From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sat Oct 1 00:00:28 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 15:00:28 +1000 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 30/09/2005, at 10:29 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 30/09/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > > >> My Tandy Pocket Computer (a PC-8) still has the same battery in it >> that >> it did when I bought it used. Granted, I don't hammer away at it >> extensively, but I've coded in BASIC programs to factor numbrers to >> their primes and various other tasks and fooled with it enough. I am >> talking about a machine as thin as a light-duty calculator which >> uses a >> coin battery. I've owned it personally for more than four years >> now and >> it STILL has the same battery. And it has retained my BASIC programs >> that long. >> > > OK, I'm impressed, I have to admit it. I just checked my Sharp PC-1211 (which is the same thing) and the battery is almost dead - the screen is hard to read but it still works. Given that I've had it for 20 years or so that's not too bad! I'll pick up a new battery later today (should last another 20 years!). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 1 02:17:54 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 03:17:54 -0400 Subject: IIfx SIMMs; Was: Re: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? References: <200509301700.j8UH0DsZ022668@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000b01c5c658$3e329050$d6781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Walther" To: Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 4:41 PM Subject: IIfx SIMMs; Was: Re: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? > >Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:55:18 -0700 > >From: Eric J Korpela > >Subject: Re: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? > > >Anyone have a datasheet for Hitachi HM511000AJP8 DRAMs? It's used in at > >least some IIfx SIMMS. > > > >What's the deal with parity on the IIfx? Is the parity bit stored off the > >SIMM? The technote > >http://developer.apple.com/technotes/hw/pdf/hw_25.pdfmentions parity, > >are there 9-chip SIMMS on the IIfx? Or is the parity stored > >on a separate RAM on the mainboard? Since your max memory is 8x(4Mx8bit bit > >SIMMS) accessed 32 bits at a time (I assume) you'd only need 1 Mbit of > >parity RAM if you do parity across 32 bits. > > You are unlikely to ever see a IIfx that actually implements parity. > It was an option for the IIfx but was very rare in practice. In > virtually all cases the IIfx uses an 8 bit 64 pin SIMM with no > parity. The presence of parity on the SIMM will not affect > operation, because on a non-parity IIfx, the SIMM pins for parity > connections are NC. > > A IIfx SIMM built for parity will have 1/8 more capacity. The extra > storage for parity is on each individual SIMM. The pinout for the > SIMMs is in "The Guide to the Macintosh Family Hardware". It's one > of those Addison Wesley books. > > I don't have that particular datasheet on hand. But if you get one, > I'd like a copy as well. I imagine it's a pretty standard 1M X 1 > DRAM chip. > > >Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:01:37 -0700 > >From: Eric J Korpela > > >I also notice that the table on page 2 of the technote contradicts the IIfx > >section. The table says you can put up to 128MB in a IIfx, but the IIfx > >section says the biggest SIMM allowed is 256kx8. > > I think you misread that somehow. The tech note states that the IIfx > does not support 256KB SIMMs. It gives examples of memory > configurations up to 32 MB, using 4 MB SIMMs, although there's a > consistent typo in the example where megabit is written instead of > megabyte. > > But the maximum memory capacity is 128 MB, using eight 16 MB SIMMs. > That was/is the maximum capacity for most of the Mac II family. The > exceptions are the original Mac II (68020 based), the Mac IIsi > (supports 16 MB SIMMs, but only has 4 slots) and the abomination with > variations known as the IIvi and IIvx. > > As far as I know, there can't be 30 pin SIMMs with capacities larger > than 16 MB, because there are only 12 address pins available and 12 X > 2 = 24 and 24 address bits yields 16M addresses. There aren't any NC > pins left to convert to additional address lines, unless one steals > the parity pins. > > Jeff Walther The IIfx uses 64 Pin SIMMs not 30's The machine CAN do 128MB From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Oct 1 02:22:42 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 07:22:42 +0000 Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <433E3942.8080402@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, I use compact fluorescents almost everywhere (I prefer the > higher apparent colour temperature). There are 2 specific places I don't > use them -- one is over the lathe (I am worried about a possible > stroboscopic effect making the machine appear stationary when it's not) > and the second is in the darkroom (they have a significantly long > afterglow after being turned off -- several minutes -- which is a right > pain there). I'd love to get properly daylight-balanced compact florries or 12V LED lamps (the ones that fit the halogen lamp bases). What about electronic ballast? That would strobe (if at all) at around 1kHz, so less flicker (which gives me a headache, the whole reason I don't use compact florries) and less chance of strobing. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Oct 1 02:38:14 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 07:38:14 +0000 Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <200509302059500833.269367EE@10.0.0.252> References: <200509302059500833.269367EE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <433E3CE6.6080503@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > OTOH, changing for the sake of changing is silly. Bob Pease did an article some time ago about replacement CFLs only made sense on applications where they're frequently used. Otherwise, the power savings doesn't yeild a sufficient return on investment. Part of my reason for looking at compact fluorescents is that I specifically want 12- or 24-volt versions that can be run from a bank of deep-cycle batteries, charged by a combination of wind turbine and solar panels. At my house up north, we lose power for a few days every winter when the 120mph winds take out power lines. If I was running lights off-grid, I wouldn't have this problem and I'd have much lower bills too. Gordon. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Oct 1 02:28:44 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 08:28:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Locking ASR32 for transport In-Reply-To: "Dwight K. Elvey" "Re: Locking ASR32 for transport" (Sep 30, 14:59) References: <200509302159.OAA06038@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <10510010828.ZM216@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 30 2005, 14:59, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I believe there are 4 holes that you can see in the bottom > plate that go to empty threaded holes in the frame of the printer. > You need to put these screws in and it will clamp the > printer unit to the frame so it doesn't wobble around > on the rubber mounts. > I'd tell you what thread but my unit came without them :( Oddly enough, I had occasion to lock down my ASR 33 last night -- it has one hole for a transit screw, at the centre near the front, between the rubber mounts. It takes a 10-32 screw about one-and-a-quarter inches long, with a flat washer. The manual says that when originally shipped, there were six screws securing the typing unit and base to the pallet, but only that one needs to be retained for future transit. Four other holes are used to secure the base to the stand. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Oct 1 02:40:36 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 07:40:36 +0000 Subject: Linux Floppy Install (Re: YATYRD) In-Reply-To: <433DC88D.2070007@mdrconsult.com> References: <200509300328.j8U3Scht010006@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433DB760.2040900@seefried.com> <433DC88D.2070007@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <433E3D74.4030203@gjcp.net> Doc Shipley wrote: > Yep. The .99 kernel wo9uld have been SLS or a very early slackware - > v3.3 had a v2.0 kernel. The base OS was only 15-20 disks, but I had no > UNIX experience at all, and I had no clue how to make the box dial up > amnd mount the Slackware archive as an NFS filesystem to do the rest of > the install online. Gosh. I'd forgotten about that. Or repressed it, possibly. Gordon. From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Oct 1 02:32:11 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 07:32:11 +0000 Subject: Flaky mic in TDD built in phone coupler - sources? Message-ID: <20051001112510.CNQL26102.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> This is round 5/16" dia mic with felt screen stuck over the small opening. Now mic working intermittently and had to tap even bang on it to wake up. Now today, I'm planning to combine my mic search with downtown shopping, will these mic robbed from cheap headphone with mic with 1/8" jack work? Cheers, Wizard From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 07:07:25 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 08:07:25 -0400 Subject: Linux Floppy Install (Re: YATYRD) In-Reply-To: <433DB760.2040900@seefried.com> References: <200509300328.j8U3Scht010006@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433DB760.2040900@seefried.com> Message-ID: On 9/30/05, Ken Seefried wrote: > From: Doc Shipley > > > IIRC, Slack v3.3 took 54 1.44MB disks. > > 54 floppies? Wow...you've got more patience than me. I did it *once*... after that, I loaded the install images on a DOS partition and did a partition-to-partition install (UMSDOS for those that remember). Mind you, I downloaded 100% of it at 2400 baud. This was on my first-ever PC, an AMD 386-DX/40 that I bought in April, 1992, at the Dayton Hamfest for around $250 for the board and CPU and another $250 for 4MB of RAM. I wasn't able to install Linux for about a year, until Slackware added native SCSI support (coming from an Amiga and Mac background, I only owned SCSI disks). I want to say it was kernel version 0.95 when that happened - all more than 10 years ago, of course. My little brother started with Slackware and runs it to this day. -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 1 07:40:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 05:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Zilog Development System available... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050930200858.04e07098@mail> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Sep 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 05:16 PM 9/30/2005, you wrote: > >I just examined a "Zilog Z80 Microcomputer System", Model 05-6002-05 (MCZ 1/80 > >60K), Serial Number 744 and an associated terminal, > > Mine's a model 05-1014-00. Back in 1997 and 2000, I think they were > mentioned on the list. Fritz Chwolka, Christian Fandt and Joe Rigdon > might still have one. I've got the RIO operating system disks for mine. > I've rarely used it. If someone else wants one, we can work something out. I have one too, but don't have the model number on-hand. > Do these have a place in history? Somewhat. They are certainly interesting in that they are Z80 development systems made by Zilog, kind of the equivalent of the Intel MCS and MDS series of machines. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 1 10:40:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 16:40:18 +0100 Subject: identifying PC Simms In-Reply-To: <200509301457510366.25480160@10.0.0.252> References: <200509291700.j8TH0cVt099376@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433D4A85.2000508@yahoo.co.uk> <200509301457510366.25480160@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <433EADE2.8010408@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>Isn't that the other way around? Nearly all PCs I've come across don't >>care about parity, but the rest of the world always seemed to make use >>of it. > > Nope, PC's right up through the PS/2 used NMI (int 2) to > memory parity and bus errors, as well as 80x87 exceptions. Interesting. I do recall the real IBM hardware using parity, I've obviously misremembered the parity situation during the days of clones and 30 pin SIMMs though! My impression was always that Mac hardware was better designed and less kludgy, so it seems a little surprising that they'd throw away the need for parity whilst the "make it as cheap as possible" PC manufacturers kept it. cheers J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 1 10:53:48 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 16:53:48 +0100 Subject: Linux Floppy Install (Re: YATYRD) In-Reply-To: References: <200509300328.j8U3Scht010006@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433DB760.2040900@seefried.com> Message-ID: <433EB10C.6080905@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>54 floppies? Wow...you've got more patience than me. > > > I did it *once*... after that, I loaded the install images on a DOS > partition and did a partition-to-partition install (UMSDOS for those > that remember). For clarity, isn't UMSDOS the code which let you run linux from a FAT filesystem - nothing to do with doing an install to an ext2 Linux partition and then booting from there. Install from a FAT source was added pretty early on ISTR, with UMSDOS coming much later (I've never tried the latter) Partitioning used to be something on an art I recall; I don't think there was support for swap files (as opposed to partitions) back then, so getting all the sizes right on the disk space available (and not trashing your DOS partitions in the process) was something of an art! > Mind you, I downloaded 100% of it at 2400 baud. Youch! Actually, not much has changed given how many CDs modern Linux distros take up :) (still takes a couple of overnight runs to grab everything, and of course there are ISP bandwidth caps to worry about now too) > I wasn't able to install Linux for about > a year, until Slackware added native SCSI support (coming from an > Amiga and Mac background, I only owned SCSI disks). Heh... Adaptec 1542 or something? My first foray into SCSI (and I've stuck with it ever since) was in hooking up the SCSI disks from my NCR Tower to the SCSI interface on the Linux PC's PAS soundcard and hacking round the root password from there... > My little brother started with Slackware and runs it to this day. I went the Redhat route for a couple of years (I got lazy!), but otherwise have been purely SLS followed by Slackware since '93 / '94. Someday I'll throw a 1993-ish vintage PC together and stick SLS on it for giggles I think... (I have *no* idea why I'd really want to do that) Dammit, back then computing used to be fun! cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 1 10:58:47 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 16:58:47 +0100 Subject: Pricing (Was: Re: PalmOS no more? :() In-Reply-To: References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> <20050929205843.00003299@brass> <575131af0509300632od34dbc0s@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <433EB237.8070901@yahoo.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: > The interesting thing here is, both the Amiga and the Atari were US > computers. Yet, if anything, they were more popular in Europe, > especially in the UK and Germany (today most anything for either > platform tends to come out of one of these two countries). OK, when did the ST and the A500 hit the markets? Does anyone have pricing for the machines in both Europe and the US at that time, along with prices for a typical-spec PC and a typical-spec Mac? It'd be interesting to see how prices in the two regions compared and may have affected popularity of the various machines. (At least in the UK, models of Amiga other than the A500 seemed pretty rare - not sure if that was true elsewhere in Europe or not) cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 1 11:23:37 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 09:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pricing (Was: Re: PalmOS no more? :() In-Reply-To: <433EB237.8070901@yahoo.co.uk> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> <20050929205843.00003299@brass> <575131af0509300632od34dbc0s@mail.gmail.com> <433EB237.8070901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051001092131.H70144@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 1 Oct 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > OK, when did the ST and the A500 hit the markets? The Amiga 1000 came out in 1986. The 500 was LATER. There had been a LOT of people and technology moving back and forth between Commodore and Atari. It has been claimed that the ST was originally a Commodore project, and the Amiga was originally an Atari project! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 1 12:00:52 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 10:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCjr (Was Re: IBM PC hacking) In-Reply-To: <200509302055070351.268F14A3@10.0.0.252> References: <200509302055070351.268F14A3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051001095942.F70144@shell.lmi.net> > >IIRC, the TechRef for the 10MByte controller contains a schematic with 3 > >chips simply labelled LSI A, LSI B and LSI C. It was fairly obvious from > >the piuout that one of this was nothing other than a Z80 processor. I > >think one of the others was something standard too. On Fri, 30 Sep 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Probably so, but I never substituted a "stock" Z80 to see if there was > something different about the IBM version. OTOH, the "clone" > controllers like Xebec certainly used the Z80. The XT HD controller was a relabelled Xebec. AT switched to WD. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 1 12:25:10 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 10:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <433E3CE6.6080503@gjcp.net> References: <200509302059500833.269367EE@10.0.0.252> <433E3CE6.6080503@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20051001101755.H70144@shell.lmi.net> > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > OTOH, changing for the sake of changing is silly. Bob Pease did an > > article some time ago about replacement CFLs only made sense on > > applications where they're frequently used. Otherwise, the power > > savings doesn't yeild a sufficient return on investment. That "Cost/Benefit" analysis would have to take into account the changes in pricing of CFLs. If you're paying $20 each, you may not ever get back sufficient return on investment. BUT,... If you're paying $1 each for them, the ROI is substantial. On Sat, 1 Oct 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Part of my reason for looking at compact fluorescents is that I > specifically want 12- or 24-volt versions that can be run from a bank of > deep-cycle batteries, charged by a combination of wind turbine and solar > panels. Howzbout LED lights? (where spectral characteristics are non-critical) Those are happy with low voltage. Last time that I tried to get 12V flourescents was 25 years ago. Hopefully they have improved the quality since then! OB_SUBJECT_LINE: does anybody make a USB powered CFL? :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 1 12:39:47 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 10:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Flaky mic in TDD built in phone coupler - sources? In-Reply-To: <20051001112510.CNQL26102.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20051001112510.CNQL26102.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <20051001103818.H70144@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > This is round 5/16" dia mic with felt screen stuck over the small > opening. > Now mic working intermittently and had to tap even bang on it to > wake up. What kind of mike is it? Some types are prone to "carbon granule clumping", and need to get shaken up and beaten on occasionally. > Now today, I'm planning to combine my mic search with downtown > shopping, will these mic robbed from cheap headphone with mic with > 1/8" jack work? What's the impedance? From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Oct 1 15:14:07 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 20:14:07 +0000 Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <20051001101755.H70144@shell.lmi.net> References: <200509302059500833.269367EE@10.0.0.252> <433E3CE6.6080503@gjcp.net> <20051001101755.H70144@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <433EEE0F.4090804@gjcp.net> Fred Cisin wrote: 1 Oct 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >>Part of my reason for looking at compact fluorescents is that I >>specifically want 12- or 24-volt versions that can be run from a bank of >>deep-cycle batteries, charged by a combination of wind turbine and solar >>panels. > > > Howzbout LED lights? (where spectral characteristics are non-critical) > Those are happy with low voltage. Yes. They are a bit blue, though. > Last time that I tried to get 12V flourescents was 25 years ago. > Hopefully they have improved the quality since then! You can get ones that are pretty much just ordinary compact fluorescents that run off 12v, not at all like the old "caravan" fluorescents. Gordon. From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Oct 1 12:14:40 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 17:14:40 +0000 Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <433EEE0F.4090804@gjcp.net> References: <20051001101755.H70144@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20051001210738.NPWZ21470.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > > > > Howzbout LED lights? (where spectral characteristics are non-critical) > > Those are happy with low voltage. > > Yes. They are a bit blue, though. With care you can find very nice white and even you can find one with bit warmer side. Luxeon star, and many others. Cheers, Wizard From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Sat Oct 1 03:21:42 2005 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 10:21:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Zilog Development System available... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050930184431.18cf0f84@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1ELcco-13AJay0@fwd27.sul.t-online.de> On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:44:31, Joe R. wrote: >Lyle, > > By all means grab it! They're very rare. I used to have one but gave it >to Mike Haas. I think there's still one more buried now at the warehouse. I >think I have a brochure for one somewhere to. Also I think one of the old Yes - someone should give the zilog a new home. I had one but now it has place in www.computermuseum-muenchen.de http://www.computermuseum-muenchen.de/computer/misc/zilogmcz105.html http://www.computermuseum-muenchen.de/computer/misc/zilogmcz130.html documents can be found here. http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/zilog/zds/info.html I have no OS available as tmy old system I gabe to munich has hard-sectored 8" floppy disks and I wasnrt able to get some of them. Mit freundlichen Gruessen Fritz Chwolka From jeff.sult at ins.com Sat Oct 1 09:28:15 2005 From: jeff.sult at ins.com (Jeff Sult) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 07:28:15 -0700 Subject: DTC MicroFile Message-ID: <001201c5c694$5d140620$0400a8c0@jeff> Brain, I used to work on the micro file from a field service perspective. Jeff From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 1 11:00:53 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 09:00:53 -0700 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510010900530828.29278B0B@10.0.0.252> On 10/1/2005 at 12:01 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >I've heard stories of HP Voyager series calculators (10C, 11C, 12C, 15C, >16C) running for 15 years or more on the same set of 3 LR44 button cells. >And being used fairly hard in that time. I replaced the original cells on the 16C sitting right in front of me in 1989, right around the time of the Loma Prieta quake. Not because it needed it, but because I was nervous about having them go out after so many years of use. I haven't bothered since and the 16C keeps chugging along. OTOH, the batteries in the TI Programmer that the 16C replaced would run down in less than a month of use. Too bad HP doesn't still make the 16C--it was one of the few really good programmer's calculators. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 1 11:46:54 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 09:46:54 -0700 Subject: PC Parity, was identifying PC Simms In-Reply-To: <20050930195806.00006b7e@brass> References: <200509291700.j8TH0cVt099376@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433D4A85.2000508@yahoo.co.uk> <20050930193534.00001d1c@brass> <20050930195806.00006b7e@brass> Message-ID: <200510010946540498.2951AAE8@10.0.0.252> Parity actually made a bit of sense before the adoption of the SIMM/SIP memory module. There were a couple of diagnostic tools that would draw a graphical representation of the memory array and point to the failing chip. Parity detection, at least in theory, allowed quick detection of the failing bank before much data became corrupted. But it was far from a complete solution--there were too many weak links in the chain. Hard disk controllers, for example never used parity checking on their on-board buffers. And the bus to the adapter cards wasn't parity checked. Back in the mid 80's, a friend and I were tasked with determining if the commodity PC was suitable for critical control applications. There were too many points of vulnerability in the PC design, so we worked out a majority-polled 3 PC setup connected by a high-speed redundant serial link. We had hot-swapping and dynamic resyncing capabilities. As a concept model it was pretty impressive to watch operate, but never really went anywhere. And, as you might imagine, performance wasn't wonderful. As someone's already mentioned, however, it's too bad that the socketed positions on the PC used low-quality sockets that really couldn't take too many insertions before developing problems of their own. I seem to recall some do-it-yourself SIMMs made in the 80's by Jameco or JDR that provided the "glue" on a socketed PC board. You could plug in your own DIP memory chips to make a SIMM. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 1 11:56:54 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 09:56:54 -0700 Subject: Pricing (Was: Re: PalmOS no more? :() In-Reply-To: <20051001092131.H70144@shell.lmi.net> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> <20050929205843.00003299@brass> <575131af0509300632od34dbc0s@mail.gmail.com> <433EB237.8070901@yahoo.co.uk> <20051001092131.H70144@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510010956540571.295AD2F1@10.0.0.252> On 10/1/2005 at 9:23 AM Fred Cisin wrote: >There had been a LOT of people and technology moving back and forth >between Commodore and Atari. It has been claimed that the ST was >originally a Commodore project, and the Amiga was originally an Atari >project! I remember when Atari had some offices by the CDC building in Moffett Industrial Park. CDC was in the middle of a reorganization then and personnel cuts were numerous. Atari in its help-wanted ads actually stated something to the effect of "no mainframe programmers need apply". A friend who was turned down by Atari went on to work on the programming for Commodore's scientific calculator. I remember her showing me the prototype--basically a plywood chassis with a keyboard, display, some PC cards and a rat's nest of wires... Does anyone still have a Sinclair or Commodore digital watch? I built one of the do-it-yourself Sinclair digitals, but it failed within a couple of months. My wife still has a couple of National Semi watches that have long since died from corrosion caused by perspiration--and I suspect that's what did in my Sinclair. I was cleaning out an old filing cabinet and came across a section from the Mercury News advertising the Commodore watch for $16.95 at Mr. Calculator--your choice, white or yellow with leatherette strap. Mr. Calculator would keep the watch adjusted free of charge for life. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 1 12:22:08 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 10:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <433DFA1C.9020002@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051001172208.26037.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Leonard wrote: > What was special about it wasn't necessarily what it > was, but what it was > trying to be. Very interesting design choices and > direction for IBM. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) Didn't the Peanut employ some sort of video gate array that made the video memory, actually existing low in ram, appear to be @ b800:0000? I read something to that effect in "the IBM Personal Computer from the Inside Out". A gentleman I'm in contact with attempted to develop a mod for the Tandy 2000 that enabled PC compatiblity. I can understand some degree of what's being said (though not necessarily how to put it all together), but maybe my placing it here will provoke discussion. Sounds kind of sort of like what was going on with the Jr. And actually, I thought a memory parity error always generated a NMI, or at least most PC's were designed to. > I was working on a mod, never completed, for the T2K > that would make it > after the O/S was loaded, 100% PC-compatible. > Required 1 hardware chip, > and customized software. Whereupon any DOS > application would run on the T2K, > even stuff doing serial-port manipulation, direct > video-memory writes, DMA, > etc. >The one-chip mod was a PAL that monitored the address >lines from the >CPU, >when It saw an I/O instruction in 'low' address->space, it generated an >NMI (not used at all by the T2K), then the software >service routine >for NMI unwound the stack to find the offending I/O >instruction, and >re-mapped the "PC" functionality to the T2K >hardware. Coupled with a >timer-tick 'refresh' routine that copied data >from "PC video memory" to >the T2K video memory (remapping attributes, etc. as >required.) >The chip actually had 2 modes of operation -- NMI >active, as described >above, and 'NMI inactive', where it pretty much did >nothing -- except >listen for the 'magic words' that made it go active, >that is. :) This >enable/disable mode switching was necessary, to >allow "T2K DOS" >internals >(and/or the 'sofware service routine) to access the >T2K hardware >directly. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Sat Oct 1 13:10:16 2005 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 13:10:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cleaning Copper Contacts? In-Reply-To: <091201c5ba6b$460f9320$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Sep 15, 2005 10:03:54 PM Message-ID: <200510011810.j91IAHt1023468@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Hey guys, any advice apperciated. Recently picked up an Odyssey game system, and the contacts on the game cards (basicly big jumpers) that came with it appear to have begun corroding and forming greenish and white deposits. My concern is I don't want to use any sort of cleaner that will harm whatever material the surrounding pcb is made of (as it appears to be made out of an older, thicker material than most modern PCB's I see). Thanks! Marty P.S. - I also have another side project I'm working on. Does anyone have any suggestions on what grain sandpaper to use for sanding plastic consumer device cases (old game consoles, personal computers) for painting/restoring? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 1 14:26:54 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 12:26:54 -0700 Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <20051001101755.H70144@shell.lmi.net> References: <200509302059500833.269367EE@10.0.0.252> <433E3CE6.6080503@gjcp.net> <20051001101755.H70144@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510011226540835.29E42D7F@10.0.0.252> On 10/1/2005 at 10:25 AM Fred Cisin wrote: >If you're paying $1 each for them, the ROI is substantial. Again, it depends on the application. I've got a 60w incandescent installed in the utility closet that holds my A/C, pressure tank and water heater. It sees maybe an hour of use per year (if that). I won't live long enough to see any ROI for that $1 spent. And how long will it be before something better (i.e. more efficient) comes by to replace it? Technology is really the joker in the deck. A neighbor built his large house in 1992, taking adavantage of a $2K energy credit to use fluorescent fixtures for every one of his 60 or so recessed lighting "cans". This was before solid-state ballasts had become widespread, so he's got iron-core ballasts in all of the fixtures. Lots of them buzz like crazy now--since these fixtures were installed before the sheetrock, with the ballast external to the can, replacement is involved and costly. All in all, probably a negative ROI if he can't live with the buzz. He would have been much better off installing conventional fixtures and relamping when screw-in CFL's reached a good price point--the screw-ins probably exhibit better efficiency than his existing setup, too. >OB_SUBJECT_LINE: does anybody make a USB powered CFL? :-) This looks like one: http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-new-High-quality-USB-desk-Lamp-light-4-Laptop-PC_W0QQitemZ5279451836QQcategoryZ31534QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem "Gentle ray, bright, without frequency change, benefit from preventing eyesight. By using lowest work vnltages: 5v, safety & reliability High effciency, saving energy. It makes 20 times long life than normal daylight by placing exeed ages cold light tube. The lamp which not only can form a comlete set with usb computer soket, but also can directly set with city power supply. Connect lampshade & lamp base in soft tube. economic, beauty. Convenience on easy handle light direction." From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 1 14:31:41 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 12:31:41 -0700 Subject: PCjr (Was Re: IBM PC hacking) In-Reply-To: <20051001095942.F70144@shell.lmi.net> References: <200509302055070351.268F14A3@10.0.0.252> <20051001095942.F70144@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510011231410020.29E88B64@10.0.0.252> On 10/1/2005 at 10:00 AM Fred Cisin wrote: >The XT HD controller was a relabelled Xebec. I've no doubt that Xebec made the 10 and 20 MB adapters for IBM (even the silk screen legends correspond to Xebec convention). But does the IBM 10 MB adapter correspond to a standard Xebec part, or were there changes incorporated into it (beyond the BIOS signatures, that is)? My 10 MB Xebec adapter built in early '85 has a different layout from either 10 MB or 20 MB IBM parts. FWIW, the Z80A on the 20MB adapter is so labeled in the IBM O&A reference manual. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 1 16:32:39 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 14:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <200510010900530828.29278B0B@10.0.0.252> References: <200510010900530828.29278B0B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051001143036.M70144@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 1 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > along. OTOH, the batteries in the TI Programmer that the 16C replaced > would run down in less than a month of use. Which model of the TI Programmer? I used to get a lot less than that from the batteries in the LED model, and a lot more than that from the LCD model. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 15:18:05 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 16:18:05 -0400 Subject: CP/M Archive - Need disk images! In-Reply-To: <20051001103818.H70144@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Alright, I suppose this is the proper way to do this =] Anyone who dosn't know, I'm hoping to run up a CP/M archive. As with all endevours of this sort, I'm in need of disk images! Put 'em online, email 'em to me, do whatever! Get them to me, Send minor descriptions, tell me what machines they were made for, And most importantly, do include the disk image :) Send away, and make me fill Jay's harddrive until it explodes =] From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 15:19:18 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 16:19:18 -0400 Subject: Kaypro boot disk. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/21/05 7:14 PM, "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote: > > Perhaps because you haven't advertised this well enough. Not many people > are going to respond to a message entitled "Re: Kaypro boot disk." by > sending you disk images ;) > > I suggest a formal campaign to solicit system disk images, with e-mail > messages, usenet postings, etc. I'll even post a news item to the front > page of the Vintage Computer Festival website if you'll send me details of > the project and the plan. You might also get Evan Koblentz to add a note > to his next Computer Collector Newsletter. Poke me with information about what all you can do, and help me work with the whole 'formal' thing :) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 1 15:30:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 21:30:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <200510010057.j910vink011597@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Sep 30, 5 08:57:44 pm Message-ID: > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > >I've heard stories of HP Voyager series calculators (10C, 11C, 12C, 15C, > >16C) running for 15 years or more on the same set of 3 LR44 button cells. > >And being used fairly hard in that time. > > I never get more than 2-3 year out of my 16C... Maybe I'm using the > wrong batteries? :-) > > (if the damn thing ever dies I may freak out and need detox. I just can't > live without my 11c and 16c. I use them *every* day.) I wish I could afford a 16C -- they're truely beautiful machines, and probably the best handheld ever for bit-twiddling... Anyway, I have repaired a couple. AFAIK all 16C used the 2-chip circuit, the smaller chip being a Nut CPU (similar, but not identical, to the one called, of course, R2D2. The CPU is the same in all Voyager machines of that design (the 12C, in particular, was produced for so long that it went through many different designs), the R2D2 is unique to the 16C. Early machines hat the chips and a few passives (clock LC tank circuit, memory-maintaing capacitor) on a flexible PCB that was clampled to the LCD display. That module comes out of the case, it's connected to the convnetional PCB used for the keyboard by a zebrastrip. The second version was, AFAIK, electrically the same, but had everything on one normal PCB heat-staked to the top caes. Fortunately the chips are on the side you can see. I;ve had a fair amount of trouble with dry joints in Voyagers. I've got a couple going again just be resoldering everything. Tedious, but not too difficult. Alas the only serious failure I had was a dead R2D2 chip, and as I menitoned, that is specific to the particular type of machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 1 15:36:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 21:36:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCjr (Was Re: IBM PC hacking) In-Reply-To: <20050930200258.00004860@brass> from "Scott Stevens" at Sep 30, 5 08:02:58 pm Message-ID: > > IIRC, the TechRef for the 10MByte controller contains a schematic with > 3 > > chips simply labelled LSI A, LSI B and LSI C. It was fairly obvious > from > > the piuout that one of this was nothing other than a Z80 processor. I > > think one of the others was something standard too. > > > Is that the Xebec controller? (can't remember if that's who IBM got the I beleive it is a Xebec. I also have found the same custom hard disk controller chip (the chip that's not the Z80 or the other standard one) on one of the SASI-ST506 Xebec bridgeboards. In fact I repaired such a bridgeboard with a chip taken from an old XT hard disk controller (flame me if you like, the machine the bridgeboard went in was more interesting to me than an IBM PC/XT). I've never tried a Z80 chip on the IBM PC/XT hard disk controller card, so it's possible there's something odd about it. But actually I doubt Xebec would have got a custom-microcoded Z80 processor made for that board, or anything like that (IBM probably _could_ have done. but it's not AFAIK an IBM design). Certainly if that chip failed on one of my XT controllers I'd fit a Z80A and see what happened. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 1 15:48:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 21:48:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: from "Huw Davies" at Oct 1, 5 03:00:28 pm Message-ID: > I just checked my Sharp PC-1211 (which is the same thing) and the > battery is almost dead - the screen is hard to read but it still > works. Given that I've had it for 20 years or so that's not too bad! > > I'll pick up a new battery later today (should last another 20 years!). I've been told (not checked it myself) that the original battery for the PC1211/Radio Shack PC1 was 4 mercury cells in series, giving 5.4V or so. 4 alkaline cells give 6V, and the machine doesn't work correctly at that higher voltage (it doesn't do any damage though). On the other hand _3_ alkaline cells are rumoured to work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 1 15:58:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 21:58:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Flaky mic in TDD built in phone coupler - sources? In-Reply-To: <20051001103818.H70144@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 1, 5 10:39:47 am Message-ID: > > On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > > This is round 5/16" dia mic with felt screen stuck over the small > > opening. > > Now mic working intermittently and had to tap even bang on it to > > wake up. > > What kind of mike is it? I assumed from the description and use that it was an electret condenser microphone. > Some types are prone to "carbon granule clumping", and need to get shaken > up and beaten on occasionally. An old joke in the UK was to convince the chap at the other end of a phone conversation to sing loadly into the mouthpieces to free up the carbon granules. Didn't do a darn thing, actually, but you could get idiots to start singing. One of my mad[1] friends is heavily into all sorts of old technology. I was chatting to him on the 'phone one time, and his voice started to become indistinct. I asked him to sing into the phone. He, of course, knew the joke. I head a few bangs, and then everything was fine again. He'd freed up the carbon granules in his microphone. [1] Actually, all my freinds are mad... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 1 16:02:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 22:02:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Linux Floppy Install (Re: YATYRD) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 1, 5 08:07:25 am Message-ID: > > On 9/30/05, Ken Seefried wrote: > > From: Doc Shipley > > > > > IIRC, Slack v3.3 took 54 1.44MB disks. > > > > 54 floppies? Wow...you've got more patience than me. > > I did it *once*... after that, I loaded the install images on a DOS > partition and did a partition-to-partition install (UMSDOS for those > that remember). Mind you, I downloaded 100% of it at 2400 baud. My linux installation procedure (not quite on-topic here yet) was a little less crazy. I have a CD-ROM drive, but it's an obscure Philips one (chosen because, amazingly, I have a service manual for it), and Linux doesn't support it. I had a linux CD. I made the boot and root floppies from it, booted linux, partitioned the hard disk to have a couple of linux filesystems, a swap space, and, IIRC, 3 32Mbyte MS-DOS partitions (I needed those for my old MS-DOS stuff). Bootled MS-DOS, copied the linux files from the CD-ROM onto the MS-DOS filesystems, as much as would fit. Rebooted linux, mounted the MS-DOS filesystems, copied the files over onto the linux filesystem. Repeated about 5 times to get everything from the CD-ROM to the hard disk (including, of course, all the sources). FInally, copied the MS-DOS stuff onto said MS-DOS filesystems. -tony From cannings at earthlink.net Sat Oct 1 20:01:55 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 18:01:55 -0700 Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed References: <00c301c5bd90$70803d80$39406b43@66067007><000501c5bf48$33d5b040$6401a8c0@hal9000> <003f01c5bf76$a11548e0$3d406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <000701c5c6ec$e2c01db0$6401a8c0@hal9000> My recommendation would be to first contact Robert at: rdoerr at bizserve.com He has the largest collection ( I know about ) of Hero Jr. parts, panels , manuals, cartridges, ROMs, etc. It would save you $$$$ in shipping to have it all shipped at once. If this doesn't work out, contact me back and I'll get you the panel and mounting studs you need. We can do this offline so we don't bore these good folks here ... Best regards, Steven C. ( adopted parent of many orphaned Hero robots... ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 6:07 AM Subject: Re: Hero-Jr Parts Needed > Right now I need the back cover panel, a set of the pins that hold the > covers, a remote, copy of a manual, and cartridges. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Canning" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:35 AM > Subject: Re: Hero-Jr Parts Needed > > > > Yes. What do you need ? > > > > regards, Steven C. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Keys" > > To: "cctalk at classiccmp" > > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 8:07 PM > > Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed > > > > > >> Does anyone on the list have some spare Hero-Jr parts? > >> > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 1 17:24:21 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 15:24:21 -0700 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20051001143036.M70144@shell.lmi.net> References: <200510010900530828.29278B0B@10.0.0.252> <20051001143036.M70144@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510011524210511.2A86A1A8@10.0.0.252> On 10/1/2005 at 2:32 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >On Sat, 1 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> along. OTOH, the batteries in the TI Programmer that the 16C replaced >> would run down in less than a month of use. > >Which model of the TI Programmer? >I used to get a lot less than that from the batteries in the LED model, >and a lot more than that from the LCD model. It was the LED model--actually had a "Made in USA" legend on the back of the case. Like many TI calculators of the same era, it developed problems with the keyboard (I seem to remember a fix being circulated that involved soaking the whole shebang in distilled water). The small LED display wasn't multiplexed at a particularly high frequency, so it was annoying for me to read. As soon as HP announced the 16C, I junked the fool thing. Here's a question for the Voyager experts. The aluminum bezel on my 16C is beginning to separate from the case at one corner. Can the bezel be safely removed, cleaned and reglued without messing things up? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 1 17:28:38 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 15:28:38 -0700 Subject: Cleaning Copper Contacts? In-Reply-To: <200510011810.j91IAHt1023468@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200510011810.j91IAHt1023468@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <200510011528380583.2A8A8DD5@10.0.0.252> On 10/1/2005 at 1:10 PM Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: >My concern is I don't want to use any sort of cleaner that will harm >whatever material the surrounding pcb is made of (as it appears to be made >out of an older, thicker material than most modern PCB's I see). If the underlying material is copper, why not one of the ion-exchange instant silverplate solutions like Cool-Amp or Caswell Silverplater? They deposit a very (one molecule) thin layer of silver that might do the trick for a restoration. Caswell also markets brush-plating electrolytic silver (and nickel, gold and a whole bunch of other metals) kits if you'd like something more substantial.. (http://www.caswellplating.com). Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Oct 2 03:38:01 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 08:38:01 +0000 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <433F9C69.7000709@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>I just checked my Sharp PC-1211 (which is the same thing) and the >>battery is almost dead - the screen is hard to read but it still >>works. Given that I've had it for 20 years or so that's not too bad! >> >>I'll pick up a new battery later today (should last another 20 years!). > > > I've been told (not checked it myself) that the original battery for the > PC1211/Radio Shack PC1 was 4 mercury cells in series, giving 5.4V or so. > 4 alkaline cells give 6V, and the machine doesn't work correctly at that > higher voltage (it doesn't do any damage though). On the other hand _3_ > alkaline cells are rumoured to work. I do remember, in the dim distant mists of 1991 (probably caused by all the McEwens 80/- at RGIT student union bar prices) a whole run of Amstrad 2086 and similar models coming back to us (Amstrad dealer in Aberdeen where I whiled away the time I was supposed to be in classes I didn't like). Eventually we discovered that if you put alkaline HP7 batteries (AA size) in the battery compartment, the clock wouldn't work and the machine wouldn't boot. Replacing them with el-cheapo zinc-carbon batteries brought the machine to life. The only difference that I could find was that the alkalines had a cell voltage of around 1.65-1.7 volts, feeding the clock with something nearer to 7 volts. I have no idea why this upset it, but the battery voltage circuit reported this as flat batteries. Gordon. From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Oct 2 06:06:44 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 07:06:44 -0400 Subject: CP/M Archive - Need disk images! Message-ID: <20051002110643.NOMR10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> > Anyone who dosn't know, I'm hoping to run up a CP/M archive. >As with all endevours of this sort, I'm in need of disk images! > > Put 'em online, email 'em to me, do whatever! Get them to me, >Send minor descriptions, tell me what machines they were made for, >And most importantly, do include the disk image :) I have quite a few system disk images posted on my site, including many CP/M disks for various systems. You can get them directly from my site, which is: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html Near the bottom of the page, you will find "Download Disks/Software images" New images are being added on an ongoing basis, so check back in from time to time. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From Mark at Misty.com Sun Oct 2 12:34:39 2005 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 13:34:39 -0400 Subject: Franklin ACE-1000s available in PA Message-ID: <20051002173439.GA26101@lucky.misty.com> Hi, I have a pair of Franklin ACE-1000 (Apple-II clones). One is extremely clean, and the other is very beat up and dirty. Both appear complete and I'd guess that at least the clean one probably works, but I have no cards, drives, cables, or software for these. I'd rather not deal with ebay or shipping these, so they are available to whoever wants to get them. Ideally I'd like to get some Apple-II/IIe software out of the deal for an Apple-IIe I'm trying to get running, but I don't want any money, just do not want to throw these out. I live in Plymouth Meeting, and work near West Chester, PA. USA Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) voice: 215-591-3695 http://www.misty.com/ http://mail-cleaner.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 2 11:57:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 17:57:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <200510011524210511.2A86A1A8@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 1, 5 03:24:21 pm Message-ID: > Here's a question for the Voyager experts. The aluminum bezel on my > 16C is beginning to separate from the case at one corner. Can the bezel > be safely removed, cleaned and reglued without messing things up? Yes, but there's a gotcha. There is no problem in the display coming apart if its bezel is removed, or the keyboard falling to bits if you remove its bexel. But there are a couple of compression springs -- one for the display bezel and one for the keyboard bezel -- that electrically connect them to the metal plate on the back to form an elextrostatic screen. If you remove either bezel you want to make sure you don't lose the spring. It might be easier (assuming you're happy working on devices containing CMOS chips) to remove the bottom cover first (there are 4 screws under the feet), take out the 2 springs (they fit in holes in the top case moulding) then remvoe and re-stick the bezel. I'd use contact adhesive to stick it on, I think. The stuff you apply to each surface, let it dry, then press together. Keep it off the display itself! And of course make sure you don't crease the bezel when taking it off. You will not remove such creases. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 2 12:24:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:24:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <433F9C69.7000709@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Oct 2, 5 08:38:01 am Message-ID: > The only difference that I could find was that the alkalines had a cell > voltage of around 1.65-1.7 volts, feeding the clock with something > nearer to 7 volts. I have no idea why this upset it, but the battery > voltage circuit reported this as flat batteries. I actually have a PC2086 serice manual somewhere.(Amstrad service manuals of that date were just parts lists and schematics, of course.) From what I remember there's noting odd about the circuitry, though. Did you try a couple of silicon diodes in series, in series with the +ve battery lead? That might have cured it. I have an objection to zinc-carbon cells due to their antisocial habit of leaking, alkaline cells are much better house-trained, so I prefer to use those where possible. -tony From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Oct 2 14:00:48 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 15:00:48 -0400 Subject: Cleaning Copper Contacts? In-Reply-To: <200510021702.j92H25qb044402@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200510021901.j92J0fYG002227@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> On cleaning "copper" contacts (which may be gold plated): I would first try using a "magic rub" pencil eraser, rubbing it over the contacts. It is very important to use this specific brand, "Magic Rub", it's non-abrasive. These are popular and common and this brand of eraser is carried at all office supply stores (OfficeMax, Staples, Office Depot, etc.) On sanding plastic, DON'T. Instead use automotive rubbing or polishing compound and rub/buff with a soft cloth. (if you are going to paint, rubbing compound is the coarser product). It's possible these will leave a finish so smooth that you no longer need/want to paint. From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 14:44:49 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 20:44:49 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a640509251630b893394@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640510021244p28d0d151p@mail.gmail.com> > 480Z machines are hard to find now, although there' a plastic-cased one > on E-bay at the momnet, I think. The older metal-cased version (black > painted, like a 380Z keyboard) is, I am told. rarer. > > -tony > I missed that, but thanks for the hint. I am now the proud of owner of a 480z with colour monitor and floppy drive. There is a nimbus for sale as well, which says it comes with quite a lot of software on 5.25". I'm guessing this is either 480z or 380z. Is anyone on here bidding on it ? I think I'll try and get it for those disks. Dan From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 16:28:50 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 17:28:50 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <200510010057.j910vink011597@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200510010057.j910vink011597@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <43405112.5040705@gmail.com> Brad Parker wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >>I've heard stories of HP Voyager series calculators (10C, 11C, 12C, 15C, >>16C) running for 15 years or more on the same set of 3 LR44 button cells. >>And being used fairly hard in that time. > > > I never get more than 2-3 year out of my 16C... Maybe I'm using the > wrong batteries? :-) > > (if the damn thing ever dies I may freak out and need detox. I just can't > live without my 11c and 16c. I use them *every* day.) I would *love* to have a 16C, but I can't afford one. 8-( Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 16:37:17 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 17:37:17 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <200510010900530828.29278B0B@10.0.0.252> References: <200510010900530828.29278B0B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4340530D.4080601@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Too bad HP doesn't still make the 16C--it was one of the few really good programmer's calculators. Indeed it is. I wish I had one. I'm using a 27S for that purpose. Works pretty well. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 16:43:28 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 17:43:28 -0400 Subject: Linux Floppy Install (Re: YATYRD) In-Reply-To: <433EB10C.6080905@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200509300328.j8U3Scht010006@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433DB760.2040900@seefried.com> <433EB10C.6080905@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 10/1/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > For clarity, isn't UMSDOS the code which let you run linux from a FAT > filesystem - nothing to do with doing an install to an ext2 Linux > partition and then booting from there. Ah... right. > Install from a FAT source was added pretty early on ISTR, with > UMSDOS coming much later (I've never tried the latter) Installing from a FAT partition did come early, thankfully. Nobody could afford the $5000+ for a CD burner at the time, so it was FAT partition install, floppy install, or commercial CD install, which was a pain if you wanted to keep up on the latest developments. > Partitioning used to be something on an art I recall; I don't think > there was support for swap files (as opposed to partitions) There was not... it was swap partition or nothing. I don't recall things being too difficult, though. It was the same thing that we'd been doing with UNIX for years - take a multiple-hundred meg disk and slice it up for the root partition, /usr , maybe /var, and so on. > > I wasn't able to install Linux for about a year, until Slackware added > > native SCSI support > Heh... Adaptec 1542 or something? Yep - Adaptec 1542A (then 1542C, and so on). > I went the Redhat route for a couple of years (I got lazy!) I did Slackware at home, Yggdrasil at work (1995), then switched to RedHat purely because it was what US businesses blessed as an acceptable distro. At work now, we are 100% RedHat for Linux (server and desktop), plus a bit of Mac and (thankfully) very little Windows (mostly laptops) for the user community. Ah, Academia! -ethan From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Sun Oct 2 02:47:37 2005 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 02:47:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cleaning Copper Contacts? In-Reply-To: <200510011528380583.2A8A8DD5@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 01, 2005 03:28:38 PM Message-ID: <200510020747.j927lcPM021525@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> >>My concern is I don't want to use any sort of cleaner that will harm >>whatever material the surrounding pcb is made of (as it appears to be made >>out of an older, thicker material than most modern PCB's I see). > >If the underlying material is copper, why not one of the ion-exchange instant silverplate solutions like Cool-Amp or Caswell Silverplater? They deposit a very (one molecule) thin layer of silver that might do the trick for a restoration. Caswell also m arkets brush-plating electrolytic silver (and nickel, gold and a whole bunch of other metals) kits if you'd like something more substantial.. (http://www.caswellplating.com). > >Cheers, >Chuck > The exposed copper doesn't look to be underlying. Well, here's a pic of what the cart and connector normally looks like - http://www.pong-story.com/pics/odyssey/cart7.jpg http://www.pong-story.com/pics/odyssey/carts.jpg As you can see, the PCB is much thicker than a standard PCB of today. I'm assuming its made of a different material then (which is why I'm hoping people on here in to mini's and such from that period of around 1972 would be familiar). The contacts themselves are what are tarnishing and turning green, some with white deposits. Marty From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 2 15:08:21 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 13:08:21 -0700 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510021308210882.2F307D4A@10.0.0.252> On 10/2/2005 at 5:57 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >If you remove either bezel you want to make sure you don't lose the >spring. It might be easier (assuming you're happy working on devices >containing CMOS chips) to remove the bottom cover first (there are 4 >screws under the feet), take out the 2 springs (they fit in holes in the >top case moulding) then remvoe and re-stick the bezel. > >I'd use contact adhesive to stick it on, I think. The stuff you apply to >each surface, let it dry, then press together. Keep it off the display >itself! > >And of course make sure you don't crease the bezel when taking it off. >You will not remove such creases. Thanks, Tony, that's some very useful information. I was intending to use 3M Scotch 77 spray contact adhesive. Do you have any advice on the least-damaging way to free the bezel from its currently stuck-on state? I want to avoid creases, so some way to soften the existing adhesive would be very nice indeed. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 2 16:24:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 22:24:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <26c11a640510021244p28d0d151p@mail.gmail.com> from "Dan Williams" at Oct 2, 5 08:44:49 pm Message-ID: > There is a nimbus for sale as well, which says it comes with quite a > lot of software on 5.25". I'm guessing this is either 480z or 380z. Is No, a Nimbus is a much later machine, I think it was 80186-based and ran a custom version of MS-DOS. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 2 16:30:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 22:30:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <4340530D.4080601@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Oct 2, 5 05:37:17 pm Message-ID: > Indeed it is. I wish I had one. I'm using a 27S for that purpose. > Works pretty well. I could never get on with the 27S. The darn thing didn't have an ENTER key ;-) -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Oct 2 17:21:35 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 23:21:35 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000a01c5c79f$a843cbb0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Tony Duell wrote: >> There is a nimbus for sale as well, which says it comes with quite a >> lot of software on 5.25". I'm guessing this is either 480z or 380z. >> Is > > No, a Nimbus is a much later machine, I think it was 80186-based and > ran a custom version of MS-DOS. The Nimbus is indeed a 186 machine from a later era. But Dan seems to be correct - the Q&A suggests that the disks are nothing to do with the Nimbus, just some stuff that also came from RM. Plus the Nimbus has 3.5" disks, which is what probably led to the question on ebay. >From the auction: Q: What software is on 5.25. It is probably not for this machine. More likely a 480z or 380z. 02-Oct-05 A: Hi the software on 5.25 discs is: - TXED V4, ZASM Z80, BCPL for the Z80, Extended Basic V5, Wordstar V3.0, CPM operating system, SBAS, ED.com, ASM.com. Hope this helps. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 18:59:59 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 00:59:59 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a640510021244p28d0d151p@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640510021659vb2f3056j@mail.gmail.com> On 02/10/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > There is a nimbus for sale as well, which says it comes with quite a > > lot of software on 5.25". I'm guessing this is either 480z or 380z. Is > > No, a Nimbus is a much later machine, I think it was 80186-based and ran > a custom version of MS-DOS. > > -tony > Sorry wasn't making sense, I meant the disks weren't for the Nimbus. Dan From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 19:32:55 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 20:32:55 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43407C37.1090008@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>Indeed it is. I wish I had one. I'm using a 27S for that purpose. >>Works pretty well. > > > I could never get on with the 27S. The darn thing didn't have an ENTER > key ;-) > > -tony > That was a typo. It was supposed to read 28S. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 21:15:00 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 22:15:00 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <200509301600.JAA14032@floodgap.com> References: <200509301600.JAA14032@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 9/30/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The Beebs did make it here -- there are NTSC BBC units. I've seen one, but > the guy wouldn't sell it. (Darn.) I didn't get it when the company closed, but we had an NTSC BBC Micro at Software Productions in 1984. We wrote kids software for a variety of 6502 machines including the 'Beeb', and eventually supported the PC before closing our doors in 1985. -ethan From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 23:09:01 2005 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 21:09:01 -0700 Subject: Documation M1000-L manual In-Reply-To: References: <200509291700.j8TH0cVt099376@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: mike, i'm lookng thru the manual and am not finding a "two card" diagram. any more info on that? I have manual for the M1000L as you wished to find I will see how far I get scanning tonight and if I get going good it wont be a problem, as I'll get it all scanned. Jim On 9/30/05, Mike Loewen wrote: > > > Does anyone have a tech manual for the M1000-L? I've seen the docs for > the M200 and M300 on Bitsavers, but the M1000 has an extra card in (two > card board) and there are adjustment pots on it. > > Thanks for any pointers. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > From cctech at retro.co.za Mon Oct 3 00:10:08 2005 From: cctech at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 07:10:08 +0200 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <200510010055.j910tfuw028292@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510010055.j910tfuw028292@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20051003070759.04dfb670@alpha.ccii.co.za> Hi all Ben Woodelf said : >Blars Blarson wrote: > > > Are you interested in a couple of Frank Hogg Labs systems os9/68k > > systems? One 68000, one 68020. Located in Los Angeles. > >PS. Shipping to Canada is the other factor. And here I'm sitting wondering what shipping to South Africa would cost...Canada? Sheesh, you guys are right around the corner from one another *grin* W (Yea, yea, I know, it's a beeeg country...) From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Sun Oct 2 23:31:35 2005 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (Kurt Rosenfeld) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 00:31:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ibm 5028 operator station Message-ID: Dear classic computer people, Does anyone know anything about an IBM 5028? I ran across one in bad shape a couple of days ago. Photos: http://ees2cy.engr.ccny.cuny.edu/wwwa/web/hardware/ibm5028a.jpg http://ees2cy.engr.ccny.cuny.edu/wwwa/web/hardware/ibm5028b.jpg thanks, -kurt From henk.stegeman at shell.com Mon Oct 3 02:20:31 2005 From: henk.stegeman at shell.com (Stegeman, Henk HJ SITI-ITIBHW5) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 09:20:31 +0200 Subject: IBM 5028 Message-ID: <6A15E72BE8E3D44494D6BDAF3C388E0E0449F60C@rijpat-s-346.europe.shell.com> Hi Kurt, The IBM 5028 was the console of the IBM System/7. Pity it is in such a poor state. If the IBM 5028 is unrestorable and used for parts, I am very much interested in certain parts of it for my project. Please see: http://home.hccnet.nl/h.j.stegeman Regards Henk >Dear classic computer people, > >Does anyone know anything about an IBM 5028? I ran across one in bad >shape a couple of days ago. > >Photos: > http://ees2cy.engr.ccny.cuny.edu/wwwa/web/hardware/ibm5028a.jpg > http://ees2cy.engr.ccny.cuny.edu/wwwa/web/hardware/ibm5028b.jpg > >thanks, -kurt From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Oct 3 07:14:57 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:14:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: <433F9C69.7000709@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Oct 2, 5 08:38:01 am Message-ID: <32374.195.212.29.83.1128341697.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> >> The only difference that I could find was that the alkalines had a cell >> voltage of around 1.65-1.7 volts, feeding the clock with something >> nearer to 7 volts. I have no idea why this upset it, but the battery >> voltage circuit reported this as flat batteries. > > I actually have a PC2086 serice manual somewhere.(Amstrad service manuals > of that date were just parts lists and schematics, of course.) From what I > remember there's noting odd about the circuitry, though. I should stil have mine, having "liberated" them when the shop went tango uniform. No idea where, though. > Did you try a couple of silicon diodes in series, in series with the +ve > battery lead? That might have cured it. I have an objection to > zinc-carbon cells due to their antisocial habit of leaking, alkaline > cells are much better house-trained, so I prefer to use those where > possible. No, we just gave the customers a nice new packet of Panasonic Silver Seal batteries, which cured all the problems straight away. I seem to remember that it wasn't a clock battery error it came up with, but something else. Maybe a RAM test error or something - I know it was pretty odd. Gordon From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Oct 3 08:24:01 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 09:24:01 -0400 Subject: USB Stuff References: <200509291640050460.207F3EE0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <17217.12529.909025.436133@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: Tony> Hmmm.. Fromt what I rememeber, white LEDs depend on a phosphor Tony> in the package to get the white light (LED's being naturally a Tony> narrow-band device). Mostly true, but there now are white LEDs that don't use phosphors, just a well chosen combination of several LED colors that create the appearance of white -- just as your computer display does. paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 3 11:05:44 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 17:05:44 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <26c11a640510021244p28d0d151p@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640509251630b893394@mail.gmail.com> <26c11a640510021244p28d0d151p@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <434156D8.6020107@yahoo.co.uk> Dan Williams wrote: >>480Z machines are hard to find now, although there' a plastic-cased one >>on E-bay at the momnet, I think. The older metal-cased version (black >>painted, like a 380Z keyboard) is, I am told. rarer. >> >>-tony >> > > I missed that, but thanks for the hint. I am now the proud of owner of > a 480z with colour monitor and floppy drive. > > There is a nimbus for sale as well, which says it comes with quite a > lot of software on 5.25". I'm guessing this is either 480z or 380z. Is > anyone on here bidding on it ? > I think I'll try and get it for those disks. Looking at what's listed, I don't think there's anything on those disks that isn't already out there, possibly with the exception of BCPL. Oh, it's worth keeping an eye out for a Nimbus Domesday system by the way. They did exist, although I don't know of any survivors anywhere. Other than that there's nothing really special about the Nimbus hardware, it got boring after the 480Z days! (there's actually nothing special about the Domesday Nimbus, except nobody seems to remember what model of SCSI controller it needed) cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Oct 3 11:23:43 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 09:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cleaning Copper Contacts? Message-ID: <200510031623.JAA07925@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I recommend removing the oxides as non-abrasively as you can. Try the eraser trick but for stubborn oxides, I often use a stiff piece of wood, like a popsicle stick and water. The oxide itself can be abrasive so make sure the rinse the loose stuff off. The green oxide can be from copper or nickel. Once you have the surface clean and dry, use a little of the DC#4 to coat and protect it from future corrosion. ( See earlier post on subject of DC#4 ) Dwight >From: "Martin Scott Goldberg" > >>>My concern is I don't want to use any sort of cleaner that will harm >>>whatever material the surrounding pcb is made of (as it appears to be made >>>out of an older, thicker material than most modern PCB's I see). >> >>If the underlying material is copper, why not one of the ion-exchange instant silverplate solutions like Cool-Amp or Caswell Silverplater? They deposit a very (one molecule) thin layer of silver that might do the trick for a restoration. Caswell also m >arkets brush-plating electrolytic silver (and nickel, gold and a whole bunch of other metals) kits if you'd like something more substantial.. (http://www.caswellplating.com). >> >>Cheers, >>Chuck >> > >The exposed copper doesn't look to be underlying. > >Well, here's a pic of what the cart and connector normally looks like - > >http://www.pong-story.com/pics/odyssey/cart7.jpg >http://www.pong-story.com/pics/odyssey/carts.jpg > >As you can see, the PCB is much thicker than a standard PCB of today. I'm >assuming its made of a different material then (which is why I'm hoping >people on here in to mini's and such from that period of around 1972 would >be familiar). > >The contacts themselves are what are tarnishing and turning green, some >with white deposits. > >Marty > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Oct 3 11:37:24 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 09:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ibm 5028 operator station Message-ID: <200510031637.JAA07984@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I would guess that a standard ASR33 cover would work. You'd need to carefully remove the IBM label and move it to the new cover. The 33 covers are hard to come by but not as hard as the IBM labeled one. It otherwise looks repairable. Dwight >From: "Kurt Rosenfeld" > >Dear classic computer people, > >Does anyone know anything about an IBM 5028? I ran across one in bad >shape a couple of days ago. > >Photos: >http://ees2cy.engr.ccny.cuny.edu/wwwa/web/hardware/ibm5028a.jpg >http://ees2cy.engr.ccny.cuny.edu/wwwa/web/hardware/ibm5028b.jpg > >thanks, -kurt > > From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Oct 3 13:28:19 2005 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:28:19 -0500 Subject: Non-responsive hard drive - help? In-Reply-To: <200510031700.j93H02xX053204@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510031700.j93H02xX053204@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: All, mea culpa, didn't teach the kids about backups before trying to teach them Pascal on my Mac Plus. Sigh. Broken component is the hard drive from a La Cie Tsunami external enclosure. Drive is a Quantum Prodrive LPS, 240 MB capacity, part number (I think) GN24S012 Rev 05-J. Drive failed while in use, so it's not termination; another hard drive (Seagate ST31230N) in the same enclosure appears to format OK (that's as far as I've gotten to date), so I don't think it's the SCSI interface in the Mac Plus or the Tsunami power supply. (Despite one inadvertent 120V discharge to the anti-static on the inside of the Tsunami case!) Drive no longer appears as a boot drive on the Mac Plus SCSI chain, nor as a boot drive to a Mac II, nor as an accessible drive to either the Plus or a Powerbook 3400. Another drive (Apple CD 300) placed downstream of it (and termination rearranged appropriately) *does* appear to the 3400, so that's another data point that it's the Quantum that's broken and not the enclosure or the SCSI cabling/termination. Drive *does* make spinning-up and head-seeking noises (once per power-up). LED indicating drive attention does flash, *once*, as computer boots up. 5V and 12V supplies to drive look OK to my old analog multimeter. When running with case open and parts spread out (now more carefully insulated), one chip on the Quantum controller board gets pretty hot pretty fast. That chip is marked 2J4 HA13476 and has a couple of "wings" in place of the middle 4 or so legs that would normally be on either side of a regular DIP package. I haven't gotten an ESR meter yet (I *really* need one of those), and have not attempted to survey for bad caps on the Quantum controller board. Questions: 1) Is the HA13476 expected to be pretty warm in use? 2) What is an HA13476? Is it unobtanium, or replaceable by someone of my meager soldering skill? 3) Anyone have a matching drive that I could get at reasonably low cost to try exchanging controller boards? 4) Any suggestions for further trouble-shooting and/or repairing? I'm proceeding with the Seagate, and will restore from my last backups, but I know I won't get the kids' Pascal code, so I'd like to try to get this HDA running again if at all possible. (Plus there's the nostalgia factor - this was our main home system until 1997 or so, long enough that people were making fun of us about it.) (And yes, our current main home system is *almost* on topic. It's the 3400 referred to above.) I'm reading classiccomp on digest, and have an hellacious travel schedule through next February, so my responses will be sporadic at best. Apologies in advance for that, but any advice is well appreciated! -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 13:29:48 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 19:29:48 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <434156D8.6020107@yahoo.co.uk> References: <26c11a640509251630b893394@mail.gmail.com> <26c11a640510021244p28d0d151p@mail.gmail.com> <434156D8.6020107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <26c11a640510031129h7ee3ff09j@mail.gmail.com> On 03/10/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > Dan Williams wrote: > >>480Z machines are hard to find now, although there' a plastic-cased one > >>on E-bay at the momnet, I think. The older metal-cased version (black > >>painted, like a 380Z keyboard) is, I am told. rarer. > >> > >>-tony > >> > > > > I missed that, but thanks for the hint. I am now the proud of owner of > > a 480z with colour monitor and floppy drive. > > > > There is a nimbus for sale as well, which says it comes with quite a > > lot of software on 5.25". I'm guessing this is either 480z or 380z. Is > > anyone on here bidding on it ? > > I think I'll try and get it for those disks. > > Looking at what's listed, I don't think there's anything on those disks > that isn't already out there, possibly with the exception of BCPL. > > Oh, it's worth keeping an eye out for a Nimbus Domesday system by the > way. They did exist, although I don't know of any survivors anywhere. > Other than that there's nothing really special about the Nimbus > hardware, it got boring after the 480Z days! (there's actually nothing > special about the Domesday Nimbus, except nobody seems to remember what > model of SCSI controller it needed) > > cheers > > Jules > Funny you should say that a manual for the nimbus system is on ebay : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nimbus-Domesday-Video-Book_W0QQitemZ8701459056QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem That nimbus and software went for ?85. I am quite suprised, I have asked about the other software. Dan From gilcarrick at comcast.net Mon Oct 3 13:41:12 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:41:12 -0500 Subject: Ebay references In-Reply-To: <26c11a640510031129h7ee3ff09j@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510031851.j93IpkFp051513@keith.ezwind.net> For whatever it's worth, when citing eBay auctions all that is necessary is the item number. In this case, 8701459056. It is very easy to find on any page and cut-n-paste into an email. A search for that number will find it quickly. Full URLs always get wrapped in an inconvenient place. Gil ... > Funny you should say that a manual for the nimbus system is on ebay : > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nimbus-Domesday-Video-Book_W0QQitemZ8701 459056QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ... From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon Oct 3 14:04:55 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 20:04:55 +0100 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E57C8@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <008301c5c84d$57f8fe60$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> > > From your description, it already sounds like I need to > > start shopping for a bench grinder. > > A grinder is way too fast for polishing plastic (unless you mind divots > and burns). Though it would be hand-held, you might want to try a buffer > first (much slower). > Actually, the crucial thing is the effective linear speed at the edge of the polishing mop, the value of which is dependant on the material being polished, and the polishing compound in use. A secondary consideration is the cooling of the mop. A large mop spends less time in contact with the work piece, so remains cooler during the polishing, which is less likely to damage the work. A look in the catalogues of the materials firms should show a suitable polishing compound for thermo plastics, and the will often come in different grades - cutting for rough work, and finishing for final buffing. A good UK supplier is Cetelem. My polishing set-up is made from an old double-ended, floor standing drum sander, fitted with "false noses" - the tapered screws that hold the mops (remeber you need a left hand and a right hand one for a double ended machine!). It is run from a single phase 1/3 HP motor, with a three step pulley to allow for speed changes (I ought to fit a varible speed drive, but haven't found a cheap one yet). The floor standing base makes the unit nice and stable. If you start polishing, make sure you have suitable protective clothing (goggles or face shield, leather apron, leather gauntlets, and dust mask), as the mops have a habit of picking up any item you are holding, and throwing it back at you! In the case of hard plastics (e.g. Bakelite), beware of stress fractures in the material - I've had a radio case shatter into razor sharp splinters - it took me hours to get them out of my arm (hence the protective clothing...........). Jim. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 3 14:46:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 20:46:37 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <26c11a640510031129h7ee3ff09j@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640509251630b893394@mail.gmail.com> <26c11a640510021244p28d0d151p@mail.gmail.com> <434156D8.6020107@yahoo.co.uk> <26c11a640510031129h7ee3ff09j@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43418A9D.1080003@yahoo.co.uk> Dan Williams wrote: >>Oh, it's worth keeping an eye out for a Nimbus Domesday system by the >>way. They did exist, although I don't know of any survivors anywhere. >>Other than that there's nothing really special about the Nimbus >>hardware, it got boring after the 480Z days! (there's actually nothing >>special about the Domesday Nimbus, except nobody seems to remember what >>model of SCSI controller it needed) >> >>cheers >> >>Jules >> > > Funny you should say that a manual for the nimbus system is on ebay : Hmm, I *think* that's a first edition; I'm pretty sure that's the manual we have, although we have a second edition (which contains a picture of the hardware on the front cover). If I'm right, then that book's more of a user guide (obviously rather useful still!) - what I've not ever seen is any kind of technical manual which presumably accompanied the system (unless RML did something odd like send in support engineers to set up and administer their systems) One day I'll bump into an ex-RML employee who can fill in details, but so far they seem rather elusive! cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 3 14:52:52 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 20:52:52 +0100 Subject: Ebay references In-Reply-To: <200510031851.j93IpkFp051513@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510031851.j93IpkFp051513@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <43418C14.3090403@yahoo.co.uk> Gil Carrick wrote: > For whatever it's worth, when citing eBay auctions all that is necessary is > the item number. In this case, 8701459056. It is very easy to find on any > page and cut-n-paste into an email. A search for that number will find it > quickly. Full URLs always get wrapped in an inconvenient place. > > Gil Yep, useful point (assuming that national EBay numbers track with ebay.com ones :) Whilst on the subject of EBay, can I also add that it's handy to have a short description of what the item is when there's no surrounding context (not relevant for Dan's post). All too often I see posts on this list along the lines of "look what I saw on ebay" and just a link. Not all of us have web browsers that load in a nanosecond or even read email on the same machine as they browse the web with, so it's useful to know in advance whether it's worth the effort to go look at the page :) (would the wiki be a useful place to record these two points? Or do we have a FAQ these days?) cheers Jules From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 3 15:13:04 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 21:13:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <434156D8.6020107@yahoo.co.uk> References: <26c11a640509251630b893394@mail.gmail.com> <26c11a640510021244p28d0d151p@mail.gmail.com> <434156D8.6020107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <50418.82.152.112.73.1128370384.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Mon, October 3, 2005 5:05 pm, Jules Richardson said: > Oh, it's worth keeping an eye out for a Nimbus Domesday system by the > way. They did exist, although I don't know of any survivors anywhere. > Other than that there's nothing really special about the Nimbus > hardware, it got boring after the 480Z days! (there's actually nothing > special about the Domesday Nimbus, except nobody seems to remember what > model of SCSI controller it needed) Given that I've got 2 Nimbus machines (nimbii? :) is this something I could build if we find out which SCSI controller was used? -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From mbg at world.std.com Mon Oct 3 15:48:19 2005 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan Gentry) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 16:48:19 -0400 Subject: DECassette pictures In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050826101746.1a2fd9e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050826101746.1a2fd9e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43419913.9070706@world.std.com> Joe R. wrote: > DEC made CAPS-11 "operating-system" especially arount this peripheral, > basically the papertape programming software on casettes. > > I'm not aware of any surviving copy of this..." I actually have a bunch of tapes from caps-11... I don't know if it is a complete copy, but it is much more than nothing... -- +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, PP-ASEL,ST,EMT/B | email: mbg at world.std.com | | Former RT-11 Developer | | | | (s/ at /@/) | | | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 3 15:50:52 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:50:52 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <50418.82.152.112.73.1128370384.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <26c11a640509251630b893394@mail.gmail.com> <26c11a640510021244p28d0d151p@mail.gmail.com> <434156D8.6020107@yahoo.co.uk> <50418.82.152.112.73.1128370384.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <434199AC.30100@yahoo.co.uk> Witchy wrote: > On Mon, October 3, 2005 5:05 pm, Jules Richardson said: > >>Oh, it's worth keeping an eye out for a Nimbus Domesday system by the >>way. They did exist, although I don't know of any survivors anywhere. >>Other than that there's nothing really special about the Nimbus >>hardware, it got boring after the 480Z days! (there's actually nothing >>special about the Domesday Nimbus, except nobody seems to remember what >>model of SCSI controller it needed) > > > Given that I've got 2 Nimbus machines (nimbii? :) is this something I > could build if we find out which SCSI controller was used? I *think* so. The necessary software's in my loft back home (I assume it's the equivalent of the VFS ROM on the Beeb). I haven't found out how the trackerball connects yet, or if the Nimbus version even supported it (might have been keyboard-only, although there was a BBC User Port board available for the Nimbus) Pete Chilvers *might* have a Nimbus with *a* SCSI controller; it's worth giving him a shout. Whether it's the right board is another question. Adrian Pearce (who did the National Archives Domesday data conversion from the Beeb) is also trying to get a Nimbus version up and running, so picking his brains too would be worthwhile. If you can wait until I'm back in the UK next month I can lay my mits on the software, manual, and all the relevant emails I'd scraped together! :) (by all accounts the Nimbus version of the software isn't a patch on the BBC one by the way, so don't get too excited ;) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 3 15:56:01 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:56:01 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <26c11a640510031129h7ee3ff09j@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640509251630b893394@mail.gmail.com> <26c11a640510021244p28d0d151p@mail.gmail.com> <434156D8.6020107@yahoo.co.uk> <26c11a640510031129h7ee3ff09j@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43419AE1.9090503@yahoo.co.uk> Dan Williams wrote: >>>I missed that, but thanks for the hint. I am now the proud of owner of >>>a 480z with colour monitor and floppy drive. I just picked up on that - nice score! So that's two known 480Z floppy drive units surviving... Does the colour monitor just look to be a rebadged something-else? I've never seen a kosher colour display for the 480Z either, so I don't know if RML designed their own monitor case (or even chassis), just rebadged someone else's, or expected the user to provide whatever they chose. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 3 09:45:00 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 07:45:00 -0700 Subject: Cleaning Copper Contacts? In-Reply-To: <200510020747.j927lcPM021525@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200510020747.j927lcPM021525@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <200510030745000622.332EBDF1@10.0.0.252> On 10/2/2005 at 2:47 AM Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: >The exposed copper doesn't look to be underlying. > >Well, here's a pic of what the cart and connector normally looks like - > >http://www.pong-story.com/pics/odyssey/cart7.jpg >http://www.pong-story.com/pics/odyssey/carts.jpg > >As you can see, the PCB is much thicker than a standard PCB of today. I'm >assuming its made of a different material then (which is why I'm hoping >people on here in to mini's and such from that period of around 1972 would >be familiar). > >The contacts themselves are what are tarnishing and turning green, some >with white deposits. The PCB looks to be of the plain old phenolic variety, still used today in low-cost applications requiring only one or two-sided conductors. It can be brittle, particularly with age, so be gentle. The contacts themselves appear to be simple tinplate. Try cleaning by gentle rubbing with an ordinary pencil eraser--that should remove enough tarnish to ensure good contact. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 3 16:24:17 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 22:24:17 +0100 Subject: FF: Apple Mac (Milton Keynes, UK) Message-ID: <4341A181.4090801@yahoo.co.uk> I have no idea exactly what model (could LCII screens be used with anything other than an LCII?), but we have more Apple hardware than we need right now - if anyone wants to chase this one up, then contact Mavis Beard direct on mavis.beard at btinternet.com Seems like a good way of getting a stock Apple machine in nice condition at the very least. <<< I wonder whether you can help please - I wish to find a home for the following computer which I now no longer need and I have been advised to contact yourselves: Apple Mac Computer with Claris Works Mackintosh LCII Monitor Mouse Keyboard Modem Printer Stylewriter II This is in very good condition, in fact hardly used so hope you can take it on board. >>> From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Oct 3 16:28:46 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 22:28:46 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <43419AE1.9090503@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <001901c5c861$7141d590$5b01a8c0@pc1> Jules Richardson wrote: > Dan Williams wrote: >>>> I missed that, but thanks for the hint. I am now the proud of owner >>>> of a 480z with colour monitor and floppy drive. > > I just picked up on that - nice score! So that's two known 480Z floppy > drive units surviving... They're rare? I have a beige 480Z and a beige dual floppy to go with it. 5-1/4" 720K (IIRC). It was working when I last used it umpteen years ago. Are we talking about the same thing? Separate from the 480Z unit itself (obviously). Drives are vertical, positioned side by side in the (heavy) metal case. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 3 18:02:05 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 00:02:05 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <001901c5c861$7141d590$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <001901c5c861$7141d590$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <4341B86D.7050909@yahoo.co.uk> a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >>Dan Williams wrote: >> >>>>>I missed that, but thanks for the hint. I am now the proud of owner >>>>>of a 480z with colour monitor and floppy drive. >> >>I just picked up on that - nice score! So that's two known 480Z floppy >>drive units surviving... > > > They're rare? I have a beige 480Z and a beige dual floppy to > go with it. 5-1/4" 720K (IIRC). It was working when I last > used it umpteen years ago. > > Are we talking about the same thing? Separate from the > 480Z unit itself (obviously). Drives are vertical, > positioned side by side in the (heavy) metal case. That's the critter. I get the impression that: a) Not many 480Z machines existed outside of schools* b) Of those that did, users almost exclusively used tape for storage. RML advertising pitched the disk unit as network fileserver storage for school/business use; it seems that they didn't intend for people (private or at school) to use it as a personal storage device on a 1:1 basis. For that reason it was probably rather expensive* as RML didn't intend to sell that many (compared to computers) *plus it has on-board Z80 etc. which must have really pushed parts cost up... So yep, it's rather a rare thing to have - although the number I now know about has tripled in the last week ;) Do you have any RML software? I'm trying to collect as much together as I can - so far it's all 380Z based though and other than MP/M on the CHAIN fileserver the only 480Z code I can lay my hands on is the Shared Disc software (and I haven't had time yet to see if that floppy's still intact) cheers Jules From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Oct 3 18:01:42 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 00:01:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Non-responsive hard drive - help? In-Reply-To: Mark Tapley "Non-responsive hard drive - help?" (Oct 3, 13:28) References: <200510031700.j93H02xX053204@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <10510040001.ZM6220@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 3 2005, 13:28, Mark Tapley wrote: > Broken component is the hard drive from a La Cie Tsunami > external enclosure. Drive is a Quantum Prodrive LPS, 240 MB capacity, > 1) Is the HA13476 expected to be pretty warm in use? > > 2) What is an HA13476? Is it unobtanium Don't know... > 3) Anyone have a matching drive that I could get at reasonably low > cost to try exchanging controller boards? ...and too far away... > 4) Any suggestions for further trouble-shooting and/or repairing? ...but I can offer some possible comfort, in that I have swapped boards between Quantum Prodrive LPSs of that sort of size successfully, even when the drives participating in the swap have not been the same size as each other. Might need to swap the ROM as well, but the ones I've seen are all socketed. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Oct 3 18:15:45 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 00:15:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mac software - Pagemaker - was Re: FF: Apple Mac In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "FF: Apple Mac (Milton Keynes, UK)" (Oct 3, 22:24) References: <4341A181.4090801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <10510040015.ZM6245@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 3 2005, 22:24, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I have no idea exactly what model (could LCII screens be used with > anything other than an LCII?), but we have more Apple hardware than we > need right now I have hardware (most notably a Mac Plus with a matching external hard drive) but not a key piece of software: Aldus Pagemaker from around 1985/86 (ie one of the earliest versions). Has anybody got a copy they could donate or lend? The reason I ask is that I'm involved in an exhibition in Computer Science at the University of York, to run for the University's Open Day this Friday, and also to support a series of "hardware tours" for the first year students starting on Monday (these guided tours are a scheduled part of each tutorial group's activities in the first week of term, and are compulsory for each new student). The idea is to show students what real hardware looks like, in support of the Introduction to Computer Systems course, which deals with architectures and systems at an introductory level. Since modern PC hardware isn't very interesting or especially educational to look at, someone had the bright idea of showing classic hardware and its innards, and I got roped in. Anyway, amongst the PDP-8, PDP-11s, SGIs and Suns, KIM-1, and a bunch of other things, there's a Mac Plus beside a loop of the 1984 promo film, and I wanted to show Pagemaker on it, as being the "killer app". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Oct 3 18:36:56 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 16:36:56 -0700 Subject: Cleaning Copper Contacts? Message-ID: Barry Watzman wrote: On cleaning "copper" contacts (which may be gold plated): I would first try using a "magic rub" pencil eraser, rubbing it over the contacts. It is very important to use this specific brand, "Magic Rub", it's non-abrasive. These are popular and common and this brand of eraser is carried at all office supply stores (OfficeMax, Staples, Office Depot, etc.) On sanding plastic, DON'T. Instead use automotive rubbing or polishing compound and rub/buff with a soft cloth. (if you are going to paint, rubbing compound is the coarser product). It's possible these will leave a finish so smooth that you no longer need/want to paint. I am not familiar with the "magic rub" pencil eraser. Most pencil or so-called rubber erasers have a high sulpher content. They are especially hard on silver and copper. I've tried them on copper contacts and watched the color go from shiny new penny to forest green in a few days. If the connector is gold plated, you should not need to clean them. If you are having green, then the gold is a very thin plate, or an amalgam of copper and gold ( and possibly other metals) Have you tried a dremel tool with a dry polishing wheel - no solvent or compound? Use it lightly. This has worked wonders for me though it does take patience. I agree with Barry on the plastic. I would add to never use power equipment when sanding plastic. It always leaves a pattern that almost impossible to get rid off. A little elbow grease and lots of patience. Most rubbing compound is very coarse so run a test on a hidden surface before using. I've also used some astronomers grinding grits in water. These come in extremely fine grits and won't leave visible scratches. Used to buy them through Edmond or Fisher Scientific. Billy From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 3 19:23:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 17:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Off-topical Engrish burrclap Re: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <200510011226540835.29E42D7F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > By using lowest work vnltages: 5v, safety & reliability High effciency, > saving energy. > > It makes 20 times long life than normal daylight by placing exeed ages > cold light tube. > > The lamp which not only can form a comlete set with usb computer soket, > but also can directly set with city power supply. > > Connect lampshade & lamp base in soft tube. economic, beauty. > Convenience on easy handle light direction." ENGRISH! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 3 19:24:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 17:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M Archive - Need disk images! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Oct 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > Alright, I suppose this is the proper way to do this =] > > Anyone who dosn't know, I'm hoping to run up a CP/M archive. > As with all endevours of this sort, I'm in need of disk images! > > Put 'em online, email 'em to me, do whatever! Get them to me, > Send minor descriptions, tell me what machines they were made for, > And most importantly, do include the disk image :) > > Send away, and make me fill Jay's harddrive until it explodes =] This has the VintageTech Seal of Endorsement! :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gramp at dslextreme.com Mon Oct 3 19:49:16 2005 From: gramp at dslextreme.com (Phil Stensgaard) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 17:49:16 -0700 Subject: New aquisition: Texas Instruments TI 980A Message-ID: <001301c5c87d$72ed03d0$eecd9f42@ComputerIWill> I have a Texas Instruments 980A with all the flashing lights and switches, hard disk drive and all I am trying to find a Museum or Individual that would like it Can you help? Phillip J. Stensgaard 1123 Fairview Ave South Pasadena, CA 91030 (626)441-1542 gramp at dslextreme.com From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 3 20:17:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20051003070759.04dfb670@alpha.ccii.co.za> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Oct 2005, Wouter wrote: > >PS. Shipping to Canada is the other factor. > > And here I'm sitting wondering what shipping to South Africa > would cost...Canada? Sheesh, you guys are right around the > corner from one another *grin* Yes, and we still have this silly impediment to commerce called "Customs" :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 3 20:18:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5028 In-Reply-To: <6A15E72BE8E3D44494D6BDAF3C388E0E0449F60C@rijpat-s-346.europe.shell.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Oct 2005, Stegeman, Henk HJ SITI-ITIBHW5 wrote: > The IBM 5028 was the console of the IBM System/7. > Pity it is in such a poor state. Seriously? I thought this was just someone taking the label off the actual IBM 5028 and applying it to that Teletype. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 3 20:42:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ebay references In-Reply-To: <200510031851.j93IpkFp051513@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Oct 2005, Gil Carrick wrote: > For whatever it's worth, when citing eBay auctions all that is necessary is > the item number. In this case, 8701459056. It is very easy to find on any > page and cut-n-paste into an email. A search for that number will find it > quickly. Full URLs always get wrapped in an inconvenient place. Indeed. Now I wish someone would explain why eBay went from a nice, clean and SANE URL to the big catastrophe they now make you link to. > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nimbus-Domesday-Video-Book_W0QQitemZ8701 > 459056QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem WTF! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 3 20:45:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ebay references In-Reply-To: <43418C14.3090403@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Oct 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > (would the wiki be a useful place to record these two points? Or do we > have a FAQ these days?) How about some good old fashion common sense? It seems that's asking too much these days. (Yes, I'm grumpy today. F the world :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 20:49:29 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:49:29 -0400 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4341DFA9.1010907@gmail.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 3 Oct 2005, Wouter wrote: > > >>>PS. Shipping to Canada is the other factor. >> >>And here I'm sitting wondering what shipping to South Africa >>would cost...Canada? Sheesh, you guys are right around the >>corner from one another *grin* > > > Yes, and we still have this silly impediment to commerce called > "Customs" :( I've found that customs largely disappears if you drive the goods across the border in your car. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 3 20:51:50 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <4341DFA9.1010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Oct 2005, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Yes, and we still have this silly impediment to commerce called > > "Customs" :( > > I've found that customs largely disappears if you drive the goods across > the border in your car. 8-) Funny, I've found that gas and hence money also disappears (at an alarming rate I might add) using this very procedure ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Oct 3 21:13:42 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:13:42 Subject: Cleaning Copper Contacts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051003211342.331771ca@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:36 PM 10/3/05 -0700, you wrote: > > >If the connector is gold plated, you should not need to clean them. If you >are having green, then the gold is a very thin plate, Not necessary. Gold is very porous and acids and the like penetrate it easily and corrode the copper underneath and the corrosion products then travel back through the gold and appear on the surface of the contact. It's not uncommon to find gold plated contacts with nothing left but a thin sheet of gold. All the copper was corroded away leaving nothing but the gold. Corrosion like this is common on the HP calculators and it's what happens when you plate gold directly over copper. The proper way to do it is to plate nickel or other non-porous material over the copper and then plate gold over that. The nickel will prevent the acids and oxygen from penetrating the surface and corroding the copper. FWIW on OLD cars they used to plate steel with copper, then nickel and then chrome plate over that. Plating like that will easily last 40 years (speaking from experience). Joe or an amalgam of >copper and gold ( and possibly other metals) Have you tried a dremel tool >with a dry polishing wheel - no solvent or compound? Use it lightly. This >has worked wonders for me though it does take patience. > From starmaster at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 21:49:27 2005 From: starmaster at gmail.com (Star Master) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 20:49:27 -0600 Subject: Yellowing plastic? Message-ID: <5736e8250510031949x694bfd51yf5d604c079ab8477@mail.gmail.com> Anyone know the best way to handle the restoration of plastic that has yellowed due to being in someones basement or something? Has that dingy brownish/yellowish tint to it. I thought I saw a posting about it earlier, but cannot locate it now... Thanks From gilcarrick at comcast.net Mon Oct 3 21:59:12 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 21:59:12 -0500 Subject: New aquisition: Texas Instruments TI 980A In-Reply-To: <001301c5c87d$72ed03d0$eecd9f42@ComputerIWill> Message-ID: <200510040309.j9439iS4060610@keith.ezwind.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Phil Stensgaard > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 7:49 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: New aquisition: Texas Instruments TI 980A > > I have a Texas Instruments 980A with all the flashing lights > and switches, hard disk drive and all > > I am trying to find a Museum or Individual that would like it I can help. I'll take it off your hands. We will even give you a receipt for tax purposes. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > > Can you help? > > Phillip J. Stensgaard > 1123 Fairview Ave > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (626)441-1542 > > gramp at dslextreme.com From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 22:05:45 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 23:05:45 -0400 Subject: CP/M Archive - Need disk images! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/3/05 8:24 PM, "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote: > On Sat, 1 Oct 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > >> Alright, I suppose this is the proper way to do this =] > > This has the VintageTech Seal of Endorsement! :) YAY! -jumps up and down in excitement- How about some free CP/M machines to uh... Archive with? -runs- I only want ten machines of any type! =] prefferably not pc compatable =] -hides- From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 22:50:43 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 23:50:43 -0400 Subject: Ebay references In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4341FC13.2000603@gmail.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 3 Oct 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > >>(would the wiki be a useful place to record these two points? Or do we >>have a FAQ these days?) > > > How about some good old fashion common sense? It seems that's asking too > much these days. > > (Yes, I'm grumpy today. F the world :) > Does that mean you're going to call someone an AAAAASSSS!!!? Allow me to volunteer. 8-) Peace.. Sridhar From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Oct 4 01:11:20 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 06:11:20 +0000 Subject: Ebay references In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43421D08.5050304@gjcp.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Indeed. Now I wish someone would explain why eBay went from a nice, clean > and SANE URL to the big catastrophe they now make you link to. >>http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nimbus-Domesday-Video-Book_W0QQitemZ8701 >>459056QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem It only seems to do this if you're not logged in. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Oct 4 01:18:38 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 06:18:38 +0000 Subject: FF: Apple Mac (Milton Keynes, UK) In-Reply-To: <4341A181.4090801@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4341A181.4090801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43421EBE.4090801@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > I have no idea exactly what model (could LCII screens be used with > anything other than an LCII?), but we have more Apple hardware than we > need right now - if anyone wants to chase this one up, then contact > Mavis Beard direct on mavis.beard at btinternet.com I'm trying to thin the herd a little, but if I knew roughly where she was I'd send her an email. I can always track down someone to take old Macs. Gordon. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 4 04:38:31 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 10:38:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: FF: Apple Mac (Milton Keynes, UK) In-Reply-To: <43421EBE.4090801@gjcp.net> References: <4341A181.4090801@yahoo.co.uk> <43421EBE.4090801@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <18153.195.92.106.69.1128418711.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Tue, October 4, 2005 7:18 am, Gordon JC Pearce said: > I'm trying to thin the herd a little, but if I knew roughly where she > was I'd send her an email. I can always track down someone to take old > Macs. I thought she was cambridge way, going from distant memory. Handy that you can always shift on old LCs - know anyone that wants half a dozen with about 4 screens but otherwise complete running OS 7.x? -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Oct 4 06:26:10 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:26:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: FF: Apple Mac (Milton Keynes, UK) In-Reply-To: <18153.195.92.106.69.1128418711.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <4341A181.4090801@yahoo.co.uk> <43421EBE.4090801@gjcp.net> <18153.195.92.106.69.1128418711.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <5049.195.212.29.83.1128425170.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > > On Tue, October 4, 2005 7:18 am, Gordon JC Pearce said: > >> I'm trying to thin the herd a little, but if I knew roughly where she >> was I'd send her an email. I can always track down someone to take old >> Macs. > > I thought she was cambridge way, going from distant memory. Handy that you > can always shift on old LCs - know anyone that wants half a dozen with > about 4 screens but otherwise complete running OS 7.x? Possibly. I know someone who is a bit into old Macs, but I haven't seen him about for a bit. Gordon. From asholz at topinform.de Tue Oct 4 06:50:47 2005 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 13:50:47 +0200 Subject: "screen mold" In-Reply-To: <5736e8250510031949x694bfd51yf5d604c079ab8477@mail.gmail.com> References: <5736e8250510031949x694bfd51yf5d604c079ab8477@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43426C97.1030807@topinform.de> Hello all, I'm experiencing some monitors in the last time, mostly, but not only from HP, with the effect of some kind of small bubbles or shell-like failures in the flront part of the crt-tube. Somewhere I read the description of "screen mold". Some of them seems to be stored at a lower temperature, more specific at changing temperatures, in a garage with temperatures somehow closely related to outside. Does someone knows this effect, has an explanation of it's source (is it really temperature related?) or how to avoid this problem. Some of these monitors (esp. of a HP9845) are looking so badly, that I don't dare to power on. Andreas ** From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 4 09:11:20 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 09:11:20 Subject: QUICKALERT OSBORNE HOFFMAN CENTRAL STATION RCVR AIM-65 Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051004091120.3ea76300@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Did you guys and gals see this? Ebay Item number: 6002377010 Joe From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 4 08:43:57 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 14:43:57 +0100 Subject: FF: Apple Mac (Milton Keynes, UK) In-Reply-To: <43421EBE.4090801@gjcp.net> References: <4341A181.4090801@yahoo.co.uk> <43421EBE.4090801@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4342871D.20506@yahoo.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> >> I have no idea exactly what model (could LCII screens be used with >> anything other than an LCII?), but we have more Apple hardware than we >> need right now - if anyone wants to chase this one up, then contact >> Mavis Beard direct on mavis.beard at btinternet.com > > > I'm trying to thin the herd a little, but if I knew roughly where she > was I'd send her an email. I can always track down someone to take old > Macs. Other than the subject line I'm afraid I don't know - drop her an email though (except IIRC you're right up the top of the country! :) She sounded a little distressed at the possibility of dumping the machine, so I hope someone can rescue it (if only because it sounds to be in good condition, unlike the usual ex-school Macs that are pretty battered) I knew someone Cambridge way who used to recycle old Macs to good homes but whilst I'm travelling I don't have proper email archives with me in order to check :-( cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 4 08:58:40 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 14:58:40 +0100 Subject: "screen mold" In-Reply-To: <43426C97.1030807@topinform.de> References: <5736e8250510031949x694bfd51yf5d604c079ab8477@mail.gmail.com> <43426C97.1030807@topinform.de> Message-ID: <43428A90.6030008@yahoo.co.uk> Andreas Holz wrote: > Does someone knows this effect, has an explanation of it's source (is it > really temperature related?) or how to avoid this problem. Some of these > monitors (esp. of a HP9845) are looking so badly, that I don't dare to > power on. It's well-known; a lot of our HP equipment suffers from it too. I don't think anyone's tracked down the exact cause yet (Sellam, didn't you think you could get a sample of the stuff analysed if someone sent you some?) Whatever the stuff is, it attacks the sealant between the CRT and CRT faceplate. I've successfully removed the decaying sealant on an HP 250 display using a bit of resistance wire and a scrap PC PSU, then resealed (edges of the faceplate only, not the visible portion of the CRT) using translucent waterproof sealant. The CRT itself and faceplate were both unaffected by the decay; it only affects the sealant between them. The fact that I only resealed around the edges (it's too difficult to apply sealant to the whole screen with home tools without getting air bubbles in) means that there's a *little* less protection to the user (the faceplate's pretty thin anyway) in the event of a CRT explosion, but I figure this isn't a likely occurrance in the first place - and having a usable screen's far better than a useless one! I've seen the same problem on Digico displays, but not much else - it seems to mainly get HP screens for some reason. Anyway, good news is that it an be worked around :) In the case of our HP 250 display, there was a lot of moisture trapped between faceplate and CRT, so you're probably right in not powering on until you've sorted it out, just in case the damp leaks and gets somewhere it's not supposed to. cheers Jules From kth at srv.net Tue Oct 4 10:13:46 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 09:13:46 -0600 Subject: Yellowing plastic? In-Reply-To: <5736e8250510031949x694bfd51yf5d604c079ab8477@mail.gmail.com> References: <5736e8250510031949x694bfd51yf5d604c079ab8477@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43429C2A.6050900@srv.net> Star Master wrote: >Anyone know the best way to handle the restoration of plastic that has >yellowed due to being in someones basement or something? Has that dingy >brownish/yellowish tint to it. >I thought I saw a posting about it earlier, but cannot locate it now... >Thanks > > > Depends on what caused the staining. Usually yellows due to exposure to sunlight, or tobacco. Is there a smoker in the house? Try 409 (a cleaner). Spray on, let sit, wipe off. Repeat until the yellow gunk stops coming off. Works well for tobacco stains, and some sunlight problems. Won't make it pristine, but greatly reduces the problem without doing any damage. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Oct 4 10:14:30 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 11:14:30 -0400 Subject: Ebay references In-Reply-To: References: <200510031851.j93IpkFp051513@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051004110941.03aa1640@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Mon, 3 Oct 2005, Gil Carrick wrote: > > > For whatever it's worth, when citing eBay auctions all that is necessary is > > the item number. In this case, 8701459056. It is very easy to find on any > > page and cut-n-paste into an email. A search for that number will find it > > quickly. Full URLs always get wrapped in an inconvenient place. > >Indeed. Now I wish someone would explain why eBay went from a nice, clean >and SANE URL to the big catastrophe they now make you link to. ePay's URLs haven't been 'small' for quite a while, but they were always pretty easy to shrink to oneliners... did it all the time. > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nimbus-Domesday-Video-Book_W0QQitemZ8701 > > 459056QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Which I shrunk to: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/_W0QQitemZ8701459056 and it worked just fine. Just whack everything between the domain and the underscore, and everything after the listing #. [1] Geepers, that ain't rocket surgery... ;^> [1] Which is pretty much what I did with the old URLs too, but they used to be much longer than that. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Oct 4 11:03:15 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 09:03:15 -0700 Subject: Non-responsive hard drive - help? In-Reply-To: <10510040001.ZM6220@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200510031700.j93H02xX053204@dewey.classiccmp.org> <10510040001.ZM6220@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Oct 3 2005, 13:28, Mark Tapley wrote: > > > Broken component is the hard drive from a La Cie Tsunami > > external enclosure. Drive is a Quantum Prodrive LPS, 240 MB capacity, > > > 1) Is the HA13476 expected to be pretty warm in use? > > > > 2) What is an HA13476? Is it unobtanium > > I think HA13476 is a 3-phase DC motor driver. It's obsolete, but I think there are pin comapatible replacements. I don't know whether it should get warm in operation, but if it's continuously driving current I wouldn't be surprised if it did. Eric From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 11:25:58 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 17:25:58 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebay In-Reply-To: <43380CEA.4080407@yahoo.co.uk> References: <26c11a64050925142436174447@mail.gmail.com> <49211.82.152.112.73.1127685641.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <26c11a640509251630b893394@mail.gmail.com> <433742BD.3010902@yahoo.co.uk> <43380CEA.4080407@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <26c11a640510040925m5bbf9d49m@mail.gmail.com> > Anyone else on this list bidding on this? One of our museum guys stuck a > bid on it but says someone else seems pretty keen to snag it. > > We don't really need an original disk, but a copy of the image would > sure be nice... > > cheers > > Jules > That bid ended today. I was looking for a copy of a 480z system disk and found that Paul Williams (Who I think you know Jules) has most of the software I want. I also found on his webpage that he is the one who I outbid on the 480z and pushed up the price on the system disk. Must be Karma. Dan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 4 13:24:02 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:24:02 -0700 Subject: Is this an acceptable VCM listing? Message-ID: http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=2024 I don't think it is. I'm curious of other people's opinion on it. From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Oct 4 13:28:57 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 14:28:57 -0400 Subject: Is this an acceptable VCM listing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4342C9E9.9040202@atarimuseum.com> I agree... thats just a cheap ploy to get people to contact the seller and inquire about parts and has no value to VCM's way to listing stuff. Curt Al Kossow wrote: > http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=2024 > > I don't think it is. > I'm curious of other people's opinion on it. > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/118 - Release Date: 10/3/2005 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 4 13:53:19 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is this an acceptable VCM listing? In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Oct 04, 2005 11:24:02 AM Message-ID: <200510041853.j94IrJAZ018404@onyx.spiritone.com> > http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=2024 > > I don't think it is. > I'm curious of other people's opinion on it. > I think it's "ontopic" so to speak, but I also think it's SPAM/inappropriate. They're using the VCM as a place to put up an "advertisement". Zane From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 4 14:18:19 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 13:18:19 -0600 Subject: Is this an acceptable VCM listing? In-Reply-To: <200510041853.j94IrJAZ018404@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200510041853.j94IrJAZ018404@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4342D57B.3020308@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=2024 >> >>I don't think it is. >>I'm curious of other people's opinion on it. >> >> >> > >I think it's "ontopic" so to speak, but I also think it's >SPAM/inappropriate. They're using the VCM as a place to put up an >"advertisement". > > > The $ 999,999 is the gotya. I say that you need a comercial section but they need to pay someting for FREE - ADVERTISING. > Zane > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 4 02:20:33 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 00:20:33 -0700 Subject: Cleaning Copper Contacts? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051003211342.331771ca@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051003211342.331771ca@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200510040020330428.36BE2A63@10.0.0.252> Looking very carefully at the photos of these contacts, I believe they're simple tinplate. This would fit with the inexpensive phenolic PC board material being used. Kepro makes a non-electrolytic tinplate solution that comes as a dry powder and is mixed with water. It works well enough on bare copper PC boards to provide a corrosion-resistant coating. Cheers, Chuck From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Tue Oct 4 10:07:21 2005 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (Kurt Rosenfeld) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:07:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM 5028 Message-ID: I intend to return the 5028 to working condition. If, even in its terrible cosmetic condition, the 5028 is needed as part of somebody's IBM collection, I will trade it for a regular ASR33. But shipping from NYC would be expensive and quite possibly destructive. -kurt From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 3 16:11:58 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 22:11:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <43407C37.1090008@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Oct 2, 5 08:32:55 pm Message-ID: > > I could never get on with the 27S. The darn thing didn't have an ENTER > > key ;-) > > > > -tony > > > > That was a typo. It was supposed to read 28S. 8-) Ah, right.... I bought my 28C in 1987. I'd gone back up to university and saw it in the local bookshop. Played with it in the shop for about 5 minutes, then handed over \pounds 247.25 and walked out with it. Couldn't afford food for a fair time afterwards, but... And of course I first ran out of memory later that same day. 2K bytes was ridiculously small for that machine. The 28S at least had a sane amount of RAM, but no way of loading it other than the keyboard. Oh well... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 3 16:15:24 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 22:15:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <17217.12529.909025.436133@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Oct 3, 5 09:24:01 am Message-ID: > Mostly true, but there now are white LEDs that don't use phosphors, > just a well chosen combination of several LED colors that create the I've seen DMD (and I think conventional) LED packages containing a red, a green and 2 blue LED dice. I assume the 2 blues was to get adequate intensity of that colour. And I believe by controlling the currents through the LEDs you could get any colour, including white. > appearance of white -- just as your computer display does. Actually it doesn't. I am looking at a monochrome green screen at the moment. OK, I do have colour monitors around here.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 3 16:20:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 22:20:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Non-responsive hard drive - help? In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Oct 3, 5 01:28:19 pm Message-ID: > > Drive *does* make spinning-up and head-seeking noises (once > per power-up). LED indicating drive attention does flash, *once*, as Does it sound as though it's staying spun-up? It doesn't make spin-down noises I hope. > computer boots up. 5V and 12V supplies to drive look OK to my old > analog multimeter. > > When running with case open and parts spread out (now more > carefully insulated), one chip on the Quantum controller board gets > pretty hot pretty fast. That chip is marked 2J4 HA13476 and > has a couple of "wings" in place of the middle 4 or so legs that > would normally be on either side of a regular DIP package. Those 'wings' are heatsink tabs, used to conduct heat away from the actual chip. It's a standard package for power driver type chips. I would guess this chip is either the spindle motor or head actuator driver. As to whether it should get hot. Well, it is a power device, so it would get warm. But if it gets too hot to keep your finger on it for any length of time, then I'd start worrying. The chip may not be faulty of course, it might be a problem (like a shorted load, or an incorrect drive signal) elsewhere in the unit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 3 16:29:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 22:29:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <43419AE1.9090503@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 3, 5 09:56:01 pm Message-ID: > Does the colour monitor just look to be a rebadged something-else? I've > never seen a kosher colour display for the 480Z either, so I don't know > if RML designed their own monitor case (or even chassis), just rebadged > someone else's, or expected the user to provide whatever they chose. I am pretty sure RML never made or badged a monitor for the 380Z. The We had 380Z's at school (heck, that's over 20 years ago!), they had those little 9" Hitachi monitors that come in a roughly cubical metal case on them. While I was at school, we bought one RGB output module for the RGB board (you know, the bracket on the back with 4 BNCs). It didn't come with a monitor, and AFAIK none was speficially recomended. I do remember dismantling the school's Barco colour monitor, and armed with a circuit diagram, adding RGB inputs (Back then, schools were not so dumbed down that the kids weren't allowed to do anything even moderately dangerous, thankfully!) -tony From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 4 14:51:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ebay references In-Reply-To: <4341FC13.2000603@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Oct 2005, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Does that mean you're going to call someone an AAAAASSSS!!!? Drink-soaked popinjay is my favored invective these days ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 4 14:59:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "screen mold" In-Reply-To: <43426C97.1030807@topinform.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Andreas Holz wrote: > I'm experiencing some monitors in the last time, mostly, but not only > from HP, with the effect of some kind of small bubbles or shell-like > failures in the flront part of the crt-tube. Somewhere I read the > description of "screen mold". Nowadays the consensus is leaning towards a delamination process. > Does someone knows this effect, has an explanation of it's source (is it > really temperature related?) or how to avoid this problem. Some of these > monitors (esp. of a HP9845) are looking so badly, that I don't dare to > power on. Most likely it is the protective cover over the CRT which is delaminating from the CRT face. I don't currently know of a way to prevent this. It seems to happen randomly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 15:03:36 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:03:36 -0400 Subject: Cleaning Copper Contacts? In-Reply-To: <200510040020330428.36BE2A63@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20051003211342.331771ca@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200510040020330428.36BE2A63@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 10/4/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Looking very carefully at the photos of these contacts, I believe they're simple tinplate. This would fit with the inexpensive phenolic PC board material being used. I have an Odyssey - the cards are indeed simple tinplate over copper on uber-cheap phenolic board. What you see is what you get. No camera tricks here. -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 4 15:03:22 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 13:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "screen mold" In-Reply-To: <43428A90.6030008@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > It's well-known; a lot of our HP equipment suffers from it too. I don't > think anyone's tracked down the exact cause yet (Sellam, didn't you > think you could get a sample of the stuff analysed if someone sent you > some?) I was never able to come up with a sample :( Still on the back burner though. > I've seen the same problem on Digico displays, but not much else - it > seems to mainly get HP screens for some reason. And Soroc dumb terminals :) If we can find the commonality between the HP and Soroc CRTs (manufacturer?) it might give clues as to why it's happening. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 12:47:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 18:47:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: "screen mold" In-Reply-To: <43426C97.1030807@topinform.de> from "Andreas Holz" at Oct 4, 5 01:50:47 pm Message-ID: > > Hello all, Are you the guy who's been asking for scheamtics over on hpmuseum.net? > > I'm experiencing some monitors in the last time, mostly, but not only > from HP, with the effect of some kind of small bubbles or shell-like > failures in the flront part of the crt-tube. Somewhere I read the > description of "screen mold". > > Some of them seems to be stored at a lower temperature, more specific at > changing temperatures, in a garage with temperatures somehow closely > related to outside. > > Does someone knows this effect, has an explanation of it's source (is it The CRT faceplate is made of 2 pieces of glass bonded together (I think it's like a laminated car windscreen, the idea being to support the glass if the CRT should implode). It would appear that whatever was used for the bonding either grows mould (fungus-type-stuff) or chemically changes. At least one person here has used a thin wire to cut the bonding, then removed the front piece of glass, cleaned it up, and rebonded it. It sounds like a dangerous project to me, not only because the CRT could implode while you're cutting it, but also if you don't get the bonding strong enough when you put it back together and the CRT then subsequnectly implodes, the results would be very unpleasant. > really temperature related?) or how to avoid this problem. Some of these > monitors (esp. of a HP9845) are looking so badly, that I don't dare to > power on. Which 9845 monitor do you have? -tony From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 4 15:07:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 13:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is this an acceptable VCM listing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=2024 > > I don't think it is. > I'm curious of other people's opinion on it. Hmm, I'll let it slide because I'm too lazy right now to investigate further to see just what it is they're selling. Plus the ad is so poorly written I doubt they will get any takers. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Oct 4 15:14:02 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 20:14:02 +0000 Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4342E28A.6040706@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Actually it doesn't. I am looking at a monochrome green screen at the > moment. OK, I do have colour monitors around here.... I know I've asked this before but I don't recall the answer. What exactly *do* you use to connect to the Internet? Gordon. From dundas at caltech.edu Tue Oct 4 15:14:26 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 13:14:26 -0700 Subject: Is this an acceptable VCM listing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:24 AM -0700 10/4/05, Al Kossow wrote: >http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=2024 > >I don't think it is. >I'm curious of other people's opinion on it. I'm not keen on it. If he has something to sell, let us know. Otherwise go away. John From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 4 15:17:55 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 13:17:55 -0700 Subject: Is this an acceptable VCM listing? Message-ID: > Hmm, I'll let it slide because I'm too lazy right now to investigate And VCM makes another step towards being just like eBay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 4 15:15:02 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 21:15:02 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4342E2C6.2060505@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>Does the colour monitor just look to be a rebadged something-else? I've >>never seen a kosher colour display for the 480Z either, so I don't know >>if RML designed their own monitor case (or even chassis), just rebadged >>someone else's, or expected the user to provide whatever they chose. > > > I am pretty sure RML never made or badged a monitor for the 380Z. Agreed - all the info I've seen suggests you provided your own. Just not sure if the 480Z was the same deal or not (given that it's a much more stylised machine) > The > We had 380Z's at school (heck, that's over 20 years ago!), they had those > little 9" Hitachi monitors that come in a roughly cubical metal case on > them. Ahh, yep, I got one of those with my 380Z. Perhaps they were a standard option (contrary to what I assumed above), or they were an option like that when RML approached schools (or vice versa). > While I was at school, we bought one RGB output module for the RGB board > (you know, the bracket on the back with 4 BNCs). Reminds me, I need to fix mine (output module) on my 380Z. Can't remember the details now (and it's a few thousand miles away :) but I'm reasonably sure I remember it blowing the fuse in the PSU on the -12V line when the board was connected, but the machine was fine otherwise. Never got around to fixing it before I left the UK, but I don't imagine there's much on the board to go wrong! Of course it could be a fault with the RGB board itself I suppose... > It didn't come with a > monitor, and AFAIK none was speficially recomended. I do remember > dismantling the school's Barco colour monitor, and armed with a circuit > diagram, adding RGB inputs (Back then, schools were not so dumbed down > that the kids weren't allowed to do anything even moderately dangerous, > thankfully!) Heh, that's still pretty cool though. I imagine most schools of the time wouldn't want people taking expensive bits of kit apart (even if they thought the person was competent).The ones I went to would have extended to people making up their own cables etc. I think, but not delving inside equipment! cheers Jules From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Oct 4 15:22:31 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 16:22:31 -0400 Subject: Is this an acceptable VCM listing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4342E487.7060709@atarimuseum.com> ;-) Al Kossow wrote: > > > Hmm, I'll let it slide because I'm too lazy right now to investigate > > And VCM makes another step towards being just like eBay > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/118 - Release Date: 10/3/2005 From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 4 15:38:37 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 13:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <4342E28A.6040706@gjcp.net> from Gordon JC Pearce at "Oct 4, 5 08:14:02 pm" Message-ID: <200510042038.NAA17120@floodgap.com> > > Actually it doesn't. I am looking at a monochrome green screen at the > > moment. OK, I do have colour monitors around here.... > > I know I've asked this before but I don't recall the answer. What > exactly *do* you use to connect to the Internet? Smoke signals. Checksum's a pain, though. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I've been in the van fifteen years, Harry! -- "True Lies" ------------------ From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 15:43:25 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:43:25 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <43419AE1.9090503@yahoo.co.uk> References: <26c11a640509251630b893394@mail.gmail.com> <26c11a640510021244p28d0d151p@mail.gmail.com> <434156D8.6020107@yahoo.co.uk> <26c11a640510031129h7ee3ff09j@mail.gmail.com> <43419AE1.9090503@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <26c11a640510041343o3d5eba10y@mail.gmail.com> On 03/10/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > Dan Williams wrote: > >>>I missed that, but thanks for the hint. I am now the proud of owner of > >>>a 480z with colour monitor and floppy drive. > > I just picked up on that - nice score! So that's two known 480Z floppy > drive units surviving... > > Does the colour monitor just look to be a rebadged something-else? I've > never seen a kosher colour display for the 480Z either, so I don't know > if RML designed their own monitor case (or even chassis), just rebadged > someone else's, or expected the user to provide whatever they chose. > > cheers > > Jules > > It says it's a cub, all the monitors on the machines we had at school where cubs. I never saw anything else. Dan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 4 15:40:28 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 21:40:28 +0100 Subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4342E8BC.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > At least one person here has used a thin wire to cut the bonding, then > removed the front piece of glass, cleaned it up, and rebonded it. It > sounds like a dangerous project to me, not only because the CRT could > implode while you're cutting it, but also if you don't get the bonding > strong enough when you put it back together and the CRT then > subsequnectly implodes, the results would be very unpleasant. That does beg the question of under what conditions a CRT implodes. Do age-related implosions happen (or implosions for other reasons other than mechanical shock)? I've never heard of a CRT imploding, except for when physical damage has occured to it - but presumably it does happen. In other words what are the risks - or is it a case of over-engineering in the first place to make sure (to a reasonable extent) that there are no problems out in user-land? Also curious as to the extent of the outward blast / debris field (that sounds horribly technical but I can't think of a better phrase!) when a CRT does implode. I'd *assume* glass just extends outward a foot or two, but happy to be corrected there! (of course an explosion would be a rather different matter) Actually, is the faceplate actually there for dsamage limitation reasons - or in fact there to help prevent implosion in the first place from mechanical shock? I imagine that coupled with the sealant layer it provides a reasonable damper if the CRT is dropped with face-down. Any people on the list involved (past or present)with CRT manufacture who can provide more information? cheers Jules From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Oct 4 15:47:16 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 16:47:16 -0400 Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <200510042038.NAA17120@floodgap.com> References: <4342E28A.6040706@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051004164508.03ad4e78@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Cameron Kaiser may have mentioned these words: > > > Actually it doesn't. I am looking at a monochrome green screen at the > > > moment. OK, I do have colour monitors around here.... > > > > I know I've asked this before but I don't recall the answer. What > > exactly *do* you use to connect to the Internet? > >Smoke signals. Checksum's a pain, though. I thought it was TCP/CP; RFC1149. Yes, it has been implemented, believe it or not. http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt Just in case you've not heard of it. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 4 15:49:09 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 21:49:09 +0100 Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <200510042038.NAA17120@floodgap.com> References: <200510042038.NAA17120@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4342EAC5.1080801@yahoo.co.uk> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>Actually it doesn't. I am looking at a monochrome green screen at the >>>moment. OK, I do have colour monitors around here.... >> >>I know I've asked this before but I don't recall the answer. What >>exactly *do* you use to connect to the Internet? > > > Smoke signals. Checksum's a pain, though. Empty bean cans and baling twine... Noise level goes through the roof when you get flies on the line... From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 4 16:04:09 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051004164508.03ad4e78@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Oct 4, 5 04:47:16 pm" Message-ID: <200510042104.OAA07934@floodgap.com> > > > > Actually it doesn't. I am looking at a monochrome green screen at the > > > > moment. OK, I do have colour monitors around here.... > > > > > > I know I've asked this before but I don't recall the answer. What > > > exactly *do* you use to connect to the Internet? > > > >Smoke signals. Checksum's a pain, though. > > I thought it was TCP/CP; RFC1149. > Yes, it has been implemented, believe it or not. > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt > Just in case you've not heard of it. ;-) Ah yes. Signal strength degrades over redneck-infested areas, though. "Looks like a Telnet packet, Vern, with low Kyew-Oh-Es." "Yup. Let's shewt it." -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Everyone is entitled to my opinion. -- James Carpenter --------------------- From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Oct 4 16:07:47 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 17:07:47 -0400 Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <4342E8BC.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4342E8BC.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4342EF23.2010906@jcwren.com> Some useful information here: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtcir --jc Jules Richardson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> At least one person here has used a thin wire to cut the bonding, >> then removed the front piece of glass, cleaned it up, and rebonded >> it. It sounds like a dangerous project to me, not only because the >> CRT could implode while you're cutting it, but also if you don't get >> the bonding strong enough when you put it back together and the CRT >> then subsequnectly implodes, the results would be very unpleasant. > > > That does beg the question of under what conditions a CRT implodes. Do > age-related implosions happen (or implosions for other reasons other > than mechanical shock)? I've never heard of a CRT imploding, except > for when physical damage has occured to it - but presumably it does > happen. > > In other words what are the risks - or is it a case of > over-engineering in the first place to make sure (to a reasonable > extent) that there are no problems out in user-land? > > Also curious as to the extent of the outward blast / debris field > (that sounds horribly technical but I can't think of a better phrase!) > when a CRT does implode. I'd *assume* glass just extends outward a > foot or two, but happy to be corrected there! (of course an explosion > would be a rather different matter) > > Actually, is the faceplate actually there for dsamage limitation > reasons - or in fact there to help prevent implosion in the first > place from mechanical shock? I imagine that coupled with the sealant > layer it provides a reasonable damper if the CRT is dropped with > face-down. > > Any people on the list involved (past or present)with CRT manufacture > who can provide more information? > > cheers > > Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Oct 4 16:22:20 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cleaning Copper Contacts? Message-ID: <200510042122.OAA08571@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On 10/4/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Looking very carefully at the photos of these contacts, I believe they're simple tinplate. This would fit with the inexpensive phenolic PC board material being used. > >I have an Odyssey - the cards are indeed simple tinplate over copper >on uber-cheap phenolic board. What you see is what you get. No >camera tricks here. > >-ethan > > Hi I will repeat again. Coat with DC#4. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. It works with tinplate over copper. It even works with bare copper. As long as the surface is cleaned first of salts and such, it will protect for years. Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 4 16:25:21 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 22:25:21 +0100 Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <4342EF23.2010906@jcwren.com> References: <4342E8BC.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <4342EF23.2010906@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <4342F341.8000400@yahoo.co.uk> J.C. Wren wrote: > Some useful information here: > http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtcir Rats, I almost checked there before posting too, but didn't recall any such section on the site! Interestingly, that info implies that it's the steel strap around the perimeter of the CRT's face which does the implosion protection, and that the laminated faceplate is purely an additional protection against scratches etc. damaging the CRT itself (and therefore introducing greter risk of implosion) So that article alone suggests that the faceplate isn't there to stop debris at all (although doubtless along with the sealant material it helps). Still, it'd be nice to hear from people who've actully been involved in manufacturing CRTs I suppose! I'm tempted to say that replacing the sealant material on anything past 1970 or so is a safe thing to do - providing nobody goes dropping the CRT on its face, and providing that nobody tries smacking the face of the CRT with something heavy. Still, that's just my judgement... As for implosion risk in using heated wire to remove the faceplate... Hmm. I was careful where I postioned myself when I removed the plate on the HP 250 screen just in case, plus I went evenly from the corners a bit at a time. Given the huge thickness of the CRT face* I would be surprised if heated wire could cause it to break (the faceplate's another matter as it's so thin, which is really why I was being careful about the heating). Just a case of being careful though I suppose. *I recall breaking TV CRTs apart as a kid and the glass at the front is amazingly thick. Bricks bounce off happily without damaging the screen at all. cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 4 16:30:51 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 15:30:51 -0600 Subject: Cleaning Copper Contacts? In-Reply-To: <200510042122.OAA08571@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200510042122.OAA08571@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <4342F48B.5000505@jetnet.ab.ca> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi > I will repeat again. Coat with DC#4. > I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. It works >with tinplate over copper. It even works with bare copper. >As long as the surface is cleaned first of salts and such, >it will protect for years. >Dwight > > > I guess we need a 'how to clean' faq here too. All I know is NOT to throw the PCB in the dishwasher. :) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Oct 4 16:33:34 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "screen mold" Message-ID: <200510042133.OAA08575@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Andreas Holz wrote: > >> I'm experiencing some monitors in the last time, mostly, but not only >> from HP, with the effect of some kind of small bubbles or shell-like >> failures in the flront part of the crt-tube. Somewhere I read the >> description of "screen mold". > >Nowadays the consensus is leaning towards a delamination process. > >> Does someone knows this effect, has an explanation of it's source (is it >> really temperature related?) or how to avoid this problem. Some of these >> monitors (esp. of a HP9845) are looking so badly, that I don't dare to >> power on. > >Most likely it is the protective cover over the CRT which is delaminating >from the CRT face. I don't currently know of a way to prevent this. It >seems to happen randomly. > Hi I think it is from evaporation of plasticizers in the layer. As they evaporate over time, the material shrinks. This causes a void. The void provides another path for the plasticizer to evaporate and a local stress point. This forms the stem like channel feature. As time goes on, plasticizer evaporates from the edges of the channels. This causes new stems to radiate outward. This makes the typical fern leaf look. I would guess the biggest difference between different manufactures is either a different material or different sealing of the edges. The fogging of the material is most likely moisture from the air. Dwight From jhoger at pobox.com Tue Oct 4 16:47:33 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 14:47:33 -0700 Subject: Is this an acceptable VCM listing? In-Reply-To: <4342D57B.3020308@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200510041853.j94IrJAZ018404@onyx.spiritone.com> <4342D57B.3020308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1128462453.15333.10.camel@aragorn> On Tue, 2005-10-04 at 13:18 -0600, woodelf wrote: > The $ 999,999 is the gotya. I say that you need a comercial section > but they > need to pay someting for FREE - ADVERTISING. How about on all auctions just collect a %age of the initial listing price for items that do not sell. This would solve the free advertising problem, as well as over-pricing items at $999,999 (probably these are the same problem). On the other hand, folks will be less likely to list items they are not certain will sell. On the gripping hand, more auctions will have listing prices at $.01 letting the market set the price. -- John. From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Oct 4 17:03:07 2005 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 17:03:07 -0500 Subject: Non-responsive hard drive - help? In-Reply-To: <200510042150.j94LoV2U068943@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510042150.j94LoV2U068943@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 16:50 -0500 10/4/05, tony wrote: > > >> Drive *does* make spinning-up and head-seeking noises (once >> per power-up). LED indicating drive attention does flash, *once*, as > >Does it sound as though it's staying spun-up? It doesn't make spin-down >noises I hope. Not until powered down, at which point it makes the noises I'd expect (taking 2-3 times as long to spin down as the fan, for example). >Those 'wings' are heatsink tabs, used to conduct heat away from the >actual chip. It's a standard package for power driver type chips. I would >guess this chip is either the spindle motor or head actuator driver. Thought I was being clever, but Oh Well. >As to whether it should get hot. Well, it is a power device, so it would >get warm. But if it gets too hot to keep your finger on it for any length >of time, then I'd start worrying. The chip may not be faulty of course, >it might be a problem (like a shorted load, or an incorrect drive signal) >elsewhere in the unit. Both the head seek and the platter spin noises are consistent with what I recall from before the failure, so I'll bet that chip is OK. It's warm, but I can keep my finger on it for seconds at a time, with no blisters arising. Started looking for similar drives to mail-order for a controller board-swap. Thanks to all responses so far! Progress about to come to a screeching halt on the project, as I'm about to hit the road again. Sigh. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 15:14:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:14:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <4342E28A.6040706@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Oct 4, 5 08:14:02 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Actually it doesn't. I am looking at a monochrome green screen at the > > moment. OK, I do have colour monitors around here.... > > I know I've asked this before but I don't recall the answer. What > exactly *do* you use to connect to the Internet? I am sure I described it a couple of weeks ago here, and I've not downgraded [1] since then [1] That is, to sowmthing without schematics. OK, here you are again : A much-hacked IBM PC/AT (8MHz system board). The mainboard has a 486 kludgeboard in the 80286 socket. I've added a couple of EPROMs and a bit of logic to overlay the last 8K of the bios, so I could modify the hard disk parameter table. Thers's 512K on the mainabord. Abother I/O card adds the 128K to bring it up to 640K + anothet 1.5M extended memory + 2 serial ports (16550s, of course, I want to give this processor all the help it can get) and a parallel port. Another expansion board started off life as an IBM 128K card. I figured out it could be populated with 2 rows of 256K bit DRAMs, and a bit of extra logic, and turned it into a 1M card. Although all the traces for this were there, etched on the board, I can't find any mention of this in the TechRef. And another board adds a further 2M of RAM. There's an original IBM MDA board linked to a 5151 greenscreen monitor. And a Colorgraph+ (Enhanced CGA card, with enough RAM for 640*200 in 8 colours, pity nothing supports it). That's linked to an NEC monitor that was used with an Apple ][, which I modifed to add the intensity line. The disk controller is an early IDE card, a few TTL parts, a couple of PALs and a floppy controller chip. I added a daughterboard containing a couple more TTL chips to flash the frontpanel drive LED when the hard disk was accessed. It's linked to the original IBM 1.2M drive and a Teac 1.44m 3.5" drive. And to a 1.3G IDE winchester. TO actually connect to the phoneline, I've got an old USR Sportster 14K4 modem. That, and the hard drive, are the only parts of the system I don't have full schemaitcs for. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 4 17:30:19 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 23:30:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: References: <43419AE1.9090503@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 3, 5 09:56:01 pm Message-ID: <50482.82.152.112.73.1128465019.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Mon, October 3, 2005 10:29 pm, Tony Duell said: > > I am pretty sure RML never made or badged a monitor for the 380Z. The > We had 380Z's at school (heck, that's over 20 years ago!), they had those > little 9" Hitachi monitors that come in a roughly cubical metal case on > them. Yup, same here and I've got one of those working as monitor for my homebrew wooden cased Nascom II....you need to be able to view pictures so you can see it on the website :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 15:24:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:24:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <4342E2C6.2060505@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 4, 5 09:15:02 pm Message-ID: > Agreed - all the info I've seen suggests you provided your own. Just not > sure if the 480Z was the same deal or not (given that it's a much more > stylised machine) And remember that the 40 column text VDU card in the 380Z even had the standard Astec modulator can on it, to link to a TV aerial input :-). > > > The > > We had 380Z's at school (heck, that's over 20 years ago!), they had those > > little 9" Hitachi monitors that come in a roughly cubical metal case on > > them. > > Ahh, yep, I got one of those with my 380Z. Perhaps they were a standard > option (contrary to what I assumed above), or they were an option like > that when RML approached schools (or vice versa). I got my 380Z at a radio rally, and it didn't come with any monitor at all. Not that that bothered me. My guess is that RML did sell those Hitachi monitors for a time, or at least the standard supplier to schools listed them (did schools deal direct with RML, or was there a dealer in between?). They were common on many machines at that time, of course. And AFAIK that monitor was not even badged by RML I would be suprised if RML started designing monitors for the 480Z. More likely, if they supplied anything at all with the RML name on it, it was a Microvitec Cub of some flavour. > > > While I was at school, we bought one RGB output module for the RGB board > > (you know, the bracket on the back with 4 BNCs). > > Reminds me, I need to fix mine (output module) on my 380Z. Can't > remember the details now (and it's a few thousand miles away :) but I'm > reasonably sure I remember it blowing the fuse in the PSU on the -12V > line when the board was connected, but the machine was fine otherwise. > Never got around to fixing it before I left the UK, but I don't imagine > there's much on the board to go wrong! Well, the -12V line is used to power the emitter load of the 3 output transsitors, but said load is 3k3 or something. Most likely, there's a shorted decoupling capacitor on the board somewhere if it is blowing the -12V fuse. > > Of course it could be a fault with the RGB board itself I suppose... What RGB board? The Hi-Res board has a 8 bit output, that's encoded to RGB by 3 resistor DACs on the little board behind the BNC sockets. Isn't that the board we're talking about. > > > It didn't come with a > > monitor, and AFAIK none was speficially recomended. I do remember > > dismantling the school's Barco colour monitor, and armed with a circuit > > diagram, adding RGB inputs (Back then, schools were not so dumbed down > > that the kids weren't allowed to do anything even moderately dangerous, > > thankfully!) > > Heh, that's still pretty cool though. I imagine most schools of the time I dod remember learning a lot about monitors..... > wouldn't want people taking expensive bits of kit apart (even if they > thought the person was competent).The ones I went to would have extended > to people making up their own cables etc. I think, but not delving > inside equipment! FOr some odd reason they trusted me to take all sorts of fun toys apart and do intenral modifications. And to doing things after school that these days would be totally banned (making the CRT was one such project, I suspect :-(). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 15:28:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:28:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold") In-Reply-To: <4342E8BC.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 4, 5 09:40:28 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > At least one person here has used a thin wire to cut the bonding, then > > removed the front piece of glass, cleaned it up, and rebonded it. It > > sounds like a dangerous project to me, not only because the CRT could > > implode while you're cutting it, but also if you don't get the bonding > > strong enough when you put it back together and the CRT then > > subsequnectly implodes, the results would be very unpleasant. > > That does beg the question of under what conditions a CRT implodes. Do > age-related implosions happen (or implosions for other reasons other > than mechanical shock)? I've never heard of a CRT imploding, except for > when physical damage has occured to it - but presumably it does happen. It is uncommon, but it's so unpleasant if it does happen that they have to take precaustions against it. Before the introduction of rimbanded CRTs in the 60's (1964 is the date I have for this), all TVs had a piece of safety glass in front of the CRT. And remember this was long before the current culture of blaming somebody if things go wrong. I am told, BTW, that several radar operates in planes in the last war were killed when the plane had a heavy landing, the radar display CRT imploded, and they were litterally shot in the face by bits of the electron gun. Glass can fracture for no apparent reason. It's possible for there to be internal stresses, and one day it just fails. You don't want to be arround if this happens to an unprotected CRT > > In other words what are the risks - or is it a case of over-engineering > in the first place to make sure (to a reasonable extent) that there are > no problems out in user-land? > > Also curious as to the extent of the outward blast / debris field (that > sounds horribly technical but I can't think of a better phrase!) when a > CRT does implode. I'd *assume* glass just extends outward a foot or two, > but happy to be corrected there! (of course an explosion would be a > rather different matter) It's not much diffeerent to an explosion. The gl;ass collapses inwards, but it doesn't when it gets to the middle. It carries on, and flies all over the place. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 15:34:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:34:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <4342F341.8000400@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 4, 5 10:25:21 pm Message-ID: > > J.C. Wren wrote: > > Some useful information here: > > http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtcir > > Rats, I almost checked there before posting too, but didn't recall any > such section on the site! > > Interestingly, that info implies that it's the steel strap around the > perimeter of the CRT's face which does the implosion protection, and That strip, normally called the rimband over here, is certainly for implosion protection in some CRTs. But I suspect the double faceplate is part of the implosion protection too. > bit at a time. Given the huge thickness of the CRT face* I would be > surprised if heated wire could cause it to break (the faceplate's Actually, one of the easiest ways to get stresses in glass is from uneven heating/cooling (but I suspect the wire you used didn't get the glass itself anything like hot enough for this to be a problem). > another matter as it's so thin, which is really why I was being careful > about the heating). Just a case of being careful though I suppose. > > *I recall breaking TV CRTs apart as a kid and the glass at the front is > amazingly thick. Bricks bounce off happily without damaging the screen > at all. Work out the force on the faceplate due to air pressure (which you can assume is 14 pounds per square inch). It's pretty large for TV-sized CRTs! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 15:37:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:37:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <50482.82.152.112.73.1128465019.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> from "Witchy" at Oct 4, 5 11:30:19 pm Message-ID: > > I am pretty sure RML never made or badged a monitor for the 380Z. The > > We had 380Z's at school (heck, that's over 20 years ago!), they had those > > little 9" Hitachi monitors that come in a roughly cubical metal case on > > them. > > Yup, same here and I've got one of those working as monitor for my > homebrew wooden cased Nascom II....you need to be able to view pictures so > you can see it on the website :) It's OK, I know what they look like. I have one somewhere. I think I even have a schematic somewhere too... The common model had an approximately 9" CRT. I think I once saw a similar unit with a 12" CRT, the case being somewhat larger in all directions. I think the internals were all much the same, though. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 4 18:12:03 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 00:12:03 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43430C43.7090404@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>>I am pretty sure RML never made or badged a monitor for the 380Z. The >>>We had 380Z's at school (heck, that's over 20 years ago!), they had those >>>little 9" Hitachi monitors that come in a roughly cubical metal case on >>>them. > The common model had an approximately 9" CRT. I think I once saw a > similar unit with a 12" CRT, the case being somewhat larger in all > directions. I think the internals were all much the same, though. Incidentally, I always wondered if those 9" screens started life as CCTV monitors and Hitachi adapted them for computer applications (assuming they'd even need any adapting). Somehow they just have that old CCTV look about them... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 4 18:19:44 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 00:19:44 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43430E10.4030302@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>Reminds me, I need to fix mine (output module) on my 380Z. Can't >>remember the details now (and it's a few thousand miles away :) but I'm >>reasonably sure I remember it blowing the fuse in the PSU on the -12V >>line when the board was connected, but the machine was fine otherwise. >>Never got around to fixing it before I left the UK, but I don't imagine >>there's much on the board to go wrong! > > > Well, the -12V line is used to power the emitter load of the 3 output > transsitors, but said load is 3k3 or something. Most likely, there's a > shorted decoupling capacitor on the board somewhere if it is blowing the > -12V fuse. > > >>Of course it could be a fault with the RGB board itself I suppose... > > > What RGB board? The Hi-Res board has a 8 bit output, that's encoded to > RGB by 3 resistor DACs on the little board behind the BNC sockets. Isn't > that the board we're talking about. Ahh, if that's just RGB between the Hi-res board and the BNC board, then it likely is just a fault on the BNC board. I'd just wondered if there was some sort of signal passing back to the hi-res board from the BNC board such that the actual fault was somewhere in the hi-res board itself but that it'd work fine without the BNC adapter board plugged in. Sorting it out is one of the first things on the pile when I get home (where at least I've got manuals and everything to hand!) as I fixed various other problems with it, so it'd be nice to have a 100% operational system again. Heck, I even have the key for it ;) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 4 18:25:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 00:25:26 +0100 Subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43430F66.8090609@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I am told, BTW, that several radar operates in planes in the last war > were killed when the plane had a heavy landing, the radar display CRT > imploded, and they were litterally shot in the face by bits of the > electron gun. Not something I'd heard before - but I can certainly believe that; such displays tend to be pretty large in diameter and of course are flat-faced so must be naturally pretty weak toward the centre of the face. > It's not much diffeerent to an explosion. The gl;ass collapses inwards, > but it doesn't when it gets to the middle. It carries on, and flies all > over the place. Ouch! I presume most of the blast goes backwards though where the glass is thinner. (It's interesting speculating about all of this - it's not a topic I've seen crop up on the list before now) cheers Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 18:41:43 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 19:41:43 -0400 Subject: Is this an acceptable VCM listing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43431337.40806@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=2024 > > I don't think it is. > I'm curious of other people's opinion on it. > > I don't think it is either. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 18:45:19 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 19:45:19 -0400 Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <200510042038.NAA17120@floodgap.com> References: <200510042038.NAA17120@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4343140F.1080307@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>Actually it doesn't. I am looking at a monochrome green screen at the >>>moment. OK, I do have colour monitors around here.... >> >>I know I've asked this before but I don't recall the answer. What >>exactly *do* you use to connect to the Internet? > > > Smoke signals. Checksum's a pain, though. Hmmm... Encrypted IP over smoke signals. Do I feel an RFC coming on? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 18:46:15 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 19:46:15 -0400 Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051004164508.03ad4e78@mail.30below.com> References: <4342E28A.6040706@gjcp.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20051004164508.03ad4e78@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <43431447.207@gmail.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Cameron Kaiser may have mentioned these words: > >> > > Actually it doesn't. I am looking at a monochrome green screen at the >> > > moment. OK, I do have colour monitors around here.... >> > >> > I know I've asked this before but I don't recall the answer. What >> > exactly *do* you use to connect to the Internet? >> >> Smoke signals. Checksum's a pain, though. > > > I thought it was TCP/CP; RFC1149. > > Yes, it has been implemented, believe it or not. > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt > > Just in case you've not heard of it. ;-) 1149 isn't realy smoke signals, though. I think IP over smoke signals would be even more interesting. And what of RFC 2549? Peace... Sridhar From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Oct 4 19:00:04 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 19:00:04 -0500 Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4342E28A.6040706@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20051004190004.1103f2ae.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:14:57 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Actually it doesn't. I am looking at a monochrome green screen at > > > the moment. OK, I do have colour monitors around here.... > > > > I know I've asked this before but I don't recall the answer. What > > exactly *do* you use to connect to the Internet? > > I am sure I described it a couple of weeks ago here, and I've not > downgraded [1] since then > > [1] That is, to sowmthing without schematics. > > OK, here you are again : > > A much-hacked IBM PC/AT (8MHz system board). The mainboard has a 486 > kludgeboard in the 80286 socket. I've added a couple of EPROMs and a > bit of logic to overlay the last 8K of the bios, so I could modify the > hard disk parameter table. > There is a utility called 'hackrom' that I used to use to modify the hard disk paramater tables on machines of that vintage. The software pulls a binary image of the BIOS out into a file, let you edit the table, and split to odd/even, and burn back to ROMs to replace the original. You only had to open the case once to pull the stock ROMs and plug in the new ones. I used it one time to shoehorn in a 15 meg hard drive on a '286 system. You could basically 'replace' the parameters on any table entry with your chosen new numbers. Why did you need to add/overlay the BIOS to modify the parameter table? > There's an original IBM MDA board linked to a 5151 greenscreen > monitor. And a Colorgraph+ (Enhanced CGA card, with enough RAM for > 640*200 in 8 colours, pity nothing supports it). That's linked to an > NEC monitor that was used with an Apple ][, which I modifed to add the > intensity line. > Good choice in the MDA card. Damned crisp characters and a rock steady card. I went for years with nothing more. You don't have an IBM EGA card for the color?? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 4 19:20:14 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 20:20:14 -0400 Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff Message-ID: <0INV00GF729L6D3L@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 19:45:19 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>>Actually it doesn't. I am looking at a monochrome green screen at the >>>>moment. OK, I do have colour monitors around here.... >>> >>>I know I've asked this before but I don't recall the answer. What >>>exactly *do* you use to connect to the Internet? >> >> >> Smoke signals. Checksum's a pain, though. > >Hmmm... Encrypted IP over smoke signals. Do I feel an RFC coming on? > >Peace... Sridhar IP over Morse (CW) nearest to smoke but, still electronic! I think I'll run for cover.. NOW. Allison From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Oct 4 19:22:04 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 20:22:04 -0400 Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <4342E8BC.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4342E8BC.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43431CAC.4070608@atarimuseum.com> I'll never seen anything horrendous in so far as implosions. I used to service Mac's "back in the day" and had to replace a few CRT's on the original Macs. Apple would send the replacement monitor in a box and inside was another box that you placed the whole mac inside of, you'd follow the standard discharge and then purposely snap the tip of the neck off the back of the monitor before closing up the box and disposing of it, it was a scary moment the first time, but just a quick zip of air and it was done, never had anything happen, did a few dozen monitor replacements and disposals. Curt Jules Richardson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> At least one person here has used a thin wire to cut the bonding, >> then removed the front piece of glass, cleaned it up, and rebonded >> it. It sounds like a dangerous project to me, not only because the >> CRT could implode while you're cutting it, but also if you don't get >> the bonding strong enough when you put it back together and the CRT >> then subsequnectly implodes, the results would be very unpleasant. > > > That does beg the question of under what conditions a CRT implodes. Do > age-related implosions happen (or implosions for other reasons other > than mechanical shock)? I've never heard of a CRT imploding, except > for when physical damage has occured to it - but presumably it does > happen. > > In other words what are the risks - or is it a case of > over-engineering in the first place to make sure (to a reasonable > extent) that there are no problems out in user-land? > > Also curious as to the extent of the outward blast / debris field > (that sounds horribly technical but I can't think of a better phrase!) > when a CRT does implode. I'd *assume* glass just extends outward a > foot or two, but happy to be corrected there! (of course an explosion > would be a rather different matter) > > Actually, is the faceplate actually there for dsamage limitation > reasons - or in fact there to help prevent implosion in the first > place from mechanical shock? I imagine that coupled with the sealant > layer it provides a reasonable damper if the CRT is dropped with > face-down. > > Any people on the list involved (past or present)with CRT manufacture > who can provide more information? > > cheers > > Jules > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/118 - Release Date: 10/3/2005 From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 19:25:00 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 20:25:00 -0400 Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <0INV00GF729L6D3L@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0INV00GF729L6D3L@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43431D5C.7080303@gmail.com> Allison wrote: >>>>>Actually it doesn't. I am looking at a monochrome green screen at the >>>>>moment. OK, I do have colour monitors around here.... >>>> >>>>I know I've asked this before but I don't recall the answer. What >>>>exactly *do* you use to connect to the Internet? >>> >>> >>>Smoke signals. Checksum's a pain, though. >> >>Hmmm... Encrypted IP over smoke signals. Do I feel an RFC coming on? > > > IP over Morse (CW) nearest to smoke but, still electronic! > > I think I'll run for cover.. NOW. I live in Morse's hometown. 8-) I could never get the "feel" for Morse Code, though. Peace... Sridhar From pechter at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 19:39:39 2005 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 20:39:39 -0400 Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <43431CAC.4070608@atarimuseum.com> References: <4342E8BC.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <43431CAC.4070608@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <434320CB.1000402@gmail.com> That's how I scrapped out VT100 tubes at DEC and elsewhere. That's kind of a controlled failure since the suction pretty much is controlled by the small input at the back of the neck. An uncontrolled failure could be different. I've seen one old 1960 vintage tv blow up and the glass was retained by a plastic or glass sheet across the black and white tube. Never saw anything like a real accident, though. Bill Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I'll never seen anything horrendous in so far as implosions. I used > to service Mac's "back in the day" and had to replace a few CRT's on > the original Macs. Apple would send the replacement monitor in a box > and inside was another box that you placed the whole mac inside of, > you'd follow the standard discharge and then purposely snap the tip of > the neck off the back of the monitor before closing up the box and > disposing of it, it was a scary moment the first time, but just a > quick zip of air and it was done, never had anything happen, did a few > dozen monitor replacements and disposals. > > > > Curt > > > > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> At least one person here has used a thin wire to cut the bonding, >>> then removed the front piece of glass, cleaned it up, and rebonded >>> it. It sounds like a dangerous project to me, not only because the >>> CRT could implode while you're cutting it, but also if you don't get >>> the bonding strong enough when you put it back together and the CRT >>> then subsequnectly implodes, the results would be very unpleasant. >> >> >> >> That does beg the question of under what conditions a CRT implodes. >> Do age-related implosions happen (or implosions for other reasons >> other than mechanical shock)? I've never heard of a CRT imploding, >> except for when physical damage has occured to it - but presumably it >> does happen. >> >> In other words what are the risks - or is it a case of >> over-engineering in the first place to make sure (to a reasonable >> extent) that there are no problems out in user-land? >> >> Also curious as to the extent of the outward blast / debris field >> (that sounds horribly technical but I can't think of a better >> phrase!) when a CRT does implode. I'd *assume* glass just extends >> outward a foot or two, but happy to be corrected there! (of course an >> explosion would be a rather different matter) >> >> Actually, is the faceplate actually there for dsamage limitation >> reasons - or in fact there to help prevent implosion in the first >> place from mechanical shock? I imagine that coupled with the sealant >> layer it provides a reasonable damper if the CRT is dropped with >> face-down. >> >> Any people on the list involved (past or present)with CRT manufacture >> who can provide more information? >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> >> > > From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 4 19:39:49 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 01:39:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRT implosions Message-ID: <20051005003949.55133.qmail@web25007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Interestingly, that info implies that it's the steel strap > around the perimeter of the CRT's face which does the implosion > protection, and that the laminated faceplate is purely an > additional protection against scratches etc. Glass is very strong under compression but not strong under tension, the forces on an unbanded CRT leave the glass on the outside edge of the face under tension as the forces from the air pressure on the back and the front of the envelope are concentrated there. The steel band compresses the whole tube so that no part of the glass is under tension. That said I do have tubes that don't have this band but they are all shallow angle tubes, much less than 60 degrees. > So that article alone suggests that the faceplate isn't there > to stop debris at all The faceplate is there to stop debris, it really doesn't need to be any thicker than the rest of the envelope but is made so that if the envelope fails it will be inside the set that the failure happens. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Oct 4 19:38:09 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 20:38:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <43431CAC.4070608@atarimuseum.com> References: <4342E8BC.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <43431CAC.4070608@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200510050044.UAA22300@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I'll never seen anything horrendous in so far as implosions. I used > to service Mac's "back in the day" and had to replace a few CRT's on > the original Macs. Apple would send the replacement monitor in a box > and inside was another box that you placed the whole mac inside of, > you'd follow the standard discharge and then purposely snap the tip > of the neck off the back of the monitor before closing up the box and > disposing of it, it was a scary moment the first time, but just a > quick zip of air and it was done, never had anything happen, did a > few dozen monitor replacements and disposals. Yeah, a small crack in a not-particularly-stressed part of the tube is rather unlikely to produce spectacular implosions. (The evacuation pinch-off is about as unstressed a part of the tube as it gets.) I remember, as a kid, going to the village dump. There were usually some dead TVs with the cases gone, and I'd throw a rock into the CRTs from as far away as I could throw rocks (even then I'd heard of CRT implosion danger). Never seemed to be much more dramatic than a glass vessel of similar size and shape with no pressure differential, but of course I was rather far away. It also could be that a thrown rock is not the sort of stress that produces implosion failures. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Tue Oct 4 19:50:28 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:50:28 +1300 Subject: CRT implosions References: <4342E8BC.8080402@yahoo.co.uk><4342EF23.2010906@jcwren.com> <4342F341.8000400@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <00cf01c5c946$c78c46c0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ref the CRT 'mould' issue. The problem is NOT related to the bond between the CRT face and the safety faceplate at all. Any attempt to remove the CRT safety glass would be foolish in the extreme. I don't believe you could remove the bonded safety glass without permanent damage to the crt and probably yourself - except perhaps on very early TV CRTs, (where the safety glass was separate anyway) and I doubt there are any of those in vintage computer systems under discussion The CRTs in question have an ADDITIONAL anti-glare or similar screen attached to the front of the (permanently) bonded safety glass faceplate with some sort of silicon rubber type adhesive. The sealant/adhesive between the bonded safety glass on the front of the CRT and this additional anti-glare (or similar cosmetic etc effect) glass screen is where the problem occurrs. That said, caution is always required when working with CRTs, but the hot wire technique works well to get this issue sorted. DaveB, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 10:25 AM Subject: Re: CRT implosions > J.C. Wren wrote: >> Some useful information here: >> http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtcir > > Rats, I almost checked there before posting too, but didn't recall > any such section on the site! > > Interestingly, that info implies that it's the steel strap around > the perimeter of the CRT's face which does the implosion protection, > and that the laminated faceplate is purely an additional protection > against scratches etc. damaging the CRT itself (and therefore > introducing greter risk of implosion) > > So that article alone suggests that the faceplate isn't there to > stop debris at all (although doubtless along with the sealant > material it helps). > > Still, it'd be nice to hear from people who've actully been involved > in manufacturing CRTs I suppose! > > I'm tempted to say that replacing the sealant material on anything > past 1970 or so is a safe thing to do - providing nobody goes > dropping the CRT on its face, and providing that nobody tries > smacking the face of the CRT with something heavy. Still, that's > just my judgement... > > As for implosion risk in using heated wire to remove the > faceplate... Hmm. I was careful where I postioned myself when I > removed the plate on the HP 250 screen just in case, plus I went > evenly from the corners a bit at a time. Given the huge thickness of > the CRT face* I would be surprised if heated wire could cause it to > break (the faceplate's another matter as it's so thin, which is > really why I was being careful about the heating). Just a case of > being careful though I suppose. > > *I recall breaking TV CRTs apart as a kid and the glass at the front > is amazingly thick. Bricks bounce off happily without damaging the > screen at all. > > cheers > > Jules > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/118 - Release Date: > 3/10/2005 > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/118 - Release Date: 3/10/2005 From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 4 19:53:38 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 17:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trip to Brooklyn Message-ID: I'll be in NY, NY in the Brooklyn area starting tomorrow night very late (my flight gets in around midnight) and possibly through until Friday morning. I'm consulting on a movie shoot involving an ASR32. I'm not sure what my schedule will be, but if anyone wants to meet up (if I have time) then please contact me privately. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 4 19:55:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 17:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is this an acceptable VCM listing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > > Hmm, I'll let it slide because I'm too lazy right now to investigate > > And VCM makes another step towards being just like eBay Oh, that hurt. Ok, I expunged the offending auction. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 4 20:00:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 18:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another IMSAI 8080 on VCM Message-ID: Yet another IMSAI 8080 has been listed on the VCM. The last one went for a really good price at $990, but this one is listed for $850 as a straight sale! http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/view.cfm?ad=2023 I'd say that's at least a couple hundred bucks under current market value. Get it while you can... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Oct 4 20:02:16 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 18:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CRT implosions Message-ID: <200510050102.SAA08643@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "der Mouse" > >> I'll never seen anything horrendous in so far as implosions. I used >> to service Mac's "back in the day" and had to replace a few CRT's on >> the original Macs. Apple would send the replacement monitor in a box >> and inside was another box that you placed the whole mac inside of, >> you'd follow the standard discharge and then purposely snap the tip >> of the neck off the back of the monitor before closing up the box and >> disposing of it, it was a scary moment the first time, but just a >> quick zip of air and it was done, never had anything happen, did a >> few dozen monitor replacements and disposals. > >Yeah, a small crack in a not-particularly-stressed part of the tube is >rather unlikely to produce spectacular implosions. (The evacuation >pinch-off is about as unstressed a part of the tube as it gets.) > >I remember, as a kid, going to the village dump. There were usually >some dead TVs with the cases gone, and I'd throw a rock into the CRTs >from as far away as I could throw rocks (even then I'd heard of CRT >implosion danger). Never seemed to be much more dramatic than a glass >vessel of similar size and shape with no pressure differential, but of >course I was rather far away. It also could be that a thrown rock is >not the sort of stress that produces implosion failures. > Hi It usually takes a break such that the gun assembly goes into the tube. This requires that it has a ring fracture somewhere in front of the yoke. The assembly is then pulled by 14.5 lbs towards the front screen. While some vacuum is lost, as the gun is excelerating, if the diameter of the assembly of gun and glass is large enough, it will be moving quite fast before much vacuum is lost. Assume that the break is such that a 12 inch diameter chunk, including the neck breaks. Imaging that piece being pushed by about 1800 lbs of force. How fast would you expect it to be moving? Not likely to break this way in most cases. It really depends on stress, scratches and luck. Dwight From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 20:03:07 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 18:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Texas Instruments 980A minicomputer?? Message-ID: <20051005010308.60143.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hmmm, Someone has a Texas Instrument 980A Computer, with two Diablo Series 30 Hard Drives, circa 1972, to offer. Do I want it?? __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 18:01:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 00:01:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <43430C43.7090404@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 5, 5 00:12:03 am Message-ID: > Incidentally, I always wondered if those 9" screens started life as CCTV > monitors and Hitachi adapted them for computer applications (assuming > they'd even need any adapting). Somehow they just have that old CCTV > look about them... They are plain composite video monitors. Equally suitable for CCTV or computer output. -tony From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Oct 4 16:21:17 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:21:17 +0000 Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: References: <4342F341.8000400@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 4, 5 10:25:21 pm Message-ID: <20051005011409.JKZZ26550.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > Interestingly, that info implies that it's the steel strap around the > > perimeter of the CRT's face which does the implosion protection, and > > That strip, normally called the rimband over here, is certainly for > implosion protection in some CRTs. But I suspect the double faceplate is > part of the implosion protection too. Now these days, the rimband is the only part of implosion protection. > > bit at a time. Given the huge thickness of the CRT face* I would be > > surprised if heated wire could cause it to break (the faceplate's > > Actually, one of the easiest ways to get stresses in glass is from uneven > heating/cooling (but I suspect the wire you used didn't get the glass > itself anything like hot enough for this to be a problem). Very easy. Lose enough coolant in projector, CRACK!! I have personally seen 3 so far but happen in the action I have not. EXCEPT, I had a neck "drop off" (!!) on blue CRT in our shop displaying test pattern (underscan) on all CRTs. How this could happen? > Work out the force on the faceplate due to air pressure (which you can > assume is 14 pounds per square inch). It's pretty large for TV-sized CRTs! Several tonnes even on little ones 14"-20", even MORE on 36" CRT. The largest CRT that was is hitachi 40" TV. Cheers, Wizard > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 18:05:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 00:05:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <43430E10.4030302@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 5, 5 00:19:44 am Message-ID: > > What RGB board? The Hi-Res board has a 8 bit output, that's encoded to > > RGB by 3 resistor DACs on the little board behind the BNC sockets. Isn't > > that the board we're talking about. > > Ahh, if that's just RGB between the Hi-res board and the BNC board, then Not really RGB... There's a colour lookup table (a couple of TTL RAMs) on the hi-res board. It outputs an 8 bit value depending on its contents and the contents of the video memory for the current pixel. The output of that lookup table goes to 2 places. The first is an 8 bit DAC on the hi-res board. That's used for the monochrome greyscale output. The other is to the 26 pin connector. To that you can connect the RGB output board or a PAL encoder (which I have never seen). The RGB output board, which is mounted on the bracket for the BNC connectors, is 3 simple DACs (3 bits each for R and G, 2 bits for B) and a circuit to produce sync-on-green if you need it. > it likely is just a fault on the BNC board. I'd just wondered if there > was some sort of signal passing back to the hi-res board from the BNC No. > board such that the actual fault was somewhere in the hi-res board > itself but that it'd work fine without the BNC adapter board plugged in. If the hi-res board works without the RGB board, then the problem is on the latter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 18:07:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 00:07:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold") In-Reply-To: <43430F66.8090609@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 5, 5 00:25:26 am Message-ID: > > I am told, BTW, that several radar operates in planes in the last war > > were killed when the plane had a heavy landing, the radar display CRT > > imploded, and they were litterally shot in the face by bits of the > > electron gun. > > Not something I'd heard before - but I can certainly believe that; such > displays tend to be pretty large in diameter and of course are > flat-faced so must be naturally pretty weak toward the centre of the face. Actually, no. The standard radar CRT over here at that time was the VCR97. That's a 6" diaameter thing with a fairly convex screen. (Incidentally, VCR stood for Valve, Cathode Ray, or so I am told). ObClassiccmp. After the war, there were a lot of VCR97s sold off as surplus. And that was the CRT used for the Williams Tube memory on the Manchester Mk 1. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 4 20:18:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 18:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <4342EF23.2010906@jcwren.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, J.C. Wren wrote: > Some useful information here: > http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtcir Generally good information. What you should impart from this is that you probably shouldn't worry about a CRT imploding (but exercise prudent caution always of course). >From the article: "If I was handling these things in such a way as to have the possibility of dropping one, I'd insist on body armor and face protection. And if it involves a picture tube, I insist on competent trained professionals for service." I work with CRTs all day on some days (unfortunately) and once in a while a monitor or TV will fall off the pallet I'm stacking, from heights of anywhere from a couple feet to 6-7 feet. In most cases, the case gets cracked up pretty bad but the CRT remains intact. If anything does break, it's usually the neck or stem, and you can hear the hiss of the air rushing into the back of the tube: nothing to worry about there. On rare occasions, the TV or monitor falls flat on its face, and that usually means get out the broom and dustpan to sweep up the shattered shards of glass, but always within the confines of a small pile no larger than the size of the CRT itself; glass does NOT go shooting off in all directions. Basically, I'm generally in awe of the durability of CRTs. I've dropped bare CRTs before and they tend to just bounce. I've dropped monitors that then continue to work just fine. So unless you're doing something really weird, fixing the delamination issue on affected CRTs should be a nominally safe endeavour. >From the article: "Conclusion: According to my experience, spectacular picture tube implosions are something like cars in movies that explode upon roll-over, hitting a tree or driving down the cliffs: an urban legend." I concur. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 4 18:12:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 00:12:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <20051004190004.1103f2ae.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Oct 4, 5 07:00:04 pm Message-ID: > > A much-hacked IBM PC/AT (8MHz system board). The mainboard has a 486 > > kludgeboard in the 80286 socket. I've added a couple of EPROMs and a > > bit of logic to overlay the last 8K of the bios, so I could modify the > > hard disk parameter table. > > > > There is a utility called 'hackrom' that I used to use to modify the Remmeber I have the BIOS source listings in the TechRef. Patching the ROMs was not hard... The IBM motherboard had 2 'spare' ROM sockets. Adding a single TTL chip (I think a '20) and a few kludgewires disabled the normal ROMs for the last 8K of their address space and enabled the spare sockets. I even have a little jumper link that when flipped returns the machine to the original BIOS and disables the new ROMs all the time. > Why did you need to add/overlay the BIOS to modify the parameter table? It's an IBM PC?AT, so there's no user-defined drive type. And I wanted a rather bigger driver than was officially supported. > > > There's an original IBM MDA board linked to a 5151 greenscreen > > monitor. And a Colorgraph+ (Enhanced CGA card, with enough RAM for > > 640*200 in 8 colours, pity nothing supports it). That's linked to an > > NEC monitor that was used with an Apple ][, which I modifed to add the > > intensity line. > > > > Good choice in the MDA card. Damned crisp characters and a rock steady > card. I went for years with nothing more. You don't have an IBM EGA > card for the color?? I do have a few EGA cards and monitors, I even have the EGA TechRef. But I wanted to keep custom chips to a minimum... -tony From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 4 20:23:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 18:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <4342F341.8000400@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > As for implosion risk in using heated wire to remove the faceplate... > Hmm. I was careful where I postioned myself when I removed the plate on > the HP 250 screen just in case, plus I went evenly from the corners a > bit at a time. Given the huge thickness of the CRT face* I would be > surprised if heated wire could cause it to break (the faceplate's > another matter as it's so thin, which is really why I was being careful > about the heating). Just a case of being careful though I suppose. I've stored monitors outside in the baking sun during summer for extended periods of time. I've had the CRT heat up so much that it quite literally burned you if you touched the surface. However, none ever spontaneously imploded. My guess is that you'd have to have enough heat that the glass began to melt before it imploded, and even then it wouldn't implode but a gapwould open and the tube would re-atmospherize. Still, if I were to do what Jules did, in the very least I'd wear safety goggles and some leather gloves. > *I recall breaking TV CRTs apart as a kid and the glass at the front is > amazingly thick. Bricks bounce off happily without damaging the screen > at all. Yep. There's 6-8 pounds of lead in a CRT, with the majority of it (90%+) being in the face, which is also by far the thickest part. This is to protect viewers against the X-ray emissions. I imagine it also contributes to the structural strength of the tube. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 4 20:23:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 18:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cleaning Copper Contacts? In-Reply-To: <4342F48B.5000505@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, woodelf wrote: > All I know is NOT to throw the PCB in the dishwasher. :) Oh, bother. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 20:26:07 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 21:26:07 -0400 Subject: Trip to Brooklyn In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43432BAF.50403@gmail.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'll be in NY, NY in the Brooklyn area starting tomorrow night very late > (my flight gets in around midnight) and possibly through until Friday > morning. I'm consulting on a movie shoot involving an ASR32. > > I'm not sure what my schedule will be, but if anyone wants to meet up (if > I have time) then please contact me privately. I might be able to meet up at some point. What do you have in mind? Peace... Sridhar From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 4 20:28:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 18:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is this an acceptable VCM listing? In-Reply-To: <1128462453.15333.10.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > How about on all auctions just collect a %age of the initial listing > price for items that do not sell. This would solve the free advertising > problem, as well as over-pricing items at $999,999 (probably these are > the same problem). On the other hand, folks will be less likely to list > items they are not certain will sell. Patrick and I haven't moved the VCM forward in the timeline that we originally anticipated. We both got very busy with our lives and the VCM was low on our priority list. We wanted it to run and gain a following, but it's obvious that it needs to step up to the next level. I would very much like to move forward with our next phase, in which we'll begin charging for listings and such (which will be, by the way, very reasonable) but Patrick still isn't ready, and with my new responsibilities, I don't have any spare bandwidth these days. Hopefully we'll get back on track in 2006. Until then, enjoy the VCM (on us :) and keep spreading the word. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 20:35:39 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 21:35:39 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Trip to Brooklyn] Message-ID: <43432DEB.10109@gmail.com> Sorry. That was meant to be private. Peace... Sridhar From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 4 20:40:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 18:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <20051005011409.JKZZ26550.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > Several tonnes even on little ones 14"-20", even MORE on 36" CRT. > The largest CRT that was is hitachi 40" TV. I think you mean Mitsubishi, yes? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 4 20:45:19 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 02:45:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cleaning Copper Contacts? Message-ID: <20051005014520.43883.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > All I know is NOT to throw the PCB in the dishwasher. :) Why not? Dishwashing won't hurt a PCB, how do you think they get cleaned after soldering? Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Oct 4 20:51:01 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold") In-Reply-To: <43430F66.8090609@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > Not something I'd heard before - but I can certainly believe that; such > displays tend to be pretty large in diameter and of course are > flat-faced so must be naturally pretty weak toward the centre of the face. The story is pure BS. Even the World War 2 CRTs have very sturdy faces. Plus, any bits that could be flying towards the operator would be stopped by the graticle. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Oct 4 20:53:08 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:53:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <0INV00GF729L6D3L@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: > IP over Morse (CW) nearest to smoke but, still electronic! RCS wrote an RFC for this about five years back, and I think Carl even submitted it, but it did not make the cut. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 4 21:35:29 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 21:35:29 Subject: "screen mold" In-Reply-To: References: <43428A90.6030008@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051004213529.32ffdf58@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:03 PM 10/4/05 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> It's well-known; a lot of our HP equipment suffers from it too. I don't >> think anyone's tracked down the exact cause yet (Sellam, didn't you >> think you could get a sample of the stuff analysed if someone sent you >> some?) > >I was never able to come up with a sample :( Still on the back burner >though. > >> I've seen the same problem on Digico displays, but not much else - it >> seems to mainly get HP screens for some reason. > >And Soroc dumb terminals :) If we can find the commonality between the >HP and Soroc CRTs (manufacturer?) Most of the HP CRTs were made by Clinton Electronics. I can't say who made the Soroc CRTs. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 4 21:38:40 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 21:38:40 Subject: "screen mold" In-Reply-To: References: <43426C97.1030807@topinform.de> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051004213840.32ff4d0c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:47 PM 10/4/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Hello all, > >Are you the guy who's been asking for scheamtics over on hpmuseum.net? > > >> >> I'm experiencing some monitors in the last time, mostly, but not only >> from HP, with the effect of some kind of small bubbles or shell-like >> failures in the flront part of the crt-tube. Somewhere I read the >> description of "screen mold". >> >> Some of them seems to be stored at a lower temperature, more specific at >> changing temperatures, in a garage with temperatures somehow closely >> related to outside. >> >> Does someone knows this effect, has an explanation of it's source (is it > >The CRT faceplate is made of 2 pieces of glass bonded together (I think >it's like a laminated car windscreen, the idea being to support the glass >if the CRT should implode). It would appear that whatever was used for >the bonding either grows mould (fungus-type-stuff) or chemically changes. > >At least one person Loboyko Steve . He also posted a long message about how to get the glass plates apart, clean them and reassemble the whole thing. It should be in the archives. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 4 21:51:18 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 21:51:18 Subject: Panasonic Sr. Partner software? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051004215118.1a6f9d24@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I picked this up a while back but just got around to checking it today. It looks brand new!! The power cord has never been unfolded or had it's tie strap cut off and the paper for the printer is still sealed in heat shrink plastic. The case, CRT and keyboard are all immaculate and the plastic is nice and white not faded to a dirty yellow/brown. The only flaw that I could find is that something caused the carrying case to rub on the bottom of the case and it wore away some of the paint on the bottom of the computer. It even has both manuals with it. BUT all of the original disks are missing. Does anyone have copies of the disks for this thing? I'd LIKE to have originals but I'll settle for copies. I did boot it today with a PC DOS 3.1 disk and it worked flawlessly. It has been upgraded to 512k and a second 360k drive has been added. Joe From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 4 20:56:36 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 02:56:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRT implosions Message-ID: <20051005015637.97360.qmail@web25004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >> Work out the force on the faceplate due to air pressure (which >> you can assume is 14 pounds per square inch). It's pretty large >> for TV-sized CRTs! > Several tonnes even on little ones 14"-20", even MORE on 36" CRT. Just over 1200lbs for a 14" and just _under_ 4T for a 36" Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From pechter at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 21:29:40 2005 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 22:29:40 -0400 Subject: Panasonic Sr. Partner software? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051004215118.1a6f9d24@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051004215118.1a6f9d24@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43433A94.1030901@gmail.com> It's a pretty cool box... I've got one in the basement with a 20gb drive in it (had to replace the original drive a couple of years ago). I'll try to find the original software. I upgraded mine to MS-DOS5 with TCP/IP from Novell or IBM (ran both at different times -- don't remember what's on the box. The faxprinter emulating an MX80 was pretty cool for screen dumps in the field. Telix made it a fair VT100 replacement and the telnet was pretty good with both the Novell and IBM TCP/IP versions. I used it a while until I got my Thinkpad. Bill Joe R. wrote: > I picked this up a while back but just got around to checking it today. >It looks brand new!! The power cord has never been unfolded or had it's tie >strap cut off and the paper for the printer is still sealed in heat shrink >plastic. The case, CRT and keyboard are all immaculate and the plastic is >nice and white not faded to a dirty yellow/brown. The only flaw that I >could find is that something caused the carrying case to rub on the bottom >of the case and it wore away some of the paint on the bottom of the >computer. It even has both manuals with it. BUT all of the original disks >are missing. Does anyone have copies of the disks for this thing? I'd LIKE >to have originals but I'll settle for copies. I did boot it today with a PC >DOS 3.1 disk and it worked flawlessly. It has been upgraded to 512k and a >second 360k drive has been added. > > Joe > > > > From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Oct 4 18:00:29 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 23:00:29 +0000 Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: References: <4342EF23.2010906@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <20051005025320.BYVF2981.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, J.C. Wren wrote: > > > Some useful information here: > > http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtcir > > I work with CRTs all day on some days (unfortunately) and once in a while > a monitor or TV will fall off the pallet I'm stacking, from heights of > anywhere from a couple feet to 6-7 feet. In most cases, the case gets > cracked up pretty bad but the CRT remains intact. If anything does break, > it's usually the neck or stem, and you can hear the hiss of the air > rushing into the back of the tube: nothing to worry about there. On rare > occasions, the TV or monitor falls flat on its face, and that usually > Basically, I'm generally in awe of the durability of CRTs. I've dropped > bare CRTs before and they tend to just bounce. I've dropped monitors that > then continue to work just fine. > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival My coworker was taking something from shelf and unfortunely he snagged a line cord belonging to the 13" tv sitting on top shelf 9 feet up and yanked it down I was only 10 feet away. That tv hit the cement floor dead center on it's face with a glassine shrill "BOOM!" Opened it up, yoke & neck went through inside the CRT leaving huge jagged hole where flare used to be and only mark on face is scratch marks. I will not forget that sound. "BOOM!" of air imploding in a instant. When I am disposing junk CRTs, Yes, I have heard the "whish!" if neck accidently shattered or the long fading sigh of "whoooosh" or a quick whoosh if the little pip broken or a long, long hiss if someone cracked the pip partially. I heard of CRT "explode" but my days was before the time when CRT was just that, big glass bottles without implosion protection. Over the years, I have heard of stories of TVs falling. Some made it through, most didn't make it either CRT shadow mask wrecked or circuit board in pieces or CRT cracked. Only one that stuck was a older philips TV had chassis completely popped out of it's rails and board is completely intact but CRT mask wasn't. Rails is very strong and deep yet board escaped. Wow. Plastic didn't make it very often. BTW, don't drop a Sanyo TV. :) Their plastic is complete cr*p, simply shattered into pieces like a lead glass. I even smashed through Sanyo TV cabinet plastic when hitting it trying to get it to act up with a flat slap. :( Cheers, Wizard From Tim at Rikers.org Tue Oct 4 18:38:49 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 17:38:49 -0600 Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051004164508.03ad4e78@mail.30below.com> References: <4342E28A.6040706@gjcp.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20051004164508.03ad4e78@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <43431289.7030104@Rikers.org> Roger Merchberger wrote: > I thought it was TCP/CP; RFC1149. > > Yes, it has been implemented, believe it or not. > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt I much prefer the more durable RFC-1217 myself. http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1217.txt I've been meaning to run a BZFlag server the runs a simulation, but I've not gotten around to implementing it yet. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From Tim at Rikers.org Tue Oct 4 23:11:09 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 22:11:09 -0600 Subject: Texas Instruments 980A minicomputer?? In-Reply-To: <20051005010308.60143.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051005010308.60143.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4343525D.5020103@Rikers.org> steven stengel wrote: > Hmmm, > > Someone has a Texas Instrument 980A Computer, with two > Diablo Series 30 Hard Drives, circa 1972, to offer. Do > I want it?? Wow. 2 in one day? Sure. I can find you someone that'll want it. I saw one in salvage a while back, but it was gutted so I didn't grab it. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 4 23:11:41 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051004211030.Y23273@shell.lmi.net> > "Conclusion: According to my experience, spectacular picture tube > implosions are something like cars in movies that explode upon roll-over, > hitting a tree or driving down the cliffs: an urban legend." If the car is full of CRTs when it goes off a cliff, then will it explode? Or do you also need saddle tanks and a triggered explosive? From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Oct 4 15:18:51 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:18:51 -0400 Subject: Cromemcos available - Toronto area Message-ID: <01C5C8FF.6ED51080@H88.C223.tor.velocet.net> Anyone in the Toronto area interested in a late model Cromemco or two? 300/400/420s I think, some manuals & spare cards also available, almost free. Can find out more detail if anyone's interested. Pickup only within next two weeks or so; contact me off-list. mike From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Wed Oct 5 01:00:04 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 07:00:04 +0100 Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1128492004.13504.7.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Tue, 2005-10-04 at 18:18 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >From the article: > > "Conclusion: According to my experience, spectacular picture tube > implosions are something like cars in movies that explode upon roll-over, > hitting a tree or driving down the cliffs: an urban legend." c. 1975 Electronics Australia had a series of articles on tube explosions. These were limited (IIRC) to 'rim banded' colour tubes which had a tensioned flat metal band around the screen to take the load. If the tube lost its vacuum the band would explode the screen out into the surrounding room. The initial cause of failure was suggested to be scratches on the screen caused by cleaning (diamond rings etc.) but there wasn't much left to look at. So I would say that such spectacular explosions have occurred, but are unlikely with current tube designs. Of course, maybe some here have colour tubes c. 1975. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From technobug at comcast.net Wed Oct 5 01:17:24 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 23:17:24 -0700 Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <200510050119.j951JNcO072072@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510050119.j951JNcO072072@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On04 Oct 2005 20:39:39 -0400 Bill Pechter wrote: > [...] > > An uncontrolled failure could be different. I've seen one old 1960 > vintage tv blow up and the glass was retained by a plastic or glass > sheet across the black and white tube. > > Never saw anything like a real accident, though. > > Bill > > In the mid 50s they used to show on TV a tape of a ball on a string launched into the face of an unprotected CRT. The neck proceeded through the faceplate and embedded in a 1/2" piece of plywood. Definitely made one careful when playing with the old sets. CRC From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Oct 5 01:38:16 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 02:38:16 -0400 Subject: Cromemcos available - Toronto area In-Reply-To: <01C5C8FF.6ED51080@H88.C223.tor.velocet.net> References: <01C5C8FF.6ED51080@H88.C223.tor.velocet.net> Message-ID: <434374D8.7050701@atarimuseum.com> Why is everything free and for pickup always like 500-1000 miles away, arrrrrgghhhhh! Curt M H Stein wrote: >Anyone in the Toronto area interested in a late model Cromemco or two? >300/400/420s I think, some manuals & spare cards also available, almost >free. Can find out more detail if anyone's interested. > >Pickup only within next two weeks or so; contact me off-list. > >mike > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/118 - Release Date: 10/3/2005 From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Oct 5 03:36:40 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 04:36:40 -0400 Subject: LF: Bigboard disks/software? Message-ID: <20051005083639.PRAZ10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Looking for the CP/M boot disk and related software for the original Furguson BigBoard ... Guy I got mine from last year has been looking, but so far has come up dry on the disks for it (thinks they must have been tossed). Can anyone provide me with images? (which I will of course make available in the archive as well). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cc at corti-net.de Wed Oct 5 03:39:43 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:39:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: "screen mold" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > At least one person here has used a thin wire to cut the bonding, then > removed the front piece of glass, cleaned it up, and rebonded it. It > sounds like a dangerous project to me, not only because the CRT could > implode while you're cutting it, but also if you don't get the bonding > strong enough when you put it back together and the CRT then > subsequnectly implodes, the results would be very unpleasant. The (plastic) faceplate is *not* an implosion protection, it is a contrast and anti-glare plate. All (TV) picture tubes since around 1968 have an implosion protection that is integral to the tube and not simply glued on top of it. Second, a CRT won't just implode on its own (that's a fairy tale). The front screen really needs a very big shock before it cracks. The most fragile part of a CRT is the section from the conus to the neck of the tube. And if the neck should break the rest won't implode, the parts are just too solid. There were several companies in the old days who removed the neck of a used CRT and replaced it with one with a new gun system. Christian From Laurence.Cuffe at ucd.ie Wed Oct 5 03:44:53 2005 From: Laurence.Cuffe at ucd.ie (Laurence Cuffe) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:44:53 +0100 Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff Message-ID: <13c46213ae1b.13ae1b13c462@ucd.ie> > > Yes, it has been implemented, believe it or not. > > > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt This site has pictures of it! http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ All the best Laurence Cuffe From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 03:45:13 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:45:13 +0100 Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <43431D5C.7080303@gmail.com> References: <0INV00GF729L6D3L@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <43431D5C.7080303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640510050145y4bd2a20ai@mail.gmail.com> > I live in Morse's hometown. 8-) > > I could never get the "feel" for Morse Code, though. > > Peace... Sridhar > Oxford ? Dan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 05:45:55 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 06:45:55 -0400 Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <26c11a640510050145y4bd2a20ai@mail.gmail.com> References: <0INV00GF729L6D3L@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <43431D5C.7080303@gmail.com> <26c11a640510050145y4bd2a20ai@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4343AEE3.9020703@gmail.com> Dan Williams wrote: >>I live in Morse's hometown. 8-) >> >>I could never get the "feel" for Morse Code, though. >> >>Peace... Sridhar >> > > > Oxford ? Later in life. Peace... Sridhar From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 5 06:05:28 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (a.carlini at ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:05:28 +0100 Subject: Tony's kit, was: Re: USB Stuff Message-ID: <20051005110528.ZMSN3160.aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> Sridhar wrote: >>Dan Williams wrote: >>>Sridhar wrote: >>>I live in Morse's hometown. 8-) >> Oxford ? >Later in life. Are we entirely sure we're both talking about the same Morse :-) I think Dan might be alluding to Colin Dexter's creation rather than the failed painter. Antonio ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Oct 5 06:21:23 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 06:21:23 -0500 Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <20051005025320.BYVF2981.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <4342EF23.2010906@jcwren.com> <20051005025320.BYVF2981.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <20051005062123.0c30bf15.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 23:00:29 +0000 jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > > > On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, J.C. Wren wrote: > > > > > Some useful information here: > > > http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtcir > > > > > I work with CRTs all day on some days (unfortunately) and once in a > > while a monitor or TV will fall off the pallet I'm stacking, from > > heights of anywhere from a couple feet to 6-7 feet. In most cases, > > the case gets cracked up pretty bad but the CRT remains intact. If > > anything does break, it's usually the neck or stem, and you can hear > > the hiss of the air rushing into the back of the tube: nothing to > > worry about there. On rare occasions, the TV or monitor falls flat > > on its face, and that usually > > > Basically, I'm generally in awe of the durability of CRTs. I've > > dropped bare CRTs before and they tend to just bounce. I've dropped > > monitors that then continue to work just fine. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > > Computer Festival > > My coworker was taking something from shelf and unfortunely he > snagged a line cord belonging to the 13" tv sitting on top shelf 9 > feet up and yanked it down I was only 10 feet away. That tv hit the > cement floor dead center on it's face with a glassine shrill "BOOM!" > > Opened it up, yoke & neck went through inside the CRT leaving huge > jagged hole where flare used to be and only mark on face is scratch > marks. > > I will not forget that sound. "BOOM!" of air imploding in a instant. > > When I am disposing junk CRTs, > Yes, I have heard the "whish!" if neck accidently shattered or the > long fading sigh of "whoooosh" or a quick whoosh if the little pip > broken or a long, long hiss if someone cracked the pip partially. > > I heard of CRT "explode" but my days was before the time when CRT was > just that, big glass bottles without implosion protection. > > Over the years, I have heard of stories of TVs falling. Some made it > through, most didn't make it either CRT shadow mask wrecked or > circuit board in pieces or CRT cracked. Only one that stuck was a > older philips TV had chassis completely popped out of it's rails and > board is completely intact but CRT mask wasn't. Rails is very > strong and deep yet board escaped. Wow. > Plastic didn't make it very often. BTW, don't drop a Sanyo TV. :) > Their plastic is complete cr*p, simply shattered into pieces > like a lead glass. I even smashed through Sanyo TV cabinet plastic > when hitting it trying to get it to act up with a flat slap. :( > > Cheers, Wizard Safe disposal practice (if you don't think a dumpster diver is coming along afterwards, in which case you're ruining the kit for him) is to evacuate the CRT before pitching it by breaking off the little nipple on the neck and evacuating the tube. You get a whooshing sound as the air pulls in. But back when I was in tech school and practicing troubleshooting by buying and fixing thrift-store TV sets to give away to friends, my experience was that it's HARD to break the CRT on a TV set. I remember bouncing a 9" portable set face down off the blacktop and bouncing a hammer off the face. (it's easy when you're in your early 20's to think you are indestructable and try stuff like that all the time) The glass is REALLY thick on the face of any modern (later than early 60's) TV set. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Oct 5 06:23:39 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 06:23:39 -0500 Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <20051004211030.Y23273@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051004211030.Y23273@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20051005062339.2b39080c.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Fred Cisin wrote: > > "Conclusion: According to my experience, spectacular picture tube > > implosions are something like cars in movies that explode upon > > roll-over, hitting a tree or driving down the cliffs: an urban > > legend." > > If the car is full of CRTs when it goes off a cliff, then will it > explode? Or do you also need saddle tanks and a triggered explosive? > > Probably evacuate the CRT tubes and fill them with propane for best effect. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Oct 5 06:27:17 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 06:27:17 -0500 Subject: Is this an acceptable VCM listing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051005062717.4ce204c3.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 17:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > Hmm, I'll let it slide because I'm too lazy right now to > > > investigate > > > > And VCM makes another step towards being just like eBay > > Oh, that hurt. > We'll let you know when phishers start sending out email notices purportedly coming from you. ("Your VCM account may be cancelled IMMEDIATELY if you don't send your KIM-1 to Sellam...) From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Oct 5 06:32:50 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 06:32:50 -0500 Subject: LF: Bigboard disks/software? In-Reply-To: <20051005083639.PRAZ10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20051005083639.PRAZ10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20051005063250.2566f793.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 04:36:40 -0400 Dave Dunfield wrote: > Looking for the CP/M boot disk and related software for > the original Furguson BigBoard ... Guy I got mine from > last year has been looking, but so far has come up dry on > the disks for it (thinks they must have been tossed). > > Can anyone provide me with images? (which I will of course > make available in the archive as well). > Cool! (somebody send it to him, I need the above too). I have full schematics and docs with mine, in case you didn't get that perhaps I should digitize and upload it. Mine *might* need a BIOS chip. It came from Honeywell in St. Paul, where they had targeted it at some embedded controller operation where they had it running a custom BIOS with their code. I got a BIOS image from someone but thus far STILL haven't powered it up with the replacement BIOS. From asholz at topinform.de Wed Oct 5 06:39:12 2005 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 13:39:12 +0200 Subject: "screen mold" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4343BB60.6060908@topinform.de> Tony, >>Are you the guy who's been asking for scheamtics over on hpmuseum.net? >> >> Right! >Which 9845 monitor do you have? > > The green one (two with "screen mold" and two without). Andreas From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Oct 5 07:21:56 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:21:56 -0400 Subject: LF: Bigboard disks/software? Message-ID: <20051005122154.ZDNA5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> Looking for the CP/M boot disk and related software for >> the original Furguson BigBoard ... Guy I got mine from >> last year has been looking, but so far has come up dry on >> the disks for it (thinks they must have been tossed). >> >> Can anyone provide me with images? (which I will of course >> make available in the archive as well). >Cool! (somebody send it to him, I need the above too). > >I have full schematics and docs with mine, in case you didn't get that >perhaps I should digitize and upload it. > >Mine *might* need a BIOS chip. It came from Honeywell in St. Paul, >where they had targeted it at some embedded controller operation where >they had it running a custom BIOS with their code. I got a BIOS image >from someone but thus far STILL haven't powered it up with the >replacement BIOS. I do have the schematics and docs. Mine has a BIOS chip, although I believe it was slightly modified for a different terminal (still trying to get the details) It was a working CP/M system when it was taken out of service - The guy is looking for the original BIOS ROM which he thinks he still has (but it might be with the disks). I also have a full set of Micro Cornucopia, and some of the articals provide useful information - let me know if you are looking for any details in particular. I know the BB is very similar to the Xerox 820 ... I have a working 820-II with system disks ... does anyone know if these might be compatible? I also know where there is an 820 (original version) close by, but I don't know if he has disks for it... If anyone has the original BB disks, I would very much like to obtain an image of them. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Wed Oct 5 08:19:45 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 08:19:45 -0500 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic In-Reply-To: <008301c5c84d$57f8fe60$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E57C8@sbs.jdfogg.com> <008301c5c84d$57f8fe60$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4343D2F1.2070407@vzavenue.net> Jim Beacon wrote: >Actually, the crucial thing is the effective linear speed at the edge of the >polishing mop, the value of which is dependant on the material being >polished, and the polishing compound in use. > >A secondary consideration is the cooling of the mop. A large mop spends less >time in contact with the work piece, so remains cooler during the polishing, >which is less likely to damage the work. > >A look in the catalogues of the materials firms should show a suitable >polishing compound for thermo plastics, and the will often come in different >grades - cutting for rough work, and finishing for final buffing. A good UK >supplier is Cetelem. > > > > > A good supplier for buffing materials and tools for all materials in the US is The Eastwood Company. . Almost all of our problems in restoring plastic bits occurs in the auto restoration hobby as well so they have a large line of buffing machines, buffs and compounds for all types of plastic materials. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 5 08:24:19 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:24:19 -0400 Subject: CRT implosions References: <4342E8BC.8080402@yahoo.co.uk> <43431CAC.4070608@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <17219.54275.436781.931929@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "curt" == curt <@ Atari Museum" > writes: curt> I'll never seen anything horrendous in so far as implosions. I've seen one that was fairly spectacular. My father had an old TV CRT sitting around, from back in the separate glass shield days Tony mentioned. He carried it (carefully so as not to bump into things) to the car and took it to the dump. We set it out in the back of the dump, face down, stepped back 20 feet, and tossed bricks at it. We hit it where the neck joins the body. "Thud" sound and chunks of glass spread several feet. We were far enough away that it wasn't a hazard to us, and it certainly didn't spray bits as an explosion would. But it was sufficiently impressive that it taught me to handle all large glass vacuumm tubes with caution. Bumping into a stair rail and having it break in your hands would definitely be a Bad Day. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 5 08:44:09 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:44:09 -0400 Subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold") References: <43430F66.8090609@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <17219.55465.612039.927944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> > I am told, BTW, that several radar operates in planes in the >> last war > were killed when the plane had a heavy landing, the >> radar display CRT > imploded, and they were litterally shot in the >> face by bits of the > electron gun. >> >> Not something I'd heard before - but I can certainly believe that; >> such displays tend to be pretty large in diameter and of course >> are flat-faced so must be naturally pretty weak toward the centre >> of the face. Tony> Actually, no. The standard radar CRT over here at that time was Tony> the VCR97. That's a 6" diaameter thing with a fairly convex Tony> screen. (Incidentally, VCR stood for Valve, Cathode Ray, or so Tony> I am told). But larger flat face radar tubes appeared in the 1960s if not earlier. The CDC 6000 series console (DD60) uses a pair of radar tubes, with electrostatic deflection. I'm not sure exactly how big they are, but certainly not less than 12 inches. They were probably at least 2 feet long. Deflection voltage is around 2 kV, supplied by an amplifier chain ending in a 3CX100A5 microwave transmitter tube. The radar tubes used until maybe 5 years ago at US air traffic control centers were at least that big, possibly bigger, and also flat. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 5 08:47:32 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:47:32 -0400 Subject: CRT implosions References: <4342F341.8000400@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <17219.55668.356030.703496@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> Yep. There's 6-8 pounds of lead in a CRT, with the majority Vintage> of it (90%+) being in the face, which is also by far the Vintage> thickest part. This is to protect viewers against the X-ray Vintage> emissions. I imagine it also contributes to the structural Vintage> strength of the tube. I don't know about that. Leaded glass has assorted nice properties (high refractive index and high dispersion are two that explain why it has been used for centuries in fancy glassware, and also in optical devices) but I don't think that higher strenght is one of them. paul From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 08:55:23 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:55:23 -0400 Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <17219.55668.356030.703496@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4342F341.8000400@yahoo.co.uk> <17219.55668.356030.703496@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4343DB4B.6040307@gmail.com> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: > > > Vintage> Yep. There's 6-8 pounds of lead in a CRT, with the majority > Vintage> of it (90%+) being in the face, which is also by far the > Vintage> thickest part. This is to protect viewers against the X-ray > Vintage> emissions. I imagine it also contributes to the structural > Vintage> strength of the tube. > > I don't know about that. Leaded glass has assorted nice properties > (high refractive index and high dispersion are two that explain why it > has been used for centuries in fancy glassware, and also in optical > devices) but I don't think that higher strenght is one of them. Just hold a glass cup of a particular size and construction, and a leaded glass cup of the same size and construction and you will see how much stronger the leaded glass is. It's quite noticeable even to the layman. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 5 09:18:03 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 10:18:03 -0400 Subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold") Message-ID: <0INW00GN651Z6FHT@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold") > From: Paul Koning > Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:44:09 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > >> > I am told, BTW, that several radar operates in planes in the > >> last war > were killed when the plane had a heavy landing, the > >> radar display CRT > imploded, and they were litterally shot in the > >> face by bits of the > electron gun. Tubes typical of that era was the smaller electrostatic types and 5up1/7 were of the era. The aviation tubes used for that airborne radar were surrounded by a mumetal shield to keep mag fields out and the graticule was far thicker than the tube. tere were really two generations of tubes used the first ones were the fragile O'scope types and later there were special heavy glass/metal types. Generally It's rare to see a CRT exposed enough to be a hazard as there is always a case (if for HV only) and some kind of graticule. The actual expections were small O'scopes (O1) and hobby scopes. Tubes larger than about 10" didn't appear much till the mid 50s. Getting face full was unlikely due to the graticule and general consturction. I still have a bunch of 2AP1s (2" round green), 3BP1s (3" round green) for projects. These are old tubes (ca 1953/55 date codes!). I also have a modern D170 (2.2x1.8 rectangular) for some project.. >But larger flat face radar tubes appeared in the 1960s if not >earlier. The CDC 6000 series console (DD60) uses a pair of radar >tubes, with electrostatic deflection. I'm not sure exactly how big >they are, but certainly not less than 12 inches. They were probably >at least 2 feet long. Deflection voltage is around 2 kV, supplied by >an amplifier chain ending in a 3CX100A5 microwave transmitter tube. Actually earlier, the SAGE system used a larger 12 to 16 inch round with a 10-12KV Accelerator. Heck look at the tube used for the PDP-1 Console. >The radar tubes used until maybe 5 years ago at US air traffic control >centers were at least that big, possibly bigger, and also flat. Those were bigger flat face ARTS 1 and II series. If memory serves they were in the 19-21" range. The fragile portion of CRTs is always the neck area. The risk with implosion is the neck/gun assembly will be propelled foward through the screen if the screen shatters. When I was younger I'd scrounge old TVs for the componenents. The CRT being useless to me would get taken out back and put in the junk hole and a big rock heaved in. If it was put in neck first and the face crushed the neck/gun would be propelled 10 to 15 ft on a good shot to a large 19" or bigger CRT and the glass widely scattered in a 10ft or so radius, we avoided that as that meant raking up the remains. The real hazard and I got to see this once is foolish people transporting CRTs without making sure they are properly discharged. One case I did see was a doof carrying a 12" by the neck, minor cuts. The other was a fool carrying a tube from a H1500 terminal. He was careful supporting it but the face with the neck upright. However the HV was still undischarged and found it's way to his chest. CRT was dropped straight down and the neck rebounded off the floor and went straight up into the rooms ceiling tiles. Minor cuts to the lower legs, very lucky. Took a while to sweep that mess up, there was glass everywhere. Allison From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Oct 5 09:42:58 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 10:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold") In-Reply-To: <0INW00GN651Z6FHT@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0INW00GN651Z6FHT@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > Actually earlier, the SAGE system used a larger 12 to 16 inch round > with a 10-12KV Accelerator. Heck look at the tube used for the PDP-1 > Console. The SAGE consoles used a 19" Charactron tube. Someone was selling one on Ebay, earlier this year: http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/Ebay/crt1.JPG http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/Ebay/crt2.JPG http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/Ebay/crt3.JPG http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/Ebay/C19lowres.jpg http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/Ebay/C19lowres2.jpg From the Computer History Museum: http://www.computerhistory.org/VisibleStorage/images/102637043_sm.jpg From Ed Thelen's site: http://ed-thelen.org/sage.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 5 10:30:48 2005 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 08:30:48 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Texas Instruments 980A minicomputer In-Reply-To: <200510051122.j95BM57m078076@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510051122.j95BM57m078076@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4343F1A8.1000005@sbcglobal.net> The TI would definitely be worth saving and restoring. If no one else wants it I would take it for sure. This is my first contact with this group. For the people who know me, the IBM 1130 has been picked up in Austria and should arrive by ship around Nov 10. Bob Message: 21 Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 22:11:09 -0600 From: Tim Riker Subject: Re: Texas Instruments 980A minicomputer?? To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4343525D.5020103 at Rikers.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii steven stengel wrote: >> Hmmm, >> >> Someone has a Texas Instrument 980A Computer, with two >> Diablo Series 30 Hard Drives, circa 1972, to offer. Do >> I want it?? > > Wow. 2 in one day? Sure. I can find you someone that'll want it. I saw one in salvage a while back, but it was gutted so I didn't grab it. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 5 10:35:49 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 11:35:49 -0400 Subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold") References: <0INW00GN651Z6FHT@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <17219.62165.354741.356439@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Mike" == Mike Loewen writes: Mike> On Wed, 5 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: >> Actually earlier, the SAGE system used a larger 12 to 16 inch >> round with a 10-12KV Accelerator. Heck look at the tube used for >> the PDP-1 Console. Mike> The SAGE consoles used a 19" Charactron tube. ... Mike> From the Computer History Museum: Mike> http://www.computerhistory.org/VisibleStorage/images/102637043_sm.jpg Mike> From Ed Thelen's site: Mike> http://ed-thelen.org/sage.html ... or the SAGE programming manual on Al Kossow's site (in pdf/ibm/sage), section 2. Very nice description. paul From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Oct 5 10:38:08 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 11:38:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <4343DB4B.6040307@gmail.com> References: <4342F341.8000400@yahoo.co.uk> <17219.55668.356030.703496@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4343DB4B.6040307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510051539.LAA03026@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Just hold a glass cup of a particular size and construction, and a > leaded glass cup of the same size and construction and you will see > how much stronger the leaded glass is. Hardly. You may be able to see how much heavier it is, or some such, but without testing them to destruction you won't be able to tell which is actually stronger. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From vcf at siconic.com Wed Oct 5 11:54:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 09:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is this an acceptable VCM listing? In-Reply-To: <20051005062717.4ce204c3.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > We'll let you know when phishers start sending out email notices > purportedly coming from you. ("Your VCM account may be cancelled > IMMEDIATELY if you don't send your KIM-1 to Sellam...) No, that actually is me :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 5 13:11:24 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 11:11:24 -0700 Subject: TI 980A Message-ID: > The TI would definitely be worth saving and restoring. There is a fair amount of documentation on them on bitsavers. What is lacking is software. Any TI OS distributions would be a great thing to get archived. They are 16 bit accumulator-style minis (as opposed to the registers-in-memory arch of the 990) --al (who has a 980A and disk ctlr, but no software) From brain at jbrain.com Wed Oct 5 09:29:51 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:29:51 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink RELOADED Update Message-ID: <4343E35F.4070807@jbrain.com> Just a quick note concerning the ongoing re-implementation of Q-Link: We publicly unveiled the project at the Fall SWRAP EXPO in Chicago. The demo went well, with many trying the service for the first time in 11 years or more. Prior to the EXPO, as noted in some places, we moved the server to a commercial hosting facility. Mark Ponter and associates of Legend Tech gave us space and bandwidth on their OC-3 connected co-located servers. Following EXPO, I took a breather, and then started the next push, preparinng the rest of the system for the November 5, 2005 20th Anniversary. Work has now shifted from functionality to beefing up the infrastructure. Code cleanup, refactoring, etc. Last week, I added support for multiple screen names on an account (up to 5), and also added a questionaire to obtain City and State (and Country) information from users, to populate the "IDENTIFY" menu item in Q-Link PEOPLE CONNECTION. I also added a feature to allow changing uer names on the fly without logging out of the service (something Q-Link had originally, but was removed throughout much of the original service's lifetime.) This week, I am cleaning up the PEOPLE CONNECTION (chat) codebase, trying to squash a last remaining bug or two. I am also working on a new feature to be hopefully unveiled this weekend. Most of the base service is functional, with the exception of uploads (just need time to implement), Having the system pick partners for PEOPLE CONNECTION games,(not exactly sure how this worked, what the dialogs said, etc. Anyone who has information, email me please), and the Box Office (never worked in the real Q-Link either, but still... Mainly, the menu items and message bases need to be cleaned up and fleshed out. Along the way, word was received on some of the Q-Link mailing lists, and a number of "classic" Q-Linkers have arrived back on the system (Sir Fitz, DonnaS4, KsLass, SkyLine, and the owner of Bonnie's Bar, BonnieB3, to name a few). The stories they tell of the original service are worthy of a book (Qmoms, QDads, QMarriages, Qfamilies, Qbrothers, Qsisters, the QBashes, etc.). On a further note, as part of the 20th Anniversary festivities, the system/service will be demonstrated by the reverse engineer guru himself, Keith Henrickson, at the Vintage Computer Festival on November 5th and 6th in Mountain View, CA. (http://www.vintage.org/2005/main/) I hope you can either attend the festival or log on during that time. We're lining up prizes and other fun activites for the anniversary. A couple weekly items have started already. Dark Vulcan has started weekly TRIVIA games in the PEOPLE CONNECTION TRIVIA room on Tuesday nights @8Central, and DonnaS4 has a ORPHANS room on Thursday nights for the returning Q-Linkers. We even have a 2 minute video "trailer" that Fixxer made. He is working on fleshing it out and making another. Very impressive. We'll post when they are ready. More help is always appreciated. If you have memories, would like to help in development, or just want to staff a room, please contact us. More information is at: www.quantum-link.org -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 5 12:55:20 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 10:55:20 -0700 Subject: Yellowing plastic? In-Reply-To: <43429C2A.6050900@srv.net> References: <5736e8250510031949x694bfd51yf5d604c079ab8477@mail.gmail.com> <43429C2A.6050900@srv.net> Message-ID: <200510051055200243.3E29AF00@10.0.0.252> Star Master wrote: >Anyone know the best way to handle the restoration of plastic that has >yellowed due to being in someones basement or something? Has that dingy >brownish/yellowish tint to it. >I thought I saw a posting about it earlier, but cannot locate it now... >Thanks A lot of yellowing is simply due to degradation of the pigments contained in most ABS or PC (polycarbonate) cases or the coatings thereon. While you may be able to buff off the discoloration if it's not too bad, your best bet is to simply paint over it. A good job can make an old piece of equipment look like new. Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Oct 5 14:34:56 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:34:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold") In-Reply-To: <0INW00GN651Z6FHT@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: Fact Check... > Tubes typical of that era was the smaller electrostatic types and 5up1/7 > were of the era. Electromagnetic (and combo) tubes were just as common starting in the 1940s. If a tube had a P7 phosphor, it was likely intented for PPI duty, and nearly all PPI scopes of the era were rotating yoke types. > The aviation tubes used for that airborne radar were > surrounded by a mumetal shield to keep mag fields out and the graticule > was far thicker than the tube. Graticle thickness not far thicker than the tube face in many instances. Most actually were probably thinner. They varied from 3/16 inch to just a very thin sheet, maybe just a few thousandths thick. > Tubes larger than about 10" > didn't appear much till the mid 50s. 12 inch tubes were very common before 1950. Just about ever World War 2 Allied air search radar had one (or in the case of late war types, two). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Wed Oct 5 15:17:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple ][ on the PSP Message-ID: Apple ][ emulator on the PlayStation Portable: http://pspupdates.qj.net/2005/09/apple-ii-portable-for-psp.html -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 5 15:34:32 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: References: <200510050119.j951JNcO072072@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20051005132230.Q53510@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, CRC wrote: > In the mid 50s they used to show on TV a tape of a ball on a string > launched into the face of an unprotected CRT. The neck proceeded > through the faceplate and embedded in a 1/2" piece of plywood. > Definitely made one careful when playing with the old sets. Yes, but being TV, had they filled the tube with propane and ignited it? http://www.aim.org/publications/aim_report/1993/03a.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 5 16:01:23 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 17:01:23 -0400 Subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold") Message-ID: <0INW006GUNQ3Z430@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold") > From: William Donzelli > Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 15:34:56 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Fact Check... > >> Tubes typical of that era was the smaller electrostatic types and 5up1/7 >> were of the era. > >Electromagnetic (and combo) tubes were just as common starting in the >1940s. If a tube had a P7 phosphor, it was likely intented for PPI duty, >and nearly all PPI scopes of the era were rotating yoke types. There were a few that used elctrostatic that were not PPI but time domain. There were a variety of radars used some very crude appearing by most standards for display. A few the CRT was simply a scope doing TDR on the radar pulse and it was the operators duty corrolate the antenna position with the displayed reflection. There was at least one airborne system that used two smaller tubes to display azmuth and elevation based of one transmitted source and two seperatly recived returns. By late war there was considerable evolution in radar types. There were also airborne landing aids systems that were crt based as well. I used to see them on Cannal st NY back when 1$ was a good hours pay. Fun stuff really as much of it can be duplicated in miniature using current tech at 10ghz. >> The aviation tubes used for that airborne radar were >> surrounded by a mumetal shield to keep mag fields out and the graticule >> was far thicker than the tube. > >Graticle thickness not far thicker than the tube face in many >instances. Most actually were probably thinner. They varied from 3/16 >inch to just a very thin sheet, maybe just a few thousandths thick. Yes they did. But not all. Airborne systems were prone to mechanical shock and that was a known thing. Having a radar fail was nearly as serious as damaging the trained operator. >> Tubes larger than about 10" >> didn't appear much till the mid 50s. > >12 inch tubes were very common before 1950. Just about ever World War 2 >Allied air search radar had one (or in the case of late war types, two). key words, "appear much" as in not commonplace but did exist. Even the military had inerta. Fixed service. Airborne were space limited as well as power. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 15:18:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 21:18:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: "screen mold" In-Reply-To: <4343BB60.6060908@topinform.de> from "Andreas Holz" at Oct 5, 5 01:39:12 pm Message-ID: > >Which 9845 monitor do you have? > > > > > The green one (two with "screen mold" and two without). There are 2 'green' ones. The normal one (which I can't remember the model mumber for) and the enhanced graphics one (HP98780). I have one of the latter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 15:30:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 21:30:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Oct 4, 5 06:23:23 pm Message-ID: > I've stored monitors outside in the baking sun during summer for extended > periods of time. I've had the CRT heat up so much that it quite literally > burned you if you touched the surface. However, none ever spontaneously > imploded. My guess is that you'd have to have enough heat that the glass > began to melt before it imploded, and even then it wouldn't implode but a > gapwould open and the tube would re-atmospherize. It's uneven heating -- geting one part of the glass hot while the rest remains cold -- that sets up thermal stresses in the stuff. Splashing wanter on a hot filament lamp will often cause it to break, not because it would break if cooled evenly to the water temperature (after all, it cools to room temperature when it's switched off) but because you cool some parts of the glass and not others. > > Still, if I were to do what Jules did, in the very least I'd wear safety > goggles and some leather gloves. At least one service manual I have suggests wearing a leather apron to proctect 'those other important bits' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 5 15:38:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 21:38:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: "screen mold" In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Oct 5, 5 10:39:43 am Message-ID: > > The (plastic) faceplate is *not* an implosion protection, it is a contrast Are we talking about the same thing? I am not talking about the thin plastic anti-glare filter that's a seprate part and fitted between the CRT and bezel in some monitors. I am talking about wat seems to be a second glass layer that is bonded to the CRT (and not just round the edges. > and anti-glare plate. All (TV) picture tubes since around 1968 have an > implosion protection that is integral to the tube and not simply glued on > top of it. It was assembled to the CRT at manufactuer (i.e. not when the CRT was put into the monitor). I am not convinced it couldn't be part of an imposion protdction system. > Second, a CRT won't just implode on its own (that's a fairy tale). The I am certainly not convinced of this.... Every TV, monitor, etc since the war has had some kind of imposion protection. This must have cost something to provide, it would not be done if it wasn't necessary (note that even the cheapest TVs still have it). An implosion might be rare, but it was surely a real risk. > front screen really needs a very big shock before it cracks. The most > fragile part of a CRT is the section from the conus to the neck of the > tube. And if the neck should break the rest won't implode, the parts are > just too solid. There were several companies in the old days who removed > the neck of a used CRT and replaced it with one with a new gun system. Absolutely. And they did so with great care. Even just cracking off the tip of the pinch-off tube was not suitable for this, the inrush of air would damage the phosphor coating on the screen (next time you throw out a defective CRT and crack the pinch-off tube to let the vacuum out, look at the screen afterwards). There were various ways of doing it, but all basically let the air in slowly. -tony From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Oct 5 20:02:17 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:02:17 -0500 Subject: IRIS update/PM2 questions Message-ID: Took a few looks at the IRIS, and it seems to be a Frankensiggy. 31xx graphics. 2000 series processor (PM2/PM2M1/SKYFFP, 68010) with ST-506 drives (safely unplugged now, don't know what's on them) Looks like the DIPS are set wrong (gives an HALT-E on the back panel, looks like memory? does anyone know?). I've been looking at the 68k IRIS FAQ, but most of that deals with 2000Turbo and 3000 models Does anybody know (a) what the 26-pin header on the front of the PM2 is? it's between the bridge to the GFX and the 8-pos DIP. Currently unconnected, should it be? Pictures of a 2400/2500 would help. (b) what are the switch settings? 3 switches on the PM2 (one on the edge, two mounted amongst the chips) (c) PM2M1 switch settings- are they like IM1 (IRIS 3000 memory) From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 5 20:48:29 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:48:29 -0500 Subject: Texas Instruments 980A minicomputer?? References: <20051005010308.60143.qmail@web34115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <023301c5ca18$0d820da0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Steven wrote... > Someone has a Texas Instrument 980A Computer, with two > Diablo Series 30 Hard Drives, circa 1972, to offer. Do > I want it?? Yes, you do. Someone (Al?) was looking for the OS... I have it on several disc packs, one being a distribution pack. I can't remember if what I have is DNOS or DX10....something like that. Jay From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 5 22:12:24 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 22:12:24 Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051005221224.328725ea@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:30 PM 10/5/05 +0100, you wrote: >> I've stored monitors outside in the baking sun during summer for extended >> periods of time. I've had the CRT heat up so much that it quite literally >> burned you if you touched the surface. However, none ever spontaneously >> imploded. My guess is that you'd have to have enough heat that the glass >> began to melt before it imploded, and even then it wouldn't implode but a >> gapwould open and the tube would re-atmospherize. > >It's uneven heating -- geting one part of the glass hot while the rest >remains cold -- that sets up thermal stresses in the stuff. Splashing >wanter on a hot filament lamp will often cause it to break, not because >it would break if cooled evenly to the water temperature (after all, it >cools to room temperature when it's switched off) but because you cool >some parts of the glass and not others. > >> >> Still, if I were to do what Jules did, in the very least I'd wear safety >> goggles and some leather gloves. > >At least one service manual I have suggests wearing a leather apron to >proctect 'those other important bits' :-) LOL! Did it actually say that? :-) I've never seen a manual that got that direct. Joe > >-tony > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 5 22:10:55 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 22:10:55 Subject: "screen mold" In-Reply-To: References: <4343BB60.6060908@topinform.de> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051005221055.433f2bea@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:18 PM 10/5/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >Which 9845 monitor do you have? >> > >> > >> The green one (two with "screen mold" and two without). > >There are 2 'green' ones. The normal one (which I can't remember the >model mumber for) and the enhanced graphics one (HP98780). I have one of >the latter. > Actually I think there's THREE green ones but I could be wrong. I don't think I've ever looked to see which models are one my 9845s. Joe From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Oct 5 21:55:24 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 22:55:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CRT implosions (was: Re: "screen mold") In-Reply-To: <0INW006GUNQ3Z430@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: > There were a few that used elctrostatic that were not PPI but time domain. If you are talking the A-scope (and variants), well, "a few" being "most" when it comes to pre-1950 radars. The A-scope was the tube that was used to get ranging information, using a cursor connected to a mechanical counter (yes, the origins of the mouse, folks). Anyone that pulled range off a PPI tube was given KP duty peeling potatoes. > There were a variety of radars used some very crude appearing by most > standards for display. A few the CRT was simply a scope doing TDR on the > radar pulse and it was the operators duty corrolate the antenna position > with the displayed reflection. A quick glance at the azimuth indicator, a real time selsyn dial, would be all the correlation required. The most correlation would be for the very earliest radars, and that would be yelling at the azimuth operator to give you a reading. > There was at least one airborne system that > used two smaller tubes to display azmuth and elevation based of one > transmitted source and two seperatly recived returns. The two scopes were a B-scope and a C-scope. They show different projections (very handy for intercept, as the operator could construct a 3D image of the airspace in his head). The radars you are talking about use only one scope, and the receiver timeshares the scope. None of the early lobe switching radars used two scopes (unless one was just a repeater). > There were also airborne landing aids systems that were crt based as well. > I used to see them on Cannal st NY back when 1$ was a good hours pay. I see these scopes all the time, as I collect radar gear. > Yes they did. But not all. Airborne systems were prone to mechanical > shock and that was a known thing. Having a radar fail was nearly as > serious as damaging the trained operator. What does this have to do with graticle thickness? > key words, "appear much" as in not commonplace but did exist. Even the > military had inerta. No, they were common, even fairly early into the 1940s. Even the 12 inch P4s for television were available in good numbers. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cannings at earthlink.net Thu Oct 6 00:48:53 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 22:48:53 -0700 Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed References: <200509300227.j8U2RViv006158@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <003d01c5ca39$a33b8260$6401a8c0@hal9000> My recommendation would be to first contact Robert at: rdoerr at bizserve.com He has the largest collection ( I know about ) of Hero Jr. parts, panels , manuals, cartridges, ROMs, etc. It would save you $$$$ in shipping to have it all shipped at once. If this doesn't work out, contact me back and I'll get you the panel and mounting studs you need. We can do this offline so we don't bore these good folks here ... Best regards, Steven C. ( adopted parent of many orphaned Hero robots... ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 6:07 AM Subject: Re: Hero-Jr Parts Needed > Right now I need the back cover panel, a set of the pins that hold the > covers, a remote, copy of a manual, and cartridges. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Canning" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:35 AM > Subject: Re: Hero-Jr Parts Needed > > > > Yes. What do you need ? > > > > regards, Steven C. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Keys" > > To: "cctalk at classiccmp" > > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 8:07 PM > > Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed > > > > > >> Does anyone on the list have some spare Hero-Jr parts? > >> > > > > From pdp11 at saccade.com Wed Oct 5 18:15:08 2005 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 16:15:08 -0700 Subject: Univac panel and mystery TTL chips Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20051005145034.03328668@mail.saccade.com> Hi, I have a control panel from a Univac mainframe that I hope to re-animate someday. Unfortunately I know very little about Univac mainframes. First I'll go for broke: does anybody recognize this unit and have schematics for it? http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/UnivacPanel/UnivacPanel.html No? OK, time for plan B, reverse engineering it. Most of the chips on the panel are straightforward 74xxx TTL, however, a number of them appear to have a seven digit part number instead of a regular 74xxx stamp. Is there a translation guide between this seven digit number and regular 74xxx numbers? Most of the 74xxx parts on the board also have these seven digit numbers. Any tips on how to guess the actual function would be most appreciated. Thanks, John Peterson www.saccade.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 5 20:50:45 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 18:50:45 -0700 Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <20051005132230.Q53510@shell.lmi.net> References: <200510050119.j951JNcO072072@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051005132230.Q53510@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510051850450354.3FDCEE12@10.0.0.252> When I was young and TV's had round-faced CRT's and a sheet of glass in front of the tube face, we used to dispose of them by placing one in a galvanized garbage can and throwing a hammer or some other heavy object from a safe distance.. Did the trick. :) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Oct 6 02:50:55 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 07:50:55 +0000 Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <20051005011409.JKZZ26550.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <4342F341.8000400@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 4, 5 10:25:21 pm <20051005011409.JKZZ26550.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <4344D75F.9090105@gjcp.net> jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > Several tonnes even on little ones 14"-20", even MORE on 36" CRT. > The largest CRT that was is hitachi 40" TV. I've got a Ferguson 34" 4:3 TV. No idea who made the tube but it's a monster. I used to work in a TV shop, and when I moved into a new flat my now-ex-girlfriend (not because of the TV!) asked if I couldn't somehow get a good deal on a TV. So I asked, and my boss said "Yes I'll let you have this trade-in one nice and cheaply, you'll probably want the van for this though" - Ok, why? - "Well you've got to pick it up from the guy's house and deliver this new one". Fortunately her band were round rehearsing so the drummer (not a small chap) and I (not a small chap either) lugged this behemoth of a set into the house. It has a slight EW correction fault, but barring getting a Hiab to lift the bloody thing I'm not exactly keen to haul it through to the bench. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Oct 6 02:53:26 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 07:53:26 +0000 Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <20051005025320.BYVF2981.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <4342EF23.2010906@jcwren.com> <20051005025320.BYVF2981.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <4344D7F6.9010904@gjcp.net> jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > My coworker was taking something from shelf and unfortunely he > snagged a line cord belonging to the 13" tv sitting on top shelf 9 > feet up and yanked it down I was only 10 feet away. That tv hit the > cement floor dead center on it's face with a glassine shrill "BOOM!" > > Opened it up, yoke & neck went through inside the CRT leaving huge > jagged hole where flare used to be and only mark on face is scratch > marks. Don't forget that the scan coils are a big heavy assembly with lots of copper and ferrite, and they're only held in place because they're glued to a glass tube about the diameter of but with thinner walls than a large test tube. Gordon. From Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com Thu Oct 6 03:03:29 2005 From: Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:03:29 +0100 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: Hi, I am hoping to help an ex-games developer access some very old game data and source code stored on 8" floppy disks from a CPM system, data that simply does not exist anywhere else and will otherwise be lost. (It is the kind of stuff destined for MAME :)). I personally can possibly get access to such a system, however we do not want to risk transporting the media any more than necessary, and I am far FAR removed from where the disks are located in San Francisco (I live in the UK). Does anybody near here (or willing to travel there!) have such a system and could help us out? As I said this is a one-of-a-kind opportunity which should unearth games that were previously thought not to exist (though most were not completed AFAIK). There is always the chance that they are already lost (corrupted media), but we just won't know until we try. I would be over the moon if somebody could help us out with this! If you can help, or know somebody else who can help, please contact me! Thanks, Kieron Wilkinson ============================ Pareto Investment Management Limited is a Mellon Financial Company. Pareto Investment Management Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority (Firm Ref. No. 416024), and registered in England and Wales with Number 03169281. Registered Office: Mellon Financial Centre, 160 Queen Victoria Street, London EC4V 4LA, United Kingdom. Pareto is the registered trademark of Pareto Investment Management Limited. This message may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator and then immediately delete this message. From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Thu Oct 6 05:07:01 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:07:01 +0200 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data References: Message-ID: <000a01c5ca5d$b21a1430$2101a8c0@finans> Fra: "Kieron Wilkinson" > I am hoping to help an ex-games developer access some very old game data > and source code stored on 8" floppy disks from a CPM system, data that > simply does not exist anywhere else and will otherwise be lost. Do you have the name of the CP/M system? I have 120+ CP/M formats in my conversion system, so it _could_ be an easy job. I'm located in DK Nico From Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com Thu Oct 6 06:07:43 2005 From: Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:07:43 +0100 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: > Re: Nico de Jong > Do you have the name of the CP/M system? I am afraid I don't. However, I will try and find out, asap. > I have 120+ CP/M formats in my conversion system, so it > _could_ be an easy job. Wow. I did not consider that there was so many! If it is easier to simply take an image of the disks somehow, this is perfectly acceptable, and we can extract the files later. Of course, in this case it might be a good idea to take multiple reads just in case... > I'm located in DK Is that Dakota? Is that a long way? I'm pretty sure the person who has the disks are not going to be willing to send them by post. They are very precious - being the only copies of this stuff in existance. Thanks! Kieron ============================ Pareto Investment Management Limited is a Mellon Financial Company. Pareto Investment Management Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority (Firm Ref. No. 416024), and registered in England and Wales with Number 03169281. Registered Office: Mellon Financial Centre, 160 Queen Victoria Street, London EC4V 4LA, United Kingdom. Pareto is the registered trademark of Pareto Investment Management Limited. This message may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator and then immediately delete this message. From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Thu Oct 6 06:24:07 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:24:07 +0200 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data References: Message-ID: <001801c5ca68$778d5dd0$2101a8c0@finans> Sorry, Denmark.... He could use DHL, they are very reliable. I dont think anyone is going to log a conversion system to the US. It would be cheaper for him to take a plane to Denmark, and have a nice weekend in Copenhagen, while I hopefully do the job. The only "local" one I can think of from the top of my head, is Sellam Ismail ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- Fra: "Kieron Wilkinson" Til: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sendt: 6. oktober 2005 13:07 Emne: RE: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data > > > Re: Nico de Jong > > Do you have the name of the CP/M system? > > I am afraid I don't. However, I will try and find out, asap. > > > I have 120+ CP/M formats in my conversion system, so it > > _could_ be an easy job. > > Wow. I did not consider that there was so many! > > If it is easier to simply take an image of the disks somehow, this is > perfectly acceptable, and we can extract the files later. Of course, in > this case it might be a good idea to take multiple reads just in case... > > > I'm located in DK > > Is that Dakota? Is that a long way? I'm pretty sure the person who has > the disks are not going to be willing to send them by post. They are > very precious - being the only copies of this stuff in existance. > > Thanks! > > Kieron > > ============================ > Pareto Investment Management Limited is a Mellon Financial Company. Pareto Investment Management Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority (Firm Ref. No. 416024), and registered in England and Wales with Number 03169281. Registered Office: Mellon Financial Centre, 160 Queen Victoria Street, London EC4V 4LA, United Kingdom. Pareto is the registered trademark of Pareto Investment Management Limited. This message may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator and then immediately delete this message. > > > From Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com Thu Oct 6 06:57:36 2005 From: Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:57:36 +0100 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Nico de Jong > > Sorry, Denmark.... Ah, oops. And there is me always using the UK acronym... :) > He could use DHL, they are very reliable. > I dont think anyone is going to log a conversion system to I'm afraid I am not very familiar with CPM systems. Could you please tell me why a conversion system is needed? Didn't they use similar FDC chips? I (perhaps naively) assumed it would be some sort of a NEC765-derived one and we could get a simple track-by-track dump... > the US. It would be cheaper for him to take a plane to > Denmark, and have a nice weekend in Copenhagen, while I > hopefully do the job. While this is true, the problem we have is that although we have convinced the ex-developer to let us help them preserve this data, it will be very much harder to get them to go out of their way to get it done. This is the reason I was trying to get somebody local to them to help us do it, even though they do treasure it. It's a difficult situation for sure. I'll try again on the mailing of the media, but it will probably have to be a last resort. > The only "local" one I can think of from the top of my head, > is Sellam Ismail Ah great. Well if he does not reply to this thread, I will send them a mail. Thanks! Kieron ============================ Pareto Investment Management Limited is a Mellon Financial Company. Pareto Investment Management Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority (Firm Ref. No. 416024), and registered in England and Wales with Number 03169281. Registered Office: Mellon Financial Centre, 160 Queen Victoria Street, London EC4V 4LA, United Kingdom. Pareto is the registered trademark of Pareto Investment Management Limited. This message may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator and then immediately delete this message. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 6 07:16:49 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 08:16:49 -0400 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: <0INX00G11U3WHA10@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data > From: "Kieron Wilkinson" > Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 12:57:36 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Nico de Jong >> >> Sorry, Denmark.... > >Ah, oops. And there is me always using the UK acronym... :) > >> He could use DHL, they are very reliable. >> I dont think anyone is going to log a conversion system to > >I'm afraid I am not very familiar with CPM systems. Could you please >tell me why a conversion system is needed? Didn't they use similar FDC >chips? I (perhaps naively) assumed it would be some sort of a >NEC765-derived one and we could get a simple track-by-track dump... No. the 765 was available for sale in late 1980, CP/M systems were 3+ years old by then. Even after that point the 765 was not the common part used for CP/M systems. That a PCism. CP/M systems were largely a common coperating system a that allowed for diverse hardware by way of a BIOS that the user or manufacturer could configure for that hardware. There were many different disk systems, formats and in the games space deliberate attempts to make the disks uncopyable by standard systems. >While this is true, the problem we have is that although we have >convinced the ex-developer to let us help them preserve this data, it >will be very much harder to get them to go out of their way to get it >done. This is the reason I was trying to get somebody local to them to >help us do it, even though they do treasure it. What you need is a CP/M familiar person here (actually close to the developer) in the usa and the data once extracted can be shipped via the internet. Systems that convert formats are common enough for people that actively collect and restore. >> The only "local" one I can think of from the top of my head, >> is Sellam Ismail IF its in San Fancisco hes' loads closer than me (3000 miles!). Allison From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Thu Oct 6 07:19:37 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 14:19:37 +0200 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data References: Message-ID: <001301c5ca70$38761da0$2101a8c0@finans> Fra: "Kieron Wilkinson" > > I'm afraid I am not very familiar with CPM systems. Could you please > tell me why a conversion system is needed? Didn't they use similar FDC > chips? I (perhaps naively) assumed it would be some sort of a > NEC765-derived one and we could get a simple track-by-track dump... > Well, that does not really help very much, as a track-by-track dump does not take the niceties of CP/M into account, such as directory structure and where the various segments are written. As you speak about 8" disks, we also have to take the segment size (often 256 or 512, on some formats 1024) into account. A "photocopy" of a disk is possible using (MS)DOS, if you can find a MicroSolutions Compaticard IV (I have one, and no, I dont want to part with it). This card works very well; I once generated a bootable MS-DOS 3.1 (or 3.20?) 8" floppy. The only (in my opinion) good solution, is software reading the CP/M (or whatever) disk, and decode the filestructure etc., so you can write a nice, continuous file. Nico From dmabry at mich.com Thu Oct 6 07:39:05 2005 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 08:39:05 -0400 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43451AE9.3070707@mich.com> Kieron Wilkinson wrote: >Hi, > >I am hoping to help an ex-games developer access some very old game data >and source code stored on 8" floppy disks from a CPM system, data that >simply does not exist anywhere else and will otherwise be lost. (It is >the kind of stuff destined for MAME :)). I personally can possibly get >access to such a system, however we do not want to risk transporting the >media any more than necessary, and I am far FAR removed from where the >disks are located in San Francisco (I live in the UK). > >Does anybody near here (or willing to travel there!) have such a system >and could help us out? As I said this is a one-of-a-kind opportunity >which should unearth games that were previously thought not to exist >(though most were not completed AFAIK). There is always the chance that >they are already lost (corrupted media), but we just won't know until we >try. > >I would be over the moon if somebody could help us out with this! If you >can help, or know somebody else who can help, please contact me! > >Thanks, > >Kieron Wilkinson > > > There has been lots of discussion lately about 8" formats. Perhaps we might be lucky here. There is a chance that the 8" diskettes in question here were written in the one standard 8" format. Single-sided, single-density. If that is the case then there are lots of cp/m systems that can read those diskettes. Even my Intel development systems can read that format! And I would be happy to transfer the files to today's format, whatever form that might be. However I am not on the left coast and the diskettes would have to travel through the postal system or UPS, etc., to get to me and back. Do you have a way to determine if the diskettes are SS, SD ??? Dave From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 07:40:54 2005 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Madcrow Maxwell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 08:40:54 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 Hard Drives Message-ID: <8dd2d95c0510060540naac959ci9e4674df253e686a@mail.gmail.com> I've been looking for a list of the various hard drive units available for the PDP-11 and their capacites, but have not been able to find one online. Can anybody help me out here? From Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com Thu Oct 6 07:43:43 2005 From: Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:43:43 +0100 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Allison > > >I'm afraid I am not very familiar with CPM systems. Could you please > >tell me why a conversion system is needed? Didn't they use > similar FDC > >chips? I (perhaps naively) assumed it would be some sort of a > >NEC765-derived one and we could get a simple track-by-track dump... > > No. the 765 was available for sale in late 1980, CP/M systems were > 3+ years old by then. Even after that point the 765 was not the > common part used for CP/M systems. That a PCism. Okay, thanks for putting me straight. I think my confusion stems from my experience of the Amstrad CPC computer that IIRC ran a CPM-derived operating system, and used the 765. > CP/M systems were largely a common coperating system a that allowed > for diverse hardware by way of a BIOS that the user or manufacturer > could configure for that hardware. There were many different disk > systems, formats and in the games space deliberate attempts to make > the disks uncopyable by standard systems. What a nightmare! > What you need is a CP/M familiar person here (actually close > to the developer) > in the usa and the data once extracted can be shipped via the > internet. > Systems that convert formats are common enough for people > that actively > collect and restore. Well that is good news at least. > >> The only "local" one I can think of from the top of my head, > >> is Sellam Ismail > > IF its in San Fancisco hes' loads closer than me (3000 miles!). Seems he lives in California at least. Maybe I can convince him to make a trip... ;) Kieron ============================ Pareto Investment Management Limited is a Mellon Financial Company. Pareto Investment Management Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority (Firm Ref. No. 416024), and registered in England and Wales with Number 03169281. Registered Office: Mellon Financial Centre, 160 Queen Victoria Street, London EC4V 4LA, United Kingdom. Pareto is the registered trademark of Pareto Investment Management Limited. This message may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator and then immediately delete this message. From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Oct 6 07:51:22 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 08:51:22 -0400 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: <20051006125120.UGWP5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >I'm afraid I am not very familiar with CPM systems. Could you please >tell me why a conversion system is needed? Didn't they use similar FDC >chips? I (perhaps naively) assumed it would be some sort of a >NEC765-derived one and we could get a simple track-by-track dump... CP/M itself is independant of any particular disk format. It can work with hard-sector systems, soft-sector systems, 8" 5.25", 3.5" drives, ROM disks and RAM disks. The only real requirement is that there be block addressable storage. Most 8" systems use IBM soft-sector format, and a lot of them use the WD series of FDC controllers. Most of these can be read with a 765 type controller, but there are a number that cannot. There really is a lot of variation. >While this is true, the problem we have is that although we have >convinced the ex-developer to let us help them preserve this data, it >will be very much harder to get them to go out of their way to get it >done. This is the reason I was trying to get somebody local to them to >help us do it, even though they do treasure it. Getting data from 8" drives will require some work. Chances are that it can be recovered on a PC with ImageDisk or TeleDisk, however to do so they would have to make an adapter to connect the drive, connect it to the PC floppy controller, power the drive, configure the software etc/, and you run the risk that after all that effort, it may not be a disk format compatible with the PC floppy controller (we could tell this in advance if you can find out the exact type of CP/M system it is). This sounds like it is more work they they are willing to do. If the original CP/M system is still running, then the content of the disks can be pulled off with a serial connection to a PC - but this will require getting the connection established, getting a bit of software running on both the CP/M system and the PC. Failing either of the two above, then you need someone local who can do one of the above, or have them send the disks to someone further away who can do it. >It's a difficult situation for sure. > >I'll try again on the mailing of the media, but it will probably have to >be a last resort. I have the ability image 8" disks directly to a PC, and I also have a multi-format copying station that I have not yet "gotten around" to setting up (but I could do that). I also know someone relatively close to me who does have a multi-format copying station up and running. You could have them send the disks to me (Ontario Canada) which would be a bit closer than going "across the pond". I've been fairly actively involved in preservation of disk images from classic systems in the past couple of years - if it would help, the game developer can contact me directly to discuss ways to recover the data. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com Thu Oct 6 07:59:35 2005 From: Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:59:35 +0100 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Nico de Jong > > Well, that does not really help very much, as a > track-by-track dump does not take the niceties of CP/M into > account, such as directory structure and where the various > segments are written. As you speak about 8" disks, we also > have to take the segment size (often 256 or 512, on some > formats 1024) into account. Eeek. My reasons for suggesting doing a track dump is so we can leave figuring out the filesystem later... Which from my experience of other systems means it is less likely we would get it wrong "on the day". It is bad enough getting this done once, twice would not be too fun either. ;) But of course, CP/M is not exactly part of my previous experiences. > A "photocopy" of a disk is possible using (MS)DOS, if you can > find a MicroSolutions Compaticard IV (I have one, and no, I > dont want to part with it). > This card works very well; I once generated a bootable MS-DOS > 3.1 (or 3.20?) 8" > floppy. Nice. > The only (in my opinion) good solution, is software reading > the CP/M (or > whatever) disk, and decode the filestructure etc., so you can > write a nice, continuous file. Absolutely, my only concern was getting that wrong. But perhaps it is far simpler operation to work out the file system with CP/M than getting a track dump the disk, in which case this method is probably more appropriate. Of course one reason (off topic!) to dump the whole disk (down to the flux-transition level) is to ensure you get absolutely everything on the disk. But of course, this is only really useful for retail software that might have applied copy protection - not really applicable for a developers old development system! :) Thanks! Kieron ============================ Pareto Investment Management Limited is a Mellon Financial Company. Pareto Investment Management Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority (Firm Ref. No. 416024), and registered in England and Wales with Number 03169281. Registered Office: Mellon Financial Centre, 160 Queen Victoria Street, London EC4V 4LA, United Kingdom. Pareto is the registered trademark of Pareto Investment Management Limited. This message may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator and then immediately delete this message. From Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com Thu Oct 6 08:02:59 2005 From: Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 14:02:59 +0100 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Mabry > > There has been lots of discussion lately about 8" formats. > Perhaps we might be lucky here. There is a chance that the > 8" diskettes in question here were written in the one > standard 8" format. Single-sided, single-density. If that > is the case then there are lots of cp/m systems that can read > those diskettes. Even my Intel development systems can read > that format! And I would be happy to transfer the files to > today's format, whatever form that might be. However I am > not on the left coast and the diskettes would have to travel > through the postal system or UPS, etc., to get to me and back. > > Do you have a way to determine if the diskettes are SS, SD ??? I think ultimately, before we get further with this, I need to go back to the developer and try to get some more information on the system involved. If they can remember anyway! I'll do that, and then report back. :) Kieron ============================ Pareto Investment Management Limited is a Mellon Financial Company. Pareto Investment Management Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority (Firm Ref. No. 416024), and registered in England and Wales with Number 03169281. Registered Office: Mellon Financial Centre, 160 Queen Victoria Street, London EC4V 4LA, United Kingdom. Pareto is the registered trademark of Pareto Investment Management Limited. This message may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator and then immediately delete this message. From James at jdfogg.com Thu Oct 6 08:10:03 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:10:03 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 Hard Drives Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5824@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I've been looking for a list of the various hard drive units > available for the PDP-11 and their capacites, but have not > been able to find one online. Can anybody help me out here? Which PDP? They span many models and 3 decades. Some later models could use "modern" (1985 modern) disks with the addition of the right interface board. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 6 08:54:56 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 08:54:56 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <001801c5ca68$778d5dd0$2101a8c0@finans> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051006085456.41f7fe06@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:24 PM 10/6/05 +0200, you wrote: >Sorry, Denmark.... > >He could use DHL, they are very reliable. >I dont think anyone is going to log a conversion system to the US. It would be >cheaper for him to take a plane to Denmark, and have a nice weekend in >Copenhagen, while I hopefully do the job. > >The only "local" one I can think of from the top of my head, is Sellam Ismail Frank McConnel and others are in the same area but i don't know if Frank has anything CPM. Dave Mabry frequently recovers CPM files using his MDS-220 (so could I if I dug mine out :-/ ) but he's in Detroit. Can the computer museum at Moffet Field recover them? They're less than a hour's drive from SF. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 6 08:50:52 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 08:50:52 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051006085052.10cf5294@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:07 PM 10/6/05 +0100, you wrote: > >> I'm located in DK > >Is that Dakota? Not likely. More like Denmark! A LONG ways from San Fransisco! Is that a long way? I'm pretty sure the person who has >the disks are not going to be willing to send them by post. They are >very precious - being the only copies of this stuff in existance. That's rather silly. The disks are worthless where they're at now. Find a reliable shipper, such as FedEx, insure the hell out of the package and ship them. I've shipped handreds of pounds (weight) of one of a kind books and disks to Al Kossow and others with no problems. Strong containers, good packing and insurance are the key factors. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 6 09:06:17 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 09:06:17 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051006090617.10cf1b7a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:57 PM 10/6/05 +0100, you wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Nico de Jong >> >> Sorry, Denmark.... > >Ah, oops. And there is me always using the UK acronym... :) > >> He could use DHL, they are very reliable. >> I dont think anyone is going to log a conversion system to > >I'm afraid I am not very familiar with CPM systems. Could you please >tell me why a conversion system is needed? It all depends on what system they were written on. There are hundreds if not thousands of different CPM formats. Some of them are litterally one of a kind and were only used on one type computer and can not be read on anything else. A good example is the M2FM format that Intel used on their MDS machines. Some also used hard sectored disks and there's no way that a modern disk controller can deal with that. OTOH if you're lucky, they used a computer that used the "standard" CPM format (actually it was an early IBM format). If your disks were written in that format then it should be easy to read them. Even a PC with an 8" drive adapted to it can read that format. If you have no idea what kind of machine wrote the disks then I'd suggest at least looking and see how many sector holes are in the disks. If only one then they're soft-sectored and there's a good chance they can be read. If they have more than one then they're hard sectored and are likely to be a problem since many of the machines that used that are long gone. That will at least give you an idea of what you're dealing with. Joe Didn't they use similar FDC >chips? I (perhaps naively) assumed it would be some sort of a >NEC765-derived one and we could get a simple track-by-track dump... > >> the US. It would be cheaper for him to take a plane to >> Denmark, and have a nice weekend in Copenhagen, while I >> hopefully do the job. > >While this is true, the problem we have is that although we have >convinced the ex-developer to let us help them preserve this data, it >will be very much harder to get them to go out of their way to get it >done. This is the reason I was trying to get somebody local to them to >help us do it, even though they do treasure it. > >It's a difficult situation for sure. > >I'll try again on the mailing of the media, but it will probably have to >be a last resort. > >> The only "local" one I can think of from the top of my head, >> is Sellam Ismail > >Ah great. Well if he does not reply to this thread, I will send them a >mail. Thanks! > >Kieron > >============================ >Pareto Investment Management Limited is a Mellon Financial Company. Pareto Investment Management Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority (Firm Ref. No. 416024), and registered in England and Wales with Number 03169281. Registered Office: Mellon Financial Centre, 160 Queen Victoria Street, London EC4V 4LA, United Kingdom. Pareto is the registered trademark of Pareto Investment Management Limited. This message may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator and then immediately delete this message. > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 6 08:17:24 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 09:17:24 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 Hard Drives Message-ID: <0INX00AKWWWUQYY6@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: PDP-11 Hard Drives > From: Madcrow Maxwell > Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 08:40:54 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I've been looking for a list of the various hard drive units available >for the PDP-11 and their capacites, but have not been able to find one >online. Can anybody help me out here? Reason is your asking too broad a question. PDP-11 was a series of CPUs/systems that used at least 4 busses and an even greater array of storage facilities over the period from 1970 to current(yes current!). So to even start answering the question. What cpu or bus? Or what time period? Fixed or removable? Allison From Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com Thu Oct 6 08:26:06 2005 From: Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 14:26:06 +0100 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Dunfield > > CP/M itself is independant of any particular disk format. It > can work with hard-sector systems, soft-sector systems, 8" > 5.25", 3.5" drives, ROM disks and RAM disks. The only real > requirement is that there be block addressable storage. Nice! At least, it probably was at the time. ;) > Most 8" systems use IBM soft-sector format, and a lot of them > use the WD series of FDC controllers. Most of these can be > read with a 765 type controller, but there are a number that > cannot. There really is a lot of variation. Okay. > Getting data from 8" drives will require some work. Chances > are that it can be recovered on a PC with ImageDisk or > TeleDisk, however to do so they would have to make an adapter > to connect the drive, connect it to the PC floppy controller, > power the drive, configure the software etc/, and you run the > risk that after all that effort, it may not be a disk format > compatible with the PC floppy controller (we could tell this > in advance if you can find out the exact type of CP/M system it is). > This sounds like it is more work they they are willing to do. Ouch. Yes, exactly. > If the original CP/M system is still running, then the > content of the disks can be pulled off with a serial > connection to a PC - but this will require getting the > connection established, getting a bit of software running on > both the CP/M system and the PC. No, only the media is available unfortunately. Hence the problem. > Failing either of the two above, then you need someone local > who can do one of the above, or have them send the disks to > someone further away who can do it. I'll contact Sellam Ismail, he is certainly looking to be my best bet so far. > I have the ability image 8" disks directly to a PC, and I > also have a multi-format copying station that I have not yet > "gotten around" to setting up (but I could do that). I also > know someone relatively close to me who does have a > multi-format copying station up and running. You could have > them send the disks to me (Ontario > Canada) which would be a bit closer than going "across the pond". Lets see what we can do on location, and if that fails, we will have to campaign to get them to send somebody the disks. :) > I've been fairly actively involved in preservation of disk > images from classic systems in the past couple of years - if Ah really? That is very interesting! Check your mail. ;) > it would help, the game developer can contact me directly to > discuss ways to recover the data. Thanks for the offer! I'll keep it in mind if things pan out that way. Kieron ============================ Pareto Investment Management Limited is a Mellon Financial Company. Pareto Investment Management Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority (Firm Ref. No. 416024), and registered in England and Wales with Number 03169281. Registered Office: Mellon Financial Centre, 160 Queen Victoria Street, London EC4V 4LA, United Kingdom. Pareto is the registered trademark of Pareto Investment Management Limited. This message may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator and then immediately delete this message. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 6 08:30:01 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 09:30:01 -0400 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: <0INX00MPTXHVYL55@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data > From: "Kieron Wilkinson" > Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 13:59:35 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >My reasons for suggesting doing a track dump is so we can leave figuring >out the filesystem later... Which from my experience of other systems >means it is less likely we would get it wrong "on the day". It is bad >enough getting this done once, twice would not be too fun either. ;) > >But of course, CP/M is not exactly part of my previous experiences. CP/M file system is fairly easy to understand. It was fairly standardized depite media variations. A dump of any form would be reconstructable if there are no lost sectors. For 8" systems they fell onto two major groups: Hard sector: Altair and a Zilog used those. However _most_ hard sector 8" systems rarely carried CP/M. Soft sector: Most common and there was a standard interchange format for CP/M. That was 8" single sided single density (8"SSSD). Other formats that existed were CP/M on Intel (M2FM) and Odd sector sizes or double density. Likely formats in the 8" realm were fortunatly fairly few (likely one of 5). The two most common after SSSD was SSDD (single side Double density) and DSDD (double sided double density). The latter two SSDD was often seen and had a fairly similar layout compared to SSSD. The DSDD was far less common and there were a few different ideas how data should be laid down. FYI: the M2FM (intel MDS) used conventional 8" drives but the FDC was really The 5.25 worlds was chaotic as drive were developing and people needed to push those minifloppies from the base of only 80k to a more useable 360 or even 780k. Where the base 8"SSSD was 256k from day one. > >> A "photocopy" of a disk is possible using (MS)DOS, if you can >> find a MicroSolutions Compaticard IV (I have one, and no, I >> dont want to part with it). >> This card works very well; I once generated a bootable MS-DOS >> 3.1 (or 3.20?) 8" >> floppy. > >Nice. > >> The only (in my opinion) good solution, is software reading >> the CP/M (or >> whatever) disk, and decode the filestructure etc., so you can >> write a nice, continuous file. > >Absolutely, my only concern was getting that wrong. But perhaps it is >far simpler operation to work out the file system with CP/M than getting >a track dump the disk, in which case this method is probably more >appropriate. > >Of course one reason (off topic!) to dump the whole disk (down to the >flux-transition level) is to ensure you get absolutely everything on the >disk. But of course, this is only really useful for retail software that >might have applied copy protection - not really applicable for a >developers old development system! :) > >Thanks! >Kieron > >============================ >Pareto Investment Management Limited is a Mellon Financial Company. Pareto Investment Management Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority (Firm Ref. No. 416024), and registered in England and Wales with Number 03169281. Registered Office: Mellon Financial Centre, 160 Queen Victoria Street, London EC4V 4LA, United Kingdom. Pareto is the registered trademark of Pareto Investment Management Limited. This message may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator and then immediately delete this message. > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 6 08:35:42 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 09:35:42 -0400 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: <0INX00DPLXRC1P12@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data > From: "Joe R." > Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 09:06:17 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>I'm afraid I am not very familiar with CPM systems. Could you please >>tell me why a conversion system is needed? > > It all depends on what system they were written on. There are hundreds >if not thousands of different CPM formats. Some of them are litterally one >of a kind and were only used on one type computer and can not be read on Hundreds but not thousands. It was not as bad as it seems as many systems could handle thir native formats plus a few. >anything else. A good example is the M2FM format that Intel used on their >MDS machines. That was a really breaker. As that could only read it's own. >Some also used hard sectored disks and there's no way that a >modern disk controller can deal with that. OTOH if you're lucky, they used In the 8" world there were fewer formats and most of the systems that were hard sector (altair and some text management systems) didn't run CP/M. Beside in the 8" world CP/M itself had established that 8" SSSD was the interchange format. For 8" stuff the prognosis is not so bad. However the media is so old that may be more of a problem with oxide shedding. Allison From bqt at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 6 08:37:47 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 15:37:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-11 Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <200510061254.j96CrfKk015860@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510061254.j96CrfKk015860@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 Madcrow Maxwell wrote: > I've been looking for a list of the various hard drive units available > for the PDP-11 and their capacites, but have not been able to find one > online. Can anybody help me out here? Phew, that's a long list. I can't give you all, but I can list some from my head atleast. And these are just older DEC drives. You are aware of the fact that PDP-11s can have SCSI disks, which means you can grab almost any current SCSI disk as well? Okay... Here we go: Type Capacity RS series RS03 512 Kbyte RS04 1 Mbyte RF series RF11 512 Kbyte RK series RK02 1.2 Mbyte RK03 2.5 Mbyte RK05 2.5 Mbyte RK06 14 Mbyte RK07 28 Mbyte RL series RL01 5 Mbyte RL02 10 Mbyte RM series RM02 63 Mbyte RM03 63 Mbyte RM05 256 Mbyte RM80 124 Mbyte RP series RP01 5 Mbyte RP02 20 Mbyte RP03 40 Mbyte RP04 83 Mbyte RP05 83 Mbyte RP06 176 Mbyte RP07 504 Mbyte RA series RA80 124 Mbyte RA81 456 Mbyte RA82 622 Mbyte RA90 1.2 Gbyte RA92 1.5 Gbyte RA60 205 Mbyte RA70 280 Mbyte RA71 684 Mbyte RA72 1 Gbyte RA73 2 Gbyte RC series RC25 25 Mbyte * 2 RD series RD31 20 Mbyte RD32 40 Mbyte RD33 71 Mbyte RD50 5 Mbyte RD51 10 Mbyte RD52 31 Mbyte RD53 71 Mbyte RD54 159 Mbyte RX series RX01 256 Kbyte RX02 512 Kbyte RX33 1.2 Mbyte RX50 400 Kbyte RZ series (SCSI disks) And I know that a few of these numbers don't match some pages turned up by Google, but this is what my memory is telling me... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 08:52:19 2005 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Madcrow Maxwell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:52:19 -0400 Subject: Johnny Billquist's List of PDP-11 drives Message-ID: <8dd2d95c0510060652l72e3590fgedc89486bffd1e93@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for that huge list... That was exactly what I was looking for... As for the "what bus" question, it doesn't really matter to me as I can emulate either depending on what hardware I need to emulate and what software I want to play around with (simh is nice that way) I mainly needed to know what was available as I plan on creating several actual useful simh configurations and RL-series disks are so small as to be rather useless to me... It would be nice if simh would provide this sort of info in the "emulated hardware" list. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 6 08:57:27 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 09:57:27 -0400 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: <0INX00IH4YRL5Q82@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Punched the send by error.... continued. > >Subject: RE: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data > From: Allison > Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 09:30:01 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >>Subject: RE: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data >> From: "Kieron Wilkinson" >> Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 13:59:35 +0100 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> >>My reasons for suggesting doing a track dump is so we can leave figuring >>out the filesystem later... Which from my experience of other systems >>means it is less likely we would get it wrong "on the day". It is bad >>enough getting this done once, twice would not be too fun either. ;) >> >>But of course, CP/M is not exactly part of my previous experiences. > >CP/M file system is fairly easy to understand. It was fairly standardized >depite media variations. A dump of any form would be reconstructable >if there are no lost sectors. > >For 8" systems they fell onto two major groups: > >Hard sector: Altair and a Zilog used those. However _most_ > hard sector 8" systems rarely carried CP/M. > >Soft sector: Most common and there was a standard interchange format > for CP/M. That was 8" single sided single density (8"SSSD). > Other formats that existed were CP/M on Intel (M2FM) and > Odd sector sizes or double density. Likely formats in > the 8" realm were fortunatly fairly few (likely one of 5). > The two most common after SSSD was SSDD (single side > Double density) and DSDD (double sided double density). > The latter two SSDD was often seen and had a fairly similar > layout compared to SSSD. The DSDD was far less common and > there were a few different ideas how data should be laid down. > FYI: the M2FM (intel MDS) used conventional 8" drives but the FDC was really a custom board designed by intel to do double density when there were no chips that did it. The format must and can only be read on intel. >The 5.25 worlds was chaotic as drive were developing and people needed to >push those minifloppies from the base of only 80k to a more useable 360 >or even 780k. Where the base 8"SSSD was 256k from day one. Even then many of the 5.25 based systems were not locked one format and could at least read a few others. Again if it was hard sector then all bets were off (Heath, Northstar, and a few others were hard sector). To read base 8"sssd disks there are a lot of people that have working systems (myself included) that have zero problem doing this. It's also possible to do it using a compaticard or even a hacked PC FDC with the right cable to a working drive. If the media was 8"SSSD then reading them to the file content level is best. IF the media is unknown and and different then it really helps to know what the origin system was as then the format is known. If all is unknown the reading the media at the sector level will likely get it done. That is a slower interative process that being determine sector size, read sectors sequentially saving them on other media, decode disk layout and reconstruct files. Again most 8" media is real old and there were a few brands of media that aged poorly [worse if mishandled] with media shedding being a really big problem. Allison From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Thu Oct 6 09:09:19 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:09:19 +0200 Subject: The indefeatable 8" floppy Was : 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data References: <0INX00IH4YRL5Q82@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <000e01c5ca7f$8b575160$2101a8c0@finans> Fra: "Allison" > > Again most 8" media is real old and there were a few brands of media that > aged poorly [worse if mishandled] with media shedding being a really big > problem. > I'm not quite sure that I agree with you. I remember a case where a customer called me, panic stricken, and said that his Mountain 8" loader (I still have the power supply...) had eaten a disc with financial transactions. When I arrived at the site, I saw that the 8" was now a 4" on one side. It was totally mangled by the loaderpart shoving the disk into the drive. Head broken of, etc. New drive, but that was expected. Now we had to look at the mangled disk. There were some dents and scratches, but we decided to try. I sacrificed another 8" disc, in that I opened the sleve and discarded the floppy. In with the "mangled" floppy. It read perfectly, although with a few retries. The epilogue was that my customer sent a civilized letter to his customer, asking him not to put staples through the disc for the future. Nico From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 6 09:08:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Big-assed Nerd belt buckle Message-ID: For the hickish nerds: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8224062317 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 6 09:29:59 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 10:29:59 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 Hard Drives References: <200510061254.j96CrfKk015860@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <17221.13543.305570.865313@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Nice list, Johnny. RX drives aren't "hard" drives, of course. Then there's one old one missing from the list: the RS64 (RC11 controller), capacity 64 kbytes. It was supported by DOS, and (as a swapping disk only) by older versions of RSTS. It was *not* supported by RT11 -- I was told "because there weren't any left when we were developing RT11" -- in other words, they were basically obsolete in 1974... (I did create an RT driver for it, which was tricky because of the 64 byte sector size.) paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 6 09:34:30 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 10:34:30 -0400 Subject: Johnny Billquist's List of PDP-11 drives References: <8dd2d95c0510060652l72e3590fgedc89486bffd1e93@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17221.13814.304476.790747@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Madcrow" == Madcrow Maxwell writes: Madcrow> Thanks for that huge list... That was exactly what I was Madcrow> looking for... As for the "what bus" question, it doesn't Madcrow> really matter to me as I can emulate either depending on Madcrow> what hardware I need to emulate and what software I want to Madcrow> play around with (simh is nice that way) MSCP disks are a nice way to do disk emulation, because the OS shouldn't really care what size you pick (up to whatever max drive size it can handle). At least that's true with E11; I don't know about SIMH. In MSCP, the OS asks the drive for its capacity. So it isn't necessary to emulate a specific "real" disk. I usually just pick a size that's "big enough", let E11 call it an RA81, and RSTS just believes the size it sees. Conversely, for non-MSCP drives, you have to match the size since the OS driver has the drive capacity wired into it. paul From technobug at comcast.net Thu Oct 6 09:46:13 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:46:13 -0700 Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <200510061253.j96CrfKY015860@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510061253.j96CrfKY015860@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On or about Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:34:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, CRC wrote: > >> In the mid 50s they used to show on TV a tape of a ball on a string >> launched into the face of an unprotected CRT. The neck proceeded >> through the faceplate and embedded in a 1/2" piece of plywood. >> Definitely made one careful when playing with the old sets. >> > > Yes, but being TV, had they filled the tube with propane and > ignited it? The tape was made from high speed photography played back at normal speed. I remember the faceplate imploding followed by the neck being propelled through the faceplate. If propane had been used, the faceplate would have exploded and the neck gone in the opposite direction. CRC From James at jdfogg.com Thu Oct 6 10:02:42 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 11:02:42 -0400 Subject: Big-assed Nerd belt buckle Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5828@sbs.jdfogg.com> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8224062317 > Perfect for the Redneck nerd. Would that be a Rednerd? Nerdneck? From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 6 10:18:37 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 08:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Big-assed Nerd belt buckle In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5828@sbs.jdfogg.com> from James Fogg at "Oct 6, 5 11:02:42 am" Message-ID: <200510061518.IAA04168@floodgap.com> > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8224062317 > Perfect for the Redneck nerd. Would that be a Rednerd? Nerdneck? Ah shewt hackers, 'specially them little beady-eye types. Never up t'no good. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I may have invented CtrlAltDel, but Microsoft made it popular. -- D. Bradley From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Oct 6 10:49:48 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 17:49:48 +0200 Subject: Big-assed Nerd belt buckle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <434563BC.30031.F8A3D831@localhost> Am 6 Oct 2005 7:08 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > For the hickish nerds: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8224062317 It's great to be a nerd! http://t.stlyrics.com/t/thearrogantworms305/greattobeanerd13311.html Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 6 10:52:31 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 08:52:31 -0700 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051006090617.10cf1b7a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051006090617.10cf1b7a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200510060852310827.42DF96B7@10.0.0.252> If your customer will ship the media up the coast to Eugene, OR, we'll do the conversion, no matter what the format is, even if it isn't CP/M. Our fee depends on the number of diskettes. We've had a little experience at this. :) Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 6 11:04:07 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:04:07 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0510060540naac959ci9e4674df253e686a@mail.gmail.com> References: <8dd2d95c0510060540naac959ci9e4674df253e686a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >I've been looking for a list of the various hard drive units available >for the PDP-11 and their capacites, but have not been able to find one >online. Can anybody help me out here? The best list I've found is the one from Phil Budne. It includes drives that you obviously wouldn't find attached to a PDP-11. Zane DEC disk history Started 1/94 -pb Phil Budne $Id: dec.disks,v 1.23 2003/02/27 05:08:57 phil Exp phil $ The focus is on disks sold for use on DEC systems (whether manufactured by DEC or not) not general market peripherals (ie; the DSP SCSI line) manufactured by DEC. Capacity is approx, (1K=1024 1M=1024K) some formatted, some unformatted Geometry is (usually) physical (counts alternate sec & cyl) ~ on cylinder counts means average (zone bit recorded disk) Transfer rates are (usually) avg sustainted rates to/from media. 1K=1000, 1M=1000K, b=bits, B=8-bit bytes. All hard disks 3600 rpm unless noted Wanted: corrections & additions!! seek times (avg/min/max) rotational latency transfer rate origal mfgr & designation for non-dec disks interface type (ie; Massbus, MSCP) or controller type year of introduction (dec or orig mfgr) encoding?? bpi?? Old interfaces (removable unless noted) ======================================= disk cap. sec/trk trk/cyl cyl notes (surf) ================ VAX730 IDC R80 121M 31 14 559 dec built; winchester; SMD interface (RM80 with SMD/Massbus converter) ================ via PDP-11 RK-11, PDP-8 RK8 RK02 1.2M 12 2 203 Diablo model 30 low density (256B sect) avg seek: 70ms (15ms min) 1500 rpm; avg rot delay: 20ms xfer: 22.2us/word 1100 BPI max RK03 2.5M 12 2 203 Diablo model 30 high density (512B sect) avg seek: 70ms (15ms min) 1500 rpm; avg rot delay: 20ms xfer: 11.1us/word 2200 BPI max RK05(J) 2.5M 12 2 203 1500rpm; RK03 cartridge; RK8 max xfer 1.44Mb/s (8.32us/wd 1.1??) seek: 50ms/10ms/85ms RK05F 5M 12 2 203 1500rpm; fixed rk05; 2xRK05 to s/w ================ RK06 13M 22 3 411 2400rpm; dec built RK07 27M 22 3 823 2400rpm; dec built; xfer 538KB/s; lat=12.5ms seek: 36.5ms avg, 8.5ms min avg access 49ms ================ RL01 5.2M 40 2 256 2400rpm; 256B/sect; dec built; pack xfer 512KB/s; lat=12.5ms seek (ms) 55avg/15min/100max 3725 BPI; 125 TPI RL02 10M 40 2 512 2400rpm; 512B/sect; dec built; pack xfer 512KB/s; lat=12.5ms seek (ms) 55avg/15min/100max 3725 BPI; 250 TPI ================ via PDP-10 RA10 RB10 20-100M 11 varied "Giant Bryant" disk (aka "MD10" Moby Disk???) 1200rpm? av seek 110ms? ================ via PDP-10 RC10; RD10 2.5M 20 2 100 Burroughs disk 1800(1735)rpm; 32*36b/sect fixed head; lat=17.6ms; xfer=2.7Mb/s (76000W/S; 13us/W) total of 512,000 36-bit words (4000 128-word blocks) 200 tracks of 80 32W "segments" RM10B 2.07M 30 1 90 Bryant drum; 64*36b/sect; xfer 7.9Mb/s @60Hz: 3450rpm, lat8.8ms @50Hz: 2870rpm, lat10.6ms total of 345,600 36-bit words (2700 128-word blocks) Drum surface was conical, and mounted vertically. ================ fixed head RF/RS11 512K -- 1 128 1800rpm; fixed head RS08 256KW -- 1 128 PDP-8 fixed head disk (RF08 ctrlr) 128 fixed heads (1/track) 3(+3 spare) timing tracks word addressable 2048 words/track; 1100 BPI max @60Hz: xfer 16us/wd access 16.9ms/250us/33.6ms @50Hz: xfer 19.2us/wd access 20.3ms/320us/40.3ms max density 1100BPI, NRZI recording DF32 32KW -- 1 16 PDP-8 fixed head disk (13 bit words) word addressable; 2KW tracks @60Hz: xfer 32us/wd, avg access 16.67ms @50Hz: xfer 39us/wd, avg access 20ms max density 1100BPI, NRZI recording 10" rack 10.5" high Upto 3 DS32 slaves can be chained. ================ via PDP-10 RP10; PDP-11 RP-11; PDP-8 RP08 RP01 5M 5 10 203 2400rpm; Memorex ("Mark I"?) pack [never released] seek (ms) 50avg/20min/80max; lat13.7ms xfer=837Kb/s RP02 20M 10 20 203 2400rpm; Memorex 660 (Mark IV); pack seek (ms) 50avg/20min/80max; lat13.1ms xfer=1.8Mb/s. $25k c. 1969 RP03 40M 10 20 400 2400rpm; Memorex (Mark VI); pack Massbus ======= disk cap. sec/trk trk/cyl cyl notes RP04 83M 22 19 411 pack; ISS-Sperry Univac (8430?) 3500rpm? av seek 27ms? RP05 83M 22 19 411 pack; Memorex; drive looks like RP06 field upgradable to RP06 RP06 176M 22 19 815 pack; ISS/Memorex 677 "Mark XVI" ("Merlin"?) (clone of IBM 3330-II?) avg access 38.3ms; avg lat 8.3ms seek 30ms (avg), 10ms (min) xfer=825KB/s 3600rpm RP07 504M 50(30?) 32 630 ISS/Sperry Univac; winchester seek 23ms (avg) 3633 rpm? xfer=2.3MB/s (36-bit)/ 1.3MB/s (32-bit) RP20 929M 24(25?) 30 1119(750?) two fixed spindles (on DX20?) seek 25ms (avg); xfer=1.3MB/s 3500 rpm? (840000 128*36b blocks) Memorex 3652?? dual Memorex 3650 (IBM 3350 clone) RS03 512K 64 1 64 fixed head; 128B/sector RS04/5 1M 64(32?) 1 64 fixed head; 256B/sector 6ms access; spiral read 32 blks/trk 2048 blks/cyl? 3600rpm RM02 67M 32 5 823 pack; CDC 9762; 2400 rpm xfer=6.4Mb/s (806KB/s); avg acc 42.5ms seek 30ms (avg), 6ms (min) avg latency 12.5ms RM03 67M 32 5 823 pack; CDC 9762; 3600 rpm xfer=9.6Mb/s (1.2MB/s); avg acc 38.3ms seek 30ms (avg), 6ms (min) avg latency 8.3ms RM05 256M 32 19 823 pack; CDC 9766 RM06 ? RM80 124M 32 14 559 winchester (RA80 HDA) xfer=9.6Mb/s (1.2MB/s) avg access 33.3ms; avg lat 8.3 seek 25ms (avg), 6ms (min) 3600RPM ML11A varies - - - solid-state (ram) disk; 2MB/s xfer 1-31 arrays of 512 or 2048 blocks ea MSCP/SDI ======== disk cap. sec/trk trk/cyl cyl notes RA60 205M 42 4 2382 pack; seek 42 ms (avg); xfer=2.1MB/s (1.98?) 3500 rpm?? 5 platters? === 5.25" FH? RA70 280M 33 11 1507 RA71 684M 51 14 1915 RA72 1G 51 20 1915 RA73 2G 70 21 2667 === 19" RA80 124M 31 14 546 dec; winchester; 3500 rpm? RA81 446M 51 14 1248 dec; winchester; 3500 rpm? seek 28 ms (avg); xfer=2.3MB/s RA82 608M 57 15 1423 dec; winchester RA90 1.2G 69 13 2649 RA92 1.5G 69 13 3279 RC25 26M*2 42 4 302 "LESI" (Low End Storage Interconnect) 1 fixed, 1 removable; CDC9457? ("Lark") Peak xfer 1.25 MB/s; Seek 10/35/55ms avg rotational latency: 10.5ms avg access: 45.5 ms MSCP/DSSI ========= RF30 143M 37 6 1320 5.25" HH RF31 380M 50 8 1861 5.25" HH RF35 852M 5.25" HH? RF36 1.6G 5.25" HH? RF71 390M 37 16 1320 5.25" FH RF72 1G 50 21 1861 5.25" FH RF73 2G 5.25" FH? RF74 3.5G 5.25" FH? === ?? ESE20 120M 4 128 483 Solid state disk Floppy ================================================================ disk cap. sec/trk trk/cyl cyl notes RX01 256K 26 1 77 8" SSSD (IBM soft-sectored) 128B/sect; 360rpm xfer 250Kb/s; lat 83ms seek (ms) 405avg/30min/790max RX02 512K 26 1 77 8" SSDD (on-standard) 256B/sect; 360rpm xfer 488Kb/s (61KB/s); lat 83ms seek (ms) 154avg/6min avg access 262ms RX03 1M 26 2 77 8" DSDD (non-standard) -- not released RX22 RX23 3.5" SCSI high 1.4M 18 2 80 double 720K 9 2 80 single 360K 9 2 40 RX26 3.5" SCSI extra 2.8M 36 2 80 high 1.4M 18 2 80 double 720K 9 2 80 single 360K 9 2 40 RX33 5.25" Teac FD55-GFR-17U MFM? extra 1.2M 15 2 80 high 720K 9 2 80 DSDD double 400K 10 1 80 SSDD (RX50 compat?) single 360K 9 2 40 DSSD RX50 400K 10 1 80 5.25" single sided, dual drive FM encoding MFM "ST506/412 interface" (on RQDX{1,2,3}) ========================================== disk cap. sec/trk trk/cyl cyl notes === 5.25" FH RD50 5M 17 4 153 Seagate ST506 seek 85/3?/?? RD51 10M 17 4 306 Seagate ST412 seek 85/16.6?/?? RD52 31M 18 7 480 Quantum 540 / ATASI 3046 (also Evotek?) RD53 71M 18 8 1024? Microp 1325 (or 1335) w/ jumper at J7 RD54 156M 17 15 1225 Maxtor XT-2190D === 5.25" HH RD31 20M 17 4 615 ST225 seek (ms) 65/20/150 RD32 40M 17 6 820 ST251(-1*) seek 40(28*)/8/70 ST277R(-1*) [MFM format] 40(28*)/8/70 RD33 71M Microscience HH-1090 [Never released] SMD disks popular on VAXen (Winchesters unless noted) ===================================================== disk cap. sec/trk trk/cyl cyl notes A9300 248M 32 19 815 Ampex 9300; removable A330 262M 32 16 1024 Ampex Capricorn 330 CDC9720 275M 48 10 1147 CDC9730 268M 32 10 823 removable CDC9762 65M 32 5 823 removable; (also RM03) [phys 80M?] CDC9766 256M 32 19 823 removable; (also RM05) CDC9775 839M 32 40 843 M160 132M 32 10 823 Fujitsu 160 M2351 337M 46 20 842 Fujitsu Eagle 19" M2351A 337M 48 20 842 Fujitsu Eagle 19" M2351AF 337M 48 20 842 Fujitsu Eagle 19" w/ 3 fixed heads M2361 549M 64 20 842 Fujitsu Super Eagle 19" M2361A 549M 68 20 842 Fujitsu Super Eagle 19" NEC800 800M 66 23 850 NEC2363 1G 64 27 1024 SCSI disks (Winchesters unless noted) ===================================== disk cap. sec/trk trk/cyl cyl notes === 5.25" FH RZ55 325M Micropolis 1578-15 or maxtor xt-4380sb2? RZ55L RZ56 650M 54 15 1632 Micropolis 1588-15 RZ56L RZ57 1.01G 71 15 1925 Micropolis 1598-15 RZ57I RZ57L RZ58 1.3G 85~ 15 2117 5400rpm? Micropolis 1908? RZ59 8.9G 193 18 5111 === 5.25" FH? RZ72 RZ73 2.0G 71 21 2621 RZ74 3.57G 67~ 25 4165 === 3.5" HH? RZ22 51M 33 4 776 Conner CP350 RZ23 102M 33 8 776 Conner CP3100-1 RZ23L 118M 39~ 4 1524 RZ24 205M 38 8 1348 Conner CP3200; 3500rpm? RZ24L 240M 66~ 8 1818 Quantum LPS-240S? RZ25 416M 62 9 1492 RZ25L 523M 79~ 8 1891 RZ26 1.05G 57 14 2570 5400rpm? RZ27 1.6G 143~ 16 1366 RZ28 2.1G 99~ 16 2595 DEC manufactured RZ28B 2.1G 82~ 19 2626 Seagate ST12400N; 5411 rpm; seek 10/2/22 RZ29 4.2G 113~ 20 3720 Quantum? ================ 5" HH? RZ31 RZ33 ?? RZ35 832M 57 14 2086 ================ 5" FH?? RZ55 332M RZ56 635M RZ57 1G RZ58 1.3G ================ 5" FH RZ73 2G RZ74 3.57G ================ CD-ROM (SCSI) RRD40 LMS CM 210 (no audio) RRD42 Sony CDU-541 RRD43 RRD44 RRD45 RRD46 12x RRD47 32x RRD50 Philips/LMSI CM100 (no audio) ================ Optical WORM RWZ01 288M 31 1 18751 Erasable Optical 5.25" (Sony) EDM-1DA0/1DA1/650/600 RWZ21 WORM 3.5" (MO) RV20 6GB? Optical WORM 12" RSV20 Optical WORM RV60 12" RV64 Jukebox (RV20 based) RWZ52 1.2G 5.25"; rewritable; 600MB/side HC: acc 36ms; r 1.6MB/s; w 0.53MB/s LC: acc 38ms; r 1.0MB/s; w 0.33MB/s RVZ72 6.55G tabletop 12" write once; SCSI access 600ms; read 900KB/s; w 400 KB/s RV720 78GB deskside jukebox w/ 1 drive, 12 disks RV730ZB 438GB datacenter jukebox w/ 2 drives; 67 d. RV730ZD 308GB datacenter jukebox w/ 4 drives; 47 d. Decimage Express v2? LMS 5.25"/12" WORM Solid-state disks (SCSI?) ========================= "disk" cap. sec/trk trk/cyl cyl notes EZ51 104M 33 9 776 EZ54 418M 62 10 1492 EZ58 835M 20 10 8353 -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 6 11:04:59 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:04:59 -0700 Subject: Big-assed Nerd belt buckle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:08 AM -0700 10/6/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >For the hickish nerds: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8224062317 The fact that you even found that seriously frightens me! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Thu Oct 6 11:07:04 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:07:04 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a 3U (single slot) VME chassis hanging around? Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557830E17@cpexchange.olf.com> I need a chassis that can take 3U (not 6U) VME-style cards. The cards are not VME, so I don't care if it does not have the backplane as I have my own. It needs to have a powersupply though.... Thanks, Ram From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 6 11:32:56 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 09:32:56 -0700 Subject: Univac panel and mystery TTL chips In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20051005145034.03328668@mail.saccade.com> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20051005145034.03328668@mail.saccade.com> Message-ID: <200510060932560256.430499BF@10.0.0.252> Don't rely on CMB to have the datasheets for those mystery chips, even if they seem to say that they do. Often what you'll get is a datasheet that says "No data available". You know, there's another (piece) of a Univac panel on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8702180075 I speculate that someone's replaced the indicator lamp covers to read 1-2-4, instead of the more logical 4-2-1 order. Cheers, Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 6 11:39:16 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: <200510061639.JAA09515@clulw009.amd.com> Hi First thing is to try to determine format. Many 8 inch disk were labeled as being SSSD, DSDD, or similar. This will help as a starting point. Also, looking to see if it has a single index hole or multiple in the media needs to be determined. If it is soft sectored SSSD, 128 bytes per sector and FM format, I can read them relatively easily. I live in Santa Cruz, Ca. That is about 50 miles south of SF. If the disk have text files, figuring the file formating will not be a big issue. As you note, getting the sector images is the important part. Sorting the sectors is relatively minor. Dwight From andy.piercy at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 12:05:14 2005 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 18:05:14 +0100 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kieron, I have an operational Z80 CP/M system that has 8" floppy drives which can read both DSDD, DDSD, SSDD, SSSD disks, and I can push the data out the serial port to a PC. Only problemo is I'm also located in the UK Fleet in Hampshire, but any good to you? Ta, Andy. On 06/10/05, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: > > Hi, > > I am hoping to help an ex-games developer access some very old game data > and source code stored on 8" floppy disks from a CPM system, data that > simply does not exist anywhere else and will otherwise be lost. (It is > the kind of stuff destined for MAME :)). I personally can possibly get > access to such a system, however we do not want to risk transporting the > media any more than necessary, and I am far FAR removed from where the > disks are located in San Francisco (I live in the UK). > > Does anybody near here (or willing to travel there!) have such a system > and could help us out? As I said this is a one-of-a-kind opportunity > which should unearth games that were previously thought not to exist > (though most were not completed AFAIK). There is always the chance that > they are already lost (corrupted media), but we just won't know until we > try. > > I would be over the moon if somebody could help us out with this! If you > can help, or know somebody else who can help, please contact me! > > Thanks, > > Kieron Wilkinson > > ============================ > Pareto Investment Management Limited is a Mellon Financial Company. Pareto Investment Management Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority (Firm Ref. No. 416024), and registered in England and Wales with Number 03169281. Registered Office: Mellon Financial Centre, 160 Queen Victoria Street, London EC4V 4LA, United Kingdom. Pareto is the registered trademark of Pareto Investment Management Limited. This message may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator and then immediately delete this message. > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 6 12:58:21 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 13:58:21 -0400 Subject: The indefeatable 8" floppy Was : 8" floppy system needed to recoverold game data Message-ID: <0INY004G89X1PJ20@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Hi, I have around here maybe 400-1000 8" disks. Most are not less than 15 years old and some easily approaching 25-30. I've seen a perfectly good head and pad get gummed when the binder failed on the media. The other case was media that was stored next to a large (50hp) AC motor. The media was good but usedless until formatted. The previously held data was largely gone due to partial erasure. >[worse if mishandled] By that I meant stored in enviromental conditions that may result in binder failure. You may have interpreted that as mechanical bend, fold and spindle. Binder failure is treatable if anticipated but be prepared for read once. I've had a number of my oldest 8" media die that way. Backups and copies prevented loss. Allison > >Subject: The indefeatable 8" floppy Was : 8" floppy system needed to recoverold game data > From: "Nico de Jong" > Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 16:09:19 +0200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Fra: "Allison" >> >> Again most 8" media is real old and there were a few brands of media that >> aged poorly [worse if mishandled] with media shedding being a really big >> problem. >> >I'm not quite sure that I agree with you. I remember a case where a customer >called me, panic stricken, and said that his Mountain 8" loader (I still have >the power supply...) had eaten a disc with financial transactions. >When I arrived at the site, I saw that the 8" was now a 4" on one side. It was >totally mangled by the loaderpart shoving the disk into the drive. Head broken >of, etc. >New drive, but that was expected. Now we had to look at the mangled disk. There >were some dents and scratches, but we decided to try. >I sacrificed another 8" disc, in that I opened the sleve and discarded the >floppy. In with the "mangled" floppy. It read perfectly, although with a few >retries. >The epilogue was that my customer sent a civilized letter to his customer, >asking him not to put staples through the disc for the future. > >Nico > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 6 13:04:08 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 14:04:08 -0400 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: <0INY00LNGA6O34BU@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data > From: Andy Piercy > Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:05:14 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Kieron, > >I have an operational Z80 CP/M system that has 8" floppy drives which >can read both DSDD, DDSD, SSDD, SSSD disks, and I can push the data >out the serial port to a PC. > >Only problemo is I'm also located in the UK Fleet in Hampshire, but >any good to you? > >Ta, > >Andy. I have a operational z80 8" system here and it's 3000 miles closer to something thats' still 3000miles away. :) Hardly helps though. Ideally someone on the US west coast can handle it and ship the data via internet. Allison > >On 06/10/05, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I am hoping to help an ex-games developer access some very old game data >> and source code stored on 8" floppy disks from a CPM system, data that >> simply does not exist anywhere else and will otherwise be lost. (It is >> the kind of stuff destined for MAME :)). I personally can possibly get >> access to such a system, however we do not want to risk transporting the >> media any more than necessary, and I am far FAR removed from where the >> disks are located in San Francisco (I live in the UK). >> >> Does anybody near here (or willing to travel there!) have such a system >> and could help us out? As I said this is a one-of-a-kind opportunity >> which should unearth games that were previously thought not to exist >> (though most were not completed AFAIK). There is always the chance that >> they are already lost (corrupted media), but we just won't know until we >> try. >> >> I would be over the moon if somebody could help us out with this! If you >> can help, or know somebody else who can help, please contact me! >> >> Thanks, >> >> Kieron Wilkinson >> >> ============================ >> Pareto Investment Management Limited is a Mellon Financial Company. Pareto Investment Management Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority (Firm Ref. No. 416024), and registered in England and Wales with Number 03169281. Registered Office: Mellon Financial Centre, 160 Queen Victoria Street, London EC4V 4LA, United Kingdom. Pareto is the registered trademark of Pareto Investment Management Limited. This message may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator and then immediately delete this message. >> >> >> From allain at panix.com Thu Oct 6 13:14:13 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 14:14:13 -0400 Subject: The indefeatable 8" floppy Was : 8" floppy system needed torecoverold game data References: <0INY004G89X1PJ20@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <036801c5caa1$cdaf72a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > The other case was media that was stored next to a large (50hp) > AC motor. The media was good but usedless until formatted. > The previously held data was largely gone due to partial erasure. How close and for how long? I mean, everything we deal with emits EM radiation. It would be interesting to know the details. John A. From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Oct 6 13:26:02 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 14:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Univac panel and mystery TTL chips In-Reply-To: <200510060932560256.430499BF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > You know, there's another (piece) of a Univac panel on eBay: I suspect that is actually a manufacturing jig of some sort, as the card machines on 9000 series machines do not have panels (they are integrated on the main CPU panel). STill it is real Univac - the lights are distictive. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 6 13:36:21 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 14:36:21 -0400 Subject: The indefeatable 8" floppy Was : 8" floppy system neededtorecoverold game data Message-ID: <0INY00J2NBODHQI1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: The indefeatable 8" floppy Was : 8" floppy system neededtorecoverold game data > From: "John Allain" > Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 14:14:13 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> The other case was media that was stored next to a large (50hp) >> AC motor. The media was good but usedless until formatted. >> The previously held data was largely gone due to partial erasure. > >How close and for how long? >I mean, everything we deal with emits EM radiation. >It would be interesting to know the details. Close in this case was on top of and laying against and the motor itself was an much older partially open frame type used for a large screw compressor. The field was strong enough to make a screwdriver buzz if held against it. I suspect the heat given off (maybe 45-55C) didn't help either. The disks in question were stored above it untill a shelf collapse resulting in their close association in such a haphazard way. Though the heat in the room (110F) is not good for the media either. Very unusual case most likely. I didn't include those disks that went through the motor fan or got caught in the drive. My biggest problem has been media stored in basements and garages where temerature and moisture did their worst. Mold and mildew are also a problem but can be managed. Allison From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 6 14:25:01 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 14:25:01 Subject: PDP-11 Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <0INX00AKWWWUQYY6@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051006142501.3d879256@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:17 AM 10/6/05 -0400, Allison wrote: >> >>Subject: PDP-11 Hard Drives >> From: Madcrow Maxwell >> Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 08:40:54 -0400 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >>I've been looking for a list of the various hard drive units available >>for the PDP-11 and their capacites, but have not been able to find one >>online. Can anybody help me out here? > >Reason is your asking too broad a question. > >PDP-11 was a series of CPUs/systems that used at least 4 busses and >an even greater array of storage facilities over the period from 1970 >to current(yes current!). So to even start answering the question. > >What cpu or bus? Or what time period? Fixed or removable? And factory and/or 3rd party drives. If you want to include 3rd party it would take a book to list them all! Joe From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 6 13:35:24 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 11:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need ASR-32/33 in Brooklyn, NY area ASAP Message-ID: I shipped an ASR-32 into NY for a movie shoot and all was going relatively well until I tried to run a punched tape through. Now wrong characters are being printed (i.e. C comes out as K, return and linefeed don't work but instead print characters). Something's stuck/slipped but I have niether the skill nor time to try to diagnose and repair (though I'm trying). If someone in the NY city area has an ASR-32/33 that they can bring down I'll be sure they get compensated for the time and effort. Please try calling me at 925/216-0569. If you don't get an answer, call 718/930-8092 and ask for me, and say it's regarding the teletype. TIA!! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Oct 6 13:52:08 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 14:52:08 -0400 Subject: Big-assed Nerd belt buckle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43457258.1090105@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > For the hickish nerds: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8224062317 ARE YOU LOOKIN' AT ME? I'm embarassed to admit that I sort of want it.... Doc From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 6 13:55:12 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 11:55:12 -0700 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <0INY00LNGA6O34BU@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0INY00LNGA6O34BU@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510061155120300.4386D9AB@10.0.0.252> On 10/6/2005 at 2:04 PM Allison wrote >Ideally someone on the US west coast can handle it and ship the data via >internet. We're only about 550 miles north on Interstate 5 from San Francsico and data recovery and conversion is what we do. We handle 8" diskettes, CP/M and otherwise, hard/soft sectored, GCR, etc. No problem. And you haven't LIVED until you've had to work with diskettes used in a machine shop. Filthy, greasy things that look like they've spent time in someone's oil sump. Fortunately, I still have a stash of Freon TF... That said, give me 8" diskettes any day over 5.25" and 3.5" when it comes to reliability. I've got diskettes from 1976 that read as well as when they were new. I have 3.5" DSHD diskettes that won't read right a month after purchase. Cheers, Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 6 14:03:27 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need help on multibus HD controller Message-ID: <200510061903.MAA09571@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I've acquired hard disk controller card. I'm in need of some information on it as well as I seem to be missing at least one PROM. The board uses the WD1100 parts with a 8X300 control processor. It has an array of 9 sockets for program of the 8X300 ( only 3 are populated on my board ). It has 3 locations for MK4802 SRAM's and a 82S191 ( also missing ). It is manufactured by Codata Systems Corp and has a part number 92-1011-01. I was hoping that someone might have information on this or have one of these boards that I could get a copy of at least the 82S191. I suspect that the 3 PROMs I do have are sufficient to run the 8X300. I would guess the additional sockets are for expansion of control. Other 8X300 controllers I've seen use less code. I'd guess the 82S191 had formatting information on it since it is on the data side of the 8X300, along with the RAM. Any help would be great. Thanks Dwight From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 14:06:08 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 15:06:08 -0400 Subject: Need ASR-32/33 in Brooklyn, NY area ASAP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434575A0.5040700@gmail.com> Sorry, I only have a 43. Peace... Sridhar Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I shipped an ASR-32 into NY for a movie shoot and all was going relatively > well until I tried to run a punched tape through. Now wrong characters > are being printed (i.e. C comes out as K, return and linefeed don't work > but instead print characters). Something's stuck/slipped but I have > niether the skill nor time to try to diagnose and repair (though I'm > trying). > > If someone in the NY city area has an ASR-32/33 that they can bring down > I'll be sure they get compensated for the time and effort. > > Please try calling me at 925/216-0569. If you don't get an answer, call > 718/930-8092 and ask for me, and say it's regarding the teletype. > > TIA!! > From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Oct 6 14:13:39 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 20:13:39 +0100 Subject: ASR33 platten problem Message-ID: <000501c5caaa$0fb1f8a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi All, in the process of repairing an ASR33 for someone else, I've found that the platten roller moulding has swollen, so that it no longer turns in the end plates. Has anyone else come across this problem, or know what may have caused it? (I suspect exposure to a solvent at sometime in the past). Luckily, I have a spare platten assembly! Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 10:07:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:07:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: "screen mold" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051005221055.433f2bea@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Oct 5, 5 10:10:55 pm Message-ID: > > Actually I think there's THREE green ones but I could be wrong. I don't > think I've ever looked to see which models are one my 9845s. I was only aware of a total of 3 different monitors for the 9845. There's the standard monochrome one (could this take an internal graphics board as an option?), the enhanced mono one (98780) and the colour one (98770) These monitors, of course, contain much of the video display circuity. The ehanced mnonochrome monitor must contain around 200 chips, including an HP custom thing in a 64 pin DIL package with heatsink pillars that bolt to the side of the case. It is clearly an address generator for doing things like line drawing. I am told the colour one is even more fun inside, with a board of AMD 29xx bitslice ICs. Alas I don't have one, and there's little chance of me finding one (it would have to be local to me, there's no way it could be shipped). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 10:34:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:34:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11 Hard Drives In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 6, 5 09:04:07 am Message-ID: > ================ VAX730 IDC > > R80 121M 31 14 559 dec built; winchester; SMD interface > (RM80 with SMD/Massbus converter) NO, more accurately the RM80 is an R80 with a Massbus addapter. The R80 is not an RM80 with something added. And the interface is close to SMD, but different enough that you can't connect the R80 to an SMD controller or a normal SMD drive to a 11/730 IDC. [...] > Floppy [...] > RX50 400K 10 1 80 5.25" single sided, dual drive > FM encoding There's no reason at all why the RX50 can't use MFM encoding, and I thought that's how it was normally used. Certainly the Rainbow uses an MFM controller. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 10:12:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:12:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: CRT implosions In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051005221224.328725ea@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Oct 5, 5 10:12:24 pm Message-ID: > >At least one service manual I have suggests wearing a leather apron to > >proctect 'those other important bits' :-) > > LOL! Did it actually say that? :-) I've never seen a manual that got > that direct. OK, it was a slight misquote. Here's the actual text, from Support Note 7 for the Whitechapel MG1 (CET Adjustments to the Monitor Unit of the MG-1). 'All persons handling a crt should be wearing the following items : a) Gauntlets to protect the hands b) A Class 1 British Stanadrd BS2092 (impact resistant) face visor with headband, to project face and eyes. c) Canvas apron to protect those other precious parts ' -tony > > Joe > > > >-tony > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 10:18:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:18:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Univac panel and mystery TTL chips In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20051005145034.03328668@mail.saccade.com> from "J. Peterson" at Oct 5, 5 04:15:08 pm Message-ID: > No? OK, time for plan B, reverse engineering it. Most of the chips on the > panel are straightforward 74xxx TTL, however, a number of them appear to > have a seven digit part number instead of a regular 74xxx stamp. Is there a A number of manufacturers used house-coded ICs like this. HP are the best-known (the 1820-xxxx numbers), but ICL, Xerox and I believe IBM did it too. The main reason for this, apparently was that any IC with that house code would work in the circuit. So there might be one number for a generic 7493 and another for a specifically TI 7493 (I think that's the chip were the TI one has a slight difference to others). TO have the house code simplified manufacturing. > translation guide between this seven digit number and regular 74xxx > numbers? Most of the 74xxx parts on the board also have these seven digit > numbers. Well, with ICs marked with both, you can start to make the equivalents list. If you are very lucky that will identify a few more ICs on the board. > > Any tips on how to guess the actual function would be most appreciated. Well, you can find the power connections, right? If you are lucky, there will be a few ICs with odd power connections (i.e. not the corner pins) which will be a start. Then you might be abloe to identify some pins as definite inputs (driven from totem-pole outputs on known ICs), others as definite outputs (only go to known inputs). If all else fails you may have to desoler the IC, power it up on a breadboard, find outputs with a logic probe, try the inputs, and so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 10:44:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:44:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: ASR33 platten problem In-Reply-To: <000501c5caaa$0fb1f8a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> from "Jim Beacon" at Oct 6, 5 08:13:39 pm Message-ID: > > Hi All, > > in the process of repairing an ASR33 for someone else, I've found that the > platten roller moulding has swollen, so that it no longer turns in the end > plates. Has anyone else come across this problem, or know what may have > caused it? (I suspect exposure to a solvent at sometime in the past). > > Luckily, I have a spare platten assembly! Well, presumably all you really needed was the roller? Since the old one is useless in its current state, it might be worth putting the roller in a lathe and turning down the bearing areas. This would be a pretty easy job ofr anyone with a metalwork lathe, so even if you don't have access to one yourself, you might find a friend who would do it for you. The sort of people who make model steam engines almost always have a suitable lathe... -tony From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 6 14:29:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need ASR-32/33 in Brooklyn, NY area ASAP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm actually more accessible currently on e-mail than by phone so please e-mail me if you can help. Thanks! On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I shipped an ASR-32 into NY for a movie shoot and all was going relatively > well until I tried to run a punched tape through. Now wrong characters > are being printed (i.e. C comes out as K, return and linefeed don't work > but instead print characters). Something's stuck/slipped but I have > niether the skill nor time to try to diagnose and repair (though I'm > trying). > > If someone in the NY city area has an ASR-32/33 that they can bring down > I'll be sure they get compensated for the time and effort. > > Please try calling me at 925/216-0569. If you don't get an answer, call > 718/930-8092 and ask for me, and say it's regarding the teletype. > > TIA!! > > -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 10:48:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:48:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need ASR-32/33 in Brooklyn, NY area ASAP In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Oct 6, 5 11:35:24 am Message-ID: > > > I shipped an ASR-32 into NY for a movie shoot and all was going relatively > well until I tried to run a punched tape through. Now wrong characters > are being printed (i.e. C comes out as K, return and linefeed don't work > but instead print characters). Something's stuck/slipped but I have > niether the skill nor time to try to diagnose and repair (though I'm > trying). Was it alright before you read the tape after moving the machine? And does it now malfunction if you type the characters on the keyboard? Try pulling the reader plug from the back of the call control unit (it's one of 6,7,8, the other 2 being the keyboard and the distributor disk, trace the cable to find which is which). IF there;s a short in the reader, that would elminate it. Do you know if the problem is on the transmit side or receive side? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 6 14:52:34 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 12:52:34 -0700 Subject: Need help on multibus HD controller In-Reply-To: <200510061903.MAA09571@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200510061903.MAA09571@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200510061252340560.43BB5FFF@10.0.0.252> I've got the OEM manual for the WD 1001 controller, if that'd help. Chuck From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 6 16:05:57 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 16:05:57 Subject: Univac panel and mystery TTL chips In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.5.2.20051005145034.03328668@mail.saccade.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051006160557.3baf969c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:18 PM 10/6/05 +0100, you wrote: > >> No? OK, time for plan B, reverse engineering it. Most of the chips on the >> panel are straightforward 74xxx TTL, however, a number of them appear to >> have a seven digit part number instead of a regular 74xxx stamp. Is there a > >A number of manufacturers used house-coded ICs like this. HP are the >best-known (the 1820-xxxx numbers), but ICL, Xerox and I believe IBM did >it too. The main reason for this, apparently was that any IC with that >house code would work in the circuit. So there might be one number for a >generic 7493 and another for a specifically TI 7493 (I think that's the >chip were the TI one has a slight difference to others). TO have the >house code simplified manufacturing. > > >> translation guide between this seven digit number and regular 74xxx >> numbers? Most of the 74xxx parts on the board also have these seven digit >> numbers. > >Well, with ICs marked with both, you can start to make the equivalents >list. If you are very lucky that will identify a few more ICs on the board. > >> >> Any tips on how to guess the actual function would be most appreciated. If they're TTL or CMOS SSI ICs I have an IC tester that will id unknown ICs. It's not 100% perfect since a lot of ICs have very similar functions but it'll get you close enough that you can figure out the pinout and it's basic functions. > >Well, you can find the power connections, right? If you are lucky, there >will be a few ICs with odd power connections (i.e. not the corner pins) >which will be a start. > >Then you might be abloe to identify some pins as definite inputs (driven >from totem-pole outputs on known ICs), others as definite outputs (only >go to known inputs). > >If all else fails you may have to desoler the IC, power it up on a >breadboard, find outputs with a logic probe, try the inputs, and so on. I used to have an article out of one of the electronics magazines that told how to identify various pins on ICs using an ohm meter. Input pins, output pins and power and ground pins all have different characteristics. Unfortunatly I lost the article. Does anyone have any info on how to go about doing this? But all in all I like Tony's Suggestion of looking for the parts with dual markings and make a cross reference list. When you get done, post it on the net to benefit everyone. Spere has a good start on HP and Tektronix cross reference on their website. Joe > >-tony > From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Oct 6 15:10:43 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 21:10:43 +0100 Subject: ASR33 platten problem References: Message-ID: <000401c5cab2$085c8e00$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> > > in the process of repairing an ASR33 for someone else, I've found that the > > platten roller moulding has swollen, so that it no longer turns in the end > > plates. Has anyone else come across this problem, or know what may have > > caused it? (I suspect exposure to a solvent at sometime in the past). > > > > Luckily, I have a spare platten assembly! > > Well, presumably all you really needed was the roller? > > Since the old one is useless in its current state, it might be worth > putting the roller in a lathe and turning down the bearing areas. This > would be a pretty easy job ofr anyone with a metalwork lathe, so even if > you don't have access to one yourself, you might find a friend who would > do it for you. The sort of people who make model steam engines almost > always have a suitable lathe... > > -tony > Tony, I had considered skimming the roller, and if it was my machine I would, however, as the machine is going elsewhere, I'm opting for replacement (I don't like my repairs coming back after a couple of months.........) Jim. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 6 15:11:16 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 16:11:16 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 Hard Drives Message-ID: <0INY00GKFG2J6FQY@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-11 Hard Drives > From: "Joe R." > Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 14:25:01 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At 09:17 AM 10/6/05 -0400, Allison wrote: >>> >>>Subject: PDP-11 Hard Drives >>> From: Madcrow Maxwell >>> Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 08:40:54 -0400 >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> >>>I've been looking for a list of the various hard drive units available >>>for the PDP-11 and their capacites, but have not been able to find one >>>online. Can anybody help me out here? >> >>Reason is your asking too broad a question. >> >>PDP-11 was a series of CPUs/systems that used at least 4 busses and >>an even greater array of storage facilities over the period from 1970 >>to current(yes current!). So to even start answering the question. >> >>What cpu or bus? Or what time period? Fixed or removable? > > And factory and/or 3rd party drives. If you want to include 3rd party it >would take a book to list them all! > > Joe I also forgot to ask what OS as tere wer device limits on some such as exists with RT-11 (32mb per logical device). And what generation of OS such as Unix V6 (no mscp). Allison From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 6 15:27:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASR-32 troubleshooting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just found that if I hold down the third typebar from the rear the correct characters come out. Any ideas what's happening here? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 6 15:34:26 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASR33 platten problem Message-ID: <200510062034.NAA09613@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jim Beacon" > > >> > in the process of repairing an ASR33 for someone else, I've found that >the >> > platten roller moulding has swollen, so that it no longer turns in the >end >> > plates. Has anyone else come across this problem, or know what may have >> > caused it? (I suspect exposure to a solvent at sometime in the past). >> > >> > Luckily, I have a spare platten assembly! >> >> Well, presumably all you really needed was the roller? >> >> Since the old one is useless in its current state, it might be worth >> putting the roller in a lathe and turning down the bearing areas. This >> would be a pretty easy job ofr anyone with a metalwork lathe, so even if >> you don't have access to one yourself, you might find a friend who would >> do it for you. The sort of people who make model steam engines almost >> always have a suitable lathe... >> >> -tony >> > >Tony, > >I had considered skimming the roller, and if it was my machine I would, >however, as the machine is going elsewhere, I'm opting for replacement (I >don't like my repairs coming back after a couple of months.........) > >Jim. Hi It is most likely the oil used. Some oils swell the rubber while others shrink it. Your not suppose to have so much oil that the platten gets soaked. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 6 16:00:29 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 14:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASR-32 troubleshooting Message-ID: <200510062100.OAA09636@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > >I just found that if I hold down the third typebar from the rear the >correct characters come out. Any ideas what's happening here? > Hi It isn't clear if you have a reader or printer problem. Does it work fine from the keyboard in local? If so, it is most likely in the reader. If it is the reader, look for a spring that may be disconnected or a piece of crud inside. Try disconnecting the motor power and operating by hand. Remember that when going slow, you need to lockup the clutches by hand by squeezing the two tabs together or they will drag. With the motor power off, you can turn the fan and go slow. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 6 16:02:31 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 14:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need ASR-32/33 in Brooklyn, NY area ASAP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > Was it alright before you read the tape after moving the machine? And > does it now malfunction if you type the characters on the keyboard? Yes, it was working just fine until I attempted to read a tape I had just punched with it. After that, C would come out as K, carriage return as D, linefeed as A, etc. > Try pulling the reader plug from the back of the call control unit (it's > one of 6,7,8, the other 2 being the keyboard and the distributor disk, > trace the cable to find which is which). IF there;s a short in the > reader, that would elminate it. The reader unit plugs into a module that was installed inside the stand. At first the reader wasn't working because I had unplugged this (the TTY has been separated from the stand). After I plugged this in the reader started to work but the characters were coming out wrong (this is when it started). Unplugging that module does not fix the problem. > Do you know if the problem is on the transmit side or receive side? I think it's on the transmit side. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 6 16:03:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 14:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASR-32 troubleshooting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I just found that if I hold down the third typebar from the rear the > correct characters come out. Any ideas what's happening here? I've been told the correct terminology for this is "code bale". If I hold it down at any point along its length then the previously non-working characters (C, V, CR, LF, etc.) now work. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 6 16:07:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 14:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASR-32 troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200510062100.OAA09636@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > It isn't clear if you have a reader or printer problem. > Does it work fine from the keyboard in local? If so, > it is most likely in the reader. No, it does not work from the keyboard, which is how I've been testing it. > If it is the reader, look for a spring that may be disconnected > or a piece of crud inside. Try disconnecting the motor power I did find a loose spring but replaced it and still no go. I've been blowing out all the loose, oil-soaked chads but I haven't yet blown out the magic one. > and operating by hand. Remember that when going slow, you need > to lockup the clutches by hand by squeezing the two tabs together > or they will drag. With the motor power off, you can turn the > fan and go slow. Where's the clutch? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 6 16:12:45 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 14:12:45 -0700 Subject: Univac panel and mystery TTL chips References: <5.1.1.5.2.20051005145034.03328668@mail.saccade.com> Message-ID: <4345934D.DE94CFE0@cs.ubc.ca> (One possibility would be to look on bitsavers for UNIVAC manual/schematics from the same period, in the hopes it might list the part numbers you're looking for.) (And while it doesn't help much in this case with the ICs soldered in, house-numbered ICs sometimes have the 'real' part number stamped on the underside of the IC, sometimes with an apostrophe replacing the prefix, e.g. a 7404 might have on the underside: '04 , along with some other gobbledy-gook letters.) If you intend to reverse engineer it I would suggest proceeding to do so, even without knowing what the unknown ICs are. Leave the unknown ICs as black boxes in your schematic. There is a high probabilty you can figure out the function of the unknowns with a little analysis of the schematic. For the majority of circuits, inputs and outputs can be identified with the application of a little logic such as: - if unknown-pin is connected only to input pins of known devices, then unknown-pin must be an output. - if unknown-pin is connected (perhaps with inputs on other devices) to an output pin of a known device, then unknown-pin must be an input. (The general rule being that one-and-only-one output can drive one-or-more inputs.) Once the inputs and outputs have been identified a little more observation of the schematic and the functionality may well be discernable. Of course, keep a TTL (in this case) reference manual at hand to help correlate pinouts. Some TI manuals (e.g. TI TTL Data Book/2nd Ed./1981) tend to be good for this because they have all the pinouts collected within a few pages. Yes, there are always exceptions to the above such as open-collector or tri-state circuits, paralleled buffers, some devices may not be 7400 series: perhaps specialised IC or 75000 series interface IC, etc., but considering the nature of what you are dealing with (a front panel, in which you already have a lot of known inputs & outputs (switch & lamps), along with known ICs), I'd say your chances of figuring everything out are good. Sometimes one can be mislead when a connection to a pin is actually just a 'way' for the trace, but considering the fineness of the PCB traces, that may be less likely to be an issue in this instance that it is on earlier boards. It all makes for a rather fun puzzle actually, once you get past the tedium of tracing traces. (Qualification for making such a suggestion: Not to toot my own horn too much, but just so you know I'm not blowing wind and suggesting 'Oh, it could in principle be done like this', I have reverse engineered entire machines (mostly early calculators) containing up to 250 SSI/MSI ICs, and in which all the ICs were black-boxes (no info or cross-reference available), and managed to produce the complete logic schematic, followed by successfully building a logic-gate-level simulation of the machine, which, for the most part, 'proves' the schematic.) (e.g. http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/ics/M5300.html) "J. Peterson" wrote: > > Hi, > > I have a control panel from a Univac mainframe that I hope to re-animate > someday. Unfortunately I know very little about Univac mainframes. > > First I'll go for broke: does anybody recognize this unit and have > schematics for it? > > http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/UnivacPanel/UnivacPanel.html > > No? OK, time for plan B, reverse engineering it. Most of the chips on the > panel are straightforward 74xxx TTL, however, a number of them appear to > have a seven digit part number instead of a regular 74xxx stamp. Is there a > translation guide between this seven digit number and regular 74xxx > numbers? Most of the 74xxx parts on the board also have these seven digit > numbers. > > Any tips on how to guess the actual function would be most appreciated. > > Thanks, > John Peterson > www.saccade.com From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Oct 6 17:22:17 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 23:22:17 +0100 Subject: ASR33 platten problem References: <200510062034.NAA09613@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000701c5cac4$69642a20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > It is most likely the oil used. Some oils swell the rubber > while others shrink it. Your not suppose to have so much oil > that the platten gets soaked. > > Dwight, it is the actual plastic molding which has swollen, at the bearing point. There is very little oil on any of the platten assembly, but I think that may well have been the cause. Jim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 13:46:05 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 19:46:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Univac panel and mystery TTL chips In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051006160557.3baf969c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Oct 6, 5 04:05:57 pm Message-ID: > >Then you might be abloe to identify some pins as definite inputs (driven > >from totem-pole outputs on known ICs), others as definite outputs (only > >go to known inputs). > > > >If all else fails you may have to desoler the IC, power it up on a > >breadboard, find outputs with a logic probe, try the inputs, and so on. > > I used to have an article out of one of the electronics magazines that > told how to identify various pins on ICs using an ohm meter. Input pins, > output pins and power and ground pins all have different characteristics. Be warned that this sort of test depends critically on the particular logic family, and the type of ohmmeter in use. As you hace the chip on a circuit board, you can easily find pins that are tied to +5V or ground (you _must_ be able to find those 2 rails on the board, if nothing else by starting from a chip you know the number and pinout of). OK, there may be pins other than the Vcc and Gnd pins that are connected to those points on the unknown chip (e.g. unused inputs), but I think you should be able to indentify the actual power and ground pins fairly easily. > Unfortunatly I lost the article. Does anyone have any info on how to go > about doing this? How about starting with a known IC of the family you're interested in and recording the results for your meter between various combinations of the pins? > > But all in all I like Tony's Suggestion of looking for the parts with > dual markings and make a cross reference list. When you get done, post it > on the net to benefit everyone. Spere has a good start on HP and Tektronix > cross reference on their website. I know for a fact that some of the IC's on that HP list were indetified by finding dual-marked ones on HP boards. And others were indentified by finding inputs and outputs and indentifying the functions. I know this, because I did it :-) There was a good HP equivalent list published _by HP_ in Bench Briefs at one point. It was half a dozen pages, 3 columns, fairly small font. I haev it, but I know it wouldn't stand scanning or copying, and I don't feel like typing it all in. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 13:47:58 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 19:47:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: ASR33 platten problem In-Reply-To: <000401c5cab2$085c8e00$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> from "Jim Beacon" at Oct 6, 5 09:10:43 pm Message-ID: > I had considered skimming the roller, and if it was my machine I would, > however, as the machine is going elsewhere, I'm opting for replacement (I > don't like my repairs coming back after a couple of months.........) Sure, as you have the right spare part, fit it. Saves a lot of problems. I would still have a go at skimming the old roller. It would be intereting to see what happens, and if the repair 'holds' (does it continue to swell, or what). Somebody might need to do this repair in the future and not have a suitable repalcement part. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 13:50:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 19:50:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: ASR-32 troubleshooting In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Oct 6, 5 01:27:30 pm Message-ID: > > > I just found that if I hold down the third typebar from the rear the > correct characters come out. Any ideas what's happening here? Assuming those are the rails the carriage runs over, those are effectively a 'data bus' carrying the bits of the incoming character (converted to parallel from the incoming serial bitstream by the cam mechanism at the rear left of the typing unit). For some reason, one bit is set that shouldn't be. Either there's something playing up in that receiver cam unit, or the transmitter side is setting a bit that it shouldn't be. Is this an ASR32 (5 bit) or ASR33 (7 bit) machine? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 13:54:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 19:54:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need ASR-32/33 in Brooklyn, NY area ASAP In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Oct 6, 5 02:02:31 pm Message-ID: > > > Try pulling the reader plug from the back of the call control unit (it's > > one of 6,7,8, the other 2 being the keyboard and the distributor disk, > > trace the cable to find which is which). IF there;s a short in the > > reader, that would elminate it. > > The reader unit plugs into a module that was installed inside the stand. No. (Well, it does, but that's not what I meant). There's a cable harness that attached to the reader. It splits into 3 sections. One goes down to the stand and plugs into that module you've found. This is the power supply for the solenoid in the reader itself. One little branch connects to the leaf contact switch on top of the transmiter shafter in the typing unit. And the 3rd branch plugs into the back of the call control unit. It's that last one I want you to unplug. At least, that's how an ASR33 is wired. If this is a 32, I assume it's similar. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 14:14:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 20:14:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Univac panel and mystery TTL chips In-Reply-To: <4345934D.DE94CFE0@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Oct 6, 5 02:12:45 pm Message-ID: > > (One possibility would be to look on bitsavers for UNIVAC manual/schematics > from the same period, in the hopes it might list the part numbers you're > looking for.) HP were often particularly kind about this, their manuals, if they contained full parts lists, did give the equivalents. Alas most HP desktop computer and calculator manuals are boardswapper guides, but... > > (And while it doesn't help much in this case with the ICs soldered in, > house-numbered ICs sometimes have the 'real' part number stamped on the > underside of the IC, sometimes with an apostrophe replacing the prefix, e.g. a > 7404 might have on the underside: '04 , along with some other gobbledy-gook letters.) If all else fails, I've even been known to desolder the IC to firstly look at the underside, secondly to look at the PCB (I once found the normal uumber in the silk-screen under the IC -- this was in a device where all the IC numbers had been sanded off to keep me guessing for at least 5 minutes!), and thirdly to test the IC on a breadboard. > Once the inputs and outputs have been identified a little more observation of > the schematic and the functionality may well be discernable. Of course, keep a > TTL (in this case) reference manual at hand to help correlate pinouts. Some TI Even if like me, you've got the common TTL pinouts hard-wired into your brain :-) > It all makes for a rather fun puzzle actually, once you get past the tedium of > tracing traces. Having done this to a fair few devices, I would agree with you. > > (Qualification for making such a suggestion: Not to toot my own horn too much, > but just so you know I'm not blowing wind and suggesting 'Oh, it could in > principle be done like this', I have reverse engineered entire machines (mostly > early calculators) containing up to 250 SSI/MSI ICs, and in which all the The most complicated calcualtor I ever did only contained 8 ICs. And those only had 8 pins each. What made it interesting were the several hundred transistors, the thousand-or-so diodes, core memory, core-on-a-rope ROM, and a PCB ROM. No, I haven't extracted the contents of the ROMs yet.... (HP9100B if you're wondering). Fortunately, for the later HP desktops, I had the equivalents list, so most of the non-custom ICs were known. Figuring out details of the custom parts was one interesting bit. As, of course, was working out how the whole machine was supposed to work. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 6 18:16:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASR-32 troubleshooting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > Assuming those are the rails the carriage runs over, those are > effectively a 'data bus' carrying the bits of the incoming character > (converted to parallel from the incoming serial bitstream by the cam > mechanism at the rear left of the typing unit). For some reason, one bit > is set that shouldn't be. Either there's something playing up in that > receiver cam unit, or the transmitter side is setting a bit that it > shouldn't be. > > Is this an ASR32 (5 bit) or ASR33 (7 bit) machine? It's an ASR32. The problem turned out to be a tine in the reader that slipped out of its linkage. I fixed that and now everything is working again. Phew! Thanks for all the suggestions and advice! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 6 18:17:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need ASR-32/33 in Brooklyn, NY area ASAP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > There's a cable harness that attached to the reader. It splits into 3 > sections. One goes down to the stand and plugs into that module you've > found. This is the power supply for the solenoid in the reader itself. > One little branch connects to the leaf contact switch on top of the > transmiter shafter in the typing unit. And the 3rd branch plugs into the > back of the call control unit. It's that last one I want you to unplug. Right, this is what I eventually figured out. I didn't realize the reader cables banched off to different points. Once I found that and unplugged the cable to the call control unit the problem went away, isolating the problem to the reader. I then removed the reader and examined it more closely and saw the tine out of place. How it got that way is beyond me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Oct 6 18:09:14 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 00:09:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: KIM-1 repair advice wanted Message-ID: <10510070009.ZM14109@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> As some of you know, I'm helping with an exhibition of classic machines in the Department of Computer Science -- for Open Day tomorrow (Friday), and running conducted tours on Wednesday as well. Well, one of the supposedly-working exhibits is my KIM-1, but it died this afternoon. I can't get it to do more than occasionally display a single zero, on the leftmost 7-segment display. A cursory look with a logic probe (and no docs to hand) shows the clock is running and at least a few address lines are too. I bet it's a memory fault. What are the common faults? I'm hoping it's one of the 2102 RAMs, because I stand a chance of having a suitable replacement. However, I fear it's more likely a 6530, and I assume they're unobtanium. Has anyone ever come up with a kludge to effectively use a 6532 (and are they any easier to find?) with an EPROM? Or anything else? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 6 19:14:10 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 19:14:10 Subject: Univac panel and mystery TTL chips In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20051006160557.3baf969c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051006191410.3caf2924@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:46 PM 10/6/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >Then you might be abloe to identify some pins as definite inputs (driven >> >from totem-pole outputs on known ICs), others as definite outputs (only >> >go to known inputs). >> > >> >If all else fails you may have to desoler the IC, power it up on a >> >breadboard, find outputs with a logic probe, try the inputs, and so on. >> >> I used to have an article out of one of the electronics magazines that >> told how to identify various pins on ICs using an ohm meter. Input pins, >> output pins and power and ground pins all have different characteristics. > >Be warned that this sort of test depends critically on the particular >logic family, and the type of ohmmeter in use. > >As you hace the chip on a circuit board, you can easily find pins that >are tied to +5V or ground (you _must_ be able to find those 2 rails on >the board, if nothing else by starting from a chip you know the >number and pinout of). OK, there may be pins other than the Vcc and Gnd >pins that are connected to those points on the unknown chip (e.g. unused >inputs), but I think you should be able to indentify the actual power and >ground pins fairly easily. > >> Unfortunatly I lost the article. Does anyone have any info on how to go >> about doing this? > >How about starting with a known IC of the family you're interested in and >recording the results for your meter between various combinations of the >pins? > >> >> But all in all I like Tony's Suggestion of looking for the parts with >> dual markings and make a cross reference list. When you get done, post it >> on the net to benefit everyone. Spere has a good start on HP and Tektronix >> cross reference on their website. > >I know for a fact that some of the IC's on that HP list were indetified >by finding dual-marked ones on HP boards. And others were indentified by >finding inputs and outputs and indentifying the functions. I know this, >because I did it :-) They also got a good number of the crosses from instrument service manuals. Unlike the calculator manuals, the instrument manuals usually gave the HP PN, manufacturer code and manufacturer's PN. I supplied a lot of the instrument part number listings to Sphere also some of the numbers from the dual marked parts. > >There was a good HP equivalent list published _by HP_ in Bench Briefs at >one point. Bench Briefs published a series of issues with cross references. I don't remember if each one carried a different range of PNs or if they broke them up by equipmnet useage or what but I know the cross reference was spread over a good number of issues. I had a fair number of BBs but never had the whole cross reference. Joe It was half a dozen pages, 3 columns, fairly small font. I >haev it, but I know it wouldn't stand scanning or copying, and I don't >feel like typing it all in. > >-tony > From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 6 18:43:52 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <10510070009.ZM14109@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Oct 7, 5 00:09:14 am" Message-ID: <200510062343.QAA09330@floodgap.com> > Well, one of the supposedly-working exhibits is my KIM-1, but it died > this afternoon. I can't get it to do more than occasionally display a > single zero, on the leftmost 7-segment display. A cursory look with a > logic probe (and no docs to hand) shows the clock is running and at > least a few address lines are too. I bet it's a memory fault. > > What are the common faults? I'm hoping it's one of the 2102 RAMs, > because I stand a chance of having a suitable replacement. However, I > fear it's more likely a 6530, and I assume they're unobtanium. Has > anyone ever come up with a kludge to effectively use a 6532 (and are > they any easier to find?) with an EPROM? Or anything else? 6532s are definitely not pin-compatible, and I've never seen any means of converting them or integrating an EPROM for the mask ROM component. My own KIM-1 is a little flaky and after awhile will do something similar, but usually only after it's been running for some time or if there was a power fault (and RS usually sets it right). You could try replacing the RAM, but I don't think that explains your symptoms. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my personalities each need therapy." ----- From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 6 19:44:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 19:44:04 Subject: Interesting stuff on E-bay Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051006194404.3caf198a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I just posted these: 'A Pocket Guide to the 2100 Computer' Hewlett Packard '72 Drytek S-100 I/O card Clamp On Ampmeter with 5 Scales (You have to see this one!) Sperry Univac Computer Quick Reference Card 1978 HP 35 calculator box, manual, charger Adobe Acrobat 5.0 New in Box DEC A8000 ADV11-C 16-channel 12-bit A-to-D Converter card Also some DEC cards and other interesting items. see Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 16:03:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 22:03:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <10510070009.ZM14109@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 7, 5 00:09:14 am Message-ID: > fear it's more likely a 6530, and I assume they're unobtanium. Has > anyone ever come up with a kludge to effectively use a 6532 (and are > they any easier to find?) with an EPROM? Or anything else? My Commodore 8250LP disk drive has an official kludgeboard in what seems to be a socket designed for an 6530. It contains a 6532, a ROM, and a simple TTL chip ('04 or something like that). IIRC, though, the chip select levels of the 6530 were mask-programmable, so this might not work in all cases. And I don't think I can get any details of this to you by tomorrow anyway. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 6 16:10:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 22:10:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need ASR-32/33 in Brooklyn, NY area ASAP In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Oct 6, 5 04:17:59 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > There's a cable harness that attached to the reader. It splits into 3 > > sections. One goes down to the stand and plugs into that module you've > > found. This is the power supply for the solenoid in the reader itself. > > One little branch connects to the leaf contact switch on top of the > > transmiter shafter in the typing unit. And the 3rd branch plugs into the > > back of the call control unit. It's that last one I want you to unplug. > > Right, this is what I eventually figured out. I didn't realize the reader > cables banched off to different points. Once I found that and unplugged Yes... The reader contacts (those operated by what Creed would have called the 'peckers' :-)) are effectively in parallel with the keyboard contacts. Both devices give a parallel output, of course. They then link, via wires in the call control unit, to the distributor disk, which serialises the data. The reader has a big solenoid at the bottom that lifts the peckers to read the tape and then, when it gets de-energised, operates a ratchet to advance the tape. This is poweed by the PSU in the stand (warning : this is not isolated from the mains supply!), and is controled by the leaf contact on top of the transmit shaft. To operate the reader, a little solenoid there is energised. This releases the clutch lever, causing the transmit shaft to rotate and turn the distributor bush. That lever also closes the leaf contact, energising the reader soelnoid. After each character (rotation of the transmit shaft), the lever is forced forwards again, and will latch there if the trip solenoid is de-energised (the reader is turned off). Of coruse as it comes forwared, it opens the leaf contact, de-energising the reader solenoid and advancing the tape. > the cable to the call control unit the problem went away, isolating the > problem to the reader. I then removed the reader and examined it more > closely and saw the tine out of place. How it got that way is beyond me. That was going to be my guess, actually, but I never post guesses without some evidence (that is, getting you to do some tests first. -tony From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 6 20:13:03 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 18:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASR-32 troubleshooting Message-ID: <200510070113.SAA09703@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >The problem turned out to be a tine in the reader that slipped out of its >linkage. I fixed that and now everything is working again. > >Phew! > >Thanks for all the suggestions and advice! Hi Sellam Sorry I didn't get back to you right away ( I do have a job ). There are a number of clutches along the main shaft. Each one is the shiny disks that you see along the shaft. I forget how many there are (4 or 5 as I recall ). There is a little paw that lifts up to allow each clutch to engage, doing any number of things like resetting keyboard or running some other function. When the paw is down there are two little tabs that stick out from the clutch and rotate when the clutch is engaged. When the forward tab hits the paw, it should disengage the clutch. When the machine is running at speed, inertia causes the two tabs to push together, fully releasing the clutch. When running slow by hand, you need to squeeze the two together when the forward tab hit the paw. This fully disengages the clutch. I know this is a little late but in the future it should help. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 6 20:25:25 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 18:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KIM-1 repair advice wanted Message-ID: <200510070125.SAA09708@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> fear it's more likely a 6530, and I assume they're unobtanium. Has >> anyone ever come up with a kludge to effectively use a 6532 (and are >> they any easier to find?) with an EPROM? Or anything else? > >My Commodore 8250LP disk drive has an official kludgeboard in what seems >to be a socket designed for an 6530. It contains a 6532, a ROM, and a >simple TTL chip ('04 or something like that). > >IIRC, though, the chip select levels of the 6530 were mask-programmable, >so this might not work in all cases. And I don't think I can get any >details of this to you by tomorrow anyway. > Hi I've seen this done for pinball machines. There are some potential issues other than just mapping the ROM. Some of the internal selects are also mask programmed ( usually different than the 6530 ). As I recall, one can even invert the data going to the port( a real pain to handle ). I think there is a document on the web someplace on making this patch. Ahh, here it is. Look at: http://www.6502.org/oldmicro/buildkim/buildkim.htm later Dwight From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 6 20:48:13 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 20:48:13 -0500 Subject: Big-assed Nerd belt buckle References: <43457258.1090105@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <006201c5cae1$2e0662f0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Doc wrote... >> For the hickish nerds: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8224062317 > > I'm embarassed to admit that I sort of want it.... I'd kinda sorta want it just a little bit - if it said "geek" instead of "nerd". J From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Oct 6 20:50:43 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 21:50:43 -0400 Subject: Big-assed Nerd belt buckle In-Reply-To: <006201c5cae1$2e0662f0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <43457258.1090105@mdrconsult.com> <006201c5cae1$2e0662f0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4345D473.2070401@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > Doc wrote... > >>> For the hickish nerds: >>> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8224062317 >> >> >> I'm embarassed to admit that I sort of want it.... > > > I'd kinda sorta want it just a little bit - if it said "geek" instead of > "nerd". Yeah. I guess my long hair isn't covering my red neck. :) Doc From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 21:19:59 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 22:19:59 -0400 Subject: Big-assed Nerd belt buckle In-Reply-To: <4345D473.2070401@mdrconsult.com> References: <43457258.1090105@mdrconsult.com> <006201c5cae1$2e0662f0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4345D473.2070401@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4345DB4F.2020104@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > >>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8224062317 >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm embarassed to admit that I sort of want it.... >> >> >> >> I'd kinda sorta want it just a little bit - if it said "geek" instead >> of "nerd". > > > Yeah. I guess my long hair isn't covering my red neck. :) BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Peace... Sridhar From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Oct 6 23:16:54 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 23:16:54 -0500 Subject: MPX-16 census Message-ID: <20051006231654.31f83c66.chenmel@earthlink.net> Does anybody else on the list have an MPX-16 system? I recently acquired one from a list member and am wondering how many of these systems still exist. I have a large (relatively) collection of diskettes with mine. The MPX-16, for those not familiar with it, was published as a project in Steve Ciarcia's 'Circuit Cellar' column in Byte magazine. It was a three part 'construction' article and the machine was sold by MicroMint for a time. What I've heard is that about 500 machines in total were produced. It's an early 'IBM Compatible' in that they designed it to be similar to the PC, but only to a certain degree. It uses a serial console rather than keyboard/display adapter, and it runs CP/M-86 and supposedly MS-DOS though I don't have DOS diskettes for mine. It has ISA slots and a similar architecture to the IBM-PC, coming out of that early era before there were PC clones from the likes of Compaq. I'm curious of how many other MPX-16 systems have survived to today. There isn't a lot about it online. I can share what information I have, as I have manuals and docs with my system. I'm interested in hearing from other people with this machine. Scott From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Thu Oct 6 23:56:49 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 06:56:49 +0200 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data References: <0INY00LNGA6O34BU@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200510061155120300.4386D9AB@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <000a01c5cafb$871f3aa0$2101a8c0@finans> Fra: "Chuck Guzis" > > That said, give me 8" diskettes any day over 5.25" and 3.5" when it comes to reliability. I've got diskettes from 1976 that read as well as when they were new. I have 3.5" DSHD diskettes that won't read right a month after purchase. > I couldnt have said that better Nico From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Oct 7 00:24:04 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 00:24:04 -0500 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <000a01c5cafb$871f3aa0$2101a8c0@finans> References: <0INY00LNGA6O34BU@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200510061155120300.4386D9AB@10.0.0.252> <000a01c5cafb$871f3aa0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <20051007002404.4f27c291.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 06:56:49 +0200 "Nico de Jong" wrote: > Fra: "Chuck Guzis" > > > > That said, give me 8" diskettes any day over 5.25" and 3.5" when it > > comes to > reliability. I've got diskettes from 1976 that read as well as when > they were new. I have 3.5" DSHD diskettes that won't read right a > month after purchase. > > > > I couldnt have said that better > > Nico > > Think about the density of the data on the diskettes (this is not a comment meant as a defense for the poor quality of magnetic media, just part of the discussion) A 1.44M floppy diskette puts a lot more data in a smaller area. The highest density 8" media I ever had was DSDD, or 720K on the big 8" surface. That's a LOT larger disk and hence a much lower density. Plus, the world of computers today has a lot more room for junk/commodity media. Anybody using floppy diskettes in 1976 had serious heavy-duty reasons for doing so. And those diskettes were EXPENSIVE. The disks you can get now at the Walgreens or a grocery store aren't the same. Further, there's no market for a high quality diskette, because 'high quality' customers have moved on to newer mediums. I got handed a new shrinkwrapped box of 8" diskettes recently at work. Finally everybody there is getting to know I am the person to hand stuff to. I'm soon to get a nice desktop HP pen plotter, too. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 7 00:26:19 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 22:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <20051007002404.4f27c291.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <0INY00LNGA6O34BU@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200510061155120300.4386D9AB@10.0.0.252> <000a01c5cafb$871f3aa0$2101a8c0@finans> <20051007002404.4f27c291.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051006222455.L21372@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > The highest density 8" media I ever had was DSDD, or > 720K on the big 8" surface. approximately 1.2M From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Fri Oct 7 00:36:16 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 07:36:16 +0200 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data References: <0INY00LNGA6O34BU@vms044.mailsrvcs.net><200510061155120300.4386D9AB@10.0.0.252><000a01c5cafb$871f3aa0$2101a8c0@finans> <20051007002404.4f27c291.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001201c5cb01$09e14050$2101a8c0@finans> Fra: "Scott Stevens" > Think about the density of the data on the diskettes (this is not a > comment meant as a defense for the poor quality of magnetic media, just > part of the discussion) A 1.44M floppy diskette puts a lot more data in > a smaller area. The highest density 8" media I ever had was DSDD, or > 720K on the big 8" surface. That's a LOT larger disk and hence a much > lower density. > > Plus, the world of computers today has a lot more room for > junk/commodity media. Anybody using floppy diskettes in 1976 had > serious heavy-duty reasons for doing so. And those diskettes were > EXPENSIVE. The disks you can get now at the Walgreens or a grocery > store aren't the same. Further, there's no market for a high quality > diskette, because 'high quality' customers have moved on to newer > mediums. > You are right about the density problem, but I dont think that an acceptable-quality medium would be so much more expensive. Things like packaging, the plastic around the disk itself, the shutter, transport & distribution costs etc etc, would still be the same. In my opinion, the problem is that computers (and hence the media) because of mass production got into the hands of the unwashed. Look at e.g. videomachines; years ago they cost and arm and a leg, and could be / would be repaired. Now that the market has become so big, things like PC, video, etc. are commodities like DIY tools, which of course are a long way from professional tools. If it doesnt work anymore, just bin it. Nico From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Oct 6 21:58:12 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 22:58:12 -0400 Subject: Big-assed Nerd belt buckle In-Reply-To: <4345DB4F.2020104@gmail.com> References: <43457258.1090105@mdrconsult.com> <006201c5cae1$2e0662f0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4345D473.2070401@mdrconsult.com> <4345DB4F.2020104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.4.2.20051006225713.032e8570@boff-net.dhs.org> What if someone made one that said: PDP/11 Pimp or DEC Ho (as in slutty person)? Hehehe... -John Boffemmyer IV At 10:19 PM 10/6/2005, you wrote: >Doc Shipley wrote: >> >>>>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8224062317 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm embarassed to admit that I sort of want it.... >>> >>> >>> >>>I'd kinda sorta want it just a little bit - if it said "geek" >>>instead of "nerd". >> >> Yeah. I guess my long hair isn't covering my red neck. :) > >BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! > >Peace... Sridhar > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/123 - Release Date: 10/6/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/123 - Release Date: 10/6/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/123 - Release Date: 10/6/2005 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 7 01:15:59 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 23:15:59 -0700 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <20051006222455.L21372@shell.lmi.net> References: <0INY00LNGA6O34BU@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200510061155120300.4386D9AB@10.0.0.252> <000a01c5cafb$871f3aa0$2101a8c0@finans> <20051007002404.4f27c291.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051006222455.L21372@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510062315590204.45F61A06@10.0.0.252> On 10/6/2005 at 10:26 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: >> The highest density 8" media I ever had was DSDD, or >> 720K on the big 8" surface. > >approximately 1.2M What surprised me is the way that the extra 3.5" data space was obtained. Always by boosting the data rate (mandating the need for new coating formulations). Never by increasing the number of tracks or changing the encoding method. The 2.88MB DSED diskettes were ridiculous--expensive AND unreliable. But point taken--the attractiveness of the floppy medium is that it's CHEAP. I've owned several LS-120 drives, but have never purchased a 120 MB SuperDisk. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 7 01:20:32 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 23:20:32 -0700 Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: <20051006231654.31f83c66.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051006231654.31f83c66.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200510062320320890.45FA471A@10.0.0.252> I ordered the MPX-16 serial card board from Circuit Cellar because it was cheaper than the IBM part at the time (it seems incredible that any computer intended for the home market would have serial I/O as an option, doesn't it?). I couldn't get it to work in a standard PC, so I figured that there was probably something very different about the MPX's bus timing or signals and I lost interest in the project. Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Oct 7 01:57:27 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 07:57:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted" (Oct 6, 22:03) References: Message-ID: <10510070757.ZM15073@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 6 2005, 22:03, Tony Duell wrote: > > fear it's more likely a 6530, and I assume they're unobtanium. Has > > anyone ever come up with a kludge to effectively use a 6532 > My Commodore 8250LP disk drive has an official kludgeboard in what seems > to be a socket designed for an 6530. It contains a 6532, a ROM, and a > simple TTL chip ('04 or something like that). Sounds like a start. I obviously can't get this fixed for, er, today, but perhaps I can look at it over the weekend. If not, it will just have to be a static display on Wednesday. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Oct 7 02:16:08 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 08:16:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: "Dwight K. Elvey" "Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted" (Oct 6, 18:25) References: <200510070125.SAA09708@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <10510070816.ZM15110@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 6 2005, 18:25, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I've seen this done for pinball machines. [ ... ] > http://www.6502.org/oldmicro/buildkim/buildkim.htm Thaks -- I'd seen that link but it's good to know someone's seen another instance in real life :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From prbotha at hotmail.com Fri Oct 7 02:46:44 2005 From: prbotha at hotmail.com (Pieter Botha) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 07:46:44 +0000 Subject: Original PDP-8 spares Message-ID: Hi About 10 years ago I obtained what seems to be the entire set of plug-boards, the two wire-wrapped backplanes as well as the complete core memory module from an original PDP-8. I also have the front panel, but I might want to keep that in my collection. I'm thinking of selling these components (possibly on eBay) to somebody who might want to keep them as spares, or who is reviving one of these monsters. The catch is that it is in South Africa, though I don't expect the postage on the cards themselves to be prohibitive. The backplanes might be a quite a bit more (heavy & large) Obviously I cannot say whether they are still working, but what I can say is that I rescued as much of the complete computer as I could from a guy who was going to sell it to a scrap iron place. He had tendered on it at a redundant equipment auction held by a prominent SA scientific institution. I had no storage space at the time so I was forced to let the (very heavy & bulky) frame and power supplies go :^( Do you guys (and gals) expect it to be worth my while listing it ? Maybe at the marketplace ? Would there be import restrictions into the USA on something like this ? Any comments greatly appreciated... Many thanks Pieter Botha ============================ _________________________________________________________________ Get a massive 2 GB e-mail inbox - upgrade to Hotmail Plus today! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-xe&DI=1054&XAPID=1816 From cc at corti-net.de Fri Oct 7 03:31:28 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 10:31:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-11 Hard Drives In-Reply-To: References: <8dd2d95c0510060540naac959ci9e4674df253e686a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > RL01 5.2M 40 2 256 2400rpm; 256B/sect; dec built; pack > RL02 10M 40 2 512 2400rpm; 512B/sect; dec built; pack ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ Ehm, that would make the RL02 20M big... It only has 256 bytes/sect. Christian From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Oct 7 04:01:01 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 02:01:01 -0700 Subject: Original PDP-8 spares In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4346394D.5000902@msm.umr.edu> Pieter Botha wrote: > Hi > > \ Core memory sets for PDP8's seem to crop up on Epay very often. I dont know if any could be traced to anyone (as in seller) who had any clue how to keep them safe from harm and have any chance of working again. If a PDP stack got in the hands of an ebay assassin, chances are good they'd destroy it as the pdp8 stack does not lend itself to opening up to have a look at the cores and then working ever again. Id you pulled them, and are on this list I'd say you'd have an item that should be sold to someone here as chances are you didn't do that to it. > > > Do you guys (and gals) expect it to be worth my while listing it ? > Maybe at the marketplace ? Would there be import restrictions into > the USA on something like this ? > Luckily anything that says "made in the USA" on it comes in w/o any argument if it is not on a commerce dept list. and pdp8's probably aren't make sure that the country of origin is identified as being the entire module made by DEC in massachusetts, and lave no doubt that the "manilla" or "singapore" on the IC's are not. I had that argument once till I pointed out the Made in USA on our boards silkscreen to one inspector. A favorite trick at one time was to solder an extra socket over a large ASIC spot that had a "made in taiwan" in the silkscreen, and have a "made in usa" one that one could solder another IC over top of once it was landed in the US. that way one board build in taiwan was good to go regardless of country of origin. I was mystified by this and had it explained to me years ago by someone, I didn't do anything like that. > Any comments greatly appreciated... > > Many thanks > Pieter Botha > > ============================ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get a massive 2 GB e-mail inbox - upgrade to Hotmail Plus today! > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-xe&DI=1054&XAPID=1816 > > From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Oct 7 05:51:45 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 12:51:45 +0200 Subject: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <10510070009.ZM14109@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <43466F61.174.FCBD1A5C@localhost> Am 7 Oct 2005 0:09 meinte Pete Turnbull: > As some of you know, I'm helping with an exhibition of classic machines > in the Department of Computer Science -- for Open Day tomorrow > (Friday), and running conducted tours on Wednesday as well. That's unusual, standard procedure is that a machine dies at the opening day at the first real presentation - no matter how often you testet before. > Well, one of the supposedly-working exhibits is my KIM-1, but it died > this afternoon. I can't get it to do more than occasionally display a > single zero, on the leftmost 7-segment display. A cursory look with a > logic probe (and no docs to hand) shows the clock is running and at > least a few address lines are too. I bet it's a memory fault. Not necersarry. Memory faults are rather rare on KIMS (in fact, I never had one). First I'd look for dirt at the connectors and arround the LED drivers, since a shortcut there might just screw everything ... I found more than one KIM where the one or more of the port lines where fried. > What are the common faults? I'm hoping it's one of the 2102 RAMs, > because I stand a chance of having a suitable replacement. However, I > fear it's more likely a 6530, and I assume they're unobtanium. Has > anyone ever come up with a kludge to effectively use a 6532 (and are > they any easier to find?) with an EPROM? Or anything else? No, not made of unobtainium, KIMs are still common, just the process of separation is rather painful :) If it's one of the 6532, a replacement needs to be build. First thing would be to connect a logic analyzer to see if the CPU is still running a programm in ROM or not. If yes, all you need is either to replace the internal RAM or the I/O Ports of the 6530. If you have to hurry, adding a 6530 via a piggy pack PCB might be a doable way - or put both onto a PCB. if there's more time, I'd go ahead and put the I/O Part of the 6530 into a CPLD, unsolder the 6530, bend the I/O pins below the chip (maybe add also some insulator) and glue and wire the CPLD onto the back of the board. Perfect disguise, as long as nobody turns the board arround. Same way if the ROM is fried (extrem unlikely): just add a some (SMD) EPROM (1K used) onto the back. Hans -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Oct 7 07:14:05 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 07:14:05 -0500 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <200510062315590204.45F61A06@10.0.0.252> References: <0INY00LNGA6O34BU@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200510061155120300.4386D9AB@10.0.0.252> <000a01c5cafb$871f3aa0$2101a8c0@finans> <20051007002404.4f27c291.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051006222455.L21372@shell.lmi.net> <200510062315590204.45F61A06@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051007071405.35730478.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 23:15:59 -0700 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 10/6/2005 at 10:26 PM Fred Cisin wrote: > > >On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > >> The highest density 8" media I ever had was DSDD, or > >> 720K on the big 8" surface. > > > >approximately 1.2M > > What surprised me is the way that the extra 3.5" data space was > obtained. Always by boosting the data rate (mandating the need for > new coating formulations). Never by increasing the number of tracks > or changing the encoding method. > > The 2.88MB DSED diskettes were ridiculous--expensive AND unreliable. > I have for a time wanted to own a 2.88 floppy drive for one and only one specific reason: to produce bootable 'floppy images' to burn to a CDROM that make it a bootable CD. It's trivial to produce 2.88 images, but you can't run the MS-DOS 'sys' command on an image. You need a real drive for that. > But point taken--the attractiveness of the floppy medium is that it's > CHEAP. I've owned several LS-120 drives, but have never purchased a > 120 MB SuperDisk. I am gradually accumulating a heap of internal Zip drives, but own no Zip 100 media. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 7 07:33:20 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 07:33:20 -0500 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <20051007071405.35730478.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <0INY00LNGA6O34BU@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200510061155120300.4386D9AB@10.0.0.252> <000a01c5cafb$871f3aa0$2101a8c0@finans> <20051007002404.4f27c291.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051006222455.L21372@shell.lmi.net> <200510062315590204.45F61A06@10.0.0.252> <20051007071405.35730478.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051007073233.04d501c8@mail> At 07:14 AM 10/7/2005, Scott Stevens wrote: >I have for a time wanted to own a 2.88 floppy drive for one and only one >specific reason: to produce bootable 'floppy images' to burn to a CDROM >that make it a bootable CD. It's trivial to produce 2.88 images, but >you can't run the MS-DOS 'sys' command on an image. You need a real >drive for that. What kind of emulator are you running that won't let you 'sys' to an image? :-) - John From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 7 09:03:27 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 10:03:27 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 Hard Drives References: <8dd2d95c0510060540naac959ci9e4674df253e686a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17222.32815.234488.755570@gargle.gargle.HOWL> I misspoke on the RS64/RC11 capacity -- it is of course 64k words, i.e., 128k bytes, 256 blocks. paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 7 09:26:14 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 15:26:14 +0100 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info Message-ID: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> One for the US members... any idea of a good usenet resource for questions relating to US wiring / electrics? (I'm thinking an equivalent to uk.d-i-y) We've got a cable decoder box here that trips out the house breakers when plugged into certain outlets - irrespective of whether it's via a surge protector (probably not surprising there) or of what other loads might be sharing the same wiring to that outlet. It works fine in other outlets though, which seems like a strange problem - but I have no idea how US houses are wired (and the wiring in this place is ancient anyway!) Be nice to get it sorted out as the cable box currently requires a cable trailing across the lounge from an outlet in another room! cheers Jules From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Fri Oct 7 09:42:01 2005 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 10:42:01 -0400 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20051007103752.01c183d0@pop.cogeco.ca> At 10:26 AM 10/7/2005, you wrote: >One for the US members... any idea of a good usenet resource for >questions relating to US wiring / electrics? (I'm thinking an >equivalent to uk.d-i-y) > >We've got a cable decoder box here that trips out the house breakers >when plugged into certain outlets - irrespective of whether it's via >a surge protector (probably not surprising there) or of what other >loads might be sharing the same wiring to that outlet. > >It works fine in other outlets though, which seems like a strange >problem - but I have no idea how US houses are wired (and the wiring >in this place is ancient anyway!) > >Be nice to get it sorted out as the cable box currently requires a >cable trailing across the lounge from an outlet in another room! > >cheers > >Jules In a modern grounded system, green goes to the grounding pin, white is common or neutral and goes to the longest of the parallel slots, and black is hot, and goes to the short parallel slot. Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor, Ontario N8Y 3J8 Camcorder Kindergarten, www.chasfoxvideo.com From fryers at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 10:02:29 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 16:02:29 +0100 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20051007103752.01c183d0@pop.cogeco.ca> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <6.2.3.4.0.20051007103752.01c183d0@pop.cogeco.ca> Message-ID: All, On 10/7/05, Charles E. Fox wrote: > At 10:26 AM 10/7/2005, you wrote: > > >One for the US members... any idea of a good usenet resource for > >questions relating to US wiring / electrics? (I'm thinking an > >equivalent to uk.d-i-y) I am still trying to get my head around the UK wiring standards - although optimising house wiring is, or very soon will be illegal in the UK for all but licenced electricians. > In a modern grounded system, green goes to the grounding > pin, white is common or neutral and goes to the longest of the > parallel slots, and black is hot, and goes to the short parallel slot. What is the earthing arrangement? Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Oct 7 10:10:10 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:10:10 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info Message-ID: <18983212.1128697810919.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> 3 or so meter grounding rod driven into the earth and then attached with a single run of wire to the meter box and the service panel. Current standards usually require 12 gauge copper wire with three wires in it for 110v runs. White, black, and a ground wire (usually 14 gauge). For the 110v runs, each has the ground wire and white wire connected to the panel's ground. Black goes to the breaker and becomes the hot lead to circuits. The ground wire should be connected to any metal boxes and should be attached to the ground terminals on switches and outlets. hope that covers what you were asking. What is the earthing arrangement? Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From vrs at msn.com Fri Oct 7 10:18:42 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 08:18:42 -0700 Subject: Original PDP-8 spares References: Message-ID: > About 10 years ago I obtained what seems to be the entire set of > plug-boards, the two wire-wrapped backplanes as well as the complete core > memory module from an original PDP-8. I also have the front panel, but I > might want to keep that in my collection. Cool! > I'm thinking of selling these components (possibly on eBay) to somebody who > might want to keep them as spares, or who is reviving one of these monsters. > The catch is that it is in South Africa, though I don't expect the postage > on the cards themselves to be prohibitive. The backplanes might be a quite > a bit more (heavy & large) I've recently sent some boards to dmrazzler, who is trying to ressurect a straight-8. I'm pretty sure he'd be interested (though you probably wouldn't get rich there, if cash is an objective). > Do you guys (and gals) expect it to be worth my while listing it ? Maybe at > the marketplace ? I think it would get some bids :-). The really high-ticket item would probably be the front panel and whatever of the original cosmetics you have, but you said you wanted to keep those. Still, I'd think a reasonably complete set of guts would attract some interest. Are you trying to preserve the thing, or to turn it into cash? That might determine where you try to sell it. I think the VCM is the place to go if you want to be sure that someone who cares will buy it. EBay has a larger audience (hence more $$), but not all of the buyers there are "serious" collectors, who would try to restore (or at least preserve) it. Vince From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 10:36:14 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:36:14 -0400 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 10/7/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > We've got a cable decoder box here that trips out the house breakers > when plugged into certain outlets - irrespective of whether it's via a > surge protector (probably not surprising there) or of what other loads > might be sharing the same wiring to that outlet. > > It works fine in other outlets though, which seems like a strange > problem - but I have no idea how US houses are wired (and the wiring in > this place is ancient anyway!) Check to see that you don't have neutral and hot swapped in certain outlets. One painless way is an outlet tester sold at places like Radio Shack and Lowe's. You can test with a voltmeter, if that's easier, but the pre-fab tester lights up properly when plugged into a properly-wired outlet, eliminating confusion. In older houses, I've seen miswired outlets lots of times. My house had two when I moved in , for example. Most appliances, especially lighting fixtures, don't care. Best to identify and correct, anyway. -ethan From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 7 10:46:29 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:46:29 -0400 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <200510070622.j976MQ26029798@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200510071546.j97FkRYG024204@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Let's simplify this ... A LOT. The most common disk format (BY FAR) for CP/M was 8-inch, single sided, single density. If they are in that format, then virtually any CP/M system with 8" floppy disk drives can read the disks (assuming that they are still readable). It is very unlikely to matter what disk controller was used to write the disks, it is very unlikely to matter what system originally created the disks. The 8" SSSD format is "gold standard interchangeable" among virtually all CP/M systems with 8" floppy drives. And it was, BY FAR, the most common CP/M disk format. Finding a working CP/M system with 8" drives should not be difficult. I have 3 of them here (I'm in Ohio, USA). There are still many thousands of running CP/M systems around. A slightly greater problem is getting the files moved from the 8" CP/M floppy disks to another [more useful] form of media. What you really want is a system with both 8" and 5.25" floppy drives, and a PC with 5.25" floppy drives. Such a system would allow you to move the files from 8" CP/M to DOS/Windows, which is probably the objective. My experience in reading 8" diskettes written in the 1970's has been excellent. I have hundreds, probably a couple of thousand such disks, and I have only had a single-digit number of diskettes that I have been unable to read out of all of those. Others who have actually had experience with large numbers of 8" disks also report very high success rates with disks that have been stored in climate-controlled environments. Now if the disks were outside in a garage for 20 years, that would be another matter of course, but for well stored disks, readability is not usually an issue. It is possible that the disks are not SSSD (single sided, single density), and if that is the case, then the problem becomes far more complex. Once you get away from 8" SSSD, there is no standard disk format, rather there are hundreds of different formats specific to each implementation of CP/M. This could [greatly] complicate recovery, however, under no circumstances would this make recovery impossible. CP/M is highly adaptable, and with some effort (programming) it would be possible, first, to determine the format, and, second, to adapt any CP/M system to be able to read any disks for which it had the correct type of drive. In general, unless the format is ***VERY*** non-standard, it doesn't matter what the controller was that wrote the disks. Most systems used Western Digital 17xx controllers, some did use NEC 765 controllers (which existed for a couple of years before the PC came out), and a few used discreet logic controllers. But for the most part (and in particular between the WD and NEC based controllers), disks were interchangeable with regard to being READ. A few people mentioned hard-sectored media. While hard sector 8" disk systems did exist (I have two of them here), it was very, very rare for hard-sectored media or systems to run CP/M. Invariably, systems using hard-sector 8" media ran proprietary operating systems. You can assume that any 8" CP/M system was soft-sectored and be correct at about the 99% level. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 7 11:13:47 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 09:13:47 -0700 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> On 10/7/2005 at 11:36 AM Ethan Dicks wrote: >In older houses, I've seen miswired outlets lots of times. My house >had two when I moved in , for example. Most appliances, especially >lighting fixtures, don't care. Best to identify and correct, anyway. When I moved my home, I had a Toshiba microwave oven that refused to operate (would not power up) when installed at the same outlet that had previously powered a Whirlpool unit. Thinking it might be the outlet, I tried the oven on an extension cord plugged into a different outlet--worked just fine. I plugged a worklight into the original outlet--no problem. It dawned on my that there might be a fault in the outlet, but more of a mechanical thing where contact wasn't being made with the Toshiba plug. After opening up the outlet box, I noted that it had been installed with the wires (black/white) wires swapped. On a hunch, I reversed them and reassembled the outlet. The Toshiba worked fine. I went around the house and discovered at least 8 more outlets with the same problem. The house wasn't at all old and was wired by a licensed contractor and subsequently inspected. Regardless of how your outlet is (or isn't) labeled, it's the side of the outlet that accepts the wider blade that is grounded, along with the long grounding prong. If I were setting up a conversion from ungrounded 220v to US 120v, I woiuld make my receptacle a GFCI model (ground fault circuit interrupter) model for safety... --- If I remember what my friend from Aylesbury told me aobut UK wiring, it isn't uncommon for a 50 amp 220 volt pair to be run to all outlets; the fuse being in the plug of the appliance. He also mentioned that, although in theory, each appliance is to be fused according to its current use, the common practice is to install a 13 amp fuse in everything as a replacement. On older hormes, it isn't uncommon to find that one side of the line has been grounded through a buried cold-water pipe. However, as mentioned earlier, code requires a separate buried grounding rod. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 7 11:24:59 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 09:24:59 -0700 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <200510071546.j97FkRYG024204@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200510071546.j97FkRYG024204@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <200510070924590108.4823A777@10.0.0.252> On 10/7/2005 at 11:46 AM Barry Watzman wrote: >Let's simplify this ... A LOT. > >The most common disk format (BY FAR) for CP/M was 8-inch, single sided, >single density. That might very well be true (my own collection tends to have many fewer of this format, but that's because I collect unique samples of formats, not really caring what's actually on them). However, in my own experience, I've found that it's not at all infequent for someone to assume that just because something's on 8" media (or 5.25" and not DOS) must be CP/M. This is not the case more often than you'd think. There was quite a proliferation of proprietary operating systems back in the 8" days. This is not to impugn the statements of the original poster, but rather to point out that his client SAYS it's CP/M. But we don't know for certain, do we? For me, that's where the fun begins! Cheers, Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 7 11:29:36 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 09:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted Message-ID: <200510071629.JAA10104@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Hans Franke" ---snip--- > First thing would be >to connect a logic analyzer to see if the CPU is still running >a programm in ROM or not. Hi What is it with logic analyzers. Why not just an oscilloscope. In most cases, one can be farther along with an 'oscope in finding what is wrong by the time one can get an analyzer connected and setup. I've only had one time that I ever needed an analyzer and even that time, it didn't work well because of the complexity of the problem ( design not failure ). I'll admit that I've often thought of making one of those address compare circuits to trigger the 'scope but by the time I'd get serious, I'd found the problem. Am I alone here or does everyone else think that an analyzer is the ultimate tool? Dwight From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 7 11:46:06 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 12:46:06 -0400 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: <0IO000EUL18KT2Z0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data > From: "Barry Watzman" > Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 11:46:29 -0400 > To: > > >Let's simplify this ... A LOT. > >The most common disk format (BY FAR) for CP/M was 8-inch, single sided, >single density. Already stated but it's very important to repeat it. >If they are in that format, then virtually any CP/M system with 8" floppy >disk drives can read the disks (assuming that they are still readable). It >is very unlikely to matter what disk controller was used to write the disks, >it is very unlikely to matter what system originally created the disks. The >8" SSSD format is "gold standard interchangeable" among virtually all CP/M >systems with 8" floppy drives. And it was, BY FAR, the most common CP/M >disk format. Most 8" softsector systems that did "other formats" also maintained the 8" SSSD standard. >Finding a working CP/M system with 8" drives should not be difficult. I >have 3 of them here (I'm in Ohio, USA). There are still many thousands of >running CP/M systems around. A slightly greater problem is getting the >files moved from the 8" CP/M floppy disks to another [more useful] form of >media. What you really want is a system with both 8" and 5.25" floppy >drives, and a PC with 5.25" floppy drives. Such a system would allow you to >move the files from 8" CP/M to DOS/Windows, which is probably the objective. The latter, moving the files is trivial. Procomm on a PC and any of the modem programs on the CP/M system is easily done. Some systems like mine runs 3.5" floppies as well plus a program called dos to write 720k format DOS floppies which is very handy! Other do it by writing 8" to 360k 5.25 and relying on a pc with same disk and using one of many programs to read the disk at the file level. >My experience in reading 8" diskettes written in the 1970's has been >excellent. I have hundreds, probably a couple of thousand such disks, and I >have only had a single digit number of diskettes that I have been unable to >read out of all of those. Others who have actually had experience with >large numbers of 8" disks also report very high success rates with disks >that have been stored in climate-controlled environments. Now if the disks >were outside in a garage for 20 years, that would be another matter of >course, but for well stored disks, readability is not usually an issue. My experience is mixed, I generally assume readable but occasional bad media show up. I've had more likely due to poor storage they were subjected to beforehand. A side note is that most of the bad media was mid 80s 3M manufacture [remember the "blackwatch" audio tape that binder crapped after a few years] or poorly stored. My PDP-11 (RX01) disks are typically 35 years old for some masters. Yet some of the early 80s cheap (third party) 8" media has failed. Maxell Dysan and BASF were always the best and I still have an unopened box or two. >It is possible that the disks are not SSSD (single sided, single density), >and if that is the case, then the problem becomes far more complex. Once >you get away from 8" SSSD, there is no standard disk format, rather there >are hundreds of different formats specific to each implementation of CP/M. >This could [greatly] complicate recovery, however, under no circumstances >would this make recovery impossible. CP/M is highly adaptable, and with >some effort (programming) it would be possible, first, to determine the >format, and, second, to adapt any CP/M system to be able to read any disks >for which it had the correct type of drive. The only other format that shows up is Intel MDS using the double density M2FM(oddball), I must have a dozen of these that I can't read. I point this out as some games developers used MDS as their development platform and debug platoform using the MDS ICE. Usually thier budget was smaller and they used generic systems. >In general, unless the format is ***VERY*** non-standard, it doesn't matter >what the controller was that wrote the disks. Most systems used Western >Digital 17xx controllers, some did use NEC 765 controllers (which existed >for a couple of years before the PC came out), and a few used discreet logic >controllers. But for the most part (and in particular between the WD and >NEC based controllers), disks were interchangeable with regard to being >READ. FYI: the NEC 765 was sampled in early 1980, production 1980 4thQ, IBM PC was Q3 1981. It wasnt a few years. The 1771/1793 was the defacto CP/M FDC through 1981 and dominent after that with only new designs after '81 picking up on the 765 (compupro and some of the system on a single board vendors). In any case for 8" SSSD it was not an issue as both NEC and WD controllers were fully capable and compatable. >A few people mentioned hard-sectored media. While hard sector 8" disk >systems did exist (I have two of them here), it was very, very rare for >hard-sectored media or systems to run CP/M. Invariably, systems using >hard-sector 8" media ran proprietary operating systems. You can assume that >any 8" CP/M system was soft-sectored and be correct at about the 99% level. Hard sector 8" system were rare, unusual and many of the host systems were difficult to program (new bios) or unsuitable for CP/M operation. Another watch for thing. I have media (Maxel 2Dxd, two sided) that was usually used for two sided and the sector hole is different and some older drives do not see index as a result. This occured to me using an old SA800 and the media was actually used and formatted as as single sided SD on a Compupro Disk1 using QUME drives. It was a simple matter of using an 8" drive that could sense index in either location (sa860). I mention this as users and integrators of CP/M systems often did an occasional strange thing and if a disk doesnt read it can be an innocent error thats easily fixed. As been repeated else where and by myself the 5.25" world was not as orderly. Allison From a.macdonald+classiccmp at slitesys.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 7 11:50:53 2005 From: a.macdonald+classiccmp at slitesys.demon.co.uk (Alistair MacDonald) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 17:50:53 +0100 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If I remember what my friend from Aylesbury told me aobut UK wiring, it > isn't uncommon for a 50 amp 220 volt pair to be run to all outlets; Your friend would appear to live in a different UK to me. It is however common practice for the outlets to be in a ring with a 30A fuse in the fusebox. > the fuse being in the plug of the appliance. He also mentioned that, > although in theory, each appliance is to be fused according to its > current use, the common practice is to install a 13 amp fuse in > everything as a replacement. Most people don't understand the difference and it is more annoying to get the correct fuse. It isn't helped by the manufacturers supplying items with the wrong fuse. Those of us who perform Portable Appliance Tests on things get very annoyed at having to replace the fuses on the first test. Anyone want any 13A fuses? 8-) Alistair -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 7 11:55:01 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 12:55:01 -0400 Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted Message-ID: <0IO000IGN1NEIGG0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 09:29:36 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>From: "Hans Franke" >---snip--- >> First thing would be >>to connect a logic analyzer to see if the CPU is still running >>a programm in ROM or not. > >Hi > What is it with logic analyzers. Why not just an >oscilloscope. In most cases, one can be farther along >with an 'oscope in finding what is wrong by the >time one can get an analyzer connected and setup. >I've only had one time that I ever needed an analyzer >and even that time, it didn't work well because >of the complexity of the problem ( design not failure ). > I'll admit that I've often thought of making one >of those address compare circuits to trigger the 'scope >but by the time I'd get serious, I'd found the problem. > Am I alone here or does everyone else think that an >analyzer is the ultimate tool? >Dwight Hi, ;) Yes, the analyser is the ultimate tool, biggest hammer and all that. With all that in the case of 'shooting a KIM-1 the first tool I'd grab is the trusty VOM to check power and then the logic probe (you know those things that run off 5V and have three leds for logic levels aka logic dart) and proble around for the simple presence of pulses. If warrented then the O'scope. Last (by a lot) is the big gun logic machine as that also takes the longest time to drag out and set up. The other three live on the bench. One of the things to watch on the KIM-1 is a lot of the signals come to the edge unbuffered. Can you say ESD? I've also lost as much TTL as MOS to ESD as most TTL lives near accessable connections (edge connectors, Keypads and the like). Typical TTL ESD failures are "stuck input syndrome" and threshold shifts. Allison From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Oct 7 11:56:50 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 09:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <200510071629.JAA10104@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200510071629.JAA10104@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> From: "Hans Franke" > ---snip--- >> First thing would be >> to connect a logic analyzer to see if the CPU is still running >> a programm in ROM or not. > > Hi > What is it with logic analyzers. Why not just an > oscilloscope. In most cases, one can be farther along > with an 'oscope in finding what is wrong by the > time one can get an analyzer connected and setup. > I've only had one time that I ever needed an analyzer > and even that time, it didn't work well because > of the complexity of the problem ( design not failure ). > I'll admit that I've often thought of making one > of those address compare circuits to trigger the 'scope > but by the time I'd get serious, I'd found the problem. > Am I alone here or does everyone else think that an > analyzer is the ultimate tool? > Dwight > > I have one but rarely use it: 1. With modern circuits it is nearly impossible to connect. 2. Usually by spending a little more time thinking and doing simple measurements (address and data toggling, clocks running, reset doing the right thing) I can avoid using the logic analyser at all. 3. for repairing older circuits, often the problem will maniifest itself as a marginal level, the LA may miss this completely or give hard to interpret results. 4. Just having a simple oscillator to toggle the reset line lets me trace the first few CPU instructions with nothing more than a scope (and a piece of paper). 5. I do have some pre-configured ROM socket --> logic analyser adapters so I can trace startup code when bring up a new board. Basically I only use it as a last resort when nothing else works... Peter Wallace From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 7 12:10:48 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 11:10:48 -0600 Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: <200510062320320890.45FA471A@10.0.0.252> References: <20051006231654.31f83c66.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510062320320890.45FA471A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4346AC18.6090304@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >I ordered the MPX-16 serial card board from Circuit Cellar because it was cheaper than the IBM part at the time (it seems incredible that any computer intended for the home market would have serial I/O as an option, doesn't it?). > >I couldn't get it to work in a standard PC, so I figured that there was probably something very different about the MPX's bus timing or signals and I lost interest in the project. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > I consider this to be the Circuit Cellar segment that marked the end of BYTE as a non PC hardware/software magizine. It is too bad BYTE never had more stuff on the 6800 end of the market. Ben alias woodelf From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 7 12:13:19 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 13:13:19 -0400 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info Message-ID: <0IO000KDN2HWJ3O0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info > From: Alistair MacDonald > Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 17:50:53 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> If I remember what my friend from Aylesbury told me aobut UK wiring, it >> isn't uncommon for a 50 amp 220 volt pair to be run to all outlets; > >Your friend would appear to live in a different UK to me. It is however >common practice for the outlets to be in a ring with a 30A fuse in the >fusebox. Well UK and USA differ on wiring and voltage. We often have large numbers of outlets (parallel connection) per fuse/breaker. For example this house has 9 rooms and three breakers control the bulk of the outlets (1957 construction). And added outlets since then are on new breakers. This is typical of homes more than 15-20 yers old and varies a lot. the other is MY understanding is UK is 230V where we use 115/120. Further the mains are Line/Line in UK and here they are line/neutral. The differnce is under nominal conditions one side of the outlet is at earth potential (or very close). We add the third prong as earth or safety ground. >> the fuse being in the plug of the appliance. He also mentioned that, >> although in theory, each appliance is to be fused according to its >> current use, the common practice is to install a 13 amp fuse in >> everything as a replacement. > >Most people don't understand the difference and it is more annoying to >get the correct fuse. It isn't helped by the manufacturers supplying >items with the wrong fuse. Those of us who perform Portable Appliance >Tests on things get very annoyed at having to replace the fuses on the >first test. Anyone want any 13A fuses? 8-) While a good practice the design differnce here is internal fuse (or on equipment) for equipment fault and circuit (breaker box) fuse to protects building wiring from fault or overload. fire people often report that electrical fires resulting from circuit overload (impropper fusing or use of under weight extension cords.) more often than an appliance causing fires. From what you say it's done the same there only location of the equipment fuse is at the connector. Each has it's merits. I may add here we also have fixed appliences that use 230V line/line for power too allow lower line currents that come with higher voltages. Devices like that are electric ranges, Ovens, clothes dryers and generally any non portable appliance that would draw 20A or more at 115/120V. US household generally have power delivers from the pole as 230V Line/Line aand 115/120V line/neutral. A code specifies that neutral will be bonded to earth (via pipe or ground rod) at only one point. From that point protective ground and neutral will be distributed to all loads either as star or bus. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 7 12:26:44 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 10:26:44 -0700 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200510071026440939.485C3623@10.0.0.252> On 10/7/2005 at 5:50 PM Alistair MacDonald wrote: >>Your friend would appear to live in a different UK to me. It is however >common practice for the outlets to be in a ring with a 30A fuse in the >fusebox. No my memory lives in a different reality from the current one! :) Still, it's not too bad for recalling a casual conversaton I had some 12 or 13 years ago. What is the common residential distribution in the UK? In the US, most residences seem to be wired with 230v 200 amp service, although some of the newer houses in my neighborhood are getting 400 amp panels. The US 230 volt distribution takes the form of a center tapped secondary on the distribution transformer, with the center tap being grounded. Distribution panels alternate which side of the secondary is used, so a 230v circuit requires two breaker positions, each breaker connecting with a different side of the distribution transformer secondary winding. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 12:57:14 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 13:57:14 -0400 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: <200510071026440939.485C3623@10.0.0.252> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <200510071026440939.485C3623@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 10/7/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What is the common residential distribution in the UK? In the US, most residences seem to be wired with 230v 200 amp service, although some of the newer houses in my neighborhood are getting 400 amp panels. In my area (older part of Columbus, OH, with houses built between about 1910 and 1935), we have lots of the old 60 Amp drops with 3 parallel light gauge wires, and lots of the modern 200 Amp 2-insulated-plus-one-uninsulated bundles. I haven't seen any 400 Amp drops, but I suppose I wouldn't be able to distinguish them from 200 Amp drops by sight. -ethan From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Oct 7 13:25:37 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:25:37 -0700 Subject: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <200510062343.QAA09330@floodgap.com> References: <10510070009.ZM14109@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200510062343.QAA09330@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At http://www.6502.org/oldmicro/buildkim/buildkim.htm you can find schematics of the original KIM and one that can be built with a 6532. There might be enough info there in order to replace the 6530 with a 6532+EPROM daughter board. On 10/6/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Well, one of the supposedly-working exhibits is my KIM-1, but it died > > this afternoon. I can't get it to do more than occasionally display a > > single zero, on the leftmost 7-segment display. A cursory look with a > > logic probe (and no docs to hand) shows the clock is running and at > > least a few address lines are too. I bet it's a memory fault. > > > > What are the common faults? I'm hoping it's one of the 2102 RAMs, > > because I stand a chance of having a suitable replacement. However, I > > fear it's more likely a 6530, and I assume they're unobtanium. Has > > anyone ever come up with a kludge to effectively use a 6532 (and are > > they any easier to find?) with an EPROM? Or anything else? > > 6532s are definitely not pin-compatible, and I've never seen any means of > converting them or integrating an EPROM for the mask ROM component. My own > KIM-1 is a little flaky and after awhile will do something similar, but > usually only after it's been running for some time or if there was a power > fault (and RS usually sets it right). > > You could try replacing the RAM, but I don't think that explains your > symptoms. > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my personalities each need therapy." > ----- > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Oct 7 13:59:32 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 14:59:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200510071909.PAA09339@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > We've got a cable decoder box here that trips out the house breakers > when plugged into certain outlets - irrespective of whether it's via > a surge protector (probably not surprising there) or of what other > loads might be sharing the same wiring to that outlet. Two-prong plug or three? If two, polarized (blades different widths) or not (identical blades)? Does it trip the breaker when it's plugged in or when it's turned on (or does it not have a power switch)? Does the breaker trip instantly, after a few seconds, after a minute or so, or what? Does it do this even if it's not connected to anything else (ie, with the cable, feed to the TV/VCR, etc disconnected)? If you can reverse the plug (ie, if it's a non-polarized two-pin plug), does it still trip if you do so? I'm suspecting a power fault (a connection between a mains rail and something else), with either (a) a non-polarized plug and tripping depending on which way it happens to be plugged in rather than which outlet or (b) a polarized or three-prong plug with the leak between neutral and ground (ground via something like the cable sheath conductor, or, of a three-pin plug, possibly via the ground pin) and some outlets wired with neutral and hot swapped. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Fri Oct 7 14:47:24 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 12:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <200510071629.JAA10104@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20051007194724.78907.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >From: "Hans Franke" > ---snip--- > > First thing would be > >to connect a logic analyzer to see if the CPU is > still running > >a programm in ROM or not. > > Hi > What is it with logic analyzers. Why not just an > oscilloscope. In most cases, one can be farther > along > with an 'oscope in finding what is wrong by the > time one can get an analyzer connected and setup. > I've only had one time that I ever needed an > analyzer > and even that time, it didn't work well because > of the complexity of the problem ( design not > failure ). > I'll admit that I've often thought of making one > of those address compare circuits to trigger the > 'scope > but by the time I'd get serious, I'd found the > problem. > Am I alone here or does everyone else think that an > analyzer is the ultimate tool? > Dwight > > > Well I do, but it sounds like everyone is complaining about the LA setup time (bringing it out of storage). Mine is a permanent fixture on my bench, with loads of various sized test clips (and a full set of dip test clips), in 30 seconds I can have it powered up and tracing on 8 timing signals, little longer if I want 16 bits of address/data and a clock, can't remember the last time I used a scope. But I suppose it like comparing a table saw with a band saw, what they can do overlaps, and one does certain things much better then the other, but you use what you are more familar with and have available and solve the problem whatever its limitations. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From news at computercollector.com Fri Oct 7 15:01:46 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 16:01:46 -0400 Subject: 2002 issues of IEEE Annals? Message-ID: <004301c5cb79$f4e5f640$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Hi, does anyone have the April/June and July/September issues (Vol. 24, nos. 2 and 3) of the IEEE Annals of the History of Computing? I need these for a research project. Thanks! - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 7 15:11:49 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 21:11:49 +0100 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4346D685.6010303@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/7/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > >>We've got a cable decoder box here that trips out the house breakers >>when plugged into certain outlets - irrespective of whether it's via a >>surge protector (probably not surprising there) or of what other loads >>might be sharing the same wiring to that outlet. >> >>It works fine in other outlets though, which seems like a strange >>problem - but I have no idea how US houses are wired (and the wiring in >>this place is ancient anyway!) > > > Check to see that you don't have neutral and hot swapped in certain > outlets. Hmm, just had a quick look and no problems with the outlets which have been causing problems - unless the whole lot's miswired where it exits the breaker(s). I'll check that. And yep, it's all the old 60A three-cable stuff. The plot thickens somewhat after getting some more info out of the SO and doing some poking around. The problem only happens on certain outlets when the TV and cable box share any of the problem outlets, and the aerial's hooked up between the TV and cable box. (so I was incorrect about it *just* needing the cable box plugged in to cause problems) So it seems to be something to do with the TV and cable box having a connection via the aerial lead that's causing trouble, but only when they're using certain power outlets. The lead between power outlet and cable box is a moulded thing and can only go one way round at either end (the socket's PCB mounted at the cable box, so it can't be mis-wired internally either). The TV has an integral lead, although I tried swapping wires at the plug without any luck (it refuses to startup with them swapped) So it'd seem like some other issue - possibly a fault within the cable decoder of some description, or maybe something else which is sharing the cable feed (there's a cable modem on there too, and also another TV without any decoder in one of the bedrooms) Anyway, still looking for suggestions of places to ask all of this so it's not on the list! cheers Jules From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 7 09:29:40 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 07:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MPX-16 census Message-ID: <20051007142940.62272.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> dont have one, but want one. I hope youll make disk images available. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Does anybody else on the list have an MPX-16 system? I recently > acquired one from a list member and am wondering how many of these > systems still exist. I have a large (relatively) collection of > diskettes with mine. > > The MPX-16, for those not familiar with it, was published as a project > in Steve Ciarcia's 'Circuit Cellar' column in Byte magazine. It was a > three part 'construction' article and the machine was sold by MicroMint > for a time. What I've heard is that about 500 machines in total were > produced. > > It's an early 'IBM Compatible' in that they designed it to be similar to > the PC, but only to a certain degree. It uses a serial console rather > than keyboard/display adapter, and it runs CP/M-86 and supposedly MS-DOS > though I don't have DOS diskettes for mine. It has ISA slots and a > similar architecture to the IBM-PC, coming out of that early era before > there were PC clones from the likes of Compaq. > > I'm curious of how many other MPX-16 systems have survived to today. > There isn't a lot about it online. I can share what information I have, > as I have manuals and docs with my system. I'm interested in hearing > from other people with this machine. > > Scott __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From bv at norbionics.com Fri Oct 7 13:30:44 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 20:30:44 +0200 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <200510071026440939.485C3623@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 19:57:14 +0200, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/7/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> What is the common residential distribution in the UK? In the US, most >> residences seem to be wired with 230v 200 amp service, although some of >> the newer houses in my neighborhood are getting 400 amp panels. > > In my area (older part of Columbus, OH, with houses built between > about 1910 and 1935), we have lots of the old 60 Amp drops with 3 > parallel light gauge wires, and lots of the modern 200 Amp > 2-insulated-plus-one-uninsulated bundles. I haven't seen any 400 Amp > drops, but I suppose I wouldn't be able to distinguish them from 200 > Amp drops by sight. 200A @ 110V makes for 22kVA per phase - what do you need all that power for? I use electrical heating (in southern Norwegian climate), and rarely need more than 7kW. Looks like it will be cost effective again this winter, so I have not filled the oil tank... One special feature of Norwegian wiring is that we do not have any concept of "neutral", since the distribution transformers are delta-connected. Both phase wires are supposed to have the same potential to earth. This makes the shock hazard from 230V not much higher than from 110V, since most shocks are between a wire and earth. On the other hand, it does not always work well with equipment built on the premise that there is a neutral wire. Anybody else living in a place that does not use Y-connected transformers? -- -bv From RMeenaks at olf.com Fri Oct 7 15:32:53 2005 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 16:32:53 -0400 Subject: 2002 issues of IEEE Annals? Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557830E5F@cpexchange.olf.com> I have the digital subscription for these via my school. I'll see if I can get them for you... Cheers, Ram From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Oct 7 15:40:13 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 22:40:13 +0200 Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <200510071629.JAA10104@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <4346F94D.8888.FED7DB52@localhost> Am 7 Oct 2005 9:29 meinte Dwight K. Elvey: > >From: "Hans Franke" > ---snip--- > > First thing would be > >to connect a logic analyzer to see if the CPU is still running > >a programm in ROM or not. > Hi > What is it with logic analyzers. Why not just an > oscilloscope. In most cases, one can be farther along > with an 'oscope in finding what is wrong by the > time one can get an analyzer connected and setup. > I've only had one time that I ever needed an analyzer > and even that time, it didn't work well because > of the complexity of the problem ( design not failure ). > I'll admit that I've often thought of making one > of those address compare circuits to trigger the 'scope > but by the time I'd get serious, I'd found the problem. > Am I alone here or does everyone else think that an > analyzer is the ultimate tool? It is after all a nice big hammer. Why waste time with other measures. Shure, when I originaly had my first KIM (does this sound like a book title or what?), all I had was a logic probe. I had an oscar at work, but somehow my superiors didn't feel comfortable with my intention to take it home. And yes, somehow I solved all my problems. And again yes, one could do it again like back then, but why? You already pointed out one of the real traps in ding it with just a hairpin and your brain: it takes time. Quite a lot of time. Now for the KIM, I'd just add an edge connector and clip on the probes, key in the important signal names, and at maximum 5 Minutes later I can go ahead and interpret what I'm seeing. construct some trap conditions and usualy the problem gets visible quite fast. Of course, as with every strategy to find a problem, I need to have an idea what I'm doing and what I'm looking for. I mean, checking simple things like power, certain outputs and clock signals are things to be done before. Again, without an idea what to do, a bigger hammer is only good for more pain when he hits your thump :) And there ar bigger hammers available - the next step after a LA are some ICE box, which in case of a dead KIM with an already socketed CPU might be my other coice, since it's standing right on the shelf ... and a programm run listing plus logic signal diagrams is a nice thing. In both cases, the more in information you get, the more you need to know what you're doing ... did I mention this already? To me it's the most important part. You need to know the basics, you need to know what your're doing. Otherwise all reading are senseless. A great tool doesn't make a good mechanic, and a good mechanic can still do a good job with poor tools. Still if you combine knowledge with good tools, you get a good result in less time with less effort. Comeing back to logic analyzers, I compare them on my own scale to modern programming environments. I mean, 25 years ago, I did read my flag lists (already on screen) and worked thru as many lines as possible before restarting the assembler. Today I just go for the first few lines, and when I see that there are several flags connected to the same mistake, I don't scan any further for other errors, but restart the assembler and look into the new flag list (if there's one). The new pass is shorter than the time I need to reload the output files. Now, for run time errors, I did sit down (in the old time) and tried to figure out what happens. Today, I do the same, but if I can't find a result fast, I add some debug output and see whats happening inside... Isn't that the same as with a logic analyzer? Interactive development. Not as ivory tower like as if you do everythin in your head, but usualy faster. Oh, and did I mention that you need to know what you're doing? I've seen more than enough 'programmers' adding debug lines and debug lines and searching for hours, just because they didn't have a glimps what the task was about? Always the same. Now, since I already looked onto as a whimp by most on this list, I can even top this: I do hardware development the same way. If some CPLD doesn'T work as I want, I just add debug output and attatch a logic analyzer:) Have a nice weekend Hans -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Oct 7 15:40:12 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 22:40:12 +0200 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: <0IO000KDN2HWJ3O0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4346F94C.28949.FED7DA67@localhost> Am 7 Oct 2005 13:13 meinte Allison: > >> If I remember what my friend from Aylesbury told me aobut UK wiring, it > >> isn't uncommon for a 50 amp 220 volt pair to be run to all outlets; > >Your friend would appear to live in a different UK to me. It is however > >common practice for the outlets to be in a ring with a 30A fuse in the > >fusebox. > the other is MY understanding is UK is 230V where we use 115/120. Further > the mains are Line/Line in UK and here they are line/neutral. The differnce > is under nominal conditions one side of the outlet is at earth potential > (or very close). We add the third prong as earth or safety ground. Well, not realy. While it is true that the main going into a house over here is 400V (380) line/line, within a house all regular outlets are line/ground with 230V. For certain applications 400V (5 wire) is routed. Usualy only for cooking and heating. Now, while the UK follows a scheme like inth US with a third prong and only one way to plug, most parts of Europe follow the German system where the safty ground is on both 'sides', so a cable can be pluges either way. After all it's alternating current :). So from a design viewpoint you considere both wires hot. That way it doesn't matter for a device. The one-way-plug feature was relevant before protective ground became standard and before it was routed thruout the house (instead of beeing tied to ground at each outlet). Nowadays, where a protective ground and a residual current breaker are standard (I assume) in every country, the difference is rather theoretical. Now, regarding the main power, I got no idea about Britain, but I assume its similar to mainland Europe. The basic connection offered in German cities is about 20-40 kW per house/unit (400V 30-60A per line). Usualy you get anything up to 150 kW without problems. Connections above 200 kW are usualy only available on request and may not available in some old inner city areas. We had to pay some real money to upgrade the Cray-Cyber main when the machine park did grow:) hans -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 7 16:44:11 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 16:44:11 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: <4346D685.6010303@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051007164411.0edf8fc8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:11 PM 10/7/05 +0100, you wrote: >Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 10/7/05, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>>We've got a cable decoder box here that trips out the house breakers >>>when plugged into certain outlets - irrespective of whether it's via a >>>surge protector (probably not surprising there) or of what other loads >>>might be sharing the same wiring to that outlet. >>> >>>It works fine in other outlets though, which seems like a strange >>>problem - but I have no idea how US houses are wired (and the wiring in >>>this place is ancient anyway!) >> >> >> Check to see that you don't have neutral and hot swapped in certain >> outlets. > >Hmm, just had a quick look and no problems with the outlets which have >been causing problems - unless the whole lot's miswired where it exits >the breaker(s). I'll check that. And yep, it's all the old 60A >three-cable stuff. > >The plot thickens somewhat after getting some more info out of the SO >and doing some poking around. > >The problem only happens on certain outlets when the TV and cable box >share any of the problem outlets, and the aerial's hooked up between the >TV and cable box. (so I was incorrect about it *just* needing the cable >box plugged in to cause problems) I once worked in a hospital and repairing the TVs was one of my responsibilities. One day we had a call for a TV that won't work. When we arrived it was working fine. A little latter we had a call for the same thing from the adjacent room. This time we checked closer. We found that the TVs were back to back on a common wall and both TVs used the same electrical circuit. Somewhere there was an open circuit between the AC outlets such that the two TVs were in series so neither one would work unless both were turned on! That's why the patients TVs were dead, one patient would turn their set off and it would turn both of them off. The surprising thing was that both sets worked normal when in series. Very surprising since each one was running off 1/2 the normal voltage! It sounds like you might have something similar going on especially since it seems to involve having the ariel and/or cable box hooked up. Joe > >So it seems to be something to do with the TV and cable box having a >connection via the aerial lead that's causing trouble, but only when >they're using certain power outlets. The lead between power outlet and >cable box is a moulded thing and can only go one way round at either end >(the socket's PCB mounted at the cable box, so it can't be mis-wired >internally either). The TV has an integral lead, although I tried >swapping wires at the plug without any luck (it refuses to startup with >them swapped) > >So it'd seem like some other issue - possibly a fault within the cable >decoder of some description, or maybe something else which is sharing >the cable feed (there's a cable modem on there too, and also another TV >without any decoder in one of the bedrooms) > >Anyway, still looking for suggestions of places to ask all of this so >it's not on the list! > >cheers > >Jules > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 7 16:18:04 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 14:18:04 -0700 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <200510071026440939.485C3623@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510071418040725.492FFF83@10.0.0.252> On 10/7/2005 at 8:30 PM Bj?rn wrote: >200A @ 110V makes for 22kVA per phase - what do you need all that power >for? Line voltage in the US is now closer to 120 v phase-to-ground; my own house measures about 124 v. most of the time So we're really talking about 24kVA per phase. Why all the power? Well, first of all, I live in the Pacific Northwest, where most of the power comes from hydro sources and prices are fairly low. I'm also situated outside of city limits and served by a NRECA rural electrical co-operative, so there's some government assistance with the infrastructure costs. Cooking, heating and air-conditioning (via heat pump) is all electrical here. I refuse to bring propane (from an outside tank) into my house because of safety concerns. During the winter, our heating is supplemented with a wood-burning stove. My home's hookup is somewhat different from the typical urban dweller's. An above-ground 7200v 3-phase feeder line extends from the substation approximately 1/2 mile away and one phase of this is taken underground at the corner of my property. Approximately 400 feet later, a pedestal-mounted circuit breaker (I believe the co-op calls them "reclosers") is located at the foot of my driveway. The 7200v cable continues buried about 4' down along the remaining 200 feet of my driveway to a pedestal-mounted transformer in my front yard. The 240v from the transformer then is routed underground and enters my home slightly below grade level and is connected to a conventional outside wall-mounted KWH meter. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Oct 7 16:29:22 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 17:29:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <200510071026440939.485C3623@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510072140.RAA10579@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > 200A @ 110V makes for 22kVA per phase - what do you need all that > power for? I didn't write that, but, I'd want excess capacity. :) I don't want my main breaker to pop just because I have the stove, the baseboard heaters, the laser printer, and the BA123 all on and happen to turn on the hair dryer too. You have to use peak load, not average load, after all, when working out power feed ampacity. :) > One special feature of Norwegian wiring is that we do not have any > concept of "neutral", since the distribution transformers are > delta-connected. ...?? Are your two hot phases only 120? from one another, then, rather than 180?? Surely not.... > Both phase wires are supposed to have the same potential to earth. ...which, at least in my (admittedly rather limited) experience with Norwegian mains, can often differ substantially from the reality. :-/ I think the worst I saw was about 75V on one side and 135V on the other. But this was in a borettslag that quite likely had not been wired as well as it should have been and was probably not that close to its substation besides (note that 75V+135V = 210V, which is a bit low). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 7 16:50:25 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 17:50:25 -0400 Subject: Best OS/2 1.3 or 2.1 Machine References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <200510071026440939.485C3623@10.0.0.252> <200510072140.RAA10579@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <00e501c5cb89$208bfb50$0500fea9@game> I was wondering since IBM produced OS/2 did any of their machines (PS/2 series maybe) run OS/2 better then clones or other companies machines. I have OS/2 1.1 Extended up to 4.0 in my collection and was thinking of getting a dedicated machine to test them out on. Since I have used Warp before I was thinking about trying the older versions like 2.1. Any ideas? From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Oct 7 17:18:00 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 15:18:00 -0700 Subject: Best OS/2 1.3 or 2.1 Machine In-Reply-To: <00e501c5cb89$208bfb50$0500fea9@game> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <200510071026440939.485C3623@10.0.0.252> <200510072140.RAA10579@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00e501c5cb89$208bfb50$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <4346F418.4030206@msm.umr.edu> Teo Zenios wrote: >I was wondering since IBM produced OS/2 did any of their machines (PS/2 >series maybe) run OS/2 better then clones or other companies machines. I >have OS/2 1.1 Extended up to 4.0 in my collection and was thinking of >getting a dedicated machine to test them out on. Since I have used Warp >before I was thinking about trying the older versions like 2.1. > >Any ideas? > > > > I know that they used OS/2 as on the PS/2's that were microcode support machines for their S/390 machines, and probably still do. I believe that many of those machines now have thinkpad console support laptops as well. A bit off topic, but as to compatability, the basic stuff in an PS/2 is not very far from the basics, and I am not aware of any problems with the basic boxes. You will run into problems getting drivers for OS/2 when you start adding tape drives, external floppies, scsi external, and so forth, as you will with any older box. IBM shut down its PC support site some time ago, and I don't know where you can go for anything old anymore. I doubt that even the annoying pseudo porn sites like device-drivers.com or whatever would have much in the way of OS/2 support though that site and it's clones are just repositories of pointers and generators of annoying ad pop ups (hence my tagging them as pseudo porn for the unkillable popup behaviour) jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 7 17:38:59 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 15:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best OS/2 1.3 or 2.1 Machine In-Reply-To: <00e501c5cb89$208bfb50$0500fea9@game> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <200510071026440939.485C3623@10.0.0.252> <200510072140.RAA10579@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00e501c5cb89$208bfb50$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20051007153426.H49026@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > I was wondering since IBM produced OS/2 did any of their machines (PS/2 > series maybe) run OS/2 better then clones or other companies machines. I NO. Most of the PS/2 design was done with DOS 2.X and 3.X MICROSOFT (Gordon Letwin) wrote OS/2 for generics. IBM's marketing and subsequent mods were not PS/2 specific. > have OS/2 1.1 Extended up to 4.0 in my collection and was thinking of > getting a dedicated machine to test them out on. Since I have used Warp > before I was thinking about trying the older versions like 2.1. > > Any ideas? > > -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 7 18:51:53 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 18:51:53 Subject: EECO Paper Tape Reader Pinout? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051007185153.10e74f08@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone know what the pinout for this PTR is? This is a EECO model TRS9200BBDED. It appears to be ann 8 bit reader and has a DB-25M connector and mounts in a 19" rack. Joe From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Oct 7 17:55:35 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 18:55:35 -0400 Subject: Best OS/2 1.3 or 2.1 Machine In-Reply-To: <4346F418.4030206@msm.umr.edu> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <200510071026440939.485C3623@10.0.0.252> <200510072140.RAA10579@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00e501c5cb89$208bfb50$0500fea9@game> <4346F418.4030206@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4346FCE7.6040806@mdrconsult.com> jim stephens wrote: > IBM shut down its PC support site some time ago, and I don't know where > you can > go for anything old anymore. I doubt that even the annoying pseudo porn > sites like > device-drivers.com or whatever would have much in the way of OS/2 support > though that site and it's clones are just repositories of pointers and > generators of > annoying ad pop ups (hence my tagging them as pseudo porn for the > unkillable > popup behaviour) Google MCA Mafia for microchannel support, and the Hobbes archives are still around. I have v4.0 running on a P-III with ATA-100, 10/100mb ethernet, and an AGP ATI Rage Pro running at 1280x1024x24 with the SciTech Display Doctor driver. For OS/2 v3 and previous, as far as I can tell any drivers/hardware support that existed then are still available, but that's still a pretty narrow field. Doc From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Oct 7 17:58:39 2005 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 18:58:39 -0400 Subject: TS computers (was PalmOS no more?) In-Reply-To: <200509301600.JAA14032@floodgap.com> References: <200509301600.JAA14032@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4346FD9F.80001@bellsouth.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > As far as T/S units, there's the 1000 (ZX-81), the 1500 (81 on roids), the > 2048, basically a 48K ZX Spectrum with better video Cameron, have you ever seen a US-made TS2048? To my knowledge they never made it into production. > Btw, anyone getting rid of a 2068? These are constantly on eBay for around $50. If you snag one let me know and I'll hook you up with some goodies :-) Glen 0/0 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 7 19:15:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 19:15:04 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051007191504.11ef8752@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found a pair of these drives and picked them up since my reference said that they were quad density drives AND they had DS-QD disks in them. However I looked on the net and found that everyone including Teac's site says that they are HD (1.2Mb) drives. Which are they? I THINK these have a jumper that chages the speed from 360 RPM to 300RPM. Will this make the drive a QD drive? I thought the heads needed to be differnt since the magnetic media on the disks have different permeability. Joe From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 7 18:26:17 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 16:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TS computers (was PalmOS no more?) In-Reply-To: <4346FD9F.80001@bellsouth.net> from Glen Goodwin at "Oct 7, 5 06:58:39 pm" Message-ID: <200510072326.QAA09456@floodgap.com> > > As far as T/S units, there's the 1000 (ZX-81), the 1500 (81 on roids), the > > 2048, basically a 48K ZX Spectrum with better video > > Cameron, have you ever seen a US-made TS2048? To my knowledge they > never made it into production. I haven't, no. But that's okay, because the 2068 is more interesting even if it's less compatible :) > > Btw, anyone getting rid of a 2068? > > These are constantly on eBay for around $50. If you snag one > let me know and I'll hook you up with some goodies :-) Consider me E-mailing you soooooon. :) The component I want most is the Spectrum emulator, just so I can play games but still work with the expanded features. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Klein bottle for immediate occupancy; inquire within. ---------------------- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 7 18:27:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 00:27:18 +0100 Subject: uk.comp.vintage Message-ID: <43470456.1070307@yahoo.co.uk> I've not seen anyone else mention it, so for the other UK folks on the list it's worth mentioning that this newsgroup has shown up. So far low-traffic, and seems to be mainly 8-bit fans who are into games, but it might be worth keeping an eye on. I mentioned there that we're all over here on classiccmp :-) cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 18:32:39 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:32:39 -0400 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <200510071026440939.485C3623@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 10/7/05, Bj?rn wrote: > On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 19:57:14 +0200, Ethan Dicks > wrote: > > In my area...old 60 Amp drops... and lots of the modern 200 Amp > 200A @ 110V makes for 22kVA per phase - what do you need all that power > for? > I use electrical heating (in southern Norwegian climate), and rarely need > more than 7kW. Electric heat, electric hot water, electric oven, electric clothes dryer, air conditioner, 2-3 TVs... It's typical to see a couple of 20A 220V breakers for things like dryers, plus 30-50A for stove, plus I don't know what for heat (never had electric heat) in a 200A panel, plus at least ten 20A breakers for wall outlets and light fixtures. I would suspect that some time ago (40 years? 50 years?) they looked at the "standard" 60A feed designed in the days of electric lights and little else, and decided that 200A was good enough to handle "most" consumer needs without spending too much money on excess infrastructure. I do not know what devices resulted in that number, but I'm sure a 50A electric stove was part of it (there's one in the other room - upper and lower ovens and 4 burners). Electric hot water heat is also demanding (but I've never lived in an "all electric home" - I've always lived in older, gas-plumbed areas). If there's anyone on the list who is a US licensed electrician, perhaps they could speak up if they learned about this facet of history at some point during their career; I'm just speculating based on what I've seen in my geographic area. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 7 18:34:17 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 16:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051007191504.11ef8752@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051007191504.11ef8752@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20051007162358.U49026@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Joe R. wrote: > I found a pair of these drives and picked them up since my reference said > that they were quad density drives AND they had DS-QD disks in them. > However I looked on the net and found that everyone including Teac's site > says that they are HD (1.2Mb) drives. Which are they? BOTH. The 55F is "720K" only; 55G and GFR are 1.2M. The 55GFR is a reliable and versatile drive. It is not so good with hard-sectored, or NO-index reading. > I THINK these have a > jumper that chages the speed from 360 RPM to 300RPM. Will this make the > drive a QD drive? I thought the heads needed to be differnt since the > magnetic media on the disks have different permeability. The difference between 1.2M and "720K", sometimes called "QUAD density" by the marketing people, are 360 v 300 RPM, 250K v 500K sata transfer rate, and different current levels at the heads (controlleable on the interface). They are both 96TPI. To do "quad" in an "HD" drive requires stepping at 96TPI, but the data transfer rate, and current levels at "360K" levels. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Oct 7 18:36:29 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 00:36:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1161.192.168.0.5.1128728189.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, October 7, 2005 5:50 pm, Alistair MacDonald said: > Your friend would appear to live in a different UK to me. It is however > common practice for the outlets to be in a ring with a 30A fuse in the > fusebox. Indeed, I've never seen a 50a pair run like that though obviously I've never been to every house in the UK :) > items with the wrong fuse. Those of us who perform Portable Appliance > Tests on things get very annoyed at having to replace the fuses on the > first test. Anyone want any 13A fuses? 8-) Those of us who do electrical work (before getting the appropriate government body in to test and sign off etc....jeez!) despair at portable lights and kettles etc run off 13A fuses because 'that'll work won't it' ObClassiccmp: I saw a PET 8032 with 8050 floppy drive and printer yesterday. Bet all of it had 13A fuses :D > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. This message has been scanned by me and determined to be text based and therefore not susceptible to virus attack. 'rah for text based emails! Anyone heard of anything so ridiculous?! (sorry :)) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 7 18:51:51 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 19:51:51 -0400 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? Message-ID: <0IO000J6CKYA16S1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? > From: "Joe R." > Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 19:15:04 +0000 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > I found a pair of these drives and picked them up since my reference said >that they were quad density drives AND they had DS-QD disks in them. >However I looked on the net and found that everyone including Teac's site >says that they are HD (1.2Mb) drives. Which are they? I THINK these have a >jumper that chages the speed from 360 RPM to 300RPM. Will this make the >drive a QD drive? I thought the heads needed to be differnt since the >magnetic media on the disks have different permeability. > > Joe TEAC FD-55GFR aka DEC RX33. Quad density/1.2mb PC drive. QD term is appled to any drive that does 96TPI two sided normal rotation speed(300rpm). The Teac can also do the abnormal(360rpm) PC speed and there are both jumpers and pins on the edge connector to control that. Good solid drive that is very flexible. I have a bunch I kept as they cant be beat with a big stick. Allison From chd_1 at nktelco.net Fri Oct 7 18:54:21 2005 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 19:54:21 -0400 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: <4346F94C.28949.FED7DA67@localhost> References: <4346F94C.28949.FED7DA67@localhost> Message-ID: <43470AAD.2040902@nktelco.net> Hans Franke wrote: >The one-way-plug feature was relevant before protective >ground became standard and before it was routed thruout >the house (instead of beeing tied to ground at each outlet). > >Nowadays, where a protective ground and a residual current breaker >are standard (I assume) in every country, the difference is rather >theoretical. > > In the US, 2 pin polarized plugs are quite common on small appliances and Ground Fault Circuit Interrupting breakers are only required in "wet" areas such as kitchen counters, bathrooms, basements, garages, or outdoors. Local codes may vary. Getting a bit more OT, old computers aren't always GFCI compatible: try to plug a PDP-8/e into a GFCI and you trip it. The power line noise filter consists of a delta of bypass capacitors between the three power leads: L to N, L to G, and N to G. chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Oct 7 19:15:00 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:15:00 -0500 Subject: Best OS/2 1.3 or 2.1 Machine In-Reply-To: <00e501c5cb89$208bfb50$0500fea9@game> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <200510071026440939.485C3623@10.0.0.252> <200510072140.RAA10579@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00e501c5cb89$208bfb50$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20051007191500.450ba99b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 17:50:25 -0400 "Teo Zenios" wrote: > I was wondering since IBM produced OS/2 did any of their machines > (PS/2 series maybe) run OS/2 better then clones or other companies > machines. I have OS/2 1.1 Extended up to 4.0 in my collection and was > thinking of getting a dedicated machine to test them out on. Since I > have used Warp before I was thinking about trying the older versions > like 2.1. > > Any ideas? > A few years back I worked at a Medical Device manufacturer who developed an embedded product using OS/2. So there was a whole team of OS/2 developers. This was actually one of the last large outside-IBM embedded OS/2 shops, in fact. It was later (the OS/2 Warp era) but there was not a single Microchannel machine in sight. Lots of IBM machines from the post PS/2 era, though. I have an IBM PC Server 704 (a big file cabinet sized quad pentium pro behemoth) and there's OS/2 drvier support for it. My recommendation is to tailor your hardware choice to systems that have good driver support in OS/2. I wouldn't mind running my PC Server 704 as an OS/2 Warp Server, but I don't have any idea where to track down Warp Server installation media. It's a dandy machine running NetBSD 2.0 at present. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 7 19:11:09 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 20:11:09 -0400 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? Message-ID: <0IO000ECGLUFSEG2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 16:34:17 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >BOTH. >The 55F is "720K" only; 55G and GFR are 1.2M. >The 55GFR is a reliable and versatile drive. FD55A single sided 48tpi 300rpm FD55B Two sided 48tpi 300 rpm FD55E single sided 96tpi 300rpm FD55F two sided 96tpi 300rpm FD55G two sides 96tpi 300/360rpm >It is not so good with hard-sectored, or NO-index reading. Works great with NS* hard sector controller at 300rpm. >The difference between 1.2M and "720K", sometimes called "QUAD density" by >the marketing people, are 360 v 300 RPM, 250K v 500K sata transfer rate, >and different current levels at the heads (controlleable on the >interface). They are both 96TPI. QD is for those systems that DD was 360k (48tpi). QD system could be 720k, 780k(amproLB). >To do "quad" in an "HD" drive requires stepping at 96TPI, but the data >transfer rate, and current levels at "360K" levels. Or the common QD systems I have the data rate is same as DD (still 300rpm) but there are twice as many tracks or quad. 5.25 floppies started at 80k (sa400 single density one side 40 tracks (48tpi) all the way to near 800k (FD55F, DD, two sides 96tpi). There were enough marketing names to the capacity jumps to confuse even the marketers. however once the data rates hit DD there were SSDD(160K raw), DSDD(400k raw) and then DSQD(800k raw) and there was even a SSQD(400K raw) (yep 96tpi DD data rate and only one side). that last one was know widely as RX50 and also appeared using FD55E on Visual 1050. There was the 1.2mb PC thing. This is why 5.25 floppy was so much confusion as it morphed from the 35 track SA400 through the FD55GFR. There there were the formats applied.. [open can, worms!, run!] Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Oct 7 19:17:00 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:17:00 -0500 Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: <20051007142940.62272.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051007142940.62272.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051007191700.5a098289.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 07:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Chris M wrote: > dont have one, but want one. I hope youll make disk > images available. I certainly will. A list member has extended a warm welcome to the idea of me imaging my disks and putting them on his site. More to follow when they're all imaged and online. > --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > wrote: > > Does anybody else on the list have an MPX-16 system? > I recently > > acquired one from a list member and am wondering how > many of these > > systems still exist. I have a large (relatively) > collection of > > diskettes with mine. > > > > The MPX-16, for those not familiar with it, was > published as a project > > in Steve Ciarcia's 'Circuit Cellar' column in Byte > magazine. It was a > > three part 'construction' article and the machine > was sold by MicroMint > > for a time. What I've heard is that about 500 > machines in total were > > produced. > > > > It's an early 'IBM Compatible' in that they designed > it to be similar to > > the PC, but only to a certain degree. It uses a > serial console rather > > than keyboard/display adapter, and it runs CP/M-86 > and supposedly MS-DOS > > though I don't have DOS diskettes for mine. It has > ISA slots and a > > similar architecture to the IBM-PC, coming out of > that early era before > > there were PC clones from the likes of Compaq. > > > > I'm curious of how many other MPX-16 systems have > survived to today. > > There isn't a lot about it online. I can share what > information I have, > > as I have manuals and docs with my system. I'm > interested in hearing > > from other people with this machine. > > > > Scott > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > http://mail.yahoo.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Oct 7 19:24:09 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:24:09 -0500 Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <200510071629.JAA10104@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200510071629.JAA10104@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20051007192409.0a4e0913.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 09:29:36 -0700 (PDT) "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >From: "Hans Franke" > ---snip--- > > First thing would be > >to connect a logic analyzer to see if the CPU is still running > >a programm in ROM or not. > > Hi > What is it with logic analyzers. Why not just an > oscilloscope. In most cases, one can be farther along > with an 'oscope in finding what is wrong by the > time one can get an analyzer connected and setup. > I've only had one time that I ever needed an analyzer > and even that time, it didn't work well because > of the complexity of the problem ( design not failure ). > I'll admit that I've often thought of making one > of those address compare circuits to trigger the 'scope > but by the time I'd get serious, I'd found the problem. > Am I alone here or does everyone else think that an > analyzer is the ultimate tool? > Dwight > > Or you can use the "Poor Man's Logic Analyzer" which is a pair of D/A converters hooked to address/data lines and plugged into the appropriate address lines. You hook the outputs of the DACs into an oscilloscope configured as an X/Y display and adjust gain so that it makes a grid on the screen. It shows you dynamically where the software is branching in the memory map. If you use this method regularly, it can be a 'signature analyzer' of sorts. You'll get to know kind of dynamic display to expect and/or you can even write short diagnostic programs to 'draw' specific patterns on the display. This sort of 'analyzer' definitely shows wether a processor is in a 'lively' mode and running around on the bus, or is stuck in a loop somewhere. If you want to be fancy, you can latch the bus fed to the DAC with your chosen enable signals. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 7 19:30:21 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 17:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <0IO000ECGLUFSEG2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IO000ECGLUFSEG2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051007171837.U49026@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > FD55A single sided 48tpi 300rpm > FD55B Two sided 48tpi 300 rpm > FD55E single sided 96tpi 300rpm > FD55F two sided 96tpi 300rpm > FD55G two sides 96tpi 300/360rpm and a few "sub-models" with various minor differences. > >It is not so good with hard-sectored, or NO-index reading. > Works great with NS* hard sector controller at 300rpm. not always so happy with some of the poorly designed flux-transition adapters for PCs ("Apple Turnover"). And, if you need to suppress index pulse (to read certain far from spec WD formats on 765, interrupt the signal in the cable, NOT by covering index hole. > QD is for those systems that DD was 360k (48tpi). QD system could be 720k, > 780k(amproLB). also 800K (5*1024, 10 * 512, etc.), and 640K (16*256, 8* 512 (supported by XP!!! (/t:80/N:8))). And, there were a few oddball systems that ran 70 or 77 tracks, instead of 80. > hit DD there were SSDD(160K raw), DSDD(400k raw) and then DSQD(800k raw) depending on your definition of "raw" ~250K, ~500K, ~1000K unformatted capacity. > and there was even a SSQD(400K raw) (yep 96tpi DD data rate and only one side). > This is why 5.25 floppy was so much confusion as it morphed from the 35 track > SA400 through the FD55GFR. YEP! > There there were the formats applied.. [open can, worms!, run!] OK, we'll try not to go there From chd_1 at nktelco.net Fri Oct 7 19:33:59 2005 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 20:33:59 -0400 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: <4346D685.6010303@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <4346D685.6010303@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <434713F7.6010708@nktelco.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > So it seems to be something to do with the TV and cable box having a > connection via the aerial lead that's causing trouble, but only when > they're using certain power outlets. Determine if there is a potential between the aerial lead and the TV or cable box. A story, perhaps helpful, perhaps not: A couple of years ago, the lights in my house dimmed and brightened noticably when the refrigerator would turn on or I would toast bread or iron a shirt. I came to the conclusion that the neutral lead into my house had excessive resistance. It was only a volt or two change when I measured it, so I didn't think it was a problem. Later, I was changing some cable TV wires and noticed that one was actually warm to the touch. I went out to the telephone pole where the wire came out the soil from my house and it was HOT. I fiddled with the wire a bit and it melted and came apart, throwing sparks as it did. The neutral conductor in the underground cable into my house failed at a buried junction. For some time, my house neutral currents were carried by the cable company's coax shield. It is interesting that none of the other "ground" connections carried much current back to the transformer on the pole. There were 5 paths to the pole: the neutral that failed, a groundrod, the water main, the gas main, and the cable wire, and all the current seems to have gone through the cable wire. -chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 19:49:11 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:49:11 -0400 Subject: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: References: <10510070009.ZM14109@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200510062343.QAA09330@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 10/7/05, Eric J Korpela wrote: > At http://www.6502.org/oldmicro/buildkim/buildkim.htm you can find > schematics of the original KIM and one that can be built with a 6532. There > might be enough info there in order to replace the 6530 with a 6532+EPROM > daughter board. I've seen that before - nice writeup on what has to be done to make a KIM from easily-available parts. I think the hardest thing is to find a suitable keypad. If one were to hand-wire one, one could even use Radio-Shack protoboards with the 22-position 0.154" spacing edge fingers if one had external accessories to attach (or use 0.1" headers and ribbon cable for "modern" expansions). Easy to max out the memory these days... one chip! -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 7 19:55:19 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 17:55:19 -0700 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <0IO000ECGLUFSEG2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IO000ECGLUFSEG2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510071755190876.49F6E484@10.0.0.252> A fair number of 55F's had head-load solenoids. 'Way back when PC-AT's and AT-clones had more-or-less standardized BIOS conventions, I wrote a little DOS TSR that would allow a 1.2M 5.25" to masquerade as a 3.5" 720K drive. It seemed silly not to take advantage of the native capabilities of the 5.25" drive and make the 720K 96 tpi possible on DSDD diskettes. Some "clone" BIOSes didn't require a special TSR to read 720K 5.25" diskettes, but the IBM PC-AT did. When the various clone makers started to reassign the meaning of the bits at 40:90 and 40:91, this scheme became broken and it was simpler to employ a device driver that manipulated the 765 directly. When we were devising forensics exercises for the law enforcement community in the early days, we used to pass out an exercise on a 360K diskette, with innocent decoy data written on the even-numbered tracks and a complete second 360K image with the incriminating evidence on the odd-numbered tracks. Somewhat OT: I find that commodity 1.44MB diskettes are far more reliable when used as DS2D media. Just cover over the "window" with some opaque tape or one of those "write protect" tabs from a box of 5.25" diskettes (or "write enable" tabs from a box of 8" diskettes). Sadly, although XP will read them, it will no longer format them. Time marches on... Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 7 20:08:23 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 18:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <200510071755190876.49F6E484@10.0.0.252> References: <0IO000ECGLUFSEG2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <200510071755190876.49F6E484@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051007180424.Y49026@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Somewhat OT: I find that commodity 1.44MB diskettes are far more reliable when used as DS2D media. Just cover over the "window" with some opaque tape or one of those "write protect" tabs from a box of 5.25" diskettes (or "write enable" tabs from a box of 8" diskettes). > Sadly, although XP will read them, it will no longer format them. Have you tried FORMAT A: /T:80/N:9 from the command line? /F (/F:2, /F:720) is gone :-( and Windoze Explode doesn't provide much options. ... and the "phantom" B: drive seems to be gone :-( On at least SOME machines, I've been able to Format 720K From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 7 14:40:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:40:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <20051007002404.4f27c291.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Oct 7, 5 00:24:04 am Message-ID: > Think about the density of the data on the diskettes (this is not a > comment meant as a defense for the poor quality of magnetic media, just > part of the discussion) A 1.44M floppy diskette puts a lot more data in > a smaller area. The highest density 8" media I ever had was DSDD, or > 720K on the big 8" surface. That's a LOT larger disk and hence a much It was actually closer to 1.2M. In fact the 1.2M IBM PC/AT format is almost exactly the same as a standard 8" format (it's the same data rate, same rotational speed, etc), the main difference being that the 8" drive has 77 cylinders, the 5.25" drive 80. However, I would rather have less data on a disk (and thus have to buy/carry/store more floppies) and be able to read it back later, than cram as much as possible onto a disk and find it's unreadable a few days later. > lower density. > > Plus, the world of computers today has a lot more room for > junk/commodity media. Anybody using floppy diskettes in 1976 had > serious heavy-duty reasons for doing so. And those diskettes were > EXPENSIVE. The disks you can get now at the Walgreens or a grocery > store aren't the same. Further, there's no market for a high quality I've pointed out several tinms here that the first disks I bought for my TRS-80 Model 1 cost me \pounds 5.00 _each_ (not a box of 10 or anything like that).. That mackine put 88K on each disk (single sided, 35 cylinders, FM (single desnity)). Point is, those disks are still readable 20 years later. I would like to be able to pay a reasonable amount -- say \pounds 5.00 to \pounds 10.00 for a 3.5" disk with the same quality level. Because my data is worth a lot more than that. > diskette, because 'high quality' customers have moved on to newer > mediums. Alas I have not. Not only because the newer drives are very poorly made and not properly documented, but also because most, if not all, of my machines can't use them. You try finding a DVD writer for a PERQ, or an HP41, or an HP9836, or.... > > I got handed a new shrinkwrapped box of 8" diskettes recently at work. > Finally everybody there is getting to know I am the person to hand stuff > to. I'm soon to get a nice desktop HP pen plotter, too. Which model? I would love to find a 9862 with the original HP9810 interface module. But no chance of that (it would have to be local, there's no way I could afford to ship one anyway). Do far, the oddest pen plotter I've found is the 7470 Opt 003. That's an HPIL interface, it links up to the HP41, HP71, and HP75 calculators, amongst other machines. There's even an HP41 ROM module to support it. It's rather strange seeing a handheld calculator driving a full-size A4 plotter. The stranged HP plotter I own is not a pen plotter. It's the 7245A thermal printer/plotter. It's both a normal thermal printer _and_ a plotter -- in the latter mode it rolls the paper back and forth, moves the carriage across, and uses a special heater dot in the printhead to draw lines. Or so I am told. Mine doesn't work yet, which is why it's currently in a lot of bits on the bench. There are a lot of manuals (user and service) for HP plotters on http://www.hpmuseum.net , BTW. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 7 14:46:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:46:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <10510070757.ZM15073@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 7, 5 07:57:27 am Message-ID: > > On Oct 6 2005, 22:03, Tony Duell wrote: > > > fear it's more likely a 6530, and I assume they're unobtanium. Has > > > anyone ever come up with a kludge to effectively use a 6532 > > > My Commodore 8250LP disk drive has an official kludgeboard in what > seems > > to be a socket designed for an 6530. It contains a 6532, a ROM, and a > > simple TTL chip ('04 or something like that). > > Sounds like a start. I obviously can't get this fixed for, er, today, Argh, I misremembered it :-(. I've found the schematic I traced out. It contains a 6530 (not a 6532), a 2716, and a 74LS04. The 6530 pins are wirrd to corresponding pins on the header, apart from RS0/, which is tied high (to disable the internal ROM of that chip). The 2716 A0..A9 go to the corresponding header pins, A10 is grounded. D0..D7 on the 2716 also go to the obvious header pins. OE/ goes to RS0/ on the header. CS/ is Phi_2, inverted by one of the gates in the '04. I don;t know if you could do a similar thing with a 6532, I think you could. At least this would let you use any 6530 with the appropriate chip-select polarites, no matter what was in the ROM. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 7 15:13:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:13:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <0IO000IGN1NEIGG0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Oct 7, 5 12:55:01 pm Message-ID: > With all that in the case of 'shooting a KIM-1 the first tool > I'd grab is the trusty VOM to check power and then the logic > probe (you know those things that run off 5V and have three > leds for logic levels aka logic dart) and proble around for I have never heard a normal logic probe called a logic dart. The LogicDart (I think that's the right capitalisation) is a lovely little instrument, originally HP, then probably Agilent, and I think it's now made by Fluke under license. It's a handheld tool which can be used as a logic probe 3 channel logic analyser, or diode/continuity checker. The most useful mode, IMHO, is 'investigate' In that mode, it works like a logic probe. You only use one input channel, you have one probe to tap on the circuit under test. There are red and green LEDs to show 0 and 1 on the probe tip. It displays the DC voltage at the probe tip (good for checking supplies), and the frequency (determined by number of threshold crossings per second). It's not a good DVM or frequency counter, it only displays 2 or 3 figures in each case. But it's good enough to tell if you're looking at the 5V supply or the -12V supply. It'll tell you if you're looking at the 10MHz master clock or the same clock divided by 4. And hit a buttone and it'll sample the signal and display it -- a bit like a 1-channel analyser. Of course the sampling rate _and the thresholds_ are user selectable. I won;t do everything, but as a first tool to start sorting out the problem it's excellent. The only disadvantage is that it's not cheap... -tony k From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 7 14:48:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:48:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <43466F61.174.FCBD1A5C@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Oct 7, 5 12:51:45 pm Message-ID: > > Am 7 Oct 2005 0:09 meinte Pete Turnbull: > > > As some of you know, I'm helping with an exhibition of classic machines > > in the Department of Computer Science -- for Open Day tomorrow > > (Friday), and running conducted tours on Wednesday as well. > > That's unusual, standard procedure is that a machine dies at > the opening day at the first real presentation - no matter > how often you testet before. I've found a fairly effective way to prevent this is to have a good toolkit and a pile of test gear at the demonstration too, and let the machine know you intend to use it if necessary :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 7 15:19:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:19:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051007191504.11ef8752@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Oct 7, 5 07:15:04 pm Message-ID: > > I found a pair of these drives and picked them up since my reference said > that they were quad density drives AND they had DS-QD disks in them. They are both quad desinty and high density. The 'G' in the model number means high density, the 'F' means quad density (80 cylinder, double sided). > However I looked on the net and found that everyone including Teac's site > says that they are HD (1.2Mb) drives. Which are they? I THINK these have a > jumper that chages the speed from 360 RPM to 300RPM. Will this make the They do. Howeve, a PC/AT contorller can do the 300kbps data rate. That was officially to allow the high density drive to read the 360K double-density disk, but rememebr that disk only had 40 cylinders, so the head was double-stepped as well. If you use that data rate (or slow the motor down to 300 rpm) and use all the cylinders (don't double-step), you get a quad-density drive. > drive a QD drive? I thought the heads needed to be differnt since the > magnetic media on the disks have different permeability. No, the heads are the same. The write current is different, but that drive can do both write currents, controlled, IIRC, by pin 2 on the interface connector. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 7 15:01:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:01:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <200510071629.JAA10104@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at Oct 7, 5 09:29:36 am Message-ID: > > First thing would be > >to connect a logic analyzer to see if the CPU is still running > >a programm in ROM or not. > > Hi > What is it with logic analyzers. Why not just an > oscilloscope. In most cases, one can be farther along > with an 'oscope in finding what is wrong by the > time one can get an analyzer connected and setup. > I've only had one time that I ever needed an analyzer > and even that time, it didn't work well because > of the complexity of the problem ( design not failure ). > I'll admit that I've often thought of making one > of those address compare circuits to trigger the 'scope > but by the time I'd get serious, I'd found the problem. > Am I alone here or does everyone else think that an > analyzer is the ultimate tool? The logic analyser is not the ultimate faultfinding device. In fact the ultimate faultfinding device isn't made by Tektronix, Agilent or Lecroy, it doesn't come from RS components, Farnell, or Digikey. As I've said many times before, it's called a brain :-). A person with minimal test gear who knows what they are doing will easily beat an idiot with the most expensive 'scope and analyser in existance. Period. That said, you do need to collect information from the unit under repair in order to find the fault. Now whether I would use a 'scope or a logic analyser depends on the problem and the device. A trivial example is that a logic analuser is uselss for sorting out an SMPSU, while a 'scope is not that useful in trying to figure out what's going on on a 16 bit bus. AS to what I sue, I will admit I use my LogicDart a lot. That's a 3-channel handheld logic analyser with one excellent feature. Rather than just recording 0 or 1, it records 0, 1, or undefined. The latter is very useful for finding marginal gates ;-).That instrumet is almost as easy to use as a logic probe, but tells you a lot more about the circuit under test. I do have other analysers with more input channels, and I am glad of them sometimes. But I don't use them that much. Similarly with the 'scope, actually, I have a little Solartron 'scope that I use for most work. It's only 15MHz, but it'll find PSU ripple, look at chopper waveforms, etc. I have the good Tekky 555 that I use when it's needed, but most of the time it's easier to use the smaller 'scope. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 7 15:05:39 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:05:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051007164411.0edf8fc8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Oct 7, 5 04:44:11 pm Message-ID: > I once worked in a hospital and repairing the TVs was one of my > responsibilities. One day we had a call for a TV that won't work. When we > arrived it was working fine. A little latter we had a call for the same > thing from the adjacent room. This time we checked closer. We found that > the TVs were back to back on a common wall and both TVs used the same > electrical circuit. Somewhere there was an open circuit between the AC > outlets such that the two TVs were in series so neither one would work > unless both were turned on! That's why the patients TVs were dead, one > patient would turn their set off and it would turn both of them off. The > surprising thing was that both sets worked normal when in series. Very > surprising since each one was running off 1/2 the normal voltage! Were they, though? Obviously, I don't know the details, but the most obvious way this could happen on the US mains wiring system would be if one live ('hot') side of each socket outlet was wired to each side of the centre-tapped mains. The neutral sides of the sockets were linked together, but for some reason that connection was not connected back to the centre-tap of the mains supply. That would put the 2 TVs in series across the 230V mains. Assuming they were similar sets, each would see about 115V. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 7 20:21:46 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 18:21:46 -0700 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <20051007180424.Y49026@shell.lmi.net> References: <0IO000ECGLUFSEG2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <200510071755190876.49F6E484@10.0.0.252> <20051007180424.Y49026@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510071821460016.4A0F1811@10.0.0.252> On 10/7/2005 at 6:08 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >Have you tried FORMAT A: /T:80/N:9 from the command line? On the one or two that I've tried, it was no-go. Cheers, Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 7 20:40:23 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 18:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KIM-1 repair advice wanted Message-ID: <200510080140.SAA10326@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> On Oct 6 2005, 22:03, Tony Duell wrote: >> > > fear it's more likely a 6530, and I assume they're unobtanium. Has >> > > anyone ever come up with a kludge to effectively use a 6532 >> >> > My Commodore 8250LP disk drive has an official kludgeboard in what >> seems >> > to be a socket designed for an 6530. It contains a 6532, a ROM, and a >> > simple TTL chip ('04 or something like that). >> >> Sounds like a start. I obviously can't get this fixed for, er, today, > >Argh, I misremembered it :-(. I've found the schematic I traced out. It >contains a 6530 (not a 6532), a 2716, and a 74LS04. > >The 6530 pins are wirrd to corresponding pins on the header, apart from >RS0/, which is tied high (to disable the internal ROM of that chip). The >2716 A0..A9 go to the corresponding header pins, A10 is grounded. D0..D7 >on the 2716 also go to the obvious header pins. OE/ goes to RS0/ on the >header. CS/ is Phi_2, inverted by one of the gates in the '04. > > I don;t know if you could do a similar thing with a 6532, I think you >could. At least this would let you use any 6530 with the appropriate >chip-select polarites, no matter what was in the ROM. Hi Tony This is not totally true. I don't recall just what it was but there are some mask options that are not easily handled from the outside of the part. I just don't recall what it was. I was looking at doing something similar rather than pay about $120 to replace a sound board on my Gottlieb Genie pinball machine. As I recall it was an inversion of one of the data port's outputs as a mask option or something like that. Dwight From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Oct 7 20:42:04 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:42:04 -0400 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? Message-ID: <20051008014203.WOYK10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 19:15 07/10/2005, you wrote: > I found a pair of these drives and picked them up since my reference said >that they were quad density drives AND they had DS-QD disks in them. >However I looked on the net and found that everyone including Teac's site >says that they are HD (1.2Mb) drives. Which are they? I THINK these have a >jumper that chages the speed from 360 RPM to 300RPM. Will this make the >drive a QD drive? I thought the heads needed to be differnt since the >magnetic media on the disks have different permeability. > > Joe One of my favorite FDDs. These will do either HD or DD (called QD because it is 80 tracks). The recording density (HD or DD/QD) is defined by interface pin #2. 'LG' strap ON : Pin2 Hi = DD/QD, Pin2 Low = HD 'LG' strap OFF: Pin2 Hi = HD, Pin2 Low = DD/QD You also need to run the drive at 300 RPM in you are using a standard 250khz transfer rate controller - To do this, put strap 'I' ON - this will run at 360 during HD operation, and 300 during DD/QD operation - with 'I' OFF, the drives runs at 360 rpm all the time. NOTE: A PC controller transfers data to HD drives running in DD/QD mode at 300khz, which means that PC drives always run at 360rpm - but for a non PC/HD controller, the data rate will be 250khz, and you need to jumper the drive to run at 300rpm. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 7 21:14:24 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: <200510071418040725.492FFF83@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Line voltage in the US is now closer to 120 v phase-to-ground; Yay! Someone with a clue. Folks, 110/220 VAC went out of style YEARS ago. The modern design center is 120/240 VAC. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 7 21:16:54 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:16:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Original PDP-8 spares In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've recently sent some boards to dmrazzler, who is trying to ressurect a > straight-8. I'm pretty sure he'd be interested (though you probably > wouldn't > get rich there, if cash is an objective). One of these days I am going to need a pile of R, S and B series modules for a LINC-8 carcass. Those, and a LINCtape (that will be a fun thing to find). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Oct 7 21:21:32 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:21:32 -0500 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: References: <20051007002404.4f27c291.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051007212132.478269f5.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:40:25 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Think about the density of the data on the diskettes (this is not a > > comment meant as a defense for the poor quality of magnetic media, > > just part of the discussion) A 1.44M floppy diskette puts a lot more > > data in a smaller area. The highest density 8" media I ever had was > > DSDD, or 720K on the big 8" surface. That's a LOT larger disk and > > hence a much > > It was actually closer to 1.2M. In fact the 1.2M IBM PC/AT format is > almost exactly the same as a standard 8" format (it's the same data > rate, same rotational speed, etc), the main difference being that the > 8" drive has 77 cylinders, the 5.25" drive 80. > I was pretty keen on the drive space available to me back when I was running my BigBoard system (Xerox 820 clone) with two DSDD 8" drives. I am almost certain the formatted capacity with CP/M was 720K with those drives. I remember it so distinctly because when I 'upgraded' to a PC-XT clone, I was suddenly downsized to 360K per disk, exactly half the space. Is it possible that the 1.2M capacity is like the 'advertized' 2M capacity that 3-1/2" 1.44 floppies sometimes have printed on them? Meaning, is that the raw unformatted capacity of the drive? From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Oct 7 21:25:49 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:25:49 -0500 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: References: <20051007002404.4f27c291.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051007212549.3a6035ad.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:40:25 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I've pointed out several tinms here that the first disks I bought for > my TRS-80 Model 1 cost me \pounds 5.00 _each_ (not a box of 10 or > anything like that).. That mackine put 88K on each disk (single sided, > 35 cylinders, FM (single desnity)). Point is, those disks are still > readable 20 years later. > > I would like to be able to pay a reasonable amount -- say \pounds 5.00 > to \pounds 10.00 for a 3.5" disk with the same quality level. Because > my data is worth a lot more than that. > Maybe what's needed is a lower density format and/or a redundant filesystem using the current media. Surely a redundant filesystem or lower density encoding scheme that only tried to fit 88K on a 3-1/2" HD floppy diskette would succeed in having MUCH greater longetivity. Maybe there's a 'market' for something like that, i.e. a disk format where data is written redundantly on ten zones of the drive or something. It really should be mostly a software problem. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Oct 7 21:33:07 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:33:07 -0500 Subject: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: References: <43466F61.174.FCBD1A5C@localhost> Message-ID: <20051007213307.2fbff75e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:48:23 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > Am 7 Oct 2005 0:09 meinte Pete Turnbull: > > > > > As some of you know, I'm helping with an exhibition of classic > > > machines in the Department of Computer Science -- for Open Day > > > tomorrow(Friday), and running conducted tours on Wednesday as > > > well. > > > > That's unusual, standard procedure is that a machine dies at > > the opening day at the first real presentation - no matter > > how often you testet before. > > I've found a fairly effective way to prevent this is to have a good > toolkit and a pile of test gear at the demonstration too, and let the > machine know you intend to use it if necessary :-) > At work this past week I was given a nice small Telequipment 'scope that is perfect for that sort of mobile use. It's an S54A and seems nice and bright and works great. Single trace, which is probably why I got it for free. It's my first Telequipment 'scope, though some of my Tek scopes are British made so probably essentially 'Telequiment' scopes as well. It's not a painful 'luggable' like my Tek 465M. > -tony From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Oct 7 21:36:49 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:36:49 -0500 Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: References: <200510071629.JAA10104@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20051007213649.19684c52.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:01:51 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > First thing would be > > >to connect a logic analyzer to see if the CPU is still running > > >a programm in ROM or not. > > > > Hi > > What is it with logic analyzers. Why not just an > > oscilloscope. In most cases, one can be farther along > > with an 'oscope in finding what is wrong by the > > time one can get an analyzer connected and setup. > > I've only had one time that I ever needed an analyzer > > and even that time, it didn't work well because > > of the complexity of the problem ( design not failure ). > > I'll admit that I've often thought of making one > > of those address compare circuits to trigger the 'scope > > but by the time I'd get serious, I'd found the problem. > > Am I alone here or does everyone else think that an > > analyzer is the ultimate tool? > > The logic analyser is not the ultimate faultfinding device. In fact > the ultimate faultfinding device isn't made by Tektronix, Agilent or > Lecroy, it doesn't come from RS components, Farnell, or Digikey. As > I've said many times before, it's called a brain :-). > Back in the day, techs didn't get to use Logic Analyzers much in any case. They were targeted as development tools, not for troubleshooting, and only the high mucky-muck engineers had them. They were too expensive (always in the five figures, usually the mid five figures) for mere 'troubleshooting' and really not that well suited to such pursuits. A Logic Analyzer is for things like developing a Data General mini. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Oct 7 21:43:53 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:43:53 -0500 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <20051007180424.Y49026@shell.lmi.net> References: <0IO000ECGLUFSEG2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <200510071755190876.49F6E484@10.0.0.252> <20051007180424.Y49026@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20051007214353.3c8368b4.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 18:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Somewhat OT: I find that commodity 1.44MB diskettes are far more > > reliable when used as DS2D media. Just cover over the "window" with > > some opaque tape or one of those "write protect" tabs from a box of > > 5.25" diskettes (or "write enable" tabs from a box of 8" diskettes). > > Sadly, although XP will read them, it will no longer format them. > > Have you tried FORMAT A: /T:80/N:9 from the command line? > /F (/F:2, /F:720) is gone :-( > and Windoze Explode doesn't provide much options. > ... and the "phantom" B: drive seems to be gone :-( > > On at least SOME machines, I've been able to Format 720K > **odd look** What's this Windows XP? (I'm still managing to be totally agnostic to it) What was the rationale in abandoning a diskette format? Does XP also not support 5-1/4" drives?? Actually, I am still slowly getting over my long painful struggle to get two floppy drives enabled on a Dell Optiplex system. There's support for a second floppy in the BIOS but it appears the hardware support is entirely missing. I had to just do away with the 3-1/2" disk to get a 5-1/4" disk installed in one of my (many, since I get them for < $5 all kitted out with Pentium III processors) beloved (!!??!!) Optiplex boxes. Was there THAT much savings in not including hardware support for two floppies, DELL? Why not patch settings for the second drive out of the BIOS so we don't pound our heads against the wall trying?? From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 21:59:26 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:59:26 -0400 Subject: The MSCPSCSI project status Message-ID: Hi, list, I am happy to let you know that Rev. 1 cought up with Rev. 0 almost surely (a.s.). There is still long way to go, though. cheers, vax, 9000 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 7 22:08:19 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 20:08:19 -0700 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <20051007214353.3c8368b4.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <0IO000ECGLUFSEG2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <200510071755190876.49F6E484@10.0.0.252> <20051007180424.Y49026@shell.lmi.net> <20051007214353.3c8368b4.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200510072008190138.4A70A3F3@10.0.0.252> On 10/7/2005 at 9:43 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >Actually, I am still slowly getting over my long painful struggle to get >two floppy drives enabled on a Dell Optiplex system. There's support >for a second floppy in the BIOS but it appears the hardware support is >entirely missing. Sounds like Dell, all right. Shave a few cents here and there. You know, the old Sony 3.5" drives did have one particular advantage over both 8" and 5.25' media--they spun at 600 RPM. (Yes, I know that 600 RPM 5.25' drives exist for duplicator use, but the Sony drives were stock). --Chuck From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 22:15:26 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 23:15:26 -0400 Subject: The MSCPSCSI project status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have updated the web site at www.mscpscsi.com. vax, 9000 On 10/7/05, 9000 VAX wrote: > Hi, list, > I am happy to let you know that Rev. 1 cought up with Rev. 0 almost > surely (a.s.). There is still long way to go, though. > > cheers, > vax, 9000 > From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Oct 7 22:27:42 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:27:42 -0500 Subject: Two Zenith MiniSports listed at VCM Message-ID: <20051007222742.592e20cc.chenmel@earthlink.net> I thought I would try something new, so I just posted two Zenith MiniSport systems I have for auction at Sellam's VCM website. This is my first VCM listing, I thought I should give it a try. From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Oct 7 22:38:55 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 23:38:55 -0400 Subject: TEC FD-50x drives - known issues? Message-ID: <20051008033854.VUI5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, I've been trying to get the drives from a Nabu Cable PC working for the museum in Toronto who wants to put a working system on display... The drives are TEC FD-501, single-sided DD drives. Some time ago I posted a request for technical information on the TEC FD-503 drives in one of my Morrows, because one of them had failed - the 501 is the same drive, same board, just without the top head and connector/components on the board. I didn't find any information, and ended up abandoning the drive and installing a panasonic DD drive - unfortunately this isn't an option for this system without a fair bit of work, because the drives are contained in an enclosure just big enough for the drives, and connect to a board located directly behind them with 1" cables for the data connectors. The data connectors are on the oppposide side from all the other DD drives I have (of course - and I have a fairly good selection!). The drives also have a silkscreened "Nabu" faceplate which would be nice to keep for the display. Both drives have failed - It is not a configuration/jumpering issue, because they were working - also, I have the exact same system, disk box and drives, and mine work - they are jumpered exactly the same. I've tried cleaning the heads, checking for other mechanical issues, and replacing all of the electrolitics on the drive boards - I can't do much more without technical information. I did try connecting a panasonic drive (had to hold it out of the case to get the cables to go on), and it worked perfectly - the problem is definately the drives. After some looking, I managed to find another pair of identical TEC FD-501 drives - these came from a MSI disk box which had stopped working, and guess what - both of those drives do not work either (jumpered exactly the same as my working ones). That makes 5 out of 8 TEC FD-50x drives drives that I have come across in the past year which are faulty - does anyone know if there is a known issue with these drives? So, I'm looking for (in this order): - Technical information on the drives which would enable me to repair these ones. - A pair of working FD-501 (or FD-503) drives which I could swap the faceplates with to closely aproximate the "original" drives. - Any DD 5.25" drives which will fit. Only need single sided, but double-sided will work. With the drive sitting on the table facing you (connectors at rear), the data connector must be in the left rear corner with pin2 on top, closest to the centerline of the drive. Can anyone help? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Oct 7 22:39:01 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 23:39:01 -0400 Subject: LF: MIL MOD8 parts/software/information Message-ID: <20051008033900.VUW5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, Recently acquired most of a MIL MOD8 - this is a Canadian 8008 machine from 1974. Photos and documentation on my site. I got a complete chassis, as well as unpopulated ROM and RAM cards. What I don't have is the CPU board, Restart/TTYboard, input board or output board. If anyone has some leads on where I can locate these components, please let me know. I do have a copy of the MF8008 applications manual, which includes complete documentaion and schematics of the MOD8 machine. I also have several vector board which fit the backplane and match the form-factor of the MIL boards, so if I cannot find boards by other means, I will build them (which means I would need to find an 8008 CPU). Any parts, documentation or software for this machine would be most welcome - being keenly interested in Canadian vintage computers and their history, I would very much like to see this running someday. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Oct 7 22:52:49 2005 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 23:52:49 EDT Subject: Best OS/2 1.3 or 2.1 Machine Message-ID: In a message dated 10/7/2005 6:40:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cisin at xenosoft.com writes: On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > I was wondering since IBM produced OS/2 did any of their machines (PS/2 > series maybe) run OS/2 better then clones or other companies machines. I OS/2 is a match made in heaven for the PS/2 computers. I've installed it on a 9595 and it was the easiest install I ever did and I didn't have to go looking for drivers either. I just recently installed warp server for ebusiness on an IBM server 330 with RAID and no problems there either. Runs fine with 64meg! I even bought the remote management card for it and got that running with an old version of netfinity for OS/2 I thankfully kept. I can remotely admin the machine if I want. I could not find a video driver for the integrated CL video card and ended up installed a PCI trident video card since I could find a driver for it. The IBM support site is totally USELESS for finding anything for older machines now. I could not find any support files for this 8640-ES2 server. For OS/2 drivers, google on OS/2 device driver pak online and you will find what you need. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Oct 7 23:25:47 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 00:25:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <20051007212549.3a6035ad.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051007002404.4f27c291.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051007212549.3a6035ad.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200510080434.AAA22709@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I would like to be able to pay a reasonable amount -- say \pounds >> 5.00 to \pounds 10.00 for a 3.5" disk with the same quality level. >> Because my data is worth a lot more than that. > Maybe what's needed is a lower density format and/or a redundant > filesystem using the current media. Surely a redundant filesystem or > lower density encoding scheme that only tried to fit 88K on a 3-1/2" > HD floppy diskette would succeed in having MUCH greater longetivity. You can't do much about the width of a track, because head size is a physical constant of the drive. In principle current hardware could put flux transitions farther apart or some such, but I don't know whether the existing controller electronics can. > Maybe there's a 'market' for something like that, i.e. a disk format > where data is written redundantly on ten zones of the drive or > something. It really should be mostly a software problem. It should be - but is it? I don't know floppy controller chips enough to say. However, if you pick up any good book on coding theory you can read all about adding ECC bits and then scattering data around so that (say) any arbitrary ten sectors could be lost or corrupted without rendering any data unrecoverable. ("Lost" is an easier case; it's easier to correct bits you know you don't have than bits you have but which you might have wrong.) For example, if you take (say) 13 sectors of 256 bytes each and think of them as an array of 13 by 2048 bits, you can then apply ECC along the 13-bit dimension, adding 5 error-correction bits, to get 18 sectors of 256 bytes each, with the ability to correct any N sectors that are wrong, for some value of N (which I'm not a good enough coding theorist to know, but I'd guess is around 4 to 6). Repeat for each track and you've lost 5/18 of your space but you've got the ability to lose up to N sectors per track without losing any data. More complex schemes can spread data out even more.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Fri Oct 7 23:34:38 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <20051007213649.19684c52.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051008043439.24248.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Scott Stevens wrote: > They were too > expensive (always in the five figures, usually the > mid five figures) those same analyzers are about $50 on ebay now __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 23:51:09 2005 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:51:09 -0700 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <20051007214353.3c8368b4.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <0IO000ECGLUFSEG2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <200510071755190876.49F6E484@10.0.0.252> <20051007180424.Y49026@shell.lmi.net> <20051007214353.3c8368b4.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > > > > Actually, I am still slowly getting over my long painful struggle to get > two floppy drives enabled on a Dell Optiplex system. There's support > for a second floppy in the BIOS but it appears the hardware support is > entirely missing. I had to just do away with the 3-1/2" disk to get a > 5-1/4" disk installed in one of my (many, since I get them for < $5 all > kitted out with Pentium III processors) beloved (!!??!!) Optiplex boxes. > Was there THAT much savings in not including hardware support for two > floppies, DELL? Why not patch settings for the second drive out of the > BIOS so we don't pound our heads against the wall trying?? > > I'm curious about the comment about second drive support missing. I am curious why the addition of a proper multiheaded cable doesnt fix this? they actually dont drive the drive select in the cable? Just curious From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 8 00:04:38 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 23:04:38 -0600 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <0IO000J6CKYA16S1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IO000J6CKYA16S1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43475366.4050700@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >Good solid drive that is very flexible. I have a bunch I kept >as they cant be beat with a big stick. > > > Well that was true of the CP/M system I used too once; and since the stepper kept sticking every so often you did have to hit the drive with a big stick. Alas if you hit it too hard the z80? would reset and any work would be lost. :( >Allison > > Ben alias woodelf From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 8 00:42:58 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 01:42:58 -0400 Subject: Best OS/2 1.3 or 2.1 Machine References: Message-ID: <008801c5cbcb$240abbd0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 11:52 PM Subject: Re: Best OS/2 1.3 or 2.1 Machine > In a message dated 10/7/2005 6:40:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > cisin at xenosoft.com writes: > On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > > I was wondering since IBM produced OS/2 did any of their machines (PS/2 > > series maybe) run OS/2 better then clones or other companies machines. I > > > OS/2 is a match made in heaven for the PS/2 computers. I've installed it on a > 9595 and it was the easiest install I ever did and I didn't have to go > looking for drivers either. > I just recently installed warp server for ebusiness on an IBM server 330 with > RAID and no problems there either. Runs fine with 64meg! I even bought the > remote management card for it and got that running with an old version of > netfinity for OS/2 I thankfully kept. I can remotely admin the machine if I want. I > could not find a video driver for the integrated CL video card and ended up > installed a PCI trident video card since I could find a driver for it. The IBM > support site is totally USELESS for finding anything for older machines now. I > could not find any support files for this 8640-ES2 server. For OS/2 drivers, > google on OS/2 device driver pak online and you will find what you need. The 9595 would be a top of the line server correct? I was wondering how well the workstations got along with OS/2. Why do I get the impression that few people today collect and run vintage OS/2 hardware and software? From oldgeek at thegeekslair.org Fri Oct 7 23:06:10 2005 From: oldgeek at thegeekslair.org (Old Sid) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 23:06:10 -0500 Subject: HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay Message-ID: <434745B2.1070505@thegeekslair.org> Oh great almighty screaming gort! Some major HP gear with 'buy it now' prices... Items 8702744737 8702428795 5244771878 From ygehrich at yahoo.com Fri Oct 7 18:08:51 2005 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 19:08:51 -0400 Subject: CBM 1541 to PC Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20051007190507.042629f0@ehrich.com> Does anybody know anything about this or have experience with it or other ways to access a 1541 from a PC ... XM1541 System ... ... Connects your WINDOWS PC to a Commodore 1541 ... From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 01:16:58 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 23:16:58 -0700 Subject: Best OS/2 1.3 or 2.1 Machine In-Reply-To: <008801c5cbcb$240abbd0$0500fea9@game> References: <008801c5cbcb$240abbd0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <200510072316580709.4B1D5AD1@10.0.0.252> On 10/8/2005 at 1:42 AM Teo Zenios wrote: >OS/2. Why do I get the impression that few >people today collect and run vintage OS/2 hardware and software? I still have my developer's kit for OS/2 1.3 and it's quite a pile of paper and diskettes. Wonderful documentation, compared to other contemporary x86 operating systems and pretty stable at that. I've run a couple of versions of Warp--they're okay. I suppose a comparable question might be "Why doesn't anyone collect and run vintage Windows 3.1 software?" Just can't get excited about it, I guess. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 01:34:41 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 23:34:41 -0700 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: References: <0IO000ECGLUFSEG2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <200510071755190876.49F6E484@10.0.0.252> <20051007180424.Y49026@shell.lmi.net> <20051007214353.3c8368b4.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200510072334410199.4B2D90F7@10.0.0.252> On 10/7/2005 at 9:51 PM jim stephens wrote: >> I'm curious about the comment about second drive support missing. I >am curious why the addition of a proper multiheaded cable doesnt >fix this? > >they actually dont drive the drive select in the cable? > >Just curious I don't believe so--Dell sells the Optiplex floppy with a formed cable as a single unit. Here's a photo: http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/images/products/large/340-8737.jpg While the second floppy select probably exists on some pin in the support chipset, I don't think that Dell ever intended that more than one floppy would be used and so probably never wired the header for it. I suppose one could install an IDE LS120 as a second drive or just plug in one of those brain-dead USB drives (I've seen a USB driver for DOS somewhere). Cheers, Chuck From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Oct 8 02:52:19 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 08:52:19 +0100 Subject: uk.comp.vintage In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 08 Oct 2005 00:27:18 BST." <43470456.1070307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200510080752.IAA08612@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > > I've not seen anyone else mention it, so for the other UK folks on the > list it's worth mentioning that this newsgroup has shown up. > > So far low-traffic, and seems to be mainly 8-bit fans who are into > games, but it might be worth keeping an eye on. I mentioned there that > we're all over here on classiccmp :-) Thanks for that, I had heard somone was trying to start it up. And don't forget a lot of us BOFs hang out in alt.folklore.computers, which does have a tendency to get *way* off topic :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Oct 8 03:16:21 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 10:16:21 +0200 Subject: Manuals available : Message-ID: I have available the folllowing manuals : Plessey PM80 Core Memory manual ( Omnibus core mem boards,, extensive description ) Applied Digital Data Systems "How to use the Consul 520" (Description of an ascii terminal) Calcomp 836 Technische beschreibung ( Manual for early Calcomp plotter, in German ) Calcomp Pen and Paper user guide. DEC OS8 mark sense batch user guide Control Data NOS2 reference set volume 3 "System commands" (For CDC cyber machines) Terms : Free , you pay P&P from Zurich Switzerland. In case of multiple requests i will decide in an utterly undemocrating way who gets what. Jos Dreesen From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 8 03:14:35 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 01:14:35 -0700 Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted References: <200510071629.JAA10104@clulw009.amd.com> <20051007192409.0a4e0913.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43477FEC.1FD4EB1E@cs.ubc.ca> Scott Stevens wrote: > Or you can use the "Poor Man's Logic Analyzer" which is a pair of D/A > converters hooked to address/data lines and plugged into the appropriate > address lines. You hook the outputs of the DACs into an oscilloscope > configured as an X/Y display and adjust gain so that it makes a grid on > the screen. It shows you dynamically where the software is branching in > the memory map. If you use this method regularly, it can be a > 'signature analyzer' of sorts. You'll get to know kind of dynamic > display to expect and/or you can even write short diagnostic programs to > 'draw' specific patterns on the display. ... Such displays originated back in the late-'40s/early-'50s with processors using CRT-storage-tube memory systems. The digital-address-to-analog-deflection circuits were already there for the storage-tubes, they simply had to be brought out to a monitor tube. I recall reading the SWAC had such a display on one of the two CRTs at the console. Whirlwind might/could have had as well. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 8 03:15:30 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 01:15:30 -0700 Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted References: <200510071629.JAA10104@clulw009.amd.com> <20051007213649.19684c52.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43478023.E6723F7B@cs.ubc.ca> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > What is it with logic analyzers. Why not just an > > > oscilloscope. In most cases, one can be farther along > > > with an 'oscope in finding what is wrong by the > > > time one can get an analyzer connected and setup. > > > Am I alone here or does everyone else think that an > > > analyzer is the ultimate tool? To be perhaps overly general but a distinction I think worth making: Logic analysers are intended to analyse logic, not electronics. The systems we deal with are logic systems implemented in electronics, when a functioning system develops problems it's the electronics which have failed (granted that some problems manifest themselves in such a way as be to observable as pure logic failures). I like an o'scope for analysis, it shows you analog characteristics of signals .. those characteristics still matter. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 8 03:22:29 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 01:22:29 -0700 Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? Message-ID: <434781C6.DDE5D717@cs.ubc.ca> So I was listenting to a radio play (a police investigation/drama) on the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corp.) today in which the plot centred around recovering data (the offshore bank account #, how cliche) from the dead guy's ancient Apple II/e. (The dead guy was apparently like a lot of people on this list: still used an old machine for his main/daily computing ...just so you all know you're actually getting portrayal in the popular arts :/ ) Well, that went by me OK, then they threw in the plot twist: the guy wasn't using the standard OS, he was using an oddball system which was going to make the data recovery more problematic, that system being CP/M. At this point my pedantic-critic bells went off. So somebody either confirm my pedanticism or show me up as the ignorant one: nobody ever bothered to rewrite CP/M (which to my understanding was all targeted to Intel procs) for the Apple II did they? ... maybe the scriptwriting 'computing consultant' figured it would be a good inside joke, ... maybe it's somebody on this list! From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Oct 8 05:19:11 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 03:19:11 -0700 Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <434781C6.DDE5D717@cs.ubc.ca> References: <434781C6.DDE5D717@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <43479D1F.3040809@msm.umr.edu> Brent Hilpert wrote: > > >the dead guy's ancient >Apple II/e. > > So somebody either confirm my pedanticism or >show me up as the ignorant one: nobody ever bothered to rewrite CP/M (which to >my understanding was all targeted to Intel procs) for the Apple II did they? > >... maybe the scriptwriting 'computing consultant' figured it would be a good >inside joke, ... maybe it's somebody on this list! > > > > There of course the card made for the apple ][ which booted and ran cpm. I think there was (is) an equivalent for the 2/e. actually this version is not that uncommon. main problem was getting data from other cpm's of the time (early 80's) to this system. If you ran it w/o 80 column support, the 40 column video of the apple 2 was very annoying. I would assume there would be dbase or some spreadsheet program he could be using to keep data. Also the 5 1/4 disks would be much better than the original cpm 8" for a traveler. Also very possibly, a 2/e would 3 1/2 disks and CP/M data on them. I think the 3 1/2" disks might be easier to recover data from, since it might have been hooked up thru a "real" floppy controller, rather than apples annoying 5 1/4 system. The format from that controller was bizarre enough I don't know if there was any way to read them on the IBM PC's disks. Maybe something like the copy 2 option board might read the data and store it. does 22/disk read those? jim From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Oct 8 06:09:08 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 07:09:08 -0400 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? Message-ID: <20051008110907.FPHY5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> I'm curious about the comment about second drive support missing. I >am curious why the addition of a proper multiheaded cable doesnt >fix this? > >they actually dont drive the drive select in the cable? More and more machines are showing up without physical support (ie: a select) for drive B: ... I have two Intel P3 board which do not drive the B: select (which is very annoying since these are two of the best systems for handling oddball formats with Imagedisk). Floppy drives are disappearing completely from some new machines, and I doubt it will be long before the controller disappears along with them (if it hasn't started already). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Oct 8 07:01:08 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 05:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CBM 1541 to PC In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051007190507.042629f0@ehrich.com> from Gene Ehrich at "Oct 7, 5 07:08:51 pm" Message-ID: <200510081201.FAA12094@floodgap.com> > Does anybody know anything about this or have experience with it or > other ways to access a 1541 from a PC This involves connecting the PC's parallel port to a 1541 disk drive using a special conversion cable. The XM1541 is the newest of this series of cables going back to the venerable X1541; there's also XA1541 and XE1541 cables depending on the application. Virtually all are supported by a DOS program called the Star Commander, used for transferring disk images, and another called 64HDD that allows the PC to appear as a giant disk drive to the Commodore. http://sta.c64.org/ http://www.64hdd.com/ -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Backup not found. Abort, Retry, Vomit, Panic, Write Resume File? ----------- From pechter at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 07:21:18 2005 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 08:21:18 -0400 Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <434781C6.DDE5D717@cs.ubc.ca> References: <434781C6.DDE5D717@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4347B9BE.1030701@gmail.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: >So I was listenting to a radio play (a police investigation/drama) on the CBC >(Canadian Broadcasting Corp.) today in which the plot centred around recovering >data (the offshore bank account #, how cliche) from the dead guy's ancient >Apple II/e. > >(The dead guy was apparently like a lot of people on this list: still used an >old machine for his main/daily computing ...just so you all know you're >actually getting portrayal in the popular arts :/ ) > >Well, that went by me OK, then they threw in the plot twist: the guy wasn't >using the standard OS, he was using an oddball system which was going to make >the data recovery more problematic, that system being CP/M. At this point my >pedantic-critic bells went off. So somebody either confirm my pedanticism or >show me up as the ignorant one: nobody ever bothered to rewrite CP/M (which to >my understanding was all targeted to Intel procs) for the Apple II did they? > >... maybe the scriptwriting 'computing consultant' figured it would be a good >inside joke, ... maybe it's somebody on this list! > > > Actually, the CP/M card with a Zilog Z80 was not an uncommon Apple II option. There were a couple of vendors. Some cards had there own memory so you could get a full CP/M system with the 64k maximum memory http://vintageware.orcon.net.nz/apple2/cpm.html shows one version of this. From jim at jkearney.com Sat Oct 8 08:24:35 2005 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 09:24:35 -0400 Subject: MIL MOD8 parts/software/information References: <20051008033900.VUW5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <02a401c5cc0b$a02e90c0$0500a8c0@jkearney.com> Dave, You might try contacting Zbigniew Stachniak at York University. He's the curator of a small museum specializing in Canadian computers and I know he has a some amount of MOD8 / Microsystems International equipment and documentation. > Any parts, documentation or software for this machine would be most > welcome - being keenly interested in Canadian vintage computers and > their history, I would very much like to see this running someday. There was a guy on eBay who had a stock of NOS MF8008's, but I don't remember his handle. I think it was the same guy who has been selling these mounted displays of the various Intel processor there occasionally. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Oct 8 08:49:28 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 08:49:28 -0500 Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <20051008043439.24248.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051007213649.19684c52.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051008043439.24248.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051008084928.790a8077.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:34:38 -0700 (PDT) steve wrote: > > > --- Scott Stevens wrote: > > > > > They were too > > expensive (always in the five figures, usually the > > mid five figures) > > those same analyzers are about $50 on ebay now > > Yes. $50 for the analyzer, which is too high a price without the pods, then you spend 3 years and ultimately another $300 finding the pods. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 8 08:45:47 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 09:45:47 -0400 Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? Message-ID: <0IO100ECLNJYGWJ0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP/M on an Apple II ? > From: jim stephens > Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 03:19:11 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> >> > >>the dead guy's ancient >>Apple II/e. >> >> So somebody either confirm my pedanticism or >>show me up as the ignorant one: nobody ever bothered to rewrite CP/M (which to >>my understanding was all targeted to Intel procs) for the Apple II did they? >> >>... maybe the scriptwriting 'computing consultant' figured it would be a good >>inside joke, ... maybe it's somebody on this list! >> >> >> >> >There of course the card made for the apple ][ which booted and ran >cpm. I think there was (is) >an equivalent for the 2/e. There were a number of Z80 cards for the Apple ][ for the purpose of running cpm and compatable apps. >actually this version is not that uncommon. main problem was getting >data from other cpm's of the >time (early 80's) to this system. If you ran it w/o 80 column support, >the 40 column video of the apple 2 was very annoying. There was also an 80 column card and with a serial card there were two simple problems to move data from other CP/M systems (UP and DOWN). >I would assume there would be dbase or some spreadsheet program he could >be using to keep >data. Also the 5 1/4 disks would be much better than the original cpm >8" for a traveler. Dbase was available for Apple as both native (6502) and CP/M (8080/z80) along with multiplan. Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Oct 8 08:58:11 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 08:58:11 -0500 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <200510072334410199.4B2D90F7@10.0.0.252> References: <0IO000ECGLUFSEG2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <200510071755190876.49F6E484@10.0.0.252> <20051007180424.Y49026@shell.lmi.net> <20051007214353.3c8368b4.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510072334410199.4B2D90F7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051008085811.58dfb80f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 23:34:41 -0700 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 10/7/2005 at 9:51 PM jim stephens wrote: > > >> I'm curious about the comment about second drive support missing. I > >am curious why the addition of a proper multiheaded cable doesnt > >fix this? > > > >they actually dont drive the drive select in the cable? > > > >Just curious > > I don't believe so--Dell sells the Optiplex floppy with a formed cable > as a single unit. Here's a photo: > > http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/images/products/large/340-8737.jpg > > While the second floppy select probably exists on some pin in the > support chipset, I don't think that Dell ever intended that more than > one floppy would be used and so probably never wired the header for > it. > I can say semi-definitively that something serious is missing in the logic. I haven't probed into the signals, but a second drive installed on a connector crimped on before the twist at the end is found by the BIOS and appears as a device in 'Windows Explorer' but does NOT work. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 8 09:35:53 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 15:35:53 +0100 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <20051007212549.3a6035ad.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051007002404.4f27c291.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051007212549.3a6035ad.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4347D949.9020800@yahoo.co.uk> Scott Stevens wrote: > On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:40:25 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > >>I've pointed out several tinms here that the first disks I bought for >>my TRS-80 Model 1 cost me \pounds 5.00 _each_ (not a box of 10 or >>anything like that).. That mackine put 88K on each disk (single sided, >>35 cylinders, FM (single desnity)). Point is, those disks are still >>readable 20 years later. >> >>I would like to be able to pay a reasonable amount -- say \pounds 5.00 >>to \pounds 10.00 for a 3.5" disk with the same quality level. Because >>my data is worth a lot more than that. >> > > > Maybe what's needed is a lower density format and/or a redundant > filesystem using the current media. Surely a redundant filesystem or > lower density encoding scheme that only tried to fit 88K on a 3-1/2" HD > floppy diskette would succeed in having MUCH greater longetivity. I'm not so sure - I seem to find that 3.5" floppies bought today only handle a few read/write cycles before they die, whereas floppies from back in the disks' heyday are *much* more reliable. There seems to have been a drop in the quality of the physical media itself over time. Funnily enough, storage quality seems to have got *worse* over time. CDs, DVDs and modern hard drives all seem piss-poor when it comes to reliability for the amount of data they're expected to handle. Back in the day you could write your few KB of spreadsheet to a floppy and know that it'd almost certainly be OK. These days you write your movie (or whatever) to a CD and it's a totally lottery whether you can read it back again a month or two later, or whether it'll work on a different drive. Maybe there is some sense in all these USB storage devices (much as I dislike USB). At least there are no moving parts or optical shenanigans to go wrong, so if data written to such a device verifies it presumably should be good for subsequent reads... cheers Jules From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sat Oct 8 09:48:25 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 09:48:25 -0500 Subject: ZEDA model 580 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <1127956597.20410.42.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <200510081458.j98Ew47S086500@keith.ezwind.net> Interesting looking CPM system on eBay. On the left coast of the USA. Has an interesting story with it. item # 8706303939 Gil From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 8 09:48:47 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 10:48:47 -0400 Subject: TEC FD-50x drives - known issues? Message-ID: <0IO100LCOQGYVB40@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: TEC FD-50x drives - known issues? > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 23:38:55 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Hi Guys, > >I've been trying to get the drives from a Nabu Cable PC working >for the museum in Toronto who wants to put a working system on >display... > >The drives are TEC FD-501, single-sided DD drives. > >Some time ago I posted a request for technical information on the >TEC FD-503 drives in one of my Morrows, because one of them had >failed - the 501 is the same drive, same board, just without the >top head and connector/components on the board. --------------snip---------- - A pair of working FD-501 (or FD-503) drives which I could swap > the faceplates with to closely aproximate the "original" drives. > >- Any DD 5.25" drives which will fit. Only need single sided, but > double-sided will work. With the drive sitting on the table facing > you (connectors at rear), the data connector must be in the left > rear corner with pin2 on top, closest to the centerline of the > drive. Well some comments. I used to have a lot of them, most all ahve died. I regard that particular drive as junk. Never tried to troubleshoot any and it appears to be in the read or write logic (they select, spin, light the light but no data). For most systems better working drives were easy to fit so no concern was given. The size problem.. I've encountered it with NS* Horizon and Advantage. However I put FD55BVs in the NS* after moving the rectifier as I prefer them for reliability. I found a few PC 360k drives (48tpi) marked Newtronics D503 which are Mitsumi drives that seem ok and are the shorter length (7-3/8"). They look like the TEC drives but not quite. I have toshiba, FD55xx(B, E, F and Gs) and they are the same length. Older 286/386 PCs are the source of many of the TEC and mitsumi drives. Allison From allain at panix.com Sat Oct 8 10:12:15 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 11:12:15 -0400 Subject: HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay References: <434745B2.1070505@thegeekslair.org> Message-ID: <013301c5cc1a$ab6eaba0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Items 8702744737, 8702428795, 5244771878 The great news is that Gold Snipper may have "evolved" to the point where here he is neither snipping nor parting out some seriously great gold equipment. The HP boards of that era were real showpieces. I have one board from one of these computers ( as with http://gold-snipper.com/ebay/hp21s_6a.jpg ) and it is ridiculously over-engineered, IE gilded. Slight bad news that he's set so high a price. Let's hope some lurkers here can affort this. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8702744737 John A. no affiliation with, etc... From vrs at msn.com Sat Oct 8 10:19:18 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 08:19:18 -0700 Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted References: <20051007213649.19684c52.chenmel@earthlink.net><20051008043439.24248.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> <20051008084928.790a8077.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: From: "Scott Stevens" > steve wrote: > > those same analyzers are about $50 on ebay now > > Yes. $50 for the analyzer, which is too high a price without the pods, > then you spend 3 years and ultimately another $300 finding the pods. I got mine on eBay. It wasn't quite as easy as Steve implied, nor as hard as Scott implied. For about $200 or so, I got a pair of logic analyzers, a 1630g and a 1630d. Each has a full set of pods, but an incomplete set of grabber-adapters, so between them I have more than one complete set of pods and adapters. Plus, I can decide whether I want the better asynch stuff on the 1630d, or the higher number of inputs on the 1630g :-). (Or I could put one of them back out on eBay and recoup some of my $$. That would contribute to the problem Scott is talking about, though.) It took me perhaps a month of watching auctions (and getting outbid) before I got what I needed. Scott is correct that there is a lot of stuff on eBay that isn't worth much, because the hard-to-find bits have been removed. Oh, and I have a lead set here that doesn't fit the 1630 series. Anyone need a set of Gould grabber adapter clips :-)? Vince From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 8 10:28:31 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 11:28:31 -0400 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: <0IO100EZ7SB5SEB4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 15:35:53 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Scott Stevens wrote: > >I'm not so sure - I seem to find that 3.5" floppies bought today only >handle a few read/write cycles before they die, whereas floppies from >back in the disks' heyday are *much* more reliable. There seems to have >been a drop in the quality of the physical media itself over time. there has been. However I ran into this problem in a work situation and EVERY failed disk had a radial scratch at teh directory track. So I checked the drives and guess what. The heads had a nasty buildup of oxide. After cleaning new media would last till the problem occured again due to same cause. Some sleuthing found this. In every case the drive was lightly used, maybe once every few days. The inside of the systems were filled with dust and lint. The airpath was usualy PC suck in blow out the back and unfiltered. Changing the direction of the fan, adding a filter and cleaning the dust and lint made the problem go away. Seems one of the paths for air going in was through the floppy drive despite the door and the dust and lint would build up and make the head a good abrasive. This fix reduced the media failure rate for maybe one or two uses to months of reuses. >Funnily enough, storage quality seems to have got *worse* over time. >CDs, DVDs and modern hard drives all seem piss-poor when it comes to Thre are two problems. Media changes for faster writers and also plain poor quality. I've seen worng media for the writer in use give poor results. > >Maybe there is some sense in all these USB storage devices (much as I >dislike USB). At least there are no moving parts or optical shenanigans >to go wrong, so if data written to such a device verifies it presumably >should be good for subsequent reads... The USB flash devices are neat, relaible and can die completely unexpectedly. I friend lost 3-400mb of stuff on one when it just quit after a year of use. Fortunatly it was used for a transfer for backup between non-networked systems. Redundancy: With media and drive being cheap I have no qualms using a 1GB drive as removable media be it SCSI or IDE. Same for smaller or larger stuff. In the IDE arena I use a Parallel to IDE adaptor to utilize a bunch of 200-500mb drives as bulk store, install disks and working backups. Same thing with SCSI drives, I must have near 10 RZ56 (680mb 5" full size SCSI) and those not in systems have copies of those in systems. The safest backup is multiple backups on multiple medias. Here I use two systems where the system has two drives (non raid) and the nominal D: is for storage as any winders messups generally only munges drive C:. then there is a slow p90 with BIG SCSI disks playing catch for backup. Add to that floppies and CDroms(multiple copies) it would take a serious disaster to make the data and applications install sets a total loss. This while PC centric is not limited to PC only, I do same for CP/M via multiple systems and even use the PC systems to save CP/M stuff via emulator then there are the VAX backups. Layers of layers. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 8 10:38:01 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 08:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <20051007212132.478269f5.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051007002404.4f27c291.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051007212132.478269f5.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051008083258.J79842@shell.lmi.net> > > > data in a smaller area. The highest density 8" media I ever had was > > > DSDD, or 720K on the big 8" surface. That's a LOT larger disk and > > > hence a much > > It was actually closer to 1.2M. In fact the 1.2M IBM PC/AT format is > > almost exactly the same as a standard 8" format (it's the same data > > rate, same rotational speed, etc), the main difference being that the > > 8" drive has 77 cylinders, the 5.25" drive 80. On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > I was pretty keen on the drive space available to me back when I was > running my BigBoard system (Xerox 820 clone) with two DSDD 8" drives. I > am almost certain the formatted capacity with CP/M was 720K with those > drives. I remember it so distinctly because when I 'upgraded' to a > PC-XT clone, I was suddenly downsized to 360K per disk, exactly half the > space. Is it possible that the 1.2M capacity is like the 'advertized' > 2M capacity that 3-1/2" 1.44 floppies sometimes have printed on them? > Meaning, is that the raw unformatted capacity of the drive? NO. The unformatted capacity is about 1.6M. Each track (77 tracks per side * 2 sides) can hold about 8 sectors of 1024 bytes each, or about 15 sectors of 512 bytes, or about 28 sectors of 256 bytes. The ONLY difference in format between a DSDD 8" drive and a "1.2M" 5.25 (which were originally created specifically as a drop in replacement for 8"!) is: 77 tracks per side on 8" V 80 tracks on "1.2M" 5.25" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 8 10:45:30 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 08:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <434781C6.DDE5D717@cs.ubc.ca> References: <434781C6.DDE5D717@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20051008084343.B79842@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Brent Hilpert wrote: > show me up as the ignorant one: nobody ever bothered to rewrite CP/M (which to > my understanding was all targeted to Intel procs) for the Apple II did they? Microsoft "SoftCard". Z80 co-processor card for Apple ][, bundled with CP/M. At one point, there was a claim that 20% of Apple ]['s had one! From jcwren at jcwren.com Sat Oct 8 10:53:32 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 11:53:32 -0400 Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <20051008084343.B79842@shell.lmi.net> References: <434781C6.DDE5D717@cs.ubc.ca> <20051008084343.B79842@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4347EB7C.3010805@jcwren.com> Digital Research had one also, the CP/M Gold Card. 192K of memory, 4Mhz Z80, etc. --jc Fred Cisin wrote: >On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > >>show me up as the ignorant one: nobody ever bothered to rewrite CP/M (which to >>my understanding was all targeted to Intel procs) for the Apple II did they? >> >> > >Microsoft "SoftCard". >Z80 co-processor card for Apple ][, bundled with CP/M. >At one point, there was a claim that 20% of Apple ]['s had one! > > > > > > From vrs at msn.com Sat Oct 8 10:56:38 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 08:56:38 -0700 Subject: HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay References: <434745B2.1070505@thegeekslair.org> <013301c5cc1a$ab6eaba0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: > The great news is that Gold Snipper may have "evolved" to the point > where here he is neither snipping nor parting out some seriously great > gold equipment. I've met him, and he doesn't seem the kind to destroy rare stuff. Now if he's got a bunch of something, maybe. He seems willing to store stuff for a *long* time, waiting for a buyer. > I have one board from one of these computers > ( as with http://gold-snipper.com/ebay/hp21s_6a.jpg ) and it is ridiculously > over-engineered, IE gilded. > Slight bad news that he's set so high a price. Let's hope some lurkers here > can affort this. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8702744737 Well, I suppose it is reasonable for him to ask for something over scrap :-). (Are there 6 ounces of gold in there? I wouldn't think anywhere near it, but maybe they overdid it on the gilding :-).) Vince From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 8 11:14:37 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 10:14:37 -0600 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <20051008110907.FPHY5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20051008110907.FPHY5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <4347F06D.1090102@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>>I'm curious about the comment about second drive support missing. I >>> >>> >>am curious why the addition of a proper multiheaded cable doesnt >>fix this? >> >>they actually dont drive the drive select in the cable? >> >> > >More and more machines are showing up without physical support (ie: >a select) for drive B: ... I have two Intel P3 board which do not >drive the B: select (which is very annoying since these are two of >the best systems for handling oddball formats with Imagedisk). > >Floppy drives are disappearing completely from some new machines, >and I doubt it will be long before the controller disappears along >with them (if it hasn't started already). > > > That I suspect will still be built into the support chips since it will be too much trouble to remove it. Floppies are now a extra option -- I had to have new computer built with one. Everybody is going to R/W DVD's now.. >Regards, >Dave > > Ben alias woodelf PS, R/W DVD's don't seem reliable for storage to me -- look how hard it is for CD's to write well. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 8 11:18:32 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 09:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <20051007212549.3a6035ad.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051007002404.4f27c291.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051007212549.3a6035ad.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051008090801.T79842@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Maybe what's needed is a lower density format and/or a redundant > filesystem using the current media. Surely a redundant filesystem or > lower density encoding scheme that only tried to fit 88K on a 3-1/2" HD > floppy diskette would succeed in having MUCH greater longetivity. Maybe > there's a 'market' for something like that, i.e. a disk format where > data is written redundantly on ten zones of the drive or something. It > really should be mostly a software problem. Redundant filesystems can help substantially with localized damage. Unfortunately, they won't help in cases where the entire disk craps out. FAT filesystems have two copies of the F.A.T. But,... 1) What is the worst possible place to put the second copy? (adjacent to the first) 2) For a redundant filesystem to achieve its advantages, there must be software that can recognize problems, and switch to alternate copies. There actually exist some floppy R.A.I.D. implementations! Depending on configuration, that could provide full recoverability, if only one disk fails at a time. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 11:30:05 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 09:30:05 -0700 Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <43479D1F.3040809@msm.umr.edu> References: <434781C6.DDE5D717@cs.ubc.ca> <43479D1F.3040809@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200510080930050001.4D4EB087@10.0.0.252> >The format from that controller was bizarre enough I don't know if there >was any way >to read them on the IBM PC's disks. Maybe something like the copy 2 >option board >might read the data and store it. does 22/disk read those? 22Disk does not handle them. Internally here, we use an early Microsolutions Match Point card in an old PC XT with a special version of Uniform to handle Apple II CP/M transfers. The Match Point also comes with some tools to handle Apple DOS. The MP will not work in anything much faster than an XT. I believe that there was another product called "Blue Lightning" or some such to handle those diskettes, but I've never run into one. The Apple II recording format is a gutless wonder (like Apple II video), heavily using the CPU to read and write disks--and very dependent on the 2 microsecond CPU clock. The diskette controller is really nothing more than a 6309 ROM, a 74LS323 shift register that forms a state machine, a 74LS259 latch for drive control and a l and a little glue. The disk controller card also contains a 6309 boot ROM In the days when an LSI floppy controller OEM-ed out at $40-50, it was an interesting low-cost solution. The data representation is essentially a sort of group code--and there were two versions of this code--DOS 3.2 (5/8) and DOS 3.3 (6/8). A 3.2 disk contains 13 256 byte sectors per track; a 3.3, 16. The big weakness in the Apple II disk was the lack of really good error checking. A simple one-byte arithmetic checksum was used in lieu of a CRC and I've personally experienced corrupted data flying by without being diagnosed. I believe that the Apple /// subsumed much of the Disk II controller into a single LSI IC, named the IWM (Integrated Woz Machine) and that some of that logic was carried into the early Macs. If you're looking for a good no-nonsense book on the innards of the IIe, try to find Jim Sather's book "Understanding the Apple IIe" (Quality Software). Long OOP, it's one of the better references. I believe that the Option Board will copy Apple II diskettes, but won't deciper them. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 8 11:37:20 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 09:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adding another floppy (Was: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <200510072334410199.4B2D90F7@10.0.0.252> References: <0IO000ECGLUFSEG2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <200510071755190876.49F6E484@10.0.0.252> <20051007180424.Y49026@shell.lmi.net> <20051007214353.3c8368b4.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510072334410199.4B2D90F7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051008092929.W79842@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I suppose one could install an IDE LS120 as a second drive or just plug in one of those brain-dead USB drives (I've seen a USB driver for DOS somewhere). ... or a SCSI "Floptical" (also handles 1.4M), or MicroSolutions "Backpack" external parallel port floppy (my 2.8m one has been pretty reliable), or a second floppy controller (at an alternate address if you can't fully disable the internal one), or a manual toggle switch on the drive select lines (OK for drives that you don't use often, such as 3" or 3.25"), there were software controlled drive select switches available for adding some of the floppy port tape drives - some of those CAN be used to switch additional floppies. NOTE: MS-DOS is not happy about attempts to have more than 26 drive letters (although at least one earlier version supported up to 63) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 8 11:46:53 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 09:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <200510080930050001.4D4EB087@10.0.0.252> References: <434781C6.DDE5D717@cs.ubc.ca> <43479D1F.3040809@msm.umr.edu> <200510080930050001.4D4EB087@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051008094028.A79842@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 22Disk does not handle them. Internally here, we use an early > Microsolutions Match Point card in an old PC XT with a special version > of Uniform to handle Apple II CP/M transfers. The Match Point also > comes with some tools to handle Apple DOS. The MP will not work in > anything much faster than an XT. I believe that there was another > product called "Blue Lightning" or some such to handle those diskettes, > but I've never run into one. I had a board called "Blue Lightning", which was a Z80 board for PC. Did the Quadlink and/or Trackstar 128 cable to Apple drives? I did the filesystem software for "Apple Turnover" from Vertex. I handled Apple-DOS, Pro-DOs, Apple][ CP/M, and Apple][ Pascal disks. There are few, if any WORKING instances of that hardware. (and it wasn't very happy about TEAC drives!) > If you're looking for a good no-nonsense book on the innards of the IIe, > try to find Jim Sather's book "Understanding the Apple IIe" (Quality > Software). Long OOP, it's one of the better references. and "Beneath Apple DOS" has a reasonable beginner's explanation of GCR From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 8 11:50:09 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 10:50:09 -0600 Subject: Adding another floppy (Was: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <20051008092929.W79842@shell.lmi.net> References: <0IO000ECGLUFSEG2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <200510071755190876.49F6E484@10.0.0.252> <20051007180424.Y49026@shell.lmi.net> <20051007214353.3c8368b4.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510072334410199.4B2D90F7@10.0.0.252> <20051008092929.W79842@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4347F8C1.70704@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: >On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > >NOTE: MS-DOS is not happy about attempts to have more than 26 drive >letters (although at least one earlier version supported up to 63) > > > I could never figure why windows only expected 1 drive -- C: When I used dos the problem was pached DOS's to support more than 32 MEG of data. My gripe with windows it does not support back of the system, but only what it thinks you need backed up. DOS you could back up. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 8 11:55:24 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 09:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <43479D1F.3040809@msm.umr.edu> References: <434781C6.DDE5D717@cs.ubc.ca> <43479D1F.3040809@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20051008094914.L79842@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, jim stephens wrote: > I think the 3 1/2" disks might be easier to recover data from, since it > might have been hooked > up thru a "real" floppy controller, rather than apples annoying 5 1/4 > system. That would have made sense. Therefore, NO. > The format from that controller was bizarre enough I don't know if there > was any way > to read them on the IBM PC's disks. It is, of course, "impossible". But there are some amazingly ridiculous kludges, involving things such as switching drive select in mid read! (sorry, no single drive Dells :-) > Maybe something like the copy 2 > option board > might read the data and store it. does 22/disk read those? The option board hardware can do it, but Central Point actively did NOT want third party software written for it. Catweasel also can handle the hardware issue, but what software is available? There were half a dozen "flux-transition" boards that interrupted the cable between FDC and drive. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 12:01:01 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 10:01:01 -0700 Subject: Adding another floppy (Was: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <20051008092929.W79842@shell.lmi.net> References: <0IO000ECGLUFSEG2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <200510071755190876.49F6E484@10.0.0.252> <20051007180424.Y49026@shell.lmi.net> <20051007214353.3c8368b4.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510072334410199.4B2D90F7@10.0.0.252> <20051008092929.W79842@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510081001010109.4D6B02E0@10.0.0.252> On 10/8/2005 at 9:37 AM Fred Cisin wrote: >... or a SCSI "Floptical" (also handles 1.4M), >or MicroSolutions "Backpack" external parallel port floppy (my 2.8m one >has been pretty reliable), >or a second floppy controller (at an alternate address if you can't fully >disable the internal one), >or a manual toggle switch on the drive select lines (OK for drives that >you don't use often, such as 3" or 3.25"), >there were software controlled drive select switches available for adding >some of the floppy port tape drives - some of those CAN be used to switch >additional floppies. The moment you start talking about non-DOS OS support hings like the parallel-port drives and secondary controllers run into trouble with finding drivers to support them. The "flopticals" like the LS-120 on SCSI (or even an old Teac FD-235S SCSI floppy) have a problem in that they pretty much all assume 512 or 1024 byte sectors with very regular addressing (like every USB drive I've ever seen), so they can't be used for importing "foreign" media--and many DOS-based programs don't understand them at all. The current crop of Dell Optiplexes have no ISA slots at all, which makes any sort of add-in floppy controller a bit of a problem. Oddly, it may be cheapest and more expedient to simply trash the motherboard in the Dell, stripping off the CPU and RAM and refit the box with another maker's motherboard with full support (and an ISA slot or four). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 12:05:44 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 10:05:44 -0700 Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <20051008094028.A79842@shell.lmi.net> References: <434781C6.DDE5D717@cs.ubc.ca> <43479D1F.3040809@msm.umr.edu> <200510080930050001.4D4EB087@10.0.0.252> <20051008094028.A79842@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510081005440058.4D6F5422@10.0.0.252> On 10/8/2005 at 9:46 AM Fred Cisin wrote: >Did the Quadlink and/or Trackstar 128 cable to Apple drives? It's been so very long ago! I'll have to pull out one of my dogeared "PC Tech Journal" product directories from back then and see what's mentioned. Those PCTJ product guides are worth their weight in gold when trying to answer "what the heck is this thing?" sorts of questions. --Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 8 12:08:17 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 13:08:17 -0400 Subject: Adding another floppy / Message-ID: <0IO100EYTWXEGF31@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> pulling the thread further off.... One solution for the floppy problem in the dos/winders world is your run of the mill 486 board with ISA bus. They do not disallow much as it was easily done to install two floppy/ide/serial/parallel cards using all of the available port addresses that were nominally assigned. The result of that is a system with 4 floppies, 4 IDE drives and 4 serial ports and two parallel ports. The motherboard is later 486/DX66 with 24mb and ISA16 bus and a large (256k cache). I was lucky to find a large horizontal case that allowed for a lot of drives and 300W of power. So the result is a 3.5 (720/1.44 floppy), 5.25 (48tpi teac FD55BV) and 5.25 (96tpi teac fd55gfr) and two 3.5" IDE drives at 512mb, IDE CDrom each plus N2000 compatable NIC and a 1mb VGA video card. The box is still not full at this point. With this transfers from any to most is easy, it runs any OS I'd care to use and have on hand (DOS, W3.1, W95b, NT4[WS and server], Linux, OS/2warp3, DRI Concurrent dos386V3). Rather than futz with the latest and greatest hardware and software for doing stuff that is mostly routine and very nontaxing for a 486 and DOS this was the easiest solution. It's proven handy for more than a few tasks and having most needed hardware in the box it is a workhorse. Having at least 500mb per drive is enough for most OSs if not choked with apps and still plenty of space for storage. CDrom makes install easy and fast. The extra parallel port is handy with a kangaroo parallel port to IDE adaptor. The three floppies means nothing common is likely unreadable. It's also a respectably fast enough to run MYz80 CP/M/z80 emulator. That is handy for pulling stuff off CP/M disks and munging it or even development. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 8 12:10:49 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 13:10:49 -0400 Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? Message-ID: <0IO100JE0X1M15F4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP/M on an Apple II ? > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 09:46:53 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Did the Quadlink and/or Trackstar 128 cable to Apple drives? I have a trackstar 128 and it did all of the "Apple" disks. It also could access regular PC drives I understand. Strange beast for a non Apple user. Allison From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 8 12:14:44 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 13:14:44 -0400 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <200510081700.j98H0Ra4060102@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200510081714.j98HEcHI019892@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: "Each track (77 tracks per side * 2 sides) can hold about 8 sectors of 1024 bytes each, or about 15 sectors of 512 bytes, or about 28 sectors of 256 bytes." It's not a standard format, but it is actually possible to reliably get nine sectors of 1024 bytes on each track of a double-density 8" disk. I supported such a format in all of the operating systems that I wrote for the Zenith Z-100. It gives you 1,419,264 bytes of formatted storage per diskette. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 8 12:16:16 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 13:16:16 -0400 Subject: Adding another floppy (Was: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? Message-ID: <0IO100LS7XAQVKH0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Adding another floppy (Was: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? > From: woodelf > Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 10:50:09 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> >I could never figure why windows only expected 1 drive -- C: ??? winders defaults to C: but I've installed it as other. The gotcha is the default boot in many bios was C: is first hard drive and also default hard drive boot. >When I used dos the problem was pached DOS's to support >more than 32 MEG of data. My gripe with windows it does not >support back of the system, but only what it thinks you need >backed up. DOS you could back up. ??? using W95B I never had problems with backup (aka hackup and destroy) (is was an instal time option). Under win 3.1 There were both backup for dos and winders if properly installed (an option!). Allison From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 12:22:32 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 10:22:32 -0700 Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <200510080930050001.4D4EB087@10.0.0.252> References: <434781C6.DDE5D717@cs.ubc.ca> <43479D1F.3040809@msm.umr.edu> <200510080930050001.4D4EB087@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510081022320488.4D7EB746@10.0.0.252> An odd little story regarding the Match Point comes to mind. We'd tried to get hold of one in the PC AT era, after Microsolutions had discontinued it. We were repeatedly told by various people at Microsolutions that there were none left in stock and that they weren't about to revive production on an item that was touchy about drives and finicky about CPU speed. Until we ran into someone who worked for the US Postal Service. He said that the USPS had a contract with Microsolutions to furnish the cards and it was still in force. He gave us the name of a contact within MS and a "tell them that Joe sent you" secret message and we had a nice shrink-wrapped Match Point the next week. Incidentally, the Backpack drives suffer from the same sort of "we don't want to tell anyone about them" syndrome. Some years ago, we got a contract to supply a major medical equipment services company with external drives that would read NEC 9801-type floppies and could be used with the laptop PCs that their field engineers carried around with them. ISA cards were obviously out of the question and USB hadn't been invented yet. We looked into the Rancho Technologies parallel-floppy card, but found their technical support to be somewhere between bewildering and non-existent. So we sourced a bunch of Backpack drives, replacing the 24 MHz crystal inside with a 20 MHz one (it was cheaper than replacing the floppy with a 360 RPM model). Microsolutions was absolutely immovable in their refusal to supply technical information, so we reverse-engineered the thing and wrote our own driver. It's not a bad little box--the National 8477 FDC (765 type) is directly programmable, so it can be used to read and write a variety of formats. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 12:30:15 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 10:30:15 -0700 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <200510081714.j98HEcHI019892@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200510081714.j98HEcHI019892@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <200510081030150649.4D85C87A@10.0.0.252> On 10/8/2005 at 1:14 PM Barry Watzman wrote: >It's not a standard format, but it is actually possible to reliably get >nine >sectors of 1024 bytes on each track of a double-density 8" disk. I >supported such a format in all of the operating systems that I wrote for >the >Zenith Z-100. It gives you 1,419,264 bytes of formatted storage per >diskette. Shades of IBM XDF--and whatever the format that MS used briefly to pack about 1.7MB on a floppy--basically writing combinations of differently sized sectors on a track to use every last available byte. I think both IBM and MS would probably tell you that it wasn't worth the trouble. I think both companies ended up sending far more replacement sets of standard-format diskettes than they ever imagined. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 8 12:48:53 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 13:48:53 -0400 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: <0IO100EDVYT2GXB1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 10:30:15 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 10/8/2005 at 1:14 PM Barry Watzman wrote: > >>It's not a standard format, but it is actually possible to reliably get >>nine sectors of 1024 bytes on each track of a double-density 8" disk. I >>supported such a format in all of the operating systems that I wrote for >>the Zenith Z-100. It gives you 1,419,264 bytes of formatted storage per >>diskette. That was not a particulary strange format, I'd seen it on a Morrow system and the 765 even supported it. Here's an oddball. 28sectors by 128 bytes single density 8". Seems with minor programming differnces of the 1771 for smaller gaps you could end up with enough space at the end of a track for 2 more sectors or nearly 20k per disk. I had always found that 8" at 256k per side (128/26) single density was a good medium and for DD 512k per side and DDDS at 1mb was clean and easy to live with. The CP/M world had an oddity that people using it may have noticed. At 256k (241k useable) was near the minimum for not feeling terribly cramped. Smaller was painful and always needed more drives and once you hit 512k or bigger life got easier. I found that for 8" DSDD (1meg) and two drives was a good working environment for serious work. When I started with 5.25 floppies life got hard (80k perdisk!) and didn't improve till 320/360k (40track 2sDD). The prefered when I build a CP/M system with floppies these days is not less than 720/780k (either 3.5" or 96tpi 5.25 DSDD) or the minimum equivelent in semiconductor (eeprom,flash or battery backedRAM). Hope this sorta give a clue why people in the CP/M space tended to push for more space per disk. Keep in mind that hard disks and controllers were expensive even past the mid 80s. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 8 12:58:17 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 10:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <200510081030150649.4D85C87A@10.0.0.252> References: <200510081714.j98HEcHI019892@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <200510081030150649.4D85C87A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051008105735.T79842@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Shades of IBM XDF--and whatever the format that MS used briefly to pack > about 1.7MB on a floppy--basically writing combinations of differently I think that Microsoft called theirs "DMF" From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sat Oct 8 13:15:20 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 20:15:20 +0200 Subject: Adding another floppy / References: <0IO100EYTWXEGF31@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <003101c5cc34$3eebbe90$2101a8c0@finans> Fra: "Allison" > pulling the thread further off.... > > > Rather than futz with the latest and greatest hardware and software > for doing stuff that is mostly routine and very nontaxing for a 486 > and DOS this was the easiest solution. It's proven handy for more than > a few tasks and having most needed hardware in the box it is a workhorse. > Having at least 500mb per drive is enough for most OSs if not choked with > apps and still plenty of space for storage. CDrom makes install easy and > fast. Agreed. I have two production systems in my conversion shop; the quickest one is a 1 GHz machine with 2 or 3 EISA slots for special controllers. For floppies, QIC80 and Rhomat tapes, I use a 486/33. QIC80 and Rhomat are adressed as drive B:, with a nice switch between the tapes and the floppy cabel. You can see them at http://www.farumdata.dk/uk/enserv.asp Nico From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Oct 8 13:51:15 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 13:51:15 -0500 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <20051008105735.T79842@shell.lmi.net> References: <200510081714.j98HEcHI019892@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <200510081030150649.4D85C87A@10.0.0.252> <20051008105735.T79842@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20051008135115.5e6799fb.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 10:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Shades of IBM XDF--and whatever the format that MS used briefly to > > pack about 1.7MB on a floppy--basically writing combinations of > > differently > > I think that Microsoft called theirs "DMF" > They used that format for the Windows NT 3.51 Floppy Disk install set. (the only form of NT I could find retail at the time) I ended up using WinImage to back up and archive the disks. Sidenote- For imaging and archiving old PC disks, WinImage is a tool I don't see mentioned here that has proven valuable. The images that it produces are generic-plain (if you pick the uncompressed save option), enough that you can use the dd command in Unix to recreate disks from the images. It's important to me that there be multiple tools or at least a documented format to access archived images. (if you've never installed NT 3.51 off floppy disks, you've missed out on a real _fun_ experience) From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 8 14:18:09 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 14:18:09 -0500 Subject: HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay References: <434745B2.1070505@thegeekslair.org> <013301c5cc1a$ab6eaba0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <00cd01c5cc3d$0625a950$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written.... > The great news is that Gold Snipper may have "evolved" to the point > where here he is neither snipping nor parting out some seriously great > gold equipment. There's been at least one discussion of GoldSnipper here before. I think his prices are unrealistic. However, I am very glad to see him put stuff up for sale at least. Not often one sees an FPU available. This is a good thing I'd say. This does bring up a question I've been wondering as to the mindset of a scrapper/surplus dealer (in general, not a specific one), perhaps someone here can posit an explanation. I've seen a fair number of situations where a dealer/scrapper offers an item (not necessarily on ebay) for a price far above the going price. You offer them an amount above going prices, and far above scrap value... but even that is significantly less than their initial price. They refuse, and the item goes to the melting pot. I know for a fact that they are getting much less money in the melting pot than I was offering. I've seen this more than just once or twice. If I was in their position, I'd take double the melting pot money. I don't get it. > The HP boards of that era were real showpieces. > I have one board from one of these computers > ( as with http://gold-snipper.com/ebay/hp21s_6a.jpg ) and it is > ridiculously > over-engineered, IE gilded. I've mentioned this a time or two before on the list ;) > Slight bad news that he's set so high a price. Let's hope some lurkers > here > can affort this. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8702744737 cpu set includes DMA option, and the terminator board. No telling what firmware is installed. Full boat of memory (64k). Appears to be in overall very nice condition (GOD I love using that front panel). I'd be concerned about the backplane if it's missing the cover (can't tell if it's missing or just removed for the picture). Hope someone saves it, but even though it looks to be a really nice one, that's a pretty steep price. Jay West From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Oct 8 14:42:42 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 21:42:42 +0200 Subject: eBay: Alphaserver 8400 (12x 21164@425MHz), VAX 8800, PDP/11-24 Message-ID: <20051008194242.GA14750@lug-owl.de> Hi! This is quite a nice collection of hardware: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5816476462 Starting bid is 500?, unfortunately the guy selling it is located in Switzerland. From a first view at the images, all parts are in quite good condition. MfG, JBG PS: I'm not affiliated with the seller, I just found that listing. -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Oct 8 15:03:15 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 22:03:15 +0200 Subject: eBay: Alphaserver 8400 (12x 21164@425MHz), VAX 8800, PDP/11-24 In-Reply-To: <20051008194242.GA14750@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <902D2C60-3836-11DA-BB45-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> > > Starting bid is 500?, unfortunately the guy selling it is located in > Switzerland. From a first view at the images, all parts are in quite > good condition. > > He has long been busy selling off his entire computermuseum.... www.computermuseum.li The gems are already gone. Jos Dreesen From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Oct 8 15:07:27 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 22:07:27 +0200 Subject: eBay: Alphaserver 8400 (12x 21164@425MHz), VAX 8800, PDP/11-24 In-Reply-To: <902D2C60-3836-11DA-BB45-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> References: <20051008194242.GA14750@lug-owl.de> <902D2C60-3836-11DA-BB45-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20051008200727.GB14750@lug-owl.de> On Sat, 2005-10-08 22:03:15 +0200, Jos Dreesen wrote: > >Starting bid is 500?, unfortunately the guy selling it is located in > >Switzerland. From a first view at the images, all parts are in quite > >good condition. > > > > > He has long been busy selling off his entire computermuseum.... > > www.computermuseum.li Jup, just got that in an email from him. He already tried to auction these goods several times before on ricardo he wrote, but without success. If nobody takes it this time, all the stuff will be scrapped :( I'd be really interested in this stuff, but after I got this nice 6320 from UK, I'm somewhat out of $$$... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 15:22:58 2005 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 13:22:58 -0700 Subject: Datum half inch controller Message-ID: This is a really good controller if you want to run a pertec tape deck with a formatter. This puts out the classic 100 pin formatted pertec that can be run by any pertec controller. There is a converter from this 100 pin connection to the dual 50's that became predominate when cipher popularized them. I have one of the pertec adapters somewhere if someone needs the pinout if you don't already have the 100 pin cable :-) Datum Inc. Magnetic Tape Controller 5091 Item number: 5816293974 Jim From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 15:30:23 2005 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 13:30:23 -0700 Subject: eBay: Alphaserver 8400 (12x 21164@425MHz), VAX 8800, PDP/11-24 In-Reply-To: <902D2C60-3836-11DA-BB45-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> References: <20051008194242.GA14750@lug-owl.de> <902D2C60-3836-11DA-BB45-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: A very nice page of equipment is below. I wonder if he still has the Olivetti 203? I think that is the big brother to the Programma 101, which was my first "computer" in 1964. I have a 101, and would love to have a functional unit. I dont know if the later and larger programma units used the same programming or not, however. There are many other nice pages, including one which appears to be a move with all the equipment on skids being moved about with forklifts. Anyone know who this is, and what happened? Jim http://www.computermuseum.li/Museum/thumbnails.html On 10/8/05, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > > > > > > Starting bid is 500?, unfortunately the guy selling it is located in > > Switzerland. From a first view at the images, all parts are in quite > > good condition. > > > > > He has long been busy selling off his entire computermuseum.... > > www.computermuseum.li > > The gems are already gone. > > Jos Dreesen > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 8 08:08:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 08:08:02 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <20051007162358.U49026@shell.lmi.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20051007191504.11ef8752@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20051007191504.11ef8752@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051008080802.401fc3f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Thanks Fred. That's about what I thought but I thought the head would be different for QD and HD. Do you know where the speed jumper is located? At 04:34 PM 10/7/05 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Joe R. wrote: >> I found a pair of these drives and picked them up since my reference said >> that they were quad density drives AND they had DS-QD disks in them. >> However I looked on the net and found that everyone including Teac's site >> says that they are HD (1.2Mb) drives. Which are they? > >BOTH. >The 55F is "720K" only; 55G and GFR are 1.2M. >The 55GFR is a reliable and versatile drive. Good! They're going to be spares for my SB-180s :-) Joe From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 16:01:56 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 14:01:56 -0700 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051008080802.401fc3f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051007191504.11ef8752@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20051007191504.11ef8752@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20051008080802.401fc3f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200510081401560368.4E47942B@10.0.0.252> http://www.teac.com/DSPD/pdf/5fd0050a.pdf should answer most of your questions (hint: take a look at the "I" jumper). *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/8/2005 at 8:08 AM Joe R. wrote: >Thanks Fred. That's about what I thought but I thought the head would be >different for QD and HD. Do you know where the speed jumper is located? > > >At 04:34 PM 10/7/05 -0700, you wrote: >>On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Joe R. wrote: >>> I found a pair of these drives and picked them up since my reference >said >>> that they were quad density drives AND they had DS-QD disks in them. >>> However I looked on the net and found that everyone including Teac's >site >>> says that they are HD (1.2Mb) drives. Which are they? >> >>BOTH. >>The 55F is "720K" only; 55G and GFR are 1.2M. >>The 55GFR is a reliable and versatile drive. > > Good! They're going to be spares for my SB-180s :-) > > Joe From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Oct 8 16:01:57 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 16:01:57 -0500 Subject: Fwd: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051008160143.04bdfbe0@mail> >Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 23:57:02 -0400 >From: Stuart Pomerantz >To: jfoust at threedee.com >Subject: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors > >Dear Mr. Foust, > >I came across your website and your interest in old computers. I have a Sanyo MBC-555 computer in perfect condition with both color and amber monitors, all the old documentation/packing and several years worth of SoftSector, a Sanyo MBC 55x enthusiast magazine. Is there anyone in the world interested in this hardware/material or is it time to add to the world's landfills? Hope you can be of help (and can have first dibs, if interested). > >Sincerely, > >Stuart Pomerantz From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 8 10:24:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 16:24:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: TEC FD-50x drives - known issues? In-Reply-To: <20051008033854.VUI5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Oct 7, 5 11:38:55 pm Message-ID: > After some looking, I managed to find another pair of identical TEC > FD-501 drives - these came from a MSI disk box which had stopped > working, and guess what - both of those drives do not work either > (jumpered exactly the same as my working ones). > > That makes 5 out of 8 TEC FD-50x drives drives that I have come > across in the past year which are faulty - does anyone know if > there is a known issue with these drives? A disk drive performs several different functions. In particular, it rotates the disk, it detects the index hole and write protect notch, it moves the heads between cylinders and detects the track0 position, and it actually does the reading and writing. Do you know which, if any, of these systems are working? Can you get the disk to spin? Do you get an index pulse? Can you get the head to move? And so on. A drive exerciser is handy for this, but by no means essential. You can often get away with just pulling pins on the interface connector low with bits of wire connected to the 0V line. And look at the outputs with a logic probe. Remembr there output drivers are open-collector, so you need to add terminating/pullup resistors (traditionally 150 ohms to +5V) for tssting. Note that some drives with a big ASIC or microcontroller on them do some kind of power-on initialisation. In particular, a few drives do odd things if inputs are held active (low) at power-on. Other drives will ignore all inputs if the power-on seek-to-track-0 fails. If you have one of the latter units, you should be able to see transitions on the stepper motor drive outputs just after power-on. And you can check the track0 sensor by hand, of course. > > So, I'm looking for (in this order): > > - Technical information on the drives which would enable me to > repair these ones. I can't believe it would be that hard to trace out a schematic. Even if there's a big ASIC in the middle of the board (likely on half-height drives), you can often figure out what it's doing from the surrounding circuitry. You can at least check if things like senosr inputs do the right things as you move a bit of card in and out of the sensor, etc. -tony From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Oct 8 16:07:03 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 23:07:03 +0200 Subject: eBay: Alphaserver 8400 (12x 21164@425MHz), VAX 8800, PDP/11-24 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7971FE36-383F-11DA-BB45-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> > ith forklifts. > > Anyone know who this is, and what happened? Although this is very close to me, I never went there and never met him. His collection was moved to the german city of T?bingen. Asking price for the whole museum was well beyond my budget... Jos From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 8 16:27:20 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay In-Reply-To: <00cd01c5cc3d$0625a950$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: > This does bring up a question I've been wondering as to the mindset of a > scrapper/surplus dealer (in general, not a specific one), perhaps someone > here can posit an explanation. I've seen a fair number of situations where a > dealer/scrapper offers an item (not necessarily on ebay) for a price far > above the going price. You offer them an amount above going prices, and far > above scrap value... but even that is significantly less than their initial > price. They refuse, and the item goes to the melting pot. I know for a fact > that they are getting much less money in the melting pot than I was > offering. I've seen this more than just once or twice. If I was in their > position, I'd take double the melting pot money. I don't get it. One reason is that the "melting pot" is such an easy, established solution. These days, with the enviroNazis out there, most scrapmen really do not want to deal with people they do not know that well, for fear of a problem down the road (and in some cases, the problem has been years down the road). Sending the scrap off to China is very easy, and frankly, environmental restrictions on shipping things kind of go away when the scrap is set to leave the country. Plus, the Chinese do pay well. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 8 16:34:29 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 22:34:29 +0100 Subject: HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay In-Reply-To: <00cd01c5cc3d$0625a950$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <434745B2.1070505@thegeekslair.org> <013301c5cc1a$ab6eaba0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <00cd01c5cc3d$0625a950$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <43483B65.2090909@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > This does bring up a question I've been wondering as to the mindset of a > scrapper/surplus dealer (in general, not a specific one), perhaps > someone here can posit an explanation. I've seen a fair number of > situations where a dealer/scrapper offers an item (not necessarily on > ebay) for a price far above the going price. You offer them an amount > above going prices, and far above scrap value... but even that is > significantly less than their initial price. They refuse, and the item > goes to the melting pot. I know for a fact that they are getting much > less money in the melting pot than I was offering. Yep, I've known it to happen more than once too. My theory is that the mindset of the scrapper is that they know their own business whilst we don't, so to them either their idea of fair value is right, or the item is totally worthless and so their best bet is to destroy it for scrap value. Trying to offer them more than scrap value but less than their idea of fair price goes in one ear and out the other, even when the price you offer them would be more than they'd get otherwise. I believe my local scrapper/recycler back home has some sort of deal with his preferred scrappers (who take metal, boards with gold on, plastics etc.) whereby they only pick up a load once a month. Presumably the scrapper/recycler holds out until the very last second hoping that someone will be silly enough to pay their prices for an item, and when that doesn't happen they have a very short space of time in which to break it for bits to make that month's outgoing junk shipment. Sad state of affairs, really. Same thing happens with junkyards though I guess - to the owners they're just moving metal around, with no care as to what exactly the items are. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 16:44:19 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 14:44:19 -0700 Subject: HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510081444190050.4E6E606B@10.0.0.252> On 10/8/2005 at 5:27 PM William Donzelli wrote: > Sending the scrap off to China is very easy, and frankly, >environmental restrictions on shipping things kind of go away when the >scrap is set to leave the country. Plus, the Chinese do pay well. It's funny that a lot of so-called "green" electronics recycling centers get very quiet when you ask them where they send their PCB's for processing. It's not uncommon for rural communites in China to extract components from PCB's by an unprotected low-wage worker heating the boards in the open over a charcoal fire. After the components have been separated, the bare boards are simply taken to the town dump. Reminds me of Taiwan not so very long ago. Used wire was sent there for copper relcamation. The method of removing the insulation (usually PVC) was burning in the open air. As countries ascend the economic ladder, they are reluctant to process another's toxic waste. I suspect we'll eventually end up shipping electronic trash to Africa for processing. Cheers, Chuck From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 8 16:32:44 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 16:32:44 Subject: MIL MOD8 parts/software/information In-Reply-To: <02a401c5cc0b$a02e90c0$0500a8c0@jkearney.com> References: <20051008033900.VUW5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051008163244.109f1126@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:24 AM 10/8/05 -0400, you wrote: >Dave, > >You might try contacting Zbigniew Stachniak at York University. He's the >curator of a small museum specializing in Canadian computers and I know he >has a some amount of MOD8 / Microsystems International equipment and >documentation. > >> Any parts, documentation or software for this machine would be most >> welcome - being keenly interested in Canadian vintage computers and >> their history, I would very much like to see this running someday. > >There was a guy on eBay who had a stock of NOS MF8008's, but I don't >remember his handle. I think it was the same guy who has been selling these >mounted displays of the various Intel processor there occasionally. That sounds like Steve ? here in Orlando. He's a big time IC collector. I don't remember his E-bay id but I have his phone number and his E-mail address. Let me know if you want me to ask here about the stuff. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 8 18:01:58 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 18:01:58 Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: References: <0IO000IGN1NEIGG0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051008180158.41afd74e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:13 PM 10/7/05 +0100, you wrote: >> With all that in the case of 'shooting a KIM-1 the first tool >> I'd grab is the trusty VOM to check power and then the logic >> probe (you know those things that run off 5V and have three >> leds for logic levels aka logic dart) and proble around for > >I have never heard a normal logic probe called a logic dart. The >LogicDart (I think that's the right capitalisation) is a lovely little >instrument, originally HP, then probably Agilent, and I think it's now >made by Fluke under license. It's a handheld tool which can be used as a >logic probe 3 channel logic analyser, or diode/continuity checker. > >The most useful mode, IMHO, is 'investigate' In that mode, it works like >a logic probe. You only use one input channel, you have one probe to >tap on the circuit under test. There are red and green LEDs to show 0 and >1 on the probe tip. It displays the DC voltage at the probe tip (good for >checking supplies), and the frequency (determined by number of threshold >crossings per second). It's not a good DVM or frequency counter, it only >displays 2 or 3 figures in each case. But it's good enough to tell if >you're looking at the 5V supply or the -12V supply. It'll tell you if >you're looking at the 10MHz master clock or the same clock divided by 4. >And hit a buttone and it'll sample the signal and display it -- a bit >like a 1-channel analyser. Of course the sampling rate _and the >thresholds_ are user selectable. > >I won;t do everything, but as a first tool to start sorting out the >problem it's excellent. The only disadvantage is that it's not cheap... It's also not available anymore. HP quit selling them several years ago. I've been watching Ebay for one for over a year and there have been NONE listed. I guess their owner's don't want to part with them. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 8 18:10:59 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 18:10:59 Subject: Fwd: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051008160143.04bdfbe0@mail> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051008181059.109f407e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Yuck! I had a 555 and it's the worst "clone" ever made IMO! Feed it to the landfill! Joe At 04:01 PM 10/8/05 -0500, you wrote: > >>Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 23:57:02 -0400 >>From: Stuart Pomerantz >>To: jfoust at threedee.com >>Subject: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors >> >>Dear Mr. Foust, >> >>I came across your website and your interest in old computers. I have a Sanyo MBC-555 computer in perfect condition with both color and amber monitors, all the old documentation/packing and several years worth of SoftSector, a Sanyo MBC 55x enthusiast magazine. Is there anyone in the world interested in this hardware/material or is it time to add to the world's landfills? Hope you can be of help (and can have first dibs, if interested). >> >>Sincerely, >> >>Stuart Pomerantz > > From jim at jkearney.com Sat Oct 8 17:17:52 2005 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 18:17:52 -0400 Subject: MIL MOD8 parts/software/information References: <20051008033900.VUW5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <3.0.6.16.20051008163244.109f1126@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <002001c5cc56$3d1b4be0$0500a8c0@jkearney.com> > That sounds like Steve ? here in Orlando. He's a big time IC collector. > I don't remember his E-bay id but I have his phone number and his E-mail > address. Let me know if you want me to ask here about the stuff. Steve Emery? From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Sat Oct 8 17:52:16 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 15:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051008180158.41afd74e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20051008225216.37059.qmail@web51611.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Joe R." wrote: > It's also not available anymore. HP quit selling > them several years ago. > I've been watching Ebay for one for over a year and > there have been NONE > listed. I guess their owner's don't want to part > with them. > > Joe > > I assume you mean they are not available cheap and used, but new they are frequently available on ebay, here is one that just sold a few days ago. http://cgi.ebay.com/Logic-Probe-LogicDart-HP-E2310A-Brand-NEW_W0QQitemZ7550409550QQcategoryZ97188QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem I think they sold for $1000 when HP sold them, no one bought them, in 9 months they stop production __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 17:54:08 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 15:54:08 -0700 Subject: Ringout on Overland Data TX-8/TX-16 cable? Message-ID: <200510081554080312.4EAE4BFD@10.0.0.252> Does anyone have the wiring details for the Pertec-to-Overland Data TX-8 or TX-16 cable used on OD's non-SCSI 9-track equipment? It's got a D-sub 62-pin male connector on one end and two 50 conductor female edge connectors on the other labeled P1 and P2. I might be able to figure this one out, but if someone's got the wiring diagram (or knows of a source) , I'd be obliged. Thanks, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Oct 8 18:56:53 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 00:56:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fwd: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051008160143.04bdfbe0@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20051008160143.04bdfbe0@mail> Message-ID: <1443.192.168.0.5.1128815813.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Curses, wrong side of the pond I'm guessing! I have a pair of 555s that look like they've seen the world on the back of a donkey so a good condition one would be nice! (yes, I know I'm weird :)) On Sat, October 8, 2005 10:01 pm, John Foust said: > >>Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 23:57:02 -0400 >>From: Stuart Pomerantz >>To: jfoust at threedee.com >>Subject: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors >> >>Dear Mr. Foust, >> >>I came across your website and your interest in old computers. I have a >> Sanyo MBC-555 computer in perfect condition with both color and amber >> monitors, all the old documentation/packing and several years worth of >> SoftSector, a Sanyo MBC 55x enthusiast magazine. Is there anyone in the >> world interested in this hardware/material or is it time to add to the >> world's landfills? Hope you can be of help (and can have first dibs, if >> interested). >> >>Sincerely, >> >>Stuart Pomerantz > > -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 8 19:19:54 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 19:19:54 -0500 Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted References: <20051008225216.37059.qmail@web51611.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000c01c5cc67$2d29d060$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone wrote.... >> I've been watching Ebay for one for over a year and >> there have been NONE >> listed. I guess their owner's don't want to part >> with them. Actually, I saw an HP Logic Dart on ebay maybe.... six months ago or so. Jay West From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 8 19:36:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051006085052.10cf5294@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Joe R. wrote: > That's rather silly. The disks are worthless where they're at now. Find > a reliable shipper, such as FedEx, insure the hell out of the package and > ship them. I've shipped handreds of pounds (weight) of one of a kind books More to be a smart-ass than anything, but what good is insuring one of a kind data? It's the data you're after, not the money, and if it's lost, you not only lose the data for good, but you then have the uphill challenge of trying to convince Fedex that the 30 year old unfinished video game that may or may not have been retrievable from your old floppy disks was worth what you insured it for. I'm in touch with the author and will be taking care of this ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 8 19:39:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <0INX00DPLXRC1P12@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > For 8" stuff the prognosis is not so bad. However the media is so old that > may be more of a problem with oxide shedding. I haven't yet seen a floppy disk (and I have some probably as old as 30 years by now) that have shed oxide. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 8 19:42:44 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 20:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay In-Reply-To: <200510081444190050.4E6E606B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > It's funny that a lot of so-called "green" electronics recycling > centers get very quiet when you ask them where they send their PCB's > for processing. It's not uncommon for rural communites in China to > extract components from PCB's by an unprotected low-wage worker > heating the boards in the open over a charcoal fire. After the > components have been separated, the bare boards are simply taken to > the town dump. This is not really the case anymore - the Chinese have really cleaned up their act, not so much for environmental reasons, but because they can make more money due to better yields. The unprotected low-wage workers are still mostly unprotected, but they are very willing. They tend to be young men, as it is a common way for them to make their dowry money. Most are now employed taking apart assemblies piece by piece (they will, for example, unwind motors and transformers), with the nasty refining being done using modern machines. > Reminds me of Taiwan not so very long ago. Used wire was sent there > for copper relcamation. The method of removing the insulation > (usually PVC) was burning in the open air. Very wrong. Just about everyone these days, including the Chinese, use shredders with a water float tank to skim off the insulation. It is very cheap and the metal recovery approaches 100 percent. The burning method, used 20 or 30 years ago, wastes a huge amount of the metal to oxidation. Be careful what you read these days - there is a lot of untruths about the recycling industry overseas, with most of the views based on what was happening 20 years ago. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 19:46:42 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:46:42 -0700 Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <000c01c5cc67$2d29d060$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <20051008225216.37059.qmail@web51611.mail.yahoo.com> <000c01c5cc67$2d29d060$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90510081746s7fb1d3baq3b7b753f0375cd81@mail.gmail.com> On 10/8/05, Jay West wrote: > Someone wrote.... > >> I've been watching Ebay for one for over a year and > >> there have been NONE > >> listed. I guess their owner's don't want to part > >> with them. > > Actually, I saw an HP Logic Dart on ebay maybe.... six months ago or so. > > Jay West > Sometimes they don't seem that expensive on eBay. $157 a week ago. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:B:BCA:US:31&Item=7548415594 From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 8 19:58:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Big-assed Nerd belt buckle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 7:08 AM -0700 10/6/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >For the hickish nerds: > > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8224062317 > > The fact that you even found that seriously frightens me! eBay searches turn up the weirdest shit. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 20:04:15 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 18:04:15 -0700 Subject: HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510081804150918.4F256CED@10.0.0.252> On 10/8/2005 at 8:42 PM William Donzelli wrote: >This is not really the case anymore - the Chinese have really cleaned up >their act, not so much for environmental reasons, but because they can >make more money due to better yields. Hmmm, seems that I read about this earlier this year in IEEE Spectrum, a source that's usually pretty reliable... Cheers, Chuck From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 8 20:02:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 18:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Big-assed Nerd belt buckle In-Reply-To: <43457258.1090105@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > > For the hickish nerds: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8224062317 > > > ARE YOU LOOKIN' AT ME? > > > I'm embarassed to admit that I sort of want it.... You're in the right part of the country for it ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Oct 8 20:15:35 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 20:15:35 -0500 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43486F37.2010604@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Joe R. wrote: > > >> That's rather silly. The disks are worthless where they're at now. Find >>a reliable shipper, such as FedEx, insure the hell out of the package and >>ship them. I've shipped handreds of pounds (weight) of one of a kind books > > > More to be a smart-ass than anything, but what good is insuring one of a > kind data? It's the data you're after, not the money, and if it's lost, > you not only lose the data for good, but you then have the uphill > challenge of trying to convince Fedex that the 30 year old unfinished > video game that may or may not have been retrievable from your old floppy > disks was worth what you insured it for. The idea is that the carrier will be much more careful if a package is insured for $big_num. Of course, *every* item is handled with the same care (wink wink, nod nod), but strangely enough I've never had a shipment damaged that was insured for over $250. Doc From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Oct 8 20:23:07 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 20:23:07 -0500 Subject: Fwd: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051008181059.109f407e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20051008160143.04bdfbe0@mail> <3.0.6.16.20051008181059.109f407e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20051008202307.41bda725.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 18:10:59 "Joe R." wrote: > Yuck! I had a 555 and it's the worst "clone" ever made IMO! Feed > it to > the landfill! > > Joe > > Machines like that have historical value. I remember the Sanyo PC Clones, too. They wouldn't boot from anything except the specific Sanyo version of MS-DOS. They were 'closed' without expandability. Still, they were early enough systems to have some historical value, as a 'kinda clone' system. The Columbia Data Systems was a 'kinda' too, and I remember frowning on them back in the day at swapmeets and junkshops, and I would LOVE to have one now (one of the very first IBM 'clones' from before Compaq's success). There's a lot of historical worth in machines from that era that were 'stinkers.' In particular, people who have bad memories of them and want them destroyed will ensure that they are more rare than usual eventually. I have similar bad memories of the AT&T 6300. I remember all the time wasted at work trying to get a high density floppy disk to work (not my time, but the engineers who futzed with it grew to hate the machine.) And yet, there are people here who would be happy to have an AT&T 6300 now. There are probably still people who consider them 'superior' to the IBM-PC because they used an 8086 and a 16-bit wide data path. Machines like the Sanyo belong in somebody's collection. (no room here, sadly) > At 04:01 PM 10/8/05 -0500, you wrote: > > > >>Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 23:57:02 -0400 > >>From: Stuart Pomerantz > >>To: jfoust at threedee.com > >>Subject: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors > >> > >>Dear Mr. Foust, > >> > >>I came across your website and your interest in old computers. I > >have a > Sanyo MBC-555 computer in perfect condition with both color and amber > monitors, all the old documentation/packing and several years worth of > SoftSector, a Sanyo MBC 55x enthusiast magazine. Is there anyone in > the world interested in this hardware/material or is it time to add to > the world's landfills? Hope you can be of help (and can have first > dibs, if interested). > >> > >>Sincerely, > >> > >>Stuart Pomerantz > > > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 8 20:27:39 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 21:27:39 -0400 Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted Message-ID: <0IO200JX1K1J15L5@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted > From: "Jay West" > Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 19:19:54 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Someone wrote.... >>> I've been watching Ebay for one for over a year and >>> there have been NONE >>> listed. I guess their owner's don't want to part >>> with them. > >Actually, I saw an HP Logic Dart on ebay maybe.... six months ago or so. > >Jay West My use of logic dart was not aimed at the HP device but a lesser but similar varient. That name came from back when in a shop I ran many years ago one of the techs like to call the logic probe a "logic dart". Little did I know then. Tom was bit of a klutz and could trip sitting down so.. The story behind it was that one time he asked for "it" and ended up getting darted (stick) in the inner upper thigh because of a fumble dropping it on his lap. The descriptive name sorta stuck[sticks]. The one we used around the shop for minor logic work in scanners and the like was an Eico product had been modded with a sharp stainless point (aka Dart!). I still remember the look on his face when it happend. Can you say a near miss? He almost did. Now, all the pundits can have fun. Remember _logic dart_. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 8 20:31:30 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 21:31:30 -0400 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: <0IO200KTZK7ZIIX1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data > From: Vintage Computer Festival > Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 17:39:48 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > >> For 8" stuff the prognosis is not so bad. However the media is so old that >> may be more of a problem with oxide shedding. > >I haven't yet seen a floppy disk (and I have some probably as old as 30 >years by now) that have shed oxide. I have. It's not common and some vendors were more prone to it and humidity is a big factor. The earlier quality stuff as I said before didn't do it. Bit I do have some crap Nashua stuff from around 84ish that was known for it. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 20:36:08 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 18:36:08 -0700 Subject: HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay In-Reply-To: <200510081804150918.4F256CED@10.0.0.252> References: <200510081804150918.4F256CED@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510081836080383.4F429B1F@10.0.0.252> On 10/8/2005 at 8:42 PM William Donzelli wrote: >This is not really the case anymore - the Chinese have really cleaned up >their act, not so much for environmental reasons, but because they can >make more money due to better yields. Hmmm, according to this People's Daily article, the hazardous practices are still going on: http://english.people.com.cn/200505/24/eng20050524_186536.html ...and while importing of electronics scrap to China was supposedly banned in November 2004, Xinhua says that it's just gone underground: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-08/15/content_3354367.htm Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 8 20:38:19 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 21:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay In-Reply-To: <200510081804150918.4F256CED@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Hmmm, seems that I read about this earlier this year in IEEE Spectrum, > a source that's usually pretty reliable... Even the New York Times sometimes has crappy reporting. China and Taiwan are not the backwards third world countries they used to be. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 8 20:43:45 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 21:43:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay In-Reply-To: <200510081836080383.4F429B1F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Hmmm, according to this People's Daily article, the hazardous > practices are still going on: There probably are a few places still doing things the old way. Big deal. > ...and while importing of electronics scrap to China was supposedly > banned in November 2004, Xinhua says that it's just gone underground: Think about it - if the scrap trade to China stopped in 2004, their economy would have completely died by now. That is the furthest thing from the truth. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Oct 8 20:51:46 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 21:51:46 -0400 Subject: TEC FD-50x drives - known issues? Message-ID: <20051009015145.TEQP5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Well some comments. I used to have a lot of them, most all ahve died. >I regard that particular drive as junk. Agreed completely. >The size problem.. I've encountered it with NS* Horizon and Advantage. >However I put FD55BVs in the NS* after moving the rectifier as I >prefer them for reliability. > >I found a few PC 360k drives (48tpi) marked Newtronics D503 which are >Mitsumi drives that seem ok and are the shorter length (7-3/8"). >They look like the TEC drives but not quite. > >I have toshiba, FD55xx(B, E, F and Gs) and they are the same length. >Older 286/386 PCs are the source of many of the TEC and mitsumi drives. In this case the attempt is to keep the machine as original as possible. I think replacing the drives is not too bad, however to put in a drive with the data connector in the "wrong" place will require modification to the interface board in the back of the disk enclosure, which I think he would prefer not to do. I've found a few Newtronics/Mitsumi HD drives which will fit (Data connector is on the back left corner when drive faces you) ... one option I am considering is to see if I can modify the motor control board to go to 300 rpm (as far as I can tell there is no jumper) and strap Pin2 to keep the drive in low-density mode - I can regen and copy the disks to 80 track... But something more original would be preferable if I can find it... Do the Newtronics DD drive have the data connector in the position I described? Note that it's not so much a size problem, as the fact that there is a little board directly behind the drive with 1" cables for the data connectors - you simply can't put in drives with the data connector on the other side (which is where most of the drives I have put it). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Oct 8 20:51:52 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 21:51:52 -0400 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? Message-ID: <20051009015151.TESW5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >>More and more machines are showing up without physical support (ie: >>a select) for drive B: ... I have two Intel P3 board which do not >>drive the B: select (which is very annoying since these are two of >>the best systems for handling oddball formats with Imagedisk). >> >>Floppy drives are disappearing completely from some new machines, >>and I doubt it will be long before the controller disappears along >>with them (if it hasn't started already). >> >> >> >That I suspect will still be built into the support chips since it will >be too much trouble >to remove it. Floppies are now a extra option -- I had to have new >computer built with one. >Everybody is going to R/W DVD's now.. First the drives/cables go, then the connectors (why pay for a connector on the board that "nobody wants") - eventually the FDC itself may go when new chipsets appear (next round of CPU). Me: I hanging on to my stash of P1/P2 full ISA machines...! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Oct 8 20:51:56 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 21:51:56 -0400 Subject: TEC FD-50x drives - known issues? Message-ID: <20051009015155.TEUK5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >A disk drive performs several different functions. In particular, it >rotates the disk, it detects the index hole and write protect notch, it >moves the heads between cylinders and detects the track0 position, and it >actually does the reading and writing. This much I actually know :-) >Do you know which, if any, of these systems are working? Can you get the >disk to spin? Do you get an index pulse? Can you get the head to move? >And so on. All functions appear to work (Motor, Index, Step) - problem in all cases is in the read/write circuitry. Drive goes through all the motions, it just can't read/write. >A drive exerciser is handy for this, but by no means essential. Imagedisk's "Align/Test" function lets me excercise the drive with a fair bit of manual control. >You can >often get away with just pulling pins on the interface connector low with >bits of wire connected to the 0V line. And look at the outputs with a >logic probe. Remembr there output drivers are open-collector, so you need >to add terminating/pullup resistors (traditionally 150 ohms to +5V) for >tssting. > >Note that some drives with a big ASIC or microcontroller on them do some >kind of power-on initialisation. In particular, a few drives do odd >things if inputs are held active (low) at power-on. Other drives will >ignore all inputs if the power-on seek-to-track-0 fails. > >If you have one of the latter units, you should be able to see >transitions on the stepper motor drive outputs just after power-on. And >you can check the track0 sensor by hand, of course. All of this works. >I can't believe it would be that hard to trace out a schematic. Even if >there's a big ASIC in the middle of the board (likely on half-height >drives), you can often figure out what it's doing from the surrounding >circuitry. You can at least check if things like senosr inputs do the >right things as you move a bit of card in and out of the sensor, etc. It may come to this - At least I do have a couple of working drives that I can compare signals with - but I asked in case a) someone has the technical documentation or b) someone might say "oh yeah, thats a common problem caused by xxx...", either of which could save me a lot of time. I think I agree with Allison however that these drives are crap, and I'm not sure I want to spend a lot of time on them if suitable substitutes can be found - in this case, the physical constraints make this a but more challenging. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Oct 8 21:07:06 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 21:07:06 -0500 Subject: Dying PCjr drive; options? Message-ID: <43487B4A.1000404@oldskool.org> As the subject implies, I've got a PCjr with a floppy drive that is having trouble reading disks and fails the internal CTRL-ALT-INS diagnostics. Symptoms include a very loud/bad noise at first seek (rest of seeks sound ok), and a "B" ("have drive serviced") result of the diags. The diskette I used for diags was tested in a 5150 and found to be good. This drive was working a week ago but has declined steadily until it can't successfully boot the machine. (I bought some time by formatting disks 8 sectors per track instead of 9, but that no longers works :-) I've already cleaned it using a cleaning diskette and alcohol. What are my options? Is the floppy drive in a PCjr as goofy/proprietary as the rest of the machine? If so, should I even attempt to repair it? By the bad clunk/buzz noise, I am assuming the head is slamming into the side of the drive or something equally heinous. Another related question: When I was first getting started with personal computers 25 years ago, I seem to recall that track alignment was a common problem and could be fixed by using a calibration diskette and special software that you could monitor as you turned the alignment screw. Without one of those factory calibration diskettes, is it even possible to align/calibrate a floppy drive for track alignment? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 21:13:57 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 19:13:57 -0700 Subject: OT: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <43486F37.2010604@mdrconsult.com> References: <43486F37.2010604@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200510081913570049.4F6538A7@10.0.0.252> This whole discussion about the volatility of storage reminds me of a conversation I had recently with a friend who's a professional archivist. I asked her what medium was used for archival storage--CD-ROM, DVD, etc.? Paper. No ifs ands or buts about it. We can read paper that's been around for centuries; more than we can say for Zip disks or 8" floppies. Paper has outlasted everything but stone and baked clay tablets. And she's right--I have things in my filing cabinet that relate to microprocessors, such as the handout from the 8008 rollout announcement at Intel (looks to almost be mimeographed, but was probably just typed with a fabric ribbon). I've got software design documents printed on 14" tractor-feed paper whose target systems have long disappeared. I've a few 7-track 556 bpi mag tapes, but no drive to read 'em on, so they're not particularly useful, even if the oxide doesn't flake off when I try to read them. So, if it's important, paper is THE medium. Maybe it doesn't have great recording density, but it's pretty permanent as things go. Cheers, Chuck From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 21:23:27 2005 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 19:23:27 -0700 Subject: Ringout on Overland Data TX-8/TX-16 cable? In-Reply-To: <200510081554080312.4EAE4BFD@10.0.0.252> References: <200510081554080312.4EAE4BFD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: I'll see if the manuals I have on the tx's have a pinout. Jim On 10/8/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Does anyone have the wiring details for the Pertec-to-Overland Data TX-8 > or TX-16 cable used on OD's non-SCSI 9-track equipment? It's got a D-sub > 62-pin male connector on one end and two 50 conductor female edge connectors > on the other labeled P1 and P2. > > I might be able to figure this one out, but if someone's got the wiring > diagram (or knows of a source) , I'd be obliged. > > Thanks, > Chuck > > > > From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 21:30:12 2005 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 19:30:12 -0700 Subject: Fwd: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors In-Reply-To: <20051008202307.41bda725.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20051008160143.04bdfbe0@mail> <3.0.6.16.20051008181059.109f407e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20051008202307.41bda725.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Two comments: I remember seeing the useless book on how to get the most from your Sanyo Icon book at Micro Center here in Santa Ana, Ca tore. The thing stayed there till a purge, around 1998 or so. About 2 months ago, another one showed up at full price. This is the same store that marked all their copies of K&R C manuals down because of the copyright date to $5 each. I of course bought all of them. As to the CDP units, Columbia had a keyboard "ICE" or debugger. You could rig it to go immediatly into a software debugger on one of the serial ports before booting your OS. Also you could set it so that control-alt-1 or something like would drop into the debugger at any time, and I solved a lot of mysterious hangs early on with it. Sad that feature (letting the user figure out what the hell his system is doing) is missing on Windows these days. You only have your own lack of initiative if you use Linux in figuring out what your system is doing, which is how it should be. Jim BTW if we are voting I'd not toss the thing. It was pretty in its plastic case, and it should boot msdos at least, since the older ones were XT or PC compatable and should not have had any setup disk requirements. On 10/8/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > > On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 18:10:59 > "Joe R." wrote: > > > Yuck! I had a 555 and it's the worst "clone" ever made IMO! Feed > > it to > > the landfill! > > > > Joe > > > > > > Machines like that have historical value. I remember the Sanyo PC > Clones, too. They wouldn't boot from anything except the specific Sanyo > version of MS-DOS. They were 'closed' without expandability. Still, > they were early enough systems to have some historical value, as a > 'kinda clone' system. The Columbia Data Systems was a 'kinda' too, and > I remember frowning on them back in the day at swapmeets and junkshops, > and I would LOVE to have one now (one of the very first IBM 'clones' > from before Compaq's success). > > There's a lot of historical worth in machines from that era that were > 'stinkers.' In particular, people who have bad memories of them and > want them destroyed will ensure that they are more rare than usual > eventually. > > I have similar bad memories of the AT&T 6300. I remember all the time > wasted at work trying to get a high density floppy disk to work (not my > time, but the engineers who futzed with it grew to hate the machine.) > And yet, there are people here who would be happy to have an AT&T 6300 > now. There are probably still people who consider them 'superior' to > the IBM-PC because they used an 8086 and a 16-bit wide data path. > > Machines like the Sanyo belong in somebody's collection. (no room here, > sadly) > > > At 04:01 PM 10/8/05 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > >>Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 23:57:02 -0400 > > >>From: Stuart Pomerantz > > >>To: jfoust at threedee.com > > >>Subject: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors > > >> > > >>Dear Mr. Foust, > > >> > > >>I came across your website and your interest in old computers. I > > >have a > > Sanyo MBC-555 computer in perfect condition with both color and amber > > monitors, all the old documentation/packing and several years worth of > > SoftSector, a Sanyo MBC 55x enthusiast magazine. Is there anyone in > > the world interested in this hardware/material or is it time to add to > > the world's landfills? Hope you can be of help (and can have first > > dibs, if interested). > > >> > > >>Sincerely, > > >> > > >>Stuart Pomerantz > > > > > > > > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Oct 8 21:32:40 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 21:32:40 -0500 Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <20051008084928.790a8077.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051007213649.19684c52.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051008043439.24248.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> <20051008084928.790a8077.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200510082132.40557.pat@computer-refuge.org> Scott Stevens declared on Saturday 08 October 2005 08:49 am: > On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:34:38 -0700 (PDT) > > steve wrote: > > --- Scott Stevens wrote: > > > They were too > > > expensive (always in the five figures, usually the > > > mid five figures) > > > > those same analyzers are about $50 on ebay now > > Yes. $50 for the analyzer, which is too high a price without the > pods, then you spend 3 years and ultimately another $300 finding the > pods. A couple years ago, Purdue's salvage op was selling complete (with pods) 10MHz HP logic analyzers for $50 each. I ended up asking them how much they wanted for one some day late in December, and they said "Merry Christmas". Of course, I do buy quite about of stuff from them, mostly things that they'd tear apart as scrap. And then there was the 1989 Chevy boxvan I bought from them[1] to haul things back from there to my house. :) Another reason why it pays to befriend your local scrapper... [1] One of the few things I have paid a large amount from them (at auction), but probably a lot less than it was really worth. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 8 21:41:23 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 19:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dying PCjr drive; options? In-Reply-To: <43487B4A.1000404@oldskool.org> References: <43487B4A.1000404@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051008193540.W96019@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > What are my options? Is the floppy drive in a PCjr as goofy/proprietary as the > rest of the machine? The drive is NOT proprietary. One of the drives that IBM used a lot in them was the Qumetrak 142. That is the third worst drive I've dealt with. > If so, should I even attempt to repair it? If it is anything other than the Qumetrak 142. > Another related question: When I was first getting started with personal > computers 25 years ago, I seem to recall that track alignment was a common > problem and could be fixed by using a calibration diskette and special software > that you could monitor as you turned the alignment screw. Without one of those > factory calibration diskettes, is it even possible to align/calibrate a floppy > drive for track alignment? Nowhere near as well as you can with a scope and an analog alignment diskette. With the digital alignement disk (scopeless), you can do a marginally adequate job. With a scope and a diskette that is known to be in alignment (KNOWN TO BE IN ALIGNMENT, NOT just "from a working machine), you can get the alignment close enough to work. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 8 21:57:12 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 19:57:12 -0700 Subject: Electronics recycling, was HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510081957120991.4F8CD48B@10.0.0.252> On 10/8/2005 at 9:43 PM William Donzelli wrote: >> Hmmm, according to this People's Daily article, the hazardous >> practices are still going on: > >There probably are a few places still doing things the old way. Big deal. The problem to me is that we just don't know how big a deal it is. IP piracy (music, movies, software, designer fashions) is also something that the Chinese government has come out against (and they periodically crack down on some group or another for show). Yet how big would you say that the pirate software or music business is in China? I don't know--I doubt that anyone has a really accurate figure--but it's not negligible. Illegal, yes. So when the official party organ of the PRC comes out this year and says that there's still a problem, how big is it? I don't know, but I suspect that it's not negligible. Cheers, Chuck From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Oct 8 22:21:31 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 23:21:31 -0400 Subject: Dying PCjr drive; options? Message-ID: <20051009032129.UUIW5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >As the subject implies, I've got a PCjr with a floppy drive that is having >trouble reading disks and fails the internal CTRL-ALT-INS diagnostics. >Symptoms include a very loud/bad noise at first seek (rest of seeks sound ok), A failed track-0 detector can cause a drive to make loud noises at first seek, and to misalign on subsequent track accesses - if the drive hits the physical stop before the track-0 sensor trips, then the head will "rattle" against the stop until the controller gives up trying (usually around 77-80 steps). If the physical setup of the drive is such that the stepper is able to "make a step" past track-0 in this case, the alignment for subsequent accesses will be off as well. >Another related question: When I was first getting started with personal >computers 25 years ago, I seem to recall that track alignment was a common >problem and could be fixed by using a calibration diskette and special software >that you could monitor as you turned the alignment screw. Without one of those >factory calibration diskettes, is it even possible to align/calibrate a floppy >drive for track alignment? You can't do a proper job of drive alignment without an alignment disk and a scope. As with most things, there are fine to not-so-fine lines between "proper" and "passable". I've built a Align/Test function into ImageDisk which will let you do a reasonable job of track-to-track alignment of the drive to a known good disk (alignment is at best only as good as the disk you are using). With a known good disk in the drive (I would suggest using a factory original diskette from a high-profile software vendor, or a disk freshly formatted on a NEW high-quality drive): - Run ImageDisk, select the drive etc. and execute the A)lign/Test function. - Step out the middle of the disk. 'S2' will step to track 20. - Execute 'A'nalyze. This will identify the format of the track, which will be displayed at the top of the screen. - ImageDisk will continue reading the track, and will beep at about a 2hz rate, with a tone which is 500hz + 100hz for every unique sector which it reads that matches the cylinder id of the track you have stepped to. It will also show counts of matching and non-matching cylinder sectors. - If your disk is far out of alignment, you may need to start at the inside or outside edge to get matching sectors. In really bad cases you may need to fiddle with the drive alignment in order to get to this point. - Once you are reading sectors, listing to the audible tones while slowly adjusting the position of the head will allow you to determine the limits of where the head can read the track without taking your eyes off of it. Set the position to the 1/2 way point between these limits. - Repeat on inner and outer tracks, working toward the best compromise that you can achieve. - To adjust the track-0 switch, use 'Z'ero (recalibrate) and '+' (step out) to move the head back and forth between track-0 and track-1 at each track ImageDisk will beep as described above, and display a running count of the matching and non-matching sectors read from the tracks. When the sensor is set correctly, the counts will be correct (all matching, no non-matching) and the head will perform a single step in each direction, without banging against the stop. - If the head "rattles" against the stop on 'Z', move the track-0 sensor slightly toward the center of the disk. - If the head does not step out to track-0 on 'Z', then move the track-0 sensor slightly away from the center of the disk. The adjustments are interrelated, in that the drive has to find track-0 before it can reliably seek to any track - some going back and forth is to be expected (you get MUCH better at it after having done it a few times). Nowhere near as good as using a proper alignment disk, however I have used variations of this technique a number of times on drives that have worked reliably for many years afterward. As always, your mileage may vary. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 8 22:24:48 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 23:24:48 -0400 Subject: TEC FD-50x drives - known issues? Message-ID: <0IO200BTLPGR0SO0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TEC FD-50x drives - known issues? > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 21:51:46 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I've found a few Newtronics/Mitsumi HD drives which will fit (Data >connector is on the back left corner when drive faces you) ... one >option I am considering is to see if I can modify the motor control >board to go to 300 rpm (as far as I can tell there is no jumper) and >strap Pin2 to keep the drive in low-density mode - I can regen and >copy the disks to 80 track... But something more original would be >preferable if I can find it... Do the Newtronics DD drive have the >data connector in the position I described? Holding it face down and looking at the top the connector is bottom left side. Connector location is tight locations can be a pain. I've found sometime if it's far enough away (wrong enough) a jumper cable can be used to make ends meet. Space permitting. >Note that it's not so much a size problem, as the fact that there is >a little board directly behind the drive with 1" cables for the data >connectors - you simply can't put in drives with the data connector >on the other side (which is where most of the drives I have put it). Sounds like some of the TRS80 drive boxes. The connector landed just right for SA400 and nothing else. Again if the drive is the mirror opposite flipping the drive may fit IF mounted vertically. For example the FD55BV works in the NS* horizon only if the drive is oriented so that the connector is on the up side rather than down because the added depth for the connector hits the rectifiers. If mounted horizonatly that sorta stinks as most work poorly upside down. One other solution, this is bizzarro. It assumes the media is soft sector. Replace the drive with a 720k compatable 3.5" floppy in a 5.25 adaptor. The problem here is getting software from the 5.25" down to the 3.5" if there is only one drive possible. If there are two drives a simple copy from one to the other works. I hear crowds screaming, sure you will not use the full capacity but, it works. I've done this stunt in many machines (my 4/84 kaypro has two thin 3.5" where one HH 5.25" used to fit.) Allison From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sun Oct 9 00:06:44 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 07:06:44 +0200 Subject: Ringout on Overland Data TX-8/TX-16 cable? References: <200510081554080312.4EAE4BFD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <004801c5cc8f$3e796560$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- Fra: "jim stephens" Til: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sendt: 9. oktober 2005 04:23 Emne: Re: Ringout on Overland Data TX-8/TX-16 cable? I'll see if the manuals I have on the tx's have a pinout. Jim On 10/8/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Does anyone have the wiring details for the Pertec-to-Overland Data TX-8 > or TX-16 cable used on OD's non-SCSI 9-track equipment? It's got a D-sub > 62-pin male connector on one end and two 50 conductor female edge connectors > on the other labeled P1 and P2. > That would be great, as I have 3 or 4 Pertec cables endning in sub-d connectors. They have different layout. I know some come from a TX-8/TXi16, and others from a blue Overland adapter, but I can't remember whatswhat Nico From allanh-cctalk at kallisti.com Sun Oct 9 00:17:04 2005 From: allanh-cctalk at kallisti.com (Allan Hessenflow) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 22:17:04 -0700 Subject: Ringout on Overland Data TX-8/TX-16 cable? In-Reply-To: <200510090324.j993OFn4067506@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510090324.j993OFn4067506@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20051008221704.A5146@kallisti.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does anyone have the wiring details for the Pertec-to-Overland Data > TX-8 or TX-16 cable used on OD's non-SCSI 9-track equipment? It's > got a D-sub 62-pin male connector on one end and two 50 conductor female > edge connectors on the other labeled P1 and P2. I rung one out, here is my documentation: The cable does not appear to contain twisted pairs, so which wire is used for which signal below is probably completely arbitrary. The wire assignment shown is from an Overland Data factory wired cable. The cable shield is connected to the D connector shell; the other end of the shield does not appear to contact anything. /* Sorted by Overland side */ 1 orange/red J1-a 2 brown/grey J1-Z 3 brown/violet J1-Y 4 yellow/red J1-X 5 violet/brown J1-W 6 grey/brown J1-V 7 black/white J1-U 8 green/black J1-T 9 black/green J1-S 10 green/red J1-R 11 black/orange J1-P 12 black/blue J1-N 13 violet/red J2-N 14 green/white J1-L 15 white/black J1-K 16 brown/yellow J2-K 17 red/green J1-F 18 blue/black J1-E 19 green/brown J1-D 20 orange/black J1-C 21 red/black J1-B 22 black/brown J2-Y 23 red/brown J2-X 24 white/grey J2-W 25 white/yellow J2-V 26 orange/white J2-U 27 white/red J2-T 28 orange/brown J2-S 29 grey/black J2-R 30 red/white J2-P 31 yellow/black J2-M 32 grey/red J2-L 33 black/yellow J2-J 34 white/blue J2-H 35 brown/black J2-F 36 orange/yellow J2-E 37 white/violet J2-D 38 white/brown J2-C 39 brown/red J2-B 40 violet/white J2-A 41 brown/orange J1-A 42 yellow/orange J2-2 43 red/orange J2-a 44 black/grey J2-Z 45 red/blue J2-b 46 red/grey J1-b 47 red/yellow J2-c 48 brown/white J1-c 49 green/orange J1-M 50 violet/black J2-1 51 blue/brown J2-24 52 orange/green J2-20 53 grey/white J2-16 54 yellow/white J2-13 55 white/orange J2-9 56 black/red J2-5 57 red/violet J1-24 58 yellow/brown J1-20 59 blue/white J1-16 60 black/violet J1-10 61 white/green J1-6 62 brown/green J1-2 nc nc J1-1 nc nc J1-11 nc nc J1-12 nc nc J1-13 nc nc J1-14 nc nc J1-15 nc nc J1-17 nc nc J1-18 nc nc J1-19 nc nc J1-21 nc nc J1-22 nc nc J1-23 nc nc J1-25 nc nc J1-3 nc nc J1-4 nc nc J1-5 nc nc J1-7 nc nc J1-8 nc nc J1-9 nc nc J1-H nc nc J1-J nc nc J2-10 nc nc J2-11 nc nc J2-12 nc nc J2-14 nc nc J2-15 nc nc J2-17 nc nc J2-18 nc nc J2-19 nc nc J2-21 nc nc J2-22 nc nc J2-23 nc nc J2-25 nc nc J2-3 nc nc J2-4 nc nc J2-6 nc nc J2-7 nc nc J2-8 /* sorted by Pertec side */ nc nc J1-1 62 brown/green J1-2 nc nc J1-3 nc nc J1-4 nc nc J1-5 61 white/green J1-6 nc nc J1-7 nc nc J1-8 nc nc J1-9 60 black/violet J1-10 nc nc J1-11 nc nc J1-12 nc nc J1-13 nc nc J1-14 nc nc J1-15 59 blue/white J1-16 nc nc J1-17 nc nc J1-18 nc nc J1-19 58 yellow/brown J1-20 nc nc J1-21 nc nc J1-22 nc nc J1-23 57 red/violet J1-24 nc nc J1-25 41 brown/orange J1-A 21 red/black J1-B 20 orange/black J1-C 19 green/brown J1-D 18 blue/black J1-E 17 red/green J1-F nc nc J1-H nc nc J1-J 15 white/black J1-K 14 green/white J1-L 49 green/orange J1-M 12 black/blue J1-N 11 black/orange J1-P 10 green/red J1-R 9 black/green J1-S 8 green/black J1-T 7 black/white J1-U 6 grey/brown J1-V 5 violet/brown J1-W 4 yellow/red J1-X 3 brown/violet J1-Y 2 brown/grey J1-Z 1 orange/red J1-a 46 red/grey J1-b 48 brown/white J1-c 50 violet/black J2-1 42 yellow/orange J2-2 nc nc J2-3 nc nc J2-4 56 black/red J2-5 nc nc J2-6 nc nc J2-7 nc nc J2-8 55 white/orange J2-9 nc nc J2-10 nc nc J2-11 nc nc J2-12 54 yellow/white J2-13 nc nc J2-14 nc nc J2-15 53 grey/white J2-16 nc nc J2-17 nc nc J2-18 nc nc J2-19 52 orange/green J2-20 nc nc J2-21 nc nc J2-22 nc nc J2-23 51 blue/brown J2-24 nc nc J2-25 40 violet/white J2-A 39 brown/red J2-B 38 white/brown J2-C 37 white/violet J2-D 36 orange/yellow J2-E 35 brown/black J2-F 34 white/blue J2-H 33 black/yellow J2-J 16 brown/yellow J2-K 32 grey/red J2-L 31 yellow/black J2-M 13 violet/red J2-N 30 red/white J2-P 29 grey/black J2-R 28 orange/brown J2-S 27 white/red J2-T 26 orange/white J2-U 25 white/yellow J2-V 24 white/grey J2-W 23 red/brown J2-X 22 black/brown J2-Y 44 black/grey J2-Z 43 red/orange J2-a 45 red/blue J2-b 47 red/yellow J2-c allan -- Allan N. Hessenflow allanh at kallisti.com From A.MacDonald at slitesys.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 8 05:52:27 2005 From: A.MacDonald at slitesys.demon.co.uk (Alistair MacDonald) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 11:52:27 +0100 Subject: OT for a sec: US wiring sources of info In-Reply-To: <1161.192.168.0.5.1128728189.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <1161.192.168.0.5.1128728189.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4347A4EB.4050309@slitesys.demon.co.uk> Witchy wrote: > ObClassiccmp: I saw a PET 8032 with 8050 floppy drive and printer > yesterday. Bet all of it had 13A fuses :D That reminds me -- must pick up those two PETS and floppy drives from Leeds ... 8-) >>-- >>This message has been scanned for viruses and >>dangerous content by MailScanner, and is >>believed to be clean. > > > This message has been scanned by me and determined to be text based and > therefore not susceptible to virus attack. 'rah for text based emails! > Anyone heard of anything so ridiculous?! > > (sorry :)) > Blame Debian -- MailScanner just got upgraded and decided to add that ridiculous message to every single message it checks. It was turned off shortly afterward when I noticed it modifying incoming messages. Alistair From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sat Oct 8 06:38:14 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 07:38:14 -0400 Subject: Best OS/2 1.3 or 2.1 Machine In-Reply-To: <008801c5cbcb$240abbd0$0500fea9@game> References: <008801c5cbcb$240abbd0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <6.2.5.4.2.20051008071804.03375558@boff-net.dhs.org> .... Actually, that is incorrect. There are a LOT of people who still collect the older workstation PS/2's. Some places have entire sites dedicated to just that. A lot of chatter on the ibm.ps/2 google groups is around workstations and not servers for ps/2. There is also an entire google group that is active that discusses the various uses of OS/2 and some bullshit knockoff known as e-comstation (often referred to by IBM'ers as e-con - as in conning you out of your money). comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware 'main one for hardware'(don't use the comp.sys.ibm.ps2 as it is often just a bulletin board for spam and there are no real posts on it most of the time). comp.os.os2 (piles of sub groups under it, personally, I use .misc). As it stands, I use an IBM ps/2 8570 and an 8557SLC (thank you fellow classiccmp'er) on my TR network now and they can talk to the outside world over a transparent bridge/switch to the Ethernet side that goes to my broadband router. Yes, lots of classic and working perfectly well stuff involved there. I even know a fellow who at 1 point, had 5 or 6 ps/2 workstations arrayed in Linux as a BeoWulf cluster (I don't even think I spelled that right, then again I don't use a cluster myself). -John Boffemmyer IV > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/124 - Release Date: 10/7/2005 From bv at norbionics.com Sat Oct 8 08:00:10 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 15:00:10 +0200 Subject: Best OS/2 1.3 or 2.1 Machine In-Reply-To: <20051007191500.450ba99b.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <200510071026440939.485C3623@10.0.0.252> <200510072140.RAA10579@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00e501c5cb89$208bfb50$0500fea9@game> <20051007191500.450ba99b.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 02:15:00 +0200, Scott Stevens wrote: > > I wouldn't mind running my PC Server 704 as an OS/2 Warp Server, but I > don't have any idea where to track down Warp Server installation media. > It's a dandy machine running NetBSD 2.0 at present. http://www.ecomstation.org/ eComStation is the SOHO distribution of OS/2, and after IBM stopped retail sales it is the only retail outlet for OS/2. I have one IBM WSeB and two eComStation systems, and they are basically identical except that eCS keeps getting updated. One eCS is running as an intranet server with JBoss among other things, but it is a rather modern system (AMD 2400+). I think all pre-WSeB versions will run on a 386 processor, but one of the fixpacks changed the requirement to 486 because it started to use new instructions. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Sat Oct 8 08:09:37 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 15:09:37 +0200 Subject: Best OS/2 1.3 or 2.1 Machine In-Reply-To: <00e501c5cb89$208bfb50$0500fea9@game> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <200510071026440939.485C3623@10.0.0.252> <200510072140.RAA10579@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00e501c5cb89$208bfb50$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 23:50:25 +0200, Teo Zenios wrote: > I was wondering since IBM produced OS/2 did any of their machines (PS/2 > series maybe) run OS/2 better then clones or other companies machines. I > have OS/2 1.1 Extended up to 4.0 in my collection and was thinking of > getting a dedicated machine to test them out on. Since I have used Warp > before I was thinking about trying the older versions like 2.1. > With OS/2 versions 1.x, there were at times dramatic performance differences between a PS/2 and an AT or compatible, or more precicesly between ABIOS/MCA computers and those without ABIOS. It was very noticeable when you used the database server. I spent a lot of time trying to get Microsoft OS/2 1.1 working properly on an early Mitac 386. It took some faxes to the Mitac developers in Taiwan (who were not too fluent in English) to get the problems solved. With OS/2 version 2.x and newer, there is no difference that I have noticed. -- -bv From hollobon at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 12:32:27 2005 From: hollobon at gmail.com (Pete Hollobon) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 18:32:27 +0100 Subject: Unix on BBC micro with 16032 coprocessor Message-ID: <2ddaa6ea0510081032jd142dfej@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone know if Xenix / Unix were ever available on the NS 16032 second processor for the BBC micro? I remember reading that it was intended to be made available in the user's guide years ago. Pete From tim at tim-mann.org Sat Oct 8 16:25:41 2005 From: tim at tim-mann.org (Tim Mann) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 14:25:41 -0700 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <200510080825.j988PgPn047793@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510080825.j988PgPn047793@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 03:25:49 -0500 (CDT), cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 22 > Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:51:09 -0700 > From: jim stephens > Subject: Re: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I am still slowly getting over my long painful struggle to get > > two floppy drives enabled on a Dell Optiplex system. There's support > > for a second floppy in the BIOS but it appears the hardware support is > > entirely missing. I had to just do away with the 3-1/2" disk to get a > > 5-1/4" disk installed in one of my (many, since I get them for < $5 all > > kitted out with Pentium III processors) beloved (!!??!!) Optiplex boxes. > > Was there THAT much savings in not including hardware support for two > > floppies, DELL? Why not patch settings for the second drive out of the > > BIOS so we don't pound our heads against the wall trying?? > > > > I'm curious about the comment about second drive support missing. I > am curious why the addition of a proper multiheaded cable doesnt > fix this? > > they actually dont drive the drive select in the cable? I built a new machine around an EPoX 9NPA nForce 4 motherboard and found out to my surprise that it was only capable of running one floppy drive. In my case the BIOS provides no way to enable a second drive, so at least it's consistent. Having a BIOS that lets you put in settings for a second drive when the hardware doesn't support it would really be a screwup. EPoX makes schematics available, so I downloaded one and studied it to try to confirm whether there really was no way to get a second drive to work. It turns out the super-IO chip they use to run the floppies and several other system functions (fan control, temperature sensors, serial and parallel ports, etc.) has only a limited number of pins. Several have multiple functions, and the motherboard designer has to select which function he wants to use for each pin and do without the others. EPoX chose to use the pins that could have driven the second floppy's motor-on and drive select for other functions (I forget what offhand). So those pins are no-connects on the floppy cable. As a small compensation, it's possible to reconfigure the parallel port as an external floppy connector. If you do that, you can put two drives on it. (Whoopee.) This all is not a huge deal for me since I can pop a Catweasel card into the machine if I really want more floppies in it, but it's a bit annoying. -- Tim Mann tim at tim-mann.org http://tim-mann.org/ From allanshimer at aol.com Sat Oct 8 21:22:09 2005 From: allanshimer at aol.com (allanshimer at aol.com) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 22:22:09 -0400 Subject: 11/750 Boards Message-ID: <8C79A8F62AB475B-135C-B1F2@FWM-R31.sysops.aol.com> Do you still have any of the CPU boards. I need an L0001, L0002 and L0008. Sincerely, Allan Shimer From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 8 08:50:21 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 06:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MPX-16 census Message-ID: <20051008135021.35275.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> a scholar and a gentleman. I even considered building my own, though not sure if MM made the artwork available. Was put off by the fact that the board has 7 layers according to the article. If anyone is knowledgeable enough of pcb production - is it possible to make a 7 layer board w/o special equipment/materials? Why did it even need 7 layers? How many layers were did the IBM PC mobo have? I know for a fact that the RE robot puter (80188) mobo had 2 sides (top and bottom, no sandwich). --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 07:29:40 -0700 (PDT) > Chris M wrote: > > > dont have one, but want one. I hope youll make disk > > images available. > > I certainly will. A list member has extended a warm welcome to the idea > of me imaging my disks and putting them on his site. More to follow > when they're all imaged and online. > > > --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > > wrote: > > > Does anybody else on the list have an MPX-16 system? > > I recently > > > acquired one from a list member and am wondering how > > many of these > > > systems still exist. I have a large (relatively) > > collection of > > > diskettes with mine. > > > > > > The MPX-16, for those not familiar with it, was > > published as a project > > > in Steve Ciarcia's 'Circuit Cellar' column in Byte > > magazine. It was a > > > three part 'construction' article and the machine > > was sold by MicroMint > > > for a time. What I've heard is that about 500 > > machines in total were > > > produced. > > > > > > It's an early 'IBM Compatible' in that they designed > > it to be similar to > > > the PC, but only to a certain degree. It uses a > > serial console rather > > > than keyboard/display adapter, and it runs CP/M-86 > > and supposedly MS-DOS > > > though I don't have DOS diskettes for mine. It has > > ISA slots and a > > > similar architecture to the IBM-PC, coming out of > > that early era before > > > there were PC clones from the likes of Compaq. > > > > > > I'm curious of how many other MPX-16 systems have > > survived to today. > > > There isn't a lot about it online. I can share what > > information I have, > > > as I have manuals and docs with my system. I'm > > interested in hearing > > > from other people with this machine. > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > > http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From oldcomp at cox.net Sun Oct 9 01:08:24 2005 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 23:08:24 -0700 Subject: Univac panel and mystery TTL chips In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20051005145034.03328668@mail.saccade.com> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20051005145034.03328668@mail.saccade.com> Message-ID: <4348B3D8.7030609@cox.net> > appear to have a seven digit part number instead of a regular 74xxx > stamp. Is there a translation guide between this seven digit number and > regular 74xxx numbers? Most of the 74xxx parts on the board also have > these seven digit numbers. Years ago (1978), I picked up a chip cross reference print from Honeywell Surplus in Phoenix AZ. Looks like the numbers just might cross correctly for you. The list can be downloaded from my archive at: http://www.bytecollector.com/archive/info/ Enjoy! -Bryan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Oct 9 02:05:19 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 00:05:19 -0700 Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? References: <434781C6.DDE5D717@cs.ubc.ca> <4347B9BE.1030701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4348C11F.8CD9CC55@cs.ubc.ca> > Actually, the CP/M card with a Zilog Z80 was not an uncommon Apple II > option. OK, it was a plausible plot line, and I'm the ignorant one. I never used either the Apple II or CP/M to any great degree but I forgot that I actually have seen those Apple II plug-in boards with Z80s on them .. should have recalled and put 2+2 (Z80->CPM) together. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Oct 9 06:16:35 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:16:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unix on BBC micro with 16032 coprocessor In-Reply-To: <2ddaa6ea0510081032jd142dfej@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddaa6ea0510081032jd142dfej@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3019.192.168.0.5.1128856595.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, October 8, 2005 6:32 pm, Pete Hollobon said: > Does anyone know if Xenix / Unix were ever available on the NS 16032 > second > processor for the BBC micro? I remember reading that it was intended to be > made available in the user's guide years ago. It was supposed to be an option for the Cambridge Workstation since that also had a 16032/32016 2nd processor but I don't know if it ever made it into the wild. Graham Toal's the man who'll know I suspect, also Paul Williams (if he's around) and Jules R. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 06:42:40 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:42:40 +0100 Subject: eBay: Alphaserver 8400 (12x 21164@425MHz), VAX 8800, PDP/11-24 In-Reply-To: <20051008194242.GA14750@lug-owl.de> References: <20051008194242.GA14750@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <26c11a640510090442x5c38ec87h@mail.gmail.com> On 08/10/05, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > Hi! > > This is quite a nice collection of hardware: > > http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5816476462 > > Starting bid is 500?, unfortunately the guy selling it is located in > Switzerland. From a first view at the images, all parts are in quite > good condition. > > MfG, JBG > PS: I'm not affiliated with the seller, I just found that listing. > > -- Anyone in the UK wanna join forces on these. I am interested in the Alpha. So who wants the rest ? Dan From James at jdfogg.com Sun Oct 9 06:50:43 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 07:50:43 -0400 Subject: Archival storage Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> > This whole discussion about the volatility of storage reminds > me of a conversation I had recently with a friend who's a > professional archivist. I asked her what medium was used for > archival storage--CD-ROM, DVD, etc.? > > Paper. No ifs ands or buts about it. Sorry to steal your thread, but... I have been talking with my state's historical archiving group. They are very interested in some form of digital media for archiving, and are now aware that paper (and microform) still offer the best solutions. They are back to the issue of digital archiving for a new reason, space. They would like to have some form of high density storage (higher than paper) and they can accommodate a shorter shelf life if they can get it into the 10+ year range. They are exploring a digitization program with long-term remote storage of the original material in a storage facility (off-line storage if you will), and a technology refresh program to re-format the digital storage as mediums change (like the recent move from CD-ROM to DVD-ROM). Does anyone know if there are optical formats that can reliably deliver 10 year shelf-life? How does one achieve it (different types of cd-r chemistry, using cd-rom, etc)? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 9 08:25:29 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 09:25:29 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IO300ECWH9RGN63@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> A simpler way to beat the only one floppy problem. Find a PCI floppy/IDE card and disable the onboard controller. Simple fix. I used that fix at work to solve a problem mother board that lost all floppy control due to lightining/power transient. Since everything else worked and I needed to get to other problem systems that was a good fix. Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Oct 9 09:46:14 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:46:14 -0500 Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: <20051008135021.35275.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051008135021.35275.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051009094614.779fbf3e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 06:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Chris M wrote: > a scholar and a gentleman. I even considered building > my own, though not sure if MM made the artwork > available. Was put off by the fact that the board has > 7 layers according to the article. If anyone is > knowledgeable enough of pcb production - is it > possible to make a 7 layer board w/o special > equipment/materials? Why did it even need 7 layers? > How many layers were did the IBM PC mobo have? I know > for a fact that the RE robot puter (80188) mobo had 2 > sides (top and bottom, no sandwich). > --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org I remember wanting to build one, too. Now I have one. I wonder if there would be enough interest and/or resources to produce a new batch of the boards for it? It would be an expensive undertaking. For one-off purposes, I suspect it would be cheaper and less work to just make a wirewrap version. It wouldn't be that hard to do a good job at that, using the existing layout from the PC board version as a starting point, and laying in a good grounding/power infrastructure before wire-wrapping the data paths. There aren't a lot of 'unobtanium' chips in the MPX-16 design, and it is a nearly completely 'published' work, the schematics spread over three Circuit Cellar columns in Byte, also reprinted in Volume 4 of'Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar' published by McGraw-Hill. The MPX-16 fills an interesting gap in the history of hobbyist computing. In a sense, it was a 'stab' at keeping the personal computer a hobbyist enterprise. By publishing a 'kit' version with hobbyist tweaks and differences (the MPX-16 has dip-switch settings to select 8" floppies, for example) Ciarcia was trying to 'keep it real' for the people accustomed to 'writing code with solder' as he once put it. Another list member described it as 'the Circuit Cellar segment that marked the end of BYTE as a non PC hardware/software magazine.' (woodelf) Looking at all the cool hardware projects that used to get published in Byte, I have to agree. MicroMint didn't cease to exist, of course, and Ciarcia's magazine Circuit Cellar INK has had a long run of truly great projects and articles over the years. Some news about my machine and the particular collection of diskettes that came with it. There are many different copies of CP/M, it appears whomever these disks belonged to either was involved in the porting to the MPX-16 or just tracked it very closely. I brought the machine up yesterday for the first time and it works great. Dual TM-100 disk drives in the 'official' case makes it a most complete system. It boots using the serial console as I haven't yet tried it with a video card. I might never 'bring it to that point' as that just transforms it into a kinda-PC/XT system. I booted CP/M-86 on it successfully from the disk set marked 'Version 2.1.' There is .A86 source code for most of the CP/M on the three diskette set. Not a lot of third party apps in the 69 diskettes in the collection, but then some of the disks are marked 'BIOS source code' and other low level system things. Seems the original owner was definitely a Systems Programmer. Then I thought I would try DOS so I took my stock (actually an original) IBM PC-DOS 1.0 diskette and it booted perfectly. It boots much faster than an IBM-PC, probably because I didn't observe it doing any kind of a memory check. I duplicated the PC-DOS 1.0 diskette (shouldn't have even _needed_ to use the original in this day and age) and then also booted PC-DOS 1.1. 1.1 boots fine, too. Later versions wouldn't work, obviously because they require double sided diskettes. (back in the day I upgraded my father's PC-1 system to double sided diskettes when he wanted to upgrade to DOS 2.1) The biggest limitation in running DOS on the machine is that any app that writes directly to video I/O or does any Video functionality at all won't work. But it's mostly born to be a CP/M-86 system in any event. There aren't a lot of apps on the large collection of disks. There is some sort of a word processor, but when I brought it up it was obviously designed for a particular terminal as it flooded the screen with a mess and I couldn't get out of it at all without rebooting the machine. There are some other small apps on one diskette with source code, including a term emulator and what appears to be a low-level Diskette editing utility. All in all, the 69 diskette collection is a real jumble of things. There are multiple copies of most of everything, including MicroMint originals and 'working' copies. Several of the MicroMint originals have 'master' written where there should be a serial number penned in by hand on the label. One diskette says 'CP/M-86 for the Micromint MPX-16 2/17/83' all written out in longhand like it might be the very first release and/or even the original master. It's an exciting collection of diskettes and after some organizing the images will be shared. There are also a few 'PC' related diskettes. A preliminary demo version (apparently bundled with PC World Magazine) of Microsoft Word on an official Microsoft diskette. It works, with a 'demo' splash screen, on a modern PC. There is a disk marked 'CP/M-86 1.0 for the IBM-PC' that also boots properly on a modern PC (one of my ubiquetous Dell Optiplex Pentium 3 machines- the one now with a 5-1/4" disk) There is a diskette marked PC-DOS that boots to a diagnostic menu and won't proceed as I don't have the 'diagnostic disk' to insert. Well, enough about the MPX-16 and it's bundle of diskettes. > wrote: > > On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 07:29:40 -0700 (PDT) > > Chris M wrote: > > > > > dont have one, but want one. I hope youll make > disk > > > images available. > > > > I certainly will. A list member has extended a warm > welcome to the idea > > of me imaging my disks and putting them on his site. > More to follow > > when they're all imaged and online. > > > > > --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > > > wrote: > > > > Does anybody else on the list have an MPX-16 > system? > > > I recently > > > > acquired one from a list member and am wondering > how > > > many of these > > > > systems still exist. I have a large > (relatively) > > > collection of > > > > diskettes with mine. > > > > > > > > The MPX-16, for those not familiar with it, was > > > published as a project > > > > in Steve Ciarcia's 'Circuit Cellar' column in > Byte > > > magazine. It was a > > > > three part 'construction' article and the > machine > > > was sold by MicroMint > > > > for a time. What I've heard is that about 500 > > > machines in total were > > > > produced. > > > > > > > > It's an early 'IBM Compatible' in that they > designed > > > it to be similar to > > > > the PC, but only to a certain degree. It uses a > > > serial console rather > > > > than keyboard/display adapter, and it runs > CP/M-86 > > > and supposedly MS-DOS > > > > though I don't have DOS diskettes for mine. It > has > > > ISA slots and a > > > > similar architecture to the IBM-PC, coming out > of > > > that early era before > > > > there were PC clones from the likes of Compaq. > > > > > > > > I'm curious of how many other MPX-16 systems > have > > > survived to today. > > > > There isn't a lot about it online. I can share > what > > > information I have, > > > > as I have manuals and docs with my system. I'm > > > interested in hearing > > > > from other people with this machine. > > > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Music Unlimited > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Oct 9 09:52:22 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:52:22 -0500 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> References: <200510080825.j988PgPn047793@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> Message-ID: <20051009095222.621c9bcc.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 14:25:41 -0700 Tim Mann wrote: > On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 03:25:49 -0500 (CDT), cctech-request at classiccmp.org > wrote: > > Message: 22 > > Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:51:09 -0700 > > From: jim stephens > > Subject: Re: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I am still slowly getting over my long painful struggle > > > to get two floppy drives enabled on a Dell Optiplex system. > > > There's support for a second floppy in the BIOS but it appears the > > > hardware support is entirely missing. I had to just do away with > > > the 3-1/2" disk to get a 5-1/4" disk installed in one of my (many, > > > since I get them for < $5 all kitted out with Pentium III > > > processors) beloved (!!??!!) Optiplex boxes. Was there THAT much > > > savings in not including hardware support for two floppies, DELL? > > > Why not patch settings for the second drive out of the BIOS so we > > > don't pound our heads against the wall trying?? > > > > > > I'm curious about the comment about second drive support missing. > > > I > > am curious why the addition of a proper multiheaded cable doesnt > > fix this? > > > > they actually dont drive the drive select in the cable? > > I built a new machine around an EPoX 9NPA nForce 4 motherboard and > found out to my surprise that it was only capable of running one > floppy drive. In my case the BIOS provides no way to enable a second > drive, so at least it's consistent. Having a BIOS that lets you put > in settings for a second drive when the hardware doesn't support it > would really be a screwup. > > EPoX makes schematics available, so I downloaded one and studied it to > try to confirm whether there really was no way to get a second drive > to work. It turns out the super-IO chip they use to run the floppies > and several other system functions (fan control, temperature sensors, > serial and parallel ports, etc.) has only a limited number of pins. > Several have multiple functions, and the motherboard designer has to > select which function he wants to use for each pin and do without the > others. EPoX chose to use the pins that could have driven the second > floppy's motor-on and drive select for other functions (I forget what > offhand). So those pins are no-connects on the floppy cable. > > As a small compensation, it's possible to reconfigure the parallel > port as an external floppy connector. If you do that, you can put two > drives on it. (Whoopee.) > > This all is not a huge deal for me since I can pop a Catweasel card > into the machine if I really want more floppies in it, but it's a bit > annoying. > One thing I am wondering is if an 8-bit floppy controller card (the ones from the PC-XT generation, which didn't have floppy IO on the motherboard) could be modified (if needed) and contrived to work in a more modern system that still has the ISA bus. If the particular I/O locations are being used, simple cuts and adds could re-direct the I/O ports. This would give the enterprising programmer a 765 controller with relevant hardware to plug additional drives into. The original PC-PC/XT controller is fully documented in the TechRef, and even has all the cabling in place to support four floppies. > -- > Tim Mann tim at tim-mann.org http://tim-mann.org/ From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Oct 9 09:53:52 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 10:53:52 -0400 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 08 Oct 2005 17:39:48 PDT." Message-ID: <200510091453.j99ErqTX027527@mwave.heeltoe.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >I haven't yet seen a floppy disk (and I have some probably as old as 30 >years by now) that have shed oxide. "back in the day" (say, 1980), I used to see it all the time if I ran an system in an un-airconditioned room on the second floor in august. I'd get read errors and pull out the floppy and there would be a literal clear ring where the head had removed the oxide. It seemed some mfg's were more prone to this than others. I susped the temp in the room was over 90F and the media & binder just plan gave up. I'd never do that today but at the time I was young, foolish and inexperienced. (now I'm just the last two :-) I've only seen it in very high temps (>90F), but I have seen it. -brad From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Oct 9 10:00:52 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:00:52 -0500 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <0IO300ECWH9RGN63@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IO300ECWH9RGN63@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051009100052.57496ce4.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 09:25:29 -0400 Allison wrote: > > A simpler way to beat the only one floppy problem. Find a PCI > floppy/IDE card and disable the onboard controller. Simple fix. > > I used that fix at work to solve a problem mother board that lost all > floppy control due to lightining/power transient. Since everything > else worked and I needed to get to other problem systems that was a > good fix. > > Allison > An even better 'fix' would be to disable just the floppy interface on the motherboard and use an ISA SCSI interface (i.e. a 1542) of the generation when there were versions with a floppy interface onboard (from systems that had NO 'AT Hard Disk Controler' hardware in them at all back in the era when '286 motherboards didn't have onboard disk I/O.) In fact, I have at least one such a card here and should give that a try. (added benefit would be having SCSI I/O in the system) From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Oct 9 10:05:22 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:05:22 -0500 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: References: <0INX00DPLXRC1P12@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051009100522.78d10955.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > > > For 8" stuff the prognosis is not so bad. However the media is so > > old that may be more of a problem with oxide shedding. > > I haven't yet seen a floppy disk (and I have some probably as old as > 30 years by now) that have shed oxide. > Somebody probably already threw away the ones from low-quality vendors that shed oxide. (they have had 30 years to do so) Seriously, this is a phenomenon that leads to the 'they sure don't make things the way they used to' opinion. The old stuff that was junk doesn't survive (i.e. all the Sanyo 555 PC's and awful middle-era Macintoshes get shredded,) so we all get the impression that the good stuff that has 'survived' is representative of everything made 'back then.' > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ][ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sun Oct 9 10:12:05 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:12:05 +0100 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <200510091453.j99ErqTX027527@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200510091453.j99ErqTX027527@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1128870725.26017.31.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Sun, 2005-10-09 at 10:53 -0400, Brad Parker wrote: > I'd get read errors and pull out the floppy and there would be a literal > clear ring where the head had removed the oxide. One of my first projects after uni c. 1984 was to make a controller for a metal forming line. We used a Little Big Board (IIRC) with an 8" SSSD drive, an ADM-3A and Turbo Pascal! Just before I moved to England in '94 we got a call from the company to say that they had sold the line and it was all going to be dismantled, but they needed it working for another month, and it had just stopped booting up. Sure enough, the disk had a nice transparent ring on it. Amazingly, they managed to find the backup disk we had given them in '84, and we got it going again. I never heard any more. I'm not sure whether the wear took place only at boot time (since the drive wasn't used at other times) or whether the head wasn't unloaded enough to prevent some wear. 10 years for one disk isn't too bad. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 9 10:14:31 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:14:31 -0500 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <20051009100052.57496ce4.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <0IO300ECWH9RGN63@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20051009100052.57496ce4.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200510091014.31801.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 09 October 2005 10:00, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 09:25:29 -0400 > > Allison wrote: > > A simpler way to beat the only one floppy problem. Find a PCI > > floppy/IDE card and disable the onboard controller. Simple fix. > > > > I used that fix at work to solve a problem mother board that lost > > all floppy control due to lightining/power transient. Since > > everything else worked and I needed to get to other problem systems > > that was a good fix. > > > > Allison > > An even better 'fix' would be to disable just the floppy interface on > the motherboard and use an ISA SCSI interface (i.e. a 1542) of the > generation when there were versions with a floppy interface onboard This doesn't work well when you have a recent enough machine that it doesn't have ISA slots. Heck, I've got UNIX boxes from 1996 (getting nearly on topic now) that have PCI but no ISA slots. Though, I'll have to say that I've never seen a PCI card with a floppy controller on it (well, um, other than the Catweasel, of course). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 9 10:29:42 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:29:42 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IO300L1HN0QVKV2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 09:52:22 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >One thing I am wondering is if an 8-bit floppy controller card (the ones >from the PC-XT generation, which didn't have floppy IO on the >motherboard) could be modified (if needed) and contrived to work in a >more modern system that still has the ISA bus. If the particular I/O >locations are being used, simple cuts and adds could re-direct the I/O >ports. This would give the enterprising programmer a 765 controller >with relevant hardware to plug additional drives into. The original >PC-PC/XT controller is fully documented in the TechRef, and even has all >the cabling in place to support four floppies. Gee I posted about doing just that. If the machine has ISA there is no need to mod the card. Just disable (in bios) the mainboard level FDC and plug in the ISA unit and go. Also PCI cards work nice for that. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 9 10:35:08 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:35:08 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IO300EIGN9SGPH3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 10:00:52 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 09:25:29 -0400 >Allison wrote: > >> >> A simpler way to beat the only one floppy problem. Find a PCI >> floppy/IDE card and disable the onboard controller. Simple fix. >> >> I used that fix at work to solve a problem mother board that lost all >> floppy control due to lightining/power transient. Since everything >> else worked and I needed to get to other problem systems that was a >> good fix. >> >> Allison >> > >An even better 'fix' would be to disable just the floppy interface on >the motherboard and use an ISA SCSI interface (i.e. a 1542) of the >generation when there were versions with a floppy interface onboard >(from systems that had NO 'AT Hard Disk Controler' hardware in them at >all back in the era when '286 motherboards didn't have onboard disk >I/O.) In fact, I have at least one such a card here and should give >that a try. (added benefit would be having SCSI I/O in the system) Is there are reading problem here? From the second sentence: "and disable the onboard controller" Was that clear enough? I spent five years maintaining PCs (over 40 of them) for a small company and I did a lot of hacking and fixing to keep old hardware going to not bust the budget. I've taken the newest of the new and disabled the onboard (on mainboard) functions to plug in better or prefered interfaces be they FDC, Sound of Video to avoid funky drivers or broken driver support. Why is a simple FDC such a big deal? Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 9 10:39:24 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:39:24 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IO3007B5NGWD015@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: Patrick Finnegan > Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 10:14:31 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Sunday 09 October 2005 10:00, Scott Stevens wrote: >> On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 09:25:29 -0400 >> >> Allison wrote: >> > A simpler way to beat the only one floppy problem. Find a PCI >> > floppy/IDE card and disable the onboard controller. Simple fix. >> > >> > I used that fix at work to solve a problem mother board that lost >> > all floppy control due to lightining/power transient. Since >> > everything else worked and I needed to get to other problem systems >> > that was a good fix. >> > >> > Allison >> >> An even better 'fix' would be to disable just the floppy interface on >> the motherboard and use an ISA SCSI interface (i.e. a 1542) of the >> generation when there were versions with a floppy interface onboard > >This doesn't work well when you have a recent enough machine that it >doesn't have ISA slots. Heck, I've got UNIX boxes from 1996 (getting >nearly on topic now) that have PCI but no ISA slots. > >Though, I'll have to say that I've never seen a PCI card with a floppy >controller on it (well, um, other than the Catweasel, of course). I have a few and JDRmicrdevices still sells them. Most hoever are not plain FDC though I have a few of those too. There are PCI FDC/IDE/serial combo cards that that can have any of all of those functions disabled. Around here it's not hard to find older cards at used computer stores. Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Oct 9 11:00:30 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:00:30 -0500 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <200510091014.31801.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0IO300ECWH9RGN63@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20051009100052.57496ce4.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510091014.31801.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20051009110030.6bb202c7.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:14:31 -0500 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sunday 09 October 2005 10:00, Scott Stevens wrote: > > On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 09:25:29 -0400 > > > > Allison wrote: > > > A simpler way to beat the only one floppy problem. Find a PCI > > > floppy/IDE card and disable the onboard controller. Simple fix. > > > > > > I used that fix at work to solve a problem mother board that lost > > > all floppy control due to lightining/power transient. Since > > > everything else worked and I needed to get to other problem > > > systems that was a good fix. > > > > > > Allison > > > > An even better 'fix' would be to disable just the floppy interface > > on the motherboard and use an ISA SCSI interface (i.e. a 1542) of > > the generation when there were versions with a floppy interface > > onboard > > This doesn't work well when you have a recent enough machine that it > doesn't have ISA slots. Heck, I've got UNIX boxes from 1996 (getting > nearly on topic now) that have PCI but no ISA slots. > Well, PCI was and is perceived as a 'good thing' and was never PC-specific. It's no surprise that UNIX vendors adopted PCI but never touched ISA. (didn't SGI have ISA, or maybe EISA slots, in some of their workstations?) I don't have any machines 'recent' enough that they don't have ISA slots, for the record. And, in fact, the particular Dell Optiplexes that I continue to drone on about have a LOT of ISA slots if the motherboard is installed in the mini-tower case. More, even, than we had available on a stock PC-AT once you tied up a bunch of the slots with disk controller, video, network card, etc. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Oct 9 11:04:39 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:04:39 -0500 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <0IO300L1HN0QVKV2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IO300L1HN0QVKV2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051009110439.67792dc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:29:42 -0400 Allison wrote: > > > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > > From: Scott Stevens > > Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 09:52:22 -0500 > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > > >One thing I am wondering is if an 8-bit floppy controller card (the > >ones from the PC-XT generation, which didn't have floppy IO on the > >motherboard) could be modified (if needed) and contrived to work in a > >more modern system that still has the ISA bus. If the particular I/O > >locations are being used, simple cuts and adds could re-direct the > >I/O ports. This would give the enterprising programmer a 765 > >controller with relevant hardware to plug additional drives into. > >The original PC-PC/XT controller is fully documented in the TechRef, > >and even has all the cabling in place to support four floppies. > > > Gee I posted about doing just that. If the machine has ISA there is > no need to mod the card. Just disable (in bios) the mainboard level > FDC and plug in the ISA unit and go. > But does that work without digging in further? Does a PC/XT-era floppy card replicate a PC-AT diskette controller? I am asking, since I've never tackled such a project. > Also PCI cards work nice for that. > I've never seen a PCI card that had a floppy interface on it. I'm sure they exist. Not in my junkbox, however, and I don't have the schematic diagram for them. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 9 11:03:43 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:03:43 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IO300IESOLG9I72@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:00:30 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> This doesn't work well when you have a recent enough machine that it >> doesn't have ISA slots. Heck, I've got UNIX boxes from 1996 (getting >> nearly on topic now) that have PCI but no ISA slots. >> >Well, PCI was and is perceived as a 'good thing' and was never >PC-specific. It's no surprise that UNIX vendors adopted PCI but never >touched ISA. (didn't SGI have ISA, or maybe EISA slots, in some of >their workstations?) > >I don't have any machines 'recent' enough that they don't have ISA >slots, for the record. And, in fact, the particular Dell Optiplexes >that I continue to drone on about have a LOT of ISA slots if the >motherboard is installed in the mini-tower case. More, even, than we >had available on a stock PC-AT once you tied up a bunch of the slots >with disk controller, video, network card, etc. I've worked with a few machines that had NO ISA slots and the solution was PCI cards as they were available to do the job. With many of the cheaper all_on_one mainboards it was convenient to disable board level resources like video or sound to use a better or more convenient PCI or even ISA board. In some cases I did that avoid the sound system they used because it was impossible to get a good driver for the OS in question at that time. I never regarded that as a big deal or even difficult. Allison From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Oct 9 11:05:15 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:05:15 -0500 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510081913570049.4F6538A7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510091614.j99GEnj8009200@keith.ezwind.net> ... > So, if it's important, paper is THE medium. Maybe it doesn't > have great recording density, but it's pretty permanent as things go. Not much good for executable files. Gil > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 11:06:41 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 09:06:41 -0700 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200510090906410082.525F9AD2@10.0.0.252> On 10/9/2005 at 7:50 AM James Fogg wrote: >Does anyone know if there are optical formats that can reliably deliver >10 year shelf-life? How does one achieve it (different types of cd-r >chemistry, using cd-rom, etc)? (Mindless rambliing) Lawrence Livermore used to have some sort of photographic data storage unit that was pretty unique. I can't even remember the name of the thing, does any recall it? (Back to topic) There are manufacturers of CD-R media who claim 100-300 year shelf life, a claim that's probably a bit overblown, but might be candidates for a 10 year life. Mitsui is one of those making such a claim (I've always had great results with their media): http://www.mediasupply.com/mtc80lsgos-100.html They're not cheap, but they're better than the average "a whole bunch for nearly nothing" stuff. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 11:12:47 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 09:12:47 -0700 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <20051009110439.67792dc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <0IO300L1HN0QVKV2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <20051009110439.67792dc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200510090912470539.5265324B@10.0.0.252> On 10/9/2005 at 11:04 AM Scott Stevens wrote: >I've never seen a PCI card that had a floppy interface on it. I'm sure >they exist. Not in my junkbox, however, and I don't have the schematic >diagram for them. And there's a good reason for that. The PCI bus has no access to legacy 8237-type DMA, so legacy driver code would not work on such a beast. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 9 11:29:07 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:29:07 -0500 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <0IO3007B5NGWD015@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IO3007B5NGWD015@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510091129.07642.pat@computer-refuge.org> Allison declared on Sunday 09 October 2005 10:39 am: > >Though, I'll have to say that I've never seen a PCI card with a > > floppy controller on it (well, um, other than the Catweasel, of > > course). > > I have a few and JDRmicrdevices still sells them. They don't list any on their website. They have ISA floppy controllers, and PCI IDE controllers, but no PCI floppy controllers. In fact, I can't find any from a google search or eBay search either. I guess it's possible that they have existed, but I can't find any reference to anyone actually *selling* them. Can you come up with a link to one? Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 11:31:37 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 09:31:37 -0700 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510091614.j99GEnj8009200@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510091614.j99GEnj8009200@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200510090931370301.5276733B@10.0.0.252> On 10/9/2005 at 11:05 AM Gil Carrick wrote: >Not much good for executable files. > >Gil Whatever happened to "paperbytes"? :) Chuck From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 9 11:39:32 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: <20051006231654.31f83c66.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Does anybody else on the list have an MPX-16 system? I recently > acquired one from a list member and am wondering how many of these > systems still exist. I have a large (relatively) collection of > diskettes with mine. I think I have two, one of which I got from Fred. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 9 11:44:35 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:44:35 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IO300B8QQHI0QZ1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:04:39 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Gee I posted about doing just that. If the machine has ISA there is >> no need to mod the card. Just disable (in bios) the mainboard level >> FDC and plug in the ISA unit and go. >> > >But does that work without digging in further? Does a PC/XT-era floppy >card replicate a PC-AT diskette controller? I am asking, since I've >never tackled such a project. It did for me. Though I had one really old XT class card that was so crippled 1.44 3.5" was out of it's range. Most of the later smaller ISA-8 cards were never a problem. >> Also PCI cards work nice for that. >> > >I've never seen a PCI card that had a floppy interface on it. I'm sure >they exist. Not in my junkbox, however, and I don't have the schematic >diagram for them. I must have a bigger junk box. I have two FDC/IDE (jumpers for disables) and several FDC/IDE/Serial/parallel Combo cards for PCI. They came out of PCI machines that predated the everything_on_one boards. JDRmicrodevices still sells some of them. Even if you can't (never ran into one) disable the on_main_board function many of the older cards can be set up for secondary FDC, IDE and so on. Then you may have to give up using the latest version of XP too. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 9 11:46:10 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:46:10 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IO300EK2QK6GHO3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 09:12:47 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 10/9/2005 at 11:04 AM Scott Stevens wrote: > >>I've never seen a PCI card that had a floppy interface on it. I'm sure >>they exist. Not in my junkbox, however, and I don't have the schematic >>diagram for them. > >And there's a good reason for that. The PCI bus has no access to legacy 8237-type DMA, so legacy driver code would not work on such a beast. Any PCI at the slowest was 33mhz, so PIO will do a floppy no problem. Allison From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Oct 9 11:47:02 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:47:02 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <200510090912470539.5265324B@10.0.0.252> References: <20051009110439.67792dc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> <0IO300L1HN0QVKV2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <20051009110439.67792dc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051009124505.04909460@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 10/9/2005 at 11:04 AM Scott Stevens wrote: > > >I've never seen a PCI card that had a floppy interface on it. I'm sure > >they exist. Not in my junkbox, however, and I don't have the schematic > >diagram for them. > >And there's a good reason for that. The PCI bus has no access to legacy >8237-type DMA, so legacy driver code would not work on such a beast. I've seen several BIOSs can be set up for that - you can set the IRQ & DMA on a per-slot basis. However, I'll admit that it's a crapshoot... you'd want to make sure that the mobo supports what you want to do. ;-) I'm also *not* going to say that WindersXP will actually support it, as you *might* have to disable Plug-N-Pray to get it to work. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 9 11:56:00 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:56:00 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IO3005RXR0J62V2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: Patrick Finnegan > Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:29:07 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Allison declared on Sunday 09 October 2005 10:39 am: >> >Though, I'll have to say that I've never seen a PCI card with a >> > floppy controller on it (well, um, other than the Catweasel, of >> > course). >> >> I have a few and JDRmicrdevices still sells them. > >They don't list any on their website. They have ISA floppy controllers, >and PCI IDE controllers, but no PCI floppy controllers. Never seen much of what they sell on the website because they list only volume sellers there but the hard copy catalog listed them. >I guess it's possible that they have existed, but I can't find any >reference to anyone actually *selling* them. Can you come up with a >link to one? Not a problem for me. I have spares. Maybe they discontined then since 2004. Next step if ISA is out is a USB to floppy thing. Then again maybe you could just scrounge an older machine that isn't so crippled. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 9 12:03:25 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 13:03:25 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IO3007AVRCXD085@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: Roger Merchberger > Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:47:02 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >>On 10/9/2005 at 11:04 AM Scott Stevens wrote: >> >> >I've never seen a PCI card that had a floppy interface on it. I'm sure >> >they exist. Not in my junkbox, however, and I don't have the schematic >> >diagram for them. >> >>And there's a good reason for that. The PCI bus has no access to legacy >>8237-type DMA, so legacy driver code would not work on such a beast. > >I've seen several BIOSs can be set up for that - you can set the IRQ & DMA >on a per-slot basis. > >However, I'll admit that it's a crapshoot... you'd want to make sure that >the mobo supports what you want to do. ;-) I'm also *not* going to say that >WindersXP will actually support it, as you *might* have to disable >Plug-N-Pray to get it to work. > >Laterz, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger >-- Roger, you hit the nail on the head. If you want to use XP and the latest PentiumMMV at 200ghz and read old media it'seems there is an incongreuity there. It would appear more reasonable to use an older less underloaded machine and a more flexible version of winders for such a task. For tasks like this where the interface is going to be "unusual" XP, win2000 and NT are likely not the best choice as they are known to poorly or not support untested/certified hardware. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 12:09:39 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 10:09:39 -0700 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051009124505.04909460@mail.30below.com> References: <20051009110439.67792dc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> <0IO300L1HN0QVKV2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <20051009110439.67792dc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20051009124505.04909460@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200510091009390035.5299442A@10.0.0.252> On 10/9/2005 at 12:47 PM Roger Merchberger wrote: > >However, I'll admit that it's a crapshoot... you'd want to make sure that >the mobo supports what you want to do. ;-) I'm also *not* going to say >that >WindersXP will actually support it, as you *might* have to disable >Plug-N-Pray to get it to work. Oddly, Winders XP just "might" support such a card, if the card has reasonable ACPI or PnP capabilities and it otherwise looks enough like a legacy floppy controller. DMA is abstracted sufficiently in the NT kernel interface that the floppy code doesn't worry too much about what form it takes. I don't believe that the generic NT floppy driver supports PIO access in lieu of DMA, however. (I'm bundling XP/2000 under the heading of "NT" because there's not a whole lot of difference between the flavors at that level. Remember that betas of 2000 were called "NT 5.0"). Where you'd have some problems would be with the VxD floppy support under Win9x. But then, you should be able to force BIOS access by disabling or deleting the floppy port driver. Where you'd have problems is with MS-DOS utilities that access the drives directly and expect to program an 8237 DMA controller. Many such utilities have DMA 2/IRQ 6 hardwired. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 12:17:13 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 10:17:13 -0700 Subject: Ringout on Overland Data TX-8/TX-16 cable? In-Reply-To: <20051008221704.A5146@kallisti.com> References: <200510090324.j993OFn4067506@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051008221704.A5146@kallisti.com> Message-ID: <200510091017130282.52A0328D@10.0.0.252> Many thanks, Allan! Cheers, Chuck On 10/8/2005 at 10:17 PM Allan Hessenflow wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Does anyone have the wiring details for the Pertec-to-Overland Data >> TX-8 or TX-16 cable used on OD's non-SCSI 9-track equipment? It's >> got a D-sub 62-pin male connector on one end and two 50 conductor female >> edge connectors on the other labeled P1 and P2. > >I rung one out, here is my documentation: > > >The cable does not appear to contain twisted pairs, so which wire is used >for which signal below is probably completely arbitrary. The wire >assignment shown is from an Overland Data factory wired cable. > >The cable shield is connected to the D connector shell; the other end >of the shield does not appear to contact anything. > > >/* Sorted by Overland side */ > >1 orange/red J1-a >2 brown/grey J1-Z >3 brown/violet J1-Y >4 yellow/red J1-X >5 violet/brown J1-W >6 grey/brown J1-V >7 black/white J1-U >8 green/black J1-T >9 black/green J1-S >10 green/red J1-R >11 black/orange J1-P >12 black/blue J1-N >13 violet/red J2-N >14 green/white J1-L >15 white/black J1-K >16 brown/yellow J2-K >17 red/green J1-F >18 blue/black J1-E >19 green/brown J1-D >20 orange/black J1-C >21 red/black J1-B > >22 black/brown J2-Y >23 red/brown J2-X >24 white/grey J2-W >25 white/yellow J2-V >26 orange/white J2-U >27 white/red J2-T >28 orange/brown J2-S >29 grey/black J2-R >30 red/white J2-P >31 yellow/black J2-M >32 grey/red J2-L >33 black/yellow J2-J >34 white/blue J2-H >35 brown/black J2-F >36 orange/yellow J2-E >37 white/violet J2-D >38 white/brown J2-C >39 brown/red J2-B >40 violet/white J2-A >41 brown/orange J1-A >42 yellow/orange J2-2 > >43 red/orange J2-a >44 black/grey J2-Z >45 red/blue J2-b >46 red/grey J1-b >47 red/yellow J2-c >48 brown/white J1-c >49 green/orange J1-M >50 violet/black J2-1 >51 blue/brown J2-24 >52 orange/green J2-20 >53 grey/white J2-16 >54 yellow/white J2-13 >55 white/orange J2-9 >56 black/red J2-5 >57 red/violet J1-24 >58 yellow/brown J1-20 >59 blue/white J1-16 >60 black/violet J1-10 >61 white/green J1-6 >62 brown/green J1-2 > >nc nc J1-1 >nc nc J1-11 >nc nc J1-12 >nc nc J1-13 >nc nc J1-14 >nc nc J1-15 >nc nc J1-17 >nc nc J1-18 >nc nc J1-19 >nc nc J1-21 >nc nc J1-22 >nc nc J1-23 >nc nc J1-25 >nc nc J1-3 >nc nc J1-4 >nc nc J1-5 >nc nc J1-7 >nc nc J1-8 >nc nc J1-9 >nc nc J1-H >nc nc J1-J >nc nc J2-10 >nc nc J2-11 >nc nc J2-12 >nc nc J2-14 >nc nc J2-15 >nc nc J2-17 >nc nc J2-18 >nc nc J2-19 >nc nc J2-21 >nc nc J2-22 >nc nc J2-23 >nc nc J2-25 >nc nc J2-3 >nc nc J2-4 >nc nc J2-6 >nc nc J2-7 >nc nc J2-8 > > > >/* sorted by Pertec side */ > >nc nc J1-1 >62 brown/green J1-2 >nc nc J1-3 >nc nc J1-4 >nc nc J1-5 >61 white/green J1-6 >nc nc J1-7 >nc nc J1-8 >nc nc J1-9 >60 black/violet J1-10 >nc nc J1-11 >nc nc J1-12 >nc nc J1-13 >nc nc J1-14 >nc nc J1-15 >59 blue/white J1-16 >nc nc J1-17 >nc nc J1-18 >nc nc J1-19 >58 yellow/brown J1-20 >nc nc J1-21 >nc nc J1-22 >nc nc J1-23 >57 red/violet J1-24 >nc nc J1-25 > >41 brown/orange J1-A >21 red/black J1-B >20 orange/black J1-C >19 green/brown J1-D >18 blue/black J1-E >17 red/green J1-F >nc nc J1-H >nc nc J1-J >15 white/black J1-K >14 green/white J1-L >49 green/orange J1-M >12 black/blue J1-N >11 black/orange J1-P >10 green/red J1-R >9 black/green J1-S >8 green/black J1-T >7 black/white J1-U >6 grey/brown J1-V >5 violet/brown J1-W >4 yellow/red J1-X >3 brown/violet J1-Y >2 brown/grey J1-Z >1 orange/red J1-a >46 red/grey J1-b >48 brown/white J1-c > >50 violet/black J2-1 >42 yellow/orange J2-2 >nc nc J2-3 >nc nc J2-4 >56 black/red J2-5 >nc nc J2-6 >nc nc J2-7 >nc nc J2-8 >55 white/orange J2-9 >nc nc J2-10 >nc nc J2-11 >nc nc J2-12 >54 yellow/white J2-13 >nc nc J2-14 >nc nc J2-15 >53 grey/white J2-16 >nc nc J2-17 >nc nc J2-18 >nc nc J2-19 >52 orange/green J2-20 >nc nc J2-21 >nc nc J2-22 >nc nc J2-23 >51 blue/brown J2-24 >nc nc J2-25 > >40 violet/white J2-A >39 brown/red J2-B >38 white/brown J2-C >37 white/violet J2-D >36 orange/yellow J2-E >35 brown/black J2-F >34 white/blue J2-H >33 black/yellow J2-J >16 brown/yellow J2-K >32 grey/red J2-L >31 yellow/black J2-M >13 violet/red J2-N >30 red/white J2-P >29 grey/black J2-R >28 orange/brown J2-S >27 white/red J2-T >26 orange/white J2-U >25 white/yellow J2-V >24 white/grey J2-W >23 red/brown J2-X >22 black/brown J2-Y >44 black/grey J2-Z >43 red/orange J2-a >45 red/blue J2-b >47 red/yellow J2-c > > >allan > >-- >Allan N. Hessenflow allanh at kallisti.com From bernd at kopriva.de Sun Oct 9 12:25:51 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 19:25:51 +0200 Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: <20051006231654.31f83c66.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051009163804.5CA7439130@linux.local> I acquired an empty board some weeks ago from eBay ... ... hope to find some time to collect the necessary parts and build it in near future. Ciao Bernd On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 23:16:54 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: >Does anybody else on the list have an MPX-16 system? I recently >acquired one from a list member and am wondering how many of these >systems still exist. I have a large (relatively) collection of >diskettes with mine. > >The MPX-16, for those not familiar with it, was published as a project >in Steve Ciarcia's 'Circuit Cellar' column in Byte magazine. It was a >three part 'construction' article and the machine was sold by MicroMint >for a time. What I've heard is that about 500 machines in total were >produced. > >It's an early 'IBM Compatible' in that they designed it to be similar to >the PC, but only to a certain degree. It uses a serial console rather >than keyboard/display adapter, and it runs CP/M-86 and supposedly MS-DOS >though I don't have DOS diskettes for mine. It has ISA slots and a >similar architecture to the IBM-PC, coming out of that early era before >there were PC clones from the likes of Compaq. > >I'm curious of how many other MPX-16 systems have survived to today. >There isn't a lot about it online. I can share what information I have, >as I have manuals and docs with my system. I'm interested in hearing >from other people with this machine. > >Scott > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Oct 9 12:36:34 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:36:34 -0500 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <0IO3007AVRCXD085@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IO3007AVRCXD085@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051009123634.4e2dac55.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 13:03:25 -0400 Allison wrote: > > > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > > From: Roger Merchberger > > Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:47:02 -0400 > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > > >Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: > >>On 10/9/2005 at 11:04 AM Scott Stevens wrote: > >> > >> >I've never seen a PCI card that had a floppy interface on it. I'm > >sure> >they exist. Not in my junkbox, however, and I don't have the > >schematic> >diagram for them. > >> > >>And there's a good reason for that. The PCI bus has no access to > >legacy >8237-type DMA, so legacy driver code would not work on such a > >beast. > > > >I've seen several BIOSs can be set up for that - you can set the IRQ > >& DMA on a per-slot basis. > > > >However, I'll admit that it's a crapshoot... you'd want to make sure > >that the mobo supports what you want to do. ;-) I'm also *not* going > >to say that WindersXP will actually support it, as you *might* have > >to disable Plug-N-Pray to get it to work. > > > >Laterz, > >Roger "Merch" Merchberger > >-- > > Roger, you hit the nail on the head. If you want to use XP and the > latest PentiumMMV at 200ghz and read old media it'seems there is an > incongreuity there. It would appear more reasonable to use an older > less underloaded machine and a more flexible version of winders for > such a task. > Or the best version of all, i.e. one you can 'snap off and throw away' like Windows 1/2/3 on DOS. For my new data-reading system I've cobbled up, I have it running Windows 98, but tweaked it to not boot to Windows at all, just wait at the command prompt. Then after I've created images and what-not, I let it go the rest of the way in so I can copy the image files created over the network. I don't have a 486 system up and going for these purposes mainly because at present I sit at a 'console' that is a 4-way KVM switch, and it's simpler just to plug everything into this one desk. Most '486 systems use the older non-PS/2 keyboard connector. (adapters are available, etc. etc.) It's 'convenience' and 'using what is lying around' that is the root of this whole thread. A more sensible person would stop messing with systems that only support one floppy drive. > For tasks like this where the interface is going to be "unusual" XP, > win2000 and NT are likely not the best choice as they are known to > poorly or not support untested/certified hardware. > I can't think of anything at all where XP is the suitable choice. Well, maybe a preinstall where the manufacturer has not gone out of their way to provide driver support for anything else. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Oct 9 12:38:26 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:38:26 -0500 Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: <20051009163804.5CA7439130@linux.local> References: <20051006231654.31f83c66.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051009163804.5CA7439130@linux.local> Message-ID: <20051009123826.677a1667.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 19:25:51 +0200 "Bernd Kopriva" wrote: > I acquired an empty board some weeks ago from eBay ... > ... hope to find some time to collect the necessary parts and build it > in near future. > > Ciao Bernd > Hopefully there will be an archive of system software up and available for you to download by the time you get that board populated. I'm working towards that, anyhow. > On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 23:16:54 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > > >Does anybody else on the list have an MPX-16 system? I recently > >acquired one from a list member and am wondering how many of these > >systems still exist. I have a large (relatively) collection of > >diskettes with mine. > > > >The MPX-16, for those not familiar with it, was published as a > >project in Steve Ciarcia's 'Circuit Cellar' column in Byte magazine. > >It was a three part 'construction' article and the machine was sold > >by MicroMint for a time. What I've heard is that about 500 machines > >in total were produced. > > > >It's an early 'IBM Compatible' in that they designed it to be similar > >to the PC, but only to a certain degree. It uses a serial console > >rather than keyboard/display adapter, and it runs CP/M-86 and > >supposedly MS-DOS though I don't have DOS diskettes for mine. It has > >ISA slots and a similar architecture to the IBM-PC, coming out of > >that early era before there were PC clones from the likes of Compaq. > > > >I'm curious of how many other MPX-16 systems have survived to today. > >There isn't a lot about it online. I can share what information I > >have, as I have manuals and docs with my system. I'm interested in > >hearing from other people with this machine. > > > >Scott > > > > > > > From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 9 12:32:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TS computers (was PalmOS no more?) In-Reply-To: <4346FD9F.80001@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > As far as T/S units, there's the 1000 (ZX-81), the 1500 (81 on roids), the > > 2048, basically a 48K ZX Spectrum with better video > > Cameron, have you ever seen a US-made TS2048? To my knowledge they > never made it into production. I found mine in a local thrift store. I don't know where it was made though. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Oct 9 12:38:15 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 13:38:15 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <200510091009390035.5299442A@10.0.0.252> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051009124505.04909460@mail.30below.com> <20051009110439.67792dc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> <0IO300L1HN0QVKV2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <20051009110439.67792dc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20051009124505.04909460@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051009133449.0498c6a8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >(I'm bundling XP/2000 under the heading of "NT" because there's not a >whole lot of difference between the flavors at that level. Remember that >betas of 2000 were called "NT 5.0"). [[ Beta-Schmeta ]] From my Winders 2K command prompt: C:\!Tivo2>ver Microsoft Windows 2000 [Version 5.00.2195] Windoze XP is NT Version 5.1. The only differences is it plays more games, looks uglier (unless you turn it all off, like I do), and takes more memory... ;-) >Where you'd have problems is with MS-DOS utilities that access the drives >directly and expect to program an 8237 DMA controller. Many such >utilities have DMA 2/IRQ 6 hardwired. Right, but on those mobos where you can set that specifically, it *might* just work. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 9 13:05:01 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:05:01 -0600 Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: <20051009123826.677a1667.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051006231654.31f83c66.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051009163804.5CA7439130@linux.local> <20051009123826.677a1667.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43495BCD.3050509@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Stevens wrote: >Hopefully there will be an archive of system software up and available >for you to download by the time you get that board populated. > >I'm working towards that, anyhow. > > I was just looking at some smaller PCB's pricing, and I hope you got a good deal on the PCB since on the same page they listed the prices for proto-type multi-layer PCB's. They an't cheap -- 8 layer board QTY 2 $500 each -- they don't do 7 layer boards. Ben alias woodelf From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Oct 9 13:10:59 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 19:10:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: Scott Stevens "Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware" (Oct 9, 9:52) References: <200510080825.j988PgPn047793@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> <20051009095222.621c9bcc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <10510091910.ZM21738@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 9 2005, 9:52, Scott Stevens wrote: > One thing I am wondering is if an 8-bit floppy controller card (the ones > from the PC-XT generation, which didn't have floppy IO on the > motherboard) could be modified (if needed) and contrived to work in a > more modern system that still has the ISA bus. If the particular I/O > locations are being used, simple cuts and adds could re-direct the I/O > ports. This would give the enterprising programmer a 765 controller > with relevant hardware to plug additional drives into. The original > PC-PC/XT controller is fully documented in the TechRef, and even has all > the cabling in place to support four floppies. It will work, at least on machines I've tried. I've had exactly the same problem as the restr of you -- only one pin for one drive select on the board, so only one floppy where I need (at least) two. And the BIOS behaved once it saw there were two floppies there. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Oct 9 13:30:45 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:30:45 -0500 Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: <43495BCD.3050509@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20051006231654.31f83c66.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051009163804.5CA7439130@linux.local> <20051009123826.677a1667.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43495BCD.3050509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051009133045.5410af27.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:05:01 -0600 woodelf wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > > >Hopefully there will be an archive of system software up and > >available for you to download by the time you get that board > >populated. > > > >I'm working towards that, anyhow. > > > > > I was just looking at some smaller PCB's pricing, and I hope you got > a good deal > on the PCB since on the same page they listed the prices for > proto-type multi-layer PCB's. > They an't cheap -- 8 layer board QTY 2 $500 each -- they don't do 7 > layer boards. > Price is probably down to $50 when you buy 1000, but this isn't a board that we could find 1000 customers for at $50 apiece. It could be a realistic candidate for a two layer board that does the worst/most repetetive of the busses and power with the holes sized for wire-wrap sockets. But that's a huge engineering project just to recreate something, and there'd still be huge amounts of wire wrapping to perform. I once in my naive youth bought a 'bare kit' unpopulated PC-XT clone motherboard (this was from a Canadian company, btw.) It was only a two layer design, and I never did get it populated. It probably wouldn't have been stable, with the deficient power and grounding inherent in a high chip count two layer layout. (okay, somebodys turn to say it can all be done in an ASIC) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 13:32:28 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:32:28 -0700 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <10510091910.ZM21738@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200510080825.j988PgPn047793@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> <20051009095222.621c9bcc.chenmel@earthlink.net> <10510091910.ZM21738@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200510091132280440.52E517B6@10.0.0.252> On 10/9/2005 at 7:10 PM Pete Turnbull wrote: >It will work, at least on machines I've tried. I've had exactly the >same problem as the restr of you -- only one pin for one drive select >on the board, so only one floppy where I need (at least) two. And the >BIOS behaved once it saw there were two floppies there. If you've got an ISA slot (current Optiplexes do not), better to get an aftermarket ISA floppy card that supports high density, rather than the original PC-XT version, which will not support the high density 1.44/1.2 media. There were many such cards, most with their own BIOS support (you can probably disable that if the card is well-behaved). Cheers, Chuck From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 9 13:42:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <200510080930050001.4D4EB087@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The big weakness in the Apple II disk was the lack of really good error > checking. A simple one-byte arithmetic checksum was used in lieu of a > CRC and I've personally experienced corrupted data flying by without > being diagnosed. This is over-stated quite grandly. The Apple ][ disk system was extremely reliable. And it still is. My 20 year old disks still read and write just fine. > If you're looking for a good no-nonsense book on the innards of the IIe, > try to find Jim Sather's book "Understanding the Apple IIe" (Quality > Software). Long OOP, it's one of the better references. It's a very hard book to find, but worth it if you do. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 07:51:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:51:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <20051009110439.67792dc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Oct 9, 5 11:04:39 am Message-ID: > But does that work without digging in further? Does a PC/XT-era floppy > card replicate a PC-AT diskette controller? I am asking, since I've > never tackled such a project. Sort-of. It uses the same I/O addresses and DMA channel for the 765 and the drive select register (the drive select and motor-on bits for drives 2 and 3 are documented as 'reserved' in the PC/AT docs :-)). What it doesn't have is the data rate register, the PC/XT controller is fixed at 250kbps only. And the data separator is strictly MFM only I think. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 07:25:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:25:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: <20051008135021.35275.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Oct 8, 5 06:50:21 am Message-ID: > > a scholar and a gentleman. I even considered building > my own, though not sure if MM made the artwork > available. Was put off by the fact that the board has > 7 layers according to the article. If anyone is > knowledgeable enough of pcb production - is it > possible to make a 7 layer board w/o special I've never heard of anybody making more than double-sided PCBs at home (I would love to be proved wrong!). But just about any PCB manufacturing company could do it. > equipment/materials? Why did it even need 7 layers? The advantages of more layes are : You can route more tracks in the same area. A trivial example of this is that you can normally only route one track between 2 adjacent IC pins of a DIL pacakge on a particular layer. More layers -> more traces can be fitted in. More importantly you can have particular layes for power and ground planes. That is, one layer will be almost all copper, with 'holes' round pins you don't want to be connected to ground, and connected to those pins you do wany grounded. Doing this will have a much lower impedance (it's the inducatance that really matters, not the resistance, BTW) than normal traces. You can also shield traced inside the board between ground planes. And you can design traces as striplines over the ground plane (and thus know their characteristic impedance) for high frequency work. I doubt any 8088-based design needs you to go that far, but the dedicated power and ground planes would probably be almost essential. > How many layers were did the IBM PC mobo have? I know At a guess, it was a 6 layer board. Certainly 4 layers (signal traces on the outside, intenral power and ground planes), I think there are hidden signal traces too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 07:34:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:34:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: TEC FD-50x drives - known issues? In-Reply-To: <20051009015155.TEUK5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Oct 8, 5 09:51:56 pm Message-ID: > > >A disk drive performs several different functions. In particular, it > >rotates the disk, it detects the index hole and write protect notch, it > >moves the heads between cylinders and detects the track0 position, and it > >actually does the reading and writing. > > This much I actually know :-) One of the problems with this list is that it's impossible to know the knowledge/skill level of the person asking the question. Your original question did seem to suggest you thoguth of the floppy drive as a single unit, whereas as we both know, it's a collection of several systems. It certainly helps if we both know which of those systems is the problem. > > > >Do you know which, if any, of these systems are working? Can you get the > >disk to spin? Do you get an index pulse? Can you get the head to move? > >And so on. > > All functions appear to work (Motor, Index, Step) - problem in all cases > is in the read/write circuitry. Drive goes through all the motions, it > just can't read/write. Ah, right (or is that Ah... Write :-)). Can you identify the read amplifier chain (often using NE592 ICs), or is it hidden in an ASIC. In the latter case, look for a pair of LC filter networks connected to the ASIC. The read chain almost always consists of differential amplifiers right up to the final comparator stage, so you expect filters to come in pairs, etc. If you can find a pair of test point pins associated with those, then they're almost certainly the outputs you'd use for head alignemt. Hook a 'scope with differential inputs to those, try reading a normal disk (never put an alignment disk into a dodgy drive!). Do the signals look at all sane? > It may come to this - At least I do have a couple of working drives > that I can compare signals with - but I asked in case a) someone has > the technical documentation or b) someone might say "oh yeah, thats > a common problem caused by xxx...", either of which could save me a > lot of time. I don't know how complicated these drives are, but I can't believe it would tkae more than a day to figure out the read amplifier section, even if it is hidden in the ASIC. Sometimes it's quicker to just sit down and have a go :-) > > I think I agree with Allison however that these drives are crap, and > I'm not sure I want to spend a lot of time on them if suitable > substitutes can be found - in this case, the physical constraints make > this a but more challenging. Well, I like to keep my machines as close to original as possible. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 07:42:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:42:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dying PCjr drive; options? In-Reply-To: <43487B4A.1000404@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Oct 8, 5 09:07:06 pm Message-ID: > > As the subject implies, I've got a PCjr with a floppy drive that is having > trouble reading disks and fails the internal CTRL-ALT-INS diagnostics. > Symptoms include a very loud/bad noise at first seek (rest of seeks > sound ok), This sounds (!) like it's not detecting track 0 correctly, it's just banging the head into the end stop. My first thought is to clean the track 0 sensor (has it got dust in the gap), then sit down with the drive and test gear and debug the circuitry. > and a "B" ("have drive serviced") result of the diags. The diskette I > used for > diags was tested in a 5150 and found to be good. This drive was > working a week > ago but has declined steadily until it can't successfully boot the > machine. (I > bought some time by formatting disks 8 sectors per track instead of 9, > but that > no longers works :-) I've already cleaned it using a cleaning diskette and I can't see why that would help, unless the spindle is turning too fast or something. That would be a very odd problem... > alcohol. > > What are my options? Is the floppy drive in a PCjr as > goofy/proprietary as the No, it's a standard half-height 360K floppy drive. IIRC the original was a Qumetrack or something, which has a bad reputation. But there is a schematics in the Options and Adapters TechRef, so it's not going to be that hard to fix. > rest of the machine? If so, should I even attempt to repair it? By > the bad I _would_ have a go. IIRC, it's a fairly easy drive to work on (no ASICs, mostly common TTL chips), schematics exist, etc. Let me know if you want to do this (and what test gear you have available), and I'll dig out the schematic and talk you through it. > clunk/buzz noise, I am assuming the head is slamming into the side of > the drive > or something equally heinous. > > Another related question: When I was first getting started with personal > computers 25 years ago, I seem to recall that track alignment was a common > problem and could be fixed by using a calibration diskette and special > software > that you could monitor as you turned the alignment screw. Without one > of those > factory calibration diskettes, is it even possible to align/calibrate > a floppy > drive for track alignment? Yes, doing the 'radial alignment' is not that hard. I've never had any success with the 'digital alignment disks', I prefer a 'catseye disk' and an oscilloscope conencted to the differential outputs of the read amplifier. If you have a disk written on a known-good drive (that is, one with correct alignment), you can in theory look at the read signal in the same way when reading that disk, finding the points where the read signal drops to a particular value on each side of the track, and then setting the head midway between them (this is actually a lot easier than trying to find the peak level). But it's a lot harder than using the right alignment disk. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 9 13:46:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <20051008094914.L79842@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > > The format from that controller was bizarre enough I don't know if there > > was any way > > to read them on the IBM PC's disks. > It is, of course, "impossible". > > But there are some amazingly ridiculous kludges, involving things such as > switching drive select in mid read! (sorry, no single drive Dells :-) http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 9 13:58:23 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:58:23 -0600 Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: <20051009133045.5410af27.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051006231654.31f83c66.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051009163804.5CA7439130@linux.local> <20051009123826.677a1667.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43495BCD.3050509@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051009133045.5410af27.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4349684F.3050508@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Stevens wrote: >Price is probably down to $50 when you buy 1000, but this isn't a board >that we could find 1000 customers for at $50 apiece. > >It could be a realistic candidate for a two layer board that does the >worst/most repetetive of the busses and power with the holes sized for >wire-wrap sockets. But that's a huge engineering project just to >recreate something, and there'd still be huge amounts of wire wrapping >to perform. > > But what is on the MPX-16 that needs such hi-density? 286? All 640k of ram? >I once in my naive youth bought a 'bare kit' unpopulated PC-XT clone >motherboard (this was from a Canadian company, btw.) It was only a two >layer design, and I never did get it populated. It probably wouldn't >have been stable, with the deficient power and grounding inherent in a >high chip count two layer layout. > >(okay, somebodys turn to say it can all be done in an ASIC) > > > sure why not ... Umm a 4.77 GHZ XT -- runs and DUCKS .... Wait on second thought you might get one at that speed since you don't need more than 16 bits. Now a PDP-8 would be hard to do at high speed since they have Read - Write memory cycle. >. > > Still doing PCB's I think is a better way than wire wrap for more than a few IC's. From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 9 14:00:22 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay In-Reply-To: <00cd01c5cc3d$0625a950$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Jay West wrote: > This does bring up a question I've been wondering as to the mindset of a > scrapper/surplus dealer (in general, not a specific one), perhaps someone > here can posit an explanation. I've seen a fair number of situations where a > dealer/scrapper offers an item (not necessarily on ebay) for a price far > above the going price. You offer them an amount above going prices, and far > above scrap value... but even that is significantly less than their initial > price. They refuse, and the item goes to the melting pot. I know for a fact > that they are getting much less money in the melting pot than I was > offering. I've seen this more than just once or twice. If I was in their > position, I'd take double the melting pot money. I don't get it. It's a psychological thing. They need to maintain control over what they ask and get for the stuff they sell or else their customers start to cause them more time and trouble than they care to deal with. There's no emotion in it for them, just dollar signs. If you pay what they want then all is well. If not, they send the stuff off to the smelter and the next load of crap comes in, just like last week, and just like next week. Not saying it's good or bad either way, just that you need to understand the scrapman and he'll become your best friend. Some are cool, some are dicks. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 9 14:02:58 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051009115054.G18195@shell.lmi.net> > > Does anybody else on the list have an MPX-16 system? I recently > > acquired one from a list member and am wondering how many of these > > systems still exist. I have a large (relatively) collection of > > diskettes with mine. On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I think I have two, one of which I got from Fred. I had had two, well really one and a half. I couldn't remember whether Sellam got 'em, or Carl Nolton. I had a couple of looseleaf binders, one loose MB, and one assembled in a case (although, like MOST of my machines, there was prob'ly no lid (aka "shipping cover") on the case, and the power supply was a long clumsy thing hanging out of a drive bay; CAREFUL, there're unshielded live wires on that PS!). It also had their accessory keyboard interface board (ISA with 5 pin DIN), which, along with a video board permitted some PC compatability. IIRC, the MPX-16 had 9 ISA slots. They were NOT the same spacing as XT. Instead, 5 of them lined up with the PC spacing. Finding an aftermarket PC case in the days of XTs wasn't easy. And the power supply connectors didn't match IBM. I had a LOT of junk in that office! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 9 14:07:07 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051008160143.04bdfbe0@mail> Message-ID: As with all Sanyo MBC-555 computers that come around, they should all be sent COD to Joe Rigdon. ;) On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, John Foust wrote: > >Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 23:57:02 -0400 From: Stuart Pomerantz > > To: jfoust at threedee.com Subject: questions > >about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors > > > >Dear Mr. Foust, > > > >I came across your website and your interest in old computers. I have a > >Sanyo MBC-555 computer in perfect condition with both color and amber > >monitors, all the old documentation/packing and several years worth of > >SoftSector, a Sanyo MBC 55x enthusiast magazine. Is there anyone in the > >world interested in this hardware/material or is it time to add to the > >world's landfills? Hope you can be of help (and can have first dibs, if > >interested). > > > >Sincerely, > > > >Stuart Pomerantz > -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 9 14:46:24 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <43486F37.2010604@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > The idea is that the carrier will be much more careful if a package > is insured for $big_num. Hmmmm.... > Of course, *every* item is handled with the same care (wink wink, nod > nod), but strangely enough I've never had a shipment damaged that was > insured for over $250. I assume this is encoded somehow on the shipping label so that the drivers and handlers can determine how many feet they are allowed to drop a package from? The ASR32 I shipped to NY came out OK. For shipping, the teletype was separated from the base and each part was packed in its own box. The TTY was insured for $1000 and the base for (I think) $350. The TTY was fine. The base was OK too, but had obviously been mishandled. I mounted a large and fairly heavy power supply in the base to power the loop. I was only able to put two bolts into the P/S so I shored it up by wedging some styrofoam into the base against the P/S. Somewhat shoddy, I admit, but if it'd been handled with even a modicum of care then it should not have come loose as it did (one screw mount was ripped from the P/S). Perhaps the TTY fared better because I put a "FRAGILE" sign on that package. I did install the transit screw into the typing unit. Which brings up another bitch. Aside from the shoddy design of the teletype overall, couldn't they have designed it to not require a bolt be installed for shipping or moving the unit? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gtoal at gtoal.com Sun Oct 9 14:50:23 2005 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 14:50:23 -0500 Subject: Unix on BBC micro with 16032 coprocessor In-Reply-To: <200510091537.j99FbNWH075192@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510091537.j99FbNWH075192@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4349747F.mail8LU11DX7L@gtoal.com> > On Sat, October 8, 2005 6:32 pm, Pete Hollobon said: >> Does anyone know if Xenix / Unix were ever available on the NS 16032 >> second >> processor for the BBC micro? I remember reading that it was intended to be >> made available in the user's guide years ago. > It was supposed to be an option for the Cambridge Workstation since that > also had a 16032/32016 2nd processor but I don't know if it ever made it > into the wild. Graham Toal's the man who'll know I suspect, also Paul > Williams (if he's around) and Jules R. To the best of my recollection this was only ever talked about but never implemented by anyone at Acorn. If it was done externally I have no knowlege of it. I was one of the 3 or 4 people who argued in favour of us selling the systems with Unix but Acorn was very much a 'not invented here' company. I think way back then there were also significant costs associatated with licensing Unix, plus there were few ports to archiectures other than Vax and 68000. While we're on the subject of the NS processor... A couple of years ago I got in touch with Peter Robertson, the author of Acorn's compilers for that system (Pascal, C and Imp77) in the hope of getting the source of the compiler from him. Unfortunately he had not kept a copy of that code generator. I vaguely remember that there were sources escrowed somewhere at the time. Obviously the escrow will be long gone, but on the vague offchance that someone from Acorn retained a copy... does anyone have the source code for that compiler? (Really just the back-end Icode to binary Pass3, but _anything_ anyone has is wanted for the Edinburgh Computer History Project!) By the way I have copies of quite a few binaries for this platform. Has anyone ever written an emulator for this architecture? I haven't found one. It ought to be an easy one to write, it was a very regular instruction set. My guess for why there isn't one is that it was never a very popular chip, but that hasn't stopped emulators being written for lots of other obscure architectures! I can imagine that it wouldn't take much more than just a basic instruction set emulator to make Panos live again, as the I/O could be done by emulating an I/O processor Beeb and the tube chip. There must be several Beeb emulators around that can handle second processors to which we could graft a NS emulator? I think somewhere I have a paper listing of Mark Taunton's linker for Panos. It was a very well written piece of code. I think it was Acorn's only piece of Panos code (except for the compilers themselves) that was written in Imp77. Everything else was in Modula II. I also recently discovered Keith Rautenbach's & my editor for Panos, the one which was a sort of EMACS-alike written in ModII with a built-in mock LISP. I have all the sources *except* the LISP init files needed to start it up :-( Also, the editor shot some code over to the IO processor when it was invoked, which did some extended keystroke handling - that part I do have... A small aside: when I built my 6809 second processor for the Beeb, while I was waiting for the chips to arrive I wrote a 6809 emulator that ran on the 16032, written in Imp77. It was faster than the real chip! Also it was my first emulator. I wrote it on a 32016 2nd proc that was on a Beeb with one of the early experimental Winchester disks. Of course the disk died, - about 2 days after I finished the emulator - and the backup floppy was corrupt and the only source I had was on paper. I was too depressed to key it all in again (and the paper listing was about a week from the final version) and what's worse I lost the paper listing along with *all* my historical computing papers when I emigrated from the UK to the US 10 years ago :-/ Anyway, moral of this story was that it was a very early wake-up call for me on the value of backups :-) Ever since then I have always had two hard drives containing everything I've ever written, with one of them offline so they don't both get taken out by the same lightning strike! I am so glad that disk drives are getting bigger faster than I can fill them - I've always been able to keep everything I've ever done and just move it over to the latest biggest drive when it becomes cheap enough to afford. I saw 500Gb hitachi drives at $260 today so I'm thinking it's time to migrate again :-) Graham PS Joe Rigdon, the US Beeb you loaned me will be sent out in tomorrow's mail. Thanks very much for letting me use it! From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 9 14:50:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <0IO200KTZK7ZIIX1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > >I haven't yet seen a floppy disk (and I have some probably as old as 30 > >years by now) that have shed oxide. > > I have. It's not common and some vendors were more prone to it and > humidity is a big factor. The earlier quality stuff as I said before > didn't do it. Bit I do have some crap Nashua stuff from around 84ish > that was known for it. I should add the caveat that all my disks have always been stored in California, so that helps :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 9 14:53:51 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: <1128870725.26017.31.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <200510091453.j99ErqTX027527@mwave.heeltoe.com> <1128870725.26017.31.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <20051009125132.G18588@shell.lmi.net> > Sure enough, the disk had a nice transparent ring on it. Microsoft copy protected their version of "Adventure", so that it 'sposedly had to be run from the original diskette. Used copies will often have a clear ring at certain key points: 4" slit, XYZZY, PLUGH, drop the bird, batteries, the two mazes. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 9 15:02:07 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <20051009110439.67792dc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <0IO300L1HN0QVKV2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <20051009110439.67792dc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051009125749.F18588@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > But does that work without digging in further? Does a PC/XT-era floppy > card replicate a PC-AT diskette controller? I am asking, since I've > never tackled such a project. XT FDC works fine in AT. BUT,... MOST XT FDCs only support 250K data transfer rate, and therefore, only "360K" and "720K". ... unless you change the drive motor speed to 150/180 RPM :-) Look for XT FDCs that support 500K data transfer rate. "Compaticard" is the most popular, but there are LOTS of others. Those'll do everything that the AT FDC would. While you're at it, look for 125K data transfer rate for 5.25" FM, and 1000K data transfer rate for 2.8M. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 9 15:03:44 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510091614.j99GEnj8009200@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510091614.j99GEnj8009200@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20051009130309.H18588@shell.lmi.net> > > So, if it's important, paper is THE medium. Maybe it doesn't > > have great recording density, but it's pretty permanent as things go. On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, Gil Carrick wrote: > Not much good for executable files. Don't forget the bulk erasure in Alexandria From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 9 15:03:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Electronics recycling, was HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay In-Reply-To: <200510081957120991.4F8CD48B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >There probably are a few places still doing things the old way. Big > >deal. > > The problem to me is that we just don't know how big a deal it is. IP > piracy (music, movies, software, designer fashions) is also something > that the Chinese government has come out against (and they periodically > crack down on some group or another for show). Yet how big would you say > that the pirate software or music business is in China? I don't know--I > doubt that anyone has a really accurate figure--but it's not negligible. > Illegal, yes. > > So when the official party organ of the PRC comes out this year and says > that there's still a problem, how big is it? > > I don't know, but I suspect that it's not negligible. Whatever the case, we have enough problems to solve domestically that we shouldn't concern ourselves with what's going on 8,000 miles away. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 9 15:07:11 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510090906410082.525F9AD2@10.0.0.252> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510090906410082.525F9AD2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051009130431.E18588@shell.lmi.net> > (Mindless rambliing) Lawrence Livermore used to have some sort of > photographic data storage unit that was pretty unique. I can't even > remember the name of the thing, does any recall it? Don't know. But at GSFC (Goddard Space flight Center), we used a Stromberg-Datagraphics 4060 to do computer text output direct to microfilm. The only important thing that I did there was conversion routine to send Calcomp plotter (570? 780?) data direct to the SD 4020/4060s From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 9 15:08:47 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510090931370301.5276733B@10.0.0.252> References: <200510091614.j99GEnj8009200@keith.ezwind.net> <200510090931370301.5276733B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051009130817.T18588@shell.lmi.net> > >Not much good for executable files. On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Whatever happened to "paperbytes"? :) Cauzin "Softstrip"? From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 9 15:12:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, James Fogg wrote: > Does anyone know if there are optical formats that can reliably deliver > 10 year shelf-life? How does one achieve it (different types of cd-r > chemistry, using cd-rom, etc)? Just use hard drives. Cheap, high capacity, and reliable. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Oct 9 15:24:37 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 15:24:37 -0500 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <20051009130431.E18588@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510092034.j99KYETK013415@keith.ezwind.net> ... > > (Mindless rambliing) Lawrence Livermore used to have some sort of > > photographic data storage unit that was pretty unique. I can't even > > remember the name of the thing, does any recall it? Back in the late '60s I remember seeing a unit from IBM that used film storage. The film was a small rectangle, maybe 1" x 2-1/2". These were stored in magazines of some sort, IIRC. They could be individually selected randomly. I have one of the film rectangles somewhere. When I run across it again I will post a link to an image. In the mean time, does this ring a bell with anyone? I can't remember a model number or anything, so perhaps it was a proof of concept or something. I was working at Baylor Medical in Houston & they had a pretty good in with IBM. We had all manner of strange devices installed on a 360/50 from time to time. We even had one of those noodle snatchers in for a while. I also remember when we got our first megabyte memory - called a Large Core Storage. It was from Ampex and was about the size of a refrigerator - maybe a little deeper. There was a visible stack of core planes about 4' tall inside it. Gil From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 9 15:26:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <20051009123634.4e2dac55.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Or the best version of all, i.e. one you can 'snap off and throw away' > like Windows 1/2/3 on DOS. > > For my new data-reading system I've cobbled up, I have it running > Windows 98, but tweaked it to not boot to Windows at all, just wait at > the command prompt. Then after I've created images and what-not, I let > it go the rest of the way in so I can copy the image files created over > the network. If you're using Windows in this context just so you can have networking support then you're making life very difficult for yourself. Use the Microsoft Network Client to give your DOS box TCP/IP connectivity, including DHCP, the ability to mount volumes on an XP box, etc. I've got it available for download here: http://www.siconic.com/download/network/MSNC.ZIP If you use a 3Com NIC then be sure to NOT load the drivers high (it's an option you're asked about when you install). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Oct 9 15:46:16 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 15:46:16 Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <20051008225216.37059.qmail@web51611.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051008180158.41afd74e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051009154616.44570890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:52 PM 10/8/05 -0700, you wrote: > > >--- "Joe R." wrote: > >> It's also not available anymore. HP quit selling >> them several years ago. >> I've been watching Ebay for one for over a year and >> there have been NONE >> listed. I guess their owner's don't want to part >> with them. >> >> Joe >> >> >I assume you mean they are not available cheap and >used, If I meant cheap and used I would have said cheap and used. I'm very literally with what I say. but new they are frequently available on ebay, >here is one that just sold a few days ago. > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/Logic-Probe-LogicDart-HP-E2310A-Brand-NEW_W0QQitemZ7550 409550QQcategoryZ97188QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewIte *&)*&)*&(*^&))! I have a standing search for them on E-bay . Obviously it'snot working. &*&^! One just sold for $150. It's funny, the search isn't working for current auctions but when I tell it to search for completed auctions with the same search string it finds three of them. m > >I think they sold for $1000 when HP sold them, no one >bought them, in 9 months they stop production It looks like a great instrument but $1000? I don't think so! Joe > > > > > >__________________________________ >Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 >http://mail.yahoo.com > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Oct 9 16:30:05 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:30:05 Subject: Fwd: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20051008160143.04bdfbe0@mail> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051009163005.442f3e34@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:07 PM 10/9/05 -0700, Sellam wrote: > >As with all Sanyo MBC-555 computers that come around, they should all be >sent COD to Joe Rigdon. Let's send them all to New Orleans. They need the fill :-) And what the hell, it's already polluted. Joe > >;) > >On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, John Foust wrote: > >> >Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 23:57:02 -0400 From: Stuart Pomerantz >> > To: jfoust at threedee.com Subject: questions >> >about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors >> > >> >Dear Mr. Foust, >> > >> >I came across your website and your interest in old computers. I have a >> >Sanyo MBC-555 computer in perfect condition with both color and amber >> >monitors, all the old documentation/packing and several years worth of >> >SoftSector, a Sanyo MBC 55x enthusiast magazine. Is there anyone in the >> >world interested in this hardware/material or is it time to add to the >> >world's landfills? Hope you can be of help (and can have first dibs, if >> >interested). >> > >> >Sincerely, >> > >> >Stuart Pomerantz >> > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Oct 9 15:37:28 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 15:37:28 Subject: MIL MOD8 parts/software/information In-Reply-To: <002001c5cc56$3d1b4be0$0500a8c0@jkearney.com> References: <20051008033900.VUW5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <3.0.6.16.20051008163244.109f1126@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051009153728.44571a44@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Yeah, that's him. I couldn't remember his last name. I've met him a couple of times and he seems to be a decent guy. Joe At 06:17 PM 10/8/05 -0400, you wrote: >> That sounds like Steve ? here in Orlando. He's a big time IC collector. >> I don't remember his E-bay id but I have his phone number and his E-mail >> address. Let me know if you want me to ask here about the stuff. > >Steve Emery? > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Oct 9 16:08:55 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:08:55 Subject: Fwd: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors In-Reply-To: <20051008202307.41bda725.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20051008181059.109f407e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20051008160143.04bdfbe0@mail> <3.0.6.16.20051008181059.109f407e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051009160855.445727e8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:23 PM 10/8/05 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 18:10:59 >"Joe R." wrote: > >> Yuck! I had a 555 and it's the worst "clone" ever made IMO! Feed >> it to >> the landfill! >> >> Joe >> >> > >Machines like that have historical value. I remember the Sanyo PC >Clones, too. They wouldn't boot from anything except the specific Sanyo >version of MS-DOS. They were 'closed' without expandability. Still, >they were early enough systems to have some historical value, as a >'kinda clone' system. The Columbia Data Systems was a 'kinda' too, and >I remember frowning on them back in the day at swapmeets and junkshops, >and I would LOVE to have one now (one of the very first IBM 'clones' >from before Compaq's success). > >There's a lot of historical worth in machines from that era that were >'stinkers.' In particular, people who have bad memories of them and >want them destroyed will ensure that they are more rare than usual >eventually. > >I have similar bad memories of the AT&T 6300. THREE of my friends bought 6300s. They were GREAT compared to the Sanyos. They actually had ISA expansion slots instead of the ONE propriatary connector that the Sanyo had. They would run true IBM PC DOS and all the IBM PC software. I don't remember exactly what speed they ran at (6MHz?) but I'm pretty sure that it was faster than the PC (plus it used the 8086 processor). The Sanyo ran at 3.58MHz (8088) so that they could use CHEAP color burst crsytals for the oscillator. The Sanyos also used part of the main memory for the video memory instead of having video memory at a fixed address ala the IBM PC so a LOT of the MS DOS software would not run on it. The Sanyo had about a 30 Watt power supply, you literally could not run an 8087 coprosessor and a 2nd floppy drive at the same time! The Sanyo could not be expanded over 256k without serious hardware hacks, etc etc etc. The **&*&) non-standard keyboard and keycodes, non-standard IO connectors. I think everything was non-standard on it! The DOS for the Sanyo was highly tailored for it and it was FULL of bugs and the manuals were plain S**T! Like I said, I HAD a 555. It was THE worst compatible computer ever made! No make that plain WORST computer ever made. I don't believe any other computer had as many problems and as little support as the Sanyos did! I had friends that had Columbias, AT&Ts, and just about any other that you could name and none of them had a fraction of troubles that I constantly had. I was a poor college student and could afford anything else so I stuck with (or got stuck with!) a Sanyo for three years and I used it A LOT. I DESPISE the things! Joe I remember all the time >wasted at work trying to get a high density floppy disk to work (not my >time, but the engineers who futzed with it grew to hate the machine.) >And yet, there are people here who would be happy to have an AT&T 6300 >now. There are probably still people who consider them 'superior' to >the IBM-PC because they used an 8086 and a 16-bit wide data path. > >Machines like the Sanyo belong in somebody's collection. (no room here, >sadly) > >> At 04:01 PM 10/8/05 -0500, you wrote: >> > >> >>Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 23:57:02 -0400 >> >>From: Stuart Pomerantz >> >>To: jfoust at threedee.com >> >>Subject: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors >> >> >> >>Dear Mr. Foust, >> >> >> >>I came across your website and your interest in old computers. I >> >have a >> Sanyo MBC-555 computer in perfect condition with both color and amber >> monitors, all the old documentation/packing and several years worth of >> SoftSector, a Sanyo MBC 55x enthusiast magazine. Is there anyone in >> the world interested in this hardware/material or is it time to add to >> the world's landfills? Hope you can be of help (and can have first >> dibs, if interested). >> >> >> >>Sincerely, >> >> >> >>Stuart Pomerantz >> > >> > >> > From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 9 15:39:22 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 15:39:22 -0500 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510091539.22267.pat@computer-refuge.org> Vintage Computer Festival declared on Sunday 09 October 2005 03:12 pm: > On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, James Fogg wrote: > > Does anyone know if there are optical formats that can reliably > > deliver 10 year shelf-life? How does one achieve it (different types > > of cd-r chemistry, using cd-rom, etc)? > > Just use hard drives. Cheap, high capacity, and reliable. And make sure you keep them spinning, so that you can tell when they fail, along with a redundant copy on another machine which you mirror to periodically (even automatically once every N days is fine). Migrate to newer media when the old stuff is pretty much obsolete. If you manage to do that, your data will long outlast any CDRs that you store in a filing cabinet next to the computer(s). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From allain at panix.com Sun Oct 9 15:44:52 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:44:52 -0400 Subject: Archival storage References: <200510092034.j99KYETK013415@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <005201c5cd12$4d406b60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Back in the late '60s I remember seeing a unit from IBM that used film > storage. The film was a small rectangle, maybe 1" x 2-1/2". These were > stored in magazines of some sort, IIRC. ... does this ring a bell with > anyone? One of those cubes was shown to me by an IBM research staffer in 1991, he knew I was interested in computer history and arranged for me to get a tour of the hardware archive center. The cube matched your description quite closely, I remember it now (somewhat weakly) as being like safety razor dispenser. John A. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 16:08:40 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 14:08:40 -0700 Subject: Electronics recycling, was HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510091408400740.537419E4@10.0.0.252> On 10/9/2005 at 1:03 PM Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Whatever the case, we have enough problems to solve domestically that we >shouldn't concern ourselves with what's going on 8,000 miles away. ...and neither should we export our problems to far-flung lands. :) Cheers, Chuck From James at jdfogg.com Sun Oct 9 16:10:04 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 17:10:04 -0400 Subject: Archival storage Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E584A@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Back in the late '60s I remember seeing a unit from IBM that > used film storage. The film was a small rectangle, maybe 1" x > 2-1/2". These were stored in magazines of some sort, IIRC. > They could be individually selected randomly. > > I have one of the film rectangles somewhere. When I run > across it again I will post a link to an image. In the mean > time, does this ring a bell with anyone? Aperture cards. An IBM punch card with a square of film in it. The punch coding was a filing system serial number. There were variations that looked like 35mm slides with a bigger than normal cardboard mount too. I used to work for the Terminal Data Corp, and along with Kodak we made 90% of the microfiche/microfilm cameras in the American market. Many other manufacturers, esp. COM systems (Computer Output to Microfilm) used our cameras. From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 9 16:15:45 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 14:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Electronics recycling, was HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay In-Reply-To: <200510091408400740.537419E4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/9/2005 at 1:03 PM Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >Whatever the case, we have enough problems to solve domestically that we > >shouldn't concern ourselves with what's going on 8,000 miles away. > > ...and neither should we export our problems to far-flung lands. :) If they didn't want it, they wouldn't be taking it in at the rate of thousands of tons per day ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 16:23:49 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 14:23:49 -0700 Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510091423490486.5381F7A5@10.0.0.252> On 10/9/2005 at 11:42 AM Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >This is over-stated quite grandly. The Apple ][ disk system was >extremely reliable. And it still is. My 20 year old disks still read and >write just fine. Overstated or not, an 8 bit simple arithmetic checksum to guard 256 (actually 410) data bytes is pretty weak. To be completely fair, my experience was wth some fairly mangled Apple ][ diskettes. Fortunately, they contained mainly ASCII text, so picking up errors "by eye" was simple. The number of errors per diskette was very large, but when you're doing data recovery, you've got what you've got. You read as much of the diskette as possible and save the good sectors in one pile and try to whittle away the size of the bad sector pile using various tricks in your toolkit. On more than one occasion, not a hint of an error flag was raised when a bad sector was read. I noted that the corrupted data had the same checksum as what the correct data woiuld have had. Let's face it, most diskettes, even those 20 years old would fare just fine with a read-and-compare after write and NO checksum of any kind. It's that small minority with errors that makes one nervous. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 9 16:24:34 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 14:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E584A@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E584A@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <20051009142054.B18588@shell.lmi.net> > > Back in the late '60s I remember seeing a unit from IBM that > > used film storage. The film was a small rectangle, maybe 1" x > > 2-1/2". These were stored in magazines of some sort, IIRC. > > They could be individually selected randomly. > > I have one of the film rectangles somewhere. When I run > > across it again I will post a link to an image. In the mean > > time, does this ring a bell with anyone? On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, James Fogg wrote: > Aperture cards. An IBM punch card with a square of film in it. The punch > coding was a filing system serial number. There were variations that > looked like 35mm slides with a bigger than normal cardboard mount too. Think of Emmanuel Goldberg's "Rapid Selector", and Vannevar Bush's Memex copy of it. (movie film microfilm, with binary optical filing data alongside) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 17:00:54 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 15:00:54 -0700 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510092034.j99KYETK013415@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510092034.j99KYETK013415@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200510091500540808.53A3EC39@10.0.0.252> Found it! -- after I posted I heard my memory saying "Photostore?".... The IBM 1360 Photostore. Google's got plenty on it. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 11:27:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 17:27:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051009154616.44570890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Oct 9, 5 03:46:16 pm Message-ID: > >I think they sold for $1000 when HP sold them, no one > >bought them, in 9 months they stop production > > It looks like a great instrument but $1000? I don't think so! I seem to remember paying \pounds 650.00 or thereabouts for mine (new, when it was in production). Persoanlly, I think it was well worth it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 9 11:32:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 17:32:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Oct 9, 5 12:46:24 pm Message-ID: > Perhaps the TTY fared better because I put a "FRAGILE" sign on that > package. I did install the transit screw into the typing unit. Odd.. The shipping companies over here speak a strange language where 'Fragile' means 'This package is to be used for playing (american) football' :-) > Which brings up another bitch. Aside from the shoddy design of the > teletype overall, couldn't they have designed it to not require a bolt be > installed for shipping or moving the unit? No. You want the typing unit to float on those rubber mounts in normal operation to cut down noise and vibration. Actually, it's quite common for large-ish machinery to need shipping bolts, clamps, etc to be fitted. I can think of a lot of non-computer-related examples. -tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 9 17:45:16 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 18:45:16 -0400 Subject: Archival storage Message-ID: <0IO40057G76L5WW3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Archival storage > From: Patrick Finnegan > Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 15:39:22 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Vintage Computer Festival declared on Sunday 09 October 2005 03:12 pm: >> On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, James Fogg wrote: >> > Does anyone know if there are optical formats that can reliably >> > deliver 10 year shelf-life? How does one achieve it (different types >> > of cd-r chemistry, using cd-rom, etc)? >> >> Just use hard drives. Cheap, high capacity, and reliable. > >And make sure you keep them spinning, so that you can tell when they >fail, along with a redundant copy on another machine which you mirror to >periodically (even automatically once every N days is fine). Migrate to >newer media when the old stuff is pretty much obsolete. > >If you manage to do that, your data will long outlast any CDRs that you >store in a filing cabinet next to the computer(s). I've done that exactly. The oldest of the lot is a ST506 from 1982 that still runs CP/M and still has stiction since day one! Other than the need to give it a manual twist it's been relaible. Of course that data is backed up to a newer Quantum 31mb (AKA RD52) and thats been backed up to a newer 45MB SCSI and a newer still 52mb SCSI and so on. Along with 8", 5.25, and 3.5" floppy copies and those on the PCs where that process sorta repeats itself it would be hard to create a total loss. The key is many copies, in many places and at lest a few on current or reasonably current media. Allison From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Oct 9 17:51:21 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 17:51:21 -0500 Subject: Great Shipment Today Message-ID: <014c01c5cd23$f91a3180$5c406b43@66067007> A Budget rental truck pulled in today a load of items: 22 cases of books, 2 scopes (tube types-Teks), 2 printer/plotters, DATUM disk controller, Inex 6800 microcomputer system, Scientific micro system dual 8" floppy drive and controller, Atari Gravitar Video arcade game, and many other items. Took 3 1/2 hours to unload and store it all. From one of the book boxes I pulled digital logic handbook 1972 and it's a great read. There is a section on the LAB series with great pictures, one on hardware, power supplies, accessory modules, cables, and many other items. It's about 484 pages. Once I get a chance open all the book boxes and test out the hardware I will list the items fully. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 9 18:14:33 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:14:33 -0700 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <0IO40057G76L5WW3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IO40057G76L5WW3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510091614330922.53E759C3@10.0.0.252> >I've done that exactly. The oldest of the lot is a ST506 from 1982 that >still runs CP/M and still has stiction since day one! With the old MFM/RLL drives, of course, you also need to preserve the controller and maybe the hardware below that. SCSI is pretty straightforward, however. I wonder how well floppies would survive if they were vacuum-packed and stored in a dark cool place. IOW, are there any chemical reactions that contribute to the degradation of the medium other than those created by heat and air and environmental contaminants. I suppose that there's always that gold-plated disc that was attached to Voyager... :) --Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Oct 9 18:24:42 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:24:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fwd: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051009160855.445727e8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051008181059.109f407e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20051008160143.04bdfbe0@mail> <3.0.6.16.20051008181059.109f407e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20051009160855.445727e8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4337.192.168.0.5.1128900282.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sun, October 9, 2005 5:08 pm, Joe R. said: > other that you could name and none of them had a fraction of troubles that > I constantly had. I was a poor college student and could afford anything > else so I stuck with (or got stuck with!) a Sanyo for three years and I > used it A LOT. I DESPISE the things! That's what makes them collectable, no? :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Oct 9 18:29:50 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 18:29:50 -0500 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E584A@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200510092339.j99Ndaen016165@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Aperture cards. An IBM punch card with a square of film in > it. Nope. I know what an aperture card is. This was something entirely different. The little piece of film has some hole at one end to shove (pull?) it around with. The other writer was correct. The little cases the things were in vaguely resembled the little cases you might see a whole bunch of single edge razor blades in. The reader would pull the right cartridge, then pull the right film, then read the patterns. There was no paper attached to this and the file did not contain an image like an aperture card does. It was data stored in a black and white pattern on the film Gil From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Sun Oct 9 18:43:04 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analyzer was Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051009154616.44570890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20051009234304.59701.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Joe R." wrote: > *&)*&)*&(*^&))! I have a standing search for them > on E-bay > =R10&catref=C6&satitle=%28HP%2Chewlett%29++%28E2310A%2CLogicDart%29+-%22acce > ssory+kit%22&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&bs=Search&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200 > &fpos=ZIP%2FPostal&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D2>. > Obviously it'snot working. &*&^! One just sold for > $150. I found complex searches like this work sometimes, and for no reason stop working, then a few weeks later work again. The most complex ebay search I found to work reliably is a simple 'OR', anything more then that and your asking for trouble. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Oct 9 18:47:56 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 18:47:56 -0500 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200510092357.j99NvfUD016437@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Actually, it's quite common for large-ish machinery to need > shipping bolts, clamps, etc to be fitted. I can think of a > lot of non-computer-related examples. Lots of the older large disk drives had a restraining bolt that would lock the heads into a retracted position when you were going to ship it. The CDC 9762 is one I am familiar with. Gil > > -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 9 19:41:07 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:41:07 +0100 Subject: Unix on BBC micro with 16032 coprocessor In-Reply-To: <2ddaa6ea0510081032jd142dfej@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddaa6ea0510081032jd142dfej@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4349B8A3.6020400@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Hollobon wrote: > Does anyone know if Xenix / Unix were ever available on the NS 16032 second > processor for the BBC micro? I remember reading that it was intended to be > made available in the user's guide years ago. > I don't *think* it ever saw the light of day. As others have mentioned, it was planned for the ABC 2xx / Cambridge Workstation machines, but I don't think it was anything more than vapourware. Occasionally I see comments along the lines of most people ditching PANOS on the ACW in favour of Xenix - but I'm yet to find any evidence from talking to people who origianlly owned the machines back in the day that this was the case. Would Xenix likely even run in the 1MB of the BBC Micro's 32016 copro? I can believe it'd be usable on the 4MB of the ACW, but might be pushing it a bit in 1MB. cheers Jules From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Oct 9 20:05:55 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 18:05:55 -0700 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510091500540808.53A3EC39@10.0.0.252> (Chuck Guzis's message of "Sun, 09 Oct 2005 15:00:54 -0700") References: <200510092034.j99KYETK013415@keith.ezwind.net> <200510091500540808.53A3EC39@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510100105.j9A15tOA089486@lots.reanimators.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Found it! -- after I posted I heard my memory saying "Photostore?".... > > The IBM 1360 Photostore. Google's got plenty on it. There's a book, Digital Computer Analysis by James F. Turner, which has a couple pages on it. Data are stored on photographic film "chips" which hold 32 frames and are 1.38 x 2.75 inches in size. 492 tracks per frame, each holding 420 bits, including check, start, sync, and line number bits. A modulated electron beam is used to write pairs of tracks (the beam is swept both ways). The chips are stored in "cells", and the cells are stored in drawers in "cell files" which are connected to the recording and reading stations by pneumatic tubes. And yes, the idea was that you could build one with sufficient cell files to store a terabit. -Frank McConnell From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 9 20:11:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 02:11:11 +0100 Subject: Unix on BBC micro with 16032 coprocessor In-Reply-To: <4349747F.mail8LU11DX7L@gtoal.com> References: <200510091537.j99FbNWH075192@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4349747F.mail8LU11DX7L@gtoal.com> Message-ID: <4349BFAF.3060409@yahoo.co.uk> Graham Toal wrote: > To the best of my recollection this was only ever talked about but > never implemented by anyone at Acorn. If it was done externally I > have no knowlege of it. I was one of the 3 or 4 people who argued > in favour of us selling the systems with Unix but Acorn was very much > a 'not invented here' company. I think way back then there were > also significant costs associatated with licensing Unix, plus there > were few ports to archiectures other than Vax and 68000. (apologies for cc: - I'm not sure whether you read list traffic regularly or not!) I've certainly got some old Acorn documentation with employees moaning about the costs involved when it came to looking at licencing in the early days of RISCiX; from memory (all that data's 4000 miles away right now!) off-the-shelf alternatives to developing RISCiX were being seriously considered. > While we're on the subject of the NS processor... A couple of years ago > I got in touch with Peter Robertson, the author of Acorn's compilers for > that system (Pascal, C and Imp77) in the hope of getting the source of > the compiler from him. Unfortunately he had not kept a copy of that code > generator. I vaguely remember that there were sources escrowed somewhere > at the time. Obviously the escrow will be long gone, but on the vague > offchance that someone from Acorn retained a copy... does anyone have the > source code for that compiler? (Really just the back-end Icode to > binary Pass3, but _anything_ anyone has is wanted for the Edinburgh > Computer History Project!) I *might* have copies. I've certainly got some PANOS-related sources back home (as you say, all in Modula-2). Won't be able to check until I get back mid-November though. Those showed up on a disk just before I left the UK, so I haven't had a chance to have a proper look through yet! > By the way I have copies of quite a few binaries for this platform. Oh boy. I'd *really* appreciate copies if you've got anything other than the standard PANOS release binaries. I've been searching for anything written for the ACW (or the 32016 beeb copro) for a few years now, without much luck. QuickChip CAD was about the only thing I know of that was ever run on the ACW which wasn't made by Acorn (other than student assignments at Cambridge uni) - and it's not clear there whether it all just ran on the B+ side of things anyway rather than being a 32016 port. (I've got floppy install images, so can find out sometime when I have the time and one of the ACWs out of storage!) There was some 32016 code floating around at York uni years back (1993-ish) and annoyingly I never backed up a copy :-( (I didn't have the interest in preserving the less-common Acorn machines back then that I do now) > Has anyone ever written an emulator for this architecture? I haven't > found one. It ought to be an easy one to write, it was a very regular > instruction set. My guess for why there isn't one is that it was > never a very popular chip, but that hasn't stopped emulators being > written for lots of other obscure architectures! I can imagine that > it wouldn't take much more than just a basic instruction set emulator > to make Panos live again, as the I/O could be done by emulating an > I/O processor Beeb and the tube chip. There must be several Beeb > emulators around that can handle second processors to which we > could graft a NS emulator? Well there are around ten ACWs left that I know of (or at least have known of over the last few years; I'm not actively keeping track), which isn't bad considering that only 50 or so seem to have been made way back when! So PANOS is alive and well, just not very common :) But yeah, from what I know of the instruction set's pretty easy for the 32016 (relevant manual should be on bitsavers, about 30MB IIRC). BeebEm allows emulated coprocessors and of course is multi platform which is always a good thing. How easy it is to add a new one I don't know though, but presumably the relevant TUBE ULA emulation code should be in the 6502 copro module which ships with BeebEm, so it's a case of plugging 32016 code into that and you're away. I'll have a dig around once I'm back in the UK though as someone was working on a 32016 emulator I believe a while ago - just can't remember who or the context, but I'll have it in email archives back in the UK. Might be relevant. cheers Jules From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 9 20:16:24 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 20:16:24 -0500 Subject: Dying PCjr drive; options? In-Reply-To: <20051009032129.UUIW5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20051009032129.UUIW5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <4349C0E8.10105@oldskool.org> Dave Dunfield wrote: > - Run ImageDisk, select the drive etc. and execute the A)lign/Test function. Sadly, the drive is so far off that I can't get the thing to boot at all to run ImageDisk :-( But thanks for the instructions; I will clip'n'save them. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Oct 9 20:23:06 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:23:06 -0500 Subject: Unix on BBC micro with 16032 coprocessor In-Reply-To: <4349B8A3.6020400@yahoo.co.uk> References: <2ddaa6ea0510081032jd142dfej@mail.gmail.com> <4349B8A3.6020400@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051009202306.38634e55.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:41:07 +0100 Jules Richardson wrote: > Pete Hollobon wrote: > > Does anyone know if Xenix / Unix were ever available on the NS 16032 > > second processor for the BBC micro? I remember reading that it was > > intended to be made available in the user's guide years ago. > > > > I don't *think* it ever saw the light of day. As others have > mentioned, it was planned for the ABC 2xx / Cambridge Workstation > machines, but I don't think it was anything more than vapourware. > > Occasionally I see comments along the lines of most people ditching > PANOS on the ACW in favour of Xenix - but I'm yet to find any evidence > > from talking to people who origianlly owned the machines back in the > day that this was the case. > > Would Xenix likely even run in the 1MB of the BBC Micro's 32016 copro? > I can believe it'd be usable on the 4MB of the ACW, but might be > pushing it a bit in 1MB. Xenix runs fine in the 512KB of the Altos 586, and supports multiple users in that memory. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 9 20:20:18 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 20:20:18 -0500 Subject: Dying PCjr drive; options? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4349C1D2.3020202@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > This sounds (!) like it's not detecting track 0 correctly, it's just > banging the head into the end stop. > > My first thought is to clean the track 0 sensor (has it got dust in the > gap), then sit down with the drive and test gear and debug the circuitry. I'm starting from ground zero. Where *is* the track 0 sensor? (a hard thing to describe without pictures, I know... sorry) > No, it's a standard half-height 360K floppy drive. IIRC the original was > a Qumetrack or something, which has a bad reputation. I've had three go out on me in a decade... come to think of it, I've only had 4 floppy drives die on me in a decade, so that indeed makes the Qumetrack the worst in my experience :-/ -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ken at seefried.com Sun Oct 9 20:57:07 2005 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:57:07 -0400 Subject: Unix on BBC micro with 16032 coprocessor In-Reply-To: <200510100118.j9A1IRMm083353@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510100118.j9A1IRMm083353@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4349CA73.5080203@seefried.com> From: Jules Richardson >Would Xenix likely even run in the 1MB of the BBC Micro's 32016 copro? I >can believe it'd be usable on the 4MB of the ACW, but might be pushing >it a bit in 1MB. Xenix would certainly run in 1MB of memory. That is...at least on the i286 (512K was the minimum when I was subjected to Xenix). As I recall, it ran in even less on the 8086. On the Tandy 16 (68000), I *think* it ran in 256K, but please don't hold me to that. I understand that it also ran on the z8000, but I never saw that. I don't recall ever seeing that Xenix was ported to the 32016 for any machine. BSD4 was, of course, among other Unixen of dubious lineage. Considering the bugs, it's amazing any of them worked. Of course...why you would want to run Xenix on something other than a PoS system, other than to say you did, is a bit beyond me...;-) From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 21:25:13 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 22:25:13 -0400 Subject: Best OS/2 1.3 or 2.1 Machine In-Reply-To: <00e501c5cb89$208bfb50$0500fea9@game> References: <43468586.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> <200510070913470002.4819660D@10.0.0.252> <4346A76D.9050504@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <200510071026440939.485C3623@10.0.0.252> <200510072140.RAA10579@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00e501c5cb89$208bfb50$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <4349D109.9000204@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > I was wondering since IBM produced OS/2 did any of their machines (PS/2 > series maybe) run OS/2 better then clones or other companies machines. I > have OS/2 1.1 Extended up to 4.0 in my collection and was thinking of > getting a dedicated machine to test them out on. Since I have used Warp > before I was thinking about trying the older versions like 2.1. > > Any ideas? PS/2 Model 80 or Model 95. Or if you want something smaller, a Model 90. Peace... Sridhar From ikvsabre at comcast.net Sun Oct 9 21:43:29 2005 From: ikvsabre at comcast.net (Joe Stevenson) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 22:43:29 -0400 Subject: identifying PC Simms In-Reply-To: References: <200509291700.j8TH0cVt099376@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200510092243290593.1A1F4299@smtp.comcast.net> Hey, thanks for the info. I followed your advice, and determined that I have 16x 4MB-SIMM (parity) 70ns Not much street value anymore, I know, but better 4MB than 1BM :-) Joe On 9/29/2005 at 9:19 PM Jeff Walther wrote: *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** >>Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:53:00 -0400 >>From: "Joe Stevenson" > >>I have 16 30-pin simms left over from various past incarnations of >>my PCs, and I'm >> trying to figure out what I've got. > >> I no longer have a motherboard to test them, so I have no idea what is >what. >> >>Is there any not-to-painless way to figure out what I've got? > >Not all that painless, but the only way I know that works... > >Take a SIMM. Count the number of chips. Find the model markings on >one of the chips. There are usually two or three lines of writing on >a chip. One of these will be a date or batch code and is irrelevant. >The line you want will start with a one, two or three (usually two) >character manufacturer code (e.g., K or KM for Samsung, TC for >Toshiba, M(numeral)M for Mitsubishi, HM or HN for Hitachi, etc.), >followed by some longish, about four to eight, alphanumeric code >which is mostly numerals, then a dash or space and a speed number in >nanoseconds, which may or may not have the trailing zero truncated. > >For example: HM5116400BS-8, MSM511000C-7, KM44C16100B-5, TC514400AJ-6. > >Then go to a datasheet archive such as > and enter the part number in the >search field. It often helps to truncate the trailing characters >back to the first number in the body. E.g. HM5116400, MSM511000, >KM44C16100, etc. > >The datasheet will tell you the capacity and organization of the >chip. For example, a 1 MB 30 pin SIMM with eight chips on it will be >composed of 1M X 1 chips. These have one million addresses with 1 >bit at each address. Eight of them working in parallel provide 1 >million addresses with eight bits at each address or 1 megabyte. > >Multiply the total capacity of the chip by the number of chips on the >SIMM. Remember that you're working with bits here, not bytes. >Divide by 8 and you've got the capacity in megabytes--except... > >Some SIMMs are parity SIMM and they are based on 9 bits of data >rather than 8 bits of data, so you'll need to divide that capacity by >9, not by eight for a parity SIMM. A 30 pin parity SIMM will have >nine or three chips instead of eight or two, so they're fairly easy >to identify. > >However, a three chip 30 pin SIMM will have two chips with a certain >capacity and a third chip with 1/4 the capacity or either of the >other two. In this case, calculate the total capacity of the two >larger chips and divide by eight. Or find the capacity in bits of >one big chip and divide by four. > >In most cases, if the SIMM has eight or nine chips, then the capacity >in bytes is equal to the number of addresses any of the chips >supports (see the datasheet). If the SIMM has three chips, then the >capacity in bytes is still equal to the number of address which any >of the three chips supports. > >For example, you find a three chip SIMM with two 4M X 4 chips and one >4M X 1 chip on board. The capacity of this SIMM is 4MB or 4 >Megabytes. You find a SIMM with eight or nine 4M X 1 chips on board, >its capacity is also 4MB. > >The real trick is figureing out the capacity of the chips from the >markings on them. Google searches sometimes help, but often (almost >always) just lead you to chip distributers spamming the search engine >space with part numbers to lead part searches to their sites. They >often don't even have the chip in question, and rarely have any >useful information available on their website. > >SIMMs that can steer you wrong are composite SIMMs where groups of >smaller capacity chips are used to build a higher capacity SIMM. For >example, building a 16 MB 30 pin SIMM out of eight 4M X 4 chips. >These are rare and should be easily identified because there should >be a non-memory chip on board to handle the address translations. > >Jeff Walther *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** From recycler at swbell.net Sun Oct 9 22:14:06 2005 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 22:14:06 -0500 Subject: 8 old computers to go, and vaxstation stands. Dallas TX Message-ID: <4349DC7E.804@swbell.net> where else ya gonna get 8 PCs for $1 ? compaq luggables and deskpros, XT to 386 types, all for one deal. ebay Item number: 8707188867 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8707188867 and if you want stands for your 4000 series vaxstations, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8707191662 PJ From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 23:40:03 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:40:03 -0400 Subject: Best OS/2 1.3 or 2.1 Machine In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.4.2.20051008071804.03375558@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <008801c5cbcb$240abbd0$0500fea9@game> <6.2.5.4.2.20051008071804.03375558@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <4349F0A3.8010203@gmail.com> John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > .... > Actually, that is incorrect. > There are a LOT of people who still collect the older workstation > PS/2's. Some places have entire sites dedicated to just that. A lot of > chatter on the ibm.ps/2 google groups is around workstations and not > servers for ps/2. There is also an entire google group that is active > that discusses the various uses of OS/2 and some bullshit knockoff known > as e-comstation (often referred to by IBM'ers as e-con - as in conning > you out of your money). Uhhh. No. e-Comstation works just fine with a whole load of features that WSeB doesn't have. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 10 00:18:30 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 22:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TS computers (was PalmOS no more?) In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Oct 9, 5 10:32:05 am" Message-ID: <200510100518.WAA09510@floodgap.com> > > > As far as T/S units, there's the 1000 (ZX-81), the 1500 (81 on roids), the > > > 2048, basically a 48K ZX Spectrum with better video > > > > Cameron, have you ever seen a US-made TS2048? To my knowledge they > > never made it into production. > > I found mine in a local thrift store. I don't know where it was made > though. 2048 or *2068*? There's a difference ^_^ I suspect you have a 2068. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Magic Eight Ball vs. Microsoft: "Outlook not so good" ---------------------- From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sun Oct 9 06:35:31 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 07:35:31 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> References: <200510080825.j988PgPn047793@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> Message-ID: <6.2.5.4.2.20051009073434.032ebda0@boff-net.dhs.org> Or you can use an external USB to floppy interface enclosure. A few on the list have commented on their use and types. In theory, you could have many, many drives this way. -John Boffemmyer IV At 05:25 PM 10/8/2005, you wrote: >On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 03:25:49 -0500 (CDT), cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 22 > > Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:51:09 -0700 > > From: jim stephens > > Subject: Re: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I am still slowly getting over my long painful struggle to get > > > two floppy drives enabled on a Dell Optiplex system. There's support > > > for a second floppy in the BIOS but it appears the hardware support is > > > entirely missing. I had to just do away with the 3-1/2" disk to get a > > > 5-1/4" disk installed in one of my (many, since I get them for < $5 all > > > kitted out with Pentium III processors) beloved (!!??!!) Optiplex boxes. > > > Was there THAT much savings in not including hardware support for two > > > floppies, DELL? Why not patch settings for the second drive out of the > > > BIOS so we don't pound our heads against the wall trying?? > > > > > > I'm curious about the comment about second drive support missing. I > > am curious why the addition of a proper multiheaded cable doesnt > > fix this? > > > > they actually dont drive the drive select in the cable? > >I built a new machine around an EPoX 9NPA nForce 4 motherboard and found >out to my surprise that it was only capable of running one floppy drive. >In my case the BIOS provides no way to enable a second drive, so at >least it's consistent. Having a BIOS that lets you put in settings for >a second drive when the hardware doesn't support it would really be a >screwup. > >EPoX makes schematics available, so I downloaded one and studied it to >try to confirm whether there really was no way to get a second drive to >work. It turns out the super-IO chip they use to run the floppies and >several other system functions (fan control, temperature sensors, serial >and parallel ports, etc.) has only a limited number of pins. Several >have multiple functions, and the motherboard designer has to select >which function he wants to use for each pin and do without the others. >EPoX chose to use the pins that could have driven the second floppy's >motor-on and drive select for other functions (I forget what offhand). >So those pins are no-connects on the floppy cable. > >As a small compensation, it's possible to reconfigure the parallel port >as an external floppy connector. If you do that, you can put two drives >on it. (Whoopee.) > >This all is not a huge deal for me since I can pop a Catweasel card into >the machine if I really want more floppies in it, but it's a bit annoying. > >-- >Tim Mann tim at tim-mann.org http://tim-mann.org/ > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/124 - Release Date: 10/7/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/124 - Release Date: 10/7/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/124 - Release Date: 10/7/2005 From shannon068 at centurytel.net Sun Oct 9 07:45:16 2005 From: shannon068 at centurytel.net (Shannon Spurling) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 07:45:16 -0500 Subject: System 23 Data Master information In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.4.2.20051008071804.03375558@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <008801c5cbcb$240abbd0$0500fea9@game> <6.2.5.4.2.20051008071804.03375558@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <434910DC.9020206@centurytel.net> Hi, I'm new to the list, but not new to classic computers. I picked up a rare beast (Apparently) years ago when I bought a System 23 tower system at a thrift shop years ago, and it's been sitting in my basement for a few years after a rough life in makeshift storage. I want to see if I can get this thing cleaned up and running, but there's no system 23 docs, much less even any acknowledgment of there being a tower format for that system. Any help would be appreciated, but schematics would be the best. Thanks From jclang at notms.net Sun Oct 9 16:21:53 2005 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 17:21:53 -0400 Subject: TEC FD-50x drives - known issues? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05100917215300.09156@bell> On Sunday 09 October 2005 08:34, you wrote: > > >A disk drive performs several different functions. In particular, it > > >rotates the disk, it detects the index hole and write protect notch, it > > >moves the heads between cylinders and detects the track0 position, and > > > it actually does the reading and writing. > > > > This much I actually know :-) > > One of the problems with this list is that it's impossible to know the > knowledge/skill level of the person asking the question. > > Your original question did seem to suggest you thoguth of the floppy > drive as a single unit, whereas as we both know, it's a collection of > several systems. It certainly helps if we both know which of those > systems is the problem. > > > >Do you know which, if any, of these systems are working? Can you get the > > >disk to spin? Do you get an index pulse? Can you get the head to move? > > >And so on. > > > > All functions appear to work (Motor, Index, Step) - problem in all cases > > is in the read/write circuitry. Drive goes through all the motions, it > > just can't read/write. > > Ah, right (or is that Ah... Write :-)). Can you identify the read > amplifier chain (often using NE592 ICs), or is it hidden in an ASIC. > > In the latter case, look for a pair of LC filter networks connected to > the ASIC. The read chain almost always consists of differential > amplifiers right up to the final comparator stage, so you expect filters > to come in pairs, etc. If you can find a pair of test point pins > associated with those, then they're almost certainly the outputs you'd > use for head alignemt. Hook a 'scope with differential inputs to those, > try reading a normal disk (never put an alignment disk into a dodgy > drive!). Do the signals look at all sane? > > > It may come to this - At least I do have a couple of working drives > > that I can compare signals with - but I asked in case a) someone has > > the technical documentation or b) someone might say "oh yeah, thats > > a common problem caused by xxx...", either of which could save me a > > lot of time. > > I don't know how complicated these drives are, but I can't believe it > would tkae more than a day to figure out the read amplifier section, even > if it is hidden in the ASIC. Sometimes it's quicker to just sit down and > have a go :-) > > > I think I agree with Allison however that these drives are crap, and > > I'm not sure I want to spend a lot of time on them if suitable > > substitutes can be found - in this case, the physical constraints make > > this a but more challenging. > > Well, I like to keep my machines as close to original as possible. > > -tony That fired a few brain cells that haven't been active for a long while... Oh yeah..that's a common problem caused by the small inductors in the read amplifier going open. too much stress on the leads. Add a couple of years and bingo no read. joe lang From awmolloy at landsnail.com Sun Oct 9 22:25:48 2005 From: awmolloy at landsnail.com (Andrew Molloy) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ZEDA model 580 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <200510081458.j98Ew47S086500@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20051010032548.55176.qmail@web52912.mail.yahoo.com> I exhibited one of these at VCF East last year. Got it from Ray Borrill. With the help of a friend, we brought it back to life after replacing many capacitors on the main board, as well as one of the video graphic chips (well, he did all the work, I just watched). Oh, and the power supply caps went too! Someday I plan to create a web page about it and post all the documentation, schematics, and dealer info. I'd like to find a way to create disk images of all the old floppies before they vaporize. Andy --- Gil Carrick wrote: > Interesting looking CPM system on eBay. On the left > coast of the USA. Has an > interesting story with it. > > item # 8706303939 > > Gil > > From gilcarrick at comcast.net Mon Oct 10 01:38:20 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:38:20 -0500 Subject: System 23 Data Master information In-Reply-To: <434910DC.9020206@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <200510100648.j9A6m32K022594@keith.ezwind.net> Try this guy. Gabriel Bakker (tree.sage at gmail.com) He works for a software house that maintains to this day some applications that originated on the System 23. I don't know the name of the company - believe they are in Fla. They probably have some information. You can use my name. Let me know if you have any success. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE Coach - ICPC Programming Team University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Spurling > Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 7:45 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: System 23 Data Master information > > Hi, I'm new to the list, but not new to classic computers. > I picked up a rare beast (Apparently) years ago when I bought a System > 23 tower system at a thrift shop years ago, and it's been > sitting in my basement for a few years after a rough life in > makeshift storage. I want to see if I can get this thing > cleaned up and running, but there's no system 23 docs, much > less even any acknowledgment of there being a tower format > for that system. Any help would be appreciated, but > schematics would be the best. > > Thanks > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 10 02:53:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ACMS: Dispersal Day at Homebush. (fwd) Message-ID: FYI to all you Aussies...see below. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:49:07 +1000 From: "John Geremin, Computer Engineer." Reply-To: VCF-OZ at yahoogroups.com To: VCF-OZ at yahoogroups.com Subject: [VCF-OZ] ACMS: Dispersal Day at Homebush. Greetings friends, The President has decided that there is to be a Dispersal Day at the Australian Computer Museum Society storage shed at Homebush (due to lack of financial support from State or Federal governments). Items - include Hardware, Software, Media, Documentation, Furniture. Place - Rear, 6 Parramatta Road, HOMEBUSH, 2140. Entry via Columbia Lane, [next to Kennards Self Storage] Time - approx 9am to 4pm, Date - Sunday, 16th October, 2005 Prices - starting at $1 - all reasonable offers considered. Bring - your own transport and muscle power for moving items. Regards, John G. John GEREMIN, Ph 02-9758 5686 or 0427 10 20 60 note: new E-MAIL address geremin at iprimus.com.au ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Australian COMPUTER MUSEUM Society Inc. ABN 89 972 080 502. Looking for a site for 'A Working Australian Computing Museum'. http://www.acms.org.au/ my mobile: 0427 10 20 60 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ My web page http://home.iprimus.com.au/geremin/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13 - Release Date: 09-Oct-05 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/S_NqlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VCF-OZ/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: VCF-OZ-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 10 03:35:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <200510091423490486.5381F7A5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/9/2005 at 11:42 AM Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >This is over-stated quite grandly. The Apple ][ disk system was > >extremely reliable. And it still is. My 20 year old disks still read and > >write just fine. > > Overstated or not, an 8 bit simple arithmetic checksum to guard 256 > (actually 410) data bytes is pretty weak. You'd have a point if it didn't work so well ;) > On more than one occasion, not a hint of an error flag was raised when a > bad sector was read. I noted that the corrupted data had the same > checksum as what the correct data woiuld have had. With only an 8-bit checksum it is entirely possible this can happen, but in all my vast experience working on the Apple ][ I have never (knowingly) come across this problem. When doing data recovery on Apple ][ disks, you normally want to disable checksum checking anyway so that you can see what the DOS is reading and then try to recover. But as far as the Disk ][ controller and GCR encoding goes, don't equate simple with shoddy: it is an extremely robust system. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 10 03:37:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <20051009142054.B18588@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > Think of Emmanuel Goldberg's "Rapid Selector", > and Vannevar Bush's Memex copy of it. > (movie film microfilm, with binary optical filing data alongside) Thanks for the extremely obscure but highly informative reference to Emmanuel Goldberg! I didn't know about this. http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/~buckland/statistical.html -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 10 03:40:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510091614330922.53E759C3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I wonder how well floppies would survive if they were vacuum-packed and > stored in a dark cool place. IOW, are there any chemical reactions that > contribute to the degradation of the medium other than those created by > heat and air and environmental contaminants. An interesting proposition. Does plastic still out-gas even if it's vacuum-packed? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 10 03:46:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 01:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TS computers (was PalmOS no more?) In-Reply-To: <200510100518.WAA09510@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > As far as T/S units, there's the 1000 (ZX-81), the 1500 (81 on roids), the > > > > 2048, basically a 48K ZX Spectrum with better video > > > > > > Cameron, have you ever seen a US-made TS2048? To my knowledge they > > > never made it into production. > > > > I found mine in a local thrift store. I don't know where it was made > > though. > > 2048 or *2068*? There's a difference ^_^ > > I suspect you have a 2068. D'OH! Sorry, you're right. old-computers.com has a nice write-up: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=935 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Oct 10 06:17:20 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:17:20 -0400 Subject: Dying PCjr drive; options? Message-ID: <20051010111719.UQYB5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 20:16 09/10/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Dave Dunfield wrote: >> - Run ImageDisk, select the drive etc. and execute the A)lign/Test function. > >Sadly, the drive is so far off that I can't get the thing to boot at all to run >ImageDisk :-( But thanks for the instructions; I will clip'n'save them. Actually, it never occured to me that anyone would try to do this by booting from the drive. I was thinking that you would pull the drive and drop it onto a working system. One thing I have on my bench which is very handy, is the PC has modified drive cable which brings drive 'B' out to a 37-pin 'D' connector on the back, and a plug-in cable to allow me to easily connect external drives. I use this both for testing drives, and for imaging from/to 5.25" and 8" drives. I have details/photos on how to make the cables and adapters posted to my site. Look at "Disks/Software images" near the bottom, and then "notes on connecting an 8" drive. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Oct 10 08:08:38 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:08:38 +0200 Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <434781C6.DDE5D717@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <434A83F6.17835.CAD80A2@localhost> Am 8 Oct 2005 1:22 meinte Brent Hilpert: > So I was listenting to a radio play (a police investigation/drama) on the CBC > (Canadian Broadcasting Corp.) today in which the plot centred around recovering > data (the offshore bank account #, how cliche) from the dead guy's ancient > Apple II/e. > (The dead guy was apparently like a lot of people on this list: still used an > old machine for his main/daily computing ...just so you all know you're > actually getting portrayal in the popular arts :/ ) > Well, that went by me OK, then they threw in the plot twist: the guy wasn't > using the standard OS, he was using an oddball system which was going to make > the data recovery more problematic, that system being CP/M. At this point my > pedantic-critic bells went off. So somebody either confirm my pedanticism or > show me up as the ignorant one: nobody ever bothered to rewrite CP/M (which to > my understanding was all targeted to Intel procs) for the Apple II did they? There was a little thingy called the Microsoft Soft Card. Basicly a Z80 that did put the Apple in DMA-Mode and took over the system. very crude and simple hardware, effective speed was somewhere arround 1.5 MHz, since after each Z80 instruction, the 6502 got one cycle to refresh its registers. MS did sell the card in a package with CP/M and Basic or Fortran. Yeah, those where the good old days when using microsoft products was cool - or at least o.k. from a geeks view. The basic I/O was done via a switchback to the 6502. > ... maybe the scriptwriting 'computing consultant' figured it would be a good > inside joke, ... maybe it's somebody on this list! Nope, it seams like a rare case where script writer did realy use technology without screwing it up. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com Mon Oct 10 08:33:53 2005 From: Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:33:53 +0100 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: Not sure if I repled to this... But anyway, I founf somebody who can do it, but thanks anyway! Kieron > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 06 October 2005 16:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data > > If your customer will ship the media up the coast to Eugene, > OR, we'll do the conversion, no matter what the format is, > even if it isn't CP/M. Our fee depends on the number of diskettes. > > We've had a little experience at this. :) > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > ============================ Pareto Investment Management Limited is a Mellon Financial Company. Pareto Investment Management Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority (Firm Ref. No. 416024), and registered in England and Wales with Number 03169281. Registered Office: Mellon Financial Centre, 160 Queen Victoria Street, London EC4V 4LA, United Kingdom. Pareto is the registered trademark of Pareto Investment Management Limited. This message may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator and then immediately delete this message. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 10 08:39:21 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:39:21 -0400 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: <0IO500IXDCKH9I35@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data > From: "Kieron Wilkinson" > Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:33:53 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >Not sure if I repled to this... But anyway, I founf somebody who can do >it, but thanks anyway! > >Kieron > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis >> Sent: 06 October 2005 16:53 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: RE: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data >> >> If your customer will ship the media up the coast to Eugene, >> OR, we'll do the conversion, no matter what the format is, >> even if it isn't CP/M. Our fee depends on the number of diskettes. >> >> We've had a little experience at this. :) >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> >> >> >> > >============================ >Pareto Investment Management Limited is a Mellon Financial Company. Pareto Investment Management Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority (Firm Ref. No. 416024), and registered in England and Wales with Number 03169281. Registered Office: Mellon Financial Centre, 160 Queen Victoria Street, London EC4V 4LA, United Kingdom. Pareto is the registered trademark of Pareto Investment Management Limited. This message may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator and then immediately delete this message. > From Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com Mon Oct 10 08:39:49 2005 From: Kieron.Wilkinson at paretopartners.com (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:39:49 +0100 Subject: 8" floppy system needed to recover old game data Message-ID: Wow. Thanks to the 10's (!!) of people who have offered to help me with this! I still need to wade my way though all the replies :) Anyway, I have had an offer for somebody who can go round there personally. Hopefully the disks are not already stuffed so we can get a copy of this previously-thought-lost game! I'll post an update on this list when I know more. I very much appreciate the great response! Kieron Wilkinson ============================ Pareto Investment Management Limited is a Mellon Financial Company. Pareto Investment Management Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority (Firm Ref. No. 416024), and registered in England and Wales with Number 03169281. Registered Office: Mellon Financial Centre, 160 Queen Victoria Street, London EC4V 4LA, United Kingdom. Pareto is the registered trademark of Pareto Investment Management Limited. This message may contain confidential and privileged information and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator and then immediately delete this message. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 10 10:19:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? In-Reply-To: <434A83F6.17835.CAD80A2@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Hans Franke wrote: > > ... maybe the scriptwriting 'computing consultant' figured it would be a good > > inside joke, ... maybe it's somebody on this list! > > Nope, it seams like a rare case where script writer did > realy use technology without screwing it up. Can Brent get the name of the play that he heard so we can figure out who the author is? It sounds like they might even be a collector/historian ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 10 10:57:39 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:57:39 -0700 Subject: System 23 Data Master information Message-ID: <0f875d675b73877b2abd4df645077073@bitsavers.org> > Hi, I'm new to the list, but not new to classic computers. > I picked up a rare beast (Apparently) years ago when I bought a System > 23 tower system at a thrift shop years ago, and it's been > sitting in my basement for a few years after a rough life in > makeshift storage. I want to see if I can get this thing > cleaned up and running I just picked up a set of manuals for one. The same person has a system, and software also. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5812578529 From jplist at kiwigeek.com Mon Oct 10 11:20:36 2005 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:20:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM System/34 with diskettes & documentation available in Iowa Message-ID: Greetings folks & folkettes; It is with some sadness that I must offer up my System/34 to fellow collectors. I have never gotten a 220v hookup for it, and I need the space it lives in (my garage) for this coming winter. The unit is complete, with four disks. I have some great number of floppy disks for the machine (multi-hundred, although a bunch that came with it are formatted TRS80), 24 disk jukebox cartridges, plus a large selection of documentation and schematics. OS disks are included. For my own pickup information and details pictures of the machine and what comes with it, you can head here: http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/IBM_s34/ I expect nothing for it, I am hoping someone will come and pick it up, which I'll certainly be more than willing to help with. We live out of Hampton, Iowa (North-Central). Thanks; JP From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 10 11:28:09 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:28:09 -0600 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434A9699.9060302@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > >>I wonder how well floppies would survive if they were vacuum-packed and >>stored in a dark cool place. IOW, are there any chemical reactions that >>contribute to the degradation of the medium other than those created by >>heat and air and environmental contaminants. >> >> > >An interesting proposition. Does plastic still out-gas even if it's >vacuum-packed? > > > I would suspect yes ... I think too the computer could be kept at just above zero in a dark place in a light vacuum too. From rcini at optonline.net Mon Oct 10 12:17:00 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:17:00 -0400 Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art Message-ID: <000401c5cdbe$6d14fee0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: There's a listing on eBay for ASCII art TTY printouts (#8707360741) and it raised an interesting question. I remember as a kid going to my father's office (he worked for New York Telephone in New York City) at Christmas and they had various computer systems that they let the kids play on. One of them (I don't remember which) had a program to print calendars. In the eBay listing, there's a Snoopy Red Barron calendar, which I distinctly remember printing out. What program would have made this calendar and is one still available, somewhere, that I could run on Windows or through something like SIMH? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Oct 10 12:25:50 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: <000401c5cdbe$6d14fee0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <000401c5cdbe$6d14fee0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > In the eBay listing, there's a Snoopy Red Barron calendar, which I > distinctly remember printing out. > > What program would have made this calendar and is one still > available, somewhere, that I could run on Windows or through something like > SIMH? I used to have a FORTRAN program to make Snoopy calendars on a 360. I'll have to dig around and see if I still have the listing. This one had a picture of Snoopy on top of his doghouse. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From James at jdfogg.com Mon Oct 10 12:31:02 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:31:02 -0400 Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5853@sbs.jdfogg.com> > There's a listing on eBay for ASCII art TTY printouts > (#8707360741) and it raised an interesting question. I > remember as a kid going to my father's office (he worked for > New York Telephone in New York City) at Christmas and they > had various computer systems that they let the kids play on. > One of them (I don't remember which) had a program to print calendars. > In the eBay listing, there's a Snoopy Red Barron calendar, > which I distinctly remember printing out. I remember these! I made a printout too. I also remember taking typing classes in high school (1977) and the teacher had training books that would create a text picture if you followed the directions correctly. I wish I had them as I'd like to do some ASCII art. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 10 12:33:46 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:33:46 -0600 Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: <000401c5cdbe$6d14fee0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <000401c5cdbe$6d14fee0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <434AA5FA.9010304@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard A. Cini wrote: >All: > > There's a listing on eBay for ASCII art TTY printouts (#8707360741) >and it raised an interesting question. I remember as a kid going to my >father's office (he worked for New York Telephone in New York City) at >Christmas and they had various computer systems that they let the kids play >on. One of them (I don't remember which) had a program to print calendars. >In the eBay listing, there's a Snoopy Red Barron calendar, which I >distinctly remember printing out. > > What program would have made this calendar and is one still >available, somewhere, that I could run on Windows or through something like >SIMH? > > > The programs are still out there, but in FORTRAN IV. The biggest problem is you don't have the line printers around to give you the OVER STRIKE graphics. Look for ASCII ART on the web, I belive somebody may have solved that problem. If you can get the IBM-1130 working under SIMH I think you will have the best chance of getting it to work. Remember the graphics deck is needed as well as the program deck of cards. Ben alias woodelf PS ... I want the NUDE pin-up calendar now that I'm older ... :) Note OFF-TOPIC good pin-up calendars from JAPAN run $45 to $75 US each ... From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Oct 10 13:39:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:39:04 Subject: Electronics recycling, was HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay In-Reply-To: <200510091408400740.537419E4@10.0.0.252> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051010133904.3c57d8f4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:08 PM 10/9/05 -0700, you wrote: >On 10/9/2005 at 1:03 PM Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >>Whatever the case, we have enough problems to solve domestically that we >>shouldn't concern ourselves with what's going on 8,000 miles away. If only it would stay 8,000 miles away! EVERY lake here in Florida is polluted with mercury. Even ones that have no industry or settlements around them. They finally traced the source to China! It seems that their open burning has dumped so much mercury in the atmosphere that enough of it is settling in the lakes here to be a serious health concern. Joe From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 10 13:04:34 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:04:34 -0700 Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: <434AA5FA.9010304@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000401c5cdbe$6d14fee0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <434AA5FA.9010304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200510101104340722.0064D49F@10.0.0.252> On 10/10/2005 at 11:33 AM woodelf wrote: >PS ... I want the NUDE pin-up calendar now that I'm older ... :) The first example of this I can remember was a good-sized deck of cards that could be run through an IBM 407 as an 80-80 listing. It seems to me that some of this art was later incorporated into programs that printed calendars. I think I remember a version of the Snoopy calendar was available in the CP/M world--no overstrike printing, but not bad-looking. Maybe a search of the old archives would turn it up... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 10 13:15:25 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:15:25 -0700 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <434A9699.9060302@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <434A9699.9060302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200510101115250948.006EC47A@10.0.0.252> On 10/10/2005 at 10:28 AM woodelf wrote: >I would suspect yes ... I think too the computer could be kept at just >above zero >in a dark place in a light vacuum too. What I was wondering about was if a number of diskettes were packed in a vacuum-sealed container and placed in an underground "time capsule" or a building's cornerstone, if they'd survive 100 or so years... Cheers, Chuck From robo58 at optonline.net Mon Oct 10 13:15:34 2005 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:15:34 -0400 Subject: E&L Instruments Fox 1 Z80 Trainer chip questions References: <434A9699.9060302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000301c5cdc6$9bd4cb40$6401a8c0@P43200> Hi Folks, I recently obtained a used E&L Instruments MT-80Z microprocessor trainer. My goal is to teach my kids a little about microprocessors. The trainer has 3 empty IC sockets U1-40 pin, U10-40 pin and U-11-28 pin. The parts are missing on the board that contains the keyboard and 7 segment displays. Neither of which work, so I suspect those empty sockets require a chip or two for operations. The parts are probably Zilog or Intel PIO's and a CTC (Counter Clock Timer). Before I experiment I thought I'd run it up the flag pole and ask if anyone can identify what goes in the sockets. Thanks Robo From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 10 13:19:57 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:19:57 -0600 Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: <200510101104340722.0064D49F@10.0.0.252> References: <000401c5cdbe$6d14fee0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <434AA5FA.9010304@jetnet.ab.ca> <200510101104340722.0064D49F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <434AB0CD.1030408@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote >>PS ... I want the NUDE pin-up calendar now that I'm older ... :) >> >> > > > I always saw the Snoopy Calendars too. I think the pin up I just saw as a graphic pin-up. >The first example of this I can remember was a good-sized deck of cards that could be run through an IBM 407 as an 80-80 listing. It seems to me that some of this art was later incorporated into programs that printed calendars. > >I think I remember a version of the Snoopy calendar was available in the CP/M world--no overstrike printing, but not bad-looking. Maybe a search of the old archives would turn it up... > > I think the Snoopy Calendar was also in a BASIC program too. >--Chuck > > From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Oct 10 13:20:54 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > An interesting proposition. Does plastic still out-gas even if it's > vacuum-packed? Probably faster. I would think a helium environment would be better, but I am no chemist. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Oct 10 12:52:09 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 18:52:09 +0100 Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:17:00 EDT." <000401c5cdbe$6d14fee0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <200510101752.SAA10979@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Richard A. Cini said: > All: > > There's a listing on eBay for ASCII art TTY printouts (#8707360741) > and it raised an interesting question. I remember as a kid going to my > father's office (he worked for New York Telephone in New York City) at > Christmas and they had various computer systems that they let the kids play > on. One of them (I don't remember which) had a program to print calendars. > In the eBay listing, there's a Snoopy Red Barron calendar, which I > distinctly remember printing out. > > What program would have made this calendar and is one still > available, somewhere, that I could run on Windows or through something like > SIMH? I have a few ASCII art pics as BASIC listings, and as plain text files, including Snoopy and Spock (both on the wall behind me, on green lined paper naturally...). Adding the calender part could be done in unix with cal, of course. I could easily email 'em to you. There's a website somewhere with a whole load of them, but I forget the url. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 10 13:34:16 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:34:16 -0500 Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: <200510101752.SAA10979@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200510101752.SAA10979@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051010133329.04dfc800@mail> At 12:52 PM 10/10/2005, Stan Barr wrote: >I could easily email 'em to you. There's a website somewhere with a whole >load of them, but I forget the url. I have one among many others: http://www.threedee.com/jcm/aaa/index.html - John From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Oct 10 14:33:17 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:33:17 Subject: E&L Instruments Fox 1 Z80 Trainer chip questions In-Reply-To: <000301c5cdc6$9bd4cb40$6401a8c0@P43200> References: <434A9699.9060302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051010143317.0f379e0a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Check with Mike Haas . I gave him one of the E&L trainers but I'm not sure of the model. Joe At 02:15 PM 10/10/05 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Folks, > >I recently obtained a used E&L Instruments MT-80Z microprocessor trainer. >My goal is to teach my kids a little about microprocessors. > >The trainer has 3 empty IC sockets U1-40 pin, U10-40 pin and U-11-28 pin. >The parts are missing on the board that contains the keyboard and 7 segment >displays. Neither of which work, so I suspect those empty sockets require a >chip or two for operations. > >The parts are probably Zilog or Intel PIO's and a CTC (Counter Clock Timer). > >Before I experiment I thought I'd run it up the flag pole and ask if anyone >can identify what goes in the sockets. > >Thanks Robo > > > From mamcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Oct 10 13:55:38 2005 From: mamcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike, A) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:55:38 -0500 Subject: Archival storage Message-ID: I know aperture cards have a long life. In one of my previous work lives, 1973-1975, I copied X-ray film from 14" X 17" film to aperture cards. They were the size of computer punch cards and had a line of text typed along the top. There was a 1" X 1" film embedded in the card. We were the beta test site for Kodak for a medical image archive based on them. Retnar was the product name I think. I tried scanning them with a Vidicon camera attached to the bioengineering lab's PDP-11/20. The camera was only 256 X 256 by 8 bits per pixel, not enough resolution to recover an image. The display on the system was a RAMTEK display with 256 X 256 by 8 bits, 3 bits red, 3 bits green and 2 bits blue. I think the display system was about $50K. I still have some intact 30 years later. I am also scanning old family slides that are at least 40 years old. I think the storage conditions are the key to good longevity of film. Cool and dry is essential. I'm partial to film. My family has 16mm and 8mm film originals of family events from the last 40 years, copies on VHS tape and copies on VCD. The magnetic tape is beginning to fade. The VCD's are copies of the VHS version. The film is a pain to thread into the projector but it's still great quality. I've heard that pen on paper is very good because the ink is embedded/absorbed into the paper. This is unlike a laser printer where the plastic toner is melted onto the surface of the paper. Maybe an archival quality ink on a pen plotter on vellum is what you want. I think that's what the local plat and land documents are created on. Mike From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Oct 10 14:13:36 2005 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:13:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5853@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200510101913.OAA25406@caesar.cs.umn.edu> You can grab a Tar file with a bunch of these pictures, including the nudes, at http://realmsmud.org/~james/ascii.tar I had them on my university site years ago, but they made me take em down because of the nudes. Lawrence LeMay From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 14:17:26 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:17:26 -0700 Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051010133329.04dfc800@mail> References: <000401c5cdbe$6d14fee0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <200510101752.SAA10979@citadel.metropolis.local> <6.2.3.4.2.20051010133329.04dfc800@mail> Message-ID: My Litton 1251 came with a snoopy ASCII art calendar dated 1976 when I got it in 1982. It was on punched tape for that machine. Unfortunitely destroyed in a house fire in 1989. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From gilcarrick at comcast.net Mon Oct 10 14:25:23 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:25:23 -0500 Subject: Single Board Computers In-Reply-To: <200510101913.OAA25406@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <200510101935.j9AJZ6Ct035607@keith.ezwind.net> A while back I mentioned a couple of strange systems that had turned up in surplus here at UT Arlington, Rockwell 8315s. No luck on Google and no comments from the list, so I opened one up. It turned out to be an AIM 65/40 system. Pictures and brief notes here: http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/WhatsNew.asp I also have donated a single board computer from Western Data Systems called "The Data Handler". I bought it new back in the late '70s when I lived in Cupertino. I think their office was over in Santa Clara. There are pictures of it on this same page. Gil From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Oct 10 14:32:36 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:32:36 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art Message-ID: <9842352.1128972757245.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > What program would have made this calendar and is one still > available, somewhere, that I could run on Windows or through something like > SIMH? > > Rich I have a program on my PDP-11/40 that will print these calendars. This program is from around 1977-78 and is written in Basic-Plus. I'll have to check to see which pictures I have on my system. I have printed several, including Snoopy, the USS Starship Enterprise, and a couple more. They print ok on my LA120 DecWriter III or LA36 DecWriter II as long as I have a fresh ribbon on the DecWriters. Do you need me to give you a copy of anything? My calendar program actually reads compressed versions of the picture files, since our system ran from RK05 disks (2.5 megabytes) back in the 1970s. The version of the program that I have was developed at Wofford College around 1976 and was based on another calendar program. Thanks, Ashley From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 10 14:41:23 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:41:23 -0700 Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: <9842352.1128972757245.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9842352.1128972757245.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200510101241230765.00BD7832@10.0.0.252> On 10/10/2005 at 3:32 PM Ashley Carder wrote: >Do you need me to give you a copy of anything? My calendar program >actually reads compressed versions of the picture files, since our system >ran from RK05 disks (2.5 megabytes) back in the 1970s. The version of >the program that I have was developed at Wofford College around 1976 >and was based on another calendar program. Hmmm, wonder if it's Y2K-compliant? :) From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Oct 10 14:48:21 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:48:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art Message-ID: <16770780.1128973701474.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >>Do you need me to give you a copy of anything? My calendar program >>actually reads compressed versions of the picture files, since our system >>ran from RK05 disks (2.5 megabytes) back in the 1970s. The version of >>the program that I have was developed at Wofford College around 1976 >>and was based on another calendar program. > >Hmmm, wonder if it's Y2K-compliant? :) Surprisingly, I think the answer is YES. Actually, I seem to recall that our version would print calendars into the 21st century and beyond. I remember using the same calendar / day of week routines to do a computer programming assignment that calculated the date of Easter from the years 1500 to 2500. We did not use the built-in date functions of RSTS and Basic-Plus. I'll have to take a look at the code to verify this. Ashley From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Mon Oct 10 14:52:29 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 08:52:29 +1300 Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art References: <200510101752.SAA10979@citadel.metropolis.local> <6.2.3.4.2.20051010133329.04dfc800@mail> Message-ID: <076401c5cdd4$25a26e10$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Google for 'RTTY art' - this stuff has been around since waay before ASCII and computers. It started back in the early days of 5 unit code punched tape equipment in telegraph offices etc all round the world. More recently, radio hams into RTTY have long had a fascinatioin with it and there are many web sites out there now with info, support software and stacks of sample files. The arrival of ASCII code and wide carriage printers allowed bigger and better detail/pictures but the five unit code based art is often very good. DaveB, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 7:34 AM Subject: Re: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art > At 12:52 PM 10/10/2005, Stan Barr wrote: >>I could easily email 'em to you. There's a website somewhere with a >>whole >>load of them, but I forget the url. > > I have one among many others: > > http://www.threedee.com/jcm/aaa/index.html > > - John > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/127 - Release Date: > 10/10/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/127 - Release Date: 10/10/2005 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 10 14:54:47 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.4.2.20051009073434.032ebda0@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <200510080825.j988PgPn047793@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> <6.2.5.4.2.20051009073434.032ebda0@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <20051010125318.F64864@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Or you can use an external USB to floppy interface enclosure. A few > on the list have commented on their use and types. In theory, you > could have many, many drives this way. And one of the main comments in that discussion, was that NOBODY knows of a source for one that isn't heavily integrated with the drive electronics, resulting in unavailability of any that could be used for anything other than 3.5" From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Oct 10 15:22:28 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 16:22:28 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.4.2.20051009073434.032ebda0@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <200510080825.j988PgPn047793@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> <6.2.5.4.2.20051009073434.032ebda0@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <434ACD84.4030904@mdrconsult.com> John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Or you can use an external USB to floppy interface enclosure. A few on > the list have commented on their use and types. In theory, you could > have many, many drives this way. I have several of these and have used several other brands and types and they all have one thing in common. They support 3.5" 1.44MB floppy disks *only*. I've taken 2 apart to see if I could at least substitute a 720K-capable drive, and they're "integrated". No substitution possible. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 10 15:25:54 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051010130003.U64864@shell.lmi.net> > On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Think of Emmanuel Goldberg's "Rapid Selector", > > and Vannevar Bush's Memex copy of it. > > (movie film microfilm, with binary optical filing data alongside) > On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Thanks for the extremely obscure but highly informative reference to > Emmanuel Goldberg! I didn't know about this. > > http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/~buckland/statistical.html OBSCURE??? ^^^^^^^^ Michael Buckland was my PhD advisor. Very interesting chap. try also: http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/~buckland/goldbush.html I did some trivial research for Buckalnd, including checking my 50 to 70 year old photography books to confirm that Bush's gate-less projector could not have been produced with available materials at the time: proof-of-concept, but NOT functional. (Calculate what speed the flash tube would have to have been to provide an unblurred image of microfilm moving past.) Goldberg was chief engineer at Zeiss. But, because he was Jewish, during WW2, Zeiss systematically deleted all reference to his existence. In the body (not online) of: http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/research/projects/oasis/trade.html I am given credit as the father of "perverse" retrieval, for pointing out that use of "best possible" retrieval as a constraint for results also calls for identifying "worst possible" as the opposite boundary. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Oct 10 15:29:20 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:29:20 Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board Computers In-Reply-To: <200510101935.j9AJZ6Ct035607@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510101913.OAA25406@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051010152920.432fcd36@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Speaking of SBCs. Does anyone know anything about an Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? It's NOT Multibus. Joe At 02:25 PM 10/10/05 -0500, you wrote: >A while back I mentioned a couple of strange systems that had turned up in >surplus here at UT Arlington, Rockwell 8315s. No luck on Google and no >comments from the list, so I opened one up. It turned out to be an AIM 65/40 >system. Pictures and brief notes here: > >http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/WhatsNew.asp > >I also have donated a single board computer from Western Data Systems called >"The Data Handler". I bought it new back in the late '70s when I lived in >Cupertino. I think their office was over in Santa Clara. There are pictures >of it on this same page. > >Gil > > From news at computercollector.com Mon Oct 10 15:13:12 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 16:13:12 -0400 Subject: Resources for archiving Message-ID: <000701c5cdd7$0bfe6010$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> ...Thought this might be of interest to some people: http://www.archivists.org/prof-education/seasonal_schedule.asp ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 10 15:45:02 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <434A9699.9060302@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <434A9699.9060302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051010134352.P64864@shell.lmi.net> > >>I wonder how well floppies would survive if they were vacuum-packed and > >>stored in a dark cool place. IOW, are there any chemical reactions that > >>contribute to the degradation of the medium other than those created by > >>heat and air and environmental contaminants. > >An interesting proposition. Does plastic still out-gas even if it's > >vacuum-packed? On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, woodelf wrote: > I would suspect yes ... I think too the computer could be kept at just > above zero > in a dark place in a light vacuum too. How much would it cost to move Sellam's collection to the dark side of the moon? From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Oct 10 15:47:03 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 16:47:03 -0400 Subject: Dying PCjr drive; options? In-Reply-To: <200510100630.j9A6U2Og086296@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200510102046.j9AKkuWZ022918@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: "Yes, doing the 'radial alignment' is not that hard. I've never had any success with the 'digital alignment disks', I prefer a 'catseye disk' and an oscilloscope conencted to the differential outputs of the read amplifier." The digital alignment disks are intended for checking alignment to see if it needs to be done. It's not practical to use them for actually doing the alignment. It's not impossible, absolutely, but it's not a good way to go about it, nor was it really the intent of the digital disks. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 10 15:47:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: <000401c5cdbe$6d14fee0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > There's a listing on eBay for ASCII art TTY printouts (#8707360741) > and it raised an interesting question. I remember as a kid going to my > father's office (he worked for New York Telephone in New York City) at > Christmas and they had various computer systems that they let the kids play > on. One of them (I don't remember which) had a program to print calendars. > In the eBay listing, there's a Snoopy Red Barron calendar, which I > distinctly remember printing out. > > What program would have made this calendar and is one still > available, somewhere, that I could run on Windows or through something like > SIMH? All(?) these and many(!) more can be had for the price of a free download: http://www.siconic.com/crap/ascii.tar You'll need to untar it, then each file is compressed, so a knowledge of Unix tools is a requirement. But once you have that figured out, you can print out ASCII art to your typographically rendered heart's delight. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 10 15:48:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Electronics recycling, was HP 1000/2000 cache on ePay In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051010133904.3c57d8f4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Joe R. wrote: > At 02:08 PM 10/9/05 -0700, you wrote: > >On 10/9/2005 at 1:03 PM Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > >>Whatever the case, we have enough problems to solve domestically that we > >>shouldn't concern ourselves with what's going on 8,000 miles away. > > If only it would stay 8,000 miles away! EVERY lake here in Florida is > polluted with mercury. Even ones that have no industry or settlements > around them. They finally traced the source to China! It seems that their > open burning has dumped so much mercury in the atmosphere that enough of it > is settling in the lakes here to be a serious health concern. Sounds like a Global Warming-esque theory to me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 10 15:49:24 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510101115250948.006EC47A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What I was wondering about was if a number of diskettes were packed in a > vacuum-sealed container and placed in an underground "time capsule" or a > building's cornerstone, if they'd survive 100 or so years... Right, and my question still is, would the MEDIA stop out-gassing if it was vacuum-packed? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Oct 10 15:53:33 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:53:33 -0500 Subject: Dying PCjr drive; options? In-Reply-To: <20051010111719.UQYB5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20051010111719.UQYB5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <434AD4CD.2070806@oldskool.org> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>Sadly, the drive is so far off that I can't get the thing to boot at all to run >>ImageDisk :-( But thanks for the instructions; I will clip'n'save them. > > Actually, it never occured to me that anyone would try to do this by booting > from the drive. I was thinking that you would pull the drive and drop it onto > a working system. Excuse me as I remove my foot from my mouth. I've been working with the old hardware for so long it never occured to me to remove it and work with it on another machine! What a dufus am I... > One thing I have on my bench which is very handy, is the PC has modified drive > cable which brings drive 'B' out to a 37-pin 'D' connector on the back, and > a plug-in cable to allow me to easily connect external drives. I use this both > for testing drives, and for imaging from/to 5.25" and 8" drives. Ironically, I have a 5150 with the full-length FDC with a very long port on it (something like 40-pin female?) that I assume I could connect drives to... but I have no idea what the pinout is or where to obtain a cable. I am not the soldering type (watch me duck as the flying tomatoes come from the peanut gallery) > I have details/photos on how to make the cables and adapters posted to my site. > Look at "Disks/Software images" near the bottom, and then "notes on connecting > an 8" drive. Will do, thank you. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Oct 10 16:00:30 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:00:30 -0700 Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board Computers In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051010152920.432fcd36@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200510101913.OAA25406@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3.0.6.16.20051010152920.432fcd36@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <434AD66E.6090003@msm.umr.edu> Joe R. wrote: >Speaking of SBCs. Does anyone know anything about an Intel 80C186/80C188 >Evaluation Board? It's NOT Multibus. > > Joe > > >At 02:25 PM 10/10/05 -0500, you wrote: > > >>A while back >> intel still produces sample boards for all processors to send out. If you get one of the older eval boards, it probably has some support for expansion, but more importantly, it would have connections (or should have) to bring out run control and processor bus to be hooked to trace devices. This can require an interposer for a lot of systems, and is nice if you want to play with a processor and see what it does w/o having to do such a thing. A lot of these used to be on the intel site, but are no longer there. jim From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 10 16:10:47 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:10:47 -0700 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510101410470607.010F50B5@10.0.0.252> On 10/10/2005 at 1:49 PM Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Right, and my question still is, would the MEDIA stop out-gassing if it >was vacuum-packed? I wonder if it'd prbably be the reverse, that the vacuum would encourage "boiling off" or volatile compounds. Maybe media should be packed under high-pressure dry nitrogen or argon. Cheers, Chuck From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Oct 10 16:11:08 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:11:08 -0700 Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: References: <000401c5cdbe$6d14fee0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: At 1:25 PM -0400 10/10/05, Mike Loewen wrote: >On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >>In the eBay listing, there's a Snoopy Red Barron calendar, which I >>distinctly remember printing out. >> >> What program would have made this calendar and is one still >>available, somewhere, that I could run on Windows or through something like >>SIMH? > > I used to have a FORTRAN program to make Snoopy calendars on a >360. I'll have to dig around and see if I still have the listing. >This one had a picture of Snoopy on top of his doghouse. I still have a the card deck I used to create this at the time. I haven't read the cards (don't have a card reader) but you can see the deck: It is, obviously, the deck labeled "Hang on Snoopy 1974". John From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Oct 10 17:12:15 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:12:15 Subject: FA: DEC MINC disks, Optical PT reader, HP 2100 manual Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051010171215.195ff76c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> . I'll be posting more neat stuff tomorrow. Joe From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 10 14:02:26 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors In-Reply-To: <4337.192.168.0.5.1128900282.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051010190226.75419.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> HERE HERE! And I would imagine there must have been a game or two that people would enjoy again playing on the thing. Hmmm maybe Starflight would run on one. More then could be said for my Tandy 2000 :( --- Witchy wrote: > > On Sun, October 9, 2005 5:08 pm, Joe R. said: > > > > > other that you could name and none of them had a > fraction of troubles that > > I constantly had. I was a poor college student and > could afford anything > > else so I stuck with (or got stuck with!) a Sanyo > for three years and I > > used it A LOT. I DESPISE the things! > > That's what makes them collectable, no? :) > > -- > adrian/witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home > computer collection? > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 10 14:25:37 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051009160855.445727e8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20051010192537.77044.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> > The Sanyo ran at 3.58MHz (8088) > so that they could use > CHEAP color burst crsytals for the oscillator. Almost all the pc's used a crystal that was some multiple of color burst frequency. Did the Sanyo actually use a 3.58mhz crystal? The PC had a crystal that was 4x that, and divided it by 3 to get 4.77mhz. > Sanyos also used part of > the main memory for the video memory instead of > having video memory at a > fixed address ala the IBM PC so a LOT of the MS DOS > software would not run > on it. The PCjr's video memory was physically located low in ram, yet appeared to be in the b-block (through the use of a "video gate array"). Is this what the Sanyo did? Otherwise I don't understand what is meant by "used part of main memory". All in all it sounds like a groovy machine ;). I'd love to get my hands on one. And I already have 2 6300's, and 1 Xerox something, which were clones of one another (both made by Olivetti). __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 10 14:57:50 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: <20051009094614.779fbf3e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051010195750.82238.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> > I wonder if there would be enough interest and/or > resources to produce a > new batch of the boards for it? At one company I worked for years ago, we made small circuit boards for some thingamajig. If the artwork was available (and MM is still around, I doubt they refrain from releasing it provided they still had it) I'd be inclined to give it a crack my self, save for the fact that it has 7 layers. The Radio Electronics robot board which appeared in about '88 would be an easier project imo. Only 2 layers, and they put the artwork right in the magazine. I imagine I'm going to attempt it this winter. I e-mailed the company who made the prototype and distributed it, and they e-mailed me the FORTH interpreter rom image, but unfortunately that's all they had. IIRC there was 3, BIOS, BASIC, and FORTH. > It boots > using the serial console as I haven't yet tried it > with a video card. I > might never 'bring it to that point' as that just > transforms it into a > kinda-PC/XT system. For what it's worth, it's exactly what I'd do if I had one ;). I wouldn't be limited to that. I remember he stated in the article that "in theory" a video card should work. I recommend a PGA card - make that cards - if you happen to have one (them). I don't, but I have something similar, a dual card w/an onboard 80186 made by Vermont Microsystems. Anyone got the drivers for it? > I booted CP/M-86 on it...the disk... .A86 source >code...CP/M on the three diskette set...third party >apps...69 diskettes...some of the disks...'BIOS source >code'...low level system things... Dude, pleeease make those disks into images before catastrophe befalls them :( __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 10 16:30:32 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dying PCjr drive; options? In-Reply-To: <434AD4CD.2070806@oldskool.org> References: <20051010111719.UQYB5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <434AD4CD.2070806@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051010142720.R64864@shell.lmi.net> > Dave Dunfield wrote: > > One thing I have on my bench which is very handy, is the PC has modified drive > > cable which brings drive 'B' out to a 37-pin 'D' connector on the back, and > > a plug-in cable to allow me to easily connect external drives. I use this both > > for testing drives, and for imaging from/to 5.25" and 8" drives. On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Ironically, I have a 5150 with the full-length FDC with a very long port on it > (something like 40-pin female?) that I assume I could connect drives to... but The FDC of the 5151 was a "2/3 length" card. DC37. to connect drives to. > I have no idea what the pinout is or where to obtain a cable. > > I have details/photos on how to make the cables and adapters posted to my site. > > Look at "Disks/Software images" near the bottom, and then "notes on connecting > > an 8" drive. > Will do, thank you. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 10 16:45:06 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:45:06 -0400 Subject: Fwd: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors Message-ID: <0IO500L1TZ1XCW41@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Fwd: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors > From: Chris M > Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:25:37 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >> The Sanyo ran at 3.58MHz (8088) >> so that they could use >> CHEAP color burst crsytals for the oscillator. > > Almost all the pc's used a crystal that was some >multiple of color burst frequency. Did the Sanyo >actually use a 3.58mhz crystal? The PC had a crystal >that was 4x that, and divided it by 3 to get 4.77mhz. the IBM PC used the 8284A clock generator to pump the 8088 and that chip generates the 30% duty cycle required by dividing a higher frequency (14.31818mhz) to 4.77mhz. That higher frequency was high enough for Video clock generation as well. The IBM PC also another osc for the baud rate clocks and the Video had it's own clock. Many other machines used 3.58 (3.57545mhz) as it was easy to find and cheap, almost 4mhz and related to US video color burst. However the primary reason it was cheap crystal. In some cases the cpu was also limited to 4mhz or lower and that factored into the clock used. Allison From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Oct 10 16:44:05 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board Computers Message-ID: <200510102144.OAA12096@clulw009.amd.com> Hi These usually are not very complicated. I have one of these from AMD. You might hunt around by using the search engine on the Intel site. I found quite a bit of information for mine by doing that with the AMD site. Mine has some flash and RAM with a few I/O's. I've put a simple Forth on mine that was adapted from fpc ( A Forth for the PC ). The only tricky thing about these is the resetting of the special registers. These you can understand by looking at the data books for the C186/C188 version you have. These registers are slightly differnt for each letter version so make sure you are looking at the same one. The AMD had a special monitor on board to upgrade the flash. I'd suspect that the Intel board might be the same. If you should fiddle with the flash, make sure and save a copy. I found some information on an upgrade for the monitor but it required having the previous monitor loaded. Mine was an even earlier version. I did some fiddle faddle by loading the monitor at another location, as an application program and then using that to upgrade to the current version. It was tricky but it did work :) It now still has the monitor and the Forth as one of the applications. Dwight >From: "jim stephens" > >Joe R. wrote: > >>Speaking of SBCs. Does anyone know anything about an Intel 80C186/80C188 >>Evaluation Board? It's NOT Multibus. >> >> Joe >> >> >>At 02:25 PM 10/10/05 -0500, you wrote: >> >> >>>A while back >>> >intel still produces sample boards for all processors to send out. If >you get one of >the older eval boards, it probably has some support for expansion, but >more importantly, >it would have connections (or should have) to bring out run control and >processor bus to >be hooked to trace devices. This can require an interposer for a lot of >systems, and >is nice if you want to play with a processor and see what it does w/o >having to do such >a thing. > >A lot of these used to be on the intel site, but are no longer there. >jim > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 17:38:36 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:38:36 -0700 Subject: E&L Instruments Fox 1 Z80 Trainer chip questions In-Reply-To: <000301c5cdc6$9bd4cb40$6401a8c0@P43200> References: <434A9699.9060302@jetnet.ab.ca> <000301c5cdc6$9bd4cb40$6401a8c0@P43200> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90510101538n325a52fcga2f5d6a1ff97a6b9@mail.gmail.com> On 10/10/05, ROBO5.8 wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I recently obtained a used E&L Instruments MT-80Z microprocessor trainer. > My goal is to teach my kids a little about microprocessors. > > The trainer has 3 empty IC sockets U1-40 pin, U10-40 pin and U-11-28 pin. > The parts are missing on the board that contains the keyboard and 7 segment > displays. Neither of which work, so I suspect those empty sockets require a > chip or two for operations. > > The parts are probably Zilog or Intel PIO's and a CTC (Counter Clock Timer). Good guess. U10 is an optional PIO. U11 is an optional CTC. U1 is where the Z80 goes in the MPF-1. On the MT-80Z the Z80 is moved to the second PCB and U1 is empty on the original PCB. Schematics for the original MPF-1 board can be found here: http://themotionstore.com/leeedavison/z80/mpf1/index.html I have never found an online schematic or manual for the MT-80Z. The monitor EPROM in the MT-80Z I have is slightly different than the monitor EPROM in the MPF-1, but I think the changes are very minor. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 10 17:40:09 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 23:40:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fwd: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors In-Reply-To: <20051010190226.75419.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4337.192.168.0.5.1128900282.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <20051010190226.75419.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2417.192.168.0.5.1128984009.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Mon, October 10, 2005 8:02 pm, Chris M said: > HERE HERE! And I would imagine there must have been a > game or two that people would enjoy again playing on > the thing. Hmmm maybe Starflight would run on one. > More then could be said for my Tandy 2000 :( It'd be nice to find some, I've only got apps and OS disks for mine.... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 10 18:21:11 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:21:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: E&L Instruments Fox 1 Z80 Trainer chip questions Message-ID: <20051010232111.84493.qmail@web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Schematics for the original MPF-1 board can be found here: > http://themotionstore.com/leeedavison/z80/mpf1/index.html Hmmmm, that looks familiar. 8^)= > The monitor EPROM in the MT-80Z I have is slightly different > than the monitor EPROM in the MPF-1, but I think the changes > are very minor. How about a dump of it for the site? Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 10 18:18:41 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:18:41 +0100 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <20051010134352.P64864@shell.lmi.net> References: <434A9699.9060302@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051010134352.P64864@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <434AF6D1.8050605@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >>I would suspect yes ... I think too the computer could be kept at just >>above zero >>in a dark place in a light vacuum too. > > > How much would it cost to move Sellam's collection > to the dark side of the moon? Less than it would cost to catalogue it all, I expect ;) From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Oct 10 14:32:16 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 19:32:16 +0000 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <434ACD84.4030904@mdrconsult.com> References: <6.2.5.4.2.20051009073434.032ebda0@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <20051010232452.WOXI2981.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > They support 3.5" 1.44MB floppy disks *only*. I've taken 2 apart to > see if I could at least substitute a 720K-capable drive, and they're > "integrated". No substitution possible. > > > Doc Same here, I picked up a cheap USB "pinhole" style cam with 2 SMD white LEDs in tiny case for laptop use, size of a thumb. From "The Source aka Rat Shock". Popped it open and found cam sensor module is all one with USB built in, just one chip! Thought some used to have two chip design that took a NTSC output from cam IC to a video to USB converter IC. Ugh. Cheers, Wizard From charlesmorris at direcway.com Mon Oct 10 18:37:52 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 18:37:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/A bus levels? Message-ID: I am trying to figure out the voltages on my PDP-8/A (Omnibus) logic lines. DEC's documentation, as usual, is confusing at best on this (and other) subjects, and sometimes apparently self-contradictory... DEC used suffixes -L and -H to mean active-low and -high respectively (that is, a logical assertion). They also say when interfacing to the Omnibus that standard TTL levels are used. But elsewhere in the manual it says Logic 1 levels are near 0 volts and logic 0 is near 5 volts! So does this statement apply only to the bus signals that are already active-low? Am I correct or not in interpreting, for example, an address line named "MA 11 L" to be a logic 1/true/asserted when 0-0.8 volts and logic 0/false when 2.0+ volts (TTL levels)? thanks for any assistance. -Charles From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 10 10:55:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 16:55:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: TEC FD-50x drives - known issues? In-Reply-To: <05100917215300.09156@bell> from "joseph c lang" at Oct 9, 5 05:21:53 pm Message-ID: > Oh yeah..that's a common problem caused by the small inductors > in the read amplifier going open. too much stress on the leads. > Add a couple of years and bingo no read. I've never had _that_ problem, but doubtless I will sometime... One thing I forgot to mention last night is that another very common read circuit uses the MC3470 chip. If you have one of those in the drive, it's certain to be the read chain. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 10 10:58:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 16:58:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unix on BBC micro with 16032 coprocessor In-Reply-To: <4349B8A3.6020400@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 10, 5 01:41:07 am Message-ID: > I don't *think* it ever saw the light of day. As others have mentioned, > it was planned for the ABC 2xx / Cambridge Workstation machines, but I > don't think it was anything more than vapourware. Silly random thought. IIRC, there's an empty 40 pin DIL socket on the ACW coprocessor board, and I think it's on the 32016 sencond processor board too (I must come and collect that from you). Wasn't that for an MMU chip? If so, it may have been needed for unix/xenix, but not PANOS (I've never seen a 32016 board with it fitted). > Occasionally I see comments along the lines of most people ditching > PANOS on the ACW in favour of Xenix - but I'm yet to find any evidence Considering how few ACWs wer made, I find that unlikely. I've never seen a 32016 second processor or an ACW running anything but PANOS. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 10 11:10:39 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:10:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dying PCjr drive; options? In-Reply-To: <4349C1D2.3020202@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Oct 9, 5 08:20:18 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > This sounds (!) like it's not detecting track 0 correctly, it's just > > banging the head into the end stop. > > > > My first thought is to clean the track 0 sensor (has it got dust in the > > gap), then sit down with the drive and test gear and debug the circuitry. > > I'm starting from ground zero. Where *is* the track 0 sensor? (a hard thing > to describe without pictures, I know... sorry) A couple of days ago I got a comment that I was starting at too basic a level :-). Oh well... The track 0 sensor detects when the head assemnby is at cylinder 0 -- the outermost cylinder. Typically it consists of a slotted optoswitch mounted on the drive chassis and an opaque 'flag' on the head carriage which interrupts the light beam in the slotted optoswitch when the head is at cylinder 0. A slotted optoswtich is typically a black plastic device with a slot in it. I would think you could find a picture of one on the web somewhere -- try the RS components (not Radio Shack!) or Farnell catalogues. If this drive is the one I think it is, it was called the 'Slimline Diskette Srive' by IBM. I have a schematic (although not a mechanical layout) in front of me. The track 0 sensor seems to have 4 wires which go to pins A3, A4, B3, B4 of connector J3. Also on this connector are the in-use LED, the spindle motor and its tachogenerator, and the head stepper motor. You should be able to find it by tracing wires. As for the circuitry : A slotted optoswitch consists of an infra-red LED shining at a phototransistor across the slot. Put something (that 'flag' I mentioned) in the slot, and the light can't reach the phototransistor. In this case, the LED is connected between A3 (connected to +5V via a 150 Ohm resistor R61) and B4 (ground). The phototransistor between B3 (ground) and A4 (connected to +5V via a 47k resisotr R43). The last is the output from the sensor, of course. It also goes to TP8 and to the input of U16d ('14). The output of that is inverted by U14c ('00, inputs connected together), then NANDed with a couple of signals from the stepper motor driver circuit by U7c ('10). THat's inverted again by U16a ('14), then fet to one input of U11b ('38) which drives the track00 pin on the interface connector (the other input to this gate comes from the drive-selected signal). What I would do next is power up the drive as usual, and with the head stepped away from track 0, look at the output of U14c -- that is pin 8 of U14 -- with a logic probe. It should be low, and should go high if you put something opeaque (to IR) in the slot of the sensor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 10 11:47:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:47:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dying PCjr drive; options? In-Reply-To: <434AD4CD.2070806@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Oct 10, 5 03:53:33 pm Message-ID: > Ironically, I have a 5150 with the full-length FDC with a very long port on it > (something like 40-pin female?) that I assume I could connect drives to... but It's a DC37 socket, 37 pins. > I have no idea what the pinout is or where to obtain a cable. I am not the > soldering type (watch me duck as the flying tomatoes come from the peanut gallery) And you can actually make the cable without soldering!. The external cable is like the intneral drive cable in that it has the 'IBM twist' but with a DC37 plug on the controller end, not a card edge connector (or header socket for the AT floppy drive cable). If you only want to link up one external drive, then what you need is : A 34 pin IDC connector to fit the signal connector on the drive. In your case, an IDC 34 pin card edge connector. A length of 34 way IDC ribbon cable. An IDC DC37 plug. IDC == Insulation Displacement Connector. This sort of connector can be crimped onto the cable without stripping or separating the individual wires, and without soldering. Fit the edge connector onto one end of the cable, so that the marked edge of the cable corresponds with pin 1. That is, when the connector is plugged into the drive, the marked edge of the cable is at the pin 1 end of the drive edge connector. Slot the cable into the connector, make sure it lines up with the 'tines' and is at right angles to the connector, and then carefully squeeze the connector together in a bench vice. Fit the DC37 plug on the other end of the cable. At this end, the marked edge of the cable shoubd be towards the pin 1 end of the connector -- that is the top edge when the connector is plugged into the IBM PC/Xt controller. And the top 3 pins are not connected -- that is the cable should align with the _bottom_ 34 tines in the plug. Again, make sure it's perpendicular, and crimp it in the vice. That's it. As regards software, I'd keep the mainboard switches set to say you have 2 drives -- the 2 intenral drives -- installed, and use DRIVER.SYS for the external ones. That way, your hard disk remains as C:, etc. I do wonder how you're going to maintain classic computers if you don't like soldering though. I claim to be more of a hardware type, and not a programmer. By that I mean that I couldn't write an OS or a compiler or... from scratch. But I know enough about programming to be able to write little data conversion programs, or to understand enough machine code to know what the bytes on my logic analyser screen mean, or... In the same way, while you might not want to design a processor or even dive into a PDP11/45 CPU (with around 1000 ICs...), I do feel that you probably should learn how to make cables, enough digital electronics to be able to trace through simple logic circuits, and so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 10 11:23:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:23:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dying PCjr drive; options? In-Reply-To: <20051010111719.UQYB5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Oct 10, 5 07:17:20 am Message-ID: > One thing I have on my bench which is very handy, is the PC has modified drive > cable which brings drive 'B' out to a 37-pin 'D' connector on the back, and > a plug-in cable to allow me to easily connect external drives. I use this both > for testing drives, and for imaging from/to 5.25" and 8" drives. I hve a commercial drive tester that uses the same sort of idea. There are extension cables that you connect to the Drive B signal connector and power connecotr, and route them outside the PC to the drive under test. And a little box containing a microcontroller, ADC, and a frw other bits that you connect to the PC's serial port (it takes its power from there). And some MS-DOS software to control the whole thing. You run the software and select the type of drive you're working on (it has a large datahase of these, but alas no 3" ones, I think it does cover 8", and certainly covers 5.25" and 3.5", including the old Sony 600rpm ones, and the PS/2 ones, for which you need cable adapters which I don't bave). The software then displays a picture of the drive PCB (drawn with the IBM line-drawing characters, even I can use this on an MDA display...) which shows where to connect the clip leads from the ADC box. I can't remember what they all are, but 2 of them go to the differential amplifier output testpoints in the read circuit, one goes to the track0 sensor, one to the index sensor, and so on. Yo uput an alignment disk -- a real analogue catseye disk -- in the drive under test. It'll do things like move the head to the alignment track, then use the ADC box to work out (from the signals on the read amplifier outputs) how far the head is out of alignment. You can essentially do a 'propper' drive alignment without a 'scope. I rarely use it, though. I have a normal drive exerciser and a 'scope, and find those easier to fit on the bench than a PC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 10 11:53:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:53:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fwd: questions about Sanyo MBC 55x collectors In-Reply-To: <0IO500L1TZ1XCW41@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Oct 10, 5 05:45:06 pm Message-ID: > > Almost all the pc's used a crystal that was some > >multiple of color burst frequency. Did the Sanyo > >actually use a 3.58mhz crystal? The PC had a crystal > >that was 4x that, and divided it by 3 to get 4.77mhz. > > the IBM PC used the 8284A clock generator to pump the > 8088 and that chip generates the 30% duty cycle required > by dividing a higher frequency (14.31818mhz) to 4.77mhz. And if you divide that 14.3...MHz by 4, you get something close to 3.58MHz -- the NTSC colourburst frequency. > That higher frequency was high enough for Video clock > generation as well. > > The IBM PC also another osc for the baud rate clocks > and the Video had it's own clock. The MDA card has its own clock oscillator (one of those 4-pin oscillator cans), the IBM CGA card does not. It uses the 14.3xx MHz motherboard clock for the video timing chain and the NTSC encoder. In fact the PC/AT motherboard has a 14.3MHz clock circuit on it, fed to the expansion slots for those cards, like the CGA card, that require it. IIRC, there's a trimmer capacitor tied to that crystal (on the PC, XT, AT boards) that you can tweak to get the colourburst frequency right so that an NTSC monitor or TV will display in colour. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 10 11:28:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:28:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: E&L Instruments Fox 1 Z80 Trainer chip questions In-Reply-To: <000301c5cdc6$9bd4cb40$6401a8c0@P43200> from "ROBO5.8" at Oct 10, 5 02:15:34 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Folks, > > I recently obtained a used E&L Instruments MT-80Z microprocessor trainer. > My goal is to teach my kids a little about microprocessors. > > The trainer has 3 empty IC sockets U1-40 pin, U10-40 pin and U-11-28 pin. > The parts are missing on the board that contains the keyboard and 7 segment > displays. Neither of which work, so I suspect those empty sockets require a > chip or two for operations. > > The parts are probably Zilog or Intel PIO's and a CTC (Counter Clock Timer). > > Before I experiment I thought I'd run it up the flag pole and ask if anyone > can identify what goes in the sockets. My memory seems to say that the Zilog parts at least had pretty strange pinouts, even for things like power connections. You should be able to trace enough of the pins (power, clock, data bus would be a start) to see if the Z80 PIO and CTC could possibly be the right parts. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 10 11:31:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:31:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 10, 5 02:20:54 pm Message-ID: > > > An interesting proposition. Does plastic still out-gas even if it's > > vacuum-packed? > > Probably faster. I would think a helium environment would be better, but I > am no chemist. I would tend to agree. The lower the external pressure (e.g. by vacuum packing), the more likely things are to outgas. The problem with helium is that the atom is so small that it will difuse though just about anything. This is a problem with some HeNe laser tubes which lose their helium over time. Perhaps one of the heavier intert gases would be suitable for packing plastics, but I am not sure it would do that much good. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 10 12:04:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 18:04:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8/A bus levels? In-Reply-To: from "Charles" at Oct 10, 5 06:37:52 pm Message-ID: > > I am trying to figure out the voltages on my PDP-8/A (Omnibus) > logic lines. DEC's documentation, as usual, is confusing at best > on this (and other) subjects, and sometimes apparently > self-contradictory... > > DEC used suffixes -L and -H to mean active-low and -high > respectively (that is, a logical assertion). They also say when > interfacing to the Omnibus that standard TTL levels are used. But > elsewhere in the manual it says Logic 1 levels are near 0 volts > and logic 0 is near 5 volts! So does this statement apply only to > the bus signals that are already active-low? They've tried to over-explain it, and confused everybody :-) > > Am I correct or not in interpreting, for example, an address line > named "MA 11 L" to be a logic 1/true/asserted when 0-0.8 volts and > logic 0/false when 2.0+ volts (TTL levels)? Yes. >From my expeirience with Omnibus (and Unibus for that matter), yes. An address (or data) line is a logical 1 bit when it's a TTL low. That is, for location 0 in memory, all the address lines are TTL high. -tony From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Oct 10 15:13:03 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 20:13:03 +0000 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: References: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 10, 5 02:20:54 pm Message-ID: <20051011000540.IFHC25800.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Reply-to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > > > An interesting proposition. Does plastic still out-gas even if it's > > > vacuum-packed? > > > > Probably faster. I would think a helium environment would be better, but I > > am no chemist. > > I would tend to agree. The lower the external pressure (e.g. by vacuum > packing), the more likely things are to outgas. > > The problem with helium is that the atom is so small that it will difuse > though just about anything. This is a problem with some HeNe laser tubes > which lose their helium over time. Perhaps one of the heavier intert > gases would be suitable for packing plastics, but I am not sure it would > do that much good. > > -tony Gas of choice and very cheap is nitrogen gas. Large enough molecules not to "diffuse through" and neutral. In fact, air we beathe is 80% nitrogen, 20% oxygen, traces of other noble gases. This is another reason for a need to have EGR to cut down on NOX emissions in most engines that could run hot enough to recombine nitrogen with others into NOX which is a pollution. EGR lowers the fire chambers temps enough to cut down on NOX lot. Cheers, Wizard From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 10 19:10:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <20051010134352.P64864@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > How much would it cost to move Sellam's collection to the dark side of > the moon? Please let me know if you figure it out. I've been trying to find a way off this stupid planet for a while now. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 10 21:23:55 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 19:23:55 -0700 Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board Computers In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051010152920.432fcd36@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200510101913.OAA25406@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3.0.6.16.20051010152920.432fcd36@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200510101923550992.022DFCD0@10.0.0.252> On 10/10/2005 at 3:29 PM Joe R. wrote: >Speaking of SBCs. Does anyone know anything about an Intel 80C186/80C188 >Evaluation Board? Can't help with the evaluation board, but the mention of the 80186 reminds me of a system I worked on (Durango Poppy) using one (an added 80286 was an option if you wanted to run Unix). It's a great chip for its time with DMA done the right way and lots of I/O pins. Unfortunately, any programs that play with PC hardware are doomed to failure. I've got a little FAX receiver box that was designed to fit between a printer and a PC and would either print FAXen as received or store them on a DOS-formatted 1.44MB floppy drive that was part of the unit. It uses an 80C188 and I recall looking at the 27C256 BIOS and noting that it implemented many of the PC BIOS calls, particularly those for diskette I/O. It has 256K of RAM. The thing isn't much bigger than a floppy drive and is powered by a wall wart. It'd make a neat little CP/M-86 system if I ever got around to programming it. But this brings up a question--how many early non-PC PC's are there wandering around? IOW, things that have the ability to run a full operating system, but aren't PC's per se. My DSL model is certainly one--runs Linux (just telnet to it and you get a login). Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 10 21:55:14 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 03:55:14 +0100 Subject: Unix on BBC micro with 16032 coprocessor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434B2992.2070008@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>I don't *think* it ever saw the light of day. As others have mentioned, >>it was planned for the ABC 2xx / Cambridge Workstation machines, but I >>don't think it was anything more than vapourware. > > > Silly random thought. IIRC, there's an empty 40 pin DIL socket on the ACW > coprocessor board, and I think it's on the 32016 sencond processor board > too (I must come and collect that from you). Wasn't that for an MMU chip? Yep, you're right (about there being empty sockets on both versions of the board). I suppose it's logical it'd be an MMU chip given that there's no other connectors to the board (e.g. it's not for an optional serial chip or whatever). I don't know offhand the number of pins on the MMU support chip for the 32016, but I'm guessing 40 pins as that's what I remember most of the larger chips in the WCW MG-1 having :) > If so, it may have been needed for unix/xenix, but not PANOS (I've never > seen a 32016 board with it fitted). No, I haven't either. And interesting speculation as it perhaps implies that Acorn were thinking of a UNIX workstation very early on (and may also accout for the rumours about Xenix being available; I bet if Acorn were thinking along those lines it ended up in various pre-launch magazine articles) >>Occasionally I see comments along the lines of most people ditching >>PANOS on the ACW in favour of Xenix - but I'm yet to find any evidence > > > Considering how few ACWs wer made, I find that unlikely. I've never seen > a 32016 second processor or an ACW running anything but PANOS. No, nor me. Apart from those which are broken and don't run anything :) cheers Jules From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Oct 10 23:25:44 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 23:25:44 -0500 Subject: UNIX on BBC micro with 16032 coprocessor Message-ID: <30f624c3e7cc4c86a68cb04c247cb083@valleyimplants.com> Not sure about BBC XENIX, but SCO XENIX 386 release 2.3.4 (1991) requires 1 MB RAM (20MB disk space, though) From prbotha at hotmail.com Mon Oct 10 23:28:32 2005 From: prbotha at hotmail.com (Pieter Botha) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 04:28:32 +0000 Subject: Original PDP-8 spares In-Reply-To: <200510080033.j980XP0v040856@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Apologies, I've been off-the-air for a couple of days. Judging by the replies I got, there does seem to be some interest in the straight-8 spares I'd like to sell. I guess the first step would be for me to catalogue everything and publish the list here. Maybe some kind soul can then suggest a sensible way to bunch the stuff together. There are several options I can think of: The whole lot in one go, sets of a variety of cards, sets of the same cards together, one card at a time (shudder) By the way, I also have two metal strips with a lot of slide switches on them, ISTR they were at the bottom of the frame, and by the looks of them they could have something to do with tweaking voltages ? I might be persuaded to get rid of the front panel as well. There is a little bit of damage to the paint at the back of the glass, but as near as I can tell the bulbs and certainly the switches are still eminently usable. I'll go make a list and get back to the list ;^) Pieter Botha ============================ _________________________________________________________________ We've overhauled MSN Search Toolbar - FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.co.za?DI=1054&XAPID=2083 From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Oct 10 23:33:04 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 23:33:04 -0500 Subject: Electronics recycling (Now OT) Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 Sellam wrote: On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: On 10/9/2005 at 1:03 PM Vintage Computer Festival wrote: Whatever the case, we have enough problems to solve domestically that we shouldn't concern ourselves with what's going on 8,000 miles away. ...and neither should we export our problems to far-flung lands. :) If they didn't want it, they wouldn't be taking it in at the rate of thousands of tons per day ;) and creating toxic dust that blows back to us . . . In the US, companies are liable for cleanup expenses if their contractors dispose of hazardous waste improperly. Do we not have an ethical obligation to ensure that our potentially toxic waste does not harm others, even if they are 8,000 miles away? I may not be able to control what others do, but I have an ethical obligation to not become complicit in evil/wrongdoing. From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Tue Oct 11 00:49:05 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 07:49:05 +0200 Subject: Ringout on Overland Data TX-8/TX-16 cable? References: <200510090324.j993OFn4067506@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051008221704.A5146@kallisti.com> Message-ID: <001401c5ce27$7dd86ff0$2101a8c0@finans> Fra: "Allan Hessenflow" Til: Emne: Re: Ringout on Overland Data TX-8/TX-16 cable? > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Does anyone have the wiring details for the Pertec-to-Overland Data > > TX-8 or TX-16 cable used on OD's non-SCSI 9-track equipment? It's > > got a D-sub 62-pin male connector on one end and two 50 conductor female > > edge connectors on the other labeled P1 and P2. > > I rung one out, here is my documentation: > IS this data for the TX8/TXi16 ? Your answer is not completely clear in this respect (anyway, the way I read it= Thanks Nico From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Oct 11 01:47:49 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 06:47:49 +0000 Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board Computers In-Reply-To: <200510101923550992.022DFCD0@10.0.0.252> References: <200510101913.OAA25406@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3.0.6.16.20051010152920.432fcd36@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200510101923550992.022DFCD0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <434B6015.9050208@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > But this brings up a question--how many early non-PC PC's are there wandering around? IOW, things that have the ability to run a full operating system, but aren't PC's per se. My DSL model is certainly one--runs Linux (just telnet to it and you get a login). I'm not sure if that counts, though. It may well not be running Linux on anything that you would recognise as PC hardware. It might not have a BIOS as such, even. Gordon. From ceby2 at csc.com Tue Oct 11 03:08:11 2005 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:08:11 +0100 Subject: IBM System/34 with diskettes & documentation available in Iowa (JP Hindin) In-Reply-To: <200510110435.j9B4ZWx4001706@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Jay, & All, Dude I am seriously jealous. An S/34 and media!? Pity I just moved to England. I'm in the same straight, anyway. I have a 5360 I've been paying storage on. I offer it to the group, but for pickup only. It's in Hartford, CT. Lemme tell you, the S/34 is a beast, but this 5360 is an out and out monster. There are two tape drives, two line printers four hard disks, extended main cabinet, as well as a magazine style 8" floppy. I'd love to elimanate the bill for that, and the flat does have 220 (though of course nowhere near the amperage required). If you can get Jay's S/34 because your a Yank without the four days to do an Iowa run, be tempted by the S/36, please. Jay, keep me posted, I'll do what little I can to facilitate. That machine MUST be preserved. Thanks, Colin Eby -- ceby2 at csc.com CSC - EMEA Northern Region - C&SI -Technology Architect ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From cc at corti-net.de Tue Oct 11 04:20:53 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:20:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: <434AA5FA.9010304@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000401c5cdbe$6d14fee0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <434AA5FA.9010304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, woodelf wrote: > The programs are still out there, but in FORTRAN IV. The biggest problem is > you > don't have the line printers around to give you the OVER STRIKE graphics. Where do you find Fortran programs on the web that do ASCII art? We do have a working IBM 1130 with line printer here, and also have some programs that do EBCDIC art (Snoopy, Sean Connery, Asterix, Wum and Wendelin), and would like to have more. I would even sit at the 029 punch and punch the program and data decks from listings. Christian PS: We also have the 565 Calcomp plotter for the 1130, so "plotter art" is welcome, too. From robo58 at optonline.net Tue Oct 11 07:20:10 2005 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 08:20:10 -0400 Subject: Glen *** : E&L Instruments Fox 1 Z80 Trainer chip questions References: <434A9699.9060302@jetnet.ab.ca> <000301c5cdc6$9bd4cb40$6401a8c0@P43200> <1e1fc3e90510101538n325a52fcga2f5d6a1ff97a6b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301c5ce5e$1ff90bb0$6401a8c0@P43200> Hi Glen Thanks for the assistance. Its now up and running. Can you advise where I might get information on the various ports on both boards and/or documentation on the trainer? Thanks Robo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 6:38 PM Subject: Re: E&L Instruments Fox 1 Z80 Trainer chip questions > On 10/10/05, ROBO5.8 wrote: >> Hi Folks, >> >> I recently obtained a used E&L Instruments MT-80Z microprocessor trainer. >> My goal is to teach my kids a little about microprocessors. >> >> The trainer has 3 empty IC sockets U1-40 pin, U10-40 pin and U-11-28 pin. >> The parts are missing on the board that contains the keyboard and 7 >> segment >> displays. Neither of which work, so I suspect those empty sockets >> require a >> chip or two for operations. >> >> The parts are probably Zilog or Intel PIO's and a CTC (Counter Clock >> Timer). > > Good guess. U10 is an optional PIO. U11 is an optional CTC. U1 is > where the Z80 goes in the MPF-1. On the MT-80Z the Z80 is moved to > the second PCB and U1 is empty on the original PCB. > > Schematics for the original MPF-1 board can be found here: > http://themotionstore.com/leeedavison/z80/mpf1/index.html > > I have never found an online schematic or manual for the MT-80Z. The > monitor EPROM in the MT-80Z I have is slightly different than the > monitor EPROM in the MPF-1, but I think the changes are very minor. > > From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 08:24:58 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:24:58 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <434ACD84.4030904@mdrconsult.com> References: <200510080825.j988PgPn047793@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> <6.2.5.4.2.20051009073434.032ebda0@boff-net.dhs.org> <434ACD84.4030904@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <434BBD2A.50207@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > >> Or you can use an external USB to floppy interface enclosure. A few on >> the list have commented on their use and types. In theory, you could >> have many, many drives this way. > > > I have several of these and have used several other brands and types > and they all have one thing in common. > > They support 3.5" 1.44MB floppy disks *only*. I've taken 2 apart to > see if I could at least substitute a 720K-capable drive, and they're > "integrated". No substitution possible. How about SCSI floppy drives? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 08:32:42 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:32:42 -0400 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434BBEFA.5010903@gmail.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >>What I was wondering about was if a number of diskettes were packed in a >>vacuum-sealed container and placed in an underground "time capsule" or a >>building's cornerstone, if they'd survive 100 or so years... > > > Right, and my question still is, would the MEDIA stop out-gassing if it > was vacuum-packed? Absolutely not. It would probably outgas faster. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 11 10:44:04 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 08:44:04 -0700 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <434BBD2A.50207@gmail.com> References: <200510080825.j988PgPn047793@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> <6.2.5.4.2.20051009073434.032ebda0@boff-net.dhs.org> <434ACD84.4030904@mdrconsult.com> <434BBD2A.50207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510110844040154.050A8749@10.0.0.252> On 10/11/2005 at 9:24 AM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >How about SCSI floppy drives? The problem with SCSI floppies is essentially the same--addressing is on a sector number basis, not CHS. So the drives have limited format recognition capabilities. I've never seen a 5.25' SCSI floppy, though at one time SMS marketed a SCSI-to-FDC conversion board. But that was many years ago in the early days of SCSI, so it probably wouldn't work on a modern SCSI adapter. Perhaps the SCSI firmware in a stock Teac FD-235S could be tweaked, but the drives are pretty hard to come by. Although a stock USB drive is pretty brain-dead, it should be noted that the SMSC USB floppy chip (USB97CFDC2-01) does have the option of attaching a user-supplied external serial EEPROM for custom support. According to the SMSC website, an evaluation board was produced for the first version of this chip (USB97CFDC), and, judging from the schematic, attached to a legacy floppy interface. It'd be interesting to get a couple of the boards and see if the chip could be made to drive a 5.25" drive and how much flexibility is incorporated in the chip (e.g., can FM-encoded diskettes be read?). Of course, host-side drivers would have to be written to handle an expanded interface, but it still might be an interesting exercise. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 11 11:02:21 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:02:21 -0700 Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board Computers In-Reply-To: <434B6015.9050208@gjcp.net> References: <200510101913.OAA25406@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3.0.6.16.20051010152920.432fcd36@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200510101923550992.022DFCD0@10.0.0.252> <434B6015.9050208@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200510110902210545.051B4935@10.0.0.252> On 10/11/2005 at 6:47 AM Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >I'm not sure if that counts, though. It may well not be running Linux >on anything that you would recognise as PC hardware. It might not have >a BIOS as such, even. I meant "PC" in a much broader sense than in the "IBM PC" sense. What I was wondering about was how many "appliances" had sufficient I/O capabilities that they could be configured to run a generic operating system. This would mean at a minimum, some way to do console I/O and some sort of disk storage, as well as being able to support an OS to start with. So my DSL modem would seem to fulfill these requirements, as disk is simulated by flash memory--I suppose an external PC could even serve as a USB disk drive. My little FAX box has suffiicent I/O and memory as well as an internal diskette drive to meet the test. A USR Courier modem, with its 80C188, might, but there's not much RAM and no way to connect an external peripheral, so it fails the test, even though you could probably reprogram the PROM and get it to give you a command prompt via the RS-232 port. How about a TIVO or an MP3 player? Certainly most video game boxes have the necessary resources (I seem to recall a web site dedicated to getting early Xboxes running Linux--it wasn't as simply as you'd think). Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 11:03:14 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:03:14 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <200510110844040154.050A8749@10.0.0.252> References: <200510080825.j988PgPn047793@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> <6.2.5.4.2.20051009073434.032ebda0@boff-net.dhs.org> <434ACD84.4030904@mdrconsult.com> <434BBD2A.50207@gmail.com> <200510110844040154.050A8749@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <434BE242.4020608@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/11/2005 at 9:24 AM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > >>How about SCSI floppy drives? > > > The problem with SCSI floppies is essentially the same--addressing is on a sector number basis, not CHS. So the drives have limited format recognition capabilities. I've never seen a 5.25' SCSI floppy, though at one time SMS marketed a SCSI-to-FDC conversion board. But that was many years ago in the early days of SCSI, so it probably wouldn't work on a modern SCSI adapter. Perhaps the SCSI firmware in a stock Teac FD-235S could be tweaked, but the drives are pretty hard to come by. But a DECstation 2100/3100 comes with a floppy drive hooked to a board with a 34-pin floppy header, and then the SCSI bus from the motherboard plugs into the translator board. Could something like this be used? Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 11 11:14:28 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:14:28 -0700 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <434BE242.4020608@gmail.com> References: <200510080825.j988PgPn047793@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> <6.2.5.4.2.20051009073434.032ebda0@boff-net.dhs.org> <434ACD84.4030904@mdrconsult.com> <434BBD2A.50207@gmail.com> <200510110844040154.050A8749@10.0.0.252> <434BE242.4020608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510110914280879.05266252@10.0.0.252> On 10/11/2005 at 12:03 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >But a DECstation 2100/3100 comes with a floppy drive hooked to a board >with a 34-pin floppy header, and then the SCSI bus from the motherboard >plugs into the translator board. Could something like this be used? Perhaps. But I've not seen one the DECStation boards up close, so I don't have a clue as to what its capabilities might be. Cheers Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 11 11:21:49 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:21:49 +0100 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <200510110914280879.05266252@10.0.0.252> References: <200510080825.j988PgPn047793@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> <6.2.5.4.2.20051009073434.032ebda0@boff-net.dhs.org> <434ACD84.4030904@mdrconsult.com> <434BBD2A.50207@gmail.com> <200510110844040154.050A8749@10.0.0.252> <434BE242.4020608@gmail.com> <200510110914280879.05266252@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <434BE69D.6000408@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/11/2005 at 12:03 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > >>But a DECstation 2100/3100 comes with a floppy drive hooked to a board >>with a 34-pin floppy header, and then the SCSI bus from the motherboard >>plugs into the translator board. Could something like this be used? > > > Perhaps. But I've not seen one the DECStation boards up close, so I don't have a clue as to what its capabilities might be. > In the case of the Torch Manta board - which is presumably similar to the DEC and SMS offerings, it was just a SCSI controller chip, CPU, FDC chip (WDC of some sort IIRC, but one of the less-common ones), and the expected ROM, RAM etc. It'd support four floppy drives of pretty much any type, although there were some limitations when tweaking what pins were used for inputs or outputs (typically all of the potential four drives on the one board were expeted to use the same electrical interface) At a software level it needed a SCSI command to define drive parameters, and from them on it was just like any other SCSI device with multiple LUNs and removeable media. No access was given to any of the raw data stream, though. The board took care of that - it was highly configurable otherwise though. I expect all SCSI-floppy bridge boards are very similar, although earlier ones probably don't support things like SCSI INQUIRY. cheers Jules From brain at jbrain.com Tue Oct 11 11:27:06 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:27:06 -0500 Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 - November 5-6 In-Reply-To: References: <1128937613.970263.108600@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <434BE7DA.5040205@jbrain.com> As part of the 20th anniversary celebration of Quantumlink and the formal introducation of QuantumLink RELOADED, the system will be displayed and available for use at the VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL. Keith Henrickson, the genius behind the reverse engineering of the Q-Link protocol, will be on hand to demonstrate the new system and answer questions about his work and the new system. There will be live connections for attendees to chat with Q-Linkers or play games on the system. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From mamcfadden at cmh.edu Tue Oct 11 11:31:55 2005 From: mamcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike, A) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:31:55 -0500 Subject: Archival storage Message-ID: Fred Cisin wrote: >>I would suspect yes ... I think too the computer could be kept at just >>above zero >>in a dark place in a light vacuum too. > > > How much would it cost to move Sellam's collection > to the dark side of the moon? Actually the other half of Sellam's collection is already there waiting for indexing after Google finishes indexing the net. :) Mike From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 11 12:03:42 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:03:42 -0500 Subject: HP terminal question Message-ID: <006901c5ce85$bc1f3060$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ok, I give. I'm afraid to try harder for fear of breaking it.... Just exactly how does one get the cover off an HP 262X terminal? I can't seem to find any service information. I have a few in poor condition I'm trying to consolidate into two good working ones. There may be leftover parts to offer to the list. Jay From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 11 12:24:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 10:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Electronics recycling (Now OT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 Sellam wrote: > > On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 10/9/2005 at 1:03 PM Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Whatever the case, we have enough problems to solve domestically that we > shouldn't concern ourselves with what's going on 8,000 miles away. > > ...and neither should we export our problems to far-flung lands. :) > > If they didn't want it, they wouldn't be taking it in at the rate of > thousands of tons per day ;) > > and creating toxic dust that blows back to us . . . > In the US, companies are liable for cleanup expenses if their contractors dispose of hazardous waste improperly. Do we not have an ethical obligation to ensure that our potentially toxic waste does not harm others, even if they are 8,000 miles away? > I may not be able to control what others do, but I have an ethical obligation to not become complicit in evil/wrongdoing. Which is my point, that we should focus on what WE do HERE first and foremost, and if we're ethical and honest about it then it won't be a problem IF it goes over THERE. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 11 12:40:26 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:40:26 -0600 Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: References: <000401c5cdbe$6d14fee0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <434AA5FA.9010304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <434BF90A.5050805@jetnet.ab.ca> Christian Corti wrote: > Where do you find Fortran programs on the web that do ASCII art? We do > have a working IBM 1130 with line printer here, and also have some > programs that do EBCDIC art (Snoopy, Sean Connery, Asterix, Wum and > Wendelin), and would like to have more. I would even sit at the 029 > punch and punch the program and data decks from listings. > I think you may have to get the FORTRAN programs from other FORTRAN versions than the IBM 1130. THE JEFFERSON COMPUTER MUSEUM ( http://www.threedee.com/jcm/index.html ) was looking for the full character set of the ASR-33 for scanning to create a PS font. I think the same idea would be good for the IBM line printer fonts. Note they still want the ASR-33 character set too. > Christian > > PS: > We also have the 565 Calcomp plotter for the 1130, so "plotter art" is > welcome, too. It is good to see a WORKING IBM-1130 since they are very rare compared to how many were made, That last one I've seen was in 1981. In 1982 it was replaced with a VAX, and scrapped for gold. Ben alias Woodelf From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 11 12:50:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 10:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: <434BF90A.5050805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, woodelf wrote: > THE JEFFERSON COMPUTER MUSEUM ( http://www.threedee.com/jcm/index.html ) > was looking for the full character set of the ASR-33 for scanning to > create a PS font. This font has been available for some time: http://www.searchfreefonts.com/archive/zip/teleb.zip There's a bold "italic" version that has offset print: http://www.searchfreefonts.com/archive/zip/telebi.zip ...and a less bold version: http://www.searchfreefonts.com/archive/zip/telei.zip It's a pretty good rendition. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allanh-cctalk at kallisti.com Tue Oct 11 13:01:57 2005 From: allanh-cctalk at kallisti.com (Allan Hessenflow) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:01:57 -0700 Subject: Ringout on Overland Data TX-8/TX-16 cable? In-Reply-To: <200510111700.j9BH04kL006555@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510111700.j9BH04kL006555@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20051011110157.A13392@kallisti.com> "Nico de Jong" wrote: > Fra: "Allan Hessenflow" > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > > Does anyone have the wiring details for the Pertec-to-Overland Data > > > TX-8 or TX-16 cable used on OD's non-SCSI 9-track equipment? It's > > > got a D-sub 62-pin male connector on one end and two 50 conductor female > > > edge connectors on the other labeled P1 and P2. > > > > I rung one out, here is my documentation: > > > > > IS this data for the TX8/TXi16 ? Your answer is not completely clear in this > respect (anyway, the way I read it= Yes, that is for the cable provided with an Overland Data TX-8. What's the "blue" adapter? I've never heard of any Overland Data Pertec controllers besides the TX-8 and the TXi-16 before. Did the same company really use the same connector for the same purpose but a different pinout? allan -- Allan N. Hessenflow allanh at kallisti.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 11 13:04:35 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:04:35 -0600 Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434BFEB3.3070301@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, woodelf wrote: > > > >>THE JEFFERSON COMPUTER MUSEUM ( http://www.threedee.com/jcm/index.html ) >>was looking for the full character set of the ASR-33 for scanning to >>create a PS font. >> >> > >This font has been available for some time: > >http://www.searchfreefonts.com/archive/zip/teleb.zip > > Umm where are the @ "#$[]<>= and back-arrow up-arrow characters? From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Oct 11 13:33:55 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:33:55 -0700 Subject: Ringout on Overland Data TX-8/TX-16 cable? In-Reply-To: <20051011110157.A13392@kallisti.com> References: <200510111700.j9BH04kL006555@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051011110157.A13392@kallisti.com> Message-ID: <434C0593.6030500@msm.umr.edu> Allan Hessenflow wrote: > >Yes, that is for the cable provided with an Overland Data TX-8. What's >the "blue" adapter? I've never heard of any Overland Data Pertec >controllers besides the TX-8 and the TXi-16 before. Did the same company >really use the same connector for the same purpose but a different pinout? > >allan > > > Only thing I've seen on Overland drives, not adapters, is a parallel port on some of the 1/2" decks. I have used all the cables interchangably and with both controllers. I think I have one of every controller they made from the tc-50 on up. Of course they used two 50 pin cables, not the custom round one. jim From nock at email.arizona.edu Tue Oct 11 13:55:10 2005 From: nock at email.arizona.edu (Shawn Nock) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:55:10 -0700 Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? In-Reply-To: <434C0593.6030500@msm.umr.edu> References: <200510111700.j9BH04kL006555@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051011110157.A13392@kallisti.com> <434C0593.6030500@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <434C0A8E.2080906@email.arizona.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Freeman Computer Museum for Sale... http://www.boingboing.net/2005/10/10/vintage_computer_gea.html - -- Shawn Nock (OpenPGP: 0x8ED6EE9A) Broadcast Engineer; KUAT-TV 6, Tucson, AZ University of Arizona nock 'at' email.arizona.edu desk: 520.621.3280 cell: 520.820.0687 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFDTAqOXOm+F47W7poRAobjAKCLMx3MlKOJFlesbyrT/IGyTDYrrACeNE55 FeggDDebVB8ur3w0KxoV6q4= =jlS1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Oct 11 14:02:23 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:02:23 -0700 Subject: HP terminal question In-Reply-To: <006901c5ce85$bc1f3060$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> (Jay West's message of "Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:03:42 -0500") References: <006901c5ce85$bc1f3060$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200510111902.j9BJ2N3Y041533@lots.reanimators.org> Jay West wrote: > Ok, I give. I'm afraid to try harder for fear of breaking it.... This fear is well-grounded. My observation has been that the plastics used in their construction become more brittle with age. > Just exactly how does one get the cover off an HP 262X terminal? I > can't seem to find any service information. If you look at it from the rear you will see a captive cross-head screw below the connector panel to the terminal's right (your left if you're facing the terminal's rear). That turns a quarter or half turn, can't remember which. Once loosened you can slide the whole top of the terminal forward a few cm and tilt it up; it is hinged under the left side of the top where the top meets the base. Note that hinge is made of plastic and may have become brittle, and if it snaps while you've got it open the top of the terminal may fall down to your workbench. This exposes the bottom of the logic board, which is held in place by two or three plastic captive doodads which pull down, then the logic board drops down. I'm thinking the plastic doodads can be brittle and so can the plastic wells that they poke into and expand within, and I was seeing them breaking in the early-to-mid 1990s which is about the last time I had one of these open. If you want to take the top cover (top half of the top) off, there are a couple obvious wells in the top that have cross-head screws in their bottoms, then the top cover is loose and pulls up and back. -Frank McConnell From news at computercollector.com Tue Oct 11 14:03:42 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:03:42 -0400 Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? In-Reply-To: <434C0A8E.2080906@email.arizona.edu> Message-ID: <002901c5ce96$801eb700$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> No, that is real. The hoax was when someone else posted an ad that spoofed it. Mr. Freeman just keeps re-posting his own ad every few months because no one is coming close to the reserve price. (Which I'm not at liberty to disclose, so don't ask.) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Shawn Nock Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 2:55 PM To: General at email.arizona.edu; Discussion at email.arizona.edu :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Freeman Computer Museum for Sale... http://www.boingboing.net/2005/10/10/vintage_computer_gea.html - -- Shawn Nock (OpenPGP: 0x8ED6EE9A) Broadcast Engineer; KUAT-TV 6, Tucson, AZ University of Arizona nock 'at' email.arizona.edu desk: 520.621.3280 cell: 520.820.0687 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFDTAqOXOm+F47W7poRAobjAKCLMx3MlKOJFlesbyrT/IGyTDYrrACeNE55 FeggDDebVB8ur3w0KxoV6q4= =jlS1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Tue Oct 11 14:20:32 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:20:32 +0200 Subject: Ringout on Overland Data TX-8/TX-16 cable? References: <200510111700.j9BH04kL006555@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051011110157.A13392@kallisti.com> Message-ID: <001501c5ce98$d98ca070$2101a8c0@finans> Fra: "Allan Hessenflow" Emne: Re: Ringout on Overland Data TX-8/TX-16 cable? > "Nico de Jong" wrote: > > IS this data for the TX8/TXi16 ? Your answer is not completely clear in this > > respect (anyway, the way I read it= > > Yes, that is for the cable provided with an Overland Data TX-8. What's > the "blue" adapter? I've never heard of any Overland Data Pertec > controllers besides the TX-8 and the TXi-16 before. Did the same company > really use the same connector for the same purpose but a different pinout? > Great, thanks. Now I can sort them. The blue adapter is an 8-bit adapter one of my customers had before I changed it to a TX8. I'm quite convinced that it was an Overland product, but I am not so sure that I want to put my head on the block. It was a horrible thing, but it was easily programmable, and that meant that we could skip bad blocks on 9 track tapes. Could someone enlighten me to what the name of that thing could have been ? Nico From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 11 06:53:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:53:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP terminal question In-Reply-To: <006901c5ce85$bc1f3060$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Oct 11, 5 12:03:42 pm Message-ID: > > Ok, I give. I'm afraid to try harder for fear of breaking it.... > > Just exactly how does one get the cover off an HP 262X terminal? I can't What does it look like? > seem to find any service information. Have you tried poking around on http://www.hpmuseum.net? That's an Australian site which has a lot of user and service (maybe boardswapper level, maybe more useful :-)) manuals for desktop and larger HP computers and peripherals. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 11 06:44:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:44:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unix on BBC micro with 16032 coprocessor In-Reply-To: <434B2992.2070008@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 11, 5 03:55:14 am Message-ID: > > > > Silly random thought. IIRC, there's an empty 40 pin DIL socket on the ACW > > coprocessor board, and I think it's on the 32016 sencond processor board > > too (I must come and collect that from you). Wasn't that for an MMU chip? > > Yep, you're right (about there being empty sockets on both versions of > the board). I suppose it's logical it'd be an MMU chip given that > there's no other connectors to the board (e.g. it's not for an optional > serial chip or whatever). I've checked my ACW schematics, and it is for an 32082 MMU chip. My guess (as this wasn't used by PANOS) is that it was intended to be used for some never-released multitasking OS, probably a unix derrivative. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Oct 11 15:00:26 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:00:26 -0700 Subject: CP/M on an Apple II ? References: Message-ID: <434C19DA.FC295035@cs.ubc.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Hans Franke wrote: > > > > ... maybe the scriptwriting 'computing consultant' figured it would be a good > > > inside joke, ... maybe it's somebody on this list! > > > > Nope, it seams like a rare case where script writer did > > realy use technology without screwing it up. > > Can Brent get the name of the play that he heard so we can figure out who > the author is? It sounds like they might even be a collector/historian ;) The series was called "The Old Guy", I didn't catch the title of the particular episode. Some of the characters are Charlie (McMann?McCann), Malcolm and Joline. Also, it was a replay, I recall hearing it first a couple (~ 1 to 3) years ago. I tried searching the CBC web site for a reference or production credits & c. but turned up nothing. .. I thought the web site might be a good backup/reference for the broadcasts, but apparently it's like the majority of (esp. corporate/commercial) web sites out there: 95% fluff, useless graphics, filler & advertising, 5% content. Even the "archives" seem to be a selection of material based on what somebody-else-thinks-is-important. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Oct 11 15:25:09 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:25:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: Sridhar Ayengar "Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware" (Oct 11, 12:03) References: <200510080825.j988PgPn047793@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> <6.2.5.4.2.20051009073434.032ebda0@boff-net.dhs.org> <434ACD84.4030904@mdrconsult.com> <434BBD2A.50207@gmail.com> <200510110844040154.050A8749@10.0.0.252> <434BE242.4020608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <10510112125.ZM27083@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 11 2005, 12:03, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 10/11/2005 at 9:24 AM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > >>How about SCSI floppy drives? > > > > The problem with SCSI floppies is essentially the same--addressing is on a sector number basis, not CHS. So the drives have limited format recognition capabilities. I've never seen a 5.25' SCSI floppy I have a couple, from SGI equipment IIRC. They're basically a standard floppy with a bridge board fitted, and so are 3.5" TEAC floppies from SGI workstations. The Insite flopticals, though, are made as a native SCSI device. > But a DECstation 2100/3100 comes with a floppy drive hooked to a board > with a 34-pin floppy header, and then the SCSI bus from the motherboard > plugs into the translator board. Could something like this be used? Up to a point. You can certainly put either a 5.25" or a 3.5" drive on those boards, but as far as I remember, they still only recognise fairly standard (read "IBM PC/MS-DOS style") formats -- certainly that's true of the floptical and SGI devices. Anything with sector numbers starting at zero is hard to handle, for example. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Oct 11 16:15:40 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:15:40 -0400 Subject: Dying PCjr drive; options? Message-ID: <20051011211539.VQMM5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Ironically, I have a 5150 with the full-length FDC with a very long port on it >(something like 40-pin female?) that I assume I could connect drives to... but >I have no idea what the pinout is or where to obtain a cable. I am not the >soldering type (watch me duck as the flying tomatoes come from the peanut gallery) If I recall correctly, the 37-pin 'D' connector on the back of early XT controllers is 1:1 with the 34 pin ribbon cable, and you can use a ribbon cable 'D' connector to make up a nice tidy cable (check position on pin-1). Btw, I made some changes to ImageDisks Align/Test function this morning which may be useful to you. I added a real-time display of the following bits from status register 3 at the top of the screen: F - Fault W - write protect R - Ready Z - Track 0 D - Two sided In this case, 'Z' would let you see exactly when the track-0 sensor comes on and off (as you adjust it's position). I also added commands to Format and to Write individual tracks "on the fly" from the test function (there was already a function to read tracks). So now you can do pretty much anything the drive is capable of under manual control. I should have it posted in a day or two. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Oct 11 16:16:09 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [M]y state's historical archiving group [] are back to the issue of > digital archiving for a new reason, space. They would like to have > some form of high density storage (higher than paper) Paper may actually not be totally out of the question. With decent printing technology you can get about 75dpi with fairly clear readability. If you put 8x10.5 inches of data on an 8.5x11 inch page, that gives you 8*10.5*75*75 or 472500 bits, 59062.5 bytes, per page (or, actually, per page side). You'd want to keep a few pages describing the encoding used in English, but they're overhead and can be amortized over many pages of data. With sufficient patience and a magnifier (and proper encoding algorithm description) it could even be unpacked by hand. > Does anyone know if there are optical formats that can reliably > deliver 10 year shelf-life? Ummm...do pressed CDs count? (As opposed to CD-Rs and CD-RWs.) Not many collections of data are worth doing a one-off pressed CD, but it may not be out of the question for some data. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Oct 11 16:23:33 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <20051009110030.6bb202c7.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <0IO300ECWH9RGN63@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20051009100052.57496ce4.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510091014.31801.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20051009110030.6bb202c7.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200510112128.RAA16760@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > It's no surprise that UNIX vendors adopted PCI but never touched ISA. Didn't the Sun 386i (the "Road Runner") use ISA? Mine certainly uses something similar enough to fool me. (I just checked. Which at least means I've got it out, now; I need to get it packed up and shipped off to the person I promised it to. Yeah, in my Copious Spare Time....) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Oct 11 16:29:04 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510112134.RAA16796@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I've never heard of anybody making more than double-sided PCBs at > home (I would love to be proved wrong!). I can't *prove* you wrong. But I've spoken with someone who claimed to have done it, and when I started asking questions, talked a good enough line that I found it believable. As she described it, you need epoxy/fibreglass mix, which you cast a thin sheet of. You then sand it smooth, copper-plate it, and etch. Slap on another coat of epoxy and fibreglass, let it cure, sand it smooth, copper-plate, and etch. Lather, rinse, repeat. The hard part is of course quality control (and plated-through vias, which you can get somewhere with by drilling holes before doing the last copper-plating). And registration of the layers. But with patience and attention to detail...after all, anyone doing this is considering time to be worth a great deal less than money, or the job would simply be shipped off to a commercial pcb fab house. :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From news at computercollector.com Tue Oct 11 10:54:33 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:54:33 -0400 Subject: Kaypro help desperately needed in Ohio... Message-ID: <001101c5ce7c$137309e0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Got this message today; a guy in the Columbus, Ohio area needs help reading his father's will which was made 20 years ago on a Kaypro 2x. Do not contact me, contact the guy directly at gpgammon at sbcglobal.net. ----------------------------------------- Hi Evan - I got your name from David Weil at the Computer Museum of America in San Diego. I have a unique situation and he suggested you may be able to help or provide some direction. I would appreciate any assistance. Here it is, briefly: I have a 5.25" DS/DD diskette that contains my deceased father's will (he died in April). It was created on a Kaypro 2x in 1986. I am desperately trying to locate a Kaypro 2x that will read the diskette. I have the Kaypro that it was written on in my possession, and I have had no luck in reading the diskette - I have a CP/M diskette for a Kaypro 2, and each time I put it in Drive A:, the message "No operating system is present on this disk" appears. I have tried swapping Drive A: and Drive B: - no luck. I have tried reading the diskette using a DD drive hooked up to a PC running Windows - no luck. The only success I have had is using EnCase Forensic software to read the data sector by sector. Of course, that produces unformatted text, so it hasn't been helpful. Any thoughts? If you would like, I would be willing to call you to discuss this over the phone. Thank you. Greg Gammon Westerville, OH ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 11 16:43:26 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:43:26 -0500 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> At 04:16 PM 10/11/2005, der Mouse wrote: >Paper may actually not be totally out of the question. With decent >printing technology you can get about 75dpi with fairly clear >readability. As we've flogged many times before, "Which printing technology"? Laser printer toner has characteristics that make it unsuitable (such as the way it'll transfer from page to page when pressed tightly). Ink jets are soluble. Dye sub? Wax transfer? >If you put 8x10.5 inches of data on an 8.5x11 inch page, >that gives you 8*10.5*75*75 or 472500 bits, 59062.5 bytes, per page >(or, actually, per page side). Or about five reams of ordinary copy paper per CD, consuming most of an ordinary laser toner cartridge, not even counting any overhead for error correction. Not cheap, not easy, not even reliable - and considering you'd need to develop new forms of paper-reading equipment and software to retrieve it. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 11 16:54:06 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:54:06 -0500 Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: References: <434BF90A.5050805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051011164852.041e8218@mail> At 12:50 PM 10/11/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, woodelf wrote: >> THE JEFFERSON COMPUTER MUSEUM ( http://www.threedee.com/jcm/index.html ) >> was looking for the full character set of the ASR-33 for scanning to >> create a PS font. My page also points to a reasonably good teleprinter font but I see the link is broken (and it was discussed on this list six years ago.) I see the font's artist has his own page now: http://www.zanzig.com/download/ http://www.zanzig.com/download/fonts03.gif >This font has been available for some time: >http://www.searchfreefonts.com/archive/zip/teleb.zip >It's a pretty good rendition. And here's a link where you can see it: http://www.searchfreefonts.com/font-search.php?q=teleprinter Are they the same? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 11 16:58:44 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:58:44 -0500 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051011165722.04ab4d58@mail> At 04:43 PM 10/11/2005, John Foust wrote: >At 04:16 PM 10/11/2005, der Mouse wrote: >>If you put 8x10.5 inches of data on an 8.5x11 inch page, >>that gives you 8*10.5*75*75 or 472500 bits, 59062.5 bytes, per page >>(or, actually, per page side). > >Or about five reams of ordinary copy paper per CD Whoops. Error in spreadsheet and operator. Make that 92 reams per CD - or about 60 meg per ream. - John From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 11 17:03:30 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:03:30 -0700 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> Message-ID: <200510111503300309.0665EBDA@10.0.0.252> On 10/11/2005 at 4:43 PM John Foust wrote: >As we've flogged many times before, "Which printing technology"? >Laser printer toner has characteristics that make it unsuitable >(such as the way it'll transfer from page to page when pressed >tightly). Ink jets are soluble. Dye sub? Wax transfer? Back when small printers were hard to come by, there was at least one technology that used a "paper' made of a black layer on a paper substrate covered by a very thin layer of aluminum. The printer burned through the aluminum, leaving the black spots exposed. Oddly enough, this sounds like a fiarly permanent process. Was the stuff called "electrographic" paper? Before CD's, weren't there some experimental recording methods using phase-change glass? Was it the Ovionics people that pioneered this? Photographic images have a very long life, assuming careful storage. Tintypes maybe? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 11 17:07:45 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:07:45 -0600 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <434C37B1.4080704@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: >Paper may actually not be totally out of the question. With decent >printing technology you can get about 75dpi with fairly clear >readability > > >>Does anyone know if there are optical formats that can reliably >>deliver 10 year shelf-life? >> >> > >Ummm...do pressed CDs count? (As opposed to CD-Rs and CD-RWs.) Not >many collections of data are worth doing a one-off pressed CD, but it >may not be out of the question for some data. > > Umm give me the record instead -- @1200 baud :) What ever happed to the cheap write once media , something like paper tape or magnetic stipe cards with I think laser holes similar to a CD. I saw it in BYTE once but I never heard about them again. Note Digital Paper looks like a intersting storage medum too, >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > >. > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 11 17:13:16 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:13:16 -0600 Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051011164852.041e8218@mail> References: <434BF90A.5050805@jetnet.ab.ca> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011164852.041e8218@mail> Message-ID: <434C38FC.8050309@jetnet.ab.ca> John Foust wrote: >http://www.searchfreefonts.com/font-search.php?q=teleprinter > >Are they the same? > > They look to be the same. >- John > > From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 17:31:55 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 18:31:55 -0400 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <434C3D5B.8060707@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: > Ummm...do pressed CDs count? (As opposed to CD-Rs and CD-RWs.) Not > many collections of data are worth doing a one-off pressed CD, but it > may not be out of the question for some data. How long do Mitsui Gold CD-R's last? Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 11 17:38:00 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:38:00 -0700 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <434C37B1.4080704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <434C37B1.4080704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200510111538000158.068580E0@10.0.0.252> How about Hollerith cards made of thin sheets of irridium? :) --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Oct 11 17:55:58 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:55:58 -0500 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051011165722.04ab4d58@mail> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011165722.04ab4d58@mail> Message-ID: <200510111755.58730.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 11 October 2005 16:58, John Foust wrote: > At 04:43 PM 10/11/2005, John Foust wrote: > >At 04:16 PM 10/11/2005, der Mouse wrote: > >>If you put 8x10.5 inches of data on an 8.5x11 inch page, > >>that gives you 8*10.5*75*75 or 472500 bits, 59062.5 bytes, per page > >>(or, actually, per page side). > > > >Or about five reams of ordinary copy paper per CD > > Whoops. Error in spreadsheet and operator. > > Make that 92 reams per CD - or about 60 meg per ream. At 700MB/cd, it'd be about 12 reams per CD, not 92. 92 reams would get you about 5.4GB, which is more than a (single-sided, single layer) DVD-R holds. -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 18:06:11 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? In-Reply-To: <002901c5ce96$801eb700$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <20051011230611.78817.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Maybe he should split it up a little - 3 tons of computers is a lot for anyone to take... --- 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > No, that is real. The hoax was when someone else > posted an ad that spoofed > it. > > Mr. Freeman just keeps re-posting his own ad every > few months because no one > is coming close to the reserve price. (Which I'm > not at liberty to > disclose, so don't ask.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Shawn Nock > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 2:55 PM > To: General at email.arizona.edu; > Discussion at email.arizona.edu :On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Freeman Computer Museum for Sale... > > http://www.boingboing.net/2005/10/10/vintage_computer_gea.html > > - -- > Shawn Nock (OpenPGP: 0x8ED6EE9A) > Broadcast Engineer; KUAT-TV 6, Tucson, AZ University > of Arizona nock 'at' > email.arizona.edu > desk: 520.621.3280 > cell: 520.820.0687 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) > > iD8DBQFDTAqOXOm+F47W7poRAobjAKCLMx3MlKOJFlesbyrT/IGyTDYrrACeNE55 > FeggDDebVB8ur3w0KxoV6q4= > =jlS1 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Oct 11 18:10:14 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? In-Reply-To: <20051011230611.78817.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Maybe he should split it up a little - 3 tons of > computers is a lot for anyone to take... Well....nevermind. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 11 18:14:46 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:14:46 -0600 Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? In-Reply-To: <20051011230611.78817.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051011230611.78817.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <434C4766.40706@jetnet.ab.ca> steven stengel wrote: >Maybe he should split it up a little - 3 tons of >computers is a lot for anyone to take... > > > Now how heavy is the I/O Equiment and Memory boxes if that real Classic Computers. :) Also while I have got you attention as for archived material on CD I suspect the hard part is keeping all together, not archiving the material. Remember --- Can you still bootstrap your data off the CD in 20 years? Ben alias Woodelf From news at computercollector.com Tue Oct 11 19:03:30 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:03:30 -0400 Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? In-Reply-To: <20051011230611.78817.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006a01c5cec0$621c6d40$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> I've been urging him, unsuccessfully so far, to do that. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steven stengel Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 7:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? Maybe he should split it up a little - 3 tons of computers is a lot for anyone to take... --- 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > No, that is real. The hoax was when someone else posted an ad that > spoofed it. > > Mr. Freeman just keeps re-posting his own ad every few months because > no one is coming close to the reserve price. (Which I'm not at > liberty to disclose, so don't ask.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Shawn Nock > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 2:55 PM > To: General at email.arizona.edu; > Discussion at email.arizona.edu :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Freeman Computer Museum for Sale... > > http://www.boingboing.net/2005/10/10/vintage_computer_gea.html > > - -- > Shawn Nock (OpenPGP: 0x8ED6EE9A) > Broadcast Engineer; KUAT-TV 6, Tucson, AZ University of Arizona nock > 'at' > email.arizona.edu > desk: 520.621.3280 > cell: 520.820.0687 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) > > iD8DBQFDTAqOXOm+F47W7poRAobjAKCLMx3MlKOJFlesbyrT/IGyTDYrrACeNE55 > FeggDDebVB8ur3w0KxoV6q4= > =jlS1 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Oct 11 19:12:18 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:12:18 -0500 Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? In-Reply-To: <20051011230611.78817.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <002901c5ce96$801eb700$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <20051011230611.78817.qmail@web34108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051011191218.78eb048a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:06:11 -0700 (PDT) steven stengel wrote: > Maybe he should split it up a little - 3 tons of > computers is a lot for anyone to take... > > Perhaps his 'ego' is wrapped up in it remaining a collection. It isn't unusual for somebody to spend a lifetime putting together what they consider 'the ultimate collecton' and despairing at the idea of it being split apart into fragments, undoing the thing the collector worked long and hard to accomplish. It isn't unusual for collectors of various things to want to bestow them, complete, to an institution that will keep it together as a collection. From news at computercollector.com Tue Oct 11 19:10:17 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:10:17 -0400 Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? In-Reply-To: <20051011191218.78eb048a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006b01c5cec1$54628580$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Yes, that's basically the case, as I understand it. Not ego though, just genuine good intentions, perhaps slightly misguided. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Scott Stevens Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 8:12 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:06:11 -0700 (PDT) steven stengel wrote: > Maybe he should split it up a little - 3 tons of computers is a lot > for anyone to take... > > Perhaps his 'ego' is wrapped up in it remaining a collection. It isn't unusual for somebody to spend a lifetime putting together what they consider 'the ultimate collecton' and despairing at the idea of it being split apart into fragments, undoing the thing the collector worked long and hard to accomplish. It isn't unusual for collectors of various things to want to bestow them, complete, to an institution that will keep it together as a collection. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 11 19:17:43 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:17:43 -0500 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510111755.58730.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011165722.04ab4d58@mail> <200510111755.58730.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051011191656.04a58670@mail> At 05:55 PM 10/11/2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >At 700MB/cd, it'd be about 12 reams per CD, not 92. 92 reams would get >you about 5.4GB, which is more than a (single-sided, single layer) >DVD-R holds. My math: 472,500 bits per page 945,000 bits per double-sided page 118,125 bytes per double-sided page 681,574,400 bytes per 650 M CD 5,452,595,200 bits per CD 46,160 pages 92 reams 59,062,500 bytes per ream - John From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Oct 11 19:23:24 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? Message-ID: <200510120023.RAA12720@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Scott Stevens" > >On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:06:11 -0700 (PDT) >steven stengel wrote: > >> Maybe he should split it up a little - 3 tons of >> computers is a lot for anyone to take... >> >> > >Perhaps his 'ego' is wrapped up in it remaining a collection. It isn't >unusual for somebody to spend a lifetime putting together what they >consider 'the ultimate collecton' and despairing at the idea of it being >split apart into fragments, undoing the thing the collector worked long >and hard to accomplish. It isn't unusual for collectors of various >things to want to bestow them, complete, to an institution that will >keep it together as a collection. > > Hi There is also the issue of putting together the documentation. Often times one piece of documentation or even a piece of software is really relevant to several items. Figuring what goes with what is not straight forward in all cases. Splitting these items into the smallest pieces detracts from the value of the hole group. To make things a little more difficult is that the overlap many not make nice partitioning either. It is difficult to say to what level he should split things. If he splits things into categories, like all the AppleII's in one pile, he may make the package less desirable to someone that already has most of the pieces. If he splits it down to the smallest piece, it loses value as a collection. On top of it all, he may not be physically or mentally able to handle splitting it up because of a medical condition. All that being said, it would be unlikely that he'd find a buyer for the entire lot that would compare with the individual values of the items. He needs to find a way to partition it into reasonable blocks. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 11 19:46:48 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051011174553.B45203@shell.lmi.net> > > Maybe he should split it up a little - 3 tons of > > computers is a lot for anyone to take... placed on the light side of the moon, it would not offset the gravitational effect of Sellam's collection From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 19:55:45 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 01:55:45 +0100 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <200510112128.RAA16760@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0IO300ECWH9RGN63@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20051009100052.57496ce4.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510091014.31801.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20051009110030.6bb202c7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510112128.RAA16760@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <26c11a640510111755g1f85ddccw@mail.gmail.com> Just to complicate things more. I haven't taken one apart, but I was thinking some of the older laptop floppy drives might not be so integrated. You can get a pci-->pcmcia card for around ?15 here. Would a pcmcia flopply drive fit the bill ? Dan From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 18:21:00 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:21:00 -0400 Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434C48DC.3010102@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >>Maybe he should split it up a little - 3 tons of >>computers is a lot for anyone to take... > > > Well....nevermind. I was thinking the same thing... 8-) Peace... Sridhar From gilcarrick at comcast.net Tue Oct 11 20:18:42 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:18:42 -0500 Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board Computers In-Reply-To: <200510110902210545.051B4935@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510120128.j9C1SHUe065479@keith.ezwind.net> I understand that Linksys routers run Linux and they have no disk drive and no console, so I think your definition is not very useful. An OS does not require secondary storage. The Palm OS prior to release 5 assumed there was no secondary storage. Every program is always in the real memory space. The Knoppix distro of Linux is quite happy running on a RAM disk. I have a laptop that I boot Knoppix on that has a broken hard drive. It runs just fine. While it boots from the CD-ROM, it uncompresses everything you run to a RAM drive and runs it from there. It will also boot from a USB drive. The closest that the router has to a console is that it supports HTTP on port 80 so you configure it with a browser. A nice GUI. The router does not require a console. For that matter, many servers run "headless". Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 11:02 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single > Board Computers > > On 10/11/2005 at 6:47 AM Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > >I'm not sure if that counts, though. It may well not be > running Linux > >on anything that you would recognise as PC hardware. It > might not have > >a BIOS as such, even. > > I meant "PC" in a much broader sense than in the "IBM PC" > sense. What I was wondering about was how many "appliances" > had sufficient I/O capabilities that they could be configured > to run a generic operating system. This would mean at a > minimum, some way to do console I/O and some sort of disk > storage, as well as being able to support an OS to start > with. So my DSL modem would seem to fulfill these > requirements, as disk is simulated by flash memory--I suppose > an external PC could even serve as a USB disk drive. My > little FAX box has suffiicent I/O and memory as well as an > internal diskette drive to meet the test. > > A USR Courier modem, with its 80C188, might, but there's not > much RAM and no way to connect an external peripheral, so it > fails the test, even though you could probably reprogram the > PROM and get it to give you a command prompt via the RS-232 port. > > How about a TIVO or an MP3 player? Certainly most video game > boxes have the necessary resources (I seem to recall a web > site dedicated to getting early Xboxes running Linux--it > wasn't as simply as you'd think). > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 20:23:53 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:23:53 -0400 Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board Computers In-Reply-To: <200510120128.j9C1SHUe065479@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510120128.j9C1SHUe065479@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <434C65A9.9060008@gmail.com> Gil Carrick wrote: > I understand that Linksys routers run Linux and they have no disk drive and > no console, so I think your definition is not very useful. It uses flash as secondary storage. Also, it is easy, almost trivial, to add a console. Peace... Sridhar From gilcarrick at comcast.net Tue Oct 11 20:34:21 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:34:21 -0500 Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board Computers In-Reply-To: <434C65A9.9060008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510120143.j9C1hw9v065712@keith.ezwind.net> ... > > I understand that Linksys routers run Linux and they have no disk > > drive and no console, so I think your definition is not very useful. > > It uses flash as secondary storage. Also, it is easy, almost > trivial, to add a console. Sure, but my point was that it normally runs without one so that saying a device requires secondary storage and a console to be considered as containing an OS is not a definition that is very useful. Gil > > Peace... Sridhar From James at jdfogg.com Tue Oct 11 21:01:16 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 22:01:16 -0400 Subject: Archival storage Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E586B@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Back when small printers were hard to come by, there was at > least one technology that used a "paper' made of a black > layer on a paper substrate covered by a very thin layer of > aluminum. The printer burned through the aluminum, leaving > the black spots exposed. Oddly enough, this sounds like a > fiarly permanent process. Was the stuff called > "electrographic" paper? This might be Readex Microprint technology. I've never seen an example of Readex output, although the company is a few miles from me and used to be a microfiche customer. I do know they got significant storage reduction compared to paper. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Oct 11 21:49:35 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:49:35 -0500 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051011191656.04a58670@mail> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510111755.58730.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011191656.04a58670@mail> Message-ID: <200510112149.35153.pat@computer-refuge.org> John Foust declared on Tuesday 11 October 2005 07:17 pm: > At 05:55 PM 10/11/2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >At 700MB/cd, it'd be about 12 reams per CD, not 92. 92 reams would > > get you about 5.4GB, which is more than a (single-sided, single > > layer) DVD-R holds. > > My math: > > 472,500 bits per page > 945,000 bits per double-sided page > 118,125 bytes per double-sided page > 681,574,400 bytes per 650 M CD > 5,452,595,200 bits per CD > 46,160 pages > 92 reams > 59,062,500 bytes per ream ^^^ That's bytes per ream, not bits per ream. 681MByte/CD / 59MByte/ream = 11.5 reams/CD Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Oct 11 22:07:26 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:07:26 -0700 Subject: Need a driver: Intel PCMCIA Flash card Message-ID: <200510112007260715.5450E0E1@192.168.42.129> Fellow classic'ers, I've been all over Intel's site and Google, and have come up empty. I have here a 4MB PCMCIA 'FLASH' card with Intel's name and colors on it. I know it has a standard MS-DOS filesystem on it, and I'm trying to find a driver to read the thing under Windows 2000 Pro. I'll resort to FreeBSD if I have to, but I would prefer otherwise. I've tried the current version of SystemSoft's CardWizard Pro with no luck. Ideas? Declarations? Speeches about how looney the whole idea is? Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 11 22:13:50 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:13:50 -0600 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510112149.35153.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510111755.58730.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011191656.04a58670@mail> <200510112149.35153.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <434C7F6E.2020103@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >John Foust declared on Tuesday 11 October 2005 07:17 pm: > > >>At 05:55 PM 10/11/2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> >> >>>At 700MB/cd, it'd be about 12 reams per CD, not 92. 92 reams would >>>get you about 5.4GB, which is more than a (single-sided, single >>>layer) DVD-R holds. >>> >>> >>My math: >> >>472,500 bits per page >>945,000 bits per double-sided page >>118,125 bytes per double-sided page >>681,574,400 bytes per 650 M CD >>5,452,595,200 bits per CD >> >> > > > >>46,160 pages >>92 reams >>59,062,500 bytes per ream >> >> > ^^^ >That's bytes per ream, not bits per ream. > >681MByte/CD / 59MByte/ream = 11.5 reams/CD > > >Pat > > I was looking for Fortran IV programs and got reading on the History of FORTRAN. In 1957 they could not punch out the 2,000 binary cards of FORTRAN II and had to go tape instead. Now that is about 72*12 bits per card ... you work out the math. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 11 22:19:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: <434BFEB3.3070301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, woodelf wrote: > >This font has been available for some time: > > > >http://www.searchfreefonts.com/archive/zip/teleb.zip > > > > > Umm where are the @ "#$[]<>= and back-arrow up-arrow characters? Oh, well, you need to press the FIGS key to get those. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 11 22:24:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? In-Reply-To: <434C0A8E.2080906@email.arizona.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Shawn Nock wrote: > Freeman Computer Museum for Sale... It's not a hoax, but if I have to read about this stupid sale one more time I'm going to puke. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Oct 11 22:39:22 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 23:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> Message-ID: <200510120346.XAA18650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Paper may actually not be totally out of the question. With decent >> printing technology you can get about 75dpi with fairly clear >> readability. > As we've flogged many times before, "Which printing technology"? Ink. Real ink, the kind that actually soaks into paper fibers. (On decently sized paper, too, so it doesn't fuzz out significantly.) You know, the sort of thing they use for printing quality books. Go find a copy of the Encylop?dia Britannica for an example. > Laser printer toner has characteristics that make it unsuitable (such > as the way it'll transfer from page to page when pressed tightly). > Ink jets are soluble. Dye sub? Wax transfer? It doesn't have to be anything currently available in a mass-market computer printer (which you didn't explicitly say, but all your examples are). > Not cheap, not easy, Nothing for storing that much data with anything like the durability ink-on-paper offers will be, I suspect. > not even reliable - and considering you'd need to develop new forms > of paper-reading equipment and software to retrieve it. New equipment? Hardly, not as long as some kind of decent-resolution digital photography is available. Software? Perhaps, but not very - I have a 300dpi scanner next to my monitor, and I believe I could cobble something together in no more than a few days to turn (scans of) such pages into a big array o' bits. (And from there, it would depend on the encoding algorithms, which is why I specifically mentioned documenting them on directly human readable pages.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 11 22:58:41 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:58:41 -0600 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510120346.XAA18650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> <200510120346.XAA18650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <434C89F1.9010309@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: >New equipment? Hardly, not as long as some kind of decent-resolution >digital photography is available. Software? Perhaps, but not very - I >have a 300dpi scanner next to my monitor, and I believe I could cobble >something together in no more than a few days to turn (scans of) such >pages into a big array o' bits. (And from there, it would depend on >the encoding algorithms, which is why I specifically mentioned >documenting them on directly human readable pages.) > > What about photograpic paper , the kind you print B&W photographs on? I still like the idea of 35mm film and some sort of holograph style of data encoding. Ben alias woodelf From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Oct 11 23:07:32 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 00:07:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > It's not a hoax, but if I have to read about this stupid sale one more > time I'm going to puke. This latest round of archiving talk is doing it to me. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 11 23:20:02 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:20:02 -0700 Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board Computers In-Reply-To: <200510120143.j9C1hw9v065712@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510120143.j9C1hw9v065712@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200510112120020947.07BEA4D1@10.0.0.252> On 10/11/2005 at 8:34 PM Gil Carrick wrote: >Sure, but my point was that it normally runs without one so that saying a >device requires secondary storage and a console to be considered as >containing an OS is not a definition that is very useful. I don't believe that's what I was saying. My definition of a "non-PC" PC stipulated that the device have sufficient I/O for some sort of secondary storage and the ability to drive a console, in addition to being able to host a more-or-less commodity OS. Thus, my microwave oven fails in that there's no way to add a console and no secondary storage. And I doubt that there's a commodity OS that would run on it. Same goes for my trackball--it's got a Microchip PIC in it, but there's just not enough of the other stuff there. So the Linksys router would satisfy the requirement--it can run a commodity OS (LInux), has secondary storage (Flash) and has sufficient I/O to drive a console (through the RJ-45) . I suspect that you can just telnet to 192.168.0.1 (or some other IP address) and get a login prompt. I could run CP/M 86 (or even MS-DOS) on my little FAX box--it's got the I/O and secondary storage. Maybe we should stipulate that the secondary storage is nonvolatile... Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Oct 11 23:19:36 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 23:19:36 -0500 Subject: ISA and derivitive non-PCs (was PCs that support only one floppy drive in H/W) Message-ID: <24ad757be95d4a47ad2f9811a28fd6b7@valleyimplants.com> In the almost-UNIX front, Apollo workstations were ISA based. SGI Indigo2 and some HP-9000 PA-RISC desktops run EISA, with the unrealized hope (same as PCI, really) that more hardware would work with them. Few companies wrote drivers, though From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 11 23:21:45 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051011164852.041e8218@mail> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, John Foust wrote: > My page also points to a reasonably good teleprinter font > but I see the link is broken (and it was discussed on this > list six years ago.) I see the font's artist has his own page now: > > http://www.zanzig.com/download/ > http://www.zanzig.com/download/fonts03.gif > > >This font has been available for some time: > >http://www.searchfreefonts.com/archive/zip/teleb.zip > >It's a pretty good rendition. > > And here's a link where you can see it: > > http://www.searchfreefonts.com/font-search.php?q=teleprinter > > Are they the same? It looks like it to me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 11 23:25:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <434C3D5B.8060707@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > How long do Mitsui Gold CD-R's last? We don't know yet. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 11 23:27:43 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:27:43 -0700 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <434C7F6E.2020103@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510111755.58730.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011191656.04a58670@mail> <200510112149.35153.pat@computer-refuge.org> <434C7F6E.2020103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200510112127430137.07C5AA5D@10.0.0.252> On 10/11/2005 at 9:13 PM woodelf wrote: >I was looking for Fortran IV programs and got reading on the History of >FORTRAN. >In 1957 they could not punch out the 2,000 binary cards of FORTRAN II >and had to go tape instead. >Now that is about 72*12 bits per card ... you work out the math. Huh? I've used a card-based 1401 FORTRAN II. Two decks--you read in the first deck, then your source program. An intermediate deck was punched. You then read in the second pass of the compiler, followed by the cards punched by the first pass. An object deck was punched. 2000 cards is about a box. Not a spectacular amount at all. Tape WAS easier, however. Cheers, Chuck From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 11 23:26:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510111538000158.068580E0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How about Hollerith cards made of thin sheets of irridium? The Oral Tradition seems to have served some cultures well :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 11 23:30:09 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:30:09 -0700 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <26c11a640510111755g1f85ddccw@mail.gmail.com> References: <0IO300ECWH9RGN63@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20051009100052.57496ce4.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510091014.31801.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20051009110030.6bb202c7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510112128.RAA16760@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <26c11a640510111755g1f85ddccw@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510112130090393.07C7E5A7@10.0.0.252> On 10/12/2005 at 1:55 AM Dan Williams wrote: >Just to complicate things more. I haven't taken one apart, but I was >thinking some of the older laptop floppy drives might not be so >integrated. You can get a pci-->pcmcia card for around ?15 here. Would >a pcmcia flopply drive fit the bill ? Dan, I don't think I've ever seen a 5.25" PCMCIA drive. Do they exist? There's actually not a huge amount of difference between the PCMCIA bus and ISA. IIRC, you can get PCMCIA-PC104 adapters and PC104 is very close to ISA. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 11 23:30:46 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <434C7F6E.2020103@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510111755.58730.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011191656.04a58670@mail> <200510112149.35153.pat@computer-refuge.org> <434C7F6E.2020103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051011212731.F52861@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, woodelf wrote: > I was looking for Fortran IV programs and got reading on the History of > FORTRAN. > In 1957 they could not punch out the 2,000 binary cards of FORTRAN II > and had to go tape instead. > Now that is about 72*12 bits per card ... you work out the math. "could not punch out 2,000 binary cards"???? I've punched many decks much larger than that. (DP of Office of Civil Rights, Space Sciences Data Center at GSFC) You CAN refill the supply and empty the output without stopping the punch. But,.. tape certainly is HANDY when you are talking about more than a box of cards. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 11 23:29:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? In-Reply-To: <006a01c5cec0$621c6d40$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > I've been urging him, unsuccessfully so far, to do that. Me too. I have no idea why he thinks someone is going to take it all in one fell swoop (especially considering the reserve). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 11 23:35:06 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E586B@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E586B@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <20051011213300.U52861@shell.lmi.net> > Back when small printers were hard to come by, there was at > least one technology that used a "paper' made of a black > layer on a paper substrate covered by a very thin layer of > aluminum. The printer burned through the aluminum, leaving > the black spots exposed. Oddly enough, this sounds like a > fiarly permanent process. Was the stuff called > "electrographic" paper? One of the first "cheap" printers from Radio Shack was "Electrostatic". The black showing through the metallic was high contrast, and not as heat sensitive as thermal. BUT,... crumple the paper and then re-flatten it. Might as well use an Etch-a-sketch. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 11 23:38:22 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <434C89F1.9010309@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> <200510120346.XAA18650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <434C89F1.9010309@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051011213610.C52861@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, woodelf wrote: > What about photograpic paper , the kind you print B&W photographs on? > I still like the idea of 35mm film and some sort of holograph style of data > encoding. Kodak has discontinued manufacturing of B&W photographic paper!!! And if you don't do an extraordinarily conscientious job of hypo (typically sodium thiosulphate) removal, it will discolor and fade. There are special procedures for "archival" processing; it is hard to find a commercial lab that will do it right. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 11 23:41:12 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051011213959.L52861@shell.lmi.net> > On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > How about Hollerith cards made of thin sheets of irridium? On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > The Oral Tradition seems to have served some cultures well :) NOTHING lasts as long as urban legends. Now, all that you need to do is to develop the steganography to imbed your data in them. ... and NOTHING travels as fast as bad news, ... From jhoger at pobox.com Tue Oct 11 23:48:03 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:48:03 -0700 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510120346.XAA18650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> <200510120346.XAA18650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1129092484.13382.17.camel@aragorn> Has anyone suggested stone tablets yet? My idea is self-propagating storage with a nice fat error correcting code like the one used on this project to record data to mini-dv tapes: http://dvbackup.sourceforge.net/ Add more error correcting code to taste. So maybe devote 50 meg of a CD or DVD to a mini linux distro like damn small linux that boots to a menu and can either replicate the OS and payload to another CD/DVD or ftp/http/scp/etc. the payload to another machine that you give it the IP address and login for. This would be usable as long as CD or DVD drives and PCs or PC emulators are around. It carries the code to replicate itself like a virus. Before CD/DVD drives become archaic you just boot it up and transfer it to another medium. Actually with emulators, .iso images themselves are bootable, so you could just rip the .iso file and transfer it to the medium du jour. One snafu is that for it to work you would want the error correcting code to also be applied to the self-replicating software. Otherwise you could end up with a payload and no (easy, and the key here is easy)way to unlock it. Have to look into bootable CDs and see how that works... -- John. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 12 00:17:19 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 23:17:19 -0600 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <20051011212731.F52861@shell.lmi.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510111755.58730.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011191656.04a58670@mail> <200510112149.35153.pat@computer-refuge.org> <434C7F6E.2020103@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051011212731.F52861@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <434C9C5F.1060101@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: >"could not punch out 2,000 binary cards"???? >I've punched many decks much larger than that. >(DP of Office of Civil Rights, Space Sciences Data Center at GSFC) > > > Well you can read it yourself. http://www.stanford.edu/group/mmdd/SiliconValley/Backus/backus.html >You CAN refill the supply >and empty the output without stopping the punch. > >But,.. >tape certainly is HANDY when you are talking about more than a box of >cards. > > Looking at all the restored old software , very little seems to have been kept in a vault like old movies by DEC or IBM or the other computer companies. I think this is reminding us something important, private people need to be able to have information that only the today M$ and Intel are keeping private to themselves. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 12 00:19:26 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 22:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <1129092484.13382.17.camel@aragorn> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> <200510120346.XAA18650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1129092484.13382.17.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <20051011221759.C54408@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > Has anyone suggested stone tablets yet? Yes, but nobody remembers how to read Stonehenge. > One snafu is that for it to work you would want the error correcting > code to also be applied to the self-replicating software. Otherwise you > could end up with a payload and no (easy, and the key here is easy)way > to unlock it. Have to look into bootable CDs and see how that works... self replicating data storage,... DNA perhaps? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 12 00:29:20 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 23:29:20 -0600 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <20051011221759.C54408@shell.lmi.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> <200510120346.XAA18650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1129092484.13382.17.camel@aragorn> <20051011221759.C54408@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <434C9F30.6090509@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote > >Yes, but nobody remembers how to read Stonehenge. > > There is nothing there to READ. Just a big analog? computer to calculate the seasons and stuff with the sun and moon. The problem is the program works only for where stonehenge is today ... It is the lack of doc's that kill ya. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 12 00:32:00 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 23:32:00 -0600 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <20051011221759.C54408@shell.lmi.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> <200510120346.XAA18650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1129092484.13382.17.camel@aragorn> <20051011221759.C54408@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <434C9FD0.1010302@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: >self replicating data storage,... DNA perhaps? > > That is when you merge computers and people, still Si-Fi stuff at the moment. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 12 00:44:20 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 22:44:20 -0700 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <434C9C5F.1060101@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510111755.58730.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011191656.04a58670@mail> <200510112149.35153.pat@computer-refuge.org> <434C7F6E.2020103@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051011212731.F52861@shell.lmi.net> <434C9C5F.1060101@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200510112244200991.080BD204@10.0.0.252> Re: cards and FORTRAN II. When it comes to stuff like FORTRAN II, the question comes up: "Whose FORTRAN II?" There were lots and lots of variants. I seem to recall that 7090 FMS II FORTRAN had its share of strange things, like punching a "D" in column 1 to get double-precision arithmetic. Yet the compiler-on-cards hung around for quite a while. The 1620 certainly had it--and I think a card-based FORTRAN was available for the 360/20, although it may have been something like USA Basic FORTRAN. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 12 00:50:46 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 22:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <434C9C5F.1060101@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510111755.58730.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011191656.04a58670@mail> <200510112149.35153.pat@computer-refuge.org> <434C7F6E.2020103@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051011212731.F52861@shell.lmi.net> <434C9C5F.1060101@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051011223935.L54408@shell.lmi.net> > > > In 1957 they could not punch out the 2,000 binary cards of FORTRAN II > > > and had to go tape instead. > > > Now that is about 72*12 bits per card ... you work out the math. > >"could not punch out 2,000 binary cards"???? > >I've punched many decks much larger than that. > >(DP of Office of Civil Rights, Space Sciences Data Center at GSFC) On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, woodelf wrote: > Well you can read it yourself. > http://www.stanford.edu/group/mmdd/SiliconValley/Backus/backus.html Thank you for the reference It doesn't really say that they "could not" punch over 2,000 cards; it says that THEY were having a lot of errors, and WANTED a faster, more reliable method. In fact, it explicitly says that they DID punch and distribute some decks. Ten years later, when I was doing EAM and punched card data processing with 360s with FORTRAN IV, WATFOR, and even PDQ FORTRAN on 1620, the punches were quite a bit more reliable. and multi-box decks were not uncommon. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 12:46:34 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 10:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board Computers Message-ID: <20051011174634.10321.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> >Can't help with the evaluation board, but the mention >of the 80186 reminds me of a system I worked on >(Durango Poppy) using one (an added 80286 was an >option if you wanted to run Unix). Interesting. Wish there was some info on that. >It's a great chip for its time with DMA done the >right way and lots of I/O pins. Unfortunately, any >programs that play with PC hardware are doomed to >failure. Right. Those aspects of typical pc hardware that had been integrated on the chip. Seemingly though, the Tandy 2000 ignored at least some of the extra facilities of the 80186 and simply utilized it as a fast 8086. That board has one of the highest chip counts I've ever seen. But it's also true that video and much else was integrated. >I've got a little FAX receiver box that was designed >to fit between a printer and a PC and would either >print FAXen as received or store them on a DOS->formatted 1.44MB floppy drive that was part of the >unit. It uses an 80C188 and I recall looking at the >27C256 BIOS and noting that it implemented many of >the PC BIOS calls, particularly those for diskette >I/O. It has 256K of RAM. The thing isn't much >bigger than a floppy drive and is powered by a wall >wart. It'd make a neat little CP/M-86 system if I >ever got around to programming it. I'd guess the bios was bought, or at least parts of it, from a supplier of such (AMI, Phoenix...). >But this brings up a question--how many early non-PC >PC's are there wandering around? IOW, things that >have the ability to run a full operating system, but >aren't PC's per se. My DSL model is certainly one-->runs Linux (just telnet to it and you get a login). I opened up a color IBM terminal years ago, mainly because I wanted to see if the monitor could be utilized as a vga (apparently had analog inputs, and only r,g,b, and sync lines). Phor phun. 3179 is the # sticking in my head, which might correspond to the model number. But then again it might not. I never actually bothered, but upon cursory observation of the logic board - 8088 based - I was amazed how much "pc stuph" was present. In other words most of the makings of a pc/xt motherboard were present as I recall. Of course there were no provision for disk drives and whatnot, and may not even have had a bios as we know it. I'd like to get another one. BYTE tried to deal with a similar issue issue years ago ~'85 in one of their special issues. They wanted a baseline for IBM compatibility. As loopy as it sounds, the Zenith Z-100 was elected a basis by which all others were compared. Funny that an incompatible was used to judge all the other compatibles. >I'm not sure if that counts, though. It may well not >be running Linux >on anything that you would recognise as PC hardware. >It might not have >a BIOS as such, even. Someone told me that MINIX didn't deal with the bios at all. What about Linux? >How about a TIVO or an MP3 player? Certainly most >video game boxes have the necessary resources (I seem >to recall a web site dedicated to getting early >Xboxes running Linux--it wasn't as simply as you'd >think). No, but they figured out a way of doing it w/o cracking the box. There was a couple of games with bugs that upon crashing (intentionally) made a back door available. You need some sort of usb device (a thumb drive was often utilized). Blah blah blah. I'm going there one of these days. I'm just hoping the release of the 360 brings down the price of the original ;). I wrinkled my nose when I found out a sort of special distro was needed, but I guess the hardware differed, however slightly, enough from a vanilla pc to warrant it. There's a kewell book called "Hacking the Xbox" that goes into different aspects of reverse engineering. Doesn't deal with installing Linux too much though. The TIVO's I looked at didn't use intel procs. I want to say PowerPC, but it might even be different from that. And I don't think any (other) game consoles used an 80x86. The Genesis used the 68000 I know. Show me wrong if I'm wrong. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 12 01:10:29 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 23:10:29 -0700 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <20051011223935.L54408@shell.lmi.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510111755.58730.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011191656.04a58670@mail> <200510112149.35153.pat@computer-refuge.org> <434C7F6E.2020103@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051011212731.F52861@shell.lmi.net> <434C9C5F.1060101@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051011223935.L54408@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510112310290059.0823BF09@10.0.0.252> On 10/11/2005 at 10:50 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >It doesn't really say that they "could not" punch over 2,000 cards; >it says that THEY were having a lot of errors, and WANTED a >faster, more reliable method. In fact, it explicitly says that they >DID punch and distribute some decks. I remember that even the newer punches would warm up, particularly when binary decks were being produced and start having problems. This was true even on the punch on the CDC 6600, which was the last system with a punch that I used (or maybe noticed that had one). Cheers, Chuck From George.Wallace at po.state.ct.us Tue Oct 11 12:42:38 2005 From: George.Wallace at po.state.ct.us (Wallace, George F.) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:42:38 -0400 Subject: 9-track round-reel tapes available Message-ID: Any chance that these tapes are still available? Yea, somebody is still using them !! I don't know about coming to Nebraska but we'll pay the shipping if they're in decent shape. Thanks, George Wallace CONNDOT From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Tue Oct 11 20:19:35 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:19:35 -0400 Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? In-Reply-To: <20051011191218.78eb048a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200510120129.j9C1TH6Y065498@keith.ezwind.net> I was once told by a very wise man, Collectors build collections and dealers break them up so that other collectors can continue to build their collections, which most likely will be broken up and redistributed many times over time. It is an endless circle ..... Bob Bradlee On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:12:18 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: >On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:06:11 -0700 (PDT) >steven stengel wrote: >> Maybe he should split it up a little - 3 tons of >> computers is a lot for anyone to take... >> >> >Perhaps his 'ego' is wrapped up in it remaining a collection. It isn't >unusual for somebody to spend a lifetime putting together what they >consider 'the ultimate collecton' and despairing at the idea of it being >split apart into fragments, undoing the thing the collector worked long >and hard to accomplish. It isn't unusual for collectors of various >things to want to bestow them, complete, to an institution that will >keep it together as a collection. From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Tue Oct 11 21:39:28 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 22:39:28 -0400 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E586B@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200510120249.j9C2n9JZ066697@keith.ezwind.net> Some where around the cave I have a timex/sincair printer my dad brought back from england that used the aluminized paper. It never got FCC approval because as the aluminized paper came out as it printed it became a very slow sweep wide band spark gap transmitter that blew any chance of getting type acceptance here in the states. It connected to the back of a timex 1000. I have a second example in a rusrack chart recorder where a sharp point scratched or more like pecked the surface away without using a spark. It did meet the type acceptance :) Bob Bradlee On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 22:01:16 -0400, James Fogg wrote: >> Back when small printers were hard to come by, there was at >> least one technology that used a "paper' made of a black >> layer on a paper substrate covered by a very thin layer of >> aluminum. The printer burned through the aluminum, leaving >> the black spots exposed. Oddly enough, this sounds like a >> fiarly permanent process. Was the stuff called >> "electrographic" paper? >This might be Readex Microprint technology. I've never seen an example >of Readex output, although the company is a few miles from me and used >to be a microfiche customer. I do know they got significant storage >reduction compared to paper. From jhoger at pobox.com Wed Oct 12 01:45:40 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 23:45:40 -0700 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <20051011221759.C54408@shell.lmi.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> <200510120346.XAA18650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1129092484.13382.17.camel@aragorn> <20051011221759.C54408@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1129099540.13382.35.camel@aragorn> On Tue, 2005-10-11 at 22:19 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > > Has anyone suggested stone tablets yet? > > Yes, but nobody remembers how to read Stonehenge. > > > One snafu is that for it to work you would want the error correcting > > code to also be applied to the self-replicating software. Otherwise you > > could end up with a payload and no (easy, and the key here is easy)way > > to unlock it. Have to look into bootable CDs and see how that works... > > self replicating data storage,... DNA perhaps? > > Sort of. AFAIK DNA does not self replicate, that is if there is some DNA laying around it won't just start making copies of itself. There is a lot of supporting machinery in a cell that needs to be in place. Some things in the cell aren't even coded for in the main DNA like mitochondria. So maybe the more accurate analogy would be a cell, with the DNA as payload but with the payload containing information and description for making all necessary machinery to decode the data and make copies. Cell/DNA analogy only goes so far, since although it is data, bit errors are tolerated and the organism deals with it or dies. In an engineered system no data loss is permitted (though error correction is OK). The issue I was seeing was that there seems to be a requirement for some bootstrap code that is never corrupted. This bad since the whole point of this is that we trying to tolerate errors by adding error correcting codes. Is it possible to make executable code which is resistant to bit errors? Say just assume X86... is it possible to write some minimal bootstrap code that can tolerate errors in itself, but run long enough w/out crashing the machine to decode a secondary boot loader that is padded with error correcting code? That initial bootstrap code can be inefficient as hell... -- John. From wayne.smith at charter.net Wed Oct 12 01:49:35 2005 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 23:49:35 -0700 Subject: System 23 Data Master information In-Reply-To: <200510101700.j9AH04c8092272@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003001c5cef9$1f56fbe0$6501a8c0@Wayne> There were two varieties of System 23/Datamaster: (i) the all-in-one model - the frequently seen 5322; and (ii) the seldom seen tower model, the 5324. The 5324 came in three or four pieces: a CPU unit, with our without floppy drive, a monitor, a keyboard and external floppy drive unit (if the CPU unit lacked a floppy drive). Both units could also be coupled with a 5347 hard drive, which came in either 23 or 37 MB sizes housed in a heavy (110 lb.) cabinet. I have never owned a complete 5324, but I once had a monitor unit from the 5324 from which I removed the display module to replace a burned out one in my 5322, which was basically the same except for the connector. I displayed my 5322 at VCF 5 and 6. (http://www.vintage.org/pictures/VCF%206.0%20-%20Wayne%20Smith%20Exhibit .jpg) Although I don't have a 5324, I have full documentation on it, the necessary disks to get it to work, etc. The yellow user binders that Al Kossow sent you the pictures of were essentially the same for the 5322 and 5324 except that Volume 1 varied slightly depending on which unit you owned. I have both versions. -W > Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 07:45:16 -0500 > From: Shannon Spurling > Subject: System 23 Data Master information > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Message-ID: <434910DC.9020206 at centurytel.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hi, I'm new to the list, but not new to classic computers. > I picked up a rare beast (Apparently) years ago when I bought > a System > 23 tower system at a thrift shop years ago, and it's been > sitting in my > basement for a few years after a rough life in makeshift > storage. I want > to see if I can get this thing cleaned up and running, but there's no > system 23 docs, much less even any acknowledgment of there being a > tower format for that system. Any help would be appreciated, but > schematics would be the best. > > Thanks From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Wed Oct 12 03:03:45 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:03:45 +1300 Subject: Archival storage-electrosensitive paper References: <200510120249.j9C2n9JZ066697@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <0d0b01c5cf03$785057f0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> The HP 9120 printer uses electrosensitive paper comprising a black polyvinyl alcohol layer on the base paper with an aluminium layer over that and a top layer of zinc oxide (conductive) plus organic binder. The writing head had a seven high array of tungsten stylii that applied current pulses to the paper and vaporised the thin aluminium layer, exposing the black polyvinyl alcohol layer underneath. Still have many boxes of the paper here, the roll is about three inches or so wide. DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/128 - Release Date: 10/10/2005 From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 03:17:32 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:17:32 +0100 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <200510112130090393.07C7E5A7@10.0.0.252> References: <0IO300ECWH9RGN63@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20051009100052.57496ce4.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510091014.31801.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20051009110030.6bb202c7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510112128.RAA16760@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <26c11a640510111755g1f85ddccw@mail.gmail.com> <200510112130090393.07C7E5A7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <26c11a640510120117y25c227f5w@mail.gmail.com> > Dan, I don't think I've ever seen a 5.25" PCMCIA drive. Do they exist? There's actually not a huge amount of difference between the PCMCIA bus and ISA. IIRC, you can get PCMCIA-PC104 adapters and PC104 is very close to ISA. > > Cheers, > Chuck > These guys made one ten years ago, there might be some around. http://www.accurite.com/PR-PC.html Dan From shirsch at adelphia.net Wed Oct 12 06:47:14 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 07:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <200510110844040154.050A8749@10.0.0.252> References: <200510080825.j988PgPn047793@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> <6.2.5.4.2.20051009073434.032ebda0@boff-net.dhs.org> <434ACD84.4030904@mdrconsult.com> <434BBD2A.50207@gmail.com> <200510110844040154.050A8749@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 10/11/2005 at 9:24 AM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > >How about SCSI floppy drives? > > The problem with SCSI floppies is essentially the same--addressing is on > a sector number basis, not CHS. So the drives have limited format > recognition capabilities. I've never seen a 5.25' SCSI floppy, though > at one time SMS marketed a SCSI-to-FDC conversion board. I'm sitting here looking at a TEAC FD-55GFR 5.25" floppy drive with a TEAC-branded SCSI daughterboard mounted on it. Picked this thing up for a buck at a flea market and don't know much about it. Anyone else familiar with it? I'm not even sure if this is a HD drive. Steve From cbajpai at comcast.net Wed Oct 12 07:04:02 2005 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:04:02 -0400 Subject: Need a driver: Intel PCMCIA Flash card In-Reply-To: <200510112007260715.5450E0E1@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200510121213.j9CCDtF2075771@keith.ezwind.net> Look for CardSoft / CardWizard from Systemsoft. It should include FFS drivers if I'm not mistaken to write to this card. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Lane Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 11:07 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Need a driver: Intel PCMCIA Flash card Fellow classic'ers, I've been all over Intel's site and Google, and have come up empty. I have here a 4MB PCMCIA 'FLASH' card with Intel's name and colors on it. I know it has a standard MS-DOS filesystem on it, and I'm trying to find a driver to read the thing under Windows 2000 Pro. I'll resort to FreeBSD if I have to, but I would prefer otherwise. I've tried the current version of SystemSoft's CardWizard Pro with no luck. Ideas? Declarations? Speeches about how looney the whole idea is? Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 12 07:06:10 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:06:10 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IO8008D6XKGVR80@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: Dan Williams > Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:17:32 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Dan, I don't think I've ever seen a 5.25" PCMCIA drive. Do they exist? There's actually not a huge amount of difference between the PCMCIA bus and ISA. IIRC, you can get PCMCIA-PC104 adapters and PC104 is very close to ISA. >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> >These guys made one ten years ago, there might be some around. > >http://www.accurite.com/PR-PC.html > >Dan On the whole I prefer my solution. A simple 486/66 on a board that doesnt have any "chip set" and ISA cards that are easy to find in junkers. Convenient, you bet. The board board I selected uses PS2 keyboard and mouse. I have two spare boards and the nicads have been removed to prevent leakage. Thse have done well for floppy futzing from any 5.25 to any 3.5" (excluding the near unseen 2.88). Another good choice is the 4" tall Dell Pizza boxes such as the 425/np though 466/np. Theses are small, use PS2 connectors for keyboard and mouse and the board supports most floppies (x2), IDE disks to 500mb and S3 VGA video. There is room enough to add a CDrom or 5.25 floppy. A third candidate just a shade larger than the Dell pizza boxes is a AT&T Golbalist 620. That's a P100 box with three ISA or PCI slots, mouse, and keyboard are PS2, video is VGA and room for a IDE disk, CDrom and a 3.5 floppy inside. Beats wailing ones head against the wall with trying to retrofit current solutions. Also solves the how to reuse older hardware that exists for free. Allison From fryers at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 07:14:16 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:14:16 +0100 Subject: Need a driver: Intel PCMCIA Flash card In-Reply-To: <200510112007260715.5450E0E1@192.168.42.129> References: <200510112007260715.5450E0E1@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: All, On 10/12/05, Bruce Lane wrote: > > I've been all over Intel's site and Google, and have come up empty. > > I have here a 4MB PCMCIA 'FLASH' card with Intel's name and colors on it. I know it has a standard MS-DOS filesystem on it, and I'm trying to find a driver to read the thing under Windows 2000 Pro. > > I'll resort to FreeBSD if I have to, but I would prefer otherwise. I've tried the current version of SystemSoft's CardWizard Pro with no luck. > > Ideas? Declarations? Speeches about how looney the whole idea is? I am guessing, by looking at the size of the card, this is a Type II card. Most PCMCIA card readers fitted to laptops and PCs will only read Type III PCMCIA memory cards. Do you know what wrote the filesystem on the card? Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Wed Oct 12 07:44:31 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 14:44:31 +0200 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware References: <200510080825.j988PgPn047793@dewey.classiccmp.org><20051008142541.5783793a@venice.mumblefrotz.org><6.2.5.4.2.20051009073434.032ebda0@boff-net.dhs.org><434ACD84.4030904@mdrconsult.com><434BBD2A.50207@gmail.com> <200510110844040154.050A8749@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <000801c5cf2a$b10f8e90$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- Fra: "Steven N. Hirsch" > > I'm sitting here looking at a TEAC FD-55GFR 5.25" floppy drive with a > TEAC-branded SCSI daughterboard mounted on it. Picked this thing up for a > buck at a flea market and don't know much about it. Anyone else familiar > with it? I'm not even sure if this is a HD drive. > GFR is the 1.2M (HD) drive Nico From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 08:05:01 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:05:01 -0400 Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board Computers In-Reply-To: <200510112120020947.07BEA4D1@10.0.0.252> References: <200510120143.j9C1hw9v065712@keith.ezwind.net> <200510112120020947.07BEA4D1@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 10/12/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/11/2005 at 8:34 PM Gil Carrick wrote: > > >Sure, but my point was that it normally runs without one so that saying a > >device requires secondary storage and a console to be considered as > >containing an OS is not a definition that is very useful. > > I don't believe that's what I was saying. My definition of a "non-PC" PC stipulated that the device have sufficient I/O for some sort of secondary storage and the ability to drive a console, in addition to being able to host a more-or-less commodity OS. Then my MSCP SCSI controller is a non-PC PC. It has UART to connect to a terminal. It has SCSI storage. It has ROM and RAM. It is lacking an OS but I believe FreeDOS can be ported. vax, 9000 From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Oct 12 08:23:35 2005 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:23:35 +0200 (MEST) Subject: Bendix Guidance Computer Message-ID: <26390.1129123415@www54.gmx.net> Hi everybody! Firstly, if anybody tried contacting me in the last month, please forgive me for being absent. I'm still catching up on my e-mail backlog since I had a math exam on 10th of October that was quite important to prepare for. Next, we've received quite an interesting donation at the University Museum yesterday: what looks like an electromechanical guidance system for a missile. A few photos are on http://www.iser.uni-erlangen.de/anzeigen.php?inventarnummer=I1062 (click on small one for bigger version, click "Weitere Infos" (further information) for two pictures of the innards (front and back)). I'm asking here because we'd like to acquire some background information on this unit, what type of missile it came from and so on. According to its former owner, it was purchased from a scrapper in the mid-70s. A small metal nameplate above the connectors reads: | U.S. | Guidance Computer | G&C | | PART NO.10586600-39 |MOD NO.4 | | SER NO. 614 |WT. 55.75 | | MFD BY THE BENDIX CORP E-P DIV | | CONTR.NO.DA-01-021-AMC-11344 Z | | ARMY MISSILE COMMAND | Below that is a sticker reading "SA PROGRAM" with four boxes, the first one stamped "T2". The small dial between the connectors (two of which are covered with adhesive tape) is an hours run meter with two hands, indicating a run time of 157 hours. Next to that is a sticker with "Pueblo Army Depot" and a large "R" in a box. There is also a material tag of the Bundeswehr (German armed forces) stuck onto one lid. On the inside, there are eight (!!) subassemblies of mechanical calculating gear, as follows: CR/SA DISPLACEMENT MODULE, 2x CR/SA VELOCITY MODULE, 2x PROGRAM GEN. MODULE SR VELOCITY MODULE SR INTEGRATOR MODULE SR DIPLACEMENT MODULE. The last three are linked via gear trains, the first five only have electric I/O. There are lots of Autosyn Transmitters, precision potentiometers, switches, small relays and motors on those! As far as electronics go, we have: SERVO AMPLIFIER MODULE 5x INT MOD & PREAMP MODULE 2x CUTOFF NULL DET. MODULE ROLL ARMING MODULE ELECTRICAL MODULE VOLTAGE MONITORING MODULE. There was no documentation whatsoever with it, so if it is declassified by now (I hope so), any information (or pointer to) is welcome. Yours sincerely, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Lust, ein paar Euro nebenbei zu verdienen? Ohne Kosten, ohne Risiko! Satte Provisionen f?r GMX Partner: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/partner From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 12 09:36:10 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:36:10 +0100 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434D1F5A.5050501@yahoo.co.uk> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >>How about Hollerith cards made of thin sheets of irridium? > > > The Oral Tradition seems to have served some cultures well :) Heck, beam your data into space. Then wait for FTL space travel to be developed so that you can overtake it and get it back again :) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 12 09:37:25 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:37:25 +0100 Subject: Archiving the Freeman Computer Museum Message-ID: <434D1FA5.1070405@yahoo.co.uk> Sorry... just wanted to make Sellam and William D puke... ;) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 12 09:59:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 10:59:36 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IO900GW75LH80B0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: "Nico de Jong" > Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 14:44:31 +0200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- >Fra: "Steven N. Hirsch" >> >> I'm sitting here looking at a TEAC FD-55GFR 5.25" floppy drive with a >> TEAC-branded SCSI daughterboard mounted on it. Picked this thing up for a >> buck at a flea market and don't know much about it. Anyone else familiar >> with it? I'm not even sure if this is a HD drive. >> >GFR is the 1.2M (HD) drive >Nico That is way to terse an answer. The board _may_ have been a comonent in a DEC system (microVAX3100 series) as an RX33 drive via SCSI. The FD55GFR Floppy disk drive is a 5.25 dual speed, two sided drive capable of PC 1.2mb mode as well as operation at all lower density 96tpi modes and if double stepped will reliabily read 48tpi formats both single and double sided. This type drive in the nonPC world was also called DSQD(Double Sided Quad Density for up to 800kb) or DSHD (Double Sided High Density for up to 1.2b) While used in PC based system it also appeared in Digital in both their VAXmate, DECmateIII, PDP-11 and microVAX (3100 series) systems as RX33. Somebody should archive that. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 12 10:23:23 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:23:23 -0600 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <1129099540.13382.35.camel@aragorn> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> <200510120346.XAA18650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1129092484.13382.17.camel@aragorn> <20051011221759.C54408@shell.lmi.net> <1129099540.13382.35.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <434D2A6B.90601@jetnet.ab.ca> John R. Hogerhuis wrote: >Is it possible to make executable code which is resistant to bit errors? >Say just assume X86... is it possible to write some minimal bootstrap >code that can tolerate errors in itself, but run long enough w/out >crashing the machine to decode a secondary boot loader that is padded >with error correcting code? That initial bootstrap code can be >inefficient as hell... > > > It is not bit errors that is the problem -- It is all the windows crappy hardware. Before windows you only had a few real I/O devices -- broken serial port, broken printer port, crummy Floppy , some custiom BIOS Hard Drives and a few other HD types. Now look at all the GUI stuff you need just to boot.. >-- John. > > PS -- Is computer controled RNA by a sythnetic ORGANIC computer software software or hardware? The X-files Cell type :) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Oct 12 10:25:03 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:25:03 +0000 Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: <200510112134.RAA16796@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200510112134.RAA16796@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <434D2ACF.1070209@gjcp.net> der Mouse wrote: >>I've never heard of anybody making more than double-sided PCBs at >>home (I would love to be proved wrong!). > > > I can't *prove* you wrong. But I've spoken with someone who claimed to > have done it, and when I started asking questions, talked a good enough > line that I found it believable. As she described it, you need > epoxy/fibreglass mix, which you cast a thin sheet of. You then sand it > smooth, copper-plate it, and etch. Slap on another coat of epoxy and > fibreglass, let it cure, sand it smooth, copper-plate, and etch. > Lather, rinse, repeat. > > The hard part is of course quality control (and plated-through vias, > which you can get somewhere with by drilling holes before doing the > last copper-plating). And registration of the layers. But with > patience and attention to detail...after all, anyone doing this is > considering time to be worth a great deal less than money, or the job > would simply be shipped off to a commercial pcb fab house. :) It's the sort of thing I can see our Mr Duell doing though. Gordon. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Oct 12 10:31:31 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 11:31:31 -0400 Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434D2C53.5040205@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Shawn Nock wrote: > > >>Freeman Computer Museum for Sale... > > > It's not a hoax, but if I have to read about this stupid sale one more > time I'm going to puke. You tempt me, Sellam.... ;) Doc From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 11:13:17 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:13:17 +0100 Subject: Didn't we decide this was a hoax? In-Reply-To: <434D2C53.5040205@mdrconsult.com> References: <434D2C53.5040205@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640510120913u6a66a25di@mail.gmail.com> On 12/10/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Shawn Nock wrote: > > > > > >>Freeman Computer Museum for Sale... > > > > > > It's not a hoax, but if I have to read about this stupid sale one more > > time I'm going to puke. > > You tempt me, Sellam.... > > ;) > > > Doc > I was thinking STUPID SALE STUPID SALE STUPID SALE STUPID SALE ; Dan From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Oct 12 11:21:38 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:21:38 -0400 Subject: PCI Floppy controller wanted In-Reply-To: <200510121526.j9CFQfcU020469@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200510121621.j9CGLSXW025508@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Ok, anyone know where I can get a PCI floppy controller that will work on a modern PC (Pentium 4 with Hyperthreading)? The Asus P4T533 only supports a single floppy drive (it's sister board, the P4T533-C, supported two). Barry Watzman Watzman at neo.rr.com From RMeenaks at olf.com Wed Oct 12 12:19:50 2005 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:19:50 -0400 Subject: PCI Floppy controller wanted Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557830F15@cpexchange.olf.com> maybe this can help: http://www.jschoenfeld.de/products/cwmk3_e.htm Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Barry Watzman > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 12:22 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: PCI Floppy controller wanted > > > Ok, anyone know where I can get a PCI floppy controller that > will work on a modern PC (Pentium 4 with Hyperthreading)? > The Asus P4T533 only supports a single floppy drive (it's > sister board, the P4T533-C, supported two). > > Barry Watzman > Watzman at neo.rr.com > > > > From RMeenaks at olf.com Wed Oct 12 12:22:35 2005 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:22:35 -0400 Subject: PCI Floppy controller wanted Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557830F16@cpexchange.olf.com> And here: http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/Web_store/web_store.cgi?page=catalog /hardware/accelerators/catweaselmkiv.html&cart_id=5987695_891 Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ram > Meenakshisundaram > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 1:20 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: PCI Floppy controller wanted > > > maybe this can help: > > http://www.jschoenfeld.de/products/cwmk3_e.htm > > > Ram > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Barry Watzman > > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 12:22 PM > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Subject: PCI Floppy controller wanted > > > > > > Ok, anyone know where I can get a PCI floppy controller that > > will work on a modern PC (Pentium 4 with Hyperthreading)? > > The Asus P4T533 only supports a single floppy drive (it's > > sister board, the P4T533-C, supported two). > > > > Barry Watzman > > Watzman at neo.rr.com > > > > > > > > > > From dogas at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 12 13:28:20 2005 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (dogas at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 14:28:20 -0400 Subject: OT && !OT Apple Warning Message-ID: <20051012182820.ZEXU18698.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Its been PowerPC season down here. First, found and have been playing AIX on that IBM RS/6000 520, and then a couple of more recent Macs appeared, a sweet 700mhz g4 imac lamp/flatpanel model with OSX Jaguar CDs for almost nothing. Been enjoying OSX. too Then the other day I got a 350mhz slot-loading g3 all-in one imac. OS 9.1 was screwed up a little and the CDROM drive wasnt working, just spitting CDs back out. Big pause too on startup. I finally got OS 9.0 to boot and reinstall from an attached USB cdrom. And then I figured what the hell, and proceeded to install OSX/Jag on the g3... WARNING! Don't do that without updating the computer's firmware first! Too late for me. It highly screwed up the computer (pram/analog video settings/black screened) http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbart=06973 ...has a good article on it, but I'm trying something different... The logic board on the G3 doesn't have the VGA connector, but I have a junk imac logic board with the VGA port.. It was a good enough excuse to break out the blow torch and tonight I'll solder it onto my 350mhz board, hoping to get maybe at least get the 'alternate' video instead of just the imac's "Black Screen of Death" OS9.0 might still be in there but I think I still need a OS 9.2.2 CD (or a dmg) too and some way to genate a bootable HD with new firmware, externally. Anyone want to trade and get a nice MAC 0S 7.0 floppy package for a 9.2.2 CD? (open to other trades too) I've got the g4 imac and a beige g3 somewhere still, I hope, to work on the imac's HD if needed, but I sure could use some apple help. I bet many of us here will begin seeing some of these newer macs in our searches for the older stuff, watch out.... UPDATE FIRMWARE BEFORE INSTALLING OSX Dammit, I'm still mad that Apple's OS install can so f$&&ht up their own semi-current machine... Apple should never again be able to bitch about anything Microsoft... ;) - Mike: dogas at bellsouth.net From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 12 15:01:37 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:01:37 -0400 Subject: OT && !OT Apple Warning References: <20051012182820.ZEXU18698.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <003801c5cf67$c16aa4e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> similar situation here obtaining Macs. incr TOPIC Can OS9 or OSX CD's be obtained cheaply yet? > Dammit, I'm still mad that Apple's OS install can so f$&&ht up their own > semi-current machine... Apple should never again be able to bitch about > anything Microsoft... incr TOPIC I was playing around with the Open Firmware monitor blindly once and got the feeling that it could Easily modify the first few bytes, EG if you typed in a few hexadecimal digits and hit return. Maybe not, but it turns out that Apple does put out some really nice Tech guides. Open Firmware parts I, II and III : http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1061.html http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1062.html http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1044.html John A. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Oct 12 15:11:22 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:11:22 -0400 Subject: OT && !OT Apple Warning References: <20051012182820.ZEXU18698.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <003801c5cf67$c16aa4e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <003401c5cf69$269e9550$0500fea9@game> Older versions of OSX go fairly cheap on the Low End Mac Swaplist (email list). http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/swap.html See above link for details. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 4:01 PM Subject: Re: OT && !OT Apple Warning > similar situation here obtaining Macs. > > incr TOPIC > Can OS9 or OSX CD's be obtained cheaply yet? > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 12 15:19:19 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <0IO900GW75LH80B0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IO900GW75LH80B0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051012131549.T81740@shell.lmi.net> > >> I'm sitting here looking at a TEAC FD-55GFR 5.25" floppy drive with a > >> TEAC-branded SCSI daughterboard mounted on it. Picked this thing up for a > >> buck at a flea market and don't know much about it. Anyone else familiar > >> with it? I'm not even sure if this is a HD drive. > >> > >GFR is the 1.2M (HD) drive > >Nico > On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > That is way to terse an answer. Except that it is less than a week since the last thread about what a GFR is: Subject: Re: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 12 15:23:44 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:23:44 -0700 Subject: Restoring broken plastic Message-ID: <200510121323440895.0B30F670@10.0.0.252> I'm looking at a couple of old tape drives that have severe front panel damage. Parts of each are broken off into many small pieces. I don't know what polymer was used, but it does seem to use a large amount of filler in proportion to resin (i.e., there's not much strength to this stuff--it doesn't break with a sharp "snap", but seems to fracture like a damp cracker). What adhesive is recommended for repairing these items? Cyanoacrylate (super glue)? Polyurethane (Pro bond)? Something else? A solvent cement is out of the question, I think. Would reinforcement wtih glass cloth be an option to strengthen things? Suggestions are most welcome. Cheers, Chuck From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Oct 12 15:37:15 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 05 20:37:15 GMT Subject: Looking for ancient FreeBSD Message-ID: <0510122037.AA03904@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, This is almost Classic - I'm looking for a place to download an old version of FreeBSD, specifically the last release of the 2.2.x branch, which I think was 2.2.8. However, it seems to have totally vanished off the net, including of course ftp.FreeBSD.ORG, apparently removed by the dark forces of the evil reptilian conspiracy who want to force everyone to run the modern crap. Has anyone saved a copy of the FreeBSD 2.2.8 distribution or some nearby version? TIA, MS From emu at ecubics.com Wed Oct 12 15:48:02 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 14:48:02 -0600 Subject: Looking for ancient FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <0510122037.AA03904@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0510122037.AA03904@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <434D7682.8090208@ecubics.com> Michael Sokolov wrote: > Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, > > This is almost Classic - I'm looking for a place to download an old > version of FreeBSD, specifically the last release of the 2.2.x branch, > which I think was 2.2.8. However, it seems to have totally vanished off > the net, including of course ftp.FreeBSD.ORG, apparently removed by the > dark forces of the evil reptilian conspiracy who want to force everyone > to run the modern crap. Has anyone saved a copy of the FreeBSD 2.2.8 > distribution or some nearby version? TIA, I know it is evil too, but did you try to check it out from the CVS ? ;-) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Oct 12 15:53:10 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 05 20:53:10 GMT Subject: Looking for ancient FreeBSD Message-ID: <0510122053.AA03946@ivan.Harhan.ORG> e.stiebler wrote: > I know it is evil too, but did you try to check it out from the CVS ? That would give me just the source and not an installable distribution. I actually want to install it on a pee sea. MS From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Oct 12 15:53:35 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:53:35 -0400 Subject: Looking for ancient FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:37:15 GMT." <0510122037.AA03904@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200510122053.j9CKrZXo019858@mwave.heeltoe.com> Michael Sokolov wrote: > >This is almost Classic - I'm looking for a place to download an old >version of FreeBSD, specifically the last release of the 2.2.x branch, ... just curious, do any of these fit the bill? http://ftp.csie.chu.edu.tw/FreeBSD/ISO-IMAGES-i386/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Oct 12 16:43:04 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:43:04 +0200 Subject: ISA and derivitive non-PCs (was PCs that support only one floppy drive in H/W) In-Reply-To: <24ad757be95d4a47ad2f9811a28fd6b7@valleyimplants.com> References: <24ad757be95d4a47ad2f9811a28fd6b7@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <20051012234304.4bad2d56.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 23:19:36 -0500 compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > SGI Indigo2 and some HP-9000 PA-RISC desktops run EISA, with the > unrealized hope (same as PCI, really) that more hardware would work > with them. Few companies wrote drivers, though You can add DEC Alpha. There was the all EISA "Jensen" / DEC 2000/300 / DECpc AXP 150. Later Alphas came with PCI and ISA or PCI and EISA. Some IBM RS/6000 PowerPC machines of the PReP era came with PCI and ISA. Newer CHRP machines have a "hidden" ISA bus on the main board to connect serial, keyboard, mouse, ... interfaces via a standard ISA "multi-IO" chip usually found in PeeCees. So did Sun. The "ebus" found in UltraSPARC machines is more or less ISA. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Oct 12 17:36:50 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 05 22:36:50 GMT Subject: Looking for ancient FreeBSD Message-ID: <0510122236.AA04125@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Brad Parker wrote: > just curious, do any of these fit the bill? > > http://ftp.csie.chu.edu.tw/FreeBSD/ISO-IMAGES-i386/ Thanks! When I get a chance to download and burn that ISO image, I'll know whether it fits the bill. :-) MS From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 17:48:29 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:48:29 -0700 Subject: ISA and derivitive non-PCs (was PCs that support only one floppy drive in H/W) In-Reply-To: <24ad757be95d4a47ad2f9811a28fd6b7@valleyimplants.com> References: <24ad757be95d4a47ad2f9811a28fd6b7@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: On 10/11/05, compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > In the almost-UNIX front, Apollo workstations were ISA based. > > SGI Indigo2 and some HP-9000 PA-RISC desktops run EISA, with the unrealized hope (same as PCI, really) that more hardware would work with them. Few companies wrote drivers, though Around 1993/1994, I had an evaluation board for one of the 3D VR tracker devices and was _supposed_ to write a driver for the Indigo2, but the deal to borrow the Indigo2 fell through and I never did the driver (and the vendor _did_ ask for the board back). :-( -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 17:54:53 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:54:53 -0700 Subject: Need a driver: Intel PCMCIA Flash card In-Reply-To: References: <200510112007260715.5450E0E1@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: On 10/12/05, Simon Fryer wrote: > I am guessing, by looking at the size of the card, this is a Type II > card. Most PCMCIA card readers fitted to laptops and PCs will only > read Type III PCMCIA memory cards. Perhaps you have an off-by-one error? Most recent laptops only have a single Type II slot, but many Pentium laptops have a "dual Type II/Type III socket" meaning you can use two Type II cards simultaneously or one Type III (the thickness of the card blocks the upper slot) Type I cards were strange and most semi-modern stuff doesn't support them, AFAIK. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Oct 12 17:55:24 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:55:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Classic hardware tours and KIM-1 repair advice In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: KIM-1 repair advice wanted" (Oct 7, 12:51) References: <43466F61.174.FCBD1A5C@localhost> Message-ID: <10510122355.ZM29772@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 7 2005, 12:51, Hans Franke wrote: > Am 7 Oct 2005 0:09 meinte Pete Turnbull: > > > As some of you know, I'm helping with an exhibition of classic > > machines in the Department of Computer Science -- for Open Day > > tomorrow (Friday), and running conducted tours on Wednesday as well. [ ... ] > > Well, one of the supposedly-working exhibits is my KIM-1, but it > > died this afternoon. > That's unusual, standard procedure is that a machine dies at > the opening day at the first real presentation - no matter > how often you testet before. :-) Well, I *was* demoing it to the organisers and senior staff... Final death toll was one KIM-1, the top 1K of my Commodore PET (one of the early ones with the nasty MOS Technology 6550 RAMs) and a Mac Plus which got rather unhappy midmorning. Probably all fixable in one way or another. "Thank you" to the various people who replied about the KIM. I never had time to look at it again this week, perhaps I'll have a go at the weekend. I did actually know about the site that several of you mentioned, and I also have the schematic and most manuals, just not handy at the time, so I was really just wondering if there was a common failure mode. The suggestion of using small components on the back, out of sight, is an interesting one, though, and the suggestions made about other methods may be helpful too. In other respects the tours for the students were a great success -- and the staff loved them. Some went and fetched their colleagues and came back with them! We had a display of generations of computing from a 1920s mechanical card tabulator through bits of ENIAC (valve), Pegasus (valve), LEO (transistor, well the last version was anyway), and various TTL-based boards (some SSI, some with 74181 MSI ALUs, etc) to LSI/VLSI ending up with an 8008 board (we don't seem to have a 4004 between us, surprisingly -- if anyone would like to donate one for next time, feel free ;-)). We had a display of three generations (densities) of core memory, static and dynamic RAM chips and SIMMS/DIMMS/etc, several generations of EPROMS (oh, and a diode ROM board) and a few chips to see under a fairly powerful binocular microscope. We had a whole range of drives and discs, from RK05 to modern SCSI,including some hard drives running with perspex covers, and all sorts of floppies, stiffies, flopticals and zips, and tapes from paper tape (one of the quiz questions was how much paper tape would it take to store the same data as you'd fit on a 3.5" floppy?) through 1/2" magtape and C10 cassettes to TK50s, DLT-IVs and 200GB LTO Ultrium-IIs. The microcomputer section included an Altair 8800B, some S100 cards, Motorola MK6800D2, KIM-1, Scrumpi (an SC/MP kit), PET (running moonlander), Apple ][ (displaying a rolling demo of digitised pics), a BBC micro running games and with no less than 4 second processors, an untidy heap[1] of "lots of micros from the late 70s and early 80s", an Apple Mac (supposedly running Pagemaker 1.0 but that was the Mac that got ill) with a modified "1984" promo video[2] at the side, an original pristine 5160 PC/XT, an Amiga, and an Acorn Archimedes. [1] the "untidy heap" was to convey the idea of the explosion of micros that appeared around this time, and included -- some with the tops off -- Exidy Sorcerer, Acorn Atom, TRS-80, Sharp MZ80K, Sinclair ZX80, TI99/4, Sinclair ZX81, Jupiter Ace, Sinclair Spectrum, Dragon 32, Vic-20, Acorn Electron, Sinclair Spectrum Plus, Commodore 64, Commodore 128, Sinclair QL, Sony MSX and probably a couple I've forgotten. Altogether, we counted 16 different microprocessors in the display (another pop quiz question the students were supposed to answer). [2] the video is the 2004 version where the runner is wearing an iPod. We wondered (another quiz question: what was the anachronism) how many students would not notice the iPod because they're so common now, but most of them spotted it. What most didn't get without prompting was the question about how that related to the displays on either side -- which were an Acorn ARM Development system and an Archimedes (with an ARM processor). We also asked them what the most common microprocessor is, and a small number thought it was a Pentium (which doesn't even make the top three, actually). The "business and scientific" section covered a longer period, starting with a PDP-8/E (pop quiz: which machine has been through a dishwasher?) with attached ASR33 and which was running the inchworm and basic accumulator test programs, as well as a little routine to punch "HELLO, WORLD!" souveniers on tape (written by one of the staff who'd never seen PDP-8 code before, so he was dead pleased when it worked). Then we had an 11/40 opened up to the gaze of the onlookers (plus the "Ken and Den" photo at the side) and boards from an 11/03, 11/23, and 11/73, followed by a microVAX-II (no room for an 11/780, alas). The final item in that row was a 20-year-old working 11/53 system running an exam marking system under RSX-11M, with a mark-sense reader -- which booted first time and ran without problem all week, demonstrating -- as we hoped and expected -- that things were built to be reliable in those days. The other side of that aisle was mostly RISC-based machines, starting with an early Sparcstation, then the first microSPARC, a Mac Classic (last 68K Mac, first under 1000UKP), then Indigo, Indy and O2 SGI workstations (what machine do you see in Jurassic Park?) running assorted demos and finally a modern mid-range dual-processor Sun server. Note the complete absence of Wintel PCs (apart from the 5160) :-) We managed to relegate them to a corner table of their own, but we did have a full range of motherboards from XT (couldn't find a 5150 in time), through AT, 386, 486, assorted Pentium and AMDs to a big dual-core machine that will finally be put into service on Friday. The last section was sort of unusual odds and ends -- a piece of one of the Crays the Meteorological Office used to use for forecasting, some transputer boards from a Meganode and a Paramid system, a Presence-II neural net processor board (a PCI card designed and built by the Advanced Computer Architectures group at the University), one module from my Origin 2000 "supercomputer" with some superfluous Craylinks to make more lights flash, an Origin 200, and some FPGA stuff from CompSci. We also had some pieces of Elliot 803 and English Electric KDF9 along with someone who had actually worked on these systems, and could talk enthusiastically about the novel and innovative aspects of their architectures, but sadly he got called away mid-morning. We all had an interesting and enjoyable day, though some of us are a bit hoarse from running sixteen tour groups through our parts of the exhibition! One of the technicians took lots of photos so I'll see if I can pick some out when I get a set and put them up online somewhere. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Oct 12 18:39:30 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:39:30 -0500 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <0IO8008D6XKGVR80@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IO8008D6XKGVR80@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051012183930.231a43fa.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:06:10 -0400 Allison wrote: > > > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > > From: Dan Williams > > Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:17:32 +0100 > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > > >> Dan, I don't think I've ever seen a 5.25" PCMCIA drive. Do they > >exist? There's actually not a huge amount of difference between the > >PCMCIA bus and ISA. IIRC, you can get PCMCIA-PC104 adapters and > >PC104 is very close to ISA.> > >> Cheers, > >> Chuck > >> > >These guys made one ten years ago, there might be some around. > > > >http://www.accurite.com/PR-PC.html > > > >Dan > > On the whole I prefer my solution. A simple 486/66 on a board that > doesnt have any "chip set" and ISA cards that are easy to find in > junkers. Convenient, you bet. The board board I selected uses PS2 > keyboard and mouse. I have two spare boards and the nicads have been > removed to prevent leakage. Thse have done well for floppy futzing > from any 5.25 to any 3.5" (excluding the near unseen 2.88). > I don't know that I've ever seen a 486 motherboard that didn't use a 'chipset.' The ASIC 'chipset' motherboards came in the late 286/early 386 era. The big 'Full AT footprint' '286 motherboards don't use a 'chipset' but rather lots and lots of TTL gates and standard Intel 8xxx LSI chips. Tony can probably add a few comments about the switch from 'regular logic' PeeCee motherboards to 'chipset' based ones, as he seems to be running a 'processor upgraded' IBM AT system specifically to avoid 'black box' ASIC-base motherboards. > Another good choice is the 4" tall Dell Pizza boxes such as the 425/np > though 466/np. Theses are small, use PS2 connectors for keyboard > and mouse and the board supports most floppies (x2), IDE disks to > 500mb and S3 VGA video. There is room enough to add a CDrom or 5.25 > floppy. > > A third candidate just a shade larger than the Dell pizza boxes is a > AT&T Golbalist 620. That's a P100 box with three ISA or PCI slots, > mouse, and keyboard are PS2, video is VGA and room for a IDE disk, > CDrom and a 3.5 floppy inside. > > Beats wailing ones head against the wall with trying to retrofit > current solutions. Also solves the how to reuse older hardware that > exists for free. I definitely don't have any 'current solution' hardware here that I am wailing about not being able to use. My Dell systems are first-generation 100MHz bus Pentium III systems, which makes them 'rather old' in current terms. Today somebody at work gave me an 'old' machine out of his car from home that he didn't want anymore. Said 'you can probably salvage something out of it.' Then he dropped the comment that it probably has an 800 MHz process. Uh... The fastest machines that I have here at home at present run _550 MHz_ processors. How times have changed, I guess. The 'future' I am avoiding is machines without an ISA bus, with only USB for keyboard, mouse, and other peripherals, etc. I agree about the usefulness of keeping around some 'plain old' legacy systems from the '486 or early Pentium era. I've always kept boxes like that around for things like the machine at the bench that programs EPROMS (my EPROM programmer is one of those Needham PB-10 ISA card programmers (it will last FOREVER since the most 'proprietary' parts on it are two 6821 PIAs) From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 19:24:36 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:24:36 -0400 Subject: Need a driver: Intel PCMCIA Flash card In-Reply-To: References: <200510112007260715.5450E0E1@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <434DA944.30707@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/12/05, Simon Fryer wrote: > >>I am guessing, by looking at the size of the card, this is a Type II >>card. Most PCMCIA card readers fitted to laptops and PCs will only >>read Type III PCMCIA memory cards. > > > Perhaps you have an off-by-one error? > > Most recent laptops only have a single Type II slot, but many Pentium > laptops have a "dual Type II/Type III socket" meaning you can use two > Type II cards simultaneously or one Type III (the thickness of the > card blocks the upper slot) > > Type I cards were strange and most semi-modern stuff doesn't support > them, AFAIK. But aren't most of those Intel Series 2b cards Type I? I mean the ones that hold IOS images in slightly older Ciscos. As far as I can tell, they're just a bit thinner than your average ethernet/wireless/etc card. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 12 19:44:29 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:44:29 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IO90018LWO4S5K0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:39:30 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:06:10 -0400 >Allison wrote: > >> >> On the whole I prefer my solution. A simple 486/66 on a board that >> doesnt have any "chip set" and ISA cards that are easy to find in >> junkers. Convenient, you bet. The board board I selected uses PS2 >> keyboard and mouse. I have two spare boards and the nicads have been >> removed to prevent leakage. Thse have done well for floppy futzing >> from any 5.25 to any 3.5" (excluding the near unseen 2.88). >> > >I don't know that I've ever seen a 486 motherboard that didn't use a >'chipset.' The ASIC >'chipset' motherboards came in the late 286/early 386 era. The big >'Full AT footprint' '286 motherboards don't use a 'chipset' but rather >lots and lots of TTL gates and standard Intel 8xxx LSI chips. I differentiated ASIC glue from the other types of chipsets that are programable like the PCI bridges and resident FDC/IDE/Serial/parallel. Ever try to get W9x to run on a PCI machine without the correct PCI bridge driver? It's painful. For example the 486slc/33 mb I have in fornt of me is one of those small footprint styles (6.75x8.75") with 5 ISA-16 slots and four 30pin simm slots. There is an asic on that that really only glues the 486slc to the bus and contains the 8237 DMA not any of the other LSI (5818 RTC/Cmos and 8242 keyboard) functions. For it's size the board is mostly connectors! >Tony can probably add a few comments about the switch from 'regular >logic' PeeCee motherboards to 'chipset' based ones, as he seems to be >running a 'processor upgraded' IBM AT system specifically to avoid >'black box' ASIC-base motherboards. No doubt. But I hope he reflects on my use of chipset adverse to ASIC. >I definitely don't have any 'current solution' hardware here that I am >wailing about not being able to use. My Dell systems are >first-generation 100MHz bus Pentium III systems, which makes them >'rather old' in current terms. Today somebody at work gave me an 'old' >machine out of his car from home that he didn't want anymore. Said 'you >can probably salvage something out of it.' Then he dropped the comment >that it probably has an 800 MHz process. Uh... That 800mhz machine and definatly the PIII are way faster than anything I have. The main PC here for most on line cruft is a P166mmx from around 1998 an asus board. >I agree about the usefulness of keeping around some 'plain old' legacy >systems from the '486 or early Pentium era. I've always kept boxes like >that around for things like the machine at the bench that programs >EPROMS (my EPROM programmer is one of those Needham PB-10 ISA card >programmers (it will last FOREVER since the most 'proprietary' parts on >it are two 6821 PIAs) One of those 486s has the BGLA logic analyser in it. Handy 16channel thing. Allison From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 12 15:59:05 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:59:05 +0000 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <20051012183930.231a43fa.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <0IO8008D6XKGVR80@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051013005136.IKOS1799.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:06:10 -0400 > Allison wrote: > > > > > > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > > > From: Dan Williams > > > Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:17:32 +0100 > > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > > > > > >> Dan, I don't think I've ever seen a 5.25" PCMCIA drive. Do they > > >exist? There's actually not a huge amount of difference between the > > >PCMCIA bus and ISA. IIRC, you can get PCMCIA-PC104 adapters and > > >PC104 is very close to ISA.> > > >> Cheers, > > >> Chuck > > >> > > >These guys made one ten years ago, there might be some around. > > > > > >http://www.accurite.com/PR-PC.html > > > > > >Dan > > > > On the whole I prefer my solution. A simple 486/66 on a board that > > I don't know that I've ever seen a 486 motherboard that didn't use a > 'chipset.' The ASIC > 'chipset' motherboards came in the late 286/early 386 era. The big > 'Full AT footprint' '286 motherboards don't use a 'chipset' but rather > lots and lots of TTL gates and standard Intel 8xxx LSI chips. They exist, I have seen several TTL motherboards with TTL for 386 and 486. Some hybrid TTL and one or two chipsets as well. > Tony can probably add a few comments about the switch from 'regular > > Another good choice is the 4" tall Dell Pizza boxes such as the 425/np > wailing about not being able to use. My Dell systems are > first-generation 100MHz bus Pentium III systems, which makes them > that it probably has an 800 MHz process. Uh... CHECK that PIII! Many PIIIs high clock CPUs still use 100MHz FSB, there is PIII 600 512K but 2.05V, not too many late revision slot 1 supports this. My friend is using two of PIII 800 on late revision P2B-B and P2B-D, yes true slot 1 PIII 800s. > The fastest machines that I have here at home at present run _550 MHz_ > I agree about the usefulness of keeping around some 'plain old' legacy > systems from the '486 or early Pentium era. I've always kept boxes like Agreed. I keep some old 386/486/pentium boards around. In fact, I have small collection of PS/2 machines. Not the playstations! :) Cheers, Wizard From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 12 10:56:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:56:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board In-Reply-To: <20051011174634.10321.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Oct 11, 5 10:46:34 am Message-ID: > Right. Those aspects of typical pc hardware that had > been integrated on the chip. Seemingly though, the > Tandy 2000 ignored at least some of the extra > facilities of the 80186 and simply utilized it as a > fast 8086. That board has one of the highest chip > counts I've ever seen. But it's also true that video I am not sure what you consider to be a high chip count. These days, 20 chips would probably be 'high'. In classic computing, 100-200 ICs is fairly common, I am sure I've seen boards with more than that. > and much else was integrated. > I opened up a color IBM terminal years ago, mainly > because I wanted to see if the monitor could be > utilized as a vga (apparently had analog inputs, and > only r,g,b, and sync lines). Phor phun. 3179 is the # > sticking in my head, which might correspond to the > model number. But then again it might not. I never > actually bothered, but upon cursory observation of the > logic board - 8088 based - I was amazed how much "pc > stuph" was present. In other words most of the makings > of a pc/xt motherboard were present as I recall. Of > course there were no provision for disk drives and > whatnot, and may not even have had a bios as we know > it. I'd like to get another one. This reminds me of an IBM colour teerminal that I rescued about 10 years ago. I didn't get the monitor (I can't rememebr if it simply wasn't there, or if it was not going to be practically repairable). The base unit was a plinth that fitted under the monitor, the keyboard was somewhat PC-like, but IIRC with a different DIN plug to the PC (maybe the 5 pin 240 degree one). I seem to rememebr a very useful quick reference card slotted into it. It gave the pinouts of the connctors (amongst other things). Not just the comms connector, but also the monitor connector and even the connector for the ROM cartridge. That gave most of the processor bus signals, of course. I think the PSU was in the monitor, and powered the logic side of things via the video cable. I can't remember if the ICs were IBM-labelled or not, but I seem to rememebr there was enough info on that card to work out much of it. Somewhat suprisingly for IBM, it was an ASCII unit. > Someone told me that MINIX didn't deal with the bios > at all. What about Linux? Only for booting, I think. The initial bootstrap uses some of the BIOS routines, but once the kernel has loaded, and the machine is kicked into '386 mode', the BIOS is ignored totally. I know for a fact that linux has no problem with hard drives bigger than the BIOS can support (the old 540M limit doesn't matter at all), and having read bits of the source code for the serial, parallel port, keyboard, etc drives, it's clear they hit the bare metal. And the floppy driver does too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 12 10:58:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:58:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051011191656.04a58670@mail> from "John Foust" at Oct 11, 5 07:17:43 pm Message-ID: > > At 05:55 PM 10/11/2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >At 700MB/cd, it'd be about 12 reams per CD, not 92. 92 reams would get > >you about 5.4GB, which is more than a (single-sided, single layer) > >DVD-R holds. > > My math: > > 472,500 bits per page > 945,000 bits per double-sided page > 118,125 bytes per double-sided page > 681,574,400 bytes per 650 M CD > 5,452,595,200 bits per CD > 46,160 pages > 92 reams > 59,062,500 bytes per ream Without checking it (it's late, OK...) the ratio of 'about 92 reams' to 'about 12 reams' is about 8. Is there a bits/bytes mixup somewhere? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 12 11:06:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:06:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E586B@sbs.jdfogg.com> from "James Fogg" at Oct 11, 5 10:01:16 pm Message-ID: > > > Back when small printers were hard to come by, there was at > > least one technology that used a "paper' made of a black > > layer on a paper substrate covered by a very thin layer of > > aluminum. The printer burned through the aluminum, leaving > > the black spots exposed. Oddly enough, this sounds like a > > fiarly permanent process. Was the stuff called > > "electrographic" paper? > > This might be Readex Microprint technology. I've never seen an example > of Readex output, although the company is a few miles from me and used > to be a microfiche customer. I do know they got significant storage > reduction compared to paper. I've come across it 4 times, I think. One, as every UK collector will realise, is the Sinclair ZX printer. Radio Shack sold something called a Quick Printer II (or some name like that) which was similar. The UK Magazine did a project called the 'Microprinter' which used such a print mechansim, and I was given one of thsoe. And the last was a thing called an 'Axiom EX820 Microplotter' which used an 7 or 8 needle head, not a single electrode as in the ZX printer. I rememebr experimaneting with the paper a bit (before I could afford any sort of printer). It took a fair voltage to burn off the coating -- a few 10's of volts at least. A 5V supply wouldn't do it. I've never seen a schemaitc for the ZX printer, and there's a ULA in there which makes life 'interesting', but I seem to rememebr a coil/transformer on the PCB too which might well be part of a voltage step-up circuit. My experience with the paper is that it scratches very easily and the aluminium coating comes off if you crease it. This causes extra black marks on the paper. I have no idea how long it would last if carefully rolled. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 12 11:18:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:18:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: from "Steven N. Hirsch" at Oct 12, 5 07:47:14 am Message-ID: > I'm sitting here looking at a TEAC FD-55GFR 5.25" floppy drive with a > TEAC-branded SCSI daughterboard mounted on it. Picked this thing up for a > buck at a flea market and don't know much about it. Anyone else familiar > with it? I'm not even sure if this is a HD drive. The _drive_ is HD, I am not sure what the controller can do, though. The suffix letters of Teac drive numbers seem to indicate the specs as follows : A : 40 cylinder single-sided B : 40 cyclinder double sided C : 77 cylinder single sided (??? I have never seen this) D : 77 cylinder double sided (??? or this) E : 80 cylinder single sided F : 80 cylinder double sided G : 80 cylinder double sided, 360RPM, high density (1.2M for PCs) H : 80 cylinder double sided, 300RPM, high density (1.44M for PCs) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 12 11:25:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:25:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: <434D2ACF.1070209@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Oct 12, 5 03:25:03 pm Message-ID: > > der Mouse wrote: > >>I've never heard of anybody making more than double-sided PCBs at > >>home (I would love to be proved wrong!). > > > > > > I can't *prove* you wrong. But I've spoken with someone who claimed to > > have done it, and when I started asking questions, talked a good enough > > line that I found it believable. As she described it, you need > > epoxy/fibreglass mix, which you cast a thin sheet of. You then sand it > > smooth, copper-plate it, and etch. Slap on another coat of epoxy and > > fibreglass, let it cure, sand it smooth, copper-plate, and etch. > > Lather, rinse, repeat. > > > > The hard part is of course quality control (and plated-through vias, > > which you can get somewhere with by drilling holes before doing the > > last copper-plating). And registration of the layers. But with > > patience and attention to detail...after all, anyone doing this is > > considering time to be worth a great deal less than money, or the job > > would simply be shipped off to a commercial pcb fab house. :) > > It's the sort of thing I can see our Mr Duell doing though. s/Mr/Dr/ :-) You do realise that I wrote the >> bit above. I have never tried making more than double-sided PCBs by hand. And for 1-off prototypes, where typically I want to try something, get it working, then move on to the next bit, I don't want a PCB anyway. It's possible to hand-wire stuff well up into the low 100's mf MHz range if you are careful. The main trick is to build everythign on a coppr ground plane (such as a pice of copper-clad board, unetched), stick down little bits of stripboard, strip side up, as component mounts, connect that which needs to be grounded to the ground plane with the shortest possible wires, and fit decoupling caps in the same way. -tony From gilcarrick at comcast.net Wed Oct 12 20:15:57 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:15:57 -0500 Subject: PC Collection on eBay In-Reply-To: <20051010232452.WOXI2981.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <200510130125.j9D1PoAL089721@keith.ezwind.net> Portland Oregon 8708420717 I guess the bicycle is included! ;) Gil From news at computercollector.com Wed Oct 12 20:29:35 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:29:35 -0400 Subject: PC Collection on eBay In-Reply-To: <200510130125.j9D1PoAL089721@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <000301c5cf95$92c97480$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> I recognize that garage. It's Sellam's house! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gil Carrick Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 9:16 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: PC Collection on eBay Portland Oregon 8708420717 I guess the bicycle is included! ;) Gil From ikvsabre at comcast.net Wed Oct 12 20:57:27 2005 From: ikvsabre at comcast.net (Joe Stevenson) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:57:27 -0400 Subject: Cleaning out some stuff In-Reply-To: References: <200510112007260715.5450E0E1@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200510122157270062.29682F76@smtp.comcast.net> Hi there. I'm clearing out some stuff, so I'll be posting a couple items at a time. I'm just looking for a nominal amout, plus shipping. Not worth the effort of putting them on eBay. Diamond Stealth 64 PCI (I believe it is 1 or 2 MB, no chips populated in the expansion sockets). $2 4x4MB 30-pin SIMMs (16 MB total). $5 (I have 4 sets of these) Joe From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 12 21:45:15 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:45:15 -0500 Subject: Looking for ancient FreeBSD References: <0510122037.AA03904@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <011401c5cfa0$24a7c960$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> if you can't find it... I'm sure I have the cd here somewhere. I think I have a complete set of freebsd distro cd's back to 2.0. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Sokolov" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 3:37 PM Subject: Looking for ancient FreeBSD > Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, > > This is almost Classic - I'm looking for a place to download an old > version of FreeBSD, specifically the last release of the 2.2.x branch, > which I think was 2.2.8. However, it seems to have totally vanished off > the net, including of course ftp.FreeBSD.ORG, apparently removed by the > dark forces of the evil reptilian conspiracy who want to force everyone > to run the modern crap. Has anyone saved a copy of the FreeBSD 2.2.8 > distribution or some nearby version? TIA, > > MS > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 12 21:51:18 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:51:18 -0500 Subject: lost all my phone numbers :\ Message-ID: <013201c5cfa0$feb46780$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Today I hit the wrong recessed button (of two) on my pdaphone.... goodbye all phone numbers, email addresses, etc. My business contacts are easy to replace, but my classiccmp info isn't :\ Many of you here I had home phone numbers and/or cellphone numbers, etc. Not anymore. So, if you are sorry you ever gave me your number(s), just ignore this email. Otherwise, email me your contact info OFFLIST please. This isn't a solicitation for phone numbers I never had...just those here who I already had the info for. Thanks! Jay West From vrs at msn.com Wed Oct 12 22:07:01 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:07:01 -0700 Subject: PC Collection on eBay References: <200510130125.j9D1PoAL089721@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > Portland Oregon > > 8708420717 Zane, is that storage unit one of yours :-)? Vince From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 12 21:42:47 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 22:42:47 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IOA00L3D25ARH20@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:18:42 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> I'm sitting here looking at a TEAC FD-55GFR 5.25" floppy drive with a >> TEAC-branded SCSI daughterboard mounted on it. Picked this thing up for a >> buck at a flea market and don't know much about it. Anyone else familiar >> with it? I'm not even sure if this is a HD drive. > >The _drive_ is HD, I am not sure what the controller can do, though. The >suffix letters of Teac drive numbers seem to indicate the specs as >follows : > >A : 40 cylinder single-sided >B : 40 cyclinder double sided >C : 77 cylinder single sided (??? I have never seen this) >D : 77 cylinder double sided (??? or this) >E : 80 cylinder single sided >F : 80 cylinder double sided 300 rpm only >G : 80 cylinder double sided, 360RPM, high density (1.2M for PCs) Does both 300 and 360. (can replace the E and F with correct jumpers). >H : 80 cylinder double sided, 300RPM, high density (1.44M for PCs) Never seen an FD55H. Allison From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Oct 12 19:05:48 2005 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:05:48 -0500 Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510102103.j9AL3Bpd096541@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510102103.j9AL3Bpd096541@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 16:03 -0500 10/10/05, Fred wrote: >Message: 27 >Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:45:02 -0700 (PDT) >From: Fred Cisin >Subject: Re: Archival storage >... >How much would it cost to move Sellam's collection >to the dark side of the moon? ...and keep moving it every 2 weeks, as the _dark_ side of the Moon moved around to the other side of the Moon (even if it was on the _far_ side)? Better to use those craters around the lunar North Pole. If Sellam's collection didn't fill them up... If I'm gonna be a smart-ass, I *really* should be caught up, shouldn't I? Sorry... -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 12 22:31:41 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:31:41 -0700 Subject: PC Collection on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <200510130125.j9D1PoAL089721@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > > Portland Oregon >> >> 8708420717 > >Zane, is that storage unit one of yours :-)? > > Vince Not guilty! I'm tempted to suggest that whoever buys that swings by mine :^P Seriously, whose collection is that? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gilcarrick at comcast.net Wed Oct 12 22:44:16 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 22:44:16 -0500 Subject: lost all my phone numbers :\ In-Reply-To: <013201c5cfa0$feb46780$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200510130354.j9D3sGui092059@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Today I hit the wrong recessed button (of two) on my > pdaphone.... goodbye all phone numbers, email addresses, etc. > > My business contacts are easy to replace, but my classiccmp > info isn't :\ Many of you here I had home phone numbers > and/or cellphone numbers, etc. Not anymore. ... Not too long ago my son gave me a PDA that came with a magazine subscription. You know things are commoditized when they hit that level. Or they are "free after rebate" at the local store. (He was giving it to me for the museum.) Anyway, I looked at it and said, who would use a PDA that couldn't be synchronized with a backup device? Now I know. Somebody who hangs out on a Vintage Computer List. ;) Gil From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Oct 12 22:59:14 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:59:14 -0400 Subject: GDS Tapeouts solved... In-Reply-To: <011401c5cfa0$24a7c960$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <0510122037.AA03904@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <011401c5cfa0$24a7c960$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <434DDB92.1000801@atarimuseum.com> I want to think Paul Stein over at deepchip.com for coming to my assistance with the exact answer I've been trying to find for sometime. I've been sitting on literally hundreds of chip "tapeouts" of various proprietary Atari chip designs from the 70's through the 80's for various chips used in their arcade, home video game and home computer systems. I plethora of legacy designs that would've been a true loss to classic computing and video gaming history had they lanquished to a point where the 9 track tapes would've become unreadable. (As it was, these tapes were horribly stored in an outside storage warehouse in MA. for over 6 years exposed to extreme heat, moisture, cold, etc... so its been amazing that they have survived as well as they have over the last 20-30 years - depending on their original year of origin) Paul used to work with GDS II and Calma systems and gave me the command needed to recover the contents of these tapes back into a readable and useable file: dd if=/dev/deviceName of=/path/file ibs=2048 obs=512 conv=block files=n Using Mandrake 9 on a PII 333mhz system, I set-up a samba connect over to one of my WinXP machines and then I simply dropped the files= switch as I was unsure just how many files may have resided on the tape, but it worked like a charm, I was able to open the files up in my GDS viewer software and now I can enjoy several weeks of sleepness nights recovering all of these chip designs from these tapes, including several chips which were prototypes meant for several high end Atari advanced 68000 based computer systems. It would be interesting to see if these chips could be fgpa'd and these once rumored super graphics computers could be brought back to life, could be fun :-) Well, I thought I'd share this info with everyone as I know I've asked many a times to the group if anyone could assist and I've been at this now since, oh about 2003, so its good to finally be able to access this data at last. Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/130 - Release Date: 10/12/2005 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 12 23:00:15 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 05:00:15 +0100 Subject: PC Collection on eBay In-Reply-To: <000301c5cf95$92c97480$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> References: <000301c5cf95$92c97480$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <434DDBCF.4090005@yahoo.co.uk> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > I recognize that garage. It's Sellam's house! That's no garage... that's the master bedroom... :-) From prbotha at hotmail.com Wed Oct 12 23:11:17 2005 From: prbotha at hotmail.com (Pieter Botha) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 04:11:17 +0000 Subject: Original PDP-8 spares Message-ID: As promised, here's the list: 1 x Faceplace w/ circuit board & functional toggle switches. Unfortunately no key. 42 x double-width logic boards 93 x single-width logic boards 6 x ribbon cables w/ connectors 1 x Ferroxcube core module complete w/ connectors 2 x Marginal Power strips 2 x Wired backplanes 3 x nameplates (one bent, one nicked, one perfect) >From the nameplates it seems to have had a serial number in the late 700's. I would appreciate some advice as to how I should go about selling this. Obviously eBay would command the greatest exposure in terms of interested parties, but I would really like it to go to somebody who will really be able to restore it (or maybe who needs spares to complete an existing one). Any suggestions ? Many thanks ! Pieter Botha ============================ _________________________________________________________________ Upgrade to MSN Hotmail Plus - your e-mail, your way! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-xe&DI=1054&XAPID=1816 From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 12 23:19:54 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:19:54 -0400 Subject: PC Collection on eBay References: <000301c5cf95$92c97480$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <006c01c5cfad$5e0058a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Portland Oregon 8708420717 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8708420717 Worse use of a photograph ever! Well maybe not worst, four computers are visible. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Oct 12 23:31:45 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:31:45 -0500 Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510122331.45909.pat@computer-refuge.org> Tony Duell declared on Wednesday 12 October 2005 10:56 am: > This reminds me of an IBM colour teerminal that I rescued about 10 > years ago. I didn't get the monitor (I can't rememebr if it simply > wasn't there, or if it was not going to be practically repairable). > The base unit was a plinth that fitted under the monitor, the keyboard > was somewhat PC-like, but IIRC with a different DIN plug to the PC > (maybe the 5 pin 240 degree one). > > I seem to rememebr a very useful quick reference card slotted into it. > It gave the pinouts of the connctors (amongst other things). Not just > the comms connector, but also the monitor connector and even the > connector for the ROM cartridge. That gave most of the processor bus > signals, of course. I think the PSU was in the monitor, and powered > the logic side of things via the video cable. I can't remember if the > ICs were IBM-labelled or not, but I seem to rememebr there was enough > info on that card to work out much of it. > > Somewhat suprisingly for IBM, it was an ASCII unit. Are you sure about that? It sounds a lot like the coax or twinax terminals that IBM made to go with 3270-controllers or AS/400s (respectively). The ones I've seen which match your description had an RS-232 for a printer connection, but did their main comms through the coax or twinax port out the back. I guess it might be ASCII but probably isn't an RS-232 terminal. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 23:33:39 2005 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:33:39 -0700 Subject: PC Collection on eBay In-Reply-To: <006c01c5cfad$5e0058a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <000301c5cf95$92c97480$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <006c01c5cfad$5e0058a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: I looked at his other sales, and they seem to be junk that is not computer related. Maybe this isnt the id of the owner, since one of the last sales was of Fiestaware. hard to get a read on it from that. he did respond to the comments on the photo in the copy for the listing. From gilcarrick at comcast.net Wed Oct 12 23:47:22 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:47:22 -0500 Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board In-Reply-To: <200510122331.45909.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200510130457.j9D4vDWn093087@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Are you sure about that? It sounds a lot like the coax or > twinax terminals that IBM made to go with 3270-controllers or > AS/400s (respectively). The ones I've seen which match your > description had an > RS-232 for a printer connection, but did their main comms > through the coax or twinax port out the back. I guess it > might be ASCII but probably isn't an RS-232 terminal. Most 3270 & 5250 class terminals used printers that were similarly attached (co-ax or twin-ax). Later models might have supported serial printers, but I doubt it. There were several vendors who made "protocol converters" specifically so that users could attach cheap parallel printers to their mainframes and midrange systems. Andrew was one that I recall. IBM also made some weird terminals that almost defy classification, especially for word processing applications. Gil > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Oct 13 00:25:22 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:25:22 -0500 Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board In-Reply-To: <200510130457.j9D4vDWn093087@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510130457.j9D4vDWn093087@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200510130025.23097.pat@computer-refuge.org> Gil Carrick declared on Wednesday 12 October 2005 11:47 pm: > ... > > > Are you sure about that? It sounds a lot like the coax or > > twinax terminals that IBM made to go with 3270-controllers or > > AS/400s (respectively). The ones I've seen which match your > > description had an > > RS-232 for a printer connection, but did their main comms > > through the coax or twinax port out the back. I guess it > > might be ASCII but probably isn't an RS-232 terminal. > > Most 3270 & 5250 class terminals used printers that were similarly > attached (co-ax or twin-ax). Later models might have supported serial > printers, but I doubt it. There were several vendors who made > "protocol converters" specifically so that users could attach cheap > parallel printers to their mainframes and midrange systems. Andrew was > one that I recall. > > IBM also made some weird terminals that almost defy classification, > especially for word processing applications. Ok, I'm gonna run to my car and get the manual for the terminal I'm talking about.... >From the "IBM 3197 Model C Color Display Station Setup Instructions". Page 76, step 9.1.9: "If you have a printer (IBM 4201, IBM 5201, or IBM 4202), attach it to the logic element of your display station." That caption is accompanied by a picture showing a printer connecting via a cable with a DB25-looking connector to the terminal. I'd imagine that wasn't meant to be used for printing labels, form letters, etc, like the bigger coax/twinax printers that IBM sold were meant for. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From gilcarrick at comcast.net Thu Oct 13 00:41:54 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:41:54 -0500 Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board In-Reply-To: <200510130025.23097.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200510130551.j9D5pneO093898@keith.ezwind.net> ... > >From the "IBM 3197 Model C Color Display Station Setup > Instructions". > Page 76, step 9.1.9: "If you have a printer (IBM 4201, IBM > 5201, or IBM 4202), attach it to the logic element of your > display station." That caption is accompanied by a picture > showing a printer connecting via a cable with a DB25-looking > connector to the terminal. > > I'd imagine that wasn't meant to be used for printing labels, > form letters, etc, like the bigger coax/twinax printers that > IBM sold were meant for. Right. It's a twinax terminal for use with AS/40, etc. and it does support a local ASCII printer, but parallel, not serial. The IBM 3197/D is a high-performance monochrome display. The IBM/C Display Station offers the same functionality as the 3197/D but withe the benefit of a high-resolution, attrative, seven-colour screen. This workstation supports a variety of terminal nodes. The user can run two completely separate jobs at once, accessing unrelated sets of information and simply using the "hot key" to jump from one session to another. Combining high function with the very best in ergonomic design, the 3197 is an economical and attractive choice for any busy office. * 15" colour monitor/monochrome monitor * 24 rows by 80 columns screen format * Two display sessions * Variable vertical/horizontal split screen * Parallel printer port * Auto Dim * Tilt/Swivel stand" Gil > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From chris.shallcross at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 03:59:09 2005 From: chris.shallcross at gmail.com (Chris) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:59:09 +0100 Subject: Old (1980s) Computer Giveaway, UK, North West Message-ID: Hello, This seems to be the better of the two lists to put this, so here goes. Recently we've had a bit of a clearout at the company where I work. As it's a SW house from the early 80s we've unearthed all sorts of kit in the cellars. As I know people collect and use old computers I've gained a "stay of execution" for the old computer kit while I try to find a better home than a disposal site. If anyone can give a good home to any of the items in the following list please get in touch with me. Conditions: * All equipment is unwarranted. I don't know if any of it actually works. I can try to find out, but I can't guarantee anything. * Shipping not included. This isn't a for-profit exercise, but I can't run a for-loss exercise either - I don't think the powers that be would like that. * If you want to make a donation it'll be most welcome. In short, pay the shipping and I'll get it to you - carrier of your choice so long as they'll pick up from here. I don't know if any of it works, but I can try plugging it in and see what happens. It's all UK-spec, so if it's shipped elsewhere I don't know if it will work on your mains power, etc. If you want to cover the cost, I'll ship it to just about anywhere. List as follows: 1x Apricot F10 (whirrs, beeps and flashes lights when plugged in) 1x Apricot 5.25 drive, model no XN525F 1x Apricot Monitor, model no 12HM 1x Maxi 150MB tape drive (it's as big as a modern thin desktop and weighs as much, no media) 1x Tandon 286/N 1x Peanut PC2000 (this looks pretty old) 1x Northstar 100 (early 80s server, pretty big), and keyboard 1x Hasler telex, model no TU/014/10 4x Signet 3 boxes 1x Signet PC? (it looks like a PC, only it's dated Jun 1982) 1x Ampex ATL Model 210 + keyboard 1x Victor V286 1x Unisys 5059 There's a fair amount of 386/486/pentium 1 + 2 class stuff, old CRTs (working). We're based in Blackburn, UK. If you have any questions feel free to contact me and I'll try to answer them as best as I can. I hope someone can give at least some of this a home - it seems a real shame to let it all go. Regards, Chris Shallcross my.name at gmail.com From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Wed Oct 12 06:33:29 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 07:33:29 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <26c11a640510120117y25c227f5w@mail.gmail.com> References: <0IO300ECWH9RGN63@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20051009100052.57496ce4.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510091014.31801.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20051009110030.6bb202c7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510112128.RAA16760@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <26c11a640510111755g1f85ddccw@mail.gmail.com> <200510112130090393.07C7E5A7@10.0.0.252> <26c11a640510120117y25c227f5w@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.4.2.20051012073154.0335d2a8@boff-net.dhs.org> Damn, it's definitely a ClassicCmp thing. 10yr rule and certainly unique. =) If someone's got one out there, that would seem to be a great solution, right on Dan. -John Boffemmyer IV At 04:17 AM 10/12/2005, you wrote: > > Dan, I don't think I've ever seen a 5.25" PCMCIA drive. Do they > exist? There's actually not a huge amount of difference between > the PCMCIA bus and ISA. IIRC, you can get PCMCIA-PC104 adapters > and PC104 is very close to ISA. > > > > Cheers, > > Chuck > > >These guys made one ten years ago, there might be some around. > >http://www.accurite.com/PR-PC.html > >Dan > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/129 - Release Date: 10/11/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/129 - Release Date: 10/11/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/129 - Release Date: 10/11/2005 From jondjohnston at hotmail.com Wed Oct 12 07:00:21 2005 From: jondjohnston at hotmail.com (Jon Johnston) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 22:00:21 +1000 Subject: New stuff (HP9000) Message-ID: Pete, I saw your posting on Classic Computers. Do you still have your HP 9040 and/or 9050? Would you be interested in selling or trading? Thank you for your consideration. Regards, Jon Johnston HP Computer Museum http://www.hpmuseum.net From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 12 21:28:25 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051013022825.67671.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > I am not sure what you consider to be a high chip > count...100-200 ICs is > fairly common, I am sure I've seen boards with more > than that. It was around or a bit more then 200. Much more then a vanilla PC mobo. But like I said, video and floppy and parallel/serial logic was included. It's just that an 80186 was supposed to reduce the chip count. But that wouldn't apply to pc stuff - which is why I guess it was found on so many sbc apps. If you did use an 80186 as was intended by Intel, you wouldn't have a 100% compatible as someone pointed out. But a few units used it like a fast '86, and in fact there was a true clone built around one by a company in California. I have the ad somewhere... > This reminds me of an IBM colour teerminal that I > rescued about 10 years > ago... Sounds like the one I had, save for the rom cartridge??? >...That gave most of the > processor bus signals, of > course. -SPECIAL_W0QQitemZ5761702936 I know it wasn't a Peanut, but sounds like one ;). A groovy unit no doubt. It turns out the 3196/7 was probably the very model number. There's some on Epay right now, in somebody's store in Canada, but they're asking way too much. __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 13 02:42:59 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:42:59 -0700 Subject: Archival storage References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> <200510111503300309.0665EBDA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <434E0FFB.4D6555E3@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Back when small printers were hard to come by, there was at least one technology > that used a "paper' made of a black layer on a paper substrate covered by a very > thin layer of aluminum. The printer burned through the aluminum, leaving the black > spots exposed. Oddly enough, this sounds like a fiarly permanent process. Was the > stuff called "electrographic" paper? The Canon EP151 calculator used this technique as early as 1971. A rotating stylus is fed with 120 VDC driven by the output of an early MOS character generator ROM. Even earlier though: Western-Union/Seeburg TeleFax FAX machines circa 1960 used the technique. The paper is placed on a rotating drum for scanning and output. The output paper is similar to carbon paper with an additional aluminised coating or an aluminum-carbon amalgam. All tubes. Signal is analog, mechanically chopped for Pulse-Amplitude-Modulation transmission over the telcom line. (.. got two of them, but they don't work simply connected back-to-back, have to figure out what was in the 'cloud' in between, someday.) From fryers at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 03:51:02 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:51:02 +0100 Subject: Need a driver: Intel PCMCIA Flash card In-Reply-To: References: <200510112007260715.5450E0E1@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: All, On 10/12/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/12/05, Simon Fryer wrote: > > I am guessing, by looking at the size of the card, this is a Type II > > card. Most PCMCIA card readers fitted to laptops and PCs will only > > read Type III PCMCIA memory cards. > > Perhaps you have an off-by-one error? My memory appears to have that off-by-one error. The two cards I have on my desk that require the special reader didn't have anything to say what type they are. > Most recent laptops only have a single Type II slot, but many Pentium > laptops have a "dual Type II/Type III socket" meaning you can use two > Type II cards simultaneously or one Type III (the thickness of the > card blocks the upper slot) > > Type I cards were strange and most semi-modern stuff doesn't support > them, AFAIK. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 05:23:58 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:23:58 -0700 Subject: PC Collection on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <000301c5cf95$92c97480$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <006c01c5cfad$5e0058a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: I sent a message asking to go look next week if possible. We will see what they say. It doesn't seem anyone I know. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From pechter at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 08:35:47 2005 From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:35:47 -0400 Subject: Looking for ancient FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <011401c5cfa0$24a7c960$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <0510122037.AA03904@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <011401c5cfa0$24a7c960$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <434E62B3.4010002@gmail.com> I've got a set back to 1.0.2 if anyone needs it... IIRC I also rolled out a 1.1.5.1 or was it 1.5.1 set just before the mandatory move to 2.0 and the removal of the AT&T embargo'd files. Bill Jay West wrote: > if you can't find it... I'm sure I have the cd here somewhere. I think > I have a complete set of freebsd distro cd's back to 2.0. > > Jay > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Sokolov" > > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 3:37 PM > Subject: Looking for ancient FreeBSD > > >> Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, >> >> This is almost Classic - I'm looking for a place to download an old >> version of FreeBSD, specifically the last release of the 2.2.x branch, >> which I think was 2.2.8. However, it seems to have totally vanished off >> the net, including of course ftp.FreeBSD.ORG, apparently removed by the >> dark forces of the evil reptilian conspiracy who want to force everyone >> to run the modern crap. Has anyone saved a copy of the FreeBSD 2.2.8 >> distribution or some nearby version? TIA, >> >> MS >> > > From allain at panix.com Thu Oct 13 09:17:02 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:17:02 -0400 Subject: Original PDP-8 spares References: Message-ID: <001001c5d000$c8dc8600$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I would appreciate some advice... First, there were many types of PDP-8 made, so recording the part numbers for the buyers is important to their making decision to buy. Certainly apply this to the "logic board" category. What are the codes on them? Typically there is a one-letter,four-digits code printed on the top. For other parts, the number strings will be a little harder to find, but important. Every thing you identify will increase in value because it decreases the time and money the buyer could waste. > From the nameplates it seems to have had a > serial number in the late 700's. Good, keep recording these numbers. John A. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 13 09:42:29 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:42:29 -0400 Subject: Looking for ancient FreeBSD Message-ID: <0IOA008OVZGKFVH0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> The oldest set I have is 2.2.6 the 4cd set. It's solid enough and useful that I never tried later. I keep the set as my backup case the system needs a new drive. Allison > >Subject: Re: Looking for ancient FreeBSD > From: William Pechter > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:35:47 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >I've got a set back to 1.0.2 if anyone needs it... IIRC I also rolled >out a 1.1.5.1 or was it 1.5.1 set just before the mandatory move to 2.0 >and the removal of the AT&T embargo'd files. > >Bill > >Jay West wrote: > >> if you can't find it... I'm sure I have the cd here somewhere. I think >> I have a complete set of freebsd distro cd's back to 2.0. >> >> Jay >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Sokolov" >> >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 3:37 PM >> Subject: Looking for ancient FreeBSD >> >> >>> Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, >>> >>> This is almost Classic - I'm looking for a place to download an old >>> version of FreeBSD, specifically the last release of the 2.2.x branch, >>> which I think was 2.2.8. However, it seems to have totally vanished off >>> the net, including of course ftp.FreeBSD.ORG, apparently removed by the >>> dark forces of the evil reptilian conspiracy who want to force everyone >>> to run the modern crap. Has anyone saved a copy of the FreeBSD 2.2.8 >>> distribution or some nearby version? TIA, >>> >>> MS >>> >> >> From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 13 09:55:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 07:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC Collection on eBay In-Reply-To: <200510130125.j9D1PoAL089721@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Gil Carrick wrote: > Portland Oregon > > 8708420717 > > I guess the bicycle is included! ;) Why do these people even bother? It's not even worth the eBay fees nor the time it took him to write up the listing. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Oct 13 09:58:43 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:58:43 -0400 Subject: Old (1980s) Computer Giveaway, UK, North West In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434E7623.5000605@mdrconsult.com> Chris wrote: > 1x Tandon 286/N I'm in the US, and not where I can check, but I'm fairly certain I have MS-DOS and Windows/286 for this machine, in the Tandon packaging and with original docs. The Windows package is still shrinkwrapped. If whoever takes this wants the software, let me know. Doc From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 13 09:57:00 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 07:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC Collection on eBay In-Reply-To: <000301c5cf95$92c97480$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > I recognize that garage. It's Sellam's house! Please, you insult me. My garage KIND OF used to look like that before my collection outgrew it and moved to a warehouse. In any event, I don't store computers in my house. At least not like that. This guy apparently never heard of an invention called "shelving". -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 13 10:08:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <434E0FFB.4D6555E3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Brent Hilpert wrote: > (.. got two of them, but they don't work simply connected back-to-back, > have to figure out what was in the 'cloud' in between, someday.) When you figure it out, let me know and we can send old school faxes to each other ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 13 10:32:28 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:32:28 +0100 Subject: PC Collection on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434E7E0C.5010909@yahoo.co.uk> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > > >>I recognize that garage. It's Sellam's house! > > > Please, you insult me. My garage KIND OF used to look like that before my > collection outgrew it and moved to a warehouse. > > In any event, I don't store computers in my house. You just live in the "warehouse", right? ;-) From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Oct 13 10:41:57 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:41:57 -0400 Subject: PC Collection on eBay References: Message-ID: <004701c5d00c$a5249430$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 10:57 AM Subject: RE: PC Collection on eBay > On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > > > I recognize that garage. It's Sellam's house! > > Please, you insult me. My garage KIND OF used to look like that before my > collection outgrew it and moved to a warehouse. > > In any event, I don't store computers in my house. At least not like > that. This guy apparently never heard of an invention called "shelving". > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival Since you probably have 2 of everything (and spend your spare time building an ark waiting for the next great flood), what machines do you still get into messing with for fun? From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 13 13:28:16 2005 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:28:16 -0700 Subject: So I been looking for an 8 inch floppy drive... Message-ID: <1h4dboy.1g5wfv815mob5oM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> But it needs to be double sided. Does anyone know if this is a double sided floppy drive: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8708388143&ssPageName =ADME:B:SS:US:1 I have about 150 8 inch disks to image and I am also hoping someone can help me wire such a drive to a catweasel. -- tim lindner tlindner at ix.netcom.com Bright From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Thu Oct 13 13:44:03 2005 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:44:03 -0500 Subject: Need a driver: Intel PCMCIA Flash card Message-ID: Type I cards are thinner than Type II which are thinner than Type III. If you look at at Type II card, you will notice that it is thinner on three sides than in the middle. The thin part, which acts as the card guide, retains the Type I size specifications. Thus, you can use a Type I card in a Type II slot. The types should not be confused with the PCMCIA electrical standards, which used a different (arabic) numbering system. Most "current" PCMCIA cards (such as an XJack modem or 3Com network card) are Type II and PCMCIA 2.0. Type I came out first, so many SRAM cards are Type I. For example, the first Poqet SRAM cards are Type I in size, but used a pre-PCMCIA 1.0 protocol. Later Poqets were PCMCIA 1.0 compliant. The HPLX 95 palmtop is PCMCIA 1.0 compliant (IIRC) and can read either Type I or Type II SRAM cards, but needs a driver for using Flash cards -- it came out a little later than the Poqet and is more compliant with the early PCMCIA standards. Windows through Win 98 can handle SRAM cards with a couple of device drivers (CARDDRV.SYS is one) installed. I forget the exact drivers needed, but just search in the Windows Help for SRAM to find the information. Win XP seems to have dropped support for SRAM cards. At least some Intel flash cards used a different format than other flash cards, such as SunDisk/SanDisk, so the two types are not compatible. Bob Message: 18 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:24:36 -0400 From: Sridhar Ayengar Subject: Re: Need a driver: Intel PCMCIA Flash card To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <434DA944.30707 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 10/12/05, Simon Fryer wrote: > >>I am guessing, by looking at the size of the card, this is a Type II >>card. Most PCMCIA card readers fitted to laptops and PCs will only >>read Type III PCMCIA memory cards. > > >Perhaps you have an off-by-one error? > >Most recent laptops only have a single Type II slot, but many Pentium >laptops have a "dual Type II/Type III socket" meaning you can use two >Type II cards simultaneously or one Type III (the thickness of the >card blocks the upper slot) > >Type I cards were strange and most semi-modern stuff doesn't support >them, AFAIK. But aren't most of those Intel Series 2b cards Type I? I mean the ones that hold IOS images in slightly older Ciscos. As far as I can tell, they're just a bit thinner than your average ethernet/wireless/etc card. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 13 04:43:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:43:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board In-Reply-To: <200510122331.45909.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Oct 12, 5 11:31:45 pm Message-ID: > > This reminds me of an IBM colour teerminal that I rescued about 10 [...] > > Somewhat suprisingly for IBM, it was an ASCII unit. > > Are you sure about that? It sounds a lot like the coax or twinax It will take me some time to find it, but I seem to remember some kind of character table (or maybe the control codes it recognised) on that quick reference card, and it looked decidedly ASCII. > terminals that IBM made to go with 3270-controllers or AS/400s > (respectively). The ones I've seen which match your description had an > RS-232 for a printer connection, but did their main comms through the > coax or twinax port out the back. I guess it might be ASCII but > probably isn't an RS-232 terminal. Again from waht I remember, there was no twinax connector or anything like that, just a DB25, which certainly looked to be RS232. I am pretty sure that was the host interface. I will have to try to fig it out (it's small enough that I've forgotten where I put it... and check for you -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 13 04:39:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:39:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <0IOA00L3D25ARH20@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Oct 12, 5 10:42:47 pm Message-ID: > >The _drive_ is HD, I am not sure what the controller can do, though. The > >suffix letters of Teac drive numbers seem to indicate the specs as > >follows : > > > >A : 40 cylinder single-sided > >B : 40 cyclinder double sided > >C : 77 cylinder single sided (??? I have never seen this) > >D : 77 cylinder double sided (??? or this) > >E : 80 cylinder single sided > >F : 80 cylinder double sided > > 300 rpm only > > >G : 80 cylinder double sided, 360RPM, high density (1.2M for PCs) > > Does both 300 and 360. (can replace the E and F with correct jumpers). I am not convinced of that. I think 'G' implies 360RM. The drive in question is a 'GFR', thus having the capabilites of both the 'G' and the 'F', in other words both 360 and 300 rpm. > > >H : 80 cylinder double sided, 300RPM, high density (1.44M for PCs) > > Never seen an FD55H. No, but the same suffix letters are used on 3.5" drives too. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 13 13:52:49 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:52:49 -0700 Subject: So I been looking for an 8 inch floppy drive... In-Reply-To: <1h4dboy.1g5wfv815mob5oM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> References: <1h4dboy.1g5wfv815mob5oM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <200510131152490390.1004116F@10.0.0.252> On 10/13/2005 at 11:28 AM tlindner at ix.netcom.com wrote: >But it needs to be double sided. Does anyone know if this is a double >sided floppy drive: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8708388143&ssPageName >=ADME:B:SS:US:1 > >I have about 150 8 inch disks to image and I am also hoping someone can >help me wire such a drive to a catweasel. It's a single-sided drive. The FD-200 is the double-sided version. Look at: http://www.arts-attic.com/ebay1/images1/mvc-737f.jpg Note that on the lower-right part of the board that there's only one white connector connected to the black head cable. Note also, that the connector position immediately above that connector is blank. --Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 13 14:09:56 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:09:56 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IOB00M6XBU8L3K0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:39:21 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >The _drive_ is HD, I am not sure what the controller can do, though. The >> >suffix letters of Teac drive numbers seem to indicate the specs as >> >follows : >> > >> >A : 40 cylinder single-sided >> >B : 40 cyclinder double sided >> >C : 77 cylinder single sided (??? I have never seen this) >> >D : 77 cylinder double sided (??? or this) >> >E : 80 cylinder single sided >> >F : 80 cylinder double sided >> >> 300 rpm only >> >> >G : 80 cylinder double sided, 360RPM, high density (1.2M for PCs) >> >> Does both 300 and 360. (can replace the E and F with correct jumpers). > >I am not convinced of that. I think 'G' implies 360RM. The drive in >question is a 'GFR', thus having the capabilites of both the 'G' and the >'F', in other words both 360 and 300 rpm. I am certain of the GFR, I have maybe 8 spares and 5 in use to confirm it with. Dec use that drive in the VAXMATE at 1.2mb and as RX33 in uPDP-11 at 400/800KB (low speed) units I've used for both are exact same units. one oddity of the FD55GFR series is I have at least 5 different PC board patterns that function the same, they are of different date codes. I have also used them in my S100 system for the infrequent DSQD 780kb CP/M format that is compatable with my Kaypro 4/84 with Advent turborom. I also have a supply of FD55B, E and F series drives as spares and in use My three Visual 1050s have the FD55E in them. My knowledge is first hand. Read the data for that drive and you will see that FD55GFR is a DUAL speed drive. >> >H : 80 cylinder double sided, 300RPM, high density (1.44M for PCs) >> >> Never seen an FD55H. > >No, but the same suffix letters are used on 3.5" drives too. I would have guessed it was 3.5" too. Allison From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 14:26:03 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:26:03 -0400 Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434EB4CB.3080908@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Again from waht I remember, there was no twinax connector or anything > like that, just a DB25, which certainly looked to be RS232. I am pretty > sure that was the host interface. Ok. The 3270-series are coax SNA EBCDIC terminals mostly used with mainframes. The 5250-series are twinax EBCDIC terminals mostly used with midrange systems. The 3150-series are RS-232 ASCII terminals mostly used with RS/6000's. Peace... Sridhar From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Oct 13 14:37:16 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:37:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM System/34 with diskettes & documentation available in Iowa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > It is with some sadness that I must offer up my System/34 to fellow > collectors. I have never gotten a 220v hookup for it, and I need the space > it lives in (my garage) for this coming winter. If the time runs out on the S/34, and it is headed for the scrap yard, I could use the boards and media. I have an S/34, but I have not started to play with it. S/34 - apparently one of those forgotten machines... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 13 14:38:43 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:38:43 -0700 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510131238430670.102E1857@10.0.0.252> On 10/12/2005 at 5:18 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >C : 77 cylinder single sided (??? I have never seen this) >D : 77 cylinder double sided (??? or this) I strongly suspect that those are 100 tpi drives. Cheers, Chuck From jcwren at jcwren.com Thu Oct 13 14:38:47 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:38:47 -0400 Subject: A few items for sale Message-ID: <434EB7C7.2050608@jcwren.com> Some of these items may interest folks. http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZjcwren --jc From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Oct 13 14:47:35 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <434EB7C7.2050608@jcwren.com> Message-ID: > Some of these items may interest folks. > > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZjcwren Or Not? How about a clue as to what they are before making us go and look... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From Gary.Messick at ngc.com Thu Oct 13 15:06:53 2005 From: Gary.Messick at ngc.com (Messick, Gary L (Space Technology)) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:06:53 -0700 Subject: A few items for sale Message-ID: <2F52145AAA91AD49BD47CC685800F70F0151A98C@XCGC3006.northgrum.com> > > > Some of these items may interest folks. > > > > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZjcwren > > Or Not? > > How about a clue as to what they are before making us go and look... > One of the items is a pretty nice collection of early 8-bit computers w/software. I do have to point out that his "Z-100" is an H/Z-89/90 Z-80 system though! For pick-up only near Atlanta From jcwren at jcwren.com Thu Oct 13 15:23:51 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:23:51 -0400 Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434EC257.4080803@jcwren.com> Sorry. I know that clicking a link is just *so* hard. :) --jc William Donzelli wrote: >>Some of these items may interest folks. >> >> http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZjcwren >> >> > >Or Not? > >How about a clue as to what they are before making us go and look... > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 13 15:33:21 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <434EC257.4080803@jcwren.com> from "J.C. Wren" at Oct 13, 2005 04:23:51 PM Message-ID: <200510132033.j9DKXL7c014483@onyx.spiritone.com> > Sorry. I know that clicking a link is just *so* hard. :) > > --jc Not everyone reads email with an email client where you can "just" click on the link. For that matter, not everyone on this list reads email on a computer with a web browser (or at least one that will work with the eBay site. After all, aren't we all a bunch of Techno-Ludites :^) Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 13 15:50:26 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <434E0FFB.4D6555E3@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> <200510111503300309.0665EBDA@10.0.0.252> <434E0FFB.4D6555E3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20051013134830.G37474@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Brent Hilpert wrote: > (.. got two of them, but they don't work simply connected back-to-back, have to > figure out what was in the 'cloud' in between, someday.) power They might also be dependent on certain "signals", such as getting a dial tone before willing to originate a call. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Oct 13 16:00:21 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:00:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: luddites! (was: Re: A few items for sale) In-Reply-To: <200510132033.j9DKXL7c014483@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <434EC257.4080803@jcwren.com> from "J.C. Wren" at Oct 13, 2005 04:23:51 PM <200510132033.j9DKXL7c014483@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4744.192.168.0.2.1129237221.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Thu, October 13, 2005 9:33 pm, Zane H. Healy said: > After all, aren't we all a bunch of Techno-Ludites :^) Indeed! I'm reading this via the gift of wet string and stone cups chiselled out by a wizened old bloke in a loincloth who's also chiselling the letters in this email on stone tablets. Naturally he's using 8 bits of stone to make the tablets, and he sometimes has to stop work to clear cockroaches from his workplace when they get in the way. For temporary storage he's using a grid of fake comedy breasts laid out in a 32x32 pattern which he's calling 'cor! Mammary' This means nothing to me. Nor does the percussion instruments he has full of bits and the chunks he's removed from fruit using his mouth that he's calling 'drums storage'. I'm writing this on papyrus which will be read by a specially trained cuckoo and left as 'little messages' in the stone cups, these little messages can be thought of as 'c-pu' for simplicity. His wife will etch translations of the c-pu on her own bits of sticky-backed plastic strips we shall call 'maggie-tape' since her name is Margaret. I'll stop now :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 16:22:17 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:22:17 -0400 Subject: luddites! In-Reply-To: <4744.192.168.0.2.1129237221.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <434EC257.4080803@jcwren.com> from "J.C. Wren" at Oct 13, 2005 04:23:51 PM <200510132033.j9DKXL7c014483@onyx.spiritone.com> <4744.192.168.0.2.1129237221.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <434ED009.8000906@gmail.com> Witchy wrote: > On Thu, October 13, 2005 9:33 pm, Zane H. Healy said: > > >>After all, aren't we all a bunch of Techno-Ludites :^) > > > Indeed! I'm reading this via the gift of wet string and stone cups > chiselled out by a wizened old bloke in a loincloth who's also chiselling > the letters in this email on stone tablets. Naturally he's using 8 bits of > stone to make the tablets, and he sometimes has to stop work to clear > cockroaches from his workplace when they get in the way. For temporary > storage he's using a grid of fake comedy breasts laid out in a 32x32 > pattern which he's calling 'cor! Mammary' This means nothing to me. Nor > does the percussion instruments he has full of bits and the chunks he's > removed from fruit using his mouth that he's calling 'drums storage'. > > I'm writing this on papyrus which will be read by a specially trained > cuckoo and left as 'little messages' in the stone cups, these little > messages can be thought of as 'c-pu' for simplicity. His wife will etch > translations of the c-pu on her own bits of sticky-backed plastic strips > we shall call 'maggie-tape' since her name is Margaret. > > I'll stop now :) Thank you. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 13 16:34:33 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:34:33 -0500 Subject: Spotted at local surplus (STL) - IBM, SGI Message-ID: <000501c5d03d$e7773960$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Been so busy with work, finally took some "me time" and went to the local scrapper/junkyard/surplus place and noticed these items there: SGI Impact Indigo II (probably about six of them) SGI Indy R5000 (probably about six of them) IBM 3480 If someone has interest, let me know. Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 13 16:32:57 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:32:57 +0100 Subject: luddites! In-Reply-To: <4744.192.168.0.2.1129237221.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <434EC257.4080803@jcwren.com> from "J.C. Wren" at Oct 13, 2005 04:23:51 PM <200510132033.j9DKXL7c014483@onyx.spiritone.com> <4744.192.168.0.2.1129237221.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <434ED289.5070102@yahoo.co.uk> Witchy wrote: > On Thu, October 13, 2005 9:33 pm, Zane H. Healy said: > > >>After all, aren't we all a bunch of Techno-Ludites :^) > > > Indeed! I'm reading this via the gift of wet string and stone cups > chiselled out by a wizened old bloke in a loincloth who's also chiselling > the letters in this email on stone tablets. I'm thinking you can keep those two PERQs - I'm not sure that I want to go anywhere near your house any more! ;) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 13 16:56:43 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <434EB7C7.2050608@jcwren.com> References: <434EB7C7.2050608@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <20051013144608.R37474@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, J.C. Wren wrote: > Some of these items may interest folks. > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZjcwren I copied the URL to a piece of paper, shut down the email machine (which temporarily is incapable of running a browser), took the machine off of the table, set up and booted the machine that has a working web browser but no email, shut it back down and switched the modem, rebooted it, checked out the URL (which is for 1972 Motorola databooks, wire-wrap prototype board in 14 x 15" frame, Intel software for 8096, and JCWren's collection at $510 (reserve not met)) BTW, depending on MODEL, those Micropolis 5.25" drives are likely to be 77 track 100 TPI, NOT "normal" 720K. Then I switched computers back again. A short statement along with the URL about what the hell it was about would have been more convenient. Then I would have waited until this afternoon, when I will be alone in a room with 36 XP machines running current software. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 13 17:04:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC Collection on eBay In-Reply-To: <434E7E0C.5010909@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > In any event, I don't store computers in my house. > > You just live in the "warehouse", right? ;-) My wife would never go for that (yes, I've suggested it ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 13 08:07:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:07:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <0IOB00M6XBU8L3K0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Oct 13, 5 03:09:56 pm Message-ID: > > > > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:39:21 +0100 (BST) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >> >The _drive_ is HD, I am not sure what the controller can do, though. The > >> >suffix letters of Teac drive numbers seem to indicate the specs as > >> >follows : > >> > > >> >A : 40 cylinder single-sided > >> >B : 40 cyclinder double sided > >> >C : 77 cylinder single sided (??? I have never seen this) > >> >D : 77 cylinder double sided (??? or this) > >> >E : 80 cylinder single sided > >> >F : 80 cylinder double sided > >> > >> 300 rpm only > >> > >> >G : 80 cylinder double sided, 360RPM, high density (1.2M for PCs) > >> > >> Does both 300 and 360. (can replace the E and F with correct jumpers). > > > >I am not convinced of that. I think 'G' implies 360RM. The drive in > >question is a 'GFR', thus having the capabilites of both the 'G' and the > >'F', in other words both 360 and 300 rpm. > > I am certain of the GFR, I have maybe 8 spares and 5 in use to confirm it I am also certain about the GFR. I agree with you. The GFR is a dual speed drive, 360 rpm and 300rpm. What I am saying is that the letter 'G' as a suffix indicates a 360rpm drive. The letter 'F' indicates a 300 rpm drive (both being 80 cylinder double-sided). So both G and F mean a dual speed drive. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 13 17:06:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC Collection on eBay In-Reply-To: <004701c5d00c$a5249430$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > Since you probably have 2 of everything (and spend your spare time building > an ark waiting for the next great flood), what machines do you still get > into messing with for fun? With some regret I must say I don't do it for fun these days, but for money. It's not that I'm just in it for the money, but between earning a living and all my other responsibilities, I just don't have the time to play with them anymore :( But someday... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spc at conman.org Thu Oct 13 17:09:21 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:09:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <200510132033.j9DKXL7c014483@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 13, 2005 01:33:21 PM Message-ID: <20051013220921.BDA1773029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Zane H. Healy once stated: > > > Sorry. I know that clicking a link is just *so* hard. :) > > > > --jc > > Not everyone reads email with an email client where you can "just" click on > the link. For that matter, not everyone on this list reads email on a > computer with a web browser (or at least one that will work with the eBay > site. And some of us are reading email with an email client that doesn't support MIME (so I usually see just how bloated emails are getting). -spc (Who does use a modern email client at work, but boy, is it S-L-O-W) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 13 17:09:22 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:09:22 -0600 Subject: luddites! In-Reply-To: <434ED289.5070102@yahoo.co.uk> References: <434EC257.4080803@jcwren.com> from "J.C. Wren" at Oct 13, 2005 04:23:51 PM <200510132033.j9DKXL7c014483@onyx.spiritone.com> <4744.192.168.0.2.1129237221.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <434ED289.5070102@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <434EDB12.2000003@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Witchy wrote: > > I'm thinking you can keep those two PERQs - I'm not sure that I want > to go anywhere near your house any more! ;) > Only if he has a R/C **PteroDactyl* *or two around. :D From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 13 08:11:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:11:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <434EC257.4080803@jcwren.com> from "J.C. Wren" at Oct 13, 5 04:23:51 pm Message-ID: > > Sorry. I know that clicking a link is just *so* hard. :) It is if you read your mail off-line using an e-mail program. You have to dial up to the ISP, run a web browser and type in the link. Remember that in the UK, there is a minimum charge for a phonecall no matter how short. This doesn't matter to me if said call is actually worth making, but I am not going to waste time and money on the off-chance. Can people posting e-bay references _please_ say what they are. Something like 'PDP11 boards' or 'Apple //e + monitor' or something like that. Just so we know if it's possibly going to be of interest. -tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 13 17:27:48 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:27:48 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IOB0019PKZZ4GF1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:07:28 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> >> >F : 80 cylinder double sided >> >> >> >> 300 rpm only >> >> >> >> >G : 80 cylinder double sided, 360RPM, high density (1.2M for PCs) >> >> >> >> Does both 300 and 360. (can replace the E and F with correct jumpers). >> > >> >I am not convinced of that. I think 'G' implies 360RM. The drive in >> >question is a 'GFR', thus having the capabilites of both the 'G' and the >> >'F', in other words both 360 and 300 rpm. >> >> I am certain of the GFR, I have maybe 8 spares and 5 in use to confirm it > >I am also certain about the GFR. I agree with you. The GFR is a dual >speed drive, 360 rpm and 300rpm. > >What I am saying is that the letter 'G' as a suffix indicates a 360rpm >drive. The letter 'F' indicates a 300 rpm drive (both being 80 cylinder >double-sided). So both G and F mean a dual speed drive. No Tony, the 55F in single speed only. Now if you mean 55GF is dual speed you might be right by coincidence. However the second letter and third are for options to the basic drive such as door latch or media ready indicator. Allison From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Oct 13 17:39:22 2005 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:39:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <0IO8008D6XKGVR80@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IO8008D6XKGVR80@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > Another good choice is the 4" tall Dell Pizza boxes such as the 425/np > though 466/np. Theses are small, use PS2 connectors for keyboard > and mouse and the board supports most floppies (x2), IDE disks to 500mb > and S3 VGA video. There is room enough to add a CDrom or 5.25 floppy. I have 2 of these, and they're quite nice. You can run 25, 50, 33 and 60 MHz chips in them with the right rejumpering (so my 425s are running 66Mhz now). Dell even had the motherboard docs online, last I checked. There's only one problem: the BIOS won't boot off any non-FAT formatted floppies, though it's happy to boot anything off the HD. This makes putting a 'modern' OS (linux, in my case) on them a bit of a challenge. I've stuffed one full of ne2k, intel and 3com cards and use it as a firewall. Alexey From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 13 17:58:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" Message-ID: ...or Another Reason Why I Fricking Hate eBay Sorry this is so long, but it's worth a read in case you ever happen upon an item being offered by this seller. Read this before you get burned. So a couple weeks ago I asked one of my employees to go on eBay and find an external power supply for this cute little Dell P4 system that I got in without the P/S. He dutifully went onto eBay, found the most reasonably priced item with a Buy It Now, and bought it for me. Later, when I went to pay for the item, I noticed that the seller had 26000+ feedback total, with 1700 postive and 34 negative just in the past month. If it were me, I would've avoided this seller like a foul odor in the air, but my naive teenage employee doesn't know better. So anyway, from past experience, I figured there was probably a 50/50 chance this would go well, because like, what are the odds that a wall wart (more like a big slab) would be bad? So I went ahead and sent the PayPal payment. A week later (yesterday) I receive my item. The first thing I did before plugging it into my computer was check the voltages, because even though the seller claimed it was "TESTED WORKING, NO DOA", I didn't want to take the chance of this thing zapping the computer. So what do you know, I get no voltage. Then I notice the LED is out. I try another power cord but it's pretty plainly dead. Oh bother. I called the seller this morning (before the generous 7 day "DOA warranty" runs out) and get some lady that tells me someone will call me back. Later in the morning I get an e-mail explaining their RMA procedure. So now I'm being required to ship the item back to them on my dime. I think the conclusion of this warning can be aptly made by simply posting some of the negative feedback this seller has gotten in the past week ([-] means negative feedback, [N] means neutral): [-] Won item, didn't have item, ordered, never received, recd full refund 4wks later - geb249 Oct-13-05 11:16 (5811227432) [-] The computer doenst work!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - adilsonmarin Oct-12-05 12:21 (5232544487) Reply by bobsbid1: Windows you need to install windows, or better yet get a mac:)) [N] no coment - mcnabbster Oct-11-05 19:02 (5809582719) Reply by bobsbid1: seems a shame to neg him for a misspelled feedback oh what the... heres your neg [-] buy blinking book-ends here - mcnabbster Oct-11-05 19:01 (6803142818) Reply by bobsbid1: get them while they are hot!! they wont last at these prices remember you need 2 [-] DIDNT GET THE PRICE YOU WANTED SO THAT WHY YOU DIDNT SHIP? STAY AWAY FRAUD.!!!! - thaiartcrafts_com Oct-11-05 16:05 (5811566861) Reply by bobsbid1: we got a grand for a 50.00 item and he is mad because we lost it? [-] GEFORCE 4 TI 4200 DOSE?NT WORK NOT FUNCTIONAL - NOT DOA - BEWARE - goodfriday Oct-11-05 14:48 (8703050567) Reply by bobsbid1: his spell checker does'nt work either:) do you think it was his kumputer? Follow-up by goodfriday: There policy should have read -AS IS- 7yrs100% on ebay you decide. [N] Excellent selection & products, fast delivery, Poor customer service - cdnbud Oct-07-05 08:32 (5219793883) Reply by bobsbid1: This is a self sevice site would you mind picking on yourself elsewhere? [-] BUYERS BEWARE! Totally mis represented item and will not return. DO NOT BUY! - bhickster2ir3m Oct-07-05 04:48 (5812863214) Reply by bobsbid1: WARNING NON READERS! IT IS NOT TO LATE** STAY IN SCHOOL** And this is just within the LAST 7 DAYS. Notice that he automatically leaves negative feedback for the buyer if the buyer leaves him either negative or even NEUTRAL feedback. Needless to say, I strenuously suggest you do NOT attempt to do business with this lout. With all the revenues eBay generates from this junk dealer, I doubt they'll do anything about him, which is why I felt compelled to post a warning to the list. With all the business they do, I figure at least one other person here might benefit from my experience. As for me, I sent the seller an e-mail asking them to just refund my money and be done with it. If that doesn't work, I'm just going to go straight to PayPal with my complaint and try to get a straight refund. It'll be more productive than trying to go through with the seller's absolutely ridiculous RMA process. The auction in question: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6807210038 You've been warned. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Oct 13 18:05:03 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:05:03 -0400 Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <20051013144608.R37474@shell.lmi.net> References: <434EB7C7.2050608@jcwren.com> <434EB7C7.2050608@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051013190244.049b6b18@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: >[snippage of happity stuff checking links...] [[ You don't have lynx on your email machine? I find it a handy critter to have around... that and Mutt. ;-) ]] >...when I will be alone in a room with 36 XP machines running >current software. Poor bastard. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 13 18:18:40 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:18:40 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IOB008DLNCRR522@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: Alexey Toptygin > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:39:22 +0000 (UTC) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > >> Another good choice is the 4" tall Dell Pizza boxes such as the 425/np >> though 466/np. Theses are small, use PS2 connectors for keyboard >> and mouse and the board supports most floppies (x2), IDE disks to 500mb >> and S3 VGA video. There is room enough to add a CDrom or 5.25 floppy. > >I have 2 of these, and they're quite nice. You can run 25, 50, 33 and 60 >MHz chips in them with the right rejumpering (so my 425s are running 66Mhz >now). I have done the same thing with 425s. all mine are DX/66. >Dell even had the motherboard docs online, last I checked. There's >only one problem: the BIOS won't boot off any non-FAT formatted floppies, Mine do! There is a bios selection for that. The bios in these either boots the floppy or hard disk but doesn't switch well if HD is selected. Cdroms work well in them too. >though it's happy to boot anything off the HD. This makes putting a >'modern' OS (linux, in my case) on them a bit of a challenge. I've stuffed >one full of ne2k, intel and 3com cards and use it as a firewall. I've run DOS, win3.1, Linux, Win95b, Nt4/server on these with 32m of ram. Not super fast with a 486/66 as there is no external cache but remarkably solid. Drives larger than 500mb must have a 500mb primary boot partition but I have the NT4 system using a 4.3gb as NT4 fits easily in 500mb and handles the remaining partition after boot as "d:". Allison From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 13 18:18:18 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:18:18 -0700 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510131618180078.10F71C46@10.0.0.252> On 10/13/2005 at 3:58 PM Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >...or Another Reason Why I Fricking Hate eBay Sellam, you have to choose your sellers carefully. Last week, I bought an Overland Data 9 track drive. It arrived with the tape door plastic broken. I wrote the seller and was issued an IMMEDATE (and I do mean just that--it was about 3 minutes after my email) refund of the item+shipping = everything that I paid. Seller apologized for the problem and told me to keep the drive. I'll repair the door and the drive will have cost me nothing. I don't buy from sellers wtih negative feedback. There's a neat tool for Firefox that lets you see negative feedback for any seller with just a mouse click. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 13 18:20:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 00:20:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <0IOB0019PKZZ4GF1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Oct 13, 5 06:27:48 pm Message-ID: > >> >> >F : 80 cylinder double sided > >> >> > >> >> 300 rpm only > >> >> > >> >> >G : 80 cylinder double sided, 360RPM, high density (1.2M for PCs) > >> >> > >> >> Does both 300 and 360. (can replace the E and F with correct jumpers). > >> > > >> >I am not convinced of that. I think 'G' implies 360RM. The drive in > >> >question is a 'GFR', thus having the capabilites of both the 'G' and the > >> >'F', in other words both 360 and 300 rpm. > >> > >> I am certain of the GFR, I have maybe 8 spares and 5 in use to confirm it > > > >I am also certain about the GFR. I agree with you. The GFR is a dual > >speed drive, 360 rpm and 300rpm. > > > >What I am saying is that the letter 'G' as a suffix indicates a 360rpm > >drive. The letter 'F' indicates a 300 rpm drive (both being 80 cylinder > >double-sided). So both G and F mean a dual speed drive. > > No Tony, the 55F in single speed only. Now if you mean 55GF is dual speed Agreed. F means 300 rpm 80 cylinder 2 heads. > you might be right by coincidence. However the second letter and third are > for options to the basic drive such as door latch or media ready indicator. The third letter, sure. But I thought single speed/density drives had just 2 letters (type and options), dual speed/dual density drives had 3. I've certainly seen HFR (or some other 3 letter combination starting with 'HD') for 3.5" drives capable of 720K and 1.44M. -tony From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 18:41:47 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:41:47 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am not familiar with those new ATX style power supplies, but won't you need a singal to turn the power on? If you don't hook it to a motherboard, you might need another way to provide the signal. vax, 9000 From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 13 18:44:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <200510131618180078.10F71C46@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/13/2005 at 3:58 PM Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >...or Another Reason Why I Fricking Hate eBay > > Sellam, you have to choose your sellers carefully. Sigh. I clearly explained how it came to be that I ended up buying from this seller. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Oct 13 18:48:51 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:48:51 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" References: <200510131618180078.10F71C46@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <00ef01c5d050$aa0cbdd0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 7:18 PM Subject: Re: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" > On 10/13/2005 at 3:58 PM Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >...or Another Reason Why I Fricking Hate eBay > > Sellam, you have to choose your sellers carefully. Last week, I bought an > Overland Data 9 track drive. It arrived with the tape door plastic broken. > I wrote the seller and was issued an IMMEDATE (and I do mean just that--it > was about 3 minutes after my email) refund of the item+shipping = > everything that I paid. Seller apologized for the problem and told me to > keep the drive. I'll repair the door and the drive will have cost me > nothing. > > I don't buy from sellers wtih negative feedback. There's a neat tool for > Firefox that lets you see negative feedback for any seller with just a > mouse click. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > I was looking at a stack of SCA HD's that person has currently on ebay, something about them bothered me and I didn't bid. Most places that offer DOA warranty do ask you to send the item back before you get a credit (and they don't pay for shipping or refund the original shipping). Places with a policy like that usually sell the item dirt cheap and charge a crazy shipping fee so even if you do want a refund you get very little back. If a deal looks too good it probably is. From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Oct 13 15:00:20 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:00:20 +0000 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051013235305.FONZ28424.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > I am not familiar with those new ATX style power supplies, but won't > you need a singal to turn the power on? If you don't hook it to a > motherboard, you might need another way to provide the signal. > > vax, 9000 Power_ON is pulled low to turn on ATX spec. Let it go, PSU shuts off. I use a jumper to short ground to usually green wire (check!) according to the wiring info on the PSU sticker. Cheers, Wizard From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 13 18:55:50 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:55:50 -0600 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434EF406.6010205@jetnet.ab.ca> 9000 VAX wrote: >I am not familiar with those new ATX style power supplies, but won't >you need a singal to turn the power on? If you don't hook it to a >motherboard, you might need another way to provide the signal. > >vax, 9000 > > Check here for more on ATX supplies: http://web2.murraystate.edu/andy.batts/ps/powersupply.htm From gilcarrick at comcast.net Thu Oct 13 19:01:44 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:01:44 -0500 Subject: Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board In-Reply-To: <434EB4CB.3080908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510140014.j9E0ET1Z013506@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Ok. The 3270-series are coax SNA EBCDIC terminals mostly > used with mainframes. The 5250-series are twinax EBCDIC > terminals mostly used with midrange systems. The 3150-series > are RS-232 ASCII terminals mostly used with RS/6000's. All true, but the subject was not a 315x, it was a IBM 3197/D. It is a twin-ax terminal used with a midrange system - Sys/34, 36, 38, AS/400. It supports a local ASCII printer through a parallel port. See the following two web sites: http://www.argecy.com/3197.html http://www.moorgate.co.uk/products/workstations/Second%20User.htm Gil > > Peace... Sridhar From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 19:09:36 2005 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:09:36 -0700 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/13/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > ...or Another Reason Why I Fricking Hate eBay thanks for the long warning. This brings up the main warning to everyone about EBAY. they don't give a crap about anyone but the sellers here. I have had two fights with sellers over non ships and luckily even got my money back. but when I buy something I want it. Ebay should turn these assholes off for that if nothing else. and obviously one could see from the stench this guy generates that he needs to be turned off till he cleans up his act. Ebay tries to set on the fence like my cat used to. She would go get two other cats pissed off at her and run to where they'ed both go at each other, and she'd jump up on the fence while the fur flys. same with them. It's a load of crap that they dont fix idiots like this, but there are 1000 times worse there and they don't care about them either. jim From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 13 19:11:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" on eBay In-Reply-To: <00ef01c5d050$aa0cbdd0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > I was looking at a stack of SCA HD's that person has currently on ebay, > something about them bothered me and I didn't bid. You chose wisely. > Most places that offer DOA warranty do ask you to send the item back before > you get a credit (and they don't pay for shipping or refund the original > shipping). Places with a policy like that usually sell the item dirt cheap > and charge a crazy shipping fee so even if you do want a refund you get very > little back. Overall I paid $28 and change, which included $9 shipping via UPS (there's obviously more handling charges in that than shipping). The price of the P/S was $18.95. This was pretty commensurate with all the other listings (of which there are dozens for this model). It was basically just pick one and go with it, and my employee made an unfortunate choice. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 13 19:12:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, 9000 VAX wrote: > I am not familiar with those new ATX style power supplies, but won't > you need a singal to turn the power on? If you don't hook it to a > motherboard, you might need another way to provide the signal. Also, you mis-read my message. It's an external power supply (i.e. a wall wart, except it's the size of a small box). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Oct 13 19:14:52 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:14:52 -0400 Subject: luddites! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:22:17 EDT." <434ED009.8000906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510140014.j9E0EqcU008512@mwave.heeltoe.com> >>After all, aren't we all a bunch of Techno-Ludites :^) i haven't wasted any bandwidth *all day* so, I'd like to point out that the Ludites where not anti-technology. They were anti-loosing-your-job-due-to-technology. They didn't think it was right that 10 people working should become 3 people working just because a new machine was installed... (and, I think they had a point. I think economists are all smoking really good dope when they talk about mythical 'productivity gains') -brad From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Oct 13 19:24:47 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <200510131618180078.10F71C46@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > I don't buy from sellers wtih negative feedback. There's a neat tool for > Firefox that lets you see negative feedback for any seller with just a > mouse click. Remember also that some buyers can not be pleased asnd leave undeserved negative feedback. I recently was turned into Ebay for not shipping an item only seven days after payment was received - for a cross country shipment. I tried to explain that there is not an SR-71 hanging around Newark airport devoted just to get his goods across the country in a matter of hours. As we sellers like to say - there's one in every bunch. I am suprised with a fairly low percentage that bobsbids manages to stay in the Powersellers program. I thought the requirement was to have it maintained above 98 percent (mine is at 99.6 percent). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Oct 13 19:30:45 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:30:45 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051013195847.04176780@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that 9000 VAX may have mentioned these words: >I am not familiar with those new ATX style power supplies, Not ATX... think "laptop." There are some mini-ITX motherboards that use laptop-type power supplies - external, 1 or *maybe* 2 voltages on the pins, and an external LED to actually show if the sucker's got power & working. That is the dark LED that tells Sellam the PS (and in this case, PoS) is no worky. Very handy if you want a small, very quiet, yet somewhat powerful PC. Somewhat in this case means: Laptop < mini-ITX < Desktop PC I'm looking at one to build a new TiVo out of. JDR's got a decent deal on a VIA (think: "Used to been Cyrix") 1GHz box for <$300. Quiet is good when you want to watch TV. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 13 19:31:38 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:31:38 -0600 Subject: luddites! In-Reply-To: <200510140014.j9E0EqcU008512@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200510140014.j9E0EqcU008512@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <434EFC6A.7060503@jetnet.ab.ca> Brad Parker wrote: >They were anti-loosing-your-job-due-to-technology. They didn't think it >was right that 10 people working should become 3 people working just >because a new machine was installed... > > I can't think of were computers really had the most inpact other than word-processing and accounting. I think it was more the USA was not as inovative in small things but only large scale things. >(and, I think they had a point. I think economists are all smoking >really good dope when they talk about mythical 'productivity gains') > > > productivity gains = more $$ for management from my view point. >-brad > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Oct 13 19:47:17 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:47:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: luddites! In-Reply-To: <200510140014.j9E0EqcU008512@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200510140014.j9E0EqcU008512@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200510140055.UAA00700@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [Luddites] were anti-[losing]-your-job-due-to-technology. They > didn't think it was right that 10 people working should become 3 > people working just because a new machine was installed... > (and, I think they had a point. I'm not sure which side I agree with (which I suppose means I don't really agree with either side). To the right, I see no reason an employer should have to pay 10 people to do something today just because 10 people were needed to do it yesterday. But to the left, it can be, and often is, a societal evil in automating jobs out of existence. > I think economists are all smoking really good dope when they talk > about mythical 'productivity gains') I'm not so sure. I suspect it's a question of definition - how do you define "productivity"? If you take the na?ve definition and say that a factory's productivity is the amount of product it produces in a given amount of time, then yes, you can *easily* have productivity gains when automating a bunch of jobs out of existence. For more complex definitions of "productivity", I suspect similar things can still happen - after all, when all you measure is productivity, there are a whole bunch of things you *aren't* measuring. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cmurray at eagle.ca Thu Oct 13 20:56:15 2005 From: cmurray at eagle.ca (Cmurray) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:56:15 -0500 Subject: Luddite...aren't we all a bunch of Techno-Luddites Message-ID: <200510140056.j9E0uFnq062239@inferno.eagle.ca> A techno-luddite? How apropos! I like to question what technology gives us. Old computers or new. They can challenge us but that's as far as I care to go. Murray-- From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 13 19:57:40 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051013190244.049b6b18@mail.30below.com> References: <434EB7C7.2050608@jcwren.com> <434EB7C7.2050608@jcwren.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051013190244.049b6b18@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20051013175301.B48368@shell.lmi.net> > Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: > >[snippage of happity stuff checking links...] On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: > [[ You don't have lynx on your email machine? I find it a handy critter to > have around... that and Mutt. ;-) ]] I will once again, once I sort out what's going on with the machine. > >...when I will be alone in a room with 36 XP machines running > >current software. > Poor bastard. Yeah. But I don't have "administrator rights" on them, and I'd prob'ly get fired if I were to get caught bypassing security. But, they have TELNET, and I found ONE where the CMOS is set to permit booting from floppy! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 13 20:13:37 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:13:37 -0600 Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <20051013175301.B48368@shell.lmi.net> References: <434EB7C7.2050608@jcwren.com> <434EB7C7.2050608@jcwren.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051013190244.049b6b18@mail.30below.com> <20051013175301.B48368@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <434F0641.4080704@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: >Yeah. But I don't have "administrator rights" on them, and I'd prob'ly >get fired if I were to get caught bypassing security. >But, they have TELNET, and I found ONE where the CMOS is set to permit >booting from floppy! > > So are you TELNETing your email then? I think you can do it this way, but don't ask me the details. Ben Alias woodelf From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Thu Oct 13 20:15:06 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: luddites! In-Reply-To: <200510140014.j9E0EqcU008512@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Your message of "Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:22:17 EDT." <434ED009.8000906@gmail.com> <200510140014.j9E0EqcU008512@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <35036.207.71.246.177.1129252506.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> On Thu, October 13, 2005 5:14 pm, Brad Parker wrote: > > They were anti-loosing-your-job-due-to-technology. They didn't think it > was right that 10 people working should become 3 people working just > because a new machine was installed... > > (and, I think they had a point. I think economists are all smoking > really good dope when they talk about mythical 'productivity gains') Well, your own example proved the existance of productivity gains - 3 people with a machine could produce as much as 10 people without the machine, ergo the 3 people are more productive. If you give 9 of those workers the machines, and keep 1 around to do maintenance on the machines, the whole group is nearly 3x as productive. It doesn't necessarily lead to the loss of jobs. The cost of what you are making drops, and more people can afford to buy it. I, for one, am glad refridgerators no longer cost 6 month's salary. This is why we can sit around and discuss "classic" computers - if there were no productivity improvements (faster, cheaper) in computer technology, we'd still be using all that old stuff. Jeff From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Oct 13 20:24:24 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:24:24 -0500 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <00ef01c5d050$aa0cbdd0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20051013202424.76cb0fc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > I was looking at a stack of SCA HD's that person has currently on > > ebay, something about them bothered me and I didn't bid. > > You chose wisely. > The best approach to take is to treat eBay as a peer-to-peer marketplace. Anytime you buy used stuff from an outfit with a massive dose of boilerplate about policies, etc. on the bid page, you're dealing with a junk dealer who buys skids of trash from the back dock of a repair depot somewhere. I buy SCA drives and stuff like that when it appears to be coming from a 'sysadmin' somewhere who gets to 'junk out' the old machines at work and sells the drives for beer money. And from fellow enthusiasts. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 13 20:33:36 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <434F0641.4080704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <434EB7C7.2050608@jcwren.com> <434EB7C7.2050608@jcwren.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051013190244.049b6b18@mail.30below.com> <20051013175301.B48368@shell.lmi.net> <434F0641.4080704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051013182120.D48368@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, woodelf wrote: > So are you TELNETing your email then? > I think you can do it this way, but don't ask me the details. > Ben Alias woodelf Most of it, including this list. I have a shell account at my ISP that works reasonably well. Sometimes I can run lynx on the shell account, but it often won't work with eBay listings. But I need to use Outlook on XP for almost all of the college mail, since we have a lot of truly brain-dead administrators who send nothing but multi megabyte MS Weird .DOC files and PDF files, as attachments to messages that don't say ANYTHING other than "Look at the attachment". Usually the attachment will be a heavily formatted document with clip-art (sometimes ANIMATED!) in order to say something on the order of: "The curiclum (SIC!) committee meeting has been postponed until Tuesday." Oh well. In half an hour, my students will be here, and I'll explain to them how the PC BIOS handles keyboard input. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 13 20:36:22 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:36:22 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IOB00F7XTQ7JSE2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 00:20:23 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >> you might be right by coincidence. However the second letter and third are >> for options to the basic drive such as door latch or media ready indicator. > >The third letter, sure. But I thought single speed/density drives had >just 2 letters (type and options), dual speed/dual density drives had 3. >I've certainly seen HFR (or some other 3 letter combination starting with >'HD') for 3.5" drives capable of 720K and 1.44M. OK I have one so I know what it is. FD55BVR, care to guess? Also a FD55BFR? Hint neither are dual speed. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 13 20:41:00 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:41:00 -0400 Subject: luddites! Message-ID: <0IOB009LQTXXW482@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: luddites! > From: Brad Parker > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:14:52 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >>>After all, aren't we all a bunch of Techno-Ludites :^) > >i haven't wasted any bandwidth *all day* so, > >I'd like to point out that the Ludites where not anti-technology. > >They were anti-loosing-your-job-due-to-technology. They didn't think it >was right that 10 people working should become 3 people working just >because a new machine was installed... > >(and, I think they had a point. I think economists are all smoking >really good dope when they talk about mythical 'productivity gains') > >-brad What wasnt noticed by the displaced employees was the 7 that got bumpped went to making more machines, fixing them, selling them teaching those three left behind how to run them. Just a different view. With 35 years of high tech I've seen a few cycles and even displaced a few times. Allison From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 13 21:47:13 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:47:13 Subject: luddites! In-Reply-To: <200510140014.j9E0EqcU008512@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <"Your message of Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:22:17 EDT." <434ED009.8000906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051013214713.33177c5c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:14 PM 10/13/05 -0400, Brad wrote: > >>>After all, aren't we all a bunch of Techno-Ludites :^) > >i haven't wasted any bandwidth *all day* so, > >I'd like to point out that the Ludites where not anti-technology. > >They were anti-loosing-your-job-due-to-technology. They didn't think it >was right that 10 people working should become 3 people working just >because a new machine was installed... > >(and, I think they had a point. I think economists are all smoking >really good dope when they talk about mythical 'productivity gains') No you missed the point. It's real simple! An employer's gain is the employee's loss! So be very aware whenever big businees (or replubicans) talk about "gains"! It usually means that the workers are going to get screwed! Joe > >-brad > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 13 21:39:35 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:39:35 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051013213935.32e7825c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:58 PM 10/13/05 -0700, you wrote: > >...or Another Reason Why I Fricking Hate eBay The problem isn't E-bay. You should never have bid on this item IMO. He has 430 negatives in the last year alone! Even for someone with 26000 feedback rating that's too many. In fact, the 26000+ rating tells me that he's to busy to test the stuff or to give reasonable service to his customers. I've learned to stay away from sellers with HIGH transaction numbers. They usually won't answer E-mail and their stuff is untested and frequently poorly packed. All due to a lack of time caused by too many sales! Moe bad signs are his flipant responses to the negative feedback and his unfailing retaliatory negative feedback. Joe > >Sorry this is so long, but it's worth a read in case you ever happen upon >an item being offered by this seller. Read this before you get burned. > >So a couple weeks ago I asked one of my employees to go on eBay and find >an external power supply for this cute little Dell P4 system that I got >in without the P/S. He dutifully went onto eBay, found the most >reasonably priced item with a Buy It Now, and bought it for me. > >Later, when I went to pay for the item, I noticed that the seller had >26000+ feedback total, with 1700 postive and 34 negative just in the past >month. If it were me, I would've avoided this seller like a foul odor in >the air, but my naive teenage employee doesn't know better. > >So anyway, from past experience, I figured there was probably a 50/50 >chance this would go well, because like, what are the odds that a wall >wart (more like a big slab) would be bad? So I went ahead and sent the >PayPal payment. A week later (yesterday) I receive my item. The first >thing I did before plugging it into my computer was check the voltages, >because even though the seller claimed it was "TESTED WORKING, NO DOA", I >didn't want to take the chance of this thing zapping the computer. So >what do you know, I get no voltage. Then I notice the LED is out. I try >another power cord but it's pretty plainly dead. Oh bother. > >I called the seller this morning (before the generous 7 day "DOA warranty" >runs out) and get some lady that tells me someone will call me back. >Later in the morning I get an e-mail explaining their RMA procedure. So >now I'm being required to ship the item back to them on my dime. > >I think the conclusion of this warning can be aptly made by simply posting >some of the negative feedback this seller has gotten in the past week >([-] means negative feedback, [N] means neutral): > >[-] Won item, didn't have item, ordered, never received, recd full refund >4wks later - geb249 Oct-13-05 11:16 (5811227432) > >[-] The computer doenst work!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - adilsonmarin Oct-12-05 12:21 >(5232544487) >Reply by bobsbid1: Windows you need to install windows, or better >yet get a mac:)) > >[N] no coment - mcnabbster Oct-11-05 19:02 (5809582719) >Reply by bobsbid1: seems a shame to neg him for a misspelled feedback oh >what the... heres your neg > >[-] buy blinking book-ends here - mcnabbster Oct-11-05 19:01 (6803142818) >Reply by bobsbid1: get them while they are hot!! they wont last at >these prices remember you need 2 > >[-] DIDNT GET THE PRICE YOU WANTED SO THAT WHY YOU DIDNT SHIP? STAY AWAY >FRAUD.!!!! - thaiartcrafts_com Oct-11-05 16:05 (5811566861) >Reply by bobsbid1: we got a grand for a 50.00 item and he is mad >because we lost it? > >[-] GEFORCE 4 TI 4200 DOSE?NT WORK NOT FUNCTIONAL - NOT DOA - BEWARE - >goodfriday Oct-11-05 14:48 (8703050567) >Reply by bobsbid1: his spell checker does'nt work either:) do you >think it was his kumputer? >Follow-up by goodfriday: There policy should have read -AS IS- 7yrs100% on >ebay you decide. > >[N] Excellent selection & products, fast delivery, Poor customer service - >cdnbud Oct-07-05 08:32 (5219793883) >Reply by bobsbid1: This is a self sevice site would you mind picking on >yourself elsewhere? > >[-] BUYERS BEWARE! Totally mis represented item and will not return. DO >NOT BUY! - bhickster2ir3m Oct-07-05 04:48 (5812863214) >Reply by bobsbid1: WARNING NON READERS! IT IS NOT TO LATE** STAY IN >SCHOOL** > >And this is just within the LAST 7 DAYS. > >Notice that he automatically leaves negative feedback for the buyer if the >buyer leaves him either negative or even NEUTRAL feedback. > >Needless to say, I strenuously suggest you do NOT attempt to do business >with this lout. With all the revenues eBay generates from this junk >dealer, I doubt they'll do anything about him, which is why I felt >compelled to post a warning to the list. With all the business they do, >I figure at least one other person here might benefit from my experience. > >As for me, I sent the seller an e-mail asking them to just refund my money >and be done with it. If that doesn't work, I'm just going to go straight >to PayPal with my complaint and try to get a straight refund. It'll be >more productive than trying to go through with the seller's absolutely >ridiculous RMA process. > >The auction in question: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6807210038 > >You've been warned. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 20:58:52 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:58:52 -0400 Subject: Spotted at local surplus (STL) - IBM, SGI In-Reply-To: <000501c5d03d$e7773960$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000501c5d03d$e7773960$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <434F10DC.4060306@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > Been so busy with work, finally took some "me time" and went to the > local scrapper/junkyard/surplus place and noticed these items there: > > SGI Impact Indigo II (probably about six of them) > SGI Indy R5000 (probably about six of them) > > IBM 3480 > > If someone has interest, let me know. If the price is right, I'd be interested in one or more of those Indigo2's. Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 13 21:01:51 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:01:51 -0500 Subject: luddites! References: <"Your message of Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:22:17 EDT." <434ED009.8000906@gmail.com> <3.0.6.16.20051013214713.33177c5c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00cd01c5d063$3ecdedb0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Joe wrote.... > So be very aware whenever big businees (or replubicans) talk about > "gains"! It usually means that the workers are going to get screwed! Oh geeze *scrambles for the moderation button* From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 21:04:39 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:04:39 -0400 Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <20051013220921.BDA1773029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051013220921.BDA1773029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <434F1237.9060104@gmail.com> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Zane H. Healy once stated: > >>>Sorry. I know that clicking a link is just *so* hard. :) >>> >>> --jc >> >>Not everyone reads email with an email client where you can "just" click on >>the link. For that matter, not everyone on this list reads email on a >>computer with a web browser (or at least one that will work with the eBay >>site. > > > And some of us are reading email with an email client that doesn't support > MIME (so I usually see just how bloated emails are getting). > > -spc (Who does use a modern email client at work, but boy, is it S-L-O-W) If you think that's slow, you should try Lotus Notes. Peace... Sridhar From john at guntersville.net Thu Oct 13 21:09:09 2005 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:09:09 -0500 Subject: lost all my phone numbers :\ References: <013201c5cfa0$feb46780$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <434F1345.FB345D43@guntersville.net> Jay West wrote: > > Today I hit the wrong recessed button (of two) on my pdaphone.... goodbye > all phone numbers, email addresses, etc. > > My business contacts are easy to replace, but my classiccmp info isn't :\ > Many of you here I had home phone numbers and/or cellphone numbers, etc. Not > anymore. > > So, if you are sorry you ever gave me your number(s), just ignore this > email. Otherwise, email me your contact info OFFLIST please. This isn't a > solicitation for phone numbers I never had...just those here who I already > had the info for. > > Thanks! > > Jay West I know I sent you mine but you may not have put it on your pdaphone. Here it is again just in case. John C. Ellingboe 1432 Lusk St. Guntersville, AL 35976 (256) 571-0331 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Oct 13 21:23:40 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <20051013182120.D48368@shell.lmi.net> References: <434EB7C7.2050608@jcwren.com> <434EB7C7.2050608@jcwren.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051013190244.049b6b18@mail.30below.com> <20051013175301.B48368@shell.lmi.net> <434F0641.4080704@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051013182120.D48368@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510140224.WAA15136@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Oh well. > In half an hour, my students will be here, and I'll explain to them > how the PC BIOS handles keyboard input. "Poorly"? :-) Okay, okay, cheap shot.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 13 21:29:14 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:29:14 -0700 Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: <20051013202424.76cb0fc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <00ef01c5d050$aa0cbdd0$0500fea9@game> <20051013202424.76cb0fc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200510131929140903.11A5EB43@10.0.0.252> I've been with eBay almost since the first day (before they had photos on their auctions). But I don't buy a lot of computer equipment. What I do buy is brass musical instruments--usually with hefty price tags (think tubas). One of the common scams on eBay is to hijack an ID and use the photos and description of an instrument that sold a couple of months back. As a matter of course, I'll always email the seller and ask for an additional photo or some bit of unique identifying information, such as the serial number. This tells me three things. The first is that the seller cares enough to respond to inquiries--if the seller doesn't reply, I don't bother with the auction. The second is that the seller actually has the item in his posession. You'd be surprised. The third is that the seller is who he/she says he/she is. If the tenor of the reply doesn't correspond to that in the eBay posting, I get suspicious. Many (if not most) scams originate in countries where English is not the official language. Never respond to a "second-chance" solicitation. You know, the "the winner of my auction didn't pay me or sent the item back, so rather than re-list it, I'm offering it to you as one of the other bidders for the winning bid" ploy. Those are almost always scams. If you respect eBay for the jungle that it is, you'll be okay. Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Oct 13 21:47:48 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:47:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051013213935.32e7825c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > In fact, the 26000+ rating tells me that > he's to busy to test the stuff or to give reasonable service to his > customers. I've learned to stay away from sellers with HIGH transaction > numbers. They usually won't answer E-mail and their stuff is untested and > frequently poorly packed. All due to a lack of time caused by too many sales! Not to defend this guy or anything, but I bet he has at least a few employees. With those kinds of numbers you have to. Remember that only about half of the transactions show up on the feedback, and many of those do not make the number increase (repeat customers). I would bet that he has done something like 50-60000 transactions in total. One person acting alone, running absolutely full throttle, could only do maybe 5000 transactions a year. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Oct 13 21:53:22 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: <200510131929140903.11A5EB43@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Never respond to a "second-chance" solicitation. You know, the "the winner > of my auction didn't pay me or sent the item back, so rather than re-list > it, I'm offering it to you as one of the other bidders for the winning bid" > ploy. Those are almost always scams. There are plenty of extremely valid 2nd chance offers. In the surplus business, it is extremely common to buy a lot of one item, and if one of the auctions does extremely well, only a foolish seller would not try to take advantage of the deal. I use them all the time, and yes, they do work enough times that I keep using them. In a general note to a lot of people on this list - WHAT THE HELL IS WITH ALL THE EBAY SELLER BASHING? I have said it before - I will say it again - pissing off a dealer is one of the dumbest things a collector can do. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 13 22:14:39 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:14:39 -0700 Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510132014390127.11CF7C9E@10.0.0.252> On 10/13/2005 at 10:53 PM William Donzelli wrote: >There are plenty of extremely valid 2nd chance offers. In the surplus >business, it is extremely common to buy a lot of one item, and if one of >the auctions does extremely well, only a foolish seller would not try to >take advantage of the deal. I use them all the time, and yes, they do work >enough times that I keep using them. I'm talking about high-priced "one of a kind" items here, not lots. For example, if this seller were to ask me about a second chance on this instrument, I'd be very leery: http://cgi.ebay.com/Civil-War-era-Eb-Allen-Hall-Rotary-Valve-Tuba_W0QQitemZ7 357151870QQcategoryZ16213QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (It's an antique tuba with an opening bid of $50K). --Chuck From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 22:31:50 2005 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:31:50 -0700 Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <200510131929140903.11A5EB43@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > > > In a general note to a lot of people on this list - WHAT THE HELL IS WITH > ALL THE EBAY SELLER BASHING? EBay bashing is right. If they wont police sellers who wont send you what you bought who the hell cares if they get pissed off I dont think I care what they think. I do care that Ebay wont cull them so we have to have this silly discussion and the sellers were people whose opinion mattered From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Oct 13 22:32:58 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:32:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: <200510132014390127.11CF7C9E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > I'm talking about high-priced "one of a kind" items here, not lots. For > example, if this seller were to ask me about a second chance on this > instrument, I'd be very leery: OK, yes, that is valid - I would be suspect of that, unless the second chance offer came a few weeks later, and if I see from the feedback that the original deal went thru. For such a big deal, I would want to leave a pretty good paper trail, as well. For old computers, however, it is reasonable to think that often a number of a rare item might show up in a dealers hands. In fact, is has happened quite a few times with me, with fairly rare items (Comdyna and EAI analog computers), and I have seen it on EBay as well (anone remember the auction lot of six (!) IBM 2501 card readers?). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Oct 13 22:43:59 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:43:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > EBay bashing is right. If they wont police sellers who wont send you > what you bought who the hell cares if they get pissed off Why? Because blanket Ebay seller bashing hurts the honest dealers like myself (and yes, most dealers BY FAR are honest). Every time someone bashes, it hurts my business in a very small, but very much there way, and that bothers me. Dealers get into dealing given a bad reputation from the start - sort of an Original Sin. We have to shed that, and honestly, it is hard work. Buyers can be easy to deal with, but there are enough that are never satisfied, and a big pain in the rear, but we still have to treat them right. Yes, it would be easy to cheat and steal, but somehow most of us actually do not do it. > I dont think I care what they think. I do care that Ebay wont cull them > so we have to have this silly discussion and the sellers were people > whose opinion mattered Actually, Ebay does cull out bad sellers and buyers. However, enough are still in the system. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Oct 13 22:57:07 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:57:07 -0500 Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <200510132014390127.11CF7C9E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051013225707.3dac17d7.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:32:58 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli wrote: > > I'm talking about high-priced "one of a kind" items here, not lots. > > For example, if this seller were to ask me about a second chance on > > this instrument, I'd be very leery: > > OK, yes, that is valid - I would be suspect of that, unless the second > chance offer came a few weeks later, and if I see from the feedback > that the original deal went thru. > > For such a big deal, I would want to leave a pretty good paper trail, > as well. > > For old computers, however, it is reasonable to think that often a > number of a rare item might show up in a dealers hands. In fact, is > has happened quite a few times with me, with fairly rare items > (Comdyna and EAI analog computers), and I have seen it on EBay as well > (anone remember the auction lot of six (!) IBM 2501 card readers?). > Agreed, but as someone who participates in a lot of auctions, in-person and online, I would hesitate to pay the 'high bid amount' that was realized in a competetive auction for a second unit of the same type. The 'high' bid amount was realized due to a perception of 'scarcity' on the part of the collective bidders. Unless the original winning bidder is looking for yet another of the same unit, the bidding for a second item should close at a substancially lower price. It is, of course, the seller's right to list the second item or not, at the time he deems it will be bid up to the highest price. But my experience is that if you're patient and wait it out, the market becomes saturated and the price drops. I won't deny that I have sold rare silicon on eBay for much, much more than I had any idea it would realize. I also won't deny that I sit on a substancial quantity of said chips and intend to one day sell these 'rare' chips again on eBay, again for what will probably be a high price. And I'll state here that I have publicly offered to sell said chips to people on this list for a much lower price. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 13 22:53:36 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <200510140224.WAA15136@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <434EB7C7.2050608@jcwren.com> <434EB7C7.2050608@jcwren.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051013190244.049b6b18@mail.30below.com> <20051013175301.B48368@shell.lmi.net> <434F0641.4080704@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051013182120.D48368@shell.lmi.net> <200510140224.WAA15136@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20051013205258.U54725@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, der Mouse wrote: > > Oh well. > > In half an hour, my students will be here, and I'll explain to them > > how the PC BIOS handles keyboard input. > > "Poorly"? :-) > Okay, okay, cheap shot.... Well, I did recommend using BIOS INT16h instead of DOS 21h. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 13 23:08:13 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:08:13 -0700 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <0IOB00F7XTQ7JSE2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOB00F7XTQ7JSE2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510132108130041.120086D8@10.0.0.252> On 10/13/2005 at 9:36 PM Allison wrote: >OK I have one so I know what it is. FD55BVR, care to guess? Also a >FD55BFR? Let's see, the BV is a 360K unit with head-load solenoid. The BF has me stumped. The F would indicate a 720K drive, but if that were so, the B wouldn't be part of it. FWIW, the "R" is a delimiter and ends the capacity/special feature field. What follows next is a number, such as 200, that signifies revision, bezel color, etc. A final "U" means the drive is UL approved. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 13 23:11:22 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:11:22 -0700 Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510132111220315.12036A30@10.0.0.252> On 10/13/2005 at 11:32 PM William Donzelli wrote: > and I have seen it on EBay as well (anone remember the auction >lot of six (!) IBM 2501 card readers?). Six ways to destroy cards. I hated those things. -Chuck From gilcarrick at comcast.net Thu Oct 13 23:26:55 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:26:55 -0500 Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <434F0641.4080704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200510140436.j9E4aksx017888@keith.ezwind.net> ... > So are you TELNETing your email then? > I think you can do it this way, but don't ask me the details. Sure you can. Just telnet to the SNMP server and send it the commands to get the messages. When I teach networking we actually have an exercise where we do exactly that. It's a little tricky, though, because a telnet client does not echo what you type. It depends on the telnet server echoing the data back and it displays what it gets back. Unfortunately, SNMP servers don't do that, so when you type the commands you can't see what you are typing. It can be a little confusing. But doable, yes. Gil > Ben Alias woodelf > From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 13 23:27:56 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <434F1237.9060104@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Oct 13, 5 10:04:39 pm" Message-ID: <200510140427.VAA12504@floodgap.com> > If you think that's slow, you should try Lotus Notes. The HMO I work for has standardized on Lotus Notes. I thought I would never say it, but ... I liked Outlook better. See what depths Notes has driven me to? It tries to do too much, which I guess would not be unexpected for IBM. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- And now for something completely different. -- Monty Python ---------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 13 23:29:39 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Telnetting for SNMP etc was Re: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <200510140436.j9E4aksx017888@keith.ezwind.net> from Gil Carrick at "Oct 13, 5 11:26:55 pm" Message-ID: <200510140429.VAA15894@floodgap.com> > Sure you can. Just telnet to the SNMP server and send it the commands to get > the messages. When I teach networking we actually have an exercise where we > do exactly that. It's a little tricky, though, because a telnet client does > not echo what you type. It depends on the telnet server echoing the data > back and it displays what it gets back. Unfortunately, SNMP servers don't do > that, so when you type the commands you can't see what you are typing. It > can be a little confusing. But doable, yes. Eh? You could turn local echo on in the client, but tbh, I have not seen this behaviour with the vanilla Unix client connecting to SNMP or SMTP ports. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The cost of living has not adversely affected its popularity. -------------- From gilcarrick at comcast.net Thu Oct 13 23:34:13 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:34:13 -0500 Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: <200510131929140903.11A5EB43@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510140444.j9E4iLdg018023@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Never respond to a "second-chance" solicitation. You know, > the "the winner of my auction didn't pay me or sent the item > back, so rather than re-list it, I'm offering it to you as > one of the other bidders for the winning bid" > ploy. Those are almost always scams. I did buy one of those once & it worked fine. But I had a student last year who told me that he had bid on a laptop and got a "second chance" offer and was scammed for about $1K. I probably won't do that again, or at least I will be very careful. Gil From gilcarrick at comcast.net Thu Oct 13 23:47:13 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:47:13 -0500 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200510140457.j9E4vE64018199@keith.ezwind.net> Ah. Bobsbid1. a GENUINE PRICK. He is the guy that taught me that 98% means the guy is probably a crook. He advertised an older "Sniffer". A Toshiba portable. I bought it for $10. Probably cost another $20 to ship - don't remember. When it arrived it ran, but the Sniffer software had been wiped off the hard drive and the NIC was gone. The only thing I got for my money was a sticker on the unit that said Sniffer. We exchanged a few emails. If you think his short feedback messages are crap you should see his emails. Eventually I gave him negative feedback. He retaliated, naturally. I had posted all the emails on a web site and put the URL in my reply to his negative feedback. Turns out that's "against the rules" so he was able to get it wiped. If this guy is not getting purged as a seller then I don't know what it takes. I have learned to read the feedback. Anybody who only gives smartass answers I will not deal with. Honest sellers will have reasonable explanations for what went wrong and some "mutual retractions" where matters have been settled amicably. Gil ... From gilcarrick at comcast.net Thu Oct 13 23:48:35 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:48:35 -0500 Subject: Telnetting for SNMP etc was Re: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <200510140429.VAA15894@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200510140458.j9E4wPTx018223@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Eh? You could turn local echo on in the client, but tbh, I > have not seen this behaviour with the vanilla Unix client > connecting to SNMP or SMTP ports. What's UNIX? Gil From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Oct 13 23:37:56 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 00:37:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <200510140436.j9E4aksx017888@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510140436.j9E4aksx017888@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200510140449.AAA14229@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Just telnet to the SNMP server and [...] Um...SNMP is not normally carried over UDP, not TCP, and thus is not telnettable-to. My first guess is you mean SMTP, but... > send it the commands to get the messages. Um, you don't do that with SMTP (and *certainly* not with SNMP). SMTP is used to *send* messages, not *get* messages. You apparently mean POP or IMAP or some such. > When I teach networking we actually have an exercise where we do > exactly that. It's a little tricky, though, because a telnet client > does not echo what you type. It depends on the telnet server echoing > the data back and it displays what it gets back. This is true only of broken (or misconfigured) telnet clients. Since the default state of ECHO is off (see RFC 857), the server is not supposed to be doing echoing (since ECHO will not be negotiated on when speaking to something that does not speak telnet protocol); the client must do any echoing that is to be done. > Unfortunately, SNMP servers don't do that, so when you type the > commands you can't see what you are typing. *I* certainly can. I'd guess you need to get a better telnet client. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gilcarrick at comcast.net Thu Oct 13 23:55:31 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:55:31 -0500 Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <200510140427.VAA12504@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200510140505.j9E55Lfu018368@keith.ezwind.net> ... > The HMO I work for has standardized on Lotus Notes. I thought > I would never say it, but ... I liked Outlook better. See > what depths Notes has driven me to? > > It tries to do too much, which I guess would not be > unexpected for IBM. Don't blame IBM for that. Lotus created it. You remember that saying that men are from Mars & women are from Venus? The guys that created Notes are from Pluto. When I first used it was with a Windows 3.0 client and the keyboard interface was totally hosed. Keys that everyone was used to doing some particular thing like the home key or the end key would do something totally bizarre like go to the end of the page. Not only that, there was no facility for remapping the keyboard. Actually Notes has some interesting features in its ability to access structured databases on a pull basis while still delivering email on a push basis. In certain environments dealing with a big pile of "notes" it really does a good job of letting you organize them in a hierarchical way. I worked for several years for a company that used it and it was fantastic for that job. Gil From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 14 00:01:56 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Telnetting for SNMP etc was Re: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <200510140458.j9E4wPTx018223@keith.ezwind.net> from Gil Carrick at "Oct 13, 5 11:48:35 pm" Message-ID: <200510140501.WAA08388@floodgap.com> > > Eh? You could turn local echo on in the client, but tbh, I > > have not seen this behaviour with the vanilla Unix client > > connecting to SNMP or SMTP ports. > > What's UNIX? Very funny. ;) Btw, in reference to Mouse, I meant IMAP. I don't know why I typed SNMP. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I am an unmitigated Macintosh bigot. So there. ----------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 14 00:04:17 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <200510140505.j9E55Lfu018368@keith.ezwind.net> from Gil Carrick at "Oct 13, 5 11:55:31 pm" Message-ID: <200510140504.WAA12524@floodgap.com> > Actually Notes has some interesting features in its ability to access > structured databases on a pull basis while still delivering email on a push > basis. In certain environments dealing with a big pile of "notes" it really > does a good job of letting you organize them in a hierarchical way. I worked > for several years for a company that used it and it was fantastic for that > job. No, I do agree with that. It just seems to be a victim of its very "I have a solution for every problem whether you have that problem or not" philosophy. The HMO I work for has pretty much leveraged it for mail, and that's it. I think some of the other service areas *do* do other things with it, but we're just pretty much using it as an overgrown E-mail client. I think I'll build elm on my desktop PC instead. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Life isn't fair. But having the root password helps. ----------------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 00:13:37 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:13:37 +1300 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 Models I and III available near NE Ohio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/20/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > See below. Contact original sender directly. > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Kirk Worcester > Subject: Radio Shack > > I have a RS Model I and Model III and I'm looking for a good home. Any > suggestions? I did get this last Sunday - about 5 large boxes of manuals, binders, floppies and tapes, plus the computers. I did find time to fire up the Model III, unfortunately, it seems to have a problem - no text on power-on, and no indication of anything running except for the usual drive 0 spin up and access light for about 2 seconds. The screen has power - you see a white flash and squiggle on power off (usual mono CRT shutdown kind of flash and squiggle), but never any text or fragments of text. Pressing the reset button does get a power-on-type reaction from drive zero, but that's it. It's been about 22 years since I used a Model III, so my memory is a little faded about it. Are there any ROM-based diagnostics? Anything ever get spit out of the serial port? I wish I had a Z-80 pod for my Fluke 9010A (have 68000 and 6502) - it's a great way to sleuth around inert micros. Any and all suggestions (including schematics) are welcome, especially if anyone knows of a site remotely resembling funet, but for TRS-80 stuff. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 14 00:24:12 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:24:12 -0700 Subject: Archival storage References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E583F@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200510112123.RAA16720@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.3.4.2.20051011163428.041e8da0@mail> <200510111503300309.0665EBDA@10.0.0.252> <434E0FFB.4D6555E3@cs.ubc.ca> <20051013134830.G37474@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <434F40FD.7981D07B@cs.ubc.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > (.. got two of them, but they don't work simply connected back-to-back, have to > > figure out what was in the 'cloud' in between, someday.) > > power > > They might also be dependent on certain "signals", such as getting a dial > tone before willing to originate a call. Thanks for the suggestion but.. it appears the units were intended for use over dedicated lines, not POTS/dialup. There is some DC signalling involved for Start/End of Transmission, ACK and c. but thats easy enough to work around. Looking for dial tone is way more sophisticated than what these units do. It was a while ago that I was looking at it (rev. eng. to produce schematic and some initial experimentation), but as I recall when they were simply connected back-to-back, the received fax ended up being a poor-quality *negative* of the original. I think I concluded that the PAM signal needed to be amplitude-inverted, e.g. if the AC amplitude range of the PAM signal is 0 to 10V, then 3VAC transmitted needs to be converted to 10-3=7VAC received (not simply polarity inverted). I was a little perplexed as it seemed like a somewhat sophisticated/complex transformation to accomplish for the time and application. I presumed there must have been some sort of line-balancing/matching/amplification/regeneration going on within the dedicated lines / special network that they operated over which accomplished such. I was thinking of doing an amplitude detection on the PAM signal, feeding it into the inverting input of an op amp, with the positive input fed from a manually adjusted level or perhaps a maximum-level-hold sensed from the PAM. Or else I'm way off and am missing something terribly obvious. Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > When you figure it out, let me know and we can send old school faxes to > each other ;) That would be fun, but the above makes connecting them over a distance today awkward. If you actually have *two* of these units (WU Desk Fax / Telefax 6500 / chassis 6499-A, footprint about one square foot, curved sheet-metal cover in hammertone green, red white & green pushbuttons on left, lamp and 4th pushbutton on right) I'll let you know what's needed to interconnect them if I ever figure something out. (I suppose the above is tending OT, but I like to think some limited mention/discussion of the precursor technologies to the applications accomplished digitally/with computers today is acceptable and of interest here.) From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Oct 14 00:32:24 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:32:24 +0200 Subject: GDS Tapeouts solved... In-Reply-To: <434DDB92.1000801@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > > Well, I thought I'd share this info with everyone as I know I've asked > many a times to the group if anyone could assist and I've been at this > now since, oh about 2003, so its good to finally be able to access > this data at last. I would guess it is probably less work to recreate them from scratch using VHDL. You do have datasheets on them, or is it just the GDSII ? Information on how to use the chips is far more important than just the layout data. Jos Dreesen From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 14 00:51:32 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 00:51:32 -0500 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 Models I and III available near NE Ohio References: Message-ID: <002a01c5d083$5560af20$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> someone wrote.... > Any and all suggestions (including schematics) are welcome, especially > if anyone knows of a site remotely resembling funet, but for TRS-80 > stuff. http://www.classiccmp.org/trs80/ Jay From news at computercollector.com Fri Oct 14 00:40:01 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 01:40:01 -0400 Subject: Need some help with TRS-80 research Message-ID: <002901c5d081$b95dad90$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> I'm doing some homework about the TRS-80. This is for a follow-up to the article I published on Aug. 8, "The controversial birth of the TRS-80". http://www.snarc.net/c-trs80.htm What I'm looking for now is ANY information about a company called "Microcomputer Techniques". Any help is appreciated. - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Oct 13 09:18:39 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:18:39 -0400 Subject: PC Collection on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <000301c5cf95$92c97480$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <006c01c5cfad$5e0058a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <6.2.5.4.2.20051013101524.03351708@boff-net.dhs.org> He also appears to be full of B.S. as he claims he packed everything meticulously in anticipation of long term storage. No freaking way. The picture alone shows that he just threw stuff in there and did not box a lot of the important stuff (as you can see several computer items jumbled up in the mess out in the open and a bike that's obviously shoved into the mess. I don't know if anything is salvageable from the pile outside of using them as props and displays. =/ Would be nice if at least a few things worked well and were valuable enough to make it worth taking the rest of the mountain that didn't work. -John Boffemmyer IV At 06:23 AM 10/13/2005, you wrote: >I sent a message asking to go look next week if possible. We will see what >they say. It doesn't seem anyone I know. > >Paxton > > >-- >Paxton Hoag >Astoria, OR >USA > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/131 - Release Date: 10/12/2005 > > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/131 - Release Date: 10/12/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/131 - Release Date: 10/12/2005 From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Oct 13 22:13:59 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:13:59 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20051013213935.32e7825c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.4.2.20051013230414.03369d08@boff-net.dhs.org> I know exactly the power supply Sellam is describing and talking about as I've had to service a few for some mid-size businesses in my area. Secondly, anyone with a clue would steer clear of a guy with a username like bobs bid 1 ... Sounds entirely made-up and fraudulent off the bat. Maybe next time the employee will be more careful and pay some attention at least? I too was taken by a schmuck like that a few years back. Paid good money for some big boxy hard drives (4-10GB, 5.25, full-height, 10LB brick, SCSI's). A--hole who sold them to me (decent ratings, very few negatives and did not do more than say, 25-50 sales a week) sent them simply wrapped in thin corrugated cardboard and tape (no padding, etc). A few pins were bent on one of them, but amazingly, they all worked fine with no bad sectors, etc. He even gave me negative feedback 2 days after I paid, before I even received the item from UPS ground. Again, gotta love eBay. -John Boffemmyer IV At 10:47 PM 10/13/2005, you wrote: > > In fact, the 26000+ rating tells me that > > he's to busy to test the stuff or to give reasonable service to his > > customers. I've learned to stay away from sellers with HIGH transaction > > numbers. They usually won't answer E-mail and their stuff is untested and > > frequently poorly packed. All due to a lack of time caused by too > many sales! > >Not to defend this guy or anything, but I bet he has at least a few >employees. With those kinds of numbers you have to. Remember that only >about half of the transactions show up on the feedback, and many of those >do not make the number increase (repeat customers). I would bet that he >has done something like 50-60000 transactions in total. One person acting >alone, running absolutely full throttle, could only do maybe 5000 >transactions a year. > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/131 - Release Date: 10/12/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/131 - Release Date: 10/12/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/131 - Release Date: 10/12/2005 From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Thu Oct 13 20:01:20 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:01:20 -0400 Subject: luddites! In-Reply-To: <434EFC6A.7060503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200510140111.j9E1B0Bj014578@keith.ezwind.net> Comments inline .... On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:31:38 -0600, woodelf wrote: >Brad Parker wrote: >>They were anti-loosing-your-job-due-to-technology. They didn't think it >>was right that 10 people working should become 3 people working just >>because a new machine was installed... >> >> > I can't think of were computers really had the most inpact >other than word-processing and accounting. I think it was more >the USA was not as inovative in small things but only large scale >things. Manufacturing, one well written numerical control program generator can replace a small army of machinists with a small number of material movers and machine loaders. Lathe, Mill, and grinder operators went first.... And how about the typesetters and linotype operators in the printing industry ? There are many many more examples if you think about how things were done before ... Digital >>(and, I think they had a point. I think economists are all smoking >>really good dope when they talk about mythical 'productivity gains') >> The productivity gains are real in most manufactureing and process control applications. Bean counting and people tracking is only a small part of the computing picture. >> >> >productivity gains = more $$ for management from my view point. more likely = more money for the vendors then what is left over is for the stock holders :) >>-brad >> >> Bob Bradlee From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 14 02:24:07 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 03:24:07 -0400 Subject: luddites! References: <200510140111.j9E1B0Bj014578@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <00ac01c5d090$43bdfe00$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Bradlee" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 9:01 PM Subject: Re: luddites! > > Manufacturing, one well written numerical control program generator > can replace a small army of machinists with a small number of material > movers and machine loaders. Lathe, Mill, and grinder operators went first.... > > And how about the typesetters and linotype operators in the printing industry ? > > There are many many more examples if you think about how things were done > before ... Digital > > >>(and, I think they had a point. I think economists are all smoking > >>really good dope when they talk about mythical 'productivity gains') > >> > > The productivity gains are real in most manufactureing and process control applications. > Bean counting and people tracking is only a small part of the computing picture. > > >> > >> > >productivity gains = more $$ for management from my view point. > > more likely = more money for the vendors then what is left over is for the stock holders :) > > > Bob Bradlee > Automation might replace many manual manufacturing positions, but it does create support jobs for the machinery used to automate. The more complex the equipment the more people involved in designing, creating, supporting, and servicing it. You trade low skill jobs for somewhat fewer higher skill jobs. The US used to have most of its population at one time working the fields to feed themselves and the rest of the country, today very few people are needed to run automated farms but the rest found other things to do (we don't have 97% unemployment now do we). Productivity gains were huge when we went to computers and robotics to do the repetitive tasks. Thing is once you automate the process where can you get further productivity gains? The answer most companies use is to reduce headcount, make everyone a salaried position (overtime exempt) and crank up the expected work hours from their employees. You can also buy up the competition and price your goods higher (still paying your workers the same amount while merging the 2 companies and firing most of the duplicate staff). The major problems come when the manufacturing itself is sent to another country, and with manufacturing goes the equipment and service companies that support manufacturing. This leaves many people out of work and driving down the wages of those who still have a job, but must compete with those will work at a lower rate to survive. From vp at cs.drexel.edu Fri Oct 14 02:55:51 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 03:55:51 -0400 Subject: Looking for ancient FreeBSD Message-ID: <20051014075551.1E33D200CF76@mail.cs.drexel.edu> > This is almost Classic - I'm looking for a place to download an old > version of FreeBSD, specifically the last release of the 2.2.x branch, > which I think was 2.2.8. Hey, don't call it classic, I use 2.2.7 on a file server at home! :-) When the FreeBSD team moved on to 3.0 I thought they left the "true path" - too many changes to the BSD core. Eventually I switched to OpenBSD, but this one has also changed too much recently. > http://ftp.csie.chu.edu.tw/FreeBSD/ISO-IMAGES-i386/ FreeBSD-2/2/8-mini.iso: 140Mb distribution! That's more like it! I bet it also contains the source. **vp From waisun.chia at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 03:40:31 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:40:31 +0800 Subject: Looking for ancient FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20051014075551.1E33D200CF76@mail.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20051014075551.1E33D200CF76@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: On 10/14/05, Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > > http://ftp.csie.chu.edu.tw/FreeBSD/ISO-IMAGES-i386/ > FreeBSD-2/2/8-mini.iso: 140Mb distribution! That's more like it! > I bet it also contains the source. > Real Unix users run v6 on a 11/40. Now that's what I call classic ;-) Just like what dmr & ken used to do... (if I only have any drives on my newly acquired 11/44...) From andy.piercy at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 06:24:53 2005 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:24:53 +0100 Subject: Old (1980s) Computer Giveaway, UK, North West In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, What do you want for the Northstar 100? Thanks, Andy. On 12/10/05, Chris wrote: > Hello, > > This seems to be the better of the two lists to put this, so here goes. > > Recently we've had a bit of a clearout at the company where I work. As it's > a SW house from the early 80s we've unearthed all sorts of kit in the > cellars. As I know people collect and use old computers I've gained a "stay > of execution" for the old computer kit while I try to find a better home > than a disposal site. If anyone can give a good home to any of the items in > the following list please get in touch with me. > > Conditions: > * All equipment is unwarranted. I don't know if any of it actually works. I > can try to find out, but I can't guarantee anything. > * Shipping not included. This isn't a for-profit exercise, but I can't run a > for-loss exercise either - I don't think the powers that be would like that. > * If you want to make a donation it'll be most welcome. > > In short, pay the shipping and I'll get it to you - carrier of your choice > so long as they'll pick up from here. I don't know if any of it works, but I > can try plugging it in and see what happens. It's all UK-spec, so if it's > shipped elsewhere I don't know if it will work on your mains power, etc. If > you want to cover the cost, I'll ship it to just about anywhere. > > List as follows: > > 1x Apricot F10 (whirrs, beeps and flashes lights when plugged in) 1x Apricot > 5.25 drive, model no XN525F 1x Apricot Monitor, model no 12HM > 1x Maxi 150MB tape drive (it's as big as a modern thin desktop and weighs as > much, no media) > 1x Tandon 286/N > 1x Peanut PC2000 (this looks pretty old) > 1x Northstar 100 (early 80s server, pretty big), and keyboard > 1x Hasler telex, model no TU/014/10 > 4x Signet 3 boxes > 1x Signet PC? (it looks like a PC, only it's dated Jun 1982) > 1x Ampex ATL Model 210 + keyboard > 1x Victor V286 > 1x Unisys 5059 > There's a fair amount of 386/486/pentium 1 + 2 class stuff, old CRTs > (working). > > We're based in Blackburn, UK. If you have any questions feel free to contact > me and I'll try to answer them as best as I can. I hope someone can give at > least some of this a home - it seems a real shame to let it all go. > > Regards, > Chris Shallcross > my.name at gmail.com > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 14 06:58:06 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:58:06 -0400 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware Message-ID: <0IOC00391MJYVL72@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:08:13 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/13/2005 at 9:36 PM Allison wrote: > >>OK I have one so I know what it is. FD55BVR, care to guess? Also a >>FD55BFR? > >Let's see, the BV is a 360K unit with head-load solenoid. The BF has me >stumped. The F would indicate a 720K drive, but if that were so, the B >wouldn't be part of it. FWIW, the "R" is a delimiter and ends the >capacity/special feature field. What follows next is a number, such as >200, that signifies revision, bezel color, etc. A final "U" means the >drive is UL approved. > >Cheers, >Chuck > No, the 55FV has a door latch solinoid as the head load when the door latch is closed. The 55BF is same drive with light beige front, the latch lever is opposite side a different lever shape the led shape is round. Otherwise they are interchangeable. Allison From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Oct 14 07:09:06 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:09:06 +0100 Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: <200510131929140903.11A5EB43@10.0.0.252> References: <00ef01c5d050$aa0cbdd0$0500fea9@game> <20051013202424.76cb0fc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510131929140903.11A5EB43@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <434F9FE2.7040909@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Never respond to a "second-chance" solicitation. You know, the "the winner > of my auction didn't pay me or sent the item back, so rather than re-list > it, I'm offering it to you as one of the other bidders for the winning bid" > ploy. Those are almost always scams. I responded to one for a video camera. Of course, I'd asked the seller a question, and he had replied both through ebay and privately. His second chance offer looked genuine enough (similar headers, sent from the same mail account and from the ISP), and sure enough it was. Trust your own intelligence. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Oct 14 07:15:30 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:15:30 +0100 Subject: Classic hardware tours and KIM-1 repair advice In-Reply-To: <10510122355.ZM29772@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <43466F61.174.FCBD1A5C@localhost> <10510122355.ZM29772@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <434FA162.9030407@gjcp.net> Pete Turnbull wrote: > boards (some SSI, some with 74181 MSI ALUs, etc) to LSI/VLSI ending up > with an 8008 board (we don't seem to have a 4004 between us, > surprisingly -- if anyone would like to donate one for next time, feel > free ;-)). We had a display of three generations (densities) of core I seem to remember doing a thing at school in Higher Physics where we had a 4004 module. I can't remember the company that made it, but I think it was the same sort of stuff as those yellow "lego brick" things that you connected up with banana plug leads. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Oct 14 07:17:02 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:17:02 +0100 Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434FA1BE.30004@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > s/Mr/Dr/ Oh, sorry > :-) > > You do realise that I wrote the >> bit above. I have never tried making No, I missed that bit. > more than double-sided PCBs by hand. And for 1-off prototypes, where > typically I want to try something, get it working, then move on to the > next bit, I don't want a PCB anyway. It's possible to hand-wire stuff > well up into the low 100's mf MHz range if you are careful. The main I bird's-nest pretty much all my experimental RF stuff, either on scrap unetched circuit board or thin sheets of tinned steel. Gordon. From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 07:40:18 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:40:18 +0100 Subject: lost all my phone numbers :\ In-Reply-To: <013201c5cfa0$feb46780$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <013201c5cfa0$feb46780$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <26c11a640510140540r4224e178u@mail.gmail.com> On 13/10/05, Jay West wrote: > Today I hit the wrong recessed button (of two) on my pdaphone.... goodbye > all phone numbers, email addresses, etc. > > My business contacts are easy to replace, but my classiccmp info isn't :\ > Many of you here I had home phone numbers and/or cellphone numbers, etc. Not > anymore. > > So, if you are sorry you ever gave me your number(s), just ignore this > email. Otherwise, email me your contact info OFFLIST please. This isn't a > solicitation for phone numbers I never had...just those here who I already > had the info for. > > Thanks! > > Jay West > > I suppose that's your excuse for never ringing ! ;) Dan From vcf at siconic.com Fri Oct 14 07:48:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 05:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051013213935.32e7825c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Joe R. wrote: > The problem isn't E-bay. You should never have bid on this item IMO. Yes, I KNOW. It was my employee that made the purchase as I instructed him. I just failed to add the caveat, "don't buy from an asshole with lots of negative feedback." -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Oct 14 08:13:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 06:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient faxing (was Re: Archival storage) In-Reply-To: <434F40FD.7981D07B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > When you figure it out, let me know and we can send old school faxes to > > each other ;) > > That would be fun, but the above makes connecting them over a distance > today awkward. If you actually have *two* of these units (WU Desk Fax / > Telefax 6500 / chassis 6499-A, footprint about one square foot, curved > sheet-metal cover in hammertone green, red white & green pushbuttons on left, > lamp and 4th pushbutton on right) I'll let you know what's needed to > interconnect them if I ever figure something out. Sounds exactly like what I have, but I only have one :( Found some nice pictures of ancient fax machines: http://www.hffax.de/html/hauptteil_faxhistory.htm (Beware: that page was doing weird stuff with my desktop) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 08:16:46 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:16:46 -0400 Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <200510140427.VAA12504@floodgap.com> References: <200510140427.VAA12504@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <434FAFBE.5030302@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>If you think that's slow, you should try Lotus Notes. > > > The HMO I work for has standardized on Lotus Notes. I thought I would > never say it, but ... I liked Outlook better. See what depths Notes has > driven me to? > > It tries to do too much, which I guess would not be unexpected for IBM. Actually, I think it's fine for groupware, it's just too slow for email. Peace... Sridhar From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 14 08:52:22 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:52:22 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20051013213935.32e7825c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051014085222.331f44f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:47 PM 10/13/05 -0400, you wrote: >> In fact, the 26000+ rating tells me that >> he's to busy to test the stuff or to give reasonable service to his >> customers. I've learned to stay away from sellers with HIGH transaction >> numbers. They usually won't answer E-mail and their stuff is untested and >> frequently poorly packed. All due to a lack of time caused by too many sales! > >Not to defend this guy or anything, but I bet he has at least a few >employees. That's probably true. But just as in Sellam's case, employees don't always do the correct thing. Because they are employees may explain why the service from such sellers is frequently poor but it doesn't change the fact that THEIR SERVICE IS POOR. I buy a lot of stuff on E-bay and I've had VERY good luck with small dealers but very POOR luck with the mega-dealers. Like Chuck, I frequently send them a test question just to gage their response and only about 25% even bother to reply. Guess what? No reply, no bid! FWIW I've only had TWO negative feedbacks in the 8 1/2 years that I've been using E-bay. The last one was from a mega dealer that never responded to my request for the shipping costs and his address after the auction ended. After a month and 4 requests with no replys I filed negative feedback on him and he immediately filed negative feedback on me in retaliation. I've learned the hard way to be very careful about dealing with the mega dealers! Joe With those kinds of numbers you have to. Remember that only >about half of the transactions show up on the feedback, and many of those >do not make the number increase (repeat customers). I would bet that he >has done something like 50-60000 transactions in total. One person acting >alone, running absolutely full throttle, could only do maybe 5000 >transactions a year. > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 14 09:10:38 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:10:38 Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: <200510132014390127.11CF7C9E@10.0.0.252> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051014091038.1077fa90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:14 PM 10/13/05 -0700, you wrote: >On 10/13/2005 at 10:53 PM William Donzelli wrote: > >>There are plenty of extremely valid 2nd chance offers. In the surplus >>business, it is extremely common to buy a lot of one item, and if one of >>the auctions does extremely well, only a foolish seller would not try to >>take advantage of the deal. I use them all the time, and yes, they do work >>enough times that I keep using them. > >I'm talking about high-priced "one of a kind" items here, not lots. For >example, if this seller were to ask me about a second chance on this >instrument, I'd be very leery: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/Civil-War-era-Eb-Allen-Hall-Rotary-Valve-Tuba_W0QQitemZ7 >357151870QQcategoryZ16213QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >(It's an antique tuba with an opening bid of $50K). Choke! Gasp! Gasp! I'd be very careful of ANY auction item that cost $50,000! Just FWIW I've wondered what kind of idiot (IMHO) would buy a car sight unseen from E-bay and pay for it within 48 hours! (OF course, BEFORE you can arrange to get there and see it in person!) But that seems to be the normal requirement in the auto listings on E-bay. As a buyer I'd NEVER buy a car without the right to examine it in person BEFORE I handed over the money. Just to back that up, let me tell you about my EX-neighbor. He's a bit of a shyster and also has some scheme going. Ok maybe more than a bit of a shyster. In one of his schemes he found out how much people were willing to pay for NICE old four wheel drive vehicles. (Like $14k) He bought a bunch of rusted out worthless 4 wheel drive Land Cruisers and then brought his father up here from Columbia and had him patch the things up with LOTS of Bondo and repaint them. (He was buying Bondo by FOUR five gallon buckets at one time!) They looked great from the photos but they were so rusted I doubt they were even safe to drive (huge holes in the frames, etc). Anyway he sold four of them on E-bay to out of state buyers. The buyers had a transport company pick them up and deliver them (IIRC one to Texas, one to Maryland and I don't know about the others). AFTER the buyers got them and found what a piece of junk they were they are all screaming and making all kinds of threats but there was nothing they could do. As Chuck said, treat E-bay as the jungle it is and you'll be ok. Usually! Joe > >--Chuck > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 14 09:21:40 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:21:40 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20051013213935.32e7825c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051014092140.11c71506@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:48 AM 10/14/05 -0700, Sellam wrote: >On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >> The problem isn't E-bay. You should never have bid on this item IMO. > >Yes, I KNOW. It was my employee that made the purchase as I instructed >him. I just failed to add the caveat, "don't buy from an asshole with >lots of negative feedback." You should make your employee deal with all the grief and aggravation. That would teach him a valuable lesson! Joe From vcf at siconic.com Fri Oct 14 08:22:46 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 06:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: <434F9FE2.7040909@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Trust your own intelligence. If you have any. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bert at brothom.nl Fri Oct 14 09:40:09 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:40:09 +0100 Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434FC349.7040603@brothom.nl> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > >>Trust your own intelligence. > > > If you have any. > How can you tell? From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Oct 14 08:54:08 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:54:08 -0400 Subject: OT: Stoopid Bosses (was: PSA: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20051013213935.32e7825c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051014094354.01be5730@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that William Donzelli may have mentioned these words: > > In fact, the 26000+ rating tells me that > > he's to busy to test the stuff or to give reasonable service to his > > customers. I've learned to stay away from sellers with HIGH transaction > > numbers. They usually won't answer E-mail and their stuff is untested and > > frequently poorly packed. All due to a lack of time caused by too many > sales! > >Not to defend this guy or anything, but I bet he has at least a few >employees. So? When one of my employees frell up, I get the brunt of it. It's *my* responsibility to take care of the problem. That's why I'm the boss. As such, if he's got [a] bad employee[s] it's *his* responsibility to fix the problem. It's painfully obvious he hasn't... with the quantity and caustic nature of the remarks in his feedback, if he doesn't know they're there, he either condones the actions or has his head firmly up his '3rd point of contact', either of which isn't a good situation for a boss. My SWAG is that he is the one who deals with most of the feedback. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Oct 14 09:07:52 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:07:52 +0100 Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051014091038.1077fa90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051014091038.1077fa90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <434FBBB8.8040105@gjcp.net> Joe R. wrote: > Choke! Gasp! Gasp! I'd be very careful of ANY auction item that cost > $50,000! Just FWIW I've wondered what kind of idiot (IMHO) would buy a car > sight unseen from E-bay and pay for it within 48 hours! (OF course, BEFORE > you can arrange to get there and see it in person!) I've bought one car off eBay, which had some minor mechanical problems (sticky downshift from 4th to 3rd, horrible crappy thirstymatic gearbox) but it was just as described. The seller let me test drive it before I even bid, although I suppose it helped that I was only 20 miles away. I bought another one sight unseen, about 260 miles away from me. That also turned out to have one or two minor niggles, but not enough to walk away from it. I was quite prepared to turn round and go home if the car wasn't any good - after all, I'd paid for the petrol down and up in my mate's car already. However, both these cars cost ?100 and ?150 respectively, and were the third and fourth example of that model that I'd bought (and the eighth and ninth of that particular manufacturer's cars that I'd owned). Gordon. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 14 09:14:56 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:14:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Stoopid Bosses (was: PSA: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051014094354.01be5730@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > So? When one of my employees frell up, I get the brunt of it. It's *my* > responsibility to take care of the problem. Yes, I know that. My original assumption was that he did it all himself. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 14 09:19:54 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051014085222.331f44f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > That's probably true. But just as in Sellam's case, employees don't > always do the correct thing. Because they are employees may explain why the > service from such sellers is frequently poor but it doesn't change the fact > that THEIR SERVICE IS POOR. I buy a lot of stuff on E-bay and I've had VERY > good luck with small dealers but very POOR luck with the mega-dealers. Like > Chuck, I frequently send them a test question just to gage their response > and only about 25% even bother to reply. Guess what? No reply, no bid! I have found this to be true across the board. And yes, if I do not get a reply, I think twice about bidding. On a related grumble as a dealer - why do so many people send me questions on the last day of the auction right towards the end? Well, I know, because many people browse the auctions "Ending First" every day. Still, how is one supposed to respond in time? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Oct 14 09:39:31 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:39:31 -0500 Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <200510140449.AAA14229@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200510141449.j9EEnQ82027944@keith.ezwind.net> Whoa! You are right on the first two anyway. That's what I get for answering email so late at night. > My first guess is you mean SMTP, but... Yes. ... > SMTP is used to *send* messages, not *get* messages. > You apparently mean POP or IMAP or some such. POP. ... > telnet client does not echo what you type. ... > This is true only of broken (or misconfigured) telnet > clients. Gee, I just open a DOS command window & type telnet. It doesn't have any options. ... ;) Gil From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 10:11:16 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:11:16 -0400 Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <200510141449.j9EEnQ82027944@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510141449.j9EEnQ82027944@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <434FCA94.2080807@gmail.com> Gil Carrick wrote: > Gee, I just open a DOS command window & type telnet. It doesn't have any > options. > ... > > ;) Misconfigured. Turn on "Local Echo". Peace... Sridhar From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Oct 14 10:28:49 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:28:49 -0500 Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <434FCA94.2080807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510141538.j9EFcj9j028899@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Misconfigured. Turn on "Local Echo". and which of these options is that? telnet [-a][-e escape char][-f log file][-l user][-t term][host [port]] -a Attempt automatic logon. Same as -l option except uses the currently logged on user's name. -e Escape character to enter telnet client prompt. -f File name for client side logging -l Specifies the user name to log in with on the remote system. Requires that the remote system support the TELNET ENVIRON option. -t Specifies terminal type. Supported term types are vt100, vt52, ansi and vtnt only. host Specifies the hostname or IP address of the remote computer to connect to. port Specifies a port number or service name. Gil > > Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Oct 14 10:34:08 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:34:08 -0500 Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <200510141538.j9EFcj9j028899@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510141538.j9EFcj9j028899@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200510141034.09150.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 14 October 2005 10:28, Gil Carrick wrote: > ... > > > Misconfigured. Turn on "Local Echo". > > and which of these options is that? Run telnet. Press ^]. You should get a prompt from telnet where you can set options for telnet, like echo and such, assuming they have packaged a sane telnet client with Windows. Of course, they don't want you to have too much control, so it's possible that you can't do any of that. >:) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 14 10:36:39 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <200510141034.09150.pat@computer-refuge.org> from Patrick Finnegan at "Oct 14, 5 10:34:08 am" Message-ID: <200510141536.IAA13996@floodgap.com> > > > Misconfigured. Turn on "Local Echo". > > > > and which of these options is that? > > Run telnet. Press ^]. You should get a prompt from telnet where you > can set options for telnet, like echo and such, assuming they have > packaged a sane telnet client with Windows. % telnet telnet> set ? echo character to toggle local echoing on/off escape character to escape back to telnet command mode The following need 'localchars' to be toggled true erase character to cause an Erase Character flushoutput character to cause an Abort Output interrupt character to cause an Interrupt Process kill character to cause an Erase Line quit character to cause a Break eof character to cause an EOF sak character to cause remote host SAK sequence to be sent ? display help information telnet> > Of course, they don't want you to have too much control, so it's > possible that you can't do any of that. >:) There is also a number of good GUI-based Telnets, including PuTTY. The telnet included with 2K and XP, frankly, stinks. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Out of my mind (back in an hour). ------------------------------------------ From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Wed Oct 12 09:19:19 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 10:19:19 -0400 Subject: Stonehenge Documentation was: Re: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <434C9F30.6090509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200510121429.j9CET0vS077900@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 23:29:20 -0600, woodelf wrote: >Fred Cisin wrote >> >>Yes, but nobody remembers how to read Stonehenge. >> >> >There is nothing there to READ. Just a big analog? computer to calculate >the seasons and stuff with the sun and moon. The problem is the program >works only for where stonehenge is today ... It is the lack of doc's that >kill ya. For fear of driving Sellam off in nausea for keeping this thread alive :) I will keep completely off topic, and brief,. You struck a nerve with Stonehenge documentation as I am currently writing a book on the subject of the documentation surrounding stonehenge. If you were to look closely, you would find that there is quite a lot of documentation about stonehenge dating from the first surviving written reference to Stonehenge, dating back to the Norman Conquest of 1066 AD. It was not until 1719 when William Stukeley first visited Stonehenge on May 18-19th, 1719, and returned on many occasions to carry out fieldwork Stukeley was the first to pointed out that Stonehenge had solar and lunar significance. 1934 - Alexander Thom had become interested in prehistoric stone circles and their astronomical associations. The nature of his interests is expressed in an article he published in 1951 in the Journal of the British Astronomical Association entitled "The solar observations of megalithic man." The 1960s brought the System 360 and new wave of interest in Stonehenge. Publications by Gerald S. Hawkins and John Michell "A Little History of Astro-Archaeology" all claiming complex geometric and astronomical alignments for the site. An old friend and regular contributor Bill Kramer has a good read on the subject. http://www.eclipse-chasers.com/henge1.html "The Stonehenge Eclipse Calculator" documents the use of stonehenge as an eclipse calculator. As for the original topic : Re: Archival storage ? My suggestion is to uses an Epson photo 2200 on 13x19 archival paper using archival ink at what ever density <2800 dpi you can get away with :) The paper and ink costs would go up a bit, but it would be many fewer reams of paper :) I agree with Sellam and others, we are now beating the spot where the horse died yesterday. But for the record, in this day in age the rule is to have 3 or more copies of everything important with at least one on the shelf, and a live backup colocated in a remote location or data center somewhere. Please reply off list to this mutterings as I have wasted far too much bandwidth already with this Google fodder .... BTW: is there an indexed archive of this list ? Bob Bradlee From henk.stegeman at shell.com Fri Oct 14 04:32:12 2005 From: henk.stegeman at shell.com (Stegeman, Henk HJ SITI-ITIBHW5) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:32:12 +0200 Subject: Looking for a IBM 5110 EMI filter. Message-ID: <6A15E72BE8E3D44494D6BDAF3C388E0E0449F6A5@rijpat-s-346.europe.shell.com> Hi all, Who can help me with an EMI filter from an IBM 5110 ? Mine has an internal non-repairable short circuit. This EMI filter is a CORCOM type F2280 and is located in the mains entry box underneath the screen tube. Any one ? Thanks Henk From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Oct 14 10:50:52 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:50:52 -0400 Subject: Releasing OS/2 Message-ID: All: There was a discussion a while ago about IBM killing OS/2 and why shouldn't they release it under some sort of GNU-like license. Well, I think I confirmed an answer. There is an interview in the October 12th issue of PC Magazine between Mike Miller of PC Magazine and Bill Gates, celebrating the 20th Anniversary of Windows. The interview question is talking about the memory management of Windows compared to OS/2 and how Lee Reiswig (former IBM GM) was crashing Windows in OS/2 demonstrations in the early-'90s. Bill Gates continues, "It's all very ironic, because it's most of the OS/2 code is still our code and we're still selling LAN Manager. Whenever we'd go out and criticize OS/2, that group {within Microsoft} would say 'we just took more friendly fire.'" There's the answer as to why IBM cannot release OS/2. I know we alluded to this fact in the original thread but this is the most positive confirmation I've seen. Rich From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Oct 14 10:58:24 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:58:24 -0500 Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <200510141536.IAA13996@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200510141608.j9EG8Hok029954@keith.ezwind.net> Ah! Thanks. That did work. This is actually what I got: bsasdel Backspace will be sent as delete crlf New line mode - Causes return key to send CR & LF delasbs Delete will be sent as backspace escape x x is an escape charater to enter telnet client prompt localecho Turn on localecho. logfile x x is current client log file logging Turn on logging mode x x is console or stream ntlm Turn on NTLM authentication. term x x is ansi, vt100, vt52, or vtnt This will clearly solve that problem for me. Humm. I wonder if I will get double characters if I am actually working with a telnet server. I will have to try that one of these days. Gil ... > % telnet > telnet> set ? > echo character to toggle local echoing on/off > escape character to escape back to telnet command mode > > The following need 'localchars' to be toggled true > erase character to cause an Erase Character > flushoutput character to cause an Abort Output > interrupt character to cause an Interrupt Process > kill character to cause an Erase Line > quit character to cause a Break > eof character to cause an EOF > sak character to cause remote host SAK sequence to be sent > ? display help information > telnet> > > > Of course, they don't want you to have too much control, so it's > > possible that you can't do any of that. >:) > > There is also a number of good GUI-based Telnets, including > PuTTY. The telnet included with 2K and XP, frankly, stinks. > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap > Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Out of my mind (back in an hour). > ------------------------------------------ From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 11:20:12 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:20:12 -0400 Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <200510141608.j9EG8Hok029954@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510141608.j9EG8Hok029954@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <434FDABC.6000905@gmail.com> Gil Carrick wrote: > This will clearly solve that problem for me. Humm. I wonder if I will get > double characters if I am actually working with a telnet server. I will have > to try that one of these days. You will get double characters. Just turn echo back off. Peace... Sridhar From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 14 11:21:49 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:21:49 -0500 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051014111505.044089a8@mail> Speaking of Gates, he showed up as guest lecturer at an entry-level CompSci course at UW-Madison this week: http://www.news.wisc.edu/11679.html for MTV's "mtvU" network's "Stand In" series: http://www.mtvu.com/on_mtvu/stand_in/ The other episodes are available on broadband but this one isn't up yet. >From the looks of the picture, I'd say this was a smaller discussion session. It's not the big lecture hall they'd use for a popular freshman course like 302. - John From bert at brothom.nl Fri Oct 14 12:18:11 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:18:11 +0100 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434FE853.30505@brothom.nl> Cini, Richard wrote: > > Bill Gates continues, "It's all very ironic, because it's most > of the OS/2 code is still our code and we're still selling LAN Manager. > Whenever we'd go out and criticize OS/2, that group {within Microsoft} would > say 'we just took more friendly fire.'" > > There's the answer as to why IBM cannot release OS/2. I know we > alluded to this fact in the original thread but this is the most positive > confirmation I've seen. I disaggree on the argument. M$ contributed no 32-bit code to OS/2 as far as I can tell. IMO it is the 32-bit code that made OS/2 superior to Windows. BTW, OS/2 has some features that are not available on any other OS, such as the immense flexibility of running DOS programs. One can even write special device drivers that emulate a device in a virtual DOS machine. There are many settings available for VDMs and features like detecting polling loops to prevent waisting time I have never seen before. Check out "The design of OS/2" Bert From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 14 11:24:12 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:24:12 -0700 Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051014091038.1077fa90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051014091038.1077fa90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200510140924120942.14A25900@10.0.0.252> On 10/14/2005 at 9:10 AM Joe R. wrote: > Choke! Gasp! Gasp! I'd be very careful of ANY auction item that cost >$50,000! Bids this expensive are usually arranged with an escrow service to avoid fraud. IMOHO, this particular instrument will get no bids at the $50K level. While it's rare, a more realistic price might be around $20K. When you're dealing with "one of a kind" sort of stuff, you buy where they're sold--and that includes eBay. It's quite possible that a deal will be arranged between the seller and another party after the auction has ended with no bids. Ebay is some of the cheapest advertising you can buy for non-mass produced items. Cheers, Chuck From charlesmorris at direcway.com Fri Oct 14 11:32:29 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:32:29 -0500 Subject: Need Silent 700 schematic Message-ID: My Silent 700 has decided to stop working. Some of the time. It won't print anything although it will move the printhead for CR, LF (but not space or any other printing character) and will sound the beeper from Ctrl-G (BEL). The keyboard is outputting all characters properly. I took it apart (easy since almost everything snaps in place), checked the power supply voltages which all seem reasonable, noticed it was working, put the case back on, now it's broke again. Aargh. Must be a cold solder joint somewhere but there's LOTS of parts inside that small case including an 8080 CPU. I removed the three socketed chips and reinserted. Then I incautiously got a finger on either 120VAC or rectified 150 VDC, in an area I was not expecting "hot" voltages. =8^0 At that point I decided not to play with it any more, at least without a schematic. Anyone got one, or a service manual? I can't locate anything online from Googling. thanks Charles From allain at panix.com Fri Oct 14 11:42:05 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:42:05 -0400 Subject: Looking for a IBM 5110 EMI filter. References: <6A15E72BE8E3D44494D6BDAF3C388E0E0449F6A5@rijpat-s-346.europe.shell.com> Message-ID: <00d601c5d0de$3656c320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > EMI filter from an IBM 5110 / CORCOM type F2280 Perhaps you should write down the external dimensions of this module. They are very common and a newer one would likely work fine, just an educated guess. The only problem that remains is finding one that fits the space provided. John A. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 14 11:48:45 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:48:45 -0700 Subject: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware In-Reply-To: <0IOC00391MJYVL72@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOC00391MJYVL72@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510140948450619.14B8D1A5@10.0.0.252> On 10/14/2005 at 7:58 AM Allison wrote: >No, the 55FV has a door latch solinoid as the head load when the door latch >is closed. The 55BF is same drive with light beige front, the latch lever >is opposite side a different lever shape the led shape is round. Thanks for the lesson! My info on the AV and BV drives only notes a head-load solenoid, not a door lock. If the BF is only the reversed drive, I probably could have discovered this myself if I had taken the time to check my own stock--I beleive that I've got one somewhere. However, according to my Teac product information, the bezel color is NOT part of the part number before the "R"--that's in the part of whatever follows the "R". I also discovered that yes, indeed, Teac made 5.25" SCSI floppy drives and was sourcing them as late as the mid 1990's. I also have some information regarding initialization strings on the Teac SCSI floppies. Cheers, Chuck From allain at panix.com Fri Oct 14 12:01:25 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:01:25 -0400 Subject: Releasing OS/2 References: Message-ID: <010601c5d0e0$e9ccec20$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Lee Reiswig (former IBM GM) was crashing Windows in OS/2 > demonstrations in the early-'90s. Since you mention Reiswig I thought I'd chime in and say that I admire the guy still for his having made an apparance on the Chiefet/Kildall TV show "Computer Chronicles", showing OS/2 directly himself without an assistant and doing a fair job IIRC. This was pretty amazing to me because Chronicles was pretty much a showcase for 10-100 person companies' products, and to see this VP make an appearance there was both good for IBM and the show IMHO. John A. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 14 12:05:58 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 10:05:58 -0700 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <434FE853.30505@brothom.nl> References: <434FE853.30505@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <200510141005580314.14C8939C@10.0.0.252> On 10/14/2005 at 6:18 PM Bert Thomas wrote: >I disaggree on the argument. M$ contributed no 32-bit code to OS/2 as >far as I can tell. IMO it is the 32-bit code that made OS/2 superior to >Windows. BTW, OS/2 has some features that are not available on any other >OS, such as the immense flexibility of running DOS programs. One can >even write special device drivers that emulate a device in a virtual DOS >machine. There are many settings available for VDMs and features like >detecting polling loops to prevent waisting time I have never seen before. I'll also add that there's no way that Microsoft could have written the programmer's documentation for OS/2! It's clean and coherent--not a trademark of Microsoft, IMOHO. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Oct 14 12:15:00 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:15:00 -0400 Subject: luddites! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:15:06 PDT." <35036.207.71.246.177.1129252506.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> Message-ID: <200510141715.j9EHF0o0026466@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jeff Davis" wrote: > >Well, your own example proved the existance of productivity gains - 3 people >with a machine could produce as much as 10 people without the machine, ergo >the 3 people are more productive. If you give 9 of those workers the >machines, and keep 1 around to do maintenance on the machines, the whole group >is nearly 3x as productive. yes, but what if the 7 people who loose their jobs leave town and the town goes belly up? if you measure at the planet level it all probably makes sense, but at a local level it's not so clear. 20,000 unemployed textile works in NC who won't ever be retrained may have a better understanding of this effect... (but only in NC). -brad From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 14 13:59:16 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:59:16 Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <434F9FE2.7040909@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051014135916.12efc024@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> >On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> Trust your own intelligence. YMMV! :-) Joe From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 14 13:21:42 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:21:42 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages Message-ID: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> Here's an interesting problem. Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process that will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years. No direct control of the process itself is entailed (i.e., you don't need the program to operation valves or run motors), but you do need this program to compute manufacturing parameters for each customer. I/O requirements are very modest, mostly simple keyboard and display. What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be independent of a particular software vendor, so the likes of Visual BASIC isn't an option. You'd also want to write in a language that isn't nearing obsolesence, nor one that's still evolving. "Niche" languages would be out of the question, as longevity could be a problem. So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Oct 14 13:27:02 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510141831.OAA10817@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing > process that will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years. > [...] I/O requirements are very modest, mostly simple keyboard and > display. I assume there also is no incredibly hairy computation going on, that it's mostly basic arithmetic and conditional flow control, maybe with some math functions like sin() or sqrt() thrown in. > What would you write it in? That would depend on a number of factors. I'd probably pick C. Maybe /bin/sh. Possibly even Lisp. > So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. I dunno. It's a reasonable contender, certainly, but I still think I'd go for something else. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Oct 14 13:36:29 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:36:29 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051014143009.03b9a2b0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >Here's an interesting problem. > >Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process that >will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years. No direct control of >the process itself is entailed (i.e., you don't need the program to >operation valves or run motors), but you do need this program to compute >manufacturing parameters for each customer. I/O requirements are very >modest, mostly simple keyboard and display. > >What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be independent of a >particular software vendor, so the likes of Visual BASIC isn't an option. >You'd also want to write in a language that isn't nearing obsolesence, nor >one that's still evolving. "Niche" languages would be out of the question, >as longevity could be a problem. > >So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. Honestly: Forth. Runs on everything from a Tandy Model 100/102/200 (Heck, even some word processors!) to new shiznit, extensible, and rather nearly cross-platform. And, it's ontopic. If for some inane reason, Forth isn't a contender, then I'd pick Perl 4.0.x. It's stable, still being used, and runs on equipment as old as an Atari ST. And, I *think* it's ontopic. If not, it's really close. Neither of those an option? Python. When in doubt, Python wins. If it doesn't, then I'll change the rules by then. I *like* Python. ;-) It's not on-topic, but I don't care - I'm changing the rules, remember? ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 13:37:47 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:37:47 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <434FFAFB.3030905@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Here's an interesting problem. > > Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process that > will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years. No direct control of > the process itself is entailed (i.e., you don't need the program to > operation valves or run motors), but you do need this program to compute > manufacturing parameters for each customer. I/O requirements are very > modest, mostly simple keyboard and display. > > What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be independent of a > particular software vendor, so the likes of Visual BASIC isn't an option. > You'd also want to write in a language that isn't nearing obsolesence, nor > one that's still evolving. "Niche" languages would be out of the question, > as longevity could be a problem. > > So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. Native-compiled Java. Peace... Sridhar From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Fri Oct 14 13:40:22 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051014085222.331f44f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20051014184022.64701.qmail@web51611.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Joe R." wrote: I buy a lot of stuff on > E-bay and I've had VERY > good luck with small dealers but very POOR luck with > the mega-dealers. Like > Chuck, I frequently send them a test question just > to gage their response > and only about 25% even bother to reply. Guess what? > No reply, no bid! I'm just guessing but I think there is a good reason for the indifference expressed by big sellers, and its not a lack of manpower. If you are a seller on ebay you quickly realize that the bidders who ask the most questions tend to be the most problematic buyers. A buyer asking questions means , 1) he is actually going to use the product, or 2) the price is a high percentage of his disposable income so its critical he is getting exactly what he wants. Sellers don't want these type of people, they want high income, low expectation buyers who are just going to buy the old computer (for example) and put it on shelf. They don't want buyers complaining that "you said my Altair system had a CPU board model 3424-3423 but the system arrived with a CPU board model 3424-3423A, please refund my payment immediately or I will report you to ebay for fraud". There has to be a reason those mega-dealers are mega-dealers. __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 14 14:39:09 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:39:09 Subject: Bendix Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <26390.1129123415@www54.gmx.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051014143909.0faf3cfc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> It's for the later model Pershing I missiles. A number of these were given the Germans after the USA started switching to the Pershing IIs. That explains it's presense in Germany. Joe (x-Pershing II engineer) At 03:23 PM 10/12/05 +0200, you wrote: >Hi everybody! > >Firstly, if anybody tried contacting me in the last month, please forgive me >for being absent. I'm still catching up on my e-mail backlog since I had a >math exam on 10th of October that was quite important to prepare for. > >Next, we've received quite an interesting donation at the University Museum >yesterday: what looks like an electromechanical guidance system for a >missile. A few photos are on > >http://www.iser.uni-erlangen.de/anzeigen.php?inventarnummer=I1062 > >(click on small one for bigger version, click "Weitere Infos" (further >information) for two pictures of the innards (front and back)). > >I'm asking here because we'd like to acquire some background information on >this unit, what type of missile it came from and so on. According to its >former owner, it was purchased from a scrapper in the mid-70s. > >A small metal nameplate above the connectors reads: > >| U.S. | Guidance Computer | G&C | >| PART NO.10586600-39 |MOD NO.4 | >| SER NO. 614 |WT. 55.75 | >| MFD BY THE BENDIX CORP E-P DIV | >| CONTR.NO.DA-01-021-AMC-11344 Z | >| ARMY MISSILE COMMAND | > >Below that is a sticker reading "SA PROGRAM" with four boxes, the first one >stamped "T2". The small dial between the connectors (two of which are >covered with adhesive tape) is an hours run meter with two hands, indicating >a run time of 157 hours. Next to that is a sticker with "Pueblo Army Depot" >and a large "R" in a box. There is also a material tag of the Bundeswehr >(German armed forces) stuck onto one lid. > >On the inside, there are eight (!!) subassemblies of mechanical calculating >gear, as follows: >CR/SA DISPLACEMENT MODULE, 2x >CR/SA VELOCITY MODULE, 2x >PROGRAM GEN. MODULE >SR VELOCITY MODULE >SR INTEGRATOR MODULE >SR DIPLACEMENT MODULE. > >The last three are linked via gear trains, the first five only have electric >I/O. There are lots of Autosyn Transmitters, precision potentiometers, >switches, small relays and motors on those! > >As far as electronics go, we have: >SERVO AMPLIFIER MODULE 5x >INT MOD & PREAMP MODULE 2x >CUTOFF NULL DET. MODULE >ROLL ARMING MODULE >ELECTRICAL MODULE >VOLTAGE MONITORING MODULE. > >There was no documentation whatsoever with it, so if it is declassified by >now (I hope so), any information (or pointer to) is welcome. > >Yours sincerely, > >-- >Arno Kletzander >Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen >www.iser.uni-erlangen.de > >Lust, ein paar Euro nebenbei zu verdienen? Ohne Kosten, ohne Risiko! >Satte Provisionen f?r GMX Partner: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/partner > From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 13:43:44 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:43:44 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051014143009.03b9a2b0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051014143009.03b9a2b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <434FFC60.60907@gmail.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: > >> Here's an interesting problem. >> >> Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process >> that >> will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years. No direct >> control of >> the process itself is entailed (i.e., you don't need the program to >> operation valves or run motors), but you do need this program to compute >> manufacturing parameters for each customer. I/O requirements are very >> modest, mostly simple keyboard and display. >> >> What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be independent of a >> particular software vendor, so the likes of Visual BASIC isn't an option. >> You'd also want to write in a language that isn't nearing obsolesence, >> nor >> one that's still evolving. "Niche" languages would be out of the >> question, >> as longevity could be a problem. >> >> So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. > > > Honestly: > > Forth. Runs on everything from a Tandy Model 100/102/200 (Heck, even > some word processors!) to new shiznit, extensible, and rather nearly > cross-platform. And, it's ontopic. > > If for some inane reason, Forth isn't a contender, then I'd pick Perl > 4.0.x. It's stable, still being used, and runs on equipment as old as an > Atari ST. And, I *think* it's ontopic. If not, it's really close. Native compiled Java runs on all sorts of stuff too. Even microcontrollers. Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 14 13:41:16 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:41:16 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <434FFBCC.4080906@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be independent of a > particular software vendor, so the likes of Visual BASIC isn't an option. > You'd also want to write in a language that isn't nearing obsolesence, nor > one that's still evolving. "Niche" languages would be out of the question, > as longevity could be a problem. > > So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. Or Java; at least it's standard, strictly defined, open (in that bytecode format etc. is documented), cross-platform, and even if it *were* to become obsolete in x years I can't see there not being emulators around on current hardware of the day which can emulate a DOS / Windows / whatever box and therefore run the compiler or runtime. There'll likely be more people around in the future who can maintain it versus Fortran too... Sorry for the non-classic answer! (although I guess Java's ten years old now, so technially on topic :) cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 14 13:45:35 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051014143009.03b9a2b0@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Oct 14, 5 02:36:29 pm" Message-ID: <200510141845.LAA16894@floodgap.com> > >Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process that > >will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years. No direct control of > >the process itself is entailed (i.e., you don't need the program to > >operation valves or run motors), but you do need this program to compute > >manufacturing parameters for each customer. I/O requirements are very > >modest, mostly simple keyboard and display. > >So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. > Forth. PILOT. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm braiding my dental floss." ----------- From kth at srv.net Fri Oct 14 13:52:58 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:52:58 -0600 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <434FFE8A.50607@srv.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: >Here's an interesting problem. > >Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process that >will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years. No direct control of >the process itself is entailed (i.e., you don't need the program to >operation valves or run motors), but you do need this program to compute >manufacturing parameters for each customer. I/O requirements are very >modest, mostly simple keyboard and display. > >What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be independent of a >particular software vendor, so the likes of Visual BASIC isn't an option. >You'd also want to write in a language that isn't nearing obsolesence, nor >one that's still evolving. "Niche" languages would be out of the question, >as longevity could be a problem. > >So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. > > Are there any schools teaching FORTRAN and more? Does it have an active community? If not, you are going to have problems finding good FORTRAN programmers in 30 years. I don't know, but lately I haven't seen many people who know anything about FORTRAN except that it was an early programming language. Also, which version of FORTRAN (IV, 90, Watfor, ...) do you want to develop around. I'd avoid any kind of BASIC (too many variants), and Pascal (same reason, but to somewhat less extent). I'd avoid the gee-whizz languages and languages designed around GUI's (too rapidly changing for long term stability) like Java, C#, perl, python, etc... Shell scripts are too OS specific (csh, bash, etc.) There are some that have come cross-platform, but usually for a very small number of platforms. And they frequently do surprising things with bad user entry. Pick a language that has a standards document so that different versions of the compiler have a chance of running your program (Ada, C, C++, etc.), and stick to the standards and not someones extensions. It's good if there are is a large number of people currently active in using the language, as many of them should still be alive in 30 years. ... Is this for a machine like the one in "Lost"? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 14 13:52:33 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:52:33 -0600 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <434FFAFB.3030905@gmail.com> References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> <434FFAFB.3030905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <434FFE71.1090000@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> as longevity could be a problem. >> >> So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. > > > Native-compiled Java. > Hardware or Software Java ... The same goes for FORTH too. Z80 or C for the Z80 or 8051? I think is the going trend with the BASIC stamp following after PIC's. > Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 14 13:54:18 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <010601c5d0e0$e9ccec20$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from John Allain at "Oct 14, 5 01:01:25 pm" Message-ID: <200510141854.LAA16330@floodgap.com> > > Lee Reiswig (former IBM GM) was crashing Windows in OS/2 > > demonstrations in the early-'90s. > > Since you mention Reiswig I thought I'd chime in and say that I admire > the guy still for his having made an apparance on the Chiefet/Kildall TV > show "Computer Chronicles", showing OS/2 directly himself without an > assistant and doing a fair job IIRC. This was pretty amazing to me > because Chronicles was pretty much a showcase for 10-100 person > companies' products, and to see this VP make an appearance there > was both good for IBM and the show IMHO. Which episode? I'd like to see that. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I used to miss my ex-girlfriend, but then my aim improved. ----------------- From spc at conman.org Fri Oct 14 14:02:01 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:02:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: luddites! In-Reply-To: <00ac01c5d090$43bdfe00$0500fea9@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Oct 14, 2005 03:24:07 AM Message-ID: <20051014190201.E919E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Teo Zenios once stated: > > The major problems come when the manufacturing itself is sent to another > country, and with manufacturing goes the equipment and service companies > that support manufacturing. This leaves many people out of work and driving > down the wages of those who still have a job, but must compete with those > will work at a lower rate to survive. Wasn't this an issue here in the US during the 60s and 70s? Only then it was jobs being moved from the Northern US to Southern US. -spc (Seem to recall protests about companies moving jobs to other states ... ) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 14 14:08:52 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:08:52 -0400 Subject: luddites! Message-ID: <0IOD00AHQ6HSEL61@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: luddites! > From: Brad Parker > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:15:00 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >"Jeff Davis" wrote: >> >>Well, your own example proved the existance of productivity gains - 3 people >>with a machine could produce as much as 10 people without the machine, ergo >>the 3 people are more productive. If you give 9 of those workers the >>machines, and keep 1 around to do maintenance on the machines, the whole group >>is nearly 3x as productive. > >yes, but what if the 7 people who loose their jobs leave town and the town >goes belly up? > >if you measure at the planet level it all probably makes sense, but at a >local level it's not so clear. > >20,000 unemployed textile works in NC who won't ever be retrained may >have a better understanding of this effect... (but only in NC). > >-brad I cannot argue with that. Nor did I say that it was pleasent. I will say that technological change has been responsable for several migrations and those that didn't now commute a distance that took as many as 3-4 days by wagon at one time. The wholesale movement of production from one local to another of far lower employement is older than automation and has always come with a social and economic price that automation alone did not always entail. It's very different to have ones job change then the facility disappear completely. Allison From allain at panix.com Fri Oct 14 14:16:49 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:16:49 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> <434FFE8A.50607@srv.net> Message-ID: <038601c5d0f3$d4443f80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Are there any schools teaching FORTRAN and more? Does it >have an active community? If not, ... Amazingly*, Yes. I go visit my old college bookstore every few years for fresh titles in Computer Science (this year: I bought O/S internals by Stallings). It's a top 25 undergraduate engineering ranked place with a big budget for new equipment so I was quite surprised to see this year the book "Classical Fortran" by Kupferschmid. In my head I'm thinking Fortran is Only for classiccmps and classiccmps are Retired equipment. Apparently this course is for maintenence programmers. John A. * to me, for one. From spc at conman.org Fri Oct 14 14:20:01 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <434FFE8A.50607@srv.net> from "Kevin Handy" at Oct 14, 2005 12:52:58 PM Message-ID: <20051014192001.788A473029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Kevin Handy once stated: > > >So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. > > Are there any schools teaching FORTRAN and more? Does it > have an active community? If not, you are going to have problems > finding good FORTRAN programmers in 30 years. I don't know, > but lately I haven't seen many people who know anything about > FORTRAN except that it was an early programming language. > Also, which version of FORTRAN (IV, 90, Watfor, ...) do you > want to develop around. I know one guy, younger than me (I'm in my mid-30s) who not only still uses FORTRAN, but still *writes* in FORTRAN, for his job [1]. -spc (Don't thing FORTRAN is going away any time soon ... ) [1] He has a Ph.D. in physics, and does simulations of the interior of stars ... From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 14 14:21:49 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 14, 2005 11:21:42 AM Message-ID: <200510141921.j9EJLn2m009169@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Here's an interesting problem. > > Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process that > will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years. No direct control of > the process itself is entailed (i.e., you don't need the program to > operation valves or run motors), but you do need this program to compute > manufacturing parameters for each customer. I/O requirements are very > modest, mostly simple keyboard and display. I'd use Ada 2005. Why, becuase Ada is the best answer for the problem, and Ada 2005 is the new language Spec. By using Ada you decrease the odds of bugs sneaking through testing. For display, I hope you're talking about terminal based, if you're talking GUI, that's a whole other can of worms! Zane From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 14 14:23:21 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:23:21 -0400 Subject: luddites! References: <20051014190201.E919E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <002a01c5d0f4$bd6d4620$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 3:02 PM Subject: Re: luddites! > It was thus said that the Great Teo Zenios once stated: > > > > The major problems come when the manufacturing itself is sent to another > > country, and with manufacturing goes the equipment and service companies > > that support manufacturing. This leaves many people out of work and driving > > down the wages of those who still have a job, but must compete with those > > will work at a lower rate to survive. > > Wasn't this an issue here in the US during the 60s and 70s? Only then it > was jobs being moved from the Northern US to Southern US. > > -spc (Seem to recall protests about companies moving jobs to other > states ... ) > There were no unions in the south at that time. Its one thing having the jobs move around the country where the cost of living is lower (I would rather make $50K in Tennessee then $90K in NYC), its another to see the jobs go to a country that won't let you in to work. From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Oct 14 14:36:03 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:36:03 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:21:42 PDT." <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510141936.j9EJa4mL008286@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >Here's an interesting problem. > >Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process that >will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years. No direct control of >the process itself is entailed (i.e., you don't need the program to >operation valves or run motors), but you do need this program to compute >manufacturing parameters for each customer. I/O requirements are very >modest, mostly simple keyboard and display. > >What would you write it in? This is an interesting thread. But I think the language misses the point. It doesn't matter what language it's written in. The important question is what will it run on. There are still pdp-11's out there running applications every day and it doesn't matter what they were written in. It does matter if the 11/44 power supply blows up, however :-) So, I'd say the 30 year requirement has more to do with the machine than anything else. These days the half life of a disk drive or PC power supply is about 12 months. You'll need something more robust to make it 30 years. That said, I would use Java and run it on a web browser with a linux backend using something like apache + perl + mysql. You'd at least have some hope of running the code in the future. I can boot modern vintage linux kernels (2.4.x) on a 386 with 8mb of ram and that's about a 20y span. But I think my real point is that you freeze the o/s and platform software and then just maintain the hardware platform forever. At some point the maintenance of the hardware exceeds, in cost, the pain of replacing the software. Or, the need for the application goes away. -brad From shirsch at adelphia.net Fri Oct 14 14:36:32 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:36:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: GDS Tapeouts solved... In-Reply-To: <434DDB92.1000801@atarimuseum.com> References: <0510122037.AA03904@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <011401c5cfa0$24a7c960$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <434DDB92.1000801@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I've been sitting on literally hundreds of chip "tapeouts" of various > proprietary Atari chip designs from the 70's through the 80's for various > chips used in their arcade, home video game and home computer systems. I > plethora of legacy designs that would've been a true loss to classic computing > and video gaming history had they lanquished to a point where the 9 track > tapes would've become unreadable. (snip) > Well, I thought I'd share this info with everyone as I know I've asked many a > times to the group if anyone could assist and I've been at this now since, oh > about 2003, so its good to finally be able to access this data at last. Glad you worked that all out, Curt. Do you have the RTL description for any of those, or even a netlist? In theory, a good LVS tool and lots of patience could infer the netlist from the layout. In practice, it may be extremely difficult to back out anything usable (I work in the field, so this is not idle speculation). Steve From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 14 14:37:39 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <038601c5d0f3$d4443f80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Oct 14, 2005 03:16:49 PM Message-ID: <200510141937.j9EJbdFV009572@onyx.spiritone.com> > > > Are there any schools teaching FORTRAN and more? Does it > >have an active community? If not, ... > > Amazingly*, Yes. > I go visit my old college bookstore every few years for fresh titles > in Computer Science (this year: I bought O/S internals by Stallings). > It's a top 25 undergraduate engineering ranked place with a big > budget for new equipment so I was quite surprised to see this year > the book "Classical Fortran" by Kupferschmid. In my head I'm thinking > Fortran is Only for classiccmps and classiccmps are Retired equipment. > Apparently this course is for maintenence programmers. > > John A. > * to me, for one. > Fortran seems to still be the favorite language for number crunching. Zane From shirsch at adelphia.net Fri Oct 14 14:38:21 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A few items for sale In-Reply-To: <434FAFBE.5030302@gmail.com> References: <200510140427.VAA12504@floodgap.com> <434FAFBE.5030302@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > If you think that's slow, you should try Lotus Notes. > > > > > > The HMO I work for has standardized on Lotus Notes. I thought I would > > never say it, but ... I liked Outlook better. See what depths Notes has > > driven me to? > > > > It tries to do too much, which I guess would not be unexpected for IBM. > > Actually, I think it's fine for groupware, it's just too slow for email. The jury is still out on that one. From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 14:56:27 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:56:27 +0100 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <200510131618180078.10F71C46@10.0.0.252> References: <200510131618180078.10F71C46@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <26c11a640510141256s85e42cen@mail.gmail.com> > I don't buy from sellers wtih negative feedback. There's a neat tool for > Firefox that lets you see negative feedback for any seller with just a > mouse click. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > II tend to look at the recent and frequent negative feedback. I have seen how easy it is to get. In 5 years I've got five negative feedbacks and they've been from sellers that I've complained about. The last one recently was from Germany apparantly her paypal account could not take credit card payments and it was returned. I had to transfer money from my account to hers. This wasn't a problem but because I hadn't done it before I had to wait for paypal to credit 1p to my account and give them the reference number. I sent the seller an email explaining this would take a week or so. She registered a non payment with ebay 2 days later. I sent all the emails to them and they agreed. Two months later she gave me negative feedback in German. Sorry for length Dan From allain at panix.com Fri Oct 14 14:59:09 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:59:09 -0400 Subject: Releasing OS/2 References: <200510141854.LAA16330@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <03c101c5d0f9$be8134e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Which episode? Ask Google: Ask Prelinger Archive: Answer: 1988: "Multitasking" "As operating systems grew more robust, one of the key new features was the ability to multitask, run several applications at the same time. This program looks at some new approaches including Concurrent DOS from Digital Research, Windows 386 from Microsoft, IBM's OS/2, Apple's A/UX, and Tandy's Xenix..." http://www.archive.org/details/CC518_multitasking > I'd like to see that. Me too. Somebody make a disk of this Quick! John A. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 14 15:00:08 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:00:08 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages Message-ID: <0IOD00MH68V89EE3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT: Language for the ages > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:37:39 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> > Are there any schools teaching FORTRAN and more? Does it >> >have an active community? If not, ... >> >> Amazingly*, Yes. >> I go visit my old college bookstore every few years for fresh titles >> in Computer Science (this year: I bought O/S internals by Stallings). >> It's a top 25 undergraduate engineering ranked place with a big >> budget for new equipment so I was quite surprised to see this year >> the book "Classical Fortran" by Kupferschmid. In my head I'm thinking >> Fortran is Only for classiccmps and classiccmps are Retired equipment. >> Apparently this course is for maintenence programmers. >> >> John A. >> * to me, for one. >> > >Fortran seems to still be the favorite language for number crunching. > > Zane That is the forte' of Fortran. However user interfaces in fortran are sparse as the language is not well suited to textual data. I feel there is no one language for all tasks. For example older 8080/z80 hardware was likely programmed in ASM for embedded apps due to size constraints of availabe ROMs. However I've seen a lot of stuff with basic in ROM and the programming in BASIC so the hardware could be somewhat self supporting. It would seem that languages that persist are those best able to cope with large changes in computing environments. Fortran and BASIC are old and well known as are Pascal and C and likely a few others. The rest are dialects or specializations that live in specific application environments. When those environments become passe` or surperceeded the languages will either evolve or become "old". Allison From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Oct 14 15:02:12 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:02:12 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <038601c5d0f3$d4443f80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> <434FFE8A.50607@srv.net> <038601c5d0f3$d4443f80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200510141502.12954.pat@computer-refuge.org> John Allain declared on Friday 14 October 2005 02:16 pm: > > Are there any schools teaching FORTRAN and more? Does it > >have an active community? If not, ... > > Amazingly*, Yes. > I go visit my old college bookstore every few years for fresh titles > in Computer Science (this year: I bought O/S internals by Stallings). > It's a top 25 undergraduate engineering ranked place with a big > budget for new equipment so I was quite surprised to see this year > the book "Classical Fortran" by Kupferschmid. In my head I'm thinking > Fortran is Only for classiccmps and classiccmps are Retired equipment. > Apparently this course is for maintenence programmers. Fortran is still VERY heavily used in supercomputing/HPC[1] environments, like where I work. It's such a big deal, that most people don't want to use a machine/OS unless is has a good working Fortran 90 compiler on it. 1. High Performance Computing: covers everything from big iron supercomputers from the likes of Cray and IBM to things like clusters of cheap-ass Linux boxes, which people use to get as many FLOPS as they can from. PAt -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Oct 14 15:06:33 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:06:33 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <434FFBCC.4080906@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> <434FFBCC.4080906@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200510141506.33492.pat@computer-refuge.org> Jules Richardson declared on Friday 14 October 2005 01:41 pm: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be independent > > of a particular software vendor, so the likes of Visual BASIC isn't > > an option. You'd also want to write in a language that isn't nearing > > obsolesence, nor one that's still evolving. "Niche" languages would > > be out of the question, as longevity could be a problem. > > > > So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. > > Or Java; at least it's standard, strictly defined, open (in that > bytecode format etc. is documented), cross-platform, and even if it > *were* to become obsolete in x years I can't see there not being > emulators around on current hardware of the day which can emulate a > DOS / Windows / whatever box and therefore run the compiler or > runtime. Except that the program you write against today's Java won't compile against tomorrow's Java. It's amazing to me that a language API can change that much between point revisions (eg, 1.1 to 1.2). For something that runs on modern-ish (non-classic) hardware, my vote is for C, Perl, or ksh/bash; C for a large/complex program, Perl for things in the middle, and ksh/bash for simple tasks. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 14 15:10:54 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:10:54 -0400 Subject: Releasing OS/2 Message-ID: <0IOD006ST9D58321@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Releasing OS/2 > From: "John Allain" > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:59:09 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > What I'd like to see is a comparison of OS/2 to say DRI Concurrent386 and Win3.1 or Nt3. I picked the latter two as I know them well. I have both concurrent386 and OS/warp 3 but never used them. Maybe I'm missing something and I'd like to have an idea of and how practical their use would be in the present as part of my PC based supporting systems. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 14 15:14:24 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:14:24 -0600 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <0IOD006ST9D58321@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOD006ST9D58321@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <435011A0.4090105@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >>Subject: Re: Releasing OS/2 >> From: "John Allain" >> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:59:09 -0400 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> >> > >What I'd like to see is a comparison of OS/2 to say DRI Concurrent386 >and Win3.1 or Nt3. I picked the latter two as I know them well. I have >both concurrent386 and OS/warp 3 but never used them. Maybe I'm missing >something and I'd like to have an idea of and how practical their use >would be in the present as part of my PC based supporting systems. > > > > Lets not forget OS/9 for the 6809 , just for a reality check of multi-tasking. >Allison > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 14 15:35:00 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:35:00 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141506.33492.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> <434FFBCC.4080906@yahoo.co.uk> <200510141506.33492.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43501674.902@yahoo.co.uk> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Jules Richardson declared on Friday 14 October 2005 01:41 pm: > >>Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>>What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be independent >>>of a particular software vendor, so the likes of Visual BASIC isn't >>>an option. You'd also want to write in a language that isn't nearing >>>obsolesence, nor one that's still evolving. "Niche" languages would >>>be out of the question, as longevity could be a problem. >>> >>>So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. >> >>Or Java; at least it's standard, strictly defined, open (in that >>bytecode format etc. is documented), cross-platform, and even if it >>*were* to become obsolete in x years I can't see there not being >>emulators around on current hardware of the day which can emulate a >>DOS / Windows / whatever box and therefore run the compiler or >>runtime. > > > Except that the program you write against today's Java won't compile > against tomorrow's Java. > > It's amazing to me that a language API can change that much between point > revisions (eg, 1.1 to 1.2). Not really; the main changes are always going to be in the GUI - and that's probably true for any language. Pick a cross-platform GUI layer for any programming language of today and it's probably going to change over the 30 year timescale mentioned. In the Java world, all of the basic language structures and I/O libraries are very stable (I'm ignoring the 1.02 to 1.x transition as that really was almost a beta to public release step). Eye-candy stuff's always going to be at the mercy of current trends, unfortunately. Someone else brought up the character-based UI, and I'd say that's a very good bet for survival if the 30 year timescale is one of the most important goals. I'd probably either have a text-mode interface to the Java code, or better still stick a bit of networking code in there so that I could just control it from any old telnet client (or open up the possibility of control via whatever scripting language or web technology or GUI utility is current flavour of the month) At the end of the day, the types of server / control apps that seem to be lasting the longest are those with well-designed low-level interfaces onto which higher-level control applications can be bolted (without compromising the central core app of course) Of course trying to convince the average manager of the benefit in using simple character-based UIs for anything can be easier said than done... but I'd probably aim for a Java app with a simple textmode UI and network interface built in (regardless of whether it ended up being compiled to native code or interpreted bytecode on the current target platform; that's irrelevant). Make sure the network interface is (very) well documented and versioned just in case unforseen enhancements have to be added in ten years down the line... cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 14 15:39:26 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:39:26 -0600 Subject: Stonehenge Documentation was: Re: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510121429.j9CET0vS077900@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510121429.j9CET0vS077900@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4350177E.3070002@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Bradlee wrote: >I agree with Sellam and others, we are now beating the spot where the horse died yesterday. > >But for the record, in this day in age the rule is to have 3 or more copies of everything important with at least one on the shelf, and a live backup colocated in a remote location or data center >somewhere. > > And FREE documents ... I can see standards having a printing price for paper but not online text. > > > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Oct 14 15:39:39 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:39:39 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141936.j9EJa4mL008286@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200510141936.j9EJa4mL008286@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4350178B.3090101@gjcp.net> Brad Parker wrote: > But I think the language misses the point. It doesn't matter what > language it's written in. The important question is what will it run > on. There are still pdp-11's out there running applications every day > and it doesn't matter what they were written in. It does matter if the > 11/44 power supply blows up, however :-) Not much though. How long would it take to bodge up a working power supply for a PDP-11 of any flavour? It's not like it's incredibly critical, unlike modern PC motherboards. Gordon. From news at computercollector.com Fri Oct 14 15:42:50 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:42:50 -0400 Subject: FW: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE Message-ID: <002e01c5d0ff$d82d9130$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Hey folks, last night I recieved the message below. This guy posted an identical message to Erik's www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum page as well. I have no information about the credibility of the seller. It's certainly not the "largest computer collection in the world" but it should be an interesting discussion. ;) - Evan _____ From: INFO at FKI.BE [mailto:info at fki.be] Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 6:18 AM To: news at computercollector.com Subject: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE Hi there, I am selling my complete collection of computers (over 570 different ones). If you are interested in some computer(s) from my collection, just mail me at info AT fki DOT be (replace AT by @ and DOT by .) and I'll add you to the list of possible buyers. I will then mail you back explaining how I intend to sell the computers. As you can see from my 100% positive feedback on Ebay (member ChaosDM) this is not a scam, but a serious sale. I don't want to go through Ebay directly, because listing 570 different items separately would take AGES! Anyway...the list of the collection can be seen here : http://users.pandora.be/F-242/Computers.htm There are a LOT of very and ULTRA rare items in there For example : A GOLDEN C64 WITH COMMEMORATIVE PLAQUE! A LOT OF ARABIC MSx's A LOT OF RUSSIAN COMPUTERS ETC... Cheers, Dimitri Kokken Belgium From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Oct 14 15:44:55 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:44:55 -0400 Subject: GDS Tapeouts solved... In-Reply-To: References: <0510122037.AA03904@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <011401c5cfa0$24a7c960$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <434DDB92.1000801@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <435018C7.5080002@atarimuseum.com> I have some former Atari engineer contacts at Tekmos, they supposedly can back out GDS' to Verilog, so if it isn't too painful or costly a process and it could be stepped back to where the core could be resynthesised into modern ASIC or even just FPGA's this could be very interesting. I have some tapeouts for AMY and SILVER which were a sound and graphics chipset that Atari Corp. research had been working on in 1983-4 that, according to notes and speaking with the engineers, was a chipset that could've blown the doors off of the Amiga and just about anything else at the time. It would be interesting to see if these chips could be resurrected and examined. I know AMY did in fact work, I have a proto 65XE computer with one wired onto it and Sight & Sound in the Midwest had gotten the chip working and in fact had an AMY-2 chip designed as well. I'm going to convert some of these to ASCII just to examine in the meantime. I'm also going to do a block view of the tapes again, one block at a time and see if there is anything else besides the GDSII and DB files on them. I have a bunch of Silos TDX simulation test tapes, those may have some good info to yeild as well. Curt Steven N. Hirsch wrote: >On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > >>I've been sitting on literally hundreds of chip "tapeouts" of various >>proprietary Atari chip designs from the 70's through the 80's for various >>chips used in their arcade, home video game and home computer systems. I >>plethora of legacy designs that would've been a true loss to classic computing >>and video gaming history had they lanquished to a point where the 9 track >>tapes would've become unreadable. >> >> > >(snip) > > > >>Well, I thought I'd share this info with everyone as I know I've asked many a >>times to the group if anyone could assist and I've been at this now since, oh >>about 2003, so its good to finally be able to access this data at last. >> >> > >Glad you worked that all out, Curt. Do you have the RTL description for >any of those, or even a netlist? In theory, a good LVS tool and lots of >patience could infer the netlist from the layout. In practice, it may be >extremely difficult to back out anything usable (I work in the field, so >this is not idle speculation). > > >Steve > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.0/134 - Release Date: 10/14/2005 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 14 15:47:06 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:47:06 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141937.j9EJbdFV009572@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200510141937.j9EJbdFV009572@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200510141347060339.1593099B@10.0.0.252> This is actually not as hypothetical as it soiunds. I'm working with a firm that manufactures parts for nuclear reactors. Parts certification alone can take years. I remember a friend working for GE in the 80's remarking that their computers in the field were still built of discrete semiconductors, with core and running from paper tape. One has to keep in mind that companies are bought and sold, sell off and scrap assets, assets are destroyed, etc. So keeping some sort of hardware arouind to run this stuff is not an option. So, here's my reasoning. What was the programming atmosphere like in 1975? Well, punched cards and magnetic tapes were still very much in use (surely everyone remembers Donald Knuth's "Searching and Sorting" text with the foldout examples of how a polyphase sort worked). COBOL and PL/I were very hot as was FORTRAN. There was a little bit of renewed interest in the Iverson language, APL. Folks still programmed in Algol, particularly in Europe. BASIC was being used in some teaching environments, but wasn't really accepted as a full-fledged production language. LISP was popular among the research types. Wirth was flogging Pascal, but it still looked like something for the academic community (i.e., there wasn't much in the way of I/O). There were various special-purpose languages wandering around, like SNOBOL and Simula (not to mention GPSS). RPG was far from dead. I was still poring over the occasional bit of JOVIAL. But if I wanted to do something "quick and dirty", it was in FORTRAN. There were whole operating systems written in extended dialects of FORTRAN. And there were lots of "boutique languages". All this time FORTRAN has survived. Still a great language for number crunching, it's withstood attempts by X3J3 to make it a completely opaque mess of features. By and large, if you write a program in FORTRAN IV or 77, you can find a compiler for just about every machine ever made. One nice aspect of FORTRAN is that it's easy to learn a functional subset. No trying to understand multiple inheritance and objects. Syntax is very simple. This was driven home to me when I picked up an 8" diskette from my collection written in 1978. I'd written a program for CP/M that read and wrote ISIS-II floppies. Aside from the basic physical diskette I/O, it was entirely in FORTRAN. It was easy to understand even though I'd not written any FORTRAN in 20 years. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Oct 14 16:08:26 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:08:26 -0400 Subject: GDS Tapeouts solved... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:44:55 EDT." <435018C7.5080002@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200510142108.j9EL8Q10021478@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: >interesting. I have some tapeouts for AMY and SILVER which were a >sound and graphics chipset that Atari Corp. research had been working on Do you have the pokey? I think I'd like a wall plot of that just for old time humor sake... (I did a little time with the pokey 'back in the day' - like 83 & 84) -brad From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 14 16:11:19 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:11:19 -0400 Subject: Releasing OS/2 Message-ID: <0IOD009YNC5TVL95@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Releasing OS/2 > From: woodelf > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:14:24 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >> >>What I'd like to see is a comparison of OS/2 to say DRI Concurrent386 >>and Win3.1 or Nt3. I picked the latter two as I know them well. I have >>both concurrent386 and OS/warp 3 but never used them. Maybe I'm missing >>something and I'd like to have an idea of and how practical their use >>would be in the present as part of my PC based supporting systems. >> >> >Lets not forget OS/9 for the 6809 , just for a reality check of >multi-tasking. My original intent was limited to OSs that were operable on PCs. If there is OS/9 for PC then by all means but I'd suspect comparison would be to unix/linux rather than Dos/win. While I'd not mind seeing that I have no real 6809 hardware other than a COCO-II that is sans case. Found it on the side of the road with smashed case but fully intact and operable. While 1+ing the question we can add 8bit multitasking for Z80 other than MP/M to look at. Allison From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 14 16:18:06 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:18:06 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages References: <200510141937.j9EJbdFV009572@onyx.spiritone.com> <200510141347060339.1593099B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4350208D.5AB58523@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > One nice aspect of FORTRAN is that it's easy to learn a functional subset. > No trying to understand multiple inheritance and objects. .. I don't have a reference but I recall seeing or hearing a few years ago that object-oriented facilities had been added to (the latest version of) FORTRAN. I was stupefied. It's one thing to be maintaining an old language/sys for legacy applications,etc., it's another to be bloating it further in an attempt to drag it into the future. > Syntax is very simple. I was perusing my undergrad WATFOR manual a while ago for the first time in a couple of decades ... can't say I'd agree with simple, at least if simple == regularity. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 14 16:21:24 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:21:24 -0600 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <0IOD009YNC5TVL95@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOD009YNC5TVL95@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43502154.2020302@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >My original intent was limited to OSs that were operable on PCs. If >there is OS/9 for PC then by all means but I'd suspect comparison would >be to unix/linux rather than Dos/win. > > > Circuit Cellar had a Z8000 and on card for the PC once. Does anybody remember just what it ran? Other than 386's was there any other add on cards for the PC? >While I'd not mind seeing that I have no real 6809 hardware other than >a COCO-II that is sans case. Found it on the side of the road with smashed >case but fully intact and operable. > >While 1+ing the question we can add 8bit multitasking for Z80 other than >MP/M to look at. > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 14 16:18:04 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:18:04 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141347060339.1593099B@10.0.0.252> References: <200510141937.j9EJbdFV009572@onyx.spiritone.com> <200510141347060339.1593099B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4350208C.4080500@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > This is actually not as hypothetical as it soiunds. Of course not :) I'd like to think that anything I write stands a chance of still being around in 30 years anyway; I'd say that longevity of code should be one of the goals of any programmer. It's like all aspects of good coding - think about it a little and you tend to end up adding it in automatically without really thinking about it. > mess of features. By and large, if you write a program in FORTRAN IV or > 77, you can find a compiler for just about every machine ever made. Or you can almost certainly find an emulator for that machine that'll emulate something else that *will* run Fortran... It's a long time since I've done any Fortran (and I didn't particularly like it at the time :) but ISTR it being a pretty simple language to parse - which makes rolling your own parser in x years not completely out of the question... From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 14 16:29:58 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:29:58 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <17232.9046.528348.920764@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> Here's an interesting problem. Suppose you wanted to write an Chuck> application for a manufacturing process that will, in all Chuck> probability, run for the next 30 years. No direct control of Chuck> the process itself is entailed (i.e., you don't need the Chuck> program to operation valves or run motors), but you do need Chuck> this program to compute manufacturing parameters for each Chuck> customer. I/O requirements are very modest, mostly simple Chuck> keyboard and display. Chuck> What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be Chuck> independent of a particular software vendor, so the likes of Chuck> Visual BASIC isn't an option. You'd also want to write in a Chuck> language that isn't nearing obsolesence, nor one that's still Chuck> evolving. "Niche" languages would be out of the question, as Chuck> longevity could be a problem. Chuck> So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. Not bad, though Fortran certainly IS still evolving. C is the obvious choice. In either case, you have to be careful that you don't wreck the portability by using non-portable I/O. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 14 16:35:55 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:35:55 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages References: <200510141937.j9EJbdFV009572@onyx.spiritone.com> <200510141347060339.1593099B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <17232.9403.739136.567099@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> So, here's my reasoning. What was the programming atmosphere Chuck> like in 1975? ... Chuck> All this time FORTRAN has survived. Still a great language Chuck> for number crunching, it's withstood attempts by X3J3 to make Chuck> it a completely opaque mess of features. By and large, if you Chuck> write a program in FORTRAN IV or 77, you can find a compiler Chuck> for just about every machine ever made. So has RPG, by the way. My sister makes a very comfortable living writing in that language. paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 14 16:43:10 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:43:10 -0400 Subject: Releasing OS/2 Message-ID: <0IOD00928DMWVMI5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Releasing OS/2 > From: woodelf > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:21:24 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: > >>My original intent was limited to OSs that were operable on PCs. If >>there is OS/9 for PC then by all means but I'd suspect comparison would >>be to unix/linux rather than Dos/win. >> >> >> >Circuit Cellar had a Z8000 and on card for the PC once. Does anybody >remember >just what it ran? Other than 386's was there any other add on cards for >the PC? Cards to add other CPUs to PC are many. At any time there were: 8751 (multiples for Mandelbrot calulations) Z80 Other X86 Z8000 68000 16032 T-11 (PDP-11) All come to mind. Many had no OS as they relied on the host processor for support. Allison From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 16:43:19 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:43:19 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141506.33492.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> <434FFBCC.4080906@yahoo.co.uk> <200510141506.33492.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43502677.1090202@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Jules Richardson declared on Friday 14 October 2005 01:41 pm: > >>Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>>What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be independent >>>of a particular software vendor, so the likes of Visual BASIC isn't >>>an option. You'd also want to write in a language that isn't nearing >>>obsolesence, nor one that's still evolving. "Niche" languages would >>>be out of the question, as longevity could be a problem. >>> >>>So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. >> >>Or Java; at least it's standard, strictly defined, open (in that >>bytecode format etc. is documented), cross-platform, and even if it >>*were* to become obsolete in x years I can't see there not being >>emulators around on current hardware of the day which can emulate a >>DOS / Windows / whatever box and therefore run the compiler or >>runtime. > > > Except that the program you write against today's Java won't compile > against tomorrow's Java. It'll compile just fine. Just with a bunch of deprecation warnings. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 16:47:58 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:47:58 -0400 Subject: FW: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE In-Reply-To: <002e01c5d0ff$d82d9130$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> References: <002e01c5d0ff$d82d9130$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <4350278E.7010508@gmail.com> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Hey folks, last night I recieved the message below. This guy posted an > identical message to Erik's www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum page as well. It might be on the up-and-up, but it does make my bullshit-sense tingle. All I know is that shipping a collection that size across the Atlantic would cost a fortune. > I have no information about the credibility of the seller. It's certainly > not the "largest computer collection in the world" but it should be an > interesting discussion. ;) It's definitely not the largest collection in the world. I have *one machine* that's bigger than that entire collection. Peace... Sridhar > > - Evan > > _____ > > From: INFO at FKI.BE [mailto:info at fki.be] > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 6:18 AM > To: news at computercollector.com > Subject: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE > > > Hi there, > > I am selling my complete collection of computers (over 570 different ones). > If you are interested in some computer(s) from my collection, just mail me > at info AT fki DOT be (replace AT by @ and DOT by .) and I'll add you to the > list of possible buyers. I will then mail you back explaining how I intend > to sell the computers. > As you can see from my 100% positive feedback on Ebay (member ChaosDM) this > is not a scam, but a serious sale. I don't > want to go through Ebay directly, because listing 570 different items > separately would take AGES! > Anyway...the list of the collection can be seen here : > > http://users.pandora.be/F-242/Computers.htm > > There are a LOT of very and ULTRA rare items in there > > For example : > > A GOLDEN C64 WITH COMMEMORATIVE PLAQUE! > A LOT OF ARABIC MSx's > A LOT OF RUSSIAN COMPUTERS > ETC... > > Cheers, > Dimitri Kokken > Belgium > From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Oct 14 16:56:00 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:56:00 -0400 Subject: Need Silent 700 schematic References: Message-ID: <001301c5d10a$128918e0$0100a8c0@screamer> I can't even get the pin-out for the thing! Does anyone know what pins to use for RS-232 I/O? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles" To: Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 12:32 PM Subject: Need Silent 700 schematic > My Silent 700 has decided to stop working. Some of the time. It > won't print anything although it will move the printhead for CR, > LF (but not space or any other printing character) and will sound > the beeper from Ctrl-G (BEL). The keyboard is outputting all > characters properly. > > I took it apart (easy since almost everything snaps in place), > checked the power supply voltages which all seem reasonable, > noticed it was working, put the case back on, now it's broke > again. Aargh. Must be a cold solder joint somewhere but there's > LOTS of parts inside that small case including an 8080 CPU. I > removed the three socketed chips and reinserted. Then I > incautiously got a finger on either 120VAC or rectified 150 VDC, > in an area I was not expecting "hot" voltages. > > =8^0 > > At that point I decided not to play with it any more, at least > without a schematic. Anyone got one, or a service manual? I can't > locate anything online from Googling. > > thanks > Charles > > From news at computercollector.com Fri Oct 14 17:03:21 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:03:21 -0400 Subject: FW: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE In-Reply-To: <4350278E.7010508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004601c5d10b$17f784f0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> >>> It's definitely not the largest collection in the world. I have *one machine* that's bigger than that entire collection. LOL, well he meant in quantity, not physical size. But even in quantity, there are others on this list who have him beat by a LOT. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 5:48 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: FW: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Hey folks, last night I recieved the message below. This guy posted > an identical message to Erik's www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum page as well. It might be on the up-and-up, but it does make my bullshit-sense tingle. All I know is that shipping a collection that size across the Atlantic would cost a fortune. > I have no information about the credibility of the seller. It's > certainly not the "largest computer collection in the world" but it > should be an interesting discussion. ;) It's definitely not the largest collection in the world. I have *one machine* that's bigger than that entire collection. Peace... Sridhar > > - Evan > > _____ > > From: INFO at FKI.BE [mailto:info at fki.be] > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 6:18 AM > To: news at computercollector.com > Subject: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE > > > Hi there, > > I am selling my complete collection of computers (over 570 different ones). > If you are interested in some computer(s) from my collection, just > mail me at info AT fki DOT be (replace AT by @ and DOT by .) and I'll > add you to the list of possible buyers. I will then mail you back > explaining how I intend to sell the computers. > As you can see from my 100% positive feedback on Ebay (member ChaosDM) > this is not a scam, but a serious sale. I don't want to go through > Ebay directly, because listing 570 different items separately would > take AGES! > Anyway...the list of the collection can be seen here : > > http://users.pandora.be/F-242/Computers.htm > > There are a LOT of very and ULTRA rare items in there > > For example : > > A GOLDEN C64 WITH COMMEMORATIVE PLAQUE! > A LOT OF ARABIC MSx's > A LOT OF RUSSIAN COMPUTERS > ETC... > > Cheers, > Dimitri Kokken > Belgium > From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Oct 14 17:03:41 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:03:41 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages Message-ID: <20051014220340.WBFV5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process that >will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years. No direct control of >the process itself is entailed (i.e., you don't need the program to >operation valves or run motors), but you do need this program to compute >manufacturing parameters for each customer. I/O requirements are very >modest, mostly simple keyboard and display. > >What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be independent of a >particular software vendor, so the likes of Visual BASIC isn't an option. >You'd also want to write in a language that isn't nearing obsolesence, nor >one that's still evolving. "Niche" languages would be out of the question, >as longevity could be a problem. > >So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. Impossible to say without a better specification of the application, however given the longevity requirement, unless it was a very bad fit, I would probably use 'C' (not C++, C# etc - plain vanilla 'C') for several reasons: - It's been around a long time, and has been ported to many different platforms, making it a well known and popular language. - It has a reasonably clearly defined standard. - It has always been developed with an eye to portability. - It is still being used in many systems, and is likely to continue to be used for a considerable time into the future. - It's flexible enough to use as a general purpose language, and has the ability to get "down and dirty" if you need. (Ie: It will probably not be a bad environment for the task at hand). But what is probably the most important reason to me: - I have a mature 'C' compiler (I first released it in 1988) which I can port to any damn platform I need, so I don't have to count on having a vendor to support C tools on this future unknown system. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 17:03:49 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:03:49 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <17232.9403.739136.567099@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200510141937.j9EJbdFV009572@onyx.spiritone.com> <200510141347060339.1593099B@10.0.0.252> <17232.9403.739136.567099@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <43502B45.9070100@gmail.com> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: > > > Chuck> So, here's my reasoning. What was the programming atmosphere > Chuck> like in 1975? ... > > Chuck> All this time FORTRAN has survived. Still a great language > Chuck> for number crunching, it's withstood attempts by X3J3 to make > Chuck> it a completely opaque mess of features. By and large, if you > Chuck> write a program in FORTRAN IV or 77, you can find a compiler > Chuck> for just about every machine ever made. > > So has RPG, by the way. My sister makes a very comfortable living > writing in that language. As distasteful as it sounds, there are people I know making their living writing COBOL. Peace... Sridhar From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Oct 14 17:22:40 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:22:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: FW: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE In-Reply-To: <4350278E.7010508@gmail.com> References: <002e01c5d0ff$d82d9130$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <4350278E.7010508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2579.192.168.0.2.1129328560.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, October 14, 2005 10:47 pm, Sridhar Ayengar said: > It's definitely not the largest collection in the world. I have *one > machine* that's bigger than that entire collection. Bigger than 570 individual machines? Assuming it's real of course. Certainly bigger than my paltry 450 machines, I feel ashamed :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 14 14:17:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:17:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 Models I and III available near NE Ohio In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 14, 5 06:13:37 pm Message-ID: > I did get this last Sunday - about 5 large boxes of manuals, binders, > floppies and tapes, plus the computers. I did find time to fire up > the Model III, unfortunately, it seems to have a problem - no text on > power-on, and no indication of anything running except for the usual > drive 0 spin up and access light for about 2 seconds. The screen has > power - you see a white flash and squiggle on power off (usual mono > CRT shutdown kind of flash and squiggle), but never any text or > fragments of text. Pressing the reset button does get a power-on-type > reaction from drive zero, but that's it. Have yopu tired powering up (or pressing reset) while holding down the Break key? A Model 1/3/4 fitted with a disk controller will normally try to boot from drive 0, but if you hold down Break, it'll go into ROM BASIC. You should get a CASS? prompt (hit enter), then MEMORY SIZE (enter again), then get the BASIC sign-on. > > It's been about 22 years since I used a Model III, so my memory is a > little faded about it. Are there any ROM-based diagnostics? Anything > ever get spit out of the serial port? I wish I had a Z-80 pod for my > Fluke 9010A (have 68000 and 6502) - it's a great way to sleuth around > inert micros. The Mofrl 3 is actually quite easy to work on. If you pull the cover, the monitor section comes off with the cover (be careful not to break the CRT neck when removing or refitting that cover!), you can then tip the cover on to the left hand side and put it alongside the base part of the computer and leave all the cables connected. The machine will run like that. The CPU board stabds vertically at the back, possibnly covered withe a metal shield. Remove that, and you're looking at the component side of the PCB. The model 3 is mostly TTL, with some RAM (4116 DRAMs, 2114 SRAMs for the video), ROMs, and a Z80. > > Any and all suggestions (including schematics) are welcome, especially > if anyone knows of a site remotely resembling funet, but for TRS-80 > stuff. I am pretty ssure I found a site with TRS-80 service manuals, etc. Something like www.trs80.org, or www.trs80.com... -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 14 17:31:53 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:31:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <17232.9403.739136.567099@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > So has RPG, by the way. My sister makes a very comfortable living > writing in that language. There is also an amazing amount of COBOL still around (and being developed and maintained). Yes, everyone hates it, but in 2000 years, people will still be able to figure out what a program does just by looking at a printout. Give someone a C source printout in 2000 years, and they are going to be scratching their heads. Especially all those "clever" programmer that try to use neat C tricks. Of course, I would not want to do much non-business programming in COBOL. None, actually, so that would make it a bad choice. For the language of the ages, what is wrong with plain old, well written pseudocode? Being that you just need knowledge of the English (or whatever) language will be all you need to convert it to the platform of the day (which, in 30 years, may be DRASTICALLY different than our dreams). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 14 17:33:27 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:33:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141347060339.1593099B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > All this time FORTRAN has survived. Still a great language for number > crunching, it's withstood attempts by X3J3 to make it a completely opaque > mess of features. By and large, if you write a program in FORTRAN IV or > 77, you can find a compiler for just about every machine ever made. Also, so many models are written in FORTRAN already - models that work, so why reinvent the wheel? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 14 17:35:14 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:35:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <20051014184022.64701.qmail@web51611.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I'm just guessing but I think there is a good reason > for the indifference expressed by big sellers, and its > not a lack of manpower. If you are a seller on ebay > you quickly realize that the bidders who ask the most > questions tend to be the most problematic buyers. Bingo! I get the most problems from the guys that buy audio tubes. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 14 17:36:34 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for a IBM 5110 EMI filter. In-Reply-To: <6A15E72BE8E3D44494D6BDAF3C388E0E0449F6A5@rijpat-s-346.europe.shell.com> Message-ID: > Who can help me with an EMI filter from an IBM 5110 ? > Mine has an internal non-repairable short circuit. Is it the same as the one on the 5100? Sadly, I finally junked my stock of EMI filters, simply because in six years, I did not sell a SINGLE ONE! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 14 17:37:43 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:37:43 -0700 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <0IOD009YNC5TVL95@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOD009YNC5TVL95@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510141537430119.15F84E44@10.0.0.252> On 10/14/2005 at 5:11 PM Allison wrote: >While 1+ing the question we can add 8bit multitasking for Z80 other than >MP/M to look at. Molecular was running MT software simply by using a CPU card for each user. That Durango system (that I'm STILL trying to give away) was designed from the ground up with MT in mind. Since the 8085 can't do dynamic address relocation very easily, we simply put the MT facilities in the compiled (to a sort of P-code) BASIC. File access control and data sharing was a part of it. Except for the very lowest level system utilities, all programs were written in it. A 5 MHz 8085 could support 5 users quite comfortably. Added memory was 1K pages, mapped through 64x9 bipolar RAM. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 17:48:15 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:48:15 -0400 Subject: FW: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE In-Reply-To: <2579.192.168.0.2.1129328560.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <002e01c5d0ff$d82d9130$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <4350278E.7010508@gmail.com> <2579.192.168.0.2.1129328560.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <435035AF.6060401@gmail.com> Witchy wrote: > On Fri, October 14, 2005 10:47 pm, Sridhar Ayengar said: > >>It's definitely not the largest collection in the world. I have *one >>machine* that's bigger than that entire collection. > > > Bigger than 570 individual machines? Assuming it's real of course. > Certainly bigger than my paltry 450 machines, I feel ashamed :) I have one machine which is close to 70 racks full of tubes and boards. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 17:50:59 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:50:59 +1300 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 Models I and III available near NE Ohio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/15/05, Tony Duell wrote: > Have yopu tired powering up (or pressing reset) while holding down the > Break key? A Model 1/3/4 fitted with a disk controller will normally try > to boot from drive 0, but if you hold down Break, it'll go into ROM > BASIC. You should get a CASS? prompt (hit enter), then MEMORY SIZE (enter > again), then get the BASIC sign-on. I did not try that - I knew there was some reset/key combo but had forgotten what key to hit. But I'll try that as soon as I'm in front of the machine again (I'm not home right now). > The Mofrl 3 is actually quite easy to work on. If you pull the cover, the > monitor section comes off with the cover (be careful not to break the CRT > neck when removing or refitting that cover!), Heh... I've worked on Classic Macs... had that lesson already. :-( > The CPU board stabds vertically at the back, possibnly covered withe a > metal shield. Remove that, and you're looking at the component side of > the PCB. The model 3 is mostly TTL, with some RAM (4116 DRAMs, 2114 SRAMs > for the video), ROMs, and a Z80. Right... I did find GIF schematics and pored over them last night. I remembered correctly that there's not anything truely bizarre going on in there - worst case, I can trace faults down to individual chips, then as part of the replacement process, remove them intact and test them in an external hand-held IC tester for final confirmation of the fault. It's easier to clip leads and extract single pins, but I am good at removing chips without damage. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 14 17:00:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:00:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <43502154.2020302@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Oct 14, 5 03:21:24 pm Message-ID: > Circuit Cellar had a Z8000 and on card for the PC once. Does anybody > remember > just what it ran? Other than 386's was there any other add on cards for > the PC? I assume you mean add-on cards with general-purpose programmable processors on them (to list _all_ the ISA cards ever made would take more storage than I have on this machine :-)) There were certauinly : Transputer (both all-on-one cards (host adapater + transputer + RAM) and TRAM motherboards) 68000 (and probably 68020, etc) 6502 (Apple ][ emulators) ARM Various DSPs (I've seen 56000 and TMS32025 ones) Does the TMS34010 graphics processor count? (It's a general enough processor that at least one stand-alone Xterminal ran the Xserver on it). There was a ISA card with that on too. I would be suprised if nobody had ever made a 32016 or Z80 card for the PC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 14 17:08:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:08:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4350178B.3090101@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Oct 14, 5 09:39:39 pm Message-ID: > > Brad Parker wrote: > > But I think the language misses the point. It doesn't matter what > > language it's written in. The important question is what will it run > > on. There are still pdp-11's out there running applications every day > > and it doesn't matter what they were written in. It does matter if the > > 11/44 power supply blows up, however :-) > > Not much though. How long would it take to bodge up a working power > supply for a PDP-11 of any flavour? It's not like it's incredibly > critical, unlike modern PC motherboards. I suspect the original mention of 11/44 was done for a reason. The PDP11/44 poser supply is very complicated inside, it's really 3 separate SMPSUs running off the stame 400V DC supply (rectified mains), with a board of control logic at one end to do things like turn off the CPU and Unibus power, but beep the memory alive. Oh yes, there's an optional battery backup unit for the memory supplies. And even a full-H driver for the special cooling fans (and that is also supplied by the battery unit if fitted). However, DEC schematics are pretty clear, and there's nothing that odd in the PSU. I think I could keep one going, and repair it in less time than it would take to bodge in some modern, less well made and less well documented replacement. However, if you're the sort of peron who'd afraid of coke-can sized capacitors charged to 200V, then there's noting that odd about the outputs of the 11/44 PSU,. There's a 5V rail (120A or so) for the logic and +/-15V rails for the Unibus slots. Another +5V and +/-12V rails for the memory (there's no good reason why the 2 5V rials couldn't be linked if you're not keeping the battery backup). Maybe a -5V. You'd lose the battery backup ability, you'd lose the ability to power down the CPU and Unibus but keep the memory on, and you'd better change the fans for something more convenitonal (12V DC would be the obvious choice). But yes, you could bodge in another PSU without too much hassle. -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 14 18:19:09 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:19:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unisys, shame on you Message-ID: While surfing the Unisys websight, I found nearly NO mention of either Burroughs or Univac. One more reason to like IBM. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From news at computercollector.com Fri Oct 14 18:36:59 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:36:59 -0400 Subject: Unisys, shame on you In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c5d118$2c636960$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> http://www.cc.gatech.edu/services/unisys-folklore/ http://www.unisys.com/about__unisys/history/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 7:19 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Unisys, shame on you While surfing the Unisys websight, I found nearly NO mention of either Burroughs or Univac. One more reason to like IBM. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Fri Oct 14 18:39:48 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051014233948.15633.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: a language that isn't > nearing obsolesence, nor > one that's still evolving. "Niche" languages would > be out of the question, > as longevity could be a problem. > > So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Nice choice, FORTRAN is a wonderful language for engineers (non software), no other language can handle complex numbers with such ease, but I have to say explicit English psuedo code plus any computer language that runs on your computer would be my choice __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Oct 14 18:49:17 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:49:17 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051014184917.5fb7aadb.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:21:42 -0700 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > Here's an interesting problem. > > Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process > that will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years. No direct > control of the process itself is entailed (i.e., you don't need the > program to operation valves or run motors), but you do need this > program to compute manufacturing parameters for each customer. I/O > requirements are very modest, mostly simple keyboard and display. > > What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be independent of > a particular software vendor, so the likes of Visual BASIC isn't an > option. You'd also want to write in a language that isn't nearing > obsolesence, nor one that's still evolving. "Niche" languages would > be out of the question, as longevity could be a problem. > > So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. > > Cheers, > Chuck > 8086 Assembly Language. We will NEVER be rid of it. There are high quality emulators of the 8086 for many platforms. It's definitely NOT a 'niche' language. From brian at quarterbyte.com Fri Oct 14 19:00:56 2005 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:00:56 -0700 Subject: Friden EC-130 calculator schematics? Message-ID: <434FE448.25358.B2678A1@localhost> Hi This is a bit off-topic, since the device isn't programmable, but... does anyone have a set of schematics and/or a service manual for the Friden EC-130 electronic calulator? Google isn't coming up with anything but others' requests for the same. Thanks Brian From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 14 19:01:03 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:01:03 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051014233948.15633.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051014233948.15633.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200510141701030609.16449B3D@10.0.0.252> On 10/14/2005 at 4:39 PM steve wrote: >Nice choice, FORTRAN is a wonderful language for >engineers (non software), no other language can handle >complex numbers with such ease, but I have to say >explicit English psuedo code plus any computer >language that runs on your computer would be my choice Steve, I believe that's called "comments". :) Cheers, Chuck From drb at msu.edu Fri Oct 14 19:03:23 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:03:23 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:31:53 EDT.) References: Message-ID: <200510150003.j9F03OEq016060@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Of course, I would not want to do much non-business programming in > COBOL. None, actually, so that would make it a bad choice. Tangent, and I agree with you about desires, but I did once write a COBOL FD parser in COBOL. If the goal is to make it last 30 years, the desirability of the language may be secondary. De From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 14 19:09:53 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:09:53 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <17232.9046.528348.920764@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> <17232.9046.528348.920764@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200510141709530625.164CB185@10.0.0.252> On 10/14/2005 at 5:29 PM Paul Koning wrote: >C is the obvious choice. In either case, you have to be careful that >you don't wreck the portability by using non-portable I/O. Is it? Given that we don't have 20-20 prescience, how about 20-20 hindsight? Could you implement C on any computer with sufficient memory? How about an IBM 1401, 1620 or 7080? What would you do with all of those nice operators such as <<, >>, &, |, and ^, given that these were decimal machines? OTOH, FORTRAN's been implemented on all of these. Cheers, Chuck From dj.taylor at starpower.net Fri Oct 14 19:19:29 2005 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:19:29 -0400 Subject: luddites! In-Reply-To: <434EFC6A.7060503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200510140014.j9E0EqcU008512@mwave.heeltoe.com> <434EFC6A.7060503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20051014201611.01be5ec0@pop.starpower.net> I remember the very bitter labor union battles the typesetters had with the Washington Post in the 1960's. It was a fight over 'computerizing' the typesetting process, come to think of it the computers were probably PDP-8's. [just to keep it on topic] A number of people lost their jobs to technology, but what a technology! Doug At 08:31 PM 10/13/2005, you wrote: >Brad Parker wrote: > >>They were anti-loosing-your-job-due-to-technology. They didn't think it >>was right that 10 people working should become 3 people working just >>because a new machine was installed... >> >I can't think of were computers really had the most inpact other than >word-processing and accounting. I think it was more >the USA was not as inovative in small things but only large scale >things. >>(and, I think they had a point. I think economists are all smoking >>really good dope when they talk about mythical 'productivity gains') >> >> >productivity gains = more $$ for management from my view point. > >>-brad >> From tradde at excite.com Fri Oct 14 19:27:52 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:27:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unisys, shame on you Message-ID: <20051015002752.D7A641E47E@xprdmailfe24.nwk.excite.com> --- On Fri 10/14, William Donzelli < aw288 at osfn.org > wrote: From: William Donzelli [mailto: aw288 at osfn.org] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:19:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unisys, shame on you While surfing the Unisys websight, I found nearly NO mention of either
Burroughs or Univac.

One more reason to like IBM.

William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org

And what did you expect? I worked for Unisys, and for Sperry before. I am surprised Unisys is still in business, since they don't seem to know what market to get into. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 14 20:24:29 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:24:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unisys, shame on you In-Reply-To: <000601c5d118$2c636960$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: > http://www.unisys.com/about__unisys/history/ Not easy to get to from the homepage! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 14 20:25:43 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141709530625.164CB185@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Is it? Given that we don't have 20-20 prescience, how about 20-20 > hindsight? Could you implement C on any computer with sufficient memory? In 30 years, our processor-memory model might be a thing of the past. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 14 20:28:48 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:28:48 -0400 Subject: Releasing OS/2 Message-ID: <0IOD00CCQO2WB1T4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Releasing OS/2 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:37:43 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/14/2005 at 5:11 PM Allison wrote: > >>While 1+ing the question we can add 8bit multitasking for Z80 other than >>MP/M to look at. > >Molecular was running MT software simply by using a CPU card for each user. One approach. I ran a multiprocessor Z80 system back in '81-82 with one difference idle processors (or processors idling) could take on tasks from the system exec. > >That Durango system (that I'm STILL trying to give away) was designed from >the ground up with MT in mind. Since the 8085 can't do dynamic address >relocation very easily, we simply put the MT facilities in the compiled (to >a sort of P-code) BASIC. File access control and data sharing was a part >of it. Except for the very lowest level system utilities, all programs >were written in it. A 5 MHz 8085 could support 5 users quite comfortably. >Added memory was 1K pages, mapped through 64x9 bipolar RAM. I've done a memory paged 8085 system, interesting. I have to ask, how does all of this fit with the question?: How does OS/2 warp V3 compare to other PC OSs like CDR Concurrnet386 or win3.1? Allison From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Oct 14 20:30:26 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:30:26 -0700 Subject: Need a driver: Intel PCMCIA Flash card In-Reply-To: <200510121213.j9CCDtF2075771@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510121213.j9CCDtF2075771@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200510141830260249.636B3B32@192.168.42.129> Thanks, but re-read my original post. I've already tried CardSoft/CardWizard with ZERO results. *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 12-Oct-05 at 08:04 Chandra Bajpai wrote: >Look for CardSoft / CardWizard from Systemsoft. It should include FFS >drivers if I'm not mistaken to write to this card. > >-Chandra > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Bruce Lane >Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 11:07 PM >To: cctech at classiccmp.org >Subject: Need a driver: Intel PCMCIA Flash card > >Fellow classic'ers, > > I've been all over Intel's site and Google, and have come up empty. > > I have here a 4MB PCMCIA 'FLASH' card with Intel's name and colors >on it. I know it has a standard MS-DOS filesystem on it, and I'm trying to >find a driver to read the thing under Windows 2000 Pro. > > I'll resort to FreeBSD if I have to, but I would prefer otherwise. >I've tried the current version of SystemSoft's CardWizard Pro with no luck. > > Ideas? Declarations? Speeches about how looney the whole idea is? > > Thanks much. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, >Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com >kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m >"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with >surreal ports?" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From vcf at siconic.com Fri Oct 14 21:16:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stonehenge Documentation was: Re: Archival storage In-Reply-To: <200510121429.j9CET0vS077900@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Bob Bradlee wrote: > For fear of driving Sellam off in nausea for keeping this thread alive :) Well at least it's about something cool like Stonehenge and not same lame thread on car engines. But anyway, my bile was roiling over that lame Freeman PC Museum auction that kept getting posted over and over and over... > BTW: is there an indexed archive of this list ? http://www.classiccmp.org/lists.html Click on either list link, then click on the archive link at the top of the area on the right side of the next screen. But eEverytime I try to use the search feature it ends in abject futility. I wish that would get fixed. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 14 21:33:09 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:33:09 -0500 Subject: Stonehenge Documentation was: Re: Archival storage References: Message-ID: <012201c5d130$cd50ff00$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote... > But eEverytime I try to use the search feature it ends in abject futility. > I wish that would get fixed. As I've said many times before... if you use it during the day it chokes, but in the evening it works. During the day the index is rebuilt (yes, it takes the entire day). I have an idea to fix this, but I'm way too busy with the classiccmp website redesign - new features, etc. More later. Yes, it will get fixed so that indexing is quicker. Promise. Jay From James at jdfogg.com Fri Oct 14 21:53:25 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:53:25 -0400 Subject: Unisys, shame on you Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E587F@sbs.jdfogg.com> > While surfing the Unisys websight, I found nearly NO mention > of either
Burroughs or Univac.

One more reason to > like IBM.

William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org

> > And what did you expect? I worked for Unisys, and for Sperry > before. I am surprised Unisys is still in business, since > they don't seem to know what market to get into. Can you still buy a system that supports Poll Select? I love that protocol. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 14 21:55:01 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:55:01 -0700 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <0IOD00CCQO2WB1T4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOD00CCQO2WB1T4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510141955010726.16E3DF1B@10.0.0.252> On 10/14/2005 at 9:28 PM Allison wrote: >I have to ask, how does all of this fit with the question?: You asked about Z80 MT outside of MP/M. I pointed out that there's more than one way to skin a cat. In particular, MT does not have to be an integral feature of the OS itself. In particular, for any system to make optimum use of MT, applications have to be designed with MT in mind. That lets out most of the Z80 off-the-shelf apps and also goes a long way toward explaining why MP/M was so miserable. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 14 22:10:31 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:10:31 -0400 Subject: Releasing OS/2 Message-ID: <0IOD00GE4SSFWES2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Releasing OS/2 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:55:01 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/14/2005 at 9:28 PM Allison wrote: > >>I have to ask, how does all of this fit with the question?: > >You asked about Z80 MT outside of MP/M. I pointed out that there's more >than one way to skin a cat. In particular, MT does not have to be an >integral feature of the OS itself. I did not ask about Z80 MT as a direct part of the question on OS/2. In fact any comments made were along the lines of scarcasm while we are talking about OS/2 lets let in the world of other OSs even the 8 bit ones that are not relevent to OS/2. Maybe for once I was too subtle? As to Z80 MTasking OSs there are several but I elected to layer a task executive on/under CP/M V2 as I had it and there was nothing to say it wouldn't work. Its big value was using all those idle cycles waiting for keystrokes. I did it back around '81-2. and it was an interesting exercise in hardware and software. The real question, the one I'd really like to know more about, was and is: I have OS/2warp3 how does it compare to Concurrent386 and win3.1 in the PC realm? I have both OS/2W3 and CC386 but never installed them for no real reason. What have I missed? Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Oct 14 22:21:53 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:21:53 -0500 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <0IOD009YNC5TVL95@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOD009YNC5TVL95@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051014222153.08583ac4.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:11:19 -0400 Allison wrote: > My original intent was limited to OSs that were operable on PCs. Well, then. Definitely FOCAL running on a PDP-8 emulator. On a PeeCee. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Oct 14 22:23:35 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:23:35 -0500 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <43502154.2020302@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IOD009YNC5TVL95@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <43502154.2020302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051014222335.1b4ad4bb.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:21:24 -0600 woodelf wrote: > Allison wrote: > > >My original intent was limited to OSs that were operable on PCs. If > >there is OS/9 for PC then by all means but I'd suspect comparison > >would be to unix/linux rather than Dos/win. > > > > > > > Circuit Cellar had a Z8000 and on card for the PC once. Does anybody > remember > just what it ran? Other than 386's was there any other add on cards > for the PC? > I have a Z-80 card for the PC. I think it's called a 'Blue Lightening.' From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 14 22:28:04 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:28:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <20051014222335.1b4ad4bb.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > > just what it ran? Other than 386's was there any other add on cards > > for the PC? > > > > I have a Z-80 card for the PC. I think it's called a 'Blue Lightening.' Quite a few manufacturers made evaluation boards that happened to fit in PeeCees. For a while I used some OCR software that used an AMD 29K PeeCee based eval board - probably something that AMD never really intended (and a damn weird matchup!). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 14 22:29:42 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:29:42 -0700 Subject: Unisys, shame on you In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510142029420041.17039CEE@10.0.0.252> On 10/14/2005 at 9:24 PM William Donzelli wrote: >> http://www.unisys.com/about__unisys/history/ > >Not easy to get to from the homepage! Dubious claim dept: "1965 Sperry introduces the 1108, the first multiprocessor computer." Is there an earlier multiprocessor than the Burroughs D825? (1963) Cheers, Chuck From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Oct 14 22:31:43 2005 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:31:43 -0500 Subject: how_to_build book online Message-ID: <000001c5d138$f6c55b30$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> I finally (re)found my copy of "How to Build A Working Digital Computer" by Alcosser, et al, published in 1967. This is the "paper clips and spools" computer - definitely worth a look - http://www.sideslip.net/digital_compu/ . It's a scan of a copy from a dying book so parts of it are not too pretty but I think its all there. Enjoy - Jack From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Fri Oct 14 22:34:14 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141701030609.16449B3D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051015033414.27138.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: >explicit English psuedo code plus any computer > >language that runs on your computer would be my > choice > > Steve, I believe that's called "comments". :) > Well I referring to PDL and its siblings, a structured form of English that explicited (without the syntax quirks of specific computer languages), it doesn't explain why something is being done, like comments do, its just a duplicate of the code written in english http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/P/pseudocode.html in this case the "compiler" is a english speaking human, a good bet they will exist for a long time __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From brother_cadfael at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 14 22:37:44 2005 From: brother_cadfael at sbcglobal.net (Brian H.) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement Message-ID: <20051015033744.57302.qmail@web81810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> William There are plenty of extremely valid 2nd chance offers. In the surplus business, it is extremely common to buy a lot of one item, and if one of the auctions does extremely well, only a foolish seller would not try to take advantage of the deal. I use them all the time, and yes, they do work enough times that I keep using them. I've been the buyer in two such transactions myself, I was glad to have the chance. I have said it before - I will say it again - pissing off a dealer is one of the dumbest things a collector can do. I couldn't agree more, it's right up there with pissing off food servers, doctors & auto mechanics! BTW what is the name of your eBay business? Brian Hanson From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 14 22:43:57 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:43:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: <20051015033744.57302.qmail@web81810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I couldn't agree more, it's right up there with pissing off food > servers, doctors & auto mechanics! BTW what is the name of your eBay > business? Federal Signal and Ironworks, Inc. is the name. Search for "toober" on Ebay. Bid on what you see. Thank you. Sorry about the plug, Jay, but he asked! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 14 22:47:27 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:47:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unisys, shame on you In-Reply-To: <200510142029420041.17039CEE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Dubious claim dept: > > "1965 Sperry introduces the 1108, the first multiprocessor computer." Dubious claim dept, Bureau of loopholes: The word "introduces" is key. Also, the absent phrase "purpose built". William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From charlesmorris at direcway.com Fri Oct 14 22:53:31 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:53:31 -0500 Subject: PING: Ashley Carder Message-ID: I've been trying to contact you... Are my emails getting through or vanishing into the ether? Direcway is notorious as a conduit for spammers and is often blocked without warning, but it's my only option here in the country other than dialup :( -Charles From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Oct 14 23:06:24 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:06:24 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <434FFE8A.50607@srv.net> Message-ID: <200510150416.j9F4GHui043800@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Are there any schools teaching FORTRAN and more? Does it have > an active community? If not, you are going to have problems > finding good FORTRAN programmers in 30 years. I don't know, > but lately I haven't seen many people who know anything about > FORTRAN except that it was an early programming language. > Also, which version of FORTRAN (IV, 90, Watfor, ...) do you > want to develop around. ... I have a nephew who got his PhD in Astrophysics a few years back. He says FORTRAN is about all they use because they have vast libraries of FORTRAN code that they can slap together to do big projects quickly. It has been developed over quite a few years and is well debugged. Gil From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Oct 14 23:06:25 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:06:25 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <434FFAFB.3030905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510150416.j9F4GHuj043800@keith.ezwind.net> ... > > What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be > independent of > > a particular software vendor, so the likes of Visual BASIC > isn't an option. ... > Native-compiled Java. Ruled out. Gil > > Peace... Sridhar From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Oct 14 23:06:25 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:06:25 -0500 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510150416.j9F4GHuk043800@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Here's an interesting problem. > > Suppose you wanted to write an application for a > manufacturing process that will, in all probability, run for > the next 30 years. No direct control of the process itself > is entailed (i.e., you don't need the program to operation > valves or run motors), but you do need this program to > compute manufacturing parameters for each customer. I/O > requirements are very modest, mostly simple keyboard and display. > > What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be > independent of a particular software vendor, so the likes of > Visual BASIC isn't an option. > You'd also want to write in a language that isn't nearing > obsolescence, nor one that's still evolving. "Niche" > languages would be out of the question, as longevity could be > a problem. > > So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. COBOL. I once wrote a spelling checker in COBOL. Call me crazy, but I was making $10,000 a month in the mid '80s with that package. Unfortunately the hardware vendor killed the product & I had to get an honest job. Also, see this article "Is COBOL the 18-Wheeler of the Web?" http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1237807,00.asp Gil From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Oct 14 23:06:25 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:06:25 -0500 Subject: Old Microcomputer RAM Board w/ Tons of Socketted 4116 In-Reply-To: <200510140924120942.14A25900@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510150416.j9F4GHul043800@keith.ezwind.net> eBay item # 8708356536 Gil From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Oct 14 23:18:13 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:18:13 -0500 Subject: FW: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE In-Reply-To: <435035AF.6060401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510150428.j9F4S2Oa044009@keith.ezwind.net> ... > I have one machine which is close to 70 racks full of tubes > and boards. And it's a ... ? > > Peace... Sridhar From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Oct 14 23:25:29 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 00:25:29 -0400 Subject: GDS Tapeouts solved... In-Reply-To: <200510142108.j9EL8Q10021478@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200510142108.j9EL8Q10021478@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <435084B9.2070607@atarimuseum.com> I actually already had the netlists for Pokey and for the cmos version of Pokey called Meg. Curt Brad Parker wrote: >"Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > > >>interesting. I have some tapeouts for AMY and SILVER which were a >>sound and graphics chipset that Atari Corp. research had been working on >> >> > >Do you have the pokey? I think I'd like a wall plot of that just for >old time humor sake... > >(I did a little time with the pokey 'back in the day' - like 83 & 84) > >-brad > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.0/134 - Release Date: 10/14/2005 From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Oct 14 23:26:01 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 00:26:01 -0400 Subject: GDS Tapeouts solved... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435084D9.10209@atarimuseum.com> I have the full spec/data sheets on just about all of the chips which is good, much of which is already posted up on atarimuseum.com Curt Jos Dreesen wrote: >> >> Well, I thought I'd share this info with everyone as I know I've >> asked many a times to the group if anyone could assist and I've been >> at this now since, oh about 2003, so its good to finally be able to >> access this data at last. > > > I would guess it is probably less work to recreate them from scratch > using VHDL. > You do have datasheets on them, or is it just the GDSII ? > Information on how to use the chips is far more important than just > the layout data. > > > > Jos Dreesen > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.0/134 - Release Date: 10/14/2005 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 14 23:40:52 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:40:52 -0700 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510150416.j9F4GHuk043800@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510150416.j9F4GHuk043800@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200510142140520245.1744C494@10.0.0.252> On 10/14/2005 at 8:34 PM steve wrote: >Well I referring to PDL and its siblings, a structured >form of English that explicited (without the syntax >quirks of specific computer languages), it doesn't >explain why something is being done, like comments do, >its just a duplicate of the code written in english I dunno, Steve--it sounds as if it's subject to the same quirks as idiot-written comments. I start grinding my teeth when I read stuff like this: PSHR R2 ; Push R2 onto the stack MVII 10,R1 ; Move 10 to R1 CLRR R2 ; Clear R2 OK1 JSR R5,FOOP ; Call FOOP DECR R1 ; Decrement R1 BNZE OK1 ; Branch to OK1 if not zero A comment on every line that describes exactly what's happening without any sort "big picture". Absolutely meaningless. Give me a "Dutch Uncle" commentary any day that explains in general terms what we're trying to do and how we're doing it. ...and then keep it current with revisions (hear that, Microsoft?). I suppose one could code the problem in machine code, then furnish a pseudocode description of the machine architecture, too--and never explain in general terms what the heck is going on. Cheers, Chuck > > http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/P/pseudocode.html > >in this case the "compiler" is a english speaking >human, a good bet they will exist for a long time > > > > > >__________________________________ >Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 >http://mail.yahoo.com From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Oct 15 00:31:59 2005 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 00:31:59 -0500 Subject: Unisys, shame on you In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:29:42 -0700 . <200510142029420041.17039CEE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051015053549.LLVW2401.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> In message <200510142029420041.17039CEE at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: >Dubious claim dept: > >"1965 Sperry introduces the 1108, the first multiprocessor computer." > >Is there an earlier multiprocessor than the Burroughs D825? (1963) How about BINAC. Okay, there was only one produced and the two processors were for redundancy rather than performance, but it was a dual processor system. BLS From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Fri Oct 14 13:58:38 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:58:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510141908.j9EJ8ICi034078@keith.ezwind.net> most likely, Ansi C Most of my stuff was in LISP, which is about the same age as speedcode I mean fortran :) My speciality was parameter driven CAD producing M&G code for machining centers. We still have some turning applications punching paper tape or running BTR paper tape emulators to talk to the machines. The only valve we turn on is coolant On and coolant off but we cut a lot of parts in a lot of plants around the world. It is very hard to generalize about manufacturing. How about the manufacture of software ? my first question is what are we making ? is it solid, liquid, or gases ? Bob On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:21:42 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Here's an interesting problem. >Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process that >will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years. No direct control of >the process itself is entailed (i.e., you don't need the program to >operation valves or run motors), but you do need this program to compute >manufacturing parameters for each customer. I/O requirements are very >modest, mostly simple keyboard and display. >What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be independent of a >particular software vendor, so the likes of Visual BASIC isn't an option. >You'd also want to write in a language that isn't nearing obsolesence, nor >one that's still evolving. "Niche" languages would be out of the question, >as longevity could be a problem. >So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. >Cheers, >Chuck From cmurillo at autonoma.edu.co Fri Oct 14 16:19:09 2005 From: cmurillo at autonoma.edu.co (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:19:09 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <038601c5d0f3$d4443f80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> <434FFE8A.50607@srv.net> <038601c5d0f3$d4443f80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <435020CD.3070208@autonoma.edu.co> John Allain wrote: >>Are there any schools teaching FORTRAN and more? Does it >>have an active community? If not, ... Just look at the traffic in comp.lang.fortran... > Amazingly*, Yes. > I go visit my old college bookstore every few years for fresh titles > in Computer Science (this year: I bought O/S internals by Stallings). > It's a top 25 undergraduate engineering ranked place with a big > budget for new equipment so I was quite surprised to see this year > the book "Classical Fortran" by Kupferschmid. In my head I'm thinking > Fortran is Only for classiccmps and classiccmps are Retired equipment. > Apparently this course is for maintenence programmers. > > John A. A lot of scientific computing is still done in FORTRAN. A common approach is to code the numerics guts in Fortran, and call it from C or something else. Like it or not, FORTRAN is still widely used by the numerical scientific computing community. I even know why, but I don't want to star a language war. Carlos. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Oct 14 18:06:17 2005 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 00:06:17 +0100 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <43502154.2020302@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IOD009YNC5TVL95@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <43502154.2020302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <435039E9.8060102@gifford.co.uk> woodelf wrote: > Circuit Cellar had a Z8000 and on card for the PC once. It was called the Trump Card, and was described by Steve Ciarcia in the May and June 1984 issues of Byte. > Does anybody remember just what it ran? It had a clone of the MS-DOS BASICA, called TBASIC. It claimed to run BASICA programs on the Z8000, much faster than they ran on the 8088. There was also a C compiler, a Z80 emulator that ran CP/M, a RAM disk for MS-DOS, a debugger and a language compiler called Y. The article ends with a claim that UNIX will be available for the board. > Other than 386's was there any other add on cards for > the PC? There was the Definicon board for the PC with a National Semiconductor 32000 chip on it. Also decribed in Byte, a few years after the Trump Card. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From Pat_Fitzpatrick at pmc-sierra.com Fri Oct 14 13:00:58 2005 From: Pat_Fitzpatrick at pmc-sierra.com (Pat Fitzpatrick) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:00:58 -0700 Subject: Logic Analyzer Recommendations Message-ID: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8962E5837@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> Hi All, My current logic analyzers (an HP 64000 system and a Dolch LAM4850) have been forced into early retirement and I'm looking for a replacement. I need around 100 channels, not terribly fast (100-250 MHz -- faster is ok too, obviously) and it might be handy to have the ability to plug in a scope card and/or a pattern generator. I've used the HP 16500 quite a bit (in a past life) but I have not had much experience with other machines (Tektronix TLA7xx, HP 167x etc). There seems to be a lot of 16500 mainframes and cards available -- but they are getting old and they are pretty BIG. OK, so an HP 64000 ain't exactly petite either so maybe size doesn't matter THAT much... Anyhow, I'm looking for recommendations. Something that will give a few years of service, and cost less than $4000 (or thereabouts). I have to keep these poor old computers running somehow -- plus a few new developments from time to time. Advice would be appreciated, Pat From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Fri Oct 14 17:12:35 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:12:35 -0400 Subject: FW: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE In-Reply-To: <4350278E.7010508@gmail.com> References: <002e01c5d0ff$d82d9130$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <4350278E.7010508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.4.2.20051014181019.03367838@boff-net.dhs.org> Um, I can actually vouch for that one, hehe. Brings new meaning to Big (heavy-ass) Iron. Interesting collection that the chap has though. Too bad he is in Europe/Belgium... -John Boffemmyer IV At 05:47 PM 10/14/2005, you wrote: >'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >>Hey folks, last night I recieved the message below. This guy posted an >>identical message to Erik's www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum page as well. > >It might be on the up-and-up, but it does make my bullshit-sense >tingle. All I know is that shipping a collection that size across >the Atlantic would cost a fortune. > >>I have no information about the credibility of the seller. It's certainly >>not the "largest computer collection in the world" but it should be an >>interesting discussion. ;) > >It's definitely not the largest collection in the world. I have >*one machine* that's bigger than that entire collection. > >Peace... Sridhar > >> >>- Evan >> _____ >>From: INFO at FKI.BE [mailto:info at fki.be] Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 6:18 AM >>To: news at computercollector.com >>Subject: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE >> >>Hi there, >>I am selling my complete collection of computers (over 570 >>different ones). If you are interested in some computer(s) from my >>collection, just mail me >>at info AT fki DOT be (replace AT by @ and DOT by .) and I'll add you to the >>list of possible buyers. I will then mail you back explaining how I intend >>to sell the computers. As you can see from my 100% positive >>feedback on Ebay (member ChaosDM) this >>is not a scam, but a serious sale. I don't want to go through Ebay >>directly, because listing 570 different items >>separately would take AGES! Anyway...the list of the collection can >>be seen here : >>http://users.pandora.be/F-242/Computers.htm >>There are a LOT of very and ULTRA rare items in there >>For example : >>A GOLDEN C64 WITH COMMEMORATIVE PLAQUE! A LOT OF ARABIC MSx's A LOT >>OF RUSSIAN COMPUTERS ETC... >>Cheers, Dimitri Kokken Belgium > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.0/134 - Release Date: 10/14/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.0/134 - Release Date: 10/14/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.0/134 - Release Date: 10/14/2005 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 15 01:28:31 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:28:31 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141347060339.1593099B@10.0.0.252> References: <200510141937.j9EJbdFV009572@onyx.spiritone.com> <200510141347060339.1593099B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: >This is actually not as hypothetical as it soiunds. I'm working with a >firm that manufactures parts for nuclear reactors. Parts certification >alone can take years. I remember a friend working for GE in the 80's >remarking that their computers in the field were still built of discrete >semiconductors, with core and running from paper tape. > >One has to keep in mind that companies are bought and sold, sell off and >scrap assets, assets are destroyed, etc. So keeping some sort of hardware >arouind to run this stuff is not an option. Actually I think having the hardware around to run it isn't simply an option, it's a requirement. Once it's certified, you can't easily substitute out different hardware. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Oct 15 01:43:41 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 08:43:41 +0200 Subject: FW: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE In-Reply-To: <4350278E.7010508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <062CDC5F-3D47-11DA-AAB2-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> > > It might be on the up-and-up, but it does make my bullshit-sense > tingle. All I know is that shipping a collection that size across the > Atlantic would cost a fortune. > >> I have no information about the credibility of the seller. It's >> certainly >> not the "largest computer collection in the world" but it should be an >> interesting discussion. ;) > > Although I have never met him, the chap is a regular contributor to CVML, a dutch language CLASSICCMP variant. It is almost certainly genuine. Jos Dreesen From bert at brothom.nl Sat Oct 15 03:15:19 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:15:19 +0100 Subject: OS/2 vs Win3.1 In-Reply-To: <0IOD00CCQO2WB1T4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOD00CCQO2WB1T4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4350BA97.4070202@brothom.nl> Allison wrote: > How does OS/2 warp V3 compare to other PC OSs like CDR Concurrnet386 or > win3.1? I don't know anything about Concurrent386, but comparing OS/2 Warp with win 3.1 is like comparing pigs with streetlights. Win3.1 is a graphical shell around DOS. To overcome DOS' memory limitations is uses some more advanced techniques of the processor, such as protected mode. However, win3.1 programs are 16-bit. Win3.1 itself is 16 bit. Win 3.1 only allows cooperative multitasking. That means that a another program can only get control if the running program gives it up. This is a very short summery of Win3.1 OS/2 2.0 and higher are 32-bit operating systems. However, compatibility with older OS/2 applications was considered very important and therefore parts of the kernel and all device drivers are mainly 16 bit. Only recently some 32-bit device drivers were written. OS/2 has its own graphical subsystem - a very advanced one. It can run DOS programs in 'virtual dos machines' or VDM. A special mode of the 386 processor allows a task to act as if it where a real mode task. Anything that task does can trap the processor and thus can be handled by exception handlers. OS/2 is very strong is this area. OS/2 has its own file system with some special features like "extended attributes". OS/2 has dynamic priorities for tasks, that makes it more responsive. For example, a task that has focus in the GUI is slightly raised in priority. Or when a background task was blocking for something it might receive a slight priority boost when that something becomes available. OS/2's time critical priority is handled "soft realtime". I've used OS/2 in the past for process control, dosing in particular. For such applications realtime behaviour is very important as a lattency of 1 sec or more is disasterous for the product being manufactered. I can go on and on, but if you want to know more let me know and I write it down later on. Regards, Bert From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 15 03:04:37 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 01:04:37 -0700 Subject: Friden EC-130 calculator schematics? References: <434FE448.25358.B2678A1@localhost> Message-ID: <4350B815.71F0808E@cs.ubc.ca> Brian Knittel wrote: > This is a bit off-topic, since the device > isn't programmable, but... does anyone > have a set of schematics and/or a service > manual for the Friden EC-130 electronic > calulator? Google isn't coming up with > anything but others' requests for the same. No, don't have a schematic, but if anyone wants to lend me a physical unit, I'll reverse engineer it. :) (..seriously; it's one I have wanted to RE.) There is a limited technical description about the arithmetic-unit/encoding by Nicholas Bodley on the web, you've probably found it already, if not I can try to find the link (I think it's on Rick Bensene's site). From bernd at kopriva.de Sat Oct 15 03:09:26 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:09:26 +0200 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <435039E9.8060102@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051015072321.672BC395E7@linux.local> On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 00:06:17 +0100, John Honniball wrote: >woodelf wrote: >> Circuit Cellar had a Z8000 and on card for the PC once. > >It was called the Trump Card, and was described by >Steve Ciarcia in the May and June 1984 issues of >Byte. > >> Does anybody remember just what it ran? > >It had a clone of the MS-DOS BASICA, called TBASIC. >It claimed to run BASICA programs on the Z8000, much >faster than they ran on the 8088. There was also a >C compiler, a Z80 emulator that ran CP/M, a RAM disk >for MS-DOS, a debugger and a language compiler >called Y. The article ends with a claim that UNIX >will be available for the board. ... but there was no real operating system available. BTW: i'm still searching for a trump card (tried to get one for quite some years), maybe some can halp me on this ? > >> Other than 386's was there any other add on cards for >> the PC? > >There was the Definicon board for the PC with a National >Semiconductor 32000 chip on it. Also decribed in Byte, >a few years after the Trump Card. > Definicion did both a 68020 and a NS32032 addon card, they both did not have a "real" operating system. In addition to the runtime environment on PC side, they had some native libraries available, which supported the basic I/O stuff, for the rest, you were on your own ... Opus Systems made some PC add on cards as well (with NS32032/NS32332 and at least one variant with a SUN Sparc processor !), they included a complete Unix operating system ... ... there were quite some manufacturers "in the good times", that developed such solutions. I already own some of those boards, but i'm still interested in such PC add-on board stuff, so if you have one you want to part with, please let me know :) Ciao Bernd From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sat Oct 15 03:10:41 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:10:41 +0200 Subject: FW: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE References: <062CDC5F-3D47-11DA-AAB2-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <001c01c5d15f$ef2513d0$2101a8c0@finans> Fra: "Jos Dreesen" Til: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sendt: 15. oktober 2005 08:43 Emne: Re: FW: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE > Although I have never met him, the chap is a regular contributor to > CVML, a dutch language CLASSICCMP variant. > It is almost certainly genuine. > > Jos Dreesen Hallo Jos Wat is de volle naam van die newsgroup? Ik kan 'm bij mijn provider niet onmiddellijk vinden Nico From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sat Oct 15 03:17:45 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:17:45 +0200 Subject: FW: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE References: <062CDC5F-3D47-11DA-AAB2-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> <001c01c5d15f$ef2513d0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <000a01c5d160$ec50c8b0$2101a8c0@finans> Fra: "Nico de Jong" > > Hallo Jos > > Wat is de volle naam van die newsgroup? Ik kan 'm bij mijn provider niet > onmiddellijk vinden > > Nico > Begging your pardon. This should have been off-list From bernd at kopriva.de Sat Oct 15 03:21:07 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:21:07 +0200 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051015073502.3C480395E7@linux.local> On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:28:04 -0400 (EDT), William Donzelli wrote: >> > just what it ran? Other than 386's was there any other add on cards >> > for the PC? >> > >> >> I have a Z-80 card for the PC. I think it's called a 'Blue Lightening.' > >Quite a few manufacturers made evaluation boards that happened to fit in >PeeCees. For a while I used some OCR software that used an AMD 29K PeeCee >based eval board - probably something that AMD never really intended (and >a damn weird matchup!). I have such an AMD 29K board, but i never got my hands on software for it ... ... there were some traces of that software on the AMD site, but when asking details on that, noone could remember ... > Ciao Bernd From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sat Oct 15 03:22:33 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 04:22:33 -0400 Subject: Releasing OS/2 Message-ID: <20051015082233.69759200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > There were certauinly : > > Transputer (both all-on-one cards (host adapater + transputer + RAM) and > TRAM motherboards) > [...] IBM had even produced a 370 as a set of adapter cards for the original PC. The package was called PC/370. The processor(s?) were 68000s with IBM microcode. AFAIK they used more than one, but I am not sure how many. **vp From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sat Oct 15 03:26:47 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 04:26:47 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages Message-ID: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Paul Koning wrote: > C is the obvious choice. In either case, you have to be careful that > you don't wreck the portability by using non-portable I/O. Er, how big is an int? a pointer? **vp From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 15 03:48:23 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 02:48:23 -0600 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <4350C257.8080601@jetnet.ab.ca> Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: >Paul Koning wrote: > > >>C is the obvious choice. In either case, you have to be careful that >>you don't wreck the portability by using non-portable I/O. >> >> > >Er, how big is an int? a pointer? > > well a ant is small , a pointer is some kind of dog. The most real non-portable C factor is everybody expects bytes to 8 bits and CR,LF line endings are a bitch. I think a character can be 7 or more bits, a int something bigger like 16. ( As far as I know C never made it to a PDP8 ). >**vp > >. > > > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Oct 15 04:02:32 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:02:32 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <435020CD.3070208@autonoma.edu.co> References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> <434FFE8A.50607@srv.net> <038601c5d0f3$d4443f80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <435020CD.3070208@autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: <4350C5A8.30001@gjcp.net> Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > by the numerical scientific computing community. I even know > why, but I don't want to star a language war. > > Carlos. Aw go on, tell us... I for one would love to know why, if only to see if it's worth brushing up my rather rusty FORTRAN "skills". Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Oct 15 04:56:26 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:56:26 +0100 Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4350D24A.1040703@gjcp.net> William Donzelli wrote: >>I couldn't agree more, it's right up there with pissing off food >>servers, doctors & auto mechanics! BTW what is the name of your eBay >>business? > > > Federal Signal and Ironworks, Inc. is the name. > > Search for "toober" on Ebay. Ah, it's you that's selling that 4116 board? What do you reckon it came out of? Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Oct 15 05:03:20 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:03:20 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4350D3E8.5000209@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > outputs of the 11/44 PSU,. There's a 5V rail (120A or so) for the logic That's not a power supply, that's a MIG welder. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Oct 15 05:07:08 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:07:08 +0100 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4350D4CC.2030604@gjcp.net> William Donzelli wrote: > Bingo! > > I get the most problems from the guys that buy audio tubes. Why would you buy audio tubes, or valves as we call them over here, from eBay, when they're cheap enough in Maplins? Gordon. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Oct 15 07:35:04 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 07:35:04 -0500 Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: <20051015033744.57302.qmail@web81810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051015033744.57302.qmail@web81810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051015073504.08b91ff9.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:37:44 -0700 (PDT) "Brian H." wrote: > William > > > There are plenty of extremely valid 2nd chance offers. In the surplus > business, it is extremely common to buy a lot of one item, and if one > of the auctions does extremely well, only a foolish seller would not > try to take advantage of the deal. I use them all the time, and yes, > they do work enough times that I keep using them. > > > I've been the buyer in two such transactions myself, I was glad to > have the chance. > > > > I have said it before - I will say it again - pissing off a dealer is > one of the dumbest things a collector can do. > > > I couldn't agree more, it's right up there with pissing off food > servers, doctors & auto mechanics! BTW what is the name of your eBay > business? > Except you don't have to go to a resturant to eat. You can go to another mechanic. And you can get old computer stuff directly and/or from another dealer. I find the whole 'dealer' / 'collector' dichotomy disturbing. As if there is some magical divide between the two. Maybe it's because I am also slightly involved in another, more 'mature' hobby of coin collecting, where the 'dealer' / 'collector' split takes a lot of the fun out of it. Worrying about 'pissing off a dealer' is one of the dumber things a 'collector' can do. Why even play into that mindset? Why even give legitimacy to such self-proclaimed titles? -- From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Oct 15 09:00:14 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:00:14 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051015085442.0bf4b858@localhost> Ah, C. Then you have to re-argue the whole question of indentation, depending on what your religion believes regarding what amount of whitespace is holy and where it should be placed. "Indentation- The Eightfold Path" --Anonymous 01234567 <--The world famous Indent-o-Meter. --Lloyd Zusman ljz at well.sf.ca.us And my absolute favorite of all time: "In My Egotistical Opinion, most people's C programs should be indented six feet downward and covered with dirt." --Blair P. Houghton At 04:26 AM 10/15/2005 -0400, you wrote: >Paul Koning wrote: > > C is the obvious choice. In either case, you have to be careful that > > you don't wreck the portability by using non-portable I/O. > >Er, how big is an int? a pointer? > >**vp [Genius] Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration. --Thomas A. Edison --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 15 09:50:29 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:50:29 -0400 Subject: Releasing OS/2 Message-ID: <0IOE00JC7P6TNIX1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Releasing OS/2 > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:21:53 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:11:19 -0400 >Allison wrote: > >> My original intent was limited to OSs that were operable on PCs. > >Well, then. Definitely FOCAL running on a PDP-8 emulator. On a PeeCee. Nah, taks all the fun out of it. Focal running on the 8f, blinkin lights! Allison From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 15 09:58:04 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: <4350D24A.1040703@gjcp.net> Message-ID: > Ah, it's you that's selling that 4116 board? What do you reckon it came > out of? I do not kow, but my guess is some generic memory box, probably used with a mainframe of sorts. Mostek made such things, as did National Semiconductor, Intel, and most of the other big players in the 1970s. I have one that appears to be compatible - almost identical - made by zitel. This one is very interesting as all the chips are Intel, and even the zitel logo is very intel-esque. I wonder if zitel was a short lived named for Intels memory division. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rickb at bensene.com Sat Oct 15 09:58:08 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 07:58:08 -0700 Subject: Friden EC-130 calculator schematics? In-Reply-To: <4350B815.71F0808E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20051015145438.72FE997C30@pail.bensene.com> > Brian Knittel wrote: > This is a bit off-topic, since the device isn't programmable, but... > does anyone have a set of schematics and/or a service > manual for the Friden EC-130 electronic calulator? Google isn't coming up > with anything but others' requests for the same. I've been looking for schematics for this machine since the early 1990's, and as yet have come up dry. They just don't seem to be out there. My understanding is that generally, service technicians in the field were trained to repair the machines on a module basis, e.g., replace this circuit board if it exhibits this symptom. Service technicians didn't need schematics, because all they really needed was troubleshooting guide, a knowledge of general operating theory, good test equipment, and a kit full of every spare assembly needed. This made it unnecessary for them to repair things down to the component level, except in the case of the power supply, which may require replacement of individual components. Everything else was modular. As a result, field techs likely didn't need schematics -- and that was a good thing, because field techs could be 'loose' in their care of schematics, allowing copies to be made, leaving them behind, etc., which will generally not maliciously intended, could result in competitors getting their hands on the design, which, in those days as it is today, can be a big problem. The closest thing out there are the US Patents that describe the machine. The patents are quite detailed, and diagram everything at a 'building block' level. They are likely not a 100% accurate reflection of the actual productionn EC-130 (for a number of reasons), but they give a great level of detail about the architecture and methods by which the machine operates, and lots of logic-gate level "schematics", and timing diagrams. The relevant patent numbers are: 3465301, 3523282 and 3546676. You can get to these patents online through the US Patent & Trademark Office Website (www.uspto.gov). Nicholas Bodley (a former Friden service technician) wrote an essay on his memories of the architecture and operation of the machine. You can find this on my website at http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/nbodley. Reading this, combined with absorbing the data in the patents, can give someone with a solid electronics background a good idea of what is going on inside the machine. Making an extender board, and with good test instrumentation (a good four-channel oscilloscope is invaluable, and if one is available, a logic analyser with settable logic thresholds), it should be possible to track down where the problem lies. The most common problems with these machines are failures in the switched capacitor voltage multiplier that generates the 3KV for the CRT, problems with the delay line adjustments or component failuers in the delay line transmit and/or receive amplifiers, and lastly problems in the CRT deflection/drive circuitry. Failures in the logic package are pretty rare, actually. If you can describle the problem(s) you are seeing with the machine, I might be able to provide some hints. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com Beavercreek, Oregon From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 15 09:59:32 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:59:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <4350D4CC.2030604@gjcp.net> Message-ID: > Why would you buy audio tubes, or valves as we call them over here, from > eBay, when they're cheap enough in Maplins? Because a 12AX7 (ECC83) made by ICC and an identical 12AXY (ECC83) made by Telefunken makes ALL the difference. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Oct 15 10:14:55 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 16:14:55 +0100 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> William Donzelli wrote: >>Why would you buy audio tubes, or valves as we call them over here, from >>eBay, when they're cheap enough in Maplins? > > > Because a 12AX7 (ECC83) made by ICC and an identical 12AXY (ECC83) made by > Telefunken makes ALL the difference. Mmm. To the gold-plated speaker cable brigade, perhaps. Gordon. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 15 10:28:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:28:20 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages Message-ID: <0IOE00ANZQXWEHI3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT: Language for the ages > From: Gordon JC Pearce > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:02:32 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > >> by the numerical scientific computing community. I even know >> why, but I don't want to star a language war. >> >> Carlos. > >Aw go on, tell us... I for one would love to know why, if only to see >if it's worth brushing up my rather rusty FORTRAN "skills". > >Gordon. This is opinion and observation over 36years of computing I've been hands on with. The term "large frame" is any computer that is not a micro but includes examples like the LSI-11 which was the cusp of mini to micro. Micro is specifically anything that exists as a chip fromthe basic 8bitter 8008, through the non racked Pentium. Fortran is definately one of the languages. There are many languages based on or spawned from it. FOCAL comes to mind as a varient. Just about any multipurpose cpu has Fortran for it. Considered a large frame language by many but the major micros have compilers too. The legacy of Fortran is is number crunching in all its forms which covers a lot of ground. The most strongly held ground I've seen is numerical modeling. BASIC is another widespread language. Likely the second most(runs neck and neck with fortran) widely ported to micro and large frame processors. The legacy of BASIC is one language, billions of dialects. BASIC runs from interger minimum subsets to full bore structured languages with data typing to the fully visual forms that do not look like BASIC at all. Those two alone run close to assembly in frequency of occurance for any cpu. For "systems work" it would appear C is it. Though C is a common cross compiled language for wide variety of embedded cpus. The biggest assumption I've seen with C is that it's likely in or around a unix (or unix like) environment for use or development. Since the mid 80s that is less so. Once you get past those the what language for what work tends to stratify based on application and preference. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 15 10:37:57 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:37:57 -0400 Subject: OS/2 vs Win3.1 Message-ID: <0IOE00HZVRDX2PH6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: OS/2 vs Win3.1 > From: Bert Thomas > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:15:19 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >> How does OS/2 warp V3 compare to other PC OSs like CDR Concurrnet386 or >> win3.1? > >I don't know anything about Concurrent386, but comparing OS/2 Warp with >win 3.1 is like comparing pigs with streetlights. > >Win3.1 is a graphical shell around DOS. To overcome DOS' memory >limitations is uses some more advanced techniques of the processor, such >as protected mode. However, win3.1 programs are 16-bit. Win3.1 itself is >16 bit. Win 3.1 only allows cooperative multitasking. That means that a >another program can only get control if the running program gives it up. >This is a very short summery of Win3.1 > >OS/2 2.0 and higher are 32-bit operating systems. However, compatibility >with older OS/2 applications was considered very important and therefore >parts of the kernel and all device drivers are mainly 16 bit. Only >recently some 32-bit device drivers were written. > >OS/2 has its own graphical subsystem - a very advanced one. It can run >DOS programs in 'virtual dos machines' or VDM. A special mode of the 386 >processor allows a task to act as if it where a real mode task. Anything >that task does can trap the processor and thus can be handled by >exception handlers. OS/2 is very strong is this area. > >OS/2 has its own file system with some special features like "extended >attributes". > >OS/2 has dynamic priorities for tasks, that makes it more responsive. >For example, a task that has focus in the GUI is slightly raised in >priority. Or when a background task was blocking for something it might >receive a slight priority boost when that something becomes available. > >OS/2's time critical priority is handled "soft realtime". I've used OS/2 >in the past for process control, dosing in particular. For such >applications realtime behaviour is very important as a lattency of 1 sec >or more is disasterous for the product being manufactered. > >I can go on and on, but if you want to know more let me know and I write >it down later on. > >Regards, >Bert Thank you. I'd been wondering why OS/2 had a following and that was it about OS/2 that made it worth following. It would seem that it's 32bit core and task management do make it distinct. Since I have the complete Warp V3 kits with bonus packs 1/2/3 I'll have to put it on one of the 486s and see. Any good sites for apps, tools and drivers? Allison From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 11:02:21 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:02:21 -0700 Subject: Logic Analyzer Recommendations In-Reply-To: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8962E5837@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> References: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8962E5837@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90510150902v2a610626ib079dc57c17ff3c3@mail.gmail.com> Is your budget $400 or $4000? If you really meant $4000 you can get some nice used equipment for that. I don't have experience with Tektronix, just HP / Agilent. If you don't need something portable I like 16700A mainframes. Not having a bult-in screen is a bonus in some ways in that if the built-in screen fails on newer portables it might not be cost effective to replace just the screen, plus with an external monitor you can run up to 1600x1200 vs 800x600 on some built-in screens. Also you should be able to find a 16700A without a built-in screen for a lot cheaper than a 16702A with a built-in screen. For $4000 you could get a 16700A fully loaded with something like (5x) 16715A modules (167MHz state / 333 MHz timing / 2MSa / 68 channel each card). I would much rather use a 16700A than a 16500B/C. One drawback of a 16700A compared to a 16500B/C is that the 16700A doesn't support the older and cheaper 16532A scope and 16520A pattern gen modules, only the newer and more expensive and harder to find 16533A/16534A scope and 16522A pattern gen modules. If your budget is $400 then you can't really go wrong with a 16500B with a 16550A or a 16555A or two. Yes they are older and big and heavy, but they are built pretty tough and there are enough of them out there that finding donor mainframes for parts if necessary should be easy. Just my $0.02 worth. (If you're interested in a 16700A/003 loaded with 16712A and 16715A modules and pods sets for less than $4000 send me mail offlist). -Glen From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 15 12:20:11 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 12:20:11 Subject: Old Microcomputer RAM Board w/ Tons of Socketted 4116 In-Reply-To: <200510150416.j9F4GHul043800@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510140924120942.14A25900@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051015122011.0ef77cbc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:06 PM 10/14/05 -0500, you wrote: > >eBay item # >8708356536 And the seller is (drum-roll!) William Donzelli! Do you think we can trust this guy? :-) Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 15 12:14:56 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 12:14:56 Subject: Friden EC-130 calculator schematics? In-Reply-To: <434FE448.25358.B2678A1@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051015121456.18ffb924@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Check with Alex Knight . He's into the Friden calculators. Joe At 05:00 PM 10/14/05 -0700, you wrote: >Hi > >This is a bit off-topic, since the device >isn't programmable, but... does anyone >have a set of schematics and/or a service >manual for the Friden EC-130 electronic >calulator? Google isn't coming up with >anything but others' requests for the same. > >Thanks >Brian > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Oct 15 11:33:04 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 12:33:04 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> <17232.9046.528348.920764@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200510141709530625.164CB185@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <17233.12096.418100.164412@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> On 10/14/2005 at 5:29 PM Paul Koning wrote: >> C is the obvious choice. In either case, you have to be careful >> that you don't wreck the portability by using non-portable I/O. Chuck> Is it? Given that we don't have 20-20 prescience, how about Chuck> 20-20 hindsight? Could you implement C on any computer with Chuck> sufficient memory? Chuck> How about an IBM 1401, 1620 or 7080? What would you do with Chuck> all of those nice operators such as <<, >>, &, |, and ^, given Chuck> that these were decimal machines? OTOH, FORTRAN's been Chuck> implemented on all of these. Good point. I believe C needs to be implemented on a binary machine, and anything other than two's complement is problematic (though, I think, possible). It also prefers byte addressable machines with power of 2 word lengths, though that too can be worked around. (There is a GCC implementation for the DEC-10 -- though not as far as I know for the CDC 6600.) paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Oct 15 11:33:58 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 12:33:58 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages References: <200510141709530625.164CB185@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <17233.12150.982415.477546@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> Is it? Given that we don't have 20-20 prescience, how about 20-20 >> hindsight? Could you implement C on any computer with sufficient >> memory? William> In 30 years, our processor-memory model might be a thing of William> the past. Why? It's 60-70 years old already and shows no signs at all of going away. paul From bert at brothom.nl Sat Oct 15 12:29:42 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 18:29:42 +0100 Subject: OS/2 vs Win3.1 In-Reply-To: <0IOE00HZVRDX2PH6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOE00HZVRDX2PH6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43513C86.3080006@brothom.nl> Allison wrote: > Thank you. I'd been wondering why OS/2 had a following and that was it > about OS/2 that made it worth following. It would seem that it's 32bit > core and task management do make it distinct. > > Since I have the complete Warp V3 kits with bonus packs 1/2/3 I'll have > to put it on one of the 486s and see. > > Any good sites for apps, tools and drivers? Just some that pop up: http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/ http://www.edm2.com http://www.netlabs.org/ Bert From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 15 11:40:57 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Someone got their IBM 029 working Message-ID: Cards punched to your specifications ;) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8709335588 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Oct 15 11:50:54 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 12:50:54 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> <434FFE8A.50607@srv.net> <038601c5d0f3$d4443f80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <435020CD.3070208@autonoma.edu.co> <4350C5A8.30001@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <17233.13166.949310.212378@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Gordon" == Gordon JC Pearce writes: Gordon> Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez wrote: >> by the numerical scientific computing community. I even know why, >> but I don't want to star a language war. >> >> Carlos. Gordon> Aw go on, tell us... I for one would love to know why, if Gordon> only to see if it's worth brushing up my rather rusty FORTRAN Gordon> "skills". It's one of very few languages (perhaps the only one, unless you count shiny new C++ standards) in which complex numbers are a first class data type. A lot of scientific computation involves complex numbers (Fourier transform, electromagnetic field simulation, etc.), and being able to write plain expressions instead of a tangle of function calls is a big help. paul From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 15 11:55:52 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:55:52 -0700 Subject: Someone got their IBM 029 working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510150955520438.19E5AD82@10.0.0.252> On 10/15/2005 at 9:40 AM Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Cards punched to your specifications ;) > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8709335588 $10 starting bid with $20 buy-it-now seems a little expensive. OTOH, if it was one of those old Univac cards with the round holes, it might be worth a second thought. Anyone have one of those portable manual punches? Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 15 11:55:04 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 17:55:04 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510150416.j9F4GHuj043800@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510150416.j9F4GHuj043800@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <43513468.7000606@yahoo.co.uk> Gil Carrick wrote: > ... > >>>What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be >> >>independent of >> >>>a particular software vendor, so the likes of Visual BASIC >> >>isn't an option. > > ... > >>Native-compiled Java. > > > Ruled out. > > Gil I missed the OP doing that - what was the reason? Pretty much any language is going to be natively compiled in this scenario surely? Java's one of the few where there's the option to run interpreted code (which might be useful in this situation) cheers Jules From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Oct 15 12:24:14 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 12:24:14 -0500 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20051015122414.62a9f5f0.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 16:14:55 +0100 Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: > >>Why would you buy audio tubes, or valves as we call them over here, > >from >eBay, when they're cheap enough in Maplins? > > > > > > Because a 12AX7 (ECC83) made by ICC and an identical 12AXY (ECC83) > > made by Telefunken makes ALL the difference. > > Mmm. To the gold-plated speaker cable brigade, perhaps. > > Gordon. No, such things really matter. There is a significant difference in the quality of tubes from different vendors. The 'gold plated speaker cable' analogy is badly overused these days. It _isn't_ simply a matter of buying whatever latest flashy gear has paid for the proper advertisements and endorsements. Just as there are better and worse brands of floppy diskettes. -- From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 15 12:19:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510141845.LAA16894@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process that > > >will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years. No direct control of > > >the process itself is entailed (i.e., you don't need the program to > > >operation valves or run motors), but you do need this program to compute > > >manufacturing parameters for each customer. I/O requirements are very > > >modest, mostly simple keyboard and display. > > >So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. > > > Forth. > > PILOT. LOGO. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 15 12:31:10 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051015085442.0bf4b858@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051015085442.0bf4b858@localhost> Message-ID: <20051015102749.S34086@shell.lmi.net> APL It appears to be a subset of Egyption hieroglyphics, and is obscure enough that there will be few attempts to program in it by people ungamiliar with the language. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Oct 15 12:26:24 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 18:26:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: Gordon JC Pearce "Re: OT: Language for the ages" (Oct 15, 11:03) References: <4350D3E8.5000209@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <10510151826.ZM7576@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 15 2005, 11:03, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > outputs of the 11/44 PSU,. There's a 5V rail (120A or so) for the logic > > That's not a power supply, that's a MIG welder. Possibly. The PSU in my Origin 2000 is for spot welding, I think: 5V @ 85A, 12V @ 22A, and 3.45V @ 375A. There's one in each module. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 15 12:33:54 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:33:54 -0600 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: > >>> Why would you buy audio tubes, or valves as we call them over here, >>> from eBay, when they're cheap enough in Maplins? >> >> >> >> Because a 12AX7 (ECC83) made by ICC and an identical 12AXY (ECC83) >> made by >> Telefunken makes ALL the difference. > > > Mmm. To the gold-plated speaker cable brigade, perhaps. But I think the reason the cable makes a difference is you got all the feed back in a transistor amp ( less in a valve ) and any noise on the speaker cables like ac hum? and other noise will get fed back to the amp . > > Gordon. > > . > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 15 12:36:33 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:36:33 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <43513468.7000606@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200510150416.j9F4GHuj043800@keith.ezwind.net> <43513468.7000606@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200510151036330956.1A0AEE9F@10.0.0.252> On 10/15/2005 at 5:55 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >I missed the OP doing that - what was the reason? Pretty much any >language is going to be natively compiled in this scenario surely? >Java's one of the few where there's the option to run interpreted code >(which might be useful in this situation) A slightly OT subthread. Back when I was just out of school, I was assigned to a COBOL translator project with a fellow who was part of the IBM COMTRAN project and who had written COBOL compilers to run on some of the strangest hardware you could imagine (e.g., a CDC 6600 PPU with lots and lots of overlays). (He left IBM when they assigned him to the PL/I project). He claimed ignorance of the host architecture of any of the systems he'd worked on (though, I suspect he was pulling my leg). His approach was quite unconventional for that day. Basically, he defined two machines--a compile machine and an execution machine. The compile machine would typically have an instruction set that handled things like tokens and numbers and output things like execute machine instructions. A typical instruction might be: IQTF TCOMMA,sub1,label2 meaning examine the next input token; if it's a comma, call sub1, otherwise jump to label2. He'd then have some junior programmer (me, for instance) write an interpreter for the instruction set, as well as the macro definitions that encoded his pseudo instructions. The execution machine was done similarly, but obviously with a different instruction set. This enabled him to get a very compact compiler and run-time up and running very quickly, since he'd already done much of the work for other projects he'd worked on. Eventually, when everything was shaken out, we'd exchange the interpreter for inline macro definitions on the compiler end and had the execution code generator spit out real assembly code. I subsequently used this approach for a couple of microcomputer BASIC compilers with great success. I believe that Ryan-McFarland did something akin to this also for their products, so it wasn't a carefully-held secret. As for my compiler guy, one interesting aspect of his life was that he lived much of the time with a band of gypsies in the Santa Cruz mountains and came down to the valley when he ran out of money... Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 15 12:36:57 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:36:57 -0600 Subject: Old Microcomputer RAM Board w/ Tons of Socketted 4116 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051015122011.0ef77cbc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200510140924120942.14A25900@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20051015122011.0ef77cbc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43513E39.1090302@jetnet.ab.ca> Joe R. wrote: >At 11:06 PM 10/14/05 -0500, you wrote: > > >> >>eBay item # >>8708356536 >> >> > > And the seller is (drum-roll!) William Donzelli! Do you think we can >trust this guy? :-) > > > Oh I trust him ... I don't trust ebay and all the scams with harvested emails. > Joe > >. > > > From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 15 12:39:51 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510151036330956.1A0AEE9F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > His approach was quite unconventional for that day. Basically, he defined > two machines--a compile machine and an execution machine. Sounds vaguely AS/400ish. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 15 12:40:30 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:40:30 -0600 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43513F0E.1060201@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >>Why would you buy audio tubes, or valves as we call them over here, from >>eBay, when they're cheap enough in Maplins? >> >> > >Because a 12AX7 (ECC83) made by ICC and an identical 12AXY (ECC83) made by >Telefunken makes ALL the difference. > > > Well this is a good read on why tubes may sound different. http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/FindingCG.html >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Oct 15 12:41:09 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:41:09 -0700 Subject: Logic Analyzer Recommendations In-Reply-To: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8962E5837@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> References: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8962E5837@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> Message-ID: <200510151041.09635.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 14 October 2005 11:00, Pat Fitzpatrick wrote: > Hi All, > > My current logic analyzers (an HP 64000 system and a Dolch LAM4850) have > been forced into early retirement and I'm looking for a replacement. --snip-- > Anyhow, I'm looking for recommendations. Something that will give a few > years of service, and cost less than $4000 (or thereabouts). I have to keep > these poor old computers running somehow -- plus a few new developments > from time to time. > > Advice would be appreciated, I have several login analyzers (Dolch, Kontron, Philips) - and the one I like the most is my Philips PM 3585/90. It is lightweight and easy to use. It has 96 Dual-analysis channels with 200 MHz timing and 50 MHz state. It supports TTL, ECL or variable (-3V to +12V in steps of 100mv). Probe impedance is 200K/7pf. It has a 9" monochrome screen with 4 grey levels. It uses a standard 3.5 diskette to save data, analysis setups, etc. The OS software and manuals for it are often included in the sale price. My only gripe is that it only has 2K deep acquisition memory (Although that seems to be sufficient for debugging vintage systems). eBay price range $150-$400 depending on number of probes, condition, etc. Cheers, Lyle > > Pat -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 15 12:48:55 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <17233.12150.982415.477546@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > Why? It's 60-70 years old already and shows no signs at all of going > away. I could probably say the same "30 year" thing about analog computers in 1960. By 1990, the analog computer market was effectively dead. Be careful about the 60-70 year claim - remember that during the first 40 years, developement was slow, but all the low hanging fruits were picked. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 12:49:42 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:49:42 -0400 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <20051015082233.69759200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20051015082233.69759200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <43514136.5080304@gmail.com> Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >>There were certauinly : >> >>Transputer (both all-on-one cards (host adapater + transputer + RAM) and >>TRAM motherboards) >>[...] > > > IBM had even produced a 370 as a set of adapter cards for the > original PC. The package was called PC/370. There's also the P/390 series. One was Microchannel and two were PCI. And I seem to recall some number-crunching board with an i860 on it or something. Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 15 12:54:14 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 18:54:14 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43514246.1000602@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: >>Why? It's 60-70 years old already and shows no signs at all of going >>away. > > > I could probably say the same "30 year" thing about analog computers in > 1960. By 1990, the analog computer market was effectively dead. > > Be careful about the 60-70 year claim - remember that during the first 40 > years, developement was slow, but all the low hanging fruits were picked. Hmm, interesting. In what ways other than the processor-memory model could things have evolved in the early years? It'd be intersting to speculate where computing might be today if it had evolved down some totally different path very early on... cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 15 13:03:29 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4350C257.8080601@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <4350C257.8080601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051015103231.Q34086@shell.lmi.net> > >>C > >Er, how big is an int? a pointer? although often sizes such as 16 bits or 32 bits, an int is whatever sized group of bytes is most "comfortable and convenient" for the processor to handle. However, the defined size for an int must not be smaller than the defined size for a short int, nor larger than the defined size of a long int. Negative numbers are often represented in 2s complement notation, but that is purely implementation dependent, and CAN be done in other ways. A pointer is whatever size, and configuration, is needed to refer to a specific memory location. It can even be used to refer to a 16 bit offset within a segment, or even as a 32 bit quantity that is actually a structure of two 16 bit quantities (far * v segment:offset) It has sometimes been recommended, in order to further current forms of abuse, that the sizes of various variable types should not be relatively prime. FORTRAN (The Devils' DP Dictionary.) FORTRAN n [Acronym for Formula Translation system.] One of the earliest languages of any real height, level-wise, developed out of Speedcoding by Backus and Ziller for the IBM/704 in the mid-1950s in order to boost the sales of 80-column cards to engineers. In spite of regular improvements (including a recent option called STRUCTURE), it remains popular among engineers but despised elsewhere. Many rivals, with the benefit of hindsight, have crossed swords with the old workhorse! Yet FORTRAN gallops on, warts and all, more transportable than syphilis, fired by a bottomless pit of working subprograms. Lacking the compact power of APL, the intellectually satisfying elegance of ALGOL 68, the didactic incision of pascal, and the spurned universality of PL/1, FORTRAN survives, nay flourishes, thanks to superior investmental inertia. http://www.sysprog.net/quotcob.html http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edsger_Dijkstra From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 15 13:25:16 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:25:16 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages Message-ID: <0IOE005BYZ4RQJ00@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT: Language for the ages > From: Paul Koning > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 12:33:58 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: > > >> Is it? Given that we don't have 20-20 prescience, how about 20-20 > >> hindsight? Could you implement C on any computer with sufficient > >> memory? > > William> In 30 years, our processor-memory model might be a thing of > William> the past. > >Why? It's 60-70 years old already and shows no signs at all of going >away. > > paul I've exprimented with a rather simple microprogam state machine where there is no ALU or other logic. Just one huge eprom with all the possible results of two factors. The machine reduced to a fetch instruction, lookup results (the factors are addresses to the eprom), return result. At a 50,000ft view its a standard Von looking thing, close in there is none of the usual hardware. So I would be suggesting that which externally conventional in programming the implmentation could really be off the current map. Allison From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 13:27:12 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:27:12 -0400 Subject: OS/2 vs Win3.1 In-Reply-To: <0IOE00HZVRDX2PH6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOE00HZVRDX2PH6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43514A00.6030908@gmail.com> Allison wrote: > Any good sites for apps, tools and drivers? http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/ Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 13:30:05 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:30:05 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43514AAD.30706@gmail.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >>>>Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process that >>>>will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years. No direct control of >>>>the process itself is entailed (i.e., you don't need the program to >>>>operation valves or run motors), but you do need this program to compute >>>>manufacturing parameters for each customer. I/O requirements are very >>>>modest, mostly simple keyboard and display. >>>>So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. >> >>>Forth. >> >>PILOT. > LOGO. Funge-98. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Oct 15 13:34:47 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:34:47 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: <200510131929140903.11A5EB43@10.0.0.252> References: <00ef01c5d050$aa0cbdd0$0500fea9@game> <20051013202424.76cb0fc9.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200510131929140903.11A5EB43@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43514BC7.7080804@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Never respond to a "second-chance" solicitation. You know, the "the winner > of my auction didn't pay me or sent the item back, so rather than re-list > it, I'm offering it to you as one of the other bidders for the winning bid" > ploy. Those are almost always scams. I beg to differ. I've bought several items on second-chance offers, with no problems. Granted they were sellers with whom I had history, or I corresponded with them, much as you suggested, before taking the offer. OTOH, I've also turned down many more second-chances, because they were obviously scams, or more often IME, the auction itself was a scam to generate second-chance bids. If you have many of a moderately rare item, listing them simultaneously drives the price into the ground. Unless it's *really* rare, sequential listings can do the same for the last few. If you list only one, then make SC offers to the top few losers, then wait awhile before listing again, you can both sell them all reasonably quickly and keep the value up. There's a seller who lists one ATX PSU adapter for the Amiga 4000 about every 3-4 months. The bidding always gets stupid, and I always get a second-chance offer for as many as I want, at my max bid. As much as I could use one, it pissis me off too much to go there. Doc From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 15 14:07:43 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 15:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <43514246.1000602@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > Hmm, interesting. In what ways other than the processor-memory model > could things have evolved in the early years? It'd be intersting to > speculate where computing might be today if it had evolved down some > totally different path very early on... How about the model with memory and processor being one? The "closest" production machines like this were probably the CM-1 and CM-2. Maybe some neural network machines in the labs will finally hit the point when they get useful. Or to really get wild, perhaps quantum machines or those that work on probablities? Processor-memory and analog were the easiest (by far) to implement years ago, so that is why they were there, and the above weird technologies were not. 30 years from now, some of those weird technologies may be quite normal. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 15 14:12:23 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 12:12:23 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051015102749.S34086@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051015085442.0bf4b858@localhost> <20051015102749.S34086@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510151212230501.1A62A98E@10.0.0.252> On 10/15/2005 at 10:31 AM Fred Cisin wrote: >APL > >It appears to be a subset of Egyption hieroglyphics, >and is obscure enough that there will be few attempts >to program in it by people ungamiliar with the language. Is there any other language that suffers as much from the "one liner" syndrome--that is, the perverse pride of being able to do something obscure with a single unreadable line of code? LISP maybe? --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 15 14:21:17 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:21:17 -0600 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435156AD.7040906@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >Processor-memory and analog were the easiest (by far) to implement years >ago, so that is why they were there, and the above weird technologies were >not. 30 years from now, some of those weird technologies may be quite >normal. > > > It is the memory wall that is the factor and now on chip delays, bring us back to about the tube era of computer design for delay and logic functions. The week point of almost all computer designs -- Random access memory is random access not serial as it is with all the pipelineing going on. >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > >. > > > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Oct 15 14:23:39 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 15:23:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Someone got their IBM 029 working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Cards punched to your specifications ;) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8709335588 I've always wanted one of those... Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Oct 15 14:31:09 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:31:09 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 15 Oct 2005 12:12:23 PDT." <200510151212230501.1A62A98E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510151931.UAA12646@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Chuck Guzis said: > On 10/15/2005 at 10:31 AM Fred Cisin wrote: > > >APL > > > >It appears to be a subset of Egyption hieroglyphics, > >and is obscure enough that there will be few attempts > >to program in it by people ungamiliar with the language. > > Is there any other language that suffers as much from the "one liner" > syndrome--that is, the perverse pride of being able to do something obscure > with a single unreadable line of code? > > LISP maybe? It used to be a popular pastime with FORTHers. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 15 15:24:54 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510151212230501.1A62A98E@10.0.0.252> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051015085442.0bf4b858@localhost> <20051015102749.S34086@shell.lmi.net> <200510151212230501.1A62A98E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051015132315.X34086@shell.lmi.net> > >APL > >It appears to be a subset of Egyption hieroglyphics, > >and is obscure enough that there will be few attempts > >to program in it by people ungamiliar with the language. On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Is there any other language that suffers as much from the "one liner" > syndrome--that is, the perverse pride of being able to do something obscure > with a single unreadable line of code? > LISP maybe? C maybe. while(*t++=*s++); But APL is terse. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 15 15:33:50 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:33:50 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051015132315.X34086@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051015085442.0bf4b858@localhost> <20051015102749.S34086@shell.lmi.net> <200510151212230501.1A62A98E@10.0.0.252> <20051015132315.X34086@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510151333500918.1AAD3CD6@10.0.0.252> On 10/15/2005 at 1:24 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >> >APL >> >It appears to be a subset of Egyption hieroglyphics, >> >and is obscure enough that there will be few attempts >> >to program in it by people ungamiliar with the language. > >On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, I wrote: >> Is there any other language that suffers as much from the "one liner" >> syndrome--that is, the perverse pride of being able to do something >obscure >> with a single unreadable line of code? >> LISP maybe? > >C maybe. >while(*t++=*s++); Yeah, but what can compare with this APL sample: http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/O/one-liner-wars.html The Perl example seems verbose by comparison. As a solution to the original topic, has anyone yet suggested INTERCAL? http://www.catb.org/~esr/intercal/ Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 15 16:54:57 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 17:54:57 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" Message-ID: <0IOF008UG8U6LS43@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" > From: woodelf > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:33:54 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> William Donzelli wrote: >> >>>> Why would you buy audio tubes, or valves as we call them over here, >>>> from eBay, when they're cheap enough in Maplins? >>> >>> >>> >>> Because a 12AX7 (ECC83) made by ICC and an identical 12AXY (ECC83) >>> made by >>> Telefunken makes ALL the difference. >> >> >> Mmm. To the gold-plated speaker cable brigade, perhaps. > >But I think the reason the cable makes a difference is you got all the feed >back in a transistor amp ( less in a valve ) and any noise on the speaker >cables like ac hum? and other noise will get fed back to the amp >.. > >> >> Gordon. Ugh, never mind. Allison From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 15 17:17:04 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 17:17:04 -0500 Subject: HP 262X terminal bits available (junk) Message-ID: <000501c5d1d6$2e90df60$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I got around to taking a mess of 262X terminals in poor condition and mixing/matching parts to get two clean good working units. This means I have a lot of bits & pieces of junk left over. I already kept some bits for spare parts, so the rest of this is going to hit the trashcan. Note - amongst all these pieces, you could not make a good terminal just with these items - there's little incompatabilities and/or missing parts. I figured I'd offer the pieces in case someone had one of these with a broken bezel, missing set screw, etc. 2628A terminal parts: brown bezel/faceplate, main logic board w/2 94020A ports, very white top & bottom cover (no pedestal), power supply. 2821P terminal parts: printer unit, yellowed top & bottom cover, pedestal, brown bezel/faceplate, power supply. In addition to the above - two crt tubes that fit either unit, both have a fair amount of spottage under the glass The above is all going in to the trash today, which will be picked up thursday afternoon. So... let me know if you need any cosmetic bits asap! Next on the list... 264X parts may be made available... Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 15 18:49:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:49:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Friden EC-130 calculator schematics? In-Reply-To: <4350B815.71F0808E@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Oct 15, 5 01:04:37 am Message-ID: > No, don't have a schematic, but if anyone wants to lend me a physical > unit, I'll reverse engineer it. :) > (..seriously; it's one I have wanted to RE.) You're generous... I would expect to be _given_ (as in, to keep afterwards) the machine if I was going to spend a few weeks/months producing schematics Amd that is a realistic estimate of the time IMHO. Reverse engineering is a lot easier if you have one or more large chips (processor, etc) that can eseentially only be used in one way. If you find, say, a 8250, it's a very good bet it's going to be part of a serial port, that there'll be an 8 bit data bus going into it, etc. If you just have a mass of 74xx gates and flip-flops, it could be almost anything. And a board of discretes is even worse, it might not even be digital. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 15 18:45:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:45:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510142140520245.1744C494@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 14, 5 09:40:52 pm Message-ID: > > I start grinding my teeth when I read stuff like this: > > PSHR R2 ; Push R2 onto the stack > MVII 10,R1 ; Move 10 to R1 > CLRR R2 ; Clear R2 > OK1 JSR R5,FOOP ; Call FOOP > DECR R1 ; Decrement R1 > BNZE OK1 ; Branch to OK1 if not zero > > A comment on every line that describes exactly what's happening without any > sort "big picture". Absolutely meaningless. I totally agree. IMHO, it's a lot better to firstly put a 'header' on each routine giving the purpose and the entry/exist variables (these can refer to other comemnts in the program or related programs -- e.g. if you're searching a disk directory, there's no point in giving the directory entry format every time it's used) and secondly to give meaningful comments to instructions. Rather than ADD R0,#8 ; Add 8 to R0 it's more use to have ADD R0,#8 ; Point to next 8-word record I feel the same way about scheamtics. Much of the time spent _usefully_ producsing schematics (particularly when reverse-engineering) concerns giving sensible names to things. There are 3 things that need to be added to the schematic 1) an overall title. Often (if not always) the division of a machine into schematic sections is governed by the physical division of the components amongst PCBs/modules/whatever, and it's often not sane to give an totally precise title to each board (So the HP 09810-66512 is not going to get titled 'CPU clock, microcode repeat and half the I/O logic'). But at least each board can be given a somewhat sensible name 2) Signals need to be given understnadable names (this is akin to using sensible variable names when programming). Some manufacturers diagrams are particularly poor on this and have signals 'A', 'B', 'C', etc. I prefer names like DDIR (Data Direction), MClk (Master Clock), and so on 3) Sections of the schematic should be titlted. Things like 'Microcode sequncer' 'Master Clock' 'Memory address decoder' and so on. Most commercial diagrams are very bad about this, but IMHO it really helps when findiny your way round a machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 15 18:52:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:52:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4350D3E8.5000209@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Oct 15, 5 11:03:20 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > outputs of the 11/44 PSU,. There's a 5V rail (120A or so) for the logic > > That's not a power supply, that's a MIG welder. Oh come on, it's only 600W... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 15 18:25:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:25:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 Models I and III available near NE Ohio In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 15, 5 11:50:59 am Message-ID: > > The CPU board stabds vertically at the back, possibnly covered withe a > > metal shield. Remove that, and you're looking at the component side of > > the PCB. The model 3 is mostly TTL, with some RAM (4116 DRAMs, 2114 SRAMs > > for the video), ROMs, and a Z80. > > Right... I did find GIF schematics and pored over them last night. I > remembered correctly that there's not anything truely bizarre going on > in there - worst case, I can trace faults down to individual chips, At power-on, the video side should be running (there's no CRT controller that has to be set up by the CPU), so you probably should have some garbage on the screen, unless by chance all your video memory locations have initialised to spaces :-). It should be quite easy (given a logic probe, 'scope, or logic analyser) to check that you're getting a system clock, that the video counter chain is running, that you're getting addresses to the video memory, that you're getting date out of the memory and into the character generator ROM, that the character rows are going from the character generator to the video chift register, that the shift register is being loaded and finally that there's a bit stream coming out of it. IIRC, there's a connector on the CPU board with 3 screened cables going to it that is part of the video harness. The signals on those cables are Hsync, VSync, and video. You should be able to see if there's anything coming out of the CPU board. Of course the problem could be in the monitor section. It's very conventional, and schematics exist. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 15 18:33:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:33:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510150416.j9F4GHui043800@keith.ezwind.net> from "Gil Carrick" at Oct 14, 5 11:06:24 pm Message-ID: > I have a nephew who got his PhD in Astrophysics a few years back. He says > FORTRAN is about all they use because they have vast libraries of FORTRAN > code that they can slap together to do big projects quickly. It has been > developed over quite a few years and is well debugged. I was told that my Ph.D. thesis in particle physics is almost unique because it doesn't contain (or make use of) one single line of Fortran. There's plenty of Occam, VAX Pascal, and even a custom-designed microcode, but no Fortran... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 15 19:04:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 01:04:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Friden EC-130 calculator schematics? In-Reply-To: <20051015145438.72FE997C30@pail.bensene.com> from "Rick Bensene" at Oct 15, 5 07:58:08 am Message-ID: > I've been looking for schematics for this machine since the early 1990's, > and > as yet have come up dry. They just don't seem to be out there. My > understanding > is that generally, service technicians in the field were trained to repair > the machines > on a module basis, e.g., replace this circuit board if it exhibits this > symptom. HP had much the same policy. AFAIK there is no HP desktop calculator service manual that contains schematics of the logic stuff. If you're lucky you get the PSU scheamtics. This includes the 9100, 98x0, 98x5 and even the 46/81 machines. For some odd reason, the HP80-series computer service manuals did include schematics, but the HP9000 ones didn't. Oh well... The HP serivce manuals (the ones I've seen) are mostly useless _BUT_ I still recomend reading them. The reason is occasionally you get some information 'in passing' which is very useful if read with a hackish eye > Service technicians didn't need schematics, because all they really needed > was > troubleshooting guide, a knowledge of general operating theory, good test > equipment, > and a kit full of every spare assembly needed. This made it unnecessary for I am not going to post my rant about board-swapping again. Suffice it to say that's not how I reparied any of my HPs. And it's not how I'd repair a Friden if I was lucky enough to have one. > them to repair things down to the component level, except in the case of the > power > supply, which may require replacement of individual components. Everything > else was modular. As a result, field techs likely didn't need schematics -- > and > that was a good thing, because field techs could be 'loose' in their care > of schematics, allowing copies to be made, leaving them behind, etc., which > will > generally not maliciously intended, could result in competitors getting > their hands > on the design, which, in those days as it is today, can be a big problem. Hmmm..... Having done battle -- and won -- with producing repair schematics for the HPs, I am not sure this is valid. Certainly for the HP machines there's a lot more needed than just a schematic for copying the machine (ROM contents, and there were custom chips in some of the later machines, for example). And it's not _that_ hard to produce a schematic given time. The lack of official schemaitcs might slow down copying efforts, but it wouldn't make much difference in the end (it's either going to be easily possible with or without the official schematics, or very difficult with or without the schematics, depending on the prsense of custom parts). To copy the machine, a simple netlist would be essentially all you need, along with a rough PCB layout (assuming you're not just going to copy the PCB foils as well). That would be next-to-useless for repair, you need an annotated, logically set out schematic. -tony From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Oct 15 20:06:55 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:06:55 -0500 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <43514136.5080304@gmail.com> References: <20051015082233.69759200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <43514136.5080304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4351A7AF.1000308@mdrconsult.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > And I seem to recall some number-crunching board with an i860 on it or > something. By Sky Computing, maybe? I have a Sun 670MP with a couple of coprocessors made by them. It's in storage and I don't have the inventory handy, but IIRC each VME board had an i960 controller and 4 i860 coprocessors (or maybe vice versa), each with 4MB of cache. It's effectively a huge FPU. I'm pretty sure that in looking it up I found references to the same sort of product for other platforms. Doc From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Oct 15 20:18:10 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:18:10 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510152018.10855.pat@computer-refuge.org> William Donzelli declared on Saturday 15 October 2005 02:07 pm: > > Hmm, interesting. In what ways other than the processor-memory model > > could things have evolved in the early years? It'd be intersting to > > speculate where computing might be today if it had evolved down some > > totally different path very early on... > > How about the model with memory and processor being one? The "closest" > production machines like this were probably the CM-1 and CM-2. Maybe > some neural network machines in the labs will finally hit the point > when they get useful. Or to really get wild, perhaps quantum machines > or those that work on probablities? > > Processor-memory and analog were the easiest (by far) to implement > years ago, so that is why they were there, and the above weird > technologies were not. 30 years from now, some of those weird > technologies may be quite normal. A couple of years ago, Cray was working on a proposal for a DARPA grant, one of the ideas they were playing with in the design of the machine included memory-local processor, sort of like NUMA, except the memory modules themselves had processors that you could send 'tasks' to, sort of a vector of processors (as opposed to a vector processor:). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spc at conman.org Sat Oct 15 20:19:01 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 21:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Oct 15, 2005 04:26:47 AM Message-ID: <20051016011902.9E8C073029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Vassilis Prevelakis once stated: > > Paul Koning wrote: > > C is the obvious choice. In either case, you have to be careful that > > you don't wreck the portability by using non-portable I/O. > > Er, how big is an int? a pointer? In ANSI C, a char is a least 8 bits, a short at least 16 bits and a long at least 32 bits, with an int not shorter than a short, nor longer than a long. A pointer is big enough to hold an address to any type. Yes, there is some fluidity to how big certain quantities are, but that has never been a problem for me (and I've written code that has successfully been compiled under 16-bit DOS to 64-bit DEC Alpha running Linux); I've never understood why so many programmers have such difficulty with the concept. -spc (Or to answer your question: big enough) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 21:17:23 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 15:17:23 +1300 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: References: <4350D3E8.5000209@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 10/16/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > outputs of the 11/44 PSU,. There's a 5V rail (120A or so) for the logic > > > > That's not a power supply, that's a MIG welder. > > Oh come on, it's only 600W... But it does need a large friendly warning sticker that says, "Do Not Lick!" -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Oct 15 21:59:04 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Oct 15, 5 10:19:26 am" Message-ID: <200510160259.TAA14746@floodgap.com> > > > >So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. > > > Forth. > > PILOT. > LOGO. Uncle. ;) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm still right. ------- From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sat Oct 15 22:47:23 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:47:23 -0500 Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator Message-ID: ... like the subject line says. Now that my 8/A is up and running it's time to hook up the RL02. I do have the interface board plugged into the Omnibus, the correct boot ROMs on the option board, and the RL02 has the Unit "0" plug but no cable or terminator. I could make my own if someone can tell me where to get the connectors that fit the drive end. Also, I think someone cannibalized the disk brush out of mine :( There is a big open area towards the right rear of the disk compartment and a pin with a snapring groove protruding downwards, but nothing in the empty hole there except two silver-colored tubes down below (air ducts?)... seemed pretty clean inside, as it should. So I left the heads parked (blocked by the transport plate), inserted the disk pack and ran the blower for a while anyway. Fault light was on, load light was not. I didn't hook it up to the interface board (obviously :) but not being well-acquainted with these drives I don't know if it *has* to be connected before the fault light goes off, or the heads free to load, or both... I do have a copy of the "RL01/02 Disk Subsystem User's Manual" but the service manual and parts list looks essential at this point. Hope it's on bitsavers ;) Thanks for any help. -Charles From news at computercollector.com Sat Oct 15 22:57:15 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 23:57:15 -0400 Subject: Utterly OT: mobile FTP to Yahoo web hosting Message-ID: <000001c5d205$b2f383a0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Since this is so off-topic, please send replies to me only, NOT to the whole list. The problem: I've got a program called VFS-FTP on my Treo 650 (PalmOS 5.x) smartphone. I know it works because I connected to various FTP servers and successfully download and uploaded files. When I try connecting to my web hoster (Yahoo Small Business), I get an error message saying "server did not respond in time" -- this is before the login stage, I think. As you can guess, Yahoo's tech support was a waste of my time. All they said is "our server works" and that they have no higher-tier support for FTP. Bastards. I made sure the FTP client is in "passive" mode and I set the time-out for a very high amount, 120 seconds, although I don't think that is part of the problem. Any suggestions please? Or can anyone suggest a more powerful FTP client for PalmOS? (There aren't any additional config options to pick in this one.) I really need to get mobile FTP working; this isn't just an experiment. Thanks in advance, Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Oct 15 22:59:43 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:59:43 -0500 Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510152259.44054.pat@computer-refuge.org> Charles declared on Saturday 15 October 2005 10:47 pm: > ... like the subject line says. > > Now that my 8/A is up and running it's time to hook up the RL02. I > do have the interface board plugged into the Omnibus, the correct > boot ROMs on the option board, and the RL02 has the Unit "0" plug > but no cable or terminator. I could make my own if someone can > tell me where to get the connectors that fit the drive end. > > Also, I think someone cannibalized the disk brush out of mine :( RL02's never had brushes. Early RL01s came with brushes, but I think a later ECO removed them, as they tended to do more harm than good to the disk pack. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 15 23:20:54 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 05:20:54 +0100 Subject: Friden EC-130 calculator schematics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4351D526.7060805@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>No, don't have a schematic, but if anyone wants to lend me a physical >>unit, I'll reverse engineer it. :) >>(..seriously; it's one I have wanted to RE.) > > > You're generous... I would expect to be _given_ (as in, to keep > afterwards) the machine if I was going to spend a few weeks/months > producing schematics I don't believe you :-) Seriously, if the machine in question's something not *that* common, I'm sure most of us would like to play around with a cool bit of hardware for a few months and figure out how it works and then give it back, rather than never having the chance to play with it at all. Of course getting to keep it at the end is a nice bonus (space permitting :) It's nice to keep old hardware in circulation I think; none of us have infinite storage space after all! cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 15 23:24:13 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 05:24:13 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4351D5ED.7010707@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: >>Hmm, interesting. In what ways other than the processor-memory model >>could things have evolved in the early years? It'd be intersting to >>speculate where computing might be today if it had evolved down some >>totally different path very early on... > > > How about the model with memory and processor being one? The "closest" > production machines like this were probably the CM-1 and CM-2. I'm probably wrong, but aren't they just lots of interconnected processor-memory machines though? OK, the big picture looks a bit different from a typical machine, but I'd assumed that on a smaller scale internally they weren't anything particularly ground-breaking. Very little in the way of CM resources out there on the 'net though so I know virtually nothing of the hardware other than it looks darn cool ;) cheers Jules From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 15 23:33:26 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:33:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4351D5ED.7010707@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > I'm probably wrong, but aren't they just lots of interconnected > processor-memory machines though? Yes, that is true, but the processors are so incredibly weak (compared to just about every other MP system), so it sort of "looks" like a chunk of memory that knows how to do stuff. It is a poor analogy, but it is the best I have. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 01:32:34 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 02:32:34 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510151333500918.1AAD3CD6@10.0.0.252> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051015085442.0bf4b858@localhost> <20051015102749.S34086@shell.lmi.net> <200510151212230501.1A62A98E@10.0.0.252> <20051015132315.X34086@shell.lmi.net> <200510151333500918.1AAD3CD6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4351F402.1080602@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > As a solution to the original topic, has anyone yet suggested INTERCAL? > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/intercal/ No, but I suggested Funge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befunge Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 01:35:29 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 02:35:29 -0400 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <4351A7AF.1000308@mdrconsult.com> References: <20051015082233.69759200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <43514136.5080304@gmail.com> <4351A7AF.1000308@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4351F4B1.9080601@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> And I seem to recall some number-crunching board with an i860 on it or >> something. > > > By Sky Computing, maybe? I have a Sun 670MP with a couple of > coprocessors made by them. It's in storage and I don't have the > inventory handy, but IIRC each VME board had an i960 controller and 4 > i860 coprocessors (or maybe vice versa), each with 4MB of cache. It's > effectively a huge FPU. > > I'm pretty sure that in looking it up I found references to the same > sort of product for other platforms. Sounds familiar. That might have been it. Peace... Sridhar From trag at io.com Sat Oct 15 02:24:46 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 02:24:46 -0500 Subject: MPX-16 census In-Reply-To: <200510141609.j9EG9ERG055426@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510141609.j9EG9ERG055426@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:25:03 +0000 >From: Gordon JC Pearce >Subject: Re: MPX-16 census >der Mouse wrote: >>>I've never heard of anybody making more than double-sided PCBs at >>>home (I would love to be proved wrong!). >> >> >> I can't *prove* you wrong. But I've spoken with someone who claimed to >> have done it, and when I started asking questions, talked a good enough >> line that I found it believable. As she described it, you need >> epoxy/fibreglass mix, which you cast a thin sheet of. You then sand it >> smooth, copper-plate it, and etch. Slap on another coat of epoxy and >> fibreglass, let it cure, sand it smooth, copper-plate, and etch. >> Lather, rinse, repeat. >> >> The hard part is of course quality control (and plated-through vias, >> which you can get somewhere with by drilling holes before doing the >> last copper-plating). And registration of the layers. But with >> patience and attention to detail...after all, anyone doing this is >> considering time to be worth a great deal less than money, or the job >> would simply be shipped off to a commercial pcb fab house. :) > >It's the sort of thing I can see our Mr Duell doing though. This is a topic that interests me. The most useful sounding site I've found so far is this one IIRC, they recommend drilling your boards before etching so that you can use the hole locations to help with your layer registration. They also have an interesting ink and electroplating system to create plated-through vias. (As an aside, I found another site one time where a fellow had replaced the pen in a plotter with a drill and was using it to drill boards with an Apple II(?) driving the thing. It would be an interesting project if one could make it interpret Excellon drill files.) However, the information on greater than 2 layer boards is thin. They seem to imply that you can etch seperate thinner boards and then laminate them together, but there's no detail on what kind of board would work for this. There's an obscure reference to not fully cured fiberglass or some such. The implication is that, e.g. one could make a total .062" thick board with four layers out of three boards laminated together--perhaps three .020" boards. The two outer boards would be double sided circuit boards and the center would be a separator with plated-through vias and "doughnuts" at the plated-through holes to make contact from one board to the next. I'm curious about what one would need in terms of board or additives to laminate multi-layer boards together. A standard fully cured board isn't going to stick, I don't think. Building multi-layer boards out of raw fiberglass/epoxy mix and copper plating it oneself does not sound like a viable home project. At least, not for me. Jeff Walther From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 15 15:23:09 2005 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:23:09 +0000 Subject: HP 9133XV jumper query Message-ID: Hi, J?rgen Keller recently cracked how to access his 9133XV combined hard drive and floppy drive unit from his HP-85 - see full article here: http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cgi?read=562 I would like to check with other 9133XV owners if their drives also had the same A/B/C jumper, I suspect this was only present on certain revisions of the drive. If it seems to be on all revisions this is excellent news as these drives often crop up on the second hand market. Regards, John >From: J?rgen Keller To: John S >Subject: Re: Extended Mass Storage ROM >Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:16:55 +0200 > >Hi John, >I'm very happy that I have a working connection to my PC. It makes much >more fun if you can feed your HP-85 with some nice programs... > >If have no explanation why I could not initialize the drive with my >HP-85. Perhaps, the 86 Mass Storage ROM is more advanced. Anyway, the >main point for me is that it works now. Hopefully it helps others to get >their drives working. John wrote: >>I suspect that not all 9133XVs have this jumper. Did you want to post a >>message on classiccmp cctalk, I know several people there have this drive. > >I'm currently not subscribed to cctalk. May I ask you to post the >information? Perhaps it sheds some light on the jumper question. > >Have a nice weekend, >Juergen _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN Search Toolbar now includes Desktop search! http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/ From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Sat Oct 15 08:44:50 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:44:50 -0400 Subject: Sone say tubes, some say valves .... Was: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <4350D4CC.2030604@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200510151354.j9FDsUxj052019@keith.ezwind.net> When Franking Clerks go Postal or Some say tubes and some say valves... On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:07:08 +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >William Donzelli wrote: >> Bingo! >> >> I get the most problems from the guys that buy audio tubes. >Why would you buy audio tubes, or valves as we call them over here, from >eBay, when they're cheap enough in Maplins? >Gordon. Because Maplins is much closer to Stonehenge than the great majority of the people purchasing tubes from William on ebay (like me). >From my prospective it is a big pond to cross, to a land where a pound is closer to two bucks than a dollar. Not to mention the franking costs to post anything of weight :) Surface post from the Jolly ole land of Merlin, back here to Central Ohio is running between 40 and 45 days by slow boat. I can have a full container shipped in about the same time, most likely end up on the same boat. I had a seller just this spring post a drawing tube containing a rare plate of the first aerial photo ever taken of Stonehenge sent by ship ! I took about 2 months to get here @%$#^....... For about a fiver (or about half that, if your think Sterling) one can have a Kilo of near instant gratification delivered to the door in about two days with electronic tracking. On a side note I received a small package (about 65 grams) from the Netherlands yesterday, It is inspiration for an art project I am working on regarding some core values. I took 7 days, an eternity when you are waiting for a good example of hard core from the Netherlands :) The postmark was for 1,74 I am assuming euros. I just checked it would be $2.40 to Airmail it back, On a personal Note: Thanks Henk, it looks great. I got some interesting closeups at 60x and 200x that may work. I will post later when I get a chance to put them in an album. Number one Son is doing the marriage thing this weekend so I have been slow getting back to you ... Got to run ... SheWhoMustBeObayed has other plans for me :) Later Bob From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Sat Oct 15 12:13:33 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:13:33 -0400 Subject: Someone got their IBM 029 working In-Reply-To: <200510150955520438.19E5AD82@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510151723.j9FHNDfZ057930@keith.ezwind.net> I will be happy to reink a printer ribbon and punch/print some 96 column cards if there is any demand for them at half that price :) Bob On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:55:52 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 10/15/2005 at 9:40 AM Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>Cards punched to your specifications ;) >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8709335588 >$10 starting bid with $20 buy-it-now seems a little expensive. OTOH, if it >was one of those old Univac cards with the round holes, it might be worth a >second thought. >Anyone have one of those portable manual punches? >Cheers, >Chuck From carlos at jimulco.autonoma.edu.co Sat Oct 15 14:28:04 2005 From: carlos at jimulco.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 15:28:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages Message-ID: Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > >> by the numerical scientific computing community. I even know >> why, but I don't want to star a language war. > > Aw go on, tell us... I for one would love to know why, if only to see > if it's worth brushing up my rather rusty FORTRAN "skills". Ok, you asked for it... 1) There is an inertia factor, of course, with all those superb routine libraries in FORTRAN (LAPACK, SCALAPACK and all that stuff at the legendary netlib) 2) FORTRAN has been optimized for many decades to do just one kind of task: computations involving arrays of floats, with a very specific fetch/multiply/add to accumulator/increment pointers sequence. This is a very regular task and the optimizations in FORTRAN are directed to do this very efficiently. C compiler optimizers must address many other possibilities (C is a much more "general purpose" language). Thus, like it or not, for numeric computations involving matrix/vector float operations, FORTRAN is usually slightly faster than C. Of course, if you program a fast Fourier transform in FORTRAN, it might actually be slower because some of the operations don't fit the structure described above: you have to negate bits in pointers to form the "butterflies" (the basic FFT block). Why, even the storage scheme in FORTRAN reflects numerics-specific thinking: 2D matrices are stored column-wise, an appropriate choice if you know that en numerics, matrix/vector multiplication is best thought of as a weighted sum of the columns of the matrix, with the weights being the elements of the vector. C, being designed by non-numerics people, stores numbers row-wise. If you program numerics in C, you must always store matrices transposed to get around this fact. So, short explanation: FORTRAN is faster for array numerics, which forms the core of scientific numeric computing, simply because that's what the optimizer expects to find. C, having a more general purpose, considers many other possibilities and is less "tuned" to the needs of numerics. Carlos. Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez email: carlos_murillo at ieee.org Dean of Engineering, Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia ---- "Western civilization... thought like the greek, organized itself like the romans and believed in itself like the hebrew." -- Ortega y Gasset. From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Sat Oct 15 17:10:51 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 18:10:51 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510151212230501.1A62A98E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510152220.j9FMKWWe062704@keith.ezwind.net> On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 12:12:23 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 10/15/2005 at 10:31 AM Fred Cisin wrote: >>APL >> >>It appears to be a subset of Egyption hieroglyphics, >>and is obscure enough that there will be few attempts >>to program in it by people ungamiliar with the language. >Is there any other language that suffers as much from the "one liner" >syndrome--that is, the perverse pride of being able to do something obscure >with a single unreadable line of code? >LISP maybe? I'l take that bate :) nested (mapcar (lambda's in a tight recursion ... Oh what I would give for a goto some times :) Perl is much worse.... >--Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Oct 16 04:17:26 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:17:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator In-Reply-To: Charles "Looking for RL02 cable and terminator" (Oct 15, 22:47) References: Message-ID: <10510161017.ZM9410@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 15 2005, 22:47, Charles wrote: > but no cable or terminator. I could make my own if someone can > tell me where to get the connectors that fit the drive end. RL01 and RL02 cables have those funny connectors at both ends. It sounds like you haven't got the ribbon cable for the interface end either; that would be a short 40-way ribbon with a Berg connector on each end with one of the opposite-gender funny RL0x connectors plugged into one of the Bergs. I've never seen those connectors elsewhere, but on the inside of the drive, they're 40-pin headers like a Berg connector, so you could, as a last resort, use something else to get you going. > Also, I think someone cannibalized the disk brush out of mine :( No, only early RL01s had brushes. There's a field change order to remove them, and AFAIR RL02s never had brushes at all. > Fault light was on, load light was not. I didn't hook it up to the > interface board (obviously :) but not being well-acquainted with > these drives I don't know if it *has* to be connected before the > fault light goes off, or the heads free to load, or both... It has to be connected and terminated before the fault light will go off. > I do have a copy of the "RL01/02 Disk Subsystem User's Manual" but > the service manual and parts list looks essential at this point. > Hope it's on bitsavers ;) Look for the Pocket Service Guide -- that will give you what you need. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bernd at kopriva.de Sun Oct 16 05:11:16 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 12:11:16 +0200 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <4351A7AF.1000308@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20051016092530.EFAA8395F4@linux.local> On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:06:55 -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: >Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> And I seem to recall some number-crunching board with an i860 on it or >> something. ... there were some Microway NumberSmasher boards containing one or more i860 processors, those were available both as ISA and EISA boards ... Ciao Bernd From James at jdfogg.com Sun Oct 16 06:21:49 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 07:21:49 -0400 Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5887@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Now that my 8/A is up and running it's time to hook up the > RL02. I do have the interface board plugged into the Omnibus, > the correct boot ROMs on the option board, and the RL02 has > the Unit "0" plug but no cable or terminator. I could make my > own if someone can tell me where to get the connectors that > fit the drive end. Are you anywhere near Northern New England? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 06:39:27 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 00:39:27 +1300 Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator In-Reply-To: <10510161017.ZM9410@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <10510161017.ZM9410@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On 10/16/05, Pete Turnbull wrote: > RL01 and RL02 cables have those funny connectors at both ends. Drive-to-drive cables certainly all do, and _most_ interface-to-drive cables do, but some do not. In particular, I have seen a 40-pin-Berg-to-RL-drive cable (no ribbon cable whatsoever) in two situations; with an RLV12 in a MicroVAX-II, and my own RL8A. As long as I have had the controllers, I've had these two round cables that are about 2m long with one connector for the controller and one for the drive (no transition brackets, no anything between the controller and the first drive. I have never checked them to see if they are wired the same or not, but I wouldn't expect that they are (or if they are different that the difference amount to much). Of course, the printsets will be the best way to prove what an RL8A-to-drive cable needs to look like. > It sounds like you haven't got the ribbon cable for the interface end > either; that would be a short 40-way ribbon with a Berg connector on > each end with one of the opposite-gender funny RL0x connectors plugged > into one of the Bergs. The rig I think you are describing was typical of the RL11, for example, with a 40-pin ribbon cable to a black connector mounted in a mountable metal frame that accepted a drive-to-drive cable. That black transition connector, BTW, is identical to the transition connectors on the back of the disk drive units. Worst case, you can steal/borrow one from a scrap drive. > I've never seen those connectors elsewhere, but on the inside of the > drive, they're 40-pin headers like a Berg connector, so you could, as a > last resort, use something else to get you going. I have never tried it, but I suspect that one could rig up a ribbon cable from the right board in the RL01/RL02 all the way to the controller. It would be a bit annoying to change around the drive arrangement, but if you only have one or two drives and they don't migrate, it might be a satisfactory setup to wire the drive and controller together over a single cable with no breaks. -ethan From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Oct 16 07:49:05 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 13:49:05 +0100 Subject: Sone say tubes, some say valves .... Was: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <200510151354.j9FDsUxj052019@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510151354.j9FDsUxj052019@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <43524C41.4090502@gjcp.net> Bob Bradlee wrote: > Because Maplins is much closer to Stonehenge than the great majority > of the people purchasing tubes from William on ebay (like me). My nearest Maplins is in a different country from Stonehenge. >>From my prospective it is a big pond to cross, to a land where a pound is closer to two > bucks than a dollar. Not to mention the franking costs to post anything of weight :) Well, I'm sure that will sort out. > Surface post from the Jolly ole land of Merlin, back here to Central Ohio is running between Ah, but Merlin was English, wasn't he? Considering it's supposed to be the same Royal Mail, they're bloody useless down south. > 40 and 45 days by slow boat. I can have a full container shipped in about the same time, > most likely end up on the same boat. I had a seller just this spring post a drawing tube > containing a rare plate of the first aerial photo ever taken of Stonehenge sent by ship ! > I took about 2 months to get here @%$#^....... That's a very long time to ship stuff. There are people who have single-handedly sailed the Atlantic in a dinghy faster than that! Gordon From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Oct 16 07:51:56 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 13:51:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator" (Oct 17, 0:39) References: <10510161017.ZM9410@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <10510161351.ZM9880@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 17 2005, 0:39, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/16/05, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > RL01 and RL02 cables have those funny connectors at both ends. > > Drive-to-drive cables certainly all do, and _most_ interface-to-drive > cables do, but some do not. > > In particular, I have seen a 40-pin-Berg-to-RL-drive cable (no ribbon > cable whatsoever) > in two situations; with an RLV12 in a MicroVAX-II, and my own RL8A. The RLV12 comes with a cabinet kit as I described. Sounds like yours is unusual. I suppose it's possible, even likely, that DEC didn't do that for the RL8A, but they certainly made cabinet kits consisting of a short ribbon cable with a Berg connector and transition connector on a plate for RL11, RLV11, and RLV12. > > It sounds like you haven't got the ribbon cable for the interface end > > either; that would be a short 40-way ribbon with a Berg connector on > > each end with one of the opposite-gender funny RL0x connectors plugged > > into one of the Bergs. > > The rig I think you are describing was typical of the RL11, for example, with > a 40-pin ribbon cable to a black connector mounted in a mountable metal frame > that accepted a drive-to-drive cable. Yes, but also for RLV11 and RLV12. I've never seen one without that. > That black transition connector, BTW, is > identical to the transition connectors on the back of the disk drive > units. Worst > case, you can steal/borrow one from a scrap drive. Indeed. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 16 08:31:40 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 09:31:40 -0400 Subject: OS/2 vs Win3.1 Message-ID: <0IOG00D2VG8NE950@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: OS/2 vs Win3.1 > From: Bert Thomas > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:15:19 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >> How does OS/2 warp V3 compare to other PC OSs like CDR Concurrnet386 or >> win3.1? > >I don't know anything about Concurrent386, but comparing OS/2 Warp with >win 3.1 is like comparing pigs with streetlights. > >Win3.1 is a graphical shell around DOS. To overcome DOS' memory >limitations is uses some more advanced techniques of the processor, such >as protected mode. However, win3.1 programs are 16-bit. Win3.1 itself is >16 bit. Win 3.1 only allows cooperative multitasking. That means that a >another program can only get control if the running program gives it up. >This is a very short summery of Win3.1 > >OS/2 2.0 and higher are 32-bit operating systems. However, compatibility >with older OS/2 applications was considered very important and therefore >parts of the kernel and all device drivers are mainly 16 bit. Only >recently some 32-bit device drivers were written. > >OS/2 has its own graphical subsystem - a very advanced one. It can run >DOS programs in 'virtual dos machines' or VDM. A special mode of the 386 >processor allows a task to act as if it where a real mode task. Anything >that task does can trap the processor and thus can be handled by >exception handlers. OS/2 is very strong is this area. > >OS/2 has its own file system with some special features like "extended >attributes". > >OS/2 has dynamic priorities for tasks, that makes it more responsive. >For example, a task that has focus in the GUI is slightly raised in >priority. Or when a background task was blocking for something it might >receive a slight priority boost when that something becomes available. > >OS/2's time critical priority is handled "soft realtime". I've used OS/2 >in the past for process control, dosing in particular. For such >applications realtime behaviour is very important as a lattency of 1 sec >or more is disasterous for the product being manufactered. > >I can go on and on, but if you want to know more let me know and I write >it down later on. > >Regards, >Bert Thankyou for the informative comparison. I know 3.1 was 16 bit, I really didn't bother bringing W9x up and Concurrent386 was the other. Concurrent is interesting as the copy I have is a 10 user license. I fully read everything but it appears to support multiple users on one system as a time sharing and task sharing alternative to DOS. I susuect it's also 32bit or has some core task controls as 32bit code. Allison From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Oct 16 08:36:25 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 14:36:25 +0100 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> woodelf wrote: > But I think the reason the cable makes a difference is you got all the feed > back in a transistor amp ( less in a valve ) and any noise on the speaker > cables like ac hum? and other noise will get fed back to the amp What *exactly* do you live near that couples that much mains hum into speaker leads? Consider that the leads have very little inductance, and are shunted with a very low impedance load... Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Oct 16 08:43:18 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 14:43:18 +0100 Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator In-Reply-To: References: <10510161017.ZM9410@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <435258F6.2030001@gjcp.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > In particular, I have seen a 40-pin-Berg-to-RL-drive cable (no ribbon > cable whatsoever) > in two situations; with an RLV12 in a MicroVAX-II, and my own RL8A. > As long as I > have had the controllers, I've had these two round cables that are > about 2m long with > one connector for the controller and one for the drive (no transition > brackets, no anything > between the controller and the first drive. That's what I have, too. There are hefty metal eyelets crimped onto the braid at the end of the cable, so they can be screwed to the chassis. Gordon. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 16 09:43:47 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:43:47 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" Message-ID: <0IOG001H5JKT8152@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" > From: Gordon JC Pearce > Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 14:36:25 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >woodelf wrote: > >> But I think the reason the cable makes a difference is you got all the feed >> back in a transistor amp ( less in a valve ) and any noise on the speaker >> cables like ac hum? and other noise will get fed back to the amp > >What *exactly* do you live near that couples that much mains hum into >speaker leads? Consider that the leads have very little inductance, and >are shunted with a very low impedance load... > >Gordon. It's that oxygen free copper its so pure it hears galactic noise. Gag! Magnetic hum is square law, unless one of the speaker wires are wrapped around the power line I'm sorry it ain't there. Besides paired wires are naturally resistant. Every time I hears this stuff I do an eye roll. Allison From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Sun Oct 16 10:16:33 2005 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:16:33 +0200 Subject: Compute magazine Message-ID: <43526ED1.8010503@ais.fraunhofer.de> Hi, for quite some time I have some magazines of COMPUTE ("Club Of Microprocessor Programmers, Users and Technical Experts"), a gazette sponsored by National Semiconductor, lying around which I consider worthwhile to be conserved for the past. The date I am talking about is around 1975..1977. Some questions: 1. I have only some issues, namely V2N7...V2N12, V3N4...V3N7. Does anyone have other issues (and is willing to scan or copy those)? I'd be very interested in this epoch. 2. Scanning: You find a sample issue at http://www.ais.fraunhofer.de/~veit/v2n7.pdf (2MB). This was scanned B&W 400dpi, stored as TIF and converted with Acrobat. My problem is that even with this some listing pages are barely readable, see page 3 for example. This is probably because of lack of contrast; the magazine is printed on light brown paper with dark brown text. If one scans in color with 600dpi (as in sample http://www.ais.fraunhofer.de/~veit/3x.pdf, 2MB) this will result in much larger files - the raw TIF is 95MB on my disk, which is not a diskspace issue for me, but for downloaders; expect a single issue to be 40MB and more in size. Do the "professional scanners" here, like Al, have a recommendation for resolving this? Regards Holger From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 10:34:47 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:34:47 +0100 Subject: Sone say tubes, some say valves .... Was: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <200510151354.j9FDsUxj052019@keith.ezwind.net> References: <4350D4CC.2030604@gjcp.net> <200510151354.j9FDsUxj052019@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <26c11a640510160834p55adc12dh@mail.gmail.com> I had a seller just this spring post a drawing tube > containing a rare plate of the first aerial photo ever taken of Stonehenge sent by ship ! > I took about 2 months to get here @%$#^....... > For about a fiver (or about half that, if your think Sterling) one can have a Kilo of near > instant gratification delivered to the door in about two days with electronic tracking. > A friend of mine last year sent a large package of christmas presents home to Australia. He paid ?60 for postage, the guy in the Post Office ticked the wrong box and it went the slow way. It was posted in November and arrived in May. At least by then they assumed it was lost and give him ?400 compensation. I don't think it was worth the grief his mother gave him for "Forgetting about us, now you live over there etc." Dan Dan From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 16 13:30:35 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 13:30:35 -0500 Subject: battery education sought Message-ID: <010801c5d27f$b311b990$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I noticed my HP 262X terminals have a "Duracell TR133" battery in the back to maintain settings when powered off. The battery indicates "Mercury" on the side. Are mercury batteries rechargable? I would have thought they'd use a nicad or something to charge up while the unit was on. The TR133 battery also indicates "4.2V". It seems the Duracell replacement for this battery is Alkaline, and 4.5V. Should I use it? Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 16 13:33:06 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 13:33:06 -0500 Subject: HP 7970 power supplies available Message-ID: <010c01c5d280$0ced43d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Not sure if I posted these before or not, sorry if it's a repeat. I have a fair number of HP 7970E and 7970B power supplies available (about 10 or 15). I keep meaning to take them to the dump but just haven't made it yet. If anyone wants one (or two or three) let me know ASAP. Jay West From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 16 13:37:16 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 12:37:16 -0600 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca> <43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43529DDC.6030901@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > woodelf wrote: > > What *exactly* do you live near that couples that much mains hum into > speaker leads? Consider that the leads have very little inductance, > and are shunted with a very low impedance load... > Well I was never a fan of the gold plated bla bla bla speaker and power cables. What I do have is noise in my amp --- left speaker no input that I am not sure what to trace from, noisy tube or what but no hum. The right speaker don't have this problem, but it is only if I have my ear right up to my 96? db speakers that I can hear it. Once I play music it goes away ... Any ideas contact me directly. > Gordon. Tube Audio ... Not pricy at all compare to Classic Computers. PS. The only thing preventing me from building a replica of say PDP 8 in a FPGA is the lack of a paper tape reader/punch. From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 16 14:15:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 12:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need volunteers for fun, interesting, and worthwhile project Message-ID: I'm working on a public service project being funded and hosted by a semi- major internet-based institution (sorry, gotta keep low-key about it in public until the big announcement). The resulting work will be a public domain utility that will be useful for everyone who works with computers, and somewhat directly relates to what we do here as computer and software collectors. If you have a couple hours to spare each week to do minimal research and data entry over the web, please contact me directly and I will fill you in with the details. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Oct 16 15:17:37 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:17:37 -0400 Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4352B561.4050401@atarimuseum.com> I have a half dozen terminators if you need one, I don't have any spare cables though. Curt Charles wrote: >... like the subject line says. > >Now that my 8/A is up and running it's time to hook up the RL02. I >do have the interface board plugged into the Omnibus, the correct >boot ROMs on the option board, and the RL02 has the Unit "0" plug >but no cable or terminator. I could make my own if someone can >tell me where to get the connectors that fit the drive end. > >Also, I think someone cannibalized the disk brush out of mine :( >There is a big open area towards the right rear of the disk >compartment and a pin with a snapring groove protruding downwards, >but nothing in the empty hole there except two silver-colored >tubes down below (air ducts?)... seemed pretty clean inside, as it >should. > >So I left the heads parked (blocked by the transport plate), >inserted the disk pack and ran the blower for a while anyway. >Fault light was on, load light was not. I didn't hook it up to the >interface board (obviously :) but not being well-acquainted with >these drives I don't know if it *has* to be connected before the >fault light goes off, or the heads free to load, or both... > >I do have a copy of the "RL01/02 Disk Subsystem User's Manual" but >the service manual and parts list looks essential at this point. >Hope it's on bitsavers ;) > >Thanks for any help. >-Charles > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.1/136 - Release Date: 10/15/2005 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 16 12:49:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 18:49:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: battery education sought In-Reply-To: <010801c5d27f$b311b990$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Oct 16, 5 01:30:35 pm Message-ID: > > I noticed my HP 262X terminals have a "Duracell TR133" battery in the back > to maintain settings when powered off. The battery indicates "Mercury" on > the side. > > Are mercury batteries rechargable? I would have thought they'd use a nicad > or something to charge up while the unit was on. No they are not. IIRC, it lasts a good few years, but was designed to be customer-replacable (hence the little plastic clip-in holder). A NiCd would probanly have been soldered to one of the PCBs. > > The TR133 battery also indicates "4.2V". It seems the Duracell replacement > for this battery is Alkaline, and 4.5V. Should I use it? IIRC, a PX21 Alkaline battery is much the same size (and 4.5V) and works fine. Same battery as used in the EDC Praktica SLR cameras, BTW. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 16 12:23:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 18:23:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 16, 5 03:17:23 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/16/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > outputs of the 11/44 PSU,. There's a 5V rail (120A or so) for the logic > > > > > > That's not a power supply, that's a MIG welder. > > > > Oh come on, it's only 600W... > > But it does need a large friendly warning sticker that says, "Do Not Lick!" It's not the output that neads such a notice, it's the 400V DC (rectified or doubled mains) on barrier strips right under the top cover. Touch that, and you won't feel a thing -- ever! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 16 12:29:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 18:29:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator In-Reply-To: from "Charles" at Oct 15, 5 10:47:23 pm Message-ID: > > Also, I think someone cannibalized the disk brush out of mine :( > There is a big open area towards the right rear of the disk > compartment and a pin with a snapring groove protruding downwards, > but nothing in the empty hole there except two silver-colored > tubes down below (air ducts?)... seemed pretty clean inside, as it > should. IIRC, the brush assembly was not fitted to later drives (maybe all RL02s didn't have it), as it did more harm than good. Those tubes are air ducts. There are basically 2 airflows in the RLs. The first is the cooling air, which comes in at the front through the prefilter, through those tubes, which are a sort of heat exchanger to cool the disk pack air, and then over the logic and out through the muffin fan at the back. The second is the air that recirculates through the back and the absolute filter, driven by a fan on the motor. Although there is clearly some interchage of air (it's not a sealed-unit winchester or anything like that), doing it this way reduces the amount of 'dirty' air going onto the abcsolute fiter, so the filter is claimed to last longer. > > So I left the heads parked (blocked by the transport plate), > inserted the disk pack and ran the blower for a while anyway. > Fault light was on, load light was not. I didn't hook it up to the > interface board (obviously :) but not being well-acquainted with > these drives I don't know if it *has* to be connected before the > fault light goes off, or the heads free to load, or both... You will get a FAULT light if there's no controller connected. The drive needs a clock signal from the controller > > I do have a copy of the "RL01/02 Disk Subsystem User's Manual" but > the service manual and parts list looks essential at this point. > Hope it's on bitsavers ;) The 3 manuals I use a lot are the printset (obviously), a very complete technical manual (it even explains the contents of the PROMs on the drive logic board) that I've only ever seen on microfiche, and the pocket service guide, which has a remarkable amount of useful info in it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 16 12:33:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 18:33:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Friden EC-130 calculator schematics? In-Reply-To: <4351D526.7060805@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 16, 5 05:20:54 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >>No, don't have a schematic, but if anyone wants to lend me a physical > >>unit, I'll reverse engineer it. :) > >>(..seriously; it's one I have wanted to RE.) > > > > > > You're generous... I would expect to be _given_ (as in, to keep > > afterwards) the machine if I was going to spend a few weeks/months > > producing schematics > > I don't believe you :-) Seriously, if the machine in question's OK, ask me to reverse-engineer a complex machine without giving it to me and see how far you get... Yes, I do enjoy figuring out how things work, but the real reason I produce such diagrams is to keep my own machines running. Of course I share them with othes, but I am not going to spend a lot of time figuring out how to keep _your_ machine running unless I get something in return. That something is normally an example of the machine in question. I do make exceptions occasionally. If the machine is sufficiently simple that I can figure it out completely in a couple of days, then I might do it anyway (I do not own all the HP handhelds covered by the HPCC schematics CD-ROM, I borroowed many of them from other members). But I could produce a schematic for one of those in an afternoon at most. I do own all the desktops covered by that disk, producing diagrams for one of those takes weeks. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 16 12:37:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 18:37:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator In-Reply-To: <10510161017.ZM9410@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 16, 5 10:17:26 am Message-ID: > > RL01 and RL02 cables have those funny connectors at both ends. It > sounds like you haven't got the ribbon cable for the interface end > either; that would be a short 40-way ribbon with a Berg connector on > each end with one of the opposite-gender funny RL0x connectors plugged > into one of the Bergs. > > I've never seen those connectors elsewhere, but on the inside of the > drive, they're 40-pin headers like a Berg connector, so you could, as a > last resort, use something else to get you going. The connector on the back of the drive is one of the adapters between the odd RL-style connector (on the outside) and the 40 pin Berg on the inside. It is exactly the same part as the connector you put between the other and of the RL-type cable and the 40 way ribbon cable back to the controller. I remember raiding those connectors off scrapped RL power supplies to connect up the RLs (and for that matter RK07s) in one of my systems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 16 12:40:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 18:40:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 17, 5 00:39:27 am Message-ID: > > On 10/16/05, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > RL01 and RL02 cables have those funny connectors at both ends. > > Drive-to-drive cables certainly all do, and _most_ interface-to-drive > cables do, but some do not. > > In particular, I have seen a 40-pin-Berg-to-RL-drive cable (no ribbon > cable whatsoever) > in two situations; with an RLV12 in a MicroVAX-II, and my own RL8A. Yes, that cable (40 pin BERG socket to RL-style plug was commonly used with the RL8A and with Qbus conntrollers. Electrically there's no difference between using that cable, and using the 40 pin Berg socket to Berg socket cable + RL style socket + RL-to-RL cable. That setup was more commonly used with the RL11 Unibus controller, but it works with any of them AFAIK. Use whichever is more convenient (or whichever you have parts to do). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 16 12:45:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 18:45:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator In-Reply-To: <10510161351.ZM9880@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 16, 5 01:51:56 pm Message-ID: > > On Oct 17 2005, 0:39, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 10/16/05, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > RL01 and RL02 cables have those funny connectors at both ends. > > > > Drive-to-drive cables certainly all do, and _most_ interface-to-drive > > cables do, but some do not. > > > > In particular, I have seen a 40-pin-Berg-to-RL-drive cable (no ribbon > > cable whatsoever) > > in two situations; with an RLV12 in a MicroVAX-II, and my own RL8A. > > The RLV12 comes with a cabinet kit as I described. Sounds like yours > is unusual. I suppose it's possible, even likely, that DEC didn't do > that for the RL8A, but they certainly made cabinet kits consisting of a > short ribbon cable with a Berg connector and transition connector on a > plate for RL11, RLV11, and RLV12. My hard-drive MINC uses a cable like Ethan described. That is, a cylindrical cable with a Berg socket on one end (which, in that machine, plugs into an RLV11) and an RL-type plug on the other, which plugs into one of the 2 RL01s in the cabinet. There's a normal RL-RL cable linking them, and a terminator, of course. COme to think of it, I think my RL8A came with that sort of cable. But they're electrically the same, you can use either. -tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 16 15:53:11 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:53:11 -0400 Subject: battery education sought Message-ID: <0IOH009Q20OEJM30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: battery education sought > From: "Jay West" > Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 13:30:35 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I noticed my HP 262X terminals have a "Duracell TR133" battery in the back >to maintain settings when powered off. The battery indicates "Mercury" on >the side. Extinct due to envromental concerns. Common use these days are the 3V lithium coin cells for the same uses. >Are mercury batteries rechargable? I would have thought they'd use a nicad >or something to charge up while the unit was on. Do not attempt to charge. Bad things can happen. Mercury batteries were used for many reasons, high energy density, extremely long shelf life at near zero power consumption and very stable voltage over life. Lithium cells have replaced them in most apps where battey drain is low and extremely long stable life is desired. >The TR133 battery also indicates "4.2V". It seems the Duracell replacement >for this battery is Alkaline, and 4.5V. Should I use it? > >Jay I'd expect that would work just fine. If your really uncertain add a shotkey rectifer in series (Vf about .3V). My bet is the logic they keep alive is a CMOS RAM and in operation that device Vcc is 5V. Allison From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Oct 16 15:52:51 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 15:52:51 -0500 Subject: IRIS failure point-beware paper caps! Message-ID: <839c13f3a3ae4fec80548d6f81e5b1a3@valleyimplants.com> I took the IRIS over to Ray's to see if we could get it working and pull anything of interest off the drives, and the power supply died. If you have one of the Motorola IRISes be sure that you check out two paper caps (C7 is one of them) on the 5v rail board (on the fan side of the P/S). Had a failure in one or both that caused a (hypothesized) spike to the rectifier bridge and smoked a MOV/resistor link to ground. Fortunately there doesn't seem to be any logic damage, but watch out if you've got one of these! Later research with an electronics book revealed that paper & electrolytic are the most failure-prone of the capacitors. I'm going to replace with mylar (I know they're not original, Tony, but it's a terrible job to get that P/S out, and I don't want anything to die the next time). Scott Quinn From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 16 16:06:22 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:06:22 -0500 Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator In-Reply-To: References: <10510161017.ZM9410@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200510161606.22978.pat@computer-refuge.org> Ethan Dicks declared on Sunday 16 October 2005 06:39 am: > I have never tried it, but I suspect that one could rig up a ribbon > cable from the right board in the RL01/RL02 all the way to the > controller. It would be a bit annoying to change around the drive > arrangement, but if you only have one or two drives and they don't > migrate, it might be a satisfactory setup to wire the drive and > controller together over a single cable with no breaks. I know you can do it, because that's how mine is hooked up. Fortunately I was able to cheaply buy some terminators off a (well-known) dealer near Chicago. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Oct 16 17:09:19 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 15:09:19 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1129500559.7470.6.camel@linux.site> On Sun, 2005-10-16 at 00:52 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > outputs of the 11/44 PSU,. There's a 5V rail (120A or so) for the logic > > > > That's not a power supply, that's a MIG welder. > > Oh come on, it's only 600W... A mere pittance! The main (unregulated) DC supply for my KL10 CPU is 12v at 490A! :-) -- TTFN - Guy From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sun Oct 16 17:18:51 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 18:18:51 -0400 Subject: HP 9133XV jumper query Message-ID: <20051016221851.9AB8C200D043@mail.cs.drexel.edu> "John S" wrote: > J?rgen Keller recently cracked how to access his 9133XV combined hard drive > and floppy drive unit from his HP-85 - see full article here: > http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cgi?read=562 > > I would like to check with other 9133XV owners if their drives also had the > same A/B/C jumper, I suspect this was only present on certain revisions of > the drive. Actually all 9133V and 9133XV should have the same controller (09133-69508) at least that's what the book says: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/09134-90032-Aug-1983.pdf page III-1-2 (9133V/XV & 9134XV Theory of Operation). Regarding the jumper settings for selecting between 4 volume (HP-85 compatible) vs 1 volume configurations, Section II of the manual which refers to the 9133A/B, 9134A/B and the 9135 drives, shows the J6 jumper settings on page II-1-9 [1], while Section III has a table on page III-1-1. BTW this manual provides a wealth of information about all the Amigo compatible members of the 913X family. It is beautifully scanned in B&W (pictures in greyscale) and produces high-quality printed output. If you have an early version 913X, this manual is a must-have. **vp [1] early versions of the 9133A, 9134A and 9135A drives used a different controller which does not appear to be configurable (see page II-1-2). From tradde at excite.com Sun Oct 16 17:25:39 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 18:25:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator Message-ID: <20051016222539.D566A3E1C@xprdmailfe11.nwk.excite.com> I think I have a few of the RL02 cables that have the funny ends. But I only have one of the ribbon cable that goes from the inerface card with a berg connector to the bulk head. I am sure I could scrounge one of those spares if you don't get one elsewhere. I only have one good working RL02 drive, but many parts drives. --- On Sun 10/16, Curt @ Atari Museum < curt at atarimuseum.com > wrote: From: Curt @ Atari Museum [mailto: curt at atarimuseum.com] To: General at smtp3.suscom.net, Discussion at smtp3.suscom.net@excite.com, UNEXPECTED_DATA_AFTER_ADDRESS at .SYNTAX-ERROR. Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:17:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator I have a half dozen terminators if you need one, I don't have any spare
cables though.


Curt



Charles wrote:

>... like the subject line says.
>
>Now that my 8/A is up and running it's time to hook up the RL02. I
>do have the interface board plugged into the Omnibus, the correct
>boot ROMs on the option board, and the RL02 has the Unit "0" plug
>but no cable or terminator. I could make my own if someone can
>tell me where to get the connectors that fit the drive end.
>
>Also, I think someone cannibalized the disk brush out of mine :(
>There is a big open area towards the right rear of the disk
>compartment and a pin with a snapring groove protruding downwards,
>but nothing in the empty hole there except two silver-colored
>tubes down below (air ducts?)... seemed pretty clean inside, as it
>should.
>
>So I left the heads parked (blocked by the transport plate),
>inserted the disk pack and ran the blower for a while anyway.
>Fault light was on, load light was not. I didn't hook it up to the
>interface board (obviously :) but not being well-acquainted with
>these drives I don't know if it *has* to be connected before the
>fault light goes off, or the heads free to load, or both...
>
>I do have a copy of the "RL01/02 Disk Subsystem User's Manual" but
>the service manual and parts list looks essential at this point.
>Hope it's on bitsavers ;)
>
>Thanks for any help.
>-Charles
>
>
>
>
>


--
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_______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Oct 16 17:58:50 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 18:58:50 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 15 Oct 2005 12:12:23 PDT." <200510151212230501.1A62A98E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510162258.j9GMwow4018317@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >Is there any other language that suffers as much from the "one liner" >syndrome--that is, the perverse pride of being able to do something obscure >with a single unreadable line of code? > >LISP maybe? nah. I would caution the reader not to confuse simplicity or minimalism with excessive syntactic sugar. -brad From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Oct 16 18:02:03 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:02:03 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca> <43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4352DBEB.9070604@mdrconsult.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > woodelf wrote: > >> But I think the reason the cable makes a difference is you got all the >> feed >> back in a transistor amp ( less in a valve ) and any noise on the >> speaker >> cables like ac hum? and other noise will get fed back to the amp > > > What *exactly* do you live near that couples that much mains hum into > speaker leads? Consider that the leads have very little inductance, and > are shunted with a very low impedance load... Check this out: http://venhaus1.com/airsine.html US$700 power cable. I'm not kidding. Doc From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Oct 16 18:18:18 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 18:18:18 -0500 Subject: Apple III CP/M Card by Microsoft - 1982 In-Reply-To: <03c101c5d0f9$be8134e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200510162328.j9GNS7HG084399@keith.ezwind.net> eBay 5819807276 There was some interest in such Apple add-in cpu cards latelybut I don't have the htread. Gil From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Oct 16 18:24:07 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 18:24:07 -0500 Subject: Another strange Apple artifact In-Reply-To: <03c101c5d0f9$be8134e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200510162334.j9GNY2c6084509@keith.ezwind.net> Apple /// Slot Machine Front Glass Panel In the early 80s some Las Vegas slots paid a top prize of an Apple III System. No kidding! Here is a glass panel from one of them It measures about 23 X 11 It has a nice baroque gold frame A fantastic Apple artifact. Painted on glass! EbAY ITEM # 2757124365 Gil From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 16 17:36:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:36:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: battery education sought In-Reply-To: <0IOH009Q20OEJM30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Oct 16, 5 04:53:11 pm Message-ID: > >I noticed my HP 262X terminals have a "Duracell TR133" battery in the back > >to maintain settings when powered off. The battery indicates "Mercury" on > >the side. > > Extinct due to envromental concerns. Common use these days are the I am not at all convinced that the environmental harm done by mercury batteries (particularly if correctly recycled is worse than the damage done by all the equipment that was replaced becasue you can no longer get the right battery. But anyway... > Mercury batteries were used for many reasons, high energy density, > extremely long shelf life at near zero power consumption and very > stable voltage over life. Lithium cells have replaced them in To go OT for a momnet, a lot of 1950's/1960's cameras used a mercury cell to power the exposure meter. The constant voltage meant the circuit could be very simple (just the CdS photoresistor, the mercury cell, a microammeter movement and a couple more resistors, generally). Now that such cells are unobtainium, there are various kludges, some of which work better than others, but it's still a pain. Incidentally, I was told that the Eastern Bloc cells were anything but constant voltage, which means that cameras from those countries, like Exaktas and Prakticas tended to use a wheatstone bridge circuit for the meter, with correct exposure being at the balance point of the bridge. Of course that design doesn't care about the battery voltage, so such cameras are still easy to keep going. Unlike that ridiculous circuit in the Pentax Spotmatic. It's a weatston bridge alright, but the correct exposure point is not when the bridge is balanced, it's when a certain, small, current flows through the meter. It therefore is dependant on battery voltage. The official justification is that a totally flat battery can't give the correct exposure indication, to me it appears they got the design wrong.... > most apps where battey drain is low and extremely long stable > life is desired. > > >The TR133 battery also indicates "4.2V". It seems the Duracell replacement > >for this battery is Alkaline, and 4.5V. Should I use it? > > > >Jay > > I'd expect that would work just fine. If your really uncertain add a shotkey > rectifer in series (Vf about .3V). My bet is the logic they keep alive > is a CMOS RAM and in operation that device Vcc is 5V. I've not pulling mine apart yet, and the 'service' manual on hpmuseum.net doesn't include schematics, but I will bet you're right. I am pretty sure the HP150 (original version [1]) used a similar battery arrangement, and it maintains a 5101 CMOS RAM chip. I have schematics for that. [1] On the 150-II, there are a couple of lithium (?) cells soldered to the PSU/sweep PSB. With a bit more circuitry, they supply a backup supply to a pin on the Elmer custom chip, which contains the configuration RAM. Or at least that's what happens on most machines. On some early ones, including mine, the Elmer chip wasn't fitted, becasue apparently it wasn't ready in time. Instead, there's a header plug soldered to the main PCB in placeof the Elmer chip, and a little daughterboard containing a handful of chips is plugged into it. One of thsoe -- and the one that the battery maintains -- is a 5101 CMOS RAM. FWIW, I do have HP150 schematics (both versions). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 16 18:46:49 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:46:49 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <1129500559.7470.6.camel@linux.site> References: <1129500559.7470.6.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <200510161646490536.20844881@10.0.0.252> On 10/16/2005 at 3:09 PM Guy Sotomayor wrote: >A mere pittance! The main (unregulated) DC supply for my KL10 CPU is >12v at 490A! :-) Hmmm, next thing we'll be seeing up for grabs is one of those big 3-phase MG sets used on the old mainframes. Power supply regulation was tweaking a Variac and looking at a meter. Wonder how many DC amps a CDC 6600 system (CPU and peripherals) needed? IIRC power distribution was 400 Hz AC, so it'd take some back-of-the-envelope pencil work. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 16 18:57:07 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:57:07 -0700 Subject: battery education sought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510161657070721.208DB744@10.0.0.252> On 10/16/2005 at 11:36 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >To go OT for a momnet, a lot of 1950's/1960's cameras used a mercury cell >to power the exposure meter. The constant voltage meant the circuit could >be very simple (just the CdS photoresistor, the mercury cell, a >microammeter movement and a couple more resistors, generally). Now that >such cells are unobtainium, there are various kludges, some of which work >better than others, but it's still a pain. Modern silver-oxide batteries have very stable voltage-vs-discharge characteristics. My 1960's Nikon F2 Photomic uses a pair and does just fine. http://www.sony.net/Products/MicroBattery/sr/ --Chuck From fireflyst at earthlink.net Sun Oct 16 19:33:36 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:33:36 -0500 Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001201c5d2b2$6a32c150$6401a8c0@dementium> I have an RL02 cable that goes from the controller to the drive. That was commonly used in "package" situations where you had things like a 8/A or 11/23PLUS in a H96xx chassis shipped from the factory. Unfortunately on this cable the part that screws onto the drive has broken off, but I used to use that cable and it never affected anything, it works great. I ran a single RL02 with RT-11 on it for a long time, and played many games without problems. I also have a spare terminator. Let me know if you want it and maybe we can work out a trade or something. Julian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 10:47 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator ... like the subject line says. Now that my 8/A is up and running it's time to hook up the RL02. I do have the interface board plugged into the Omnibus, the correct boot ROMs on the option board, and the RL02 has the Unit "0" plug but no cable or terminator. I could make my own if someone can tell me where to get the connectors that fit the drive end. Also, I think someone cannibalized the disk brush out of mine :( There is a big open area towards the right rear of the disk compartment and a pin with a snapring groove protruding downwards, but nothing in the empty hole there except two silver-colored tubes down below (air ducts?)... seemed pretty clean inside, as it should. So I left the heads parked (blocked by the transport plate), inserted the disk pack and ran the blower for a while anyway. Fault light was on, load light was not. I didn't hook it up to the interface board (obviously :) but not being well-acquainted with these drives I don't know if it *has* to be connected before the fault light goes off, or the heads free to load, or both... I do have a copy of the "RL01/02 Disk Subsystem User's Manual" but the service manual and parts list looks essential at this point. Hope it's on bitsavers ;) Thanks for any help. -Charles From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Oct 16 20:02:38 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 20:02:38 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <43513468.7000606@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200510170112.j9H1CXD0085989@keith.ezwind.net> > > ... > > > >>Native-compiled Java. > > > > > > Ruled out. > > > > Gil > > I missed the OP doing that - what was the reason? Proprietary to a single vendor. Gil > Pretty much > any language is going to be natively compiled in this > scenario surely? > Java's one of the few where there's the option to run > interpreted code (which might be useful in this situation) > > cheers > > Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 16 20:19:29 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 02:19:29 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510170112.j9H1CXD0085989@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510170112.j9H1CXD0085989@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4352FC21.8090207@yahoo.co.uk> Gil Carrick wrote: >>>... >>> >>> >>>>Native-compiled Java. >>> >>> >>>Ruled out. >>> >>>Gil >> >>I missed the OP doing that - what was the reason? > > > Proprietary to a single vendor. Well the syntax is... but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing (as otherwise there'd be a bazillion ways of doing any one thing and we'd end up with C++ :-) Far as I recall the bytecode spec is freely available though, so anyone can write a compiler, VM, native compiler, or other utility. Plus of course the flexibility's there to override most of the core stuff if needs be (dynamically, if one so choses), so it's not the case at all that you're stuck with the Sun way of doing things (agreed that the Web application side of it is a bloody nightmare though!) cheers J. From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 20:43:14 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 21:43:14 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4352FC21.8090207@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200510170112.j9H1CXD0085989@keith.ezwind.net> <4352FC21.8090207@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <435301B2.1020705@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Gil Carrick wrote: > >>>> ... >>>> >>>> >>>>> Native-compiled Java. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ruled out. >>>> >>>> Gil >>> >>> >>> I missed the OP doing that - what was the reason? >> >> >> >> Proprietary to a single vendor. > > > Well the syntax is... but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing > (as otherwise there'd be a bazillion ways of doing any one thing and > we'd end up with C++ :-) > > Far as I recall the bytecode spec is freely available though, so anyone > can write a compiler, VM, native compiler, or other utility. Indeed, IBM has two brands of Java. Peace... Sridhar From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Oct 16 20:55:17 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 20:55:17 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <435301B2.1020705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510170205.j9H258Wx086816@keith.ezwind.net> ... > >> Proprietary to a single vendor. > > > > > > Well the syntax is... but I don't think that's necessarily > a bad thing > > (as otherwise there'd be a bazillion ways of doing any one > thing and > > we'd end up with C++ :-) > > > > Far as I recall the bytecode spec is freely available though, so > > anyone can write a compiler, VM, native compiler, or other utility. > > Indeed, IBM has two brands of Java. Tell it to Microsoft. Gil > > Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 16 20:57:21 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 21:57:21 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages Message-ID: <0IOH00CXRER9QZ20@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT: Language for the ages > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 02:19:29 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >>>>Ruled out. >>>> >>>>Gil >>> >>>I missed the OP doing that - what was the reason? >> >> >> Proprietary to a single vendor. I'd agree. I off in its place MACROASSEMBLER, which is fairly old, very flexible and portable. That and a good macro library you too can have something looking almost like C or pseudocode if thats your wish. The only problem is I doubt there many that still know it or use it. I think them small chips that run chevy fuel injection are programmed in C++ crosscompiled, or so they would have us believe. ;) Allison From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 21:00:29 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 22:00:29 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510170205.j9H258Wx086816@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510170205.j9H258Wx086816@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <435305BD.6020407@gmail.com> Gil Carrick wrote: > ... > >>>>Proprietary to a single vendor. >>> >>> >>>Well the syntax is... but I don't think that's necessarily >> >>a bad thing >> >>>(as otherwise there'd be a bazillion ways of doing any one >> >>thing and >> >>>we'd end up with C++ :-) >>> >>>Far as I recall the bytecode spec is freely available though, so >>>anyone can write a compiler, VM, native compiler, or other utility. >> >>Indeed, IBM has two brands of Java. > > > Tell it to Microsoft. That's a different story. A very long one at that. Peace... Sridhar From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sun Oct 16 21:00:11 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 04:00:11 +0200 Subject: Need Silent 700 schematic In-Reply-To: <001301c5d10a$128918e0$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <001301c5d10a$128918e0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <1129514411.6861.52.camel@fortran> On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 17:56 -0400, Bob Shannon wrote: > I can't even get the pin-out for the thing! > Does anyone know what pins to use for RS-232 I/O? From: Dan Cohoe Subject: RE: Silent 700 connector pinout? Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:40:01 -0500 (Mon, 04:40 CEST) The S-700 side of the connector has two separate sets of data connections, one for the keyboard/printer and one for the acoustic coupler. An option was a cable which branched to two DB25's for connection to each part of the terminal. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Terminal Cable Function | Connector(P1) Termination P2 & P3 --------------------------------------------------------------------- KB & printer EIA: P1-9 P2-1 Protective Ground P1-13 P2-2 Transmit Data P1-12 P2-3 Receive Data P1-10 P2-4 +12 Volts to RTS P1-1 P2-7 Signal Ground P1-11 P2-8 Data Carrier Detect P1-15 P2-20 Data Terminal Ready Acoustic Coupler EIA: P1-8 P3-3 Receive data P1-3 P3-2 Transmit Data P1-1 P3-7 Signal Ground P1-2 P3-8 Carrier Detect P1-9 P3-1 Protective Ground P1-6 P3-5 Clear to send P1-7 P3-6 Data Set Ready I have the manual and could scan some more pages if necessary. Dan So one needs to jumper the 15-pin cable at the back? I've never seen a TI *with* the thing! (I've seen 3 in very varying condition) I was recently lent a TI 745 - and it doesn't even paper advance. On Line does light up when I whistle. How do you take it apart? I am trying, but... :) tia&rgd toresbe From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Oct 16 21:08:33 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 21:08:33 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <0IOH00CXRER9QZ20@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510170218.j9H2IORg087124@keith.ezwind.net> ... > I off in its place MACROASSEMBLER, which is fairly old, very > flexible and portable. That and a good macro library you too > can have something looking almost like C or pseudocode if > thats your wish. C _IS_ a macroassembler. Gil From brother_cadfael at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 16 21:38:23 2005 From: brother_cadfael at sbcglobal.net (Brian H.) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement Message-ID: <20051017023823.92512.qmail@web81810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thank you William, Sorry Jay! Brian Hanson Sorry about the plug, Jay, but he asked! William Donzelli "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." Theodore Roosevelt (1858 - 1919) From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 16 21:44:52 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 21:44:52 -0500 Subject: Public Service Announcement References: <20051017023823.92512.qmail@web81810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008401c5d2c4$c08805d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written... > > Sorry about the plug, Jay, but he asked! > > William Donzelli > I had no problem with Williams plug :) > "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we > are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and > servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." Theodore > Roosevelt (1858 - 1919) This however... was marginal ;) J From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Oct 16 21:53:06 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 21:53:06 -0500 Subject: GDS Tapeouts solved... In-Reply-To: <200510142108.j9EL8Q10021478@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200510170303.j9H33183087862@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Do you have the pokey? I think I'd like a wall plot of that > just for old time humor sake... > > (I did a little time with the pokey 'back in the day' - like 83 & 84) > > -brad Large plots of chips would be really cool for our museum and inexpensive to ship. For that matter, I have a nice HP inkjet printer & could run off some of my own if anybody could send me some files and some software to print it with. I could probably even bring up a Linux system for something that cool. ;) Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Oct 16 21:54:43 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 21:54:43 -0500 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <03c101c5d0f9$be8134e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200510170304.j9H34ZBF087902@keith.ezwind.net> There were 4 versions at different compression formats. I downloaded a couple. I could download the others & write a CD if somebody needed it. Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Allain > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 2:59 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Releasing OS/2 > > > Which episode? > > Ask Google: > Ask Prelinger Archive: > Answer: > 1988: "Multitasking" > "As operating systems grew more robust, one of the key > new features was the ability to multitask, run several > applications at the same time. This program looks at > some new approaches including Concurrent DOS from > Digital Research, Windows 386 from Microsoft, IBM's OS/2, > Apple's A/UX, and Tandy's Xenix..." > http://www.archive.org/details/CC518_multitasking > > > I'd like to see that. > > Me too. Somebody make a disk of this Quick! > > John A. From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Oct 16 22:19:02 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:19:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: <008401c5d2c4$c08805d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: > I had no problem with Williams plug :) No one has a problem with the plugs I sell. ARC-5, plugs, mostly. Oops, soory. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 17 00:08:32 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 22:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unisys, shame on you In-Reply-To: <000601c5d118$2c636960$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > http://www.unisys.com/about__unisys/history/ Hmm, a lot of dubious information there. They depend on a lot of arguable definitions to make "first" claims. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Oct 17 00:31:46 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 01:31:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <200510170533.BAA26681@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> C is the obvious choice. In either case, you have to be careful >> that you don't wreck the portability by using non-portable I/O. > Er, how big is an int? a pointer? If you care (for reasons affecting your code), you're writing nonportable code. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Oct 17 00:33:13 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 01:33:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <17233.13166.949310.212378@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> <434FFE8A.50607@srv.net> <038601c5d0f3$d4443f80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <435020CD.3070208@autonoma.edu.co> <4350C5A8.30001@gjcp.net> <17233.13166.949310.212378@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200510170533.BAA26695@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [FORTRAN is] one of very few languages (perhaps the only one, unless > you count shiny new C++ standards) in which complex numbers are a > first class data type. What about gcc? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From RCamarda at aol.com Sun Oct 16 15:38:45 2005 From: RCamarda at aol.com (RCamarda at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:38:45 EDT Subject: Cromemco SCC Eproms/images needed Message-ID: <1db.463e3a4c.30841455@aol.com> Hi Joe, I was wondering if you ever found the MCB-216 roms, or source code for the Cromemco SCC board. I am also looking for them. Let me know if you can help. Thanks! Rich From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Sun Oct 16 11:06:50 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 12:06:50 -0400 Subject: Sone say tubes, some say valves .... Was: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <26c11a640510160834p55adc12dh@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510161616.j9GGGU5X077821@keith.ezwind.net> On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:34:47 +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > I had a seller just this spring post a drawing tube >> containing a rare plate of the first aerial photo ever taken of Stonehenge sent by ship ! >> I took about 2 months to get here @%$#^....... >> For about a fiver (or about half that, if your think Sterling) one can have a Kilo of near >> instant gratification delivered to the door in about two days with electronic tracking. >> >A friend of mine last year sent a large package of christmas presents >home to Australia. He paid ?60 for postage, the guy in the Post Office >ticked the wrong box and it went the slow way. >It was posted in November and arrived in May. At least by then they >assumed it was lost and give him ?400 compensation. I don't think it >was worth the grief his mother gave him for "Forgetting about us, now >you live over there etc." At least he was vindicated when it arrived many months later. >Dan >Dan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Oct 17 00:36:19 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 01:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051016011902.9E8C073029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051016011902.9E8C073029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200510170540.BAA26755@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Er, how big is an int? a pointer? > In ANSI C, [...]. A pointer is big enough to hold an address to any > type. A pointer is big enough to hold whatever information is necessary to find and operate on any object of the pointed-to type, plus at least one special value which does not point to any object of that type. It may or may not bear any visible relationship to any addresses the underlying hardware may have, and it may or may not be the same size or representation as a pointer to some other type. (Though pointer to void must be large enough to store any other pointer type without information loss. For various reasons, pointer to char ditto.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com Mon Oct 17 01:30:20 2005 From: Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com (Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:30:20 +0200 Subject: FW: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE Message-ID: <8396A6180D00874B9A19FD728529F06A06B13D@nlhoo1-exc010.aerospace.intra> Hoi Nico, Ik zit nu al een poosje via het forum aangesloten op alle gerelateerde mail, maar weet niet meer hoe en waar ik mezelf kan uitloggen om van deze mail replies af te komen! Weet jij misschien hoe dit moet, ik krijg nu elke dag meer dan 100 mails waar ik niks meer mee doe! M.vr.gr. Rinaldo -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nico de Jong Sent: zaterdag 15 oktober 2005 10:18 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: FW: LARGEST COMPUTER COLLECTION IN THE WORLD (?) FOR SALE Fra: "Nico de Jong" > > Hallo Jos > > Wat is de volle naam van die newsgroup? Ik kan 'm bij mijn provider niet > onmiddellijk vinden > > Nico > Begging your pardon. This should have been off-list -------------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any attachment(s) sent with it are intended exclusively for the addressee(s), and may not be used by, opened by, passed on to, or made available for use to, any person other than the addressee(s). Stork rules out any and all liabilities resulting from any electronic transmission. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Oct 17 02:21:49 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 00:21:49 -0700 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca> <43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> <4352DBEB.9070604@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43535100.4A02798E@cs.ubc.ca> Doc Shipley wrote: > Check this out: > > http://venhaus1.com/airsine.html > > US$700 power cable. I'm not kidding. > > Doc But according to the user comments it compares favorably to the $4000 Ultra Kahn II. cf.: P.T. Barnum et al. From bert at brothom.nl Mon Oct 17 04:50:43 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:50:43 +0100 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <4352DBEB.9070604@mdrconsult.com> References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca> <43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> <4352DBEB.9070604@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <435373F3.2040801@brothom.nl> Doc Shipley wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> woodelf wrote: >> >>> But I think the reason the cable makes a difference is you got all >>> the feed >>> back in a transistor amp ( less in a valve ) and any noise on the >>> speaker >>> cables like ac hum? and other noise will get fed back to the amp >> >> >> >> What *exactly* do you live near that couples that much mains hum into >> speaker leads? Consider that the leads have very little inductance, >> and are shunted with a very low impedance load... > > > Check this out: > > http://venhaus1.com/airsine.html > > US$700 power cable. I'm not kidding. What kind of people believe in this crap? Do they replace the wiring in their house as well to prevent micro-movements of the wires? And after that the cable that delivers electricity to their house? Or are they generating their own "clean" current with special generators wounded with golden wires? Hmmm, with some fantansy I can create a whole new market. From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Oct 17 05:43:02 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:43:02 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <435373F3.2040801@brothom.nl> References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca> <43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> <4352DBEB.9070604@mdrconsult.com> <435373F3.2040801@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <43538036.2070206@mdrconsult.com> Bert Thomas wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: >> Check this out: >> >> http://venhaus1.com/airsine.html >> >> US$700 power cable. I'm not kidding. > > > What kind of people believe in this crap? > Do they replace the wiring in their house as well to prevent > micro-movements of the wires? > And after that the cable that delivers electricity to their house? > Or are they generating their own "clean" current with special generators > wounded with golden wires? > Hmmm, with some fantansy I can create a whole new market. Hmmm. Wanna incorporate? I like the way you think. Doc From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 07:32:05 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:32:05 +0100 Subject: Utterly OT: mobile FTP to Yahoo web hosting In-Reply-To: <000001c5d205$b2f383a0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> References: <000001c5d205$b2f383a0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <26c11a640510170532u698d4aacm@mail.gmail.com> Have you tried connecting to the ftp server with a telnet client on the phone. It could be firewall issues at their end. Dan From mtapley at swri.edu Sun Oct 16 11:14:21 2005 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 11:14:21 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 26, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: <200510142308.j9EN8cb8064907@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510142308.j9EN8cb8064907@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 18:08 -0500 10/14/05, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process that > >will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years.... Also depends on how inviolate the code must be, and how verifiable the system. If you need to re-create the system, FORTH can be implemented with a lot fewer gates of hardware and a lot fewer lines of code than JAVA - and would therefore be a lot easier to verify, if you need to design/build new hardware to run your legacy code on in 25 years. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From jplist at kiwigeek.com Mon Oct 17 08:19:45 2005 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:19:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM System/34 with diskettes & documentation available in Iowa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > It is with some sadness that I must offer up my System/34 to fellow > > collectors. I have never gotten a 220v hookup for it, and I need the space > > it lives in (my garage) for this coming winter. > > If the time runs out on the S/34, and it is headed for the scrap yard, I > could use the boards and media. I have an S/34, but I have not started to > play with it. > > S/34 - apparently one of those forgotten machines... As much as I need to get rid of it, I'd never dump it. So I'm keeping it complete - either someone takes it all or I'll... I'll... paint it orange or something. Doesn't _anyone_ want a whole S/34? :P JP From CPUMECH at aol.com Mon Oct 17 08:21:57 2005 From: CPUMECH at aol.com (CPUMECH at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:21:57 EDT Subject: Need Silent 700 schematic Message-ID: <60.601e8454.3084ff75@aol.com> What specific model do you have? TI has many models of silent 700 series. The silent series is because it uses a thermal printhead. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 09:00:07 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:00:07 +0800 Subject: DEC RX180 dual floppy? Message-ID: Hello, Was wondering which systems can you hook up a RX180 dual floppy unit with? Which controllers can you match it up with? From mmaginnis at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 09:02:32 2005 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:02:32 -0600 Subject: IBM System/34 with diskettes & documentation available in Iowa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/17/05, JP Hindin wrote: > > > On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > > It is with some sadness that I must offer up my System/34 to fellow > > > collectors. I have never gotten a 220v hookup for it, and I need the space > > > it lives in (my garage) for this coming winter. > > > > If the time runs out on the S/34, and it is headed for the scrap yard, I > > could use the boards and media. I have an S/34, but I have not started to > > play with it. > > > > S/34 - apparently one of those forgotten machines... > > As much as I need to get rid of it, I'd never dump it. So I'm keeping it > complete - either someone takes it all or I'll... I'll... paint it orange > or something. > > Doesn't _anyone_ want a whole S/34? :P > > JP > > Apparently, someone does. There's one over on eBay (8709130357) with a $100 opening bid placed on it, 4+ days left... - Mike From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 09:09:18 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:09:18 -0400 Subject: IBM System/34 with diskettes & documentation available in Iowa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4353B08E.6050701@gmail.com> JP Hindin wrote: > > On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > >>>It is with some sadness that I must offer up my System/34 to fellow >>>collectors. I have never gotten a 220v hookup for it, and I need the space >>>it lives in (my garage) for this coming winter. >> >>If the time runs out on the S/34, and it is headed for the scrap yard, I >>could use the boards and media. I have an S/34, but I have not started to >>play with it. >> >>S/34 - apparently one of those forgotten machines... > > > As much as I need to get rid of it, I'd never dump it. So I'm keeping it > complete - either someone takes it all or I'll... I'll... paint it orange > or something. > > Doesn't _anyone_ want a whole S/34? :P I'd love to have it, but I'm in the process of moving right now, and I can't afford to move it. Peace... Sridhar From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 09:40:58 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gates Foundation Gives $15 Million to Computer History Museum In-Reply-To: <4353B08E.6050701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051017144058.56425.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051017/ap_on_hi_te/gates_computer_museum_gift __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 17 09:44:39 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:44:39 -0400 Subject: DEC RX180 dual floppy? Message-ID: <0IOI00JO5E9WSS40@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: DEC RX180 dual floppy? > From: Wai-Sun Chia > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:00:07 +0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Hello, >Was wondering which systems can you hook up a RX180 dual floppy unit with? >Which controllers can you match it up with? RX180 is for the DEC Robin AKA Vt180 CP/M system (looks like a VT100). The drives however are generic SA400L or TM100 40 track single sided. There is no internal controller, has a nice power supply however. Allison From mmaginnis at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 10:35:44 2005 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:35:44 -0600 Subject: Another strange Apple artifact In-Reply-To: <200510162334.j9GNY2c6084509@keith.ezwind.net> References: <03c101c5d0f9$be8134e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <200510162334.j9GNY2c6084509@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 10/16/05, Gil Carrick wrote: > Apple /// Slot Machine > Front Glass Panel > > In the early 80s some Las Vegas slots paid a top prize of an Apple III > System. > No kidding! > Here is a glass panel from one of them > It measures about 23 X 11 > It has a nice baroque gold frame > A fantastic Apple artifact. Painted on glass! > > EbAY ITEM # 2757124365 > > Gil > > He's had that item up for a long time now (I'm thinking years, here...). That seller always has a great "pile" to pick through, but his prices are generally too high for my tastes. - Mike From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Mon Oct 17 10:58:02 2005 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:58:02 +0200 Subject: Looking for a IBM 5110 EMI filter. Message-ID: <001001c5d333$8e171f40$8101a8c0@dordt.nl> Hi William, >> Who can help me with an EMI filter from an IBM 5110 ? >> Mine has an internal non-repairable short circuit. > Is it the same as the one on the 5100? Yes, see: http://home.hccnet.nl/h.j.stegeman/EMIfilter.jpg > Sadly, I finally junked my stock of EMI filters, simply because in six > years, I did not sell a SINGLE ONE! Normally these robust discrete filters give never a problem, except mine :-( Regards Henk From waisun.chia at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 10:58:16 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:58:16 +0800 Subject: DEC RX180 dual floppy? In-Reply-To: <0IOI00JO5E9WSS40@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOI00JO5E9WSS40@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 10/17/05, Allison wrote: > RX180 is for the DEC Robin AKA Vt180 CP/M system (looks like a VT100). > > The drives however are generic SA400L or TM100 40 track single sided. > There is no internal controller, has a nice power supply however. Could I connect it to other systems than the Robin? If so which controller? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 17 11:07:57 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:07:57 -0600 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 26, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: References: <200510142308.j9EN8cb8064907@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4353CC5D.20205@jetnet.ab.ca> Mark Tapley wrote: > At 18:08 -0500 10/14/05, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> >Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing >> process that >> >will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years.... > > > Also depends on how inviolate the code must be, and how verifiable the > system. If you need to re-create the system, FORTH can be implemented > with a lot fewer gates of hardware and a lot fewer lines of code than > JAVA - and would therefore be a lot easier to verify, if you need to > design/build new hardware to run your legacy code on in 25 years. Are we tallking real gates as in TTL, or FPGA style design? Forth does have several advantages over say fortran since they removed the Sense Switch requirment of fortran.My worry is that you may not be able to high-level threshold logic and memory anymore for industral problems. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 17 11:06:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Someone got their IBM 029 working In-Reply-To: <200510150955520438.19E5AD82@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Anyone have one of those portable manual punches? Yes, I can't imagine how anyone would've used one. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Oct 17 11:14:28 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:14:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: Bert Thomas "Re: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1"" (Oct 17, 10:50) References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca> <43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> <4352DBEB.9070604@mdrconsult.com> <435373F3.2040801@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <10510171714.ZM12832@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 17 2005, 10:50, Bert Thomas wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: > > Check this out: > > > > http://venhaus1.com/airsine.html > > > > US$700 power cable. I'm not kidding. > > What kind of people believe in this crap? > Do they replace the wiring in their house as well to prevent > micro-movements of the wires? > And after that the cable that delivers electricity to their house? > Or are they generating their own "clean" current with special generators > wounded with golden wires? > Hmmm, with some fantansy I can create a whole new market. One of my cow orkers, Marc, has pointed out that some of it's been done before: http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/ For those who don't want to wade through the drivel, Marc sums it up thus: "Stuff like ensuring all books in the listening room have to have an odd number of pages, sticking bits of foil here there and everywhere...the web site reads like some weird cult, but he made a lot of money from it, so who's the fool ??" -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 17 11:34:45 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:34:45 -0400 Subject: DEC RX180 dual floppy? Message-ID: <0IOI00L7FJDDADR0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DEC RX180 dual floppy? > From: Wai-Sun Chia > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:58:16 +0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 10/17/05, Allison wrote: >> RX180 is for the DEC Robin AKA Vt180 CP/M system (looks like a VT100). >> >> The drives however are generic SA400L or TM100 40 track single sided. >> There is no internal controller, has a nice power supply however. > >Could I connect it to other systems than the Robin? >If so which controller? There is nothing special about the RX180. It's only a DEC styled box with a power supply and two drives. Yes, any system. Any controller. The drives are generic 40tr 5.25" single sided and work ad single, double density as well as hard sector. I've used them with Robin, NorthStar*, TRS80, AmproLB, homebrew (765based) and PCs. Allison From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Oct 17 12:06:29 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:06:29 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <10510171714.ZM12832@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca> <43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> <4352DBEB.9070604@mdrconsult.com> <435373F3.2040801@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051017130147.01be6028@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Pete Turnbull may have mentioned these words: >One of my cow orkers, Marc, has pointed out that some of it's been done >before: > >http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/ > >For those who don't want to wade through the drivel, Marc sums it up >thus: Another quick drivel snippety: Place the CD (or any other object you are wishing to experiment with) in a plain plastic bag and place it in the domestic deep freezer... and leave it there overnight. The next day, lift it out and allow it to return to room temperature very, very slowly (usually by placing it in a towel or blanket). Allowing the object to return to room temperature very, very slowly is important. You should perceive an improvement in the sound when you listen to the object which has been through the freezing process.... Please note that if the CD (or other object) being frozen is treated with the strips of Rainbow Foil and Cream-Electret prior to freezing, you will obtain even greater improvements in the sound. =-=-= OMFG! Freezing CD's makes 'em sound better?!?!? And what the heck is Cream-Electret -- nevermind - I don't wanna know after all. <:-O Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 17 12:08:59 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:08:59 -0700 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <10510171714.ZM12832@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca> <43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> <4352DBEB.9070604@mdrconsult.com> <435373F3.2040801@brothom.nl> <10510171714.ZM12832@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200510171008590657.243E6639@10.0.0.252> On 10/17/2005 at 5:14 PM Pete Turnbull wrote: >One of my cow orkers, Marc, has pointed out that some of it's been done >before: > >http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/ I'd love to see what Bob Pease would make of all of this, he did have a field day with speaker cables: http://www.national.com/rap/Story/0,1562,3,00.html 4 feet of 10 AWG oxygen free copper wire connecting to 14 AWG house wiring back to the distrubution panel. Why not some 1/2" gold-plated copper tubing in a fused quartz box filled with argon for the absolutely best AC sound? Wonder if folks know how noisy the average AC mains supply is? Ah, but that's it--disconnect from the mains entirely! Run your audio rig off of a pile of deep-cycle lead-acid batteries. No need for those terrible switching power supplies or (gasp!) transformers! I needed some binding posts (for a power supply I was building) and found that one of the surplus dealers had some for very cheap, so I ordered some. Much to my surprise, they turned out to be gold-plated with wire insertion holes that could easily accommodate 6 ga wire. Mind you, the wiring tie points attached to the posts would pass 18 ga wire, tops. I concluded that they must have been manufactured for the audiophile trade. No one else in his right mind would use small banana-plug type binding posts for conductors that large. Cheers, Chuck From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Oct 17 12:11:26 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:11:26 -0700 Subject: Need a driver: Intel PCMCIA Flash card In-Reply-To: <200510112007260715.5450E0E1@192.168.42.129> References: <200510112007260715.5450E0E1@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: On 10/11/05, Bruce Lane wrote: > > Fellow classic'ers, > > I've been all over Intel's site and Google, and have come up empty. > > I have here a 4MB PCMCIA 'FLASH' card with Intel's name and colors on it. > I know it has a standard MS-DOS filesystem on it, and I'm trying to find a > driver to read the thing under Windows 2000 Pro. You shouldn't need a driver for it if it's formatted with a standard MS-DOS file system. PCMCIA flash drives (and compact flash) just appear as drives on vanilla IDE controllers. I haven't seen one that wasn't recognized when inserted. Do other PCMCIA cards work on the system? Does the card tell you which standard it's manufactured to (cardbus or cardbus II?) Eric I'll resort to FreeBSD if I have to, but I would prefer otherwise. I've > tried the current version of SystemSoft's CardWizard Pro with no luck. > > Ideas? Declarations? Speeches about how looney the whole idea is? > > Thanks much. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, > Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m > "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with > surreal ports?" > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 17 12:20:31 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:20:31 -0700 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051017130147.01be6028@mail.30below.com> References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca> <43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> <4352DBEB.9070604@mdrconsult.com> <435373F3.2040801@brothom.nl> <5.1.0.14.2.20051017130147.01be6028@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200510171020310872.2448F630@10.0.0.252> On 10/17/2005 at 1:06 PM Roger Merchberger wrote: >OMFG! Freezing CD's makes 'em sound better?!?!? And what the heck is >Cream-Electret -- nevermind - I don't wanna know after all. <:-O Roger, brass musicians of the same mindset have been paying big money for years to have someone dunk their instrument in a dewar of liquid nitrogen, waxing euphoric about the way the instrument response changes. Of course, there's no real basis in science and most of the victims overlook the "prep" work that's part of the package and really makes the big difference. Mark my words--the audiophile fringe will be dunking CD's in liquid N2 any day now... Cheers, Chuck From charlesmorris at direcway.com Mon Oct 17 12:21:23 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris at direcway.com) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:21:23 -0400 Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator Message-ID: <45109784514bda.4514bda4510978@direcway.com> I did find the tech manuals (from classiccmp's mirror of bitsavers). Tony, IIRC it says the early drives *did not* have brushes and later model ones were equipped with them? Incidentally this drive started life as an RL01 but also has a DEC sticker "changed to RL02 by PCO" just to further confuse things. Do you still recommend I not install them? I think that airflow and centrifugal force might be the only safe way to remove particles rather than "grinding" them across the disk platter surface with a brush, no matter how lightly... I think there may also be a "Fault" if the brushes are not parked? Ethan, thanks for the suggestion about using a 40 pin double-ended-Berg cable from inside the drive. I haven't taken the electronics cover off yet. I only have one 8/A and one RL02 so once mounted in the rack cabinet they'll stay there, connected to each other. The 40-pin cable will be, of course, trivial to make IF the pinouts are the same on both ends. Unless someone has the correct RL8A-to-RL02 cable, and a terminator, they would like to sell me? thanks -Charles From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Oct 17 12:24:24 2005 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:24:24 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510161346.j9GDkPvb092221@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510161346.j9GDkPvb092221@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 10/17/05, woodelf wrote: >Are we tallking real gates as in TTL, or FPGA style design? Forth does >have several advantages >over say fortran since they removed the Sense Switch requirment of >fortran.My worry is that you >may not be able to high-level threshold logic and memory anymore for >industral problems. Either TTL, or in 20 years, whatever the then-current version of FPGA or ASIC is. (To tell the truth, I had in mind re-creating the Harris RTX2010, but that's just me.) The point is, creating from scratch and then verifying a system (hardware, OS, software) to run FORTH reliably would be far easier than the same task for FORTRAN or JAVA, and in 20 years, that may be the path you'd choose to take. I am depressed at how difficult it has become for any one person to really understand either all of the hardware or all of the software (let alone both) in any commodity system, whether controller or desktop. Two more decades in that direction, and who'll know *what* is "under the hood"? Viruses, mal-ware in distribution CD's, Pentium floating-point multiply bugs, cache sync errors, my personal favorite - a compiler that forgot to save the contents of its floating-point registers when it got an interrupt in the middle of a calculation - and so on .... That stuff will all affect "emulators" too. So if your application is mission-critical, you may want/need to re-build the platform system from scratch. Better a simple set of system requirements (a la FORTH) if that's where you end up going. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Mon Oct 17 12:31:53 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:31:53 +0200 Subject: USB stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1129570313.24844.5.camel@fortran> On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 19:01 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > I am wonderign why you'd want that. Personally, I find a PSU easier to > move around than a computer. If it's for use in a car, I'll either use > the cigar lighter, or add a power output socket somewhere sane. The device is quite practical when hacking at night, plug it in on the laptop's side USB port and voila, working light. It can be carried around like a pencil, and weighs very little. If you're going to carry the laptop around anyway... :) I think the aquarium is sort of a parody of the whole USB-everything fad. The fan is BTW very nice when the weather is hot, but it's way too brittle. -toresbe From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 17 12:42:42 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:42:42 -0600 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <200510171020310872.2448F630@10.0.0.252> References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca> <43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> <4352DBEB.9070604@mdrconsult.com> <435373F3.2040801@brothom.nl> <5.1.0.14.2.20051017130147.01be6028@mail.30below.com> <200510171020310872.2448F630@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4353E292.5050707@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 10/17/2005 at 1:06 PM Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > >>OMFG! Freezing CD's makes 'em sound better?!?!? And what the heck is >>Cream-Electret -- nevermind - I don't wanna know after all. <:-O >> >> > >Roger, brass musicians of the same mindset have been paying big money for >years to have someone dunk their instrument in a dewar of liquid nitrogen, >waxing euphoric about the way the instrument response changes. Of course, >there's no real basis in science and most of the victims overlook the >"prep" work that's part of the package and really makes the big difference. > >Mark my words--the audiophile fringe will be dunking CD's in liquid N2 any >day now... > > They do that already for TUBEs . I just want good sound, not big $$$ for the latest fad. >Cheers, >Chuck > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 17 12:45:46 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:45:46 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" Message-ID: <0IOI00L1QMNPZ2U0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:08:59 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >4 feet of 10 AWG oxygen free copper wire connecting to 14 AWG house wiring >back to the distrubution panel. Why not some 1/2" gold-plated copper >tubing in a fused quartz box filled with argon for the absolutely best AC >sound? Wonder if folks know how noisy the average AC mains supply is? Anyone care to hazard what Oxygen Free Copper Wire is? "It's copper free of the cupric oxide dipole pairs that can cause unwanted rectification and attended mixing of signals resulting in added intermodulation distortion." B#))$^!t (a form of bovine excrement). We did this as a result of the above quote from "The Audio Expert". I did not doubt that said expert was just repeating what he's heard with zero understanding. I actually managed to get a piece of the stuff from the resident audiophile. My boss heard that and as a result of his engineering expertize in materials and my major eye roll and grimace we sent it off with some similar copper wire of the same guage from a local source to a materials lab for analysis. Since the company was in the business or using wire of all types as part of the product there was significant expertize available to analyse the result. Findings were the generic #6 and the OFCW got mixed up that the assay of both looked the same. Not similar, the same as nothing to distinguaish any difference. One came from local hardware store. Owing to the price difference we laughed very hard at the so called audiophilic inane beliefs. Quality copper wire is nominally oxygen free or it would show a distinct resistance variation from standard. Another easy test is to take a known length, measure the resistance at a easily calibrated standard temperature (ice water). Then raise the temperature (boiling water) to a new known point and remeasure with accurate milliohmmeter. Calculate the alpha (rate of change in resistance over temperature) pure copper has a known alpha and they will be the same to meaurement limits. If they differ it's due to impurity in the copper, plating if any (silver is commonly used for TFE coated wires, Nickel is common too) or it's not plain copper (copper clad steel). It's not rocket science. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 17 12:52:01 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:52:01 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" Message-ID: <0IOI00DW7MY48700@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:20:31 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/17/2005 at 1:06 PM Roger Merchberger wrote: > >>OMFG! Freezing CD's makes 'em sound better?!?!? And what the heck is >>Cream-Electret -- nevermind - I don't wanna know after all. <:-O > >Roger, brass musicians of the same mindset have been paying big money for >years to have someone dunk their instrument in a dewar of liquid nitrogen, >waxing euphoric about the way the instrument response changes. Of course, >there's no real basis in science and most of the victims overlook the >"prep" work that's part of the package and really makes the big difference. Actually hardening and annealing with extreme cold or heat has a measurable effect on metals. There is _some_ rational basis there. However.. local temerature changes (environment) affect the metals used to a greater extent through expansion and contraction. FYI: it was tested by dupont years ago that nylon (as in pantyhose) treated with a LN2 dunk had a better wear characteristic. No memory of why that was found to work. >Mark my words--the audiophile fringe will be dunking CD's in liquid N2 any >day now... Did it, they smash far better, louder too! (Those pesky AOL CDs). Can't say that they play better though. Allison From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 12:58:58 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:58:58 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <0IOI00DW7MY48700@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOI00DW7MY48700@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4353E662.5060704@gmail.com> Allison wrote: >>Mark my words--the audiophile fringe will be dunking CD's in liquid N2 any >>day now... > > Did it, they smash far better, louder too! (Those pesky AOL CDs). > Can't say that they play better though. My preferred method of AOL CD disposal is to play frisbee with it for a little while (just until it's good and scratched), then run it over with the car a couple of times, then cut it into pieces, put it in a container of gasoline, burn it, then take the remaining residue, clean it, and bury it. I believe in being thorough. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Oct 17 13:09:09 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:09:09 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4350C257.8080601@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <4350C257.8080601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 10/15/05, woodelf wrote: > > The most real non-portable C factor is everybody expects bytes to 8 bits > and CR,LF line endings are > a bitch. I think a character can be 7 or more bits, a int something bigger > like 16. ( As far as I know C never made it to a PDP8 ). > I'm not sure what you mean about CR-LF line endings being a problem for C. For text files the character '\n' returns the appropriate ending, whether it is CR-LF, CR, or LF. For binary files you shouldn't need to write carriage returns. Integral types in C aren't difficult. They are just flexible, and because they are flexible, you need to know the rules. A char needs to be able to hold at least 127 unique values which makes it at least 7 bits with one allowed "non-unique" value (for example +0 and -0 allowed to have different bit patterns but compare equal, or a value can be reserved for other purposes (signaling, I/O, etc)). That makes it a bit different from the other integral types which are required to behave in standard two's compliment fashion. Regardless of the number of bits or machine words used to store a char, the size of a char is 1 (sizeof(char)==1). If you want to know the number of "bits" in a char, there's always the CHAR_BIT macro. Whether char is unsigned or signed is implementation dependent. If you need one or the other use "signed char" or "unsigned char". An int needs to hold at least 65536 unique values (-32768..32767) (16 bits). I believe that it is required to be at least as large as a char. An unsigned long needs to be able to hold the values between 0 and 65535. Arithmetic must behave as if the numbers are stored as two's compliment [ (x | -1) == -1 , (x & -1) == x ] A long needs to be at least 32 bits and must the at least as large as an int. The size of a pointer needs to be at least as large as an int. Pointers to one type are not necessarily convertable to pointers to another type, although all pointers can be cast to void *. Avoid converting pointers into integral types. Do pointer math on pointers. From jhoger at pobox.com Mon Oct 17 13:21:15 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:21:15 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051014143009.03b9a2b0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051014143009.03b9a2b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <1129573275.20565.27.camel@aragorn> On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 14:36 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Forth. Runs on everything from a Tandy Model 100/102/200 (Heck, even some > word processors!) to new shiznit, extensible, and rather nearly > cross-platform. And, it's ontopic. I agree Forth would be a good choice. Typically the assembly language portion of the Forth kernel is extremely minimal. So very little code needs to be changed to port to a new architecture. So you could include the entire source code and documentation, and simple porting instructions for the interpreter along with your application. All on the same floppy disk ;-) The downside would be ease of integration with other languages and libraries. C may be a better choice, and almost certainly is if your application will have library dependencies. It would be hard to imagine a CPU and/or OS going into production without a C compiler and bindings being available for it. Fortran seems like a poor choice to me, unless you need access to the excellent scientific programming libraries available for it. In which case it is probably the default choice. But I imagine a tiny percentage of programs require that kind of math library support and can get by with much less. -- John. From allain at panix.com Mon Oct 17 13:25:02 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:25:02 -0400 Subject: Looking for a IBM 5110 EMI filter. References: <001001c5d333$8e171f40$8101a8c0@dordt.nl> Message-ID: <014d01c5d348$17925820$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > see: http://home.hccnet.nl/h.j.stegeman/EMIfilter.jpg Great picture. How about directly from Corcom? for example http://www.cor.com/Series/PowerLine/R/ the schematics and shapes are close, if not the connecting terminals. An even closer match may exist in the Corcom catalog. John A. From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Oct 17 13:25:29 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:25:29 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001001c5d348$28129660$5b01a8c0@pc1> Mark Tapley wrote: > I am depressed at how difficult it has become for any one > person to really understand either all of the hardware or all of the > software (let alone both) in any commodity system, whether controller > or desktop. That's because commodity stuff has become more complex. You can still understand stuff from 20 years ago as easily as you could 20 years ago (assuming you knew enough then, obviously). > Two more decades in that direction, and who'll know > *what* is "under the hood"? The engineers building X usually know how X works. There's probably no one person at my place of work who knows *everything* about all of the hardware and software, but there's always *someone* who knows whatever it is I happen to need to know. Admittedly the PSUs and batteries are bought in (as are the chips :-)) but if we really needed to know more than the datasheets tell us, we could find out. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From jhoger at pobox.com Mon Oct 17 13:30:17 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:30:17 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: References: <200510141937.j9EJbdFV009572@onyx.spiritone.com> <200510141347060339.1593099B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <1129573817.20565.36.camel@aragorn> On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 23:28 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Actually I think having the hardware around to run it isn't simply an > option, it's a requirement. Once it's certified, you can't easily > substitute out different hardware. To really future-proof, it would be a good idea to find a good, portable emulator for the processor in question and bundle it with the application source code. A program typically generates many dependencies on its environment: CPU, endianness, required CPU speed to be usable Operating system, Libraries, I/O devices, Required RAM, Language, Bitrot, programmer dependencies (no one else can read the code), big paradigm shifts (IMHO one day people will find it hard to understand our dubious flirtation with 'implementation inheritance') etc. You can leapfrog or at least contain all of these by having a well written, portable emulator. -- John. From dmabry at mich.com Mon Oct 17 13:28:59 2005 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:28:59 -0400 Subject: Need a driver: Intel PCMCIA Flash card In-Reply-To: References: <200510112007260715.5450E0E1@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <4353ED6B.2010501@mich.com> Eric J Korpela wrote: >On 10/11/05, Bruce Lane wrote: > > >>Fellow classic'ers, >> >>I've been all over Intel's site and Google, and have come up empty. >> >>I have here a 4MB PCMCIA 'FLASH' card with Intel's name and colors on it. >>I know it has a standard MS-DOS filesystem on it, and I'm trying to find a >>driver to read the thing under Windows 2000 Pro. >> >> > > > >You shouldn't need a driver for it if it's formatted with a standard MS-DOS >file system. PCMCIA flash drives (and compact flash) just appear as drives >on vanilla IDE controllers. I haven't seen one that wasn't recognized when >inserted. Do other PCMCIA cards work on the system? Does the card tell you >which standard it's manufactured to (cardbus or cardbus II?) > >Eric > >I'll resort to FreeBSD if I have to, but I would prefer otherwise. I've > > >>tried the current version of SystemSoft's CardWizard Pro with no luck. >> >>Ideas? Declarations? Speeches about how looney the whole idea is? >> >>Thanks much. >> >> >> >> >> I thought someone would chime in on this before now with the answer, or I would have brought it up sooner. There are basically two types of flash memory on PCMCIA cards. The first type, which was basically a linear addressable type, more like ram, is what I think the OP has. That one requires drivers in the operating system that manages the flash file system (FFS). Because flash memory is generally limited on the number of write cycles it can have before it starts to fail, the FFS implements a scheme that rotates through the flash memory array so that least recently used cells are used next. This maximizes the life of the entire array by not continuously writing to the same cells, like the ones that contain directory information. As far as I know there is no FFS built into Windows. Linear flash memory was not used that often for several reasons. Only one was the complexity of the FFS overhead. They were very expensive in the days of linear flash PCMCIA cards. Flash memory in PCMCIA cards became practical, affordable, and easy to use all at the same time. That was when they were packaged in "ATA Flash". The smarts to use LRU (Least Recently Used) cells was packaged right in the card. And the interface on those cards were the same as the Type III rotating memory cards. The cards with hard drives in them used that interface. So to the system that you plugged them into ATA Flash cards just appeared as small hard drives. The guts of the card did all the extra handling to make the actual flash cells work. The last time I fiddled with linear flash on PCMCIA it was in the DOS days and I probably used CardSoft or similar package for DOS. When ATA Flash came out in PCMCIA there was almost no reason to use linear flash anymore, so I don't know what would be needed today to make it work. BTW, the one linear flash card I have in my desk is also an Intel. It is marked "Value Series 100" and is labeled for 5volt operation. Hope this clears it up a bit. Dave Mabry From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Oct 17 14:25:24 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:25:24 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages References: <200510141937.j9EJbdFV009572@onyx.spiritone.com> <200510141347060339.1593099B@10.0.0.252> <1129573817.20565.36.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <17235.64164.519000.76863@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John R Hogerhuis writes: John> On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 23:28 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Actually I think having the hardware around to run it isn't simply >> an option, it's a requirement. Once it's certified, you can't >> easily substitute out different hardware. John> To really future-proof, it would be a good idea to find a good, John> portable emulator for the processor in question and bundle it John> with the application source code. That way you reduce the problem to a previously UNsolved problem. Now you have to solve the futureproofing problem for a more complex application (the emulator). paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 17 14:38:20 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:38:20 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <1129573817.20565.36.camel@aragorn> References: <200510141937.j9EJbdFV009572@onyx.spiritone.com> <200510141347060339.1593099B@10.0.0.252> <1129573817.20565.36.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <4353FDAC.8030309@yahoo.co.uk> John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 23:28 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >>Actually I think having the hardware around to run it isn't simply an >>option, it's a requirement. Once it's certified, you can't easily >>substitute out different hardware. > > > To really future-proof, it would be a good idea to find a good, portable > emulator for the processor in question and bundle it with the > application source code. Personally, I think it's a better plan to pick a language that is supported on a) as many current industry platforms as possible and b) on one or more platforms that's likely to be around for many years. Point a) probably drastically reduces the number of options. Point b) really boils down to a PC running Windows / Linux / *BSD I would expect. Taking that approach you can be as sure as you're able that either the hardware/OS will be around in 30 years, or an emulator will exist for that hardware/OS combination. (eg. I can see Wine under Linux out-living current flavours of Windows by many years) Bundling the language spec along with the source code would seem to be a good idea. Steering clear of a GUI to the app seems sensible to me (as I said elsewhere) - but making the app able to have the current favourite GUI stuck on top of it easily (whether that's native GUI controls, character-based, web-based, or whatever). Keep it simple and all that, make the app able to do what it needs to do well and avoid extra 'frills' on top. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 17 14:43:25 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gates Foundation Gives $15 Million to Computer History Museum In-Reply-To: <20051017144058.56425.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051017144058.56425.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051017124214.V24559@shell.lmi.net> > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051017/ap_on_hi_te/gates_computer_museum_gift That's very nice. But,... as a percentage of his disposable income, it's way less than the $10 that I gave. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 17 14:48:07 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:48:07 +0100 Subject: Gates Foundation Gives $15 Million to Computer History Museum In-Reply-To: <20051017124214.V24559@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051017144058.56425.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> <20051017124214.V24559@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4353FFF7.3080902@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051017/ap_on_hi_te/gates_computer_museum_gift > > > That's very nice. > But,... > as a percentage of his disposable income, > it's way less than the $10 that I gave. Ha ha! Nicely put :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 17 15:01:24 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <0IOI00DW7MY48700@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOI00DW7MY48700@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051017125826.F24559@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > FYI: it was tested by dupont years ago that nylon (as in pantyhose) treated > with a LN2 dunk had a better wear characteristic. No memory of why that was > found to work. YIKES! Did they consider the issue of how uncomfortable it must be to wear them that cold?? > Did it, they smash far better, louder too! (Those pesky AOL CDs). > Can't say that they play better though. I made a handle, and tried using them as pizza cutters. No good. There is NO known use for them! From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Oct 17 15:11:03 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <20051017125826.F24559@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > I made a handle, and tried using them as pizza cutters. No good. > There is NO known use for them! There is a company in Japan that makes a novelty transcription turntable so you can make lo-fi recordings on CDs. They also make a cylinder cutter, so you can record on syrofoam cups. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 17 15:15:13 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: References: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <4350C257.8080601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051017130233.V24559@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Eric J Korpela wrote: > I'm not sure what you mean about CR-LF line endings being a problem for C. > For text files the character '\n' returns the appropriate ending, whether it > is CR-LF, CR, or LF. For binary files you shouldn't need to write carriage > returns. ... and transferring a text file from one OS to another, . . . does CR mean \n, or is it being used for overstrike? does LF mean \n, or is it being used for formatted tables? does CRLF mean \n, or is it double spacing? > Integral types in C aren't difficult. They are just flexible, and because > they are flexible, you need to know the rules. "rules"??????? Who's rules? K&R very strenuously avoids defining the sizes. > A char needs to be able to hold at least 127 unique values which makes it at ONLY IF YOU'RE USING ASCII > least 7 bits with one allowed "non-unique" value (for example +0 and -0 > allowed to have different bit patterns but compare equal, or a value can be > reserved for other purposes (signaling, I/O, etc)). That makes it a bit > different from the other integral types which are required to behave in > standard two's compliment fashion. Regardless of the number of bits or > machine words used to store a char, the size of a char is 1 > (sizeof(char)==1). If you want to know the number of "bits" in a char, > there's always the CHAR_BIT macro. Whether char is unsigned or signed is ^^^^^^ NOT all compilers have that macro. > implementation dependent. If you need one or the other use "signed char" or > "unsigned char". > > An int needs to hold at least 65536 unique values (-32768..32767) (16 bits). NOT NECESSARILY. There HAVE been implementations of 12, 14, 15 bits. > I believe that it is required to be at least as large as a char. An unsigned > long needs to be able to hold the values between 0 and 65535. Arithmetic > must behave as if the numbers are stored as two's compliment [ (x | -1) == > -1 , (x & -1) == x ] 2's complEment (we're here to "complete" them, not to praise them) works very nicely, but C CAN be implemented with alternate encodings. > A long needs to be at least 32 bits and must the at least as large as an > int. NOT NECESSARILY. 24 bits for both int and long might not be a good idea, but it is still "valid" > The size of a pointer needs to be at least as large as an int. IFF we assume that the number of possible ints is as large as an int > Pointers to > one type are not necessarily convertable to pointers to another type, > although all pointers can be cast to void *. Avoid converting pointers into > integral types. Do pointer math on pointers. ... and miss out on the fun?? From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Oct 17 15:19:35 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:19:35 -0500 Subject: Logic Analyzer Recommendations In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90510150902v2a610626ib079dc57c17ff3c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: For those of us who are semi electronically inept (i.e. can replace components and burn eeproms, but not much else) what is a logic analyzer, what is it used for, and what situatios would require tyou to have one? (or when would it be helpful?) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 11:02 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Logic Analyzer Recommendations Is your budget $400 or $4000? If you really meant $4000 you can get some nice used equipment for that. I don't have experience with Tektronix, just HP / Agilent. If you don't need something portable I like 16700A mainframes. Not having a bult-in screen is a bonus in some ways in that if the built-in screen fails on newer portables it might not be cost effective to replace just the screen, plus with an external monitor you can run up to 1600x1200 vs 800x600 on some built-in screens. Also you should be able to find a 16700A without a built-in screen for a lot cheaper than a 16702A with a built-in screen. For $4000 you could get a 16700A fully loaded with something like (5x) 16715A modules (167MHz state / 333 MHz timing / 2MSa / 68 channel each card). I would much rather use a 16700A than a 16500B/C. One drawback of a 16700A compared to a 16500B/C is that the 16700A doesn't support the older and cheaper 16532A scope and 16520A pattern gen modules, only the newer and more expensive and harder to find 16533A/16534A scope and 16522A pattern gen modules. If your budget is $400 then you can't really go wrong with a 16500B with a 16550A or a 16555A or two. Yes they are older and big and heavy, but they are built pretty tough and there are enough of them out there that finding donor mainframes for parts if necessary should be easy. Just my $0.02 worth. (If you're interested in a 16700A/003 loaded with 16712A and 16715A modules and pods sets for less than $4000 send me mail offlist). -Glen From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 17 15:20:22 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:20:22 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" Message-ID: <0IOI00JZFTTCSUD1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:01:24 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: >> FYI: it was tested by dupont years ago that nylon (as in pantyhose) treated >> with a LN2 dunk had a better wear characteristic. No memory of why that was >> found to work. > >YIKES! >Did they consider the issue of how uncomfortable it must be to wear them >that cold?? They get warmed of course.. Then again I would how those guys understood all this. Hummmm. ;) >> Did it, they smash far better, louder too! (Those pesky AOL CDs). >> Can't say that they play better though. > >I made a handle, and tried using them as pizza cutters. No good. >There is NO known use for them! Actually I found Four uses for them. One of the older versions had some bits of software that was useful outside the AOL framwork. Handy to keep around for regressive uses. Makes a nice disk for an aneometer (wind speed) when combined with those plastic eggs. Made a useful stator and rotor for experiments in power generation using wind. Inexpensive substitute for clay targets in skeet shooting. Love the sound of a 12ga. ;) Allison From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 16:00:10 2005 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:00:10 -0700 Subject: Someone got their IBM 029 working In-Reply-To: References: <200510150955520438.19E5AD82@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: They were good for quick corrections. If you look in the chart of hollerith codes, at least on IBM, you could punch out all 12 holes on the card and they could be ignored data. So if you had a program that could hack it, you could pull out a card, punch out all the holes over the data, and then put in other data following the end, or whereever you desired. It actually was easier for me to use the manual punch for the few cases I ever corrected a card than it was to use the keypunch, because you could not see the card as clearly as you can with the manual one. Not that you had to have one. Also it was easier, at least to me to use the 029 to do the correcting than the 129, just because you had to get the magic number just right on the 129 before you punched the thing. also if you were doing a rubout on an 029, it was easier to dupe up to an error spot, then just rekey the data, obviously, given the proximity of an 029 and a supply of cards. On 10/17/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Anyone have one of those portable manual punches? > > Yes, I can't imagine how anyone would've used one. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Oct 17 16:03:00 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:03:00 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051017130233.V24559@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <4350C257.8080601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051017130233.V24559@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 10/17/05, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Eric J Korpela wrote: > > I'm not sure what you mean about CR-LF line endings being a problem for > C. > > For text files the character '\n' returns the appropriate ending, > whether it > > is CR-LF, CR, or LF. For binary files you shouldn't need to write > carriage > > returns. > > ... and transferring a text file from one OS to another, . . . > does CR mean \n, or is it being used for overstrike? > does LF mean \n, or is it being used for formatted tables? > does CRLF mean \n, or is it double spacing? I guess I forgot that one. In that case you do use binary mode and use '\n' for LF and '\r' for CR. But then again if you know what system you are transporting to you can just do something like char LF=10, CR=13; char CRLF[]={10,13}; > Integral types in C aren't difficult. They are just flexible, and because > > they are flexible, you need to know the rules. > > "rules"??????? > Who's rules? K&R very strenuously avoids defining the sizes. The ISO's rules, of course. The ISO standard is 16 years old now. > > A char needs to be able to hold at least 127 unique values which makes > it at > ONLY IF YOU'RE USING ASCII This has nothing to do with ASCII or anything else. One of the first things you learn in C is that 'char' isn't really short for character. 'char' is short for byte (aka the minimum readily addressable memory element). In C, a char needs to be able to hold at least 127 unique values. A char might be 64 bits. A 12 bit char might hold three characters of a string on 12 bit machine. > > least 7 bits with one allowed "non-unique" value (for example +0 and -0 > > allowed to have different bit patterns but compare equal, or a value can > be > > reserved for other purposes (signaling, I/O, etc)). That makes it a bit > > different from the other integral types which are required to behave in > > standard two's compliment fashion. Regardless of the number of bits or > > machine words used to store a char, the size of a char is 1 > > (sizeof(char)==1). If you want to know the number of "bits" in a char, > > there's always the CHAR_BIT macro. Whether char is unsigned or signed is > ^^^^^^ > NOT all compilers have that macro. All ISO compliant ones do. > An int needs to hold at least 65536 unique values (-32768..32767) (16 bits). > NOT NECESSARILY. > There HAVE been implementations of 12, 14, 15 bits. Also not ISO compliant. If you've got a 15 bit machine, an ISO C implementation will probably have 30 bit integers and 45 bit longs. > > I believe that it is required to be at least as large as a char. An > unsigned > > long needs to be able to hold the values between 0 and 65535. Arithmetic > > must behave as if the numbers are stored as two's compliment [ (x | -1) > == > > -1 , (x & -1) == x ] > > 2's complEment (we're here to "complete" them, not to praise them) works > very nicely, but C CAN be implemented with alternate encodings. Of course it can on a turing complete machine. But if there is and alternate encoding it MUST be hidden from the programmer (again under the standard). assert((x|-1) == -1) is not allowed to fail if x is an integral type. > A long needs to be at least 32 bits and must the at least as large as an > > int. > > NOT NECESSARILY. > 24 bits for both int and long might not be a good idea, but it is still > "valid" Again, this is not compliant with the standard for the C language and therefore not "valid." > The size of a pointer needs to be at least as large as an int. > IFF we assume that the number of possible ints is as large as an int > I assume you meant addresses where you said "ints"? Actually you may be correct on this one so long as pointer math works according to the standard. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Oct 17 16:03:00 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:03:00 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051017130233.V24559@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <4350C257.8080601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051017130233.V24559@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 10/17/05, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Eric J Korpela wrote: > > I'm not sure what you mean about CR-LF line endings being a problem for > C. > > For text files the character '\n' returns the appropriate ending, > whether it > > is CR-LF, CR, or LF. For binary files you shouldn't need to write > carriage > > returns. > > ... and transferring a text file from one OS to another, . . . > does CR mean \n, or is it being used for overstrike? > does LF mean \n, or is it being used for formatted tables? > does CRLF mean \n, or is it double spacing? I guess I forgot that one. In that case you do use binary mode and use '\n' for LF and '\r' for CR. But then again if you know what system you are transporting to you can just do something like char LF=10, CR=13; char CRLF[]={10,13}; > Integral types in C aren't difficult. They are just flexible, and because > > they are flexible, you need to know the rules. > > "rules"??????? > Who's rules? K&R very strenuously avoids defining the sizes. The ISO's rules, of course. The ISO standard is 16 years old now. > > A char needs to be able to hold at least 127 unique values which makes > it at > ONLY IF YOU'RE USING ASCII This has nothing to do with ASCII or anything else. One of the first things you learn in C is that 'char' isn't really short for character. 'char' is short for byte (aka the minimum readily addressable memory element). In C, a char needs to be able to hold at least 127 unique values. A char might be 64 bits. A 12 bit char might hold three characters of a string on 12 bit machine. > > least 7 bits with one allowed "non-unique" value (for example +0 and -0 > > allowed to have different bit patterns but compare equal, or a value can > be > > reserved for other purposes (signaling, I/O, etc)). That makes it a bit > > different from the other integral types which are required to behave in > > standard two's compliment fashion. Regardless of the number of bits or > > machine words used to store a char, the size of a char is 1 > > (sizeof(char)==1). If you want to know the number of "bits" in a char, > > there's always the CHAR_BIT macro. Whether char is unsigned or signed is > ^^^^^^ > NOT all compilers have that macro. All ISO compliant ones do. > An int needs to hold at least 65536 unique values (-32768..32767) (16 bits). > NOT NECESSARILY. > There HAVE been implementations of 12, 14, 15 bits. Also not ISO compliant. If you've got a 15 bit machine, an ISO C implementation will probably have 30 bit integers and 45 bit longs. > > I believe that it is required to be at least as large as a char. An > unsigned > > long needs to be able to hold the values between 0 and 65535. Arithmetic > > must behave as if the numbers are stored as two's compliment [ (x | -1) > == > > -1 , (x & -1) == x ] > > 2's complEment (we're here to "complete" them, not to praise them) works > very nicely, but C CAN be implemented with alternate encodings. Of course it can on a turing complete machine. But if there is and alternate encoding it MUST be hidden from the programmer (again under the standard). assert((x|-1) == -1) is not allowed to fail if x is an integral type. > A long needs to be at least 32 bits and must the at least as large as an > > int. > > NOT NECESSARILY. > 24 bits for both int and long might not be a good idea, but it is still > "valid" Again, this is not compliant with the standard for the C language and therefore not "valid." > The size of a pointer needs to be at least as large as an int. > IFF we assume that the number of possible ints is as large as an int > I assume you meant addresses where you said "ints"? Actually you may be correct on this one so long as pointer math works according to the standard. Eric From jhoger at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 16:03:51 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:03:51 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <17235.64164.519000.76863@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200510141937.j9EJbdFV009572@onyx.spiritone.com> <200510141347060339.1593099B@10.0.0.252> <1129573817.20565.36.camel@aragorn> <17235.64164.519000.76863@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 10/17/05, Paul Koning wrote: > > > That way you reduce the problem to a previously UNsolved problem. Now > you have to solve the futureproofing problem for a more complex > application (the emulator). > > paul > > > Emulators exist for most processors of interest. QEMU, Bochs, MESS, et al. And they are in C which I think is a good future-proofing language. At least QEMU and Bochs were designed for portability. QEMU at present has some weird dependencies on an older verison of gcc, but I think those are going to go away. So yeah, pick a portable language and write for portability. But it is quite likely that system dependecies will occur, so including a system emulator if one exists is a good idea. ISTR that whenever the government contracts to have software development they expect a machine with a complete development environment capable of building the software purchased. That might be a good idea too. -- John. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Oct 17 16:08:06 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:08:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Someone got their IBM 029 working In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > They were good for quick corrections. They also got a little use when the cards were used for inventory control. Sometimes a shipper would send a folded (gasp!) card with a shipment, and the card could be returned for RMA and other functions. A hand punch was all that was needed. I have a few cards from some of the big tube makers - RCA, Tung-Sol - and they would sometimes cram a folded card into a tube box, with the tube. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ken at seefried.com Mon Oct 17 16:19:54 2005 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:19:54 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 26, Issue 51 In-Reply-To: <200510172106.j9HL6Mon012113@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510172106.j9HL6Mon012113@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4354157A.80001@seefried.com> From: Roger Merchberger > Allowing the object to return to room temperature very, very > slowly is important. You should perceive an improvement in the sound when > you listen to the object which has been through the freezing process.... Ah...note the crux of the delusion. Anyone who "doesn't perceive an improvement" just didn't let it warm up slowly enough. Thusly, the scam is impervious to outside criticism. Ken From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 17 16:14:21 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:14:21 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4353FDAC.8030309@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200510141937.j9EJbdFV009572@onyx.spiritone.com> <200510141347060339.1593099B@10.0.0.252> <1129573817.20565.36.camel@aragorn> <4353FDAC.8030309@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051017161233.05640470@mail> Given the number of people who are maintaining software and hardware from 30 years ago (at least as a hobby) don't you think that someone will be maintaining something that can run an old version of 'gcc' and/or a version of 'gcc' that can compile code and emit target code on various platforms at least for another 30 years? - John From allain at panix.com Mon Oct 17 16:31:51 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:31:51 -0400 Subject: Gates Foundation Gives $15 Million to Computer History Museum References: <20051017144058.56425.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> <20051017124214.V24559@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <066e01c5d362$30a4f560$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> ...$15 Million to Computer History Museum > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051017/ap_on_hi_te/gates_computer_museum_gift As a percentage of Computer Museum budgetry it's probably 50% of all the money spent on Computer Museums. Ever. Worldwide. I was telling a small group Just yesterday that I thought there would be little business in computer museums until Bill Gates got old and reminiscent and only then his followers (millions of them) would consider going. I hope more that he Talks about computer museums than just finances them. John A. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 17 16:41:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > 30 years from now, some of those weird technologies may be quite normal. Or perhaps even old :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Oct 17 16:45:42 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:45:42 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 26, Issue 51 In-Reply-To: <4354157A.80001@seefried.com> References: <200510172106.j9HL6Mon012113@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200510172106.j9HL6Mon012113@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051017174054.053f00c8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ken Seefried may have mentioned these words: >From: Roger Merchberger > >>Allowing the object to return to room temperature very, very slowly is >>important. You should perceive an improvement in the sound when you >>listen to the object which has been through the freezing process.... > >Ah...note the crux of the delusion. Anyone who "doesn't perceive an >improvement" just didn't let it warm up slowly enough. Thusly, the scam >is impervious to outside criticism. Or - the rest of the system is substandard and needs upgrading, thereby creating another income stream for the scam. [[ You *could* have heard quite a difference if you had my MongoBlaster 5000GXT... ]] Very similar to "video-card-itis" nowadays - the issue isn't that it stopped working, it's that it doesn't play Doom 24... with a high enough frame rate. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 17 16:52:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510160259.TAA14746@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > >So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. > > > > > Forth. > > > > PILOT. > > > LOGO. > > Uncle. Actually, Logo is far more capable than Pilot. Pilot is just plain retarded. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Oct 17 17:13:21 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:13:21 -0400 Subject: Classic Turtles... (was: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: References: <200510160259.TAA14746@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051017180910.04fd8308@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > > > >So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. > > > > > > > Forth. > > > > > > PILOT. > > > > > LOGO. > > > > Uncle. > >Actually, Logo is far more capable than Pilot. Pilot is just plain >retarded. I never worked with Pilot, so I really can't say... but I once wrote a Logo interpreter *in Basic* on a Tandy CoCo2! I'd be willing to bet that I didn't have a full language implementation, but it had variables, functions, and grafix (penup, pendown, etc.). I doubt I could find the source anymore, but it worked pretty well for what it was... but boy, was it *slow*. That Turtle sure lived up to its name! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 17 17:25:01 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:25:01 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051017161233.05640470@mail> References: <200510141937.j9EJbdFV009572@onyx.spiritone.com> <200510141347060339.1593099B@10.0.0.252> <1129573817.20565.36.camel@aragorn> <4353FDAC.8030309@yahoo.co.uk> <6.2.3.4.2.20051017161233.05640470@mail> Message-ID: <435424BD.7010109@yahoo.co.uk> John Foust wrote: > Given the number of people who are maintaining software and > hardware from 30 years ago (at least as a hobby) don't you think > that someone will be maintaining something that can run > an old version of 'gcc' and/or a version of 'gcc' that > can compile code and emit target code on various platforms > at least for another 30 years? Almost certainly. Whether the company needing such services would make contact with hobbyists at the time who could solve their problem is another matter (most companies don't seem to with similar situations at present; they assume the technology / software / knowledge has gone and reinvent the wheel) In light of that, going for a language that stands more chance of being around seems like a better bet to me. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 17 17:26:07 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:26:07 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435424FF.4040305@yahoo.co.uk> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >>>>>>So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. >> >>>>>Forth. >> >>>>PILOT. >> >>>LOGO. >> >>Uncle. > > > Actually, Logo is far more capable than Pilot. Pilot is just plain > retarded. Yeah, Logo's more technicolour retarded, with a big flashing light on top :-) From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 17 17:32:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement In-Reply-To: <008401c5d2c4$c08805d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Oct 2005, Jay West wrote: > It was written... > > > > Sorry about the plug, Jay, but he asked! > > > > William Donzelli > > > > I had no problem with Williams plug :) > > > "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we > > are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and > > servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." Theodore > > Roosevelt (1858 - 1919) > > This however... was marginal ;) We can't have signatures when posting here? At any rate, I think it has an over-riding appropriateness in this day and age (enough so that I decided to reply just so it could be posted again ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 17 17:33:46 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:33:46 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <435424BD.7010109@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200510141937.j9EJbdFV009572@onyx.spiritone.com> <200510141347060339.1593099B@10.0.0.252> <1129573817.20565.36.camel@aragorn> <4353FDAC.8030309@yahoo.co.uk> <6.2.3.4.2.20051017161233.05640470@mail> <435424BD.7010109@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051017173125.043a7020@mail> At 05:25 PM 10/17/2005, Jules Richardson wrote: >Almost certainly. Whether the company needing such services would make contact with hobbyists at the time who could solve their problem is another matter (most companies don't seem to with similar situations at present; they assume the technology / software / knowledge has gone and reinvent the wheel) All of this haggling about 'int' size has been a reasonably solvable problem for 25+ years. The C standard is well-defined for many moments in the past, and good coding should always avoid the trouble spots nonetheless. - John From jhoger at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 17:37:53 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:37:53 -0700 Subject: Classic Turtles... (was: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051017180910.04fd8308@mail.30below.com> References: <200510160259.TAA14746@floodgap.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051017180910.04fd8308@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 10/17/05, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > but I once wrote a Logo interpreter *in Basic* on a Tandy CoCo2! I'd be > willing to bet that I didn't have a full language implementation, but it > had variables, functions, and grafix (penup, pendown, etc.). > By reputation Coco has an excellent Logo implementation, D.L. Logo. There was a recent post on the maltedmedia list stating that there is information in the manual which would permit D.L. Logo to interface with Coco 3 graphics codes under Level II. There is also cartridge based Color Logo which less interesting. I didn't know it when they let us play with Logo in elementary school, but I read that Logo's origins are in Lisp. -- John. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 17 17:35:22 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <43538036.2070206@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > Bert Thomas wrote: > > Doc Shipley wrote: > > >> Check this out: > >> > >> http://venhaus1.com/airsine.html > >> > >> US$700 power cable. I'm not kidding. > > > > > > What kind of people believe in this crap? > > Do they replace the wiring in their house as well to prevent > > micro-movements of the wires? > > And after that the cable that delivers electricity to their house? > > Or are they generating their own "clean" current with special generators > > wounded with golden wires? > > Hmmm, with some fantansy I can create a whole new market. > > Hmmm. Wanna incorporate? I like the way you think. Count me in! I've got some dollars I can invest ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 17 17:38:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another strange Apple artifact In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Mike Maginnis wrote: > On 10/16/05, Gil Carrick wrote: > > Apple /// Slot Machine > > Front Glass Panel > > > > In the early 80s some Las Vegas slots paid a top prize of an Apple III > > System. > > No kidding! > > Here is a glass panel from one of them > > It measures about 23 X 11 > > It has a nice baroque gold frame > > A fantastic Apple artifact. Painted on glass! > > > > EbAY ITEM # 2757124365 > > > > Gil > > He's had that item up for a long time now (I'm thinking years, > here...). That seller always has a great "pile" to pick through, but > his prices are generally too high for my tastes. It's worth adding that the seller (John) is a terrifically fantastic guy and is very nice to his customers. I've dealt with him on a few occasions and he's always been just a pleasure to deal with. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 17 17:41:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM System/34 with diskettes & documentation available in Iowa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Mike Maginnis wrote: > Apparently, someone does. There's one over on eBay (8709130357) with > a $100 opening bid placed on it, 4+ days left... Does it come with the broad? Also, I like the period appropriate fake wood paneling :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jhoger at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 17:51:51 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:51:51 -0700 Subject: Gates Foundation Gives $15 Million to Computer History Museum In-Reply-To: <066e01c5d362$30a4f560$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <20051017144058.56425.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> <20051017124214.V24559@shell.lmi.net> <066e01c5d362$30a4f560$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On 10/17/05, John Allain wrote: > > ...$15 Million to Computer History Museum > > > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051017/ap_on_hi_te/gates_computer_museum_gift > > As a percentage of Computer Museum budgetry it's probably 50% of all the > money spent on Computer Museums. Ever. Worldwide. > Since Microsoft owns some of the important bits in computing history, it would be nice if they would allow us all to make copies of the old ROMs. Someone on the Model 100 list asked about free licensing for the TRS-80 Model 100 ROM, and Microsoft legal said no since code from it may still be used in existing products. We all knew it... Windows is so slow because so much of it is 8085 code run in an emulator subsystem... As it is our Remem memory upgrade is going to require a manual step from the user to rip and install their ROMs. -- John. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 17:59:19 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:59:19 +1300 Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator In-Reply-To: <45109784514bda.4514bda4510978@direcway.com> References: <45109784514bda.4514bda4510978@direcway.com> Message-ID: On 10/18/05, charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: > The 40-pin cable will be, of course, trivial to make IF the pinouts are the same on both ends. It is a straight-through cable. Rather than _make_ the cable, you can probably score a DEC cable of an appropriate length that's shielded and more durable than a standard ribbon cable. DEC used lots of 40-pin cables over 2m in length; they shouldn't be hard to find from a DEC reseller. If I had a better net connection, I'd give you some sample part numbers to search on, but they'll be something like a BC08-10. Good luck, -ethan From gilcarrick at comcast.net Mon Oct 17 18:08:18 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:08:18 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200510172318.j9HNIDC8009728@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Actually, Logo is far more capable than Pilot. Pilot is just > plain retarded. Let's be fair. PILOT was never intended as a general purpose language. It was intended from the get-go purely for CAI. Things were drafted on later as people saw the need. Gil ... > Sellam Ismail Vintage ... From gilcarrick at comcast.net Mon Oct 17 18:12:13 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:12:13 -0500 Subject: IBM System/34 with diskettes & documentation available in Iowa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200510172322.j9HNM7kU009835@keith.ezwind.net> ... > > Apparently, someone does. There's one over on eBay > (8709130357) with > > a $100 opening bid placed on it, 4+ days left... > > Does it come with the broad? > > Also, I like the period appropriate fake wood paneling :) I suspect the picture itself is period, meaning that broad is now, what, 50? Gil From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 17 18:19:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Turtles... (was: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051017180910.04fd8308@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I never worked with Pilot, so I really can't say... Wikipedia proves useful for showing a PILOT example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PILOT_programming_language > but I once wrote a Logo interpreter *in Basic* on a Tandy CoCo2! I'd be > willing to bet that I didn't have a full language implementation, but it > had variables, functions, and grafix (penup, pendown, etc.). I think we did Logo class assignments in my 9th grade computer class. It had recursion at least and one could actually develop applications in it, but it was still intended mostly as a learning environment. Logo is fun! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 17 18:22:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510172318.j9HNIDC8009728@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Gil Carrick wrote: > > Actually, Logo is far more capable than Pilot. Pilot is just > > plain retarded. > > Let's be fair. PILOT was never intended as a general purpose language. It > was intended from the get-go purely for CAI. Things were drafted on later as > people saw the need. Eh. Where was PILOT actually used? It just seems so damn icky to me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Mon Oct 17 18:27:02 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:27:02 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Message Board Message-ID: Hey everyone, I thought I'd spam the lists again with a link to my PDP-11 board which hasn't had much traffic as of late, in case any of you DECies didn't know about it. http://pdpusers.dyndns.org Always, if you have any suggestions, feel free to email me or drop me a personal message on the board. Thanks! Julian From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Oct 17 18:41:50 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:41:50 -0500 Subject: Need help with a BA11-K power supply Message-ID: Well, I decided to take another crack at getting my 11/34 system working again. Currently I've still got some problems with it - firstly though, the power supply. It blew when I hooked one of the front panel switches up to it, though nothing seemed to be wrong as far as what I could tell from all the diagrams. Right now the disassembled BA11-K box is sitting in my living room taking up space. Now, when the PSU blew, I was able to notice that the spark came from what LOOKED like the portion that the power cord comes from.I looked at the traces under a magnifying glass, and couldn't see anything wrong, and I can't smell anything. I checked all the fuses, those seem to be sound. In any case, when hooked up to nothing, the fans don't even kick on. Can anyone give me a test process I can go through to diagnose the problem, or would anyone here be willing to look at the power supply for me if I shipped it to them? As it is, I have this dead machine doing nothing and my girlfriend keeps pestering me about it every time she comes over because it doesn't work. In any case, I'd appreciate any help that could be given to me! Thanks! Julian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 17 18:08:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:08:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <435373F3.2040801@brothom.nl> from "Bert Thomas" at Oct 17, 5 10:50:43 am Message-ID: > What kind of people believe in this crap? Oh don't get me started on the audiophools :-) > Do they replace the wiring in their house as well to prevent > micro-movements of the wires? One of my favourites is 'monocrystaline copper cable' Since any bending of said cable is going to disrupt the crystal latice, presumably it has to come pre-shaped to fit thr room, right? There are some things that clearly do make a difference to the sound, for good, scientific, reasons. Things like correct head alingment and bias of an anlogue tape recorder. No corrosion on the connectors. The design of the filter after the DAC in a digital system (some are downright terrible). And there are things that make me ROFLMAO. Things like cutting a corner off the amplifier frontpanel (an odd number of corners sounds better). Having an odd number of grounding clips on the carpet (so that the 'bad charge' has nmore to flow away down and less to flow back up). Sticking electret foils on the mains plugs. Yes, I've seen all of these and more... I rememebr once seeing inside a so-called top-end CD player. It contained the cheapest plastic Philips CD mechanism, and the Philips chipset. Alas the PCB ssemed to have been laid out by an idiot. Decoupling capacitors are far too far away from the ICs. Capacitors that the Philips datasheet said had to be SMD and mounted under the DIL-packaged chip were conventional components a good centimetre from the pin. And so on.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 17 18:48:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:48:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Logic Analyzer Recommendations In-Reply-To: from "Julian Wolfe" at Oct 17, 5 03:19:35 pm Message-ID: > > For those of us who are semi electronically inept (i.e. can replace > components and burn eeproms, but not much else) what is a logic analyzer, > what is it used for, and what situatios would require tyou to have one? (or > when would it be helpful?) A logic analyser is basically an oscilloscope for digital signals. They have a number of input chanels (anything from 3 to over 100) that you connect to various points of the device under test. The logic state of all those points is recorded every so often (say every 50 ns), the time being selectable of course. You can then display those recorded states as a timing diagram, and sometimes as a table of values (you 'tell' the analyser that channels 0-15 are to be displayed as a 4 digit hex number, that channels 16 to 23 as a 2 digit hex number, etc). Some analysers even let you load a disassembler program for a particular processor at which point you can display the result as a dissassembly listing [1] You can set the analyser to trigger on a particular combination of inputs (that's the simplest case, many analysers have very complex trigger modes) and then either start recording when you get the trigger, stop recording when you get the trigger, or carry one recording for about half the analysers memory size on the trigger (so the trigger event occurs aproximately in the middle of the data that's been recorded). As to why you'd want one, well, if you have a complex digital circuit, and you need to see what's going on (either because you've just designed it and need to find out what mistake you've made this time, or because it's stopped working), a logic analyser will let you look at all the signals in said circuit at once and display the relationship between them. [1] Personally, I think this is a somewhat useless feature. Of much more use is the ability to link the analyser to a computer (e.g. via GPIB, RS232 or these days I guess USB) and transfer the recorded data. Then you can attack it with any program you like. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 17 18:30:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:30:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator In-Reply-To: <45109784514bda.4514bda4510978@direcway.com> from "charlesmorris@direcway.com" at Oct 17, 5 01:21:23 pm Message-ID: > > I did find the tech manuals (from classiccmp's mirror of bitsavers). > > Tony, IIRC it says the early drives *did not* have brushes and later > model ones were equipped with them? Incidentally this drive started life That's the opposite to what I've seen and heard. The RL01's in my MINC are the earliest version, the drive logic board does not have the RL01/RL02 jumper, it's strictly RL01 only. That drive has the brushes. I've mever seen an RL02 with brushes. > as an RL01 but also has a DEC sticker "changed to RL02 by PCO" just to > further confuse things. On a late-design RL01, that's a fairly easy change to make (a few links on the boards, new heards, and maybe a new spindle if the older, less accurate, one is fitted). > Do you still recommend I not install them? I think that airflow and I would not fit the brushes. > centrifugal force might be the only safe way to remove particles rather > than "grinding" them across the disk platter surface with a brush, no >matter how lightly... > > I think there may also be a "Fault" if the brushes are not parked? I don't know if there was a logic change (maybe a different state machine ROM or something), but I do know you can get a working RL02 without the brush mechanism. I would assume your drive will work without it, at least until you prove otherwise ;-) > > Ethan, thanks for the suggestion about using a 40 pin > double-ended-Berg cable from inside the drive. I haven't taken the > electronics cover off yet. I only have one 8/A and one RL02 so once > mounted in the rack cabinet they'll stay there, connected to each > other. The 40-pin cable will be, of course, trivial to make IF the > pinouts are the same on both ends. The pinouts are the same at each end... But remmber if you do this you'll need to do something about termination. Either kluge a resistor network into another connector at the drive end of the cable, or use one of the connectors on the back of the drive with a real DEC terminator (if you can get one). When you open up the drive you'll see a short 40 way ribbon cable with 3 Berg connectors on it. One plugs into the drive logic PCB, on the bottom of the cover. The other 2 plug into the back of the rear panel cable connectors. You could make a longer cable with 2 conenctors near one end (drive logic PCB and one of the rear conenctors) and a single connector at the other end for the controller. Then just plug a terminator into the rear connector of the drive. One other minor caveat. The drive supplies 5V power on one of the corner pins (check the printest) of the connector to power the terminator. This is deliberately not connected between the drives (connecting PSUs in parallel is generally a bad idea). I don't think it's connected anywhere on the contoller board, but you might want to check the printset and remove the offiending pin from the controller-end Berg connector if necessary when making the cable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 17 18:37:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:37:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <20051017125826.F24559@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 17, 5 01:01:24 pm Message-ID: > > > Did it, they smash far better, louder too! (Those pesky AOL CDs). > > Can't say that they play better though. > > I made a handle, and tried using them as pizza cutters. No good. > There is NO known use for them! Poor quality optical diffraction gratings? -tony From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Oct 17 19:02:59 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:02:59 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" References: <435373F3.2040801@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <17236.15283.46000.357368@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: Tony> Oh don't get me started on the audiophools :-) Tony> ...And there are things that make me ROFLMAO. ... How about a gold plated mains plug, for $140? I saw one in a catalog last week... paul From gilcarrick at comcast.net Mon Oct 17 19:06:00 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:06:00 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200510180015.j9I0FuGK010926@keith.ezwind.net> At one point at Four-Phase Systems I wrote a PILOT system. It was not compiled, just interpreted. It was used in early research in building Computer Assisted Instruction. The main purpose was to automate the development of courseware. It has been 25 years or so, but I seem to recall the ability to create multiple choice questions. You could associate a branch with each wrong answer, so a good course developer could tell what your error in understanding was and lead you back to the right path. It never made product status. Education didn't have the money for those systems anyway. It was just something for me to do between meetings. There were other smaller systems that supported it, I think, but I am not specifically aware of any. Gil ... > Eh. Where was PILOT actually used? It just seems so damn icky to me. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail From drb at msu.edu Mon Oct 17 19:10:29 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:10:29 -0400 Subject: WTB: Telebit trailblazers Message-ID: <200510180010.j9I0ATix029917@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Anyone have a pair of Telebit Trailblazer modems they'd be willing to part with? Looking to re-create the old PEP over old tin-cans and string demo for a presentation. T2SAA (TB+) units seem to be fairly common, but I can't find anyone advertising the original model. De From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 17 19:22:10 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PILOT was Re: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Oct 17, 5 04:22:53 pm" Message-ID: <200510180022.RAA10220@floodgap.com> > > > Actually, Logo is far more capable than Pilot. Pilot is just > > > plain retarded. > > > > Let's be fair. PILOT was never intended as a general purpose language. It > > was intended from the get-go purely for CAI. Things were drafted on later as > > people saw the need. > > Eh. Where was PILOT actually used? It just seems so damn icky to me. Actually, I was only half-joking. There are some properties of PILOT that make it useful for task wizards and the like, with suitable extensions. It's a strange language, but I've never found it ill-conceived, per se. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: Ferris Bueller's E-mail Signature ------------------------------ From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Oct 17 19:31:11 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:31:11 -0500 Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I know for a fact that there is no issue with a lack of brushes. I have an original factory RL02, and an RL02 that was converted at the factory from an RL01, and neither of these units contain brushes. It is my opinion from what I've looked at that the brushes were removed from later revisions of the drive (and even possibly by field service) because they would damage the disk surface. If you want to keep your disk cartriges clean, change your absolute filter and clean the head, and don't switch disk carts too often. My main system RL02 has been running flawlessly with the same disk pack 24/7 for 2 years now, and I haven't even changed the absolute filter yet. To clarify the issue of the FAULT light being on, the drive WILL fault if not connected to a controller. I'm 100% sure of that. Does the RL8A controller specify a special RL8A cable in the package descriptions listed in the RL01/02 manual? From what I remember, they only vary in length, not style. There's only berg-to-RL02 and RL02 to RL02 cables of different lengths. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 6:30 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Re: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator > > I did find the tech manuals (from classiccmp's mirror of bitsavers). > > Tony, IIRC it says the early drives *did not* have brushes and later > model ones were equipped with them? Incidentally this drive started > life That's the opposite to what I've seen and heard. The RL01's in my MINC are the earliest version, the drive logic board does not have the RL01/RL02 jumper, it's strictly RL01 only. That drive has the brushes. I've mever seen an RL02 with brushes. > as an RL01 but also has a DEC sticker "changed to RL02 by PCO" just to > further confuse things. On a late-design RL01, that's a fairly easy change to make (a few links on the boards, new heards, and maybe a new spindle if the older, less accurate, one is fitted). > Do you still recommend I not install them? I think that airflow and I would not fit the brushes. > centrifugal force might be the only safe way to remove particles >rather than "grinding" them across the disk platter surface with a >brush, no matter how lightly... > > I think there may also be a "Fault" if the brushes are not parked? I don't know if there was a logic change (maybe a different state machine ROM or something), but I do know you can get a working RL02 without the brush mechanism. I would assume your drive will work without it, at least until you prove otherwise ;-) > > Ethan, thanks for the suggestion about using a 40 pin > double-ended-Berg cable from inside the drive. I haven't taken the > electronics cover off yet. I only have one 8/A and one RL02 so once > mounted in the rack cabinet they'll stay there, connected to each > other. The 40-pin cable will be, of course, trivial to make IF the > pinouts are the same on both ends. The pinouts are the same at each end... But remmber if you do this you'll need to do something about termination. Either kluge a resistor network into another connector at the drive end of the cable, or use one of the connectors on the back of the drive with a real DEC terminator (if you can get one). When you open up the drive you'll see a short 40 way ribbon cable with 3 Berg connectors on it. One plugs into the drive logic PCB, on the bottom of the cover. The other 2 plug into the back of the rear panel cable connectors. You could make a longer cable with 2 conenctors near one end (drive logic PCB and one of the rear conenctors) and a single connector at the other end for the controller. Then just plug a terminator into the rear connector of the drive. One other minor caveat. The drive supplies 5V power on one of the corner pins (check the printest) of the connector to power the terminator. This is deliberately not connected between the drives (connecting PSUs in parallel is generally a bad idea). I don't think it's connected anywhere on the contoller board, but you might want to check the printset and remove the offiending pin from the controller-end Berg connector if necessary when making the cable. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 17 19:34:45 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: References: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <4350C257.8080601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051017130233.V24559@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20051017173050.H39125@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Eric J Korpela wrote: > > "rules"??????? > > Who's rules? K&R very strenuously avoids defining the sizes. > The ISO's rules, of course. The ISO standard is 16 years old now. Oh. OK. The "NEW" version of C (v K&R) Actually, I AGREE with those size recommendations. I LIKE having 8 bit chars, 16 bit ints, 32 bit longs; but there are some bizarre vintage implementations out there, and on the old stuff, you can not count on a specific size. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 17 19:40:15 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:40:15 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510180022.RAA10220@floodgap.com> References: <200510180022.RAA10220@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200510171740150565.25DB8965@10.0.0.252> One thing that everyone seems to assume is that in 30 years, the general-purpose personal computer will still be around as such. I'm not so certain of this. For those with the current issue of EETimes, take a look at the "Teardown" feature--it's the anatomy of the new Tiger Electronics handheld game box. A 400 MHz ARM processor, many megabytes of flash, USB, Nvidia graphics chip, GPS, Bluetooth and a whole bunch of other stuff all packed into a battery-powered hand-held TOY. It might be that decades from now, we have purpose-built tools with computers buried in their innards (such as the PIC in my trackball) and nary a general-purpose user-programmable PC anywhere. After all, it's a good thing from a marketing standpoint if the user of a system has to buy the programming. Look at the hoops you'd have to jump through to write a new game for your Xbox... Cheers, Chuck From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 17 19:43:36 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:43:36 -0700 Subject: OFHC Copper, was Re: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" References: <200510172106.j9HL6Mol012113@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43544538.3C2C799F@rain.org> Pet peeve ... what does OFHC copper have to do with was the subject line????????????? ISTR that OFHC copper had some benefits for certain copper plating baths that resulted in better ductility with the plated copper. A quick google search indicated that OFHC copper has slightly better purity than standard copper (99.00% vs 99.95%.) From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Oct 17 20:44:18 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:44:18 Subject: Logic Analyzer Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051017204418.0fdf0aa2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:48 AM 10/18/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> For those of us who are semi electronically inept (i.e. can replace >> components and burn eeproms, but not much else) what is a logic analyzer, >> what is it used for, and what situatios would require tyou to have one? (or >> when would it be helpful?) > >A logic analyser is basically an oscilloscope for digital signals. > >They have a number of input chanels (anything from 3 to over 100) that >you connect to various points of the device under test. The logic state >of all those points is recorded every so often (say every 50 ns), the >time being selectable of course. Or the sample time can be based on other signals such as the phase of a clock signal. That's REAL useful for picking data or address off of a multiplexed bus. Many LAs also have a feature to look for and display glitches (fast narrow pulses that shouldn't be there) on the signal lines. That can be a real life saver as well. Joe You can then display those recorded >states as a timing diagram, and sometimes as a table of values (you >'tell' the analyser that channels 0-15 are to be displayed as a 4 digit >hex number, that channels 16 to 23 as a 2 digit hex number, etc). Some >analysers even let you load a disassembler program for a particular >processor at which point you can display the result as a dissassembly >listing [1] > >You can set the analyser to trigger on a particular combination of inputs >(that's the simplest case, many analysers have very complex trigger >modes) and then either start recording when you get the trigger, stop >recording when you get the trigger, or carry one recording for about half >the analysers memory size on the trigger (so the trigger event occurs >aproximately in the middle of the data that's been recorded). > >As to why you'd want one, well, if you have a complex digital circuit, >and you need to see what's going on (either because you've just designed >it and need to find out what mistake you've made this time, or because >it's stopped working), a logic analyser will let you look at all the >signals in said circuit at once and display the relationship between >them. > >[1] Personally, I think this is a somewhat useless feature. Of much more >use is the ability to link the analyser to a computer (e.g. via GPIB, >RS232 or these days I guess USB) and transfer the recorded data. Then you >can attack it with any program you like. > >-tony > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 17 19:47:41 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:47:41 -0600 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <435424FF.4040305@yahoo.co.uk> References: <435424FF.4040305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4354462D.7020606@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Yeah, Logo's more technicolour retarded, with a big flashing light on > top :-) Now what about LEGO ... I Know they have something computer controled with the stupid high-priced building blocks? From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Oct 17 20:10:00 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 02:10:00 +0100 Subject: Another strange Apple artifact In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43544B68.3060302@gjcp.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>>In the early 80s some Las Vegas slots paid a top prize of an Apple III >>>System. Was that really true? And if it is, how on earth did it work? Did you win a token or something? Gordon. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Oct 17 20:22:32 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:22:32 -0700 Subject: Another strange Apple artifact In-Reply-To: <43544B68.3060302@gjcp.net> References: <43544B68.3060302@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43544E58.5020302@msm.umr.edu> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >>>> In the early 80s some Las Vegas slots paid a top prize of an Apple III >>>> System. >>> > > Was that really true? And if it is, how on earth did it work? Did > you win a token or something? > > Gordon. > > Most machines that pay over 200 to 500 $ or tokens require that the attendant pay out the jackpot, so you'd be accompanied to the bank, and probably given a choice of the computer or the $$, which is how most promotions work. If you turned down the computer, then they'ed give the coupon to someone else. From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Oct 17 20:31:09 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:31:09 -0500 Subject: Need help with a BA11-K power supply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051017203016.0a831e98@localhost> FYI I have a front panel for an 11/34. At 06:41 PM 10/17/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Well, I decided to take another crack at getting my 11/34 system working >again. Currently I've still got some problems with it - firstly though, the >power supply. It blew when I hooked one of the front panel switches up to >it, though nothing seemed to be wrong as far as what I could tell from all >the diagrams. > >Right now the disassembled BA11-K box is sitting in my living room taking up >space. Now, when the PSU blew, I was able to notice that the spark came >from what LOOKED like the portion that the power cord comes from.I looked at >the traces under a magnifying glass, and couldn't see anything wrong, and I >can't smell anything. I checked all the fuses, those seem to be sound. > >In any case, when hooked up to nothing, the fans don't even kick on. > >Can anyone give me a test process I can go through to diagnose the problem, >or would anyone here be willing to look at the power supply for me if I >shipped it to them? > >As it is, I have this dead machine doing nothing and my girlfriend keeps >pestering me about it every time she comes over because it doesn't work. > >In any case, I'd appreciate any help that could be given to me! > >Thanks! >Julian [Huh?] Notice in health food shop window: CLOSED DUE TO ILLNESS --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Oct 17 21:00:50 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:00:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4354462D.7020606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Now what about LEGO ... I Know they have something computer controled > with the stupid high-priced building blocks? Real nerds use Fischer-Technik. Real real nerds have grey and red colored Fischer-Technik. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From brother_cadfael at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 18 00:14:10 2005 From: brother_cadfael at sbcglobal.net (Brian H.) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM System/34 with diskettes & documentation available in Iowa Message-ID: <20051018051411.33415.qmail@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Lets see... The wall calendar has May 31st as being Tuesday, possible years 1982, 1993, 1999 & 2004 Did 'Express Mail' exist/have that logo in '82? Brian >> Does it come with the broad? >> >> Also, I like the period appropriate fake wood paneling :) > I> suspect the picture itself is period, meaning that broad is now, what, 50? > >Gil From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Mon Oct 17 13:39:12 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:39:12 -0400 Subject: A BDU's is born every minute ... In-Reply-To: <200510171020310872.2448F630@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510171848.j9HImqYx004296@keith.ezwind.net> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:20:31 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Mark my words--the audiophile fringe will be dunking CD's in liquid N2 any >day now... We had a customer bring in a system several YEARS ago with CD drive that would not open. With the aid of a paperclip and a prybar, I opened up the drive to fine a shattered CD inside. I took one look at it and asked what had happened in shock, it was shattered in a hundred pieces. The red faced customer sputtered something about cooling the disk so the game would load faster ???? I cut him off short when I pointed at the remains of the shattered game disk still sitting in drive, now most likely a cupholder, with a comment about the destruction he caused. His wanted to know if he could get a replacement CD or did he have to purchase a new one.... The thrills of dealing with Brain Dead Users. This could have been Darwin Award, he used LOX, because he did not have access to nitrogen. I asked why not CO2, he replied it was not cold enough to work, he had hoped LOX was cold enough ..... It takes all kinds .... Bob From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Oct 17 13:39:18 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:39:18 -0400 Subject: Cromemco C-10 Manuals Message-ID: <01C5D329.AA682900@MSE_D03> Cleaning out the library; before they go into the dumpster, anybody need/want some manuals for the Cromemco C-10 desktop computer? C-10 Personal Computer User's Manual Structured Basic Language Reference Manual WriteMaster Word processing Systems PlanMaster Financial Planning Package Reply off-list pls, mike (Toronto) From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Oct 17 13:39:33 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:39:33 -0400 Subject: Toshiba T100 & T300 Manuals Message-ID: <01C5D329.AB5AC660@MSE_D03> Cleaning out the library; before they go into the dumpster, anybody need/want some manuals for the Toshiba T100 & T300? T100 Personal Computer Owner's Manual T100 Personal Computer Programmer's Reference manual (CP/M & T-Basic) T300 Personal Computer Owner's Manual (incl. Diagnostics disk) T300 MS-DOS Reference Manual T300 T-Basic16 Reference Manual 5 1/2 x 8 1/2, in 3 ring binders. Reply off-list pls, mike (Toronto) From fjahlin at en.com Mon Oct 17 16:33:50 2005 From: fjahlin at en.com (Frank Ahlin) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:33:50 -0400 Subject: STDBUS Manuals - 7303 kb/display Message-ID: <000601c5d362$77f30c40$1345fea9@frank1> Sorry to bother you Everett. I saw you message on-line re: the manual for the Pro Log 7303 Keyboard/Display card. I too have been looking for this document. If you would, please let me know if I can still get a copy from you. Thanks, Frank Ahlin From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Mon Oct 17 18:26:34 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:26:34 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Message Board Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F104D2818@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Hey everyone, I thought I'd spam the lists again with a link to my PDP-11 board which hasn't had much traffic as of late, in case any of you DECies didn't know about it. http://pdpusers.dyndns.org Always, if you have any suggestions, feel free to email me or drop me a personal message on the board. Thanks! Julian From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Mon Oct 17 22:04:27 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:04:27 -0400 Subject: Someone got their IBM 029 working In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200510180314.j9I3E7uC013841@keith.ezwind.net> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:08:06 -0400 (EDT), William Donzelli wrote: >> They were good for quick corrections. >They also got a little use when the cards were used for inventory >control. Sometimes a shipper would send a folded (gasp!) card with a >shipment, and the card could be returned for RMA and other functions. A >hand punch was all that was needed. >I have a few cards from some of the big tube makers - RCA, Tung-Sol - and >they would sometimes cram a folded card into a tube box, with the tube. >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org I have several Zenith cards, they are perforated so 1/3 could be removed for the customer record and the 2/3 length card remaining could be sent in as a reorder card. They had to have some funky reader to read the short cards. Bob From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Mon Oct 17 22:07:44 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 23:07:44 -0400 Subject: IBM System/34 with diskettes & documentation available in Iowa In-Reply-To: <200510172322.j9HNM7kU009835@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200510180317.j9I3HOxN013891@keith.ezwind.net> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:12:13 -0500, Gil Carrick wrote: >... >> > Apparently, someone does. There's one over on eBay >> (8709130357) with >> > a $100 opening bid placed on it, 4+ days left... >> >> Does it come with the broad? >> >> Also, I like the period appropriate fake wood paneling :) >I suspect the picture itself is period, meaning that broad is now, what, 50? >Gil That just about the right age for some of us :) Bob From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Mon Oct 17 22:24:29 2005 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:24:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <200510180324.j9I3OTFj013996@keith.ezwind.net> Dear Community, Does anybody know anything about this Teletype machine: http://ees2cy.engr.ccny.cuny.edu/wwwa/web/hardware/tty/ I can't even figure out what model it is. thanks, -kurt From caa007216 at ono.com Tue Oct 18 01:47:00 2005 From: caa007216 at ono.com (SP) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:47:00 +0200 Subject: Asunto: Toshiba T100 & T300 Manuals In-Reply-To: <01C5D329.AB5AC660@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <42B2C40C00047D96@resmta01.ono.com> Same like the other manuals, and more interesting for me because I own one Toshiba T100 without peripherals. Do you know some place where I could obtain complements for this system ? Regards Sergio >-- Mensaje original -- >From: M H Stein >To: "'cctech at classiccmp.org'" >Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:39:33 -0400 >Cc: >Subject: Toshiba T100 & T300 Manuals >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >Cleaning out the library; before they go into the dumpster, >anybody need/want some manuals for the Toshiba >T100 & T300? > >T100 Personal Computer Owner's Manual >T100 Personal Computer Programmer's Reference manual > (CP/M & T-Basic) > >T300 Personal Computer Owner's Manual (incl. Diagnostics disk) >T300 MS-DOS Reference Manual >T300 T-Basic16 Reference Manual > >5 1/2 x 8 1/2, in 3 ring binders. > >Reply off-list pls, > >mike (Toronto) > From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 18 01:59:01 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 02:59:01 -0400 Subject: A BDU's is born every minute ... References: <200510171848.j9HImqYx004296@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <018001c5d3b1$6c3ee320$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Bradlee" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:39 PM Subject: A BDU's is born every minute ... > On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:20:31 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > >Mark my words--the audiophile fringe will be dunking CD's in liquid N2 any > >day now... > > We had a customer bring in a system several YEARS ago with CD drive > that would not open. > > With the aid of a paperclip and a prybar, I opened up the drive to fine a > shattered CD inside. I took one look at it and asked what had happened > in shock, it was shattered in a hundred pieces. > > The red faced customer sputtered something about cooling the disk so the game > would load faster ???? I cut him off short when I pointed at the remains of the > shattered game disk still sitting in drive, now most likely a cupholder, with a > comment about the destruction he caused. > > His wanted to know if he could get a replacement CD or did he have to purchase > a new one.... The thrills of dealing with Brain Dead Users. > > This could have been Darwin Award, he used LOX, because he did not have > access to nitrogen. I asked why not CO2, he replied it was not cold enough to > work, he had hoped LOX was cold enough ..... > > It takes all kinds .... > > Bob > > LOX + porous carbon based material = explosive! Why do some people believe everything a self described expert tells them? From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Tue Oct 18 02:08:20 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:08:20 +1300 Subject: (no subject) References: <200510180324.j9I3OTFj013996@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <084901c5d3b2$b874f800$7900a8c0@athlon1200> It's a morse perforator. DaveB, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 4:24 PM Subject: (no subject) > Dear Community, > > Does anybody know anything about this Teletype machine: > > http://ees2cy.engr.ccny.cuny.edu/wwwa/web/hardware/tty/ > > I can't even figure out what model it is. thanks, -kurt > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.2/137 - Release Date: > 16/10/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.2/137 - Release Date: 16/10/2005 From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Tue Oct 18 03:44:16 2005 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:44:16 +0200 Subject: Compute magazine (retry) Message-ID: <4354B5E0.5070602@ais.fraunhofer.de> Somewhere my last posting didn't find its way to the list, although there were some downloads of the files below. Retry (with few typo corrections):: Hi, for quite some time I have some magazines of COMPUTE ("Club Of Microprocessor Programmers, Users and Technical Experts"), a newsletter sponsored by National Semiconductor, lying around which I consider worthwhile to be conserved for the past. The date I am talking about is around 1975..1977. Some questions: 1. I have only some issues, namely V2N7...V2N12, V3N4...V3N7. Does anyone have other issues (and is willing to scan or copy those)? I'd be very interested in this epoch. 2. Scanning: You find a sample issue at http://www.ais.fraunhofer.de/~veit/v2n7.pdf (2MB). This was scanned B&W 400dpi, stored as TIF and converted with Acrobat. My problem is that even with this some listing pages are barely readable, see page 5 for example. This is probably because of lack of contrast; the magazine is printed on light brown paper with dark brown text; other issues use blue or green text color which is probably even less readable in a scan. If one scans in color with 600dpi (as in sample http://www.ais.fraunhofer.de/~veit/3x.pdf, 2MB) this will result in much larger files - the raw TIF is 95MB on my disk, which is not a diskspace issue for me, but for downloaders; expect a single issue to be 40MB and more in size. Do the "professional scanners" here, like Al, have a recommendation for resolving this? Regards Holger From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Oct 18 05:05:51 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:05:51 +0100 Subject: Looking for RL02 cable and terminator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4354C8FF.8010909@gjcp.net> > If you want to keep your disk cartriges clean, change your absolute filter > and clean the head, and don't switch disk carts too often. My main system > RL02 has been running flawlessly with the same disk pack 24/7 for 2 years > now, and I haven't even changed the absolute filter yet. On that note, is there a way to tell when the filter is getting "done"? I don't want to risk damaging my drives, but then I don't want to use up my meagre supply of spare filters too... Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Oct 18 05:07:08 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:07:08 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051017173050.H39125@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <4350C257.8080601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051017130233.V24559@shell.lmi.net> <20051017173050.H39125@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4354C94C.2030907@gjcp.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Eric J Korpela wrote: > >>>"rules"??????? >>>Who's rules? K&R very strenuously avoids defining the sizes. >> >>The ISO's rules, of course. The ISO standard is 16 years old now. > > > Oh. OK. The "NEW" version of C (v K&R) > > > Actually, I AGREE with those size recommendations. > > I LIKE having 8 bit chars, 16 bit ints, 32 bit longs; > but there are some bizarre vintage implementations out there, > and on the old stuff, you can not count on a specific size. But only because the hardware you're used to using C on suits these sizes. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Oct 18 05:33:04 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:33:04 +0100 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4354CF60.4090401@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>What kind of people believe in this crap? > > > Oh don't get me started on the audiophools :-) > > >>Do they replace the wiring in their house as well to prevent >>micro-movements of the wires? > > > One of my favourites is 'monocrystaline copper cable' Since any bending > of said cable is going to disrupt the crystal latice, presumably it has > to come pre-shaped to fit thr room, right? Well - I suppose if you can find someone to sell it to the audiophiles, I connect up their speakers with copper brake pipe mounted on ceramic insulators. Just think of it - never mind 79-strand, this cable is *one big thick strand*! None of that interference caused by the surfaces of the strands rubbing against each other! And of course, it's a tube, to make the most of the "skin effect" to give you clearer high frequencies... Gordon. From gstreet at indy.net Tue Oct 18 07:00:37 2005 From: gstreet at indy.net (Robert Greenstreet) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:00:37 -0500 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <200510141644.j9EGinSw057191@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20051018070037.00df0a30@pop.onemain.com> > > >Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:18:11 +0100 >From: Bert Thomas >Subject: Re: Releasing OS/2 > > >Cini, Richard wrote: >> >> Bill Gates continues, "It's all very ironic, because it's most >> of the OS/2 code is still our code and we're still selling LAN Manager. >> Whenever we'd go out and criticize OS/2, that group {within Microsoft} would >> say 'we just took more friendly fire.'" >> >> There's the answer as to why IBM cannot release OS/2. I know we >> alluded to this fact in the original thread but this is the most positive >> confirmation I've seen. > >I disaggree on the argument. M$ contributed no 32-bit code to OS/2 as >far as I can tell. IMO it is the 32-bit code that made OS/2 superior to >Windows. BTW, OS/2 has some features that are not available on any other >OS, such as the immense flexibility of running DOS programs. One can >even write special device drivers that emulate a device in a virtual DOS >machine. There are many settings available for VDMs and features like >detecting polling loops to prevent waisting time I have never seen before. > >Check out "The design of OS/2" > >Bert > > Hi Rich and Bert, Rich, thank you for the reference to the 20-year anniv. issue of PC Mag, but regarding Gates: Gates is so slippery that I have to take much of what he says with multiple grains of salt. In several (perhaps many?) respects he's a classic sociopath. He all-to-often takes credit where none is due. He doesn't speak or write well, and if so many didn't believe that he was some sort of "genius," there would be little reason to listen to what he has to say. I mean, this is the guy who initially dismissed the www for probably 2 years. What a knucklehead he can be... He may also be the asshole who started the "Gary went flying" rumor/classic piece of disinformation (and if it was not him, he was "in on it," and he actively promoted it). Regards, Bob Greenstreet From cbajpai at comcast.net Tue Oct 18 07:41:35 2005 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:41:35 -0400 Subject: Best way to ship computers from overseas Message-ID: <200510181251.j9ICpVtY022842@keith.ezwind.net> I need to ship about 200 pounds of computers, documentation and spares from South Africa to Boston. Any suggestions on shipping this economically (and safely). It seems FedEx is quite expensive does not make economic sense for me..are there alternate carriers or methods (e.g. via Ship) that make sense to Look at? How do I deal with customs? Thanks, Chandra From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 18 08:29:52 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:29:52 -0500 Subject: A BDU's is born every minute ... In-Reply-To: <200510171848.j9HImqYx004296@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510171020310872.2448F630@10.0.0.252> <200510171848.j9HImqYx004296@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051018082802.04bd90c8@mail> At 01:39 PM 10/17/2005, Bob Bradlee wrote: >With the aid of a paperclip and a prybar, I opened up the drive to fine a >shattered CD inside. I took one look at it and asked what had happened >in shock, it was shattered in a hundred pieces. But I've seen this happen *twice* to a client who wasn't dunking them in LOX. CDs are spinning quite quickly. In this case, they were pressed CDs - cheap games, surely, perhaps they even came in a cereal box. - John From jrice54 at blackcube.org Tue Oct 18 09:00:43 2005 From: jrice54 at blackcube.org (James Rice) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:00:43 -0500 Subject: A BDU's is born every minute ... In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051018082802.04bd90c8@mail> References: <200510171020310872.2448F630@10.0.0.252> <200510171848.j9HImqYx004296@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20051018082802.04bd90c8@mail> Message-ID: <4355000B.5010806@blackcube.org> John Foust wrote: >At 01:39 PM 10/17/2005, Bob Bradlee wrote: > > >>With the aid of a paperclip and a prybar, I opened up the drive to fine a >>shattered CD inside. I took one look at it and asked what had happened >>in shock, it was shattered in a hundred pieces. >> >> > >But I've seen this happen *twice* to a client who wasn't >dunking them in LOX. CDs are spinning quite quickly. >In this case, they were pressed CDs - cheap games, surely, >perhaps they even came in a cereal box. > >- John > > > > I've had three Microsoft OEM Windows CD's explode in 52x drives during installed or restores. When contacted M$ not only refused to replace the media but accused us of buying pirated blackmarket Windows software because "Our genuine media dosen't shatter". A******s. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From mmaginnis at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 09:04:13 2005 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:04:13 -0600 Subject: IBM System/34 with diskettes & documentation available in Iowa In-Reply-To: <20051018051411.33415.qmail@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051018051411.33415.qmail@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Isn't the triangle-shaped shipping box a more recent design? - Mike On 10/17/05, Brian H. wrote: > Lets see... > The wall calendar has May 31st as being Tuesday, > possible years 1982, 1993, 1999 & 2004 > Did 'Express Mail' exist/have that logo in '82? > > Brian > > > >> Does it come with the broad? > >> > >> Also, I like the period appropriate fake wood paneling :) > > > I> suspect the picture itself is period, meaning that broad is now, what, 50? > > > >Gil > > > From mmaginnis at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 09:20:39 2005 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:20:39 -0600 Subject: Another strange Apple artifact In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/17/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Mike Maginnis wrote: > > > On 10/16/05, Gil Carrick wrote: > > > Apple /// Slot Machine > > > Front Glass Panel > > > > > > In the early 80s some Las Vegas slots paid a top prize of an Apple III > > > System. > > > No kidding! > > > Here is a glass panel from one of them > > > It measures about 23 X 11 > > > It has a nice baroque gold frame > > > A fantastic Apple artifact. Painted on glass! > > > > > > EbAY ITEM # 2757124365 > > > > > > Gil > > > > He's had that item up for a long time now (I'm thinking years, > > here...). That seller always has a great "pile" to pick through, but > > his prices are generally too high for my tastes. > > It's worth adding that the seller (John) is a terrifically fantastic guy > and is very nice to his customers. I've dealt with him on a few occasions > and he's always been just a pleasure to deal with. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > I should have qualified that. On the items I have bought from him, I've had zero problems. Sellam is right, he's a great seller. - Mike From mokuba at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 08:51:23 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:51:23 -0400 Subject: Kaypro boot disk. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/21/05 7:14 PM, "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote: > On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > >> Alrighty, I was just wanting it to all match up =] >> >> Now people need to send me stuff! Last time I put out a request I got a >> whopping one response! > > I suggest a formal campaign to solicit system disk images, with e-mail > messages, usenet postings, etc. I'll even post a news item to the front > page of the Vintage Computer Festival website if you'll send me details of > the project and the plan. You might also get Evan Koblentz to add a note > to his next Computer Collector Newsletter. In re to this - I've never been able to find a good usenet server, only through google have I done any usenet posting whatsoever. Any good free services? :) From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 18 10:38:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best way to ship computers from overseas In-Reply-To: <200510181251.j9ICpVtY022842@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > I need to ship about 200 pounds of computers, documentation and spares > from South Africa to Boston. > > Any suggestions on shipping this economically (and safely). It seems > FedEx is quite expensive does not make economic sense for me..are there > alternate carriers or methods (e.g. via Ship) that make sense to Look into BAX Global or Menlo Worldwide Forwarding (now part of UPS). > How do I deal with customs? Very painfully. Your best defense is to just say what it is: obsolete computer equipment for historical study. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 10:43:14 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:43:14 -0700 Subject: Best way to ship computers from overseas In-Reply-To: <200510181251.j9ICpVtY022842@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510181251.j9ICpVtY022842@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Probably the cheapest way to deal with this is to contact the different Airlines and set up an airport to airport delivery. You might have to settle for South Africa to New York. Not sure there are direct flights from South Aftrica to Boston. Not sure how customs are dealt with this way. Paxton On 10/18/05, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > > > I need to ship about 200 pounds of computers, documentation and spares > from > South Africa to Boston. > > > > Any suggestions on shipping this economically (and safely). It seems FedEx > is quite expensive does not > make economic sense for me..are there alternate carriers or methods (e.g. > via Ship) that make sense to > > Look at? > > > > How do I deal with customs? > > > > Thanks, > > Chandra > > > > > > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 18 10:51:22 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:51:22 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4354462D.7020606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <435424FF.4040305@yahoo.co.uk> <4354462D.7020606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <435519FA.7050303@yahoo.co.uk> woodelf wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> >> Yeah, Logo's more technicolour retarded, with a big flashing light on >> top :-) > > > Now what about LEGO ... I Know they have something computer controled > with the stupid high-priced building blocks? Yeah... I remember seeing some Lego again a couple of years ago and it was kinda depressing - it seemed to be nearly all custom pieces specific to the model bought. Back when I was a kid all the bits were generic - so there was a lot more scope for ignoring what Lego wanted you to build and doing your own thing! I must admit that some of the robotic stuff looks pretty cool - but it still doesn't compare to the old days of bodging on motors and stuff scavenged from various devices :) cheers Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 11:06:32 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:06:32 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <435519FA.7050303@yahoo.co.uk> References: <435424FF.4040305@yahoo.co.uk> <4354462D.7020606@jetnet.ab.ca> <435519FA.7050303@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43551D88.3030807@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Yeah... I remember seeing some Lego again a couple of years ago and it > was kinda depressing - it seemed to be nearly all custom pieces specific > to the model bought. Back when I was a kid all the bits were generic - > so there was a lot more scope for ignoring what Lego wanted you to build > and doing your own thing! > > I must admit that some of the robotic stuff looks pretty cool - but it > still doesn't compare to the old days of bodging on motors and stuff > scavenged from various devices :) You can still get the generic kits, they're just not very popular with the littlest ones, so they tend not to sell them in smaller toy stores. I buy most of my Legos on ebay nowadays. Peace... Sridhar From allain at panix.com Tue Oct 18 11:14:20 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:14:20 -0400 Subject: Compute magazine (retry) References: <4354B5E0.5070602@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <013101c5d3fe$ffecf380$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Do the "professional scanners" here, like Al, have a recommendation > for resolving this? What you have to watch is the black/white threshold level on the lower contrast lettering, like your page 5. I like to hand-set that threshold on pages like this, then wipe around with an eraser to clear out the increased noiselevel artifacts. Of course I defer to Al on issues of scanning. I guess what we all need is a way to do automatic noise suppression, very analagous to digitizing music. John A. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 18 11:39:05 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:39:05 -0700 Subject: Compute magazine (retry) Message-ID: <15bca9bc551a4b99c61ae7164b5e5bcf@bitsavers.org> > Do the "professional scanners" here, like Al, have a recommendation for > resolving this? "Why should we pay you, when we get what you do for free?" - John Toole (CHM) It doesn't appear i'll be doing this "professionally" any time soon. -- To answer your question, I scan low contrast color text on a high resolution color scanner and try to maximize contrast before doing the thresholding to black and white. Graphic Converter on the Mac has a number of built-in filters that make it very easy to interactively do this. Once I have the values, I can batch convert the scans using the scripting in GC. There is probably something in the Linux or Windows world that is equivalent, though the tools I've tried there aren't nearly as easy to use as GC. The covers on the Oregon State timsharing system memos on bitsavers was a document that I had to fiddle with to get an acceptable scan. They are brown on dark orange paper, which came out totally black on the IS520 B&W scanner (which uses a green scanning lamp). From bv at norbionics.com Tue Oct 18 06:56:23 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:56:23 +0200 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 18 Oct, 2005, at 04:00, William Donzelli wrote: >> Now what about LEGO ... I Know they have something computer controled >> with the stupid high-priced building blocks? > > Real nerds use Fischer-Technik. > > Real real nerds have grey and red colored Fischer-Technik. Yay! I'm a real nerd! Actually, I got a set of Fischer-Technik after I saw it used in a demo for some industrial control system at a German computer fair in the late seventies. -- -bv From Phil_Matthews at DRSOptronics.com Tue Oct 18 07:36:11 2005 From: Phil_Matthews at DRSOptronics.com (Matthews, Phil) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:36:11 -0400 Subject: HP 9133 Message-ID: <53CB7766CBAB9148BCB56ABC56F408CF051921D4@california.drso.biz> Hi, I have been looking at your cctalk bulletin board and it appears that Frank McConnell is someone who knows a lot about old HP computers. I have been tasked to replace the HP 9133 computer on some of our test equipment with new PC's. I was hoping to contact somebody who might know if this is possible and how to do it. So I was wondering if you knew how I could contact Frank McConnell or somebody who might know. Sincerely Phil Matthews DRS Optronics Inc Electrical Engineer (321) 309-2124 phil_matthews at drsoptronics.com From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Tue Oct 18 12:15:58 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best way to ship computers from overseas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051018171558.95188.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Paxton Hoag wrote: > Probably the cheapest way to deal with this is to > contact the different > Airlines and set up an airport to airport delivery. I'd second that, the final leg of the delivery, the local airport to home delivery, eats up to 70% of the total cost of overseas shipping (in my experience with shipping from mainland china). As always the prices vary widely with different airport/delivery services combinations but picking it up at New York would most likely be the cheapest. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From allain at panix.com Tue Oct 18 13:09:37 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:09:37 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages References: Message-ID: <033001c5d40f$1af83800$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Actually, I got a set of Fischer-Technik after I saw it > used in a demo for some industrial control system at > a German computer fair in the late seventies. Here's a longshot, but entirely on topic... Anybody know how to drive the Fischertechnik Computer Interface (Art-Nr.30570P*) directly from 'c'? John A. we now calibrate our microphone for silence... * Mechatronic Tech. Inc. 86R14M011 From jhoger at pobox.com Tue Oct 18 13:13:42 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:13:42 -0700 Subject: OT: legos vs. k'nex In-Reply-To: <4354462D.7020606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <435424FF.4040305@yahoo.co.uk> <4354462D.7020606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1129659222.5865.34.camel@aragorn> On Mon, 2005-10-17 at 18:47 -0600, woodelf wrote: > J > Now what about LEGO ... I Know they have something computer controled > with the stupid high-priced building blocks? > > > I've always been more of a K'nex fan. The robotics stuff isn't quite as good (though I do have one of the robot kits), but I prefer the structural cohesion of k'nex. You can make much bigger models without the sheer bulk pulling it apart. The CAD stuff for LEGOs is pretty cool. Lots of free stuff available for documenting designs. Maybe they can be used for K'nex too, but I don't know. Here's a way to use both LEGOs and K'nex: http://www.sploids.com/ Here are some K'nex DNA models: http://tandem.bu.edu/knex/knex.pdf -- John. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 18 14:12:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paging Cameron Kaiser Message-ID: Sorry for the interruption to your normally scheduled off-topic messages. Cameron, I occasionally get the following error when attempting to e-mail you: ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- (reason: 553 5.3.5 system config error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 451 4.4.1 reply: read error from mail.floodgap.com. 553 5.3.5 mail.flactem.com. config error: mail loops back to me (MX problem?) 554 5.3.5 Local configuration error It's happened twice this morning, and once about a couple weeks ago. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jdrcpeterson at graceba.net Tue Oct 18 14:30:47 2005 From: jdrcpeterson at graceba.net (J. Darren Peterson) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:30:47 -0500 Subject: DEC RA82 data recovery Message-ID: <008a01c5d41a$7192c710$6ed1939b@nase.ds.army.mil> Anyone know of a source for data recovery from a DEC RA82 disk drive? Darren Peterson From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 18 14:42:31 2005 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:42:31 -0400 Subject: TS computers (was PalmOS no more?) In-Reply-To: <200510072326.QAA09456@floodgap.com> References: <200510072326.QAA09456@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <43555027.6060304@bellsouth.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>Cameron, have you ever seen a US-made TS2048? To my knowledge they >>never made it into production. > > > I haven't, no. But that's okay, because the 2068 is more interesting even > if it's less compatible :) Okay. According to everything I've been able to find out, the machine was originally advertised (pre-production) as TS2000, but when the C64 was released, Timex wanted to "one-up" Commodore and renamed their unit TS2068 (68 being greater than 64 ;-) The TS2048 was then put into the plans as a 48K version, but was never produced. Of course, Timex of Portugal sold a lot of TC2048s in Europe. > Consider me E-mailing you soooooon. :) The component I want most is the > Spectrum emulator, just so I can play games but still work with the expanded > features. A Spectrum emulator is nice to have because of all the available software (not just games ;-) A disk drive is handy, too. Several were available, but the best was made by John Oliger (who, remarkably, is still in business and still sells the drive i/fs). I say best because it uses the expansion bus instead of the cartridge dock, and it is also Spectrum-emulator comppatible. Other Oliger goodies include a parallel printer i/f and EPROM programmer. Glen 0/0 From allain at panix.com Tue Oct 18 14:50:48 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:50:48 -0400 Subject: DEC RA82 data recovery References: <008a01c5d41a$7192c710$6ed1939b@nase.ds.army.mil> Message-ID: <002b01c5d41d$3d38cd40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Anyone know of a source for data recovery from a DEC RA82 disk drive? I would say right here on this list. What kind of problems might you have... Is it as simple as having no matching computer? John A. From paul at mirams.org Tue Oct 18 14:36:55 2005 From: paul at mirams.org (Paul C. Mirams) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:36:55 -0400 Subject: Best way to ship computers from overseas References: Message-ID: <5B4A277527225349899CDE6DDC8153A101412C@pcmfps02.mirams.org> I did it by flying first class(on the return flight) on virgin atlantic (using frequent flyer points) (USA-UK) they then allow you to ship 4 pieces of luggage upto 83KG, 3 can be boxes. So I buy stuff in the UK, have it shipped to a friend, then go visit them, box the stuff up, take it with me on the plane. No real customs issues, although I always take the ebay win print out with me. So you get the ship it for less than any of the regular carriers and get a small vacation for what was probably much less. Paul ________________________________ From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Tue 10/18/2005 11:38 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Best way to ship computers from overseas On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > I need to ship about 200 pounds of computers, documentation and spares > from South Africa to Boston. > > Any suggestions on shipping this economically (and safely). It seems > FedEx is quite expensive does not make economic sense for me..are there > alternate carriers or methods (e.g. via Ship) that make sense to Look into BAX Global or Menlo Worldwide Forwarding (now part of UPS). > How do I deal with customs? Very painfully. Your best defense is to just say what it is: obsolete computer equipment for historical study. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Oct 18 15:23:41 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:23:41 +0100 Subject: DEC RA82 data recovery In-Reply-To: <008a01c5d41a$7192c710$6ed1939b@nase.ds.army.mil> Message-ID: <002301c5d421$d6041c10$5b01a8c0@pc1> J. Darren Peterson wrote: > Anyone know of a source for data recovery from a DEC RA82 disk drive? If you mean "I have an RA82 and I want some data from it" then I expect a few people will pipe up here. If you mean "I have an RA82 that has suffered a head crash/ been in a fire/etc. ..." then you may have a tough time. About twenty years ago, when the Open University in the UK suffered a computer room fire, DEC shipped the drives over to the factory in Germany to recover the data. Good publicity for DEC; no idea how much - if any - of the data they recovered. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 18 14:42:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:42:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <17236.15283.46000.357368@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Oct 17, 5 08:02:59 pm Message-ID: > How about a gold plated mains plug, for $140? I saw one in a catalog > last week... I've seen gold-plated fuses..... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 18 14:44:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:44:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510180015.j9I0FuGK010926@keith.ezwind.net> from "Gil Carrick" at Oct 17, 5 07:06:00 pm Message-ID: > > At one point at Four-Phase Systems I wrote a PILOT system. It was not [...] > There were other smaller systems that supported it, I think, but I am not > specifically aware of any. There was certainly a Pilot interpretter for the TRS-80 Model 3 (I have it), and I think there was one for the Model 1 too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 18 14:54:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:54:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 17, 5 10:00:50 pm Message-ID: > > > Now what about LEGO ... I Know they have something computer controled > > with the stupid high-priced building blocks? > > Real nerds use Fischer-Technik. > > Real real nerds have grey and red colored Fischer-Technik. What other coulour is there? I've seen black gears (but most of mine are the old red ones), and they even have aluminium alloy beams I think now. Fischer Technik has gone down spectacularly since I was a kid. In the old days there were fairly simple elecrronic modules (alas so expensive that I couldn't afford enough of them) -- things like a double pole changeover relay, analogue voltage comparator, AND gate, OR gate, flip-flop, monotstable, etc. Now you seem to get a complete sensor-input to motor-switch-output module, which is a lot less versatile. Oh well.... There was a Fischer Technick kit with TTL chips in it (!). There was a module with a 14 pin DIL socket on the front with the connections brought out to pins on the front. You plugged in one of the 4 chips in the kit (IIRC 7400 NAND gate, 7402 NOR gate, 7408 AND gate or 74121 monostable), connected the pins correctly, added R's and C's as appropriate, etc. There were LDRs in the kit (which, with the appropriate pull-up resistor could directly switch a TTL input), there was also a special relay module that could be driven from TTL. Does anyone else here have that one? No, mine is not for sale... _Real_ hackers (I don't know what a nerd is...) control the original Fischer Technik robotics kit with a homebrew interface from their HP48 calculator... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 18 15:25:39 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:25:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <033001c5d40f$1af83800$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Oct 18, 5 02:09:37 pm Message-ID: > > > Actually, I got a set of Fischer-Technik after I saw it > > used in a demo for some industrial control system at > > a German computer fair in the late seventies. > > Here's a longshot, but entirely on topic... > Anybody know how to drive the Fischertechnik Computer Interface > (Art-Nr.30570P*) directly from 'c'? Is that the modern-ish one with an 8051-series microcontroller in it? Is there any way to look at the firmware? Alas(for you) the Fischer Technik robotics kit I have didn't include an interface. Just 2 mini-motors, an electromagnet, 2 pots, 3 lamps, and mechanical bits. You could buy interfaces for it, or build your own. You can guess what I did (even 20 years ago...) Talking of Fischer Technik, there was a thing sold in the UK called a 'BBC Buggy'. It was a Fischer Technik frame with stepper motors bolted (!) to it driving the wheels. On top was a PCB containg the driver circuits. As the name implies, it connected to a BBC micro, to the user port for the motor drive signals and the bumper switchs and to the analogue port for the light sensor, etc. I have one. What I don't have is the original software for it. Does anybody? -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Oct 18 15:32:27 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:32:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: A BDU's is born every minute ... In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: A BDU's is born every minute ..." (Oct 18, 8:29) References: <200510171020310872.2448F630@10.0.0.252> <200510171848.j9HImqYx004296@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20051018082802.04bd90c8@mail> Message-ID: <10510182132.ZM16158@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 18 2005, 8:29, John Foust wrote: > At 01:39 PM 10/17/2005, Bob Bradlee wrote: > >With the aid of a paperclip and a prybar, I opened up the drive to fine a > >shattered CD inside. > But I've seen this happen *twice* to a client who wasn't > dunking them in LOX. CDs are spinning quite quickly. I've never actually seen it happen, but a couple of years ago one of the manufacturers who supplies the University issued a warning about fast drives, and IIRC some were recalled. The explanation was that the faster "52x" drives run at a speed which is very close to that at which centrifugal force can make a polycarbonate disk break up, so a defect in the disk can have a profound effect. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 18 15:56:02 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:56:02 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43556162.7090909@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>Real real nerds have grey and red colored Fischer-Technik. > > What other coulour is there? I've seen black gears (but most of mine are > the old red ones), and they even have aluminium alloy beams I think now. Actually, the beams used for the BBC Buggy (which is of course F-T) are metal of some flavour rather than plastic, so they've been around that way for a good 20 years now. (I assume you mean that the beams were originally plastic? I've never seen that much of the stuff around) Your comments make me wonder what the history of the buggy was though - did it start out as a F-T kit in its own right, or was it a joint effort between F-T / Acorn / the BBC and designed specifically with the BBC Micro in mind? (from memory options to use them with RML hardware existed too, though) cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 16:14:34 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:14:34 +1300 Subject: tapetools and VMS Backup tapes Message-ID: I slapped an AHA 1640 PCMCIA card in my Linux laptop, compiled tapetools 0.4 and 0.6 and started shoving tapes in my TSZ07. I wrote these tapes myself a number of years ago, and have finally gotten around to attempting to extract them. Things seemed to go fine, except that on certain tapes, I saw a page or two of partial records reported - i.e. - these VMS BACKUP tapes were written with a block size of 16384, and some tapes report ~2500 records of 16384 bytes (1600 bpi), and some report a few hundred records of 16384, then a few at a smaller number, then more at 16384, etc. I'd think there were some read problems, but the tape wasn't shoe-shining - it buzzed along at full tilt. Does anyone here have any experience with reading VMS BACKUP tapes with tapetools? Can you share your observations? I haven't yet tried reading the files - I know there were some VMS BACKUP extractors in C years ago, and I've even used them, but I'll probably have to re-find and rebuilt them. I could also fire up simh and VMS, but at the moment, my VMS install CDs are somewhere else. I'm really just after the data for now - it's all the stuff I worked on at Software Results years ago - all the COMBOARD software as well as a wad of personal files (one-off programs, stuff from newsgroups, etc.). I still have the Fuji Eagle that was spun down a few weeks after the backup was made, but I haven't attempted to power that up yet to see if it still works. Thanks for sharing any tapetools stories (and any suggestions about 'modern' VMS BACKUP extractors). -ethan From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Oct 18 16:32:17 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 22:32:17 +0100 Subject: tapetools and VMS Backup tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003101c5d42b$6bd17ae0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I slapped an AHA 1640 PCMCIA card in my Linux laptop, compiled > tapetools 0.4 and 0.6 and started shoving tapes in my TSZ07. I wrote > these tapes myself a number of years ago, and have finally gotten > around to attempting to extract them. Things seemed to go fine, > except that on certain tapes, I saw a page or two of partial records > reported - i.e. - these VMS BACKUP tapes were written with a block > size of 16384, and some tapes report ~2500 records of 16384 bytes > (1600 bpi), and some report a few hundred records of 16384, then a > few at a smaller number, then more at 16384, etc. I'd think there > were some read problems, but the tape wasn't shoe-shining - it buzzed > along at full tilt. I've only ever used BACKUP to extract BACKUP savesets; partly because I always have OpenVMS handy and partly because I've never ever had any trouble from BACKUP. It will cope with bad blocks on tapes (it just keeps going until it finds a good block). > Thanks for sharing any tapetools stories (and any suggestions about > 'modern' VMS BACKUP extractors). Dig out those install CDs, build a SIMH OpenVMS system and back that up to CD or DVD for next time you need a real BACKUP tool :-) I guess you could also try to take the raw data and throw away the short records. BACKUP blocks are numbered IIRC so I expect that tapetools will either be jolly grateful that you saved it some trouble or whine miserably that some essential data is missing. Unless you used /GROUP=0 you should have some XOR redundancy groups, which gives BACKUP a good chance of recovering occasional completely lost blocks. The very start of the saveset includes (amongst other stuff) the command used to write the saveset. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 16:36:31 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 22:36:31 +0100 Subject: tapetools and VMS Backup tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a640510181436x742ce683p@mail.gmail.com> Try this, it's not been updated for a while though. http://www.panix.com/~kingdon/vms/backup.html Dan From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Oct 18 16:43:56 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:43:56 -0400 Subject: tapetools and VMS Backup tapes References: Message-ID: <17237.27804.828000.331867@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> Thanks for sharing any tapetools stories (and any suggestions Ethan> about 'modern' VMS BACKUP extractors). How modern? RSTS (V9.0 or later) will read many VMS BACKUP tapes... :-) paul From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Oct 18 16:51:32 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 22:51:32 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/I (ebay, UK) In-Reply-To: <1129659222.5865.34.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <003401c5d42e$1b592ba0$5b01a8c0@pc1> ebay 8709519303 (PDP-8 plus teletype in the UK). For the HP[*] fans, it currently lives in Dursley in Gloucs. No connection (sadly) with the seller. Antonio [*] That's Harry Potter not Hewlett Packard, of course ! -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From gilcarrick at comcast.net Tue Oct 18 17:03:07 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:03:07 -0500 Subject: IBM System/34 with diskettes & documentation available in Iowa In-Reply-To: <200510180317.j9I3HOxN013891@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200510182213.j9IMD3l4035949@keith.ezwind.net> ... > >I suspect the picture itself is period, meaning that broad > is now, what, 50? > > >Gil > > That just about the right age for some of us :) > > Bob > One of the few nice things about getting older is that one can now appreciate those of the opposite sex that have become Vintage Computers along with us (63 here). ;) Our children have more limited scope. Gil From gilcarrick at comcast.net Tue Oct 18 17:08:21 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:08:21 -0500 Subject: Someone got their IBM 029 working In-Reply-To: <200510180314.j9I3E7uC013841@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200510182218.j9IMICCU036049@keith.ezwind.net> ... > I have several Zenith cards, they are perforated so 1/3 could > be removed for the customer record and the 2/3 length card > remaining could be sent in as a reorder card. They had to > have some funky reader to read the short cards. > > Bob IIRC. the Documation readers (and perhaps others) read the card from the end rather than from the side. They were typically lower speed, 200-1000 CPM, maybe less. They picked the card with a vacuum I think, rather than pushing it with a knife edge (if that's the right term). Thus they could easily handle cards of any length. Gil From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Oct 18 17:12:15 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:12:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <43556162.7090909@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > Actually, the beams used for the BBC Buggy (which is of course F-T) are > metal of some flavour rather than plastic, so they've been around that > way for a good 20 years now. (I assume you mean that the beams were > originally plastic? I've never seen that much of the stuff around) Sometime around ten years ago (I think), F-T changed from red/grey to yellow/black. It is still pretty much the same. Kind of like cockroaches, but in a good way - very well engineered for simplicity, extremely adaptable, and will outlive the human species. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 18 17:44:20 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4354C94C.2030907@gjcp.net> References: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <4350C257.8080601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051017130233.V24559@shell.lmi.net> <20051017173050.H39125@shell.lmi.net> <4354C94C.2030907@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20051018154308.I81758@shell.lmi.net> > > Actually, I AGREE with those size recommendations. > > I LIKE having 8 bit chars, 16 bit ints, 32 bit longs; > > but there are some bizarre vintage implementations out there, > > and on the old stuff, you can not count on a specific size. > On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > But only because the hardware you're used to using C on suits these sizes. You're absolutely right. I like those sizes, because they're a good fit with my hardware. From ss at allegro.com Tue Oct 18 17:47:36 2005 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:47:36 -0700 Subject: HP Journals ( 1979-1987) available Message-ID: <43551918.25142.97A0E5@localhost> Hi, A fellow programmer / collector recently passed away, and I'm helping his widow find homes for some of his hardware, software, manuals, etc. She just wrote to me: I have found another stack of HP Journals, not every month, from 1979-1987 and 1992. Are they keepers? IIRC, I've got a box of HP Journals from her already, that I was planning on taking to the Vintage Computer Festival (www.vintage.org). Anyone here interested in HP Journals should email me for discussions / offers. No, I do not have a list of issues available at this time. I hope to be reunited with the box (making its way from Phoenix) before VCF, but... thanks, Stan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 18 18:01:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 00:01:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <43556162.7090909@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 18, 5 09:56:02 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >>Real real nerds have grey and red colored Fischer-Technik. > > > > What other coulour is there? I've seen black gears (but most of mine are > > the old red ones), and they even have aluminium alloy beams I think now. > > Actually, the beams used for the BBC Buggy (which is of course F-T) are > metal of some flavour rather than plastic, so they've been around that Those are the ones I am refering to. Point is, much of my F-T is well over 30 years old now, so the BBC Buggy is what I'd call 'modern' :-) > way for a good 20 years now. (I assume you mean that the beams were > originally plastic? I've never seen that much of the stuff around) Oriignally there were just the blocks (30mm long * 15mm * 15mm) and the half-size blocks (15mm cube). They were all grey nylon. > > Your comments make me wonder what the history of the buggy was though - > did it start out as a F-T kit in its own right, or was it a joint effort AFAIK it was never an F-T product. F-T never used stepper motors, and if they had they would not have fitted them with screws through the grouves of the blocks. Of course it uses F-T components (wheels, chain deive, the LDR, the microswitches for the bumpers and all the structural bits are stock F-T, The motors, electronics, barcode sensor and 3rd wheel are not). I think it was a totally 3rd party design by somebody who recognised that F-T parts would be ideal to make a small, hackable, robot. > between F-T / Acorn / the BBC and designed specifically with the BBC > Micro in mind? > > (from memory options to use them with RML hardware existed too, though) That does not suprise me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 18 18:14:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 00:14:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 18, 5 06:12:15 pm Message-ID: > Sometime around ten years ago (I think), F-T changed from red/grey to > yellow/black. It is still pretty much the same. Kind of like cockroaches, Well, the mechanical bits are much the same (although I think some have been discontinued), the electromechanical stuff and electronics has been totally dumbbed down from the stuff I learnt on. There are no replacements for the old-series electronic modules, for the analogue (transistors) and digital (TTL) kits (I wish I had the former...) or even som,e of the electromechanical bits. > but in a good way - very well engineered for simplicity, extremely > adaptable, and will outlive the human species. I have had parts fail. In particular, the little gearbox modules used with the mini-motor have nylon gears pressed onto metal shafts. I've had some develop radial splits and then slip and fail to mesh smoothly (like the well-known failure mode of the Alps mini-ballpoint-pen plotter). F-T do not supply such spara parts, so you have to buy the complete module (at least you can sometimes make one good one from 2 dead ones...) -tony From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Oct 18 14:30:33 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:30:33 +0000 Subject: A BDU's is born every minute ... In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051018082802.04bd90c8@mail> References: <200510171848.j9HImqYx004296@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20051018232953.BUUW26967.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > At 01:39 PM 10/17/2005, Bob Bradlee wrote: > >With the aid of a paperclip and a prybar, I opened up the drive to fine a > >shattered CD inside. I took one look at it and asked what had happened > >in shock, it was shattered in a hundred pieces. > > But I've seen this happen *twice* to a client who wasn't > dunking them in LOX. CDs are spinning quite quickly. > In this case, they were pressed CDs - cheap games, surely, > perhaps they even came in a cereal box. > > - John Is this exploding CDs at 52X speeds reason IBM had many CD drives derated to 20X-48X ranges? Cheers, Wizard From melt at microvax.org Tue Oct 18 18:56:09 2005 From: melt at microvax.org (Alex White) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 00:56:09 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/I (ebay, UK) In-Reply-To: <003401c5d42e$1b592ba0$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <003401c5d42e$1b592ba0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: On 18 Oct 2005, at 22:51, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > ebay 8709519303 (PDP-8 plus teletype in the UK). > > For the HP[*] fans, it currently lives in Dursley in Gloucs. Ooh! That's less than 15 mins from me! [...] Damn, the "local pickup only" hasn't scared off bidders. Damn. alex/melt From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 18:59:00 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:59:00 -0400 Subject: tapetools and VMS Backup tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43558C44.5010905@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I slapped an AHA 1640 PCMCIA card in my Linux laptop, compiled Isn't the AHA1640 a Microchannel card? Peace... Sridhar From shirsch at adelphia.net Tue Oct 18 19:42:20 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <4354CF60.4090401@gjcp.net> References: <4354CF60.4090401@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > What kind of people believe in this crap? > > > > > > Oh don't get me started on the audiophools :-) > > > > > > > Do they replace the wiring in their house as well to prevent > > > micro-movements of the wires? > > > > > > One of my favourites is 'monocrystaline copper cable' Since any bending > > of said cable is going to disrupt the crystal latice, presumably it has > > to come pre-shaped to fit thr room, right? > > Well - I suppose if you can find someone to sell it to the audiophiles, I > connect up their speakers with copper brake pipe mounted on ceramic > insulators. Just think of it - never mind 79-strand, this cable is *one big > thick strand*! None of that interference caused by the surfaces of the > strands rubbing against each other! And of course, it's a tube, to make the > most of the "skin effect" to give you clearer high frequencies... Gotta love it when the golden-eared folks apply RF transmission-line theory to speaker cabling. My scepticism towards audiophile snake-oil comes via heredity (my late father spent 40+ years in the industry). Steve From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Oct 18 19:44:01 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:44:01 -0400 Subject: battery education sought References: <010801c5d27f$b311b990$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <002b01c5d446$33cc8d90$0100a8c0@screamer> No, mercury batteries are not rechargeable. They are honestly a really major hazard, and need special disposal. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:30 PM Subject: battery education sought >I noticed my HP 262X terminals have a "Duracell TR133" battery in the back >to maintain settings when powered off. The battery indicates "Mercury" on >the side. > > Are mercury batteries rechargable? I would have thought they'd use a nicad > or something to charge up while the unit was on. > > The TR133 battery also indicates "4.2V". It seems the Duracell replacement > for this battery is Alkaline, and 4.5V. Should I use it? > > Jay > From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Oct 18 19:48:42 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:48:42 -0400 Subject: tapetools and VMS Backup tapes In-Reply-To: <43558C44.5010905@gmail.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051018204635.03a23a78@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Sridhar Ayengar may have mentioned these words: >Ethan Dicks wrote: >>I slapped an AHA 1640 PCMCIA card in my Linux laptop, compiled > >Isn't the AHA1640 a Microchannel card? Google confirms the AHA1640 is an MCA card; it was prolly a dyslexic typo, as the PCMCIA card is the AHA1460, from what google also tells me. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Oct 18 19:53:59 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:53:59 -0500 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: <4354CF60.4090401@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43559927.4050202@pacbell.net> Steven N. Hirsch wrote: ... > Gotta love it when the golden-eared folks apply RF transmission-line > theory to speaker cabling. My scepticism towards audiophile snake-oil > comes via heredity (my late father spent 40+ years in the industry). > > Steve The Life and Career of Julian D. Hirsch Steven Hirsch December 2003 http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=7&article_id=522 From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 19:55:48 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:55:48 -0400 Subject: tapetools and VMS Backup tapes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051018204635.03a23a78@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051018204635.03a23a78@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <43559994.6040608@gmail.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Sridhar Ayengar may have mentioned these words: > >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> I slapped an AHA 1640 PCMCIA card in my Linux laptop, compiled >> >> >> Isn't the AHA1640 a Microchannel card? > > > Google confirms the AHA1640 is an MCA card; it was prolly a dyslexic > typo, as the PCMCIA card is the AHA1460, from what google also tells me. Ah. Understood. Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 18 19:50:53 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 01:50:53 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4355986D.7090208@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>Actually, the beams used for the BBC Buggy (which is of course F-T) are >>metal of some flavour rather than plastic, so they've been around that > > Those are the ones I am refering to. > > Point is, much of my F-T is well over 30 years old now, so the BBC Buggy > is what I'd call 'modern' :-) heh, fair call :) >>Your comments make me wonder what the history of the buggy was though - >>did it start out as a F-T kit in its own right, or was it a joint effort > > > AFAIK it was never an F-T product. F-T never used stepper motors, and if > they had they would not have fitted them with screws through the grouves > of the blocks. Yep, some aspects of it seem a little bodgy - but then the PCB's quite nice if I remember, and the curved clear 'lid' was a pretty good job. The whole thing seemed halfway between a F-T product and someone's bedroom hack :-) (Incidentally, I need to find suitable replacement tyres for Bletchley's buggies; they've nearly all decayed now - not sure if rubber O-rings would work or be of the wrong substance and therefore too slippy. Yet another job to get around to at some point!) cheers Jules From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 18 20:27:03 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:27:03 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" References: <4354CF60.4090401@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <007501c5d44c$3638c3e0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven N. Hirsch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 8:42 PM Subject: Re: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" > Gotta love it when the golden-eared folks apply RF transmission-line > theory to speaker cabling. My scepticism towards audiophile snake-oil > comes via heredity (my late father spent 40+ years in the industry). > > Steve > I used to have a subscription to Stereo Review in the 1980-90's, must have read quite a few of your fathers reviews. Funny thing is I am terrible with remembering names but his stuck in my head for some reason or other. If you think home stereo sellers were full of it, you should have seen the garbage car stereo stores were doing in the 1980's. Anyway, whether its computers or sound systems you have to use your brain, know what you want/need, and read up on the topic before you even think of giving anybody your hard earned cash. Salespeople are there only to tell you what models are in stock and to walk the boxes to the checkout counter. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 20:38:40 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:38:40 +1300 Subject: tapetools and VMS Backup tapes In-Reply-To: <43558C44.5010905@gmail.com> References: <43558C44.5010905@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/19/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I slapped an AHA 1640 PCMCIA card in my Linux laptop, compiled > > Isn't the AHA1640 a Microchannel card? Perhaps... I might have had a 1460... -ethan From cbajpai at comcast.net Tue Oct 18 21:07:45 2005 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 22:07:45 -0400 Subject: Best way to ship computers from overseas (payment question followup) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200510190217.j9J2HmAI042060@keith.ezwind.net> Thanks...any thoughts on how to transact a payment overseas without getting screwed over? PayPal is a no-go. Escrow service? -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 11:38 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Best way to ship computers from overseas On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > I need to ship about 200 pounds of computers, documentation and spares > from South Africa to Boston. > > Any suggestions on shipping this economically (and safely). It seems > FedEx is quite expensive does not make economic sense for me..are there > alternate carriers or methods (e.g. via Ship) that make sense to Look into BAX Global or Menlo Worldwide Forwarding (now part of UPS). > How do I deal with customs? Very painfully. Your best defense is to just say what it is: obsolete computer equipment for historical study. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Oct 18 21:20:32 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:20:32 -0700 Subject: HP 9133 References: <53CB7766CBAB9148BCB56ABC56F408CF051921D4@california.drso.biz> Message-ID: <200510190220.j9J2KWFu061945@lots.reanimators.org> Phil Matthews wrote: > I have been looking at your cctalk bulletin board and it appears that > Frank McConnell is someone who knows a lot about old HP computers. I > have been tasked to replace the HP 9133 computer on some of our test > equipment with new PC's. I was hoping to contact somebody who might know > if this is possible and how to do it. So I was wondering if you knew how > I could contact Frank McConnell or somebody who might know. Appearances can be misleading. I mostly wonder why it is that I remember how to take apart a 262X terminal better than I remember what I was working on last month. And, my work with this stuff was in a data processing and office automation environment, so what I remember is mostly terminals and HP150s and some early Vectras and of course classic HP3000s. There are other folks who read cctalk who have more clues than I do about the test-equipment side of HP, so posting to cctalk may get you more help than I can give you. One thing I am sure of, your first step is to take another look at your system. The 9133 is a disc drive; actually it is two of them, hard and flexible. It does have a microcontroller, but its firmware is about being disc drives, not about computing. Something else in there is the computer, and you need to look again and find out what that is. -Frank McConnell From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Oct 18 21:36:44 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:36:44 -0700 Subject: Programmer Poll... Message-ID: <200510181936440932.78417F18@192.168.42.129> Fellow classic'ers, An idea just occurred to me, one that was inspired by a 'group buy' I did several years ago, on behalf of the ClassicCmp community, for Teledisk. Before I can even consider implementing it, though, I need to know how many of the group's members own one or more of the following Data I/O device programmers: UniSite or UniSite XPi, 2900, 3900, or 3980 XPi (in short, any one of the 'UniFamily' programmers). I see no need to clutter the list with responses. Please contact me off-list. If, for whatever reason, you try to reply and it bounces, try my backup address of kc7gr at qsl dot net. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 22:18:35 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:18:35 -0400 Subject: Best way to ship computers from overseas (payment question followup) In-Reply-To: <200510190217.j9J2HmAI042060@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510190217.j9J2HmAI042060@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4355BB0B.60509@gmail.com> Chandra Bajpai wrote: > Thanks...any thoughts on how to transact a payment overseas without getting > screwed over? PayPal is a no-go. Escrow service? Definitely escrow. Make sure and use an escrow service you've heard of too. That's a common scam. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 22:25:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:25:07 +1300 Subject: Fischer Technik and similar logic-enhanced toys (was Re: OT: Language for the ages) Message-ID: On 10/19/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > Real nerds use Fischer-Technik. I saw that stuff in the early 80s and couldn't come close to affording it. > Fischer Technik has gone down spectacularly since I was a kid. In the old > days there were fairly simple elecrronic modules (alas so expensive that > I couldn't afford enough of them) -- things like a double pole changeover > relay, analogue voltage comparator, AND gate, OR gate, flip-flop, > monotstable, etc. I remember that stuff - in particular, I remember enough logic for an elevator controller and a traffic light. I'd _love_ a way to home-brew some sort of snap-together logic toy. For that matter, I'd love a way to make something like a DEC Logic Lab from stuff around the house (i.e. - a 2 sq ft board covered with logic and plug points)... One could use banana jacks, etc., for the interconnects, but at retail pricing, that would start to add up to real money real fast. -ethan From infomagic at localisp.com Tue Oct 18 22:32:08 2005 From: infomagic at localisp.com (infomagic) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:32:08 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages Message-ID: <853e053075c42c39dc59284f93984752@localisp.com> > Here's an interesting problem. > > Suppose you wanted to write an application for a > manufacturing process that will, in all probability, run for > the next 30 years. No direct control of the process itself > is entailed (i.e., you don't need the program to operation > valves or run motors), but you do need this program to > compute manufacturing parameters for each customer. I/O > requirements are very modest, mostly simple keyboard and display. > > What would you write it in? Clearly, you'd want to be > independent of a particular software vendor, so the likes of > Visual BASIC isn't an option. > You'd also want to write in a language that isn't nearing > obsolescence, nor one that's still evolving. "Niche" > languages would be out of the question, as longevity could be > a problem. > > So what would it be? My vote is for FORTRAN. I've been following this thread for a few days now, and I'd like to contribute my $0.02. The original problem statement asserted several presumptions: >you'd want to be > independent of a particular software vendor.. >... > You'd also want to write in a language that isn't nearing > obsolescence, nor one that's still evolving. "Niche" > languages would be out of the question, as longevity could be > a problem. I think a number of people were duped by these presumptions into focusing on the longevity of the language. To me, having seen many good things come and go, I would not speculate on the longevity of anything that we could conclude might have permanence. Many languages have appeared to be "the answer for all time" only to fade into obscurity, not for lack of good qualities, but because of the money behind some other language's marketing department and the heat of passion for the new stuff in the buyer's pockets. But in the stated problem there are larger issues that have mostly gone by without discussion. Given the original problem statement, I would have to ask: - If the app is not "controlling the process itself", then what is it controlling? Given that the process varies per customer but the app does not control the process itself, then I'm going to hypothesize that the app controls information about the process, such as variations in a manufacturer's process "recipe". For example, the process produces a commodity such as gasoline, and different customers each purchase their own formulation. If the output is a custom formulation, then, after any number-crunching, the app could produce a very simple text document. Would such an application require the power of FORTRAN or C? If the I/O is mostly for data entry and display, then couldn't a raw Access databse suffice? At the very least, the data could be more easily forwarded to a newer environment than custom code. - Will the application run on a general-purpose computer or on a specific architecture? If general purpose, then survivabilty of the language (its development and operational environments) would be of primary concern. If on a specific architecture, it would make sense to write it in the machine language of that platform, provided it was fully documented with specs and functional comments. - Is the manufacturing process expected to persist without significant changes for the 30 years? If so, the app could be burned into a stable media (PROM, EEPROM, or the like). But if it would be subject to significant changes, perhaps better to maintain source and compiled versions. Having run a factory for 6 years, I understand the desire for a solution that can be created and left alone. But 20 other years in business and in systems, I know that things change, and often when least convenient and most costly to rectify. It is a good goal to want a system that will run unaltered and survive for 30 years. But will the business still be in business then? Or will the industry have changed, the need for the product in the marketplace have changed, the machinery or degree of meeting customer variation have all gone away? I think the solution to this problem does not lie in having "one right answer", but in having a data-forwarding strategy that is flexible, responsive, updatable, and maintainable. It would be better to change the app several times in the 30 years with reasonable costs than to bet on one solution that could be broken a few short years later. Just depends on what's at risk and how much of a gambler you are... So, I hope that's some food for thought... -John M. Montclair, NJ From wayne.smith at charter.net Tue Oct 18 23:03:29 2005 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:03:29 -0700 Subject: HP 9133 (Matthews, Phil) In-Reply-To: <200510190045.j9J0j586044663@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002001c5d462$145a6880$6501a8c0@Wayne> > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:36:11 -0400 > From: "Matthews, Phil" > Subject: HP 9133 > To: > Message-ID: > <53CB7766CBAB9148BCB56ABC56F408CF051921D4 at california.drso.biz> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi, > > I have been looking at your cctalk bulletin board and it > appears that Frank McConnell is someone who knows a lot about > old HP computers. I have been tasked to replace the HP 9133 > computer on some of our test equipment with new PC's. I was > hoping to contact somebody who might know if this is possible > and how to do it. So I was wondering if you knew how I could > contact Frank McConnell or somebody who might know. > > Sincerely > Phil Matthews > DRS Optronics Inc > Electrical Engineer > (321) 309-2124 > phil_matthews at drsoptronics.com A 9133 is a hard disk/floppy disk combo drive - there's no CPU. The CPU is in a separate box - probably something like a 9920, 9000/217, 9000/300, etc. Joe Rigdon is also a good bet for advice on this stuff. From sandow at proconsysint.com Tue Oct 18 12:46:42 2005 From: sandow at proconsysint.com (Steve Andow) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:46:42 -0400 Subject: MDB MLSI-DB11 (DB11-H?) Message-ID: Do you still have this board? I think the part number is MLSI-DR11BO Attached are a couple of pictures. Steve Andow Process Control Systems Int'l 11993 Ravenna Rd. Suite 5A Chardon, Ohio 44024 USA Phone: (440)286-4440 Fax: (440)286-8630 sandow at proconsysint.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 18 23:36:09 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:36:09 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <853e053075c42c39dc59284f93984752@localisp.com> References: <853e053075c42c39dc59284f93984752@localisp.com> Message-ID: <200510182136090206.2BD9DC25@10.0.0.252> On 10/18/2005 at 11:32 PM infomagic wrote: >But in the stated problem there are larger issues that have mostly gone by >without discussion... All excellent points, John. There are some areas of the business world where 20 year longevity is not unusual. Defense for one (did you know that PDP-8-based equipment is still used in servicing C-130's, for example?) Another is civilian nuclear. In this case, we're dealing with an outfit that manufactures plumbing items for nuclear reactors. Basically a foundry and machining operation, the software in question is used to determine parameters for a given customer's design. There's no direct connection with manufacturing equipment on the factory floor. It's a pretty sure bet that if they go out of business, they'll be acquired by another nuclear-involved firm. After all, the government oversees this business at some level. I believe I've answered the problem for myself--and it hearkens back to an earlier observation that I made. My answer to the customer is that we'll document the formulae, algorithms and tables involved in his software--on paper. We'll then give the customer the option of running what he has under emulation--or we can recode it for a bit more portability--at least for now. FORTRAN wouldn't be a bad solution in this case, but if he wants C or BASIC or Smalltalk, he can have it. It won't have a significant effect when it comes to having the basic operating parameters available for re-implemntation. At least that's what we're thinking now. Cheers, Chuck From news at computercollector.com Wed Oct 19 00:18:05 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 01:18:05 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Laser printer for sale Message-ID: <000901c5d46c$7cc61540$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Back in June of last year, I posted the following message: "It's a DEClaser 3500 with FIVE extra cartridges. Location is central New Jersey. The printer works well." Now it's for sale again but some details changed. Now there are four extra cartridges, not five. Also, it no longer "works well". I gave the printer to my parents, who report that it only works when it's in a good mood, and that many times it leaves a strange streak on the page. But, hey, it's DEC. That ought to interest someone. :) This sucker is HEAVY so I have no idea what it would cost to pack and ship. Anyway, make me an offer. I wouldn't mind trading for a dot-matrix ImageWriter printer/ribbons for my Apple //c. (Yes, Sellam, I know you have 87 of them, but I feel better bartering in a fair manner!) ... Or, as you all know, I'm always looking for interesting vintage handhelds. - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Oct 19 01:13:35 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:13:35 +0200 Subject: Fischer Technik and similar logic-enhanced toys (was Re: OT:Language for the ages) Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF24BC@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: woensdag 19 oktober 2005 5:25 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Fischer Technik and similar logic-enhanced toys (was > Re: OT:Language for the ages) > > On 10/19/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Real nerds use Fischer-Technik. > > I saw that stuff in the early 80s and couldn't come close to > affording it. > > > Fischer Technik has gone down spectacularly since I was a > kid. In the > > old days there were fairly simple elecrronic modules (alas so > > expensive that I couldn't afford enough of them) -- things like a > > double pole changeover relay, analogue voltage comparator, > AND gate, > > OR gate, flip-flop, monotstable, etc. > > I remember that stuff - in particular, I remember enough > logic for an elevator controller and a traffic light. > > I'd _love_ a way to home-brew some sort of snap-together logic toy. > For that matter, I'd love a way to make something like a DEC > Logic Lab from stuff around the house (i.e. - a 2 sq ft board > covered with logic and plug points)... One could use banana > jacks, etc., for the interconnects, but at retail pricing, > that would start to add up to real money real fast. > > -ethan I read a few months ago an interesting article about a virtual building blocks piece of freeware software to be downloaded from http://www.muvium.com/ It is the "link" Virtual Breadboard, but it is already also for months announced with "Coming Soon.." I regularly keep watching this site ... - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Oct 19 01:19:40 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:19:40 +0200 Subject: Fischer Technik and similar logic-enhanced toys (was Re: OT:Language for the ages) Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF24BD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: woensdag 19 oktober 2005 5:25 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Fischer Technik and similar logic-enhanced toys (was > Re: OT:Language for the ages) > > On 10/19/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Real nerds use Fischer-Technik. > > I saw that stuff in the early 80s and couldn't come close to > affording it. > > > Fischer Technik has gone down spectacularly since I was a > kid. In the > > old days there were fairly simple elecrronic modules (alas so > > expensive that I couldn't afford enough of them) -- things like a > > double pole changeover relay, analogue voltage comparator, > AND gate, > > OR gate, flip-flop, monotstable, etc. > > I remember that stuff - in particular, I remember enough > logic for an elevator controller and a traffic light. > > I'd _love_ a way to home-brew some sort of snap-together logic toy. > For that matter, I'd love a way to make something like a DEC > Logic Lab from stuff around the house (i.e. - a 2 sq ft board > covered with logic and plug points)... One could use banana > jacks, etc., for the interconnects, but at retail pricing, > that would start to add up to real money real fast. > > -ethan Oops, I feel stupid. I was watching this site for months to find out *now* that at the lower right side there are links to older versions. See "Virtual Breadboard Legacy Versions Home " with links to 1.2 and 1.0. When you click the "1.2" link you get a page which also has tutorials. Going to check that out ... - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Oct 19 02:12:12 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 02:12:12 -0500 Subject: Compute magazine (retry) In-Reply-To: <4354B5E0.5070602@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <4354B5E0.5070602@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <4355F1CC.3090801@pacbell.net> Holger Veit wrote: ... > 2. Scanning: You find a sample issue at > http://www.ais.fraunhofer.de/~veit/v2n7.pdf (2MB). This was scanned B&W > 400dpi, stored as TIF and converted with Acrobat. ... > Regards > Holger Holger, others have pointed out rightly that for low contrast pages, you have to spend some time playing with thresholding to get it to digitize OK. What I want to address here it the file size. If you assemble a PDF from a collection of page images (jpgs, TIFF) acrobat appears to simply puts a wrapper around them and that is that. If you read in a PDF and use the File/Reduce File Size... menu, it often doesn't have much effect (I think if you have high DPI images it may resample them, which may not be what you want). I tried it on your file and there was barely any reduction in size. However, if you scan the files from within acrobat (Create PDF/From scanner...), it applies a lot more intelligence to the task. It is also affected by a few of the preferences you can set. Something that has worked for me for reprocessing existing files is this procedure (I've only used it for 1 bpp images). Read in the PDF. File/Save As TIFF. This produces one TIFF page for each source page. Then use the Create PDF/From Multiple Files... and read back in all the TIFF images. It will recompress them. Now if you are using G4 compression, this will help only if the page images were encoded with something worse (like LZW). The important step is to set the preference for reading in TIF files to allow JBIG2 compression -- this saves about 20% for typical pages, and can be dramatically better for images with halftoning. The real savings come when you select JBIG2 (lossy). Yes, it does change the image in imperceptible ways. For some, this is heresy, but i'd point out that you are scanning at 1 bpp, so why be a stickler about what you get? To make this concrete, your original document is 28 pages and is 2266 KB. After my preprocessing step, it is 849 KB and looks every bit as good to my eyes. See for yourself: http://home.pacbell.net/frustum/v2n7-repacked.pdf Looking closely (like 800% magnification) your scan shows a LOT of dithering on all characters. Perhaps this is the result of the low contrast source, but more likely your scanner is doing dithering. I've seen this on the high speed office scanner at my work -- the dithering is nice visually when making copies, but it introduces a lot of edge deltas that G4 compression spend a lot of bits encoding. My cheap home scanner doesn't dither so agressively and produces smaller scans. Then zoom in on the repacked pdf that I made. The vertical edges of characters have a lot less dithering. No doubt this leads to the smaller file size. One problem that I'm wrestling with is this. If you scan via acrobat and use a grayscale or color option, acrobat tries to identify regions of pages, perhaps the whole page, that can be quantized down to 1 bpp B&W for the best compression. Sometimes it works brilliantly, other times it decides sections of a page are best encoded as jpeg images, resulting in barfalicious artifacts. From cctech at retro.co.za Wed Oct 19 03:51:40 2005 From: cctech at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:51:40 +0200 Subject: Best way to ship computers from overseas In-Reply-To: <200510181737.j9IHbQZf035373@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510181737.j9IHbQZf035373@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20051019104708.029a8cd0@alpha.ccii.co.za> Hi Chandra and all >I need to ship about 200 pounds of computers, documentation and spares from >South Africa to Boston. What? I didn't know we had computers over here that would be worth shipping anywhere... > > >How do I deal with customs? Your side? Should be easier if you could prove that they were originally made on your side of the pond? >Probably the cheapest way to deal with this is to contact the different >Airlines and set up an airport to airport delivery. You might have to settle >for South Africa to New York. Not sure there are direct flights from South >Aftrica to Boston. SAA flies to Atlanta. If you're not in a hurry, stick it on a ship. Takes most of a year, or maybe it just feels like it, but it mostly gets there. W From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Oct 19 05:35:59 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:35:59 +0200 Subject: Best way to ship computers from overseas In-Reply-To: <200510181251.j9ICpVtY022842@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <43563DAF.26238.584AECA@localhost> Am 18 Oct 2005 8:41 meinte Chandra Bajpai: > I need to ship about 200 pounds of computers, documentation and spares from > South Africa to Boston. ;) > Any suggestions on shipping this economically (and safely). It seems FedEx > is quite expensive does not make economic sense for me..are there alternate > carriers or methods (e.g. via Ship) that make sense to Look at? Well, FedEX (and DHL or UPS) are don't care shipers ... you shoule never care about the price :) If it would be about a larger shipment, I'd say go for one of the real ship (ed. the things that float on water) companies. I had quite good experience with TTC (totaltrans.com). THey spend quite some time to help a total beginner like me to get my stuff arround the globe at quite good rates. I also tried to get quotes from the bigger players (like Menlo - except, they where the incompetent and unresponsive I ever talked to). Regarding the small amount of Computergear you have, what about a trip to Boston with your Whife and maybe a friend? 70 pund free each (maybe more if you're some kind of elite card holder) If you're lucky, you get a flight for arround 400 Euro per person ... still way below whe UPS & Co charge. And a few days off... > How do I deal with customs? Declartation is everything. The shipment company will require detailed papers. It also helps quite a lot if you're present at the deciveing customs office. Usualy, when I get stuff from outside the EU, I make them to foreward it 'sealed' to Munich, and handle customs myself. This is the perfect spot to use you Geek-Powers: talk to the customs officer, explain what it is, give him dreamy comments about all the technical details. The result is a win-winn situation, you have fun telling, and they somehow speed up the process quite much. The last 6 palletes of stuff I got from california, I had a tax payment of less than 20 USD :) Now, if you take the stuff in your baggage, the checks in the US are rather nominal. Even before TSA, did the US pay the larges boarderservice I know with the least intense checks I know. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From david at cantrell.org.uk Wed Oct 19 06:53:34 2005 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:53:34 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051014143009.03b9a2b0@mail.30below.com> References: <200510141121420889.150DEDF8@10.0.0.252> <5.1.0.14.2.20051014143009.03b9a2b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20051019115333.GA19491@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Fri, Oct 14, 2005 at 02:36:29PM -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: > >Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process that > >will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years... > >What would you write it in? > > If for some inane reason, Forth isn't a contender, then I'd pick Perl > 4.0.x. It's stable, still being used, and runs on equipment as old as an > Atari ST. And, I *think* it's ontopic. If not, it's really close. I'd not pick perl 4. It's not being maintained. You have to assume that the hardware running the program may need replacing, and that an identical replacement may not be available. And then you'll find that it no longer builds on any new hardware/OS/compiler you can buy. I'd go for strictly ANSI-standard C, on some species of toughened, sealed PC. That said, I've been maintaining a computer and program used for running a small business's production equipment (boilers and stuff for making aromatherapy oils) for the past 13 years. I wrote the program in Z80 assembler, and it runs under CP/M on an Amstrad CPC. Every year, I've gone there, blown the dust bunnies out of the drive, a couple of times I've replaced the drive belt, once I had to re-solder the video connector and once I used some silver paint to fix a broken trace on the keyboard wossname. But after I do the routine checks and maintenance this year, I'm going to tell the guy that he's renewing the maintenance agreement for the last time. Yes, it's easy money, and I could do it for at least another two or three years before I can no longer trust my spare drive belts, but it would be easier for me if he just moved to something a bit more modern. My maintenance fees would be higher too, given that modern hardware is not so easily repairable :-) -- David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic Nuke a disabled unborn gay baby whale for JESUS! From news at computercollector.com Wed Oct 19 07:19:01 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:19:01 -0400 Subject: Insanely OT -- but very funny Message-ID: <000601c5d4a7$4aa743f0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Attack of the Gaming Grannies http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/oct2005/id20051018_173699.htm ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From news at computercollector.com Wed Oct 19 07:37:43 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:37:43 -0400 Subject: Once again slightly OT Message-ID: <000801c5d4a9$e795c180$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Memorial service for former HP chief http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/news/editorial/12939854.htm Okay, I'm done now, honest. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 07:37:55 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:37:55 -0400 Subject: Insanely OT -- but very funny In-Reply-To: <000601c5d4a7$4aa743f0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> References: <000601c5d4a7$4aa743f0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <43563E23.5020207@gmail.com> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Attack of the Gaming Grannies > > http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/oct2005/id20051018_173699.htm What in the hell is a "Pentium 286"? Peace... Sridhar From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Oct 19 07:40:28 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:40:28 +0100 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: <4354CF60.4090401@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43563EBC.509@gjcp.net> Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > Gotta love it when the golden-eared folks apply RF transmission-line > theory to speaker cabling. My scepticism towards audiophile snake-oil > comes via heredity (my late father spent 40+ years in the industry). Oh, I know. I love it when people say how they spend so much time, effort and money to get the best possible sound quality, and it's the only way to appreciate music. You tend to find that these people are only listening to orchestral music, for some reason. I like to point out that as a musician, I'm interested in the music *sounding good*, not a perfect reproduction. If I want to hear an orchestra I will go to a concert. No recording will ever faithfully duplicate it, simply because the physics involved in producing the sound is different. Gordon. From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Oct 19 07:52:53 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:52:53 -0400 (edt) Subject: Insanely OT -- but very funny In-Reply-To: <43563E23.5020207@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Oct 19, 05 08:37:55 am Message-ID: <200510191252.IAA11691@wordstock.com> And thusly Sridhar Ayengar spake: > > 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > > Attack of the Gaming Grannies > > > > http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/oct2005/id20051018_173699.htm > > What in the hell is a "Pentium 286"? A computer able to play Wolfenstein 3D, but because of small math issues, allows enemies to shoot you through the walls? Cheers, Bryan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 08:03:34 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:03:34 -0400 Subject: Insanely OT -- but very funny In-Reply-To: <200510191252.IAA11691@wordstock.com> References: <200510191252.IAA11691@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <43564426.1020709@gmail.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly Sridhar Ayengar spake: > >>'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >> >>> Attack of the Gaming Grannies >>> >>>http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/oct2005/id20051018_173699.htm >> >>What in the hell is a "Pentium 286"? > > > A computer able to play Wolfenstein 3D, but because of small math issues, > allows enemies to shoot you through the walls? Bryan, for that you get a gold star. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Oct 19 08:04:33 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:04:33 +0200 Subject: Insanely OT -- but very funny In-Reply-To: <43563E23.5020207@gmail.com> References: <000601c5d4a7$4aa743f0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <43566081.7548.60CB164@localhost> Am 19 Oct 2005 8:37 meinte Sridhar Ayengar: > 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > > Attack of the Gaming Grannies > > http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/oct2005/id20051018_173699.htm > What in the hell is a "Pentium 286"? I don't know, but I deduct it must be some precessor to the Intel x86 line, since it was around about 20,30 years ago, so from 1975 on, wich clearly makes it an 8 Bit machine, maybe a sideline from the 8080? We all know that companies like to reuse names - or what else is the similarity between a 1966 Shelby Mustang GT and a 2006 Mustang GT? After all, back then there wehre a lot of processors in even more different computers :) Maybe it was a special development for Atari, since they say it was the machine the couple did run PONG on. After all, it's businessweek, a magazin our econimic power people trust, so it must be true. H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From news at computercollector.com Wed Oct 19 08:14:24 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:14:24 -0400 Subject: Insanely OT -- but very funny In-Reply-To: <43566081.7548.60CB164@localhost> Message-ID: <000c01c5d4af$07a69490$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> LOL, I'm going to be really ticked if my own post turns into a bash-the-media thread. That'll teach me to go OT, huh? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Hans Franke Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Insanely OT -- but very funny Am 19 Oct 2005 8:37 meinte Sridhar Ayengar: > 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > > Attack of the Gaming Grannies > > http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/oct2005/id20051018_1736 > > 99.htm > What in the hell is a "Pentium 286"? I don't know, but I deduct it must be some precessor to the Intel x86 line, since it was around about 20,30 years ago, so from 1975 on, wich clearly makes it an 8 Bit machine, maybe a sideline from the 8080? We all know that companies like to reuse names - or what else is the similarity between a 1966 Shelby Mustang GT and a 2006 Mustang GT? After all, back then there wehre a lot of processors in even more different computers :) Maybe it was a special development for Atari, since they say it was the machine the couple did run PONG on. After all, it's businessweek, a magazin our econimic power people trust, so it must be true. H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From mmaginnis at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 08:22:58 2005 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:22:58 -0600 Subject: Insanely OT -- but very funny In-Reply-To: <000c01c5d4af$07a69490$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> References: <43566081.7548.60CB164@localhost> <000c01c5d4af$07a69490$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: I don't think demanding technical accuracy (especially in an article about tech) counts as media-bashing... - Mike On 10/19/05, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > LOL, I'm going to be really ticked if my own post turns into a > bash-the-media thread. That'll teach me to go OT, huh? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Hans Franke > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:05 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Insanely OT -- but very funny > > Am 19 Oct 2005 8:37 meinte Sridhar Ayengar: > > > 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > > > Attack of the Gaming Grannies > > > > http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/oct2005/id20051018_1736 > > > 99.htm > > > What in the hell is a "Pentium 286"? > > > I don't know, but I deduct it must be some precessor to the Intel x86 line, > since it was around about 20,30 years ago, so from 1975 on, wich clearly > makes it an 8 Bit machine, maybe a sideline from the 8080? We all know that > companies like to reuse names - or what else is the similarity between a > 1966 Shelby Mustang GT and a 2006 Mustang GT? > > After all, back then there wehre a lot of processors in even more different > computers :) Maybe it was a special development for Atari, since they say it > was the machine the couple did run PONG on. After all, it's businessweek, a > magazin our econimic power people trust, so it must be true. > > H. > -- > VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > From news at computercollector.com Wed Oct 19 08:32:17 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:32:17 -0400 Subject: Insanely OT -- but very funny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001301c5d4b1$876043a0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> I made no such accusation. I only joked that the thread could become that way, which would be ironic, given my history on cctalk of defending against that. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Maginnis Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:23 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Insanely OT -- but very funny I don't think demanding technical accuracy (especially in an article about tech) counts as media-bashing... - Mike On 10/19/05, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > LOL, I'm going to be really ticked if my own post turns into a > bash-the-media thread. That'll teach me to go OT, huh? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Hans Franke > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:05 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Insanely OT -- but very funny > > Am 19 Oct 2005 8:37 meinte Sridhar Ayengar: > > > 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > > > Attack of the Gaming Grannies > > > > http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/oct2005/id20051018_17 > > > 36 > > > 99.htm > > > What in the hell is a "Pentium 286"? > > > I don't know, but I deduct it must be some precessor to the Intel x86 > line, since it was around about 20,30 years ago, so from 1975 on, wich > clearly makes it an 8 Bit machine, maybe a sideline from the 8080? We > all know that companies like to reuse names - or what else is the > similarity between a > 1966 Shelby Mustang GT and a 2006 Mustang GT? > > After all, back then there wehre a lot of processors in even more > different computers :) Maybe it was a special development for Atari, > since they say it was the machine the couple did run PONG on. After > all, it's businessweek, a magazin our econimic power people trust, so it must be true. > > H. > -- > VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > From charlesmorris at direcway.com Wed Oct 19 08:31:24 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris at direcway.com) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:31:24 -0400 Subject: Filters for RL02 Message-ID: <4753c5c47572a0.47572a04753c5c@direcway.com> Gordon recently mentioned that he had a dwindling supply of absolute filters for his RL02 drive. They are still readily available from several sources including Air Filtration Products (airfiltrationprod.com) and isesurplus.com. I just ordered one from The Filter Factory (www.thefilterfactory.com) for $28.95 plus UPS. -Charles From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 19 08:47:41 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:47:41 +0100 Subject: Bell and Howell "Digital Video Presentation" system Message-ID: <43564E7D.4020007@yahoo.co.uk> We've just been offered one of these - I'm assuming (awaiting further details) that it's a rebadged Apple II Plus, as in: http://oldcomputers.net/bellandhowell.html ... but that doesn't mention the "Digital Video Presentation" side of it, or even any video extras over and above what the II Plus has. Anyone know any more details? Did Bell and Howell ever do any other computer-based systems? I will get some more info from the owner (and they have the full doc set apparently), but I'm being impatient :-) cheers Jules From news at computercollector.com Wed Oct 19 09:13:45 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:13:45 -0400 Subject: Insanely OT -- but very funny In-Reply-To: <001301c5d4b1$876043a0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <002b01c5d4b7$534ee430$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> I just called a friend who's a tech writer at BW. Says he will tell the corrections desk and they'll fix it ASAP. I'm sure it was just someone's brain fart. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:32 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Insanely OT -- but very funny I made no such accusation. I only joked that the thread could become that way, which would be ironic, given my history on cctalk of defending against that. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Maginnis Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:23 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Insanely OT -- but very funny I don't think demanding technical accuracy (especially in an article about tech) counts as media-bashing... - Mike On 10/19/05, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > LOL, I'm going to be really ticked if my own post turns into a > bash-the-media thread. That'll teach me to go OT, huh? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Hans Franke > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:05 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Insanely OT -- but very funny > > Am 19 Oct 2005 8:37 meinte Sridhar Ayengar: > > > 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > > > Attack of the Gaming Grannies > > > > http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/oct2005/id20051018_17 > > > 36 > > > 99.htm > > > What in the hell is a "Pentium 286"? > > > I don't know, but I deduct it must be some precessor to the Intel x86 > line, since it was around about 20,30 years ago, so from 1975 on, wich > clearly makes it an 8 Bit machine, maybe a sideline from the 8080? We > all know that companies like to reuse names - or what else is the > similarity between a > 1966 Shelby Mustang GT and a 2006 Mustang GT? > > After all, back then there wehre a lot of processors in even more > different computers :) Maybe it was a special development for Atari, > since they say it was the machine the couple did run PONG on. After > all, it's businessweek, a magazin our econimic power people trust, so > it must be true. > > H. > -- > VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Oct 19 09:26:52 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:26:52 +0200 Subject: Insanely OT -- but very funny In-Reply-To: <002b01c5d4b7$534ee430$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> References: <001301c5d4b1$876043a0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <435673CC.15735.6580DB0@localhost> Am 19 Oct 2005 10:13 meinte 'Computer Collector Newslette: > I just called a friend who's a tech writer at BW. Says he will tell the > corrections desk and they'll fix it ASAP. Thanks, but you just killed a nice article in an online magazine, where I used that article as a great example. Just by fixing the Pentium 286 it's still not right, but was less usable as an example. > I'm sure it was just someone's brain fart. So what? correcting history, just because it was someones fart ? Hans -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From news at computercollector.com Wed Oct 19 10:23:48 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:23:48 -0400 Subject: Insanely OT -- but very funny In-Reply-To: <435673CC.15735.6580DB0@localhost> Message-ID: <000f01c5d4c1$1ae3cac0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> >>> So what? correcting history, just because it was someones fart ? Huh? You'd prefer they leave the mistake? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Hans Franke Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 10:27 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Insanely OT -- but very funny Am 19 Oct 2005 10:13 meinte 'Computer Collector Newslette: > I just called a friend who's a tech writer at BW. Says he will tell > the corrections desk and they'll fix it ASAP. Thanks, but you just killed a nice article in an online magazine, where I used that article as a great example. Just by fixing the Pentium 286 it's still not right, but was less usable as an example. > I'm sure it was just someone's brain fart. So what? correcting history, just because it was someones fart ? Hans -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From kth at srv.net Wed Oct 19 10:40:54 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:40:54 -0600 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: <4354CF60.4090401@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43566906.2080204@srv.net> Steven N. Hirsch wrote: >Gotta love it when the golden-eared folks apply RF transmission-line >theory to speaker cabling. My scepticism towards audiophile snake-oil >comes via heredity (my late father spent 40+ years in the industry). > > The snake-oil industry? From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Oct 19 10:51:13 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:51:13 +0200 Subject: Insanely OT -- but very funny In-Reply-To: <000f01c5d4c1$1ae3cac0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> References: <435673CC.15735.6580DB0@localhost> Message-ID: <43568791.31273.6A5469C@localhost> Am 19 Oct 2005 11:23 meinte 'Computer Collector Newsletter': > >>> So what? correcting history, just because it was someones fart ? > > Huh? You'd prefer they leave the mistake? Yes, because the whole article is crap, and changing the most obvious details doesn't help - but it makes it harder to use the article as an example about how bad it is, that can be understood by Joe Average. Evan, I perfectly know the urge to correct such things. It's the first that surfaces in my mind. But I also learnd that interventing and correcting a few things isn't helpful at all. The author will go ahead and write the next one with the same sloopy research and again earn the money, while yll you get is at best a soulless thank you (This thank you has been printed by a computer and does not need to be signed...). Gruss (grumpy old) H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 19 10:58:15 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:58:15 -0600 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <43566906.2080204@srv.net> References: <4354CF60.4090401@gjcp.net> <43566906.2080204@srv.net> Message-ID: <43566D17.7000406@jetnet.ab.ca> Kevin Handy wrote: > Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > >> Gotta love it when the golden-eared folks apply RF transmission-line >> theory to speaker cabling. My scepticism towards audiophile >> snake-oil comes via heredity (my late father spent 40+ years in the >> industry). >> >> > The snake-oil industry? So how many people oil their snakes? It does seem hard to get a good Hi Fi system nowdays with all the snake oil parts as you have just so cheap stuff on the low end, and gimics on the high end. With audio nobody gives any useful specs now days -- THD is done into a dummy load never a real speaker. What about IM distortion too? PS. I listen to regular music; classical I find too heavy. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 11:08:24 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:08:24 -0400 Subject: Insanely OT -- but very funny In-Reply-To: References: <43566081.7548.60CB164@localhost> <000c01c5d4af$07a69490$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <43566F78.70904@gmail.com> Mike Maginnis wrote: > I don't think demanding technical accuracy (especially in an article > about tech) counts as media-bashing... Although, to be fair, I was being pretty sarcastic. Peace... Sridhar From news at computercollector.com Wed Oct 19 11:17:53 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:17:53 -0400 Subject: Insanely OT -- but very funny In-Reply-To: <43568791.31273.6A5469C@localhost> Message-ID: <001e01c5d4c8$a97d3530$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> >>> The author will go ahead and write the next one with the same sloopy research Simple mistake of one word for another is a long way from sloppy research. That's a massive assumption you are making. Anyway, geez, I though people would be interested in the game-playing grandmas! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Hans Franke Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 11:51 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Insanely OT -- but very funny Am 19 Oct 2005 11:23 meinte 'Computer Collector Newsletter': > >>> So what? correcting history, just because it was someones fart ? > > Huh? You'd prefer they leave the mistake? Yes, because the whole article is crap, and changing the most obvious details doesn't help - but it makes it harder to use the article as an example about how bad it is, that can be understood by Joe Average. Evan, I perfectly know the urge to correct such things. It's the first that surfaces in my mind. But I also learnd that interventing and correcting a few things isn't helpful at all. The author will go ahead and write the next one with the same sloopy research and again earn the money, while yll you get is at best a soulless thank you (This thank you has been printed by a computer and does not need to be signed...). Gruss (grumpy old) H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Oct 19 11:21:23 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:21:23 +0100 Subject: IBM System/34 with diskettes & documentation available in Iowa In-Reply-To: <200510182213.j9IMD3l4035949@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510182213.j9IMD3l4035949@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <43567283.30500@gjcp.net> Gil Carrick wrote: > > One of the few nice things about getting older is that one can now > appreciate those of the opposite sex that have become Vintage Computers > along with us (63 here). > > ;) > > Our children have more limited scope. Of course, there are those of us in the younger end of the age range who have a geeky "other half". Although apparently I'm not allowed to go and buy that PDP-8/I off eBay. It seems that the 11/73, MicroVAX II and the risk of bringing my 11/34 and 11/84s down here are enough... I did consider parting with the PDP-11/73 but my gf wouldn't let me. Not a common problem, I suspect. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Oct 19 11:27:51 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:27:51 +0100 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051018154308.I81758@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <4350C257.8080601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051017130233.V24559@shell.lmi.net> <20051017173050.H39125@shell.lmi.net> <4354C94C.2030907@gjcp.net> <20051018154308.I81758@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43567407.9090001@gjcp.net> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>Actually, I AGREE with those size recommendations. >>>I LIKE having 8 bit chars, 16 bit ints, 32 bit longs; >>>but there are some bizarre vintage implementations out there, >>>and on the old stuff, you can not count on a specific size. >> > On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >>But only because the hardware you're used to using C on suits these sizes. > > > You're absolutely right. > I like those sizes, because they're a good fit with my hardware. ... therefore using an 18-bit int would be silly. If you were using a machine with a 9-bit byte length (not parity, actually 9 bits) then it wouldn't seem such a bad idea. Gordon. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 19 11:23:34 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:23:34 -0400 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" Message-ID: <0IOM006BH85Z8RB2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" > From: woodelf > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:58:15 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Kevin Handy wrote: > >> Steven N. Hirsch wrote: >> >>> Gotta love it when the golden-eared folks apply RF transmission-line >>> theory to speaker cabling. My scepticism towards audiophile >>> snake-oil comes via heredity (my late father spent 40+ years in the >>> industry). >>> >>> >> The snake-oil industry? > >So how many people oil their snakes? It does seem hard to get a good >Hi Fi system nowdays with all the snake oil parts as you have just so cheap >stuff on the low end, and gimics on the high end. With audio nobody gives >any useful specs now days -- THD is done into a dummy load never a >real speaker. What about IM distortion too? PS. I listen to regular music; >classical I find too heavy. Every time I need an amp for audio, I build one. I have no excuse, I did audio consoles and the like. None of the chips have decent specs and reasonable solid state designs with transistor or power MOSFETs are not hard to cook up. What amuses me are the systems that have a wallwart (not switch mode either!) as a PS and claim more than 10-15W of power out. I include those that have a PS inside that is barely a wallwart. A typical wallwart can't provide that and a real amp that can do that needs a better source of power. Computer speakers are amoung the worst with the claims, most are outright fraud. Allison From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 19 11:43:08 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:43:08 -0400 Subject: IBM System/34 with diskettes & documentation available in Iowa References: <200510182213.j9IMD3l4035949@keith.ezwind.net> <43567283.30500@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <019501c5d4cc$3037b020$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I did consider parting with the PDP-11/73 but my gf wouldn't > let me. Not a common problem, I suspect. Please tell us where you found this girlfriend. John A. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 19 11:48:32 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:48:32 -0600 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <43567407.9090001@gjcp.net> References: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <4350C257.8080601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051017130233.V24559@shell.lmi.net> <20051017173050.H39125@shell.lmi.net> <4354C94C.2030907@gjcp.net> <20051018154308.I81758@shell.lmi.net> <43567407.9090001@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <435678E0.9020900@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> >> You're absolutely right. >> I like those sizes, because they're a good fit with my hardware. > > > ... therefore using an 18-bit int would be silly. If you were using a > machine with a 9-bit byte length (not parity, actually 9 bits) then it > wouldn't seem such a bad idea. Strange -- my hardware is just like that ( When I get it finshed ) . The PDP-10 has done that already. Oddly this homebrew I am working can't do real C, since now C is almost allways 32 bit code and I've got only a whoopping 64kb of ram. :( I think a 20 bit int is also a nice size too and 10 bit bytes. > > Gordon. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 19 12:07:06 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:07:06 -0400 Subject: OT: Language for the ages Message-ID: <0IOM000V5A6JXY10@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT: Language for the ages > From: woodelf > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:48:32 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >>> >>> You're absolutely right. >>> I like those sizes, because they're a good fit with my hardware. >> >> >> ... therefore using an 18-bit int would be silly. If you were using a >> machine with a 9-bit byte length (not parity, actually 9 bits) then it >> wouldn't seem such a bad idea. > >Strange -- my hardware is just like that ( When I get it finshed ) . >The PDP-10 has done that already. >Oddly this homebrew I am working can't do real C, since now C is almost >allways 32 bit code and >I've got only a whoopping 64kb of ram. :( I think a 20 bit int is >also a nice size too and 10 bit bytes. > >> >> Gordon. CDC6000 or was it the Interdata 8/32 used a nine bit char. Funny thing about all this. I see focus on the char, int and longs and pointers with little regard to is the machine Von or Harvard and other considerations such as base machine registers, addressing modes and conditional branch capabilities. All that is needed is enough bits to do the task(s) desired. There is a point where standard C doesnt fit well enough to justify it. That doesnt negate a subset however. Allison From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Oct 19 12:11:02 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:11:02 +0100 Subject: Insanely OT -- but very funny In-Reply-To: <43568791.31273.6A5469C@localhost> Message-ID: <001901c5d4d0$1672de40$5b01a8c0@pc1> Hans Franke wrote: > Am 19 Oct 2005 11:23 meinte 'Computer Collector Newsletter': > >>>>> So what? correcting history, just because it was someones fart ? >> >> Huh? You'd prefer they leave the mistake? > > Yes, because the whole article is crap, and changing the most obvious > details doesn't help - but it makes it harder to use the article as > an example about how bad it is, that can be understood by Joe > Average. You can probably still get to the broken version via the web archive ... in which case everyone wins. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Oct 19 12:42:09 2005 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:42:09 -0400 Subject: tapetools and VMS Backup tapes Message-ID: > (1600 bpi), and some report a few hundred records of 16384, then a few > at a smaller number, then more at 16384, etc. I'd think there were > some read problems, but the tape wasn't shoe-shining Are the "smaller sized" records 80 bytes, and have tape marks near them? If so, these are the ANSI tape labels for volume start/end and saveset start/end. Even though you mount VMS BACKUP tapes /FOREIGN on a VMS system, they still have ANSI labels on them. If there are truly damaged records then the redundancy blocks (unless you turned them off) will help you. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 19 12:51:37 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:51:37 -0700 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <435678E0.9020900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20051015082647.6607C200CFA2@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <4350C257.8080601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051017130233.V24559@shell.lmi.net> <20051017173050.H39125@shell.lmi.net> <4354C94C.2030907@gjcp.net> <20051018154308.I81758@shell.lmi.net> <43567407.9090001@gjcp.net> <435678E0.9020900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200510191051370620.2EB22227@10.0.0.252> On 10/19/2005 at 10:48 AM woodelf wrote: >Strange -- my hardware is just like that ( When I get it finshed ) . >The PDP-10 has done that already. >Oddly this homebrew I am working can't do real C, since now C is almost >allways 32 bit code and >I've got only a whoopping 64kb of ram. :( I think a 20 bit int is >also a nice size too and 10 bit bytes. Shades of the CDC 6000! The native character set was 6 bit "display code", but when the time came to implement goodies like lower-case, the agony started. What to do? There were several proposals running around for the 60-bit word. 12-bit bytes; 10 bit-bit bytes; even 8-bit bytes (packed 7.5 to a word with references to something called a "snaque"). IIRC, eventually, an escape-sequence scheme was worked out--0000 (octal) was defined as an end-of-line; 00-anything else was defined as an extended character. I don't recall that anyone ever seriously suggested 7-bit characters, but it would have made sense--8 to a word. Cheers, Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Oct 19 14:08:45 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 26, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: References: <200510142308.j9EN8cb8064907@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Oct 2005, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 18:08 -0500 10/14/05, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> >Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing process >> that >> >will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years.... > > Also depends on how inviolate the code must be, and how verifiable the > system. If you need to re-create the system, FORTH can be implemented with a > lot fewer gates of hardware and a lot fewer lines of code than JAVA - and > would therefore be a lot easier to verify, if you need to design/build new > hardware to run your legacy code on in 25 years. > -- > - Mark > 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 > > Hi Forth is also one of the few languages that can readily be created from scratch on most computer platforms. Most other languages, you are tied to some vendor to supply a compiler for you. Once the core is running, the levels of high level constructs can be easily replicated on some future machine using the original code. This does assume that they will still be using basically a Von Neumann type design or a Harvard like machine, such as the x86 has become. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 19 14:21:56 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:21:56 -0700 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <0IOM006BH85Z8RB2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOM006BH85Z8RB2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510191221560967.2F04D343@10.0.0.252> On 10/19/2005 at 12:23 PM Allison wrote: >> >>Subject: Re: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" >> From: woodelf >> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:58:15 -0600 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> >>Kevin Handy wrote: >> >>> Steven N. Hirsch wrote: >>> >>>> Gotta love it when the golden-eared folks apply RF transmission-line >>>> theory to speaker cabling. My scepticism towards audiophile >>>> snake-oil comes via heredity (my late father spent 40+ years in the >>>> industry). >>>> >>>> >>> The snake-oil industry? >> >>So how many people oil their snakes? It does seem hard to get a good >>Hi Fi system nowdays with all the snake oil parts as you have just so >cheap >>stuff on the low end, and gimics on the high end. With audio nobody gives >>any useful specs now days -- THD is done into a dummy load never a >>real speaker. What about IM distortion too? PS. I listen to regular >music; >>classical I find too heavy. > >Every time I need an amp for audio, I build one. I have no excuse, I did >audio consoles and the like. None of the chips have decent specs and >reasonable solid state designs with transistor or power MOSFETs are >not hard to cook up. > >What amuses me are the systems that have a wallwart (not switch mode >either!) >as a PS and claim more than 10-15W of power out. I include those that have >a PS inside that is barely a wallwart. A typical wallwart can't provide >that and a real amp that can do that needs a better source of power. >Computer speakers are amoung the worst with the claims, most are outright >fraud. > > >Allison From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 19 14:43:25 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:43:25 -0700 Subject: Expensive tin ears - was: Public Service Announcement: In-Reply-To: <43563EBC.509@gjcp.net> References: <4354CF60.4090401@gjcp.net> <43563EBC.509@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200510191243250443.2F187C52@10.0.0.252> On 10/19/2005 at 1:40 PM Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >Oh, I know. I love it when people say how they spend so much time, >effort and money to get the best possible sound quality, and it's the >only way to appreciate music. You tend to find that these people are >only listening to orchestral music, for some reason. I like to point >out that as a musician, I'm interested in the music *sounding good*, not >a perfect reproduction. If I want to hear an orchestra I will go to a >concert. No recording will ever faithfully duplicate it, simply because >the physics involved in producing the sound is different. This brings to mind an occurrence that happened in the pre-CD audiophile days. All names are changed to protect the embarrassed. A friend who'd hit it big time by having a software firm he helped found purchased by a major competitor celebrated by ordering a platinum flute from Powell and buying a multi-kilobuck stereo system, complete with Decca moving-coil cartridge in the tonearm. He invited some of us over for dinner to show off his hardware and put on a Quantz flute concerto as a demonstration. It was all very nice, and someone asked what the work played was. "It's the Quantz flute concerto in G minor" replied Martin. My friend Dave says, "It can't be--that was in B minor". Martin gets the disc and shows Dave the label--but Dave is adamant (IIRC, Dave had a fairly low-end stereo system himself). Martin remembers that he has the sheet music and digs it out. It evolves after some careful listening that the labels on the disc were "flipped"--the "B" side label had been put on the "A" side and vice-versa. Musically-erudite Martin is very red-faced at the discovery by Dave who doesn't even know the work in question but who has golden ears. The quality of the sound system doesn't much matter to me--I'm still using the University 3-way speakers I picked up sometime in the 60's driven by a receiver I bought at Costco 15 years ago--it's plenty loud. My speaker cables are zip cord. Actually, I'm happy enough listening to a work on my 60's era Sony 10-transistor AM/FM lugaroiund (germanium transistors--great sensitivity and only 3 "D" cells for power). Matters of haromonic construction, part interplay and technique (intonation and rhythm) occupy most of my listening energy, with fidelity not mattering too much--although it's nice to have stereophonic sound for antiphonal works so the parts can be easily distinguished. Color me a sonic Luddite. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 19 15:06:59 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:06:59 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 26, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: References: <200510142308.j9EN8cb8064907@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4356A763.9010200@yahoo.co.uk> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > On Sun, 16 Oct 2005, Mark Tapley wrote: > >> At 18:08 -0500 10/14/05, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> >>> >Suppose you wanted to write an application for a manufacturing >>> process that >>> >will, in all probability, run for the next 30 years.... >> >> >> Also depends on how inviolate the code must be, and how verifiable the >> system. If you need to re-create the system, FORTH can be implemented >> with a lot fewer gates of hardware and a lot fewer lines of code than >> JAVA - and would therefore be a lot easier to verify, if you need to >> design/build new hardware to run your legacy code on in 25 years. >> -- >> - Mark >> 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 >> >> > > Hi > Forth is also one of the few languages that can readily be created from > scratch on most computer platforms. Most other languages, you are tied > to some vendor to supply a compiler for you. True, assuming you can't write a compiler (or find one from somewhere) - or do you mean that the language spec isn't available for most languages without at least shelling out $$$ (I'd be surprised if that were the case, but stranger things have happened) From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Oct 19 15:23:08 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:23:08 -0500 Subject: Filters for RL02 In-Reply-To: <4753c5c47572a0.47572a04753c5c@direcway.com> Message-ID: That's the best price I've seen so far for RL02 absolutes - I may even buy a couple spares ;). Speaking of filters, did H96xx cabinets usually have a filter velcroed to the inside of the back door from the factory, or was that something someone added to my machine? My back door came with one. My BA11-K box has something similar set up in the front, 3 strips of velcro for what looks like may have been a filter. I'm not that sure because I never had the front panel for that particular box. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of charlesmorris at direcway.com Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:31 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Filters for RL02 Gordon recently mentioned that he had a dwindling supply of absolute filters for his RL02 drive. They are still readily available from several sources including Air Filtration Products (airfiltrationprod.com) and isesurplus.com. I just ordered one from The Filter Factory (www.thefilterfactory.com) for $28.95 plus UPS. -Charles From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Oct 19 16:11:25 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:11:25 -0500 Subject: Thoroughly cleaning an RL02 Message-ID: Hey everyone! I need some help. I have an RL02 disk drive that sat in a warehouse for awhile, and somehow it got spiders (and their webs) in it, and the previous owner contaminated the drive by shipping it exposed in foam and the foam got all over the inside of the drive. What's the best method to disassemble and clean an RL02 disk drive in this situation? There's none in the drive platter area, but it's all down in the cavity below it. Thanks Julian From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 19 16:18:49 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:18:49 -0700 Subject: Computer speedometers Message-ID: <200510191418490751.2F6FD4AD@10.0.0.252> I was reminiscing to someone about an old GE mainframe with an analog meter that registered Kops/sec. I'm sure it was little more than an RC integrator hooked to the RNI signal reading out on a voltmeter, but it seemed pretty spiffy at the time. Has anyone done a similar thing with their vintage systems? On the 8080, the M1 signal could be used; I'm not sure offhand about other processors. I know--it's more simple amusement for a simple mind...but then, blinking lights always fascinated me. Cheers, Chuck From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Wed Oct 19 16:20:43 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:20:43 -0500 Subject: Message for Jay West Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I've been trying to give Jay a link to my PDP11 board, but haven't heard back from him. When I spoke to him in person, he asked I resend him the link, and I have several times and haven't heard back so I figured my mail was getting filtered. Anyway, sorry to spam the list with this, but I couldn't think of any other way to get ahold of him. Jay, that address is http://pdpusers.dyndns.org - title is "PDP-11 User Community" (as I'll be working to get more than just a message board up on it soon) Sorry everyone. Thanks Jay! Julian From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Oct 19 16:32:36 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:32:36 -0500 Subject: Computer speedometers In-Reply-To: <200510191418490751.2F6FD4AD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: You're not alone. Among the things I'm adding to the 11/23PLUS I have, I purchased a SCSI enclosure with several 5.25" bays. In those bays I'll be putting a 5.25" speaker unit hooked to a DECtalk, a pair of analog gauges meant for PCs that have system CPU speed and fan speed readouts on them (once I figure out how they work!) and a serially controlled readout for www.crystalfontz.com that shows random things like disk usage and whatnot. It may even get neon lights underneath the cabinet, for...GROUND EFFECTS! Alright, so I'm getting carried away, but why not? It's my computer :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:19 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Computer speedometers I was reminiscing to someone about an old GE mainframe with an analog meter that registered Kops/sec. I'm sure it was little more than an RC integrator hooked to the RNI signal reading out on a voltmeter, but it seemed pretty spiffy at the time. Has anyone done a similar thing with their vintage systems? On the 8080, the M1 signal could be used; I'm not sure offhand about other processors. I know--it's more simple amusement for a simple mind...but then, blinking lights always fascinated me. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 16:45:30 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:45:30 +1300 Subject: tapetools and VMS Backup tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/20/05, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Are the "smaller sized" records 80 bytes, and have tape marks > near them? If so, these are the ANSI tape labels for volume start/end > and saveset start/end. No. I would have recognized them if they had been such. These smaller blocks are anywhere from 9K up to but not quite 16K. > If there are truly damaged records then the redundancy blocks > (unless you turned them off) will help you. I wouldn't have turned off the redundancy blocks - these tapes were meant to be archival. I wrote them on brand-new, never-written 3M Blackwatch tapes, at 1600 bpi, not 6250, in the hopes of more longevity. If I hadn't been gallavanting around the world over the past couple of years, I would have read these before, but here we are. I know they aren't a total loss, and I _do_ still have the hard drive these came from, but I figured I'd rather fiddle with tapes first and an ancient Fuji Eagle second (especially since the Eagle hangs off of an SI9900 attached to an 11/750 - something I haven't turned on since the day Software Results closed. Thanks for the confirmation. -ethan P.S. - nobody asked, but I _did_ clean the heads and rollers between each tape. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 19 16:52:24 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:52:24 -0700 Subject: Computer speedometers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510191452240418.2F8E9264@10.0.0.252> On 10/19/2005 at 4:32 PM Julian Wolfe wrote: >Alright, so I'm getting carried away, but why not? It's my computer :) Well sure, why not? If you had an all static-CMOS MPU, you could even take one of those big rheostats used for stage lighting and hook it up to a VFO to provide a variable clock to your CPU. "Captain, if I turn it up any higher, it'll blow for sure!". Didn't a couple of Honeywell mainframes use bar-graph Nixie tubes to show various system parameters? Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 17:04:17 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:04:17 +1300 Subject: Filters for RL02 In-Reply-To: <4753c5c47572a0.47572a04753c5c@direcway.com> References: <4753c5c47572a0.47572a04753c5c@direcway.com> Message-ID: On 10/20/05, charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: > Gordon recently mentioned that he had a dwindling supply of absolute filters for his RL02 drive. They are still readily available from several sources including Air Filtration Products (airfiltrationprod.com) and isesurplus.com. I just ordered one from The Filter Factory (www.thefilterfactory.com) for $28.95 plus UPS. That's less than we used to pay in the 1980s. My recollection was about $40-$45 each, in onsey-twoseys. -ethan From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Oct 19 17:09:06 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer speedometers In-Reply-To: <200510191418490751.2F6FD4AD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Has anyone done a similar thing with their vintage systems? On the 8080, > the M1 signal could be used; I'm not sure offhand about other processors. My incomplete Hitachi AS/6 has a meter good for all sorts of this, like processor horsepower and I/O. > I know--it's more simple amusement for a simple mind...but then, blinking > lights always fascinated me. ANYTHING on topic is welcome at this point. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Wed Oct 19 17:10:59 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:10:59 +0100 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca><43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> <4352DBEB.9070604@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <035001c5d4fa$085c33e0$0300a8c0@geoff> > Check this out: > > http://venhaus1.com/airsine.html > > US$700 power cable. I'm not kidding. > > > Doc I seem to recall that not so long back it was considered a bit of fun to write spoof audiophile letters to the popular hi-fi press and see if they printed it , waiting to see if anyone agreed in the next issue and then to see if it later entered the Pantheon of hi-fi "knowledge". Unfortunately , the cutting the corners off an amp. seems to have passed the test of time. 8>) Geoff. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/143 - Release Date: 19/10/05 From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Oct 19 17:14:42 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:14:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer speedometers In-Reply-To: <200510191418490751.2F6FD4AD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Has anyone done a similar thing with their vintage systems? On the 8080, > the M1 signal could be used; I'm not sure offhand about other processors. Come to think of it, the SGI 4D/380 has an LED bar graph matrix on the front panel to show performance for each of the 8 CPUs. And how could I forget the Systems Industries cache controller used on my school's old VAX-11/780 - it was connected to two Fujitsu Eagles, and had a truely massive LED bargraph for hit rate. What a completely useless, expensive, way cool feature... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 19 17:12:22 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:12:22 +0100 Subject: Computer speedometers In-Reply-To: <200510191452240418.2F8E9264@10.0.0.252> References: <200510191452240418.2F8E9264@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4356C4C6.8040207@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/19/2005 at 4:32 PM Julian Wolfe wrote: > > >>Alright, so I'm getting carried away, but why not? It's my computer :) > > > Well sure, why not? If you had an all static-CMOS MPU, you could even take > one of those big rheostats used for stage lighting and hook it up to a VFO > to provide a variable clock to your CPU. "Captain, if I turn it up any > higher, it'll blow for sure!". A PDP that'll go all the way up to 11? :-) > Didn't a couple of Honeywell mainframes use bar-graph Nixie tubes to show > various system parameters? I certainly recall *something* of the mainframe era with rather funky displays, more in keeping with a scifi movie... buggered if I can remember what it was now, though! cheers Jules From v.slyngstad at verizon.net Wed Oct 19 17:15:00 2005 From: v.slyngstad at verizon.net (Vince Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:15:00 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/A Front Panels Message-ID: <049801c5d4fa$8c8d2520$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Charles Morris and I have been working to create an equivalent for the KC8A programmer's panel for the PDP-8/A. This panel uses modern parts where necessary, but follows the DEC design quite closely. The buttons and LED displays are larger, and it is designed to mount flush with the front of the PDP-8/A, where the original mounted to a beveled aluminum casting. Like the originals, there are two long, thin PCBs, held together with spacers, and affixed to a metal panel that attaches to the rack/8A. Charles has recently finished an awesome job of debugging the prototype (thanks, Charles!). (My job has been to drive the CAD tools and get the prototypes ordered and such.) Now he has the panel he needed to check out his 8/A :-). Now that we have (revised) CAD drawings and such for the front panel assembly, we are thinking about ordering boards for a "group buy", and want to see how much interest there is in these items. Unfortunately, the front panels are not inexpensive. It will cost us about $200 to place a PCB order(1), plus about $20 for each pair of boards (including the first one) ordered. Parts for each board pair run about $50. The metal panel is about $85 from Front Panel Express (which allows the panel to be mounted and look nice). In addition, there are costs associated with the prototype that we'd like people to help with, that are around $200. As you can see, the price is quite daunting for a single front panel: $220/1+$50+$85+200/3 = $422. Hence the attractiveness of a group buy. If we can order 5, then the cost each will be $220/5+$50+$85+$200/5 = $208. If we can order 10, then the cost each will be $220/10+$50+$85+$200/12 = $174. (That's under $100, if someone can make the metal panels :-).) I know there are many who don't have programmer's panels for their 8/A. So, are any of you willing to put up that kind of money to get one? Send me a mail with "I'd want one if the price gets to $xxx or less."(2). Thanks! Vince (1) We can't use an inexpensive prototype shop due to the boards' size: 15.5"x3.7". (2) I put up a lame page at http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/kc8a.html with some pictures of my prototype (not Charles' debugged one). From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 19 17:16:47 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:16:47 +0100 Subject: Need volunteers for fun, interesting, and worthwhile project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4356C5CF.3060901@yahoo.co.uk> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'm working on a public service project being funded and hosted by a semi- > major internet-based institution (sorry, gotta keep low-key about it in > public until the big announcement). Google are producing a Bill Gates emulator? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 19 17:36:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:36:18 +0100 Subject: Computer speedometers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4356CA62.1020103@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: >>Has anyone done a similar thing with their vintage systems? On the 8080, >>the M1 signal could be used; I'm not sure offhand about other processors. > > > Come to think of it, the SGI 4D/380 has an LED bar graph matrix on the > front panel to show performance for each of the 8 CPUs. And of course in more modern times the BeBox has its dual bargraph displays up each side of the case front to do the same thing... > What a completely useless, expensive, way cool feature... Sometimes they're the best :) From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Wed Oct 19 18:01:01 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:01:01 +0100 Subject: Sone say tubes, some say valves .... Was: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" References: <200510151354.j9FDsUxj052019@keith.ezwind.net> <43524C41.4090502@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <03f501c5d501$18547940$0300a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon JC Pearce" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 1:49 PM Subject: Re: Sone say tubes, some say valves .... Was: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" > > > Surface post from the Jolly ole land of Merlin, back here to Central Ohio is running between > > Ah, but Merlin was English, wasn't he? > No , he was Welsh , but he did spend some time in your neck of the woods when it was Welsh speaking - which was up until about the 12th century. :>) Geoff. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/143 - Release Date: 19/10/05 From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Oct 19 18:05:10 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:05:10 +0100 Subject: Sone say tubes, some say valves .... Was: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <03f501c5d501$18547940$0300a8c0@geoff> References: <200510151354.j9FDsUxj052019@keith.ezwind.net> <43524C41.4090502@gjcp.net> <03f501c5d501$18547940$0300a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <4356D126.6080104@gjcp.net> Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gordon JC Pearce" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 1:49 PM > Subject: Re: Sone say tubes, some say valves .... Was: Public Service > Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" > > > >>>Surface post from the Jolly ole land of Merlin, back here to Central > > Ohio is running between > >>Ah, but Merlin was English, wasn't he? >> > > No , he was Welsh , but he did spend some time in your neck of the woods > when it was Welsh speaking - which was up until about the 12th century. :>) IIRC no-one spoke Welsh this far north... Gordon. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Oct 19 18:37:04 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:37:04 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <435519FA.7050303@yahoo.co.uk> References: <435424FF.4040305@yahoo.co.uk> <4354462D.7020606@jetnet.ab.ca> <435519FA.7050303@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051019183704.5f884415.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:51:22 +0100 Jules Richardson wrote: > woodelf wrote: > > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > >> > >> Yeah, Logo's more technicolour retarded, with a big flashing light on > >> top :-) > > > > > > Now what about LEGO ... I Know they have something computer controled > > with the stupid high-priced building blocks? > > Yeah... I remember seeing some Lego again a couple of years ago and it > was kinda depressing - it seemed to be nearly all custom pieces specific > to the model bought. Back when I was a kid all the bits were generic - > so there was a lot more scope for ignoring what Lego wanted you to build > and doing your own thing! > You can still buy big tubs of generic Lego bricks. There are even two or three sizes of big tubs to choose from in major stores. The 'theme kit' Legos is just where they appear to be making their bigger markup at present. > I must admit that some of the robotic stuff looks pretty cool - but it > still doesn't compare to the old days of bodging on motors and stuff > scavenged from various devices :) > I am convinced that someone needs to start a 'hobby' industry based on making robots from salvaged parts. All the electomechanical bits you need to make some really cool robotics can be salvaged from a bunch of old diskette drives. I have been accumulating a big pile of Macintosh 'super drives' for just such projects in the future. Speaking of which, has anybody ever cobbled up a non-Apple interface to run said SuperDrives? It would seem feasible and like a worthwhile thing to have. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Oct 19 18:42:11 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:42:11 -0500 Subject: Compute magazine (retry) In-Reply-To: <4354B5E0.5070602@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <4354B5E0.5070602@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <20051019184211.5ce4828e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:44:16 +0200 Holger Veit wrote: > Somewhere my last posting didn't find its way to the list, although > there were some downloads of the files below. > Retry (with few typo corrections):: > > Hi, > for quite some time I have some magazines of COMPUTE ("Club Of > Microprocessor Programmers, Users and Technical Experts"), a newsletter > sponsored by National Semiconductor, lying around which I consider > worthwhile to be conserved for the past. The date I am talking about is > around 1975..1977. > > Some questions: > 1. I have only some issues, namely V2N7...V2N12, V3N4...V3N7. Does > anyone have other issues (and is willing to scan or copy those)? I'd be > very interested in this epoch. > > 2. Scanning: You find a sample issue at > http://www.ais.fraunhofer.de/~veit/v2n7.pdf (2MB). This was scanned B&W > 400dpi, stored as TIF and converted with Acrobat. My problem is that > even with this some listing pages are barely readable, see page 5 for > example. This is probably because of lack of contrast; the magazine is > printed on light brown paper with dark brown text; other issues use blue > or green text color which is probably even less readable in a scan. If > one scans in color with 600dpi (as in sample > http://www.ais.fraunhofer.de/~veit/3x.pdf, 2MB) this will result in much > larger files - the raw TIF is 95MB on my disk, which is not a diskspace > issue for me, but for downloaders; expect a single issue to be 40MB and > more in size. > Do the "professional scanners" here, like Al, have a recommendation for > resolving this? > I am far from 'professional' but I always scan with grayscale and then use a good image editor (I like Micrographx Picture Publisher) that has filters to establish a threshold. That way I have a static image to work with. When it's done it gets saved (for distribution) as one-bit and I often archive the original grayscale scans, which are too big to distribute. The big chunk eraser tool is good for cleaning up the stray pixels once it's a one-bit image. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Oct 19 18:49:18 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:49:18 -0500 Subject: A BDU's is born every minute ... In-Reply-To: <10510182132.ZM16158@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200510171020310872.2448F630@10.0.0.252> <200510171848.j9HImqYx004296@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20051018082802.04bd90c8@mail> <10510182132.ZM16158@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20051019184918.5cf36a97.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:32:27 +0100 (BST) Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Oct 18 2005, 8:29, John Foust wrote: > > At 01:39 PM 10/17/2005, Bob Bradlee wrote: > > > >With the aid of a paperclip and a prybar, I opened up the drive to > fine a > > >shattered CD inside. > > > But I've seen this happen *twice* to a client who wasn't > > dunking them in LOX. CDs are spinning quite quickly. > > I've never actually seen it happen, but a couple of years ago one of > the manufacturers who supplies the University issued a warning about > fast drives, and IIRC some were recalled. The explanation was that the > faster "52x" drives run at a speed which is very close to that at which > centrifugal force can make a polycarbonate disk break up, so a defect > in the disk can have a profound effect. > Back when I experienced my first 'high speed' CDROM drive, which was on my new work computer, I heard the humming as the CD spun up and thought 'hmmm.' Then I started adding progressively more scotch tape to a spot on a CD to throw it off balance and investigate the noise level produced. Then I got brave (and stupid) and scotch taped a little metal washer on the disk. The CD drive buzzed so loudly that I had to quickly yank the power cord on my computer to keep people from wondering what the HELL I was doing in my cubicle and investigate. I had to paperclip open the drive (the paper clip is called the Mac-in-tool in my personal folklore, because it's a tool no Mac user could live without, even for the floppy drive) to get out the CD. It wasn't a 52x drive, just the first drive I encountered greater than 4x. From gilcarrick at comcast.net Wed Oct 19 19:21:57 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 19:21:57 -0500 Subject: Filters for RL02 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200510200032.j9K0WnNh065244@keith.ezwind.net> ... > That's less than we used to pay in the 1980s. My > recollection was about $40-$45 each, in onsey-twoseys. > > -ethan Probably the guy has a warehouse full & there is little market today. Gil From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed Oct 19 19:24:20 2005 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:24:20 -0400 Subject: WTD: Computer Data Systems Versatile 2 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20051019202350.022e7cf8@mail.degnanco.net> I live near Newark, Delaware and I am interested in acquiring a Computer Data Systems "Versatile 2" computer. This company was based in Newark, Delaware USA in 1977. I know practically nothing about this company, and the Delaware Historical Society has little more than their old address. As one of the few collectors in the area, I hope to "bring one of these systems home" for a proper preservation. The Versatile 2 was a 1977 Z80-based S-100 system with integrated monitor and keyboard. See: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=345 I would also be interested in software, CDS disk drive, manuals, documentation, ads, and whatever. Please contact me off list if you can help. I am willing to pay $$. Bill D -- E N D -- From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 19 19:29:41 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:29:41 -0400 Subject: Computer speedometers References: Message-ID: <005801c5d50d$64410100$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Some IBM 370's had a big galvanometer on the front, EG the '168 had one even with the massive CRT up there on the panel. (photo courtesy the corestore) http://www.corestore.org/370168-1.jpg AIX / RS6000 had a nice set of onscreen meters. Old fantasy: working Apollo CM control panel with all the lights, switches and barberpoles. John A. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 19 19:36:26 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:36:26 -0400 Subject: Computer speedometers Message-ID: <0IOM00L8UUZAV1I0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Computer speedometers > From: "John Allain" > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:29:41 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Some IBM 370's had a big galvanometer on the front, >EG the '168 had one even with the massive CRT >up there on the panel. >(photo courtesy the corestore) > http://www.corestore.org/370168-1.jpg > >AIX / RS6000 had a nice set of onscreen meters. > >Old fantasy: working Apollo CM control panel with all > the lights, switches and barberpoles. > >John A. Check out www.spaceref.com/exploration/apollo/acgreplica/ to build your own block 1 AGC. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 19 18:45:39 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:45:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fischer Technik and similar logic-enhanced toys (was Re: OT: In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 19, 5 04:25:07 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/19/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Real nerds use Fischer-Technik. > > I saw that stuff in the early 80s and couldn't come close to affording it. Alas I know the feeling all too well... Particularly the elecrtronics modules, which _then_ were around \pounds 20.00 each in the UK. Far too expensive to get a good collection of them, > > > Fischer Technik has gone down spectacularly since I was a kid. In the old > > days there were fairly simple elecrronic modules (alas so expensive that > > I couldn't afford enough of them) -- things like a double pole changeover > > relay, analogue voltage comparator, AND gate, OR gate, flip-flop, > > monotstable, etc. > > I remember that stuff - in particular, I remember enough logic for an > elevator controller and a traffic light. I can't rememebr what all the electronic modules were, but there were at least : Rectifier (used as a PSU for everything else) Plain relay (this started off in a different type of case, then later on came in the same case as the other modules) Relay + transistor amplifier to drive it Analogue voltage compaartor (and other useful components brought out to sockets Piezo microphone/beeper AND/NAND gate (IIRC, 4 inputs, you got both normal and inverted outputs) OR/NOT gates (ditto) Pulse-coupled AND gate (2 in a module?) Flip-flop (I think a JK with set/reset inputs too) Monostable Patch panel (a number of sockets interconnected inside, you could plug any compoentns into that for your own circuits I suppose the TTL-input relay and the 14 pin DIL module count too, but they were not electriclaly compatible with the rest of the system. Given all those functions, it would be _possible_ to make just about anything (we all know you can, in principle, make any logic circuit from just 2 input NAND gates...). On the other hand, trying to make a processor would be large and expensive. The traffic light controller, I think, was electromechanical. That set included some slip-rings and brush contacts. By fitting insulating covers onto the slip-rings (also in the kit), you could make an electromechanical 'programmer'. Certainly traffic lights was one of the example models for this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 19 18:48:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:48:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fischer Technik and similar logic-enhanced toys (was Re: In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF24BC@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Oct 19, 5 08:13:35 am Message-ID: > > I'd _love_ a way to home-brew some sort of snap-together logic toy. > > For that matter, I'd love a way to make something like a DEC > > Logic Lab from stuff around the house (i.e. - a 2 sq ft board > > covered with logic and plug points)... One could use banana > > jacks, etc., for the interconnects, but at retail pricing, > > that would start to add up to real money real fast. > > > > -ethan > > > I read a few months ago an interesting article about a virtual > building blocks piece of freeware software to be downloaded from > http://www.muvium.com/ It is the "link" Virtual Breadboard, but > it is already also for months announced with "Coming Soon.." > I regularly keep watching this site ... Hmmm... I hate to say this, but a 'virtual kit' like this is but a very pale immitation of the real thing. I've yet to see any simulation that comes close to what you can do with the real stuff, and seeing a real machine move is a lot more interesting than seeing moving pixels on a monitor screen. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 19 18:33:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:33:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4355986D.7090208@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 19, 5 01:50:53 am Message-ID: > >>Your comments make me wonder what the history of the buggy was though - > >>did it start out as a F-T kit in its own right, or was it a joint effort > > > > > > AFAIK it was never an F-T product. F-T never used stepper motors, and if > > they had they would not have fitted them with screws through the grouves > > of the blocks. > > Yep, some aspects of it seem a little bodgy - but then the PCB's quite > nice if I remember, and the curved clear 'lid' was a pretty good job. The PCB is a fairly simple double-sided thing with wide tracks. It's the sort of thing that _could_ have easily been made at home (at least the prototype). The lid is nice, and was certainly custom-moulded for that device. But it's not essential (see below). > The whole thing seemed halfway between a F-T product and someone's > bedroom hack :-) Personally, I think it started out as a bedroom hack (all but the cover could have been made at home, using normal electronic bits and stock F-T parts). It was then turned into a commercial (albeit low-volume) product, and the cover was made for it. > > (Incidentally, I need to find suitable replacement tyres for Bletchley's > buggies; they've nearly all decayed now - not sure if rubber O-rings Mine too. > would work or be of the wrong substance and therefore too slippy. Yet > another job to get around to at some point!) The tyres are not an F-T part (although the wheels, and the little nylon rods to fill in the slots most certainly are). They look like standard O-rings to me. If yoy find a source of them, let me koow, I need a couple too. The company I normally get O-rings from (for HP card readers, etc) doesn't do them large enough. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 19 19:29:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:29:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Thoroughly cleaning an RL02 In-Reply-To: from "Julian Wolfe" at Oct 19, 5 04:11:25 pm Message-ID: > > Hey everyone! > > I need some help. I have an RL02 disk drive that sat in a warehouse for > awhile, and somehow it got spiders (and their webs) in it, and the previous > owner contaminated the drive by shipping it exposed in foam and the foam got > all over the inside of the drive. What's the best method to disassemble and With great diffiuclty... Fromt what I rememebr, the cartrige holder (upper casting) and the 'base pan' were nver intended to be separated. You can easilty remove the top covers, the PCBs, the front panel, filters, rear panel/PSU, and with a little more work remove the spinlde motor, head positioner and spindle (note that you don't need an alignment disk to set up an RL, any disk pack will do, but you will need a 'scope). I hope that will be enough (if so, I can try and talk you through it). If not, well, I think the base pan is pop-riveted on, but there may be sealants too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 19 19:36:39 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:36:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Computer speedometers In-Reply-To: <4356C4C6.8040207@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 19, 5 11:12:22 pm Message-ID: > > Well sure, why not? If you had an all static-CMOS MPU, you could even take > > one of those big rheostats used for stage lighting and hook it up to a VFO > > to provide a variable clock to your CPU. "Captain, if I turn it up any > > higher, it'll blow for sure!". > > A PDP that'll go all the way up to 11? :-) Actually, the PDP11/45 has 2 clock circuits. One is the crystal clock (33MHz) for normal running. The other is an RC clock, with a preset pot to set the frequency. You can select the latter by sticking a KM11 maintenance board in and flipping the appropriate swtich on said board. The RC clock will go faster than 33MHz, the idea being that you ensure that the machine will run at the higher speed, if so, then it will certainly work at 33MHz. The HP9825 (and the 9831) use a dual VCO chip for the CPU clock. One of the osciallators runs at fixed frequency, the output of that is turned into an approximately triangular wave, and used to freqeuncy-modulate the other one. The reason, of course, is to spread out the spectrum of the RF noise coming from the machine. This is mentioned in passing in the board-swapper service manual, and is fairly clear from the schematics. -tony From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Oct 19 20:37:17 2005 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:37:17 EDT Subject: Bell and Howell "Digital Video Presentation" system Message-ID: <46.73fa89ce.30884ecd@aol.com> >In a message dated 10/19/2005 6:56:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk writes: >We've just been offered one of these - I'm assuming (awaiting further >details) that it's a rebadged Apple II Plus, as in: >http://oldcomputers.net/bellandhowell.html >... but that doesn't mention the "Digital Video Presentation" side of >it, or even any video extras over and above what the II Plus has. >Anyone know any more details? Did Bell and Howell ever do any other >computer-based systems? >I will get some more info from the owner (and they have the full doc set >apparently), but I'm being impatient :-) That's interesting, I work at B+H (now Bowe Bell and Howell) and I've never heard of any of the old stuff at work. BBH is primarily know for mail processing systems and technologies, neat stuff! From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Oct 19 20:43:43 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:43:43 -0500 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <200510171008590657.243E6639@10.0.0.252> References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca> <43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> <4352DBEB.9070604@mdrconsult.com> <435373F3.2040801@brothom.nl> <10510171714.ZM12832@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200510171008590657.243E6639@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051019204343.46832002.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:08:59 -0700 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 10/17/2005 at 5:14 PM Pete Turnbull wrote: > > >One of my cow orkers, Marc, has pointed out that some of it's been done > >before: > > > >http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/ > > I'd love to see what Bob Pease would make of all of this, he did have a > field day with speaker cables: > > http://www.national.com/rap/Story/0,1562,3,00.html > > 4 feet of 10 AWG oxygen free copper wire connecting to 14 AWG house wiring > back to the distrubution panel. Why not some 1/2" gold-plated copper > tubing in a fused quartz box filled with argon for the absolutely best AC > sound? Wonder if folks know how noisy the average AC mains supply is? > > Ah, but that's it--disconnect from the mains entirely! Run your audio rig > off of a pile of deep-cycle lead-acid batteries. No need for those > terrible switching power supplies or (gasp!) transformers! > > I needed some binding posts (for a power supply I was building) and found > that one of the surplus dealers had some for very cheap, so I ordered some. > Much to my surprise, they turned out to be gold-plated with wire insertion > holes that could easily accommodate 6 ga wire. Mind you, the wiring tie > points attached to the posts would pass 18 ga wire, tops. > > I concluded that they must have been manufactured for the audiophile trade. > No one else in his right mind would use small banana-plug type binding > posts for conductors that large. > > Cheers, > Chuck > In some ways I don't get it at all. Why are they screwing around with copper? They should be using pure silver conductors, sealed in an oxygen-free environment to prevent oxidiation. --- My Dynaco pre-amplifier has coupling capacitors with a 1% tolerance. I didn't build it that way, it came that way (from a thrift shop.) All the tubes in it but one are still Dynaco brand. -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Oct 19 20:48:19 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:48:19 -0500 Subject: OT: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <001001c5d348$28129660$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <001001c5d348$28129660$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <20051019204819.4b440d27.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:25:29 +0100 "a.carlini at ntlworld.com" wrote: > The engineers building X usually know how X works. Hopefully they have the O'Reilly & Associates X Window System reference set in their bookcase. (hopefully, they have no idea what the initials KDE or GNOME stand for, etc. etc.) -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 19 20:54:23 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bell and Howell "Digital Video Presentation" system In-Reply-To: <46.73fa89ce.30884ecd@aol.com> References: <46.73fa89ce.30884ecd@aol.com> Message-ID: <20051019185208.W25900@shell.lmi.net> > Anyone know any more details? Did Bell and Howell ever do any other > computer-based systems? Hell and Bowel made and sold all kinds of AV equipment. There were several things that they sold that had computers, besides their rebadged ][. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 19 21:46:27 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 19:46:27 -0700 Subject: Bell and Howell "Digital Video Presentation" system In-Reply-To: <20051019185208.W25900@shell.lmi.net> References: <46.73fa89ce.30884ecd@aol.com> <20051019185208.W25900@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510191946270180.309BC59E@10.0.0.252> On 10/19/2005 at 6:54 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >> Anyone know any more details? Did Bell and Howell ever do any other >> computer-based systems? > >Hell and Bowel made and sold all kinds of AV equipment. There were >several things that they sold that had computers, besides their >rebadged ][. Didn't they also run a sort of vocational school, Bell&Howell Institute? Couild be that some of the rebadged computer stuff comes from their course materials... Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 19 21:58:03 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 03:58:03 +0100 Subject: Unix on BBC micro with 16032 coprocessor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435707BB.8050308@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>>Silly random thought. IIRC, there's an empty 40 pin DIL socket on the ACW >>>coprocessor board, and I think it's on the 32016 sencond processor board >>>too (I must come and collect that from you). Wasn't that for an MMU chip? >> >>Yep, you're right (about there being empty sockets on both versions of >>the board). I suppose it's logical it'd be an MMU chip given that >>there's no other connectors to the board (e.g. it's not for an optional >>serial chip or whatever). > > I've checked my ACW schematics, and it is for an 32082 MMU chip. Funnily enough, mention of that socket just cropped up on the BBC list, and someone remembers their father working on one of these boards with a floating point unit fitted into that socket via a small daughtercard. They're willing to admit that they may be misremembering though! Would that be a possibility though, or is it definitely an MMU socket? They're going to mention it to their dad, but suspect that he's long since forgotten details too. (Incidentally this was at Oxford uni - which is the first time I've heard that they had any 32016 units, although I suppose it's not surprising) Oh, and I was also thinking about the Xenix on the ACW rumour. It's remotely possible that someone managed to get Xenix running on the 80286 coprocessor in the ABC 3xx machines I suppose, and that's where this rumour of ACW's running Xenix started (after all, the machines look identical externally). It'd solve the porting to a different CPU issue at least, but presumably would be no small feat to get it to do I/O across the TUBE. Still, slightly more plausible than an ACW version... I could see Acorn doing early press releases about the ABC range and saying "oh yeah, we've got Xenix in the works for one of these" - and of course to most people the ACW and the ABC equate to the same system as the Z80 version's largely forgotten and the 80286 version never existed outside the labs (far as I've been able to tell). Hence over time things got corrupted into people thinking there was a 32016 Unix variant... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 19 22:09:06 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 04:09:06 +0100 Subject: Bell and Howell "Digital Video Presentation" system In-Reply-To: <200510191946270180.309BC59E@10.0.0.252> References: <46.73fa89ce.30884ecd@aol.com> <20051019185208.W25900@shell.lmi.net> <200510191946270180.309BC59E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43570A52.4010002@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 10/19/2005 at 6:54 PM Fred Cisin wrote: > > >>>Anyone know any more details? Did Bell and Howell ever do any other >>>computer-based systems? >> >>Hell and Bowel made and sold all kinds of AV equipment. There were >>several things that they sold that had computers, besides their >>rebadged ][. > > > Didn't they also run a sort of vocational school, Bell&Howell Institute? > Couild be that some of the rebadged computer stuff comes from their course > materials... > I am starting to wonder if it's a vintage piece of kit at all to be honest! It seems that the company still do (or did until very recent times possibly) video projectors and other related gadgets. It may well be it's not even something that old at all and is some sort of gadget the owner thought we'd like to assist in public displays or whatever :-) (In which case it'd likely still be good to have... I'm just surprised that google reveals no possible info other than this black Apple II+ from way back, which doesn't appear to have anything by way of fancy video ability) Guess I'll have to sit and await more details from the owner! :) cheers Jules > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 19 22:35:50 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:35:50 -0700 Subject: Bell and Howell "Digital Video Presentation" system In-Reply-To: <43570A52.4010002@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46.73fa89ce.30884ecd@aol.com> <20051019185208.W25900@shell.lmi.net> <200510191946270180.309BC59E@10.0.0.252> <43570A52.4010002@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200510192035500526.30C8FCB3@10.0.0.252> On 10/20/2005 at 4:09 AM Jules Richardson wrote: >I am starting to wonder if it's a vintage piece of kit at all to be >honest! It seems that the company still do (or did until very recent >times possibly) video projectors and other related gadgets. Here's your "rest ot the story": http://www.macgeek.org/museum/bhapple2plus/ --Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Oct 19 23:34:44 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:34:44 -0500 Subject: Bell and Howell "Digital Video Presentation" system In-Reply-To: <200510191946270180.309BC59E@10.0.0.252> References: <46.73fa89ce.30884ecd@aol.com> <20051019185208.W25900@shell.lmi.net> <200510191946270180.309BC59E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43571E64.9000606@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 10/19/2005 at 6:54 PM Fred Cisin wrote: > > >>>Anyone know any more details? Did Bell and Howell ever do any other >>>computer-based systems? >> >>Hell and Bowel made and sold all kinds of AV equipment. There were >>several things that they sold that had computers, besides their >>rebadged ][. > > > Didn't they also run a sort of vocational school, Bell&Howell Institute? > Couild be that some of the rebadged computer stuff comes from their course > materials... > > Cheers, > Chuck No, you are thinking of DeVry, which Bell & Howell owned for a time. Here is a short history: http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/2567.html My dad worked at B&H in the microfilm division from the early 60s to the mid 80's. I did summer programming there on a black B&H Apple ][ for two or three years. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 19 23:53:05 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:53:05 -0700 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: <43529DDC.6030901@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca> <43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> <43529DDC.6030901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: At 12:37 PM -0600 10/16/05, woodelf wrote: >Tube Audio ... Not pricy at all compare to Classic Computers. >PS. The only thing preventing me from building a replica of say >PDP 8 in a FPGA is the lack of a paper tape reader/punch. Tube Audio isn't pricy compared to classic computers? Interesting... It is from where I'm sitting. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 20 00:19:35 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:19:35 -0700 Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: <03f501c5d501$18547940$0300a8c0@geoff> References: <200510151354.j9FDsUxj052019@keith.ezwind.net> <43524C41.4090502@gjcp.net> <03f501c5d501$18547940$0300a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: OK, since there seem to be a fair amount of people into Tube audio, or at least with a knowledge of it. Would someone care to explain the following to someone that is used to an all in one unit such as a Sony Receiver. What is the purpose of separate Amp and Pre-Amps. I think I understand the whole phono pre-stage, but I've yet to find a decent explanation of the rest, and I'm looking to switch to tubes for playback of records (primarily Vinyl, but I'm also interested in 78's). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Phil_Matthews at DRSOptronics.com Wed Oct 19 06:50:48 2005 From: Phil_Matthews at DRSOptronics.com (Matthews, Phil) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:50:48 -0400 Subject: HP 9133 Message-ID: <53CB7766CBAB9148BCB56ABC56F408CF051921E1@california.drso.biz> Hi Frank, Thanks for the reply, Joe R responded to me yesterday and told me about it being a hard drive, I sent him back some pictures, which I have attached, in hopes of identifying what I have. If you know what it is, I would appreciate the help, let me know if more picture or anything else would help. Thanks Again Phil -----Original Message----- From: Frank McConnell [mailto:fmc at reanimators.org] Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:21 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; Matthews, Phil Subject: Re: HP 9133 Phil Matthews wrote: > I have been looking at your cctalk bulletin board and it appears that > Frank McConnell is someone who knows a lot about old HP computers. I > have been tasked to replace the HP 9133 computer on some of our test > equipment with new PC's. I was hoping to contact somebody who might > know if this is possible and how to do it. So I was wondering if you > knew how I could contact Frank McConnell or somebody who might know. Appearances can be misleading. I mostly wonder why it is that I remember how to take apart a 262X terminal better than I remember what I was working on last month. And, my work with this stuff was in a data processing and office automation environment, so what I remember is mostly terminals and HP150s and some early Vectras and of course classic HP3000s. There are other folks who read cctalk who have more clues than I do about the test-equipment side of HP, so posting to cctalk may get you more help than I can give you. One thing I am sure of, your first step is to take another look at your system. The 9133 is a disc drive; actually it is two of them, hard and flexible. It does have a microcontroller, but its firmware is about being disc drives, not about computing. Something else in there is the computer, and you need to look again and find out what that is. -Frank McConnell From rmu_scada_nw at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 09:49:20 2005 From: rmu_scada_nw at yahoo.com (Joe Abbott) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cromemco SCC Eproms/images needed Message-ID: <20051019144921.8994.qmail@web54705.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rich, No, I've never found a source for those roms. What few leads I did get didn't pay off. I think it's been close to 2 years since I last posted anything about them so maybe it's time to bring it up again. Sooo... If anyone has a Cromemco SCC board with ROMs, please check them to see if they are the MCB-216 roms. There were two 2716 roms in sockets 0 and 1 containing a monitor program and 3k control basic. We need an image of these roms or a text hex/decimal/octal listing would suffice (anything machine or human readable as long as it's accurate and complete). Pete T. and Randy M. on the list were also looking for these. It'd be nice to find these before I pass on and my wife and kids get to dispose of my stuff. Keep on keeping on, Joe >Hi Joe, >I was wondering if you ever found the MCB-216 roms, or source code for the >Cromemco SCC board. I am also looking for them. >Let me know if you can help. >Thanks! >Rich __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From rmay635703 at aol.com Wed Oct 19 15:16:24 2005 From: rmay635703 at aol.com (rmay635703 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:16:24 -0400 Subject: Need Manual for Tektronix 4696 Message-ID: <8C7A3011D254353-42C-455B@FWM-R05.sysops.aol.com> I have an old Tektronix Colorquick 4696 inkjet printer with the good ol ink wells and I want to restore it. It works with an old Innovion / CASI futura II computer photography system from the 80's. Anyway I need to get the printer to do a clean cycle and I KNOW it had one, I just don't know what dipp switch settings were needed to make this happen. Also a list of the dipp switch settings or a manual would be very helpfull. (right now the unit prints yellow, blue and a strange dark green for black) On the same topic the unit uses a green maintenance fluid, which i'm going to run out of eventually and I am wondering if anyone knows of a good substitute OR better yet what this stuff really is? I would like to get my old futura up and running but it only works with a Balloonjet printer from around 1987 (no idea what that is) or a Tektronix 4696/4695. pictures of said system here @ colortron.tk Also general information on Innovion, CASI tech and their systems is always appreciated. Thank You For Any Information Ryan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 01:06:04 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:06:04 -0700 Subject: Bell and Howell "Digital Video Presentation" system In-Reply-To: <43571E64.9000606@pacbell.net> References: <46.73fa89ce.30884ecd@aol.com> <20051019185208.W25900@shell.lmi.net> <200510191946270180.309BC59E@10.0.0.252> <43571E64.9000606@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200510192306040439.31528632@10.0.0.252> On 10/19/2005 at 11:34 PM Jim Battle wrote: >No, you are thinking of DeVry, which Bell & Howell owned for a time. > >Here is a short history: > >http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/2567.html Ah, but that's the problem with online historical documents--they tend to omit things. Around the mid-70's, deVry was rebadged as "Bell and Howell Institute", but the name didn't stick: http://www.buffalotelecom.com/cat_index_2.shtml http://www.martinsvillebulletin.com/Archive/2003/Jan%20'03/j011003.htm http://www.cadillacnews.com/obit_archive/2004/07/07-10-04/obit02.html http://getfilings.com/o0001086715-05-000023.html Either that, or these folks are padding their resum?s. Anyone remember the B&H reel-to-reel tape recorders from the late 60's that sounded like a jet engine revving up when the autothread mechanism was activated? Cheers, Chuck From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Wed Oct 19 17:13:01 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:13:01 -0400 Subject: Computer speedometers In-Reply-To: <200510191452240418.2F8E9264@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510192222.j9JMMfjB063030@keith.ezwind.net> IBM 360 mod 65 had/has a nice one ... http://www.ibm-collectables.com/albums/album01/PICT1651.jpg Bob From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 01:08:47 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:08:47 -0700 Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: References: <200510151354.j9FDsUxj052019@keith.ezwind.net> <43524C41.4090502@gjcp.net> <03f501c5d501$18547940$0300a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <200510192308470615.31550399@10.0.0.252> On 10/19/2005 at 10:19 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: >OK, since there seem to be a fair amount of people into Tube audio, >or at least with a knowledge of it. Would someone care to explain >the following to someone that is used to an all in one unit such as a >Sony Receiver. What is the purpose of separate Amp and Pre-Amps. I >think I understand the whole phono pre-stage, but I've yet to find a >decent explanation of the rest, and I'm looking to switch to tubes >for playback of records (primarily Vinyl, but I'm also interested in >78's). Purely from memory, but I believe one generally used a separate pre-amp mostly due to hum issues. The power supply for the preamp could make use of lower plate voltages, better regulation and DC heater supplies. Or so I think I recall. Cheers, Chuck From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Thu Oct 20 01:26:05 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:26:05 -0700 Subject: Apple II Serial Number 2 Message-ID: <000701c5d53f$2e56e5f0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> I wrote up a web page about job at a computer store and getting to evaluate the first production Apple II computers. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Apple/allied_computer.htm . I had serial number 2 for a few weeks until the power supply failed. It was sent back to Apple and I never saw it again. I am emailing Bruce Damer about the Homebrew Computer Club event at VCF 8 and sent him a link to that page. He replied back with pictures of the same unit. Jef Raskin had it. http://www.digibarn.com/friends/jef-raskin/apple-II/index.html Here is some information about the Homebrew Computer Club. http://www.digibarn.com/collections/newsletters/homebrew/index.html Here is my page on the HCC http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Homebrew/Homebrew.htm Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 20 01:25:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > OK, since there seem to be a fair amount of people into Tube audio, > or at least with a knowledge of it. Would someone care to explain > the following to someone that is used to an all in one unit such as a > Sony Receiver. What is the purpose of separate Amp and Pre-Amps. I > think I understand the whole phono pre-stage, but I've yet to find a > decent explanation of the rest, and I'm looking to switch to tubes > for playback of records (primarily Vinyl, but I'm also interested in > 78's). God damn it. This isn't the fucking antique radio mailing list. Take it to a more appropriate list or take it off-list. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 20 01:27:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bell and Howell "Digital Video Presentation" system In-Reply-To: <200510192306040439.31528632@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Anyone remember the B&H reel-to-reel tape recorders from the late 60's that > sounded like a jet engine revving up when the autothread mechanism was > activated? Also off-topic. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Oct 20 02:03:27 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:03:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cromemco SCC Eproms/images needed In-Reply-To: Joe Abbott "Re:Cromemco SCC Eproms/images needed" (Oct 19, 7:49) References: <20051019144921.8994.qmail@web54705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10510200803.ZM20233@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 19 2005, 7:49, Joe Abbott wrote: > Sooo... If anyone has a Cromemco SCC board with ROMs, > please check them to see if they are the MCB-216 roms. > There were two 2716 roms in sockets 0 and 1 containing > a monitor program and 3k control basic. We need an > image of these roms or a text hex/decimal/octal > listing would suffice (anything machine or human > readable as long as it's accurate and complete). > > Pete T. and Randy M. on the list were also looking for > these. Yes. I have an SCC but not with those ROMs, and my attempts to find the MCB-216 ROMs have met with no more success than Joe's. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From david at cantrell.org.uk Thu Oct 20 05:10:36 2005 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:10:36 +0100 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510142140520245.1744C494@10.0.0.252> References: <200510150416.j9F4GHuk043800@keith.ezwind.net> <200510142140520245.1744C494@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051020101034.GA12091@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Fri, Oct 14, 2005 at 09:40:52PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I start grinding my teeth when I read stuff like this: > > PSHR R2 ; Push R2 onto the stack > MVII 10,R1 ; Move 10 to R1 > > A comment on every line that describes exactly what's happening without any > sort "big picture". Absolutely meaningless. Grargh! When I wrote our coding guidelines at work, I made it very clear that comments shuold describe the algorithm, not just each line of code. So, for example, instead of "Push R2 onto the stack" it would say "squirrel R2 away because it's gonna get clobbered in a minute and we'll need it again", followed later by "retrieve the value we saved earlier, so that now we can ...". -- David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information Gehyrst ?u, s?lida, hw?t ?is folc sege?? Hi willa? eow to gafole garas syllan, ?ttrynne ord and ealde swurd, ?a heregeatu ?e eow ?t hilde ne deah. -- Byrhtno? From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Oct 20 06:25:04 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:25:04 -0400 Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43577E90.4060307@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >>OK, since there seem to be a fair amount of people into Tube audio, >>or at least with a knowledge of it. Would someone care to explain >>the following to someone that is used to an all in one unit such as a >>Sony Receiver. What is the purpose of separate Amp and Pre-Amps. I >>think I understand the whole phono pre-stage, but I've yet to find a >>decent explanation of the rest, and I'm looking to switch to tubes >>for playback of records (primarily Vinyl, but I'm also interested in >>78's). > > > God damn it. This isn't the fucking antique radio mailing list. Take it > to a more appropriate list or take it off-list. Maybe we should hold another 10 Year Rule war instead. 8-) Doc From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 06:55:21 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:55:21 -0400 Subject: Computer speedometers In-Reply-To: <200510191418490751.2F6FD4AD@10.0.0.252> References: <200510191418490751.2F6FD4AD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <435785A9.6090609@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I was reminiscing to someone about an old GE mainframe with an analog meter > that registered Kops/sec. I'm sure it was little more than an RC > integrator hooked to the RNI signal reading out on a voltmeter, but it > seemed pretty spiffy at the time. > > Has anyone done a similar thing with their vintage systems? On the 8080, > the M1 signal could be used; I'm not sure offhand about other processors. > > I know--it's more simple amusement for a simple mind...but then, blinking > lights always fascinated me. The idea that Dave McG mentioned to me was embedding an LED array in your roof, and encode a bandwidth utilization meter into the LED's. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 20 06:57:58 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:57:58 -0400 Subject: OT: Tube Audio Message-ID: <0ION002G3QJ04230@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT: Tube Audio > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:08:47 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/19/2005 at 10:19 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>OK, since there seem to be a fair amount of people into Tube audio, >>or at least with a knowledge of it. Would someone care to explain >>the following to someone that is used to an all in one unit such as a >>Sony Receiver. What is the purpose of separate Amp and Pre-Amps. I >>think I understand the whole phono pre-stage, but I've yet to find a >>decent explanation of the rest, and I'm looking to switch to tubes >>for playback of records (primarily Vinyl, but I'm also interested in >>78's). > >Purely from memory, but I believe one generally used a separate pre-amp >mostly due to hum issues. The power supply for the preamp could make use >of lower plate voltages, better regulation and DC heater supplies. > >Or so I think I recall. > >Cheers, >Chuck > No. Gads, creating answers revisionistically. Rare back then was a preamp with DC heaters. Besides without the oxygen free stabilized cables how could you appreciate it. ;) The same preamp could be used with different power amps. Also Not all preamps were the same depending on the source used (mag cart, moving coil or variable reluctance or even ceramic) and the response curve requred. Many amps contained the required preamp, some didn't. Generally the larger ones didn't due to size. As the stereo system could have the preamps, volume and tone controlls for user convenience and the power amp (the large, heavy and hot) located elsewhere. Back in the 60s I knew a few people that were into serious audio and the power amp was in the basement, it produced too much heat, large and was ugly. Back then a good FM (maybe even stereo) reciever was often seperate as well. Component audio was that way. Just like component computers. Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Oct 20 07:34:21 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:34:21 -0500 Subject: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" In-Reply-To: References: <43511CEF.1020802@gjcp.net> <43513D82.3020404@jetnet.ab.ca> <43525759.8010609@gjcp.net> <43529DDC.6030901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051020073421.4160da8d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:53:05 -0700 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 12:37 PM -0600 10/16/05, woodelf wrote: > >Tube Audio ... Not pricy at all compare to Classic Computers. > >PS. The only thing preventing me from building a replica of say > >PDP 8 in a FPGA is the lack of a paper tape reader/punch. > > Tube Audio isn't pricy compared to classic computers? Interesting... > It is from where I'm sitting. > > Zane > Definitely seems that way from here, too. Although I will admit my best 'tube audio' gear is a Dynaco preamp and a Harmon-Kardon integrated amp that I got from thrift shops. But that's a popular channel for my classic computer items as well. Either category of equipment is extremely expensive through 'retail' channels, but 'retail' is for people like Paul Allen, and for those who make their money bilking people with too much disposable income that way. -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Oct 20 07:36:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:36:58 -0500 Subject: Bell and Howell "Digital Video Presentation" system In-Reply-To: References: <200510192306040439.31528632@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051020073658.06e08613.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Anyone remember the B&H reel-to-reel tape recorders from the late 60's that > > sounded like a jet engine revving up when the autothread mechanism was > > activated? > > Also off-topic. > I've seen explicit requests from help on off-topic subject matter from the current 'topic police' on occasion. But that's the goose, not the gander, eh? But this is off topic. (as are comments that solely convey the message that something is 'off topic.') -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Oct 20 07:40:01 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:40:01 -0500 Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: <0ION002G3QJ04230@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0ION002G3QJ04230@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051020074001.7f1260cc.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:57:58 -0400 Allison wrote: > > > >Subject: Re: OT: Tube Audio > > From: "Chuck Guzis" > > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:08:47 -0700 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >On 10/19/2005 at 10:19 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > >>OK, since there seem to be a fair amount of people into Tube audio, > >>or at least with a knowledge of it. Would someone care to explain > >>the following to someone that is used to an all in one unit such as a > >>Sony Receiver. What is the purpose of separate Amp and Pre-Amps. I > >>think I understand the whole phono pre-stage, but I've yet to find a > >>decent explanation of the rest, and I'm looking to switch to tubes > >>for playback of records (primarily Vinyl, but I'm also interested in > >>78's). > > > >Purely from memory, but I believe one generally used a separate pre-amp > >mostly due to hum issues. The power supply for the preamp could make use > >of lower plate voltages, better regulation and DC heater supplies. > > > >Or so I think I recall. > > > >Cheers, > >Chuck > > > > No. Gads, creating answers revisionistically. Rare back then was a preamp > with DC heaters. Besides without the oxygen free stabilized cables how > could you appreciate it. ;) > My Dynaco preamp is from the early 60's and has a filtered DC power supply section for the heater filaments. -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 07:38:59 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 05:38:59 -0700 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051020101034.GA12091@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <200510150416.j9F4GHuk043800@keith.ezwind.net> <200510142140520245.1744C494@10.0.0.252> <20051020101034.GA12091@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <200510200538590811.0018F48F@10.0.0.252> On 10/20/2005 at 11:10 AM David Cantrell wrote: >> PSHR R2 ; Push R2 onto the stack >> MVII 10,R1 ; Move 10 to R1 >Grargh! When I wrote our coding guidelines at work, I made it very >clear that comments shuold describe the algorithm, not just each line of >code. So, for example, instead of "Push R2 onto the stack" it would say >"squirrel R2 away because it's gonna get clobbered in a minute and we'll >need it again", followed later by "retrieve the value we saved earlier, >so that now we can ...". ...or "I'm saving all of the registers by habit because I've been burned too many times when I forgot to save one. Besides, what's a few wasted cycles between friends?" Anyone recognize the system for which the above assembly code is written? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 07:45:07 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 05:45:07 -0700 Subject: Bell and Howell "Digital Video Presentation" system In-Reply-To: <20051020073658.06e08613.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200510192306040439.31528632@10.0.0.252> <20051020073658.06e08613.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200510200545070740.001E91C8@10.0.0.252> On 10/20/2005 at 7:36 AM Scott Stevens wrote: >I've seen explicit requests from help on off-topic subject matter from the >current 'topic police' on occasion. But that's the goose, not the gander, >eh? > >But this is off topic. I consider myself appropriately chastened for my wandering mind. I'll try to apply the reins a bit more energetically the next time I'm tempted to meander off the trodden path. But I'll put it on-topic a little more and ask if the aforementioned B&H audio deck contained the first "thread by air" mechanism later used by many 9-track "stick the reel in the slot" tape streamers... How's that? Cheers, Chuck From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 20 08:48:42 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:48:42 Subject: HP 9133 (Matthews, Phil) In-Reply-To: <002001c5d462$145a6880$6501a8c0@Wayne> References: <200510190045.j9J0j586044663@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051020084842.3adf04a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:03 PM 10/18/05 -0700, Wayne Smith wrote: > >> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:36:11 -0400 >> From: "Matthews, Phil" >> Subject: HP 9133 >> To: >> Message-ID: >> <53CB7766CBAB9148BCB56ABC56F408CF051921D4 at california.drso.biz> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Hi, >> >> I have been looking at your cctalk bulletin board and it >> appears that Frank McConnell is someone who knows a lot about >> old HP computers. I have been tasked to replace the HP 9133 >> computer on some of our test equipment with new PC's. I was >> hoping to contact somebody who might know if this is possible >> and how to do it. So I was wondering if you knew how I could >> contact Frank McConnell or somebody who might know. >> >> Sincerely >> Phil Matthews >> DRS Optronics Inc >> Electrical Engineer >> (321) 309-2124 >> phil_matthews at drsoptronics.com > >A 9133 is a hard disk/floppy disk combo drive - there's no CPU. The CPU >is in a separate box - probably something like a 9920, 9000/217, >9000/300, etc. Joe Rigdon is also a good bet for advice on this stuff. Thanks, I've already contacted Phil directly. Joe From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Thu Oct 20 09:33:58 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:33:58 +0100 Subject: Sone say tubes, some say valves .... Was: Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1" References: <200510151354.j9FDsUxj052019@keith.ezwind.net> <43524C41.4090502@gjcp.net><03f501c5d501$18547940$0300a8c0@geoff> <4356D126.6080104@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <001701c5d583$5d3c6b80$0300a8c0@geoff> > > > >>Ah, but Merlin was English, wasn't he? > >> > > > > No , he was Welsh , but he did spend some time in your neck of the woods > > when it was Welsh speaking - which was up until about the 12th century. :>) > > IIRC no-one spoke Welsh this far north... > > Gordon. How far north is that ? The Hebrides are "Ynysoedd Heledd" in Welsh - Heledd being the tragic princess who lived there. Geoff. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/143 - Release Date: 19/10/05 From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 20 09:37:37 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:37:37 -0400 Subject: tapetools and VMS Backup tapes References: Message-ID: <17239.43953.883344.55963@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Shoppa writes: >> (1600 bpi), and some report a few hundred records of 16384, then a >> few at a smaller number, then more at 16384, etc. I'd think there >> were some read problems, but the tape wasn't shoe-shining Tim> Are the "smaller sized" records 80 bytes, and have tape marks Tim> near them? If so, these are the ANSI tape labels for volume Tim> start/end and saveset start/end. Tim> Even though you mount VMS BACKUP tapes /FOREIGN on a VMS system, Tim> they still have ANSI labels on them. Tim> If there are truly damaged records then the redundancy blocks Tim> (unless you turned them off) will help you. True, provided they occur one at a time. If you have two in a row, you're likely to be in trouble. paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 20 09:42:38 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:42:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Tube Audio Message-ID: <0ION006FTY5FGLO0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT: Tube Audio > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:40:01 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:57:58 -0400 >Allison wrote: > >> > >> >Subject: Re: OT: Tube Audio >> > From: "Chuck Guzis" >> > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:08:47 -0700 >> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > >> >On 10/19/2005 at 10:19 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: >> > >> >>OK, since there seem to be a fair amount of people into Tube audio, >> >>or at least with a knowledge of it. Would someone care to explain >> >>the following to someone that is used to an all in one unit such as a >> >>Sony Receiver. What is the purpose of separate Amp and Pre-Amps. I >> >>think I understand the whole phono pre-stage, but I've yet to find a >> >>decent explanation of the rest, and I'm looking to switch to tubes >> >>for playback of records (primarily Vinyl, but I'm also interested in >> >>78's). >> > >> >Purely from memory, but I believe one generally used a separate pre-amp >> >mostly due to hum issues. The power supply for the preamp could make use >> >of lower plate voltages, better regulation and DC heater supplies. >> > >> >Or so I think I recall. >> > >> >Cheers, >> >Chuck >> > >> >> No. Gads, creating answers revisionistically. Rare back then was a preamp >> with DC heaters. Besides without the oxygen free stabilized cables how >> could you appreciate it. ;) >> >My Dynaco preamp is from the early 60's and has a filtered DC power supply section for the heater filaments. > I didn't say nonexistant, only rare. Dynaco was amoung the best then. The alternate was a filiment that was balanced to ground to minimize the amplitude of AC heater to cathode coupling, also only seen on quality gear. Allison From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 20 09:45:00 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:45:00 -0400 Subject: Filters for RL02 References: <4753c5c47572a0.47572a04753c5c@direcway.com> Message-ID: <17239.44396.367697.696147@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Julian" == Julian Wolfe writes: Julian> That's the best price I've seen so far for RL02 absolutes - I Julian> may even buy a couple spares ;). Speaking of filters, did Julian> H96xx cabinets usually have a filter velcroed to the inside Julian> of the back door from the factory, or was that something Julian> someone added to my machine? My back door came with one. Julian> My BA11-K box has something similar set up in the front, 3 Julian> strips of velcro for what looks like may have been a filter. Julian> I'm not that sure because I never had the front panel for Julian> that particular box. I don't remember all the specifics of all the various boxes, but yes, that sounds correct. Those are foam filters, with large openings -- great for capturing big dirt, but not fine dust. Wash or vacuuom the filters occasionally. The H960 has a filter like that on the top surface, you slide it in between two bits of angle iron. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 20 09:54:23 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:54:23 -0400 Subject: A BDU's is born every minute ... References: <200510171020310872.2448F630@10.0.0.252> <200510171848.j9HImqYx004296@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20051018082802.04bd90c8@mail> <10510182132.ZM16158@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20051019184918.5cf36a97.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <17239.44959.343581.770371@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Scott" == Scott Stevens writes: Scott> Back when I experienced my first 'high speed' CDROM drive, Scott> which was on my new work computer, I heard the humming as the Scott> CD spun up and thought 'hmmm.' Scott> Then I started adding progressively more scotch tape to a spot Scott> on a CD to throw it off balance and investigate the noise Scott> level produced. I ran into that when I loaded a CD with a stick-on label. That's when I discovered that *everyone* except the manufacturers of that junk says that you should NOT put labels on CDs. And I no longer do; if I get one I peel it off. paul From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 10:00:20 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:00:20 -0400 Subject: A BDU's is born every minute ... In-Reply-To: <17239.44959.343581.770371@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200510171020310872.2448F630@10.0.0.252> <200510171848.j9HImqYx004296@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20051018082802.04bd90c8@mail> <10510182132.ZM16158@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20051019184918.5cf36a97.chenmel@earthlink.net> <17239.44959.343581.770371@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4357B104.9060406@gmail.com> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Scott" == Scott Stevens writes: > > > Scott> Back when I experienced my first 'high speed' CDROM drive, > Scott> which was on my new work computer, I heard the humming as the > Scott> CD spun up and thought 'hmmm.' > > Scott> Then I started adding progressively more scotch tape to a spot > Scott> on a CD to throw it off balance and investigate the noise > Scott> level produced. > > I ran into that when I loaded a CD with a stick-on label. > > That's when I discovered that *everyone* except the manufacturers of > that junk says that you should NOT put labels on CDs. And I no longer > do; if I get one I peel it off. I was able to get a CD unbalanced by putting too much ink on it from a Sharpie. It didn't come apart, it just made a lot of noise. Peace... Sridhar From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 20 11:02:33 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:02:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Tube Audio Message-ID: <20051020160233.57397.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > I didn't say nonexistant, only rare. Dynaco was amoung the best > then. The alternate was a filiment that was balanced to ground to > minimize the amplitude of AC heater to cathode coupling, also only > seen on quality gear. Another, rarer, alternate used with directly heated cathodes is to have two cathodes heated by a Scott wound transformer that gives two phase AC current with a 90 degree phase difference. This reduced heater generated noise because the noise is a function of the square of the heater voltage and sin^2 + cos^2 = 1, effectively a DC component. I have only ever seen this arrangement used on broadcast equipment. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 11:09:18 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8/A Front Panels In-Reply-To: <049801c5d4fa$8c8d2520$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <20051020160918.37693.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vince Slyngstad wrote: > Charles Morris and I have been working to create an > equivalent for the KC8A Nice, generally though the demand for something is much greater if you actually have it ready to ship (in case your preorder responses are low, don't get discouraged). Looks like your front panel and parts cost are constant with quantity, but your pc board drops greatly with quantity. If I were you I would just order 20 or so pc boards and let the buyers order the parts and panel separately (as needed, some buyers may not want the panel, others may already have most of the parts). __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 20 11:30:22 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:30:22 +0100 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051020101034.GA12091@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <200510150416.j9F4GHuk043800@keith.ezwind.net> <200510142140520245.1744C494@10.0.0.252> <20051020101034.GA12091@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <4357C61E.2020208@yahoo.co.uk> David Cantrell wrote: > On Fri, Oct 14, 2005 at 09:40:52PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >>I start grinding my teeth when I read stuff like this: >> >> PSHR R2 ; Push R2 onto the stack >> MVII 10,R1 ; Move 10 to R1 >> >>A comment on every line that describes exactly what's happening without any >>sort "big picture". Absolutely meaningless. > > > Grargh! When I wrote our coding guidelines at work, Ahh, I remember writing coding standards too... of course real comments are just numerical indexes into a comments database, so that your company can be international and supply code comments in many different languages... :-) That was such a scary thought I had to share it, although I suppose it does point out that comments are only useful if you speak the language they're written in, and there's no real substitute for decent code which goes a long way toward explaining itself... :-) cheers Jules From kth at srv.net Thu Oct 20 11:41:25 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:41:25 -0600 Subject: A BDU's is born every minute ... In-Reply-To: <17239.44959.343581.770371@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200510171020310872.2448F630@10.0.0.252> <200510171848.j9HImqYx004296@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20051018082802.04bd90c8@mail> <10510182132.ZM16158@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20051019184918.5cf36a97.chenmel@earthlink.net> <17239.44959.343581.770371@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4357C8B5.7090600@srv.net> Paul Koning wrote: >I ran into that when I loaded a CD with a stick-on label. > >That's when I discovered that *everyone* except the manufacturers of >that junk says that you should NOT put labels on CDs. And I no longer >do; if I get one I peel it off. > > Just be careful that you don't pull off the aluminum layer that it is stuck to, or you won't be able to read it. Maybe a better option would be to add a similiar sized label 180 degress from the original to balance it out. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 20 11:35:16 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:35:16 +0100 Subject: Bell and Howell "Digital Video Presentation" system In-Reply-To: <43570A52.4010002@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46.73fa89ce.30884ecd@aol.com> <20051019185208.W25900@shell.lmi.net> <200510191946270180.309BC59E@10.0.0.252> <43570A52.4010002@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4357C744.7030006@yahoo.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> >> On 10/19/2005 at 6:54 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> >>>> Anyone know any more details? Did Bell and Howell ever do any other >>>> computer-based systems? >>> >>> >>> Hell and Bowel made and sold all kinds of AV equipment. There were >>> several things that they sold that had computers, besides their >>> rebadged ][. >> > > I am starting to wonder if it's a vintage piece of kit at all to be > honest! Bit more info.. apparently the actual unit was made by a company called de Grafe (zero info via google so far) in the mid-80's, and B&H just acted as agents to sell it. Sounds like it has a display, keyboard and tablet, and outputs data to video tape. No mention of a CPU box, so I'm assuming that's buried in the display unit at the moment - be interesting to see what it is. That's all I know so far, but I'm curious... :) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 20 11:48:04 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:48:04 +0100 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... Message-ID: <4357CA44.5000307@yahoo.co.uk> ... discussion about this on another list got me curious - what *was* the point of that cable twist in a (IBM clone) PC floppy cable, when every other system on the planet was using straight-through cables? 1) Great, it means both drives in a system can be jumpered for the same ID - but someone's still got to go in and jumper/modify the last drive in the chain so that it's terminated, so it's not like the twist eliminates messing around with jumpers. 2) when the twist was introduced, there were presumably no clone machines around (it was there from day 1 IIRC) - and wouldn't the addition of a second floppy drive to an IBM machine have been a field service call anyway? So it's not like it was the general public changing jumpers, but a trained engineer... 3) IBM seemed to use a very small range of drives in the PC / XT / 286 days, so it's not like there'd be a million jumper combinations to figure out. If a customer tried to add their own drive rather than buying through IBM, surely IBM couldn't care less if they struggled to figure the drive jumpers on their 'non-standard' unit out? It's got me curious as it seems like a hack that doesn't completely solve any kind of problem whilst introducing a difference between IBM and the rest of the industry. cheers Jules From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Oct 20 11:57:22 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:57:22 +0100 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4357C61E.2020208@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <005801c5d597$5847ddd0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Jules Richardson wrote: > That was such a scary thought I had to share it, although I suppose it > does point out that comments are only useful if you speak the language > they're written in, and there's no real substitute for decent code > which goes a long way toward explaining itself... :-) I presume that you realise that "decent code which goes a long way toward explaining itself" is subject to the same restriction, i.e. you need to understand the human language in which the implementor chose to write the variable and function names. Or do you believe that running decent code through a "shrouding" program will have no effect on your ability to understand it? Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 20 12:00:34 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:00:34 -0400 Subject: A BDU's is born every minute ... References: <200510171020310872.2448F630@10.0.0.252> <200510171848.j9HImqYx004296@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20051018082802.04bd90c8@mail> <10510182132.ZM16158@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20051019184918.5cf36a97.chenmel@earthlink.net> <17239.44959.343581.770371@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4357C8B5.7090600@srv.net> Message-ID: <17239.52530.873650.92538@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Handy writes: Kevin> Paul Koning wrote: >> I ran into that when I loaded a CD with a stick-on label. >> >> That's when I discovered that *everyone* except the manufacturers >> of that junk says that you should NOT put labels on CDs. And I no >> longer do; if I get one I peel it off. >> >> Kevin> Just be careful that you don't pull off the aluminum layer Kevin> that it is stuck to, or you won't be able to read it. Kevin> Maybe a better option would be to add a similiar sized label Kevin> 180 degress from the original to balance it out. I'm talking about the Neato [sic] labels, which are round and pretend to be balanced. Not. paul From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 12:18:44 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:18:44 -0700 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... In-Reply-To: <4357CA44.5000307@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4357CA44.5000307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200510201018440266.011910D6@10.0.0.252> On 10/20/2005 at 5:48 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >... discussion about this on another list got me curious - what *was* >the point of that cable twist in a (IBM clone) PC floppy cable, when >every other system on the planet was using straight-through cables? It's actually pretty simple--there's only a single "motor on" line for the standard floppy pinout. IBM wanted to control drive motors individually. The only ways to do that are with individual drive cables or using the "twist" (or some modification of it) so that the individual drive motor enables are given different conductors in the cable. Other systems using "straight through" cables switched all drive motors on and off--and many consequently used drives with head-load solenoids. IBM's solution let them economize a bit on power-supply design and use a cheaper (and quieter) drive without the head-load mechanism. FWIW, IBM makes no mention of terminator removal or addition and I don't even recall if the standard 5.25" drive allowed one to play with termination. On one of the ISA floppy/hard controllers--I think it was DTC--you could add a third drive to the string using a special cable and a drive jumpered for DS0. (I'd have to check my doc files to get the rest of the details on the cable construction). Cheers, Chuck From charlesmorris at direcway.com Thu Oct 20 12:21:03 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris at direcway.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:21:03 -0400 Subject: computer speedometer Message-ID: <48ed57c48edd3b.48edd3b48ed57c@direcway.com> >I was reminiscing to someone about an old GE mainframe > with an analog meter that registered Kops/sec. ... made by Keystone Electronics perhaps? :) -Charles From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Thu Oct 20 12:33:11 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:33:11 -0400 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... Message-ID: Regarding the drive termination, I distinctly remember pulling terminators on the middle drive in a two-drive setup...just like a SCSI chain. I don't know about new drives (because I don't usually have multiple drives in my machines now), but some more modern Teac drives have a termination jumper rather than a resistor DIP pack. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 1:19 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: PC floppy cable twists... On 10/20/2005 at 5:48 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >... discussion about this on another list got me curious - what *was* >the point of that cable twist in a (IBM clone) PC floppy cable, when >every other system on the planet was using straight-through cables? It's actually pretty simple--there's only a single "motor on" line for the standard floppy pinout. IBM wanted to control drive motors individually. The only ways to do that are with individual drive cables or using the "twist" (or some modification of it) so that the individual drive motor enables are given different conductors in the cable. Other systems using "straight through" cables switched all drive motors on and off--and many consequently used drives with head-load solenoids. IBM's solution let them economize a bit on power-supply design and use a cheaper (and quieter) drive without the head-load mechanism. FWIW, IBM makes no mention of terminator removal or addition and I don't even recall if the standard 5.25" drive allowed one to play with termination. On one of the ISA floppy/hard controllers--I think it was DTC--you could add a third drive to the string using a special cable and a drive jumpered for DS0. (I'd have to check my doc files to get the rest of the details on the cable construction). Cheers, Chuck From charlesmorris at direcway.com Thu Oct 20 12:38:33 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris at direcway.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:38:33 -0400 Subject: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) Message-ID: <48f30d048f63b7.48f63b748f30d0@direcway.com> Now that I have an apparently functioning PDP-8/A with 16K of core, and (hopefully soon) a working RL02, I am wondering what operating system would be appropriate. Currently I don't have any other input device aside from the programmer's panel and the keyboard, so naturally I need something that can be booted from an RL02... Any recommendations? Will software written for, say, an 8/E or 8/I run on an 8/A without patching? Could I run OS/8? TSS/8? Many years ago I used to have access to a TTY timeshared to an 8/E running Edusystem 50 (TSS/8) and would like that "feel" again... thanks Charles From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 20 12:52:56 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:52:56 +0100 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <005801c5d597$5847ddd0$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <005801c5d597$5847ddd0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <4357D978.40204@yahoo.co.uk> a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > >>That was such a scary thought I had to share it, although I suppose it >>does point out that comments are only useful if you speak the language >>they're written in, and there's no real substitute for decent code >>which goes a long way toward explaining itself... :-) > > > I presume that you realise that "decent code which goes > a long way toward explaining itself" is subject to the > same restriction, i.e. you need to understand the human > language in which the implementor chose to write the > variable and function names. Yes, but it does really just boil down to variable and function names - and it's a lot easier to look those up using a dictionary than it is to understand the full language needed to read comments. I've been there before with both Spanish and German code (neither a language that I know) and if the code's written well it's just a few minutes extra armed with a dictionary before it all makes sense, without really the need for the comments. Actually, I've seen a lot of pretty meaningless English comments over the years which only serve to mask bad code - I guess there's no substitute for programmers actually understanding the (coding) language which they're writing in (which seems to be a rarer thing as time goes one) > Or do you believe that > running decent code through a "shrouding" program > will have no effect on your ability to understand it? I'm not saying yes you your question, but interesting observation: Personally I find that the layout and use of whitespace in higher-level langauges goes a long way toward making it understandable. It's still possible to quickly parse code with meaningless variable / function names providing it's well laid out. Of course, that's subject to the app/driver/whatever being sufficiently modular and of good design in the first place. I've seen some really nasty stuff over the years where it's next to impossible to understand :-) Actually, bad memories flooding back here! One of the worst situations I came across was a function of several thousand lines of code, doing many different jobs, and without a single comment. This in a high level language too. Variable names were human-readable (not just 'i' or whatever), but only valid contextually once within the several thousand lines of code (and not necessarily the first time they were used, either). Various statements never even got reached for all possible valid inputs, *and* the function was recursive for certain input states. Picking that apart was something of a challenge... cheers Jules From jdrcpeterson at graceba.net Thu Oct 20 13:01:02 2005 From: jdrcpeterson at graceba.net (J. Darren Peterson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:01:02 -0500 Subject: anyone have a DEC RA82 service manual? Message-ID: <00d101c5d5a0$3c981290$6ed1939b@nase.ds.army.mil> Anyone have a DEC RA82 service manual? Darren Peterson From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Oct 20 13:01:17 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Snoopy calendars/ASCII art In-Reply-To: <000401c5cdbe$6d14fee0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <000401c5cdbe$6d14fee0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > What program would have made this calendar and is one still > available, somewhere, that I could run on Windows or through something like > SIMH? If you haven't already found it, here's some FORTRAN code for the PDP-11 for making Snoopy calendars: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rsts/decus/sig87/087018/snpcal.for The other required files are in the parent directory. The same basic code in a VMS share file is at: http://ftp.se.kde.org/pub/usenet/ftp.uu.net/comp.sources.games/vmsnet.sources.games/snoopy/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 13:05:57 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:05:57 -0700 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510201105570621.01444CA0@10.0.0.252> On 10/20/2005 at 1:33 PM Cini, Richard wrote: >Regarding the drive termination, I distinctly remember pulling terminators >on the middle drive in a two-drive setup...just like a SCSI chain. I don't >know about new drives (because I don't usually have multiple drives in my >machines now), but some more modern Teac drives have a termination jumper >rather than a resistor DIP pack. You're right--I went and checked my O&A tech reference and the 5.25" drive did indeed have a 150 ohm pullup terminator (RP1 on the schematic). I wonder how many people adding a drive just left them on? While not exactly within design specs (48 ma per gate), a 7438 section on the controller should be able to drive 66 ma (75 ohm to +5) load without too much trouble. And the drives were close enough together on the cable that one didn't have to worry about reflections too much. What I find curious is the use of 150 ohms as a pullup. IIRC, the MFM hard drive, which had much trickier signal timing used a 220/330 terminator pack (220 to +5, 330 to ground). Cheers, Chuck From vrs at msn.com Thu Oct 20 13:19:11 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:19:11 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/A Front Panels References: <20051020160918.37693.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: "steve" > --- Vince Slyngstad wrote: > > Charles Morris and I have been working to create an > > equivalent for the KC8A > > Nice, generally though the demand for something is > much greater if you actually have it ready to ship (in > case your preorder responses are low, don't get > discouraged). Thanks! > Looks like your front panel and parts cost are > constant with quantity, but your pc board drops > greatly with quantity. If I were you I would just > order 20 or so pc boards and let the buyers order the > parts and panel separately (as needed, some buyers may > not want the panel, others may already have most of > the parts). The problem with that is that it forces us to front hundreds of dollars, with no indication that we'll ever get it back. I already have boards sitting around from several projects, representing hundreds of dollars of investment on my part, that may never "sell" (even at cost). It is a lot better for us to have some idea of the demand, so we can mitigate how much "over-investment" we want to do. Though you are right, that if we found someone who would pick up the overhead cost of a board order ($200 each time), we would be way ahead. (Anyone know of a shop that can do a double-sided 16" board with solder mask and without a steep setup charge?) The other major ticket item for this project is the front plate. Anyone know where we can get those done inexpensively? Vince From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 20 13:18:03 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:18:03 +0100 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... In-Reply-To: <200510201018440266.011910D6@10.0.0.252> References: <4357CA44.5000307@yahoo.co.uk> <200510201018440266.011910D6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4357DF5B.70404@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/20/2005 at 5:48 PM Jules Richardson wrote: > > >>... discussion about this on another list got me curious - what *was* >>the point of that cable twist in a (IBM clone) PC floppy cable, when >>every other system on the planet was using straight-through cables? > > > It's actually pretty simple--there's only a single "motor on" line for the > standard floppy pinout. IBM wanted to control drive motors individually. > The only ways to do that are with individual drive cables or using the > "twist" (or some modification of it) so that the individual drive motor > enables are given different conductors in the cable. Brilliant - most informative, thanks :) (although I've seen mention of the hack-like nature of the cable twist on this list before, I don't remember anyone ever saying why it was done!) That does beg the question of whether there's any other jumpering to worry about when putting a PC-setup floppy onto a classic system (other than getting the drive select jumpering right). cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 20 13:35:21 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:35:21 -0400 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... Message-ID: <0IOO00KI38X7MAB0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: PC floppy cable twists... > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:48:04 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >.... discussion about this on another list got me curious - what *was* >the point of that cable twist in a (IBM clone) PC floppy cable, when >every other system on the planet was using straight-through cables? > >1) Great, it means both drives in a system can be jumpered for the same >ID - but someone's still got to go in and jumper/modify the last drive >in the chain so that it's terminated, so it's not like the twist >eliminates messing around with jumpers. Jumpers were not messed with. Drive arrived, plugged in and go. Cost of delivering service was by then high enough that giving the drive away to avoid the call was actually becomming loss avoidence! >2) when the twist was introduced, there were presumably no clone >machines around (it was there from day 1 IIRC) - and wouldn't the >addition of a second floppy drive to an IBM machine have been a field >service call anyway? So it's not like it was the general public changing >jumpers, but a trained engineer... There was no jumper change. All had pullups and they are sized to allow two in parallel without problems. >3) IBM seemed to use a very small range of drives in the PC / XT / 286 >days, so it's not like there'd be a million jumper combinations to >figure out. If a customer tried to add their own drive rather than >buying through IBM, surely IBM couldn't care less if they struggled to >figure the drive jumpers on their 'non-standard' unit out? 2 is greater than 1. Cost to stock two is greater than one. >It's got me curious as it seems like a hack that doesn't completely >solve any kind of problem whilst introducing a difference between IBM >and the rest of the industry. > >cheers > >Jules You missed the most basic reason. One part, one bin, one stocking number and less standing stock. Logistics of warehousing costs and space not electrical design. Everyone seems to forget or even miss that not too long after the PC was introduced and clones appeared the costs of producing, stocking and servicing them were under great pressure. Anything that cost, even pennies, could put a vendor at risk. Why did some vendors disappear? Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 20 13:41:19 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:41:19 -0400 Subject: OT: Tube Audio Message-ID: <0IOO00DGS975CUB1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: OT: Tube Audio > From: lee davison > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:02:33 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk > >> I didn't say nonexistant, only rare. Dynaco was amoung the best >> then. The alternate was a filiment that was balanced to ground to >> minimize the amplitude of AC heater to cathode coupling, also only >> seen on quality gear. > >Another, rarer, alternate used with directly heated cathodes is to >have two cathodes heated by a Scott wound transformer that gives >two phase AC current with a 90 degree phase difference. This >reduced heater generated noise because the noise is a function of >the square of the heater voltage and sin^2 + cos^2 = 1, effectively >a DC component. > >I have only ever seen this arrangement used on broadcast equipment. > >Lee. The other technique is far simpler. Balance, do the same thing only in mirror image. The reduction in hum and some types of noise is substantial and tube engineers understood it well. The common examples were 3A5s, 810s or maybe 813s in push pull pairs (both have directly heated cathodes). Allison From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Oct 20 13:41:06 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:41:06 -0400 Subject: A BDU's is born every minute ... References: <200510171020310872.2448F630@10.0.0.252> <200510171848.j9HImqYx004296@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20051018082802.04bd90c8@mail> <10510182132.ZM16158@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20051019184918.5cf36a97.chenmel@earthlink.net> <17239.44959.343581.770371@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4357B104.9060406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008501c5d5a5$d5353000$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 11:00 AM Subject: Re: A BDU's is born every minute ... > > I was able to get a CD unbalanced by putting too much ink on it from a > Sharpie. It didn't come apart, it just made a lot of noise. > > Peace... Sridhar That's funny, I have yet to have issues with stability using CD labels on CDR recorded media even on my 52x drive. Most of my CDs have stick-it-right or cheapo IBM labels applied with a NEATO applicator device. The stick-it-right labels cannot be removed without destroying the CD, and are very good at keeping the data layer from getting scratched, too bad you can't really find them anymore except online (or maybe not even there since I have not looked for them in years). From spc at conman.org Thu Oct 20 13:45:20 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510200538590811.0018F48F@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 20, 2005 05:38:59 AM Message-ID: <20051020184520.8CE1E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > > On 10/20/2005 at 11:10 AM David Cantrell wrote: > > >> PSHR R2 ; Push R2 onto the stack > >> MVII 10,R1 ; Move 10 to R1 > > Anyone recognize the system for which the above assembly code is written? Hmmm ... registers are numbered, and it's SRC,DEST format ... I'd guess one of the later PDPs like a PDP-10 or PDP-11. -spc (guest a wild guess ... ) From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Oct 20 13:51:46 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:51:46 -0400 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... References: <0IOO00KI38X7MAB0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <008c01c5d5a7$52279e30$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 2:35 PM Subject: Re: PC floppy cable twists... > > You missed the most basic reason. One part, one bin, one stocking number > and less standing stock. Logistics of warehousing costs and space not > electrical design. > > Everyone seems to forget or even miss that not too long after the PC was > introduced and clones appeared the costs of producing, stocking and servicing > them were under great pressure. Anything that cost, even pennies, could put > a vendor at risk. Why did some vendors disappear? > > > Allison The original clone makers still had a huge profit margin so a few pennies would not have mattered until the huge 1989-91 shakeout where pretty much everybody started competing on nothing else but price (and purchasing power benefits). I remember advertisements (early 90's ?) where DELL was comparing its server to Compaq and it was thousands less for the same spec machine. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Oct 20 13:51:46 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051020184520.8CE1E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051020184520.8CE1E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200510201854.OAA13740@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>> PSHR R2 ; Push R2 onto the stack >>>> MVII 10,R1 ; Move 10 to R1 > Hmmm ... registers are numbered, and it's SRC,DEST format ... I'd > guess ne of the later PDPs like a PDP-10 or PDP-11. Not the 11; I know that, and the opcode names and syntax are all wrong. (On the 11, that'd be "mov r2,-(sp)" and "mov #10,r1" (DEC syntax) or "mov r2,*-sp" and "mov $10,r1" (Unix syntax, if I've remembered it right).) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jhoger at pobox.com Thu Oct 20 14:00:58 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:00:58 -0700 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4357D978.40204@yahoo.co.uk> References: <005801c5d597$5847ddd0$5b01a8c0@pc1> <4357D978.40204@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1129834858.22816.55.camel@aragorn> On Thu, 2005-10-20 at 18:52 +0100, Jules Richardson wrote: > Variable names were human-readable (not just 'i' or > whatever), but only valid contextually once within the several thousand > lines of code (and not necessarily the first time they were used, > either). Various statements never even got reached for all possible > valid inputs, *and* the function was recursive for certain input states. > Picking that apart was something of a challenge... > Yeah it's funny... they give you a hard time in school, and people have gotten fired/reprimanded for use of goto but no one ever got fired for using recursion. Recursive algorithm variants are usually the first thing they teach you in school. But recursion makes for much harder to understand code, and also for code that is usually not appropriate for resource constrained platforms because of limited stack space. A recursive algorithm can be quite elegant and easier to understand in a limited, useless educational example. But once you start adding all the little bells and whistles (like, say, exception handling) it quickly becomes a hairy mess. True story, nightmare comment: /* all descriptor processing converges here */ Converges!!??? That's when I threw in the towel. There were bugs there that would never be fixed short of a rewrite. Believe it or not, it was for an aircraft, but apparently the in-flight entertainment subsytem doesn't get the same scrutiny as the code that will make the aircraft flip upside down. -- John. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 20 14:07:49 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:07:49 -0400 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... Message-ID: <0IOO005JNAFBTUH1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PC floppy cable twists... > From: "Teo Zenios" > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:51:46 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Allison" >To: >Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 2:35 PM >Subject: Re: PC floppy cable twists... > > >> >> You missed the most basic reason. One part, one bin, one stocking number >> and less standing stock. Logistics of warehousing costs and space not >> electrical design. >> >> Everyone seems to forget or even miss that not too long after the PC was >> introduced and clones appeared the costs of producing, stocking and >servicing >> them were under great pressure. Anything that cost, even pennies, could >put >> a vendor at risk. Why did some vendors disappear? >> >> >> Allison > >The original clone makers still had a huge profit margin so a few pennies >would not have mattered until the huge 1989-91 shakeout where pretty much >everybody started competing on nothing else but price (and purchasing power >benefits). I remember advertisements (early 90's ?) where DELL was comparing >its server to Compaq and it was thousands less for the same spec machine. But it did matter. It was only a matter of time that some vendors that were bleeding from the eyes tossed in the towel or were gobbled up. one of the major steps was to move to offshore production to reduce product costs. >From inside the industry it was already apprent by the late 80s that costs were under pressure. The clone companies often had a great advantage as they were smaller and less burdened than IBM, DEC and others. By '91 some were already dead or dieing. Allison From allain at panix.com Thu Oct 20 14:09:16 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:09:16 -0400 Subject: anyone have a DEC RA82 service manual? References: <00d101c5d5a0$3c981290$6ed1939b@nase.ds.army.mil> Message-ID: <005101c5d5a9$c50bc780$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Anyone have a DEC RA82 service manual? I think I have the field service manual somewhere, AKA a pocket maintenence guide. John A. From spc at conman.org Thu Oct 20 14:22:39 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:22:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <1129834858.22816.55.camel@aragorn> from "John R. Hogerhuis" at Oct 20, 2005 12:00:58 PM Message-ID: <20051020192239.1F0B173029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great John R. Hogerhuis once stated: > > A recursive algorithm can be quite elegant and easier to understand in a > limited, useless educational example. But once you start adding all the > little bells and whistles (like, say, exception handling) it quickly > becomes a hairy mess. I used to think that recursion was useless, due to the examples given in school, like multiplication, the Fibonacci sequence or the Towers of Hanoi, but in the past few years, I've found a few places (only a few) where it does lead to a clean implementation, usually dealing with tree-structured data, like a file system: process(dir) { foreach entry in (dir) { if (entry isa file) then munge(entry) else if (entry isa directory) process(entry) } } But with that exception, I rarely use recursion. Also, modern languages tend to convert tail-recursion into loops. For instanace, in Erlang [1]: fib(N) -> fibitr(1,0,N). fibitr(_,B,0) -> B; fibitr(A,B,Count) -> fibitr(A + B,A,Count - 1). The Erland compiler can convert the recursive function fibitr/3 [2] into a version that loops. The naive version: fib(0) -> 0; fib(1) -> 1; fib(N) -> fib(N-1) + fib(N-2). Is *MUCH* slower, since it isn't tail recursive. -spc (Erlang *might* be on topic ... ) [1] A Language developed by Ericcson to run their phone switches. It's an interesting language [2] the fibitr function that takes three parameters. And in Erland, variables don't have types, values do. [3] [3] Ick. But hey, it's what all the modern lanaguages are doing nowadays. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 14:30:54 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:30:54 -0400 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510201854.OAA13740@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20051020184520.8CE1E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> <200510201854.OAA13740@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4357F06E.1060109@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >>>>> PSHR R2 ; Push R2 onto the stack >>>>> MVII 10,R1 ; Move 10 to R1 >> >>Hmmm ... registers are numbered, and it's SRC,DEST format ... I'd >>guess ne of the later PDPs like a PDP-10 or PDP-11. > > > Not the 11; I know that, and the opcode names and syntax are all wrong. > (On the 11, that'd be "mov r2,-(sp)" and "mov #10,r1" (DEC syntax) or > "mov r2,*-sp" and "mov $10,r1" (Unix syntax, if I've remembered it > right).) GI CP1610? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 14:34:22 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:34:22 -0400 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051020192239.1F0B173029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051020192239.1F0B173029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <4357F13E.5070701@gmail.com> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great John R. Hogerhuis once stated: > >>A recursive algorithm can be quite elegant and easier to understand in a >>limited, useless educational example. But once you start adding all the >>little bells and whistles (like, say, exception handling) it quickly >>becomes a hairy mess. > > > I used to think that recursion was useless, due to the examples given in > school, like multiplication, the Fibonacci sequence or the Towers of Hanoi, > but in the past few years, I've found a few places (only a few) where it > does lead to a clean implementation, usually dealing with tree-structured > data, like a file system: Recursion makes a lot of sorting/searching algorithms much cleaner too. Plus, IMHO the recursive factorial (x!) algorithm looks a lot less complicated. Peace... Sridhar From spedraja at ono.com Thu Oct 20 14:38:51 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:38:51 +0200 Subject: Software for one Osborne Vixen References: <00d101c5d5a0$3c981290$6ed1939b@nase.ds.army.mil> <005101c5d5a9$c50bc780$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <007001c5d5ad$e6a86020$1602a8c0@ACER> Hello. I've received some time ago one Osborne Vixen. It's in working state. I should like to obtain software for it, or even try with software for previous versions of the Osborne portable family of computers. Are there available in some place in the Internet disk images for it, or could someone how own them send me a copy, please ? Off list to discuss the details, please. Thanks. Sergio From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 14:41:26 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:41:26 -0700 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510201854.OAA13740@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20051020184520.8CE1E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> <200510201854.OAA13740@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200510201241260038.019BB541@10.0.0.252> On 10/20/2005 at 2:51 PM der Mouse wrote: >>>>> PSHR R2 ; Push R2 onto the stack >>>>> MVII 10,R1 ; Move 10 to R1 >> Hmmm ... registers are numbered, and it's SRC,DEST format ... I'd >> guess ne of the later PDPs like a PDP-10 or PDP-11. > >Not the 11; I know that, and the opcode names and syntax are all wrong. >(On the 11, that'd be "mov r2,-(sp)" and "mov #10,r1" (DEC syntax) or >"mov r2,*-sp" and "mov $10,r1" (Unix syntax, if I've remembered it >right).) No prize yet. Hint: it's a microprocessor, not a mini (it's not the IM6100 or LSI 11). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 14:47:24 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:47:24 -0700 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4357F06E.1060109@gmail.com> References: <20051020184520.8CE1E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> <200510201854.OAA13740@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4357F06E.1060109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510201247240583.01A12DD3@10.0.0.252> On 10/20/2005 at 3:30 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >GI CP1610? DING! Give the man a seegar! Back when I was fooling with 16-bit micro processors, I first looked at the National PACE and then the CP1600 (there weren't too many choices back then). I wirewrapped up an S-100 board for each. CP1600 had a nice architecture, but a screwy 10-bit wide instruction word (even though data was 16 bits). So instructions that should have required only 2 words actually took 3. The PACE was just too weird for me--and both were really slow, particularly when run off of an 8 bit bus. Cheers, Chuck From mokuba at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 14:52:38 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:52:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/20/05 2:25 AM, "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote: > > God damn it. This isn't the fucking antique radio mailing list. Take it > to a more appropriate list or take it off-list. All I can say ... O.O From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 14:57:06 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:57:06 -0700 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4357F13E.5070701@gmail.com> References: <20051020192239.1F0B173029@linus.groomlake.area51> <4357F13E.5070701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510201257060941.01AA10A8@10.0.0.252> On 10/20/2005 at 3:34 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Recursion makes a lot of sorting/searching algorithms much cleaner too. > >Plus, IMHO the recursive factorial (x!) algorithm looks a lot less >complicated. Not to offend the purists, but... >From an efficiency standpoint, recursion is seldom the best solution in the real world as opposed to an iterative solution. With recursion, you're using the CALL mechanism to provide a new data frame and arguments for each iteration. With a simple loop, an indexed array can provide the same functionality at much lower overhead--and be more predictable as to the amount of storage required. Perhaps there are architectures where this is not true, but in my production codes, I've found it more efficient to climb directory trees with a simple loop--with an index limit check, rather than, say, throwing an exception for stack overflow in the case of recursion. Argumentatively, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 15:03:14 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:03:14 -0400 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510201257060941.01AA10A8@10.0.0.252> References: <20051020192239.1F0B173029@linus.groomlake.area51> <4357F13E.5070701@gmail.com> <200510201257060941.01AA10A8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4357F802.50707@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>Recursion makes a lot of sorting/searching algorithms much cleaner too. >> >>Plus, IMHO the recursive factorial (x!) algorithm looks a lot less >>complicated. > > Not to offend the purists, but... > >>From an efficiency standpoint, recursion is seldom the best solution in the > real world as opposed to an iterative solution. With recursion, you're > using the CALL mechanism to provide a new data frame and arguments for each > iteration. With a simple loop, an indexed array can provide the same > functionality at much lower overhead--and be more predictable as to the > amount of storage required. > > Perhaps there are architectures where this is not true, but in my > production codes, I've found it more efficient to climb directory trees > with a simple loop--with an index limit check, rather than, say, throwing > an exception for stack overflow in the case of recursion. But I wasn't talking about efficiency, I was talking about cleanliness. Hand-optimized iterative assembler is some of the most efficient code I can think of, but a lot of the time, it tends not to be very clean. The right tool for the right job, and all. Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Oct 20 15:04:01 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:04:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510201257060941.01AA10A8@10.0.0.252> References: <20051020192239.1F0B173029@linus.groomlake.area51> <4357F13E.5070701@gmail.com> <200510201257060941.01AA10A8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510202010.QAA14111@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > From an efficiency standpoint, recursion is seldom the best solution > in the real world as opposed to an iterative solution. Only from a very narrow "runtime cycle count (and/or RAM usage, etc) is everything" standpoint. When you consider that most code is not time-critical and that the iterative form is usually significantly harder for humans to get their heads around, it is usually better to burn more runtime cycles for the sake of lower maintenance costs. Obviously, there are exceptions. That's why I used words like "most" and "usually". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 15:18:33 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:18:33 -0700 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4357F802.50707@gmail.com> References: <20051020192239.1F0B173029@linus.groomlake.area51> <4357F13E.5070701@gmail.com> <200510201257060941.01AA10A8@10.0.0.252> <4357F802.50707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510201318330681.01BDB2FC@10.0.0.252> On 10/20/2005 at 4:03 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >But I wasn't talking about efficiency, I was talking about cleanliness. Uh, oh! You're beginning to sound like a Windows programmer! No--I take that back--most Windows code isn't clean or efficient. :) Cheers, Chuck From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 20 15:22:33 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:22:33 -0400 Subject: Language for the ages References: <20051020192239.1F0B173029@linus.groomlake.area51> <4357F13E.5070701@gmail.com> <200510201257060941.01AA10A8@10.0.0.252> <4357F802.50707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <17239.64649.639565.185933@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: Sridhar> But I wasn't talking about efficiency, I was talking about Sridhar> cleanliness. Hand-optimized iterative assembler is some of Sridhar> the most efficient code I can think of, but a lot of the Sridhar> time, it tends not to be very clean. Sridhar> The right tool for the right job, and all. Right. But part of the "right job" is the error cases. On a machine with VM and lots of memory and/or a large page file, and auto-expanding stacks, recursion is great. In an embedded system, or in the kernel, where the stack is small and not expandable, recursion is very dangerous. You will often end up with unrealiable systems with hard to track bugs. It will turn out that the stack overflowed and smashed some other bits, and you'll have a very hard time finding the bug. And since the amount of stack space used (and available) is hard to predict and will depend on what the compiler happens to be doing in that version, up front range checks are difficult. Conversely, an iterative routine that uses an explicitly allocated context array is slightly more wordy, but massively safer. And with a small amount of care you can make it look a whole lot like the recursive solution, but with explicit stacking of state in an explicit state vector. paul From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Oct 20 15:28:22 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:28:22 +0100 Subject: anyone have a DEC RA82 service manual? In-Reply-To: <00d101c5d5a0$3c981290$6ed1939b@nase.ds.army.mil> Message-ID: <006101c5d5b4$d35d64f0$5b01a8c0@pc1> J. Darren Peterson wrote: > Anyone have a DEC RA82 service manual? > > Darren Peterson There's a print set here: http://www.vt100.net/manx/search?on=0&cp=1&q=ra82 Oddly, noone has scanned the service manual (I don't have one, before you ask) but there are more docs for the RA81: http://www.vt100.net/manx/search?on=0&cp=1&q=ra81 You might be able to use the RA81 docs to guide your reading of the RA82 FMPS. Or maybe someone will admit to having a copy of the RA82 SVG squirrelled away somewhere? Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 15:45:34 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:45:34 -0400 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510201318330681.01BDB2FC@10.0.0.252> References: <20051020192239.1F0B173029@linus.groomlake.area51> <4357F13E.5070701@gmail.com> <200510201257060941.01AA10A8@10.0.0.252> <4357F802.50707@gmail.com> <200510201318330681.01BDB2FC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <435801EE.3070208@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/20/2005 at 4:03 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>But I wasn't talking about efficiency, I was talking about cleanliness. > > Uh, oh! You're beginning to sound like a Windows programmer! No--I take > that back--most Windows code isn't clean or efficient. :) But later on, I said to use the right tool for the right job. Many Windows programmers don't do that either. Clean code when the code needs to be clean. Efficient code when the code needs to be efficient. Peace... Sridhar From fire at dls.net Thu Oct 20 15:45:06 2005 From: fire at dls.net (Bradley Slavik) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:45:06 -0500 Subject: Replacing Old LEDs Message-ID: Dear Classic Computers, I regret that my EE knowledge was never deep and is a little rusty now. I am refurbishing some old PC boards and wanted to replace a few of the LED which had become damaged or broken off. Here is my lame question, how do I correctly pick replacement LEDs? I know colors, and size, but how do I make certain that I have picked correct wattage, etc.? If some one with more experience could provide a few sentences of guidance I would be grateful. I can even put a Tektronix scope on it and take measurements if necessary. Bradley Slavik From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 15:46:47 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:46:47 -0400 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <17239.64649.639565.185933@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20051020192239.1F0B173029@linus.groomlake.area51> <4357F13E.5070701@gmail.com> <200510201257060941.01AA10A8@10.0.0.252> <4357F802.50707@gmail.com> <17239.64649.639565.185933@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <43580237.8000007@gmail.com> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > > Sridhar> But I wasn't talking about efficiency, I was talking about > Sridhar> cleanliness. Hand-optimized iterative assembler is some of > Sridhar> the most efficient code I can think of, but a lot of the > Sridhar> time, it tends not to be very clean. > > Sridhar> The right tool for the right job, and all. > > Right. But part of the "right job" is the error cases. On a machine > with VM and lots of memory and/or a large page file, and > auto-expanding stacks, recursion is great. > > In an embedded system, or in the kernel, where the stack is small and > not expandable, recursion is very dangerous. You will often end up > with unrealiable systems with hard to track bugs. It will turn out > that the stack overflowed and smashed some other bits, and you'll have > a very hard time finding the bug. And since the amount of stack space > used (and available) is hard to predict and will depend on what the > compiler happens to be doing in that version, up front range checks > are difficult. > > Conversely, an iterative routine that uses an explicitly allocated > context array is slightly more wordy, but massively safer. And with a > small amount of care you can make it look a whole lot like the > recursive solution, but with explicit stacking of state in an explicit > state vector. I think you're agreeing with me here. Write clean code when the code needs to be clean. Write efficient code when the code needs to be efficient. Most people overestimate the former and underestimate the latter, of course. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 16:03:53 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:03:53 +1300 Subject: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) In-Reply-To: <48f30d048f63b7.48f63b748f30d0@direcway.com> References: <48f30d048f63b7.48f63b748f30d0@direcway.com> Message-ID: On 10/21/05, charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: > Now that I have an apparently functioning PDP-8/A with 16K of core, and (hopefully soon) a working RL02, I am wondering what operating system would be appropriate. In the case of the gear from the 1970s, OS/8 was rather expected. You _can_ do all sorts of stuff with paper tape (using a modern machine to emulate it), but for machine with block-addressable storage (DECtape, floppy, hard disk), OS/8 was by far and away the most popular. > Currently I don't have any other input device aside from the programmer's panel > and the keyboard, so naturally I need something that can be booted from an > RL02... You may or may not have an RL boot PROM in your KM8AA, but if you don't, you can always key in the RL bootstrap by hand. > Any recommendations? Will software written for, say, an 8/E or 8/I run on an 8/A without patching? Generally speaking, yes. The changes to the instruction set are minor and meant to be additive, but a really clever 8/i programmer can trip you up. There's a reason FOCAL does some probes to determine CPU type. > Could I run OS/8? TSS/8? Many years ago I used to have access to a TTY timeshared to an 8/E running Edusystem 50 (TSS/8) and would like that "feel" again... Dunno about TSS/8 on an RL (probably no driver for anything newer than an RF08), but certainly OS/8. One caveat - there is a different driver for the RL01 and for the RL02. I myself have never used an RL02 on an 8/a. An expensive configuration for a DECmate I was an RL02, so I'm sure OS/78 supports it, but you might have to cherry-pick your OS/8 version to go with a larger disk. -ethan From mbbrutman at brutman.com Thu Oct 20 16:14:48 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:14:48 -0500 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... In-Reply-To: <200510202021.j9KKKm2H072123@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510202021.j9KKKm2H072123@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <435808C8.7060704@brutman.com> For the longest time I was stumped about how to get four drives onto a PC 5150. The BIOS supports it, but looking at the cable it just shouldn't work. There was the twist to control drive select and the one motor line - that's not enough to control four drives. I started kicking myself really hard when I rememberd that the other two drives had to go on the external cable, which has it's own motor and drive select line ... Still, mapping out the PC floppy cable compared to other systems was interesting. Even compared to an AT it is different. The AT supports a high density signal line on a previously unused pin. The other systems looked like they had independent drive select lines, but as somebody else pointed out, the motors all ran at the same time. With all of those pins on the interface, why wouldn't the motors be independently controlled? That seems like a waste on any system, never mind the wear and tear on the drives & inserted floppies. Mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 20 15:33:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:33:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unix on BBC micro with 16032 coprocessor In-Reply-To: <435707BB.8050308@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 20, 5 03:58:03 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >>>Silly random thought. IIRC, there's an empty 40 pin DIL socket on the ACW > >>>coprocessor board, and I think it's on the 32016 sencond processor board > >>>too (I must come and collect that from you). Wasn't that for an MMU chip? > >> > >>Yep, you're right (about there being empty sockets on both versions of > >>the board). I suppose it's logical it'd be an MMU chip given that > >>there's no other connectors to the board (e.g. it's not for an optional > >>serial chip or whatever). > > > > I've checked my ACW schematics, and it is for an 32082 MMU chip. > > Funnily enough, mention of that socket just cropped up on the BBC list, > and someone remembers their father working on one of these boards with a > floating point unit fitted into that socket via a small daughtercard. > They're willing to admit that they may be misremembering though! > > Would that be a possibility though, or is it definitely an MMU socket? The scoket is certainly for an MMU chip (32082). It's the right pinout for that. I seem to rememebr there's some timing-fix PROM/PAL that goes with it, but I can't be sure (and I certainly don't have the contents of said device) That said, I think it would have been possible to make a daughterboard with the FPU chip (32081 IIRC) on it. There may have been the odd extra signal you'd have to pick up with a kludgewire, but most of the ones you need are on that socket. So the story you heard might well have been true. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 20 15:39:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:39:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: <200510192308470615.31550399@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 19, 5 11:08:47 pm Message-ID: > >OK, since there seem to be a fair amount of people into Tube audio, > >or at least with a knowledge of it. Would someone care to explain > >the following to someone that is used to an all in one unit such as a > >Sony Receiver. What is the purpose of separate Amp and Pre-Amps. I > >think I understand the whole phono pre-stage, but I've yet to find a > >decent explanation of the rest, and I'm looking to switch to tubes > >for playback of records (primarily Vinyl, but I'm also interested in > >78's). > > Purely from memory, but I believe one generally used a separate pre-amp > mostly due to hum issues. The power supply for the preamp could make use > of lower plate voltages, better regulation and DC heater supplies. > > Or so I think I recall. In the case of the 2 main 'classic' English systems (Quad and Leak), there was no electrical reason for the 2 units that I can see. The preamplifier valves had an AC heater supply shared with the amplifier valves. The preamplifer HT+ (B+) line came from the main amplifier HT+ line (OK, with an RC decoupling network). In fact Quad even ran the radio tuner valves off the amplifier supply. I think the real reason was that the valve power amplifier was heavy and bulky. By putting the controls on the preampifier (in fact at least one of those manufacturers called it the 'control unit'), you could stick the PSU/power amplifier chassis out of the way and just have to fit the relatively small preamplifier on the shelf/cabinet. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 20 15:42:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:42:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051020101034.GA12091@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> from "David Cantrell" at Oct 20, 5 11:10:36 am Message-ID: > Grargh! When I wrote our coding guidelines at work, I made it very > clear that comments shuold describe the algorithm, not just each line of > code. So, for example, instead of "Push R2 onto the stack" it would say > "squirrel R2 away because it's gonna get clobbered in a minute and we'll I feel it would also be sensible to describe what R2 contains -- something like 'save the disk track number because we're going to have to clobber that register in a minute' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 20 15:53:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:53:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC floppy cable twists... In-Reply-To: <4357CA44.5000307@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 20, 5 05:48:04 pm Message-ID: > > > ... discussion about this on another list got me curious - what *was* > the point of that cable twist in a (IBM clone) PC floppy cable, when > every other system on the planet was using straight-through cables? > > 1) Great, it means both drives in a system can be jumpered for the same > ID - but someone's still got to go in and jumper/modify the last drive That was part of it. The jumper hlock on the original Tandon drives was of those infernal things where you break the metal bars with a sharp screwdriver. > in the chain so that it's terminated, so it's not like the twist > eliminates messing around with jumpers. Didn't it? OK, there was still the termination pack that had to be fitted on the last drive on the cable (which was A:), but there were no jumpers to fiddle with. > > 2) when the twist was introduced, there were presumably no clone > machines around (it was there from day 1 IIRC) - and wouldn't the > addition of a second floppy drive to an IBM machine have been a field > service call anyway? So it's not like it was the general public changing > jumpers, but a trained engineer... Remember IBM did make the service manual (boardswapping) and TechRef available to anyone. I think it was expected that some users would do such upgrades themselves (but then again such users would have known how to set jumpers). > > 3) IBM seemed to use a very small range of drives in the PC / XT / 286 > days, so it's not like there'd be a million jumper combinations to > figure out. If a customer tried to add their own drive rather than > buying through IBM, surely IBM couldn't care less if they struggled to > figure the drive jumpers on their 'non-standard' unit out? > > It's got me curious as it seems like a hack that doesn't completely > solve any kind of problem whilst introducing a difference between IBM > and the rest of the industry. You've missed the real reason... The twist doesn't just swap over 2 of the the select lines, it also swaps the motor-on line with one of the other, unused, select lines. This means the motor-on lines for the 2 drives end up on different pins of the controller connector, so the motors can be controlled seperately (and independantly of drive select). Now quite why you'd want to do this I don't know, but that, IMHO, is the reason for the twist. It does something you can't do with link settings alone. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 20 16:27:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:27:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replacing Old LEDs In-Reply-To: from "Bradley Slavik" at Oct 20, 5 03:45:06 pm Message-ID: > > Dear Classic Computers, > > I regret that my EE knowledge was never deep and is > a little rusty now. I am refurbishing some old PC > boards and wanted to replace a few of the LED which > had become damaged or broken off. Here is my lame > question, how do I correctly pick replacement LEDs? > I know colors, and size, but how do I make certain > that I have picked correct wattage, etc.? Unless they were doing something 'clever' like using the LED as a poor-quality voltage reference [1], then it's not going to be that critical. I assume thsse LEDs were used simply as indicators. Pick the same physical size, same colour (the forward voltage drop does depend on the colour), and for old stuff you don't want the modern 'high efficiency' or 'low current' LEDs. If you have more choice, pick something where the specified forward current (may be called If) is around 10-20mA. That's the value for most, if not, all, general purpose LEDs. [1] At least one Zenith MDA monitor used that trick.... -tony From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Thu Oct 20 16:28:56 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:28:56 -0400 Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions Message-ID: <4B8F087A-8CC3-4F65-8083-ABDFEB8AA8EE@xlisper.mv.com> Does anyone have a spare RL01 drive select plug for drive "0"? I recently acquired an RL01 drive (thanks Lyle Bickly and Jon Miles!) but it's missing its drive select plug. This is one of the four lights on the front of the drive that has the number "0" printed on it for drive 0. Does anyone have one they're willing to part with? Also, the PDP-11/73 that I acquired is in a BA11-NC box. Does anyone know how much power the power supply in this box can supply? There is a list of the cards in the box and the power each one consumes and I've inserted an additional card (an RQDX1 controller) that draws 6.4A at 5V and I'm not sure that the power supply can handle it. That would bring the total to 26.9A at 5V where the original total was 22.3A. I could remove a DHV11 card that draws 4.3A to bring the total down to 22.6A if necessary. What is save with this power supply? Thanks, David From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 16:29:33 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:29:33 -0700 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <4357F802.50707@gmail.com> References: <20051020192239.1F0B173029@linus.groomlake.area51> <4357F13E.5070701@gmail.com> <200510201257060941.01AA10A8@10.0.0.252> <4357F802.50707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510201429330076.01FEB13F@10.0.0.252> On 10/20/2005 at 4:03 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >The right tool for the right job, and all. Actually, this dovetails very neatly with the topic and perhaps illustrates the difference in thought between the C/Java/Algol and the FORTRAN camps. It all depends on where you live (mentally). At least up until F77, recursion was not a part of the language--and in fact, was prohibited by many implementations. To a great extent, this hinged on the lack of a hardware-facilitated stack. For many machines, the subroutine call sequence looked like this: EXIT: JUMP *-* ENTRY: first instruction .... JUMP EXIT The machine's CALL instruction would simply store the return address in the location just before the subroutine's entry point. Yes, I know--it's code modification, but it wasn't such a pariah until relatively recent times. Storage local to the subroutine (as well as any memory needed to save the caller's context) was kept in static space. You work with what you've got (try implementing a recursive call mechanism with local storage on an IBM 1620 Model I). Tens, if not hundreds of millions of lines of production code was written this way. Pure recursion was not unknown, but was generally held to be something for the textbooks. While recursion was not generally used, occasionally routines needed to exhibit parallel reentrancy, particularly in the case of event processing, such as I/O and so did need to maintain some sort of stack structure. This sort of thing was usually dreaded by programmers, not because of the inability to code such stuff, but rather because of the difficulty in debugging reentrant code. I believe that this still holds today--and IMOHO the same applies for debugging recursive code failures. On the other hand, an iterative code overflow generally allows for one to make a graceful exit and preserve of the history of the loop. There's rarely any question about "how do I get back to the point of origin?" (i.e. unwind the stack). I remember in a SNOBOL programming course taught by none other than Bob Dewar, the "Tower of Hanoi" example was trotted out. Immediately, one of the students pointed out that it was far easier to write an iterative solution in just about any other language than SNOBOL--and perhaps the real problem was that SNOBOL lacked good iteration facilities. Suffice it to say that Dr. Dewar was not amused. I think this illustrates perfectly how thinking has gradually shifted over the years. Who knows what common practice today will become the b?te noir of tomorrow? Perhaps state machine models will be the next trend and both iteration and recursion will be viewed as hopelessly quaint... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 16:37:35 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:37:35 -0700 Subject: Replacing Old LEDs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510201437350720.02060E93@10.0.0.252> On 10/20/2005 at 3:45 PM Bradley Slavik wrote: >I regret that my EE knowledge was never deep and is >a little rusty now. I am refurbishing some old PC >boards and wanted to replace a few of the LED which >had become damaged or broken off. Here is my lame >question, how do I correctly pick replacement LEDs? >I know colors, and size, but how do I make certain >that I have picked correct wattage, etc.? If you're talking about vintage garden-variety red or green LEDs, just pick replacements with the same size and color. In general, LED's today are more efficient than the old ones and offer a wider choice of illumination angles but newer ones should work just fine as replacement for the antiques. Most red LED's still exhibit a forward voltage drop of about 1.6 volts and the practice is to insert a current-limiting resistor in series with the diode, so your risk is negligible. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 20 16:47:49 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:47:49 -0400 Subject: Language for the ages Message-ID: <0IOO00ERVHTY4KV1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Language for the ages > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:41:26 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/20/2005 at 2:51 PM der Mouse wrote: > >>>>>> PSHR R2 ; Push R2 onto the stack >>>>>> MVII 10,R1 ; Move 10 to R1 >>> Hmmm ... registers are numbered, and it's SRC,DEST format ... I'd >>> guess ne of the later PDPs like a PDP-10 or PDP-11. >> >>Not the 11; I know that, and the opcode names and syntax are all wrong. >>(On the 11, that'd be "mov r2,-(sp)" and "mov #10,r1" (DEC syntax) or >>"mov r2,*-sp" and "mov $10,r1" (Unix syntax, if I've remembered it >>right).) > >No prize yet. Hint: it's a microprocessor, not a mini (it's not the >IM6100 or LSI 11). > I'd either punt for 68k or 32000. Allison From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 20 16:49:32 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:49:32 -0400 Subject: Replacing Old LEDs References: <200510201437350720.02060E93@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <17240.4332.134682.111954@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> On 10/20/2005 at 3:45 PM Bradley Slavik wrote: >> I regret that my EE knowledge was never deep and is a little rusty >> now. I am refurbishing some old PC boards and wanted to replace a >> few of the LED which had become damaged or broken off. Here is my >> lame question, how do I correctly pick replacement LEDs? I know >> colors, and size, but how do I make certain that I have picked >> correct wattage, etc.? Chuck> If you're talking about vintage garden-variety red or green Chuck> LEDs, just pick replacements with the same size and color. That should work for yellow and orange too. But (unlikely case in vintage gear) it may give you trouble for blue, since there are at least two very different semiconductors in blue LEDs: silicon carbide, and some III/V compound (GaP? GaN?) which almost certainly have different forward drops. paul From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 16:53:41 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:53:41 -0700 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... In-Reply-To: <435808C8.7060704@brutman.com> References: <200510202021.j9KKKm2H072123@dewey.classiccmp.org> <435808C8.7060704@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200510201453410408.0214CACC@10.0.0.252> On 10/20/2005 at 4:14 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: >With all of those pins on the interface, why wouldn't the motors be >independently controlled? That seems like a waste on any system, never >mind the wear and tear on the drives & inserted floppies. But there really aren't any unused pins. Remember that all of the odd-numbered pins are grounded, so that leaves only 16 for signals. Pin 2 was originally reserved for "reduced write current" signalling (or "density select'). Pin 4 was for "Head load" and was a spare only on some drives that didn't have that feature and pin 34 was used for disk change/ready. There really aren't any spares. Besides, with a "head load" facility, who needed to control the motors individually? But the PC didn't use a drive with a head load facility... Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 20 17:12:59 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC floppy cable twists... In-Reply-To: <4357CA44.5000307@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4357CA44.5000307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051020150852.U87053@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > ... discussion about this on another list got me curious - what *was* > the point of that cable twist in a (IBM clone) PC floppy cable, when > every other system on the planet was using straight-through cables? > > 2) when the twist was introduced, there were presumably no clone > machines around (it was there from day 1 IIRC) - and wouldn't the > addition of a second floppy drive to an IBM machine have been a field > service call anyway? So it's not like it was the general public changing > jumpers, but a trained engineer... IBM sold through Computerland, Businessland, and a few others. They had to simplify it enough that Computerland "technicians" could add a drive without damaging anything. SOME Computerland technicians were competent. Some others failed entry exams at Fry's. > figure out. If a customer tried to add their own drive rather than > buying through IBM, surely IBM couldn't care less if they struggled to > figure the drive jumpers on their 'non-standard' unit out? When somebody adds a B: drive, they could blame IBM when the A: drive would no longer work. > It's got me curious as it seems like a hack that doesn't completely > solve any kind of problem whilst introducing a difference between IBM > and the rest of the industry. . . . and you were looking for a REASON? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 20 17:19:37 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:19:37 -0400 Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions Message-ID: <0IOO00H3EJAXV9Q1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions > From: David Betz > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:28:56 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Does anyone have a spare RL01 drive select plug for drive "0"? I >recently acquired an RL01 drive (thanks Lyle Bickly and Jon Miles!) >but it's missing its drive select plug. This is one of the four >lights on the front of the drive that has the number "0" printed on >it for drive 0. Does anyone have one they're willing to part with? > >Also, the PDP-11/73 that I acquired is in a BA11-NC box. Does anyone >know how much power the power supply in this box can supply? There is >a list of the cards in the box and the power each one consumes and >I've inserted an additional card (an RQDX1 controller) that draws >6.4A at 5V and I'm not sure that the power supply can handle it. That >would bring the total to 26.9A at 5V where the original total was >22.3A. I could remove a DHV11 card that draws 4.3A to bring the total >down to 22.6A if necessary. What is save with this power supply? > >Thanks, >David BA-11N +5 at 22A +12 at 11A max assumes H9273 mackplane and H786 PS I have a system that I subbed in a H7861 to the BA11N that PS is same size and form factor but +5 at 36A and +12 at 5A (typically found in BA11S). As most newer boards had a greater need for +5 than +12. If you don't need the serial lines then pull the DHV11. I've found running the supply right at the limit was not the best for reliability. Also the RQDX1 was not a very good version unless it was upgraded to RQDX2. the reason is it didn't support RX33, and the largest disk if memory serves for RQDX1 was RD52 (30mb quantum D540). RQDX2 supported the RD53(70mb) and RD54 (150mb). The RQDX3 supported more drives and is a bit lighter in current draw (RD31 and 32 plus RX33). ALSO the RQDX1 MUST BE LAST ON THE BUS. Many of the RQDX1 controllers lacked GRANT pass down. Allison From djg at pdp8.net Thu Oct 20 17:19:07 2005 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:19:07 -0400 Subject: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) Message-ID: <200510202219.j9KMJ7N03287@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> > Now that I have an apparently functioning PDP-8/A with 16K of core, and > (hopefully soon) a working RL02, I am wondering what operating system > would be appropriate. Currently I don't have any other input device aside > from the programmer's panel and the keyboard, so naturally I need something > that can be booted from an RL02... > > Any recommendations? Will software written for, say, an 8/E or 8/I run on > an 8/A without patching? > >Could I run OS/8? TSS/8? Many years ago I used to have access to a TTY >timeshare d to an 8/E running Edusystem 50 (TSS/8) and would like >that "feel" again... The 8/A was compatible with the earlier machines so software should work unless they were requiring an option which isn't on the 8/A. OS/8 is your best bet. TSS/8 won't work with an RL drive. For multi user operating systems the only one that will run on your hardware is Multos-8. The version that has been recovered doesn't seem to operate well though. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 20 17:23:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:23:36 -0400 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... Message-ID: <0IOO00JF9JHKBG21@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PC floppy cable twists... > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:53:41 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/20/2005 at 4:14 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >>With all of those pins on the interface, why wouldn't the motors be >>independently controlled? That seems like a waste on any system, never >>mind the wear and tear on the drives & inserted floppies. > >But there really aren't any unused pins. Remember that all of the >odd-numbered pins are grounded, so that leaves only 16 for signals. Pin 2 >was originally reserved for "reduced write current" signalling (or "density >select'). Pin 4 was for "Head load" and was a spare only on some drives >that didn't have that feature and pin 34 was used for disk change/ready. >There really aren't any spares. > >Besides, with a "head load" facility, who needed to control the motors >individually? But the PC didn't use a drive with a head load facility... > >Cheers, >Chuck Once upon a time drive need time to spin up before you loaded the head and read it. As drives improved that time shortend and the motors went to brushless where relibility didn't degrade with stops and starts (brush motors this is a relability/wear issue). So having seperate motor enables allowed one to spin the drives and then allow a 10sec (or longer) timeout after last access before they would stop. Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 20 17:20:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 23:20:18 +0100 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <435801EE.3070208@gmail.com> References: <20051020192239.1F0B173029@linus.groomlake.area51> <4357F13E.5070701@gmail.com> <200510201257060941.01AA10A8@10.0.0.252> <4357F802.50707@gmail.com> <200510201318330681.01BDB2FC@10.0.0.252> <435801EE.3070208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43581822.4090709@yahoo.co.uk> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 10/20/2005 at 4:03 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >>> But I wasn't talking about efficiency, I was talking about cleanliness. >> >> Uh, oh! You're beginning to sound like a Windows programmer! No--I take >> that back--most Windows code isn't clean or efficient. :) > > But later on, I said to use the right tool for the right job. Many > Windows programmers don't do that either. Actually there appears to have been a basic shift in society's thinking on that front over the last 50 years or so. At one point the philosophy seemed to be lots of tools, and the right tool for the job. Nowadays it seems to be a case of one tool, and using the same tool for all jobs. (Personally the former approach seems far more sensible to me, but then I'm not an accountant :-) > Clean code when the code needs to be clean. Efficient code when the > code needs to be efficient. Or better still, do both. I think that often gets lost by programmers - that in nearly all cases it's possible to write highly efficient code that's also simple to understand. Mind you, I always gauge efficiency in terms of what the compiler turns out. I'm not a fan of the "efficiency" allowed in some languages (C being one of the biggest culprits!) which reduce the amount of typing but result in ten possible ways for the programmer to write the same thing - which ultimately gets compiled to the exact same binary anyway! cheers Jules From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Thu Oct 20 17:26:02 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:26:02 -0400 Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions In-Reply-To: <0IOO00H3EJAXV9Q1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOO00H3EJAXV9Q1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: Thanks for your reply. I guess I'm okay with power even if I leave in the DHV11 as it seems my BA11-N has been upgraded to a H7861 power supply already. I'll consider getting an RQDX3 instead of the RQDX1. Do you know if it uses the same cables to connect it with its drives? Actually, the only cable I have is to connect the RQDX1 to an RX50 floppy drive. I'll need a cable to connect it to a hard drive at some point. It seems that the RQDX3 cards are easier to come by than the cables. I've seen many cards on eBay but never any cables. On Oct 20, 2005, at 6:19 PM, Allison wrote: >> >> Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions >> From: David Betz >> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:28:56 -0400 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> >> Does anyone have a spare RL01 drive select plug for drive "0"? I >> recently acquired an RL01 drive (thanks Lyle Bickly and Jon Miles!) >> but it's missing its drive select plug. This is one of the four >> lights on the front of the drive that has the number "0" printed on >> it for drive 0. Does anyone have one they're willing to part with? >> >> Also, the PDP-11/73 that I acquired is in a BA11-NC box. Does anyone >> know how much power the power supply in this box can supply? There is >> a list of the cards in the box and the power each one consumes and >> I've inserted an additional card (an RQDX1 controller) that draws >> 6.4A at 5V and I'm not sure that the power supply can handle it. That >> would bring the total to 26.9A at 5V where the original total was >> 22.3A. I could remove a DHV11 card that draws 4.3A to bring the total >> down to 22.6A if necessary. What is save with this power supply? >> >> Thanks, >> David >> > > BA-11N +5 at 22A +12 at 11A max assumes H9273 mackplane and H786 PS > > I have a system that I subbed in a H7861 to the BA11N that PS is > same size > and form factor but +5 at 36A and +12 at 5A (typically found in BA11S). > As most > newer boards had a greater need for +5 than +12. > > If you don't need the serial lines then pull the DHV11. I've found > running the supply right at the limit was not the best for > reliability. > > Also the RQDX1 was not a very good version unless it was upgraded to > RQDX2. the reason is it didn't support RX33, and the largest disk > if memory serves for RQDX1 was RD52 (30mb quantum D540). RQDX2 > supported > the RD53(70mb) and RD54 (150mb). The RQDX3 supported more drives and > is a bit lighter in current draw (RD31 and 32 plus RX33). > > ALSO the RQDX1 MUST BE LAST ON THE BUS. Many of the RQDX1 controllers > lacked GRANT pass down. > > > Allison > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 20 17:53:15 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:53:15 -0400 Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions Message-ID: <0IOO00EYAKUZ4R32@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions > From: David Betz > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:26:02 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Thanks for your reply. I guess I'm okay with power even if I leave in >the DHV11 as it seems my BA11-N has been upgraded to a H7861 power Unless you need the IO I'd pull it anyway. The system will run cooler and I doubt you have need for the lines. DHV11 is a MUX and you need the chassis kit to break out all the serial lines. Most OSs for PDP11 don't use it (system build time option) and the DLV11J is easier to use and program. The DHV11 cannot be used for a console either. >supply already. I'll consider getting an RQDX3 instead of the RQDX1. >Do you know if it uses the same cables to connect it with its drives? All the RQDXn controlers use the same cables. You will need the RQDX breakout board (either out of the BA23 or M9058 out of the BA123) to take the 50pin wide RQDXn to drive cables. >Actually, the only cable I have is to connect the RQDX1 to an RX50 >floppy drive. I'll need a cable to connect it to a hard drive at some >point. It seems that the RQDX3 cards are easier to come by than the >cables. I've seen many cards on eBay but never any cables. The cables are nothing special. Your missing the intermediate board that gors from the 50pin RQDXn to the 43pin that RX50 or RX33 uses and the 34/26pin comblo that common MFM hard disks used. Sounds like you have something like my 11/73. Mine is 4mb ram, RL02, RX33, (2)RD52 and RX02, serial is DLV11j. I run unix V6, Rt11XM and XXDP. Allison >On Oct 20, 2005, at 6:19 PM, Allison wrote: > >>> >>> Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions >>> From: David Betz >>> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:28:56 -0400 >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> >>> Does anyone have a spare RL01 drive select plug for drive "0"? I >>> recently acquired an RL01 drive (thanks Lyle Bickly and Jon Miles!) >>> but it's missing its drive select plug. This is one of the four >>> lights on the front of the drive that has the number "0" printed on >>> it for drive 0. Does anyone have one they're willing to part with? >>> >>> Also, the PDP-11/73 that I acquired is in a BA11-NC box. Does anyone >>> know how much power the power supply in this box can supply? There is >>> a list of the cards in the box and the power each one consumes and >>> I've inserted an additional card (an RQDX1 controller) that draws >>> 6.4A at 5V and I'm not sure that the power supply can handle it. That >>> would bring the total to 26.9A at 5V where the original total was >>> 22.3A. I could remove a DHV11 card that draws 4.3A to bring the total >>> down to 22.6A if necessary. What is save with this power supply? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> David >>> >> >> BA-11N +5 at 22A +12 at 11A max assumes H9273 mackplane and H786 PS >> >> I have a system that I subbed in a H7861 to the BA11N that PS is >> same size >> and form factor but +5 at 36A and +12 at 5A (typically found in BA11S). >> As most >> newer boards had a greater need for +5 than +12. >> >> If you don't need the serial lines then pull the DHV11. I've found >> running the supply right at the limit was not the best for >> reliability. >> >> Also the RQDX1 was not a very good version unless it was upgraded to >> RQDX2. the reason is it didn't support RX33, and the largest disk >> if memory serves for RQDX1 was RD52 (30mb quantum D540). RQDX2 >> supported >> the RD53(70mb) and RD54 (150mb). The RQDX3 supported more drives and >> is a bit lighter in current draw (RD31 and 32 plus RX33). >> >> ALSO the RQDX1 MUST BE LAST ON THE BUS. Many of the RQDX1 controllers >> lacked GRANT pass down. >> >> >> Allison >> From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Thu Oct 20 18:02:24 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:02:24 -0400 Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions In-Reply-To: <0IOO00EYAKUZ4R32@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOO00EYAKUZ4R32@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <2237EF46-CB9B-4426-9946-3B94D27873CF@xlisper.mv.com> Mine is a KDJ11-A processor, RL01, RX50, RX02, MXV11-AC boot, 1.5mb memory. I'm planning on running RT-11 and maybe Unix. I'd like to add an RDxx drive. It looks like I'll have to find a different bootstrap board to boot off of an RDxx though. On Oct 20, 2005, at 6:53 PM, Allison wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions >> From: David Betz >> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:26:02 -0400 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> >> Thanks for your reply. I guess I'm okay with power even if I leave in >> the DHV11 as it seems my BA11-N has been upgraded to a H7861 power >> > > Unless you need the IO I'd pull it anyway. The system will run cooler > and I doubt you have need for the lines. DHV11 is a MUX and you need > the chassis kit to break out all the serial lines. Most OSs for PDP11 > don't use it (system build time option) and the DLV11J is easier to > use > and program. The DHV11 cannot be used for a console either. > > >> supply already. I'll consider getting an RQDX3 instead of the RQDX1. >> Do you know if it uses the same cables to connect it with its drives? >> > > All the RQDXn controlers use the same cables. You will need the RQDX > breakout board (either out of the BA23 or M9058 out of the BA123) > to take > the 50pin wide RQDXn to drive cables. > > >> Actually, the only cable I have is to connect the RQDX1 to an RX50 >> floppy drive. I'll need a cable to connect it to a hard drive at some >> point. It seems that the RQDX3 cards are easier to come by than the >> cables. I've seen many cards on eBay but never any cables. >> > > The cables are nothing special. Your missing the intermediate board > that gors from the 50pin RQDXn to the 43pin that RX50 or RX33 uses > and the 34/26pin comblo that common MFM hard disks used. > > Sounds like you have something like my 11/73. Mine is > > 4mb ram, RL02, RX33, (2)RD52 and RX02, serial is DLV11j. > I run unix V6, Rt11XM and XXDP. > > Allison > > >> On Oct 20, 2005, at 6:19 PM, Allison wrote: >> >> >>>> >>>> Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions >>>> From: David Betz >>>> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:28:56 -0400 >>>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>>> >>>> >>>> Does anyone have a spare RL01 drive select plug for drive "0"? I >>>> recently acquired an RL01 drive (thanks Lyle Bickly and Jon Miles!) >>>> but it's missing its drive select plug. This is one of the four >>>> lights on the front of the drive that has the number "0" printed on >>>> it for drive 0. Does anyone have one they're willing to part with? >>>> >>>> Also, the PDP-11/73 that I acquired is in a BA11-NC box. Does >>>> anyone >>>> know how much power the power supply in this box can supply? >>>> There is >>>> a list of the cards in the box and the power each one consumes and >>>> I've inserted an additional card (an RQDX1 controller) that draws >>>> 6.4A at 5V and I'm not sure that the power supply can handle it. >>>> That >>>> would bring the total to 26.9A at 5V where the original total was >>>> 22.3A. I could remove a DHV11 card that draws 4.3A to bring the >>>> total >>>> down to 22.6A if necessary. What is save with this power supply? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> David >>>> >>>> >>> >>> BA-11N +5 at 22A +12 at 11A max assumes H9273 mackplane and H786 PS >>> >>> I have a system that I subbed in a H7861 to the BA11N that PS is >>> same size >>> and form factor but +5 at 36A and +12 at 5A (typically found in BA11S). >>> As most >>> newer boards had a greater need for +5 than +12. >>> >>> If you don't need the serial lines then pull the DHV11. I've found >>> running the supply right at the limit was not the best for >>> reliability. >>> >>> Also the RQDX1 was not a very good version unless it was upgraded to >>> RQDX2. the reason is it didn't support RX33, and the largest disk >>> if memory serves for RQDX1 was RD52 (30mb quantum D540). RQDX2 >>> supported >>> the RD53(70mb) and RD54 (150mb). The RQDX3 supported more drives >>> and >>> is a bit lighter in current draw (RD31 and 32 plus RX33). >>> >>> ALSO the RQDX1 MUST BE LAST ON THE BUS. Many of the RQDX1 >>> controllers >>> lacked GRANT pass down. >>> >>> >>> Allison >>> >>> > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 18:02:43 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:02:43 -0700 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... In-Reply-To: <0IOO00JF9JHKBG21@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOO00JF9JHKBG21@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510201602430775.0253FFEA@10.0.0.252> On 10/20/2005 at 6:23 PM Allison wrote: >Once upon a time drive need time to spin up before you loaded the head >and read it. As drives improved that time shortend and the motors went >to brushless where relibility didn't degrade with stops and starts >(brush motors this is a relability/wear issue). So having seperate motor >enables allowed one to spin the drives and then allow a 10sec (or longer) >timeout after last access before they would stop. I think we're saying the same thing in different ways. If you don't have a head load signal, the head remains in contact with the media the entire time the media's in the drive. If the spindle is rotating, that leads to head and media wear the entire time (althought he drive needs to spin a bit to seat the media correctly when first inserted). If the motor's turned off, no media wear, even though the head's still in contact. And yes, motors with brushes will fail with time. When I wrote my first 8085 diskette driver, I just turned the drive motors on at boot, having come off an 8" floppy environment. I was admonished by a Micropolis engineer that this was not a good idea and that the motor should be turned on only when needed. So media was inserted into drives with the spindle at a dead stop, leading to serious problems with seating the media. So drives were modified to include a little spin-up when the drive door was being closed. Not everyone did this gracefully, however, leading to wrinkled areas around the media hub and so reinforcing rings were introduced. The interesting thing is the chicken-and-egg nature of this. Initially, you didn't want to spin the media all of the time on a 5.25" drive because the brushes in the DC motor would wear. So a motor control line was incorporated. But then, if you could stop the media from spinning, you didn't have to have a separate head-load mechanism to guard the meda and the head against wear while not in use. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 20 18:32:14 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:32:14 -0400 Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions Message-ID: <0IOO00JQ2MNXB691@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions > From: David Betz > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:02:24 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Mine is a KDJ11-A processor, RL01, RX50, RX02, MXV11-AC boot, 1.5mb >memory. I'm planning on running RT-11 and maybe Unix. I'd like to add >an RDxx drive. It looks like I'll have to find a different bootstrap >board to boot off of an RDxx though. Thats a strange config. Workable but strange. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 20 18:42:30 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:42:30 -0400 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... Message-ID: <0IOO00DJUN51UDV1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PC floppy cable twists... > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 16:02:43 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/20/2005 at 6:23 PM Allison wrote: > > > >I think we're saying the same thing in different ways. If you don't have a >head load signal, the head remains in contact with the media the entire >time the media's in the drive. If the spindle is rotating, that leads to >head and media wear the entire time (althought he drive needs to spin a bit >to seat the media correctly when first inserted). If the motor's turned >off, no media wear, even though the head's still in contact. Nope not talking about media wear at all. I'm talking about the SA400/TM100 generation drives that used a brush type motor with belt drive that have a far shorter life than most of the halfheights that use a brushless direct drive pancake motor. The media wear is less an issue than the other problem with double sided drives. Clapping, those with head load solinoids (SA450 comes to mind) the head load/unload would not be gentle on the media. Thats why most later drives continiously load the head even when not spinning. >And yes, motors with brushes will fail with time. When I wrote my first >8085 diskette driver, I just turned the drive motors on at boot, having >come off an 8" floppy environment. I was admonished by a Micropolis >engineer that this was not a good idea and that the motor should be turned >on only when needed. So media was inserted into drives with the spindle at >a dead stop, leading to serious problems with seating the media. So drives >were modified to include a little spin-up when the drive door was being >closed. Not everyone did this gracefully, however, leading to wrinkled >areas around the media hub and so reinforcing rings were introduced. Actually testing showed that freqquent start/stops were harder on the motor to a certain point. It was the high current that would eventually wear the commutator. If you ran the motors the problem was they were not ball bearing and the bushing would wear and the brushes as well. >The interesting thing is the chicken-and-egg nature of this. Initially, >you didn't want to spin the media all of the time on a 5.25" drive because >the brushes in the DC motor would wear. So a motor control line was >incorporated. But then, if you could stop the media from spinning, you >didn't have to have a separate head-load mechanism to guard the meda and >the head against wear while not in use. there was a balancing act. Wearout for mechanical reasons and surge startup. The trick was keeping the drive running once accessed as it was likely you'd be back soon, if not time out. That lowered the start stop cycle wear and got you closes to the mechanical wearout limit. The later drives with direct drive motors and the like eliminated those concerns. Then powering down was power/heat savings. Media wear, I've had disks spinning for years in clean environments and several dead drives that were still fine. Allison From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Thu Oct 20 18:41:56 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:41:56 -0400 Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions In-Reply-To: <0IOO00JQ2MNXB691@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOO00JQ2MNXB691@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: Supposedly, this system was originally used to develop TSX-Plus. I guess it had lots of different media on it for testing the various drivers. It also had an RL02 and a second RL01 but I didn't get those. On Oct 20, 2005, at 7:32 PM, Allison wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions >> From: David Betz >> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:02:24 -0400 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> >> Mine is a KDJ11-A processor, RL01, RX50, RX02, MXV11-AC boot, 1.5mb >> memory. I'm planning on running RT-11 and maybe Unix. I'd like to add >> an RDxx drive. It looks like I'll have to find a different bootstrap >> board to boot off of an RDxx though. >> > > Thats a strange config. Workable but strange. > > Allison > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 19:05:50 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:05:50 -0700 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... In-Reply-To: <0IOO00DJUN51UDV1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOO00DJUN51UDV1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510201705500996.028DC7BB@10.0.0.252> On 10/20/2005 at 7:42 PM Allison wrote: >Media wear, I've had disks spinning for years in clean environments and >several dead drives that were still fine. Dirt happens. It gets between the head and the media and doesn't do any favors to either. I've got several diskettes in my collection that have the oxide coating worn clear through on the directory track. Better to either stop the motor or lift the head. Around here, during the driest months of the year (August and Sepember), the clay soils turn to a very fine powder and become airborne. Hoiuse dust during those months tends to have a brownish color. Add to this that most PC's have fans on the power supply that are set to exhaust air from the box, which means that the drive slot is a convenient entry point for contamination. It used to be that fans were set blow the other way and filters were used. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Oct 20 19:13:48 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:13:48 -0500 Subject: lost all my phone numbers :\ In-Reply-To: <013201c5cfa0$feb46780$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <013201c5cfa0$feb46780$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <435832BC.8090701@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > Today I hit the wrong recessed button (of two) on my pdaphone.... > goodbye all phone numbers, email addresses, etc. Doesn't your phone sync to a PC? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 20 19:25:14 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:25:14 -0400 Subject: Language for the ages References: <20051020192239.1F0B173029@linus.groomlake.area51> <4357F13E.5070701@gmail.com> <200510201257060941.01AA10A8@10.0.0.252> <4357F802.50707@gmail.com> <200510201318330681.01BDB2FC@10.0.0.252> <435801EE.3070208@gmail.com> <43581822.4090709@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <17240.13674.139367.102342@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: >> Clean code when the code needs to be clean. Efficient code when >> the code needs to be efficient. Jules> Or better still, do both. I think that often gets lost by Jules> programmers - that in nearly all cases it's possible to write Jules> highly efficient code that's also simple to understand. Jules> Mind you, I always gauge efficiency in terms of what the Jules> compiler turns out. I'm not a fan of the "efficiency" allowed Jules> in some languages (C being one of the biggest culprits!) which Jules> reduce the amount of typing but result in ten possible ways Jules> for the programmer to write the same thing - which ultimately Jules> gets compiled to the exact same binary anyway! Excellent point. Many of the bizarre syntactic hacks in C (like foo++ or foo += bar) exist only because it allowed a primitive non-optimizing compiler to generate tolerably decent PDP-11 machine code. Then again, it's important to remember that no compiler can ever do as good a job as a skilled programmer taking advantage of *all* the relevant information for a particular problem. The reason is that there are always a number of bits of information that cannot be expressed in the programming language. Cases where this matters are not common, and don't appear at all in many applications, but they do appear in some. For example, the very simple problem statement "compute the byte by byte XOR across a set of input buffers and return that to the output buffer" (which is what RAID-5 storage arrays have to do very efficiently) has to be done in assembly language. You may be able to express "and by the way, the buffers are aligned to 512 byte boundaries and don't overlap" (in GCC at least, by using GCC-specific extensions) but no C compiler that I know of will let you express "and by the way, assume that none of the input buffers is currently in the processor cache, and furthermore assume that I don't care they are in the cache afterwards". paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 20 19:26:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:26:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC disk drive termination Message-ID: Somebody earlier claimed that IBM didn't bother with termination on the disk drives in the PC family. I've just looked in the 'Hardware Maintenance and Service' manual for the PC/AT. This is the only HMS manual I have (I don't normally bother with boardswapper guides), but I would be suprised if the same principles didn't apply to the PC. Anyway, the manual says : 'Diskette Drive o The terminating resistor must be installed on drive A (top unit). o In a system unit with 2 diskette drives, remove the terminating resistor from drive B (bottom unit) for proper operation. o The diskette drive end of the signal cable is attached to diskette drive A. Fixed disk drive o The terminating resistor must be installed on fixed disk drive C (left unit) o In a system unit with 2 fixed disk drives, remove the terminating resistor from fixed disk drive D (right unit) for proper operation ' There are diagramss showing the location of the terminating resistor pack on the drive PCB that I can't sensibly reproduce in ASCII. -tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 20 19:41:15 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:41:15 -0400 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... Message-ID: <0IOO00DC4PUYAYX1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PC floppy cable twists... > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:05:50 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/20/2005 at 7:42 PM Allison wrote: > >>Media wear, I've had disks spinning for years in clean environments and >>several dead drives that were still fine. > >Dirt happens. It gets between the head and the media and doesn't do any >favors to either. I've got several diskettes in my collection that have >the oxide coating worn clear through on the directory track. Better to >either stop the motor or lift the head. Around here, during the driest >months of the year (August and Sepember), the clay soils turn to a very >fine powder and become airborne. Hoiuse dust during those months tends to >have a brownish color. > >Add to this that most PC's have fans on the power supply that are set to >exhaust air from the box, which means that the drive slot is a convenient >entry point for contamination. It used to be that fans were set blow the >other way and filters were used. That is a PCism. That being those fans that suck unfilterd crud and cruft into the system. In the summer we do get brown dust from whatever. All of my systems cooling and air flow get attention even if it requires some card stock and tape duct work. Fans blow in and filters keep cat hair and other deutrius from getting in those places where it's going to do bad things. I find that tends to keep the inside of my PCs clean too. I turn the fan around and add a filter. Beats having a hairball clogging the cpu fan and crashing the system. Under those conditions I don't worry about my media unless its old and unknown. Allison From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 20 20:48:10 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:48:10 Subject: Weird BiPolar ROM programmer Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051020204810.3d0f35fc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I was out today and found an interesting looking box made by Aydin Controls. It looks like a BiPolar PROM programmer. It has two 8 pin ZIP sockets marked Read and two others marked Program along with several LED diplays (TIL 311s! :-) and a lot of switches and pushbuttons on it. It looks old so I decided to open it up and see what kind of microprocessor it had in it. However I couldn't find one! It has four AMD 2101 RAMs, twelve TIL 311 displays, a COM 2017 UART and a COM 5016 baud rate generator but everything else looks like standard 74xx TTL. I couldn't find anything that looked like ROM, PROM, EPROM or a CPU. Is it possible that this thing is all controlled by TTL logic? Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? FWIW most of the ICs are dated 1982 so I guess it that's when it was made. Joe From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 19:54:49 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:54:49 -0700 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... In-Reply-To: <0IOO00DC4PUYAYX1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOO00DC4PUYAYX1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510201754490011.02BA9C5A@10.0.0.252> On 10/20/2005 at 8:41 PM Allison wrote: >Under those conditions I don't worry about my media unless its old >and unknown. That's nice if you can make it happen, but I recall that our first commercial installation of a 5.25"-equipped system was in a parking garage... Cheers, Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Oct 20 20:10:07 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:10:07 -0500 Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051020201007.235e4983.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:26:14 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Somebody earlier claimed that IBM didn't bother with termination on the > disk drives in the PC family. > > I've just looked in the 'Hardware Maintenance and Service' manual for the > PC/AT. This is the only HMS manual I have (I don't normally bother with > boardswapper guides), I know you disagree with a 'boardswapping' culture deeply and do so with great conviction, but it's important to understand that there has always been a hierarchy in computer servicing. Customer Engineers have often only been trained to the level of identifying pulling and swapping boards, which then are shipped to a facility where expert troubleshooters do the component level testing and repair. I personally have worked in such a component-level board reworking facility. There are often fabulously skillful troubleshooters working at those benches. Often this repair function is carried out in the same facility where production rework is accomplished. And it would be a severe waste of expertise and skill for these people to be out driving around to customer sites performing mundane tasks. Boardswapping has a place and is a legitimate part of the history of computers going way, way back. It is how things were and are done, and it's not something to look down on. Of course, when working on vintage hardware where there is no longer a repair depot to ship the boards to, it is obviously a different matter. Restoring and operating old equipment is an artisan-type task. It's important not to pretend, however, that the published 'board swapping' service manuals are an abomination before nature. In many cases the detailed manuals and docs never leave the repair depot, which is a shame and a real loss for us today, but not a reflection of technical ignorance. -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 20 20:43:59 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:43:59 -0700 Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:25 PM -0700 10/19/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >God damn it. This isn't the fucking antique radio mailing list. Take it >to a more appropriate list or take it off-list. Sam, would it help if I pointed out that I posted the question here, thanks to your rant and the thread it started? :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 20:53:10 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8/A Front Panels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051021015310.51570.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> --- vrs wrote: > > The problem with that is that it forces us to front > hundreds > of dollars, with no indication that we'll ever get > it back. Well I'm not familiar with mini's so I can't say what the demand will be for your specific product. One thing you got going for you is time, vintage computer related products will not go obsolete, ever :) __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 20 21:10:13 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:10:13 -0400 Subject: Weird BiPolar ROM programmer Message-ID: <0IOO00LNUTZ78ML0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Weird BiPolar ROM programmer > From: "Joe R." > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:48:10 +0000 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > I was out today and found an interesting looking box made by Aydin >Controls. It looks like a BiPolar PROM programmer. It has two 8 pin ZIP >sockets marked Read and two others marked Program along with several LED >diplays (TIL 311s! :-) and a lot of switches and pushbuttons on it. It >looks old so I decided to open it up and see what kind of microprocessor it >had in it. However I couldn't find one! It has four AMD 2101 RAMs, twelve >TIL 311 displays, a COM 2017 UART and a COM 5016 baud rate generator but >everything else looks like standard 74xx TTL. I couldn't find anything that >looked like ROM, PROM, EPROM or a CPU. Is it possible that this thing is >all controlled by TTL logic? Has anyone ever seen anything like this >before? FWIW most of the ICs are dated 1982 so I guess it that's when it >was made. > > Joe I used to blast bipolar proms using switches and some ttl so yes it could be a simple sequential logic thing. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 20 21:15:03 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:15:03 -0400 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... Message-ID: <0IOO001LGU79FLD0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PC floppy cable twists... > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:54:49 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/20/2005 at 8:41 PM Allison wrote: > >>Under those conditions I don't worry about my media unless its old >>and unknown. > >That's nice if you can make it happen, but I recall that our first >commercial installation of a 5.25"-equipped system was in a parking >garage... > >Cheers, >Chuck Well thats the challenge as an engineer. Good, Fast, Cheap, pick any two. Allison From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Thu Oct 20 21:18:38 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:18:38 -0700 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: <001101c5d5e5$c88ba830$0300a8c0@downstairs2> With all of this ragging on audio nut who spend obscene amounts of money on wire, I decided to at a look. I don't know why we call them crazy, they don't have 1975 computer running in the basement. The guy in the next office is in to high end audio. (Although he claims that he is in the lower end of the people in his audio club.) I asked if he had a power cord so I could take some pictures. He had a spare PS Audio xStream Statement Power Cable, the 2 meter version lists for $550. This is 6 gauge oxygen free copper with machined connectors. The cord has a ferrite impregnated jacket. Here is my short review of the power cord http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_F/PS_Audio.htm I took it home and hooked it up to my new custom case computer which also cost me about $550. It is a modern 3 GHz Pentium that looks like a 1975 SWTPC 6800. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_F/MP_F.htm#NewCover From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Thu Oct 20 21:38:02 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:38:02 -0400 Subject: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? Message-ID: <9493AA95-B9AD-4DE7-82D1-688D5BA118CF@xlisper.mv.com> I've made a bit of progress with my new 11/73 (got a prompt from console ODT), but I found a problem. One of the power supply fans is dead. Anyone know where I can get a replacement fan for the H7861 power supply? Thanks, David From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 20 21:52:40 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:52:40 -0400 Subject: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? Message-ID: <0IOO00IVTVXYACE0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? > From: David Betz > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:38:02 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I've made a bit of progress with my new 11/73 (got a prompt from >console ODT), but I found a problem. One of the power supply fans is >dead. Anyone know where I can get a replacement fan for the H7861 >power supply? > >Thanks, >David Memory test is; they are Rotron or equivelent 120V AC fans. Measure one and look it up on the net. FYI they push a fair amount of air. so any 120V fan that uses the same ac current and fits is likely a good match. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 20 21:57:54 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:57:54 -0400 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: <0IOO00C2JW6OJP31@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 > From: "Michael Holley" > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:18:38 -0700 > To: > >With all of this ragging on audio nut who spend obscene amounts of money on >wire, I decided to at a look. I don't know why we call them crazy, they >don't have 1975 computer running in the basement. > >The guy in the next office is in to high end audio. (Although he claims that >he is in the lower end of the people in his audio club.) I asked if he had >a power cord so I could take some pictures. He had a spare PS Audio xStream >Statement Power Cable, the 2 meter version lists for $550. This is 6 gauge >oxygen free copper with machined connectors. The cord has a ferrite >impregnated jacket. > >Here is my short review of the power cord >http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_F/PS_Audio.htm If the sound doesnt improve is there a fee to decontaminate the plug of the outlet cruft? ;) >I took it home and hooked it up to my new custom case computer which also >cost me about $550. It is a modern 3 GHz Pentium that looks like a 1975 >SWTPC 6800. >http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_F/MP_F.htm#NewCover Nice case. I need to work out a way to get the picture of my Altair-11 up. Whats an Altair-11 it's a old Altair 8800 case with a PDP-11/23 inside H780 PS, H9281AC 12 slot backplane and a RD52. Allison From fire at dls.net Thu Oct 20 22:26:58 2005 From: fire at dls.net (Bradley Slavik) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:26:58 -0500 Subject: Replacing Old LEDs Message-ID: I believe that all these LEDs are on ISA or EISA cards, circa 1987. Let me be more specific now that I have gone to radio shack. In 5mm red LEDs they have 12volt, 2.6v, 1.8v Here are web pages: http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=276-2 09 ? 5mm Red LED $1.29 ?????Brand: RadioShack Catalog #: 276-209 ?????Model: 276-209 Availability On-line: In-stock In Store: Check availability Phone: In-stock 1-800-THE-SHACK (1-800-843-7422) (Pricing and availability may vary outside the contiguous 48 United States.) Typical MCD is 1.5. Typical wavelength is 697mm. Size is T-1-3/4 or 5mm. Red lens color. Viewing angle is 36?. 10mA (max). Typical Voltage is 2.0, with a maximum voltage of 12.0V. Comes as package of 1. http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=276-0 41 5mm Red LED $1.29 ?????Brand: RadioShack Catalog #: 276-041 ?????Model: 276-041 Availability On-line: In-stock In Store: Check availability Phone: In-stock 1-800-THE-SHACK (1-800-843-7422) (Pricing and availability may vary outside the contiguous 48 United States.) Typical MCD is 10. Typical wavelength is 700mm. Size is T1 3/4 or 5mm. Red lens color. Viewing angle is 30?. Current is 28mA (max). Typical Voltage is 2.25, with a maximum voltage of 2.6V. Comes as package of 2. 276-330 which is 1.8v does not seem to have web page available. Should I just put in the 12v one? And turn around if I get it wrong? or use jumpers to test it before soldering? Bradley From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 20 23:19:37 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:19:37 -0700 Subject: Replacing Old LEDs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510202119370320.03761D8F@10.0.0.252> RS's prices are pretty high for commodity LED's. You might just want to get the assortment of 20 for $2.59. Most of them are going to be red, anyway: 276-1622 You don't need the 12 volt model--it has an internal current-limiting resistor; the forward voltage on most of these isn't going to get much higher than about 2V at 20 ma. The following should work just fine: 276-026 276-041 Cheers, Chuck From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Oct 20 23:38:07 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:38:07 -0400 Subject: Software for one Osborne Vixen Message-ID: <20051021043805.PWCU5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 21:38 20/10/2005 +0200, you wrote: >Hello. I've received some time ago one Osborne Vixen. It's in working state. >I should like to obtain software for it, or even try with software for >previous versions of the Osborne portable family of computers. Are there >available in some place in the Internet disk images for it, or could someone >how own them send me a copy, please ? Off list to discuss the details, >please. Thanks. I have the Vixen system disks up on my site. Look in "Disks/Software images" near the end of the main page. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 21 00:34:33 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:34:33 -0700 Subject: Weird BiPolar ROM programmer In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051020204810.3d0f35fc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051020204810.3d0f35fc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200510202234330258.03BAB593@10.0.0.252> On 10/20/2005 at 8:48 PM Joe R. wrote: >I was out today and found an interesting looking box made by Aydin >Controls. It looks like a BiPolar PROM programmer. It has two 8 pin ZIP >sockets marked Read and two others marked Program along with several LED >diplays (TIL 311s! :-) and a lot of switches and pushbuttons on it. 8 pin or 16 pin ZIF sockets? A bipolar 8 pin PROM I'm not familiar with. However, a possibility might be something like the Xicor X2444 - a 256 bit serial-access EEPROM, which was contemporary with your box. Darned useful little chip too--TTL compatible--can be programmed with a bit of software driving a parallel port. I've got a bunch of them in my hellbox and like to use them where I need a little non-volatile information. Cheers, Chuck From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Thu Oct 20 08:31:38 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:31:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200510201341.j9KDfIAV077895@keith.ezwind.net> Bigger more impressive, often many more knobs and lights :) Separate preamp. receiver and amp allowed one to upgrade continuously as funds became available. In the late 60's and early 70's I built / upgraded my system with my tax check each year until my wife said enough was enough and forced be to get a new camera the year my son was born. Then it was lenses and darkroom stuff that absorbed all spare money until late in the 70's when computers SDk-80 and EVK-300 became the new black hole to throw time and money into :) First a processor and a teletype, then a second processor and a Beehive monitor (8008 based), than more memory, and tape controller for backup, followed by floppy drives, and ..... Get the picture Anyway "all in ones" were what our parents had, and that would not do we were the woodstock generation and wanted massive amounts of unusable power ! (until the parents went out, then took every watt we had to entertain the neighbors :) Bob ... On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:19:35 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: >OK, since there seem to be a fair amount of people into Tube audio, >or at least with a knowledge of it. Would someone care to explain >the following to someone that is used to an all in one unit such as a >Sony Receiver. What is the purpose of separate Amp and Pre-Amps. I >think I understand the whole phono pre-stage, but I've yet to find a >decent explanation of the rest, and I'm looking to switch to tubes >for playback of records (primarily Vinyl, but I'm also interested in >78's). > Zane >-- >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pdp11 at saccade.com Thu Oct 20 14:22:26 2005 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:22:26 -0700 Subject: Computer speedometers In-Reply-To: <200510191418490751.2F6FD4AD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20051020121848.01c6d460@mail.saccade.com> At 02:18 PM 10/19/2005 -0700, you wrote: >I was reminiscing to someone about an old GE mainframe with an analog meter >that registered Kops/sec. > >Has anyone done a similar thing with their vintage systems? In the late 70's I saw a PDP-11/45 that was wired up with an analog meter like that. As I understood it, it was an RC integrator hooked up to one of the Unibus lines. It was a great compliment to the RSTS spinning lights. Cheers, jp www.saccade.com From bernd at kopriva.de Fri Oct 21 02:08:35 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:08:35 +0200 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <0IOO00ERVHTY4KV1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051021062418.D054E39606@linux.local> What about the General Instrument CP1600 ? ... Ciao Bernd On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:47:49 -0400, Allison wrote: >> >>Subject: Re: Language for the ages >> From: "Chuck Guzis" >> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:41:26 -0700 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >>On 10/20/2005 at 2:51 PM der Mouse wrote: >> >>>>>>> PSHR R2 ; Push R2 onto the stack >>>>>>> MVII 10,R1 ; Move 10 to R1 >>>> Hmmm ... registers are numbered, and it's SRC,DEST format ... I'd >>>> guess ne of the later PDPs like a PDP-10 or PDP-11. >>> >>>Not the 11; I know that, and the opcode names and syntax are all wrong. >>>(On the 11, that'd be "mov r2,-(sp)" and "mov #10,r1" (DEC syntax) or >>>"mov r2,*-sp" and "mov $10,r1" (Unix syntax, if I've remembered it >>>right).) >> >>No prize yet. Hint: it's a microprocessor, not a mini (it's not the >>IM6100 or LSI 11). >> > >I'd either punt for 68k or 32000. > > >Allison > > From jhoger at pobox.com Fri Oct 21 02:22:49 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:22:49 -0700 Subject: tail recursion in modern Forths In-Reply-To: <20051020192239.1F0B173029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051020192239.1F0B173029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <1129879369.22816.114.camel@aragorn> On Thu, 2005-10-20 at 15:22 -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Also, modern languages tend to convert tail-recursion into loops. For > instanace, in Erlang [1]: I was referring more to the typical case of recursion where arbitrary amounts of data are being allocated on the stack (usually with no formal analysis by the programmer, because most programmers are not capable nor would time pressures permit most to be that serious). The other issue is sheer complexity in cases where things are moderately complex. In a 10 or 15 line self-contained function, and you know you aren't going to blow the stack, recursion may make sense. My experience is that those situations just don't come up in practice often. Mildly on-topic, Chuck Moore's current version of Forth (ColorForth) actually gets rid of looping constructs altogether and gives you tail recursion in its place. 4IM takes some cues from ColorForth, and is easier to read, from http://4im.atspace.com/model.html : : SPACES DUP IF BL EMIT 1- SPACES ; THEN DROP . 4IM compiles the sequence SPACES ; as a jump to SPACES when it sees ;. In this example this results in jumping back to the beginning of the definition. The rule for tail recursion is simple: If ; or . follows a word, a jump to this word is performed instead of calling it. This rule also works with EXECUTE and defered words. The difference between a jump and a call is that a call pushes a return address on the return stack when a jump does not. Without this feature, invoking SPACES with a large argument would result in a return stack overflow." Note that . is the word terminator in 4IM. Semicolon is EXIT. -- John. From bqt at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 21 05:59:39 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:59:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) In-Reply-To: <200510202021.j9KKKm2L072123@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510202021.j9KKKm2L072123@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: > Now that I have an apparently functioning PDP-8/A with 16K of core, and > (hopefully soon) a working RL02, I am wondering what operating system > would be appropriate. Currently I don't have any other input device > aside from the programmer's panel and the keyboard, so naturally I need > something that can be booted from an RL02... > > Any recommendations? Will software written for, say, an 8/E or 8/I run > on an 8/A without patching? > Could I run OS/8? TSS/8? Many years ago I used to have access to a TTY > timeshared to an 8/E running Edusystem 50 (TSS/8) and would like that > "feel" again... The only OSes I know of that supports the RL8A is OS/8 and RTS-8. For OS/8, one RL02 will look like five disks (it's huge! :-) ). Yes, as far as software is concerned, most everything written for an 8/I or 8/E will also run on an 8/A. I say most, since there are some incompatibilties that could bite you. But then you're playing with undocumented opcodes, or hardware that is optional. However, the 8/E and 8/A are *very* similar. In fact, some 8/A systems had the KK8E CPU in them. Things that are incompatible, as far as I can remember offhand right now: BSW instruction exists only on 8/E and 8/A. MQ register exists always on 8/E and 8/A, but only exists on 8/I if you have EAE. The 8/A cannot have an EAE. The EAE of the 8/E can run in two modes, where one is compatible with the EAE of the 8/I. If you execute a RAR RAL, you'll get different results depending on CPU. I don't remember exactly what the 8/I does, but the 8/E will load the AC with the PC for the high five bits, while the low seven will be fixed (can't remember the exact value). The 8/A will load the AC with the PC. But since all this stuff is things most programs don't do, it should not bite you. (I know that KERMIT-12 uses these tricks to decide what kind of CPU you actually are running on.) Since RTS-8 is a bit magic, in addition to being a bit hard to get perhaps, I'd say you should go with OS/8. RTS-8 uses OS/8 for the interactive work anyhow, so you won't get much extra fun out of it, unless you're really starting to write some special software. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 21 06:06:20 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:06:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) In-Reply-To: <200510202306.j9KN6QYu075034@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510202306.j9KN6QYu075034@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/21/05, charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: > > Currently I don't have any other input device aside from the programmer's panel > > and the keyboard, so naturally I need something that can be booted from an > > RL02... > > You may or may not have an RL boot PROM in your KM8AA, but if you > don't, you can always key in the RL bootstrap by hand. I'm not even sure they exist. Anyone have boot roms for RL? > > Could I run OS/8? TSS/8? Many years ago I used to have access to a TTY timeshared to an 8/E running Edusystem 50 (TSS/8) and would like that "feel" again... > > Dunno about TSS/8 on an RL (probably no driver for anything newer than > an RF08), but certainly OS/8. One caveat - there is a different > driver for the RL01 and for the RL02. I myself have never used an > RL02 on an 8/a. An expensive configuration for a DECmate I was an > RL02, so I'm sure OS/78 supports it, but you might have to cherry-pick > your OS/8 version to go with a larger disk. Actually, any version of OS/8 will work fine. What you need is the device driver. And yes, there are two different drivers, depending on RL01 or RL02. Um, actually there are four different device drivers, since each exists both for use as the system device, and not. I'm using an RL02 with my PDP8, and have for ages. A few things might need patches as well as having the device driver. RESORC and PIP comes to mind. They have tables of device sizes, which might not have the RL02 in there... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 21 06:13:36 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:13:36 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) In-Reply-To: <200510202306.j9KN6QYu075034@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510202306.j9KN6QYu075034@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, djg at pdp8.net wrote: > For multi user operating systems the only one that will run on your > hardware is Multos-8. The version that has been recovered doesn't seem > to operate well though. Huh? As I believe all copies of Multos actually comes from a distrubution I have, this is news to me. Multos works just fine on my PDP8 atleast. However, it won't be much for the original question on this thread, as Multos don't support the RL8A either... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 21 06:16:33 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:16:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions In-Reply-To: <200510202306.j9KN6QYu075034@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510202306.j9KN6QYu075034@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > >Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions > > From: David Betz > > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:26:02 -0400 > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >Thanks for your reply. I guess I'm okay with power even if I leave in > >the DHV11 as it seems my BA11-N has been upgraded to a H7861 power > > Unless you need the IO I'd pull it anyway. The system will run cooler > and I doubt you have need for the lines. DHV11 is a MUX and you need > the chassis kit to break out all the serial lines. Most OSs for PDP11 > don't use it (system build time option) and the DLV11J is easier to use > and program. The DHV11 cannot be used for a console either. I think I'll slightly disagree with you here. While all you say is essentially true, the DLV11 is a tremendour burden on the system compared to the DHV11. So if you actually want to run serial connections to a machine, keep the DHV11, and don't use the console more than absolutely neccesary. Big difference between DMA and interrupts you know... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 21 06:19:44 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:19:44 -0400 Subject: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) Message-ID: <0IOP007TRJEXEL00@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) > From: Johnny Billquist > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:06:20 +0200 (CEST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On 10/21/05, charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: >> > Currently I don't have any other input device aside from the programmer's panel >> > and the keyboard, so naturally I need something that can be booted from an >> > RL02... >> >> You may or may not have an RL boot PROM in your KM8AA, but if you >> don't, you can always key in the RL bootstrap by hand. > >I'm not even sure they exist. Anyone have boot roms for RL? There must be as DEC sold 8As and RL02s as multi user WPS systems (wps200 comes to mind). No idea what the underlying OS for WPS was. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 21 06:43:04 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:43:04 -0400 Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions Message-ID: <0IOP003EYKHSXQA0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions > From: Johnny Billquist > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:16:33 +0200 (CEST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > >> >Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions >> > From: David Betz >> > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:26:02 -0400 >> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> > >> >Thanks for your reply. I guess I'm okay with power even if I leave in >> >the DHV11 as it seems my BA11-N has been upgraded to a H7861 power >> >> Unless you need the IO I'd pull it anyway. The system will run cooler >> and I doubt you have need for the lines. DHV11 is a MUX and you need >> the chassis kit to break out all the serial lines. Most OSs for PDP11 >> don't use it (system build time option) and the DLV11J is easier to use >> and program. The DHV11 cannot be used for a console either. > >I think I'll slightly disagree with you here. >While all you say is essentially true, the DLV11 is a tremendour burden on >the system compared to the DHV11. So if you actually want to run serial >connections to a machine, keep the DHV11, and don't use the console more >than absolutely neccesary. > >Big difference between DMA and interrupts you know... Yes I do. However for a single user system the load is not an issue. If your running a timeshare system such as RSTS or RSX with more than one user then DHV11 sense as well. For most of my 11s four lines is the limit for what I can seem to keep busy. Figure a user terminal, LA100 Printer and serial line for modem or data line to another system. At the extreme I've run two terminals for OSs that support that but, I can only type on on at any instant. ;) Allison From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 21 07:22:31 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:22:31 -0400 Subject: OLD SCSI tower parts References: <0IOP003EYKHSXQA0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <002501c5d63a$1ce2f3d0$c1781941@game> I have an old SCSI tower made by CI Design CO , Irvine California that I am trying to find some rails for. I checked the company website but the part numbers do not come up in their search engine. The case is an 8 bay 5.25" slot variety (beiege floor standing not a rack type) that I have a few 3.5" SCA HDs in connected to an old Mac. Rails part number: 01-1039-B HD perforated plastic case bezel : 02-3060-01B 5.25" to 3.5" adapters: 01-1039-B Currently I have 5 sets and 3 open bays, looking for 3 more sets. I use this to dump video captures as a hobby so I don't want to spend too much on these. Anybody know where I can find them? From GFisher at tristonecapital.com Fri Oct 21 07:51:15 2005 From: GFisher at tristonecapital.com (Gary Fisher) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 06:51:15 -0600 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay Message-ID: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C38@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> Take a look at item #8707485844 http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8707485844&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 which ended on Thursday. It went for USD $7,877.11 for a supposedly serial number 3 unit, run up by bidders from Switzerland, the US and finally the UK. It had been heavily modified internally, with even a hard disk inside. My question to all is that was the unit more valuable (because of the low serial number) than a later unit that had all of the original MITS cards, motherboard and powersupply? My experience with car collectors (Corvettes), is that a unit in stock factory condition is more valuable than one that has been heavily modified. I suppose the buyer is going to restore the original MITS cards as it was first available, or is he going to keep it intact as it was sold to him? It would be interesting (to me) to know peoples collecting philosophies about that. Gary Fisher Tristone Capital Inc. This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Unless otherwise stated, opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author and are not endorsed by the author's employer. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Oct 21 08:10:50 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:10:50 -0400 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C38@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> References: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C38@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> Message-ID: <4358E8DA.90801@atarimuseum.com> wholey !@#$$% $7K !?!?!?!?! Great, now all the lunatics who've had something like this in their garage, basement or attic are going to run out to post them up with starting bids of $5,000 Better hope some idiotic news site or worse some news TV station doesn't make mention of this, or then it'll get really ugly. Curt Gary Fisher wrote: >Take a look at item #8707485844 >http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8707485844&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 >which ended on Thursday. It went for USD $7,877.11 for a supposedly serial number 3 unit, run up by bidders from Switzerland, the US and finally the UK. It had been heavily modified internally, with even a hard disk inside. >My question to all is that was the unit more valuable (because of the low serial number) than a later unit that had all of the original MITS cards, motherboard and powersupply? My experience with car collectors (Corvettes), is that a unit in stock factory condition is more valuable than one that has been heavily modified. >I suppose the buyer is going to restore the original MITS cards as it was first available, or is he going to keep it intact as it was sold to him? It would be interesting (to me) to know peoples collecting philosophies about that. > > >Gary Fisher >Tristone Capital Inc. >This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Unless otherwise stated, opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author and are not endorsed by the author's employer. > > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/146 - Release Date: 10/21/2005 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 21 08:51:14 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:51:14 +0100 Subject: OLD SCSI tower parts In-Reply-To: <002501c5d63a$1ce2f3d0$c1781941@game> References: <0IOP003EYKHSXQA0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <002501c5d63a$1ce2f3d0$c1781941@game> Message-ID: <4358F252.7060001@yahoo.co.uk> Teo Zenios wrote: > I have an old SCSI tower made by CI Design CO , Irvine California that I am > trying to find some rails for. I checked the company website but the part > numbers do not come up in their search engine. If you can get a photo maybe someone will recognise them? I've seen various rails in PCs and drive cabinets and the like over the years! cheers Jules From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Oct 21 09:05:38 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:05:38 -0400 Subject: OLD SCSI tower parts In-Reply-To: <4358F252.7060001@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0IOP003EYKHSXQA0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <002501c5d63a$1ce2f3d0$c1781941@game> <4358F252.7060001@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4358F5B2.1090304@atarimuseum.com> Unless they went with their own off the wall internal design (ala Compaq) then most used the standard black plastic rails (there are about 2-3 different variations) or the "C" bracket shaped metal rails, so if you can take a ruler and put one of the rails next to it and take some photo's, that would certainly help. Curt Jules Richardson wrote: > Teo Zenios wrote: > >> I have an old SCSI tower made by CI Design CO , Irvine California >> that I am >> trying to find some rails for. I checked the company website but the >> part >> numbers do not come up in their search engine. > > > If you can get a photo maybe someone will recognise them? I've seen > various rails in PCs and drive cabinets and the like over the years! > > cheers > > Jules > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/146 - Release Date: 10/21/2005 From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Oct 21 09:27:44 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:27:44 +0200 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C38@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> Message-ID: <43591700.32111.10A59295@localhost> Am 21 Oct 2005 6:51 meinte Gary Fisher: > Take a look at item #8707485844 which ended on Thursday. It went for USD $7,877.11 Nice catch > for a supposedly serial number 3 unit, Neat > It had been heavily modified internally, with even a hard disk inside. As with most S100 boxes where. > My question to all is that was the unit more valuable (because of the > low serial number) than a later unit that had all of the original MITS > cards, motherboard and powersupply? Short answer: the little '3' is a value in itself. > My experience with car collectors (Corvettes), is that a unit in stock > factory condition is more valuable than one that has been heavily modified. I always love to compare comouter collecting to car collecting. It fits in many ways. And a good comparsion for an Altair or IMSAI is after all the Ford Model T. Way to many have been build as that it is anywhere near extinction or rare at all, still, it's definitly an early collectable. Also quite a lot of T's have been modified to extend their life time, or fit various needs - after all, part of the success of the T was not only the relative cheap price, but also that you could remove parts (or all) of the cabin and use convert it to whatever suited your needs. way like it was with S100 boxes. Now, regarding your implication, yes, a nice like new car has it's value, but then again, a special sub serie might even catch a higher price when not shiny, and then there are modifications. Thing of a Shelby GT with added race trim. that would definitly catch a better price than a regular (already expensive) Shelby GT. Now, the above Altair could be compared again to a hot-rodded Model T. Lager engine (Z80) added high performace stuff (Hard Disk) and so on. Such a Car has a value in itself, and restoreing it to a factory like version should be considered vandalism. > I suppose the buyer is going to restore the original MITS cards as it was > first available, or is he going to keep it intact as it was sold to him? > It would be interesting (to me) to know peoples collecting philosophies > about that. Well, tough question. As for myself, I guess I would keep it the way it is right now. THe usage, the add ons _and_ the fact that it's ser#3 add together for a very unique exhibition piece. 'Restoring' it would take away the life and history. Don't get me wrong, this isn't a 'do not touch' thing, unlike some weired car collectors, who buy cars and let them rust on purpose, I would go ahead and restore (if needed) the Altair to its last working condition. Make it show room able, but don't take away it's history. If the original cards where available with the unit, I wouldn't put them back in, but rather use as part of a proposed displa, maybe mounted on a wall behind the unit. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 21 09:37:00 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:37:00 -0400 Subject: OLD SCSI tower parts References: <0IOP003EYKHSXQA0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <002501c5d63a$1ce2f3d0$c1781941@game> <4358F252.7060001@yahoo.co.uk> <4358F5B2.1090304@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <004c01c5d64c$e5fcdda0$c1781941@game> There rails are metal. I will try to get a picture of them later today after I get back from running around. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 10:05 AM Subject: Re: OLD SCSI tower parts > Unless they went with their own off the wall internal design (ala > Compaq) then most used the standard black plastic rails (there are about > 2-3 different variations) or the "C" bracket shaped metal rails, so if > you can take a ruler and put one of the rails next to it and take some > photo's, that would certainly help. > > > > Curt > > > > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > > >> I have an old SCSI tower made by CI Design CO , Irvine California > >> that I am > >> trying to find some rails for. I checked the company website but the > >> part > >> numbers do not come up in their search engine. > > > > > > If you can get a photo maybe someone will recognise them? I've seen > > various rails in PCs and drive cabinets and the like over the years! > > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/146 - Release Date: 10/21/2005 > From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Fri Oct 21 09:53:28 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C38@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> Message-ID: <20051021145329.54055.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> I find interesting the big dollars that IBM manuals are going for (>$900) http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=suetbandit&sort=10&page=1&rows=50&since=30&rdir=0 __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Oct 21 09:53:31 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:53:31 -0400 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <001101c5d5e5$c88ba830$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051021104236.03a71b00@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Michael Holley may have mentioned these words: >With all of this ragging on audio nut who spend obscene amounts of money >on wire, I decided to at a look. I don't know why we call them crazy, >they don't have 1975 computer running in the basement. See below. >The guy in the next office is in to high end audio. (Although he claims >that he is in the lower end of the people in his audio club.) I asked if >he had a power cord so I could take some pictures. He had a spare PS Audio >xStream Statement Power Cable, the 2 meter version lists for $550. $550 *spare* power cables? Where can I go to get *his* job... If I pissed away a truck payment on a power cable, my wife would (rightfully so) kill me. :-O >I took it home and hooked it up to my new custom case computer which also >cost me about $550. It is a modern 3 GHz Pentium that looks like a 1975 >SWTPC 6800. >http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_F/MP_F.htm#NewCover So how much faster did your computer go, and/or how much better did it sound with that new power cable? What would $550 *actually get you*??? Perspiring minds wanna know! [[ It also begs the question: What good is a 6 gauge power cord gonna get ya when it's fed by 12 gauge mains? ]] BTW, *very* nice job on the computer. ;-) When my 60-80 hour weeks slow down again, I'm finally hoping for a "CoCo into an AT case" conversion. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 21 09:58:55 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:58:55 -0400 Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions References: <0IOP003EYKHSXQA0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <17241.559.670666.609633@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: >> Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions >> From: Johnny Billquist Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 >> 13:16:33 +0200 (CEST) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> I think I'll slightly disagree with you here. While all you say >> is essentially true, the DLV11 is a tremendour burden on the >> system compared to the DHV11. So if you actually want to run >> serial connections to a machine, keep the DHV11, and don't use the >> console more than absolutely neccesary. >> >> Big difference between DMA and interrupts you know... Allison> Yes I do. However for a single user system the load is not Allison> an issue. If your running a timeshare system such as RSTS Allison> or RSX with more than one user then DHV11 sense as well. Not true. 9600 baud is 960 interrupts per second, on a character I/O device. That's a big number for a PDP-11. Output will be significantly less of a burden with a DH type output controller than with other types -- even for just one active terminal. Allison> For most of my 11s four lines is the limit for what I can Allison> seem to keep busy. Figure a user terminal, LA100 Printer Allison> and serial line for modem or data line to another system. At Allison> the extreme I've run two terminals for OSs that support that Allison> but, I can only type on on at any instant. ;) Sure, if you're mostly doing editing, then the CPU burden of high speed output may not be obvious. If you had an LN03 or similar printer, you might see it more easily. An LA100, of course, isn't much of a problem because it is quite slow. paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 21 10:57:22 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:57:22 -0400 Subject: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions Message-ID: <0IOP006M0W9LG5P0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions > From: Paul Koning > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:58:55 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Allison> Yes I do. However for a single user system the load is not > Allison> an issue. If your running a timeshare system such as RSTS > Allison> or RSX with more than one user then DHV11 sense as well. > >Not true. 9600 baud is 960 interrupts per second, on a character I/O >device. That's a big number for a PDP-11. Output will be >significantly less of a burden with a DH type output controller than >with other types -- even for just one active terminal. Depends somewhat on the OS. It dont know about you but most people can't type much faster than 100WPM (less than 10 chars sec). For RT11 it's mostly unimportant. For unix (the most sensitive to interrupt loading you _may_ care as a single user). > Allison> For most of my 11s four lines is the limit for what I can > Allison> seem to keep busy. Figure a user terminal, LA100 Printer > Allison> and serial line for modem or data line to another system. At > Allison> the extreme I've run two terminals for OSs that support that > Allison> but, I can only type on on at any instant. ;) > >Sure, if you're mostly doing editing, then the CPU burden of high >speed output may not be obvious. If you had an LN03 or similar >printer, you might see it more easily. An LA100, of course, isn't >much of a problem because it is quite slow. Actually printers are a bursty load (fill the buffer and go away) and I've found that in practice the faster you fill the buffer the better (high line rates or use a parallel interface). Actually try this config. 11/23B 256kW ram RL02 RX02 x2 DLV11j terminal lines at 9600 DUV11 running DDCMP (DECnet phaseIII at 19.2k) LPV11 (modifiedto match dataproducts interface) with LN01/LN01S 12ppm printer. Later the LN01S was replaced with a DLV11 (same address) and LN03. RSTS (later RSX) 3 users Typical task load was BASIC (modeling program for reliability), calc, Text editing (word-11) and edit and a cardfile database written in BASIC. Also we had preLAT software for the 11 to take local printing from the VAX. Performance was good enough that we used that over the VAX (line lengths limited us to 2400baud in our part of the mill). That saved the VAX for email via the DUV link or direct. Later the DLV11j was replaced with a DHV and there was no noticeable performace improvement. It was a strange config but it helped us develop, sometimes test and support the up and comming printing products. We later moved to a VAX750 and found it not much faster as a user perception. One of the strong points of the -11 is it's interrupt performance compared to a lot of other machines. Not to say there wasn't a point where the loading wasn't noticable just took a bit to get there. The users noticed the modeling program the most as it was heavy on the calculations, more ram and an 11/73 would have helped. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 21 11:46:01 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:46:01 -0700 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <20051021062418.D054E39606@linux.local> References: <20051021062418.D054E39606@linux.local> Message-ID: <200510210946010740.06217675@10.0.0.252> On 10/21/2005 at 9:08 AM Bernd Kopriva wrote: >What about the General Instrument CP1600 ? ... Yup, you got it too--Sridhar got it first, though. One of the lesser-known early 16-bit MPUs (outside of the gaming community) that had a great instruction set, but lousy implementation and marketing. It'd be kind of interesting to compile a quiz of snippets of assembly from a dozen or so MPUs and see how well we do. No cheating allowed. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 21 11:59:39 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:59:39 -0700 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C38@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> References: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C38@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> Message-ID: <200510210959390445.062DF09F@10.0.0.252> A confession. I'm not a collector. I don't understand collectors, particularly the exhaustive ones. You see this sort of thing a lot in musical instruments. I know an attorney for Micron who has warehouse space for his tuba collection (which numbers in the hundreds). He can't possibly play them all. But then, people collect Beanie Babies and I haven't the faintest idea of what they're good for. It's getting tempting to run my own 8800 up the eBay flagpole to see who salutes. It's been sitting on a shelf in the garage since about 1978, when I migrated to an Integrand Systems box. Still have both, mostly because I've been too lazy to do anything about them. Speaking of old stuff, when looking for something else, I ran across the serial and RAM cards for the SWTP TV Typewriter--are they worth anything or are they better used as landfill material? Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Oct 21 12:11:35 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:11:35 -0700 Subject: Big dollars paid for -> manuals going for a lot In-Reply-To: <20051021145329.54055.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051021145329.54055.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43592147.1000903@msm.umr.edu> steve wrote: >I find int > I got zapped by this dk ahole on a manual I needed, and would have gladly scanned and put in the bitsavers collection. If dk is on here and doing that, thank you, if not, shame on whoever it is if they don't Please dont reignite the earlier thread on this bidder, there was one in the recent past that can be refered to rather than rehashed. Jim From news at computercollector.com Fri Oct 21 12:19:04 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:19:04 -0400 Subject: Big dollars paid for -> manuals going for a lot In-Reply-To: <43592147.1000903@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <003801c5d663$8a4c26c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> >>> Please dont reignite the earlier thread on this bidder, there was one in the recent past that can be refered to rather than rehashed. Agreed! But we might as well call him by his name, Dennis Komisky, and not just DK. Unless we're putting an "ic" in the middle. :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim stephens Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 1:12 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Big dollars paid for -> manuals going for a lot steve wrote: >I find int > I got zapped by this dk ahole on a manual I needed, and would have gladly scanned and put in the bitsavers collection. If dk is on here and doing that, thank you, if not, shame on whoever it is if they don't Please dont reignite the earlier thread on this bidder, there was one in the recent past that can be refered to rather than rehashed. Jim From vrs at msn.com Fri Oct 21 12:23:41 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:23:41 -0700 Subject: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) References: <200510202306.j9KN6QYu075034@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > You may or may not have an RL boot PROM in your KM8AA, but if you > > don't, you can always key in the RL bootstrap by hand. > > I'm not even sure they exist. Anyone have boot roms for RL? Yes. Check you M8317 for ROMs 465A2 and 469A2. I was under the impression that these were fairly common, actually. Vince From GFisher at tristonecapital.com Fri Oct 21 12:56:49 2005 From: GFisher at tristonecapital.com (Gary Fisher) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:56:49 -0600 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay Message-ID: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD7760107434C@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> Hans, You make excellent points! I'd do the same thing as I'd be very interested in seeing what was on that hard drive and actually running the machine in it's final re-incarnation. But maybe I would put the new cards in an later serial number box for operating (like a nice Star Trek game or Supercalc) and put other original cards, PS, and motherboard in the serial number 3 case. But I only have one already later model modded 8800 and didn't have nine grand Canadian either! (Now if it was an IMSAI, that would be another story....except for the nine grand!) ---- EDITED ORIGINAL MESSAGE BELOW----- >From: "Hans Franke" >Subject: Re: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Message-ID: <43591700.32111.10A59295 at localhost> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >Now, regarding your implication, yes, a nice like new car has it's value, >but then again, a special sub serie might even catch a higher price when >not shiny, and then there are modifications. Thing of a Shelby GT with >added race trim. that would definitly catch a better price than a regular >(already expensive) Shelby GT. > >Now, the above Altair could be compared again to a hot-rodded Model T. >Lager engine (Z80) added high performace stuff (Hard Disk) and so on. >Such a Car has a value in itself, and restoreing it to a factory like >version should be considered vandalism. > >> I suppose the buyer is going to restore the original MITS cards as it was >> first available, or is he going to keep it intact as it was sold to him? >> It would be interesting (to me) to know peoples collecting philosophies >> about that. > >Well, tough question. As for myself, I guess I would keep it the way >it is right now. THe usage, the add ons _and_ the fact that it's ser#3 >add together for a very unique exhibition piece. 'Restoring' it would >take away the life and history. > >Don't get me wrong, this isn't a 'do not touch' thing, unlike some >weired car collectors, who buy cars and let them rust on purpose, I >would go ahead and restore (if needed) the Altair to its last working >condition. Make it show room able, but don't take away it's history. > >If the original cards where available with the unit, I wouldn't put >them back in, but rather use as part of a proposed displa, maybe >mounted on a wall behind the unit. > >Gruss >H. >-- >VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen >http://www.vcfe.org/ Gary Fisher Tristone Capital Inc. This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Unless otherwise stated, opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author and are not endorsed by the author's employer. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 21 13:02:11 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:02:11 -0600 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <200510210946010740.06217675@10.0.0.252> References: <20051021062418.D054E39606@linux.local> <200510210946010740.06217675@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43592D23.8050706@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >Yup, you got it too--Sridhar got it first, though. One of the >lesser-known early 16-bit MPUs (outside of the gaming community) that had a >great instruction set, but lousy implementation and marketing. > > > That is a new computer for me. I don't see any information on it on Bitsavers or the web. Anybody care to post more information? >It'd be kind of interesting to compile a quiz of snippets of assembly from >a dozen or so MPUs and see how well we do. No cheating allowed. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > Also a good use for AOL disks ... kenetic Art http://www.idcomm.com/personal/ottosen/ From GFisher at tristonecapital.com Fri Oct 21 13:08:26 2005 From: GFisher at tristonecapital.com (Gary Fisher) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:08:26 -0600 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay Message-ID: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C39@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> Steve Wrote: >Message: 12 >Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:53:28 -0700 (PDT) >From: steve >Subject: Re: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Message-ID: <20051021145329.54055.qmail at web51610.mail.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > >I find interesting the big dollars that IBM manuals >are going for (>$900) > >http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=suetbandit&sort=10&page=1&rows=50&since=30&rdir=0 I wonder who dkdkk is? He bought almost all of the IBM stuff (modules and manuals) and plunked down over 16,800 US$. He must be re-selling to the government Gary Fisher Tristone Capital Inc. This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Unless otherwise stated, opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author and are not endorsed by the author's employer. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 13:29:02 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:29:02 -0400 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <200510210959390445.062DF09F@10.0.0.252> References: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C38@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> <200510210959390445.062DF09F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4359336E.2080607@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > A confession. I'm not a collector. I don't understand collectors, > particularly the exhaustive ones. You see this sort of thing a lot in > musical instruments. I know an attorney for Micron who has warehouse space > for his tuba collection (which numbers in the hundreds). He can't possibly > play them all. I'm a collector, but I use everything I collect. Sometimes it takes me a long while to get around to getting something running. > But then, people collect Beanie Babies and I haven't the faintest idea of > what they're good for. For throwing at people, of course. 8;-) Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 13:30:20 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:30:20 -0400 Subject: Big dollars paid for -> manuals going for a lot In-Reply-To: <003801c5d663$8a4c26c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> References: <003801c5d663$8a4c26c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <435933BC.8060301@gmail.com> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >>>>Please dont reignite the earlier thread on this bidder, there was one in > > the recent past that can be refered to rather than rehashed. > > Agreed! But we might as well call him by his name, Dennis Komisky, and not > just DK. > > Unless we're putting an "ic" in the middle. :) Wouldn't that be a waste of an IC? 8-) Peace... Sridhar From whdawson at nidhog.net Fri Oct 21 13:42:12 2005 From: whdawson at nidhog.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:42:12 -0400 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <200510210959390445.062DF09F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: Chuck, You wrote: > Speaking of old stuff, when looking for something else, I ran across the > serial and RAM cards for the SWTP TV Typewriter--are they worth > anything or > are they better used as landfill material? I'd be more than willing to give them a good home. I can use them as spares for my TV Typewriter. Regards, Bill http://www.swtpc.com From gtoal at gtoal.com Fri Oct 21 13:44:01 2005 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:44:01 -0500 Subject: Xenix on the Acorn 32016 Message-ID: <435936F1.mail5O5117SPQ@gtoal.com> An update to the comments of last week: I retrieved my source listing of the linker for Panos last night, and buried in the middle of it was a commented-out section for handling object files from Xenix-32000. So I guess at some point Acorn was indeed looking at Xenix for that platform. I do sort of have a vague recollection of some involvement with Logica. I suspect this was one of those one-man projects where the only Acorn person involved was the manager. Maybe Dave Lamkin, or his boss whose name escapes me for now. (Mike someone?) By the way the Panos linker is 3/4in thick fanfold and quite a bit to scan. I guess I'll do it sometime but it's not a priority; I've been having much more fun recently scanning Edinburgh University documents detailing the operation of both the PDP9/15 systems, and the Interdata 74's. In recent weeks I've scanned the sources of an operating system for the Interdatas ("Legos") and a BIOS for an ICL 7502 remote job entry terminal which Edinburgh University managed to turn into a serviceable computer. Also the documentation for the High Level Assembler used on both these systems. (We already had the source of the assemblers, just no docs or predef files.) The Edinburgh collection is getting quite impressive. We also have recovered locally written operating systems for the PDP9 and PDP15, two O/Ses for PDP11s, Perkin Elmer 32bit, 68000s and of course the big one, EMAS for ICL29XX and IBM mainframe architectures of various flavours. ( http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/ ) Graham From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Oct 21 13:45:34 2005 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:45:34 -0500 Subject: OT: Re: audio insanity In-Reply-To: <200510211700.j9LH04hV085467@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510211700.j9LH04hV085467@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 10/21/05, Roger wrote: >What would $550 *actually get you*??? Perspiring minds wanna know! I assume it *very very cleanly* conducts the noise from your power outlet to your amplifier. Ya know the face I'd like to see? Take somebody that just bought one of those cables outside his house, point up at the power line coming to his house, then whip out an AM portable, scan down the spectrum, and let him know that *all of that* was hitting his socket, and being transmitted with extreme fidelity across his $550 power cable to his power supply. That's the face I'd like to see. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Oct 21 13:24:57 2005 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:24:57 -0500 Subject: Fan Direction (was: Re: PC floppy cable twists...) In-Reply-To: <200510211109.j9LB92Tg082454@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510211109.j9LB92Tg082454@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 6:09 -0500 10/21/05, Allison wrote: >.... All of my systems >cooling and air flow get attention even if it requires some card stock >and tape duct work. Fans blow in and filters keep cat hair and >other deutrius from getting in those places where it's going to do bad >things. I find that tends to keep the inside of my PCs clean too. I >turn the fan around and add a filter. Beats having a hairball clogging >the cpu fan and crashing the system. Although this in general is a good idea, it doesn't always work. NeXT cubes were designed with the fan exhausting air, so the crapola sucked in through the optical drive slot wiped out the optical drive before long. NeXT eventually approved the procedure to mechanically turn the fan around (do *NOT* simply reverse the connector). Problem is the designers actually did do _some_ thinking. On its way out the fan in the original configuration, the air went over the logic board(s) first, then the power supply and drives last. Reverse the fan, it's now hot air hitting the logic board. On my system, this caused the SCSI controller to fail occasionally. Solution in my case was to put the fan back to its original configuration, then tape over the floppy and optical cut-outs on the front of the case. (N.B. my system may be unique in that the floppy is mounted with a custom mount to an optical-sized cutout, with no attempt to seal well. It may be that either taping or reversing the fan would have solved the problem.) -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 21 13:52:05 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:52:05 -0400 Subject: Fan Direction (was: Re: PC floppy cable twists...) References: <200510211109.j9LB92Tg082454@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <17241.14549.563224.359670@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Mark" == Mark Tapley writes: Mark> .... Problem is the designers actually did Mark> do _some_ thinking. On its way out the fan in the original Mark> configuration, the air went over the logic board(s) first, then Mark> the power supply and drives last. Reverse the fan, it's now hot Mark> air hitting the logic board. On my system, this caused the SCSI Mark> controller to fail occasionally. Interesting. Drives first is normal in storage arrays because drives are more sensitive to high temperature than logic. It's quite strange for a logic device to fail as you described; it suggests bad thermal design or a SCSI controller defect (possibly design, possibly that specific unit). paul From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 13:53:11 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:53:11 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: audio insanity In-Reply-To: References: <200510211700.j9LH04hV085467@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43593917.3000409@gmail.com> Mark Tapley wrote: > At 12:00 -0500 10/21/05, Roger wrote: > >> What would $550 *actually get you*??? Perspiring minds wanna know! > > > I assume it *very very cleanly* conducts the noise from your power > outlet to your amplifier. > > Ya know the face I'd like to see? > > Take somebody that just bought one of those cables outside his house, > point up at the power line coming to his house, then whip out an AM > portable, scan down the spectrum, and let him know that *all of that* > was hitting his socket, and being transmitted with extreme fidelity > across his $550 power cable to his power supply. > > That's the face I'd like to see. Is there any place where it would make sense to use giant power cables on an audio system? How about if the stereo is located in a Faraday Cage running on a diesel generator producing very clean power? FWIW, I tend to use computer power cords ($1 per) for all my stereo equipment. Peace... Sridhar From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 13:59:23 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:59:23 +0100 Subject: 480z floppy lead Message-ID: <26c11a640510211159i65dbeeedv@mail.gmail.com> I checked back in the archives and could only find discussions, does anyone know the pin-outs of the external floppy drive. Dan From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 21 14:10:20 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:10:20 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: audio insanity References: <200510211700.j9LH04hV085467@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43593917.3000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <17241.15644.41573.475588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: Sridhar> Is there any place where it would make sense to use giant Sridhar> power cables on an audio system? How about if the stereo is Sridhar> located in a Faraday Cage running on a diesel generator Sridhar> producing very clean power? No. For one thing, a thin cable is probably doing more filtering than a thick one. And the power supply is heavily regulated in any case, which is why the dirt coming in from the power company doesn't come out the speakers. It's 100% pure snake oil. paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 21 14:06:36 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:06:36 +0100 Subject: Xenix on the Acorn 32016 In-Reply-To: <435936F1.mail5O5117SPQ@gtoal.com> References: <435936F1.mail5O5117SPQ@gtoal.com> Message-ID: <43593C3C.7080706@yahoo.co.uk> Graham Toal wrote: > An update to the comments of last week: I retrieved my source listing of > the linker for Panos last night, and buried in the middle of it was a > commented-out section for handling object files from Xenix-32000. Now that's interesting. Having seen some of Acorn's internal source and the way they often worked, it seemed there was a lot of "just go ahead and do it" philosophy going on. Maybe someone mentioned 32000 Xenix in passing and then some other programmer took it upon themselves to add support in to the linker :) > So I guess at some point Acorn was indeed looking at Xenix for that > platform. I do sort of have a vague recollection of some involvement > with Logica. I need to dig out some of my old Acorn emails when I get back to the UK. I've got quite a few relating to Unix development, but I think they're all knocking around of ideas prior to developing RISCiX rather than any earlier Unix developments for the 32k line. > By the way the Panos linker is 3/4in thick fanfold and quite a bit to > scan. I guess I'll do it sometime but it's not a priority; Again, I'll check that I don't have it on disk when I get home in a month... > The Edinburgh collection is getting quite impressive. We also have > recovered locally written operating systems for the PDP9 and PDP15, > two O/Ses for PDP11s, Perkin Elmer 32bit, 68000s and of course the > big one, EMAS for ICL29XX That last one caught my eye, given that we have an ICL 2966 which we'd like to (try to) get operational one day (no mean feat, given how dismantled, rusty, and spread all to hell and back across lots of storerooms it is at the moment!). Seems like there are "lots" (as in more than one :) of people/places who know about the 1900 line, but the 29xx's seem to be largely forgotten. Of course a complete 1900 would be nice, but I doubt there are any left anywhere... cheers Jules From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Oct 21 14:08:59 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:08:59 -0400 (edt) Subject: OT: Re: audio insanity In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Oct 21, 05 01:45:34 pm Message-ID: <200510211908.PAA07824@wordstock.com> And thusly Mark Tapley spake: > > Take somebody that just bought one of those cables outside his house, > point up at the power line coming to his house, then whip out an AM > portable, scan down the spectrum, and let him know that *all of that* > was hitting his socket, and being transmitted with extreme fidelity > across his $550 power cable to his power supply. > > That's the face I'd like to see. But then he would show you his power line conditioner and separate cleaner that is removing all that interference... Cheers, Bryan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 21 14:10:05 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:10:05 +0100 Subject: 480z floppy lead In-Reply-To: <26c11a640510211159i65dbeeedv@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640510211159i65dbeeedv@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43593D0D.4030709@yahoo.co.uk> Dan Williams wrote: > I checked back in the archives and could only find discussions, does > anyone know the pin-outs of the external floppy drive. > off the top of my head, no. But the 480Z side should be in the 480Z Information File on Paul Williams' site, and the disk drive side just uses the 380Z intelligent disk controller (or was it advanced disk controller, I forget) - details of which should be on the same site. I imagine it's exactly the same as the 480Z connector, but assuming that probably isn't such a good idea. so the info's there if nobody knows the exact answer, it'll just take a bit of sifting though! cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 14:43:31 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:43:31 +1300 Subject: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) In-Reply-To: References: <200510202306.j9KN6QYu075034@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 10/22/05, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > You may or may not have an RL boot PROM in your KM8AA, but if you > > don't, you can always key in the RL bootstrap by hand. > > I'm not even sure they exist. Anyone have boot roms for RL? I do. > I'm using an RL02 with my PDP8, and have for ages. Good to know. I was aware that there was a driver, but back when I was using my PDP-8 everyday (1986-1988), I couldn't afford an RL02. I did pony up $600 for an RL8A, but RL02 drives at the time were over $1000. ISTR paying about $150 for an RL01. -ethan From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 21 14:45:32 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:45:32 -0400 Subject: Replacing Old LEDs (Bradley Slavik) In-Reply-To: <200510211700.j9LH0PrF085496@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200510211945.j9LJjSYG000251@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> LEDs are very generic components. All of the ones that you are talking about are almost totally interchangeable, except for the 12 volt one (which is probably a low voltage one with a built-in resistor .... no LED truly operates off 12 volts). An LED is still a diode. In the wrong direction, it doesn't conduct, and it also doesn't give off any light, but no harm is done. In the "forward" direction, usually run from a 5 volt supply, it would burn out (basically it would be a short-circuit) except that it will invariably have a current limiting resistor in series with it. Since the actual voltage across the LED is .7 to about 3 volts or so, depending on the LED, and the supply voltage is almost invariably 5 volts, the current limiting resistor determines the current drawn and the power consumed (and, as a consequence, how bright the LED is). Some LEDs are significantly more efficient (give off more light per milliwatt used) than others, the specs will tell you that, but again, in most applications you don't care about the power consumption (milliwatts), and the brightness is subjective. Excluding odd LEDs (like your 12 volt model which, again, is probably a low-voltage LED with the resistor built-in probably for automotive use), any LED will work, although different ones will vary in brightness and power consumption (if power consumption matters .... usually it does not). If you get it backwards, it won't light, but no harm will be done. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 21 14:51:57 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:51:57 -0700 Subject: Language for the ages In-Reply-To: <43592D23.8050706@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20051021062418.D054E39606@linux.local> <200510210946010740.06217675@10.0.0.252> <43592D23.8050706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200510211251570916.06CBAEDE@10.0.0.252> On 10/21/2005 at 12:02 PM woodelf wrote: >Anybody care to post more information? Well, Lowell Turner has a bit of incomplete information on the general architecture: http://www.nyx.net/~lturner/public_html/CP1600.html And here's a primer on the instruction set: http://spatula-city.org/~im14u2c/intv/intro_to_cp1600.txt I have the original reference manual, BTW. When you get into the 10-bit nonsense, you'll see what I mean by an "almost great" implementation. The interesting thing is that the intelligent peripheral chip that was part of this set became the Microchip PIC... Cheers, Chuck From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 21 15:28:58 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:28:58 Subject: Weird BiPolar ROM programmer In-Reply-To: <200510202234330258.03BAB593@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20051020204810.3d0f35fc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20051020204810.3d0f35fc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051021152858.3e2f9c7e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:34 PM 10/20/05 -0700, you wrote: >On 10/20/2005 at 8:48 PM Joe R. wrote: > >>I was out today and found an interesting looking box made by Aydin >>Controls. It looks like a BiPolar PROM programmer. It has two 8 pin ZIP >>sockets marked Read and two others marked Program along with several LED >>diplays (TIL 311s! :-) and a lot of switches and pushbuttons on it. > >8 pin or 16 pin ZIF sockets? 16 pin ZIF socket. Brain Fart. Sorry. Joe A bipolar 8 pin PROM I'm not familiar with. >However, a possibility might be something like the Xicor X2444 - a 256 bit >serial-access EEPROM, which was contemporary with your box. Darned useful >little chip too--TTL compatible--can be programmed with a bit of software >driving a parallel port. I've got a bunch of them in my hellbox and like >to use them where I need a little non-volatile information. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 21 15:50:12 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:50:12 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051021155012.3df71070@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:51 AM 10/21/05 -0600, you wrote: >Take a look at item #8707485844 >http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8707485844&rd=1&sspagenam e=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 >which ended on Thursday. It went for USD $7,877.11 Isn't that amazing? JC Wren had one with a load of other classic computers and the high bid was only about $2100! for a supposedly serial number 3 unit, run up by bidders from Switzerland, the US and finally the UK. It had been heavily modified internally, with even a hard disk inside. >My question to all is that was the unit more valuable (because of the low serial number) than a later unit that had all of the original MITS cards, motherboard and powersupply? My experience with car collectors (Corvettes), is that a unit in stock factory condition is more valuable than one that has been heavily modified. IMO ALL of the Altairs have been modified since they were sold only as kits. Yes you COULD buy assembled one but MITs still took a kit and just assembled it for you. To my knowledge none of them were build on an assembly line. Even MITs changed parts and revised the boards frequently so even the basic kits weren't all the same. On top of that, the user had to buy or build their own memory and I/O cards and the like (everything except the CPU card and chassis) so it's virtually certain that no two Altairs were identical even when they were new. And some mods such as a bus terminator were mandatory in order to make them work. Then considering that these were leading edge technology at the time and that they were constantly being hacked on and upgraded by their owners I would expect all of the surviving ones to be very different. I expect that 3rd party cards vs original MITs cards would detract from their value but not to the extend that 3rd party mods would to a collector's car. I suppose a better comparision would be a 1930s Duesenburg or some other car that were ALL build to order and no two were the same. Joe ('70 Hemi SuperBird, '70 440 6-pak Dodge Challanger RT Convertible, '70 Plymouth Baracuda, '68 Dodge Charger ....) >I suppose the buyer is going to restore the original MITS cards as it was first available, or is he going to keep it intact as it was sold to him? It would be interesting (to me) to know peoples collecting philosophies about that. > > >Gary Fisher >Tristone Capital Inc. >This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Unless otherwise stated, opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author and are not endorsed by the author's employer. > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 21 15:53:30 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:53:30 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20051021145329.54055.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: < <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C38@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051021155330.32d78574@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hey Sellam! Your friend Dennis Kominsky strikes again! :-) At 07:53 AM 10/21/05 -0700, you wrote: >I find interesting the big dollars that IBM manuals >are going for (>$900) > >http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=suetbandit&sor t=10&page=1&rows=50&since=30&rdir=0 > > > > >__________________________________ >Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. >http://farechase.yahoo.com > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 21 15:54:59 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:54:59 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <200510210959390445.062DF09F@10.0.0.252> References: < <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C38@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C38@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051021155459.33376a8e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:59 AM 10/21/05 -0700, you wrote: >A confession. I'm not a collector. I don't understand collectors, >particularly the exhaustive ones. You see this sort of thing a lot in >musical instruments. I know an attorney for Micron who has warehouse space >for his tuba collection (which numbers in the hundreds). He can't possibly >play them all. > >But then, people collect Beanie Babies and I haven't the faintest idea of >what they're good for. > >It's getting tempting to run my own 8800 up the eBay flagpole to see who >salutes. It's been sitting on a shelf in the garage since about 1978, when >I migrated to an Integrand Systems box. Still have both, mostly because >I've been too lazy to do anything about them. > >Speaking of old stuff, when looking for something else, I ran across the >serial and RAM cards for the SWTP TV Typewriter--are they worth anything or >are they better used as landfill material? Put them on E-bay and make up a good story to go with them and you'll probably make 100s of dollars! Joe > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > From spedraja at ono.com Fri Oct 21 15:34:10 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:34:10 +0200 Subject: Software for one Osborne Vixen References: <20051021043805.PWCU5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <005f01c5d67e$cb863200$1602a8c0@ACER> Thanks, Dave. I got it and it's working now :-) Regards Sergio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Dunfield" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 6:38 AM Subject: Re: Software for one Osborne Vixen > At 21:38 20/10/2005 +0200, you wrote: > >Hello. I've received some time ago one Osborne Vixen. It's in working state. > >I should like to obtain software for it, or even try with software for > >previous versions of the Osborne portable family of computers. Are there > >available in some place in the Internet disk images for it, or could someone > >how own them send me a copy, please ? Off list to discuss the details, > >please. Thanks. > > I have the Vixen system disks up on my site. > Look in "Disks/Software images" near the end of the main page. > > Dave > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 21 15:34:39 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:34:39 -0700 Subject: Fan Direction (was: Re: PC floppy cable twists...) In-Reply-To: References: <200510211109.j9LB92Tg082454@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200510211334390255.06F2C3CD@10.0.0.252> On 10/21/2005 at 1:24 PM Mark Tapley wrote: > Problem is the designers actually did do _some_ thinking. On >its way out the fan in the original configuration, the air went over >the logic board(s) first, then the power supply and drives last. >Reverse the fan, it's now hot air hitting the logic board. On my >system, this caused the SCSI controller to fail occasionally. I think the older HP Vectras were a good example of how to use a fan--use a big slow fan separate from the power supply with ducting (I'm sitting in front of such a system now--a 1GHz P3). The result is a machine so quiet that you're not aware that it's powered on. OTOH, the original IBM PC had a very loud AC powered fan that left no doubts--and most other manufacturers have followed suit, even with DC fans and those stupidly junky heat-sink mounted fans. I really miss the pre-Compaq HP. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 21 15:51:37 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:51:37 -0600 Subject: OT: Re: audio insanity In-Reply-To: <17241.15644.41573.475588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200510211700.j9LH04hV085467@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43593917.3000409@gmail.com> <17241.15644.41573.475588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <435954D9.6070507@jetnet.ab.ca> Paul Koning wrote: >No. For one thing, a thin cable is probably doing more filtering than >a thick one. And the power supply is heavily regulated in any case, >which is why the dirt coming in from the power company doesn't come >out the speakers. > > I suspect the the power supplies have the most snake oil. 90% of all the power supplies I have seen looking for a good valve amp schematic have heavy filtering but very little regulation. My 115 volt ac is about 123 volts out here. >It's 100% pure snake oil. > > paul > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 21 15:51:54 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:51:54 -0700 Subject: Weird BiPolar ROM programmer In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051021152858.3e2f9c7e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051020204810.3d0f35fc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20051020204810.3d0f35fc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20051021152858.3e2f9c7e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200510211351540495.07028F95@10.0.0.252> On 10/21/2005 at 3:28 PM Joe R. wrote: > 16 pin ZIF socket. Brain Fart. Sorry. Quite possibly a bipolar prom programmer then--perhaps 82S23-type. Unlike C/NMOS EPROMs, much easier to program. Very popular with the phone phreaks, as this device (or the 82S123 tristate version) is used to hold ESN/MIN information in older cellphones. Cheers, Chuck From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 21 16:08:35 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:08:35 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: audio insanity References: <200510211700.j9LH04hV085467@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43593917.3000409@gmail.com> <17241.15644.41573.475588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <435954D9.6070507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <17241.22739.458776.993092@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "woodelf" == woodelf writes: woodelf> I suspect the the power supplies have the most snake woodelf> oil. 90% of all the power supplies I have seen looking for a woodelf> good valve amp schematic have heavy filtering but very woodelf> little regulation. My 115 volt ac is about 123 volts out woodelf> here. That doesn't make the power supplies snake oily. Tubes are generally not picky about the supply voltage, so no regulation is needed for good performance. There are a few exceptions: precision oscillators, and traveling wave tubes. But your basic tetrode or pentode amp is quite uncritical; regulators would just be unnecessary bulk. paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 21 16:16:24 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:16:24 -0400 Subject: Fan Direction (was: Re: PC floppy cable twists...) Message-ID: <0IOQ009CRB18M0V0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Fan Direction (was: Re: PC floppy cable twists...) > From: Mark Tapley > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:24:57 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >At 6:09 -0500 10/21/05, Allison wrote: >>.... All of my systems >>cooling and air flow get attention even if it requires some card stock >>and tape duct work. Fans blow in and filters keep cat hair and >>other deutrius from getting in those places where it's going to do bad >>things. I find that tends to keep the inside of my PCs clean too. I >>turn the fan around and add a filter. Beats having a hairball clogging >>the cpu fan and crashing the system. > > > Although this in general is a good idea, it doesn't always >work. NeXT cubes were designed with the fan exhausting air, so the >crapola sucked in through the optical drive slot wiped out the >optical drive before long. NeXT eventually approved the procedure to >mechanically turn the fan around (do *NOT* simply reverse the >connector). That would be a bad thing. > Problem is the designers actually did do _some_ thinking. On >its way out the fan in the original configuration, the air went over >the logic board(s) first, then the power supply and drives last. >Reverse the fan, it's now hot air hitting the logic board. On my >system, this caused the SCSI controller to fail occasionally. > Solution in my case was to put the fan back to its original >configuration, then tape over the floppy and optical cut-outs on the >front of the case. (N.B. my system may be unique in that the floppy >is mounted with a custom mount to an optical-sized cutout, with no >attempt to seal well. It may be that either taping or reversing the >fan would have solved the problem.) >-- Before I did it there was some thought applied and a few changes like an added fan in a differnt location. In the end I was both pressurizing the case and insuring adaquate airflow over the hardware. In the case of most PCs the airflow pattern is at best bad and its difficult to make even small improvements. But some of the S100 cases the airflow was poor to non existant. In those trying to get a laminar airflow or even air to flow between the boards in a crowded case was hard to achive. The worst is any of the altairs, one look and you see why. Allison From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Fri Oct 21 16:26:42 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: audio insanity In-Reply-To: <43593917.3000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051021212642.67697.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Mark Tapley wrote: > Is there any place where it would make sense to use > giant power cables > on an audio system? How about if the stereo is > located in a Faraday > Cage running on a diesel generator producing very > clean power? > Hmm, how about battery power? I wonder why those audio guys just don't use a gang of car batteries to power their stereo. Can't get any cleaner then that. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 21 17:42:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:42:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replacing Old LEDs In-Reply-To: from "Bradley Slavik" at Oct 20, 5 10:26:58 pm Message-ID: > > I believe that all these LEDs are on ISA or EISA cards, circa 1987. > > Let me be more specific now that I have gone to radio shack. > > In 5mm red LEDs they have > > 12volt, 2.6v, 1.8v Ignore the 12V one (and a 5V one if they listed that). Those have built-in resistors or current source ICs and are not what you want at all. Rememebr an LED is a semiconductor diode and this had a V-I characteristing with a very steep slope (almost no change in voltage over a wide range of currents), so you can't connect a bare LED to a voltage supply. You would normally put a resistor in series with it. Msot common red LEDs have a Vf (forward voltage) of 1.8V. Higher voltage tend to be the modern low-current ones that you don't want. I'd get the 1.8V one and see what happens. Except for very speicalised aplications I've never really worried about the characteristics of the LEDs I am using. Just get a generic red LED and pick a reisstor to pass between 10 and 20 mA through it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 21 17:34:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:34:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: <20051020201007.235e4983.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Oct 20, 5 08:10:07 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:26:14 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Somebody earlier claimed that IBM didn't bother with termination on the > > disk drives in the PC family. > > > > I've just looked in the 'Hardware Maintenance and Service' manual for the > > PC/AT. This is the only HMS manual I have (I don't normally bother with > > boardswapper guides), > > I know you disagree with a 'boardswapping' culture deeply and do so > with great conviction, but it's important to understand that there has I haev many reasons for objecting to it, which basically fall into two groups. The first is the obvious one. It's wasteful. OK, I'll sometimes replace a module rather htan a part (e.g. I'll replace a trasnformer, even though I am quite capable of rewinding one, and would do so if a suitable replaceemnt was unavailable). But I find it totally ridiculous to replace a complete PCB because one cheap IC has failed. Ah, but you're going to say to me that finding out which IC has failed takes time, knowledge, and experience. I fully agree with this, which brings me to my second point. Board swapping, unless done after a lot of measurement and thought, is not necessarily going to solve the problem. There are 3 sub-problems. Firstly, a fault elsewhere in the machine could damage the new board. An obvious exaple of this is a PSU problem that blows up chips. Secondly, the new module mioght not be totally compatible with the old, you may have to make changes elsewhere (I've been bitten by this..). And thirdly, and most seriously, even if you find that replaceing a particular board seems to cure the problem, you may not have really cured it. A classic example of this is that you have 2 modules, A and B, with a signal going between them. The timing of A drifts and the system fails. You replace B, and by chance the new one has a looser spec. The machine works, but A continues to drift, and it fails again a few days/weeks later. OK, a new A now gets it going, but that would have worked with the original B, which in fact was never faulty. Seen it happen. So if you're going to swap boards, you have (IMHO) to make plenty of measurements anyway. And then you pretty much know which component has failed. It's probably less effort to just change that one component. > always been a hierarchy in computer servicing. Customer Engineers have > often only been trained to the level of identifying pulling and swapping A second rant of mine is about people who are trained to do a particlar job. Such people generally have no real knowledge of the device (or the subject in general) and are incapable of logical though. I remember one such idiot who wanted to replace every PCB in an expensive graphics display system, when 10 seconds with a voltmeter showed that the 5V PSU was sitting at 4V. He was escorted off the site by our system manager and told never to return, BTW. But I digress. > boards, which then are shipped to a facility where expert > troubleshooters do the component level testing and repair. > > I personally have worked in such a component-level board reworking > facility. There are often fabulously skillful troubleshooters working > at those benches. Often this repair function is carried out in the same > facility where production rework is accomplished. And it would be a > severe waste of expertise and skill for these people to be out driving > around to customer sites performing mundane tasks. Hmmm.. I know pletty of such knowedgable people who can't get a job in the electronics industry, either design or repair. Is this somehow less wasteful than having them doing field service work? > > Boardswapping has a place and is a legitimate part of the history of > computers going way, way back. It is how things were and are done, and I have never found 'that's the way things are done' to be a sufficient reason for carrying on doing them that way. > it's not something to look down on. Of course, when working on vintage > hardware where there is no longer a repair depot to ship the boards to, > it is obviously a different matter. Restoring and operating old > equipment is an artisan-type task. Indeed, and then it's a pity that proper serice docs don't exist. I have tried to remedy this for the HP desktop calculators, but it's a long job... > > It's important not to pretend, however, that the published 'board > swapping' service manuals are an abomination before nature. In many Oh don't get me started. The worst is the Torch XXX service manual. It contains nothing of any use at all. It contains a block diagram that's fundamentally incorrect (it's the video memory, not the main memory, that's shared between the main processor and the service processor), it contains a 'glossary' that would insult a 2-year-old. HPO desktop calculator service manuals are curious. They have some useless stuff in them (a typical repair procedure for the HP98x0 machines is to swap out the 4 processor boards, if the machine then works to put the original ones back one at a time until it stops working). But they also have some odd bits of information that would appear to be useless to a boardswapper, but are useful to us now. For example, the 9825 service manual, at least the version I've seen, contains almost no schematics (expected). You do get the PSU schematic, and you get the schematic of the printhead test fixture. That's the one part, of course, that's not part of the machine, so it couldn't be reverse-engineered from a real 9825. > cases the detailed manuals and docs never leave the repair depot, which > is a shame and a real loss for us today, but not a reflection of > technical ignorance. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 21 17:37:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:37:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <001101c5d5e5$c88ba830$0300a8c0@downstairs2> from "Michael Holley" at Oct 20, 5 07:18:38 pm Message-ID: > Here is my short review of the power cord > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_F/PS_Audio.htm > > I took it home and hooked it up to my new custom case computer which also > cost me about $550. It is a modern 3 GHz Pentium that looks like a 1975 > SWTPC 6800. Ah, but does it make the machine run any faster, or crash less often, or... [ :-) in case you're humour-impaired ] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 21 17:38:24 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:38:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? In-Reply-To: <9493AA95-B9AD-4DE7-82D1-688D5BA118CF@xlisper.mv.com> from "David Betz" at Oct 20, 5 10:38:02 pm Message-ID: > > I've made a bit of progress with my new 11/73 (got a prompt from > console ODT), but I found a problem. One of the power supply fans is > dead. Anyone know where I can get a replacement fan for the H7861 > power supply? I know DEC used some odd fans in some of their machines (e.g. the 35V 75Hz ones in the 11/44 cabinet), but is there anything particularly odd about this one? Most of the time you can find something that will replace them. -tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 21 18:40:54 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:40:54 -0400 Subject: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? Message-ID: <0IOQ00BECHQ006V1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:38:24 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> I've made a bit of progress with my new 11/73 (got a prompt from >> console ODT), but I found a problem. One of the power supply fans is >> dead. Anyone know where I can get a replacement fan for the H7861 >> power supply? > >I know DEC used some odd fans in some of their machines (e.g. the 35V >75Hz ones in the 11/44 cabinet), but is there anything particularly odd >about this one? Most of the time you can find something that will replace >them. > >-tony Dead plain nothing special. Allison From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 21 19:50:14 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 19:50:14 -0500 Subject: Message for Jay West References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F1053906E@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <072101c5d6a2$90c93a80$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Julian Wolfe wrote... > I've been trying to give Jay a link to my PDP11 board, but haven't heard > back from him. When I spoke to him in person, he asked I resend him the > link, and I have several times and haven't heard back so I figured my > mail was getting filtered. Anyway, sorry to spam the list with this, > but I couldn't think of any other way to get ahold of him. > > Jay, that address is http://pdpusers.dyndns.org - title is "PDP-11 User > Community" (as I'll be working to get more than just a message board up > on it soon) Several items: 1) You just emailed me 2 days ago. Please give me longer than 2 days to respond. I get a pretty large amount of email and generally have to prioritize when/if I can respond. I try my best. 2) I did respond to your previous emails. You have emailed me the link on 3 occasions. On every single occasion, I clicked on the link - and the link was dead. Perhaps this is because you're using dynamic dns, which is a really bad thing to try to host a service on. Since I could never get to your site via that URL, I just sent you emails back saying "Do you have a different URL". Apparently you don't :) 3) I did get your emails so they aren't being filtered on my end. Hopefully by me posting this to the list, you will get the email. Since I just went to the link and this time it's alive and working, I'll add it to the site you requested. Regards, Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 21 20:11:04 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:11:04 -0500 Subject: OT: Tube Audio References: Message-ID: <000801c5d6a5$7cbb3a40$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote.... >> God damn it. This isn't the fucking antique radio mailing list. Take it >> to a more appropriate list or take it off-list. I'm halfway willing to officially sanction all discussion of antique radios ;) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 21 20:26:56 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:26:56 -0500 Subject: lost all my phone numbers :\ References: <013201c5cfa0$feb46780$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <435832BC.8090701@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <002701c5d6a7$b10ba4e0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote... > Doesn't your phone sync to a PC? Yeah, but being an IT consultant, "Backup" is just a word I use to my customers. Jay From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 21 20:39:12 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:39:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: <000801c5d6a5$7cbb3a40$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: > I'm halfway willing to officially sanction all discussion of antique radios > ;) That half might get you punched in the nose. Actually, there are no good antique radio groups/lists - all are watered down. There is a good military radio list, however. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cswiger at widomaker.com Fri Oct 21 20:47:44 2005 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (Chuck Swiger) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:47:44 -0400 Subject: Character Generator ROM data Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20051021213654.028baf90@wilma.widomaker.com> Gang - Anybody know of readily available data for, say, 7x9 dot-matrix characters? I'm looking for a downloadable rom image for something like in old video cards to paint ascii characters on a display. For example, my Polymorphic Systems Video Terminal Interface (VTI) card uses an MCM6571A (or it could use a 6574) -BUT- I do not need exactly that font - any 7x9 data will work. Spent the past hour trying terms in google w/o anything usable turning up. ******* ***** * * * * * * * * * * * ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ***** * * --Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 21 20:50:58 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:50:58 -0400 Subject: OT: Tube Audio Message-ID: <0IOQ00EAHNQRIAH2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT: Tube Audio > From: William Donzelli > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:39:12 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> I'm halfway willing to officially sanction all discussion of antique radios >> ;) > >That half might get you punched in the nose. > >Actually, there are no good antique radio groups/lists - all are watered >down. There is a good military radio list, however. > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > That and we reaching the point where computers and radios that contain or are married to them are over 10 years old (some a whole lot older, think Pioneer). Allison From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 21 20:56:41 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:56:41 -0500 Subject: OT: Tube Audio References: Message-ID: <004501c5d6ab$d968e890$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> William wrote... > That half might get you punched in the nose. Whatever. If you (or Sellam) have a complaint, feel free to email me directly. Jay From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 21 21:28:17 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:28:17 -0400 Subject: Character Generator ROM data Message-ID: <0IOQ00188PGXSMY1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Character Generator ROM data > From: Chuck Swiger > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:47:44 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Gang - > > Anybody know of readily available data for, say, 7x9 dot-matrix characters? >I'm looking for a downloadable rom image for something like in old video >cards to >paint ascii characters on a display. > >For example, my Polymorphic Systems Video Terminal Interface (VTI) card uses >an MCM6571A (or it could use a 6574) -BUT- I do not need exactly that >font - any 7x9 data will work. Spent the past hour trying terms in >google w/o >anything usable turning up. Is simple. Find a pattern you like in row or colum scan and convert the bit pattern to a string of hex values and cook an Eprom/EEPROM. Myself I needed a while back a 7x9 that had decenders one of the M6571 series has that so I found that data sheet. They fit easily into a 2716 or similar. Hint where they go in rom is based on SxC IE: number of scan lines typically 11 or 12 for 7x9 fonts and the number of characters. For 7x9 CRT fonts (ROW scanned) the low 4 addresses lines are the row data and the next 7 (128 char font) are the character address. Nothing magic. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 21 21:32:48 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:32:48 -0400 Subject: Character Generator ROM data Message-ID: <0IOQ006GTPOHG5R2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Chuck, Did a quick Google on "character generator roms" and this was the third hit. http://www.atariarchives.org/cgp/Ch02_Sec04.php Hope it helps. Allison > >Subject: Character Generator ROM data > From: Chuck Swiger > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:47:44 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Gang - > > Anybody know of readily available data for, say, 7x9 dot-matrix characters? >I'm looking for a downloadable rom image for something like in old video >cards to >paint ascii characters on a display. > >For example, my Polymorphic Systems Video Terminal Interface (VTI) card uses >an MCM6571A (or it could use a 6574) -BUT- I do not need exactly that >font - any 7x9 data will work. Spent the past hour trying terms in >google w/o >anything usable turning up. > > >******* ***** * > * * * * > * * * * > * * ****** > * * * * > * * * * > * * * * > * * * * > * ***** * * > >--Chuck From cswiger at widomaker.com Fri Oct 21 21:40:35 2005 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Character Generator ROM data In-Reply-To: <0IOQ00188PGXSMY1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOQ00188PGXSMY1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051021223603.A94874@wilma.widomaker.com> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > > > > From: Chuck Swiger > >I'm looking for a downloadable rom image for something like in old video > > Is simple. Find a pattern you like in row or colum scan and convert the > bit pattern to a string of hex values and cook an Eprom/EEPROM. > Ok - Just probing for any existing rom dump files that might be out there w/o having to type a bunch of stuff in ;)) I've an opportunity to put a message in an unusual place. --Chuck ***** ***** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ******* * * * * * * * * * * * * * ***** * * From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 21 21:49:01 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:49:01 -0400 Subject: PC floppy cable twists... In-Reply-To: <200510210612.j9L6COJo080691@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200510220249.j9M2mwHI007594@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: > > ... discussion about this on another list got me curious - what *was* > the point of that cable twist in a (IBM clone) PC floppy cable, when > every other system on the planet was using straight-through cables? > There are two stories on this one. Story 1 is that the original IBM power supply was only 63 watts, and didn't have enough power to run two drive motors at once. However, the "straight-through" interface only had one motor-control line, but several (3 or 4) drive select lines. By inserting the twist, one of the extra drive select lines became an independent motor on-off control line for the 2nd drive. Story 2 is that for service reasons, IBM did not want to have to deal with drive jumpering, they wanted every drive to be the same so that drives could be simply swapped with no fuss if one failed. I worked for Zenith [Data Systems] at the time, and Zenith [different division, but we had some contact after the IBM PC was introduced] made the original power supplies for IBM [as well as the power supply for my Z-100]. We were always told that story 1 was correct. Also, the logic behind story 2 doesn't address the fact that drive terminators still had to be configured. So I say it was because of the drive motor power requirements. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. From cswiger at widomaker.com Fri Oct 21 21:49:37 2005 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:49:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Character Generator ROM data In-Reply-To: <0IOQ006GTPOHG5R2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOQ006GTPOHG5R2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051021224704.E94874@wilma.widomaker.com> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > Chuck, > > Did a quick Google on "character generator roms" and this was the third hit. > http://www.atariarchives.org/cgp/Ch02_Sec04.php Come to think of it, I do have some Atari ROM dumps around here - that might work. Thanks! --Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 21 21:51:50 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:51:50 -0400 Subject: Character Generator ROM data Message-ID: <0IOQ000KYQK6WF12@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Character Generator ROM data > From: cswiger > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:40:35 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > >> > >> > From: Chuck Swiger >> >I'm looking for a downloadable rom image for something like in old video >> >> Is simple. Find a pattern you like in row or colum scan and convert the >> bit pattern to a string of hex values and cook an Eprom/EEPROM. >> > >Ok - Just probing for any existing rom dump files that might be out >there w/o having to type a bunch of stuff in ;)) I've an opportunity >to put a message in an unusual place. > >--Chuck Dont have any on line myself. However I've done it by hand and it's not bad. Actually you can do a cleaner set without all the fluff or with needed chars. One thing, the Eprom or EEprom needs to be adaquately fast. Not a big problen with moderm parts but the old 2716 and 2732 were a tad slow. The search string was a first try thing. So you may start with that and tweek if for what you want. I'd be surprized if there isn't something out there. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 21 22:13:52 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:13:52 -0700 Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: <000801c5d6a5$7cbb3a40$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000801c5d6a5$7cbb3a40$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: At 8:11 PM -0500 10/21/05, Jay West wrote: >Sellam wrote.... >>>God damn it. This isn't the fucking antique radio mailing list. Take it >>>to a more appropriate list or take it off-list. > >I'm halfway willing to officially sanction all discussion of antique radios ;) > >Jay And I'm more than half tempted to think that would be a good idea. I think my question (which was well marked so that those that don't care didn't have to look at it) got a lot better answer than it would have if I'd asked on some place like rec.audio.tubes. Though now that I think about it, I think I'll ask there as well and see what kind of answers I get :^) Of course even with some excellent answers both on and off list, I'm no closer to knowing what I want to do :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 21 22:22:12 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:22:12 -0500 Subject: OT: Tube Audio References: <000801c5d6a5$7cbb3a40$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <00b201c5d6b7$cb47b280$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Zane wrote... > And I'm more than half tempted to think that would be a good idea. There was a winking smiley on my original post ;) J From phirkel at sympatico.ca Fri Oct 21 23:26:10 2005 From: phirkel at sympatico.ca (Philippe Vachon) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:26:10 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 Discovery and Restoration Message-ID: <4359BF62.1090107@sympatico.ca> Hi Folks. Being a student of Engineering at Carleton University, every day I walked by an old PDP-8 that was on display in the halls. However, over the years it got bashed up and abused, since there was nothing protecting it. Recently, I spoke to the chair of the department, and he (excitedly) agreed to provide me with space and the machine to restore, in hopes that the faculty could display it in its original glory (and even better if it is functional!). I started the restoration this past Thursday. It shall be one hell of a job to say the least. The machine was on display for close to 20 years, I figure, and as such took quite a beating. One of the parts in the worst condition is the bank of switches on the front. These were trashed by students walking by and playing around with them over the year. So, the statistics for switches: 7 Brown Switches irreparable 4 White Switches irreparable 6 Brown Switches reparable 5 White Switches reparable 2 White Switches are perfectly intact 1 Brown Switch is perfectly intact Also, unfortunately, certain flipchips (according to my schematics, anyways) are missing. The ADC option was installed, I know for sure, while the memory parity and power control stuff was not. At any rate, the first 11 flipchips from rows A and B on the processor side of things are missing in action. The following flipchips are missing: W501 R302 * 2 S603 R002 * 5 S111 * 9 R111 S603 * 2 S602 * 2 R405 * 2 S202 S203 * 2 S107 * 3 S151 R203 G209 * 3 R202 * 3 R503 The power supply unit for this machine has already blown in my face once, any advice on how to test/ensure that the PSU is functional? I'm keeping a log of my progress at http://www.cowpig.ca and would appreciate any feedback people offer and any suggestions people have over the course of the project. I'd really like to try to get this machine working. If anybody has any of the parts needed, and is willing to part with them, I would greatly appreciate it! Regards, Phil. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 21 23:46:35 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:46:35 -0700 Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: <00b201c5d6b7$cb47b280$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000801c5d6a5$7cbb3a40$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <00b201c5d6b7$cb47b280$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: At 10:22 PM -0500 10/21/05, Jay West wrote: >Zane wrote... >>And I'm more than half tempted to think that would be a good idea. > >There was a winking smiley on my original post ;) I know :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Oct 21 23:50:33 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:50:33 -0400 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: <0IOQ00BECHQ006V1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOQ00BECHQ006V1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4359C519.9030207@atarimuseum.com> I know of one person on the list who owns such a beastie, I'm curious if anyone else owns an 11/725 and would consider possibly selling/trading it? Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/146 - Release Date: 10/21/2005 From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Oct 21 23:54:50 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:54:50 -0400 Subject: DEC Grey??? In-Reply-To: <20051021212642.67697.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051021212642.67697.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4359C61A.6040209@atarimuseum.com> I have a VT101, the top 1/2 of the case is yellowing, I'm told there is a DEC Grey that can be purchased to refurb the case, anyone know where I can obtain some??? Curt > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/146 - Release Date: 10/21/2005 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 21 23:59:22 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:59:22 -0700 Subject: OT: Suggestions on modern PC sites? In-Reply-To: <00b201c5d6b7$cb47b280$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000801c5d6a5$7cbb3a40$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <00b201c5d6b7$cb47b280$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: I'm a bit out of date on what are good sites for getting info on PC parts. My existing Pentium 4 is about half way to being a classic, and I'm finally feeling the need for more speed (I confess, it's a game). Anyone have any recommendations for info sites? In case anyone is interested I'm looking for info on the following types of things: Asus motherboard that will support both an old Intel Socket 775 pre-EM64T 3.2Ghz CPU, and the newer dual core chips Good 128MB or 256MB Graphics card (can't believe I'm saying that). Something along the lines of the Antec P180 case (quiet with good ventilation) Offlist so as to not offend anyone might be good ;^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 22 00:04:09 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:04:09 -0700 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: <4359C519.9030207@atarimuseum.com> References: <0IOQ00BECHQ006V1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <4359C519.9030207@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: At 12:50 AM -0400 10/22/05, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >I know of one person on the list who owns such a beastie, I'm >curious if anyone else owns an 11/725 and would consider possibly >selling/trading it? I wish! That's the one VAX of that vintage I'd actually consider owning. Shoot, I'd love to simply find some good pictures of one! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Oct 22 00:36:08 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:36:08 -0500 Subject: IRIS 2400/ SMPSU questions Message-ID: <5041011d5b534e2a95c3272ff96e0765@valleyimplants.com> Turns out the second bit wasn't a varistor, but a disk cap (.1mfd/50v) I'm now trying to figure out what happened. It seems rational that the paper cap blew first, but from there I'm not sure. It seems a bit bizarre that two caps blew at the same time. The paper cap was wired between the primary of a transformer and a large power resistor that connected to (ground? the other side of the primary, anyway, and whatever that went to). The second problem area was from the secondary of the same transformer. 4 leads run to a stud rectifier bridge, and across each stud there is a .1mfd/50v disk cap dumping into a 3.3ohm 2-watt resistor connected to the other side of the rectifier. This resistor burnt up. The only options I could think of was that the demise of the primary cap set up a oscillation of sufficiently high frequency that the reactance of the .1mfd cap was sufficiently low that enough current went through to overload the resistor, or (2) 2 capacitors went on the fritz, and on the second one the shorting whiskers burnt away without blowing the cap because of the load resistor, which smoked instead, or (c) some bizarre transient appeared on that winding that blew the 50v dielectric and was blocked by the final output choke so that it didn't blow the final 7.5v electrolytic filter caps. And now for the question- I have new caps/resistor- should I look anywhere else for problems before I plug everything back together? None of my theories sound really convincing, and I don't want to blow anything else in this machine. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Oct 22 02:40:13 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:40:13 +0100 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051021155012.3df71070@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051021155012.3df71070@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4359ECDD.108@gjcp.net> Joe R. wrote: > I expect that 3rd party cards vs original MITs cards would detract from > their value but not to the extend that 3rd party mods would to a > collector's car. I suppose a better comparision would be a 1930s Duesenburg > or some other car that were ALL build to order and no two were the same. Offtopic, but I think a lot of car manufacturers will do stuff to order - for a price. I once looked at a car for someone (Citro?n XM - most are over 10 years old and the most basic one has around eight computers scattered around it, so they're sort of on-topic) which was quite unusual, having all the high-spec toys but with a grey cloth interior from the "entry level" ones. Seems the chap that originally bought it didn't like leather seats, so for about ?1000 extra he had the factory replace the interior. It probably went into a mid-spec one, so I expect they got paid twice for it! Gordon. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 22 03:04:33 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 01:04:33 -0700 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 References: Message-ID: <4359F290.722FC909@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Here is my short review of the power cord > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_F/PS_Audio.htm > > > > I took it home and hooked it up to my new custom case computer which also > > cost me about $550. It is a modern 3 GHz Pentium that looks like a 1975 > > SWTPC 6800. > > Ah, but does it make the machine run any faster, or crash less often, or... > > [ :-) in case you're humour-impaired ] > > -tony We have to get way more sophisticated about this: "Use the SMIMS SX-5000 power cord with your computer monitor to improve the display. Eliminated noise cleans up the high-frequency artifacts in the display and so clarifies fine picture resolution. Computer gamers especially will appreciate the smoother on-screen motion. The high-speed motion typical of computer games - technically described as the dynamic characteristics of frame-to-frame transfer - requires energy on demand to handle the screen changes when drawing a new frame. The SMIMS SX-5000 power cord delivers that energy with it's large-gauge conductors - conductors capable of 4 times the energy transfer of ordinary power cords." ..could devise a whole marketing scam (whoops, I mean 'plan'), applying audiophile hyperbole to the video end of things where theres lots of room for subjective interpretation and there's even an analog aspect to play with. Note that while taken as a whole it's a bunch of silly techno-babble irrelevant to the product, each sentence taken in isolation can be argued to be technically "true". Lame attempt to make this on-topic: As far as silly marketing hyperbole goes, I remember in the late 70s when "Turbo PASCAL" and "Turbo BASIC" were released and thinking "Oh, geez, the stupidity of macho car marketing comes to the world of computing". Then there were those insipid "Turbo Mode" switches on late-80-early-90s PCs. And the attached numeric LED clock rate displays, which were nothing but numerals hard-wired to the switch. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 22 03:04:54 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 01:04:54 -0700 Subject: early embedded microprocs, was Re: OT: Tube Audio References: <0IOQ00EAHNQRIAH2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4359F2A5.20E0ABE6@cs.ubc.ca> Allison wrote: > That and we reaching the point where computers and radios that contain > or are married to them are over 10 years old (some a whole lot older, > think Pioneer). .. a couple of years ago a friend asked me to repair two Sherwood "Micro CPU 100" Stereo FM tuners from ~1974-76 which had an embedded RCA 1802 microprocessor. This was a high-end consumer product in it's time. While the construction was atrocious (high-end consumer construction, still in the low end of the spectrum of electronics construction) they were interesting (and 'collectable' / 'significant') as they would have been one of the first consumer products to use an embedded microprocessor in something other than a 'computing product' (i.e. not a computer or calculator). Actually it might be nice to build a list of such 70's era products that (non-obviously) contain embedded microprocessors. (Hey, back on-topic.) From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Oct 22 04:16:50 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:16:50 +0100 Subject: OT: Tube Audio References: Message-ID: <002701c5d6e9$567a3220$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> > > I'm halfway willing to officially sanction all discussion of antique radios > > ;) > > That half might get you punched in the nose. > > Actually, there are no good antique radio groups/lists - all are watered > down. There is a good military radio list, however. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > For the web enabled amongst us, there is a good UK based vintage radio forum at: http://www.vintage-radio.net (but I don't want to kick off the whole mailing list / web forum thing again........) Jim. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Oct 22 02:56:51 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:56:51 +0100 Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:50:58 EDT." <0IOQ00EAHNQRIAH2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510220756.IAA29871@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Allison said: > That and we reaching the point where computers and radios that contain > or are married to them are over 10 years old (some a whole lot older, > think Pioneer). My Racal RA-1792 receiver is completely computer controlled and that was designed nearly 20 yrs ago, although mine was only made in 1989. My radio is fitted with the remote control board and the plan is to write a program to control it over the network (using an appropriate age computer, of course) and stream the audio over the network too. Then I'll be able to play radio (almost) anywhere in the house... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Oct 22 06:11:58 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:11:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Character Generator ROM data In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20051021213654.028baf90@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <5.2.1.1.1.20051021213654.028baf90@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <16720.195.212.29.67.1129979518.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > Gang - > an MCM6571A (or it could use a 6574) -BUT- I do not need exactly that > font - any 7x9 data will work. Spent the past hour trying terms in > google w/o > anything usable turning up. > Does it need to be *specifically* 7x9? There are various bitmapped fonts floating around. Gordon. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Sat Oct 22 10:55:11 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:55:11 -0500 Subject: Need help with a BA11-K power supply In-Reply-To: <1129836452.42993@sj-nntpcache-3> Message-ID: Alright, I thought I would crosspost this to see if anyone here has one of these modules. I don't even need to look at this, I remember that the relay does not kick on at all. I have a DEC jumper that runs across the two molex terminals on the back of this module that just plugs in. So, that being said, does anyone here have any of these modules? I know the other 3 modules of the power supply are common replacements, so I'm hoping someone saved a spare of these too ;) If you've got one you want to part with, let me know! Thanks Julian -----Original Message----- From: owner-info-pdp11 at village.org [mailto:owner-info-pdp11 at village.org] On Behalf Of Don North Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 2:20 PM To: info-pdp11 at village.org Subject: Re: Need help with a BA11-K power supply Julian Wolfe wrote: > Well, I decided to take another crack at getting my 11/34 system > working again. Currently I've still got some problems with it - > firstly though, the power supply. It blew when I hooked one of the > front panel switches up to it, though nothing seemed to be wrong as > far as what I could tell from all the diagrams. > > Right now the disassembled BA11-K box is sitting in my living room > taking up space. Now, when the PSU blew, I was able to notice that > the spark came from what LOOKED like the portion that the power cord > comes from.I looked at the traces under a magnifying glass, and > couldn't see anything wrong, and I can't smell anything. I checked all the fuses, those seem to be sound. > > In any case, when hooked up to nothing, the fans don't even kick on. On this box the fans are wired directly across the primary of the main power transformer, so unless the fans died (both of them) it would indicate that the main power relay circuit is not kicking in. The K box has a power input circuit breaker on the back that needs to be flipped to on (I'm sure you got this far) and then the power relay needs to be engaged as well. The 11/34 console switch can do this (wires run from the controller to the front panel switch) and it can also be done from the rear 3pin molex connectors as well. Short pins 1-3 to engage the power-on relay. This power circuit on module 54-13089 has it's own little power transformer and a bunch of diodes and capacitors. If shorting the pins on the molex (either one on the back will work, both are wired to the same place) does not turn the fans on, or you don't hear the clicking of the relay, then most likely the sparks that eminated from near the power cord entrance (which is this power module) were from this board, and it likely indicates blown circuitry (sparks are NEVER a good sign). Hope this helps. > Can anyone give me a test process I can go through to diagnose the > problem, or would anyone here be willing to look at the power supply > for me if I shipped it to them? > > As it is, I have this dead machine doing nothing and my girlfriend > keeps pestering me about it every time she comes over because it doesn't work. > > In any case, I'd appreciate any help that could be given to me! > > Thanks! > Julian > > ---------- > To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to > info-pdp11-request at village.org, with the first line of the message > body being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes). ---------- To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to info-pdp11-request at village.org, with the first line of the message body being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes). From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 22 12:08:22 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:08:22 Subject: early embedded microprocs, was Re: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: <4359F2A5.20E0ABE6@cs.ubc.ca> References: <0IOQ00EAHNQRIAH2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051022120822.11af46bc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:04 AM 10/22/05 -0700, you wrote: >Allison wrote: >> That and we reaching the point where computers and radios that contain >> or are married to them are over 10 years old (some a whole lot older, >> think Pioneer). > >.. a couple of years ago a friend asked me to repair two Sherwood "Micro CPU >100" Stereo FM tuners from ~1974-76 which had an embedded RCA 1802 microprocessor. >This was a high-end consumer product in it's time. > >While the construction was atrocious (high-end consumer construction, >still in the low end of the spectrum of electronics construction) they were >interesting (and 'collectable' / 'significant') as they would have been one >of the first consumer products to use an embedded microprocessor in something >other than a 'computing product' (i.e. not a computer or calculator). > >Actually it might be nice to build a list of such 70's era products that >(non-obviously) contain embedded microprocessors. That's a closely guarded secret. The chip collectors like to buy up such items and strip them for the collectable ICs. Joe From bqt at Update.UU.SE Sat Oct 22 11:36:21 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 18:36:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) In-Reply-To: <200510211700.j9LH04hi085467@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510211700.j9LH04hi085467@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Johnny Billquist wrote: > However, it won't be much for the original question on this thread, as > Multos don't support the RL8A either... I'll correct myself. Multos does support the RL8A, as I discovered when I checked the sources after I posted. However, they appear to only have used RL01s. So I don't know how it will behave with an RL02. (When I played with it last, I only used RK05). Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at Update.UU.SE Sat Oct 22 11:38:30 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 18:38:30 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) In-Reply-To: <200510211700.j9LH04hi085467@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510211700.j9LH04hi085467@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > >Subject: Re: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) > > From: Johnny Billquist > > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:06:20 +0200 (CEST) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > >> You may or may not have an RL boot PROM in your KM8AA, but if you > >> don't, you can always key in the RL bootstrap by hand. > > > >I'm not even sure they exist. Anyone have boot roms for RL? > > There must be as DEC sold 8As and RL02s as multi user WPS systems > (wps200 comes to mind). Good point! > No idea what the underlying OS for WPS was. There wasn't any. WPS is self contained. I have a RX01 floppy with WPS-8 somewhere... I've even booted it on one 8/A here. Works fine. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at Update.UU.SE Sat Oct 22 11:47:02 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 18:47:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DHV (was: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions) In-Reply-To: <200510211700.j9LH04hi085467@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510211700.j9LH04hi085467@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > >Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions > > From: Paul Koning > > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:58:55 -0400 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > Allison> Yes I do. However for a single user system the load is not > > Allison> an issue. If your running a timeshare system such as RSTS > > Allison> or RSX with more than one user then DHV11 sense as well. > > > >Not true. 9600 baud is 960 interrupts per second, on a character I/O > >device. That's a big number for a PDP-11. Output will be > >significantly less of a burden with a DH type output controller than > >with other types -- even for just one active terminal. > > Depends somewhat on the OS. It dont know about you but most people > can't type much faster than 100WPM (less than 10 chars sec). Um, that's irrelevant. A DH type controller also interrupt on each character input. It's output that differs. And filling a full screen is 1920 characters, which at 9600 bps will take about 2 seconds. Do that on one terminal will the system will definitely notice. If you have a serial printer of some speed (such as an LN03) we're talking about a lot more than about 2k of data sometimes. So even with a single user system, it can make a big impact. And of course, if you have anything else running at the same time, it will make it even worse. Multi-user systems definitely suffer if you use DL11 controllers for users. It's more or less a no-no. I'm not even sure you can drive one single line at 9600 bps at full speed on a DL11, let alone 19200. > For RT11 it's mostly unimportant. For unix (the most sensitive > to interrupt loading you _may_ care as a single user). It matters for both, as I've pointed out above. > > Allison> For most of my 11s four lines is the limit for what I can > > Allison> seem to keep busy. Figure a user terminal, LA100 Printer > > Allison> and serial line for modem or data line to another system. At > > Allison> the extreme I've run two terminals for OSs that support that > > Allison> but, I can only type on on at any instant. ;) > > > >Sure, if you're mostly doing editing, then the CPU burden of high > >speed output may not be obvious. If you had an LN03 or similar > >printer, you might see it more easily. An LA100, of course, isn't > >much of a problem because it is quite slow. > > Actually printers are a bursty load (fill the buffer and go away) > and I've found that in practice the faster you fill the buffer > the better (high line rates or use a parallel interface). Yes, and that burst will drop a PDP-11 to it's knees if it's on a DL11 at high speed. Sure, if you're running 2400 bps then you'll live. But not many does these days. > Performance was good enough that we used that over the VAX > (line lengths limited us to 2400baud in our part of the mill). Yes, interrupt performance on the VAX was not pretty. One or two DZ11 on a VAX-11/750 would kill it. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 22 11:56:31 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:56:31 -0600 Subject: Replacing Old LEDs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435A6F3F.2000302@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >Msot common red LEDs have a Vf (forward voltage) of 1.8V. Higher voltage >tend to be the modern low-current ones that you don't want. I'd get the >1.8V one and see what happens. > >Except for very speicalised aplications I've never really worried about >the characteristics of the LEDs I am using. Just get a generic red LED >and pick a reisstor to pass between 10 and 20 mA through it. > > > Well the current does add up, if you are looking at a front panel. Just remember what you are driving the led with. A regular TTL gate has only 16 ma of sink current. If you are replacing a old led, I would make sure the size of the led is right, and avoid the high brightness ones. Think what they had in the 70's compared to today. >-tony > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 22 12:03:04 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:03:04 -0600 Subject: Character Generator ROM data In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20051021213654.028baf90@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <5.2.1.1.1.20051021213654.028baf90@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <435A70C8.4010502@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Swiger wrote: > Gang - > > Anybody know of readily available data for, say, 7x9 dot-matrix > characters? > I'm looking for a downloadable rom image for something like in old > video cards to > paint ascii characters on a display. > > For example, my Polymorphic Systems Video Terminal Interface (VTI) > card uses > an MCM6571A (or it could use a 6574) -BUT- I do not need exactly > that > font - any 7x9 data will work. Spent the past hour trying terms in > google w/o > anything usable turning up. > > > ******* ***** * > * * * * > * * * * > * * ****** > * * * * > * * * * > * * * * > * * * * > * ***** * * > > --Chuck > Drat I just threw out that data. Well not the ROM data but the manual for a video display that had the character set. Remember the roms used desenders so it was more like 8x12?. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 22 12:51:25 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:51:25 -0700 Subject: Replacing Old LEDs In-Reply-To: <435A6F3F.2000302@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <435A6F3F.2000302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200510221051250164.0B83A82C@10.0.0.252> On 10/22/2005 at 10:56 AM woodelf wrote: >Well the current does add up, if you are looking at a front panel. Just >remember what you are driving >the led with. A regular TTL gate has only 16 ma of sink current. If you >are replacing a old led, I would >make sure the size of the led is right, and avoid the high brightness >ones. Think what they had in the >70's compared to today. It really doesn't matter. Consider a typical 5v OC driver, driving an LED through a current limiting resistor to limit current to, oh, no more than 15 ma. across the 1.8v of drop across the LED. So,assuming that we have the full 5 volt supply to drop across our load (not really, but close enough for worst-case calculations), the voltage drop across the resistor would be about 3.2v, making the resistor (3.2/.015) = 213, call it 220 ohms, the closest "standard" value. Now, suppose we replace the LED with a dead short (i.e. an infinite current sink). The current through the 220 ohm resistor would rise to only (5.0/220) = 22 ma. Which, while causing the LSTTL gate to break a sweat, probably wouldn't damage it under normal circumstances (I've used 74LS06's to drive 220/330 terminated loads for years with no problem). In other words, as long as the LED is large enough to handle the current and the current limiting resistor is intact, the size doesn't matter much (when was the last time you heard that?). Most plain old red LEDs were rated for about 20 ma., maximum current, so that's the rating I'd shoot for. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 22 13:56:59 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:56:59 -0400 Subject: DHV (was: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions) Message-ID: <0IOR00FDIZA7H941@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DHV (was: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions) > From: Johnny Billquist > Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 18:47:02 +0200 (CEST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > >> >Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions >> > From: Paul Koning >> > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:58:55 -0400 >> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > >> > Allison> Yes I do. However for a single user system the load is not >> > Allison> an issue. If your running a timeshare system such as RSTS >> > Allison> or RSX with more than one user then DHV11 sense as well. >> > >> >Not true. 9600 baud is 960 interrupts per second, on a character I/O >> >device. That's a big number for a PDP-11. Output will be >> >significantly less of a burden with a DH type output controller than >> >with other types -- even for just one active terminal. >> >> Depends somewhat on the OS. It dont know about you but most people >> can't type much faster than 100WPM (less than 10 chars sec). > >Um, that's irrelevant. A DH type controller also interrupt on each >character input. It's output that differs. And filling a full screen is >1920 characters, which at 9600 bps will take about 2 seconds. Do that on >one terminal will the system will definitely notice. If you have a serial >printer of some speed (such as an LN03) we're talking about a lot more >than about 2k of data sometimes. So even with a single user system, it can >make a big impact. And of course, if you have anything else running at the >same time, it will make it even worse. Multi-user systems definitely >suffer if you use DL11 controllers for users. It's more or less a no-no. Results differ. Actualy outputting a full screen to a vt100 at 9600 causes a fair number of input chars (Xon/Xoff buffer management) and printers (la100, LN01, LN03 all have buffers larger than 2k before they assert buffer controls (be they hardware or XON/XOFF). There is a distinct differnce in system performace due to those factors. >I'm not even sure you can drive one single line at 9600 bps at full speed >on a DL11, let alone 19200. LSI-11/PDP-11/03 that is tue due to processor speed. By the 11/23B 38.4 works! (I run a TU58 that way) >> For RT11 it's mostly unimportant. For unix (the most sensitive >> to interrupt loading you _may_ care as a single user). > >It matters for both, as I've pointed out above. In theory, in the practical world there are systems where idle cycles are a reality. You have to use all of those up first. >> > Allison> For most of my 11s four lines is the limit for what I can >> > Allison> seem to keep busy. Figure a user terminal, LA100 Printer >> > Allison> and serial line for modem or data line to another system. At >> > Allison> the extreme I've run two terminals for OSs that support that >> > Allison> but, I can only type on on at any instant. ;) >> > >> >Sure, if you're mostly doing editing, then the CPU burden of high >> >speed output may not be obvious. If you had an LN03 or similar >> >printer, you might see it more easily. An LA100, of course, isn't >> >much of a problem because it is quite slow. >> >> Actually printers are a bursty load (fill the buffer and go away) >> and I've found that in practice the faster you fill the buffer >> the better (high line rates or use a parallel interface). > >Yes, and that burst will drop a PDP-11 to it's knees if it's on a DL11 at >high speed. Sure, if you're running 2400 bps then you'll live. But not >many does these days. Note the bursty loads were felt worse (incresed delays) when the baud rate was medium (below 4800). Too much "barely thinking" inbetween interrupts waiting to fill the buffer on the printer. With the LPV11 (same problems as DL only very fast parallel byte transfer ( 20-40,000bytes/S) the driver would push data from its buffer till the printer yelled wait. So the time impact was actually lower. The same driver would push a DL the same way for a LA100 or LN03 as both had big buffers and would take it fast as you could send it (9600!) and then send back XOFF to stem the tide and the system would return from the printer driver. Larger print jobs had a differnt impact but as printer speed increased their buffer sizes helped to absorb that. Keep in mid this was an office system so print jobs were typically 1-4 pages (small). Printing has a different interrupt load then interactive terminals. Interactive terminals keystrokes are slow and screen fills are the real load. Define PDP-11. The family of CPUs and performance varies greatly. For example the 11/44 could not take a TU58 at 9600, (barely at 4800). Yet I run a BA11-VA with 11/23, M8059 ram, DLV11J and MRV11 with a tu58 as boot and mass storage under RT11XM. works fine at 38.4K baud. The only slowness there is waiting for the TU58 to read the directory then seek to the file. >> Performance was good enough that we used that over the VAX >> (line lengths limited us to 2400baud in our part of the mill). > >Yes, interrupt performance on the VAX was not pretty. One or two DZ11 >on a VAX-11/750 would kill it. Yes but the limiting factor there was not the VAX interfaces but the greater than 3000ft of wire between us and the VAX. ML3-6 to ML1-1 was a long walk! Ex mill rat here! However 750 performance was pretty tepid, the DMF32 was only ok. When we moved up to it a few complained it was slower than the 11/23B but easier to use. Later on the whole mess was solved with multisessioning on LAT and LAT servers. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 22 13:58:39 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:58:39 -0400 Subject: Character Generator ROM data Message-ID: <0IOR009F4ZCYM8E3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Character Generator ROM data > From: woodelf > Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:03:04 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Drat I just threw out that data. Well not the ROM data but the manual >for a video display >that had the character set. Remember the roms used desenders so it was >more like 8x12?. I'm sure the VT100 series manuals are on line somewere. Other manuals that have that data was the Processor Tech VDM-1. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 22 14:06:50 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Character Generator ROM data In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20051021213654.028baf90@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <5.2.1.1.1.20051021213654.028baf90@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <20051022120408.N77551@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Chuck Swiger wrote: > Anybody know of readily available data for, say, 7x9 dot-matrix characters? > I'm looking for a downloadable rom image for something like in old video > cards to > paint ascii characters on a display. I have (but not accessible today) the IBM 5150 CGA and MDA character sets as course dot-matrix HP PCL , and as Corona Data (Cordata) fonts From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 22 14:12:39 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <4359F290.722FC909@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4359F290.722FC909@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20051022121015.F77551@shell.lmi.net> > We have to get way more sophisticated about this: > "Use the SMIMS SX-5000 power cord with your computer monitor to improve the Howzbout: also mention that viruses will not be transmitted through this cord > Lame attempt to make this on-topic: As far as silly marketing hyperbole goes, I > remember in the late 70s when "Turbo PASCAL" and "Turbo BASIC" were released > and thinking "Oh, geez, the stupidity of macho car marketing comes to the world > of computing". Then there were those insipid "Turbo Mode" switches on > late-80-early-90s PCs. And the attached numeric LED clock rate displays, which > were nothing but numerals hard-wired to the switch. Exam question: what is actually measured by those numeric displays? For a while, Subaru had a model called "Turbo XT 16"! From bqt at Update.UU.SE Sat Oct 22 14:14:07 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:14:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: <200510220540.j9M5dtJd097301@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510220540.j9M5dtJd097301@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Oct 2005, "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > I know of one person on the list who owns such a beastie, I'm curious if > anyone else owns an 11/725 and would consider possibly selling/trading it? You'll probably hate me for telling that I threw an 11/730 away less than a year ago. But it was in Sweden, and I doubt anyone would want to pay for the shipping. But the hardware I still keep around is much more interesting... :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From gtulloch at shaw.ca Sat Oct 22 14:14:09 2005 From: gtulloch at shaw.ca (gtulloch at shaw.ca) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:14:09 -0500 Subject: Calling Mike Stein... Message-ID: Mike Stein, drop me a note, none of your email addresses work anymore :) Regards, Gord From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Oct 22 14:25:54 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:25:54 -0500 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <20051022121015.F77551@shell.lmi.net> References: <4359F290.722FC909@cs.ubc.ca> <20051022121015.F77551@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051022142448.051c2dd0@mail> At 02:12 PM 10/22/2005, Fred Cisin wrote: >Exam question: what is actually measured by those numeric displays? The absence or presence of jumpers on the little daughterboard, encoded as digits? - John From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 22 14:39:58 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:39:58 -0700 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051022142448.051c2dd0@mail> References: <4359F290.722FC909@cs.ubc.ca> <20051022121015.F77551@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20051022142448.051c2dd0@mail> Message-ID: <200510221239580422.0BE70FC8@10.0.0.252> On 10/22/2005 at 2:25 PM John Foust wrote: >At 02:12 PM 10/22/2005, Fred Cisin wrote: >>Exam question: what is actually measured by those numeric displays? > >The absence or presence of jumpers on the little daughterboard, >encoded as digits? Well, in some cases, the presence or absence of a "turbo" signal from the motherboard; in others, whether or not the "turbo" switch itself is pressed. I've had several "turbo" systems with functioning "turbo" displays (i.e., the display changes with the switch setting) that run at exactly the same clock regardless of the turbo switch. Very akin to those cheap import "21 jewel" watches, where most of the jewels are simply glued on somewhere on the movement. It isn't a lie, but it's a bit of a whopper. This whole business reminds me of an old scifi short story where a fellow wakes up 100 years in the future and finds that car speedometers go to 350 mph--but start somewhere around 200 at a dead stop. Cheers, Chuck From cfandt at netsync.net Sat Oct 22 14:41:56 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:41:56 -0400 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <20051022121015.F77551@shell.lmi.net> References: <4359F290.722FC909@cs.ubc.ca> <20051022121015.F77551@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20051022153804.02d652e8@mail.netsync.net> Upon the date 03:12 PM 10/22/2005, Fred Cisin said something like: > > We have to get way more sophisticated about this: > > "Use the SMIMS SX-5000 power cord with your computer monitor to improve the > >Howzbout: also mention that viruses will not be transmitted through this >cord > > > Lame attempt to make this on-topic: As far as silly marketing hyperbole > goes, I > > remember in the late 70s when "Turbo PASCAL" and "Turbo BASIC" were > released > > and thinking "Oh, geez, the stupidity of macho car marketing comes to > the world > > of computing". Then there were those insipid "Turbo Mode" switches on > > late-80-early-90s PCs. And the attached numeric LED clock rate > displays, which > > were nothing but numerals hard-wired to the switch. > >Exam question: what is actually measured by those numeric displays? The only thing measurable is the observer's ability to see and interpret the two digits shown and perhaps the ability of that same observer to tinker with the jumpering of that display board to configure different numbers. $550.00. Indeed. Hmmph! Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From fireflyst at earthlink.net Sat Oct 22 14:42:11 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:42:11 -0500 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051022142448.051c2dd0@mail> Message-ID: Heh, yeah, that reminds me of some fun stuff I did back in the day...a friend of mine's father was a real jerk toward me and thought he knew everything there is to know about technology because he took a correspondence course, so I decided to play a little trick on him. I took those jumpers and arranged them so that the display read "8" instead of "33" and "n0" instead of "66" (it was a 486DX). Then I used a program to merge two executables into one, so I merged a program that slowed the computer down to about 8mhz with his emm386 program. Man, I remember when he found out, he was so angry and freaked out when his computer ran that slow, and when he tried to hit the turbo switch it displayed "n0" Good times, good times *sigh* -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Foust Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 2:26 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 At 02:12 PM 10/22/2005, Fred Cisin wrote: >Exam question: what is actually measured by those numeric displays? The absence or presence of jumpers on the little daughterboard, encoded as digits? - John From CCTalk at catcorner.org Sat Oct 22 16:00:46 2005 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 17:00:46 -0400 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A336A2@mail.catcorner.org> > From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 3:40 PM > > This whole business reminds me of an old scifi short story > where a fellow > wakes up 100 years in the future and finds that car > speedometers go to 350 > mph--but start somewhere around 200 at a dead stop. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Wasn't it "The Marching Morons" by C. M. Kornbluth Kelly From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 15:28:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:28:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Character Generator ROM data In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20051021213654.028baf90@wilma.widomaker.com> from "Chuck Swiger" at Oct 21, 5 09:47:44 pm Message-ID: > > Gang - > > Anybody know of readily available data for, say, 7x9 dot-matrix characters? > I'm looking for a downloadable rom image for something like in old video > cards to > paint ascii characters on a display. Not directly applicaable, but it may be worth rememebring that there's an 8*8 font in the IBM PC (etc) BIOS ROM to be used for displaying characters in the CGA graohics modes. I assume it's in all clone BIOSes as well, at least all old ones. I think there's a software interrupt vector that points to it on a running PC, so it should be easy to find. Come to think of it, aren't there similar character fonts in most linux (and *bsd) distributions to be used for the same purpose. On my old debian machine, they seem to be in /usr/lib/kbd/consolefonts -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 15:33:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:33:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC floppy cable twists... In-Reply-To: <200510220249.j9M2mwHI007594@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> from "Barry Watzman" at Oct 21, 5 10:49:01 pm Message-ID: > Story 1 is that the original IBM power supply was only 63 watts, and didn't > have enough power to run two drive motors at once. However, the > "straight-through" interface only had one motor-control line, but several (3 > or 4) drive select lines. By inserting the twist, one of the extra drive > select lines became an independent motor on-off control line for the 2nd > drive. The factual part of that is most certainly true (the original PSU was 63W, the twist does connect the motor-on lines for the 2 drives to different pins on the controller) > > Story 2 is that for service reasons, IBM did not want to have to deal with > drive jumpering, they wanted every drive to be the same so that drives could > be simply swapped with no fuss if one failed. While this is probably not the primary reeason for the twist, it was certainly a bonus :-) > > I worked for Zenith [Data Systems] at the time, and Zenith [different > division, but we had some contact after the IBM PC was introduced] made the > original power supplies for IBM [as well as the power supply for my Z-100]. And yes, the IBM PC. PC/XT and PortahlePC power supplies are certainly Zenith. The ICs have Zenith house numbers on them (although it's bl**dy obvious what they really are). The AT PSU, at least the ones we got over here, were not always Zenith, though. FWIW, the PortablePC monitor is also a Zenith unit. > We were always told that story 1 was correct. Also, the logic behind story > 2 doesn't address the fact that drive terminators still had to be > configured. So I say it was because of the drive motor power requirements. > That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. I think you're right, but have no real proof -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 16:06:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:06:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <200510221239580422.0BE70FC8@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 22, 5 12:39:58 pm Message-ID: > Very akin to those cheap import "21 jewel" watches, where most of the > jewels are simply glued on somewhere on the movement. It isn't a lie, but > it's a bit of a whopper. I read somewhere that when the originator of jewels for bearings in watches tried to apply for a patent (or some other legal protection) for his idea, an old (then) watch was exhibited which had a jewel in the middle of the balance cock in appearently just the right postion, and thus the patent was not granted. Only later (?) was it 'discovered' that this jewel was purely for decoration. And weren't there '12 transistor' radios in the 1960's where half of the transistors had all 3 leads connected to the ground rail (and therefore they did nothing other than enable that statement to be printed on the case). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 15:40:30 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:40:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: <002701c5d6e9$567a3220$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> from "Jim Beacon" at Oct 22, 5 10:16:50 am Message-ID: > For the web enabled amongst us, there is a good UK based vintage radio forum > at: > > http://www.vintage-radio.net > > (but I don't want to kick off the whole mailing list / web forum thing > again........) DOes anyone know of a reasonable vintage tape recorder (and/or VCR) list or forum? It's not really vintage radio (which seems to deal mostly with AM broadcast-band sets), it's not vintage hi-fi. I am thinking of the 1950's and 1960's Philips, Grundig, etc reel-to-reel machines, real-to-real video recorders, N1500, V2000 etc VCRs and the like). Or am I the only person in thw world who fiddles with such machines? -tony k From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 15:42:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:42:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: early embedded microprocs, was Re: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051022120822.11af46bc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Oct 22, 5 12:08:22 pm Message-ID: > That's a closely guarded secret. The chip collectors like to buy up such > items and strip them for the collectable ICs. Perhaps I'd better not mention that a certain Fluke data logger contains a 4040 + support devices for the main control processor and a second 4040 + similar devices on the paper tape interface card... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 15:37:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:37:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: early embedded microprocs, was Re: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: <4359F2A5.20E0ABE6@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Oct 22, 5 01:04:54 am Message-ID: > Actually it might be nice to build a list of such 70's era products that > (non-obviously) contain embedded microprocessors. There was a TNS1000 microcontroller that had been masked-programmed to play 1 of about 20 different tunes. In the mid 1970s there was a rash of doorbells using that chip, both as commercial items and as magazine projects. At least one of the latter was called the 'Microchime' from what I remmeber. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 15:46:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:46:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need help with a BA11-K power supply In-Reply-To: from "Julian Wolfe" at Oct 22, 5 10:55:11 am Message-ID: > > Alright, I thought I would crosspost this to see if anyone here has one of > these modules. I don't even need to look at this, I remember that the relay > does not kick on at all. I have a DEC jumper that runs across the two molex > terminals on the back of this module that just plugs in. I didn't think you needed any kind of jumper with this module. The 2 3 pin connectors on the back are for the power control cables to the power controllers, there's a similar connector on the front that goes to the frontpanel power switch, and a 4 pin connector on the front to the mains transformer primary. Do you have the printset (schematics) for this unit? From what I remember (and it's been several years...) the power control circuit that operates that relay is very simple, and you should be able to track the problem down to a simple component. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 15:55:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:55:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replacing Old LEDs In-Reply-To: <435A6F3F.2000302@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Oct 22, 5 10:56:31 am Message-ID: > Well the current does add up, if you are looking at a front panel. Just True, but the PSU was designed to handle it :-) > remember what you are driving > the led with. A regular TTL gate has only 16 ma of sink current. If you That's 15mA _while maintaining the specifed output voltage_. You can actually sink a little more current without damaging the chip if you're happy for the output voltage to rise a bit. > are replacing a old led, I would > make sure the size of the led is right, and avoid the high brightness > ones. Think what they had in the > 70's compared to today. Exactly. In the 1970s they didn't have the high-brightness LEDs, they didn't have the low-current ones. Typical red LEDs had a Vf of 1.8V, and an If of 10-20mA Now, think of the circuit. Typically, you have the LED and a resistor (220 ohm to 330 Ohm) in series between the output of a TTL gate and +5V. That reistor _will_ limit the current. If the LED was a dead short, and the resistor 220 Ohms, then the current would be 5/220 = 22.7mA. OK, that's out of spec for a TTL gate, but I doubt it would do any damage. And no real LED has a zero forward voltage anyway. Suppose you fitted a high-brightness LED. Whatever the forward voltage is, it's likely to he higher than the original 1.8V. Which means the actually current will be _less_ (less voltage dropped across the resistor). The LED might end up looking somewhat dim, but it won't do any damage. The real problem would be using a low-current LED. The forward voltage of those is a little higher than the 'stnadard' type, so the current would be a bit less than the original, but still probahly high enough to damage the new LED (but no damage would aoccur to anything else). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 16:00:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:00:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <20051022121015.F77551@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 22, 5 12:12:39 pm Message-ID: > > of computing". Then there were those insipid "Turbo Mode" switches on > > late-80-early-90s PCs. And the attached numeric LED clock rate displays, which > > were nothing but numerals hard-wired to the switch. > > Exam question: what is actually measured by those numeric displays? The setting of some jumper links on the back of the display PCB? The ones I've seen basically had links which allowed each segment to be in one of 4 states : Always off Always on On in turbo mode, off in normal mode Off in turbo mode, on in normal mode You could 'program' any pair of patterns to be displayed. SLo and FASt were not uncommon. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 22 16:02:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:02:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: from "Johnny Billquist" at Oct 22, 5 09:14:07 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 22 Oct 2005, "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > > > I know of one person on the list who owns such a beastie, I'm curious if > > anyone else owns an 11/725 and would consider possibly selling/trading it? > > You'll probably hate me for telling that I threw an 11/730 away less than I will... The 11/730 is one of only 2 VAX families (the other being the 780 and its descnedants) that I consider to be truely repaiable. > But the hardware I still keep around is much more interesting... :-) Hmmmm.... I find the 11/730 to be a very interesting design. It's almost all simple PALs. -tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 22 16:15:22 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 17:15:22 -0400 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 Message-ID: <0IOS00DK75OSQBZ0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:06:59 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Very akin to those cheap import "21 jewel" watches, where most of the >> jewels are simply glued on somewhere on the movement. It isn't a lie, but >> it's a bit of a whopper. > >I read somewhere that when the originator of jewels for bearings in >watches tried to apply for a patent (or some other legal protection) for >his idea, an old (then) watch was exhibited which had a jewel in the >middle of the balance cock in appearently just the right postion, and >thus the patent was not granted. > >Only later (?) was it 'discovered' that this jewel was purely for decoration. > >And weren't there '12 transistor' radios in the 1960's where half of the >transistors had all 3 leads connected to the ground rail (and therefore >they did nothing other than enable that statement to be printed on the case). There were a few that were base 6transistor with parallel devices in the ouput amp to boost the count (8 or 10 tr). I used to buy them to harvest the extra devices or everything as they were had very cheaply. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 16:34:34 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:34:34 +1300 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: <4359C519.9030207@atarimuseum.com> References: <0IOQ00BECHQ006V1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <4359C519.9030207@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 10/22/05, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I know of one person on the list who owns such a beastie, I'm curious if > anyone else owns an 11/725 and would consider possibly selling/trading it? Yes, I own one; no I don't want to sell it - it's a nice compact Unibus machine that one can get running VMS 5.0 with a little creativity (disk/memory issues). It runs VMS 4.x great! If anyone has a spare RC25 cart or two, I wouldn't mind picking one up... it's likely to be cheaper than a Unibus SCSI interface. ;-) -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 16:36:54 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:36:54 +1300 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: References: <200510220540.j9M5dtJd097301@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 10/23/05, Johnny Billquist wrote: > You'll probably hate me for telling that I threw an 11/730 away less than > a year ago. > But it was in Sweden, and I doubt anyone would want to pay for the > shipping. I would have been happy to pay shipping for the CPU boards. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 22 17:34:05 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:34:05 -0700 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 References: <4359F290.722FC909@cs.ubc.ca> <20051022121015.F77551@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <435ABE5D.71774E7D@cs.ubc.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > > Exam question: what is actually measured by those numeric displays? The sucker index. From vrs at msn.com Sat Oct 22 17:43:35 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:43:35 -0700 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A336A2@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: From: "Kelly Leavitt" > > From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] > > This whole business reminds me of an old scifi short story > > where a fellow > > wakes up 100 years in the future and finds that car > > speedometers go to 350 > > mph--but start somewhere around 200 at a dead stop. > > > Wasn't it "The Marching Morons" by C. M. Kornbluth The way I remember that one was that they had changed all the speedometers to read in KPH instead of MPH, then added sound effects to make 60KPH sound like the thing was flat out, when everyone was really going about 37MPH. It really sounds a lot like standard marketing practice, to me. (My copy of the book is a couple of yards to my right.) Vince From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 22 17:49:28 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:49:28 -0700 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A336A2@mail.catcorner.org> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A336A2@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <200510221549280035.0C948A8E@10.0.0.252> On 10/22/2005 at 5:00 PM Kelly Leavitt wrote: >Wasn't it "The Marching Morons" by C. M. Kornbluth Sounds like it could be (without looking). The story evolves that our hero devises a scheme to rid the world of morons by starting a program to colonize Mars. Of course, the rockets never reach Mars, but the fake mail and tall tales keep the rockets full of volunteers. Right at about the point where the whole scheme succeeds, our hero finds himself shanghaied on such a rocket... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 22 17:52:23 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:52:23 -0700 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510221552230876.0C973971@10.0.0.252> On 10/22/2005 at 10:06 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >And weren't there '12 transistor' radios in the 1960's where half of the >transistors had all 3 leads connected to the ground rail (and therefore >they did nothing other than enable that statement to be printed on the >case). I hadn't realized that the manufacturers had even bothered to ground the things... Sort of like CPU clock speeds today. Didn't one of the 6809 design team say something to the effect of "if clock speeds really mattered, we'dve designed the chip to accept waveguide". Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 22 18:07:04 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 16:07:04 -0700 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: References: <0IOQ00BECHQ006V1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <4359C519.9030207@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: At 10:34 AM +1300 10/23/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: >If anyone has a spare RC25 cart or two, I wouldn't mind picking one >up... it's likely to be cheaper than a Unibus SCSI interface. ;-) How hard would it be to get a Unibus working in a VAX-11/725? I doubt I'll *ever* manage to get one, but if I did, I'd much rather switch it to SCSI than have to deal with the RC25. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 19:02:42 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 13:02:42 +1300 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: References: <0IOQ00BECHQ006V1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <4359C519.9030207@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 10/23/05, Zane H. Healy wrote: > How hard would it be to get a Unibus working in a VAX-11/725? I > doubt I'll *ever* manage to get one, but if I did, I'd much rather > switch it to SCSI than have to deal with the RC25. Hard? Not hard at all - yank the KLESI-U and drop in a Unibus SCSI card. I happen to _have the RC25 on it, and as has come up before, I've personally never had a problem with them (I should most likely add 'yet'). Of course, I have plenty of smallish SCSI drives that would be perfect, but unless I could find a reasonable deal on a controller, I'll just stick with DEC stuff for now. -ethan From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Oct 22 19:14:06 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 19:14:06 -0500 Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: References: <002701c5d6e9$567a3220$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20051022191406.646241c1.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:40:30 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > For the web enabled amongst us, there is a good UK based vintage radio forum > > at: > > > > http://www.vintage-radio.net > > > > (but I don't want to kick off the whole mailing list / web forum thing > > again........) > > DOes anyone know of a reasonable vintage tape recorder (and/or VCR) list > or forum? It's not really vintage radio (which seems to deal mostly with > AM broadcast-band sets), it's not vintage hi-fi. I am thinking of the > 1950's and 1960's Philips, Grundig, etc reel-to-reel machines, > real-to-real video recorders, N1500, V2000 etc VCRs and the like). Or am > I the only person in thw world who fiddles with such machines? > You're not alone. And I do need a supplier for belts and what-not. And tape, even. -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 22 19:24:39 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 17:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051022142448.051c2dd0@mail> References: <4359F290.722FC909@cs.ubc.ca> <20051022121015.F77551@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20051022142448.051c2dd0@mail> Message-ID: <20051022171544.Q91991@shell.lmi.net> > Exam question: what is actually measured by those numeric displays? Back when those were current technology, I used that wording with a cow- orker. He spent a few hours speculating about circuits to measure clock speed. He was really pissed when he opened the machine We set one to read "97". One of the more stupid fellows there insisted that it was almost three times as fast as the "33"s. 'course he was the same one who wanted to know whether we could add a turbo-charger to a stock 5150 PC. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Oct 22 19:37:38 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 05 00:37:38 GMT Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0510230037.AA21104@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, I have made it known in the past that I have interest in designing and building a new CPU chip implementing the VAX architecture (just as DEC would have made a new implementation of the arch from the spec, not a clone of any particular past implementation), and since I don't have the $$$ to fab a real chip, it'll be a "soft chip" in an FPGA at first. This project has been on my mind for a long time, mostly far on the back burner, but some other life circumstances have recently dragged me once again into the fun world of FPGAs and HDL coding (I'm doing a consulting job that involves lots of FPGA work), and this circumstance has brought my FPGA VAX project back closer to the front of my mind. Obviously there are tons of issues involved in a project of such ambition, and I don't want to bore you all to death talking about all of them, but the one issue that I have a difficult time solving on my own is that of FPGA tools. I'll be using Icarus to compile Verilog to EDIF. I have heard sermons from "paid professional" chip designers working on the dark side (making non-free designs with non-free tools) about how inferior it is compared to whatever non-free shit they use, but I don't care, freedom is more important to me than quality. (And I mean free as in speech, not as in beer.) The problem is of course with place & route and the actual FPGA bitstream or SOF (SRAM object file) generation. The first part of the problem is that the fucking FPGA vendors won't give us a complete description of the FPGA routing fabric and bitstream/SOF format. The second part of the problem is that even if this information were pried out or reverse- engineered, someone would still have to write an open source P&R tool, which is a *major* task - certainly not for me, designing a VAX CPU is enough work for me, I don't need the extra task of developing an FPGA P&R tool. There are only two practical choices when it comes to the actual target FPGA: A or X, which of course stand for Altera and Xilinx. I would be content with either if I could work out a usable toolchain for it that would take me from EDIF (Icarus Verilog output) to the SOF or bitstream file (A/X respective terminology). To make the long story short, there are two specific areas where I could use help from other listmembers: 1. The Xilinx option. The maintainer of Icarus Verilog only has experience with Xilinx. He uses X's proprietary P&R tools, but they are command line tools and are available for Solaris and Linux in addition to Losedows. (I still can't figure out whether the Xilinx-blessed Linux version is truly native or runs through WINE.) Icarus documentation includes a complete worked-out example of a build starting from Verilog and ending in a bitstream, feeding iverilog output (EDIF) to the command line tools from X's proprietary software. Since this might be a workable option for me, does anyone here have the Xilinx Foundation tools installed on a Solaris or Linux box on which I could get an account for work on my FPGA VAX project? 2. The Altera option. The company for which I'm currently doing the consulting project that brought me back into the FPGA world uses Altera, so I have an Altera FPGA dev board and their fucking Quartus II software. I still haven't figured out whether there is any way to use the latter without the GUI, however, and I only have the Losedows version currently and WINE isn't exactly my cup of tea. So I don't know if I'll be able to shoehorn Quartus into a backend for Icarus Verilog like the good maintainer did with Xilinx Foundation. However, one coworker tells me that he has seen an open source project that apparently reverse-engineered A's SOF format and can make an SOF from scratch using only open source tools. Needless to say, hearing that made me salivate. The problem is, however, that this guy (my coworker) does not remember the project name, much less its home page, and I have looked for it without success both on the major open source hardware sites and with Google. The feat sounds so incredible that it may just be too good to be true. My coworker said that he'll look for it on his Linux box at home. But barring that, has anyone else heard of this project? TIA for any help, MS From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Oct 22 19:44:16 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 19:44:16 -0500 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? References: <0IOQ00BECHQ006V1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net><4359C519.9030207@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <008e01c5d76a$e6a2eeb0$52406b43@66067007> Try this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; ; <"Discussion at smtp4.suscom.net:"@cnc.net> Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 12:04 AM Subject: Re: Any own an 11/725...? > At 12:50 AM -0400 10/22/05, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>I know of one person on the list who owns such a beastie, I'm curious if >>anyone else owns an 11/725 and would consider possibly selling/trading it? > > I wish! That's the one VAX of that vintage I'd actually consider owning. > Shoot, I'd love to simply find some good pictures of one! > > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Oct 22 16:52:25 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:52:25 +0000 Subject: OT: ebay seller Montana4Me? In-Reply-To: References: <20051022121015.F77551@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 22, 5 12:12:39 pm Message-ID: <20051023015135.DAOZ28424.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Reply by private email please; Anybody dealt with this guy called Montana4Me? This guy sells reasonable prices for older materials such as Pentium Pros, Xeons and other items. I have a machine that takes P Pros to play with. This guy is selling single and two 200 1M organic packages with heatsinks and straps. Cheers, Wizard From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Oct 22 21:13:20 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:13:20 -0400 Subject: Calling Mike Stein... Message-ID: <01C5D755.D5E3DF40@mse-d03> ISP's been down a few times; anyone else having trouble or waiting for a reply from me, pse try again. tnx, m ------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:14:09 -0500 From: gtulloch at shaw.ca Subject: Calling Mike Stein... Mike Stein, drop me a note, none of your email addresses work anymore :) Regards, Gord From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 21:25:17 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:25:17 -0400 Subject: Character Generator ROM data In-Reply-To: <0IOR009F4ZCYM8E3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOR009F4ZCYM8E3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <435AF48D.2090201@gmail.com> Allison wrote: >>Subject: Re: Character Generator ROM data >> From: woodelf >> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:03:04 -0600 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >>Drat I just threw out that data. Well not the ROM data but the manual >>for a video display >>that had the character set. Remember the roms used desenders so it was >>more like 8x12?. > > > I'm sure the VT100 series manuals are on line somewere. Other manuals that > have that data was the Processor Tech VDM-1. http://www.vt100.net/ Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 21:27:18 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:27:18 -0400 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: References: <200510220540.j9M5dtJd097301@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <435AF506.3000308@gmail.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Sat, 22 Oct 2005, "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > > >>I know of one person on the list who owns such a beastie, I'm curious if >>anyone else owns an 11/725 and would consider possibly selling/trading it? > > > You'll probably hate me for telling that I threw an 11/730 away less than > a year ago. > But it was in Sweden, and I doubt anyone would want to pay for the > shipping. > > But the hardware I still keep around is much more interesting... :-) Sometime in the future, I wouldn't mind trying to put an 11/782 together. Anyone know where I might be able to find some information about the interconnect hardware? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 21:30:46 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:30:46 -0400 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051022142448.051c2dd0@mail> References: <4359F290.722FC909@cs.ubc.ca> <20051022121015.F77551@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20051022142448.051c2dd0@mail> Message-ID: <435AF5D6.6070604@gmail.com> John Foust wrote: > At 02:12 PM 10/22/2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>Exam question: what is actually measured by those numeric displays? > > > The absence or presence of jumpers on the little daughterboard, > encoded as digits? One of my machines has a "Turbo" button that changes from "HI" to "LO". It does make a noticeable difference in speed. Probably inserts a bunch of NOPs in or something. Comes in handy when I'm trying to play older games. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 21:34:12 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:34:12 -0400 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435AF6A4.20105@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Hmmmm.... I find the 11/730 to be a very interesting design. It's almost > all simple PALs. Isn't the 8700/8800 mostly bitslice chips? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 21:36:30 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:36:30 -0400 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: References: <0IOQ00BECHQ006V1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <4359C519.9030207@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <435AF72E.2090206@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/22/05, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >>I know of one person on the list who owns such a beastie, I'm curious if >>anyone else owns an 11/725 and would consider possibly selling/trading it? > > > Yes, I own one; no I don't want to sell it - it's a nice compact > Unibus machine that one can get running VMS 5.0 with a little > creativity (disk/memory issues). > > It runs VMS 4.x great! > > If anyone has a spare RC25 cart or two, I wouldn't mind picking one > up... it's likely to be cheaper than a Unibus SCSI interface. ;-) Is there such a thing as a Unibus SCSI? Peace... Sridhar From gtoal at gtoal.com Sat Oct 22 22:18:35 2005 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:18:35 -0500 Subject: EMAS on 2966 (was Re: Xenix on the Acorn 32016) In-Reply-To: <200510212055.j9LKtg7J092173@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510212055.j9LKtg7J092173@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <435B010B.mail9DS11SAGX@gtoal.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Graham Toal wrote: > Now that's interesting. Having seen some of Acorn's internal source and > the way they often worked, it seemed there was a lot of "just go ahead > and do it" philosophy going on. Maybe someone mentioned 32000 Xenix in > passing and then some other programmer took it upon themselves to add > support in to the linker :) The only programmer was Mark Taunton (also Ex Edinburgh, hence why the linker was written in Imp, and also why the link format had a lot in common with that of EMAS!). I think he may still be working for ARM somewhere. I bet he'd remember. I had a listing of it because I was the only other Imp programmer there and I was helping find a storage bug that was causing link errors for some program of mine. (The listing has a few of my annotations). > Again, I'll check that I don't have it on disk when I get home in a month... It was written in Imp. I'm sure you'd remember if you'd seen it! > > The Edinburgh collection is getting quite impressive. We also have > > recovered locally written operating systems for the PDP9 and PDP15, > > two O/Ses for PDP11s, Perkin Elmer 32bit, 68000s and of course the > > big one, EMAS for ICL29XX > > That last one caught my eye, given that we have an ICL 2966 which we'd > like to (try to) get operational one day (no mean feat, given how > dismantled, rusty, and spread all to hell and back across lots of > storerooms it is at the moment!). > > Seems like there are "lots" (as in more than one :) of people/places who > know about the 1900 line, but the 29xx's seem to be largely forgotten. > Of course a complete 1900 would be nice, but I doubt there are any left > anywhere... Who is 'we' in this context? I can't imagine anyone just happening to have an ICL mainframe lying around, never mind the power to run it or the manpower to put it all back together again! (Hold on a sec... quick visit to Google... aha! so you're the curator at Bletchley Park! That explains a lot :-) Hadn't seen your Retrobeep site before! If I were still in the UK, I'd be happy to drop by with a shitload of Acorn hardware I grabbed before it headed for the dumpster) So yes, it would be fantastic to get EMAS on line again, and if your hardware works, it's definitely doable because the 2900 EMAS is the only one we actually have full binaries for! And the University has pretty complete archives on a CD jukebox where we could go fetch any binaries that we're missing. What's especially lucky is that we have a boot tape, which you're welcome to download and see how far it gets you: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/emas2/boottape/ We have several people on the history project who might be interested in a project like this; If you think you might be serious, I would encourage you to join our mailing list and tell folks what you're thinking of and ask for volunters. Some are retired; two unfortunately work in the US. I'll put together a list of the people who would be relevant to this and we can contact them individually if you decide to start up a project. I would lay odds that if you could get funding and it became obvious that it was a serious project, we could get help from Edinburgh University (EUCS which used to be called ERCC) and pull in a lot more folks than just the ones already in the History Group. We don't have binaries for either the ICL4/75 version or any of the later IBM mainframe (or NEC/Fujistsu/Hitachi clone) versions, so although emulators exist for the IBM (Hercules), there would have been a major bootstrapping problem in cross-compiling the sources to IBM binaries. And although we had ICL2900 binaries, we have no ICL2900 emulator. It never occurred to me that we might find 2900 hardware somewhere. This could be a major break for our project if you decide to run with it and the hardware can be made serviceable. Also a working system would be the perfect place to start from to write a 2900 emulator. The biggest obstacle that I can think of would be building a disk image with all the relevant files on it. We have them as individual files, not as a disk image. But we have *major* amounts of source code and even an Imp compiler, so we ought to be able to hack the disk drivers around and create a user-level program to build a disk image... Incidentally, I discovered an ICL engineer on the net today, who worked on the EMAS hardware: http://www.whiteheadm.co.uk/html/30_years_in_computing.html - I'll be dropping him an email this evening to tell him about the Edinburgh project. If you start up a 2900 project, he sounds like someone well worth speaking to. Let's talk more about this, either here or offline, or preferably on the Edinburgh group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ Regards, Graham PS Does Bletchley have any systems that can read DECtapes? We still have a few tapes in our project from the PDP9 and others which we've never read back in. Including one for an operating system called "DECsys" which I believe some of the guys on this list are desperate to see! From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 22 22:19:13 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:19:13 -0700 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: <435AF72E.2090206@gmail.com> References: <0IOQ00BECHQ006V1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <4359C519.9030207@atarimuseum.com> <435AF72E.2090206@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:36 PM -0400 10/22/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Is there such a thing as a Unibus SCSI? Sure, I've got a Viking UDT board in my PDP-11/44. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 22 22:20:51 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:20:51 -0700 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: <008e01c5d76a$e6a2eeb0$52406b43@66067007> References: <0IOQ00BECHQ006V1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net><4359C519.9030207@atarimuseum.com> <008e01c5d76a$e6a2eeb0$52406b43@66067007> Message-ID: At 7:44 PM -0500 10/22/05, Keys wrote: >Try this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAX All I see there is a VAX-11/780 picture, not a VAX-11/725. I'm not sure, but I don't believe I've ever seen anything other than a drawing of the VAX-11/725. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 22 22:27:17 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 23:27:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > All I see there is a VAX-11/780 picture, not a VAX-11/725. I'm not > sure, but I don't believe I've ever seen anything other than a > drawing of the VAX-11/725. I have only seen a few, and used one at school years ago. Painfully slow, I remember, even compared to our overworked /780 and 3600. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Oct 22 22:38:42 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:38:42 -0500 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: <435AF506.3000308@gmail.com> References: <200510220540.j9M5dtJd097301@dewey.classiccmp.org> <435AF506.3000308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510222238.42247.pat@computer-refuge.org> Sridhar Ayengar declared on Saturday 22 October 2005 09:27 pm: > Sometime in the future, I wouldn't mind trying to put an 11/782 > together. Anyone know where I might be able to find some information > about the interconnect hardware? As I've been told by the hardware designer of the dual-vax, the 11/782 was a retarded design. Basically, just a small amount of dual-ported memory stuck between two independent CPUs. The Purdue-designed dual-vax is a lot more useful machine. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Oct 22 22:46:55 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 23:46:55 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 23 Oct 2005 00:37:38 GMT." <0510230037.AA21104@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200510230346.j9N3ktAT002063@mwave.heeltoe.com> Michael Sokolov wrote: ... >There are only two practical choices when it comes to the actual target >FPGA: A or X, which of course stand for Altera and Xilinx. I would be >content with either if I could work out a usable toolchain for it that >would take me from EDIF (Icarus Verilog output) to the SOF or bitstream >file (A/X respective terminology). it's good to fight the good fight, but in the end you'll need to fit your design into either X or A's part (I'd pick X) and you'll need to use their tools to do it, which mean you'll use widows if it's something of a small/reasonable design or unix if it's bigger. I like the idea of holding out for something that will work in the PD but I'm not sure you can do that today. At some point you need to find out if your design will "fit" into a particular part and you need to use the right tool to find out. We're talking "pre-synopsis" right now, but at some point you'll have to graduate to "real tools". It's just the nature of the game. As you know, the size of your design dictates what tools you'll need to use. I'm going to guess that an entire vax dictates a certain footprint. I'm curious to see what that is, as I'm about to try and jam a CADR into several of X's parts :-) -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Oct 22 22:50:29 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 23:50:29 -0400 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 22 Oct 2005 23:27:17 EDT." Message-ID: <200510230350.j9N3oTo7002237@mwave.heeltoe.com> William Donzelli wrote: > >I have only seen a few, and used one at school years ago. Painfully slow, >I remember, even compared to our overworked /780 and 3600. I have an 11/730. The 725 was its ugly step sister. Same size I think, and same unibus. And 110VAC power :-) -brad From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Oct 22 23:42:46 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 05 04:42:46 GMT Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0510230442.AA21703@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Brad Parker wrote: > it's good to fight the good fight, but in the end you'll need to fit > your design into either X or A's part (I'd pick X) and you'll need to > use their tools to do it, which mean you'll use widows if it's something > of a small/reasonable design or unix if it's bigger. No, fortunately I won't have to use Losedows. In the absolute worst case, i.e., if I can't find a free open source solution, and I can't convince anyone to let me have a pirate copy of their Xilinx Foundation CD, I would just have to fork over some $$$ for a legal copy of the full version and order one for, say, Solaris instead of Losedows and get a used SS5 just to run it. Still better than descending to Losedows. Or if I go the Altera route, I may be able to get a version of A's fucking Quartus for Linux/x86 through the company I currently consult for, and then pirate it. (I don't see how one can effectively enforce copyprotection under Linux.) > I like the idea of holding out for something that will work in the PD > but I'm not sure you can do that today. What we need to find out is whether that reverse-engineered project to generate Altera SOFs by open source means that my coworker told me about really exists or if he was hallucinating. This question was the main point of my original post and it still stands. > At some point you need to find > out if your design will "fit" into a particular part and you need to use > the right tool to find out. If the project I referred to in the previous paragraph exists, it would be the right tool. > We're talking "pre-synopsis" right now, but at some point you'll have to > graduate to "real tools". The REAL tools are the free-as-in-speech open source ones. > As you know, the size of your design dictates what tools you'll need to use. I don't see what does size have to do with it. If a tool can compile a traffic controller, it can compile a full CISC CPU. > I'm going to guess that an entire vax dictates a certain footprint. Aside from the issue of tools, the FPGA that seems to have the closest size and feature set to the needs of my current VAX project is the Cyclone II family from A. MS From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sun Oct 23 00:32:30 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:32:30 -0700 Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <000901c5d793$390e73e0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> I reverse engineered some Altera PLDs (EP600 and EP900) around 1990 and that took a few weeks. I knew some folks at NeoCad that reverse engineered the Xilinx family and made better design tools than Xilinx. They got no help at all from Xilinx. After competing with NeoCad for a few years Xilinx bought them in 1995 and used the NeoCad tools. The parts today are much larger than they were in 1995 and it took a large group to reverse engineer the parts then. Another problem is that Xilinx keeps developing new devices so you have a moving target. Xilinx has a free version (ISE WebPACK) that supports the smaller FPGAs on Windows and Red Hat Linux. The scope of the problem and the availability of free software is going to make it difficult to get enough people to tackle the problem. It happened before but they sold out for the big bucks. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From spc at conman.org Sun Oct 23 01:21:21 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 02:21:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510230442.AA21703@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Oct 23, 2005 04:42:46 AM Message-ID: <20051023062121.16E6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Michael Sokolov once stated: > > Brad Parker wrote: > > > As you know, the size of your design dictates what tools you'll need to use. > > I don't see what does size have to do with it. If a tool can compile a > traffic controller, it can compile a full CISC CPU. But how long would it take? Just this past week, I came across an old program I wrote in the early 90s that would calculate maps of a particular pair of functions my boss [1] was interested in [3]. This particular program took about a year to finish the data sets on an SGI Personal Iris 4D-35 (33Mhz MIPS system)---each data set took around 10 to 11 hours to generate (and there were *a lot* of data sets). Just on a lark, I took the code and tweaked it a bit (to run only 1/500th of one dataset) to see how long it would take now, over a decade later. On my 500MHz station at work, each dataset would take 2 hours, and an entire run (which took the better part of a year when I did it lo' these many years ago) would take 41 days to complete. I then did it on a quad-Pentium 2.4GHz machine we have at work and the results were ... um ... humbling: 45 *hours* to do an entire run. Two days. For something that took about a year a decade ago [4] (and the entire run only covered about 1/4 of the potential space the equations cover). -spc (And that's on a single machine mind you ... ) [1] Ph.D. in psychology, working out of the Math Department at the university I attended [2]. I worked for him for four to five years, managing his computers (all two of them) and writing the occational program. Sweet gig and so far, was my favorite job I've had yet. [2] Florida Atlantic University [3] The equations are: x' = ((A * y) + B) * x * (1.0 - x) y' = ((C * x) + D) * y * (1.0 - y) Repeat for N times and plot the results. It's a chaotic system and would either settle down into a strange attractor or never settle down at all. The values A, B, C and D had a certain range, and if tweaked, would produce a different picture. I forgot what the equations actually stood for (something to do with neurphysiology or something like that), but then again, I never understood about half of what my boss was saying anyway. [4] Once I got all the datasets, I then spent the better part of a week making a image from each data set, then recording each image to a VCR hooked up to the SGI (had a $8k board on the machine that could control a VCR, only we lacked editing software), then taking the tape and re-editing it on actual video editing equipment to make a smooth running film. Interesting for about the first 40 frames, then a dull monotony for the rest of the week. From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Oct 23 01:27:44 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 08:27:44 +0200 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510230037.AA21104@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <1F2F3D78-438E-11DA-9568-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Am zondag, 23.10.05, um 02:37 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Michael Sokolov: > Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, > > I'll be using Icarus to compile Verilog to EDIF. I have heard sermons > from "paid professional" chip designers working on the dark side > (making > non-free designs with non-free tools) about how inferior it is compared > to whatever non-free shit they use, but I don't care, freedom is more > important to me than quality. (And I mean free as in speech, not as in > beer.) > While not directly targetting X or A, a rather good set of freeware tools for VLSI development is available at : http://www-asim.lip6.fr/recherche/alliance/ Jos From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Wed Oct 19 16:20:16 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:20:16 -0500 Subject: Message for Jay West Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F1053906E@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Hi Everyone, I've been trying to give Jay a link to my PDP11 board, but haven't heard back from him. When I spoke to him in person, he asked I resend him the link, and I have several times and haven't heard back so I figured my mail was getting filtered. Anyway, sorry to spam the list with this, but I couldn't think of any other way to get ahold of him. Jay, that address is http://pdpusers.dyndns.org - title is "PDP-11 User Community" (as I'll be working to get more than just a message board up on it soon) Sorry everyone. Thanks Jay! Julian From mjd.NO.bishop.SPAM at iee.org Fri Oct 21 10:39:43 2005 From: mjd.NO.bishop.SPAM at iee.org (Martin Bishop) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:39:43 +0100 Subject: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: QUOTE The 8/A cannot have an EAE UNQUOTE Don't think this is correct. Because, such a machine would have no serious (integer) arithmetic capability. Also, the PDP 8/A Minicomputer Handbook 1976/77 has a lengthy section [pp9-56 .. 9-65] on the KE8-E (Extended Arithmetic Element : EAE). However, the "PDP-8 Summary of Models and Options" (posted by Doug Jones) indicates that the EAE can be fitted iff the PDP-8/E CPU boardset is fitted. That is PDP-8/A models 600/620 were fitted with the KK8E CPU and optionally the 8/E EAE. And, I imagine "field specials" were doubtless built. Another wrinkle; correction invited. Martin -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: 21 October 2005 12:00 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) << snip >> Yes, as far as software is concerned, most everything written for an 8/I or 8/E will also run on an 8/A. << snip >> However, the 8/E and 8/A are *very* similar. In fact, some 8/A systems had the KK8E CPU in them. Things that are incompatible, as far as I can remember offhand right now: BSW instruction exists only on 8/E and 8/A. MQ register exists always on 8/E and 8/A, but only exists on 8/I if you have EAE. <<<>>> The 8/A cannot have an EAE. <<<>>> The EAE of the 8/E can run in two modes, where one is compatible with the EAE of the 8/I. If you execute a RAR RAL, you'll get different results depending on CPU. I don't remember exactly what the 8/I does, but the 8/E will load the AC with the PC for the high five bits, while the low seven will be fixed (can't remember the exact value). The 8/A will load the AC with the PC. << snip >> From dwight at ca2h0430.amd.com Fri Oct 21 11:25:46 2005 From: dwight at ca2h0430.amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replacing Old LEDs Message-ID: <200510211625.JAA22565@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi You shouldn't plug a LED into a curcuit backwards that can supply more than about 8 volts someplace. LED's zener at about 8 to 10 volts and the power dissipated is much higher when it zeners, even with a limiting resistor. If you get the RS ones that are individually wrapped, they usually have the polarity marked on the back of the package. You should be able to check the polarity with a meter by measuring the voltage from the unit. Just match the polarities. Dwight >From: "Bradley Slavik" > >I believe that all these LEDs are on ISA or EISA cards, circa 1987. > >Let me be more specific now that I have gone to radio shack. > >In 5mm red LEDs they have > >12volt, 2.6v, 1.8v > >Here are web pages: > >http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=276-2 >09 >? > >5mm Red LED >$1.29 ?????Brand: RadioShack >Catalog #: 276-209 ?????Model: 276-209 > > >Availability On-line: In-stock In Store: Check availability >Phone: In-stock 1-800-THE-SHACK (1-800-843-7422) >(Pricing and availability may vary outside the contiguous 48 United States.) >Typical MCD is 1.5. Typical wavelength is 697mm. Size is T-1-3/4 or 5mm. Red >lens color. Viewing angle is 36?. 10mA (max). Typical Voltage is 2.0, with a >maximum voltage of 12.0V. Comes as package of 1. > >http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=276-0 >41 > >5mm Red LED >$1.29 ?????Brand: RadioShack >Catalog #: 276-041 ?????Model: 276-041 > > >Availability On-line: In-stock In Store: Check availability >Phone: In-stock 1-800-THE-SHACK (1-800-843-7422) >(Pricing and availability may vary outside the contiguous 48 United States.) >Typical MCD is 10. Typical wavelength is 700mm. Size is T1 3/4 or 5mm. Red >lens color. Viewing angle is 30?. Current is 28mA (max). Typical Voltage is >2.25, with a maximum voltage of 2.6V. Comes as package of 2. > >276-330 which is 1.8v does not seem to have web page available. > >Should I just put in the 12v one? And turn around if I get it wrong? or >use jumpers to test it before soldering? > >Bradley > > > From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Fri Oct 21 15:18:27 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:18:27 -0400 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051021155012.3df71070@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200510212028.j9LKSN99010258@keith.ezwind.net> Anyone who has sold DK anything knows who DK is. My question is who is SueT(he)Bandit ? Whose collection is/was this ? And how deep does it go ? Bob From dwight at ca2h0430.amd.com Fri Oct 21 15:33:55 2005 From: dwight at ca2h0430.amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replacing Old LEDs (Bradley Slavik) Message-ID: <200510212033.NAA29766@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Barry Watzman" > >Excluding odd LEDs (like your 12 volt model which, again, is probably a >low-voltage LED with the resistor built-in probably for automotive use), any >LED will work, although different ones will vary in brightness and power >consumption (if power consumption matters .... usually it does not). If you >get it backwards, it won't light, but no harm will be done. > Hi Barry This is not really true. If driven from a 5 volt source, you are right, no damage. I once had to replace a number of LEDs that failed because of being reversed for part of the time. These were a simple connection to a 12vac line with a current limit resistor. They would light OK at first but degrade over about a week. I placed a diode across the LED to bypass the back voltage and there were no more failures. They tend to zener at around 10 volts someplace and are not happy being zeners. The power dissipated was small but there was some other effect of them acting a zeners that degraded them. Dwight From mjd.NO.bishop.SPAM at iee.org Fri Oct 21 15:42:13 2005 From: mjd.NO.bishop.SPAM at iee.org (Martin Bishop) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:42:13 +0100 Subject: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) Message-ID: QUOTE The 8/A cannot have an EAE UNQUOTE Don't think this is correct. Because, such a machine would have no serious (integer) arithmetic capability. Also, the PDP 8/A Minicomputer Handbook 1976/77 has a lengthy section [pp9-56 .. 9-65] on the KE8-E (Extended Arithmetic Element : EAE). However, the "PDP-8 Summary of Models and Options" (posted by Doug Jones) indicates that the EAE can be fitted iff the PDP-8/E CPU boardset is fitted. That is PDP-8/A models 600/620 were fitted with the KK8E CPU and optionally the 8/E EAE. And, I imagine "field specials" were doubtless built. Another wrinkle; correction invited. Martin -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: 21 October 2005 12:00 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) << snip >> Yes, as far as software is concerned, most everything written for an 8/I or 8/E will also run on an 8/A. << snip >> However, the 8/E and 8/A are *very* similar. In fact, some 8/A systems had the KK8E CPU in them. Things that are incompatible, as far as I can remember offhand right now: BSW instruction exists only on 8/E and 8/A. MQ register exists always on 8/E and 8/A, but only exists on 8/I if you have EAE. <<<>>> The 8/A cannot have an EAE. <<<>>> The EAE of the 8/E can run in two modes, where one is compatible with the EAE of the 8/I. If you execute a RAR RAL, you'll get different results depending on CPU. I don't remember exactly what the 8/I does, but the 8/E will load the AC with the PC for the high five bits, while the low seven will be fixed (can't remember the exact value). The 8/A will load the AC with the PC. << snip >> From RHILL at bountifulutah.gov Fri Oct 21 16:49:07 2005 From: RHILL at bountifulutah.gov (Ralph Hill) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:49:07 -0600 Subject: IBM 5110&In-Reply-To= Message-ID: I have an old 5110 and 5120 system, also. Did you find any interested buyers? Please let me know. Thanks so much. Ralph Hill From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Oct 21 21:07:44 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:07:44 -0400 Subject: Houston 595/695 Plotter manual Message-ID: <01C5D68C.12B8E5C0@MSE_D03> Anybody need/want a manual for one of these? mike From boblafleur at comcast.net Sat Oct 22 08:14:49 2005 From: boblafleur at comcast.net (Bob Lafleur) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:14:49 -0400 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <4359F290.722FC909@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200510221321.j9MDLtW5025728@keith.ezwind.net> > We have to get way more sophisticated about this: It needs to have a cool blue LED to indicate when current is flowing. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Oct 23 00:10:19 2005 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:10:19 -0700 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435B1B3B.7010302@mindspring.com> William Donzelli wrote: >>All I see there is a VAX-11/780 picture, not a VAX-11/725. I'm not >>sure, but I don't believe I've ever seen anything other than a >>drawing of the VAX-11/725. >> >> >I have only seen a few, and used one at school years ago. Painfully slow, >I remember, even compared to our overworked /780 and 3600. > The VAX-11/725 was a repackaged version of the VAX-11/730 (smaller box for OEM usage). 11/725 and 11/730 were the same board set, so performance was the same, ~1/3 that of an 11/780. Ok for a single user, not too spiffy otherwise otherwise. The machine was implemented with lots of first generation 20pin PALs (which just came to market in the late 70s), and 2901 bit slices for the main datapath. The '730 was heavily microcoded in a narrow word (24~32b wide, 16K deep IIRC) style compared to the existing 11/780 (96b wide microword, 1K-2K deep). From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Oct 23 00:50:09 2005 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:50:09 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS SCSI was Re: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: References: <0IOQ00BECHQ006V1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <4359C519.9030207@atarimuseum.com> <435AF72E.2090206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <435B2491.1080601@mindspring.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:36 PM -0400 10/22/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Is there such a thing as a Unibus SCSI? > > > Sure, I've got a Viking UDT board in my PDP-11/44. > > Zane And I have an Emulex UC17 (single MSCP or TMSCP SCSI-2 interface) in my 11/34, and an Emulex UC18 (dual MSCP and/or TMSCP SCSI-2 interface) in my 11/44. Each is a quad SPC unibus board (actually the UC17 is a half populated UC18). Both have DEC CDROMs (RRD43s) and Seagate ST32550N (2.1GB 3.5"HH) drives. S/W development was done under SIMH, then the .dsk image burned to a CDROM, taken over to the PDP-11 and booted directly from CD (I also now run XXDP via CDROM as well). Just got the real 11/44 fully configured (1*DZ11, 1*UC18, 1*DEUNA, 1MB memory) and able to boot 2.11BSD and get all the way out to the internet (see below). My only complaint about UNIBUS SCSI is it seems to border on unobtanium and thus commands high $$ when found. >>> >>>b du0 (Program) 44Boot from ra(0,0,0) at 0172150 : : ra(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=02400 bootcsr=0172150 2.11 BSD UNIX #10: Fri Jun 9 02:08:10 PDT 1995 root at curly.2bsd.com:/usr/src/sys/ZEKE ra0: Ver 6 mod 6 ra0: RA81 size=4165162 attaching de0 csr 174510 attaching lo0 phys mem = 1048576 avail mem = 686336 user mem = 307200 October 22 22:18:55 init: configure system dz 0 csr 160100 vector 300 attached ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 vectorset attached erase, kill ^U, intr ^C # Fast boot ... skipping disk checks checking quotas: done. Assuming NETWORKING system ... add host zeke: gateway localhost add net default: gateway 192.168.1.1 starting system logger checking for core dump... Oct 22 22:19:43 zeke vmunix: ra0: Ver 6 mod 6 Oct 22 22:19:43 zeke vmunix: ra0: RA81 size=4165162 preserving editor files clearing /tmp standard daemons: update cron accounting. starting network daemons: inetd rwhod printer. starting local daemons: sendmail. Oct 22 22:20:05 zeke October 22 22:20:05 init: kernel security level changed from 0 to 1 2.11 BSD UNIX (zeke) (console) login: root Password: erase, kill ^U, intr ^C # netstat -r Routing tables Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Interface localhost localhost UH 0 0 lo0 192.168.1.19 localhost UH 0 0 lo0 default 192.168.1.1 UG 3 25 de0 192.168.1 192.168.1.19 U 1 6 de0 # # # ps axl F S UID PID PPID CPU PRI NICE ADDR SZ WCHAN TTY TIME COMMAND 3 S 0 0 0 2 0 0 4320 8 runout ? 0:03 swapper 201 S 0 1 0 20 30 0 13034 37 proc ? 0:03 (init) 201 S 0 55 1 0 40 0 22100 11 u ? 0:00 update 201 S 0 58 1 0 26 0 22734 51 selwait ? 0:01 cron 201 S 0 62 1 0 26 -1 31306 26 msgbuf ? 0:00 acctd 201 S 0 70 1 46 26 0 21237 39 selwait ? 0:02 /usr/sbin/inet 201 S 0 74 1 0 26 0 24343 27 proc ? 0:00 rwhod 200 S 0 78 1 16 26 0 136 47 selwait ? 0:00 /usr/sbin/lpd 201 S 0 96 1 0 26 0 14724 71 tracebu ? 0:00 /usr/sbin/send 201 S 0 102 1 0 26 -10 21006 47 selwait ? 0:01 ntpd 201 S 0 105 1 8 28 0 13764 27 dz_tty ? 0:00 - std.9600 tty 201 S 0 106 1 4 28 0 14322 27 dz_tty ? 0:00 - std.9600 tty 201 S 0 107 1 3 28 0 15177 27 dz_tty ? 0:00 - std.9600 tty 201 S 0 108 1 1 28 0 14445 27 dz_tty ? 0:00 - std.9600 tty 201 S 0 109 1 4 28 0 15622 27 dz_tty ? 0:00 - std.9600 tty 200 S 0 110 1 3 28 0 2446 27 dz_tty ? 0:00 - std.9600 tty 200 S 0 111 1 2 28 0 2346 27 dz_tty ? 0:00 - std.9600 tty 200 S 0 112 1 2 28 0 310 27 dz_tty ? 0:00 - std.9600 tty 201 S 0 45 1 0 26 0 20444 58 selwait co 0:02 syslogd 201 S 0 104 1 0 30 0 13666 19 proc co 0:03 -sh 1 R 0 120 104 31 51 0 21104 59 co 0:01 ps axl # # ping www.apple.com PING www.apple.com.akadns.net (17.112.152.32): 56 data bytes 64 bytes from 17.112.152.32: icmp_seq=0 ttl=53 time=50.001 ms 64 bytes from 17.112.152.32: icmp_seq=1 ttl=53 time=33.334 ms 64 bytes from 17.112.152.32: icmp_seq=2 ttl=53 time=33.334 ms 64 bytes from 17.112.152.32: icmp_seq=3 ttl=53 time=50.001 ms 64 bytes from 17.112.152.32: icmp_seq=4 ttl=53 time=33.334 ms 64 bytes from 17.112.152.32: icmp_seq=5 ttl=53 time=33.334 ms ^C --- www.apple.com.akadns.net ping statistics --- 6 packets transmitted, 6 packets received, 0% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max = 33.334/0/50.001 ms # ^D 2.11 BSD UNIX (zeke) (console) login: From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 23 01:47:55 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 23:47:55 -0700 Subject: Character Generator ROM data In-Reply-To: <20051022120408.N77551@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.2.1.1.1.20051021213654.028baf90@wilma.widomaker.com> <20051022120408.N77551@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510222347550850.0E4A924A@10.0.0.252> Sometimes it's funny what you have hanging around. I discovered that I still had the font diskette for a Hercules Graphics Card Plus monochrome adapter (the card itself is installed somehere around here). For those unfamiliar with this beast, it was basically a Hercules monochrome card with a RAM in addition to a ROM for font generation. Anyway, I zipped the fonts up and sent them on to Mr. Swiger. I also discovered that I have a set of 3 ROMs from a Fujitsu monochrome terminal with an EBCDIC character set. Don't know what those are good for. Cheers, Chuck From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Sun Oct 23 06:01:14 2005 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 07:01:14 -0400 Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: References: <002701c5d6e9$567a3220$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20051023065858.01c15e58@pop.cogeco.ca> At 04:40 PM 10/22/2005, you wrote: > > For the web enabled amongst us, there is a good UK based vintage > radio forum > > at: > > > > http://www.vintage-radio.net > > > > (but I don't want to kick off the whole mailing list / web forum thing > > again........) > >DOes anyone know of a reasonable vintage tape recorder (and/or VCR) list >or forum? It's not really vintage radio (which seems to deal mostly with >AM broadcast-band sets), it's not vintage hi-fi. I am thinking of the >1950's and 1960's Philips, Grundig, etc reel-to-reel machines, >real-to-real video recorders, N1500, V2000 etc VCRs and the like). Or am >I the only person in thw world who fiddles with such machines? > >-tony >k Are you aware of this one? http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/vintagge-audio Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. 519-254-4991 N8Y 3J8 Camcorder Kindergarten, chasfoxvideo.com From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Oct 23 06:25:40 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:25:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: <20051022191406.646241c1.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <002701c5d6e9$567a3220$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20051022191406.646241c1.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <21559.195.212.29.75.1130066740.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:40:30 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> > For the web enabled amongst us, there is a good UK based vintage radio >> forum >> > at: >> > >> > http://www.vintage-radio.net >> > >> > (but I don't want to kick off the whole mailing list / web forum thing >> > again........) >> >> DOes anyone know of a reasonable vintage tape recorder (and/or VCR) list >> or forum? It's not really vintage radio (which seems to deal mostly with >> AM broadcast-band sets), it's not vintage hi-fi. I am thinking of the >> 1950's and 1960's Philips, Grundig, etc reel-to-reel machines, >> real-to-real video recorders, N1500, V2000 etc VCRs and the like). Or am >> I the only person in thw world who fiddles with such machines? >> > > You're not alone. And I do need a supplier for belts and what-not. > > And tape, even. I've got a huge pile of N1500 tapes, a probably-mostly-working N1700 and most of an N1500 sitting in storage. I have no idea whether it is in any kind of usable condition, because it may have got damp in the utterly vile weather we had earlier this year (130mph winds kept me from repairing the roof for a week or so). I can get it as far as Glasgow. If you pay some of the petrol I'll take it further south. Gordon. From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Sun Oct 23 06:28:41 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:28:41 +1300 Subject: OT: Tube Audio References: <002701c5d6e9$567a3220$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20051022191406.646241c1.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <056d01c5d7c4$eb92de80$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Try these http://www.palsite.com/ http://s.webring.com/hub?ring=betamax http://www.colin99.co.uk/beta.html I've found these sites very useful. DaveB, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Stevens" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 1:14 PM Subject: Re: OT: Tube Audio > On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:40:30 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> > For the web enabled amongst us, there is a good UK based vintage >> > radio forum >> > at: >> > >> > http://www.vintage-radio.net >> > >> > (but I don't want to kick off the whole mailing list / web forum >> > thing >> > again........) >> >> DOes anyone know of a reasonable vintage tape recorder (and/or VCR) >> list >> or forum? It's not really vintage radio (which seems to deal mostly >> with >> AM broadcast-band sets), it's not vintage hi-fi. I am thinking of >> the >> 1950's and 1960's Philips, Grundig, etc reel-to-reel machines, >> real-to-real video recorders, N1500, V2000 etc VCRs and the like). >> Or am >> I the only person in thw world who fiddles with such machines? >> > > You're not alone. And I do need a supplier for belts and what-not. > > And tape, even. > > -- > http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/146 - Release Date: > 21/10/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/146 - Release Date: 21/10/2005 From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Oct 23 07:37:00 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 13:37:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <435AF5D6.6070604@gmail.com> References: <4359F290.722FC909@cs.ubc.ca> <20051022121015.F77551@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20051022142448.051c2dd0@mail> <435AF5D6.6070604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <12610.195.212.29.75.1130071020.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > John Foust wrote: >> At 02:12 PM 10/22/2005, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>>Exam question: what is actually measured by those numeric displays? >> >> >> The absence or presence of jumpers on the little daughterboard, >> encoded as digits? > > One of my machines has a "Turbo" button that changes from "HI" to "LO". > It does make a noticeable difference in speed. Probably inserts a > bunch of NOPs in or something. Comes in handy when I'm trying to play > older games. On older machines it did actually change the clock speed. Gordon. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Oct 23 10:52:06 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 05 15:52:06 GMT Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0510231552.AA22369@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Jos Dreesen wrote: > While not directly targetting X or A, a rather good set of > freeware tools for VLSI development is available at : > > > http://www-asim.lip6.fr/recherche/alliance/ I'm well aware of Alliance and it's awesome, but it's for ASICs rather than FPGAs. The interesting question is whether the P&R function from Alliance could be ported to an FPGA. Suppose we found an FPGA for which we have a complete definition of the routing fabric and configuration image format, or obtained this information for some common commercial FPGA through someone with the right connections or through reverse engineering. We would still need a P&R tool, which is a very major task. I wonder if the P&R function from Alliance could be adapted to the task. But I don't know any of the fundamental theory behind P&R in ASICs versus FPGAs to know whether this could be done or if it's a totally different problem. Now if we only had the bucks to fab a real chip instead of screwing with FPGAs... Then we could use Alliance and go completely open source from start to finish. Does anyone know how much does it cost to fab a chip? MS From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sun Oct 23 11:15:09 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:15:09 -0700 Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <000f01c5d7ec$f7632210$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Answering my own post: > all from Xilinx. After competing with NeoCad for a few years Xilinx bought > them in 1995 and used the NeoCad tools. I looked up some more facts. NeoCad was founded in November 1991 and had about 50 employees when it was sold to Xilinx in March 1995 for $35 million. The large FPGAs back then were pushing 10,000 gates. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 11:49:09 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 05:49:09 +1300 Subject: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/22/05, Martin Bishop wrote: > QUOTE The 8/A cannot have an EAE UNQUOTE > > Don't think this is correct. Because, such a machine would have no serious > (integer) arithmetic capability. The -8/a wasn't always sold to the same crowd as the -8/e. Lots of -8/as were used for WPS/8 (the "DataSystems 310" package, for example). Never doubt that Marketing is capable of selling systems that aren't "serious". In any case, not everybody needs an EAE - I myself have been using PDP-8s for 23 years, and with the sole exception of wanting to put together a 12-bit SPACEWAR machine, have never come close to needing an EAE. There was an FPP-12 for the KK8A, but they were expensive (by PDP-8 standards) and rare (and not software compatible with the KE8E). If you _really_ needed to boost FORTRAN performance, you had that option, but to my recollection, it wasn't an ordinary add-on. > Also, the PDP 8/A Minicomputer Handbook > 1976/77 has a lengthy section [pp9-56 .. 9-65] on the KE8-E (Extended > Arithmetic Element : EAE). However, the "PDP-8 Summary of Models and > Options" (posted by Doug Jones) indicates that the EAE can be fitted iff the > PDP-8/E CPU boardset is fitted. That is PDP-8/A models 600/620 were fitted > with the KK8E CPU and optionally the 8/E EAE. And, I imagine "field > specials" were doubtless built. > > Another wrinkle; correction invited. OK... to be pedantically specific... the KK8A CPU cannot have an EAE. It's a single hex card with no "over the top" fingers to attach an EAE to. I can't speak for the original poster, but frequently, folks conceptually lump together the box name "PDP-8/a" with the most common (of its day) CPU "KK8A" and thus the original statement is seen from time to time. -ethan From stevew at ka6s.com Sun Oct 23 11:48:31 2005 From: stevew at ka6s.com (stevew) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:48:31 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 26, Issue 69 In-Reply-To: <200510230637.j9N6bAnM007720@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510230637.j9N6bAnM007720@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200510230948.31921.stevew@ka6s.com> On Saturday 22 October 2005 11:37 pm, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) >Subject: FPGA VAX update >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: <0510230037.AA21104 at ivan.Harhan.ORG> >Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, Stuff deleted - >I'll be using Icarus to compile Verilog to EDIF. I have heard sermons >from "paid professional" chip designers working on the dark side (making >non-free designs with non-free tools) about how inferior it is compared >to whatever non-free shit they use, but I don't care, freedom is more >important to me than quality. (And I mean free as in speech, not as in >beer.) Michael, First of all - I love Icarus (I must - I organized and wrote the test suite for it ;-) and I use it for module level stuff at home before I import to the professional tools BUT there is another option for simulation. There is a program called Veritakwin running on Windows that is $50 and is many times faster (4-5X) than Icarus. It is a windowed environment and has a built in wave-form viewer. Think Mentor modelsim like. You might think about it as a verilog too. The implementation is more complete than Icarus and also faster. >The problem is of course with place & route and the actual FPGA bitstream >or SOF (SRAM object file) generation. The first part of the problem is >that the fucking FPGA vendors won't give us a complete description of >the FPGA routing fabric and bitstream/SOF format. The second part of >the problem is that even if this information were pried out or reverse- >engineered, someone would still have to write an open source P&R tool, >which is a *major* task - certainly not for me, designing a VAX CPU is >enough work for me, I don't need the extra task of developing an FPGA >P&R tool. There are only two practical choices when it comes to the actual target FPGA: A or X, which of course stand for Altera and Xilinx. I would be content with either if I could work out a usable toolchain for it that would take me from EDIF (Icarus Verilog output) to the SOF or bitstream file (A/X respective terminology). To make the long story short, there are two specific areas where I could use help from other listmembers: >1. The Xilinx option. The maintainer of Icarus Verilog only has >experience with Xilinx. He uses X's proprietary P&R tools, but they are >command line tools and are available for Solaris and Linux in addition >to Losedows. (I still can't figure out whether the Xilinx-blessed Linux >version is truly native or runs through WINE.) Icarus documentation >includes a complete worked-out example of a build starting from Verilog >and ending in a bitstream, feeding iverilog output (EDIF) to the command >line tools from X's proprietary software. First - Steve Williams uses this path on a daily basis for his day job, so it is a proven path. Second - the Xilinx tool is running native on Linux but is a bit flakey for 6.0. What I don't understand is - Why not use the Synthesis tool in Webpack as well? Why even BOTHER with Icarus for this part of the tool chain? It isn't as good as Synplify - but it DOES work most of the time?????? >Since this might be a workable option for me, does anyone here have the >Xilinx Foundation tools installed on a Solaris or Linux box on which I >could get an account for work on my FPGA VAX project? The Windows version is faster than the Solaris version. I believe the lInux version is faster than either...though that is from a very faulty memory. If I were setting up for a private (home) project with FPGAs today I would choose Veritakwin and Webpack as my tool chain. I get MUCH faster simulations, and a working synthesis/P&R tool in Webpack. (I've really never figured out why Steve bothered to do the Synthesis tool beyond the challenge of it...maybe that's the answer..) Good luck with your project. Steve Wilson (Professional Verilog slinger) From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sun Oct 23 12:01:27 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:01:27 +0100 Subject: OT: Tube Audio References: Message-ID: <001701c5d7f3$68f8fca0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> > > For the web enabled amongst us, there is a good UK based vintage radio forum > > at: > > > > http://www.vintage-radio.net > > > > (but I don't want to kick off the whole mailing list / web forum thing > > again........) > > DOes anyone know of a reasonable vintage tape recorder (and/or VCR) list > or forum? It's not really vintage radio (which seems to deal mostly with > AM broadcast-band sets), it's not vintage hi-fi. I am thinking of the > 1950's and 1960's Philips, Grundig, etc reel-to-reel machines, > real-to-real video recorders, N1500, V2000 etc VCRs and the like). Or am > I the only person in thw world who fiddles with such machines? > > -tony > k > Tony, there is a vintage recorder section, with a number of very knowledgable users on the forum listed above. Jim. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Oct 23 12:11:53 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 05 17:11:53 GMT Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 26, Issue 69 Message-ID: <0510231711.AA22552@ivan.Harhan.ORG> stevew wrote: > There is a program called Veritakwin running on Windows that is $50 and is > many times faster (4-5X) than Icarus. If it's for Winblows, why are you even telling me about it? It is illegal to bring a Winblows machine across the threshold of my house. > It is a windowed environment and has a built in wave-form viewer. I don't want a windowed environment or a waveform viewer, I want to do all my development from an ASR33! That's why I love Icarus Verilog, it is 100% command line. Although unfortunately it wants "modern UNIX" and won't build under 4.3BSD (written in C++ for a start), since it's command line I can have it running on my Linux box and use it from my main development VAX via rsh. > Second - the Xilinx tool is running native on Linux but is a bit flakey for > 6.0. OK, that's good to know. > What I don't understand is - Why not use the Synthesis tool in Webpack as > well? Why even BOTHER with Icarus for this part of the tool chain? Because I want to, for religious reasons. > It isn't as good as Synplify - but it DOES work most of the time?????? I don't want a good tool, I want a free one (free as in speech). Freedom is more important than quality to me. I'll gladly settle for a design that requires a 10 times larger FPGA than necessary and has a 10 times lower maximum clock speed if it can be done with free-as-in-speech tools. > Good luck with your project. > > Steve Wilson (Professional Verilog slinger) Thanks, MS, religious zealot, evangelist of Free Software and command line environment. From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sun Oct 23 12:29:25 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:29:25 +0100 Subject: early embedded microprocs, was Re: OT: Tube Audio References: Message-ID: <002001c5d7f7$50d41f20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> > > Actually it might be nice to build a list of such 70's era products that > > (non-obviously) contain embedded microprocessors. > > There was a TNS1000 microcontroller that had been masked-programmed to > play 1 of about 20 different tunes. In the mid 1970s there was a rash of > doorbells using that chip, both as commercial items and as magazine > projects. At least one of the latter was called the 'Microchime' from > what I remmeber. > > -tony > My Father and I built one froma kit - "Chromachime", I think it was called. Different tunes for the front and back door as well! The one we built is still working in my parents house, after 25 years or so. Jim. From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Oct 23 09:08:15 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:08:15 +0000 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <12610.195.212.29.75.1130071020.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> References: <435AF5D6.6070604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051023180723.UPFJ21470.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > > > One of my machines has a "Turbo" button that changes from "HI" to "LO". > > It does make a noticeable difference in speed. Probably inserts a > > bunch of NOPs in or something. Comes in handy when I'm trying to play > > older games. > > On older machines it did actually change the clock speed. > > Gordon. Yes, done with two ways in hardware: Oscillator output or crystal divide by n usually found on decent boards or select either high or low frequency oscillators or crystals (on cheapo boards). Cheers, Wizard From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 23 13:08:55 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:08:55 -0600 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510231552.AA22369@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0510231552.AA22369@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <435BD1B7.4050108@jetnet.ab.ca> Michael Sokolov wrote: >The interesting question is whether the P&R function from Alliance could >be ported to an FPGA. Suppose we found an FPGA for which we have a >complete definition of the routing fabric and configuration image format, >or obtained this information for some common commercial FPGA through >someone with the right connections or through reverse engineering. We >would still need a P&R tool, which is a very major task. I wonder if >the P&R function from Alliance could be adapted to the task. But I don't >know any of the fundamental theory behind P&R in ASICs versus FPGAs to >know whether this could be done or if it's a totally different problem. > >Now if we only had the bucks to fab a real chip instead of screwing with >FPGAs... Then we could use Alliance and go completely open source from >start to finish. Does anyone know how much does it cost to fab a chip? > > > I think fab a real chip would be a better idea -- but then how many people want a vax? Ok, I don't . Looking at a different post the vax has large microcode, so a FPGA that can have internal ram be configured as micro-code tables would be handy. Also some extra ram for your register file too. >MS > > No but they do here: http://www.mosis.org/Orders/Prices/price-list-domestic.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 23 13:21:24 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:21:24 -0600 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <20051023062121.16E6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051023062121.16E6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <435BD4A4.4090900@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > On my 500MHz station at work, each dataset would take 2 hours, and an >entire run (which took the better part of a year when I did it lo' these >many years ago) would take 41 days to complete. I then did it on a >quad-Pentium 2.4GHz machine we have at work and the results were ... um ... >humbling: 45 *hours* to do an entire run. > > > Well I just upgraded to a faster PC, with XP. I have been using a CUPL compiler for CPLD's and newer is not allways better. Sure my designs now compile faster -- a few seconds but GUI interface crashes more often so is it better? With what FPGA work I have done in the past , you only get about 80% of the resources in a FPGA, after that you have long compile times, problems with pin locking and sensitivity to logic design, Ben alias woodelf From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Oct 23 13:43:03 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:43:03 -0400 Subject: Character Generator ROM data References: <0IOQ00188PGXSMY1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <20051021223603.A94874@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <17243.55735.213519.123336@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "cswiger" == cswiger writes: cswiger> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: >> > > From: Chuck Swiger >I'm looking for a >> downloadable rom image for something like in old video >> >> Is simple. Find a pattern you like in row or colum scan and >> convert the bit pattern to a string of hex values and cook an >> Eprom/EEPROM. >> cswiger> Ok - Just probing for any existing rom dump files that might cswiger> be out there w/o having to type a bunch of stuff in ;)) I've cswiger> an opportunity to put a message in an unusual place. I have the VT100 character patterns (or something quite close) in PDP-11 assembler lying around. Also the PLATO terminal patterns (8 by 16) in several formats. Interested? paul From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Sun Oct 23 13:55:07 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:55:07 -0400 Subject: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? In-Reply-To: <0IOQ00BECHQ006V1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOQ00BECHQ006V1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <736113E5-2CEA-4923-BFE0-7E533C65DE59@xlisper.mv.com> I found a replacement fan for the H7861. It is the same size and same wattage but it has only three blades instead of the five that the original had. Is this likely to produce enough air flow to prevent the system from frying itself? Or should I keep looking for a five blade fan? On Oct 21, 2005, at 7:40 PM, Allison wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? >> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:38:24 +0100 (BST) >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> >>> >>> I've made a bit of progress with my new 11/73 (got a prompt from >>> console ODT), but I found a problem. One of the power supply fans is >>> dead. Anyone know where I can get a replacement fan for the H7861 >>> power supply? >>> >> >> I know DEC used some odd fans in some of their machines (e.g. the 35V >> 75Hz ones in the 11/44 cabinet), but is there anything >> particularly odd >> about this one? Most of the time you can find something that will >> replace >> them. >> >> -tony >> > > Dead plain nothing special. > > Allison > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Oct 23 14:06:13 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:06:13 +0200 Subject: How to test 4116 ?s ? Message-ID: <14402B69-43F8-11DA-9568-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> I have a couple of 4116 DRAM's that I like to test. My approach will be to put an ic socket in a ZX spectrum and just fire it up with the DUT in the socket. Speccie works -> DRAM chip OK Speccie does not work -> DRAM chip dead. Is this too simpleminded , or are there better ways to test 4116's ? Jos I From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 14:12:10 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:12:10 +1300 Subject: How to test 4116 ?s ? In-Reply-To: <14402B69-43F8-11DA-9568-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> References: <14402B69-43F8-11DA-9568-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On 10/24/05, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > I have a couple of 4116 DRAM's that I like to test. > My approach will be to put an ic socket in a ZX spectrum and just fire > it up with the DUT in the socket. > > Speccie works -> DRAM chip OK > Speccie does not work -> DRAM chip dead. > > Is this too simpleminded , or are there better ways to test 4116's ? I did something similar to test 4K DRAMs, but a little more extensive... I removed a couple of DRAMs from a PDP-11/03 CPU board and installed sockets. In addition to the CPU, I stuck a Qbus COMBOARD on the backplane with a Fluke 9010A in place of its 68000 CPU. By setting bits in the COMBOARD CSR to allow DMA, I mapped the Qbus memory space into 68000 memory space and used memory tests on the Fluke to test the memory installed in the PDP-11/03 CPU. Not the simplest (or cheapest) rig, but I did have all the parts lying around. My own DRAM tester only does 4164s and up (+5VDC DIP parts). If you want to test pass/fail, your rig will work fine. If you suspect flakey operation, you'll want to run memory test patterns on the chip. One other possibility would be to find an Apple II and stick chips under test in the high bank and find/write a memory tester in 6502 assembler. I only suggest the Apple II because they are cheap and plentiful (and they use 4116 chips). -ethan From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Oct 23 14:25:46 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 05 19:25:46 GMT Subject: Found FPGA solution (tentative) Message-ID: <0510231925.AA22773@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Hello again, It looks like I have found a workable FPGA solution for my project that involves no Winblows and no GUI. It isn't 100% open source, but it IS 100% command line, which is most important to me. I didn't realise that Xilinx apparently supports Linux in the free "webpack" version of its tools, and this "webpack" supports Virtex II, which would be the appropriate FPGA family for my project if going the Xilinx route. I'm downloading the Linux version of the ISE 7.1 "webpack" right now. When it finishes downloading, I'll see if I can make it do what I want, which is to use the command line P&R tools as a back-end for Icarus Verilog like shown in Icarus documentation, targeting Virtex II. MS From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 23 14:36:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:36:20 -0400 Subject: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? Message-ID: <0IOT00JUJVRE2KV0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? > From: David Betz > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:55:07 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I found a replacement fan for the H7861. It is the same size and same >wattage but it has only three blades instead of the five that the >original had. Is this likely to produce enough air flow to prevent >the system from frying itself? Or should I keep looking for a five >blade fan? > I'd use it for testing and try to find the right one. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 23 15:19:17 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 13:19:17 -0700 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <435BD4A4.4090900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20051023062121.16E6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> <435BD4A4.4090900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200510231319170895.11316954@10.0.0.252> Slightly OT: How fast (in comparison to the original 11/780) do PC-based emulators run? My only close-up exposure with this line was a couple of years with an 11/750. It didn't seem like a speed demon then. If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC version? An intellectual exercise? Or will the FPGA version run an order of magnitude faster than the original? Very OT: This was about 1983, when AT&T thought they'd give the retail computer business a go. Over the space of about a month and a half, I did my best to buy a 3B4 (I think) from them. I succeeded only in enriching the long-distance end ot their business. The marketeers didn't have a clue ("Do we make that?"). Apparently, if I'd wanted to buy a 6300, they'd put a dozen on a truck headed my way the next day. But one of their minis? A wall of ignorance. After absolutely no luck, I picked up the phone, talked to the local DEC marketer and had an 11/750 the next week. Cheers, Chuck From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Oct 23 15:39:12 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:39:12 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update References: <20051023062121.16E6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> <435BD4A4.4090900@jetnet.ab.ca> <200510231319170895.11316954@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <17243.62705.59538.613990@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> Slightly OT: How fast (in comparison to the original 11/780) Chuck> do PC-based emulators run? My only close-up exposure with Chuck> this line was a couple of years with an 11/750. It didn't Chuck> seem like a speed demon then. An 11/780 is about the same speed as an 11/70, perhaps a bit less. And E-11 runs MUCH faster than an 11/70 -- maybe as much as 10x, I haven't done any benchmarks but it's very obvious when watching RSTS start up. Then again, E-11 is very carefully optimized. I'd expect that SIMH isn't quite as dramatic, though I'd guess that it too is faster. And given that the VAX instruction set is simlar to a PDP-11 in structure, the ratios should be comparable. (Yes, VAX has ultra-CISC instructions, but those are probably comparably slow.) paul From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Oct 23 15:39:30 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 05 20:39:30 GMT Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0510232039.AA22901@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC version? 1. I don't want an emulator, I want The Real Thing (tm). 2. A pee sea based emulator requires a pee sea. I refuse to contaminate my house with a pee sea. MS From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 23 15:58:39 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:58:39 -0600 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <200510231319170895.11316954@10.0.0.252> References: <20051023062121.16E6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> <435BD4A4.4090900@jetnet.ab.ca> <200510231319170895.11316954@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <435BF97F.3040402@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >Slightly OT: How fast (in comparison to the original 11/780) do PC-based >emulators run? My only close-up exposure with this line was a couple of >years with an 11/750. It didn't seem like a speed demon then. > > > The emulators run alot faster, but the problem is the 11 is still a commerical product so I don't think we will get better new hardware out. >If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC version? An >intellectual exercise? Or will the FPGA version run an order of magnitude >faster than the original? > > I suspect about the same speed as PC's 15 years ago or 74Sxx speeds. The real speed limit on computers now days is the cache memory. A external bus depending on memory used is the factor. Most common memory is about 120 ns to 70 ns access time unless you want to use the latest chips. >The marketeers didn't have a clue ("Do we make that?"). Apparently, if I'd >wanted to buy a 6300, they'd put a dozen on a truck headed my way the next >day. But one of their minis? A wall of ignorance. After absolutely no >luck, I picked up the phone, talked to the local DEC marketer and had an >11/750 the next week. > > Ben alias woodelf. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Oct 23 16:07:37 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:07:37 -0500 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510232039.AA22901@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0510232039.AA22901@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20051023160737.5ba78483.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 23 Oct 05 20:39:30 GMT msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC version? > > 1. I don't want an emulator, I want The Real Thing (tm). > > 2. A pee sea based emulator requires a pee sea. I refuse to contaminate > my house with a pee sea. > > MS Actually, with Bochs, you can run any PC software you choose, on a multitude of architectures. You could even layer it, running an x86 emulator on your system, running DOS on said emulator, then running a DOS-based VAX emulator on that virtual machine. Probably it would all keep up very nicely with your ASR-33 teletype. -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 23 16:09:30 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:09:30 -0500 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510232039.AA22901@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0510232039.AA22901@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200510231609.30230.pat@computer-refuge.org> Michael Sokolov declared on Sunday 23 October 2005 03:39 pm: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC > > version? > > 1. I don't want an emulator, I want The Real Thing (tm). Indeed. If we didn't, why would most of us have hardware laying around, when you can find an emulator for the hardware. (Not that you can find an emulator for everything I've got though. :) > 2. A pee sea based emulator requires a pee sea. I refuse to > contaminate my house with a pee sea. SimH is very portable and runs on very non-PeeCee hardware, including just about any UNIX that has a non-ancient version of gcc available. It may not be the fastest emu out there, but IMO it is the best one available, overall. And yes, I too appreciate having source code available to me to hack on if I need/want to. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Oct 23 16:09:48 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <435BD1B7.4050108@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > I think fab a real chip would be a better idea -- but then how many > people want a vax? > Ok, I don't . Looking at a different post the vax has large microcode, > so a FPGA that > can have internal ram be configured as micro-code tables would be handy. Did all VAX machines have microcode? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 23 16:10:44 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:10:44 -0600 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510232039.AA22901@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0510232039.AA22901@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <435BFC54.3040709@jetnet.ab.ca> Michael Sokolov wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > >>If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC version? >> >> > >1. I don't want an emulator, I want The Real Thing (tm). > >2. A pee sea based emulator requires a pee sea. I refuse to contaminate >my house with a pee sea. > > FPGA software requires a pee sea sadly enough. I suspect a 8080 could do PCB or CUSTOM IC design if you could use a programable character set on a terminal. When you think about it it is the hidden documentaion in closed hardware that is the problem. I open source FPGA could be done as a custom chip but getting around the hardware patents is the problem.. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 23 15:42:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:42:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: <435AF6A4.20105@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Oct 22, 5 10:34:12 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Hmmmm.... I find the 11/730 to be a very interesting design. It's almost > > all simple PALs. > > Isn't the 8700/8800 mostly bitslice chips? You might well be right. Are the prints available anywhere? The 11/730, of course, is mostly PALs (as I said) with some RAM as a control store, 8 off 2901s as the ALU, and an 8085 (I think) to load the control store, etc. One day I am going to look into modifying the microcode of that machine... The 11/730 has the major advantage for me that it's quite small (the CPU is a single 10.5" box, and I cna easily lift it). There are other small VAXenm but they all have nasty custom single-chip CPUs in them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 23 16:09:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:09:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Tube Audio In-Reply-To: <001701c5d7f3$68f8fca0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> from "Jim Beacon" at Oct 23, 5 06:01:27 pm Message-ID: > Tony, > > there is a vintage recorder section, with a number of very knowledgable > users on the forum listed above. Yes, but are they going to flame me for posting about non-valved, domestic-quality machines? Something like the EL3586 'Upright' machine I've just bougut? ObCC. This machine is very much the immediate predecessor of the cassette recorder, it's 1+78 ips tape speed, one track in each direction on normal 1/4" tape. The connectors seem to be the same as the connectors on the first Philips cassette recorders (at least according to the schematic glued inside the case :-)), I indend to try using it with a home computer sometime. Just for the hell of it. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 23 16:20:19 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:20:19 -0600 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435BFE93.8020406@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >>I think fab a real chip would be a better idea -- but then how many >>people want a vax? >>Ok, I don't . Looking at a different post the vax has large microcode, >>so a FPGA that >>can have internal ram be configured as micro-code tables would be handy. >> >> > >Did all VAX machines have microcode? > > I suspect all the DEC equipment had microcode when the programable roms became cost effective. The later PDP 8's could have even had state table roms. >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 23 16:22:46 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:22:46 -0700 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510232039.AA22901@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0510232039.AA22901@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200510231422460570.116B86D0@10.0.0.252> On 10/23/2005 at 8:39 PM msokolov at ivan.harhan.org wrote: >1. I don't want an emulator, I want The Real Thing (tm). Well, you might have a real core, but there's the problem of providing real I/O. Are you going to implement Unibus and QBus too? I/O is a far bigger problem than any core architecture, IMOHO. Some of those old mainframes had really high-speed I/O channels. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 23 16:28:33 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:28:33 -0700 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <200510231609.30230.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0510232039.AA22901@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <200510231609.30230.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200510231428330653.1170D298@10.0.0.252> On 10/23/2005 at 4:09 PM Patrick Finnegan wrote: >Michael Sokolov declared on Sunday 23 October 2005 03:39 pm: >SimH is very portable and runs on very non-PeeCee hardware, including >just about any UNIX that has a non-ancient version of gcc available. It >may not be the fastest emu out there, but IMO it is the best one >available, overall. And yes, I too appreciate having source code >available to me to hack on if I need/want to. Second that on SimH. I used it to decode the mysteries of WPS I--the other emulators I tried wouldn't run WPS. And I used the 1620 emulator to test out the 1620 "Bottles of Beer" code. Behaved exactly as I thought it would. The only major gripe I have with SimH is that there's no really universal way to preload memory and registers (LOAD on the 1620 emulation loads the line printer carriage-control tape). Before I got my MITS 8800 put together, I emulated the 8080 on a CDC Cyber 74 so I could write and assemble code and have it ready for the MITS box. So emulation is very useful on both ends of the life cycle. Cheers, Chuck From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Oct 23 16:29:31 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:29:31 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update References: <0510232039.AA22901@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <17244.187.481858.313818@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Sokolov writes: Michael> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC >> version? Michael> 2. A pee sea based emulator requires a pee sea. I refuse to Michael> contaminate my house with a pee sea. SIMH would run on a Mac, wouldn't it? :-) paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 23 16:54:49 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:54:49 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0IOU00JI52661V61@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: woodelf > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:58:39 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>Slightly OT: How fast (in comparison to the original 11/780) do PC-based >>emulators run? My only close-up exposure with this line was a couple of >>years with an 11/750. It didn't seem like a speed demon then. >> The 750 was around .6 to .7 a 780 for the cpu however the mass storage systems for the 780s were more elaborate and faster. >The emulators run alot faster, but the problem is the 11 is still a >commerical product >so I don't think we will get better new hardware out. > >>If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC version? An >>intellectual exercise? Or will the FPGA version run an order of magnitude >>faster than the original? >> >> >I suspect about the same speed as PC's 15 years ago or 74Sxx speeds. >The real speed limit on computers >now days is the cache memory. A external bus depending on memory used >is the factor. >Most common memory is about 120 ns to 70 ns access time unless you want >to use the latest >chips. 70ns was 1982 tech level. Tech for 1995 was 25ns for memory. Current is under 1ns. Don't forget one of the features of current hardware is the 1ns/ft barrier is outside the chip. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 23 16:59:23 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:59:23 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0IOU00BR32DRU2J7@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: William Donzelli > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:09:48 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> I think fab a real chip would be a better idea -- but then how many >> people want a vax? >> Ok, I don't . Looking at a different post the vax has large microcode, >> so a FPGA that >> can have internal ram be configured as micro-code tables would be handy. > >Did all VAX machines have microcode? > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org Far as I know, yes. For the 7xx series absolutely. There was limited rom microcode to enable booting and diags but the bulk of it was loaded at boot. Soft loaded microcode (ignoring emulated instructions) mostly disappeared with the Microvax and later VAX on silicon. Allison From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 23 17:03:34 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:03:34 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <17244.187.481858.313818@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <0510232039.AA22901@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <17244.187.481858.313818@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20051023220334.24ECDBA40DA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Sokolov writes: > > Michael> Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC > >> version? > > Michael> 2. A pee sea based emulator requires a pee sea. I refuse to > Michael> contaminate my house with a pee sea. > > SIMH would run on a Mac, wouldn't it? > > :-) > > paul > SIMH will run on a VAX, in fact :-). Getting back to FPGA's, I know of a couple FPGA implementations of PDP-11's. (They are mostly KDJ11 clones, but they differ in a couple of tiny respects.) With extreme effort in the late 90's, they managed to make 4 FPGA's be about a factor of 2 factor on most benchmarks than a 11/93. By the time the FPGA implementations made it to market the PC-based emulators were so much more cost-effective for most applications (despite their warts of running under a host OS...) I suspect that a FPGA implementation of a VAX would have a performance about equal to a 11/780 if done by an average Joe. Someone with much experience in caching/pipelining could probably eek out a factor of 2x or 3x by pulling out all the tricks in the book. Tim. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 23 17:06:54 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:06:54 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0IOU001TL2QAM291@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: woodelf > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:10:44 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Michael Sokolov wrote: > >>Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> >> >>>If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC version? >>> >>> >> >>1. I don't want an emulator, I want The Real Thing (tm). >> >>2. A pee sea based emulator requires a pee sea. I refuse to contaminate >>my house with a pee sea. >> >> >FPGA software requires a pee sea sadly enough. I suspect a 8080 could do >PCB or CUSTOM >IC design if you could use a programable character set on a terminal. >When you think about it >it is the hidden documentaion in closed hardware that is the problem. I >open source FPGA >could be done as a custom chip but getting around the hardware patents >is the problem.. An 8080 could not do it and graphics has little to do with it. FPGA P&R is a really large array problem that eats memory and cpu. The PC is a common choice as it's become fast enough and common as houseflies. After PCs what s the next most common hardware? A vendor of hardware (FPGAs) really only provides software so they can sell the part, I doubt that software is a money maker for them. So with that in minds if you not running a PC then likely the alternate hardware is from the small list: VAX or Alpha running UNIX AS400? Something PowerPC based? SUN? What else is out there that's not wintel, fast enough and can address a large memory that runs a fairly current UNIX. That also assumes the software that can P&R the FPGA is available as source. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 23 17:26:04 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:26:04 -0600 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0IOU00JI52661V61@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOU00JI52661V61@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <435C0DFC.7050008@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >70ns was 1982 tech level. Tech for 1995 was 25ns for memory. >Current is under 1ns. > >Don't forget one of the features of current hardware is the 1ns/ft >barrier is outside the chip. > > > The current CPU design barrier for me is the Beer Budget I have. This gets me 70 ns memory and 20 ns/logic cell programable devices and standard slow I/O devices. In 1982 I used a PDP-8/e so that is a speed I am looking at. 1985 an XT. Lets just say FPGA design is 1 generation slower than the latest techology. From what little I have seen of custom design as the designs shrink ( I still think in terms of 5 volt TTL ) layout rather than switching speed is what will slow you down. >Allison > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 23 17:28:07 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:28:07 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0IOU00BUU3PNU9S7@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:03:34 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Paul Koning wrote: > >> >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Sokolov writes: >> >> Michael> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC >> >> version? >> >> Michael> 2. A pee sea based emulator requires a pee sea. I refuse to >> Michael> contaminate my house with a pee sea. >> >> SIMH would run on a Mac, wouldn't it? >> >> :-) >> >> paul >> > >SIMH will run on a VAX, in fact :-). > >Getting back to FPGA's, I know of a couple FPGA implementations of >PDP-11's. (They are mostly KDJ11 clones, but they differ in a couple >of tiny respects.) With extreme effort in the late 90's, they managed >to make 4 FPGA's be about a factor of 2 factor on most benchmarks than >a 11/93. > >By the time the FPGA implementations made it to market the PC-based >emulators were so much more cost-effective for most applications >(despite their warts of running under a host OS...) > >I suspect that a FPGA implementation of a VAX would have a >performance about equal to a 11/780 if done by an average Joe. >Someone with much experience in caching/pipelining could probably >eek out a factor of 2x or 3x by pulling out all the tricks in the >book. > >Tim. Considering that 2901C (750ALU) was 100ns (1982 timeframe) I'd think by now the latest FPGAs are easily able to beat that by a factor of 25 or more. So I think that's on the low side. Without pipelining to any great extent and the availability of far faster memory than the mid 80s. I'd think 10x is shooting low. Seriously the more you put on the chip the faster it will go as busses are still working at ~1ns/ft and them chips are at best less than .2". The cray XMP was the tour de force around those limits back in the 80s. I'd think the real factor is that the VAX was CISC to the extreme and the microVAX (320780 chip) was on the order of 1-2million transistor equivilent gives one an idea of the task size though. Allison From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Oct 23 17:49:05 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <20051023220334.24ECDBA40DA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <0510232039.AA22901@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <17244.187.481858.313818@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20051023220334.24ECDBA40DA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Sokolov writes: >> >> Michael> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC >> >> version? >> >> Michael> 2. A pee sea based emulator requires a pee sea. I refuse to >> Michael> contaminate my house with a pee sea. >> >> SIMH would run on a Mac, wouldn't it? >> >> :-) >> >> paul >> > > SIMH will run on a VAX, in fact :-). > > Getting back to FPGA's, I know of a couple FPGA implementations of > PDP-11's. (They are mostly KDJ11 clones, but they differ in a couple > of tiny respects.) With extreme effort in the late 90's, they managed > to make 4 FPGA's be about a factor of 2 factor on most benchmarks than > a 11/93. > > By the time the FPGA implementations made it to market the PC-based > emulators were so much more cost-effective for most applications > (despite their warts of running under a host OS...) > > I suspect that a FPGA implementation of a VAX would have a > performance about equal to a 11/780 if done by an average Joe. > Someone with much experience in caching/pipelining could probably > eek out a factor of 2x or 3x by pulling out all the tricks in the > book. > > Tim. > Well since its pretty easy to get microcode to run at 75-100 MHz or so in current cheap FPGAs, I'd say that 10 X a 780 should be trivial... Peter Wallace From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 23 18:01:44 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:01:44 -0500 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <435BFC54.3040709@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0510232039.AA22901@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <435BFC54.3040709@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200510231801.44344.pat@computer-refuge.org> woodelf declared on Sunday 23 October 2005 04:10 pm: > Michael Sokolov wrote: > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC > >> version? > > > >1. I don't want an emulator, I want The Real Thing (tm). > > > >2. A pee sea based emulator requires a pee sea. I refuse to > > contaminate my house with a pee sea. > > FPGA software requires a pee sea sadly enough. No it doesn't. In my FPGA design class at Purdue, I never used a single PC. The software we used ran on Sun Ultrasparc boxes running Solaris. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of it right now. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 23 18:04:22 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:04:22 -0600 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0IOU001TL2QAM291@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOU001TL2QAM291@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <435C16F6.5010400@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >An 8080 could not do it and graphics has little to do with it. > > > I make this claim for custom IC design. I say it is posible for two reasons but not practical. The first reasion is based on the IDEA that PCB layout and IC layout are much the same so macro-cells could developed as basic blocks, as well as graphic blocks to display the layout.The second factor is this design is not going for speed in both layout or gate delays. A resonable amount external memory is called a 8 inch floppy. I don't want to develop the latest generation CPU but something that fits with 8080 -- 8088 layouts. I don't want to forget about system bootstrapping something is easly forgotton when doing cross development. >FPGA P&R is a really large array problem that eats memory and cpu. > > >What else is out there that's not wintel, fast enough and can address >a large memory that runs a fairly current UNIX. That also assumes >the software that can P&R the FPGA is available as source. > > P&R is mostly sorting is my guess. However my designs view point for open source is being able to keep the computer system capable of bootstaping itself. Looking at the latest version of red-hat I find it hard to do any real development work as everything is becoming too interconnected with every thing else. >Allison > > PS. I like small computers -- I just use big ones like PC's to play games. 12 to 18 bits to me is a nice sized machine. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 23 18:27:15 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:27:15 -0600 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <200510231801.44344.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0510232039.AA22901@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <435BFC54.3040709@jetnet.ab.ca> <200510231801.44344.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <435C1C53.3030503@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >No it doesn't. > > > Mine does use a PC. I have to use the free stuff and that is PC, >In my FPGA design class at Purdue, I never used a single PC. The >software we used ran on Sun Ultrasparc boxes running Solaris. >Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of it right now. > > I also get use CUPL for my CPLD designs. I am greatfull that I am not in a FPGA class as I dis-agree with the languages used to write hardware, I am still a hardware person, and the direction CPU design is going, since I still like to be able to see hardware and that does not seem posible. >Pat > > I also don't like FPGA for the reason you can't do single persion development like I am doing since Serial - prom programers are expensive. A CPLD development kit is about $100 and I can still use 5 volt devices. FPGA's have good features but low cost develepment is not one of them after you have to have a stand alone design away from the host computer. ----- Back to the vax, does the person who started this thread have VAX software and VAX I/O devices? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 23 18:29:04 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:29:04 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0IOU00BTO6J706N7@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: woodelf > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:26:04 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: > >>70ns was 1982 tech level. Tech for 1995 was 25ns for memory. >>Current is under 1ns. >> >>Don't forget one of the features of current hardware is the 1ns/ft >>barrier is outside the chip. >> >> >> >The current CPU design barrier for me is the Beer Budget I have. >This gets me 70 ns memory and 20 ns/logic cell programable devices >and standard slow I/O devices. In 1982 I used a PDP-8/e so that >is a speed I am looking at. 1985 an XT. >Lets just say FPGA design is 1 generation slower than the latest >techology. From what little I have seen of custom design as the >designs shrink ( I still think in terms of 5 volt TTL ) layout rather >than switching speed is what will slow you down. Well on my less than beer budget (I'm cheap) The static 32k byte devices I've pulled off of old 386 and 486 board are 25ns and below. Now he typical 30pin simms are 70ns dynamic rams. The core for PDP-8e generation was the limiting factor at 1.5uS or more than 20 times slower. The FPGAs I was playing with are as fast as late 70s TTL so there is no reason I cant do a faster PDP-8 with "old stuff". Then again the PDP-8e was limited by the 1970s tech of core speed not logic speed it could esily go faster if core could keep up. The mid 80s 6120 (Decmate II and III) CMOS pdp8 chip was faster too despite being microprogramed and multiplxed bus. However if your assumption that FPGA is one speed generation behind current silicon that makes it still under 1ns/cell which is plenty fast. Granted there is some speed penelty for nonoptimum routing. People that have done PDP-8s in FPGAs easily exceed the basic 8e speeds save for they don't seem to push them at all. As to the 1982 XT, that was slow by then standards by a factor of not less than 2. In 1982 the 8086/88 was up to 10mhz already. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 23 18:36:46 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:36:46 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0IOU002MR6W15TD3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: woodelf > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:04:22 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> >P&R is mostly sorting is my guess. However my designs view point for >open source >is being able to keep the computer system capable of bootstaping itself. >Looking at the >latest version of red-hat I find it hard to do any real development work >as everything >is becoming too interconnected with every thing else. P&R is taking the available resources those being: number of PINS on the package that are for input output or either. Number of macrocells Avalable number of "wires" in the routing array (like crosspoint switches) The devices I'd worked with are two generations (or more) old and it was hard to fully use the available cells or if you did you were hitting the routing limits. However the number of possible terms are HUGE. >PS. I like small computers -- I just use big ones like PC's to play games. >12 to 18 bits to me is a nice sized machine. I happen to like sizes that are multiples of 8 (8, 16 and 24) however 12bits are special to me. Allison From KParker at workcover.com Sun Oct 23 18:44:23 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:14:23 +0930 Subject: Book worms Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616230483D6F7@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> I am trying to identify a book that I want to get. My vague recollection is that it was about IBM or IBM Blue and may have been about the history of IBM or one of its owners/directors. I vaguely recall the front cover had a man standing in it. Does this ring a bell with anyone. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Oct 23 18:49:50 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:49:50 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:03:34 EDT." <20051023220334.24ECDBA40DA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200510232349.j9NNnopC024463@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > >I suspect that a FPGA implementation of a VAX would have a >performance about equal to a 11/780 if done by an average Joe. >Someone with much experience in caching/pipelining could probably >eek out a factor of 2x or 3x by pulling out all the tricks in the >book. I have to disagree. I think you're off by at least a factor of 10, maybe even 100. http://www.fpgacpu.org (and that's 3 year old info) If you can build a 300mips 8051 in an fpga, you sure as heck can build a 10mips vax. I would bet on 50mips w/o breaking a sweat. http://www.opencores.org/projects.cgi/web/yacc/overview that's 110mips @ 165mhz. not hard at all these days. heck, you run the sdram interface at 100mhz. If you can keep things inside the fpga you can use clock multipliers to run pretty fast. It's the pad ring which will slow you down, but now days the on/off chip delays are under 10ns. I would think the sdram interface would be the limiting factor. You'd want to burst into a cache but that eats up a ton of resources, so you have to find a reasonable tradeoff. There is enough ram inside most fpga's these days to do some form of associative caching and all of the microcode/register file you need. Go look at NIOS and other off-the-shelf cpu's. They are moving a long at a nice clip. -brad From ken at seefried.com Sun Oct 23 18:55:05 2005 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:55:05 -0400 Subject: SMD Disk AnalyzerAvailible Message-ID: <435C22D9.3020803@seefried.com> I have a Wilson Laboratories, Inc. MWX-1000S SMD Disk Analyzer that I'd like to see go to someone that can use it for the benefit of the Classiccmp community. Unfortunately, I don't have any idea if it works and have no way to test it, though it came into my hands with the claim that it worked. I'll send it for the cost of postage. It's in the form-factor of a modest size suitcase and weighs about 18 lbs, near as I can figure. Please contact me off list. Ken From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Oct 23 19:00:05 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 05 00:00:05 GMT Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0510240000.AA23297@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, you might have a real core, but there's the problem of providing real > I/O. Are you going to implement Unibus and QBus too? No, I'll implement something far better - VAXBI! MS From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Oct 23 19:05:42 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 05 00:05:42 GMT Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0510240005.AA23331@ivan.Harhan.ORG> shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > I suspect that a FPGA implementation of a VAX would have a > performance about equal to a 11/780 if done by an average Joe. Yes, that's about what I expect to get in my first implementation. I would be quite satisfied with it, for my very first CPU chip design. MS From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Oct 23 19:06:35 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:06:35 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update References: <435BFE93.8020406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <17244.9611.85988.856101@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "woodelf" == woodelf writes: woodelf> William Donzelli wrote: >> Did all VAX machines have microcode? >> woodelf> I suspect all the DEC equipment had microcode when the woodelf> programable roms became cost effective. The later PDP 8's woodelf> could have even had state table roms. Except Alpha (and MIPS boxes) of course. paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 23 19:07:52 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:07:52 -0400 Subject: Book worms Message-ID: <0IOU009ZN8BVM0J6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Peter Norton I have the programmers guide for IBM PC and PS2. There were others from Peter Norton. Allison > >Subject: Book worms > From: "Parker, Kevin" > Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:14:23 +0930 > To: > > >I am trying to identify a book that I want to get. > >My vague recollection is that it was about IBM or IBM Blue and may have >been about the history of IBM or one of its owners/directors. > >I vaguely recall the front cover had a man standing in it. > >Does this ring a bell with anyone. > >++++++++++ >Kevin Parker >Web Services Consultant >WorkCover Corporation > >p: 08 8233 2548 >m: 0418 806 166 >e: kparker at workcover.com >w: www.workcover.com > >++++++++++ > >************************************************************************ >This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may >contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality >and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you >are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. > >Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the >WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have >been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files >transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. > >If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender >immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any >copies. >************************************************************************ > From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Oct 23 19:09:16 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:09:16 -0700 Subject: Book worms In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616230483D6F7@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> (Kevin Parker's message of "Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:14:23 +0930") References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616230483D6F7@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <200510240009.j9O09GMd010129@lots.reanimators.org> Kevin Parker wrote: > I am trying to identify a book that I want to get. > > My vague recollection is that it was about IBM or IBM Blue and may have > been about the history of IBM or one of its owners/directors. > > I vaguely recall the front cover had a man standing in it. You may be remembering _Father, Son & Co.: My Life at IBM and Beyond_ by Thomas J. Watson Jr. and Peter Petre. Searching eBay for "Father Son Co." will get you some pictures. -Frank McConnell From allain at panix.com Sun Oct 23 19:13:36 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:13:36 -0400 Subject: Book worms References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616230483D6F7@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <0ec701c5d82f$d84091e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I vaguely recall the front cover had a man standing in it. You should've asked the man standing on the book to step off so you could have properly read the title. Seriously, Here's one to start you off, and a good chance that this is it: "Father, Son & Co." by Thomas J. Watson Jr. John A. From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Oct 23 19:15:18 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:15:18 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update References: <0510240000.AA23297@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <17244.10134.743318.99540@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Sokolov writes: Michael> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Well, you might have a real core, but there's the problem of >> providing real I/O. Are you going to implement Unibus and QBus >> too? Michael> No, I'll implement something far better - VAXBI! Wow, where did you find the specs? paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 19:17:25 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:17:25 +1300 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510240000.AA23297@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0510240000.AA23297@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On 10/24/05, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Well, you might have a real core, but there's the problem of providing real > > I/O. Are you going to implement Unibus and QBus too? > > No, I'll implement something far better - VAXBI! Aaaauuugggghhh!!!! I say this as a former DEC developer... We made our own Unibus, Qbus, and VAXBI products for years... the mechanical aspects of the VAXBI are a PITA. The logic isn't bad - you just hand over everything to the BIIC and magic occureth. I can't count the number of times my 8200 wouldn't boot because I had to reseat the KDB50 cards. Personally, I'd look at it from the aspect of what sorts of ports one needs rather than trying to implement the underlying bus architecture. One needs an interface for disk and tape (might as well be SCSI); one needs a network interface (or multiples); one usually needs serial ports (though a terminal server can suffice for basic tasks like logging in and attaching serial printers)... so there's no reason not to design a virtual bus inside the FPGA and either drive an external SCSI chip or just absorb that function into the CPU design. While I enjoyed my time working on DEC-compatible peripherals, I think it's important not to lose sight of the fact that at the end of the day, the part that mattered was the part that stuck out into the real world, not the bus it sat on. -ethan From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Oct 23 19:17:55 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 05 00:17:55 GMT Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0510240017.AA23446@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Paul Koning wrote: > Wow, where did you find the specs? I have to protect my source. MS From marvin at rain.org Sun Oct 23 19:19:13 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:19:13 -0700 Subject: Todays stuff Message-ID: <435C2881.173039FB@rain.org> I've been waiting for several years, but finally got the opportunity to pick up a bunch of classic stuff today (with a garage still left to be emptied.) Included are two Poly 88s plus a couple of chassis's and parts, a Lobo Drives LX expansion chassis, a LOT of floppy disks that look like they came from Lobo Drives when they went out of business, and a bunch of Apple boards and docs. Some of this stuff (along with a LOT more) will be available up at VCF. As usual, I'm starting to make a list of things and will post it a couple of days before heading up to VCF. From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Oct 23 19:54:00 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:54:00 -0500 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510240017.AA23446@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0510240017.AA23446@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <435C30A8.708@pacbell.net> Michael Sokolov wrote: > Paul Koning wrote: > > >>Wow, where did you find the specs? > > > I have to protect my source. > > MS Yes, I understand. The curtains rise, the crows hushes, MS enters, stage left. Act I. Information must be free! Death to the invading hoards of PCs! I'd turn into a pillar of salt if I looked at a windows boot screen! The world is full of fools that don't know they are selling their very souls to the devil by compromising with reality! (Dollar) Bill Gate$ is the gatekeeper to the Apocalypse! Act II. I have something that you want? Too bad, it's mine. I'm not sharing. Sheesh. Lots of wind, no rain. From allain at panix.com Sun Oct 23 20:07:14 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:07:14 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update References: <20051023062121.16E6473029@linus.groomlake.area51><435BD4A4.4090900@jetnet.ab.ca> <200510231319170895.11316954@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <0f8001c5d837$45c0eec0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Slightly OT: How fast (in comparison to the original 11/780) > do PC-based emulators run? My simple answer... On a 200Mhz Pentium, SimH running VMS feels like a MicroVAX II (close to a 750). At 700Mhz, it feels like a MicroVax 3500. Basically a directly proportional increase. John A. From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 20:22:24 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:22:24 -0400 Subject: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? In-Reply-To: <0IOT00JUJVRE2KV0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOT00JUJVRE2KV0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <435C3750.7030001@gmail.com> Allison wrote: >>Subject: Re: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? >> From: David Betz >> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:55:07 -0400 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >>I found a replacement fan for the H7861. It is the same size and same >>wattage but it has only three blades instead of the five that the >>original had. Is this likely to produce enough air flow to prevent >>the system from frying itself? Or should I keep looking for a five >>blade fan? >> > > > I'd use it for testing and try to find the right one. If it has the same CFM rating and the same wattage, what does it matter? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 20:25:20 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:25:20 -0400 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435C3800.9040906@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>Tony Duell wrote: >> >>>Hmmmm.... I find the 11/730 to be a very interesting design. It's almost >>>all simple PALs. >> >>Isn't the 8700/8800 mostly bitslice chips? > > > You might well be right. Are the prints available anywhere? I don't know. I've never looked. I'll see if I can find them. > The 11/730, of course, is mostly PALs (as I said) with some RAM as a > control store, 8 off 2901s as the ALU, and an 8085 (I think) to load the > control store, etc. One day I am going to look into modifying the > microcode of that machine... To what end? Increased performance? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 20:27:06 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:27:06 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <200510231609.30230.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0510232039.AA22901@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <200510231609.30230.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <435C386A.200@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > SimH is very portable and runs on very non-PeeCee hardware, including > just about any UNIX that has a non-ancient version of gcc available. It > may not be the fastest emu out there, but IMO it is the best one > available, overall. And yes, I too appreciate having source code > available to me to hack on if I need/want to. Indeed. I run SimH on RS/6000. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 23 20:32:14 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:32:14 -0700 Subject: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? In-Reply-To: <435C3750.7030001@gmail.com> References: <0IOT00JUJVRE2KV0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <435C3750.7030001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510231832140178.124FE8AE@10.0.0.252> On 10/23/2005 at 9:22 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >If it has the same CFM rating and the same wattage, what does it matter? Noise level, maybe, but who cares? Cheers, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 20:47:39 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 02:47:39 +0100 Subject: Best OS/2 1.3 or 2.1 Machine In-Reply-To: <4349F0A3.8010203@gmail.com> References: <008801c5cbcb$240abbd0$0500fea9@game> <6.2.5.4.2.20051008071804.03375558@boff-net.dhs.org> <4349F0A3.8010203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0510231847r23afe158o@mail.gmail.com> On 10/10/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Uhhh. No. e-Comstation works just fine with a whole load of features > that WSeB doesn't have. Has Serenity got IBM to hand over the late-fixpack Warp Server 4.5 kernel and other updates yet? Last I heard, eCom was still on the Warp 4.0 kernel, even tho' IBM had done substantiat tweaking & revision subsequently... -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 23 20:53:30 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:53:30 -0400 Subject: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? Message-ID: <0IOU00D50D7WPR44@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:32:14 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/23/2005 at 9:22 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>If it has the same CFM rating and the same wattage, what does it matter? > >Noise level, maybe, but who cares? > >Cheers, >Chuck > What changes is the ability to push a given CFM against a head (backpressure). As to who care's? Officially not I. Unofficially as someone that's got one running and all, cooling is life for electronics. Anything running nearly 200W of DC is going to need a little breeze lest it become a pizza oven. There are alot of boards that will live longer and all if there is enough air passing over them. It's a good thing. Allison From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Oct 23 20:53:49 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 05 01:53:49 GMT Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0510240153.AA23617@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Jim Battle wrote: > I have something that you want? Too bad, it's mine. I'm not sharing. I never said that I'm not sharing! I just can't say who gave me my copy of the VAXBI spec to protect that person, but s/he has told that s/he has no problem with me spreading the spec further. I've got it in scanned form, so it's too big to go on my FTP site, but I can send you a copy on paper or CD-R. MS From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 23 21:31:14 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:31:14 -0700 Subject: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? In-Reply-To: <0IOU00D50D7WPR44@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOU00D50D7WPR44@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510231931140555.1285ED97@10.0.0.252> On 10/23/2005 at 9:53 PM Allison wrote: >As to who care's? Officially not I. Unofficially as someone that's >got one running and all, cooling is life for electronics. Anything >running nearly 200W of DC is going to need a little breeze lest it >become a pizza oven. > >There are alot of boards that will live longer and all if there is >enough air passing over them. It's a good thing. ...and even more boards that would benefit from a little airflow design. Too many systems just put some fans on the box and let whatever goes on in the interior of the box be solved by magic. One of the many weaknesses of the PC, IMOHO, is that there's no real provision made for airflow over the surfaces of the option cards. In fact, the whole lot is stuck in a corner of the box (with no vents nearby), so expansion cards essentially reside in a dead space as concerns air circulation. BTW, here's a supplier of all sorts of fans. Maybe there's a more better replacement there: http://www.blowerwheel.com/fans-cooling-electronics-framed-square.htm Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 23 23:00:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 05:00:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: <435C3800.9040906@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Oct 23, 5 09:25:20 pm Message-ID: > > The 11/730, of course, is mostly PALs (as I said) with some RAM as a > > control store, 8 off 2901s as the ALU, and an 8085 (I think) to load the > > control store, etc. One day I am going to look into modifying the > > microcode of that machine... > > To what end? Increased performance? NO, just for fun... I doubt very much I could improve on the performance for running the VAX instruction set. I have not looked at the prints carefully enough to determine how much of the instruction set is hard-wired (if any), I wonder if it would be possible to run a different instruction set entirely. -tony From tequilizer at gmx.net Sun Oct 23 02:34:46 2005 From: tequilizer at gmx.net (Tequi Lizer) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:34:46 +0200 Subject: HP 9845 C with 280 option startup failure Message-ID: <435B3D16.2090000@gmx.net> I recently acquired a HP 9845C option 280 (was looking for it for a really long time). The machine is in an overall good condition, however it hangs during memory test ("MEMORY TEST IN PROGRESS"), even after cleaning all board connectors, resocketing all ROMs & repeated control-stop's. Before entering nirvana the printer outputs a couple of memory addresses. Although lots of defects may be responsible, I assume there is a combination of both a bad RAM chip and a ROM failure, since a RAM defect alone should (?) not crash the system during the test. The printout looks like this: 000000 100112 052525 000000 110112 052525 000000 120112 052525 000000 130112 052525 I guess the first number is the block ID, the next is the memory address within the block, and the last number is the test pattern, each in octal representation. Does anyone have an idea - how to really interpret the memory test printouts and - how to check the ROMs for bad data? Maybe there is anyone out there who did the job to read out the contents of his 9845 ROMs (they are all in sockets) for a direct comparison. There is a 98407A memory option installed, and, of course, a bit slice LPU. So the ROMs work out as: PPU assembly: CE1 LB: 1818-1591B CE1 UB: 1818-1592B CE2 LB: 1818-0846D CE2 UB: 1818-0841D CE3 LB: 1818-0837D CE3 UB: 1818-0833D CE4 LB: 1818-1898A CE4 UB: 1818-1899A LPU assembly: CE1 LB: 1818-1506A CE1 UB: 1818-1502A CE2 LB: 1818-1507A CE2 UB: 1818-1503A CE3 LB: 1818-1508A CE3 UB: 1818-1504D CE4 LB: 1818-1509A CE4 UB: 1818-1505A Most of them schould be the same as in an 9845B model 200 system. Thanks for your help Ansgar From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 24 04:08:08 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:08:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: <200510230007.j9N07AhP003272@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510230007.j9N07AhP003272@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Oct 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/23/05, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > You'll probably hate me for telling that I threw an 11/730 away less than > > a year ago. > > But it was in Sweden, and I doubt anyone would want to pay for the > > shipping. > > I would have been happy to pay shipping for the CPU boards. I might have those still around (hate to throw things). Let me check... Oh, and remind me in a week or three. ;-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 24 04:20:23 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:20:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 11/782 (was: Any own an 11/725...?) In-Reply-To: <200510230637.j9N6bAnR007720@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510230637.j9N6bAnR007720@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > But the hardware I still keep around is much more interesting... :-) > > Sometime in the future, I wouldn't mind trying to put an 11/782 > together. Anyone know where I might be able to find some information > about the interconnect hardware? There basically isn't any (hardware, that is). The 11/782 was not an SMP design. It was two CPUs with shared memory, where one CPU acted as a slave to the other. All I/O was on the primary CPU as well. The second CPU was just a computing resource. I haven't (yet) found any references to any interconnect hardware apart from the dual-ported memory boxes. Maybe someone else knows some more details? Appearantly, it wasn't much faster than a normal 11/780 either, so some of the machines appearantly got split up into two separate 11/780s instead. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 24 04:22:53 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:22:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Unibus SCSI (was: Any own an 11/725...?) In-Reply-To: <200510230637.j9N6bAnR007720@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510230637.j9N6bAnR007720@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > If anyone has a spare RC25 cart or two, I wouldn't mind picking one > > up... it's likely to be cheaper than a Unibus SCSI interface. ;-) > > Is there such a thing as a Unibus SCSI? Certainly. Several actually. CMD made the CMD 720/722, which was both disk and tape. Very good controller. I have one. Viking made a controller, and I believe Emulex also made one. There were probably one or two other manufacturers as well. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 24 04:26:53 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:26:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) In-Reply-To: <200510230637.j9N6bAnR007720@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510230637.j9N6bAnR007720@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, "Martin Bishop" wrote: > QUOTE The 8/A cannot have an EAE UNQUOTE > > Don't think this is correct. Because, such a machine would have no serious > (integer) arithmetic capability. Also, the PDP 8/A Minicomputer Handbook > 1976/77 has a lengthy section [pp9-56 .. 9-65] on the KE8-E (Extended > Arithmetic Element : EAE). However, the "PDP-8 Summary of Models and > Options" (posted by Doug Jones) indicates that the EAE can be fitted iff the > PDP-8/E CPU boardset is fitted. That is PDP-8/A models 600/620 were fitted > with the KK8E CPU and optionally the 8/E EAE. And, I imagine "field > specials" were doubtless built. > > Another wrinkle; correction invited. As I said, some 8/A systems were fitted with 8/E CPUs. It's actually almost on the verge of terminology confusion. I should probably have written explicitly that it's the KK8A that cannot have an EAE, while the KK8E can. However, there are no "field specials". The KK8A simply cannot have an EAE. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 24 04:29:03 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:29:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) In-Reply-To: <200510230637.j9N6bAnR007720@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510230637.j9N6bAnR007720@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, "Martin Bishop" wrote: > QUOTE The 8/A cannot have an EAE UNQUOTE > > Don't think this is correct. Because, such a machine would have no serious > (integer) arithmetic capability. Speaking of integer arithmetic capability: the 8/A systems where you wanted better numeric crunch were expected to be fitted with the FPP8A, which can do both integer and FP stuff, and does it much better. (One of the options I'd like to find to play with, but haven't...) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com Mon Oct 24 05:41:44 2005 From: Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com (Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:41:44 +0200 Subject: installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1 Message-ID: <8396A6180D00874B9A19FD728529F06A06B15E@nlhoo1-exc010.aerospace.intra> Does anyone know how to install, on a alpha computer (DEC3000) running with VMS version 6.1 software, the same equipment with a new Ethernet address? Gr. Rinaldo -------------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any attachment(s) sent with it are intended exclusively for the addressee(s), and may not be used by, opened by, passed on to, or made available for use to, any person other than the addressee(s). Stork rules out any and all liabilities resulting from any electronic transmission. From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 24 05:49:05 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:49:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <200510232253.j9NMrTYs016862@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510232253.j9NMrTYs016862@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Getting back to FPGA's, I know of a couple FPGA implementations of > > PDP-11's. (They are mostly KDJ11 clones, but they differ in a couple > > of tiny respects.) With extreme effort in the late 90's, they managed > > to make 4 FPGA's be about a factor of 2 factor on most benchmarks than > > a 11/93. And the PDP-11 is much easier to implement than a VAX. > > By the time the FPGA implementations made it to market the PC-based > > emulators were so much more cost-effective for most applications > > (despite their warts of running under a host OS...) > > > > I suspect that a FPGA implementation of a VAX would have a > > performance about equal to a 11/780 if done by an average Joe. > > Someone with much experience in caching/pipelining could probably > > eek out a factor of 2x or 3x by pulling out all the tricks in the > > book. > > > > Tim. > > > > Well since its pretty easy to get microcode to run at 75-100 MHz or so in > current cheap FPGAs, I'd say that 10 X a 780 should be trivial... I'd say that's wrong. Considering that the VAX8650 microcode engine runs at 68 MHz and manages about 7 times the 11/780, you're optimistic. The 8650 have a very large microcode word, actually have three (or was it four?) microcode engines running in parallell, and some very advanced cacheing and pipelining to speed it up to get even that far. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 24 05:57:22 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:57:22 -0700 Subject: Unibus SCSI (was: Any own an 11/725...?) In-Reply-To: References: <200510230637.j9N6bAnR007720@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 11:22 AM +0200 10/24/05, Johnny Billquist wrote: >On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Is there such a thing as a Unibus SCSI? > >Certainly. Several actually. CMD made the CMD 720/722, which was both disk >and tape. Very good controller. I have one. >Viking made a controller, and I believe Emulex also made one. There were >probably one or two other manufacturers as well. Those are the ones I can think of at the moment, but it's worth noting that if the situation with Unibus was anything like with Q-Bus, there were probably at least a couple companies rebadging the Viking boards (Alphatronix springs to mind, but it's to early, so I might be miremembering). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Oct 24 05:58:09 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:58:09 +1000 Subject: 11/782 (was: Any own an 11/725...?) In-Reply-To: References: <200510230637.j9N6bAnR007720@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8E9D9214-F3D1-4200-839F-862A4C406FC3@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 24/10/2005, at 7:20 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > There basically isn't any (hardware, that is). > The 11/782 was not an SMP design. It was two CPUs with shared memory, > where one CPU acted as a slave to the other. All I/O was on the > primary > CPU as well. The second CPU was just a computing resource. > > I haven't (yet) found any references to any interconnect hardware > apart > from the dual-ported memory boxes. As far as I can recall, that's all you need (apart from a couple of working 11/780s). The shared memory cabinet contained 4Mb of multi- port memory. Two were used for the 11/782 but I think there were four ports altogether. MA780 is the part number that springs to mind but MA782 makes more sense :-) > Maybe someone else knows some more details? Treat all comments as being restored from a nearly 20 year old 1/2" tape with no error checking or correction. > Appearantly, it wasn't much faster than a normal 11/780 either, so > some of > the machines appearantly got split up into two separate 11/780s > instead. Certainly the only 11/782 I know of (Melbourne University) was split to get much better performance. Basically all I/O (and hence all of VMS) had to occur in the "master" 11/780 so all that could be run in the slave was CPU intensive jobs. As soon as your CPU bound process wanted to do something other than compute it had to be scheduled in the "master". Effectively you had one big global lock on VMS. The story goes that all the necessary VMS changes to support the 11/782 occurred over a weekend. Another interesting story concerns the mythical 11/787 (ie two 11/785s rather than 11/780s). There were rumors of such systems occurring in a mythical site somewhere near the centre of Australia :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Oct 24 06:49:53 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: References: <200510232253.j9NMrTYs016862@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > >> On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: >> >>> Getting back to FPGA's, I know of a couple FPGA implementations of >>> PDP-11's. (They are mostly KDJ11 clones, but they differ in a couple >>> of tiny respects.) With extreme effort in the late 90's, they managed >>> to make 4 FPGA's be about a factor of 2 factor on most benchmarks than >>> a 11/93. > > And the PDP-11 is much easier to implement than a VAX. > >>> By the time the FPGA implementations made it to market the PC-based >>> emulators were so much more cost-effective for most applications >>> (despite their warts of running under a host OS...) >>> >>> I suspect that a FPGA implementation of a VAX would have a >>> performance about equal to a 11/780 if done by an average Joe. >>> Someone with much experience in caching/pipelining could probably >>> eek out a factor of 2x or 3x by pulling out all the tricks in the >>> book. >>> >>> Tim. >>> >> >> Well since its pretty easy to get microcode to run at 75-100 MHz or so in >> current cheap FPGAs, I'd say that 10 X a 780 should be trivial... > > I'd say that's wrong. Considering that the VAX8650 microcode engine runs > at 68 MHz and manages about 7 times the 11/780, you're optimistic. > The 8650 have a very large microcode word, actually have three (or was > it four?) microcode engines running in parallell, and some very advanced > cacheing and pipelining to speed it up to get even that far. Not sure, but my guess is that a lot of that sophisticated caching and pipelining was needed to get the microengine to run at that 68 MHz because of the chip-chip delays in a large multi-chip design. Current cheap FPGAs can manage 75-100 MHz with no pipelining. They can also do 32 bit adds/subtracts in < 7 or so nS. I doubt if the 8650s hardware could manage that. Would be interesting to know the average number of microinstructions per macroinstruction on the 8650... > > Johnny > > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > Peter Wallace From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 24 07:13:06 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:13:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1 In-Reply-To: <8396A6180D00874B9A19FD728529F06A06B15E@nlhoo1-exc010.aerospace.intra> References: <8396A6180D00874B9A19FD728529F06A06B15E@nlhoo1-exc010.aerospace.intra> Message-ID: <4749.135.196.233.27.1130155986.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Mon, October 24, 2005 11:41 am, Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com said: > > Does anyone know how to install, on a alpha computer (DEC3000) running > with VMS version 6.1 software, the same equipment with a new Ethernet > address? Which address do you mean, the MAC address of the ethernet hardware or a different DECnet address? The MAC address is burned into the hardware and only gets changed when the machine is in a cluster IIRC, and changing the DECnet address is different from Phase IV DECnet to DECnet/OSI. If you can give us some more information it'll help. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com Mon Oct 24 06:29:10 2005 From: Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com (Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:29:10 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/A Front Panels Message-ID: http://www.protoexpress.com/ I have used them for years. excellent product, great price, fast turn, small quantity OK |---------+-----------------------------> | | "vrs" | | | | | | Sent by: | | | cctech-bounces at cla| | | ssiccmp.org | | | | | | | | | 10/20/2005 02:19 | | | PM | | | Please respond to | | | "General | | | Discussion: | | | On-Topic Posts | | | Only" | | | | |---------+-----------------------------> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" | | cc: | | Subject: Re: PDP-8/A Front Panels | >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| From: "steve" > --- Vince Slyngstad wrote: > > Charles Morris and I have been working to create an > > equivalent for the KC8A > > Nice, generally though the demand for something is > much greater if you actually have it ready to ship (in > case your preorder responses are low, don't get > discouraged). Thanks! > Looks like your front panel and parts cost are > constant with quantity, but your pc board drops > greatly with quantity. If I were you I would just > order 20 or so pc boards and let the buyers order the > parts and panel separately (as needed, some buyers may > not want the panel, others may already have most of > the parts). The problem with that is that it forces us to front hundreds of dollars, with no indication that we'll ever get it back. I already have boards sitting around from several projects, representing hundreds of dollars of investment on my part, that may never "sell" (even at cost). It is a lot better for us to have some idea of the demand, so we can mitigate how much "over-investment" we want to do. Though you are right, that if we found someone who would pick up the overhead cost of a board order ($200 each time), we would be way ahead. (Anyone know of a shop that can do a double-sided 16" board with solder mask and without a steep setup charge?) The other major ticket item for this project is the front plate. Anyone know where we can get those done inexpensively? Vince From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 07:44:26 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:44:26 +0100 Subject: installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1 In-Reply-To: <4749.135.196.233.27.1130155986.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <8396A6180D00874B9A19FD728529F06A06B15E@nlhoo1-exc010.aerospace.intra> <4749.135.196.233.27.1130155986.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <26c11a640510240544v7e3e2674t@mail.gmail.com> > Which address do you mean, the MAC address of the ethernet hardware or a > different DECnet address? The MAC address is burned into the hardware and > only gets changed when the machine is in a cluster IIRC, and changing the > DECnet address is different from Phase IV DECnet to DECnet/OSI. > > If you can give us some more information it'll help. > > Cheers, > > -- > adrian/witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? > Or ip address if so, are you using tcpip, multinet or tcpware ? Dan From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Oct 24 08:51:33 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:51:33 -0700 Subject: FlashManager 2000 Message-ID: <200510240651330626.11E2D64F@192.168.42.129> Hi, group, I've been making some progress on getting this mysterious Intel PCMCIA FLASH card I've got to where I can read it. I've discovered, so far, that Intel sold their FLASH card business to another company some years ago (Centennial Technologies). Shortly after that, Centennial went up in a metaphorical ball of flames, and a company called Smart Modular Technology, based in Fremont, CA, bought them up. Up until a few years ago, SMT made available a free utility called 'Flash Manager 2000.' Said utility could read both Intel linear FLASH cards and Centennial's. I've been in contact with SMT, and they tell me that Flash Manager is "discontinued and no longer available," a position that strikes me as odd at best for what was a free utility. So... My search comes right back here. Does anyone happen to have a copy of Flash Manager? Still seeking... Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From vrs at msn.com Mon Oct 24 09:24:39 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:24:39 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/A Front Panels References: Message-ID: From: To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > http://www.protoexpress.com/ > > I have used them for years. excellent product, great price, fast turn, > small quantity OK I had used their "no touch" prototyping service. Unfortunately, it has an 10.9" length limit. Our boards are each 15.5" long. Their other services are normally higher than the shop that I usually use. However, I see that they are having some 40% off promotion, which helps a lot. Their setup costs appear to be about $153, instead of $200 for the shop I was thinking of. Thanks! Vince From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Oct 24 10:27:37 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:27:37 -0400 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <435ABE5D.71774E7D@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4359F290.722FC909@cs.ubc.ca> <20051022121015.F77551@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051024104709.03a84608@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Brent Hilpert may have mentioned these words: >Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > Exam question: what is actually measured by those numeric displays? > >The sucker index. Yup. The numeric ones that I'd seen were just a bank of jumpers [shunts] individually programming each segment of the 7-segment LEDs. This is (roughly) ontopic, as this was around 10 years ago when I did this - I was working as PC Technician (translation for Tony: boardswapper ;-) for the local injun tribe here and one of my cow-orkers[1] needed a new hard drive installed in her machine, a 80486SX 25, complete with the LED number As the Pentium 90's were just coming out at the time, she asked if she could get a "speed upgrade" as well - I told her that I'd talk to the boss and see[2]. I installed the new hard drive and also switched the jumpers/shunts around for the display to show '90' when the turbo button was on or off, and removed the turbo jumper from the motherboard (It didn't seem to do anything anyway) and once she got her computer back, she was *amazed* at how much faster her computer had become! My boss cornered me later about not approving the (obviously costly - P90 kit then cost around $1000USD) upgrade she'd been bragging to everyone about in the department, and I asked him if I really *had* to requisition the 4 or 5 spare jumpers it took for the 'upgrade'... He about fell on the floor laughing. :-) She never caught on when people would snicker at her having the "fastest machine in the department"... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] She was a 'systems analyst' and made 2x-3x more than me... :-O They call them thar peapul "ekspurts." Pffft. [2] Which was a lie... I didn't bother, as I knew he wouldn't approve it; especially for someone who used her computer twice a week to type a couple reports. -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From technobug at comcast.net Mon Oct 24 10:39:44 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:39:44 -0700 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: <200510240926.j9O9Qkvb023784@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510240926.j9O9Qkvb023784@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3436C8D3-CE95-4A64-9024-B891898A1A8C@comcast.net> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 05:00:57 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >>> The 11/730, of course, is mostly PALs (as I said) with some RAM as a >>> control store, 8 off 2901s as the ALU, and an 8085 (I think) to >>> load the >>> control store, etc. One day I am going to look into modifying the >>> microcode of that machine... >>> >> >> To what end? Increased performance? >> > > NO, just for fun... I doubt very much I could improve on the > performance > for running the VAX instruction set. I have not looked at the prints > carefully enough to determine how much of the instruction set is > hard-wired (if any), I wonder if it would be possible to run a > different > instruction set entirely. > > -tony > > Actually, with access to the micro instructions you can often substantially improve the run-time of a given program. The Modcomp II had the microbus accessible for use along with a number of unused instructions. The communications instructions and floating point were implemented using this bus. I implemented an instruction store attached to this bus and which allowed me to create and store new instructions. A friend working on a CS Phd in pattern matching ginned up a program that would find common instruction sequences in a program, deconstruct the microcode, perform optimization on the sequence and then create a new instruction which was substituted for the original sequence. We often got increases of performance of 20% over the original code. IIRC the Burroughs computers would load a different instruction set depending on what language was being used. Tony could create a VAX with Forth as the instruction set ;-) CRC From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Oct 24 11:00:22 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:00:22 -0400 Subject: OLD SCSI tower parts References: <0IOP003EYKHSXQA0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <002501c5d63a$1ce2f3d0$c1781941@game> <4358F252.7060001@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <003801c5d8b4$131567d0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 9:51 AM Subject: Re: OLD SCSI tower parts > Teo Zenios wrote: > > I have an old SCSI tower made by CI Design CO , Irvine California that I am > > trying to find some rails for. I checked the company website but the part > > numbers do not come up in their search engine. > > If you can get a photo maybe someone will recognise them? I've seen > various rails in PCs and drive cabinets and the like over the years! > > cheers > > Jules Ok here are links to the photos: http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=333343 http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=333338 http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=333341 Each picture shows a front an back. I hope they provide enough detail since I had to shrink them a bit to be able to use imagedump.com (200K max size). These were taken using my Umax 1200S scanner connected to my Mac IIfx using Photoshop 3. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 24 11:01:13 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:01:13 -0600 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: References: <200510232253.j9NMrTYs016862@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <435D0549.5010600@jetnet.ab.ca> Johnny Billquist wrote: >I'd say that's wrong. Considering that the VAX8650 microcode engine runs >at 68 MHz and manages about 7 times the 11/780, you're optimistic. >The 8650 have a very large microcode word, actually have three (or was >it four?) microcode engines running in parallell, and some very advanced >cacheing and pipelining to speed it up to get even that far. > > > Also compared to a smaller machine -- remember you have floating point stuff as well as the basic instruction set. I forgot about that too. That is a fast engine -- about 15 ns. > Johnny > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 24 11:17:12 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:17:12 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/A Front Panels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435D0908.3080208@jetnet.ab.ca> Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com wrote: >The problem with that is that it forces us to front hundreds >of dollars, with no indication that we'll ever get it back. > > > What about switches for the front panel, that is a big expense too. >I already have boards sitting around from several projects, >representing hundreds of dollars of investment on my part, >that may never "sell" (even at cost). > > > Just what do you have? >It is a lot better for us to have some idea of the demand, >so we can mitigate how much "over-investment" we want to do. > >Though you are right, that if we found someone who would pick >up the overhead cost of a board order ($200 each time), we >would be way ahead. (Anyone know of a shop that can do a >double-sided 16" board with solder mask and without a steep >setup charge?) > > > If you try Canada you can get 14x17 inch boards done. http://www.apcircuits.com/ >The other major ticket item for this project is the front >plate. Anyone know where we can get those done inexpensively? > > > What about a local machine shop? From lcourtney at mvista.com Mon Oct 24 11:35:04 2005 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:35:04 -0700 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: <3436C8D3-CE95-4A64-9024-B891898A1A8C@comcast.net> Message-ID: > IIRC the Burroughs computers would load a different instruction set > depending on what language was being used. B1700 Lee Courtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of CRC > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 8:40 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Any own an 11/725...? > > > > On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 05:00:57 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > >>> The 11/730, of course, is mostly PALs (as I said) with some RAM as a > >>> control store, 8 off 2901s as the ALU, and an 8085 (I think) to > >>> load the > >>> control store, etc. One day I am going to look into modifying the > >>> microcode of that machine... > >>> > >> > >> To what end? Increased performance? > >> > > > > NO, just for fun... I doubt very much I could improve on the > > performance > > for running the VAX instruction set. I have not looked at the prints > > carefully enough to determine how much of the instruction set is > > hard-wired (if any), I wonder if it would be possible to run a > > different > > instruction set entirely. > > > > -tony > > > > > > Actually, with access to the micro instructions you can often > substantially improve the run-time of a given program. The Modcomp II > had the microbus accessible for use along with a number of unused > instructions. The communications instructions and floating point were > implemented using this bus. > > I implemented an instruction store attached to this bus and which > allowed me to create and store new instructions. A friend working on > a CS Phd in pattern matching ginned up a program that would find > common instruction sequences in a program, deconstruct the microcode, > perform optimization on the sequence and then create a new > instruction which was substituted for the original sequence. We often > got increases of performance of 20% over the original code. > > IIRC the Burroughs computers would load a different instruction set > depending on what language was being used. Tony could create a VAX > with Forth as the instruction set ;-) > > CRC From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Oct 24 11:55:45 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:55:45 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/A Front Panels In-Reply-To: <435D0908.3080208@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <435D0908.3080208@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <435D1211.7060104@msm.umr.edu> woodelf wrote: > > >> The other major ticket item for this project is the front >> plate. Anyone know where we can get those done inexpensively? > put in "metal fabrication" in your google or search engine of your choice and at least here in Orange County, Ca it brings up all the local choices I know of. YMMV, but you could send drawings for a quote to each. A call to each place explaining how you will buy would help you get a more reasonable quote. They usually have the same constraint on their quoting as the board houses do. You actually pay the most at a board house for the holes and cuts in a PC board than you do for the rest of it after a certain point. Unless you add on premium testing, or unless you have a complicated multi layer board with special problems with the fab, you will find that the cost you can't reduce is the number of holes you make. Same goes for the metal work. Also most fab shops dont like to set up for 5 pieces, so the price will be spread over a few pieces for the setup, and run the cost up there. For a professional job i'd figure that you'd pay about $50 to $100 each for 1 to 5 pieces. Less than that would be good. Jim From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Oct 24 12:00:00 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:00:00 +0100 Subject: 11/782 (was: Any own an 11/725...?) In-Reply-To: <8E9D9214-F3D1-4200-839F-862A4C406FC3@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <006c01c5d8bc$668d8890$5b01a8c0@pc1> Huw Davies wrote: > Certainly the only 11/782 I know of (Melbourne University) was split > to get much better performance. Basically all I/O (and hence all of > VMS) had to occur in the "master" 11/780 so all that could be run in > the slave was CPU intensive jobs. As soon as your CPU bound process > wanted to do something other than compute it had to be scheduled in > the "master". The 782 certainly was two 780s joined at the hip. I thought that the SBI was joined up too but that might be the Purdue (?) VAX-11/784. When proper SMP was introduced in VAX/VMS V5.0 (the previous support for the VAX-11/782 being dubbed ASMP), the 782 support was dropped and the choices were either don't upgrade or split into two 780s. > Effectively you had one big global lock on VMS. The story goes that > all the necessary VMS changes to support the 11/782 occurred over a > weekend. Another interesting story concerns the mythical 11/787 (ie > two 11/785s rather than 11/780s). There were rumors of such systems > occurring in a mythical site somewhere near the centre of Australia There would have been no reason that a "787" would not have worked, but given that bad rep that the 782 had, why would anyone have bothered? Interestingly I don't think I've ever come across any technical docs that describe the 782. It does rate a passing mention in the VIDSM. The various "how we wrote support for the 782" articles that I've read fail to mention that it was done over a weekend :-) Somewhere or other I have Kathleen Morse's "how we might do [A]SMP in VMS" memo. I think the memo itself was long enough to take a weekend to write! Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From vrs at msn.com Mon Oct 24 12:41:26 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:41:26 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/A Front Panels References: <435D0908.3080208@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > >I already have boards sitting around from several projects, > >representing hundreds of dollars of investment on my part, > >that may never "sell" (even at cost). > > > Just what do you have? I still have some W076 and M452 replacements, some of each of the Blinkenlights boards, and a big pile of paddle cards for making DEC Negibus and Posibus cables. (The paddle cards are a bigger pile, since they get used 10 and 20 at a time.) I also have the prototype boards for the 8/A console, and for the Posibus RX01/RX02, but those probably shouldn't count, as I haven't tried to recover costs for those yet :-). > >(Anyone know of a shop that can do a > >double-sided 16" board with solder mask and without a steep > >setup charge?) > > > If you try Canada you can get 14x17 inch boards done. > http://www.apcircuits.com/ Thanks! That place has reasonable prices for a couple of boards, but shot up fast if I wanted 5 or 10. > >The other major ticket item for this project is the front > >plate. Anyone know where we can get those done inexpensively? > > > What about a local machine shop? I wish I knew someone at a local machine shop. I figure that if I approach them as a regular customer, they are going to have to quote me about what FPExpress does, to make it worth their time. I'd love to be proven wrong about that (but I haven't done the legwork to find out). Vince From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 24 12:46:57 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:46:57 -0700 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0f8001c5d837$45c0eec0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <20051023062121.16E6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> <435BD4A4.4090900@jetnet.ab.ca> <200510231319170895.11316954@10.0.0.252> <0f8001c5d837$45c0eec0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200510241046570404.15CC4D8E@10.0.0.252> On 10/23/2005 at 9:07 PM John Allain wrote: >My simple answer... >On a 200Mhz Pentium, SimH running VMS feels like a MicroVAX II >(close to a 750). At 700Mhz, it feels like a MicroVax 3500. Basically >a directly proportional increase. Okay, then how fast would one suppose that a Transmeta VLIW implementation would run (replace the "X86 Code Morphing" ROM with your own version of a "VAX emulation" ROM)? Would it most likely run faster than an FPGA implmentation? If so, why bother with the FPGA? Given that there was no single VAX implemenation by DEC, how could this even offend the purists? It would let one use a commodity product (I believe you can buy TM motherboards) and more significantly, allow one to easily repair problems in compatibility. ...just trying to suss out the advantages of using an FPGA version of a relatively complex machine... Cheers, Chuck From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 24 12:50:29 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:50:29 +0200 (CEST) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <200510241700.j9OH02Rb027398@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510241700.j9OH02Rb027398@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > > >> Well since its pretty easy to get microcode to run at 75-100 MHz or so in > >> current cheap FPGAs, I'd say that 10 X a 780 should be trivial... > > > > I'd say that's wrong. Considering that the VAX8650 microcode engine runs > > at 68 MHz and manages about 7 times the 11/780, you're optimistic. > > The 8650 have a very large microcode word, actually have three (or was > > it four?) microcode engines running in parallell, and some very advanced > > cacheing and pipelining to speed it up to get even that far. > > > Not sure, but my guess is that a lot of that sophisticated caching and > pipelining was needed to get the microengine to run at that 68 MHz because of > the chip-chip delays in a large multi-chip design. The 8650 is all ECL, man. We're talking really fast gates here... > Current cheap FPGAs can manage 75-100 MHz with no pipelining. They can > also do 32 bit adds/subtracts in < 7 or so nS. I doubt if the 8650s hardware > could manage that. Would be interesting to know the average number of > microinstructions per macroinstruction on the 8650... It probably can do that. Without actually knowing, I would guess it requires much less than 7 ns for an add/substract. However, since we're talking about a pipelined machine here, you also have register copyback in the pipe, fp stuff, the memory management with page relocation, TLB cache, internal processor registers, and lots of other stuff going on. There is a lot of things to cover. And since you have several micromachines, register updates also needs to get duplicated to the other micromachines. I think I have the documentation for the microcode for the different engines, and I also have the binary microcode files... Anyone want to take a crack at this? :-) And of course, with a VAX, you have the bloody instruction fetch and decode stuff which really is a pain. Get first byte, figure out how many arguments it takes. Get the next byte and start parsing for the first argument, which might be a whole number of bytes, then continue with the next argument. Worst instructions take five arguments if I remember correctly. On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, woodelf wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > >I'd say that's wrong. Considering that the VAX8650 microcode engine runs > >at 68 MHz and manages about 7 times the 11/780, you're optimistic. > >The 8650 have a very large microcode word, actually have three (or was > >it four?) microcode engines running in parallell, and some very advanced > >cacheing and pipelining to speed it up to get even that far. > > > > > > > Also compared to a smaller machine -- remember you have floating point > stuff as well > as the basic instruction set. I forgot about that too. That is a fast > engine -- about 15 ns. Yeah, there are some reasons why I like the 86x0 series... They are quite brutal in their way... A number of patents DEC made on the 86x0 series (among others) were what the fight with Intel about the Pentium and patent infringement was about in the mid 90s. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Oct 24 13:03:57 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <200510241046570404.15CC4D8E@10.0.0.252> References: <20051023062121.16E6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> <435BD4A4.4090900@jetnet.ab.ca> <200510231319170895.11316954@10.0.0.252> <0f8001c5d837$45c0eec0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <200510241046570404.15CC4D8E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/23/2005 at 9:07 PM John Allain wrote: > >> My simple answer... >> On a 200Mhz Pentium, SimH running VMS feels like a MicroVAX II >> (close to a 750). At 700Mhz, it feels like a MicroVax 3500. Basically >> a directly proportional increase. > > Okay, then how fast would one suppose that a Transmeta VLIW implementation > would run (replace the "X86 Code Morphing" ROM with your own version of a > "VAX emulation" ROM)? Would it most likely run faster than an FPGA > implmentation? If so, why bother with the FPGA? Given that there was no > single VAX implemenation by DEC, how could this even offend the purists? > It would let one use a commodity product (I believe you can buy TM > motherboards) and more significantly, allow one to easily repair problems > in compatibility. Transmeta is gone.... > > ...just trying to suss out the advantages of using an FPGA version of a > relatively complex machine... > > Cheers, > Chuck > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Oct 24 13:10:51 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:10:51 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <200510241046570404.15CC4D8E@10.0.0.252> References: <0f8001c5d837$45c0eec0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <20051023062121.16E6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> <435BD4A4.4090900@jetnet.ab.ca> <200510231319170895.11316954@10.0.0.252> <0f8001c5d837$45c0eec0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051024140032.0562ae88@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 10/23/2005 at 9:07 PM John Allain wrote: > > >My simple answer... > >On a 200Mhz Pentium, SimH running VMS feels like a MicroVAX II > >(close to a 750). At 700Mhz, it feels like a MicroVax 3500. Basically > >a directly proportional increase. > >Okay, then how fast would one suppose that a Transmeta VLIW implementation >would run (replace the "X86 Code Morphing" ROM with your own version of a >"VAX emulation" ROM)? Fast. Very fast. Well, at least in the x86 world, as long as the x86 code is compiled 'just right' for it, but that's true for any CPU. I have a Crusoe powered laptop, and Linux from Scratch runs like a raped ape on the thang... 933Mhz Crusoe, runs Winders like a P3-650/700 or so, runs RedHat Enterprise Linux 4 AS like a P3-600, runs LFS like a P3-1.3GHz. It just takes a month to compile Linux w/everything one needs. ;-) > Would it most likely run faster than an FPGA implmentation? Most definitely. Think gigahertz VAX. That would be *kewl*. ;-) > If so, why bother with the FPGA? Erm... because Transmeta's not making CPUs anymore? They found that they can make more money with less overhead licensing their LongRun technology to other chipmakers, than try to make and sell their chips against (primarily) Intel and (secondarily) AMD. And that's sad, because I *love* my Lifebook. (P2120, if ya gotta know. ;-) Too bad it's YAIOT (Yet Another Intel-Orphaned Technology.) > Given that there was no >single VAX implemenation by DEC, how could this even offend the purists? Depends on your definition of "impure." Needless to say (but I will anyway :-) everyone's definition of that will be different. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Oct 24 13:02:12 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: References: <200510241700.j9OH02Rb027398@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200510241811.OAA28103@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > And of course, with a VAX, you have the bloody instruction fetch and > decode stuff which really is a pain. [...] Worst instructions take > five arguments if I remember correctly. Eight instructions take six. Five of them (addp6, subp6, mulp, divp, ashp) are packed-decimal and thus may not be in silicon or microcode, and two (movtc, movtuc) are relatively rare string operations, but the other (index) is simple and (for some languages) heavily used; I'd expect at least that one to be done in silicon/microcode. (And for the other seven, even if they're just traps to macrocode as they are on (eg) the uVII, I *think* you need to do at least rudimentary argument parsing before taking the trap.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Oct 24 13:43:59 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:43:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The 8650 is all ECL, man. We're talking really fast gates here... The 8650 was pretty slow for an ECL machine, as I think it was just 10K. That really is not a big step above something using 74ASxx series technology. 100K, MECL III, 10G and 10E were the fast ECLs. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 24 14:01:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASR32 available in NYC Message-ID: Is anyone interested in a Teletype ASR32 with paper and paper tape? Unknown working condition but in decent physical condition. Comes with some rolls of printout paper and paper tape. Most likely pick-up only in NYC. I'll explain why if you're interested and you e-mail me. Asking price is $100 (might be negotiable). Please contact me off-list for details. P.S. Another ASR33 sold on eBay for $730(!) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 24 14:11:28 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:11:28 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0IOV0060TP9KQY91@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: William Donzelli > Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:43:59 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> The 8650 is all ECL, man. We're talking really fast gates here... > >The 8650 was pretty slow for an ECL machine, as I think it was just >10K. That really is not a big step above something using 74ASxx series >technology. 100K, MECL III, 10G and 10E were the fast ECLs. > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org Yep, 86xx was ECL10k and a little of the early ECLx (early next generation). The 9000 was the ECL100K+ packaging. So an 86xx was still above 10nS for a full adder with lookahead. There is also something that came out of the RISC camp. The more stuff running in (hopefully) lockstep (multiple microengines) the more work on timing margins needs to be done. Critical paths for logic dominate and system speed will be slower. the MicroVAX-I was almost the other end of the spectrum. It was almost how much can be taken out and still be a creditable vax. That simplification was an important clue for the VAX on silicon (uV-II) as to hove much had to be there and how fast. I'd think if you simplify the 780 to eliminate the busses other than local ones and then implement using new tech the scalar result could be quite fast. However if the goal is to make a 780 with all the busses common to it for the IO and storage you'll end up with a more logic to implement the busses than the core CPU in hardware. One look at the microVAX series will show even though the cpu was reduced to trivial number of chips the total board space wraped around it was for busIO. the best contrast is the uVaxII (qbus) and the uVAX2000. They are close in performance (exact same CPU) but miles apart in power needed and chip count. This pattern occurs throughout the industry with just about every cpu that comes to mind. Allison From charlesmorris at direcway.com Mon Oct 24 14:20:36 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris at direcway.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:20:36 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/A front panel Message-ID: <4c460434c42a28.4c42a284c46043@direcway.com> >From: woodelf >What about switches for the front panel, that is a big expense too. There are 20 inexpensive tactile-feedback pushbuttons on the 8/A programmer's panel, not paddle switches. IIRC they were less than $1 each including the separate keytop. Vince would have the exact figure. >>The other major ticket item for this project is the front >>plate. Anyone know where we can get those done inexpensively? >What about a local machine shop? The front panel runs $90 in single quantities from Frontpanelexpress.com. (They get cheaper in quantity too). NO way a machinist with a Bridgeport would be able to do one for that! $90 would pay for 2 hrs labor (if you're lucky) and I think it would take far longer to do each one. Not even counting the engraved, color-filled legend at each LED and switch position. All of that is done by computer-controlled machine in minutes directly from the panel design software's output file. -Charles ps still looking for a bootable OS/8 RL02 pack for my 8/A, can anyone please help? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 24 14:33:21 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:33:21 -0700 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: References: <20051023062121.16E6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> <435BD4A4.4090900@jetnet.ab.ca> <200510231319170895.11316954@10.0.0.252> <0f8001c5d837$45c0eec0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <200510241046570404.15CC4D8E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510241233210448.162DB6F9@10.0.0.252> On 10/24/2005 at 11:03 AM Peter C. Wallace wrote: >Transmeta is gone.... Huh. I hadn't noticed that. Their news page reads: "Transmeta Schedules Annual Stockholders Meeting For November 17, 2005 SANTA CLARA, CA. ? October 4, 2005 ? Transmeta Corporation (NASDAQ: TMTA), the leader in efficient computing technologies, today announced that its Board of Directors has set Thursday, November 17, 2005, as the date for its Annual Meeting of Stockholders. The meeting will be held at the Hilton Santa Clara Hotel located at 4949 Great America Parkway, Santa Clara, California starting at 8 a.m. Pacific Standard Time. " ...and their stock was trading this morning at $1.26 or so... Funny that they still list the Efficeon and Crusoe processors on their web site, so it might still be possible get them. Cheers, Chuck From vrs at msn.com Mon Oct 24 14:36:24 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:36:24 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/A front panel References: <4c460434c42a28.4c42a284c46043@direcway.com> Message-ID: From: > >From: woodelf > >What about switches for the front panel, that is a big expense too. > > There are 20 inexpensive tactile-feedback pushbuttons on the 8/A > programmer's panel, not paddle switches. IIRC they were less than > $1 each including the separate keytop. Vince would have the exact figure. I believe I paid $0.42 each for them. They are JameCo part numbers 155379 and 155389. I bought 100 of each, to get to the first price break. Vince From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 24 14:45:26 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:45:26 -0500 Subject: 11/782 (was: Any own an 11/725...?) In-Reply-To: <006c01c5d8bc$668d8890$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <006c01c5d8bc$668d8890$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <200510241445.26298.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 24 October 2005 12:00, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > Huw Davies wrote: > > Certainly the only 11/782 I know of (Melbourne University) was > > split to get much better performance. Basically all I/O (and hence > > all of VMS) had to occur in the "master" 11/780 so all that could > > be run in the slave was CPU intensive jobs. As soon as your CPU > > bound process wanted to do something other than compute it had to > > be scheduled in the "master". > > The 782 certainly was two 780s joined at the hip. I thought that the > SBI was joined up too but that might be the Purdue (?) VAX-11/784. Purdue is correct, 11/784 isn't. The 11/784 is the quad-CPU version of the 11/782. Purdue's dual-VAX didn't have a DEC model number, because they never (officially) sold it. Sharing the SBI made a much more usable dual-processor machine, where both CPUs could access I/O and *all* of the available memory, not just 4MB of it. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Oct 24 14:48:32 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <200510241233210448.162DB6F9@10.0.0.252> References: <20051023062121.16E6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> <435BD4A4.4090900@jetnet.ab.ca> <200510231319170895.11316954@10.0.0.252> <0f8001c5d837$45c0eec0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <200510241046570404.15CC4D8E@10.0.0.252> <200510241233210448.162DB6F9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/24/2005 at 11:03 AM Peter C. Wallace wrote: > >> Transmeta is gone.... > > Huh. I hadn't noticed that. Their news page reads: > > "Transmeta Schedules Annual Stockholders Meeting For November 17, 2005 > > SANTA CLARA, CA. ? October 4, 2005 ? Transmeta Corporation (NASDAQ: > TMTA), the leader in efficient computing technologies, today announced that > its Board of Directors has set Thursday, November 17, 2005, as the date for > its Annual Meeting of Stockholders. The meeting will be held at the Hilton > Santa Clara Hotel located at 4949 Great America Parkway, Santa Clara, > California starting at 8 a.m. Pacific Standard Time. " > > ...and their stock was trading this morning at $1.26 or so... > > Funny that they still list the Efficeon and Crusoe processors on their web > site, so it might still be possible get them. They only sell IP now and maybe the remaining stock of CPUs (at inflated prices). I know, I'm involved in replacing Transmeta CPUs for an embedded PC design customer they screwed... > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > Peter Wallace From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Oct 24 14:49:02 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:49:02 +0100 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <200510241811.OAA28103@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <007c01c5d8d4$03bd6f60$5b01a8c0@pc1> der Mouse wrote: >> And of course, with a VAX, you have the bloody instruction fetch and >> decode stuff which really is a pain. [...] Worst instructions take >> five arguments if I remember correctly. > > Eight instructions take six. Five of them (addp6, subp6, mulp, divp, > ashp) are packed-decimal and thus may not be in silicon or microcode, > and two (movtc, movtuc) are relatively rare string operations, but > the other (index) is simple and (for some languages) heavily used; > I'd expect at least that one to be done in silicon/microcode. (And > for the other seven, even if they're just traps to macrocode as they > are on (eg) the uVII, I *think* you need to do at least rudimentary > argument parsing before taking the trap.) A favourite game used to be to come up with the longest possible legal VAX instruction. I forget the exact answer but it was in the region of 54 bytes. That's actual I-stream decoded instruction bytes, tables for MOVxxx or whatever do not count. I think the solution is to pick something like ADDP6 and make each of the arguemnts as long as possible (which is five or six bytes or so). The other game was to come up with a scenario for the most page-faults possible while executing a single instruction. I expect that building an Alpha might be straightforward in comparison :-) I still think that a CPU is not a VAX until it passes AXE (and I believe that CHARON-VAX has been so tested, no idea about SIMH). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Oct 24 14:51:57 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:51:57 +0100 Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008001c5d8d4$656f8180$5b01a8c0@pc1> Tony Duell wrote: >>> The 11/730, of course, is mostly PALs (as I said) with some RAM as a >>> control store, 8 off 2901s as the ALU, and an 8085 (I think) to >>> load the control store, etc. One day I am going to look into >>> modifying the microcode of that machine... >> >> To what end? Increased performance? > > NO, just for fun... I doubt very much I could improve on the > performance for running the VAX instruction set. I have not looked at > the prints carefully enough to determine how much of the instruction > set is hard-wired (if any), I wonder if it would be possible to run a > different instruction set entirely. I don't have an exact reference to hand, but one of the "how we built VMS for the uVAX-II" articles in one of the DEC Technical Journals describes how they made a VAX-11/730 behave as a (then only proposed) MicroVAX-II. They did this to check the performance (and correctness) of the subsetting. The 730 was chosen because it was entirely soft. SO I guess you could make it do almost anything within reason. Perhaps it could have been a faster PDP-8 than the PDP-11/60 ... or given the 730's reputation, perhaps not :-) Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Oct 24 14:57:18 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:57:18 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <200510241233210448.162DB6F9@10.0.0.252> References: <20051023062121.16E6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> <435BD4A4.4090900@jetnet.ab.ca> <200510231319170895.11316954@10.0.0.252> <0f8001c5d837$45c0eec0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <200510241046570404.15CC4D8E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051024155207.03a843b0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 10/24/2005 at 11:03 AM Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > >Transmeta is gone.... > >Huh. I hadn't noticed that. Their news page reads: "Gone" is an oversimplification, but they're certainly not the same company they were 2-3 years ago, especially WRT hardware. :-/ >Funny that they still list the Efficeon and Crusoe processors on their web >site, so it might still be possible get them. It's still possible to get Motorola 6809's, but Motorola hasn't made any for quite some time. I guess it'll just depend on: 1) how long the NOS stuff will hang around, and/or 2) if anyone purchases licenses to build new VLIW/Crusoe processors. Maybe VIA will start making 'em after the C3 series dies (think: Cyrix). The last time I checked (last year) the eval boards for Crusoe/Efficeon chips were rather expensive for the hobbyist. It'd be cheaper to pick up a Crusoe-based laptop mobo or machine, and use that for a possible platform, altho I'll admit that it's certainly not the *ideal* hacking platform available. Sometimes, one must balance function with cost... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Oct 24 15:17:55 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:17:55 +0100 Subject: 11/782 (was: Any own an 11/725...?) In-Reply-To: <200510241445.26298.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <008501c5d8d8$065163e0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Purdue is correct, 11/784 isn't. The 11/784 is the quad-CPU version > of the 11/782. Purdue's dual-VAX didn't have a DEC model number, > because they never (officially) sold it. I remember reading the paper describing Purdue's VAX and it was definitely home-brew in the sense that they bought bits and built something. So I'm not surprised that DEC never sold it. I can find no evidence that DEC ever sold a VAX-11/784 (or any quad processor VAX-11/780). I don't doubt that someone might have cobbled something together in a lab on a rainy day (there were enough DEC research labs gluing stuff together to see what happened!), but I see no evidence that anything like that was ever done for a customer. All the stuff I see on the net is just "not many people know..." type of stuff with no credible sources (actually, mostly no sources whatsoever). I know that there were "VAXen that never shipped" and I might be able to remember the names of some of them if pushed (Raven, for one). But I never heard even a whispering of such a VAX while inside DEC and there is nothing that says "784" in the Options & Modules List (except for a raft of power supplies, some Mxxx[x] boards and some DECmate bits). Admittedly the only non-scanned searchable-text one I have is from 1994, but it still has the VAX-11/780 and a boatload of PDP-11s in there, so it would be odd if the mythical VAX-11/784 dropped off by accident. So unless someone digs out some evidence, I'll just choose not to believe that DEC ever built a 784 (and after building the 782, I cannot believe that they would have even tried :-)). One of the VAX handbooks does have a section in the back that suggests using butterfly configs of VAX-11/780s with dual-ported memory to perform FFTs and the like. No suggestion that such a config would be sold as anything other than individual VAXen and associated memory boxes. I do know that some fool somewhere went and gave names to groups of clustered nautilus VAXes and (IIRC) someone else went and repeated the mistake for at least one config of VAXft machines, but at least they had the decency to produce glossy brochures so we could see how confused they were trying to make us :-) Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Oct 24 15:00:16 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:00:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <007c01c5d8d4$03bd6f60$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <007c01c5d8d4$03bd6f60$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <200510242023.QAA29146@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > A favourite game used to be to come up with the longest possible > legal VAX instruction. I forget the exact answer but it was in the > region of 54 bytes. That's actual I-stream decoded instruction > bytes, tables for MOVxxx or whatever do not count. Yeah, with CASEx you can create an "instruction" that's as long as you want (within the limitations of the VAX, of course, such as 32-bitness and how it can't be longer than 1G or 3G, depending on whether an instruction can cross address-space boundaries). > I think the solution is to pick something like ADDP6 and make each of > the arguemnts as long as possible (which is five or six bytes or so). I don't see how to get longer than six bytes (xxxxxxx(Rx)[Rx]) there, which still gives you only 37 bytes. But if you use EMODH (a two-byte opcode) with two 16-byte immediate operands, you can get 2+17+6+17+6+6 or, yes, 54 - your memory seems accurate. :) > The other game was to come up with a scenario for the most > page-faults possible while executing a single instruction. Hmmm...MOVTC: two for the instruction itself, two per operand while fetching operands indirection, two for each length, one for the fill char, 513 for the from data, 513 for the to data, two for the table data, two each for the system pages holding the PTEs mapping the instruction, each operand indirection, the from data, the to data, the table data, and one for the fill char: total 1066. Did I miss anything? Unless you count interrupts and traps as being "while executing" the interrupted or trapping instruction, but that is uninteresting. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 24 16:03:51 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051024104709.03a84608@mail.30below.com> References: <4359F290.722FC909@cs.ubc.ca> <20051022121015.F77551@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20051024104709.03a84608@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20051024140043.S75758@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: > anything anyway) and once she got her computer back, she was *amazed* at > how much faster her computer had become! It's also fun to REVERSE the numbers, so that slow says "66", and full speed says "33", and see how often people slow down their computers to get the higher number. ... or set the jumpers to show upside down, or left to right reversed numbers From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 16:30:42 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8/A front panel In-Reply-To: <4c460434c42a28.4c42a284c46043@direcway.com> Message-ID: <20051024213042.77174.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> --- charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: > The front panel runs $90 in single quantities from > Frontpanelexpress.com. (They get cheaper in quantity > too). NO way a machinist with a Bridgeport would be > able to do one for that! $90 would pay for 2 hrs > labor (if you're lucky) and I think it would take > far longer to do each one. > emachineshop.com is an option, its like frontpanelexpress (i.e., you draw the part) except they can do 3D parts (front panels included) __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 24 17:00:42 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:00:42 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/A front panel In-Reply-To: <20051024213042.77174.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051024213042.77174.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200510241500420799.16B49F28@10.0.0.252> >--- charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: > > The front panel runs $90 in single quantities from > Frontpanelexpress.com. (They get cheaper in quantity > too). NO way a machinist with a Bridgeport would be > able to do one for that! $90 would pay for 2 hrs > labor (if you're lucky) and I think it would take > far longer to do each one. That's a heckuva good price for a one-off. Experience is also a factor--these guys appear to do nothing but panels, so you're more likely to get it right. Cheers, Chuck From tradde at excite.com Mon Oct 24 18:03:36 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:03:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RX01 felt pad Message-ID: <20051024230336.82496109F9E@xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> Anyone know how to replace the little felt pad on an RX01 floppy. It is the pad that is opposite the head to hold the floppy against the head. One of mine has come off, and without a dentist mirror thingy I can't see what holds it in place. Are these available still? _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 24 18:48:07 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:48:07 -0700 Subject: Ringout on Overland Data TX-8/TX-16 cable? In-Reply-To: <20051008221704.A5146@kallisti.com> References: <200510090324.j993OFn4067506@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051008221704.A5146@kallisti.com> Message-ID: <200510241648070841.1716F658@10.0.0.252> On 10/8/2005 at 10:17 PM Allan Hessenflow wrote: (cable ringout) Since Overland appears to use edge connectors with numeric and alpha labeling, I decided to translate the cable wiring into regular all-numeric pins. In addition, I've added the signal names. What I'm going to do is make a very simple 62 pin D-sub to 2 50 pin header adapter that screws onto the back of the card. The connection to the drive will be made with a pair of ordinary 50-conductor ribbon cables. You can find the regurgitated information here: http://www.sydex.com/misc/overcbl.html Thanks again, Allan! Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 24 18:30:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:30:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9845 C with 280 option startup failure In-Reply-To: <435B3D16.2090000@gmx.net> from "Tequi Lizer" at Oct 23, 5 09:34:46 am Message-ID: > > I recently acquired a HP 9845C option 280 (was looking for it for a > really long time). I don't know all the option codes for the 9845. I assume at least this has a 98770 colour monitor nad the high-speed (bit-slice) language processor option. Firstly, try contacting the HPCC secretary, Dave Colver (I think the details are on the HPCC web site, http://www.hpcc.org/ , if not, ask me). If you ask him nicely, he might send you a reverse-engineered schematic for the 9845. This is for a 9845B with the high-speed lagnuage processor and the 98780 enhanced mono monitor, so it's not directly applicable to your machine, but it might be a start. Be warned that it's over 200 pages long (that is _just_ a schematic). The HP service manual is on http://www.hpmuseum.net, along with a manual for the colour monitor. These do not seem to cover the high-speed language processor at all, and they are boardswapper guides with no schematics or even pinouts. But you probably should read those too. I would love to see inside the colour monitor (that is, I'd like to pull one apart and really examine the boards. I am told there are some 2901's in there for the video processor. The 98780 mono monitor has an HP 64 pin ASIC for this. > > The machine is in an overall good condition, however it hangs during > memory test ("MEMORY TEST IN PROGRESS"), even after cleaning all board > connectors, resocketing all ROMs & repeated control-stop's. Before Hmmm... Probably toally irrelevant, but there's a signal from the monitor to the I/O processor -- basically a frame-rate interrupt, that IIRC has to be present for the bus arbitration to start up properly. If you run the machine without a monitor there's a turn-on fixture that you have to plug into the LH monitor connector (on the video interface PCB) to provide this. > entering nirvana the printer outputs a couple of memory addresses. > Although lots of defects may be responsible, I assume there is a > combination of both a bad RAM chip and a ROM failure, since a RAM defect > alone should (?) not crash the system during the test. Maybe... Maybe not... How much do you know about the buses of this machine? It's not at all simple. There are 2 processors -- the PPU (Peripheral Processor Unit) on the left side and the LPU (Language Processor Unit) on the right side. Each processor has buffers/latches on the board that connect it to one of 2 buses (I think HP called them X and Y, I call them L and P for obvious reasons). The L bus carries all the memory on the LH boards, and the ROMs in the RH drawer. The P bus carries all the memroy on the RH board and the ROMs in the LH drawer (I think I've remembered all that correctly). Also, the test side of the video display does DMA from main memory via the buffers on the PPU board, it transfers a line of text at a time to buffer storage on the interface PCB and thnece to the text board in the monitor. What I am wondering is that if there's a bus problem, or the arbitration logic (which is spread between the 2 processor boards) is playing up, you could get some really odd failures. > The printout looks like this: > > 000000 100112 052525 > 000000 110112 052525 > 000000 120112 052525 > 000000 130112 052525 > > I guess the first number is the block ID, the next is the memory address > within the block, and the last number is the test pattern, each in octal > representation. > > Does anyone have an idea > > - how to really interpret the memory test printouts and Alas not, and I don't think there's anything in the service manual. The schematic would at least relate addresses and bits to actual chips. > > - how to check the ROMs for bad data? > > Maybe there is anyone out there who did the job to read out the contents > of his 9845 ROMs (they are all in sockets) for a direct comparison. I haven't done yet. What I can tell you is that these are not totally standard ROMs, they have internal address latchs (the buses on the 9845, like that of the 9825, being multipexed address and data). You ahve to deassert and reassert the chip select line after changing the address to latch the new address in. I hope the above is a start. I'll carry on thinking about it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 24 18:51:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:51:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: <3436C8D3-CE95-4A64-9024-B891898A1A8C@comcast.net> from "CRC" at Oct 24, 5 08:39:44 am Message-ID: > > Actually, with access to the micro instructions you can often > substantially improve the run-time of a given program. The Modcomp II I am something of a PERQ-fanatic, so I am well aware of this. The classic PERQs have user-modifyable microcode, and the hardware is not designed for a particular isntruction set (there is no hard-wired instruction decoding at all, unlike, say, a PDP11/45), so you can pretty much do what you like. Under POS (PERQ OS or Pascal OS, depending on which book you read), you were not expected to write any machine or assembly langage (Q-codes). The assember was not included in the OS distribution, and the manual doesn't really epxlain the Q-codes. But the microcode assember and placer were included, the manual does describe user-written microcode. For some things, like directly accessing I/O ports (say for custom hardware -- like the tape streamer interface hack) you _have_ to use microcode on the PERQ. But you can also use it to speed up critical routines in your program (just don't try and improve the raster operation microcode, you won't do it. Period.) -tony From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Oct 24 19:39:58 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:39:58 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Do you add non-microprocessor systems to this list, such as MSI/SSI machines like the PDP 11/34? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ronald Wayne Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 1:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Retrochallenge, 2005 > Hmmm ... are you the same Ronald Wayne who was the third founder of > Apple and sold out for $800? No. That is an alias I used while signing up for gmail. I realised that it was a very silly alias when I signed up for this list. My name is Byron Desnoyers. Anyhow, I'll add processors when people suggest that they want to use it. The general rule of thumb is that some version the processor must have been introduced prior to March 1993. Processors like the 8085, 6809, and Z80 are dead simple to add (I just have to confirm what they are). I'm sure that some of you guys can throw much more difficult decisions my way too. On 6/14/05, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > Hmmm ... are you the same Ronald Wayne who was the third founder of > Apple and sold out for $800? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Ronald Wayne > Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 2:30 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Retrochallenge, 2005 > > Bah, don't let that serve as an excuse. All three of those processors > have been added to the list. > > On 6/14/05, John Hogerhuis wrote: > > Worse than that... the Z80, 8085, and 6809 (the first two of which I > > actually use on a daily basis) are not in the list of qualifying > > processors. > > > > -- John. > > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 24 19:41:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 01:41:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: RX01 felt pad In-Reply-To: <20051024230336.82496109F9E@xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com> from "Tim" at Oct 24, 5 07:03:36 pm Message-ID: > > > Anyone know how to replace the little felt pad on an RX01 floppy. > It is the pad that is opposite the head to hold the floppy > against the head. One of mine has come off, and without a dentist > mirror thingy I can't see what holds it in place. Are these available > still? Normally they;re lightly glued into position, maybe with something like double-sided sticky tape. You should be able to lift the spring-loadrd pressure arm up far enough to see it, maybe you have to dismantle the disk holder fist (this is not too hard, from what I rememmber you take off the handle and the front panel, unscrew the screws holding the pivot strip-things in place and slide it out. Be warned that if you remove the axle for the pressure arm you will have problems. There's a torsion spring in there that will jump out. I had to do this once, and to get it back, I had to make a dummy pin (1/8" diameter, long enough to fit in the prssure arm but not stick out), then fit the spring to the pressure arm and fit the dummy pin, put that back into the head carriagem, then press out the dummy with the real axle and fit the circlip. -tony From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Oct 24 19:50:44 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:50:44 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Discovery and Restoration In-Reply-To: <4359BF62.1090107@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051024184342.00bd79c8@localhost> See http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters/pix/DEC/index.html for a PDP-8i front panel, as well as one for a PDP-11/05 and an 11/34. Any use? At 12:26 AM 10/22/2005 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Folks. > >Being a student of Engineering at Carleton University, every day I walked >by an old PDP-8 that was on display in the halls. However, over the years >it got bashed up and abused, since there was nothing protecting it. > >Recently, I spoke to the chair of the department, and he (excitedly) >agreed to provide me with space and the machine to restore, in hopes that >the faculty could display it in its original glory (and even better if it >is functional!). > >I started the restoration this past Thursday. It shall be one hell of a >job to say the least. The machine was on display for close to 20 years, I >figure, and as such took quite a beating. > >One of the parts in the worst condition is the bank of switches on the >front. These were trashed by students walking by and playing around with >them over the year. > >So, the statistics for switches: > >7 Brown Switches irreparable >4 White Switches irreparable > >6 Brown Switches reparable >5 White Switches reparable > >2 White Switches are perfectly intact >1 Brown Switch is perfectly intact > >Also, unfortunately, certain flipchips (according to my schematics, >anyways) are missing. The ADC option was installed, I know for sure, while >the memory parity and power control stuff was not. At any rate, the first >11 flipchips from rows A and B on the processor side of things are missing >in action. > >The following flipchips are missing: > >W501 >R302 * 2 >S603 >R002 * 5 >S111 * 9 >R111 >S603 * 2 >S602 * 2 >R405 * 2 >S202 >S203 * 2 >S107 * 3 >S151 >R203 >G209 * 3 >R202 * 3 >R503 > >The power supply unit for this machine has already blown in my face once, >any advice on how to test/ensure that the PSU is functional? > >I'm keeping a log of my progress at http://www.cowpig.ca and would >appreciate any feedback people offer and any suggestions people have over >the course of the project. > >I'd really like to try to get this machine working. If anybody has any of >the parts needed, and is willing to part with them, I would greatly >appreciate it! > >Regards, >Phil. [Love] Many a girl has gotten into trouble by obeying that boyological urge. --Katharine Brush (born 1893) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Oct 24 19:54:09 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:54:09 -0500 Subject: Front panels Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051024195335.0b6634c8@localhost> I have some front panels laying about: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters/pix/DEC/index.html There is a wicked pretense that one has been informed. But no such thing has truly occurred! A mere slogan, an empty litany. No arguments are heard, no evidence is weighed. It isn't news at all, only a source of amusement for idlers. --W. Gibson --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From pechter at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 20:14:18 2005 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:14:18 -0400 Subject: 11/782 In-Reply-To: <008501c5d8d8$065163e0$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <008501c5d8d8$065163e0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <435D86EA.20200@gmail.com> a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: >All the stuff I see on the net is just "not many people know..." >type of stuff with no credible sources (actually, mostly no >sources whatsoever). I know that there were "VAXen that never >shipped" and I might be able to remember the names of some of >them if pushed (Raven, for one). But I never heard even a >whispering of such a VAX while inside DEC and there is nothing >that says "784" in the Options & Modules List (except for >a raft of power supplies, some Mxxx[x] boards and some >DECmate bits). Admittedly the only non-scanned searchable-text >one I have is from 1994, but it still has the VAX-11/780 and >a boatload of PDP-11s in there, so it would be odd if the >mythical VAX-11/784 dropped off by accident. > >So unless someone digs out some evidence, I'll just choose >not to believe that DEC ever built a 784 (and after building >the 782, I cannot believe that they would have even tried :-)). > > >Antonio > > > What was the name of the dual 11/785 (made by upgrading two halves of the 11/782 to the 11/785... I seem to remember seeing 11/785-2 stickers in some upgrades to Field Service. (These were for non-fcc upgrades of 11/780's to 11/785's... IIRC) Was the dual 11/785 given the 11/784 name -- or was it an 11/787 or something like that. Too damned long since I left 78A/79J Field Service at DEC. Bill From ken at seefried.com Mon Oct 24 20:23:38 2005 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:23:38 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <200510250051.j9P0pFiM036109@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510250051.j9P0pFiM036109@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <435D891A.7020802@seefried.com> From: Johnny Billquist > I think I have the documentation for the microcode for > the different engines, and I also have the binary microcode > files... Do you have the microcode files for the 11/730? The Am2901 VHDL (and other formats) is freely availible and well understood and fits several to an FPGA (even small ones covered by free tools). The rest of the logic on an 11/730 CPU isn't that terrible complicated. Given access to the microcode, I'd imagine it would be a reasonable project to whip up an ersatz 11/730, validate that it works correctly, then proceed to optimize and otherwise improve the design (add in pipelining, test, add in FPU, test, add in cache, test, migrate to faster FPGA family, test). Iterative, rather than shooting the moon first run. You could even short-cut some of the FPGA work. I don't recall what the microsequencer looks like on the 11/730, but if it's the usual Am29{09,10,11}, there is at least one shop that still (as of at least last year) makes an 8 x Am2901 + sequencer single chip ASIC that runs at something like 20MHz. Or you can find NOS for the IDT 49c402 that is 4 x Am2901s. This way of thinking won't result in the fastest VAX possible, but I venture it has a better chance of resulting in an actual working VAX. > Anyone want to take a crack at this? :-) Not me...:-) Ken From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 24 20:30:39 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:30:39 -0500 Subject: help requested in Arkansas rescue Message-ID: <013901c5d903$b5001d20$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I had a rescue set up in northwest arkansas. Then the owner got in a car accident and was out of action for months. Now the family is working with me to finish off picking up the collection. But now that I'm talking to the family, they are telling me a far different story about the size of the collection. I was planning on going down this weekend to pick it up in a 14seat van (sans seats). However, I've just been informed that the computers and docs and such is approximately 7 foot tall by 10 foot by 12 foot. This is unlikely to fit, and I'm not sure I can do two trips (due to wifes surgery coming up, very soon I won't be able to go out for a few days for a few months). Of course, the family wants the stuff gone "now". Anyone able to help with pickup, storage, etc.? If so, please email me off-list. The collection is a very complete collection of most known home computers back to pre-dos IBM machines with all software & docs. Do I really even want this... *sigh* Kind regards, Jay West From appleto at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 20:47:57 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:47:57 -0400 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/24/05, Julian Wolfe wrote: > Do you add non-microprocessor systems to this list, such as MSI/SSI machines > like the PDP 11/34? I was adding machines as per request at the end, and the PDP11 never did make it. Turnout was awfully low anyway. Something like five people: one Atari 800, two Apple II's, and two Macintosh users. Ah well. At least most of the people were using early personal computers. From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Mon Oct 24 21:46:41 2005 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:46:41 -0500 Subject: FlashManager 2000 Message-ID: Bruce, Take a look at http://www.teampctechnology.com/product_detail.php?id=298 and http://www.smartm.com/product/m_tech.cfm#1 for information that might be useful (though you might already know about the second company). There is a program called CardWizard 2000 (retail price $70) that might work for you, at http://www.systemsoft.com/l-2/l-3/products-cardwizard2000.htm Bob Message: 11 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:51:33 -0700 From: "Bruce Lane" Subject: FlashManager 2000 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <200510240651330626.11E2D64F at 192.168.42.129> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Hi, group, I've been making some progress on getting this mysterious Intel PCMCIA FLASH card I've got to where I can read it. I've discovered, so far, that Intel sold their FLASH card business to another company some years ago (Centennial Technologies). Shortly after that, Centennial went up in a metaphorical ball of flames, and a company called Smart Modular Technology, based in Fremont, CA, bought them up. Up until a few years ago, SMT made available a free utility called 'Flash Manager 2000.' Said utility could read both Intel linear FLASH cards and Centennial's. From gtulloch at shaw.ca Mon Oct 24 22:45:40 2005 From: gtulloch at shaw.ca (gtulloch at shaw.ca) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:45:40 -0500 Subject: Homebrew newsgroups / forums? Message-ID: Hi all: I'm building a Z80 based computer as a stepper motor controller, and it would be nice if there was a homebrew newsgroup to ask questions on since I don't think this is the group to do so - any recommendations? Yes, I know I'm 30 years behind the curve, and yes, I know a microcontroller would save me some time, but where's the fun in that? Regards, Gord From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Oct 24 22:58:32 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:58:32 -0500 Subject: help requested in Arkansas rescue In-Reply-To: <013901c5d903$b5001d20$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <013901c5d903$b5001d20$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20051024225832.384510a5.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:30:39 -0500 "Jay West" wrote: > I had a rescue set up in northwest arkansas. Then the owner got in a car > accident and was out of action for months. Now the family is working with me > to finish off picking up the collection. > > But now that I'm talking to the family, they are telling me a far different > story about the size of the collection. I was planning on going down this > weekend to pick it up in a 14seat van (sans seats). However, I've just been > informed that the computers and docs and such is approximately 7 foot tall > by 10 foot by 12 foot. This is unlikely to fit, and I'm not sure I can do > two trips (due to wifes surgery coming up, very soon I won't be able to go > out for a few days for a few months). Of course, the family wants the stuff > gone "now". > > Anyone able to help with pickup, storage, etc.? If so, please email me > off-list. The collection is a very complete collection of most known home > computers back to pre-dos IBM machines with all software & docs. Do I really > even want this... *sigh* > That sounds like the kind of instance where if immediate evacuation is needed, a one month rental of a storage locker is the way to go. Has anybody here ever done such a thing? The locker could be rented for not that high a cost, and all the hardware cached there so there's a month to get it all out and the family doesn't have to deal with it and/or get upset and start pitching things. It could even become a cooperative thing, i.e. shares are sold to pay for storage, fuel, etc., and materials and systems that result are divided accordingly. That said, I probably can't get to Arkansas personally to be much a part of such an operation. > Kind regards, > > Jay West > > -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Oct 25 00:08:23 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:08:23 +0200 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <0IOD00928DMWVMI5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOD00928DMWVMI5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1130216903.17425.12.camel@fortran> On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 17:43 -0400, Allison wrote: > >Circuit Cellar had a Z8000 and on card for the PC once. Does anybody > >remember > >just what it ran? Other than 386's was there any other add on cards for > >the PC? > Cards to add other CPUs to PC are many. At any time there were: > > 8751 (multiples for Mandelbrot calulations) > Z80 > Other X86 > Z8000 > 68000 > 16032 > T-11 (PDP-11) Norsk Data made a NORD-100 on a 3/4 or full-length ISA board. It cost millions and millions of kroner (7 kr ~= 1 $) in RnD in the 1980s. I think it was one of their biggest flops. I think the amount of units sold barely made three digits. It might have been the first ND-100 in VLSI. It would trap in and out of ND-100 mode using a special keycode on the keyboard in the PC's they sold them with. When in ND mode it would use the x86 as an I/O processor, and communicate with it using a memory window. IBM also had S/370 MCA boards implementing a microcoded S/370 on a MC68000. > All come to mind. Many had no OS as they relied on the host processor for > support. The '100 had a to me unknown amount of RAM, but probably no more than 1MB and no less than 128KB. It ran SINTRAN on the onboard RAM. I know of the existance of one and will snap a shot or two of it next time I'm there. -toresbe From news at computercollector.com Tue Oct 25 00:20:36 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 01:20:36 -0400 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <1130216903.17425.12.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <001a01c5d923$d5a0b8d0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Whoa, OS/2 was * just * on my mind tonight. I need to know (as precisely as possible) when Warp Beta II debuted. Also, I need to know it right away, is urgent... Thanks, Evan -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tore S Bekkedal Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 1:08 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Releasing OS/2 On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 17:43 -0400, Allison wrote: > >Circuit Cellar had a Z8000 and on card for the PC once. Does anybody > >remember just what it ran? Other than 386's was there any other add > >on cards for the PC? > Cards to add other CPUs to PC are many. At any time there were: > > 8751 (multiples for Mandelbrot calulations) > Z80 > Other X86 > Z8000 > 68000 > 16032 > T-11 (PDP-11) Norsk Data made a NORD-100 on a 3/4 or full-length ISA board. It cost millions and millions of kroner (7 kr ~= 1 $) in RnD in the 1980s. I think it was one of their biggest flops. I think the amount of units sold barely made three digits. It might have been the first ND-100 in VLSI. It would trap in and out of ND-100 mode using a special keycode on the keyboard in the PC's they sold them with. When in ND mode it would use the x86 as an I/O processor, and communicate with it using a memory window. IBM also had S/370 MCA boards implementing a microcoded S/370 on a MC68000. > All come to mind. Many had no OS as they relied on the host processor for > support. The '100 had a to me unknown amount of RAM, but probably no more than 1MB and no less than 128KB. It ran SINTRAN on the onboard RAM. I know of the existance of one and will snap a shot or two of it next time I'm there. -toresbe From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Oct 25 00:21:48 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:21:48 +0200 Subject: ID: Memorex 3266? Message-ID: <1130217708.17425.20.camel@fortran> Hey, I've come across a Memorex 3266 half-inch tape drive (well, actually several, but only one seems near to operable condition). picture: http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/3266.jpeg Anyone recognize it and know what densities and interface(s) it used? Guesses are also appreciated ;) It's an autoloader, right? I've been googling, and also bitsavers has nothing on it. Grateful for any hints. -toresbe From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 00:59:09 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:59:09 -0700 Subject: ID: Memorex 3266? In-Reply-To: <1130217708.17425.20.camel@fortran> References: <1130217708.17425.20.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <200510242259090812.186AA2D3@10.0.0.252> My best guess--Pertec interface, 1600-6250 bpi, made mid to late 80's, 125 ips. On 10/25/2005 at 7:21 AM Tore S Bekkedal wrote: >Hey, I've come across a Memorex 3266 half-inch tape drive (well, >actually several, but only one seems near to operable condition). > >picture: http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/3266.jpeg > >Anyone recognize it and know what densities and interface(s) it used? >Guesses are also appreciated ;) It's an autoloader, right? > >I've been googling, and also bitsavers has nothing on it. Grateful for >any hints. > >-toresbe From news at computercollector.com Tue Oct 25 01:07:26 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 02:07:26 -0400 Subject: Releasing OS/2 In-Reply-To: <001a01c5d923$d5a0b8d0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <002001c5d92a$6022e2c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Err, nevermind. Got it. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 1:21 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Releasing OS/2 Whoa, OS/2 was * just * on my mind tonight. I need to know (as precisely as possible) when Warp Beta II debuted. Also, I need to know it right away, is urgent... Thanks, Evan -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tore S Bekkedal Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 1:08 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Releasing OS/2 On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 17:43 -0400, Allison wrote: > >Circuit Cellar had a Z8000 and on card for the PC once. Does anybody > >remember just what it ran? Other than 386's was there any other add > >on cards for the PC? > Cards to add other CPUs to PC are many. At any time there were: > > 8751 (multiples for Mandelbrot calulations) Z80 Other X86 Z8000 > 68000 > 16032 > T-11 (PDP-11) Norsk Data made a NORD-100 on a 3/4 or full-length ISA board. It cost millions and millions of kroner (7 kr ~= 1 $) in RnD in the 1980s. I think it was one of their biggest flops. I think the amount of units sold barely made three digits. It might have been the first ND-100 in VLSI. It would trap in and out of ND-100 mode using a special keycode on the keyboard in the PC's they sold them with. When in ND mode it would use the x86 as an I/O processor, and communicate with it using a memory window. IBM also had S/370 MCA boards implementing a microcoded S/370 on a MC68000. > All come to mind. Many had no OS as they relied on the host processor > for > support. The '100 had a to me unknown amount of RAM, but probably no more than 1MB and no less than 128KB. It ran SINTRAN on the onboard RAM. I know of the existance of one and will snap a shot or two of it next time I'm there. -toresbe From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Oct 25 01:39:35 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:39:35 -0700 Subject: ID: Memorex 3266? In-Reply-To: <1130217708.17425.20.camel@fortran> References: <1130217708.17425.20.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <435DD327.7060906@msm.umr.edu> Tore S Bekkedal wrote: >Hey, I've come across a Memorex 3266 half-inch tape drive (well, >actually several, but only one seems near to operable condition). > >picture: http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/3266.jpeg > >Anyone recognize it and know what densities and interface(s) it used? >Guesses are also appreciated ;) It's an autoloader, right? > >I've been googling, and also bitsavers has nothing on it. Grateful for >any hints. > >-toresbe > > > > http://sales.gsfc.nasa.gov/vwlotpic.cgi?SN=80322620050001&LN=0040 The drives appear to be part of a Memorex IBM mainframe compatable system. the drives may be pertec, or may be storagetek, or may be proprietary to the controller that interfaced them to the mainframe system. since these are nasa mainframe tapes, let's hope that they got all the data read before they scrapped the above hardware. I also found numerous references to there being 3490 and probably 3480 compatable drives on this same set of subsystems. also processor.com lists datarefelects computers, http://www.datareflects.com, as having refurbed units, they may respond to a query about the units. If you could post links to the actual cables or interface connecctors, that might help. They might be scsi, but would be differential if so, because single ended was not allowable outside cabinets. The pertec would probably be 2 50 pin connectors, but there was never a really official cable, as the recent overland data discussion indicates, and they made up their own. There was a storage tek drive to controller interface, and they might be oem drives from storage tek. That interface had three db-37 connectors and three cables. if they were following the IBM lead, they would have a pair of cables into the controller placed to be routed under the floor. I think one of them would have been a channel type able, one power. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 02:02:14 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:02:14 -0700 Subject: ID: Memorex 3266? In-Reply-To: <435DD327.7060906@msm.umr.edu> References: <1130217708.17425.20.camel@fortran> <435DD327.7060906@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200510250002140483.18A46209@10.0.0.252> How about this one: http://www.listserv.dfn.de/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind8803&L=cyber-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=1286 I don't think they were SCSI! Cheers, Chuck On 10/24/2005 at 11:39 PM jim stephens wrote: >The drives appear to be part of a Memorex IBM mainframe compatable >system. the drives >may be pertec, or may be storagetek, or may be proprietary to the >controller that >interfaced them to the mainframe system. > >since these are nasa mainframe tapes, let's hope that they got all the >data read before they >scrapped the above hardware. I also found numerous references to there >being 3490 and >probably 3480 compatable drives on this same set of subsystems. > >also processor.com lists datarefelects computers, >http://www.datareflects.com, as having >refurbed units, they may respond to a query about the units. > >If you could post links to the actual cables or interface connecctors, >that might help. > >They might be scsi, but would be differential if so, because single >ended was not >allowable outside cabinets. The pertec would probably be 2 50 pin >connectors, but >there was never a really official cable, as the recent overland data >discussion indicates, >and they made up their own. > >There was a storage tek drive to controller interface, and they might be >oem drives >from storage tek. That interface had three db-37 connectors and three >cables. > >if they were following the IBM lead, they would have a pair of cables >into the >controller placed to be routed under the floor. I think one of them >would have >been a channel type able, one power. > >Jim From news at computercollector.com Tue Oct 25 02:18:12 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 03:18:12 -0400 Subject: CCAG show postponed until Dec. 4 Message-ID: <002901c5d934$4316ed70$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Classic Computing & Gaming show was supposed to be this weekend but is postponed: http://www.ccagshow.com/ Is anyone planning to go? I could use a correspondent for the newsletter! Please contact me OFF-LIST if you're interested in writing about this event. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From dwight at ca2h0430.amd.com Mon Oct 24 15:19:19 2005 From: dwight at ca2h0430.amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 9845 C with 280 option startup failure Message-ID: <200510242019.NAA21749@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Tequi Lizer" > >I recently acquired a HP 9845C option 280 (was looking for it for a >really long time). > >The machine is in an overall good condition, however it hangs during >memory test ("MEMORY TEST IN PROGRESS"), even after cleaning all board >connectors, resocketing all ROMs & repeated control-stop's. Before >entering nirvana the printer outputs a couple of memory addresses. >Although lots of defects may be responsible, I assume there is a >combination of both a bad RAM chip and a ROM failure, since a RAM defect >alone should (?) not crash the system during the test. > >The printout looks like this: > >000000 100112 052525 >000000 110112 052525 >000000 120112 052525 >000000 130112 052525 ---snip--- Hi It looks like it is more likely that you are having a data bus buffer or address buffer issue than a massive RAM/ROM failure. You might look at things with a 'scope or logic analyser. Dwight From rmay635703 at aol.com Mon Oct 24 15:43:28 2005 From: rmay635703 at aol.com (rmay635703 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:43:28 -0400 Subject: Innovion PC info needed? Converting simms to dipps or Where do I find 1mx4 dipps? Message-ID: <8C7A6F2B93B05A7-1360-1EF7C@MBLK-M24.sysops.aol.com> I have several old Innovion CASI Branded PCs computer photography PCs from the 80s (pictures here http://www.colortron.tk) I would like to expand the memory on several units to the full 4mb on the board, but I am finding it impossible to get 1mx4 20pin Dipp RAM chips. It would be nice if there were such a thing as a simm to dipp converter :) or sources of said chips. My other problem is with an old tektronix colorquick 4696 that works with my old photo systems. I need the dipp switch settings for it so I can get it to do a head clean (yes it has one) The printer is one of the old INK WELL type of printers and the heads clog easily, I ended up spraying the heads with distilled water and it worked for all of one copy. If you have a manual or dipp settings for this oldie it would be appreciated. Any ideas? Also on a side note I am looking for information, photos, really anything relating to the very old 1976 CASI / Innovion Apollo VPX Computer photo system. I have been trying to get one for years but everyone either tossed or sold their systems decades ago, the unit could take pictures and print them in B/W all with a whopping intel 8 bit processor. They were printed in 8pt text 14"x16". So your picture was ASCII ART!!! From John.Miramonti at attglobal.net Mon Oct 24 21:11:38 2005 From: John.Miramonti at attglobal.net (John Miramonti) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:11:38 -0400 Subject: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? Message-ID: <00e801c5d909$6f4dcd30$6601a8c0@hypertherm.com> Hi, I was your email regarding the Radio Shack Electronic LearningLab. I picked one up for my daughter, but it came without the manuals. I'm trying to get a copy. You mentioned "...The PDF file on the RS web site doesn't list things in enough detail.". I've been trying to download the PDF manual, but the upgraded web site apparently doesn't have it. Could you email me a copy? Or could I arrange to get a copy of your manuals? I could trade you a detailed list of components, with part numbers, catalog numbers, etc. Thanks, John Miramonti John.Miramonti at attglobal.net From Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com Tue Oct 25 02:37:35 2005 From: Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com (Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:37:35 +0200 Subject: installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1 Message-ID: <8396A6180D00874B9A19FD728529F06A06B162@nlhoo1-exc010.aerospace.intra> Hey, the MAC address doesn't tell me anything, but the ethernet address I'm talking about is printed on the back of the equipment and is like; 08-00-2B-BF-94-C4 The following items we want to replace have such an address; DEC server VXT2000+, model VX20A-EA DEC server 700 COMM 8 port, model DSRVW-ZA DEC server 250, model DSRVP-A And of course our DEC3000 (rackmounted model: PE43B-XA, series BA47R) itsself has an ethernet address. As stated before; we are running on VMS version 6.1 and our system is 11 years old, but still running smooth. We have now bought 'new' 2nd hand items for replacements in case one of all items run down so we can replace it immediatly, but we are now only missing the protocol to do so for the ethernet address items. Hope this helps for solving the installation problem. Rgds, Rinaldo -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Witchy Sent: maandag 24 oktober 2005 14:13 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1 On Mon, October 24, 2005 11:41 am, Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com said: > > Does anyone know how to install, on a alpha computer (DEC3000) running > with VMS version 6.1 software, the same equipment with a new Ethernet > address? Which address do you mean, the MAC address of the ethernet hardware or a different DECnet address? The MAC address is burned into the hardware and only gets changed when the machine is in a cluster IIRC, and changing the DECnet address is different from Phase IV DECnet to DECnet/OSI. If you can give us some more information it'll help. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any attachment(s) sent with it are intended exclusively for the addressee(s), and may not be used by, opened by, passed on to, or made available for use to, any person other than the addressee(s). Stork rules out any and all liabilities resulting from any electronic transmission. From kelly at catcorner.org Mon Oct 24 09:24:30 2005 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:24:30 -0400 Subject: FlashManager 2000 Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A336A3@mail.catcorner.org> > So... My search comes right back here. Does anyone happen to > have a copy of Flash Manager? > Not a lot of help, but see: http://www.systemsoft.com/l-2/l-3/20010320_fm.htm Kelly From kelly at catcorner.org Mon Oct 24 09:33:20 2005 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:33:20 -0400 Subject: FlashManager 2000 Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A336A4@mail.catcorner.org> > So... My search comes right back here. Does anyone happen to > have a copy of Flash Manager? Sorry for the multiple replies, but there are: >From http://www.smartm.com/product/m_tech.cfm a reference to: ftp://cust-ftp.smartm.com/Public/memcard.inf and From: http://www.magicram.com/FAQFlash.htm Q. Why won't my Linear Flash card work under Windows 2000? A. Linear Flash Cards do not come with drivers, it has always been the OS vendor's responsibility to include support for these devices. Unlike previous versions of Windows, the Flash drivers traditionally included on Windows distributions are not included with Windows 2000. The following information explains a work around to get Windows 2000 to recognize and use Linear Flash Cards. Be certain Windows 2000 has been upgraded with at least Service Pack 1 and the host hardware supports PC Cards. OEM installed Windows 2000 should not exhibit problems, but systems upgraded from older Windows versions may need confirmation that their hardware is compatible. Please note that MagicRAM provides this work around as a customer service and does not guarantee that will work with every system configuration. 1. During the Windows 2000 hardware setup process choose Display a list of known drivers... instead of Search for a suitable driver... 2. Select the category Memory technology driver 3. Select the M-Systems DiskOnChip2000 driver from listed manufacturer M-Systems Flash Disk Pioneers 4. Click Yes on the Update Driver Warning message, continue and click Finish to complete the setup process, click No from the restart Windows message 5. Access the Device Manager and highlight M-Systems DiskOnChip2000 from the category Memory technology driver (it has the conflict symbol) 6. Access the M-Systems DiskOnChip2000 and click Update Driver from the Driver tab 7. Choose Display a list of known drivers... instead of Search for a suitable driver... when the options appear 8. You should now have more default driver options, select the Centennial PCMCIA Memory Card driver from listed manufacturer Centennial Technologies, Inc. (other drivers may work, but the Centennial driver was used successfully in testing) 9. Click Yes on the Update Driver Warning message, continue and click Finish to complete the setup process, click Ok from the properties window then Yes from the restart Windows message 10. When Windows restarts, you should see a new drive letter and icon from "My Computer" or Windows Explorer From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 03:01:11 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 01:01:11 -0700 Subject: Homebrew newsgroups / forums? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510250101110144.18DA58FA@10.0.0.252> On 10/24/2005 at 10:45 PM gtulloch at shaw.ca wrote: >I'm building a Z80 based computer as a stepper motor controller, and it >would be nice if there was a homebrew newsgroup to ask questions on since >I don't think this is the group to do so - any recommendations? Nothing at all wrong with a Z80, particularly in some of its newer incarnations, like the Rabbit Semiconductor parts. It sounds as if one of the Robotics newsgroups might be right up your alley: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?lnk=gh&sel=33584095 They deal with smaller microprocessors and things like motor control quite a bit. Lots of homebrewers there. Cheers, Chuck From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Oct 25 04:50:41 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 02:50:41 -0700 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051024155207.03a843b0@mail.30below.com> References: <20051023062121.16E6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> <435BD4A4.4090900@jetnet.ab.ca> <200510231319170895.11316954@10.0.0.252> <0f8001c5d837$45c0eec0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <200510241046570404.15CC4D8E@10.0.0.252> <5.1.0.14.2.20051024155207.03a843b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <435DFFF1.1040005@pacbell.net> Roger Merchberger wrote: > The last time I checked (last year) the eval boards for Crusoe/Efficeon > chips were rather expensive for the hobbyist. It'd be cheaper to pick up > a Crusoe-based laptop mobo or machine, and use that for a possible > platform, altho I'll admit that it's certainly not the *ideal* hacking > platform available. Sometimes, one must balance function with cost. The principal problem with such a project is that the VLIW architecture is not publicly documented, nor is the source code to CMS available. It is treated as "black box" microcode from the customer's point of view. That's really too bad, as we had quite a few neat hacks internally. It's an odd feeling to have a debugger open on a CPU's "microcode", though it more closely resembles an OS kernel or a very large device driver. Bill (Transmeta engineer) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 25 06:21:07 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:21:07 -0400 Subject: Homebrew newsgroups / forums? Message-ID: <0IOW00E6YY5EY470@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Homebrew newsgroups / forums? > From: gtulloch at shaw.ca > Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:45:40 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Hi all: > >I'm building a Z80 based computer as a stepper motor controller, and it >would be nice if there was a homebrew newsgroup to ask questions on since >I don't think this is the group to do so - any recommendations? > >Yes, I know I'm 30 years behind the curve, and yes, I know a >microcontroller would save me some time, but where's the fun in that? > >Regards, > Gord Well the Z80 is still current. Still being made and used. However, to use it for stepper control is a lot of CPU for trivial task. With that aside, thre are plenty here that know the Z80 well. Allison From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 06:35:20 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:35:20 +0100 Subject: help requested in Arkansas rescue In-Reply-To: <20051024225832.384510a5.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <013901c5d903$b5001d20$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20051024225832.384510a5.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <26c11a640510250435t65b61f39r@mail.gmail.com> > That sounds like the kind of instance where if immediate evacuation is needed, a one month rental of a storage locker is the way to go. Has anybody here ever done such a thing? The locker could be rented for not that high a cost, and all the hardware cached there so there's a month to get it all out and the family doesn't have to deal with it and/or get upset and start pitching things. > > It could even become a cooperative thing, i.e. shares are sold to pay for storage, fuel, etc., and materials and systems that result are divided accordingly. That said, I probably can't get to Arkansas personally to be much a part of such an operation. > -- > http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html > I got a storeage locker for that cray I picked up, as it would not fit through the door at home. It's still there 9 months later. So unless you have a plan with specific timings. You are likely to just leave it there because it's easier. Dan From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Oct 25 07:26:51 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:26:51 +0100 Subject: help requested in Arkansas rescue In-Reply-To: <26c11a640510250435t65b61f39r@mail.gmail.com> References: <013901c5d903$b5001d20$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20051024225832.384510a5.chenmel@earthlink.net> <26c11a640510250435t65b61f39r@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <435E248B.4030707@gjcp.net> Dan Williams wrote: >>That sounds like the kind of instance where if immediate evacuation is needed, a one month rental of a storage locker is the way to go. Has anybody here ever done such a thing? The locker could be rented for not that high a cost, and all the hardware cached there so there's a month to get it all out and the family doesn't have to deal with it and/or get upset and start pitching things. >> >>It could even become a cooperative thing, i.e. shares are sold to pay for storage, fuel, etc., and materials and systems that result are divided accordingly. That said, I probably can't get to Arkansas personally to be much a part of such an operation. > > >>-- >>http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html >> > > > > I got a storeage locker for that cray I picked up, as it would not fit > through the door at home. It's still there 9 months later. So unless > you have a plan with specific timings. You are likely to just leave > it there because it's easier. > > Dan Does the storage locker cost less than the equivalent amount of aggro from dragging a Cray home? How many peace offerings has it saved you? Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Oct 25 07:29:15 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:29:15 +0100 Subject: FlashManager 2000 In-Reply-To: <200510240651330626.11E2D64F@192.168.42.129> References: <200510240651330626.11E2D64F@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <435E251B.8040606@gjcp.net> Bruce Lane wrote: > Hi, group, > > I've been making some progress on getting this mysterious Intel PCMCIA FLASH card I've got to where I can read it. I've discovered, so far, that Intel sold their FLASH card business to another company some years ago (Centennial Technologies). Shortly after that, Centennial went up in a metaphorical ball of flames, and a company called Smart Modular Technology, based in Fremont, CA, bought them up. Went up in a flash, eh? Gordon. From emu at ecubics.com Tue Oct 25 07:43:09 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 06:43:09 -0600 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <200510231319170895.11316954@10.0.0.252> References: <20051023062121.16E6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> <435BD4A4.4090900@jetnet.ab.ca> <200510231319170895.11316954@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <435E285D.1010001@ecubics.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Slightly OT: How fast (in comparison to the original 11/780) do PC-based > emulators run? My only close-up exposure with this line was a couple of > years with an 11/750. It didn't seem like a speed demon then. On a "top of the line PC" (WARNING, OXYMORON!), they should have passed 100 VUPS by now. From bqt at Update.UU.SE Tue Oct 25 08:38:27 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:38:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <200510251234.j9PCXLb8042171@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510251234.j9PCXLb8042171@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, Ken Seefried wrote: > From: Johnny Billquist > > I think I have the documentation for the microcode for > > the different engines, and I also have the binary microcode > > files... > > Do you have the microcode files for the 11/730? Might still have the TU58 tapes around, yes. No TU58 drive to read them, though. > The Am2901 VHDL (and other formats) is freely availible and well > understood and fits several to an FPGA (even small ones covered by free > tools). The rest of the logic on an 11/730 CPU isn't that terrible > complicated. Given access to the microcode, I'd imagine it would be a > reasonable project to whip up an ersatz 11/730, validate that it works > correctly, then proceed to optimize and otherwise improve the design > (add in pipelining, test, add in FPU, test, add in cache, test, migrate > to faster FPGA family, test). Iterative, rather than shooting the moon > first run. Maybe. I think that there is probably a lot more logic outside the 2901 than inside... We're still talking several boards of logic here... I doubt all of that is microcode memory, 2901s and 74xx series stuff. :-) > You could even short-cut some of the FPGA work. I don't recall what > the microsequencer looks like on the 11/730, but if it's the usual > Am29{09,10,11}, there is at least one shop that still (as of at least > last year) makes an 8 x Am2901 + sequencer single chip ASIC that runs at > something like 20MHz. Or you can find NOS for the IDT 49c402 that is 4 > x Am2901s. > > This way of thinking won't result in the fastest VAX possible, but I > venture it has a better chance of resulting in an actual working VAX. It might be a possiblity. Not that I'll do it. But if someone really wanted this to happen, it's one possibility. Might be easier to talk with someone who still have an 11/730 running, to read his tapes though. > > Anyone want to take a crack at this? :-) > > Not me...:-) :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 25 08:43:50 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:43:50 -0400 Subject: help requested in Arkansas rescue References: <013901c5d903$b5001d20$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20051024225832.384510a5.chenmel@earthlink.net> <26c11a640510250435t65b61f39r@mail.gmail.com> <435E248B.4030707@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <002401c5d96a$224c1760$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon JC Pearce" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 8:26 AM Subject: Re: help requested in Arkansas rescue > Does the storage locker cost less than the equivalent amount of aggro > from dragging a Cray home? How many peace offerings has it saved you? > > Gordon What would be the point of having the machine in a storage locker unpowered and far enough away that you will rarely go there to look at it rust? From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Oct 25 08:58:38 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:58:38 -0400 Subject: installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1 References: <8396A6180D00874B9A19FD728529F06A06B162@nlhoo1-exc010.aerospace.intra> Message-ID: <17246.14862.972960.765340@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Rinaldo" == Rinaldo Eversdijk writes: Rinaldo> Hey, the MAC address doesn't tell me anything, but the Rinaldo> ethernet address I'm talking about is printed on the back of Rinaldo> the equipment and is like; Rinaldo> 08-00-2B-BF-94-C4 Rinaldo> The following items we want to replace have such an address; Rinaldo> DEC server VXT2000+, model VX20A-EA DEC server 700 COMM 8 Rinaldo> port, model DSRVW-ZA DEC server 250, model DSRVP-A And of Rinaldo> course our DEC3000 (rackmounted model: PE43B-XA, series Rinaldo> BA47R) itsself has an ethernet address. Rinaldo> As stated before; we are running on VMS version 6.1 and our Rinaldo> system is 11 years old, but still running smooth. We have Rinaldo> now bought 'new' 2nd hand items for replacements in case one Rinaldo> of all items run down so we can replace it immediatly, but Rinaldo> we are now only missing the protocol to do so for the Rinaldo> ethernet address items. Hope this helps for solving the Rinaldo> installation problem. I'm getting a bit lost in your wording here. Why do you care about the Ethernet address? I don't think DEC stuff does. The Ethernet MAC address in most DEC stuff -- anything other than a PC NIC -- should live in a 32x8 PROM, quite possibly socketed. You can swap it out. Or you could blast your own if you can find the PROM, which may not be easy. The pattern should be in one of the public DECnet specs (either the Ethernet Datalink spec, or the Node Product Architecture spec). It contains several copies of the MAC address with a checksum, and a check pattern. paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 25 09:00:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:00:20 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0IOX00H6B5IQFXJ0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: Johnny Billquist > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:38:27 +0200 (CEST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, Ken Seefried wrote: > >> From: Johnny Billquist >> > I think I have the documentation for the microcode for >> > the different engines, and I also have the binary microcode >> > files... >> >> Do you have the microcode files for the 11/730? > >Might still have the TU58 tapes around, yes. No TU58 drive to read them, >though. I must be thee rare one that maintaines TU58s for use. > >> The Am2901 VHDL (and other formats) is freely availible and well >> understood and fits several to an FPGA (even small ones covered by free >> tools). The rest of the logic on an 11/730 CPU isn't that terrible >> complicated. Given access to the microcode, I'd imagine it would be a >> reasonable project to whip up an ersatz 11/730, validate that it works >> correctly, then proceed to optimize and otherwise improve the design >> (add in pipelining, test, add in FPU, test, add in cache, test, migrate >> to faster FPGA family, test). Iterative, rather than shooting the moon >> first run. > >Maybe. I think that there is probably a lot more logic outside the 2901 >than inside... We're still talking several boards of logic here... I doubt >all of that is microcode memory, 2901s and 74xx series stuff. :-) Bet on it as the 2901 only provides 16 registers and I think VAX had more. It's also a slow device. >> You could even short-cut some of the FPGA work. I don't recall what >> the microsequencer looks like on the 11/730, but if it's the usual >> Am29{09,10,11}, there is at least one shop that still (as of at least >> last year) makes an 8 x Am2901 + sequencer single chip ASIC that runs at >> something like 20MHz. Or you can find NOS for the IDT 49c402 that is 4 >> x Am2901s. >> >> This way of thinking won't result in the fastest VAX possible, but I >> venture it has a better chance of resulting in an actual working VAX. > >It might be a possiblity. Not that I'll do it. But if someone really >wanted this to happen, it's one possibility. Might be easier to talk with >someone who still have an 11/730 running, to read his tapes though. Not I. I must ahve at least 16 2901C and 2911 and they are not that pretty without a lot of glue. More correctly, for some archetectures it's ugly and for some a very easy set of peices to use. The biggest problem is multiplexed external busses and that does impact design and speed. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 25 09:10:35 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:10:35 -0400 Subject: help requested in Arkansas rescue Message-ID: <0IOX00H0S5ZTBFL0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: help requested in Arkansas rescue > From: "Teo Zenios" > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:43:50 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gordon JC Pearce" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 8:26 AM >Subject: Re: help requested in Arkansas rescue > > > >> Does the storage locker cost less than the equivalent amount of aggro >> from dragging a Cray home? How many peace offerings has it saved you? >> >> Gordon > >What would be the point of having the machine in a storage locker unpowered >and far enough away that you will rarely go there to look at it rust? One good reason is that someday resources will appear to fully utilize it. That can also be read as keeping it from the scrap heap until such time. The other which is ugly is people storing and loosing to financial disaster or other physical disaster(weather, flood or fire) large amounts of hardware that end up as scrap. I've had to pass on gathering some hardware for lack of long term supportable space and in other cases where I've collected more than I could sold off excess so it would not be lost to the trash. I've also had hardware that I did trash as likley of little to no value historically or as $$$ (mostly PCs of the late XT clone and AT clones and the 386s). To me long term supportable space for systems and board is stuff that can be accessed fairly easily and allows actual test, repair and use. Allison From gilcarrick at comcast.net Tue Oct 25 09:52:52 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:52:52 -0500 Subject: Documation Card reader on ebay In-Reply-To: <1130216903.17425.12.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <200510251503.j9PF3A5x003906@keith.ezwind.net> 300 CPM Documation Card reader on eBay 8713845191 This guy has several of them. They came from Harris County election processing. They are in Bryan Texas and in nice shipping containers. Gil From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Oct 25 09:57:54 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:57:54 -0400 Subject: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? In-Reply-To: <0IOT00JUJVRE2KV0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOT00JUJVRE2KV0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <067A82F0-8FB9-4DBC-A581-3F30047F49D2@xlisper.mv.com> Okay, I'm stupid! I forgot to write down which direction the fan was moving air when I removed the defective fan. It looks like the H7861 has two fans one of which sucks air in and the other blows it out. Is that correct? Or do they both suck air in? The one I'm replacing is the one that is mounted at an angle. The one I haven't touched is setup to suck air into the box. How should I mount the diagonal fan? To suck air in or out? Thanks, David On Oct 23, 2005, at 3:36 PM, Allison wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? >> From: David Betz >> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:55:07 -0400 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> >> I found a replacement fan for the H7861. It is the same size and same >> wattage but it has only three blades instead of the five that the >> original had. Is this likely to produce enough air flow to prevent >> the system from frying itself? Or should I keep looking for a five >> blade fan? >> >> > > I'd use it for testing and try to find the right one. > > > Allison > From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 10:29:59 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:29:59 -0400 Subject: 11/782 In-Reply-To: <435D86EA.20200@gmail.com> References: <008501c5d8d8$065163e0$5b01a8c0@pc1> <435D86EA.20200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <435E4F77.1020306@gmail.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > >> All the stuff I see on the net is just "not many people know..." >> type of stuff with no credible sources (actually, mostly no >> sources whatsoever). I know that there were "VAXen that never >> shipped" and I might be able to remember the names of some of >> them if pushed (Raven, for one). But I never heard even a >> whispering of such a VAX while inside DEC and there is nothing >> that says "784" in the Options & Modules List (except for >> a raft of power supplies, some Mxxx[x] boards and some >> DECmate bits). Admittedly the only non-scanned searchable-text >> one I have is from 1994, but it still has the VAX-11/780 and >> a boatload of PDP-11s in there, so it would be odd if the >> mythical VAX-11/784 dropped off by accident. >> >> So unless someone digs out some evidence, I'll just choose >> not to believe that DEC ever built a 784 (and after building >> the 782, I cannot believe that they would have even tried :-)). >> >> >> Antonio >> >> >> > What was the name of the dual 11/785 (made by upgrading two halves of > the 11/782 to the 11/785... > > I seem to remember seeing 11/785-2 stickers in some upgrades to Field > Service. (These were for non-fcc upgrades of 11/780's to 11/785's... IIRC) > > Was the dual 11/785 given the 11/784 name -- or was it an 11/787 or > something like that. > > Too damned long since I left 78A/79J Field Service at DEC. Everything I've ever seen has referred to it as the 11/787. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 25 10:30:53 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:30:53 -0400 Subject: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? Message-ID: <0IOX00HOG9QCG8V0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? > From: David Betz > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:57:54 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Okay, I'm stupid! I forgot to write down which direction the fan was >moving air when I removed the defective fan. It looks like the H7861 >has two fans one of which sucks air in and the other blows it out. Is >that correct? Or do they both suck air in? The one I'm replacing is >the one that is mounted at an angle. The one I haven't touched is >setup to suck air into the box. How should I mount the diagonal fan? >To suck air in or out? Same direction. Allison > >Thanks, >David > >On Oct 23, 2005, at 3:36 PM, Allison wrote: > >>> >>> Subject: Re: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? >>> From: David Betz >>> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:55:07 -0400 >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> >>> I found a replacement fan for the H7861. It is the same size and same >>> wattage but it has only three blades instead of the five that the >>> original had. Is this likely to produce enough air flow to prevent >>> the system from frying itself? Or should I keep looking for a five >>> blade fan? >>> >>> >> >> I'd use it for testing and try to find the right one. >> >> >> Allison >> From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 25 11:21:16 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:21:16 -0400 Subject: help requested in Arkansas rescue References: <0IOX00H0S5ZTBFL0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <005601c5d980$20325d20$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 10:10 AM Subject: Re: help requested in Arkansas rescue > One good reason is that someday resources will appear to fully utilize it. > That can also be read as keeping it from the scrap heap until such time. > > The other which is ugly is people storing and loosing to financial > disaster or other physical disaster(weather, flood or fire) large amounts > of hardware that end up as scrap. > > I've had to pass on gathering some hardware for lack of long term supportable > space and in other cases where I've collected more than I could sold off excess > so it would not be lost to the trash. I've also had hardware that I did trash > as likley of little to no value historically or as $$$ (mostly PCs of the late > XT clone and AT clones and the 386s). To me long term supportable space for > systems and board is stuff that can be accessed fairly easily and allows actual > test, repair and use. > > > > Allison Do you mean you save items at your own expense because someday some museum might want it, or you intend to hit the lottery and move the machine to a facility setup for it and other gems? Personally anything with real historical value should be in a museum where others can see it and learn about it. Most items that end up in a personal collection that are not mainstream collectable just end up getting trashed when that person dies or if lucky some other collector gets to hide it in their warehouse away from view until they too die (or lose funding for the storage). I have about all the machines I can setup and run without tripping over them or using living space for their storage, although I need to rethink my magazine and software storage methods. I don't see a problem trashing machines made in the millions as long as you offer them to others who might want want them for whatever reason. Having some space to actually work on the collection is very important too. I guess the reason I replied to begin with is that while a Cray system does sound cool in the geek sense (I picture circuit boards immersed in fleuro-inert when I hear the name) I just don't see the average collector having the time and resources to get it running and actually do something with it. Once the cool factor wears out what are you getting out of having the thing in storage? From allain at panix.com Tue Oct 25 11:21:29 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:21:29 -0400 Subject: Homebrew newsgroups / forums? References: Message-ID: <007101c5d980$28a265e0$6401a8c0@ibm23xhr06> > I'm building a Z80 based computer as a stepper motor controller For talking to power equipment from logic level stuff look to the TIP120 power transistor to get you there. Magazines: Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar / Nuts & Volts / Make Magazine are all in the ballpark. John A. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Oct 25 11:27:23 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: help requested in Arkansas rescue In-Reply-To: <002401c5d96a$224c1760$0500fea9@game> References: <013901c5d903$b5001d20$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20051024225832.384510a5.chenmel@earthlink.net> <26c11a640510250435t65b61f39r@mail.gmail.com> <435E248B.4030707@gjcp.net> <002401c5d96a$224c1760$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <200510251628.MAA14982@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Does the storage locker cost less than the equivalent amount of >> aggro from dragging a Cray home? How many peace offerings has it >> saved you? > What would be the point of having the machine in a storage locker > unpowered and far enough away that you will rarely go there to look > at it rust? It saves it from a worse fate, buying time to locate someone who wants it and arrange to get it there, of course. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 25 11:28:35 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:28:35 +0100 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... Message-ID: <435E5D33.1050905@yahoo.co.uk> OK, I'm wanting to build a board with an 8 bit CPU (probably Z80, possibly 6502) and a floppy controller IC on board with the intention of hanging it off my PC (via serial or parallel, undecided yet) and allowing me to read and write *most* formats from various 1980's 8 bit micros... Intel's 8271 looks like a possibility at the moment, but I thought I'd poll the list for alternative ideas too. FM support is of course critical - MFM is less of an issue as the host PC can handle that. I've never built any kind of computer from scratch, so it'll be a useful experience. I figure on putting just enough code in ROM to support downloading of actual firmware to the device over whatever the link is to the PC, as that should save a lot of headache! Hopefully RAM requirements will be low enough that I can go the SRAM route and avoid messing around with DRAM refresh (although IIRC the Z80 has much of the necessary stuff built in...) cheers Jules From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Oct 25 11:33:12 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:33:12 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:23:38 EDT." <435D891A.7020802@seefried.com> Message-ID: <200510251633.j9PGXC5O014165@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ken Seefried wrote: >From: Johnny Billquist >> I think I have the documentation for the microcode for >> the different engines, and I also have the binary microcode >> files... > >Do you have the microcode files for the 11/730? hmmm. I've been know to wizzle a microcode bit or two :-) I'd be interested in seeing source for the 11/730 microcode. -brad From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Oct 25 11:35:10 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:35:10 -0400 Subject: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? In-Reply-To: <0IOX00HOG9QCG8V0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOX00HOG9QCG8V0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <7A3A66A6-B88E-4DD1-8F6B-B323A93DD7E1@xlisper.mv.com> Thanks! Since the remaining fan was mounted to blow air into the box, I'll assume that both should be blowing air in rather than sucking it out. On Oct 25, 2005, at 11:30 AM, Allison wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? >> From: David Betz >> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:57:54 -0400 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> >> Okay, I'm stupid! I forgot to write down which direction the fan was >> moving air when I removed the defective fan. It looks like the H7861 >> has two fans one of which sucks air in and the other blows it out. Is >> that correct? Or do they both suck air in? The one I'm replacing is >> the one that is mounted at an angle. The one I haven't touched is >> setup to suck air into the box. How should I mount the diagonal fan? >> To suck air in or out? >> > > Same direction. > > Allison > > > >> >> Thanks, >> David >> >> On Oct 23, 2005, at 3:36 PM, Allison wrote: >> >> >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? >>>> From: David Betz >>>> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:55:07 -0400 >>>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>>> >>>> >>>> I found a replacement fan for the H7861. It is the same size and >>>> same >>>> wattage but it has only three blades instead of the five that the >>>> original had. Is this likely to produce enough air flow to prevent >>>> the system from frying itself? Or should I keep looking for a five >>>> blade fan? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> I'd use it for testing and try to find the right one. >>> >>> >>> Allison >>> >>> > > From allain at panix.com Tue Oct 25 11:37:58 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:37:58 -0400 Subject: help requested in Arkansas rescue References: <0IOX00H0S5ZTBFL0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <005601c5d980$20325d20$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <009401c5d982$761e4bc0$6401a8c0@ibm23xhr06> > Once the cool factor wears out what are you getting out of > having the thing in storage? I think some people (a lot on this list) are planning on playing with their hoardes when they reach retirement. All we ask is whenever an item can't be obtained or kept for whatever reason, to contact the Classiccmp Rescuers at: cctalk at classiccmp.org first before it goes out of sight. John A. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Oct 25 11:39:21 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:39:21 -0400 Subject: Documation Card reader on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:52:52 CDT." <200510251503.j9PF3A5x003906@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200510251639.j9PGdL6X014593@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Gil Carrick" wrote: >300 CPM Documation Card reader on eBay > >8713845191 > >This guy has several of them. They came from Harris County election >processing. They are in Bryan Texas and in nice shipping containers. oh! oh! I've been dieing for one of those but refused to pay $300 (ok, I'm cheap about some things and absolutely foolish about others). -brad From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 25 11:36:54 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:36:54 +0100 Subject: Homebrew newsgroups / forums? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435E5F26.5060803@yahoo.co.uk> gtulloch at shaw.ca wrote: > Hi all: > > I'm building a Z80 based computer as a stepper motor controller, and it > would be nice if there was a homebrew newsgroup to ask questions on since > I don't think this is the group to do so - any recommendations? I was looking for similar resources last year and couldn't find anything. There are some good websites around - try http://www.z80.info - but I couldn't find any forums/newsgroups. I think alt.comp.homebuilt has died, and if not it's certainly full of people these days wanting to put coloured lights into their PCs rather than actually building machines :) > Yes, I know I'm 30 years behind the curve, and yes, I know a > microcontroller would save me some time, but where's the fun in that? I'm with you there... it's a useful learning experience anyway, plus in my case I've got a lot of spare Z80-related ICs in the junk box, so it'd be nice to put them to use! cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 25 11:49:27 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:49:27 -0400 Subject: help requested in Arkansas rescue Message-ID: <0IOX00188DDABUT0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: help requested in Arkansas rescue > From: "Teo Zenios" > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:21:16 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Allison" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 10:10 AM >Subject: Re: help requested in Arkansas rescue > > >> One good reason is that someday resources will appear to fully utilize it. >> That can also be read as keeping it from the scrap heap until such time. >> >> The other which is ugly is people storing and loosing to financial >> disaster or other physical disaster(weather, flood or fire) large amounts >> of hardware that end up as scrap. >> >> I've had to pass on gathering some hardware for lack of long term >supportable >> space and in other cases where I've collected more than I could sold off >excess >> so it would not be lost to the trash. I've also had hardware that I did >trash >> as likley of little to no value historically or as $$$ (mostly PCs of the >late >> XT clone and AT clones and the 386s). To me long term supportable space >for >> systems and board is stuff that can be accessed fairly easily and allows >actual >> test, repair and use. >> >> >> >> Allison > >Do you mean you save items at your own expense because someday some museum >might want it, or you intend to hit the lottery and move the machine to a >facility setup for it and other gems? None of the above though those are possible. It's more like I have a collection of systems and boards that are actively if only intermittently used. The key is functional and usable. the latter requires some space and local storage. >Personally anything with real historical value should be in a museum where >others can see it and learn about it. Most items that end up in a personal >collection that are not mainstream collectable just end up getting trashed >when that person dies or if lucky some other collector gets to hide it in >their warehouse away from view until they too die (or lose funding for the >storage). My evenual demise is provided for. As to historical, I have stuff I've used some since day one (Altair 8800 sn200 that no ware hear original) and some I've built. Most of the real history is lost just looking at it. It's what I did, why and how the equipment and I were invoved with various things. Same for the library of documentation tt's there to allow me to research, repair and occasionally relax with. >I have about all the machines I can setup and run without tripping over them >or using living space for their storage, although I need to rethink my >magazine and software storage methods. I'm at saturation. Occasionally I reorganize or mod a closet and get some space. >I guess the reason I replied to begin with is that while a Cray system does >sound cool in the geek sense (I picture circuit boards immersed in >fleuro-inert when I hear the name) I just don't see the average collector >having the time and resources to get it running and actually do something >with it. Once the cool factor wears out what are you getting out of having >the thing in storage? Thats a personal question I suspect. But with some machines its preserving the last known or one of the very few. PDP12s were never common and few are operable that do exist. Whos got a complete IBM360?? The Cray was only a few in existance and fewer remain. If your lucky enough to snag one and store it.. there's something special about the last one. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 25 12:04:19 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:04:19 -0400 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... Message-ID: <0IOX001H2E21BWS0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:28:35 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >OK, I'm wanting to build a board with an 8 bit CPU (probably Z80, >possibly 6502) and a floppy controller IC on board with the intention of >hanging it off my PC (via serial or parallel, undecided yet) and >allowing me to read and write *most* formats from various 1980's 8 bit >micros... > >Intel's 8271 looks like a possibility at the moment, but I thought I'd >poll the list for alternative ideas too. FM support is of course >critical - MFM is less of an issue as the host PC can handle that. ick poo.. The 8271 was not widely used especially on 8bitters. If your serious then 1793 that was common as house flies and does most all soft formats. Actually with the exception of the GCR and hardsector formats that one chip is a good start. GCR (apple) is all software and a trivial amount of hardware (no special chip). Other hard formats have the problem of being unique to themselves (NS* hard is not like Heath hard) though it's possible to create copies of each of those as well. >I've never built any kind of computer from scratch, so it'll be a useful >experience. I figure on putting just enough code in ROM to support >downloading of actual firmware to the device over whatever the link is >to the PC, as that should save a lot of headache! > >Hopefully RAM requirements will be low enough that I can go the SRAM >route and avoid messing around with DRAM refresh (although IIRC the Z80 >has much of the necessary stuff built in...) Seriously 32kbyte static ram chips are easy to get (JDR and other have them) and EEprom (small is 2k and 8k are easy to find). Another way to do this is a small S100 bus with 16k of ram, a rom card Z80 cpu card and a serial board with one each of: NS* MDSA-4(a common hard sector that one does SD and DD) Tarbel 1771 based card (SD and really off 1771 specific formats) CCS 1793 based soft sector card. (most all softsector formats) Compupro 765 based card (why not!) In 7 commonly found S100 cards you cover 90+% of all floppies. The rest is software. If you stick to static parts and 6502 or Z80 the whole thing should be simple. Parallel port (bidirectional) will be faster but serial is easier though slower. Allison From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Oct 25 12:14:51 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:14:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Innovion PC info needed? Converting simms to dipps or Where do I find 1mx4 dipps? In-Reply-To: <8C7A6F2B93B05A7-1360-1EF7C@MBLK-M24.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C7A6F2B93B05A7-1360-1EF7C@MBLK-M24.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <60399.62.49.24.197.1130260491.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > I have several old Innovion CASI Branded PCs computer photography PCs from > the 80s > (pictures here http://www.colortron.tk) I would like to expand the memory > on several A warning about the incredibly non-worksafe interstitial advert page would have been good... Gordon. From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Oct 25 12:40:06 2005 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:40:06 -0400 Subject: ID: Memorex 3266? Message-ID: > picture: http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/3266.jpeg This is a Fujitsu drive (not a 2444 but similar product line as the 2444, maybe a 2436?) that Memorex relabeled. Most of the ones I dealt with were Pertec Formatted (two 50-pin cables) and did 1600 and 6250. Some had cache cards, some had outboard third-party Pertec Formatted to SCSI converters. 2444's were especially popular with Sun VME systems. Tim. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Oct 25 12:45:22 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:45:22 -0700 Subject: ID: Memorex 3266? In-Reply-To: <200510250002140483.18A46209@10.0.0.252> References: <1130217708.17425.20.camel@fortran> <435DD327.7060906@msm.umr.edu> <200510250002140483.18A46209@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <435E6F32.70607@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: >How about this one: > >http://www.listserv.dfn.de/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind8803&L=cyber-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=1286 > >I don't think they were SCSI! > >Cheers, >Chuck > >On 10/24/2005 at 11:39 PM jim stephens wrote: > > my only reason for suggesting scsi it that some IBM equipment has SCSI from the device to the controller, and then converts over to the channel or escon from there. That has fallen out of favor, but our vintage equipment has that feature. The tape silos that were manufactured used fast wide 3490e drives for instance, and could be hooked to escon and scsi at the same time, so that in a single machine room, one could have workstation servers and mainframes attached at the same time to the same silo. I looked at your link, which was interesting. The "Protronyx" reference in the post was a possible bit of information, but seems to be dead before the 1988 time stamp on the message that was referenced. I did not find any reference to that company to see what equipment environment they work in. I did find that the godaddy domain name thieves have "parked" the Protronyx.com domain for someone to trip over, and that was only done in may of 2005. You probably are right, however based on the streaming 125 ips transfer rate, which for pre 1988 scsi would have been a pretty interesting trick to pull off. The transfer rate would not have killed you off necessarily, but the inter command performance might have. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 12:46:34 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:46:34 -0700 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <435E5D33.1050905@yahoo.co.uk> References: <435E5D33.1050905@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200510251046340374.008F227E@10.0.0.252> On 10/25/2005 at 5:28 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >Intel's 8271 looks like a possibility at the moment, but I thought I'd >poll the list for alternative ideas too. FM support is of course >critical - MFM is less of an issue as the host PC can handle that. The 8271 is a pile of worms. Don't even bother with it. In a DIP package, if you want to restrict yourself to 5.25/3.5" MFM and FM (but not HD) formats, the WD 1770/1772 is a nice compact (28 pin) little chip that includes motor control lines as well a decent data separator for FM and MFM. The Atari ST used it. If you want something a bit more elaborate, the WD 279x series will handle most of what you need to handle, but in a 40 pin package. All are easy to program and have Z-80 friendly signals. The NEC 765-based chips (National 8473/8477, WD 37C65, Intel 82077, etc. (the list is very long)) are built for the PC market and, when viewed from the aspect of reading the largest number of formats, are quite quirky. Some will read FM, but not write FM; some will drop the first sector if the IAM missing (many WD-based vintage computers didn't bother with it), few support 128-byte MFM sectors, etc. etc. Some of the older chips require that you supply your own data separator. Given the choice, I'd stay away from them. Why a floppy to support your device, though? There are many high-speed interfaces available to choose from nowadays. Why not feed your device via USB? Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 25 12:43:13 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:43:13 +0100 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <0IOX001H2E21BWS0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOX001H2E21BWS0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <435E6EB1.3030600@yahoo.co.uk> Allison wrote: >>Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... >> From: Jules Richardson >> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:28:35 +0100 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> >>OK, I'm wanting to build a board with an 8 bit CPU (probably Z80, >>possibly 6502) and a floppy controller IC on board with the intention of >>hanging it off my PC (via serial or parallel, undecided yet) and >>allowing me to read and write *most* formats from various 1980's 8 bit >>micros... >> >>Intel's 8271 looks like a possibility at the moment, but I thought I'd >>poll the list for alternative ideas too. FM support is of course >>critical - MFM is less of an issue as the host PC can handle that. > > > ick poo.. The 8271 was not widely used especially on 8bitters. If your > serious then 1793 that was common as house flies and does most all soft > formats. Ahh, not had experience of that one before (I don't think anyway). 177x was pretty common in machines over here, and the 8271 gets used in a lot of Acorn hardware which is why I'm used to it... > GCR (apple) is all software and a trivial > amount of hardware (no special chip). I'm not hugely worried about GCR formats (I gather the ACT Sirius uses GCR too) at this stage, although I suppose if it's just reasonably simple logic then I can keep in mind - ability to add the relevant daughtercard to this planned board at a later date, say. > Other hard formats have the problem > of being unique to themselves (NS* hard is not like Heath hard) though > it's possible to create copies of each of those as well. I've not given thought to hard sectored disks at the moment - I'd expect that the common FDC chips don't support them at all, so it's a different project entirely... >>Hopefully RAM requirements will be low enough that I can go the SRAM >>route and avoid messing around with DRAM refresh (although IIRC the Z80 >>has much of the necessary stuff built in...) > > Seriously 32kbyte static ram chips are easy to get (JDR and other have them) > and EEprom (small is 2k and 8k are easy to find). Well part of the plan is to raid the junk pile and at least put some of it to use, which would likely mean a 2732 EPROM for on-board ROM and 6116 SRAM chips for memory - latter subject to power requirements and board space though. I know I've got quite a few of them kicking around, but they're physically large chips and not *that* big a capacity (8kbit or 16kbit I think, going from my hazy memory...) Of course I've got a boatload of various DRAM chips though, so if the Z80 does provide pretty much all the refresh needed then maybe that's a better bet. > Another way to do this is a small S100 bus with 16k of ram, a rom card > Z80 cpu card and a serial board with one each of: > > NS* MDSA-4(a common hard sector that one does SD and DD) > Tarbel 1771 based card (SD and really off 1771 specific formats) > CCS 1793 based soft sector card. (most all softsector formats) > Compupro 765 based card (why not!) > Ahh, thanks for that list. We've got a truckload of S100 hardware at the museum, so there's definitely a possibility there - I'm just not sure without checking what FDC cards we have. I don't know what spare ROM boards we'll have either (my programmer won't do three-rail devices, so I'd need a board that'd take slightly newer EPROMs...) > If you stick to static parts and 6502 or Z80 the whole thing should be > simple. Parallel port (bidirectional) will be faster but serial is easier > though slower. Agreed :) I can't see parallel being complex though; I guess there's just handshaking protocol to design on top of hooking the chip itself up (unless I got for individual ICs to do the parallel interface), but it doesn't need to be anything complicated. I've got a few weeks until I'm back in the UK, so it gives me something to ponder over in the meantime though :) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 12:57:35 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:57:35 -0700 Subject: ID: Memorex 3266? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510251057350314.0099384A@10.0.0.252> On 10/25/2005 at 1:40 PM Tim Shoppa wrote: >> picture: http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/3266.jpeg > >This is a Fujitsu drive (not a 2444 but similar product line as >the 2444, maybe a 2436?) that Memorex relabeled. I'd assumed it was a Memorex-Telex product, but boy, that little control panel sure looks familiar (I've got a Fujitsu M2444AC and the little panel is very similar). If this is a Fujitsu drive, it's going to be built like a battleship and be HEAVY (One person is not going to be able to carry it very far). And almost certainly Pertec-interfaced. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 12:58:31 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:58:31 -0700 Subject: ID: Memorex 3266? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510251058310635.009A144B@10.0.0.252> On 10/25/2005 at 1:40 PM Tim Shoppa wrote: >> picture: http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/3266.jpeg What's that big orange unit off to the right? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 25 12:59:35 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:59:35 -0400 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... Message-ID: <0IOX00KJVGM5PS71@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:46:34 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/25/2005 at 5:28 PM Jules Richardson wrote: > >>Intel's 8271 looks like a possibility at the moment, but I thought I'd >>poll the list for alternative ideas too. FM support is of course >>critical - MFM is less of an issue as the host PC can handle that. > >The 8271 is a pile of worms. Don't even bother with it. The 8271 was SD only as well. >In a DIP package, if you want to restrict yourself to 5.25/3.5" MFM and FM >(but not HD) formats, the WD 1770/1772 is a nice compact (28 pin) little >chip that includes motor control lines as well a decent data separator for >FM and MFM. The Atari ST used it. If you want something a bit more >elaborate, the WD 279x series will handle most of what you need to handle, >but in a 40 pin package. All are easy to program and have Z-80 friendly >signals. The 279X is a more integrated 1793 so thats a good choice too. Watch out for the 1770/72 as not all flavors of them will work at 8" data rates. >The NEC 765-based chips (National 8473/8477, WD 37C65, Intel 82077, etc. >(the list is very long)) are built for the PC market and, when viewed from >the aspect of reading the largest number of formats, are quite quirky. >Some will read FM, but not write FM; some will drop the first sector if the >IAM missing (many WD-based vintage computers didn't bother with it), few >support 128-byte MFM sectors, etc. etc. Some of the older chips require >that you supply your own data separator. Given the choice, I'd stay away >from them. The 765A was least integrated but with the right external support more flexible than the 37C65 and later. The data seperator was a fairly simple circuit and could be done with a counter or for improved results with a latch and prom. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 25 13:09:55 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:09:55 -0400 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... Message-ID: <0IOX00FP1H3DEDG0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:43:13 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >>>Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... >>> From: Jules Richardson >>> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:28:35 +0100 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>> >>>OK, I'm wanting to build a board with an 8 bit CPU (probably Z80, >>>possibly 6502) and a floppy controller IC on board with the intention of >>>hanging it off my PC (via serial or parallel, undecided yet) and >>>allowing me to read and write *most* formats from various 1980's 8 bit >>>micros... >>> >>>Intel's 8271 looks like a possibility at the moment, but I thought I'd >>>poll the list for alternative ideas too. FM support is of course >>>critical - MFM is less of an issue as the host PC can handle that. >> >> >> ick poo.. The 8271 was not widely used especially on 8bitters. If your >> serious then 1793 that was common as house flies and does most all soft >> formats. > >Ahh, not had experience of that one before (I don't think anyway). 177x >was pretty common in machines over here, and the 8271 gets used in a lot >of Acorn hardware which is why I'm used to it... the Acorn is one of the few that used it. The 8271 was rare here compared to 1771 and 1793. >> Seriously 32kbyte static ram chips are easy to get (JDR and other have them) >> and EEprom (small is 2k and 8k are easy to find). > >Well part of the plan is to raid the junk pile and at least put some of >it to use, which would likely mean a 2732 EPROM for on-board ROM and >6116 SRAM chips for memory - latter subject to power requirements and >board space though. I know I've got quite a few of them kicking around, >but they're physically large chips and not *that* big a capacity (8kbit >or 16kbit I think, going from my hazy memory...) The 6116 is a great part and 4 of them are enough for a track level buffer and another 2 would provide adaquate code space. >Of course I've got a boatload of various DRAM chips though, so if the >Z80 does provide pretty much all the refresh needed then maybe that's a >better bet. GO TO Gaby's site and look for Tim Olmstead DRAM article. It covers DRAM interface in the context of Z80 systems and is very complete. >> Another way to do this is a small S100 bus with 16k of ram, a rom card >> Z80 cpu card and a serial board with one each of: >> >> NS* MDSA-4(a common hard sector that one does SD and DD) >> Tarbel 1771 based card (SD and really off 1771 specific formats) >> CCS 1793 based soft sector card. (most all softsector formats) >> Compupro 765 based card (why not!) >> > >Ahh, thanks for that list. We've got a truckload of S100 hardware at the >museum, so there's definitely a possibility there - I'm just not sure >without checking what FDC cards we have. I don't know what spare ROM >boards we'll have either (my programmer won't do three-rail devices, so >I'd need a board that'd take slightly newer EPROMs...) Or enough eprom to boot over wire. Everytime I need a system to do xxzzy I find enough peices in the S100 spares bin to build it with minimal fuss. Simple enough, anything with WD1771 will do SD, 1791/93 does SD and DD and there were some cards with 765 (Compupro) that do SD/DD. The real key is documentation, however for the popular cards its wasy to docs on line. >> If you stick to static parts and 6502 or Z80 the whole thing should be >> simple. Parallel port (bidirectional) will be faster but serial is easier >> though slower. > >Agreed :) I can't see parallel being complex though; I guess there's >just handshaking protocol to design on top of hooking the chip itself up >(unless I got for individual ICs to do the parallel interface), but it >doesn't need to be anything complicated. It's really traffic management, who talks first and when. ;) >I've got a few weeks until I'm back in the UK, so it gives me something >to ponder over in the meantime though :) Good luck, Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 25 13:14:52 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 19:14:52 +0100 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <200510251046340374.008F227E@10.0.0.252> References: <435E5D33.1050905@yahoo.co.uk> <200510251046340374.008F227E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <435E761C.6050404@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>Intel's 8271 looks like a possibility at the moment, but I thought I'd >>poll the list for alternative ideas too. FM support is of course >>critical - MFM is less of an issue as the host PC can handle that. > > > The 8271 is a pile of worms. Don't even bother with it. :-) > In a DIP package, if you want to restrict yourself to 5.25/3.5" MFM and FM > (but not HD) formats, the WD 1770/1772 is a nice compact (28 pin) little I've certainly got 1770 chips lying around unused in the parts box... I think you've just put that at the top of the list :) > Why a floppy to support your device, though? There are many high-speed > interfaces available to choose from nowadays. Why not feed your device via > USB? Rationale: I'm interested in doing this in order to archive old floppies to modern media, and out of the 5 or so PCs I can lay my hands on at home, none are happy with FM data :-( Catweasel's ruled out on grounds of cost, lack of schematics, and the fact that it's an internal board anyway. I need an external box of tricks so that I can easily use it to do archival work both at home and at the museum (and potentially other locations too). I know the museum PCs have serial and parallel ports, but not all of them will have USB; plus I'm hoping to spend zero cash on this and just use parts lying around at home - I'll have various serial & parallel I/O chips but certainly no USB stuff! As an additional thought whilst writing this (admittedly not thought through yet!) serial might be nicer than parallel so that at some future date I can dump all of the necessary firmware onto the disk interface box's ROM and in theory just talk to it using a comms package from the PC host. Lots more work in terms of understanding the various download protocols to do it that way, and it means that the disk interface box needs to understand the resultant disk image format on the PC which I'm not sure I like... but it does mean that all the host PC needs is a serial port and some comms software (which is covered by pretty much any modern-ish PC OS on the planet) rather than any special application to drive the box. If serial's the standard interface though it'd be zero hardware changes to support this in the future - it just means being stuck with a slower serial protocol for disk image transfer, when parallel would be faster. And yeah, I think we've been over this on this list before... :-) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 13:22:55 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:22:55 -0700 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <0IOX00KJVGM5PS71@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOX00KJVGM5PS71@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510251122550680.00B06B38@10.0.0.252> On 10/25/2005 at 1:59 PM Allison wrote: >The 765A was least integrated but with the right external support more >flexible than the 37C65 and later. You still have to put up with the "blindness' during the IAM interval and the lack of support for MFM 128-byte sectors--and the lack of support for non-standard address marks (not at all uncommon in old formats). At least with the WD chips, you can read the raw track data. >The data seperator was a fairly simple circuit and could be done with >a counter or for improved results with a latch and prom. Or just find a nice little 8-pin WD 9216 data separator. If you wanted more than that, a PLL might be the ticket. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 13:27:23 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:27:23 -0700 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <0IOX00FP1H3DEDG0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOX00FP1H3DEDG0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510251127230075.00B47FBB@10.0.0.252> On 10/25/2005 at 2:09 PM Allison wrote: >The 6116 is a great part and 4 of them are enough for a track level buffer >and another 2 would provide adaquate code space. Dig into a junker external modem--the later V.32 ones have some very nice SRAM chips in 64kx8 and 32Kx8 configurations. One chip and you're done with RAM needs. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 13:31:08 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:31:08 -0700 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <435E761C.6050404@yahoo.co.uk> References: <435E5D33.1050905@yahoo.co.uk> <200510251046340374.008F227E@10.0.0.252> <435E761C.6050404@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200510251131080589.00B7F0A5@10.0.0.252> On 10/25/2005 at 7:14 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >Catweasel's ruled out on grounds of cost, lack of schematics, and the >fact that it's an internal board anyway. If your need is for reading as many different types of media as possible, why not build your own version of the (read side) of the Catweasel? Basically a couple of counters and some RAM and a few latches for drive control. Not all that complicated, really. Cheers, Chuck From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 25 14:31:51 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:31:51 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <435E6EB1.3030600@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0IOX001H2E21BWS0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <0IOX001H2E21BWS0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051025143151.19776128@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:43 PM 10/25/05 +0100, Jules wrote: >Allison wrote: >>>Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... >> >> ick poo.. The 8271 was not widely used especially on 8bitters. If your >> serious then 1793 that was common as house flies and does most all soft >> formats. > >Ahh, not had experience of that one before (I don't think anyway). 177x >was pretty common in machines over here, and the 8271 gets used in a lot >of Acorn hardware which is why I'm used to it... FWIW the Acorn and the Intel MDSs are the only machines that I've ever seen that used it! It sounds like you need a CompatiCard! Has anyone tried to reproduce these? Joe From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Oct 25 14:02:26 2005 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:02:26 -0400 Subject: ID: Memorex 3266? Message-ID: Chuck asked: >> picture: http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/3266.jpeg > What's that big orange unit off to the right? It's upside-down, judging by the couple of characters visible :-). Tim. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 25 14:26:15 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:26:15 -0400 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... Message-ID: <0IOX00F6GKMK2OT1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 19:14:52 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>Intel's 8271 looks like a possibility at the moment, but I thought I'd >>>poll the list for alternative ideas too. FM support is of course >>>critical - MFM is less of an issue as the host PC can handle that. >> >> >> The 8271 is a pile of worms. Don't even bother with it. > >:-) > >> In a DIP package, if you want to restrict yourself to 5.25/3.5" MFM and FM >> (but not HD) formats, the WD 1770/1772 is a nice compact (28 pin) little > >I've certainly got 1770 chips lying around unused in the parts box... I >think you've just put that at the top of the list :) > >> Why a floppy to support your device, though? There are many high-speed >> interfaces available to choose from nowadays. Why not feed your device via >> USB? > >Rationale: > >I'm interested in doing this in order to archive old floppies to modern >media, and out of the 5 or so PCs I can lay my hands on at home, none >are happy with FM data :-( > >Catweasel's ruled out on grounds of cost, lack of schematics, and the >fact that it's an internal board anyway. > >I need an external box of tricks so that I can easily use it to do >archival work both at home and at the museum (and potentially other >locations too). I know the museum PCs have serial and parallel ports, >but not all of them will have USB; plus I'm hoping to spend zero cash on >this and just use parts lying around at home - I'll have various serial >& parallel I/O chips but certainly no USB stuff! > > > >As an additional thought whilst writing this (admittedly not thought >through yet!) serial might be nicer than parallel so that at some future >date I can dump all of the necessary firmware onto the disk interface >box's ROM and in theory just talk to it using a comms package from the >PC host. > >Lots more work in terms of understanding the various download protocols >to do it that way, and it means that the disk interface box needs to >understand the resultant disk image format on the PC which I'm not sure >I like... but it does mean that all the host PC needs is a serial port >and some comms software (which is covered by pretty much any modern-ish >PC OS on the planet) rather than any special application to drive the box. > >If serial's the standard interface though it'd be zero hardware changes >to support this in the future - it just means being stuck with a slower >serial protocol for disk image transfer, when parallel would be faster. >And yeah, I think we've been over this on this list before... :-) > >cheers > >Jules If you have an older box with ISA bus there is a direct solution.. Put a 1793/2793/1770 on a ISA protoboard and run it direct from the PC. Then all you need to write is software to make it go. There's absolutly no reason why you cannot do that. Allison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 25 14:26:39 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:26:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1 In-Reply-To: <8396A6180D00874B9A19FD728529F06A06B162@nlhoo1-exc010.aerospace.intra> References: <8396A6180D00874B9A19FD728529F06A06B162@nlhoo1-exc010.aerospace.intra> Message-ID: <49565.82.152.112.73.1130268399.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Tue, October 25, 2005 8:37 am, Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com said: > items for replacements in case one of all items run down so we can > replace it immediatly, but we are now only missing the protocol to do so > for the ethernet address items. > Hope this helps for solving the installation problem. I don't understand what you're trying to achieve here. The Ethernet address is that device's unique world wide identifier so no two ethernet devices have the same address, well, back in the days of the kit you're talking about that was definitely true. If a piece of your equipment dies you put another one in and VMS doesn't care a bit. Your terminal servers are only managed by ethernet address (in that you can connect to it via NCP using the ethernet address), the VXT doesn't care either. Both the DECservers and the VXT are client devices and talk to the VAX using LAT or IP (DS250 is LAT only). LAT doesn't care about the ethernet address other than to use it as a destination for ethernet packets. I thought it was part of the ethernet spec that the hardware address couldn't be changed unless you're running a VMScluster. cheers -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 25 14:42:31 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:42:31 -0400 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... Message-ID: <0IOX0096VLDPPFY0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:22:55 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/25/2005 at 1:59 PM Allison wrote: > >>The 765A was least integrated but with the right external support more >>flexible than the 37C65 and later. > >You still have to put up with the "blindness' during the IAM interval and >the lack of support for MFM 128-byte sectors--and the lack of support for >non-standard address marks (not at all uncommon in old formats). At least >with the WD chips, you can read the raw track data. Ah huh, what? Who does 128byte MF sectors??? If you really have to it's possible to tell a 765 that it's a short sector in mfm. As to non standard address marks that was a tandyism and 765 "read deleted" works. >>>The data seperator was a fairly simple circuit and could be done with >>a counter or for improved results with a latch and prom. > >Or just find a nice little 8-pin WD 9216 data separator. If you wanted >more than that, a PLL might be the ticket. If you can find one 9216 is good or the 9229. IF not the latch/prom is a synthetic PLL (which is the logic in the 9216 etal) and very good with less headaches than a real PLL. In general a 765A on a late XT or early AT class FDC is the trick more possibilities than not. Those that it can't be require extraordinary effort. There are few reasons that seem to abound for do alls. Those be "archives" and I want to run a zzxxyy sim on a PC. Those that most often archive have a host that can read it. The other case is obvious. However, the case I run into the most is I wish to run ABC on Northstar* under CP/M and need to get it on to the AmproLB. For that the Ampro connected to the serial port of the NS* and MDM740 neatly sidesteps the "format problem" and once on the AmproLB I can run DOS and write it to a 720K 3.5" floppy under (DOS/WIN/NT/Linux) and run it under MyZ80 or whatever. Allison From cheri-post at web.de Tue Oct 25 14:43:57 2005 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:43:57 +0200 Subject: ID: Memorex 3266? Message-ID: <980233936@web.de> > > picture: http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/3266.jpeg > > This is a Fujitsu drive (not a 2444 but similar product line as > the 2444, maybe a 2436?) that Memorex relabeled. > > Most of the ones I dealt with were Pertec Formatted > (two 50-pin cables) and did 1600 and 6250. Some had > cache cards, some had outboard third-party Pertec Formatted > to SCSI converters. > > 2444's were especially popular with Sun VME systems. > > Tim. > These ARE relabeled Fujitsu drives, I'd suppose 2436 as well, Tim. I recognize the drives and their frontpanel as they were the same on the Unisys System 80, I tried to safe last year. The only difference: They were red, not blue. concerning the right number and the interface types: Can be looked up in 3 days. If the documents and schematics are needed, I wanted to scan them anyway. But it may take several months, as I'm in France and not in Germany currently. Regards, Pierre ______________________________________________________________ Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS! Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 25 14:45:04 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:45:04 -0400 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... Message-ID: <0IOX00KBALHXPKN1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:27:23 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/25/2005 at 2:09 PM Allison wrote: > >>The 6116 is a great part and 4 of them are enough for a track level buffer >>and another 2 would provide adaquate code space. > >Dig into a junker external modem--the later V.32 ones have some very nice >SRAM chips in 64kx8 and 32Kx8 configurations. One chip and you're done >with RAM needs. > >Cheers, >Chuck Or a 386 or 486 mainboard. I have all my tiny(dip but .3 wide) cmos 8kx8, 32kx8 and larger that are real nice for this kind of stuff. Usually there will be a 27256 or 27C256 on those for 32k of easily programmed Eprom. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 15:03:16 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:03:16 -0700 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051025143151.19776128@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <0IOX001H2E21BWS0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <0IOX001H2E21BWS0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <3.0.6.16.20051025143151.19776128@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200510251303160043.010C47A7@10.0.0.252> On 10/25/2005 at 2:31 PM Joe R. wrote: > It sounds like you need a CompatiCard! Has anyone tried to reproduce >these? The old Compaticard I and II used a non-standard way of changing density, so I'd stay away from these. The CC IV wasn't that different (as far as the basic hardware) from many, many other "use high-density drives on your XT" boards. FWIW, unless you need the DIP switches and absolute reconfigurability, there are many old alternate-source cards that will work just fine. Most will at least support 37x as an alternate port. The OmniBridge and WD Fox 1002A come to mind as branded products; there were many other "white box" controllers that did just as well. At one point, Don Maslin and I tried to compile an exhaustive list, but when you started including floppy+hard disk controllers, there were just too many. (e.g., the DTC 3280 SCSI controller has a very nice floppy controller on it). Some were better in handling odd formats than any of the CC's. Up until last year, we had a pile of NOS CC IV's. I could not believe that people were willing to pay $150 for a fairly garden-variety ISA card, but we sold them out very quickly at that price. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 25 15:18:10 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <435E5D33.1050905@yahoo.co.uk> References: <435E5D33.1050905@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051025131407.B35084@shell.lmi.net> Does what you want differ in any significant way from an already existing Ampro LittleBoard, or Megatel Quark? (small floppy controller with serial/parallel interface) There have been numerous floppy drive form factor single board machines. There was one that was marketed as an external "drive" for Apples, that could "also run CP/M". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 25 14:35:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:35:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <435D891A.7020802@seefried.com> from "Ken Seefried" at Oct 24, 5 09:23:38 pm Message-ID: > You could even short-cut some of the FPGA work. I don't recall what > the microsequencer looks like on the 11/730, but if it's the usual > Am29{09,10,11}, there is at least one shop that still (as of at least >From what I rmembnr, the sequencer is PALs + a bit of TTL. There are none of the AMD sequencer chips in there. Incidentally, the PALs in the 11/730 are 'protected by solder'. That is, the security fuses are intact. If you are prepared to desolder them from the PCBs, you can read them out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 25 14:59:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:59:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: from "Johnny Billquist" at Oct 25, 5 03:38:27 pm Message-ID: [11/730] > Maybe. I think that there is probably a lot more logic outside the 2901 > than inside... We're still talking several boards of logic here... I doubt > all of that is microcode memory, 2901s and 74xx series stuff. :-) The 11/730 CPU (not including the integrated disk controller or the FPU) is 3 hex cards. It's been a long time since I've been inside one, but from what I remmeber, the chips include 8 off 2901s An 8085 (or something similar) as the console procesosr, along with local ROM and RAM A couple of serial chips + buffers (console and TU58 ports) The microdoe RAM 2 DEC gate arrays which seem to be the memory ECC chips. I suspect they're similar, if not the same, as ones in the 11/750 Loads and Loads of 20 pin PALs. Fortunately not copy-protected. Some, but not a lot, of TTL -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 25 15:21:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:21:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <435E5D33.1050905@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 25, 5 05:28:35 pm Message-ID: > > > OK, I'm wanting to build a board with an 8 bit CPU (probably Z80, > possibly 6502) and a floppy controller IC on board with the intention of > hanging it off my PC (via serial or parallel, undecided yet) and > allowing me to read and write *most* formats from various 1980's 8 bit > micros... > > Intel's 8271 looks like a possibility at the moment, but I thought I'd I would avoid the 8271, if only becuase it's somewhat rare (the BBC micro being the only common machine to use it). And there's the thing that I've never seen an Intel LSI chip without a design misfeature ;-) I'd go for one of the Western Digital ones. If you're lucky you'll find a 2793 or 2797 or something like that. Everything, including the data seperator, is on-chip. Setting up is easy. The 1770 (or 1772) or the 1773 aee other easy-to-use chips. Be warned that the 1771 is a bit odd. It's FM only _and_ it can write a Data Marker than no other normal floppy controllers can. The problem is that that data marker was used on the TRS-80 Model 1 (on the directory cylinder only). If you want to copy disks from that machine, you need the 1771 (to the extent that the double-density upgrades for the Model 1 added a 1791 or similar, and kept the 1771 alongside it). > poll the list for alternative ideas too. FM support is of course > critical - MFM is less of an issue as the host PC can handle that. > > I've never built any kind of computer from scratch, so it'll be a useful > experience. I figure on putting just enough code in ROM to support > downloading of actual firmware to the device over whatever the link is > to the PC, as that should save a lot of headache! > > Hopefully RAM requirements will be low enough that I can go the SRAM > route and avoid messing around with DRAM refresh (although IIRC the Z80 > has much of the necessary stuff built in...) 32K*8 bit SRAM chips are common. 128K*8 are also common (but maybe harder to find in a DIP package). You really don't want to be doing bank-switching of memory, do you? In which case, 2 32K chips would fill the address space of a Z80 or 6502. Personally, I think 32K RAM would be enough, along with, say, 8K (or 16K) EPROM. Many 8 bit machines supported a floppy drive with far less. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 25 15:34:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051021155330.32d78574@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Joe R. wrote: > Hey Sellam! Your friend Dennis Kominsky strikes again! :-) Ya gotta love it! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 25 15:46:53 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <0IOX0096VLDPPFY0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOX0096VLDPPFY0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051025133819.O35084@shell.lmi.net> > >You still have to put up with the "blindness' during the IAM interval and > >the lack of support for MFM 128-byte sectors--and the lack of support for > >non-standard address marks (not at all uncommon in old formats). At least > >with the WD chips, you can read the raw track data. On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > Ah huh, what? The IAM interval is easily handled by masking that signal. (interrupt the cable, or (on older cruder drives) cover the index with tape.) > Who does 128byte MF sectors??? If you really have to it's > possible to tell a 765 that it's a short sector in mfm. I have half a dozen formats that I was unable to put into XenoCopy, due to 128 MFM. I never could get reliable reading, so I did those with a 1791. > As to non standard > address marks that was a tandyism and 765 "read deleted" works. I don't remember any non-standard address marks other than Tandy, but there could have been. 'course the 1791 didn't want to write all of the ones that the 1771 did! I understand that the 765 multi-sector "track read" was better for MOST of the market, but WE would rather have had the WD style "raw" track read. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 25 15:57:15 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:57:15 +0100 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <20051025131407.B35084@shell.lmi.net> References: <435E5D33.1050905@yahoo.co.uk> <20051025131407.B35084@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <435E9C2B.4060105@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > Does what you want differ in any significant way from an already existing > Ampro LittleBoard, or Megatel Quark? > (small floppy controller with serial/parallel interface) Nope, probably not. I've just never seen such a beast available in the UK, or anything else along similar lines. The closest I've got is probably the floppy unit for the RML 480Z as that's a Z80-based board with serial and FDC - but its firmware will be designed to specifically read RML format disks and nothing else (OK, so I could change the ROMs and run my own firmware...) cheers Jules From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 25 16:32:42 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:32:42 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <0IOX00F6GKMK2OT1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051025163242.10e70cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:26 PM 10/25/05 -0400, you wrote: >> >>Subject: Re: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... >> From: Jules Richardson >> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 19:14:52 +0100 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >>Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>>Intel's 8271 looks like a possibility at the moment, but I thought I'd >>>>poll the list for alternative ideas too. FM support is of course >>>>critical - MFM is less of an issue as the host PC can handle that. >>> >>> >>> The 8271 is a pile of worms. Don't even bother with it. >> >>:-) >> >>> In a DIP package, if you want to restrict yourself to 5.25/3.5" MFM and FM >>> (but not HD) formats, the WD 1770/1772 is a nice compact (28 pin) little >> >>I've certainly got 1770 chips lying around unused in the parts box... I >>think you've just put that at the top of the list :) >> >>> Why a floppy to support your device, though? There are many high-speed >>> interfaces available to choose from nowadays. Why not feed your device via >>> USB? >> >>Rationale: >> >>I'm interested in doing this in order to archive old floppies to modern >>media, and out of the 5 or so PCs I can lay my hands on at home, none >>are happy with FM data :-( >> >>Catweasel's ruled out on grounds of cost, lack of schematics, and the >>fact that it's an internal board anyway. >> >>I need an external box of tricks so that I can easily use it to do >>archival work both at home and at the museum (and potentially other >>locations too). I know the museum PCs have serial and parallel ports, >>but not all of them will have USB; plus I'm hoping to spend zero cash on >>this and just use parts lying around at home - I'll have various serial >>& parallel I/O chips but certainly no USB stuff! >> >> >> >>As an additional thought whilst writing this (admittedly not thought >>through yet!) serial might be nicer than parallel so that at some future >>date I can dump all of the necessary firmware onto the disk interface >>box's ROM and in theory just talk to it using a comms package from the >>PC host. >> >>Lots more work in terms of understanding the various download protocols >>to do it that way, and it means that the disk interface box needs to >>understand the resultant disk image format on the PC which I'm not sure >>I like... but it does mean that all the host PC needs is a serial port >>and some comms software (which is covered by pretty much any modern-ish >>PC OS on the planet) rather than any special application to drive the box. >> >>If serial's the standard interface though it'd be zero hardware changes >>to support this in the future - it just means being stuck with a slower >>serial protocol for disk image transfer, when parallel would be faster. >>And yeah, I think we've been over this on this list before... :-) >> >>cheers >> >>Jules > > >If you have an older box with ISA bus there is a direct solution.. > >Put a 1793/2793/1770 on a ISA protoboard and run it direct from the >PC. Then all you need to write is software to make it go. There's >absolutly no reason why you cannot do that. > >Allison I have a used ISA Proto board that I'll contribute to the effort. Joe From recycler at swbell.net Tue Oct 25 16:25:45 2005 From: recycler at swbell.net (recycler at swbell.net) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:25:45 -0400 Subject: SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST Message-ID: <380-220051022521254551@M2W081.mail2web.com> SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 16:34:59 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:34:59 +0000 Subject: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? In-Reply-To: <00e801c5d909$6f4dcd30$6601a8c0@hypertherm.com> References: <00e801c5d909$6f4dcd30$6601a8c0@hypertherm.com> Message-ID: On 10/25/05, John Miramonti wrote: > I was your email regarding the Radio Shack Electronic LearningLab. I picked > one up for my daughter, but it came without the manuals. I'm trying to get a > copy. You mentioned "...The PDF file on the RS web site doesn't list things > in enough detail.". I've been trying to download the PDF manual, but the > upgraded web site apparently doesn't have it. Could you email me a copy? This is probably in response to my queries of several months ago. AFAIK, the RS website _never_ had the manuals online. The PDF file I was referring to was a partial parts list, not the experimenter's guide. > Or could I arrange to get a copy of your manuals? I could trade you a detailed > list of components, with part numbers, catalog numbers, etc. I have passed the LearningLab along to someone else (it was bought to be a present), so I can't even make a copy of the manuals. Sorry. Perhaps RS will sell the manuals separately? -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 25 16:37:14 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:37:14 -0400 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051025163242.10e70cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051025163242.10e70cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <435EA58A.6020602@bellatlantic.net> Joe R. wrote: > At 03:26 PM 10/25/05 -0400, you wrote: > >>>Subject: Re: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... >>> From: Jules Richardson >>> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 19:14:52 +0100 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > >>>Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>>>>Intel's 8271 looks like a possibility at the moment, but I thought I'd >>>>>poll the list for alternative ideas too. FM support is of course >>>>>critical - MFM is less of an issue as the host PC can handle that. >>>> >>>> >>>>The 8271 is a pile of worms. Don't even bother with it. >>> >>>:-) >>> >>> >>>>In a DIP package, if you want to restrict yourself to 5.25/3.5" MFM and FM >>>>(but not HD) formats, the WD 1770/1772 is a nice compact (28 pin) little >>> >>>I've certainly got 1770 chips lying around unused in the parts box... I >>>think you've just put that at the top of the list :) >>> >>> >>>>Why a floppy to support your device, though? There are many high-speed >>>>interfaces available to choose from nowadays. Why not feed your device > > via > >>>>USB? >>> >>>Rationale: >>> >>>I'm interested in doing this in order to archive old floppies to modern >>>media, and out of the 5 or so PCs I can lay my hands on at home, none >>>are happy with FM data :-( >>> >>>Catweasel's ruled out on grounds of cost, lack of schematics, and the >>>fact that it's an internal board anyway. >>> >>>I need an external box of tricks so that I can easily use it to do >>>archival work both at home and at the museum (and potentially other >>>locations too). I know the museum PCs have serial and parallel ports, >>>but not all of them will have USB; plus I'm hoping to spend zero cash on >>>this and just use parts lying around at home - I'll have various serial >>>& parallel I/O chips but certainly no USB stuff! >>> >>> >>> >>>As an additional thought whilst writing this (admittedly not thought >>>through yet!) serial might be nicer than parallel so that at some future >>>date I can dump all of the necessary firmware onto the disk interface >>>box's ROM and in theory just talk to it using a comms package from the >>>PC host. >>> >>>Lots more work in terms of understanding the various download protocols >>>to do it that way, and it means that the disk interface box needs to >>>understand the resultant disk image format on the PC which I'm not sure >>>I like... but it does mean that all the host PC needs is a serial port >>>and some comms software (which is covered by pretty much any modern-ish >>>PC OS on the planet) rather than any special application to drive the box. >>> >>>If serial's the standard interface though it'd be zero hardware changes >>>to support this in the future - it just means being stuck with a slower >>>serial protocol for disk image transfer, when parallel would be faster. >>>And yeah, I think we've been over this on this list before... :-) >>> >>>cheers >>> >>>Jules >> >> >>If you have an older box with ISA bus there is a direct solution.. >> >>Put a 1793/2793/1770 on a ISA protoboard and run it direct from the >>PC. Then all you need to write is software to make it go. There's >>absolutly no reason why you cannot do that. >> >>Allison > > > I have a used ISA Proto board that I'll contribute to the effort. > > Joe It's Jules thats doing this. Me I have an old XT ISA card that used a raw 765A and 8229 that I modded for any rate I want and it even could talk to 4 drives without a twist! Allison From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 16:44:43 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:44:43 -0700 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <20051025133819.O35084@shell.lmi.net> References: <0IOX0096VLDPPFY0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20051025133819.O35084@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510251444430159.01692843@10.0.0.252> On 10/25/2005 at 1:46 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >The IAM interval is easily handled by masking that signal. (interrupt the >cable, or (on older cruder drives) cover the index with tape.) I did better than that--I inserted a flip-flop and a gate to optionally pass the index signal every OTHER rev. But why do it if you don't have to? >I have half a dozen formats that I was unable to put into XenoCopy, >due to 128 MFM. I never could get reliable reading, so I did those with >a 1791. I believe that Don Maslin discovered that any adapter with a National 8473 would do the trick (but not the 8477, strangely enough). Whatever, stay away from the Intel 82077AA-1 chips--they cannot write FM. When I asked an Intel application engineer about why Intel broke this capability (the 82077 could do the write), his answer was "who writes FM diskettes anymore?". You see this kind of thinking in the current crop of USB floppies. >I don't remember any non-standard address marks other than Tandy, but >there could have been. >'course the 1791 didn't want to write all of the ones that the 1771 did! I'd have to dig through my notes, but there were a few others. I've got a couple WD 1781's here; I take it that they're a pretty rare bird... >I understand that the 765 multi-sector "track read" was better for MOST of >the market, but WE would rather have had the WD style "raw" track read. No kidding. Has anyone ever used the Signetics 8x330 bit-slice floppy controller? Like most of the 8x300 line, a very strange bird. Cheers, Chuck From technobug at comcast.net Tue Oct 25 16:53:49 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:53:49 -0700 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <200510252105.j9PL5ehi049177@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510252105.j9PL5ehi049177@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <311BF308-7332-4BC1-A4D2-D3699FBF7ACE@comcast.net> On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:35:37 +0100 (BST), > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Incidentally, the PALs in the 11/730 are 'protected by solder'. > That is, > the security fuses are intact. If you are prepared to desolder them > from > the PCBs, you can read them out. > > -tony At one time I had a set of prints for the 11/730 and IIRC the PAL codes were included on the schematics. CRC From djg at drs-c4i.com Tue Oct 25 17:22:26 2005 From: djg at drs-c4i.com (David Gesswein) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:22:26 -0400 Subject: RX01 felt pad (Tim) Message-ID: <200510252222.j9PMMQ114325@drs-c4i.com> I just took apart my RX02 to clean them since they were getting flakey. On a previous drive I just went to a craft store and bought the closest material I could find, cut it to a small dot to fit in the cup. Put a drop of glue in the cup and push the material in. To get the drive out for access. 1) Remove from outer shell if you have the desktop unit. The top cover comes off with obvious screws then ones along the side free the internal unit. 2) Disconnect the cables to the controller board and motor power connector on the back of the drive hidden by the air baffle. 3) Remove drive from rest of assembly. 2 screws through the air baffle at the back and 4 from the top down. If you tilt the upper board up on the hinge they are accesible through holes in the lower PCB. That should free the drive. You can then lift up the little presure arm to easly get at the pad. I don't have any real RX01's so they might be slightly different for disassembly. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 17:47:10 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:47:10 -0700 Subject: RX01 felt pad (Tim) In-Reply-To: <200510252222.j9PMMQ114325@drs-c4i.com> References: <200510252222.j9PMMQ114325@drs-c4i.com> Message-ID: <200510251547100004.01A253A5@10.0.0.252> On 10/25/2005 at 6:22 PM David Gesswein wrote: >I just took apart my RX02 to clean them since they were getting >flakey. On a previous drive I just went to a craft store and bought the >closest material I could find, cut it to a small dot to fit in the >cup. Put a drop of glue in the cup and push the material in. Another place to try is your local music store. The repair technician will usually have felt in many thicknesses and if you're nice, you might be able to talk him out of some free gratis. Cheers, Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Oct 25 18:07:27 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:07:27 -0500 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: References: <435E5D33.1050905@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051025180727.5e660f40.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:21:09 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > > OK, I'm wanting to build a board with an 8 bit CPU (probably Z80, > > possibly 6502) and a floppy controller IC on board with the intention of > > hanging it off my PC (via serial or parallel, undecided yet) and > > allowing me to read and write *most* formats from various 1980's 8 bit > > micros... > > > > Intel's 8271 looks like a possibility at the moment, but I thought I'd > > I would avoid the 8271, if only becuase it's somewhat rare (the BBC micro > being the only common machine to use it). And there's the thing that I've > never seen an Intel LSI chip without a design misfeature ;-) > > I'd go for one of the Western Digital ones. If you're lucky you'll find a > 2793 or 2797 or something like that. Everything, including the data > seperator, is on-chip. Setting up is easy. > > The 1770 (or 1772) or the 1773 aee other easy-to-use chips. > > Be warned that the 1771 is a bit odd. It's FM only _and_ it can write a > Data Marker than no other normal floppy controllers can. The problem is > that that data marker was used on the TRS-80 Model 1 (on the directory > cylinder only). If you want to copy disks from that machine, you need the > 1771 (to the extent that the double-density upgrades for the Model 1 > added a 1791 or similar, and kept the 1771 alongside it). > That leads into what I was going to make as a comment. Keep the system pluggable and modular, and put several controllers on board to cover multiple needs. Facing the micro, it's just several I/O ports per controller. -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 25 18:37:34 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 19:37:34 -0400 Subject: RX01 felt pad (Tim) Message-ID: <0IOX008JTW9EYVO0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: RX01 felt pad (Tim) > From: David Gesswein > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:22:26 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > I just took apart my RX02 to clean them since they were getting >flakey. On a previous drive I just went to a craft store and bought the >closest material I could find, cut it to a small dot to fit in the >cup. Put a drop of glue in the cup and push the material in. > >To get the drive out for access. >1) Remove from outer shell if you have the desktop unit. The top cover >comes off with obvious screws then ones along the side free the internal >unit. >2) Disconnect the cables to the controller board and motor power connector >on the back of the drive hidden by the air baffle. >3) Remove drive from rest of assembly. 2 screws through the air baffle >at the back and 4 from the top down. If you tilt the upper board up >on the hinge they are accesible through holes in the lower PCB. > >That should free the drive. You can then lift up the little presure arm >to easly get at the pad. > >I don't have any real RX01's so they might be slightly different for >disassembly. RX01 drives and RX02 drives are the same. Only the logic differs. Allison From tradde at excite.com Tue Oct 25 18:42:14 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 19:42:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RX01 felt pad (Tim) Message-ID: <20051025234214.49A51B6CA@xprdmailfe20.nwk.excite.com> --- On Tue 10/25, David Gesswein < djg at drs-c4i.com > wrote: From: David Gesswein [mailto: djg at drs-c4i.com] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:22:26 -0400 Subject: Re: RX01 felt pad (Tim) I just took apart my RX02 to clean them since they were getting
flakey. On a previous drive I just went to a craft store and bought the
closest material I could find, cut it to a small dot to fit in the
cup. Put a drop of glue in the cup and push the material in.

To get the drive out for access.
1) Remove from outer shell if you have the desktop unit. The top cover
comes off with obvious screws then ones along the side free the internal
unit.
2) Disconnect the cables to the controller board and motor power connector
on the back of the drive hidden by the air baffle.
3) Remove drive from rest of assembly. 2 screws through the air baffle
at the back and 4 from the top down. If you tilt the upper board up
on the hinge they are accesible through holes in the lower PCB.

That should free the drive. You can then lift up the little presure arm
to easly get at the pad.

I don't have any real RX01's so they might be slightly different for
disassembly.

Much easier on an RX01. I don't have to remove the drive. Remove 3 screws from top board, and flip back. Remove 8 screws on lower board and remove a few cables (remembering where they go) and lift lower board and tilt towards back of unit. There thru two pretty good sized access holes are the heads and all. I simply put a small drop of contact cement on the holder and a very small amount on the pad. Let both dry for about 10 minutes. THen put the pad onto the bottom of the holder. Voila. It should work. Hardest part was keeping the little pad on my finger to stick it to the holder. It kept falling off. It's setting up now. I will test it later. Thanks all. Tim R _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 25 18:57:29 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:57:29 -0700 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051025163242.10e70cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051025163242.10e70cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200510251657290902.01E2B6CC@10.0.0.252> If what you're really after is a "read anything" system for archival purposes, why bother with someone's FDC? There was a time when processor horsepower was limited and LSI didn't mean what it does now and an LSI FDC seemed like a good idea. That was then and this is now. If you can find a 64KB FIFO (salvaged from an old video card maybe) or a bunch of 8 bit counters and some SRAM, you can build your own version of a Catweasel and read just about anything--including those Victor 9000 or Motorola VersaDOS diskette or any number of bizarre copy-protection schemes. You can use an 8255 for drive control and the rest is mostly LSTTL glue. Writing is a little more complicated, but reading is simple. When talking about multiple controllers on a card, it seems that a simpler approach might be a bit more flexible. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 25 19:11:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 01:11:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: RX01 felt pad (Tim) In-Reply-To: <20051025234214.49A51B6CA@xprdmailfe20.nwk.excite.com> from "Tim" at Oct 25, 5 07:42:14 pm Message-ID: > > Much easier on an RX01. I don't have to remove the drive. Remove > 3 screws from top board, and flip back. Remove 8 screws on lower > board and remove a few cables (remembering where they go) and lift > lower board and tilt towards back of unit. There thru two pretty > good sized access holes are the heads and all. I simply put a small The RX02 is like that too -- in fact the drives, chassis, PSU, front panel, etc are generally the same between the 01 and 02 (there is some issue of a resistor on the head connector, but...) But since the drive is so easy to remove (take off the fan plenum at the back, unplug the wiring, undo 6 screws, and it comes out downwards), I'd take it out. Access to the assembly is then a lot easier. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 25 19:16:05 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 01:16:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: RX01 felt pad (Tim) In-Reply-To: <0IOX008JTW9EYVO0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Oct 25, 5 07:37:34 pm Message-ID: > RX01 drives and RX02 drives are the same. Only the logic differs. I was under the impression there was a minor electical difference between the drives -- something about a resistor on the head connector. But I might be thinking of some other unit. Most RX01 and RX02 drives are mechanically the same. But I've seen an early RX01 with a different drive mechanism. Most of the drives have a pressed metal housing with a little die-cast chassis to hold the spindle, motor, and head positioned. That's mounted into the housing, the disk holder bits are mounted seperatly to the hosing. The other drive (which had a 'CDC flavour') had a diecast chassis/housing. Everything was mounted on that. IIRC, there was an air duct cast as past of the housing. I think the 2 types of drives are totally compatible externally (i.e. there are no PSU or R/W board changes), but most of the internal bits are different. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 25 19:18:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 01:18:26 +0100 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <200510251657290902.01E2B6CC@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20051025163242.10e70cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200510251657290902.01E2B6CC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <435ECB52.3040404@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If what you're really after is a "read anything" system for archival > purposes, why bother with someone's FDC? Well I don't really need 'read anything' at this stage - handling fairly stock FM disks (of various sizes) would be a good place to start... > That was then and this is now. If you can find a 64KB FIFO (salvaged from > an old video card maybe) or a bunch of 8 bit counters and some SRAM, you > can build your own version of a Catweasel and read just about > anything--including those Victor 9000 or Motorola VersaDOS diskette or any > number of bizarre copy-protection schemes. You can use an 8255 for drive > control and the rest is mostly LSTTL glue. Writing is a little more > complicated, but reading is simple. Yep, that's my ultimate aim I suppose - I know I've mentioned it on the list before and bounced circuit ideas around with a few people. I just fancy trying a simpler approach first :) My plan was 8 bit counters and SRAM - with the latter salvaged from old PC cache memory, with something like 8x oversampling and buffering at the track level - then doing all the processing in software. I *think* in my scribblings (which I don't have here) it required 128KB of SRAM, which isn't impossible - it's just a little more complex to get something up and running than the SBC with FDC approach. Right now I'm leaning toward starting out using a stripped-down BBC micro with 1770 FDC as a development platform as it gives me all the necessary serial / FDC / memory circuitry and I can develop necessary code a little easier than doing it blind with a homebrew board. Later on I can simplify the BBC's circuitry a lot and put everything onto a homebrew board. But yes, ultimately I'd like something that read raw track data and could hopefully allow analysis/recovery from disk errors as well as supporting a lot more formats... cheers Jules From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Oct 25 19:34:48 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:34:48 -0700 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <435C16F6.5010400@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IOU001TL2QAM291@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <435C16F6.5010400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 10/23/05, woodelf wrote: > > > >What else is out there that's not wintel, fast enough and can address > >a large memory that runs a fairly current UNIX. That also assumes > >the software that can P&R the FPGA is available as source. > > > > > P&R is mostly sorting is my guess. I haven't played with FPGAs in a few years, so my info may be out of date, but the routing software I used didn't have much to do with sorting. IIRC it used a simulated annealing/maximum entropy method. I would guess todays stuff uses a genetic algorithm in hopes of being a bit more efficient. It's easy enough to write IFF you have a good understanding of the chip internals. It's easy to run if you've got CPU[s] to burn. Xilinx used to have software that would run under Solaris... Eric From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Tue Oct 25 19:41:24 2005 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II APEX OS manual posted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051026004124.29941.qmail@web81003.mail.yahoo.com> FYI, posted a PDF of a manual for the Apex OS for the Apple II. Other related manuals coming soon. http://www.trailingedge.com/apple2/ From tradde at excite.com Tue Oct 25 19:43:54 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:43:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RX01 felt pad (Tim) Message-ID: <20051026004354.BD564C183C@xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> --- On Tue 10/25, Tony Duell < ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > wrote: From: Tony Duell [mailto: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 01:11:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: RX01 felt pad (Tim) >
> Much easier on an RX01. I don't have to remove the drive. Remove
> 3 screws from top board, and flip back. Remove 8 screws on lower
> board and remove a few cables (remembering where they go) and lift
> lower board and tilt towards back of unit. There thru two pretty
> good sized access holes are the heads and all. I simply put a small

The RX02 is like that too -- in fact the drives, chassis, PSU, front
panel, etc are generally the same between the 01 and 02 (there is some
issue of a resistor on the head connector, but...)

But since the drive is so easy to remove (take off the fan plenum at the
back, unplug the wiring, undo 6 screws, and it comes out downwards), I'd
take it out. Access to the assembly is then a lot easier.

-tony
I'll remember this info for the next time I have to get to the heads or similar. Thanks. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 25 20:08:43 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 19:08:43 -0600 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: References: <0IOU001TL2QAM291@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <435C16F6.5010400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <435ED71B.7030608@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric J Korpela wrote: I haven't played with FPGAs in a few years, so my info may be out of date, but the routing software I used didn't have much to do with sorting. IIRC it >used a simulated annealing/maximum entropy method. I would guess todays >stuff uses a genetic algorithm in hopes of being a bit more efficient. It's >easy enough to write IFF you have a good understanding of the chip >internals. It's easy to run if you've got CPU[s] to burn. > >Xilinx used to have software that would run under Solaris... > > > They could indeed. All I know is the free?/low cost software is windows based and the hi-priced software is windows/other. I suspect they think if you are not using a Pee Sea you have $$$ to shell out for software. >Eric > > Also using a dial up does not help with the megabyte software needed for FPGA development. As for my hobby CPLD work I just keep adding features to my designs untill it don't fit and go back a version. :) Back to FPGA software for the VAX, I don't see the hardware a problem but the software could be still be one. The small PDP'S has hoards of paper tape software, the big ones all need a OS. From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Oct 25 16:25:16 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:25:16 +0000 Subject: http://cgi.ebay.com/RCA-TC-1206-Video-Monitor-5-25_W0QQitemZ7555 Message-ID: <20051026012417.NKDT16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> RCA TC 1206 Video Monitor 5.25" still $ 10 bid. Sorry I had didn't had a chance to post this in advance! Cheers, Wizard From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Tue Oct 25 21:16:07 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:16:07 -0500 Subject: What is DECdatasystem? Message-ID: Okay, looking over the web, I've seen several PDP11 machines marked "DECdatasystem"... They don't seem to have anything in common...it's like a random marking DEC decided to put on machines. Anyone know what it means? From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Oct 25 21:22:37 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:22:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Any own an 11/725...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > B1700 B1800 and B1900, too. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 21:23:06 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:23:06 -0400 Subject: What is DECdatasystem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435EE88A.1050409@gmail.com> Wolfe, Julian wrote: > Okay, looking over the web, I've seen several PDP11 machines marked > "DECdatasystem"... They don't seem to have anything in common...it's like a > random marking DEC decided to put on machines. Anyone know what it means? Not just PDP-11's. There are PDP-8's marked as DECdatasystem. I think it was a marketing term. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 25 21:28:28 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:28:28 -0400 Subject: What is DECdatasystem? Message-ID: <0IOY00CB9466QQT0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: What is DECdatasystem? > From: "Wolfe, Julian " > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:16:07 -0500 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >Okay, looking over the web, I've seen several PDP11 machines marked >"DECdatasystem"... They don't seem to have anything in common...it's like a >random marking DEC decided to put on machines. Anyone know what it means? The common thread of 'datasystem is they are bundled systems sold as application solutions rather than "computers". It's part of DEC's history that Digital didn't sell computers, they sold programmed data processors. that and quirky marketing. Allison Ex Digit. From wulfcub at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 21:37:07 2005 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:37:07 -0500 Subject: VI-90 and VG920 terminals? Message-ID: I recently stumbled across an odd set of emulations available in the controller for a printer I have. This system was introduced in the early 80's, and was only recently EOL'd by xerox (the 4090LPS). The default terminal emulation is ADM3, which works well with the Link MC5 terminals. ADM11 is also available, along with VI-90 and VG920, which I've never heard of. To make life a little bit easier while playing with this beast, I would like to tie it to a pc (linux or windows). Changing the system directly is not really an option, as the whole thing is a very bizarre setup, based loosely on DEC architecture. The question is, does anyone know anything about the VI-90 or VG920 terminal emulations? And, does anyone know of a way to directly emulate an ADM3 or ADM11 terminal under linux or windows? (via serial, of course) The system has many options available, including: a scsi tape drive option (I have the equipment, but it's another xerox oddity to run), a shared-disk interface option, ethernet (early implementation for thicknet), a 9-track tape drive (I have, and use, this one), an "online" (bus & tag channel-attach) interface, which I also have. It's an odd, and interesting, system. >From what I've been told, the entire thing was written in RAD50. It can carry, total, about 512M of mem, spread across the various subsystems (Main, Font, Graphics), all on individual chips, nothing socketed, lots of blinkenlights. Anyone wanting more info (or even an entire controller!) just ask! --Shaun -- "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh http://www.lungs4amber.org From rick at rickmurphy.net Tue Oct 25 22:02:04 2005 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:02:04 -0400 Subject: What is DECdatasystem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.0.10.2.20051025230014.0234b798@rickmurphy.net> At 10:16 PM 10/25/2005, Wolfe, Julian wrote: >Okay, looking over the web, I've seen several PDP11 machines marked >"DECdatasystem"... They don't seem to have anything in common...it's >like a >random marking DEC decided to put on machines. Anyone know what it >means? Usually it's a machine with an OS that runs DIBOL programs. COS-310 for the 8s, CTS-300 for the 11s if I remember correctly. As stated already, mostly a marketing term for already existing system configurations. -Rick From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Oct 25 22:02:48 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:02:48 -0500 Subject: What is DECdatasystem? In-Reply-To: <0IOY00CB9466QQT0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: So were these prebuilt systems versus built-to-configure systems? In that case, that would make sense, just like the edusystem -8s. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:28 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: What is DECdatasystem? > >Subject: What is DECdatasystem? > From: "Wolfe, Julian " > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:16:07 -0500 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >Okay, looking over the web, I've seen several PDP11 machines marked >"DECdatasystem"... They don't seem to have anything in common...it's like a >random marking DEC decided to put on machines. Anyone know what it means? The common thread of 'datasystem is they are bundled systems sold as application solutions rather than "computers". It's part of DEC's history that Digital didn't sell computers, they sold programmed data processors. that and quirky marketing. Allison Ex Digit. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 25 22:21:58 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:21:58 -0400 Subject: What is DECdatasystem? Message-ID: <0IOY00KYI6NBDY00@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: What is DECdatasystem? > From: "Julian Wolfe" > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:02:48 -0500 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >So were these prebuilt systems versus built-to-configure systems? Mostly, more like limited menu systems. Aka if you need to do this than buy that. >In that case, that would make sense, just like the edusystem -8s. Very similar. Both were packaged with some options. Allison > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Allison >Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:28 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: What is DECdatasystem? > >> >>Subject: What is DECdatasystem? >> From: "Wolfe, Julian " >> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:16:07 -0500 >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >> >>Okay, looking over the web, I've seen several PDP11 machines marked >>"DECdatasystem"... They don't seem to have anything in common...it's like a >>random marking DEC decided to put on machines. Anyone know what it means? > >The common thread of 'datasystem is they are bundled systems sold as >application solutions rather than "computers". > >It's part of DEC's history that Digital didn't sell computers, they sold >programmed data processors. that and quirky marketing. > >Allison >Ex Digit. > > From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Oct 25 22:28:30 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:28:30 -0400 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... Message-ID: <20051026032829.JTKD5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >OK, I'm wanting to build a board with an 8 bit CPU (probably Z80, >possibly 6502) and a floppy controller IC on board with the intention of >hanging it off my PC (via serial or parallel, undecided yet) and >allowing me to read and write *most* formats from various 1980's 8 bit >micros... Funny, when I asked a few months ago if anyone was interested in collaborating on doing exactly this, I was practically run off the list with comments about how impractical it was, nobody would build it, and wouldn't a catweasel be ever so much better... So I let the idea drop (still might build one privately however). >Intel's 8271 looks like a possibility at the moment, but I thought I'd >poll the list for alternative ideas too. FM support is of course >critical - MFM is less of an issue as the host PC can handle that. > >I've never built any kind of computer from scratch, so it'll be a useful >experience. I figure on putting just enough code in ROM to support >downloading of actual firmware to the device over whatever the link is >to the PC, as that should save a lot of headache! > >Hopefully RAM requirements will be low enough that I can go the SRAM >route and avoid messing around with DRAM refresh (although IIRC the Z80 >has much of the necessary stuff built in...) I think the 8271 is pretty limiting ... I'd vote for a 1793 (or 2793 which has a bulld in data-separator) - it is used in a lot of classic systems, can handle a wide variety of formats, and can do raw track reads. A single 32k SRAM should be plenty to buffer a few tracks, which is really all you need. Have you tried just using the diskette controller in a PC? - I've found that almost all of my P1ish machines can read/write FM, and I've used ImageDisk to backup and restore almost all of the soft- sector formats that I have here (although some are better than others. I've found that Intel mainboards work very well, although the ones I have only support one drive select). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Oct 25 22:47:53 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 05 03:47:53 GMT Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0510260347.AA28203@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Eric J Korpela wrote: > Xilinx used to have software that would run under Solaris... woodelf wrote: : They could indeed. All I know is the free?/low cost software is : windows based : and the hi-priced software is windows/other. I suspect they think if : you are not : using a Pee Sea you have $$$ to shell out for software. Xilinx' free download is available for Winblows and for Linux. I have downloaded the Linux version, but ran into a brick wall installing it. The downloadable package is actually a .sh file that constitutes a /bin/sh script with binary data following it (I know, a totally crazy arrangement, but I didn't look more closely into how it actually works due to lack of interest in this manure). When you run it, it unpacks into a bunch of other files. Those consist of an installer executable and a bunch of files for it to unpack. When I saw that the latter were ZIPs, I thought I would just extract them manually, but not so fast - they are encrypted!!! The fuckers are forcing the use of their assinine installer, which is of course not runnable. Attempting to run it produces a complaint about missing libXm.so.3, i.e., it's some fucking GUI thing. I didn't even bother finding, downloading and compiling whatever package would provide that libXm.so.3, since the next thing it would complain about of course would be that I have no X display. And if I turned inside out to give it the goddamn X display it wants (that would require making a trip to my old facility, which would in turn require borrowing a friend for the duration of the entire procedure since I don't feel safe going there alone [it's a terrible neighbourhood], and none of my friends have that kind of spare time), I'm sure there would be something else that would make it unhappy and it still won't run far enough to unpack the fucking encrypted archive. In short, Xilinx has done more than enough to deserve the death penalty under Galactic law. They are badly in need of a date with Madame La Guillotine. Fortunately, I may have found an alternative solution using Altera. Not that Altera is any better, but the company for which I'm currently doing a consulting project involving FPGAs uses Altera, and I've got Quartus (Altera's SW) for Linux through them. I haven't seen it yet actually, I've just got an E-mail from the boss saying that the CD is on my desk for me to play with tomorrow. So I'll look at it tomorrow. I'm hoping that I can install it on my Linux box at the company and then copy the installed files to my own one (i.e., pirate it). : Back to FPGA software for the VAX, I don't see the hardware a problem : but the software could be still be one. The small PDP'S has hoards of : paper tape : software, the big ones all need a OS. The OS is not a problem - I am the maintainer of the one true OS for the VAX (which is of course 4.3BSD-Quasijarus). MS From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 25 22:51:50 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 04:51:50 +0100 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <20051026032829.JTKD5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20051026032829.JTKD5558.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <435EFD56.50709@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>OK, I'm wanting to build a board with an 8 bit CPU (probably Z80, >>possibly 6502) and a floppy controller IC on board with the intention of >>hanging it off my PC (via serial or parallel, undecided yet) and >>allowing me to read and write *most* formats from various 1980's 8 bit >>micros... > > Funny, when I asked a few months ago if anyone was interested in > collaborating on doing exactly this, I was practically run off the list > with comments about how impractical it was, nobody would build it, > and wouldn't a catweasel be ever so much better... So I let the idea > drop (still might build one privately however). I know you were one of the people I swapped thoughts on this with when I last mentioned it here :) For various reasons the catweasel's impractical for me. But at the same time I don't want to go spending money on new parts when I've got various CPUs, RAM and support chips in the junk box - ISTR that of those who were interested in such a gadget, the interest was primarily in a system using modern parts. Somehow that takes all the fun out of it :) > I think the 8271 is pretty limiting ... I'd vote for a 1793 (or 2793 > which has a bulld in data-separator) - it is used in a lot of classic > systems, can handle a wide variety of formats, and can do raw track > reads. That seems to agree with what others have said. I've certainly got 1770's lying around, not sure about the others. I can't remember what the IC used on the Torch Manta is, but that's a WD of some flavour (I'm reasonably sure it was a 48 pin IC too, not the more typical 40 of most FDCs) - unfortunately I don't have the schematics handy to check... > A single 32k SRAM should be plenty to buffer a few tracks, which is > really all you need. > > Have you tried just using the diskette controller in a PC? Yes, unfortuntely. Ultimately a portable external system would be useful anyway, but if any of my PCs would do it then I'd use those for now as it's mainly Acorn and RML formats that I'm initially interested in. I do still have one machine which I haven't tried yet... cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 25 23:09:54 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:09:54 -0600 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510260347.AA28203@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0510260347.AA28203@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <435F0192.2000407@jetnet.ab.ca> Michael Sokolov wrote: > >Fortunately, I may have found an alternative solution using Altera. Not >that Altera is any better, but the company for which I'm currently doing >a consulting project involving FPGAs uses Altera, and I've got Quartus >(Altera's SW) for Linux through them. I haven't seen it yet actually, >I've just got an E-mail from the boss saying that the CD is on my desk >for me to play with tomorrow. So I'll look at it tomorrow. I'm hoping >that I can install it on my Linux box at the company and then copy the >installed files to my own one (i.e., pirate it). > > > From what I remember of Altera software , it brands itself to the HD id or the network ID. You can edit/develop your work but you can't compile. Also I think you also may be stuck with the GUI they use too. Good luck with the vax project. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Oct 25 23:21:34 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 05 04:21:34 GMT Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0510260421.AA28324@ivan.Harhan.ORG> woodelf wrote: > From what I remember of Altera software , it brands itself to the > HD id or the network ID. I don't see how they can successfully do this under Linux, or any kind of UNIX. I guess they could try, but this "protection" would be laughable - a baby can get around this kind of "copyprotection". It ain't DOS or Winblows, it's Linux! I can intercept all system calls it makes, I can hack the kernel, I can do whatever I want to make it believe it's running on the machine it's "licensed" to. > Also I think you also may be stuck > with the GUI they use too. No, all the work is done by command line tools which the GUI calls, and the command line tools are documented. I'll use them as a backend for Icarus Verilog. MS From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 23:55:06 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 00:55:06 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510260421.AA28324@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0510260421.AA28324@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On 10/26/05, Michael Sokolov wrote: > woodelf wrote: > > > From what I remember of Altera software , it brands itself to the > > HD id or the network ID. > > I don't see how they can successfully do this under Linux, or any kind > of UNIX. I guess they could try, but this "protection" would be > laughable - a baby can get around this kind of "copyprotection". It > ain't DOS or Winblows, it's Linux! I can intercept all system calls it > makes, I can hack the kernel, I can do whatever I want to make it > believe it's running on the machine it's "licensed" to. Altera supplies free "web" edition of its quartus II software too. I am using that and I think it is as good as the linux one. vax, 9000 > > > Also I think you also may be stuck > > with the GUI they use too. > > No, all the work is done by command line tools which the GUI calls, and > the command line tools are documented. I'll use them as a backend for > Icarus Verilog. > > MS > From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Oct 26 00:48:54 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 05 05:48:54 GMT Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0510260548.AA28424@ivan.Harhan.ORG> 9000 VAX wrote: > Altera supplies free "web" edition of its quartus II software too. I > am using that and I think it is as good as the linux one. But it's for Winblows only, isn't it? Dunno about you, but I'm not bringing a Winblows machine into the house, that's absolutely out of the question! Even Linux is right on the limit of what I can tolerate. MS From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Wed Oct 26 01:24:52 2005 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II APEX OS manual posted (Update) In-Reply-To: <20051026004124.29941.qmail@web81003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051026062452.67156.qmail@web81005.mail.yahoo.com> I've now placed all of the rest of my Apex and related doc there as well. http://www.trailingedge.com/apple2/ Also added a couple of Heathkit Computer catalogs up as well at: http://www.trailingedge.com/heathkit/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 26 01:34:36 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:34:36 -0700 Subject: US Sources for old ICs Message-ID: <200510252334360063.034E4237@10.0.0.252> The chat about the FDC reminded me of a data acquisition project I've had partly completed for a couple of years. Where is a good source for purchasing small-quantity ICs in the US? In particular, I'm looking for a few 64Kx9 async FIFOs (e.g. IDT7208 or CY7C466) in DIP packages (I can find the Cypress part at DigiKey, but only in QFP). Suggestions would be welcome. Cheers, Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Oct 26 03:15:40 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:15:40 +0100 Subject: Heathkit stuff on ebay In-Reply-To: <20051026062452.67156.qmail@web81005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005701c5da05$7c87e6a0$5b01a8c0@pc1> > Also added a couple of Heathkit Computer catalogs up > as well at: > > http://www.trailingedge.com/heathkit/ That reminds me about ebay seller "classicheathkit". A few listings are up for various Heathkit-related items and they claim to have bought out a bunch of the stuff and it will be appearing on ebay. All in the UK I think. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From cc at corti-net.de Wed Oct 26 04:39:35 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:39:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... In-Reply-To: <20051025133819.O35084@shell.lmi.net> References: <0IOX0096VLDPPFY0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20051025133819.O35084@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: (All always, the list management is broken, I don't have Allison's posting yet, but the answers this posting...) On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > The IAM interval is easily handled by masking that signal. (interrupt the > cable, or (on older cruder drives) cover the index with tape.) As a note: The IAM is not defined by the IBM standard, there's no IAM on 3740 (FM) or System/34 (MFM) diskettes. > On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: >> Who does 128byte MF sectors??? If you really have to it's >> possible to tell a 765 that it's a short sector in mfm. Robotron for examples uses 128 bytes/sect. MFM so they have 26 sectors per track on a 96 tpi DD 5.25" diskette and have the standard 8" FM sector and track layout. > I have half a dozen formats that I was unable to put into XenoCopy, > due to 128 MFM. I never could get reliable reading, so I did those with > a 1791. I have several PCs and Multi I/O ISA controller cards that can do 128 bytes/sect. MFM. Watch out for the NatSemi DP8473 FDC. Christian From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Oct 26 05:11:51 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:11:51 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Oct 2005 03:47:53 GMT." <0510260347.AA28203@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200510261011.j9QABpmr009866@mwave.heeltoe.com> Michael Sokolov wrote: ... >for me to play with tomorrow. So I'll look at it tomorrow. I'm hoping >that I can install it on my Linux box at the company and then copy the >installed files to my own one (i.e., pirate it). I think quartus may create a disk signature for the win32 version. I seem to recall having trouble moving it one time in the past after a machine died. No idea about linux. [btw: I am enjoying this thread but dont' find the profanity is helping.] Xilinx is a company like any other and will do things that companies think they need to do - frustrating or otherwise. I for one am grateful they give out their low end tools for free. Having suffered through iverilog and cver bugs I'm happy to run modelsim on windows-xp - for free. I seem to manage to get every verilog simulator I use to lock up, crash or do the wrong thing depending on which internal race condition I manage to trigger. -brad From dwight at ca2h0430.amd.com Tue Oct 25 16:49:08 2005 From: dwight at ca2h0430.amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... Message-ID: <200510252149.OAA22337@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Allison" > >The 279X is a more integrated 1793 so thats a good choice too. Hi From scratch, I'd pefer the 2793. There is another option, get a FDC card from an old XT level PC. I did this for may NC4000 machine. It is not anything like a x86 machine. Of course, I could only do 360K disk without modifications to the clock speeds. I don't recall which chip it used but it seem like I remember it being one of the 179X parts. I did all the interface as direct CPU controlled without DMA but then, the NC4000 is one fast processor. Dwight From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Oct 25 14:44:29 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:44:29 +0200 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE21D7@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi Jules, I have a design that worked - 20 years ago, with a 1793. It has a PLL-based data separator, using a 72LS629 and 2 4-bit counters, IIRC. I need to look it up. It was interfaced to 6809 bus signals, so changing it for 6502 is straight forward. I recently bought a few 1793 chips from BGMICRO, and then decided to make my design a lot simpler by using a 2793 as that FDC has a data separator integrated. With the correct clock cyrstal selection you can use the hardware for 3", 3.5", 5.25" _and_ 8" drives (under software control)! I am working on a 2793 which is piggy-back connected to the "Blinkenlight" Core Board which is based on the 6809E and has more than enough RAM and EPROM on board. But that's just a metter of how you write the software How to read the floppy. For instance, sector-wise or track-wise ! I started a webpage on this new project, see www.pdp-11.nl/ in the "my projects" folder. Vince still has Core Board kits (all parts included for $70), so the job is limited to the FDC part. (and the software ...) But it is a 6809E instead of the 6502, but that's a plus !!! Handling double density will become tricky with the 6502, and even with the 6809, because timing (read/write when DRQ is asserted) must be done by interrupt (FIRQ) or use the SYNC instruction. I am waiting on the arrival of my 2nd BGMICRO order that has the 2793 ... gd luck, - Henk, PA8PDP ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Jules Richardson Verzonden: di 25-10-2005 20:14 Aan: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... Chuck Guzis wrote: >>Intel's 8271 looks like a possibility at the moment, but I thought I'd >>poll the list for alternative ideas too. FM support is of course >>critical - MFM is less of an issue as the host PC can handle that. > > > The 8271 is a pile of worms. Don't even bother with it. :-) > In a DIP package, if you want to restrict yourself to 5.25/3.5" MFM and FM > (but not HD) formats, the WD 1770/1772 is a nice compact (28 pin) little I've certainly got 1770 chips lying around unused in the parts box... I think you've just put that at the top of the list :) > Why a floppy to support your device, though? There are many high-speed > interfaces available to choose from nowadays. Why not feed your device via > USB? Rationale: I'm interested in doing this in order to archive old floppies to modern media, and out of the 5 or so PCs I can lay my hands on at home, none are happy with FM data :-( Catweasel's ruled out on grounds of cost, lack of schematics, and the fact that it's an internal board anyway. I need an external box of tricks so that I can easily use it to do archival work both at home and at the museum (and potentially other locations too). I know the museum PCs have serial and parallel ports, but not all of them will have USB; plus I'm hoping to spend zero cash on this and just use parts lying around at home - I'll have various serial & parallel I/O chips but certainly no USB stuff! As an additional thought whilst writing this (admittedly not thought through yet!) serial might be nicer than parallel so that at some future date I can dump all of the necessary firmware onto the disk interface box's ROM and in theory just talk to it using a comms package from the PC host. Lots more work in terms of understanding the various download protocols to do it that way, and it means that the disk interface box needs to understand the resultant disk image format on the PC which I'm not sure I like... but it does mean that all the host PC needs is a serial port and some comms software (which is covered by pretty much any modern-ish PC OS on the planet) rather than any special application to drive the box. If serial's the standard interface though it'd be zero hardware changes to support this in the future - it just means being stuck with a slower serial protocol for disk image transfer, when parallel would be faster. And yeah, I think we've been over this on this list before... :-) cheers Jules This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Oct 26 01:45:19 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:45:19 +0200 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF24C5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi Jules, I replied yesterday evening, but somehow my e-mail did not show up (at least here). So, I resend it. Sorry if it hits the list a second time. I have a design that worked - 20 years ago, with a 1793. It has a PLL-based data separator, using a 72LS629 and 2 4-bit counters, IIRC. I need to look it up. It was interfaced to 6809 bus signals, so changing it for 6502 is straight forward. I recently bought a few 1793 chips from BGMICRO, and then decided to make my design a lot simpler by using a 2793 as that FDC has a data separator integrated. With the correct clock crystal selection you can use the hardware for 3", 3.5", 5.25" _and_ 8" drives (under software control)! I am working on a 2793 which is piggy-back connected to the "Blinkenlight" Core Board which is based on the 6809E and has more than enough RAM and EPROM on board. But that's just a matter of how you write the software how to read the floppy. For instance, sector-wise or track-wise as the 1793 and 2793 have read-track commands. I would not use DRAM chips, but takje a single static 32kx8. Saves work on soldering and room on the board. I started a webpage on this new project, see www.pdp-11.nl/ in the "my projects" folder. Vince still has Core Board kits (all parts included for $70), so the job is limited to the FDC part (and the software ...) But the Core Board is a 6809E instead of the 6502, I regard that's a plus !!! Handling double density will become tricky with the 6502, and even with the 6809, because of timing requirements (polling for DRQ is asserted). Single density can be handled by polling, but double density requires the use of IRQ or FIRQ or the use the SYNC instruction (need connect DRQ* to IRQ or FIRQ). I am waiting on the arrival of my 2nd BGMICRO order that has the 2793 ... gd luck, - Henk, PA8PDP This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Tue Oct 25 19:54:47 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 19:54:47 -0500 Subject: What is DECdatasystem? Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F10611561@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Okay, looking over the web, I've seen several PDP11 machines marked "DECdatasystem"... They don't seem to have anything in common...it's like a random marking DEC decided to put on machines. Anyone know what it means? From john.miramonti at hypertherm.com Tue Oct 25 07:27:35 2005 From: john.miramonti at hypertherm.com (Miramonti, John) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 08:27:35 -0400 Subject: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? Message-ID: <68B5F4BC6852D244BDDAAE69E31B15F9065BF01A@intrepid.hypertherm.com> Hi, I was your email regarding the Radio Shack Electronic LearningLab. I picked one up for my daughter, but it came without the manuals. I'm trying to get a copy. You mentioned "...The PDF file on the RS web site doesn't list things in enough detail...". I've been trying to download the PDF manual, but the upgraded web site apparently doesn't have it. Could you email me a copy? Or could I arrange to get a copy of your manuals? I could trade you a detailed list of components, with part numbers, catalog numbers, etc. Thanks, John Miramonti John.Miramonti at attglobal.net From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 17:27:06 2005 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Rich) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:27:06 +0000 Subject: I'm getting out: Components Available, Part 1 Message-ID: <200510252227.06649.richard.beaudry@gmail.com> Hello all, For many reasons, which I don't care to detail, I'm getting out of the "business" of vintage computing (In fact, I'm no longer subscribed, so don't reply to the list, because I won't get it). 95% of my collection has been sold, given away, or dumped, and I only have a few more items, plus the components listed below. I am offering these components to the best offer, plus shipping from MA, USA, Zip Code 01473. I *strongly* prefer PayPal, but will take USPS Money Order (*no other payment methods, please*). These components have been stored cool and dry, but are untested. Also, many of them have *not* been stored in anti-stat drawers, so please keep that in mind. I will ship on anti-stat foam if posible, or wrapped in foil if I am unable to put them in anti-stat foam. Vast majority of date codes are in the late 70' to early 80's. I'm not sure what a lot of these even do, and I don't have datasheets, so you're on your own identifying them :-) I'll keep the bidding open until 10/31, midnight, my time. If you are interested, please contact me *off-list* (richard.beaudry at gmail.com) with offers, and let me know your ZIP or country, so I can estimate shipping. I will let the final list of people know on 11/1 (or thereabouts) by email what they can get. Part 2 will be listed in a week or two, when I finish cataloging it... Here's the list: Qty. Item. 6 HP 5082-7340 Hexadecimal Display 8 TI TIL311 Display 2 7812 TO-220 CASE 6 LM-317T TO-220 CASE 5 UA741CP (TI) 8-PIN DIP 68 UA7912UC TO-220 CASE 14 UA78H05SC TO-3 CASE 12 UA78H12ASC TO-3 CASE 20 VH248 FULL-WAVE BRIDGE RECTIFIER 76 TL780-05CKC TO-220 (HIGH-CURRENT 5V REG., I THINK) 10 1A 250V FAST-BLOW 3AG FUSE 6 40-PIN Augat Socket (white plastic, gold machined-pin) labeled "Microprocessor Carrier" 28 18-pin Augat machined-pin wire wrap socket 4 40-pin Augat machined-pin wire wrap socket 9 28-pin Augat machined-pin wire wrap socket 34 18-pin Augat machined-pin wire wrap socket 4 16-pin single-row header, wire-wrap tail 35 30-pin dual-row header (15-pins per row), solder-tail 11 spst momentary push-button switches (6 black, 5 red), button dia. 1/4" 25 spdt mini-toggle switches, 3A 125VAC, 3/8" toggle length 45 spdt toggle switches, marked with both 2A 250VAC and 5A 120VAC, C&K UII, 7/16" toggle length 1 AD7506SD 2 AD521JD 4 DAC 888 FX 2 DAC 08 BC 1 DAC 0800 LCN 4 AI-2625-5 15 UGN3203 24 ULN2004A 11 ULN2068B 73 AM26LS31PC 71 AM26LS33PC 11 N82S103N (some late 70's date codes) 19 1489 RS-232 (mixed vendors) 41 1488 RS-232 (mixed vendors) 7 N8T95 1 N8X320N 4 N8T97N 12 N8T32N 1 TRW 08HUJ5C 39 TRW TDC-1006J 9 SAA1027 8 MC10H166P 4 TCM29C13J 25 N8T30N 1 WD2010B-PL 1 SMC FDC 1795 1 SAB 1797-02P 1 WD8250CL-20 1 WD10C20B-PH 1 WD1100-CE 1 WD1010PL-05 1 WD1015-PL 1 Adaptec AIC-100 1 Adaptec AIC-250 4 AY-3-8910A 2 ISD 1000AP ('93-'94 date) voice recorder IC 3 N8S100N 9 MM58167AN 25 N82S129N 2 UM8397 2 2122CN (logo looks like "XR") 3 2120CP (same "XR" looking logo) 6 AMD AM9264DPC 1 Rockwell (?) 10464-13 1 SC87C51 CGN40 1 NCR 90C98 1 VTI VL82C50-PC 1 Intel p82586 1 HM82C11C 2 AY-5-1013A UART 1 R68561P 1 COM9026BI 1 R2121A-01 2 8153C (logo looks like "EA") 2 8151C (again, "EA" logo) 1 Intel P89027 1 TLC 32040CN 2 N9403N 1 N8X305I 6 N8X300I 1 Intel 8288 1 Intel 8284 2 LM311N 7 9643TC 6 MC10H161P 3 DG201ACJ 4 MM5280N 2 MCM6164C55 1 Analog Devices ADLH0033G (circular can, 12-pin) 1 LM319N 1 LM101AD 1 XEBEC 104648D 8 Intel P5101L-1 5 NEC marked D780C-1 3 unused PAL16L8A-2CN 10 MC14050BCP 1 VH048 Bridge Rectifier 6 VH448 Bridge Rectifier 1 VARO IN4436, TO-3 case w/ what looks like a heat sink Thanks, Rich B. From tequilizer at gmx.net Tue Oct 25 16:35:53 2005 From: tequilizer at gmx.net (Tequi Lizer) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:35:53 +0200 Subject: HP 9845 C with 280 option startup failure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435EA539.5090409@gmx.net> >> I recently acquired a HP 9845C option 280 (was looking for it for a >> really long time). >> > > I don't know all the option codes for the 9845. I assume at least this > has a 98770 colour monitor nad the high-speed (bit-slice) language > processor option. > Exactly. The 280 option was like the 290, less the database development & the datacomm features. > Firstly, try contacting the HPCC secretary, Dave Colver (I think the > details are on the HPCC web site, http://www.hpcc.org/ , if not, ask me). > If you ask him nicely, he might send you a reverse-engineered schematic > for the 9845. This is for a 9845B with the high-speed lagnuage processor > and the 98780 enhanced mono monitor, so it's not directly applicable to > your machine, but it might be a start. Be warned that it's over 200 pages > long (that is _just_ a schematic). > > The HP service manual is on http://www.hpmuseum.net, along with a manual > for the colour monitor. These do not seem to cover the high-speed > language processor at all, and they are boardswapper guides with no > schematics or even pinouts. But you probably should read those too. > Actually, there was a supplement for the model 200 line for that manual which covers the high-speed processor in chapter 5 (HP part no. 09845-92030). Unfortunately, this document will be for sure hard to find (or even lost forever...) > I would love to see inside the colour monitor (that is, I'd like to pull > one apart and really examine the boards. I am told there are some 2901's > in there for the video processor. The 98780 mono monitor has an HP 64 pin > ASIC for this. > > Yes, the 98770A has a couple of AMD ASICS for the vector processor. However, not 2901 like the bit slice processor, but three 2377 plus one 2378. If you like to get a view on the boards, I can send you some hires images. >> The machine is in an overall good condition, however it hangs during >> memory test ("MEMORY TEST IN PROGRESS"), even after cleaning all board >> connectors, resocketing all ROMs & repeated control-stop's. Before >> > > Hmmm... Probably toally irrelevant, but there's a signal from the monitor > to the I/O processor -- basically a frame-rate interrupt, that IIRC has > to be present for the bus arbitration to start up properly. If you run > the machine without a monitor there's a turn-on fixture that you have to > plug into the LH monitor connector (on the video interface PCB) to > provide this. > > The machine behaves with color monitor installed exactly the same as without monitor. So the IIRC may be a candidate. I have another 9845A around, but I'm not sure whether a 9845C can be combined with the monitor of a 9845A without harm, although the interface is technically similar. > >> entering nirvana the printer outputs a couple of memory addresses. >> Although lots of defects may be responsible, I assume there is a >> combination of both a bad RAM chip and a ROM failure, since a RAM defect >> alone should (?) not crash the system during the test. >> > > Maybe... Maybe not... > > How much do you know about the buses of this machine? It's not at all > simple. There are 2 processors -- the PPU (Peripheral Processor Unit) on > the left side and the LPU (Language Processor Unit) on the right side. > Each processor has buffers/latches on the board that connect it to one of > 2 buses (I think HP called them X and Y, I call them L and P for obvious > reasons). The L bus carries all the memory on the LH boards, and the ROMs > in the RH drawer. The P bus carries all the memroy on the RH board and > the ROMs in the LH drawer (I think I've remembered all that correctly). > Also, the test side of the video display does DMA from main memory via > the buffers on the PPU board, it transfers a line of text at a time to > buffer storage on the interface PCB and thnece to the text board in the > monitor. > > What I am wondering is that if there's a bus problem, or the arbitration > logic (which is spread between the 2 processor boards) is playing up, you > could get some really odd failures. > > > >> The printout looks like this: >> >> 000000 100112 052525 >> 000000 110112 052525 >> 000000 120112 052525 >> 000000 130112 052525 >> >> I guess the first number is the block ID, the next is the memory address >> within the block, and the last number is the test pattern, each in octal >> representation. >> >> Does anyone have an idea >> >> - how to really interpret the memory test printouts and >> > > Alas not, and I don't think there's anything in the service manual. The > schematic would at least relate addresses and bits to actual chips. > > Well, I wonder how a service expert could get around with the "service manual". Probably HP practiced a philosophy just like "those beasts are expensive enough, just exchange the complete assembly". > >> - how to check the ROMs for bad data? >> >> Maybe there is anyone out there who did the job to read out the contents >> of his 9845 ROMs (they are all in sockets) for a direct comparison. >> > > I haven't done yet. What I can tell you is that these are not totally > standard ROMs, they have internal address latchs (the buses on the 9845, > like that of the 9825, being multipexed address and data). You ahve to > deassert and reassert the chip select line after changing the address to > latch the new address in. > > I wonder whether the ROMs are the same types used widely in HP measuring equipment. An example can be found under http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/hp/3456a/ I'd like to give an eprommer a try to read out the content, as soon as I have built a small adapter for this. The ROMs are worth for getting backup'ed. -- Ansgar From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Wed Oct 26 07:06:42 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:06:42 -0500 Subject: US Sources for old ICs In-Reply-To: <200510252334360063.034E4237@10.0.0.252> References: <200510252334360063.034E4237@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <435F7152.1000602@vzavenue.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: >The chat about the FDC reminded me of a data acquisition project I've had >partly completed for a couple of years. > >Where is a good source for purchasing small-quantity ICs in the US? In >particular, I'm looking for a few 64Kx9 async FIFOs (e.g. IDT7208 or >CY7C466) in DIP packages (I can find the Cypress part at DigiKey, but only >in QFP). > >Suggestions would be welcome. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > > http://www.rocelec.com/ -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 26 07:23:05 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:23:05 -0400 Subject: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... Message-ID: <0IOY00E6HVP1VL60@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Looking for an 8 bit FDC... > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:28:30 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Have you tried just using the diskette controller in a PC? - I've >found that almost all of my P1ish machines can read/write FM, and >I've used ImageDisk to backup and restore almost all of the soft- >sector formats that I have here (although some are better than others. >I've found that Intel mainboards work very well, although the ones >I have only support one drive select). Again an older 486 and an AT (older) FDC is a hard solution to beat for the majority. Amazing how an relatively easy 80% solution covers 97% of the need. A PC controller isn't a complete solution but for a huge amount of day to day effort it's a usable solution. Those disks that cant be read with that solution are already known. Those bad actors are either hard sectord where each is likely a special case or sufficiently odd enough to warrent keeping a sample system fully operational. The alternate is some system that has a bus so you can insert controllers to fit the oddball situations and just plug them in. I use S100 for that, right now the only formats that crate can't handle is the GCR formats (no systems here use it) and hard sector other than NS* though I do have an Altair hard sector system. The only problem that isn't solved however is they guy on the other side of the planet with the only other oddball system like it and needs a boot disk. I've have had this problem since I put a NS* conttroller in my first S100 system in '77. That problem is what I want is on brand Q media and format and I have brand N that doesn't do that. Allison From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 26 08:24:35 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:24:35 Subject: US Sources for old ICs In-Reply-To: <200510252334360063.034E4237@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051026082435.3d7fdcc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> A friend of mine has been using Mouser Electronics lately and has been happy with them. OTOH have you tried E-bay? Sometimes you can get small lots of ICs for very reasonable prices. This guy always has small lots of ICs, diodes and transistors. Most of it is mil-spec parts and are excess from production out of places like Martin Marietta and is of excellant quality. (Tell him that Joe sent you.) > but only in QFP). The small surface mount only packages are a BIG problem for individuals that want to build a single circuit. A friend of mine designs and builds a lot of circuits commercailly and he's always raising hell with the IC manufacturers and trying to get them to produce chips in DIP packages. I keep telling him that it's hopeless. Joe At 11:34 PM 10/25/05 -0700, you wrote: >The chat about the FDC reminded me of a data acquisition project I've had >partly completed for a couple of years. > >Where is a good source for purchasing small-quantity ICs in the US? In >particular, I'm looking for a few 64Kx9 async FIFOs (e.g. IDT7208 or >CY7C466) in DIP packages (I can find the Cypress part at DigiKey, but only >in QFP). > >Suggestions would be welcome. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 26 08:36:33 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:36:33 Subject: HP 9845 C with 280 option startup failure In-Reply-To: <435EA539.5090409@gmx.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051026083633.3ae7a9cc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:35 PM 10/25/05 +0200, you wrote: > >> >Actually, there was a supplement for the model 200 line for that manual >which covers the high-speed processor in chapter 5 (HP part no. >09845-92030). Unfortunately, this document will be for sure hard to find >(or even lost forever...) The paper copies may be unobtainable but HP also sold microfiche copies of many of their manuals and I've been able to buy those when there were no paper copies available. The microfiche copies usually had almost the same pn but one digit difference. For example your doc may be available as 09845-92031. Call HP's ordering desk and talk to them and see if they can locate a microfiche copy. BTW as of about four years ago HP BADLY wanted a working HP 9845C but NO ONE had one. The Cs had a real problem with the monitors and most of them went up in flames (NOT an exaggeration!) The power supplies in the monitors were an abomination. Joe From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 26 07:44:41 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510260347.AA28203@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from Michael Sokolov at "Oct 26, 5 03:47:53 am" Message-ID: <200510261244.FAA10078@floodgap.com> > In short, Xilinx has done more than enough to deserve the death penalty > under Galactic law. They are badly in need of a date with Madame La > Guillotine. What, because they used a *graphical* installer? Horrors! Next, they'll expect you to have a monitor! Where will it end! -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl. ------------- From vcf at siconic.com Wed Oct 26 09:06:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Boardswapping has a place and is a legitimate part of the history of > > computers going way, way back. It is how things were and are done, and > > I have never found 'that's the way things are done' to be a sufficient > reason for carrying on doing them that way. If you can prove that your repair business model would be more successful than the one that has evolved over time in the electronics industry then you should write a book and become a consultant and make millions. Why waste your breath with a bunch of geeks like us? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 26 10:31:08 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:31:08 -0400 Subject: US Sources for old ICs References: <200510252334360063.034E4237@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <17247.41276.165791.488733@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> The chat about the FDC reminded me of a data acquisition Chuck> project I've had partly completed for a couple of years. Chuck> Where is a good source for purchasing small-quantity ICs in Chuck> the US? In particular, I'm looking for a few 64Kx9 async Chuck> FIFOs (e.g. IDT7208 or CY7C466) in DIP packages (I can find Chuck> the Cypress part at DigiKey, but only in QFP). Jameco tends to have the older stuff in the older packages. They still sell 4116s, for example, and 7400 series (plain 7400, not the 74ABCDEF00 newfangled variants). paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 26 10:43:57 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:43:57 -0400 Subject: US Sources for old ICs References: <200510252334360063.034E4237@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20051026082435.3d7fdcc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <17247.42045.755704.853377@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: Joe> The small surface mount only packages are a BIG problem for Joe> individuals that want to build a single circuit. A friend of Joe> mine designs and builds a lot of circuits commercailly and he's Joe> always raising hell with the IC manufacturers and trying to get Joe> them to produce chips in DIP packages. I keep telling him that Joe> it's hopeless. There's at least one company that builds SMT to DIP adapters, so you can plug SMT packaged chips into DIP prototyping systems and the like. Of course manufacturers don't want to use DIPs. They are electrically inferior. For that matter, they are also obsolete -- if they made DIP packaged chips they would certainly be very low volume products. I understand the preference for DIPs in amateur work, though SMT isn't really all that hard. But I can't imagine any reason for wanting DIPs in new commercial designs. They are bigger, slower, not RoHS compliant, ... paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 26 10:53:22 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:53:22 -0700 Subject: VI-90 and VG920 terminals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:37 PM -0500 10/25/05, Wulf daMan wrote: >emulations? And, does anyone know of a way to directly emulate an ADM3 or >ADM11 terminal under linux or windows? (via serial, of course) There is at least one commercial terminal emulator that can do ADM3, I can't remember if it's Mac or Windows. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Wed Oct 26 10:53:27 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:53:27 -0400 Subject: US Sources for old ICs Message-ID: I use BG Micro a lot for some older semis, including plain "S" TTL ones and various SRAMs. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 11:31 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: US Sources for old ICs >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> The chat about the FDC reminded me of a data acquisition Chuck> project I've had partly completed for a couple of years. Chuck> Where is a good source for purchasing small-quantity ICs in Chuck> the US? In particular, I'm looking for a few 64Kx9 async Chuck> FIFOs (e.g. IDT7208 or CY7C466) in DIP packages (I can find Chuck> the Cypress part at DigiKey, but only in QFP). Jameco tends to have the older stuff in the older packages. They still sell 4116s, for example, and 7400 series (plain 7400, not the 74ABCDEF00 newfangled variants). paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 26 11:40:02 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:40:02 -0600 Subject: US Sources for old ICs In-Reply-To: <17247.42045.755704.853377@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200510252334360063.034E4237@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20051026082435.3d7fdcc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <17247.42045.755704.853377@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <435FB162.3020408@jetnet.ab.ca> Paul Koning wrote: >Of course manufacturers don't want to use DIPs. They are electrically >inferior. For that matter, they are also obsolete -- if they made DIP >packaged chips they would certainly be very low volume products. > >I understand the preference for DIPs in amateur work, though SMT isn't >really all that hard. But I can't imagine any reason for wanting DIPs >in new commercial designs. They are bigger, slower, not RoHS >compliant, ... > > > I just want PLCC packaging and 5 volt logic. I keep looking at all the new FPGA logic thinking that would be a nice chip and I don't like the packaging or voltage.Also with all the new chips you get more pins, but more of them are power. > paul > > Also all my designs are nice and slow LS speeds.That is not to say I may not go faster but right now slow I/O devices are the factor for me. PS. BG. Micro also has some nice heat sinks just in case you need them for a linear power supply, From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 26 11:43:48 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:43:48 -0400 Subject: US Sources for old ICs Message-ID: <0IOZ00MF67RIJCJ0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: US Sources for old ICs > From: Paul Koning > Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:31:08 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: > > Chuck> The chat about the FDC reminded me of a data acquisition > Chuck> project I've had partly completed for a couple of years. > > Chuck> Where is a good source for purchasing small-quantity ICs in > Chuck> the US? In particular, I'm looking for a few 64Kx9 async > Chuck> FIFOs (e.g. IDT7208 or CY7C466) in DIP packages (I can find > Chuck> the Cypress part at DigiKey, but only in QFP). > >Jameco tends to have the older stuff in the older packages. They >still sell 4116s, for example, and 7400 series (plain 7400, not the >74ABCDEF00 newfangled variants). > > paul JDRmicrdevices get the catalog. Oddball stuff like the CY466 won't be there but TTL and CMOS generic logic is. For the oddballs maybe from Digikey or Mouser. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 26 11:45:39 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:45:39 -0400 Subject: US Sources for old ICs Message-ID: <0IOZ00GF77UKR9Q0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: US Sources for old ICs > From: Paul Koning > Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:43:57 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: > > Joe> The small surface mount only packages are a BIG problem for > Joe> individuals that want to build a single circuit. A friend of > Joe> mine designs and builds a lot of circuits commercailly and he's > Joe> always raising hell with the IC manufacturers and trying to get > Joe> them to produce chips in DIP packages. I keep telling him that > Joe> it's hopeless. > >There's at least one company that builds SMT to DIP adapters, so you >can plug SMT packaged chips into DIP prototyping systems and the like. > >Of course manufacturers don't want to use DIPs. They are electrically >inferior. For that matter, they are also obsolete -- if they made DIP >packaged chips they would certainly be very low volume products. > >I understand the preference for DIPs in amateur work, though SMT isn't >really all that hard. But I can't imagine any reason for wanting DIPs >in new commercial designs. They are bigger, slower, not RoHS >compliant, ... > I prefer the larger SMT parts but I don't get worked up if what I get is what I can get. At upper HF and VHF/UHF SMT is the way to go even if your doing deadbug (ugly over groundplane). Allison From marvin at rain.org Wed Oct 26 11:49:13 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:49:13 -0700 Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer CULTURE. Message-ID: <435FB389.B9ECF61F@rain.org> Board swaping and component replacement both have their place and that place depends on your particular philosophy and goals. For myself, I look at component replacement as a way actually learning how things work instead of shotgunning a problem until it appears to have been solved. Actually understanding how something works leads to progress while I *firmly* believe that the board swapping only mentality leads on a spiral path downwards. Board swapping is the obvious answer to the time problem of reducing downtime ... most of the time :). A good analagy that most of us have run into is the "my son/daughter/friend/??? is an expert with computers and can fix anything." Most of these people are called experts *only* because of they know a bit more than the person making the comment. Knowing how to reformat and reinstall an OS has its place, but without knowing what is going on, it is really easy to reinstall the same problems that generated the "Oh, you need to reformat the HD ..." And Tony's comment about "that's the way things are done ..." is a great statement that I fully believe in and support!!! A sad (to me anyway) commentary on people in the US are the number of people who prefer to buy an assembled and tested unit instead of building it themselves when given an option. On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Boardswapping has a place and is a legitimate part of the history of > > computers going way, way back. It is how things were and are done, and > > I have never found 'that's the way things are done' to be a sufficient > reason for carrying on doing them that way. If you can prove that your repair business model would be more successful than the one that has evolved over time in the electronics industry then you should write a book and become a consultant and make millions. Why waste your breath with a bunch of geeks like us? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Oct 26 11:51:52 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:51:52 +0200 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C38@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> References: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C38@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> Message-ID: <1130345512.12035.7.camel@fortran> On Fri, 2005-10-21 at 06:51 -0600, Gary Fisher wrote: > Take a look at item #8707485844 > It went for USD $7,877.11 for a supposedly serial number 3 unit Heh, so now the first three Altairs are accounted for, then? #1 lost in the mail, #2 in the basement of Robert Cringely (sp?), and now #3 :) -toresbe From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 26 11:53:31 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:53:31 -0400 Subject: US Sources for old ICs References: <200510252334360063.034E4237@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20051026082435.3d7fdcc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <17247.42045.755704.853377@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <435FB162.3020408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <17247.46219.580869.549175@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "woodelf" == woodelf writes: woodelf> I just want PLCC packaging and 5 volt logic. I keep looking woodelf> at all the new FPGA logic thinking that would be a nice chip woodelf> and I don't like the packaging or voltage.Also with all the woodelf> new chips you get more pins, but more of them are power. Check out Lattice. They have nice CPLDs, some approaching FPGA complexity. Many have "easy" packaging -- no DIP but certainly PLCC. And there are whole series that run on 5 volts. I've used them; the tools are pretty good too. (Win only, as usual, sorry...) Yes, new chips have more power pins because they have higher clock frequencies. Some of them need it for current rating, too, but the usual reason is to keep the inductance low. With a 100 MHz clock, this matters... paul From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Oct 26 12:25:30 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: US Sources for old ICs In-Reply-To: <17247.42045.755704.853377@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200510252334360063.034E4237@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20051026082435.3d7fdcc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <17247.42045.755704.853377@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200510261729.NAA01197@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Of course manufacturers don't want to use DIPs. They are > electrically inferior. Why? Is it just the bulk lead capacitance, or is there some other way in which a DIP package is electrically deficient? > [DIPs] are bigger, slower, not RoHS compliant, ... Bigger, yes. Slower, I can't see why, unless it's bulk capacitance. RoHS compliant, that's a historical accident rather than anything inherent in DIPs, isn't it? I can't see any reason why a DIP couldn't be made as cleanly and compliantly as the corresponding surface-mount part. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 26 12:35:23 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:35:23 -0400 Subject: US Sources for old ICs References: <200510252334360063.034E4237@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20051026082435.3d7fdcc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <17247.42045.755704.853377@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200510261729.NAA01197@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <17247.48731.123866.671194@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> Of course manufacturers don't want to use DIPs. They are >> electrically inferior. der> Why? Is it just the bulk lead capacitance, or is there some der> other way in which a DIP package is electrically deficient? Lead capacitance, lead inductance. And you rarely can use more than one or two power/ground leads. Modern high speed devices often have dozens of power and ground connections to keep the power clean. I suspect SMTs may be thermally better, too -- same reason, shorter lead length from die to PCB. >> [DIPs] are bigger, slower, not RoHS compliant, ... der> Bigger, yes. Slower, I can't see why, unless it's bulk der> capacitance. RoHS compliant, that's a historical accident der> rather than anything inherent in DIPs, isn't it? I can't see der> any reason why a DIP couldn't be made as cleanly and compliantly der> as the corresponding surface-mount part. Agreed. But I don't expect any lead-free DIPs. RoHS is forcing manufacturers to look at every part they sell, and decide either to go through the expense of updating it, or to drop it as obsolete or too low volume to be worth the trouble. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 26 12:42:51 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:42:51 -0600 Subject: US Sources for old ICs In-Reply-To: <17247.46219.580869.549175@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200510252334360063.034E4237@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20051026082435.3d7fdcc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <17247.42045.755704.853377@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <435FB162.3020408@jetnet.ab.ca> <17247.46219.580869.549175@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <435FC01B.4060700@jetnet.ab.ca> Paul Koning wrote: >Check out Lattice. They have nice CPLDs, some approaching FPGA >complexity. Many have "easy" packaging -- no DIP but certainly PLCC. >And there are whole series that run on 5 volts. I've used them; the >tools are pretty good too. (Win only, as usual, sorry...) > > > I am liking the small CPLD's more and more mainly that you don't have to configure them on power up. I use Atmel since I can get the devopment kit and CPLD's from Digi-Key. It is about 120 clb's each for the 2 chips making up the data path and 90? for the unfinished control unit. >Yes, new chips have more power pins because they have higher clock >frequencies. Some of them need it for current rating, too, but the >usual reason is to keep the inductance low. With a 100 MHz clock, >this matters... > I allways wonder what the real clock speed is, after marketing is done with it. :) > paul > > Ok , you can snicker at me ... I am using lowest speed err lowest cost chips, but then I just plan to run at 6800 speeds. PS. If somebody could sell me a low cost high speed paper tape punch/reader I might even do a PDP ?? clone to stay on topic. From jrice54 at blackcube.org Wed Oct 26 12:48:25 2005 From: jrice54 at blackcube.org (James Rice) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:48:25 -0500 Subject: US Sources for old ICs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435FC169.6030700@blackcube.org> I like dealing with BG Micro. Of course it helps to be less than eight miles from them, so I can just do will call. Mouser and Allied are both good about will call too and they are both close to customers I call on frequently. Cini, Richard wrote: >I use BG Micro a lot for some older semis, including plain "S" TTL ones and >various SRAMs. > >- > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 26 12:50:10 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:50:10 -0700 Subject: US Sources for old ICs In-Reply-To: <17247.46219.580869.549175@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200510252334360063.034E4237@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20051026082435.3d7fdcc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <17247.42045.755704.853377@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <435FB162.3020408@jetnet.ab.ca> <17247.46219.580869.549175@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200510261050100321.006787B2@10.0.0.252> Sigh. I'd forgotten about RoHS; I guess this means that in the future, it's NOS or pulls if I want DIPs. I'm getting too old for this--even with DIP packages, I'm using a binocular loupe just to make out the part numbers and make sure that I get the right pin with a probe. 20 MHz is fast for me, so I don't even need the speed advantage. 5V parts will probably be impossible to get before long. I'll probably use the PLCC parts and have to redo the board artwork for the FIFO. I was familiar with the sources everyone mentioned, but had forgotten about BG Micro--some very reasonably-priced vintage stuff there, thanks. Cheers, Chuck From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 12:59:47 2005 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:59:47 -0700 Subject: OLD SCSI tower parts In-Reply-To: <4358F5B2.1090304@atarimuseum.com> References: <0IOP003EYKHSXQA0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <002501c5d63a$1ce2f3d0$c1781941@game> <4358F252.7060001@yahoo.co.uk> <4358F5B2.1090304@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: CI Designs actually got out the first clones of the rails used in AT boxes, and later expanded to building up boxes for peripherals. Their building is local to me, and I have seen lots of scrap from them over the years. I never got the slide photos to come up, but I don't have much in the way of this sort of scrap. I just did a purge of my storage where that was, and let all my bent metal go to the skip in the process. Jim On 10/21/05, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Unless they went with their own off the wall internal design (ala > Compaq) then most used the standard black plastic rails (there are about > 2-3 different variations) or the "C" bracket shaped metal rails, so if > you can take a ruler and put one of the rails next to it and take some > photo's, that would certainly help. > > > > From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Oct 26 13:49:24 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist Message-ID: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Hey all, I've got a DEC Alpha system that I can grab from work but not until I clean off the hard drives. It's a really nice system (server tower plus expansion, tons of docs and disks, etc.) that I'd like to make available at the VCF. The question is: how do I clean the drives completely without any real chance of data being recovered? The only other option would be to leave the drives behind so they can be crushed. I don't really know VMS and I'm not sure what versions are available, etc. Any help would be appreciated. -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 26 14:38:18 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:38:18 -0700 Subject: US Sources for old ICs References: <200510252334360063.034E4237@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20051026082435.3d7fdcc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <17247.42045.755704.853377@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <435FDB2B.DA2448F2@cs.ubc.ca> Paul Koning wrote: > There's at least one company that builds SMT to DIP adapters, so you > can plug SMT packaged chips into DIP prototyping systems and the like. > > Of course manufacturers don't want to use DIPs. They are electrically > inferior. For that matter, they are also obsolete -- if they made DIP > packaged chips they would certainly be very low volume products. I get a kick out of the back-to-the-future aspect of SMT packages, considering the lineage/similarity of SMT to the flatpak IC cases (TO-85,91,etc.) of the early '60s, which predated DIPs. Across the history of ICs, DIP packaging begins to look like a 25-to-30-year sidebar. From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Oct 26 14:50:45 2005 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:50:45 -0400 Subject: US Sources for old ICs Message-ID: Brent wrote: > Across the history of ICs, DIP packaging begins to look like a > 25-to-30-year sidebar. I like the way "flip chip" (not just the term, but the concept) is coming back into vogue, forty years after DEC registered it as a trademark. Tim. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Oct 26 14:52:00 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 05 19:52:00 GMT Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0510261952.AA29388@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > What, because they used a *graphical* installer? No, because they encrypted the ZIPs to make it impossible to bypass said installer. MS From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 26 15:29:40 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510261952.AA29388@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from Michael Sokolov at "Oct 26, 5 07:52:00 pm" Message-ID: <200510262029.NAA08732@floodgap.com> > > What, because they used a *graphical* installer? > > No, because they encrypted the ZIPs to make it impossible to bypass said > installer. Yeah, but if it wanted libX for the installer and you don't have it, even if you could bypass it, the odds are pretty freaking good that the main program would require libX also. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The only thing to fear is fearlessness -- R. E. M. ------------------------- From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Oct 26 15:37:32 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 05 20:37:32 GMT Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0510262037.AA29573@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Yeah, but if it wanted libX for the installer and you don't have it, even > if you could bypass it, the odds are pretty freaking good that the main > program would require libX also. There is more than one "main program". There are command line tools that do the real work and a GUI front end for them. I only care about the former, I'm fine with never being able to run the latter - I don't need no fucking sissy GUI shit. MS From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Oct 26 15:43:49 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:43:49 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510262037.AA29573@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0510262037.AA29573@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051026164050.01ef7be0@mail.earthlink.net> and I don't need to hear your profanity about technology that you do not care to use. Others don't seem to have a swear to "talk" and they don't seem to have a problem using whatever software tools are necessary to get the job done. At 04:37 PM 10/26/2005, you wrote: >Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Yeah, but if it wanted libX for the installer and you don't have it, even > > if you could bypass it, the odds are pretty freaking good that the main > > program would require libX also. > >There is more than one "main program". There are command line tools >that do the real work and a GUI front end for them. I only care about >the former, I'm fine with never being able to run the latter - I don't >need no fucking sissy GUI shit. > >MS From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 26 16:01:12 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:01:12 -0400 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist References: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: <17247.61080.58828.177042@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Erik" == Erik Klein writes: Erik> Hey all, I've got a DEC Alpha system that I can grab from work Erik> but not until I clean off the hard drives. Erik> It's a really nice system (server tower plus expansion, tons of Erik> docs and disks, etc.) that I'd like to make available at the Erik> VCF. Erik> The question is: how do I clean the drives completely without Erik> any real chance of data being recovered? The only other option Erik> would be to leave the drives behind so they can be crushed. Erik> I don't really know VMS and I'm not sure what versions are Erik> available, etc. I don't remember enough VMS DCL. But back in those days, there usually was an INITIALIZE command to put a new file system on a disk. And since disks typically had flaws that would be mapped around in the field (as opposed to at the factory, or in disk controller microcode) there were options to have it do a full disk surface scan. (On RSTS, which also uses DCL but doesn't always match VMS syntax, there's an EXERCISE switch that asks for that.) If you do a full scan, that writes every block with a test pattern, which blows away all the customer data. So try "HELP INITIALIZE" for hints. paul From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Oct 26 16:10:13 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:10:13 +0100 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist In-Reply-To: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: On 26/10/05 19:49, "Erik Klein" wrote: > The question is: how do I clean the drives completely without any real > chance of data being recovered? The only other option would be to leave > the drives behind so they can be crushed. Later versions of VMS have an $init/erase command that physically writes zeroes to the disk; the best way of properly initialising is to put the drives through a degausser but even that might not please the security conscious. I can't remember which version that command became available though.....6.2? Cheers a From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Oct 26 16:13:36 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: US Sources for old ICs In-Reply-To: <200510261729.NAA01197@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > Why? Is it just the bulk lead capacitance, or is there some other way > in which a DIP package is electrically deficient? Back in the ECL 100K days, going from a DIP to a flatpack would shave 200 ps. This mattered a great deal back then. Of course now, everything works at 100K speeds. They also made for less "bumps" in the transmission line aspects of the traces. Not a big difference, but enough to think about. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Oct 26 16:15:52 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:15:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: US Sources for old ICs In-Reply-To: <435FDB2B.DA2448F2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > I get a kick out of the back-to-the-future aspect of SMT packages, > considering the lineage/similarity of SMT to the flatpak IC cases > (TO-85,91,etc.) of the early '60s, which predated DIPs. Ever notice that in the 60s and 70s, they did not use flatpacks all that properly? For some reason, the philosophy was to have the leads quite long. No real reason for that, is there? The Japanese consumer market showed the world how to do it right. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 26 16:18:33 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:18:33 -0400 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist References: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: <17247.62121.324812.15785@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Adrian" == Adrian Graham writes: Adrian> On 26/10/05 19:49, "Erik Klein" Adrian> wrote: >> The question is: how do I clean the drives completely without any >> real chance of data being recovered? The only other option would >> be to leave the drives behind so they can be crushed. Adrian> Later versions of VMS have an $init/erase command that Adrian> physically writes zeroes to the disk; the best way of Adrian> properly initialising is to put the drives through a Adrian> degausser ... NO! That will destroy your drives permanently. If you do that, you'll erase the servo data, which means that all you have left is a paperweight. At one time there existed drives that have no servo data, but I think all of those are sufficiently ancient that VMS doesn't support them. The only example I can think of is the RK05. paul From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Oct 26 16:23:26 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:23:26 +0100 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <435FF3CE.5050407@gjcp.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > > > On 26/10/05 19:49, "Erik Klein" wrote: > > >>The question is: how do I clean the drives completely without any real >>chance of data being recovered? The only other option would be to leave >>the drives behind so they can be crushed. > > > Later versions of VMS have an $init/erase command that physically writes > zeroes to the disk; the best way of properly initialising is to put the > drives through a degausser but even that might not please the security > conscious. Not to mention that degaussing would destroy most non-ST506 type drives anyway. Nearly anything with some sort of onboard microcontroller will want firmware off the drive... Gordon. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 26 16:50:01 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:50:01 Subject: US Sources for old ICs In-Reply-To: <17247.42045.755704.853377@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200510252334360063.034E4237@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20051026082435.3d7fdcc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051026165001.479f4e82@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:43 AM 10/26/05 -0400, Paul wrote: >>>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: > > Joe> The small surface mount only packages are a BIG problem for > Joe> individuals that want to build a single circuit. A friend of > Joe> mine designs and builds a lot of circuits commercailly and he's > Joe> always raising hell with the IC manufacturers and trying to get > Joe> them to produce chips in DIP packages. I keep telling him that > Joe> it's hopeless. > >There's at least one company that builds SMT to DIP adapters, so you >can plug SMT packaged chips into DIP prototyping systems and the like. I keep telling him that but he's stubborn! > >Of course manufacturers don't want to use DIPs. Actually that's BS! The military and NASA both REQUIRE them. They're a lot more resistant to vibration for one thing. Besides I didn't say MANUFACTURERS, I said "individuals". MOST manufacturers are only concerned with how cheap they can make the stuff, they don't give a hoot about durability, reliability, repairability or anything else. They are electrically >inferior. For that matter, they are also obsolete -- if they made DIP >packaged chips they would certainly be very low volume products. I seriously doubt that. Joe > >I understand the preference for DIPs in amateur work, though SMT isn't >really all that hard. But I can't imagine any reason for wanting DIPs >in new commercial designs. They are bigger, slower, not RoHS >compliant, ... > > paul > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 26 17:28:22 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:28:22 Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051026172822.479f5cdc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:06 AM 10/26/05 -0700, Sellam wrote: >On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > Boardswapping has a place and is a legitimate part of the history of >> > computers going way, way back. It is how things were and are done, and >> >> I have never found 'that's the way things are done' to be a sufficient >> reason for carrying on doing them that way. > >If you can prove that your repair business model would be more successful >than the one that has evolved over time in the electronics industry then >you should write a book and become a consultant and make millions. Why >waste your breath with a bunch of geeks like us? Actually I HAVE done the analysis (in APL yet!) and there definitely IS a place for board swapping. Especially when you consider the down time of the system and the cost of extra systems when you HAVE to have a system in operation (specificly in Air Defense!) I ran a simulation for the Canadian DND (Department of National Defence) which showed that a 3 level repair concept was THE most cost effective and yielded the maximum UP time. There are a LOT more factors involved here than what Tony realizes. You have to include things like stocking ALL of the parts and manuals at the more (and multiple!) forward areas, also training all of those personel in specailized things like repairing 7 layer circuit boards, providing very advanced test equipment including in our case numerous optical test beds mounted in air ride semi trailors. All together we looked at something like 40 different factors for a couple of thousand items AND all of the interactions. (That's why we used APL. It's great for matrices!) I think one thing that Tony forgets is that VERY few people are as skilled as he is. I know the repairmen in the Canadian Army are much more skilled than the ones in the US Army but even they wouldn't attempt the kinds of things that Tony routinely does and four years is simply not enough time to teach the skills necessary to do component level repair, much less troubleshooting, on EVERYTHING. And in many cases those specific failures happen so seldom that no one is likely to maintain the knowledge and skills for every possible repair. * Field: PM and board swapping by system operator based on BIT. Depot: board and LRU level repair at special facilities. One in North America and one in Europe for high and medium failure rate items Factory level: for items with critical alignments, very difficult repairs and items with low failure rates. If you're interested, here what I worked on . I was responsible for all of the Electro-Optical Guidance System (the barrel looking thing with the windows sitting between the missiles) and a large part of the Turret Electronics. Now that you've peaked my interest I'm going to go see if I still have that analysis around here. It was quite a piece of work if I do say so myself. Joe From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Oct 26 16:40:26 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: US Sources for old ICs In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051026165001.479f4e82@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > Actually that's BS! The military and NASA both REQUIRE them. The only reason for that is the age old reason - beurocratic inertia. We saw this with tube construction, then transistor construction, and now IC construction. The truth of the matter is that mil-spec does not amount to much with these chips. Many of the big contractors have found that COTS chips are actually more reliable than the mil-spec versions, because the COTS production lines have had FAR more fine tuning than the mil-spec production lines. Henry Ford was right. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Oct 26 16:46:08 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:46:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051026172822.479f5cdc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > Actually I HAVE done the analysis (in APL yet!) and there definitely IS a > place for board swapping. Especially when you consider the down time of the > system and the cost of extra systems when you HAVE to have a system in > operation (specificly in Air Defense!) At AOL, downtime obviously did not harm too many people as a failure in a defense system, but sales took a beating. I forget the numbers, but for the router interfaces, hard down time was SO damaging to sales that in less than a minute, it would be cheaper just to buy a new interface ($18K Cisco cards like loaded VIPs). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 26 16:46:16 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:46:16 -0400 Subject: US Sources for old ICs References: <200510252334360063.034E4237@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20051026082435.3d7fdcc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20051026165001.479f4e82@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <17247.63784.513853.233708@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: Joe> At 11:43 AM 10/26/05 -0400, Paul wrote: >>>>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: >> >> Of course manufacturers don't want to use DIPs. Joe> Actually that's BS! The military and NASA both REQUIRE Joe> them. They're a lot more resistant to vibration for one thing. Joe> Besides I didn't say MANUFACTURERS, I said "individuals". MOST Joe> manufacturers are only concerned with how cheap they can make Joe> the stuff, they don't give a hoot about durability, reliability, Joe> repairability or anything else. None of that makes any sense. Almost all manufacturers care about reliability, because if they don't, they go out of business, as well they should. A possible exception is cheap junky consumer stuff. Certainly IC manufacturers care about reliability, because much of what they sell goes into applications where the finished product is required to be reliable. As for NASA and the military requiring DIPs, I would find that very surprising. A lot of COTS parts don't exist in DIP form at all, since DIPs don't go much over 40 pins. Also, microwave stuff is universally surface mount; it has to be. Joe> They are electrically >> inferior. For that matter, they are also obsolete -- if they made >> DIP packaged chips they would certainly be very low volume >> products. Joe> I seriously doubt that. Doubt away, but if you examine lead inductance and capacitance issues for high clock rate circuits, you will find that it makes a very significant difference. Complex ASICs often have 50-100 power and ground wires. Those are extra package I/Os that cost money -- they aren't there for fun, but because they are necessary to meet the performance goals of the device. Power lead inductance is the reason why. paul From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Oct 26 16:49:45 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:49:45 +0100 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist In-Reply-To: <17247.62121.324812.15785@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 26/10/05 22:18, "Paul Koning" wrote: > NO! That will destroy your drives permanently. If you do that, > you'll erase the servo data, which means that all you have left is a > paperweight. Wrong choice of words for me, I meant the way to properly erase. For a company shipping a retired system out the door there isn't really a way of convincing them that once a drive is initialised by the OS it's not possible to get the data back so it's usually easier to leave the drives behind. A From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Oct 26 16:47:24 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:47:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist In-Reply-To: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> References: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: <200510262151.RAA03189@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I've got a DEC Alpha system that I can grab from work but not until I > clean off the hard drives. > The question is: how do I clean the drives completely without any > real chance of data being recovered? Depends on what kind of adversary you're trying to defeat. If you don't care about someone opening the drive up in a cleanroom and using an atomic force microscope or its ilk on the platters, just write something meaningless (all zeros, for example) over the whole drive. If you do, buy a new drive and melt or vaporize the old one (thermite, plasma torch, whatever). > I don't really know VMS and I'm not sure what versions are available, > etc. You don't need to stick to VMS; for example, you could boot the NetBSD install floppies/CD and then shell out to, eg, dd /dev/zero onto the disk. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 26 16:59:50 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:59:50 -0400 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist References: <17247.62121.324812.15785@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17247.64598.552131.115169@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Adrian" == Adrian Graham writes: Adrian> On 26/10/05 22:18, "Paul Koning" Adrian> wrote: >> NO! That will destroy your drives permanently. If you do that, >> you'll erase the servo data, which means that all you have left is >> a paperweight. Adrian> Wrong choice of words for me, I meant the way to properly Adrian> erase. For a company shipping a retired system out the door Adrian> there isn't really a way of convincing them that once a drive Adrian> is initialised by the OS it's not possible to get the data Adrian> back so it's usually easier to leave the drives behind. I think that depends on two things: how well the people understand technology, and how much they are worried about extreme attacks by 3 letter agencies with billion-dollar budgets. Re the latter: I think those agencies themselves have a simple rule: shred and/or incinerate all disk drives. Re the former: there are lots of perfectly good disk erase tools out there. "Autoclave" (http://staff.washington.edu/jdlarios/autoclave/) was one of those, but it seems to be retired. Except when you have billion dollar attackers, those are entirely adequate. That's especially true with modern disk drives, where the margins are far lower so the older "mil spec multi pass erase" techniques are far less relevant. paul From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 17:02:17 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:02:17 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051026164050.01ef7be0@mail.earthlink.net> References: <0510262037.AA29573@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <6.2.3.4.2.20051026164050.01ef7be0@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <435FFCE9.4020200@gmail.com> Steve Thatcher wrote: > and I don't need to hear your profanity about technology that you do not > care to use. Others don't seem to have a swear to "talk" and they don't > seem to have a problem using whatever software tools are necessary to > get the job done. Great. Foist your Puritanical Western Judeo-Christian ideals on the rest of us. Peace... Sridhar From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 26 17:05:32 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:05:32 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update References: <0510262037.AA29573@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <6.2.3.4.2.20051026164050.01ef7be0@mail.earthlink.net> <435FFCE9.4020200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <17247.64940.243436.894614@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: Sridhar> Steve Thatcher wrote: >> and I don't need to hear your profanity about technology that you >> do not care to use. Others don't seem to have a swear to "talk" >> and they don't seem to have a problem using whatever software >> tools are necessary to get the job done. Sridhar> Great. Foist your Puritanical Western Judeo-Christian Sridhar> ideals on the rest of us. Not so. You don't have to fit that description to feel that profanity is unproductive in a technical discussion. paul From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 17:20:13 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:20:13 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <17247.64940.243436.894614@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <0510262037.AA29573@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <6.2.3.4.2.20051026164050.01ef7be0@mail.earthlink.net> <435FFCE9.4020200@gmail.com> <17247.64940.243436.894614@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4360011D.80509@gmail.com> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > > Sridhar> Steve Thatcher wrote: > >> and I don't need to hear your profanity about technology that you > >> do not care to use. Others don't seem to have a swear to "talk" > >> and they don't seem to have a problem using whatever software > >> tools are necessary to get the job done. > > Sridhar> Great. Foist your Puritanical Western Judeo-Christian > Sridhar> ideals on the rest of us. > > Not so. You don't have to fit that description to feel that profanity > is unproductive in a technical discussion. You do in order to even believe in the concept of "profanity". Peace... Sridhar From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Oct 26 17:24:49 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:24:49 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <4360011D.80509@gmail.com> References: <0510262037.AA29573@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <6.2.3.4.2.20051026164050.01ef7be0@mail.earthlink.net> <435FFCE9.4020200@gmail.com> <17247.64940.243436.894614@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4360011D.80509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051026182249.01efca00@mail.earthlink.net> no, you only have to be a professional... At 06:20 PM 10/26/2005, you wrote: >Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>>"Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: >> >> Sridhar> Steve Thatcher wrote: >> >> and I don't need to hear your profanity about technology that you >> >> do not care to use. Others don't seem to have a swear to "talk" >> >> and they don't seem to have a problem using whatever software >> >> tools are necessary to get the job done. >> Sridhar> Great. Foist your Puritanical Western Judeo-Christian >> Sridhar> ideals on the rest of us. >>Not so. You don't have to fit that description to feel that profanity >>is unproductive in a technical discussion. > >You do in order to even believe in the concept of "profanity". > >Peace... Sridhar From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Oct 26 17:24:44 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:24:44 +0100 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <4360011D.80509@gmail.com> References: <0510262037.AA29573@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <6.2.3.4.2.20051026164050.01ef7be0@mail.earthlink.net> <435FFCE9.4020200@gmail.com> <17247.64940.243436.894614@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4360011D.80509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4360022C.3020009@gjcp.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: >> >> >> >> Sridhar> Steve Thatcher wrote: >> >> and I don't need to hear your profanity about technology that you >> >> do not care to use. Others don't seem to have a swear to "talk" >> >> and they don't seem to have a problem using whatever software >> >> tools are necessary to get the job done. >> >> Sridhar> Great. Foist your Puritanical Western Judeo-Christian >> Sridhar> ideals on the rest of us. >> >> Not so. You don't have to fit that description to feel that profanity >> is unproductive in a technical discussion. > > > You do in order to even believe in the concept of "profanity". > > Peace... Sridhar Rude words, then. I don't wish to discuss this using *rude words*, for the simple reason that it's un-necessary and detracts from the point you are trying to make. Gordon. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Oct 26 17:26:04 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:26:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <4360011D.80509@gmail.com> References: <0510262037.AA29573@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <6.2.3.4.2.20051026164050.01ef7be0@mail.earthlink.net> <435FFCE9.4020200@gmail.com> <17247.64940.243436.894614@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4360011D.80509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510262231.SAA03592@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>> and I don't need to hear your profanity about [...] >>> Great. Foist your Puritanical Western Judeo-Christian ideals on >>> the rest of us. >> Not so. You don't have to fit that description to feel that >> profanity is unproductive in a technical discussion. > You do in order to even believe in the concept of "profanity". Nonsense. (1) "profanity" in modern English has drifted from its original meaning and now means little more than "strong/taboo language". (2) Plenty of non-"Puritanical Western Judeo-Christian" mindsets include the divide between the sacred and the profane. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Oct 26 17:33:42 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: East coast movie - wants to rent old computers Message-ID: <20051026223342.73529.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Help Jennifer (in NYC) if you can! > Jennifer Greenberg - email: > yougotjen(-at-)yahoo(-dot-)com > > I am working on a movie for which I will need > computers from the mid 1970's, and > mid to late 1980's. I am wondering if you know of > any sources on the east coast who might be > interested in renting such things. > > Warm Regards, > > Jennifer > __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Oct 26 17:35:26 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:35:26 -0500 Subject: FPGA VAX update / cool microcode evolution In-Reply-To: <435FFCE9.4020200@gmail.com> References: <0510262037.AA29573@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <6.2.3.4.2.20051026164050.01ef7be0@mail.earthlink.net> <435FFCE9.4020200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <436004AE.40402@pacbell.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Steve Thatcher wrote: > >> and I don't need to hear your profanity about technology that you do >> not care to use. Others don't seem to have a swear to "talk" and they >> don't seem to have a problem using whatever software tools are >> necessary to get the job done. > > > Great. Foist your Puritanical Western Judeo-Christian ideals on the > rest of us. Sridar, you are jumping to conclusions. I agree with Steve, and I'm an atheist. Certain people don't seem to understand that the thing about swear words is that their power derives from their infrequent use. Use them too often (once a sentence for certain posters) and they are just obnoxious filler. Getting back on topic, here is an interesting old computer tidbit. Wang started shipping their 2200 family of computers in 1972. The first generation used a 4b ALU and a lot of microcode. The next generation, circa 1976, used an 8b ALU, a more powerful microcode instruction set, and ran 8x faster overall. Then Wang put more emphasis on their VS family, and the 2200 languished. In the early 80s they reduced the CPU to a single VLSI chip, although it ran at the same speed as the logic it replaced. In the late 80s there was still pressure from customers to continue and extend the 2200 family, but Wang apparently didn't want to commit the resources to a whole new CPU design, nor to port their sprawling BASIC-2 to an existing processor. Now, getting to the interesting part: Wang solved this problem around 89 by coming out with a CPU card upgrade -- it consisted of a 16 MHz 386 and a binary translator that converted 2nd generation microcode to x86 instructions! Just swap the CPU, keep all peripherals and chassis and you get an immediate 2x speed improvement. Although there was a slight startup cost when microcode was loaded, translation could be done statically due to the simple nature of the microcode. A short time later they came out with a 33 MHz 386, doubling the speed again. If they had kept upgrading their technology, a 2 GHz CPU today would make that BASIC 250x faster than the VLSI version. In comparison, my not so agressively optimized 2200 emulator is only about 15x faster at the same 2 GHz clock rate, as it uses straight-forward cycle-by-cycle microcode interpretation. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 26 17:44:15 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:44:15 -0700 Subject: PC Ephemera Message-ID: <200510261544150312.0174C215@10.0.0.252> I've been going through some old files and discovered a few of documents that I can't decide if they belong in the the shredder or with someone who gives a darn about them. Does anyone remember the background behind the "Explorer 88 PC" by Netronics R&D circa 1983? Was it a do-it-yourself PC kit? Anyway, I've got the schematics for the thing. I've also got the guide by Purple Computing for their Purple -2 Kit on how to put 256K on your PC motherboard by cutting and changing a few jumpers and then adding a board that attaches over the memory array that holds 64K DRAMS. I'd forgotten that the original PC was limitied to 64K on the mobo. Time erodes one's memory. I've also got the manual for the Teletype 410640 printer logic card assembly. IIRC, this was for the Model 40 line printer. It includes schematics and parts layout. ...and I discovered a complete unopened OEM kit for MP/M II, complete with licensing pricelist and 8" floppies. I'd forgotten all about it. (I may hang on to this one for the time being). Funny thing is that I don't remember half the stuff in my files... Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 17:56:52 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:56:52 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <200510262231.SAA03592@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0510262037.AA29573@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <6.2.3.4.2.20051026164050.01ef7be0@mail.earthlink.net> <435FFCE9.4020200@gmail.com> <17247.64940.243436.894614@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4360011D.80509@gmail.com> <200510262231.SAA03592@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <436009B4.2050400@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >>>>>and I don't need to hear your profanity about [...] >>>> >>>>Great. Foist your Puritanical Western Judeo-Christian ideals on >>>>the rest of us. >>> >>>Not so. You don't have to fit that description to feel that >>>profanity is unproductive in a technical discussion. >> >>You do in order to even believe in the concept of "profanity". > > > Nonsense. > > (1) "profanity" in modern English has drifted from its original meaning > and now means little more than "strong/taboo language". > > (2) Plenty of non-"Puritanical Western Judeo-Christian" mindsets > include the divide between the sacred and the profane. But not very many attach it to taboos against particular single words. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 17:57:23 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:57:23 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051026182249.01efca00@mail.earthlink.net> References: <0510262037.AA29573@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <6.2.3.4.2.20051026164050.01ef7be0@mail.earthlink.net> <435FFCE9.4020200@gmail.com> <17247.64940.243436.894614@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4360011D.80509@gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20051026182249.01efca00@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <436009D3.5050000@gmail.com> Steve Thatcher wrote: > no, you only have to be a professional... That's tremendously eurocentric. Peace... Sridhar From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Oct 26 18:07:44 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:07:44 +0100 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <200510261544150312.0174C215@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 26/10/05 23:44, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > I've also got the guide by Purple Computing for their Purple -2 Kit on how > to put 256K on your PC motherboard by cutting and changing a few jumpers > and then adding a board that attaches over the memory array that holds 64K > DRAMS. I'd forgotten that the original PC was limitied to 64K on the mobo. I'd have thought this was worth saving if it's related to the 5150 XT, or at least it is to me. I'm trying and failing miserably to find an XT with a 64K motherboard, purely because I guess people upgraded them as soon as they could afford to. Cheers a From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 18:15:11 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:15:11 -0400 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43600DFF.1040700@gmail.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 26/10/05 23:44, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > >>I've also got the guide by Purple Computing for their Purple -2 Kit on how >>to put 256K on your PC motherboard by cutting and changing a few jumpers >>and then adding a board that attaches over the memory array that holds 64K >>DRAMS. I'd forgotten that the original PC was limitied to 64K on the mobo. > > > I'd have thought this was worth saving if it's related to the 5150 XT, or at > least it is to me. I'm trying and failing miserably to find an XT with a 64K > motherboard, purely because I guess people upgraded them as soon as they > could afford to. Would there be any way to reliably estmate the percentage of XT's that were upgraded with Sixpack (or similar) cards? Peace... Sridhar From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Oct 26 18:29:44 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:29:44 +0100 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <43600DFF.1040700@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 27/10/05 00:15, "Sridhar Ayengar" wrote: > Would there be any way to reliably estmate the percentage of XT's that > were upgraded with Sixpack (or similar) cards? >From my point of view, no, but I'm a Digital fan through and through and so avoided IBM's stuff back then :) A similar question for us UK types would be to ask how many Acorn BBCs were modified by schools/colleges/whatever. Given the current pile of them under my stairs I'd guess the figure was about 80%! Cheers a From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 26 18:34:39 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:34:39 -0700 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510261634390641.01A2E747@10.0.0.252> On 10/27/2005 at 12:07 AM Adrian Graham wrote: >I'd have thought this was worth saving if it's related to the 5150 XT, or >at >least it is to me. I'm trying and failing miserably to find an XT with a >64K >motherboard, purely because I guess people upgraded them as soon as they >could afford to. Mine was for the PC, not the XT; but even with 256K on the mobo, it wasn't the memory that made me ditch the thing. It was the FIVE EXPANSION SLOTS! Consider that you had one slot for CGA, one for printer, one for a serial port, one for FDC--and if you needed more memory, that was it. I had a homebrew board that hooked to an SA-1000/WD-1001 hard disk combo and I'd reached the limit--and the power supply was getting stressed to the point that you might have to power on and off several times before you got it to quit kicking out. So, the next time the Taiwanese contingent held a show, I bought a clone MOBO and nice 8-slot flip-top case and a whopping 150w power supply. Duped the PC's ROMs into the clone's EPROMs and could even run IBM BASICA. I never looked back. Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Oct 26 18:36:19 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:36:19 -0700 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <43600DFF.1040700@gmail.com> References: <43600DFF.1040700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <436012F3.6030102@msm.umr.edu> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> >> I'd have thought this was worth saving if it's related to the 5150 >> XT, or at >> least it is to me. I'm trying and failing miserably to find an XT >> with a 64K >> motherboard, purely because I guess people upgraded them as soon as they >> could afford to. > > > Would there be any way to reliably estmate the percentage of XT's that > were upgraded with Sixpack (or similar) cards? > > Peace... Sridhar > > I would be interested in seeing a list of the variations of the PC (with / without tape interface) and the XT as well as the AT. the things I'm interested in is memory config (which type chips) number of ISA slots, and the on board varations such as having or omitting the tape interface present on the original PC. (those sort of variants). I may have a motherboard in the heap somewhere with 5 slots, and 64K but I don't recall seeing an 8 slot (XT) board with only 64 k. I have seen two variants of memory types on both the XT and AT, as far as the chips. The AT of course had the silly stacked memory chips, initially. jim From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Oct 26 18:35:55 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "profanity" (topic drift from Re: FPGA VAX update) In-Reply-To: <436009B4.2050400@gmail.com> References: <0510262037.AA29573@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <6.2.3.4.2.20051026164050.01ef7be0@mail.earthlink.net> <435FFCE9.4020200@gmail.com> <17247.64940.243436.894614@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4360011D.80509@gmail.com> <200510262231.SAA03592@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <436009B4.2050400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510262345.TAA04039@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> (2) Plenty of non-"Puritanical Western Judeo-Christian" mindsets >> include the divide between the sacred and the profane. > But not very many attach it to taboos against particular single > words. Actually, the two words in question were not profanity but vulgarity, if you want to get picky about it. (That is, they were expressing profane things vulgarly rather than profaning sacred things. But note that one dictionary entry I've seen implies that one meaning of "profanity" is a subset of "vulgarity", so it's not totally clear-cut.) Still, though, your point is well taken. I haven't studied it enough to really know precisely why the words in question are taboo. But it seems very likely to me that it's because of the "body = profane = bad, spirit = sacred = good" dichotomy, and that is, AIUI, mostly restricted to (the cultures of) the Peoples of the Book. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 26 19:17:54 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:17:54 -0700 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510261717540535.01CA7F42@10.0.0.252> On 10/27/2005 at 12:29 AM Adrian Graham wrote: >>From my point of view, no, but I'm a Digital fan through and through and >so >avoided IBM's stuff back then :) I was no IBM PC fan even when it came out. Initially, I'd looked at upgrading my S-100 system with one of Bill Godbout's 8086 boards and some memory--it would have been cheaper than the PC route back then. But Jade didn't have any of the cards in stock and was a bit iffy about delivery times, so I went down to Computerland and bought a PC. Around then, Sears (from their computer store) was ostensibly selling PCs, but while they had a demo system with CGA, they didn't have any units for sale. For a time, even IBM PCs were hard to come by. Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Oct 26 19:29:05 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:29:05 -0500 Subject: VMS drive cleanup assist Message-ID: <34985e2bf58041968e16e1a4450c0cc7@valleyimplants.com> I'd look at Darik's Boot and Nuke (dban.sourceforge.net) Based on Linux which, while not classic, has good support for Alpha AXP, and DBAN has credibility. build one for AXP and use it. Sadly, being Linux based it won't run on many classic systems (e.g. VAXen, PDPs, . . .) but it's possible that someone could do an xBSD port. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Oct 26 19:35:07 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:35:07 -0500 Subject: "profanity" (topic drift from Re: FPGA VAX update) In-Reply-To: <200510262345.TAA04039@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: Can you guys please take this off-list? I have to read enough of this sort of stuff on other messaging systems I'm on, I never thought I'd have to read it here. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of der Mouse Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 6:36 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: "profanity" (topic drift from Re: FPGA VAX update) >> (2) Plenty of non-"Puritanical Western Judeo-Christian" mindsets >> include the divide between the sacred and the profane. > But not very many attach it to taboos against particular single words. Actually, the two words in question were not profanity but vulgarity, if you want to get picky about it. (That is, they were expressing profane things vulgarly rather than profaning sacred things. But note that one dictionary entry I've seen implies that one meaning of "profanity" is a subset of "vulgarity", so it's not totally clear-cut.) Still, though, your point is well taken. I haven't studied it enough to really know precisely why the words in question are taboo. But it seems very likely to me that it's because of the "body = profane = bad, spirit = sacred = good" dichotomy, and that is, AIUI, mostly restricted to (the cultures of) the Peoples of the Book. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 26 20:19:12 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:19:12 Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20051026172822.479f5cdc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051026201912.3d270638@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:46 PM 10/26/05 -0400, you wrote: >> Actually I HAVE done the analysis (in APL yet!) and there definitely IS a >> place for board swapping. Especially when you consider the down time of the >> system and the cost of extra systems when you HAVE to have a system in >> operation (specificly in Air Defense!) > >At AOL, downtime obviously did not harm too many people as a failure in a >defense system, but sales took a beating. I forget the numbers, but for >the router interfaces, hard down time was SO damaging to sales that in >less than a minute, it would be cheaper just to buy a new interface ($18K >Cisco cards like loaded VIPs). > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > You're right. The last place that I worked before returning to college was a relatively small food processing plant. We had three lines there and it cost $600 per hour per line when they were down. It only takes a few seconds to swap circuit cards so we had plenty of spare cards. After the line was up and running we took the cards back to the shop and repaired them at our leisure. I made them REAL happy when I build some test fixtures so that we could test and adjust the cards in the shop. After that we could just pop out the old card and drop in a new one and the adjustments were close enough that everything worked with no futher adjusting. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 26 20:21:29 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:21:29 Subject: East coast movie - wants to rent old computers In-Reply-To: <20051026223342.73529.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051026202129.3d270574@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:33 PM 10/26/05 -0700, you wrote: >Help Jennifer (in NYC) if you can! > >> Jennifer Greenberg - email: >> yougotjen(-at-)yahoo(-dot-)com >> >> I am working on a movie for which I will need >> computers from the mid 1970's, and >> mid to late 1980's. >I am wondering if you know of >> any sources on the east coast who might be >> interested in renting such things. Is this a trick question? :-) Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 26 20:27:07 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:27:07 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: References: <200510261544150312.0174C215@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051026202707.3d27db6c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:07 AM 10/27/05 +0100, you wrote: > >On 26/10/05 23:44, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >> I've also got the guide by Purple Computing for their Purple -2 Kit on how >> to put 256K on your PC motherboard by cutting and changing a few jumpers >> and then adding a board that attaches over the memory array that holds 64K >> DRAMS. I'd forgotten that the original PC was limitied to 64K on the mobo. > >I'd have thought this was worth saving if it's related to the 5150 XT, or at >least it is to me. I'm trying and failing miserably to find an XT with a 64K >motherboard, purely because I guess people upgraded them as soon as they >could afford to. I may be wrong but I thought IBM was already using 256k MBs before they introduced the XT. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 26 20:34:28 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:34:28 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <436012F3.6030102@msm.umr.edu> References: <43600DFF.1040700@gmail.com> <43600DFF.1040700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051026203428.3cd7a196@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:36 PM 10/26/05 -0700, you wrote: >Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> >>> >>> I'd have thought this was worth saving if it's related to the 5150 >>> XT, or at >>> least it is to me. I'm trying and failing miserably to find an XT >>> with a 64K >>> motherboard, purely because I guess people upgraded them as soon as they >>> could afford to. >> >> >> Would there be any way to reliably estmate the percentage of XT's that >> were upgraded with Sixpack (or similar) cards? >> >> Peace... Sridhar >> >> >I would be interested in seeing a list of the variations of the PC (with >/ without tape interface) and the XT >as well as the AT. the things I'm interested in is memory config (which >type chips) number of ISA slots, >and the on board varations such as having or omitting the tape interface >present on the original PC. (those >sort of variants). Get a copy of Upgrading and Repairing PCs by Mueller. It has all those details plus things like BIOS versions and dates, part numbers for all the cards, details on the various power supplies, etc. It's still in publication but I doubt the new editions still have all the details for the PC, XTs and ATs. I found a first edition in a surplus store last week and it gives loads of details about the early PCs. Check the used book stores, libraries, E-bay, etc and you should be able to find an early edition without too much trouble. Joe > >I may have a motherboard in the heap somewhere with 5 slots, and 64K but >I don't recall seeing an >8 slot (XT) board with only 64 k. I have seen two variants of memory >types on both the XT and AT, >as far as the chips. The AT of course had the silly stacked memory >chips, initially. > >jim > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 26 18:38:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:38:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9845 C with 280 option startup failure In-Reply-To: <435EA539.5090409@gmx.net> from "Tequi Lizer" at Oct 25, 5 11:35:53 pm Message-ID: > > > >> I recently acquired a HP 9845C option 280 (was looking for it for a > >> really long time). > >> > > > > I don't know all the option codes for the 9845. I assume at least this > > has a 98770 colour monitor nad the high-speed (bit-slice) language > > processor option. > > > Exactly. The 280 option was like the 290, less the database development > & the datacomm features. I haev no idea what the Option 290 is either. In fact I don't even know what I have -- I know it's a 9845B with the high-speed language processor, 2 tape drives, intenral printer, 1 256K word RAM board (and the usual 2 RO Actually, there was a supplement for the model 200 line for that manual Yes, I've seen a reference to it. But it's not on the hpmusuem.net site, and AFAIK the owner of said site doesn't have it. It's probably not that useful. It won't contain scheamtics. It won't contain other usrful info like the pinout and use of the test connector. We all know how to remove and fit the assembly, and how to separate it into the 3 boards and the backplane. > which covers the high-speed processor in chapter 5 (HP part no. > 09845-92030). Unfortunately, this document will be for sure hard to find > (or even lost forever...) > > I would love to see inside the colour monitor (that is, I'd like to pull > > one apart and really examine the boards. I am told there are some 2901's > > in there for the video processor. The 98780 mono monitor has an HP 64 pin > > ASIC for this. > > > > > Yes, the 98770A has a couple of AMD ASICS for the vector processor. > However, not 2901 like the bit slice processor, but three 2377 plus one > 2378. If you like to get a view on the boards, I can send you some hires OK, not 2901s, but not ASICs either. The 1820-2377 is an AM2903 (which is somewhat like a 2901, a bit-slice ALU + registers), the 1820-2378 is an AM2910 sequencer. Interesting... > images. Alas pictures do not repsond to continuity testers and logic analysers :-) > The machine behaves with color monitor installed exactly the same as > without monitor. So the IIRC may be a candidate. I have another 9845A > around, but I'm not sure whether a 9845C can be combined with the > monitor of a 9845A without harm, although the interface is technically > similar. I am pretty sure the video interfave board (the left-hand board that connects to the monitor) is different. It's the same for the enhanced mono and colour monitors, but the standard monitor uses a different one. I have no idea if it does any damage to use the 'wrong one'. But even if not, presumably there are differences, which may cause errors/problems (exactly what you don't need when looking for a fault!) > Well, I wonder how a service expert could get around with the "service > manual". Probably HP practiced a philosophy just like "those beasts are > expensive enough, just exchange the complete assembly". It's worse than that. You replace boards until the machine appears to work again, then put back the old ones to see if it stops working. No real diagnostics at all. And you wonder why I think that manual is a waste of trees... > I wonder whether the ROMs are the same types used widely in HP measuring > equipment. An example can be found under > http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/hp/3456a/ I think similar ROMs were used in other devices. The HP9815 (I think the -S version, the one with 4K RAM on the CPU board) uses 8K ROMs with internal address latches. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 26 19:32:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:32:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer CULTURE. In-Reply-To: <435FB389.B9ECF61F@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Oct 26, 5 09:49:13 am Message-ID: > > > Board swaping and component replacement both have their place and that I am trying (and failing) to think of any justification for replacing parts without a good reason to do so. And a lot of board-swapping is just that (you know, replace the processor, memory, video, etc boards in order until the machine works again). > place depends on your particular philosophy and goals. For myself, I > look at component replacement as a way actually learning how things work That is one reason I spend a lot of time producing my own schematics and repair notes for machines that don't otherwise have useful service information. To produce a meaningful, understandable, schematic, you have to understand what is going on. > instead of shotgunning a problem until it appears to have been solved. The emphasis here should be on 'appears'. Unless you do tests to find what is actually wrong, you can never know you've cured the fault (even replacing the whole machine won't do that if the problem is external!). Particularly for intermittant faults, this is very unsatisfactory. > Actually understanding how something works leads to progress while I > *firmly* believe that the board swapping only mentality leads on a > spiral path downwards. Board swapping is the obvious answer to the time > problem of reducing downtime ... most of the time :). I am not convinced. Probably swapping boards will get the machine doing something more quickly, but it may well fail again fairly soon afterwards (seen it all too often). Personally, I'd rather spend a little more time putting it right _now_ and then have it work properly for a sensible time thereafter. [...] Anyway, last time I checked, this was the classiccmp list. You can't board-swap a classic computer, becuase most of the time you don't have a set of known-good boards to swap in (if you did, you'd make another example of the machine from them). Swapping in possibly defective boards is a total waste of time And you don't want to risk damaging any boards you do have due to faults elsehwere in the machine. > A sad (to me anyway) commentary on people in the US are the number of > people who prefer to buy an assembled and tested unit instead of > building it themselves when given an option. Yes, but have you tried buying kits for such things now? At least over here, thanks to our ridiculous interpretation of the EMC directives, kits are almost unobtainable. And even components are getting more difficult to find. Yes, there are plenty of places on the net to get stuff, most, if not all, will take credit cards (or Paypal, or...) and send you the stuff. But the days of being able to pop into a local shop for a 1k resistor are very much over. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 26 19:20:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:20:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Oct 26, 5 07:06:20 am Message-ID: > If you can prove that your repair business model would be more successful > than the one that has evolved over time in the electronics industry then You know as well as I do that manufacturers love the board-swapping idea. It means they can employ total idiots as field-servoids. It means they can sell a service manual that contains no information and therefore doesn't give away any secrets (for all said 'secrets' could be discovered if an intellegent person looked at the real hardware). It means they have a monopoly on spare parts (if I have to swap a board, I have to get it from the manufacturer of the machine, a TTL chip could come from anywhere). This does not mean there are good engineering reasons for not doing proper diagnosis and repair. As regards what's more successful, _every_ time I've tried board-swapping, I've had more problems than I started with. When I find the fault using test gear, I put it right, and the machine stays working. Quite likely board-swapping will get the machine to do _something_ again in a shorter time than finding the fault properly, but doing the latter will get the machine doing the _right_ thing, and will make sure it keeps on doing that. > you should write a book and become a consultant and make millions. Why > waste your breath with a bunch of geeks like us? There's no point in be wasting my breath with you, since you clearly know everything. Fortunately the rest of us are not in that position, so we find it useful to exchange information. Serveral times you've made comments that suggest you want me to leave this list. AFAIK you are not the list owner, that's Jay. He's the only person who can kick me off. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 26 19:47:55 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:47:55 -0700 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist In-Reply-To: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> References: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: <200510261747550332.01E5F98E@10.0.0.252> On 10/26/2005 at 11:49 AM Erik Klein wrote: >The question is: how do I clean the drives completely without any real >chance of data being recovered? The only other option would be to leave >the drives behind so they can be crushed. If there is/was sensitive data on the drives and I were in the management decision-making position, there's no way I'd let those drives out of the door intact, no matter what anyone told me about being able to erase them. The logic is pretty obvious--what do I have to gain by letting the drives out assuming they've been cleared and what do I stand to lose by letting them go if they aren't? Maybe management will let you raid some of the drive electronics. But they'd be silly to take the chance of letting you out of the door with information that could damage the firm. I know how it feels. CDC had the policy of destroying anything that reached end-of-life. I watched two CE's take a week to completely demolish two STAR 1-Bs (I snatched a heatsink out of the dumpster after they'd finished). Cheers, Chuck From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 26 19:48:53 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:48:53 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update / cool microcode evolution References: <0510262037.AA29573@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <6.2.3.4.2.20051026164050.01ef7be0@mail.earthlink.net><435FFCE9.4020200@gmail.com> <436004AE.40402@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <014401c5da90$34a065c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > here is an interesting old computer tidbit.... Wang started shipping Doubly related question. When on earth did the word 'wang' become profanity? I'm serious. An.W-. was a massive business success (Billionaire IIRC) right before I started hearing that usage for the word (around 1981). John A. From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 26 19:50:23 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:50:23 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update References: <0510262037.AA29573@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <6.2.3.4.2.20051026164050.01ef7be0@mail.earthlink.net> <435FFCE9.4020200@gmail.com> <17247.64940.243436.894614@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4360011D.80509@gmail.com><6.2.3.4.2.20051026182249.01efca00@mail.earthlink.net> <436009D3.5050000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <014a01c5da90$6a8b7f80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Sridhar, Peace. >> no, you only have to be a professional... > That's tremendously eurocentric. > Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 26 19:50:50 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051026170711.E12625@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Adrian Graham wrote: > I'd have thought this was worth saving if it's related to the 5150 XT, or at > least it is to me. I'm trying and failing miserably to find an XT with a 64K > motherboard, purely because I guess people upgraded them as soon as they > could afford to. Do you mean 5150 PC, or 5160 XT? By "64K" MB, do you mean 16K - 64K? or 64K - 256K? The 5150 PC had FIVE slots, cassette port, available in 16K-64K (4116 8/1981) or 64K-256K (4164). The 5160 XT had EIGHT slots, no cassette port, available in 64K-256K or 640K. One of these days, I've got to find the original power supply (black with white switch), and take the extra drives, boards, ROMs, etc. out of my 16K 5150 before I sell it. Are people actually paying money for those things? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 26 19:50:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:50:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Oct 27, 5 00:07:44 am Message-ID: > I'd have thought this was worth saving if it's related to the 5150 XT, or at Waht is a '5150 XT'? The 5150 is the PC, an XT is a 5160. > least it is to me. I'm trying and failing miserably to find an XT with a 64K > motherboard, purely because I guess people upgraded them as soon as they Was there such a thing? I thought all XT motherboards used the 64K DRAM chips. The 'stnadard' version has 64K-256K on board, there's a well known mod to put 256K chips in the first 2 bnaks (giving 256K-640K on the mainboard), IBM later sold boards like that. Actually, come to think of it, I think the address decoder PROM on the XT motehrboard would support 4816 (16K bit, 5V only) DRAM chops. But AFAIK no such boards existed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 26 19:52:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:52:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <200510261634390641.01A2E747@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 26, 5 04:34:39 pm Message-ID: > Mine was for the PC, not the XT; but even with 256K on the mobo, it wasn't > the memory that made me ditch the thing. It was the FIVE EXPANSION SLOTS! And what is wrong with the 5161 expansion cabinet? That would add a total of 6 more slots to the system (there are 8 slots in the expansion cabinet, one is taken up by the receiver board, and you lose one in the main system for the driver board). -tony From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 26 20:59:18 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:59:18 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <20051026170711.E12625@shell.lmi.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051026205918.33479eb2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:50 PM 10/26/05 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Adrian Graham wrote: >> I'd have thought this was worth saving if it's related to the 5150 XT, or at >> least it is to me. I'm trying and failing miserably to find an XT with a 64K >> motherboard, purely because I guess people upgraded them as soon as they >> could afford to. > >Do you mean 5150 PC, or 5160 XT? >By "64K" MB, do you mean 16K - 64K? or 64K - 256K? > > >The 5150 PC had FIVE slots, cassette port, >available in 16K-64K (4116 8/1981) or 64K-256K (4164). > >The 5160 XT had EIGHT slots, no cassette port, >available in 64K-256K or 640K. > > >One of these days, I've got to find the original power supply (black with >white switch), and take the extra drives, boards, ROMs, etc. out of my 16K >5150 before I sell it. A white power switch? I've never seen one. And I've seen a couple of very early PCs. > Are people actually paying money for those things? I don't know if they are or not but they soon will be. Remember that it was only a few years ago that you could buy an Altair for a couple of hundred dollars! It's darned difficult to even find an IBM PC, XT or AT now (except for E-bay!). I've only seen three in the last three to four years. Joe > > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 26 21:06:18 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:06:18 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: References: <200510261634390641.01A2E747@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051026210618.3ac774de@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:52 AM 10/27/05 +0100, you wrote: >> Mine was for the PC, not the XT; but even with 256K on the mobo, it wasn't >> the memory that made me ditch the thing. It was the FIVE EXPANSION SLOTS! > >And what is wrong with the 5161 expansion cabinet? Well besides being HUGE and the fact that it didn't support all of the cards, it costs $2585! (with a hard drive) That's almost three times what I paid for my first XT clone! FWIW I've only seen one of the things. They must not have sold many of them. Joe That would add a total >of 6 more slots to the system (there are 8 slots in the expansion >cabinet, one is taken up by the receiver board, and you lose one in the >main system for the driver board). > >-tony > From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 20:09:23 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:09:23 -0400 Subject: "profanity" (topic drift from Re: FPGA VAX update) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <436028C3.7020002@gmail.com> Already taken off-list. Julian Wolfe wrote: > Can you guys please take this off-list? I have to read enough of this sort > of stuff on other messaging systems I'm on, I never thought I'd have to read > it here. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Wed Oct 26 20:10:56 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:10:56 -0700 Subject: PC Ephemera Message-ID: <001301c5da93$4efa4780$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Adrian Graham wrote >> I'd have thought this was worth saving if it's related to the 5150 XT, or >> at >> least it is to me. I'm trying and failing miserably to find an XT with a >> 64K >> motherboard, purely because I guess people upgraded them as soon as they >> could afford to. I had a original IBM PC with the 64k motherboard and small power supply. A friend bought an XT as soon as they came out and it had the 256k motherboard. I don't think they ever made a 64k XT. Later I had my BIOS upgraded to install a 20 MB hard drive. (And a power supply upgrade.) I had to take my computer to an authorized IBM dealer to get the BIOS swapped. They would not just send you a ROM. Even with an AST 6 Pack I did not have 640kB or RAM because of the 64k motherboard. (But I did have a cassette interface.) Michael Holley From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 26 20:22:48 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:22:48 -0700 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051026205918.33479eb2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051026205918.33479eb2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200510261822480924.0205EB90@10.0.0.252> On 10/26/2005 at 8:59 PM Joe R. wrote: >>The 5150 PC had FIVE slots, cassette port, >>available in 16K-64K (4116 8/1981) or 64K-256K (4164). Right, I bought the 16K version (3 rows of empty sockets) and populated it with selected Intel 2109's (half-bad 2117's--you used the number after the main part number to see which half to use). About half of the 2109's that I tried were good enough to run in the PC as 16K devices. I got all the 2109's I wanted for nothing from the Intel sales rep, so it was worth the trouble. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 20:26:20 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:26:20 -0400 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051026210618.3ac774de@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200510261634390641.01A2E747@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20051026210618.3ac774de@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43602CBC.4000906@gmail.com> Joe R. wrote: > At 01:52 AM 10/27/05 +0100, you wrote: > >>>Mine was for the PC, not the XT; but even with 256K on the mobo, it wasn't >>>the memory that made me ditch the thing. It was the FIVE EXPANSION SLOTS! >> >>And what is wrong with the 5161 expansion cabinet? > > > Well besides being HUGE and the fact that it didn't support all of the > cards, it costs $2585! (with a hard drive) That's almost three times what > I paid for my first XT clone! FWIW I've only seen one of the things. They > must not have sold many of them. At that price, it's no wonder! I've seen two or three at various IBM manufacturing sites. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 20:27:38 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:27:38 -0400 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <001301c5da93$4efa4780$0300a8c0@downstairs2> References: <001301c5da93$4efa4780$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <43602D0A.7080509@gmail.com> Michael Holley wrote: > Adrian Graham wrote > >>> I'd have thought this was worth saving if it's related to the 5150 >>> XT, or at >>> least it is to me. I'm trying and failing miserably to find an XT >>> with a 64K >>> motherboard, purely because I guess people upgraded them as soon as they >>> could afford to. > > > I had a original IBM PC with the 64k motherboard and small power supply. > A friend bought an XT as soon as they came out and it had the 256k > motherboard. I don't think they ever made a 64k XT. > > Later I had my BIOS upgraded to install a 20 MB hard drive. (And a power > supply upgrade.) I had to take my computer to an authorized IBM dealer > to get the BIOS swapped. They would not just send you a ROM. Even with > an AST 6 Pack I did not have 640kB or RAM because of the 64k > motherboard. (But I did have a cassette interface.) Did anyone ever see fit to make a cassette interface compatible with that of the 5150 that was on a card? Peace... Sridhar From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Oct 26 20:35:04 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:35:04 -0500 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <43602D0A.7080509@gmail.com> Message-ID: Uh, did anyone even make any software that used it, or came on cassette? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 8:28 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PC Ephemera Michael Holley wrote: > Adrian Graham wrote > >>> I'd have thought this was worth saving if it's related to the 5150 >>> XT, or at least it is to me. I'm trying and failing miserably to >>> find an XT with a 64K motherboard, purely because I guess people >>> upgraded them as soon as they could afford to. > > > I had a original IBM PC with the 64k motherboard and small power supply. > A friend bought an XT as soon as they came out and it had the 256k > motherboard. I don't think they ever made a 64k XT. > > Later I had my BIOS upgraded to install a 20 MB hard drive. (And a > power supply upgrade.) I had to take my computer to an authorized IBM > dealer to get the BIOS swapped. They would not just send you a ROM. > Even with an AST 6 Pack I did not have 640kB or RAM because of the 64k > motherboard. (But I did have a cassette interface.) Did anyone ever see fit to make a cassette interface compatible with that of the 5150 that was on a card? Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 26 20:42:07 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:42:07 -0700 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051026210618.3ac774de@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200510261634390641.01A2E747@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20051026210618.3ac774de@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200510261842070471.02179918@10.0.0.252> On 10/26/2005 at 9:06 PM Joe R. wrote: > Well besides being HUGE and the fact that it didn't support all of the >cards, it costs $2585! (with a hard drive) That's almost three times what >I paid for my first XT clone! FWIW I've only seen one of the things. They >must not have sold many of them. I used one for a time. 62 conductor thick round cable connected the two. I recently scrapped the PC-side board of one--lots of LS374's IIRC. I recall that IBM swore that the added delay was negligible, but I kept running into the of "You're not running our card in the expansion unit, are you? " problem. The cable wasn't long enough that you could do much else than stack the two units on a normal sized desktop. And then, the resulting pile was too high to set a monitor on. Two PSU fans didn't make for a quiet workplace either. I remember buying a Taiwanese mobo, case and a Sony monitor to replace the PC 2-box setup at one of the De Anza college swap meets. The monitor cost more than the PC. I think I tried using the expansion unit with the 8 Mhz clone and had no luck at all. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 26 20:45:22 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:45:22 -0700 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510261845220263.021A91FE@10.0.0.252> On 10/26/2005 at 8:35 PM Julian Wolfe wrote: >Uh, did anyone even make any software that used it, or came on cassette? Not AFAIK. It was very difficult to buy the "bare" PC retail, what with demand being as strong as it was. Most units were sold with at least one 160K floppy. >Did anyone ever see fit to make a cassette interface compatible with that >of the 5150 that was on a card? I can recall trying the interface out and saying "yes, it works", but the most useful aspect of it was the motor control relay. Cheers, Chuck From rcini at optonline.net Wed Oct 26 20:50:49 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:50:49 -0400 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <200510261842070471.02179918@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <000001c5da98$db861990$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> I actually have one of these. My wife's uncle worked at IBM and bought the PC and the expansion unit "way back when". It was a PC case with a backplane and the interface card, connected by a 3' shielded cable which IMHO was way too stiff for normal use. This unit has a 20mb hard drive in it and the last time I used it (3-4 years ago) it worked fine. If $2850 was the original price, that's a rip off. It's an empty PC case, a backplane, power supply and an ISA card. $400 in parts at the most. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 9:42 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: PC Ephemera On 10/26/2005 at 9:06 PM Joe R. wrote: > Well besides being HUGE and the fact that it didn't support all of >the cards, it costs $2585! (with a hard drive) That's almost three times what >I paid for my first XT clone! FWIW I've only seen one of the things. They >must not have sold many of them. I used one for a time. 62 conductor thick round cable connected the two. I recently scrapped the PC-side board of one--lots of LS374's IIRC. I recall that IBM swore that the added delay was negligible, but I kept running into the of "You're not running our card in the expansion unit, are you? " problem. The cable wasn't long enough that you could do much else than stack the two units on a normal sized desktop. And then, the resulting pile was too high to set a monitor on. Two PSU fans didn't make for a quiet workplace either. I remember buying a Taiwanese mobo, case and a Sony monitor to replace the PC 2-box setup at one of the De Anza college swap meets. The monitor cost more than the PC. I think I tried using the expansion unit with the 8 Mhz clone and had no luck at all. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 26 20:57:21 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051026184838.F13079@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Julian Wolfe wrote: > Uh, did anyone even make any software that used it, or came on cassette? The "Diagnostics" came on cassette. There were a couple of very short lived attempts to try to market cassette software. Somebody made a software package to transfer files from 5150 to 5150 through the cassette port. Within weeks, the XT came out (no cassette port) and that ended that. BTW, IBM apparently NEVER sold a cable for it! But the pinout matched the TRS-80 cassette cable. > Did anyone ever see fit to make a cassette interface compatible with that of > the 5150 that was on a card? Yes, but not for long. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Oct 26 21:08:35 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:08:35 -0500 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <436012F3.6030102@msm.umr.edu> References: <43600DFF.1040700@gmail.com> <436012F3.6030102@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <436036A3.30601@oldskool.org> jim stephens wrote: > / without tape interface) and the XT This reminds me: I have a music program that claimed to send multi-voice sound through either the PC speaker or the cassette interface. While I know how it did this feat through the PC speaker (tied the speaker to a timer port and pulsed), I have no idea how the cassette interface stuff worked. Other than BIOS calls, is there any documentation out there (port addresses, etc.) on the cassette interface? I have a 5150 right here I'd love to dork around with. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 26 21:12:18 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <200510261845220263.021A91FE@10.0.0.252> References: <200510261845220263.021A91FE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051026190122.G13079@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Not AFAIK. It was very difficult to buy the "bare" PC retail, what with > demand being as strong as it was. Most units were sold with at least one > 160K floppy. prob'ly mostly because they were charging about $500 for a Tandon TM100-1! (and a few hundred $ for each row of 16K RAMs) In fall 1981, I was able to buy a bare 5150, plus FDC and CGA. I had plenty of RAM and floppies in stock for TRS-80s. I wasn't able to get another bare one until summer 1982. By 1983, the college where I teach was buying that configuration a dozen at a time. > I can recall trying the interface out and saying "yes, it works", but the > most useful aspect of it was the motor control relay. Yep! I used it just long enough to confirm that it would not be a good way to distribute software. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Oct 26 21:12:40 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:12:40 -0500 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <20051026170711.E12625@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051026170711.E12625@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43603798.5010403@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > One of these days, I've got to find the original power supply (black with > white switch), and take the extra drives, boards, ROMs, etc. out of my 16K > 5150 before I sell it. Are people actually paying money for those things? Yes. More if you leave them in :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 26 21:15:03 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:15:03 -0400 Subject: PC Ephemera Message-ID: <0IOZ00BOXY7FULQ0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: PC Ephemera > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:50:49 -0400 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >I actually have one of these. My wife's uncle worked at IBM and bought the >PC and the expansion unit "way back when". It was a PC case with a backplane >and the interface card, connected by a 3' shielded cable which IMHO was way >too stiff for normal use. This unit has a 20mb hard drive in it and the last >time I used it (3-4 years ago) it worked fine. > >If $2850 was the original price, that's a rip off. It's an empty PC case, a >backplane, power supply and an ISA card. $400 in parts at the most. Well in 1983 a SA400L was still a 199$ item, The "kit" from intel (8284A, 8088, 8255, 8253 and 8259) was 12$/Q10,000. DRAMS 64K were still up the price curve 8$/10,000. Large Eproms 8Kx8 2764 or the big 27128 were not cheap either. The raw 765A was around 5$/Q1000. The board was covered with TTL and a few PALs. Monitors were over 100$ for monochrome and color was around 400$. Yes, they were stinking expensive. Then again at the same time even a NS* machine loaded (48k two drives, no hard disk) was around 1600$. Allison From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Oct 26 21:18:44 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:18:44 -0500 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <200510261845220263.021A91FE@10.0.0.252> References: <200510261845220263.021A91FE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43603904.6000005@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I can recall trying the interface out and saying "yes, it works", but the > most useful aspect of it was the motor control relay. Where can I find programming information on the cassette interface? low-level info? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 26 21:22:30 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:22:30 -0400 Subject: PC Ephemera Message-ID: <0IOZ009MQYJUQHW1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: PC Ephemera > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:12:18 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Not AFAIK. It was very difficult to buy the "bare" PC retail, what with >> demand being as strong as it was. Most units were sold with at least one >> 160K floppy. > >prob'ly mostly because they were charging about $500 for a Tandon TM100-1! >(and a few hundred $ for each row of 16K RAMs) > >In fall 1981, I was able to buy a bare 5150, plus FDC and CGA. >I had plenty of RAM and floppies in stock for TRS-80s. > >I wasn't able to get another bare one until summer 1982. > >By 1983, the college where I teach was buying that configuration a dozen >at a time. > >> I can recall trying the interface out and saying "yes, it works", but the >> most useful aspect of it was the motor control relay. > >Yep! >I used it just long enough to confirm that it would not be a good way to >distribute software. Harrumph! I'd given up in "audio cassette interface" back in 1976 as mostly useless. I was rolling on the floor laughing when I got to see the "PC" and it has the bit bash trash cassette interface. That was a definate "you gotta be kidding right?" moment. Why laugh? My desktop had a multibus 8086 system running at 8mhz with a full megabyte (no rom holes) and four 8" DSDD (NEC!) drives in the spring of 1982. Allison From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 26 21:25:58 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:25:58 -0500 Subject: Homebrew newsgroups / forums? References: Message-ID: <02ab01c5da9d$c49de550$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Gord wrote... > I'm building a Z80 based computer as a stepper motor controller, and it > would be nice if there was a homebrew newsgroup to ask questions on since > I don't think this is the group to do so - any recommendations? Um... I would certainly think developing a new system around a classic processor (Z-80) is certainly ok on this group :) Jay From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 26 21:46:30 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <43603798.5010403@oldskool.org> References: <20051026170711.E12625@shell.lmi.net> <43603798.5010403@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051026192145.E13079@shell.lmi.net> > > One of these days, I've got to find the original power supply (black with > > white switch), and take the extra drives, boards, ROMs, etc. out of my 16K > > 5150 before I sell it. Are people actually paying money for those things? > On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Yes. More if you leave them in :-) Really?? I assumed that it would be worth more with IBM parts in it. It's worth MORE with 2 SA455s (360K), an SA465 (5.25" 720K) and an SA350 (3.5" 720K) instead of IBM faceplate TM100s? I figured that I should put it back to IBM FDC, IBM RAM, IBM serial, IBM parallel, IBM CGA, IBM PS, instead of: "Sunshine" EPROM programmer (replaced Apparat programmer), JRAM (I don't remember what I did with my Boulder Creek ECC RAM board), interface card for Atari Portfolio memory card drive (replaced P.O.S.T.), Plantronics CGA, most recent FDC in it was a Maynard, (at various times, it has had IBM, Vista, Flagstaff (IBM modified for 8"), JRAM-FDC, Maynard) I don't remember what the MBI add-on ROM was for. I used it for 20+ years as a secondary machine for miscellaneous stuff. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 26 21:50:04 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:50:04 -0700 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <43603904.6000005@oldskool.org> References: <200510261845220263.021A91FE@10.0.0.252> <43603904.6000005@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200510261950040797.0255CFA1@10.0.0.252> On 10/26/2005 at 9:18 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I can recall trying the interface out and saying "yes, it works", but the >> most useful aspect of it was the motor control relay. > >Where can I find programming information on the cassette interface? >low-level >info? The easiest way to see how it all worked is to go to the PC BIOS listing (it's also the easiest way to use it). Basically, the calls boil down to this: INT 15H, AH=0, Turn casette motor on AH=1, Turn motor off AH=2, Read 1 or more 256 byte blocks into (ES:BX) CX has BYTE count and so must be a multiple of 256 on exit, (DX) has count actually written AH=3, Write 1 or more 256 byte blocks from (ES:BX) CX = byte count (must be a multiple of 256) for AH=2 or 3, on exit, CY=0 if no error. Otherwise, CY=1 and AH=1 if CRC error AH=2 if lost data AH=3 if no data detected There's a 2x2 Berg header on the mobo to set signal levels. Set to M, the threshold is 75 mv (microphone); set to A, the threshold is 0.68 volts (nominally a "line" level). The 5 pin DIN connector works as follows: Pin 1 = motor control relay return Pin 2 = GND, Pin 3 = motor control relay, pin 4 = data in, pin 5 = data out. The BIOS writes a record formatted thus (i.e motor on to motor off): 256 bytes of ones (leader) 2 bytes of SYN (0x16) 256 bytes of data 2 bytes of CRC 256 bytes of data 2 bytes of CRC .... Hope this helps, Chuck From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Oct 26 21:52:53 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:52:53 -0500 Subject: BA11-Sx support brackets needed Message-ID: Hey everyone, I'm in need of one or more sets of support brackets for a BA11-S box cover...you know, the two black ears that go off the rear of the cover and mount to the back of the chassis. Let me know if you have 'em to part with... Julian From gilcarrick at comcast.net Wed Oct 26 21:55:02 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:55:02 -0500 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051026202707.3d27db6c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200510270305.j9R35GoA040908@keith.ezwind.net> ... > I may be wrong but I thought IBM was already using 256k > MBs before they introduced the XT. > > Joe Definitely true. I have several of them, but only 1 or 2 of the 64K variety. Gil From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 26 21:56:39 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:56:39 -0700 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <43603904.6000005@oldskool.org> References: <200510261845220263.021A91FE@10.0.0.252> <43603904.6000005@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200510261956390851.025BD6BF@10.0.0.252> On 10/26/2005 at 9:18 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Where can I find programming information on the cassette interface? >low-level >info? A bit more--the 8253 timer 2 is set to operate in mode 3 (square wave) and used to generate either 1 ms (a "1" bit) or 0.5 ms (a "0" bit) Data from the cassette is read at I/O address 0x62 bit 4. address 0x61 bit 3 controls the motor. Cassette I/O routines start at F000:F859 That should give you the whole picture. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 26 21:58:17 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <0IOZ009MQYJUQHW1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IOZ009MQYJUQHW1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051026195322.J13079@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > Harrumph! I'd given up in "audio cassette interface" back in 1976 as > mostly useless. I was rolling on the floor laughing when I got to see > the "PC" and it has the bit bash trash cassette interface. That was a > definate "you gotta be kidding right?" moment. not quite as funny as having only 5 slots From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 26 18:23:39 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:23:39 +0000 Subject: chipset pinout wanted for 82C206. Message-ID: <20051027032238.KDGY25800.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Googled and can't find a datasheet. Seems the payware website had cleaned out the websites where you can access datasheets before. What I needed: typical schematic or description of CMOS battery back up 3.6V rechargeable with 4069 IC and 82C206 (SiS, UMC, OPTi and C & T uses this 82C206) specifically chipset's pin number for battery back up to retain data and run clock. I'm trying to troubleshoot typical motherboard that is not holding CMOS data even I do have 3.6V battery power (already checked). Cheers, Wizard From vp at cs.drexel.edu Wed Oct 26 22:24:57 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:24:57 -0400 Subject: Interex membership list for sale Message-ID: <20051027032457.2A29D200D019@mail.cs.drexel.edu> A California bankruptcy court will sell Interex's membership database to the highest bidder to help satisfy creditor demands of the bankrupt user group, according to recently filed court papers. The Hewlett-Packard Co. user group claimed about 100,000 members before filing in August for bankruptcy. http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/legalissues/story/0,10801,105386,00.html?source=NLT_PM&nid=105386 **vp From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 26 22:40:27 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:40:27 -0500 Subject: Interex membership list for sale References: <20051027032457.2A29D200D019@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <03de01c5daa8$2bef2160$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written.... > A California bankruptcy court will sell Interex's membership database to > the > highest bidder to help satisfy creditor demands of the bankrupt user > group, > according to recently filed court papers. The Hewlett-Packard Co. user > group claimed about 100,000 members before filing in August for > bankruptcy. > > http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/legalissues/story/0,10801,105386,00.html?source=NLT_PM&nid=105386 Yes, but the CSL/1000 and CSL/RTE library of contributed programs is squarely in the public domain. I have a copy of it on the classiccmp server, but it's not open to the public yet until I clean off the packaging/delivery mechanism (which does belong to interex). Jay West From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Oct 26 23:01:52 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:01:52 -0400 Subject: Interex membership list for sale In-Reply-To: <20051027032457.2A29D200D019@mail.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20051027032457.2A29D200D019@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <43605130.1070709@mdrconsult.com> Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > A California bankruptcy court will sell Interex's membership database to the > highest bidder to help satisfy creditor demands of the bankrupt user group, > according to recently filed court papers. The Hewlett-Packard Co. user > group claimed about 100,000 members before filing in August for bankruptcy. > > http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/legalissues/story/0,10801,105386,00.html?source=NLT_PM&nid=105386 Lovely. Most of the world is trying to outlaw SPAM. The State of California is going into the business. Doc From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 26 23:13:42 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:13:42 -0500 Subject: Interex membership list for sale References: <20051027032457.2A29D200D019@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <43605130.1070709@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <041401c5daac$d1860ae0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Actually, I've seen and been involved in a number of professional users groups not only as a member but as an officer. I'm quite shocked at the thought that a USER group could wind up 4 million in debt? Geeze. I'm glad I didn't have to pay THOSE kinda dues ;) Jay West From gilcarrick at comcast.net Wed Oct 26 23:19:07 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:19:07 -0500 Subject: Interex membership list for sale In-Reply-To: <43605130.1070709@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200510270429.j9R4TQb7042123@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Most of the world is trying to outlaw SPAM. The State of > California is going into the business. > > > Doc It could have been worse. They could have sold it on a non-exclusive basis to everybody who wanted it. Gil From gilcarrick at comcast.net Wed Oct 26 23:29:07 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:29:07 -0500 Subject: Interex membership list for sale In-Reply-To: <041401c5daac$d1860ae0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200510270439.j9R4dVW9042319@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Actually, I've seen and been involved in a number of > professional users groups not only as a member but as an > officer. I'm quite shocked at the thought that a USER group > could wind up 4 million in debt? Geeze. I'm glad I didn't > have to pay THOSE kinda dues ;) > > Jay West > Well, it was an _HP_ mailing list. ;) Gil From gtulloch at shaw.ca Wed Oct 26 23:36:51 2005 From: gtulloch at shaw.ca (gtulloch at shaw.ca) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:36:51 -0500 Subject: Z80 Telescope Controller (was Homebrew newsgroups / forums?) In-Reply-To: <02ab01c5da9d$c49de550$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: Well, ok, in that case ... I'm building a Z80 based microcontroller as a telescope controller, to run a few stepper motors, calculate and correct for periodic errors as well as XYZ errors in the mount. The driver circuit is done (http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/cot/steppercircuit.html), and currently runs off a DOS app which uses the parallel port to pulse the motor windings. However, I prefer not to use a dedicated DOS PC so I'd like to put a Z80 in front of the driver with an RC circuit connected to the NMI so I know how long the duration between interrupts is and can thus calc the steps required to track. For historic reasons the code will be written in FORTH - a PC connected via serial will do all the heavy lifting as far as telling the Z80 where to point and how. Comments on the veracity of this architecture welcome! I have a few questions I'm hoping someone can answer for me, starting with the following: I have a Z80A and a 4 mhz TTL clock oscillator - I'm wondering if it would be ok to connect the clock directly to the CPU or is it wise to connect it via a parallel or serial resonant oscillator circuit like those described here: http://www.z80.info/uexosc.htm Why be so elaborate? The data sheets for the oscillator doesn't say "Make sure you connect via a parallel or serial resonent oscillator circuit!" Thanks for any light you can shed on this, Google hasn't been helpful. I have references that do it both ways without explanation so I'm confused! Regards, Gord cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote on 26/10/2005 09:25:58 PM: > Gord wrote... > > I'm building a Z80 based computer as a stepper motor controller, and it > > would be nice if there was a homebrew newsgroup to ask questions on since > > I don't think this is the group to do so - any recommendations? > > Um... I would certainly think developing a new system around a classic > processor (Z-80) is certainly ok on this group :) > > Jay > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 26 23:40:43 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:40:43 +0100 Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43605A4B.7030406@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > As regards what's more successful, _every_ time I've tried > board-swapping, I've had more problems than I started with. When I find > the fault using test gear, I put it right, and the machine stays working. > Quite likely board-swapping will get the machine to do _something_ again > in a shorter time than finding the fault properly, but doing the latter > will get the machine doing the _right_ thing, and will make sure it keeps > on doing that. You know, that always surprises me - I'd expect board swapping to rarely cause problems for reasonably modular systems (I can believe it with such as DEC hardware though, where you so much as cough near it and something breaks ;) Depends on the nature of the fault I suppose. For field faults on current hardware I would expect board swapping to hardly ever make things worse (my annoyance there would be if failed boards were just tossed rather than being fixed back at base). For restoring classic machines that may have been kept in bad conditions or not powered up in years, it's likely a different story! cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 26 23:44:54 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:44:54 +0100 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43605B46.6060904@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > A similar question for us UK types would be to ask how many Acorn > BBCs were modified by schools/colleges/whatever. Given the current > pile of them under my stairs I'd guess the figure was about 80%! *modified* - or just having stuff done to them that was as Acorn intended? They were supposed to be a highly customisable machine from the outset - it's rare I see one that's had anything really odd done to it. Most of the ones I've seen from schools were pretty stock, just with various frills (commercial RAM / ROM expansion boards, disk upgrades, Econet boards fitted etc.) Of course how often have I seen one that's never had the lid taken off since it left the factory in order to have something done to it (even if it's just to add another ROM)? Probably never. :) cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 26 23:49:07 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II on Lost? Message-ID: <200510270449.VAA10872@floodgap.com> I don't remember if this was already reported, but the underground hatch on tonight's repeat of Lost is apparently controlled by an Apple II (with an "execute" key). -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You are not ready! --------------------------------------------------------- From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Thu Oct 27 00:00:21 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:00:21 +0200 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <436009D3.5050000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <935C1455-46A6-11DA-9568-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Am donderdag, 27.10.05, um 00:57 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Sridhar Ayengar: > Steve Thatcher wrote: >> no, you only have to be a professional... > > That's tremendously eurocentric. > Why ? Jos ( European, eager to learn) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 27 00:00:39 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:00:39 -0700 Subject: Z80 Telescope Controller (was Homebrew newsgroups / forums?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510262200390193.02CD59F4@10.0.0.252> On 10/26/2005 at 11:36 PM gtulloch at shaw.ca wrote: A 4 MHz oscillator connected to the clock pin of Z80 is fine, the only specific called out is a 330 ohm pullup, so make sure your oscillator has enough drive current. You may want to buffer the clock anyway if you have other peripherals to drive. (Personal opinion follows) \ For such a simple job, I'd be tempted to use one of the single-chip family MPUs (Z8, 8051, etc). Cheers, Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Oct 27 00:40:28 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:40:28 -0500 Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: <43605A4B.7030406@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43605A4B.7030406@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051027004028.640005d0.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:40:43 +0100 Jules Richardson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > As regards what's more successful, _every_ time I've tried > > board-swapping, I've had more problems than I started with. When I find > > the fault using test gear, I put it right, and the machine stays working. > > Quite likely board-swapping will get the machine to do _something_ again > > in a shorter time than finding the fault properly, but doing the latter > > will get the machine doing the _right_ thing, and will make sure it keeps > > on doing that. > > You know, that always surprises me - I'd expect board swapping to rarely > cause problems for reasonably modular systems (I can believe it with > such as DEC hardware though, where you so much as cough near it and > something breaks ;) > > Depends on the nature of the fault I suppose. For field faults on > current hardware I would expect board swapping to hardly ever make > things worse (my annoyance there would be if failed boards were just > tossed rather than being fixed back at base). For restoring classic > machines that may have been kept in bad conditions or not powered up in > years, it's likely a different story! > A service environment where all the service techs were 'artisans' who constantly tweaked and improved each board out in the field would be a servicing nightmare. There wouldn't be any consistent service, and every site that had been visited would have totally uncontrolled hardware revisions. A service-bureau approach, where the techs in the field are trained boardswappers who ship boards back for rework by qualified staff at a repair depot makes the most sense, from a business, and from a technical point of view. It just plain _doesn't_make_sense_ for highly qualified experts to be out driving around in vans scraping dirt and reseating boards. There is a hierarchy of expertise within any organization, and component level troubleshooters belong at the repair depot. -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Oct 27 00:55:38 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:55:38 -0500 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510261952.AA29388@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0510261952.AA29388@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20051027005538.63a1d95e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 26 Oct 05 19:52:00 GMT msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > What, because they used a *graphical* installer? > > No, because they encrypted the ZIPs to make it impossible to bypass said > installer. > > MS How well do they encrypt the ZIPs? There are some pretty powerful ZIPcracking tools out there. -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 27 01:03:05 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:03:05 -0700 Subject: chipset pinout wanted for 82C206. In-Reply-To: <20051027032238.KDGY25800.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20051027032238.KDGY25800.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <200510262303050619.0306843D@10.0.0.252> On 10/26/2005 at 11:23 PM jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: >Googled and can't find a datasheet. Seems the payware website had >cleaned out the websites where you can access datasheets before. I find it here: http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/87406/ETC/82C206.html Sucker's a big PDF--over 4 MB. Cheers, Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Oct 27 01:07:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:07:58 -0500 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: References: <200510261544150312.0174C215@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051027010758.5f9a0117.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:07:44 +0100 Adrian Graham wrote: > > On 26/10/05 23:44, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > > I've also got the guide by Purple Computing for their Purple -2 Kit on how > > to put 256K on your PC motherboard by cutting and changing a few jumpers > > and then adding a board that attaches over the memory array that holds 64K > > DRAMS. I'd forgotten that the original PC was limitied to 64K on the mobo. > > I'd have thought this was worth saving if it's related to the 5150 XT, or at > least it is to me. I'm trying and failing miserably to find an XT with a 64K > motherboard, purely because I guess people upgraded them as soon as they > could afford to. > It wouldn't be an XT, it would be a 'PC' and not many were made with the 64K motherboard. That is called a 'PC-1' to differentiate it from a 'PC-2' which had the 256K motherboard. And all the PC (pre-XT) machines had the wider-slot-spacing of the original PC, so it's not likely anybody 'upgraded' the motherboard in an original case to an XT or XT-clone motherboard. (I was one of the exceptions, I had to chop a non-standard-slot-spacing case for my first 'PC' machine which was an XT clone motherboard in a Leading Edge Model D case, with a 63.5 watt power supply out of a PC that I had to physically remove from the original IBM enclosure and just bolt the circuit board in the 'Model D' case. But that was back when a working Model D was too expensive for me, as was a real XT Clone Case, etc. etc. So I had a cheapskate franken-computer for a long while. Boy that was an ugly and awkward hack looking back now.) -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Wed Oct 26 14:47:58 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:47:58 -0400 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <1130345512.12035.7.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <200510261957.j9QJvqWJ033259@keith.ezwind.net> For the record I have Zenith Z100 #2 stored away. I know for a fact #1 was scrapped for parts, and I waited several years before someone in the lab fulfilled an old lunch room promise and saw to it that it found its way to me. You can not believe the shock when one night someone showed up at my cave and said they had a computer for my collection. It was the first contribution to my collection that I or my father did not purchase new for big bucks :) The first time I saw #2 was when I tested a Corvis interface I had designed and built as a contractor of a Zenith Distributor. I had to give it back when testing was finished. I made the request at the time, that when they junked that old motherboard, not to throw it away, I wanted it. The Corvis project was big point in my life as it was the first PCB I ever designed and eched. I made the bios mods to implement the Corvis shared file system over the world worst interface. The test system I was given to use, had been heavily modified over time. It started it's life out as a test board, and has has a zillion wire mods on the back and front of the first generation mother board. In it's second life, I added a 5 1/4 hard disk and an 8087. I mostly ran Autocad on it. It will most likely continue to rot in storage until I run out of money and I am forced to ebay it , to pay my internet bill :) I can only hope that by then Denise has had his fill of IBM stuff, and takes a likings to the early days of micro development. Are there any other Z-100 collectors out there ? Bob Bradlee On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:51:52 +0200, Tore S Bekkedal wrote: >On Fri, 2005-10-21 at 06:51 -0600, Gary Fisher wrote: >> Take a look at item #8707485844 >> It went for USD $7,877.11 for a supposedly serial number 3 unit >Heh, so now the first three Altairs are accounted for, then? #1 lost in >the mail, #2 in the basement of Robert Cringely (sp?), and now #3 :) >-toresbe From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Wed Oct 26 15:22:28 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:22:28 -0400 Subject: Flip Chips was Re: US Sources for old ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200510262032.j9QKWMUd033895@keith.ezwind.net> On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:50:45 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: >Brent wrote: >> Across the history of ICs, DIP packaging begins to look like a >> 25-to-30-year sidebar. >I like the way "flip chip" (not just the term, but the concept) is coming >back into vogue, forty years after DEC registered it as a trademark. >Tim. From: http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=72200706 U.S. Class: 026 (International Class 009) ELECTRONIC CIRCUIT MODULES OF THE PLUGABLE TYPE, CONTAINING ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS MOUNTED ON CIRCUIT BOARDS AND CONNECTED TO CONDUCTORS FORMED THEREON, AT LEAST ALL BUT ONE OF THE CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE COMPONENTS AND CONDUCTORS BEING ON SURFACES OTHER THAN SURFACES OF SAID COMPONENTS CONTACTING THE BOARDS First Use Date: 1964-08-24 Abandoned: 1987-03-06 Is this an early description of what we know today as surface mount ? or an early description of the Controlled Collapse Chip Connection, or C4 (C4) process used by Monolithic Systems Technology MST, introduced in 1968 formally by IBM ? Some pictures of the inside of a MST chip can be found here. http://www.ibm-collectables.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album86 Sure looks like a modern flip-chip just way bigger in those days. Good ideas can manifests themselves in many ways and applications. Bob Bradlee From bottlcaps at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 11:39:53 2005 From: bottlcaps at gmail.com (tomP) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:39:53 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: PDP-11 Collection for Sale] Message-ID: <435FB159.90805@gmail.com> Forwarded from vmsnet.pdp-11 with permission by poster -------- Original Message -------- Subject: PDP-11 Collection for Sale Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:02:57 -0400 From: Will Kranz Organization: Info-PDP11<==>vmsnet.pdp-11 Gateway Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 Gentlemen: My dad passed away over the weekend. He has be acquiring 11/23 systems and componets for something like 25 years. Its time to clean out the basement. I don't want to give things away, but do want some of this to go to good homes where I know it will get the love and care that it deserves. I thought I'd give you guys the opportunity before posting anything on Ebay. I'm starting a web page where I will attempt to maintain a list of equipment: http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/forsale.htm The stuff is located in Darien, CT just off I-95. You'd have come pickup or arrange shipping as I do not have the energy for it. Please make me an offer I can't refuse. Use the email address above, or the contact information on the web page. Be well, Will -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: 10/24/2005 ---------- To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to info-pdp11-request at village.org, with the first line of the message body being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes). From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Wed Oct 26 22:18:47 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:18:47 -0400 Subject: East coast movie - wants to rent old computers In-Reply-To: <20051026223342.73529.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051026223342.73529.qmail@web34109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.4.2.20051026231348.0310f258@boff-net.dhs.org> Would a couple 386's do? Grin. I remember that the Pentium came out in limited numbers around '90-'91 (my mind is going, Dave... daisy...), clearing the way for anything prior to, would make up to 486's viable in this lady's search. Unfortunately, the PS/2's I have do have 386 processors, but were made after 1991. =/ I could always pull my generic clones out for a few bucks. There are a few guys on this list that I directly know of (that are in my area or closer to NYC) that have many more prime targets to rent than I. -John Boffemmyer IV At 06:33 PM 10/26/2005, you wrote: >Help Jennifer (in NYC) if you can! > > > Jennifer Greenberg - email: > > yougotjen(-at-)yahoo(-dot-)com > > > > I am working on a movie for which I will need > > computers from the mid 1970's, and > > mid to late 1980's. I am wondering if you know of > > any sources on the east coast who might be > > interested in renting such things. > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > Jennifer > > > > > > >__________________________________ >Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. >http://farechase.yahoo.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/149 - Release Date: 10/25/2005 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 27 01:40:52 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:40:52 -0700 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <20051027010758.5f9a0117.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200510261544150312.0174C215@10.0.0.252> <20051027010758.5f9a0117.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200510262340520642.03291B5A@10.0.0.252> On 10/27/2005 at 1:07 AM Scott Stevens wrote: >So I had a cheapskate franken-computer for a long while. Boy that was an >ugly and awkward hack looking back now.) "Standard" PC was a little loose in those days. I remember that the first Compaq luggables had cards that fit and worked in a PC box, but the cover was a very tight fit because the Compaq cards stuck up pretty far on top. Way OT: Does anyone have a Xenix boot disk for a TRS-80 Model 16? Does it require a hard disk or can you run with the two floppies? Cheers, Chuck From news at computercollector.com Thu Oct 27 01:46:53 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: East coast movie - wants to rent old computers In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.4.2.20051026231348.0310f258@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <20051027064653.26343.qmail@web31806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Whoa, a nice opportunity. I just responded to her on behalf of our local MARCH club. Hopefully they're on the northern east coast so it is local. Then again, maybe they'll fly us down to Miami. :) - Evan --- John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > > At 06:33 PM 10/26/2005, you wrote: > > >Help Jennifer (in NYC) if you can! > > > > > Jennifer Greenberg - email: > > > yougotjen(-at-)yahoo(-dot-)com > > > > > > I am working on a movie for which I will need > > > computers from the mid 1970's, and > > > mid to late 1980's. I am wondering if you know of > > > any sources on the east coast who might be > > > interested in renting such things. > > > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > > > Jennifer > > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > >Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. > >http://farechase.yahoo.com > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/149 - Release Date: 10/25/2005 > > > From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 02:10:53 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:10:53 +0800 Subject: [Fwd: PDP-11 Collection for Sale] In-Reply-To: <435FB159.90805@gmail.com> References: <435FB159.90805@gmail.com> Message-ID: Anybody going for this? I can't be part of the pickup but I can confirm a unit of RL02 (working hopefully) plus controller (RLV12?) if anyone can ship to CA 90631. On 10/27/05, tomP wrote: > Forwarded from vmsnet.pdp-11 with permission by poster > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: PDP-11 Collection for Sale > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:02:57 -0400 > From: Will Kranz > Organization: Info-PDP11<==>vmsnet.pdp-11 Gateway > Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 > > Gentlemen: > My dad passed away over the weekend. He has be acquiring 11/23 systems and > componets > for something like 25 years. Its time to clean out the basement. I don't > want to give things > away, but do want some of this to go to good homes where I know it will get > the love and > care that it deserves. I thought I'd give you guys the opportunity before > posting anything on > Ebay. > > I'm starting a web page where I will attempt to maintain a list of > equipment: > http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/forsale.htm > > The stuff is located in Darien, CT just off I-95. You'd have come pickup > or arrange shipping > as I do not have the energy for it. Please make me an offer I can't > refuse. Use the email > address above, or the contact information on the web page. > > Be well, Will > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: 10/24/2005 > > ---------- > To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to > info-pdp11-request at village.org, with the first line of the message > body being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes). > From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 02:12:08 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:12:08 +0800 Subject: Homebrew newsgroups / forums? In-Reply-To: <02ab01c5da9d$c49de550$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <02ab01c5da9d$c49de550$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On 10/27/05, Jay West wrote: > Gord wrote... > > I'm building a Z80 based computer as a stepper motor controller, and it > > would be nice if there was a homebrew newsgroup to ask questions on since > > I don't think this is the group to do so - any recommendations? > > Um... I would certainly think developing a new system around a classic > processor (Z-80) is certainly ok on this group :) > What if it is a 50MHz Rabbit? :-) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Oct 27 02:15:07 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:15:07 +0100 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist In-Reply-To: <200510261747550332.01E5F98E@10.0.0.252> References: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> <200510261747550332.01E5F98E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43607E7B.4070907@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/26/2005 at 11:49 AM Erik Klein wrote: > > >>The question is: how do I clean the drives completely without any real >>chance of data being recovered? The only other option would be to leave >>the drives behind so they can be crushed. > > > If there is/was sensitive data on the drives and I were in the management > decision-making position, there's no way I'd let those drives out of the > door intact, no matter what anyone told me about being able to erase them. > The logic is pretty obvious--what do I have to gain by letting the drives > out assuming they've been cleared and what do I stand to lose by letting > them go if they aren't? A sense of their own self-importance? No-one cares that much, except ego-charged management types. Really. After the disk has been overwritten *once*, the data can not be recovered without extremely specialised tools. Write a suitably random pattern over the whole disk a couple of times, and it is gone. Utterly gone. No amount of prodding with electron microscopes will bring it back. Gordon. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Oct 27 02:17:24 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:17:24 +0100 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <20051027010758.5f9a0117.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 27/10/05 07:07, "Scott Stevens" wrote: > And all the PC (pre-XT) machines had the wider-slot-spacing of the original > PC, so it's not likely anybody 'upgraded' the motherboard in an original case > to an XT or XT-clone motherboard. In that case even my cassette powered 5150 isn't a 'pc' then. Curses. :) A From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Oct 27 02:23:05 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:23:05 +0100 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <200510261717540535.01CA7F42@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 27/10/05 01:17, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > Around then, Sears (from their computer store) was ostensibly selling PCs, > but while they had a demo system with CGA, they didn't have any units for > sale. > > For a time, even IBM PCs were hard to come by. Just like now in fact, though I guess I'm not actively looking for one - just waiting for it to drop into my lap. Figuratively speaking :) A From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 02:27:38 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:27:38 +0800 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: References: <200510261717540535.01CA7F42@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 10/27/05, Adrian Graham wrote: > > > > On 27/10/05 01:17, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > > Around then, Sears (from their computer store) was ostensibly selling PCs, > > but while they had a demo system with CGA, they didn't have any units for > > sale. > > > > For a time, even IBM PCs were hard to come by. > > Just like now in fact, though I guess I'm not actively looking for one - > just waiting for it to drop into my lap. Figuratively speaking :) > Good thing for the "figuratively speaking" else it'll bound to break your femur. :-) From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Oct 27 02:28:28 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 02:28:28 -0500 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <20051026192145.E13079@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051026170711.E12625@shell.lmi.net> <43603798.5010403@oldskool.org> <20051026192145.E13079@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4360819C.9010501@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>One of these days, I've got to find the original power supply (black with >>>white switch), and take the extra drives, boards, ROMs, etc. out of my 16K >>>5150 before I sell it. Are people actually paying money for those things? >> > On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > >>Yes. More if you leave them in :-) > > Really?? > I assumed that it would be worth more with IBM parts in it. Yes, but that's not what you wrote. You never said you'd put the original IBM parts back in. I love my 5150, but the RAM on the CGA card is going; I can see some bits randomly toggling back and forth while in graphics mode (doesn't happen in text mode, oddly). However, I'd STILL take an original CGA card because the clone cards have different textmode fonts in ROM (presumably to avoid copyright infringement) and all of the non-IBM fonts look quite horrid. > I used it for 20+ years as a secondary machine for miscellaneous stuff. I still use mine for assembler programming. I figure if I can make it work on a 5150, it will work anywhere ;-) But in all seriousness it forces me to program well. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Oct 27 02:29:09 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:29:09 +0100 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <20051026170711.E12625@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 27/10/05 01:50, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > Do you mean 5150 PC, or 5160 XT? > By "64K" MB, do you mean 16K - 64K? or 64K - 256K? The 16-64K PC. > The 5150 PC had FIVE slots, cassette port, > available in 16K-64K (4116 8/1981) or 64K-256K (4164). In that case I DO have a PC, pity it's 250 miles away right now so I can't go to check.....it's still the later board though, but it DOES have an associated 5161 expansion unit that I've seen mentioned elsewhere as somewhat of a rarity. http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/ibm/pc.php > The 5160 XT had EIGHT slots, no cassette port, > available in 64K-256K or 640K. Check. There's one of those 6 feet away from where I'm typing this. Time I wasn't here! A From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 02:35:06 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 03:35:06 -0400 Subject: Homebrew newsgroups / forums? In-Reply-To: References: <02ab01c5da9d$c49de550$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: There are embedded news group and fpga news group. People there are more than happy to help. vax, 9000 On 10/27/05, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > On 10/27/05, Jay West wrote: > > Gord wrote... > > > I'm building a Z80 based computer as a stepper motor controller, and it > > > would be nice if there was a homebrew newsgroup to ask questions on > since > > > I don't think this is the group to do so - any recommendations? > > > > Um... I would certainly think developing a new system around a classic > > processor (Z-80) is certainly ok on this group :) > > > > What if it is a 50MHz Rabbit? :-) > > From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Oct 27 03:38:25 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:38:25 +0100 Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer CULTURE. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00ca01c5dad1$cd840ad0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Tony Duell wrote: > And even components are getting more difficult to find. Yes, there are > plenty of places on the net to get stuff, most, if not all, will take > credit cards (or Paypal, or...) and send you the stuff. But the days > of being able to pop into a local shop for a 1k resistor are very > much over. Maplins still have shops and they still sell components - they had LDRs available when I needed one a few months ago. Admittedly most of the shop if full of kits and pre-built stuff, but they still do individual components. They aren't local (to me) though. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Oct 27 04:12:53 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 05 09:12:53 GMT Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0510270912.AA01595@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Scott Stevens wrote: > How well do they encrypt the ZIPs? There are some pretty powerful > ZIPcracking tools out there. Well, it's no longer a concern for me. I don't give a damn about Xilinx any more. I've just got the CD with Altera's Quartus for Linux and it's all normal tarballs, which I have unpacked just fine manually without using any installer. Then after giving it a bootleg license file I've got the command line tools working. So, reiterating for those who haven't caught the gist - I now have working command line tools under Linux (no Winblows, no GUI, no X display needed) for compiling Altera FPGAs. I start with Verilog sources and get an SOF (SRAM object file) for the FPGA, all command line controlled by a Makefile, just like compiling C code with cc under UNIX. Isn't this something to celebrate? MS From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Oct 27 06:31:59 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:31:59 -0400 Subject: Interex membership list for sale In-Reply-To: <200510270429.j9R4TQb7042123@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510270429.j9R4TQb7042123@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4360BAAF.4000702@mdrconsult.com> Gil Carrick wrote: > ... > >> Most of the world is trying to outlaw SPAM. The State of >>California is going into the business. >> >> >> Doc > > > It could have been worse. They could have sold it on a non-exclusive basis > to everybody who wanted it. True. Still, it's cold comfort at best. Doc From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 27 06:53:31 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:53:31 -0400 Subject: Z80 Telescope Controller (was Homebrew newsgroups / forums?) Message-ID: <0IP00076UOZD5MA0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Z80 Telescope Controller (was Homebrew newsgroups / forums?) > From: gtulloch at shaw.ca > Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:36:51 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Well, ok, in that case ... > >I'm building a Z80 based microcontroller as a telescope controller, to >run a few stepper motors, calculate and correct for periodic errors as >well as XYZ errors in the mount. The driver circuit is done >(http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/cot/steppercircuit.html), and >currently runs off a DOS app which uses the parallel port to pulse >the motor windings. However, I prefer not to use a dedicated >DOS PC so I'd like to put a Z80 in front of the driver with an RC >circuit connected to the NMI so I know how long the duration between >interrupts is and can thus calc the steps required to track. For historic >reasons the code will be written in FORTH - a PC connected via serial >will do all the heavy lifting as far as telling the Z80 where to point >and how. Comments on the veracity of this architecture welcome! RC circuits drift with temerature and voltage, not an accurate source of time or position information. A better whay uses a timer chip like the Z80 CTC or 8253. Though a PIC or other micro(8048, 8051) usually has a timer counter on board. Generally speaking using a micro as a morot controller is commmonplace. The real trick is being able to start at a calibrated point and return back to it (resetability) as well as move to any point with accuracy. So beside the mechanical problem of movement there are the issues of knowing where you are or at least where the start point is. >I have a few questions I'm hoping someone can answer for me, starting >with the following: I have a Z80A and a 4 mhz TTL clock >oscillator - I'm wondering if it would be ok to connect the clock >directly to the CPU or is it wise to connect it via a parallel or >serial resonant oscillator circuit like those described here: Yes, you can if CMOS, if not then add a 330 ohm pullup resistor. The Z80 requires a clock that swings closer to ground and Vcc than all the other pins. >http://www.z80.info/uexosc.htm > >Why be so elaborate? The data sheets for the oscillator doesn't say >"Make sure you connect via a parallel or serial resonent oscillator >circuit!" Because most digital hackers would not know what it is maybe? A parallel or series resonant osc refers to the whay the crystal is connected in and used. The inportant thing is to meet the rise and fall times as well as the logic high and low voltages that the Z80 requires. and that wasn't addressed well there. >Thanks for any light you can shed on this, Google hasn't been helpful. >I have references that do it both ways without explanation so I'm >confused! If google isn't helpful then you asked the wrong question. There is literally mountains of z80 information out there. Allison From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 27 07:12:23 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510270912.AA01595@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from Michael Sokolov at "Oct 27, 5 09:12:53 am" Message-ID: <200510271212.FAA13966@floodgap.com> > Well, it's no longer a concern for me. I don't give a damn about Xilinx > any more. I've just got the CD with Altera's Quartus for Linux and it's > all normal tarballs, which I have unpacked just fine manually without > using any installer. Then after giving it a bootleg license file I've > got the command line tools working. > > So, reiterating for those who haven't caught the gist - I now have > working command line tools under Linux (no Winblows, no GUI, no X display > needed) for compiling Altera FPGAs. I start with Verilog sources and > get an SOF (SRAM object file) for the FPGA, all command line controlled > by a Makefile, just like compiling C code with cc under UNIX. Isn't > this something to celebrate? That you, basically, stole the software? Congratulations. You're sticking it to the man. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- My dark soul burns with fiery agreement. Or possibly tacos. -- 8-bit #508 -- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 27 07:18:06 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC cassette BIOS was Re: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <200510261950040797.0255CFA1@10.0.0.252> from Chuck Guzis at "Oct 26, 5 07:50:04 pm" Message-ID: <200510271218.FAA16254@floodgap.com> > The easiest way to see how it all worked is to go to the PC BIOS listing > (it's also the easiest way to use it). > Basically, the calls boil down to this: [excellent summary snipped] Thank you. Does this apply to the PCjr also? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- With a rubber duck, one's never alone. -- Douglas Adams, "HGTTG" ----------- From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Oct 27 08:10:42 2005 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:10:42 -0400 Subject: US Sources for old ICs Message-ID: William Donzelli wrote: > Ever notice that in the 60s and 70s, they did not use flatpacks all that > properly? For some reason, the philosophy was to have the leads quite > long. No real reason for that, is there? The "official" way of mounting flatpacks also required you to mill a chunk of the board away so the IC sits in the PCB, and then you have to weld (not solder) the leads to the PCB. Maybe in the 60's it made sense but with multilayer boards today getting rid of all those signal traces (as well as the ground and power planes!) just won't fly. It's possible that the long leads had somethng to do with welding them. I got the impression that flatpacks weren't about increasing density but were an over-reaction to problems with hermetic seals and bent leads. Tim. From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Oct 27 08:28:59 2005 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:28:59 -0400 Subject: Classic embedded development tools Message-ID: The FPGA/Xilinx swearing around here reminds me... Many years ago (OK, decades, actually a good chunk of a century now) the tools for doing embedded software development from the manufacturers were: 1. Distributed as source code 2. Widely portable 3. Well-documented in terms of file formats Examples are the Intel 8008 PL/M compiler they released in Fortran and the original PALASM (Monolithic Memories?) in Fortran. (IIRC the PALASM source appeared in printed form in one of the manuals). Even for commercial tools, the three "good things" enumerated above were often true. The reason for this openness was because user's didn't all have identical development platforms, often they had access to a timesharing system or a departmental minicomputer that they used for cross-compilation etc. Since then of course the tools have become MSDOS/Windows-only, distributed only as binaries, and sometimes the file formats/ programming process are trade secrets (often reverse-engineered by those using them!) I can see why this happened: supposedly everybody had a PC-clone running Microsoft software, so you could just give away or sell binaries instead of source code. Of course, freeware embedded tools (e.g. GNU and others) today reflect a backlash against the Windows-ization of embedded development tools. A similar thing has happened to SPICE (most users are not using the open-source Berkeley code but instead proprietary versions which lock them in to a specific vendor and that vendor's component models). And there's the backlash to this in the open-source community (SPICE3 with ngspice/gEDA and some GUI's layered on top of it.) But in my experience, outside the hobbyist community the freeware embedded tools don't have much traction. I'd be glad to be proven wrong! Actually I do know of a couple of small commercial projects that used gcc for StrongARM and have heard of a couple that use gcc for MSP430. I myself use gputils (GNU PIC utilities) and gpsim occasionally and am occasionally forced to plunge into hell with commercial embedded development tools (which mostly suck) under Windows. OK, that's my pontification for this morning. Tim. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 27 09:06:32 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:06:32 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: References: <43602D0A.7080509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051027090632.0ed73272@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:35 PM 10/26/05 -0500, Julian wrote: >Uh, did anyone even make any software that used it, or came on cassette? Yes, IBM did. Mike Haas has a tape that I've seen but I don't remember what the SW was. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 27 09:11:31 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:11:31 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <43603904.6000005@oldskool.org> References: <200510261845220263.021A91FE@10.0.0.252> <200510261845220263.021A91FE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051027091131.0ed766e4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:18 PM 10/26/05 -0500, Jim wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I can recall trying the interface out and saying "yes, it works", but the >> most useful aspect of it was the motor control relay. > >Where can I find programming information on the cassette interface? low-level >info? I think Tony Duell once posted a bunch of information about them here. It should be in the archives. Joe From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 27 08:51:31 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:51:31 -0400 Subject: Flip Chips was Re: US Sources for old ICs References: <200510262032.j9QKWMUd033895@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <17248.56163.496654.226402@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Bob" == Bob Bradlee writes: Bob> On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:50:45 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: >> Brent wrote: >>> Across the history of ICs, DIP packaging begins to look like a >>> 25-to-30-year sidebar. >> I like the way "flip chip" (not just the term, but the concept) is >> coming back into vogue, forty years after DEC registered it as a >> trademark. >> Tim. Bob> From: Bob> http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=72200706 Bob> U.S. Class: 026 (International Class 009) ELECTRONIC CIRCUIT Bob> MODULES OF THE PLUGABLE TYPE, ... Bob> Is this an early description of what we know today as surface Bob> mount ? or an early description of the Controlled Collapse Chip Bob> Connection, or C4 (C4) process used by Monolithic Systems Bob> Technology MST, introduced in 1968 formally by IBM ? Certainly not surface mount. I don't know the other things you mention, but probably not. "Flip Chip" as a DEC trademark simply designates the PC board with stuff on them that implements some function and can be plugged into a backplane. Remember that DEC originally was in the logic modules business -- the PDP-1 was its *second* product. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 27 08:54:40 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:54:40 -0400 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist References: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> <200510261747550332.01E5F98E@10.0.0.252> <43607E7B.4070907@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <17248.56352.191759.406163@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Gordon" == Gordon JC Pearce writes: Gordon> After the disk has been overwritten *once*, the data can not Gordon> be recovered without extremely specialised tools. Write a Gordon> suitably random pattern over the whole disk a couple of Gordon> times, and it is gone. Utterly gone. No amount of prodding Gordon> with electron microscopes will bring it back. There is an excellent article on this whole subject by Simson Garfinkel -- I don't remember the title or publication. He described collecting a bunch of secondhand PCs and investigating what was left on them, and discussed various cleanup tools and how well they defend against attempts to recover data. If a decisionmaking person is worried about this issue but interested in hard facts, that article may be helpful to provide those facts. paul From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Oct 27 09:04:34 2005 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:04:34 -0400 Subject: Flip Chips was Re: US Sources for old ICs Message-ID: Paul wrote: > "Flip Chip" as a DEC trademark simply designates the PC board with > stuff on them that implements some function and can be plugged into a > backplane. That's what it ended up meaning, and most of the modules indeed were made up of discrete wire-lead components and DIP's on a plug-in card. But DEC's original intention was a much closer bonding of a hybrid module to a PCB sans wires. See my thread in a.f.c. on this topic in 1998 :-). Tim. From emu at ecubics.com Thu Oct 27 10:40:05 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:40:05 -0600 Subject: Classic embedded development tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4360F4D5.8000100@ecubics.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > But in my experience, outside the hobbyist community the > freeware embedded tools don't have much traction. I'd be glad to > be proven wrong! Actually I do know of a couple of > small commercial projects that used gcc for StrongARM and > have heard of a couple that use gcc for MSP430. Just spend some time and look, how many of the "commercial" vendors are actually selling just front-end (GUI !) to tools from the GNU Chain. This is at least true for a lot of the 32-bit developement packages. And, even the big players are selling you those for big bucks. > I myself use gputils (GNU PIC utilities) and gpsim occasionally > and am occasionally forced to plunge into hell with commercial > embedded development tools (which mostly suck) under > Windows. Yes, and then you notice again, how easy it actually was, to make your compiles with make, it was portable, and easy to understand what is happening behind the scripts. PFUI ! ;-) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 27 10:50:39 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:50:39 -0700 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist In-Reply-To: <43607E7B.4070907@gjcp.net> References: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> <200510261747550332.01E5F98E@10.0.0.252> <43607E7B.4070907@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200510270850390592.05207299@10.0.0.252> On 10/27/2005 at 8:15 AM Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >A sense of their own self-importance? No-one cares that much, except >ego-charged management types. Really. > >After the disk has been overwritten *once*, the data can not be >recovered without extremely specialised tools. Write a suitably random >pattern over the whole disk a couple of times, and it is gone. Utterly >gone. No amount of prodding with electron microscopes will bring it back. That may be true, but you don't understand the mind of a manager. Everything done needs to be done for a payoff. IF there were a substantial tax incentive to let the drive go out of the door, that might warrant a second thought. But as it is, the payoff for ltaking the chance (however vanishingly miniscule) for letting an employee remove sensitive information from the premises is exactly zero. Hence, the safe route (turning into metallic hamburger) is the only route available--unless the employee can come up with a payoff. Eternal gratitude is seldom a motivator in today's corporate world. Cheers, Chuck From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Oct 27 10:50:36 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 05 15:50:36 GMT Subject: FPGA VAX update Message-ID: <0510271550.AA02098@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > That you, basically, stole the software? I didn't steal it, I forcibly liberated it for the People. And there was much rejoycing. MS From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 27 10:55:52 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510271550.AA02098@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from Michael Sokolov at "Oct 27, 5 03:50:36 pm" Message-ID: <200510271555.IAA13922@floodgap.com> > > That you, basically, stole the software? > > I didn't steal it, I forcibly liberated it for the People. > And there was much rejoycing. I don't think piracy is much to crow about, personally. We wink at abandonware around here, but this is a rather different animal. Please make sure you inform Altera that you have liberated [sic] their software, if you truly believe the words that are coming out of your mouth. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A little inaccuracy sometimes saves tons of explanation. -- H. H. Munro ---- From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 27 11:02:33 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:02:33 -0700 Subject: PC cassette BIOS was Re: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <200510271218.FAA16254@floodgap.com> References: <200510271218.FAA16254@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200510270902330549.052B577E@10.0.0.252> On 10/27/2005 at 5:18 AM Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> The easiest way to see how it all worked is to go to the PC BIOS listing >> (it's also the easiest way to use it). >> Basically, the calls boil down to this: >[excellent summary snipped] > >Thank you. Does this apply to the PCjr also? I don't know for certain, but I suspect at the BIOS level, they're the same. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 27 11:25:01 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:25:01 -0600 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510270912.AA01595@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0510270912.AA01595@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <4360FF5D.3080203@jetnet.ab.ca> Michael Sokolov wrote: >So, reiterating for those who haven't caught the gist - I now have >working command line tools under Linux (no Winblows, no GUI, no X display >needed) for compiling Altera FPGAs. I start with Verilog sources and >get an SOF (SRAM object file) for the FPGA, all command line controlled >by a Makefile, just like compiling C code with cc under UNIX. Isn't >this something to celebrate? > > > That is only once it works do you celebrate. :) >MS > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 27 11:29:11 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:29:11 -0600 Subject: Classic embedded development tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43610057.5030204@jetnet.ab.ca> Tim Shoppa wrote: >The FPGA/Xilinx swearing around here reminds me... > >Many years ago (OK, decades, actually a good chunk of a >century now) the tools for doing embedded software development from >the manufacturers were: > >1. Distributed as source code >2. Widely portable >3. Well-documented in terms of file formats > >Examples are the Intel 8008 PL/M compiler they released in Fortran >and the original PALASM (Monolithic Memories?) in Fortran. > > > But then they changed Fortran compilers. $#!% You can still get the source, just you can't compile on new machines easy. From alberto at a2sistemi.it Thu Oct 27 11:56:56 2005 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 18:56:56 +0200 Subject: IBM 5155 Power supply schematics or info In-Reply-To: <43610057.5030204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I'm repairing an IBM 5155 with defective power supply. I've try some components replacement (electrolitc capacitors) with no results. The rectified main voltage is present, but it never start up. Anyone know if there are schematics of this power supply available on the net ? Any experencies with this power supply ? Thanks ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax 0321 391769 Il mio museo di vecchi computers/My old computers museum http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 Skype : albertorubinelli ------------------------------------------------------ From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 27 12:28:08 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:28:08 -0500 Subject: Piracy and the FPGA discussion References: <0510271550.AA02098@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <004d01c5db1b$d6710c20$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> MS wrote... > I didn't steal it, I forcibly liberated it for the People. > And there was much rejoycing. Ok, that's over the line. We here on classiccmp pride ourselves on respecting copyrights, intellectual property, software licensing, and the like. I know that the vast majority, probably all... of the people on this list try very hard to work WITH the manufacturers and authors to obtain hobbyist use licenses, abiding by those licenses, and respecting the manufacturers/authors when for whatever reason they decide not to allow a hobbyist license (or comitting a work to the public domain). We play by the rules. Perhaps a better approach would have been for you to call the software author, and work with them to get some things opensourced. I'm sure several people on the list would have been interested in helping you with that. Make a compelling case to them. It can sometimes work, and our hobby looks better for it. Michael, by doing what you have done and even more importantly (to me) by publicly posting about it here, you have tarnished the very open source, hobbyist license, free use environment which you claim to champion. Simply put, your actions are hurting the rest of us. Quite frankly, we don't want your actions in this matter associated with our group. I have privately warned you about posts to this list a few times, so now the warning is public. Your moderation flag has been turned on, so all your posts will be subject to moderation until such time as I feel it is no longer necessary. Jay West Classiccmp.Org classiccmp list owner From news at computercollector.com Thu Oct 27 12:52:17 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:52:17 -0400 Subject: Pre-VCF meetup, anyone? Message-ID: <001201c5db1f$2c80b9f0$6401a8c0@owneriywbc5o7y> I'll be in town Wedneday to work on my exhibit, that way I don't have to transport the whole thing from New Jersey. Anyone want to hang out Wednesday night for dinner / drinks? (I have plans already for Thursday). Friday, of course, is VCF set-up day at the museum. Staying at the Quality Inn Mountain View, best way to reach me will be cell phone (646.546.9999) or periodic email. Wish I could get my IBM Simon working alongside my Treo. ;) ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Oct 27 13:01:46 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: <0510271550.AA02098@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: > I didn't steal it, I forcibly liberated it for the People. > And there was much rejoycing. I gotta say that the act is getting old, MS. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From news at computercollector.com Thu Oct 27 13:45:35 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:45:35 -0400 Subject: Piracy and the FPGA discussion In-Reply-To: <004d01c5db1b$d6710c20$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <002c01c5db26$9f651810$6401a8c0@owneriywbc5o7y> Hey cctalkers, I decided to automatically router all mail from MS (ironic initials!) to my junk folders a long time ago. So why am I sending this on-list reply now? Many of you have read MS' rants against just about everything, and probably assumed they were just sarcasm or jokes because they're so ridiculous. Unfortunately, the dude is serious. Here are four examples from his web site at http://ivan.harhan.org/: 1. In the document at http://ivan.harhan.org/documents/911schoolpaper.txt titled "The Real Causes of the 9/11 Events" he states / refers to the following: - "The U.S. government is the worst gang of criminals to ever set foot on the surface of this planet, and it is fundamentally hostile to all life on Earth. It is fundamentally anti-people, and the people who happen to live inside America itself ("in the belly of the beast" as we say) are no different." - "worldwide Jewish conspiracy" - "In conclusion, we can see that one way or the other, by hook or by crook, the events of 9/11 are in the end the handiwork of the American capitalist shadow government" - he quotes from another essay that "Even as you righteously hate [the terrorists], you have to admire them for their genius." 2. In another essay, at a whopping 21,437 words (http://ivan.harhan.org/documents/2003-05-briefing-doc.txt), he refers in the first sentence to an email "in which I described what I know or suspect regarding the ET colonial power that is currently holding us in slavery and has been doing so for the past several millennia" -- and then uses the next 21,400 words to justify that belief. 3. At http://ivan.harhan.org/documents/immortality-briefing.pdf he's got a supposed CIA document titled "Top Secret UFO Sensitive Area" in which it's claimed that secret government research has overcome human mortality based on knowledge from aliens. 4. Finally, there's my favorite part, the web page located at http://ivan.harhan.org/Internationale/. On this page it's stated that "Interplanetary Internationale is a union of people of all races and nationalities dedicated to total liberation of Earth from all oppressive and occupying forces, to guarantee every person or sentient being the inalienable rights of life, liberty, integrity of body and spirit and realisation of happiness. Our interplanetary aspect rests in our understanding of our role in the exopolitical theatre of interplanetary space. We do not seek to occupy or colonise any other planets. Instead we offer our friendship, solidarity and cooperation to people from any other planet who uphold the same sacred principles of the inalienable rights of every sentient being, and who choose to join forces with us against the common enemies of life." Okay, Evan talking again... a person's political beliefs are irrelevant to his knowledge of vintage computing. But do us all a favor, MS, and take your shit back to whichever of these other planets you came from. Or for a less expensive solution, seek some professional therapy. Don't waste your time flaming me because, as I said, I used Microsoft Outlook on Windows XP (oh, don't you hate these tools being used against you?) to create a rule forwarding all your mail to my junk folder. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 1:28 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Piracy and the FPGA discussion MS wrote... > I didn't steal it, I forcibly liberated it for the People. > And there was much rejoycing. Ok, that's over the line. We here on classiccmp pride ourselves on respecting copyrights, intellectual property, software licensing, and the like. I know that the vast majority, probably all... of the people on this list try very hard to work WITH the manufacturers and authors to obtain hobbyist use licenses, abiding by those licenses, and respecting the manufacturers/authors when for whatever reason they decide not to allow a hobbyist license (or comitting a work to the public domain). We play by the rules. Perhaps a better approach would have been for you to call the software author, and work with them to get some things opensourced. I'm sure several people on the list would have been interested in helping you with that. Make a compelling case to them. It can sometimes work, and our hobby looks better for it. Michael, by doing what you have done and even more importantly (to me) by publicly posting about it here, you have tarnished the very open source, hobbyist license, free use environment which you claim to champion. Simply put, your actions are hurting the rest of us. Quite frankly, we don't want your actions in this matter associated with our group. I have privately warned you about posts to this list a few times, so now the warning is public. Your moderation flag has been turned on, so all your posts will be subject to moderation until such time as I feel it is no longer necessary. Jay West Classiccmp.Org classiccmp list owner From allain at panix.com Thu Oct 27 13:54:39 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:54:39 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update References: Message-ID: <041501c5db27$e32cd1e0$6401a8c0@ibm23xhr06> > I gotta say that the act is getting old, MS. Old? It's the history of the World. If things get boring, declare war on enough parties until you just about can't get out of trouble. Then either you get out of it, or you get killed. John A. seen a few go on CCmp before. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 27 14:10:57 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:10:57 -0500 Subject: Piracy and the FPGA discussion References: <002c01c5db26$9f651810$6401a8c0@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <012201c5db2a$293a1970$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Evan wrote.... > Many of you have read MS' rants against just about everything, and > probably > assumed they were just sarcasm or jokes because they're so ridiculous. > Unfortunately, the dude is serious. Here are four examples from his web > site at http://ivan.harhan.org/: Let's leave the personal attacks off the list too please. Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 14:13:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:13:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051026210618.3ac774de@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Oct 26, 5 09:06:18 pm Message-ID: > > At 01:52 AM 10/27/05 +0100, you wrote: > >> Mine was for the PC, not the XT; but even with 256K on the mobo, it wasn't > >> the memory that made me ditch the thing. It was the FIVE EXPANSION SLOTS! > > > >And what is wrong with the 5161 expansion cabinet? > > Well besides being HUGE and the fact that it didn't support all of the It is, of course, the same size as the PC or XT system cabinet, and can stack on top of it. > cards, it costs $2585! (with a hard drive) That's almost three times what >From what I remmember, you can't put video cards in the expansion cabinet, and if you want to put memory in it, you have to set DIP switches on one of the expansion unit cards to set the address boundary between memory in the system unit and memory in the expansion cabinet (that implies, of course, that memory from 0 to some address is in the system unit, memory above that address is in the expansion cabinet). I am not aware of any problems with any pure I/O port cards going in the expansion cabinent. > I paid for my first XT clone! FWIW I've only seen one of the things. They > must not have sold many of them. They are fairly rare, but I hae at least 2, and maybe 3. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 14:43:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:43:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: <43605A4B.7030406@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 27, 5 05:40:43 am Message-ID: > > You know, that always surprises me - I'd expect board swapping to rarely > cause problems for reasonably modular systems (I can believe it with > such as DEC hardware though, where you so much as cough near it and > something breaks ;) OK, one that bit me (it's not a board-swap, it's a module swap, but...). The fan in this PC's PSU decided to fail (bad bearings). I didn't have a fan in stock, so foolishly, I grabbed a 'spare' IBM-brnaded PC/AT PSU from the shelf amd swapped it in. It would be quicker, I thought, than extracting the fan from that PSU and popping it into the existing PSU. Result : the machine didn't power up at all. It turned out that the 2 PSUs were of different makes (although both IBM labelled), and both met the IBM spec _which specifies a minimum load on some of the outputs). The 'old' supply had been happy with less load than that, then 'new' one wasn't. And of course my modern hard drive didn't put much load on the 12V line. It would have been quicker, and a lot less hassle, to just swap out the fan. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 14:16:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:16:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <43602D0A.7080509@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Oct 26, 5 09:27:38 pm Message-ID: > > Did anyone ever see fit to make a cassette interface compatible with > that of the 5150 that was on a card? Not that I know of, but it should be possible. As you may know, there were BIOS routines to access the cassette port (I forget the number, INT 15h ?). They simply return without doing anything on the XT (and AT). A BIOS extension ROM could intercept that interrupt vector and drive a cassette port. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 14:49:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:49:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer CULTURE. In-Reply-To: <00ca01c5dad1$cd840ad0$5b01a8c0@pc1> from "a.carlini@ntlworld.com" at Oct 27, 5 09:38:25 am Message-ID: > Maplins still have shops and they still sell components - they > had LDRs available when I needed one a few months ago. > Admittedly most of the shop if full of kits and pre-built > stuff, but they still do individual components. Maplin still list compoents in the catalogue, but I've lost count of the number of common devices that are 'speical order only'. At least one of the local Maplins doesn't even keep common values of resistors in the shop. So this does not solve the problem of getting a 10k resistor on a saturday afternnon... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 14:26:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:26:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <436036A3.30601@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Oct 26, 5 09:08:35 pm Message-ID: > > This reminds me: I have a music program that claimed to send multi-voice sound > through either the PC speaker or the cassette interface. While I know how it > did this feat through the PC speaker (tied the speaker to a timer port and > pulsed), I have no idea how the cassette interface stuff worked. Other than > BIOS calls, is there any documentation out there (port addresses, etc.) on the > cassette interface? I have a 5150 right here I'd love to dork around with. Of course therre's docuemntation. IBM sold a proper TechRef for this machine with schematics and BIOS source. Cassette output (which is what you're interested in) uses channel 2 of the 8253 counter/timer -- the same channel that's used for speaker output. The output of the 8253 is buffered by U63a ('38), then fed to a potential divider to set the right audio level (aux or mic levels are set by a jumper on the mainboard, it simply selects taps on this potential divider) Casssette input is doen almost all in software. The incoming signal is amplified/clipped by U1 (741 op-amp), then fed to port PC4 on the mainboard 8255. The motor control relay is driven my port PB3 of this 8255, suitably buffered. Note that if the relay is not energised, then the aux-level output is fed back to the cassette input circuit via the relay contacts to be used for self-test diagnositcs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 14:32:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:32:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <43603904.6000005@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Oct 26, 5 09:18:44 pm Message-ID: > Where can I find programming information on the cassette interface? low-level > info? In the IBM Personal Computer Technical Reference Manual, of course. How low-level do you want. The spec for the BIOS-level interface seems to be : Int 15h On entry, request type is in AH, as follows AH=0 : turn motor on AH=1 : turn motor off AH=2 : Read Tape Block. Read CX bytes into memory starting at ES:BX. Return actuall number of bytes read in DX. Return status in AH AH=3 : Write tape block. Write CX bytes to cassette starting at ES:BX. Return status in AH Status (note, carry is set on any error) AH=0 : No errors AH=1 : CRC error in read block AH=2 : No data transsitions AH=4 : No leader AH=80 : Invalid command There's a lot more, including descriptions of the tape waveformas and the block format, but I'll only type all this in if you need it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 14:37:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:37:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interex membership list for sale In-Reply-To: <200510270429.j9R4TQb7042123@keith.ezwind.net> from "Gil Carrick" at Oct 26, 5 11:19:07 pm Message-ID: > > ... > > Most of the world is trying to outlaw SPAM. The State of > > California is going into the business. > > It could have been worse. They could have sold it on a non-exclusive basis > to everybody who wanted it. Is there anything to stop the purchaser of said membership list doing just that with it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 15:36:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:36:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 Power supply schematics or info In-Reply-To: from "Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi" at Oct 27, 5 06:56:56 pm Message-ID: > > I'm repairing an IBM 5155 with defective power supply. I've try some > components replacement (electrolitc capacitors) with no results. The > rectified main voltage is present, but it never start up. I hav ereverse-engineered this unit (there is no official schematic in any of the manuals). > Anyone know if there are schematics of this power supply available on the > net ? Alas I have no scanner, so as yet there are no schematics in eelctronic form. But I will see if something can be done. > Any experencies with this power supply ? I've never had to repair one, but from what I remember it is a fairly conventional design. -tony From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Oct 27 15:47:08 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:47:08 +0100 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist In-Reply-To: <200510270850390592.05207299@10.0.0.252> References: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> <200510261747550332.01E5F98E@10.0.0.252> <43607E7B.4070907@gjcp.net> <200510270850390592.05207299@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43613CCC.40406@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > That may be true, but you don't understand the mind of a manager. > Everything done needs to be done for a payoff. > > IF there were a substantial tax incentive to let the drive go out of the > door, that might warrant a second thought. > > But as it is, the payoff for ltaking the chance (however vanishingly > miniscule) for letting an employee remove sensitive information from the > premises is exactly zero. Hence, the safe route (turning into metallic > hamburger) is the only route available--unless the employee can come up > with a payoff. Eternal gratitude is seldom a motivator in today's > corporate world. Ah, but what if the $THREE_LETTER_AGENCY has a device that can reassemble the drive fragments and read them? I read somewhere that they can do that, these days... Sci-fi is still sci-fi, no matter how much you might want to believe. Gordon. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Oct 27 16:08:04 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:08:04 -0400 Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. References: Message-ID: <001401c5db3a$85cb81a0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. > > > > You know, that always surprises me - I'd expect board swapping to rarely > > cause problems for reasonably modular systems (I can believe it with > > such as DEC hardware though, where you so much as cough near it and > > something breaks ;) > > OK, one that bit me (it's not a board-swap, it's a module swap, but...). > The fan in this PC's PSU decided to fail (bad bearings). I didn't have a > fan in stock, so foolishly, I grabbed a 'spare' IBM-brnaded PC/AT PSU > from the shelf amd swapped it in. It would be quicker, I thought, than > extracting the fan from that PSU and popping it into the existing PSU. > Result : the machine didn't power up at all. It turned out that the 2 > PSUs were of different makes (although both IBM labelled), and both met > the IBM spec _which specifies a minimum load on some of the outputs). The > 'old' supply had been happy with less load than that, then 'new' one > wasn't. And of course my modern hard drive didn't put much load on the > 12V line. It would have been quicker, and a lot less hassle, to just swap > out the fan. > > -tony I guess it would depend on how long the PS was functioning without a working fan as to whether I would replace the fan or junk the PS and get a new one. Was the PS under warranty? If so better to send it back then to void the warranty and fiddle with the internals (depending on costs). For commodity PC parts that will wear out I tend to just replace them as needed and keep spares handy. On items that are hard to find I will swap the item when I can scrounge another and mark the old one as bad and put it on the shelf hoping someday I will get a chance to fix it once I get a clue what's broken (this is what I did with a Mac Quadra 950 PS I have on the shelf). The PS swap you did was not a total loss, atleast you learned about the minimum load needed in the system you have. I don't like blind board swapping (where you just keep replacing parts until it sort of works fine again), but don't have a problem with tracing the error down to exactly what is causing the problem and then swapping that part/board/assembly out. There has to be some kind of structured approach to the problem, especially in a work type environment. From alberto at a2sistemi.it Thu Oct 27 16:19:03 2005 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:19:03 +0200 Subject: IBM 5155 Power supply schematics or info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I hav ereverse-engineered this unit (there is no official schematic in > any of the manuals). Great! I have plan to do the same, in nobody has already done :) > Alas I have no scanner, so as yet there are no schematics in eelctronic > form. But I will see if something can be done. Thanks, thanks and more thanks ! > I've never had to repair one, but from what I remember it is a fairly > conventional design. In the past I've repaired two, but with very simple damage, one with the output capacitors die and another with the auxiliary little transformer with primary coil interrupted. The circuit work around an old pwm controller, SG3524 of SGS Thomson. Thanks Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax 0321 391769 Il mio museo di vecchi computers/My old computers museum http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 Skype : albertorubinelli ------------------------------------------------------ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 27 16:23:41 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:23:41 -0700 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist In-Reply-To: <43613CCC.40406@gjcp.net> References: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> <200510261747550332.01E5F98E@10.0.0.252> <43607E7B.4070907@gjcp.net> <200510270850390592.05207299@10.0.0.252> <43613CCC.40406@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200510271423410830.06515E11@10.0.0.252> On 10/27/2005 at 9:47 PM Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >Ah, but what if the $THREE_LETTER_AGENCY has a device that can >reassemble the drive fragments and read them? I read somewhere that >they can do that, these days... I don't know if the Christians in Action actually have the equipment in-house to do this, but as I recall, it requires something like a STM and is very very very slow (something like 1 Kbit/hr). Wasn't there some work on this published by a guy at ETH a few years back? IAC, stories like this just give the naysaying manager more ammo. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 27 16:24:47 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:24:47 -0700 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510271424470285.06525DC0@10.0.0.252> On 10/27/2005 at 8:32 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >There's a lot more, including descriptions of the tape waveformas and the >block format, but I'll only type all this in if you need it. Hmmm, didn't I just do that yesterday? Cheers, Chuck From news at computercollector.com Thu Oct 27 16:39:22 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:39:22 -0400 Subject: Hobby-related blogs, anyone? Message-ID: <006801c5db3e$e5671300$6401a8c0@owneriywbc5o7y> Does anyone here publish (or can recommend) well-written blogs focusing on vintage computing? I'm aware of bytecellar.com and retrothing.com but would like to list some more on the newsletter homepage. - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Oct 27 12:51:26 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:51:26 +0000 Subject: chipset pinout wanted for 82C206. In-Reply-To: <200510262303050619.0306843D@10.0.0.252> References: <20051027032238.KDGY25800.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <20051027215022.NZDC26967.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Chuck and others: bad and good: this link that I got is partially intact datasheet for NEAT chipset, missing the 82C206 and it was blocked on same site that requires registation and other places that have this info requires subscription. GOOD NEWS: found the info in unlikely place, a service manual *for* old samsung 486sx/dx notebook at my work (we do TV/stuff)! I DID have the datasheet for 82C206 but for some reason on that HD had this stuff went POOF during the Great Corbybel (nuclear) trojan purge on stroke of midnight. Grrr. Even I had this printed out is gone too, must be one of those cleaning times. Even I'm missing early Scott Mueller's editions, I had one! I needed that to look up on the PS/2 stuff several weeks ago. Sigh! Be careful of what you throw WHAT away. Cheers, Wizard From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 17:02:31 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 18:02:31 -0400 Subject: chipset pinout wanted for 82C206. In-Reply-To: <20051027215022.NZDC26967.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20051027032238.KDGY25800.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <200510262303050619.0306843D@10.0.0.252> <20051027215022.NZDC26967.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: I had an 80186 develop system manual that had the 80c206 manual included. I sold it on ebay to Australia. If nobody on the list can find other sources, I am more than willing to dig out the email of the buyer and beg him for a copy of the pinout. vax, 9000 From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Oct 27 17:16:52 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:16:52 -0500 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist In-Reply-To: <200510271423410830.06515E11@10.0.0.252> References: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> <43613CCC.40406@gjcp.net> <200510271423410830.06515E11@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510271716.53003.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 27 October 2005 16:23, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/27/2005 at 9:47 PM Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >Ah, but what if the $THREE_LETTER_AGENCY has a device that can > >reassemble the drive fragments and read them? I read somewhere that > >they can do that, these days... > > I don't know if the Christians in Action actually have the equipment > in-house to do this, but as I recall, it requires something like a > STM and is very very very slow (something like 1 Kbit/hr). Wasn't > there some work on this published by a guy at ETH a few years back? > > IAC, stories like this just give the naysaying manager more ammo. You know, there's easier ways for government agencies, etc, to get a hold of the data than to try and recover it off of an erased disk, like, social engineering, or court orders, for example. It's probably cheaper to bribe someone to give you the data than to recover it via technological means. Your boss should be more worried about his employees selling off sensitive company data (or even someone breaking in and getting it off of a live machine) than recovering it from a well-erased disk. By well-erased, I mean requiring more than just some software on a computer to recover the data... dd'ing /dev/zero to a drive *is* good enough, where just mkfs/newfs'ing the disk isn't. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Thu Oct 27 17:21:51 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:21:51 -0500 Subject: Chicago-area DECies? Message-ID: Hey, I was just wondering if any of my fellow DECies on this list live in the Chicago area, I know there were quite a few DEC shops around here back in the day. From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Thu Oct 27 17:31:47 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:31:47 -0500 Subject: It figures! (broken 9-track) Message-ID: Well, it figures. I was bragging on the list about how great my 9 track worked with the DQ132, and the power supply blows. I turn it on now, and no lights, nothing. Anyone have a clue what might have gone? I was away when it happened. The PDP11 was off, and I had left the 9 track on, plugged into the power control. The unit is an Overland OD3201. There is no external fuse. TIA Julian From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Oct 27 17:31:58 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:31:58 +0100 Subject: Chicago-area DECies? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 27/10/05 23:21, "Wolfe, Julian" wrote: > Hey, I was just wondering if any of my fellow DECies on this list live in > the Chicago area, I know there were quite a few DEC shops around here back > in the day. I was there in July and I'll be there next year, this doesn't help you much I feel :) A From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 17:43:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:43:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: <001401c5db3a$85cb81a0$0500fea9@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Oct 27, 5 05:08:04 pm Message-ID: > > > You know, that always surprises me - I'd expect board swapping to rarely > > > cause problems for reasonably modular systems (I can believe it with > > > such as DEC hardware though, where you so much as cough near it and > > > something breaks ;) > > > > OK, one that bit me (it's not a board-swap, it's a module swap, but...). > > The fan in this PC's PSU decided to fail (bad bearings). I didn't have a > > fan in stock, so foolishly, I grabbed a 'spare' IBM-brnaded PC/AT PSU > > from the shelf amd swapped it in. It would be quicker, I thought, than > > extracting the fan from that PSU and popping it into the existing PSU. > > Result : the machine didn't power up at all. It turned out that the 2 > > PSUs were of different makes (although both IBM labelled), and both met > > the IBM spec _which specifies a minimum load on some of the outputs). The > > 'old' supply had been happy with less load than that, then 'new' one > > wasn't. And of course my modern hard drive didn't put much load on the > > 12V line. It would have been quicker, and a lot less hassle, to just swap > > out the fan. > > > > -tony > > I guess it would depend on how long the PS was functioning without a working > fan as to whether I would replace the fan or junk the PS and get a new one. > Was the PS under warranty? If so better to send it back then to void the > warranty and fiddle with the internals (depending on costs). Don't be silly. It's _me_ you're talking about. The machine was (then) over 10 years old. > The PS swap you did was not a total loss, atleast you learned about the > minimum load needed in the system you have. Well, technically (!) I already had that information. The IBM PC/AT Techref gives the PSU spec (although no schematics). Thing is, the PSU was supplied by various vendors, all _met_ the official spec, some exceeded it rather. My system did not have enough load to be withing spec (I should have added one of those IBM load resistors :-)), but it worked with the original PSU (which exceeded the ofifical spec), not with the one I swapped in. OK, in sesne it was my fault in that my machine was out of spec. But it's the sort of thing that can easily happen when you replace a module with one that's not quite identical (but appears to be). > > I don't like blind board swapping (where you just keep replacing parts until > it sort of works fine again), but don't have a problem with tracing the That, agreed, is what board-swapping usually means, and what I really object to. If you're going to swap boards, you _have_ to do enough tests to be sure the board in quesiton is the defective part (and the fact that the machine appears to work when that board is replaced is not enough, as I've explained many times in the past). And to be honest, if you've done enough tests to _know_ which board is faulty, you don't need to do much more to find the faulty component on that board. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 17:48:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:48:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 Power supply schematics or info In-Reply-To: from "Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi" at Oct 27, 5 11:19:03 pm Message-ID: > > > I hav ereverse-engineered this unit (there is no official schematic in > > any of the manuals). > > Great! I have plan to do the same, in nobody has already done :) I traced out scheamtics of the PSUs in all my IBMs... > > > Alas I have no scanner, so as yet there are no schematics in eelctronic > > form. But I will see if something can be done. > > Thanks, thanks and more thanks ! How quickly do you need this? I am wondering if handing a copy to a friend at an HPCC meeting in a couple of weeks time would be soon enough. > > > I've never had to repair one, but from what I remember it is a fairly > > conventional design. > > In the past I've repaired two, but with very simple damage, one with the > output capacitors die and another with the auxiliary little transformer with > primary coil interrupted. > The circuit work around an old pwm controller, SG3524 of SGS Thomson. Yes, and the control chip is on the 'output' side of the PSU, the drive to the bases of the chopper transistors is transformer-coupled. There are 3 little daughterboards in there. One is an inrush limiter and contains a relay that shorts out a power resistor once the smoothing capacitors have charged. Another contains the overcurrent protection circuit, and, IIRC, a 12V regulator. The last contains the overvoltage protection circuit (the chips on that board are LM339 quad comparators). Waht I would do next is : Check you're getting about 350V DC across the mains smoothing capacitors (2 electrolytics in series) CHeck you're getting power to the 3524 (if not, troubleshoot the circuit round that little transformer you mentioned) Check that the 3524 is oscillating. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 17:58:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:58:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <200510271424470285.06525DC0@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 27, 5 02:24:47 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/27/2005 at 8:32 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >There's a lot more, including descriptions of the tape waveformas and the > >block format, but I'll only type all this in if you need it. > > Hmmm, didn't I just do that yesterday? Yes, you did, but I read yuor message after I'd replied to the first one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 18:03:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 00:03:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: It figures! (broken 9-track) In-Reply-To: > > Well, it figures. I was bragging on the list about how great my 9 track > worked with the DQ132, and the power supply blows. I turn it on now, and no > lights, nothing. > > Anyone have a clue what might have gone? I was away when it happened. The > PDP11 was off, and I had left the 9 track on, plugged into the power > control. > > The unit is an Overland OD3201. There is no external fuse. NEver having seen this unit, I can't offer specific help, but I would at least start by opening it up. Look for _intenral_ fuses, check them, but don't necesarily replace them if they're blown. You do want to see how violently they belew -- if the glass is shattered or blackened by a film of metak, then the the thing really took some current! It would also be useful to know if this is a switching supply (look for electrolytics rated at 200V or more), or a linear (is there a large laminated-core transformer?). And what the main components, espeically ICs, are. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 27 18:52:32 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:52:32 -0700 Subject: It figures! (broken 9-track) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510271652320140.06D9A13C@10.0.0.252> On 10/28/2005 at 12:03 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >> The unit is an Overland OD3201. There is no external fuse. Are you sure? On my OD 3210, the fuse is hidden in a little compartment just below the IEC power cord socket. (It's actually part of the IEC connector; just use a small screwdriver to pry it open--the fuse is inside. Cheers, Chuck From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Oct 27 15:23:14 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:23:14 +0000 Subject: Fixed! 82C206 cmos backup power problem. In-Reply-To: References: <20051027215022.NZDC26967.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <20051028002210.PVMY28424.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Well, well, Pinout of 82C206 made short work of confirming that did lose backup power. Fault was in the 3.6V battery's plug contact, wiggled that plug made voltage bounce back and forth. The board is Asus ISA-386U3Q, 256K cache installed, UMC chipset and had decaying CMOS battery so I removed it long ago before I put that board in storage waiting for a case to come along. That time came when I recently picked up generic plamsa display lunch box case that have generic 386dx board, not cached. Took new 3.6V nicd battery pack and spliced in plug to it instead of soldered pack. The mAh rating is 280mAh instead of puny 60mAh. I have questions about plamsa display stuff shortly. Thought this chipset had seperate cmos back up supply pin. Actually not, this is shared supplies with use of diode. Cheers, Wizard From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Oct 27 20:11:32 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:11:32 -0500 Subject: Another P/S question Message-ID: <6346c9be645842b6bcf97037352bf0f8@valleyimplants.com> Whilst waiding through the IRISes power supply, I found another exploded paper cap. (PS date 1985). Is this likely normal, or should I look somewhere else (don't have a working scope). Would the failure of one cap put more stress on the remaining ones? When I get the machine working, I hope to have something interesting to report, but I have no confirmation yet. ScottQ From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Oct 27 20:17:22 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:17:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Japanese computers Message-ID: I have developing somewhat of an interest in Japanese computers lately, and recently on a.f.c., someone pointed to the museum at: http://www.ipsj.or.jp/katsudou/museum/ Great pictures! I noticed that some of the pictures appear to be of survivors - old machines from the 60s and 70s that are still around. Does anyone, perhaps a Japanese list member (are there any?) know anything about the computer museum scene in Japan? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vp at cs.drexel.edu Thu Oct 27 20:31:55 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:31:55 -0400 Subject: Piracy and the FPGA discussion Message-ID: <20051028013155.51244200DA8C@mail.cs.drexel.edu> "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" wrote: > I decided to automatically router all mail from MS (ironic initials!) > [...] Here are four examples from his web site at http://ivan.harhan.org/ > [...] So Michael Sokolov (MS) is living is California? I somehow pictured him in an abandoned ICBM silo near Moscow, surrounded by Soviet era VAX clones :-) **vp From news at computercollector.com Thu Oct 27 20:35:11 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:35:11 -0400 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004901c5db5f$d711a100$6401a8c0@owneriywbc5o7y> Discussed a little bit at one of their English pages: http://www.ipsj.or.jp/katsudou/museum/index_e.html -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 9:17 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Japanese computers I have developing somewhat of an interest in Japanese computers lately, and recently on a.f.c., someone pointed to the museum at: http://www.ipsj.or.jp/katsudou/museum/ Great pictures! I noticed that some of the pictures appear to be of survivors - old machines from the 60s and 70s that are still around. Does anyone, perhaps a Japanese list member (are there any?) know anything about the computer museum scene in Japan? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Oct 27 20:40:18 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:40:18 -0500 Subject: Chicago-area DECies? In-Reply-To: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F106687F8@hermes.CLCILLINOI S.EDU> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20051027204003.025f99e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> I'm in the Chicago area. --tom At 04:42 PM 10/27/2005 -0500, Wolfe, Julian wrote: >Hey, I was just wondering if any of my fellow DECies on this list live >in the Chicago area, I know there were quite a few DEC shops around here >back in the day. >---------- >To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to >info-pdp11-request at village.org, with the first line of the message >body being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes). From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Oct 27 20:55:46 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:55:46 -0500 Subject: Chicago-area DECies? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051027204003.025f99e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Really? Whereabouts? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Uban Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 8:40 PM To: Wolfe, Julian ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; info-pdp11 at village.org Subject: Re: Chicago-area DECies? I'm in the Chicago area. --tom At 04:42 PM 10/27/2005 -0500, Wolfe, Julian wrote: >Hey, I was just wondering if any of my fellow DECies on this list live >in the Chicago area, I know there were quite a few DEC shops around >here back in the day. >---------- >To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to >info-pdp11-request at village.org, with the first line of the message body >being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes). From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 27 20:58:03 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 18:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Oct 27, 5 09:17:22 pm" Message-ID: <200510280158.SAA11692@floodgap.com> > I have developing somewhat of an interest in Japanese computers lately, > and recently on a.f.c., someone pointed to the museum at: > > http://www.ipsj.or.jp/katsudou/museum/ > > Great pictures! The pictures *are* nice, but it seems to have forgotten about the Tomy line and a number of not-so-me-too MSX systems. I don't expect ultraobscure systems to appear (the Commodore Ultimax comes to mind), but the Pyuuta series, at least, did seem to be produced in some numbers as they are not hard to find on Japanese auction sites. Pyuuta reference (yours truly): http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/tomy/pyuuta/ -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible - From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 27 21:02:55 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:02:55 -0600 Subject: cloned stuff In-Reply-To: <20051028013155.51244200DA8C@mail.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20051028013155.51244200DA8C@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <436186CF.9010604@jetnet.ab.ca> Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: >So Michael Sokolov (MS) is living is California? >I somehow pictured him in an abandoned ICBM silo near Moscow, surrounded >by Soviet era VAX clones :-) > > > Don't give him more ideas. Did the Soviets clone the Vax? I know they cloned 11's but what about other computers? Was DEC the only computer brand worth cloning? >** > > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Oct 27 21:36:15 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cloned stuff In-Reply-To: <436186CF.9010604@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051028023615.80992.qmail@web81309.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > Did the Soviets clone the > Vax? I know they > cloned 11's > but what about other computers? Was DEC the only > computer brand worth > cloning? The East Germans firm Robotron definitely cloned the VAX, as well as the IBM 360. I've seen a Robotron VAX clone at the CHM. The 360 clone was interesting in that they even copied the cabinet design, unlike the VAX clone that I saw. At some point, Soviet central planning settled on a "unified system" of computers that were basically copied western designs. I suppose it simplified the problem of software to some degree, but it stifled formerly robust homegrown development efforts. Perhaps one of the Russion list members might have more to say about this and Soviet-era computing in general. --Bill From gilcarrick at comcast.net Thu Oct 27 21:38:19 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:38:19 -0500 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist In-Reply-To: <17248.56352.191759.406163@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200510280248.j9S2mrmv064660@keith.ezwind.net> ... > There is an excellent article on this whole subject by Simson > Garfinkel -- I don't remember the title or publication. He > described collecting a bunch of secondhand PCs and > investigating what was left on them, and discussed various > cleanup tools and how well they defend against attempts to > recover data. > > If a decisionmaking person is worried about this issue but > interested in hard facts, that article may be helpful to > provide those facts. > > paul Maybe not the original article, but a good synopsys: http://www.simson.net/clips/2003/2003.CSO.04.Hard_disk_risk.htm Gil From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 27 22:31:03 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cloned stuff In-Reply-To: <436186CF.9010604@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20051028013155.51244200DA8C@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <436186CF.9010604@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051027202814.O85594@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, woodelf wrote: > Did the Soviets clone the Vax? I know they > cloned 11's > but what about other computers? Was DEC the only computer brand worth > cloning? I've seen disks from Russia with ASCII text in the system tracks referring to Oki if800 (pictured on the Japanese site!) I have no idea whether it was an if800, or something else using the MS Stand-alone BASIC of the if800. OB_OT: And last week, I spent a few minutes with a cyrillic version of Windoze 98 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 27 23:03:02 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:03:02 -0700 Subject: cloned stuff In-Reply-To: <20051027202814.O85594@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051028013155.51244200DA8C@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <436186CF.9010604@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051027202814.O85594@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200510272103020923.07BEF84C@10.0.0.252> On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, woodelf wrote: > Did the Soviets clone the Vax? I know they > cloned 11's > but what about other computers? Was DEC the only computer brand worth > cloning? I know they definitely cloned IBM System/360 mainframes. The Bulgarians apparently were good at cloning peripherals. And the Soviets certainly cloned the IBM PC. Of course, they had their own architectures, too. Some years ago, I think there was an article in IEEE CS Annals of Computing about the Soviet computer scene. Cheers, Chuck From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Oct 27 23:58:13 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:58:13 -0500 Subject: Chicago-area DECies? In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20051027204003.025f99e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20051027235741.02527a60@mail.ubanproductions.com> Valparaiso, where are you? At 08:55 PM 10/27/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Really? Whereabouts? > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Tom Uban >Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 8:40 PM >To: Wolfe, Julian ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; >info-pdp11 at village.org >Subject: Re: Chicago-area DECies? > >I'm in the Chicago area. > >--tom > >At 04:42 PM 10/27/2005 -0500, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > > >Hey, I was just wondering if any of my fellow DECies on this list live > >in the Chicago area, I know there were quite a few DEC shops around > >here back in the day. > >---------- > >To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to > >info-pdp11-request at village.org, with the first line of the message body > >being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes). From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Oct 28 00:16:41 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 00:16:41 -0500 Subject: Interex membership list for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200510280526.j9S5Qq7H066910@keith.ezwind.net> ... > > It could have been worse. They could have sold it on a > non-exclusive > > basis to everybody who wanted it. > > Is there anything to stop the purchaser of said membership > list doing just that with it? > > -tony It would depend on the terms of the sale. Also, the bidders I remember from the article looked like legit users, not mailing list sellers. Gil From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Oct 27 08:37:39 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:37:39 -0400 Subject: East coast movie - wants to rent old computers In-Reply-To: <20051027064653.26343.qmail@web31806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.5.4.2.20051026231348.0310f258@boff-net.dhs.org> <20051027064653.26343.qmail@web31806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.4.2.20051027093637.0312f9d0@boff-net.dhs.org> The email said she needed help in NYC. What is this Miami bit and why would you want to go to a hurricane disaster area with valuable vintage computer equipment? Heh. -John Boffemmyer IV At 02:46 AM 10/27/2005, you wrote: >Whoa, a nice opportunity. I just responded to her on behalf of our >local MARCH >club. Hopefully they're on the northern east coast so it is local. Then >again, maybe they'll fly us down to Miami. :) > > - Evan > >--- John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > > > > > > At 06:33 PM 10/26/2005, you wrote: > > > > >Help Jennifer (in NYC) if you can! > > > > > > > Jennifer Greenberg - email: > > > > yougotjen(-at-)yahoo(-dot-)com > > > > > > > > I am working on a movie for which I will need > > > > computers from the mid 1970's, and > > > > mid to late 1980's. I am wondering if you know of > > > > any sources on the east coast who might be > > > > interested in renting such things. > > > > > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > > > > > Jennifer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > > >Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. > > >http://farechase.yahoo.com > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/149 - Release Date: 10/25/2005 > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/149 - Release Date: 10/25/2005 From kelly at catcorner.org Thu Oct 27 10:22:50 2005 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:22:50 -0400 Subject: Tandy Xenix Boot Disk Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A336A9@mail.catcorner.org> > From: Chuck Guzis > Sent: 10/27/2005 2:40 AM > Subject: Re: PC Ephemera > > Way OT: Does anyone have a Xenix boot disk for a TRS-80 Model 16? > Does it require a hard disk or can you run with the two floppies? > > Cheers, > Chuck Do you want a copy of one of the original disks? I have version 3.1, but that requires a PAL update to the 68000 board. I MAY have version 1.1 or 1.3 around somewhere. Do you want 5.25" or 8" media? As long as you have the 68000 board and memory intstalled, you can boot with a floppy and a file system diskette, but you don't have many of the tools. What are you trying to do? I loved the diskutil, but that doesn't actually require loading Xenix. If you have a later generation hard drive controller in your machine, you can probably use just about any RLL/MFM interface drive to get going. If you don't then If you have the middle generataion (without the red bus lines), you'll need the external primary drive case with a working 12 meg or larger MFM drive installed. Kelly From dwight at ca2h0430.amd.com Thu Oct 27 11:47:34 2005 From: dwight at ca2h0430.amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Z80 Telescope Controller (was Homebrew newsgroups / forums?) Message-ID: <200510271647.JAA11086@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: gtulloch at shaw.ca > >Well, ok, in that case ... > >I'm building a Z80 based microcontroller as a telescope controller, to >run a few stepper motors, calculate and correct for periodic errors as >well as XYZ errors in the mount. The driver circuit is done >(http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/cot/steppercircuit.html), and >currently runs off a DOS app which uses the parallel port to pulse >the motor windings. However, I prefer not to use a dedicated >DOS PC so I'd like to put a Z80 in front of the driver with an RC >circuit connected to the NMI so I know how long the duration between >interrupts is and can thus calc the steps required to track. For historic >reasons the code will be written in FORTH - a PC connected via serial >will do all the heavy lifting as far as telling the Z80 where to point >and how. Comments on the veracity of this architecture welcome! > >I have a few questions I'm hoping someone can answer for me, starting >with the following: I have a Z80A and a 4 mhz TTL clock >oscillator - I'm wondering if it would be ok to connect the clock >directly to the CPU or is it wise to connect it via a parallel or >serial resonant oscillator circuit like those described here: > >http://www.z80.info/uexosc.htm > >Why be so elaborate? The data sheets for the oscillator doesn't say >"Make sure you connect via a parallel or serial resonent oscillator >circuit!" > >Thanks for any light you can shed on this, Google hasn't been helpful. >I have references that do it both ways without explanation so I'm >confused! Hi I think you are confusing a crystal oscillator with a crystal. The circuits shown are for the crystal alone and you provide the oscillator. If you are using a crystal, one needs to match the type of crystal, parallel/series, to get it to work at the stated frequency. This has to do with the phase shift that the crystal provides for the oscillator. In one case, the phase is 0 degrees while the other, it is 180 degrees. Even so, using ttl parts for oscillators can have issues. If the crystal is over driven, it will age quickly and drift in frequence or even fail to oscillate. Also issues like startup time need to be addressed in some applications. You'd want the oscillator running well before releasing reset on a CPU. Dwight > >Regards, > Gord > >cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote on 26/10/2005 09:25:58 PM: > >> Gord wrote... >> > I'm building a Z80 based computer as a stepper motor controller, and >it >> > would be nice if there was a homebrew newsgroup to ask questions on >since >> > I don't think this is the group to do so - any recommendations? >> >> Um... I would certainly think developing a new system around a classic >> processor (Z-80) is certainly ok on this group :) >> >> Jay >> > From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Thu Oct 27 12:10:05 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:10:05 -0400 Subject: Flip Chips was Re: US Sources for old ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200510271720.j9RHJx7s054614@keith.ezwind.net> On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:04:34 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: >Paul wrote: >> "Flip Chip" as a DEC trademark simply designates the PC board with >> stuff on them that implements some function and can be plugged into a >> backplane. >That's what it ended up meaning, and most of the modules indeed were made up of discrete wire-lead components and DIP's on >a plug-in card. What I find interesting is that, what it ended up meaning, was closer to the original trademark claim than it was to the actual original use. The modern flip chip (processor) is very much like the MST chip I referenced/linked to in my original post. The circuitry is surface mounted sans wires to the carrier providing connectivity to the outside world using pins or pads. A quick online patent search came up with 157 patents referring to "filpchip"[s] from the mid 70 through the present. The oldest reference on-line is 1976 Signetics Corporation - Semiconductor transducer packaged assembly... and 1977 Sharp Kabushiki Kaisha (Osaka, JP) - Installation of a semiconductor chip on a glass substrate... There are references to a 1960 IBM patent but it's text has not been put online yet. While the Trademark online search system is very comprehensive, the patent search system does not go back very far, yet .... it gets a little better every year.... There seems to be a lot of DECies around this list, I was wondering when DEC stopped using/marketing the flipchip NAME as a trademark. Part of the black art surrounding trademark law is the idea that a trademark can not be descriptive of the product or service it represents. There is a written exception for famous trademarks where the mark has taken on a descriptive meaning of its own. The most recent example is Google, it is a noun, verb, adjective, and a registered trademark. My knowledge of DEC is very limited. The only DEC systems I ever supported were PDP8e's in ECRM OCR readers. I toggled in the boot loader, more times than I care to remember. ECRM produced a flying spot scanner for the newspaper business. When a customer call in a classified, the call center would type the billing info along with the add title and body text using a selectric OCR-A ball. We would scan the form, split it, send the billing info to accounting via a serial link, and format the text and send it to a photo-typesetter in the composing room. We called the replacement cards as flip-chips on those systems. Did the name continue on to the pdp10 or pdp11 ? >But DEC's original intention was a much closer bonding >of a hybrid module to a PCB sans wires. See my thread >in a.f.c. on this topic in 1998 :-). a.f.c. ?? Could you please send me a link to this thread or copy me off list ? >Tim. Enough muttering, gota get back to my rat-killen :) Bob From tequilizer at gmx.net Thu Oct 27 14:17:53 2005 From: tequilizer at gmx.net (Tequi Lizer) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:17:53 +0200 Subject: HP 9845 C with 280 option startup failure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <436127E1.3030302@gmx.net> > I haev no idea what the Option 290 is either. In fact I don't even know > what I have -- I know it's a 9845B with the high-speed language > processor, 2 tape drives, intenral printer, 1 256K word RAM board (and > the usual 2 RO > > Then you probably got what is called "option 270" with something like a total of 318 kbytes plus 512 kbytes memory extension. If you're interested, I think you can check in one of the 9845 specification brochures from www.hpmuseum.org. Internally your machine should be completely identical to mine, except one or two ROMs which are special for the color monitor, even the RAM expansion probably is the same (98407A). What I'm really interested in: The model 200 versions have a new power supply unit, no voltage check points any more, but a 4 LED indicator (and twice the number of electrolytic capacitors inside). Those LEDs flash in a special pattern sequence during power-up, and then stay all on (I actually don't know whether this indicates success or failure). The power supply unit in the monitor has a similar LED indicator, after finishing power-up, only the rightmost LED is on, which indicates success (at least that's what the manual says). How is it in your system? > Alas pictures do not repsond to continuity testers and logic analysers :-) > > Not that easy, d'accor. --Ansgar From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Thu Oct 27 16:42:23 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:42:23 -0500 Subject: Chicago-area DECies? Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F106687F8@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Hey, I was just wondering if any of my fellow DECies on this list live in the Chicago area, I know there were quite a few DEC shops around here back in the day. From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Thu Oct 27 17:31:25 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:31:25 -0500 Subject: It figures! (broken 9-track) Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F10668844@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Well, it figures. I ws bragging on the list about how great my 9 track worked with the DQ132, and the power supply blows. I turn it on now, and no lights, nothing. Anyone have a clue what might have gone? I was away when it happened. The PDP11 was off, and I had left the 9 track on, plugged into the power control. The unit is an Overland OD3201. There is no external fuse. TIA Julian From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Thu Oct 27 17:31:39 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:31:39 -0500 Subject: Recall: It figures! (broken 9-track) Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F10668845@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Wolfe, Julian would like to recall the message, "It figures! (broken 9-track)". From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 28 01:35:43 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:35:43 -0700 Subject: Interex membership list for sale In-Reply-To: <200510280526.j9S5Qq7H066910@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510280526.j9S5Qq7H066910@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200510272335430312.084ABD48@10.0.0.252> On 10/28/2005 at 12:16 AM Gil Carrick wrote: >It would depend on the terms of the sale. Also, the bidders I remember from >the article looked like legit users, not mailing list sellers. IIRC, when it's a bankruptcy sale supervised by the court, any restrictions previously imposed can be waived by the judge. Cheers, Chuck From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Oct 28 05:06:43 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:06:43 +0100 Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. References: Message-ID: <007501c5dba7$4d263c60$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> I'll wade in with my comments now....... Board swapping is a useful method for high reliability systems (I work in air traffic control engineering), and leads to a very high availability of the system, especially when coupled with high levels of redundancy, we use the "three level" service/maintenance regime that has already been discussed. However, for the system to provide the required levels of service, it needs a serious investment in spares, logistics and training, for example: Spares. All spare boards in the system must be tracked to a known state of serviceability and modification - as Tony has pointed out, just because it says the same thing on the box, it isn't always the same! Logistics. You need to have the right parts in the right place at the right time - because of the different skills required for 1st, 2nd and 3rd level repair, at least the 3rd level, and often second level workshops are of site. You need a good stores and transport system to move the stuff around fast, and to track where it is (a computer is NOT always the answer....). You also need an organisation to keep the repair centres fed with the correct spare components, and to provide a "lifetime buy" service for components which are about to become obsolete (I know of some systems that are nearly 40 years old, and are kept at extremely high levels of service with this kind of service). Training. Even the first line technicians need a high level of training, you have to be able to interpret the fault symptoms and work out which board to change. I have some system training so ingrained that I can diagnose faults over the phone 10 years after I last worked "hands on" on the equipment. Now back to our systems! With the above in mind: 1. we rarely know the state of any parts we have - a board that has been un-used for 20 years is quite likely to be faulty! 2. We are self trained on these systems. If we can narrow a fault down to a board, we can often take it down to the component. 3. We are lucky to have any spares! Looking at a less than vintage system, for the most part, it is difficult if not impossible to go below board level ( I can sympathise with Tony here), and nigh on impossible to get information on how that board is working, or even get test equipment that can capture the signals involved (I have a 100MHz (valve) scope with a 4 trace plug-in, or I can borrow a very old logic analyser from work). At this point, we are reduced to board swapping as the only option, though often with little measurement to back it up - the only thing we have over the teenager in PC World, is that at least we have a multimeter and can check the power supply voltages........ We are also at the point where PC components are so cheap they are not worth repairing - I can buy a LAN card for less than ?10. It costs me more than that to pay an engineer to replace it, let alone try and repair it. Even the kid in PC world expects ?5 an hour - if you try and charge some one ?50 for changing a LAN card, you'll soon be out of business I'll duck know. Jim. From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Fri Oct 28 06:21:26 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:21:26 +0200 Subject: cloned stuff References: <20051028013155.51244200DA8C@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <436186CF.9010604@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001001c5dbb1$bc574f20$2101a8c0@finans> >Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: >Did the Soviets clone the Vax? I know they cloned 11's but what about other computers? Was DEC the only computer brand worth cloning? They also pirated the IBM/ 360 series (amongst others). I have a lengthy article on the subject. If you want it, I can mail it to you off-list Nico From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 06:28:37 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:28:37 -0400 Subject: cloned stuff In-Reply-To: <001001c5dbb1$bc574f20$2101a8c0@finans> References: <20051028013155.51244200DA8C@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <436186CF.9010604@jetnet.ab.ca> <001001c5dbb1$bc574f20$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <43620B65.9060107@gmail.com> Nico de Jong wrote: >>Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: >>Did the Soviets clone the Vax? I know they cloned 11's but what about other computers? Was DEC the only computer brand worth cloning? > > > They also pirated the IBM/ 360 series (amongst others). I have a lengthy article on the subject. If you want it, I can mail it to you off-list > > Nico I don't know about Vassilis, but *I'd* like to see it. Peace... Sridhar From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Fri Oct 28 07:25:04 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:25:04 +0200 Subject: [ZS2] Re: cloned stuff References: <20051028013155.51244200DA8C@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <436186CF.9010604@jetnet.ab.ca><001001c5dbb1$bc574f20$2101a8c0@finans> <43620B65.9060107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004201c5dbba$a010c220$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- Fra: Sridhar Ayengar > > They also pirated the IBM/ 360 series (amongst others). I have a lengthy article on the subject. If you want it, I can mail it to you off-list > > Nico I don't know about Vassilis, but *I'd* like to see it. Peace... Sridhar I only have the document in Word, which you can't read, according to a mail in sept 2003 I sent it to Fred van Kempen, who promised to convert it to PDF and put it on his home page. However, I cant get through to www.pdp11.nl. Anyone else able to convert it to PDF ? Nico From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 08:03:20 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:03:20 -0400 Subject: [ZS2] Re: cloned stuff In-Reply-To: <004201c5dbba$a010c220$2101a8c0@finans> References: <20051028013155.51244200DA8C@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <436186CF.9010604@jetnet.ab.ca><001001c5dbb1$bc574f20$2101a8c0@finans> <43620B65.9060107@gmail.com> <004201c5dbba$a010c220$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <43622198.1070800@gmail.com> Nico de Jong wrote: > ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- > Fra: Sridhar Ayengar > > > > They also pirated the IBM/ 360 series (amongst others). I have a lengthy article on the subject. If you want it, I can mail it to you off-list > > > > Nico > > I don't know about Vassilis, but *I'd* like to see it. > > Peace... Sridhar > > I only have the document in Word, which you can't read, according to a mail in sept 2003 > I sent it to Fred van Kempen, who promised to convert it to PDF and put it on his home page. > However, I cant get through to www.pdp11.nl. Anyone else able to convert it to PDF ? I can read Word now. I have it at work. Peace... Sridhar From dmabry at mich.com Fri Oct 28 08:17:50 2005 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:17:50 -0400 Subject: [ZS2] Re: cloned stuff In-Reply-To: <004201c5dbba$a010c220$2101a8c0@finans> References: <20051028013155.51244200DA8C@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <436186CF.9010604@jetnet.ab.ca><001001c5dbb1$bc574f20$2101a8c0@finans> <43620B65.9060107@gmail.com> <004201c5dbba$a010c220$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <436224FE.6090709@mich.com> Nico de Jong wrote: > ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- > Fra: Sridhar Ayengar > > > > They also pirated the IBM/ 360 series (amongst others). I have a lengthy article on the subject. If you want it, I can mail it to you off-list > > > > Nico > > I don't know about Vassilis, but *I'd* like to see it. > > Peace... Sridhar > > I only have the document in Word, which you can't read, according to a mail in sept 2003 > I sent it to Fred van Kempen, who promised to convert it to PDF and put it on his home page. > However, I cant get through to www.pdp11.nl. Anyone else able to convert it to PDF ? > > Nico > > > > Nico, I can convert it to PDF and put it onto a web page for others to download. Let me know if you want my help. Dave From news at computercollector.com Fri Oct 28 08:38:01 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:38:01 -0400 Subject: East coast movie - wants to rent old computers In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.4.2.20051027093637.0312f9d0@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <001501c5dbc4$d28c7320$6401a8c0@owneriywbc5o7y> Oops, I didn't see the NYC part. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Boffemmyer IV Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 9:38 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: East coast movie - wants to rent old computers The email said she needed help in NYC. What is this Miami bit and why would you want to go to a hurricane disaster area with valuable vintage computer equipment? Heh. -John Boffemmyer IV At 02:46 AM 10/27/2005, you wrote: >Whoa, a nice opportunity. I just responded to her on behalf of our >local MARCH club. Hopefully they're on the northern east coast so it >is local. Then again, maybe they'll fly us down to Miami. :) > > - Evan > >--- John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > > > > > > At 06:33 PM 10/26/2005, you wrote: > > > > >Help Jennifer (in NYC) if you can! > > > > > > > Jennifer Greenberg - email: > > > > yougotjen(-at-)yahoo(-dot-)com > > > > > > > > I am working on a movie for which I will need computers from the > > > > mid 1970's, and mid to late 1980's. I am wondering if you know > > > > of any sources on the east coast who might be interested in > > > > renting such things. > > > > > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > > > > > Jennifer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > > >Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. > > >http://farechase.yahoo.com > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/149 - Release Date: > > 10/25/2005 > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/149 - Release Date: 10/25/2005 From rws at ripco.com Fri Oct 28 08:42:24 2005 From: rws at ripco.com (Richard Schauer) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:42:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Chicago-area DECies? In-Reply-To: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F106687F8@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F106687F8@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > Hey, I was just wondering if any of my fellow DECies on this list live > in the Chicago area, I know there were quite a few DEC shops around here > back in the day. I'd not really consider myself a DEC person (more of a general-interest some-of-everything collector, with a fair amount of DEC gear), but I'm in the far NW suburbs (McHenry Co.) Richard Schauer rws at ripco.com From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Oct 28 09:01:31 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:01:31 -0400 Subject: FPGA VAX update In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:02:17 EDT." <435FFCE9.4020200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510281401.j9SE1WWF013858@mwave.heeltoe.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Steve Thatcher wrote: >> and I don't need to hear your profanity about technology that you do not >> care to use. Others don't seem to have a swear to "talk" and they don't ... > >Great. Foist your Puritanical Western Judeo-Christian ideals on the >rest of us. I think that's a little harsh. Last time I checked polite discourse worked pretty much everyone in the world I've been. Where "polite" = no profanity. I've been a lot of places and I'm no puritan. -brad From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 28 08:58:15 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:58:15 +0100 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43622E77.8010707@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: > I have developing somewhat of an interest in Japanese computers lately, Somewhere we have a stack of 1960's Japanese Electronics Industry magazines (written in English, curiously enough), in which there are some interesting articles and pictures of Japanese computers. The bulk of the magazines are about transistor radios and refrigerators, but there's still the occasional computing article in there. It's interesting to see how worried the Japanese were at the time about the US getting ahead of them in the component fabrication game! I'll see if I can find them when I get back to the UK and scan any interesting bits in. cheers Jules From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Oct 28 09:03:43 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:03:43 -0500 Subject: Hobby-related blogs, anyone? In-Reply-To: <006801c5db3e$e5671300$6401a8c0@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <200510281414.j9SEE2CU076145@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Does anyone here publish (or can recommend) well-written > blogs focusing on vintage computing? IMHO, blogs are a waste of time. The information density is way too low. Worse than this list, even. ;) Gil From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 28 09:10:03 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:10:03 -0400 Subject: cloned stuff References: <20051028013155.51244200DA8C@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <436186CF.9010604@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051027202814.O85594@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <17250.12603.175244.103932@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >> Did the Soviets clone the Vax? I know they cloned 11's but what >> about other computers? Was DEC the only computer brand worth >> cloning? I have a copy of a flyer from STIMTI of Vilnius (Lithuania -- then part of the Soviet empire). It starts in 1958. I can't read enough Lithuanian (or Russian, the other language in the document) to figure out the details, but it looks like they did some punch card processing equipment early on. If that's a clone of something it would presumably be IBM stuff. Later on they did DEC clones too, I believe -- the document describes a 32 bit machine called the SM-1700. paul From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Oct 28 09:11:13 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:11:13 -0400 Subject: cloned stuff In-Reply-To: <436186CF.9010604@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20051028013155.51244200DA8C@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <20051028013155.51244200DA8C@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051028101026.03a40858@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that woodelf may have mentioned these words: >Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > >>So Michael Sokolov (MS) is living is California? >>I somehow pictured him in an abandoned ICBM silo near Moscow, surrounded >>by Soviet era VAX clones :-) >> >> >Don't give him more ideas. Did the Soviets clone the Vax? I know they >cloned 11's >but what about other computers? Was DEC the only computer brand worth cloning? Nope, they cloned the Apple ][ as well. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Fri Oct 28 10:24:03 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 17:24:03 +0200 Subject: cloned stuff References: <20051028013155.51244200DA8C@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <436186CF.9010604@jetnet.ab.ca><001001c5dbb1$bc574f20$2101a8c0@finans> <43620B65.9060107@gmail.com><004201c5dbba$a010c220$2101a8c0@finans> <436224FE.6090709@mich.com> Message-ID: <004501c5dbd3$a0d98700$2101a8c0@finans> -Fra: Dave Mabry Nico de Jong wrote: >> Anyone else able to convert it to PDF ? >> >I can convert it to PDF and put it onto a web page for others to download. >Let me know if you want my help. >Dave People were almost falling over their feet, offering assistance. I'll mail it to Dave right away, so it can appear on a web page. All the others : thanks for your help Nico From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Fri Oct 28 10:47:55 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 17:47:55 +0200 Subject: cloned stuff References: <20051028013155.51244200DA8C@mail.cs.drexel.edu><436186CF.9010604@jetnet.ab.ca><20051027202814.O85594@shell.lmi.net> <200510272103020923.07BEF84C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <002601c5dbd6$fbb98190$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- Fra: Chuck Guzis Til: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sendt: 28. oktober 2005 06:03 Emne: Re: cloned stuff On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, woodelf wrote: >> Did the Soviets clone the Vax? I know they >> cloned 11's >> but what about other computers? Was DEC the only computer brand worth >> cloning? > Some years ago, I think there was an article in IEEE CS Annals of Computing > about the Soviet computer scene. The one I retypes, was from Datamation Nico From kth at srv.net Fri Oct 28 11:34:02 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:34:02 -0600 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist In-Reply-To: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> References: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: <436252FA.9000609@srv.net> Erik Klein wrote: >Hey all, > >I've got a DEC Alpha system that I can grab from work but not until I >clean off the hard drives. > >It's a really nice system (server tower plus expansion, tons of docs and >disks, etc.) that I'd like to make available at the VCF. > >The question is: how do I clean the drives completely without any real >chance of data being recovered? The only other option would be to leave >the drives behind so they can be crushed. > > Depends on the level of paranoia. How sensitive is the date, and who are you trying to protect it from? For some, "delete [*...]*.*;*" is enough. However, there are some undelete programs, and you can still look at the raw disk to trace out some data, so this is not very secure. "delete/erase" is better, but doesn't wipe the entire disk, it only erases current files, not previously deleted files. The next level would be "init", which isn't much better than a plain "delete", or "init/erase" which actually damages the data. If it was erased with a simple pattern (zeroes), then the disk platters could be put into a special device that looks at magnetic levels (erasing a 1 leaves a slightly different residual than erasing a 0), or looks at the edge of the tracks to see if the head alignment changed enough to leave data there. Using a degauser is only likely to make the disks unusable to you, but may leave enough for the "black hats" to work with. You also need to worry about any cache built into the drives. Some drives have a battery backed up cache, in case the drive is powered down before it has a chance to write it to the platters. Melting the drives is more likely to perminately erase the data. The more paranoid you are about the data getting out, the more unlikely you are going to save the drives from a smelter. >I don't really know VMS and I'm not sure what versions are available, etc. > >Any help would be appreciated. > > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 28 11:41:41 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:41:41 -0700 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <43622E77.8010707@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43622E77.8010707@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200510280941410376.0A7589A5@10.0.0.252> William Donzelli wrote: > I have developing somewhat of an interest in Japanese computers lately, PC's, minis, or mainframes? --Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Oct 28 12:12:59 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 18:12:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist In-Reply-To: <200510271423410830.06515E11@10.0.0.252> References: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> <200510261747550332.01E5F98E@10.0.0.252> <43607E7B.4070907@gjcp.net> <200510270850390592.05207299@10.0.0.252> <43613CCC.40406@gjcp.net> <200510271423410830.06515E11@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <13858.195.212.29.67.1130519579.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > > On 10/27/2005 at 9:47 PM Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >>Ah, but what if the $THREE_LETTER_AGENCY has a device that can >>reassemble the drive fragments and read them? I read somewhere that >>they can do that, these days... > > IAC, stories like this just give the naysaying manager more ammo. Think about what I wrote for a moment, eh? Gordon. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 28 12:25:04 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:25:04 -0700 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist In-Reply-To: <13858.195.212.29.67.1130519579.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> References: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> <200510261747550332.01E5F98E@10.0.0.252> <43607E7B.4070907@gjcp.net> <200510270850390592.05207299@10.0.0.252> <43613CCC.40406@gjcp.net> <200510271423410830.06515E11@10.0.0.252> <13858.195.212.29.67.1130519579.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200510281025040205.0A9D40D8@10.0.0.252> On 10/28/2005 at 6:12 PM gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: >Think about what I wrote for a moment, eh? What would you like me to say? I've spent a good part of my professional life in the computer forensics arena and have worked closely with many governmental agencies as well as private firms. I think I've a pretty good idea what state of the art in data recovery is. If I were the manager and thought the drives contained sensitive data, I wouldn't let them out of the building in any intact form. Cheers, Chuck (IACIS Life Member) From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 12:35:15 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:35:15 -0400 Subject: VMS Drive Cleanup Assist In-Reply-To: <200510281025040205.0A9D40D8@10.0.0.252> References: <45684.127.0.0.1.1130352564.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> <200510261747550332.01E5F98E@10.0.0.252> <43607E7B.4070907@gjcp.net> <200510270850390592.05207299@10.0.0.252> <43613CCC.40406@gjcp.net> <200510271423410830.06515E11@10.0.0.252> <13858.195.212.29.67.1130519579.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> <200510281025040205.0A9D40D8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43626153.9090804@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/28/2005 at 6:12 PM gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: > > >>Think about what I wrote for a moment, eh? > > > What would you like me to say? I've spent a good part of my professional > life in the computer forensics arena and have worked closely with many > governmental agencies as well as private firms. I think I've a pretty good > idea what state of the art in data recovery is. > > If I were the manager and thought the drives contained sensitive data, I > wouldn't let them out of the building in any intact form. Indeed, one of my buddies runs his hard drives through a stump grinder followed by an oxypropane oven before disposing of them. I tend never to dispose of hard drives. Peace... Sridhar From alberto at a2sistemi.it Fri Oct 28 12:40:04 2005 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:40:04 +0200 Subject: IBM 5155 Power supply schematics or info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I traced out scheamtics of the PSUs in all my IBMs... Great work ! Normally I trace out schematics only when I need to repaire its and I cannot find any schematics on the net. > How quickly do you need this? I am wondering if handing a copy to a > friend at an HPCC meeting in a couple of weeks time would be soon enough. No problem for the time, it's a hobby (great but hobby) non work :) > Yes, and the control chip is on the 'output' side of the PSU, the drive > to the bases of the chopper transistors is transformer-coupled. There are > 3 little daughterboards in there. I have take a look at the circuit. It' similar to some off line converters and other supplies, with control on the secondary side and not in the "live" part of the switch mode. > One is an inrush limiter and contains a > relay that shorts out a power resistor once the smoothing capacitors have > charged. This work, I've tested. The 4 ohm resistor is shorted correctly by the relay > Another contains the overcurrent protection circuit, and, IIRC, > a 12V regulator. The last contains the overvoltage protection circuit > (the chips on that board are LM339 quad comparators). I'm thinking about some protection circuit, because the switching try to startup, for a time less then half second, and then stop. Now I can try to check il any protection become active during startup. The SG3524 il correctly powered and try to fire up the switching transistors, via the pulse transformer, but only for a short time. Thanks Alberto. ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax 0321 391769 Il mio museo di vecchi computers/My old computers museum http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 Skype : albertorubinelli ------------------------------------------------------ From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 13:14:24 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:14:24 -0700 Subject: East coast movie - wants to rent old computers In-Reply-To: <001501c5dbc4$d28c7320$6401a8c0@owneriywbc5o7y> References: <6.2.5.4.2.20051027093637.0312f9d0@boff-net.dhs.org> <001501c5dbc4$d28c7320$6401a8c0@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: I rented lots of equipment to movie people when I had my warehouse in Portland. A BIIN even made it into a Science Fiction movie. They painted ihe case, which was slated for destruction by contract, black. They also dropped a copier and broke it, paying me $1500 instead of the $100 which was the rental. I also supplied IBM terminals for a movie on the first bombing of the twin towers. It is always fun but make sure that you cover the what ifs of damage and or loss. Generally movie people are quite good about keeping things safe. I really enjoyed renting to them. I recommend it. Paxton On 10/28/05, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > > Oops, I didn't see the NYC part. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of John Boffemmyer IV > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 9:38 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: East coast movie - wants to rent old computers > > The email said she needed help in NYC. What is this Miami bit and why > would > you want to go to a hurricane disaster area with valuable vintage computer > equipment? Heh. > -John Boffemmyer IV > > At 02:46 AM 10/27/2005, you wrote: > > >Whoa, a nice opportunity. I just responded to her on behalf of our > >local MARCH club. Hopefully they're on the northern east coast so it > >is local. Then again, maybe they'll fly us down to Miami. :) > > > > - Evan > > > >--- John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > > > > > > > > > > At 06:33 PM 10/26/2005, you wrote: > > > > > > >Help Jennifer (in NYC) if you can! > > > > > > > > > Jennifer Greenberg - email: > > > > > yougotjen(-at-)yahoo(-dot-)com > > > > > > > > > > I am working on a movie for which I will need computers from the > > > > > mid 1970's, and mid to late 1980's. I am wondering if you know > > > > > of any sources on the east coast who might be interested in > > > > > renting such things. > > > > > > > > > > Warm Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Jennifer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > > > >Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. > > > >http://farechase.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > -- > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > > Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/149 - Release Date: > > > 10/25/2005 > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/149 - Release Date: 10/25/2005 > > > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Oct 28 14:10:25 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:10:25 -0500 Subject: Chicago-area DECies? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051027235741.02527a60@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <002a01c5dbf3$4137f7d0$6401a8c0@dementium> I'm about 40 mins north of downtown Chicago. I looked at your site, I was the guy with the 11/23 next to you at the VCF Midwest;) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Uban Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 11:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Chicago-area DECies? Valparaiso, where are you? At 08:55 PM 10/27/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Really? Whereabouts? > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Tom Uban >Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 8:40 PM >To: Wolfe, Julian ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; >info-pdp11 at village.org >Subject: Re: Chicago-area DECies? > >I'm in the Chicago area. > >--tom > >At 04:42 PM 10/27/2005 -0500, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > > >Hey, I was just wondering if any of my fellow DECies on this list live > >in the Chicago area, I know there were quite a few DEC shops around > >here back in the day. > >---------- > >To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to > >info-pdp11-request at village.org, with the first line of the message body > >being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes). From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Oct 28 14:17:00 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:17:00 -0500 Subject: Chicago-area DECies? In-Reply-To: <002a01c5dbf3$4137f7d0$6401a8c0@dementium> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20051027235741.02527a60@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20051028141613.0247cf58@mail.ubanproductions.com> Ok, wouldn't that put you in WI? --tom At 02:10 PM 10/28/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I'm about 40 mins north of downtown Chicago. I looked at your site, I was >the guy with the 11/23 next to you at the VCF Midwest;) > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Tom Uban >Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 11:58 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: RE: Chicago-area DECies? > >Valparaiso, where are you? > >At 08:55 PM 10/27/2005 -0500, you wrote: > > >Really? Whereabouts? > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > >On Behalf Of Tom Uban > >Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 8:40 PM > >To: Wolfe, Julian ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; > >info-pdp11 at village.org > >Subject: Re: Chicago-area DECies? > > > >I'm in the Chicago area. > > > >--tom > > > >At 04:42 PM 10/27/2005 -0500, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > > > > >Hey, I was just wondering if any of my fellow DECies on this list live > > >in the Chicago area, I know there were quite a few DEC shops around > > >here back in the day. > > >---------- > > >To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to > > >info-pdp11-request at village.org, with the first line of the message body > > >being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes). From dwight at ca2h0430.amd.com Fri Oct 28 12:58:39 2005 From: dwight at ca2h0430.amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 Power supply schematics or info Message-ID: <200510281758.KAA10420@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi" > >I'm thinking about some protection circuit, because the switching try to >startup, for a time less then half second, and then stop. Now I can try to >check il any protection become active during startup. >The SG3524 il correctly powered and try to fire up the switching >transistors, via the pulse transformer, but only for a short time. > Hi Alberto One thing that I've seen on some switchers is something that watches to see if the transformer/coil core saturates. It is a simple coil that picks up the stray magnetic fields when the coil is overloaded( that often causes the blowout current in the switching transistor ). One has this detection circuit clamp the gate voltage to the switching transistor when it see excess leakage flux. It works better than a simple current detect because it self compensates for the cores temperature. If there is a current overload, it will keep the circuit from powering up. One could put a LED on it to visually detect the condition. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 20:10:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 02:10:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9845 C with 280 option startup failure In-Reply-To: <436127E1.3030302@gmx.net> from "Tequi Lizer" at Oct 27, 5 09:17:53 pm Message-ID: > > > > I haev no idea what the Option 290 is either. In fact I don't even know > > what I have -- I know it's a 9845B with the high-speed language > > processor, 2 tape drives, intenral printer, 1 256K word RAM board (and > > the usual 2 RO > > > > > > Then you probably got what is called "option 270" with something like a > total of 318 kbytes plus 512 kbytes memory extension. If you're No, that's overdoing the memory. I have 32K words (64K bytes) on the language processor ROM/RAM board. 16K words (32K bytes) on the periperal processor ROM/RAM board. And another 256K word (512K byte) RAM card. > interested, I think you can check in one of the 9845 specification > brochures from www.hpmuseum.org. Well, it's not that important. > > Internally your machine should be completely identical to mine, except > one or two ROMs which are special for the color monitor, even the RAM > expansion probably is the same (98407A). In which case, start pestering Dave Colver for the schematics :-). > > What I'm really interested in: The model 200 versions have a new power > supply unit, no voltage check points any more, but a 4 LED indicator > (and twice the number of electrolytic capacitors inside). Those LEDs Yep, I traced out schematics of the PSU too. Be warned this is _by far_ the most complciated supply you're likely to meet. it's on 5PCBs, there are 17 chips on the control board (counting the chopper transsitor modules for the secondary-side regulators). And 4 maine chopper transistors. A rough breakdown of what is on each board : PSU mainboard (09845-66520) --------------------------- Mains rectifier Startup transformer/rectifiers 2 main chopper transformers +5, +/-12V output (09845-66517) ------------------------------- Output filters (and energy storage inductors for the LV switching regulators) for the logic supply outputs +/- 22V output (09845-66519) ---------------------------- Output filters, etc, for the tape drive and printer power supplies Chopper driver transistors Crobar for the printer supply (this is the only crowbar in the unit!) Chopper (09845-66518) ---------------------- 4 indentcial chopper circuits with transformer-coupled drive (drivers for that are on the -66519 PCB). Wired as 2 totem poles across the 400V rectified mains to drive the 2 main chopper transformers PSU Control (09845-66534) ------------------------- Startup/cotnrol supply regulators Output rectifiers Chopper control for the 2 main choppers Switching regulator control and choppers (PIC6xxx series devices) for the +12V, +7.5V and -12V supplies Overvoltage and overcurrent shutdown Init/PowerOK circuit The PIC6xxx chips are basically a darlington pair chopper transistor, the flywheel diode and a few resistors in one can. I think I managed to find data for them on the web somwehre. > flash in a special pattern sequence during power-up, and then stay all > on (I actually don't know whether this indicates success or failure). The LEDs monitor 4 supply lines in the unit : 1) +Vdrv (+ve supply to the chopper driver from the startup supply) 2) +5V sense (main +5V output) 3) VPrtSense (Printer supply) 4) -8V (-ve supply for the control circuit) All should be on if the supply is working ccorrectly. > The power supply unit in the monitor has a similar LED indicator, after > finishing power-up, only the rightmost LED is on, which indicates > success (at least that's what the manual says). How is it in your system? The mono monitor doesn't have its own mains supply, it runs off assorted voltages from the CPU box supply. Of coruse it does generate the HV for the CRT from the flyback transformer as usual. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 20:29:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 02:29:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: <007501c5dba7$4d263c60$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> from "Jim Beacon" at Oct 28, 5 11:06:43 am Message-ID: > > I'll wade in with my comments now....... > > Board swapping is a useful method for high reliability systems (I work in I hate to say this, but _random_ boardswapping, which is what I am really complaining about -- that is, when you easter-egg parts until the machine seems to work again -- is the last thing I hope would be used on critical systems. Unless you know what/where the fault is, you can't know you've fixed it IMHO (I've explained the problems many times before). [...] > Now back to our systems! With the above in mind: > > 1. we rarely know the state of any parts we have - a board that has been > un-used for 20 years is quite likely to be faulty! Even worse when you're trying to make one good machine out of 2 defective ones and you haven't a clue as to which boards are good or not. Note that I have no problem at all with 'test rigs', which often are working examples of the machine in question that you can plug defective boards into for testing. A good example of this is for the HP41 calculator. Due to the mechanical construction of that machine (the inter-board connectors are clamped by the case screws), it's impossible to have the machine in a working state where you can probe pins of the chips. HP serice centres had a 'test calculator' which, from the picture in the serviec manual was a mechanically modified HP41. An afternoon in the workshope with a battered 41 produced a workable substitute. > > 2. We are self trained on these systems. If we can narrow a fault down to= > a > board, we can often take it down to the component. Actually, this is a great advantage. A lot of 'training' is based on known or common faults, and if you're not careful the serviceman will get totally lost when faced with something that's not been considered. Since we don't get the manugacturer's traing, we (or at least I) approach such problems from the viewpoint of standard electronic principles and are less likely to get totally confused (well.... that's another story :-)) > > 3. We are lucky to have any spares! > > Looking at a less than vintage system, for the most part, it is difficult= > if > not impossible to go below board level ( I can sympathise with Tony here)= > , > and nigh on impossible to get information on how that board is working, o= > r > even get test equipment that can capture the signals involved (I have a Hence my comment that I don't have a modern PC because I can't afford the test gear I'd need to maintain it. > 100MHz (valve) scope with a 4 trace plug-in, or I can borrow a very old > logic analyser from work). At this point, we are reduced to board swappin= > g > as the only option, though often with little measurement to back it up - = > the > only thing we have over the teenager in PC World, is that at least we hav= > e a > multimeter and can check the power supply voltages........ Hmmm... I'll go a bit further than that. There is a suprising amount you can do on a modern machine with limited test gear intellegently used... > > We are also at the point where PC components are so cheap they are not wo= > rth > repairing - I can buy a LAN card for less than =A310. It costs me more th= > an > that to pay an engineer to replace it, let alone try and repair it. Even = > the > kid in PC world expects =A35 an hour - if you try and charge some one =A3= > 50 for > changing a LAN card, you'll soon be out of business Hmmm.. I have a fairly well-stocked junk box, but it contains components, not boards. Suppose a serial port fails. OK, it's going to take me a little longer to find the defective 1488 (or whatever) rather than just swap the board _but_ it takes less time than me going over to PC-world or whererver to get that replacement board. Of course the fact the PC-world doesn't sell boards for any of the machine I own is a secondary issue :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 27 20:44:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 02:44:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 Power supply schematics or info In-Reply-To: from "Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi" at Oct 28, 5 07:40:04 pm Message-ID: > > > I traced out scheamtics of the PSUs in all my IBMs... > > Great work ! Normally I trace out schematics only when I need to repaire its > and I cannot find any schematics on the net. Oh, I like to understand how things work _while they're still working_. Then if I need to make any measurements on th working device (even something as trivial as determining if a house-coded transsitor is NPN or PNP), I can do it knowing the componnent is good. Of course this is not always possible (e.g. when I'm given a non-working machine). > > > How quickly do you need this? I am wondering if handing a copy to a > > friend at an HPCC meeting in a couple of weeks time would be soon enough. > > No problem for the time, it's a hobby (great but hobby) non work :) OK, pester me a little before the meeting (12th Nov) and I'll take a copy along. > > > Yes, and the control chip is on the 'output' side of the PSU, the drive > > to the bases of the chopper transistors is transformer-coupled. There are > > 3 little daughterboards in there. > > I have take a look at the circuit. It' similar to some off line converters > and other supplies, with control on the secondary side and not in the "live" > part of the switch mode. Yes, there's nothing particularly odd about it. > > > One is an inrush limiter and contains a > > relay that shorts out a power resistor once the smoothing capacitors have > > charged. > > This work, I've tested. The 4 ohm resistor is shorted correctly by the relay OK. > > > Another contains the overcurrent protection circuit, and, IIRC, > > a 12V regulator. The last contains the overvoltage protection circuit > > (the chips on that board are LM339 quad comparators). > > I'm thinking about some protection circuit, because the switching try to > startup, for a time less then half second, and then stop. Now I can try to There are 2 protection circuits. One is a current sensor, there's a current transformer in series with the chopper transformer primary winding. The other is a set of voltage sensors. Whatever you do, don't disable any of the trips. If there really is something wrong, the results would be spectacular!. > check il any protection become active during startup. > The SG3524 il correctly powered and try to fire up the switching > transistors, via the pulse transformer, but only for a short time. Do you get any voltage appearing on any of the outputs? Even for that half-second? -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 28 19:33:29 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 20:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <200510280941410376.0A7589A5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > PC's, minis, or mainframes? PCs (micros) are best used as chocks for the casters of real computers (mainframes). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Oct 28 19:35:07 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 20:35:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <43622E77.8010707@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > I'll see if I can find them when I get back to the UK and scan any > interesting bits in. I am specifically looking for info on the parametron computers of the late 1950s, and the Hitachi AS/6 (may be called a HITAC in a Japanese context) of the late 1970s. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 28 21:02:40 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:02:40 -0700 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200510281902400322.0C771EFB@10.0.0.252> On 10/28/2005 at 8:33 PM William Donzelli wrote: >PCs (micros) are best used as chocks for the casters of real computers >(mainframes). I've never used a mainframe that was on casters. Your mainframes must be smaller than mine... Cheers, Chuck From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Fri Oct 28 21:50:16 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:50:16 -0700 Subject: 1981 London Computer Faire and Homebrew Computer Club stories Message-ID: <000501c5dc33$84091e00$0300a8c0@downstairs2> In September of 1981 while in England I happened upon a computer show. I said I was with the Northwest Computer News and got a press pass. Our local computer club newsletter was a 12 page tabloid size newspaper. I interviewed many vendors and took notes. After a trip to England I talked with the editor and she wrote this story for the October 1981 issue. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MySystem/LondonComputerFaire.htm The Brits on this list can tell me if I got the story right. There will be an Homebrew Computer Club 30th Anniversary Retrospective at VCF 8.0. Here is my web page on my time at the Homebrew Computer Club. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Homebrew/Homebrew.htm Vintage Computer Festival 8.0 http://www.vintage.org/2005/main/ Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Fri Oct 28 08:50:46 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:50:46 -0400 Subject: Interex membership list for sale In-Reply-To: <200510272335430312.084ABD48@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510281400.j9SE0e3X075933@keith.ezwind.net> I know of one case where someone purchased a copy of AutoCAD at a US federal bankrupcy auction with paperwork stating that the sale was free and clear of any previous encumbrance. The slimeball started sell semi-legit Autocads and AutoDesk went after him, with little success! He has a letter from a federal judge saying he owned the software free of all encumbrance and could do what ever he wanted with it. Rumor was they ended up purchasing it for a undiscovered sum. There was a period of a year or two when Autodesk sent Buyers to BK auctions around the country with restraining orders to stop these sort of sales. Shortly after that the guidelines for buying and selling commercial software has been changed. Today encumbered doe not apply to distribution or copyright of commercial software unless it it the copyright holder being liquidated. Some ideas .... And by You, I am referring to every one affected or concerned by this, the more noise the better. Find out who the bidders are and contact their PR departments. Tell them you are aware that they are in the bidding for this database and if they use it to contact you or anyone of a number of contacts in that list, you along with other interested parties will be starting a very public campaign denouncing their third party use of personal information. You may want to spend a few bucks and register a throwaway domain name to scare them with. Host/loose it at a friendly or anonymous ISP and it will be weeks and thousands of dollars in legal legwork for them to find it and shut it down. (contact me if you need a suggestion) Contact the federal judge and express your concerns. Be very nice about it. Point out that it has been reported that he may be concedering the unrestricted sale of personal information to a third party and you want to know how people can opt-out and haver their information removed prior to the sale. You would also like to be notified who the purchaser is so you can prepare a restraining order preventing the use of your and other interested parties contact information. If it happens anyway : If you live in a no-spam state, file a small claims action for each and every contact the purchaser attempts. How many people does it take to have their lawyers running all over the country defending their rights to spam. I have not looked at the bidders list, but someone mentioned it looked like legit companies showing interest. start contacting their CEOs or PR department in protest. Then find whoever ran a user group 5Ml in debt and let then rot in a cell for a while. Just my 2 cents .... later Bob On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:35:43 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 10/28/2005 at 12:16 AM Gil Carrick wrote: >>It would depend on the terms of the sale. Also, the bidders I remember >from >>the article looked like legit users, not mailing list sellers. >IIRC, when it's a bankruptcy sale supervised by the court, any restrictions >previously imposed can be waived by the judge. >Cheers, >Chuck From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Fri Oct 28 21:32:16 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 22:32:16 -0400 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <200510281902400322.0C771EFB@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510290242.j9T2gAiH089466@keith.ezwind.net> Everything big IBM makes has built in casters. Leveling pads are only dropped once it is in place in the computer room. Some times it takes a few people to push and navigate, but even a 370/168 would roll down the hall when the pads were lifted. In the referb center we pushed them off moving vans and moved them all over the warehouse and staging areas. Bob On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:02:40 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 10/28/2005 at 8:33 PM William Donzelli wrote: >>PCs (micros) are best used as chocks for the casters of real computers >>(mainframes). >I've never used a mainframe that was on casters. Your mainframes must be >smaller than mine... >Cheers, >Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Oct 29 03:10:26 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 09:10:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: "Bob Bradlee" "Re: Japanese computers" (Oct 28, 22:32) References: <200510290242.j9T2gAiH089466@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <10510290910.ZM14165@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Oct 28 2005, 22:32, Bob Bradlee wrote: > Everything big IBM makes has built in casters. > Leveling pads are only dropped once it is in place in the computer room. > > Some times it takes a few people to push and navigate, but even a 370/168 would > roll down the hall when the pads were lifted. Ditto for a few Amdahls and Fujitsus I've helped to move. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From news at computercollector.com Sat Oct 29 03:21:28 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 04:21:28 -0400 Subject: OT (sort of) - PowerPoint help for my VCF exhibit Message-ID: <000101c5dc61$c32f69d0$6401a8c0@owneriywbc5o7y> Is anyone here really good with PowerPoint 2003? I could use some help (phone) tomorrow (Saturday) around the early afternoon EST. Email me OFF-LIST PLEASE if you can assist. Thanks!! - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From news at computercollector.com Sat Oct 29 03:29:47 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 04:29:47 -0400 Subject: Disraged ... RE: OT (sort of) - PowerPoint help for my VCF exhibit In-Reply-To: <000101c5dc61$c32f69d0$6401a8c0@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <000201c5dc62$ecad6720$6401a8c0@owneriywbc5o7y> Sorry. Solved the problem right after sending the email. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 4:21 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: OT (sort of) - PowerPoint help for my VCF exhibit Is anyone here really good with PowerPoint 2003? I could use some help (phone) tomorrow (Saturday) around the early afternoon EST. Email me OFF-LIST PLEASE if you can assist. Thanks!! - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Oct 29 04:56:38 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 10:56:38 +0100 Subject: 1981 London Computer Faire and Homebrew Computer Club stories In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:50:16 PDT." <000501c5dc33$84091e00$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <200510290956.KAA04557@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Michael Holley said: > In September of 1981 while in England I happened upon a computer show. I > said I was with the Northwest Computer News and got a press pass. Our local > computer club newsletter was a 12 page tabloid size newspaper. I interviewed > many vendors and took notes. After a trip to England I talked with the > editor and she wrote this story for the October 1981 issue. > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MySystem/LondonComputerFaire.htm I was there... > The Brits on this list can tell me if I got the story right. Pretty much. The database writing program was, I presume, the much hyped "The Last One" which eventually died. I recall a similar system for the TRS-80 and later the IBM PC called IIRC "Creator", I think I've got a copy somewhere. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From RMeenaks at olf.com Sat Oct 29 06:57:15 2005 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 07:57:15 -0400 Subject: Aladdin4D is trying to be opensource Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557CCD031@cpexchange.olf.com> They are still trying to sell it though, but through a community effort. Got $1,300 so far, but want $37,000 more http://www.openaladdin4d.com/ Ram From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 29 07:32:43 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 08:32:43 -0400 Subject: Japanese computers Message-ID: <0IP4002UTG3ZTL10@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Japanese computers > From: Pete Turnbull > Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 09:10:26 +0100 (BST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Oct 28 2005, 22:32, Bob Bradlee wrote: >> Everything big IBM makes has built in casters. >> Leveling pads are only dropped once it is in place in the computer >room. >> >> Some times it takes a few people to push and navigate, but even a >370/168 would >> roll down the hall when the pads were lifted. > >Ditto for a few Amdahls and Fujitsus I've helped to move. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York Save for all the DEC stuff I've encountered. Casters and adjustable pads. Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 29 08:11:24 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:11:24 +0100 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <436374FC.104@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: >>I'll see if I can find them when I get back to the UK and scan any >>interesting bits in. > > > I am specifically looking for info on the parametron computers of the late > 1950s, and the Hitachi AS/6 (may be called a HITAC in a Japanese > context) of the late 1970s. I'm almost certain there was some mention of Parametron, amongst others. Probably way too early for HITAC. I seem to recall an article about a project to build a one mega-word memory unit too, which I suppose was a rather impressive size for then (particularly if you wanted to make it reliable!). Our machines of that era are all around the 4KW mark... I think the magazine must have been aimed at business analysts - which means the level of detail isn't as much as us techies would like (and articles tend to be half-page affairs), but it's still probably worth me recording the computing side of it. Give me a prod in a month if I haven't mentioned it again, as knowing me I'll forget by the time I'm back in the UK :) cheers Jules From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Oct 29 08:50:36 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 08:50:36 -0500 Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: References: <007501c5dba7$4d263c60$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20051029085036.7e245e55.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 02:29:03 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > I'll wade in with my comments now....... > > > > Board swapping is a useful method for high reliability systems (I work in > > I hate to say this, but _random_ boardswapping, which is what I am really > complaining about -- that is, when you easter-egg parts until the machine > seems to work again -- is the last thing I hope would be used on critical > systems. > > Unless you know what/where the fault is, you can't know you've fixed it > IMHO (I've explained the problems many times before). With a proper 'boardswapping guide' and strong documentation and training, the tech can be assured that the fault is isolated to the board in question. Then, as a _team_member_ he passes the faulty board along to someone whose specialty is to isolate it further, down to the component. > > [...] > > > Now back to our systems! With the above in mind: > > > > 1. we rarely know the state of any parts we have - a board that has been > > un-used for 20 years is quite likely to be faulty! > > Even worse when you're trying to make one good machine out of 2 defective > ones and you haven't a clue as to which boards are good or not. > > Note that I have no problem at all with 'test rigs', which often are > working examples of the machine in question that you can plug defective > boards into for testing. A good example of this is for the HP41 > calculator. Due to the mechanical construction of that machine (the > inter-board connectors are clamped by the case screws), it's impossible > to have the machine in a working state where you can probe pins of the > chips. HP serice centres had a 'test calculator' which, from the picture > in the serviec manual was a mechanically modified HP41. An afternoon in > the workshope with a battered 41 produced a workable substitute. > > > > > 2. We are self trained on these systems. If we can narrow a fault down to= > > a > > board, we can often take it down to the component. > > Actually, this is a great advantage. A lot of 'training' is based on > known or common faults, and if you're not careful the serviceman will get > totally lost when faced with something that's not been considered. Since > we don't get the manugacturer's traing, we (or at least I) approach such > problems from the viewpoint of standard electronic principles and are > less likely to get totally confused (well.... that's another story :-)) But the machines you enjoy working on wouldn't have ever come into existence if the company that built them had relied on small teams of artisan technicians who know EVERYTHING about them to service and maintain them. There are layers to the big organizations that come out with sophisticated technologies. There need to be 'grunt' foot soldiers who know how to pull a board from the chassis, replace it with a known good board, and ship the board back to the repair depot where an expert will pinpoint the problem down to a specific chip and send feedback to engineering so the new Rev. J board will have the new U-11 with the corrected PAL equation in it. We aren't a race of supermen where every tech can know everything. > > > > > 3. We are lucky to have any spares! > > > > Looking at a less than vintage system, for the most part, it is difficult= > > if > > not impossible to go below board level ( I can sympathise with Tony here)= > > , > > and nigh on impossible to get information on how that board is working, o= > > r > > even get test equipment that can capture the signals involved (I have a > > Hence my comment that I don't have a modern PC because I can't afford the > test gear I'd need to maintain it. A man is not an island. The fact that you _personally_ cannot tear down and completely rebuild a particular machine should not prevent you from understanding that somebody can, and become a part of the community that somebody exists in. I wear what I consider to be a fairly nice Gruen wristwatch. I don't have the skill and capability of dismantling and servicing it. Not being able to service it doesn't lead me to refuse to wear it. Yes, there are high quality vintage pocket watches I could use instead that I *would* be entirely capable of servicing. > > > 100MHz (valve) scope with a 4 trace plug-in, or I can borrow a very old > > logic analyser from work). At this point, we are reduced to board swappin= > > g > > as the only option, though often with little measurement to back it up - = > > the > > only thing we have over the teenager in PC World, is that at least we hav= > > e a > > multimeter and can check the power supply voltages........ > > Hmmm... I'll go a bit further than that. There is a suprising amount you > can do on a modern machine with limited test gear intellegently used... > > > > > We are also at the point where PC components are so cheap they are not wo= > > rth > > repairing - I can buy a LAN card for less than =A310. It costs me more th= > > an > > that to pay an engineer to replace it, let alone try and repair it. Even = > > the > > kid in PC world expects =A35 an hour - if you try and charge some one =A3= > > 50 for > > changing a LAN card, you'll soon be out of business > > Hmmm.. I have a fairly well-stocked junk box, but it contains components, > not boards. Suppose a serial port fails. OK, it's going to take me a > little longer to find the defective 1488 (or whatever) rather than just > swap the board _but_ it takes less time than me going over to PC-world or > whererver to get that replacement board. > > Of course the fact the PC-world doesn't sell boards for any of the > machine I own is a secondary issue :-) > > -tony -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From vrs at msn.com Sat Oct 29 08:53:31 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 06:53:31 -0700 Subject: Japanese computers References: <200510290242.j9T2gAiH089466@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: From: "Bob Bradlee" > In the referb center we pushed them off moving vans and No wonder there are so few of these machines left ;-)! (I have always heard that the van should be stopped, and the machine lowered slowly :-).) Vince From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 29 10:06:03 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:06:03 -0400 Subject: Japanese computers Message-ID: <0IP400MMCN7HQMN0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Japanese computers > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:11:24 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >William Donzelli wrote: >>>I'll see if I can find them when I get back to the UK and scan any >>>interesting bits in. >> >> >> I am specifically looking for info on the parametron computers of the late >> 1950s, and the Hitachi AS/6 (may be called a HITAC in a Japanese >> context) of the late 1970s. > >I'm almost certain there was some mention of Parametron, amongst others. >Probably way too early for HITAC. I seem to recall an article about a >project to build a one mega-word memory unit too, which I suppose was a >rather impressive size for then (particularly if you wanted to make it >reliable!). Our machines of that era are all around the 4KW mark... 4KW was common but even the TX2 was far larger than that and that was pretty early transistor machine. By mid 60s machine of size were in the 16-64KW range. Keep in mind even the designers of the time understood that large reasonably fast randomly accessable memory was a factor in computational speed and overall perfomance. Of course there was a divergence that appeared during the mid 60s with Cray, LINC and PDP-8 to mention a number of small word (16bits and under) machines appearing with smaller memories and simplified archetectures appealing to the controls and emerging "MiniComputer" market. As to large memories by 1962 it was well understood the real problem was heat, power and consistancy of the magnetics and they were well on the way to a good handle on those. The main enemy was cost. Core was expensive per bit. Allison From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Oct 29 10:12:55 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 16:12:55 +0100 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: References: <200510290242.j9T2gAiH089466@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <43639177.3090803@gjcp.net> vrs wrote: > From: "Bob Bradlee" > >>In the referb center we pushed them off moving vans and > > > No wonder there are so few of these machines left ;-)! > > (I have always heard that the van should be stopped, and > the machine lowered slowly :-).) > > Vince Most IBM retail kit (the stuff they use for EPOS) would survive that quite happily. You might want to reseat some cables and reboot, just like we tell the people in the stores to do. Gordon. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Sat Oct 29 10:15:38 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 10:15:38 -0500 Subject: Chicago-area DECies? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051028141613.0247cf58@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Not quite. I'm actually about 20 mins south of the WI border. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Uban Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 2:17 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Chicago-area DECies? Ok, wouldn't that put you in WI? --tom At 02:10 PM 10/28/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I'm about 40 mins north of downtown Chicago. I looked at your site, I >was the guy with the 11/23 next to you at the VCF Midwest;) > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Tom Uban >Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 11:58 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: RE: Chicago-area DECies? > >Valparaiso, where are you? > >At 08:55 PM 10/27/2005 -0500, you wrote: > > >Really? Whereabouts? > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > >[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > >On Behalf Of Tom Uban > >Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 8:40 PM > >To: Wolfe, Julian ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; > >info-pdp11 at village.org > >Subject: Re: Chicago-area DECies? > > > >I'm in the Chicago area. > > > >--tom > > > >At 04:42 PM 10/27/2005 -0500, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > > > > >Hey, I was just wondering if any of my fellow DECies on this list > > >live in the Chicago area, I know there were quite a few DEC shops > > >around here back in the day. > > >---------- > > >To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message > > >to info-pdp11-request at village.org, with the first line of the > > >message body being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes). From fireflyst at earthlink.net Sat Oct 29 10:16:03 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 10:16:03 -0500 Subject: Chicago-area DECies? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Really! What machines do you own? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Schauer Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 8:42 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Chicago-area DECies? On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > Hey, I was just wondering if any of my fellow DECies on this list live > in the Chicago area, I know there were quite a few DEC shops around > here back in the day. I'd not really consider myself a DEC person (more of a general-interest some-of-everything collector, with a fair amount of DEC gear), but I'm in the far NW suburbs (McHenry Co.) Richard Schauer rws at ripco.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 29 10:14:51 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 16:14:51 +0100 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <0IP400MMCN7HQMN0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IP400MMCN7HQMN0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <436391EB.60107@yahoo.co.uk> Allison wrote: >>Subject: Re: Japanese computers >> From: Jules Richardson >> Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:11:24 +0100 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >>William Donzelli wrote: >> >>>>I'll see if I can find them when I get back to the UK and scan any >>>>interesting bits in. >>> >>> >>>I am specifically looking for info on the parametron computers of the late >>>1950s, and the Hitachi AS/6 (may be called a HITAC in a Japanese >>>context) of the late 1970s. >> >>I'm almost certain there was some mention of Parametron, amongst others. >>Probably way too early for HITAC. I seem to recall an article about a >>project to build a one mega-word memory unit too, which I suppose was a >>rather impressive size for then (particularly if you wanted to make it >>reliable!). Our machines of that era are all around the 4KW mark... > > 4KW was common but even the TX2 was far larger than that and that was > pretty early transistor machine. By mid 60s machine of size were in > the 16-64KW range. Keep in mind even the designers of the time understood > that large reasonably fast randomly accessable memory was a factor in > computational speed and overall perfomance. This was 1MW though, so a significant leap forward. Plus I'm pretty sure it *wasn't* magnetic core either. I can't remember the date range of the magazines we have, but they're somewhere in the range of mid 50's to mid 60's I believe. Presumably, alongside any real applications, it was built to showcase Japanese electronics of the era, and also to provide a testbed into the reliability of whatever technology was used on a large scale. > As to large memories by 1962 it was well understood the real problem was > heat, power and consistancy of the magnetics and they were well on the way > to a good handle on those. The main enemy was cost. Core was expensive > per bit. See above - no magnetics from what I can recall. Cost / heat / power must still have been major considerations though! cheers Jules From dmabry at mich.com Sat Oct 29 10:19:19 2005 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:19:19 -0400 Subject: cloned stuff In-Reply-To: <004501c5dbd3$a0d98700$2101a8c0@finans> References: <20051028013155.51244200DA8C@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <436186CF.9010604@jetnet.ab.ca><001001c5dbb1$bc574f20$2101a8c0@finans> <43620B65.9060107@gmail.com><004201c5dbba$a010c220$2101a8c0@finans> <436224FE.6090709@mich.com> <004501c5dbd3$a0d98700$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <436392F7.2000604@mich.com> Nico de Jong wrote: >-Fra: Dave Mabry > Nico de Jong wrote: > >> Anyone else able to convert it to PDF ? > >> > > >I can convert it to PDF and put it onto a web page for others to download. > > >Let me know if you want my help. > > >Dave > > > People were almost falling over their feet, offering assistance. > > I'll mail it to Dave right away, so it can appear on a web page. > > All the others : thanks for your help > > > Nico > > > > Nico has sent me the files referred to above, and I have converted them to PDF. So I would like to make them available to whoever wants them here: http://www.mich.com/~dmabry/cccp Nico can tell you what exactly they are if you don't already know. Dave From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Oct 29 11:49:38 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:49:38 -0500 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <43639177.3090803@gjcp.net> References: <200510290242.j9T2gAiH089466@keith.ezwind.net> <43639177.3090803@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4363A822.8040403@mdrconsult.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > vrs wrote: > >> From: "Bob Bradlee" >> >>> In the referb center we pushed them off moving vans and >> >> >> >> No wonder there are so few of these machines left ;-)! >> >> (I have always heard that the van should be stopped, and the machine >> lowered slowly :-).) >> >> Vince > > > Most IBM retail kit (the stuff they use for EPOS) would survive that > quite happily. You might want to reseat some cables and reboot, just > like we tell the people in the stores to do. I can attest to that. Pat Finnegan shipped me a 7013-591 last year. It's a deskside POWER RS/6000, roughly the size of a DEC BA123 chassis. It's a reinforced composite frame, so much lighter than a BA123. Patrick padded and boxed it with his usual zeal, but it arrived at my house looking like FedEx towed the carton to my house on a rope. Several of the memory boards were unseated, as were the SCSI and ethernet MCA cards, and the frame itself was cracked. The design of that system prevents any of the boards from bouncing around inside even after coming out of their slots. I reseated everything, checked all the heatsinks and system board connections, put a BandAid on the frame break that's visible, and put it in service. Doc From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Oct 29 11:57:41 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:57:41 -0500 Subject: DEC DSSI thingy Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051029114533.00c1c628@localhost> Hey, what's this thing? Some alpha board? It has Digital logo all over, pen scribbles on the outside of the box saying "Single DSSI controller for 4000's" and the barcodes read "54-22444-01" "B01" and "KA344DFR04" Inside is static bag containing 4 inch by 3.75 inch pc board. The big chip (surface mount) with a zillion pins has a 1"x1" two-fin heat sink. There's another two small chips and what looks like mebbe a 16.000000 mhz clock/osc. Three address jumpers marked "4" "2" "1" Connector on top looks like 96 to 100 pins, shaped like a scsi SCA but longer. Connector on card edge is 50 pin blue with locking ears. Silk screen reads "DSSI Daughter card" Back 'o screws and bracket in the box too. Anybody want it? Any reasonable offer accepted, meaning offer me more than I paid for it (not much) plus shipping and it's yours. [Commentary] War talk by men who have been in a war is always interesting, whereas moon talk by a poet who has not been in the moon is likely to be dull. --Twain --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 13:20:12 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:20:12 +0100 Subject: DEC DSSI thingy In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051029114533.00c1c628@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051029114533.00c1c628@localhost> Message-ID: <26c11a640510291120j1d98be1fw@mail.gmail.com> On 29/10/05, Tom Peters wrote: > Hey, what's this thing? Some alpha board? > > It has Digital logo all over, pen scribbles on the outside of the box > saying "Single DSSI controller for 4000's" and the barcodes read > "54-22444-01" "B01" and "KA344DFR04" > > Inside is static bag containing 4 inch by 3.75 inch pc board. The big chip > (surface mount) with a zillion pins has a 1"x1" two-fin heat sink. There's > another two small chips and what looks like mebbe a 16.000000 mhz > clock/osc. Three address jumpers marked "4" "2" "1" > > Connector on top looks like 96 to 100 pins, shaped like a scsi SCA but longer. > > Connector on card edge is 50 pin blue with locking ears. > > Silk screen reads "DSSI Daughter card" Back 'o screws and bracket in the > box too. > > Anybody want it? Any reasonable offer accepted, meaning offer me more than > I paid for it (not much) plus shipping and it's yours. > > > > [Commentary] War talk by men who have been in a war is always > interesting, whereas moon talk by a poet who has not been in the moon > is likely to be dull. --Twain > --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... > tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) > "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters > 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc > WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 > > > > > According to the part number it's a vax 4000-100 Dual Dssi controller. Dan From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Oct 29 14:04:08 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:04:08 +0100 Subject: 1981 London Computer Faire and Homebrew Computer Club stories In-Reply-To: <000501c5dc33$84091e00$0300a8c0@downstairs2> References: <000501c5dc33$84091e00$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: In message <000501c5dc33$84091e00$0300a8c0 at downstairs2> "Michael Holley" wrote: > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MySystem/LondonComputerFaire.htm > The Brits on this list can tell me if I got the story right. "One company doing well is Acorn which markets a product called Adam". Um, no, COLECO made the Adam. Acorn made the Atom. There was also the Proton (codename for the BBC Micro) and Electron (cutdown BBC Micro). Also, the British currency symbol is a prefix, not a suffix - "?200" is correct, "200?" is not. Just me nitpicking as usual :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Don't like these tags?? Steal your own..... From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 15:21:02 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 16:21:02 -0400 Subject: QBUS MSCP SCSI project: can somebody help me about this bug? Message-ID: It is the "machine check 10" bug. I composed a page at http://wiggum.4amlunch.net/~vax9000/mchkbug.html Thank you. vax, 9000 From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sat Oct 29 15:28:40 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 16:28:40 -0400 Subject: Yet another idea for recovering the data from Series80 tapes Message-ID: <20051029202840.D2C04201000F@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Background: The problem with the old HP 9162-0061 data cartridges is that the magnetic coating peels off from the (transparent) tape causing the machine to stop accessing the tape with an EOT warning. This is actually very good news because it means that the damage is localized (a few mm of tape with scrapped off magnetic coating). BTW here is a picture of a damaged tape: http://www.series80.org/Articles/DamagedTape.jpg My guess is that the magnetic coating gets scrapped off the tape during fast motion (rewind or fast forward), so presumably if you simply advance the tape over the heads at normal read speed (10 ips) the tape will survive for a single pass (there are two tracks on the tape, but since the head is not moving, I assume that you can read both tracks at the same time). Now since we have only one attempt, and we are likely to encounter errors, I do not want to have the Series 80 firmware involved in the process. I would like to simply record the info (via a PC) to a .wav file and then process that file to see if anything can be extracted. Proposal: To do this I would need to manually rewind the tape till the BOT sensor, mount it on the tape drive and advance it past the read/write head till I run out of tape (tape unspools from the supply reel). While this is going on I am recording the output of both heads via the audio in port of my PC sound card (maybe use two separate sound cards to avoid cross talk?). Data extraction rig: 1) audio connection: what kind of set-up would be required to connect the heads to the audio card. From the schematics I see that there are essentially three connections to each head: Head 0: H0, CT0, and HC Head 1: H1, CT1, and HC (HC is common to both heads) But I am not sure what these are used for. 2) running the tape at a constant 10ips. There is a circuit that uses the tachometer wheel to control the tape speed, but again I am not sure how to program (?) the tape controller IC (U1) to move the tape. (I may need to disable the BOT/EOT sensors, but that should not be a problem). I am lucky to have a 9915A as my test bed which allows far easier access to the tape drive mechanism than the HP-85 (and does not have these evil ribbon cables). Unfortunately I do not have a scope, but I can borrow one for a short period if necessary. I have a logic analyzer. ------- Another idea that just came to me as I was re-reading this email, is that I can possibly allow the read/write IC (1820-2418) to do the analog to digital conversion for me, ans simply read a stream of bits (with a time reference). Is this approach better/worse? Perhaps I can do this in parallel with the audio recording. (if the 1820-2418 is only able to sample one track at a time, I can use another 1820-2418 for the second track). Any suggestions are welcome. Best Regards **vp www.series80.org From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Oct 29 15:46:55 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 15:46:55 -0500 Subject: Aladdin4D is trying to be opensource In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557CCD031@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557CCD031@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051029154633.0500b850@mail> At 06:57 AM 10/29/2005, you wrote: >They are still trying to sell it though, but through a community effort. >Got $1,300 so far, but want $37,000 more >http://www.openaladdin4d.com/ Yes, you mentioned this in August 2004, too. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 29 18:09:56 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 16:09:56 -0700 Subject: QBUS MSCP SCSI project: can somebody help me about this bug? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:21 PM -0400 10/29/05, 9000 VAX wrote: >It is the "machine check 10" bug. I composed a page at >http://wiggum.4amlunch.net/~vax9000/mchkbug.html No idea on the problem you're having with the SCSI controller, however, I think I can answer your VMS question. Since all you're wanting to do is test your hardware, you should be able to simply load VMS, and not actually need any License PAK's. It's only if you wanted to actually use the machine to do something that you would need the Licenses. Of course I'm not a Lawyer, and by doing this you might be violating something, I'm simply looking at it from the technical side of things. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From benoit.bourgier at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 07:40:40 2005 From: benoit.bourgier at gmail.com (Benoit bourgier) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:40:40 +0200 Subject: Zenith Z171 Message-ID: <6a13dd490510290540j1b3f72d7r@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I saw that you got a zenith Z170, well, i've got a Zenith Z171, and i want to sell it, do you know what is the price for this kind of device? Well, if you can tell me a price, that will be greatfull... Thanks in advance. Bye Ben From terry at terryking.us Sat Oct 29 10:53:51 2005 From: terry at terryking.us (Terry King) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 16:53:51 +0100 Subject: IBM PX and XT Power supplies Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20051029165011.01071a10@mail.terryking.us> IBM never released the schematics, even to internal IBM sites wanting them. Early on, we learned that there was a optoisolator that often died. There WERE aftermarket schematics available for about $40 in the mid-80's; I don't think I have any?? A friend still at IBM may.. I'll ask when I see him. The XT versions were a lot more reliable; I have 8 XT's that get turned on only once or twice a year, now, and I've never lost a power supply or system board. Regards, Terry King ...On The Mediterranean in Carthage, Tunisia terry at terryking.us From terry at terryking.us Sat Oct 29 11:00:14 2005 From: terry at terryking.us (Terry King) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:00:14 +0100 Subject: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? In-Reply-To: <200510290402.j9T42txT006009@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20051029165816.0492a8c0@mail.terryking.us> John, Forrest Mims wrote that manual, as I recall. He hangs out sometimes at sci.electronics.design and in any case that would be a good place to ask... If you are still striking out when I get back next week, I'll look at copying mine.... Regards, Terry King ...On The Mediterranean in Carthage, Tunisia terry at terryking.us From terry at terryking.us Sat Oct 29 11:08:03 2005 From: terry at terryking.us (Terry King) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:08:03 +0100 Subject: ASR32 ?? In-Reply-To: <200510291129.j9TBTdX6009474@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20051029170714.04912ca0@mail.terryking.us> At 06:29 AM 10/29/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Is anyone interested in a Teletype ASR32 with paper and paper tape? Really a 32 not 33?? 32 is 5-bit Baudot, as I recall. Regards, Terry King ...On The Mediterranean in Carthage, Tunisia terry at terryking.us From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Sat Oct 29 11:53:51 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 12:53:51 -0400 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200510291703.j9TH3jqT001721@keith.ezwind.net> On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 06:53:31 -0700, vrs wrote: >From: "Bob Bradlee" >> In the referb center we pushed them off moving vans and >No wonder there are so few of these machines left ;-)! >(I have always heard that the van should be stopped, and >the machine lowered slowly :-).) > Vince Takes the fun out of it :) We had a 158 come in one day, we had one of those back into the building and down a hill kind of loading docks. While waiting for his turn, one driver began "preping to unload" in the lot. When it came his turn he came in a bit fast and a MG came off the back of the truck when he hit the stops hard. This was before the dock hand could put the flat ramp in place to cover over the "gap" between truck and dock. I answered a cattle call to help getting it back on a smooth surface where the casters acted as wheels and not as keyways. There was a story where one of the other FE's dropped an MG over the edge into an open floor section during installation. I was assured that it was not fun to lift it back up to floor level. Bob From f5inl at wanadoo.fr Sat Oct 29 13:22:11 2005 From: f5inl at wanadoo.fr (Frederic BOSSU) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:22:11 +0200 Subject: IBM 5285 Message-ID: Dear Alan, As this topic is quite old, I 'm not sure you will really see my answer. Anyway, if you're still interested in this machine, I can give you help, as I'm the owner of a complete IBM 5280 system (ie IBM 5288 + two IBM 5285 + printer IBM 5222)with full disk systems and maintenance documentation. Let me first inform you that neither 5285 (nor 5281) are albe to work alone. When you start them up, they try to deal with the master controller unit (MCU) IBM 5288, on which is implemented the system. If it can't dialog with the 5288, you'll get only three lines of characters on the screen, which are a kind of autotest. As far as the floppy drives are concerned, it's quite the same. Indeed, these floppy are not part of the 5285 machine, but are extensions of the MCU 5288 on your local working station. So, when you insert a disk inside, it's absolutely normal that you don't have any answer on your display, as once again the 5285 is trying to send the data read on the floppy diskette to the 5288 system. Owning a 5285 / 5281 alone has no really interest, as it's neither a dumb terminal and won't be useful. But it's a beautiful old machine. All this system called 5280 is dated from 1981. Mine has been working beetween 1982 - 1987 night and day. Now I only make it work when a friend of mine want's to see it working, as it's really worth seeing. Unfortunately, I've broken a keyboard and noy I've only one working station instead of two, and my printer has no more ink ribbon :-( Best regards. Fred (from southern France ) From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 18:24:46 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:24:46 -0400 Subject: SIMH on PPC/Mac OS X ~ Gentoo Portage In-Reply-To: <000501c5dc33$84091e00$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: After successfully compiling and running SIMH under Mac OS X using gentoo's portage system for Mac OS X, I've filed a bug report for it, and it's now listed as "~ppc-macos" in portage. That pretty much means it's now listed under the mac os x package set, is known to compile on ppc, but there's only a few reports so it's marked unstable :) Just thought I'd throw this out here, in case anyone really did care! From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 18:46:13 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:46:13 -0400 Subject: QBUS MSCP SCSI project: can somebody help me about this bug? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/29/05, Zane H. Healy wrote: > No idea on the problem you're having with the SCSI controller, > however, I think I can answer your VMS question. Since all you're > wanting to do is test your hardware, you should be able to simply > load VMS, and not actually need any License PAK's. It's only if you > wanted to actually use the machine to do something that you would > need the Licenses. > > Of course I'm not a Lawyer, and by doing this you might be violating > something, I'm simply looking at it from the technical side of things. Thank you! Please forget about the VMS part. I have got an solution. vax, 9000 > > Zane From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 18:53:22 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:53:22 -0400 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43640B72.3050601@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >>PC's, minis, or mainframes? > > > PCs (micros) are best used as chocks for the casters of real computers > (mainframes). Tell it on the Mountain, brother! Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 18:54:46 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:54:46 -0400 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <200510281902400322.0C771EFB@10.0.0.252> References: <200510281902400322.0C771EFB@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43640BC6.8030707@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/28/2005 at 8:33 PM William Donzelli wrote: > > >>PCs (micros) are best used as chocks for the casters of real computers >>(mainframes). > > > I've never used a mainframe that was on casters. Your mainframes must be > smaller than mine... The CPU racks of my ES/9021 are on casters and they are quite large and water-cooled. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 18:57:01 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:57:01 -0400 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <0IP4002UTG3ZTL10@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IP4002UTG3ZTL10@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43640C4D.1020304@gmail.com> Allison wrote: >>>Everything big IBM makes has built in casters. >>>Leveling pads are only dropped once it is in place in the computer >> >>room. >> >>>Some times it takes a few people to push and navigate, but even a >> >>370/168 would >> >>>roll down the hall when the pads were lifted. >> >>Ditto for a few Amdahls and Fujitsus I've helped to move. >> >>-- >>Pete Peter Turnbull >> Network Manager >> University of York > > > Save for all the DEC stuff I've encountered. Casters and adjustable pads. A bunch of my DEC stuff has casters and pads. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 29 19:05:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 01:05:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Yet another idea for recovering the data from Series80 tapes In-Reply-To: <20051029202840.D2C04201000F@mail.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Oct 29, 5 04:28:40 pm Message-ID: > > Background: > > The problem with the old HP 9162-0061 data cartridges is that the > magnetic coating peels off from the (transparent) tape causing the > machine to stop accessing the tape with an EOT warning. This is > actually very good news because it means that the damage is localized > (a few mm of tape with scrapped off magnetic coating). > > BTW here is a picture of a damaged tape: > http://www.series80.org/Articles/DamagedTape.jpg > > My guess is that the magnetic coating gets scrapped off the tape > during fast motion (rewind or fast forward), so presumably if you Hmmm. I thought it was where the taps stuch to itself, or to the drive belt, when the catridge was stored. In which case your idea might not help much. > simply advance the tape over the heads at normal read speed (10 ips) > the tape will survive for a single pass (there are two tracks on the > tape, but since the head is not moving, I assume that you can read > both tracks at the same time). I would think so. The head is not moved between tracks, it's electrically switched. > > Now since we have only one attempt, and we are likely to encounter errors, > I do not want to have the Series 80 firmware involved in the process. > I would like to simply record the info (via a PC) to a .wav file and then > process that file to see if anything can be extracted. > > Proposal: > > To do this I would need to manually rewind the tape till the BOT sensor, > mount it on the tape drive and advance it past the read/write head > till I run out of tape (tape unspools from the supply reel). > > While this is going on I am recording the output of both heads via the > audio in port of my PC sound card (maybe use two separate sound cards to > avoid cross talk?). I would think one sound card (with 2 input channels) would be enough. I think cross talk would be pretty easy to eliminate in software (if it's a problem at all). > > Data extraction rig: > > 1) audio connection: what kind of set-up would be required to connect the > heads to the audio card. From the schematics I see that there are essentially > three connections to each head: > Head 0: H0, CT0, and HC > Head 1: H1, CT1, and HC (HC is common to both heads) > But I am not sure what these are used for. I would assume 'Hn' was the top end of each winding, 'CTn' was a centre tap and 'HC' was head common. What I would do (and alas it needs a 'scope would be to remove the R/W chip and connect the differential inputs of the 'scope to HC and H0 (say). Run a recorded, but unimportant 'scratch tape' through the thing and see what signal you get. Then design a differential amplifier to bring it up to the sound card input levels. The preamp schematic from the 9815/9825 tape drive might be a start. Does anybody know if those drives are tape and track compatible with the 85 drive? In other words, would the 2 track head of a 9815 correctly read the tracks on an 85 tape (yes, I know the controllers are very different). > > 2) running the tape at a constant 10ips. There is a circuit that uses > the tachometer wheel to control the tape speed, but again I am not sure > how to program (?) the tape controller IC (U1) to move the tape. > (I may need to disable the BOT/EOT sensors, but that should not be a > problem). Could you not design your own motor controller? It's 'just' a matter of controlling the motor voltage to get the right frequency output from the tacho sensor. What I would do, actually, is extract the drive from a 'junk' 85 (or a 9815 or something if that drive is compatible) and use virtually none of the HP electronics. Make my own motor controller and head amplifiers. I would not want undocumented custom chips around. You might be able to use the speed control circuit from the 9825, that is all standard chips > > I am lucky to have a 9915A as my test bed which allows far easier access to > the tape drive mechanism than the HP-85 (and does not have these evil > ribbon cables). Incidentally, there are some interesting manuals for the 9915 (and other HP desktops) on http://www.hpmuseum.net . Even an operating/service manual for the _keyboard_. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 29 18:43:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 00:43:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: <20051029085036.7e245e55.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Oct 29, 5 08:50:36 am Message-ID: > > > > Unless you know what/where the fault is, you can't know you've fixed it > > IMHO (I've explained the problems many times before). > > With a proper 'boardswapping guide' and strong documentation and > training, the tech can be assured that the fault is isolated to the > board in question. Then, as a _team_member_ he passes the faulty board I fail to see how, at least without doing further tests and measurements (some of which can be quite complicated). I've yet to see a system where symptoms alone with determine the faulty module with 100% reliability. > There need to be 'grunt' foot soldiers who know how to pull a board > from the chassis, replace it with a known good board, and ship the board > back to the repair depot where an expert will pinpoint the problem down > to a specific chip and send feedback to engineering so the new Rev. J You know as well as I do that it doesn't work that way for most, if not all, of the machines that _we_ work with, and probably never has. The sort of failed servoids I've met just look at the symptoms, pull a part, put a new one in, and hope the problem is cured. AFAIK the defective part is _not_ analysed futher. When was the last time you met a droid in a PC shop who sent the defective board back to %far-eastern-country? > > Hence my comment that I don't have a modern PC because I can't afford the > > test gear I'd need to maintain it. > > A man is not an island. The fact that you _personally_ cannot tear > down and completely rebuild a particular machine should not prevent you Well, actually, I do refuse to use anything I don't properly understand, but that is another issue. > from understanding that somebody can, and become a part of the community > that somebody exists in. OK, I'll go further. Not only do I not have the skills, documentation or test gear to maintain a modern PC properly, I don't know anybody else who can, or how to find such a person. And I am not going to trust my data and my (in)sanity to some idiot who can't understand why a logic analyser or 'scope might even be useful > > I wear what I consider to be a fairly nice Gruen wristwatch. I don't > have the skill and capability of dismantling and servicing it. Not > being able to service it doesn't lead me to refuse to wear it. Yes, > there are high quality vintage pocket watches I could use instead that I > *would* be entirely capable of servicing. Actually I am trying to think of anything I own and depend on (or even use actively) that I am not capable of repairing.... I'd have problems with a wristwatch, but pocket watches and clocks wouldn't be a problem. Nor, for example, are real cameras. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 29 18:49:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 00:49:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM PX and XT Power supplies In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20051029165011.01071a10@mail.terryking.us> from "Terry King" at Oct 29, 5 04:53:51 pm Message-ID: > > IBM never released the schematics, even to internal IBM sites wanting them. Maybe because IBM never had them (after all, the PSUs were not designed by IBM), or because there were so many versions. As an aside, the TRS80 M3 and M4 used Astec PSU boards. ASTEC did not normally release schematics, but Radio Shack sold techncial manuals for these machines. The PSU schematic in there was clearly reverse-engineered by Radio Shack, and is almost hilarious. It bears little relation to any of the PSUs I've seen in these machines (there are at least 2, 115V only and 115/230V), or indeed to any working SMPSU. > > Early on, we learned that there was a optoisolator that often died. > > There WERE aftermarket schematics available for about $40 in the mid-80's; > I don't > think I have any?? A friend still at IBM may.. I'll ask when I see him. The PC, PC/XT and PortablePC supplies are all very similar designs. No, you can't intercahnge them, but if you had a schematic for one, you could find your way round any of them I've traced out schecmatics for the ones in my machines. I've offered to get the PortablePC one scanned. Do you want me to see if I can get the others done sometime. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 19:10:49 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:10:49 -0400 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <4363A822.8040403@mdrconsult.com> References: <200510290242.j9T2gAiH089466@keith.ezwind.net> <43639177.3090803@gjcp.net> <4363A822.8040403@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43640F89.7080302@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > I can attest to that. Pat Finnegan shipped me a 7013-591 last year. > It's a deskside POWER RS/6000, roughly the size of a DEC BA123 > chassis. It's a reinforced composite frame, so much lighter than a BA123. That's a *very* nice machine. That's the IBM plastic which is stronger than steel. 8-) > Patrick padded and boxed it with his usual zeal, but it arrived at my > house looking like FedEx towed the carton to my house on a rope. Several > of the memory boards were unseated, as were the SCSI and ethernet MCA > cards, and the frame itself was cracked. Time for someone to be drawn and quartered in effigy. > The design of that system prevents any of the boards from bouncing > around inside even after coming out of their slots. I reseated > everything, checked all the heatsinks and system board connections, put > a BandAid on the frame break that's visible, and put it in service. Excellent! Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 19:11:26 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:11:26 -0400 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <200510291703.j9TH3jqT001721@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510291703.j9TH3jqT001721@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <43640FAE.9060102@gmail.com> Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 06:53:31 -0700, vrs wrote: > > >>From: "Bob Bradlee" >> >>>In the referb center we pushed them off moving vans and > > >>No wonder there are so few of these machines left ;-)! > > >>(I have always heard that the van should be stopped, and >>the machine lowered slowly :-).) > > >> Vince > > > Takes the fun out of it :) > > We had a 158 come in one day, we had one of those back into > the building and down a hill kind of loading docks. > While waiting for his turn, one driver began "preping to unload" > in the lot. When it came his turn he came in a bit fast and a MG > came off the back of the truck when he hit the stops hard. > This was before the dock hand could put the flat ramp in place > to cover over the "gap" between truck and dock. > I answered a cattle call to help getting it back on a smooth surface > where the casters acted as wheels and not as keyways. > > There was a story where one of the other FE's dropped an MG > over the edge into an open floor section during installation. > I was assured that it was not fun to lift it back up to floor level. Where were you working at the time? Peace... Sridhar From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 29 19:53:38 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <43640BC6.8030707@gmail.com> Message-ID: > The CPU racks of my ES/9021 are on casters and they are quite large and > water-cooled. Which model do you have? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 29 20:08:00 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 18:08:00 -0700 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <43640B72.3050601@gmail.com> References: <43640B72.3050601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510291808000550.0216D76B@10.0.0.252> On 10/29/2005 at 7:53 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Tell it on the Mountain, brother! > >Peace... Sridhar There IS an aspect of Japanese micros that I dabbled in for a while back in the early 80's. That dealt with the problem of supporting the Kanji character set on 8 bit systems. Initially, the Japanese made do with the Katakana alphabet, which is a simplified phonetic system and not ideographic as is Kanji. However, Katakana (and Hiragana) characters are usually used only for foreign words in Japanese and are not considered the normal way to write. (As an interesting aside, Hiragana is generally held to have been developed by women, where Katakana being more angular is held to have been developed by men.) We tend to take public literacy for granted here in the West, but in Japan, public education (at least as far as teaching Kanji reading and writing) didn't begin until after WW II. There are two problems to overcome in dealing with the several (7,000-9,000) Kanji used in everyday literate Japanese. The first is character entry and the second is character display. Obviously a 7,000 key keyboard is out of the question. The most successful scheme was marketed by NEC in the 1970s and involves building up a character from its basic elements with the computer offering choices on an on-screen menu as alternatives are narrowed. The problem of display (using 1970's technology) is more thorny. Kanji symbols are quite complex and detailed, requiring very good video displays and character generation. Printing presents its own issues. While the US and Europe was quite happy with 9-pin dot matrix printheads, the Japanese of necessity introduced 18 and 22 wire printheads to deal with the problem of Kanji character generation. Daisy-wheel technology was clearly not an alternative! While we in the western world take for granted "universal" character encoding such as ASCII and EBCDIC, there were a number of competing systems in Japanese, such as DBCS and Shift-JIS. I've still got some product brochures and notes in my files that I assembled back in the early PC days on how the really tough problem of handling Japanese writing was handled. All of this should be taken with the grain of salt that my very fuzzy recollection deserves! Cheers, Chuck From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 29 20:12:51 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:12:51 -0400 Subject: Zenith 171 In-Reply-To: <200510300012.j9U0Clu4020074@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000801c5dcef$0ce29ec0$6401a8c0@barry> Re: "I saw that you got a zenith Z170, well, i've got a Zenith Z171, and i want to sell it, do you know what is the price for this kind of device?" The Zenith 170 is a generic name for the 171 ... two different names for the same computer. These show up on E-Bay fairly often, in various conditions. They don't go for very much, I'd say that $19 or so is a typical price, sometimes less, sometimes a bit more. The shipping cost will often exceed the actual selling price. Do an E-Bay search on complete auctions, although many won't list the model number (either 170 or 172) in the auction title. From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Oct 29 20:15:08 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 02:15:08 +0100 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1130634908.28811.0.camel@fortran> On Fri, 2005-10-28 at 20:33 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > PC's, minis, or mainframes? > > PCs (micros) are best used as chocks for the casters of real computers > (mainframes). I usually invert Steve Jobs' saying... "Never trust a computer you can pick up." :) -toresbe From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 20:46:18 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:46:18 -0400 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <436425EA.1060804@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >>The CPU racks of my ES/9021 are on casters and they are quite large and >>water-cooled. > > > Which model do you have? 9021-580. Peace... Sridhar From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 29 21:38:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:38:47 Subject: Yet another idea for recovering the data from Series80 tapes In-Reply-To: <20051029202840.D2C04201000F@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051029213847.11c79926@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:28 PM 10/29/05 -0400, you wrote: >Background: > >The problem with the old HP 9162-0061 data cartridges is that the >magnetic coating peels off from the (transparent) tape causing the >machine to stop accessing the tape with an EOT warning. This is >actually very good news because it means that the damage is localized >(a few mm of tape with scrapped off magnetic coating). > >BTW here is a picture of a damaged tape: > http://www.series80.org/Articles/DamagedTape.jpg > >My guess is that the magnetic coating gets scrapped off the tape >during fast motion (rewind or fast forward), so presumably if you >simply advance the tape over the heads at normal read speed (10 ips) >the tape will survive for a single pass (there are two tracks on the >tape, but since the head is not moving, I assume that you can read >both tracks at the same time). > >Now since we have only one attempt, and we are likely to encounter errors, >I do not want to have the Series 80 firmware involved in the process. >I would like to simply record the info (via a PC) to a .wav file and then >process that file to see if anything can be extracted. > >Proposal: > >To do this I would need to manually rewind the tape till the BOT sensor, >mount it on the tape drive and advance it past the read/write head >till I run out of tape (tape unspools from the supply reel). > >While this is going on I am recording the output of both heads via the >audio in port of my PC sound card (maybe use two separate sound cards to >avoid cross talk?). > >Data extraction rig: > >1) audio connection: what kind of set-up would be required to connect the >heads to the audio card. From the schematics I see that there are essentially >three connections to each head: > Head 0: H0, CT0, and HC > Head 1: H1, CT1, and HC (HC is common to both heads) >But I am not sure what these are used for. > >2) running the tape at a constant 10ips. There is a circuit that uses >the tachometer wheel to control the tape speed, but again I am not sure >how to program (?) the tape controller IC (U1) to move the tape. >(I may need to disable the BOT/EOT sensors, but that should not be a >problem). > >I am lucky to have a 9915A as my test bed which allows far easier access to >the tape drive mechanism than the HP-85 (and does not have these evil >ribbon cables). > >Unfortunately I do not have a scope, but I can borrow one for a short >period if necessary. I have a logic analyzer. > >------- > >Another idea that just came to me as I was re-reading this email, is that >I can possibly allow the read/write IC (1820-2418) to do the analog to >digital conversion for me, ans simply read a stream of bits (with a time >reference). Is this approach better/worse? Perhaps I can do this in parallel >with the audio recording. (if the 1820-2418 is only able to sample one >track at a time, I can use another 1820-2418 for the second track). > >Any suggestions are welcome. Both ideas sound do-able to me. It might also be a good way to find out how HP "protect"s the program tapes and possibly duplicate them. Where are you located? I have a couple of spare scopes and I might be presauded to loan you one. But I'll have to do some checking to be sure that that these specific models can survive shipping. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 29 22:31:15 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:31:15 Subject: Yet another idea for recovering the data from Series80 tapes In-Reply-To: References: <20051029202840.D2C04201000F@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051029223115.11c7d5b8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:05 AM 10/30/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Background: >> >> The problem with the old HP 9162-0061 data cartridges is that the >> magnetic coating peels off from the (transparent) tape causing the >> machine to stop accessing the tape with an EOT warning. This is >> actually very good news because it means that the damage is localized >> (a few mm of tape with scrapped off magnetic coating). >> >> BTW here is a picture of a damaged tape: >> http://www.series80.org/Articles/DamagedTape.jpg >> >> My guess is that the magnetic coating gets scrapped off the tape >> during fast motion (rewind or fast forward), so presumably if you > >Hmmm. I thought it was where the taps stuch to itself, That does seem to be the case. At least in the ones that I've looked at prior to using them. Someone should unwind a few of the tapes and check them to see if that seems to be the case. If they appear good then run them through a tape drive and see if the media stays on. FWIW I tested about a dozen tapes a few years ago and about 4 failed on the first pass, about that many failed in the next few days and only one lasted a week. IIRC It died about 10 or 12 days. It's been a while and I don't remember what the failure modes were but I think it must have been media failure. If so they they probably have both stuck-tape failures and shedding-media failures. or to the drive >belt, when the catridge was stored. In which case your idea might not >help much. > >> simply advance the tape over the heads at normal read speed (10 ips) >> the tape will survive for a single pass (there are two tracks on the >> tape, but since the head is not moving, I assume that you can read >> both tracks at the same time). > >I would think so. The head is not moved between tracks, it's electrically >switched. > >> >> Now since we have only one attempt, and we are likely to encounter errors, >> I do not want to have the Series 80 firmware involved in the process. >> I would like to simply record the info (via a PC) to a .wav file and then >> process that file to see if anything can be extracted. >> >> Proposal: >> >> To do this I would need to manually rewind the tape till the BOT sensor, >> mount it on the tape drive and advance it past the read/write head >> till I run out of tape (tape unspools from the supply reel). >> >> While this is going on I am recording the output of both heads via the >> audio in port of my PC sound card (maybe use two separate sound cards to >> avoid cross talk?). > >I would think one sound card (with 2 input channels) would be enough. I >think cross talk would be pretty easy to eliminate in software (if it's a >problem at all). > >> >> Data extraction rig: >> >> 1) audio connection: what kind of set-up would be required to connect the >> heads to the audio card. From the schematics I see that there are essentially >> three connections to each head: >> Head 0: H0, CT0, and HC >> Head 1: H1, CT1, and HC (HC is common to both heads) >> But I am not sure what these are used for. > >I would assume 'Hn' was the top end of each winding, 'CTn' was a centre >tap and 'HC' was head common. > >What I would do (and alas it needs a 'scope would be to remove the R/W >chip and connect the differential inputs of the 'scope to HC and H0 >(say). Run a recorded, but unimportant 'scratch tape' through the thing >and see what signal you get. Then design a differential amplifier to >bring it up to the sound card input levels. > >The preamp schematic from the 9815/9825 tape drive might be a start. Does >anybody know if those drives are tape and track compatible with the 85 >drive? They DO use the same tape so they must be compatible. I don't know about the track spacing but I would think they would be the same. It should be easy enough to check with some MagnaSee. I THINK that's the name of the liquid that you put on mag tapes/cards to see the magnetic tracks. I have a can of it around here somewhere but no idea where it's at at the moment. In other words, would the 2 track head of a 9815 correctly read >the tracks on an 85 tape (yes, I know the controllers are very different). > >> >> 2) running the tape at a constant 10ips. There is a circuit that uses >> the tachometer wheel to control the tape speed, but again I am not sure >> how to program (?) the tape controller IC (U1) to move the tape. >> (I may need to disable the BOT/EOT sensors, but that should not be a >> problem). > >Could you not design your own motor controller? It's 'just' a matter of >controlling the motor voltage to get the right frequency output from the >tacho sensor. It's a servo loop so I don't think it would be that easy. You'd have to have the correct response times and all that to make it work properly. And remember that these motors have both a high spped and normal reading speed as well as reverse so your controller would to be capable of handling all that. IIRC there's an article about that in one of the HP Journals. IIRC it wasn't easy to make the thing work the way that it does. > >What I would do, actually, is extract the drive from a 'junk' 85 (or a Actually that sounds like a GOOD idea. Ratty looking HP 85s are readily available. I'd take one of those and take out the tape drive ribbon cable and replace it with real wires then add some test points to it and maybe cut some sections out of the case to allow access to it's inards and make a test platform out of it. Joe >9815 or something if that drive is compatible) and use virtually none of >the HP electronics. Make my own motor controller and head amplifiers. I >would not want undocumented custom chips around. You might be able to use >the speed control circuit from the 9825, that is all standard chips > > >> >> I am lucky to have a 9915A as my test bed which allows far easier access to >> the tape drive mechanism than the HP-85 (and does not have these evil >> ribbon cables). > >Incidentally, there are some interesting manuals for the 9915 (and other >HP desktops) on http://www.hpmuseum.net . Even an operating/service >manual for the _keyboard_. > > >-tony > > From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Oct 29 21:41:57 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:41:57 -0500 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <436432F5.3020705@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > Of course therre's docuemntation. IBM sold a proper TechRef for this > machine with schematics and BIOS source. I know that -- I don't own a copy and can't seem to find one on ebay or otherwise (I do look for these things before I ask questions, you know :-) Thanks for the info. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/150 - Release Date: 10/27/2005 From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Oct 29 21:54:05 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:54:05 -0500 Subject: RS/6000; Was Re: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <43640F89.7080302@gmail.com> References: <200510290242.j9T2gAiH089466@keith.ezwind.net> <43639177.3090803@gjcp.net> <4363A822.8040403@mdrconsult.com> <43640F89.7080302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <436435CD.3000804@mdrconsult.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: > >> I can attest to that. Pat Finnegan shipped me a 7013-591 last year. >> It's a deskside POWER RS/6000, roughly the size of a DEC BA123 >> chassis. It's a reinforced composite frame, so much lighter than a >> BA123. > > > That's a *very* nice machine. That's the IBM plastic which is stronger > than steel. 8-) Yes, and by the well-known principle of "like attracts like", I now have 2 of them. The second has 2GB RAM, FWD SCSI, and 10/100 ethernet. It and an F40 cost me $50. >> Patrick padded and boxed it with his usual zeal, but it arrived at >> my house looking like FedEx towed the carton to my house on a rope. >> Several of the memory boards were unseated, as were the SCSI and >> ethernet MCA cards, and the frame itself was cracked. > > > Time for someone to be drawn and quartered in effigy. Patrick shipped it signature required. It was signed for by "P. Orch". Even the FedEx claims department were not amused. I never collected on the damage (because they insisted I let them pick it up "for instection" and that Pat file the claim, and I wasn't about to give them another chance to break it), but they did make the driver come apologize in person for leaving it without a signature. >> The design of that system prevents any of the boards from bouncing >> around inside even after coming out of their slots. I reseated >> everything, checked all the heatsinks and system board connections, >> put a BandAid on the frame break that's visible, and put it in service. > > > Excellent! It's awfully hard to kill an RS/6000. Doc From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Oct 30 00:42:56 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 06:42:56 +0100 Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <058E0C58-4908-11DA-971E-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Am zondag, 30.10.05, um 01:43 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Tony Duell: > > Actually I am trying to think of anything I own and depend on (or even > use actively) that I am not capable of repairing.... Your PC's harddisk, i.e. the thing that contains the most precious of your computer : the data. You might be able to repair a certain class of failures with these drives, but in most cases you will have to replace it. Also the same is true for the computer CPU's. If it breaks, you replace it . You do not want a FIB machine so you had a chance to repair the IC itself. Most of us view CPU and HD as basic building blocks of a computer. If you take the same viewpoint on a PC's motherboard, then there is no (technical) reason why a more modern PC is out of the question. If you don't want another PC because you lack space, now there is something I can really understand ! Best regards, Jos From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Sat Oct 29 19:31:11 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:31:11 -0400 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <43640FAE.9060102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510300041.j9U0fHVn008690@keith.ezwind.net> On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:11:26 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Bob Bradlee wrote: >> On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 06:53:31 -0700, vrs wrote: >> >> >>>From: "Bob Bradlee" >>> >>>>In the referb center we pushed them off moving vans and >> >> >>>No wonder there are so few of these machines left ;-)! >> >> >>>(I have always heard that the van should be stopped, and >>>the machine lowered slowly :-).) >> >> >>> Vince >> >> >> Takes the fun out of it :) >> >> We had a 158 come in one day, we had one of those back into >> the building and down a hill kind of loading docks. >> While waiting for his turn, one driver began "preping to unload" >> in the lot. When it came his turn he came in a bit fast and a MG >> came off the back of the truck when he hit the stops hard. >> This was before the dock hand could put the flat ramp in place >> to cover over the "gap" between truck and dock. >> I answered a cattle call to help getting it back on a smooth surface >> where the casters acted as wheels and not as keyways. >> >> There was a story where one of the other FE's dropped an MG >> over the edge into an open floor section during installation. >> I was assured that it was not fun to lift it back up to floor level. >Where were you working at the time? >Peace... Sridhar From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Sat Oct 29 19:44:02 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:44:02 -0400 Subject: Japanese computers Message-ID: <200510300054.j9U0s8i9008852@keith.ezwind.net> On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:31:11 -0400, Bob Bradlee wrote: >>Where were you working at the time? >>Peace... Sridhar Circle aka CCS in Schaumburg Il. 1978-1980 We did Comdisco's referb and feature work before they set up their own shop. Have scope will travel. Bob From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sun Oct 30 01:16:03 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 02:16:03 -0500 Subject: Yet another idea for recovering the data from Series80 tapes Message-ID: <20051030071603.0A166201043B@mail.cs.drexel.edu> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:... > Hmmm. I thought it was where the taps stuch to itself, or to the drive > belt, when the catridge was stored. In which case your idea might not > help much. Aha! There goes my original hypothesis. Well, that is relatively easy to check. I took apart two old tapes and found the following: Assuming that the tapes were rewound before storage, there are two stretches of weakened magnetic coating on both tapes I looked at; the first was short while the second longer. These correspond to the length of tape in contact with the drive belt In http://www.series80.org/Articles/tape-cartridge-lr.gif you can see that on the take up reel (left) there is less tape in contact with the drive tensioning belt, while on the right hand reel (which has most of the tape and hence a longer radius) more tape comes in contact with the belt. Looking closely at the belt, I can see remnants of tape oxide stuck on it (in fact its stuck so well, I could not remove it). So how come we get an EOT error when using these tapes? The tape has tiny holes near the beginning and end signifying BOT and EOT. (BOT) (EOT) +-------------------------- .... --------------------------------------+ | | | o o o o o | | | +-------------------------- .... --------------------------------------+ I assume that the first hole signifies the end of the data region and then if the drive sees one hole its EOT, while if it sees two holes (prob. more than one) its BOT. So when it sees the blank region, it interprets it as one hole and reports end of tape. Using a marker to paint (on the back side of the tape) over the region does not work, since the markers I tried allow some light to go through. I stuck a piece of splicing tape and that took care of the hole, but I got a DATA error. I guess the 85 needs some of the info that is missing from the tape. I have also noticed that the tape does indeed stick onto itself on the right hand reel, but if you unwind it slowly you can get it unstuck without damaging it. I assume that conditioning the tape by warming it up before use may reduce this sticking problem, but I still would not want to fast wind a tape in that condition. Given the above, I am even more confident about data recovery, as we may be able to use the existing tape mechanism of the 85 to read the data by skipping the regions that appear blank until the tape un-spools and the drive stalls. This may end up being a software project after all :-) So the new plan is to see how I can get the tape moving at 10 ips (I'll look at the 9815 diagrams) and see how I can tap the output of the read/write IC (1820-2418) to get the bits from the tape. If this does not work, I'll have to get somebody to help me built the preamp for the heads. I wish I could understand this infernal assembly language of the 85 so that I could look at the internal routines that access the tape for ideas. ------------------ ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Does anybody know if those drives are tape and track compatible > with the 85 drive? In other words, would the 2 track head of a 9815 > correctly read the tracks on an 85 tape (yes, I know the controllers > are very different). There was a program on the Series-80 User's Library (8291029) that allowed retrieving 9845A SAVEd programs. The program was for the HP-85 and did not specify any ROMs or peripherals. You may infer from that, that the Series 80 could read 9845 tapes. On the other hand, the 9845 used dual directories (the second one was a backup) per tape while the HP85 only uses one, so this may be an indication that they are NOT compatible. -------------------- "Joe R." wrote: > Both ideas sound do-able to me. It might also be a good way to find out > how HP "protect"s the program tapes and possibly duplicate them. I would guess some bit in the directory entry (like LIF volumes), but if my plan works, we'd be able to copy tapes at the bit level so HP's protection would be irrelevant. > Where are you located? I have a couple of spare scopes and I might be > presauded to loan you one. But I'll have to do some checking to be sure > that that these specific models can survive shipping. Thanks for the offer, but I work at the College of Engineering here at Drexel, so I can find a scope (as well as someone who can tell me how it works :-) -------------------- So, back to the drawing board... **vp From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Oct 30 02:32:42 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:32:42 GMT Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: "Bob Bradlee" "Re: Japanese computers" (Oct 29, 12:53) References: <200510291703.j9TH3jqT001721@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <10510300832.ZM16225@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Oct 29 2005, 12:53, Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 06:53:31 -0700, vrs wrote: > >From: "Bob Bradlee" > >> In the referb center we pushed them off moving vans and > > >No wonder there are so few of these machines left ;-)! > > >(I have always heard that the van should be stopped, and > >the machine lowered slowly :-).) > > Takes the fun out of it :) > > We had a 158 come in one day, we had one of those back into > the building and down a hill kind of loading docks. > While waiting for his turn, one driver began "preping to unload" > in the lot. When it came his turn he came in a bit fast and a MG > came off the back of the truck when he hit the stops hard. > This was before the dock hand could put the flat ramp in place > to cover over the "gap" between truck and dock. > I answered a cattle call to help getting it back on a smooth surface > where the casters acted as wheels and not as keyways. I helped a friend move a large machine -- a MegaNode -- which is effectively three or four cabinets bolted together. It has four casters on each section, but they're apparently furniture-grade and only meant for rolling along corridors and around a machine room. About 70% of them didn't suvive the trip across the flagstones to the truck. Fortunately we had enough people to keep it upright and rolling on the remaining casters! > There was a story where one of the other FE's dropped an MG > over the edge into an open floor section during installation. > I was assured that it was not fun to lift it back up to floor level. A friend extended his raised floor but the builder who supplied the extra panels got the wrong grade. When Jim (and friends!) rolled his IBM mainfraime in, it moved smoothly enough, but shortly after it stopped, there was a crunching noise and the machine settled about 2" down. Several of the casters had punched through the new floor panels. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From emu at ecubics.com Sun Oct 30 11:22:45 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 10:22:45 -0700 Subject: hp 86 Message-ID: <43650165.5070903@ecubics.com> Hi all, any idea which (non HP) monitors I could hook up on it ? (It looks like FBAS, but I read somewhere, that the riming is non standard) And, anybody can help me out with a CP/M disk for the HP 86 ? Cheers & thanks From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Sun Oct 30 13:25:00 2005 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 20:25:00 +0100 Subject: RL02 in Germany In-Reply-To: <40176A8F.6010704@topinform.com> References: <40176A8F.6010704@topinform.com> Message-ID: <43651E0C.9060209@worldonline.nl> Andreas, I would like to get rid of one or two RL02's. I am in Arnhem, The Netherlands, 30 km from the german border. Wim Andreas Holz wrote: > A "Hello" to the European listeners to this list! > > I'm looking despeately for a RL02. > > Andreas > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 30 13:52:04 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 14:52:04 -0500 Subject: Availble for pickup PRO3xx parts Message-ID: <0IP6005VEV4UUT50@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> I have the following items for LOCAL PICKUP ONLY. No shipping. Area: framingham MA. One Pro350 mainboard with all modules and memory (no case). Two Pro380 boards one fairly complete with memory and plug in cards. One Pro350/380 PS These were working spares for back when I had a PRO380. They are free. Allison From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Oct 30 14:51:03 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 14:51:03 -0600 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <43605B46.6060904@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200510302101.j9UL1oMU033465@keith.ezwind.net> ... > A similar question for us UK types would be to ask how many Acorn > BBCs were modified by schools/colleges/whatever. Given the current > pile of them under my stairs I'd guess the figure > was about 80%! ... Out museum has a fairly nice collection of networking technologies that didn't make the cut when Ethernet Switching won the war. One thing we don?t have is a sample of Econet. If anybody has a sample "under the stairs" that they would consider parting with I would be happy to pay the postage to get it here. We don't sing because we're happy - We're happy because we sing! mailto:gilcarrick at comcast.net? web page: http://goodtimeschorus.org/ Gil Carrick VP Chapter Development/ Ex-Webmaster 1012 Portofino Dr., Arlington, TX, 76012 817-274-2210 From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Oct 30 15:20:46 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 15:20:46 -0600 Subject: installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1 In-Reply-To: <49565.82.152.112.73.1130268399.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200510302131.j9ULVAwf033852@keith.ezwind.net> ... > I thought it was part of the ethernet spec that the hardware > address couldn't be changed unless you're running a VMScluster. ... There is another concept called Locally Administered Addresses. They apply to all IEEE LAN technologies, so they may be a part of 802.1 or 2, not 802.3. An example of their use that I saw a lot was with IBM mainframes. Remote controllers talked to the mainframe using the MAC layer. There was no network of transport layer. So a remote communication controller that was LAN attached would be configured with the MAC address of the NIC in the host. Obviously, if that NIC blew up and you didn't want to spend a few hours of mainframe downtime while you repaired the NIC you would resort to that evil process known derisively here as "board-swapping". This would mean that the host NIC now had a new MAC address and the configurations of all the LAN attached controllers had to be changed. In a geographically dispersed LAN it could be quite expensive to touch every box. So, instead of using the burned in MAC address you would use a Locally Administered address. The LAA bit is the second bit on the wire. Ethernet puts the LSb of each byte on the wire first, so a LAA Ethernet address would be one with the 2 bit on. Token Ring put the MSb on the wire first, so an LAA address typically started with 0x40. DEC might not have supported LAAs in any given environment, of course. But I doubt if the 802.3 spec specifically exempts a VMSCluster. ;) DEC was an early player in this area. After all, DIX Ethernet format refers to DEC, Intel & Xerox. They did all manner of strange things. For example, the first three bytes of a MAC address are the vendor code. DEC used 4, and on a given adapter they might use any of the 4 possible variants of the MAC address using the same low order 3 bytes but varying the high order 3 bytes to any of their 4 vendor codes. This is one reason why Ethernet switches can usually learn at least 4 MAC addresses per port. Gil From allain at panix.com Sun Oct 30 15:23:26 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:23:26 -0500 Subject: Paper as History Logging medium: new Book Message-ID: <010c01c5dd98$2d069220$6401a8c0@ibm23xhr06> How about this for a new book? "Digital Retro : The Evolution and Design of the Personal Computer" by Gordon Laing Amazon.com informs me that it was published just three weeks ago. Wonder if anyone here has seen it yet? A reviewer says its set up as Amstrad to Zenith, with photos, might be kind of fluffy. John A. From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Oct 30 15:27:12 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 15:27:12 -0600 Subject: new Sage and Wang 2200 information online Message-ID: <43653AB0.5000708@pacbell.net> I've updated my Wang 2200 documents page with about 20 new manuals. http://www.thebattles.net/wang/docs.html I've updated my fledgling Sage II web page with a number of manual scans and boot disk images in IMD format. http://www.thebattles.net/sage/sage.html The manuals and IMD disk images came from David Erhart; I did the scanning. David is also working on a Sage/Stride site with ambitions much greater than my own: http://www.sageandstride.org/ From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 15:33:13 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:33:13 -0500 Subject: RS/6000; Was Re: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <436435CD.3000804@mdrconsult.com> References: <200510290242.j9T2gAiH089466@keith.ezwind.net> <43639177.3090803@gjcp.net> <4363A822.8040403@mdrconsult.com> <43640F89.7080302@gmail.com> <436435CD.3000804@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43653C19.1050604@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Doc Shipley wrote: >> >>> I can attest to that. Pat Finnegan shipped me a 7013-591 last >>> year. It's a deskside POWER RS/6000, roughly the size of a DEC BA123 >>> chassis. It's a reinforced composite frame, so much lighter than a >>> BA123. >> >> >> >> That's a *very* nice machine. That's the IBM plastic which is >> stronger than steel. 8-) > > > Yes, and by the well-known principle of "like attracts like", I now > have 2 of them. The second has 2GB RAM, FWD SCSI, and 10/100 ethernet. > It and an F40 cost me $50. I've been looking for a well-priced 595 for a while. Although a newish rack model would do too. Peace... Sridhar From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Oct 30 15:40:45 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:40:45 -0000 Subject: installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1 In-Reply-To: <200510302131.j9ULVAwf033852@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <002c01c5dd9a$97792c10$5b01a8c0@pc1> Gil Carrick wrote: > DEC might not have supported LAAs in any given environment, of > course. But I doubt if the 802.3 spec specifically exempts a > VMSCluster. ;) DEC *owned* AA-00-03 (I have an early DEQNA that has such an address) and AA-00-04 (and quite possibly a couple of other AA-00-xx ones, I forget). IIRC DEC gave up those so that locally-administered addresses could be standardised. I'd be surprised if they then forgot to support these! AA-00-04 is, of course, used by DECnet. > DEC was an early player in this area. After all, DIX Ethernet format > refers to DEC, Intel & Xerox. They did all manner of strange things. > For example, the first three bytes of a MAC address are the vendor > code. DEC used 4, and on a given adapter they might use any of the 4 > possible variants of the MAC address using the same low order 3 bytes > but varying the high order 3 bytes to any of their 4 vendor codes. Did anything actually do this? It seems very odd. I know that gear like the DECnis was assigned a block of addresses, but that was perfectly legal (i.e. the CPU card had an address of, for example, 08-00-2B-00-AA-00 and that covered a range up to (again, for example) 08-00-2B-00-AA-FF (i.e. sixteen addresses). Playing with the OUI seems a bit mad to me (and it doesn't gain you anything over the more obvious scheme used by DECnis and other products). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From mokuba at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 15:51:59 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:51:59 -0500 Subject: Wildcat 4 Message-ID: Anyone ever hear of / use wildcat 4? I just found an old copy my dad pirated + a sysop manual he ripped off of someone in a box of books he had... Anything anyone can tell me about it? :) Heh, oldskool BBS piracy in my own hands :) From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Oct 30 16:07:58 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 17:07:58 -0500 Subject: installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1 References: <49565.82.152.112.73.1130268399.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <200510302131.j9ULVAwf033852@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <17253.17470.500000.935508@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Gil" == Gil Carrick writes: Gil> There is another concept called Locally Administered Gil> Addresses. ... Gil> So, instead of using the burned in MAC address you would use a Gil> Locally Administered address. The LAA bit is the second bit on Gil> the wire. Ethernet puts the LSb of each byte on the wire first, Gil> so a LAA Ethernet address would be one with the 2 bit on. Token Gil> Ring put the MSb on the wire first, so an LAA address typically Gil> started with 0x40. Gil> DEC might not have supported LAAs in any given environment, of Gil> course. But I doubt if the 802.3 spec specifically exempts a Gil> VMSCluster. ;) Of course it doesn't. DEC used locally administered addresses all the time -- the DECnet style MAC address is aa-00-04-00-xx-yy so it's locally administered, as indeed it should be given the definition. Gil> DEC was an early player in this area. After all, DIX Ethernet Gil> format refers to DEC, Intel & Xerox. They did all manner of Gil> strange things. For example, the first three bytes of a MAC Gil> address are the vendor code. DEC used 4, and on a given adapter Gil> they might use any of the 4 possible variants of the MAC address Gil> using the same low order 3 bytes but varying the high order 3 Gil> bytes to any of their 4 vendor codes. This is one reason why Gil> Ethernet switches can usually learn at least 4 MAC addresses per Gil> port. That doesn't match any DEC practice I know of, and I was the DEC address administrator at one time so I should know... You may be confused with the DECnet address. DECnet phase IV uses MAC addresses formed from the DECnet node address: aa-00-04-00-xx-yy where xx is the low order and yy the high order of the 16 bit node address. Some NICs were capable of keeping their "real" MAC address alive at the same time, which was good for LAT; others would use this LAA for all traffic, which meant you had to be sure to turn DECnet on before LAT. Before IEEE got into networking, DEC was assigned company codes (later named "OUI) aa-00-01 through aa-00-04. And indeed some early NICs, like the DEUNA, were shipped with MAC addresses like that. In addition, some multicast addresses for DEC protocols are derived from these (they start with AB-00-...). After IEEE started changing Ethernet around, defining the notion of locally administered addresses in the process, DEC obtained OUI 08-00-2B which was then used across the board. I think the earlier assignments were officially grandfathered but even so we stopped using them for new hardware to avoid confusion. DEC also owned OUI 00-00-F8 but I don't know if that was ever used for MAC addresses; it did get used for 802.2 SNAP protocol identifiers for bridging from FDDI to Ethernet, in a very confusing and strange story... paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Oct 30 16:10:59 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 17:10:59 -0500 Subject: installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1 References: <200510302131.j9ULVAwf033852@keith.ezwind.net> <002c01c5dd9a$97792c10$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <17253.17651.140000.821953@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "arcarlini" == arcarlini writes: >> .... For example, the first three bytes of a MAC >> address are the vendor code. DEC used 4, and on a given adapter >> they might use any of the 4 possible variants of the MAC address >> using the same low order 3 bytes but varying the high order 3 >> bytes to any of their 4 vendor codes. arcarlini> Did anything actually do this? It seems very odd. Yes, and I am quite sure that DEC did NOT do anything like that. It would have been a very clear violation of the Ethernet standards we maintained internally, and 802.3 wouldn't be happy about it either. acarlini> I know arcarlini> that gear like the DECnis was assigned a block of arcarlini> addresses, but that was perfectly legal (i.e. the CPU card arcarlini> had an address of, for example, 08-00-2B-00-AA-00 and that arcarlini> covered a range up to (again, for example) arcarlini> 08-00-2B-00-AA-FF (i.e. sixteen addresses). That would be 256, actually... but yes, block assignment like that was standard in multiport devices. The address ROM would actually list the range. paul From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 16:18:12 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 17:18:12 -0500 Subject: CMD/DILOG Q22 SCSI question Message-ID: Hi list, I have a question for those of you who have fast CMD/DILOG Q22 SCSI controllers. Do you have trouble to run NetBSD 1.5.2 (maybe other 1.5.x too) on your Qbus VAX with CQBIC CDAL-Q22 controller? I found that if my board performed two burst mode DMA transactions in one DMA grant, the machine had machine check 10 errors (10us time out when CPU accessed memory that was mapped to the QBUS) from time to time. If I set the board to have one transaction a grant, there was no machine check 10 error. I read the diagram carefully and it seemed my board followed QBUS DMA protocal well. It was the CQBIC controller that prolonged the DMA (slow RPLY as response to DIN). I guess there are two solutions. One is that the software re-try the memory after machine check and keep going. The other is to stay with single shot DMA and be very slow. My guess is those fast CMD/DILOG boards have this problem with CQBIC too. If so, VMS would take the re-try approach. Could you conform or deny my guess? Thank you. My system is KA655 + two MS650-BA. Thank you. vax, 9000 From news at computercollector.com Sun Oct 30 16:21:43 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 17:21:43 -0500 Subject: Paper as History Logging medium: new Book In-Reply-To: <010c01c5dd98$2d069220$6401a8c0@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <001001c5dda0$4f918590$6401a8c0@owneriywbc5o7y> John, I discussed this book in the June 29 issue of Computer Collector. Below is the main part... - Evan K. -------------------------------------- Even we computer nerds want a suntan, so if you plan to read at the beach this summer, there are some new, low-stress books to pass the time and provide eye candy. Unfortunately, unless you're a real beginner, "Retro-Electro" (Pepe Tozzo, Universe Publishing) isn't one of them. The new hardcover book has great photos to help you reminisce, but very little useful information to make you a wiser collector. Its stated goal is to cover a wide variety of electronics, not just computers, and it does that a bit too much for our tastes. Besides computers (several of which are miscategorized), it also includes calculators, radios, wristwatchers, telephones, cameras, video recorders, even citizens band units. However, my main objection is the decision to cover modern technology. Every section includes products right through the 1990s and 2000s. Therefore, the prices associated with most entries are pointless. For the vintage computers, in many cases they're much too high. Perhaps this will make a better collector's book 15 years from now. As said above, it's good for introducing newbies. http://tinyurl.com/agbey Personally, the slightly-less-recent book "Digital Retro: The Evolution and Design of the Personal Computer" is the one I would (and did) purchase for my shelf. You still get the colorful pictures, along with some very interesting history for most entries. Neither book is the near-encyclopedia of Michael Nadeau's "Collectible Microcomputers" but we admit to being a little bit biased about that, as Mike founded this newsletter. Regardless, opportunity is knocking loudly for any aspiring authors out there. There are now plenty of microcomputer-oriented books, just as there are books for collectors of calculators, radios, telephones, and the like. What's missing is a good book about minicomputers! Surely there were enough products to fill a book ("There are, and don't call me Shirley!")... any takers for this challenge? Meanwhile, CCN reader Roy Allan pinged us regarding his own new book, "A Bibliography of the Personal Computer: The Books and Periodical Articles" which is mainly a sequel to his 2001 work, "A History of the Personal Computer: The People and the Technology". "A Bibliography" (ISBN 096891084X) is a short paperback containing more than 280 book notations, 250 periodical notations, and overall, about 40 additional and new references since "A History" appeared. It's a good reference for beginners and experts alike. Check it out through Amazon.com at http://tinyurl.com/ae26k or contact Roy at rallan at execulink.com and, of course, please mention that we sent you. Are there other computer collecting books that your fellow CCN readers should know about, perhaps some new gem you discovered at the local high-tech bookstore? Tell us at news at computercollector.com and you could become famous. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Allain Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:23 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Paper as History Logging medium: new Book How about this for a new book? "Digital Retro : The Evolution and Design of the Personal Computer" by Gordon Laing Amazon.com informs me that it was published just three weeks ago. Wonder if anyone here has seen it yet? A reviewer says its set up as Amstrad to Zenith, with photos, might be kind of fluffy. John A. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 30 16:24:23 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 17:24:23 -0500 Subject: Availble for pickup PRO3xx parts Message-ID: <0IP700HBE26O01F4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Someone has asked for them. Thanks. Allison > >Subject: Availble for pickup PRO3xx parts > From: Allison > Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 14:52:04 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >I have the following items for LOCAL PICKUP ONLY. No shipping. >Area: framingham MA. > >One Pro350 mainboard with all modules and memory (no case). > >Two Pro380 boards one fairly complete with memory and plug >in cards. > >One Pro350/380 PS > >These were working spares for back when I had a PRO380. > >They are free. > > >Allison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Oct 30 16:36:27 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:36:27 +0000 Subject: installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1 In-Reply-To: <17253.17470.500000.935508@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 30/10/05 22:07, "Paul Koning" wrote: > Some NICs were capable of keeping their "real" MAC address alive at > the same time, which was good for LAT; others would use this LAA for > all traffic, which meant you had to be sure to turn DECnet on before > LAT. Wish I'd had an english pound for every time I came across a site with that problem after an administrator had 'tidied' SYSTARTUP_V(whatever).COM 'to make it run faster'. Marvellous :) > DEC also owned OUI 00-00-F8 but I don't know if that was ever used for > MAC addresses; it did get used for 802.2 SNAP protocol identifiers for > bridging from FDDI to Ethernet, in a very confusing and strange > story... Yep, we look after a national chain's DEC kit and DECservers from the later years of DEC have 00-00-F8 as the mac address, I think it might've been once the networking side had been sold to Cabletron but don't quote me on that. A From KParker at workcover.com Sun Oct 30 16:43:09 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:13:09 +1030 Subject: Book worms Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616230483D77A@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Thanks Frank - that was close - I went to Amazon and "The Maverick and His Machine: Thomas Watson, Sr. and the Making of IBM" appeared as a book you buy together as package with the one you suggested. Thanks for the tip!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0471414638/ref=bxgy_cc_img_b/102-902131 0-4684938?%5Fencoding=UTF8 ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Frank McConnell Sent: Monday, 24 October 2005 9:39 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Book worms Kevin Parker wrote: > I am trying to identify a book that I want to get. > > My vague recollection is that it was about IBM or IBM Blue and may > have been about the history of IBM or one of its owners/directors. > > I vaguely recall the front cover had a man standing in it. You may be remembering _Father, Son & Co.: My Life at IBM and Beyond_ by Thomas J. Watson Jr. and Peter Petre. Searching eBay for "Father Son Co." will get you some pictures. -Frank McConnell ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 30 16:24:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:24:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Yet another idea for recovering the data from Series80 tapes In-Reply-To: <20051030071603.0A166201043B@mail.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Oct 30, 5 02:16:03 am Message-ID: > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:... > > Hmmm. I thought it was where the taps stuch to itself, or to the drive > > belt, when the catridge was stored. In which case your idea might not > > help much. > > Aha! There goes my original hypothesis. Well, that is relatively easy to > check. I took apart two old tapes and found the following: > > Assuming that the tapes were rewound before storage, there are two > stretches of weakened magnetic coating on both tapes I looked at; the first > was short while the second longer. These correspond to the length of tape > in contact with the drive belt This would seemm to imply my guess was correct _in this case_. Of course other tapes might fail in other ways. > Using a marker to paint (on the back side of the tape) over the region > does not work, since the markers I tried allow some light to go through. > I stuck a piece of splicing tape and that took care of the hole, but I > got a DATA error. I guess the 85 needs some of the info that is missing > from the tape. Of course if you did the trick you were suggesting and read the tape at the flux-transition level, you could at least try to recover the data that was on the undamaged tape. It might be possible to piece together some of the files. I assume the tape format is somewhat LIF-like. That is, there's a single directory at the start of the tape, and files are contiguous. > So the new plan is to see how I can get the tape moving at 10 ips > (I'll look at the 9815 diagrams) and see how I can tap the output of I think the 9825 controller is easier to understand (and easier to use outside the machine if you mamange to find one). > the read/write IC (1820-2418) to get the bits from the tape. I would not try to use that IC. AFAIK it's a single-channel device, you can't read both heads simultaneously. Look at the 9815/9825 schematics to get an idea how to build a read amplifier using standard parts. You'd need to build 2 of them of course, one for each track. > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Does anybody know if those drives are tape and track compatible > > with the 85 drive? In other words, would the 2 track head of a 9815 > > correctly read the tracks on an 85 tape (yes, I know the controllers > > are very different). > There was a program on the Series-80 User's Library (8291029) that > allowed retrieving 9845A SAVEd programs. The program was for the > HP-85 and did not specify any ROMs or peripherals. You may infer > from that, that the Series 80 could read 9845 tapes. On the other > hand, the 9845 used dual directories (the second one was a backup) > per tape while the HP85 only uses one, so this may be an indication > that they are NOT compatible. I know for a fact that the 9845 tape drive is the same as that in the 9815 and 9825. I think the data format is very different, but the drive is compatible in the snese that the track positions are the same, etc (if not, the 85 wouldn't have a hope of reading the 9845 tape). Which means you might be able to do the reverse. I would not try to use a 9845 tape controller. There's a big, heatsinked, HP custom chip in the middle, linked to a DAC for the motor speed control. The servo loop, read/write circuit, etc, is all partly inside that ASIC. And it's not even software compatible with the 9825 (it uses different lines of the I/O bus, IIRC the 9825 uses DMA, the 9845 doesn't, etc). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 30 16:34:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:34:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hp 86 In-Reply-To: <43650165.5070903@ecubics.com> from "e.stiebler" at Oct 30, 5 10:22:45 am Message-ID: > > Hi all, > any idea which (non HP) monitors I could hook up on it ? >From what I rememebr, any US TV-rate (RS170 or something) composite mono monitor will work. I've used a little NEC thing, which has 'hold' controls that will let it lock to UK or US TV rates, and that works fine with the 86B and the 9915. FWIW, the original HP monitor was actually an NEC chassis, and I can't see anything odd about it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 30 16:11:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:11:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Yet another idea for recovering the data from Series80 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051029223115.11c7d5b8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Oct 29, 5 10:31:15 pm Message-ID: > >What I would do (and alas it needs a 'scope would be to remove the R/W > >chip and connect the differential inputs of the 'scope to HC and H0 > >(say). Run a recorded, but unimportant 'scratch tape' through the thing > >and see what signal you get. Then design a differential amplifier to > >bring it up to the sound card input levels. > > > >The preamp schematic from the 9815/9825 tape drive might be a start. Does > >anybody know if those drives are tape and track compatible with the 85 > >drive? > > They DO use the same tape so they must be compatible. I don't know about That is, IMHO a non-sequitur. These tapes are not pre-formated, so there's nothing in the blank media that determines the track positions. OK, we know both are 2 track drives, we know the full width of the tape can be used by the head in the drive (the tape is not turned over or anything), but that doesn't necessarily imply that the track position and spacing is the same. It is, however, very likely to be the case. > the track spacing but I would think they would be the same. It should be > easy enough to check with some MagnaSee. I THINK that's the name of the > liquid that you put on mag tapes/cards to see the magnetic tracks. I have a > can of it around here somewhere but no idea where it's at at the moment. I am still looking for a can of that stuff. > >Could you not design your own motor controller? It's 'just' a matter of > >controlling the motor voltage to get the right frequency output from the > >tacho sensor. > > It's a servo loop so I don't think it would be that easy. You'd have to > have the correct response times and all that to make it work properly. And > remember that these motors have both a high spped and normal reading speed > as well as reverse so your controller would to be capable of handling all Yes, but you don't need that. Versallis (?spell) just wants to read the tape. He doesn't want to do high-speed searches or rewind or anything. so the problem is a lot simpler. If you could use the 9825 tape drive, then I'd grab the controller from that machine too. From what I remember, the motor speed control is all done in hardware (unlike the 9815, where there may be some 6800 firmware involced, but actually, again, I _think_ it's all hardware). Use that to control the motor (it's easy to write the correct values to the I/O locations using just about any other machine, the bus is pretty simple), make your own head amplifier and read the signals with a PC soundcard or whatver. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 30 16:13:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:13:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <436432F5.3020705@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Oct 29, 5 09:41:57 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Of course therre's docuemntation. IBM sold a proper TechRef for this > > machine with schematics and BIOS source. > > I know that -- I don't own a copy and can't seem to find one on ebay or > otherwise (I do look for these things before I ask questions, you know :-) AH, OK. A suprising number of people don't realise that the PC techrefs exist, or how complete they are. I had the good sense (!) to buy an almost complete of the PC-familiy ones (that is, not the PS/3 stuff) when they were just still available from IBM. They sure are hard to find elsewhere, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 30 16:41:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:41:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Waht is an MC1806 ? Message-ID: The Subject: line says it all really, but perhaps I should give a little more explanation. I am working on an HP59405, which is the HPIB interface for the HP9830 'calculator'. On the PCB are 2 chips which cross to something called an MC1806. This is not in any of my Motorola databooks. What I have determined (I think) so far : 1) 14 pin DIL package, power on 14, ground on 7 as usual. 2) Seems to be a quad 2-input device, pinout as the 7400 -- that is, inputs on 1 and 2, output on 3, etc. 3) Seems to be DTL in that the output directly drives the base of an NPN transsistor, the emitter of which is grounded. 4) The most logical (!) function would be a quad 2 input NOR gate. Maybe an AND gate? Does anyone have a databook that lists it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 30 16:17:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:17:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: <058E0C58-4908-11DA-971E-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Oct 30, 5 06:42:56 am Message-ID: > > > Am zondag, 30.10.05, um 01:43 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Tony Duell: > > > > > Actually I am trying to think of anything I own and depend on (or even > > use actively) that I am not capable of repairing.... > > Your PC's harddisk, i.e. the thing that contains the most precious of > your computer : the data. > You might be able to repair a certain class of failures with these > drives, but in most cases you will have to replace it. Alas yes... I can't attack it like I do with the RK's, etc :-) > > Also the same is true for the computer CPU's. If it breaks, you replace That depends on _which_ computer :-). I can certainly repair the CPUs in my minis, PERQs and HP desktop calculators > it . You do not want a FIB machine so you had a chance to repair the IC > itself. Yes, OK, I agree with you. > > Most of us view CPU and HD as basic building blocks of a computer. If > you take the same viewpoint on a PC's motherboard, then there is no > (technical) reason why a more modern PC is out of the question. I think want annoys me is that I know I should be able to fix a motherboard to compoennt level. I can do SMD rework (it doesn't bother me at all now). I can trace signals with a 'scope and logic analyser. And I have the obijection to replacing more than I need to. > > If you don't want another PC because you lack space, now there is > something I can really understand ! Yes, there is always that :-). I am having peoblems finding space for the PX8 I bought the other week... -tony From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Oct 30 17:03:14 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 18:03:14 -0500 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: References: <436432F5.3020705@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051030180314.4e6ea050.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:13:28 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Of course therre's docuemntation. IBM sold a proper TechRef for this > > > machine with schematics and BIOS source. > > > > I know that -- I don't own a copy and can't seem to find one on ebay or > > otherwise (I do look for these things before I ask questions, you know :-) > > AH, OK. A suprising number of people don't realise that the PC techrefs > exist, or how complete they are. > > I had the good sense (!) to buy an almost complete of the PC-familiy ones > (that is, not the PS/3 stuff) when they were just still available from > IBM. > > They sure are hard to find elsewhere, though. > I've had the good sense to snap them up where I've been able to get them. And I have the IBM PC/XT/AT volumes, and also the TechRef for the Compaq Deskpro 386 (which is just as comprehensive as the IBM references, and IMPORTANT because it gives insight into newer tech that the IBM-AT). And god no, I didn't pay IBM or Compaq's prices for them. I also have most of the IBM Techrefs scanned in PDFs. > -tony -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Oct 30 17:03:42 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:03:42 -0000 Subject: installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003901c5dda6$2dc85320$5b01a8c0@pc1> Adrian Graham wrote: > Yep, we look after a national chain's DEC kit and DECservers from the > later years of DEC have 00-00-F8 as the mac address, I think it > might've been once the networking side had been sold to Cabletron but > don't quote me on that. I have some DE500-something-or-other PCI ethernet cards that use 00-00-F8 so they are definitely pre-Cabletron and pre-HP and (IIRC) pre-COMPAQ. Anyway, the DECservers followed some strange circuitous route that took them to DNPG (and have now drifted off to someone else). They did (I think) briefly live inside Cabletron, but only while they were looking for somewhere to send them :-) Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Oct 30 17:05:39 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:05:39 -0000 Subject: installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1 In-Reply-To: <17253.17651.140000.821953@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <003e01c5dda6$74357fe0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Paul Koning wrote: > arcarlini> covered a range up to (again, for example) > arcarlini> 08-00-2B-00-AA-FF (i.e. sixteen addresses). > > That would be 256, actually... Oops. My first late-night off-by-4-bits error :-) Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sun Oct 30 17:07:25 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 18:07:25 -0500 Subject: Wildcat 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20051030180636.048cf060@tampabay.rr.com> At 04:51 PM 10/30/2005, you wrote: >Anyone ever hear of / use wildcat 4? I just found an old copy I was a Wildcap Sysop for a number of years. Pretty neat program. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Oct 30 17:28:38 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:28:38 +0000 Subject: installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1 In-Reply-To: <003901c5dda6$2dc85320$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: On 30/10/05 23:03, "a.carlini at ntlworld.com" wrote: > I have some DE500-something-or-other PCI ethernet cards that use > 00-00-F8 so they are definitely pre-Cabletron and pre-HP and (IIRC) > pre-COMPAQ. Anyway, the DECservers followed some strange circuitous > route that took them to DNPG (and have now drifted off to > someone else). They did (I think) briefly live inside Cabletron, but > only while they were looking for somewhere to send them :-) Really? I happened across the DNPG website a couple of weeks ago and the DECserver side of things was still in evidence, though I guess it may have featured under the awful 'legacy' word. One of our customers suddenly decided their 100% uptime Alpha 1000A system was legacy and would be replaced 'within 2 months'. Yeah, right. A From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sun Oct 30 17:33:20 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 18:33:20 -0500 Subject: Yet another idea for recovering the data from Series80 tapes Message-ID: <20051030233320.E31012010B41@mail.cs.drexel.edu> "Joe R." wrote: > FWIW I tested about a dozen tapes a few years ago and about 4 failed > on the first pass, about that many failed in the next few days and > only one lasted a week. The tapes stick unto themselves, so it is a good idea to unwind them slowly rather than perform a retention (CTAPE) which is a violent and abusive treatment for a tape that is ready to fall apart. Whether you (think you) can afford two data extraction passes (vs one pass) on a given tape *will* affect the strategy used. In the one-pass case you have to salvage all you can from both tracks, while in the second case you can rewind the tape (at the slow reading speed, of course) and have a go at the second track. The HP-85 tapes (and their 98xx cousins) are NOT serpentine: to read track 2 you rewind to BOT and start reading using the second head. Unfortunately the read/write IC (1820-2418) on the HP-85 can only deal with one head at a time (only one DIO pin), so to employ the one-pass strategy, you either have to wire another 1820-2418 strapped to read track two, or you have do the analog (audio) recording I suggested initially. > They DO use the same tape so they must be compatible. I don't know about > the track spacing but I would think they would be the same. Bad news. I checked the specs (TechData brochures from hpmuseum.net) and came up with this table for read/write speeds HP 9825 22ips HP 9835 22ips HP 9845 22ips (didn't find any data, but I assume its 22 ips) HP 85 11ips HP 9815 10ips So there goes any hope of cassette data interchange between the Series80 and the rest of the HP line. :-( Apparently the HP-85 was a cheapo solution vs the 98[234]5 line. The speed was slower and while this does not reflect on the total capacity of the drive (around 240Kb), its access times are worse. This was a surprise to me as I would have thought that HP would want to have some data exchange capability between the newer low-end HP-85 and its high-end models (after all they were expected to co-exist in the same environments). > It should be > easy enough to check with some MagnaSee. I THINK that's the name of the > liquid that you put on mag tapes/cards to see the magnetic tracks. I have a > can of it around here somewhere but no idea where it's at at the moment. I have been trying to get this thing for ages, and I couldn't. In the end I found this www.sprague-magnetics.com/library/sprgmag.pdf which works the same way. Initially I thought I could simply spray the stuff on the tape and optically read the bits, but its too messy. > Actually that sounds like a GOOD idea. Ratty looking HP 85s are readily > available. I'd take one of those and take out the tape drive ribbon cable > and replace it with real wires then add some test points to it and maybe > cut some sections out of the case to allow access to it's inards and make a > test platform out of it. My advice is to go for 9915As I have seen them go for next to nothing on eBay, and even then remain unsold. Apparently people do not realize that these are Series 80, or they are discouraged by the lack of screen and (most importantly) keyboard! I am also afraid that by creating the series80.org site, I caused an increase in the prices of Series80 machines, but with the hpmuseum.net slowly making all this info available anyway, I do not feel so guilty any more :-) **vp PS I found another metric screw up: In the 9835TechData-5953-0982-12pages-Oct78.pdf file in hpmuseum.net the length of the tape is given as 426.7 METERS, followed by the more reasonable 140ft (the HP-85B spec sheet gives the length of tape as 43m or 140ft). BTW2 On the HP-85 the rewind time (end-to-end) is 29 sec. When I was checking an early capstan repair and did a CTAPE (which does a fast forward to EOT and then a fast rewind to BOT), it felt like that thing was taking forever (probably it took longer because I was watching over it :-) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 30 18:04:43 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:04:43 -0800 Subject: Wildcat 4 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051030180636.048cf060@tampabay.rr.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20051030180636.048cf060@tampabay.rr.com> Message-ID: <200510301604430639.07034663@10.0.0.252> >>Anyone ever hear of / use wildcat 4? I just found an old copy Yup, not a bad bbs package. I used it for several years. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 30 18:16:44 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:16:44 -0800 Subject: Yet another idea for recovering the data from Series80 tapes In-Reply-To: <20051030233320.E31012010B41@mail.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20051030233320.E31012010B41@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <200510301616440321.070E4569@10.0.0.252> On 10/30/2005 at 6:33 PM Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: >I have been trying to get this thing for ages, and I couldn't. In the end >I found this > www.sprague-magnetics.com/library/sprgmag.pdf >which works the same way. Initially I thought I could simply spray the >stuff on the tape and optically read the bits, but its too messy. Products such as Magnasee and Visomag used a Freon TF base and so were affected by the ban on chlorinated fluorochlorocarbons. I've used Kyread; it's pretty good and still available. You can get it in spray and in a dropper bottle (I'd recommend the spray--once the dropper bottles are open, the liquid will evaporate quickly. I don't know if the firm's still in business, but they're still listed in the Madison WI yellow pages: Kyros Corporation 5428 Lake Mendota Drive Madison, WI 53705 (608) 238-3587 Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Oct 30 18:49:12 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:49:12 -0800 Subject: Waht is an MC1806 ? References: Message-ID: <43656A05.F1C42443@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > I am working on an HP59405, which is the HPIB interface for the HP9830 > 'calculator'. On the PCB are 2 chips which cross to something called an > MC1806. This is not in any of my Motorola databooks. > > What I have determined (I think) so far : > > 1) 14 pin DIL package, power on 14, ground on 7 as usual. > > 2) Seems to be a quad 2-input device, pinout as the 7400 -- that is, > inputs on 1 and 2, output on 3, etc. > > 3) Seems to be DTL in that the output directly drives the base of an NPN > transsistor, the emitter of which is grounded. > > 4) The most logical (!) function would be a quad 2 input NOR gate. Maybe > an AND gate? > > Does anyone have a databook that lists it? The 1969 Motorola Semiconductor Data Book lists the MC1806 as DTL quad 2 input AND gate (no inversion), pinout as you inferred (outputs 3,6,8,11). The 1800/1900 numbers seem to be additions/extensions to the standard 800/900-series DTL. (So MC1806 and MC1906 are the same function but different temperature ranges.) (Part number MC806 was already used in the RTL series.) (Also listed in the 1973 Moto Ref Vol 1) From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 30 19:00:59 2005 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 17:00:59 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 26, Issue 93 In-Reply-To: <200510310010.j9V0Ag2E039291@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510310010.j9V0Ag2E039291@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43656CCB.7060400@sbcglobal.net> >From The 1969 Motorola data book: THe MC1806 is a quad 2 input DTL AND gate. Bob Message: 21 Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:41:27 +0000 (GMT) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Waht is an MC1806 ? To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain The Subject: line says it all really, but perhaps I should give a little more explanation. I am working on an HP59405, which is the HPIB interface for the HP9830 'calculator'. On the PCB are 2 chips which cross to something called an MC1806. This is not in any of my Motorola databooks. What I have determined (I think) so far : 1) 14 pin DIL package, power on 14, ground on 7 as usual. 2) Seems to be a quad 2-input device, pinout as the 7400 -- that is, inputs on 1 and 2, output on 3, etc. 3) Seems to be DTL in that the output directly drives the base of an NPN transsistor, the emitter of which is grounded. 4) The most logical (!) function would be a quad 2 input NOR gate. Maybe an AND gate? Does anyone have a databook that lists it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 30 19:01:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 01:01:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Yet another idea for recovering the data from Series80 tapes In-Reply-To: <20051030233320.E31012010B41@mail.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Oct 30, 5 06:33:20 pm Message-ID: > Unfortunately the read/write IC (1820-2418) on the HP-85 can only deal with > one head at a time (only one DIO pin), so to employ the one-pass strategy, > you either have to wire another 1820-2418 strapped to read track two, or you > have do the analog (audio) recording I suggested initially. The latter is probably easier. > > > They DO use the same tape so they must be compatible. I don't know about > > the track spacing but I would think they would be the same. > > Bad news. I checked the specs (TechData brochures from hpmuseum.net) > and came up with this table for read/write speeds > HP 9825 22ips > HP 9835 22ips > HP 9845 22ips (didn't find any data, but I assume its 22 ips) > HP 85 11ips > HP 9815 10ips > > So there goes any hope of cassette data interchange between the Series80 > and the rest of the HP line. :-( Nonsense. You cannot deduce that if the tape speed is different then the tapes are not compatible. If you double the tape speed _and_ double the data rate, then the actual flux transitions on the tape are identical (much the same as doubling the rotational speed of a floppy disk and doubling the data rate there -- HP's old 3.5" drives (acutally Sony mechanisms) turned at 600rpm, but the disks are comapatible, read and write, with 300 rpm PC drives). > My advice is to go for 9915As I have seen them go for next to nothing on eBay, > and even then remain unsold. Apparently people do not realize that these are > Series 80, or they are discouraged by the lack of screen and (most importantly) > keyboard! The monitor is trivial, of course. And the keyboard shouldn't be a problem now that the matrix layout (same as an 85) and connector pinout are available. > PS I found another metric screw up: > In the 9835TechData-5953-0982-12pages-Oct78.pdf file in hpmuseum.net > the length of the tape is given as 426.7 METERS, followed by the Presumably 42.67m > more reasonable 140ft (the HP-85B spec sheet gives the length of tape > as 43m or 140ft). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 30 19:09:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 01:09:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Waht is an MC1806 ? In-Reply-To: <43656A05.F1C42443@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Oct 30, 5 04:49:12 pm Message-ID: > The 1969 Motorola Semiconductor Data Book lists the MC1806 as > DTL quad 2 input AND gate (no inversion), pinout as you inferred (outputs 3,6,8,11). Argh, I have the 1968 databook (seriously!). I am suprised it's an AND gate, but it could make sense. Basically, there has to be a way to force the output low (to turn off the transistor connected there, which drives an HPIB data line). That means it has to be an AND or a NOR gate. Turns out I was wrong guessing the data had to be inverted going through this gate. Thanks for the info, I'll figure out the rest of the board... -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 30 21:23:04 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:23:04 -0600 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43658E18.2090404@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > They sure are hard to find elsewhere, though. Which is why I'm grateful you're on this list :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 30 21:25:28 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:25:28 -0600 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <20051030180314.4e6ea050.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <436432F5.3020705@oldskool.org> <20051030180314.4e6ea050.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43658EA8.3030504@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > I also have most of the IBM Techrefs scanned in PDFs. Are these available online somewhere? I have several 5150s that are in various stages of working order that I'd like to repair, and one 5150 in perfect working order that I like to program low-level stuff on... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 30 22:03:42 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:03:42 -0500 Subject: RS/6000; Was Re: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <43653C19.1050604@gmail.com> References: <200510290242.j9T2gAiH089466@keith.ezwind.net> <436435CD.3000804@mdrconsult.com> <43653C19.1050604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510302303.42234.pat@computer-refuge.org> Sridhar Ayengar declared on Sunday 30 October 2005 04:33 pm: > Doc Shipley wrote: > > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Doc Shipley wrote: > >>> I can attest to that. Pat Finnegan shipped me a 7013-591 last > >>> year. It's a deskside POWER RS/6000, roughly the size of a DEC > >>> BA123 chassis. It's a reinforced composite frame, so much lighter > >>> than a BA123. > >> > >> That's a *very* nice machine. That's the IBM plastic which is > >> stronger than steel. 8-) > > > > Yes, and by the well-known principle of "like attracts like", I > > now have 2 of them. The second has 2GB RAM, FWD SCSI, and 10/100 > > ethernet. It and an F40 cost me $50. > > I've been looking for a well-priced 595 for a while. Although a > newish rack model would do too. You just have to look in the right place. I've seen 3 595's go through Purdue's salvage op in the past year... One I got, one I gave to a friend, and one that was quite trashed and sitting in a dumpster when I found it :(. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Sun Oct 30 23:59:56 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:59:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Modcomp Mini Photos In-Reply-To: <200510302303.42234.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200510290242.j9T2gAiH089466@keith.ezwind.net> <436435CD.3000804@mdrconsult.com> <43653C19.1050604@gmail.com> <200510302303.42234.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1490.70.185.179.173.1130738396.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com> A while back (month and a half) I put out notice for a Modcomp needing rescue at my local university surplus (UC-Santa Barbara, California). Someone has saved it and is in the process of arranging pickup. I promised photos to the list and here they are: http://www.soupwizard.com/temp/modcomp/ Jeff From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Oct 31 00:13:21 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 01:13:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: <058E0C58-4908-11DA-971E-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> References: <058E0C58-4908-11DA-971E-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <200510310618.BAA20314@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Actually I am trying to think of anything I own and depend on (or >> even use actively) that I am not capable of repairing.... > Your PC's harddisk, Tony doesn't have a "PC" (he's stated this often enough that even I have managed to remeber it - even if I've misremembered, I'm quite sure he does not "depend on" one) and quite likely does not have, and surely does not depend on, a modern "harddisk" - by which I mean one with effectively unrepairable electronics (by heavy dependence on undocumented ASICs) and a sealed and approximately unrepairable head/platter assembly. > Also the same is true for the computer CPU's. Not for most (all, probably, given his statement) of Tony's machines. > You do not want a FIB machine so you had a chance to repair the IC > itself. This too is quite likely not true of Tony, I would hazard a guess - possibly excepting reasons of physical space. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cctech at retro.co.za Mon Oct 31 00:42:06 2005 From: cctech at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:42:06 +0200 Subject: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 In-Reply-To: <200510290227.j9T2Rl6R000791@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510290227.j9T2Rl6R000791@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20051031084015.0285c438@alpha.ccii.co.za> > One of my machines has a "Turbo" button that changes from "HI" to "LO". The last time I jumper-programmed one of those little boards I made the display read "SLO" and "dEd"... W From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 31 00:53:46 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:53:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival 8.0 Event Guide Message-ID: Vintage Computer Festival 8.0 Saturday & Sunday, November 5-6 Computer History Museum Mountain View, California http://www.vintage.org/2005/main/ This is your complete VCF 8.0 event guide! Vintage Computer Festival 8.0 happens this coming Saturday and Sunday, November 5th and 6th, at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. The doors open at 9:30am each day. Speaker sessions begin at 10:00am and run until 2:00pm. The exhibit and marketplace open at 2:00pm and run until 6:00pm. Admission is $12 per person per day for full event access, including the speakers, exhibits and marketplace, or $7 per person per day for exhibit and marketplace only (exhibit and marketplace open at 2:00pm each day). Parking is free, and kids 17 and under are admitted free of charge. Homebrew Computer Club Retrospective The VCF in conjunction with the DigiBarn Computer Museum is proud to present a 30th anniversary celebration of the founding of the Homebrew Computer Club, the legendary Silicon Valley institution that helped to launch the era of the personal computer. Bruce Damer of the DigiBarn Computer Museum will moderate this panel of former Homebrew members, including Steve Wozniak, Lee Felsenstein, Allen Baum, Len Shustek, Bob Lash and Michael Holley. Join the panel as they recount their experiences and gab with the group as we feast on some yummy cake, courtesy of the DigiBarn: http://www.digibarn.org/ VCF 8.0 Speaker Schedule The speaker schedule for VCF 8.0 is as follows: Saturday, November 5 Time Session Title Speaker(s) ------- -------------------------------------- -------------------- 10:00am Film Screening: The Future of Pinball Greg Maletic 11:00am IOCCC Award Presentation Ceremony Landon Curt Noll 12:00pm VCF Shenanigans Sellam Ismail 1:00pm Homebrew Computer Club Retrospective Steve Wozinak Lee Felsenstein Join us in a celebration of the 30th Len Shustek anniversary of the founding of the Michael Holley Homebrew Computer Club. Moderated by Bob Lash Bruce Damer of the DigiBarn. Allen Baum Sunday, November 6 Time Session Title Speaker(s) ------- -------------------------------------- -------------------- 10:00am A History of the Smart Card Jerry Svigals 11:00am Yack 'N Hack: Computers Talk Back Deborah Norling 12:00pm A Personal Re-telling of Personal Dave Freeman Computer Retailing 12:30pm Nerd Trivia Challenge! Evan Koblentz and three Uber Nerds Are you up to the Challenge? Hosted vying for the prize! by Evan Koblentz, editor of the Computer Collector Newsletter 1:00pm In The Beginning: A BBS History Christian Wirth Discussion Joe Russack Ernie Longmire A panel discussion to follow-up the screening of BBS Documentary on day one of the VCF. Moderated by director Jason Scott. For complete details on this year's speaker series including session abstracts and speaker biographies, visit: http://www.vintage.org/2005/main/speaker.php Nerd Trivia Challenge The Nerd Trivia Challenge is a trivia contest to test the knowledge of the most serious computer history buffs. Contestants are chosen from VCF attendees who qualify for play by taking a preliminary quiz upon arrival at the VCF on Saturday, November 5. Those applicants scoring highest on the preliminary quiz will be selected to compete in the Nerd Trivia Challenge on Sunday, November 6, at 12:30pm. The Nerd Trivia Challenge is being hosted by Evan Koblentz, editor of the Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com To participate in the Nerd Trivia Challenge, ask to take the NTC preliminary quiz when you arrive at the VCF registration desk. Film Screenings The VCF is proud to present the first ever public screening of a new documentary film titled "The Future of Pinball": http://www.thefutureofpinball.com The Future of Pinball is a new documentary on the recent history of the pinball industry. The showing is a beta version of the film and VCF attendees will have a chance to help direct the final cut based on the feedback they provide. Be sure to catch director Greg Maletic's talk on Saturday, November 5, at 10:00am. The VCF will also be reprising a screening of BBS Documentary: http://www.bbsdocumentary.com The screening will take place on Saturday, November 5, and the film will be shown in its entirety to all VCF attendees. On Sunday, November 6, join director Jason Scott and three of the subjects from the film at the BBS history panel at 1:00pm. Tours and Excursions Guided tours of the Computer History Museum Visible Storage collection will be conducted on Saturday, November 5, with Visible Storage open for self-guided tours on Sunday, November 6. For those interested in touring the DigiBarn Computer Museum, curator Bruce Damer will lead an excursion into the Santa Cruz mountains that will disembark from the VCF at 3:00pm. Complete details and tour times are available on the VCF 8.0 website: http://www.vintage.org/2005/main/tours.php Bring On The Exhibits! Once again the VCF has attracted some rather fascinating exhibits. Check out what we've got in store for VCF 8.0: http://www.vintage.org/2005/main/exhibit.php We look forward to having you at the Vintage Computer Festival. I'll see you there! Best regards, Sellam Ismail Producer Vintage Computer Festival -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bv at norbionics.com Sun Oct 30 06:07:40 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:07:40 +0100 Subject: Best OS/2 1.3 or 2.1 Machine In-Reply-To: <575131af0510231847r23afe158o@mail.gmail.com> References: <008801c5cbcb$240abbd0$0500fea9@game> <6.2.5.4.2.20051008071804.03375558@boff-net.dhs.org> <4349F0A3.8010203@gmail.com> <575131af0510231847r23afe158o@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:47:39 +0200, Liam Proven wrote: > On 10/10/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Uhhh. No. e-Comstation works just fine with a whole load of features >> that WSeB doesn't have. > > Has Serenity got IBM to hand over the late-fixpack Warp Server 4.5 > kernel and other updates yet? Last I heard, eCom was still on the Warp > 4.0 kernel, even tho' IBM had done substantiat tweaking & revision > subsequently... > I am running sCS 1.1, and already when that was released I got version 4.45. The SMP version would have had to be 4.5 at that time, since I do not think there ever was any 4.0 SMP kernel. In any case, my eCS seems to run better than my WSeB, and the fixes from Serenity seem to be tracking those from IBM quite closely. I am not aware of any IBM updates that have not found their way into eCS. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Sun Oct 30 06:46:26 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:46:26 +0100 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <10510290910.ZM14165@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <200510290242.j9T2gAiH089466@keith.ezwind.net> <10510290910.ZM14165@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 10:10:26 +0200, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Oct 28 2005, 22:32, Bob Bradlee wrote: >> Everything big IBM makes has built in casters. >> Leveling pads are only dropped once it is in place in the computer > room. >> >> Some times it takes a few people to push and navigate, but even a > 370/168 would >> roll down the hall when the pads were lifted. > > Ditto for a few Amdahls and Fujitsus I've helped to move. > The only physically big computers I have seen that did not have some kind of wheels were single-rack minicomputers which could just barely be moved by two meen with lifting harness. I have also seen some wheelless tape drives, but no large disk drives without some means of both transportation and locking in place. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Sun Oct 30 06:56:06 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:56:06 +0100 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <43639177.3090803@gjcp.net> References: <200510290242.j9T2gAiH089466@keith.ezwind.net> <43639177.3090803@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:12:55 +0200, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > vrs wrote: >> From: "Bob Bradlee" >> >>> In the referb center we pushed them off moving vans and >> No wonder there are so few of these machines left ;-)! >> (I have always heard that the van should be stopped, and the machine >> lowered slowly :-).) >> Vince > > Most IBM retail kit (the stuff they use for EPOS) would survive that > quite happily. You might want to reseat some cables and reboot, just > like we tell the people in the stores to do. > I remember a case when an NCR Century was dropped onto the pier in an unloading accident. The packing crate was splintered, and the insurance agent immediately wrote it off. A couple of NCR CEs bought it as scrap, straightened the bent brackets holding the core modules, and had it up and running in short time. I think they made a tidy profit on that. -- -bv From terry at terryking.us Sun Oct 30 12:18:58 2005 From: terry at terryking.us (Terry King) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 19:18:58 +0100 Subject: PC and XCT Power Supplies In-Reply-To: <200510301800.j9UI0fVG026500@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20051030191650.03c88fd0@mail.terryking.us> At 12:00 PM 10/30/2005 -0600, you wrote: >I've traced out schecmatics for the ones in my machines. I've offered to >get the PortablePC one scanned. Do you want me to see if I can get the >others done sometime. > >-tony Tony, It's hard to believe they these aren't on the Web somewhere after all these years.. But they probably WERE on some BBS in 1995, and we don't know where... I have lots of working XT's and spare parts so I'm OK, but I'll ask around when I'm back in the States... Regards, Terry King ...On The Mediterranean in Carthage, Tunisia terry at terryking.us From terry at terryking.us Sun Oct 30 12:19:14 2005 From: terry at terryking.us (Terry King) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 19:19:14 +0100 Subject: PC and XCT Power Supplies Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20051030191909.03c7d6a8@mail.terryking.us> At 12:00 PM 10/30/2005 -0600, you wrote: >I've traced out schecmatics for the ones in my machines. I've offered to >get the PortablePC one scanned. Do you want me to see if I can get the >others done sometime. > >-tony Tony, It's hard to believe they these aren't on the Web somewhere after all these years.. But they probably WERE on some BBS in 1995, and we don't know where... I have lots of working XT's and spare parts so I'm OK, but I'll ask around when I'm back in the States... Regards, Terry King ...On The Mediterranean in Carthage, Tunisia terry at terryking.us From tequilizer at gmx.net Sun Oct 30 15:03:18 2005 From: tequilizer at gmx.net (Tequi Lizer) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:03:18 +0100 Subject: HP 9845 C with 280 option startup failure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43653516.5090009@gmx.net> > >> Internally your machine should be completely identical to mine, except >> one or two ROMs which are special for the color monitor, even the RAM >> expansion probably is the same (98407A). >> > > In which case, start pestering Dave Colver for the schematics :-). > > There is another difference, the 9845C were shipped with colored functions keys ;-) I already tried to contact Dave, maybe he's currently on vacation... >> What I'm really interested in: The model 200 versions have a new power >> supply unit, no voltage check points any more, but a 4 LED indicator >> (and twice the number of electrolytic capacitors inside). Those LEDs >> > > Yep, I traced out schematics of the PSU too. > > Be warned this is _by far_ the most complciated supply you're likely to > meet. it's on 5PCBs, there are 17 chips on the control board (counting > the chopper transsitor modules for the secondary-side regulators). And 4 > maine chopper transistors. > > A rough breakdown of what is on each board : > > PSU mainboard (09845-66520) > --------------------------- > Mains rectifier > Startup transformer/rectifiers > 2 main chopper transformers > > +5, +/-12V output (09845-66517) > ------------------------------- > Output filters (and energy storage inductors for the LV switching > regulators) for the logic supply outputs > > +/- 22V output (09845-66519) > ---------------------------- > Output filters, etc, for the tape drive and printer power supplies > Chopper driver transistors > Crobar for the printer supply (this is the only crowbar in the unit!) > > Chopper (09845-66518) > ---------------------- > 4 indentcial chopper circuits with transformer-coupled drive (drivers for > that are on the -66519 PCB). Wired as 2 totem poles across the 400V > rectified mains to drive the 2 main chopper transformers > > PSU Control (09845-66534) > ------------------------- > Startup/cotnrol supply regulators > Output rectifiers > Chopper control for the 2 main choppers > Switching regulator control and choppers (PIC6xxx series devices) for the > +12V, +7.5V and -12V supplies > Overvoltage and overcurrent shutdown > Init/PowerOK circuit > > > The PIC6xxx chips are basically a darlington pair chopper transistor, the > flywheel diode and a few resistors in one can. I think I managed to find > data for them on the web somwehre. > > > Thanks, I'm glad my PSU is still working. I've had enough trouble with the 9845A PSU, which is only as half as complex, although the functional modules are the same. >> flash in a special pattern sequence during power-up, and then stay all >> on (I actually don't know whether this indicates success or failure). >> > > The LEDs monitor 4 supply lines in the unit : > 1) +Vdrv (+ve supply to the chopper driver from the startup supply) > 2) +5V sense (main +5V output) > 3) VPrtSense (Printer supply) > 4) -8V (-ve supply for the control circuit) > > All should be on if the supply is working ccorrectly. > > > >> The power supply unit in the monitor has a similar LED indicator, after >> finishing power-up, only the rightmost LED is on, which indicates >> success (at least that's what the manual says). How is it in your system? >> > > The mono monitor doesn't have its own mains supply, it runs off assorted > voltages from the CPU box supply. Of coruse it does generate the HV for > the CRT from the flyback transformer as usual. > > > That's interesting, so even the fast mono graphics monitor is powered by the mainframe PSU. By the way, do you have an idea how to build a home-brew startup fixure? I guess the only signals which are really important are the NP and the NL signals. The first resets the address registers of the alpha circuit and grabs the fist word from the crt buffer in block 1, the other probably initiates another PPU bus arbitration for grabbing one complete line of text from the crt buffer in block 1. Maybe in absence of a crt the alpha circuit makes some kind of continuous bus capture and the whole system hangs. And maybe the mainframe can run even without crt when NP and NL are both pulled up to logical 1. Two resistors would then be enough. Another probably important signal is the HALT-signal, from which the PPU knows it's the PPU and not the LPU, and which is generated by the alpha circuit but probably triggered by the NP signal. -Ansgar From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 17:44:30 2005 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (maurice smulders) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:44:30 -0700 Subject: Waht is an MC1806 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d9403580510301544o6318f396s8cba0034bdc1b361@mail.gmail.com> Tony, http://www.datasheetarchive.com/datasheet/pdf/13246.html Kind regards, Maurice On 10/30/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > The Subject: line says it all really, but perhaps I should give a little > more explanation. > > I am working on an HP59405, which is the HPIB interface for the HP9830 > 'calculator'. On the PCB are 2 chips which cross to something called an > MC1806. This is not in any of my Motorola databooks. > > What I have determined (I think) so far : > > 1) 14 pin DIL package, power on 14, ground on 7 as usual. > > 2) Seems to be a quad 2-input device, pinout as the 7400 -- that is, > inputs on 1 and 2, output on 3, etc. > > 3) Seems to be DTL in that the output directly drives the base of an NPN > transsistor, the emitter of which is grounded. > > 4) The most logical (!) function would be a quad 2 input NOR gate. Maybe > an AND gate? > > Does anyone have a databook that lists it? > > -tony > > From rp018q4938 at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Oct 30 15:52:21 2005 From: rp018q4938 at blueyonder.co.uk (Roger Pugh) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:52:21 +0000 Subject: Paper as History Logging medium: new Book In-Reply-To: <010c01c5dd98$2d069220$6401a8c0@ibm23xhr06> References: <010c01c5dd98$2d069220$6401a8c0@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <7c7dc81df8386a59a7c689e1cc9de743@blueyonder.co.uk> Hi.. this book was first published about a year ago.. perhaps this is the second edition. Its a good book with lots of photos of 70's 80's 90's micro's. Not too informative and not much detail but a good coffee table book, always good for a flick through. I would recommend it roger On 30 Oct 2005, at 21:23, John Allain wrote: > How about this for a new book? > > "Digital Retro : > The Evolution and Design of the Personal Computer" > by Gordon Laing > > Amazon.com informs me that it was published just three weeks ago. > Wonder if anyone here has seen it yet? > A reviewer says its set up as Amstrad to Zenith, with photos, > might be kind of fluffy. > > John A. > From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun Oct 30 16:48:25 2005 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:48:25 +0000 Subject: Paper as History Logging medium: new Book In-Reply-To: <010c01c5dd98$2d069220$6401a8c0@ibm23xhr06> References: <010c01c5dd98$2d069220$6401a8c0@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <43654DB9.4040003@gifford.co.uk> John Allain wrote: > How about this for a new book? > > "Digital Retro : > The Evolution and Design of the Personal Computer" > by Gordon Laing > > Amazon.com informs me that it was published just three weeks ago. > Wonder if anyone here has seen it yet? Are you sure that date is correct? I bought a copy in a bookshop here about a year ago. > A reviewer says its set up as Amstrad to Zenith, with photos, > might be kind of fluffy. It's mostly photos, yes. Not a great deal of technical info. Sometimes doesn't even tell you which microprocessor the computer runs on. Very nice photos, though, and some of them taken at the Museum of Computing in Swindon. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From cheri-post at web.de Mon Oct 31 00:37:18 2005 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:37:18 +0200 Subject: ID: Memorex 3266? Message-ID: <987402551@web.de> Toresbe, the documents I found at my place are the following: - BT3200 Series 324x/326x/328x MagneticTape Controller: Logic Diagrams (schematics) - BT3200 Series 324x/326x/328x MagneticTape Controller: Theory of Operation Manual - BT3200 Series 324x/326x/328x MagneticTape Subsystem: Installation Manual √ - BT3200 Series 324x/326x/328x MagneticTape Subsystem: Maintenance Manual √ - BT3200 Series 324x/326x/328x MagneticTape Unit: Theory of Operation Manual They are Unisys labeled, but actually, they are Fujitsu 2436 drives. Installation and Maintenance Manuals afre already scanned in. They are somewhere on my DVDs, give me some time to look up where they are and I can send them to you. Regards, Pierre > > Hey, I've come across a Memorex 3266 half-inch tape drive (well, > actually several, but only one seems near to operable condition). > > picture: http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/3266.jpeg > > Anyone recognize it and know what densities and interface(s) it used? > Guesses are also appreciated ;) It's an autoloader, right? > > I've been googling, and also bitsavers has nothing on it. Grateful for > any hints. > > -toresbe > ______________________________________________________________ Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS! Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193 From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 31 02:26:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:26:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 128 computers available in Summit, New Jersey Message-ID: Sorry, I lost the details, but Lou Helfer in Summit, New Jersey, has some Commodore 128 systems to give away. Several I think. Contact Lou for details. Reply-to: lhelfer at comcast.net -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Mon Oct 31 03:47:27 2005 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:47:27 +0000 Subject: Wildcat 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4365E82F.2090309@retrobbs.org> Gary Sparkes wrote: >Anyone ever hear of / use wildcat 4? I just found an old copy my dad pirated >+ a sysop manual he ripped off of someone in a box of books he had... > >Anything anyone can tell me about it? :) > >Heh, oldskool BBS piracy in my own hands :) > > > > > > I used to run it. (I think it was version 4). In fact, I still have my last backup of it on a cd somewhere, minus the messages unfortunately. It was one of about a dozen packages I ran, and probably the best. My "friend" bought it for me. She drove me crazy because she didn't like the homebrew software I ran. I went back to my software after a while. I don't care how nice a package is, it's better to write your own, then if something bugs you you can change it. Mark From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Oct 31 06:46:03 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:46:03 -0500 Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: <200510310618.BAA20314@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <058E0C58-4908-11DA-971E-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> <200510310618.BAA20314@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20051031074603.3ed77482.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 01:13:21 -0500 (EST) der Mouse wrote: > >> Actually I am trying to think of anything I own and depend on (or > >> even use actively) that I am not capable of repairing.... > > Your PC's harddisk, > > Tony doesn't have a "PC" (he's stated this often enough that even I > have managed to remeber it - even if I've misremembered, I'm quite sure > he does not "depend on" one) and quite likely does not have, and surely > does not depend on, a modern "harddisk" - by which I mean one with > effectively unrepairable electronics (by heavy dependence on > undocumented ASICs) and a sealed and approximately unrepairable > head/platter assembly. > Correct. As Tony has said, he has a PC-AT with one of those CPU-update modules that makes it an 80486 system. > > Also the same is true for the computer CPU's. > > Not for most (all, probably, given his statement) of Tony's machines. > > > You do not want a FIB machine so you had a chance to repair the IC > > itself. > > This too is quite likely not true of Tony, I would hazard a guess - > possibly excepting reasons of physical space. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 31 07:19:34 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:19:34 +0000 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <43640BC6.8030707@gmail.com> References: <200510281902400322.0C771EFB@10.0.0.252> <43640BC6.8030707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <436619E6.70108@yahoo.co.uk> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > The CPU racks of my ES/9021 are on casters and they are quite large and > water-cooled. water-cooled casters? They expected you to mve the thing at high speed, huh? ;-) From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Oct 31 08:24:13 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:24:13 -0500 Subject: installing new ethernet address equipment with VMS 6.1 References: <003901c5dda6$2dc85320$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <17254.10509.695000.700046@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "arcarlini" == arcarlini writes: arcarlini> Adrian Graham wrote: >> Yep, we look after a national chain's DEC kit and DECservers from >> the later years of DEC have 00-00-F8 as the mac address, I think >> it might've been once the networking side had been sold to >> Cabletron but don't quote me on that. arcarlini> I have some DE500-something-or-other PCI ethernet cards arcarlini> that use 00-00-F8 so they are definitely pre-Cabletron and arcarlini> pre-HP and (IIRC) pre-COMPAQ. That fits; the 00-00-F8 OUI was issued to DEC when it was still DEC -- maybe around 1992 or so. That was during the time when FDDI development was going fast and furious (i.e., before Fast Ethernet really took hold). I had forgotten about MAC address assignments from that block. But it makes sense; large chunks of the 08-00-2B block had already been issued, and it may have been some specialized assignment. I no longer have the address database file (left that at DEC, it wasn't a public database...) paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 31 07:28:31 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:28:31 +0000 Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <200510302101.j9UL1oMU033465@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510302101.j9UL1oMU033465@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <43661BFF.2000101@yahoo.co.uk> Gil Carrick wrote: > Out museum has a fairly nice collection of networking technologies that > didn't make the cut when Ethernet Switching won the war. One thing we don?t > have is a sample of Econet. If anybody has a sample "under the stairs" that > they would consider parting with I would be happy to pay the postage to get > it here. Not right now, but I likely will have some spares (clock box, Econet modules for BBC micros etc.) at some point within the next year. I want to set up an Econet at Bletchley once things are more stable there, hence the reason I don't know what I'll have spare yet. I expect I could find you a couple of BBC micros if needs be too, although postage costs probably start going through the roof at that point! You might want to keep an eye out for other Econet-related bits in the meantime - Acorn Econet bridge, SJ Research Econet bridge, PC Econet card, Atom Econet card, Acorn Master Turbo (so you can run a fileserver) etc. as none of those are very common. Clock boxes and Econet modules for the BBC B / Master tend to turn up quite often in comparison. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 31 07:35:01 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:35:01 +0000 Subject: Paper as History Logging medium: new Book In-Reply-To: <43654DB9.4040003@gifford.co.uk> References: <010c01c5dd98$2d069220$6401a8c0@ibm23xhr06> <43654DB9.4040003@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <43661D85.5090105@yahoo.co.uk> John Honniball wrote: > John Allain wrote: > >> How about this for a new book? >> >> "Digital Retro : >> The Evolution and Design of the Personal Computer" >> by Gordon Laing >> Amazon.com informs me that it was published just three weeks ago. >> Wonder if anyone here has seen it yet? > > > Are you sure that date is correct? I bought a copy > in a bookshop here about a year ago. Yep, my memory is that they came round to take photos of stuff around a year ago. It's certainly been out for quite a while. I think there was talk of a second edition sometime, but I haven't heard anything about that for a while. >> A reviewer says its set up as Amstrad to Zenith, with photos, >> might be kind of fluffy. > > It's mostly photos, yes. Not a great deal of technical > info. Sometimes doesn't even tell you which microprocessor > the computer runs on. Very nice photos, though, and some > of them taken at the Museum of Computing in Swindon. Yep, some are from Swindon, most of them are ours (Bletchley), and a handful were from private collections. The plan was always for a coffee table type of book, so there's not much technical info in there at all. I seem to remember it was something of an oddball list too when they were initially looking for machines - there were some surprising things on there, whilst several important machines seemed to be missing. Annoyingly (as a couple of my own machines are in there) I've never actually seen a copy except for a 30 second flick through once! cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 31 07:43:29 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:43:29 +0000 Subject: Yet another idea for recovering the data from Series80 tapes In-Reply-To: <20051030233320.E31012010B41@mail.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20051030233320.E31012010B41@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <43661F81.7010205@yahoo.co.uk> Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > "Joe R." wrote: > >>FWIW I tested about a dozen tapes a few years ago and about 4 failed >>on the first pass, about that many failed in the next few days and >>only one lasted a week. > > > The tapes stick unto themselves, so it is a good idea to unwind them slowly > rather than perform a retention (CTAPE) which is a violent and abusive > treatment for a tape that is ready to fall apart. You know, given the sticking aspect, does running old tapes through some gadget tht's completely submerged in some cleansing liquid make sense? It presumably wouldn't be that hard to take the mechanical side of an old tape drive and stick it in some form of bath, with belt drive to a motor outside of the bath to do a slow pass. Presumably the magnetic data would survive happily. The only issue is properly drying the tape out afterwards before use. Of course it depends on the cause of the stickyness. If it's total decay of some aspect of the tape's construction then it'll probably destroy the tape during cleaning. If it's due to some surface-level problem (out-gassing or external contaminants, say) then maybe the cleaning's useful and will result in a tape that can at least be read long enough to get the data off... Idle thoughts for the morning anyway! :) cheers Jules From rws at ripco.com Mon Oct 31 09:01:15 2005 From: rws at ripco.com (Richard Schauer) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:01:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: Chicago-area DECies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, Julian Wolfe wrote: > Really! What machines do you own? Well, nothing terribly interesting, depending on your perspective :-) In terms of DEC stuff, I have a VAX-11/780 with the Unibus extension cabinet, a VAX-11/750, a VAX 6000-530, a PDP-11/44, 4 of some flavor of Vaxstation (3100?) that I haven't had a chance to do anything with yet, a Microvax 2, a PDP-11/83 in the little tower case, and all sorts of peripherals, like a TS11, TU80+, all sorts of RL02 and RA80 drives, an RP06, an RP07, an HSC (can't remember the model) with star coupler, an LA120, and other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting. Like I said, nothing really worth writing home about, but at least it was all free for the hauling. In other stuff, I have a complete IBM System/36 (5360) system (CPU, 3262 printer, 8809 tape drive, displays, other bits), a complete System/34 (same setup), a Valid Data Systems CAD arrangement that I haven't done anything with yet, several large plotters including a Benson photoplotter, a couple hundred micros (some of just about everything but not much of anything- TRS-80, Timex Sinclair, Apple, Commodore, CP/M stuff like Kaypro and Osborne, lots of Intel and Teradyne Multibus stuff, Unix-running jobs like AT&T 7300's and an NCR Tower, and of course loads of IBM stuff). Most acquired for free or cheap from hamfests. Richard Schauer From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Mon Oct 31 10:05:47 2005 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:05:47 -0500 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <200510291808000550.0216D76B@10.0.0.252> References: <43640B72.3050601@gmail.com> <200510291808000550.0216D76B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <88AC1FDA-4A1F-47B0-8CEE-977B533C4852@mind-to-mind.com> On Oct 29, 2005, at 9:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The problem of display (using 1970's technology) is more thorny. > Kanji > symbols are quite complex and detailed, requiring very good video > displays > and character generation. Printing presents its own issues. > While the US > and Europe was quite happy with 9-pin dot matrix printheads, the > Japanese > of necessity introduced 18 and 22 wire printheads to deal with the > problem > of Kanji character generation. Daisy-wheel technology was clearly > not an > alternative! I've seen a Japanese typewriter... quite a beast! FWIW. The early NEC PC9801 was very much like the IBM PC of the time, but with some strange omissions/changes in the BIOS (which, when disassembled had a marked similarity to the IBM PC BIOS), like routines for displaying characters. Instead they had a 16 bit VRAM that you wrote to directly... and you could do some really interesting things in that space, like doing simple character animations etc. The one Japanese machine I'd love to get my hands on would be one of the 5th generation computing projects prolog machines... the Japanese response to Symbolics LISP machines (Symbolics ended up belonging to Shin Nitetsu or somesuch from memory). There was a purple one that NEC made (I think), about the size of Sun E250. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 31 10:37:33 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:37:33 -0800 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <88AC1FDA-4A1F-47B0-8CEE-977B533C4852@mind-to-mind.com> References: <43640B72.3050601@gmail.com> <200510291808000550.0216D76B@10.0.0.252> <88AC1FDA-4A1F-47B0-8CEE-977B533C4852@mind-to-mind.com> Message-ID: <200510310837330515.0A903A8F@10.0.0.252> A bit of Japanese computer history that gets very little play here in the US (and I suspect, in other places) is the Japanese TRON project. Started in 1984, it was intended as an all-encompassing architecture for everything from commercial data processing to embedded systems: http://tronweb.super-nova.co.jp/homepage.html For those of you who are curious, there's a CTRON kernel available for x86 and 6809 at: http://www.sakamura-lab.org/TRON/CTRON/home.html Cheers, Chuck From bob at jfcl.com Mon Oct 31 11:00:50 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:00:50 -0800 Subject: Need help configuring DZQ11s on 2.11BSD for VCF! Message-ID: <003501c5de3c$a96575d0$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> Hi Guys, Debee is depending on me to get this PDP-11 working for VCF this weekend (she's speaking on Sunday!). I've got a 11/73 with 2.11BSD. The hardware configuration is pretty typical - RQDX3, DEQNA, TK50, and one DZQ11. Everything runs fine, but I need to install a second DZQ. The first DZQ has csr 160100 and vector 300, so according to my calculations the second should be at 160110 and vector 310. I set the switches, install the card, and then edit my system configuration to change NDZ to be 2, rebuild the kernel, reboot, and, .... Disappointment! When it gets up to init, it says: init: configure system dz 0 csr 160100 vector 300 attached ra 0 .... 172150 .... 154 tms 0 .... 174500 ... 260 ... etc ... nothing about the second DZQ. Everything else still works, including the original DZQ11, and it boots up just fine except that there's no sign of the second DZQ11. I figured I made a mistake building the kernel, so I double check my kernel configuration and yes, the file dz.h contains "#define NDZ 2". Just to be safe I delete all the objects from my machine's configuration directory and rebuild the entire kernel from sources (takes a couple of hours on a 11/73!). Still no joy - init only finds one DZ... And I'm sure I'm booting the new kernel because of the timestamp it prints out when you boot it. At this point I figured it's a hardware problem. Just to be sure, I pulled out both DZQs and swapped the switch settings on the two cards. This makes the original DZQ card now the "second" one at 160110/310 and the new card the "first" DZQ at 160100/300. Put it all back together and boot it up again - same results! Init finds the first DZ but not the second! Moreover, all the serial ports on the back that are now connected to dz0 (which is the card that used to be the second dz) still work! Of course, the ports on dz 1 (which is the card that used to work) are now dead. It seems like the two DZQ11 cards must be OK. Oh, and BTW, I even used the 11/73's console ODT to verify that all addresses from 17760100 to 17760117 respond. The only explanation I'm left with is a configuration problem. Is there something I don't know about rebuilding the 2.11bsd kernel? Is 160110/310 the wrong location for the second DZQ11? Thanks much, any suggestions are appreciated. Bob Armstrong From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Oct 31 11:15:48 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:15:48 -0800 Subject: Need help configuring DZQ11s on 2.11BSD for VCF! In-Reply-To: <003501c5de3c$a96575d0$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> References: <003501c5de3c$a96575d0$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> Message-ID: Bob, At 9:00 AM -0800 10/31/05, Robert Armstrong wrote: > The only explanation I'm left with is a configuration problem. Is there >something I don't know about rebuilding the 2.11bsd kernel? Is 160110/310 >the wrong location for the second DZQ11? I don't know BSD at all and can't verify the CSR/vector above without looking some things up, but... on many Unix systems you need to make the device files (/dev/tty???) that correspond to the terminal lines. Has this been done? Although perhaps this needs to wait until init sees the device? John From bob at jfcl.com Mon Oct 31 11:25:38 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:25:38 -0800 Subject: Need help configuring DZQ11s on 2.11BSD for VCF! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003b01c5de40$20534b10$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> > I don't know BSD at all and can't verify the CSR/vector above without > looking some things up, but... on many Unix systems you need to make > the device files (/dev/tty???) that correspond to the terminal lines. > Has this been done? Although perhaps this needs to wait until init > sees the device? > Thanks, John - good point. I didn't mention it in my original posting, but I already did this too. The script is called MAKEDEV and it creates the /dev/ttynn nodes - in this case tty08..tty15. All the /dev/ttyxx entries are there but none of them on the second dz work - they give "device not configured" errors when you access them. BTW, as far as I know it's tty08..tty15 because 2.11BSD thinks it's talking to a DZ11 (i.e. UNIBUS, not QBUS) and DZ11 cards have eight lines each. AFAIK it doesn't matter because the software interface for the DZ and DZQ is the same except for the missing lines. Certainly there's nothing I can find in 2.11BSD or 4.3BSD about a special driver or setting for DZQs only. So I would expect the first DZQ to be tty0..tty03 and the second one to be tty08..tty11. In any case (as you said) I don't think it would prevent init from configuring the device, but I might be wrong :-) Thanks again, Bob From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Oct 31 11:26:14 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:26:14 +0000 Subject: Japanese computers In-Reply-To: <436619E6.70108@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200510281902400322.0C771EFB@10.0.0.252> <43640BC6.8030707@gmail.com> <436619E6.70108@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <436653B6.2050803@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > The CPU racks of my ES/9021 are on casters and they are quite large and > >> water-cooled. > > > water-cooled casters? They expected you to mve the thing at high speed, > huh? ;-) > It's not actually in a rack. It's bolted onto brackets in the back of a Nissan Micra. Gordon. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 31 11:31:52 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 12:31:52 -0500 Subject: FS/FT: IBM S/390 parts Message-ID: <200510311231.52778.pat@computer-refuge.org> I've got 3 x QX46 512MB memory modules from my old 9672-RC4. Asking $10+shipping apiece. Also have a few (4-5?) 4-port ESCON cards, each has a Siemens 100MHz optical transceiver on it, if you want it for parts. Asking $5/board + shipping. I don't have the aluminum frame they came in any more, they're just the PCB part of the module. No responses by Wednesday and they'll be off to the scrapper. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Oct 31 14:52:22 2005 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 12:52:22 -0800 Subject: Need help configuring DZQ11s on 2.11BSD for VCF! In-Reply-To: <003b01c5de40$20534b10$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> References: <003b01c5de40$20534b10$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <43668406.3040802@mindspring.com> When I brought up my 11/44 with 2.11BSD I also had to fiddle with the /etc/dtab file, which allocates CSRs/VECTORs to devices (ie, tells the s/w what you did to the hardware). Your second DZQ is probably being probed by s/w as a floating device (160070 ??) or at least not at the address you have the h/w set to. I had to change the /etc/dtab entry for my first DZ11 to 160100/300 from 160100/310 to be compatible with SIMH (I don't configure the TU58 at 176500/300 under SIMH and/or 2.11BSD). Don North Robert Armstrong wrote: >>I don't know BSD at all and can't verify the CSR/vector above without >>looking some things up, but... on many Unix systems you need to make >>the device files (/dev/tty???) that correspond to the terminal lines. >>Has this been done? Although perhaps this needs to wait until init >>sees the device? >> >> >> > > Thanks, John - good point. I didn't mention it in my original posting, >but I already did this too. The script is called MAKEDEV and it creates the >/dev/ttynn nodes - in this case tty08..tty15. All the /dev/ttyxx entries >are there but none of them on the second dz work - they give "device not >configured" errors when you access them. > > BTW, as far as I know it's tty08..tty15 because 2.11BSD thinks it's >talking to a DZ11 (i.e. UNIBUS, not QBUS) and DZ11 cards have eight lines >each. AFAIK it doesn't matter because the software interface for the DZ and >DZQ is the same except for the missing lines. Certainly there's nothing I >can find in 2.11BSD or 4.3BSD about a special driver or setting for DZQs >only. > > So I would expect the first DZQ to be tty0..tty03 and the second one to be >tty08..tty11. In any case (as you said) I don't think it would prevent init >from configuring the device, but I might be wrong :-) > >Thanks again, >Bob > > > > > > From kth at srv.net Mon Oct 31 15:12:02 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:12:02 -0700 Subject: Need help configuring DZQ11s on 2.11BSD for VCF! In-Reply-To: <003501c5de3c$a96575d0$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> References: <003501c5de3c$a96575d0$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <436688A2.8020008@srv.net> Robert Armstrong wrote: >Hi Guys, > > Debee is depending on me to get this PDP-11 working for VCF this weekend >(she's speaking on Sunday!). I've got a 11/73 with 2.11BSD. The hardware >configuration is pretty typical - RQDX3, DEQNA, TK50, and one DZQ11. >Everything runs fine, but I need to install a second DZQ. The first DZQ has >csr 160100 and vector 300, so according to my calculations the second should >be at 160110 and vector 310. I set the switches, install the card, and then >edit my system configuration to change NDZ to be 2, rebuild the kernel, >reboot, and, .... Disappointment! > > When it gets up to init, it says: > > init: configure system > dz 0 csr 160100 vector 300 attached > ra 0 .... 172150 .... 154 > tms 0 .... 174500 ... 260 > ... etc ... > >nothing about the second DZQ. Everything else still works, including the >original DZQ11, and it boots up just fine except that there's no sign of the >second DZQ11. > > I figured I made a mistake building the kernel, so I double check my >kernel configuration and yes, the file dz.h contains "#define NDZ 2". Just >to be safe I delete all the objects from my machine's configuration >directory and rebuild the entire kernel from sources (takes a couple of >hours on a 11/73!). Still no joy - init only finds one DZ... And I'm sure >I'm booting the new kernel because of the timestamp it prints out when you >boot it. > > At this point I figured it's a hardware problem. Just to be sure, I >pulled out both DZQs and swapped the switch settings on the two cards. This >makes the original DZQ card now the "second" one at 160110/310 and the new >card the "first" DZQ at 160100/300. Put it all back together and boot it up >again - same results! Init finds the first DZ but not the second! Moreover, >all the serial ports on the back that are now connected to dz0 (which is the >card that used to be the second dz) still work! Of course, the ports on dz >1 (which is the card that used to work) are now dead. It seems like the two >DZQ11 cards must be OK. > > Oh, and BTW, I even used the 11/73's console ODT to verify that all >addresses from 17760100 to 17760117 respond. > > The only explanation I'm left with is a configuration problem. Is there >something I don't know about rebuilding the 2.11bsd kernel? Is 160110/310 >the wrong location for the second DZQ11? > > Thanks much, any suggestions are appreciated. > >Bob Armstrong > > > > > > > According to the VMS configuration routine: $ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:SYSGEN SYSGEN> CONFIGURE DEVICE> RQDX3 %SYSGEN-I-EQV_NOTICE, equivalent name - device RQDX3 will be output as UDA DEVICE> DEQNA %SYSGEN-I-EQV_NOTICE, equivalent name - device DEQNA will be output as QNA DEVICE> TK50 %SYSGEN-I-EQV_NOTICE, equivalent name - device TK50 will be output as TU81 DEVICE> dz11,2 DEVICE> Exit Device: UDA Name: PUA CSR: 772150 Vector: 154 Support: yes Device: TU81 Name: PTA CSR: 774500 Vector: 260 Support: yes Device: QNA Name: XQA CSR: 774440 Vector: 120 Support: yes Device: DZ11 Name: TTA CSR: 760100* Vector: 300* Support: yes Device: DZ11 Name: TTB CSR: 760110* Vector: 310* Support: yes SYSGEN> Which looks like you think it should. CONFIGURE only accepts UNIBUS devices, so I'm assuming that the QBUS version of the DZ is configured the same as the UNIBUS version. iirc, the 11/73 has a simple boot console that has some commands similiar to the VAX console commands. This is before you drop to ODT. Normally you give it a "B du0" type of command. (Been a while since I used real hardware, so ymmv) Does the boot console (SHOW DEVICE?) display the devices? From bob at jfcl.com Mon Oct 31 15:47:28 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:47:28 -0800 Subject: Need help configuring DZQ11s on 2.11BSD for VCF! In-Reply-To: <43668406.3040802@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <006301c5de64$b4634e30$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> You're right - adding the second dzq11 to /etc/dtab fixes the problem. Thanks! Bob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don North > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 12:52 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Need help configuring DZQ11s on 2.11BSD for VCF! > > > When I brought up my 11/44 with 2.11BSD I also had to fiddle with the > /etc/dtab file, which allocates CSRs/VECTORs to devices (ie, > tells the > s/w what you did to the hardware). Your second DZQ is probably being > probed by s/w as a floating device (160070 ??) or at least not at the > address you have the h/w set to. > > I had to change the /etc/dtab entry for my first DZ11 to > 160100/300 from > 160100/310 to be compatible with SIMH (I don't configure the TU58 at > 176500/300 under SIMH and/or 2.11BSD). > > Don North > > Robert Armstrong wrote: > > >>I don't know BSD at all and can't verify the CSR/vector > above without > >>looking some things up, but... on many Unix systems you > need to make > >>the device files (/dev/tty???) that correspond to the > terminal lines. > >>Has this been done? Although perhaps this needs to wait until init > >>sees the device? > >> > >> > >> > > > > Thanks, John - good point. I didn't mention it in my original > >posting, but I already did this too. The script is called > MAKEDEV and > >it creates the /dev/ttynn nodes - in this case tty08..tty15. > All the > >/dev/ttyxx entries are there but none of them on the second > dz work - > >they give "device not configured" errors when you access them. > > > > BTW, as far as I know it's tty08..tty15 because 2.11BSD > thinks it's > >talking to a DZ11 (i.e. UNIBUS, not QBUS) and DZ11 cards have eight > >lines each. AFAIK it doesn't matter because the software > interface for > >the DZ and DZQ is the same except for the missing lines. Certainly > >there's nothing I can find in 2.11BSD or 4.3BSD about a > special driver > >or setting for DZQs only. > > > > So I would expect the first DZQ to be tty0..tty03 and the > second one > >to be tty08..tty11. In any case (as you said) I don't think > it would > >prevent init from configuring the device, but I might be wrong :-) > > > >Thanks again, > >Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 31 16:00:43 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:00:43 -0800 Subject: Need help configuring DZQ11s on 2.11BSD for VCF! In-Reply-To: <436688A2.8020008@srv.net> References: <003501c5de3c$a96575d0$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> <436688A2.8020008@srv.net> Message-ID: At 2:12 PM -0700 10/31/05, Kevin Handy wrote: >iirc, the 11/73 has a simple boot console that has some commands >similiar to the VAX console commands. This is before you drop >to ODT. Normally you give it a "B du0" type of command. >(Been a while since I used real hardware, so ymmv) >Does the boot console (SHOW DEVICE?) display the devices? It will depend on the board as to just how much info you're able to get from the console on a PDP-11. The full quad-height board (which seems to be much rarer), will have lots of features, and might be able to give some info on the devices (it's been a couple years since I did anything other than boot mine). The more normal dual-height board will depend on the board with the boot strap. As an example, my /73 originally used a dual-height board, and I used a DLV11J for the console port, and a WQESD/04 for the boot strap (even after I moved from ESDI to SCSI disks). With that combo, I had a working system, but it provided no info, just a bootstrap. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Oct 31 16:07:03 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:07:03 +0000 Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43669587.8080507@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>If you don't want another PC because you lack space, now there is >>something I can really understand ! > > > Yes, there is always that :-). I am having peoblems finding space for the > PX8 I bought the other week... Epson PX-8? (clears a roughly PX-8-size space) I can think of somewhere... Gordon. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Oct 31 16:11:13 2005 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:11:13 -0800 Subject: Need help configuring DZQ11s on 2.11BSD for VCF! In-Reply-To: <43668406.3040802@mindspring.com> References: <003b01c5de40$20534b10$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> <43668406.3040802@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <43669681.6050404@mindspring.com> So if I run sysgen is /usr/sbin I get: donorth[208] sysgen Type device names one per line, optionally followed by a comma and a repeat count. Finish with EOF. dz11,2 uda,1 tmscp,1 deqna,1 Table of standard DEC assignments for configuration: DEVICE CSR VECTOR ------------------------- DZ11 760070* 0300* DZ11 760100* 0310* UDA 772150 0154 TMSCP 774500 0260 DEQNA 774440 0120 CSRs and vectors marked '*' are in floating space. So it looks like maybe the 2.11BSD autoconfig is only really finding your second DZ11 and not the first? Don North wrote: > When I brought up my 11/44 with 2.11BSD I also had to fiddle with the > /etc/dtab file, which allocates CSRs/VECTORs to devices (ie, tells the > s/w what you did to the hardware). Your second DZQ is probably being > probed by s/w as a floating device (160070 ??) or at least not at the > address you have the h/w set to. > > I had to change the /etc/dtab entry for my first DZ11 to 160100/300 > from 160100/310 to be compatible with SIMH (I don't configure the TU58 > at 176500/300 under SIMH and/or 2.11BSD). > > Don North > > Robert Armstrong wrote: > >>> I don't know BSD at all and can't verify the CSR/vector above >>> without looking some things up, but... on many Unix systems you >>> need to make the device files (/dev/tty???) that correspond to the >>> terminal lines. Has this been done? Although perhaps this needs to >>> wait until init sees the device? >>> >>> >> >> >> Thanks, John - good point. I didn't mention it in my original posting, >> but I already did this too. The script is called MAKEDEV and it >> creates the >> /dev/ttynn nodes - in this case tty08..tty15. All the /dev/ttyxx >> entries >> are there but none of them on the second dz work - they give "device >> not >> configured" errors when you access them. >> >> BTW, as far as I know it's tty08..tty15 because 2.11BSD thinks it's >> talking to a DZ11 (i.e. UNIBUS, not QBUS) and DZ11 cards have eight >> lines >> each. AFAIK it doesn't matter because the software interface for the >> DZ and >> DZQ is the same except for the missing lines. Certainly there's >> nothing I >> can find in 2.11BSD or 4.3BSD about a special driver or setting for DZQs >> only. >> >> So I would expect the first DZQ to be tty0..tty03 and the second one >> to be >> tty08..tty11. In any case (as you said) I don't think it would >> prevent init >> from configuring the device, but I might be wrong :-) >> >> Thanks again, >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> > > From bob at jfcl.com Mon Oct 31 16:16:51 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:16:51 -0800 Subject: Need help configuring DZQ11s on 2.11BSD for VCF! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006501c5de68$cbdf47e0$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> > It will depend on the board as to just how much info you're able to > get from the console on a PDP-11. About the best you can do with a PDP-11, even a fairly "modern" one like a 11/73, is to use console ODT to see if the device CSRs respond. I've never seen a PDP-11 microcode or boot ROM with anything even close to "SHOW DEVICE". Bob From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 31 16:17:41 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:17:41 -0600 Subject: whatsit?? Old stuff, bench electronics? Radio? I dunno. Message-ID: <009601c5de68$e9891f50$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Quite some time ago I got this stuff from my high school, I believe it came from the physics department. I mentioned it on the list and some expressed interest in pictures. Just now got around to it. See http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/whatsit Should I pitch this stuff? Anyone know what it is? Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 31 16:34:20 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:34:20 -0600 Subject: HP M series keyswitch available Message-ID: <00b301c5de6b$3cded2b0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I have the keyswitch from a 2105/2108/2112 type system available, snagged it from the trash. This is the key switch style that has an "R" position (ie. an electronic keyswitch, not just a mechanical one). This is the 3 or 4 layer discs with a cord and molex-style connector that goes to the power supply. No key, no keyhole, just the switch assembly itself with cord and connector. I have no M machines with that style keyswitch (mine have all been 'upgraded' to the mechanical keyswitch). Price... 1xpostage+postage. I would expect postage to be like... 2 bucks. Jay From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Oct 31 16:49:56 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:49:56 -0600 Subject: whatsit?? Old stuff, bench electronics? Radio? I dunno. In-Reply-To: <009601c5de68$e9891f50$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: Seems like that's some front-end for some other test equipment, or maybe some electrical measurement equipment. In any case, the gauges have to be worth something. The idea of using a plain 3 prong extension cord as a power cord is kinda neat too. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 4:18 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: whatsit?? Old stuff, bench electronics? Radio? I dunno. Quite some time ago I got this stuff from my high school, I believe it came from the physics department. I mentioned it on the list and some expressed interest in pictures. Just now got around to it. See http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/whatsit Should I pitch this stuff? Anyone know what it is? Jay From gilcarrick at comcast.net Mon Oct 31 17:03:28 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:03:28 -0600 Subject: whatsit?? Old stuff, bench electronics? Radio? I dunno. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200510312314.j9VNEEuP060841@keith.ezwind.net> Looks like a bunch of old power supplies to me. Gil ... > Quite some time ago I got this stuff from my high school, I > believe it came from the physics department. I mentioned it > on the list and some expressed interest in pictures. Just now > got around to it. > > See http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/whatsit > > Should I pitch this stuff? Anyone know what it is? > > Jay > > > From gilcarrick at comcast.net Mon Oct 31 17:05:25 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:05:25 -0600 Subject: FS/FT: IBM S/390 parts In-Reply-To: <200510311231.52778.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200510312316.j9VNG2Vp060889@keith.ezwind.net> If I can get 1 escon card that would be great. Do you have a PayPal account? Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 11:32 AM > To: The Rescue List; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: FS/FT: IBM S/390 parts > > I've got 3 x QX46 512MB memory modules from my old 9672-RC4. > Asking $10+shipping apiece. > > Also have a few (4-5?) 4-port ESCON cards, each has a Siemens > 100MHz optical transceiver on it, if you want it for parts. > Asking $5/board + shipping. I don't have the aluminum frame > they came in any more, they're just the PCB part of the module. > > No responses by Wednesday and they'll be off to the scrapper. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From gilcarrick at comcast.net Mon Oct 31 17:06:46 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:06:46 -0600 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <200510210959390445.062DF09F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200510312317.j9VNHECL060897@keith.ezwind.net> SWTP being a Texas company they would go well in our museum. What are you looking for? Gil ... > Speaking of old stuff, when looking for something else, I ran > across the serial and RAM cards for the SWTP TV > Typewriter--are they worth anything or are they better used > as landfill material? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 31 17:24:38 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 15:24:38 -0800 Subject: whatsit?? Old stuff, bench electronics? Radio? I dunno. In-Reply-To: <200510312314.j9VNEEuP060841@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510312314.j9VNEEuP060841@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200510311524380212.0C04E9BF@10.0.0.252> On 10/31/2005 at 5:03 PM Gil Carrick wrote: >Looks like a bunch of old power supplies to me. > >Gil Yup, same here. Love the old analog meters, though. Perfect for a Frankenstein setup on Halloween! Caps are probably a little flat by now, so if you want to use these, you may want to use a variac, to bring the line voltage up slowly. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 31 17:31:35 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 15:31:35 -0800 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <200510312317.j9VNHECL060897@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200510312317.j9VNHECL060897@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200510311531350032.0C0B45DE@10.0.0.252> On 10/31/2005 at 5:06 PM Gil Carrick wrote: >SWTP being a Texas company they would go well in our museum. What are you >looking for? Gil, I'm not a collector. Just finding someone with a SWTP TVT that they're trying to get operational would be sufficient. I also have the assembly instructions and schematics. I've long since discarded the (very heavily modified) main board. One of the first changes I recall doing was modifying it to display 16 lines of 64 characters and recognize a few more control characters. Interestingly, that last was mostly done with diodes and pullups instead of TTL gates. Shortly after that, I graduated to a Beehive Super Bee terminal. The serial board has an NE555 installed on it with a small trimpot as a baud rate generator. IIRC, 7497's were pretty hard to come by back then. I think I've got a taker, for the cards, BTW. Just need to get them into a small Priority Mail box and off to the PO. Cheers, Chuck >... >> Speaking of old stuff, when looking for something else, I ran >> across the serial and RAM cards for the SWTP TV >> Typewriter--are they worth anything or are they better used >> as landfill material? >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> >> > >A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director >The Museum at CSE >University of Texas at Arlington >Department of Computer Science & Engineering >Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street >Arlington, TX 76019 >817-272-3620 >http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 31 16:31:57 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:31:57 +0000 Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43669B5D.7010909@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>>Unless you know what/where the fault is, you can't know you've fixed it >>>IMHO (I've explained the problems many times before). >> >>With a proper 'boardswapping guide' and strong documentation and >>training, the tech can be assured that the fault is isolated to the >>board in question. Then, as a _team_member_ he passes the faulty board > > > I fail to see how, at least without doing further tests and measurements > (some of which can be quite complicated). I've yet to see a system where > symptoms alone with determine the faulty module with 100% reliability. Yes, but I suppose in the field a company's not aiming for 100% reliability. If the amount of customers annoyed/inconvenienced by incorrect boardswaps is less than those annoyed by the time it takes for a 'proper' tech to diagnose the fault with their hardware then the boardswapping approach makes more business sense and keeps more of their customers happy. I know it's a shame it's like that - if I were in that field I'd much rather be tooling around in a van doing component-level fixes than doing it in a warehouse somewhere :) >>There need to be 'grunt' foot soldiers who know how to pull a board >>from the chassis, replace it with a known good board, and ship the board >>back to the repair depot where an expert will pinpoint the problem down >>to a specific chip and send feedback to engineering so the new Rev. J > > You know as well as I do that it doesn't work that way for most, if not > all, of the machines that _we_ work with, and probably never has. The > sort of failed servoids I've met just look at the symptoms, pull a part, > put a new one in, and hope the problem is cured. AFAIK the defective part > is _not_ analysed futher. Yes, that's the unfortunate problem with computing today (or any electronic consumer goods). People seem happy to just throw perfectly fixable stuff away because it's cheaper for a business to just pay someone to make more than it is to pay someone to fix the broken item. That seems incredibly stupid in the longer term, but who thinks long term any more... On the plus side it means people like most of the inhabitants of this list can get some pretty cool broken stuff for free and fix it for almost nothing except time... :) > Well, actually, I do refuse to use anything I don't properly understand, > but that is another issue. apart from your brain ;-) > Actually I am trying to think of anything I own and depend on (or even > use actively) that I am not capable of repairing.... I'd have problems > with a wristwatch, but pocket watches and clocks wouldn't be a problem. > Nor, for example, are real cameras. see above :) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 31 17:39:43 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 15:39:43 -0800 Subject: TX990 diskettes--recycle or useful? Message-ID: <200510311539430358.0C12B94C@10.0.0.252> Just ran across a box I thought had nothing but blank 8" diskettes and found instead 7 diskettes, labeled "TX990/TXDS Release 2.0"; diskettes 1-5, with what appears to be dupes of diskette 2-4. All are stamped "Property of Texas Instruments Incorporated" "(C) 1977, Texas Instruments Incorporated" Are these worth anything or can they be tossed into the "reuse" pile? I haven't tried reading them yet. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 31 17:59:23 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 18:59:23 -0500 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay Message-ID: <0IP900A6X18MC081@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 15:31:35 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/31/2005 at 5:06 PM Gil Carrick wrote: > >>SWTP being a Texas company they would go well in our museum. What are you >>looking for? > >Gil, I'm not a collector. Just finding someone with a SWTP TVT that >they're trying to get operational would be sufficient. I also have the >assembly instructions and schematics. > >I've long since discarded the (very heavily modified) main board. One of >the first changes I recall doing was modifying it to display 16 lines of 64 >characters and recognize a few more control characters. Interestingly, >that last was mostly done with diodes and pullups instead of TTL gates. >Shortly after that, I graduated to a Beehive Super Bee terminal. > >The serial board has an NE555 installed on it with a small trimpot as a >baud rate generator. IIRC, 7497's were pretty hard to come by back then. > >I think I've got a taker, for the cards, BTW. Just need to get them into a >small Priority Mail box and off to the PO. > >Cheers, >Chuck > >>... >>> Speaking of old stuff, when looking for something else, I ran >>> across the serial and RAM cards for the SWTP TV >>> Typewriter--are they worth anything or are they better used >>> as landfill material? Not landfill fur sure. I acutally have a working TVT and most of it's docs with same mods you did save for mine was interfaced as parallel to the Altair. Works ok with a modern LCD TV! Allison From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon Oct 31 18:31:24 2005 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:31:24 -0500 Subject: Need help configuring DZQ11s on 2.11BSD for VCF! In-Reply-To: <006501c5de68$cbdf47e0$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> References: <006501c5de68$cbdf47e0$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <4366B75C.8010904@nktelco.net> Robert Armstrong wrote: > About the best you can do with a PDP-11, even a fairly "modern" one like a >11/73, is to use console ODT to see if the device CSRs respond. I've never >seen a PDP-11 microcode or boot ROM with anything even close to "SHOW >DEVICE". > >Bob > Actually, the quad wide board QBUS based 11 (53 (?), some 73, 83, 84, 93, 94) boot roms do have the Map command that does a pretty good job of listing the addresses that are readable. Example dump from my KDJ11-B microPDP-11/73: Testing in progress - Please wait Memory Size is 4088 K Bytes 9 Step memory test Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Message 04 Entering Dialog mode Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test. Type a command then press the RETURN key: MAP 15.206 MHz CPU Options: FPA Memory Map Starting Ending Size in CSR CSR Bus Address address K Bytes address type type 00000000 - 07777776 2048 17772100 ECC PMI 10000000 - 17757776 2040 17772102 ECC PMI 17760334 - 17760336 17765000 - 17765776 CPU ROM or EEPROM 17772100 - 17772102 Memory CSR's 17772150 - 17772152 17772200 - 17772276 Supervisor I and D PDR/PAR's 17772300 - 17772376 Kernel I and D PDR/PAR's 17772516 MMR3 17772520 - 17772522 17773000 - 17773776 CPU ROM 17774440 - 17774456 17777170 - 17777172 17777520 - 17777524 BCSR, PCR, BCR/BDR 17777546 Clock CSR 17777560 - 17777566 Console SLU 17777572 - 17777576 MMR0,1,2 17777600 - 17777676 User I and D PDR/PAR's 17777744 - 17777752 MSER, CCR, MREG, Hit/Miss 17777766 CPU Error 17777772 PIRQ 17777776 PSW Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test. Type a command then press the RETURN key: It shows the address ranges for devices that are not part of the processor module but does not identify them. -chuck From allain at panix.com Mon Oct 31 18:36:33 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:36:33 -0500 Subject: whatsit?? Old stuff, bench electronics? Radio? I dunno. References: <009601c5de68$e9891f50$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <007101c5de7c$4f9e1bc0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Something to not pitch in ths era is any cloth insulated wiring. Not always easy to find. John A. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Oct 31 18:38:03 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:38:03 -0800 Subject: Need help configuring DZQ11s on 2.11BSD for VCF! In-Reply-To: <006501c5de68$cbdf47e0$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> References: <006501c5de68$cbdf47e0$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <200510311638.03791.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 31 October 2005 14:16, Robert Armstrong wrote: > > It will depend on the board as to just how much info you're able to > > get from the console on a PDP-11. > > About the best you can do with a PDP-11, even a fairly "modern" one like > a 11/73, is to use console ODT to see if the device CSRs respond. I've > never seen a PDP-11 microcode or boot ROM with anything even close to "SHOW > DEVICE". The closest thing is the MAP command from the boot PROM (11/73/83, etc.) - it will identify all devices it finds in the I/O page map. >From RT you can do a "show device" >From RSX MCR "DEV" or DCL "SHOW DEVICES" Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 31 18:07:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 00:07:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: <200510310618.BAA20314@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Oct 31, 5 01:13:21 am Message-ID: > > >> Actually I am trying to think of anything I own and depend on (or > >> even use actively) that I am not capable of repairing.... > > Your PC's harddisk, > > Tony doesn't have a "PC" (he's stated this often enough that even I Oh, but I do. Both in the sense of an IBM 5150 (albeit with the 64K-256K system board), and int he sense of a somewhat more modern IBM sort-of-compatible (this much-hacked PC/AT). What I don't have is a machine that runs current, modern, PC software (and nor do I want one). > have managed to remeber it - even if I've misremembered, I'm quite sure > he does not "depend on" one) and quite likely does not have, and surely > does not depend on, a modern "harddisk" - by which I mean one with I do not depend on a PC, I do not depend on the hard disk. > effectively unrepairable electronics (by heavy dependence on > undocumented ASICs) and a sealed and approximately unrepairable > head/platter assembly. > > > Also the same is true for the computer CPU's. > > Not for most (all, probably, given his statement) of Tony's machines. Alas many of my machines do have microprocessors in them. I even have a few machines with custom ASICs or bybrid modules for the processor. In another thread I've been discussing the HP9845. My HP9845B with high-speed language processor and enhanced mono monitor contains 3 procesors : The Peripheral Procesor Unit. A custom HP hybrid module The Language Processor Unit. 3 PCBs full of AMD 29xx bit-slice, PROMs, TTL The graphics processor. An HP ASIC But I don't depend on that machine, and can repair it to component (i.e. IC or hybrid module) level, even though there is no official documentation on doing this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 31 17:57:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:57:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 9845 C with 280 option startup failure In-Reply-To: <43653516.5090009@gmx.net> from "Tequi Lizer" at Oct 30, 5 10:03:18 pm Message-ID: > There is another difference, the 9845C were shipped with colored > functions keys ;-) What, all different colours, to indicate the colour that the text (or whatever) will appear on the monitor? The HH Tiger did that. > Thanks, I'm glad my PSU is still working. I've had enough trouble with > the 9845A PSU, which is only as half as complex, although the functional When you say 'half as somplex', do you mean it only has one main chopper circuit, not the 2 that are used in the 9845B Opt 200? I have never seen a 9845A, but from what I've heard it's very different to the B or C. To the extent that both processor modules are on one PCB, and there's a bus switching board alongside it. > > The mono monitor doesn't have its own mains supply, it runs off assorted > > voltages from the CPU box supply. Of coruse it does generate the HV for > > the CRT from the flyback transformer as usual. > > > > > > > That's interesting, so even the fast mono graphics monitor is powered by > the mainframe PSU. By the way, do you have an idea how to build a Yes. And it's not just one supply line either. There's certainly +5V, +12V and -12V for the logic, and I think +18V and -18V (Vm on my diagrams) for the analogue side. The mono monitor is also quite complex inside. There are 6 plug-in PCBs + a backplane and a little function keystrip under the screen. The flyback transformer, which supplies the high voltages for the CRT, is seperately mounted on the chasis metalwork. The 6 PCBs split into 2 sets of 3. The first is the digital stuff and consists of : Text PCB : ---------- Takes in characters from the 80 cahracter buffers on the mainframe video interface PCB. Contains character generators, video shift register, attribute logic, video timing/sync chain, etc. Interface PCB : ---------------- Linkls to the PPU I/O bus. I/O address decoder, control/status register, keypad encoder, etc. Processor PCB : --------------- Graphics memory, HP ASIC as an address generator (both for read/display and things like line drawing), graphics shift registers, rubberband memory, etc. There must be around 200 ICs on those 3 boards in total The other 3 boards are the analogue stuff you'd expect (!) to find in a monitor. Deflection PCB : ---------------- Scan oscillators, vertical output stage, SMPSU for the flyback transformer (!), raster correction circuit Video PCB : ----------- Video DAC (resistor ladder, actually), video amplifier, CRT driver circuitry Heatsink PCB : -------------- 6 power transistors. Raster correction output, horizontal supply regulator pass transistors, horixzontal output transistor, flyback driver transistor. Note that the yoke has 3 windings. As well as the conventional deflection windings, there's a feedback sense winding that measures the actually horizontal deflection field. There are 2 expansion slots in the monitor. One is for the lightpen controller. THe other is for an arbitrary video expansion board. I have neither option, so there are no schematics. > home-brew startup fixure? I guess the only signals which are really > important are the NP and the NL signals. The first resets the address > registers of the alpha circuit and grabs the fist word from the crt > buffer in block 1, the other probably initiates another PPU bus > arbitration for grabbing one complete line of text from the crt buffer > in block 1. Maybe in absence of a crt the alpha circuit makes some kind > of continuous bus capture and the whole system hangs. And maybe the > mainframe can run even without crt when NP and NL are both pulled up to > logical 1. Two resistors would then be enough. > > Another probably important signal is the HALT-signal, from which the PPU > knows it's the PPU and not the LPU, and which is generated by the alpha > circuit but probably triggered by the NP signal. > First problem (for you, at least). I drew all this out long before seeing an HP manual, so I didn't use the HP names. And several of the signals disappear into the PPU hybrid so it's almost impossible to work out what they actually do there. I have now seen the HP boardwapper guide for the monitor, but I couldn't easily work out the translation between my names and HP's. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 31 17:59:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:59:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PC Ephemera In-Reply-To: <43658E18.2090404@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Oct 30, 5 09:23:04 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > They sure are hard to find elsewhere, though. > > Which is why I'm grateful you're on this list :-) The PC TechRefs are nowhere near the most obscure or rare manuals I have. I mean, does anyone else have the techncial manuals for the P851 and P854 by their bed :-) On the other hand, few people need the P851 microcode sources. Rather more seem to be interested in the IBM PC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 31 18:41:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 00:41:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: <43669587.8080507@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Oct 31, 5 10:07:03 pm Message-ID: > > Yes, there is always that :-). I am having peoblems finding space for the > > PX8 I bought the other week... > > Epson PX-8? (clears a roughly PX-8-size space) I can think of somewhere... Yes, exactly that. I got one with what seems to be a PSU problem -- it powers up OK from a bench supply, but if you turn it off it won't turn on again without a hard reset. The always-on backup power line is not behaving correctly. One SMD sener has been blasted off the board, so %deity knows what other damage has been done. But the rest of the machine, in particular the custom gate arrays, all seem to work, so I think I can repair it. If you are seriously looking for one, they are not that uncommon on E-bay. I got this one there fairly cheaply because it was non-working, even though the PF-10 3.5" floppy drive was included (this, BTW, is an interesting device inside, it's one of the few 40 cylinder 67.5 tpi 3.5" units, and the drive elecrtronics (read/write chain, etc) and controller (765 + 63A03 microntroller + etc) are all on one PCB). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 31 18:52:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 00:52:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Comment on 'boardswapping' as part of the computer culture. In-Reply-To: <43669B5D.7010909@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 31, 5 10:31:57 pm Message-ID: > Yes, but I suppose in the field a company's not aiming for 100% > reliability. If the amount of customers annoyed/inconvenienced by > incorrect boardswaps is less than those annoyed by the time it takes for That's what makes me different from 99% of other users. I don't care too much about downtime (although obviously I do want to be up and running again in a reasonable time), what I do care about (and not just with computers) is that when the device claims to be operational, it's working correctly. No odd glitches, etc. A device you can't trust to give the right results is, to me, worse than useless. But alas few people seem to care about getting the right result any more. > > Well, actually, I do refuse to use anything I don't properly understand, > > but that is another issue. > > apart from your brain ;-) You think I have (or use) a brain? News to me ;-) -tony From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Oct 31 19:09:12 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:09:12 -0500 Subject: whatsit?? Old stuff, bench electronics? Radio? I dunno. In-Reply-To: <007101c5de7c$4f9e1bc0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <009601c5de68$e9891f50$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <007101c5de7c$4f9e1bc0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20051031200912.433b49cc.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:36:33 -0500 "John Allain" wrote: > Something to not pitch in ths era is any cloth insulated wiring. > Not always easy to find. > > John A. > I have a full spool of silk-wound coil wire. On a wooden spool. -- http://sasteven.multics.org/MacSE30/MacSE30.html From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Oct 31 19:16:03 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:16:03 -0500 Subject: Need help configuring DZQ11s on 2.11BSD for VCF! References: <006501c5de68$cbdf47e0$0401a8c0@jfcl.com> <200510311638.03791.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <17254.49619.515000.285438@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Lyle" == Lyle Bickley writes: >> From RT you can do a "show device" >> From RSX MCR "DEV" or DCL "SHOW DEVICES" In RSTS, boot to the "start timesharing" prompt, and say "hardware list". RSTS uses floating CSR rules but doesn't care about floating vectors, so if you have a vector wrong it still works, which may not help you if another OS is pickier. paul From hachti at hachti.de Mon Oct 31 19:17:47 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 02:17:47 +0100 Subject: HP 7978 9-track tape drive - docs? Message-ID: <4366C23B.9020305@hachti.de> Hi folks, I have recently got a HP 7978 9-track tape drive with HPIB (IEEE 488, GPIB) interface. Now I'm looking for documentation. Does anybody have documentation for that drive? Would be glad to hear from your....Thanks. Any experience with interfacing these monsters to modern PCs?? I think of writing a linux driver for it...... Best regards, Philipp :-) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 31 19:21:13 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:21:13 -0800 Subject: Big dollars paid for Altair 8800 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <0IP900A6X18MC081@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IP900A6X18MC081@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200510311721130225.0C6FA573@10.0.0.252> On 10/31/2005 at 6:59 PM Allison wrote: >Works ok with a modern LCD TV! I remember that I interfaced mine to a 12" portable Zenith hot-chassis tube-transistor hybrid portable--went directly to the video detector, no RF modulator used. Until I got an isolation transformer, I had to be very careful about plugging the thing in... Cheers, Chuck From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 31 19:47:19 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:47:19 -0800 Subject: whatsit?? Old stuff, bench electronics? Radio? I dunno. References: <200511010121.jA11LGHG056582@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4366C927.6D92DB92@rain.org> I don't recognize the equipment, but it looks like a variac in the last piece of equipment that is probably worth saving if you plan on pitching the equipment. > See http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/whatsit > > Should I pitch this stuff? Anyone know what it is? > > Jay From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Oct 31 20:04:10 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:04:10 -0600 Subject: Ergo Brick needed by law firm Message-ID: <013801c5de88$8e13fbc0$64406b43@66067007> Anyone have ergo brick computer they would like to sell or swap to help in a legal battle? Contact me off list please. Thanks John From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 31 22:58:56 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:58:56 -0600 Subject: mitch miller contact info? Message-ID: <00d101c5dea0$f9128000$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Anyone know if Mitch Miller from Keyways is still around and how to contact him? I can't seem to get through :\ I'm trying to beg him to sell me some rails for a BA11. Jay West From technobug at comcast.net Mon Oct 31 01:10:14 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:10:14 -0700 Subject: Waht is an MC1806 ? In-Reply-To: <200510310010.j9V0Ag2B039291@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200510310010.j9V0Ag2B039291@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:41:27 +0000 (GMT), rd at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I am working on an HP59405, which is the HPIB interface for the HP9830 > 'calculator'. On the PCB are 2 chips which cross to something > called an > MC1806. This is not in any of my Motorola databooks. > > > Does anyone have a databook that lists it? > > -tony > > > This is the short description: Part Number = MC1806P Description = 2-Input AND-Function Logic Gate Manufacturer = Motorola Circuits Per Package = 4 t(PLH) Maximum (S) = 35n P(D) Max.(W) Power Dissipation = 75m Vsup Nom.(V) Supply Voltage = 5.0 Status = Discontinued Package = TO-116 Pins = 14 Military = N Technology = DTL The attached PDF is a overall listing of the Motorola DTL. Hope this helps. CRC? From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Oct 31 03:11:35 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:11:35 +0100 Subject: help - 11/34 console problem Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF24D6@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi all, I finally got juice on the main power line connection in my museum. I am connecting my machines bit by bit, after 2 years of inactivity. I have found the following problem with my 11/34C. (I will keep the description short, and tell only the end result) The console of the 11/34C (11/34A plus cache option) shows weird (=wrong) behaviour. It was working fine! The display shows "000000", and the RUN LED is off. If I press the 'LSR' button, the 'SR DISP' LED goes on. However, if I press any of the numerical buttons, '1-6', a digit in the display only flashes very brief. I cannot say what the digit was. It looks like the M7859 has developed a problem. To make things more weird the following happens if I start with pressing the 'CLR' button and then the numerical buttons. 1) press CLR (display stays at "000000") 2) press e.g. 6 (some of the rightmost digit segments briefly flash) 3) press 6 again (1st and 2nd of the right display flashes) 4) press 6 again (1st, 2nd and 3rd of the right display flashes) The first leftmost three displays remain "000" and do not show any sign of changes. Pressing 6 after the first 3 times, repeats the flashing of some segments in the three rightmost displays. So, I have the impression it has the problem to do with the M7958. AFAIK, the entry of the digits, for example the numeric entry '165020' does *not* need the UNIBUS, but only sets up an internal register. The 'LAD' button, and 'DIS AD' will start a UNIBUS cycle (to access a memory location). Correct? BTW, the voltage on the CPU backplane (DD11-PK) is 5.08 V. and the +15 and -15 read +/-15.x V. (Can't remember the exact value). I have an other 11/34 with an M7958, but never powered up that box. I took that M7859 and installed it in the 11/34C. The display stays dark. According to the M7859 doc, that basically means that the board is dead. So much for board swapping. Sorry, could not resist to try an easy success. I don't have other spare M7859 ... If you are interested, I can tell the steps I did before I stumbled on this M7859 (?) problem ... Anybody seen this display / console panel behaviour on the 11/34 ? Any clues ? All input is appreciated ! thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From dwight at ca2h0430.amd.com Mon Oct 31 10:50:06 2005 From: dwight at ca2h0430.amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:50:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yet another idea for recovering the data from Series80 tapes Message-ID: <200510311650.IAA04137@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Vassilis Prevelakis" > >ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:... >> Hmmm. I thought it was where the taps stuch to itself, or to the drive >> belt, when the catridge was stored. In which case your idea might not >> help much. > >Aha! There goes my original hypothesis. Well, that is relatively easy to >check. I took apart two old tapes and found the following: > >Assuming that the tapes were rewound before storage, there are two >stretches of weakened magnetic coating on both tapes I looked at; the first >was short while the second longer. These correspond to the length of tape >in contact with the drive belt > Hi It sounds like the belts should still have any data that was on the tape for those stretches. Reading may be a little difficult but the information is still in the magnetic media. Dwight From dwight at ca2h0430.amd.com Mon Oct 31 11:03:49 2005 From: dwight at ca2h0430.amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:03:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Waht is an MC1806 ? Message-ID: <200510311703.JAA04437@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi Tony I would guess that it is the same as a TI 806 DTL. I don't have a data book for that but it seems like I found one on the web someplace when I was looking at some of the DTL's in my Nicolet computer. Dwight >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >The Subject: line says it all really, but perhaps I should give a little >more explanation. > >I am working on an HP59405, which is the HPIB interface for the HP9830 >'calculator'. On the PCB are 2 chips which cross to something called an >MC1806. This is not in any of my Motorola databooks. > >What I have determined (I think) so far : > >1) 14 pin DIL package, power on 14, ground on 7 as usual. > >2) Seems to be a quad 2-input device, pinout as the 7400 -- that is, >inputs on 1 and 2, output on 3, etc. > >3) Seems to be DTL in that the output directly drives the base of an NPN >transsistor, the emitter of which is grounded. > >4) The most logical (!) function would be a quad 2 input NOR gate. Maybe >an AND gate? > >Does anyone have a databook that lists it? > >-tony > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 31 14:07:23 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 12:07:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Another P/S question In-Reply-To: <6346c9be645842b6bcf97037352bf0f8@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <20051031200723.72026.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> dude, I'm no electronics expert, but you should get a replacement cap and solder it in (after desoldering the old one). I'm surprised it works at all, but depending on it's part in the scheme of things, anything is possible I guess. If you don't have a schematic, I don't know, possible look around inside and see if there are common values. Post around, if you let it go, who knows... If you're familiar with the voltages that particular p/s supplies, maybe in the interim replace it with a common pc style supply, if that'll do the job. You can always leave the old one intact, run the wires from the replacement in somehow. You can even unplug the fan (on the old supply) and provide power to it from the new *external* supply. It might work ;) --- compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > Whilst waiding through the IRISes power supply, I > found another exploded paper cap. (PS date 1985). > Is this likely normal, or should I look somewhere > else (don't have a working scope). Would the failure > of one cap put more stress on the remaining ones? > When I get the machine working, I hope to have > something interesting to report, but I have no > confirmation yet. > > ScottQ > > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com