From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 1 18:38:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 00:38:00 -2300 (BST) Subject: Tools In-Reply-To: <001601c56636$064aa6f0$aa3cd7d1@randy> from "Randy McLaughlin" at May 31, 5 06:11:00 pm Message-ID: > > That's how you do the timing belts in most transverse-engined cars. You > > won't get at the bottom pulley otherwise, and you need to make sure the > > timing marks are correctly aligned. > All you have to do is remove the number one spark-plug and insert a plastic > straw, when you turn the crank-shaft you can easily tell when you are at > TDC. The Citroen BX Diesel (XUD engine) is even easier. Turn the engine to the timing position and put 1 M8 bolt through a hole in the camshaft sprocket (it screws into the cylinder head) and 2 through holes in the injection pump sprocket (they screw into the block IIRC). Put a timing pin (an Allen key will do) into the hole behind the starter motor so that it slips into the hole in the flywheel. Remove the belt, fit a new one, remove the pin and bolts, turn the engine 2 full turns by hand, then check you can fit the bolts and pin back again. If so, it's correctly timed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 1 18:44:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 00:44:37 -2300 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 31, 5 04:36:42 pm Message-ID: > You previously suggested putting the correct size tool inside the box. > Wouldn't this also alter the historical fabric of the machine? After all, Yes, I suppose it would. OK, if you've going to stick a tool inside the machine, put a label on it saying this is not an original IBM part, it's provided for the benefit of future repaires who are too brain-dead to buy Bristol Spline keys :-) For the record, my 5155 has the original Bristol spline screws in the monitor section, and there are no tools fixed inside it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 1 18:50:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 00:50:51 -2300 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 31, 5 04:39:08 pm Message-ID: > You would advocate physically marring a board as "reversible" since you > could "solder a piece of wire over the break", but someone swapping screws > is permanently altering a machine's make-up? > > Please tell me you're joking. No I am not joking... A PCB cut and repair is (a) generally a useful modification (either to trace a fault, or to improve the machine in some way, and then to go back to the original configuration). And (b) it's bleeding obvious what's been done. It is _not_ obvious that the original screws were, say, Bristol Spline head if they've been replaced with Pozidriv or whatever. Now, if the machine was assembled with fasteners that were genuinely impossible to get the right tool to remove, or if it was pop-riveted together, or something, then I would agree it would be sensible to replace said fasteners with something more conventional and make a note to that effect if the machine was rare/significant. That's what I would claim to be a useful modification. My moan from the start is that there is no good reason to replace the original Bristol Spline screws with anything else. Period. And if there's no good reason to change something, you don't change it. When there is a good reason to change something, then I see no problem with changing it, provided you document the changes and attempt to make sure said documentation is preserved. -tony From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 1 02:13:59 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:13:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: der Mouse ""Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault]" (May 31, 21:15) References: <200506010118.VAA17247@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <10506010813.ZM10661@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 31 2005, 21:15, der Mouse wrote: > > I have a minimal tookit (flat blade, Phillips, Pozidriv, Torx, Allen > > keys) upstairs, [...] > > Which reminds me - I've seen this "Pozidriv" screw drive mentioned > elsewhere in this thread, as if it were a common type. Since there is > no screw drive type I know by that name, this leads me to wonder, what > is it? (It may be another name for one I know, or it may be one I > don't know but which is common in circles I've never moved in, or > perhaps I misread the references and it's not actually that common.) The URL Randy posted has a good picture. Pozidriv/Supadriv are similar to Philips, but the angles on the point of the driver are slightly different and the facets are ground flat in both directions, unlike Philips which are conical, which means that the driver grips the screw slightly better and both are less prone to wear. The intent is that when high turning force is applied, the driver won't ride out of the screw head, which happens with Philips screws. Another design feature is that the driver, if it's the correct size, is guaranteed to grip the screw, so you can pick up a screw with the driver and know it won't fall off while you're trying to insert it into a hole in an awkward place. Assuming the driver isn't excessively worn from being misused on Philips screws, of course :-) In practice, Pozidriv sizes are also slightly different from Philips so the screwdrivers are not interchangeable. They are widely used in Europe, almost to the exclusion of Philips screw heads. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 1 02:55:01 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:55:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: VR201s free-ish, and more. Message-ID: <20050601075501.38646.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Uncovered a couiple of these and no longer need them. As they were stored I guess they work but don't have cables to test them. Ed, they may work with the HP-86s. 8^)= Located in the UK, pickup or delivery costs. Mac powerbook 145. This genuinely fell off the back of a lorry hence the condition, which can only be described as "jigsaw". Good for parts, including the screen which is intact. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 1 05:02:39 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:02:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Two tubes Message-ID: <20050601100239.66409.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> A pair of QQV02/20A dual anode beam tetrode valves. Suitable for VHF PA stage. Unused. Collect or postage from UK. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 1 05:03:55 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:03:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Two tubes Message-ID: <20050601100355.66587.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> That should have read QQV03/20A. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From martinm at allwest.net Wed Jun 1 07:23:56 2005 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 06:23:56 -0600 Subject: Update on HHC Basics References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050407103538.04e5a698@mail.30below.com> <2888a64a52600d6cfc476460383256bd@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <429DA8DC.5010202@allwest.net> David Betz wrote: > Has anyone who ordered one of these ROMs received it yet? I haven't > received mine and I've tried to send Roger email on a number of > occasions and have gotten no reply. Has anyone else heard from him? > > Thanks, > David Yep, received mine about 2 - 3 weeks ago. Martin From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 1 07:55:29 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 05:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Update on HHC Basics In-Reply-To: <429DA8DC.5010202@allwest.net> from Martin Marshall at "Jun 1, 5 06:23:56 am" Message-ID: <200506011255.FAA20886@floodgap.com> > > Has anyone who ordered one of these ROMs received it yet? I haven't > > received mine and I've tried to send Roger email on a number of > > occasions and have gotten no reply. Has anyone else heard from him? > Yep, received mine about 2 - 3 weeks ago. Mine too. Works well. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There is always one more imbecile than you counted on. --------------------- From richlist at sias.us Wed Jun 1 07:56:30 2005 From: richlist at sias.us (Rich Sias) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:56:30 -0400 Subject: OFFER: Industrial monitors Message-ID: <200506011257.j51Cv4uq033855@dewey.classiccmp.org> I have two FIXED frequency monitors that I have been unable to service. Mostly due to lack of schematics. 1. 1989 version "MaxPC" brand built by Toshiba 21". Remove the plastic cover and it is encased in metal all around. EMI protection? Weighs a ton. One day many years ago I backed up monitor stand until the vert adjust screwdrive left in back crushed the vert adj pot to smithereens. I got a horz bright white line. I took the pieces and took a guess at value and discovered somthing else died also. Freq is about 48KHz. 2. SUN 20D10 monitor. has a daughter card with a bunch of ittty bitty caps on it that are reputed to have bad ESR that is causing the bad UNadjustable pincoushion. Daughtercard seems to be one of those parts hung in midair and the mother board assembled around it, THEN the montor assembled around THAT! Freq is about 70-110 Khz I have boxes still if you want them shipped. Location is Warminster PA (near Philly) Assume 80lbs and they might be less at weigh in. Rich From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Jun 1 08:21:54 2005 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:21:54 +0200 (MEST) Subject: Stuff I grabbed, stuff I missed... Message-ID: <12811.1117632114@www36.gmx.net> I think I have to pay a lot more attention to what I dig up... University cleaned out a lot of computer stuff, mainly Sun, some HP 9000. I was allowed to raid the junk box yesterday and got a good drive tray for my HP9000 (the SCSI cable was missing from the installed one). Also got quite a lot of sBus boards (FDDI, CDDI, Ethernet, ATM, framegrabbers, framebuffers), even some Creator UPA FBs, drive mounting brackets and cable kits for SS1/1+/2 enclosures. AUI adaptor cables for SS20 and Classic, AUI/Audio Splitters for SS10 / LX, TTY adaptor cables for IPC/IPX. Please enquire if you're interested in something (for pickup or S&H), I likely won't be needing the whole lot! There are also two SPARCclassics, about seven Ultra1-140 and one each SPARCstation 1, 1+ and 2 available; the SS1 comes with mg1 framebuffer and matching ECL monitor (which is a bit dim after all, sadly). I'll keep them locally (Erlangen/Nuremberg, Germany) so they are not threatened by trashing. Then again, I grabbed a MAGMA Serial 16 Breakout unit (connection box for a sBus card providing 16 serial ports), but couldn't find the actual card for it, even when I went through the box for the second time this morning. If anybody needs this unit or wants to get rid of the corresponding card, please let's get in touch! Max. idiocy factor was obviously reached when I bagged the two HP9000 EISA PSI cards (Dual-port Programmable Serial Interface J2815A, can do RS-232C/V24 or X.21/V11) but left all the proprietary cables in their sealed poly bags lying right next to them behind! Of course the whole pile was already gone when I realized what they were for. *repeatedly slaps forehead* If something can be done about this (by someone either having too much cables or too few cards) then I'm all ears as well. So long, yours sincerely -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Geschenkt: 3 Monate GMX ProMail gratis + 3 Ausgaben stern gratis ++ Jetzt anmelden & testen ++ http://www.gmx.net/de/go/promail ++ From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed Jun 1 08:27:05 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:27:05 -0400 Subject: Update on HHC Basics In-Reply-To: <200506011255.FAA20886@floodgap.com> References: <200506011255.FAA20886@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <39f78a6e8894da8a778bd9ada494a4cc@xlisper.mv.com> Hmmm... I guess it must be just me. Maybe mine got lost in the mail. I'll try contacting Roger again. Thanks, David On Jun 1, 2005, at 8:55 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Has anyone who ordered one of these ROMs received it yet? I haven't >>> received mine and I've tried to send Roger email on a number of >>> occasions and have gotten no reply. Has anyone else heard from him? > >> Yep, received mine about 2 - 3 weeks ago. > > Mine too. Works well. > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- There is always one more imbecile than you counted on. > --------------------- > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 1 08:52:53 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:52:53 -0400 Subject: HP 9133/9134/9135 service manual Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050601095253.00948d50@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> David Bryan just scanned and sent me a copy of "HP's 5 1/4-Inch Winchester Disc Drive Service Documentation" (HP 09134-90032, August 1983) for the old style HP 9133/9134 and 9135 disk drives. Besides the always useful service information, it includes explainations of which drives can be made to look like 4 1.15Mb floppy drives for use on the HP-85 and other small systems that don't normally use the HP hard drives. I've posted it at "http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/HP%20Docs/". Thanks David! Joe From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 1 09:43:15 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:43:15 -0400 Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] References: <200506010118.VAA17247@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <17053.51587.945732.871625@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> I have a minimal tookit (flat blade, Phillips, Pozidriv, Torx, >> Allen keys) upstairs, [...] der> Which reminds me - I've seen this "Pozidriv" screw drive der> mentioned elsewhere in this thread, as if it were a common type. der> Since there is no screw drive type I know by that name, this der> leads me to wonder, what is it? I believe it is common in Europe, not common in North America. (I have seen it in my Chevy Blazer, though.) You might find it in screws that come with the fancy hinges you'll find in some nice furniture. Look for a screw that looks like a Phillips screw with additional narrow grooves at 45 degree angles to the main slots. A Phillips bit will work moderately well on a Pozidriv screw, but the proper bit will hold a great deal better and is well worth having. They shouldn't be hard to find; all the tech tool catalogs I've seen (like Jensen and Contact East) have them; so does SnapOn. paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 1 11:48:46 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault Message-ID: <200506011648.JAA02338@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > ---snip--- >However, I make those modifications as reversable as possible (I would >rather not cut a PCB track, but sometimes there is no other way, for >example). And I don't make them if I don't have to (which is what this >darn thread started off about). > >-tony > > Hi I guess I'm like you. I have a Olivetti M20 and wanted to get the CPM-8000 running on it. The original memory cards had 16K DRAMs that gave the system 224K. To run CPM-8000 I needed to have 64K DRAMs. It required that I unsolder the DRAMs, some capacitors and cut a power line to configure for the larger DRAMs. While I would have prefered to get the larger memory boards from the manufacture, this was not all that practical. I felt that getting working images of the CPM-8000 was more important. A computer that doesn't work is an interesting pile of hazardous waste. One that works is a window into what was. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 1 12:00:45 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intel UPP103 Cable Message-ID: <200506011700.KAA02362@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "xyz" > >I have a Intel MDS-800 and a UPP-103. I don't have the cable that connects the two units. Both units have DB-25 D-type connectors. Does anyone have a wiring diagram of this cable. > Hi I think I have it someplace. There are about 3 or 4 lines that need to be twisted pairs with a ground lead. The original used a bundle of twisted pairs that had black leads for the one twisted lead. I many cases, the black leads carried data signals and not ground. The cable manufacture only checked that the cable had continuity and not that the right pairs were twisted. When I worked at Intel, I made a checker that would display the number of incorrect twisted pairs by doing a transformer coupling of the wires. It may take me a while to look for the programmer cable drawings. Hopefully, Joe or Dave can find one quicker. Dwight From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Jun 1 13:28:40 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:28:40 -0400 Subject: AN1127 application note In-Reply-To: <20050529014534.39292.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200506011828.j51ISfs9023723@mail.bcpl.net> On 29 May 2005 at 2:45, lee davison wrote: > Anyone have a copy of this Motorola app note? It's available in the "Archive" section of the Freescale Web site. Go to: http://www2.hibbertgroup.com/freescale/main ...click on "Search," specify "AN1127" as the item number, and select "Archive Only" or "Active and Archive" for the item status. -- Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 1 15:14:15 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: <17053.51587.945732.871625@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200506010118.VAA17247@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17053.51587.945732.871625@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050601131332.Q46266@shell.lmi.net> > A Phillips bit will work moderately well on a Pozidriv screw, but the about as well as a butter knife works on slotted screws From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Jun 1 15:29:25 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:29:25 +0100 Subject: Paging Jules Richardson Message-ID: <00c301c566e8$9ab62000$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Jules, I've tried to send you a couple of messages off list re ASR33, but I'm not sure if you are receiving them. Jim Beacon Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 1 15:48:31 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] Message-ID: <200506012048.NAA02451@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >> A Phillips bit will work moderately well on a Pozidriv screw, but the > >about as well as a butter knife works on slotted screws > Hi My first repair job was when I used a butter knife on the toaster to fix the timer. It actually worked when I was done. I was about 6 years old at the time. Dwight From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Jun 1 16:06:28 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:06:28 -0500 Subject: Intel application notes archive was Re: AN1127 application note References: <200506011828.j51ISfs9023723@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <001601c566ed$cb3779e0$f53cd7d1@randy> From: "J. David Bryan" Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 1:28 PM > On 29 May 2005 at 2:45, lee davison wrote: > >> Anyone have a copy of this Motorola app note? > > It's available in the "Archive" section of the Freescale Web site. Go to: > > http://www2.hibbertgroup.com/freescale/main > > ...click on "Search," specify "AN1127" as the item number, and select > "Archive Only" or "Active and Archive" for the item status. > > -- Dave Does anyone know of an archive for Intel Application notes? I'd like to find the application notes on building a CRT using the 8275 (one was for the 8080 the other for the 8085). The closest I could find was one using 8276 & 8051. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 1 15:57:38 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:57:38 +0000 Subject: Paging Jules Richardson In-Reply-To: <00c301c566e8$9ab62000$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <00c301c566e8$9ab62000$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1117659458.16812.40.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 21:29 +0100, Jim Beacon wrote: > Jules, > > I've tried to send you a couple of messages off list re ASR33, but I'm not > sure if you are receiving them. *waves* You have mail :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 1 16:23:47 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: <200506012048.NAA02451@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200506012048.NAA02451@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050601142300.L46266@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > My first repair job was when I used a butter knife > on the toaster to fix the timer. It actually worked > when I was done. I was about 6 years old at the time. a good start, and hopefully you have better tools now :-) From cctech at randy482.com Wed Jun 1 16:28:55 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:28:55 -0500 Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] References: <200506012048.NAA02451@clulw009.amd.com> <20050601142300.L46266@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <002901c566f0$f1009aa0$f53cd7d1@randy> From: "Fred Cisin" Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 4:23 PM > On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> My first repair job was when I used a butter knife >> on the toaster to fix the timer. It actually worked >> when I was done. I was about 6 years old at the time. > > a good start, and hopefully you have better tools now :-) Personally I still find myself places I have to check the cutlery to repair something (when I'm at someone elses house). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 1 17:07:35 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:07:35 -0400 Subject: Intel application notes archive was Re: AN1127 application note Message-ID: <20050601220735.PPGQ5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Does anyone know of an archive for Intel Application notes? > >I'd like to find the application notes on building a CRT using the 8275 (one >was for the 8080 the other for the 8085). The closest I could find was one >using 8276 & 8051. Randy, On semi-random picking of my library, I hit one on the first try, this is in Intel 1986 "Microsystem Components Handbook - Peripherals Volume II", there is an application note entitled AP-62 "A Low Cost CRT Terminal using the 8275". It describes the contruction of a small terminal using the 8275 and an 8085. It is about 40 pages long ... if you "really really" need me to, I can scan it for you. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 1 17:14:53 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:14:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: <002901c566f0$f1009aa0$f53cd7d1@randy> References: <200506012048.NAA02451@clulw009.amd.com> <20050601142300.L46266@shell.lmi.net> <002901c566f0$f1009aa0$f53cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <200506012216.SAA03395@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> My first repair job was when I used a butter knife on the toaster >> a good start, and hopefully you have better tools now :-) > Personally I still find myself places I have to check the cutlery to > repair something (when I'm at someone elses house). There's a reason I always carry my Swiss Army knife. :-) (It's not a very elaborate one, and not nearly up to comparison with, say, a Leatherman, but it's pretty versatile given a little imagination.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 1 17:36:15 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:36:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: der Mouse "Re: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault]" (Jun 1, 18:14) References: <200506012048.NAA02451@clulw009.amd.com> <20050601142300.L46266@shell.lmi.net> <002901c566f0$f1009aa0$f53cd7d1@randy> <200506012216.SAA03395@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <10506012336.ZM12055@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 1 2005, 18:14, der Mouse wrote: > >>> My first repair job was when I used a butter knife on the toaster > >> a good start, and hopefully you have better tools now :-) > > Personally I still find myself places I have to check the cutlery to > > repair something (when I'm at someone elses house). > > There's a reason I always carry my Swiss Army knife. :-) (It's not a > very elaborate one, and not nearly up to comparison with, say, a > Leatherman, but it's pretty versatile given a little imagination.) I always carry one, too. I do actually own a fairly elaborate one, but the one I carry is quite simple. I carefully ground the end of one blade so it fits (approximately, but "well enough") many Philips/Pozidriv screws, and is useful if they're not too tight. The real challenge wa geting it to also fit the rather odd slotted Torx screws used on HP equipment :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 1 17:31:42 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:31:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: Fred Cisin "Re: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault]" (Jun 1, 13:14) References: <200506010118.VAA17247@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17053.51587.945732.871625@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050601131332.Q46266@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <10506012331.ZM12052@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 1 2005, 13:14, Fred Cisin wrote: > > A Phillips bit will work moderately well on a Pozidriv screw, but the > > about as well as a butter knife works on slotted screws My mother keeps a particular potato peeler because it fits Philips screws. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 1 18:03:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 23:03:18 +0000 Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: <10506012336.ZM12055@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200506012048.NAA02451@clulw009.amd.com> <20050601142300.L46266@shell.lmi.net> <002901c566f0$f1009aa0$f53cd7d1@randy> <200506012216.SAA03395@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <10506012336.ZM12055@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1117666998.16812.51.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 23:36 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jun 1 2005, 18:14, der Mouse wrote: > > >>> My first repair job was when I used a butter knife on the toaster > > >> a good start, and hopefully you have better tools now :-) > > > Personally I still find myself places I have to check the cutlery > to > > > repair something (when I'm at someone elses house). > > > > There's a reason I always carry my Swiss Army knife. :-) (It's not a > > very elaborate one, and not nearly up to comparison with, say, a > > Leatherman, but it's pretty versatile given a little imagination.) > > I always carry one, too. I do actually own a fairly elaborate one, but > the one I carry is quite simple. I carefully ground the end of one > blade so it fits (approximately, but "well enough") many > Philips/Pozidriv screws, and is useful if they're not too tight. The > real challenge wa geting it to also fit the rather odd slotted Torx > screws used on HP equipment :-) Heh :) I lost mine which was particularly annoying as it got me out of a lot of scrapes over the years. (*and* the little pair of tweezers hadn't yet vanished :) Still need to get a decent replacement... Regarding the Leatherman tools, all the ones I've seen have been way bigger than a swiss army knife and so a lot less practical for carrying about in a pocket. I'd quite like to have a swiss army knife that could be dismantled and the tools swapped around depending on the likely use to be honest. Of course then you need a second knife to reassemble the first :-) cheers Jules From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Jun 1 18:30:43 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:30:43 -0400 Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: <1117666998.16812.51.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <10506012336.ZM12055@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200506012048.NAA02451@clulw009.amd.com> <20050601142300.L46266@shell.lmi.net> <002901c566f0$f1009aa0$f53cd7d1@randy> <200506012216.SAA03395@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <10506012336.ZM12055@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601192447.0494fc00@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: >Heh :) I lost mine which was particularly annoying as it got me out of a >lot of scrapes over the years. (*and* the little pair of tweezers hadn't >yet vanished :) Still need to get a decent replacement... I carry the smallest Swiss Army knife in my pocket, for the tweezers, small scissors & whatnot... but I also have a Leatherman Wave for the bigger jobs. >Regarding the Leatherman tools, all the ones I've seen have been way >bigger than a swiss army knife and so a lot less practical for carrying >about in a pocket. That's why %deity invented beltloops & belts. ;-) Altho, I suppose you're SOL if you're a suspenders kinda guy... Honestly tho: Any Swiss Army knife that can handle the same tasks as my Leatherman, is _just as big_ as my Leatherman, and just as uncomfortable when carried in a pocket, IMHO. I'm not saying they're bad tools, I'm saying they should come with a belt-pouch. ;-) Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 1 18:31:17 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:31:17 -0400 Subject: HP 9133/9134/9135 service manual Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050601193117.00a42dd0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> This afternoon David send me a PDF copy of the HP 64000 Logic Developement System Configuration manual. I've posted it in the same directory with the HP disk drive manual. Joe David Bryan just scanned and sent me a copy of "HP's 5 1/4-Inch Winchester Disc Drive Service Documentation" (HP 09134-90032, August 1983) for the old style HP 9133/9134 and 9135 disk drives. Besides the always useful service information, it includes explainations of which drives can be made to look like 4 1.15Mb floppy drives for use on the HP-85 and other small systems that don't normally use the HP hard drives. I've posted it at "http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/HP%20Docs/". Thanks David! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 1 18:40:23 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:40:23 -0400 Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: <1117666998.16812.51.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <10506012336.ZM12055@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200506012048.NAA02451@clulw009.amd.com> <20050601142300.L46266@shell.lmi.net> <002901c566f0$f1009aa0$f53cd7d1@randy> <200506012216.SAA03395@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <10506012336.ZM12055@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050601194023.00a49100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:03 PM 6/1/05 +0000, Jules wrote: >On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 23:36 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On Jun 1 2005, 18:14, der Mouse wrote: >> > >>> My first repair job was when I used a butter knife on the toaster >> > >> a good start, and hopefully you have better tools now :-) >> > > Personally I still find myself places I have to check the cutlery >> to >> > > repair something (when I'm at someone elses house). >> > >> > There's a reason I always carry my Swiss Army knife. :-) (It's not a >> > very elaborate one, and not nearly up to comparison with, say, a >> > Leatherman, but it's pretty versatile given a little imagination.) >> >> I always carry one, too. I do actually own a fairly elaborate one, but >> the one I carry is quite simple. I carefully ground the end of one >> blade so it fits (approximately, but "well enough") many >> Philips/Pozidriv screws, and is useful if they're not too tight. The >> real challenge wa geting it to also fit the rather odd slotted Torx >> screws used on HP equipment :-) > >Heh :) I lost mine which was particularly annoying as it got me out of a >lot of scrapes over the years. (*and* the little pair of tweezers hadn't >yet vanished :) Still need to get a decent replacement... > >Regarding the Leatherman tools, all the ones I've seen have been way >bigger than a swiss army knife and so a lot less practical for carrying >about in a pocket. You should go check them out again. They make all kinds of sizes. I have a BIG one in the tool set in my car. A medium one to carry in my pocket most of the time and at second one of them at home. Plus a couple of little ones that I carry when I don't want the bulk or weight of a medium one. > >I'd quite like to have a swiss army knife that could be dismantled and >the tools swapped around depending on the likely use to be honest. Of >course then you need a second knife to reassemble the first :-) Checkout some of the Leatherman "clones", at least one of them has a 1/4" hex socket with interchangeable bits. There are enough clones with slight variations that you should find one that will do exactly what you want. Joe > >cheers > >Jules > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 1 18:44:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:44:04 -0400 Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: <17053.51587.945732.871625@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200506010118.VAA17247@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050601194404.00a4b730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:43 AM 6/1/05 -0400, you wrote: >>>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: > > >> I have a minimal tookit (flat blade, Phillips, Pozidriv, Torx, > >> Allen keys) upstairs, [...] > > der> Which reminds me - I've seen this "Pozidriv" screw drive > der> mentioned elsewhere in this thread, as if it were a common type. > der> Since there is no screw drive type I know by that name, this > der> leads me to wonder, what is it? > >I believe it is common in Europe, not common in North America. (I >have seen it in my Chevy Blazer, though.) You might find it in screws >that come with the fancy hinges you'll find in some nice furniture. > >Look for a screw that looks like a Phillips screw with additional >narrow grooves at 45 degree angles to the main slots. > >A Phillips bit will work moderately well on a Pozidriv screw, but the >proper bit will hold a great deal better and is well worth having. >They shouldn't be hard to find; all the tech tool catalogs I've seen >(like Jensen and Contact East) have them; so does SnapOn. You mean $napOn! Checkout the ads in NutsNVolts, you can buy a whole set of interchangeable bits for about $5. That's a fraction of what SnapOn or the TechTool suppliers will charge you for a single bit. Joe > > paul > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 1 18:47:21 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:47:21 -0400 Subject: Oops! I meant HP 64000 LDS Manual! WAS: HP 9133/9134/9135 service manual Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050601194721.00a4d6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> This afternoon David send me a PDF copy of the HP 64000 Logic Developement System Configuration manual. I've posted it in the same directory with the HP disk drive manual. Joe David Bryan just scanned and sent me a copy of "HP's 5 1/4-Inch Winchester Disc Drive Service Documentation" (HP 09134-90032, August 1983) for the old style HP 9133/9134 and 9135 disk drives. Besides the always useful service information, it includes explainations of which drives can be made to look like 4 1.15Mb floppy drives for use on the HP-85 and other small systems that don't normally use the HP hard drives. I've posted it at "http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/HP%20Docs/". Thanks David! Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 1 18:33:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:33:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: VR201s free-ish, and more. In-Reply-To: <20050601075501.38646.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> from "lee davison" at Jun 1, 5 08:55:01 am Message-ID: > > Uncovered a couiple of these and no longer need them. > As they were stored I guess they work but don't have > cables to test them. > > Ed, they may work with the HP-86s. 8^)= They should do. I posted the VR201 pinout last week, you can ignore the 2 keyboard lines on the DA15 (these just route to the connector-that's-not-really-an-RJ11 :-)). Of course you have to provide the VR201 with 12V DC power from somewhere. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 1 18:06:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:06:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 31, 5 05:56:04 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > To replace an original part with a different part with no valid reason it is > > a shame, part of history is lost for no good reason. > > The argument then boils down to what is or is not a "valid" reason, and > whether the change is enough to get in an uproar over (i.e. "history is > lost" if two screws are replaced). I would argue that history is lost if _any_ change is made, and certainly if any part is replaced. What it comes down to, really, is 'is the benefit from making that change worth the loss of history'? Since non-working computers have little interest, I would claim that replacements needed to get or keep a machine going are likely to be worth doing. But I am still not happy with replacing a part just because you don't want to buy the right tool. Also, please remember that this machine is owned by a museum. I would expect museums to have higher standards for preserving originality than most enthusiasts. Pity this doesn't seem to be the case. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 1 18:12:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:12:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: <200506010118.VAA17247@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at May 31, 5 09:15:37 pm Message-ID: > > > I have a minimal tookit (flat blade, Phillips, Pozidriv, Torx, Allen > > keys) upstairs, [...] > > Which reminds me - I've seen this "Pozidriv" screw drive mentioned > elsewhere in this thread, as if it were a common type. Since there is It is very common in the UK/Europe. > no screw drive type I know by that name, this leads me to wonder, what > is it? (It may be another name for one I know, or it may be one I It's a crosspoint screwdriver, similar to a Phillips, but with a blunter tip angle, and officially little ridges between the main cross bits. The screw head has a starburst-like hole in it. If you try to turn a Pozidriv screw with a Phillips screwdriver or vice versa, you are very likely to damage the screwhead and possibly the screwdriver as well. That's why I keep both it my toolkit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 1 18:16:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:16:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <002801c56647$a1d96fa0$de3dd7d1@randy> from "Randy McLaughlin" at May 31, 5 08:17:03 pm Message-ID: > I personally have lost screws, I do not cry I replace them with the closest > I can find. Me too. Ditto if I get a machine with screws missing. I find screws with the right thread and put them in. Better that than having some part not properly fixed. > > If the tool needed was too expensive or I couldn't find it I would replace > the screws. Well, I might have a go at making the tool (or modifying one, e.g. drilling a hold in a Torx or Allen hex tool to fit a tamperproof screw if the right tool wasn't available). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 1 18:53:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:53:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9133/9134/9135 service manual In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050601095253.00948d50@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 1, 5 09:52:53 am Message-ID: > > David Bryan just scanned and sent me a copy of "HP's 5 1/4-Inch > Winchester Disc Drive Service Documentation" (HP > 09134-90032, August 1983) for the old style HP 9133/9134 and 9135 disk > drives. Besides the always useful service information, it includes For suitable values of 'useful' ;-). There are no full schematics, for example. I was suprised to see the alignment info for the index sensor in the ST506, etc. That's not something that normally needs adjustment. One other thing I noticed. In the parts list for one of the units (9133XV?), it calls the firmware EPROM the 'Coyote ROM'. Was that the codename for the 9133XV? Still quite an interesting manual, particularly the appendix which gives the command set. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 1 18:56:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:56:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <200506011648.JAA02338@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at Jun 1, 5 09:48:46 am Message-ID: > > >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > > ---snip--- > >However, I make those modifications as reversable as possible (I would > >rather not cut a PCB track, but sometimes there is no other way, for > >example). And I don't make them if I don't have to (which is what this > >darn thread started off about). > > > >-tony > > > > > > Hi > I guess I'm like you. I have a Olivetti M20 and wanted > to get the CPM-8000 running on it. The original memory > cards had 16K DRAMs that gave the system 224K. To run > CPM-8000 I needed to have 64K DRAMs. It required that I > unsolder the DRAMs, some capacitors and cut a power line > to configure for the larger DRAMs. Sounds like a very reasonable and useful mod to do. This is _certainly_ the sort of thing I would do to a classic computer and not worry about it. Yes, history is lost, but the benefits (here, being able to run CP/M-8000) outwiegh that IMHO. Talking of removing decoupling caps when changing from 16K to 64K DRAMs, one day I myse repeat the story of how an Epson QX10 graphics board led me a merry dance because the previous owner had done the 32K-128K upgrade, he'd replaced the chips, moved the links, and then had a machine that behaved very oddly... > While I would have prefered to get the larger memory > boards from the manufacture, this was not all that practical. > I felt that getting working images of the CPM-8000 was > more important. > A computer that doesn't work is an interesting pile of > hazardous waste. One that works is a window into what was. No diagreement there! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 1 19:08:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 01:08:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050601194404.00a4b730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 1, 5 07:44:04 pm Message-ID: > You mean $napOn! Checkout the ads in NutsNVolts, you can buy a whole > set of interchangeable bits for about $5. That's a fraction of what SnapOn > or the TechTool suppliers will charge you for a single bit. There's probably a good reason for that. My experience is that the cheap bits wear out quickly, they mangle the screwheads, etc. It is said 'The bad workman blames his tools' I've always though the reason for that is that the good workman has bought decent tools... -tony (I am not rich enough to buy cheap tools) From fernande at internet1.net Wed Jun 1 19:49:47 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:49:47 -0400 Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429E57AB.6040809@internet1.net> Half the time, cheap tools don't work well when they're new, either. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Tony Duell wrote: > -tony > (I am not rich enough to buy cheap tools) From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 1 20:18:57 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:18:57 -0500 Subject: classiccmp question Message-ID: <012001c56711$0d6dc5d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ok, I noticed that yet another of the password reminder emails went out - just got mine anyways. I was going to apologize about this - because I did get one complaint about a password being sent via email - so I went in months ago and turned off the 'email password reminder' function. I'm at a loss to explain why it went out again. I've checked it twice, once each of the past two months when the email went out. Before I did into this in detail, I thought I'd ask the rest of the list. Who all thinks password reminders should not be sent monthly? On the one hand, I'm not keen about sending passwords in plain text (but I assume people here don't use the same password for all their accounts, right?). On the other hand, the reminders also include information about how to unsubscribe, maintain your settings, etc. Those probably save me some time answering questions. Thoughts? Jay West From rsnats at bellsouth.net Wed Jun 1 20:24:20 2005 From: rsnats at bellsouth.net (xyz) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:24:20 -0500 Subject: Intel UPP103 Cable References: <200506011700.KAA02362@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <009101c56712$c6262cb0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> Dwight, I appreciate you taking a look this cable information. I have the MDS signal definitions in the MDS schematics. I know what signals are on the MDS end. I just have no way of knowing where they go Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:00 PM Subject: Re: Intel UPP103 Cable > >From: "xyz" > > > >I have a Intel MDS-800 and a UPP-103. I don't have the cable that connects the > two units. Both units have DB-25 D-type connectors. Does anyone have a wiring > diagram of this cable. > > > > Hi > I think I have it someplace. There are about 3 or 4 lines > that need to be twisted pairs with a ground lead. The original > used a bundle of twisted pairs that had black leads for the > one twisted lead. I many cases, the black leads carried data > signals and not ground. The cable manufacture only checked that > the cable had continuity and not that the right pairs > were twisted. > When I worked at Intel, I made a checker that would display > the number of incorrect twisted pairs by doing a transformer > coupling of the wires. > It may take me a while to look for the programmer cable > drawings. Hopefully, Joe or Dave can find one quicker. > Dwight > > > From rcini at optonline.net Wed Jun 1 20:55:36 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:55:36 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: <002c01c56716$2b9abdb0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I received a second set of boxes from my IMSAI donator. Today, I received the IMSAI itself, a copy box of BYTEs and a box of S100 cards. This adds to two copy boxes of 8" disks and another box of S100 boards I got a few weeks ago. The IMSAI is immaculate. Not a shread of dirt anywhere...even on the switches. Serial# 3526. I'm going to email Todd Fischer and see where this unit was in the production. I also received more BYTEs, so now I have a lot of spares. I'll have a list together over the weekend of what's spare, but IIRC they will mostly be in the 1977-1980 range. Now, on to the Altair. In a momentary bout of weakness, I put a Hail Mary bid on an 8800b on eBay last night and I won it. It'll be here next week. It's going to be a fun summer! Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 1 21:18:29 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> Message-ID: <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Bj?rn Vermo wrote: > In general, I have a strong dislike for PDF files for any other purpose > than to prepare for printing. > > It is not a format that is suitable for seaching, referencing or easy > manipulation. That's not necessarily true. It is true in the case of PDF files that only contain scanned images. > I want my digital information to be in a format that offers as much > syntactical information as possible, and keeps presentation separate > from content. Did I just hear someone volunteering to OCR, proof, and index the Bitsavers archive? Wow, I'm very impressed! > Please do not waste any time making new PDF documents, Please don't waste any time complaining about PDF documents. In many cases, you're lucky to get the data in any form at all. Eric From kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu Wed Jun 1 21:37:07 2005 From: kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark KAHRS) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:37:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Data I/O 2900 system disk? In-Reply-To: <200506011700.j51H0X2w035472@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506011700.j51H0X2w035472@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I obtained a Data I/O 2900 programmer at Dayton in rather grotty but serviceable shape. But it is missing it's little old floppy (the disk, not the drive). The Data I/O website is silent on this. Anyone know where to find one? Also, to add to Ethan's Dayton report: I saw several Ultra 1s [one going for $5 at the end of Saturday] but no DEC, No SGI and certainly no Xerox Altos. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 1 21:37:27 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:37:27 -0400 Subject: HP 9133/9134/9135 service manual In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050601095253.00948d50@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050601223727.00a1e320@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:53 AM 6/2/05 +0100, Tony wrote: >> >> David Bryan just scanned and sent me a copy of "HP's 5 1/4-Inch >> Winchester Disc Drive Service Documentation" (HP >> 09134-90032, August 1983) for the old style HP 9133/9134 and 9135 disk >> drives. Besides the always useful service information, it includes > >For suitable values of 'useful' ;-). All service manuals are useful, some are just more useful than others! (And some are only useful for TP.) Joe From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jun 1 22:39:18 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:39:18 -0500 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: <1117573840.15123.82.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050601223918.4db474fa.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 31 May 2005 23:38:06 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > agree or not. But it's certainly food for thought, and 5155's are > > going to be common as muck for a long time to come (second only to > > Osbornes I think; I don't want to see another one of those damn > > things in my life!). > > Actually. I've mever seen an Osbourne... The only portables I have of > that sort of size are the IBM 5155 and the HP IPC. > > > It's the irreversable stuff I don't like - people cutting holes in > > cases or tracks on PCBs to modify them etc.; reversible things I > > have no > > But PCB tracks can be easily un-cut -- just solder a piece of wire > over the break. Wire-wrap wire (stripped, of course) is ideal for > this. > Yikes! I am the guy who in the past has had to figure out what the HECK is wrong with a board, where somebody 'just tacked a piece of wire along the track.' Such forms of modification/repair often _disguise_ a wiring defect, and make it _more_ difficult to find the open line. The proper rework method (the only one allowed at the Medical Device manufacturers I have worked at) is to install an obvious jumper wire, and only from pad/hole to pad/hole. NEVER just 'tacked onto' a track. Never 'surface soldered' anywhere that there isn't a mechanical fit before heat/solder is applied. But I used to do troubleshooting/rework in an environment where the line workers would DISGUISE their screwups. Rip out a plated-through hole? Tack in a little ring made of #30 wire to SIMULATE the solder pad. They did whatever they could to 'get away' with not having to fix something properly (which would mean drawing attention to the fact that they'd screwed it up in the first place) GRRRR. Sorry for the rant. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 1 22:50:12 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: classiccmp question In-Reply-To: <012001c56711$0d6dc5d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <012001c56711$0d6dc5d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200506020357.XAA04254@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] password reminder emails [...] > Before I did into this in detail, I thought I'd ask the rest of the > list. Who all thinks password reminders should not be sent monthly? Provided there is a way to provoke such a reminder, clearly findable from the list admin bot's help response, I'd just as soon junk the monthly message. Not because it involves sending the password in the clear; I never use that password for anything anyway (not even its purported purpose; I can't remember ever using the password from one of those monthly reminder emails for *anything*, and I get them from something like half a dozen lists). > On the one hand, I'm not keen about sending passwords in plain text > (but I assume people here don't use the same password for all their > accounts, right?). I always let list managers that want to assign me passwords choose them themselves, so they generally aren't the same as any of my other passwords, no. :-) > On the other hand, the reminders also include information about how > to unsubscribe, maintain your settings, etc. Those probably save me > some time answering questions. Not questions from me, so I'm probably not a very useful data point. Whom you really need to hear from, it seems to me, is the people who *do* use those monthly reminders for something. I find them totally unnecessary clutter, but at one per month per list (and not all the lists I'm on, either), it's a thorougly tolerable level of totally unnecessary clutter. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Jun 1 23:25:52 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:25:52 -0700 Subject: classiccmp question In-Reply-To: <012001c56711$0d6dc5d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <012001c56711$0d6dc5d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200506012125.52358.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 01 June 2005 18:18, Jay West wrote: > Ok, I noticed that yet another of the password reminder emails went out - > just got mine anyways. --snip-- > > Thoughts? Almost every list I belong to sends out monthly notices with subscribe, unsubscribe and password info. For me, this is just fine - as I use "low priority" passwords for my list accounts. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From tomj at wps.com Thu Jun 2 00:28:11 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050601221640.R941@localhost> >> Please do not waste any time making new PDF documents, On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Please don't waste any time complaining about PDF documents. In many > cases, you're lucky to get the data in any form at all. D'OH!! :-) I recently saw the most impressive PDF I've ever seen -- on www.mscdirect.com, a catalog page -- presented as PDF -- had hyperlinks on product catalog numbers to the "shopping cart" mechanism. QUite nice. While I do believe PDFs are often abused and partially deserve their bloated reputation (Adobe pushes them too much) they can be used properly as containers for multiple-component documents. It's unfortunate that it's so much work to hand-type or "OCR" old documents to produce PDFs as lovely as MSC's. I've offered to help out with automation to produce PDFs or other efficient containers for a thousand or so scanned pages (TIFFs) to be bundled into chapter-sized chunks. (It's an American Motors factory parts catalog -- a year's automobile product line broken down into parts down to the solitary screw.) Does anyone have any references to cookbooks/how-to's on how to go about doing this sort of thing? From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 2 01:39:31 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Idiot Alert Message-ID: Will someone please talk to this guy before he single-handedly renders this hobby utterly ridiculous!?!? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5201588973&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 2 01:53:34 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Idiot Alert In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39448.71.129.198.222.1117695214.squirrel@71.129.198.222> > Will someone please talk to this guy before he single-handedly renders > this hobby utterly ridiculous!?!? Too late, but not because of that guy. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 2 04:44:54 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 05:44:54 -0400 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <20050601221640.R941@localhost> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050601221640.R941@localhost> Message-ID: <429ED516.nailOIC11GHTE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > [PDF's] they can be used properly as containers for multiple-component > documents Even better, if the original document truly is a vector drawing (lines, arcs, filled areas, text) then PDF is a really good choice for showing it around (of course, Postscript and SVG are good too). Rasterized renderings are so clunky compared to a vector graphic that you can zoom in on and get infinite resolution no matter what your zoom level. This doesn't cover many scanned documents, though. Vectorizing a scanned schematic would probably be slow and error-prone, especially if there is any noise in the original. But maybe someday it can be done. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 2 04:48:48 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 05:48:48 -0400 Subject: Idiot Alert In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429ED600.nailOK111J6DC@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Will someone please talk to this guy before he single-handedly > renders this hobby utterly ridiculous!?!? I've had several opportunities to pick up IBM card punches and tabulators over the past couple decades. If I had bought even just one of them, the storage, shipping, and crating expensives, not to mention all the effort in doing those things, would have dwarfed the Ebay price that they're going for today. It's new owner is probably a better choice than sending it to the smelter. (Which is probably where the ones I passed by went to!) Tim. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 2 05:53:12 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:53:12 +0000 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <20050601221640.R941@localhost> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050601221640.R941@localhost> Message-ID: <1117709592.18244.10.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 22:28 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > >> Please do not waste any time making new PDF documents, > > On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Please don't waste any time complaining about PDF documents. In many > > cases, you're lucky to get the data in any form at all. > > While I do believe PDFs are often abused and partially deserve > their bloated reputation (Adobe pushes them too much) they can be > used properly as containers for multiple-component documents. > > It's unfortunate that it's so much work to hand-type or "OCR" old > documents to produce PDFs as lovely as MSC's. Well, the best that can be hoped for is that OCR technology will gradually improve (one of the reasons I don't personally scan stuff as bi-level). Obviously the ultimate goal would be to have text stored as text (irrespective of surrounding markup - RTF / Word doc / HTML etc.) but the technology's probably not quite there yet. For the near future, the question's probably whether PDF over some other encapsulation format or seperate scan-per-page approach is the better choice (and there's the questions of what resolution / bit depth to scan at, whether any intermediate processing should be done to correct skewed pages etc.) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 2 06:13:43 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:13:43 +0000 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117710823.18244.30.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 00:06 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > > > To replace an original part with a different part with no valid reason it is > > > a shame, part of history is lost for no good reason. > > > > The argument then boils down to what is or is not a "valid" reason, and > > whether the change is enough to get in an uproar over (i.e. "history is > > lost" if two screws are replaced). > > I would argue that history is lost if _any_ change is made, and > certainly if any part is replaced. Much like modifying PCBs... :-) Remember this is a machine that's going to be used by children at events (well, assuming the primary one is out of action); it's going to have a very different life to static exhibits or operational machines that aren't left totally open for people to play with. > Also, please remember that this machine is owned by a museum. I would > expect museums to have higher standards for preserving originality than > most enthusiasts. Pity this doesn't seem to be the case. We have several 5155s, all in original state. Unifying the screws on one that's most likely to need to be dismantled seems like a sensible thing to do for that reason. Remember that these are not - at this time - rare machines. If at some stage they *do* become rare then fitting original screws is possible if needs be as we have reference machines (and very likely the relevant technical info on the shelf) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 2 06:18:10 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:18:10 +0000 Subject: classiccmp question In-Reply-To: <012001c56711$0d6dc5d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <012001c56711$0d6dc5d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1117711090.18262.36.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 20:18 -0500, Jay West wrote: > Ok, I noticed that yet another of the password reminder emails went out - > just got mine anyways. > > I was going to apologize about this Yahoo treats them as spam for some reason, so they get filtered as junk here anyway ;) Seems like it's no big deal to keep sending them though, it's a fraction of a percent of total classiccmp traffic, and it might help people who don't realise that the normal list message headers have the URL in that can be visited to get a password reminder. cheers Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 2 07:20:42 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 07:20:42 -0500 Subject: Idiot Alert In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050602071801.04657e38@mail> At 01:39 AM 6/2/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Will someone please talk to this guy before he single-handedly renders >this hobby utterly ridiculous!?!? >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5201588973&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 Provenance, my boy! And it's nearly-working, if not working. Why not yell about '6$', the other bidder who was ready to go all the way to $888? A U of P shill? Why, there's two people out there ready to ruin this hobby by making it financially interesting! So what is the perfect price in Sellam's world? - John From James at jdfogg.com Thu Jun 2 08:16:56 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:16:56 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045ACB@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I received a second set of boxes from my IMSAI donator. > Today, I received the IMSAI itself, a copy box of BYTEs and a > box of S100 cards. This adds to two copy boxes of 8" disks > and another box of S100 boards I got a few weeks ago. Did I mention you suck :-) ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 2 08:16:21 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:16:21 +0000 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector Message-ID: <1117718181.18403.13.camel@weka.localdomain> Does anyone have the pinouts of the Nascom 2 keyboard connector handy? I'm wondering if there are any duplicated ground lines such that I can get away with running a cable via DA15 connectors (the connectors on the '2 and keyboard PCBs are 16 pin headers) I'm pretty sure there are duplicates but I don't have a huge amount of Nascom docs here at present (certainly not schematics) I'm at the point where I've got a nice keyboard shell made up for my Nascom's keyboard from a mixture of wood and aluminium, and need to fit a socket to the back of it... cheers Jules From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Thu Jun 2 09:06:25 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:06:25 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: Yes, I think I heard this before :-) I'm excited. I opened the IMSAI last night and it's immaculate inside. There's only a slight layer of dust on the power supply section. The buss connectors look like they're in great shape and the switches appear only gently used with a nice "snap" action. I spoke to Todd Fischer and he places the serial number (#3526) in either the second or third quarters of 1976. A Bicentennial IMSAI! I've never seen an IMSAI before in-person. The front panel does not have the white "IMSAI 8080" logo. You can see a silhouette of it under the Plexiglas mask. Does the logo light-up when turned on? Maybe this is a replacement mask (although the screws do not appear to be disturbed)? It hasn't been used in 15 years. I'm going to load the supply this weekend and hook it up to a variac. Does anyone have any recommendations for appropriate supply loading for testing purposes? Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Fogg Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 9:17 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too > I received a second set of boxes from my IMSAI donator. > Today, I received the IMSAI itself, a copy box of BYTEs and a > box of S100 cards. This adds to two copy boxes of 8" disks > and another box of S100 boards I got a few weeks ago. Did I mention you suck :-) ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From charlesb at otcgaming.net Thu Jun 2 09:27:19 2005 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (Charles Blackburn) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:27:19 +0100 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <1117718181.18403.13.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000201c5677f$2f9998f0$0500a8c0@gamemachine> Ahhh the memories of the nascom..... I used to have one of those... Was brilliant... Even better was when I got the green screen and the floppy drives!!!!!!! Major 1337ness :D Regards and 73 Charles - 2E0GOM ARICC UK Co-Ordinator - http://www.aricc.org Kirklees RAYNET - http://www.kirkleesraynet.org.uk > -----Original Message----- > From: Jules Richardson [mailto:julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk] > Sent: 02 June 2005 14:16 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector > > > > Does anyone have the pinouts of the Nascom 2 keyboard > connector handy? > > I'm wondering if there are any duplicated ground lines such > that I can get away with running a cable via DA15 connectors > (the connectors on the '2 and keyboard PCBs are 16 pin headers) > > I'm pretty sure there are duplicates but I don't have a huge > amount of Nascom docs here at present (certainly not schematics) > > I'm at the point where I've got a nice keyboard shell made up > for my Nascom's keyboard from a mixture of wood and > aluminium, and need to fit a socket to the back of it... > > cheers > > Jules > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.2 - Release Date: 31/05/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.2 - Release Date: 31/05/2005 From bv at norbionics.com Wed Jun 1 02:54:45 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:54:45 +0200 Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <429C15BA.4050507@gjcp.net> References: <429C15BA.4050507@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 31 May, 2005, at 09:43, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > r.stricklin wrote: > >> Until you bark your knuckles and need some bactine and a band-aid. >> Citroen repair is OT. It's no huge thing, just please don't give us >> this shaky rationalization. >> ok >> bear > > Oooh, I don't know, the oldest XMs are 16 years old and have a hell of > a lot of computers in them. Just the place for a 68HCxx enthusiast to > go and play... ;-) Actually, I have always been fascinated by the analog computers in old cars. My CX Turbo has a few of them, but I never dared touch the things. -- -bv From mbbrutman at brutman.com Wed Jun 1 15:18:10 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:18:10 -0500 Subject: system 36 on eBay In-Reply-To: <200506011700.j51H0X35035472@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506011700.j51H0X35035472@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <429E1802.7000003@brutman.com> Michael wrote: >> I have code in that thing .. (Specifically the low level OS that the 36 emulator is running on top of.) > Is that one of the machines that uses System/38 CISC hardware? Eric It's actually an early version of the RISC processor used in the more modern AS/400/iSeries machines. The memory is fuzzy now, so I may have some details incorrect. It was around 1994 and the System 36 was long since gone, and we were deep in product development of the new RISC based AS/400s. One use of the partially developed machine was as a System 36 replacement - with an emulator running on top of the partial OS of the new machine we could make the appearance of a System 36, and at a much better speed at that. Remember that for the port to RISC IBM had to rewrite a good portion of the OS to accomodate the new processor and hardware architecture. The older CISC based AS/400s used a 48 bit processor. The new ones were using a 64 bit variant of the Power PC. I don't think that most of the customers for the Advanced 36 (as this box was called) were aware that they were running on a pretty advanced PowerPC based machine. It was a nice trick. Mike From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jun 1 21:02:10 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:02:10 -0400 Subject: Update on HHC Basics Message-ID: <01C566F7.50F33AC0@H88.C223.tor.velocet.net> ----------Original Message: Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:45:48 -0400 From: David Betz Subject: Re: Update on HHC Basics Has anyone who ordered one of these ROMs received it yet? I haven't received mine and I've tried to send Roger email on a number of occasions and have gotten no reply. Has anyone else heard from him? Thanks, David ----------Reply: I have no use for the programmed EPROMs but Roger was kind enough to send me some blank ones from that pile, no problem. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jun 1 21:11:46 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:11:46 -0400 Subject: C64 ROMs Message-ID: <01C566F7.521091A0@H88.C223.tor.velocet.net> I seem to recall someone on this list looking for a C64 ROM; I've got a number of scrapped C64s, so if he/she reads this and is still looking, write me off-list and I'll see what I can find. mike From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Wed Jun 1 21:48:30 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:48:30 -0400 Subject: classiccmp question In-Reply-To: <012001c56711$0d6dc5d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <012001c56711$0d6dc5d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050601224749.02c8aec8@mail.n.ml.org> Jay, can't say I've experienced this. Maybe it just doesn't like you. Much like my 8570 doesn't like me. -John Boffemmyer IV At 09:18 PM 6/1/2005, you wrote: >Ok, I noticed that yet another of the password reminder emails went out - >just got mine anyways. > >I was going to apologize about this - because I did get one complaint >about a password being sent via email - so I went in months ago and turned >off the 'email password reminder' function. I'm at a loss to explain why >it went out again. I've checked it twice, once each of the past two months >when the email went out. > >Before I did into this in detail, I thought I'd ask the rest of the list. >Who all thinks password reminders should not be sent monthly? > >On the one hand, I'm not keen about sending passwords in plain text (but I >assume people here don't use the same password for all their accounts, >right?). On the other hand, the reminders also include information about >how to unsubscribe, maintain your settings, etc. Those probably save me >some time answering questions. > >Thoughts? > >Jay West From john.vc at btinternet.com Wed Jun 1 22:24:19 2005 From: john.vc at btinternet.com (John) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 04:24:19 +0100 Subject: HP 9915 system Development Manual wanted Message-ID: <001a01c56722$aa4191a0$6400000a@maddy> Hi, I am looking for a complete copy of the following, if anyone has seen this please get in touch or send a message to cctalk at classiccmp.org: HP 9915 System Development manual 9915 Tape Duplication and EPROM Programming Software I once had these (over 20 years ago), I noted one program included was called SHRINK, which removed all the comments from a Basic program. There is an incomplete copy of the manual here: http://www.series80.org/HP-9915A/HP9915-SysDev.pdf (site or DNS currently down) this should help identify it. Thanks, John From bv at norbionics.com Thu Jun 2 05:09:38 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:09:38 +0200 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:18:29 +0200, Eric Smith wrote: > Bj?rn Vermo wrote: >> Please do not waste any time making new PDF documents, > > Please don't waste any time complaining about PDF documents. In many > cases, you're lucky to get the data in any form at all. > You do not get my point: Instead of adding an extra step to make PDF files, I think it is better to keep the raw scans. Preferably as PNGs, but if the scanner software does not provide that, TIFF is workable. Thus, those who scan things (a task I really appreciate a lot) do not spend valuable time making the results less accessible, and it will be easy to OCR the images later on. My point is that a pure bitmap is both easier to make and more useable than an Acrobat document, both for archival purposes and for further work. The problem with TIFF is that it is bulky and not a single well-defined format, so it happens that software A will generate a TIFF that cannot be displayed by software B. PNG is a nice, open and flexible format which is designed to be the best cross-platform lossless image format. -- Bj?rn From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 2 05:52:24 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for IRIX CD's... In-Reply-To: <1116706693.381.42.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050602105224.46439.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> ...just recently picked up a few Indy's and Indigo 2's, including some poiple ones :). Not an OS in sight though :(. Also interested in acquiring an Ultra 10 or 5 machine...to play with. __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 2 09:56:44 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:56:44 +0000 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117724204.18403.16.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 10:06 -0400, Cini, Richard wrote: > I've never seen an IMSAI before in-person. The front panel does not have the > white "IMSAI 8080" logo. You can see a silhouette of it under the Plexiglas > mask. Does the logo light-up when turned on? Maybe this is a replacement > mask (although the screws do not appear to be disturbed)? Are you sure it's actually an IMSAI? ;) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jun 2 10:01:19 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:01:19 -0400 Subject: need a source of 7501 micros Message-ID: <0IHG001ETPPLIAE2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: need a source of 7501 micros > From: Chris M > Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:16:31 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >....as used in the Commodore Plus 4. Preferably new >*lol*. Hey...you never know... > You'd be mighty lucky to get what you want. The 7501 is a mask programmed 4bit micro with LCD driver containing a 1024byte program rom and 96 nibbles of ram. Where used it's a custom part due to the rom. Know the part well as I used to be the product engineer. Allison From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Jun 2 10:12:30 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:12:30 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: <20050602151222.TENO16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Rich, >I've never seen an IMSAI before in-person. The front panel does not have the >white "IMSAI 8080" logo. You can see a silhouette of it under the Plexiglas >mask. Does the logo light-up when turned on? Maybe this is a replacement >mask (although the screws do not appear to be disturbed)? The "IMSAI 8080" does not light up and should appear clearly visible in white. Sounds like the logo was removed for some reason ... hopefully it was covered with a bit of black paper and not "backed out with a marker". I have a decent picture of an IMSAI front panel by itself on my website. For now, the easiest way to get to it is to click on "Vector 1+" which will take you to my general S-100 section, and scroll up ... the photo just before the Vector is an IMSAI panel. (at the time I did the last update I only had the panel which is why there is no listing for a machine - I have since acquired a complete IMSAI which will have it's own section at my next major update which should be within the next couple of weeks). The panel is quite easy to take off/apart. First remove the power switch connections from the upper corner of the panel in front of the power supply (live AC - do this unplugged obviously) and umbilical cable from the CPU board. There are 8 small hex screws in the front of the panel - when you remove them, be careful as the spacers from the rear and center boards will drop out (Took me 1/2 hour of searching the floor of my workshop the first time I "discovered" this. After that, the panel should just unplug from the S-100 bus and come out. The various pieces will separate, you should be able to remove the plexiglass front and get at the insert which has the labels and logo - Be VERY careful as the layers can stick together, take them apart slowly to avoid damage. Behind the insert is a "foil" paper which blocks light to all but the desired places. At this point you should be able to determine what was done to the logo, and if it is recoverable. Putting it together is the reverse - Assemble the layers and internal spacers, and insert the hex screws far enough to just stick out the back, then carefully plug the panel into the S-100 bus, making sure not to pull the screws out and' drop the internal spaces. I found it easiest to install the two middle/bottom spaces first, using thin long nose pliers to slide them in place while extracting the screws just enough to let them pass - then put the screws in enough to catch in the threads but leave them out far enough that you can still rock the panel back and forth. After that, it's easy to put in the remaining spaces around the edges, and once all is in place and looking good, you can snug them in. I've had both of my panels apart without too much difficulty. >It hasn't been used in 15 years. I'm going to load the supply this weekend >and hook it up to a variac. > >Does anyone have any recommendations for appropriate supply loading for >testing purposes? As it's a linear supply, you don't really nead to load it initially. I highly recommend powering it through a series light bulb and bring up the line voltage slowly. Monitor the DC levels and you should see +8, +/-16 coming up as the line voltage rises. With something this old, it's a good idea to bring it up in steps allowing plenty of time for the capacitors to reform at each step. With no load on the supply, the light bulb should not glow at all, except briefly during initial charging of the capactors (which you won't see if you are bringing it up slowly). If the light glows as you bring up the supplies, you likely have a shorted filter capactor or failed rectifier diodes. (sometimes the chassis fan draws enough power to cause the lamp to glow dimmly buy it should not glow brightly with an unloaded supply). Once you have it running at operational voltages, it's a good idea to test it under a load and observe the waveform at the filter capacitors with a scope. A 20-40 watt 12v bulb works pretty good for this. Get it up and running and delivering a few amps of power and look for excessive ripple - this would indicate dried out capactiors. Btw, be sure to remove the series light bulb before attempting load tests. Always be careful when working on the IMSAI as it has AC line voltage to the front panel which is unprotected when the cover is off. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 10:12:58 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:12:58 +0100 Subject: IBM 8513 monitors Message-ID: <575131af050602081217e816fb@mail.gmail.com> This is the original IBM VGA monitor from 1987. I'm still using one of these alongside my classic Model M keyboards. I'm keeping it to go with my original (but now heavily tricked-out) PS/2 Model 80-A21 (16MB RAM! 1.3GB of SCSI disk! CD! NIC! Windows NT Server 3.51 SP5! (All right, it does also have PC DOS 7 and OS/2 Warp Server 4, but I can't get Warp to talk to the NIC, so that's just a curiosity, whereas NT runs like a dream on it. Rock solid, just sluggish.) However, of the 2 8513s I have, one no longer shows an image. It's just silently died. The power LED comes on but the screen is blank. I have another 8513 in very occasional service at a client of mine's but I plan to rescue it if they ever bin it. Does the list think anyone would want a dead 8513, for repair or whatever, or should I just bin this venerable VDU after 18yr of loyal service? -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Jun 2 10:17:28 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:17:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <1117718181.18403.13.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1117718181.18403.13.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <57397.135.196.233.27.1117725448.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > > Does anyone have the pinouts of the Nascom 2 keyboard connector handy? handy at the weekend, yes :) In the meanwhile you could always try the Nascom home page: http://www.nascomhomepage.com/ > cheers -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 2 10:14:25 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:14:25 +0000 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <000201c5677f$2f9998f0$0500a8c0@gamemachine> References: <000201c5677f$2f9998f0$0500a8c0@gamemachine> Message-ID: <1117725265.18405.34.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 15:27 +0100, Charles Blackburn wrote: > Ahhh the memories of the nascom..... I used to have one of those... Was > brilliant... Even better was when I got the green screen and the floppy > drives!!!!!!! Heh, this one came from a local chap in the most enormous plywood case I've ever seen and was in a rather sorry state - cut / loose wires everywhere, connectors hanging off etc. I always wanted a computer that was appropriate for putting into a wooden case though, just for the fun of making my own box for it more than anything. Needless to say the house-sized plywood case was removed and I set about building my own... I'll hopefully chuck some pics up in a few days; there's not a lot left to do construction-wise. Then I get the joy of fixing the machine if needs be... cheers Jules From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Jun 2 10:33:39 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:33:39 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've never seen an IMSAI before in-person. The front panel does > not have the white "IMSAI 8080" logo. You can see a silhouette > of it under the Plexiglas mask. Does the logo light-up when turned > on? Maybe this is a replacement mask (although the screws do not > appear to be disturbed)? If I recall correctly, the "logo" is composed of two parts, one is a clear plastic sheet with black printing that gives the shape of all of the letters, switch and light legends, etc. Behind that, there should be a sheet of foil backed white paper. Those two sheets are sandwiched between a sheet of clear and red Plexiglas. Sounds like you are missing the white sheet. Bill From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Jun 2 10:39:06 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:39:06 +0200 Subject: need a source of 7501 micros In-Reply-To: <0IHG001ETPPLIAE2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <429F443A.29050.53C6E2D5@localhost> Am 2 Jun 2005 11:01 meinte Allison: > >Subject: need a source of 7501 micros > > From: Chris M > > Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:16:31 -0700 (PDT) > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >....as used in the Commodore Plus 4. Preferably new > >*lol*. Hey...you never know... > You'd be mighty lucky to get what you want. > The 7501 is a mask programmed 4bit micro with LCD driver > containing a 1024byte program rom and 96 nibbles of ram. > Where used it's a custom part due to the rom. > Know the part well as I used to be the product engineer. Well, seams to be a close miss :) The 7501 is a Commodore 6502 or to be more exact, its the HMOS version of the NMOS 6510 as used in the C64, which is a rather plain 6502 with one 7 bit paralell port on chip. Later on the 8501 was done as a result of another process change, eventualy leading to the 8502 as used in the C128. So, if you search for a 7501 replacement, any 6510 might do it ... with some additional soldering, since Commodore shifted the pins arround with every version. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Thu Jun 2 10:42:46 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:42:46 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: I'll have to separate that part of the panel. What is the "white sheet" made of? Would glossy white card stock work? Maybe it slipped down out of view of the mask. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Sudbrink Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:34 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too > I've never seen an IMSAI before in-person. The front panel does > not have the white "IMSAI 8080" logo. You can see a silhouette > of it under the Plexiglas mask. Does the logo light-up when turned > on? Maybe this is a replacement mask (although the screws do not > appear to be disturbed)? If I recall correctly, the "logo" is composed of two parts, one is a clear plastic sheet with black printing that gives the shape of all of the letters, switch and light legends, etc. Behind that, there should be a sheet of foil backed white paper. Those two sheets are sandwiched between a sheet of clear and red Plexiglas. Sounds like you are missing the white sheet. Bill From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 2 11:05:49 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:05:49 +0000 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <57397.135.196.233.27.1117725448.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <1117718181.18403.13.camel@weka.localdomain> <57397.135.196.233.27.1117725448.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1117728349.18405.48.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 16:17 +0100, Witchy wrote: > > > > Does anyone have the pinouts of the Nascom 2 keyboard connector handy? > > handy at the weekend, yes :) In the meanwhile you could always try the > Nascom home page: > > http://www.nascomhomepage.com/ ta. Hmm... looks like it strictly needs 16 pins on the Nascom 2 - although I can't find a keyboard schematic yet (just one for the Nascom 1, which looks to be rather different) I suppose I could have the reset switch with the case rather than on the keyboard in order to save myself a line between keyboard and box - anyone know if the reset switch on the Nascom 2 keyboard does anything on the keyboard itself, or does it merely connect the CPU board's reset to ground (as with the Nascom 1 keyboard)? It's either that (and use a DA15) or use a DB25 (hence thicker cable) with lots of unused wires... hmmm... cheers Jules From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Jun 2 11:16:54 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:16:54 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: <20050602161652.CXBM5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >>If I recall correctly, the "logo" is composed of two parts, one is a >>clear plastic sheet with black printing that gives the shape of all >>of the letters, switch and light legends, etc. Behind that, there >>should be a sheet of foil backed white paper. Those two sheets are >>sandwiched between a sheet of clear and red Plexiglas. Sounds like >>you are missing the white sheet. >I'll have to separate that part of the panel. What is the "white sheet" made >of? Would glossy white card stock work? Maybe it slipped down out of view of >the mask. There are four "layers" to the IMSAI panel. At the very front is a layer of clear plexiglass - for protection, and the outer layer of the "sandwich". Behind that is a thin layer of mylar, which is entirely coated in black, except for the panel lettering which is clear (ie: "reverse video"), and clear rectangles where the LED's show through. Behind that is a piece of material which is white on the front, and foil coated on the back. In the rectangles where the LEDs show through, there is nothing. The rearmost layer is a sheet of red plexiglass. The LEDs show through the red plexiglas, though the holes in the white/foil piece, though the clear rectangles in the mylar and through the clear front piece - the red plexiglas in the read give them a nice obscured/deep-red background. The panel lettering is the white side of the white/foil piece which is visible through the clear lettering in the mylar, and the clear front panel. This piece would not "Drop" or shift because it has 8 screw holes through it and is held in place by the other pieces and the screws, and also because if it could, it would hit the panel switches. It would not make sense (although possible) to remove the white/foil piece, since this would render ALL front panel lettering invisible, and would also allow the LEDs to be visible at angles when they should not (when looking through the lettering for example). I think it more likely that the white part behind the IMSAI 8080 has been removed or covered. It may be as simple as removing a piece of black paper from behind the IMSAI 8080 logo - If necessary, you may have to cut a piece of white paper to fit in this space. The worse case scenario would be if the former owner used a black marker to color the IMSAI 8080 clear letters from the rear of the panel... This might also be repairable, but be very careful not to remove the intentionally black parts. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Jun 2 11:26:42 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:26:42 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: <20050602162641.UIDX16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >There are four "layers" to the IMSAI panel. More accurately, there are five layers, the four I just described, with the 5th one being the circuit board with LEDs and switches mounted etc. Regards. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 2 11:49:22 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <429ED516.nailOIC11GHTE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > This doesn't cover many scanned documents, though. Vectorizing a > scanned schematic would probably be slow and error-prone, especially > if there is any noise in the original. But maybe someday it can be > done. The systems I saw about ten years ago were damn good. I assume they have become better, just like OCR. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Thu Jun 2 15:34:57 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:34:57 -0500 Subject: C128 CPM Boot Disk Message-ID: <429F6D71.404@vzavenue.net> Anyone have a CPM+ boot disk for a Commodore 128D? From dwight.elvey at AMD.com Thu Jun 2 12:10:58 2005 From: dwight.elvey at AMD.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: <200506021710.KAA03024@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dave Dunfield" > ---snip--- > >The "IMSAI 8080" does not light up and should appear clearly visible in white. >Sounds like the logo was removed for some reason ... hopefully it was covered >with a bit of black paper and not "backed out with a marker". > > Hi My IMSAI came with as piece of black paper over the logo. I was told that it was used for early development work. This is consistent with the fact that it had one of the early Digital Systems floppy controllers that transferred by DMA. The only problem I have is that the serial number is missing :( Dwight From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Jun 2 12:23:43 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:23:43 -0500 Subject: C128 CPM Boot Disk References: <429F6D71.404@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <000901c56797$d3d37360$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "James Rice" Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 3:34 PM > Anyone have a CPM+ boot disk for a Commodore 128D? Funet has a great commie archive: http://www.funet.fi/pub/cpm/ALLFILES.html To create a disk you need a special cable that allows a PC to connect to a commie drive. You can build your own or buy one from ebay or off the web (cheap or easy to build). Individual files or whole disk images can be transfered. Randy From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 2 12:35:05 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:35:05 -0400 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <200506021423.j52EN3hQ046964@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200506021735.j52HZ3YG020595@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Some of the attitudes here about PDF impress me as about the most ludditical (is there such a word?) as I've seen in a long time. Suppose you have a CompuPro memory card and no manual. The card is useless. I give you the PDF file of the manual. You can look at the manual on-screen, or you can print it and you HAVE the hard copy manual. In color, where the original was in color, and with quality that may be indistinguishable from (or in some cases actually better than) the original manual when it was new. Is that a benefit? Is it better than no manual at all? Is it, essentially, as good as being able to call CompuPro (which no longer exists) and order a new manual, FOR FREE, and have it delivered INSTANTLY? So what if it's not "searchable". Get a clue: THE ORIGINAL PAPER MANUAL WAS NOT "SEARCHABLE". But if you or anyone else wants it to be searchable they are certain welcome to OCR the document, a capability which Acrobat supports. (Note that if it was EITHER made from it's source document (e.g. Word or whatever) OR if it was "OCR'd" (which Acrobat itself can do), it WILL be searchable. The people who don't like PDFs either have not used Acrobat extensively or don't understand the real nature of the prouduct. Acrobat allows you to create an electronic document that can have as many features (or as few) as the creator wants: -Page images -Searchable, exportable, "copyable" text -Fonts and graphics -Printable -Fully "rearrangeable" (re-sequence, add, delete, replace pages) -Table of Contents (as hyperlink) -Index -Movies, photos, sound and other multimedia objects -Security control, passwords determining who can do what And it and the documents it creates are multi-platform: PC, Apple, Linux, Sun, IBM mainframe .... virtually every computer platform in existence. It's one of the best and most wonderful tools that the PC world has ever created. Sorry if it's proprietary, but sometimes quality tools are only created by people who want to be paid for their work. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 2 12:35:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system Message-ID: I'm currently seeking to purchase a complete BBC Domesday system with the LVROM player, trackball, discs, manuals, and of course the BBC Master system with the appropriate hardware. I'd also consider pieces of one (especially the manuals) but the entire setup is my main preference. This is for a research project I'm currently undertaking and I am willing to compensate handsomely. I'd also consider a short- to medium-term loan. This is basically directed at the blokes in the UK as that is obviously the most likely place for one to show up. If someone has one or perhaps a lead on a system, please contact me directly. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 2 12:40:59 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:40:59 -0400 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <200506021423.j52EN3hQ046964@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200506021741.j52HeuXW027562@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: >You do not get my point: Instead of adding an extra step to make PDF >files, I think it is better to keep the raw scans. Having scanned tens of thousands of pages, hundreds of manuals (the majority of which are available online, free, at Howard's site), let me make a few comments about that also: First, the scanning is done natively in Acrobat. You don't scan individual pages, and then create a PDF file from 100 individual files. You scan documents, not pages, Acrobat itself is the scanning program, there are no individual files to save. However, Acrobat becomes, in effect, a "container" for what are almost invariably "JPEG" files, and you can export individual JPEG or TIFF or pretty much {whatever format you want} files of each individual page, with a single mouse click. (and then, if you want, you can "touch them up" any way you want with any program you want, and then reimport the "new" page, either replacing the old page or as an additional page). I really don't think that you understand the nature and capabilities of the product (Acrobat) that you are criticizing. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 2 12:47:01 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 02, 2005 10:35:55 AM Message-ID: <200506021747.j52Hl1hl009561@onyx.spiritone.com> > I'm currently seeking to purchase a complete BBC Domesday system with the > LVROM player, trackball, discs, manuals, and of course the BBC Master > system with the appropriate hardware. Two things. 1. Isn't that a "Doomsday System" 2. Good Luck!!! I'd say the odds are against you. Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 12:56:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:56:07 -0500 Subject: Data I/O 2900 system disk? In-Reply-To: References: <200506011700.j51H0X2w035472@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 6/1/05, Mark KAHRS wrote: > > I obtained a Data I/O 2900 programmer at Dayton in rather grotty but > serviceable shape. If that was the one in the corner of the flea market, I spotted it, but didn't do much more than glance over it. > Also, to add to Ethan's Dayton report: I saw several Ultra 1s > [one going for $5 at the end of Saturday] but no DEC, No SGI > and certainly no Xerox Altos. Wow... I missed the Ultras. I probably wouldn't have picked one up anyway, as I'm after a box that can run Solaris 10 (working on that already; this isn't a troll for offers). I had hoped to find a BA-356 or two, as I've seen them there in the past. Alas, none were in plain sight. -ethan From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 2 13:03:48 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Idiot Alert In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Will someone please talk to this guy before he single-handedly renders > this hobby utterly ridiculous!?!? If you are referring to the buyer - well, not much can be done until the burnout happens. I have seen it with dozens of collectors in the old radio and computer field - guys that buy up everything in site, then drop out, or reduce their buying to zero (or a reasonable level). Very, very few people can sustain collecting like this, even with an unlimitted checkbook. It would be nice if he shared his collection. He has some nice things now. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Jun 2 13:08:52 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:08:52 +0200 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <200506021735.j52HZ3YG020595@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200506021423.j52EN3hQ046964@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200506021735.j52HZ3YG020595@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050602180852.GK29043@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-06-02 13:35:05 -0400, Barry Watzman wrote: > So what if it's not "searchable". Get a clue: THE ORIGINAL PAPER MANUAL > WAS NOT "SEARCHABLE". But if you or anyone else wants it to be searchable > they are certain welcome to OCR the document, a capability which Acrobat > supports. That's one of the main points. Somebody who scanned a document spent some of his *own* time to ease things for other people. He'd give the PDF around, but this data is only available to the people who get that damn thing handed over. Having a nice set of scripts to automatically also OCR the images (text quality doesn't matter--all most important keywords will show up often enough so that *one* of them will most probably me correct). > The people who don't like PDFs either have not used Acrobat extensively or > don't understand the real nature of the prouduct. Acrobat allows you to > create an electronic document that can have as many features (or as few) as > the creator wants: We're talking about PDF, not about Acrobat. I yet have to see Acrobat running on vax-linux ... > -Page images > -Searchable, exportable, "copyable" text Needs to be generated and handled somewhere. > -Fonts and graphics > -Printable > -Fully "rearrangeable" (re-sequence, add, delete, replace pages) > -Table of Contents (as hyperlink) Needs to be created explicitely. > -Index Dito. > -Movies, photos, sound and other multimedia objects Those won't come out of my scanner :) > -Security control, passwords determining who can do what This is what I ban to hell. > And it and the documents it creates are multi-platform: PC, Apple, Linux, > Sun, IBM mainframe .... virtually every computer platform in existence. ...but Acrobat isn't. > It's one of the best and most wonderful tools that the PC world has ever > created. Sorry if it's proprietary, but sometimes quality tools are only > created by people who want to be paid for their work. Maybe we'll get something even *better* for archiving old documents and/or old *content* in general (right, think about disk images, programs, ...) It's not a tool problem, it's a conceptual thing that first needs some clever concepts. If we always only try to fix little spots of it, we won't ever get the big picture right. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Jun 2 13:29:50 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:29:50 -0400 Subject: 2004 VCF East Pictures... Message-ID: I just noticed somebody from Austin, Texas trying to access my pictures from last year's VCF East. I had a drive on my server crash a couple of weeks ago and hadn't gotten around to restoring them. They are available now: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/vcfe2004/ Bill From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 2 13:26:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: <200506021747.j52Hl1hl009561@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I'm currently seeking to purchase a complete BBC Domesday system with the > > LVROM player, trackball, discs, manuals, and of course the BBC Master > > system with the appropriate hardware. > > Two things. > > 1. Isn't that a "Doomsday System" No, destroying the world is my OTHER project that I manage in my copious spare time. I discuss that project on the Classic Megalomaniac mailing list. > 2. Good Luck!!! I'd say the odds are against you. Here in the US, absolutely. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 2 13:28:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 18:28:18 +0000 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <200506021735.j52HZ3YG020595@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200506021735.j52HZ3YG020595@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1117736898.18405.71.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 13:35 -0400, Barry Watzman wrote: > Some of the attitudes here about PDF impress me as about the most ludditical > (is there such a word?) as I've seen in a long time. > > Suppose you have a CompuPro memory card and no manual. The card is useless. > I give you the PDF file of the manual. You can look at the manual > on-screen, or you can print it and you HAVE the hard copy manual. In color, > where the original was in color, and with quality that may be > indistinguishable from (or in some cases actually better than) the original > manual when it was new. Hang on... For text, or a mixture of text and images, it's probably very good (and I expect stands up reasonably well against other markup formats such as RTF, Postscript, Word doc, HTML etc.). For wrapping up a bunch of images, where's the benefit? > So what if it's not "searchable". Get a clue: THE ORIGINAL PAPER MANUAL > WAS NOT "SEARCHABLE". Of course. But it seems a natural thing to want once the original is in some electronic form. Needless to say, I don't recall anyone ever saying that they don't appreciate the fantastic efforts of those who do scan and make documentation available (your message gave the impression of the opposite, at least to me) > (Note that if it was EITHER made from it's source document (e.g. Word or > whatever) OR if it was "OCR'd" (which Acrobat itself can do), it WILL be > searchable. I don't think anyone's suggested otherwise have they? Currently documentation archives seem to be 95% image scans, or image scans wrapped up in PDF files. There's very little plain text content (and even fewer cases where any construct has been put together containing text as text and diagrams etc. as images) I don't doubt that the search tools are very good for OCRed text, but then *maybe* they're just as good or better for other formats too? > Sorry if it's proprietary, but sometimes quality tools are only created by people who > want to be paid for their work. If it's proprietary then the less use it is for a long-term archival format though, surely? Same goes for complexity; increased complexity of the format makes it harder to extract the data without the relevant tool, which of course might be difficult to find in years to come... cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 2 13:34:23 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:34:23 -0400 Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] References: <200506010118.VAA17247@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <3.0.6.32.20050601194404.00a4b730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <17055.20783.194395.944715@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: Joe> You mean $napOn! Checkout the ads in NutsNVolts, you can buy a Joe> whole set of interchangeable bits for about $5. That's a Joe> fraction of what SnapOn or the TechTool suppliers will charge Joe> you for a single bit. Yes. The difference is that stuff that cheap typically doesn't fit and doesn't stand up to use. I once bought a cheap drillbit set. What I got was a box full of pieces of drillrod. They pretty much all had a spiral groove cut in the sides, though often only just barely. And there usually was at least a trace of a bevel at the tip. Cutting edge? Dream on... Fortunately, the seller honored his money-back guarantee. That's not to say I now buy my drill bits from SnapOn. But it does mean that I avoid Harbor Freight and all their clones for stuff like this. paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 2 13:43:36 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation Message-ID: <200506021843.LAA03046@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" > ---snip-- > >If it's proprietary then the less use it is for a long-term archival >format though, surely? Same goes for complexity; increased complexity of >the format makes it harder to extract the data without the relevant >tool, which of course might be difficult to find in years to come... > >cheers > >Jules Hi The distinction between a distribution tool and an archival tool. For images, the best archival format that I know of is the tiff. Not so much that there are copious tools for it but because it is about as simple a formatting for images as one can get. When down loading I prefer pdf's. It doesn't mean that I think that an archive should use pdf's to store the images. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 2 13:48:20 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] Message-ID: <200506021848.LAA03051@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Paul Koning" > >>>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: > > Joe> You mean $napOn! Checkout the ads in NutsNVolts, you can buy a > Joe> whole set of interchangeable bits for about $5. That's a > Joe> fraction of what SnapOn or the TechTool suppliers will charge > Joe> you for a single bit. > >Yes. The difference is that stuff that cheap typically doesn't fit >and doesn't stand up to use. > >I once bought a cheap drillbit set. What I got was a box full of >pieces of drillrod. They pretty much all had a spiral groove cut in >the sides, though often only just barely. And there usually was at >least a trace of a bevel at the tip. Cutting edge? Dream on... > >Fortunately, the seller honored his money-back guarantee. > >That's not to say I now buy my drill bits from SnapOn. But it does >mean that I avoid Harbor Freight and all their clones for stuff like >this. I only buy cheap tools when I understand the limitations. Cheap socket sets are only good for making spacers and tools to drive out seals and bearings. Dwight > > paul > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 2 13:46:38 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 18:46:38 +0000 Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117737998.18403.89.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 10:35 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'm currently seeking to purchase a complete BBC Domesday system with the > LVROM player, trackball, discs, manuals, and of course the BBC Master > system with the appropriate hardware. > > I'd also consider pieces of one (especially the manuals) but the entire > setup is my main preference. I scanned the user guide a while back - I think I've got all the set here in paper form though (including the service manual for the players) which are on my "to scan" list... > This is for a research project I'm currently undertaking and I am willing > to compensate handsomely. I'd also consider a short- to medium-term loan. Shipping will be a nightmare, and those LVROM players do *not* travel well (they don't sit there doing nothing very well either; I've never known any bit of kit so prone to breaking down!) If it's the data you're interested in, there is the CAMiLEON project who have it all converted from original disks: http://www.si.umich.edu/CAMILEON/ Paul Wheatley whose contact address is on the site is a helpful chap; I've dealt with him a few times in the past. Last I knew a few months ago there were huge issues of copyright though, so I don't know how much help they could be. Might be worth a try if the data's the important bit though. > If someone has one or perhaps a lead on a system, please contact me directly. I don't know of any for sale at present but will keep an ear to the ground. Worst case we've got one at the museum and I've got one at home, but I've already had to fix faults on the players serveral times - getting them across the pond intact would be next to impossible I think! :-( cheers Jules From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 2 13:50:22 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 02, 2005 11:26:55 AM Message-ID: <200506021850.j52IoM2K012091@onyx.spiritone.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > I'm currently seeking to purchase a complete BBC Domesday system with the > > > LVROM player, trackball, discs, manuals, and of course the BBC Master > > > system with the appropriate hardware. > > > > Two things. > > > > 1. Isn't that a "Doomsday System" > > No, destroying the world is my OTHER project that I manage in my copious > spare time. I discuss that project on the Classic Megalomaniac mailing > list. > > > 2. Good Luck!!! I'd say the odds are against you. > > Here in the US, absolutely. OK, I'd obviously forgotten where the name came from. A quick google search refreshes my memory on the subject and shows me that finding one might not be quite as difficult as I'd first thought. It's still going to be pretty hard to find one I imagine. For people wondering what on earth this is all about, here is an article. http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue36/tna/ Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 2 13:55:29 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: <1117737998.18403.89.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 02, 2005 06:46:38 PM Message-ID: <200506021855.j52ItTjq012209@onyx.spiritone.com> > I don't know of any for sale at present but will keep an ear to the > ground. Worst case we've got one at the museum and I've got one at home, > but I've already had to fix faults on the players serveral times - > getting them across the pond intact would be next to impossible I > think! :-( I somehow suspect that arrangements would need to be made to take fly over, and bring them back as "Carry On" luggage. Something that in this day and age is likely to be easier said than done :^( Zane From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 2 14:09:35 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:09:35 -0400 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Bj????rn" == Bj????rn Vermo writes: Bj????rn> On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:18:29 +0200, Eric Smith Bj????rn> wrote: >> Bj????rn Vermo wrote: >>> Please do not waste any time making new PDF documents, >> Please don't waste any time complaining about PDF documents. In >> many cases, you're lucky to get the data in any form at all. >> Bj????rn> You do not get my point: Instead of adding an extra step to Bj????rn> make PDF files, I think it is better to keep the raw Bj????rn> scans. Preferably as PNGs, but if the scanner software does Bj????rn> not provide that, TIFF is workable. So? Grab the PDF and export the bitmaps into it as whatever file you like, what's the big deal? paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 2 14:27:30 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:27:30 +0000 Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: <200506021855.j52ItTjq012209@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200506021855.j52ItTjq012209@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1117740450.18405.107.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 11:55 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I don't know of any for sale at present but will keep an ear to the > > ground. Worst case we've got one at the museum and I've got one at home, > > but I've already had to fix faults on the players serveral times - > > getting them across the pond intact would be next to impossible I > > think! :-( > > I somehow suspect that arrangements would need to be made to take fly over, > and bring them back as "Carry On" luggage. Something that in this day and > age is likely to be easier said than done :^( The players are pretty big - about four times the size of a DVD player (at least), not to mention quite heavy (for what they are). I doubt they'd be allowed on as carry-on luggage. It's the vibration I'd be bothered about rather than any temperature issue though. The quality of the solder work on all the players I've been inside is about the worst I've seen on any electronic equipment, plus they're constructed internally with a large backplane into which about ten PCBs are plugged. Then there are lots of interconnecting cables, plus a seperate 'slice' on the base with the SCSI interface board plus genlock / mixer boards. Lots of places where connections can fail! Most schools in the UK had at least one of these setups at one point; we took one over to the CGE show in London last year and it was amazing how popular it was! They're fascinating bits of equipment to sit there and mess around with (although the graphical UI is really showing its age and isn't the most intuitive thing ever!) cheers Jules From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 2 14:32:29 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:32:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <200506021936.PAA18082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> Please do not waste any time making new PDF documents, >> Please don't waste any time complaining about PDF documents. In >> many cases, you're lucky to get the data in any form at all. > You do not get my point: Instead of adding an extra step to make PDF > files, I think it is better to keep the raw scans. I'm entirely with you. But that said, I'd rather have a PDF than nothing at all, and it seems many of the people scanning stuff are unwilling to do anything else. :-? > PNG is a nice, open and flexible format which is designed to be the > best cross-platform lossless image format. ...something it is noticeably worse at than the netpbm family (pbm, pgm, ppm). (I can hardly imagine writing png-format image software without using a library. I routinely do so with p?m formats.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 2 14:39:31 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:39:31 -0400 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <200506021936.PAA18082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <17055.24691.656903.200214@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> PNG is a nice, open and flexible format which is designed to be >> the best cross-platform lossless image format. der> ...something it is noticeably worse at than the netpbm family der> (pbm, pgm, ppm). (I can hardly imagine writing png-format image der> software without using a library. I routinely do so with p?m der> formats.) Sure, but that's because the netpbm formats are designed to be maximally trivial, so they are extremely inefficient. If you want compression, it won't be trivial, ever. paul From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 2 14:52:15 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:52:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <200506021735.j52HZ3YG020595@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200506021735.j52HZ3YG020595@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <200506022003.QAA18272@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The people who don't like PDFs either have not used Acrobat > extensively or don't understand the real nature of the prouduct. We're talking about PDFs, not Acrobat and not PDF+Acrobat. Or at least *I* am. No, I have not used Acrobat extensively, and that little only long ago at a past workplace - and it was an unpleasant experience. I never will as it is closed source - nothing I don't have source to goes on my machines. > Acrobat allows [...] Those are reasons to use Acrobat, maybe. They are not reasons to use PDFs, unless you think of PDF as an Acrobat-only format. You can't have it both ways. > It's one of the best and most wonderful tools that the PC world has > ever created. Sorry if it's proprietary, but sometimes quality tools > are only created by people who want to be paid for their work. And your point is...? You appear to be saying "PDF is fine because there is good proprietary software to work with PDF files". Some of us are not willing to go with proprietary formats. PDF tries to be open, but it's not very; as you point out, the only good software for working with it is proprietary - and even they can't seem to get it right; I've lost count of the number of PDFs I've picked up that ghostscript calls out for violating Adobe's specs - and when it prints the creator, it turns out to have been an Adobe program. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 2 15:04:14 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:04:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <200506021741.j52HeuXW027562@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200506021741.j52HeuXW027562@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <200506022005.QAA18296@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> You do not get my point: Instead of adding an extra step to make PDF >> files, I think it is better to keep the raw scans. > [...not if Acrobat does the scanning...] > I really don't think that you understand the nature and capabilities > of the product (Acrobat) that you are criticizing. We are - or at least I am - not criticizing Acrobat, but rather the choice of PDF. If you can't keep the two separate, that is part of the problem. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 2 15:19:03 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:19:03 -0500 Subject: HP2000 Message-ID: <005301c567b0$522971c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Just scored (and received in the mail today) something off ebay I've been wanting for some time. There was a nice 8 page foldout color brochure with intact "more info" mail-in card for the HP2000 (TSB) computer system there, mint condition. I halfheartedly bid, because I couldn't tell for sure if the brochure was for the general HP2000 stuff or if it was specific to TSB. Turns out it was quite specific to TSB and it's simply gorgeous. Am I the only collector that actually ponders sending in warranty cards or sales response cards (as a joke) for a product that was discontinued 30 years ago? I always giggle about the look on the recipients face. But I'd never write on an original card :) Now I need to see if Kinkos can blow the cover up into a nice marketing poster to frame and hang on the wall next to the old girl - since I can't seem to find any real HP2000 posters. On another note... the brochure reminded me that there are a few bits and pieces of HP2000/TSB software that I've never found. They aren't terribly critical, but I want to be complete. Would anyone have copies of any of the following HP software on mag tape? SDE/2000 (source data entry) EDITOR/2000 (duh) TSP/2000-HASP (telecommunications supervisory package) FCOPY/2000 (file utility) I think FCOPY I already have on the MCP tape, but I think the others were separate tapes. In addition, it would be rather neat to have a copy of the CAI (computer assisted instruction), IDF (instructional dialogue facility), and CWF (course writing facility) software load tapes. I actually used IDF on the HP2K at my high school, but it'd be nice to find all these optional software modules. Regards, Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 2 15:20:57 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:20:57 -0500 Subject: collector in Arizona/Nevada? Message-ID: <005f01c567b0$96388a40$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> A collector in Arizona or Nevada (can't remember which) emailed me yesterday or today, and when I was accessing my mailbox remotely I accidentally deleted the email :\ Can whoever it was please re-email me? I know I wanted to respond to that email. Jay West From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 2 15:23:23 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:23:23 -0400 Subject: Idiot Alert In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429F6ABB.3040203@atarimuseum.com> WOW!!! Flashback attack! I used to run one of those in High School (McKee on Staten Island) it used to be used for attendance tracking of students, no one knew how it worked, I figured it out and used to work in the office afterschool run all the attendance punchcards... Man, looking back now, I could've made some serious $$$$ "fixing" students attendance for them ;-) I was more focused on running the beast and having fun with it, since I was the only one who knew how to operate it, it was like having my own personal (sorta) computer at the time ;-) Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Will someone please talk to this guy before he single-handedly renders >this hobby utterly ridiculous!?!? > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5201588973&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.1 - Release Date: 6/2/2005 From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Jun 2 15:25:56 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:25:56 +0200 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-06-02 15:09:35 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Bj????rn" == Bj????rn Vermo writes: > Bj????rn> You do not get my point: Instead of adding an extra step to > Bj????rn> make PDF files, I think it is better to keep the raw > Bj????rn> scans. Preferably as PNGs, but if the scanner software does > Bj????rn> not provide that, TIFF is workable. > > So? Grab the PDF and export the bitmaps into it as whatever file you > like, what's the big deal? Do we actually *have* the tools? We've got tumble to assemble a PDF file, but do we have proper tools to disassemble one? ...and I really mean exporting the initial TIFF, not something that looks like it. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 2 15:39:32 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: <1117740450.18405.107.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 02, 2005 07:27:30 PM Message-ID: <200506022039.j52KdXZA015870@onyx.spiritone.com> > The players are pretty big - about four times the size of a DVD player > (at least), not to mention quite heavy (for what they are). I doubt > they'd be allowed on as carry-on luggage. > > It's the vibration I'd be bothered about rather than any temperature > issue though. The quality of the solder work on all the players I've > been inside is about the worst I've seen on any electronic equipment, I never even considered temperatures, I'm simply thinking of how non-carryon luggage is treated. You don't want some idiot deciding to see how far into the pile the box can be thrown. As for the size, it doesn't look that much larger than a standard Laserdisc player (though it looks a little thicker than most). Zane From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 2 15:39:58 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:39:58 -0400 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jan-Benedict" == Jan-Benedict Glaw writes: Jan-Benedict> On Thu, 2005-06-02 15:09:35 -0400, Paul Koning Jan-Benedict> wrote: >> So? Grab the PDF and export the bitmaps into it as whatever file >> you like, what's the big deal? Jan-Benedict> Do we actually *have* the tools? We've got tumble to Jan-Benedict> assemble a PDF file, but do we have proper tools to Jan-Benedict> disassemble one? ...and I really mean exporting the Jan-Benedict> initial TIFF, not something that looks like it. Ghostscript reads PDF files every bit as well as PS files, and it's open source... paul From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Jun 2 15:41:22 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: collector in Arizona/Nevada? In-Reply-To: <005f01c567b0$96388a40$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <005f01c567b0$96388a40$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: I'm the only collector in NV (that I know of) - and t'weren't moi.... Cheerz John From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Jun 2 15:49:02 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:49:02 +0200 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-06-02 16:39:58 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Jan-Benedict" == Jan-Benedict Glaw writes: > Jan-Benedict> Do we actually *have* the tools? We've got tumble to > Jan-Benedict> assemble a PDF file, but do we have proper tools to > Jan-Benedict> disassemble one? ...and I really mean exporting the > Jan-Benedict> initial TIFF, not something that looks like it. > > Ghostscript reads PDF files every bit as well as PS files, and it's > open source... You didn't answer my question:-) Consider I prepare a TIFF file that contains (with additional tags) eg. some raw OCRed text, not read-checked. Now I preapre a PDF from this and use gs to get the image back. Is my text still there? Or do I get an image that "looks" almost the original, but doesn't contain my extra-data? MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 2 15:57:28 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: collector in Arizona/Nevada? Message-ID: <200506022057.NAA03101@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "John Lawson" > >I'm the only collector in NV (that I know of) - and t'weren't moi.... > > >Cheerz > >John Hi I was in Nevada, just this weekend! Dwight From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 2 15:58:11 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:58:11 -0500 Subject: 2004 VCF East Pictures... References: Message-ID: <008901c567b5$c9764500$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bill wrote.... >I just noticed somebody from Austin, Texas trying to access my pictures > from last year's VCF East. I had a drive on my server crash a couple of > weeks ago and hadn't gotten around to restoring them. They are available > now: > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/vcfe2004/ Those are wonderfull pictures! I hadn't seen those before.... I must have been really scarce at VCF/East, because I haven't seen a single photo posted anywhere that has me in it. I was there. Honest!!! :) Jay From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 2 15:58:10 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:58:10 -0400 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <17055.29410.364888.511715@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jan-Benedict" == Jan-Benedict Glaw writes: >> Ghostscript reads PDF files every bit as well as PS files, and >> it's open source... Jan-Benedict> You didn't answer my question:-) Consider I prepare a Jan-Benedict> TIFF file that contains (with additional tags) eg. some Jan-Benedict> raw OCRed text, not read-checked. Now I preapre a PDF Jan-Benedict> from this and use gs to get the image back. Is my text Jan-Benedict> still there? Or do I get an image that "looks" almost Jan-Benedict> the original, but doesn't contain my extra-data? Oh. I didn't know TIFF could do that; I certainly would never store text in a TIFF file, no more than I would store images in a DOC file. I have no idea what would happen. Keep in mind that PDF is a close relative of PostScript. PostScript does a nice job of describing bitmap images of any form a commercial printer is ever going to encounter, but it's not a universal meta-everything storage format. PDF also is meant as a final form document encoding. So I would expect images to come through exactly as they were, but random embedded non-image content may well disappear. I suppose you could run the experiment and report back... paul From news at computercollector.com Thu Jun 2 16:06:03 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:06:03 -0400 Subject: 2004 VCF East Pictures... In-Reply-To: <008901c567b5$c9764500$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200506022105.j52L577v053925@dewey.classiccmp.org> Well, just barely...! >>> I was there. Honest!!! :) Jay -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 2004 VCF East Pictures... Bill wrote.... >I just noticed somebody from Austin, Texas trying to access my pictures >from last year's VCF East. I had a drive on my server crash a couple >of weeks ago and hadn't gotten around to restoring them. They are >available > now: > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/vcfe2004/ Those are wonderfull pictures! I hadn't seen those before.... I must have been really scarce at VCF/East, because I haven't seen a single photo posted anywhere that has me in it. I was there. Honest!!! :) Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 2 16:15:33 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 21:15:33 +0000 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 22:49 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Thu, 2005-06-02 16:39:58 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > > >>>>> "Jan-Benedict" == Jan-Benedict Glaw writes: > > Jan-Benedict> Do we actually *have* the tools? We've got tumble to > > Jan-Benedict> assemble a PDF file, but do we have proper tools to > > Jan-Benedict> disassemble one? ...and I really mean exporting the > > Jan-Benedict> initial TIFF, not something that looks like it. > > > > Ghostscript reads PDF files every bit as well as PS files, and it's > > open source... > > You didn't answer my question:-) Consider I prepare a TIFF file that > contains (with additional tags) eg. some raw OCRed text, not > read-checked. Now I preapre a PDF from this and use gs to get the image > back. Is my text still there? Or do I get an image that "looks" almost > the original, but doesn't contain my extra-data? Hmm, 'no' seems to be the answer. Or at least when I use ImageMagick (which seems to call into ghostscript in the case of manipulating PDF files) it's not preserving the TIFF comment field. A did the following: - Created a small TIFF image with Gimp, and saved it with "this is a comment" in the comment field. - Verified that the comment was in place using by running 'identify' on the TIFF file. - Converted the single TIFF file to a PDF using ImageMagick's convert utility (which calls into Ghostscript librairies AFAIK) - Converted the resulting PDF file back to a single TIFF image with convert. - Ran identify again on the resulting TIFF file, and the comment's now changed to: "Image generated by ESP Ghostscript (device=pnmraw)" ... so it looks like any TIFF 'metadata' isn't getting preserved. Looking at the PDF file, I'm not convinced there's any TIFF data in there to be honest. It looks more like the image is re-encoded from the input TIFF to PDFs own way of storing bitmap data - in other words it's not simply a wrapper for a bunch of TIFF images, but merely a wrapper for bitmap data in PDF's own format. That's something of a disappointment; I always thought PDF just encapsulated the input images rather than re-encoding in any way... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 2 16:27:29 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 21:27:29 +0000 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <17055.29410.364888.511715@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.29410.364888.511715@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1117747649.18403.135.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 16:58 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Jan-Benedict" == Jan-Benedict Glaw writes: > > >> Ghostscript reads PDF files every bit as well as PS files, and > >> it's open source... > > Jan-Benedict> You didn't answer my question:-) Consider I prepare a > Jan-Benedict> TIFF file that contains (with additional tags) eg. some > Jan-Benedict> raw OCRed text, not read-checked. Now I preapre a PDF > Jan-Benedict> from this and use gs to get the image back. Is my text > Jan-Benedict> still there? Or do I get an image that "looks" almost > Jan-Benedict> the original, but doesn't contain my extra-data? > > Oh. I didn't know TIFF could do that; I certainly would never store > text in a TIFF file, no more than I would store images in a DOC file. It's a pretty cool format for that kind of thing; I suppose like HTML there are a bare minimum of tags which any decoder should support, and should be able to skip over anything it can't handle and still output an image. It tends to be let down by bad decoder code though - in particular decoders typically either can't handle multi-page images (or do so badly), or they don't support all the common compression schemes out there. cheers Jules From news at computercollector.com Thu Jun 2 16:31:57 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:31:57 -0400 Subject: OT, but funny Message-ID: <200506022130.j52LUu6t054210@dewey.classiccmp.org> I got an HP brochure in the snail mail today, the kind of insert they put into Sunday newspapers... I flipped through it and noticed in the PocketPC section that the sample screen image showed the standard "today" listing... The list said "Owner: Peter Gibbons" and the task item was "Review TPS reports." Gotta love nerd humor. It was a fairly tiny font, so I wonder how many people will notice the joke. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 735 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Jun 2 16:35:22 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:35:22 -0400 Subject: 2004 VCF East Pictures... In-Reply-To: <008901c567b5$c9764500$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: Jay West wrote: > Bill wrote.... > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/vcfe2004/ > > Those are wonderfull pictures! Thanks. > I hadn't seen those before.... I put them up right after the event and posted here. > I must have been really scarce at VCF/East, because > I haven't seen a single photo posted anywhere that > has me in it. I was there. Honest!!! :) I thought I took a picture of you and the trailer, but I don't see it in that batch of photos. I think Sellam took the only picture of me there. I think I have the only pictures of my C4P running at the show. Several people have pictures of it belly-up. Bill From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 2 16:38:56 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:38:56 -0400 Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: <17055.20783.194395.944715@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200506010118.VAA17247@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <3.0.6.32.20050601194404.00a4b730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050602173856.00a396b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:34 PM 6/2/05 -0400, you wrote: >>>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: > > Joe> You mean $napOn! Checkout the ads in NutsNVolts, you can buy a > Joe> whole set of interchangeable bits for about $5. That's a > Joe> fraction of what SnapOn or the TechTool suppliers will charge > Joe> you for a single bit. > >Yes. The difference is that stuff that cheap typically doesn't fit >and doesn't stand up to use. I agree that you need to see the stuff before you buy it. But I bought my cheapo set of bits about 1 1/2 years ago and they've held up fine. I wouldn't expect them to last of an assembly line or some such where they're used 8 hours/day but for occasional use they're ok. As far as fit is concerned, I've found that many expensive tools don't fit either! I had to carry a HP ThinkJet to a half a dozen stores to find a torx screwdriver that fit. I finally found a cheapish brand-x tool at one of the hardware stores that fit. None of the tools from Sears and the like would fit! Joe > >I once bought a cheap drillbit set. What I got was a box full of >pieces of drillrod. They pretty much all had a spiral groove cut in >the sides, though often only just barely. And there usually was at >least a trace of a bevel at the tip. Cutting edge? Dream on... > >Fortunately, the seller honored his money-back guarantee. > >That's not to say I now buy my drill bits from SnapOn. But it does >mean that I avoid Harbor Freight and all their clones for stuff like >this. > > paul > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jun 2 16:42:36 2005 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:42:36 EDT Subject: IBM 8513 monitors Message-ID: <9b.60c3de22.2fd0d74c@aol.com> >In a message dated 6/2/2005 11:17:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, lproven at gmail.com >writes: >This is the original IBM VGA monitor from 1987. >I'm still using one of these alongside my classic Model M keyboards. >I'm keeping it to go with my original (but now heavily tricked-out) >PS/2 Model 80-A21 (16MB RAM! 1.3GB of SCSI disk! CD! NIC! Windows NT >Server 3.51 SP5! (All right, it does also have PC DOS 7 and OS/2 Warp >Server 4, but I can't get Warp to talk to the NIC, so that's just a >curiosity, whereas NT runs like a dream on it. Rock solid, just >sluggish.) I'm surprised you cannot get a NIC to work in OS/2. If it's a 3com or Cabletron, it should be dead easy, as long as you've got the NDIS drivers. Sometimes you have to monkey around with ibmlan.ini I think. From allain at panix.com Thu Jun 2 16:42:21 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:42:21 -0400 Subject: collector in Arizona/Nevada? References: <005f01c567b0$96388a40$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <01b901c567bc$007e0aa0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> What about that guy with the SMECMA? Ed Sharpe I believe. John A. (g) From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 2 16:46:57 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:46:57 -0400 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> <1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <17055.32337.168033.811169@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> Looking at the PDF file, I'm not convinced there's any TIFF Jules> data in there to be honest. It looks more like the image is Jules> re-encoded from the input TIFF to PDFs own way of storing Jules> bitmap data - in other words it's not simply a wrapper for a Jules> bunch of TIFF images, but merely a wrapper for bitmap data in Jules> PDF's own format. That's something of a disappointment; I Jules> always thought PDF just encapsulated the input images rather Jules> than re-encoding in any way... Makes sense. The purpose of PDF is to distribute final form documents, for viewing and for printing, including commercial printing. So it's like PostScript, but more rigorously defined, and compressed for space efficiency. A PostScript file produced from an image has the pixels, so they can be printed (in the original colorspace, unless your document manipulation program converted it, as some do or can be told to). Given the purpose of these file formats, there's no reason for it to preserve the TIFF metadata, nor the TIFF format, since the intent is to accurately put pixels on screen or paper. The encoding will be lossless, though (at least normally -- I think you can tell Distiller to use JPG style compression but sensible people know better than that). So when you export the image from the PDF, you get the original pixels back. For purposes of scanned document archives, that is what you need, which is why PDF is fine there. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 2 16:48:54 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:48:54 -0400 Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] References: <200506010118.VAA17247@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <3.0.6.32.20050601194404.00a4b730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050602173856.00a396b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <17055.32454.574396.459376@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: Joe> .... As far as fit is concerned, I've found that many Joe> expensive tools don't fit either! I had to carry a HP ThinkJet Joe> to a half a dozen stores to find a torx screwdriver that fit. I Joe> finally found a cheapish brand-x tool at one of the hardware Joe> stores that fit. None of the tools from Sears and the like would Joe> fit! Sounds like a non-standard pseudo-Torx, perhaps a Japanese imitation? paul From news at computercollector.com Thu Jun 2 16:52:57 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:52:57 -0400 Subject: collector in Arizona/Nevada? In-Reply-To: <01b901c567bc$007e0aa0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200506022151.j52LpqvW054915@dewey.classiccmp.org> Yup, he's www.smecc.org / email is couryhouse at aol.com ... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Allain Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 5:42 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: collector in Arizona/Nevada? What about that guy with the SMECMA? Ed Sharpe I believe. John A. (g) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 16:59:21 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:59:21 -0500 Subject: Anyone here in lower Wisconsin? Message-ID: I've just started back to work for the University of Wisconsin, putting me in Madison for the summer before I set out in October for _another_ year at the Pole. In the meantime, I was curious how many listmembers were in Wisconsin. ISTR someone here is up in Appleton, but I can't remember who that is. Not sure if anyone else is in the area or not, so I thought I'd just give a shout. I hauled along my 1802 kits (among other junque) in anticipation of getting things ready for VCF-Midwest next month. One fun thing I picked up right before I left town was a short stack of Elf frontpanels, custom milled for me out of 3/16" ABS... a friend of the families owns a business that happens to have a CNC machine, and they happen to mill plastic stock. I approached him for some scrap stock, and he gets interested enough to machine out a dozen switch holes _with_ locator notches (the holes look kinda like a silhouette of the Commodore chicken-head logo, but that's fine - the notches work *great* at keeping the switches from turning in the holes). I look forward to mounting one on my Spare Time Gizmos Elf 2000. Now I just need to sit down and make a final list of parts I _don't_ have on hand and finish assembly. So if anyone is within striking distance of Madison, give me a shout offline and maybe we can get together while I'm in the area. -ethan From allain at panix.com Thu Jun 2 17:15:04 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:15:04 -0400 Subject: 2004 VCF East Pictures... References: Message-ID: <026501c567c0$9cf65be0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >> I must have been really scarce at VCF/East, because >> I haven't seen a single photo posted anywhere that >> has me in it. (Jay) How about posting a picture of yourself from somewhere else so we'll know how to recognize you in the future. Until then you'll be (FU)BAR I guess. > I think Sellam took the only picture of me there. (Bill) Look here: http://www.panix.com/~allain/VCFe2/ for this one: http://www.panix.com/~allain/VCFe2/p7170020s.jpg John A. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Jun 2 17:23:49 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:23:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: <200506022039.j52KdXZA015870@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <1117740450.18405.107.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 02, 2005 07:27:30 PM <200506022039.j52KdXZA015870@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1654.82.152.112.73.1117751029.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > luggage is treated. You don't want some idiot deciding to see how far > into > the pile the box can be thrown. Which is what they did to a TRS80 Model 3 my missus brought back from the US for me....I think they juggled with it first before throwing it, given the state it was in when I got it. > As for the size, it doesn't look that much larger than a standard > Laserdisc > player (though it looks a little thicker than most). The thickness is down to the SCSI layer underneath the main player. They're very sensitive to heat as well, even my good working one decided to throw a hissy fit at the last exhibition I did 2 weeks ago which meant I had to manually spin the platter at exactly the right time to get it to spin up since the electronics couldn't do that themselves :o\ Of course, these days there's a fairly good web version but I can't find the email I've got that has the URL......typical.... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 2 17:20:46 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:20:46 +0000 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <17055.32337.168033.811169@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> <1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain> <17055.32337.168033.811169@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1117750846.18403.155.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 17:46 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: > > Jules> Looking at the PDF file, I'm not convinced there's any TIFF > Jules> data in there to be honest. It looks more like the image is > Jules> re-encoded from the input TIFF to PDFs own way of storing > Jules> bitmap data - in other words it's not simply a wrapper for a > Jules> bunch of TIFF images, but merely a wrapper for bitmap data in > Jules> PDF's own format. That's something of a disappointment; I > Jules> always thought PDF just encapsulated the input images rather > Jules> than re-encoding in any way... > > Makes sense. > > The purpose of PDF is to distribute final form documents, for viewing > and for printing, including commercial printing. Yep - I've just only heard PDF files (in the context of preserving image scans) described as being a wrapper - which tends to imply that they preserve the original content, when in fact they're a complete storage format in their own right. > The encoding will be lossless, though (at least normally -- I think > you can tell Distiller to use JPG style compression but sensible > people know better than that). Most likely... even TIFF images support lossy JPEG compression these days, but I've only ever come across one or two files using it. > For purposes of scanned document archives, that is what you need, > which is why PDF is fine there. I don't know though, sometimes it's nice to have a record of what produced the images making up a collection of scans, which is the sort of thing often embedded automatically by anything creating a TIFF file (of course it's useful to know the process applied too in terms of any colour correction etc.). I suppose it's akin to a lot of programs that hangle JPEG images from digital cameras throwing any EXIF data away - it's annoying losing the info describing when / how an image was created. Maybe there's an option to turn image recoding off when creating a PDF? If it can supported embedded movies and the like (I doubt it encodes those into its own internal format) then I'm surprised it can't embed image content without manipulating it. cheers Jules From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Jun 2 17:32:14 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:32:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: <1654.82.152.112.73.1117751029.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <1117740450.18405.107.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 02, 2005 07:27:30 PM <200506022039.j52KdXZA015870@onyx.spiritone.com> <1654.82.152.112.73.1117751029.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1666.82.152.112.73.1117751534.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Replying to meself here but... > Of course, these days there's a fairly good web version but I can't find > the email I've got that has the URL......typical.... http://www.domesday1986.com/ -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 2 17:41:23 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <200506021735.j52HZ3YG020595@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200506021735.j52HZ3YG020595@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050602154018.F77800@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Barry Watzman wrote: > Suppose you have a CompuPro memory card and no manual. The card is useless. > . . . > (Note that if it was EITHER made from it's source document (e.g. Word or > whatever) more likely to be Wordstar From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 2 17:53:21 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:53:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Nascom 2 keyboard connector" (Jun 2, 13:16) References: <1117718181.18403.13.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10506022353.ZM14674@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 2 2005, 13:16, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Does anyone have the pinouts of the Nascom 2 keyboard connector handy? > > I'm wondering if there are any duplicated ground lines such that I can > get away with running a cable via DA15 connectors (the connectors on the > '2 and keyboard PCBs are 16 pin headers) Mine's not handy, but it does in fact have a DA15 plug on the keyboard and a DA15 socket on the Nascom chassis. So although I can't tell you which line to drop, it would seem it is possible to do so. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 2 17:59:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2004 VCF East Pictures... In-Reply-To: <008901c567b5$c9764500$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Jay West wrote: > Bill wrote.... > >I just noticed somebody from Austin, Texas trying to access my pictures > > from last year's VCF East. I had a drive on my server crash a couple of > > weeks ago and hadn't gotten around to restoring them. They are available > > now: > > > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/vcfe2004/ > > Those are wonderfull pictures! I hadn't seen those before.... I must have > been really scarce at VCF/East, because I haven't seen a single photo posted > anywhere that has me in it. I was there. Honest!!! :) You were really scarce. I think I saw you once when you came to introduec yourself and then you disappeared :( I can't remember if you came along with use for dinner because I was dead tired by then. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 2 18:01:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT, but funny In-Reply-To: <200506022130.j52LUu6t054210@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > I got an HP brochure in the snail mail today, the kind of insert they put > into Sunday newspapers... I flipped through it and noticed in the PocketPC > section that the sample screen image showed the standard "today" listing... > The list said "Owner: Peter Gibbons" and the task item was "Review TPS > reports." > > Gotta love nerd humor. It was a fairly tiny font, so I wonder how many > people will notice the joke. I don't get it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 2 18:15:03 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:15:03 -0400 Subject: OT, but funny References: Message-ID: <002001c567c8$e833dbc0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:01 PM Subject: Re: OT, but funny > On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > > > I got an HP brochure in the snail mail today, the kind of insert they put > > into Sunday newspapers... I flipped through it and noticed in the PocketPC > > section that the sample screen image showed the standard "today" listing... > > The list said "Owner: Peter Gibbons" and the task item was "Review TPS > > reports." > > > > Gotta love nerd humor. It was a fairly tiny font, so I wonder how many > > people will notice the joke. > > I don't get it. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?id=1800023786&d=hv&cf=info From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Jun 2 18:09:14 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 18:09:14 -0500 Subject: Anyone here in lower Wisconsin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050602180810.0cf2a740@localhost> Here I am in Milwaukee metro area. (Menomonee Falls). Heard of the Wisconsin Computer Society? Al's home turf. At 04:59 PM 6/2/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I've just started back to work for the University of Wisconsin, >putting me in Madison for the summer before I set out in October for >_another_ year at the Pole. In the meantime, I was curious how many >listmembers were in Wisconsin. ISTR someone here is up in Appleton, >but I can't remember who that is. Not sure if anyone else is in the >area or not, so I thought I'd just give a shout. > >I hauled along my 1802 kits (among other junque) in anticipation of >getting things ready for VCF-Midwest next month. One fun thing I >picked up right before I left town was a short stack of Elf >frontpanels, custom milled for me out of 3/16" ABS... a friend of the >families owns a business that happens to have a CNC machine, and they >happen to mill plastic stock. I approached him for some scrap stock, >and he gets interested enough to machine out a dozen switch holes >_with_ locator notches (the holes look kinda like a silhouette of the >Commodore chicken-head logo, but that's fine - the notches work >*great* at keeping the switches from turning in the holes). I look >forward to mounting one on my Spare Time Gizmos Elf 2000. Now I just >need to sit down and make a final list of parts I _don't_ have on hand >and finish assembly. > >So if anyone is within striking distance of Madison, give me a shout >offline and maybe we can get together while I'm in the area. > >-ethan [War]It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it. -- Robert Edward Lee, 1807 - 1870 --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From news at computercollector.com Thu Jun 2 18:18:18 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:18:18 -0400 Subject: OT, but funny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200506022318.j52NIBZ9056203@dewey.classiccmp.org> HP used references from the movie "Office Space". -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:02 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: OT, but funny On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > I got an HP brochure in the snail mail today, the kind of insert they > put into Sunday newspapers... I flipped through it and noticed in the > PocketPC section that the sample screen image showed the standard "today" listing... > The list said "Owner: Peter Gibbons" and the task item was "Review TPS > reports." > > Gotta love nerd humor. It was a fairly tiny font, so I wonder how > many people will notice the joke. I don't get it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 2 16:59:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:59:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools In-Reply-To: <429E57AB.6040809@internet1.net> from "C Fernandez" at Jun 1, 5 08:49:47 pm Message-ID: > > Half the time, cheap tools don't work well when they're new, either. Exactly. Several times I've tried to repair something for somebody using their toolkit and have stopped halfway through to go back and get my tools. Not becuase they don't have the right tool, but becasue their tools are such poor quality that I will do damage to the device I am repairing if I try to use them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 2 17:05:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:05:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9133/9134/9135 service manual In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050601223727.00a1e320@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 1, 5 10:37:27 pm Message-ID: > > At 12:53 AM 6/2/05 +0100, Tony wrote: > >> > >> David Bryan just scanned and sent me a copy of "HP's 5 1/4-Inch > >> Winchester Disc Drive Service Documentation" (HP > >> 09134-90032, August 1983) for the old style HP 9133/9134 and 9135 disk > >> drives. Besides the always useful service information, it includes > > > >For suitable values of 'useful' ;-). > > All service manuals are useful, some are just more useful than others! > (And some are only useful for TP.) :-). But you can't use a pdf file as TP, and you might as well not waste time and tomer printing it out if you're only going to use the paper for that... The _worst_ service manual ever has to be the one for the Torch XXX. It is a total waste of paper. No schematics, an _incorrect_ block diagram (IIRC it shows the main memory as being shared between the 68K side and the 'service processor' (a 6303 thingy), when in fact it's the video RAM that's shared [1]. Oh, and a useless 'glossary' with definitions like : IC : Integrated circuit. One of those black things on legs on a circuit board ICs : More than one IC I am _not_ joking Needless to say I produced my own set of schematics for this machine... [1] The boot sequence is actually quite clever. There is a single 8 bit wide EPROM, whuch contains the service processor code and the 68K vectors and bootstrap. At power-on, the service processor holds the 68K in the reset state and copies the vectors and bootstrap into the video RAM. The 68K is then started, with the video RAM at the bottom of its memory space, so it reads the vectors and starts as normal. It then recofigures its memory map to put the video RAM somewhere out of the way and reads the disk boot blovk, etc, into main RAM. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 2 17:07:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:07:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <20050601223918.4db474fa.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jun 1, 5 10:39:18 pm Message-ID: > > But PCB tracks can be easily un-cut -- just solder a piece of wire > > over the break. Wire-wrap wire (stripped, of course) is ideal for > > this. > > > > Yikes! > > I am the guy who in the past has had to figure out what the HECK is > wrong with a board, where somebody 'just tacked a piece of wire along > the track.' Such forms of modification/repair often _disguise_ a wiring I have _never_ had a problem doing this (read : I've never had such a repair fail, even after years). Now a blob of solder across a break will _not_ hold, you must put the wire there. I typically put at least 1/2" of wire on each side of the break and solder it down. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 2 17:26:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:26:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <1117710823.18244.30.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 2, 5 11:13:43 am Message-ID: > > I would argue that history is lost if _any_ change is made, and > > certainly if any part is replaced. > > Much like modifying PCBs... :-) Absolutley. I do NOT receomend modifying PCBs for no good reason. I do do it, though, when there are significant benefits that make the machine more useable. In fact I am going to recomend you do a mod to the mainboard in your 5155 (all of them). I am going to assuem they;'ve got 256K RAM, almost all have.: Remove the motherboard from the case (this is the worst bit of the job, you have to take out the drives first to get to the screw in one of the brackets). Remove the 4164 64K*1 DRAMs from banks 0 and 1 of the motherboard and replace them by 41256 256K*1 DRAMs. Fit a 74F158 (or 74S158) multiplexer chip in the empty socket towards the front right of the board, pointing the same way as the TTL chips round it. Solder a jumper wire between pads E1 and E2 at the RHS of the board, about half way down. You now have a 640K machine. This mod is sort-of official in that IBM did sell XTs with 640K on the mainboard, and the revised schematic is printed in later TechRefs. I don't think any 5155s were shipped like that, though. However, I recomend doing the mod because very little software will run in 256K (much more will run in 640K), memory expansion cards are hard to find, and slots are tight on the 5155 anyway (with the CGA card and FDC fitted, you only have one full-length slot left, the others can be very short indeed). > > Remember this is a machine that's going to be used by children at events > (well, assuming the primary one is out of action); it's going to have a What's that go to do with the choice of internal screws... > very different life to static exhibits or operational machines that > aren't left totally open for people to play with. > > > Also, please remember that this machine is owned by a museum. I would > > expect museums to have higher standards for preserving originality than > > most enthusiasts. Pity this doesn't seem to be the case. > > We have several 5155s, all in original state. Unifying the screws on one Well, what will you do when a monitor fails on one of the others? Put the right screws back, or bodge it? If the former, you will have to get the Bristol Spline tool. So why not get it now? In fact you darn well ought to have a set anyway. > If at some stage they *do* become rare then fitting original screws is > possible if needs be as we have reference machines (and very likely the Provided those have not been changed! > relevant technical info on the shelf) Well, it's not in the Guide to Operations (which does cover pulling the case, it does cover inserting expansion cards and the like). It's not in the TechRef. It may be in the HMS (Hardware Maintenance and Service) manual, I don't have that one, but the HMS manual for the PC/AT does _not_ describe what scews go where. It assumes you put back the screws you take out. DO you have the HMS manual? One final point (I hope). I am, as I am sure you know, an active member of HPCC. A few years back, we looked at the HP12C calculator, which was the machine that HP had made for the longest time (I think we looked at it on the 21st aniversary or something). We got as many of the machines together as we coold, and looked at the changes that were made over the production run. Of course there were many. Early machines had a separate logic module containing the display and ICs that fitted into the case and connected to the keyboard PCB via a zebrastrip. Later machines had it all on one board. but still with 2 ICs (the NUT CPU and the R2D2 ROM/RAM/Display Driver). Then there was a single IC version. And so on. Now one, and only one, of the machines we looked had had TX6 Torx screws holding the case together rather than the Pozidriv used in all other machines. I am pretty sure that was original, and we noted it as a separate variant. We do _NOT_ want a variant of the 5155 IBM Portable PC with Pozidriv and not Bristol Spline screws in the monitor suddently springing into existance to confuse averyone.... Incidentally, have you figured out what's wrong with this machine yet? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 2 17:54:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:54:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: <17055.20783.194395.944715@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Jun 2, 5 02:34:23 pm Message-ID: > > >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: > > Joe> You mean $napOn! Checkout the ads in NutsNVolts, you can buy a > Joe> whole set of interchangeable bits for about $5. That's a > Joe> fraction of what SnapOn or the TechTool suppliers will charge > Joe> you for a single bit. > > Yes. The difference is that stuff that cheap typically doesn't fit > and doesn't stand up to use. The two main reasons that I don't buy cheap tools... > > I once bought a cheap drillbit set. What I got was a box full of > pieces of drillrod. They pretty much all had a spiral groove cut in > the sides, though often only just barely. And there usually was at > least a trace of a bevel at the tip. Cutting edge? Dream on... One major problem I've found with cheap twist drills is that the 'point' is not quite central. This means they wobble slightly as they drill and make an oversize hole. This won't matter for the average home electric drill (which has more play in the bearings anyway), it certainly matters if you use them on a machine tool. I once wasted a couple of hours because after making a part (a roller for an HP9100 card reader), I drilled the central hole with what I thought was a 1/8" drill and then found it was a very loose fit on the 1/8" (measured) motor spindle. Too loose to grip on the knurled part. I had to make the roller again and go and buy a good-quality 1/8" bit. No problem then. I can't remmeber how much that tqist drill cost me, but it was a lot less than 2 hours of my time at any sane rate. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 2 18:02:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:02:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050602173856.00a396b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 2, 5 05:38:56 pm Message-ID: > I agree that you need to see the stuff before you buy it. But I bought > my cheapo set of bits about 1 1/2 years ago and they've held up fine. I You have been very lucky. I am not prepared to take that risk. > wouldn't expect them to last of an assembly line or some such where they're > used 8 hours/day but for occasional use they're ok. As far as fit is > concerned, I've found that many expensive tools don't fit either! I had to > carry a HP ThinkJet to a half a dozen stores to find a torx screwdriver > that fit. I finally found a cheapish brand-x tool at one of the hardware > stores that fit. None of the tools from Sears and the like would fit! Odd. I've taken plenty of Thinkjets (and 9114 drives, which use the same screws) apart and had no problem getting tools that fit. IIRC, though, HP used some odd-size screws in these machines, with TX9 heads. Some manufactuers make their Torx drives on the small side, so you may have found a TX10 from said manufactuer fitted, but 'real' TX10 drivers don't. A good TX9 driver will work, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 2 17:36:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:36:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <1117718181.18403.13.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 2, 5 01:16:21 pm Message-ID: > > > Does anyone have the pinouts of the Nascom 2 keyboard connector handy? Yes. I have the Nascom 2 manual in front of me. From waht I can see, the keybaord came as an assembled unit, and there's no schematic in the manual for that. But the pinouts of the connector are there, here you are : PL3 (Keyboard) 1 D0 (this is an input to a tri-state buffer, then onto the Z80 data bus) 2 +5V 3 D1 4 NMISw/ 5 D2 6 Q5 (this is an output from a latch chip) 7 D3 8 Q2 9 D4 10 ResetSw/ 11 D5 12 Q0 13 D6 14 Q1 15 D7 16 Gnd There is no description of the keyboard interface in the manual, and I don't feel like battling through the monitor source lising to work out how it works. Maybe the Q lines are decoded and used to scan the key matrix in software or something. > > I'm wondering if there are any duplicated ground lines such that I can Alas not. You could use a 24 pin Blue Ribbon connector, or a DB25, or... For refernece, the other connector pinouts are : PL2 (Serial)_ 1 Drive (This is a tranistor buffer output to drive a cassette-control relay) 2 +5V 3 RS232 In 4 Ext Tx Clk 5 Ext Rx Clk 6 RS232 Out 7 -12V 8 Spare 9 20mA Loop In 10 +12V 11 Gnd 12 20mA Loop Out 13 Cass Out Hi 14 Cass Out Lo 15 Gnd 16 Cass In (Whatever you do, don't connect the keyboard to PL2. You will do damge due to the 12V lines here. Also, there are various links you must set to select baud rate, selkect between cassette and RS232 operation, etc) PL4 (User port). This is basically the 'port' side of a Z80-PIO 1 B5 2 B4 3 B6 4 B3 5 B7 6 B2 7 ARdy 8 B1 9 BStb/ 10 B0 11 AStb/ 12 BRdy 13 A0 14 N/C 15 A1 16 Gnd 17 A2 18 Gnd 19 A3 20 +5V 21 A4 22 +5V 23 A5 24 A7 35 A6 26 N/C Hope that helps -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 2 17:40:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:40:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <1117725265.18405.34.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 2, 5 03:14:25 pm Message-ID: > I'll hopefully chuck some pics up in a few days; there's not a lot left > to do construction-wise. Then I get the joy of fixing the machine if > needs be... There's a procedure given in the manual, where you add chips a few at a time, power up, and test signals, etc. A word of warning. Firstlu, there's at least one mistake in that procedure (one test require a gate from a chip you've not fitted yet!). Secondly, one of the counters (IIRC) in the video chain is used in a marginal way. IIRC NatSemi chips work there, TI don't (or vice versa). The same chip is used somewhere else on the board, I had no end of fun tracking down a video problem when I accidentally swapped them round. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 2 17:42:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:42:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <1117728349.18405.48.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 2, 5 04:05:49 pm Message-ID: > It's either that (and use a DA15) or use a DB25 (hence thicker cable) > with lots of unused wires... hmmm... Why can't you use a DB26 with just 16 pins wired (and 16 way cable)? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 2 17:49:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:49:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <200506021735.j52HZ3YG020595@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> from "Barry Watzman" at Jun 2, 5 01:35:05 pm Message-ID: > > Some of the attitudes here about PDF impress me as about the most ludditical > (is there such a word?) as I've seen in a long time. I dislike the PDF format, probably always will. For a long time I couldn't read it at all, in fact none of my machines can now. My parents have an old Mac that than display most PDF files (if I can get them onto the machine, which is non-trivial), or I look in the local internet cafe, which is not convenient either > > Suppose you have a CompuPro memory card and no manual. The card is useless. > I give you the PDF file of the manual. You can look at the manual > on-screen, or you can print it and you HAVE the hard copy manual. In color, Well, it takes me 5 minutes per page to print it (most of the time is transfering the bitmap to the printer over localtalk). For any reasonable manual, it'll probably take at least a day to print it. And in that time I could probably have worked out how to use a memory card. It can't be that complicated. I have the S100 pinout to hand. I have pinouts of all common ICs to hand. I could trace out enough of the schematic in a day to know how to set the addressing jumpers, etc. > where the original was in color, and with quality that may be Assuming you have a colour printer... > indistinguishable from (or in some cases actually better than) the original > manual when it was new. > > Is that a benefit? Is it better than no manual at all? Is it, essentially, > as good as being able to call CompuPro (which no longer exists) and order a > new manual, FOR FREE, and have it delivered INSTANTLY? It's not free (download time, paper, tone). It's certainly not instant. > > So what if it's not "searchable". Get a clue: THE ORIGINAL PAPER MANUAL > WAS NOT "SEARCHABLE". But if you or anyone else wants it to be searchable I find it a lot quicker to flip through a paper manual and spot the schematics, listings, link-setting tables, etc than to look at anything on-screen. It takes a good few seconds for a page to display on any computer that I've ever used. I can flip through a manual a lot quicker than that. > The people who don't like PDFs either have not used Acrobat extensively or > don't understand the real nature of the prouduct. Acrobat allows you to > create an electronic document that can have as many features (or as few) as > the creator wants: Most of which are not directly applicable to a container of scanned imaged. Or at least can't be automatically created for such a set of scanned images. > And it and the documents it creates are multi-platform: PC, Apple, Linux, > Sun, IBM mainframe .... virtually every computer platform in existence. Just not any of the 200-or-so machines that I own. Period. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 2 18:24:59 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:24:59 +0000 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <10506022353.ZM14674@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1117718181.18403.13.camel@weka.localdomain> <10506022353.ZM14674@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1117754699.18403.172.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 23:53 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jun 2 2005, 13:16, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > Does anyone have the pinouts of the Nascom 2 keyboard connector > handy? > > > > I'm wondering if there are any duplicated ground lines such that I > can > > get away with running a cable via DA15 connectors (the connectors on > the > > '2 and keyboard PCBs are 16 pin headers) > > Mine's not handy, but it does in fact have a DA15 plug on the keyboard > and a DA15 socket on the Nascom chassis. So although I can't tell you > which line to drop, it would seem it is possible to do so. Is it an unshielded cable? If it's shielded maybe they're using the shield as a 16th line... Maybe I'll trace out the keyboard schematic (or at least as much as I need) - it's just occurred to me that maybe the keyboard was shipped as a completed unit (with the handful of ICs in place) which is why schematics for it seem to be lacking... cheers! Jules From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 2 18:19:36 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:19:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT, but funny In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "Re: OT, but funny" (Jun 2, 16:01) References: Message-ID: <10506030019.ZM14773@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 2 2005, 16:01, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > > The list said "Owner: Peter Gibbons" and the task item was "Review TPS > > reports." > > > > Gotta love nerd humor. It was a fairly tiny font, so I wonder how many > > people will notice the joke. > > I don't get it. >From the film "Office Space". See http://www.answers.com/topic/office-space -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Jun 2 18:35:44 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:35:44 -0400 Subject: OT, but funny In-Reply-To: References: <200506022130.j52LUu6t054210@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050602192733.04d88a80@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > > > I got an HP brochure in the snail mail today, the kind of insert they put > > into Sunday newspapers... I flipped through it and noticed in the PocketPC > > section that the sample screen image showed the standard "today" listing... > > The list said "Owner: Peter Gibbons" and the task item was "Review TPS > > reports." > > > > Gotta love nerd humor. It was a fairly tiny font, so I wonder how many > > people will notice the joke. > >I don't get it. You got Google, don't you? Don't tell me that I have to give you the google link, eh? Shhheeeeeeeshhhh!!! ;-) http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Peter+Gibbons OK, there's a race car driver named Peter Gibbons, there's a character off of the movie "Office Space" (which I never saw, movie trailers looked *mucho lame* to me), and a teacher in the Department of Computer Sciences at the Univerisity of Auckland in New Zealand. I'm guessing it's the 3rd guy, as he's almost marginally ontopic. Tho how HP got ahold of his iPaq is anyone's guess! ;-) [[ Note to all: I didn't get it either; still don't; and not that worried if I ever do... I just thought this would be a good opportunity to pick on Sellam WRT him picking on others asking questions before googling... ;-) ]] Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Jun 2 18:54:03 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:54:03 -0400 Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050602173856.00a396b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050602194650.01cb18c0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: >Odd. I've taken plenty of Thinkjets (and 9114 drives, which use the same >screws) apart and had no problem getting tools that fit. IIRC, though, HP >used some odd-size screws in these machines, with TX9 heads. Some >manufactuers make their Torx drives on the small side, so you may have >found a TX10 from said manufactuer fitted, but 'real' TX10 drivers don't. >A good TX9 driver will work, though. That was my thought, too. I've seen good sets that have TX6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 15 and up, and I think there's such a thing as a TX12, tho I've never seen one in captivity. ;-) I've seen modern hard drives use both TX6 and 8. Also, if one has a very good set of both SAE and Metric (hex|Allen) keys, you can often find a key that will fit the center of TX10 & 15 screws well enough to install/remove them in a pinch; I don't recommend making a habit of it (read: don't think you're covered toolwise without a good Torx set nowadays) but if you have no other choice, it can be made to work. It's like I always say: If it's stupid but works, it ain't stupid. ;-) Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 2 18:57:42 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:57:42 -0500 Subject: 2004 VCF East Pictures... References: Message-ID: <002801c567ce$ddb381e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote.... > You were really scarce. I think I saw you once when you came to introduec > yourself and then you disappeared :( I can't remember if you came along > with use for dinner because I was dead tired by then. Hey I was there, you must have just been tired! I talked to pretty much everyone - just didn't seem to appear in any pictures. I spent most of my time with Dan Cohoe and Bob Shannon though. Sellam, you and I talked a bunch out there, and yes I was at dinner. Sat next to Dan and his wife... I think Mr. Donzelli was one seat away. I was at the end of the U-shaped table closest to the north. As I recall, I spent most of my time hurridly looking for someone to take the other two empty HP racks I had for the two people who didn't take them. Well, I also spent some time getting tires replaced on a certain trailer ;) But, if anyone does have any pictures of VCF/East in boston that have me in them, I'd love a copy! Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 2 18:58:45 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:58:45 -0500 Subject: 2004 VCF East Pictures... References: <026501c567c0$9cf65be0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <003b01c567cf$03a0d3d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> John wrote... > How about posting a picture of yourself from somewhere > else so we'll know how to recognize you in the future. > Until then you'll be (FU)BAR I guess. No way... people would start asking me list maintenance questions *GRIN* J/K J From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 2 15:03:32 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:03:32 +0000 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: <20050601223918.4db474fa.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jun 1, 5 10:39:18 pm Message-ID: <20050603000133.KRYH16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > > But PCB tracks can be easily un-cut -- just solder a piece of wire > > > over the break. Wire-wrap wire (stripped, of course) is ideal for > > > this. > > > > > > > Yikes! > > > > I am the guy who in the past has had to figure out what the HECK is > > wrong with a board, where somebody 'just tacked a piece of wire along > > the track.' Such forms of modification/repair often _disguise_ a wiring > > I have _never_ had a problem doing this (read : I've never had such a > repair fail, even after years). Now a blob of solder across a break > will _not_ hold, you must put the wire there. > > I typically put at least 1/2" of wire on each side of the break and > solder it down. > > -tony Yikes? I do this for TV/Projector, PC boards all the times on tracks that comes off for any reason, bridge cracked PCB etc. I scrape off mask and polish it with eraser rod and lay sized and cut to length if needed pre-shaped to follow the bends in the trace and solder. This repair method is stronger. Cheers, Wizard From news at computercollector.com Thu Jun 2 19:06:19 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:06:19 -0400 Subject: 2004 VCF East Pictures... In-Reply-To: <002801c567ce$ddb381e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200506030006.j530618R058218@dewey.classiccmp.org> Here you go: http://www.users.vance.net/grayarea/marx/jw1237jay.html -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 2004 VCF East Pictures... Sellam wrote.... > You were really scarce. I think I saw you once when you came to > introduec yourself and then you disappeared :( I can't remember if > you came along with use for dinner because I was dead tired by then. Hey I was there, you must have just been tired! I talked to pretty much everyone - just didn't seem to appear in any pictures. I spent most of my time with Dan Cohoe and Bob Shannon though. Sellam, you and I talked a bunch out there, and yes I was at dinner. Sat next to Dan and his wife... I think Mr. Donzelli was one seat away. I was at the end of the U-shaped table closest to the north. As I recall, I spent most of my time hurridly looking for someone to take the other two empty HP racks I had for the two people who didn't take them. Well, I also spent some time getting tires replaced on a certain trailer ;) But, if anyone does have any pictures of VCF/East in boston that have me in them, I'd love a copy! Jay From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Jun 2 19:07:48 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:07:48 -0500 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation References: Message-ID: <006601c567d0$4a552640$4992d6d1@randy> From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 5:49 PM >> Some of the attitudes here about PDF impress me as about the most >> ludditical >> (is there such a word?) as I've seen in a long time. > > I dislike the PDF format, probably always will. For a long time I > couldn't read it at all, in fact none of my machines can now. My parents > have an old Mac that than display most PDF files (if I can get them onto > the machine, which is non-trivial), or I look in the local internet cafe, > which is not convenient either > >> >> Suppose you have a CompuPro memory card and no manual. The card is >> useless. >> I give you the PDF file of the manual. You can look at the manual >> on-screen, or you can print it and you HAVE the hard copy manual. In >> color, > > Well, it takes me 5 minutes per page to print it (most of the time is > transfering the bitmap to the printer over localtalk). For any reasonable > manual, it'll probably take at least a day to print it. > > And in that time I could probably have worked out how to use a memory > card. It can't be that complicated. I have the S100 pinout to hand. I > have pinouts of all common ICs to hand. I could trace out enough of the > schematic in a day to know how to set the addressing jumpers, etc. > > -tony I have plenty of S100 memory boards that would take more than a day to figure out without a manual. Many boards use programmable logic devices where you can't tell what they do by looking at them. I have several MacroTech RAM cards that would take days to figure out but only take minutes with a manual (they have around 30 jumpers spread around the boards). The point to a PDF document is that for almost everyone with a computer on this planet they can view the document on the screen. PDF's being posted by people like myself is not meant to please everyone, I am happy knowing I help some. We should make a list of what users are unable to view PDF's, starting with Tony how many others have no practical method of viewing a PDF or a friend with a compatible system? Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 2 19:08:44 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:08:44 -0500 Subject: HP2000 References: <005301c567b0$522971c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <006601c567d0$6802a730$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I decided to dig in a likely section of the basement, and found a complete manual for FCOPY/2000. Woohoo! I think I have the software for FCOPY as well, but since it's on a disk image there's no way to tell if it is a released version or a hacked up one. I will dump that to a mag tape in the appropriate format, so that the loading/install instructions in the Fcopy manual can be followed correctly. Tape image will be available to all of course. I'd love to find a manual for EDIT/2000 though! I also found an original HP printed manual for TIDE, apparently this was an HP contributed library text editor. It says it was in the 2000C contributed library, but likely was available on the other TSB variants. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 2 19:18:30 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:18:30 -0500 Subject: 2004 VCF East Pictures... References: <200506030006.j530618R058218@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <007b01c567d1$c5564bc0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Evan wrote... > Here you go: http://www.users.vance.net/grayarea/marx/jw1237jay.html What a riot! Yes, direct all your list maintenance/problem inquiries to the guy in that picture at the next VCF *cough* J From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 2 19:21:15 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:21:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault Message-ID: <200506030021.RAA03164@clulw009.amd.com> >From: jpero at sympatico.ca >> > > But PCB tracks can be easily un-cut -- just solder a piece of wire >> > > over the break. Wire-wrap wire (stripped, of course) is ideal for >> > > this. >> > > >> > >> > Yikes! >> > >> > I am the guy who in the past has had to figure out what the HECK is >> > wrong with a board, where somebody 'just tacked a piece of wire along >> > the track.' Such forms of modification/repair often _disguise_ a wiring >> >> I have _never_ had a problem doing this (read : I've never had such a >> repair fail, even after years). Now a blob of solder across a break >> will _not_ hold, you must put the wire there. >> >> I typically put at least 1/2" of wire on each side of the break and >> solder it down. >> >> -tony > >Yikes? I do this for TV/Projector, PC boards all the times on >tracks that comes off for any reason, bridge cracked PCB etc. I >scrape off mask and polish it with eraser rod and lay sized and cut >to length if needed pre-shaped to follow the bends in the trace and >solder. > >This repair method is stronger. > >Cheers, Wizard > Hi Medical equipment standards are a little different than what we do. I also do this type of repair and consider it more than adequate. There are several problems though. First is that if one scrapes the plating off to bare copper, a solder to copper joint ages to form a high resistance connection. This is increased by temperature ( mostly a problem in high power locations and old tube circuits ). The other reason is that such joints are sometime difficult to verify if the solder was properly done, especially when the wire is large compared to the trace. Dwight From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 2 15:29:32 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:29:32 +0000 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <200506030021.RAA03164@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050603002734.KWNV16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > > >This repair method is stronger. > > > >Cheers, Wizard > > > > Hi > Medical equipment standards are a little different than what > we do. I also do this type of repair and consider it more > than adequate. There are several problems though. First is > that if one scrapes the plating off to bare copper, a solder > to copper joint ages to form a high resistance connection. > This is increased by temperature ( mostly a problem in high > power locations and old tube circuits ). The other reason is > that such joints are sometime difficult to verify if the > solder was properly done, especially when the wire is large > compared to the trace. > Dwight > I'm no fool. I have seen how solder itself behaved due to my long experience with it. For very wide traces, I use solder wick if one needed to cover a width, fine. If more wider than that, I put down two side to side even three. For eyelets, I use a length of wire bent into U with the bend wrapped around the component's lead with wire laid side to side on the trace. I size the wire's gauge for two wires side to side to fit the trace's width for this application. Do tell more about the medical application especially on trace repairs like this? Cheers, Wizard From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 2 15:36:57 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:36:57 +0000 Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fa In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050602194650.01cb18c0@mail.30below.com> References: Message-ID: <20050603003458.KXWS16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > > > That was my thought, too. I've seen good sets that have TX6, 7, 8, 9, 10, > 15 and up, and I think there's such a thing as a TX12, tho I've never seen > one in captivity. ;-) > > I've seen modern hard drives use both TX6 and 8. > > "Merch" T1 torx exists. Take the IBM thinkpad 701 series thinkpad (butterfly) and look at four tiny screws across the front of bottom casing. That's T1. I have known of T5 and T4. How I know? I own two 701C one for parts, one working and ordered parts for 701 and 710 via their local servicer authorized shop. Cheers, Wizard From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 19:35:17 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 01:35:17 +0100 Subject: IBM 8513 monitors In-Reply-To: <9b.60c3de22.2fd0d74c@aol.com> References: <9b.60c3de22.2fd0d74c@aol.com> Message-ID: <575131af0506021735463f69a3@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/05, SUPRDAVE at aol.com wrote: > I'm surprised you cannot get a NIC to work in OS/2. If it's a 3com or > Cabletron, it should be dead easy, as long as you've got the NDIS drivers. > Sometimes you have to monkey around with ibmlan.ini I think. It's neither. I got the machine onto my home LAN with a Research Machines MCA NIC, but it's /only/ supported under DOS and Windows 3, nothing else. No use for NT. But I managed to turn up a Novell/Eagle NE2-something - I forget now, this is nearly 10y ago - which is basically an MCA NE2000. But naturally, IBM being IBM and OS/2 being OS/2, Warp Server doesn't include drivers for weird minority cards like NE2000s. You can download them readily enough if you search - I used to be a keen OS/2 user, I was used to this - but the MCA version uses weird ports that are impossible with ISA cards, so the ISA card drivers won't accept the settings. So after several days of fiddling, I gave up. NT will do fine. I must find some really lightweight HTTP server for NT3 some day and turn the old girl into a webserver - it's about all she's good for now... But even at the age of 10, for several years she was my main fileserver and stored all my work (I'm a freelance IT journalist, amongst other things) and gave sterling service. Bulletproof. Probably literally, given the build quality of the early PS/2s. -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 2 19:53:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2004 VCF East Pictures... In-Reply-To: <002801c567ce$ddb381e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Jay West wrote: > Hey I was there, you must have just been tired! I talked to pretty much > everyone - just didn't seem to appear in any pictures. I spent most of my > time with Dan Cohoe and Bob Shannon though. Sellam, you and I talked a bunch > out there, and yes I was at dinner. Sat next to Dan and his wife... I think > Mr. Donzelli was one seat away. I was at the end of the U-shaped table > closest to the north. Honestly, I don't remember as much from that weekend as I probably should. Especially on the first day (Friday). You may recall that I flew in from Japan the day before, and did a red-eye flight to get to Boston. I was pretty haggard by the end of the day as I didn't sleep much for the whole week leading up to the event. I was in the air for over 15,000 miles that week. My brain was on hold. But it was fun :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 2 19:55:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2004 VCF East Pictures... In-Reply-To: <007b01c567d1$c5564bc0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Jay West wrote: > Evan wrote... > > Here you go: http://www.users.vance.net/grayarea/marx/jw1237jay.html > > What a riot! Wow, very sexy in that tight leather suit! :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Thu Jun 2 20:10:19 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:10:19 -0700 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files Message-ID: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> There has been a thread on having the correct tools to work on classic computers. I like to collect tools so I don't have a problem with that. There is a recurring thread about how PDF files are a closed standard and some people do not have a computer that will display them. The most of distributors that I shop have their online catalog in PDF, same with the part manufactures. There is a wealth of classic computer documents available in PDF. In 2005 PDF files a very common in society. Most government publications are in PDF. You are making life difficult if to don't have a tool for reading PDF files. I think you can buy a nice one for a few hundred dollars. Michael Holley From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jun 2 20:11:12 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 21:11:12 -0400 Subject: OT, but funny In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:35:44 EDT." <5.1.0.14.2.20050602192733.04d88a80@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200506030111.j531BCDF019457@mwave.heeltoe.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > >OK, there's a race car driver named Peter Gibbons, there's a character off >of the movie "Office Space" (which I never saw, movie trailers looked >*mucho lame* to me), and a teacher in the Department of Computer Sciences >at the Univerisity of Auckland in New Zealand. Where's my stapler!!!??? -brad From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Jun 2 20:19:33 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:19:33 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> From: "Michael Holley" Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:10 PM > There has been a thread on having the correct tools to work on classic > computers. I like to collect tools so I don't have a problem with that. > > There is a recurring thread about how PDF files are a closed standard and > some people do not have a computer that will display them. > > The most of distributors that I shop have their online catalog in PDF, > same with the part manufactures. There is a wealth of classic computer > documents available in PDF. In 2005 PDF files a very common in society. > Most government publications are in PDF. > > You are making life difficult if to don't have a tool for reading PDF > files. I think you can buy a nice one for a few hundred dollars. > > Michael Holley You can buy a used PC for tens of dollars. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jcwren at jcwren.com Thu Jun 2 20:39:22 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 21:39:22 -0400 Subject: OT, but funny In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050602192733.04d88a80@mail.30below.com> References: <200506022130.j52LUu6t054210@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20050602192733.04d88a80@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <429FB4CA.7070201@jcwren.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > OK, there's a race car driver named Peter Gibbons, there's a character > off of the movie "Office Space" (which I never saw, movie trailers > looked *mucho lame* to me), and a teacher in the Department of > Computer Sciences at the Univerisity of Auckland in New Zealand. Office Space is damned funny. It's one of the few movies I've seen more than 10 or 15 times. *Highly* recommended. --jc From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Jun 2 21:03:47 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 05 02:03:47 GMT Subject: Question about PDF manipulation Message-ID: <0506030203.AA00765@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > We should make a list of what users are unable to view PDF's, starting with > Tony how many others have no practical method of viewing a PDF or a friend > with a compatible system? /me raises hand The only thing I can do with a PDF file is to convert it to PostScript. I then send PS to my printer over a 19200 baud serial line. There are very few things in the Universe that enrage me more than PDF files that have been produced from PostScript with the original PS being unavailable to me. PS reconstructed from PDF is never as good as the original PS from which the PDF was made. The difference between PostScript and PDF is very much like that between the source and binary forms of a program. Publishing PDF files while withholding or discarding PS from which they were made is a crime against humanity just like closed source software and should be subject to the same penalty ("rasstrel na meste bez suda i sledstviya" in Russian). MS From rcini at optonline.net Thu Jun 2 21:11:00 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:11:00 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: <200506021710.KAA03024@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <003001c567e1$7c79d970$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> OK, I pulled the front panel appart tonight and I found out that whoever owned this model colored the silkscreen with magic marker. Bogus! Anyway, I can get a new photomask from Todd Fischer for $20. Well worth it. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 1:11 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too >From: "Dave Dunfield" > ---snip--- > >The "IMSAI 8080" does not light up and should appear clearly visible in >white. Sounds like the logo was removed for some reason ... hopefully >it was covered with a bit of black paper and not "backed out with a >marker". > > Hi My IMSAI came with as piece of black paper over the logo. I was told that it was used for early development work. This is consistent with the fact that it had one of the early Digital Systems floppy controllers that transferred by DMA. The only problem I have is that the serial number is missing :( Dwight From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Thu Jun 2 22:56:04 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:56:04 -0700 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too References: <200506020656.j526twPw042714@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001701c567f0$307feff0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Rich, I checked out your web site and you have an IMSAI and an Altair on your wanted list. You can be like Austin Powers and scratch those off the list. Michael Holley > Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:55:36 -0400 > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too > To: CCTalk > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 2 23:16:09 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> <1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200506030419.AAA12463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > - Ran identify again on the resulting TIFF file, and the comment's now > changed to: "Image generated by ESP Ghostscript (device=pnmraw)" > ... so it looks like any TIFF 'metadata' isn't getting preserved. Worse, it is probably re-rendering the pixels, so unless it's quite careful, it's introduced blur due to mismatches between the original's pixel boundaries and the output's pixel boundaries. Did you compare the pixel contents bit-for-bit? > Looking at the PDF file, I'm not convinced there's any TIFF data in > there to be honest. It looks more like the image is re-encoded from > the input TIFF to PDFs own way of storing bitmap data - in other > words it's not simply a wrapper for a bunch of TIFF images, but > merely a wrapper for bitmap data in PDF's own format. It's not *quite* that simple. I've seen PDFs containing JPEGs which I could pick the JPEGs out of simply by looking for the \xff\xd8\xff\xe0..JFIF marker. Unless of course the "PDF's own format" *is* JPEG, which would be both surprising and disappointing. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 2 23:28:31 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:28:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> You are making life difficult if to don't have a tool for reading >> PDF files. I think you can buy a nice one for a few hundred >> dollars. > You can buy a used PC for tens of dollars. Including the monitor and the license fees for all the necessary bits of software? And including someone to be its sysadmin? I'm certainly not about to baby along a machine running closed-source software. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Jun 2 23:45:59 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:45:59 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> From: "der Mouse" Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:28 PM >>> You are making life difficult if to don't have a tool for reading >>> PDF files. I think you can buy a nice one for a few hundred >>> dollars. >> You can buy a used PC for tens of dollars. > > Including the monitor and the license fees for all the necessary bits > of software? And including someone to be its sysadmin? I'm certainly > not about to baby along a machine running closed-source software. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B PC's can run either open source or closed source OS's. I don't know of any classic computer that came out with open source DOS's (but a few open source monitors). Today CP/M source is available but in the 70's it was only available via disassembled source or very expensive licensing with non-disclosure agreements from DRI. How many open source OS's were available in the 70's or earlier? When did Zsys come out? How many people on this list have always dealt with open source systems? Randy www.s100-manuals.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 2 23:49:05 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > PC's can run either open source or closed source OS's. Does Acrobat run under any of the open-source ones? Is Acrobat itself free (at least as-in-beer)? And I'm still not about to sink my own time into the rathole of sysadminning the machine, not with closed-source software on it (even if the OS is open). > I don't know of any classic computer that came out with open source > DOS's (but a few open source monitors). ...so? None of my machines, classic or not, run the OS they came with (if any); I'm here for the hardware, not the software, side of things. (When I have the OS, I have a copy of it archived, but I don't do anything with them; they're against the day when I do find a reason to, or for a putative someone else.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 3 00:13:46 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:13:46 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> From: "der Mouse" Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:49 PM >> PC's can run either open source or closed source OS's. > > Does Acrobat run under any of the open-source ones? Is Acrobat itself > free (at least as-in-beer)? And I'm still not about to sink my own > time into the rathole of sysadminning the machine, not with > closed-source software on it (even if the OS is open). The closed source Acrobat reader is available for Linux and there are several open source packages. >> I don't know of any classic computer that came out with open source >> DOS's (but a few open source monitors). > > ...so? None of my machines, classic or not, run the OS they came with > (if any); I'm here for the hardware, not the software, side of things. > (When I have the OS, I have a copy of it archived, but I don't do > anything with them; they're against the day when I do find a reason to, > or for a putative someone else.) The point was that anyone that wants to be able to easily handle PDF's can do so very cheaply and are not required to deal with either Micro$loth or Adobe. The arguments over open source vs. closed source are side non-issues. More to the point people complaining over Windoze being a closed system misses the point that this group is filled with people that never gave a thought to open source OS's when they got their classic systems. > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 3 00:41:32 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 01:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> Message-ID: <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The point was that anyone that wants to be able to easily handle > PDF's can do so very cheaply and are not required to deal with either > Micro$loth or Adobe. Easily? Which of those "several open source packages" includes a scriptable (ie, command-line) tool to extract the embedded images from a PDF? (Not to render them and give the resulting rendered image, but to extract the image itself.) Certainly ghostscript couldn't last time I looked. Without that, I can't consider it fair to say that I can "easily handle PDFs", since that's the second most common thing I want to do with PDFs. (The first most common is to convert to PostScript for printing, which ghostscript does do a reasonably good job of.) > More to the point people complaining over Windoze being a closed > system misses the point that this group is filled with people that > never gave a thought to open source OS's when they got their classic > systems. Perhaps you see no difference between running classic closed-source software on a classic machine with no networking, often no connection to anything else, and running modern closed-source software on a modern machine with a network link. I, on the other hand, see many differences, at least a few of which would be relevant for me if I had any machines to which the question even applied. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 3 00:55:00 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <45080.71.129.198.222.1117778100.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Bj?rn wrote: > Thus, those who scan things (a task I really appreciate a lot) do not > spend valuable time making the results less accessible, and it will be > easy to OCR the images later on. > > My point is that a pure bitmap is both easier to make and more useable > than an Acrobat document, both for archival purposes and for further work. I disagree. It's not particularly difficult to pull the bitmaps back out of a PDF document and convert them into whatever fromat you like. For instance, the pdfimages program that is part of the free xpdf software can do it, and there are many Windows utilities as well. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 3 01:04:53 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <200506021936.PAA18082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <200506021936.PAA18082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <47299.71.129.198.222.1117778693.squirrel@71.129.198.222> der Mouse wrote: > I'm entirely with you. But that said, I'd rather have a PDF than > nothing at all, and it seems many of the people scanning stuff are > unwilling to do anything else. :-? If you put up TIFF files, you get innundated with complaints that "your TIFF files are broken", because they are trying to use some random losing TIFF viewer that only supports DCT compression or something. Speaking from experience. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 3 01:09:10 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <36988.71.129.198.222.1117778950.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > Do we actually *have* the tools? Yes. pdfimages, from xpdf. > We've got tumble to assemble a PDF > file, but do we have proper tools to disassemble one? ...and I really > mean exporting the initial TIFF, not something that looks like it. There's not any way to reconstruct the original TIFF file exactly, because there are too many possible variations. But it is possible to reconstruct a TIFF file that contains the identical image data. In other words, decompressing the original TIFF vs. the reconstructed TIFF would result in the same bitmap. Eric From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 3 01:13:46 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 01:13:46 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy><200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <000e01c56803$6a3b50f0$883cd7d1@randy> From: "der Mouse" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 12:41 AM >> The point was that anyone that wants to be able to easily handle >> PDF's can do so very cheaply and are not required to deal with either >> Micro$loth or Adobe. > > Easily? > > Which of those "several open source packages" includes a scriptable > (ie, command-line) tool to extract the embedded images from a PDF? > (Not to render them and give the resulting rendered image, but to > extract the image itself.) Certainly ghostscript couldn't last time I > looked. > > Without that, I can't consider it fair to say that I can "easily handle > PDFs", since that's the second most common thing I want to do with > PDFs. (The first most common is to convert to PostScript for printing, > which ghostscript does do a reasonably good job of.) Like always if anyone wants to do a task they either use what's available and work with its means or they develope their own. >> More to the point people complaining over Windoze being a closed >> system misses the point that this group is filled with people that >> never gave a thought to open source OS's when they got their classic >> systems. > > Perhaps you see no difference between running classic closed-source > software on a classic machine with no networking, often no connection > to anything else, and running modern closed-source software on a modern > machine with a network link. > > I, on the other hand, see many differences, at least a few of which > would be relevant for me if I had any machines to which the question > even applied. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Then as now the OS is a tool to be used, it can be a conduit to achieving the task at hand. Networking was not invented on PC's I setup many 8 bit networks. Then as now I use what is available to achieve the desired goal. Yes windows today is completely equivalent to the different OS's I've used on a variety of systems since I started in the mid 70's. The fact that Micro$loth has created a bloated giant that self destructs with time is a side issue. The open source equivalent Linux is also a bloated giant. I can not support my clients wishes by using CP/M or any other classic environment. I would go broke trying to convince them to go the way I want them to go. I setup Linux servers and Windoze workstations not because I believe that it is perfect but it is the best I can do within the boundaries I live in. To decide to not use any particular piece of hardware or software that can easily and cheaply do a desired job then whine because other people don't bend over backwards to support your wishes for no charge is idiotic. If you don't like PDF's I recommend that you start a monastery to copy by hand any documents you want archived. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 3 01:15:22 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <45058.71.129.198.222.1117779322.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > You didn't answer my question:-) Consider I prepare a TIFF file that > contains (with additional tags) eg. some raw OCRed text, not > read-checked. Now I preapre a PDF from this and use gs to get the image > back. Is my text still there? Depends on whether the program you use to prepare the PDF file from the TIFF file knows about those "additional tags" and does something with them. Anyhow, it's much easier to put OCR'd (unchecked) text behind the images in PDF files. You can actually put the characters or words at the exact coordinates of the bitmaps, so that when you do a search and get a hit, the bitmap of the matching word is highlighted. Perhaps someone could write a PDF OCR utility based on kognition, Clara OCR, GNU Ocrad, or ocre. Does any TIFF file of the nature you describe actually exist? PDFs with both bitmaps and text are not uncommon. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 3 01:25:22 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <200506030419.AAA12463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> <1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506030419.AAA12463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <38785.71.129.198.222.1117779922.squirrel@71.129.198.222> der Mouse wrote: > Unless of course the "PDF's own format" *is* JPEG, which would be both > surprising and disappointing. JPEG is *one* of multiple image formats supported in PDF files. For photographs and continuous tone images, it's a reasonable choice for distribution (but perhaps not for archiving). But people who scan text and line art and use JPEG compression on it are driving me insane. That results in the text and line art having blurry edges. Ugh. Eric From tomj at wps.com Fri Jun 3 01:25:51 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <47299.71.129.198.222.1117778693.squirrel@71.129.198.222> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <200506021936.PAA18082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47299.71.129.198.222.1117778693.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: <20050602232231.U941@localhost> Eric! Stop giving me those $20 bills! You know I only like $10's! To make 10's from 20's I have to go all the way to the store! {In my best William Burroughs nasal whine} It's sooooo inconvenient! From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 3 01:26:19 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <38800.71.129.198.222.1117779979.squirrel@71.129.198.222> der Mouse wrote: > Which of those "several open source packages" includes a scriptable > (ie, command-line) tool to extract the embedded images from a PDF? xpdf From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 3 01:28:44 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 01:28:44 -0500 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com><8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com><35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202><200506021936.PAA18082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <47299.71.129.198.222.1117778693.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: <001901c56805$81a4bef0$883cd7d1@randy> From: "Eric Smith" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 1:04 AM > der Mouse wrote: >> I'm entirely with you. But that said, I'd rather have a PDF than >> nothing at all, and it seems many of the people scanning stuff are >> unwilling to do anything else. :-? > > If you put up TIFF files, you get innundated with complaints that "your > TIFF files are broken", because they are trying to use some random > losing TIFF viewer that only supports DCT compression or something. > > Speaking from experience. > > Eric >From experience I have found that there is no format for any type of data that is acceptable to everyone. Today I was at a clients office and one of the managers installed QuickTime on his computer to play a video clip. He then tried to display a scanned invoice (tiff file), it gave him the big Q symbol and displayed a blank screen. I changed the QuickTime plugin to ignore tiff files and it started working again. The point is there are hundreds of tiff viewers that are incompatible on the most basic level but very few PDF incompatibilities (yes I know that every once in a while there is a problem but nowhere as many as with tiff viewers). I went to a fair amount of effort to find a tiff viewer that works well with their documents (alternatiff) and hate it that every time I turn around someone is loading something incompatible. BTW that's both a Windoze rant as well as a rant on everyone else that believes they know what is best for a system I have configured the way I like it such as Apple. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From technobug at comcast.net Fri Jun 3 01:39:48 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:39:48 -0700 Subject: HP9000 Flexible Disk Subsystem In-Reply-To: <200506030626.j536QTnn063308@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506030626.j536QTnn063308@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I spotted an 8" floppy disk subsystem (2 + controller board) for an HP 9??? system (was in a rush and didn't have time to get the particulars). If anyone is interested, ring my bell and I'll follow up with the details. CRC From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 3 02:01:01 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 03:01:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <000e01c56803$6a3b50f0$883cd7d1@randy> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy><200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000e01c56803$6a3b50f0$883cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <200506030702.DAA13587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > If you don't like PDF's I recommend that you start a monastery to > copy by hand any documents you want archived. That's a rather peculiar suggestion. Now you have me curious - why would you think that I'd consider hand copying the best of the available non-PDF alternatives? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 3 02:33:29 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <000e01c56803$6a3b50f0$883cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > Yes windows today is completely equivalent to the different OS's I've used > on a variety of systems since I started in the mid 70's. The fact that > Micro$loth has created a bloated giant that self destructs with time is a > side issue. The open source equivalent Linux is also a bloated giant. Except that it rarely (if ever) self destructs with time. BIG difference. > If you don't like PDF's I recommend that you start a monastery to copy by > hand any documents you want archived. Shave your head and buy a fricken robe while you're at it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 3 05:15:04 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 06:15:04 -0400 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A02DA8.nail8KG11Y95I@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> Suppose you have a CompuPro memory card and no manual. The card is >> useless. I would greatly disagree. S-100 Static memory boards are about as simple as you can get. I'm not saying that all Compupro memory boards are identical to generic static memory boards (the Compupro ones tend to have a few extra parts to do full IEEE-696), but the similarities are 98% and the differences are 2%. Now, start talking about dynamic RAM S-100 boards, or Compupro M-Drive boards, and then it's not quite so crystal clear :-). Tim. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 3 06:42:21 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:42:21 +0000 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <006601c567d0$4a552640$4992d6d1@randy> References: <006601c567d0$4a552640$4992d6d1@randy> Message-ID: <1117798941.20268.27.camel@weka.localdomain> > We should make a list of what users are unable to view PDF's, starting with > Tony how many others have no practical method of viewing a PDF or a friend > with a compatible system? Presumably at some point the question needs to be one of what alternatives there are out there, what their pros and cons are, and how many people don't like format x / don't care / think format x is a good idea. In the context of what the data is and what it's being used for. Otherwise it gets to the situation as with Word docs - seems like everyone throws Word docs around because that's what everyone else does, not because it's the right tool for the job at hand. I've yet to see a good defence of PDF files, but that doesn't mean that people haven't made a careful choice to use PDF over anything else and for perfectly good reasons. I'm happy converting downloaded PDF files to seperate image files for my own use; and of course I very much appreciate the efforts of those who put these things together :) But there is a question of whether conversion to PDF throws important data away, or whether Adobe might suddenly change the tools, or whether they'll carry on getting ever more bloated, or whether PDF's going to be a viable format in ten years time... (I notice that Word is moving to an XML-based format, which is likely a good thing - it's going to make it possible to easily search and convert at least) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 3 06:28:16 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:28:16 +0000 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117798096.20286.15.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 23:36 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone have the pinouts of the Nascom 2 keyboard connector handy? > > Yes. I have the Nascom 2 manual in front of me. From waht I can see, the > keybaord came as an assembled unit, and there's no schematic in the > manual for that. But the pinouts of the connector are there, here you are ta... nice to confirm it's not in the manual anyway. I think I'll trace out the keyboard schematic and see what the reset line does. If it's not needed by the keyboard itself, I'll move it to the CPU chassis and use DA15's for the keyboard. If it is needed, I'll have to go the DB25 route. I did wonder about DA26 connectors, but I'm not sure if those were about when the Nascom 2 was current (I'm trying to use period bits for everything). Plus I don't think I have any in the junk box anyway... Cutting out the right shaped holes in aluminium for these connectors is a right pain in the butt, so I don't want to have to do it more than once ;) ta for the info Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 3 06:50:23 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:50:23 +0000 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <200506030419.AAA12463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> <1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506030419.AAA12463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1117799423.20268.36.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 00:16 -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > - Ran identify again on the resulting TIFF file, and the comment's now > > changed to: "Image generated by ESP Ghostscript (device=pnmraw)" > > > ... so it looks like any TIFF 'metadata' isn't getting preserved. > > Worse, it is probably re-rendering the pixels, so unless it's quite > careful, it's introduced blur due to mismatches between the original's > pixel boundaries and the output's pixel boundaries. Did you compare > the pixel contents bit-for-bit? Sort-of. Well, what I tried was taking my original image and the one that was a result of the conversion from PDF, setting the comment field back to that of the original TIFF image, then running a checksum on both files. They were different, but then that's probably not alarming; there's likely a timestamp in there or extra tags added or the tags are in a different order etc. I'll load the two images into a viewer and save the raw pixel data then compare that I think, which should be a fair test.... > > Looking at the PDF file, I'm not convinced there's any TIFF data in > > there to be honest. It looks more like the image is re-encoded from > > the input TIFF to PDFs own way of storing bitmap data - in other > > words it's not simply a wrapper for a bunch of TIFF images, but > > merely a wrapper for bitmap data in PDF's own format. > > It's not *quite* that simple. I've seen PDFs containing JPEGs which I > could pick the JPEGs out of simply by looking for the > \xff\xd8\xff\xe0..JFIF marker. > > Unless of course the "PDF's own format" *is* JPEG, which would be both > surprising and disappointing. Hmm. I've certainly seen PDFs where the source JPEG data has been far better quality than the data embedded in the resulting PDF file. Always put that down to the quality of the PDF viewer, but maybe it's the actual data - maybe PDF always recodes source JPEG data to JPEG internally (with a drop in quality) and always recodes non-lossy data (e.g. TIFF) to its own internal non-lossy format. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 3 06:59:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:59:26 +0000 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <38785.71.129.198.222.1117779922.squirrel@71.129.198.222> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> <1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506030419.AAA12463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <38785.71.129.198.222.1117779922.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: <1117799966.20268.42.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 23:25 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > But people who scan text and line art and use JPEG compression on it > are driving me insane. That results in the text and line art having > blurry edges. Ugh. Heh, I'm with you there. Personally I like those who scan schematics and save as GIF - not that GIF is necessarily bad, but they seem to be the same people who apparently move whatever it is they're scanning around the scanner bed during the process, or run some pixel randomiser on the resulting data or something :-) Oh, that or they get the threshold settings totally out so that each line on the schematic ends up a jagged mess as wide as your arm. Urgh. I keep on having to redraw downloaded schematics because the source image is such a mess, and it's starting to be a pain :-( cheers Jules From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Jun 3 07:06:15 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:06:15 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: Mike: Yes, you're right...I guess now I can cross it off the list (Austin Powers is one of my favorite movies BTW. Yeah, baby!). However, if you already have an [insert rare machine name here] and someone offered you a second one of the same for the cost of shipping, would you (or anyone on this list) turn it down unless they were seriously out of space? Time to watch War Games... Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Holley Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:56 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Rich, I checked out your web site and you have an IMSAI and an Altair on your wanted list. You can be like Austin Powers and scratch those off the list. Michael Holley > Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:55:36 -0400 > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too > To: CCTalk > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 3 07:09:02 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 12:09:02 +0000 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <45058.71.129.198.222.1117779322.squirrel@71.129.198.222> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> <45058.71.129.198.222.1117779322.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: <1117800542.20268.51.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 23:15 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Does any TIFF file of the nature you describe actually exist? PDFs > with both bitmaps and text are not uncommon. I'm not sure I've seen one, and I've dealt with a *lot* of TIFF files over the years. Other metadata such as the app that created the image etc. is quite common though, and I have a feeling that Photoshop puts in all sorts of extra tags (I haven't got a copy here with which to check) Whether any such tags are useful to preserve is another matter. Personally I like the accountability; I'd like to know who scanned a document, when they scanned it, what software they used to do the scan. Mainly because it may help at some future OCR stage in identifying ways of improving the process or runs of documents that are likely to cause trouble during the OCR phase. Plus of course it's nice to know who was responsible for the hard work! cheers Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 3 08:10:43 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 08:10:43 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050603080941.046586e0@mail> At 08:19 PM 6/2/2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >From: "Michael Holley" >>You are making life difficult if to don't have a tool for reading PDF files. I think you can buy a nice one for a few hundred dollars. > >You can buy a used PC for tens of dollars. Apparently it's OK to spend $200 on a nice set of wrenches, but not OK to scrounge a contemporary PC to read contemporary documentation containers. - John From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jun 3 08:19:24 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:19:24 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: <20050603131923.SNOT5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> > Yes, you're right...I guess now I can cross it off the list (Austin >Powers is one of my favorite movies BTW. Yeah, baby!). However, if you >already have an [insert rare machine name here] and someone offered you a >second one of the same for the cost of shipping, would you (or anyone on >this list) turn it down unless they were seriously out of space? Besides, the next Altair might be an original 8800 or an 8800-A ... I have two 8800's, but I would love to get a -A and a -B as well (and I wouldn't turn down another 8800 either :-) > Time to watch War Games... Yeah, when I finally got my IMSAI a couple of months ago, I actually bought the Wargames DVD just so I could show my kids that the computer was in the movie (and I wanted to see it again as well). regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jun 3 08:23:01 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:23:01 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: <20050603132300.SOSQ5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >OK, I pulled the front panel appart tonight and I found out that whoever >owned this model colored the silkscreen with magic marker. Bogus! > >Anyway, I can get a new photomask from Todd Fischer for $20. Well worth >it. I was afraid of that ... Although it's good that you can get a replacement, keeping it all original has merit as well - depending on the marker used, you might be able to carefully remove it. Try a Q-tip with some whiteboard cleaner and move up to stronger solutions as required. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 3 08:42:30 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:42:30 -0400 Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools References: <429E57AB.6040809@internet1.net> Message-ID: <17056.24134.492158.125404@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> Half the time, cheap tools don't work well when they're new, >> either. Tony> Exactly. Several times I've tried to repair something for Tony> somebody using their toolkit and have stopped halfway through Tony> to go back and get my tools. Not becuase they don't have the Tony> right tool, but becasue their tools are such poor quality that Tony> I will do damage to the device I am repairing if I try to use Tony> them. Case in point: conventional flat screwdrivers, which have a wedge shape. It's hard to find anything else, but well worth the trouble; the conventional kind WILL destroy your screws. I no longer mind working with slotted screws ever since I inherited a gunsmith screwdriver set. Those are vastly superior -- they come in a lot more sizes so you can find a good fit, and the tip is hollow-ground so the faces are parallel, not in a V shape. So the screwdriver doesn't "cam out" as the hardware store type does. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 3 08:52:06 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:52:06 -0400 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <17056.24710.647087.757760@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Holley writes: Michael> You are making life difficult if to don't have a tool for Michael> reading PDF files. I think you can buy a nice one for a few Michael> hundred dollars. You can get several perfectly functional readers for zero dollars, including open source ones. paul From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Jun 3 08:59:18 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:59:18 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: Dave: Interesting. I guess that I'll stop by Staples on the way home and pick up a bottle of the whiteboard cleaner. I did ask the donator what the story was with the blacked-out logo but I haven't heard from him yet. If he used a Sharpie marker, I'm not sure that I can get that off without damaging the plastic. Maybe WD40? Like I mentioned, Todd Fischer is selling new computer-generated masks rather than the photomasks used originally. He claims that the graphics are sharper and clearer than the original. I would keep the original photomask in storage anyway. Seeing the logo is more important to me than keeping the mask vintage. Rich ============================= Richard A. Cini, Jr. Director Wachovia Capital Finance 1133 Avenue of the Americas New York, NY 10036 W: 212-545-4402 F: 212-545-4589 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 9:23 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too >OK, I pulled the front panel appart tonight and I found out that whoever >owned this model colored the silkscreen with magic marker. Bogus! > >Anyway, I can get a new photomask from Todd Fischer for $20. Well worth >it. I was afraid of that ... Although it's good that you can get a replacement, keeping it all original has merit as well - depending on the marker used, you might be able to carefully remove it. Try a Q-tip with some whiteboard cleaner and move up to stronger solutions as required. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 3 09:11:15 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:11:15 -0400 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <17056.25859.279990.478296@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> PC's can run either open source or closed source OS's. der> Does Acrobat run under any of the open-source ones? Is Acrobat der> itself free (at least as-in-beer)? Yes, and yes. Adobe recently released an update of Acrobat for Linux (for a long time they hadn't gone beyond V5; recently they released V7 which I believe is the current version). I've used both on my Linux (Fedora 1) system. Both work, though V7 is clearly better. That includes some things I run into at work that other viewers don't handle -- such as password-protected files. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 3 09:13:40 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:13:40 -0400 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> <1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506030419.AAA12463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <17056.26004.372451.328190@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> - Ran identify again on the resulting TIFF file, and the comment's >> now changed to: "Image generated by ESP Ghostscript >> (device=pnmraw)" >> ... so it looks like any TIFF 'metadata' isn't getting preserved. der> Worse, it is probably re-rendering the pixels, so unless it's der> quite careful, it's introduced blur due to mismatches between der> the original's pixel boundaries and the output's pixel der> boundaries. Is that speculation or have you seen something that supports this notion? Given Adobe's background, I would assume your speculation is false -- Adobe knows this stuff far better than most of us. paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 3 09:29:15 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:29:15 +0000 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <17056.25859.279990.478296@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17056.25859.279990.478296@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1117808955.20286.89.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 10:11 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: > > >> PC's can run either open source or closed source OS's. > der> Does Acrobat run under any of the open-source ones? Is Acrobat > der> itself free (at least as-in-beer)? > > Yes, and yes. Adobe recently released an update of Acrobat for Linux > (for a long time they hadn't gone beyond V5; recently they released V7 > which I believe is the current version). I've used both on my Linux > (Fedora 1) system. Both work, though V7 is clearly better. I'd disagree there - V7 eats up 100MB of disk space, and doesn't seem any faster or better at rendering than V5 was (plus it takes a lot longer to start up). Either version seems better able to handle large files and have better rengering quality than the competition though, which I think says more about how bad the competition is than how good Acrobat is :-( (V7 install here moans about a "PPKLite" plugin on startup, whatever that does. Doesn't seem to actually break anything though) I suppose Adobe are forced to pile ever more features that hardly anyone needs into each release of Acrobat because there's no other direction they can take. Personally I'd rather they lost 90% of the bloat and came up with a clean, small-footprint reader that just did the things needed by most common PDF files :-( cheers J. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 09:33:49 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:33:49 -0500 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/3/05, Cini, Richard wrote: > Interesting. I guess that I'll stop by Staples on the way home and > pick up a bottle of the whiteboard cleaner. I did ask the donator what the > story was with the blacked-out logo but I haven't heard from him yet. If he > used a Sharpie marker, I'm not sure that I can get that off without damaging > the plastic. Maybe WD40? Here's a trick for removing sharpie marks from _some_ surfaces (works _great_ on CD-Rs)... draw over the sharpie with a dry-erase marker, then wipe off the dry erase marker with a soft cloth (not your finger). the alcohol in the dry-erase marker is a good solvent for sharpies, and unless the surface is soluable in alcohol, no damage will be left behind. This trick is not suitable for heavily textured surfaces because the dry erase marker will get stuck in the texture and not come up. I would not use WD-40 to try to remove sharpie ink... I don't think it's petroleum soluable anyway. -ethan From drb at msu.edu Fri Jun 3 09:35:10 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 10:35:10 -0400 Subject: Help collecting gear from west of Chicago Message-ID: <200506031435.j53EZAm5002197@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Looking for someone who can "rescue" and temporarily store a PDP-11. > It's about 30 miles west of O'Hare, apparently. I won this at auction; > the notification didn't arrive, and now that I'm traveling and can't do > anything about it, they want the beast out of their building yesterday. I ended up hiring a commercial pack/ship outfit to get this home, and it was delivered yesterday -- 2199 pounds. Thanks to the folks who said they would help me load it if I picked it up. Here's a first glimpse inventory of the haul: The CPU is a PDP-11/44 with additional labels indicating it was a Teradyne Teranet ATE Networking System, whatever that is. In addition to the CPU, the tall cabinet (purple and orange DEC banner across the top) contains a serial mux, a DEC battery backup, two RL02s, and an additional card chassis with some damage to its backplane wiring. The latter contains a pair of memory boards (Mostek), and some Teradyne-built items; I don't recognize the bus -- two edge connectors, each wider than qbus. It doesn't look like the unibus cards I've seen. The first small cabinet (9764, I think?) contains three RA81 drives; one is labeled 'bad hda'. The second small cabinet (also 9764) contains a TU80 and an RA81. The RA is labeled 'bad motor / bad hda'. Also included are a Decwriter, a DataProducts line printer, and a VT131. It looks like the cabling is pretty much intact. Whoever decommissioned this system did a decent job of tucking cables up into the backs of the cabinets. I figured with my luck someone would have just cut them, so I get to be happy now. I haven't had the CPU out on its rails yet, so I don't know what's inside. I'm going to have to work on power outlets before I can even try to run this beast. (And yes, I intend to look through the archives for tips on proper pre- and first-power-up etiquette before I blow anything up) Guess I have a summer project now. (Like I need any more projects. :-) De From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 3 09:34:36 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:34:36 +0000 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <17056.26004.372451.328190@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> <1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506030419.AAA12463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17056.26004.372451.328190@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1117809276.20268.93.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 10:13 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: > > >> - Ran identify again on the resulting TIFF file, and the comment's > >> now changed to: "Image generated by ESP Ghostscript > >> (device=pnmraw)" > > >> ... so it looks like any TIFF 'metadata' isn't getting preserved. > > der> Worse, it is probably re-rendering the pixels, so unless it's > der> quite careful, it's introduced blur due to mismatches between > der> the original's pixel boundaries and the output's pixel > der> boundaries. > > Is that speculation or have you seen something that supports this > notion? Given Adobe's background, I would assume your speculation is > false -- Adobe knows this stuff far better than most of us. Quick test done here, and it does result in exactly the same pixel data between souce image and the one that's 'passed' through a PDF file; I saved both before and after images and pnm and a checksum on them shows that they match... cheers Jules From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 3 10:13:54 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:13:54 -0500 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com><8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com><35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202><17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de><17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de><1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain><200506030419.AAA12463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><17056.26004.372451.328190@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1117809276.20268.93.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <003801c5684e$df654160$773cd7d1@randy> From: "Jules Richardson" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 9:34 AM > On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 10:13 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> >> >> - Ran identify again on the resulting TIFF file, and the comment's >> >> now changed to: "Image generated by ESP Ghostscript >> >> (device=pnmraw)" >> >> >> ... so it looks like any TIFF 'metadata' isn't getting preserved. >> >> der> Worse, it is probably re-rendering the pixels, so unless it's >> der> quite careful, it's introduced blur due to mismatches between >> der> the original's pixel boundaries and the output's pixel >> der> boundaries. >> >> Is that speculation or have you seen something that supports this >> notion? Given Adobe's background, I would assume your speculation is >> false -- Adobe knows this stuff far better than most of us. > > Quick test done here, and it does result in exactly the same pixel data > between souce image and the one that's 'passed' through a PDF file; I > saved both before and after images and pnm and a checksum on them shows > that they match... > > cheers > > Jules What gets me is the simple fact that non-Adobe utilities changed a comment field in a tiff -> pdf -> tiff and from that it is taken as gospel that is the fault of the PDF structure. I may look into trying it with other utilities including Adobe's Acrobat. Even if it does destroy the comment field the info can be put in the PDF meta data. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 3 10:17:09 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:17:09 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <6.2.1.2.2.20050603080941.046586e0@mail> Message-ID: <000e01c5684f$53846da0$773cd7d1@randy> From: "John Foust" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 8:10 AM > At 08:19 PM 6/2/2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >>From: "Michael Holley" >>>You are making life difficult if to don't have a tool for reading PDF >>>files. I think you can buy a nice one for a few hundred dollars. >> >>You can buy a used PC for tens of dollars. > > Apparently it's OK to spend $200 on a nice set of wrenches, but not > OK to scrounge a contemporary PC to read contemporary documentation > containers. > > - John In this case there were two questions: How much does it cost to have the minimum tools to handle the data and are you forced into closed source software. Personally I use a P4 & Acrobat Pro. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 3 10:30:38 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: <20050603132300.SOSQ5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >OK, I pulled the front panel appart tonight and I found out that whoever > >owned this model colored the silkscreen with magic marker. Bogus! > > > >Anyway, I can get a new photomask from Todd Fischer for $20. Well worth > >it. > > I was afraid of that ... Although it's good that you can get a replacement, > keeping it all original has merit as well - depending on the marker used, > you might be able to carefully remove it. Try a Q-tip with some whiteboard > cleaner and move up to stronger solutions as required. Oh for ****'s sake. How is cleaning off the ink any different from replacing the strip? You just said, "keeping it all original has merit as well". I guess attacking it with whiteboard cleaner is not considered a modification to the original? Like sane people do, note down the modification and keep the note with the system (use a tagged string so you can tie the tag internally to keep Dave happy). Put the original in a safe place (which is I'm sure what Rich planned to do). Sheesh. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 3 10:32:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Cini, Richard wrote: > Interesting. I guess that I'll stop by Staples on the way home and > pick up a bottle of the whiteboard cleaner. I did ask the donator what the > story was with the blacked-out logo but I haven't heard from him yet. If he > used a Sharpie marker, I'm not sure that I can get that off without damaging > the plastic. Maybe WD40? Perhaps some mineral spirits. Don't apply to the plastic itself. Apply to cloth then rub lightly on the affected spot. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Fri Jun 3 10:40:44 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:40:44 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? Message-ID: I have a device that plugs into a serial port on a PC and looks like a disk drive to an Atari 800. Is there such a thing for RT-11? It seems like it should be possible to write a disk driver that uses a serial port and some sort of serial protocol to communicate with a PC and make RT-11 think it is accessing a local disk drive. Has anyone done anything like that? I have a PDP-11/23 system that is taking up too much space and I would like to replace it with a small QBus backplane containing an 11/23 CPU, some memory and a multi-port serial card. I would use one serial port as the console and another as the "disk" connection back to a PC. Has this been done before? Another related question is what is the smallest QBus backplane mounted in a box with a power supply that will support an 11/23 CPU (M8186), a memory card (M8044) and a serial port/boot rom card (M8047) and maybe a multi-port serial card (M8043)? Thanks! David From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 3 10:46:46 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:46:46 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? References: Message-ID: <17056.31590.897861.483700@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "David" == David Betz writes: David> I have a device that plugs into a serial port on a PC and David> looks like a disk drive to an Atari 800. Is there such a thing David> for RT-11? It seems like it should be possible to write a disk David> driver that uses a serial port and some sort of serial David> protocol to communicate with a PC and make RT-11 think it is David> accessing a local disk drive. You could make it look like a TU-58, which is a block structured device. So RT11 should treat that like a disk. paul From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Fri Jun 3 10:49:34 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:49:34 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: <17056.31590.897861.483700@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <17056.31590.897861.483700@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Does the TU-58 use a standard RS-232 serial interface? Is the protocol defined somewhere? Thanks, David On Jun 3, 2005, at 11:46 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "David" == David Betz writes: > > David> I have a device that plugs into a serial port on a PC and > David> looks like a disk drive to an Atari 800. Is there such a thing > David> for RT-11? It seems like it should be possible to write a disk > David> driver that uses a serial port and some sort of serial > David> protocol to communicate with a PC and make RT-11 think it is > David> accessing a local disk drive. > > You could make it look like a TU-58, which is a block structured > device. So RT11 should treat that like a disk. > > paul > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 3 10:48:57 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:48:57 +0000 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <003801c5684e$df654160$773cd7d1@randy> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> <1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506030419.AAA12463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17056.26004.372451.328190@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1117809276.20268.93.camel@weka.localdomain> <003801c5684e$df654160$773cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <1117813737.20286.100.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 10:13 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > What gets me is the simple fact that non-Adobe utilities changed a comment > field in a tiff -> pdf -> tiff and from that it is taken as gospel that is > the fault of the PDF structure. For sure... and it could be broken tools of course - but if the PDF spec says that image metadata must be preserved then I'm surprised the tools don't do it. I'm getting the impression at the moment that the spec is likely to say that images are recoded when inserted into a PDF file, and no mention is made of what to do with metadata. > I may look into trying it with other utilities including Adobe's Acrobat. Let me know if you do - be interesting to hear what you find out. If the PDF spec's on Adobe's web site then I haven't been able to find it yet... cheers Jules From drb at msu.edu Fri Jun 3 10:53:35 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:53:35 -0400 Subject: Help collecting gear from west of Chicago Message-ID: <200506031553.j53FrZKV003784@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > The CPU is a PDP-11/44 with additional labels indicating it was a > Teradyne Teranet ATE Networking System, whatever that is. In addition > to the CPU, the tall cabinet (purple and orange DEC banner across the Whoa, dain bramage. That should read "purple and magenta". De From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 3 10:56:40 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:56:40 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A07DB8.7070203@atarimuseum.com> I have an much earlier version of SIO2PC which was done in-house within Atari by Dave Sheppard called ATIP to allow Atari 800's to connect to VAX's and transfer files to/from them for development work, if anyone would like a copy, it may be a step in the right direction to making something described below. Curt David Betz wrote: > I have a device that plugs into a serial port on a PC and looks like a > disk drive to an Atari 800. Is there such a thing for RT-11? It seems > like it should be possible to write a disk driver that uses a serial > port and some sort of serial protocol to communicate with a PC and > make RT-11 think it is accessing a local disk drive. Has anyone done > anything like that? I have a PDP-11/23 system that is taking up too > much space and I would like to replace it with a small QBus backplane > containing an 11/23 CPU, some memory and a multi-port serial card. I > would use one serial port as the console and another as the "disk" > connection back to a PC. Has this been done before? > > Another related question is what is the smallest QBus backplane > mounted in a box with a power supply that will support an 11/23 CPU > (M8186), a memory card (M8044) and a serial port/boot rom card (M8047) > and maybe a multi-port serial card (M8043)? > > Thanks! > David > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.5.2 - Release Date: 6/3/2005 From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 3 10:59:56 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 10:59:56 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <42A07E7C.2030100@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: > Including the monitor and the license fees for all the necessary bits > of software? And including someone to be its sysadmin? I'm certainly > not about to baby along a machine running closed-source software. See, now you're just trolling, because you run BSD (free, no license needed, has severl PDF readers to choose from). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 3 11:03:56 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:03:56 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: > Which of those "several open source packages" includes a scriptable > (ie, command-line) tool to extract the embedded images from a PDF? If you have a "need" for extracting images from PDF than you are missing the point of PDF. If you can view it and print it you have no need to extract images from it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 3 11:09:01 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:09:01 -0500 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <0506030203.AA00765@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0506030203.AA00765@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <42A0809D.8050809@oldskool.org> Michael Sokolov wrote: > There are very few things in the Universe that enrage me more than PDF > files that have been produced from PostScript with the original PS being > unavailable to me. PS reconstructed from PDF is never as good as the > original PS from which the PDF was made. What is your proof that the PDF was created from PS? Was the PS hand-edited by a person, or generated by a program? If the latter, I doubt the original PS will have "more" than the PDF. > The difference between PostScript and PDF is very much like that between > the source and binary forms of a program. Publishing PDF files while > withholding or discarding PS from which they were made is a crime Most PDFs I've created from PS source had that PS source generated by some other program. PS was just the intermediate transport. The "original PS" didn't exist since the *original* was really something else. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 3 11:11:02 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:11:02 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? References: <17056.31590.897861.483700@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17056.33046.100508.149679@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "David" == David Betz writes: David> Does the TU-58 use a standard RS-232 serial interface? Yes. David> Is the protocol defined somewhere? I haven't seen it, but some Googling turned up this note: Subject: Re: TU58 protocol (Was Re: Newbie question) To: Brian Murray <...> From: Anders Magnusson <...> List: port-vax Date: 10/30/1997 11:27:45 > > Does anyone have the specs for this protocol? If so, this opens up two > Yes, I have, it can also be found in the VAX Peripheral Handbook and called RSP (Radial Serial Protocol). It's _very_ simple. ----- paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 3 11:12:41 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:12:41 -0400 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <17056.33145.629272.658492@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Leonard writes: Jim> der Mouse wrote: >> Which of those "several open source packages" includes a >> scriptable (ie, command-line) tool to extract the embedded images >> from a PDF? Jim> If you have a "need" for extracting images from PDF than you are Jim> missing the point of PDF. If you can view it and print it you Jim> have no need to extract images from it. Not true. I've done an extract and re-insert on several PDF files, to clean up the scans with a graphics editor. paul From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 3 11:15:28 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:15:28 -0500 Subject: OT, but funny In-Reply-To: <200506030111.j531BCDF019457@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200506030111.j531BCDF019457@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <42A08220.5040900@oldskool.org> Brad Parker wrote: > Where's my stapler!!!??? "I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?" -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Fri Jun 3 11:21:55 2005 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:21:55 -0500 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation Message-ID: There is an ISO standard for PDF/X. An ISO standard for PDF/A has just been (or will soon be adopted). Message: 8 Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:42:21 +0000 From: Jules Richardson Subject: Re: Question about PDF manipulation To: cctalk at classiccmp.org But there is a question of whether conversion to PDF throws important data away, or whether Adobe might suddenly change the tools, or whether they'll carry on getting ever more bloated, or whether PDF's going to be a viable format in ten years time... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 3 11:26:57 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 16:26:57 +0000 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <1117813737.20286.100.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> <1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506030419.AAA12463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17056.26004.372451.328190@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1117809276.20268.93.camel@weka.localdomain> <003801c5684e$df654160$773cd7d1@randy> <1117813737.20286.100.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1117816017.20268.117.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 15:48 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > If the PDF spec's on Adobe's web site then I haven't been able to find > it yet... fount it at: http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/pdf/index_reference.html ... via google; any variation on "PDF specification" through Adobe's own website found nothing! Image XObject streams (section 4.8.4) seem to support an optional "Metadata stream" that appeared in version 1.4 of the PDF specification; prior to that metadata could only be attached to the doc as a whole, not to individual parts. It looks like what appears in the metadata stream is fairly tightly controlled though. What's missing is any defined way of saying what the original image was, and therefore how to either convert image metadata to PDF metadata format, or do the reverse when extracting image data back out of the PDF file. In both cases that'd be dependant on what the tools decided to do; image metadata preservation is totally up to the tools and nothing in the spec says where or how it should be preserved. I suppose that makes sense as far as Adobe are concerned; they consider PDF as an end format, and that nobody would ever want to actually deconstruct one into some other format. Likewise it's really beyond their scope to say how to convert metadata when pixel images are recoded to PDF's internal representation; as a group we'd likely have to come up with a code of conduct for that if PDF's the way forward. There is reference to an XMP "Extensible Metadata Platform" doc which I'll have to try and get hold of to see what that's all about.... No wonder there's some awful PDF tools out there; I'd never realised quite how complicated a format it is! cheers Jules From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 3 11:36:03 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:36:03 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy><200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy><200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000e01c56803$6a3b50f0$883cd7d1@randy> <200506030702.DAA13587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <003901c5685a$5557cd10$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "der Mouse" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 2:01 AM > > If you don't like PDF's I recommend that you start a monastery to > > copy by hand any documents you want archived. > > That's a rather peculiar suggestion. Now you have me curious - why > would you think that I'd consider hand copying the best of the > available non-PDF alternatives? > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Real simple: If you want to share via the internet a document where the value is in the information it contains and no longer have anything but printed sheets you can either retype the documents or scan them. Obviously people would normally want to use current technology in this case and scan them. Once you have scanned documents the question is how to keep them packaged. Obviously using the only currently recognized format makes sense. To not follow the path described shows a mindset that maintains monks transcribing manuscripts. Randy www-s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 3 11:49:04 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:49:04 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files References: Message-ID: <004101c5685c$269fbd50$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 2:33 AM > On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > Yes windows today is completely equivalent to the different OS's I've used > > on a variety of systems since I started in the mid 70's. The fact that > > Micro$loth has created a bloated giant that self destructs with time is a > > side issue. The open source equivalent Linux is also a bloated giant. > > Except that it rarely (if ever) self destructs with time. > > BIG difference. > > > If you don't like PDF's I recommend that you start a monastery to copy by > > hand any documents you want archived. > > Shave your head and buy a fricken robe while you're at it. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] Back in the early 70's I bought my mother a Microwave oven. Almost 15 years later she got rid of it because it wouldn't pop popcorn (too low a wattage). Since then she has gone through many Microwaves. Current technology may not hold up to the quality of classic technology but she could no longer do what she wanted to with her old Microwave. The old Microwave was passed on to my grandmother who used it until she died a few years later, no one knows what happened to it since as a lover of classic equipment I think that's a shame but it still couldn't pop popcorn :) Personally I probably would have kept the old one and bought a new one just to pop popcorn. The point is that sometimes it is OK to use newer technology even if the quality is crap. Windows and Linux are bloated monsters but I don't believe that deciding to use an 8080 based Altair to scan manuals to share on the internet doesn't make much sense. Buying a crap computer with a bloated OS will do the job and it is worth putting up with the crap to get the job done. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jun 3 12:10:41 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 13:10:41 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? Message-ID: <0IHI00EURQCSKWK3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? > >>>>>> "David" == David Betz writes: > > David> I have a device that plugs into a serial port on a PC and > David> looks like a disk drive to an Atari 800. Is there such a thing > David> for RT-11? It seems like it should be possible to write a disk > David> driver that uses a serial port and some sort of serial > David> protocol to communicate with a PC and make RT-11 think it is > David> accessing a local disk drive. > >You could make it look like a TU-58, which is a block structured >device. So RT11 should treat that like a disk. > Thats what the doctor ordered. I have one here, 11/23, 256k, 2serial in a BA11BV 4 slot box and a TU58 (the boxed version). Two drives 256k per drive and slower than slow (tape seeks take forever). A very compact PDP-11. I also have one, ba11 with 11/23, 32kW ram 2 serial and a RQDX3 that allows a hard disk and floppy. Thats fairly compact too. Allison From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Jun 3 12:16:21 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 05 17:16:21 GMT Subject: Question about PDF manipulation Message-ID: <0506031716.AA01785@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Jim Leonard wrote: > What is your proof that the PDF was created from PS? The Producer comment in the PDF. > Was the PS hand-edited by a person, or generated by a program? Doesn't matter. > If the latter, I doubt the original PS will have "more" than the PDF. It doesn't matter whether it has "more" or not. I just *want* the original PS. > Most PDFs I've created from PS source had that PS source generated by some > other program. PS was just the intermediate transport. Doesn't matter to me. Whether you wrote the PS by hand or generated it from another source, you have the PS. I want it. But you don't give it to me and instead apply an irreversible transformation to it. Anyway, I'm done with this thread. MS From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 3 12:20:54 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation Message-ID: <200506031720.KAA03406@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" > >On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 23:15 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: >> Does any TIFF file of the nature you describe actually exist? PDFs >> with both bitmaps and text are not uncommon. > >I'm not sure I've seen one, and I've dealt with a *lot* of TIFF files >over the years. > >Other metadata such as the app that created the image etc. is quite >common though, and I have a feeling that Photoshop puts in all sorts of >extra tags (I haven't got a copy here with which to check) > >Whether any such tags are useful to preserve is another matter. >Personally I like the accountability; I'd like to know who scanned a >document, when they scanned it, what software they used to do the scan. >Mainly because it may help at some future OCR stage in identifying ways >of improving the process or runs of documents that are likely to cause >trouble during the OCR phase. Plus of course it's nice to know who was >responsible for the hard work! > >cheers > >Jules Hi The biggest problem I think TIFF has is that it is really just a container and not truly a image format. From what I know, one can put just about any data stream into a TIFF. It need not be an image. When I said that I thought that a TIFF format was better for archiving I intended it to mean an non-compress scanned image thet is in a form that has little encoding. The TIFF allows all kinds of other things. I'm not saying they should be used. I astro imaging, one often uses TIFF's to contain several different color images to be processed later. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 3 12:26:25 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: <200506031726.KAA03410@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Rich Try things like "goof off" as well. I've used rubbing alcohol to remove marker from plastic in the past with reasonable results. If it has soaked into the surface, there is not much that will remove it. Dwight >From: "Cini, Richard" > >Dave: > > Interesting. I guess that I'll stop by Staples on the way home and >pick up a bottle of the whiteboard cleaner. I did ask the donator what the >story was with the blacked-out logo but I haven't heard from him yet. If he >used a Sharpie marker, I'm not sure that I can get that off without damaging >the plastic. Maybe WD40? > > Like I mentioned, Todd Fischer is selling new computer-generated >masks rather than the photomasks used originally. He claims that the >graphics are sharper and clearer than the original. I would keep the >original photomask in storage anyway. Seeing the logo is more important to >me than keeping the mask vintage. > >Rich > >============================= >Richard A. Cini, Jr. >Director >Wachovia Capital Finance >1133 Avenue of the Americas >New York, NY 10036 >W: 212-545-4402 >F: 212-545-4589 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield >Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 9:23 AM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: RE: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too > >>OK, I pulled the front panel appart tonight and I found out that whoever >>owned this model colored the silkscreen with magic marker. Bogus! >> >>Anyway, I can get a new photomask from Todd Fischer for $20. Well worth >>it. > >I was afraid of that ... Although it's good that you can get a replacement, >keeping it all original has merit as well - depending on the marker used, >you might be able to carefully remove it. Try a Q-tip with some whiteboard >cleaner and move up to stronger solutions as required. > >Regards, >Dave >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > From dholland at woh.rr.com Fri Jun 3 12:27:47 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 13:27:47 -0400 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <1117808955.20286.89.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17056.25859.279990.478296@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1117808955.20286.89.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42A09313.9080201@woh.rr.com> Jules Richardson wrote: >I'd disagree there - V7 eats up 100MB of disk space, and doesn't seem >any faster or better at rendering than V5 was (plus it takes a lot >longer to start up). > > V7 has the nifty ability for document authors to cause the document to "phone home" when its opened. http://lwn.net/Articles/129729/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 12:39:28 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:39:28 -0500 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: References: <17056.31590.897861.483700@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 6/3/05, David Betz wrote: > Does the TU-58 use a standard RS-232 serial interface? Yes. The TU58 drive is strappable, but 38Kbps is a standard speed. > Is the protocol defined somewhere? Yes... I know it's written up in several DEC manuals, some of which are probably on bitsavers. The basic protocol is called "Radial Serial Protocol" (RSP), but, I think, for newer implementations, like in the firmware of a VAX-11/750, there are some variations that, while documented, aren't as easy to find as the base documentation. It's ordinary to hook a real TU58 on a port of a DLJ11J... one can even use a straight-through 10-pin Berg cable - it's the same pinout (one of DEC's standards). It's also possible to emulate a TU58 on a modern PC, or to hook up a real TU58 to a modern machine to read tapes. I don't have my tools with me, but googling for TU58 and emulator will probably cough up something interesting. Media size is a bit of a problem - a real TU58 is kinda small, even compared to an 8" floppy. Speed isn't great - at least an emulated drive doesn't have seek delays, but transfer speed becomes the bottleneck. OTOH, there are drivers for RT-11, and it _is_ a simple device to emulate. If only it were a few megs in size, it would be adequate for quite a few applications. From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 3 12:57:56 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:57:56 -0500 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too References: <200506031726.KAA03410@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <002e01c56865$c56344d0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 12:26 PM > Hi Rich > Try things like "goof off" as well. I've used rubbing > alcohol to remove marker from plastic in the past with > reasonable results. If it has soaked into the surface, > there is not much that will remove it. > Dwight As I understand it the marker was on the white paper not the plastic. If so it is unlikely to remove the writing without damaging the paper. If it can not easily be removed and you want to store it where is doesn't get lost I would check to see how well it lines up with a new one from Todd and try to place the new one in front of the original keeping everything togather, maybe with a little note explaining why there are two sheets for future reference. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From richlist at sias.us Fri Jun 3 13:17:51 2005 From: richlist at sias.us (Rich Sias) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:17:51 -0400 Subject: Help collecting gear from west of Chicago In-Reply-To: <200506031435.j53EZAm5002197@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200506031435.j53EZAm5002197@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200506031818.j53IIDur071280@dewey.classiccmp.org> ** Reply to message from Dennis Boone on Fri, 03 Jun 2005 10:35:10 -0400 > The CPU is a PDP-11/44 with additional labels indicating it was a > Teradyne Teranet ATE Networking System, whatever that is. In addition > to the CPU, the tall cabinet (purple and orange DEC banner across the > top) contains a serial mux, a DEC battery backup, two RL02s, and an Wow you got a piece of a Teradyne test system! What a haul! I programmed the L210 and the L300 models. This may be an older one. Seems like you got the CPU and one of the peripherial cabinets. You missed out one the bed-of-nails test bed wtih all the vacum hoses and press down pull up etc mechanics. The Peripherial cab had voltage supplys, current supplys, digital multimeters, other test instruments, sig generators, etc. All were programmed and read by the CPU via the cross matrix switch. That bed-of-nails cabinet is larger than the old GSA iron desks from the 40's. Probably weighed 2-3 k lbs by itself. Rich From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jun 3 13:20:02 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:20:02 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: <20050603182001.XBHB5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> >OK, I pulled the front panel appart tonight and I found out that whoever >> >owned this model colored the silkscreen with magic marker. Bogus! >> > >> >Anyway, I can get a new photomask from Todd Fischer for $20. Well worth >> >it. >> >> I was afraid of that ... Although it's good that you can get a replacement, >> keeping it all original has merit as well - depending on the marker used, >> you might be able to carefully remove it. Try a Q-tip with some whiteboard >> cleaner and move up to stronger solutions as required. > >Oh for ****'s sake. > >How is cleaning off the ink any different from replacing the strip? You >just said, "keeping it all original has merit as well". I guess attacking >it with whiteboard cleaner is not considered a modification to the >original? I don't recall using the verb "attack" ... if he's lucky, the marker used was a soluable one, and it will clean up nicely with no damage to the original strip - if you can do that, then why not clean it up and keep it all original. As Rich noted in a later message, the replacement he can get is not identical to the original... Have you never cleaned up a computer that you really wanted to restore to original condition? >Like sane people do, note down the modification and keep the note with the >system (use a tagged string so you can tie the tag internally to keep Dave >happy). Put the original in a safe place (which is I'm sure what Rich >planned to do). Obviously any cleanup should be attempted with great care, and if it's not going to work, then by all means get the replacement, and keep the original in a safe place.... but that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least investigate restoring the original first. >Sheesh. Here we agree (although from different viewpoints :-) -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jun 3 13:20:09 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:20:09 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: <20050603182008.XBHQ5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >As I understand it the marker was on the white paper not the plastic. >If so it is unlikely to remove the writing without damaging the paper. If this is the case, then the fix is very easy - cut a strip of white paper the size needed to fit behing "IMSAI 8080" and place it on top of the damaged portion of the existing white paper - Once the screws are firmly in place, it will not move. I recall Rich saying the marker was on "the silkscreen" which I took to mean the transparent/coated film that covers the white paper and blocks out "everywhere that shouldn't be white" ... if this is the case then the marker has to come off, or the film be replaced. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 3 13:18:27 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <17056.26004.372451.328190@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> <1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506030419.AAA12463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17056.26004.372451.328190@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200506031821.OAA16556@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Worse, it is probably re-rendering the pixels, so [...] > Is that speculation or have you seen something that supports this > notion? Yes. (It was speculation, but with a basis.) Specifically, >>> "Image generated by ESP Ghostscript (device=pnmraw)" says to me that the extracted image was produced by rendering something into GhostScript's pnmraw output `device' (and then TIFFifying). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Fri Jun 3 13:20:56 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:20:56 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: <0IHI00EURQCSKWK3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IHI00EURQCSKWK3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <94801c6165f56675b7b6529f287be80e@xlisper.mv.com> Cool. Where do I get a BA11 4 slot box? It sounds like just what I need. Anyone have one they'd like to sell (or trade for an 11/23 and RX02 drive)? On Jun 3, 2005, at 1:10 PM, Allison wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? >> >>>>>>> "David" == David Betz writes: >> >> David> I have a device that plugs into a serial port on a PC and >> David> looks like a disk drive to an Atari 800. Is there such a thing >> David> for RT-11? It seems like it should be possible to write a disk >> David> driver that uses a serial port and some sort of serial >> David> protocol to communicate with a PC and make RT-11 think it is >> David> accessing a local disk drive. >> >> You could make it look like a TU-58, which is a block structured >> device. So RT11 should treat that like a disk. >> > > Thats what the doctor ordered. I have one here, 11/23, 256k, 2serial > in a BA11BV 4 slot box and a TU58 (the boxed version). Two drives > 256k per drive and slower than slow (tape seeks take forever). A > very compact PDP-11. I also have one, ba11 with 11/23, 32kW ram 2 > serial > and a RQDX3 that allows a hard disk and floppy. Thats fairly compact > too. > > > Allison > From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Jun 3 13:21:31 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:21:31 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: Actually, the back of the acetate was colored. The white paper is intact. Looks like isopropyl alcohol is the way to go at first. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Randy McLaughlin Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 1:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 12:26 PM > Hi Rich > Try things like "goof off" as well. I've used rubbing > alcohol to remove marker from plastic in the past with > reasonable results. If it has soaked into the surface, > there is not much that will remove it. > Dwight As I understand it the marker was on the white paper not the plastic. If so it is unlikely to remove the writing without damaging the paper. If it can not easily be removed and you want to store it where is doesn't get lost I would check to see how well it lines up with a new one from Todd and try to place the new one in front of the original keeping everything togather, maybe with a little note explaining why there are two sheets for future reference. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 3 13:26:05 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:26:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <1117813737.20286.100.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> <1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506030419.AAA12463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17056.26004.372451.328190@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1117809276.20268.93.camel@weka.localdomain> <003801c5684e$df654160$773cd7d1@randy> <1117813737.20286.100.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200506031828.OAA16633@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > If the PDF spec's on Adobe's web site then I haven't been able to > find it yet... As of 2005-01-30 I found http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/en/pdf/PDFReference16.pdf, and it was there when I checked sometime later this year (I don't have any record of that date). I note it's a PDF file, which makes for an amusing checken-and-egg problem in principle. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 3 13:28:43 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200506031829.OAA16651@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Which of those "several open source packages" includes a scriptable >> (ie, command-line) tool to extract the embedded images from a PDF? > If you have a "need" for extracting images from PDF than you are > missing the point of PDF. If you can view it and print it you have > no need to extract images from it. That's a nice-sounding theory, but it is wrong. You do not know better than I what I have need to do with PDFs. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 3 13:33:16 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 18:33:16 +0000 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <200506031720.KAA03406@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200506031720.KAA03406@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1117823596.20286.132.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 10:20 -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Jules Richardson" > > > >On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 23:15 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Does any TIFF file of the nature you describe actually exist? PDFs > >> with both bitmaps and text are not uncommon. > > > >I'm not sure I've seen one, and I've dealt with a *lot* of TIFF files > >over the years. > > > >Other metadata such as the app that created the image etc. is quite > >common though, and I have a feeling that Photoshop puts in all sorts of > >extra tags (I haven't got a copy here with which to check) > > > >Whether any such tags are useful to preserve is another matter. > >Personally I like the accountability; I'd like to know who scanned a > >document, when they scanned it, what software they used to do the scan. > >Mainly because it may help at some future OCR stage in identifying ways > >of improving the process or runs of documents that are likely to cause > >trouble during the OCR phase. Plus of course it's nice to know who was > >responsible for the hard work! > > > >cheers > > > >Jules > > Hi > The biggest problem I think TIFF has is that it is really just > a container and not truly a image format. From what I know, > one can put just about any data stream into a TIFF. Pretty much - it was geared around storing image data, but it's flexible enough to be able to store other things alongside the primary image content (and I suppose store *no* image content if someone wanted to do that). Much the same way that most document containers can store things (charts, images etc.) other than text, I suppose. > When I said that I thought that a TIFF format was better for > archiving I intended it to mean an non-compress scanned image > thet is in a form that has little encoding. Oh, so did I. I don't think I'd advocate that usage of TIFF either; I'd forsee people using it for page scans only, and hopefully settling on sensible settings that TIFF readers could handle. My observation was that conversion to PDF may well be throwing useful info away at present, as scanning apps / bitmap packages will typically put useful metadata- type info into a TIFF image that will get lost at the conversion point. Just because something is capable of doing all sorts of things doesn't mean that they should be used. At the end of the day it may be that PDF's the best choice (or best of a bad lot) - I've just not seen a discussion that compares all the options out there and weighs up the pros and cons (in the narrower context of paper documentation scanning I suppose, rather than the wider field of storing electronic documentation, which may typically have different goals) The thing not to do I guess is get bitten a few years down the line and find that you have terabytes of data that need to change format! cheers Jules From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Jun 3 13:43:07 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:43:07 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: I plan on trying to remove the marker from the back of the film with isoporpyl alcohol. My backup is that I can replace the film and I will store the old one in the packaging that the new one is sent in. The new film, although computer-generated, was derived from original photomask by Todd himself or by one of his team working with a local print shop. I'm pretty certain that it will be indistinguisnable from the original as it's being sold as a "new replacement part for the original IMSAI". For $20, it's worth it. I also plan on ordering the replacement 3/16" Plexiglas front for $8. The existing one is in great shape, but it can't hurt having a spare. The red filter looks to be in good shape. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 2:20 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too >> >OK, I pulled the front panel appart tonight and I found out that whoever >> >owned this model colored the silkscreen with magic marker. Bogus! >> > >> >Anyway, I can get a new photomask from Todd Fischer for $20. Well worth >> >it. >> >> I was afraid of that ... Although it's good that you can get a replacement, >> keeping it all original has merit as well - depending on the marker used, >> you might be able to carefully remove it. Try a Q-tip with some whiteboard >> cleaner and move up to stronger solutions as required. > >Oh for ****'s sake. > >How is cleaning off the ink any different from replacing the strip? You >just said, "keeping it all original has merit as well". I guess attacking >it with whiteboard cleaner is not considered a modification to the >original? I don't recall using the verb "attack" ... if he's lucky, the marker used was a soluable one, and it will clean up nicely with no damage to the original strip - if you can do that, then why not clean it up and keep it all original. As Rich noted in a later message, the replacement he can get is not identical to the original... Have you never cleaned up a computer that you really wanted to restore to original condition? >Like sane people do, note down the modification and keep the note with the >system (use a tagged string so you can tie the tag internally to keep Dave >happy). Put the original in a safe place (which is I'm sure what Rich >planned to do). Obviously any cleanup should be attempted with great care, and if it's not going to work, then by all means get the replacement, and keep the original in a safe place.... but that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least investigate restoring the original first. >Sheesh. Here we agree (although from different viewpoints :-) -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jun 3 13:54:02 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:54:02 -0500 Subject: HP 3000?? Thing-a-ma-jig available Message-ID: <000901c5686d$9c33c690$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> As part of another deal, I acquired a piece of HP gear I have no interest in (nor do I know for sure what it is). It's an HP 30151A or "ATP Expansion Package". It appears to have 24 modems in it, or serial ports at the least (I haven't popped the cover). Pictures of the unit are at: http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/hp30151A Can someone elicudate what this is and what it's designed to connect to? If it's nothing I can use... it's available for shipping costs. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jun 3 13:57:03 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:57:03 -0500 Subject: Heathkit floppy drive (H17) available Message-ID: <000d01c5686e$084b96f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I just acquired (another) Heathkit H-17 floppy drive, and lord knows I don't need any more of them. This appears to be a hard sector model with the older style drives in it. Pictures are available at: http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/hk17 It is untested, just as I got it. It is dusty, but in good condition and will clean up very nicely. Reasonable offers accepted, if there's no real interest I'll take it off to ebay. Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 3 13:56:58 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 18:56:58 +0000 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <42A09313.9080201@woh.rr.com> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17056.25859.279990.478296@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1117808955.20286.89.camel@weka.localdomain> <42A09313.9080201@woh.rr.com> Message-ID: <1117825018.20286.138.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 13:27 -0400, David Holland wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > >I'd disagree there - V7 eats up 100MB of disk space, and doesn't seem > >any faster or better at rendering than V5 was (plus it takes a lot > >longer to start up). > > > > > > V7 has the nifty ability for document authors to cause the document to > "phone home" when its opened. > > > > http://lwn.net/Articles/129729/ Wow. Well that's V7 gone off my machine anyway. I didn't realise Javascript was a "feature". I've got a web browser for that :-) V5.05 for linux took a while to find; it's here though (9MB download versus 37MB for V7): http://download.adobe.com/pub/adobe/acrobatreader/unix/5.x/linux- 505.tar.gz (watch out for the 'feature' if the install which changes ownership of the source parent directory - always install from a subdir and not straight from /tmp like I did once :) cheers Jules From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 3 14:02:37 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:02:37 -0500 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too References: Message-ID: <002d01c5686e$cef8f2c0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Cini, Richard" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 1:43 PM > I plan on trying to remove the marker from the back of the film with > isoporpyl alcohol. My backup is that I can replace the film and I will store > the old one in the packaging that the new one is sent in. > > The new film, although computer-generated, was derived from original > photomask by Todd himself or by one of his team working with a local print > shop. I'm pretty certain that it will be indistinguisnable from the original > as it's being sold as a "new replacement part for the original IMSAI". > > For $20, it's worth it. I also plan on ordering the replacement 3/16" > Plexiglas front for $8. The existing one is in great shape, but it can't > hurt having a spare. The red filter looks to be in good shape. It's great having Todd available, it's the only original S100 manufacturer I'm aware of with this level of support. The only other original S100 manufacturer doing any support is Alpha-Micro and I think the only support they have for their S100 customers is providing copies of manuals that are already available for download. It's nice that they don't just hang up on them. Cromemco is interested in having their old stuff on my site but they don't support the S100 stuff themselves. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From drb at msu.edu Fri Jun 3 14:28:39 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:28:39 -0400 Subject: Help collecting gear from west of Chicago Message-ID: <200506031928.j53JSdSu007829@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Wow you got a piece of a Teradyne test system! What a haul! > I programmed the L210 and the L300 models. This may be an older one. > Seems like you got the CPU and one of the peripherial cabinets. > You missed out one the bed-of-nails test bed wtih all the vacum hoses > and press down pull up etc mechanics. > The Peripherial cab had voltage supplys, current supplys, > digital multimeters, other test instruments, sig generators, etc. > All were programmed and read by the CPU via the cross matrix switch. > That bed-of-nails cabinet is larger than the old GSA iron desks from > the 40's. Probably weighed 2-3 k lbs by itself. Rich, Oh, nifty! I knew if I posted this, someone would recognize the non-PDP parts. I've never actually seen one of these systems in person, though I've known about them for years, and even met one or two guys who worked on them. I was wondering about the card in the Teradyne cage with all the driver transistors on it. The auction brochure (http://www.xlineassets.com/images/Xline%20Auction5_5_05.pdf) mentions a Teradyne Z1890VP ICT tester. I wonder if that's the part I didn't get? Thanks for speaking up. De From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 3 14:34:55 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:34:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <003901c5685a$5557cd10$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy><200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy><200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000e01c56803$6a3b50f0$883cd7d1@randy> <200506030702.DAA13587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <003901c5685a$5557cd10$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> Message-ID: <200506031942.PAA17325@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> If you don't like PDF's I recommend that you start a monastery to >>> copy by hand any documents you want archived. >> That's a rather peculiar suggestion. Now you have me curious - why >> would you think that I'd consider hand copying the best of the >> available non-PDF alternatives? > If you want to share via the internet a document where the value is > in the information it contains and no longer have anything but > printed sheets you can either retype the documents or scan them. There is a third alternative, that being to copy the paper documents directly onto paper, as a traditional photocopier does, and distribute the copies. > Obviously people would normally want to use current technology in > this case and scan them. Agreed. > Once you have scanned documents the question is how to keep them > packaged. Well, first there's the question of *whether* to keep them packaged, but I'll grant you this one. (There are some uses for scans of isolated pages or other small fractions of the whole document, but they're limited.) > Obviously using the only currently recognized format makes sense. And here we are at the crux of the matter: it appears you inhabit an alternative universe in which all the other methods of keeping page scans packaged have been forgotten. (What other methods? To name just three, (1) put the files in the same directory; (2) a zip file; (3) a tar file, optionally compressed.) Thank you. That cleared up my puzzlement effectively. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jun 3 14:43:30 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:43:30 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? Message-ID: <0IHI00CYOXFGFI74@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 12:39:28 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 6/3/05, David Betz wrote: >> Does the TU-58 use a standard RS-232 serial interface? > >Yes. The TU58 drive is strappable, but 38Kbps is a standard speed. > >> Is the protocol defined somewhere? > >Yes... I know it's written up in several DEC manuals, some of which >are probably on bitsavers. The basic protocol is called "Radial >Serial Protocol" (RSP), but, I think, for newer implementations, like >in the firmware of a VAX-11/750, there are some variations that, while >documented, aren't as easy to find as the base documentation. RSP and MRSP are stock firmware. But as you said it's poorly documented even in the EK-OTU58-TM-002 tech manual I have. >It's ordinary to hook a real TU58 on a port of a DLJ11J... one can >even use a straight-through 10-pin Berg cable - it's the same pinout >(one of DEC's standards). It's also possible to emulate a TU58 on a >modern PC, or to hook up a real TU58 to a modern machine to read >tapes. > >I don't have my tools with me, but googling for TU58 and emulator will >probably cough up something interesting. > >Media size is a bit of a problem - a real TU58 is kinda small, even >compared to an 8" floppy. Speed isn't great - at least an emulated >drive doesn't have seek delays, but transfer speed becomes the >bottleneck. At 256k per drive it's essentally an RX01 only slower. For RT11 thats a usable configuration. One trick to speed things up is if the CPU has enough ram (256k is enough and 1mb really works) is to run the RT11 VM: driver that's the virtual disk driver (ramdisk). Load it with a copy of everything then boot it then the tape/tu58 becomes seconday storage and you have more space. Makes using a TU58 much friendlier. The boot time for that is rather long. >OTOH, there are drivers for RT-11, and it _is_ a simple device to >emulate. If only it were a few megs in size, it would be adequate for >quite a few applications. There is a PC/DOS version that emulates a TU58 using the PC as a disk rather than tape. I think Bob at sparetime gizmos has the code but I could be wrong. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jun 3 14:52:51 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:52:51 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? Message-ID: <0IHI00ESOXV1KM24@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? > From: David Betz > Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:20:56 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Cool. Where do I get a BA11 4 slot box? It sounds like just what I >need. Anyone have one they'd like to sell (or trade for an 11/23 and >RX02 drive)? They are not very common, four slots were a tight fit to make a useable system. I have a one with a bad PS that I'm saving for repair parts for the good one. The one ugly fact was with all four slots filled with RAM and DLV11j plus CPU that meant every boot required entering by hand the TUboot. The alternate was CPU, two MXV11 one with TUboot rom. The nicest configuration is a BA23 deskside case as then you can put in a RQDX2/3 and have a floppy and a small (30mb) hard disk easily. Allison From lcourtney at mvista.com Fri Jun 3 14:54:31 2005 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:54:31 -0700 Subject: HP 3000?? Thing-a-ma-jig available In-Reply-To: <000901c5686d$9c33c690$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: Jay, I suspect this allows more expanded terminal connections to a classic (i.e. stack architecture) HP3000 beyond what you would normally have via an ATP. ATP is the hardware for serial terminal connections. On the Series 64/68/70 there was a bulkhead for this in the main CPU cabinet. Maybe this is for a Series 44/48/58? In any case only useful on larger classic 3000s. Stan Sieler might have more info. Lee Courtney MontaVista Software 1237 East Arques Avenue Sunnyvale, California 94085 (408) 328-9238 voice (408) 328-9204 fax Yahoo IM: charlesleecourtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 11:54 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: HP 3000?? Thing-a-ma-jig available > > > As part of another deal, I acquired a piece of HP gear I have no > interest in > (nor do I know for sure what it is). > > It's an HP 30151A or "ATP Expansion Package". It appears to have > 24 modems > in it, or serial ports at the least (I haven't popped the cover). > > Pictures of the unit are at: > http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/hp30151A > > Can someone elicudate what this is and what it's designed to > connect to? If > it's nothing I can use... it's available for shipping costs. > > Jay West > From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 3 14:57:15 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:57:15 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <17056.33145.629272.658492@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org> <17056.33145.629272.658492@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42A0B61B.3060703@oldskool.org> Paul Koning wrote: > Jim> If you have a "need" for extracting images from PDF than you are > Jim> missing the point of PDF. If you can view it and print it you > Jim> have no need to extract images from it. > > Not true. I've done an extract and re-insert on several PDF files, to > clean up the scans with a graphics editor. But that's not your domain/responsibility. The PDF should have been perfect by the time it got to you -- PDF is a final end-destination format. If the scans needed touching up, they shouldn't have made it into a PDF in the first place. I think the real "problem" people have here with PDF files is with *BAD* PDF files -- files created by people who were sloppy or didn't pay attention. I don't distribute something in PDF until I've cleaned it up AND OCR'd it so that the text is text and the pictures are pictures (and yes, I proofread the doc before I make it available). There's anothing wrong with PDF; blame the PDF creators. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Fri Jun 3 14:58:02 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:58:02 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: <0IHI00ESOXV1KM24@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IHI00ESOXV1KM24@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <5aee34649c27e3527762876b0c6d48d0@xlisper.mv.com> Or maybe I should just run simh... I'm not really a hardware guy anyway! On Jun 3, 2005, at 3:52 PM, Allison wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? >> From: David Betz >> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:20:56 -0400 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> >> Cool. Where do I get a BA11 4 slot box? It sounds like just what I >> need. Anyone have one they'd like to sell (or trade for an 11/23 and >> RX02 drive)? > > They are not very common, four slots were a tight fit to make a > useable system. I have a one with a bad PS that I'm saving for > repair parts for the good one. > > The one ugly fact was with all four slots filled with RAM and DLV11j > plus CPU that meant every boot required entering by hand the TUboot. > > The alternate was CPU, two MXV11 one with TUboot rom. > > The nicest configuration is a BA23 deskside case as then you can put > in a RQDX2/3 and have a floppy and a small (30mb) hard disk easily. > > Allison > From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 3 14:59:38 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:59:38 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy><200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy><200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000e01c56803$6a3b50f0$883cd7d1@randy><200506030702.DAA13587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><003901c5685a$5557cd10$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> <200506031942.PAA17325@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <005601c56876$c5c8d4b0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "der Mouse" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 2:34 PM > >>> If you don't like PDF's I recommend that you start a monastery to > >>> copy by hand any documents you want archived. > >> That's a rather peculiar suggestion. Now you have me curious - why > >> would you think that I'd consider hand copying the best of the > >> available non-PDF alternatives? > > If you want to share via the internet a document where the value is > > in the information it contains and no longer have anything but > > printed sheets you can either retype the documents or scan them. > > There is a third alternative, that being to copy the paper documents > directly onto paper, as a traditional photocopier does, and distribute > the copies. How do you share photocopied paper over the internet? > > Obviously people would normally want to use current technology in > > this case and scan them. > > Agreed. > > > Once you have scanned documents the question is how to keep them > > packaged. > > Well, first there's the question of *whether* to keep them packaged, > but I'll grant you this one. (There are some uses for scans of > isolated pages or other small fractions of the whole document, but > they're limited.) > > > Obviously using the only currently recognized format makes sense. > > And here we are at the crux of the matter: it appears you inhabit an > alternative universe in which all the other methods of keeping page > scans packaged have been forgotten. (What other methods? To name just > three, (1) put the files in the same directory; (2) a zip file; (3) a > tar file, optionally compressed.) > > Thank you. That cleared up my puzzlement effectively. There are only a very few methods that are currently accepted as packaged scanned documents. Only one method is considered universal, PDF's. By packing the image files in zip files much of the organization can be lost, PDF's organize the images and allow for "universal" support. Once the PDF package is created there is no question of order, size, viewer compatibility, text search where applicable, etc. > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Randy www.s100-manuals.com From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 3 15:00:44 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:00:44 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <200506031829.OAA16651@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org> <200506031829.OAA16651@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <42A0B6EC.9050604@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: >>If you have a "need" for extracting images from PDF than you are >>missing the point of PDF. If you can view it and print it you have >>no need to extract images from it. > > That's a nice-sounding theory, but it is wrong. > You do not know better than I what I have need to do with PDFs. See my previous message in response to Paul Koning. If you have to muck with a PDF then the PDF should never have been generated. PDF is an END format -- it is assumed that the information and graphics are perfect BEFORE creating it. If you have bad PDF files that you have a need to manipulate, blame the person who created the PDF, not the PDF format itself! What *is* your need to extract images out of PDF? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From vrs at msn.com Fri Jun 3 15:01:48 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:01:48 -0700 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com><8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com><35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202><17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de><17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de><1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain><200506030419.AAA12463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><17056.26004.372451.328190@gargle.gargle.HOWL><1117809276.20268.93.camel@weka.localdomain><003801c5684e$df654160$773cd7d1@randy><1117813737.20286.100.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506031828.OAA16633@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: From: "der Mouse" > As of 2005-01-30 I found > http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/en/pdf/PDFReference16.pdf, > and it was there when I checked sometime later this year (I don't > have any record of that date). > > I note it's a PDF file, which makes for an amusing checken-and-egg > problem in principle. :-) Even in practice, since the darned thing appears to be in PDF 1.6 format (which my Acrobat 4.0 doesn't seem able to read). Vince From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 3 12:42:50 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 18:42:50 +0100 Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:42:30 EDT." <17056.24134.492158.125404@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200506031742.SAA22532@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Paul Koning said: > Case in point: conventional flat screwdrivers, which have a wedge > shape. It's hard to find anything else, but well worth the trouble; > the conventional kind WILL destroy your screws. > > I no longer mind working with slotted screws ever since I inherited a > gunsmith screwdriver set. Those are vastly superior -- they come in a > lot more sizes so you can find a good fit, and the tip is > hollow-ground so the faces are parallel, not in a V shape. So the > screwdriver doesn't "cam out" as the hardware store type does. I have a Brownells (well known supplier of gunsmiths tools) set of handle and replaceable bits. Excellent quality and properly shaped tips, well worth the money. (They're left over from the days when I used to punch paper...) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 3 15:03:29 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:03:29 -0500 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <0506031716.AA01785@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0506031716.AA01785@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <42A0B791.9060104@oldskool.org> Michael Sokolov wrote: >>Was the PS hand-edited by a person, or generated by a program? > Doesn't matter. > >>If the latter, I doubt the original PS will have "more" than the PDF. > It doesn't matter whether it has "more" or not. I just *want* the > original PS. That's pretty ignorant. What is the logic behind your viewpoint? >>Most PDFs I've created from PS source had that PS source generated by some >>other program. PS was just the intermediate transport. > > Doesn't matter to me. Whether you wrote the PS by hand or generated it > from another source, you have the PS. I want it. But you don't give it > to me and instead apply an irreversible transformation to it. In the generated case, the PS *ITSELF* was an irreversable transformation of the source material! Shouldn't you be demanding the source material instead? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 3 15:05:56 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:05:56 -0500 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <200506031720.KAA03406@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200506031720.KAA03406@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <42A0B824.4060509@oldskool.org> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > The biggest problem I think TIFF has is that it is really just > a container and not truly a image format. From what I know, > one can put just about any data stream into a TIFF. It > need not be an image. EVERY "image format" is a container. What does it matter what the container is if it is well documented and supported? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From kth at srv.net Fri Jun 3 15:15:31 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:15:31 -0600 Subject: HP 3000?? Thing-a-ma-jig available In-Reply-To: <000901c5686d$9c33c690$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000901c5686d$9c33c690$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42A0BA63.5000905@srv.net> Jay West wrote: > As part of another deal, I acquired a piece of HP gear I have no > interest in (nor do I know for sure what it is). > > It's an HP 30151A or "ATP Expansion Package". It appears to have 24 > modems in it, or serial ports at the least (I haven't popped the cover). > > Pictures of the unit are at: > http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/hp30151A > With 25-pin connectors, I'd guess serial ports. They may have full modem control signals, but I don't think you have any modems internal to the unit. Unless this is where the RS-232 fed in, and you have RJ connectors on the other side. Modem ports would probably be a RJ connector, or screw terminals. I have seen some modems with a 9-pin connector (MultiTech rack mount). Some really old devices I used had 25 pin connectors, but this doesn't look as badly built as those were. > Can someone elicudate what this is and what it's designed to connect > to? If it's nothing I can use... it's available for shipping costs. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 3 15:06:45 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:06:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <42A0B6EC.9050604@oldskool.org> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org> <200506031829.OAA16651@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A0B6EC.9050604@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200506032019.QAA17660@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > If you have to muck with a PDF then the PDF should never have been > generated. And that is what I (and others) have been saying all along: please don't shove scans into a PDF! > PDF is an END format -- it is assumed that the information and > graphics are perfect BEFORE creating it. It thus assumes there will never be any reason to pull it apart. Even if the information *is* perfect, that is often false. > If you have bad PDF files that you have a need to manipulate, blame > the person who created the PDF, not the PDF format itself! That's exactly what we have been doing - or more precisely, we've been blaming those who chose PDF as the format for distributing documentation scans. Since no format will be perfect for all uses, choosing a packaging format which is designed around the assumption that the package will never be pulled apart is..broken. > What *is* your need to extract images out of PDF? Usually, to postprocess the page scan for better results, whatever "better" means at the moment in question. For example, a page scan may have a different white point on one side than the other, and I may want to remove that bias before printing. I may want to take a greyscale-scanned page and convert it to bilevel for printing (the printer's conversion, usually by dithering, will not always be the best for what I want). I may want to throw the scan at some OCR technology. I may even want to just look at it, or part of it, on-screen - if you think PDF displayers are always at least as good at displaying scanned page images as programs designed for image display, you have either an unrealistically good impression of PDF displayers or an unrealistically bad impression of image displayers. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jun 3 15:21:26 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:21:26 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <17056.25859.279990.478296@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17056.25859.279990.478296@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42A0BBC6.8050209@mdrconsult.com> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"der" == der Mouse writes: > > > >> PC's can run either open source or closed source OS's. > der> Does Acrobat run under any of the open-source ones? Is Acrobat > der> itself free (at least as-in-beer)? > > Yes, and yes. Adobe recently released an update of Acrobat for Linux > (for a long time they hadn't gone beyond V5; recently they released V7 > which I believe is the current version). I've used both on my Linux > (Fedora 1) system. Both work, though V7 is clearly better. That > includes some things I run into at work that other viewers don't > handle -- such as password-protected files. The big prob I've found with the Linux port of v7 is that you can't print multiple copies. I think it's one of Adobe's little nudges to buy the full version. Which of course doesn't exist.... Doc From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 3 15:23:41 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:23:41 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org><200506031829.OAA16651@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A0B6EC.9050604@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <00b801c5687a$21c032b0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Jim Leonard" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 3:00 PM > der Mouse wrote: >>>If you have a "need" for extracting images from PDF than you are >>>missing the point of PDF. If you can view it and print it you have >>>no need to extract images from it. >> >> That's a nice-sounding theory, but it is wrong. >> You do not know better than I what I have need to do with PDFs. > > See my previous message in response to Paul Koning. If you have to muck with a > PDF then the PDF should never have been generated. PDF is an END format -- it > is assumed that the information and graphics are perfect BEFORE creating it. > > If you have bad PDF files that you have a need to manipulate, blame the person > who created the PDF, not the PDF format itself! > > What *is* your need to extract images out of PDF? > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ Being a person to blame all of the PDF's I create are sloppy. I scan a document and I post it. It is my hope that other who have or want to take the time will clean them up and maybe OCR. If anyone creates an improved copy I will replace mine with it (so far no takers). I do not care is there are extra dots, lines left by paper edges, punch holes showing, pages slightly out of alignment, etc. If it bothers anyone they are welcome to fix it to their liking and if they wish return it to me. My desire is to create a useful document that other can use, I believe that sooner or later coputer technology will bring about an OCR program that will work right and they will be cleaned up then. I have gotten documents that I did want the text and have OCR'ed and proof read. It can take days to do it right, it only takes a fraction of the time to create a PDF that is "good nuff". To lookup jumper settings I don't care if I can see a line that is the edge of the paper. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 3 15:22:05 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 20:22:05 +0000 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <42A0B6EC.9050604@oldskool.org> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org> <200506031829.OAA16651@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A0B6EC.9050604@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1117830125.20268.163.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 15:00 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > What *is* your need to extract images out of PDF? Can't speak for der Mouse, but personally I find it easier to deal with seperate images than with a PDF file. I can use a wider variety of viewers on them depending what I want to do (including ones that give a thumbnail overview, just like a PDF viewer usually does), can manipulate them (scaling, colour correction, threshold etc.), manipulate from a script if needs be, print whichever images I need etc. All about flexibility really - you can do more with the seperate images than you can when they're wrapped up in a PDF file. At least that's my view :) I'm happy carrying on converting PDFs to seperate images for my own use if most people prefer them as PDF files! cheers Jules From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 3 15:33:22 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:33:22 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org><200506031829.OAA16651@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><42A0B6EC.9050604@oldskool.org> <200506032019.QAA17660@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <00cc01c5687b$7c31c5f0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "der Mouse" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 3:06 PM > > If you have to muck with a PDF then the PDF should never have been > > generated. > > And that is what I (and others) have been saying all along: please > don't shove scans into a PDF! > > > PDF is an END format -- it is assumed that the information and > > graphics are perfect BEFORE creating it. > > It thus assumes there will never be any reason to pull it apart. Even > if the information *is* perfect, that is often false. > > > If you have bad PDF files that you have a need to manipulate, blame > > the person who created the PDF, not the PDF format itself! > > That's exactly what we have been doing - or more precisely, we've been > blaming those who chose PDF as the format for distributing > documentation scans. > > Since no format will be perfect for all uses, choosing a packaging > format which is designed around the assumption that the package will > never be pulled apart is..broken. > > > What *is* your need to extract images out of PDF? > > Usually, to postprocess the page scan for better results, whatever > "better" means at the moment in question. > > For example, a page scan may have a different white point on one side > than the other, and I may want to remove that bias before printing. I > may want to take a greyscale-scanned page and convert it to bilevel for > printing (the printer's conversion, usually by dithering, will not > always be the best for what I want). I may want to throw the scan at > some OCR technology. I may even want to just look at it, or part of > it, on-screen - if you think PDF displayers are always at least as good > at displaying scanned page images as programs designed for image > display, you have either an unrealistically good impression of PDF > displayers or an unrealistically bad impression of image displayers. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Instead of blaming people like myself for doing it "the wrong way" why don't you do it and let us judge if we like it your way. If we like what you are doing better then we can all stop and let you do it all ;-) I'll set aside a few giga-bytes for all the manuals you scan. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 3 15:36:55 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 16:36:55 -0400 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <0506031716.AA01785@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0506031716.AA01785@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <42A0BF67.nailDKO1MHGPD@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> [PDF's] > Whether you wrote the PS by hand or generated it from another > source, you have the PS. I want it. But you don't give it to me > and instead apply an irreversible transformation to it. I'm all for keeping documents in their original source. And postscript is nominally human-readable source. (Although much machine generated postscript is garbage.) But there are great tools for dealing with PDF's at a very human- grokkable abstraction, both in creation and in picking-them-apart. My favorite is the CPAN module PDF::API2, which is a joy to use. It is certainly a lot more fun to pick apart machine-generated PDF with PDF::API2 than to pick apart machine-generated postscript using any tool. For those on the "document front", you gotta see SVG. It's way more fun than either postscript of PDF, and those are a gas to play with on their own. Take the best of HTML/the web, the best of postscript, and the best of Java and the best of XML, and you have SVG. (I do admit that I still despise HTML, Java, and XML as they stand alone. It's their combination in SVG that really rocks!) Tim. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 3 15:47:59 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:47:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <005601c56876$c5c8d4b0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy><200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy><200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000e01c56803$6a3b50f0$883cd7d1@randy><200506030702.DAA13587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><003901c5685a$5557cd10$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> <200506031942.PAA17325@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <005601c56876$c5c8d4b0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> Message-ID: <200506032058.QAA17939@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> If you want to share via the internet a document [...] >> [...photocopies...] > How do you share photocopied paper over the internet? That's true, I extended what you wrote to sharing documents in general, rather than demanding that the sharing take place over the Internet. That was sloppy of me, and thank you for calling me on it. > There are only a very few methods that are currently accepted as > packaged scanned documents. Only one method is considered universal, > PDF's. I think we have good evidence in this very thread that PDFs *aren't* universal. (I don't doubt they are considered universal by some people; those people are wrong. I'd even go so far as to say that anyone who considers *any* format as universal is, strictly, wrong - there probably are a few people who can't do anything useful with even as widely supported a format as plain text.) Your use of the passive voice is clever. You are hiding a great deal with it, but I'm not going to let you get away with it. Specifically, > are currently accepted as > is considered universal By whom? I listed three alternative packagings; you have given no evidence to support your implicit claim that they are not accepted or that they are not considered universal - claims that are impossible to refute because you have not specified by whom they are putatively "accepted" or "considered". Presumably you will claim existence proofs by example, most likely with yourself as the example, in that you do not accept other packagings, and you do consider PDFs universal - but so what? You may be willing to use yourself as the touchstone of format approval, but I doubt very many other people will. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 3 16:08:41 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <00cc01c5687b$7c31c5f0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org><200506031829.OAA16651@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><42A0B6EC.9050604@oldskool.org> <200506032019.QAA17660@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00cc01c5687b$7c31c5f0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> Message-ID: <200506032122.RAA18283@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [...] > Instead of blaming people like myself for doing it "the wrong way" > why don't you do it and let us judge if we like it your way. ...and all of a sudden instead of discussing PDF's actual merits or lack thereof, you shift to discussing whether it's popular. > If we like what you are doing better then we can all stop and let you > do it all ;-) I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd rather have PDFs tha nothing. Documentation in a difficult-to-use format is better than no documentation at all. But if we're discussing the pros and cons of various formats, then it *is* appropriate to criticize brokennesses in the formats under discussion. > I'll set aside a few giga-bytes for all the manuals you scan. Only one, so far, and the directory full of bzip2ed scan files is only some 42 megs - and that includes the duplicates for the pages I scanned in greyscale and/or colour as well as lineart. ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/misc/EK-KA630-UG-001/ in case you're curious. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jun 3 16:26:15 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:26:15 -0500 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: References: <17056.31590.897861.483700@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200506031626.15771.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 03 June 2005 10:49, David Betz wrote: > Does the TU-58 use a standard RS-232 serial interface? Is the > protocol defined somewhere? > > Thanks, > David Take a look at VTserver: http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl/vtserver.htm Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Fri Jun 3 16:45:44 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:45:44 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: <200506031626.15771.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <17056.31590.897861.483700@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200506031626.15771.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <29a0a8886d35b35d72ed8fa0edb6b2e3@xlisper.mv.com> Cool. Thanks! I wonder if it can boot RT-11? On Jun 3, 2005, at 5:26 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 03 June 2005 10:49, David Betz wrote: >> Does the TU-58 use a standard RS-232 serial interface? Is the >> protocol defined somewhere? >> >> Thanks, >> David > > Take a look at VTserver: > http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl/vtserver.htm > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 3 16:53:03 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation Message-ID: <200506032153.OAA03540@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jim Leonard" > >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> The biggest problem I think TIFF has is that it is really just >> a container and not truly a image format. From what I know, >> one can put just about any data stream into a TIFF. It >> need not be an image. > >EVERY "image format" is a container. Hi True but what I meant by that was that it might be a stream of single dimensional data from a spectrograph or 3 dimensional data form a seismograph. Not necessarily a picture in the normal sense of what a jpg is but still an image. Dwight > >What does it matter what the container is if it is well documented and supported? >-- >Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ >Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ >Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 3 17:07:42 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 23:07:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: der Mouse "Re: Screw Drivers and PDF Files" (Jun 3, 14:28) References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org> <200506031829.OAA16651@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <10506032307.ZM17264@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 3 2005, 14:28, der Mouse wrote: > >> Which of those "several open source packages" includes a scriptable > >> (ie, command-line) tool to extract the embedded images from a PDF? > > If you have a "need" for extracting images from PDF than you are > > missing the point of PDF. If you can view it and print it you have > > no need to extract images from it. > > That's a nice-sounding theory, but it is wrong. And incomplete. What about a PDF that I need to use some distance from my computer, but is not printable? What about the case where a PDF contains more than one document that you want to store and index separately? What about a badly-scanned document that needs some fixing? > You do not know better than I what I have need to do with PDFs. Agreed :-) It's all very easy to say it should have been created properly in the first place. Life's not like that; things are not perfect. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 17:21:54 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:21:54 -0500 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: <29a0a8886d35b35d72ed8fa0edb6b2e3@xlisper.mv.com> References: <17056.31590.897861.483700@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200506031626.15771.pat@computer-refuge.org> <29a0a8886d35b35d72ed8fa0edb6b2e3@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: On 6/3/05, David Betz wrote: > Cool. Thanks! I wonder if it can boot RT-11? I don't know if VTserver is the right thing for booting RT-11. Certainly, the amount of systems resources (memory/disk) for RT-11 is _vastly_ less than what it required for most flavors of PDP-11 UNIX. I used to make my living doing software dev on a KDF11 w/64KB of RAM and an RL01 (5MB), a system I wouldn't even try to load, say, 2.9BSD on. If one has 256KB, then VTserver might be an option (it's kinda large, but then it runs on machines that already have that much RAM for the OS), but on a minimal system, it probably won't fit. OTOH, if you run across a TU58 emulator you like, with the right boot ROMs, a PDP-11 _will_ boot RT-11 off of TU58. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 17:52:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 23:52:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fa In-Reply-To: <20050603003458.KXWS16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Jun 2, 5 08:36:57 pm Message-ID: > > That was my thought, too. I've seen good sets that have TX6, 7, 8, 9, 10, > > 15 and up, and I think there's such a thing as a TX12, tho I've never seen > > one in captivity. ;-) > > > > I've seen modern hard drives use both TX6 and 8. > > > > "Merch" > > T1 torx exists. Take the IBM thinkpad 701 series thinkpad I've seen TX1 and TX2 in the Microtools catalogue, I intend to order them some day soon Currently I've got them down to TX3 in the toolbos TX6 is fairly common. It's the size used for the case screws in the HP71B, for example. What are not common are tamperproof Torx below TX10. I think I have the TX8 one somewhere too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 17:53:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 23:53:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 2, 5 11:42:03 pm Message-ID: > Why can't you use a DB26 with just 16 pins wired (and 16 way cable)? I actually meant DB25 here, but DA26 would do as well :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 18:29:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:29:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <1117798096.20286.15.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 3, 5 11:28:16 am Message-ID: > > On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 23:36 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > > Does anyone have the pinouts of the Nascom 2 keyboard connector handy? > > > > Yes. I have the Nascom 2 manual in front of me. From waht I can see, the > > keybaord came as an assembled unit, and there's no schematic in the > > manual for that. But the pinouts of the connector are there, here you are > > ta... nice to confirm it's not in the manual anyway. I think I'll trace > out the keyboard schematic and see what the reset line does. If it's not My Nascom is almost impossible to get to at the moment, can you remind me as to what chips are on the keyboard? I am going to guess at at least one TTL decoder chip, and maybe not a lot else. I did find my schematic for the Gemini keyboard last night (this is a much larger system using the same NASbus pinout, etc). It is, alas, very different, the Gemini keyboard has a microcontroller in it, and seems to send ASCII to the rest of the machine. > needed by the keyboard itself, I'll move it to the CPU chassis and use > DA15's for the keyboard. > > If it is needed, I'll have to go the DB25 route. I did wonder about DA26 > connectors, but I'm not sure if those were about when the Nascom 2 was > current (I'm trying to use period bits for everything). Plus I don't Strange comment, based on your attitude to the 5155 :-) > think I have any in the junk box anyway... > > Cutting out the right shaped holes in aluminium for these connectors is > a right pain in the butt, so I don't want to have to do it more than > once ;) RS do some very expensive hole punches for the D-series connectors. They're a bit like the good old Q-max cutters (now that is showing my age [1]). If the aluminium is not too thick, they do a lovely job, though. I do have the DB-size one in my toolkit, but none of the others. If you are desparate (and if we can find a way to meet up...) I could punch a DB-size hole for you. [1] The first 3 I ever bought, over 25 years ago, were 5/8", 3/4" and 1+1/8". Why? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 18:31:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:31:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050603080941.046586e0@mail> from "John Foust" at Jun 3, 5 08:10:43 am Message-ID: > Apparently it's OK to spend $200 on a nice set of wrenches, but not > OK to scrounge a contemporary PC to read contemporary documentation > containers. The difference being that the set of spanners doesn't need desk space to use it, doesn't need maintiaing [1]. and is likely to outlast me. [1] I have neither the skill nor the test gear to maintain a modern PC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 18:04:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:04:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <006601c567d0$4a552640$4992d6d1@randy> from "Randy McLaughlin" at Jun 2, 5 07:07:48 pm Message-ID: > I have plenty of S100 memory boards that would take more than a day to > figure out without a manual. Many boards use programmable logic devices To be brutal, you have no idea how long it would take me to work it out. Not having worked on an S100 system for some years, the first one would take me a fair time (becuase I'd be forever looking up the pinouts, etc), the second one would go a lot quicker... > where you can't tell what they do by looking at them. I have several > MacroTech RAM cards that would take days to figure out but only take minutes > with a manual (they have around 30 jumpers spread around the boards). But if that manual takes a couple of days to print out, it may not be worth it. particularly if that manual _doesn't_ contain real technical info like schematics. If I worked out the details for myself, I would end up with full schematics. > > The point to a PDF document is that for almost everyone with a computer on > this planet they can view the document on the screen. > > PDF's being posted by people like myself is not meant to please everyone, I > am happy knowing I help some. True enough, and I am sorry if my message came over as a flame aimed at those who spend a lot of their time sharing manuals. I _am_ very grateful for bitsavers and similar sites, I do make use of them. Practically, I have 4 choices : 1) Get somebody else to provide a machine to download/print the manual. Either in an internet cafe, or by asking a friend to burn it onto a CD-ROM in exchange for me doing some repairs for them. 2) Obtain the manual some other way, e.g. by buying a paper original 3) Finding some way to download/print it myself. Unlikely to be practical (if only becuase of the download time, and because I am nowhere near a good enough programmer to write pdf viewer/printer), but you never know 4) Manage without the manual and figure out the info for myself. Which I do depends on the manual, the product, how much I already know about it, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 18:33:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:33:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <17056.24710.647087.757760@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Jun 3, 5 09:52:06 am Message-ID: > You can get several perfectly functional readers for zero dollars, > including open source ones. Not with the hardware to run it on... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 18:07:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:07:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> from "Michael Holley" at Jun 2, 5 06:10:19 pm Message-ID: > You are making life difficult if to don't have a tool for reading PDF files. > I think you can buy a nice one for a few hundred dollars. What, including a printer? Including a high-speed internet connection? Including a house extension to put it in (I do not have room for any more PC-sized machines set up, or any more monitors). Including proper documentation? Including the test gear needed to keep it running for as long as I need it? No, I thought not.... Anyway I don't have a 'few hundred dollars' spare. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 18:39:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:39:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help collecting gear from west of Chicago In-Reply-To: <200506031435.j53EZAm5002197@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Jun 3, 5 10:35:10 am Message-ID: > Teradyne-built items; I don't recognize the bus -- two edge connectors, > each wider than qbus. It doesn't look like the unibus cards I've seen. Unibus and Qbus use the same double-sided 36 pin (18 pin per side) 0.125" pitch connectors. Q bus boards are normally dual or quad, Unibus are normally quad or hrx. (The converse is not true. A quad board could be just about anything, the 11/44 CPU boards are hex height, but must go into the right slots, not just into any Unibus slot, etc) > > The first small cabinet (9764, I think?) contains three RA81 drives; > one is labeled 'bad hda'. I hope you locked the positioners on those drives (white lever on top of the HDA) before moving them, otherwise you have 3 bad HDAs now. > I haven't had the CPU out on its rails yet, so I don't know what's > inside. I'm going to have to work on power outlets before I can > even try to run this beast. (And yes, I intend to look through the > archives for tips on proper pre- and first-power-up etiquette before I > blow anything up) The 11/44 PSU is the second most complicated I've ever worked on (it was the most complicated until I worked on an HP9845..) It's also got some lethal features, like 400V DC, straight from the mains, on barrier strip terminals inside. Please ask here (or me directly) before diving inside the PSU. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 18:13:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:13:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jun 3, 5 00:28:31 am Message-ID: > > >> You are making life difficult if to don't have a tool for reading > >> PDF files. I think you can buy a nice one for a few hundred > >> dollars. > > You can buy a used PC for tens of dollars. > > Including the monitor and the license fees for all the necessary bits > of software? And including someone to be its sysadmin? I'm certainly > not about to baby along a machine running closed-source software. And inclduing somebody to maintain the hardware? I sure as hell am not going to try to maintain any machine that doesn't have full schematics available, and I do not intend to try reverse-engineering a modern PC that's full of undocumented ASICs in BGA packages that I can't probe the connections of. You like open-soruce software. So do I (well, having the source available is enough, even if it's not open in the FSF sense [1]). I also want my hardware to be as well docuemtned. [1] For example, I bought (second hand) the HP71 IDS manuals. Volume 3 is a complete commented source of the system ROM. It's not 'open' in the FSF sense, in that it's copyrighted by HP and you can reproduce it, or sell products containing it, or... but I do have the source code to hand if I want to understand how something works, or where a system variable is stored, or... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 18:44:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:44:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: from "David Betz" at Jun 3, 5 11:40:44 am Message-ID: > > I have a device that plugs into a serial port on a PC and looks like a > disk drive to an Atari 800. Is there such a thing for RT-11? It seems > like it should be possible to write a disk driver that uses a serial > port and some sort of serial protocol to communicate with a PC and make > RT-11 think it is accessing a local disk drive. Has anyone done If you'll accept it emulating a tape drive, make it emulate the TU58. That has an asynchornous host interface (which is trivial to turn into RS232), and a fairly simple protocol which is documented in the user manual IIRC. The TU58 is a block-structured device, so it is pretty similar to a (very slow) disk to the software. There must be an RT11 driver for it (DD.SYS?) I think there used to be unix-based software to emulate a TU58 (so that a PDP11 conneccted to a serial port on the unix machine thought it had a TU58 connected). It must still be around somewhere. > Another related question is what is the smallest QBus backplane mounted > in a box with a power supply that will support an 11/23 CPU (M8186), a > memory card (M8044) and a serial port/boot rom card (M8047) and maybe a > multi-port serial card (M8043)? A BA11-V. It's tiny -- a dual-hight 4 slot backplane alongside a little PSU. I think it supports Q18 (which is what you need for the 11/23), but if not it should be trivial to wire-wrap. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 18:17:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:17:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jun 3, 5 00:49:05 am Message-ID: > > I don't know of any classic computer that came out with open source > > DOS's (but a few open source monitors). > > ...so? None of my machines, classic or not, run the OS they came with > (if any); I'm here for the hardware, not the software, side of things. To me, it doesn't matter if they were open-source back then, what matters if whether I can get the source _now_. I have the source for the linux distribution on this PC (Duh...). I have the LS-DOS source for my TRS-80 Model 4. I have most of the POS source for my PERQs (and I think there's more on bitsavers I must look into sometime). Heck, I even have the source listings for the 3 _calculators_ I use the most (HP41, HP71, HP75). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 18:46:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:46:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jun 3, 5 11:03:56 am Message-ID: > > der Mouse wrote: > > Which of those "several open source packages" includes a scriptable > > (ie, command-line) tool to extract the embedded images from a PDF? > > If you have a "need" for extracting images from PDF than you are missing the Who can you possibly know what he wants to do with this file? > point of PDF. If you can view it and print it you have no need to extract > images from it. While it may be true that this is 'not the point of PDF', the very fact that he needs to do it suggests that pdf is not the right file format to use for distributing such collections of images. But if that's the format that's used, you have to find some way to hack it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 18:09:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:09:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: <003001c567e1$7c79d970$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> from "Richard A. Cini" at Jun 2, 5 10:11:00 pm Message-ID: > > > OK, I pulled the front panel appart tonight and I found out that whoever > owned this model colored the silkscreen with magic marker. Bogus! Try wiping it with propan-2-ol. That will remove most 'magic markers' and may well not damage the original printing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 18:22:30 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 00:22:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <000e01c56803$6a3b50f0$883cd7d1@randy> from "Randy McLaughlin" at Jun 3, 5 01:13:46 am Message-ID: > To decide to not use any particular piece of hardware or software that can > easily and cheaply do a desired job then whine because other people don't > bend over backwards to support your wishes for no charge is idiotic. OK, I am an idiot. You are not the first person to call me that, you won't be the last. IU would agree it's rude to flame somebody because they've not used your particular choice of file formats (particularly when their choice is commonplace and youts isn't), but IMHO it's not idiotic to decide to do a job in a particular way because it's what you consider to be the way you most enjoy. Particularly when that job is part of a hobby, which you're doing for your own enjoyment anyway. If I decide it's prefereable to produce my own documentation rather than do battle with a modern PC, that's my business. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 19:14:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 01:14:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <005601c56876$c5c8d4b0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> from "Randy McLaughlin" at Jun 3, 5 02:59:38 pm Message-ID: > > There is a third alternative, that being to copy the paper documents > > directly onto paper, as a traditional photocopier does, and distribute > > the copies. > > How do you share photocopied paper over the internet? You don't. You use this wonderful invention called snail-mail, which for me is certainly cheaper and probably quicker than downloading a pdf file. > > And here we are at the crux of the matter: it appears you inhabit an > > alternative universe in which all the other methods of keeping page > > scans packaged have been forgotten. (What other methods? To name just > > three, (1) put the files in the same directory; (2) a zip file; (3) a > > tar file, optionally compressed.) > > > > Thank you. That cleared up my puzzlement effectively. > > There are only a very few methods that are currently accepted as packaged > scanned documents. Only one method is considered universal, PDF's. In your opinion. Actually, it doesn't matter if a format is considered to be universal, only that both sender and receiver agree on it. > > By packing the image files in zip files much of the organization can be > lost, PDF's organize the images and allow for "universal" support. Once the > PDF package is created there is no question of order, size, viewer You seem to think this is a good thing. I don't. Many times I've rearranged the sections of a paper document, added extra pages (with my own notes), and the like. I don't see why not being able to do this to a pdf file is a Good Thing. > compatibility, text search where applicable, etc. Anyway, once a pdf file is printed out, much of this is lost. And printing is about all you can do with a file of scanned images. -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jun 3 19:49:56 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:49:56 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <10506032307.ZM17264@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org> <200506031829.OAA16651@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <10506032307.ZM17264@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <42A0FAB4.5060809@oldskool.org> Pete Turnbull wrote: > What about a PDF that I need to use some distance from > my computer, but is not printable? In what situation would a PDF not be printable? I don't get your point. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Jun 3 20:19:38 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 21:19:38 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: <003001c567e1$7c79d970$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <003001c567e1$7c79d970$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <42A101AA.nailFIA1TF69M@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > OK, I pulled the front panel apart tonight and I found out that > whoever owned this model colored the silkscreen with magic marker. > Bogus! > Anyway, I can get a new photomask from Todd Fischer for $20. > Well worth it. My IMSAI manual came with a paper copy of the photomask for users to customize with whatever legends they wanted. It recommended that you take the resulting artwork to a local repro shop and have them make a transparency from it. Of course, in 2005, we have new technologies for doing this. Note that some resellers replaced the "IMSAI" logo on the artwork with their own (like Cromemco's rebadged IMSAI, but there were many others.) Tim. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 3 20:37:05 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 18:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help collecting gear from west of Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <200506031435.j53EZAm5002197@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Jun 3, 5 10:35:10 am Message-ID: <38174.207.145.53.202.1117849025.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tony wrote: > Unibus and Qbus use the same double-sided 36 pin (18 pin per side) 0.125" > pitch connectors. Q bus boards are normally dual or quad, Unibus are > normally quad or hrx. To be overly pedantic: Unibus boards are normally dual. The only real Unibus boards you're likely to find are the terminators and bus jumpers. If someone tries to tell you that a quad or hex board is a Unibus board, they're almost certainly mistaken, and it is probably really an SPC or MUD/SPC board. Normally the only Unibus slots in a PDP-11 backplane are the A-B positions of the first and last slots, though there are exceptions to that in various places such as the PDP-11/45 and RH11 backplanes. SPC ("Small Peripheral Controller") boards are quad or hex. MUD/SPC ("Modified Unibus Device") boards are hex. SPC and MUD/SPC boards are commonly but incorrectly called Unibus boards, but they will not work correctly in a Unibus slot (and technically they won't even fit). Extended Unibus slots are found only in the PDP-11/24 and PDP-11/44 processor backplanes and are only used for MS11-M (M8722) and MS11-P (M8743) memory boards or third-party equivalents. In some backplanes, one or both Unibus slots (in the first or last position) are colinear with an SPC slot. Do NOT try to use a hex SPC or SPC/MUD board in that slot. Because PDP-11 systems have quite a variety of different slot assignments, and even conflicts regarding voltages (15V for core, 12V for semiconductor memory), people maintaining PDP-11 systems actually need to understand this stuff. Eric From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 3 20:46:04 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:46:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <42A0FAB4.5060809@oldskool.org> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org> <200506031829.OAA16651@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <10506032307.ZM17264@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42A0FAB4.5060809@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200506040151.VAA19507@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> What about a PDF that I need to use some distance from my computer, >> but is not printable? > In what situation would a PDF not be printable? I don't get your > point. I didn't write that, but I did, not so very long ago, run into a PDF that was not printable. Upon converting to PostScript (my printer doesn't grok PDF), it included a call to colorimage or whatever the operator is for rendering colour images, and my printer errored out on it. Of course, this didn't make it totally impossible to print. I could have coaxed ghostscript into rendering it into a ppm file, massaged it into pgm or pbm, and then printed that. But it certainly did raise the effort bar far enough that I either abandoned the task or used other approaches, I can't recall which. (There is very little that is truly impossible in computers with application of sufficient effort, ingenuity, and patience....) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 3 21:56:35 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 19:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050603195506.V10186@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Why can't you use a DB26 with just 16 pins wired (and 16 way cable)? > I actually meant DB25 here, but DA26 would do as well :-) a DB25 with 16 pins wired would be a DB16 :-) From ohh at drizzle.com Sat Jun 4 00:38:47 2005 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 22:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help collecting gear from west of Chicago In-Reply-To: <200506031435.j53EZAm5002197@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: Dennis Boone wrote of a PDP-11, in part: > I ended up hiring a commercial pack/ship outfit to get this home, > and it was delivered yesterday -- 2199 pounds. Just curious: what company did you use, and (if you don't mind my asking) what was the cost like? -O.- From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 4 01:15:51 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 07:15:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files Message-ID: <20050604061551.51461.qmail@web25002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > In what situation would a PDF not be printable? If the author has set the security on the file to not allow printing then Adobe reader, and even the full Adobe acrobat, will not print the file. Other tools may though. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From technobug at comcast.net Sat Jun 4 01:18:05 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 23:18:05 -0700 Subject: Rescued Items In-Reply-To: <200506040154.j541sNHO078383@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506040154.j541sNHO078383@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <94A73D0E-8538-4D08-A664-E9A7829E2A0E@comcast.net> While on a rescue mission this PM, I pulled out of a pile of boards destined for the gold merchant the following: DEC KDF11 Module M8186 TI 9900 Boards: TM990/101MA CPU Board TM990/314 ? (has a DB25 and an edge connector - serial?) First takes choice at $2 per board plus shipping. CRC From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jun 4 02:17:23 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 08:17:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: Jim Leonard "Re: Screw Drivers and PDF Files" (Jun 3, 19:49) References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org> <200506031829.OAA16651@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <10506032307.ZM17264@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42A0FAB4.5060809@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <10506040817.ZM18069@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 3 2005, 19:49, Jim Leonard wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > What about a PDF that I need to use some distance from > > my computer, but is not printable? > > In what situation would a PDF not be printable? I don't get your point. When the creator locked it so that the standard Adobe reader can't print it. I've come across two or three that are protected in this way. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Jun 4 02:53:12 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:53:12 +0200 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <1117823596.20286.132.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200506031720.KAA03406@clulw009.amd.com> <1117823596.20286.132.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050604075312.GT29043@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2005-06-03 18:33:16 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > The thing not to do I guess is get bitten a few years down the line and > find that you have terabytes of data that need to change format! This is what I actually don't care for at all. Even while handling large amounts of data may be quite hard on old machines, it's not really a problem as of today anymore. Costs for storage are falling like never ever before. And storing/keeping a base format and shipping a "consumer-friendly" format are two totally different to me. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Jun 4 03:05:02 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 10:05:02 +0200 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <005601c56876$c5c8d4b0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> Message-ID: <20050604080502.GU29043@lug-owl.de> On Sat, 2005-06-04 01:14:10 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > There are only a very few methods that are currently accepted as packaged > > scanned documents. Only one method is considered universal, PDF's. > > In your opinion. Actually, it doesn't matter if a format is considered to > be universal, only that both sender and receiver agree on it. That's not the point. With classic computers, we've seen clever technologies showing up and getting lost again. Being a German guy, I just remember *very well* that there are a lot of tapes that are basically lost forever because after the reunification of our both Germanies, alot of hardware and software was just thrown away (because the GDR models just weren't "up to date". So the point is to *preserve* hard hand-made work in an easy accessible format that can easily be transcoded to what's considered state of the art at a given time. The problem with preserving content isn't three-dimensional, but a four-dimensional one. That's why I don't think in only preserving scanned pages, but also in eg. preserving tape contents, disk contents, CD/DVD contents, ... So it's about * getting the data off the media (and be it paper), hopefully in the lowest-level format allowed by it. * storing the data in a well-known format which is fully understood and documented. * At any time, add filters from the initially read-out format to what's understood best right now. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Jun 4 03:09:42 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 10:09:42 +0200 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <42A0B61B.3060703@oldskool.org> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org> <17056.33145.629272.658492@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42A0B61B.3060703@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050604080942.GV29043@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2005-06-03 14:57:15 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > But that's not your domain/responsibility. The PDF should have been > perfect by the time it got to you -- PDF is a final end-destination format. > If the scans needed touching up, they shouldn't have made it into a PDF in > the first place. Wrong IMHO. As my thesis is the pure four-dimensionalism of preserving content, it's legal (and I'd even *ask* for it) that a good preservation format will allow later enhancements. Be it fixing some spurious black pixels, adding textual/OCRed content or whatever. The person that does the scanning isn't probably the one who actually prepares the "end-format". The "end-format" should be the result of an access to the preserved data, not the result after preservation. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Jun 4 03:11:04 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 10:11:04 +0200 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <42A0B6EC.9050604@oldskool.org> References: <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org> <200506031829.OAA16651@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A0B6EC.9050604@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050604081104.GW29043@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2005-06-03 15:00:44 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > What *is* your need to extract images out of PDF? Possibly cleaning up, OCRing or whatever. But that's not the point. The point is: you don't know what somebody will want to do with it in 15 years. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Jun 4 03:07:54 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 09:07:54 +0100 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 04 Jun 2005 00:44:07 BST." Message-ID: <200506040807.JAA26600@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > > > > I have a device that plugs into a serial port on a PC and looks like a > > disk drive to an Atari 800. Is there such a thing for RT-11? It seems > > like it should be possible to write a disk driver that uses a serial > > port and some sort of serial protocol to communicate with a PC and make > > RT-11 think it is accessing a local disk drive. Has anyone done > > If you'll accept it emulating a tape drive, make it emulate the TU58. > That has an asynchornous host interface (which is trivial to turn into > RS232), and a fairly simple protocol which is documented in the user > manual IIRC. The TU58 is a block-structured device, so it is pretty > similar to a (very slow) disk to the software. > > There must be an RT11 driver for it (DD.SYS?) > Summat like that. > I think there used to be unix-based software to emulate a TU58 (so that a > PDP11 conneccted to a serial port on the unix machine thought it had a > TU58 connected). It must still be around somewhere. Not just unix, there's TU58.EXE for DOS out there somewhere, google will find it. I've got it running on my DOS computer (used for all sorts of old MSDOS stuff) connected to my Micro 11/73. It allows me to ftp tape images from any computer on the network and transfer them to/from the PDP. The PDP, of course, just sees it as drive DD: as you'd expect. Depending on the PDP OS you can fool it into seeing tapes bigger tha 256K which is useful. Works with RT-11v5 anyway. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Jun 4 04:20:23 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 02:20:23 -0700 Subject: Rescued Items In-Reply-To: <94A73D0E-8538-4D08-A664-E9A7829E2A0E@comcast.net> References: <200506040154.j541sNHO078383@dewey.classiccmp.org> <94A73D0E-8538-4D08-A664-E9A7829E2A0E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <42A17257.60605@pacbell.net> CRC wrote: > While on a rescue mission this PM, I pulled out of a pile of boards > destined for the gold merchant the following: > > DEC KDF11 Module M8186 > > TI 9900 Boards: > > TM990/101MA CPU Board > TM990/314 ? (has a DB25 and an edge connector - serial?) > > First takes choice at $2 per board plus shipping. > > CRC > Hi. I'm interested in the TI boards. I'll also take the DEC board if nobody else wants it --Bill From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Jun 4 08:26:15 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 09:26:15 -0400 Subject: Metric buttload of OS rants... again... In-Reply-To: References: <000e01c56803$6a3b50f0$883cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050604092024.058abb60@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > Yes windows today is completely equivalent to the different OS's I've used > > on a variety of systems since I started in the mid 70's. The fact that > > Micro$loth has created a bloated giant that self destructs with time is a > > side issue. The open source equivalent Linux is also a bloated giant. > >Except that it rarely (if ever) self destructs with time. And it doesn't *have* to be a bloated giant; only the prepackaged versions are. If you want your own, whip out LFS and recompile it *any way you like.* Yes, there are still versions that can fit on a pair of floppies -- no HD required! >BIG difference. Yup. =-=-=-=-=-=-= Speaking of whiny people whining about Closed-Source OSs and whining those whiny computers/OSs won't open whiny PDFs... Who has a version of MicroWare's OS-9 68K that'll run on an Atari ST? ;-) Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 4 09:59:49 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:59:49 -0400 Subject: Metric buttload of OS rants... again... Message-ID: <0IHK001DKEYCRYI5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Metric buttload of OS rants... again... > From: Roger Merchberger > Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 09:26:15 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >>On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> >> > Yes windows today is completely equivalent to the different OS's I've used >> > on a variety of systems since I started in the mid 70's. The fact that >> > Micro$loth has created a bloated giant that self destructs with time is a >> > side issue. The open source equivalent Linux is also a bloated giant. >> >>Except that it rarely (if ever) self destructs with time. > >And it doesn't *have* to be a bloated giant; only the prepackaged versions >are. If you want your own, whip out LFS and recompile it *any way you >like.* Yes, there are still versions that can fit on a pair of floppies -- >no HD required! > >>BIG difference. > >Yup. > >=-=-=-=-=-=-= > >Speaking of whiny people whining about Closed-Source OSs and whining those >whiny computers/OSs won't open whiny PDFs... > >Who has a version of MicroWare's OS-9 68K that'll run on an Atari ST? > >;-) > >Laterz, >"Merch" > >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers >zmerch at 30below.com The only thing I like about the linux/unix tree is that we can hang Billy G from it. I'm not a unix sort myself but, having used linux (also Ultrix, Freebsd and Openbsd) I can say it's solid, compact and latest distributions are fairly complete. It's biggest feature is it's totally configurable. It's clearly one of the few OSs out there for PCs that if you don't like a feature or it's size changing it is not only possible, there's a good chance someones done it for you. The down side is the world is so totally PC/wintel centric that you end up running msWord and Excel virii and all no matter what. You know it's a curse when you apply to a linix shop and they want a MSword Resume.. ;-p Allison From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 4 10:29:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 08:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: <20050603182001.XBHB5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> >OK, I pulled the front panel appart tonight and I found out that whoever > >> >owned this model colored the silkscreen with magic marker. Bogus! > >> > > >> >Anyway, I can get a new photomask from Todd Fischer for $20. Well worth > >> >it. > >> > >> I was afraid of that ... Although it's good that you can get a replacement, > >> keeping it all original has merit as well - depending on the marker used, > >> you might be able to carefully remove it. Try a Q-tip with some whiteboard > >> cleaner and move up to stronger solutions as required. > > > >Oh for ****'s sake. > > > >How is cleaning off the ink any different from replacing the strip? You > >just said, "keeping it all original has merit as well". I guess attacking > >it with whiteboard cleaner is not considered a modification to the > >original? > > I don't recall using the verb "attack" ... if he's lucky, the marker used was > a soluable one, and it will clean up nicely with no damage to the original > strip - if you can do that, then why not clean it up and keep it all original. > As Rich noted in a later message, the replacement he can get is not identical > to the original... > > Have you never cleaned up a computer that you really wanted to restore to > original condition? You never defined "original condition". This could mean the condition it was in when it left the factory, or the condition it was in when it left the nth generation owner. At any rate, this is all getting a bit nazi. If Rich wanted to saw it in half so he could display the innards then that would be his perogative. > Obviously any cleanup should be attempted with great care, and if it's not > going to work, then by all means get the replacement, and keep the original > in a safe place.... but that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least investigate > restoring the original first. Everything has a story. You have to decide if you are going to continue writing the story where the last guy left off by removing the ink or considering it complete and leaving the computer as is. Rich decided to continue the story. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spedraja at ono.com Sat Jun 4 10:36:39 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 17:36:39 +0200 Subject: SGS UX8-22 CP/M System and WD-1000 controller References: <0IHK001DKEYCRYI5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <00e301c5691b$33a4d0c0$1502a8c0@ACER> Hello. I own one UX8-22 system manufactured in Italy by SGS. It has two pretty 8" floppies plus the possibility to add a couple more... and it can manage one external Winchester Hard Disk of 4 MB using one WD-1000 controller. I should like to obtain one of these controllers. All the information and offers that you could send me would be welcome, included external hard disks that could work with the WD-1000. In this aspect, it would be welcome too one double floppy external unit of 8". The UX8 claim to manage the standard IBM 3740 floppies from SSSD to DSDD. Thanks Sergio From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 4 10:47:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 08:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <200506032122.RAA18283@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: Wow. I've never seen a more useless thread full of meaningless gibberish being bandied about by people with way too much time on their hands. No, wait a minute: I have. And it was here on the Classic Computers mailing list. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 4 11:05:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: <200506040807.JAA26600@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Stan Barr wrote: > Not just unix, there's TU58.EXE for DOS out there somewhere, google will > find it. I've got it running on my DOS computer (used for all sorts of > old MSDOS stuff) connected to my Micro 11/73. It allows me to ftp > tape images from any computer on the network and transfer them to/from the > PDP. The PDP, of course, just sees it as drive DD: as you'd expect. > Depending on the PDP OS you can fool it into seeing tapes bigger tha > 256K which is useful. Works with RT-11v5 anyway. I am absolutely AMAZED that it took this long for anyone to suggest this. The PC-DOS based TU58 emulator works like a champ, and the PUTR program for managing media images is an excellent companion. Get everything you need here: http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/ The emulator executable is in: http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/rt11arc.exe The documentation is here: http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/rt11arc.txt Get PUTR (and it's documenation) here: http://www.dbit.com/pub/putr/ And if you'd like to own putr.com, it's only $2,999: http://putr.com/ Though I'm not sure why a stupid sounding URL would be useful to anyone at any price. Let me know if you need any assistance bringing this up. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From stan.johnson at gmail.com Sat Jun 4 11:56:31 2005 From: stan.johnson at gmail.com (Stan Johnson) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 11:56:31 -0500 Subject: For Sale: Computer collection: CPM, Amiga, Sun, lots of DEC (including VAX11-750) Chicago area Message-ID: <8a83fa380506040956a0efc66@mail.gmail.com> Hello I find myself having to do something I don't want to do, but currently I have no choice. I must downsize my living arrangements, which means the computer collection has to go ASAP. I don't have time to ship unless there is a large bribe included, so local pickup/delivery is needed. I'm in Aurora IL, (~40miles west of Chicago), and at least one item will need a truck (VAX11-750). I'll take 20 to 40 dollars for each machine (with three exceptions), the price per machine goes down if you take multiples. First reply gets an item unless someone will show up to take everything. Reply directly to me by email to keep the extra traffic off the list. I'll try to start getting back to people by the middle of next week. (I'll wait a few days to see if by chance someone will take everything - best case.) -------- exceptions (will also consider offers on these): Amiga 100 - mint condition $100 with extras Dec Alpha AS4000 server - $100 VAX11-750 very complete - $500 if you take any of these three machines I'll include other stuff at a much reduced price... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 Heathkit/Zenth H89 one with 8 inch floppies Both H89 have 68k memory and worked when last powered up have software (both HDOS and CPM) and COMPLETE docs lots of CPM software One of these was my first home computer IMSAI chassis only (no front panel/no boards) NorthStar CPM system (S100 bus) no software so don't know if it works 2 Kaypro 10 - at least one works and was used extensively lots of misc S100 boards ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Next Cube Next Slab with monitors, keyboards, and mice, and software with docs SGI Indigo doesn't boot due to the battery backed clock being dead I have docs and IRIX install CDs (and a large heavy monitor) produces a beautiful work env. but slow by todays standards. TI99/4A with expansion chassis (2X) Sun 3/60 with Drive chassis, tape and monitors Sun Sparc 5 (have run with Solarios and NetBSD) ---------------------------------------------------------- Amiga 500 (x2) Amiga 1200 Amiga 2500 (not working, bad chip memory, has ethernet card) Amiga 1000 monitors and drives lots and lots of amiga software and docs including most versions of AmigaOS These were my main systems for most of the 90's C128 (2x) with drives and lots of extras and lots of software ------------------------------------------------------ lots of DEC hardware PDP11 - 23 base system in a Qbus chassis (no drive) VaxStation 4000/mdl 60 (40 megs memory) nice VMS or netbsd machine have run both on this machine have drives for the machine MicroVax 3100 with tape drive 2 DecStations 5000/125 2 DecStations 5000/150 (has extra TurboChannel cards for scsi and network) Dec monitors (heavy) and keyboards/hockey puck mice Dec Drive SCSI expansion box Alpha 4000 (no skins, no drive shelf, 1 CPU and memory I was booting it over the network and clustering it with my other VMS nodes and using it as a compute node.) VAX11-750 including ......Full Set of spares, front panel down to the power supplies, ......Print Set, . ......Emulex MASSBUS <-> SMD ......2 Fujitsu Eagles ~430 MB each (SMD) (with boot prom) ......2 CDC Sabre ~ 1BG each (SMD) (with boot prom) . ......TU81 (Unibus interface) ......Unibus Ethernet ......Unibus SCSI ......RS232 Multiplexers . ......Many TU58 Diagnostic Tapes ......Installation Manuals, Hardware Manuals .. and more. . ......The whole machine currently will run on a 120V/20A ......circuit. (CPU, TU81, 1 Eagle, and both Sabres) ------------------------------------------------------------- various other intel machines for parts and some compete machines including at least x286, x386, X486 and slow pentium machines some SCSI drive cases and SCSI drives I'll throw in with other machines lots of computer books that will go with the machines associated with that machine/topic. almost a complete set of BYTE including most of the early issues. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- will consider trades for a newer DEC alpha desktop to replace the DEC 3000/mdl 600 I'm keeping. If I get a replacment alpha the DEC 3000 will also have to go. Thanks Stan Johnson srj at pobox.com From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jun 4 12:13:56 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 13:13:56 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004d01c56928$ca5dcb40$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> I didn't really mean for this to become a big topic, but here's the final word on the marker... The guy I got it from was the original owner, having purchased it from The BYTE Shop in the this condition. Until I finish the power supply tests and verify that the machine works, I'm not going to fully disassemble the front panel. IMSAI.NET can supply parts a-la-carte but the mounting hole registration cannot be guaranteed to be exact unless you buy the complete "stack" of plexiglass, photo mask, opaque card and red filter for $75. I'm going to try isopropyl alcohol on a Q-tip first and if that doesn't do anything then I'll go for the full restoration, keeping the old components for safe keeping. Frankly, a neat, clean, full-logoged front panel is more important to me than authenticity. If I were displaying it in the Smithsonian, then I might think differently, but so long as I keep the original components, I'm OK with it. By the way, the power supply, so far, has tested fine. I'm going to look for any ripple with the scope later today. I've never done that test -- should I DC or AC couple the scope for that test? And God, no, I would never saw it in half :-) Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 11:29 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> >OK, I pulled the front panel appart tonight and I found out that > >> >whoever owned this model colored the silkscreen with magic marker. > >> >Bogus! > >> > > >> >Anyway, I can get a new photomask from Todd Fischer for $20. Well > >> >worth it. > >> > >> I was afraid of that ... Although it's good that you can get a > >> replacement, keeping it all original has merit as well - depending > >> on the marker used, you might be able to carefully remove it. Try a > >> Q-tip with some whiteboard cleaner and move up to stronger > >> solutions as required. > > > >Oh for ****'s sake. > > > >How is cleaning off the ink any different from replacing the strip? > >You just said, "keeping it all original has merit as well". I guess > >attacking it with whiteboard cleaner is not considered a modification > >to the original? > > I don't recall using the verb "attack" ... if he's lucky, the marker > used was a soluable one, and it will clean up nicely with no damage to > the original strip - if you can do that, then why not clean it up and > keep it all original. As Rich noted in a later message, the > replacement he can get is not identical to the original... > > Have you never cleaned up a computer that you really wanted to restore > to original condition? You never defined "original condition". This could mean the condition it was in when it left the factory, or the condition it was in when it left the nth generation owner. At any rate, this is all getting a bit nazi. If Rich wanted to saw it in half so he could display the innards then that would be his perogative. > Obviously any cleanup should be attempted with great care, and if it's > not going to work, then by all means get the replacement, and keep the > original in a safe place.... but that doesn't mean you shouldn't at > least investigate restoring the original first. Everything has a story. You have to decide if you are going to continue writing the story where the last guy left off by removing the ink or considering it complete and leaving the computer as is. Rich decided to continue the story. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 4 12:15:50 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 10:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: <004d01c56928$ca5dcb40$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > And God, no, I would never saw it in half :-) But if you did, it would be your perogative ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Jun 4 12:35:50 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 13:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: <004d01c56928$ca5dcb40$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <004d01c56928$ca5dcb40$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > By the way, the power supply, so far, has tested fine. I'm going to look > for any ripple with the scope later today. I've never done that test -- > should I DC or AC couple the scope for that test? My S-100 lore / experience is decades old now - but, ISTR that the main supply in most early S-100 boxen was just a brute-force transformer-bridge-filtercap arrangment that fed about 8 raw DC volts to the cards, which were then responsible for 'taming' and regulating that raw DC to a meek and smoothly tractable 5V. So if you look at the (unloaded) voltage coming from the PS - it's liable to look more like a battery charger than a computer power supply... And for sure, 'AC' couple the scope, otherwise the DC offset will drive the trace past where the 'vertical' control is capable of restoring it - unless you set your 'volts per division' switch to 10 or 20 to get a trace on screen, you won't be able to see 100 mV very easily at that resolution (in 'DC' coupling mode, that is) Cheers John From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 4 13:02:23 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 14:02:23 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: <200506041700.j54H0g7T084128@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200506041802.j54I2HWZ005751@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> RE: > OK, I pulled the front panel appart tonight and I found out that whoever > owned this model colored the silkscreen with magic marker. Bogus! Todd Fischer sells new film masks. www.imsai.net, I believe. From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sat Jun 4 15:25:08 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 16:25:08 -0400 Subject: punches In-Reply-To: <200506041700.j54H0g7U084128@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506041700.j54H0g7U084128@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5g34a1pp8tiethagnlrcgdqrplvol1tis7@4ax.com> On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 12:00:52 -0500 (CDT), you wrote: >[1] The first 3 I ever bought, over 25 years ago, were 5/8", 3/4" and >1+1/8". Why? > >-tony seven-pin, nine-pin and octal tube sockets? -Charles From technobug at comcast.net Sat Jun 4 16:20:56 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 14:20:56 -0700 Subject: Rescued Items In-Reply-To: <200506041700.j54H0237084093@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506041700.j54H0237084093@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: All items have been spoken for. I've clued my scrapper into the want list on Vintage, so perhaps he will get a little more proactive in posting to the list/Vintage. CRC From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 4 16:25:24 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 21:25:24 +0000 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117920324.22192.57.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 00:29 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > My Nascom is almost impossible to get to at the moment, can you remind me > as to what chips are on the keyboard? I am going to guess at at least one > TTL decoder chip, and maybe not a lot else. 4 x 7400 ICs, 2 x LM3086, then a 7493, 74123 and 74145. Hmm, that's interesting. That's the exact same chips as on the Nascom 1 keyboard (which only uses 6 data lines, amongst other things. I'll definitely trace as much of a schematic as I need to I think as maybe the Nascom 2 keyboard doesn't use 8 data lines either (even though they're all present on the CPU board's connector) > I did find my schematic for the Gemini keyboard last night (this is a > much larger system using the same NASbus pinout, etc). It is, alas, > very different, the Gemini keyboard has a microcontroller in it, and > seems to send ASCII to the rest of the machine. Aha, yes we have one of those at the museum - long time since I've peeked inside, but I seem to remember it was a pretty tricked-out system. > > needed by the keyboard itself, I'll move it to the CPU chassis and use > > DA15's for the keyboard. > > > > If it is needed, I'll have to go the DB25 route. I did wonder about DA26 > > connectors, but I'm not sure if those were about when the Nascom 2 was > > current (I'm trying to use period bits for everything). Plus I don't > > Strange comment, based on your attitude to the 5155 :-) Don't start that again ;-) > > Cutting out the right shaped holes in aluminium for these connectors is > > a right pain in the butt, so I don't want to have to do it more than > > once ;) > > RS do some very expensive hole punches for the D-series connectors. Hmm, be nice to have one of those one day. In the past I've used steel mounting brackets from PC expansion cards that have the right connector hole as a template for cutting aluminium. Clamp them over the piece of work, then remove as much material as possible with a drill / snips before finishing off with a set of files. It works pretty well for putting the right holes in aluminium, just takes a while to do a nice job where a proper tool would be more or less instant. Presumably the punch tool has a limit as to how far from the edges of a piece it can reach? cheers Jules From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Jun 4 16:43:08 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:43:08 +0100 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector References: <1117920324.22192.57.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <007c01c5694e$6649b800$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> > Presumably the punch tool has a limit as to how far from the edges of a > piece it can reach? > There was a "Q-Max" D type punch, don't know if it is still available, but that could be used to pace a hole anywhere in a sheet of metal (it is pulled through with a bolt, so doesn't need a press of any kind). Jim. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 4 16:53:07 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 17:53:07 -0400 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector Message-ID: <0IHK00EXYY32KRK6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Nascom 2 keyboard connector > From: "Jim Beacon" > Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:43:08 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >> Presumably the punch tool has a limit as to how far from the edges of a >> piece it can reach? >> >There was a "Q-Max" D type punch, don't know if it is still available, but >that could be used to pace a hole anywhere in a sheet of metal (it is pulled >through with a bolt, so doesn't need a press of any kind). > >Jim. The famed and well used Greenlee punches are like that. Various sizes and shapes and you drill a through hole and assemble the punch on opposing sides, insert bolt and tighten. Nice clean holes. I also have a nibbling tool, takes a .1"x.25" bite in any direction and perfect for odd chassis holes. My wish list includes a 2-3FT wide sheetmetal shear and a small (18"-24") bending brake. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 4 16:30:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:30:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 4, 5 00:29:21 am Message-ID: > My Nascom is almost impossible to get to at the moment, can you remind me > as to what chips are on the keyboard? I am going to guess at at least one > TTL decoder chip, and maybe not a lot else. I've had a look at the NAS-SYS 3 source listing. I mamnaged to find the keyboard scanning routine, and it would appear that the keyboard incorporates a hardware scan counter. It's reset by one of the Q outputs (Q1, I think) and incremented by one of the others (Q0?). The keyboard row lines are read in on the bottom 7 of the D inputs. What the D7 input is used for (shift???) and what the other 2 Q outputs do is something I've not worked out yet. -tony From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 4 17:11:08 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 18:11:08 -0400 Subject: DATA I/O 29B Modification? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050604181108.01808e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> A year or two ago there was a webpage that showed how to modify the model 29B EPROM Programmer to increase it's memory to 1mb. I didn't bookmark it and how I can't find it. Does anyone know the URL for it or have a copy of it stored anywhere? Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 4 16:58:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:58:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <1117920324.22192.57.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 4, 5 09:25:24 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 00:29 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > My Nascom is almost impossible to get to at the moment, can you remind me > > as to what chips are on the keyboard? I am going to guess at at least one > > TTL decoder chip, and maybe not a lot else. > > 4 x 7400 ICs, 2 x LM3086, then a 7493, 74123 and 74145. > > Hmm, that's interesting. That's the exact same chips as on the Nascom 1 > keyboard (which only uses 6 data lines, amongst other things. I'll The Nascom 2 keyboard seems to use D0...D6 (in that the port is read, then ANDed with 0x7f). The '93 is the counter I refered to in my other message, the '145 is the decoder. I wonder what the other chips are for. It does use switches and not something more strange, I trust.... > > RS do some very expensive hole punches for the D-series connectors. > > Hmm, be nice to have one of those one day. In the past I've used steel > mounting brackets from PC expansion cards that have the right connector > hole as a template for cutting aluminium. Clamp them over the piece of > work, then remove as much material as possible with a drill / snips > before finishing off with a set of files. It works pretty well for Yes, that's what I do for things other than DB shells. One day I'll buy the DE one (which is the next most common size that I use). > putting the right holes in aluminium, just takes a while to do a nice > job where a proper tool would be more or less instant. > > Presumably the punch tool has a limit as to how far from the edges of a > piece it can reach? No, it's not the rack-n-pinion press. These punches work by a central bolt. What you do is drill an 8mm hole in the middle of the place where you want the D connector. Bolt a template (supplied with the punch to that hole, then drill 2 3mm holes through it (these later become the mounting holes for the connector). Fit the 2 parts of the die to the panel -- they have pins that go through the 3mm holes. Fit the punch into the die with the bolt going through the 8mm hole. Fit the ball thrust bearing, washer and nut, then tighten the nut to pull the punch through the panel. As I said, if you want a DB hole done, and the aluminium is thin enough (see the spec on the RS web site, etc) I'll do it for you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 4 16:42:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:42:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help collecting gear from west of Chicago In-Reply-To: <38174.207.145.53.202.1117849025.squirrel@207.145.53.202> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 3, 5 06:37:05 pm Message-ID: > > Tony wrote: > > Unibus and Qbus use the same double-sided 36 pin (18 pin per side) 0.125" > > pitch connectors. Q bus boards are normally dual or quad, Unibus are > > normally quad or hrx. > > To be overly pedantic: > > Unibus boards are normally dual. The only real Unibus boards you're likely > to find are the terminators and bus jumpers. If someone tries to tell you > that a quad or hex board is a Unibus board, they're almost certainly > mistaken, and it is probably really an SPC or MUD/SPC board. Normally > the only Unibus slots in a PDP-11 backplane are the A-B positions of the > first and last slots, though there are exceptions to that in various > places such as the PDP-11/45 and RH11 backplanes. Overly pedanyic, yes.... Since the signals on an SPC slot are essentially those on the backplane interconnecting slots (which is what you're calling Unibus), I think it would be reasonable to say that the SPC boards are Unibus devices. Certainly DEC manuals do this (they talk about a Unibus serial board which is actually an SPC board, etc). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 4 16:43:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:43:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <20050603195506.V10186@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 3, 5 07:56:35 pm Message-ID: > a DB25 with 16 pins wired would be a DB16 :-) I would agree that a DB size shell with 16 pins is a DB16, but I would also claim that a DB shell with 25 pins fitted is a DB25 no matter how many (or few) of them are wired. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 4 16:50:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:50:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: <004d01c56928$ca5dcb40$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> from "Richard A. Cini" at Jun 4, 5 01:13:56 pm Message-ID: > By the way, the power supply, so far, has tested fine. I'm going to look > for any ripple with the scope later today. I've never done that test -- > should I DC or AC couple the scope for that test? AC coupled. That's really what AC coupling is for -- you want to ignore the steady DC level (of several volts) and look at the (hopefully) much smaller AC ripple on top of it. To do that you need to turn up the Y sensitivity on your 'scope, and unless you have a differential comparator input or something, you won't be able to keep the trace on-screen with DC coupling. Don't worry too much about ripple on an S100 supply. The S100 supply is not regulated -- the regulators are on each of the boards (the 8V input is designed to be regulated down to 5V, etc). The regulators should take care of small amounts of ripple on the backplane supply lines. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 4 16:52:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:52:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: punches In-Reply-To: <5g34a1pp8tiethagnlrcgdqrplvol1tis7@4ax.com> from "Charles" at Jun 4, 5 04:25:08 pm Message-ID: > >[1] The first 3 I ever bought, over 25 years ago, were 5/8", 3/4" and > >1+1/8". Why? > seven-pin, nine-pin and octal tube sockets? Exactly. We call the first 2 'B7G' and 'B9A' over here, BTW. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 4 17:03:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:03:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <007c01c5694e$6649b800$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> from "Jim Beacon" at Jun 4, 5 10:43:08 pm Message-ID: > > > > Presumably the punch tool has a limit as to how far from the edges of a > > piece it can reach? > > > There was a "Q-Max" D type punch, don't know if it is still available, but > that could be used to pace a hole anywhere in a sheet of metal (it is pulled > through with a bolt, so doesn't need a press of any kind). That's the type I have. It's not a Q-Max brand, it's RS (http://www.rswww.com/ IIRC). I've never seen an odd-shaped genuine Q-Max cutter (I know they did make sqyare and rectangular ones, though). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 4 17:06:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:06:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <0IHK00EXYY32KRK6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Jun 4, 5 05:53:07 pm Message-ID: > >There was a "Q-Max" D type punch, don't know if it is still available, but > >that could be used to pace a hole anywhere in a sheet of metal (it is pulled > >through with a bolt, so doesn't need a press of any kind). > > > >Jim. > > The famed and well used Greenlee punches are like that. Various sizes I've never seen a Greenlee punch in the UK. The famous ones over here were called 'Q-Max', and are _very_ good, and last a long time if not misused. There were some cheap knock-offs that were useless and made poor holes (if they worked at all). RS components (nothing to do with Radio Shack, this is a major electronic component distributor know to old hands as 'Radiospares') sell their own brand of punches. I have no idea who makes them, but they are good (if expensive). A D-connector punch is getting on for \pounds 100 (!). > and shapes and you drill a through hole and assemble the punch on > opposing sides, insert bolt and tighten. Nice clean holes. Yep, just like our Q-Max punches. -tony From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jun 4 17:26:34 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 18:26:34 -0400 Subject: S100 address buss troubleshooting Message-ID: <004e01c56954$774447a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: After verifying the power supply, I'm now starting to play with the system. I put in the CPU board (TDL Z80) and three 16k memory boards. Reading and writing data to memory seems to work, but frequently I'll get the A13 and A7 LEDs stuck ON. If I toggle RESET, the LEDs clear but on my first EXAMINE, A13 and A7 go on. Things I have not done yet: * loaded any programs or tried to verify memory fully * cleaned any board contacts If I pull one of the memory boards, the A7 problem goes away but A13 stays on all the time, leading me to believe that that issue is either on the CPU card or the front panel card. How does one troubleshoot a stuck-bit problem in these systems? I do have a 12-bit logic analyzer on a laptop (uses the parallel port) but I haven't pulled that out yet. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jun 4 17:32:15 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:32:15 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: <20050604223214.PRUJ5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 08:29 04/06/2005 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> >> >OK, I pulled the front panel appart tonight and I found out that whoever >> >> >owned this model colored the silkscreen with magic marker. Bogus! >> >> > >> >> >Anyway, I can get a new photomask from Todd Fischer for $20. Well worth >> >> >it. >> >> >> >> I was afraid of that ... Although it's good that you can get a replacement, >> >> keeping it all original has merit as well - depending on the marker used, >> >> you might be able to carefully remove it. Try a Q-tip with some whiteboard >> >> cleaner and move up to stronger solutions as required. >> > >> >Oh for ****'s sake. >> > >> >How is cleaning off the ink any different from replacing the strip? You >> >just said, "keeping it all original has merit as well". I guess attacking >> >it with whiteboard cleaner is not considered a modification to the >> >original? >> >> I don't recall using the verb "attack" ... if he's lucky, the marker used was >> a soluable one, and it will clean up nicely with no damage to the original >> strip - if you can do that, then why not clean it up and keep it all original. >> As Rich noted in a later message, the replacement he can get is not identical >> to the original... >> >> Have you never cleaned up a computer that you really wanted to restore to >> original condition? > >You never defined "original condition". This could mean the condition it >was in when it left the factory, or the condition it was in when it left >the nth generation owner. > >At any rate, this is all getting a bit nazi. If Rich wanted to saw it in >half so he could display the innards then that would be his perogative. I'm sorry, but I really don't know what your problem is with my postings. Rich's asking on the list how to fix the IMSAI logo seemed like enough evidence to me that he wants it visible like when it left the factory and not blacked-out as done by the previous owner (he would not have had to ask how to keep it blacked out as it was already done). Are you suggesting that I am a Nazi for giving my opinion that there is merit in keeping the original artwork if it is reasonably possible instead of replacing it (which he had indicated that he was considering). At no time on any of my postings did I attempt to coerce Rich into doing anything (or not doing anything) with his machine that he didn't want to do - I simply gave my suggestions and opinions in response to his inquiry. I was unaware that this would cause a problem. How does one determine what suggestions and opinions are considered acceptable to this list? >> Obviously any cleanup should be attempted with great care, and if it's not >> going to work, then by all means get the replacement, and keep the original >> in a safe place.... but that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least investigate >> restoring the original first. > >Everything has a story. You have to decide if you are going to continue >writing the story where the last guy left off by removing the ink or >considering it complete and leaving the computer as is. Rich decided to >continue the story. Yes, thats how I understood his postings, which is why I offered what I considered to be helpful suggestions to that end. Just recently, a thread went by where opinions were given as to the merit of keeping original screws in machine - I don't recall anyone bashing the person with that option - how is it different to discuss the options in replacing or not replacing front panel artwork? ... In other words, what did I do to incur the "Wrath of Sellam"? (hey, we could make a movie with that for a title!) Enough already. If I touched on a sore spot, I do apologize - I had no intention of getting anyone upset, I just wanted to assist in the restoration of one of my favorite 8080 machines. I will not further clutter the list with this matter, however I will respond to email if you would like to continue the discussion. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From spedraja at ono.com Sat Jun 4 17:39:50 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 00:39:50 +0200 Subject: SGS UX8-22 CP/M System and WD-1000 controller + Hard Disk Message-ID: <018001c56956$538b7700$1502a8c0@ACER> Well, I've read more in depth the documentation that comes with the UX8-20 and I have clear now how it manage the Hard Disk matter. In appeareance the Floppy controller can manage up to FOUR floppy disk units of 8". In addition, it has one interface with one WD-1000 controller. So, what I need is one vintage WD-1000 controller plus the corresponding Hard Disk of 4mb-5mb. I don't know in what format these items appeared years ago, but something makes me think in some kind of external enclosure with the 8" disk inside plus the WD-1000 controller, with the PSU inside and one 5-pin interface to the outside world. Is this so ? And, more important... Has someone something similar to this ? I have one shugart 8" hard disk of 8" recently purchased and in appeareance in working condition... I should need the rest. Regards Sergio From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jun 4 17:40:37 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:40:37 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: <20050604224036.PTME5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Don't worry too much about ripple on an S100 supply. The S100 supply is >not regulated -- the regulators are on each of the boards (the 8V input >is designed to be regulated down to 5V, etc). The regulators should take >care of small amounts of ripple on the backplane supply lines. Agreed: Rich, what I ment when I told you to check for ripple, would be "big" ripple, which would be an indication of the filter caps having dried out - not all that likely, but worth checking. The input to the regulators should not drop below 7v under load. I always scope supplies under initial load tests - You never know what odd things you might see... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Jun 4 17:55:12 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:55:12 +0100 Subject: DATA I/O 29B Modification? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050604181108.01808e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050604181108.01808e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <94adf4754d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <3.0.6.32.20050604181108.01808e60 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> "Joe R." wrote: > A year or two ago there was a webpage that showed how to modify the > model 29B EPROM Programmer to increase it's memory to 1mb. I didn't > bookmark it and how I can't find it. Does anyone know the URL for it or > have a copy of it stored anywhere? Ooh! I saw that the other day while I was looking for a source of fuse-PROMs (82S1xx series? can't remember the P/Ns offhand). Here's the URL: Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Some minds should be cultivated, others ploughed under...? From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Jun 4 18:01:55 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:01:55 -0500 Subject: SGS UX8-22 CP/M System and WD-1000 controller + Hard Disk References: <018001c56956$538b7700$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <002201c56959$6b2156c0$8d3dd7d1@randy> From: "SP" Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 5:39 PM > Well, I've read more in depth the documentation that comes with the UX8-20 > and I have clear now how it manage the Hard Disk matter. > > In appeareance the Floppy controller can manage up to FOUR floppy disk > units > of 8". In addition, it has one interface with one WD-1000 controller. > > So, what I need is one vintage WD-1000 controller plus the corresponding > Hard Disk of 4mb-5mb. > > I don't know in what format these items appeared years ago, but something > makes me think in some kind of external enclosure with the 8" disk inside > plus the WD-1000 controller, with the PSU inside and one 5-pin interface > to > the outside world. > > Is this so ? And, more important... Has someone something similar to this > ? > I have one shugart 8" hard disk of 8" recently purchased and in > appeareance > in working condition... I should need the rest. > > Regards > Sergio The WD1000 documentation is on Al's site (bitsavers.org). I sent him index files with the parts listed, even giving the page number: wd1984storageProducts_03 wd1983catalog_01 Others docs are available on the net. I recently saw 2 controllers for sale but I rarely see them. I've been thinking of a project to emulate one, they are simple and the precursor to the IDE. With very little effort it should be possible to interface it to an IDE drive. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Jun 4 18:03:58 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:03:58 -0500 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too References: <20050604224036.PTME5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <002701c56959$b3edd040$8d3dd7d1@randy> From: "Dave Dunfield" Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 5:40 PM > >Don't worry too much about ripple on an S100 supply. The S100 supply is >>not regulated -- the regulators are on each of the boards (the 8V input >>is designed to be regulated down to 5V, etc). The regulators should take >>care of small amounts of ripple on the backplane supply lines. > > Agreed: Rich, what I ment when I told you to check for ripple, would be > "big" ripple, which would be an indication of the filter caps having > dried out - not all that likely, but worth checking. The input to the > regulators should not drop below 7v under load. > > I always scope supplies under initial load tests - You never know what > odd things you might see... > > Regards, > Dave > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html Generally Imsais have much less ripple than Altairs (bigger filter caps). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jun 4 18:10:20 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 19:10:20 -0400 Subject: S100 address buss troubleshooting Message-ID: <20050604231019.HYNK16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 18:26 04/06/2005 -0400, you wrote: >All: > > After verifying the power supply, I'm now starting to play with the >system. I put in the CPU board (TDL Z80) and three 16k memory boards. >Reading and writing data to memory seems to work, but frequently I'll get >the A13 and A7 LEDs stuck ON. If I toggle RESET, the LEDs clear but on my >first EXAMINE, A13 and A7 go on. > > Things I have not done yet: > * loaded any programs or tried to verify memory fully > * cleaned any board contacts > > If I pull one of the memory boards, the A7 problem goes away but A13 >stays on all the time, leading me to believe that that issue is either on >the CPU card or the front panel card. > > How does one troubleshoot a stuck-bit problem in these systems? I do >have a 12-bit logic analyzer on a laptop (uses the parallel port) but I >haven't pulled that out yet. Rich, Check the switches - I had an IMSAI panel which exhibited the same symptom on one address bit, and it turned out that the original builder had done a very poor job of soldering the switches, and a cold solder joint was causing the switch not to pull the bit down. An easy test is to set the suspect switch and all switches BELOW it to ON, and all switches ABOVE it to OFF - perform an EXAMINE, and the lights should match the switches (all LEDs above OFF, the suspect and all below ON). The do EXAMINE NEXT which should wrap to the next bit. The suspect and all LEDs below should go OFF, and the LED next up should go on ... If the syspect LED goes OFF, then most of the panel->bus interface is working, and the problem may be a switch or early-on buffer/latch. If it stays ON then you will have to look further. Also check/clean the S-100 connectors, and the "umbilical cord" between the panel and the CPU - poor connections here can cause individual malfunctioning front panel bits. Many S-100 CPU cards have a connector for the IMSAI front panel, so if you have other systems, it may be easy for you to try another CPU - keep in mind that there is usually a jumper on the card to control the WRITE signal on the bus being generated by the CPU card or the Front panel. If the above gets you nowhere, then it's just a matter of sitting down with the schematic and a scope and following the signal from that switch all the way through to the bus at some point you should see that the zero from the switch is not making it through a component or connector. I don't recall the details of the IMSAI panel, but you might have to trigger on the read strobe to catch the signal being clocked through the panel. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From spedraja at ono.com Sat Jun 4 18:10:46 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 01:10:46 +0200 Subject: SGS UX8-22 CP/M System and WD-1000 controller + Hard Disk References: <018001c56956$538b7700$1502a8c0@ACER> <002201c56959$6b2156c0$8d3dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <018e01c5695a$a3e11ee0$1502a8c0@ACER> Thanks for the info, Randy. If you try the WD-1000 emulator project, let me know. I should like to see the UX8 accesing one HD. Regards Sergio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy McLaughlin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:01 AM Subject: Re: SGS UX8-22 CP/M System and WD-1000 controller + Hard Disk > From: "SP" > Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 5:39 PM > > > > Well, I've read more in depth the documentation that comes with the UX8-20 > > and I have clear now how it manage the Hard Disk matter. > > > > In appeareance the Floppy controller can manage up to FOUR floppy disk > > units > > of 8". In addition, it has one interface with one WD-1000 controller. > > > > So, what I need is one vintage WD-1000 controller plus the corresponding > > Hard Disk of 4mb-5mb. > > > > I don't know in what format these items appeared years ago, but something > > makes me think in some kind of external enclosure with the 8" disk inside > > plus the WD-1000 controller, with the PSU inside and one 5-pin interface > > to > > the outside world. > > > > Is this so ? And, more important... Has someone something similar to this > > ? > > I have one shugart 8" hard disk of 8" recently purchased and in > > appeareance > > in working condition... I should need the rest. > > > > Regards > > Sergio > > The WD1000 documentation is on Al's site (bitsavers.org). I sent him index > files with the parts listed, even giving the page number: > > wd1984storageProducts_03 > > wd1983catalog_01 > > > Others docs are available on the net. I recently saw 2 controllers for sale > but I rarely see them. I've been thinking of a project to emulate one, they > are simple and the precursor to the IDE. With very little effort it should > be possible to interface it to an IDE drive. > > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com > > From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Jun 4 18:16:49 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:16:49 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy><200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy><200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000e01c56803$6a3b50f0$883cd7d1@randy><200506030702.DAA13587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><003901c5685a$5557cd10$cf7ba8c0@RANDY><200506031942.PAA17325@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><005601c56876$c5c8d4b0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> <200506032058.QAA17939@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <005e01c5695b$7fca4530$8d3dd7d1@randy> From: "der Mouse" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 3:47 PM >> There are only a very few methods that are currently accepted as >> packaged scanned documents. Only one method is considered universal, >> PDF's. > > I think we have good evidence in this very thread that PDFs *aren't* > universal. (I don't doubt they are considered universal by some > people; those people are wrong. I'd even go so far as to say that > anyone who considers *any* format as universal is, strictly, wrong - > there probably are a few people who can't do anything useful with even > as widely supported a format as plain text.) > > Your use of the passive voice is clever. You are hiding a great deal > with it, but I'm not going to let you get away with it. Specifically, > >> are currently accepted as >> is considered universal > > By whom? > > I listed three alternative packagings; you have given no evidence to > support your implicit claim that they are not accepted or that they are > not considered universal - claims that are impossible to refute because > you have not specified by whom they are putatively "accepted" or > "considered". Presumably you will claim existence proofs by example, > most likely with yourself as the example, in that you do not accept > other packagings, and you do consider PDFs universal - but so what? > You may be willing to use yourself as the touchstone of format > approval, but I doubt very many other people will. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B There are only a handful of online document packaging formats with any level of acceptance including but not limited to: PDF, PS, and DjVu. While all of these formats are available PDF is in a whole different class as far as acceptance goes. I dare anyone too survey the number of documents in PDF format vs. all other formats combined. While PDF's are not accepted by all none the less it is the only "universally accepted format". Personally I would prefer DjVu but I don't wish to fight the universe. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Jun 4 18:20:43 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:20:43 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2><000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy><200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42A07F6C.9080306@oldskool.org><200506031829.OAA16651@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><42A0B6EC.9050604@oldskool.org><200506032019.QAA17660@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><00cc01c5687b$7c31c5f0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> <200506032122.RAA18283@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <006301c5695c$0b667960$8d3dd7d1@randy> From: "der Mouse" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 4:08 PM >>> [...] >> Instead of blaming people like myself for doing it "the wrong way" >> why don't you do it and let us judge if we like it your way. > > ...and all of a sudden instead of discussing PDF's actual merits or > lack thereof, you shift to discussing whether it's popular. For me it is simply a matter of what is most popular. There is another format I would prefer to use but it doesn't have enough acceptance. It is my wish that the documents last, the only way to do that is to use PDF's. >> If we like what you are doing better then we can all stop and let you >> do it all ;-) > > I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd rather have PDFs tha > nothing. Documentation in a difficult-to-use format is better than no > documentation at all. > > But if we're discussing the pros and cons of various formats, then it > *is* appropriate to criticize brokennesses in the formats under > discussion. > >> I'll set aside a few giga-bytes for all the manuals you scan. > > Only one, so far, and the directory full of bzip2ed scan files is only > some 42 megs - and that includes the duplicates for the pages I scanned > in greyscale and/or colour as well as lineart. > > ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/misc/EK-KA630-UG-001/ in case you're > curious. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B A few of the documents I've created are over 10MB but post enough and use have many giga-bytes. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Jun 4 18:32:17 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:32:17 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files References: Message-ID: <006a01c5695d$a8ba16d0$8d3dd7d1@randy> From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 6:22 PM >> To decide to not use any particular piece of hardware or software that >> can >> easily and cheaply do a desired job then whine because other people don't >> bend over backwards to support your wishes for no charge is idiotic. > > OK, I am an idiot. You are not the first person to call me that, you > won't be the last. > > IU would agree it's rude to flame somebody because they've not used your > particular choice of file formats (particularly when their choice is > commonplace and youts isn't), but IMHO it's not idiotic to decide to do a > job in a particular way because it's what you consider to be the way you > most enjoy. Particularly when that job is part of a hobby, which you're > doing for your own enjoyment anyway. > > If I decide it's prefereable to produce my own documentation rather than > do battle with a modern PC, that's my business. > > -tony I did not call you an idiot what I said and meant is that it is idiot/crazy to ask others to create a document that only a tiny percentage of the population could do anything with. All methods of packaging documents have draw-backs, PDF's have the fewest. More people can handle the point and click of PDF's than any other format. Even if PDF's were limited to Windoze the simple concept that the likelyhood of the documents being read in the future is worth using it. I am happy that there are many open source tools that make PDF's available to almost 100% of the computing population. So far I've only heard of three people with internet access that have no way of handling PDF's. PDF's are not the only way of distributing docs, snail mail oriented people like Herb Johnson are available to help many. I am surprised that no one has started a small cottage industry and offer to mail printed copies of PDF's, there are a couple of people offering to snail mail CD's/DVD's full of PDF's. Most of my PDF's can be downloaded in 30 minutes or less via dial up modems. Randy www.s100-manuls.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Jun 4 18:42:38 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:42:38 -0500 Subject: SGS UX8-22 CP/M System and WD-1000 controller + Hard Disk References: <018001c56956$538b7700$1502a8c0@ACER><002201c56959$6b2156c0$8d3dd7d1@randy> <018e01c5695a$a3e11ee0$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <009101c5695f$1b3cdbb0$8d3dd7d1@randy> From: "SP" Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 6:10 PM > Thanks for the info, Randy. If you try the WD-1000 emulator project, let > me > know. I should like to see the UX8 accesing one HD. > > Regards > Sergio I don't know your technical skills but if you look at the docs you will see the WD1000 was the start of a series of devices that defined a uniform way of communicating with disk drives that later was called IDE. I'll look at the pinout but I believe that the WD1000 uses a subset of the IDE connector pinout (and software commands). The biggest differences would have to be: 256 byte sector limitation, Geometry is fixed in BIOS. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 4 19:55:52 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 17:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help collecting gear from west of Chicago In-Reply-To: References: <38174.207.145.53.202.1117849025.squirrel@207.145.53.202> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 3, 5 06:37:05 pm Message-ID: <37753.207.145.53.202.1117932952.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tony wrote: > Since the signals on an SPC slot are essentially those on the backplane > interconnecting slots (which is what you're calling Unibus), I think it > would be reasonable to say that the SPC boards are Unibus devices. > Certainly DEC manuals do this (they talk about a Unibus serial board > which is actually an SPC board, etc). Hmmm... most of the manuals seem to make a very definite distinction between Unibus slots and SPC slots and modules. I don't recall ever seeing a reference to a Unibus serial board. But perhaps I didn't pay close enough attention to the use of terminology. Eric From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jun 4 21:54:57 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 21:54:57 -0500 Subject: DATA I/O 29B Modification? References: <3.0.6.32.20050604181108.01808e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <94adf4754d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <005801c56979$f5601040$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Joe wrote... >> A year or two ago there was a webpage that showed how to modify the >> model 29B EPROM Programmer to increase it's memory to 1mb. I didn't >> bookmark it and how I can't find it. Does anyone know the URL for it or >> have a copy of it stored anywhere? Phil replied... > Ooh! I saw that the other day while I was looking for a source of > fuse-PROMs > (82S1xx series? can't remember the P/Ns offhand). Here's the URL: > Yup, that's it... I have it bookmarked too. Matter of fact, I printed off all the pages & instructions & pictures and put them in my bound data I/O 29B manual. I will definitely be doing that mod at some point. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jun 4 21:56:56 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 21:56:56 -0500 Subject: Rescued Items References: <200506040154.j541sNHO078383@dewey.classiccmp.org><94A73D0E-8538-4D08-A664-E9A7829E2A0E@comcast.net> <42A17257.60605@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <006301c5697a$3c8b5ce0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> CRC wrote... >> TI 9900 Boards: >> >> TM990/101MA CPU Board >> TM990/314 ? (has a DB25 and an edge connector - serial?) Then Bill wrote... > I'm interested in the TI boards. > I'll also take the DEC board if nobody else wants it I didn't know there were other TI/990 collectors here :) Nifty! Jay From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Jun 4 22:13:42 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 20:13:42 -0700 Subject: DATA I/O 29B Modification? Message-ID: <001801c5697c$98065460$0300a8c0@downstairs2> My favorite error code from the Data I/O System 19 (the predecessor to the 29) was the one when you did not have enough RAM install to program the PROM you selected. If you looked up the corrective action in the manual it said to install more RAM or program smaller parts. Michael Holley. From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Jun 4 22:16:59 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:16:59 -0500 Subject: 8" DSDD disk References: <004e01c56954$774447a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <000c01c5697d$0cbba620$6792d6d1@randy> I think it's time to get rich quick: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74947&item=5205357000&rd=1 8" DSDD disk you can buy for $20.00 & $5.00 S&H. If anyone has an extra $250.00 I can send them 10 and I'll even throw in a plastic carrying case ;-) Randy www.s100-manuals.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 4 22:27:42 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:27:42 -0400 Subject: Rescued Items Message-ID: <0IHL001TTDKMS7Z6@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Rescued Items > From: "Jay West" > Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 21:56:56 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >CRC wrote... >>> TI 9900 Boards: >>> >>> TM990/101MA CPU Board >>> TM990/314 ? (has a DB25 and an edge connector - serial?) > >Then Bill wrote... >> I'm interested in the TI boards. >> I'll also take the DEC board if nobody else wants it > >I didn't know there were other TI/990 collectors here :) Nifty! > >Jay Whats unusual about that? I have several of the 99/4a systems and a Technico SuperStarter system. If someone hadn't beat me I'd have asked for them. Allison From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jun 4 22:30:56 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:30:56 -0500 Subject: Rescued Items References: <0IHL001TTDKMS7Z6@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <000c01c5697e$fca75e30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Allison wrote... > Whats unusual about that? I have several of the 99/4a systems and > a Technico SuperStarter system. If someone hadn't beat me I'd have > asked for them. There's a *HUGE* difference between a TI99/4a, and a TI/990. Like about 400 pounds :> Jay From jcwren at jcwren.com Sat Jun 4 22:42:15 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:42:15 -0400 Subject: 8" DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <000c01c5697d$0cbba620$6792d6d1@randy> References: <004e01c56954$774447a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <000c01c5697d$0cbba620$6792d6d1@randy> Message-ID: <42A27497.1050604@jcwren.com> Someone actually *paid* $20 for one, already. --jc Randy McLaughlin wrote: > I think it's time to get rich quick: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74947&item=5205357000&rd=1 > > > > 8" DSDD disk you can buy for $20.00 & $5.00 S&H. > > If anyone has an extra $250.00 I can send them 10 and I'll even throw > in a plastic carrying case ;-) > > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com > > From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Jun 4 23:04:34 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:04:34 -0500 Subject: 8" DSDD disk References: <004e01c56954$774447a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza><000c01c5697d$0cbba620$6792d6d1@randy> <42A27497.1050604@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <000a01c56983$b2bf4940$103dd7d1@randy> From: "J.C. Wren" Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 10:42 PM > Someone actually *paid* $20 for one, already. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74947&item=5184010369 Atleast that one has something on it :) > --jc > > Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> I think it's time to get rich quick: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74947&item=5205357000&rd=1 >> 8" DSDD disk you can buy for $20.00 & $5.00 S&H. >> >> If anyone has an extra $250.00 I can send them 10 and I'll even throw in >> a plastic carrying case ;-) >> >> Randy >> www.s100-manuals.com A long time ago I saw a $15 auction for a used 8" disk with no picture. I misread it thinking is was a drive and bought it :-{ When it arrived I quickly looked up the auction again and sure enough it said disk not disk drive. I've got 100's of disks I didn't need a $15 disk. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Jun 5 03:22:53 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 09:22:53 +0100 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:03:38 BST." Message-ID: <200506050822.JAA06326@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > > > > > > > Presumably the punch tool has a limit as to how far from the edges of a > > > piece it can reach? > > > > > There was a "Q-Max" D type punch, don't know if it is still available, but > > that could be used to pace a hole anywhere in a sheet of metal (it is pulled > > through with a bolt, so doesn't need a press of any kind). > > That's the type I have. It's not a Q-Max brand, it's RS > (http://www.rswww.com/ IIRC). I've never seen an odd-shaped genuine Q-Max > cutter (I know they did make sqyare and rectangular ones, though). There were some odd-shaped ones like DB-9 and -25 and SO239 with a flat on one side for nut fixing sockets. I've not seen any for years, and I would have bought them if I had :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From news at computercollector.com Sun Jun 5 05:30:07 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 06:30:07 -0400 Subject: A (sort of) .rss feed for Computer Collector Newsletter Message-ID: <200506051029.j55ATXhq092177@dewey.classiccmp.org> Hi cctalk'ers, I think it's really, really, important to make more people aware of our hobby, so I finally created an .rss feed for the newsletter. Well, sort of. Instead of syndicating ALL of the articles, I'm only syndicating summaries of each issue's highlights, with hyperlinks back to the "Subscribe here!" page. That way, newbies can get an idea of what CCN is all about, and then read more if they desire. I would be very grateful if anyone chooses to include the feed on their web sites. You'd be doing the hobby a favor. The file is http://www.snarc.net/ccn.xml ... It applies to the most recent 14 issues; each week I'll update it with the FIFO method. Also: this is my first-ever shot at doing .rss, so if you experts out there spot any obvious mistakes, please tell me in a PRIVATE message to news at computercollector.com. No need to make newbie .rss blunders into a cctalk topic, right? :) ...And now back to our regularly scheduled yapping about Nascom keyboard connectors, Pozidriv, .PDF manipulation, etc. - Evan K. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 735 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From cc at corti-net.de Sun Jun 5 05:44:34 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 12:44:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: punches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: >>> [1] The first 3 I ever bought, over 25 years ago, were 5/8", 3/4" and >>> 1+1/8". Why? >> seven-pin, nine-pin and octal tube sockets? > Exactly. We call the first 2 'B7G' and 'B9A' over here, BTW. We call the first two 'miniature' and 'noval'. Christian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 5 06:15:30 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 11:15:30 +0000 Subject: 8" DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <000c01c5697d$0cbba620$6792d6d1@randy> References: <004e01c56954$774447a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <000c01c5697d$0cbba620$6792d6d1@randy> Message-ID: <1117970130.23364.1.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-06-04 at 22:16 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > I think it's time to get rich quick: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74947&item=5205357000&rd=1 > > > 8" DSDD disk you can buy for $20.00 & $5.00 S&H. Good grief. I thought that was going to be a drive, not just a floppy! From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Jun 5 06:46:04 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 04:46:04 -0700 Subject: Rescued Items In-Reply-To: <006301c5697a$3c8b5ce0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200506040154.j541sNHO078383@dewey.classiccmp.org><94A73D0E-8538-4D08-A664-E9A7829E2A0E@comcast.net> <42A17257.60605@pacbell.net> <006301c5697a$3c8b5ce0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42A2E5FC.9090203@pacbell.net> Jay West wrote: > CRC wrote... > >>> TI 9900 Boards: >>> >>> TM990/101MA CPU Board >>> TM990/314 ? (has a DB25 and an edge connector - serial?) > > > Then Bill wrote... > >> I'm interested in the TI boards. >> I'll also take the DEC board if nobody else wants it > > > I didn't know there were other TI/990 collectors here :) Nifty! > > Jay I have the sad carcass of a possibly restorable 990/4 CPU, sold as a mini, but based on the TMS9900 and not terribly well-built. (The front panel switches are calculator buttions using the same collapsing dome technology as the old TI-30 calculator I used to own, and have gone bad in the same way the calculator keys did.) I don't recognize these boards from the numbers, but I was hoping they would either match this machine as spares, or perhaps would serve as bait to bring a nicer 990 my way. ;) Architecturally, the TI990/TMS9900 is interesting, but the TI99/A home computer was an abominably bad design and I can't bring myself to own one. I mostly avoid micros, but I do have a weakness for blinkenlights front panels wherever they are found. :) --Bill From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jun 5 07:06:13 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:06:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <1117970130.23364.1.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <004e01c56954$774447a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <000c01c5697d$0cbba620$6792d6d1@randy> <1117970130.23364.1.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1525.192.168.0.10.1117973173.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Thanks to a lucky find in the garage yesterday here's the pinout for the keyboard connector at PL3, NOT PL2 as that carries 12V..... 01 D0 02 +5V 03 D1 04 NMLSW 05 D2 06 IC24/15 (Q5) 07 D3 08 IC24/7 (Q2) 09 D4 10 RESET SWITCH 11 D5 12 IC24/2 (Q0) 13 D6 14 IC24/5 (Q1) 15 D7 16 GND Jules, this means you should be able to use a D15 and have the reset switch on the bot itself :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From spedraja at ono.com Sun Jun 5 08:05:12 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:05:12 +0200 Subject: Heath/Zenith H/Z-100 References: <004e01c56954$774447a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza><000c01c5697d$0cbba620$6792d6d1@randy><1117970130.23364.1.camel@weka.localdomain> <1525.192.168.0.10.1117973173.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <002f01c569cf$35a4b2a0$1502a8c0@ACER> Due to the categorical-no-exceptions-for-bidders-out-of-usa of this auction, I think it would be great if someone could save this computer and its "in appeareance" huge lot of companion diskettes. http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5205240425&r d=1 Regards Sergio From spedraja at ono.com Sun Jun 5 08:08:11 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:08:11 +0200 Subject: Altos References: <004e01c56954$774447a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza><000c01c5697d$0cbba620$6792d6d1@randy><1117970130.23364.1.camel@weka.localdomain> <1525.192.168.0.10.1117973173.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <003301c569cf$a07e5db0$1502a8c0@ACER> And, for the same reason than the other auction, perhaps someone would be interested in purchase this machine. Pretty. http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5203856971&r d=1 From spedraja at ono.com Sun Jun 5 08:10:54 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:10:54 +0200 Subject: Altos 486 power supply References: <004e01c56954$774447a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza><000c01c5697d$0cbba620$6792d6d1@randy><1117970130.23364.1.camel@weka.localdomain><1525.192.168.0.10.1117973173.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <002f01c569cf$35a4b2a0$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <003f01c569d0$01231e80$1502a8c0@ACER> This is a request: Someone has or know of some place where I could locate and obtain one PS for one Altos 486 (not an Intel machine, is from the beginning of the eighties) that I own ? I need it complete. Thanks Sergio From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 5 08:19:17 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 09:19:17 -0400 Subject: S100 address buss troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <004e01c56954$774447a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050605091917.00998bf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> That should be easy enough to troubleshoot. Use a logic probe or your logic analyzer to monitor the A13 line while you remove the CPU and memory cards one at a time. You should quickly find which is causing the problem. If you pull all the cards and the bit is still stuck then it's time to troubleshoot the front panel. You can do the same for the stuck A7 bit. Then check before and after the address buffers on the defective cards. You'll probably find a defective buffer or a memory IC with a stuck bit. If the ICs are socketed it should be quick to troubleshoot. One thing to be aware of is if you have a non-inverting buffer on the line and the buffer's input is floating due to a poor connection then it will force the buffer's output high so check the buffers carefully. Some of the old ICs can be a real bitch to troubleshoot. I've seen some that had hairline cracks right where the lead enters the IC body. The lead would be driven high or low but the input to the IC was actually floating and that forced the output high or low. This is one of the big problems that I found with socketed ICs. The socket and IC lead are made of different materials and cause electrolysis. They would look ok but the IC leads frequently fell off the IC bodies if I tried to remove them from the socket. I seldom find this in military or high grade commercail equipment since they use high grade parts and pay attention to details like this (dissimilair material) but it's common in cheap commercail or hobby grade equipment. I worked on a RCA VIP a couple of years ago that was full of ICs like this. I've also seen the same promblem in several Heathkit 6800 trainers. Storage is humid conditions definitely aggravates the problem. Joe At 06:26 PM 6/4/05 -0400, you wrote: >All: > > After verifying the power supply, I'm now starting to play with the >system. I put in the CPU board (TDL Z80) and three 16k memory boards. >Reading and writing data to memory seems to work, but frequently I'll get >the A13 and A7 LEDs stuck ON. If I toggle RESET, the LEDs clear but on my >first EXAMINE, A13 and A7 go on. > > Things I have not done yet: > * loaded any programs or tried to verify memory fully > * cleaned any board contacts > > If I pull one of the memory boards, the A7 problem goes away but A13 >stays on all the time, leading me to believe that that issue is either on >the CPU card or the front panel card. > > How does one troubleshoot a stuck-bit problem in these systems? I do >have a 12-bit logic analyzer on a laptop (uses the parallel port) but I >haven't pulled that out yet. > > Thanks. > >Rich > >Rich Cini >Collector of classic computers >Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project >Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >/************************************************************/ > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 5 07:54:16 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 08:54:16 -0400 Subject: DATA I/O 29B Modification? In-Reply-To: <94adf4754d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050604181108.01808e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050604181108.01808e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050605085416.00a40810@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> That's it. Thanks. Joe At 11:55 PM 6/4/05 +0100, you wrote: >In message <3.0.6.32.20050604181108.01808e60 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> > "Joe R." wrote: > >> A year or two ago there was a webpage that showed how to modify the >> model 29B EPROM Programmer to increase it's memory to 1mb. I didn't >> bookmark it and how I can't find it. Does anyone know the URL for it or >> have a copy of it stored anywhere? > >Ooh! I saw that the other day while I was looking for a source of fuse-PROMs >(82S1xx series? can't remember the P/Ns offhand). Here's the URL: > > >Later. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >... Some minds should be cultivated, others ploughed under...? > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 5 08:43:42 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 09:43:42 -0400 Subject: Rescued Items Message-ID: <0IHM00J5T634INZ3@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Rescued Items > From: "Jay West" > Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:30:56 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Allison wrote... >> Whats unusual about that? I have several of the 99/4a systems and >> a Technico SuperStarter system. If someone hadn't beat me I'd have >> asked for them. > >There's a *HUGE* difference between a TI99/4a, and a TI/990. Like about 400 >pounds :> > >Jay Yep! I want one!!! ;) On the real front I'm looking for the TI9900 (cpu chip) based stuff. They are a bit lighter. Allison From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 5 08:54:28 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 09:54:28 -0400 Subject: 9900 CPU was:Re: Rescued Items In-Reply-To: <0IHM00J5T634INZ3@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050605095428.00a4c980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:43 AM 6/5/05 -0400, Allison wrote: >> > >Yep! I want one!!! ;) > >On the real front I'm looking for the TI9900 (cpu chip) based stuff. >They are a bit lighter. Check out the Fluke equipment including the Fluke 1722A GP-IB Instrument Controller. Fluke used the 9900 in a lot of their stuff. The 1722 is similar to the HP 9915 and Tektronix 4041 and uses the 9900 CPU. I have a complete set of docs for it if you find one. I think I have the DOS disk for it as well. Hmm. I just checked E-bay and there's one for sale there now . They want way too much for it but it does include the hard to find programmer's keyboard. There are a couple others for sale there as well . joe From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 5 09:30:51 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 10:30:51 -0400 Subject: 9900 CPU was:Re: Rescued Items Message-ID: <0IHM008GK89PWX60@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: 9900 CPU was:Re: Rescued Items > From: "Joe R." > Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 09:54:28 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At 09:43 AM 6/5/05 -0400, Allison wrote: >>> >> >>Yep! I want one!!! ;) >> >>On the real front I'm looking for the TI9900 (cpu chip) based stuff. >>They are a bit lighter. > > Check out the Fluke equipment including the Fluke 1722A GP-IB Instrument >Controller. Fluke used the 9900 in a lot of their stuff. The 1722 is >similar to the HP 9915 and Tektronix 4041 and uses the 9900 CPU. I have a >complete set of docs for it if you find one. I think I have the DOS disk >for it as well. I have raw 9900 chips but TI made both a system and board level products using that CPU. The tek and fluke equipment I know about but they don't thrill me. > Hmm. I just checked E-bay and there's one for sale there now >>. They want way too much for it but it does include the hard to find >programmer's keyboard. There are a couple others for sale there as well >jsZ1>. I don't do Ebay. It involves more trust that I am able to muster. >From what I've seen more monies lost than I care to loose. Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jun 5 09:50:59 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 09:50:59 -0500 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050605095059.37d6a0a1.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:09:38 +0200 Bj??rn Vermo wrote: > On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:18:29 +0200, Eric Smith > wrote: > > > Bj??rn Vermo wrote: > > >> Please do not waste any time making new PDF documents, > > > > Please don't waste any time complaining about PDF documents. In > > many cases, you're lucky to get the data in any form at all. > > > > You do not get my point: Instead of adding an extra step to make PDF > files, I think it is better to keep the raw scans. Preferably as PNGs, > but if the scanner software does not provide that, TIFF is workable. > It isn't an 'extra step' in all instances. I have a motorized sheet-feed scanner that Adobe Acrobat recognizes. I can open Acrobat and tell it to do 'double side capture' and it will happily sheet-feed through the first side of a stack of pages, then prompt me to pile them 'other side down' on the scanner and scan them again. Then it will automatically interleaf the scanned pages as sequential pages. It doesn't get 'easier' than that, and any other method requires significantly more steps. And TIFF scanning (where you end up with an odd directory full of images, hopefully with filenames that properly indicate the page sequence) is a LOT more work. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 5 10:00:23 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 11:00:23 -0400 Subject: 9900 CPU was:Re: Rescued Items In-Reply-To: <0IHM008GK89PWX60@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IHM008GK89PWX60@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <42A31387.nail6GB11EZVL@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Allison wrote: > I don't do Ebay. It involves more trust than I am able to muster. > From what I've seen more monies lost than I care to loose. Most sellers and buyers are perfectly honest. What hurts me (more emotionally than financially!) is when I buy something heavy and fragile, and the seller is so naive that he packs it poorly and it arrives banged up, damaged, or broken. Usually it's obvious that there was insufficient packaging - e.g. 70 lb items put in lightweight cardboard boxes filled with just styrofoam fuzzies. But I feel bad going after the seller, because he honestly thought that shipping insurance would cover his carelessness. Clearly he was mistaken. OTOH not going after the sellers who are careless like this encourages them to continue shoddy packaging. The big-time test equipment sellers I've dealt with have always done exceptionally good packaging jobs. These guys are always up-front about the cost of packaging materials, because they've done it hundreds of times before and know how to make it survive the hazards of UPS guys kicking the box off the back of a moving truck. I have no qualms at all dealing with such sellers! Tim. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jun 5 10:05:50 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 10:05:50 -0500 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> <1117746933.18403.128.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506030419.AAA12463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17056.26004.372451.328190@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1117809276.20268.93.camel@weka.localdomain> <003801c5684e$df654160$773cd7d1@randy> <1117813737.20286.100.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506031828.OAA16633@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050605100550.44a6fde3.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:01:48 -0700 "vrs" wrote: > From: "der Mouse" > > As of 2005-01-30 I found > > http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/en/pdf/PDFReference16.pdf, > > and it was there when I checked sometime later this year (I don't > > have any record of that date). > > > > I note it's a PDF file, which makes for an amusing checken-and-egg > > problem in principle. :-) > > Even in practice, since the darned thing appears to be in PDF 1.6 > format(which my Acrobat 4.0 doesn't seem able to read). > > Vince > The 'feature creep' problem with Adobe Acrobat is one of the things that really bugs me about it. I paid full retail for Version 3.0 and then Version 4.0. Now I find that I have to download a crummy 'free reader' to even read a lot of the PDF documents available online. And then the crummy 'free' reader' takes over the PDF extension in Windoze. Adobe is screwing up, pissing off paying customers, by allowing 'feature creep' into the spec. Use a different extension than 'PDF' if you're going to break the format. It gets me mad enough to refuse to create PDF files with newer than 3.0 features. But am I screwing things up for people who paid for the 2.0 product? Adobe is a lot like Microsoft, with their Office file formats. From vrs at msn.com Sun Jun 5 10:15:25 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:15:25 -0700 Subject: Ebay trust (was Re: 9900 CPU was:Re: Rescued Items) References: <0IHM008GK89PWX60@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: From: "Allison" > I don't do Ebay. It involves more trust that I am able to muster. > From what I've seen more monies lost than I care to loose. While I understand this sentiment, I have never been ripped off on eBay. In my experience (admittedly mostly limited to classic DEC gear) the vast majority of eBay sellers are a pleasure to do business with. The few problems I have had are with amateurs who don't know how to pack things, and small problems, like people who sell me stuff, then have to refund my money because they can't find the item under their huge piles of clutter (has happened 3 times in as many years). But everyone has been good about refunding my money or working to make things right. And the transactions that go without a hitch have been well above 90%. I am sure there are rip-offs on eBay somewhere, but I haven't seen them. Vince From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jun 5 10:20:18 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 10:20:18 -0500 Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: <200506012216.SAA03395@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200506012048.NAA02451@clulw009.amd.com> <20050601142300.L46266@shell.lmi.net> <002901c566f0$f1009aa0$f53cd7d1@randy> <200506012216.SAA03395@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050605102018.77fdb8aa.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:14:53 -0400 (EDT) der Mouse wrote: > >>> My first repair job was when I used a butter knife on the toaster > >> a good start, and hopefully you have better tools now :-) > > Personally I still find myself places I have to check the cutlery to > > repair something (when I'm at someone elses house). > > There's a reason I always carry my Swiss Army knife. :-) (It's not a > very elaborate one, and not nearly up to comparison with, say, a > Leatherman, but it's pretty versatile given a little imagination.) > The 'Tinker' model of Swiss Army Knife has just about anything required, I find. A few times at work I've taken it as a personal challange (translate: getting paid to fiddle around) to build an entire test fixture using just the swiss army knife. It can drill holes for the screws, turn the screws in, etc. That's for 'breadboard' grade fixtures that just use plywood for the base, terminal strips, etc. Sometimes minimalism is fun. For awhile. From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Sun Jun 5 10:36:32 2005 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 11:36:32 -0400 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation Message-ID: <42A31C00.3C1E898A@buckeye-express.com> Jules wrote: > Personally I like the accountability; > I'd like to know who scanned a document, > when they scanned it, what software > they used to do the scan. As someone who scans documents and distributes the PDF's (mostly Apple II stuff), I prefer to remain anonymous. Sure, the stuff is so old and mostly the companies no longer exist, but I *am* violating someone's copyright. -- Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Jun 5 10:55:55 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 16:55:55 +0100 Subject: 9900 CPU was:Re: Rescued Items In-Reply-To: <42A31387.nail6GB11EZVL@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <0IHM008GK89PWX60@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <42A31387.nail6GB11EZVL@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <7b2052764d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <42A31387.nail6GB11EZVL at mini-me.trailing-edge.com> shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > The big-time test equipment sellers I've dealt with have always done > exceptionally good packaging jobs. These guys are always up-front about > the cost of packaging materials, because they've done it hundreds of > times before and know how to make it survive the hazards of UPS guys > kicking the box off the back of a moving truck. I have no qualms at > all dealing with such sellers! I had an oscilloscope shipped from Leeds to Guernsey a few months back and wrapped it in as much bubblewrap as the box would take without splitting. Six layers minimum on each side, plus two layers around the cables. I spent about an hour cutting bits of bubblewrap and cardboard to protect the front panel... Yes, it arrived intact at the other end, though a little worse for wear - apparently one of the delivery guys at the depot dropped a box full of strawberry jam, which left a rather nasty mess on the box. I think I ended up using a roll and a half of bubblewrap just for the scope. The recipient said it took him 20 minutes to get all the bubblewrap off :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 5 11:31:52 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 12:31:52 -0400 Subject: 9900 CPU was:Re: Rescued Items In-Reply-To: <7b2052764d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <0IHM008GK89PWX60@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <42A31387.nail6GB11EZVL@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <7b2052764d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <42A328F8.nail73Q11PLNB@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > I think I ended up using a roll and a half of bubblewrap just for the > scope. It's great you used lots of bubblewrap, but that's not enough to cope with the abuse UPS puts on packages here in the US. You'd definitely need to at least double-box, and probably need corner protectors and some sort of hollow cap to cover knobs and connectors on the front. Just imagine what would happen to your scope if it was dropped on a corner of the face from a height of 6 feet or so. That's entirely typical of the handling I see. Tim. From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 5 11:41:55 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 11:41:55 -0500 Subject: S100 address buss troubleshooting References: <3.0.6.32.20050605091917.00998bf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <003c01c569ed$7f3dcf50$aa3dd7d1@randy> One thing to remember is that the filter caps of an Imsai are much larger than an Altair and the bleed down dime is MUCH longer. Be careful after turning off the computer and don't pull the cards until you are sure the voltage levels have dropped enough to not damage the cards. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 5 11:49:33 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 12:49:33 -0400 Subject: S100 address buss troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <003c01c569ed$7f3dcf50$aa3dd7d1@randy> References: <3.0.6.32.20050605091917.00998bf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <003c01c569ed$7f3dcf50$aa3dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <42A32D1D.nail77N11PJV8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Be careful after turning off the computer and don't pull the cards > until you are sure the voltage levels have dropped For that matter, if yours has a power switch on the front panel, be careful what you touch in the vicinity of that switch, even after you've turned it off! The rightmost switch was truly a "user wires it how he wants" switch, and when you bought an IMSAI it came with artwork to let you make a transparency layer that matched the function you chose. (Which is why I find these arguments about keeping original front panel transparencies so amusing.) Tim. From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 5 11:53:35 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 11:53:35 -0500 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com><8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com><35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050605095059.37d6a0a1.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006901c569ef$20808140$aa3dd7d1@randy> From: "Scott Stevens" Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 9:50 AM > On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:09:38 +0200 > Bj??rn Vermo wrote: > >> On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 04:18:29 +0200, Eric Smith >> wrote: >> >>> Bj??rn Vermo wrote: >> >>>> Please do not waste any time making new PDF documents, >>> >>> Please don't waste any time complaining about PDF documents. In >>> many cases, you're lucky to get the data in any form at all. >> >> You do not get my point: Instead of adding an extra step to make PDF >> files, I think it is better to keep the raw scans. Preferably as PNGs, >> but if the scanner software does not provide that, TIFF is workable. >> > It isn't an 'extra step' in all instances. I have a motorized > sheet-feed scanner that Adobe Acrobat recognizes. I can open Acrobat > and tell it to do 'double side capture' and it will happily sheet-feed > through the first side of a stack of pages, then prompt me to pile them > 'other side down' on the scanner and scan them again. Then it will > automatically interleaf the scanned pages as sequential pages. > > It doesn't get 'easier' than that, and any other method requires > significantly more steps. And TIFF scanning (where you end up with an > odd directory full of images, hopefully with filenames that properly > indicate the page sequence) is a LOT more work. Adobe Acrobat has no intermediate files but other open source programs do. Even if there are intermediate files the thing is still to produce the PDF, that is the package that is useful to the majority. Remember we are not creating PDF's for ourselves and we are not creating PDF's for any individual we are creating PDF's to share with the majority. Each PDF can have totally different internal structure and only the PDF wrapper gives them a consistent face. If anyone can not handle the PDF or just won't deal with them then please remember this: That's OK you don't have to have access to them, you are no worse off for not having them just don't expect others to do anything special for you. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 5 12:07:25 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 12:07:25 -0500 Subject: S100 address buss troubleshooting References: <3.0.6.32.20050605091917.00998bf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><003c01c569ed$7f3dcf50$aa3dd7d1@randy> <42A32D1D.nail77N11PJV8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <008501c569f1$1005af50$aa3dd7d1@randy> From: Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 11:49 AM >> Be careful after turning off the computer and don't pull the cards >> until you are sure the voltage levels have dropped > > For that matter, if yours has a power switch on the front panel, be > careful what you touch in the vicinity of that switch, even after > you've turned it off! > > The rightmost switch was truly a "user wires it how he wants" switch, > and when you bought an IMSAI it came with artwork to let you make a > transparency layer that matched the function you chose. (Which is > why I find these arguments about keeping original front panel > transparencies so amusing.) > > Tim. All of the S100 systems I've dealt with have had the line power exposed somewhere, none would ever pass UL testing. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 12:28:55 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:28:55 -0400 Subject: Ebay trust (was Re: 9900 CPU was:Re: Rescued Items) In-Reply-To: References: <0IHM008GK89PWX60@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 6/5/05, vrs wrote: > From: "Allison" > > I don't do Ebay. It involves more trust that I am able to muster. > > From what I've seen more monies lost than I care to loose. > > While I understand this sentiment, I have never been ripped off on eBay. In > my experience (admittedly mostly limited to classic DEC gear) the vast > majority of eBay sellers are a pleasure to do business with. The few > problems I have had are with amateurs who don't know how to pack things, and > small problems, like people who sell me stuff, then have to refund my money > because they can't find the item under their huge piles of clutter (has > happened 3 times in as many years). > > But everyone has been good about refunding my money or working to make > things right. And the transactions that go without a hitch have been well > above 90%. > > I am sure there are rip-offs on eBay somewhere, but I haven't seen them. If you avoid other countries, avoid western union, avoid fancy items (new laptop, digital camera, etc) you are almost sure to be free from trouble. vax, 9000 > > Vince > > From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sun Jun 5 13:29:56 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 20:29:56 +0200 Subject: IBM S/36 5363 Maintenance Information Manual Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050605202859.0392fd10@pop.xs4all.nl> Anybody interested in : IBM System/36 5363 System Unit Maintenance Information Manual. Partnumber SY31-9054-4. Fifth edition March 1989. Also includes the System Reference Codes and some original floppies like support and diagnostic Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 13:27:47 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 14:27:47 -0400 Subject: 9900 CPU was:Re: Rescued Items In-Reply-To: <42A328F8.nail73Q11PLNB@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <0IHM008GK89PWX60@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <42A31387.nail6GB11EZVL@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <7b2052764d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <42A328F8.nail73Q11PLNB@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On 6/5/05, shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > > I think I ended up using a roll and a half of bubblewrap just for the > > scope. > > Just imagine what would happen to your scope if it was dropped on a > corner of the face from a height of 6 feet or so. That's entirely > typical of the handling I see. I've said it here before, and I'll say it again - don't ship UPS unless your packaging job can withstand the parcel being hurled from a car at 30mph because they have a conveyer that's 4 feet off the ground, moving at that speed, and *stuff falls off the belt every day*. Good point about the hollow-box knob protectors... I brought back my Poptronics Elf in a box of electronic stuff on an airplane, and there must have been some pressure on the crystal (highest point on the board), because the board is now cracked (not obliterated) in the middle. Next time, I'll build a cage for it to prevent any reoccurrance. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 13:27:47 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 14:27:47 -0400 Subject: 9900 CPU was:Re: Rescued Items In-Reply-To: <42A328F8.nail73Q11PLNB@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <0IHM008GK89PWX60@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <42A31387.nail6GB11EZVL@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <7b2052764d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <42A328F8.nail73Q11PLNB@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On 6/5/05, shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > > I think I ended up using a roll and a half of bubblewrap just for the > > scope. > > Just imagine what would happen to your scope if it was dropped on a > corner of the face from a height of 6 feet or so. That's entirely > typical of the handling I see. I've said it here before, and I'll say it again - don't ship UPS unless your packaging job can withstand the parcel being hurled from a car at 30mph because they have a conveyer that's 4 feet off the ground, moving at that speed, and *stuff falls off the belt every day*. Good point about the hollow-box knob protectors... I brought back my Poptronics Elf in a box of electronic stuff on an airplane, and there must have been some pressure on the crystal (highest point on the board), because the board is now cracked (not obliterated) in the middle. Next time, I'll build a cage for it to prevent any reoccurrance. -ethan From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Sun Jun 5 13:36:51 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 14:36:51 -0400 Subject: VT-180 disks Message-ID: I have three 5 1/4 inch disks for the DEC VT-180 that I don't need as I have given away my VT-180. These disks are marked: DEC VT-180 CP/M-2.2 System SSDD DEC VT-180 Kermit SSDD DEC VT-180 Diagnostics SSDD They are original disks that come in sleeves marked: NEWTAP - NAVEDTRANSUPPCENPAC, San Diego, CA On the back they say: Commanding Officer Naval Education and Training Support Center, Pacific Attn: NAVSTAD N64 San Diego, CA 92132-5105 Anyone have any interest in these? I don't know if they are readable but the look to be in good condition. From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun Jun 5 13:40:56 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 14:40:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: For Sale: Computer collection: CPM, Amiga, Sun, lots of DEC (including VAX11-750) Chicago area In-Reply-To: <8a83fa380506040956a0efc66@mail.gmail.com> References: <8a83fa380506040956a0efc66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Stan Johnson wrote: > I'll take 20 to 40 dollars for each machine > (with three exceptions), the price per machine > goes down if you take multiples. First reply > gets an item unless someone will show up to > take everything. Reply directly to me by email to > keep the extra traffic off the list. I'll try > to start getting back to people by the middle of > next week. (I'll wait a few days to see if by > chance someone will take everything - best case.) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Next Cube Sorry for the noise, but this needed to go to Stan + the list: If the NeXT Cube is still available and someone on the list can pick it up and ship it to me, let's talk. If NeXT slab is color model, I'd be interested in that as well. Steve From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jun 5 14:25:15 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 15:25:15 -0400 Subject: S100 address buss troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <008501c569f1$1005af50$aa3dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <007701c56a04$4ce88f10$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Interestingly, in this unit, the front panel power switch is not used. There is a jumper on the PC board which bridges the connector for the switch. A new power switch was inserted in the back panel and wired directly in the line. About the UL listing, I thought it interesting how exposed line voltage was. It's very easy to touch line voltage if you're not careful. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Randy McLaughlin Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:07 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: S100 address buss troubleshooting From: Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 11:49 AM >> Be careful after turning off the computer and don't pull the cards >> until you are sure the voltage levels have dropped > > For that matter, if yours has a power switch on the front panel, be > careful what you touch in the vicinity of that switch, even after > you've turned it off! > > The rightmost switch was truly a "user wires it how he wants" switch, > and when you bought an IMSAI it came with artwork to let you make a > transparency layer that matched the function you chose. (Which is why > I find these arguments about keeping original front panel > transparencies so amusing.) > > Tim. All of the S100 systems I've dealt with have had the line power exposed somewhere, none would ever pass UL testing. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 5 14:24:59 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ebay trust (was Re: 9900 CPU was:Re: Rescued Items) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > If you avoid other countries, avoid western union, avoid fancy items > (new laptop, digital camera, etc) you are almost sure to be free from > trouble. I am one of these seller, and even I avoid Western Union transfers like the plague. All three times a buyer has used it, something was not smooth (everything wrked in the end, however). Western Union Bidpay, on the other hand, now works just fine, and I prefer it to Paypal. For the record, I finally got ripped off on Ebay, after nearly seven years. Luckily I am out only ten bucks. Now deadbeat buyers, on the other hand... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 5 14:39:09 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 14:39:09 -0500 Subject: S100 address buss troubleshooting References: <007701c56a04$4ce88f10$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <001201c56a06$41e71b20$403dd7d1@randy> From: "Richard A. Cini" Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 2:25 PM > Interestingly, in this unit, the front panel power switch is not used. > There is a jumper on the PC board which bridges the connector for the > switch. A new power switch was inserted in the back panel and wired > directly in the line. > > About the UL listing, I thought it interesting how exposed line voltage > was. It's very easy to touch line voltage if you're not careful. > > > Rich In the 70's it was assumed that you knew what you were doing today a device that is designed to be user serviceable with open line voltages would never pass muster. Imsai built to a high standard but they assumed they customer had basic understanding of electricity. Recently there was a power blackout where I live. I started up my gas generator (5500 watts) and used high quality extension cords to hook up the TV, satellite reciever, and refidgerator, and some lights. My neighbor had a tiny generator (800 watts) he knew nothing about. I helped him get his going and told him to get a good extension cord, I plugged it in and handed him the other end and told him to use that for power. He pointed out that the cord had a female socket and asked how to plug it into the house wiring to power the whole house :) Randy > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Randy McLaughlin > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:07 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: S100 address buss troubleshooting > > > From: > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 11:49 AM > > >>> Be careful after turning off the computer and don't pull the cards >>> until you are sure the voltage levels have dropped >> >> For that matter, if yours has a power switch on the front panel, be >> careful what you touch in the vicinity of that switch, even after >> you've turned it off! >> >> The rightmost switch was truly a "user wires it how he wants" switch, >> and when you bought an IMSAI it came with artwork to let you make a >> transparency layer that matched the function you chose. (Which is why > >> I find these arguments about keeping original front panel >> transparencies so amusing.) >> >> Tim. > > > All of the S100 systems I've dealt with have had the line power exposed > somewhere, none would ever pass UL testing. > > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com > > From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jun 5 14:46:41 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 15:46:41 -0400 Subject: S100 Buss extender boards Message-ID: <007801c56a07$4cc19ec0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: Part of the goodies that came with my IMSAI was a buss extender board which has a logic probe on it, which I definitely use for troubleshooting this stuck bit problem. One of the transistors on the board has a lead that's broken at the case. The designation on the transistor is "F444". There's a second transistor marked "F137" which also seems to have shakey leads. The board is manufactured by Mullen Computer Boards, model TB-1. Can anyone cross these numbers to a current replacement? Googling has come up with a possibility for the F444 but nothing for the F137. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 14:54:29 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:54:29 -0400 Subject: S100 address buss troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <001201c56a06$41e71b20$403dd7d1@randy> References: <007701c56a04$4ce88f10$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <001201c56a06$41e71b20$403dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: On 6/5/05, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > Recently there was a power blackout where I live. I started up my gas > generator (5500 watts) and used high quality extension cords to hook up the > TV, satellite reciever, and refidgerator, and some lights. My neighbor had > a tiny generator (800 watts) he knew nothing about. I helped him get his > going and told him to get a good extension cord, I plugged it in and handed > him the other end and told him to use that for power. He pointed out that > the cord had a female socket and asked how to plug it into the house wiring > to power the whole house :) Were you later able to read by the glow from the remains of his house? -ethan From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jun 5 15:03:26 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 16:03:26 -0400 Subject: 9900 CPU was:Re: Rescued Items Message-ID: <20050605200325.DCAP5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> Just imagine what would happen to your scope if it was dropped on a >> corner of the face from a height of 6 feet or so. That's entirely >> typical of the handling I see. > >I've said it here before, and I'll say it again - don't ship UPS >unless your packaging job can withstand the parcel being hurled from a >car at 30mph because they have a conveyer that's 4 feet off the >ground, moving at that speed, and *stuff falls off the belt every >day*. Airlines aren't much better ... I once drove to visit my Parents on the east coast, and on the way back, I hit a spot of ice and rolled by car - complete write-off. I had an Apple][ clone with me in a suitcase, and it sailed past me and assisted in the rapid removal of my windscreen. But it survived just fine... It did NOT survive Air Canada getting me the rest of the way home. It arrived with damage to the case and a broken crystal. I'm pretty sure I know exactly how it happened - being a small airport, I was able to watch as they loaded the plane. I saw the handler grab my suitcase from the top luggage trolly, and swing it up over his head to smack down HARD on a conveyor going into the plane... Cheers, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 5 15:06:25 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:06:25 -0500 Subject: S100 Buss extender boards References: <007801c56a07$4cc19ec0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <000f01c56a0a$11125b00$0a90d6d1@randy> From: "Richard A. Cini" Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 2:46 PM > All: > > Part of the goodies that came with my IMSAI was a buss extender > board which has a logic probe on it, which I definitely use for > troubleshooting this stuck bit problem. One of the transistors on the > board > has a lead that's broken at the case. > > The designation on the transistor is "F444". There's a second > transistor marked "F137" which also seems to have shakey leads. The board > is manufactured by Mullen Computer Boards, model TB-1. > > Can anyone cross these numbers to a current replacement? Googling > has come up with a possibility for the F444 but nothing for the F137. > > Thanks. > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ I have a couple, I'll see if they use different transistors. It's a simple probe and just saturates the transistors. I would guess that they can be replaces with any general purpose switching transistors as long as you match up PNP or NPN (2n2222 & 2n2907 ar my favorites). If I either of mine use different transistors I'll follow up. I like the fact that the power lines can be isolated so it's easy to test for voltage/amperage etc. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 5 15:16:37 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:16:37 -0500 Subject: Generators was Re: S100 address buss troubleshooting References: <007701c56a04$4ce88f10$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza><001201c56a06$41e71b20$403dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <001601c56a0b$85088600$0a90d6d1@randy> From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 2:54 PM > On 6/5/05, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> Recently there was a power blackout where I live. I started up my gas >> generator (5500 watts) and used high quality extension cords to hook up >> the >> TV, satellite reciever, and refidgerator, and some lights. My neighbor >> had >> a tiny generator (800 watts) he knew nothing about. I helped him get his >> going and told him to get a good extension cord, I plugged it in and >> handed >> him the other end and told him to use that for power. He pointed out >> that >> the cord had a female socket and asked how to plug it into the house >> wiring >> to power the whole house :) > > Were you later able to read by the glow from the remains of his house? > > -ethan No I explained to him that he didn't have a big enough generator to even run a full sized fridge safely but he could run a couple of lamps and a TV. He was disappointed since he had a fridge & two freezers, I told him to make sure no one opened them and the power came back on in a few hours. I like independence so having a medium sized generator and LP grill & Cajun cooker means I can get a long even though I have an all electric house. It's funny I got the generator through some horse-trading from a buddy a few years ago. It was a millennium generator (when everyone thought everything would turn off in 2000). It had never even had oil put into it before I got it. We have ice storms that can keep power out for days at a time but none since I get the generator. I'd run it for testing but this was the first time I needed to use it for real, it just goes to show if you have a generator the power won't hardly fail :) Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 5 15:36:36 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:36:36 -0500 Subject: S100 Buss extender boards Message-ID: <000e01c56a0e$487c28b0$083dd7d1@randy> From: "Randy McLaughlin" Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 3:06 PM > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 2:46 PM > >> All: >> >> Part of the goodies that came with my IMSAI was a buss extender >> board which has a logic probe on it, which I definitely use for >> troubleshooting this stuck bit problem. One of the transistors on the >> board >> has a lead that's broken at the case. >> >> The designation on the transistor is "F444". There's a second >> transistor marked "F137" which also seems to have shakey leads. The >> board >> is manufactured by Mullen Computer Boards, model TB-1. >> >> Can anyone cross these numbers to a current replacement? Googling >> has come up with a possibility for the F444 but nothing for the F137. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Rich >> >> Rich Cini >> Collector of classic computers >> Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project >> Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >> /************************************************************/ > > I have a couple, I'll see if they use different transistors. It's a > simple probe and just saturates the transistors. I would guess that they > can be replaced with any general purpose switching transistors as long as > you match up PNP or NPN (2n2222 & 2n2907 ar my favorites). > > If either of mine use different transistors I'll follow up. > > I like the fact that the power lines can be isolated so it's easy to test > for voltage/amperage etc. > > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com I just checked and mine are TB-2's with no transistors (four IC's instead). I just use them as straight extenders with easy to access bus pins & power separation. I have an HP logic probe that I like. You might post on comp.os.cpm to see if anyone else has any TB-1's. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 5 16:24:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 22:24:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8" DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <000c01c5697d$0cbba620$6792d6d1@randy> from "Randy McLaughlin" at Jun 4, 5 10:16:59 pm Message-ID: > > I think it's time to get rich quick: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74947&item=5205357000&rd=1 > > > 8" DSDD disk you can buy for $20.00 & $5.00 S&H. > > If anyone has an extra $250.00 I can send them 10 and I'll even throw in a > plastic carrying case ;-) [LOoks at the rows of 8" disk boxes sitting behind some nice toys in the corner...] You know, I could sell off some of those spares and actually afford that darn DPF-reading PC you think I should own.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 5 16:26:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 22:26:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <200506050822.JAA06326@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Jun 5, 5 09:22:53 am Message-ID: > > > > That's the type I have. It's not a Q-Max brand, it's RS > > (http://www.rswww.com/ IIRC). I've never seen an odd-shaped genuine Q-Max > > cutter (I know they did make sqyare and rectangular ones, though). > > There were some odd-shaped ones like DB-9 and -25 and SO239 with a flat > on one side for nut fixing sockets. I've not seen any for years, and > I would have bought them if I had :-) What, genuins Q-Max ones? I know RS sell (sold?) some odd/useful ones to fit common components (although I don't recall seeing any circular-with-flat ones). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 5 16:50:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 22:50:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: punches In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Jun 5, 5 12:44:34 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> [1] The first 3 I ever bought, over 25 years ago, were 5/8", 3/4" and > >>> 1+1/8". Why? > >> seven-pin, nine-pin and octal tube sockets? > > Exactly. We call the first 2 'B7G' and 'B9A' over here, BTW. > > We call the first two 'miniature' and 'noval'. The 'Noval' is sometimes used over here, along with magnoval for the B9D base (as used on the PL504, etc). 'Miniature' is used for any small valve base, including the B7G, B9A and B8A (Rimlock base, as on the EZ40, etc). -tony From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 5 18:12:47 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 18:12:47 -0500 Subject: 8" DSDD disk References: Message-ID: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 4:24 PM >> I think it's time to get rich quick: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74947&item=5205357000&rd=1 >> >> 8" DSDD disk you can buy for $20.00 & $5.00 S&H. >> >> If anyone has an extra $250.00 I can send them 10 and I'll even throw in >> a >> plastic carrying case ;-) > > [LOoks at the rows of 8" disk boxes sitting behind some nice toys in the > corner...] > > You know, I could sell off some of those spares and actually afford that > darn DPF-reading PC you think I should own.... > > -tony Personally I think the basic design of the PC is bad but I've got enough 8" disks that if I could get $20 each I could build a newer better shop to work on my toys I truly love :-} I've always thought computers should be built to maximize performance, IBM not only appear to have ignored that but built down. They took a 5mhz brain dead version of a 16 bit chip and ran it on an 8 bit bus @ 4.77mhz and put a RAM limit of 448mb of RAM. The excuse of running 4.77mhz was for color burst but I never saw a video card that didn't use its own crystal negating the need for the 4.77mhz. In any case the extra $0.50 it might add to a video board versus slowing down a $3000.00 computer doesn't make any sense any way. In the 8088/8086 world I like what others did in the S100 world. They started with the 8088 simply to keep compatible the 8 bit S100 bus, later a 16 bit standard allowed for 8086's. The S100 systems generally ran at the full chip speed (5 or 8 mhz), allowed full 1mb RAM, didn't use 10% of the processor speed to refresh RAM. I produce PDF's that love PC's not because I think they are perfect or I love PC's but simply because after thinking of the problem PDF's are the best choice I have in the world Willy boy created. It reminds me of what is going on in the EU (no I'm not trying and hopefully won't make a big political statement). The problem as reported in the US is that the EU constitution is like Windows I giant agreement that creates so much structure the citizens of Europe are afraid they could lose their individualism. It's a shame we didn't have the sense to just say no to Willy. Please note I have no personal knowledge about the EU constitution, more over "I don't have a dog in that fight". Randy www.s100-manuals.com From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jun 5 19:25:36 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 19:25:36 -0500 Subject: 8" DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org> Randy McLaughlin declared on Sunday 05 June 2005 06:12 pm: > They took a 5mhz brain dead version of a 16 bit chip and ran it on an 8 > bit bus @ 4.77mhz and put a RAM limit of 448mb of RAM. Err, I think you have the memory limit wrong (I'm assuming you meant 448kB), 640kB (or 64kB on the original motherboard if you don't use a memory expansion card) is more accurate. Also, using an 8-bit bus let them keep the cost lower, as they required 1/2 as many latches for data, and it was easier to get 8-bit interface parts (like 8255s and other 82xx series chips) than 16-bit parts cheaply in 1981.. You'll note that when the AT came out, they did have a full 16-bit data bus (and 24-bit address bus) available on the expansion bus. BTW, m means milli, M means mega, b means bit, and B means byte. > The excuse of running > 4.77mhz was for color burst but I never saw a video card that didn't > use its own crystal negating the need for the 4.77mhz. In any case Ok, I don't understand that... Colorburst is (on NTSC), about 3.58 MHz, which isn't easy to derive from 4.77MHz. I highly doubt IBM's reason for using that speed had anything to do with (at least NTSC) video. By the way, the difference in speed is less than 5% between what IBM used and what the processor was rated at. IMO, 5% is a meaningless difference. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jun 5 19:39:27 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 19:39:27 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050605193927.1f4d5a34.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:28:31 -0400 (EDT) der Mouse wrote: > >> You are making life difficult if to don't have a tool for reading > >> PDF files. I think you can buy a nice one for a few hundred > >> dollars. > > You can buy a used PC for tens of dollars. > > Including the monitor and the license fees for all the necessary bits > of software? And including someone to be its sysadmin? I'm certainly > not about to baby along a machine running closed-source software. > I bought a few skid of Dell Optiplexes at auction about this time last year. I got approx. 80 machines for $40. I've sold 30 or so of them for from $20 to $80 each on eBay. All of the above machines are very capable of running NetBSD. There is a useful NetBSD package in the pkgsrc collection called xpdf that will read and (somewhat) manipulate PDF files. It is trivial to print from xpdf to any common postscript printer, or to almost any non-postscript printer with a printer filter script that uses ghostscript. I got an Apple Laserwriter that speaks Postscript about two years ago at auction, on a skid that also included other stuff, (including a Powerbook hidden in the bottom of one of the cartons that I sold for $80 on eBay), for $5.00. Monitors you can get for almost free. When I was buying that 'skid of Optiplexes' back a year ago, I avoided the skids that had monitors, as I have enough of them, they have almost no resale value unless bundled with a system and they're just a burden to dispose of. You can get a workable used monitor for under $5 easily at yard sales. Keyboards and mice are also 'virtually free.' I got handed a box of ten or so Dell keyboards at an auction by somebody who just wanted the SGI keyboard out of the box. I bought 'the remaining boxes' of Mice at an auction for $10, then all these people converged on me and bought individual mice out of the boxes for a buck each. I think I've demonstrated that it can cost you negative hundreds of dollars to get the software and hardware needed to view and print PDF documents. That's what I've spent on 'commodity' PeeCee hardware in the last several years. -Scott From trestivo at tarinc.com Sun Jun 5 19:44:10 2005 From: trestivo at tarinc.com (thom restivo) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 20:44:10 -0400 Subject: programming station offer Message-ID: <000001c56a30$dae21030$6801a8c0@studio> To all members, before I post this item on ebay I thought I would offer it here first. For those of you who don't know me I'm Thom from TARINC (vcf east) and I've been selling DEC and VAX items for almost 10 years. I have a programming station that contains 3 RK05 drives, a PDP8/a, a Decitek paper tape reader, and a Remix unit which I think is a paper tape punch. They're housed in cabinet 5 feet high on the right with a desk high extension off to the left. Email me if you want a picture. It's on wheels and would be shipped by freight unless you want to pick it up. This whole unit was working fine when turned off a couple of months ago. I could probably include a bootable pack and possibly a CE alignment pack for the RK05's. The first $3500 takes it all; you are responsible for shipping charges. If no one is interested it'll post on ebay with a reserve set at $3750. You are welcome to visit the shop and check it out along with all the other DEC stuff. Email me at trestivo at tarinc.com or call me at 321-537-2384. I promise I won't make a habit of posting stuff here but I thought you guys might want first crack at this unit. Thom From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 5 19:45:31 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> <200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Patrick wrote: > Err, I think you have the memory limit wrong (I'm assuming you meant > 448kB), 640kB (or 64kB on the original motherboard if you don't use a > memory expansion card) is more accurate. On the original PC, the limit was less than 640K. It was determined by the DIP switch settings, and there weren't settings that went as high as 640K. To convince the BIOS and DOS to use more memory, you had to run a program that fiddled with the pointers in low memory. > Ok, I don't understand that... Colorburst is (on NTSC), about 3.58 MHz, > which isn't easy to derive from 4.77MHz. I highly doubt IBM's reason > for using that speed had anything to do with (at least NTSC) video. Yes, that was the reason. They had a 4x colorburst crystal (14.31818 MHz). They divided by three for the CPU clock, and by four for the colorburst. Eric From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jun 5 19:44:53 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 19:44:53 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050605194453.4885b773.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 01:41:32 -0400 (EDT) der Mouse wrote: > > The point was that anyone that wants to be able to easily handle > > PDF's can do so very cheaply and are not required to deal with > > either Micro$loth or Adobe. > > Easily? > > Which of those "several open source packages" includes a scriptable > (ie, command-line) tool to extract the embedded images from a PDF? > (Not to render them and give the resulting rendered image, but to > extract the image itself.) Certainly ghostscript couldn't last time I > looked. > With the xpdf program, which runs under X, and which IS open-source (I've certainly never run a binary of it that I didn't compile locally from source) you can use 'print to file' to convert a PDF, or selected pages from a PDF, to a postscript file. There is also a pdf2ps utility bundled with ghostscript that does the conversion. Then you can use all the nice free tools to mess with the postscript (or dig into it with vi or emacs). From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 5 19:45:47 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 19:45:47 -0500 Subject: 8" DSDD disk References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> <200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <000401c56a31$182273e0$e83cd7d1@randy> From: "Patrick Finnegan" Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:25 PM > Randy McLaughlin declared on Sunday 05 June 2005 06:12 pm: >> They took a 5mhz brain dead version of a 16 bit chip and ran it on an 8 >> bit bus @ 4.77mhz and put a RAM limit of 448mb of RAM. > > Err, I think you have the memory limit wrong (I'm assuming you meant > 448kB), 640kB (or 64kB on the original motherboard if you don't use a > memory expansion card) is more accurate. I type slower than I think so I often have typo's, sorry. > Also, using an 8-bit bus let them keep the cost lower, as they required > 1/2 as many latches for data, and it was easier to get 8-bit interface > parts (like 8255s and other 82xx series chips) than 16-bit parts cheaply > in 1981.. > > You'll note that when the AT came out, they did have a full 16-bit data > bus (and 24-bit address bus) available on the expansion bus. The 8 bit parts used at the time are still used today and could have been used then with an 8086. The latches cost < $0.25, it would have required twice as many RAM chips but they usually came with four banks so a 2x2 would have worked. > BTW, m means milli, M means mega, b means bit, and B means > byte. > >> The excuse of running >> 4.77mhz was for color burst but I never saw a video card that didn't >> use its own crystal negating the need for the 4.77mhz. In any case > > Ok, I don't understand that... Colorburst is (on NTSC), about 3.58 MHz, > which isn't easy to derive from 4.77MHz. I highly doubt IBM's reason > for using that speed had anything to do with (at least NTSC) video. > > By the way, the difference in speed is less than 5% between what IBM used > and what the processor was rated at. IMO, 5% is a meaningless > difference. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org The 5% + 10% used to keep the RAM refreshed is huge. When you look at the upper end processors you will find that 15% means lots of $. More to the point to run a machine at less than 100% speed with zero reason makes no sense. For less than $1.00 the machine could have been tremendously more powerfull just by using the lessons of the time: 4Mhz Z80 is better than 2Mhz 8080, just as 5Mhz 8086 is better than 4.77Mhz 8088. Access to full memory map of 1MB is better than 448KB. MMU's allowing shadow ROM / separate bank for video is good. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From KParker at workcover.com Sun Jun 5 19:49:45 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 10:19:45 +0930 Subject: Altos 486 power supply Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C044@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Please excuse my ignorance but what makes it different from a normal AT or XT supply - I have lots of junk if you can give me some idea I'll have a rummage. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of SP Sent: Sunday, 5 June 2005 10:41 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Altos 486 power supply This is a request: Someone has or know of some place where I could locate and obtain one PS for one Altos 486 (not an Intel machine, is from the beginning of the eighties) that I own ? I need it complete. Thanks Sergio ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jun 5 19:49:55 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 19:49:55 -0500 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <42A0809D.8050809@oldskool.org> References: <0506030203.AA00765@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <42A0809D.8050809@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050605194955.4184281c.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:09:01 -0500 Jim Leonard wrote: > Michael Sokolov wrote: > > There are very few things in the Universe that enrage me more than > > PDF files that have been produced from PostScript with the original > > PS being unavailable to me. PS reconstructed from PDF is never as > > good as the original PS from which the PDF was made. > > What is your proof that the PDF was created from PS? Was the PS > hand-edited by a person, or generated by a program? If the latter, I > doubt the original PS will have "more" than the PDF. > > > The difference between PostScript and PDF is very much like that > > between the source and binary forms of a program. Publishing PDF > > files while withholding or discarding PS from which they were made > > is a crime > > Most PDFs I've created from PS source had that PS source generated by > some other program. PS was just the intermediate transport. The > "original PS" didn't exist since the *original* was really something > else.-- Don Lancaster has written a lot of cool info about directly creating postscript files with a text editor. It was his 'big thing' after all the 'cookbook' books that we love and revere. He still has a website with all of his postscript lore on it. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jun 5 19:52:05 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 19:52:05 -0500 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <20050604061551.51461.qmail@web25002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050604061551.51461.qmail@web25002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050605195205.29870458.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 07:15:51 +0100 (BST) lee davison wrote: > > In what situation would a PDF not be printable? > > If the author has set the security on the file to not allow > printing then Adobe reader, and even the full Adobe acrobat, > will not print the file. > > Other tools may though. > There are 'cracking' tools for such uses. I looked around a bit for stuff regarding 'encrypted PDF' awhile back, then decided it was too 'gray' an area for me. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jun 5 20:01:11 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 20:01:11 -0500 Subject: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> <200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org> <52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: <20050605200111.55db7033.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:45:31 -0700 (PDT) "Eric Smith" wrote: > Patrick wrote: > > Err, I think you have the memory limit wrong (I'm assuming you meant > > 448kB), 640kB (or 64kB on the original motherboard if you don't use > > a memory expansion card) is more accurate. > > On the original PC, the limit was less than 640K. It was determined > by the DIP switch settings, and there weren't settings that went as > high as 640K. To convince the BIOS and DOS to use more memory, you > had to run a program that fiddled with the pointers in low memory. > > > Ok, I don't understand that... Colorburst is (on NTSC), about 3.58 > > MHz, which isn't easy to derive from 4.77MHz. I highly doubt IBM's > > reason for using that speed had anything to do with (at least NTSC) > > video. > > Yes, that was the reason. They had a 4x colorburst crystal (14.31818 > MHz). They divided by three for the CPU clock, and by four for the > colorburst. > On early PC and PC-XT motherboards, there was a trimmer capacitor in the crystal clock circuit specifically for tweaking the color burst frequency. It was labeled as such. When the IBM-PC first came out, it's important to remember how expensive all that stuff still was. There were two, and only two 'processors' in an original IBM machine. The CPU on the motherboard, and the 8048 in the keyboard. From jcwren at jcwren.com Sun Jun 5 20:15:09 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:15:09 -0400 Subject: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> <200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org> <52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: <42A3A39D.1070607@jcwren.com> You have to remember that the PC group didn't *want* to do some of the things that were done to the PC. It was specifically lobotomized so as not to compete with the Display Writer. According to a friend of mine who worked there (and was the lead developer on the PC Jr (another political victim)), one of the reasons for the 8088 was because they had Intel blue box development systems around. There was a strong internal camp that wanted a 6809 in the PC. --jc Eric Smith wrote: >Patrick wrote: > > >>Err, I think you have the memory limit wrong (I'm assuming you meant >>448kB), 640kB (or 64kB on the original motherboard if you don't use a >>memory expansion card) is more accurate. >> >> > >On the original PC, the limit was less than 640K. It was determined >by the DIP switch settings, and there weren't settings that went as >high as 640K. To convince the BIOS and DOS to use more memory, you >had to run a program that fiddled with the pointers in low memory. > > > >>Ok, I don't understand that... Colorburst is (on NTSC), about 3.58 MHz, >>which isn't easy to derive from 4.77MHz. I highly doubt IBM's reason >>for using that speed had anything to do with (at least NTSC) video. >> >> > >Yes, that was the reason. They had a 4x colorburst crystal (14.31818 MHz). >They divided by three for the CPU clock, and by four for the colorburst. > >Eric > > > > From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jun 5 20:31:07 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:31:07 -0400 Subject: Site update Message-ID: <20050606013106.YWCV16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, FYI I've just posted a significant update to my site. Which includes: - Quite a few new machines (list below) Not all of them have in-depth coverage yet, however there's lots of photos etc. - A new section on S-100 cards, with photos and documents (where available), including a number of docs that I have recently scanned which may not be available elsewhere. - Quite a few new disk images, including a lot of new NorthStar images (I am currently "mining" a stack of many hundred N* disks) - Updates/latest versions of my simulators and transfer utilities. - Misc. updates to various other sections. - Probably more stuff that I have forgotten (It's been a few months since I started the update - Whew!) Enjoy, Dave I case anyone is interested, here is a list of the new system (most of them anyway): S100 : IMSAI 8080, NorthStar Horizon, Compupro, Cromemco Z-2D and Early System3, Wynchester, Multiflex, Protec PRO-80, Compuduct Rainbow (oddball S-100 system) Other: BMC if800, MAI Basic4, Xerox 820-II, Nec APC, Nec N5200, DEC Rainbow 100+, Nelma Persona 100, Visual 1050, Megatel Quark, OSI Superboard II, Acorn Atom, Altos 586 -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 5 21:16:26 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 22:16:26 -0400 Subject: 8" DSDD disk Message-ID: <0IHN00EM34YS3460@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8" DSDD disk > From: "Randy McLaughlin" > Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:12:47 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >From: "Tony Duell" >Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 4:24 PM > >>> I think it's time to get rich quick: >>> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74947&item=5205357000&rd=1 >>> >>> 8" DSDD disk you can buy for $20.00 & $5.00 S&H. >>> >>> If anyone has an extra $250.00 I can send them 10 and I'll even throw in >>> a >>> plastic carrying case ;-) >> >> [LOoks at the rows of 8" disk boxes sitting behind some nice toys in the >> corner...] >> >> You know, I could sell off some of those spares and actually afford that >> darn DPF-reading PC you think I should own.... >> >> -tony > > >Personally I think the basic design of the PC is bad but I've got enough 8" >disks that if I could get $20 each I could build a newer better shop to work >on my toys I truly love :-} > >I've always thought computers should be built to maximize performance, IBM >not only appear to have ignored that but built down. They took a 5mhz brain >dead version of a 16 bit chip and ran it on an 8 bit bus @ 4.77mhz and put a >RAM limit of 448mb of RAM. The excuse of running 4.77mhz was for color >burst but I never saw a video card that didn't use its own crystal negating >the need for the 4.77mhz. In any case the extra $0.50 it might add to a >video board versus slowing down a $3000.00 computer doesn't make any sense >any way. > >In the 8088/8086 world I like what others did in the S100 world. They >started with the 8088 simply to keep compatible the 8 bit S100 bus, later a >16 bit standard allowed for 8086's. The S100 systems generally ran at the >full chip speed (5 or 8 mhz), allowed full 1mb RAM, didn't use 10% of the >processor speed to refresh RAM. Actually a lot of them ran the fastest 8088/6 (12mhz parts) and had mapping for more than 1meg of ram. Generally S100 based 16bit systems ran ahead of PCs for overall performance. Allison From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 5 21:18:33 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 22:18:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <20050605194453.4885b773.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050605194453.4885b773.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200506060223.WAA04002@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Which of those "several open source packages" includes a scriptable >> (ie, command-line) tool to extract the embedded images from a PDF? > With the xpdf program, which runs under X, and which IS open-source > (I've certainly never run a binary of it that I didn't compile > locally from source) you can use 'print to file' to convert a PDF, or > selected pages from a PDF, to a postscript file. Did you not see where I said "scriptable"? "Print to file" from a GUI interface (like xpdf) doesn't count. You also appear to have missed the part where I want to *extract* the image, not convert it to yet another wrapper format (such as PostScript). There *is* pdfimages, but that's not what you appeared to be talking about. (I also don't actually know whether it works, though I would tend to assume it does - vide infra.) > There is also a pdf2ps utility bundled with ghostscript that does the > conversion. ...from PDF to PostScript, which is not what I wanted. > Then you can use all the nice free tools to mess with the postscript > (or dig into it with vi or emacs). You clearly have never tried to do anything useful with the PostScript resulting from pdf2ps; it is not suitable for doing anything with at finer than page granualrity. I don't know what kind of stuff xpdf generates; I haven't yet got around to building any of that. (I was made aware of it only recently, and even more recently did I get hints on how to build it without all the GUI goop.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rsnats at bellsouth.net Sun Jun 5 22:12:48 2005 From: rsnats at bellsouth.net (xyz) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 22:12:48 -0500 Subject: MDS CDC Disk Drive Documentation Message-ID: <008301c56a45$a07447f0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> One of the CDC 9404, PN 75744025 8" floppy drives in my MDS-800 is have a problem becoming "Ready". I swapped drives and it is the drive. Does anyone have a maintenance manual or any documentation on this drive or the cabling to the MDS. Bob From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 5 22:28:45 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 22:28:45 -0500 Subject: MDS CDC Disk Drive Documentation References: <008301c56a45$a07447f0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> Message-ID: <000601c56a47$dc4c0900$413dd7d1@randy> From: "xyz" Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 10:12 PM > One of the CDC 9404, PN 75744025 8" floppy drives in my MDS-800 is have a > problem becoming "Ready". I swapped drives and it is the drive. Does > anyone have a maintenance manual or any documentation on this drive or the > cabling to the MDS. > > Bob http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/75897465_9404B_floppyMaint.pdf Randy www.s100-manuals.com From wpileggi at juno.com Sun Jun 5 23:00:28 2005 From: wpileggi at juno.com (Bill Pileggi) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 04:00:28 GMT Subject: Xebec/IBM Debug Address for Low-Level Format?? Message-ID: <20050605.210046.14422.284615@webmail02.lax.untd.com> I want to perform a low-level format on my Seagate ST-225 MFM hard drive - it has the Xebec (IBM) 1210 controller card. I cannot for the life of me remember the address to use in Debug. I know how to use Debug; I've done 100's of LL formats - just not in the last dozen years or so. Does Anybody remember?? Please email off-list. Thank you.... My HDD is working, I just want to set it up right from scratch. (In case anybody's wondering, I do a LL format on IDE drives before using them, too.) Bill Pileggi ___________________________________________________________________ Get Juno Platinum for as low as $4.97/month! Unlimited Internet Access with 250MB of Email Storage. Visit http://www.juno.com/half to sign up today! From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 5 23:02:06 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone here in lower Wisconsin? Message-ID: <20050606040206.99CA170C8EF8@bitsavers.org> I'm near Burlington, WI 'til the 11th Connectectivity is the pits (about 24kbaud) Tom, I sent mail to you abt the drives. Mail back if you want be to stop over. From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 5 23:23:40 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 23:23:40 -0500 Subject: Xebec/IBM Debug Address for Low-Level Format?? References: <20050605.210046.14422.284615@webmail02.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <000a01c56a4f$882342a0$563dd7d1@randy> From: "Bill Pileggi" Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 11:00 PM > I want to perform a low-level format on my Seagate ST-225 MFM hard drive - > it has the Xebec (IBM) 1210 controller card. I cannot for the life of me > remember the address to use in Debug. I know how to use Debug; I've done > 100's of LL formats - just not in the last dozen years or so. Does Anybody > remember?? Please email off-list. Thank you.... My HDD is working, I just > want to set it up right from scratch. (In case anybody's wondering, I do a > LL format on IDE drives before using them, too.) Bill Pileggi > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get Juno Platinum for as low as $4.97/month! > Unlimited Internet Access with 250MB of Email Storage. > Visit http://www.juno.com/half to sign up today! I'm fairly certain there is no formatter in ROM, it requires a program loaded from floppy. I don't know if any generic program will work or if you need a special formatter. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 5 23:29:20 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 23:29:20 -0500 Subject: Xebec/IBM Debug Address for Low-Level Format?? Message-ID: <001101c56a50$52c04f30$563dd7d1@randy> From: "Randy McLaughlin" Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 11:23 PM > From: "Bill Pileggi" > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 11:00 PM > >> I want to perform a low-level format on my Seagate ST-225 MFM hard >> drive - it has the Xebec (IBM) 1210 controller card. I cannot for the >> life of me remember the address to use in Debug. I know how to use Debug; >> I've done 100's of LL formats - just not in the last dozen years or so. >> Does Anybody remember?? Please email off-list. Thank you.... My HDD is >> working, I just want to set it up right from scratch. (In case anybody's >> wondering, I do a LL format on IDE drives before using them, too.) Bill >> Pileggi >> >> ___________________________________________________________________ >> Get Juno Platinum for as low as $4.97/month! >> Unlimited Internet Access with 250MB of Email Storage. >> Visit http://www.juno.com/half to sign up today! > > I'm fairly certain there is no formatter in ROM, it requires a program > loaded from floppy. I don't know if any generic program will work or if > you need a special formatter. > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com I found a site with a couple of formatters that may work: http://cd.textfiles.com/pcmedic/utils/harddisk/ Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 5 23:32:07 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xebec/IBM Debug Address for Low-Level Format?? In-Reply-To: <000a01c56a4f$882342a0$563dd7d1@randy> References: <20050605.210046.14422.284615@webmail02.lax.untd.com> <000a01c56a4f$882342a0$563dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <20050605213049.U45460@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 5 Jun 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > I'm fairly certain there is no formatter in ROM, it requires a program > loaded from floppy. I don't know if any generic program will work or if you > need a special formatter. included on the IBM "Advanced Diagnostics" diskette Speedstor works better. From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Jun 6 01:51:30 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:51:30 +0200 Subject: another site update - PDP11/60 ! Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1CF2@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Just like Dave, I have been a bit busy. First, with the resurrection of a PDP-11/60 from a low boy corporate cabinet into an H960 tall rack, doing a bit of DIY work to make all fit and taking pictures in the process. Edward and I went to the UK 10 days ago, where I picked up the 11/60 (Edward got some goodies too), and then we spent a very nice weekend at Pete's in York. Sunday afternoon I even found some time to work on my site. Check out www.pdp-11.nl and especially the "PDP-11/60" folder, and of course the link "11/60 in H960 rack" :~) Some XXDP doc is also added, but I have not yet shot pix of the boards ... I have not yet read about the diagnostic LEDs on the FP board and the LEDs on one of the CPU boards, so any info / comments are most welcome! greetz, - Henk, PA8PDP. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Jun 6 03:13:36 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 09:13:36 +0100 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 05 Jun 2005 22:26:25 BST." Message-ID: <200506060813.JAA01203@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > > > > > > That's the type I have. It's not a Q-Max brand, it's RS > > > (http://www.rswww.com/ IIRC). I've never seen an odd-shaped genuine Q-Max > > > cutter (I know they did make sqyare and rectangular ones, though). > > > > There were some odd-shaped ones like DB-9 and -25 and SO239 with a flat > > on one side for nut fixing sockets. I've not seen any for years, and > > I would have bought them if I had :-) > > What, genuins Q-Max ones? I know RS sell (sold?) some odd/useful ones to > fit common components (although I don't recall seeing any > circular-with-flat ones). Good question, I do remember coming across some in a catalog some time back, they were quite expensive, but mebbe I just assumed they were Q-MAX. They caught my attention because I'd just bought a job lot of the appropriate SO239s, sill got half a dozen or so left...and it's a pain making the correct hole :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Jun 6 03:21:24 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 09:21:24 +0100 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 05 Jun 2005 19:39:27 CDT." <20050605193927.1f4d5a34.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200506060821.JAA01216@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Scott Stevens said; > On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:28:31 -0400 (EDT) > der Mouse wrote: > > > >> You are making life difficult if to don't have a tool for reading > > >> PDF files. I think you can buy a nice one for a few hundred > > >> dollars. > > > You can buy a used PC for tens of dollars. > > > > Including the monitor and the license fees for all the necessary bits > > of software? And including someone to be its sysadmin? I'm certainly > > not about to baby along a machine running closed-source software. > > > > I bought a few skid of Dell Optiplexes at auction about this time last > year. I got approx. 80 machines for $40. I've sold 30 or so of them > for from $20 to $80 each on eBay. > > All of the above machines are very capable of running NetBSD. There is > a useful NetBSD package in the pkgsrc collection called xpdf that will > read and (somewhat) manipulate PDF files. It is trivial to print from > xpdf to any common postscript printer, or to almost any non-postscript > printer with a printer filter script that uses ghostscript. > This machine is an Optiplex GXpro - Pentium Pro 200 - running Linux and I do almost everything on it that's not done on the Macs. Excellent reliable computer, it's been running continuously 24/7, barring hardware and kernel upgrades, since November 1999. A 10 quid ($18) Brother laser printer takes care of printing - actually the printer is attached to an even older 486 running FreeSCO to act as a print server for the entire network. You *can* do these things real cheap! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Jun 6 04:40:35 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 04:40:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Anyone here in lower Wisconsin? In-Reply-To: <20050606040206.99CA170C8EF8@bitsavers.org> References: <20050606040206.99CA170C8EF8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <44023.144.160.5.25.1118050835.squirrel@144.160.5.25> I thought you wanted the 11 too-- netcom box, assorted cards, manuals. > I'm near Burlington, WI 'til the 11th > Connectectivity is the pits (about 24kbaud) > > Tom, I sent mail to you abt the drives. Mail > back if you want be to stop over. > From rsnats at bellsouth.net Mon Jun 6 06:21:06 2005 From: rsnats at bellsouth.net (xyz) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 06:21:06 -0500 Subject: MDS CDC Disk Drive Documentation References: <008301c56a45$a07447f0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> <000601c56a47$dc4c0900$413dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <000701c56a89$d7a18dc0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> Thanks Randy. Themanual at the web site is for a 9404-B. It has a lot of helpful information, but the printed circuit board is more modern. I have traced out some of the circuitry and it appears the even the pinouts from the 50 pin connector do not match those of the 9404-B. That surprised me. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy McLaughlin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 10:28 PM Subject: Re: MDS CDC Disk Drive Documentation > From: "xyz" > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 10:12 PM > > > > One of the CDC 9404, PN 75744025 8" floppy drives in my MDS-800 is have a > > problem becoming "Ready". I swapped drives and it is the drive. Does > > anyone have a maintenance manual or any documentation on this drive or the > > cabling to the MDS. > > > > Bob > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/75897465_9404B_floppyMaint.pdf > > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 6 06:48:15 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 11:48:15 +0000 Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <20050605194453.4885b773.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <03e601c567d9$0806ba70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <000a01c567da$508a4ea0$dd3fd7d1@randy> <200506030430.AAA12549@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000c01c567f7$27a7f970$733cd7d1@randy> <200506030452.AAA12656@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c567fb$08647260$2b92d6d1@randy> <200506030548.BAA12851@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050605194453.4885b773.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1118058495.24778.12.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-06-05 at 19:44 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > With the xpdf program, which runs under X, and which IS open-source > (I've certainly never run a binary of it that I didn't compile locally > from source) you can use 'print to file' to convert a PDF, or selected > pages from a PDF, to a postscript file. xpdf performance is horrible, though. Unless they've dramatically improved it in the last couple of months, it really barfs on PDF files containing large image scans - load time is significant and performance as perceived by the user is slow (e.g. scrolling images). kpdf had the same sort of limitations. Ghostscript fell down on render quality (although to be fair I never did look to see if there was a "render things properly" switch :) Acrobat is bloated as all hell, but is at least OK on performance. Of course it's not an open solution, which may well bug some people (personally I don't mind closed apps, providing they're very configurable, not bloated, and not prone to feature-creep) I'm not sure what other PDF viewers there are for Linux or the BSD variants (or commercial Unix platforms for that matter). Hence the reason I always end up 'unpacking' PDF files (at least onces containing scans), as there are millions of free image viewers out there that can handle TIFF files and provide a UI giving thumbnail overviews - plus I can easily manipulate from the command-line, print etc. and do all the stuff that a PDF viewer would do (in the context of scanned images of course) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 6 06:54:14 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 11:54:14 +0000 Subject: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> <200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org> <52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-06-05 at 17:45 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Patrick wrote: > > Ok, I don't understand that... Colorburst is (on NTSC), about 3.58 MHz, > > which isn't easy to derive from 4.77MHz. I highly doubt IBM's reason > > for using that speed had anything to do with (at least NTSC) video. > > Yes, that was the reason. They had a 4x colorburst crystal (14.31818 MHz). > They divided by three for the CPU clock, and by four for the colorburst. Does that mean that IBM machines running PAL display rates had a slightly different CPU clock frequency as the main crystal would be different? [btw, where did we suddenly get an 8-foot floppy from!?] If the 8088 has an 8 bit bus and the 8086 is 16 bits, is there a good reason why it didn't get named the 80816? I'm assuming that's what the last digit in the number signifies... cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 6 07:23:12 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 05:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> from Jules Richardson at "Jun 6, 5 11:54:14 am" Message-ID: <200506061223.FAA10028@floodgap.com> > [btw, where did we suddenly get an 8-foot floppy from!?] Anabolic steroids. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- So what's my point? I don't know, it's fun to talk about. -- Judy Blackburn From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Jun 6 07:51:39 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:51:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Osborne Executive disk images In-Reply-To: <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> <200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org> <52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: I'm looking for an Osborne Executive boot disk image, or even better, a set of distribution disk images. All I've been able to find, so far, is for the Osborne 1. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 6 07:29:44 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 08:29:44 -0400 Subject: 9900 CPU was:Re: Rescued Items In-Reply-To: <42A328F8.nail73Q11PLNB@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <7b2052764d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <0IHM008GK89PWX60@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <42A31387.nail6GB11EZVL@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <7b2052764d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050606082944.00a4c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:31 PM 6/5/05 -0400, you wrote: >> I think I ended up using a roll and a half of bubblewrap just for the >> scope. > >It's great you used lots of bubblewrap, but that's not enough to cope >with the abuse UPS puts on packages here in the US. You'd definitely >need to at least double-box, and probably need corner protectors and >some sort of hollow cap to cover knobs and connectors on the front. > >Just imagine what would happen to your scope if it was dropped on a >corner of the face from a height of 6 feet or so. That's entirely >typical of the handling I see. You're exactly righht about UPS handling. That's just one reason why I switched to FedEx and no longer use UPS. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 6 07:59:41 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 08:59:41 -0400 Subject: Osborne Executive disk images In-Reply-To: References: <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> <200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org> <52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050606085941.00a553d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Mike, Try Mike Haas. I gave him an Executive with a full set of disks. Joe At 08:51 AM 6/6/05 -0400, you wrote: > > I'm looking for an Osborne Executive boot disk image, or even better, a >set of distribution disk images. All I've been able to find, so far, is >for the Osborne 1. > > >Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 6 09:36:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 07:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: <20050604223214.PRUJ5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >You never defined "original condition". This could mean the condition it > >was in when it left the factory, or the condition it was in when it left > >the nth generation owner. > > > >At any rate, this is all getting a bit nazi. If Rich wanted to saw it in > >half so he could display the innards then that would be his perogative. > > I'm sorry, but I really don't know what your problem is with my postings. > Rich's asking on the list how to fix the IMSAI logo seemed like enough > evidence to me that he wants it visible like when it left the factory and > not blacked-out as done by the previous owner (he would not have had to > ask how to keep it blacked out as it was already done). > > Are you suggesting that I am a Nazi for giving my opinion that there is merit > in keeping the original artwork if it is reasonably possible instead of > replacing it (which he had indicated that he was considering). The problem has been in assuming that by making or not making modifications to something that you are doing the right thing. I doubt many if any people here are trained in conservation practices, and I'm not claiming I am, but I do understand the issues. Suggesting the use of solvents on any material has long term effects that, if not understood, can do permanent damage. Rich's solution of deciding to purchase a separate face panel was in fact the correct and proper solution in this case. > At no time on any of my postings did I attempt to coerce Rich into doing > anything (or not doing anything) with his machine that he didn't want to > do - I simply gave my suggestions and opinions in response to his inquiry. > I was unaware that this would cause a problem. How does one determine > what suggestions and opinions are considered acceptable to this list? This might sound rude but it's part common sense, part logic, and mostly understanding how real conservation work is done. If you really want to know what is generally considered acceptable based on time-tested research and study then enroll yourself in a museum studies program. > >> Obviously any cleanup should be attempted with great care, and if it's not > >> going to work, then by all means get the replacement, and keep the original > >> in a safe place.... but that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least investigate > >> restoring the original first. > > > >Everything has a story. You have to decide if you are going to continue > >writing the story where the last guy left off by removing the ink or > >considering it complete and leaving the computer as is. Rich decided to > >continue the story. > > Yes, thats how I understood his postings, which is why I offered what I > considered to be helpful suggestions to that end. There are different ways to look at this. First of all, is Rich a new user of the piece, or is he a conservator? I would say he's more the former than the latter: he fully intends to continue using this item. Of course, as a collector he's sensitive to preservation issues, but he also wanted the piece to look like it was when new out of pride of ownership. By changing out the front panel, the piece is no longer "original", but original is merely a refernce marker. It could have ceased being "original" as soon as the previous owner made even the smallest modification, such as plugging in a third party interface card. One can assume perhaps that Rich was sensitive to the issue of altering the history of the piece by removing the ink, or perhaps he didn't feel that would be an adequate restoration and opted for a replacement panel. In either case he would be modyifying the machine, therefore altering its history. The less destructive method of alteration is to replace the front panel as he opted. However, noting this alteration is up to Rich. He may not consider himself a conservator or collector but a hobbyist wanting to restore his new found fancy to "factory" condition. As I mentioned before, whatever he decides to do is his perogative. > Just recently, a thread went by where opinions were given as to the merit > of keeping original screws in machine - I don't recall anyone bashing the > person with that option Do you have a filter on Tony's messages? He completely lambasted Jules for replacing the screws on a power supply, which I did not consider to be a major or irreversible modification. This is the same issue. Rich is replacing the panel which is reversible, and should he ever want to demonstrate the condition in which he received the unit he can replace the new panel with the old. > - how is it different to discuss the options in > replacing or not replacing front panel artwork? ... In other words, what > did I do to incur the "Wrath of Sellam"? (hey, we could make a movie with > that for a title!) It wasn't directed at you in particular but at the tendency of people in general to voice their opinions which are clearly either wrong or uninformed, and then coming off the heels of the Screws Debate it just seemed a bit overwhelming. My must everything be open to argument all the time here? Especially when we're debating issues that have already been argued and resolved many times over? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 6 09:47:13 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:47:13 -0500 Subject: Osborne Executive disk images References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy><200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org><52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222><1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <003201c56aa6$a3d99bf0$fb3cd7d1@randy> From: "Mike Loewen" Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 7:51 AM > I'm looking for an Osborne Executive boot disk image, or even better, a > set of distribution disk images. All I've been able to find, so far, is > for the Osborne 1. > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ Dave Dunfield has some images posted: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/img/index.htm Randy From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 6 09:43:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 07:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wahsington Post reporter looking for collector in DC area Message-ID: If you want to be interviewed and are in the DC area, contact me privately and I'll put you in touch with the reporter. Need a response today. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 6 09:47:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 07:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altos In-Reply-To: <003301c569cf$a07e5db0$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Jun 2005, SP wrote: > And, for the same reason than the other auction, perhaps someone would be > interested in purchase this machine. Pretty. > > http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5203856971&r > d=1 Wow, it's "over 20 years old and still powers up"! How did we ever get so far? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 6 09:55:05 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:55:05 -0500 Subject: PC speed was Re: 8' DSDD disk References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy><200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org><52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <003701c56aa7$bcffa380$fb3cd7d1@randy> From: "Jules Richardson" Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 6:54 AM > On Sun, 2005-06-05 at 17:45 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: >> Patrick wrote: >>> Ok, I don't understand that... Colorburst is (on NTSC), about 3.58 MHz, >>> which isn't easy to derive from 4.77MHz. I highly doubt IBM's reason >>> for using that speed had anything to do with (at least NTSC) video. >> >> Yes, that was the reason. They had a 4x colorburst crystal (14.31818 >> MHz). >> They divided by three for the CPU clock, and by four for the colorburst. > > Does that mean that IBM machines running PAL display rates had a > slightly different CPU clock frequency as the main crystal would be > different? > > [btw, where did we suddenly get an 8-foot floppy from!?] > > If the 8088 has an 8 bit bus and the 8086 is 16 bits, is there a good > reason why it didn't get named the 80816? I'm assuming that's what the > last digit in the number signifies... > > cheers > > Jules Part of my original point about using 4.77Mhz is that all of the CGA cards I ever saw had their own crystals and ignored the MB clock. The fact that the PC used 5Mhz parts but only ran at 4.77Mhz was just a loss of speed. One of my real peeves about IBM's design. As far as the 8' disks I always had to get a couple of buddies to help change disks, the real bitch was the lock down bar or was that holding down the shift key when typing ;-} Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 6 09:51:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 07:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 9900 CPU was:Re: Rescued Items In-Reply-To: <42A31387.nail6GB11EZVL@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > Allison wrote: > > I don't do Ebay. It involves more trust than I am able to muster. > > From what I've seen more monies lost than I care to loose. > > Most sellers and buyers are perfectly honest. What hurts me (more > emotionally than financially!) is when I buy something heavy and > fragile, and the seller is so naive that he packs it poorly and it > arrives banged up, damaged, or broken. Usually it's obvious that > there was insufficient packaging - e.g. 70 lb items put in lightweight > cardboard boxes filled with just styrofoam fuzzies. But I feel > bad going after the seller, because he honestly thought that shipping > insurance would cover his carelessness. Clearly he was mistaken. > > OTOH not going after the sellers who are careless like this encourages > them to continue shoddy packaging. By default, whether the item arrived in good condition or otherwise, I always leave negative feedback for poor packaging. Some people need incentive for correcting their bad habits. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 6 09:59:50 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 07:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S100 address buss troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <001201c56a06$41e71b20$403dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Jun 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > a tiny generator (800 watts) he knew nothing about. I helped him get his > going and told him to get a good extension cord, I plugged it in and handed > him the other end and told him to use that for power. He pointed out that > the cord had a female socket and asked how to plug it into the house wiring > to power the whole house :) In this case, the only right thing to do is to send your neighbor off to the hardware store in search of a flux capacitor to properly boost the power output. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 6 10:06:58 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 10:06:58 -0500 Subject: MDS CDC Disk Drive Documentation References: <008301c56a45$a07447f0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e><000601c56a47$dc4c0900$413dd7d1@randy> <000701c56a89$d7a18dc0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> Message-ID: <003a01c56aa9$8d2e5b90$fb3cd7d1@randy> From: "xyz" Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 6:21 AM > Thanks Randy. > > Themanual at the web site is for a 9404-B. It has a lot of helpful > information, but the printed circuit board is more modern. I have traced > out some of the circuitry and it appears the even the pinouts from the 50 > pin connector do not match those of the 9404-B. That surprised me. > > Bob I've got a paper manual from the Radio Shack model II technical manual but I bet it's also for the -B. I'll look and let you know. Sorry I assumed Al had what you needed. If you find the right manual please pass it on to Al or myself. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Jun 6 10:20:27 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 11:20:27 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A469BB.1020900@atarimuseum.com> You can reap a lot of benefits from the SAA (Society of American Archivists) Which I've been a member of for the last two years. You can tap into a lot of professional details on the handling of materials, storage, cleaning and restoration of various surfaces and materials, even understandings into properties of inks, papers, tape and other materials to understand long term breakdown, acidity and other information. So if you really want to get a lot of good solid answers, join up and you'll start getting the monthly newsletters and the network contact information, plus they send out catalogs on storage/restoration materials. I've got close to 40,000 documents on file here in my office from Atari as well as original pencil drawn blueprints, so I'm trying to take archival of these items very seriously. Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > >>>You never defined "original condition". This could mean the condition it >>>was in when it left the factory, or the condition it was in when it left >>>the nth generation owner. >>> >>>At any rate, this is all getting a bit nazi. If Rich wanted to saw it in >>>half so he could display the innards then that would be his perogative. >>> >>> >>I'm sorry, but I really don't know what your problem is with my postings. >>Rich's asking on the list how to fix the IMSAI logo seemed like enough >>evidence to me that he wants it visible like when it left the factory and >>not blacked-out as done by the previous owner (he would not have had to >>ask how to keep it blacked out as it was already done). >> >>Are you suggesting that I am a Nazi for giving my opinion that there is merit >>in keeping the original artwork if it is reasonably possible instead of >>replacing it (which he had indicated that he was considering). >> >> > >The problem has been in assuming that by making or not making >modifications to something that you are doing the right thing. I doubt >many if any people here are trained in conservation practices, and I'm not >claiming I am, but I do understand the issues. Suggesting the use of >solvents on any material has long term effects that, if not understood, >can do permanent damage. Rich's solution of deciding to purchase a >separate face panel was in fact the correct and proper solution in this >case. > > > >>At no time on any of my postings did I attempt to coerce Rich into doing >>anything (or not doing anything) with his machine that he didn't want to >>do - I simply gave my suggestions and opinions in response to his inquiry. >>I was unaware that this would cause a problem. How does one determine >>what suggestions and opinions are considered acceptable to this list? >> >> > >This might sound rude but it's part common sense, part logic, and mostly >understanding how real conservation work is done. If you really want to >know what is generally considered acceptable based on time-tested research >and study then enroll yourself in a museum studies program. > > > >>>>Obviously any cleanup should be attempted with great care, and if it's not >>>>going to work, then by all means get the replacement, and keep the original >>>>in a safe place.... but that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least investigate >>>>restoring the original first. >>>> >>>> >>>Everything has a story. You have to decide if you are going to continue >>>writing the story where the last guy left off by removing the ink or >>>considering it complete and leaving the computer as is. Rich decided to >>>continue the story. >>> >>> >>Yes, thats how I understood his postings, which is why I offered what I >>considered to be helpful suggestions to that end. >> >> > >There are different ways to look at this. First of all, is Rich a new >user of the piece, or is he a conservator? I would say he's more the >former than the latter: he fully intends to continue using this item. Of >course, as a collector he's sensitive to preservation issues, but he also >wanted the piece to look like it was when new out of pride of ownership. >By changing out the front panel, the piece is no longer "original", but >original is merely a refernce marker. It could have ceased being >"original" as soon as the previous owner made even the smallest >modification, such as plugging in a third party interface card. > >One can assume perhaps that Rich was sensitive to the issue of altering >the history of the piece by removing the ink, or perhaps he didn't feel >that would be an adequate restoration and opted for a replacement panel. >In either case he would be modyifying the machine, therefore altering its >history. The less destructive method of alteration is to replace the >front panel as he opted. However, noting this alteration is up to Rich. >He may not consider himself a conservator or collector but a hobbyist >wanting to restore his new found fancy to "factory" condition. As I >mentioned before, whatever he decides to do is his perogative. > > > >>Just recently, a thread went by where opinions were given as to the merit >>of keeping original screws in machine - I don't recall anyone bashing the >>person with that option >> >> > >Do you have a filter on Tony's messages? He completely lambasted Jules >for replacing the screws on a power supply, which I did not consider to be >a major or irreversible modification. This is the same issue. Rich is >replacing the panel which is reversible, and should he ever want to >demonstrate the condition in which he received the unit he can replace the >new panel with the old. > > > >>- how is it different to discuss the options in >>replacing or not replacing front panel artwork? ... In other words, what >>did I do to incur the "Wrath of Sellam"? (hey, we could make a movie with >>that for a title!) >> >> > >It wasn't directed at you in particular but at the tendency of people in >general to voice their opinions which are clearly either wrong or >uninformed, and then coming off the heels of the Screws Debate it just >seemed a bit overwhelming. My must everything be open to argument all the >time here? Especially when we're debating issues that have already been >argued and resolved many times over? > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.3 - Release Date: 6/6/2005 From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jun 6 10:22:13 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:22:13 -0500 Subject: Osborne Executive disk images In-Reply-To: References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> <200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org> <52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42A46A25.4050206@mdrconsult.com> Mike Loewen wrote: > > I'm looking for an Osborne Executive boot disk image, or even better, > a set of distribution disk images. All I've been able to find, so far, > is for the Osborne 1. I've got known good boot disks and a full set of masters that I haven't yet tested. Making images is this week's project. Doc From spedraja at ono.com Mon Jun 6 10:46:04 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:46:04 +0200 Subject: Altos References: Message-ID: <004601c56aae$d9354d50$1502a8c0@ACER> > > http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5203856971&r > > d=1 > > Wow, it's "over 20 years old and still powers up"! How did we ever get so > far? :) :-)))))) Sergio From drb at msu.edu Mon Jun 6 11:15:46 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 12:15:46 -0400 Subject: Help collecting gear from west of Chicago In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 04 Jun 2005 00:39:07 BST.) References: Message-ID: <200506061615.j56GFkwb003892@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > Teradyne-built items; I don't recognize the bus -- two edge connectors, > > each wider than qbus. It doesn't look like the unibus cards I've seen. > Unibus and Qbus use the same double-sided 36 pin (18 pin per side) > 0.125" pitch connectors. Q bus boards are normally dual or quad, > Unibus are normally quad or hrx. These in the Teradyne chassis have 60-pin edge connectors. The full width boards are about the same size as quad-width UNIBUS boards. The end of the chassis with the memory cards has two such connectors. The other end has only one connector, and an assortment of I/O cards -- variously full of UARTs, driver transistors, ADC, etc and connected to about 5 substantial cables. Haven't followed the cabling to see what goes into the main CPU yet. Both front and back of this cab are chock full of stuff so it's hard to see inside. Given that two of the boards in the teradyne chassis are memory, I'd expect some kind of CPU, but the other cards on that end of the bus don't seem to have appropriate parts. Perhaps some kind of marble machine? I'll have to post photos. > > The first small cabinet (9764, I think?) contains three RA81 drives; > > one is labeled 'bad hda'. > > I hope you locked the positioners on those drives (white lever on > top of the HDA) before moving them, otherwise you have 3 bad HDAs now. Unfortunately, didn't have my hands on the machine until it arrived in my driveway. I suspect the machine was moved before the auction started anyway. Yesterday I finally got inside the two drives which are not labeled bad. One has no hda at all; the other is not locked down. Sigh. Is this a guaranteed bad, or just highly likely? Any way to test or estimate non-destructively? I imagine working RA81 HDAs are unobtainium? Still haven't opened the RL02s. Seems like there's something (a powered solenoid) locking the top latch? Any way to defeat it? Started through the manuals from Bitsavers this morning, but haven't found the golden page yet. > The 11/44 PSU is the second most complicated I've ever worked on > (it was the most complicated until I worked on an HP9845..) It's > also got some lethal features, like 400V DC, straight from the mains, > on barrier strip terminals inside. Please ask here (or me directly) > before diving inside the PSU. Thanks for the warning. For curiosity, would the wimpy US power version have 400V, or more like 200? Supposedly I have a set of 11/44 prints on the way from .nl which may help. De From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 6 11:36:47 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:36:47 -0400 Subject: cpu/disc/memory vs time References: <429A51B6.9010602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <17060.31647.801911.879737@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow writes: Al> Three very cool pages I just stumbled upon: Al> http://www.jcmit.com/cpu-perf-chart.htm It's interesting that there are only five points in that graph that lie significantly above the pack. Not surprisingly, three of those five were created by Seymour Cray. paul From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 6 11:50:54 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:50:54 -0500 Subject: MDS CDC Disk Drive Documentation References: <008301c56a45$a07447f0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e><000601c56a47$dc4c0900$413dd7d1@randy><000701c56a89$d7a18dc0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> <003a01c56aa9$8d2e5b90$fb3cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <000c01c56ab7$ec1ed450$843cd7d1@randy> From: "Randy McLaughlin" Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 10:06 AM > From: "xyz" > Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 6:21 AM > >> Thanks Randy. >> >> Themanual at the web site is for a 9404-B. It has a lot of helpful >> information, but the printed circuit board is more modern. I have >> traced >> out some of the circuitry and it appears the even the pinouts from the 50 >> pin connector do not match those of the 9404-B. That surprised me. >> >> Bob > > > I've got a paper manual from the Radio Shack model II technical manual but > I bet it's also for the -B. > > I'll look and let you know. > > Sorry I assumed Al had what you needed. > > If you find the right manual please pass it on to Al or myself. > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com My hardcopy is also a -B. Randy From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 6 11:55:28 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:55:28 -0400 Subject: Help collecting gear from west of Chicago References: <200506061615.j56GFkwb003892@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <17060.32768.51449.882189@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dennis" == Dennis Boone writes: Dennis> Still haven't opened the RL02s. Seems like there's something Dennis> (a powered solenoid) locking the top latch? Any way to Dennis> defeat it? Yes. Look on the right side of the unit, maybe 6-12 inches back from the front panel. You'll see a little cover plate, about the size of a business card, held on by two Phillips head screws. Take that off; under it is, if I remember right, a thin steel cable. Push against that cable -- it's the actuating cable that goes from the solenoid to the latch. This should unlock the lock. You probably have to operate the lock while pushing the cable. paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 6 12:03:03 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files Message-ID: <200506061703.KAA05301@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> Apparently it's OK to spend $200 on a nice set of wrenches, but not >> OK to scrounge a contemporary PC to read contemporary documentation >> containers. > >The difference being that the set of spanners doesn't need desk space to >use it, doesn't need maintiaing [1]. and is likely to outlast me. > >[1] I have neither the skill nor the test gear to maintain a modern PC. ^^^^^ I doubt that! Maybe you don't have the documentation but I suspect your knowledge is just fine. Dwight > > >-tony > From kth at srv.net Mon Jun 6 12:06:25 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 11:06:25 -0600 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: <5aee34649c27e3527762876b0c6d48d0@xlisper.mv.com> References: <0IHI00ESOXV1KM24@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <5aee34649c27e3527762876b0c6d48d0@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <42A48291.8030306@srv.net> David Betz wrote: > Or maybe I should just run simh... I'm not really a hardware guy anyway! > You could make one like DEC used to: Take an 8-slot backplane, and fill in four of the slots with epoxy. You now have a 4 slot backplane. > On Jun 3, 2005, at 3:52 PM, Allison wrote: > >>> >>> Subject: Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? >>> From: David Betz >>> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:20:56 -0400 >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> >>> Cool. Where do I get a BA11 4 slot box? It sounds like just what I >>> need. Anyone have one they'd like to sell (or trade for an 11/23 and >>> RX02 drive)? >> >> >> They are not very common, four slots were a tight fit to make a >> useable system. I have a one with a bad PS that I'm saving for >> repair parts for the good one. >> >> The one ugly fact was with all four slots filled with RAM and DLV11j >> plus CPU that meant every boot required entering by hand the TUboot. >> >> The alternate was CPU, two MXV11 one with TUboot rom. >> >> The nicest configuration is a BA23 deskside case as then you can put >> in a RQDX2/3 and have a floppy and a small (30mb) hard disk easily. >> >> Allison >> > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 6 12:06:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 10:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: <200506061706.KAA05305@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> >> OK, I pulled the front panel appart tonight and I found out that whoever >> owned this model colored the silkscreen with magic marker. Bogus! > >Try wiping it with propan-2-ol. That will remove most 'magic markers' and >may well not damage the original printing. > >-tony > Hi I believe the original is photo emulsion and not printed. Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 6 12:06:34 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:06:34 +0000 Subject: Nascom 2 floppy drive usefulness... Message-ID: <1118077594.24778.52.camel@weka.localdomain> Urgh. I can't decide whether to add a connector for a floppy disk to the connector panel on this Nascom 2 case that I'm building. I don't *have* a FDC board for it anyway, plus I only have a 2-slot backplane (at the moment; there's room in the box for 7 or 8 boards probably). I just can't decide whether to make the case connector panel with room for a floppy connector, with an actual connector but not hooked up to anything, or not bother designing it with even the space present (and a new connector panel will need to be made to add a suitable connector) Someone think for me :) Do Nascom 2 owners out there typically have an FDC board and use disks for everything, or do they just stick with the tape interface on the machine's CPU board? What's the maximum cable length for a floppy drive anyway? ps. On the keyboard front I've decided to go for a 25-way D connector, even though it seems like I could just about get away with a 15-pin one - there's lots of room above the keys on the keyboard to add a few status LEDs, switches etc. if some future owner wanted to do so, so having the potential capacity for an extra 9 lines to the keyboard might be handy... cheers :) Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 12:25:15 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:25:15 -0500 Subject: Help collecting gear from west of Chicago In-Reply-To: <200506061615.j56GFkwb003892@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200506061615.j56GFkwb003892@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 6/6/05, Dennis Boone wrote: > Unfortunately, didn't have my hands on the machine until it arrived > in my driveway. I suspect the machine was moved before the auction > started anyway. Yesterday I finally got inside the two drives > which are not labeled bad. One has no hda at all; the other is not > locked down. Sigh. Is this a guaranteed bad, or just highly likely? Highly likely... I did move an RB80 across town once, unlocked, as a neophyte teenager, and it managed to survive, but it was still luck. You may be lucky, too, but I wouldn't bet on it. > Any way to test or estimate non-destructively? Well... if it's roached, it's roached. Might as well spin it up. One can crack the case and plug in a dumb terminal (1200baud?) to the DB25 inside and watch it do its thing, but really, if you see it come online (READY light) and there's no fault light (when it's plugged into a powered on SDI controller for sure; can't remember if they fault when unplugged from the controller or not), it's probably fine. With the terminal, you can watch it go through its test, but in the end, without cracking the HDA, there's nothing you can do to test the surface except spin it up. Watch out for belt tension... that's the other gotcha - there's a lever inside by the motor to slacken or tighten the belt. Normally, one ships with the belt loose. > I imagine working RA81 HDAs are unobtainium? They aren't made any more, and most of the ones that were in use in the 1980s are toast, if that's what you mean. For various revisions, due to the case glue fiasco, RA81s have a short life. We had a customer (Colorado Community College) that lost one drive per month (on service!) but that was because there's something like 30,000 hours MTBF, and they had *dozens* of drives spinning at once - the stats predicted a monthly HDA failure. I have something like n RA81s with n-2 HDAs. :-( All were free to me (local pickup, so no shipping). Unless you are hellbent on an RA81 as a replacement, you might look into a lighter drive like an RA9x or RA7x, or a 3rd party drive assembly (I have an MDA box half the size of an RA81, half loaded with 2 1.2GB ESDI drives and a 2-drive SDI board... very nice and low power... would love to find another SDI board to use with some ESDI drives I have sitting around). Given the weight, I'd personally not want to ship an RA81... when they were $26,000 (c. 1984), it was cost effective on a MB/kg basis... now, well... add to the fact that they suck 8A steady and up to 30A peak... let's put it this way... I don't fire mine up unless I have to. > Still haven't opened the RL02s. Seems like there's something > (a powered solenoid) locking the top latch? Any way to defeat it? Yes... some revs have an access port on the side - two screws. If not, one can unscrew the top rear cover (4 screws) and lift it off, then gently lift the front lid... it's kinda hard to describe, but it _is_ possible to get the front lid off by starting with the back lid. Hopefully you have an access port. You just pull it, then reach inside with thumb and forefinger and pop the solonoid. There is supposed to be a 1cm^2 head lock plate blocking the heads. Hopefully yours is thrown, and there isn't a pack mounted... to unlock the plate, use a terminal screwdriver (small flat blade), loosen the screw a turn or two, just enough to rock the plate past a locator pin, then screw it down in place out of the way of the heads. if you have a pack mounted and the heads unlocked, I'd probably pull the pack, inspect for obvious gouges, and perhaps use a mirror to inspect for any less obvious dings... if clean, then check the heads for oxide (you should be able to see them with the lid up - no need for disassembly... if no brown streaks, then you are probably OK. Also, if there's a pack mounted, check its shock watch (glass bubble in the handle) - red is bad, clear is good. One caution about the packs - they are factory formatted, unlike RK05 packs (embeded servo info like modern drives, unlike the RK05)... get a magnet near it, and you have the parts for a wall clock. :-/ -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 12:35:41 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:35:41 -0500 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: <42A48291.8030306@srv.net> References: <0IHI00ESOXV1KM24@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <5aee34649c27e3527762876b0c6d48d0@xlisper.mv.com> <42A48291.8030306@srv.net> Message-ID: On 6/6/05, Kevin Handy wrote: > You could make one like DEC used to: Take an 8-slot backplane, and > fill in four of the slots with epoxy. You now have a 4 slot backplane. Ahhhhgggg! Ever seen that with a BA123? Makes you cry... DEC didn't want their graphical workstations being converted to departmental server use, so they plugged up the extra holes in the backplane to prevent expansion. For a while, one could order a virgin backplane from spares, but they eventually caught on (then they stopped hosing workstation customers so much ;-) Fortunately, I've only ever seen it at a DECUS (DEC-owned demo machines); none of the machines I've worked with or personally owned were broken this way. -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 6 12:33:24 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 12:33:24 -0500 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: References: <20050604223214.PRUJ5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050606123137.04d6ce90@mail> At 09:36 AM 6/6/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >My must everything be open to argument all the >time here? Especially when we're debating issues that have already been >argued and resolved many times over? Receptionist: Yes, sir? Man: I'd like to have an argument please. Receptionist: Certainly, sir, have you been here before...? Man: No, this is my first time. Receptionist: I see. Do you want to have the full argument, or were you thinking of taking a course? [...] Mr Vibrating: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time. Man: I've had enough of this. Mr Vibrating: No you haven't. - John From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Jun 6 12:42:01 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:42:01 -0400 Subject: S100 Buss extender boards In-Reply-To: <200506061709.j56H91lh011275@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200506061741.j56HfqHI004241@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> I thought I had a manual, and I do, but it's for a Mullen "TB-4", not your "TB-1". And interestingly, it has neither a schematic nor a circuit board drawing (layout). These were very common boards, if anyone has the TB-1 manual, we should get it scanned to a PDF file (I volunteer, but I need the manual). From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 6 13:06:46 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:06:46 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? Message-ID: <0IHO00K8QCYFG4Y0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? > From: Kevin Handy > Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 11:06:25 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >David Betz wrote: > >> Or maybe I should just run simh... I'm not really a hardware guy anyway! >> >You could make one like DEC used to: Take an 8-slot backplane, and >fill in four of the slots with epoxy. You now have a 4 slot backplane. Yes but can you fit that in a 4.25x13x12 box with power supply? That's a BA11-VA, aka shoebox. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 6 13:26:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paul Allen's new PDP-10 website Message-ID: http://www.pdpplanet.com/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 6 13:55:32 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files Message-ID: <200506061855.LAA05347@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jan-Benedict Glaw" > >On Fri, 2005-06-03 14:57:15 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> But that's not your domain/responsibility. The PDF should have been >> perfect by the time it got to you -- PDF is a final end-destination format. >> If the scans needed touching up, they shouldn't have made it into a PDF in >> the first place. > >Wrong IMHO. As my thesis is the pure four-dimensionalism of preserving >content, it's legal (and I'd even *ask* for it) that a good preservation >format will allow later enhancements. Be it fixing some spurious black >pixels, adding textual/OCRed content or whatever. > >The person that does the scanning isn't probably the one who actually >prepares the "end-format". The "end-format" should be the result of an >access to the preserved data, not the result after preservation. Ahh. Someone else that has some common sense besides Sellam and me. Dwight > >MfG, JBG > >-- >Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 6 14:03:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? Message-ID: What is the "proper" name for the Tandy Color Computer? Is it that? Or is it "Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer"? Or is it "Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer"? I guess it also depends on what model we are talking about, so let's say the original and the CoCo2. I know the CoCo3 was pretty much labeled Tandy by then. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 6 14:09:55 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too Message-ID: <200506061909.MAA05352@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> By the way, the power supply, so far, has tested fine. I'm going to look >> for any ripple with the scope later today. I've never done that test -- >> should I DC or AC couple the scope for that test? > >AC coupled. That's really what AC coupling is for -- you want to ignore >the steady DC level (of several volts) and look at the (hopefully) much >smaller AC ripple on top of it. To do that you need to turn up the Y >sensitivity on your 'scope, and unless you have a differential comparator >input or something, you won't be able to keep the trace on-screen with DC >coupling. > >Don't worry too much about ripple on an S100 supply. The S100 supply is >not regulated -- the regulators are on each of the boards (the 8V input >is designed to be regulated down to 5V, etc). The regulators should take >care of small amounts of ripple on the backplane supply lines. > >-tony > Hi For this particular test, using DC coupled is probably best. As Dave mentions, you just don't want the voltage on the unregulated 8 volt line to drop below 7 volts. It can tolerate a relatively large ripple. Dwight From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 6 14:16:32 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:16:32 +0100 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007401c56acc$40b73bb0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Ahhhhgggg! Ever seen that with a BA123? Makes you cry... DEC > didn't want their graphical workstations being converted to > departmental server use, so they plugged up the extra holes in > the backplane to prevent expansion. For a while, one could > order a virgin backplane from spares, but they eventually > caught on (then they stopped hosing workstation customers so > much ;-) > Fortunately, I've only ever seen it at a DECUS (DEC-owned demo > machines); none of the machines I've worked with or personally > owned were broken this way. This was the (thankfully) short-lived VAXstation II/RC. The one I saw came in a BA23, not a BA123. There were companies around that would (allegedly) remove the epoxy (or whatever it was they used) and hence restore full functionality. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 14:22:54 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:22:54 -0500 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: <0IHO00K8QCYFG4Y0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IHO00K8QCYFG4Y0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 6/6/05, Allison wrote: > >You could make one like DEC used to: Take an 8-slot backplane, and > >fill in four of the slots with epoxy. You now have a 4 slot backplane. > > Yes but can you fit that in a 4.25x13x12 box with power supply? That's > a BA11-VA, aka shoebox. With a large enough hydraulic press... :-) -ethan From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Mon Jun 6 14:24:52 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:24:52 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: <0IHO00K8QCYFG4Y0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IHO00K8QCYFG4Y0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <5ca5ce9ea81b05307ba5fbea2d7d49b9@xlisper.mv.com> Is there a description somewhere of all of the BA11-?? variants? It seems that there are many of them and they are of various sizes and shapes. In fact, I think that the cabinet my 11/23-AH is mounted in is a BA11 of some sort (a BA11-AH maybe?) but it is nowhere near as small as this BA11-VA that you describe. I've found various lists of QBus modules on the net but no list of the various boxes that DEC produced. Can someone point me to one? And, I'll repeat my question, does anyone have one of these small -11 QBus boxes they'd like to sell or trade? It seems that the BA23 might be a good choice as well. Thanks, David On Jun 6, 2005, at 2:06 PM, Allison wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? >> From: Kevin Handy >> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 11:06:25 -0600 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> >> David Betz wrote: >> >>> Or maybe I should just run simh... I'm not really a hardware guy >>> anyway! >>> >> You could make one like DEC used to: Take an 8-slot backplane, and >> fill in four of the slots with epoxy. You now have a 4 slot backplane. > > > Yes but can you fit that in a 4.25x13x12 box with power supply? That's > a BA11-VA, aka shoebox. > > > Allison > From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 6 14:35:36 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:35:36 -0500 Subject: S100 Buss extender boards References: <200506061741.j56HfqHI004241@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000a01c56ace$ed6edc80$083cd7d1@randy> From: "Barry Watzman" Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 12:42 PM > I thought I had a manual, and I do, but it's for a Mullen "TB-4", not your > "TB-1". And interestingly, it has neither a schematic nor a circuit board > drawing (layout). > > These were very common boards, if anyone has the TB-1 manual, we should > get > it scanned to a PDF file (I volunteer, but I need the manual). It looks like multiple manuals are needed. I don't have one for my TB-2's but I may see about tracing it out (when I get a chance). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From news at computercollector.com Mon Jun 6 14:40:56 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:40:56 -0400 Subject: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200506061940.j56JeXo4013878@dewey.classiccmp.org> Both! According to Mike N.'s book, it is "Tandy Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer". -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 3:04 PM To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? What is the "proper" name for the Tandy Color Computer? Is it that? Or is it "Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer"? Or is it "Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer"? I guess it also depends on what model we are talking about, so let's say the original and the CoCo2. I know the CoCo3 was pretty much labeled Tandy by then. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 6 14:52:14 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:52:14 -0500 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too References: <200506061909.MAA05352@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <001d01c56ad1$40337370$083cd7d1@randy> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 2:09 PM > >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk >> >>> By the way, the power supply, so far, has tested fine. I'm going to look >>> for any ripple with the scope later today. I've never done that test -- >>> should I DC or AC couple the scope for that test? >> >>AC coupled. That's really what AC coupling is for -- you want to ignore >>the steady DC level (of several volts) and look at the (hopefully) much >>smaller AC ripple on top of it. To do that you need to turn up the Y >>sensitivity on your 'scope, and unless you have a differential comparator >>input or something, you won't be able to keep the trace on-screen with DC >>coupling. >> >>Don't worry too much about ripple on an S100 supply. The S100 supply is >>not regulated -- the regulators are on each of the boards (the 8V input >>is designed to be regulated down to 5V, etc). The regulators should take >>care of small amounts of ripple on the backplane supply lines. >> >>-tony > > Hi > For this particular test, using DC coupled is probably > best. As Dave mentions, you just don't want the voltage > on the unregulated 8 volt line to drop below 7 volts. > It can tolerate a relatively large ripple. > Dwight In this particular case I would disagree. The Imsai is fairly well filtered and I would expect less ripple, if there is much ripple I would suspect bad caps or poor connections of the caps. Of course when these caps fail you usually know it all the way down the street ;-) Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 6 14:59:05 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:59:05 -0500 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? References: <0IHO00K8QCYFG4Y0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <002c01c56ad2$35505260$083cd7d1@randy> From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 2:22 PM > On 6/6/05, Allison wrote: >> >You could make one like DEC used to: Take an 8-slot backplane, and >> >fill in four of the slots with epoxy. You now have a 4 slot backplane. >> >> Yes but can you fit that in a 4.25x13x12 box with power supply? That's >> a BA11-VA, aka shoebox. > > With a large enough hydraulic press... > > :-) > > -ethan I didn't know it was OK to use a hydraulic press for PC board installation, I was always told that if it didn't fit then you needed a bigger hammer. 4 pound hammers are less likely cause less damage than hydraulic presses. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 6 15:09:04 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:09:04 +0000 Subject: Paul Allen's new PDP-10 website In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1118088544.24761.99.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-06 at 11:26 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > http://www.pdpplanet.com/ This hit alt.folklore.computers a few days ago - Al etc., is any effort being made by the website owners to avoid duplicating documentation scans that are already on bitsavers? "During that period almost all Microsoft development was done on these platforms." - shame they weren't used for something useful, really :-) cheers Jules From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jun 6 15:17:51 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:17:51 -0500 Subject: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? References: <200506061940.j56JeXo4013878@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00e501c56ad4$d32b52d0$11406b43@66067007> Same thing in Haddock's book - Tandy/Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Computer Collector Newsletter" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 2:40 PM Subject: RE: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? > Both! According to Mike N.'s book, it is "Tandy Radio Shack TRS-80 Color > Computer". > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival > Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 3:04 PM > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? > > > What is the "proper" name for the Tandy Color Computer? Is it that? Or > is > it "Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer"? Or is it "Radio Shack TRS-80 Color > Computer"? > > I guess it also depends on what model we are talking about, so let's say > the > original and the CoCo2. I know the CoCo3 was pretty much labeled Tandy by > then. > > Thanks! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org > ] > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jun 6 15:24:25 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:24:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 floppy drive usefulness... In-Reply-To: <1118077594.24778.52.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1118077594.24778.52.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1247.82.152.112.73.1118089465.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Do Nascom 2 owners out there typically have an FDC board and use disks > for everything, or do they just stick with the tape interface on the > machine's CPU board? Neither of my nascom2's have floppy interfaces so read into that what you will..... > even though it seems like I could just about get away with a 15-pin one > - there's lots of room above the keys on the keyboard to add a few Did my message about the keyboard pinouts not get through? -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 6 15:54:11 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S100 address buss troubleshooting Message-ID: <200506062054.NAA05396@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dave Dunfield" > ---snip--- > >If the above gets you nowhere, then it's just a matter of sitting down with >the schematic and a scope and following the signal from that switch all the >way through to the bus at some point you should see that the zero from the >switch is not making it through a component or connector. I don't recall the >details of the IMSAI panel, but you might have to trigger on the read strobe >to catch the signal being clocked through the panel. Hi Actually the address are a little different. The processor actually generates the address. The front panel generates a JMP instruction with the address to the CPU that then generates the address to the bus. The front panel has a simple sequencer to generate the JMP, AddrLow, AddrHigh sequence. Dwight From jhoger at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 16:28:49 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:28:49 -0700 Subject: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? In-Reply-To: <00e501c56ad4$d32b52d0$11406b43@66067007> References: <200506061940.j56JeXo4013878@dewey.classiccmp.org> <00e501c56ad4$d32b52d0$11406b43@66067007> Message-ID: Just my recollection but, I've never heard of the Coco3 being called a TRS-80. Tandy Color Computer 3 I think some or all of the Coco2s were called TRS-80s. All of the Coco 1s (including some white ones) were marketed as TRS-80. At that time I didn't really hear "Tandy" used much. Perhaps it was used for the TDP-100. All I recall for the coco 1 was TRS-80 Color Computer or Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer. I guess it would be good enough to see what it says on the outside of the box or on the bottom of the unit. -- John. From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Jun 6 16:56:30 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:56:30 -0400 Subject: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? Message-ID: <20050606215628.PILH16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >What is the "proper" name for the Tandy Color Computer? Is it that? Or >is it "Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer"? Or is it "Radio Shack TRS-80 Color >Computer"? > >I guess it also depends on what model we are talking about, so let's say >the original and the CoCo2. I know the CoCo3 was pretty much labeled >Tandy by then. One answer is "BOTH", because TRS actually means "Tandy Radio Shack". However I assume you are asking about the labels on the machine and the printing on the boxes. The "Radio Shack TRS-80" was dropped/switched to "Tandy" on the labels sometime during the CoCo 2. I have a total of 8 Color Computers in my Collection: #1 Big box Large (deep) and silver in color "Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer" Separate square sticker reading "4K RAM" little square chicklet keys #2 Same box/size/color/labels except "32K RAM" Keyboard bas been upgraded, but I have the original which is the same as above. #3 Same box as above Same size, but white in color. "Radio Shack TRS-80 64k Color Computer" No memory size sticker (64k is on main label) Bigger/square keys, but still fairly flat. #4 Much Smaller box Smaller, not nearly as deep, white in color "Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer 2" No memory size sticker on top Same keys as #3 #5 Don't have the box. Same size as #3, white in color "Tandy Color Computer 2" No memory size sticker on top Full sized keys (taller) #6-#8 (all the same) Slightly smaller box than #3 (shorted lengthwise) Same size as #4, white in color "Tandy 128k Color Computer 3" No memory size sticker on top (128k on main label) Full sized keys similar to #5, although there are a couple of new ones in the lower right corner. I've been meaning to post an inquiry about the various CoCo models ... Aside from different memory sizes and standard/extended BASIC, are there any physical variants other than I have described above? I thought that all CoCo1's were silver with the chicklet keys until I just recently got #3 which was quite a suprise to me. The (Canadian) Radio Shack catalogs go directly from #1/#2 in the 1983 issue to #4 in the 1984 issue. I do not recall ever seeing a white CoCo1 with square keys before... Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 6 17:03:56 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> <200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org> <52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050606145610.R66892@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > [btw, where did we suddenly get an 8-foot floppy from!?] USUALLY that its from a typo, or a cultural difference in punctuation. I have a [damaged/unusable] platter that probably came from either a 1401 or an aftermarket drive on a 1620. It is 2 feet in diameter, but seems larger. After I showed it to a class to emphasize Moore's law, I asked them about their recollections of it from a week before - MOST estimated THREE feet, and a few went as high as FOUR! But none of them thought that it was over 5 feet, and certainly not eight. > If the 8088 has an 8 bit bus and the 8086 is 16 bits, is there a good > reason why it didn't get named the 80816? I'm assuming that's what the > last digit in the number signifies... Sorry, but the last digit is NOT bits. It was simply a progression: 8085, 8086, 8087 (FPU for 8086), 8088 (8086 chopped down to be cheap) There does not appear to be any reliable pattern to the intel numbering. There are conflicting accounts for the naming of the 4004, 8008, etc. At least the Pentium name is reasonably documented (to be more easily trademarkable (inspite of the Pentaxium)) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 6 17:07:16 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8' DSDD disk was: PC speed was Re: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <003701c56aa7$bcffa380$fb3cd7d1@randy> References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy><200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org><52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <003701c56aa7$bcffa380$fb3cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <20050606150540.M66892@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > As far as the 8' disks I always had to get a couple of buddies to help > change disks, the real bitch was the lock down bar or was that holding down > the shift key when typing ;-} ... but the 8' FLOPPY disk could be folded a few dozen times to fit in your pocket From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Mon Jun 6 17:14:17 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 23:14:17 +0100 Subject: Things to do in Minneapolis? Message-ID: <1118096057.18737.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> I'm going for a 1-week business trip to Minneapolis next week, and seeing as it was (is?) the supercomputer centre of the world I thought there might be something worth seeing? One place I probably won't be able to get to is Chippewa Falls; I arrive Saturday afternoon and the museum there isn't open on Sunday. If I do get a morning or afternoon off it will be my preferred destination. Any suggestions, or will I have to be happy with the Mall of America or The-largest-ball-of-twine-in-the-world-made-by-one-person ? LJW -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 6 17:25:55 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:25:55 -0500 Subject: 8' DSDD disk References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy><200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org><52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222><1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050606145610.R66892@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <000c01c56ae6$b86e35e0$7a3cd7d1@randy> From: "Fred Cisin" Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 5:03 PM > On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: >> [btw, where did we suddenly get an 8-foot floppy from!?] > > USUALLY that its from a typo, or a cultural difference in punctuation. > I have a [damaged/unusable] platter that probably came from either a 1401 > or an aftermarket drive on a 1620. It is 2 feet in diameter, but seems > larger. After I showed it to a class to emphasize Moore's law, I asked > them about their recollections of it from a week before - MOST estimated > THREE feet, and a few went as high as FOUR! But none of them thought that > it was over 5 feet, and certainly not eight. > > >> If the 8088 has an 8 bit bus and the 8086 is 16 bits, is there a good >> reason why it didn't get named the 80816? I'm assuming that's what the >> last digit in the number signifies... > > Sorry, but the last digit is NOT bits. It was simply a progression: > 8085, 8086, 8087 (FPU for 8086), 8088 (8086 chopped down to be cheap) > There does not appear to be any reliable pattern to the intel numbering. > There are conflicting accounts for the naming of the 4004, 8008, etc. > > At least the Pentium name is reasonably documented (to be more easily > trademarkable (inspite of the Pentaxium)) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com The real questions should be: What speed does an 8 foot disk rotate at? How big is the drive? What is the power requirements for the spindle motor? What is the capacity? Were there any 8 foot hard sectored disks and how many sectors? Were track density measured in TPI or TPF? How much does a box of ten disks cost? Is there an S100 interface? :) Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 6 17:37:57 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? In-Reply-To: <20050606215628.PILH16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050606215628.PILH16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20050606153327.L66892@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I've been meaning to post an inquiry about the various CoCo > models ... Aside from different memory sizes and standard/extended > BASIC, are there any physical variants other than I have described > above? There were multiple different models of motherboard. I don't remember any of the details, other than piggy-backed 16s v 64K RAM chips in the 32K, but "Dr. Marty" Goodman should be able to give you full details. There were also several different models of the floppy controller. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 6 17:50:03 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:50:03 +0000 Subject: PC speed was Re: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <003701c56aa7$bcffa380$fb3cd7d1@randy> References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> <200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org> <52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <003701c56aa7$bcffa380$fb3cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <1118098203.24778.163.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-06 at 09:55 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > As far as the 8' disks I always had to get a couple of buddies to help > change disks, the real bitch was the lock down bar or was that holding down > the shift key when typing ;-} That suddenly made more sense when I realised how keys are laid out on a US keyboard :-) Until that point I thought you'd gone completely insane... From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jun 6 17:54:50 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:54:50 -0500 Subject: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <000c01c56ae6$b86e35e0$7a3cd7d1@randy> References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy><200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org><52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222><1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050606145610.R66892@shell.lmi.net> <000c01c56ae6$b86e35e0$7a3cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <42A4D43A.4080701@mdrconsult.com> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > The real questions should be: > > What speed does an 8 foot disk rotate at? > > How big is the drive? > > What is the power requirements for the spindle motor? > > What is the capacity? > > Were there any 8 foot hard sectored disks and how many sectors? > > Were track density measured in TPI or TPF? > > How much does a box of ten disks cost? > > Is there an S100 interface? You forgot the two REAL biggies: How will we preserve the contents? In what format should this disk be documented? I'll just grab my coat on the way out.... ;) Doc From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 6 17:52:51 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:52:51 +0000 Subject: Things to do in Minneapolis? In-Reply-To: <1118096057.18737.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <1118096057.18737.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <1118098371.24778.166.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-06 at 23:14 +0100, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > I'm going for a 1-week business trip to Minneapolis next week, and > seeing as it was (is?) the supercomputer centre of the world I thought > there might be something worth seeing? Seconded - I'll probs be flying into Minneapolis in the near future (staying further north, but I can spend a few days in Minneapolis if there's something worth seeing) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 6 17:59:14 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:59:14 +0000 Subject: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <000c01c56ae6$b86e35e0$7a3cd7d1@randy> References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> <200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org> <52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050606145610.R66892@shell.lmi.net> <000c01c56ae6$b86e35e0$7a3cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <1118098754.24761.170.camel@weka.localdomain> > The real questions should be: > > What speed does an 8 foot disk rotate at? > How big is the drive? > What is the power requirements for the spindle motor? > What is the capacity? > Were there any 8 foot hard sectored disks and how many sectors? > Were track density measured in TPI or TPF? > How much does a box of ten disks cost? > Is there an S100 interface? Oooh, another potential stupid project :-) (I was wondering the other week whether a reliable digital network could be made between two machines out of a couple of paper cups and a piece of string ;) From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 6 18:05:59 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:05:59 -0500 Subject: PC speed was Re: 8' DSDD disk References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy><200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org><52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222><1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain><003701c56aa7$bcffa380$fb3cd7d1@randy> <1118098203.24778.163.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <001e01c56aec$510c64c0$c13fd7d1@randy> From: "Jules Richardson" Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 5:50 PM > On Mon, 2005-06-06 at 09:55 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> As far as the 8' disks I always had to get a couple of buddies to help >> change disks, the real bitch was the lock down bar or was that holding >> down >> the shift key when typing ;-} > > That suddenly made more sense when I realised how keys are laid out on a > US keyboard :-) Until that point I thought you'd gone completely > insane... I can't guarantee anything ;-} Randy www.s100-manuals.com From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 6 18:07:04 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Things to do in Minneapolis? In-Reply-To: <1118096057.18737.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: > Any suggestions, or will I have to be happy with the Mall of America or > The-largest-ball-of-twine-in-the-world-made-by-one-person ? It is not in Kansas? I passed thru Western Kansas recently on one of the old federal highways, and passed thru the town that made it VERY clear that they had the largest ball of twine in the world. Now, you think after bragging about it, they would actually let the tourist (me) know where to see it in the thriving metropolis of 500 or so people, but NO... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 6 18:10:25 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 23:10:25 +0000 Subject: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <42A4D43A.4080701@mdrconsult.com> References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> <200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org> <52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050606145610.R66892@shell.lmi.net> <000c01c56ae6$b86e35e0$7a3cd7d1@randy> <42A4D43A.4080701@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <1118099425.24761.172.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-06 at 17:54 -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > In what format should this disk be documented? A big circular PDF. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 6 16:37:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:37:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8" DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> from "Randy McLaughlin" at Jun 5, 5 06:12:47 pm Message-ID: > Personally I think the basic design of the PC is bad but I've got enough 8" Me too... When I got my set of TechRefs, I read through the schematics and ROM listings. About every 30 seconds I would exclaim 'They did WHAT???' > disks that if I could get $20 each I could build a newer better shop to work > on my toys I truly love :-} Agreed... > > I've always thought computers should be built to maximize performance, IBM > not only appear to have ignored that but built down. They took a 5mhz brain > dead version of a 16 bit chip and ran it on an 8 bit bus @ 4.77mhz and put a > RAM limit of 448mb of RAM. The excuse of running 4.77mhz was for color > burst but I never saw a video card that didn't use its own crystal negating The original IBM CGA card (and many clones of it) used the 14.3... MHz clock from the motherboard. This was divided by 4 on the CGA card to give the NTSC colour subcarrier anr by 3 on the motherboard to give the processor clock. On the AT motherboard (both the 6 and 8 MHz versions) there's a separate 14.3... MHx oscillator to provide this clock signal. There's a similar oscillator on the expansion unit backplane since the 14.3... MHz signal is not sent through the expansion cable. AFAIK, though, you can't put the CGA card in the expansuon unit (memory accesses to the video address range are not passed to the expansion unit), so I guess IBM though this signal might be used by something else. I can't think of another IBM I/O card that uses it. > the need for the 4.77mhz. In any case the extra $0.50 it might add to a > video board versus slowing down a $3000.00 computer doesn't make any sense > any way. What makes even less sense to me was missing out the couple of cheap TTL chips (literally) that would have let them have active-low level-triggered interupts on the expansion slots. Uses had IRQ conflicts for ever more.... I once jokingly said that IBM-PC stood for 'Interrupts Being Missed, Polarity Corrupted' :-) Now why Intel sold an interrupt controller with active high inputs is also beyond me, but then again Intel were not known for good designs (I once claimed that there wasn't a single Intel LSI chip without a design misfeature at the time the PC came out...) > individualism. It's a shame we didn't have the sense to just say no to > Willy. Please note I have no personal knowledge about the EU constitution, I try to. I rarely run MS-DOS, the only version of Windows I have is v1.0 for the HP150 (!). OK, I've got M$ BASIC in ROM on some of my 8-bitters, but I don't depend on those (and other BASICs, like BASIC-09, BBC BASIC and HP71 BASIC are much nicer. Heck HP9830 BASIC is nicer than Microsoft's offering). One of the good things about classiccmp (IMHO) is that I can avoid Microsoft here (This has nothing to do with PDF files, there are plenty of tools for creating and reading them on non-Windows machines) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 6 16:39:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:39:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8" DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Jun 5, 5 07:25:36 pm Message-ID: > > Randy McLaughlin declared on Sunday 05 June 2005 06:12 pm: > > They took a 5mhz brain dead version of a 16 bit chip and ran it on an 8 > > bit bus @ 4.77mhz and put a RAM limit of 448mb of RAM. > > Err, I think you have the memory limit wrong (I'm assuming you meant > 448kB), 640kB (or 64kB on the original motherboard if you don't use a > memory expansion card) is more accurate. I thought there was an issue with the very first version of the PC DIOS where it would only use somewhat less than 640K RAM. > Ok, I don't understand that... Colorburst is (on NTSC), about 3.58 MHz, > which isn't easy to derive from 4.77MHz. I highly doubt IBM's reason > for using that speed had anything to do with (at least NTSC) video. It most certainly does!. Read the Intel 8284 clock generator data sheet (which explains the divide-by-3), look at the PC motherboard and CGA card schematics. Everyting is derrived from a 14.3... MHz crystal. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 6 16:44:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:44:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <20050605200111.55db7033.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jun 5, 5 08:01:11 pm Message-ID: > On early PC and PC-XT motherboards, there was a trimmer capacitor in the > crystal clock circuit specifically for tweaking the color burst And on the IBM PC/AT motherboard. The HMS manuals tells you to adjust it if you get no colour on a composite (NTSC) monitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 6 17:21:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:21:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: MDS CDC Disk Drive Documentation In-Reply-To: <008301c56a45$a07447f0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> from "xyz" at Jun 5, 5 10:12:48 pm Message-ID: > > One of the CDC 9404, PN 75744025 8" floppy drives in my MDS-800 is have = > a problem becoming "Ready". I swapped drives and it is the drive. = > Does anyone have a maintenance manual or any documentation on this drive = > or the cabling to the MDS. I posted wirelists of all the bits of cabling from the double-density controller board to the drives a couple of months back (I think in a reply to one of JoeR's messages). That should be in the archives -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 6 17:23:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:23:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xebec/IBM Debug Address for Low-Level Format?? In-Reply-To: <20050605.210046.14422.284615@webmail02.lax.untd.com> from "Bill Pileggi" at Jun 6, 5 04:00:28 am Message-ID: > > > I want to perform a low-level format on my Seagate ST-225 MFM hard > drive - it has the Xebec (IBM) 1210 controller card. I cannot for the Real IBM ST506 controllers don't have a low-level format routine in the ROM, you have to load a program from floppy. It was on the IBM Advanced Diagnostics disk (IIRC), I assume there's something suitable on the web somewhere. For _most clone_ hard disk controllers, the address is C800:5 BTW -tony From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 6 18:14:28 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MDS CDC Disk Drive Documentation Message-ID: <200506062314.QAA05448@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "xyz" > >Thanks Randy. > >Themanual at the web site is for a 9404-B. It has a lot of helpful >information, but the printed circuit board is more modern. I have traced >out some of the circuitry and it appears the even the pinouts from the 50 >pin connector do not match those of the 9404-B. That surprised me. > >Bob Hi Bob I was just thinking. They used a lot of one-shots for things like drive ready. I suspect that it has a one-shot connected to the index detect. You might look at the index signal to see if it look good and also check to see if there are any of those axial lead tantalums next to one-shot IC's. These old tantalums tend to fail over time. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 6 17:28:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:28:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 6, 5 11:54:14 am Message-ID: > > Yes, that was the reason. They had a 4x colorburst crystal (14.31818 MHz). > > They divided by three for the CPU clock, and by four for the colorburst. > > Does that mean that IBM machines running PAL display rates had a > slightly different CPU clock frequency as the main crystal would be > different? There's no such animal. All IBM PCs, XTs, ATs run at US video rates (for example, 60Hz vertical sync frequency). There never was a PAL version of the CGA card, etc. It was possible to re-program the CGA card (there's a 6845 in the middle of it) to give 50Hz vertical, and there were 3rd party encoder boxes that plugged into the RGB output (the DE9 connector) and produced PAL video. But they didn't use the motherboard clock for the subcarrier. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 6 17:36:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:36:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 6, 5 07:36:41 am Message-ID: > The problem has been in assuming that by making or not making > modifications to something that you are doing the right thing. I doubt > many if any people here are trained in conservation practices, and I'm not I would equally doubt if conservation practices really apply to a machine you're going to use. > claiming I am, but I do understand the issues. Suggesting the use of > solvents on any material has long term effects that, if not understood, > can do permanent damage. Rich's solution of deciding to purchase a I would love to know what permanent damage propan-2-ol does to a photographic image. It's one of the solvents normally used for cleaning film, etc. > separate face panel was in fact the correct and proper solution in this > case. Why is replacing better than restoring? > > Just recently, a thread went by where opinions were given as to the merit > > of keeping original screws in machine - I don't recall anyone bashing the > > person with that option > > Do you have a filter on Tony's messages? He completely lambasted Jules > for replacing the screws on a power supply, which I did not consider to be And I haev not changed my opinion on this.... It was a monitor and not a PSU (not that that makes any difference). I still feel there are about 3 reasons to put non-original screws in a machines. 1) You've not got the originals (the machine arrived in bits, or somethign). 2), the origiinals are damaged (striped threads, mangled slots in the heads, etc). 3) You really can't get the right tool to remove/replace them. None of those apply here. The right tool is easily available. I don't pretend to follow 'conservation principles', and I certainly make modifications to machines that I own -- because I use those machines, and often I need to do the mod to make the machine more useable. But I don't replace parts for no good reason. > seemed a bit overwhelming. My must everything be open to argument all the > time here? Especially when we're debating issues that have already been This is a discussion list. That should answer your question. > argued and resolved many times over? > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 6 17:38:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:38:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC speed was Re: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <003701c56aa7$bcffa380$fb3cd7d1@randy> from "Randy McLaughlin" at Jun 6, 5 09:55:05 am Message-ID: > Part of my original point about using 4.77Mhz is that all of the CGA cards I > ever saw had their own crystals and ignored the MB clock. Just checked the IBM CGA scheamtics, there is no crystal shown. I've also just pulled a couple of genuine IBM CGA cards out of my spares box, I can't see anything that I think is a crystal on them. Ditto for a close clone of the CGA card that I've just looked at. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 6 17:51:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:51:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help collecting gear from west of Chicago In-Reply-To: <200506061615.j56GFkwb003892@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Jun 6, 5 12:15:46 pm Message-ID: > > > > Teradyne-built items; I don't recognize the bus -- two edge connectors, > > > each wider than qbus. It doesn't look like the unibus cards I've seen. > > > Unibus and Qbus use the same double-sided 36 pin (18 pin per side) > > 0.125" pitch connectors. Q bus boards are normally dual or quad, > > Unibus are normally quad or hrx. > > These in the Teradyne chassis have 60-pin edge connectors. The full > width boards are about the same size as quad-width UNIBUS boards. > The end of the chassis with the memory cards has two such connectors. > The other end has only one connector, and an assortment of I/O cards -- > variously full of UARTs, driver transistors, ADC, etc and connected > to about 5 substantial cables. Haven't followed the cabling to see > what goes into the main CPU yet. Both front and back of this cab > are chock full of stuff so it's hard to see inside. The 11/44 has a 22 bit address bus, which means you don't normally put memory on the Unibus (you put it on special slots in the CPU backplane that carry the 22 address lines, etc). The unibus is uses only for I/O devices, only accesses to the I/O space go to the Unibus. I think it's possible to configure the machine so that the top 128Kwords of address space is mapped to the Unibus (so you can put Unibus memory on the machine for special appliactiosn). I would be suprised if that's what's been done, though > > Given that two of the boards in the teradyne chassis are memory, > I'd expect some kind of CPU, but the other cards on that end of > the bus don't seem to have appropriate parts. Perhaps some kind of > marble machine? I'll have to post photos. Remember you can make a CPU from simple TTL chips, and it doesn't take that many of them either. I would guess 150 chips would be ample.... > Unfortunately, didn't have my hands on the machine until it arrived > in my driveway. I suspect the machine was moved before the auction > started anyway. Yesterday I finally got inside the two drives > which are not labeled bad. One has no hda at all; the other is not > locked down. Sigh. Is this a guaranteed bad, or just highly likely? Very highly likely, I'm afraid :-( > Any way to test or estimate non-destructively? I imagine working > RA81 HDAs are unobtainium? I think uou just have to spin the drive up and see what happens. There should be a DB25 socket inside the drive chassis, this is a serial port that uou can connect a terminal to to run diagnostics, etc. Somebody must have the manual.. I am pretty sure you can check the heads will load and the servo will lock with a terminal here (and I don't think you need the drive to be linked to a controller). If that seems to work the HDA may be OK. > > Still haven't opened the RL02s. Seems like there's something > (a powered solenoid) locking the top latch? Any way to defeat it? Old RL's have a plate on the RHS about halfway along. Remove it (2 screws) and you can see the solenoid armature. Pull it down and you can operate the door catch. Don't forget to put the plate and gasket back on, IIRC that's part of the clean air ducting on this drive (!). On all RL's uou can get inside by getting the drive as far out of the rack as possible (that's to the normal load position, then fiddle with catches on the rack rails, then pull it out a bit more). Undo the 4 (captive) screws on the top of the drive that hold the logic cover in place. Lift this up, starting at the back and free it from under the edge of the drive door. Hook the logic cover (which contains the main logic PCB, and is linked to the rest of the drive by numerous cables) onto the back edge of the drive. Now lift the rear edge of the door carefully, operate the catch to free the front edge. Once you've done that, put he rear edge down again (so that the hinges fit into their notches) and swing the door up. It's loose, and there are a couple of spring-loaded arms that run on rollers on the chassis (this will make sense when you do it), so you need to take a little care. > Started through the manuals from Bitsavers this morning, but haven't > found the golden page yet. > > > The 11/44 PSU is the second most complicated I've ever worked on > > (it was the most complicated until I worked on an HP9845..) It's > > also got some lethal features, like 400V DC, straight from the mains, > > on barrier strip terminals inside. Please ask here (or me directly) > > before diving inside the PSU. > > Thanks for the warning. For curiosity, would the wimpy US power > version have 400V, or more like 200? No, it's still 400V. 230V models full-wave rectify the mains and apply it to a pair of coke-can size capacitors at the left side of the chassis. 115V versions use those 2 caps and 2 of the diodes of the bridge to make a voltage doubler. You get 400V applied to the chopper in either case. And it's easily enough to kill you. > > Supposedly I have a set of 11/44 prints on the way from .nl which > may help. I have the printset (including the PSU) but no easy way to get bits of it to you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 6 17:52:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:52:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Screw Drivers and PDF Files In-Reply-To: <200506061703.KAA05301@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at Jun 6, 5 10:03:03 am Message-ID: > >[1] I have neither the skill nor the test gear to maintain a modern PC. > ^^^^^ > I doubt that! Maybe you don't have the documentation > but I suspect your knowledge is just fine. I don;'t have the documentation, that's true. I also don't have a BGA re-work station, and have never used one (so I can't claim the necessary skills to replace a BGA chip, for example). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 6 17:55:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:55:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 floppy drive usefulness... In-Reply-To: <1118077594.24778.52.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 6, 5 05:06:34 pm Message-ID: > > > Urgh. I can't decide whether to add a connector for a floppy disk to the > connector panel on this Nascom 2 case that I'm building. I don't *have* I wouldn't bother. My Nascom doesn't have an FDC either. > a FDC board for it anyway, plus I only have a 2-slot backplane (at the > moment; there's room in the box for 7 or 8 boards probably). Let me guess, you've got a DRAM card in the other slot. At one point, 4118 SRAM chips, used on the main Nascom board, were very hard to get. The machine was supplied with none of said chip (or maybe one, used in the video circuit, I forget), but with a 16K DRAM board and a 2 slot backplane. It is possible to do a cut-n-jumper mod to put 6116s in the Nascom board, I believe. > What's the maximum cable length for a floppy drive anyway? Quite long (at least 1m) if correctly terminated. -tony From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 6 18:06:47 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 00:06:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: David Betz "Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11?" (Jun 6, 15:24) References: <0IHO00K8QCYFG4Y0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <5ca5ce9ea81b05307ba5fbea2d7d49b9@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <10506070006.ZM24199@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 6 2005, 15:24, David Betz wrote: > Is there a description somewhere of all of the BA11-?? variants? It > seems that there are many of them and they are of various sizes and > shapes. Possibly not all, but one of my web pages lists most Q-bus boxes and backplanes. Additions are always welcome :-) http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Jun 6 18:25:41 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 19:25:41 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: <29a0a8886d35b35d72ed8fa0edb6b2e3@xlisper.mv.com> References: <17056.31590.897861.483700@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200506031626.15771.pat@computer-refuge.org> <29a0a8886d35b35d72ed8fa0edb6b2e3@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <42A4DB75.9090407@compsys.to> >David Betz wrote: >Cool. Thanks! I wonder if it can boot RT-11? Jerome Fine replies: RT-11 can boot any device which looks like a disk drive - for which there is also the boot code in the device driver. Thus far I am not aware of any such devices that do not have the needed boot code, including the DD(X).SYS device driver for the TU-58. There is, of course, ONE exception - the LD(X).SYS device driver which is DEC's answer in RT-11 for sub-directories. >Or maybe I should just run simh... I'm not really a hardware guy anyway! If you first want to become experienced with RT-11 without all the hardware problems, then there are several V05.03 RT-11 distributions available. One of those distributions also includes all of the prior RT-11 distributions. The file, RT11DV10.ISO.zip is at: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ Note that you can actually boot the CD that can be burned from RT11DV10.ISO (after you UnZip the file). Or if you run SIMH, you can: ATTACH RQ0: RT11DV10.ISO SET RQ0: LOCK BOOT RQ0: to run V05.03 of RT-11. Of course, you can also legally run under E11 if you purchase an RT-11 license from Mentec for about $ US 900 (the latest price I have heard) and perhaps the distribution kit for $ US 1600 (also the latest I have heard). For hobby use, there is no charge for the hobby use of E11. The E11 commands are: MOUNT DU0: RT11DV10.ISO/RONLY BOOT DU0: If you can use some help with running RT-11, please ask >And, I'll repeat my question, does anyone have one of these small -11 >QBus boxes they'd like to sell or trade? It seems that the BA23 might >be a good choice as well. If you really want to run on real DEC hardware, then you obviously need some sort of disk drive as well. Even a TU-58 needs additional space and the 4 * 4 backplane is just too small to be really useful. The BA23 box is probably a much better solution since there is also space for 2 * 5 1/4" drives and the power to run them. An M7555 RQDX3 and an RX50 floppy is probably two orders of magnitude better than a TU-58. A hard disk drive might be a bit more difficult, although an old ST412 at 10 MBytes looks like (actually is) an RD51. But until you know a bit about RT-11, I still suggest that using an emulator is much more effective - especially if you are running RT-11 because you want to use the software, not the hardware. As an RT-11 software addict, I use an emulator to run RT-11 99.9% of the time. Both SIMH and E11 are acceptable - but even the hobby version of E11 is, in my experience, an order of magnitude better. Now if you want to discuss the commercial version of E11, ... Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Jun 6 18:26:16 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 19:26:16 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: References: <0IHI00ESOXV1KM24@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <5aee34649c27e3527762876b0c6d48d0@xlisper.mv.com> <42A48291.8030306@srv.net> Message-ID: <42A4DB98.50405@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >>On 6/6/05, Kevin Handy wrote: > > >>You could make one like DEC used to: Take an 8-slot backplane, and >>fill in four of the slots with epoxy. You now have a 4 slot backplane. >> >> >Ahhhhgggg! Ever seen that with a BA123? Makes you cry... DEC didn't >want their graphical workstations being converted to departmental >server use, so they plugged up the extra holes in the backplane to >prevent expansion. For a while, one could order a virgin backplane >from spares, but they eventually caught on (then they stopped hosing >workstation customers so much ;-) > >Fortunately, I've only ever seen it at a DECUS (DEC-owned demo >machines); none of the machines I've worked with or personally owned >were broken this way. > Jerome Fine replies: In the interest of proving that it was done (I suppose that this is NOT proof that DEC did the foul deed), I saved one of those backplanes from an old BA23 box. As a matter of record, only the last 3 slots have epoxy. If anyone wants the proof, I will save it for you since it is about time to toss it in the trash where it belongs. By the way, as Antonio states below, this backplane is an 8 * 4 slot from a BA23!!!!!!!! Maybe Ethan's finger slipped and added an extra "1" after the "BA"????????????? I can't see that DEC would have converted a BA123, but I guess that DEC could have done anything at that. >Antonio Carlini wrote: >This was the (thankfully) short-lived VAXstation II/RC. The >one I saw came in a BA23, not a BA123. There were companies >around that would (allegedly) remove the epoxy (or whatever >it was they used) and hence restore full functionality. Just so I could say I tried, I once spent a few hours attempting to remove the epoxy - not a cost effective use of my time. I suspect that these companies were more likely to have either purchased a replacement backplane or found a damaged BA23 with a good backplane and removed the good backplane. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Jun 6 18:27:50 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 19:27:50 -0400 Subject: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <1118098754.24761.170.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <000c01c56ae6$b86e35e0$7a3cd7d1@randy> <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> <200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org> <52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050606145610.R66892@shell.lmi.net> <000c01c56ae6$b86e35e0$7a3cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050606192457.03d63888@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: > > The real questions should be: > > > > What speed does an 8 foot disk rotate at? > > How big is the drive? > > What is the power requirements for the spindle motor? > > What is the capacity? > > Were there any 8 foot hard sectored disks and how many sectors? > > Were track density measured in TPI or TPF? > > How much does a box of ten disks cost? > > Is there an S100 interface? > >Oooh, another potential stupid project :-) (I was wondering the other >week whether a reliable digital network could be made between two >machines out of a couple of paper cups and a piece of string ;) I thought it had been done... IIRC there was a router that could be clocked down to durned near DC, and someone did just that with a pair of 'em... I'm gonna tick off Sellam, tho, and not google for it. ;-) [[ Also IIRC, there might be a reference to it somewhere in the archives -- somewhere in my feeble memory I thought that came up once before... ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From news at computercollector.com Mon Jun 6 18:29:39 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:29:39 -0400 Subject: Things to do in Minneapolis? In-Reply-To: <1118096057.18737.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <200506062329.j56NTII4017153@dewey.classiccmp.org> You should visit the Charles Babbage Institute. However, I'm 99% sure that it requires an appointment and a legitimate research request. http://www.cbi.umn.edu/index.html -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Wilkinson Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 6:14 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Things to do in Minneapolis? I'm going for a 1-week business trip to Minneapolis next week, and seeing as it was (is?) the supercomputer centre of the world I thought there might be something worth seeing? One place I probably won't be able to get to is Chippewa Falls; I arrive Saturday afternoon and the museum there isn't open on Sunday. If I do get a morning or afternoon off it will be my preferred destination. Any suggestions, or will I have to be happy with the Mall of America or The-largest-ball-of-twine-in-the-world-made-by-one-person ? LJW -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 18:57:32 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:57:32 -0400 Subject: 8" DSDD disk In-Reply-To: References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: On 6/6/05, Tony Duell wrote: > The original IBM CGA card (and many clones of it) used the 14.3... MHz > clock from the motherboard. This was divided by 4 on the CGA card to give > the NTSC colour subcarrier anr by 3 on the motherboard to give the > processor clock. > > On the AT motherboard (both the 6 and 8 MHz versions) there's a separate > 14.3... MHx oscillator to provide this clock signal... Because it's part of the ISA definition, the GG2 Bus+ has a 14.3.. MHz oscillator just to provide that one signal... it's the second most expensive single part on the board (behind the 22V10 GAL). If I ever do another build, I may just make it an option, since I've never seen an I/O board that uses it either, certainly not the IDE, Ethernet, or parallel/serial boards that are the options supported under AmigaDOS. -ethan From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 6 19:07:21 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:07:21 -0500 Subject: Xebec/IBM Debug Address for Low-Level Format?? References: Message-ID: <003401c56af4$e3df16a0$d53cd7d1@randy> From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 5:23 PM >> I want to perform a low-level format on my Seagate ST-225 MFM hard >> drive - it has the Xebec (IBM) 1210 controller card. I cannot for the > > Real IBM ST506 controllers don't have a low-level format routine in the > ROM, you have to load a program from floppy. It was on the IBM Advanced > Diagnostics disk (IIRC), I assume there's something suitable on the web > somewhere. > > For _most clone_ hard disk controllers, the address is C800:5 BTW > > -tony FWIW most clones used an offset of 5 (C800:5, CC00:5, etc) but Adaptec used CCC (C800:CCC, CC00:CCC). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon Jun 6 19:22:28 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:22:28 -0700 Subject: 8" DSDD disk Message-ID: <000501c56af7$0622d6a0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Here is the World's Largest Floppy Disk Drive. (Over 100 feet.) http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Creative_Computing/Large_Disk.htm Michael Holley From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 6 19:20:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > The problem has been in assuming that by making or not making > > modifications to something that you are doing the right thing. I doubt > > many if any people here are trained in conservation practices, and I'm not > > I would equally doubt if conservation practices really apply to a machine > you're going to use. Thanks for the non-obvious point that is otherwise completely useless. > > claiming I am, but I do understand the issues. Suggesting the use of > > solvents on any material has long term effects that, if not understood, > > can do permanent damage. Rich's solution of deciding to purchase a > > I would love to know what permanent damage propan-2-ol does to a > photographic image. It's one of the solvents normally used for cleaning > film, etc. Why don't you spend some time researching it and get back to us? > > separate face panel was in fact the correct and proper solution in this > > case. > > Why is replacing better than restoring? Did you read the discussion, or are you just asking mindless questions to give this thread unnaturally long life? > I don't pretend to follow 'conservation principles', and I certainly make > modifications to machines that I own -- because I use those machines, and > often I need to do the mod to make the machine more useable. But I don't > replace parts for no good reason. Thanks for the wholly unnecessary clarification. > > seemed a bit overwhelming. My must everything be open to argument all the > > time here? Especially when we're debating issues that have already been > > This is a discussion list. That should answer your question. Really? Because of late it seems to be a "contribute useless blather just to keep the conversation going" list. Your reply is a good example. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jun 6 19:48:08 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:48:08 -0400 Subject: MDS CDC Disk Drive Documentation In-Reply-To: <200506062314.QAA05448@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200506062314.QAA05448@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <42A4EEC8.nailO1W11XZ1M@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > [...] index detect. You might look at the index signal to see if it > looks good At the same time check mechanical alignment for both the index emitter and detector and for dust/paper/etc that might be blocking it. Often just blowing out the dust works wonders. Tim. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 6 20:20:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 21:20:36 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? Message-ID: <0IHO00CSVX1EJGE2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? > From: David Betz > Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:24:52 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Is there a description somewhere of all of the BA11-?? variants? It >seems that there are many of them and they are of various sizes and >shapes. In fact, I think that the cabinet my 11/23-AH is mounted in is >a BA11 of some sort (a BA11-AH maybe?) but it is nowhere near as small >as this BA11-VA that you describe. I've found various lists of QBus >modules on the net but no list of the various boxes that DEC produced. >Can someone point me to one? Don't know of one on line. I have the set "LSI-11 Systems Service Manuals" as my reference. >And, I'll repeat my question, does anyone have one of these small -11 >QBus boxes they'd like to sell or trade? It seems that the BA23 might >be a good choice as well. > >Thanks, >David Basically all of the BA11 boxes are rack sized and vary only in power supply, backplane configuration and some variation in front pannel. The BA-11-va is one of a few small boxes. Another choice is the BA23 in the floor standing case. Actually a BA11 rack box is only twice the size of the BA11-va and can be used as a desktop case. I've done this with the drives just sitting on top stealing power from the BA11 supply. The options of such a configuration are much greater due to larger backplane. I've seen one such done this way with a wood (Plywood) case surrounding a BA11-N and twice the height to allow a floppy and a RD52. Much smaller than a rack and still very useful. Allison From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 6 20:39:54 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:39:54 -0500 Subject: heathkit H17 Message-ID: <010e01c56b01$ce706960$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Forgot to post it.... the Heathkit H-17 floppy drive was claimed! No interest in the HP3K ATP part, so it was pitched. Jay From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 6 21:03:13 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? In-Reply-To: References: <200506061940.j56JeXo4013878@dewey.classiccmp.org> <00e501c56ad4$d32b52d0$11406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <57565.207.145.53.202.1118109793.squirrel@207.145.53.202> John wrote: > All of the Coco 1s (including some white ones) were marketed as TRS-80. Are you sure there were any while Coco 1s? I thought the color change arrived with the Coco 2. From rsnats at bellsouth.net Mon Jun 6 21:07:05 2005 From: rsnats at bellsouth.net (xyz) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:07:05 -0500 Subject: MDS CDC Disk Drive Documentation References: <008301c56a45$a07447f0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e><000601c56a47$dc4c0900$413dd7d1@randy><000701c56a89$d7a18dc0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e><003a01c56aa9$8d2e5b90$fb3cd7d1@randy> <000c01c56ab7$ec1ed450$843cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <001d01c56b05$9d0fe400$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> Good News, I traced the signals back to the index pulse driving a flipflop. The pulse was not large enough to trigger the FF so I cleaned and peaked the sensor's output. The drive now becomes ready and seeks. Bad News, The drives still want boot from the floppy, but I am closer Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy McLaughlin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 11:50 AM Subject: Re: MDS CDC Disk Drive Documentation > From: "Randy McLaughlin" > Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 10:06 AM > > > > From: "xyz" > > Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 6:21 AM > > > >> Thanks Randy. > >> > >> Themanual at the web site is for a 9404-B. It has a lot of helpful > >> information, but the printed circuit board is more modern. I have > >> traced > >> out some of the circuitry and it appears the even the pinouts from the 50 > >> pin connector do not match those of the 9404-B. That surprised me. > >> > >> Bob > > > > > > I've got a paper manual from the Radio Shack model II technical manual but > > I bet it's also for the -B. > > > > I'll look and let you know. > > > > Sorry I assumed Al had what you needed. > > > > If you find the right manual please pass it on to Al or myself. > > > > Randy > > www.s100-manuals.com > > My hardcopy is also a -B. > > > Randy > > > From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 6 21:16:09 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:16:09 -0500 Subject: 8" DSDD disk References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <000c01c56b06$e29923f0$043dd7d1@randy> From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 6:57 PM > On 6/6/05, Tony Duell wrote: >> The original IBM CGA card (and many clones of it) used the 14.3... MHz >> clock from the motherboard. This was divided by 4 on the CGA card to give >> the NTSC colour subcarrier anr by 3 on the motherboard to give the >> processor clock. >> >> On the AT motherboard (both the 6 and 8 MHz versions) there's a separate >> 14.3... MHx oscillator to provide this clock signal... > > Because it's part of the ISA definition, the GG2 Bus+ has a 14.3.. MHz > oscillator just to provide that one signal... it's the second most > expensive single part on the board (behind the 22V10 GAL). If I ever > do another build, I may just make it an option, since I've never seen > an I/O board that uses it either, certainly not the IDE, Ethernet, or > parallel/serial boards that are the options supported under AmigaDOS. > > -ethan It was common to just change the crystal to 24Mhz and ignore the 14.3. I used a few CGA cards all had their own clocks. I believe the one I used the most was an MCT 1/3 length card that included composite video on the monochrome pin. It came with a 9 pin to RCA plug. Another I used a lot was an MCT full length card that included 2 serial, 1 lpt, clock, and floppy. It had jumpers to allow PAL on the composite out. I would use this and a hard disk controller for a full system with only two cards. It's been a while but on every system I over-clocked I never had an issue with the CGA but I can't guarantee what cards I used. I used a good variety of video cards but which ones on systems with changed crystals and which ones used a separate oscillator (switchable) I can't swear to. I did use CGA cards on systems without the 14.3Mhz line being valid. I started by changing the crystals but all of the last hacked systems were switchable and left the 14.3Mhz crystal in. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 6 21:21:25 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:21:25 -0500 Subject: 8" DSDD disk References: <000501c56af7$0622d6a0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <001301c56b07$9e4b8660$043dd7d1@randy> From: "Michael Holley" Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 7:22 PM > Here is the World's Largest Floppy Disk Drive. (Over 100 feet.) > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Creative_Computing/Large_Disk.htm > > Michael Holley I never figured it out but I've noticed that some of the best things get built in April. Has anyone else noticed that? The problem with this drive is I think they only sold them with the Commodore serial interface. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 21:25:00 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:25:00 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: <42A4DB98.50405@compsys.to> References: <0IHI00ESOXV1KM24@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <5aee34649c27e3527762876b0c6d48d0@xlisper.mv.com> <42A48291.8030306@srv.net> <42A4DB98.50405@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 6/6/05, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > By the way, > as Antonio states below, this backplane is an 8 * 4 > slot from a BA23!!!!!!!! Maybe Ethan's finger slipped > and added an extra "1" after the "BA"????????????? > I can't see that DEC would have converted a BA123, > but I guess that DEC could have done anything at that. I did not slip - my recollection was that it was not only the BA23 that DEC gummed up... since the BA123 was so expandable (drives _and_ cards) compared to the BA23, that they didn't want someone to buy a GPX-II for less money than a MicroVAX-II in a BA123, then ignore or remove the graphics cards and turn the former workstation into a nice departmental server. If you were around in those days, you may care to skip the rest of the message, but if you are wondering what they were thinking, read on... Back in the day, an unlimited MicroVAX-II in a BA-23 came out at around $20K (possibly a few $K more), but workstations were well under $20K. Memory was a big throttle for being able to use the system for more than a single user (1MB on the CPU board, 2 PMI slots available in a BA23, with 16MB being max for the KA630) If one could keep the machine to a max of 9MB, then it effectively limits how many people can be productive on it. It wasn't until the MicroVAX 2000/VAXstation 2000 that DEC implemented a CPU protection scheme (a jumper on the motherboard shows up as a detectable variation, so if one is willing to crack the case - not a problem with something this old - one can flip-flop a VS2000 to a MV2000 and back). With the KA630 design (MicroVAX-II), there was no way to enforce a marketing/licensing scheme except by limiting expansion the hard way. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 21:32:17 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:32:17 -0400 Subject: 8" DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <000501c56af7$0622d6a0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> References: <000501c56af7$0622d6a0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: On 6/6/05, Michael Holley wrote: > Here is the World's Largest Floppy Disk Drive. (Over 100 feet.) > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Creative_Computing/Large_Disk.htm Heh... I remember seeing this one when it hit the streets (but I misremembered it was in Byte, or maybe it was there, too). I love the bit about trying to spin it at 30,000 RPM... long before it hits that speed, relativistic effects will kick in. -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 6 21:42:50 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:42:50 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? Message-ID: <0IHP00CY30UE7J34@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? > From: "Jerome H. Fine" > Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 19:25:41 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >David Betz wrote: > >Cool. Thanks! I wonder if it can boot RT-11? > >Jerome Fine replies: > >RT-11 can boot any device which looks like a >disk drive - for which there is also the boot >code in the device driver. Thus far I am not >aware of any such devices that do not have >the needed boot code, including the DD(X).SYS >device driver for the TU-58. > >There is, of course, ONE exception - the >LD(X).SYS device driver which is DEC's answer >in RT-11 for sub-directories. > >>Or maybe I should just run simh... I'm not really a hardware guy anyway! > >If you first want to become experienced with RT-11 >without all the hardware problems, then there are >several V05.03 RT-11 distributions available. One >of those distributions also includes all of the prior >RT-11 distributions. The file, RT11DV10.ISO.zip is at: >http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ >Note that you can actually boot the CD that can be >burned from RT11DV10.ISO (after you UnZip the file). >Or if you run SIMH, you can: >ATTACH RQ0: RT11DV10.ISO >SET RQ0: LOCK >BOOT RQ0: >to run V05.03 of RT-11. Of course, you can also legally >run under E11 if you purchase an RT-11 license from Mentec >for about $ US 900 (the latest price I have heard) and >perhaps the distribution kit for $ US 1600 (also the latest >I have heard). For hobby use, there is no charge for the >hobby use of E11. The E11 commands are: >MOUNT DU0: RT11DV10.ISO/RONLY >BOOT DU0: > >If you can use some help with running RT-11, please ask > >>And, I'll repeat my question, does anyone have one of these small -11 >>QBus boxes they'd like to sell or trade? It seems that the BA23 might >>be a good choice as well. > >If you really want to run on real DEC hardware, then >you obviously need some sort of disk drive as well. >Even a TU-58 needs additional space and the 4 * 4 >backplane is just too small to be really useful. The TU58 only wants a serial port. My 4board config: m8186 KDF-11A m8059 MSV-11LK (256kb) (Run XM use VM (192k ramdisk) m8043 DLV11J console, printer, modem and DD: m8021 MRV11-BA with TUboot roms >The BA23 box is probably a much better solution since >there is also space for 2 * 5 1/4" drives and the power >to run them. An M7555 RQDX3 and an RX50 floppy is >probably two orders of magnitude better than a TU-58. >A hard disk drive might be a bit more difficult, although >an old ST412 at 10 MBytes looks like (actually is) an >RD51. The BA23 is bearly 30" deep. Using RQDX2/3 controller with the disti pannel from a BA123 allows RD50/51/52/53 drives and RD52s (31mb are easy to find and likely good if you find one) plus Either RX50 or RX33(teac FD55GFV) which is easier find as it was used in PCs. The upside of a larger box is that with any disk or even TU58 you can have a better cpu (11/23b with boot roms) more ram up to 4mb and any device that you wish for IO. RT-11 XM with the VM driver in 1mb or more of ram is a slick system as you can copy everything to VM: (RAM disk) and boot it making it extremely fast. and even as little as 256kb of ram is very usable as a base RT system fits in less than 200k of disk. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 6 21:46:14 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:46:14 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? Message-ID: <0IHP006P0101JP03@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? > From: "Jerome H. Fine" > Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 19:26:16 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>>On 6/6/05, Kevin Handy wrote: >> >> >>>You could make one like DEC used to: Take an 8-slot backplane, and >>>fill in four of the slots with epoxy. You now have a 4 slot backplane. >>> >>> >>Ahhhhgggg! Ever seen that with a BA123? Makes you cry... DEC didn't >>want their graphical workstations being converted to departmental >>server use, so they plugged up the extra holes in the backplane to >>prevent expansion. For a while, one could order a virgin backplane >>from spares, but they eventually caught on (then they stopped hosing >>workstation customers so much ;-) >> >>Fortunately, I've only ever seen it at a DECUS (DEC-owned demo >>machines); none of the machines I've worked with or personally owned >>were broken this way. >> >Jerome Fine replies: > >In the interest of proving that it was done (I >suppose that this is NOT proof that DEC did the >foul deed), I saved one of those backplanes from >an old BA23 box. As a matter of record, only the >last 3 slots have epoxy. If anyone wants the proof, >I will save it for you since it is about time to >toss it in the trash where it belongs. By the way, >as Antonio states below, this backplane is an 8 * 4 >slot from a BA23!!!!!!!! Maybe Ethan's finger slipped >and added an extra "1" after the "BA"????????????? >I can't see that DEC would have converted a BA123, >but I guess that DEC could have done anything at that. > >>Antonio Carlini wrote: > > >This was the (thankfully) short-lived VAXstation II/RC. The > >one I saw came in a BA23, not a BA123. There were companies > >around that would (allegedly) remove the epoxy (or whatever > >it was they used) and hence restore full functionality. > >Just so I could say I tried, I once spent a few >hours attempting to remove the epoxy - not a cost >effective use of my time. I suspect that these >companies were more likely to have either purchased >a replacement backplane or found a damaged BA23 >with a good backplane and removed the good backplane. Thats what FS did! Note there were differenet backplanes used in the BA23 those that were compatable with uVAX-1, those that were uVAX-II and the microPDP-11. Use the wrong one with the desired CPU and bad results happen. Allison From ohh at drizzle.com Mon Jun 6 21:23:33 2005 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:23:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... Message-ID: I don't know if this is bad news or even worse news, but for those who haven't heard yet: "At its Worldwide Developer Conference today, Apple announced plans to deliver models of its Macintosh computers using Intel microprocessors by this time next year, and to transition all of its Macs to using Intel microprocessors by the end of 2007. Apple previewed a version of its critically acclaimed operating system, Mac OS X Tiger, running on an Intel-based Mac to the over 3,800 developers attending..." http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/jun/06intel.html I think most of the eggs are in one basket now, and not a very reliable basket at that. :( Opinions? -O.- From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Jun 6 22:00:57 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:00:57 -0500 Subject: Generators was Re: S100 address buss troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <001601c56a0b$85088600$0a90d6d1@randy> References: <007701c56a04$4ce88f10$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <001201c56a06$41e71b20$403dd7d1@randy> <001601c56a0b$85088600$0a90d6d1@randy> Message-ID: <20050606220057.4e6814ed.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:16:37 -0500 "Randy McLaughlin" wrote: > It's funny I got the generator through some horse-trading from a buddy > a few years ago. It was a millennium generator (when everyone thought > everything would turn off in 2000). It had never even had oil put > into it before I got it. My wife works at Menards in the hardware dept. Believe me, some people don't let the lack of oil in a gas engine stop them from using it. For a short while, anyway. Then they bring it back to the store. ;( From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Jun 6 22:16:24 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:16:24 -0500 Subject: Xebec/IBM Debug Address for Low-Level Format?? In-Reply-To: <20050605.210046.14422.284615@webmail02.lax.untd.com> References: <20050605.210046.14422.284615@webmail02.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <20050606221624.2aa7463f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 04:00:28 GMT "Bill Pileggi" wrote: > > I want to perform a low-level format on my Seagate ST-225 MFM hard > drive - it has the Xebec (IBM) 1210 controller card. I cannot for the > life of me remember the address to use in Debug. I know how to use > Debug; I've done 100's of LL formats - just not in the last dozen > years or so. Does Anybody remember?? Please email off-list. Thank > you.... My HDD is working, I just want to set it up right from > scratch. (In case anybody's wondering, I do a LL format on IDE drives > before using them, too.) Bill Pileggi > For a Xebec board, there isn't a single BIOS address that you can just jump to with the debug command. You have to poke info into several registers with debug, which 'kicks off' the controller card to do a low-level format of the drive. It silently picks up and the hard drive light goes active, then eventually goes out. With no feedback, but I believe there's a register you can then read with debug to see that it formatted properly. It's a rather 'blind' formatting routine. I don't know if I have a list of the commands to give anymore. I believe you can 'reverse engineer' it by reading the I/O register commands and what-not in the technical reference for the card. Which I remember seeing published somewhere once. Again I may have it, but it's waaaay back in the archives. Somebody needs to write an 'early PC/PC-clone hard drive FAQ' that contains all this stuff. OR is there one already? From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 6 22:12:52 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:12:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I think most of the eggs are in one basket now, and not a very reliable > basket at that. :( Opinions? Yes - this doesn't have anything to do with classic computing. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 22:16:10 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 04:16:10 +0100 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af050606201637f8ee8b@mail.gmail.com> On 6/7/05, O. Sharp wrote: > I think most of the eggs are in one basket now, and not a very reliable > basket at that. :( Opinions? It's a sad day; the end of an era. Every major computer platform in the world runs on the oldest, and arguably weakest and cruftiest, CPU architecture there is. CISC has won. New there really is only one battle left: Unix versus Windows. Windows 'Longhorn' versus OS X 10.5, 'Leopard'. The leftovers go to Linux, which is Unix anyway. So much for diversity. -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 6 22:18:43 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: from "O. Sharp" at "Jun 6, 5 07:23:33 pm" Message-ID: <200506070318.UAA14616@floodgap.com> (OT added) > I don't know if this is bad news or even worse news, but for those who > haven't heard yet: > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/jun/06intel.html It's bad news. I've been nauseous all day. I think by removing the last piece of "unique" out of modern Macs -- the PPC CPU -- Apple has just announced they're in the PC business. Once VPC gets to the point where Windows apps are no longer second class citizens in the Mac world (like they are under VPC now), and run at or near full speed, Macintosh will cease to be relevant because who would want to write a Mac app when a Win app will do? This is the same thing that killed OS/2. I'll buy a G5 before they disappear, and then find some new platform to colonize. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The computer's running some sort of --- program!!! -- "Terminal", bad TV --- From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 6 22:31:40 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:31:40 -0700 Subject: Xebec/IBM Debug Address for Low-Level Format?? References: <200506061708.j56H8NDt011243@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42A5151C.D9C33C8C@rain.org> I posted the Xebec debug commands to low-level the HD sometime in the last couple of months. Check the archives and they are most likely there. It is not a simple "go to" like the WD controllers, but rather a series of IIRC I/O commands issued to the controller. > I want to perform a low-level format on my Seagate ST-225 MFM hard drive - it has the Xebec (IBM) 1210 controller card. I cannot for the life of me remember the address to use in Debug. I know how to use Debug; I've done 100's of LL formats - just not in the last dozen years or so. Does Anybody remember?? Please email off-list. Thank you.... My HDD is working, I just want to set it up right from scratch. (In case anybody's wondering, I do a LL format on IDE drives before using them, too.) Bill Pileggi From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 6 22:36:50 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:36:50 -0500 Subject: Generators was Re: S100 address buss troubleshooting References: <007701c56a04$4ce88f10$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza><001201c56a06$41e71b20$403dd7d1@randy><001601c56a0b$85088600$0a90d6d1@randy> <20050606220057.4e6814ed.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001801c56b12$2773a1c0$0290d6d1@randy> From: "Scott Stevens" Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 10:00 PM > On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:16:37 -0500 > "Randy McLaughlin" wrote: > >> It's funny I got the generator through some horse-trading from a buddy >> a few years ago. It was a millennium generator (when everyone thought >> everything would turn off in 2000). It had never even had oil put >> into it before I got it. > > My wife works at Menards in the hardware dept. Believe me, some people > don't let the lack of oil in a gas engine stop them from using it. For > a short while, anyway. Then they bring it back to the store. ;( Luckily mine has a sensor and won't run without oil. My neighbor's generator's gas tank is like a square donut and the spark-plug is accessible through the hole, my generator's spark-plug is offset at an angle through the side. Seems a little stupid having the spark-plug right next to the gas fill cap. I told my neighbor that most generator related injuries come from adding gas to a hot generator and he should be careful. Every year people blow themselves up adding gas to a running generator. My neighbors generator looks like they designed it to get someone hurt. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From news at computercollector.com Mon Jun 6 22:41:08 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:41:08 -0400 Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506070318.UAA14616@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200506070340.j573ep1A021683@dewey.classiccmp.org> >>>> Macintosh will cease to be relevant because who would want to write a Mac app when a Win app will do? Mac ceased to be relevant for exactly that reason ten years ago. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 11:19 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Apple Goes Intel... (OT added) > I don't know if this is bad news or even worse news, but for those who > haven't heard yet: > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/jun/06intel.html It's bad news. I've been nauseous all day. I think by removing the last piece of "unique" out of modern Macs -- the PPC CPU -- Apple has just announced they're in the PC business. Once VPC gets to the point where Windows apps are no longer second class citizens in the Mac world (like they are under VPC now), and run at or near full speed, Macintosh will cease to be relevant because who would want to write a Mac app when a Win app will do? This is the same thing that killed OS/2. I'll buy a G5 before they disappear, and then find some new platform to colonize. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The computer's running some sort of --- program!!! -- "Terminal", bad TV --- From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 22:52:17 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:52:17 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506070318.UAA14616@floodgap.com> References: <200506070318.UAA14616@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 6/6/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > (OT added) > > > I don't know if this is bad news or even worse news, but for those who > > haven't heard yet: > > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/jun/06intel.html > > It's bad news. I've been nauseous all day. > > I think by removing the last piece of "unique" out of modern Macs -- the PPC > CPU -- Apple has just announced they're in the PC business. Once VPC gets to > the point where Windows apps are no longer second class citizens in the Mac > world (like they are under VPC now), and run at or near full speed, Macintosh > will cease to be relevant because who would want to write a Mac app when a > Win app will do? This is the same thing that killed OS/2. Apple did not say that it would use the PC architecture. Apple probably will embed something (PROM?) in the computer such that others can not make compatible new Macs. vax, 9000 > > I'll buy a G5 before they disappear, and then find some new platform to > colonize. > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- The computer's running some sort of --- program!!! -- "Terminal", bad TV --- > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 6 22:46:20 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <000c01c56ae6$b86e35e0$7a3cd7d1@randy> References: <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy><200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org><52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222><1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050606145610.R66892@shell.lmi.net> <000c01c56ae6$b86e35e0$7a3cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <200506070352.XAA24070@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The real questions should be: > What speed does an 8 foot disk rotate at? > How big is the drive? > What is the power requirements for the spindle motor? > What is the capacity? > Were there any 8 foot hard sectored disks and how many sectors? > Were track density measured in TPI or TPF? > How much does a box of ten disks cost? > Is there an S100 interface? Well, if you run Moore's Law backwards.... (I haven't done so, these are totally off-the-cuff responses.) Spindle RPM - maybe 30? Drive size - eh. 9 by 12 by 1 (feet), maybe? Spindle motor power - maybe .5 to 1 hp? (ca. 400-750 watts) Capacity - couple dozen kilobytes? Hard sectored - had they even *invented* soft sectoring? Maybe two or four sectors per track? Density - probably near the boundary between TPI and TPF :-) Box of ten - you mean more than ten were made? S-100 - goodness no, we don' need no newfangled high-speed interfaces! /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Jun 6 22:54:33 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:54:33 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <575131af050606201637f8ee8b@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af050606201637f8ee8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/6/05, Liam Proven wrote: > On 6/7/05, O. Sharp wrote: > > > I think most of the eggs are in one basket now, and not a very reliable > > basket at that. :( Opinions? > > It's a sad day; the end of an era. Every major computer platform in > the world runs on the oldest, and arguably weakest and cruftiest, CPU > architecture there is. CISC has won. CISC deserve it. CISC has compact code size, thus higher cache hit rate. DEC will do better with faster VAX than with Alpha. vax, 9000 > > New there really is only one battle left: Unix versus Windows. Windows > 'Longhorn' versus OS X 10.5, 'Leopard'. The leftovers go to Linux, > which is Unix anyway. So much for diversity. > > -- > Liam Proven > Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com > AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com > > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 6 22:56:31 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506070340.j573ep1A021683@dewey.classiccmp.org> from Computer Collector Newsletter at "Jun 6, 5 11:41:08 pm" Message-ID: <200506070356.UAA13664@floodgap.com> > >>>> Macintosh will cease to be relevant because who would want to write a > Mac app when a Win app will do? > > Mac ceased to be relevant for exactly that reason ten years ago. Don't be disingenuous. This isn't about Mac vs. PC (which your comment is about); it's about the Mac architecture gradually losing any distinctiveness and by dint of this fact becoming just another PC architecture -- ostensibly an incompatible one at that, if Schiller's comments are to be believed. The same fate that befell SGI's transition to x86 is waiting for Apple. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Greg Morris --------------------------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 6 23:02:36 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: from 9000 VAX at "Jun 6, 5 11:52:17 pm" Message-ID: <200506070402.VAA14282@floodgap.com> > > I think by removing the last piece of "unique" out of modern Macs -- the > > PPC CPU -- Apple has just announced they're in the PC business. Once VPC > > gets to the point where Windows apps are no longer second class citizens > > in the Mac world (like they are under VPC now), and run at or near full > > speed, Macintosh will cease to be relevant because who would want to > > write a Mac app when a Win app will do? This is the same thing that > > killed OS/2. > > Apple did not say that it would use the PC architecture. Apple > probably will embed something (PROM?) in the computer such that others > can not make compatible new Macs. Irrelevant. Even if the OS were limited to run on "X-Tels," it doesn't matter. It's a hop, skip and a jump to allow Windows apps to run, unofficially with WINE and officially with VPC, under the Mac OS. With an x86 CPU, there's now no emulation penalty for doing so, and you can imagine Microsoft will leverage that. Once people discover that writing a Windows app will do just as well for *both* platforms, the need to write a Mac-specific one simply evapourates. Incidentally, one of the Apple developer documentation files states that there is no more Open Firmware in these Intel Macs. Even Apple doesn't always reinvent the wheel, so it may be nothing more than a locked-out BIOS on a bog-standard mo'bo'. That's hardly strong insurance against illegal installations off the ranch. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you're not very clever, you should be conciliatory. -- Benjamin Disraeli From news at computercollector.com Mon Jun 6 23:20:51 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 00:20:51 -0400 Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506070356.UAA13664@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200506070420.j574KP0Z022380@dewey.classiccmp.org> I'm not trying to get anyone into a X vs. Y debate. I just that any differences or advantages of a non-PC desktop architecture today pretty much ARE irrelevant. Unless, of course, someone invents something with never-before-realized, can't-live-without advantages. The last such product from Apple was the original Mac. In late 2000 or early 2001 - I forget which - I interviewed Marc Andreeseen about his latest company, Loudcloud (now Opsware). Asked him how someone could figure out the next killer app. He pointed out that new ways to achieve existing results won't cut it -- what's needed are ways to achieve new and better results. LOL, unfortunately, he followed that with a lame comment about how he didn't necessarily have those ways, but that Loudcloud could help its customers enable them. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 11:57 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... > >>>> Macintosh will cease to be relevant because who would want to > >>>> write a > Mac app when a Win app will do? > > Mac ceased to be relevant for exactly that reason ten years ago. Don't be disingenuous. This isn't about Mac vs. PC (which your comment is about); it's about the Mac architecture gradually losing any distinctiveness and by dint of this fact becoming just another PC architecture -- ostensibly an incompatible one at that, if Schiller's comments are to be believed. The same fate that befell SGI's transition to x86 is waiting for Apple. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Greg Morris --------------------------------------------------- From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 7 00:06:27 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 00:06:27 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506070318.UAA14616@floodgap.com> References: <200506070318.UAA14616@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200506070006.28017.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 06 June 2005 22:18, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > It's bad news. I've been nauseous all day. Same here. > I think by removing the last piece of "unique" out of modern Macs -- > the PPC CPU -- Apple has just announced they're in the PC business. > Once VPC gets to the point where Windows apps are no longer second > class citizens in the Mac world (like they are under VPC now), and > run at or near full speed, Macintosh will cease to be relevant > because who would want to write a Mac app when a Win app will do? > This is the same thing that killed OS/2. I liked Macs because they were an inexpensive way to get a Power(PC) box. IBM's workstations were much more expensive... > I'll buy a G5 before they disappear, and then find some new platform > to colonize. IBM's stuff is starting to come down to nearly reasonable prices... I'll suggest their OpenPower machines: http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/openpower/hardware/710express.html IBM seems to be the one remaining major vendor of "worthwhile" RISC-powered machines now, since Alpha has been getting squashed by HPaq for a while now. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From Tim at rikers.org Tue Jun 7 00:09:55 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:09:55 -0500 Subject: 8" DSDD disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A52C23.2010707@Rikers.org> Tony Duell wrote: > I thought there was an issue with the very first version of the PC DIOS > where it would only use somewhat less than 640K RAM. The IBM PC-1 was limited to 544k iirc. One of my old roommates (John Hamner) had one of these. -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 7 02:11:42 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:11:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: Allison "Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11?" (Jun 6, 22:46) References: <0IHP006P0101JP03@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <10506070811.ZM25095@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 6 2005, 22:46, Allison wrote: > Note there were differenet backplanes used in the BA23 those > that were compatable with uVAX-1, those that were uVAX-II > and the microPDP-11. Use the wrong one with the desired CPU > and bad results happen. I've never seen more than one type of backplane in a BA23, and only one is listed in my manuals: H9278-A. It's compatible with all of microPDP-11, uVAX-I and uVAX-II without so much as a jumper change. Are you thinking of something else? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 03:03:58 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 03:03:58 -0500 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: <10506070811.ZM25095@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <0IHP006P0101JP03@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <10506070811.ZM25095@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On 6/7/05, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jun 6 2005, 22:46, Allison wrote: > > > Note there were differenet backplanes used in the BA23 those > > that were compatable with uVAX-1, those that were uVAX-II > > and the microPDP-11. Use the wrong one with the desired CPU > > and bad results happen. > > I've never seen more than one type of backplane in a BA23, and only one > is listed in my manuals: H9278-A. It's compatible with all of > microPDP-11, uVAX-I and uVAX-II without so much as a jumper change. > Are you thinking of something else? Agreed... One of the MicroVAX-IIs I own was originally shipped from DEC in 1984 as a uVAX-I, then upgraded (for $17,000!) and I don't remember a backplane swap being part of the deal. Every BA-23 I have seen is Q22-CD for 3 slots, then Q22-serpentine for the remaining slots. Is there another kind? -ethan From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jun 7 05:21:03 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 06:21:03 -0400 Subject: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? Message-ID: <20050607102102.YKIJ16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 19:03 06/06/2005 -0700, you wrote: >John wrote: >> All of the Coco 1s (including some white ones) were marketed as TRS-80. > >Are you sure there were any while Coco 1s? I thought the color change >arrived with the Coco 2. Yes. I recently acquired one. It is called "Radio Shack TRS-80 64k Color Computer" It is the same size and shape as the silver CoCo1, and shipped in the same box, however it is white in color and has the larger/square/flat keys the same as the easly (TRS-80) CoCo2's. I'll get a picture up on my site for my next update. Btw, I found a page which has a good list of a number of different variations of the CoCo2. He also mentions the white CoCo1. http://users.digitalindigo.net/~techno/coco.html Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 7 06:20:02 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:20:02 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? Message-ID: <0IHP000S7OS9J5T4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? > From: Pete Turnbull > Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:11:42 +0100 (BST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Jun 6 2005, 22:46, Allison wrote: > >> Note there were differenet backplanes used in the BA23 those >> that were compatable with uVAX-1, those that were uVAX-II >> and the microPDP-11. Use the wrong one with the desired CPU >> and bad results happen. > >I've never seen more than one type of backplane in a BA23, and only one >is listed in my manuals: H9278-A. It's compatible with all of >microPDP-11, uVAX-I and uVAX-II without so much as a jumper change. > Are you thinking of something else? No, I have a few too. I have this thing for aquiring odd systems. Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 7 06:26:36 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 11:26:36 +0000 Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506070356.UAA13664@floodgap.com> References: <200506070356.UAA13664@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1118143596.26634.10.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-06 at 20:56 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The same fate that befell SGI's transition to x86 is waiting for Apple. Indeed. You'd think that Apple would have learned from others mistakes. Has there been any word from Apple employees about feelings within the company about this? cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 7 06:42:36 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 11:42:36 +0000 Subject: Nascom 2 floppy drive usefulness... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1118144556.26652.21.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-06 at 23:55 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Urgh. I can't decide whether to add a connector for a floppy disk to the > > connector panel on this Nascom 2 case that I'm building. I don't *have* > > I wouldn't bother. My Nascom doesn't have an FDC either. Yes, I think I'm leaning toward that point of view too. > > a FDC board for it anyway, plus I only have a 2-slot backplane (at the > > moment; there's room in the box for 7 or 8 boards probably). > > Let me guess, you've got a DRAM card in the other slot. How did you know? Yep, that's the setup. :) > At one point, 4118 SRAM chips, used on the main Nascom board, were very > hard to get. The machine was supplied with none of said chip (or maybe > one, used in the video circuit, I forget), but with a 16K DRAM board and > a 2 slot backplane. Yeppers. There's one 4118 on this one for video, but also a 4118 in one of the memory sockets on the CPU board. Six ROM chips on the CPU board too, plus another one on the memory board (although I notice the memory board one has a bent pin that isn't actually making contact with the socket, so I doubt that one ever did anything!) > It is possible to do a cut-n-jumper mod to put 6116s in the Nascom board, > I believe. More than likely. Or make up a carrier board that just plugs into the normal sockets. On the jumper front, it's interesting they went for a wider pin pitch than is normal - on this board the constructor has bent pins over and soldered them together which seems a bit bodgy, but I don't have any jumpers that will fit that pin pitch. I'll have to see what was done on the ones we have at Bletchley. cheers Jules From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Tue Jun 7 06:47:21 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 07:47:21 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... Message-ID: I for one am happy. I've wanted to Try OSX as a replacement for Windows but I didn't want to spend the $$$ on Apple hardware...not because it's better or worse than PC-compatible hardware but because I have a ton of current PC stuff. I've toyed with buying a Mac Mini, but it's still $500. I've dabbled with Linux but I would feel better if there was a substantial company behind it. OSX is better integrated and has a lot of right-brain features that my wife and kids would like. For $129 I'd take a flyer and commit one of my spare PCs to it. I couldn't totally divorce myself from Windows but I would at least like some options. I'm sure this is a sentiment shared by many, which, besides all of the economics behind parts sourcing for manufacturing, is a good reason for Apple to do it. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of O. Sharp Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 10:24 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Apple Goes Intel... I don't know if this is bad news or even worse news, but for those who haven't heard yet: "At its Worldwide Developer Conference today, Apple announced plans to deliver models of its Macintosh computers using Intel microprocessors by this time next year, and to transition all of its Macs to using Intel microprocessors by the end of 2007. Apple previewed a version of its critically acclaimed operating system, Mac OS X Tiger, running on an Intel-based Mac to the over 3,800 developers attending..." http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/jun/06intel.html I think most of the eggs are in one basket now, and not a very reliable basket at that. :( Opinions? -O.- From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jun 7 07:29:12 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:29:12 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A59318.9000707@atarimuseum.com> I think its rather interesting that quietly Apple was "kind enough" to release Darwin, its x86 version of the Mac OS out, I've tinkered around with it and monitor the Darwin discussions on the Apple mailing list. Now all of a sudden, its like Apple was quietly grooming its x86 OS platform, hey its always good to see another Windows competitor in the ring on the x86 platform, I'm sure IBM is not too happy, Apple's move all but ensures the death of the PowerPC chip since they were its biggest buyer. Curt O. Sharp wrote: >I don't know if this is bad news or even worse news, but for those who >haven't heard yet: > >"At its Worldwide Developer Conference today, Apple announced plans to >deliver models of its Macintosh computers using Intel microprocessors by >this time next year, and to transition all of its Macs to using Intel >microprocessors by the end of 2007. Apple previewed a version of its >critically acclaimed operating system, Mac OS X Tiger, running on an >Intel-based Mac to the over 3,800 developers attending..." > > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/jun/06intel.html > >I think most of the eggs are in one basket now, and not a very reliable >basket at that. :( Opinions? > > -O.- > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.5 - Release Date: 6/7/2005 From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jun 7 07:30:45 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:30:45 -0400 Subject: Paul Allen's new PDP-10 website In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A59375.30700@atarimuseum.com> Nice site, I wish it had more "eye candy" the gallery doesn't show as much as I'd hoped. Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >http://www.pdpplanet.com/ > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.5 - Release Date: 6/7/2005 From cheri-post at web.de Tue Jun 7 07:32:16 2005 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:32:16 +0200 Subject: Dilog DQ3256 controller issues Message-ID: <812200248@web.de> Hi all, i've been given this controller long time ago, but until now, I've never been able to find some documentation or hints how to enter into the firmware resident menu. Does anybody have any hints, how to enter it? Better would be the docuemntation, of course, but configuring the controller for some standard (E-)SMD drives would be sufficent. The controller comes with the S-Box handles for QBus-VAXen. Thanks in advance for any help. Pierre __________________________________________________________ Mit WEB.DE FreePhone mit hoechster Qualitaet ab 0 Ct./Min. weltweit telefonieren! http://freephone.web.de/?mc=021201 From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jun 7 07:34:03 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:34:03 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A5943B.7030909@atarimuseum.com> Red Hat and Mandrake have come a loooooooooooong way in desktop user friendliness, something which had been the key sore spot for Linux adoption on desktop systems, Star Office continue's to improve, but with Apple entering the x86 arena, it could be a massive wakeup call to the Linux distribution firms to really put on the polish onto their desktop offerings as OSX for x86 is more of a threat to Desktop Linux then to Windows... IMHO. Curt Cini, Richard wrote: >I for one am happy. I've wanted to Try OSX as a replacement for Windows but >I didn't want to spend the $$$ on Apple hardware...not because it's better >or worse than PC-compatible hardware but because I have a ton of current PC >stuff. I've toyed with buying a Mac Mini, but it's still $500. > >I've dabbled with Linux but I would feel better if there was a substantial >company behind it. OSX is better integrated and has a lot of right-brain >features that my wife and kids would like. > >For $129 I'd take a flyer and commit one of my spare PCs to it. I couldn't >totally divorce myself from Windows but I would at least like some options. > >I'm sure this is a sentiment shared by many, which, besides all of the >economics behind parts sourcing for manufacturing, is a good reason for >Apple to do it. > >Rich > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of O. Sharp >Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 10:24 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Apple Goes Intel... > > >I don't know if this is bad news or even worse news, but for those who >haven't heard yet: > >"At its Worldwide Developer Conference today, Apple announced plans to >deliver models of its Macintosh computers using Intel microprocessors by >this time next year, and to transition all of its Macs to using Intel >microprocessors by the end of 2007. Apple previewed a version of its >critically acclaimed operating system, Mac OS X Tiger, running on an >Intel-based Mac to the over 3,800 developers attending..." > > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/jun/06intel.html > >I think most of the eggs are in one basket now, and not a very reliable >basket at that. :( Opinions? > > -O.- > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.5 - Release Date: 6/7/2005 From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Jun 7 07:54:27 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:54:27 +1000 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <300363A4-ACEC-4421-A17B-CB43A775B73A@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 07/06/2005, at 9:47 PM, Cini, Richard wrote: > I for one am happy. I've wanted to Try OSX as a replacement for > Windows but > I didn't want to spend the $$$ on Apple hardware...not because it's > better > or worse than PC-compatible hardware but because I have a ton of > current PC > stuff. I've toyed with buying a Mac Mini, but it's still $500. > > I've dabbled with Linux but I would feel better if there was a > substantial > company behind it. OSX is better integrated and has a lot of right- > brain > features that my wife and kids would like. > > For $129 I'd take a flyer and commit one of my spare PCs to it. I > couldn't > totally divorce myself from Windows but I would at least like some > options. The problem here is that Apple have already said that you won't be able to run OS-X/Intel on anything other than Apple's Intel hardware - that is, whilst Apple will be using x86 as the CPU, the resulting hardware environment will not be Windows compatible - as far as I'm concerned this is a good thing - I don't want strange holes in my memory map above 640K for BIOS and graphics. Apple have made the difficult (but in my opinion correct) decision to phase out PowerPC and move to x86. They've done this for several reasons, including outright performance and also MIPS/W so that they can have high performance, long battery life laptops. Where Apple are going isn't new - Digital/Compaq/HP have already been here with the VAX/VMS -> Alpha/VMS -> Itanium/VMS moves as well as the Alpha/NT -> Intel/NT move as well. These decisions weren't easy to make, and certainly hurt and surprised customers as well as Compaq staff - I remember well hearing about the demise of Alpha. However (donning flameproof suit now), Alpha had no future due to the overall chip cost and Itanium at least looks (looked?) promising in terms of price/performance - CPU cost per MIP. Looking back in Computing history, lots of nice/desirable/kill for architectures/software/operating systems have died as new paradigms took over. Yes, losing something familiar hurts but in our industry, standing still is usually fatal. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 7 08:21:33 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 06:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: from "Cini, Richard" at "Jun 7, 5 07:47:21 am" Message-ID: <200506071321.GAA16714@floodgap.com> > I for one am happy. I've wanted to Try OSX as a replacement for Windows but > I didn't want to spend the $$$ on Apple hardware...not because it's better > or worse than PC-compatible hardware but because I have a ton of current PC > stuff. It won't work and you can believe Apple will do its utmost to ensure that OS "x86" only runs on Apple-blessed Intel boxes. I'm sure some clever folk will figure out a way to hoodwink OS X, but that will be the exception. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Proudly running on the Apple Network Server 500/200 ------------------------ From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 08:45:11 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:45:11 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506071321.GAA16714@floodgap.com> References: <200506071321.GAA16714@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 6/7/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I for one am happy. I've wanted to Try OSX as a replacement for Windows but > > I didn't want to spend the $$$ on Apple hardware...not because it's better > > or worse than PC-compatible hardware but because I have a ton of current PC > > stuff. > > It won't work and you can believe Apple will do its utmost to ensure that > OS "x86" only runs on Apple-blessed Intel boxes. > > I'm sure some clever folk will figure out a way to hoodwink OS X, but that > will be the exception. After reading slashdot, I agree that Apple will make Intel Mac that can triple-boot windows, OS/X and linux. Adding the fact that OS/X will not run on anybody else's PC, the Apple Intel Mac might blow Dell away. > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Proudly running on the Apple Network Server 500/200 ------------------------ > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jun 7 08:40:02 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:40:02 -0500 Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <1118143596.26634.10.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200506070356.UAA13664@floodgap.com> <1118143596.26634.10.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050607074314.0522ac48@mail> At 06:26 AM 6/7/2005, Jules Richardson wrote: >On Mon, 2005-06-06 at 20:56 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> The same fate that befell SGI's transition to x86 is waiting for Apple. > >Indeed. You'd think that Apple would have learned from others mistakes. >Has there been any word from Apple employees about feelings within the >company about this? If we're not 100% certain that history must repeat itself according to our predictions, I think we might all need to crawl out of the basement to search for food, water and other opinions. I mean, it will be light out there and there may be other people that will brush against us, but I think we can handle it. - John From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 7 08:52:06 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 06:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: from 9000 VAX at "Jun 7, 5 09:45:11 am" Message-ID: <200506071352.GAA16720@floodgap.com> > > It won't work and you can believe Apple will do its utmost to ensure that > > OS "x86" only runs on Apple-blessed Intel boxes. > > > > I'm sure some clever folk will figure out a way to hoodwink OS X, but that > > will be the exception. > > After reading slashdot, I agree that Apple will make Intel Mac that > can triple-boot windows, OS/X and linux. Adding the fact that OS/X > will not run on anybody else's PC, the Apple Intel Mac might blow Dell > away. Why on earth would Apple do that? Apple's money comes from their Mac sales, no matter what the iPod publicity implies. Do they want to chuck that by dropping into the commodity PC market? If they make a PC that can triple boot Mac, Windows and Linux, then it's an easy matter for someone else to do so, too. It's not going to happen. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Apathetic dyslexic agnostic: "I don't care if there's a dog" --------------- From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Jun 7 08:56:22 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:56:22 -0500 Subject: Dec boards- what are they? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050607084147.00bc16d8@localhost> I figured out what most of my stray DEC boards are-- DLV11 and such. These two baffle me. One might not even be a Q-Bus board like the rest. Mystery board #1: Pull-tab numbers: M7721 (Magenta) Size: Small! regular 5-3/16 inches (132mm) width, but only 5 inches deep, including the fingers, not including the pull tabs. Contents: 4 transistor, some caps, resistors, small glass diodes, 14 ICs which all look to be 7400 series TTL-- counters, flip-flops, quad-NAND, etc Terminator? For what? It's cut for Q-Bus, but it's short. Mystery board #2: Unpopulated (except for U8, the only 28 pin IC on board, a Motorola MC3242A) in other words, empty sockets. Most of the sockets are 14 or 16 pin, except for one 8-pin. 16 of the 16 pin sockets are laid out in two neat rows, which makes me think of memory. There's voltage inverter or charge-pump type chip at U20. Markings: Solder side: "Copyright 1978 by Heath Company" "85-2195" "100478" Component side: "81-2195-3" and "ADDRESS SELECTION" next to 8 jumper pads. Gotta be a Q-Bus memory card, right? [Science] Never express yourself more clearly than you think. --Neils Bohr (1885-1962) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 7 09:03:12 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:03:12 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... References: <200506070318.UAA14616@floodgap.com> <200506070006.28017.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <17061.43296.955490.696736@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Finnegan writes: Patrick> IBM seems to be the one remaining major vendor of Patrick> "worthwhile" RISC-powered machines now, since Alpha has been Patrick> getting squashed by HPaq for a while now. There are others. If you want ready-built workstations, perhaps not, but in the embedded world, MIPS and ARM are both alive and well, with substantial advantages. To name just one example of a company doing interesting stuff, check out Raza Microelectronics. paul From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 09:07:36 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:07:36 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506071352.GAA16720@floodgap.com> References: <200506071352.GAA16720@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 6/7/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > It won't work and you can believe Apple will do its utmost to ensure that > > > OS "x86" only runs on Apple-blessed Intel boxes. > > > > > > I'm sure some clever folk will figure out a way to hoodwink OS X, but that > > > will be the exception. > > > > After reading slashdot, I agree that Apple will make Intel Mac that > > can triple-boot windows, OS/X and linux. Adding the fact that OS/X > > will not run on anybody else's PC, the Apple Intel Mac might blow Dell > > away. > > Why on earth would Apple do that? Apple's money comes from their Mac sales, > no matter what the iPod publicity implies. Do they want to chuck that by > dropping into the commodity PC market? If they make a PC that can triple > boot Mac, Windows and Linux, then it's an easy matter for someone else to do > so, too. What they need to do is to add some Apple ID in the PROM and check the ID when booting OS/X. Then nobody can make a PC that can run OS/X. > > It's not going to happen. > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Apathetic dyslexic agnostic: "I don't care if there's a dog" --------------- > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 7 09:12:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 07:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compaq Portable II in UK Message-ID: Compaq Portable II available. See below. I have no further information. Please contact owner directly. Reply-to: Richard.Cole at southglos.gov.uk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:10:28 +0100 From: Richard Cole To: donate at vintage.org Subject: Compaq Portable II Are you interested in a Compaq portable 2 (sowing machine 80286 with 6" CRT green screen) Richard Cole -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Jun 7 09:27:42 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:27:42 -0400 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? - Sending mail server found on relays.ordb.org In-Reply-To: <0IHP000S7OS9J5T4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IHP000S7OS9J5T4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <42A5AEDE.2050006@compsys.to> >Allison wrote: >>>On Jun 6 2005, 22:46, Allison wrote: >> >> >>>Note there were differenet backplanes used in the BA23 those >>>that were compatable with uVAX-1, those that were uVAX-II >>>and the microPDP-11. Use the wrong one with the desired CPU >>>and bad results happen. >>> >>I've never seen more than one type of backplane in a BA23, and only one >>is listed in my manuals: H9278-A. It's compatible with all of >>microPDP-11, uVAX-I and uVAX-II without so much as a jumper change. >>Are you thinking of something else? >> >No, I have a few too. I have this thing for aquiring odd systems. > > Jerome Fine replies: As far as I understand, a 22 bit PDP-11/23 and all PDP-11/73 systems use the same memory as the uVAX-I. That would seem to indicate that the same backplane can be used for either CPU in a BA23 box. As for a uVAX-II, I can remember using the SAME box for BOTH a PDP-11/73 and a uVAX-II system at least 5 years ago. So I am NOT saying that there are no backplanes which can be used with only one of the microPDP-11, uVAX-I and uVAX-II systems, only that as far as I understand and based on my actual experience, all of the BA23 boxes that I have (and I probably still have at least a dozen) can run all three of the above CPUs. If I am correct, can Tony please verify my statement in the previous paragraph? Or anyone else as well since Allison may have additional information about special backplanes which can run only one of the three CPUs. So except for the 4 * 8 backplane from a BA23 with epoxy in the last three slots (and it can still run all three CPUs), I concur with what Tony has stated! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jun 7 09:29:33 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:29:33 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506071352.GAA16720@floodgap.com> References: <200506071352.GAA16720@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <42A5AF4D.8070907@atarimuseum.com> Apple released Darwin for with the x86 platform, its VERY rough compared to OSX, but with some commercial effort it could be a full blown commercial platform port of OSX Curt Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>It won't work and you can believe Apple will do its utmost to ensure that >>>OS "x86" only runs on Apple-blessed Intel boxes. >>> >>>I'm sure some clever folk will figure out a way to hoodwink OS X, but that >>>will be the exception. >>> >>> >>After reading slashdot, I agree that Apple will make Intel Mac that >>can triple-boot windows, OS/X and linux. Adding the fact that OS/X >>will not run on anybody else's PC, the Apple Intel Mac might blow Dell >>away. >> >> > >Why on earth would Apple do that? Apple's money comes from their Mac sales, >no matter what the iPod publicity implies. Do they want to chuck that by >dropping into the commodity PC market? If they make a PC that can triple >boot Mac, Windows and Linux, then it's an easy matter for someone else to do >so, too. > >It's not going to happen. > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.5 - Release Date: 6/7/2005 From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 7 09:30:54 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:30:54 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... References: Message-ID: <17061.44958.913587.212266@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Richard" == Richard Cini writes: Richard> I've dabbled with Linux but I would feel better if there was Richard> a substantial company behind it. ... Um, last I looked IBM was a pretty substantial company. paul From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 7 09:35:15 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:35:15 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200506070935.16067.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 07 June 2005 06:47, Cini, Richard wrote: > I've dabbled with Linux but I would feel better if there was a > substantial company behind it. You mean someone like IBM, or Novell? Oh wait... > For $129 I'd take a flyer and commit one of my spare PCs to it. I > couldn't totally divorce myself from Windows but I would at least > like some options. As others have said, Apple is unlikely to make it so that you can run it on anything but their hardware. Assuming they don't use the Pentium D/Palladium DRM crap for that, I'm sure it won't be long before it's possible to run it on anything, though. Just look at Mac-On-Linux. > I'm sure this is a sentiment shared by many, which, besides all of > the economics behind parts sourcing for manufacturing, is a good > reason for Apple to do it. There's many more reasons that this could be the death knell for Apple. For one thing, they're going to start directly competing with Dell et al for sales, which isn't such a great idea. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 7 09:38:52 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:38:52 -0400 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? - Sending mail serverfound on relays.ordb.org Message-ID: <0IHP003S8Y0RZJN1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: [SPAM] - Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? - Sending mail serverfound on relays.ordb.org > From: "Jerome H. Fine" > Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:27:42 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >Allison wrote: > >>>>On Jun 6 2005, 22:46, Allison wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Note there were differenet backplanes used in the BA23 those >>>>that were compatable with uVAX-1, those that were uVAX-II >>>>and the microPDP-11. Use the wrong one with the desired CPU >>>>and bad results happen. >>>> >>>I've never seen more than one type of backplane in a BA23, and only one >>>is listed in my manuals: H9278-A. It's compatible with all of >>>microPDP-11, uVAX-I and uVAX-II without so much as a jumper change. >>>Are you thinking of something else? >>> >>No, I have a few too. I have this thing for aquiring odd systems. >> >> >Jerome Fine replies: > >As far as I understand, a 22 bit PDP-11/23 and all >PDP-11/73 systems use the same memory as the uVAX-I. >That would seem to indicate that the same backplane >can be used for either CPU in a BA23 box. As for a >uVAX-II, I can remember using the SAME box for BOTH >a PDP-11/73 and a uVAX-II system at least 5 years ago. There were Q22 and Q18. The CD side of the indicated backplanes were notably different. It's my uderstanding the uVAX-1 had a special backplane to accomodate non-PMI memory and there were some power wiring differences that were dangerous to AB wired cards. One BA23 I got has a Q22 with all slot pairs AB/CB wired Q22 in a serpentine pattern. All three BA23s came from internal to DEC. Allison From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 7 09:39:39 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:39:39 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <17061.43296.955490.696736@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200506070318.UAA14616@floodgap.com> <200506070006.28017.pat@computer-refuge.org> <17061.43296.955490.696736@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200506070939.39262.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 07 June 2005 09:03, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Finnegan writes: > > Patrick> IBM seems to be the one remaining major vendor of > Patrick> "worthwhile" RISC-powered machines now, since Alpha has > been Patrick> getting squashed by HPaq for a while now. > > There are others. If you want ready-built workstations, perhaps not, > but in the embedded world, MIPS and ARM are both alive and well, with > substantial advantages. I said major vendor, and meant general purpose computer, not embedded stuff. Apple doesn't make PPC embedded stuff last I checked.. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 7 09:42:51 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 07:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <42A5AF4D.8070907@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at "Jun 7, 5 10:29:33 am" Message-ID: <200506071442.HAA15262@floodgap.com> > Apple released Darwin for with the x86 platform, its VERY rough compared > to OSX, but with some commercial effort it could be a full blown > commercial platform port of OSX Isn't that what they've already done? The Intel version was demoed at the Keynote. According to Jobs, there have been parallel Intel builds of OS X for at least five years. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I use my C128 because I am an ornery, stubborn, retro grouch. -- Bob Masse - From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Tue Jun 7 09:54:13 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:54:13 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... Message-ID: Yes, indeed IBM is a substantial company. But I'm not buying an IBM PC with Linux installed -- I have an installed base of Windows PCs at home. I wouldn't be buying it because I like Intel or the X86 architecture over the PPC architecture. I'm buying it because I'm tired of Windows. I, like lots of others, get my Linux distributions through downloads from Fedora, Mandrake, etc. yes, they're easier to install and configure than before, but there's something about the slickness of OSX and the support of Apple that would make me switch. I think I would be just as comfortable if I could purchase Linux from IBM for a single desktop without having to buy it preinstalled on IBM hardware. Apple's product is more polished and has lots of well-integrated featured that everyone in my family could love. Maybe I'm uninformed, which is possible because I don't follow Linux too closely. However, this is all academic if they don't make a PC-compatible version (which as previously noted != X86 version ). Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 10:31 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Apple Goes Intel... >>>>> "Richard" == Richard Cini writes: Richard> I've dabbled with Linux but I would feel better if there was Richard> a substantial company behind it. ... Um, last I looked IBM was a pretty substantial company. paul From vrs at msn.com Tue Jun 7 09:57:50 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 07:57:50 -0700 Subject: Dec boards- what are they? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050607084147.00bc16d8@localhost> Message-ID: > Pull-tab numbers: M7721 (Magenta) I think that is a "Control Logic A" card for an LA30. Vince From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 7 10:20:20 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:20:20 -0700 Subject: OT Re: Apple Goes Intel... References: <200506071404.j57E4YS2027708@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42A5BB34.4459E9BA@rain.org> My understanding is that the Pentium processor *is* a RISC processor with a CISC layer on top. Apparently Intel also offers a licensed library that allows access to the RISC capability. > IBM seems to be the one remaining major vendor of "worthwhile" > RISC-powered machines now, since Alpha has been getting squashed by > HPaq for a while now. > > Pat From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Jun 7 10:27:12 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:27:12 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... References: <17061.44958.913587.212266@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <001001c56b75$649e0370$2f3cd7d1@randy> From: "Paul Koning" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 9:30 AM >>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Cini writes: > > Richard> I've dabbled with Linux but I would feel better if there was > Richard> a substantial company behind it. ... > > Um, last I looked IBM was a pretty substantial company. > > paul I remember when IBM had commercials where the police were called to find the stolen servers and someone pointed out the new server running Linux. The newer commercials don't mention Linux but that's still what they run. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Jun 7 11:56:58 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:56:58 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... References: Message-ID: <001601c56b81$ee82f440$4b3cd7d1@randy> From: "Cini, Richard" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 9:54 AM > Yes, indeed IBM is a substantial company. But I'm not buying an IBM PC > with > Linux installed -- I have an installed base of Windows PCs at home. I > wouldn't be buying it because I like Intel or the X86 architecture over > the > PPC architecture. I'm buying it because I'm tired of Windows. > > I, like lots of others, get my Linux distributions through downloads from > Fedora, Mandrake, etc. yes, they're easier to install and configure than > before, but there's something about the slickness of OSX and the support > of > Apple that would make me switch. > > I think I would be just as comfortable if I could purchase Linux from IBM > for a single desktop without having to buy it preinstalled on IBM > hardware. > Apple's product is more polished and has lots of well-integrated featured > that everyone in my family could love. > > Maybe I'm uninformed, which is possible because I don't follow Linux too > closely. > > However, this is all academic if they don't make a PC-compatible version > (which as previously noted != X86 version ). > > Rich I agree that more competition for Micro$loth is good. The biggest problem is that Apple has been kept alive by several factors two of which are: $ from Willy boy and the simple fact they are not just another PC running Windoze. If they become just another PC will they lose a marketing base and how big a base could they lose? Randy www.s100-manuals.com From dwight.elvey at AMD.com Tue Jun 7 12:10:50 2005 From: dwight.elvey at AMD.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... Message-ID: <200506071710.KAA05897@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "9000 VAX" > >On 6/6/05, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 6/7/05, O. Sharp wrote: >> >> > I think most of the eggs are in one basket now, and not a very reliable >> > basket at that. :( Opinions? >> >> It's a sad day; the end of an era. Every major computer platform in >> the world runs on the oldest, and arguably weakest and cruftiest, CPU >> architecture there is. CISC has won. > >CISC deserve it. CISC has compact code size, thus higher cache hit >rate. DEC will do better with faster VAX than with Alpha. Hi Thanks for making this point. Intel uses a RISC machine inside as does most any other serious processor company. They can do this because once past the bus bottleneck, one can use more bus width inside for speed while using a CISC coding outside for compaction. I predict that eventually, people will realize that they should be building a uP in every RAM chip. At that point, we may see a revival of the RISC engine visible to the programmer. Lets face it, right now, it is mostly a RAM chip with a processor, it is just that they call it a processor with RAM ( cache ) and not the other way around. > >vax, 9000 > >> >> New there really is only one battle left: Unix versus Windows. Windows >> 'Longhorn' versus OS X 10.5, 'Leopard'. The leftovers go to Linux, >> which is Unix anyway. So much for diversity. Although, it is most likely good for my company in the short term, it is most likely bad for computer development in the long run :( Dwight >> >> -- >> Liam Proven >> Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com >> AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com >> >> > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 7 12:28:10 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:28:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dec boards- what are they? In-Reply-To: Tom Peters "Dec boards- what are they?" (Jun 7, 8:56) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050607084147.00bc16d8@localhost> Message-ID: <10506071828.ZM26175@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 7 2005, 8:56, Tom Peters wrote: > I figured out what most of my stray DEC boards are-- DLV11 and such. These > two baffle me. One might not even be a Q-Bus board like the rest. > > Mystery board #1: > > Pull-tab numbers: M7721 (Magenta) [ .. ] > Terminator? For what? It's cut for Q-Bus, but it's short. Boards for Omnibus, Unibus, Q-bus, etc are all built to the same basic dimensions, so you cazn't tell that way. As it happens, that board is none of the above. It's part of the internal logic of an LA30 (Decwriter). > Mystery board #2: > > Unpopulated (except for U8, the only 28 pin IC on board, a Motorola > MC3242A) in other words, empty sockets. Most of the sockets are 14 or 16 > pin, except for one 8-pin. 16 of the 16 pin sockets are laid out in two > neat rows, which makes me think of memory. There's voltage inverter or > charge-pump type chip at U20. > Markings: Solder side: "Copyright 1978 by Heath Company" "85-2195" "100478" > Component side: "81-2195-3" and "ADDRESS SELECTION" next to 8 jumper pads. > Gotta be a Q-Bus memory card, right? Yes it is. It's for an H-11 system. That MC3242A is a refresh counter and address multioplexer for 4116 DRAMs. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 7 13:01:27 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:01:27 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... References: <001601c56b81$ee82f440$4b3cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <004401c56b8a$ed0517c0$af781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy McLaughlin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 12:56 PM Subject: Re: Apple Goes Intel... > From: "Cini, Richard" > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 9:54 AM > > > > Yes, indeed IBM is a substantial company. But I'm not buying an IBM PC > > with > > Linux installed -- I have an installed base of Windows PCs at home. I > > wouldn't be buying it because I like Intel or the X86 architecture over > > the > > PPC architecture. I'm buying it because I'm tired of Windows. > > > > I, like lots of others, get my Linux distributions through downloads from > > Fedora, Mandrake, etc. yes, they're easier to install and configure than > > before, but there's something about the slickness of OSX and the support > > of > > Apple that would make me switch. > > > > I think I would be just as comfortable if I could purchase Linux from IBM > > for a single desktop without having to buy it preinstalled on IBM > > hardware. > > Apple's product is more polished and has lots of well-integrated featured > > that everyone in my family could love. > > > > Maybe I'm uninformed, which is possible because I don't follow Linux too > > closely. > > > > However, this is all academic if they don't make a PC-compatible version > > (which as previously noted != X86 version ). > > > > Rich > > > I agree that more competition for Micro$loth is good. > > The biggest problem is that Apple has been kept alive by several factors two > of which are: $ from Willy boy and the simple fact they are not just > another PC running Windoze. > > > If they become just another PC will they lose a marketing base and how big a > base could they lose? > > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com > The only change a user would see when upgrading his G5 to an x86 Powermac in a few years is a speed increase, nothing more. People used to buy Macs in the 68k era because they were the best desktop you can buy (multiple monitors, PnP that worked, high memory ceiling, SCSI, etc) and the GUI was decent. During the early PPC era the machines only had the processor going for them (very decent FPU) picking up standard x86 features (PCI, USB, IDE, etc). Today the only thing going for Apple is OSX (tightly written to the hardware), and that is not going to change. People who don't like piecing their machines together and going through driver hell will stick to the Mac no matter what was under the hood. Lately a Mac is for people who hate Microsoft and don't like messing with Linux installs. From allain at panix.com Tue Jun 7 13:09:53 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:09:53 -0400 Subject: Dec boards- what are they? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050607084147.00bc16d8@localhost> <10506071828.ZM26175@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <000b01c56b8c$1b10b380$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Boards for Omnibus, Unibus, Q-bus, etc are all built to the > same basic dimensions, so you cazn't tell that way. In general, a way in which you Can tell would be useful for many of us DECies. Uni-vs-Q and Q22-vs-18 are the two important ones for me. John A. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 13:28:54 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:28:54 -0500 Subject: Dec boards- what are they? In-Reply-To: <000b01c56b8c$1b10b380$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050607084147.00bc16d8@localhost> <10506071828.ZM26175@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <000b01c56b8c$1b10b380$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On 6/7/05, John Allain wrote: > > Boards for Omnibus, Unibus, Q-bus, etc are all built to the > > same basic dimensions, so you cazn't tell that way. > > In general, a way in which you Can tell would be useful for > many of us DECies. Uni-vs-Q and Q22-vs-18 are the two > important ones for me. The most definite way is by looking up the handle number in a DEC handbook or (trustworthy) field guide on the 'net. By deduction, if it's a dual-height card, extended length (i.e., not approximately square), there's a good chance it's Qbus. All PDP-8 OMNIBUS cards are quad height, extended length. Unibus SPC (Small Peripheral Controllers) are either quad-height or hex height, extended length. Some older Unibus controller parts (from the backplane-per-peripheral era) are the exact same size as dual-height Qbus cards, so mere silhouette is _not_ definitive. If you see bus interface chips like DC005 and DC010, _that_ is Qbus. If you see DC013s, that's Unibus. If you see 74LS240s, it's probably Qbus. Beyond that, things start to get muddy (ISTR the National 8641 can sit on either bus, but we used to use it on our Unibus boards). There's a whole stable of bus interface chips that DEC used, some proprietary, some available over the counter (the 7438, for example). Determining which ones are in use is somewhat helpful, but not an absolute guarantee. The area around the interrups grant lines is different between Qbus and Unibus (and nothing even close to similar for OMNIBUS), so if you happen to have memorized what a Qbus and Unibus grant card look like, you can map that picture over the card you are looking at and differentiate one from another. One thing one learns from experience is how they are supposed to look. A quad OMNIBUS card has a very different component density than, say, a quad Qbus card. A hex OMNIBUS card might resemble, superficially, a hex Unibus card, but the OMNIBUS card will lack the BR-level selector (small board or dip-resistor-pack-looking-part) of the Unibus card. Also, the positions of the I/O connectors can be different (there's room to exit signals at the fingers on one end of an OMNIBUS card, and that's never possible on a PDP-11; plus even hex-height OMNIBUS cards don't use the sixth card edge finger - there's never any backplane socket there, so there's no connections - that's a dead giveaway). Keep in mind, though, that these visual cues may or may not positively identify a board as to its bus type, but certain characteristics are more telling than others. It was never meant to be particularly easy or hard to tell one set of boards from another - the DEC guys always had the right docs to tell them apart, plus they were familiar with the numbering scheme. If someone handed me an M7xxx board, I would think Unibus long before I thought OMNIBUS. Conversely, an M83xx board would make me look for OMNIBUS characteristics, but, again, that's only a guideline. As for Q22 vs Q18, besides the dates on the chips, one can whip out the Qbus spec and look for connections to the extra 2 address lines at the edge fingers. A no-connect pretty much guarantees that it's Q18. Qbus vs Unibus is trickier. Besides the location of the grant pins, and the BR selector, I can't think of any positively defining characteristic except the handle number or perhaps the presence/absense of a 'V' in the name of the peripheral, should it happen to be legible in copper at one edge of the board (DPV11, RLV12...) For that matter PDP-8 boards will have an 8 rather than an 11, but I doubt all options are clearly labelled. Hope this helps rather than confuses, -ethan From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Jun 7 13:29:19 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:29:19 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... References: <001601c56b81$ee82f440$4b3cd7d1@randy> <004401c56b8a$ed0517c0$af781941@game> Message-ID: <000e01c56b8e$d572dd50$413cd7d1@randy> From: "Teo Zenios" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 1:01 PM > From: "Randy McLaughlin" > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 12:56 PM > >> >> I agree that more competition for Micro$loth is good. >> >> The biggest problem is that Apple has been kept alive by several factors > two >> of which are: $ from Willy boy and the simple fact they are not just >> another PC running Windoze. >> >> >> If they become just another PC will they lose a marketing base and how >> big > a >> base could they lose? >> >> >> Randy >> www.s100-manuals.com >> > > > The only change a user would see when upgrading his G5 to an x86 Powermac > in > a few years is a speed increase, nothing more. People used to buy Macs in > the 68k era because they were the best desktop you can buy (multiple > monitors, PnP that worked, high memory ceiling, SCSI, etc) and the GUI > was > decent. During the early PPC era the machines only had the processor going > for them (very decent FPU) picking up standard x86 features (PCI, USB, > IDE, > etc). Today the only thing going for Apple is OSX (tightly written to the > hardware), and that is not going to change. People who don't like piecing > their machines together and going through driver hell will stick to the > Mac > no matter what was under the hood. Lately a Mac is for people who hate > Microsoft and don't like messing with Linux installs. The point is once you have another X86 computer you will see pressure to use the same software and pressure to use the same hardware. A huge portion of the user base will want everything right now for no $. This pressure that can be expected may lead (probably will lead) to a homogenous PC environment. Even if Apple tries to tie their software to their hardware how long will it be before someone starts selling an emulated system on other systems. From there will Apple watch people go that route or will they decide to directly compete. By being able to take a cheap PC clone and running Apple software or emulated software on it that will put even more pressure to bring down the cost of Apple hardware. With cheaper hardware and software what financial problems can that create for Apple? How long will Willy boy wait to sell XP on the new MAC's, if not Willy then someone will. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 7 13:30:11 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:30:11 -0400 Subject: Dec boards- what are they? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050607084147.00bc16d8@localhost> <10506071828.ZM26175@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <000b01c56b8c$1b10b380$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <17061.59315.78620.490370@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Allain writes: >> Boards for Omnibus, Unibus, Q-bus, etc are all built to the same >> basic dimensions, so you cazn't tell that way. John> In general, a way in which you Can tell would be useful for John> many of us DECies. Uni-vs-Q and Q22-vs-18 are the two John> important ones for me. You have to find the product name that goes with the board. Apart from the obvious "if it's hex it must be Unibus" there isn't a surefire way to tell things apart. Some heuristics may work: single height boards show up in old Unibus options (e.g., M105). If a dual height board is densely packed with stuff, it's probably QBus, since dual height Unibus related modules are also early modules and will have loosely packed small TTL parts on them. paul From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 13:46:02 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:46:02 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <000e01c56b8e$d572dd50$413cd7d1@randy> References: <001601c56b81$ee82f440$4b3cd7d1@randy> <004401c56b8a$ed0517c0$af781941@game> <000e01c56b8e$d572dd50$413cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: On 6/7/05, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Teo Zenios" > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 1:01 PM > > > > From: "Randy McLaughlin" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 12:56 PM > > > > >> > >> I agree that more competition for Micro$loth is good. > >> > >> The biggest problem is that Apple has been kept alive by several factors > > two > >> of which are: $ from Willy boy and the simple fact they are not just > >> another PC running Windoze. > >> > >> > >> If they become just another PC will they lose a marketing base and how > >> big > > a > >> base could they lose? > >> > >> > >> Randy > >> www.s100-manuals.com > >> > > > > > > The only change a user would see when upgrading his G5 to an x86 Powermac > > in > > a few years is a speed increase, nothing more. People used to buy Macs in > > the 68k era because they were the best desktop you can buy (multiple > > monitors, PnP that worked, high memory ceiling, SCSI, etc) and the GUI > > was > > decent. During the early PPC era the machines only had the processor going > > for them (very decent FPU) picking up standard x86 features (PCI, USB, > > IDE, > > etc). Today the only thing going for Apple is OSX (tightly written to the > > hardware), and that is not going to change. People who don't like piecing > > their machines together and going through driver hell will stick to the > > Mac > > no matter what was under the hood. Lately a Mac is for people who hate > > Microsoft and don't like messing with Linux installs. > > The point is once you have another X86 computer you will see pressure to use > the same software and pressure to use the same hardware. A huge portion of > the user base will want everything right now for no $. > > This pressure that can be expected may lead (probably will lead) to a > homogenous PC environment. > > Even if Apple tries to tie their software to their hardware how long will it > be before someone starts selling an emulated system on other systems. From > there will Apple watch people go that route or will they decide to directly > compete. By being able to take a cheap PC clone and running Apple software > or emulated software on it that will put even more pressure to bring down > the cost of Apple hardware. With cheaper hardware and software what > financial problems can that create for Apple? Apple only needs to make Intel Mac that can run Windows, linux, and OS/X, and to make sure that other's PC can not run OS/X. This is not difficuilt, with the help from lawyers and an embedded Apple ID. Then many people might be willing to pay $100 more to buy a MAC that can run everything, other than to buy a Dell that can not run OS/X. Apple will gain a lot of PC market share from Dell. > > How long will Willy boy wait to sell XP on the new MAC's, if not Willy then > someone will. > > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 13:49:16 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:49:16 -0500 Subject: Dec boards- what are they? In-Reply-To: <17061.59315.78620.490370@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050607084147.00bc16d8@localhost> <10506071828.ZM26175@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <000b01c56b8c$1b10b380$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <17061.59315.78620.490370@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 6/7/05, Paul Koning wrote: > You have to find the product name that goes with the board. That's the only way to be sure. > Apart from the obvious "if it's hex it must be Unibus" there isn't a > surefire way to tell things apart. Except that it _might_ be from a PDP-11 memory bus, _not_ Unibus (like the DRAM cards fo r the 11/70, 11/725, 11/730, 11/750...) or part of a peripheral (RK611) or OMNIBUS (compare the visual appearance of, say, a DZ-11 and an RL8A - they _are_ different, in distinguishable ways, but a novice might throw them on the same pile). About the only thing that is true is that "single or hex must not be Qbus". Everything else is up for grabs. > Some heuristics may work: single height boards show up in old Unibus > options (e.g., M105). If a dual height board is densely packed with > stuff, it's probably QBus, since dual height Unibus related modules > are also early modules and will have loosely packed small TTL parts on > them. That is a good technique for a first-order approximation. Sometimes, that's as far as you have to go. -ethan From tomj at wps.com Tue Jun 7 13:51:19 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nascom 2 floppy drive usefulness... In-Reply-To: <1118077594.24778.52.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1118077594.24778.52.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050607115005.X1188@localhost> On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Someone think for me :) > What's the maximum cable length for a floppy drive anyway? My old CP/M-80 box has a 50-pin ribbon cable, with a T&B style crimped connector in the middle, it's got to be 8 feet long. It's crazy. The things we do as yooths. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jun 7 14:10:40 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:10:40 -0400 Subject: kdj11-a in an 18 bit backplane? Message-ID: <200506071910.j57JAe2R027403@mwave.heeltoe.com> as long as we're talking about rt-11 :-) Can I put a KDJ11-A (M8192-YB) in an 18 bit backplane? I have a mini backplane (8 slots) but I'm sure it's not 22 bit. I was curious if I could put it that backplane with some memory for a quick test... (I suspect the answer is no, but I thought i'd ask) -brad From Tim at rikers.org Tue Jun 7 14:17:13 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:17:13 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: <200506071352.GAA16720@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <42A5F2B9.1020403@Rikers.org> 9000 VAX wrote: > What they need to do is to add some Apple ID in the PROM and check the > ID when booting OS/X. Then nobody can make a PC that can run OS/X. Perhaps the text "APPLE ][" at a known offset in rom? ;-) -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Jun 7 14:23:49 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:23:49 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... References: <001601c56b81$ee82f440$4b3cd7d1@randy><004401c56b8a$ed0517c0$af781941@game><000e01c56b8e$d572dd50$413cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <002001c56b96$72795d70$963dd7d1@randy> From: "9000 VAX" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 1:46 PM > Apple only needs to make Intel Mac that can run Windows, linux, and > OS/X, and to make sure that other's PC can not run OS/X. This is not > difficuilt, with the help from lawyers and an embedded Apple ID. Then > many people might be willing to pay $100 more to buy a MAC that can > run everything, other than to buy a Dell that can not run OS/X. Apple > will gain a lot of PC market share from Dell. I don't believe that Apple will start with the ability to run XP. To start with the ability to run XP opens up a can of worms trying to give support in too many directions. I don't believe that any lawyer can prevent someone from writing an OS/X emulator (or whatever OS the new MAC uses). I don't believe that Apple can survive trying to compete with every PC clone out there. In the long run Apple will directly run Win apps (through wine or through direct sells of XP). In the long run MAC apps will run on cheap PC clones. If Micro$loth and or Apple try to stop it I can foresee many lawsuits. I am not sure is this is a good thing or not (probably both in ways we don't know). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Jun 7 14:25:56 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:25:56 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... References: <200506071352.GAA16720@floodgap.com> <42A5F2B9.1020403@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <002901c56b96$bdde8330$963dd7d1@randy> From: "Tim Riker" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 2:17 PM > 9000 VAX wrote: >> What they need to do is to add some Apple ID in the PROM and check the >> ID when booting OS/X. Then nobody can make a PC that can run OS/X. > > Perhaps the text "APPLE ][" at a known offset in rom? ;-) > > -- > Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org > Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ > BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! More likely they'll use the text "Bend over and smile". Randy www.s100-manuals.com From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jun 7 14:28:06 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:28:06 -0400 Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:20:51 EDT." <200506070420.j574KP0Z022380@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200506071928.j57JS6Og032491@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Computer Collector Newsletter" wrote: > >In late 2000 or early 2001 - I forget which - I interviewed Marc Andreeseen >about his latest company, Loudcloud (now Opsware). Asked him how someone >could figure out the next killer app. He pointed out that new ways to >achieve existing results won't cut it -- what's needed are ways to achieve >new and better results. off topic and Marc Andreeseen doesn't know his ass from his elbow. -brad From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Jun 7 14:30:40 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:30:40 -0400 Subject: kdj11-a in an 18 bit backplane? In-Reply-To: <200506071910.j57JAe2R027403@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200506071910.j57JAe2R027403@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <0ca12250324c1a37da0f379973627c6b@xlisper.mv.com> No, you can't put it in an 18 bit backplane. In fact, it's a totally useless board. Send it to me and I'll take it off your hands. :-) On Jun 7, 2005, at 3:10 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > > as long as we're talking about rt-11 :-) > > Can I put a KDJ11-A (M8192-YB) in an 18 bit backplane? > > I have a mini backplane (8 slots) but I'm sure it's not 22 bit. I was > curious if I could put it that backplane with some memory for a quick > test... (I suspect the answer is no, but I thought i'd ask) > > -brad > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 7 14:48:49 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:48:49 -0400 Subject: kdj11-a in an 18 bit backplane? Message-ID: <0IHQ00933CD9LPGB@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: kdj11-a in an 18 bit backplane? > From: Brad Parker > Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:10:40 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >as long as we're talking about rt-11 :-) > >Can I put a KDJ11-A (M8192-YB) in an 18 bit backplane? > >I have a mini backplane (8 slots) but I'm sure it's not 22 bit. I was >curious if I could put it that backplane with some memory for a quick >test... (I suspect the answer is no, but I thought i'd ask) > >-brad No good reason not to. The only caveat is that your limited to 256k of memory. Me I just add the wires to the buss for Q22. Allison From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jun 7 14:56:10 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:56:10 -0500 Subject: Catweasel Questions Message-ID: <42A5FBDA.6030908@mdrconsult.com> I have a Catweasel MK1 (ISA) with a 360KB 5.25" drive attached. I'm looking at the docs and they mention reading Commodore 1541/1571 floppies. I have some 1541 floppies I'd like to archive, notably the INCA C128 CP/M distribution and a 1541 alignment disk. Has anybody used a PC Catweasel in DOS to read Commodore disks in an unmodified DSDD drive? Longterm I'd rather use the XE1541 cables and software, but I don't have time to make the cable right now. The Catweasel route would simplify things a lot. Doc From cmurray at eagle.ca Tue Jun 7 16:04:26 2005 From: cmurray at eagle.ca (Cmurray) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:04:26 -0500 Subject: Apple goes Intel...and the future! Message-ID: <200506072004.j57K4QRF040591@inferno.eagle.ca> Apple sees the writing on the proverbial wall I'm afraid to say. So sad. Longhorn + 64 bits and dual processing are coming. Linux is second. Where does Apple fit in? Does this also mean innovation is dead? Hardly. To be different today in a multi-billion dollar industry or almost trillion dollar one that microcomputers are is a price Apple seems unwilling to pay or more accurately its shareholders.More to the point is Apple better? Is the cost premium worth it? What about the developing world and its thirst for inexpensive computers? I do not believe Apple was willing to lose out on the future. Murray-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:23:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "O. Sharp" Subject: Apple Goes Intel... To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I don't know if this is bad news or even worse news, but for those who haven't heard yet: "At its Worldwide Developer Conference today, Apple announced plans to deliver models of its Macintosh computers using Intel microprocessors by this time next year, and to transition all of its Macs to using Intel microprocessors by the end of 2007. Apple previewed a version of its critically acclaimed operating system, Mac OS X Tiger, running on an Intel-based Mac to the over 3,800 developers attending..." http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/jun/06intel.html I think most of the eggs are in one basket now, and not a very reliable basket at that. :( Opinions? -O.- ------------------------------ From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jun 7 15:13:50 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:13:50 -0400 Subject: Catweasel Questions In-Reply-To: <42A5FBDA.6030908@mdrconsult.com> References: <42A5FBDA.6030908@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <42A5FFFE.7040507@atarimuseum.com> I've read them on a 360K and a 1.2MB drive before with the ISA CW with supplied S/W They were standard JiffyDOS disks. Curt Doc Shipley wrote: > I have a Catweasel MK1 (ISA) with a 360KB 5.25" drive attached. I'm > looking at the docs and they mention reading Commodore 1541/1571 > floppies. I have some 1541 floppies I'd like to archive, notably the > INCA C128 CP/M distribution and a 1541 alignment disk. > > Has anybody used a PC Catweasel in DOS to read Commodore disks in an > unmodified DSDD drive? > > Longterm I'd rather use the XE1541 cables and software, but I don't > have time to make the cable right now. The Catweasel route would > simplify things a lot. > > > Doc > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.5 - Release Date: 6/7/2005 From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 7 15:30:34 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:30:34 +0100 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: <0IHO00CSVX1EJGE2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <001801c56b9f$c355cf40$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Allison wrote: > Don't know of one on line. I have the set "LSI-11 Systems > Service Manuals" as my reference. As an aside, I have scanned this 3 volume set. I'll get around to tidying it up and uploading it somewhere later on this weel. Probably :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 7 15:34:52 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:34:52 +0100 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001901c56ba0$5d1d7c40$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Ethan Dicks wrote: > willing to crack the case - not a problem with something this > old - one can flip-flop a VS2000 to a MV2000 and back). With > the KA630 design (MicroVAX-II), there was no way to enforce a > marketing/licensing scheme except by limiting expansion the > hard way. They _could_ have fiddled with the console EPROM. That's what they di later on with the MicroVAX 3100 vs the VAXserver 3100 etc. Easier to reverse than glue in the backplane, but harder to reverse than flicking a jumper! I have no idea who thought up the glue trick, but I can only hope they got what they deserved! (Hopefully the genius who suggested slipping NOPs into the VAX 8500 microcode soon followed the same path!) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Tue Jun 7 16:27:06 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:27:06 +0200 Subject: Whats this Correx thingie ? Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050607232538.027ff298@pop.xs4all.nl> Does anybody know what this is : http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/Dscf0009.jpg ? It says Correx, Swiss Made and Centi Newton, Gramm Pound Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 7 16:35:38 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:35:38 -0400 Subject: Whats this Correx thingie ? References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050607232538.027ff298@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <17062.4906.663748.164952@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Stefan" == Stefan writes: Stefan> Does anybody know what this is : Stefan> http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/Dscf0009.jpg ? Stefan> It says Correx, Swiss Made and Centi Newton, Gramm Pound Looks like a force gauge. Push against the tip (sideways, either direction) and it tells you how hard you're pushing. paul From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Jun 7 16:39:33 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:39:33 +0100 Subject: Whats this Correx thingie ? References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050607232538.027ff298@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <00f201c56ba9$6538e640$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Stefan" > Does anybody know what this is : > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/Dscf0009.jpg ? > # It's a tension gauge, used for setting spring and belt tensions in delicate equipment. We use similar ones for setting belt tensions on the Racal ICR64 recorders we have at work. I have seen them used for setting relay contact pressures as well (though we have a cruder device, developed by the British Post Office for that). Jim. From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Jun 7 16:45:03 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:45:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Whats this Correx thingie ? In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20050607232538.027ff298@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050607232538.027ff298@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <24536.62.177.191.201.1118180703.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Looks like a micrometer to me. Ed > Does anybody know what this is : > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/Dscf0009.jpg ? > > It says Correx, Swiss Made and Centi Newton, Gramm Pound > > Stefan. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > > From Tim at rikers.org Tue Jun 7 16:45:43 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:45:43 -0500 Subject: Whats this Correx thingie ? In-Reply-To: <17062.4906.663748.164952@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050607232538.027ff298@pop.xs4all.nl> <17062.4906.663748.164952@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42A61587.8050504@Rikers.org> http://www.longislandindicator.com/correx.html -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Jun 7 16:52:22 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:52:22 -0400 Subject: kdj11-a in an 18 bit backplane? In-Reply-To: <200506071910.j57JAe2R027403@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200506071910.j57JAe2R027403@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <42A61716.40801@compsys.to> Brad Parker wrote: >as long as we're talking about rt-11 :-) >Can I put a KDJ11-A (M8192-YB) in an 18 bit backplane? >I have a mini backplane (8 slots) but I'm sure it's not 22 bit. I was >curious if I could put it that backplane with some memory for a quick >test... (I suspect the answer is no, but I thought i'd ask) > > Jerome Fine replies: Since I have substituted an M8190-YB (KDJ11-BB) for a Quad PDP-11/23 board, I know it can be done. As for the M8192-YB (KDJ11-AB), it will probably work, but do NOT expect to be able to boot RT-11 as before since the PDP-11/23 CPU boot ROMs for the M8186 CPU have code which crashes a PDP-11/73. If my assumption that the original system uses the M8186 is incorrect, then you need to supply additional information. If you are willing to use ODT to enter a boot program, then you should be able to boot RT-11 as before. If your information about having an 18 bit backplane is correct, then you are probably not going to damage the M8192. But if you actually have only a 16 bit backplane which runs an LSI/11 CPU, there may be extra signals where the extra 6 address lines are located. In that case, it is likely that you may damage the M8186. Tony, can you help this fellow in that regard? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 7 17:43:14 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:43:14 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <004401c56b8a$ed0517c0$af781941@game> References: <001601c56b81$ee82f440$4b3cd7d1@randy> <004401c56b8a$ed0517c0$af781941@game> Message-ID: <200506071743.14683.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 07 June 2005 13:01, Teo Zenios wrote: > Today the only thing going for Apple is OSX (tightly written to the > hardware), and that is not going to change. People who don't like > piecing their machines together and going through driver hell will > stick to the Mac no matter what was under the hood. Lately a Mac is > for people who hate Microsoft and don't like messing with Linux > installs. I disagree: finnegpt at excalibur:~$ uname -snrmo ; grep machine /proc/cpuinfo Linux excalibur 2.6.11.7 ppc64 GNU/Linux machine : PowerMac7,3 I'm not necessarily a "typical" apple customer, but definitely not the only one that likes to run Linux on their hardware. If you don't believe me, look here: http://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/ Oh, and there's some "Linus Torvalds" guy that is said to have a G5 as his main workstation; I'm pretty sure it doesn't run MacOS. IMO MacOS is ok (though I have taken to being an Free/OSS software snob), but the only reason I buy Apple is for their hardware. Linux + Power(PC) == goodness. Also, I know plenty of people that either use both Linux and MacOS. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 7 18:45:42 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Coco variations (was: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? In-Reply-To: <20050607102102.YKIJ16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050607102102.YKIJ16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20050607163911.E99645@shell.lmi.net> IIRC, Tandy also made a "Vidoetext" terminal that was in a white version of the Coco 1 case. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 7 19:09:49 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:09:49 -0400 Subject: Coco variations (was: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? In-Reply-To: <20050607163911.E99645@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050607102102.YKIJ16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050607102102.YKIJ16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050607200829.05133b88@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: >IIRC, Tandy also made a "Vidoetext" terminal that was in a white version >of the Coco 1 case. Not necessarily -- the one I saw at Dayton was in a silver case w/chicklet keys... However, it was 1) pretty beat up, and 2) too expensive, so I didn't pick it up. Ah well... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 7 19:24:13 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506071743.14683.pat@computer-refuge.org> from Patrick Finnegan at "Jun 7, 5 05:43:14 pm" Message-ID: <200506080024.RAA13430@floodgap.com> > Also, I know plenty of people that either use both Linux and MacOS. Or NetBSD. Besides my two OS X systems, I have a IIci and Q605 running NetBSD/mac68k, and a 7300+G3/500 running NetBSD/macppc. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Microsoft Windows is the IBM 3270 of the 21st century. --------------------- From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Jun 7 19:37:27 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:37:27 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? In-Reply-To: <0IHP003S8Y0RZJN1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IHP003S8Y0RZJN1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <42A63DC7.6060001@compsys.to> >Allison wrote: >>Jerome Fine replies: >> >>As far as I understand, a 22 bit PDP-11/23 and all >>PDP-11/73 systems use the same memory as the uVAX-I. >>That would seem to indicate that the same backplane >>can be used for either CPU in a BA23 box. As for a >>uVAX-II, I can remember using the SAME box for BOTH >>a PDP-11/73 and a uVAX-II system at least 5 years ago. >> >> > >There were Q22 and Q18. > >The CD side of the indicated backplanes were notably different. >It's my uderstanding the uVAX-1 had a special backplane to >accomodate non-PMI memory and there were some power wiring >differences that were dangerous to AB wired cards. > >One BA23 I got has a Q22 with all slot pairs AB/CB wired Q22 >in a serpentine pattern. > >All three BA23s came from internal to DEC. > Jerome Fine replies: That would explain the situation since no one else seems to have ever seen a pure Q22 backplane for a BA23. Since I can use a BA23 box with a PDP-11/73 with BOTH normal memory below the CPU and PMI memory above the CPU (actually, it can even be the same memory), the uVAX-I should also be able to do so as well. However, for a pure Q22 backplane will all slots wired AB /AB (I presume that is what you really meant to write), PMI memory would not be possible for the PDP-11/83. I presume that would also preclude a uVAX-II which I assume also needs AB / CD slots as well. On the other hand, if all the slots were wired as AB / CD as in an BA213 box (is BA213 correct - that would be for a uVAX-III) which has only AB / CD, the PDP-11/73 should also work along with the PDP-11/83 although I have never hear of anyone using these boxes for PDP-11 CPUs since they require different boards which likely are not available to be used with the PDP-11 in most cases. Tony, do you have a UVAX-III box or can anyone else comment? Note that a BA11-S box is a 22 bit 4 * 9 backplane and wired AB / CD for all 9 Qbus slots. One of these years I will try using a PDP-11/83 and PMI memory to test the situation. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 20:01:16 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 02:01:16 +0100 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <42A59318.9000707@atarimuseum.com> References: <42A59318.9000707@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 6/7/05, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Apple's move all but ensures the death of the PowerPC chip since they were its > biggest buyer. I suspect the above could well not happen, for the following two reasons: * Microsoft Xbox 360 * Sony Playstation 3 Both of these use (several per each) PowerPC variants as their CPU. Ed. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 7 20:01:38 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-11 chassis (was Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11?) In-Reply-To: <5ca5ce9ea81b05307ba5fbea2d7d49b9@xlisper.mv.com> References: <0IHO00K8QCYFG4Y0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <5ca5ce9ea81b05307ba5fbea2d7d49b9@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <62267.207.145.53.202.1118192498.squirrel@207.145.53.202> David wrote: > Is there a description somewhere of all of the BA11-?? variants? It > seems that there are many of them and they are of various sizes and Some information I've collected on them: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/pdp11/chassis.html Corrections and additions welcome. Eric From technobug at comcast.net Tue Jun 7 20:06:54 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:06:54 -0700 Subject: Rescued Items Redux In-Reply-To: <200506041700.j54H0237084093@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506041700.j54H0237084093@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Stopped by my favorite liquidator to go over a new load of goodies that they just got in. While waiting for a new load to be dropped off I spent some time going through the board bin and found the following: 21867200 Real Time Display Model 13414 21291200 Control Assy 2129130 21986100G 4 Ch Digitizer Assy 2198620 21887200 Address Card Assy 2188730 21295000 C Diagnostic Assy Assy 212951 21283000 ALU Assy 2128310 21243700 Input Processor Assy 2124380 21389500 Arithmetic Processor Model 13403 21154700U SA/SD DDR1 Assy 2115450 21979500E SA/SD DDR2 Assy 2197960 21076900N Local Memory Assy 2107700 22015500 I/O Assy 2201560 DR11-B MDB Systems All look like DEC Unibus boards: they have the DEC metal spine, but without the model/module number that I'm used to nor do they have the DEC logo on the board. However, they do have the DEC quality. Does anyone have any idea what they are for and is there any interest in them. If so, I'll get the folks to put them on Vintage Computer Marketplace. I've also dug up a bunch of what appears to be PDP11 type stuff: M7651 DRV11-WA Bootstrap 27513A - Universal MM-4500C Memory Micro Memory, Inc. 30032800 ?? GTSC 703185 Plessey Peripheral Sys. 705035 Plessey 61407787 DQ614 S DILOG disk controller M8186 KDF11 18012 Marked 11/03 - Universal 27171A ECCC Run/Halt control - Univeral They will be posted to VCM. Also found myself a quad TMS320C40 DSP PCI card - YEH!! CRC From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jun 7 20:11:00 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:11:00 -0400 Subject: Coco variations (was: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? Message-ID: <20050608011059.MOOS16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: >>IIRC, Tandy also made a "Vidoetext" terminal that was in a white version >>of the Coco 1 case. > >Not necessarily -- the one I saw at Dayton was in a silver case w/chicklet >keys... I found it in the 1983 Standard catalog, and the 1984 Radio Shack "Computers" Catalog - the Videotex Terminal shown in the Catalogs is the silver CoCo case with the chicklet keys. It does not appear in the 1984 standard Catalog. I also have a correction to make, the white 64K CoCo (1) DOES appear in both the standard 1984 Catalog and the 1984 "TRS-80 Computers" catalog - it is the last CoCo shown, AFTER the CoCo2, and the photo is at such a perspective that it is not obvious that the case is deeper - however the vent. holes are different on the CoCo1 (along the sides at the top) and the CoCo2 (across the top), and once I looked closer, I realized this is actally the white CoCo1 - Although the text mentions "Color Computer 2 disk system and other peripherals", the machine is actually called "54K Color Computer" - NOT "Color Computer 2" as is indicated in the previous pages depicting the CoCo2. It is also more expensive that the CoCo2's shown $599 .vs. $349 and $459 (Canadian prices) - presumably because it has 64K of RAM and includes the Extended BASIC - for all these reasons, I just assumed it was the top end CoCo2 - but it's actually the "white CoCo1". A 64K RAM option was not offered in the 1983 Catalog (Silver machines), but a 64K upgrade for "existing 4k, 16k or 32k Color Computers" was offered in the 1984. The only CoCo1 offered in 1984 is the white 64k machine. Regards, Dave Now... if I could just find a MC-10 "Micro Color Computer"... -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 7 20:20:44 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: References: <000501c56af7$0622d6a0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <64141.207.145.53.202.1118193644.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Ethan wrote: > I love the bit about trying to spin it at 30,000 RPM... long before it > hits that speed, relativistic effects will kick in. Nope. 30,000 RPM would result in the outer rim moving at 51,472 m/s, which is only 0.00017c, nowhere near relativistic. But the floppy disk is likely to break up at a little over 200 RPM, unless is is being tested in an evacuated chamber. Eric From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 7 20:24:08 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:24:08 -0400 Subject: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? Message-ID: <0IHQ00GR1RW7M9M5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? > From: "Jerome H. Fine" > Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:37:27 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >Allison wrote: > >>>Jerome Fine replies: >>> >>>As far as I understand, a 22 bit PDP-11/23 and all >>>PDP-11/73 systems use the same memory as the uVAX-I. >>>That would seem to indicate that the same backplane >>>can be used for either CPU in a BA23 box. As for a >>>uVAX-II, I can remember using the SAME box for BOTH >>>a PDP-11/73 and a uVAX-II system at least 5 years ago. >>> >>> >> >>There were Q22 and Q18. >> >>The CD side of the indicated backplanes were notably different. >>It's my uderstanding the uVAX-1 had a special backplane to >>accomodate non-PMI memory and there were some power wiring >>differences that were dangerous to AB wired cards. >> >>One BA23 I got has a Q22 with all slot pairs AB/CB wired Q22 >>in a serpentine pattern. >> >>All three BA23s came from internal to DEC. >> >Jerome Fine replies: > >That would explain the situation since no one else seems >to have ever seen a pure Q22 backplane for a BA23. It's possible, I've done it and it fits well. The Q22 18slot (M9275) is a nice backplane for non-PMI based systems. >Since I can use a BA23 box with a PDP-11/73 with BOTH >normal memory below the CPU and PMI memory above the >CPU (actually, it can even be the same memory), the >uVAX-I should also be able to do so as well. However, >for a pure Q22 backplane will all slots wired AB /AB >(I presume that is what you really meant to write), Yep. >PMI memory would not be possible for the PDP-11/83. >I presume that would also preclude a uVAX-II which I >assume also needs AB / CD slots as well. Yes to that as well. >On the other hand, if all the slots were wired as >AB / CD as in an BA213 box (is BA213 correct - that >would be for a uVAX-III) which has only AB / CD, the >PDP-11/73 should also work along with the PDP-11/83 Yes and mVII as well. Though you forget the AB/CD, AB/AB mix of the BA123. >although I have never hear of anyone using these >boxes for PDP-11 CPUs since they require different >boards which likely are not available to be used with >the PDP-11 in most cases. Tony, do you have a UVAX-III >box or can anyone else comment? Never saw a BA213 with a other than a uVAX. >Note that a BA11-S box is a 22 bit 4 * 9 backplane and >wired AB / CD for all 9 Qbus slots. One of these years >I will try using a PDP-11/83 and PMI memory to test >the situation. M9275 18 AB slots (ab/ab), M9276 9ab/cb slots. That works. However I have BA-11S and BA11Ns with a mix of oddball non standard backplanes of my doing. Most are the H9275 type and do watch the backplane jumpers. The BA11N boxes are actually hybrids of 11S and I only do Qbus 11s. I have: H11 KD11-L in Heath backplane with serial and 16k ram 11/2 KD-11 (with eis/fis)in H9281-AB 8slot AB (dual width) 11/23 KDF-11 on 9281-AC 12slot AB (11/23 overclocked, (4)8059 256kram, DLV11J, RQDX3, RX33, RD52, VK170/LK02) 11/23 KDF-11A in a BA11VA 11/23 KDF-11B in a modded BA-11S 11/23 KDF-11B with Hardware FPU (M8189) in BA-11S 11/73 KDJ-11A in modded BA-11N Never mind having at least one of every backplane used for Qbus 11s in BA-11 or BA23. Allison From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Jun 7 20:26:22 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:26:22 -0700 Subject: homebrew computer on slash dot still "slashdotted" and other ramblings Message-ID: <42A6493E.36D31494@msm.umr.edu> I don't know if the owner of the site is here, but I was interested in a TTL machine that could run a tcp/ip stack, and what sort of design it was. Since being in a slash dot posting, the web site was unreachable, so I decided to hunt for it on archive.org. The site was last archived in sept 2004 and doesnt have what sounds like the slashdot article talked about, but did have a webring link at the bottom. The only other member of the webring is here http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html and is about a computer built 20 years ago by Dave Brooks', and has some interesting references to old machines in it, besides being also composed of 7400 series ttl. This exercise pointed to an os, ported to run on the commodore 64, pico]os, as well as the tiny tcp stack this article referenced. I am interested in these, since these efforts would make possible some bridges into the current technology by other than rs232 ports, and allow for such things as having remote access to ancient media, if possible, and so forth, on modern systems. I am lucky that I concentrated on saving and preserving 9 track 1/2 inch tapes for all I did, and have already read them. A lot of what people did though is not on such nice media. Jim From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 7 20:29:51 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <1118143596.26634.10.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200506070356.UAA13664@floodgap.com> <1118143596.26634.10.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <64919.207.145.53.202.1118194191.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Jules wrote: > Has there been any word from Apple employees about feelings within the > company about this? Yes. The ones that are being laid off as a result of this are rather unhappy. This includes ASIC designers, sustaining engineers, and various others. I don't understand the people that are bitching about Apple giving up the "secret sauce" that makes the Mac unique. The secret sauce is MacOS, and they're not giving that up. To a normal user, the brand name of the CPU inside the box makes no difference. What amazes me is that Apple didn't figure this out and switch a lot sooner. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 7 20:39:11 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dec boards- what are they? In-Reply-To: <17061.59315.78620.490370@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050607084147.00bc16d8@localhost> <10506071828.ZM26175@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <000b01c56b8c$1b10b380$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <17061.59315.78620.490370@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <32823.207.145.53.202.1118194751.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Paul wrote: > Apart from the obvious "if it's hex it must be Unibus" there isn't a > surefire way to tell things apart. DEC made *many* hex modules that are not Unibus. There are hex Omnibus modules for the 8/a, and plenty of hex non-Unibus modules in the KL10 (PDP-10) and some early VAXen. There were also "extended hex" modules used in the KS10 and other early VAXen. Eric From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Jun 7 20:51:00 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: homebrew computer on slash dot still "slashdotted" and other ramblings In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050608015100.72845.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> --- jim stephens wrote: > I don't know if the owner of the site is here, but I > was interested in a > TTL > machine that could run a tcp/ip stack, and what sort > of design it was. > > The only other member of the webring is here > > http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html There were actually half a dozen or so sites on the webring the last time I looked. Perhaps most of them have been slashdotted as well. :( The www.homebrewcpu.com guy is Bill Buzbee. He used to work at my company, and was one of my interviewers when I joined. A nice guy, and very much a software guy, which makes it that much more cool what he's done. Although Bill's machine is running the fanciest software of the machines on the webring, Jim Doran's machine is a rather close competitor: http://timefracture.org/D16.html Jim used CMOS, but the D16 hews to a similar old-school design philosophy, and has a similarly beautiful and over-the-top front panel. --Bill From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Jun 7 21:00:36 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:00:36 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 chassis (was Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11?) In-Reply-To: <62267.207.145.53.202.1118192498.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <0IHO00K8QCYFG4Y0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <5ca5ce9ea81b05307ba5fbea2d7d49b9@xlisper.mv.com> <62267.207.145.53.202.1118192498.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <8118d4630d85ef8e07c3afee3303b91a@xlisper.mv.com> Thanks! These pages are very helpful. On Jun 7, 2005, at 9:01 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > David wrote: >> Is there a description somewhere of all of the BA11-?? variants? It >> seems that there are many of them and they are of various sizes and > > Some information I've collected on them: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/pdp11/chassis.html > > Corrections and additions welcome. > > Eric > From robo58 at optonline.net Tue Jun 7 21:01:58 2005 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:01:58 -0400 Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... References: <200506070356.UAA13664@floodgap.com> <1118143596.26634.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <64919.207.145.53.202.1118194191.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <004101c56bce$0d773b80$f10fa8c0@P43200> Steve Jobs has considerably more enablement with the success and revenues from iPod and iTunes. He's out to show Gates what a innovative successful company can really do... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 9:29 PM Subject: Re: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... > Jules wrote: >> Has there been any word from Apple employees about feelings within the >> company about this? > > Yes. The ones that are being laid off as a result of this are rather > unhappy. This includes ASIC designers, sustaining engineers, and > various others. > > I don't understand the people that are bitching about Apple giving up > the "secret sauce" that makes the Mac unique. The secret sauce is > MacOS, and they're not giving that up. To a normal user, the brand > name of the CPU inside the box makes no difference. > > What amazes me is that Apple didn't figure this out and switch a lot > sooner. > > From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 00:47:25 2005 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Coco variations (was: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050608054725.71243.qmail@web81008.mail.yahoo.com> Yes I have one of those Tandy "Videotext" terminals. Mine came with a brown leather carrying case. The terminal is indeed silver with the chicklet keys. I'd have to go pull it up but it looked like a coco 1 to me but has a Videotext label on it IIRC. Since I don't have access to anything that would work with it I've never tried it out. --- Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned > these words: > >IIRC, Tandy also made a "Vidoetext" terminal that > was in a white version > >of the Coco 1 case. > > Not necessarily -- the one I saw at Dayton was in a > silver case w/chicklet > keys... > > However, it was 1) pretty beat up, and 2) too > expensive, so I didn't pick > it up. > > Ah well... ;-) > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in > advertising slogan > SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're > not the oxy... > zmerch at 30below.com | > ...in oxymoron!" > > From news at computercollector.com Wed Jun 8 00:56:03 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 01:56:03 -0400 Subject: Attenton, Commodore fans! Message-ID: <200506080555.j585tMT2038246@dewey.classiccmp.org> Robert Bernardo - prez of the Fresno Commodore Users Group - wrote a thorough report on the recent LUCKI Commodore Spring Expo. Check it out - see the "events" link on the CCN homepage at http://news.computercollector.com - enjoy! ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 740 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jun 8 02:46:28 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:46:28 +0200 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <42A59318.9000707@atarimuseum.com> References: <42A59318.9000707@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20050608094628.2835836c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:29:12 -0400 "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > Apple's move all but ensures the death of the PowerPC chip since they > were its biggest buyer. Note that todays IBM POWER chips are "nothing more" then PowerPC on steroids. Or better sayed a PowerPC, especially the G5, is a downsized POWER5. POWER / PowerPC will live on in IBMs server world. And don't forget the embedded market. There went way more PowerPCs into printers, cars, SoHo DSL routers, switches, DVD players, ... then im Macs. Remember MIPS? A big player in the workstation / Unix market. Now that SGI, the last MIPS user, switched to Itanicum, MIPS is dead in this market. But MIPS is _verry_ wide spreed in the embedded world. The amount of chips IBM is selling to Apple is tiny compared to there total silicon output. It cost IBM to much to improve the G5 / make it faster only for Apple. So they didn't, leaving Apple with a CPU that is faling more and more behind the x86 CPUs speed wise. Not to speak about the non-existing low power G5 for laptops. So the natural decision of Apple was to switch to somthing else. Unfortunately there is nothing else then x86 for this requirements. I don't like this switch, but I can understand Apples motivation. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Wed Jun 8 03:32:37 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (birs23 at zeelandnet.nl) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:32:37 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Whats this Correx thingie ? In-Reply-To: <42A61587.8050504@Rikers.org> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050607232538.027ff298@pop.xs4all.nl> <17062.4906.663748.164952@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42A61587.8050504@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <48319.127.0.0.1.1118219557.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Yes that 100% it :-) Mine is black though hehe > http://www.longislandindicator.com/correx.html > -- > Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org > Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ > BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! > From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Jun 8 02:56:36 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:56:36 +0100 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:43:14 CDT." <200506071743.14683.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200506080756.IAA26221@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Patrick Finnegan said: > On Tuesday 07 June 2005 13:01, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Today the only thing going for Apple is OSX (tightly written to the > > hardware), and that is not going to change. People who don't like > > piecing their machines together and going through driver hell will > > stick to the Mac no matter what was under the hood. Lately a Mac is > > for people who hate Microsoft and don't like messing with Linux > > installs. > > I disagree: > > finnegpt at excalibur:~$ uname -snrmo ; grep machine /proc/cpuinfo > Linux excalibur 2.6.11.7 ppc64 GNU/Linux > machine : PowerMac7,3 I disagree too...I run Yellow Dog Linux on a dual 180MHz PPC 7300. (It was originally a 200MHz machine, but the previous owner liked swapping bits around!) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From dieymir at yahoo.es Wed Jun 8 06:10:40 2005 From: dieymir at yahoo.es (=?iso-8859-1?q?Diego=20Rodr=EDguez=20Rodr=EDguez?=) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:10:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Compaq DOS 3.31 Message-ID: <20050608111040.84285.qmail@web25605.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi! I'm looking for a copy of Compaq DOS 3.31 rev. G (circa 1990) Anybody has this at hand ?? TIA. ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From shirsch at adelphia.net Wed Jun 8 06:36:53 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:36:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <64919.207.145.53.202.1118194191.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <200506070356.UAA13664@floodgap.com> <1118143596.26634.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <64919.207.145.53.202.1118194191.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Jun 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Jules wrote: > > Has there been any word from Apple employees about feelings within the > > company about this? > > Yes. The ones that are being laid off as a result of this are rather > unhappy. This includes ASIC designers, sustaining engineers, and > various others. > > I don't understand the people that are bitching about Apple giving up > the "secret sauce" that makes the Mac unique. The secret sauce is > MacOS, and they're not giving that up. To a normal user, the brand > name of the CPU inside the box makes no difference. > > What amazes me is that Apple didn't figure this out and switch a lot > sooner. My question is: Given the ability of upcoming Intel (and AMD) CPUs to self-virtualize seamlessly, how long will it take for someone to hack up a "preboot" supervisor layer which will support OS X on a garden-variety PC? They would almost have to resort to hardware-based DRM voodoo to prevent it. Steve From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 8 07:33:27 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:33:27 +0000 Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: <200506070356.UAA13664@floodgap.com> <1118143596.26634.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <64919.207.145.53.202.1118194191.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <1118234007.28457.27.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 07:36 -0400, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > My question is: Given the ability of upcoming Intel (and AMD) CPUs That was in interesting point raised in an article that I saw; why did Apple go for Intel and not AMD? AMD chips tend to be cheaper, plus they seem to always be slightly ahead of the game when it comes to performance and innovation (which seems to fit in more with Apple's roots). > self-virtualize seamlessly, how long will it take for someone to hack up a > "preboot" supervisor layer which will support OS X on a garden-variety PC? Have Apple said that they're going to run on PC-like hardware? I *thought* their only comittment was to x86 chips and that nothing's been said about system bus, support chips or other architecture. In which case there might be substantial differences between Apple hardware and a cruddy PC that'd mean a big rewrite / bodge of a lot of the OS to get it to work. It'll be interesting to see what some of the bigger Linux vendors do. Gnome and KDE are both horrible bloated messes in comparison; I wonder if any of the bigger vendors will push to design a decent desktop environment on top of Linux.... (here's hoping) cheers Jules From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jun 8 07:42:26 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 13:42:26 +0100 Subject: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: <64141.207.145.53.202.1118193644.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <000501c56af7$0622d6a0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> <64141.207.145.53.202.1118193644.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <42A6E7B2.2030601@gjcp.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan wrote: > >>I love the bit about trying to spin it at 30,000 RPM... long before it >>hits that speed, relativistic effects will kick in. > > > Nope. 30,000 RPM would result in the outer rim moving at 51,472 m/s, > which is only 0.00017c, nowhere near relativistic. But the floppy disk > is likely to break up at a little over 200 RPM, unless is is being tested > in an evacuated chamber. > > Eric Are you sure you mean RPM? Gas turbines can run at around 30,000rpm, as do turbochargers. Most floppy drives run at 300 or 360rpm (cue another long long thread about DD vs. HD). I haven't seen a floppy break up yet... Gordon. From rsnats at bellsouth.net Tue Jun 7 20:32:07 2005 From: rsnats at bellsouth.net (xyz) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 20:32:07 -0500 Subject: Whats this Correx thingie ? References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050607232538.027ff298@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <000001c56c28$dfa6f640$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> My guess is that it is a dial micrometer. Does the dial move when you push on the end of the rod. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 4:27 PM Subject: Whats this Correx thingie ? > Does anybody know what this is : > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/Dscf0009.jpg ? > > It says Correx, Swiss Made and Centi Newton, Gramm Pound > > Stefan. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 8 08:52:32 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:52:32 -0400 Subject: Dec boards- what are they? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050607084147.00bc16d8@localhost> <10506071828.ZM26175@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <000b01c56b8c$1b10b380$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <17061.59315.78620.490370@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32823.207.145.53.202.1118194751.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <17062.63520.285155.946814@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Eric" == Eric Smith writes: Eric> Paul wrote: >> Apart from the obvious "if it's hex it must be Unibus" there isn't >> a surefire way to tell things apart. Eric> DEC made *many* hex modules that are not Unibus. There are hex Eric> Omnibus modules for the 8/a, and plenty of hex non-Unibus Eric> modules in the KL10 (PDP-10) and some early VAXen. There were Eric> also "extended hex" modules used in the KS10 and other early Eric> VAXen. Sure. I should have been more precise. The original question was: "how can I tell by inspection whether a board is Unibus, Q18, or Q22?" Given just those three choices, what I said is accurate -- hex can't be Qnn so it must be Unibus by process of elimination. paul From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jun 8 09:02:41 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:02:41 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506080756.IAA26221@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200506080756.IAA26221@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <200506080902.41505.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 08 June 2005 02:56, Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > > finnegpt at excalibur:~$ uname -snrmo ; grep machine /proc/cpuinfo > > Linux excalibur 2.6.11.7 ppc64 GNU/Linux > > machine : PowerMac7,3 > > I disagree too...I run Yellow Dog Linux on a dual 180MHz PPC 7300. > (It was originally a 200MHz machine, but the previous owner liked > swapping bits around!) Just to clarify, a PowerMac7,3 is also know as a G5; in this case, a dual 2GHz G5. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jun 8 09:04:59 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:04:59 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <20050608094628.2835836c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <42A59318.9000707@atarimuseum.com> <20050608094628.2835836c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <200506080904.59429.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 08 June 2005 02:46, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 08:29:12 -0400 > > "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > > Apple's move all but ensures the death of the PowerPC chip since > > they were its biggest buyer. > > Note that todays IBM POWER chips are "nothing more" then PowerPC on > steroids. Or better sayed a PowerPC, especially the G5, is a > downsized POWER5. Erm, the G5 is a "downsized" POWER4, not POWER5. :) Considering that IBM is trying to move away from POWER4 to POWER5, that may also be why they're somewhat ignoring fixing up the G5. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 09:31:07 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:31:07 +0100 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <42A59318.9000707@atarimuseum.com> References: <42A59318.9000707@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640506080731732c186b@mail.gmail.com> > I'm sure IBM is not too happy, Apple's move > all but ensures the death of the PowerPC chip since they were its > biggest buyer. > > Curt > I doubt that, they "where" it's biggest buyer but i'm sure the xbox 2 will outsell all of Apples range. It also has 3 powerpc cpu's in it.. The Playstation 3 has the cell chip which has power processors. IBM probably do not even care, the extra business Sony and Microsoft just gave them will keep PowerPC alive for a while yet. Dan > > From allain at panix.com Wed Jun 8 07:08:05 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:08:05 -0400 Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too References: Message-ID: <00d701c56c36$925c8d60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > of late it seems to be a "contribute useless blather > just to keep the conversation going" list. People talk about collection as an addiction. They should also be aware of chat as one too. >From the outside, just the amount of typos in a typical posting seems to indicate a mindlessness that is nothing of what I've come here for. I've mentioned to Jay that a personal post-per-day limit would be nice. Apparently such a thing is not practical. How about a hard limit of 75 posts a day or 10 by any individual after which the Whole list would freeze until the next morning. That would cause things to sort out pretty fast. I kind of miss having a butt-kicking sort around on the list, but not really. John Allain returning right index finger to the add-value-through- key ;{ From allain at panix.com Wed Jun 8 09:45:42 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:45:42 -0400 Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... References: <200506070356.UAA13664@floodgap.com><1118143596.26634.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <64919.207.145.53.202.1118194191.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <011501c56c38$bfc2a4e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I don't understand the people that are bitching about Apple > giving up the "secret sauce" that makes the Mac unique. The > secret sauce is MacOS, and they're not giving that up. To a > normal user, the brand name of the CPU inside the box makes > no difference. Look at all the proprietary HW+OS companies that have split the issue later, but... #1 Pre-Historians here seem to say that the granddaddy of the PC was a buggy 8086 on a buggy motherboard, other sources rave at the granddad of the G5, the 68000, for its cleanliness. Is there little real quality distinction now after all these years or is bugginess just a non-issue? I'm saying the loss of the G'n(n=2..5) is a real loss. - - - #2 Are there No books on the bugginess of the PC architecture? I just read a sentence on DEC begrudgingly making 'bug for bug copies of the PC', and there's raving here but No books? I'd settle for a good chapter or two. John A. Sounds like trolling, not meant to be. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jun 2 09:39:32 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:39:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: <429C15BA.4050507@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <28110.195.212.29.83.1117723172.squirrel@195.212.29.83> > > On 31 May, 2005, at 09:43, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> r.stricklin wrote: >> >>> Until you bark your knuckles and need some bactine and a band-aid. >>> Citroen repair is OT. It's no huge thing, just please don't give us >>> this shaky rationalization. >>> ok >>> bear >> >> Oooh, I don't know, the oldest XMs are 16 years old and have a hell of >> a lot of computers in them. Just the place for a 68HCxx enthusiast to >> go and play... ;-) > > Actually, I have always been fascinated by the analog computers in old > cars. My CX Turbo has a few of them, but I never dared touch the > things. Oooh, I have. The heater temperature flap controller (big power op-amp driving the servo, one half tends to fail), for one. Oh, and I believe the ABS controller is analogue... Gordon. From ERBOTxMa at aol.com Thu Jun 2 11:56:45 2005 From: ERBOTxMa at aol.com (ERBOTxMa at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:56:45 EDT Subject: Inland ProBackup 500 sought (pinouts or software) Message-ID: <211.206bc86.2fd0944d@aol.com> Did you ever get an intelligent response to your inquiry noted below?? Am now looking for a replacement battery for the same. >From a previous life, I have a perfectly fine working UPS. The brand says "Inland - by ABI International". Model is "Probackup5000", part number is 19500. It has a DB9 serial port on the back for interfacing with a host to notify it of loss of ac, impending shutdown, etc. However, I don't have the software (for Windoze) that came with it. I've googled for hours, and can't come up with anything on this exact unit. Would anyone happen to have windows software for it? As a last resort, how standard is the DB9 pinout (IF I can find the pinout, no luck there either)... I'm wondering if I can use just about any UPS software for it. Any advice? From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jun 2 12:55:38 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:55:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33746.195.212.29.91.1117734938.squirrel@195.212.29.91> > > I'm currently seeking to purchase a complete BBC Domesday system with the > LVROM player, trackball, discs, manuals, and of course the BBC Master > system with the appropriate hardware. > If someone has one or perhaps a lead on a system, please contact me > directly. I have one disc, with a small chip in the outer edge :-/ I did have the player, but it was knackered. There used to be a complete system at Portlethen Academy, a few miles south of Aberdeen. That was in 1999. It might be gone. Gordon. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Jun 2 13:11:43 2005 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:11:43 +0100 Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: <200506021747.j52Hl1hl009561@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200506021747.j52Hl1hl009561@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <429F4BDF.704@gifford.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Two things. > > 1. Isn't that a "Doomsday System" Er, no. It's spelt "Domesday". Here's an informative page about the system: http://www.atsf.co.uk/dottext/domesday.html I saw one running in the Science Museum (London) a few years ago; anybody know if it's still there? -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From mamegrrl at ll.net Thu Jun 2 16:03:55 2005 From: mamegrrl at ll.net (Angela F) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:03:55 -0500 Subject: Test Message-ID: <429F743B.7090107@ll.net> Going back to 2003 and a post you made about the Radio Shack Science Fair 10 in 1... :) I have a manual for the 28-225 if you would like a scanned copy. Just let me know. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.5.0 - Release Date: 6/2/2005 From dfgraemedf at btinternet.com Thu Jun 2 16:16:04 2005 From: dfgraemedf at btinternet.com (dfgraemedf) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:16:04 +0100 Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: <200506022039.j52KdXZA015870@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <000001c567b8$48f7f420$0302a8c0@graeme8ya2gx24> Hi there , I have a fully functional system including community , national, ecodisk,volcanos and the countryside disks. It has taken me some time to get this up and running and would concur with the thoughts re transport. The lv rom is 43*40*16 cm and is very heavy and fragile I would not like to carry this on even if allowed . You also need a bbc master including the second processor and scsi interface card again fragile items to pack then you come to the disk packs the standard package is large and heavy approx 34*34*6. I think the cost of transporting would be prohibitive and the risk of damage huge. Regards graeme -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 02 June 2005 21:40 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Seeking BBC Domesday system > The players are pretty big - about four times the size of a DVD player > (at least), not to mention quite heavy (for what they are). I doubt > they'd be allowed on as carry-on luggage. > > It's the vibration I'd be bothered about rather than any temperature > issue though. The quality of the solder work on all the players I've > been inside is about the worst I've seen on any electronic equipment, I never even considered temperatures, I'm simply thinking of how non-carryon luggage is treated. You don't want some idiot deciding to see how far into the pile the box can be thrown. As for the size, it doesn't look that much larger than a standard Laserdisc player (though it looks a little thicker than most). Zane -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 267.2.0 - Release Date: 27/05/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 267.2.0 - Release Date: 27/05/2005 From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Fri Jun 3 00:13:29 2005 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:13:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Anyone here in lower Wisconsin? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 02, 2005 04:59:21 PM Message-ID: <200506030513.j535DT7n028260@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Ethan Dicks says: > >I've just started back to work for the University of Wisconsin, >putting me in Madison for the summer before I set out in October for >_another_ year at the Pole. In the meantime, I was curious how many >listmembers were in Wisconsin. ISTR someone here is up in Appleton, >but I can't remember who that is. Not sure if anyone else is in the >area or not, so I thought I'd just give a shout. > I'm in Milwaukee. Always willing to get together with other list members. Marty From bv at norbionics.com Fri Jun 3 02:51:22 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:51:22 +0200 Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: <200506022039.j52KdXZA015870@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200506022039.j52KdXZA015870@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <5a310c916dd260fbb9cae9bcc8c90fc2@norbionics.com> On 2 Jun, 2005, at 22:39, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> The players are pretty big - about four times the size of a DVD player >> (at least), not to mention quite heavy (for what they are). I doubt >> they'd be allowed on as carry-on luggage. >> >> It's the vibration I'd be bothered about rather than any temperature >> issue though. The quality of the solder work on all the players I've >> been inside is about the worst I've seen on any electronic equipment, > > I never even considered temperatures, I'm simply thinking of how > non-carryon > luggage is treated. You don't want some idiot deciding to see how far > into > the pile the box can be thrown. > > As for the size, it doesn't look that much larger than a standard > Laserdisc > player (though it looks a little thicker than most). With the "security" they have implemented in the US these days, I would strongly advise against taking any unique device on a flight there. There are too many stories of devices being tampered with, dismantled and ruined by trained monkeys. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Fri Jun 3 04:38:46 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:38:46 +0200 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <200506021741.j52HeuXW027562@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200506021741.j52HeuXW027562@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: On 2 Jun, 2005, at 19:40, Barry Watzman wrote: > ... > I really don't think that you understand the nature and capabilities > of the > product (Acrobat) that you are criticizing. I have used Acrobat since the first beta. Your comment just proves to me that you seem to be totally clueless about the important issues in modern electronic dissemination of information, so I guess I have to explain it in more detail. I am writing this with the help of Display PDF, the engine used for the display in Mac OS X. It is much superior to the inelegant kludges that make up other graphical display systems. Adobe is a company that understands about nice font rendering and the presentation of things. That is also what Acrobat is about, it is a way to make sure that the print shop is printing your document the way you intended. That is what a PDF file is good for, and in every other respect it is an inferior format. I have been working with communication and transfer of information between dissimilar systems for the last 30 years, so I have some idea about what is beneficial and what is harmful. Doing it the simple way is often more useful than trying to add features. Using a proprietary solution is usually bad, even it it is supposed to be the most widespread and "everybody" is using it. There are exceptions, but they need to be researched and documented in each individual case. If you scan a book, you end up with bitmaps of the pages. If you stuff these bitmaps into a PDF container, the only value you add is that they are kept together in sequence. The value you subtract is that they are no longer readily available for everybody, and anybody who wants to OCR them to make any kind of index or cross reference will have to use proprietary software or get them extracted from the container they are put in. Now, if you do it the simple way, you use a suitably named directory instead of the PDF file. In that directory, you can keep individual PNGs for each page you scanned, named P000 and up (use whatever starting value is suitable to reflect the page numbers in the book). If it is structured that way, you make a subdirectory for each chapter and appendix, and place the page scans in there instead. Thus you retain the structure of the original without using any proprietary format, and everybody with a graphical display will be able to use the scanned book. There are numerous image viewers available for all platforms, many will be graphical browsers which will navigate your pages and directories rather better than an Acrobat reader. Many suitable viewers are available from open source projects, so you can build one even on platforms which have been neglected for years. The most elegant solution, though, is to use an ordinary web browser to access the pages. It is trivially simple to make a website out of this directory structure, and there are many free server-side products available to make access user friendly without any effort by the maintainer. It is in the web scenario we most clearly see the "value subtracted" nature of PDF. If I want to look at the information of page 52, I have to get the whole document. That will waste bandwidth, and it makes the server more expensive to operate. Besides, I get thrown out of the normal working mode for my web browser and into the different mode of the Acrobat plugin (if that is supported on the platform I use, otherwise it will be the standalone reader or GhostView or something). The next important feature of the open solution is that it encourages a collaborative effort to add useful thigs like indexes, cross references and even full text versions. Take a look at Wikipedia to see what it is possible to accomplish when things are kept in open, universally accessible form. A repository of technical information could be set up the same way, and it would become gradually more useful as people added their comments and index hints for the scanned pages as metainformation. To OCR the pages just for use as aids to searching and indexing would be simple, the raw OCR output could be given the same name as the scanned page just with a .txt extension. If somebody later on were to proofread and mark it up, that would lead to a .xml document. These kinds of possibilities are only available if the documents are kept in a simple, logical structure that is accessible to as many as possible, not just for reading but for further refinement. In order to avoid technical lock-in today, my preferred document format is XML with CSS styling, either with an XHTML DTD or, ideally, a DTD tailored to the usage area and reflected by the stylesheets. Bitmap images are ideally PNGs, photographs JPEG 2000, and vector images are SVG. There exists a plethora of free tools to work with, transform and generate this kind of document. The most harmful things for anybody who wants a useable, syntactical web, are lock-in formats. The worst by far is Flash, with Microsoft Office formats closely following (even when the output is supposed to be HTML), but PDF is a good third. -- -bv From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Fri Jun 3 07:25:38 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 08:25:38 -0400 Subject: OT, but funny In-Reply-To: <429FB4CA.7070201@jcwren.com> References: <200506022130.j52LUu6t054210@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20050602192733.04d88a80@mail.30below.com> <429FB4CA.7070201@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050603081803.02deb0a8@mail.n.ml.org> 1- I'd love to see a scan of that HP brochure if possible =) 2- My sig. other has banned me from viewing my copy of Office Space on DVD when working for call centers. I have a bad habit of getting the urge to do some of the things in the movie since many of the places I've worked are exactly if not worse than the movie. ...Especially the damned TPS Report thing. Forgot to file 1 small insignificant item once that no one in the company looks at and has no real weight to the company financials (one of those "I've got to do it to show validation" documents) and got 3 supervisors, 2 immediate managers, 3 department managers, 1 division manager and 7-8 coworkers bitching to me about it. Aah, the life of a computer geek gone to hell... 3- Damnit, where is my precious RED SWINGLINE Stapler?! You know, I like it better than the staplers we use right now... those Bostich ones jam up and they aren't as pretty and they are kind of rough on your hand when you use them and... Hehehe, -John Boffemmyer IV At 09:39 PM 6/2/2005, you wrote: >Roger Merchberger wrote: > >>OK, there's a race car driver named Peter Gibbons, there's a character >>off of the movie "Office Space" (which I never saw, movie trailers looked >>*mucho lame* to me), and a teacher in the Department of Computer Sciences >>at the Univerisity of Auckland in New Zealand. > >Office Space is damned funny. It's one of the few movies I've seen more >than 10 or 15 times. *Highly* recommended. > > --jc From bv at norbionics.com Fri Jun 3 11:29:06 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 18:29:06 +0200 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <45058.71.129.198.222.1117779322.squirrel@71.129.198.222> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> <35038.207.145.53.202.1117678709.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17055.22895.852016.419260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602202556.GO29043@lug-owl.de> <17055.28318.175807.648509@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050602204902.GP29043@lug-owl.de> <45058.71.129.198.222.1117779322.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: On 3 Jun, 2005, at 08:15, Eric Smith wrote: > Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: >> You didn't answer my question:-) Consider I prepare a TIFF file that >> contains (with additional tags) eg. some raw OCRed text, not >> read-checked. Now I preapre a PDF from this and use gs to get the >> image >> back. Is my text still there? > > Depends on whether the program you use to prepare the PDF file from the > TIFF file knows about those "additional tags" and does something with > them. TIFF is another of those hopelessly cludgey formats I prefer to avoid whenever possible. I doubt there exists any image viewer which is able to display all the possible permutations that can be called "TIFF". PNG is a more modern format, made after people had enough bad experiences with other formats. It is designed to be free of any patents or restrictions, and is generally available. If the idea is to make something which can be useful for posterity, it makes more sense to use a well-documented format with a rational set of variations than something which grew as a series of ad-hoc solutions. -- -bv From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 20:16:24 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 02:16:24 +0100 Subject: Rescued: HP85, HP86B, 912x drives - score! - Update In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050531152057.009f9d20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Hi list, As you can see in the picture of the HP85 machines, 3 of them are missing their smoked plastic CRT faceplates. Not any more they're not :) I went back to the dumpster and managed to track down all three, and they have now been refitted. Now down to business: I don't actually want to keep any of these machines, I just rescued them because I know there are people who do, and I don't like to see classic computers going to landfill. Is there anyone out there on this list who'd like one/several/one of the disk drive units? If so, please drop me a mail and we'll work something out. Tony: thanks for your invaluable guide on how to sort the disk drive units out! Ed. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 3 23:09:33 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WTB:Vesta Tech/Radio-Electronics 80188 robot brain Message-ID: <20050604040933.79044.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> or at least the firmware. Vesta e-mailed me the Forth interpreter rom image, but thats all I have. I have the article and the artwork otherwise. __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 4 04:44:01 2005 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 09:44:01 +0000 Subject: HP 5181A (based on 9915) on eBay - what does it do though??? Message-ID: Hi, There is an HP 5181A currently on eBay for $50: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7521170381 This looks to be exactly the same as the HP 9915A (ie the industrial version of the HP 85A, part of the series 80), with the tape interface but sadly no operator interface (ie no video out and keyboard connector). I guess it has some special software on EPROM though. Has anyone on this list any info on using this machine, I can't see from the photos for example how it connects to the X-Y display it is attached to for example. Thanks, John _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger 7.0 today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk From whdawson at localisps.net Sat Jun 4 15:01:32 2005 From: whdawson at localisps.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 16:01:32 -0400 Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintage computers slated for demolition. Message-ID: I came across this very interesting, on topic story about the detection of an anomalous acceleration, the need to recover data which "exists on a few hundred ancient 7- and 9-track magnetic tapes", and the imminent scrapping of the original computers at: http://www.planetary.org/news/2005/pioneer_anomaly1_0510.html A snippet from the article: "With the spacecraft now silent, we cannot expect future data, so we must look to the past. In fact, there are hundreds of tapes containing data taken before 1987, when the spacecraft were between 10 and 40 AU from the Sun. This data from the time the Pioneers were still in the midst of this planetary realm could be crucial to solving the anomaly. Unfortunately, this data is stored on hundreds of ancient nine-track tapes, now lodged under a staircase at JPL. The tapes can only be read by equally ancient computers, giants compared to modern machines, which are slated for demolition. We must transfer this data to more modern media readable by up-to-date computers, but time is running out." Are there any list members interested in assisting in the transfer of this data to "more modern media"? Does anyone know what the "ancient computers" are and if a rescue of them from destruction is feasible? Regards, Bill Dawson http://www.swtpc.com whdawson From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Mon Jun 6 02:16:55 2005 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 02:16:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IMSAI 8080 Processor Card? In-Reply-To: <20050606013106.YWCV16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jun 05, 2005 09:31:07 PM Message-ID: <200506060716.j567GueX019219@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> I'm looking for an IMSA8080 main processor card if anyone has one they're willing to part with. Have a recovered IMSAI that's just missing the main card. Marty From cabledogas at adelphia.net Mon Jun 6 08:37:25 2005 From: cabledogas at adelphia.net (Mike) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:37:25 -0400 Subject: Osborne Executive disk images References: <1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <000801c56a24$1a3b0690$223cd7d1@randy><200506051925.36453.pat@computer-refuge.org><52491.71.129.198.222.1118018731.squirrel@71.129.198.222><1118058854.24761.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050606085941.00a553d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000b01c56a9c$e0577e80$2de1a445@atlaga.adelphia.net> .From: Joe R. . > Mike, > > Try Mike Haas. I gave him an Executive with a full set of disks. > > > Joe > . No ya didn't.... I did get a tan early OC-1 from you though, and I do/did have a set of Executive disks around here somewhere but no such machine. I'll search if they're not conveniently closer elsewhere. ;) - Mike: dogas at bellsouth.net From bv at norbionics.com Mon Jun 6 10:10:37 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:10:37 +0200 Subject: HP 3000?? Thing-a-ma-jig available In-Reply-To: <000901c5686d$9c33c690$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000901c5686d$9c33c690$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <2a7e300a738999237cccd41f2a9d6fb5@norbionics.com> On 3 Jun, 2005, at 20:54, Jay West wrote: > As part of another deal, I acquired a piece of HP gear I have no > interest in (nor do I know for sure what it is). > > It's an HP 30151A or "ATP Expansion Package". It appears to have 24 > modems in it, or serial ports at the least (I haven't popped the > cover). > > Pictures of the unit are at: > http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/hp30151A > > Can someone elicudate what this is and what it's designed to connect > to? If it's nothing I can use... it's available for shipping costs. This is the way to connect extra terminals to your HP-3000 if you do not run MTS. One cable to each 2645 or whatever. You could connect a lot of terminals to a big HP-3000. -- -bv From guerney at bigpond.com Tue Jun 7 04:47:27 2005 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil Guerney) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:47:27 +1000 Subject: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? References: Message-ID: <007e01c56b45$eb262bf0$e1d0828a@wolfie> Sellam asked > What is the "proper" name for the Tandy Color Computer? Is it that? Or > is it "Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer"? Or is it "Radio Shack TRS-80 Color > Computer"? I have all three boxed: CoCo1: Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer ("Custom Manufactured in Korea for Tandy Corporation") CoCo2: Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer 2 ("Radio Shack the biggest name in little computers") CoCo3: Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer 3 These were obviously versions sold in Australia - nothing to indicate they were special for this market though. Phil Brisbane, Australia From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 7 09:33:21 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (a.carlini at ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:33:21 +0100 Subject: Dec boards- what are they? Message-ID: <20050607143321.WYUM15401.aamta12-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> Tom Peters wrote: >Mystery board #1: > Pull-tab numbers: M7721 (Magenta) M7721 CONTROL LOGIC A,(M7711 WITH BELL LOGIC) LA30,DOUBL M7711 CONTROL LOGIC A,LA30,DOUBLE So something to do with an LA30 maybe? HTH, Antonio ----------------------------------------- Email provided by http://www.ntlhome.com/ From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Tue Jun 7 12:20:14 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:20:14 -0500 Subject: 8 inch floppies available Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0EE030E1@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I'll take 50, I have a DEC RX02 I have no media for :( -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 8:22 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: 8 inch floppies available I've just over 200 8inch floppy disks available for anyone interested. They're work disks from a paper company from 1985. All disks appear to be in good shape with no deterioration or mold that I can see from the random samples I looked at. Most are IBM brand. There's also some system master disks for an old XYCOM CP/M computer. Pay for shipping and you can add any extra if they're worth anything to you. Also got USCD p-system disks, Protem, some Micropro software with manuals and some original digital research master disks. I might keep these for bargaining purposes later. From john.vc at btinternet.com Tue Jun 7 15:15:14 2005 From: john.vc at btinternet.com (John) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:15:14 +0100 Subject: HP 5181A - how is it different to the HP 9915A? Message-ID: <001501c56b9d$9de07e60$6400000a@maddy> Hi, I see there is an HP 5181A on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7521170381 This looks exactly the same as an HP 9915A (the industrial version the HP 85A, part of the series 80), does anyone know please what the differences are? Sadly this one does not have the console interface for a keyboard and screen, but I guess it has additional software. Also it is shown bolted to an OX-Y display, but as there are no leads there is no clue there. Any suggestions please? Regards, John From bv at norbionics.com Tue Jun 7 15:38:28 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:38:28 +0200 Subject: 8' DSDD disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1064744b2ba3c0bfb51894c0a2349062@norbionics.com> On 7 Jun, 2005, at 00:28, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Yes, that was the reason. They had a 4x colorburst crystal >>> (14.31818 MHz). >>> They divided by three for the CPU clock, and by four for the >>> colorburst. >> >> Does that mean that IBM machines running PAL display rates had a >> slightly different CPU clock frequency as the main crystal would be >> different? > > There's no such animal. All IBM PCs, XTs, ATs run at US video rates > (for > example, 60Hz vertical sync frequency). There never was a PAL version > of > the CGA card, etc. I made a hacked CGA in order to get the colours from the original Flight Simulator displayed on a CGA monitor, since NTSC monitors were not generally available in Norway at that time. As far as I recall, I found some spare gates which could be used to demultiplex the composite signal into RGB. As you may remember, the FS used programming tricks to make NTSC colour in the monochrome "high resolution" mode. We used it in a running demo to show off the power of the PC! > > It was possible to re-program the CGA card (there's a 6845 in the > middle > of it) to give 50Hz vertical, and there were 3rd party encoder boxes > that > plugged into the RGB output (the DE9 connector) and produced PAL video. I also fried a monochrome display by trying to run it off a hacked CGA. It was not designed to stand up to the frequency change, even though I could adjust it so that it synched. > But they didn't use the motherboard clock for the subcarrier. > > -tony > -- -bv From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 23:17:24 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Televideo Personal Mini Message-ID: <20050608041724.21288.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Anyone got one? What about just the software? I'd be interested in hearing from anyone that knows about or better yet has used this early multi-user system. __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html From hatfield at bellsouth.net Wed Jun 8 04:28:02 2005 From: hatfield at bellsouth.net (Fred Hatfield) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:28:02 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 22, Issue 10 References: <200506071655.j57Gtp9T030278@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00ef01c56c0c$5e91ada0$0202a8c0@ORG> > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:07:16 -0700 (PDT) > From: Fred Cisin > Subject: 8' DSDD disk was: PC speed was Re: 8' DSDD disk > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <20050606150540.M66892 at shell.lmi.net> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> As far as the 8' disks I always had to get a couple of buddies to help >> change disks, the real bitch was the lock down bar or was that holding >> down >> the shift key when typing ;-} > > ... but the 8' FLOPPY disk could be folded a few dozen times to fit in > your pocket I had a helluva time getting past that 7th fold!..... Fred K8VDU From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 8 09:55:44 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:55:44 -0400 Subject: Whats this Correx thingie ? References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050607232538.027ff298@pop.xs4all.nl> <000001c56c28$dfa6f640$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> Message-ID: <17063.1776.161734.121193@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "xyz" == xyz writes: xyz> My guess is that it is a dial micrometer. Does the dial move xyz> when you push on the end of the rod. If it were a micrometer it would be calibrated in millimeters, or inches, or other units of length. Given that it's calibrated in centinewtons [sic] it obviously has to be a force gauge, not a position indicator. paul From James at jdfogg.com Wed Jun 8 10:34:34 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:34:34 -0400 Subject: Compaq DOS 3.31 Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045AF1@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I'm looking for a copy of Compaq DOS 3.31 rev. G (circa 1990) > Anybody has this at hand ?? I have the Compaq disks that come with a Portable III, I think it's DOS 3.31. I also have the Compaq diag disk to set the BIOS in the Portable III and other models. I need to dupe these disks anyways, I can make a set for you too. I need to install a 5 1/4 disk in a modern machine first. Now the big question.... Can I still buy 5 1/4 disk blanks? And do you need 5 1/4 or 3 1/2? OR - can you use a dd copy (disk image) that will allow you to make your own? ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 8 10:45:28 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:45:28 -0400 Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintage computers slated for demolition. References: Message-ID: <17063.4760.378314.124738@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Bill" == Bill Dawson writes: Bill> I came across this very interesting, on topic story about the Bill> detection of an anomalous acceleration, the need to recover Bill> data which "exists on a few hundred ancient 7- and 9-track Bill> magnetic tapes", and the imminent scrapping of the original Bill> computers at: Bill> http://www.planetary.org/news/2005/pioneer_anomaly1_0510.html Bill> ...Does anyone know what the "ancient computers" are and if a Bill> rescue of them from destruction is feasible? Just because the computers are scrapped doesn't mean the data are lost. The article is unreasonably alarmist about that. Then again, the reason becomes obvious a few lines later -- the "act now" link demonstrates that this is a "begging for money" gimmick. One also wonders whether tapes "lodged under a staircase" are likely to be important... paul From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 8 11:00:31 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:00:31 -0500 Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintage computers slated for demolition. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050608105929.05412288@mail> At 03:01 PM 6/4/2005, Bill Dawson wrote: >Does anyone know what the "ancient computers" are and if a rescue >of them from destruction is feasible? I sent Dr. Andersen a note asking those questions, we'll see if he responds... The Planetary Society's page has several links to solicit funds for the operation. It looked like they wanted cash, not computers. :-) - John From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Jun 8 11:27:15 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:27:15 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 22, Issue 10 References: <200506071655.j57Gtp9T030278@dewey.classiccmp.org> <00ef01c56c0c$5e91ada0$0202a8c0@ORG> Message-ID: <001901c56c46$ee950020$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Fred Hatfield" Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 4:28 AM > > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 15:07:16 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Fred Cisin > > Subject: 8' DSDD disk was: PC speed was Re: 8' DSDD disk > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Message-ID: <20050606150540.M66892 at shell.lmi.net> > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > > On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >> As far as the 8' disks I always had to get a couple of buddies to help > >> change disks, the real bitch was the lock down bar or was that holding > >> down > >> the shift key when typing ;-} > > > > ... but the 8' FLOPPY disk could be folded a few dozen times to fit in > > your pocket > > I had a helluva time getting past that 7th fold!..... > > Fred K8VDU Wouldn't it be easier to just keep them in the box? Of course the box would be taller than my ceiling so I would have to lean it over at an angle. There would also be a problem getting the box through the 6'6" doors ;-) Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Jun 8 11:34:34 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:34:34 -0400 Subject: Paging Michael Schneider Message-ID: <42A71E1A.301@jcwren.com> Michael, I am trying to get ahold of you to return the MC14500B book you loaned me, but the ms at vaxcluster.de address is rejecting email. Could you please email me your mailing address? Thanks, --jc From vrs at msn.com Wed Jun 8 11:20:28 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:20:28 -0700 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation References: <200506021741.j52HeuXW027562@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: Apologies to the list for spending yet more bandwidth on this, but Bj?rn actually presented an alternative in a reasonable way (thanks!), and I think it is important to address that... From: "Bj?rn Vermo" > I have used Acrobat since the first beta. ... > I am writing this with the help of Display PDF, the engine used for the > display in Mac OS X. It is much superior to the inelegant kludges that > make up other graphical display systems. Adobe is a company that > understands about nice font rendering and the presentation of things. > That is also what Acrobat is about, it is a way to make sure that the > print shop is printing your document the way you intended. That is what > a PDF file is good for, and in every other respect it is an inferior > format. ... > If you scan a book, you end up with bitmaps of the pages. If you stuff > these bitmaps into a PDF container, the only value you add is that they > are kept together in sequence. The value you subtract is that they are > no longer readily available for everybody, and anybody who wants to OCR > them to make any kind of index or cross reference will have to use > proprietary software or get them extracted from the container they are > put in. Now, by your own admission, I have also added value to the way it will be displayed and printed by Acrobat users. This is also consistent with my experience. Acrobat really does understand scaling and viewability, to a degree generally not matched elsewhere. There is also an argument whether PDF format actually makes the document unavailable to more people, or available to more people. > Now, if you do it the simple way, you use a suitably named directory > instead of the PDF file. In that directory, you can keep individual > PNGs for each page you scanned, named P000 and up (use whatever > starting value is suitable to reflect the page numbers in the book). If > it is structured that way, you make a subdirectory for each chapter and > appendix, and place the page scans in there instead. Thus you retain > the structure of the original without using any proprietary format, and > everybody with a graphical display will be able to use the scanned > book. There are numerous image viewers available for all platforms, > many will be graphical browsers which will navigate your pages and > directories rather better than an Acrobat reader. Here I completely disagree. I have a graphical display, and I can't view a TIFF file or a PNG file easily at all. All the viewers the I have have non-uniform, kludgy interfaces. They also require me to start a separate application or plug-in, just as PDF does. None of them render the pages as well as Acrobat, and the interfaces for browsing directories are laughable. > Many suitable viewers > are available from open source projects, so you can build one even on > platforms which have been neglected for years. Yeah, I guess. If I wanted to download, install, and maintain all that infrastructure, just to read documents on my screen. > The most elegant solution, though, is to use an ordinary web browser to > access the pages. It is trivially simple to make a website out of this > directory structure, and there are many free server-side products > available to make access user friendly without any effort by the > maintainer. Here, I'd point out that my web browser is awful at viewing image data. It wants to present the image pixel-for-pixel the way it is stored, or the way your web page told it to. Which knows nothing of my screen resolution, let alone my prefered work style. With the Acrobat plug-in, at least I can set the zoom and still read the work in question. > It is in the web scenario we most clearly see the "value subtracted" > nature of PDF. If I want to look at the information of page 52, I have > to get the whole document. That will waste bandwidth, and it makes the > server more expensive to operate. Well, sorta. What I actually do, and I doubt I am alone in this, is download the thing, and read it locally (performs better), which means I don't have to come back to you the next time I refer to the document. Since the usual case is that I will read most or all of the document, the PDF actually saves you significant server bandwidth. Plus, it automatically creates a back-up of the document, with a nearly trivial effort on my part. > Besides, I get thrown out of the > normal working mode for my web browser and into the different mode of > the Acrobat plugin (if that is supported on the platform I use, > otherwise it will be the standalone reader or GhostView or something). True, but this happens for essentially everything except GIF and JPEG. (Most of the formats you are talking about will invoke the hideous Quicktime plugin by default.) > The next important feature of the open solution is that it encourages a > collaborative effort to add useful thigs like indexes, cross references > and even full text versions. Take a look at Wikipedia to see what it is > possible to accomplish when things are kept in open, universally > accessible form. A repository of technical information could be set up > the same way, and it would become gradually more useful as people added > their comments and index hints for the scanned pages as > metainformation. To OCR the pages just for use as aids to searching and > indexing would be simple, the raw OCR output could be given the same > name as the scanned page just with a .txt extension. If somebody later > on were to proofread and mark it up, that would lead to a .xml > document. These kinds of possibilities are only available if the > documents are kept in a simple, logical structure that is accessible to > as many as possible, not just for reading but for further refinement. I concur that working on the document is easier with the pages split up. > In order to avoid technical lock-in today, my preferred document format > is XML with CSS styling, either with an XHTML DTD or, ideally, a DTD > tailored to the usage area and reflected by the stylesheets. Bitmap > images are ideally PNGs, photographs JPEG 2000, and vector images are > SVG. There exists a plethora of free tools to work with, transform and > generate this kind of document. Here you are mistaken, on several fronts. XML with CSS fails to "keep it simple" or make it easy for me to contribute. PNG is only renderable on my system with the nearly useless Quicktime plugin. I don't know what SVG is, but I doubt I can render it at all. Free tools are well and good until you count up the time it will cost me to bring up a PC-based development environment and keep it and the "free" tools working. > The most harmful things for anybody who wants a useable, syntactical > web, are lock-in formats. The worst by far is Flash, with Microsoft > Office formats closely following (even when the output is supposed to > be HTML), but PDF is a good third. I agree on the hideousness of Flash and Office. (What is a "useable, syntactical web", and why do I want one?) Vince From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Wed Jun 8 12:07:50 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:07:50 +0200 Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. References: Message-ID: <002a01c56c4c$9b26c210$2101a8c0@finans> Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. > Unfortunately, this data is stored on hundreds of ancient > nine-track tapes > Are there any list members interested in assisting in the transfer > of this data to "more modern media"? Yep, I make my living from projects like that. It will not be a problem to copy the data; but I dont have the foggiest idea whether the data is "decodeable". The best way to save the data, is to get a copy of the program which wrote the data in the first place. I have the funny feeling that the data is written in _huge_ blocks. Nico From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 12:09:09 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:09:09 -0500 Subject: Anyone here in lower Wisconsin? In-Reply-To: <200506030513.j535DT7n028260@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200506030513.j535DT7n028260@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: On 6/3/05, Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: > I'm in Milwaukee. Always willing to get together with other list members. Cool. That's not far. I have an SBC6120 with me, with IOB6120 and FP6120 front panel, a few 1802 machines, some kits (65C02, Henk's RealConsole, a perf-board INS8073, Elf2K...) and a work-in-progress - one of two prototype RX8s, a _Posibus_ RX01/RX02 interface that will eventually let one boot OS/8 on a PDP-8/L or PDP-8/i with at least 8KW of RAM. I have an old friend currently in Milwaukee... I should look him up anyway while I'm still here. Let me know what kind of time you have for old computers, etc., and let's see what we can work out. I'll be going home to Ohio a few times over the summer, but hardly every single week. Cheers, -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 12:25:56 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:25:56 -0500 Subject: Dec boards- what are they? In-Reply-To: <17062.63520.285155.946814@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050607084147.00bc16d8@localhost> <10506071828.ZM26175@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <000b01c56b8c$1b10b380$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <17061.59315.78620.490370@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32823.207.145.53.202.1118194751.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <17062.63520.285155.946814@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 6/8/05, Paul Koning wrote: > Sure. I should have been more precise. The original question was: > "how can I tell by inspection whether a board is Unibus, Q18, or Q22?" > > Given just those three choices, what I said is accurate -- hex can't > be Qnn so it must be Unibus by process of elimination. I think the semantic problem we are having here stems from where one is starting. The question we've been answering is a real world question, "I have this random DEC board in my hand... what does it go in?" and your question presupposes a subset of that "I have this random DEC board that is only Unibus, Q18 or Q22. Which is it?" In practical terms, one can't always *know* it's only Unibus, Q18 or Q22, thus the efforts to answer the larger questions. I've frequently seen PDP-8 and other boards mixed together in piles. Even if one _knows_ that a particular source only had Unibus and Qbus PDP-11s (reducing the likely range of products), something like a board from an RK611 or an RKV11 does go _into_ a Unibus or Qbus PDP, but is not itself a Unibus or Qbus board - the bus-level compatibility is managed at the backplane level, *not* the board level (for example - the RK611 controller is a set of hex-height cards and a 9-slot backplane that, dismantled, looks much like a DD11-DK Unibus backplane and assorted Unibus cards. The backplane is typically labelled "RK611" as opposed to "DD11DK", but unless you are a DEC-head, that doesn't mean a whole lot. Superficially, without inspecting what pins the wires go to, the two backplanes look the same. The same thing goes for the cards... superficially, the board that's part of the RK611 that has the 40-pin BERG connector (can't remember the handle number) has a superficial resemblance to an RL11, a common Unibus controller for the RL01/RL02. Same connector, same color PCB, same size, similar component density. Unless you locate an identifying mark on the PCB that _says_ RL11 (and know what one is), the only way to be sure is by looking up the handle number in a manual or on the 'net). We really aren't trying to evade your question, but we are trying to let folks know that barring a numeric list of products, there is no short list of easy-to-follow rules that _definitively_ distinguish a particular DEC board as exactly one bus type or another. There are rough guidelines that can help you eliminate certain obvious mismatches, but in the end, what ends up happening is that people like myself that have worked with DEC equipment over the years either _know_ what it is because we've seen one before, or we go look it up. I myself, with DEC experience going back to 1982, have misidentified things I've seen at hamfests. One particular example was, IIRC, mistaking the floating point board set for an 11/34a for some Unibus CPU. Now... in terms of your specific question, it wasn't like I thought it was a Qbus board set (being hex-height and all), but I had to look at it for a moment to discard some of the more common possibilities (OMNIBUS, primarily, something I _do_ go looking for at shows). From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 8 12:46:54 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI 8080 Processor Card? Message-ID: <200506081746.KAA06604@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Martin Scott Goldberg" > >I'm looking for an IMSA8080 main processor card if anyone has one they're >willing to part with. Have a recovered IMSAI that's just missing the main >card. > > >Marty > Hi Marty Many of the original 8080 processor cards were replaced by newer Z80 cards. One can recognize these by the fact that they have a 16 pin dual inline socket ( looking like a missing IC ). This connected the data bus of the processor directly to the front panel. Dwight From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 8 12:51:51 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:51:51 -0400 Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. References: <002a01c56c4c$9b26c210$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <17063.12343.750624.603391@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Nico" == Nico de Jong writes: Nico> Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL Nico> needed. >> Unfortunately, this data is stored on hundreds of ancient >> nine-track tapes Are there any list members interested in >> assisting in the transfer of this data to "more modern media"? Nico> Yep, I make my living from projects like that. It will not be Nico> a problem to copy the data; but I dont have the foggiest idea Nico> whether the data is "decodeable". The best way to save the Nico> data, is to get a copy of the program which wrote the data in Nico> the first place. I have the funny feeling that the data is Nico> written in _huge_ blocks. Actually, you'd want the data analysis programs. Unless that runs on some really bizarre machine, there should be emulations available. I wonder if it's a Cyber. Those of course still exist in reality, as well as in emulation. paul From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Jun 8 12:54:45 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:54:45 -0500 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Processor Card? References: <200506081746.KAA06604@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000701c56c53$27ea5080$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 12:46 PM > >From: "Martin Scott Goldberg" > > > >I'm looking for an IMSA8080 main processor card if anyone has one they're > >willing to part with. Have a recovered IMSAI that's just missing the main > >card. > > > > > >Marty > > > > Hi Marty > Many of the original 8080 processor cards were replaced > by newer Z80 cards. One can recognize these by the fact that > they have a 16 pin dual inline socket ( looking like a > missing IC ). This connected the data bus of the processor > directly to the front panel. > Dwight Yes many replacement CPU cards were made. The sad thing is that so manu Imsai & Altair CPU boards were thrown away :-( If you use a replacement CPU card just make sure you disable any of the "extra" functions such as POJ & MWRITE. Todd Fischer is the person to talk to - www.imsai.net. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 8 13:00:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. Message-ID: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Nico de Jong" >Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. > > >> Unfortunately, this data is stored on hundreds of ancient >> nine-track tapes >> Are there any list members interested in assisting in the transfer >> of this data to "more modern media"? > >Yep, I make my living from projects like that. >It will not be a problem to copy the data; but I dont have the foggiest idea >whether the data is "decodeable". The best way to save the data, is to get a >copy of the program which wrote the data in the first place. I have the >funny feeling that the data is written in _huge_ blocks. > >Nico Hi Two things needed, a tape drive and something to interpret the data. Many times, important information about the data is external to the recorded data on the tape. Like pdf or zip files, I suspect that some pieces may be missing to recover the information. I doubt that the major issue is the obsolete computer. Those doing archives might take note! Dwight From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Wed Jun 8 13:28:16 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:28:16 +0200 Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans> > > ... but I dont have the foggiest idea > >whether the data is "decodeable". The best way to save the data, is to get a > >copy of the program which wrote the data in the first place. I have the > >funny feeling that the data is written in _huge_ blocks. > > > Two things needed, a tape drive and something to interpret > the data. Many times, important information about the > data is external to the recorded data on the tape. > > Like pdf or zip files, I suspect that some pieces may > be missing to recover the information. I doubt that > the major issue is the obsolete computer. I quite agree, in a broad sense. I'm presently doing some digging in files coming from an 8" floppy originating from a CT Scanner. The data is perfectly readable, but part of the data is compressed, and no details on decompression are available. And the manufacturer cant/wont assist. Anyway, the first thing to do is to copy things to a modern media; data manipulation can be worried about later. So, let's try to read a tape... Nico From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 8 13:31:26 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:31:26 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... References: <42A59318.9000707@atarimuseum.com> <26c11a640506080731732c186b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00be01c56c58$47d39e60$af781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Williams" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 10:31 AM Subject: Re: Apple Goes Intel... > > I'm sure IBM is not too happy, Apple's move > > all but ensures the death of the PowerPC chip since they were its > > biggest buyer. > > > > Curt > > > I doubt that, they "where" it's biggest buyer but i'm sure the xbox 2 > will outsell all of Apples range. It also has 3 powerpc cpu's in it.. > The Playstation 3 has the cell chip which has power processors. IBM > probably do not even care, the extra business Sony and Microsoft just > gave them will keep PowerPC alive for a while yet. > > Dan > > > > I think the fact that the chips that will be used on the console during their run (what 3+ years of production) are exactly the same speed is a much better deal for IBM then having to constantly do R&D to get the G5 running faster every 6 months. Somebody brought up the question why didn't Apple go with AMD. I don't think AMD has the extra capacity to produce chips at the rate Apple would need without driving prices up. From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jun 8 13:43:51 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:43:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. In-Reply-To: <17063.12343.750624.603391@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > I wonder if it's a Cyber. Those of course still exist in reality, > as well as in emulation. Why do you think it was a CDC? JPL had no need for speed for these tapes. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Jun 8 13:51:36 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:51:36 -0500 Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com> <001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <000f01c56c5b$18c82200$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Nico de Jong" Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 1:28 PM > > > ... but I dont have the foggiest idea > > >whether the data is "decodeable". The best way to save the data, is to > get a > > >copy of the program which wrote the data in the first place. I have the > > >funny feeling that the data is written in _huge_ blocks. > > > > > > Two things needed, a tape drive and something to interpret > > the data. Many times, important information about the > > data is external to the recorded data on the tape. > > > > Like pdf or zip files, I suspect that some pieces may > > be missing to recover the information. I doubt that > > the major issue is the obsolete computer. > > I quite agree, in a broad sense. I'm presently doing some digging in files > coming from an 8" floppy originating from a CT Scanner. The data is > perfectly readable, but part of the data is compressed, and no details on > decompression are available. And the manufacturer cant/wont assist. > > Anyway, the first thing to do is to copy things to a modern media; data > manipulation can be worried about later. > > So, let's try to read a tape... > > Nico The problem is if the data format is not documented. Adobe understood that when they developed PostScript and PDF's, both are well documented. If you have data with an unknown format then you can speend years trying to understand it, Egyptian hieroglyphs were made readable by using the Rosetta stone. Adobe's documentation of both the PostScript and PDF formats are the rosetta stones for their respective formats. The information written in hieroglyphics as been translated to current languages including english. The original hieroglyphs are kept, I expect PDF's to be treated similarly. In the future as newer formats are created I expect automated proceedures will exist to translate PDF's to newer formats maybe akin to the babel project. Some have recommended use PostScript as a document archival medium. Adobe knows the limitations of PostScript better than anyone else and they decided that is is not the right format. They created the PDF format for the exact task at hand. I would never post a document as a series of individual pages. PDF is the structure that defines what the document is. I expect that in the future many better systems will not only be developed but will have wide spread acceptance. Right now only PDF's have universal acceptance. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Wed Jun 8 14:04:04 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:04:04 +0200 Subject: 3 small DEC books Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050608195811.027ecd48@pop.xs4all.nl> The following are available : - The DECmate Family Handbook - PDP-11 Systems Handbook - Guide to Information Systems, A Framework for Success These are all the same format, its those small Digital books about various topics. Think I have a few more but have to look em up. If interested let me know. Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Wed Jun 8 14:09:11 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:09:11 +0200 Subject: VT100 Keyboard Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050608210834.047bfbd8@pop.xs4all.nl> Was someone in here looking for a VT100 Keyboard ? I still have one. Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 8 13:59:30 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 13:59:30 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A74012.7040302@oldskool.org> I am glad for this announcement, only because I can finally talk about OS X on intel... as I saw it running over 7 years ago. 7-year NDAs suck :-) O. Sharp wrote: > I don't know if this is bad news or even worse news, but for those who > haven't heard yet: > > "At its Worldwide Developer Conference today, Apple announced plans to > deliver models of its Macintosh computers using Intel microprocessors by > this time next year, and to transition all of its Macs to using Intel > microprocessors by the end of 2007. Apple previewed a version of its > critically acclaimed operating system, Mac OS X Tiger, running on an > Intel-based Mac to the over 3,800 developers attending..." > > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/jun/06intel.html > > I think most of the eggs are in one basket now, and not a very reliable > basket at that. :( Opinions? > > -O.- -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 8 14:01:06 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:01:06 -0400 Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. References: <17063.12343.750624.603391@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17063.16498.803470.524090@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> I wonder if it's a Cyber. Those of course still exist in reality, >> as well as in emulation. William> Why do you think it was a CDC? JPL had no need for speed for William> these tapes. For processing the data? Remember, I'm talking about the postprocessing; it doesn't matter what system wrote the data. Cybers were popular back then for people who expected to do serious crunching, even if not all the time. That's the only reason I was wondering -- it wasn't even as much as an assumption... paul From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 8 14:07:19 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:07:19 -0500 Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: <200506070356.UAA13664@floodgap.com> <1118143596.26634.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <64919.207.145.53.202.1118194191.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <42A741E7.9090204@oldskool.org> Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > My question is: Given the ability of upcoming Intel (and AMD) CPUs to > self-virtualize seamlessly, how long will it take for someone to hack up a > "preboot" supervisor layer which will support OS X on a garden-variety PC? > > They would almost have to resort to hardware-based DRM voodoo to prevent > it. Even then, it won't matter, as anything contained in ROM/BIOS/whatever will be dumped with some program and used to emulate the later that the OS is looking for. Same thing has already occured (to a lesser extent) in the current Xbox hacking scene. The only thing that would have a chance of working (for a while, anyway) is something like PGP-style encryption, where a particular copy of an OS could only be decrypted by keys in ROM. This means each MacTel *must* ship with the OS pre-installed, as they would be tied to each other. But this is a ton of hassle for the end consumer should anything go wrong, so it won't come about ( or last long). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 8 14:15:54 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:15:54 -0500 Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <011501c56c38$bfc2a4e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200506070356.UAA13664@floodgap.com><1118143596.26634.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <64919.207.145.53.202.1118194191.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <011501c56c38$bfc2a4e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <42A743EA.2020707@oldskool.org> John Allain wrote: > #2 Are there No books on the bugginess of the PC architecture? I don't subscribe to that opinion. I think that you could make a strong case that the design left a lot to be desired (16-bit 8088 segmented memory organization being the worst offender; lack of registers being the second) but I don't think it was "buggy". "Buggy" suggests that doing the same operation twice would not consistently return the same result, and on solidly-built IBM PCs and *solid* clones (like compaq, AT&T/Olivetti), in my experience, that has never been the case. I have seen cheap third-world clones that DID do this, but it was because they were poorly implemented (bad memory, incomplete BIOS implementation), not because the core design itself was bad. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 8 14:19:13 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:19:13 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506070402.VAA14282@floodgap.com> References: <200506070402.VAA14282@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <42A744B1.6070209@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Once people discover that writing a Windows app will do just > as well for *both* platforms, the need to write a Mac-specific one simply > evapourates. Why is this a bad thing? (I am being completely serious) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Jun 8 14:20:05 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:20:05 +0200 (MEST) Subject: 3 small DEC books In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20050608195811.027ecd48@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Stefan wrote: > The following are available : > > - The DECmate Family Handbook > - PDP-11 Systems Handbook I'll take these.. --f From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 8 14:26:27 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:26:27 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: <200506071352.GAA16720@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <42A74663.9070305@oldskool.org> 9000 VAX wrote: > What they need to do is to add some Apple ID in the PROM and check the > ID when booting OS/X. Then nobody can make a PC that can run OS/X. That is so trivial to hack it's not funny. A better solution is what I wrote earlier, something like public-key encryption where each copy of the OS shipped was encrypted with a key stored in the PROM or something. And even then it would take under a month to add layers to create decrypted versions of the OS. My personal prediction is that we'll see copies of OS X that run on a normal PC in less than a year after introduction. (Note I didn't say if those copies would be legal or not.) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Jun 8 14:26:53 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:26:53 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... References: <200506070402.VAA14282@floodgap.com> <42A744B1.6070209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <004c01c56c60$06bbd340$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Jim Leonard" Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 2:19 PM > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Once people discover that writing a Windows app will do just > > as well for *both* platforms, the need to write a Mac-specific one simply > > evapourates. > > Why is this a bad thing? > > (I am being completely serious) > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ Creating a homogenous environment is neither entirely good nor bad. Having a homogeneous environment stifles certain creativity and created a mindset of uniformity. Having a world full of clones be it people or Windoze PC's sounds scary to me. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 8 14:44:41 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:44:41 +0100 Subject: VMS docs in CA In-Reply-To: <004c01c56c60$06bbd340$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> Message-ID: <001601c56c62$8475bab0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> I came across this in a newsgroup. I'm reasonably sure that V3.5 was never available electronically. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org Subject: Ancient VMS documentation Date: 8 Jun 2005 11:15:43 -0700 From: "Gunther" Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: comp.os.vms I have two complete sets of the Orange Wall, VMS version 3.5 vols. 1A thru 11, that are headed for the trash. Located in Long Beach, California. If anybody wants, please email at jdg at mail&news.com. Remove the ampersand and replace with the English language equivalent "and". From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 8 14:46:59 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:46:59 -0500 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: References: <200506021741.j52HeuXW027562@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <42A74B33.2020902@oldskool.org> Bj?rn Vermo wrote: > > In order to avoid technical lock-in today, my preferred document format > is XML with CSS styling, either with an XHTML DTD or, ideally, a DTD > tailored to the usage area and reflected by the stylesheets. Bitmap > images are ideally PNGs, photographs JPEG 2000, and vector images are > SVG. There exists a plethora of free tools to work with, transform and > generate this kind of document. Please name some. Every time I think about distributing information in an open format, I get utterly and completely overwhelmed by XML/CSS/DTD definitions and specs which I do not have weeks to learn. If it is EASY (meaning, it will take me less than a week to get up to speed), I will learn it. But you have to at least come close to my current workflow. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Jun 8 14:48:20 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:48:20 -0700 Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. In-Reply-To: <17063.16498.803470.524090@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <17063.12343.750624.603391@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17063.16498.803470.524090@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: At 3:01 PM -0400 6/8/05, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: > > >> I wonder if it's a Cyber. Those of course still exist in reality, > >> as well as in emulation. > > William> Why do you think it was a CDC? JPL had no need for speed for > William> these tapes. > >For processing the data? Remember, I'm talking about the >postprocessing; it doesn't matter what system wrote the data. > >Cybers were popular back then for people who expected to do serious >crunching, even if not all the time. That's the only reason I was >wondering -- it wasn't even as much as an assumption... > > paul I want to stay out of this as I'm too close to JPL, but... JPL did not have any CDCs at the time. At JPL proper for spacecraft data processing they had 3 IBM 360s [1st floor] and 3 Univac 1108s [2nd floor? hazy memory] in the SFOC. I don't know anything about these tapes in particular, but it is possible they were recorded in analog right off the receivers at the tracking stations (Madrid, Canberra, or Goldstone) and sent to the Lab. Another alternative is that they were written by Modcomps off of the comm link from the tracking stations [basement of SFOC]. Many other possibilities also exist in the signal and data processing chain. Folks familiar with that project would be best equipped to answer. [I started in '77 on Voyager, aka MJS in some circles. I never worked on any of the Pioneers.] John From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Jun 8 14:50:57 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:50:57 -0700 Subject: VMS docs in CA In-Reply-To: <001601c56c62$8475bab0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <001601c56c62$8475bab0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: I just tried to email the guy but got a bounce. I'm in Pasadena, so that's not too far. Will try again. John At 8:44 PM +0100 6/8/05, Antonio Carlini wrote: >I came across this in a newsgroup. I'm reasonably sure that >V3.5 was never available electronically. > >Antonio > >-- > >--------------- > >Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org > > > >Subject: Ancient VMS documentation >Date: 8 Jun 2005 11:15:43 -0700 >From: "Gunther" >Organization: http://groups.google.com >Newsgroups: comp.os.vms > >I have two complete sets of the Orange Wall, VMS version 3.5 vols. 1A >thru 11, that are headed for the trash. Located in Long Beach, >California. If anybody wants, please email at jdg at mail&news.com. > >Remove the ampersand and replace with the English language equivalent >"and". From cb at mythtech.net Wed Jun 8 14:53:20 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:53:20 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... Message-ID: >I am glad for this announcement, only because I can finally talk about OS >X on >intel... as I saw it running over 7 years ago. 7-year NDAs suck :-) Apple's early seeds of OS X had an Intel verison. Ran on standard PCs. I still have my copy kicking around here somewhere. I ran it for a short while. Of course, back then there was really nothing that ran on it. Classic didn't exist yet. Apple's original roadmap for OS X included the "Yellow Box" which was supposed to be an Intel version with Intel based OS compatability. Think Classic but for Windows apps. It also never came about. I suspect it may finally be heading that direction. -chris From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 8 14:55:07 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:55:07 -0500 Subject: Compaq DOS 3.31 In-Reply-To: <20050608111040.84285.qmail@web25605.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050608111040.84285.qmail@web25605.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42A74D1B.4020502@oldskool.org> Diego Rodr?guez Rodr?guez wrote: > I'm looking for a copy of Compaq DOS 3.31 rev. G > (circa 1990) Anybody has this at hand ?? Just curious: Why do you need this specific revision? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cb at mythtech.net Wed Jun 8 15:05:10 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:05:10 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... Message-ID: >My personal prediction is that we'll see copies of OS X that run on a >normal PC >in less than a year after introduction. (Note I didn't say if those copies >would be legal or not.) My gut feeling is, Apple knows this, expects it, and may not try to really stop it. They can't make a direct attack on Windows, they will loose. But, if they release Intel based Macs with OS X designed to only run on it, and the pirate world happens to hack a copy, and some hard core people end up getting it and running it on generic PC hardware, all Apple gets is an increase in OS market share. The people that are going to go thru the effort to find, download, and do whatever is needed to get OS X to run on generic hardware aren't likely to have been buying a Mac anyway. So Apple doesn't loose sales to these people. What they gain is an insight to how well OS X may fair against Windows. Also, some of those people may like it enough to buy a Mac, or like it enough to tell their friends, who may in turn buy a Mac. Apple makes sales, and doesn't really loose any, and either way the OS market share increases, more people use it, and more people develop for it. If OS X on generic PCs become popular, then the pirates will cause the market share to increase. If it gets to a critical level, Apple can then decide to release OS X on its own and they will be at a market share point to go against Windows. If they never get to that point, then they never have to release a stand alone version. -chris From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jun 8 15:26:26 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't know anything about these tapes in particular, but it is > possible they were recorded in analog right off the receivers at the > tracking stations (Madrid, Canberra, or Goldstone) and sent to the > Lab. I think it was always done like this, correct? - redundant analog tape machines coming off the redundant receivers. These tapes were then processed into the digital data (getting rid of the fades, farts, and burps from the radio). I suspect all of the noises that keep popping up about unreadable tapes of the space program have to do with these original analog telemetry tapes. Nobody uses them anymore (have not for years). RCS has a big HP tape transport - a seven foot rack with 12 channels (I think). It records something like 1000 Hz down to DC. We have tried to give it away for years (yes, speak up now if you want it - pick up only in Providence), but have not found a single interested taker. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From spedraja at ono.com Wed Jun 8 15:28:40 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:28:40 +0200 Subject: Televideo Personal Mini References: <20050608041724.21288.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009301c56c68$a87c8aa0$1502a8c0@ACER> This was sold in the beginning of the 80's. I have some Ad's from the Professional Computer Magazines edited in Spain in this epoch. It had Infoshare for OS (the early version of Netware) and used one 80186 for processor. There was one in eBay recently in which I was interested, but I had bad luck :-) Regards Sergio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 6:17 AM Subject: Televideo Personal Mini > Anyone got one? What about just the software? I'd be > interested in hearing from anyone that knows about or > better yet has used this early multi-user system. > > > > __________________________________ > Discover Yahoo! > Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! > http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Jun 8 15:56:41 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:56:41 -0700 Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:26 PM -0400 6/8/05, William Donzelli wrote: > > I don't know anything about these tapes in particular, but it is >> possible they were recorded in analog right off the receivers at the >> tracking stations (Madrid, Canberra, or Goldstone) and sent to the >> Lab. > >I think it was always done like this, correct? - redundant analog tape >machines coming off the redundant receivers. These tapes were then >processed into the digital data (getting rid of the fades, farts, and >burps from the radio). Don't know about always, but certainly for a long time. I haven't been involved in this for quite some time, but IIRC the MkIV receivers output digital, channelized (decommutated) data only, no analog, no symbols, etc. The MkIIIs output at the symbol level, so straddling the divide between analog and digital, no decommutation, though. You still had to convert symbols to bits and separate the channels. The MkIVs have been in use since the early '90s (approximately). Maybe they've been replaced by now. Maybe I have my version numbers mixed up but that's roughly the landscape as it was when I left. John From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 8 16:27:52 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <1118234007.28457.27.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200506070356.UAA13664@floodgap.com> <1118143596.26634.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <64919.207.145.53.202.1118194191.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <1118234007.28457.27.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <63669.207.145.53.202.1118266072.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Jules wrote: > That was in interesting point raised in an article that I saw; why did > Apple go for Intel and not AMD? AMD chips tend to be cheaper, plus they > seem to always be slightly ahead of the game when it comes to > performance and innovation (which seems to fit in more with Apple's > roots). There's no reason to believe that they won't use AMD chips. Intel has a better low-power product for laptops (Pentium M/Celeron), and that's what they are starting with. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 8 16:35:44 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <63669.207.145.53.202.1118266072.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <200506070356.UAA13664@floodgap.com> <1118143596.26634.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <64919.207.145.53.202.1118194191.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <1118234007.28457.27.camel@weka.localdomain> <63669.207.145.53.202.1118266072.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <65230.207.145.53.202.1118266544.squirrel@207.145.53.202> I wrote: > Intel has a better low-power product for laptops (Pentium M/Celeron), s/Celeron/Centrino/ From shirsch at adelphia.net Wed Jun 8 16:55:30 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:55:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <1118234007.28457.27.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200506070356.UAA13664@floodgap.com> <1118143596.26634.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <64919.207.145.53.202.1118194191.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <1118234007.28457.27.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 07:36 -0400, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > > > self-virtualize seamlessly, how long will it take for someone to hack up a > > "preboot" supervisor layer which will support OS X on a garden-variety PC? > > Have Apple said that they're going to run on PC-like hardware? I > *thought* their only comittment was to x86 chips and that nothing's been > said about system bus, support chips or other architecture. In which > case there might be substantial differences between Apple hardware and a > cruddy PC that'd mean a big rewrite / bodge of a lot of the OS to get it > to work. Ah, but that's the point of virtualization. The environment can be setup to look like something quite different from the actual hardware. Also, if Apple is really aggressively looking at cost savings, they'll be likely to use the Intel north and south bridge chipsets. Unless they plan on custom asics galore, there's a bound to how "different" the hardware can look. Steve From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 8 17:04:25 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... Message-ID: <200506082204.PAA06689@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Steven N. Hirsch" > >On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 07:36 -0400, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: >> >> > self-virtualize seamlessly, how long will it take for someone to hack up a >> > "preboot" supervisor layer which will support OS X on a garden-variety PC? >> >> Have Apple said that they're going to run on PC-like hardware? I >> *thought* their only comittment was to x86 chips and that nothing's been >> said about system bus, support chips or other architecture. In which >> case there might be substantial differences between Apple hardware and a >> cruddy PC that'd mean a big rewrite / bodge of a lot of the OS to get it >> to work. > >Ah, but that's the point of virtualization. The environment can be setup >to look like something quite different from the actual hardware. Also, if >Apple is really aggressively looking at cost savings, they'll be likely to >use the Intel north and south bridge chipsets. Unless they plan on >custom asics galore, there's a bound to how "different" the hardware can >look. > >Steve > > Hi A little commercial: Intel specs their chip as an average power consumption while AMD ( where I work ) specs the maximum power at for the low power parts. Still, there is a lot of room for improvement in both Intel's and our products. The chipsets are quite different and would require different motherboards. Just a point to notice. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 8 17:42:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:42:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 5181A (based on 9915) on eBay - what does it do though??? In-Reply-To: from "John S" at Jun 4, 5 09:44:01 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > There is an HP 5181A currently on eBay for $50: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7521170381 > > This looks to be exactly the same as the HP 9915A (ie the industrial version > of the HP 85A, part of the series 80), with the tape interface but sadly no > operator interface (ie no video out and keyboard connector). I guess it has > some special software on EPROM though. It's not certain that it's got the normal 9915 boards inside, even though the front and rear panels look identical. Actually, on a 9915 without the Operator Interface boardm, do you get a back panel with the holes present but blanked off, or do you get a back panel without holes? As the back panel is part odf the chassis, I would have guessed the former (making it possible to field-upgrade to the Operator Interface later), but I am not sure. If it is a 9915 in there, it's possible the system ROMs are non-standard. Or that a special ROM is fitted to one of the ROM module connectors. > > Has anyone on this list any info on using this machine, I can't see from the > photos for example how it connects to the X-Y display it is attached to for > example. Well, the normal way to link one to a 9915 is to put an HPIB interface in one of the slots and hang a 1350 or 1351 'graphics translator' off it. I wonder if this 5181 is designed to have an HPIB interface in one of the slots. It may be designed to act as a listener/talker only (not a controller), and to connect to some other computer as a storage device. The hardware, assuming it is 9915-based is capable of that, obviously. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 8 17:48:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:48:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Coco variations (was: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? In-Reply-To: <20050607163911.E99645@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 7, 5 04:45:42 pm Message-ID: > > IIRC, Tandy also made a "Vidoetext" terminal that was in a white version > of the Coco 1 case. I've always wondered what was inside that Videotex machine. I've not seen the service manual on the web anywhere, and I've never seen any info in print. Is it a modified CoCo? Does it even have a 6809 + 6883 (SAM) + 6847 (VDG) in the middile of it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 8 17:51:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:51:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dec boards- what are they? In-Reply-To: <32823.207.145.53.202.1118194751.squirrel@207.145.53.202> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 7, 5 06:39:11 pm Message-ID: > DEC made *many* hex modules that are not Unibus. There are hex Omnibus May not even be DEC, or for a DEC machine... Somewhere I have a thing which claims to be a 370/E. I am not sure who made it, but I am told it emulates the user-mode instruction set of an IBM370, but it's built from F TTL on boards of the same form factor as DEC Hex boards. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 8 17:45:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:45:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? In-Reply-To: <007e01c56b45$eb262bf0$e1d0828a@wolfie> from "Phil Guerney" at Jun 7, 5 07:47:27 pm Message-ID: > CoCo3: Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer 3 > > These were obviously versions sold in Australia - nothing to indicate they > were special for this market though. I have the CoCo3 Service Manual, and the Australian version is very different to the US version. To get PAL video out of it, they ignored the composite output from the GIME chip and fitted a PAL encoder board connected to the RGB outputs (which also went to the RGB connector of course). The mainboard layout is different, the clock crystal and, IIRC, BASIC ROM, ara also changed. Of course the name is almost certain to be unchanged. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 8 18:00:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:00:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: IMSAI Score update/Spare BYTEs/Got an Altair too In-Reply-To: <00d701c56c36$925c8d60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Jun 8, 5 08:08:05 am Message-ID: > I've mentioned to Jay that a personal post-per-day > limit would be nice. Apparently such a thing is not practical. > How about a hard limit of 75 posts a day or 10 by any individual > after which the Whole list would freeze until the next morning. > That would cause things to sort out pretty fast. I think that is a _really_ bad idea. In fact it would drive me off the list for good Remember this is an international list (which is a Good Thing). So suppose the 'day' runs from midnight to midnight in one of the US time zones. Depending on where you are in the world, your work schedule, etc, will depend whether you are active near the start of the day or the end. If the latter you may be rarely able to post. In terms of the limit-per-person, that's a Bad Thing too. Suppose a person sees 15 messages he's got useful replies for. Said person will decide to reply to the 10 he feels he knows most about, but maybe one of the ones he misses out _nobody_ else knows anything about, so his comment on that would have been very useful. And if you're going to have it so that once a person has posted 10 messages then nobody else can post, that's even worse. Some idiot will post 10 useless replies in the first few minutes of the day, nobody else will be able to say anything. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 8 18:02:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:02:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: RE: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <011501c56c38$bfc2a4e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Jun 8, 5 10:45:42 am Message-ID: > #2 Are there No books on the bugginess of the PC architecture? > I just read a sentence on DEC begrudgingly making > 'bug for bug copies of the PC', and there's raving here but No books? > I'd settle for a good chapter or two. Just get hold of the IBM PC, PC/XT, PC/AT, Options and Adapters, etc Techrefs. Read the schematics and the ROM sources. You'll soon see examples of what we moan about.... -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 8 18:43:46 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <42A744B1.6070209@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Jun 8, 5 02:19:13 pm" Message-ID: <200506082343.QAA15584@floodgap.com> > > Once people discover that writing a Windows app will do just > > as well for *both* platforms, the need to write a Mac-specific one simply > > evapourates. > > Why is this a bad thing? Are you kidding? Because it makes the Intel Mac another Windows PC, that's why. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I am NOT defensive! I'M NOT I'M NOT I'M NOT!!!! ---------------------------- From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 8 18:56:02 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506082343.QAA15584@floodgap.com> References: <42A744B1.6070209@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Jun 8, 5 02:19:13 pm" <200506082343.QAA15584@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <53063.207.145.53.202.1118274962.squirrel@207.145.53.202> >>> Once people discover that writing a Windows app will do just >>> as well for *both* platforms, the need to write a Mac-specific one >>> simply evapourates. >> Why is this a bad thing? > Are you kidding? > Because it makes the Intel Mac another Windows PC, that's why. I really couldn't care less whether one crappy proprietary OS displaces another crappy proprietary OS. Maybe one is a little better than the other, or maybe even a lot, but I'm not throwing away my money on either. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 8 19:03:30 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <53063.207.145.53.202.1118274962.squirrel@207.145.53.202> from Eric Smith at "Jun 8, 5 04:56:02 pm" Message-ID: <200506090003.RAA16264@floodgap.com> >>>>Once people discover that writing a Windows app will do just >>>>as well for *both* platforms, the need to write a Mac-specific one >>>>simply evapourates. >>>Why is this a bad thing? >>Are you kidding? >>Because it makes the Intel Mac another Windows PC, that's why. >I really couldn't care less whether one crappy proprietary OS displaces >another crappy proprietary OS. Maybe one is a little better than the >other, or maybe even a lot, but I'm not throwing away my money on either. So what was the purpose of your reply, then, if you have no interest in either Windows or Mac? In my case, the whole reason I went with Mac is to keep Windows off my desktop and because I think Apple has superior hardware engineering to a whitebox PC. With the possibility of desktop OS heterogeneity eroding (save for the few souls, bless them, bravely using Linux as their desktop OS), I don't think Apple can prop itself up as a high end PC maker. Sony has tried this, and they aren't doing so hot. But then, you don't really care, do you? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Is there another word for synonym? ----------------------------------------- From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 8 19:25:52 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506090003.RAA16264@floodgap.com> References: <53063.207.145.53.202.1118274962.squirrel@207.145.53.202> from Eric Smith at "Jun 8, 5 04:56:02 pm" <200506090003.RAA16264@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <57711.207.145.53.202.1118276752.squirrel@207.145.53.202> > So what was the purpose of your reply, then, if you have no interest in > either Windows or Mac? In my case, the whole reason I went with Mac is > to keep Windows off my desktop and because I think Apple has superior > hardware engineering to a whitebox PC. Than an average whitebox PC, quite probably. But if you choose components for your whitebox PC carefully, I think you can get stuff significantly better than what Apple makes, for less money. > But then, you don't really care, do you? I care about being able to buy reasonably inexpensive hardware to run non-proprietary operating systems (e.g., BSD or Linux). To the extent that Apple makes good hardware that can run those, I'm interested. If building x86-based hardware lets Apple produce lower-priced machines, I think that's a good thing. And I don't think the average user of a Macintosh really cares about what processor is inside it. If the software does what it's supposed to, that's what counts. Beyond that, it's all marketing. The "Intel Inside" campaign was evidently fairly successful in the PC market; it's unclear whether Apple will be willing to put "Intel Inside" stickers on their machines, but if they do it might actually result in a small increase to their sales. However, if Apple starts putting DRM in their hardware (e.g., Intel's LaGrande technology), such that it can't run unapproved operating systems, it will be useless as far as I'm concerned. DRM'd PC hardware that will only boot an operating system with a verified digital signature of an "approved" software company is Microsoft's wet dream; they want to eliminate both piracy of their OS and applications, and the use of free software alternatives. In that regard, Apple's motivations are aligned with Microsoft's, since they want to prevent piracy of OS X. So far Microsoft has claimed that the DRM features they're building into their software and pushing for inclusion into future hardware will not prevent running alternative operating systems, and will only be used to allow access to DRM'd content. That's bad enough, but I can reluctantly live with it, since I don't need that content [*]. But I think it's incredibly naive to expect that they will stop there, or that Apple won't jump on that bandwagon. If this happens, future computers will come in two classes: 1) Inexpensive, commodity hardware that can only run proprietary software 2) Expensive specialty hardware that can run free software, but cannot run the proprietary software. Extrapolating the trend further, we can expect to see software vendors push for restrictions and licensing on software development tools, debuggers, etc. See Richard Stallman's essay "The Right to Read". When I first read that essay, I thought he was overreacting, but the trends of the last few years (e.g., the DMCA, other countries enacting similar laws, the EU trying to adopt software patents despite the member states' parliaments voting against them, and the media companies pushing for even stronger laws) have convinced me that he is absolutely right to be worried. Eric [*] Up until it becomes impossible to get content that is non-DRM'd. What happens when you can't get the news, or your IRS 1040 form, without DRM? For those that don't think it will happen, consider that many government agencies worldwide routinely require the use of proprietary data formats (e.g., Microsoft Word, Excel) for interaction with the public. Microsoft claims that forthcoming versions of Office will use open data formats, but I'm skeptical. They're going to do that to the absolute minimum extent needed to avoid the $5M/day EU fine, but they'll still do whatever it takes to get customer lock-in. From rcini at optonline.net Wed Jun 8 20:39:41 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:39:41 -0400 Subject: Altair 8800b received Message-ID: <003901c56c94$1b4f2b20$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: Today I received the Altair 8800b that I won on eBay last week. I honestly say that this is the first machine that I'm honestly afraid to plug in. It was billed as "working but in need of a good cleaning" which is an understatement. The interior is filled with greasy dust. Among the other atrocities buried therein: * two bus connectors (out of 10) have destroyed pins * poor repairs/lifted traces on the display control board * repairs on the other boards (CPU and two memory boards) in need of a solder reflow * the main filter cap was replaced with two smaller (but equivalent uF) caps which were unsecured, banging around the inside. These broke one of the card supports. * the top cover has three 3/16" holes drilled into it I've asked the seller to give me a rundown of the history of the machine if he knows it. On a positive note, the switches appear to be intact and the panel graphics seem to be OK. Now, I remember someone asked me to look at the CPU board for some sort of identification. The CPU board has the following designation: "MITS 8800b CPU REV 0". For those who keep track, this unit is labeled SN#5400280K. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Jun 8 21:05:18 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 22:05:18 -0400 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? - Sending mail server found on relays.ordb.org In-Reply-To: <0IHQ00GR1RW7M9M5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IHQ00GR1RW7M9M5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <42A7A3DE.5040606@compsys.to> >Allison wrote: >>Jerome Fine replies: >>That would explain the situation since no one else seems >>to have ever seen a pure Q22 backplane for a BA23. >> >It's possible, I've done it and it fits well. The Q22 >18slot (M9275) is a nice backplane for non-PMI based >systems. > Jerome Fine replies: If you want to add one more backplane to your list, I used a 2 * 22 slot Qbus Q22 bit backplane when I did some Y2K bug fixes for some application programs. Specifically, this was a 22 slot backplane with ONLY dual slots, obviously all AB. The last slot had extra room to allow for a board of about 2" that held a small SCSI hard drive of about 100 MBytes. The 3rd last slot (and the 2nd last which it overlapped) help a 3 1/2" floppy or an RX23. There was a CQD 220/TM with special ROMs which supported the RX23 as a standard device with removable media. By the way, the power supply was not part of the box holding the backplane - they (power supply and backplane) were connected by a short 3 foot cable. I think that the ONLY DEC board was the M8192-YB CPU. As for one more backplane, I presume that you have the 4 * 4 slot (4 quad slots) for the VT103 which were sold with 18 bits, but could be upgraded in the field to 22 bits. At one point, I heard that someone made the first 2 slots AB / CD and installed a uVAX-II. That was beyond my ability, I only used an M8190-BB and a 4 MByte memory board with a CDQ 220/TM and a DHQ11. Those days fooling with the hardware were fun, but now that there are emulators that can run about 100 times the speed of a PDP-11/73, for an RT-11 software addict like myself, the hardware has become much less important. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From rsnats at bellsouth.net Wed Jun 8 21:14:28 2005 From: rsnats at bellsouth.net (xyz) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:14:28 -0500 Subject: 8 inch floppies available References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0EE030E1@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <007b01c56c99$00d03b90$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> I would like 50 of those also if you have that many. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wolfe, Julian " To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 12:20 PM Subject: RE: 8 inch floppies available > I'll take 50, I have a DEC RX02 I have no media for :( > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of SUPRDAVE at aol.com > Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 8:22 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: 8 inch floppies available > > I've just over 200 8inch floppy disks available for anyone interested. > They're work disks from a paper company from 1985. All disks appear to > be in good > shape with no deterioration or mold that I can see from the random > samples I > looked at. Most are IBM brand. There's also some system master disks for > an > old XYCOM CP/M computer. > > Pay for shipping and you can add any extra if they're worth anything to > you. > > > Also got USCD p-system disks, Protem, some Micropro software with > manuals > and some original digital research master disks. I might keep these for > > bargaining purposes later. > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 8 21:57:49 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 22:57:49 -0400 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? - Sending mail serverfound on relays.ordb.org Message-ID: <0IHS003O0QWBZH37@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: [SPAM] - Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? - Sending mail serverfound on relays.ordb.org > From: "Jerome H. Fine" > Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 22:05:18 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >Allison wrote: > >>>Jerome Fine replies: >>>That would explain the situation since no one else seems >>>to have ever seen a pure Q22 backplane for a BA23. >>> >>It's possible, I've done it and it fits well. The Q22 >>18slot (M9275) is a nice backplane for non-PMI based >>systems. >> >Jerome Fine replies: > >If you want to add one more backplane to your >list, I used a 2 * 22 slot Qbus Q22 bit backplane >when I did some Y2K bug fixes for some application >programs. Specifically, this was a 22 slot backplane >with ONLY dual slots, obviously all AB. The last slot >had extra room to allow for a board of about 2" that >held a small SCSI hard drive of about 100 MBytes. >The 3rd last slot (and the 2nd last which it overlapped) >help a 3 1/2" floppy or an RX23. There was a CQD 220/TM >with special ROMs which supported the RX23 as a standard >device with removable media. By the way, the power >supply was not part of the box holding the backplane - >they (power supply and backplane) were connected by a >short 3 foot cable. I think that the ONLY DEC board >was the M8192-YB CPU. I've seen one of them, third party nonDEC. The 12 slot is fine as a 11/23 board set and a meg of ram with RQDX3 it can hold everything needed except power. >As for one more backplane, I presume that you have the >4 * 4 slot (4 quad slots) for the VT103 which were sold >with 18 bits, but could be upgraded in the field to 22 >bits. At one point, I heard that someone made the first >2 slots AB / CD and installed a uVAX-II. That was beyond >my ability, I only used an M8190-BB and a 4 MByte memory >board with a CDQ 220/TM and a DHQ11. I have two. One modded for Q22 and the other Q22/ 2slotsCD. That was a had discussed internally at DEC. There were a few made. >Those days fooling with the hardware were fun, but now >that there are emulators that can run about 100 times >the speed of a PDP-11/73, for an RT-11 software addict >like myself, the hardware has become much less important. Doesn't work for me. Sims are useful but the fastest PC I have is a 1g celeron. They aren't that fast and often a lot less reliable as the OS supporting them can be cranky. I still have two xerox paper boxes full of Qbus cards, hardware is easy. Allison From technobug at comcast.net Wed Jun 8 22:05:59 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:05:59 -0700 Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. In-Reply-To: <200506081700.j58H04Hs046092@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506081700.j58H04Hs046092@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 16:01:32 -0400 "Bill Dawson" wrote: > I came across this very interesting, on topic story about > the detection of an anomalous acceleration, the need to > recover data which "exists on a few hundred ancient 7- and > 9-track magnetic tapes", and the imminent scrapping of the > original computers at: > > http://www.planetary.org/news/2005/pioneer_anomaly1_0510.html > [...] The U of Arizona had the imaging experiments on the two spacecraft and a friend worked on the data reduction team. I got the following from him: The tracking stations recorded the data on analog tape and then converted it to digital and transmitted it to JPL which then retransmitted it to Ames (and possibly Goddard) which had spacecraft responsibility. He believed the analog data was kept for some time at the tracking stations (he had some data retransmitted occasionally up to 3 months after reception), but does not know how long. Ames had a program called SOLDPS (sp?) that received the data, recorded it, and divided it up between experimental teams utilizing an IBM 360/90 pair. The UofA got 7-track tapes in fixed block, ASCII, stranger tapes that were taken apart on the local CDC (which only had 7-track tapes). He believed other teams received both 7-track and 9- track tapes written in IBM EBSIDC standard form as require by the local computer systems. The point he made is that each experimenter knew what their data meant and had their own analysis programs - a virtual tower of Babel... He believed that the Pioneers were unique at that time in that they used the received carrier to generate the transmitted carrier. This created an interferometer which, if he remembers correctly, placed the distance to the spacecraft to a meter or so. Tucked away in one of his storage modules he has the Space Craft Bible for those beasts and he promises to pull it out one of these days - should be interesting reading. CRC From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Jun 8 22:22:38 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:22:38 -0500 Subject: Altair 8800b received References: <003901c56c94$1b4f2b20$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <002101c56ca2$7d11d6b0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Richard A. Cini" Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:39 PM > All: > > Today I received the Altair 8800b that I won on eBay last week. I > honestly say that this is the first machine that I'm honestly afraid to plug > in. It was billed as "working but in need of a good cleaning" which is an > understatement. The interior is filled with greasy dust. > > Among the other atrocities buried therein: > > * two bus connectors (out of 10) have destroyed pins > * poor repairs/lifted traces on the display control board > * repairs on the other boards (CPU and two memory boards) in need > of a solder reflow > * the main filter cap was replaced with two smaller (but equivalent > uF) caps which were unsecured, > banging around the inside. These broke one of the card > supports. > * the top cover has three 3/16" holes drilled into it > > I've asked the seller to give me a rundown of the history of the > machine if he knows it. On a positive note, the switches appear to be intact > and the panel graphics seem to be OK. > > Now, I remember someone asked me to look at the CPU board for some > sort of identification. The CPU board has the following designation: "MITS > 8800b CPU REV 0". > > For those who keep track, this unit is labeled SN#5400280K. > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ Just in case you are unfamiliar it is best to take a pair of vise grips and break up the bad S100 connectors. After that you can remove the pins one pin at a time. It is very very bad to heat up the Motherboard and by removing the plastic and just leaving the 100 metal pins that means you need to apply less heat. This even applies if you have a desoldering station. Trying to remove multiple pins at once is near impossible, 100 pins is impossible. Mouser (www.mouser.com) has a great selection of caps if you are looking for a replacement. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Thu Jun 9 00:33:11 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:33:11 +0200 Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes atJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com><001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans> <000f01c56c5b$18c82200$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> Message-ID: <001001c56cb4$b9edce10$2101a8c0@finans> > > > > > ... but I dont have the foggiest idea > > > >whether the data is "decodeable". > > The problem is if the data format is not documented. Agreed, but we dont even _know_ what the data looks like. Therefore again: let's read a tape first to see whatswhat Nico From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Thu Jun 9 01:09:00 2005 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:09:00 +0200 (MEST) Subject: Stuff I grabbed... (Update) Message-ID: <26732.1118297340@www59.gmx.net> Hi all, just to give the current state of affairs: I decided to go after those cables I had missed anyway, and made a couple phone calls and mails to the people responsible for recycling. Indicating that "there has been a mistake at the computing center" brought me in contact with the internal recycling department, where I got an appointment for yesterday morning to come sort through the stuff, which was still there. To get it short: I went, and finally got two HP PSI -> X.21 cables, 5 m each. Issue solved. Now to learn something about X.21, and/or communications standards in general... Any good sources Google won't turn up likely? Additionally, I got four original HP standard serial cables (SubD-9f - SubD25-m) and an Exabyte streamer in an external SCSI enclosure, which even still had a cartridge inside. Even more to learn about... Yours sincerely, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Geschenkt: 3 Monate GMX ProMail gratis + 3 Ausgaben stern gratis ++ Jetzt anmelden & testen ++ http://www.gmx.net/de/go/promail ++ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jun 9 01:33:45 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 01:33:45 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506082343.QAA15584@floodgap.com> References: <200506082343.QAA15584@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <42A7E2C9.6030900@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>Once people discover that writing a Windows app will do just >>>as well for *both* platforms, the need to write a Mac-specific one simply >>>evapourates. >> >>Why is this a bad thing? > > Are you kidding? I already wrote in my previous message that I was serious :-) > Because it makes the Intel Mac another Windows PC, that's why. I, for one, would like a Windows PC that had style, flair, and -- most importantly -- Just Worked(tm). So again, I ask: Why is this a bad thing? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 05:59:19 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:59:19 +0100 Subject: Rescued: HP85, HP86B, 912x drives - score! - Update In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050531152057.009f9d20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Hi list, As you can see in the picture of the HP85 machines, 3 of them are missing their smoked plastic CRT faceplates. Not any more they're not :) I went back to the dumpster and managed to track down all three, and they have now been refitted. Now down to business: I don't actually want to keep any of these machines, I just rescued them because I know there are people who do, and I don't like to see classic computers going to landfill. Is there anyone out there on this list who'd like one/several/one of the disk drive units? If so, please drop me a mail and we'll work something out. Tony: thanks for your invaluable guide on how to sort the disk drive units out! Ed. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jun 9 08:11:39 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 09:11:39 -0400 Subject: Altair 8800b received Message-ID: <0IHT00CY8JB8JCOA@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Altair 8800b received > From: "Randy McLaughlin" > Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 22:22:38 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >From: "Richard A. Cini" >Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:39 PM > > >> All: >> >> Today I received the Altair 8800b that I won on eBay last week. I >> honestly say that this is the first machine that I'm honestly afraid to >plug >> in. It was billed as "working but in need of a good cleaning" which is an >> understatement. The interior is filled with greasy dust. >> >> Among the other atrocities buried therein: >> >> * two bus connectors (out of 10) have destroyed pins >> * poor repairs/lifted traces on the display control board >> * repairs on the other boards (CPU and two memory boards) in need >> of a solder reflow >> * the main filter cap was replaced with two smaller (but equivalent >> uF) caps which were unsecured, >> banging around the inside. These broke one of the card >> supports. >> * the top cover has three 3/16" holes drilled into it >> >> I've asked the seller to give me a rundown of the history of the >> machine if he knows it. On a positive note, the switches appear to be >intact >> and the panel graphics seem to be OK. >> >> Now, I remember someone asked me to look at the CPU board for some >> sort of identification. The CPU board has the following designation: "MITS >> 8800b CPU REV 0". >> >> For those who keep track, this unit is labeled SN#5400280K. >> >> Rich >> >> Rich Cini >> Collector of classic computers >> Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project >> Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >> /************************************************************/ > >Just in case you are unfamiliar it is best to take a pair of vise grips and >break up the bad S100 connectors. After that you can remove the pins one >pin at a time. It is very very bad to heat up the Motherboard and by >removing the plastic and just leaving the 100 metal pins that means you need >to apply less heat. This even applies if you have a desoldering station. >Trying to remove multiple pins at once is near impossible, 100 pins is >impossible. Some are of softer plastic and dont crack. I hate impossible. ;) My solution to pulling bad S100 connectors was a copper bar of the correct dimensions to heat all 100 at the same time. The correct dimension is wider than the solder pins and slotted to recieve the pins. Takes three ungar 47watt elements to heat it evenly and a special Teflon handle for the whole mess. The whole mess sits in a copper trough of solder to keep it tinned. Works very well. Why do that? Back when some of the vendors used tinplate and gold over copper for edge connectors. Some socket vandors also cheaped out using nickle. For those that don't know gold over copper requires a nickle over copper first or you get old that turns greenish black in a while and high resistance contacts. Metal ion migration is a bad thing. The end result was shakewell disease. Shakewell is when to get the system to run you have to pull and reinsert every card before every use or the system crashes. I learned of this after the S100 connectors of the NS* Horizon were contaminated by this. I had to replace all the connectors, and junk out 5 8k and one 16k memory card, and some of the MITS (tinplated connectors) PIO cards I'd used that caused the grief. The only connectors that were ok had the CPU, MDS disk controller and my VDM-1. I've had to do a backplane replacement really nice ATI S100 I'd aquired due to this. plus tossing scrapping the board in it. When I pulled them out the pins of some connectors and most of the boards were greenish black. The only thing more annoying is some brands of IC sockets that loose their spring or also get a surface corrosion, very difficult to troubleshoot the intermittnt signals or worse. Allison From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 9 08:41:39 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:41:39 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... References: <53063.207.145.53.202.1118274962.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <200506090003.RAA16264@floodgap.com> <57711.207.145.53.202.1118276752.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <17064.18195.291401.546495@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Eric" == Eric Smith writes: >> So what was the purpose of your reply, then, if you have no >> interest in either Windows or Mac? In my case, the whole reason I >> went with Mac is to keep Windows off my desktop and because I >> think Apple has superior hardware engineering to a whitebox PC. Eric> Than an average whitebox PC, quite probably. But if you choose Eric> components for your whitebox PC carefully, I think you can get Eric> stuff significantly better than what Apple makes, ... Not likely. Part of the magic is in the packaging. You *cannot* get the cooling & packaging of Mac Mini in a PC of any kind, nor the cooling & packaging of the Power G5. Yes, you could replicate that in a PC *if* you do your own mechanical work. But if you want to use off the shelf building blocks, you can't get there from here. An interesting question is how much value there is in that better cooling & packaging. DEC showed that it's possible to do a much better job than others and lose anyway (the Pro series of PDP-11 based personal computers). But there are obvious benefits to what Apple does even if you never open the box; the Mini is clear just by inspection, and the Power G5 is wonderfully quiet. paul From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 9 09:00:20 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <42A7E2C9.6030900@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Jun 9, 5 01:33:45 am" Message-ID: <200506091400.HAA14268@floodgap.com> > > Because it makes the Intel Mac another Windows PC, that's why. > > I, for one, would like a Windows PC that had style, flair, and -- most > importantly -- Just Worked(tm). So again, I ask: Why is this a bad thing? So why does a Vaio not do it for you? Sony has had their clinkers, but there are some rather nice Vaio systems out there. There is the expectation that someone might be able to cajole Windows to boot on the Intel Mac, and Microsoft might even support it. Phil Schiller even made some allusions to that, although the converse (Mac OS X on a commodity PC) would be explicitly verboten both by EULA and presumably in hardware. However, if Apple became another clone manufacturer, Apple sinks to the level of a Dell or Gateway. So I don't think Apple will ever openly push their Intel Macs as Windows machines, even if it were possible. It would sink them to try to compete on a commodity PC basis. And I'm beginning to see the point of view of people who say that Macs are defined by their operating system, not (so much) by the hardware. If there were an Intel Mac running Windows, it would have superior industrial design and hardware, but it would still be running Windows and subject to all the crap. It wouldn't, as you say, Just Work. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The Devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. -- Shakespeare --------------- From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jun 9 09:39:47 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:39:47 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <42A7E2C9.6030900@oldskool.org> References: <200506082343.QAA15584@floodgap.com> <42A7E2C9.6030900@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200506090939.47902.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 09 June 2005 01:33, Jim Leonard wrote: > I, for one, would like a Windows PC that had style, flair, and -- > most importantly -- Just Worked(tm). So again, I ask: Why is this a > bad thing? Even the best hardware can't fix broken software... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Jun 9 09:44:31 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 10:44:31 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <17064.18195.291401.546495@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <53063.207.145.53.202.1118274962.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <200506090003.RAA16264@floodgap.com> <57711.207.145.53.202.1118276752.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050609095747.052735c8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Paul Koning may have mentioned these words: Damn, Jay... shoot me now. I tried as long as I could to stay out of this... :-/ > >>>>> "Eric" == Eric Smith writes: > > >> So what was the purpose of your reply, then, if you have no > >> interest in either Windows or Mac? In my case, the whole reason I > >> went with Mac is to keep Windows off my desktop and because I > >> think Apple has superior hardware engineering to a whitebox PC. > > Eric> Than an average whitebox PC, quite probably. But if you choose > Eric> components for your whitebox PC carefully, I think you can get > Eric> stuff significantly better than what Apple makes, ... Just ask my Dual Athlon MP -- 4 years old, and my Apple friend begrudgingly admits that the hardware is *more* bulletproof than his. Oh, and don't ask him about *both* of his Dual G5's that he had to send back to Apple for a full refund as they were unstable as get-all. [ He still loves his iMac and iBook, tho. Personally, with the exception that Apple forgot 2 buttons for the pointing device, the laptop impressed me, too. They still don't have the battery life of my Crusoe based laptop, let alone my Model 200! ] >Not likely. Part of the magic is in the packaging. You *cannot* get >the cooling & packaging of Mac Mini in a PC of any kind, nor the >cooling & packaging of the Power G5. Please don't make blanket statements before doing the research. http://www.hushtechnologies.com/start.html They've been around a lot longer than the Mini... There's even a silent PC review site: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article151-page1.html If you want to see something totally disgusting [yet somewhat ontopic] http://www.mini-itx.com/news/67432668/ A retailer specializing in super-quiet PCs, with decent prices: http://www.logicsupply.com/ Oh, and my Shuttle PCs, whilst not completely fanless, are rather quiet. These people made the Mini, even before the Mini: http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT8574944925.html Almost 4 years ago! >Yes, you could replicate that in a PC *if* you do your own mechanical >work. But if you want to use off the shelf building blocks, you can't >get there from here. See above, especially the logicsupply site. Pffft. Google's an amazing thing, eh? Again, apologies to the list & all, but blanket statements bother me. Totally frelling incorrect blanket statements I can't just let pass by. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 9 10:04:33 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050609095747.052735c8@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Jun 9, 5 10:44:31 am" Message-ID: <200506091504.IAA14134@floodgap.com> > Just ask my Dual Athlon MP -- 4 years old, and my Apple friend begrudgingly > admits that the hardware is *more* bulletproof than his. > > Oh, and don't ask him about *both* of his Dual G5's that he had to send > back to Apple for a full refund as they were unstable as get-all. n=1. For another n=1, try my folks, who have had no problems with the dual 2.5GHz G5 they use for video work. Or for an n=2, my husband-and-wife friends who have his'n'hers dual 1.8s. > [ He still loves his iMac and iBook, tho. Personally, with the exception > that Apple forgot 2 buttons for the pointing device, the laptop impressed > me, too. They still don't have the battery life of my Crusoe based laptop, > let alone my Model 200! ] Macs use two button mice just fine, without any drivers. I'm using one right now. Also, your Crusoe laptop is apples to oranges without knowing the specs. Your point is taken about the options for quiet/small form factor PCs, but have you looked inside a mini? Or compared a mini with (spit) a Shuttle? The mini *is* smaller, and IMHO does run cooler and quieter. My friends with Shuttles either complain about heat instability, or put a case cooler in them (defeating the purpose). -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- He who Laughs, Lasts. ------------------------------------------------------ From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 9 10:07:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506091504.IAA14134@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Just ask my Dual Athlon MP -- 4 years old, and my Apple friend begrudgingly > > admits that the hardware is *more* bulletproof than his. > > > > Oh, and don't ask him about *both* of his Dual G5's that he had to send > > back to Apple for a full refund as they were unstable as get-all. > > n=1. For another n=1, try my folks, who have had no problems with the dual > 2.5GHz G5 they use for video work. Or for an n=2, my husband-and-wife friends > who have his'n'hers dual 1.8s. > > > [ He still loves his iMac and iBook, tho. Personally, with the exception > > that Apple forgot 2 buttons for the pointing device, the laptop impressed > > me, too. They still don't have the battery life of my Crusoe based laptop, > > let alone my Model 200! ] > > Macs use two button mice just fine, without any drivers. I'm using one > right now. > > Also, your Crusoe laptop is apples to oranges without knowing the specs. > > Your point is taken about the options for quiet/small form factor PCs, but > have you looked inside a mini? Or compared a mini with (spit) a Shuttle? > The mini *is* smaller, and IMHO does run cooler and quieter. My friends with > Shuttles either complain about heat instability, or put a case cooler in > them (defeating the purpose). Wow, a full-scale old-school BBS-style platform flame war is breaking out. Get the kids so they can see what it was like in the olden days :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Jun 9 10:23:07 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:23:07 +0200 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: <200506091504.IAA14134@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <42A87AFB.10457.162336A@localhost> Am 9 Jun 2005 8:07 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Just ask my Dual Athlon MP -- 4 years old, and my Apple friend begrudgingly > > > admits that the hardware is *more* bulletproof than his. > > > Oh, and don't ask him about *both* of his Dual G5's that he had to send > > > back to Apple for a full refund as they were unstable as get-all. > > n=1. For another n=1, try my folks, who have had no problems with the dual > > 2.5GHz G5 they use for video work. Or for an n=2, my husband-and-wife friends > > who have his'n'hers dual 1.8s. > > > [ He still loves his iMac and iBook, tho. Personally, with the exception > > > that Apple forgot 2 buttons for the pointing device, the laptop impressed > > > me, too. They still don't have the battery life of my Crusoe based laptop, > > > let alone my Model 200! ] > > Macs use two button mice just fine, without any drivers. I'm using one > > right now. > > Also, your Crusoe laptop is apples to oranges without knowing the specs. > > Your point is taken about the options for quiet/small form factor PCs, but > > have you looked inside a mini? Or compared a mini with (spit) a Shuttle? > > The mini *is* smaller, and IMHO does run cooler and quieter. My friends with > > Shuttles either complain about heat instability, or put a case cooler in > > them (defeating the purpose). > Wow, a full-scale old-school BBS-style platform flame war is breaking out. > Get the kids so they can see what it was like in the olden days :) As if you where already online back then! Hans (just to add the personal level - no flame war realy errupts without) *G* -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 9 11:43:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <42A87AFB.10457.162336A@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Hans Franke wrote: > > Wow, a full-scale old-school BBS-style platform flame war is breaking out. > > Get the kids so they can see what it was like in the olden days :) > > As if you where already online back then! I got my first modem in 1985 or so, so yes, I did (ebulliently) engage in flame wars (platform and otherwise :) > (just to add the personal level - no flame war realy errupts without) Screw you, buddy! :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 9 11:56:46 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 12:56:46 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42A874CE.5020806@atarimuseum.com> Wow, after watching the BBS Documentary and now this talk of flame wars, hey lets get a good old fashion Atari 800 vs. C64 flame war going! ;-) Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Hans Franke wrote: > > > >>>Wow, a full-scale old-school BBS-style platform flame war is breaking out. >>>Get the kids so they can see what it was like in the olden days :) >>> >>> >>As if you where already online back then! >> >> > >I got my first modem in 1985 or so, so yes, I did (ebulliently) engage in >flame wars (platform and otherwise :) > > > >>(just to add the personal level - no flame war realy errupts without) >> >> > >Screw you, buddy! :) > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.6 - Release Date: 6/8/2005 From news at computercollector.com Thu Jun 9 11:59:24 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:59:24 -0400 Subject: Mr. Franke! Message-ID: <200506091658.j59GwGIm062517@dewey.classiccmp.org> Nice to see you emerge from the shadows of cctalk. What's up? ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 740 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From news at computercollector.com Thu Jun 9 12:05:39 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:05:39 -0400 Subject: Oops -- RE: Mr. Franke! In-Reply-To: <200506091658.j59GwGIm062517@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200506091704.j59H4PTQ062710@dewey.classiccmp.org> Was supposed to be a private message. Sorry. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Computer Collector Newsletter Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 12:59 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Mr. Franke! Importance: High Nice to see you emerge from the shadows of cctalk. What's up? ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 740 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Jun 9 12:06:20 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:06:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Hans Franke wrote: > >>> Wow, a full-scale old-school BBS-style platform flame war is breaking out. >>> Get the kids so they can see what it was like in the olden days :) >> >> As if you where already online back then! > > I got my first modem in 1985 or so, so yes, I did (ebulliently) engage in > flame wars (platform and otherwise :) > >> (just to add the personal level - no flame war realy errupts without) > > Screw you, buddy! :) You wouldn't like it - he'd just lie there... Cheers John From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Jun 9 12:11:08 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:11:08 +0200 Subject: Mr. Franke! In-Reply-To: <200506091658.j59GwGIm062517@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42A8944C.23526.1C51764@localhost> Am 9 Jun 2005 12:59 meinte Computer Collector Newsletter: > Nice to see you emerge from the shadows of cctalk. not anymore realy following the list. > What's up? Way to much work. Especialy since I try to finish two projects a lot of people are waiting for. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Jun 9 12:12:50 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:12:50 +0200 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: <42A87AFB.10457.162336A@localhost> Message-ID: <42A894B2.32053.1C6A651@localhost> Am 9 Jun 2005 9:43 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Hans Franke wrote: > > > Wow, a full-scale old-school BBS-style platform flame war is breaking out. > > > Get the kids so they can see what it was like in the olden days :) > > As if you where already online back then! > I got my first modem in 1985 or so, so yes, I did (ebulliently) engage in > flame wars (platform and otherwise :) At that time, flame wars where already history, in '85, only under age school kids where trying to recreate that feeling. The avant garde had already moved! > > (just to add the personal level - no flame war realy errupts without) > Screw you, buddy! :) There's always the H-Word! H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 9 12:39:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, John Lawson wrote: > > Screw you, buddy! :) > > You wouldn't like it - he'd just lie there... I don't want to know how you know this, but Hans certainly has some explaining to do. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Jun 9 12:46:13 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 10:46:13 -0700 Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed. References: <200506081700.j58H04Hs046092@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42A88065.CD815CDC@msm.umr.edu> I've been in the archive building where tapes are stored at JPL. There was a problem with a water pipe burst in the past, which some tapes were exposed to. Also, from age, some are having oxide come off the substrate, and are probably unrecoverable quite a long time before this problem was discovered. I don't know of any imminent scrapping of anything there, does anyone have any real data on what that statement means? I am sure that they have equipment that doesn't work, and I am sure from what I've seen in scrap from JPL in the distant (80's) past that things may have been scrapped long before there was a good effort to match computer to tape and do all conservation necessary, but they have an agressive program to move everything to a cd rom type media format, and the have very good conservation efforts on that archive in the future. Jim CRC wrote: From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 9 12:45:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <42A894B2.32053.1C6A651@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Hans Franke wrote: > > > As if you where already online back then! > > > I got my first modem in 1985 or so, so yes, I did (ebulliently) engage in > > flame wars (platform and otherwise :) > > At that time, flame wars where already history, in '85, only under age > school kids where trying to recreate that feeling. The avant garde had > already moved! You old farts don't know what a flame war is. In my day, we took it off the boards and into the streets! We'd even fly halfway across the country just to beat the shit out of some punk who pointed out that writing in all caps was annoying. > > > (just to add the personal level - no flame war realy errupts without) > > > Screw you, buddy! :) > > There's always the H-Word! Hasenpfeffer? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 9 12:56:00 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:56:00 +0100 Subject: Stuff I grabbed... (Update) In-Reply-To: <26732.1118297340@www59.gmx.net> Message-ID: <007e01c56d1c$80791d20$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Arno Kletzander wrote: > To get it short: I went, and finally got two HP PSI -> X.21 > cables, 5 m each. Issue solved. Now to learn something about > X.21, and/or communications standards in general... Any good > sources Google won't turn up likely? If you want to know the details about X.21, the X.21 docs from ITU (previously the CCITT) would be the way to go. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jun 9 13:00:04 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:00:04 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <200506091400.HAA14268@floodgap.com> References: <200506091400.HAA14268@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <42A883A4.70701@mdrconsult.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > And I'm beginning to see the point of view of people who say that Macs > are defined by their operating system, not (so much) by the hardware. If > there were an Intel Mac running Windows, it would have superior industrial > design and hardware, but it would still be running Windows and subject to > all the crap. It wouldn't, as you say, Just Work. I can attest to the flip side of this. I've always been really impressed with Mac hardware and its performance relative to PC equivalents, but the Classic MacOS left me cold. For a lot of reasons I simply didn't have the patience for it. Two months after somebody gave me an eval copy of OS X (v10.1), a G4 became my "daily driver" desktop, even though the Linux sytem I'd been using was much faster overall. Within a few more months, I had fixed that imbalance, too. I have a hard time buying the idea that Intel can trump POWER architecture, but I'm willing to wait & see, and I fervently hope Apple/Intel are working on something distinctly not your mama's PeeCee. The fact remains that if in 2 years, OS X is only available on a rebadged Dell, I'll be running it. Doc From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Jun 9 13:16:39 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:16:39 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: <42A894B2.32053.1C6A651@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050609141357.050a6480@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Hans Franke wrote: > > > Screw you, buddy! :) > > > > There's always the H-Word! > >Hasenpfeffer? My wife raises rabbits... A VCF-H (for Hasenpfeffer) supper nite? ;-) Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 9 13:20:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050609141357.050a6480@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: > >On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Hans Franke wrote: > > > > Screw you, buddy! :) > > > > > > There's always the H-Word! > > > >Hasenpfeffer? > > My wife raises rabbits... A VCF-H (for Hasenpfeffer) supper nite? ;-) Maybe we can arrange to have her cater VCF Midwest? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Jun 9 13:54:12 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:54:12 -0400 Subject: Catering VCF-MW (was: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050609141357.050a6480@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050609144340.051b1ec0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > My wife raises rabbits... A VCF-H (for Hasenpfeffer) supper nite? ;-) > >Maybe we can arrange to have her cater VCF Midwest? :) Ah... no. You don't want her cookin'... believe me. ;^> I'm the cook of the family; altho I have no formal training. I am, however, waiting for my midlife crisis which I feel is coming on very soon, when I quit computers altogether (well, the Wintel crap anyway) and go to culinary school... ;-) Just in case: don't hold your breath... ;-) Find me a kitchen down there and I'll whip up a mean gumbo, tho. ;-) Good news: I have the wife talked into going... with 1 caveat, unforch. I _may_ have some family from *way* out of town stopping by that weekend... still working out the itinerary on that. Should know for sure pretty soon, tho. Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From dieymir at yahoo.es Thu Jun 9 14:03:56 2005 From: dieymir at yahoo.es (=?iso-8859-1?q?Diego=20Rodr=EDguez=20Rodr=EDguez?=) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:03:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Compaq DOS 3.31 Message-ID: <20050609190356.6584.qmail@web25602.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >> I'm looking for a copy of Compaq DOS 3.31 rev. G (circa 1990) >> Anybody has this at hand ?? > I have the Compaq disks that come with a Portable III, I think it's DOS > 3.31. I also have the Compaq diag disk to set the > BIOS in the Portable III and other models. Fine, but Will be 'rev. G'?? DOS 3.31 was released in November 87 and Compaq was using it until 5.0 (they skipped 4.0), AFAIK 'rev. G' was the last iteration (1990), probably an update (somthing like IBM's CSD) was available from compaq but I suppose that they have forgotten this. Anybody knows something about ?? > I need to dupe these disks anyways, I can make a set > for you too. I need to install a 5 1/4 disk in a > modern machine first. There are DOS proggies able to do the job, my favorite is DiskXpress (it even can convert boot disk images to another sizes). I really prefer to use DOS to do the job since Windoze trash the boot record OEM id. > Now the big question.... > Can I still buy 5 1/4 disk blanks? Making a bit of cleaning I've found a bunch of DD 5.25" with junk, they where 320KB formated ... All had bad sectors!! :-( > And do you need 5 1/4 or 3 1/2? OR - can you use a dd > copy (disk image) that will allow you to make your own? Don't worry use 3.5" ones. Thanks a lot. ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Jun 9 14:11:12 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:11:12 +0200 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050609141357.050a6480@mail.30below.com> References: Message-ID: <42A8B070.30827.2330666@localhost> Am 9 Jun 2005 14:16 meinte Roger Merchberger: > Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: > >On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Hans Franke wrote: > > > > Screw you, buddy! :) > > > There's always the H-Word! > >Hasenpfeffer? > My wife raises rabbits... A VCF-H (for Hasenpfeffer) supper nite? ;-) Deal! H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dieymir at yahoo.es Thu Jun 9 14:09:58 2005 From: dieymir at yahoo.es (=?iso-8859-1?q?Diego=20Rodr=EDguez=20Rodr=EDguez?=) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:09:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Compaq DOS 3.31 Message-ID: <20050609190959.7567.qmail@web25603.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >> I'm looking for a copy of Compaq DOS 3.31 rev. G >> (circa 1990) Anybody has this at hand ?? > Just curious: Why do you need this specific revision? Because I think it's the latest one, and probably they fixed lot of errors :-) ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 9 14:19:20 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:19:20 +0000 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1118344760.2113.35.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 23:36 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone have the pinouts of the Nascom 2 keyboard connector handy? > > Yes. I have the Nascom 2 manual in front of me. From waht I can see, the > keybaord came as an assembled unit, and there's no schematic in the > manual for that. But the pinouts of the connector are there, here you are > : > > PL3 (Keyboard) > 1 D0 (this is an input to a tri-state buffer, then onto the Z80 data bus) > 2 +5V > 3 D1 > 4 NMISw/ > 5 D2 > 6 Q5 (this is an output from a latch chip) > 7 D3 > 8 Q2 > 9 D4 > 10 ResetSw/ > 11 D5 > 12 Q0 > 13 D6 > 14 Q1 > 15 D7 > 16 Gnd One oddity with the IDC header on the keyboard PCB itself - it's not numbered in a conventional fashion; pin numbering according to the PCB run from 1-8 down one side and then 9-16 back down the other side (i.e. same as a 16 pin IC). Meanwhile the CPU board keyboard connector (and corresponding schematic) is numbered in a more conventional pattern with odd pins on one side and even on the other. > There is no description of the keyboard interface in the manual, and I > don't feel like battling through the monitor source lising to work out > how it works. Maybe the Q lines are decoded and used to scan the key > matrix in software or something. Well the Nascom 2 keyboard seems to be very similar to the Nascom 1, except that (as others have noted) it has an extra scan row so uses 7 data bits rather than 6. Otherwise the signals seem to be the same, except: 1) VCC is only on pin 16, not 15 and 16 as with the Nascom 1. 2) Pin 8 on the keyboard PCB connects simply to a resistor, the other end of which is connected to VCC. I assume it's supposed to connect to DB7 on the CPU's data bus and allow detection in software of whether a keyboard's present or not... In all it uses 13 out of the 16 pins on the keyboard PCB. Pins between the keyboard and CPU board *do* match up 1-1, it's just a case of ignoring completely the pin numbering on the keyboard PCB! cheers Jules From cb at mythtech.net Thu Jun 9 14:41:39 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:41:39 -0400 Subject: Catering VCF-MW (was: Apple Goes Intel... Message-ID: >Ah... no. You don't want her cookin'... believe me. ;^> >I'm the cook of the family; altho I have no formal training. I am, however, >waiting for my midlife crisis which I feel is coming on very soon, when I >quit computers altogether (well, the Wintel crap anyway) and go to culinary >school... ;-) Ahh... I have been pondering the exact same scenario for a few months now. I've grown to hate computers, and prefer to be cooking, and have been considering quitting and finding a new career (although I don't think I could cook for a living... I think I enjoy it because its an escape activity.... I think I'd rather return to what I went to school for and try to get back into theater or television... maybe start doing voice overs professionally or something). -chris From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Jun 9 15:02:56 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 05 20:02:56 GMT Subject: Apple Goes Intel... Message-ID: <0506092002.AA14399@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Eric Smith wrote: > Extrapolating the trend further, we can expect to see software vendors > push for restrictions and licensing on software development tools, > debuggers, etc. See Richard Stallman's essay "The Right to Read". > When I first read that essay, I thought he was overreacting, but the > trends of the last few years (e.g., the DMCA, other countries enacting > similar laws, the EU trying to adopt software patents despite the > member states' parliaments voting against them, and the media companies > pushing for even stronger laws) have convinced me that he is absolutely > right to be worried. And why are you not doing anything about it? Why have you not yet enlisted in the revolutionary army? Face it, people - the various nation-states that have mutilated the face of Mother Earth by graffitiing it with national borders that serve only to divide people and to pit them against each other are our enemy, the enemy of humanity and the enemy of all life. Their sole function is to impose tyranny on humankind, both direct and indirect. The former is manifest in their "governments" and "laws", or more concretely, in the apparatus of repression, persecution, battery and murder which they call police and military in their "politically correct" speech. The latter is manifest in these "governments" and "laws" granting a license to the other group of criminals against humanity - corporations - to exercise tyranny of their own, and using the Orwellian police/military apparatus to shield those corporate criminals from people's rightful justice (such as a lynching). This tyranny is fundamentally at odds with the inherent rights of every human being on Earth, which are life, liberty, integrity of body and spirit, and realisation of happiness, and it is the duty of every one of us living on the bosom of Mother Gaia to stand up for our mother planet in Her time of need, when all Her sweet soil is trampled on by black souls who have no right to live, much less to rule - it is our duty as members of the human race, which has been entrusted with dominion and care of the above-terranean world, to rise up against the tyranny that is being imposed upon us and upon our planet, and to free the Republic of Terra of these criminals so that the bosom of Mother Gaia, Her sweet soil, can be free once again! This is a call to arms. The tyranny has reached the critical point at which no citizen of Earth has any moral right to sit idle and watch the boot stomp on the human face. Every one of you has a duty to take up arms and declare war against the illegitimate nation-state that illegally occupies the land you live on. People of the world, rise up to be Free! -- Michael Sokolov Starfighter and Chief Philosopher Interplanetary Internationale (business) http://ivan.Harhan.ORG/Internationale/ (personal) http://ivan.Harhan.ORG/~msokolov/ Proletarians of all planets, unite! From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 9 16:05:36 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:05:36 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [GreenKeys] Rock and Roll Teletype 'experts' Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050609160519.04dc5340@mail> >Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:52:03 -0400 (EDT) >From: John Lawson >To: greenkeys at mailman.qth.net >Subject: [GreenKeys] Rock and Roll Teletype 'experts' > > Clever use of Baudot code on an album cover - fascinating information from "experts" on the origins of it - I bet none of us knew that ITU 1 was "...used in Teletype machines in the late 1800s." > > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050609/ap_en_mu/coldplay_album_cover > >Cheers > >John KB6SCO From Tim at rikers.org Thu Jun 9 16:33:11 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:33:11 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [GreenKeys] Rock and Roll Teletype 'experts' In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050609160519.04dc5340@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050609160519.04dc5340@mail> Message-ID: <42A8B597.50701@Rikers.org> So they post the article but not the album cover. Here's an image: http://coldplace.by.ru/IMAGES/XY.jpg The site is completely useless in my browser: http://www.coldplay.com/ anyone have an image of the back cover? -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 9 16:47:03 2005 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:47:03 -0700 Subject: 30 6502 book collection on epay... In-Reply-To: <428261D0.5050207@atarimuseum.com> References: <428261D0.5050207@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <42A8B8D7.5080705@socal.rr.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Anyone who may be interested in a nice collection, at first I thought > the price steep, but when you count that its 30 books, thats not as bad > a deal as it sounds, especially if any of those books may be hard to > find, not my auction btw: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3522&item=5196231351&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW The main trouble is that anybody that might actually want those books, likely already has a dozen or two of them that cost less than a buck. I'm not saying a the person who would pay $400 for them doesn't exist, but they sure weren't on Ebay this week. ;) Also there are several sets of goodies for 6502 people on Ebay, starting at 99 cents (one nice lot was about $150). There aren't many books I still have any interest in finding, mostly the full set of updates to the Adam Osborne little notebook vol III some real devices. From drb at msu.edu Thu Jun 9 17:09:46 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:09:46 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [GreenKeys] Rock and Roll Teletype 'experts' Message-ID: <200506092209.j59M9k8A029416@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Clever use of Baudot code on an album cover - fascinating information > from "experts" on the origins of it - I bet none of us knew that ITU > 1 was "...used in Teletype machines in the late 1800s." > > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050609/ap_en_mu/coldplay_album_cover Never mind the bollo..., er, I mean character set. Or the history. It's the bit patterns. I get "X FIGS 9 6", not "X FIGS & LTRS Y". http://www.coldplay.com/img/squares.gif De From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Jun 9 17:18:03 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:18:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <1118344760.2113.35.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1118344760.2113.35.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <2905.82.152.112.73.1118355483.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > same as a 16 pin IC). Meanwhile the CPU board keyboard connector (and > corresponding schematic) is numbered in a more conventional pattern with > odd pins on one side and even on the other. I thought IC connections were always numbered down one side then back up the other one? I've not seen any that are numbered across the chip? > Well the Nascom 2 keyboard seems to be very similar to the Nascom 1, > except that (as others have noted) it has an extra scan row so uses 7 > data bits rather than 6. I can scan the relevant pages in the hardware manual; I've got the full monty at home so I can bring it back down here with me. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jun 9 17:30:08 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:30:08 -0500 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <2905.82.152.112.73.1118355483.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <1118344760.2113.35.camel@weka.localdomain> <2905.82.152.112.73.1118355483.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200506091730.08633.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 09 June 2005 17:18, Witchy wrote: > > same as a 16 pin IC). Meanwhile the CPU board keyboard connector > > (and corresponding schematic) is numbered in a more conventional > > pattern with odd pins on one side and even on the other. > > I thought IC connections were always numbered down one side then back > up the other one? I've not seen any that are numbered across the > chip? He said that the one connector was numbered 'across' and the other connector, like ICs, is numbered down one side and up the other... Time for new reading glasses maybe? :) /me ducks Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com Thu Jun 9 17:32:23 2005 From: Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com (Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:32:23 EDT Subject: Compaq DOS 3.31 Message-ID: <20.4696a6be.2fda1d77@wmconnect.com> Hi if you 5.25 or 3.5's try this man, Computer News 80 PO Box 50127 Casper, Wyoming 82605-0127 (compnews at trib.com) he should have some. Al DePermentier From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Jun 9 16:23:14 2005 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:23:14 -0500 Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: <200506081621.j58GL9Vv045188@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506081621.j58GL9Vv045188@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 11:21 -0500 6/8/05, bv wrote: >With the "security" they have implemented in the US these days, I would >strongly advise against taking any unique device on a flight there. >There are too many stories of devices being tampered with, dismantled >and ruined by trained monkeys. For all of our critical space-flight hardware (power supplies, plasma instruments, etc.), we put them in well-padded containers and carry them onboard. We draft letters to airport security (and carry duplicates thereof) quoting the NASA contract number and giving contact phone numbers at the SwRI office. In many cases, neither X-rays nor opening the contamination bag is a good idea. With the appropriate groundwork, we have not had any problems (knock on wood) so far. So it is *possible* to carry electronics on planes, under some circumstances. The clever instrument teams make sure their containers don't fit in coach seats, so they have no choice but to go First Class. :-) -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Jun 9 18:20:21 2005 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:20:21 -0500 Subject: (OT) Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes at JPL needed In-Reply-To: <200506081700.j58H04Hr046092@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506081700.j58H04Hr046092@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 6/8/05, Bill Dawson wrote (quoted from a website): >"With the spacecraft now silent, we cannot expect future data, >so we must look to the past. In fact, there are hundreds of >tapes containing data taken before 1987, when the spacecraft >were between 10 and 40 AU from the Sun. This data from the time >the Pioneers were still in the midst of this planetary realm >could be crucial to solving the anomaly. We can expect future data. The New Horizons mission should launch in January 2006 and zip by pluto in July 2015 if all goes well. Of course, it's not a JPL mission, but the data should be equally relevant. Nevertheless, considering the cost/bit of the Pioneer data, if there is any chance of recovering it, serious effort should be made to do so. FWIW, a paper describing the anomalous acceleration is at PHYSICAL REVIEW D, VOLUME 65, 082004 Study of the anomalous acceleration of Pioneer 10 and 11 John D. Anderson,1,* Philip A. Laing,2,? Eunice L. Lau,1,? Anthony S. Liu,3,? Michael Martin Nieto,4,i and Slava G. Turyshev1,? 1Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, California 91109 and I have a .pdf copy of that paper, if anyone is interested (unless, of course, anyone from Physical Review D asks me not to pass it on). -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From KParker at workcover.com Thu Jun 9 18:30:08 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:00:08 +0930 Subject: DEC Station stuff Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C078@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> A good friend of mine, Jason, has been stripping DEC's in San Francisco - he has the following stuff left for anyone who is interested - here is his message below . Please contact thorpejshagadelic.org ++++++++++++++++++++ Free DEC parts available for pick-up in San Francisco. This stuff is small, so I will also ship it if you are willing to pay packing and shipping costs. No international shipping, please. Will also consider delivery to locations in the South Bay or Peninsula (I work in Cupertino). I need to get this stuff out of my attic, and will send it to a raw materials recycler if no one wants it. - LK201 keyboard - LK201-AA keyboard - LK401-AA keyboard - PMAZC-AA TURBOchannel dual-scsi => This is quite a score! It would be nice for a DECstation owner to snag it and verify that it works with NetBSD/pmax! - PMAG-B TURBOchannel frame buffer - DEFTA-FA TURBOchannel FDDI interface ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 9 17:47:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:47:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Simulated disk drive for RT-11? - Sending mail In-Reply-To: <0IHS003O0QWBZH37@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Jun 8, 5 10:57:49 pm Message-ID: > >Those days fooling with the hardware were fun, but now > >that there are emulators that can run about 100 times > >the speed of a PDP-11/73, for an RT-11 software addict > >like myself, the hardware has become much less important. > > Doesn't work for me. Sims are useful but the fastest PC I have > is a 1g celeron. They aren't that fast and often a lot less Nor me. My festest PC is this much-hacked 5170. A PDP11/03 would easily beat said PC (running a PDP11 emulotr). As I have a real 11/44 and 11/45 available,. it's obvious which I'd use. That's apart from the fact that I am primarily a hardware person. I want to be able to connect a logic analyser to the ALU outputs, single-step the microcode, and so on. > reliable as the OS supporting them can be cranky. > > I still have two xerox paper boxes full of Qbus cards, hardware > is easy. Ditto, but Unibus, if you see what I mean. I got a load of Unibus comms stuff in a clearout (DMC11s, DMR11s, KMC11), a DB11 repeater, DW11-B Qbus translator, most of the common-ish serial cards and disk controllers, and so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 9 17:53:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:53:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair 8800b received In-Reply-To: <002101c56ca2$7d11d6b0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> from "Randy McLaughlin" at Jun 8, 5 10:22:38 pm Message-ID: > Just in case you are unfamiliar it is best to take a pair of vise grips and > break up the bad S100 connectors. After that you can remove the pins one Agreed. The backplane is much more valuable than the connectors... In some cases, though, you can remove individual pins by melting the solder and pushing them out.. And then put a new pin, taken from a similar connector, in its place. I've done this on edge connectors, header plugs, etc. Worth doing if the replacement connectors are hard to get. > pin at a time. It is very very bad to heat up the Motherboard and by > removing the plastic and just leaving the 100 metal pins that means you need > to apply less heat. This even applies if you have a desoldering station. > Trying to remove multiple pins at once is near impossible, 100 pins is > impossible. With a good solder sucker, what matters is not how many pins, but how tightly they fit in the holes, especially if the holes are through-plated. If the pins are a tightish fit, you will never get the solder off to free them, you have to pull them one at a time with the solder molten. If they're a fairly loose fit (like IC pins on most boards) you will be able to remove the part intact if you want to. Incidentally, the best way to clear out the holes once the part is removed is to heat the pad from one side with your iron, and suck from the other side with the solder sucker.... I once had to clear out a lot of holes in a memory board like that -- my hand ached quite a bit afterwards (It was a Unibus memory board that could take 128K words of RAM in 4116s, but only 32K words were fitted. I cleaned out the holes for the missing RAMs and the series termination resistors, fitted turned-pin sockets and resistors, and plugged in RAMs...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 9 17:57:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:57:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Stuff I grabbed... (Update) In-Reply-To: <26732.1118297340@www59.gmx.net> from "Arno Kletzander" at Jun 9, 5 08:09:00 am Message-ID: > To get it short: I went, and finally got two HP PSI -> X.21 cables, 5 m > each. Issue solved. Now to learn something about X.21, and/or communications > standards in general... Any good sources Google won't turn up likely? I know nothing about it,and the offiical atandard is likely to be expensive :-( Somewhere I have something called a TAXER, which appears to be a bit error rate tester for an X21 link. It's a rather nice portable instrument with a 64180 processor in the middle of it (got it at a radio rally for not very much...) I also have some kind of comms bridge. It's got a 68K processor IIRC, a floppy drive on the front, and X21, X25 (at RS232 levels) and Ethernet connectors on the back. They're on separate plug-in boards that connect to the main logic board, there's a 48 pin socket on the mainboard associated with each comms card that holds a 8390 ethernet chip for the ethernet interface and a specially-pinned-out (I suspect) COM5025 (?) serial chip for the other 2 interfaces. You've just reminded me to dig this stuff out and have a play... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 9 18:09:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:09:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <1118344760.2113.35.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 9, 5 07:19:20 pm Message-ID: > One oddity with the IDC header on the keyboard PCB itself - it's not > numbered in a conventional fashion; pin numbering according to the PCB > run from 1-8 down one side and then 9-16 back down the other side (i.e. Eeek!!! [Oddest pin numbering I ever saw, on a 50 pin header (2 * 25). 1-24, then 49 down one side, then 50, 25-48 up the other side. That is, like a 48 pin IC with pins 49 and 50 tagged on one end. Not suprising, as that's what it was. It was called the Elmer board connector in an HP150-II. Elmer was one of the custom chips in that machine, it contained the real time clock, baud rate generator, some of the comms handshake line ports, etc. Problem was, HP didn't get it finished in time, so some early machines had a little PCB with normal chips on it. That plugged into that extra connector...] > same as a 16 pin IC). Meanwhile the CPU board keyboard connector (and > corresponding schematic) is numbered in a more conventional pattern with > odd pins on one side and even on the other. Anyone who uses different pin numbering at the 2 ends of a straight-through cable needs to be shown the clue-by-4 :-) > Well the Nascom 2 keyboard seems to be very similar to the Nascom 1, > except that (as others have noted) it has an extra scan row so uses 7 > data bits rather than 6. Alas I don't have a Nascom 1 schematic... > > Otherwise the signals seem to be the same, except: > > 1) VCC is only on pin 16, not 15 and 16 as with the Nascom 1. > > 2) Pin 8 on the keyboard PCB connects simply to a resistor, the other > end of which is connected to VCC. I assume it's supposed to connect to > DB7 on the CPU's data bus and allow detection in software of whether a > keyboard's present or not... It may not even be used at all. The keyboard scan routine, as I said, just ANDs the input data with 0x7f. > > In all it uses 13 out of the 16 pins on the keyboard PCB. Pins between > the keyboard and CPU board *do* match up 1-1, it's just a case of WHich 3 signals are not used? I would guess at Q2 and Q5 and one other. > ignoring completely the pin numbering on the keyboard PCB! > Argh! :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 9 18:01:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:01:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <42A874CE.5020806@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at Jun 9, 5 12:56:46 pm Message-ID: > > Wow, after watching the BBS Documentary and now this talk of flame wars, > hey lets get a good old fashion Atari 800 vs. C64 flame war going! ;-) > You can keep those darn bittyboxes, I'll stick to my Beeb with second processor, thank you very much. (:-), in case you think I am serious) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 9 18:19:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:19:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <2905.82.152.112.73.1118355483.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> from "Witchy" at Jun 9, 5 11:18:03 pm Message-ID: > > > same as a 16 pin IC). Meanwhile the CPU board keyboard connector (and > > corresponding schematic) is numbered in a more conventional pattern with > > odd pins on one side and even on the other. > > I thought IC connections were always numbered down one side then back up > the other one? I've not seen any that are numbered across the chip? Yes, but header plugs rarely are. IC : 1 16 2 15 3 14 ... 8 9 Header 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 15 16 > > > Well the Nascom 2 keyboard seems to be very similar to the Nascom 1, > > except that (as others have noted) it has an extra scan row so uses 7 > > data bits rather than 6. > > I can scan the relevant pages in the hardware manual; I've got the full Does your Nascom 2 manual contain a keyboard schemmatic? I thought mine was complete, but that's one thing that's definitely missing. I do have scheamtics for the mainboard, 16K RAM board, 3A PSU, 3rd party EPROM programmer, etc. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 9 18:59:54 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:59:54 +0000 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1118361594.2113.101.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-10 at 00:01 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Wow, after watching the BBS Documentary and now this talk of flame wars, > > hey lets get a good old fashion Atari 800 vs. C64 flame war going! ;-) > > > > You can keep those darn bittyboxes, I'll stick to my Beeb with second > processor, thank you very much. I suppose the equivalent this side of the pond back in the day would have been C64 versus Sinclair Spectrum; the Beeb was generally too expensive for home use! Of course nowadays if going for an 80's 8-bitter I'd go for a Beeb too*. Actually, I gave all my Sinclair stuff away last year (apart from one 48K machine) and I've never owned a C64 (just a C16 / Vic20 / plus 4 / Amiga)... * current count is about 40 different Acorn machines I think, six or so of which are various flavours of beeb... cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 9 19:18:49 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050609170800.V61046@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Hans Franke wrote: > > > Wow, a full-scale old-school BBS-style platform flame war is breaking out. > > > Get the kids so they can see what it was like in the olden days :) > > As if you where already online back then! > I got my first modem in 1985 or so, so yes, I did (ebulliently) engage in > flame wars (platform and otherwise :) > > (just to add the personal level - no flame war realy errupts without) > Screw you, buddy! :) Ah, the arrogance of youth! D'ya ever see an 026 punch interfaced to an external device? (Gerber "etch-a-sketch" style digitizer) Ever "UNpunch" a hole? By the 1970s, we old farts were struggling with interfacing RS-232 crap, trying to connect selectrics, and dealing with TPC (The Phone Company) wanting to charge extra for "data lines". By the 1980s, computers were being sold in retail stores! Where did all the fun go? ... and it was uphill in BOTH directions! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 9 19:23:27 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:23:27 +0000 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1118363007.2133.116.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-10 at 00:09 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Alas I don't have a Nascom 1 schematic... Well the Nascom 1 *keyboard* schematic is online on a Nascom site along with the rest of the schematics for the Nascom *2*. Which does seem a bit strange, as though maybe the keyboard schematic for the Nascom 2 isn't part of the standard documentation. Not that there appears to be much difference between the two; the Nascom 2 one just has the extra row (and no doubt totally different key matrix) and this keyboard sense line (which as you say probably isn't used by the software anyway). > > In all it uses 13 out of the 16 pins on the keyboard PCB. Pins between > > the keyboard and CPU board *do* match up 1-1, it's just a case of > > WHich 3 signals are not used? I would guess at Q2 and Q5 and one other. Yep, Q2, Q5, and /NMISW (Q0 drives the reset inputs for the keyboard's on-board counter, whilst Q1 provides its clock pulses) cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 9 19:52:19 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <0506092002.AA14399@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0506092002.AA14399@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20050609174921.S61046@shell.lmi.net> Thank you, Michael, for clarifying that Apple's choice to go Intel is NOT an engineering, NOR a marketing decision, but is in reality an intergalactic conspiracy. On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Michael Sokolov wrote: > And why are you not doing anything about it? Why have you not yet > enlisted in the revolutionary army? > > Face it, people - the various nation-states that have mutilated the face > of Mother Earth by graffitiing it with national borders that serve only > to divide people and to pit them against each other are our enemy, the > enemy of humanity and the enemy of all life. Their sole function is to > impose tyranny on humankind, both direct and indirect. The former is > manifest in their "governments" and "laws", or more concretely, in the > apparatus of repression, persecution, battery and murder which they call > police and military in their "politically correct" speech. The latter > is manifest in these "governments" and "laws" granting a license to the > other group of criminals against humanity - corporations - to exercise > tyranny of their own, and using the Orwellian police/military apparatus > to shield those corporate criminals from people's rightful justice (such > as a lynching). > > This tyranny is fundamentally at odds with the inherent rights of every > human being on Earth, which are life, liberty, integrity of body and > spirit, and realisation of happiness, and it is the duty of every one of > us living on the bosom of Mother Gaia to stand up for our mother planet > in Her time of need, when all Her sweet soil is trampled on by black > souls who have no right to live, much less to rule - it is our duty as > members of the human race, which has been entrusted with dominion and > care of the above-terranean world, to rise up against the tyranny that > is being imposed upon us and upon our planet, and to free the Republic > of Terra of these criminals so that the bosom of Mother Gaia, Her sweet > soil, can be free once again! > > This is a call to arms. The tyranny has reached the critical point at > which no citizen of Earth has any moral right to sit idle and watch the > boot stomp on the human face. Every one of you has a duty to take up > arms and declare war against the illegitimate nation-state that > illegally occupies the land you live on. > > People of the world, rise up to be Free! > > -- > Michael Sokolov > Starfighter and Chief Philosopher > Interplanetary Internationale > (business) http://ivan.Harhan.ORG/Internationale/ > (personal) http://ivan.Harhan.ORG/~msokolov/ > > Proletarians of all planets, unite! > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 9 20:08:33 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes atJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. In-Reply-To: <001001c56cb4$b9edce10$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com><001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans> <000f01c56c5b$18c82200$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> <001001c56cb4$b9edce10$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <20050609180002.D64058@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Nico de Jong wrote: > > > > > ... but I dont have the foggiest idea > > > > >whether the data is "decodeable". > > The problem is if the data format is not documented. > Agreed, but we dont even _know_ what the data looks like. Therefore again: > let's read a tape first to see whatswhat > Nico I agree enthusiatically with Nico. Although it MIGHT be difficult or "impossible" to "decode" the data, once the "indecipherable" data has been transferred to current media, then the whole issue of "obsolete, unobtainable hardware" becomes moot. There are a LOT of statements made about "can't get an old computer in order to be able to read it" being made by people who are not making ANY effort to TRY, or even to contact museums/collectors who HAVE those old machines. "There aren't any conputers that can read punch cards anymore", etc. I'm becoming convinced that the "unavailability of old computer" is code for: "the guy who understands this stuff doesn't work here anymore, and we don't WANT to have responsibility for the old data." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 9 20:16:56 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <20050609174921.S61046@shell.lmi.net> References: <0506092002.AA14399@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050609174921.S61046@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <47425.207.145.53.202.1118366216.squirrel@207.145.53.202> > Thank you, Michael, for clarifying that Apple's choice to go Intel > is NOT an engineering, NOR a marketing decision, > but is in reality an intergalactic conspiracy. Virgil: Hippy, you think everything is a conspiracy. Hippy: Everything is. -- The Abyss From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 20:44:22 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:44:22 +0100 Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: References: <200506081621.j58GL9Vv045188@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <26c11a64050609184451baec4c@mail.gmail.com> > For all of our critical space-flight hardware (power supplies, plasma > instruments, etc.), we put them in well-padded containers and carry > them onboard. We draft letters to airport security (and carry > duplicates thereof) quoting the NASA contract number and giving > contact phone numbers at the SwRI office. In many cases, neither > X-rays nor opening the contamination bag is a good idea. With the > appropriate groundwork, we have not had any problems (knock on wood) > so far. > > So it is *possible* to carry electronics on planes, under some circumstances. > > The clever instrument teams make sure their containers don't fit in > coach seats, so they have no choice but to go First Class. :-) > -- > - Mark > 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 > That makes it much easier all Sellam has to do is find a Domesday system, convince them to ship it. Then get a Nasa contract number to make sure it gets there. It might be easier to build his own ;) Dan From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Jun 9 20:55:38 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:55:38 -0500 Subject: Altair 8800b received References: Message-ID: <007401c56d5f$83da7520$ae3cd7d1@randy> From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 5:53 PM >> Just in case you are unfamiliar it is best to take a pair of vise grips >> and >> break up the bad S100 connectors. After that you can remove the pins one > > Agreed. The backplane is much more valuable than the connectors... > > In some cases, though, you can remove individual pins by melting the > solder and pushing them out.. And then put a new pin, taken from a > similar connector, in its place. I've done this on edge connectors, > header plugs, etc. Worth doing if the replacement connectors are hard to > get. > -tony The S100 connectors are available, Todd Fischer just finished checking out the quality of new sockets. Before buying any check with Todd to find out which are best. Imsai plated through the holes on their Motherboards. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Jun 9 21:06:48 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 05 02:06:48 GMT Subject: Apple Goes Intel... Message-ID: <0506100206.AA15139@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Fred Cisin wrote: > Thank you, Michael, for clarifying that Apple's choice to go Intel > is NOT an engineering, NOR a marketing decision, > but is in reality an intergalactic conspiracy. I made my post in response to Eric's comments regarding DRM and Richard Stallman's prophetic "Right to read" story, not in response to Apple's choice to go Intel. I couldn't care less about what CPU Apple uses - that's utterly insignificant on the cosmic scale. Technology changes, but the epic struggle between good and evil, between Light and darkness, and between freedom and tyranny stays the same. MS From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jun 10 04:41:33 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:41:33 +0100 Subject: Fwd: [GreenKeys] Rock and Roll Teletype 'experts' In-Reply-To: <200506092209.j59M9k8A029416@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200506092209.j59M9k8A029416@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <42A9604D.20501@gjcp.net> Dennis Boone wrote: > > Clever use of Baudot code on an album cover - fascinating information > > from "experts" on the origins of it - I bet none of us knew that ITU > > 1 was "...used in Teletype machines in the late 1800s." > > > > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050609/ap_en_mu/coldplay_album_cover > > Never mind the bollo..., er, I mean character set. Or the history. > It's the bit patterns. > > I get "X FIGS 9 6", not "X FIGS & LTRS Y". > > http://www.coldplay.com/img/squares.gif Hmm, what's the little bit in the red strip? Must look at that later... Gordon. From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 10 08:43:33 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:43:33 -0400 Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes atJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com> <001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans> <000f01c56c5b$18c82200$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> <001001c56cb4$b9edce10$2101a8c0@finans> <20050609180002.D64058@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <17065.39173.85006.245874@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Fred" == Fred Cisin writes: Fred> On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Nico de Jong wrote: >> > > > > ... but I dont have the foggiest idea > > > >whether the >> data is "decodeable". > The problem is if the data format is not >> documented. Agreed, but we dont even _know_ what the data looks >> like. Therefore again: let's read a tape first to see whatswhat >> Nico Fred> I agree enthusiatically with Nico. Although it MIGHT be Fred> difficult or "impossible" to "decode" the data, once the Fred> "indecipherable" data has been transferred to current media, Fred> then the whole issue of "obsolete, unobtainable hardware" Fred> becomes moot. True. Then it changes to "are hardware emulation and software binaries available?" The answer will vary depending on what system was used -- for example, it would be (for hardware and OS that is) YES for Cyber, DEC machines. From what I've seen on this list, the answer may not be so positive for the IBM 360 family. (Then again, possibly there a lot could be done with current hardware. After all, the 360 architecture still exists, approximately.) paul From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Fri Jun 10 09:19:58 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:19:58 +0200 Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes atJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com><001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans><000f01c56c5b$18c82200$cf7ba8c0@RANDY><001001c56cb4$b9edce10$2101a8c0@finans><20050609180002.D64058@shell.lmi.net> <17065.39173.85006.245874@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <000601c56dc7$7bed5cc0$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes atJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. > >>>>> "Fred" == Fred Cisin writes: > > Fred> On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Nico de Jong wrote: > >> > > > > ... but I dont have the foggiest idea > > > >whether the > >> data is "decodeable". > The problem is if the data format is not > >> documented. Agreed, but we dont even _know_ what the data looks > >> like. Therefore again: let's read a tape first to see whatswhat > >> Nico > > Fred> I agree enthusiatically with Nico. Although it MIGHT be > Fred> difficult or "impossible" to "decode" the data, once the > Fred> "indecipherable" data has been transferred to current media, > Fred> then the whole issue of "obsolete, unobtainable hardware" > Fred> becomes moot. > > True. Then it changes to "are hardware emulation and software > binaries available?" The answer will vary depending on what system > was used -- for example, it would be (for hardware and OS that is) YES > for Cyber, DEC machines. From what I've seen on this list, the answer > may not be so positive for the IBM 360 family. (Then again, possibly > there a lot could be done with current hardware. After all, the 360 > architecture still exists, approximately.) > The question you pose is probably not relevant. My (mainframe) background is in commercial routines (invoicing, personel, stock, wages, ....) so if I had to rephrase the question, it would be something like "Is there (1) a Cobol (PL/I, RPG, ....) compiler available which is compatible with the source files I have on tape, and (2) does the compiler handle data structures (e.g. COMP-3) in the same way as the original compiler". If so, I wouldnt give a toss about hardware implementations. Binaries alone are probably not enough; you would have unmodifyable programs, which would/could raise problems like Y2K. Were the source available, you could solve the problem, even for old data carriers Nico From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 10 09:28:42 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:28:42 -0400 Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes atJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com> <001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans> <000f01c56c5b$18c82200$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> <001001c56cb4$b9edce10$2101a8c0@finans> <20050609180002.D64058@shell.lmi.net> <17065.39173.85006.245874@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <000601c56dc7$7bed5cc0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <17065.41882.266003.460437@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Nico" == Nico de Jong writes: >> True. Then it changes to "are hardware emulation and software >> binaries available?" The answer will vary depending on what >> system was used -- for example, it would be (for hardware and OS >> that is) YES for Cyber, DEC machines. From what I've seen on this >> list, the answer may not be so positive for the IBM 360 family. >> (Then again, possibly there a lot could be done with current >> hardware. After all, the 360 architecture still exists, >> approximately.) >> Nico> The question you pose is probably not relevant. My (mainframe) Nico> background is in commercial routines (invoicing, personel, Nico> stock, wages, ....) so if I had to rephrase the question, it Nico> would be something like "Is there (1) a Cobol (PL/I, RPG, ....) Nico> compiler available which is compatible with the source files I Nico> have on tape, and (2) does the compiler handle data structures Nico> (e.g. COMP-3) in the same way as the original compiler". If Nico> so, I wouldnt give a toss about hardware Nico> implementations. Binaries alone are probably not enough; you Nico> would have unmodifyable programs, which would/could raise Nico> problems like Y2K. Were the source available, you could solve Nico> the problem, even for old data carriers True. If sources (in a high level language) of the analysis code are available, and appropriate compilers, or the time needed to update the sources as needed, then your options are wide open. If all you have left is program binaries, life gets ugly. The same goes if the language used is something no longer in current use, like Jovial or Algol or Bliss. Then again, if it's scientific crunching stuff, the most likely language is Fortran, in which case compilers aren't an issue. Y2K isn't an issue -- if that breaks things, simply set the system time to 1999. paul From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jun 10 09:42:16 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:42:16 -0500 Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes atJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. In-Reply-To: <17065.41882.266003.460437@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com> <001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans> <000f01c56c5b$18c82200$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> <001001c56cb4$b9edce10$2101a8c0@finans> <20050609180002.D64058@shell.lmi.net> <17065.39173.85006.245874@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <000601c56dc7$7bed5cc0$2101a8c0@finans> <17065.41882.266003.460437@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42A9A6C8.8050504@mdrconsult.com> Paul Koning wrote: > Y2K isn't an issue -- if that breaks things, simply set the system > time to 1999. Or, if you want to be picky with it, most computers not Y2K-compliant will accept either 1988 or 1994. That gives you the correct day-of-week. Doc From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 10 11:23:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <20050609170800.V61046@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Hans Franke wrote: > > > > Wow, a full-scale old-school BBS-style platform flame war is breaking out. > > > > Get the kids so they can see what it was like in the olden days :) > > > As if you where already online back then! > > I got my first modem in 1985 or so, so yes, I did (ebulliently) engage in > > flame wars (platform and otherwise :) > > > (just to add the personal level - no flame war realy errupts without) > > Screw you, buddy! :) > > Ah, the arrogance of youth! > > D'ya ever see an 026 punch interfaced to an external device? (Gerber > "etch-a-sketch" style digitizer) > Ever "UNpunch" a hole? > > By the 1970s, we old farts were struggling with interfacing RS-232 crap, > trying to connect selectrics, and dealing with TPC (The Phone Company) > wanting to charge extra for "data lines". > > By the 1980s, computers were being sold in retail stores! > > Where did all the fun go? > > > ... and it was uphill in BOTH directions! You old farts just complain, complain, complain! You never knew what it was like to have so many computers that you didn't know what to do with them all!! ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 10 11:24:29 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <20050609174921.S61046@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > Thank you, Michael, for clarifying that Apple's choice to go Intel > is NOT an engineering, NOR a marketing decision, > but is in reality an intergalactic conspiracy. I'd honestly rather have Michael for President than anyone currently in Washington. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 10 11:29:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: <26c11a64050609184451baec4c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Dan Williams wrote: > > For all of our critical space-flight hardware (power supplies, plasma > > instruments, etc.), we put them in well-padded containers and carry > > them onboard. We draft letters to airport security (and carry > > duplicates thereof) quoting the NASA contract number and giving > > contact phone numbers at the SwRI office. In many cases, neither > > X-rays nor opening the contamination bag is a good idea. With the > > appropriate groundwork, we have not had any problems (knock on wood) > > so far. > > > > So it is *possible* to carry electronics on planes, under some circumstances. > > > > The clever instrument teams make sure their containers don't fit in > > coach seats, so they have no choice but to go First Class. :-) > > -- > > - Mark > > 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 > > > That makes it much easier all Sellam has to do is find a Domesday > system, convince them to ship it. Then get a Nasa contract number to > make sure it gets there. > It might be easier to build his own ;) I've brought lots of crap on the plane with me since 2001. I posted about my experience of bringing back an old Robotron system from VCF Europa in the spring of 2002 (had to open the box next to the tarmac to ease jittery security). I haven't had really any problems at all in the past couple years (myseriously, really, as you'd think I'd get more scrutiny). I don't get singled out anymore and I've brought somewhat exotic stuff with lots of scary jumbles of wires and electronics onto the plane with me several times in the past couple of years. I don't know whether that's good or bad though. Anyway, fuck the DHS and fuck the TSA (those stealing bastards). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Jun 10 11:35:12 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Thank you, Michael, for clarifying that Apple's choice to go Intel >> is NOT an engineering, NOR a marketing decision, >> but is in reality an intergalactic conspiracy. > > I'd honestly rather have Michael for President than anyone currently in > Washington. Okay that's it - that's just IT!!! I'm moving back to India and take my chances with the traffic and the cows and the mosquitos and ..... Cheers Babu John From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 10 11:31:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <0506100206.AA15139@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Thank you, Michael, for clarifying that Apple's choice to go Intel > > is NOT an engineering, NOR a marketing decision, > > but is in reality an intergalactic conspiracy. > > I made my post in response to Eric's comments regarding DRM and Richard > Stallman's prophetic "Right to read" story, not in response to Apple's > choice to go Intel. > > I couldn't care less about what CPU Apple uses - that's utterly > insignificant on the cosmic scale. Technology changes, but the epic > struggle between good and evil, between Light and darkness, and between > freedom and tyranny stays the same. Which makes you wonder: is one any better than the other? Since they've been around forever, they must be either equally "good" or equally "bad", otherwise one or the other would've disappeared long ago. (If a great explosion is heard in the vicinity of southern California it was most likely Michael's head after he reads this.) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 10 12:10:06 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... Message-ID: <200506101710.KAA07843@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Thank you, Michael, for clarifying that Apple's choice to go Intel >> is NOT an engineering, NOR a marketing decision, >> but is in reality an intergalactic conspiracy. > >I'd honestly rather have Michael for President than anyone currently in >Washington. > Hi I agree with that but he doesn't seem to understand that someone needs to have incentive to make toilet paper. This requires the thing that he hates, contrast. Dwight From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Jun 10 12:33:38 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:33:38 +0100 Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapesatJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. In-Reply-To: <17065.41882.266003.460437@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <001001c56de2$8aa82900$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Paul Koning wrote: > longer in current use, like Jovial or Algol or Bliss. Then In which sense is BLISS not in current use? I know most _new_ stuff that OpenVMS Engineering do is now in C, but there must be plenty of maintenance etc. happening in BLISS! I'm sure I still have an Algol compilr for OpenVMS somewhere. While Algol has probably fallen out of use, I expect that there are still plenty of people who would crawl out of the woodwork to help! I'll leave Jovial for someone else to defend :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Jun 10 12:40:08 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:40:08 -0700 Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapesatJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com><001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans> <000f01c56c5b$18c82200$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> <001001c56cb4$b9edce10$2101a8c0@finans> <20050609180002.D64058@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <42A9D078.B21F3F23@msm.umr.edu> I have met these people and visit with them every year at the JPL open house, and this is most certainly not the case. The data division is very serious about conserving the data, and they would do anything they can to convert it. And there is no one else with the responsibility than them. that is it. They realize if they tried an excuse like this, they would have failed their mission, and they dont want that to happen. In another part of the tour, of JPL Mission control, the highlight for me this year was a display which showed data returns from individual tracked deep space network objects. Each one showed periodic updates. The obvious ones to have up there where MER Opportunity and Spirit, and mars mapper, but the ones I was interested in were Voyager 1 and 2. The display showed updates as we watched, which I was impressed with. In the past, the Pioneer's were tracked, but not worked live, so this was quite interesting to see, live data from those two. Jim > > > I'm becoming convinced that the "unavailability of old computer" is code > for: "the guy who understands this stuff doesn't work here anymore, > and we don't WANT to have responsibility for the old data." From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 10 12:50:08 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:50:08 -0400 Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapesatJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. References: <17065.41882.266003.460437@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <001001c56de2$8aa82900$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <17065.53968.991218.626776@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Antonio" == Antonio Carlini writes: Antonio> Paul Koning wrote: >> longer in current use, like Jovial or Algol or Bliss. Then Antonio> In which sense is BLISS not in current use? I know most Antonio> _new_ stuff that OpenVMS Engineering do is now in C, but Antonio> there must be plenty of maintenance etc. happening in BLISS! Antonio> I'm sure I still have an Algol compilr for OpenVMS Antonio> somewhere. While Algol has probably fallen out of use, I Antonio> expect that there are still plenty of people who would crawl Antonio> out of the woodwork to help! Antonio> I'll leave Jovial for someone else to defend :-) Sure. None of those are completely gone. All of them are languages for which there are few platforms, and (at least for Bliss and Algol) severe portability issues. In Bliss that's by design; in Algol it is because there are lots of incompabile ways to add necessary features -- like I/O -- to an otherwise very portable but impractical language. Then there are "high level" languages like Sympl, or worse yet, Cybil, which work on any machine you might like so long as it's a CDC Cyber 70/170 family member... paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 10 12:51:25 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:51:25 -0400 Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapesatJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com> <001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans> <000f01c56c5b$18c82200$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> <001001c56cb4$b9edce10$2101a8c0@finans> <20050609180002.D64058@shell.lmi.net> <42A9D078.B21F3F23@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <17065.54045.157319.939439@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "jim" == jim stephens writes: jim> I have met these people and visit with them every year at the jim> JPL open house, and this is most certainly not the case. The jim> data division is very serious about conserving the data, and jim> they would do anything they can to convert it. So does that mean the Planetary Society article that started this whole thread was just a fund raising scam? paul From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 10 13:02:18 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:02:18 -0500 Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11tapesatJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. References: <17065.41882.266003.460437@gargle.gargle.HOWL><001001c56de2$8aa82900$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <17065.53968.991218.626776@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <000e01c56de6$8e544440$d13dd7d1@randy> From: "Paul Koning" Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 12:50 PM >>>>>> "Antonio" == Antonio Carlini writes: > > Antonio> Paul Koning wrote: > >> longer in current use, like Jovial or Algol or Bliss. Then > > Antonio> In which sense is BLISS not in current use? I know most > Antonio> _new_ stuff that OpenVMS Engineering do is now in C, but > Antonio> there must be plenty of maintenance etc. happening in BLISS! > > Antonio> I'm sure I still have an Algol compilr for OpenVMS > Antonio> somewhere. While Algol has probably fallen out of use, I > Antonio> expect that there are still plenty of people who would crawl > Antonio> out of the woodwork to help! > > Antonio> I'll leave Jovial for someone else to defend :-) > > Sure. None of those are completely gone. All of them are languages > for which there are few platforms, and (at least for Bliss and Algol) > severe portability issues. In Bliss that's by design; in Algol it is > because there are lots of incompabile ways to add necessary features > -- like I/O -- to an otherwise very portable but impractical > language. > > Then there are "high level" languages like Sympl, or worse yet, Cybil, > which work on any machine you might like so long as it's a CDC Cyber > 70/170 family member... > > paul As for any problems with particular language dialects it has already been pointed out: There is the option of supporting the original hardware via emulation (faster than the original hardware to boot). The original software would have been likely written in Fortran which like any other language written on a particular environment will take some editing to get going but very doable. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 10 13:14:18 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:14:18 -0500 Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapesatJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com><001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans><000f01c56c5b$18c82200$cf7ba8c0@RANDY><001001c56cb4$b9edce10$2101a8c0@finans><20050609180002.D64058@shell.lmi.net><42A9D078.B21F3F23@msm.umr.edu> <17065.54045.157319.939439@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <001701c56de8$3b6a0010$d13dd7d1@randy> From: "Paul Koning" Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 12:51 PM >>>>>> "jim" == jim stephens writes: > > jim> I have met these people and visit with them every year at the > jim> JPL open house, and this is most certainly not the case. The > jim> data division is very serious about conserving the data, and > jim> they would do anything they can to convert it. > > So does that mean the Planetary Society article that started this > whole thread was just a fund raising scam? > > paul I would call scam over stated, I am sure it is a "scheme". Revenue generation is a serious business, everyone has seen pictures of starving children in Africa. This is necessary to get the $ rolling in. They never point out that after administration fees and the "help" of local officials just a tiny percentage helps anyone. If people donated $100,000,000.00 to help with the data recovery who believes that one $0.01 would every get used to recover any of the data, not me. The money would end up on other projects that never get off the ground. That's just the nature of most "charitable" contributions. Personally I donate to charities but I check them out first, being a well known name doesn't guarantee anything. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From drb at msu.edu Fri Jun 10 13:27:36 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:27:36 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [GreenKeys] Rock and Roll Teletype 'experts' Message-ID: <200506101827.j5AIRaoG019990@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Hmm, what's the little bit in the red strip? Must look at that > later... I can't get it to make sense, regardless of which way I interpret colors as punch or no punch, and which order I read the bits. De White=0, Black=1 00001 E T 00000 nul nul 11011 FIGS FIGS 00000 nul nul 11000 9 - 11000 9 - 11001 ? 2 11001 ? 2 11000 9 - 00011 - 9 10111 1 / 10111 1 / 00001 3 5 00001 3 5 00000 nul nul 00000 nul nul 11111 LTRS LTRS 11111 LTRS LTRS 01111 K V 11101 X Q 01011 J G 01011 j G 11111 LTRS LTRS 00011 A O 11000 O A 00000 nul nul 00111 U M 00011 A O 10011 W B 11000 O A White=1, Black=0 11110 V K 11111 LTRS LTRS 00100 SP SP 11111 LTRS LTRS 00111 U M 00111 U M 00110 I N 00110 I N 00111 U M 11100 M U 10111 Q X 10111 Q X 11110 V K 11110 V K 11111 LTRS LTRS 11111 LTRS LTRS 00000 nul nul 00000 nul nul 10000 T E 00010 LF LF 10100 H S 10100 H S 00000 nul nul 11100 M U 00111 U M 11111 LTRS LTRS 11000 O A 11100 M U 01100 N I 00111 U M From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 10 13:28:03 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapesatJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. Message-ID: <200506101828.LAA07862@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > >From: "Paul Koning" >Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 12:51 PM > > >>>>>>> "jim" == jim stephens writes: >> >> jim> I have met these people and visit with them every year at the >> jim> JPL open house, and this is most certainly not the case. The >> jim> data division is very serious about conserving the data, and >> jim> they would do anything they can to convert it. >> >> So does that mean the Planetary Society article that started this >> whole thread was just a fund raising scam? >> >> paul > > >I would call scam over stated, I am sure it is a "scheme". > >Revenue generation is a serious business, everyone has seen pictures of >starving children in Africa. This is necessary to get the $ rolling in. >They never point out that after administration fees and the "help" of local >officials just a tiny percentage helps anyone. > >If people donated $100,000,000.00 to help with the data recovery who >believes that one $0.01 would every get used to recover any of the data, not >me. The money would end up on other projects that never get off the ground. > >That's just the nature of most "charitable" contributions. > >Personally I donate to charities but I check them out first, being a well >known name doesn't guarantee anything. > Hi I would suspect that it is the writer of the article that has simply taken bits and pieces of what was said and made a "STORY" out of it. It wouldn't be the first time. They were most likely looking for more funding but that doesn't make a "STORY". Dwight From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jun 10 13:29:10 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:29:10 -0400 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:31:23 PDT." Message-ID: <200506101829.j5AITALC015046@mwave.heeltoe.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >Which makes you wonder: is one any better than the other? Since they've >been around forever, they must be either equally "good" or equally "bad", >otherwise one or the other would've disappeared long ago. agg. someone hit me with a ball peen hammer for adding to this thread. (heh - I used 026 card punches dammit. to feed a cdc no less. used to be hot at making drum cards. who knew? can you run dos/vs in simulation yet? i miss the 370.) I think the "purist" argument is that the x86 architecture has too much baggage. Certainly most would agree that working in 16 bit mode is often painful. 32 bit mode is better, but the instruction orthogonality is a little off and the register motion is a little off and well, it could use more registers. Most of this comes from it's heritage. They've done a fantastic job keeping it alive but the legacy baggage gets in the way. The PPC architecture is a bit fresher, and more "risc-y". More registers, smoother transition into the 64 bit world, etc.. And, most would say, much easier to program. Plus, there's the whole endian religion. I "go both ways" and like them both but I will say big endian is often easier to deal with and less confusing. But I've written a large number of production software packet routers and so I'm a bit biased in that space. In then end, the comment about cache sizes is probably the most interesting/relivant. IMHO i-cache size is the most important thing. Bursting from memory into L2 is always the bottleneck. I personally think it doesn't matter what cpu apple uses. I would like to see them make pc's - they would probably be more fun to use than most generic pc's. I mean, look at the mini. Is that not one of the coolest machines you've seen in the last 10 years? (but don't get me wrong Mr. Jobs - I'm *still* pissed at you for yelling at me about the HyperDrive! :-) -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jun 10 13:30:22 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:30:22 -0400 Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapesatJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:33:38 BST." <001001c56de2$8aa82900$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <200506101830.j5AIUM3O015496@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Antonio Carlini" wrote: > >I'll leave Jovial for someone else to defend :-) Isn't Jovial used by the FAA in the ATC computers? or has that finally all gone away? -brad From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Jun 10 15:09:44 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:09:44 -0400 Subject: S100 PROM boards Message-ID: All: With my two new machines I want to get a PROM monitor in them so I can start really playing around with them. I have a single Vector RAM/PROM III board, which uses 2704 or 2708 EPROMS. Most of the chips I have are 2732 or larger. Before I go slogging through the manual to try to hammer a 4k chip into a 1k socket, does anyone have any experience making this mod? Alternatively, can someone recommend a good general PROM board that can use larger EPROMS (programming feature not necessary). Thanks. Rich From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jun 10 15:56:12 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:56:12 -0400 Subject: S100 PROM boards Message-ID: <0IHV00CA1ZHPAJQ9@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: S100 PROM boards > From: "Cini, Richard" > Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:09:44 -0400 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > >All: > > > > With my two new machines I want to get a PROM monitor in them so >I can start really playing around with them. I have a single Vector RAM/PROM >III board, which uses 2704 or 2708 EPROMS. Most of the chips I have are 2732 >or larger. > > > > Before I go slogging through the manual to try to hammer a 4k >chip into a 1k socket, does anyone have any experience making this mod? >Alternatively, can someone recommend a good general PROM board that can use >larger EPROMS (programming feature not necessary). I'd build a board, it's fairly trivial. Compared to the mods needed to make a 2708 board take 2732s. There is one easy way and thats to make a header that takes the 2732 and maps the Data/Address/CS-/OE- pins to the 2708 socket along with power and ground. That will allow only using 1k of the 2732 but that may be all you need. the upside is one 2732 can hole 4 1k programs and it's easier to program than 2708. Allison From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Fri Jun 10 16:00:07 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:00:07 +0100 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... References: Message-ID: <00ad01c56dff$74ff3ea0$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 5:35 PM Subject: Re: Apple Goes Intel... > > > On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > >> Thank you, Michael, for clarifying that Apple's choice to go Intel > >> is NOT an engineering, NOR a marketing decision, > >> but is in reality an intergalactic conspiracy. > > > > I'd honestly rather have Michael for President than anyone currently in > > Washington. Oh , hang on , can't you take tony bliar off our hands ? :>} Geoff. From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 10 16:00:59 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:00:59 -0500 Subject: S100 PROM boards References: Message-ID: <000801c56dff$849fa430$e63cd7d1@randy> From: "Cini, Richard" Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 3:09 PM > All: > > > > With my two new machines I want to get a PROM monitor in them > so > I can start really playing around with them. I have a single Vector > RAM/PROM > III board, which uses 2704 or 2708 EPROMS. Most of the chips I have are > 2732 > or larger. > > > > Before I go slogging through the manual to try to hammer a 4k > chip into a 1k socket, does anyone have any experience making this mod? > Alternatively, can someone recommend a good general PROM board that can > use > larger EPROMS (programming feature not necessary). > > > > Thanks. > > > Rich If you are willing to only use 1K it's easy, no changes are required to the board: Start with a 24 pin socket and plug it into the PROM board leaving pins 19 & 21 hanging out, tie these to ground (pin 12 or any convenient spot). Plug the 2732 into the socket with the data in the lower 1K. Please note you can use pins 19 & 21 as extra addressing pins controlled either electronically or via switch for mutilple images. Many options for the "extra" pins are available. A 28 or 32 pin socket can be used for eeproms etc. *** Please note this only allows reading, writing is a whole separate story. I have the source code to several monitors on my site and have access to more. If you ask nicely I'm sure Dave Dunfield will give you a copy of his 1K 8080 monitor. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 16:03:38 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:03:38 -0500 Subject: A classic present - the "Instructo Paper Computer" Message-ID: One of my co-workers just dropped off a fun little thing at my desk - a McGraw-Hill publication from 1979, the "Instructo Paper Computer"... it's like the Bell Labs Cardiac. I'd never heard of the Instructo before. Digging around on the 'net only found this... http://www.computermuseumgroningen.nl/mcgrawhill/ipc.html (is Allard Shaap here on the list?) In case this spawns a CARDIAC thread... start here -> http://www.larkfarm.com/cardiac_answers.htm or here -> http://www.bellsystemmemorial.com/belllabs_kits_cardiac.html Fiber-based computing... big fun! -ethan From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Jun 10 16:21:11 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:21:11 +0100 Subject: Simon relay computer Message-ID: <009101c56e02$53ac06e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> A little while ago, we had a discussion about the Simon Relay Computer, and someone was going to look into scanning the articles, did it ever happen? I have a couple of large ex-radar control units(big box with power transformer and around 70 relays) here that are beginning to be converted........ Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Fri Jun 10 16:41:36 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:41:36 +0100 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment References: <0IFZ00LTFAGJ0L81@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <019201c56e05$3c7639c0$0200a8c0@geoff> > Military field radios are EMP resistant. Ever look at field radios? > They have everything going in or out through connectors, when > connectors are unplugged there are conductive caps placed over > the connector and the cases are all continous conductive including > closeable covers on things like speakers. This is partially to protect > against handeling and environment but also EMP. If "you" a user are > far enough away to survive without ill effects likely those radios > will. Didn't I read somewhere that military radios have an amp or so running in the rf stage as an emp protection ? Or is that old hat now ? Geoff. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 10 16:50:44 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S100 PROM boards Message-ID: <200506102150.OAA07925@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > >From: "Cini, Richard" ---snip--- >> Before I go slogging through the manual to try to hammer a 4k >> chip into a 1k socket, does anyone have any experience making this mod? >> ---snip--- >If you are willing to only use 1K it's easy, no changes are required to the >board: > Hi I'm not sure how you would define removing a power supply lead but I'd call that a change?? Dwight From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 16:54:57 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:54:57 -0500 Subject: S100 PROM boards In-Reply-To: <200506102150.OAA07925@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200506102150.OAA07925@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On 6/10/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >If you are willing to only use 1K it's easy, no changes are required to the > >board: > > I'm not sure how you would define removing a power supply lead > but I'd call that a change?? > Dwight Socket the 2732 with that pin hanging out of the socket. You can even tie it to Vcc or GND with a jumper wire to either pin 12 or pin 24... no need to mod the board, just the 2732. -ethan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 10 17:00:20 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S100 PROM boards Message-ID: <200506102200.PAA07930@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On 6/10/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >If you are willing to only use 1K it's easy, no changes are required to the >> >board: >> >> I'm not sure how you would define removing a power supply lead >> but I'd call that a change?? >> Dwight > >Socket the 2732 with that pin hanging out of the socket. You can even >tie it to Vcc or GND with a jumper wire to either pin 12 or pin 24... >no need to mod the board, just the 2732. > >-ethan > > Hi I'd stack two machine pin sockets, with jumpers and pins removed, but that isn't what was said. Dwight From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 10 17:22:25 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:22:25 -0500 Subject: S100 PROM boards References: <200506102200.PAA07930@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <001a01c56e0a$e49dead0$783dd7d1@randy> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 5:00 PM > >From: "Ethan Dicks" >> >>On 6/10/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>> >If you are willing to only use 1K it's easy, no changes are required to >>> >the >>> >board: >>> >>> I'm not sure how you would define removing a power supply lead >>> but I'd call that a change?? >>> Dwight >> >>Socket the 2732 with that pin hanging out of the socket. You can even >>tie it to Vcc or GND with a jumper wire to either pin 12 or pin 24... >>no need to mod the board, just the 2732. >> >>-ethan >> >> > > Hi > I'd stack two machine pin sockets, with jumpers and > pins removed, but that isn't what was said. > Dwight The instructions I gave had no changes to the board: "Start with a 24 pin socket and plug it into the PROM board leaving pins 19 & 21 hanging out, tie these to ground (pin 12 or any convenient spot)." This merely uses a socket as a daughter card rewiring the connections needed to have a 2732 act as a 2708 in read only mode. The power leads (12V & -5V) on the PROM board are not removed, they are just ignored. The board stays original, the 2732 is not modified and just by removing the modified stacked socket everything is restored. No matter what type of collector you are this shouldn't ruffle any feathers, the board is made operational with newer components without modifying a collectable card. As I also pointed out using this routine you can replace a 2708 or better with anything in the same family which includes Flash ROM's and EEPROM's. For those unfamiliar the 2704/2708 pinout are the standard still used today with only minor changes related to power supply and programming. These "minor" changes make it easy to use newer parts for the read only portion, even the programming can be handled with a little effort. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 10 17:33:07 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes atJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. In-Reply-To: <17065.39173.85006.245874@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > True. Then it changes to "are hardware emulation and software > binaries available?" The answer will vary depending on what system > was used -- for example, it would be (for hardware and OS that is) YES > for Cyber, DEC machines. From what I've seen on this list, the answer > may not be so positive for the IBM 360 family. Hercules! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 10 17:43:24 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S100 PROM boards Message-ID: <200506102243.PAA07941@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > > >"Start with a 24 pin socket and plug it into the PROM board leaving pins 19 >& 21 hanging out, tie these to ground (pin 12 or any convenient spot)." Hi Apologies. I didn't see that part clearly. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 10 18:02:25 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes atJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. In-Reply-To: <000601c56dc7$7bed5cc0$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com><001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans><000f01c56c5b$18c82200$cf7ba8c0@RANDY><001001c56cb4$b9edce10$2101a8c0@finans><20050609180002.D64058@shell.lmi.net> <17065.39173.85006.245874@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <000601c56dc7$7bed5cc0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <20050610155638.G87307@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Nico de Jong wrote: > > Fred> I agree enthusiatically with Nico. Although it MIGHT be > > Fred> difficult or "impossible" to "decode" the data, once the > > Fred> "indecipherable" data has been transferred to current media, > > Fred> then the whole issue of "obsolete, unobtainable hardware" > > Fred> becomes moot. > > . . . > > True. Then it changes to "are hardware emulation and software > > binaries available?" The answer will vary depending on what system > > The question you pose is probably not relevant. My (mainframe) background is > in commercial routines (invoicing, personel, stock, wages, ....) so if I had > to rephrase the question, it would be something like "Is there (1) a Cobol > (PL/I, RPG, ....) compiler available which is compatible with the source > files I have on tape, and (2) does the compiler handle data structures (e.g. > COMP-3) in the same way as the original compiler". Even more moot. Most of the work that we were doing at NASA was in FORTRAN. A FORTRAN compiler that runs on current machines is NOT necessary. If the source code is available, then it can be used, NOT for compiling, but for determining the structure of the data. If the source code is NOT available, then the structure of the data must be manually determined. After that, new software can be written to work with it. A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language. From dhbarr at gmail.com Fri Jun 10 18:04:54 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:04:54 -0500 Subject: A classic present - the "Instructo Paper Computer" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/10/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > One of my co-workers just dropped off a fun little thing at my desk - > a McGraw-Hill publication from 1979, the "Instructo Paper Computer"... > it's like the Bell Labs Cardiac. I'd never heard of the Instructo > before. Digging around on the 'net only found this... > http://www.computermuseumgroningen.nl/mcgrawhill/ipc.html (is Allard > Shaap here on the list?) > > In case this spawns a CARDIAC thread... start here -> > http://www.larkfarm.com/cardiac_answers.htm I should like to have a reprint done of one or both of these for use in my introductory computing classes. Students are made to simulate a modern system, and these paper models could be of great utility both in the historical overview and some of the introductory sections. -dhbarr. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 10 18:05:22 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes atJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. In-Reply-To: <42A9A6C8.8050504@mdrconsult.com> References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com> <001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans> <000f01c56c5b$18c82200$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> <001001c56cb4$b9edce10$2101a8c0@finans> <20050609180002.D64058@shell.lmi.net> <17065.39173.85006.245874@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <000601c56dc7$7bed5cc0$2101a8c0@finans> <17065.41882.266003.460437@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42A9A6C8.8050504@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20050610160419.R87307@shell.lmi.net> > Paul Koning wrote: > > Y2K isn't an issue -- if that breaks things, simply set the system > > time to 1999. > On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > Or, if you want to be picky with it, most computers not Y2K-compliant > will accept either 1988 or 1994. That gives you the correct day-of-week. Right concept, but 1988 is a leap year, and neither 1994 nor 2005 are. From news at computercollector.com Fri Jun 10 18:10:31 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:10:31 -0400 Subject: A classic present - the "Instructo Paper Computer" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200506102310.j5ANACvC079984@dewey.classiccmp.org> There is also a paper Engima: http://www.mckoss.com/Crypto/Enigma.htm -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 5:04 PM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: A classic present - the "Instructo Paper Computer" One of my co-workers just dropped off a fun little thing at my desk - a McGraw-Hill publication from 1979, the "Instructo Paper Computer"... it's like the Bell Labs Cardiac. I'd never heard of the Instructo before. Digging around on the 'net only found this... http://www.computermuseumgroningen.nl/mcgrawhill/ipc.html (is Allard Shaap here on the list?) In case this spawns a CARDIAC thread... start here -> http://www.larkfarm.com/cardiac_answers.htm or here -> http://www.bellsystemmemorial.com/belllabs_kits_cardiac.html Fiber-based computing... big fun! -ethan From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jun 10 18:23:19 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:23:19 -0400 Subject: S100 PROM boards Message-ID: <20050610232317.BIPV5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> With my two new machines I want to get a PROM monitor in them so >>I can start really playing around with them. I have a single Vector RAM/PROM >>III board, which uses 2704 or 2708 EPROMS. Most of the chips I have are 2732 >>or larger. >> >> Before I go slogging through the manual to try to hammer a 4k >>chip into a 1k socket, does anyone have any experience making this mod? >>Alternatively, can someone recommend a good general PROM board that can use >>larger EPROMS (programming feature not necessary). > > >I'd build a board, it's fairly trivial. Compared to the mods needed to >make a 2708 board take 2732s. There is one easy way and thats to make >a header that takes the 2732 and maps the Data/Address/CS-/OE- pins >to the 2708 socket along with power and ground. That will allow only >using 1k of the 2732 but that may be all you need. the upside is one >2732 can hole 4 1k programs and it's easier to program than 2708. I agree with Allison, It's pretty easy to make a board. Another option might be to make a daughter card which not only adapts the 2732 (or bigger) to the 2708 socket, but also takes a couple of extra address lines and the select via taps to other locations on the board. I don't have the schematic for this particular board in front of me, however if it takes multiple 2708 EPROMs, the there likely is a decoder which has a select generated by the board address range, and the next few higher address lines to determine which EPROM device to enable. By ignoring the chip select at the 2708 socket, and taking it from the input to the decoder along with a couple of extra address lines, then you can fit a larger device on a small daughter board without having to hack the board (worst you will have to do is tack onto some signals). I have a couple of different 8080 monitors that might be of use to you. I have a <500 byte very basic monitor, which has the advantage that it requires NO RAM (not even for a stack) - it provides basic dump/edit memory, execute and loop read/write commands (handy for hardware debugging). I also have a 3.5K full 8080 debug monitor, which features memory dump/disassemble/edit/fill/copy, register dump/edit, In/Out, execute, single-step, breakpoints and a bunch of other goodies. I'll be happy to send them to you. I can also give you LOTS of other original 8080 CODE (Disk OS, BASIC, editor, assembler etc.) Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 10 18:23:31 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes atJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. In-Reply-To: <20050610160419.R87307@shell.lmi.net> References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com> <001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans> <000f01c56c5b$18c82200$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> <001001c56cb4$b9edce10$2101a8c0@finans> <20050609180002.D64058@shell.lmi.net> <17065.39173.85006.245874@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <000601c56dc7$7bed5cc0$2101a8c0@finans> <17065.41882.266003.460437@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42A9A6C8.8050504@mdrconsult.com> <20050610160419.R87307@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <55138.207.145.53.202.1118445811.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Paul Koning wrote: > Y2K isn't an issue -- if that breaks things, simply set the system > time to 1999. Doc Shipley wrote: > Or, if you want to be picky with it, most computers not Y2K-compliant > will accept either 1988 or 1994. That gives you the correct day-of-week. Fred wrote: > Right concept, but 1988 is a leap year, and neither 1994 nor 2005 are. >From 1901 through 2099, the calendar repeats every 28 years. If you can set the system clock to 1977, you'll have the correct day of the week and leap years for another 22 years, after which you can set it back to 1977 again. Some machines, though, are too "smart" to let you set the year to 1977, but yet not smart enough to handle Y2K correctly. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 10 18:23:54 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050610162057.U88863@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > You old farts just complain, complain, complain! You never knew what it > was like to have so many computers that you didn't know what to do with > them all!! > ;) Yes, I did find out. Thank you very much for helping me with that problem. "Three moves == one fire, but is a LOT more work." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 10 18:24:14 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes atJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. Message-ID: <200506102324.QAA07988@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language. And some can even write COBAL in any language. We have a few working here :( Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 10 18:25:02 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050610162416.J88863@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'd honestly rather have Michael for President than anyone currently in > Washington. Michael and Sellam as the ticket?? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 10 18:35:05 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:35:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <1118363007.2133.116.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 10, 5 00:23:27 am Message-ID: > > On Fri, 2005-06-10 at 00:09 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Alas I don't have a Nascom 1 schematic... > > Well the Nascom 1 *keyboard* schematic is online on a Nascom site along I've now taken a look at that.... Initially I was puzzled. It makes no sense at all if the keys are simple switches.... Tell me (as I can't get to my Nascom at the moment), how many connections does each key have? My guess is 4. Moreover, I will guess that there are 2 pairs of pins that are dead shorts to each other, but one pair is insulated from the other. And that this doesn't change if you press the key. My guess (again) is that these keys are actually magnetic. There are 2 loops of wire trough a little magnetic torroid core. Pressing a key brings a magnet against the core, changing its magnetic properties, anf thus the coupling between the loops. Each of the lines on the matrix in the schematic is a set of these loops in series. Horizontal lines are the sense loops, vertical lines are the drive loops. That would explain the cryptic comment on the schematics that the order of keys in the matrix may not be the electrical order on the PCB. Now for an amazing coincidence (if my guess is right). As you probably know, I've had an HP9845B on my bench for the last few months [1]. Last weekend I finally finished working out the rear section with the processor and memory boards, the PSU, etc, and started on the keyboard assembly. Tge keyboard is exactly as I've just described. The electronics is somewhat different to the Nascom 1 keyboard, but the 'switches'[2] may well be the same. Hmmm... [1] My advice to anyone with a non-working 9845 is to find some other mug to fix it. If you're not that easily put off, I will try to answer hardware-related questions. [2] Most of them have 4 pins, as described. The arrow keys have 6, one drive loop and 2 sense loops. The reason is that said keys contain 2 core as they kave 3 postions -- up, pressed gently (single cursor movement) and pressed hard (repeated cursor movement). Well, it _is_ an HP... > Not that there appears to be much difference between the two; the Nascom > 2 one just has the extra row (and no doubt totally different key matrix) > and this keyboard sense line (which as you say probably isn't used by > the software anyway). It can't be a keyboard detect line. It goes to a TTL input, which would float high anyway. It was probably easier to use an 8 bit buffer on the CPU board, and there was no good reason not to wire all 8 inputs to the keyboard connector. > > > > In all it uses 13 out of the 16 pins on the keyboard PCB. Pins between > > > the keyboard and CPU board *do* match up 1-1, it's just a case of > > > > WHich 3 signals are not used? I would guess at Q2 and Q5 and one other. > > Yep, Q2, Q5, and /NMISW The first 2 could be used as general-purpose outputs... NMISQ/ is somewahat like the reset input, but it produces an NMI (Duh...) I wondered if it was used for the break key or something, Apparently not. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 10 18:42:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:42:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 10, 5 09:24:29 am Message-ID: > I'd honestly rather have Michael for President than anyone currently in > Washington. I'll go further. I'd rather have any of the people here as Prime Minister/President/whatever than any of the crowd currently in the goverment. The reason is simple. From what I've seen, people here are honest. I may not agree with what they say, but at least they can be trusted. Which is more than I can say for most politicians. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 10 18:48:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:48:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: S100 PROM boards In-Reply-To: from "Cini, Richard" at Jun 10, 5 04:09:44 pm Message-ID: > > All: > > > > With my two new machines I want to get a PROM monitor in them so > I can start really playing around with them. I have a single Vector RAM/PROM > III board, which uses 2704 or 2708 EPROMS. Most of the chips I have are 2732 > or larger. > > > > Before I go slogging through the manual to try to hammer a 4k > chip into a 1k socket, does anyone have any experience making this mod? It's not that hard to do (I've done it on other boards). The main thing to watch for is that the 2708 used 3 supply rails (+5, -5, +12), the later EPROMs are single-supply. IF you don't disconnect the -5 and +12 rails, you'll ruin your 2732... Most of the pins match up (the address and data pins, for example). It's just a matter of fiddling about 4 pins between pin 18 and 21 IIRC. You should probanly tie the A10 and A11 pins of your 2732 either high or low, and burn the ROM image into the right quarter of the chip. It's fairly easy, using a bit of stripboard, a couple of header plugs, and a DIL socket, to make up an adapter board to do this without modifying the original PCB. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 10 19:16:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <20050610162416.J88863@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I'd honestly rather have Michael for President than anyone currently in > > Washington. > > Michael and Sellam as the ticket?? If I did run for office then I'd have to start despising myself. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Fri Jun 10 19:29:51 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:29:51 -0400 Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes atJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. In-Reply-To: <20050610160419.R87307@shell.lmi.net> References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com> <001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans> <000f01c56c5b$18c82200$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> <001001c56cb4$b9edce10$2101a8c0@finans> <20050609180002.D64058@shell.lmi.net> <17065.39173.85006.245874@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <000601c56dc7$7bed5cc0$2101a8c0@finans> <17065.41882.266003.460437@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42A9A6C8.8050504@mdrconsult.com> <20050610160419.R87307@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <42AA307F.9020208@compsys.to> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>Paul Koning wrote: >> >>>Y2K isn't an issue -- if that breaks things, simply set the system >>>time to 1999. >>> >>On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > >>Or, if you want to be picky with it, most computers not Y2K-compliant >>will accept either 1988 or 1994. That gives you the correct day-of-week. >> >Right concept, but 1988 is a leap year, and neither 1994 nor 2005 are. > Jerome Fine replies: Concept is correct, but again the implementation is a bit different. I think the rule is to subtract 28 years. I can't remember if the 28 is correct, but a test case provided the same day of the week. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From tomj at wps.com Fri Jun 10 18:59:37 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FORTRAN was Re: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes atJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. In-Reply-To: <20050610155638.G87307@shell.lmi.net> References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com><001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans><000f01c56c5b$18c82200$cf7ba8c0@RANDY><001001c56cb4$b9edce10$2101a8c0@finans><20050609180002.D64058@shell.lmi.net> <17065.39173.85006.245874@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <000601c56dc7$7bed5cc0$2101a8c0@finans> <20050610155638.G87307@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050610165551.T1396@localhost> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language. WHAT WE NEED IS A MOST-FORTRAN-LIKE PROGRAMMING CONTEST. LIKE THE OBFUSCATED C CONTEST. FORTRAN IN PERL, FORTRAN IN C, FORTRAN IN PYTHON >shudder< FORTRAN IN JAVA. FORTRAN IV OR EARLIER, NONE OF THAT HIPPY FORTRAN77 ANSI SHIT. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 10 21:41:56 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:41:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PC RT boards Message-ID: I recently got a bunch of tower RTs (6150s, I think), and after putting together a good one, I have a few extra parts. (3) 61X6811 Ethernet Cards (1) 08F3149 Extended ESDI Adapter (2) 00F2353 Mystery Adapter Cheap! Cheap! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 10 22:38:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stardent 19" workstation monitor Message-ID: I have a monitor for a Stardent workstation. It's a re-badge Sony, model number 130-0001-01. Free for pickup, or 1.2 * cost of shipping to recoup time and trouble if you want it shipped. Please respond soon if you are interested as it will be going off for scrap in a week if there are no takers. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From river at zip.com.au Sat Jun 11 02:07:13 2005 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:07:13 +1000 Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board Info Message-ID: <004501c56e54$323d17e0$cb2a083d@river> Hi, I've got an old MITS 8800B CPU (Rev 0) board. It's in a pretty sad state and missing some chips and most of the voltage regulation components. Although I've seen a few pics on the net of this board, none are clear enough to read the chips. If anyone has one of these boards can you pls tell me what chip D, F and K are. I think D is an 8216, and F is an 8224 clock chip, but would like confirmation. A circuit diagram would be brilliant, if anyone has one. I'd like to get this poor old board looking nice and running. rgds river From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jun 11 04:47:50 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 05:47:50 -0400 Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board Info Message-ID: <20050611094750.INHN5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 17:07 11/06/2005 +1000, you wrote: >Hi, > >I've got an old MITS 8800B CPU (Rev 0) board. It's in a pretty sad state and >missing some chips and most of the voltage regulation components. Although I've >seen a few pics on the net of this board, none are clear enough to read the >chips. > >If anyone has one of these boards can you pls tell me what chip D, F and K are. >I think D is an 8216, and F is an 8224 clock chip, but would like confirmation. >A circuit diagram would be brilliant, if anyone has one. D: 8216 F: 8224 K: 8212 Rich Cini has a pile of Altair 8800B documentation on his site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Look under "Altair 8800 Emulation", then "Technical Links". You could also try Howard Hart's site: http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals You may have to do a bit of digging, the 8800B CPU info may be buried in the 8800B system documentation. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Jun 11 08:31:52 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:31:52 -0400 Subject: Stardent 19" workstation monitor References: Message-ID: <000301c56e89$eed21f10$0100a8c0@screamer> I also have one of these, available for free, East Coast, local pickup only. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 11:38 PM Subject: Stardent 19" workstation monitor > > I have a monitor for a Stardent workstation. It's a re-badge Sony, model > number 130-0001-01. > > Free for pickup, or 1.2 * cost of shipping to recoup time and trouble if > you want it shipped. > > Please respond soon if you are interested as it will be going off for > scrap in a week if there are no takers. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Jun 11 10:49:41 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:49:41 -0500 Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board Info References: <20050611094750.INHN5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <002a01c56e9d$31eec6a0$4a92d6d1@randy> From: "Dave Dunfield" Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 4:47 AM > At 17:07 11/06/2005 +1000, you wrote: >>Hi, >> >>I've got an old MITS 8800B CPU (Rev 0) board. It's in a pretty sad state >>and >>missing some chips and most of the voltage regulation components. Although >>I've >>seen a few pics on the net of this board, none are clear enough to read >>the >>chips. >> >>If anyone has one of these boards can you pls tell me what chip D, F and K >>are. >>I think D is an 8216, and F is an 8224 clock chip, but would like >>confirmation. >>A circuit diagram would be brilliant, if anyone has one. > > D: 8216 > F: 8224 > K: 8212 Jameco sells them: www.jameco.com > Rich Cini has a pile of Altair 8800B documentation on his site: > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > Look under "Altair 8800 Emulation", then "Technical Links". > > You could also try Howard Hart's site: > http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals > > You may have to do a bit of digging, the 8800B CPU info may > be buried in the 8800B system documentation. > > Regards, > Dave > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Jun 11 12:21:50 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:21:50 -0700 Subject: Tom Jennings on History channel Message-ID: <42AB1DAD.AD4FF1BE@msm.umr.edu> Gremlin collector on Heavy Metal show about building up an AMC Pacer nd AMC Gremlin. The show missed it though, since the MC Pacer was originally a possible candidate for a rotary engine that was replaced by a 6 cylinder for road. If they had refitted the Pacer with a triced out 13B they would hav ehad a better show if they had\ been racing Pacer vs something with 300 hp. sorry for off topic, reply to me Jim From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 11 16:00:20 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:00:20 +0000 Subject: Stardent 19" workstation monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1118523620.5422.6.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-10 at 20:38 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I have a monitor for a Stardent workstation. It's a re-badge Sony, model > number 130-0001-01. Silly question, but what does a Stardent workstation consist of? We've got a couple of such displays, but I've not seen any kind of CPU to go with them - I'd always assumed they were in the game of rebadging displays for the workstation market. Didn't realise they were part of a complete machine... I'm sure we don't have any bits to go with them, but if anyone has an image of what I'm supposed to be looking for, shout! :) cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 11 16:46:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stardent 19" workstation monitor In-Reply-To: <1118523620.5422.6.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Jun 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Fri, 2005-06-10 at 20:38 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I have a monitor for a Stardent workstation. It's a re-badge Sony, model > > number 130-0001-01. > > Silly question, but what does a Stardent workstation consist of? We've > got a couple of such displays, but I've not seen any kind of CPU to go > with them - I'd always assumed they were in the game of rebadging > displays for the workstation market. Didn't realise they were part of a > complete machine... I certainly have no idea. I know I just have this monitor and I'm guessing it goes to a workstation, and am hoping someone can use it ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From menadeau at comcast.net Sat Jun 11 17:34:10 2005 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:34:10 -0400 Subject: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? References: <200506061940.j56JeXo4013878@dewey.classiccmp.org><00e501c56ad4$d32b52d0$11406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <00d601c56ed5$b1d171f0$0c01a8c0@Mike> > Just my recollection but, > > I've never heard of the Coco3 being called a TRS-80. Tandy Color Computer 3 The original CoCo was the Tandy/Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer "Radio Shack" was dropped from the name for the CoCos 2 and 3. This information comes from original Tandy press releases. --Mike > > I think some or all of the Coco2s were called TRS-80s. > > All of the Coco 1s (including some white ones) were marketed as TRS-80. > > At that time I didn't really hear "Tandy" used much. Perhaps it was > used for the TDP-100. > > All I recall for the coco 1 was TRS-80 Color Computer or Radio Shack > TRS-80 Color Computer. > > I guess it would be good enough to see what it says on the outside of > the box or on the bottom of the unit. > > -- John. > > From menadeau at comcast.net Sat Jun 11 17:37:52 2005 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:37:52 -0400 Subject: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? References: <200506061940.j56JeXo4013878@dewey.classiccmp.org><00e501c56ad4$d32b52d0$11406b43@66067007> <57565.207.145.53.202.1118109793.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <012201c56ed6$363496c0$0c01a8c0@Mike> > John wrote: > > All of the Coco 1s (including some white ones) were marketed as TRS-80. There was a little-known transitional model called the TRS-80 Color Computer 64K between the original CoCo and the CoCo 2. Few were made, and some of them had a white case in the original CoCo form. You can tell this model by a 64K emblem on the top of the CPU unit. > > Are you sure there were any while Coco 1s? I thought the color change > arrived with the Coco 2. > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jun 11 17:38:30 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:38:30 -0400 Subject: Tom Jennings on History channel In-Reply-To: <42AB1DAD.AD4FF1BE@msm.umr.edu> References: <42AB1DAD.AD4FF1BE@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <42AB67E6.5080102@atarimuseum.com> Nothing smoother then a rotary rocket! (12a's and 13b's) I owned 5 RX-7's... loved'em all :-) jim stephens wrote: >Gremlin collector on Heavy Metal show about building up an AMC Pacer nd >AMC Gremlin. > >The show missed it though, since the MC Pacer was originally a possible >candidate >for a rotary engine that was replaced by a 6 cylinder for road. If they >had refitted >the Pacer with a triced out 13B they would hav ehad a better show if >they had\ >been racing Pacer vs something with 300 hp. > >sorry for off topic, reply to me >Jim > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.8 - Release Date: 6/11/2005 From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Jun 11 18:09:00 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:09:00 +0100 Subject: Tom Jennings on History channel In-Reply-To: <42AB67E6.5080102@atarimuseum.com> References: <42AB1DAD.AD4FF1BE@msm.umr.edu> <42AB67E6.5080102@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <42AB6F0C.9090108@gjcp.net> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Nothing smoother then a rotary rocket! (12a's and 13b's) I owned 5 > RX-7's... loved'em all :-) > Always wanted a Citro?n GZ Birotor myself... Of course, I could get a GS with a toasted engine and fit an Ro80 lump. Now what I *really* would love is a CX fitted with the three-rotor 180bhp engine that was supposedly under development! Gordon > > jim stephens wrote: > >> Gremlin collector on Heavy Metal show about building up an AMC Pacer nd >> AMC Gremlin. >> >> The show missed it though, since the MC Pacer was originally a possible >> candidate >> for a rotary engine that was replaced by a 6 cylinder for road. If they >> had refitted >> the Pacer with a triced out 13B they would hav ehad a better show if >> they had\ >> been racing Pacer vs something with 300 hp. >> >> sorry for off topic, reply to me >> Jim >> >> >> >> >> > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Jun 11 18:21:15 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:21:15 -0500 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question Message-ID: <42AB71EB.40600@mdrconsult.com> Would a DSHD floppy drive with a DSHD disk in it look like a 5.25" DSQD drive to an Altos 580? IOW, could I just plug it in and go? Doc From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jun 11 18:31:49 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 05 23:31:49 GMT Subject: Progress on my migration from VT320 to Classic X11 Message-ID: <0506112331.AA18336@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, I have just completed another kilometre-post on my road of migration from a VT320 to a Classic X11 environment. I wrote and released a library that can be used by X11 applications to turn the X11 keyboard into an IFCTF keyboard, i.e., an extended ASCII input generator rather than a random bank of buttons. It is called the X11 IFCTF keyboard library and can be found on my FTP site: ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG:/pub/unix/X11/libXIFCTFkbd-1.0.tar.Z It takes the next step beyond keycode-to-keysym translation and turns the keyboard input into extended ASCII. For an explanation of what I mean by this you'll need to download the library and read the documentation. This library will be used by my HECterm/X11 terminal application. One thing that I absolutely have to have in order to migrate from the VT320 I'm typing this on to an X11 environment, even a Classic one (X11R4 client environment under 4.3BSD-Quasijarus talking to a standalone X11 display on Ethernet), is a text terminal application that can match the quality of a real DEC VT terminal. Since this is so critical to me, I have decided not to rely on anyone else's software and to write my own terminal application from scratch. I'm already well into it and it's coming along nicely. When it's ready, I'll of course release it as public domain software as well and announce it here. MS From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 11 19:00:43 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:00:43 -0500 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: <42AB71EB.40600@mdrconsult.com> References: <42AB71EB.40600@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200506111900.43210.pat@computer-refuge.org> Doc Shipley declared on Saturday 11 June 2005 06:21 pm: > Would a DSHD floppy drive with a DSHD disk in it look like a 5.25" > DSQD drive to an Altos 580? IOW, could I just plug it in and go? That's a good question. I think that as long as the Altos uses the SA400 (?) floppy bus (like the DSHD drive), it probably will work. I've read/written DSQD disks using a DSHD floppy drive on a PC just fine. I'd just give it a shot, you're unlikely to break anything. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 11 19:04:09 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:04:09 -0400 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question Message-ID: <0IHY006CY2UYJQTI@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question > From: Doc Shipley > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:21:15 -0500 > To: General at mdrconsult.com, "Discussion at mdrconsult.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > > Would a DSHD floppy drive with a DSHD disk in it look like a 5.25" >DSQD drive to an Altos 580? IOW, could I just plug it in and go? > No! The drive should be jumperd for DSDD use. The media should be standard Floppy Brown stuff. All of the DSHD drive will do DSQD mode if setup (jumpers) correctly. The 5.25" HD mode is both higher data rate and differnt media and they must match. Unfortunatly the Altos does not drive the disk at that data rate. It may plug and go depending on the cable and the drive. Allison From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Jun 11 19:15:36 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:15:36 -0500 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: <200506111900.43210.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <42AB71EB.40600@mdrconsult.com> <200506111900.43210.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <42AB7EA8.401@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Doc Shipley declared on Saturday 11 June 2005 06:21 pm: > >> Would a DSHD floppy drive with a DSHD disk in it look like a 5.25" >>DSQD drive to an Altos 580? IOW, could I just plug it in and go? > > > That's a good question. I think that as long as the Altos uses the SA400 > (?) floppy bus (like the DSHD drive), it probably will work. I've > read/written DSQD disks using a DSHD floppy drive on a PC just fine. > > I'd just give it a shot, you're unlikely to break anything. :) Crap. I just realized I have to find a 3.5" drive with ID jumpers. That may very well be a showstopper. Doc From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 11 19:52:14 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: <42AB71EB.40600@mdrconsult.com> References: <42AB71EB.40600@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <49069.71.129.198.222.1118537534.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Doc asks: > Would a DSHD floppy drive with a DSHD disk in it You mean a 96 TPI high-density 5.25" disk and drive (e.g., IBM 1.2M format that was introduced with the PC/AT)? > look like a 5.25" DSQD drive to an Altos 580? > IOW, could I just plug it in and go? By DSQD you mean a 96 TPI standard-density double-side drive? If so, not reliably. You should use a standard-density floppy diskette in the high-density drive; that should work fine. Eric From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Jun 11 20:01:12 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:01:12 -0500 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: <49069.71.129.198.222.1118537534.squirrel@71.129.198.222> References: <42AB71EB.40600@mdrconsult.com> <49069.71.129.198.222.1118537534.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: <42AB8958.2070605@mdrconsult.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Doc asks: > >> Would a DSHD floppy drive with a DSHD disk in it > > > You mean a 96 TPI high-density 5.25" disk and drive (e.g., IBM 1.2M format > that was introduced with the PC/AT)? Sorry, no, I meant a 3.5" floppy drive. As soon as Allison replied I realized the question was ambiguous. I've found something intersting about the Compaq m/b that hosts my 1.2MB 5.25" disk drive, though. That board auto-detects all its hardware on every boot. If I boot with a DSQD disk in that drive, the BIOS auto-updates the settings to '3.5" 1.44MB Drive". Which is what prompted my question in the first place. Doc From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jun 11 21:16:57 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:16:57 -0400 Subject: CompuPro RAM14 switch settings Message-ID: <003201c56ef4$cf2ff770$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: Does anyone have the configuration switch setting information for the CompuPro RAM14 manual? I've gone to the usual manual archives and no one seems to have the RAM14 manual. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 11 22:51:52 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:51:52 -0400 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question Message-ID: <0IHY00C6GDEGAKDD@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Wild-hair floppy drive question > From: Doc Shipley > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:01:12 -0500 > To: General at mdrconsult.com, "Discussion at mdrconsult.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > >Eric Smith wrote: > >> Doc asks: >> >>> Would a DSHD floppy drive with a DSHD disk in it >> >> >> You mean a 96 TPI high-density 5.25" disk and drive (e.g., IBM 1.2M format >> that was introduced with the PC/AT)? > > Sorry, no, I meant a 3.5" floppy drive. As soon as Allison replied I >realized the question was ambiguous. > > I've found something intersting about the Compaq m/b that hosts my >1.2MB 5.25" disk drive, though. > > That board auto-detects all its hardware on every boot. If I boot >with a DSQD disk in that drive, the BIOS auto-updates the settings to >'3.5" 1.44MB Drive". > > Which is what prompted my question in the first place. Ah, so you wish to use a 3.5" floppy for an Altos that has a 5.25 DSQD? If that is the question the answer is yes. (use one hole media aka 720k). If not a TEAC FD55GFV will work as a DSQD 5.25". Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 11 22:53:37 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:53:37 -0400 Subject: CompuPro RAM14 switch settings Message-ID: <0IHY003DVDHCXEOH@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: CompuPro RAM14 switch settings > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:16:57 -0400 > To: CCTalk > >All: > > Does anyone have the configuration switch setting information for >the CompuPro RAM14 manual? I've gone to the usual manual archives and no one >seems to have the RAM14 manual. > > Thanks. >Rich I have the two volume compendium and a large assrotment of loose manuals for Compupro and I see no RAM14. Sure of that number? Allison From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Jun 11 23:11:40 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:11:40 -0500 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: <0IHY00C6GDEGAKDD@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IHY00C6GDEGAKDD@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <42ABB5FC.8060908@mdrconsult.com> Allison wrote: >>>Doc asks: >>> >>> >>>> Would a DSHD floppy drive with a DSHD disk in it >> >> Sorry, no, I meant a 3.5" floppy drive. As soon as Allison replied I >>realized the question was ambiguous. > Ah, so you wish to use a 3.5" floppy for an Altos that has a 5.25 DSQD? > > > If that is the question the answer is yes. (use one hole media aka 720k). I have a few pounds of DSDD 3.5" media. What I think I *don't* have is a 3.5" drive that can be jumpered to ID 0. > If not a TEAC FD55GFV will work as a DSQD 5.25". That's a possibility too. The drive in the Altos doesn't sound particularly healthy, so I'm scouting a replacement. Is there a document explaining the differences between the several TEAC FD55Gxx drives? I have a bunch of TEAC FD55GFRs, but the "V" models are really rare around here. And speaking of floppy things, you remember that set of Kaypro master disks I got from you? I finally ID'ed them. They're MS-DOS based, for a Kaypro 16. :) If you have a use for them I don't, and if not I'll put them up to the list for postage. Doc From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Jun 11 23:20:28 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:20:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes FINAL WORD In-Reply-To: <20050610165551.T1396@localhost> Message-ID: I was at RCS this afternoon, and after talking to Mike about the whole Pioneer 10 and 11 tape nonsense, we did a little digging: http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/MasterCatalog?sc=1972-012A&ds=* http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/MasterCatalog?sc=1973-019A&ds=* Well, well, well...it looks like every bit of Pioneer 10 and 11 has been saved already, and can be accessed thru the proper channels (on tape, but apparently they will burn a CDROM on request). Every other spacecraft, as well. It is time to lay this urban legend about rotting NASA tapes to rest. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Jun 11 23:28:07 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:28:07 -0500 Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes FINAL WORD References: Message-ID: <002c01c56f07$25819270$0492d6d1@randy> From: "William Donzelli" Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 11:20 PM >I was at RCS this afternoon, and after talking to Mike about the whole > Pioneer 10 and 11 tape nonsense, we did a little digging: > > http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/MasterCatalog?sc=1972-012A&ds=* > http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/MasterCatalog?sc=1973-019A&ds=* > > Well, well, well...it looks like every bit of Pioneer 10 and 11 has been > saved already, and can be accessed thru the proper channels (on > tape, but apparently they will burn a CDROM on request). > > Every other spacecraft, as well. > > It is time to lay this urban legend about rotting NASA tapes to rest. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org I'd be willing to bet they'll take money to recover the data anyway :) Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Jun 11 23:31:46 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:31:46 -0500 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question References: <0IHY00C6GDEGAKDD@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <42ABB5FC.8060908@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <003101c56f07$a8547a50$0492d6d1@randy> From: "Doc Shipley" Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 11:11 PM > Allison wrote: >>>>Doc asks: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Would a DSHD floppy drive with a DSHD disk in it >>> >>> Sorry, no, I meant a 3.5" floppy drive. As soon as Allison replied I >>> realized the question was ambiguous. > >> Ah, so you wish to use a 3.5" floppy for an Altos that has a 5.25 DSQD? >> >> >> If that is the question the answer is yes. (use one hole media aka >> 720k). > > I have a few pounds of DSDD 3.5" media. > > What I think I *don't* have is a 3.5" drive that can be jumpered to ID > 0. > >> If not a TEAC FD55GFV will work as a DSQD 5.25". > > That's a possibility too. The drive in the Altos doesn't sound > particularly healthy, so I'm scouting a replacement. > > Is there a document explaining the differences between the several TEAC > FD55Gxx drives? I have a bunch of TEAC FD55GFRs, but the "V" models are > really rare around here. > > And speaking of floppy things, you remember that set of Kaypro master > disks I got from you? I finally ID'ed them. They're MS-DOS based, for a > Kaypro 16. :) If you have a use for them I don't, and if not I'll put > them up to the list for postage. > > > Doc The easy thing to do is just make a cable with pins 10, 11, & 12 twisted. This takes the standard controllers DS0 line and drives DS1. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Jun 11 23:35:17 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes FINAL WORD In-Reply-To: <002c01c56f07$25819270$0492d6d1@randy> Message-ID: > I'd be willing to bet they'll take money to recover the data anyway :) The whole article stinks a bit of "gimme gimme gimme". The bit about needing to rescue a hundred or so tapes is also suspect. A hundred nine track tapes would contain more data than all the Pioneers, and all other probes, sent - by a couple orders of magnitude. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From James at jdfogg.com Sat Jun 11 23:54:53 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:54:53 -0400 Subject: Tom Jennings on History channel Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045B04@sbs.jdfogg.com> > The show missed it though, since the MC Pacer was originally > a possible candidate for a rotary engine that was replaced by > a 6 cylinder for road. If they had refitted the Pacer with a > triced out 13B they would hav ehad a better show if they had\ > been racing Pacer vs something with 300 hp. The original Ford Mustang (1964 1/2) was slated to have a rotary too. Some early marketing material and a coffee-table book or two mention the existance of a rotary model, but none are known to have been registered as far as I can tell. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 12 00:10:55 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:10:55 -0700 Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes FINAL WORD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:35 AM -0400 6/12/05, William Donzelli wrote: > > I'd be willing to bet they'll take money to recover the data anyway :) > >The whole article stinks a bit of "gimme gimme gimme". The bit about >needing to rescue a hundred or so tapes is also suspect. A hundred nine >track tapes would contain more data than all the Pioneers, and all other >probes, sent - by a couple orders of magnitude. Um, 100 9-Track tapes is all of what, 8GB? Somehow I would think that Pioneer 10 and 11 have sent back more data than that. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dieymir at yahoo.es Sun Jun 12 04:17:14 2005 From: dieymir at yahoo.es (=?iso-8859-1?q?Diego=20Rodr=EDguez=20Rodr=EDguez?=) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:17:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Compaq DOS 3.31 Message-ID: <20050612091714.45039.qmail@web25609.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Hi if you 5.25 or 3.5's try this man, > Computer News 80 > PO Box 50127 > Casper, Wyoming 82605-0127 (compnews at trib.com) > he should have some. > Al DePermentier > Thanks a lot for the info, I'll try it. ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 12 05:37:26 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:37:26 -0400 Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes FINAL WORD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42AC1066.nail54N11GAIO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > 8GB? Somehow I would think that Pioneer 10 and 11 have sent back > more data than that. Max data rate for the link is only 2048 bits per second, and that's only when all the antenna-pointing for such a high rate is available (those antennas have other things to cover in general...) At 2048 bits per second, you get 8 GBytes/year. But most of the instruments you'd use when not doing a planetary flyby are happily served by a data rate of a few bits per second (which is how it spent most of its active life). Here in 2005, though, it's likely that the most interesting instruments are those that had low data rates. Not that the pictures weren't pretty, but all the folks I worked with (space plasma physicists) were far more interested in the not-pictures :-). I'm not sure how 100 tapes got turned into 8 Gbytes, but it's likely that data from a probe that spans decades have their data spread among a lot of original tapes. Tim. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jun 12 09:28:37 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:28:37 -0500 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: <42AB8958.2070605@mdrconsult.com> References: <42AB71EB.40600@mdrconsult.com> <49069.71.129.198.222.1118537534.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <42AB8958.2070605@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20050612092837.36657c6f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:01:12 -0500 Doc Shipley wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: > > > Doc asks: > > > >> Would a DSHD floppy drive with a DSHD disk in it > > > > > > You mean a 96 TPI high-density 5.25" disk and drive (e.g., IBM 1.2M > > format that was introduced with the PC/AT)? > > Sorry, no, I meant a 3.5" floppy drive. As soon as Allison replied > I > realized the question was ambiguous. > > I've found something intersting about the Compaq m/b that hosts my > 1.2MB 5.25" disk drive, though. > > That board auto-detects all its hardware on every boot. If I boot > with a DSQD disk in that drive, the BIOS auto-updates the settings to > '3.5" 1.44MB Drive". > > Which is what prompted my question in the first place. > > > Doc Years back, I had good luck using a 720K (DSDD) 3-1/2" drive in place of the 720K '80 track' 5-1/4" drive in an Intel PDS workstation. I 'converted over' all the original media from 5-1/4" by installing the 3 and 5 inch drives in a 'dual drive' configuration then ran the disk copy utility. Blank new 720K 3-1/2" media itself has become scarce now, though. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jun 12 09:31:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:31:58 -0500 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: <42ABB5FC.8060908@mdrconsult.com> References: <0IHY00C6GDEGAKDD@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <42ABB5FC.8060908@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20050612093158.217237ed.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:11:40 -0500 Doc Shipley wrote: > Allison wrote: > >>>Doc asks: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Would a DSHD floppy drive with a DSHD disk in it > >> > >> Sorry, no, I meant a 3.5" floppy drive. As soon as Allison > >replied I >realized the question was ambiguous. > > > Ah, so you wish to use a 3.5" floppy for an Altos that has a 5.25 > > DSQD? > > > > > > If that is the question the answer is yes. (use one hole media aka > > 720k). > > I have a few pounds of DSDD 3.5" media. > > What I think I *don't* have is a 3.5" drive that can be jumpered to > ID 0. > > > If not a TEAC FD55GFV will work as a DSQD 5.25". > > That's a possibility too. The drive in the Altos doesn't sound > particularly healthy, so I'm scouting a replacement. > > Is there a document explaining the differences between the several > TEAC FD55Gxx drives? I have a bunch of TEAC FD55GFRs, but the "V" > models are really rare around here. > > And speaking of floppy things, you remember that set of Kaypro > master > disks I got from you? I finally ID'ed them. They're MS-DOS based, > for a Kaypro 16. :) If you have a use for them I don't, and if not > I'll put them up to the list for postage. > (waves hand vigorously regarding Kaypro 16 diskettes), though I have CP/M-86 on that hardware at the moment. > > Doc From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 12 09:41:12 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 10:41:12 -0400 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question Message-ID: <0IHZ005AL7GNA5R3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Wild-hair floppy drive question > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:28:37 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:01:12 -0500 >Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Eric Smith wrote: >> >> > Doc asks: >> > >> >> Would a DSHD floppy drive with a DSHD disk in it >> > >> > >> > You mean a 96 TPI high-density 5.25" disk and drive (e.g., IBM 1.2M >> > format that was introduced with the PC/AT)? >> >> Sorry, no, I meant a 3.5" floppy drive. As soon as Allison replied >> I >> realized the question was ambiguous. >> >> I've found something intersting about the Compaq m/b that hosts my >> 1.2MB 5.25" disk drive, though. >> >> That board auto-detects all its hardware on every boot. If I boot >> with a DSQD disk in that drive, the BIOS auto-updates the settings to >> '3.5" 1.44MB Drive". >> >> Which is what prompted my question in the first place. >> >> >> Doc > >Years back, I had good luck using a 720K (DSDD) 3-1/2" drive in place of >the 720K '80 track' 5-1/4" drive in an Intel PDS workstation. I >'converted over' all the original media from 5-1/4" by installing the 3 >and 5 inch drives in a 'dual drive' configuration then ran the disk copy >utility. > >Blank new 720K 3-1/2" media itself has become scarce now, though. I still do this in my Kapro 4/84. In a pinch 1.44media will work fine if the media select hole (not write protect) is filled. Fortunatly I have a box of 720k media. Allison From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jun 12 12:04:18 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:04:18 -0500 Subject: WTB: DL11 Message-ID: <200506121204.18517.pat@computer-refuge.org> So, one more part I need to get my DIY 11/34 functional, I need a DL11 for its console port. Since I aparenly was outbid on the one I was bidding on on ebay, I thought I might see if anyone on here has one available for a reasonable price. Thanks, Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 12 12:27:37 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:27:37 -0500 Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes FINAL WORD References: <42AC1066.nail54N11GAIO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <001401c56f74$0b215330$ac3cd7d1@randy> From: "Tim Shoppa" Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 5:37 AM >> 8GB? Somehow I would think that Pioneer 10 and 11 have sent back >> more data than that. > > Max data rate for the link is only 2048 bits per second, and that's > only when all the antenna-pointing for such a high rate is available > (those antennas have other things to cover in general...) > > At 2048 bits per second, you get 8 GBytes/year. But most of the > instruments you'd use when not doing a planetary flyby are happily > served by a data rate of a few bits per second (which is how it spent > most of its active life). > > Here in 2005, though, it's likely that the most interesting instruments > are those that had low data rates. Not that the pictures weren't > pretty, but all the folks I worked with (space plasma physicists) were > far more interested in the not-pictures :-). I'm not sure how 100 > tapes got turned into 8 Gbytes, but it's likely that data from a probe > that spans decades have their data spread among a lot of original tapes. > > Tim. More to the point no one should assume that ant tape is full. The tapes could have easily been segregated by time and the data stream is not constant so the amount of data accumulated would vary day to day. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 12 12:31:07 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:31:07 -0500 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question References: <0IHZ005AL7GNA5R3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <002301c56f74$87b458c0$ac3cd7d1@randy> From: "Allison" Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 9:41 AM >> From: Scott Stevens >> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:28:37 -0500 >>Years back, I had good luck using a 720K (DSDD) 3-1/2" drive in place of >>the 720K '80 track' 5-1/4" drive in an Intel PDS workstation. I >>'converted over' all the original media from 5-1/4" by installing the 3 >>and 5 inch drives in a 'dual drive' configuration then ran the disk copy >>utility. >> >>Blank new 720K 3-1/2" media itself has become scarce now, though. > > I still do this in my Kapro 4/84. In a pinch 1.44media will work fine > if the media select hole (not write protect) is filled. > > Fortunatly I have a box of 720k media. > > > Allison 3.5" DSDD media is still available and cheap but you may need to special order it. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 12 12:47:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 10:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes FINAL WORD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Jun 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 12:35 AM -0400 6/12/05, William Donzelli wrote: > > > I'd be willing to bet they'll take money to recover the data anyway :) > > > >The whole article stinks a bit of "gimme gimme gimme". The bit about > >needing to rescue a hundred or so tapes is also suspect. A hundred nine > >track tapes would contain more data than all the Pioneers, and all other > >probes, sent - by a couple orders of magnitude. > > Um, 100 9-Track tapes is all of what, 8GB? Somehow I would think > that Pioneer 10 and 11 have sent back more data than that. At the equivalent of, what, 7 baud? They haven't been out there THAT long. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 12 13:29:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nice computer museum in Sao Paulo, Brazil Message-ID: If you're planning to go to South America anytime soon, here's a great computer museum to visit: www.museudocomputador.com.br I'm impressed! There is actually quite a bit of computer history activity in South America. There's another computer museum in Argentina as well: http://www.comsto.org/ The images are currently broken for some reason. However, this one has been around for years and was started by a kid who first contacted me several years ago and I've watched him grow the thing into a full blown organization based out of his university. I'm planning a South American nerd tour at some point. Maybe next year. I actually have relatives throughout South America so it'll be a dual purpose trip ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jun 12 14:22:34 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:22:34 -0500 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: <002301c56f74$87b458c0$ac3cd7d1@randy> References: <0IHZ005AL7GNA5R3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <002301c56f74$87b458c0$ac3cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <42AC8B7A.2050602@mdrconsult.com> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Allison" > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 9:41 AM > >>> From: Scott Stevens >>> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:28:37 -0500 > > > >>> Years back, I had good luck using a 720K (DSDD) 3-1/2" drive in place of >>> the 720K '80 track' 5-1/4" drive in an Intel PDS workstation. I >>> 'converted over' all the original media from 5-1/4" by installing the 3 >>> and 5 inch drives in a 'dual drive' configuration then ran the disk copy >>> utility. >>> >>> Blank new 720K 3-1/2" media itself has become scarce now, though. >> >> >> I still do this in my Kapro 4/84. In a pinch 1.44media will work fine >> if the media select hole (not write protect) is filled. >> >> Fortunatly I have a box of 720k media. >> >> >> Allison > > > 3.5" DSDD media is still available and cheap but you may need to special > order it. I'd like to throw in here - there are a couple of office surplus houses here that I haunt on a monthly basis. I've gotten NOS media ranging from a couple of Black Watch 6250bpi 9-track reels to DVD-R blanks and used floppies out the wazoo. Last month I picked up 8 10-pc boxes of 3.5" DSDD disks for $0.50/box. The deal is that the used office supply places seem to get more floppy media and want a lot less for it than the computer shops. In fact, one of these places used to throw all that away till I started asking for it. Now he chucks it in a carton till I get to pick over it, then puts it out on the shelf for a month or so before he tosses it. Mike says I'm not the only buyer for "the weird stuff". ;) Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 12 13:06:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:06:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: <42ABB5FC.8060908@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Jun 11, 5 11:11:40 pm Message-ID: > > If that is the question the answer is yes. (use one hole media aka 720k). > > I have a few pounds of DSDD 3.5" media. > > What I think I *don't* have is a 3.5" drive that can be jumpered to ID 0. The drive select jumper just links one of the drive select pins on the interface connector to the appropriate internal signal. So if your drive doesn't have jumpers, all you need to do is make up a cable between the controller and the drive that (in this case) takes drive select 0 from the cotnroller to whatever select pin (probably DS1) that the drive does respond to. And link all other signals straight-through. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 12 14:43:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Midwest 1.0 Exhibitors needed! Message-ID: There's still more than 6 weeks to go until VCF Midwest 1.0. That's plenty of time to put together an exhibit for the event. So far we only have 3 exhibitors, and Pat is started to get nervous. I told him that people usually wait until a few weeks before to submit their exhibit entries, and so in case you forgot, now is the time to submit your entry! We've already got a couple great speakers lined up (still updating the pages but you can see the first speaker's bio up now) and more to come. It's going to be an excellent event. So please run on over to your nearest web browser and fill in the exhibitor form here: http://www.vintage.org/2005/midwest/exhibit.php Don't wait until it's too late! Main VCF Midwest 1.0 website: http://www.vintage.org/2005/midwest/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 12 14:51:12 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:51:12 -0500 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question References: Message-ID: <000e01c56f88$19964100$153dd7d1@randy> From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 1:06 PM >> > If that is the question the answer is yes. (use one hole media aka >> > 720k). >> >> I have a few pounds of DSDD 3.5" media. >> >> What I think I *don't* have is a 3.5" drive that can be jumpered to ID >> 0. > > The drive select jumper just links one of the drive select pins on the > interface connector to the appropriate internal signal. So if your drive > doesn't have jumpers, all you need to do is make up a cable between the > controller and the drive that (in this case) takes drive select 0 from > the cotnroller to whatever select pin (probably DS1) that the drive does > respond to. And link all other signals straight-through. > > > -tony By "twisting" three wires: 10 - DS0 11 - GND 12 - DS1 you get what you want. This is how IBM MFM drives had their twist done versus the floppy that twisted more lines to twist into it the motor on line. Please note you CAN NOT use any PC twisted cable for a standard floppy cable but it is easy to "un-twist" part of a PC cable to use as a standard floppy cable for a lot less $ than buying the components to build your own. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sun Jun 12 14:52:51 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 12:52:51 -0700 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question References: <200506121700.j5CH07QN097219@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002e01c56f88$58bddb40$0300a8c0@downstairs2> >Doc asks: > What I think I *don't* have is a 3.5" drive that can be jumpered to ID > 0. Here is my web page on using 3.5 inch drives with SWTPC 6800 systems but the information is the same for all classic disk controllers. It show how to build a cable to make a drive ID 0. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/35disk/Disk.htm Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 12 16:03:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Antikythera device on History Channel Ancient Discoveries program Message-ID: Just saw a wonderful program on the Antikythera device on The History Channel. The program is called "Ancient Discoveries". The UK listings indicate the program will be aired there on June 17 and 18: http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/site/tv_guide/full_details/Ancient_history/programme_1184.php Oddly, I couldn't find it on the American History Channel pages but then I didn't search thoroughly. I checked Netflix but they don't seem to have the Antikythera episode available. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 12 17:39:20 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: <0IHZ005AL7GNA5R3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IHZ005AL7GNA5R3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050612153525.I21558@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: > >Blank new 720K 3-1/2" media itself has become scarce now, though. > > I still do this in my Kapro 4/84. In a pinch 1.44media will work fine > if the media select hole (not write protect) is filled. Or in a drive that doesn't have a sensor (such as most early 720Ks, IBM PS/2 1.4M, etc.) The coercivity difference of 600 v 750 is close enough that you will often/usually get away with it (unlike the 300 v 600 of 360 v 1.2M) > Fortunatly I have a box of 720k media. I trust that it is a BIG box! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 12 17:52:04 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes FINAL WORD In-Reply-To: <001401c56f74$0b215330$ac3cd7d1@randy> References: <42AC1066.nail54N11GAIO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <001401c56f74$0b215330$ac3cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <20050612154222.N21558@shell.lmi.net> > >> 8GB? Somehow I would think that Pioneer 10 and 11 have sent back > >> more data than that. On Sun, 12 Jun 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > More to the point no one should assume that ant tape is full. > any > The tapes could have easily been segregated by time and the data stream is > not constant so the amount of data accumulated would vary day to day. In addition, there are "secondary" tapes. For example, I spent some time at NSSDC in GSFC assisting a British pysicist studying the Van Allenbelts. We would do a LOT of graphing of things, all written to tapes for plotting on Calcomp 570s and SD4060?s. A lot of those kind of "derived data" tapes will still be around. Unavailability of "obsolete computers" to "be able to read the tapes" is not, and never was, the actual problem. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 12 19:05:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 01:05:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: <000e01c56f88$19964100$153dd7d1@randy> from "Randy McLaughlin" at Jun 12, 5 02:51:12 pm Message-ID: > By "twisting" three wires: > > 10 - DS0 > 11 - GND > 12 - DS1 > Alternitavely (if you like hacking about on PCBs), cut the trace going to pin 12 of the connector, and reconnect it to pin 10. > you get what you want. > > > This is how IBM MFM drives had their twist done versus the floppy that > twisted more lines to twist into it the motor on line. Sure. > > > Please note you CAN NOT use any PC twisted cable for a standard floppy cable > but it is easy to "un-twist" part of a PC cable to use as a standard floppy > cable for a lot less $ than buying the components to build your own. On the other hand, if you're like me, you probably have plenty of 34 pin edge connectors and headers in the junk box (becasue they're useful for things other than PCs) and no PC floppy cables. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 12 19:26:23 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050612172245.P21558@shell.lmi.net> connecting a floppy as DS0: if you're not willing to trace the jumpers on the drive (almost all have at least solder pads!), then cut the traces of pins 10 and 12 and put a jumper wire from pin 10 of the connector to where pin 12 used to connect. ... or, do it like RS did,... short 10, 12, and 14 on the drive together. Then remove pins from the connector on the cable, so that each connector has only one of 10, 12, and 14 From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jun 12 21:08:43 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:08:43 -0500 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: <0IHY00C6GDEGAKDD@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IHY00C6GDEGAKDD@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <42ACEAAB.9060608@mdrconsult.com> Allison wrote: >>Subject: Re: Wild-hair floppy drive question >> From: Doc Shipley >> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:01:12 -0500 >> To: General at mdrconsult.com, "Discussion at mdrconsult.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic >>Posts >> >>Eric Smith wrote: >> >> >>>Doc asks: >>> >>> >>>> Would a DSHD floppy drive with a DSHD disk in it >>> >>> >>>You mean a 96 TPI high-density 5.25" disk and drive (e.g., IBM 1.2M format >>>that was introduced with the PC/AT)? >> >> Sorry, no, I meant a 3.5" floppy drive. As soon as Allison replied I >>realized the question was ambiguous. >> >> I've found something intersting about the Compaq m/b that hosts my >>1.2MB 5.25" disk drive, though. >> >> That board auto-detects all its hardware on every boot. If I boot >>with a DSQD disk in that drive, the BIOS auto-updates the settings to >>'3.5" 1.44MB Drive". >> >> Which is what prompted my question in the first place. > > > Ah, so you wish to use a 3.5" floppy for an Altos that has a 5.25 DSQD? > > > If that is the question the answer is yes. (use one hole media aka 720k). Well, I found a couple of 3.5" drives that can be jumpered, and the Altos doesn't recognize 'em at all. I suspect it wants a drive that does DD only. > If not a TEAC FD55GFV will work as a DSQD 5.25". Do you have the jumper settings for that? TEAC's documentation drives me up the wall. I have an FD55GFR that I can make boot and read, but not write or format. I suppose if I absolutely have to, I'll rob an FD55GFV from the 11/53 - the -GFR should work fine on the RQDX3. Doc From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jun 12 21:59:21 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:59:21 -0500 Subject: HP 2100S @ $5K? Message-ID: <007901c56fc3$e63b9ee0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> HP 2100S on ebay... looks nice, but.... Seller lists it as "mint" and "may never have been used" - uh, no. Not even close to "mint/never been used". I'd grant it "good", maybe even "excellent"... but mint/never used? nah... The ad says it's fully functional. That suprises me... I hope they didn't run it for hours to test it what with the power supply filters visibly all turned to dust and sucking up inside the machine. Lastly.... $5K? Surely they aren't worth even half that - even if it was truly "mint". I'd put actual (non-Ebay) value at around $400 (maybe I'm biased, I have a few)... and I'd put Ebay closing prices for a 2100 anywhere from $1500 to $2000 (actual values I've seen recently). But opening bid $5K? I just can't imagine that. The contents (memory, I/O cards) are unknown.... I predict that it won't get a single bid.... until the guy relists with a starting bid of around $1000. If I am wrong, then I really need to clean up and refurb a few 2100's and put them on ebay. Heck, if my wife sees a $5K close, she'll force me to. Jay From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Jun 12 22:48:17 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 05 03:48:17 GMT Subject: Registry for terminal DA responses? Message-ID: <0506130348.AA20611@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Hello again, As I was working on my terminal application (people usually say "terminal emulator", but I avoid that term since I'm creating a new terminal rather than emulating one made by someone else), the following question came up: there is a control sequence called Device Attributes (DA) whose generic form CSI c requests that the terminal send another DA sequence back to the host to identify itself. Each DEC terminal, for example, has a unique DA response. This is what the ECMA 48 standard (equivalent of ISO 6429) says: 8.3.24 DA - DEVICE ATTRIBUTES Notation: (Ps) Representation: CSI Ps 06/03 Parameter default value: Ps = 0 With a parameter value not equal to 0, DA is used to identify the device which sends the DA. The parameter value is a device type identification code according to a register which is to be established. If the parameter value is 0, DA is used to request an identifying DA from a device. My question is: does anyone know if such a registry exists and where can one apply for a DA code assignment? TIA, MS From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jun 12 23:22:52 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:22:52 -0500 Subject: Registry for terminal DA responses? In-Reply-To: <0506130348.AA20611@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0506130348.AA20611@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200506122322.53050.pat@computer-refuge.org> Michael Sokolov declared on Sunday 12 June 2005 10:48 pm: > My question is: does anyone know if such a registry exists and where > can one apply for a DA code assignment? TIA, Uhh, registry? Yeah, right. You can start your own registry, I guess. If there was one, it was at DEC and only held the codes used by terminals that DEC produced. Boundless now sells VT5xx terminals; they at some point purchased DEC's old terminal line/division/etc. You do realize, there were terminals that weren't VT100 compatible (at least in their native mode), like Wyse 50/60 terminals, ADM 3/5s, IBM 3151s, Televideo 925s, ... They didn't do the "CSI c" command; they might have had a "DA" method, but I'm doubtful it was the same as what DEC did. You might try looking at the BSD termcap/terminfo database for a listing of what kind of responses there are. I'd assume that (non-DEC) terminals that were put in a VTxxx emulation mode responded to that with the same response that a real VTxxx would give. Any reason you don't want to use the (so-called) "ANSI" vt-100 type sequences or those from, say, a vt525, for your 'termainal application'? Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 12 23:31:32 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Registry for terminal DA responses? In-Reply-To: <200506122322.53050.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0506130348.AA20611@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <200506122322.53050.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <39711.71.129.198.222.1118637092.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Pat wrote: > Any reason you don't want to use the (so-called) "ANSI" vt-100 type > sequences That's exactly what he's doing! ECMA-48 and ISO 6429:1992 *ARE* the current standards for "ANSI escape sequences", as originally specified in ANSI X3.64. Eric From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Jun 13 00:32:27 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 05 05:32:27 GMT Subject: Registry for terminal DA responses? Message-ID: <0506130532.AA20729@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Uhh, registry? Yeah, right. Well, the International Standard document clearly calls for one. It says "a register to be established", though, and I guess that has never been done. > You can start your own registry, I guess. I'm willing. But then I would need ISO to appoint me as the registrar. Hmm, maybe I should give this a serious thought. Any idea whom to approach? After all, the standard calls for a registry and one does not exist. Similarly to how ISO had appointed ECMA as the registrar for ISO 2022 escape sequences (now it's some other organisation in Japan), IFCTF could maintain the registry for DA codes. > If there was one, it was at > DEC and only held the codes used by terminals that DEC produced. All DEC DA responses have the 3/15 private marker after the CSI, indicating that all following parameters are private and have no global significance. ISO clearly intended, on the other hand, to have a global registry. If you have a code assigned from the global registry, you can send it in responses without a private marker. No one else can then legitimately return the same response, and anyone receiving that response would have every right to assume it's your product. Private parameters (what DEC used) do not guarantee interoperability: vendor A can define ?1 to identify one of its products, but another vendor B would have every right to define ?1 to identify one of *its* products. > You do realize, there were terminals that weren't VT100 compatible (at > least in their native mode), like Wyse 50/60 terminals, ADM 3/5s, IBM > 3151s, Televideo 925s, ... They didn't do the "CSI c" command; they > might have had a "DA" method, but I'm doubtful it was the same as what > DEC did. DA (CSI c) is not a DECism, it's a feature of the International Standard ISO 6429. Yes, of course there are terminals that don't care about ISO 6429 and implement their own completely different escape/control/whatever sequences, but they are not relevant to this discussion. I'm talking about the standard mechanism for identifying a particular implementation of ISO 6429 among all others in the Universe. > Any reason you don't want to use the (so-called) "ANSI" vt-100 type > sequences or those from, say, a vt525, for your 'termainal application'? The product I'm designing follows ISO 6429, which is the successor to ANSI X3.64 that you are referring to. VT100 is one implementation of the standard, mine will be another. DEC is one manufacturer, HEC is another. My implementation of the standard will be very close to DEC's, but not identical. I'm deliberately not writing an exact VTxxx emulator since I want to do a few things differently. The main area of difference is character set handling. I have made a proper implementation of ISO 2022, whereas DEC has made some horrible kludges apparently to make it "user- friendly" in their perverted sense. I'm talking about the horrible mess with multinational vs. national modes, keyboard variants and typewriter vs. data processing keys, kludges that have no place in an ISO 2022 terminal. MS From asholz at topinform.de Mon Jun 13 01:58:27 2005 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:58:27 +0200 Subject: Emulex UC17/UC18 SCSI-Controller in PDP11/24 In-Reply-To: <000701c53b19$bf8bab70$0200a8c0@downstairs2> References: <000701c53b19$bf8bab70$0200a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <42AD2E93.3000300@topinform.de> Hello all, I'm trying to configure an Emulex UC18 SCSI-Controller in a PDP11/24. From the switch settings (MSCP) the Device Base Adresses of the two SCSI channels are 17772150 and 17760334. Looking at the UC17 Manual (bitsavers) on page "Installation 4-33" I found to enter the following at the 11/24 ODT prompt: @177xxxxx 1 /177yyyyy 30003 ... based on the real adresses e.g.: from table 4-13 on page 4-31 xxxxx = 60334 and yyyyy = 60336 @17760334 1 -> but how to enter such a long adress on a 11/24? What is going wrong? Andreas From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Jun 13 02:53:29 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:53:29 +0200 Subject: Emulex UC17/UC18 SCSI-Controller in PDP11/24 Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D1D@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hello Andreas, you might try leave off the leading "17" of the address, thus enter @760334 1 but I am not 100% sure. Give it a try :~) - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Andreas Holz > Sent: maandag 13 juni 2005 8:58 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Emulex UC17/UC18 SCSI-Controller in PDP11/24 > > > Hello all, > > I'm trying to configure an Emulex UC18 SCSI-Controller in a PDP11/24. > > From the switch settings (MSCP) the Device Base Adresses of the two > SCSI channels are 17772150 and 17760334. > > Looking at the UC17 Manual (bitsavers) on page "Installation 4-33" I > found to enter the following at the 11/24 ODT prompt: > > @177xxxxx 1 > /177yyyyy 30003 > > ... > > based on the real adresses e.g.: > > from table 4-13 on page 4-31 xxxxx = 60334 and yyyyy = 60336 > > @17760334 1 -> but how to enter such a long adress on a 11/24? > > What is going wrong? > > Andreas > From david at cantrell.org.uk Mon Jun 13 06:22:15 2005 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:22:15 +0100 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <47425.207.145.53.202.1118366216.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <0506092002.AA14399@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050609174921.S61046@shell.lmi.net> <47425.207.145.53.202.1118366216.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050613112214.GA5072@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Thu, Jun 09, 2005 at 06:16:56PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Virgil: Hippy, you think everything is a conspiracy. > Hippy: Everything is. > -- The Abyss It probably says something bad about me that I couldn't think which of his various recipes for salad Virgil said that in. -- David Cantrell | top google result for "topless karaoke murders" Hail Caesar! Those about to vi ^[ you! From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 13 07:25:32 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:25:32 -0400 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question Message-ID: <0II0003NEVUEX9HK@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Wild-hair floppy drive question > From: Doc Shipley > Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:08:43 -0500 > To: General at mdrconsult.com, "Discussion at mdrconsult.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > >Allison wrote: > >>>Subject: Re: Wild-hair floppy drive question >>> From: Doc Shipley >>> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:01:12 -0500 >>> To: General at mdrconsult.com, "Discussion at mdrconsult.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic >>>Posts >>> >>>Eric Smith wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Doc asks: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Would a DSHD floppy drive with a DSHD disk in it >>>> >>>> >>>>You mean a 96 TPI high-density 5.25" disk and drive (e.g., IBM 1.2M format >>>>that was introduced with the PC/AT)? >>> >>> Sorry, no, I meant a 3.5" floppy drive. As soon as Allison replied I >>>realized the question was ambiguous. >>> >>> I've found something intersting about the Compaq m/b that hosts my >>>1.2MB 5.25" disk drive, though. >>> >>> That board auto-detects all its hardware on every boot. If I boot >>>with a DSQD disk in that drive, the BIOS auto-updates the settings to >>>'3.5" 1.44MB Drive". >>> >>> Which is what prompted my question in the first place. >> >> >> Ah, so you wish to use a 3.5" floppy for an Altos that has a 5.25 DSQD? >> >> >> If that is the question the answer is yes. (use one hole media aka 720k). > > Well, I found a couple of 3.5" drives that can be jumpered, and the >Altos doesn't recognize 'em at all. I suspect it wants a drive that >does DD only. It has nothing to do with the drive density. It's looking for ready or some other signal. OR a correctly formatted disk (NOT PC DOS formatted) >> If not a TEAC FD55GFV will work as a DSQD 5.25". > > Do you have the jumper settings for that? TEAC's documentation >drives me up the wall. I have an FD55GFR that I can make boot and read, >but not write or format. I suppose if I absolutely have to, I'll rob an >FD55GFV from the 11/53 - the -GFR should work fine on the RQDX3. No, I have to look it up every time and I have at least 5 versions that have different jumpers. Likely specific to Altos (I dont have one of those). I do know my DEC systems require different setups from other machines I have. FYI: any drive that is equivilent to a Either: TEAC FD55Fxx (two sides 96TPI DSQD only) TEAC FD55Gxx (Two sides 96TPI DSQD and HD1.2m) Will work. That includs a few Toshiba, Mistubishi and odd brand named drives from the late AT286 into the early 486 eara. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 13 07:36:48 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:36:48 -0400 Subject: Registry for terminal DA responses? Message-ID: <0II000CPLWD67I6N@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Registry for terminal DA responses? > From: Patrick Finnegan > Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:22:52 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Michael Sokolov declared on Sunday 12 June 2005 10:48 pm: >> My question is: does anyone know if such a registry exists and where >> can one apply for a DA code assignment? TIA, > >Uhh, registry? Yeah, right. > >You can start your own registry, I guess. If there was one, it was at >DEC and only held the codes used by terminals that DEC produced. >Boundless now sells VT5xx terminals; they at some point purchased DEC's >old terminal line/division/etc. DEC wrote an internal standard for terminals and it was quite thick to specify the behavour of escapes and the like. If you have the VT52, VT100, VT102, VT220, VT240 and VT320/330/340, VT420 manuals you have a resonable subset of that description. > >You do realize, there were terminals that weren't VT100 compatible (at >least in their native mode), like Wyse 50/60 terminals, ADM 3/5s, IBM >3151s, Televideo 925s, ... They didn't do the "CSI c" command; they >might have had a "DA" method, but I'm doubtful it was the same as what >DEC did. > >You might try looking at the BSD termcap/terminfo database for a listing >of what kind of responses there are. > >I'd assume that (non-DEC) terminals that were put in a VTxxx emulation >mode responded to that with the same response that a real VTxxx would >give. Believe it or not NONE of the competing terminals tested inside DEC met more than 90% of the VT100 sequences (as of 1989ish). They always broke in some way usually benign but a few would require reset (power off/on) to correct. The testing was condusted by the same group that validated VT100 through VT420 (maybe further) and all VT emulations that were non terminal (decwindows,VT1200, and the like). >Any reason you don't want to use the (so-called) "ANSI" vt-100 type >sequences or those from, say, a vt525, for your 'termainal application'? I can think of one. The average VT100 emulation is poor at best and fully broken most times. Vt100 was a family of terminals, also the capability varied so the escape sequences were extended using ANSI private. The only stuff I've seen that behaves accurately is VT52 emulation, mostly because VT52 was so limited compated to VT100. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 13 07:51:41 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:51:41 -0400 Subject: Registry for terminal DA responses? Message-ID: <0II0004DUX1ZRLN6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Registry for terminal DA responses? > From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) > Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 05:32:27 +0000 (GMT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Private parameters (what DEC used) do not guarantee interoperability: >vendor A can define ?1 to identify one of its products, but another vendor B >would have every right to define ?1 to identify one of *its* products. DEC published what they did. Private in this sense was defiened in ISO/ANSI as undefined by them and available for implmentation if the VENDOR elects to have said functionality. The ANSI defines were quite limited and far for complete. Then there were those vendors that use something else before ANSI and wished to continue with them for customer loyalty. That fragmented the market, ANSI/DEC compatable and NON ANSI/DEC compatable. >DA (CSI c) is not a DECism, it's a feature of the International Standard >ISO 6429. Yes, of course there are terminals that don't care about ISO 6429 >and implement their own completely different escape/control/whatever >sequences, but they are not relevant to this discussion. I'm talking about >the standard mechanism for identifying a particular implementation of ISO >6429 among all others in the Universe. Who do you think was part of ANSI and supplied delagates and corperate support? >The product I'm designing follows ISO 6429, which is the successor to >ANSI X3.64 that you are referring to. VT100 is one implementation of >the standard, mine will be another. DEC is one manufacturer, HEC is >another. Actually VT100 predated that standard! ANSI didnt get it out the door before VT100 was delieverd. >My implementation of the standard will be very close to DEC's, but not >identical. I'm deliberately not writing an exact VTxxx emulator since >I want to do a few things differently. The main area of difference is >character set handling. I have made a proper implementation of ISO 2022, >whereas DEC has made some horrible kludges apparently to make it "user- >friendly" in their perverted sense. I'm talking about the horrible mess >with multinational vs. national modes, keyboard variants and typewriter >vs. data processing keys, kludges that have no place in an ISO 2022 >terminal. The DEC was was to keep their terminals compatable with prior version that had existed since the mid 70s. Or differently put, new terminals should not break the customer (they did sometimes anyway!)! That was part one. Part two of that is multinationalization was a POST VT100 event. By Time DEC started with Multinational products VT220 and some of the VT1xx vairents were out the door or about to. The whole process of multinational products would over the next 10 years undergo several variations to meet the market as it changed. One thing to remember. ANSI was always after the first product and rarely covered all the varitions in the field. And like it's IEEE and ISO cousins was subject to interpretation until the market forced everyone onto the same sheet of paper. Allison From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 13 11:42:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tom Jennings on History channel Message-ID: <200506131642.JAA09765@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "James Fogg" > >> The show missed it though, since the MC Pacer was originally >> a possible candidate for a rotary engine that was replaced by >> a 6 cylinder for road. If they had refitted the Pacer with a >> triced out 13B they would hav ehad a better show if they had\ >> been racing Pacer vs something with 300 hp. > >The original Ford Mustang (1964 1/2) was slated to have a rotary too. >Some early marketing material and a coffee-table book or two mention the >existance of a rotary model, but none are known to have been registered >as far as I can tell. > > Hi Rotry engines always had issues with smog. In order to get them to work, they were not vary fuel efficient. Still, a lot of Hp in a small package. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 13 12:06:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dodgy IBM PC Convertible power supply Message-ID: I've got a couple IBM PC Convertibles that exhibit the same problem with their power supply. When I press the power button (which is a momentary switch) it turns on briefly: the disk drive light goes on and the drive starts to spin or the display shows brief activity, but in either case for only about a tenth of a second. Sometimes if I hold the switch just right I can get it to make it through the entire memory test and up to the point where it wants a disk in the drive, but it's very hit & miss. It certainly is not behaving as it should. I've tried cleaning both the switch and the AC adaptor socket but so far this has not improved anything. The switch seems to be doing its job, and the power seems to be making it to the unit. It just seems like the power supply becomes unhappy at some point, unless I hold the switch in a certain position, but then I invariably lose my touch and the power goes out again. I'm using appropriate adaptors, including a car cigarette lighter adaptor plugged into mains using an AC-to-cigarette lighter socket adapter (kind of handy in this case). I've tried swapping the internal power supplies around between units but get the same problem on each. One has a battery pack and one doesn't, but having it in or not in does not make a difference. Seems like the power supplies are dodgy or something? Any ideas? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 13 12:22:55 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes FINAL WORD Message-ID: <200506131722.KAA09780@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "William Donzelli" > >I was at RCS this afternoon, and after talking to Mike about the whole >Pioneer 10 and 11 tape nonsense, we did a little digging: > >http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/MasterCatalog?sc=1972-012A&ds=* >http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/MasterCatalog?sc=1973-019A&ds=* > >Well, well, well...it looks like every bit of Pioneer 10 and 11 has been >saved already, and can be accessed thru the proper channels (on >tape, but apparently they will burn a CDROM on request). > >Every other spacecraft, as well. > >It is time to lay this urban legend about rotting NASA tapes to rest. > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > Hi Like I said, it was just a "STORY". Not a true story, just something to make the editors happy and get the next pay check. Dwight From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 13 12:32:49 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:32:49 -0500 Subject: Dodgy IBM PC Convertible power supply References: Message-ID: <000c01c5703d$f06b7fa0$c13cd7d1@randy> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 12:06 PM > I've got a couple IBM PC Convertibles that exhibit the same problem with > their power supply. When I press the power button (which is a momentary > switch) it turns on briefly: the disk drive light goes on and the drive > starts to spin or the display shows brief activity, but in either case for > only about a tenth of a second. Sometimes if I hold the switch just right > I can get it to make it through the entire memory test and up to the point > where it wants a disk in the drive, but it's very hit & miss. It > certainly is not behaving as it should. > > I've tried cleaning both the switch and the AC adaptor socket but so far > this has not improved anything. The switch seems to be doing its job, and > the power seems to be making it to the unit. It just seems like the power > supply becomes unhappy at some point, unless I hold the switch in a > certain position, but then I invariably lose my touch and the power goes > out again. > > I'm using appropriate adaptors, including a car cigarette lighter adaptor > plugged into mains using an AC-to-cigarette lighter socket adapter (kind > of handy in this case). > > I've tried swapping the internal power supplies around between units but > get the same problem on each. One has a battery pack and one doesn't, but > having it in or not in does not make a difference. > > Seems like the power supplies are dodgy or something? Any ideas? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] My methods are simple: Mechanical failure composes the majority of the problems (bad connections): Check - plugs, sockets, switches, connectors, and cold solder joints. Use a cleaner that works like Tarn-X, check for loose sockets. The fact that you say "unless I hold the switch in a certain position" makes me suspicious about how clean it is. I am unfamiliar with the convertible PS but if you have a schematic I would look for the logic switch that is supposed to latch it and follow that path. The majority of the time repairs are as I said a mechanical failure, with age tarnished connections are common. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon Jun 13 13:33:14 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:33:14 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/23+ progress Message-ID: <00a101c57046$6003a380$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> I finally managed to get my OEM 11/23+ to boot from the RL02 today, the solution to the OEM boot ROM problem was to set the RLV12 addressing mode to 18 bit, rather than 22bit. I assume that this is a feature of the OEM boot program :-) I'm now getting garbage on the terminal, but have yet to figure out which setting I've got wrong! Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 13 14:00:06 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:00:06 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23+ progress Message-ID: <0II10014SE3WEYB2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: PDP 11/23+ progress > From: "Jim Beacon" > Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:33:14 +0100 > To: "Classic computer list" > >I finally managed to get my OEM 11/23+ to boot from the RL02 today, the >solution to the OEM boot ROM problem was to set the RLV12 addressing mode to >18 bit, rather than 22bit. I assume that this is a feature of the OEM boot >program :-) > >I'm now getting garbage on the terminal, but have yet to figure out which >setting I've got wrong! > >Jim. > >Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK Likely baud rate. Try 4800n1. Allison From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon Jun 13 14:38:43 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:38:43 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/23+ progress References: <0II10014SE3WEYB2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <00b001c5704f$8287eac0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> > > > >I'm now getting garbage on the terminal, but have yet to figure out which > >setting I've got wrong! > > > >Jim. > > > >Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK > > Likely baud rate. Try 4800n1. > > Allison I have the terminal set 4800n1, and the CPU switch and jumper settings seem to agree (what I can see), though there must be something that is not agreeing. The confusing bit (for me ), is that there are two RX wires, RCV+ and RCV-, what is the convention for using these, with say a VT320? is one of them normally connected to earth? At th moment, I have the RCV+ connected to the terminals TXD, and RCV- is earthed (how I found the system) - is this correct? Jim. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 13 14:45:47 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:45:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Antikythera device on History Channel Ancient Discoveries program In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "Antikythera device on History Channel Ancient Discoveries program" (Jun 12, 14:03) References: Message-ID: <10506132045.ZM8945@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 12 2005, 14:03, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Just saw a wonderful program on the Antikythera device on The History > Channel. The program is called "Ancient Discoveries". > > The UK listings indicate the program will be aired there on June 17 and > 18: Aha, I missed that last time around. Thanks for the heads-up! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 13 15:17:13 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:17:13 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23+ progress Message-ID: <0II100GK7HOFWR6J@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP 11/23+ progress > From: "Jim Beacon" > Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:38:43 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >> > >> >I'm now getting garbage on the terminal, but have yet to figure out which >> >setting I've got wrong! >> > >> >Jim. >> > >> >Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at >WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK >> >> Likely baud rate. Try 4800n1. >> >> Allison > >I have the terminal set 4800n1, and the CPU switch and jumper settings seem >to agree (what I can see), though there must be something that is not >agreeing. > > The confusing bit (for me ), is that there are two RX wires, RCV+ and RCV-, >what is the convention for using these, with say a VT320? is one of them >normally connected to earth? At th moment, I have the RCV+ connected to the >terminals TXD, and RCV- is earthed (how I found the system) - is this >correct? RS422/RS423 I'd have to look now. I bet someone answers before I find may notes. Obviously you don't have the DEC connector pannel or cables or this would be sorted out for you. Suffice to say if the COMMON (RS232 pin 1 and 7 are not corosponding with The right inputs the result is either inverted data or RX hears TX. Allison From tomj at wps.com Mon Jun 13 15:32:05 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tom Jennings on History channel In-Reply-To: <42AB1DAD.AD4FF1BE@msm.umr.edu> References: <42AB1DAD.AD4FF1BE@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20050613131426.B1016@localhost> On Sat, 11 Jun 2005, jim stephens wrote: > Gremlin collector on Heavy Metal show about building up an AMC Pacer nd > AMC Gremlin. > > The show missed it though, since the MC Pacer was originally a possible > candidate > for a rotary engine that was replaced by a 6 cylinder for road. If they > had refitted > the Pacer with a triced out 13B they would hav ehad a better show if > they had\ > been racing Pacer vs something with 300 hp. Well it's is wildly off-topic, but I'll say this much then shut up: An "AMC expert" was needed on short (next-day) notice. I took a few hous off from work to get to the studio, hilariously (to me) with my ancient Rambler wagon (300K miles) barely visible in the background. The show is total crap. They "pit two teams" against each other. The younger pair were idiots of such a nature that, if I were to meet them face to face, I probably would barely be polite. They ruined both cars. That they could not get better than 18 second 1/4th mile out of the Gremlin exposes their extreme stupidity (not ignorance), it's a 4.2 litre motor of substantial lineage (and the basis for the Chrysler 4.0; the 4.0 EFI head *bolts onto* the 1970 version of that motor in my Rambler). Decent induction on that motor makes easy 200 hp in a weekend, the know-nothing buffoons. Never mind that straight-line performance is a dumb measure anyways (that's TV for you). Gremlins are wonderfully engineered cars. If you laugh at them you merely point out your ignorance. Ask me off-list, but in summary it's the same chassis as their Trans-Am-winning AMX, interchangable parts over a 20+ year period, any engine made from 121 ci 4-cyl to the 401 ci V8 all fit, dozens of transmissions fit, etc. Those that appreciate well-designed architectures with interchangability will appreciate this... My current car project, a 1970 Hornet, is the chassis that the Gremlin is based upon: http://wps.com/AMC/1970-AMC-Hornet/index.html OO From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 12:57:03 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:57:03 -0400 Subject: PDF Creation on Mac OS X Message-ID: What different freeware and OSS pieces are there for The creation of PDFs on Mac OS X? I'm looking to create PDFs of some of my own documents, and don't have any Software for mac for this job, I do however have acrobat For the PC From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 12:58:18 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:58:18 -0400 Subject: Creating text PDFs from scans Message-ID: For a minor fee (perhaps around $2), I'd be willing to take scans of manuals and documents and hand retype them into searchable PDF files for distribution, retaining original images and formatting, just acting as a human OCR of sorts ;) From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 13 16:08:22 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:08:22 +0100 Subject: Fiche scanner (?) on ebay (UK). In-Reply-To: <10506132045.ZM8945@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <002701c5705c$09a5cc50$5b01a8c0@flexpc> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5206266899&fromMake Track=true Anyone know anything about the Canon MS300 Scanner? The Canon website suggests that this could scan up to 600x600dpi with some level of automation (admittedly at 16s per frame - but who's in a hurry anyway :-)). It may need the FS addon to do this (which does not seem to be part of the auction). The price right now is quite low. I already have a fiche reader, but if this could scan ... Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 13 16:12:00 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:12:00 +0000 Subject: Creating text PDFs from scans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1118697120.1845.43.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-13 at 13:58 -0400, Gary Sparkes wrote: > For a minor fee (perhaps around $2), I'd be willing to > take scans of manuals and documents and hand retype them > into searchable PDF files for distribution, retaining > original images and formatting, just acting as a human > OCR of sorts ;) Some manuals are *huge* though; it'd be a serious amount of typing! cheers Jules From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 16:09:45 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:09:45 -0700 Subject: 6 wide Qbus question Message-ID: It was with interest that I saw a posting that said no 6 wide Qbus cards existed. I have a couple I think. I have two of PCB 136 Qbus sys boards. http://members.aol.com/innfosale/ebay/136qbus1.jpg I think they are like a console card as they have eproms, LEDs, switches to set, Tst/Nor, Hit/Run and restart switches. Maybe came out of a qbus card tester? I have a SDLC card, PCB127 that I will get pics up shortly that is 6 wide but not marked qbus but is a similar board number sequence. This board has a 2652 CPU. http://members.aol.com/innfosale/ebay/127qbus1.jpg So are they qbus cards? -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 13 16:15:57 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:15:57 -0500 Subject: PDF Creation on Mac OS X References: Message-ID: <001201c5705d$1b074d60$e23cd7d1@randy> I am unsure about MAC tools the free PDF tool that I like and recommend is tiff2pdf: http://www.libtiff.org/ I believe it is available for OSX. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Sparkes" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 12:57 PM Subject: PDF Creation on Mac OS X > What different freeware and OSS pieces are there for > The creation of PDFs on Mac OS X? I'm looking to create > PDFs of some of my own documents, and don't have any > Software for mac for this job, I do however have acrobat > For the PC > > From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 13 16:08:51 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:08:51 -0500 Subject: Tom Jennings on History channel In-Reply-To: <20050613131426.B1016@localhost> References: <42AB1DAD.AD4FF1BE@msm.umr.edu> <20050613131426.B1016@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050613155708.05401878@mail> At 03:32 PM 6/13/2005, you wrote: >Well it's is wildly off-topic, but I'll say this much then shut up: >[...] >My current car project, a 1970 Hornet, is the chassis that the >Gremlin is based upon: >http://wps.com/AMC/1970-AMC-Hornet/index.html Zemco Compucruise! I put one in my 1996 Mustang Grande circa 1980. It was so futuristic. After the Mustang I got a Javelin. I kept it long after the car passed on and eventually gave the Compucruise and its sensors in 1996 to Dale Luck of Amiga graphics fame for one of his restorations. It was an early car computer kit. I remember epoxy-ing magnets to the drive shaft to monitor speed, a pair of temperature sensors, an inline optical gas consumption sensor, a brake switch, and a vacuum-driven bladder connected to the throttle. It could do cool stuff like real-time MPG, estimated time of arrival, and a cruise control that would accelerate to a preset speed on its own. The Compucruise's cruise control once lost its feedback (and/or brake shut-off, I forget) while driving the interstate and it happily floored the gas pedal until I reached under the dash to disconnect its power. My passenger was horrified. This list spoke of Compucruise in June 2002: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2002-June/thread.html#2484 - John From wpointon at earthlink.net Mon Jun 13 16:39:18 2005 From: wpointon at earthlink.net (william pointon) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:39:18 -0400 Subject: PDF Creation on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <98971162-DC53-11D9-B834-003065ED7126@earthlink.net> mac osx can create pdfs all by itself - just save a pic or text or html etc file as pdf - hope this helps - billp On Monday, Jun 13, 2005, at 13:57 US/Eastern, Gary Sparkes wrote: > What different freeware and OSS pieces are there for > The creation of PDFs on Mac OS X? I'm looking to create > PDFs of some of my own documents, and don't have any > Software for mac for this job, I do however have acrobat > For the PC > > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 13 16:42:02 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDF Creation on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <98971162-DC53-11D9-B834-003065ED7126@earthlink.net> from william pointon at "Jun 13, 5 05:39:18 pm" Message-ID: <200506132142.OAA17236@floodgap.com> > mac osx can create pdfs all by itself - just save a pic or text or html > etc file as pdf - hope this helps - billp To add to this, it is typically under the Print menu. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Premature optimization is the root of all evil. -- Donald Knuth ------------ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 13 16:42:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:42:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: <20050612172245.P21558@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 12, 5 05:26:23 pm Message-ID: > > connecting a floppy as DS0: > > if you're not willing to trace the jumpers on the drive (almost all have > at least solder pads!), then cut the traces of pins 10 and 12 and put a > jumper wire from pin 10 of the connector to where pin 12 used to connect. > > ... or, do it like RS did,... > short 10, 12, and 14 on the drive together. Then remove pins from the > connector on the cable, so that each connector has only one of 10, 12, and 14 Or (on a 3.5" drive, which has a male header-type connector), cut off pin 12 on the drive and solder a wire between pins 10 and 12 on the drive PCB. Just make sure you don't cut off the wrong pin :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 13 16:45:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:45:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: <42ACEAAB.9060608@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Jun 12, 5 09:08:43 pm Message-ID: > Well, I found a couple of 3.5" drives that can be jumpered, and the > Altos doesn't recognize 'em at all. I suspect it wants a drive that > does DD only. Wild guess. Pin 34 changed its definition at some point (IIRC it used to be Rdy/, it bacame disk_change/). Maybe that's your problem. > > > If not a TEAC FD55GFV will work as a DSQD 5.25". > > Do you have the jumper settings for that? TEAC's documentation > drives me up the wall. I have an FD55GFR that I can make boot and read, The thing that really annoys me about the Teac documentation is that the jumpers are not explained in the service manual (and on later drives with one big ASIC, you can't really work them out). OK, they're probably in the OEM manaul, or something, but if all you have is the service manual, that's not a lot of help... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 13 16:48:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:48:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dodgy IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 13, 5 10:06:16 am Message-ID: > > > I've got a couple IBM PC Convertibles that exhibit the same problem with > their power supply. When I press the power button (which is a momentary > switch) it turns on briefly: the disk drive light goes on and the drive > starts to spin or the display shows brief activity, but in either case for > only about a tenth of a second. Sometimes if I hold the switch just right > I can get it to make it through the entire memory test and up to the point Is this switch on a PCB (like the PSU PCB)? If so, 'holding the switch just rignt' might be flexing the board just right to cure a cracked track or dry joint. This does sound like a mechanical problem, a bad connection, something like that. -tony From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 13 17:57:38 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:57:38 -0500 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question References: Message-ID: <000e01c5706b$4f94a380$713cd7d1@randy> From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 4:45 PM >> Well, I found a couple of 3.5" drives that can be jumpered, and the >> Altos doesn't recognize 'em at all. I suspect it wants a drive that >> does DD only. > > Wild guess. Pin 34 changed its definition at some point (IIRC it used to > be Rdy/, it bacame disk_change/). Maybe that's your problem. > >> >> > If not a TEAC FD55GFV will work as a DSQD 5.25". >> >> Do you have the jumper settings for that? TEAC's documentation >> drives me up the wall. I have an FD55GFR that I can make boot and read, > > The thing that really annoys me about the Teac documentation is that the > jumpers are not explained in the service manual (and on later drives with > one big ASIC, you can't really work them out). OK, they're probably in > the OEM manaul, or something, but if all you have is the service manual, > that's not a lot of help... > > -tony I'll lookup the exact Teac jumpers but not only do you have to change the two speed jumper but you must make sure pin 2 is grounded to select the correct speed. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctech at randy482.com Mon Jun 13 18:00:01 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:00:01 -0500 Subject: Dodgy IBM PC Convertible power supply References: Message-ID: <001d01c5706b$a4bf4fe0$713cd7d1@randy> From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 4:48 PM >> I've got a couple IBM PC Convertibles that exhibit the same problem with >> their power supply. When I press the power button (which is a momentary >> switch) it turns on briefly: the disk drive light goes on and the drive >> starts to spin or the display shows brief activity, but in either case >> for >> only about a tenth of a second. Sometimes if I hold the switch just >> right >> I can get it to make it through the entire memory test and up to the >> point > > Is this switch on a PCB (like the PSU PCB)? If so, 'holding the switch > just rignt' might be flexing the board just right to cure a cracked track > or dry joint. > > This does sound like a mechanical problem, a bad connection, something > like that. > > -tony That's why a good magnifying glass is a must for a good tool kit. Clean, inspect, repair! Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 13 18:09:43 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:09:43 -0500 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question References: <000e01c5706b$4f94a380$713cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <000c01c5706c$ff7a2120$f43cd7d1@randy> From: "Randy McLaughlin" Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 5:57 PM > From: "Tony Duell" > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 4:45 PM > > >>> Well, I found a couple of 3.5" drives that can be jumpered, and the >>> Altos doesn't recognize 'em at all. I suspect it wants a drive that >>> does DD only. >> >> Wild guess. Pin 34 changed its definition at some point (IIRC it used to >> be Rdy/, it bacame disk_change/). Maybe that's your problem. >> >>> >>> > If not a TEAC FD55GFV will work as a DSQD 5.25". >>> >>> Do you have the jumper settings for that? TEAC's documentation >>> drives me up the wall. I have an FD55GFR that I can make boot and read, >> >> The thing that really annoys me about the Teac documentation is that the >> jumpers are not explained in the service manual (and on later drives with >> one big ASIC, you can't really work them out). OK, they're probably in >> the OEM manaul, or something, but if all you have is the service manual, >> that's not a lot of help... >> >> -tony > > > I'll lookup the exact Teac jumpers but not only do you have to change the > two speed jumper but you must make sure pin 2 is grounded to select the > correct speed. > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com To make the Teac 1.2mb drive act like a QD drive there are two options: Jumper I on, LG off, low on pin 2 of the 34 pin connector or Jumper I on, LG on, high on pin 2 of the 34 pin connector. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 13 18:19:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dodgy IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've got a couple IBM PC Convertibles that exhibit the same problem with > > their power supply. When I press the power button (which is a momentary > > switch) it turns on briefly: the disk drive light goes on and the drive > > starts to spin or the display shows brief activity, but in either case for > > only about a tenth of a second. Sometimes if I hold the switch just right > > I can get it to make it through the entire memory test and up to the point > > Is this switch on a PCB (like the PSU PCB)? If so, 'holding the switch > just rignt' might be flexing the board just right to cure a cracked track > or dry joint. I'm pretty sure it's not that. I would doubt each board would have come down with a hairline fracture. > This does sound like a mechanical problem, a bad connection, something > like that. That's what I'm thinking, but then maybe not. I've tried cleaning both the power connector and the switch several times with contact cleaner, but that had no effect. I'm not ruling it out yet, but because of the way this thing powers on sometimes and not others, I'm suspecting a bad capacitor or something(?) Will have to troubleshoot more. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jun 13 18:33:18 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:33:18 -0500 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: <000c01c5706c$ff7a2120$f43cd7d1@randy> References: <000e01c5706b$4f94a380$713cd7d1@randy> <000c01c5706c$ff7a2120$f43cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <42AE17BE.3060301@mdrconsult.com> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Randy McLaughlin" > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 5:57 PM > > >> From: "Tony Duell" >> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 4:45 PM >> >> >>>> Well, I found a couple of 3.5" drives that can be jumpered, and the >>>> Altos doesn't recognize 'em at all. I suspect it wants a drive that >>>> does DD only. >>> >>> >>> Wild guess. Pin 34 changed its definition at some point (IIRC it used to >>> be Rdy/, it bacame disk_change/). Maybe that's your problem. >>> >>>> >>>> > If not a TEAC FD55GFV will work as a DSQD 5.25". >>>> >>>> Do you have the jumper settings for that? TEAC's documentation >>>> drives me up the wall. I have an FD55GFR that I can make boot and >>>> read, >>> >>> >>> The thing that really annoys me about the Teac documentation is that the >>> jumpers are not explained in the service manual (and on later drives >>> with >>> one big ASIC, you can't really work them out). OK, they're probably in >>> the OEM manaul, or something, but if all you have is the service manual, >>> that's not a lot of help... >>> >>> -tony >> >> >> >> I'll lookup the exact Teac jumpers but not only do you have to change >> the two speed jumper but you must make sure pin 2 is grounded to >> select the correct speed. >> >> Randy >> www.s100-manuals.com > > > To make the Teac 1.2mb drive act like a QD drive there are two options: > > Jumper I on, LG off, low on pin 2 of the 34 pin connector or Jumper I > on, LG on, high on pin 2 of the 34 pin connector. Thanks. I think it was the flip-flop on pin 2 that was hammering me. I'm suddenly in the middle of a Tivoli TSM migration, but when things cool off abit I'll try this. Doc From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 13 18:39:14 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:39:14 -0500 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question References: <000e01c5706b$4f94a380$713cd7d1@randy><000c01c5706c$ff7a2120$f43cd7d1@randy> <42AE17BE.3060301@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <000e01c57071$1f5dbf20$6b92d6d1@randy> From: "Doc Shipley" Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:33 PM > Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> To make the Teac 1.2mb drive act like a QD drive there are two options: >> >> Jumper I on, LG off, low on pin 2 of the 34 pin connector or Jumper I on, >> LG on, high on pin 2 of the 34 pin connector. > > Thanks. I think it was the flip-flop on pin 2 that was hammering me. > > I'm suddenly in the middle of a Tivoli TSM migration, but when things > cool off abit I'll try this. > > > Doc You would think they would have included a jumper to select the speed and ignore pin 2. The best thing would be to cut the trace and ground it so the signal doesn't go back to the controller. As a matter of fact cutting pin 34 often helps. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From river at zip.com.au Mon Jun 13 19:04:19 2005 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:04:19 +1000 Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board Message-ID: <005601c57074$9d4e5180$6429083d@river> Hi, Thanks for your replies. I found the relevant information. I have an extensive inventory and can source the parts and get this poor, battered board back to its old self again. However, looking through the doco I noticed that the 8800B requires a display/control and interface boards. A question for those of you that own a MITS8800 - does it need those boards for a turnkey system? Can I plug the CPU board into the backplane and run it without the d/c and i/f cards, assuming I set up the ROM and RAM cards for the system? If not, (since I do not have the d/c and i/f cards) I'll have to try and build them from the cct diagrams I have obtained. This is do-able (but a lot of work) if I can get my hands on some blank S100 w/wrap boards, but I noticed there's a 1702 EPROM chip and I'd need to get the memory map for this chip to burn my own. Failing that, and it's all too hard and bothersome for me, is there anyone that would need a repaired 8800 CPU card for trade or anything similar? rgds river From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 13 19:12:04 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board Message-ID: <200506140012.RAA09885@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "river" > >Hi, > >Thanks for your replies. I found the relevant information. > >I have an extensive inventory and can source the parts and get this poor, battered board back to its old self again. However, looking through the doco I noticed that the 8800B requires a display/control and interface boards. A question for those of you that own a MITS8800 - does it need those boards for a turnkey system? Can I plug the CPU board into the backplane and run it without the d/c and i/f cards, assuming I set up the ROM and RAM cards for the system? If not, (since I do not have the d/c and i/f cards) I'll have to try and build them from the cct diagrams I have obtained. This is do-able (but a lot of work) if I can get my hands on some blank S100 w/wrap boards, but I noticed there's a 1702 EPROM chip and I'd need to get the memory map for this chip to burn my own. > >Failing that, and it's all too hard and bothersome for me, is there anyone that would need a repaired 8800 CPU card for trade or anything similar? > >rgds >river > Hi It should work on a turnkey. Almost everything goes through the S100 bus. Only the direct connect of the data bus goes directly between the panel and the CPU board. I don't think that is needed. You will have to have code residing at address 0000. This is not common. Most expected a working front panel that could load a boot address. Some ROM boards have a way to be at 0000 after reset and then switch to someplace else once things are booted. Don't give up on it. When there is a will, there will be a way. Dwight From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 13 19:40:31 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:40:31 -0400 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question Message-ID: <0II10056QTV6A039@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Wild-hair floppy drive question > From: "Randy McLaughlin" > Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:39:14 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >From: "Doc Shipley" >Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:33 PM > > >> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >>> To make the Teac 1.2mb drive act like a QD drive there are two options: >>> >>> Jumper I on, LG off, low on pin 2 of the 34 pin connector or Jumper I on, >>> LG on, high on pin 2 of the 34 pin connector. >> >> Thanks. I think it was the flip-flop on pin 2 that was hammering me. >> >> I'm suddenly in the middle of a Tivoli TSM migration, but when things >> cool off abit I'll try this. >> >> >> Doc > >You would think they would have included a jumper to select the speed and >ignore pin 2. > >The best thing would be to cut the trace and ground it so the signal doesn't >go back to the controller. As a matter of fact cutting pin 34 often helps. > Actually on some varients the jumper does exactly that, with a pair to select if the "input" are high or low another only has a single jumper to select low with a pull up. I have five different FD55GFx flavors with boards that are markedly differnt. Most annoying. But they have proven to be reliable. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 13 19:44:14 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:44:14 -0400 Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board Message-ID: <0II1009H0U1DJJR1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: MITS 8800B CPU Board > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:12:04 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>From: "river" >> >>Hi, >> >>Thanks for your replies. I found the relevant information. >> >>I have an extensive inventory and can source the parts and get this poor, >battered board back to its old self again. However, looking through the doco I >noticed that the 8800B requires a display/control and interface boards. A >question for those of you that own a MITS8800 - does it need those boards for a >turnkey system? Can I plug the CPU board into the backplane and run it without >the d/c and i/f cards, assuming I set up the ROM and RAM cards for the system? >If not, (since I do not have the d/c and i/f cards) I'll have to try and build >them from the cct diagrams I have obtained. This is do-able (but a lot of work) >if I can get my hands on some blank S100 w/wrap boards, but I noticed there's a >1702 EPROM chip and I'd need to get the memory map for this chip to burn my own. >> >>Failing that, and it's all too hard and bothersome for me, is there anyone that >would need a repaired 8800 CPU card for trade or anything similar? >> >>rgds >>river >> > >Hi > It should work on a turnkey. Almost everything goes >through the S100 bus. Only the direct connect of the >data bus goes directly between the panel and the CPU board. >I don't think that is needed. You will have to have code >residing at address 0000. This is not common. Most >expected a working front panel that could load a boot >address. > Some ROM boards have a way to be at 0000 after reset >and then switch to someplace else once things are booted. > Don't give up on it. When there is a will, there will >be a way. >Dwight Yes, you will have to have rom at 0000h though and Mwrite was derived and delivered from the front pannel if memory serves. So that means ram will have to be set up to not require Mwrite. Either that or you will have to through something small together to create Mwrite. As to mapping rom out once operational, thats a later problem. It's fairly easy to do. Allison From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jun 13 20:32:39 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:32:39 -0500 Subject: Check out artical on Data Format Storage Message-ID: <00a001c57080$f4d08c00$66406b43@66067007> In the July 2005 issue of Technology Review there's an article about the over 16,000 formats of data that the NARA has store and make available forever. They have two companies working on away to store all this data in their correct data format but be able to review it at anytime in the future. From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 13 20:34:20 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:34:20 -0500 Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board References: <200506140012.RAA09885@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000b01c57081$338937d0$203cd7d1@randy> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:12 PM > >From: "river" >> >>Hi, >> >>Thanks for your replies. I found the relevant information. >> >>I have an extensive inventory and can source the parts and get this poor, > battered board back to its old self again. However, looking through the > doco I > noticed that the 8800B requires a display/control and interface boards. A > question for those of you that own a MITS8800 - does it need those boards > for a > turnkey system? Can I plug the CPU board into the backplane and run it > without > the d/c and i/f cards, assuming I set up the ROM and RAM cards for the > system? > If not, (since I do not have the d/c and i/f cards) I'll have to try and > build > them from the cct diagrams I have obtained. This is do-able (but a lot of > work) > if I can get my hands on some blank S100 w/wrap boards, but I noticed > there's a > 1702 EPROM chip and I'd need to get the memory map for this chip to burn > my own. >> >>Failing that, and it's all too hard and bothersome for me, is there anyone >>that > would need a repaired 8800 CPU card for trade or anything similar? >> >>rgds >>river >> > > Hi > It should work on a turnkey. Almost everything goes > through the S100 bus. Only the direct connect of the > data bus goes directly between the panel and the CPU board. > I don't think that is needed. You will have to have code > residing at address 0000. This is not common. Most > expected a working front panel that could load a boot > address. > Some ROM boards have a way to be at 0000 after reset > and then switch to someplace else once things are booted. > Don't give up on it. When there is a will, there will > be a way. > Dwight It is also easy to generate mwrite with a chip or chips glued upside down on the CPU card with no "real" modification to the board. By no real modification I mean no cutting of traces just solder tack a couple of wires. I'll see about looking it up, many CPU boards have mwrite as an option. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 13 20:06:05 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Creating text PDFs from scans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55493.207.145.53.202.1118711165.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Gary wrote: > For a minor fee (perhaps around $2), I'd be willing to > take scans of manuals and documents and hand retype them > into searchable PDF files for distribution, retaining > original images and formatting, just acting as a human > OCR of sorts ;) I can't imagine that you mean $2 per document, so is that $2 per page? From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Jun 13 21:01:09 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:01:09 -0500 Subject: Replacing drives on classic systems was Wild-hair floppy drive question References: <0II10014SE3WEYB2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <00b001c5704f$8287eac0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <002401c57084$f2f40700$203cd7d1@randy> When replacing drives in classic systems there are some things to keep in mind: Newer drives are mainly compatible but not 100%. Today we can go to the local store buy a drive (floppy to hard drive) plug it in and expect it to just work. Things have changed. To install a drive in a classic computer it is easiest with documentation. With newer drives study the use of "modified" pins on 34 pin connector (2, 10, 12, 14, 16, and 34 especially). I have some useful information on disks and disk drives on my website. Pin 2 - 8" drives low to reduce write current for some tracks (but not all) - PC drives high to reduce write current for the entire drive and optionally change rotational speed. Pin 10 - Classic 5.25" DS0 - PC motor on for drive A on controller side, unused on drive side (part of cable twist). Pin 12 - Classic 5.25" DS1 - PC DS for drive A (part of twist). Pin 14 - Classic 5.25" DS2 - PC DS for drive B (part of twist). Pin 16 - Classic 5.25" Motor on - PC motor on for drive B for controller always motor on for drive (part of cable twist). Pin 34 - Sometimes ready sometimes disk change, either verify or cut. There are lots of other options to take into account all I can say is don't expect to add a drive to a classic system and expect it to just work. Often it takes a lot of head scratching and reading. Please note I did not mention that there are lots of jumperable optoins on many systems. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From djg at drs-c4i.com Mon Jun 13 21:33:40 2005 From: djg at drs-c4i.com (David Gesswein) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:33:40 -0400 Subject: Stardent 19" workstation monitor Message-ID: <200506140233.j5E2Xer25829@drs-c4i.com> >Silly question, but what does a Stardent workstation consist of? > We had one at work a while ago. It was a 4 foot rack with the computer made up of large cards with lots of custom IC's with heatsinks. Also had standard disk drives and the 1/4? inch cartridge tapedrives. >From what I understood it had good graphics capability for its time and was reasonably fast. I never used it. From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 21:50:56 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:50:56 -0400 Subject: Creating text PDFs from scans In-Reply-To: <55493.207.145.53.202.1118711165.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: Ugh, I was thinking at the time $20 for 50 pages or so Individual details worked out per document of course Wrote that email in math class and wasn't really thinking! On 6/13/05 9:06 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: > Gary wrote: >> For a minor fee (perhaps around $2), I'd be willing to >> take scans of manuals and documents and hand retype them >> into searchable PDF files for distribution, retaining >> original images and formatting, just acting as a human >> OCR of sorts ;) > > I can't imagine that you mean $2 per document, so is that > $2 per page? > From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 21:50:56 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:50:56 -0400 Subject: Creating text PDFs from scans In-Reply-To: <55493.207.145.53.202.1118711165.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: Ugh, I was thinking at the time $20 for 50 pages or so Individual details worked out per document of course Wrote that email in math class and wasn't really thinking! On 6/13/05 9:06 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: > Gary wrote: >> For a minor fee (perhaps around $2), I'd be willing to >> take scans of manuals and documents and hand retype them >> into searchable PDF files for distribution, retaining >> original images and formatting, just acting as a human >> OCR of sorts ;) > > I can't imagine that you mean $2 per document, so is that > $2 per page? > From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 21:52:01 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:52:01 -0400 Subject: Creating text PDFs from scans In-Reply-To: <55493.207.145.53.202.1118711165.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: Quick tack on to my last reply - shipping and handling Taken care of outside of that listed price - Damn I feel stupid for that ;) On 6/13/05 9:06 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: > Gary wrote: >> For a minor fee (perhaps around $2), I'd be willing to >> take scans of manuals and documents and hand retype them >> into searchable PDF files for distribution, retaining >> original images and formatting, just acting as a human >> OCR of sorts ;) > > I can't imagine that you mean $2 per document, so is that > $2 per page? > From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 21:52:01 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:52:01 -0400 Subject: Creating text PDFs from scans In-Reply-To: <55493.207.145.53.202.1118711165.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: Quick tack on to my last reply - shipping and handling Taken care of outside of that listed price - Damn I feel stupid for that ;) On 6/13/05 9:06 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: > Gary wrote: >> For a minor fee (perhaps around $2), I'd be willing to >> take scans of manuals and documents and hand retype them >> into searchable PDF files for distribution, retaining >> original images and formatting, just acting as a human >> OCR of sorts ;) > > I can't imagine that you mean $2 per document, so is that > $2 per page? > From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 13 21:52:37 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Stardent 19" workstation monitor In-Reply-To: <200506140233.j5E2Xer25829@drs-c4i.com> Message-ID: > >From what I understood it had good graphics capability for its time and > was reasonably fast. I never used it. Understatement. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 22:11:52 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:11:52 -0400 Subject: Creating text PDFs from scans In-Reply-To: <55493.207.145.53.202.1118711165.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: Another note - Unless you want a plain text file, I'll need proper scans of the documents ! Geeze, I really need to think of this stuff all at Once, heh... I'm doing this because as I've probably Stated, I've nothing doing over the summer and need A time occupying fun (for me at least, I enjoy typing) Thing to do, that might actually toss a little money My way! Sorry for all the emails, this is the last, I promise! On 6/13/05 9:06 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: > Gary wrote: >> For a minor fee (perhaps around $2), I'd be willing to >> take scans of manuals and documents and hand retype them >> into searchable PDF files for distribution, retaining >> original images and formatting, just acting as a human >> OCR of sorts ;) > > I can't imagine that you mean $2 per document, so is that > $2 per page? > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 13 22:13:30 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:13:30 -0400 Subject: Found a PDP-8 today! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050613231330.00a08e10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I went with a buddy of mine to pick up some DEC equipment today. I got to talking to the equipment owner and asked if he had a PDP-8. He did! But it's already on E-bay :-( I took a look at it anyway and it's NICE! If anyone is interested in buying a PDP-8, be sure and check it out. Unlike most "systems" this one is a complete and working system and not just a collection of cards, boxs and bits and pieces. This one has a PT reader, PT punch, CPU, THREE RK-05 drives and an interface (it was once a controller for a GenRad test system.) It's in a rack and everything is mounted the way it should be and everything is cabled up and ready to operate. Since it was a test system controller, it probably has a butt-load of IO cards too. Everything works and it boots and runs OS-8. The three drives are all aligned and you can swap the disks into any drive and read them. The system is clean and in VERY nice condition. It's wrapped in shrink wrap so the picture on E-bay doesn't do it justice. . Me? I got a CAR FULL of DEC software and documentation! Joe From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Jun 13 22:25:32 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found a PDP-8 today! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050613231330.00a08e10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050614032532.31353.qmail@web81301.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, Joe. The guy who's got it up on eBay actually offered it to the list first a little while ago. But I guess it's a lot more noticeable when you are there in his warehouse and he shows it to you up close. :) It does indeed look like a very nice system. --Bill From river at zip.com.au Tue Jun 14 01:23:21 2005 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:23:21 +1000 Subject: MITS8800 CPU Board Message-ID: <004701c570a9$90b397c0$532f083d@river> Hi, Great, thanks for the info. I'm sourcing a few S100 protoboards, so I'll be able to wirewrap a board with all the relevant RAM, ROM and I/O. I'll probably use later generation chips such as 62256 for RAM and 6264 for ROM. I can then put in the 8251 and 8255 for serial and parallel ports, respectively. Is that heresy in regards to these old boards? It's not an issue to me starting ROM at 0000h. I've written a few 8080 debug/monitors for my old Multibus stuff so I can always use one of these - or mod it accordingly. I've only got a 6-slot motherboard and a Northstar ZCB processor board, S100 ROM board and some Dynabyte RAM boards and I was going to use the motherboard and original S100 boards with this system. This means the 8800CPU board will be in a small 2-slot system - the CPU board and the RAM/ROM/IO board I'm going to make. I'll check the MWRITE signals and see what I can do, or if you have the info then that's even better. Just one more thing.... I suppose it's possible to use the 8800CPU bd without the power regulation components if I ensure the correct voltages go through the correct pins on the bus. I can then use an old spare PC power supply, instead of creating a new supply. Naturally, this would entail that no other S100 board can be used due to their on-board regulators. This isn't an issue if I build my own S100 boards, without regulation, for this system. Again, thanks for your help. This is my first foray into S100 stuff, and makes a nice change from Multibus. rgds river From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 01:28:30 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:28:30 -0500 Subject: MITS8800 CPU Board In-Reply-To: <004701c570a9$90b397c0$532f083d@river> References: <004701c570a9$90b397c0$532f083d@river> Message-ID: On 6/14/05, river wrote: > ... later generation chips such as 62256 for RAM and 6264 for ROM. I can then put in the 8251 and 8255 for serial and parallel ports, respectively. Is that heresy in regards to these old boards? Not to me - after all, you can always yank your new board and put back in boards of the period if need be. It's a lot simpler to wire up a 62256 than a square foot of 2016s, and a lot more power efficient. -ethan From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Jun 14 01:39:03 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:39:03 -0500 Subject: MITS8800 CPU Board References: <004701c570a9$90b397c0$532f083d@river> Message-ID: <000c01c570ab$c4fab390$e13dd7d1@randy> From: "river" Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 1:23 AM > Hi, > > Great, thanks for the info. > > I'm sourcing a few S100 protoboards, so I'll be able to wirewrap a board > with all the relevant RAM, ROM and I/O. I'll probably use later generation > chips such as 62256 for RAM and 6264 for ROM. I can then put in the 8251 > and 8255 for serial and parallel ports, respectively. Is that heresy in > regards to these old boards? > > It's not an issue to me starting ROM at 0000h. I've written a few 8080 > debug/monitors for my old Multibus stuff so I can always use one of > these - or mod it accordingly. > > I've only got a 6-slot motherboard and a Northstar ZCB processor board, > S100 ROM board and some Dynabyte RAM boards and I was going to use the > motherboard and original S100 boards with this system. This means the > 8800CPU board will be in a small 2-slot system - the CPU board and the > RAM/ROM/IO board I'm going to make. > > I'll check the MWRITE signals and see what I can do, or if you have the > info then that's even better. > > Just one more thing.... I suppose it's possible to use the 8800CPU bd > without the power regulation components if I ensure the correct voltages > go through the correct pins on the bus. I can then use an old spare PC > power supply, instead of creating a new supply. Naturally, this would > entail that no other S100 board can be used due to their on-board > regulators. This isn't an issue if I build my own S100 boards, without > regulation, for this system. > > Again, thanks for your help. This is my first foray into S100 stuff, and > makes a nice change from Multibus. > > rgds > river A few manufacturers used S100 bus with regulated power supplies including some CompuPro systems. It doesn't hurt anything to plug in a card with onboard regulators it just won't work without bypassing the regulators. Mwrite is pwr nor pout, memory cards can use pwr I/O cards can use pout but a 7402 can generate mwrite. The NorthStar CPU can do most of what you want. If you piggy back RAM and EEPROM and add a little logic then all you need is I/O. The NorthStar CPU generates mwrite. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 14 02:07:23 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 03:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Creating text PDFs from scans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200506140709.DAA13608@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Geeze, I really need to think of this stuff all at > Once, heh... I'm doing this because as I've probably > Stated, I've nothing doing over the summer and need > A time occupying fun (for me at least, I enjoy typing) > Thing to do, that might actually toss a little money > My way! Sorry for all the emails, this is the last, > I promise! Hm, those initial caps look..marked. GOSATMI...hmm, TBFNGZV... IMTASOG... okay, I give up. What's the scoop? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jun 14 03:54:50 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 04:54:50 -0400 Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board Message-ID: <20050614085449.HQEG5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >I have an extensive inventory and can source the parts and get this poor, battered >board back to its old self again. However, looking through the doco I noticed that >the 8800B requires a display/control and interface boards. A question for those of >you that own a MITS8800 - does it need those boards for a turnkey system? Can I >plug the CPU board into the backplane and run it without the d/c and i/f cards, >assuming I set up the ROM and RAM cards for the system? If not, (since I do not >have the d/c and i/f cards) I'll have to try and build them from the cct diagrams >I have obtained. This is do-able (but a lot of work) if I can get my hands on some >blank S100 w/wrap boards, but I noticed there's a 1702 EPROM chip and I'd need to >get the memory map for this chip to burn my own. The two main things the front panel provides to the running systems (not counting debug functions) are: - The front panel generates the MEMORY WRITE signal to the bus. If you do not have a front panel, then you will need to generate this signal with a little "glue logic". - The front panel also generates a POWER ON JUMP, allowing the processor to launch at an address other than 0000 - this is necessary if you want to run an operating system such as CP/M which requires RAM at 0000. If you don't need RAM at 0000, then just put your bootstrap ROM at 0000 and you should be good to go. If you do need RAM at 0000, then you will need to add a bit of circutry to allow your rom to "MOVE". One simple way, assuming you want to put your ROM at an address >= 8000 is to upon RESET, double-map your ROM to it's correct address (>= 8000) AND at 0000. While doing this, you need to pull the phantom signal to disable any RAM at 0000 - Begin your bootstrap code with a JMP to it's correct address (+3) ... As soon as you see an instruction fetch with the high bit set, release the double-map at 0000 and phantom, and your system will be operating normally from the ROM at the higher address. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 14 03:58:58 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:58:58 +0000 Subject: Stardent 19" workstation monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1118739538.3247.7.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-13 at 22:52 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > >From what I understood it had good graphics capability for its time and > > was reasonably fast. I never used it. > > Understatement. > > William Donzelli Hmm, anyone have any images so I know what to look for? It's *very* doubtful we have any kind of CPU box - let alone two, given that we have two displays. If it's some faceless metal crate it's just possible something's lurking in storage though. I suspect it's more likely that somewhere along the line someone's sourced a couple of the screens from a Stardent setup that was being broken up, then used them on something else that we *do* have, and they've eventually passed the whole lot onto us. Possibly they were used with some of our DEC or Sun stuff... cheers Jules From spedraja at ono.com Tue Jun 14 04:38:40 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:38:40 +0200 Subject: Asunto: Found a PDP-8 today! Message-ID: <424AACBE0003D2C1@resmta03.ono.com> > Me? I got a CAR FULL of DEC software and documentation! Send an advice the day that you want get rid of all the stuff, please. Get DEC items like PDP8's in Europe is more difficult day by day. Regards Sergio From mokuba at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 05:26:18 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:26:18 -0400 Subject: PDF Creation on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <200506132142.OAA17236@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Woops, Now I feel doubly stupid :) On 6/13/05 5:42 PM, "Cameron Kaiser" wrote: >> mac osx can create pdfs all by itself - just save a pic or text or html >> etc file as pdf - hope this helps - billp > > To add to this, it is typically under the Print menu. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 14 05:50:08 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:50:08 -0400 Subject: MITS8800 CPU Board Message-ID: <0II200LS2M319LOB@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: MITS8800 CPU Board > From: "river" > Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:23:21 +1000 > To: > >Hi, > >Great, thanks for the info. > >I'm sourcing a few S100 protoboards, so I'll be able to wirewrap a board with all the relevant RAM, ROM and I/O. I'll probably use later generation chips such as 62256 for RAM and 6264 for ROM. I can then put in the 8251 and 8255 for serial and parallel ports, respectively. Is that heresy in regards to these old boards? > >It's not an issue to me starting ROM at 0000h. I've written a few 8080 > >I've only got a 6-slot motherboard and a Northstar ZCB processor board, S100 ROM board and some Dynabyte RAM boards and I was going to use the motherboard and original S100 boards with this system. This means the 8800CPU board will be in a small 2-slot system - the CPU board and the RAM/ROM/IO board I'm going to make. The NS* ZCB has a power on jump (POJ) and reset logic so you dont need rom at Zero plus it also generates Mwrite. Besides being Z80 it's a better CPU to use. >Just one more thing.... I suppose it's possible to use the 8800CPU bd >without the power regulation components if I ensure the correct voltages go through the correct pins on the bus. I can then use an old spare PC power supply, instead of creating a new supply. Naturally, this would entail that no other S100 board can be used due to their on-board regulators. This isn't an issue if I build my own S100 boards, without regulation, for this system. You can add regulation a trivial thing. However using a PC supply is fine (you'll need -5 -12 +5 +12). Regular S100 cards can be used if you bypass the regulators. > >Again, thanks for your help. This is my first foray into S100 stuff, and makes a nice change from Multibus. Nice change?!? You will be messing with hardware much more. S100 you'll find there are a few quirks like noisy backplanes and cards that are S100 but not always compatable with the CPU in use. Allison From allain at panix.com Tue Jun 14 06:31:55 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:31:55 -0400 Subject: Found a PDP-8 today! References: <3.0.6.32.20050613231330.00a08e10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00c101c570d4$abef6de0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5207512513 I had some "words" to say about the quality of the photo but withheld them since this is a Classiccmp person. Looks like it was photographed through a window. Clean up that picture, Tom! John A. From allain at panix.com Tue Jun 14 06:51:26 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:51:26 -0400 Subject: Stardent 19" workstation monitor References: Message-ID: <00e101c570d7$665ede20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >> From what I understood it had good graphics capability >> for its time and was reasonably fast. I never used it. > Understatement. Some Factoids: Formed from the two companies Stellar and Ardent, then sold to the company Kubota. Essentially the reimagining of the original Apollo computer for Supercomputer visualization. Perhaps 1986-1991. I'd agree that the display without the computer (display processor) is pretty limited. John A. From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Jun 14 08:07:01 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:07:01 -0400 Subject: Paging Roger Merchberger Message-ID: <608b95c9d54fe396af03c40c964dbce5@xlisper.mv.com> Sorry to send this to the entire list but I have been unable to contact Roger by private email. Apparently, my messages get put in his junk mail file. Roger: Please call me at 603-472-2389 to discuss the HHC Basic ROMs. From asher.onelist at crumbly.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jun 14 08:23:38 2005 From: asher.onelist at crumbly.freeserve.co.uk (Asher Hoskins) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:23:38 +0100 Subject: Seeking BBC Domesday system In-Reply-To: <429F4BDF.704@gifford.co.uk> References: <200506021747.j52Hl1hl009561@onyx.spiritone.com> <429F4BDF.704@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050614132338.GA1823@jelly.local> On Thu, Jun 02, 2005 at 07:11:43PM +0100, John Honniball wrote: > Er, no. It's spelt "Domesday". Here's an informative page about > the system: > > http://www.atsf.co.uk/dottext/domesday.html Which also contains an online version. > I saw one running in the Science Museum (London) a few years ago; > anybody know if it's still there? I've just popped into the Science Museum (I work next door at Imperial College) and it's still there, running the community disc. For anyone who wants to visit it's on level 1 in the "surveying" exhibit, on the right hand side of the balcony overlooking the hall containing The Rocket train. The museum's free to get into BTW. It's labelled "Example of a Geographical Information System". The BBC micro's hidden away inside the stand sadly, only the trackball is exposed. Asher. From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Jun 14 09:00:49 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:00:49 -0400 Subject: Stardent 19" workstation monitor References: <1118739538.3247.7.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000b01c570e9$791f4330$0100a8c0@screamer> Do you ever recall seeing a poster that shows the whole surface of the earth under cloudless skies? This famous composite photo was produced on a Stellar / Stardent machine. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 4:58 AM Subject: Re: Stardent 19" workstation monitor > On Mon, 2005-06-13 at 22:52 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >> > >From what I understood it had good graphics capability for its time >> > >and >> > was reasonably fast. I never used it. >> >> Understatement. >> >> William Donzelli > > Hmm, anyone have any images so I know what to look for? It's *very* > doubtful we have any kind of CPU box - let alone two, given that we have > two displays. If it's some faceless metal crate it's just possible > something's lurking in storage though. > > I suspect it's more likely that somewhere along the line someone's > sourced a couple of the screens from a Stardent setup that was being > broken up, then used them on something else that we *do* have, and > they've eventually passed the whole lot onto us. Possibly they were used > with some of our DEC or Sun stuff... > > cheers > > Jules > > From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Jun 14 09:15:55 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:15:55 -0700 Subject: Stardent 19" workstation monitor In-Reply-To: <1118739538.3247.7.camel@weka.localdomain> (Jules Richardson's message of "Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:58:58 +0000") References: <1118739538.3247.7.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200506141415.j5EEFthP050848@lots.reanimators.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, anyone have any images so I know what to look for? It's *very* > doubtful we have any kind of CPU box - let alone two, given that we have > two displays. If it's some faceless metal crate it's just possible > something's lurking in storage though. You could look for a book, _The Architecture of Supercomputers: Titan, a case study_, Siewiorek and Koopman, Academic Press, 1991, ISBN 0-12-643060-8. It's got pictures of a Stardent Titan. And yes, when it's closed up it looks a lot like a big painted metal box, albeit a bit taller than your typical deskside box. Sellam could perhaps ask Gordon Bell. -Frank McConnell From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jun 14 09:28:30 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:28:30 -0500 Subject: Found a PDP-8 today! In-Reply-To: <00c101c570d4$abef6de0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <3.0.6.32.20050613231330.00a08e10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <00c101c570d4$abef6de0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <42AEE98E.7030301@oldskool.org> John Allain wrote: >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5207512513 > > I had some "words" to say about the quality of the photo but withheld > them since this is a Classiccmp person. Looks like it was > photographed through a window. Clean up that picture, Tom! You do understand that the machine is wrapped up in shipping wrap, yes? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ed at groenenberg.net Wed Jun 8 15:30:02 2005 From: ed at groenenberg.net (Ed) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:30:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Looking for a TU55/TC11 Message-ID: <52399.192.168.1.1.1118262602.squirrel@192.168.1.1> Ok, the matter is simple, I'm looking for a TU55/TC11 combo. I may have some other PDP material in trade/swap, let's talk in that case. If the TU55/TC11 it is only for sale, we can still talk, as I don't expect it to be without cost. Email me directly, no need to start another thread...... Ed From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 01:12:37 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need a source of 7501 micros In-Reply-To: <429F443A.29050.53C6E2D5@localhost> Message-ID: <20050609061237.5648.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> So has anyone tried substituting a 6510 for a 7501? --- Hans Franke wrote: > Am 2 Jun 2005 11:01 meinte Allison: > > >Subject: need a source of 7501 micros > > > From: Chris M > > > Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:16:31 -0700 (PDT) > > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > > >....as used in the Commodore Plus 4. Preferably > new > > >*lol*. Hey...you never know... > > > You'd be mighty lucky to get what you want. > > > The 7501 is a mask programmed 4bit micro with LCD > driver > > containing a 1024byte program rom and 96 nibbles > of ram. > > Where used it's a custom part due to the rom. > > > Know the part well as I used to be the product > engineer. > > Well, seams to be a close miss :) > > The 7501 is a Commodore 6502 or to be more exact, > its > the HMOS version of the NMOS 6510 as used in the > C64, > which is a rather plain 6502 with one 7 bit paralell > port on chip. Later on the 8501 was done as a result > of another process change, eventualy leading to the > 8502 as used in the C128. > > So, if you search for a 7501 replacement, any 6510 > might do it ... with some additional soldering, > since > Commodore shifted the pins arround with every > version. > > > Gruss > H. > -- > VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in > Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 9 02:04:05 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Televideo Personal Mini In-Reply-To: <009301c56c68$a87c8aa0$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <20050609070406.43662.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> did you bid on it? then it would be in your "didn't win" section. If you have it still, I'd appreciate if you sent me the url, I'd like to look at it. Thanks. --- SP wrote: > This was sold in the beginning of the 80's. I have > some Ad's from the > Professional Computer Magazines edited in Spain in > this epoch. It had > Infoshare for OS (the early version of Netware) and > used one 80186 for > processor. There was one in eBay recently in which I > was interested, but I > had bad luck :-) > > Regards > Sergio > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris M" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 6:17 AM > Subject: Televideo Personal Mini > > > > Anyone got one? What about just the software? I'd > be > > interested in hearing from anyone that knows about > or > > better yet has used this early multi-user system. > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Discover Yahoo! > > Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM > and more. Check it out! > > http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html > > __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ From caa007216 at ono.com Thu Jun 9 06:08:58 2005 From: caa007216 at ono.com (SP) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:08:58 +0200 Subject: Asunto: Rescued: HP85, HP86B, 912x drives - score! - Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <424AACA100032EE6@resmta01.ono.com> I am searching for one disk drive for my HP150. By the way, I need too one keyboard and the thermal printer of the top. Regards Sergio >-- Mensaje original -- >Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:59:19 +0100 >From: >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Subject: Rescued: HP85, HP86B, 912x drives - score! - Update >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >Hi list, > >As you can see in the picture of the HP85 machines, 3 of them are >missing their smoked plastic CRT faceplates. > >Not any more they're not :) I went back to the dumpster and managed to >track down all three, and they have now been refitted. > >Now down to business: I don't actually want to keep any of these >machines, I just rescued them because I know there are people who do, >and I don't like to see classic computers going to landfill. Is there >anyone out there on this list who'd like one/several/one of the disk >drive units? > >If so, please drop me a mail and we'll work something out. > >Tony: thanks for your invaluable guide on how to sort the disk drive units >out! > >Ed. > From kirk at ba23.org Fri Jun 10 10:04:02 2005 From: kirk at ba23.org (Kirk Russell) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:04:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LF: DEC power supply schematics Message-ID: Hello, Does anybody know where I can find the schematics for the following DEC power supplies? TIA. - H7822 from a BA42-B - H7868 from a BA213 - H7864 from a BA23 -- Kirk Russell http://www.ba23.org/ Bridlewood Software Testers Guild Ottawa Ontario Canada From richard.smith at mewgull.com Sat Jun 11 02:14:10 2005 From: richard.smith at mewgull.com (Richard Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 08:14:10 +0100 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: References: <1117798096.20286.15.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050611081318.0217ceb8@localhost> At 00:29 04/06/2005, you wrote: >They're a bit like the good old Q-max cutters (now that is showing my age >[1]). > >[1] The first 3 I ever bought, over 25 years ago, were 5/8", 3/4" and >1+1/8". Why? > >-tony You were building a Mullard 5/10 valve (tube) amp! Richard From bv at norbionics.com Sat Jun 11 04:10:53 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:10:53 +0200 Subject: Data formats was Re: Rescue of data from Pioneer 10 & 11 tapes atJPL needed.Vintagecomputers slated for demolition. In-Reply-To: <20050609180002.D64058@shell.lmi.net> References: <200506081800.LAA06610@clulw009.amd.com><001d01c56c57$d6acca90$2101a8c0@finans> <000f01c56c5b$18c82200$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> <001001c56cb4$b9edce10$2101a8c0@finans> <20050609180002.D64058@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 10 Jun, 2005, at 03:08, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I'm becoming convinced that the "unavailability of old computer" is > code > for: "the guy who understands this stuff doesn't work here anymore, > and we don't WANT to have responsibility for the old data." For really odd computers, I can understand that there may be problems, but I would think that users in most cases got their data and applications ported to the next generation. Even if the tools used were not fully automatic, there is still a big area which would be nice to get mapped. One case is of course trivial. IBM are still selling computers which run the software for the first S/360, and the S/360 had porting tools for lots of other old systems, including simulators and emulators. HP-3000 also had a really long line of binary compatibility, but not as much in the way of porting tools. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Sat Jun 11 04:31:35 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:31:35 +0200 Subject: [GreenKeys] Rock and Roll Teletype 'experts' In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050609160519.04dc5340@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050609160519.04dc5340@mail> Message-ID: <12526c5143a7786e18ded856cf92b316@norbionics.com> On 9 Jun, 2005, at 23:05, John Foust wrote: > >> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:52:03 -0400 (EDT) >> From: John Lawson >> To: greenkeys at mailman.qth.net >> Subject: [GreenKeys] Rock and Roll Teletype 'experts' >> >> Clever use of Baudot code on an album cover - fascinating >> information from "experts" on the origins of it - I bet none of us >> knew that ITU 1 was "...used in Teletype machines in the late 1800s." Really? I would have thought most people here knew that Baudot's teletype dates back to 1870, and was operational in 1877. His keyboard had only five keys, but it was ITU 1. Or do think it is little known because Britain were late adopters and the US was on a different trail? -- -bv From richard.smith at mewgull.com Sat Jun 11 09:19:16 2005 From: richard.smith at mewgull.com (Richard Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:19:16 +0100 Subject: Nacom/Gemini/80-BUS/NASBUS In-Reply-To: <000301c56e89$eed21f10$0100a8c0@screamer> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050611150147.02000d48@localhost> A trawl through my documents folder today reveals I have schematics and user manuals for: Gemini 809 Floppy Disk Controller Card MAP 80 Systems 256k RAM Card Gemini 829 Floppy Disk / SASI Controller Card Gemini 812 Video Board (2 sheets) Gemini 832 Super Video Controller I also have user manuals: Gemini 813 Z80 CPU/RAM card Shugart SA600 Fixed Disk Drive (3.3, 6.6 or 10Mb!!) Xebec S1410 5.25 inch Winchester Disk Controller If there's any interest I could scan some of these and post to the files section. Richard From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 19:47:54 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: question about AT&T 7300 disk format Message-ID: <20050612004754.26967.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> are disks for this puter (68010 based Unix) readable in a PC? Otherwise how can I go about archiving them? Thanks. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 11 19:57:49 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy 2000 720k floppy drive Message-ID: <20050612005749.61807.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> shouldnt they look like a 3.5 inch 720k drive to a PC? (when connected to one) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From caa007216 at ono.com Thu Jun 9 06:11:17 2005 From: caa007216 at ono.com (SP) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:11:17 +0200 Subject: Asunto: Re: 8 inch floppies available In-Reply-To: <007b01c56c99$00d03b90$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> Message-ID: <424AACA100032EF3@resmta01.ono.com> I own one UX8-22 CP/M mchine with Tandon 8" units in working state. I should like to get the CP/M and software disks (Micropro and so on). Regards Sergio >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of SUPRDAVE at aol.com >> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 8:22 PM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: 8 inch floppies available >> >> I've just over 200 8inch floppy disks available for anyone interested. >> They're work disks from a paper company from 1985. All disks appear to >> be in good >> shape with no deterioration or mold that I can see from the random >> samples I >> looked at. Most are IBM brand. There's also some system master disks for >> an >> old XYCOM CP/M computer. >> >> Pay for shipping and you can add any extra if they're worth anything to >> you. >> >> >> Also got USCD p-system disks, Protem, some Micropro software with >> manuals >> and some original digital research master disks. I might keep these for >> >> bargaining purposes later. >> >> >> > > From ed at groenenberg.net Thu Jun 9 13:58:27 2005 From: ed at groenenberg.net (Ed) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:58:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Looking for a TU55/TC11 In-Reply-To: <52399.192.168.1.1.1118262602.squirrel@192.168.1.1> References: <52399.192.168.1.1.1118262602.squirrel@192.168.1.1> Message-ID: <57572.192.168.1.1.1118343507.squirrel@192.168.1.1> Sigh, I must have been very tired, I meant of course a TU56. Only a drive unit is fine too.....and paying for shipping across the big pond is not a problem either! Ed On Wo, 8 juni, 2005 10:30 pm, Ed zei: > > Ok, the matter is simple, I'm looking for a TU55/TC11 combo. > > I may have some other PDP material in trade/swap, let's talk in that case. > If the TU55/TC11 it is only for sale, we can still talk, as I don't > expect it to be without cost. > > Email me directly, no need to start another thread...... > > Ed > From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Jun 9 17:49:03 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:49:03 -0400 Subject: Apple Classics found at local salvation army... Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050609184537.02ca21a8@mail.n.ml.org> Browsing Wappingers Falls, NY, USA salvation army today and walked past an Apple Performa 6115 and an Apple PowerPC 7200/120 with 10/100 Ethernet add-on card! Both work and there is an Apple 14" monitor, keyboard and video cable adapter too. Talked to the manager lady and she said she'd let it all go for $14.99 US. I don't do Apples too much and don't have the money to spend, but if anyone in the area wants em, they are still available. -John Boffemmyer IV From fredette at theory.csail.mit.edu Thu Jun 9 18:14:29 2005 From: fredette at theory.csail.mit.edu (Matt Fredette) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:14:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: looking for a Sun 4/260 PROM image Message-ID: <200506092314.j59NET7C017026@mynah.csail.mit.edu> Hi. I'm looking for a PROM image for a Sun 4/260. If you can help, please email me directly, since I don't subscribe to the list. Thanks, -- Matt Fredette From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 12 22:50:59 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 20:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how to image pre dos 2.0 disks (?) Message-ID: <20050613035059.97966.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Winimage has beem doing a pretty good job until now, but it chokes on some really early stuff. It also doesnt like some diagnostic programs, that are not recognized as FAT. And you also cant, to my knowledge dump an image to a disk differing from the original. Any suggestions? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Ernst.Iberg at schlatter.ch Mon Jun 13 07:21:38 2005 From: Ernst.Iberg at schlatter.ch (Iberg Ernst) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 14:21:38 +0200 Subject: HP64000 Message-ID: Do You still want support ? We do still operate these machines... Ernst Iberg H.A. Schlatter AG Brandstrasse 24 CH-8952 Schlieren Tel. +41 44 732 7111 direkt +41 44 732 7567 Fax +41 44 732 4510 mobil +41 79 291 7377 E-Mail ernst.iberg at schlatter.ch Internet http://www.schlatter.ch From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jun 13 13:50:36 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:50:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tom Jennings on History channel In-Reply-To: <200506131642.JAA09765@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200506131642.JAA09765@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <4165.195.212.29.67.1118688636.squirrel@195.212.29.67> > Hi > Rotry engines always had issues with smog. In order > to get them to work, they were not vary fuel efficient. > Still, a lot of Hp in a small package. > Dwight I always figured they'd make a good basis for a turbocompound engine, especially since the emissions get worse as the engine speed increases (even less combustion time). Use a turbocharger, bleed off air into a combustion chamber and use the heated (now fairly clean) air to drive a quill-shaft turbine. Gordon. From caa007216 at ono.com Tue Jun 14 01:16:03 2005 From: caa007216 at ono.com (SP) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:16:03 +0200 Subject: Asunto: Found a PDP-8 today! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050613231330.00a08e10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <424AACBE0003CFF0@resmta03.ono.com> > Me? I got a CAR FULL of DEC software and documentation! Send an advice the day that you want get rid of all the stuff, please. Get DEC items like PDP8's in Europe is more difficult day by day. Regards Sergio From kth at srv.net Tue Jun 14 09:55:47 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:55:47 -0600 Subject: Dodgy IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42AEEFF3.1010906@srv.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > That's what I'm thinking, but then maybe not. I've tried cleaning both > >the power connector and the switch several times with contact cleaner, but >that had no effect. I'm not ruling it out yet, but because of the way >this thing powers on sometimes and not others, I'm suspecting a bad >capacitor or something(?) > > I have a e-machine PC with a flakey power supply somewhat like that. It's a small, underpowered unit that will sometimes power up all the fans when you push the button, but not always. Doesn't ever bring up the boot screen. Plug in a known good power supply, and everything works (but it doesn't fit the case). The old power supply has a lot of heat darkened points on the PC board, but nothing obviously wrong. Probably not worth the effort of fixing. To test the switch, can't you just temporarely attach another switch (aligator clips?) in parallel, and see if the new one works? It would eliminate the switch as the problem. I'm assuming it is a simple momentary contact switch. >Will have to troubleshoot more. > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 14 10:04:05 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:04:05 -0400 Subject: Looking for a TU55/TC11 References: <52399.192.168.1.1.1118262602.squirrel@192.168.1.1> Message-ID: <17070.61925.669670.394445@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "ed" == ed writes: ed> Ok, the matter is simple, I'm looking for a TU55/TC11 combo. ed> I may have some other PDP material in trade/swap, let's talk in ed> that case. If the TU55/TC11 it is only for sale, we can still ed> talk, as I don't expect it to be without cost. Did you really mean TU55? TU56 is the common drive with PDP-11s (dual drive); TU55 is a single drive and usually appears on systems predating the PDP-11. paul From appleto at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 10:04:44 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:04:44 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 Message-ID: Do you depend upon modern computers, or are you a creative spirit who can push the limits of your old hardware in order to fulfill your everyday needs? The Retrochallenge is where you find out. What are these challenges? If you enjoy creating original artwork, music, or programs on your legacy computer, then the creative challenges are for you. The second challenge is simply using a qualifying computer through the month of July, in a competition to see can survive a month without the latest in gadgetry. The third challenges judges how well you could communicate with the outside world on a retrocomputer. If you would like more information, please visit http://desnoyers.org/retrochallenge I also found a similar competition for people who like writing tiny (!) programs for 8, 16, and 32 bit micros: http://ffd2.com/minigame/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 14 10:32:37 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need a source of 7501 micros In-Reply-To: <20050609061237.5648.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> from Chris M at "Jun 8, 5 11:12:37 pm" Message-ID: <200506141532.IAA13280@floodgap.com> > So has anyone tried substituting a 6510 for a 7501? They are not drop-in compatible, but theoretically they can be converted (the 7501 has additional I/O lines for the Plus/4's more complex memory banking strategy). The cbm-hackers or plus4 mailing lists might know more about this. However, the 7501 is *not* exactly the same as a 6510 -- only close. Hans is correct in that the later 8501 *is* drop-in compatible. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- To err is human -- to forgive is not company policy. ----------------------- From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Jun 14 10:33:56 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe (FireflyST)) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:33:56 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale Message-ID: <23556987.1118763236606.JavaMail.root@wamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi everyone! I???ve decided to part with my assortment of QBUS equipment and peripherals, in order to gain space and raise some money for a SCSI card for my 11/34A. Here???s what I have: PDP 11/23 PLUS CPU (in advertised style BA11-S series system unit, with 3 switch front panel and large PDP 11/23 PLUS logo) Cards are: KDF11-BA Dilog DQ130 magtape controller. One 256KW MOS memory board (DEC, forgot the card name) One 128KW MOS memory board (same ??? I forgot!) Two DEQNA Ethernet controllers RLV11 22-Bit RL-series disk controller board RL02 cable to ONE RL02 (I never used more than 1 at a time, and I kept putting off getting a cable) BA11-SE Expansion box - two DZ11 serial multiplexors (probably worthless, LOL) And, two RL02 disk drives, and two RL02K-DC disk packs. Overland Data OD3201 nine track tape drive and ribbon cables. QBUS-specific manuals: Microcomputers and Memories 1982 PDP11-23 PLUS System Manual I???ll sell the whole lot for $500, and if you come pick it up you can have the cabinet it???s in (H9644, missing a few pieces) If you want parts and pieces: RL02 disk drives are $175 each plus shipping, include 1 pack. PDP11/23 PLUS CPU box with CPU card, memory, Ethernet controllers, multiplexors, and both manuals: $250 plus shipping 9 track tape drive with cables and DQ132 controller: $75 + S&H RL02 controller: $50(with purchase of drive(s)) otherwise, I will not sell it until both RL02s are sold. BA11-SE QBUS Expansion unit: $100 plus shipping The machine is located 40 miles north of Chicago, IL at my apartment. All this stuff is tested working. If you have any questions, please feel free to email me. Julian From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 14 10:47:10 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:47:10 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale References: <23556987.1118763236606.JavaMail.root@wamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <17070.64510.1089.536042@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Julian" == Julian Wolfe <(FireflyST)" > writes: Julian> Two DEQNA Ethernet controllers What ECO level? DEC went all the way to L on the DEQNA before finally giving up on it. The late ones work fairly well; early ones are quite evil. (DELQA is always preferable, though...) paul From news at computercollector.com Tue Jun 14 10:58:09 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:58:09 -0400 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200506141557.j5EFv8X6022448@dewey.classiccmp.org> Pretty lame that they're allowing the use of 486 stuff. The site says an article about the winners will be published in "MLAgazine" -- what the heck is that? I just found the site http://www.mlagazine.com ... claims to be "devoted to the history of the personal computer, the people that made it and the people who sold it" ... but from most of its news and links ( http://tinyurl.com/dg2x5 ) it appears to be just another Mac groupie site. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ronald Wayne Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 11:05 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 Do you depend upon modern computers, or are you a creative spirit who can push the limits of your old hardware in order to fulfill your everyday needs? The Retrochallenge is where you find out. What are these challenges? If you enjoy creating original artwork, music, or programs on your legacy computer, then the creative challenges are for you. The second challenge is simply using a qualifying computer through the month of July, in a competition to see can survive a month without the latest in gadgetry. The third challenges judges how well you could communicate with the outside world on a retrocomputer. If you would like more information, please visit http://desnoyers.org/retrochallenge I also found a similar competition for people who like writing tiny (!) programs for 8, 16, and 32 bit micros: http://ffd2.com/minigame/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 14 11:32:28 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replacing drives on classic systems was Wild-hair floppy drive question Message-ID: <200506141632.JAA10309@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > >When replacing drives in classic systems there are some things to keep in >mind: > >Newer drives are mainly compatible but not 100%. > Hi Termination is another thing that many miss. Too much is often just as bad as too little. Many newer drives are not clear how to disable the termination or enable it. Dwight From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Jun 14 11:36:33 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:36:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: WTB: DL11 Message-ID: <22377336.1118766993953.JavaMail.root@wamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Patrick, I have several spares. Send me an email and we can talk. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Finnegan Sent: Jun 12, 2005 1:04 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: WTB: DL11 So, one more part I need to get my DIY 11/34 functional, I need a DL11 for its console port. Since I aparenly was outbid on the one I was bidding on on ebay, I thought I might see if anyone on here has one available for a reasonable price. Thanks, Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 14 11:47:30 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board Message-ID: <200506141647.JAA10333@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dave Dunfield" > ---snip--- > > If you do need RAM at 0000, then you will need to add a bit of circutry to > allow your rom to "MOVE". One simple way, assuming you want to put your ROM > at an address >= 8000 is to upon RESET, double-map your ROM to it's correct > address (>= 8000) AND at 0000. While doing this, you need to pull the > phantom signal to disable any RAM at 0000 - Begin your bootstrap code with > a JMP to it's correct address (+3) ... As soon as you see an instruction > fetch with the high bit set, release the double-map at 0000 and phantom, > and your system will be operating normally from the ROM at the higher > address. Hi An alternate method, since this it to be your tinker system, would be to put a switch so that the EPROM board always is seen at 0000 when the switch is held. When released, it takes on the address that is out of the RAM's way. If you make it so that it is double mapped while the switch is pushed, making the transition to the normal address is trivial. One could even include a one-shot to trigger the reset. Dwight From wpfulmor at dimensional.com Tue Jun 14 12:33:38 2005 From: wpfulmor at dimensional.com (William Fulmor) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:33:38 -0600 (MDT) Subject: question about AT&T 7300 disk format In-Reply-To: <20050612004754.26967.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Jun 2005, Chris M wrote: > are disks for this puter (68010 based Unix) readable > in a PC? Otherwise how can I go about archiving them? Thanks. In unix mode the Unixpc/7300/3b1 disks have either 8 or 10 tracks (user selectable) and are NOT DOS readable. The Unixpc also allowed reading/writing in DOS format on DOS formatted disks, permitting data Xfer between DOS and Unix. Google comp.sys.3b1 for articles on using disk images (dd?) to move other stuff between the two. It's been done, but I forget how. Enjoy. Bill From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Jun 14 12:55:32 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:55:32 -0500 Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board References: <200506141647.JAA10333@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000b01c5710a$4d68c290$f43cd7d1@randy> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 11:47 AM > >From: "Dave Dunfield" >> > ---snip--- >> >> If you do need RAM at 0000, then you will need to add a bit of >> circutry to >> allow your rom to "MOVE". One simple way, assuming you want to put >> your ROM >> at an address >= 8000 is to upon RESET, double-map your ROM to it's >> correct >> address (>= 8000) AND at 0000. While doing this, you need to pull the >> phantom signal to disable any RAM at 0000 - Begin your bootstrap code >> with >> a JMP to it's correct address (+3) ... As soon as you see an >> instruction >> fetch with the high bit set, release the double-map at 0000 and >> phantom, >> and your system will be operating normally from the ROM at the higher >> address. > > Hi > An alternate method, since this it to be your tinker system, > would be to put a switch so that the EPROM board always > is seen at 0000 when the switch is held. When released, > it takes on the address that is out of the RAM's way. > If you make it so that it is double mapped while the switch > is pushed, making the transition to the normal address is > trivial. > One could even include a one-shot to trigger the reset. > Dwight A simple automatic circuit can be added that looks at a particular address bit, once set it could turn off ROM. For example a simple SR flip-flop that is set by A15 and reset by system reset. Have ROM on top of RAM and the ROM can copy over itself (read from ROM write back to same address). Once copied all that is needed is to read a byte from high RAM and the system goes to all RAM. It would take very little glue logic. As a matter of fact using this technique the system could be easily setup so all reads are from ROM and all writes are to RAM until A15 is set which would greatly reduce address decoding. It could also be done during any I/O instruction so the monitor would have to copy itself before any I/O activity. Of course using the NorthStar CPU previously mentioned eliminates everything since it has POJ & an EPROM option (2708 but as mentioned in a different thread only two pins need be "changed" to allow other ROM types. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Jun 14 13:04:11 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:04:11 -0500 Subject: Replacing drives on classic systems was Wild-hair floppy drive question References: <200506141632.JAA10309@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <001001c5710b$7b2505d0$f43cd7d1@randy> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 11:32 AM > >From: "Randy McLaughlin" >> >>When replacing drives in classic systems there are some things to keep in >>mind: >> >>Newer drives are mainly compatible but not 100%. > > Hi > Termination is another thing that many miss. Too much > is often just as bad as too little. Many newer drives > are not clear how to disable the termination or enable > it. > Dwight This issue only affects 3.5" drives which no longer use the same termination (but is compatible with). I'll have to look up the technical details (hopefully someone will speak up first) but basically the floppy drivers on PC's have gone from open collector TTL to CMOS changing the characteristics of the line drivers. I am not sure about details like maximum cable length etc. but 3.5" drives can be mixed with TTL driven drives and termination then becomes optional. The 3.5" drivers pull up the lines enough to make termination unnecessary, of course you still don't want two TTL type drives terminated on the same cable. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From appleto at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 13:09:22 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:09:22 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <200506141557.j5EFv8X6022448@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506141557.j5EFv8X6022448@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: In a world where people view 486's and obsolete and worthless, is there any point in excluding them? As for MLAgazine being a Mac groupie site, well, it is. The Retrochallenge started with the 68k MLA and we are now trying to expand interest beyond the Mac community. Hopefully that bias will be overcome in the future as more people become interested in the challenge. As for a non-Mac user getting an article published on a Mac website: just think of it as an opportunity to discuss the history your favorite machine. MLAgazine is a site about Apple *history*, as such it has a large readership who will appreciate articles about any old machine. From jhoger at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 13:14:06 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:14:06 -0700 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <200506141557.j5EFv8X6022448@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506141557.j5EFv8X6022448@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Worse than that... the Z80, 8085, and 6809 (the first two of which I actually use on a daily basis) are not in the list of qualifying processors. -- John. From jhoger at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 13:18:43 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:18:43 -0700 Subject: Creating text PDFs from scans In-Reply-To: <200506140709.DAA13608@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200506140709.DAA13608@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: If it's okay for Shakespeare... From news at computercollector.com Tue Jun 14 13:24:24 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:24:24 -0400 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200506141823.j5EINwc8023946@dewey.classiccmp.org> Hold the phone... Maybe other classiccmp readers already know this; I didn't... MLA stands for "Macintosh Liberation Army"...!? Http://www.68kmla.net/faq.php ... wow, and I thought Newton people were the crazed militants. Seems to me that "devoted to the history of the personal computer" ought to start 50 years ago, not with the Mac: http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ronald Wayne Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 2:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Retrochallenge, 2005 In a world where people view 486's and obsolete and worthless, is there any point in excluding them? As for MLAgazine being a Mac groupie site, well, it is. The Retrochallenge started with the 68k MLA and we are now trying to expand interest beyond the Mac community. Hopefully that bias will be overcome in the future as more people become interested in the challenge. As for a non-Mac user getting an article published on a Mac website: just think of it as an opportunity to discuss the history your favorite machine. MLAgazine is a site about Apple *history*, as such it has a large readership who will appreciate articles about any old machine. From appleto at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 13:29:34 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:29:34 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <200506141557.j5EFv8X6022448@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Bah, don't let that serve as an excuse. All three of those processors have been added to the list. On 6/14/05, John Hogerhuis wrote: > Worse than that... the Z80, 8085, and 6809 (the first two of which I > actually use on a daily basis) are not in the list of qualifying > processors. > > -- John. > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 14 13:26:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dodgy IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: <42AEEFF3.1010906@srv.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Kevin Handy wrote: > To test the switch, can't you just temporarely attach another > switch (aligator clips?) in parallel, and see if the new one > works? It would eliminate the switch as the problem. > I'm assuming it is a simple momentary contact switch. Yes, I did this. I can short the two leads of the switch but I get the same symptoms. There's something wrong with the electronics. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 14 13:35:52 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:35:52 -0400 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <200506141557.j5EFv8X6022448@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200506141557.j5EFv8X6022448@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050614142749.05093948@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Hogerhuis may have mentioned these words: >Worse than that... the Z80, 8085, and 6809 (the first two of which I >actually use on a daily basis) are not in the list of qualifying >processors. They are now... and the multiplier is now even higher yet for 'em! There are a lot more processors that could be listed there, too, the 6800 / 6803, the 68008, 8080, 80186, etc... but if we keep going, then we're going to start getting into some pretty uncommon machines... Unforch, there's no point in me entering their "endurance" contest, as during the use of a qualifying machine (my tandy 200) I quite often use a non-qualifying machine as a pseudo-floppy (a rather big one, at that). :-( Is there a DeskLink for Amiga? ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From news at computercollector.com Tue Jun 14 13:36:11 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:36:11 -0400 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200506141835.j5EIZer6024233@dewey.classiccmp.org> Hmmm ... are you the same Ronald Wayne who was the third founder of Apple and sold out for $800? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ronald Wayne Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 2:30 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Retrochallenge, 2005 Bah, don't let that serve as an excuse. All three of those processors have been added to the list. On 6/14/05, John Hogerhuis wrote: > Worse than that... the Z80, 8085, and 6809 (the first two of which I > actually use on a daily basis) are not in the list of qualifying > processors. > > -- John. > > From appleto at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 13:49:01 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:49:01 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <200506141835.j5EIZer6024233@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506141835.j5EIZer6024233@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Hmmm ... are you the same Ronald Wayne who was the third founder of Apple > and sold out for $800? No. That is an alias I used while signing up for gmail. I realised that it was a very silly alias when I signed up for this list. My name is Byron Desnoyers. Anyhow, I'll add processors when people suggest that they want to use it. The general rule of thumb is that some version the processor must have been introduced prior to March 1993. Processors like the 8085, 6809, and Z80 are dead simple to add (I just have to confirm what they are). I'm sure that some of you guys can throw much more difficult decisions my way too. On 6/14/05, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > Hmmm ... are you the same Ronald Wayne who was the third founder of Apple > and sold out for $800? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Ronald Wayne > Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 2:30 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Retrochallenge, 2005 > > Bah, don't let that serve as an excuse. All three of those processors have > been added to the list. > > On 6/14/05, John Hogerhuis wrote: > > Worse than that... the Z80, 8085, and 6809 (the first two of which I > > actually use on a daily basis) are not in the list of qualifying > > processors. > > > > -- John. > > > > > > From tomj at wps.com Tue Jun 14 13:51:33 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board In-Reply-To: <0II1009H0U1DJJR1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0II1009H0U1DJJR1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050614113840.Y914@localhost> On Mon, 13 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: > Yes, you will have to have rom at 0000h though and Mwrite > was derived and delivered from the front pannel if memory > serves. So that means ram will have to be set up to not > require Mwrite. Either that or you will have to through > something small together to create Mwrite. > > As to mapping rom out once operational, thats a later problem. > It's fairly easy to do. My S100 system has a homemade EPROM card that powers up into the address space, on top of RAM, where the Z80 jumps to it and executes from it. The first thing the EPROM code does is copy itself, in place. This reads from EPROM, writes to RAM (well, to EPROM too, but the write line is ignored by the EPROM board). There is a flip-flop set by the RESET line that enables the EPROM board. Any I/O instruction (eg. address not decoded) resets the flip-flop, disabling the board. Therefore, right after the EPROM monitor copies itself to RAM, it jumps to the serial port init code, and any old IN or OUT instruction disables the EPROM card, leaving the full 64K address space available. My EPROM monitor occupies the top 2K? of the first 32K of address space. It fits in the lower 32K static memory card. Hitting reset does not disturb CP/M (up at ef00h), and leaves "most" TPA programs intact. The board was designed/made by Tom Campbell, who I worked for way back when. It's elegantly simple. di ; everyone shut up, please lxi h, epromstartaddress ; EPROM address lxi d, epromstartaddress ; likewise, I'm sure, lxi b, 2048 ; BC=EPROM size ldir ; whirl! in 0 ; disables EPROM ... From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 14 14:01:27 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:01:27 -0400 Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board Message-ID: <0II3003FE8TSX90Q@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: MITS 8800B CPU Board > From: Tom Jennings > Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:51:33 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On Mon, 13 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: > >> Yes, you will have to have rom at 0000h though and Mwrite >> was derived and delivered from the front pannel if memory >> serves. So that means ram will have to be set up to not >> require Mwrite. Either that or you will have to through >> something small together to create Mwrite. >> >> As to mapping rom out once operational, thats a later problem. >> It's fairly easy to do. > >My S100 system has a homemade EPROM card that powers up into the >address space, on top of RAM, where the Z80 jumps to it and >executes from it. > >The first thing the EPROM code does is copy itself, in place. This >reads from EPROM, writes to RAM (well, to EPROM too, but the write >line is ignored by the EPROM board). > >There is a flip-flop set by the RESET line that enables the EPROM >board. Any I/O instruction (eg. address not decoded) resets the >flip-flop, disabling the board. > >Therefore, right after the EPROM monitor copies itself to RAM, it >jumps to the serial port init code, and any old IN or OUT >instruction disables the EPROM card, leaving the full 64K address >space available. > >My EPROM monitor occupies the top 2K? of the first 32K of address >space. It fits in the lower 32K static memory card. Hitting reset >does not disturb CP/M (up at ef00h), and leaves "most" TPA >programs intact. > >The board was designed/made by Tom Campbell, who I worked for way >back when. It's elegantly simple. > > > > di ; everyone shut up, please > lxi h, epromstartaddress ; EPROM address > lxi d, epromstartaddress ; likewise, I'm sure, > lxi b, 2048 ; BC=EPROM size > ldir ; whirl! > in 0 ; disables EPROM > ... > Only one detail... the proposed cpu was 8080 (MITS 8800B)! di ; everyone shut up, please loop: lxi h, epromstartaddress ; EPROM address lxi d, epromstartaddress ; likewise, I'm sure, lxi b, 2048 ; BC=EPROM size ; ldir ; whirl! ;replace with.. DCX B MOV a,b ORA c JNZ loop ; back to original program in 0 ; disables EPROM Horrid as it's mixed 8080/z80 code. Allison From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Jun 14 14:01:13 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:01:13 -0500 Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board References: <0II1009H0U1DJJR1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <20050614113840.Y914@localhost> Message-ID: <003c01c57113$72bdb600$9f3dd7d1@randy> From: "Tom Jennings" Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 1:51 PM > On Mon, 13 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: > >> Yes, you will have to have rom at 0000h though and Mwrite >> was derived and delivered from the front pannel if memory >> serves. So that means ram will have to be set up to not >> require Mwrite. Either that or you will have to through >> something small together to create Mwrite. >> >> As to mapping rom out once operational, thats a later problem. >> It's fairly easy to do. > > My S100 system has a homemade EPROM card that powers up into the > address space, on top of RAM, where the Z80 jumps to it and > executes from it. > > The first thing the EPROM code does is copy itself, in place. This > reads from EPROM, writes to RAM (well, to EPROM too, but the write > line is ignored by the EPROM board). > > There is a flip-flop set by the RESET line that enables the EPROM > board. Any I/O instruction (eg. address not decoded) resets the > flip-flop, disabling the board. > > Therefore, right after the EPROM monitor copies itself to RAM, it > jumps to the serial port init code, and any old IN or OUT > instruction disables the EPROM card, leaving the full 64K address > space available. > > My EPROM monitor occupies the top 2K? of the first 32K of address > space. It fits in the lower 32K static memory card. Hitting reset > does not disturb CP/M (up at ef00h), and leaves "most" TPA > programs intact. > > The board was designed/made by Tom Campbell, who I worked for way > back when. It's elegantly simple. > > > > di ; everyone shut up, please > lxi h, epromstartaddress ; EPROM address > lxi d, epromstartaddress ; likewise, I'm sure, > lxi b, 2048 ; BC=EPROM size > ldir ; whirl! > in 0 ; disables EPROM > ... Please note that by using current RAM chips that are >= 64K address decoding is extremely simplified. To carve out space from ROM not only butchers the address map but adds complexity. As I already said either an I/O instruction or an address line can accomplish the same task. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 14 13:57:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, John Hogerhuis wrote: > Worse than that... the Z80, 8085, and 6809 (the first two of which I > actually use on a daily basis) are not in the list of qualifying > processors. Niether are any PDP8 or PDP11 processors, not to mention other minicomputer models that I'm sure people could utilize in the challenge. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 14 13:59:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Ronald Wayne wrote: > Bah, don't let that serve as an excuse. All three of those processors > have been added to the list. Why not just make it easy on yourself and make the specification "any computer from 198x or earlier"? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 14 14:01:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Ronald Wayne wrote: > Anyhow, I'll add processors when people suggest that they want to use > it. The general rule of thumb is that some version the processor must > have been introduced prior to March 1993. What's the challenge in that? I was online with my Apple //e in 1992. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Jun 14 14:16:30 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:16:30 +0100 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:24:24 EDT." <200506141823.j5EINwc8023946@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200506141916.UAA11718@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, > Hold the phone... Maybe other classiccmp readers already know this; I > didn't... MLA stands for "Macintosh Liberation Army"...!? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Ronald Wayne > Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 2:09 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Retrochallenge, 2005 > > In a world where people view 486's and obsolete and worthless, is there any > point in excluding them? Well, I use a 486 every day, as a print server*, another one quite often as a PDP-11 emulator and a Mac SE (68000) most days as a terminal to a Linux box. To me these are quite modern machines... * It actually does more than providing print services, but that's all I'm using it for. It will also act as a firewall and router and it runs a webserver (for remote admin). -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From appleto at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 14:38:16 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:38:16 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was online with an Apple IIe in 1997. As you suggest, it is not very challenging. Then again, I hear that it is getting more difficult since most modern ISPs expect you to use PPP. To my knowledge, PPP does not exist for the IIe. On it not being a challenge: setting aside the thought that a lot of people will have trouble because they use the latest hardware alongside their old machines, there is still that issue of the machine multiplier. Any determined user of an early-1980s machine will have a lead in the endurance and online challenges simply because they are earning two or three times as many points while doing the same thing. So while 68040s and 80486s are permitted, they are at a disadvantage. I tried the date cutoff that and ended up with a bunch of people who said that they could not participate. Some said it was because their machine was not old enough, even though it was equivalent to an older machine which would qualify. Another person simply said that I should get off my lazy ass and do the necessary research into processors. This could be a little awkward now that PDPs have entered the picture. Ah well, I'll get back to you on that one later. They will be fine machines for the challenge, but it is a matter of figuring out the multiplier. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Jun 14 14:23:49 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:23:49 +0100 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:01:48 PDT." Message-ID: <200506141923.UAA12005@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Sellam Ismail said: > On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Ronald Wayne wrote: > > > Anyhow, I'll add processors when people suggest that they want to use > > it. The general rule of thumb is that some version the processor must > > have been introduced prior to March 1993. > > What's the challenge in that? I was online with my Apple //e in 1992. I've used my Mac SE (1988) online, but not in 1988! I could put it back online now if I dug the modem out of the bits box. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From tomj at wps.com Tue Jun 14 15:11:53 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Zemco CompuCruise In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050613155708.05401878@mail> References: <42AB1DAD.AD4FF1BE@msm.umr.edu> <20050613131426.B1016@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050613155708.05401878@mail> Message-ID: <20050614130549.Q914@localhost> On Mon, 13 Jun 2005, John Foust wrote: > Zemco Compucruise! I put one in my 1996 Mustang Grande circa 1980. > It was so futuristic. After the Mustang I got a Javelin. And today it's a futuristic artifact of the past, and will be right at home in my new 35-yr-old car. (I've avoided automotive computing intentionally and 100%, but it looks like I'm going to do MP3 audio (with a Soekris Eng. NET4801) and also Megasquirt, an open-souce EFI system.) > I kept it long after the car passed on and eventually gave the > Compucruise and its sensors in 1996 to Dale Luck of Amiga > graphics fame for one of his restorations. > > It was an early car computer kit. I remember epoxy-ing magnets to > the drive shaft to monitor speed, a pair of temperature sensors, > an inline optical gas consumption sensor, a brake switch, and a > vacuum-driven bladder connected to the throttle. It could do cool > stuff like real-time MPG, estimated time of arrival, and a cruise > control that would accelerate to a preset speed on its own. I lucked out a few years back, and found a new-never-used still in the box one, complete with brackets, cable ties, manuals and errata, etc. Missing only the box top. It's Z80-based, I think and has a masked ROM, and powered up OK about a year or so back. I hope to begin installing it this weekend. I doubt I'll get many sensors setup this weekend. > The Compucruise's cruise control once lost its feedback (and/or > brake shut-off, I forget) while driving the interstate and it > happily floored the gas pedal until I reached under the dash to > disconnect its power. My passenger was horrified. Woah. Not very good! Cruise control isn't high on my list, but I'll keep that in mind! The brake-switch interlock system is a bit kludgey, a ball-chain and plastic switch. I suppose I should reengineer that part. I'll keep the fuse/connector handy too :-) From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Jun 14 15:13:01 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:13:01 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 References: <200506141923.UAA12005@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <000801c5711d$7aebc830$163cd7d1@randy> From: "Stan Barr" Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 2:23 PM > Hi, > > Sellam Ismail said: > >> On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Ronald Wayne wrote: >> >> > Anyhow, I'll add processors when people suggest that they want to use >> > it. The general rule of thumb is that some version the processor must >> > have been introduced prior to March 1993. >> >> What's the challenge in that? I was online with my Apple //e in 1992. > > I've used my Mac SE (1988) online, but not in 1988! I could put it > back online now if I dug the modem out of the bits box. > > -- > Cheers, > Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com > > The future was never like this! In the 70's I was calling up RCP/M's with my SOL-20, who understands bye? :) I think that was before Al Gore invented the internet. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 15:18:37 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:18:37 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/14/05, Ronald Wayne wrote: > On it not being a challenge: setting aside the thought that a lot of > people will have trouble because they use the latest hardware > alongside their old machines, there is still that issue of the machine > multiplier. Any determined user of an early-1980s machine will have a > lead in the endurance and online challenges simply because they are > earning two or three times as many points while doing the same thing. > So while 68040s and 80486s are permitted, they are at a disadvantage. Well... my old Amiga 1000 (1985 - 8MHz 68000) was attached to the rest of the world via UUCP starting in 1987. I used to run mail _and_ news on a 20MB (MB!) spool disk (yes, it was a partial news feed). Given that there are web servers and browsers, etc., I don't think an Amiga is much of a challenge, either. I mean, I _like_ my "modern" 300MHz laptop, but I would still be able to communicate with people, write software, print letters, etc., with something 4% as fast with 1% of the memory. I would have to backtrack to an 8-bit as my daily-use machine to really affect my daily routine. If I were using a 486, I'd probably just throw a version of Linux on it that fit the memory footprint (Slackware or RedHat 5), and go about my normal business. Just don't make me mess with dial-up - I haven't used a modem in over 10 years. It was cute and all in 1983. By 1993, POTS lines didn't cut it. -ethan From cb at mythtech.net Tue Jun 14 15:22:07 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:22:07 -0400 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 Message-ID: >I've used my Mac SE (1988) online, but not in 1988! I could put it >back online now if I dug the modem out of the bits box. I used my Mac SE online in 1991 (or was it 1990... one of those two). I used it to connect to CompuServe back then. Not too long after I was using it to connect to Prodigy, although I gave up on that VERY quickly, it performed like crap on the SE. I don't think I even made it past Prodigy's trial period (I used it for maybe an hour over the course of a week) Then there was a break until maybe 93/94 when I used AOL, also originally on the SE, but shortly there after on a Quadra 610. Of course, prior to the SE and CompuServe in 1991, I was using a Mac Plus on BBS systems (and before that an Apple II+ on BBS as well as the A2 on CompuServe for a period of time... and on some Dow Jones thing I obtained from school). And of course, I'm sure all my stuff is WAY more modern then many others on this list were doing. -chris From Tim at rikers.org Tue Jun 14 15:23:16 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:23:16 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42AF3CB4.8070101@Rikers.org> Ronald Wayne wrote: > On it not being a challenge: setting aside the thought that a lot of > people will have trouble because they use the latest hardware > alongside their old machines, there is still that issue of the machine > multiplier. Any determined user of an early-1980s machine will have a > lead in the endurance and online challenges simply because they are > earning two or three times as many points while doing the same thing. > So while 68040s and 80486s are permitted, they are at a disadvantage. But existing code can be used, yes? So one could load up a 486 with a Linux distro including POP3 IMAP SMTP NNTP FTP IRC HTTP Gopher apps, and be done. Much easier than trying to get a tcp stack working on some of the others. I suppose a uClinux build on a 68k could do all this too. Doing it on a 6502 would be a real challenge. (let alone something like an HP-2100 ;-) on a different note, I wonder why you have ftp for send and recieve at 150 points, but http recieve only at 300 points. http send and receive are easier to implement than ftp send and receive. Ditto for gopher. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jun 14 15:33:34 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:33:34 -0400 Subject: CP/M serial disk image transfer. Message-ID: <20050614203332.SBVK5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, Having a large quantity of 8" disks that I need to archive/send to someone, and neither of us having teledisk working on an compatible 8" drive, and not having nearly enough 8" media to spare to send physical copies... I have created another serial link disk imaging program. This one reads and writes CP/M images to and from physical diskettes of a connected CP/M system. Due to the fact that CP/M does not provide a general means of reading and writing the system tracks, system tracks can only be backed up on diskettes which have them recorded in a format compatible with the BIOS driver. The user accessable portion of the disk can always be backed up and restored. This is a command line program that runs on a PC, and communicates with the target system via a small resident "client". The program can transfer the client to the CP/M system by "typing it in" through DDT. Still in the testing stages, I have it to the point where I can quite reliably backup and restore diskette images. So far I've tested it using a NorthStar Horizon (actually my simulator running on another PC), and the Orion-V (an STD bus system with 8" disks). If anyone wants to play with it, please drop me a line, and I can send a preliminary version - once I am happy that everything is working correctly, I will get it posted to my site. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From tomj at wps.com Tue Jun 14 15:43:28 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MITS8800 CPU Board In-Reply-To: <0II200LS2M319LOB@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0II200LS2M319LOB@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050614134204.F914@localhost> On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: >> Again, thanks for your help. This is my first foray into S100 stuff, >> and makes a nice change from Multibus. I'd swap S100 for Multibuss any day! CP/M-80 on Multibuss is easy and reliable! I wish I had kept my old multibuss box. I always imagine getting another one, just some 6-slot job with Intel cards and some DSDD floppy controller. Nice and boring! :-) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 14 15:57:22 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 Message-ID: <20050614205722.203C370C986F@bitsavers.org> looking at the points/multipier a Sun 3/60 running BSD will be the knee of the effort/points curve. From appleto at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 15:58:54 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:58:54 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <42AF3CB4.8070101@Rikers.org> References: <42AF3CB4.8070101@Rikers.org> Message-ID: The 150 points (most protocols) vs. 300 points (HTTP/gopher) is an artifact of the competition being designed for run-of-the-mill personal computer users. The idea was that HTTP is difficult because some machines don't have web browsers available, while most people won't even know what gopher is. Yes, I know that most of the people around here can fire up a telnet client and make HTTP requests and some of you used to use gopher daily, but you're special! There are no restrictions on software. Of course most Linux distributions and software will require an 80386 or better (or a 68020 plus MMU or better), so that doesn't earn you many points. Same idea with getting the machine online: sure it is easy with a 68000 or better, but you simply aren't pushing the challenge to its full potential: try getting online with a lesser machine. Anyhow, my 1/2 hour of research leads me to believe that PDP/11 based machines deserve a multiplier of 2, while PDP/8 based machines deserve a multiplier of 3. Am I facing a lynch mob here? From appleto at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 16:01:45 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:01:45 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <20050614205722.203C370C986F@bitsavers.org> References: <20050614205722.203C370C986F@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The Sun 3 is based upon a 68020, so the multiplier is 2. On 6/14/05, Al Kossow wrote: > > looking at the points/multipier a Sun 3/60 running BSD will be the > knee of the effort/points curve. > > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jun 14 16:07:54 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:07:54 -0400 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <000801c5711d$7aebc830$163cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Stan Barr" > > Sellam Ismail said: > >> What's the challenge in that? I was online with my Apple //e in 1992. > > > > I've used my Mac SE (1988) online, but not in 1988! I could put it > > back online now if I dug the modem out of the bits box. > > In the 70's I was calling up RCP/M's with my SOL-20, who > understands bye? :) > Since we seem to be in a "can you top this" mood... In the 1970's, I was dialing into the NBS TIP with an OSI C1P (terminal program loaded from cassette tape) using a "modem" (that almost doesn't deserve the name) built from a kit ordered from a little ad in the back of Byte. The "modem" consisted of a 2 inch square board with three chips on it. The speaker and mic hung off of wires. I attached them to the telephone handset with rubber bands. The "modem" attached directly to the USART chip in the C1P, talking serial at TTL levels. As one of the chips on the "modem" would heat up, the carrier frequency would shift (you could hear it). To keep from dropping the connection, I kept a little baggie with an ice cube in it at hand and would apply it to the chip to bring the temp down. Played the pre-commercial Zork on MIT-DM that way. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 14 16:15:09 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:15:09 -0400 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42AF48DD.nail4UT1M5MNP@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > simply using a qualifying computer through the month of July WHO NEEDS A COMPUTER AT HOME. I'VE GOT MY MODEL 33ASR TELETYPE AND 110 BAUD MODEM. TIM. From news at computercollector.com Tue Jun 14 16:17:28 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050614211728.59850.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> >>>> Am I facing a lynch mob here? I'd just say that your contest seems geared for merely "old" computers in the mainstream sense of "old", whereas our little mailing list here is 99% focused on things that are truly vintage / antique by most modern standards. What you consider old, we consider new-fangled. :) --- Ronald Wayne wrote: > The 150 points (most protocols) vs. 300 points (HTTP/gopher) is an > artifact of the competition being designed for run-of-the-mill > personal computer users. The idea was that HTTP is difficult because > some machines don't have web browsers available, while most people > won't even know what gopher is. Yes, I know that most of the people > around here can fire up a telnet client and make HTTP requests and > some of you used to use gopher daily, but you're special! > > There are no restrictions on software. Of course most Linux > distributions and software will require an 80386 or better (or a 68020 > plus MMU or better), so that doesn't earn you many points. Same idea > with getting the machine online: sure it is easy with a 68000 or > better, but you simply aren't pushing the challenge to its full > potential: try getting online with a lesser machine. > > Anyhow, my 1/2 hour of research leads me to believe that PDP/11 based > machines deserve a multiplier of 2, while PDP/8 based machines deserve > a multiplier of 3. Am I facing a lynch mob here? > > Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 14 16:30:22 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <200506141923.UAA12005@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200506141923.UAA12005@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <20050614142739.C74486@shell.lmi.net> > > What's the challenge in that? I was online with my Apple //e in 1992. > I've used my Mac SE (1988) online, but not in 1988! I could put it > back online now if I dug the modem out of the bits box. So what? I (and MANY others) were doing Source and Compuserve before 1980 on TRS80s and Apple ][s. It's not THAT long ago that 300 baud was the FAST speed. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 16:35:49 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:35:49 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <42AF48DD.nail4UT1M5MNP@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <42AF48DD.nail4UT1M5MNP@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On 6/14/05, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > simply using a qualifying computer through the month of July > > WHO NEEDS A COMPUTER AT HOME. I'VE GOT MY MODEL 33ASR TELETYPE > AND 110 BAUD MODEM. Heh... I tested an ASR33 w/110 baud DataSet that I picked up at Dayton by hooking it to my phone line and calling the local CompuServe number - they used to have equipment that would sync up - I _did_ get a login prompt. -ethan From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 14 16:35:47 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:35:47 -0400 Subject: Check out artical on Data Format Storage In-Reply-To: <00a001c57080$f4d08c00$66406b43@66067007> References: <00a001c57080$f4d08c00$66406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <42AF4DB3.nail56C1EMDG8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> RD Keys wrote: > In the July 2005 issue of Technology Review there's an article about the > over 16,000 formats of data that the NARA has to store and make available > forever. They have two companies working on a way to store all this data > in their correct data format but be able to review it at anytime in the > future. What you fail to mention is the magnitude of the effort: $136,000,000 is the budget Bush wants for this. My efforts to steer the efforts towards sanity were completely ignored. If you aren't a defense contractor with a marketing budget to woo politicians, you have no say in how this goes. I want to be optimistic about the process and results but I wasted too many years trying to make it work. Tim. (not in a good mood...) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 16:41:30 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:41:30 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <20050614142739.C74486@shell.lmi.net> References: <200506141923.UAA12005@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050614142739.C74486@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 6/14/05, Fred Cisin wrote: > I (and MANY others) were doing Source and Compuserve before 1980 on > TRS80s and Apple ][s. It's not THAT long ago that 300 baud was the > FAST speed. Plus in the case of the VIC-20 and C-64, the 300 baud modem was big-banged (the "modem" was literally just a tone modulator/de-modulator hung off of the "user" (parallel) port. The human had to dial a regular phone, wait for the carrier, then unplug the handset cord from the phone and plug it into the "VIC Modem". No sissy Hayes commands here. I got my first VIC Modem in 1982 with a $40 CIS certificate. I didn't like the terminal program that came with the modem, so I wrote my own *in BASIC*! Eventually, I ended up on the beta-test list for VidTex for the C-64 - still have the program and the manual. In 2001, I went to work at CompuServe with some of the same guys that developed VidTex and the early VidTex content nearly 20 years prior. I stuck with 300 baud for a long time because it was *only* $6/hr off-peak. I still had a few bills that ticked off my mom. By 1985, I was using a CiTOH VT100 clone and a Ventel 1200-baud modem borrowed from work... there happens to be an 8-bit processor inside the terminal (8080? 8085? Z-80?), but it's not accessible to the user inside a dumb terminal. One could dial up with that (direct via modem, or through a terminal server and cable modem) to get to lynx, mutt, etc.... -ethan From Tim at rikers.org Tue Jun 14 16:41:04 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:41:04 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <20050614205722.203C370C986F@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42AF4EF0.2060709@Rikers.org> Ronald Wayne wrote: > The Sun 3 is based upon a 68020, so the multiplier is 2. > > On 6/14/05, Al Kossow wrote: > >>looking at the points/multipier a Sun 3/60 running BSD will be the >>knee of the effort/points curve. hence the "knee" unless you know of a system that can do the same on one of the 3 based processors. The point being that doing all the protocols on a 2 based system is fairly easy. And doing even one of them on a 3 is a challenge. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 14 16:42:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M serial disk image transfer. In-Reply-To: <20050614203332.SBVK5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: Dave, Nice effort! On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Having a large quantity of 8" disks that I need to archive/send to > someone, and neither of us having teledisk working on an compatible > 8" drive, and not having nearly enough 8" media to spare to send > physical copies... > > I have created another serial link disk imaging program. > > This one reads and writes CP/M images to and from physical diskettes > of a connected CP/M system. > > Due to the fact that CP/M does not provide a general means of reading > and writing the system tracks, system tracks can only be backed up on > diskettes which have them recorded in a format compatible with the > BIOS driver. The user accessable portion of the disk can always be > backed up and restored. > > This is a command line program that runs on a PC, and communicates > with the target system via a small resident "client". The program > can transfer the client to the CP/M system by "typing it in" through > DDT. > > Still in the testing stages, I have it to the point where I can > quite reliably backup and restore diskette images. So far I've tested > it using a NorthStar Horizon (actually my simulator running on another > PC), and the Orion-V (an STD bus system with 8" disks). > > If anyone wants to play with it, please drop me a line, and I can send > a preliminary version - once I am happy that everything is working > correctly, I will get it posted to my site. > > Regards, > Dave > -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 16:49:09 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:49:09 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <42AF3CB4.8070101@Rikers.org> Message-ID: On 6/14/05, Ronald Wayne wrote: > Anyhow, my 1/2 hour of research leads me to believe that PDP/11 based > machines deserve a multiplier of 2, while PDP/8 based machines deserve > a multiplier of 3. Am I facing a lynch mob here? Not necessarily a lynch mob, but many 1982/1983 models of PDP-11 are somewhat easy to get UNIX running on (presuming one has enough disk). It's "kinda" cheating, though, because if I were going to pick, say, an 11/23 with 4MB of memory, and a few dozen megabytes of disk (one RL02 doesn't really give enough space), we are talking several thousand dollars of hardware in 1982, vs a couple thousand for, say, a reasonably tricked-out Apple II with no hard disk. In fact, I would probably say $8K-new worth of PDP-11 equipment (now eBaying for far less) would be good enough for a reasonably modern textual daily life. Part of the scaling problem is that PDP-11s came from C-64 sized (LSI-11) up to full server size (11/70), with a similarly scaling price tag. Now... as a hobbyist in 1982, I couldn't afford -11 equipment at home (it came later, c. 1986), but I _could_ afford PDP-8 equipment. The difference, though, is that a PDP-8 w/OS/8 could go online with, say, Kermit, OS/8 is more of an RT-11 or CP/M-kind of an experience (no accident, since they both trace themselves back to OS/8). I love my PDP-8s, but like going back to an 8-bit platform of any kind, I'd take a hit in terms of what I do every day if the -8 was my daily drive (of course, the terminal it's attached to would work great hooked up directly to a modem...) So I'm not really sure if an -8 deserves a multipler of 3, or more than 3... certainly not less, and certainly no less than a CP/M machine. -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 14 16:49:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Check out artical on Data Format Storage In-Reply-To: <42AF4DB3.nail56C1EMDG8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: > RD Keys wrote: > > In the July 2005 issue of Technology Review there's an article about the > > over 16,000 formats of data that the NARA has to store and make available > > forever. They have two companies working on a way to store all this data > > in their correct data format but be able to review it at anytime in the > > future. > > What you fail to mention is the magnitude of the effort: $136,000,000 > is the budget Bush wants for this. > > My efforts to steer the efforts towards sanity were completely ignored. > If you aren't a defense contractor with a marketing budget to woo > politicians, you have no say in how this goes. > > I want to be optimistic about the process and results but I wasted > too many years trying to make it work. > > Tim. (not in a good mood...) Well, with the FBI basically dropping hundreds of millions into a system that they ultimately scrapped, I don't expect this to go anywhere. This effort will also just serve the purpose of lining the pockets of a couple big contractors whose sole purpose is to drain the US of its resources until the dollar is trading at 1/10 the value of the Mexican Peso. (Joining in Tim's cynicism...) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From appleto at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 16:56:32 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:56:32 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <42AF4EF0.2060709@Rikers.org> References: <20050614205722.203C370C986F@bitsavers.org> <42AF4EF0.2060709@Rikers.org> Message-ID: I'm a bit confused here. Can you please explain what you mean? On 6/14/05, Tim Riker wrote: > Ronald Wayne wrote: > > The Sun 3 is based upon a 68020, so the multiplier is 2. > > > > On 6/14/05, Al Kossow wrote: > > > >>looking at the points/multipier a Sun 3/60 running BSD will be the > > >>knee of the effort/points curve. > > hence the "knee" unless you know of a system that can do the same on one > of the 3 based processors. The point being that doing all the protocols > on a 2 based system is fairly easy. And doing even one of them on a 3 is > a challenge. > > -- > Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org > Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ > BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! > From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 14 17:02:04 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:02:04 -0400 Subject: Check out artical on Data Format Storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42AF53DC.nail5E211HM83@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > (Joining in Tim's cynicism...) Keep in mind that if they ever do get out of "analysis paralysis" (this subject has come up many times before for the past several decades but nothing is ever actually done by the government projects!) that there is enough money in the project to not just distort the market for Classic Computers, but to totally obliterate the entire concept of random individuals with old machines at home. There's a very big chunk of a billion dollars involved. If you thought that dkdkk guy on E-bay was distorting things, you ain't seen nothing yet. When the defense contractors decide they need all of "x", there will be total havoc. Tim. From appleto at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 17:09:46 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:09:46 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <42AF3CB4.8070101@Rikers.org> Message-ID: On 6/14/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Not necessarily a lynch mob, but many 1982/1983 models of PDP-11 are > somewhat easy to get UNIX running on (presuming one has enough disk). Well, you can stick Unix on a Sun 3 and Macintosh II and both of those have a multiplier of 2. Perhaps some shuffling of processors and machines is in order for next year, when I know more and I don't end up disappointing people by changing a rule to their detriment. Now my knowledge of the PDP is, admittedly, near nil. I have a digital catalog from 1984 next to me, and it suggests that you could add an array of three disks for a total of 1.4 GB. Would that work on most PDP/11's? I don't know. Perhaps you can answer that one (the drive is an RA81). It also suggests that it would only take 5.5 square feet. Which probably explains my lack of interest in collecting minis. > So I'm not really sure if an -8 deserves a multipler of 3, or more > than 3... certainly not less, and certainly no less than a CP/M > machine. The amount of memory it could address appeared to be similar to the earliest personal computers, hence the three. Perhaps you're correct about the list needing a more flexible bottom, because a 4kB machine will be nowhere near as capable as a 64kK machine. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 14 17:14:10 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:14:10 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <20050614205722.203C370C986F@bitsavers.org> <42AF4EF0.2060709@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <200506141714.10815.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 14 June 2005 16:56, Ronald Wayne wrote: > I'm a bit confused here. Can you please explain what you mean? He's saying that it takes very little effort to make a Sun 3/60 do all of the protocols. Even with a 2x multiplier, it takes very little effort. With something like a 3/60, you'll get the best points:effort ratio of anything that falls in your list. On anything with a "3" multiplier, it'll be very difficult to get even just 1 protocol working. Thus, a lot of effort for few points. I think your "3" multiplier maybe needs to be changed to a "5" or "6" multiplier at least.. Perhaps get rid of the "1" multiplier machines and change the "2" multiplier to be a "1", and the "3" could then stay about where it is. :) > On 6/14/05, Tim Riker wrote: > > Ronald Wayne wrote: > > > The Sun 3 is based upon a 68020, so the multiplier is 2. > > > > > > On 6/14/05, Al Kossow wrote: > > >>looking at the points/multipier a Sun 3/60 running BSD > > >> will be the > > >> > > >>knee of the effort/points curve. > > > > hence the "knee" unless you know of a system that can do the same > > on one of the 3 based processors. The point being that doing all > > the protocols on a 2 based system is fairly easy. And doing even > > one of them on a 3 is a challenge. > > > > -- > > Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org > > Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ > > BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Jun 14 17:14:53 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:14:53 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 References: Message-ID: <003001c5712e$80d627c0$4c92d6d1@randy> From: "Bill Sudbrink" Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 4:07 PM > Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> From: "Stan Barr" >> > Sellam Ismail said: >> >> What's the challenge in that? I was online with my Apple //e in 1992. >> > >> > I've used my Mac SE (1988) online, but not in 1988! I could put it >> > back online now if I dug the modem out of the bits box. >> >> In the 70's I was calling up RCP/M's with my SOL-20, who >> understands bye? :) >> > > Since we seem to be in a "can you top this" mood... In the 1970's, I was > dialing into the NBS TIP with an OSI C1P (terminal program loaded from > cassette tape) using a "modem" (that almost doesn't deserve the name) > built > from a kit ordered from a little ad in the back of Byte. The "modem" > consisted of a 2 inch square board with three chips on it. The speaker > and mic hung off of wires. I attached them to the telephone handset with > rubber bands. The "modem" attached directly to the USART chip in the C1P, > talking serial at TTL levels. As one of the chips on the "modem" would > heat up, the carrier frequency would shift (you could hear it). To keep > from dropping the connection, I kept a little baggie with an ice cube in > it at hand and would apply it to the chip to bring the temp down. Played > the pre-commercial Zork on MIT-DM that way. I remember the "modem" kits, the same company also sold cassette interfaces (Kansas city format) that were the same basic circuit. At the time most were illegally connected (no DAA) ;-) I remember when Hayes finally came out with a smart 300 baud modem and I could finally go high speed. I have a Hayes S100 modem but it hasn't been fired up in years and wouldn't dare try now, if one of the epoxy modules blew up I'd cry. I should still have a DAA around also. I used some AJ acoustical adaptors also. I had a buddy that just plugged in his SOL-20 cassette port into a coupler he had and would transfer to some other friends at 1200 baud while I was just running my new 300 baud modem. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 14 17:15:21 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M serial disk image transfer. Message-ID: <200506142215.PAA10455@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dave Dunfield" > >Hi Guys, > >Having a large quantity of 8" disks that I need to archive/send to >someone, and neither of us having teledisk working on an compatible >8" drive, and not having nearly enough 8" media to spare to send >physical copies... > >I have created another serial link disk imaging program. > Hi Dave I've not had the need for this so far but expect to sometime in the future. Most of the CP/M machines that I have either are common and have disk with them or are so uncommon that I've needed to hand build the disk from scratch. I have used the serial port to transfer information but once I have the basic core working, I just transfer files. If it is a binary file, I've used Intel Hex format and DDT to save to a binary. It would be interesting to compile a web page with all the different tricks used to handle the various image and file transfer problems of these older systems. Things like how to connect a 8 inch disk or a little source code that shows how to do console to disk transfers using the CP/M bios. One could include things like my H8/H89 image transfer program and my Olivetti M20 disk image building code. I have code from another fellow to move Polymorphic disk images from a Poly 881x to a PC with xmodem( windows supports ). There are so many ways to skin a cat. Each has a slightly different advantage under some conditions. Just a thought Dwight From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 14 07:00:33 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:00:33 -0400 Subject: Found a PDP-8 today! In-Reply-To: <00c101c570d4$abef6de0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <3.0.6.32.20050613231330.00a08e10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050614080033.009ad4d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:31 AM 6/14/05 -0400, John A. wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5207512513 > >I had some "words" to say about the quality of the photo but withheld >them since this is a Classiccmp person. Looks like it was >photographed through a window. Clean up that picture, Tom! THAT'S what I told him too. I'm going back down there today. Maybe I'll take my camera a take some pictures. Joe > >> > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 14 17:19:04 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board Message-ID: <200506142219.PAA10459@clulw009.amd.com> >X-Server-Uuid: 89466532-923C-4A88-82C1-66ACAA0041DF >X-URL: http://www.ultrafunk.com/products/popcorn/ >Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:44:14 -0400 >From: "Allison" >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Priority: 3 >Subject: Re: MITS 8800B CPU Board >X-BeenThere: cctalk at classiccmp.org >X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 >List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >List-Unsubscribe: , >List-Archive: >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Subscribe: , >X-MMS-Spam-Confidence: moderate >X-MMS-Content-Rating: broadcast >X-MMS-Spam-Filter-ID: A2005061307_IBF_2.0.0 >X-WSS-ID: 6EB0F72E1CW1619994-01-01 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >> >>Subject: Re: MITS 8800B CPU Board >> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:12:04 -0700 (PDT) >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >>>From: "river" >>> >>>Hi, >>> >>>Thanks for your replies. I found the relevant information. >>> >>>I have an extensive inventory and can source the parts and get this poor, >>battered board back to its old self again. However, looking through the doco I >>noticed that the 8800B requires a display/control and interface boards. A >>question for those of you that own a MITS8800 - does it need those boards for a >>turnkey system? Can I plug the CPU board into the backplane and run it without >>the d/c and i/f cards, assuming I set up the ROM and RAM cards for the system? >>If not, (since I do not have the d/c and i/f cards) I'll have to try and build >>them from the cct diagrams I have obtained. This is do-able (but a lot of work) >>if I can get my hands on some blank S100 w/wrap boards, but I noticed there's a >>1702 EPROM chip and I'd need to get the memory map for this chip to burn my own. >>> >>>Failing that, and it's all too hard and bothersome for me, is there anyone that >>would need a repaired 8800 CPU card for trade or anything similar? >>> >>>rgds >>>river >>> >> >>Hi >> It should work on a turnkey. Almost everything goes >>through the S100 bus. Only the direct connect of the >>data bus goes directly between the panel and the CPU board. >>I don't think that is needed. You will have to have code >>residing at address 0000. This is not common. Most >>expected a working front panel that could load a boot >>address. >> Some ROM boards have a way to be at 0000 after reset >>and then switch to someplace else once things are booted. >> Don't give up on it. When there is a will, there will >>be a way. >>Dwight > > >Yes, you will have to have rom at 0000h though and Mwrite >was derived and delivered from the front pannel if memory >serves. So that means ram will have to be set up to not >require Mwrite. Either that or you will have to through >something small together to create Mwrite. > >As to mapping rom out once operational, thats a later problem. >It's fairly easy to do. > >Allison Hi I've done this on my NC4000 based computer. It is nice to have it all in clean RAM. One can do things like hot patching code( not recommended for the faint of heart ). Dwight From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 17:34:33 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:34:33 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <42AF3CB4.8070101@Rikers.org> Message-ID: On 6/14/05, Ronald Wayne wrote: > On 6/14/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Not necessarily a lynch mob, but many 1982/1983 models of PDP-11 are > > somewhat easy to get UNIX running on (presuming one has enough disk). > > Well, you can stick Unix on a Sun 3 and Macintosh II and both of those > have a multiplier of 2. Perhaps some shuffling of processors and > machines is in order for next year, when I know more and I don't end > up disappointing people by changing a rule to their detriment. Fair enough... after all, for 99% of the computing public, a PDP-11 is something that they've seen in a movie or something that they'd be afraid to have fall on them, not a computing option for the home... as you said, we are "special". > Now my knowledge of the PDP is, admittedly, near nil. I have a > digital catalog from 1984 next to me, and it suggests that you could > add an array of three disks for a total of 1.4 GB. Would that work on > most PDP/11's? I don't know. Perhaps you can answer that one (the > drive is an RA81). It also suggests that it would only take 5.5 > square feet. Which probably explains my lack of interest in > collecting minis. The RA81 is a 450MB "SDI" drive (a proprietary DEC interface). It weighs well over 100lbs, and was, in 1984, $26,000. 4 in a cabinet (max per controller, but multiple controllers are possible) with a CPU is not an unreasonable configuration, but one doesn't need to go that large to run UNIX on a PDP-11... 30MB-60MB is plenty for a basic 2.9BSD system with enough room for kernel sources and some user space (10MB is enough for a binary-only install and virtually no user space). One DEC cabinet is under 6 square feet, and there's room in 6 vertical feet for a lot of drives and CPUs. We used to put two PDP-11s in the 6' cabinets to save floor space - a 10.5"-tall or 5.25"-tall CPU and one or two 10.5"-tall drives (same height as the RA81) A lot of weight, but once you decide to go with a racked system, it doesn't matter if it's a 72" H960 that's at home in the data center, or the shorter, blunter 42" cabs that were occasionally seen in office spaces - it's still about 2 feet wide by about 3 feet deep. I would hazard a guess that the RA-81 was not a common PDP-11 drive, even though it's perfectly compatible with one. I was thinking more along the lines of a $6000-$10000 drive, not a $20000-$30000 drive for someone who wanted to run 2BSD 22 years ago. Either way, completely different league from home equipment. The advantage is that Moore's Law makes such things affordable to regular Joes... I have never sat down and calculated the MSRP of my PDP-8, PDP-11, and VAX collection, but it's gotta be some *stupid* number... my actual price paid is a lot less than even one of them (considering my stuff goes up to VAX-8300, VAX-11/750s, PDP-11/70s, PDP-8 through PDP-8/a...) I've spent more in PDP-8 peripherals (disk controllers, memory...) than I ever did on the CPUs themselves. I only mention this because dragging minicomputers to a microcomputer "fight" (to paraphrase) really tips the playing field. To be sure, lots of people _wanted_ PDP-11 and PDP-8 gear 20+ years ago, but affording it was another matter entirely. > The amount of memory it could address appeared to be similar to the > earliest personal computers, hence the three. Perhaps you're correct > about the list needing a more flexible bottom, because a 4kB machine > will be nowhere near as capable as a 64kK machine. Right... a base PDP-8 is 4K (12-bit words), but a 1983 system (PDP-8/a) was easy to load up with 16K or 32K, and possible (but expensive and rare) to load with 128K. If one was planning on running OS/8 on a PDP-8/a (think microwave-oven-sized CPU), 16K to 32K was once common. Colossal Cave probably requires 32K, but not much else _needed_ a full boat of memory. Besides Kermit, I'm drawing a blank on telecommunication software. Since the -8 and C don't get along, it's non-trivial to port modern software to that platform. C grew up on the PDP-11, so even if you are using RT-11 (again, think CP/M for how it handles), one can take modern stuff in C and if it fits in memory (64K programs push one of the limits of the architecture, depending on the exact CPU on hand), one can back-port things to that environment. Of course, at this level, we are well out of the realm of a lot of the Apple and Atari owners of old. Sure, there were plenty of programmers and engineers, but one consequence of pretty colors and attractive sounds is that people who just wanted to "get something done" without building everything from scratch started to come along. I would say that the "average" PDP-8 user in 1982 did more programming than the "average" Apple II user, but they are different machines with different price points filling different market segments. -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 14 17:33:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Bounties: TI Personal Consultant Plus and M1 Expert Shell ($$$) Message-ID: I am currently seeking the following software for a client: Texas Instruments Personal Consultant Plus (tm) expert shell (circa 1987). M1 Expert Shell (circa late 1980s). Both of these expert systems are PC-based. If you have either of these, please contact me privately. This is a bounty so there's a cash reward! Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 14 17:44:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Check out artical on Data Format Storage In-Reply-To: <42AF53DC.nail5E211HM83@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > (Joining in Tim's cynicism...) > > Keep in mind that if they ever do get out of "analysis paralysis" (this > subject has come up many times before for the past several decades but > nothing is ever actually done by the government projects!) that there > is enough money in the project to not just distort the market for > Classic Computers, but to totally obliterate the entire concept of > random individuals with old machines at home. There's a very big > chunk of a billion dollars involved. If you thought that dkdkk guy on > E-bay was distorting things, you ain't seen nothing yet. When the > defense contractors decide they need all of "x", there will be > total havoc. Hmm, might be a good occasion to get out of collecting and sell what I've got then ;') -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jhoger at pobox.com Tue Jun 14 18:00:14 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:00:14 -0700 Subject: Coco variations (was: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1118790014.9735.537.camel@aragorn> On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 23:48 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > IIRC, Tandy also made a "Vidoetext" terminal that was in a white version > > of the Coco 1 case. > > I've always wondered what was inside that Videotex machine. I've not seen > the service manual on the web anywhere, and I've never seen any info in > print. Is it a modified CoCo? Does it even have a 6809 + 6883 (SAM) + > 6847 (VDG) in the middile of it? > > -tony > > I believe the videotex terminal was the predecessor to the coco 1. It's motherboard was based on Motorola's reference design for the 6809. The videotex machine was silver. The later white coco 1's were general purpose machines (I'm not sure if they all had 64K but maybe). At the very least they had a different keyboard. The original chiclet keyboard has one advantage-- you can put a template over it to give special meaning to each key, and these templates were shipped with some programs. -- John. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 14 18:04:21 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:04:21 -0400 Subject: Pictures Re: Found a PDP-8 today! In-Reply-To: <00c101c570d4$abef6de0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <3.0.6.32.20050613231330.00a08e10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050614190421.0098e250@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I went down there today and took some pictures for him. They're at . Joe At 07:31 AM 6/14/05 -0400, you wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5207512513 > >I had some "words" to say about the quality of the photo but withheld >them since this is a Classiccmp person. Looks like it was >photographed through a window. Clean up that picture, Tom! > >John A. > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 14 18:16:37 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:16:37 -0400 Subject: Found a PDP-8 today! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050613231330.00a08e10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050614191637.0098de30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> A surplus dealer in Melbourne Fla has bought most of the stuff that Tom had. I've been helping move DEC stuff for the last TWO days! It looks like it will take at least two MORE days to get the rest of it. And that's with THREE large trucks and a trailor and a gang of men. Today I took some pictures of just some of the stuff. This stuff is all at a surplus company now and will be sold (cheap) or it will be scrapped. If you look through the pictures you'll spot some real treasures. If any of you are intersted in DEC stuff you NEED to come down to Melbourne and dig through the piles and rescue the good stuff. Here is a link to the stores website, it has a map shgowing the location. . Ask for Roger (he's the owner) and tell him that Joe sent ya. There are a LOT of working hard drives for DECs, COUNTLESS DEC chassis and boards, Lear Sigler terminals, TEC 400 Series terminals, PILES of DEC terminals and PILES more. Today I found a Cromemco system, a COMPLETE DEC 11/44 with dual FDs and a hard drive and MORE docs and software. Oh and some good HP stuff. Joe At 11:13 PM 6/13/05 -0400, you wrote: > I went with a buddy of mine to pick up some DEC equipment today. I got >to talking to the equipment owner and asked if he had a PDP-8. He did! But >it's already on E-bay :-( I took a look at it anyway and it's NICE! If >anyone is interested in buying a PDP-8, be sure and check it out. Unlike >most "systems" this one is a complete and working system and not just a >collection of cards, boxs and bits and pieces. This one has a PT reader, PT >punch, CPU, THREE RK-05 drives and an interface (it was once a controller >for a GenRad test system.) It's in a rack and everything is mounted the way >it should be and everything is cabled up and ready to operate. Since it was >a test system controller, it probably has a butt-load of IO cards too. >Everything works and it boots and runs OS-8. The three drives are all >aligned and you can swap the disks into any drive and read them. The >system is clean and in VERY nice condition. It's wrapped in shrink wrap so >the picture on E-bay doesn't do it justice. > >&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW>. > > Me? I got a CAR FULL of DEC software and documentation! > > Joe > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 14 18:34:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found a PDP-8 today! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050614191637.0098de30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Joe R. wrote: > Here is a link to the stores website, it has a > map shgowing the location. > . Ask for Roger (he's > the owner) and tell him that Joe sent ya. Does he try to convert you when you walk into the store? http://www.astrotoo.com/Contact_Information.html Sheesh. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Jun 14 18:42:10 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:42:10 -0700 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 References: <42AF3CB4.8070101@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <42AF6B52.C9E9BA46@msm.umr.edu> Ethan Dicks wrote: . Besides Kermit, I'm drawing a blank > on telecommunication software. Since the -8 and C don't get along, > it's non-trivial to port modern software to that platform. > > > -ethan worth mentioning that Tymnet used pdp 8's as did a network that I know ADP was running as node controllers. I doubt that much of that software was ever released, and I am sure all was scrapped when the 8's went out the door. I had some opportunity to buy hardware when they scrapped both the Tymnet and ADP systems, but already had my 8 specimen and not enough to compete for the scrap value of 8's then. I was cheap, and only bought stuff when it was in the neighborhood of $50 to $100 to acquire. no disputing the above comment on porting C to the 8, just a useless bit of data. Jim From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jun 14 18:52:49 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:52:49 -0400 Subject: Procedure For Connecting To The 'net Circa 1978 Message-ID: That last exchange of messages has me reminiscing so (with a little tongue in cheek)... Procedure For Connecting To The 'net Circa 1978 (That's the ARPANET for all you young whipper-snappers. What we called the internet before they let all of the riff-raff in.) Initial notes: Do not begin this procedure before 11PM. This avoids conflicts over telephone usage with your parents. Net resources are generally not available to "tourists" before this time anyway. Resource availability is generally best on Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights and holidays. Keep an ear open for police sirens. Rumor has it that the FCC will come and arrest you (and/or your parents) if it detects illegal equipment attached to the telephone system. Another reason to operate late at night, they probably aren't watching. 1) Move your computer from your bedroom to the kitchen table (that's where the phone is!). Don't connect power to the modem yet, it produces a carrier whenever it is powered and you need to be able to hear the far end of the telephone connection when you first dial. Also, you want it to be cool when you initiate the connection. 2) Take the handset off of the hook and replace it with the piece of broomstick that you fashioned for that purpose. 3) Get a big towel from the linen closet. Fold it into quarters and put the handset on it. Attach the speaker and microphone to the handset with wide rubber bands. Fold the towel over the handset. This will prevent various ambient sounds (like the sound of typing) from introducing noise on the line. 4) Being sure that the cassette/modem switch (a DPDT switch that connects the transmit and receive pins of the USART to either the cassette interface or the modem) is in the cassette position, load the terminal program. Run the program. You are greeted with a blank screen (this is normal but you can't be 100% sure that it loaded correctly until you have connected). Switch the cassette/modem switch to modem. You may see a few garbage characters on the screen (that's a good sign). 5) Get an ice cube from the freezer, put it in a sandwich bag and put it on the towel next to the modem. 6) Remove the broom stick from the telephone hook and dial the NBS (National Bureau of Standards) TIP (Terminal Interface Processor). Listen for the call to be answered and for the carrier on the far end. Sometimes the TIP is down and won't answer, sometimes it is down and will answer but won't give a carrier. If it's down, wait an hour and try again. 7) If you get a carrier, apply power to the modem. Start pressing the @ (at) key once a second until it is echoed on your screen. Listen for the chirp when you press the key. If you don't hear it, the terminal program isn't running correctly, hang up, unpower the modem, reset the computer and go back to step 4. 8) Once the @ character is echoed, press enter. You should get an error message (I no longer remember the text). Now type "@O 77". This instructs the TIP to connect you to the MIT-DM (Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Dynamic Modeling) computer. 9) Start pressing the return key once a second until you get a logon prompt (I no longer remember the prompt text). The user name and password are GUEST. 10) Once logged on, wait for a minute or two, pressing enter every ten seconds or so. This gives the operator a chance to notice you and kick you off if the system is busy. If he's in a chatty mood, you'll get a message like "The system's busy, get lost!". If not, your connection will just die. If the system is busy, try again in an hour or so. 11) I no longer remember how to start up Zork or some of the other programs... anyone feel free to provide details I'm missing. Keep an ear on the connection. If the carrier starts to change pitch, wipe any condensation off the ice cube bag on the towel and then apply to the smaller chip on the right on the modem board. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 19:04:19 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:04:19 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <42AF6B52.C9E9BA46@msm.umr.edu> References: <42AF3CB4.8070101@Rikers.org> <42AF6B52.C9E9BA46@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On 6/14/05, jim stephens wrote: > worth mentioning that Tymnet used pdp 8's as did a network that > I know ADP was running as node controllers. I doubt that much > of that software was ever released, and I am sure all was scrapped > when the 8's went out the door. And the 680/i for the PDP-10 was -8/i based... but I was thinking more about end-user telecommunication stuff rather than embedded "under the sheets" network infrastructure. One issue, I think, is that most PDP-8s had a single serial port - the console port. You could _add_ serial ports, but except for EDUsystems (single-CPU BASIC timesharing systems), in my experience, PDP-8 serial ports were expensive enough (prior to, say DECmates) that machines tended not to have anything past the console. If DEC had added a second serial port on the DKC8AA, things might have been different, but they chose to load the "standard" PDP-8/a I/O board with one console, 12-bits in, 12-bits out (which could be used as a printer port), and programmer's front-panel interface. Since most -8/a boxes came with that board, it would have set the standard higher. To tie this back into the consumer experience, it was a lightly-loaded -8/a that David Ahl tried to push within DEC as the answer to the surge in demand for hobbyist computers in the 1970s. If I remember his proposal, an entry-level machine might have a smaller chassis (4 slots? 8 slots?), a similarly scaled PSU, a 4K SRAM board, the KK8A processor, and some sort of console, perhaps the DKC8AA, perhaps something with fewer features at a lower end-user price. The starting price would have easily been right at home with what Altairs and Imsais were sitting at, with a much higher production quality, and a *wad* of existing 12-bit programs. I'm not saying that the PDP-8 would have taken over the home hobby world, but the right system at that time would have been quite popular. With the IM6100 and IM6120 microprocessors following the KK8A close behind, things might have been interesting. -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 14 19:06:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Procedure For Connecting To The 'net Circa 1978 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Man, that's a lot of work. I would instead just go out in the backyard and build a fort or a go-kart or something :) On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > That last exchange of messages has me reminiscing so > (with a little tongue in cheek)... > > Procedure For Connecting To The 'net Circa 1978 > > (That's the ARPANET for all you young whipper-snappers. > What we called the internet before they let all of the > riff-raff in.) > > Initial notes: > Do not begin this procedure before 11PM. This avoids > conflicts over telephone usage with your parents. Net > resources are generally not available to "tourists" before > this time anyway. Resource availability is generally best > on Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights and holidays. > > Keep an ear open for police sirens. Rumor has it that the > FCC will come and arrest you (and/or your parents) if it > detects illegal equipment attached to the telephone system. > Another reason to operate late at night, they probably aren't > watching. > > 1) Move your computer from your bedroom to the kitchen > table (that's where the phone is!). Don't connect power > to the modem yet, it produces a carrier whenever it is > powered and you need to be able to hear the far end of > the telephone connection when you first dial. Also, you > want it to be cool when you initiate the connection. > > 2) Take the handset off of the hook and replace it with the > piece of broomstick that you fashioned for that purpose. > > 3) Get a big towel from the linen closet. Fold it into > quarters and put the handset on it. Attach the speaker > and microphone to the handset with wide rubber bands. > Fold the towel over the handset. This will prevent > various ambient sounds (like the sound of typing) from > introducing noise on the line. > > 4) Being sure that the cassette/modem switch (a DPDT switch > that connects the transmit and receive pins of the USART > to either the cassette interface or the modem) is in the > cassette position, load the terminal program. Run the > program. You are greeted with a blank screen (this is > normal but you can't be 100% sure that it loaded correctly > until you have connected). Switch the cassette/modem switch > to modem. You may see a few garbage characters on the > screen (that's a good sign). > > 5) Get an ice cube from the freezer, put it in a sandwich bag > and put it on the towel next to the modem. > > 6) Remove the broom stick from the telephone hook and dial the > NBS (National Bureau of Standards) TIP (Terminal Interface > Processor). Listen for the call to be answered and for the > carrier on the far end. Sometimes the TIP is down and won't > answer, sometimes it is down and will answer but won't give > a carrier. If it's down, wait an hour and try again. > > 7) If you get a carrier, apply power to the modem. Start > pressing the @ (at) key once a second until it is echoed > on your screen. Listen for the chirp when you press the > key. If you don't hear it, the terminal program isn't running > correctly, hang up, unpower the modem, reset the computer and > go back to step 4. > > 8) Once the @ character is echoed, press enter. You should get > an error message (I no longer remember the text). Now type > "@O 77". This instructs the TIP to connect you to the > MIT-DM (Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Dynamic Modeling) > computer. > > 9) Start pressing the return key once a second until you get a > logon prompt (I no longer remember the prompt text). The user > name and password are GUEST. > > 10) Once logged on, wait for a minute or two, pressing enter every > ten seconds or so. This gives the operator a chance to notice > you and kick you off if the system is busy. If he's in a chatty > mood, you'll get a message like "The system's busy, get lost!". > If not, your connection will just die. If the system is busy, > try again in an hour or so. > > 11) I no longer remember how to start up Zork or some of the other > programs... anyone feel free to provide details I'm missing. > Keep an ear on the connection. If the carrier starts to change > pitch, wipe any condensation off the ice cube bag on the towel > and then apply to the smaller chip on the right on the modem > board. > -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 14 19:22:32 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:22:32 -0400 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <42AF3CB4.8070101@Rikers.org> <42AF6B52.C9E9BA46@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <42AF74C8.nail6G211OFGK@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > [PDP-8/a for home use] The starting price would have easily been > right at home with what Altair and Imsais were sitting at I think that's the right ballpark - and the 8/a actually could have been a year or two earlier, hitting in the early 70's instead of the mid 70's. The $400 that Intel wanted for an 8080A + the support chips they wanted you to buy will buy a lot of TTL! I suspect that the 8/a and Omnibus would've seen a "shrink" to higher density PCB's. As it was, DEC sold 8/a/e/f's up through the mid 80's and never really increased the density of TTL chips on those boards. Maybe the savings from such a shrink really weren't very big? Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 14 18:20:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:20:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Asunto: Rescued: HP85, HP86B, 912x drives - score! - Update In-Reply-To: <424AACA100032EE6@resmta01.ono.com> from "SP" at Jun 9, 5 01:08:58 pm Message-ID: > > > I am searching for one disk drive for my HP150. By the way, I need too one > keyboard and the thermal printer of the top. Since you mention the thermal printer, I assume this is an original HP150 (with 2 expansion slots at the back) and not an HP150-II (with 4 expansion slots on the top). In which case, the keyboard is specific to this machine (the 150-II uses an HP-HIL keyboard) I _think_ there's a schematic of this keyboard in the technical manual (which I have) and I don't think it used any custom parts (like a programmed microcontroller). I can dig out the manual and take a look if you want to consider homebrewing something. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 14 18:26:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:26:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050611081318.0217ceb8@localhost> from "Richard Smith" at Jun 11, 5 08:14:10 am Message-ID: > > At 00:29 04/06/2005, you wrote: > > >They're a bit like the good old Q-max cutters (now that is showing my age > >[1]). > > > >[1] The first 3 I ever bought, over 25 years ago, were 5/8", 3/4" and > >1+1/8". Why? > > > >-tony > > You were building a Mullard 5/10 valve (tube) amp! Close, but no cigar :-) The 5-10 (5 valves 10 watts) used an EF86, ECC83, 2 off EL84 and an EZ81. All are on B9A bases, so I'd only have needed the 3/4" punch. I can't remember the hole size for the Bulgin plugs used for the mains and speaker connections, but I think it was smaller than 1+1/8". Now, had you said the 5-20 (line up : EF86, ECC83, 2 off EL34, GZ32), then I would have needed the 3/4" and 1+1/8". And had I also been building the companion FM tuner, I would have needed the 5/8" (for the EB91 detector double diode, I think the B8A 'rimlock' sockets for the EF41s would go in a 3/4" hole). Yes, I do have the appropriate Mullard books. And the Williamson reprints. And the GEC book on audio amplifiers (which starts with the Williamson and goes on to a monster with a rated 1.1kW audio output power). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 14 18:30:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:30:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: [GreenKeys] Rock and Roll Teletype 'experts' In-Reply-To: <12526c5143a7786e18ded856cf92b316@norbionics.com> from "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=" at Jun 11, 5 11:31:35 am Message-ID: > Really? I would have thought most people here knew that Baudot's > teletype dates back to 1870, and was operational in 1877. > His keyboard had only five keys, but it was ITU 1. > Or do think it is little known because Britain were late adopters and > the US was on a different trail? A bit later, but I have a set of 6 books entitled 'Modern Electrical Engineering' which I estimate date from between 1910 and 1920. These contain a description of the Baudot telegraph system with diagrams of the machinerey, circuits for the 'Quadruplex', etc. It appears to have been well in use by then. Said books also contain a description of a lovely electromechanical FIFO system used to store train descriptors on the London Underground (and its associated binary to 1-of-n decoder) ... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 14 18:41:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:41:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Creating text PDFs from scans In-Reply-To: <55493.207.145.53.202.1118711165.squirrel@207.145.53.202> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 13, 5 06:06:05 pm Message-ID: > > Gary wrote: > > For a minor fee (perhaps around $2), I'd be willing to > > take scans of manuals and documents and hand retype them > > into searchable PDF files for distribution, retaining > > original images and formatting, just acting as a human > > OCR of sorts ;) > > I can't imagine that you mean $2 per document, so is that > $2 per page? If it's $2 per document, how about giving him volume 3 of the HP71 IDS (== ROM source listing) and volume one of the 'NOMAS' HP75C stuff (also a ROM source listing). Both were printed at 4 pages to the A4 side, both are very thick! -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 14 19:34:06 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:34:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <42AF74C8.nail6G211OFGK@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > I suspect that the 8/a and Omnibus would've seen a "shrink" to > higher density PCB's. As it was, DEC sold 8/a/e/f's up through > the mid 80's and never really increased the density of TTL chips > on those boards. Maybe the savings from such a shrink really > weren't very big? I doubt DEC sold enough 8s in the 80s to make it worthwhile. Board (or more nowadays, chip) shinking only makes sense when the volume is quite large. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 14 18:54:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:54:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: from "Ronald Wayne" at Jun 14, 5 10:04:44 am Message-ID: > > Do you depend upon modern computers, or are you a creative spirit who > can push the limits of your old hardware in order to fulfill your > everyday needs? The Retrochallenge is where you find out. > > What are these challenges? If you enjoy creating original artwork, > music, or programs on your legacy computer, then the creative > challenges are for you. The second challenge is simply using a > qualifying computer through the month of July, in a competition to see > can survive a month without the latest in gadgetry. The third > challenges judges how well you could communicate with the outside > world on a retrocomputer. I don't have what you'd class as a moden computer -- I do all my work on classics. OK, I do sometimes use a more modern machine owned by somebody else (e.g. in an internet cafe), but I can certainly manage without them (I could not manage without the clasiscs, though). Your list of processors bothers me. The 486 and 68040 are certainly not ancient in my book. They're far too modern to be interesting. But you've missed of plenty of older processors : 6800/6802/6803/6809 Z8 Z80/64180 8008/8080/8085 650x (not just the 6502, there were other varients...) SC/MP 6120 (PDP8 on a chip) DEC's LSI11/T11/F11/J11 MicroVAX 32016 Trasnputer HP's NUT, Saturn, Capricorn, etc And I don't believe a processor has to be a single chip. What about the boards of TTL, PALs, Bit-slice, etc as in PDP8/e PDP11 (older Unibus machines) VAX11/7xx Philps P800 series (which covers TTL implementations, Philips' own custom bit-slice chip calles SPALU, a single chip version, a version using AMD2900 bit-slice, etc) 3 Rivers PERQ HP98x0 Or discrete transistors : PDP8 HP9100 Those lists are by no means complete.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 14 19:00:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 01:00:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replacing drives on classic systems was Wild-hair floppy drive In-Reply-To: <001001c5710b$7b2505d0$f43cd7d1@randy> from "Randy McLaughlin" at Jun 14, 5 01:04:11 pm Message-ID: > This issue only affects 3.5" drives which no longer use the same termination > (but is compatible with). I am pretty sure I've seen some recent-ish 5.25" drives that have the same pull-ups (not termination, strictly) as the PC-type 3.5" drives. > > I'll have to look up the technical details (hopefully someone will speak up > first) but basically the floppy drivers on PC's have gone from open > collector TTL to CMOS changing the characteristics of the line drivers. Termination is related to the cable type, and not the drivers!. You should terminate the cable with its characteristic impedance at the far end (from the driver), this was typically a 150 Ohm resistor. It also acted as a pull up for the open-collector TTL drivers. Problem was, users couldn't be relied upon to put a termination resistor pack in the last drive on the cable. So later drives (including most 3.5" ones) just have 1k pull up resistors on all the lines. These are not terminators, they do not remove reflections on the cable. It seems to work OK, but it's a kludge... It probably is OK if you have the drives in the same box as the controller, and thus a fairly short cable. I wouldn't want to use it on a couple of metres of cable, though. When I put the external 3.5" drives on my XT, I desoldered the (surface mount) resistors from the drives and made up a terminator to plug into the end of the cable. It may have worked without doing that, but I don't like risking my data. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 14 19:02:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 01:02:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dodgy IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 14, 5 11:26:04 am Message-ID: > Yes, I did this. I can short the two leads of the switch but I get the > same symptoms. There's something wrong with the electronics. When you say the 'same symptoms', what do you have to press/hold just right for it to work? Assuming this is an electronic problem, I would first test all the electrolytics on an ESR meter. High-ESR capacitors cause the most odd faults on SMPUSs... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 14 19:16:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 01:16:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Coco variations (was: Proper name for Tandy Color Computer? In-Reply-To: <1118790014.9735.537.camel@aragorn> from "John R. Hogerhuis" at Jun 14, 5 04:00:14 pm Message-ID: > I believe the videotex terminal was the predecessor to the coco 1. It's > motherboard was based on Motorola's reference design for the 6809. I was under the impression that the CoCo was sold first (which was designed first is another matter). The CoCo 1 design is very close to the Motorola app note for the 6883 SAM... > > The videotex machine was silver. The later white coco 1's were general Early CoCo1s were silver too... > purpose machines (I'm not sure if they all had 64K but maybe). At the > very least they had a different keyboard. > > The original chiclet keyboard has one advantage-- you can put a template > over it to give special meaning to each key, and these templates were > shipped with some programs. YEs, I have a couple. I can't remember which programs they're for, though, and I am not going to hunt for them to check... -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 14 19:41:02 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:41:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8s and -10s Message-ID: Speaking of PDP-8s, and now PDP-10s - a thought that passed my mind: Is there a good reason why DEC did not use the PDP-8 architecture in the PDP-10, for proper channel controllers? Cheap, versatile, sixbit, and when the KA10 came out, already designed. I would have thought it to be an obvious "drop-in" solution. Any thoughts? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vp at cs.drexel.edu Tue Jun 14 20:29:33 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:29:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [GreenKeys] Rock and Roll Teletype 'experts' Message-ID: <20050615012933.5709A3BAD2@queen.cs.drexel.edu> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > A bit later, but I have a set of 6 books entitled 'Modern Electrical > Engineering' which I estimate date from between 1910 and 1920. These > contain a description of the Baudot telegraph system with diagrams of the > machinerey, circuits for the 'Quadruplex', etc. It appears to have been > well in use by then. > > Said books also contain a description of a lovely electromechanical FIFO > system used to store train descriptors on the London Underground (and its > associated binary to 1-of-n decoder) ... which I suppose are still in use in the New York subway :-) **vp From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Jun 14 20:29:38 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8s and -10s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050615012938.65472.qmail@web81309.mail.yahoo.com> --- William Donzelli wrote: > Is there a good reason why DEC did not use the PDP-8 > architecture in the > PDP-10, for proper channel controllers? Cheap, > versatile, sixbit, and when > the KA10 came out, already designed. I would have > thought it to be an > obvious "drop-in" solution. DEC believed that DMA ("data break") was a more cost-effective solution than IBM-style intelligent channels, going all the way back to the PDP-1 -- at least that is the impression that I got from the retrospective papers in "Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design". --Bill From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 14 20:28:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dodgy IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yes, I did this. I can short the two leads of the switch but I get the > > same symptoms. There's something wrong with the electronics. > > When you say the 'same symptoms', what do you have to press/hold just > right for it to work? Good question. Upon pondering this, I can only conclude that holding the switch in any particular position is not really what's making it work. I'm left with the conclusion that I am either affecting something else mechanically (such as the contact the power connector makes with the power socket) or there is a marginal component or circuit that works sometimes if the right conditions exist. The power connector (barrel type) had a bit of oxidation on the contacts which I tried to clean and scrape away. I got a fair amount off of it. I never thought to check the voltage coming out on the other end of connector, but I'll do that tonight. > Assuming this is an electronic problem, I would first test all the > electrolytics on an ESR meter. High-ESR capacitors cause the most odd > faults on SMPUSs... I'll need to find one... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 14 20:36:35 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:36:35 -0400 Subject: What is a DEC VT-61/T ? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050614213635.00989ec0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found several of these. They have a CRT on the left side and a fixed keyboard. They're wrapped up so I didn't get a better look. Joe From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 14 20:44:54 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:44:54 -0700 Subject: What is a DEC VT-61/T ? Message-ID: <42AF8816.1000509@bitsavers.org> From memory, they are used with DEC's typesetting system (DECset) They were commonly used by newspapers. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 14 20:39:31 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:39:31 -0400 Subject: More Pictures. Re: Found a PDP-8 today! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050614213931.009de740@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I just finished uploading pictures of SOME of the stuff that Astro-II picked up. Here they are . Joe A surplus dealer in Melbourne Fla has bought most of the stuff that Tom had. I've been helping move DEC stuff for the last TWO days! It looks like it will take at least two MORE days to get the rest of it. And that's with THREE large trucks and a trailor and a gang of men. Today I took some pictures of just some of the stuff. This stuff is all at a surplus company now and will be sold (cheap) or it will be scrapped. If you look through the pictures you'll spot some real treasures. If any of you are intersted in DEC stuff you NEED to come down to Melbourne and dig through the piles and rescue the good stuff. Here is a link to the stores website, it has a map shgowing the location. . Ask for Roger (he's the owner) and tell him that Joe sent ya. There are a LOT of working hard drives for DECs, COUNTLESS DEC chassis and boards, Lear Sigler terminals, TEC 400 Series terminals, PILES of DEC terminals and PILES more. Today I found a Cromemco system, a COMPLETE DEC 11/44 with dual FDs and a hard drive and MORE docs and software. Oh and some good HP stuff. Joe At 11:13 PM 6/13/05 -0400, you wrote: > I went with a buddy of mine to pick up some DEC equipment today. I got >to talking to the equipment owner and asked if he had a PDP-8. He did! But >it's already on E-bay :-( I took a look at it anyway and it's NICE! If >anyone is interested in buying a PDP-8, be sure and check it out. Unlike >most "systems" this one is a complete and working system and not just a >collection of cards, boxs and bits and pieces. This one has a PT reader, PT >punch, CPU, THREE RK-05 drives and an interface (it was once a controller >for a GenRad test system.) It's in a rack and everything is mounted the way >it should be and everything is cabled up and ready to operate. Since it was >a test system controller, it probably has a butt-load of IO cards too. >Everything works and it boots and runs OS-8. The three drives are all >aligned and you can swap the disks into any drive and read them. The >system is clean and in VERY nice condition. It's wrapped in shrink wrap so >the picture on E-bay doesn't do it justice. > >&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW>. > > Me? I got a CAR FULL of DEC software and documentation! > > Joe > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 14 20:43:43 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:43:43 -0400 Subject: Found a PDP-8 today! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050614191637.0098de30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050614214343.009d3b80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:34 PM 6/14/05 -0700, Sellam wrote: >On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >> Here is a link to the stores website, it has a >> map shgowing the location. >> . Ask for Roger (he's >> the owner) and tell him that Joe sent ya. > >Does he try to convert you when you walk into the store? No, Roger is a real Christian and is very tolerant of others. Personally I can't stand Bible-thumpers! Joe > >http://www.astrotoo.com/Contact_Information.html > >Sheesh. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 14 20:48:01 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:48:01 -0700 Subject: What is a DEC VT-61/T ? In-Reply-To: <42AF8816.1000509@bitsavers.org> References: <42AF8816.1000509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42AF88D1.4000109@bitsavers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > From memory, they are used with DEC's typesetting system (DECset) > They were commonly used by newspapers. > > here's a reference. They were used as terminals for DEC's transaction processing system (TRAX) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Path:cs.utk.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!MathWorks.Com!mvb.saic.com!info-vax Message-ID: <9408202049.AA16873 at uu3.psi.com> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 94 16:40:33 EDT From: Jerry Leichter Subject: RE: What is block mode? This might be a dumb question but I see in the SET TERMINAL command a qualifier called /BLOCK_MODE. Can somebody please explain to me what this might be used for ? What software would one need on the VAX to talk to a block mode terminal ? "norris8016 at delphi.com" comments: That qualifier is a relic of the days when DEC sold the VT131 block mode terminal. How well VMS handled such beasts I don't know. while "CANTERA at cisv.jsc.nasa.gov" describes IBM's block mode terminals, which transmit and receive blocks of characters - often whole screenfuls - at a time. Both are more or less right. A bit of background. First, the reason the qualifier exists at all is to help one write portable software - portable among different terminals, that is. At one time, on many earlier DEC OS's and on VMS prior to perhaps V3 (I'm not sure of the timing), operating systems kept very little information about terminals. Programs issued "what are you" escape sequences to terminals and acted based on the reply. Unfortunately, new terminals issued new replies - and programs stopped working. Anyone who used screen-oriented programs on, say, RSTS or RSX in the early '80's will recall programs that worked fine on VT100's, but refused to work on the functionally identical VT102. The eventual solution was to (a) come up with a list of "relevent" terminal characteristics; (b) centralize (in SET TERM) the knowledge of the connection between particular terminals and these characteristics; (c) insist that programs ask the OS about the specific characteristics they needed to operate, rather than try to figure out exactly what kind of terminal they were talking to. In addition, (d), the terminal answerback sequences were re-designed so that terminals, in addition to identifying themselves as "VT100" or "VT200 series", also reported their support of particular feature classes. The escape sequences involved are long and messy, and few programmers bother to try to parse them - they rely on SET TERM/INQUIRE's ability to do so and set the appropriate OS characteristics. The /BLOCK characteristic is one of just those characteristics. As "CANTERA" notes, the protypical block mode terminals are used in IBM environments. The interaction looks very different from the typical interaction with an ANSI terminal: The host sends a large block of data defining a form with various fields to be filled in to the terminal. The user fills in the form. Nothing is sent back to the host: The terminal positions the cursor to various fields in the form, and can enforce various constraints (a field is required; a field can only contain digits; a field is can hold up to 10 characters; and so on). When the user has filled in all the fields, he hits "send". The terminal gathers all the data from all the fields into a large, structured block and sends it to a host controller which receives it as one block, taking only on interrupt (rather than an interrupt for each character, as is typical of a DEC ASCII environment). Where appropriate, this kind of terminal imposes much less load on the host - IBM mainframes that by today's standards were less powerful than a typical PC supported hundreds of such terminals. Of course, if you want to write a screen editor like EDT, such a terminal won't work. As far as I know, DEC only made one true block mode terminal: The VT61 (or was it the VT62? I can no longer remember?) The VT61 was designed to be used with a long-forgotten system called TRAX. TRAX was a PDP-11-based dedicated transaction-processing system. A special terminal interface connected VT61's to a TRAX system; communication was based on multi-drop polled DDCMP. The VT61 could do all sorts of fancy on-screen editing before sending data back in a single DDCMP packet. (The VT62 - or perhaps I have the numbers backward - was a VT61 that used standard async lines. I don't know what they were supposed to be used for, and it's not clear to me that DEC ever actually *sold* any. Both terminals were based on the VT52, and did an impressive amount of processing for their size, given the era in which they were built. Within DEC, VT62's were used as VT52 replacements. When used this way, their main advantage was that, unlike the VT52, they supported reverse video.) The VT130 and the VT131 that replaced it were "pseudo-block-mode" terminals. They were, in a way, like the VT62: ASCII terminals connected over async lines that were able to do local editing and could send "blocks" of data - which were typically received a character at a time using standard async interfaces. (In principle, you could build hardware to efficiently receive whole delimited blocks, but I don't think anyone ever did - certainly, DEC didn't.) No DEC software ever used the block mode features, but a few third party vendors did (for fill-in-the-form and similar applications). When the VT200 series was introduced, none of the terminals in the series supported block mode. VT13x users stayed with their existing terminals. By the time the VT300 series was being designed, there was a clear demand from those users for a new terminal to replace the aging VT13x's - which DEC was actually still selling, I believe. Given the changes in technology over the years, the designers decided that it wasn't worth it create a special block mode VT300. Instead, the block mode features of the VT13x, with a few additions, were made part of the definition of the VT330 and VT340. (I don't recall if the VT320, which wasn't a "from the ground up" re-design but mainly a cost-reduced VT220, supported block mode.) If you look in the VT330/340 documentation, you'll find a chapter on "local editing mode", a more accurate description of the feature than "block mode" - but it's the same thing. You'll also find a note that "software support is required to use these features." As far as I know, no DEC software has ever used these features for anything - they were included entirely for users of non-DEC software who had been relying on the VT13x's. BTW, while it's not simple - it takes several keystrokes - it's possible to use the VT130's local edit mode to pick up anything currently on the screen, edit it, then send it to the host (i.e., on-screen cut and paste). Handy sometimes - but it's been long enough that I no longer remember how to do it! -- Jerry [Who was there when the VT300 series was being designed.] From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 14 21:01:27 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:01:27 -0700 Subject: 976x heads Message-ID: <42AF8BF7.2020604@bitsavers.org> http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/astro-ii/P6140259.jpg are heads for CDC 976x drives I suspect Curt at atarimuseum will be interested in these. From elf at ucsd.edu Tue Jun 14 21:49:51 2005 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:49:51 -0700 Subject: Procedure For Connecting To The 'net Circa 1978 Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050614194658.022983d0@popmail.ucsd.edu> Bill Sudbrink wrote: ... ... > 8) Once the @ character is echoed, press enter. > You should get an error message (I no longer > remember the text). Now type "@O 77". > This instructs the TIP to connect you to the > MIT-DM (Massachusetts Institute of Technology, > Dynamic Modeling) computer. Nitpick: IIRC, I believe MIT-DM was "@O 70". I also connected to 3 other MIT machines back in the day: MIT-ML was #198 MIT-AI was #134 MIT-MC was #236 I connected up through the RAND-TIP, which was limited to 300 baud. There was also the USC-TIP, which supported 1200 baud, but my bank account couldn't support a 1200 baud modem at the time. All 4 of these machines were running ITS on PDP-10s or an SDS/XDS Sigma 7 I believe. "Tourists" (guests) were given free accounts. > 11) I no longer remember how to start up Zork or > some of the other programs... anyone feel free to > provide details I'm missing. I think it was as simple as running the command :ZORK ...but it has been so long since I've muddled around with ITS, DDT, etc. Speaking of muddle, I still have my MDL programming manuals around here (of which ZORK was composed in, originally.) Eric F. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 14 22:06:41 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:06:41 -0400 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s Message-ID: <0II30045FVADRISD@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: PDP-8s and -10s > From: William Donzelli > Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:41:02 -0400 (EDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Speaking of PDP-8s, and now PDP-10s - a thought that passed my mind: > >Is there a good reason why DEC did not use the PDP-8 architecture in the >PDP-10, for proper channel controllers? Cheap, versatile, sixbit, and when >the KA10 came out, already designed. I would have thought it to be an >obvious "drop-in" solution. > >Any thoughts? > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org The BOCES/LYRICS machine was a 10/8 combo with the 8I handling the terminal concentrator for the 10. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 14 22:11:30 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:11:30 -0400 Subject: MITS8800 CPU Board/multibus Message-ID: <0II300GEWVIEBOOR@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: MITS8800 CPU Board > From: Tom Jennings > Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:43:28 -0700 (PDT) > To: > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: > >>> Again, thanks for your help. This is my first foray into S100 stuff, >>> and makes a nice change from Multibus. > >I'd swap S100 for Multibuss any day! CP/M-80 on Multibuss is easy >and reliable! > >I wish I had kept my old multibuss box. I always imagine getting >another one, just some 6-slot job with Intel cards and some DSDD >floppy controller. Nice and boring! :-) I have two hurikon multibus Z80 system on a card and two 4slot backplanes plus an assortment of random boards including a BP2190 (48k ram local dma plus floppy controller). That satisfies my multibus cravings. The PS to run it all is linear and huge. I may replace it with a AT PC supply. Allison From mcesari at comcast.net Tue Jun 14 22:12:02 2005 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:12:02 -0600 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 14, 2005, at 6:41 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Speaking of PDP-8s, and now PDP-10s - a thought that passed my mind: > > Is there a good reason why DEC did not use the PDP-8 architecture > in the > PDP-10, for proper channel controllers? Cheap, versatile, sixbit, > and when > the KA10 came out, already designed. I would have thought it to be an > obvious "drop-in" solution. > > Any thoughts? > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > > They used PDP-8's for various comm. I/O (sync and async) and unit record devices (printers, paper tape punches & readers, and card readers). These were called DC71, DC72, or DN92. Later, PDP-11/40's (and 11/34's ?) were used. There is some documentation on the TOPS-10 v7.03 CUST tape. Mike From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 14 22:30:58 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8s and -10s In-Reply-To: <20050615012938.65472.qmail@web81309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > DEC believed that DMA ("data break") was a more > cost-effective solution than IBM-style intelligent > channels, going all the way back to the PDP-1 -- at > least that is the impression that I got from the > retrospective papers in "Computer Engineering: A DEC > View of Hardware Systems Design". And DEC wondered why IBM (and just about every one elses) mainframes blew them away in the I/O department. It seems to me that they could have made the -10 line real mainframes (no, IBM and the BUNCH did not consider the -10 line real) with just a little effort and not much money. Think of it - the addition of say four -8 powered channels to -10 would have cost maybe a couple thousand dollars (not much, considering the sticker price of a -10), but would have put it in the same league as everyone else. I probably need to read that book again (it has been years). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 22:32:09 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:32:09 -0500 Subject: Procedure For Connecting To The 'net Circa 1978 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050614194658.022983d0@popmail.ucsd.edu> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050614194658.022983d0@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: On 6/14/05, Eric F. wrote: > I think it was as simple as running the command > > :ZORK I can't speak to ITS, but that's what I use on TOPS-20 (I know... world of difference) > Speaking of muddle, I still have my MDL programming manuals around here (of > which ZORK was composed in, originally.) I never went to MIT, but I _did_ order the MDL manuals from the MIT Press bookstore over 10 years ago in order to learn MDL to understand Zork in the original idiom. Prior to getting the books, the only references I could find were (now famous) articles in a variety of journals and magazines. Great stuff. -ethan From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Jun 14 22:45:50 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 22:45:50 -0500 Subject: WangEmu 2.0 released Message-ID: <42AFA46E.9080703@pacbell.net> After two years of on and off doinking, I've finally released version 2.0 of my Wang 2200 emulator. There are a ton of changes, but the most significant ones are emulation of the 2200VP CPU (2nd generation CPU with microcode in RAM), emulation for printers, option for using the original character set, 2.5x faster CPU emulation, an OSX native version, and myriad bug fixes/improvements. Binaries and source are available from the emulation page. The 2200 web site: http://www.thebattles.net/wang/wang.html The emulation subpage: http://www.thebattles.net/wang/emu.html The release notes: http://www.thebattles.net/wang/emu/relnotes.txt From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 14 22:50:02 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:50:02 -0700 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s Message-ID: <42AFA56A.7040206@bitsavers.org> It seems to me that they could have made the -10 line real mainframes (no, IBM and the BUNCH did not consider the -10 line real) with just a little effort and not much money. -- DEC through the 'golden age' didn't go after that market. They tried to target scientific rather than corporate computing. If you look at the sales numbers of their 36-bit systems, they were tiny compared to Univac, Burroughs, and IBM. The engineering and field support costs required to compete with the big iron companies to the level that big-iron buyers demand would have consumed all of DEC's resources at that time (through the mid-70s). One of the things that isn't talked about much is how the PDP-6 just about killed DEC because of all of the resources it consumed to get it out the door. They did eventually abandon their 'fan base' to go after the corporate market, and that was the beginning of DEC's downfall. From blairrya at msu.edu Tue Jun 14 23:15:12 2005 From: blairrya at msu.edu (Ryan Blair) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:15:12 -0400 Subject: FS/FT: Two Xerox 6085 computers Message-ID: <20050615001512.47a205ae@arrakis> Due to the size of these and lack of interest on my part, I have two Xerox 6085 computers and some associated bits in need of a new home. http://tinyurl.com/ccm3j has some pictures of this stuff Since these are fairly heavy, they will be pickup only from 48821 (near Lansing, Michigan). Best offer or trade. Most interesting trades to me right now would be IA64 or PPC gear, but I'm open to other things. A fair bit more detailed description of what I have follows. CPUs: Xerox 6085 Hard drive is labelled as "XPIW 2.0" Cards: P/N 140K05980: LPO (printer port) >--- a half-height card 140K05560: IOP (ethernet, floppy, keyboard, serial comm, serial printer) 140K04160: MBP (bus extender port) 140K01000: MEB (no ports on this card, extra memory perhaps?) 140K00460: DCM (display port) Xerox 6085 Hard drive labelled as "Viewpoint 2.0" Cards: P/N 140K05550: PCE (PC emulator card?) \____ these are half-height 140K05980: LPO (printer port) / cards that share a slot 140K24340: IOP-2 (ethernet, floppy, keyboard, comm, printer) 140K24590: MBP-2 (no ports on this card) 140K24580: DCM-2 (display port) Other hardware: 2 Xerox mouse pads 2 mice 1 keyboard 2 floppy enclosures (one with a drive in it, one with just air) 1 extra hard drive tray (from browsing the docs, it looks like you need an ST412/ST506 if you want to replace a drive) These computers do not come with monitors. I do not know if it is possible to easily cook something up to connect standard monitors to them. Documentation: 1 Training and Reference: Xerox Viewpoint 2 packets of loose documentation 1 MS-DOS User's Guide for the 6085 2 Workstation Equipment and Installation 1 Xerox Viewpoint 1.1 GW BASIC by Microsoft 1 Reference: Document Editor Media: VP font disks (around 20 disks) VP Spellchecker 1.1 VP Terminal Emulation of DEC VT100 1.0 VP NetCom 1.1.2 common software VP NetCom 1.1 network install scripts VP PC Emulation 1.1.7 6085 Xerox Viewpoint 1.1.7 (Basic Workstation #1) Xerox PC Emulation Utilities VP 1.1.7 Xerox MS DOS 3.10 Xerox GW Basic 3.10 VP Document Editor 1.1.2 (disks 1-3) VP Local Laser Printing 1.1 VP File Conversion of ASCII documents 1.1 VP File Conversion of Wordstar Documents 1.1 6085 VP Long Document Options VP File Conversion of 860 Documents 1.1 VP Data-Driven Graphics (Bar, Pie, Line) 1.1 VP Local Draft Printing 1.0.1 VP RemoteCom 1.1.2 (disks 1 and 2) -Ryan From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jun 14 23:23:49 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:23:49 -0400 Subject: 976x heads In-Reply-To: <42AF8BF7.2020604@bitsavers.org> References: <42AF8BF7.2020604@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42AFAD55.90609@atarimuseum.com> Hi Al, Can you fill me in? Are these yours or someone elses who is selling them? 9766 spares are always a welcome sight. Curt Al Kossow wrote: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/astro-ii/P6140259.jpg > > are heads for CDC 976x drives > > I suspect Curt at atarimuseum will be interested in these. > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.1 - Release Date: 6/13/2005 From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Jun 14 23:26:38 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 06:26:38 +0200 Subject: Norsk Data Nord-100 haul! Message-ID: <1118809598.31804.11.camel@fortran> A few days I was picking up an IMSAI with Nico de Jong who was in Norway, to send it with him to Fred van Kempen. So, we drive to Minnesund, and stop by to withdraw money in Eidsvoll. While driving the ATM, I spot a bin behind a building while driving. He parks halfway and we go each way. While he's busy not finding the ATM, I check out the bin and to my utter utter shock, instead of the x86 junk which constitutes the absolute majority I find a ND-110/CX Compact!! It's... ...it's upside down. OK, just tip it over. Of course, it's on the bottom, so I remove ~8 screens, and pull the bin apart. Roll the Nord into the car with nontrivial effort, and bring some of the terminals. (OK, all but one ;) Get it home, get weird looks and remarks, some of them deserved, get the machine in. Shaking, I plug in the power cord. And attempt to power up. After gaining a basic understanding of the workings of the controls, I twist the key. Workage! No smoke or anything. hook up the console. 17.42.24 16 MAY 1999 SINTRAN III - VSX/500 K ENTER It actually boots! Given the treatment it was given to get it home, not to mention the treatment that made it end up upside down in a dumpster, the (reportedly extremely fragile) SCSI disks surviving is no less than a miracle. OK, so ISTR the user being SYSTEM. PASSWORD: Crap. Even though I'm on the console... no go. OK, call a friend who used to work at Norsk Data and now has a significant stock of spares (I might get to hit him up for an ethernet card! And maybe even a ND-5850 CPU!!). He comes around later that day with some special floppies only ND employees had, and reveals the password: "MARS". I can only speculate that this was a part of a monthly password change routine ("Mars" is Norwegian for March) :) The CPU has been changed with a Nord-120/CX (without telling ND, their docs still say it's an 110). I believe the CX means Commercial eXtensions, an extra set of instructions like the PDP-11's CIS. And I'm in! And about 10 minutes later, the terminal dies!!! ARGH!! I'm starting a separate thread about that. Also, I got an Apollo 400. I don't know much about these. Might put it up for trade. OK, so the porn is at http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~toresbe/nd (That page is under active construction!). Also images of Fred van Kempen's IMSAI with me posing with the trophy at http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~toresbe/imsai :) From medavidson at mac.com Tue Jun 14 12:03:54 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:03:54 -0700 Subject: PDF Creation on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <200506132142.OAA17236@floodgap.com> References: <200506132142.OAA17236@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Jun 13, 2005, at 2:42 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> mac osx can create pdfs all by itself - just save a pic or text or >> html >> etc file as pdf - hope this helps - billp >> > > To add to this, it is typically under the Print menu. To be more specific: just about any Cocoa-based application can produce a PDF. When you ask the application to "Print", one of the options on the Printer dialog is "PDF", which will allow you to produce a PDF automatically. Mark From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 15 01:39:37 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 01:39:37 -0500 Subject: Dodgy IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: <42AEEFF3.1010906@srv.net> References: <42AEEFF3.1010906@srv.net> Message-ID: <42AFCD29.3020906@mdrconsult.com> Kevin Handy wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> That's what I'm thinking, but then maybe not. I've tried cleaning both >> >> the power connector and the switch several times with contact cleaner, >> but >> that had no effect. I'm not ruling it out yet, but because of the way >> this thing powers on sometimes and not others, I'm suspecting a bad >> capacitor or something(?) >> >> > I have a e-machine PC with a flakey power supply somewhat > like that. It's a small, underpowered unit that will sometimes > power up all the fans when you push the button, but not always. > Doesn't ever bring up the boot screen. Plug in a known good > power supply, and everything works (but it doesn't fit the case). If I looked through my records, I bet I could name the model. A tiny box with hard disk, floppy drive, oversized CPU fan, case fan, CD reader, and a *90W* PSU? Some retailer here sold a crapload of those. I put a bunch of them, the ones that didn't fry the motherboard, into mini-towers with real power supplies. In any other industry, those particular eMachines would have been a recall item. Doc From jhoger at pobox.com Wed Jun 15 02:03:02 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:03:02 -0700 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <200506141557.j5EFv8X6022448@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1118818982.9735.588.camel@aragorn> On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 13:29 -0500, Ronald Wayne wrote: > Bah, don't let that serve as an excuse. All three of those processors > have been added to the list. On the Endurance thing, how would you score connecting to a modern machine via a vintage computer running a terminal program? In a similar vein, as for the connecting to the Internet, I guess you might want to clarify whether the vintage machine itself needs to implement the protocol in question. -- John. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Jun 15 03:15:43 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:15:43 +0100 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:23:16 CDT." <42AF3CB4.8070101@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <200506150815.JAA14518@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tim Riker said: > > But existing code can be used, yes? So one could load up a 486 with a > Linux distro including POP3 IMAP SMTP NNTP FTP IRC HTTP Gopher apps, and > be done. Much easier than trying to get a tcp stack working on some of > the others. That's too easy, I ran Linux on a 486 for years. I also ran KA9Q tcp/ip over packet radio on a 386 with MSDOS for quite a while (and I think I've still got the disks somewhere), does that count as "online"? -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Jun 15 03:27:24 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:27:24 +0100 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 15 Jun 2005 00:26:20 BST." Message-ID: <200506150827.JAA14533@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: [RE: Mullard amps] > Yes, I do have the appropriate Mullard books. Yeah, me too...I built a 5-10 and pre-amp. It was used with, among other things, my pulse-counting fm tuner, about 10 or so EF91s :-) Ah the good old days of mono... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 15 04:24:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 02:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Ultrix 32 ver 3.2 manuals available Message-ID: I know a guy who might have a set of DEC Ultrix 32 ver 3.2 manuals available. He's retrieving them from a client of his in Long Island, New York. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll put you in touch with him. They won't be free, but then I don't think they will be pricey either. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From GOOI at oce.nl Wed Jun 15 04:45:00 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:45:00 +0200 Subject: DEC Ultrix 32 ver 3.2 manuals available Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D21@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Sellam, do you happen to know how many manuals DEC Ultrix 32 is? I might be interested if it is not too many as shipping costs would otherwise be killing me. And is he willing to put the effort in shipping outside the US? - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer > Festival > Sent: woensdag 15 juni 2005 11:25 > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: DEC Ultrix 32 ver 3.2 manuals available > > > > I know a guy who might have a set of DEC Ultrix 32 ver 3.2 manuals > available. He's retrieving them from a client of his in Long > Island, New York. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll > put you in touch with him. They won't be free, but then I don't > think they will be pricey either. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade > Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 15 06:05:57 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:05:57 -0400 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s Message-ID: <0II4007T8HH1BBF3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8s and -10s > From: Al Kossow > Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:50:02 -0700 > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > >It seems to me that they could have made >the -10 line real mainframes (no, IBM and the BUNCH did not consider the >-10 line real) with just a little effort and not much money. > >-- > >DEC through the 'golden age' didn't go after that market. They tried to >target scientific rather than corporate computing. One of the oddities is that the 36bit machines the 10s/20s were well known for their timesharing with huge nubers of users. >One of the things that isn't talked about much is how the PDP-6 just about >killed DEC because of all of the resources it consumed to get it out the door. The PDP-6 was the VAX-9000 of the 60s. > >They did eventually abandon their 'fan base' to go after the corporate >market, and that was the beginning of DEC's downfall. It was successful for the 80s but the growing PC price performance numbers were hurting the backroom mainframe style systems. The breakpoint was when 486 powered system with basic decent graphics (640x480x8) hit the streets with Win3.11. We had the scientific workstation wars of the late 80s this would be the business workstation war. Several PCs for 2500$ each or less was cheaper than a microvax of any flavor. Allison From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 15 06:25:31 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:25:31 -0400 Subject: CP/M serial disk image transfer. Message-ID: <20050615112530.VUVE16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Hi Dave Hi Dwight, > I have used the serial port to transfer information >but once I have the basic core working, I just transfer >files. If it is a binary file, I've used Intel Hex >format and DDT to save to a binary. I agree that it is not difficult to transfer individual files to and from CP/M if you are familier with the tools ... in this particular case, I need to archive and transfer 50+ complete disks ... This is from a rather obscure system that was used in a Canadian university, and a museum in Toronto wants exact copies of the disks. This program provides that, and will be MUCH less work for them to recreate the disks (one command/disk instead of multiple commands to transfer dozens of individual files per disk). > It would be interesting to compile a web page with all >the different tricks used to handle the various image >and file transfer problems of these older systems. Things >like how to connect a 8 inch disk or a little source >code that shows how to do console to disk transfers using >the CP/M bios. One could include things like my H8/H89 >image transfer program and my Olivetti M20 disk image >building code. I have code from another fellow to move >Polymorphic disk images from a Poly 881x to a PC with >xmodem( windows supports ). I've got a "Disk/Software images" section on my site where I have begun to put all of my tools for backing up and restoring diskettes. This includes 4-5 tools that I have created for various systems, as well as a number of other tools that I have used. I also have quite a few simulators available which sometimes can really help with building that first system disk. I think it is an excellent idea to collect all of these tools together into a single resource. If you have material to contribute, please forward it to me. Or if you (or anyone else) would like to put together a site more specifically oriented to transfer/archive techniques, please feel free to use the material from my site. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 15 07:55:56 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 05:55:56 -0700 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s Message-ID: >>DEC through the 'golden age' didn't go after that market. They tried to >>target scientific rather than corporate computing. > >One of the oddities is that the 36bit machines the 10s/20s were well >known for their timesharing with huge nubers of users. And they did put effort into front-end terminal concentrators on the later models of those systems. TOPS-10 had a significant influence on the user interfaces of some of DEC's smaller operating systems (RT-11 and RSTS for example), as well as CP/M. Google for discussions on alt.sys.pdp10 for why this wasn't true for RSX and VMS. I suspect that the driving force for tools (esp in TOPS-10) inside DEC came about because much of the software development inside of DEC for other CPU families until they converted to VAXen was done using cross-development tools on their internal timesharing systems (MACY11, etc.) and because 10's were THE machines to have in universities (MIT, CMU, etc, etc) if you wanted something that had a lot of good tools for a moderate amount of money. From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Jun 15 08:40:53 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:40:53 -0400 Subject: Does anyone have an Altos CPM/MPM machine available? References: Message-ID: <001101c571af$da758ec0$0100a8c0@screamer> I'm going to try to get my old Altos 5-15D working. Currently its having a problem during power-on self test, drive B does not seem to be seeking to track 00. The machine will not boot from A: without thinking the B: drive is happy. The drives are CDC 720K 5.25 inch, full height drives. I'm looking for spare drives, a parts machine, or a working Altos. From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Tue Jun 14 11:01:27 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:01:27 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0EFF7E3F@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I wasn't aware of this. Are you interested in the 11/23 box if they are a suitable revision? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 10:47 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale >>>>> "Julian" == Julian Wolfe <(FireflyST)" > writes: Julian> Two DEQNA Ethernet controllers What ECO level? DEC went all the way to L on the DEQNA before finally giving up on it. The late ones work fairly well; early ones are quite evil. (DELQA is always preferable, though...) paul From jim.beacon at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 14 17:01:04 2005 From: jim.beacon at ntlworld.com (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:01:04 +0100 Subject: Paging Jules Richardson Message-ID: <00d801c5712c$907ae500$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Apologies to everyone else........ Jules, I've sent you a couple of messages of list, but received no replies - are you getting them, or does your ISP bounce my emails? Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From richard.smith at mewgull.com Wed Jun 15 01:04:23 2005 From: richard.smith at mewgull.com (Richard Smith) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:04:23 +0100 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050611081318.0217ceb8@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050615070141.01c0ce60@localhost> At 00:26 15/06/2005, you wrote: > > > > At 00:29 04/06/2005, you wrote: > > > > >They're a bit like the good old Q-max cutters (now that is showing my age > > >[1]). > > > > > >[1] The first 3 I ever bought, over 25 years ago, were 5/8", 3/4" and > > >1+1/8". Why? > > > > > >-tony > > > > You were building a Mullard 5/10 valve (tube) amp! > >Close, but no cigar :-) > >The 5-10 (5 valves 10 watts) used an EF86, ECC83, 2 off EL84 and an EZ81. >All are on B9A bases, so I'd only have needed the 3/4" punch. I can't >remember the hole size for the Bulgin plugs used for the mains and >speaker connections, but I think it was smaller than 1+1/8". > >Now, had you said the 5-20 (line up : EF86, ECC83, 2 off EL34, GZ32), >then I would have needed the 3/4" and 1+1/8". And had I also been >building the companion FM tuner, I would have needed the 5/8" (for the >EB91 detector double diode, I think the B8A 'rimlock' sockets for the >EF41s would go in a 3/4" hole). > >Yes, I do have the appropriate Mullard books. And the Williamson >reprints. And the GEC book on audio amplifiers (which starts with the >Williamson and goes on to a monster with a rated 1.1kW audio output power). So close, but a typo loses the point! It was the 3/4 and 1-1/8 that threw me - I was building a 5/20 variant one time and needed those cutters. I reckon the 5/8 was for a fuseholder. I've transcribed the Mullard book to CD. Richard From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jun 15 10:06:13 2005 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:06:13 +0100 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s In-Reply-To: <0II4007T8HH1BBF3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <000201c571bb$c57a5940$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > One of the oddities is that the 36bit machines the 10s/20s were well > known for their timesharing with huge nubers of users. Also interesting to note that the /other/ great timesharing machines of the pre-Unix* era were also 36-bit: the GE/Honeywell/Bull 600/6000/Level 66/68 running G(e)COS or Multics. ... but then the 32-bit machine came along well after timesharing had become established and it was some time before the '360 family had a decent ability in this field - and by the VAX era the tendancy was to have more systems rather than more users/system. * I wonder what is the largest number of concurrent "tty" users that is reliably reported as having been run on a Unix system. I know that we replaced one GCOS Honeywell dual-processor 66/60 with 3 Unix Gould 6000s to manage about the same number of users (tho' they were increasing their processing demands**) ... but the _purchase_ cost of the Goulds was less than 3 years _maintenance_ for the Honeywell. The joke in those days about an editor that we refused to make available was "Eight Megabytes And Continually Swapping" - nowadays who notices 8 megabytes :-) [unless they're programming PICs!] Andy From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jun 15 10:07:59 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:07:59 +0200 Subject: PDP11/23 - prompt? Message-ID: <42B0444F.3010600@hachti.de> Hi, I am just getting a PDP11/23plus. The CPU is already at home and I have powered the machine up. Makes noise, turns fans, etc. If I start the machine (running indicator lit) it gives me a dollar sign ('$') prompt which seems to accept two character until it starts a new line. Here a few (perhaps totally stupid - but I've never used such a toy before) questions: What's that? What can I do from there? Is it normal? My machine lacks harddisk and floppy (at the moment, they have not arrived yet). The monitor program (@-Prompt) seems to work correctly. Regards, Philipp :-) From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Jun 15 10:18:02 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:18:02 -0700 Subject: PDP11/23 - prompt? In-Reply-To: <42B0444F.3010600@hachti.de> References: <42B0444F.3010600@hachti.de> Message-ID: At 5:07 PM +0200 6/15/05, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >Hi, > >I am just getting a PDP11/23plus. The CPU is already at home and I >have powered the machine up. Makes noise, turns fans, etc. If I >start the machine (running indicator lit) it gives me a dollar sign >('$') prompt >which seems to accept two character until it starts a new line. > >Here a few (perhaps totally stupid - but I've never used such a toy >before) questions: > >What's that? >What can I do from there? >Is it normal? Sounds like the bootstrap of a device controller, not the KDF boot ROMs. You can probably type type characters for controller name and another for device number, e.g., DU0. You need to carefully inventory your boards and determine what you have. Then look around (bitsavers, e.g.) for appropriate documentation. John From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 15 10:24:00 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:24:00 -0400 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s References: Message-ID: <17072.18448.522503.202510@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: William> Speaking of PDP-8s, and now PDP-10s - a thought that passed William> my mind: Is there a good reason why DEC did not use the William> PDP-8 architecture in the PDP-10, for proper channel William> controllers? Cheap, versatile, sixbit, and when the KA10 William> came out, already designed. I would have thought it to be an William> obvious "drop-in" solution. You mean, analogous to CDC's PPUs? One guess: that wasn't an option on the PDP-6, and the 10 is the compatible successor to the 6. paul From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Jun 15 10:24:40 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:24:40 +0200 (MEST) Subject: PDP11/23 - prompt? In-Reply-To: <42B0444F.3010600@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I am just getting a PDP11/23plus. The CPU is already at home and I have > powered the machine up. Makes noise, turns fans, etc. If I start the Congrats! Noise is good! > machine (running indicator lit) it gives me a dollar sign ('$') prompt > which seems to accept two character until it starts a new line. Thats the bootstrap ROM ("ROM BIOS") talking to you. It wants you to tell it from what device to boot. From memory: DL RL01/02 disks DK RK05 disks HK RK06/07 (perhaps HM) DX RX01/02 diskettes Newer ones probably also support DU (MSCP), network and various tape controllers (TM, TS, MU) as boot devices. Beware- afaik, only the FIRST UNIT (unit 0) is supported. > Here a few (perhaps totally stupid - but I've never used such a toy > before) questions: > > What's that? See above. Life! :P > What can I do from there? Yes. > Is it normal? Very. > My machine lacks harddisk and floppy (at the moment, they have not > arrived yet). The monitor program (@-Prompt) seems to work correctly. Once you have the disk stuff connected, try one of the above. --f From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 15 10:36:17 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:36:17 -0400 Subject: What is a DEC VT-61/T ? References: <42AF8816.1000509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <17072.19185.986395.538389@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow writes: Al> From memory, they are used with DEC's typesetting system (DECset) Al> They were commonly used by newspapers. It's been too long, but I think DECset was a VMS-based typesetting system (it may have been renamed and/or canceled before shipping). That probably didn't use the VT61, only the VT71 -- which is a micro-PDP11 based editing terminal with a substantial chunk of local memory. (You would send it the whole article, edit locally, and send it back tot he host.) The VT61/t was the "low cost" terminal used with Typeset-11 -- which is what I worked on in my first job at DEC, 1978-1980. (Possibly it was also used with Typeset-8; I don't know that product.) It supports local editing as well as forms entry, but only on 24 lines at a time. The primary use for it was for classified ad entry; it was also used for other editing applications when the volume of text wasn't too large. So at the news side of a newspaper, the editors would certainly have VT71s but the reporters (who have far less volume to handle) might be stuck with VT61/t's if the newspaper was trying to save money. I don't know any details on the communication protocol between terminal and host. It's some sort of error checking protocol, perhaps inspired by primitive stuff like Bisync, but I never worked on that part of the system. It's definitely block oriented -- you'd type text to fill in the screen, and hit a transmit key to send all that to the host. (In the case of forms entry, the form labels of course would not be sent.) There's also a VT61 without the /t; probably something similar but not customized for typesetting applications. And the VT62, again probably similar, designed for the very short-lived TRAX-11 operating system. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 15 10:42:20 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:42:20 -0400 Subject: What is a DEC VT-61/T ? References: <42AF8816.1000509@bitsavers.org> <42AF88D1.4000109@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <17072.19548.845180.272201@gargle.gargle.HOWL> By the way, if you open up a VT61 you will find a truly mindboggling number of PC boards. From old memory, I think it's at least 10 of them, crammed into every avaiable corner of a standard VT52 enclosure. One thing that's strange about them is some, maybe all, are single-layer boards completely infested with jumper wires on the top side. Why they didn't use double-sided boards I never understood. (And they are phenolic -- Radio Shack type boards -- not FR4 epoxy.) By the way, the email from Jerry Leichter is mistaken in that the TRAX terminal was the VT62, not the VT61. I don't know what if anything the plain VT61 was used for. paul From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jun 15 11:07:34 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:07:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8s and -10s In-Reply-To: <17072.18448.522503.202510@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > You mean, analogous to CDC's PPUs? One guess: that wasn't an option > on the PDP-6, and the 10 is the compatible successor to the 6. Yes, good example. I do not think adding some sort of -8 powered channel stuff to the KA would have disrupted things much at all - there just was not a huge number of PDP-6 installations to disrupt. Likewise, they could have included backwards compatibility. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 15 11:07:35 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:07:35 -0400 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s References: Message-ID: <17072.21063.778394.379651@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow writes: Al> I suspect that the driving force for tools (esp in TOPS-10) Al> inside DEC came about because much of the software development Al> inside of DEC for other CPU families until they converted to Al> VAXen was done using cross-development tools on their internal Al> timesharing systems (MACY11, etc.) ... Don't know about the others, though I have my guesses about RSX -- but in the case of RSTS at least, software development was "native" not later than 1975 or so (RSTS/E V5B). And RT11 development probably was hosted on RSTS at some point. (So was OS-8 support, on an 11/60, since it could run PDP-8 code very fast thanks to the WCS option.) Early on certainly TOPS-10s were used; an old DEC document (for kernel ODT for RSTS V4) has a passing reference to a DEC-10 based PDP11 emulator called "MIMIC". paul From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 15 11:26:45 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:26:45 -0700 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s Message-ID: <9d564962b376fceb731cd96b904a0493@bitsavers.org> Al> I suspect that the driving force for tools (esp in TOPS-10) Al> inside DEC came about because much of the software development Al> inside of DEC for other CPU families until they converted to Al> VAXen was done using cross-development tools on their internal Al> timesharing systems (MACY11, etc.) ... Don't know about the others, though I have my guesses about RSX -- but in the case of RSTS at least, software development was "native" not later than 1975 or so (RSTS/E V5B). == The time frame I was really thinking about was '65 -> early 70's And RT11 development probably was hosted on RSTS at some point. (So was OS-8 support, on an 11/60, since it could run PDP-8 code very fast thanks to the WCS option.) == I'm sure Megan knows all the gory details of that. This is also the first I had heard that Richie's PDP8 microcode was actually used for product development. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 15 11:31:27 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dodgy IBM PC Convertible power supply Message-ID: <200506151631.JAA10977@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > ---snip--- >The power connector (barrel type) had a bit of oxidation on the contacts >which I tried to clean and scrape away. I got a fair amount off of it. I >never thought to check the voltage coming out on the other end of >connector, but I'll do that tonight. > ---snip--- Hi Try putting a little silicon grease on the connectors and plug/unplug it several times. ( note: not heat sink grease ). Dwight From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 15 11:40:19 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:40:19 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0EFF7E3F@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <17072.23027.390459.45707@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Julian" == Julian Wolfe writes: Julian> I wasn't aware of this. Are you interested in the 11/23 box Julian> if they are a suitable revision? Sorry, I should have been clearer. No, I'm not -- my point was that when you're posting information about the hardware, DEQNA rev is a pretty significant piece of data. (That's usual, I think -- typically things weren't so badly broken earlier on, and it certainly was quite rare for there to be anywhere near that many revisions. But the DEQNA designer was an unusual character, to put it very politely.) paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 15 12:07:14 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:07:14 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale Message-ID: <0II4001CMY72EXPA@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale > From: Paul Koning > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:40:19 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>>>>> "Julian" == Julian Wolfe writes: > > Julian> I wasn't aware of this. Are you interested in the 11/23 box > Julian> if they are a suitable revision? > >Sorry, I should have been clearer. No, I'm not -- my point was that >when you're posting information about the hardware, DEQNA rev is a >pretty significant piece of data. (That's usual, I think -- typically >things weren't so badly broken earlier on, and it certainly was quite >rare for there to be anywhere near that many revisions. But the DEQNA >designer was an unusual character, to put it very politely.) > > paul Actually depending on OS and general usage the critical factor for the DEQNA was not rev but, is it functional at all? Most of the DEQNAs I've touched and used either worked or were dead, rev was a minor issue save for certain OS support issues. One of the REV issues was that the more reworked versions tended to have more failures (IE plain old dead) resulting from greater amounts of handeling and use/abuse. For Q-bus 11s the DEQNA was an acceptable device. DELQAs while nicer were scarcer. Allison From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jun 15 12:25:17 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:25:17 +0200 Subject: PDP11/23 - prompt? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B0647D.5060901@hachti.de> Hi, > Congrats! Noise is good! I think so :-) > >> machine (running indicator lit) it gives me a dollar sign ('$') >> prompt which seems to accept two character until it starts a new >> line. > > Thats the bootstrap ROM ("ROM BIOS") talking to you. It wants you to > tell it from what device to boot. From memory: > > DL RL01/02 disks DK RK05 disks HK RK06/07 (perhaps HM) DX RX01/02 > diskettes Aha. But why is there no memory test etc? My documentation tells me about memory test messages etc. and a start prompt. Are there several bootstrap loaders around? If yes, does anyone have a better one? > >> Is it normal? > > Very. Fine. > Once you have the disk stuff connected, try one of the above. I'll do that at once when I have got the rest of the system. > > Sounds like the bootstrap of a device controller, not the KDF boot > ROMs. You can probably type type characters for controller name and > another for device number, e.g., DU0. What to do to get that kdf thing working? How will I know? On my CPU board are two eproms with green labels and nothing written on them. The docum If it is possible that I don't have the original bootstrap - can anyone send it to me via email? > You need to carefully inventory your boards and determine what you > have. I have: - CPU (M8189) - RAM (M8067), 128k*18? - RAM (8059), same size? - Floppy controller M8029 - Emulex SC02/C RK06/07 compatible SMD disk controller (for my Ampex hard drive) - 2 * M8043 (4 serial ports) - 1 unknown Plessey interface card, P/No. 701775 (What's that ?) Thanks for all further hints! Regards, Philipp :-) From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Jun 15 12:46:20 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:46:20 -0400 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s References: Message-ID: <003701c571d2$24eb5300$0100a8c0@screamer> Speaking of the CDC and its PPU's... Does anyone have software to use on the 6600 emulator? Has anyone put one of these machines onto VLSI? ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 12:07 PM Subject: Re: PDP-8s and -10s >> You mean, analogous to CDC's PPUs? One guess: that wasn't an option >> on the PDP-6, and the 10 is the compatible successor to the 6. > > Yes, good example. > > I do not think adding some sort of -8 powered channel stuff to the KA > would have disrupted things much at all - there just was not a huge number > of PDP-6 installations to disrupt. Likewise, they could have included > backwards compatibility. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > > > > From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Jun 15 12:54:00 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:54:00 -0700 Subject: PDP11/23 - prompt? In-Reply-To: <42B0647D.5060901@hachti.de> References: <42B0647D.5060901@hachti.de> Message-ID: At 7:25 PM +0200 6/15/05, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >Aha. But why is there no memory test etc? My documentation tells me >about memory test messages etc. and a start prompt. Are there >several bootstrap loaders around? The normal 23+ boot ROMs do a memory test. This boot sequence can be disabled via DIP switches on the board. See below. >- CPU (M8189) >- RAM (M8067), 128k*18? >- RAM (8059), same size? >- Floppy controller M8029 >- Emulex SC02/C RK06/07 compatible SMD disk controller (for my Ampex >hard drive) >- 2 * M8043 (4 serial ports) >- 1 unknown Plessey interface card, P/No. 701775 (What's that ?) The SC02 can take optional boot PROMs. Sounds like you have those installed and enabled. If you haven't done so already, grab the manual from bitsavers, also grab the 23+ manuals. You will see that the $ prompt is from the Emulex board (see Section 6). There's nothing wrong with that boot, if you want to use it. Alternatively, you could disable that boot and enable the boot on the M8189 board. One boot or the other, not both. John From drb at msu.edu Wed Jun 15 12:58:11 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:58:11 -0400 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s Message-ID: <200506151758.j5FHwBnT006445@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Speaking of the CDC and its PPU's... > > Does anyone have software to use on the 6600 emulator? > Has anyone put one of these machines onto VLSI? You might be interested in the goings-on at: http://www.60bits.net/ De From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 15 13:03:14 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:03:14 -0500 Subject: PDP system available across the pond :) Message-ID: <009801c571d4$80985700$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I received an email about a PDP system being available. This system MAY be spoken for tentatively, but because the guy is in a hurry I wanted to get the word out in case the current candidate doesn't want it.... System description: ------------------ The PDP-11/73 is 19" rack mounted (rack not included). It consists of the main cabinet (CPU, RAM, I/O, RM02 100 MB disk), expansion unit with two 300 MB Disk (at least one of them OK) and another unit with a 1/2" tape drive. RAM: 512 kb (not quite sure about it, can be less), I/O: Ethernet, 4 x rs-232, real-time clock card, GPIB controller(NI), ADC (NI), parallel port, CAMAC interface. It was running RSX-11M 4.2 and DECnet (don't remember version). We have all manuals (RSX+DECnet) and tapes with the OS software. Please let me know if there is anybody interested a.s.a.p. - I can't store the system much longer. -------------------- And... the system is located in Uppsala, Sweden. While the subject of price hasn't been broached, I am under the impression it's available for the carting away, but there may be a small fee. If anyone is interested, drop me a line and if the primary candidate doesn't want it, I'll draw numbers out of a hat :) This system must be picked up immediately! Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 15 13:08:41 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:08:41 -0500 Subject: OT sortof (HUMOR) Message-ID: <00a401c571d5$4332c2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone passed this on to me a while back, I'm not sure if I posted it here or not yet. If I did, I apologize for the second post. When I read this, I kept thinking of all the great classiccmp list debates and just got a few good chuckles: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? Answer: 1,331: 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we are all use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mail list. 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversey. 19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. 47 to say this is just what alt.physics.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here. 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Jun 15 13:09:17 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:09:17 +0200 (MEST) Subject: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale In-Reply-To: <0II4001CMY72EXPA@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: > Actually depending on OS and general usage the critical factor for > the DEQNA was not rev but, is it functional at all? Most of the > DEQNAs I've touched and used either worked or were dead, rev was a > minor issue save for certain OS support issues. I have about 20, and they're all OK. Screwy, but OK. > One of the REV > issues was that the more reworked versions tended to have more > failures (IE plain old dead) resulting from greater amounts of > handeling and use/abuse. For Q-bus 11s the DEQNA was an > acceptable device. DELQAs while nicer were scarcer. I don't think that *now*, DELQA's are scarcer. They may have been at the time, but not now. --f From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jun 15 13:12:07 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:12:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT sortof (HUMOR) In-Reply-To: <00a401c571d5$4332c2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00a401c571d5$4332c2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <49370.82.152.112.73.1118859127.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > When I read this, I kept thinking of all the great classiccmp list debates > and just got a few good chuckles: Ah, the old USENET regular updated for the modern age - it must be on-topic for this list now :oD Still funny though... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Jun 15 13:20:05 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:20:05 +0200 (MEST) Subject: PDP11/23 - prompt? In-Reply-To: <42B0647D.5060901@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Aha. But why is there no memory test etc? My documentation tells me > about memory test messages etc. and a start prompt. Are there several > bootstrap loaders around? It does seem like a customized one. A regular bootstrap would look like: --------- 256 KW START? _ -------- or such. > If yes, does anyone have a better one? Depends on the cards you have. Open up the box, and list us the cards (the Mxxxx numbers on the board handles will do), this will tell us the system's configuration. > What to do to get that kdf thing working? How will I know? On my CPU > board are two eproms with green labels and nothing written on them. The > docum > > If it is possible that I don't have the original bootstrap - can anyone > send it to me via email? > > > You need to carefully inventory your boards and determine what you > > have. > Oh, scrap the above :) > I have: > - CPU (M8189) M8189 KDF11-BA Q 11/23-PLUS single-board CPU > - RAM (M8067), 128k*18? M8067-FA MSV11-PF Q 128-Kbyte MOS memory with parity CSR M8067-KA MSV11-PK Q 256-kbyte MOS memory with parity CSR M8067-LA MSV11-PL Q 512-Kbyte MOS memory with parity CSR > - RAM (8059), same size? M8059-FA MSV11-LF Q 64-Kword MOS RAM, single voltage > - Floppy controller M8029 M8029 RXV21 Q RX02 floppy disk controller, 18-bit DMA only. > - Emulex SC02/C RK06/07 compatible SMD disk controller (for my Ampex > hard drive) > - 2 * M8043 (4 serial ports) M8043 DLVJ1-M Q 4-Line Asynchronous Interface > - 1 unknown Plessey interface card, P/No. 701775 (What's that ?) Dunno, sorry. So, this is an 11/23-PLUS (meaning, 22-bit Qbus), with at least 64+ 2x128KB (probably more, depending on which model of those two cards), an RX interface, 8 serial ports (plus console), the hard disk interface, and the Plessey card, which could be tape, or I/O of some sort. The system *could* have a non-standard boot ROM on the CPU board. If so, it will be easy to restore an original in there. It **could** be the ROM from the Emulex card, by the way, as the system most likely needed to boot off the Emulex card. --f From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 15 13:22:09 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:22:09 -0400 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s References: <003701c571d2$24eb5300$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <17072.29137.488488.980406@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Bob" == Bob Shannon writes: Bob> Speaking of the CDC and its PPU's... Bob> Does anyone have software to use on the 6600 emulator? Tom Hunter's DtCyber includes a copy of COS. There is lots of other stuff but there are still restrictions on distribution, unfortunately. Also check out www.cyber1.org. Bob> Has anyone put one of these machines onto VLSI? You mean recently? I believe the University of Illinois did that in the late 1970s, or at least was thinking about it. I've seen some discussion recently that you could put a complete 6600 into a high end FPGA. That would be neat. I haven't heard of that being actually done, though. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 15 13:28:02 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:28:02 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale References: <0II4001CMY72EXPA@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <17072.29490.255442.273449@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: Allison> Actually depending on OS and general usage the critical Allison> factor for the DEQNA was not rev but, is it functional at Allison> all? Most of the DEQNAs I've touched and used either worked Allison> or were dead, rev was a minor issue save for certain OS Allison> support issues. One of the REV issues was that the more Allison> reworked versions tended to have more failures (IE plain old Allison> dead) resulting from greater amounts of handeling and Allison> use/abuse. For Q-bus 11s the DEQNA was an acceptable Allison> device. >From what I remember (very blurry now) DEQNAs were known to corrupt data. That was very obvious on VAXclusters, which is why VMS eventually took them off the supported device list permanently. But it's an issue for any application (except, *maybe*, when running TCP since the TCP layer checksum may help -- or may not, it's not that strong...). That applies just as much for PDP11s. paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 15 14:20:33 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:20:33 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale Message-ID: <0II500EU64D8PTL5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale > From: "Fred N. van Kempen" > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:09:17 +0200 (MEST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: > >> Actually depending on OS and general usage the critical factor for >> the DEQNA was not rev but, is it functional at all? Most of the >> DEQNAs I've touched and used either worked or were dead, rev was a >> minor issue save for certain OS support issues. >I have about 20, and they're all OK. Screwy, but OK. > >> One of the REV >> issues was that the more reworked versions tended to have more >> failures (IE plain old dead) resulting from greater amounts of >> handeling and use/abuse. For Q-bus 11s the DEQNA was an >> acceptable device. DELQAs while nicer were scarcer. >I don't think that *now*, DELQA's are scarcer. They may have >been at the time, but not now. Nope. DELQAs appeared as Qbus was becomming less common (AKA microVAXen) and many of those when the DEQNA was retired it was because the uVAX had been too. Qbus uVAXen were often replaced by 3100s and other non-Q systems. Field circus was also slow to replace them with DELQAs unless the DEQNA had failed or was at issue for OS or other misfunctions. Bluntly FS was cheap and one of the last profit centers. By shear force of numbers there were never as many DELQAs as DEQNAs manufactured. Allison From cbmpet2001 at yahoo.de Wed Jun 15 14:22:32 2005 From: cbmpet2001 at yahoo.de (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:22:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP system available across the pond :) In-Reply-To: <009801c571d4$80985700$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20050615192232.32261.qmail@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Sounds nice. Are there any chances to ship this system in europe? Regards, Wolfgang BTW: I think it's a bit OT, but I have a nice DEC P9000 System available. Boots nicely Unix System V. Some Docs and Terminals are available too. Drop a line if somebody is interested. --- Jay West schrieb: > I received an email about a PDP system being available. This system > MAY be > spoken for tentatively, but because the guy is in a hurry I wanted to > get > the word out in case the current candidate doesn't want it.... System > > description: > > ------------------ > The PDP-11/73 is 19" rack mounted (rack not included). It consists of > the > main cabinet (CPU, RAM, I/O, RM02 100 MB disk), expansion unit with > two 300 MB Disk (at least one of them OK) and another unit with a > 1/2" > tape drive. > > RAM: 512 kb (not quite sure about it, can be less), > I/O: Ethernet, 4 x rs-232, real-time clock card, GPIB controller(NI), > ADC (NI), parallel port, CAMAC interface. > > It was running RSX-11M 4.2 and DECnet (don't remember version). > We have all manuals (RSX+DECnet) and tapes with the OS software. > > Please let me know if there is anybody interested a.s.a.p. - I can't > store the system much longer. > -------------------- > > And... the system is located in Uppsala, Sweden. While the subject of > price > hasn't been broached, I am under the impression it's available for > the > carting away, but there may be a small fee. If anyone is interested, > drop me > a line and if the primary candidate doesn't want it, I'll draw > numbers out > of a hat :) This system must be picked up immediately! > > Jay > > ==================================================== Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger cell.: +43-664-240-65-92 http://www.eichberger.org email: wolfgang at eichberger.org ---------------------------------------------------- Gruentalerstr. 24 - 4020 Linz ? AUSTRIA ==================================================== From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Wed Jun 15 14:34:26 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:34:26 +0200 Subject: MicroVAX-II IAPX86 Assembler and Utilities Package Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050615212915.02c5d870@pop.xs4all.nl> Cleaning up here and just cames across this ; MicroVAX-II IAPX86 Assembler and Utilities Package VMS backup format. P/N 483967-001 Version 4.3. By Intel. Comes on CompacTape. Untested but looks unused. Anybody interested ? I also have : VAX/VMS-MICROVMS V4 MUP TK50 (2x) VAX/VMS V4.6 BIN TK50 VAX/VMS V4.6 BIN TK50 MANDATORY UPDATE and ME8002 VAX RDB/VMS MULTI V4.1 16MT9 ME8007 VAX RDB/VMS V4.1 STANDARD16MT Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From tomj at wps.com Wed Jun 15 14:24:37 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board In-Reply-To: <0II3003FE8TSX90Q@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0II3003FE8TSX90Q@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050615122340.R820@localhost> On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: >> di ; everyone shut up, please >> lxi h, epromstartaddress ; EPROM address >> lxi d, epromstartaddress ; likewise, I'm sure, >> lxi b, 2048 ; BC=EPROM size >> ldir ; whirl! >> in 0 ; disables EPROM >> ... >> > > Only one detail... the proposed cpu was 8080 (MITS 8800B)! > Horrid as it's mixed 8080/z80 code. Oh whatever -- it was an explanation, not a hex image for you to burn! From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 15 14:31:33 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:31:33 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale Message-ID: <0II5004NU4VKRIPG@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale > From: Paul Koning > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:28:02 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: > > Allison> Actually depending on OS and general usage the critical > Allison> factor for the DEQNA was not rev but, is it functional at > Allison> all? Most of the DEQNAs I've touched and used either worked > Allison> or were dead, rev was a minor issue save for certain OS > Allison> support issues. One of the REV issues was that the more > Allison> reworked versions tended to have more failures (IE plain old > Allison> dead) resulting from greater amounts of handeling and > Allison> use/abuse. For Q-bus 11s the DEQNA was an acceptable > Allison> device. > >>From what I remember (very blurry now) DEQNAs were known to corrupt >data. That was very obvious on VAXclusters, which is why VMS >eventually took them off the supported device list permanently. But >it's an issue for any application (except, *maybe*, when running TCP >since the TCP layer checksum may help -- or may not, it's not that >strong...). That applies just as much for PDP11s. > > paul No they _could_ corrupt data, not they did all the time. The differnce was the error rate was not what DEC wanted for transactions. The VAX people put pressure to not have to test the data as LAVCs (Local Area VAX Clusters) were popular to a point and required a very high level of data (code!) integrety. The frequency of the failure was related to the traffic level on the local loop. The second level of that was plain product improvement. The DEQNA was a dense board with a low MTBF (errors excluded) and field support and board costs were high. Replacement (supported [aka endorsed] by the VAX folks) was a desireable thing if the new card was more robust [higher MTBF and fewer "bugs"]. I was part of the uVAX side of things as the products I was involved with (LPS40 and LPS20 network printers) used an embedded microVAX and the LPS40 inparticular was a complete BA23 sans disks and netbooted from host VAX. It was "interesting" string of events. Such was the fun of being there. Allison From cctech at randy482.com Wed Jun 15 14:30:56 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:30:56 -0500 Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board References: <0II3003FE8TSX90Q@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <20050615122340.R820@localhost> Message-ID: <001201c571e0$c3f2f620$823cd7d1@Randy2> From: "Tom Jennings" Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 2:24 PM > On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: > >>> di ; everyone shut up, please >>> lxi h, epromstartaddress ; EPROM address >>> lxi d, epromstartaddress ; likewise, I'm sure, >>> lxi b, 2048 ; BC=EPROM size >>> ldir ; whirl! >>> in 0 ; disables EPROM >>> ... >>> >> >> Only one detail... the proposed cpu was 8080 (MITS 8800B)! > >> Horrid as it's mixed 8080/z80 code. > > > Oh whatever -- it was an explanation, not a hex image for you to burn! There were plenty of Z80 assemblers that used Intel mnemonics with Z80 extensions and the code is correct for them. The first great Z80 assembler, TDL is a good example. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jun 15 14:38:48 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:38:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: NEXTstep web browsers Message-ID: <49594.82.152.112.73.1118864328.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Hi folks, Having got NEXTStep 3.3 and all the toys my mind naturally set about wondering if I could compile Firefox on my slab, and having got as far as 'probably' I've decided the machine's probably not going to be fast enough for such a modern browser. This brings to mind the question of NEXTstep browsers, and the realisation that there's probably only one - OmniWeb, so I've downloaded 2.7b3 but does anyone know if there are any other browsers or later versions of OmniWeb? ta! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From tomj at wps.com Wed Jun 15 14:38:59 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KA9Q, was Re: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <200506150815.JAA14518@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200506150815.JAA14518@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <20050615123236.H820@localhost> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Stan Barr wrote: > I also ran KA9Q tcp/ip over packet radio on a 386 with MSDOS for quite a > while (and I think I've still got the disks somewhere), does that count > as "online"? Damn right it does! We (the little garden) ran a whole internet on 40 MHz 386 boxes with KA9Q as router for four member/customers (four serial cards and four modems, with ethernet to a 3COM Brouter or in some cases another KA9Q box as uplink). Around 1992. Real TCP/IP and minimal routing, plus local (keyboard/CRT) support for client and servers. Doesn't get more real than that! These were in 100% uptime service too, not hobbiest experimentation. Reliability was OK, not acceptable by today's standards but considering each cost 0.3 X of a commercial router, we were not complaining. Uptime was fair, and quickly improving when we got actual money and bought Livingstons. Phil Karn deserves a lot of credit for that great software. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 15 14:41:49 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:41:49 -0500 Subject: Does anyone have an Altos CPM/MPM machine available? In-Reply-To: <001101c571af$da758ec0$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <001101c571af$da758ec0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <42B0847D.7000506@mdrconsult.com> Bob Shannon wrote: > I'm going to try to get my old Altos 5-15D working. > > Currently its having a problem during power-on self test, drive B does > not seem to > be seeking to track 00. The machine will not boot from A: without > thinking the B: > drive is happy. OK, now I'm convinced that the system board is jumpered for floppy characteristics. My 580 has one floppy drive and a hard disk, and does not recognize a second floppy disk (unterminated and jumpered to ID 1) at all. Some service docs would be very helpful, wouldn't they? :\ > The drives are CDC 720K 5.25 inch, full height drives. > > I'm looking for spare drives, a parts machine, or a working Altos. Me too. By the way, I find mine much more enjoyable since I replaced the 110VAC case fan with a 120mm 12VDC fan. It moves nearly as much air and it's a lot less noisy. Plus, at 9W, the 110V fan must have been sucking nearly as much power as the rest of the box. Doc From tomj at wps.com Wed Jun 15 14:51:34 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board In-Reply-To: <003c01c57113$72bdb600$9f3dd7d1@randy> References: <0II1009H0U1DJJR1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <20050614113840.Y914@localhost> <003c01c57113$72bdb600$9f3dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <20050615124311.B820@localhost> On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > Please note that by using current RAM chips that are >= 64K address decoding > is extremely simplified. To carve out space from ROM not only butchers the > address map but adds complexity. > > As I already said either an I/O instruction or an address line can accomplish > the same task. I think you missed the point, plus I left out one detail: * It specifically doens't require carving the address space up AT ALL. The machine simply has 64K contiguous RAM, from 0000h to ffffh. * The EPROM board used PHANTOM to disable RAM when addressed -- I left that little detail out! * The "top 2K of the first 32K" description was distracting in this example, sorry. For completeness: That address was chosen for this system because it used two 32K RAM cards; you could run the EPROM monitor with only th elower one; plus in the S100 days a common "convention" was to put floppy controller or whatever address space "up high", and 7e00h avoided colliding; pressing RESET smashed memory at that location, and not in any CP/M system space (eg. 0 - 80h or 48K+). It obviously requires a CPU card that does reset-vectoring, ala Cromemco ZPU. A vanilla 8080 (eg. MITS) of course resets to 0000h; this trick is even cleaner for that, since the "copy EPROM code to RAM" could do so without bothering the RAM area overlaid by the EPROM during the copy process. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 14:56:28 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:56:28 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale In-Reply-To: <0II5004NU4VKRIPG@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0II5004NU4VKRIPG@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 6/15/05, Allison wrote: > No they _could_ corrupt data, not they did all the time... > The frequency of the failure was related to the traffic level on the local loop. So then, in the modern era, putting a DEQNA on its own switch port (i.e. - a tiny collision domain) should increase data reliability? -ethan From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 15:00:01 2005 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:00:01 -0400 Subject: Microlog 8-bit ISA 8" floppy controller Message-ID: Hello all, I recently acquired a Microlog PC-107 8" disk controller, with manual and software disk. This is an 8-bit ISA card intended to go in a PC 5150, and allow the user to access 8" drives with DOS. Back in the 5150 days, having 1.2MB of storage was a big deal when 5.25" floppies were 160KB. There is also some note in the manual about reading SSSD CP/M disks and copying files. The only bad news is that it is intended to work only with DOS 1.1, and it actually patches DOS to set its hooks in the system. I'd like to try it with a more modern DOS, but it will require some work :-(. The good news is that the disk that came with it was readable :-), and contains a file called BIOS.A86, which has the following comment at the top: ;**************************************************************** ;* * ;* BIOS FOR IBM-PC DOS 1.1 * ;* * ;**************************************************************** TITLE 'BIOS FOR IBM-PC DOS 1.1 WITH MICROLOG 8" DRIVERS' This appears to be the source for part of the standard DOS 1.1, with Microlog's patches. Theoretically, then, I can deduce how the card works, and maybe make it work with a newer DOS. I was wondering: 1) is anyone is using the same controller successfully with DOS 1.1? 2) has anyone already ported this to a newer DOS version? 3) is anyone else interested in the port if I do it? Thanks! Rich B. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 15 15:02:43 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:02:43 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale References: <0II5004NU4VKRIPG@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <17072.35171.687598.492241@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: >>> From what I remember (very blurry now) DEQNAs were known to >>> corrupt >> data. That was very obvious on VAXclusters, which is why VMS >> eventually took them off the supported device list permanently. >> But it's an issue for any application (except, *maybe*, when >> running TCP since the TCP layer checksum may help -- or may not, >> it's not that strong...). That applies just as much for PDP11s. >> >> paul Allison> No they _could_ corrupt data, not they did all the time. Allison> The differnce was the error rate was not what DEC wanted for Allison> transactions. The VAX people put pressure to not have to Allison> test the data as LAVCs (Local Area VAX Clusters) were Allison> popular to a point and required a very high level of data Allison> (code!) integrety. The frequency of the failure was related Allison> to the traffic level on the local loop. "pressure not to have to test the data" -- hm. That's an interesting way of looking at. The way I would look at it is that ALL DEC network protocols put the responsibility for data integrity in the network devices; NONE of them had upper layer checksums the way TCP does. That's why DEC Ethernet bridges always had end to end CRC. And that's why DEC insisted on 32 bit CRC for Ethernet -- 16 bit CRC isn't good enough at those data rates. The expectation (and probably the expressly stated requirement, though I don't remember for sure) is that Ethernet NIC devices were required to deliver that level of data integrity to the host. So in fact the QNA was failing to deliver the data integrity that everyone expect it to deliver. The VAXcluster people were the most vocal and had the most pull, so they were the ones who actually had the power to say "we will not accept that device". But plenty of other people cheered when that happened. Certainly the network architecture group, responsible for standards, did. Allison> I was part of the uVAX side of things as the products I was Allison> involved with (LPS40 and LPS20 network printers) used an Allison> embedded microVAX and the LPS40 inparticular was a complete Allison> BA23 sans disks and netbooted from host VAX. It was Allison> "interesting" string of events. Such was the fun of being Allison> there. I remember the LPS40. Nice machine. paul From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 15:05:51 2005 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:05:51 -0400 Subject: Default password for Pick system on an AT? Message-ID: Hello all, I recently acquired an IBM PC-AT 5170, and it is running Pick. When it boots up, there are some startup messages, then a banner: THE PICK SYSTEM PC-AT VER 2.1 of 26 Mar 87 Then, there is a "Logon" prompt. I have no idea what the correct login is, and I am not the original owner (nor is the person I got the system from). Is there some default login? Google didn't seem to be of much help.... I tried obvious things like "pick", "login", "user", etc .... Even tried mixed-case, and all uppercase.... no joy :-( Thanks for any help in advance.... Rich B. From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Jun 15 15:22:46 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:22:46 -0500 Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board References: <0II1009H0U1DJJR1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net><20050614113840.Y914@localhost><003c01c57113$72bdb600$9f3dd7d1@randy> <20050615124311.B820@localhost> Message-ID: <001201c571e8$0284b4d0$ac3cd7d1@Randy2> From: "Tom Jennings" Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 2:51 PM > On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >> Please note that by using current RAM chips that are >= 64K address >> decoding is extremely simplified. To carve out space from ROM not only >> butchers the address map but adds complexity. >> >> As I already said either an I/O instruction or an address line can >> accomplish the same task. > > I think you missed the point, plus I left out one detail: > > * It specifically doens't require carving the address space up AT > ALL. The machine simply has 64K contiguous RAM, from 0000h to > ffffh. > > * The EPROM board used PHANTOM to disable RAM when addressed -- I > left that little detail out! I understood, I was referring to the trigger for phantom. It does not matter how the flip flop gets set as long as it does not interfere with the initialization of the monitor. I was agreeing that it is best to use phantom to access ROM rather than address decoding that leaves a ROM window. In the early days of S100 systems mass storage was not the norm, so having a permanent ROM monitor (some complete OS's with assemblers, etc) made sense. Another point is there were no 64K RAM chips so address decoding had a different standard to what anyone would build today. Today I prefer 512K RAM's so that address decoding is replaced with MMU. The methods of releasing phantom that I'm most familiar with are either a bit in an I/O port so the ROM can be brought back in the address space if needed or a particular addressing bit that shows the ROM is no longer needed. Tarbell used address bit 5 to reset phantom, the boot ROM just falls through to disable the boot ROM. Tarbell's boot ROM reads a sector into RAM and when execution hits it phantom is disabled. There are lots of ways to reset phantom depending on needs. With Flash ROM's I prefer I/O port access so the ROM can be re-programmed ala SuperIO. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From dieymir at yahoo.es Wed Jun 15 15:34:22 2005 From: dieymir at yahoo.es (Diego Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:34:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 22, Issue 32 In-Reply-To: <200506141530.j5EFUDKU021801@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050615203422.57485.qmail@web25604.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > > Message: 35 > Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 20:50:59 -0700 (PDT) > From: Chris M > Subject: how to image pre dos 2.0 disks (?) > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <20050613035059.97966.qmail at web61016.mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Winimage has beem doing a pretty good job until now, > but it chokes on some really early stuff. It also > doesnt like some diagnostic programs, that are not > recognized as FAT. And you also cant, to my knowledge > dump an image to a disk differing from the original. > Any suggestions? > CP/M fans use a DOS program named 'Teledisk' to make floppy images, maybe this works for you (I never used it). If you have access to a *NIX-like OS (Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, ...) you can try the 'dd' utility. Hope this helps. ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 15 15:53:18 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:53:18 -0500 Subject: Default password for Pick system on an AT? References: Message-ID: <000601c571ec$42a77b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote... > I recently acquired an IBM PC-AT 5170, and it is running Pick. When > it boots up, there are some startup messages, then a banner: Awesome... soon you'll be a Pick addict :) I've dealt with a *LOT* of different versions of BASIC, and IMHO I've never found a BASIC nearly as nice as Pick BASIC. Not even close. > THE PICK SYSTEM > PC-AT VER 2.1 of 26 Mar 87 > > Then, there is a "Logon" prompt. I have no idea what the correct > login is, and I am not the original owner (nor is the person I got the > system from). The classic "superuser" account on all pick systems is SYSPROG try logging in with that. By default, there was no password. However, it was extremely common to password protect that even in tiny shops. If it's a late version of pick (doubtful), use DM (which should be just a Q-account to SYSPROG). Note, most Picks the login was typically all upper case. > Is there some default login? Google didn't seem to be of much > help.... I tried obvious things like "pick", "login", "user", etc > .... Even tried mixed-case, and all uppercase.... no joy :-( > > Thanks for any help in advance.... There was a way to break in the system. I'm going from foggy memory... as I recall, I would log on to an account that wasn't supposed to be logged in to (not from a security standpoint, there were some data repositories in pick that they typically set up as an account but weren't really valid accounts). However, you could log in to them. I seem to recall ERRMSG account, perhaps BLOCK-LETTERS. Once you logged in, since these weren't really "accounts" you had little or no valid master dictionary (ie. no commands). BUT... you could at least use the break key then to get into the system debugger. Once there, you could calculate the system base frame and start from there, tracking down to the SYSTEM file (where users were kept). The data bytes in a raw frame for the sysprog account were obvious :) On older systems, before they hashed passwords, you could see the password for SYSPROG in plain text. On newer systems, it was a hash. However, you could generate a known hash on a different machine and then just patch that hash in place of the current hash. Then log out from the debugger and log into SYSPROG. I am quite sure the above is basically correct, however time may have made parts of the above fuzzy. If you have no success with any of the above, give me a shout and I'll dig up the necessary manuals and get you broken in. Regards, Jay West From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 15 15:53:41 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:53:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP11/23 - prompt? In-Reply-To: Philipp Hachtmann "Re: PDP11/23 - prompt?" (Jun 15, 19:25) References: <42B0647D.5060901@hachti.de> Message-ID: <10506152153.ZM14066@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 15 2005, 19:25, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > If it is possible that I don't have the original bootstrap - can anyone > send it to me via email? You may have the original, but if so it's disabled. "two eproms with green labels and nothing written on them" is unlike any originals I've seen :-) If you do want originals, go to http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ and download 23-339E2 and 23-340E2. > > You need to carefully inventory your boards and determine what you > > have. > > I have: > - CPU (M8189) > - RAM (M8067), 128k*18? > - RAM (8059), same size? > - Floppy controller M8029 > - Emulex SC02/C RK06/07 compatible SMD disk controller (for my Ampex > hard drive) > - 2 * M8043 (4 serial ports) > - 1 unknown Plessey interface card, P/No. 701775 (What's that ?) I can't find the Plessey list I'd bookmarked so I can't say what that is :-( However, that SC02/C accounts for the "$" boot prompt, and either the EPROMs on the KDF11 are disabled or have been replaced in order to support the SC02. DEC didn't support RK06/7 on QBus so none of the standard bootstrap ROMs support it. The SC02 has its own, however, although it's very simple, and that's what you're seeing. It will expect a simple two-letter mnemonic (DM for your emulated RK system) with an optional unit number (eg "DM", "DM0", or "DM1"). Interesting number of serial lines on there. 8 on the DLV11-Js, and two on the CPU (one of which is the console, as you've clearly discovered). I'd guess this used to run RSX-11M. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Jun 15 16:21:09 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:21:09 -0700 Subject: PDP11/23 - prompt? In-Reply-To: <10506152153.ZM14066@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <42B0647D.5060901@hachti.de> <10506152153.ZM14066@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: At 9:53 PM +0100 6/15/05, Pete Turnbull wrote: >Interesting number of serial lines on there. 8 on the DLV11-Js, and >two on the CPU (one of which is the console, as you've clearly >discovered). I'd guess this used to run RSX-11M. As long as we're guessing... my /73 came similarly equipped, that is SC02/C and an Emulex CS02/H (16 line DH/DM workalike). The system came from a pump manufacturer and ran TSX+. John From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Wed Jun 15 19:56:59 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:56:59 -0500 Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: <49594.82.152.112.73.1118864328.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <49594.82.152.112.73.1118864328.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <42B0CE5B.9020602@vzavenue.net> OmniWeb 3.0 was the last supported on 3.3 and black hardware. ftp://ftp.blackcube.org/NeXT2/Berlin/net/www/apps/commercial/ Witchy wrote: >Hi folks, > >Having got NEXTStep 3.3 and all the toys my mind naturally set about >wondering if I could compile Firefox on my slab, and having got as far as >'probably' I've decided the machine's probably not going to be fast enough >for such a modern browser. > >This brings to mind the question of NEXTstep browsers, and the realisation >that there's probably only one - OmniWeb, so I've downloaded 2.7b3 but >does anyone know if there are any other browsers or later versions of >OmniWeb? > >ta! > > > -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jun 15 16:38:09 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:38:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: <42B0CE5B.9020602@vzavenue.net> References: <49594.82.152.112.73.1118864328.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42B0CE5B.9020602@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <49745.82.152.112.73.1118871489.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> That's brilliant - thanks :) > OmniWeb 3.0 was the last supported on 3.3 and black hardware. > > ftp://ftp.blackcube.org/NeXT2/Berlin/net/www/apps/commercial/ > -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 15 17:05:42 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:05:42 +0000 Subject: OT sortof (HUMOR) In-Reply-To: <00a401c571d5$4332c2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00a401c571d5$4332c2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1118873142.5334.23.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 13:08 -0500, Jay West wrote: > Someone passed this on to me a while back, I'm not sure if I posted it here > or not yet. If I did, I apologize for the second post. > > When I read this, I kept thinking of all the great classiccmp list debates > and just got a few good chuckles: > > How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light > bulb? You should have swapped "light bulb" for "front panel lamp" :-) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jun 15 17:07:53 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:07:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: <42B0CE5B.9020602@vzavenue.net> References: <49594.82.152.112.73.1118864328.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42B0CE5B.9020602@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <49775.82.152.112.73.1118873273.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > OmniWeb 3.0 was the last supported on 3.3 and black hardware. > > ftp://ftp.blackcube.org/NeXT2/Berlin/net/www/apps/commercia bugger, all those links bring up zero length files no matter what platform I use....curses. Good job I've got 2.7 here :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Jun 15 17:12:25 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:12:25 -0500 Subject: OT sortof (HUMOR) References: <00a401c571d5$4332c2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <1118873142.5334.23.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000c01c571f7$536313b0$8f3dd7d1@Randy2> From: "Jules Richardson" Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 5:05 PM > On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 13:08 -0500, Jay West wrote: >> Someone passed this on to me a while back, I'm not sure if I posted it >> here >> or not yet. If I did, I apologize for the second post. >> >> When I read this, I kept thinking of all the great classiccmp list >> debates >> and just got a few good chuckles: >> >> How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light >> bulb? > > You should have swapped "light bulb" for "front panel lamp" :-) Shouldn't we first form a committee to determine which front panel lamp's are acceptable for on topic discussions? ;~} Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jrice54 at blackcube.org Wed Jun 15 20:57:48 2005 From: jrice54 at blackcube.org (James Rice) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:57:48 -0500 Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: <49775.82.152.112.73.1118873273.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <49594.82.152.112.73.1118864328.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42B0CE5B.9020602@vzavenue.net> <49775.82.152.112.73.1118873273.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <42B0DC9C.4070601@blackcube.org> Witchy wrote: >>OmniWeb 3.0 was the last supported on 3.3 and black hardware. >> >>ftp://ftp.blackcube.org/NeXT2/Berlin/net/www/apps/commercia >> >> > >bugger, all those links bring up zero length files no matter what platform >I use....curses. Good job I've got 2.7 here :) > > > Try again. I was moving some stuff around the other day and probably had some bad links James From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Jun 15 17:23:37 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:23:37 -0500 Subject: NEXTstep web browsers References: <49594.82.152.112.73.1118864328.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk><42B0CE5B.9020602@vzavenue.net> <49775.82.152.112.73.1118873273.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <000901c571f8$dfee4650$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Witchy" Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 5:07 PM > > OmniWeb 3.0 was the last supported on 3.3 and black hardware. > > > > ftp://ftp.blackcube.org/NeXT2/Berlin/net/www/apps/commercia > > bugger, all those links bring up zero length files no matter what platform > I use....curses. Good job I've got 2.7 here :) > > -- > adrian/witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? I don't have a Next but I decided to try it myself with the same rsults. I then did a search for one of the file names and found lot's of repositories: google - "omniweb next" If you know what your'e looking for you can find it, the site atleast gives a list of what to look for. Randy www.s100-manuals From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 15 17:26:57 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:26:57 +0000 Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: <49775.82.152.112.73.1118873273.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <49594.82.152.112.73.1118864328.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42B0CE5B.9020602@vzavenue.net> <49775.82.152.112.73.1118873273.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1118874417.5331.25.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 23:07 +0100, Witchy wrote: > > OmniWeb 3.0 was the last supported on 3.3 and black hardware. > > > > ftp://ftp.blackcube.org/NeXT2/Berlin/net/www/apps/commercia > > bugger, all those links bring up zero length files no matter what platform > I use....curses. Good job I've got 2.7 here :) Just had a peek in a command-line client; drop the Next2 bit and I think it'll find useful stuff :-) cheers Jules From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jun 15 17:34:27 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:34:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: <42B0DC9C.4070601@blackcube.org> References: <49594.82.152.112.73.1118864328.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42B0CE5B.9020602@vzavenue.net> <49775.82.152.112.73.1118873273.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42B0DC9C.4070601@blackcube.org> Message-ID: <49925.82.152.112.73.1118874867.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Try again. I was moving some stuff around the other day and probably > had some bad links Yep, Jules got there slightly before you did :) I'd have got there myself but I've been doing other things for my daughter's 9th birthday and the house network! Not bad considering I'm 240 miles away from home....hehe.... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 15 18:22:41 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:22:41 -0400 Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board Message-ID: <0II5005ESFKQ1T70@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: MITS 8800B CPU Board > From: "Randy McLaughlin" > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:30:56 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >From: "Tom Jennings" >Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 2:24 PM > > >> On Tue, 14 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: >> >>>> di ; everyone shut up, please >>>> lxi h, epromstartaddress ; EPROM address >>>> lxi d, epromstartaddress ; likewise, I'm sure, >>>> lxi b, 2048 ; BC=EPROM size >>>> ldir ; whirl! >>>> in 0 ; disables EPROM >>>> ... >>>> >>> >>> Only one detail... the proposed cpu was 8080 (MITS 8800B)! >> >>> Horrid as it's mixed 8080/z80 code. >> >> >> Oh whatever -- it was an explanation, not a hex image for you to burn! > >There were plenty of Z80 assemblers that used Intel mnemonics with Z80 >extensions and the code is correct for them. The first great Z80 assembler, >TDL is a good example. I use a couple of them TDL included. I happen to like the intel flavor z80 opcodes. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 15 18:24:44 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:24:44 -0400 Subject: NEXTstep web browsers Message-ID: <0II5001WKFO5QU70@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: NEXTstep web browsers > From: "Witchy" > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:38:48 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Hi folks, > >Having got NEXTStep 3.3 and all the toys my mind naturally set about >wondering if I could compile Firefox on my slab, and having got as far as >'probably' I've decided the machine's probably not going to be fast enough >for such a modern browser. How slow is it? I Happen to run firefox on a P166 and also run it on a P100 and its ok, slow to start but then fine. >This brings to mind the question of NEXTstep browsers, and the realisation >that there's probably only one - OmniWeb, so I've downloaded 2.7b3 but >does anyone know if there are any other browsers or later versions of >OmniWeb? Shame Offbyone (OB1) isn't availab;e for other platforms very fast though very simple. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 15 18:29:30 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:29:30 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale Message-ID: <0II500FHJFW2CS70@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:56:28 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 6/15/05, Allison wrote: >> No they _could_ corrupt data, not they did all the time... >> The frequency of the failure was related to the traffic level on the local loop. > >So then, in the modern era, putting a DEQNA on its own switch port >(i.e. - a tiny collision domain) should increase data reliability? Wouldn't hurt. I have a few Qbus boxen here only one has a DELQA, the rest are DEQNAs most rev-E and a few rev-J. They work. I've run a LAVC under VMS5.4 using them along with a few 3100s and nothing ever spit up or died. Would I rather a DELQA, yes, but I'd not refuse a working DEQNA. Allison From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jun 15 18:34:17 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:34:17 +0200 Subject: PDP11/23 - prompt? In-Reply-To: References: <42B0647D.5060901@hachti.de> <10506152153.ZM14066@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <42B0BAF9.7050904@hachti.de> Hi everybody, first I want to thank everybody who gave me a hint. These were very helpful. Everybody was right. I just did'nt know where to start looking for more info - the doc stack is quite huge.... My new state: I have found the $-info in the Emulex manual. And I learned how to enable/disable the different bootstrap codes. Now my machine comes up with: > TESTING MEMORY > 0256.KW > START? I begin to understand what's going on :-) >> Interesting number of serial lines on there. 8 on the DLV11-Js, and >> two on the CPU (one of which is the console, as you've clearly >> discovered). I'd guess this used to run RSX-11M. Yes, this machine ran RSX11-M. I also have an original licence for RSX-11M. Hope to get it working again. With my machine came a lot of 8" diskettes (perhaps more than 100), they don't look original. And there is an Ampex 996 fixed/removable (combi) disk drive (80+16MB) with SMD interface. I will fetch that tomorrow. The unit powers up but I'm missing an address plug for it and the "ready upper" light does not work. Hope to get it working without too much trouble. I will see if I can get the PDP11 to boot from harddisk. Would be cool. I'll try to keep my harddisk contents because I don't know how to get new software into the machine and back. Hope to know more, soon. Good night, Philipp :-) From KParker at workcover.com Wed Jun 15 18:34:59 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:04:59 +0930 Subject: New Bounties: TI Personal Consultant Plus and M1 Expert Shell ($$$) Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C0B7@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Hi Sellam - I've emailed a friend of mine who is not on this list who used to work for TI as one of their Service Managers - he thinks he can help - I've given him your email address. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Wednesday, 15 June 2005 8:04 AM To: Classic Computers Mailing List; Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: New Bounties: TI Personal Consultant Plus and M1 Expert Shell ($$$) I am currently seeking the following software for a client: Texas Instruments Personal Consultant Plus (tm) expert shell (circa 1987). M1 Expert Shell (circa late 1980s). Both of these expert systems are PC-based. If you have either of these, please contact me privately. This is a bounty so there's a cash reward! Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 15 18:36:35 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:36:35 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale Message-ID: <0II5005X7G7W1X80@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: PDP 11/23 PLUS system for sale > From: Paul Koning > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:02:43 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: > > >>> From what I remember (very blurry now) DEQNAs were known to > >>> corrupt > >> data. That was very obvious on VAXclusters, which is why VMS > >> eventually took them off the supported device list permanently. > >> But it's an issue for any application (except, *maybe*, when > >> running TCP since the TCP layer checksum may help -- or may not, > >> it's not that strong...). That applies just as much for PDP11s. > >> > >> paul > > Allison> No they _could_ corrupt data, not they did all the time. > Allison> The differnce was the error rate was not what DEC wanted for > Allison> transactions. The VAX people put pressure to not have to > Allison> test the data as LAVCs (Local Area VAX Clusters) were > Allison> popular to a point and required a very high level of data > Allison> (code!) integrety. The frequency of the failure was related > Allison> to the traffic level on the local loop. > >"pressure not to have to test the data" -- hm. That's an interesting >way of looking at. The way I would look at it is that ALL DEC network >protocols put the responsibility for data integrity in the network >devices; NONE of them had upper layer checksums the way TCP does. >That's why DEC Ethernet bridges always had end to end CRC. And that's >why DEC insisted on 32 bit CRC for Ethernet -- 16 bit CRC isn't good >enough at those data rates. The expectation (and probably the >expressly stated requirement, though I don't remember for sure) is >that Ethernet NIC devices were required to deliver that level of data >integrity to the host. > >So in fact the QNA was failing to deliver the data integrity that >everyone expect it to deliver. The VAXcluster people were the most >vocal and had the most pull, so they were the ones who actually had >the power to say "we will not accept that device". But plenty of >other people cheered when that happened. Certainly the network >architecture group, responsible for standards, did. > That's about the story. One little bit was that doing a checksum was really a CRC and the code to do that apparently was slow on uVAX. They didn't want the impact of that in the OS driver when hardware could do it far faster. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 15 18:39:15 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:39:15 -0400 Subject: PDP11/23 - prompt? Message-ID: <0II500F7ZGCCDE70@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP11/23 - prompt? > From: Pete Turnbull > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:53:41 +0100 (BST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Jun 15 2005, 19:25, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >> If it is possible that I don't have the original bootstrap - can >anyone >> send it to me via email? > >You may have the original, but if so it's disabled. "two eproms with >green labels and nothing written on them" is unlike any originals I've >seen :-) If you do want originals, go to > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ and download 23-339E2 > and 23-340E2. > >> > You need to carefully inventory your boards and determine what you >> > have. >> >> I have: >> - CPU (M8189) >> - RAM (M8067), 128k*18? >> - RAM (8059), same size? >> - Floppy controller M8029 >> - Emulex SC02/C RK06/07 compatible SMD disk controller (for my Ampex >> hard drive) >> - 2 * M8043 (4 serial ports) >> - 1 unknown Plessey interface card, P/No. 701775 (What's that ?) > >I can't find the Plessey list I'd bookmarked so I can't say what that >is :-( > >However, that SC02/C accounts for the "$" boot prompt, and either the >EPROMs on the KDF11 are disabled or have been replaced in order to >support the SC02. DEC didn't support RK06/7 on QBus so none of the >standard bootstrap ROMs support it. The SC02 has its own, however, >although it's very simple, and that's what you're seeing. It will >expect a simple two-letter mnemonic (DM for your emulated RK system) >with an optional unit number (eg "DM", "DM0", or "DM1"). > >Interesting number of serial lines on there. 8 on the DLV11-Js, and >two on the CPU (one of which is the console, as you've clearly >discovered). I'd guess this used to run RSX-11M. Or uRSTS or RT11/TSX, or even RT11 and did data collection. Allison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jun 15 18:40:47 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:40:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: <0II5001WKFO5QU70@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0II5001WKFO5QU70@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1695.82.152.112.73.1118878847.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >>for such a modern browser. > > How slow is it? I Happen to run firefox on a P166 and also run it on > a P100 and its ok, slow to start but then fine. The slab contains a 25mhz 68040 and mine has a staggering 8mb of RAM. I think I'm asking too much of it :) > Shame Offbyone (OB1) isn't availab;e for other platforms very fast > though very simple. I'm working on the last versions of OmniWeb but they require me to install many things from CD which I'm not about to do at half midnight since I've got to be up in 5 or 6 hours......curse this 'work' thing - why can't we be paid handsomely for preserving ye olde silicon of yore?! cheers -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 15 19:00:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT sortof (HUMOR) In-Reply-To: <1118873142.5334.23.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 13:08 -0500, Jay West wrote: > > Someone passed this on to me a while back, I'm not sure if I posted it here > > or not yet. If I did, I apologize for the second post. > > > > When I read this, I kept thinking of all the great classiccmp list debates > > and just got a few good chuckles: > > > > How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light > > bulb? > > You should have swapped "light bulb" for "front panel lamp" :-) Make that 1332 then. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 15 19:00:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT sortof (HUMOR) In-Reply-To: <000c01c571f7$536313b0$8f3dd7d1@Randy2> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Jules Richardson" > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 5:05 PM > > > > On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 13:08 -0500, Jay West wrote: > >> Someone passed this on to me a while back, I'm not sure if I posted it > >> here > >> or not yet. If I did, I apologize for the second post. > >> > >> When I read this, I kept thinking of all the great classiccmp list > >> debates > >> and just got a few good chuckles: > >> > >> How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light > >> bulb? > > > > You should have swapped "light bulb" for "front panel lamp" :-) > > Shouldn't we first form a committee to determine which front panel lamp's > are acceptable for on topic discussions? ;~} 1333 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 15 19:05:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: <1695.82.152.112.73.1118878847.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2005, Witchy wrote: > got to be up in 5 or 6 hours......curse this 'work' thing - why can't we > be paid handsomely for preserving ye olde silicon of yore?! Um, actually, you can :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 15 18:46:30 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:46:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <1118818982.9735.588.camel@aragorn> from "John R. Hogerhuis" at Jun 15, 5 00:03:02 am Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 13:29 -0500, Ronald Wayne wrote: > > Bah, don't let that serve as an excuse. All three of those processors > > have been added to the list. > > On the Endurance thing, how would you score connecting to a modern > machine via a vintage computer running a terminal program? That bothered me as well... AFAIK no ISP uses vintage hardware. So you're going to be connecting to some modern machine. What is the difference between : 1) Using a classic to connect to an ISP that allows shell/UUCP access (with a non-classic at the ISP end), which then speaks TCP/IP to the rest of the world 2) Using a classic to connect to a modern machine that _you own_ using UUCP, and then having your non-clasic talk TCP/IP to an ISP (say using PPP) and thence to the rest of the world -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 15 18:48:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:48:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <200506150815.JAA14518@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Jun 15, 5 09:15:43 am Message-ID: > That's too easy, I ran Linux on a 486 for years. I still am... > I also ran KA9Q tcp/ip over packet radio on a 386 with MSDOS for quite a > while (and I think I've still got the disks somewhere), does that count > as "online"? Before I hacked this 5170, it has an 80286 processor (obviously). I ran KA9Q on that to connect to Demon. I can't remember if KA9Q will run on an 8088, though. If it will, it would be easy to get SMTP and NNTP running. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 15 18:23:05 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:23:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dodgy IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 14, 5 06:28:34 pm Message-ID: > The power connector (barrel type) had a bit of oxidation on the contacts > which I tried to clean and scrape away. I got a fair amount off of it. I > never thought to check the voltage coming out on the other end of > connector, but I'll do that tonight. If you can get to the connections at the mains adapter end of the power cable, try soldering a piece of cable between the right points in the adapter and the right points on the PSU board in the computer. That way yo by[ass the power connector and possilble broken wires in the original cable. > > > Assuming this is an electronic problem, I would first test all the > > electrolytics on an ESR meter. High-ESR capacitors cause the most odd > > faults on SMPUSs... > > I'll need to find one... There have been many projects for these in the UK magazines, I would be suprised if you couldn't find such a projected Stateside. And a google search should turn up suppliers of ready-built instruments. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 15 18:24:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:24:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: [GreenKeys] Rock and Roll Teletype 'experts' In-Reply-To: <20050615012933.5709A3BAD2@queen.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Jun 14, 5 09:29:33 pm Message-ID: > > > Said books also contain a description of a lovely electromechanical FIFO > > system used to store train descriptors on the London Underground (and its > > associated binary to 1-of-n decoder) ... > > which I suppose are still in use in the New York subway :-) Well, I'd rather trust the old electromechananical signalling system than any microprocessor-based thing... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 15 18:43:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:43:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: FS/FT: Two Xerox 6085 computers In-Reply-To: <20050615001512.47a205ae@arrakis> from "Ryan Blair" at Jun 15, 5 00:15:12 am Message-ID: I little info as to what you have... > Xerox 6085 > Hard drive is labelled as "XPIW 2.0" > Cards: > P/N 140K05980: LPO (printer port) >--- a half-height card Local Printer Option. It looks to be Centronics-like. > 140K05560: IOP (ethernet, floppy, keyboard, serial comm, serial > printer) I/O Processor. There's an 80186 (or is it an 80188) on this board which also loads the microcode in to the MPB. Of course it controls I/O once the machine is running. > 140K04160: MBP (bus extender port) Isn't in MPB? That's the Mesa Processor Board (IIRC). The main processor with a writeable control store (microcode loaded from disk at boot time), a custom sequencer chip and 4 2901-like ALU slices. > 140K01000: MEB (no ports on this card, extra memory perhaps?) Memory Expansion Board. What you thought it was. > 140K00460: DCM (display port) Display Control and Memory. The basic memory for the machine and the video circuitry. Alas there seems to be no video processor in the 6805, unlike certain other contemporary machines. > > Xerox 6085 > Hard drive labelled as "Viewpoint 2.0" > Cards: > P/N 140K05550: PCE (PC emulator card?) \____ these are half-height I think so. I don't have this in my system. > 140K05980: LPO (printer port) / cards that share a slot > 140K24340: IOP-2 (ethernet, floppy, keyboard, comm, printer) > 140K24590: MBP-2 (no ports on this card) > > 140K24580: DCM-2 (display port) > > Other hardware: > > 2 Xerox mouse pads > 2 mice > 1 keyboard > 2 floppy enclosures (one with a drive in it, one with just air) These are electrically just cables to sort out the DC37 plug back to the 34 pin edge connector and 4 pin power connector. There's a special external cable that links the DC37 on the floppy box to the DC37 on the IOP and to the 4 pin power outlet on the back of the PSU module. I have 2 of these boxes. One contains a floppy drive, the other a QIC tape drive with a floppy interface. > 1 extra hard drive tray (from browsing the docs, it looks like you > need an ST412/ST506 if you want to replace > a drive) AFAIK it's a standard ST506-like interface, yes. > These computers do not come with monitors. I do not know if it is > possible to easily cook something up to connect standard monitors to > them. Not easy at all. From what I remember, the signals are differential ECL signals, the scan rates aren't standard either. FWIW, I bought a 6805 eyars ago at a radio rally (hamfest) for 10 quid. The seller had no clue what it was, but when he pulled the MPB and I saw the 4 40 pin chips in the corner that looked like 2901s (they were...), I was hooked. It came with a monitor, but no keyboard or mouse. -tony From news at computercollector.com Wed Jun 15 19:35:50 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:35:50 -0400 Subject: Pac-Man turns 25 Message-ID: <200506160034.j5G0YWx5048325@dewey.classiccmp.org> http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/06/15/pac.man.25.ap/index.html Lenny Herman, quoted atop this AP story, also published Ralph Baer's recent autobiography. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 740 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 15 19:35:40 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:35:40 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 References: Message-ID: <004601c5720b$52aec7c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You wrote.... > AFAIK no ISP uses vintage hardware. So you're going to be connecting to > some modern machine. Well, I'm an ISP. Let's see if I can figure out how to get an IP stack on an HP2100, SLIP... attach it to a modem bank via multiple baci boards... hack up an ethernet board... and voila! Instant vintage dialup server :) Actually, I have thought about moving a machine or two into the datacenter, but then it'd be too far to play with, and run my already huge power bills through the ceiling! Jay From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 15 19:44:17 2005 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:44:17 -0700 Subject: Default password for Pick system on an AT? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B0CB61.1070904@deltasoft.com> Richard Beaudry wrote: > Hello all, > > I recently acquired an IBM PC-AT 5170, and it is running Pick. When > it boots up, there are some startup messages, then a banner: > > THE PICK SYSTEM > PC-AT VER 2.1 of 26 Mar 87 > > Then, there is a "Logon" prompt. I have no idea what the correct > login is, and I am not the original owner (nor is the person I got the > system from). > > Is there some default login? Google didn't seem to be of much > help.... I tried obvious things like "pick", "login", "user", etc > .... Even tried mixed-case, and all uppercase.... no joy :-( > > Thanks for any help in advance.... > > Rich B. > Rich, you might try DM or SYSPROG. I don't know if it'll ask for a password, but try (again), DM or SYSPROG. g. From jnugen at one.woovis.com Wed Jun 15 19:45:21 2005 From: jnugen at one.woovis.com (James Nugen) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:45:21 -0400 Subject: Simon relay computer In-Reply-To: <009101c56e02$53ac06e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <009101c56e02$53ac06e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <42B0CBA1.6080300@one.woovis.com> Jim Beacon wrote: >A little while ago, we had a discussion about the Simon Relay Computer, and >someone was going to look into scanning the articles, did it ever happen? > > I can't find my photocopies of the Radio Electronics article. However, I did scan a chapter out of Berkeley's "Computers: Their Operation And Applications". It descibes Simon's operation and a bit on the construction. You can get it here: http://www.geocities.com/relaycomputers/Computers-S5.pdf James Nugen From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 15 19:51:58 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:51:58 -0400 Subject: NEXTstep web browsers Message-ID: <0II500DG6JPHXJL0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: NEXTstep web browsers > From: "Witchy" > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:40:47 +0100 (BST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >>>for such a modern browser. >> >> How slow is it? I Happen to run firefox on a P166 and also run it on >> a P100 and its ok, slow to start but then fine. > >The slab contains a 25mhz 68040 and mine has a staggering 8mb of RAM. I >think I'm asking too much of it :) That still has to be better than my first 386/16 machine with 4mb running Win3.1 and Netscape! >I'm working on the last versions of OmniWeb but they require me to install >many things from CD which I'm not about to do at half midnight since I've >got to be up in 5 or 6 hours......curse this 'work' thing - why can't we >be paid handsomely for preserving ye olde silicon of yore?! That would be fine with me. Then again my last job was exactly that, keeping 20 desktops (fastest was P166) happy. Allison From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 18:22:36 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:22:36 -0400 Subject: The collecting world is starting to take Notice of US In-Reply-To: <010701c5098b$0da776b0$0b01a8c0@Mike> Message-ID: If you're still actually somewhat interested in this, I'd be more then happy to provide the neccisary development skills :) On 2/2/05 8:55 PM, "Michael Nadeau" wrote: > The publisher limits the amount of material from the book I can post. The > bigger problem for me is a lack of time and Web development skills. > >> "Computer Collector Newsletter" wrote: >> >>> Mike Nadeau: it's time for an updated edition to "Collectible >>> Microcomputers" >> >> Actually, all he needs is a web site with the current prices. The >> information and pictures in the book are never going to change. >> >> Paul Pennington >> Augusta, Georgia >> >> > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 15 21:17:20 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:17:20 -0500 Subject: Ping Randy McLaughlin Message-ID: <42B0E130.1030207@mdrconsult.com> Your mailbox runneth over. Apologies to the rest of the list. Doc From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Jun 15 21:29:13 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:29:13 -0500 Subject: Austin Trip Message-ID: <01d201c5721b$3125c710$3f406b43@66067007> I will be in Austin to pick up some donations on Saturday June 18th and if any list members have any items for me still, drop me a private email. We could meet up once I finish loading the trailer. Thanks John From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Jun 15 21:30:49 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:30:49 -0500 Subject: Austin Trip Message-ID: <01f001c5721b$69da8820$3f406b43@66067007> I will be in Austin to pick up some donations on Saturday June 18th and if any list members have any items for me still, drop me a private email. We could meet up once I finish loading the trailer. Thanks John From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 15 21:58:41 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:58:41 -0400 Subject: The Dark Side! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050615225841.00a37610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I've succuumed to the Dark Side! or is it the DEC Side? I bought a PDP-8 today. Also brought home another car FULL of docs. Joe From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 22:10:08 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:10:08 -0500 Subject: The Dark Side! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050615225841.00a37610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050615225841.00a37610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 6/15/05, Joe R. wrote: > I've succuumed to the Dark Side! or is it the DEC Side? I bought a > PDP-8 today. Also brought home another car FULL of docs. Don't keep us in suspense - what model? peripherals? -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 15 22:38:00 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:38:00 -0700 Subject: The Dark Side! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050615225841.00a37610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050615225841.00a37610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > I've succuumed to the Dark Side! or is it the DEC Side? I bought a >PDP-8 today. Also brought home another car FULL of docs. Interesting, it wasn't that Programming station you posted about the other day,as that's still got over a day before the auction ends. What are all these doc's you've been getting? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Tim at rikers.org Wed Jun 15 22:47:34 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:47:34 -0500 Subject: Austin Trip In-Reply-To: <01f001c5721b$69da8820$3f406b43@66067007> References: <01f001c5721b$69da8820$3f406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <42B0F656.6090805@Rikers.org> Keys wrote: > I will be in Austin to pick up some donations on Saturday June 18th and > if any list members have any items for me still, drop me a private > email. We could meet up once I finish loading the trailer. Thanks John I don't suppose you want to drop by Dallas and pick up an HP-2020 7track drive that's still looking for a home? http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware-hp2020 I'm moving in a few weeks, and it's headed back to salvage if not claimed. -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 22:55:21 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:55:21 -0400 Subject: Ashton-Tate FRAMEWORK II Copy protection?!?! Message-ID: I've got copy of FRAMEWORK II, the original SYSTEM1 disk is damaged, and SYSTEM1(Backup) Is calling itself an unauthorized copy, even though it's the original disk? Any ideas on creating a good disk to use? From christer at a-son.net Wed Jun 15 23:46:54 2005 From: christer at a-son.net (christer at a-son.net) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:46:54 +0200 Subject: PDP system available across the pond :) In-Reply-To: <009801c571d4$80985700$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <009801c571d4$80985700$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20050616044654.GN27042@bass.mejeriet.home> On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 01:03:14PM -0500, Jay West wrote: > I received an email about a PDP system being available. This system MAY be > spoken for tentatively, but because the guy is in a hurry I wanted to get > the word out in case the current candidate doesn't want it.... System > description: > > ------------------ > The PDP-11/73 is 19" rack mounted (rack not included). It consists of the > main cabinet (CPU, RAM, I/O, RM02 100 MB disk), expansion unit with > two 300 MB Disk (at least one of them OK) and another unit with a 1/2" > tape drive. > > RAM: 512 kb (not quite sure about it, can be less), > I/O: Ethernet, 4 x rs-232, real-time clock card, GPIB controller(NI), > ADC (NI), parallel port, CAMAC interface. > > It was running RSX-11M 4.2 and DECnet (don't remember version). > We have all manuals (RSX+DECnet) and tapes with the OS software. > > Please let me know if there is anybody interested a.s.a.p. - I can't > store the system much longer. > -------------------- > > And... the system is located in Uppsala, Sweden. While the subject of price > hasn't been broached, I am under the impression it's available for the > carting away, but there may be a small fee. If anyone is interested, drop > me a line and if the primary candidate doesn't want it, I'll draw numbers > out of a hat :) This system must be picked up immediately! > > Jay > Hello, I am in Sweden, not too far from Uppsala. I'd be interested to take care of this system if nobody else picks it up. BR, Christer -- Christer O. Andersson Odensbacken From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jun 15 23:53:53 2005 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 05:53:53 +0100 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s In-Reply-To: <17072.29137.488488.980406@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <000101c5722f$64ed7480$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > I've seen some discussion recently that you could put a complete 6600 > into a high end FPGA. That would be neat. I haven't heard of that > being actually done, though. As the 6600 was entirely built with discrete components, not chips, and yet had to be physically relatively compact, I doubt if it had much more than say 20,000-25,000 gates. Nowadays that isn't anywhere near high end of the FPGA ranges. Andy From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Jun 15 13:58:37 2005 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:58:37 +0100 Subject: [GreenKeys] Rock and Roll Teletype 'experts' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B07A5D.7050407@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Said books also contain a description of a lovely electromechanical FIFO > system used to store train descriptors on the London Underground (and its > associated binary to 1-of-n decoder) ... You can see the 1-of-n decoder in the London Transport museum in Covent Gardern. At least, you could last time I went there, once again it was some years ago. Anyone been there recently? The actual decoder, BTW, is all done in massive brass, copper and Bakelite. It's a form of relay logic, I suppose. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From bv at norbionics.com Wed Jun 15 18:27:34 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:27:34 -0400 Subject: Registry for terminal DA responses? In-Reply-To: <0506130532.AA20729@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0506130532.AA20729@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <46a8e915f4038b5de4ee3f5515a9b55c@norbionics.com> On 13 Jun, 2005, at 01:32, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> Uhh, registry? Yeah, right. > > Well, the International Standard document clearly calls for one. It > says "a register to be established", though, and I guess that has never > been done. ECMA har operated the registry for character sets and control sets under these standards, so maybe they have done this as well? -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Wed Jun 15 19:21:07 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:21:07 -0400 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <200506150815.JAA14518@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200506150815.JAA14518@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: On 15 Jun, 2005, at 04:15, Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > Tim Riker said: > >> >> But existing code can be used, yes? So one could load up a 486 with a >> Linux distro including POP3 IMAP SMTP NNTP FTP IRC HTTP Gopher apps, >> and >> be done. Much easier than trying to get a tcp stack working on some >> of >> the others. > > That's too easy, I ran Linux on a 486 for years. > I also ran KA9Q tcp/ip over packet radio on a 386 with MSDOS for quite > a > while (and I think I've still got the disks somewhere), does that count > as "online"? I have an IBM PS/2 286, if I fix the power supply I can boot OS/2 1.3 on it - with TCP/IP and an ethernet adapter. I also have DB2 for it. so it could be an interesting server. Unfortunately, I am not on the same continent as it right now. But - this is all out-of-the-box standard IBM software on unmodified off-the-shelf hardware, so there is not very much challenge to it. -- -bv From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Jun 16 00:05:28 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classiccmp Retirement Message-ID: After a lot of thought, and realizing that my interests have changed over the years - I am retiring from the Computer Collecting Hobby and transferring my Stuff to someone who actually wants it... ;} My interest was generally with PDP-11 hardware - and to just 'have the machine'. I have done that. In over a year, I have not had power on to any of the machines here - nor any real desire to - and I'd like the room back, from my storage spaces, my garage, and most of two walls in my office. I will now devote more time and space to my other passtimes - my electronic music studio, my vintage Ham Radio AM station, etc. I have greatly enjoyed my time with this hobby - and have amassed literally tons of equipment and doc and media - once before I sold my entire collection, when I left for overseas work - the present 11/44 system was aquired (by remote control) while I was yet living in southern India. But now it's time to move on. I'd like to thank the many friends a friendly folk on this maillist, and I wish you all well in the future. I'll be un-subbing very shortly, but those of you who have my e-mail are invited to write any time. Thanks again to everyone here who has given so generously of their time and expertise, and I am proud to have played a very small part in preserving Legacy Computing for future generations. Not 'goodbye', but "So Long!" Cheers John From tomj at wps.com Thu Jun 16 00:14:03 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8s and -10s In-Reply-To: <000201c571bb$c57a5940$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <000201c571bb$c57a5940$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <20050615220821.Y843@localhost> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Andy Holt wrote: > * I wonder what is the largest number of concurrent "tty" users that is > reliably reported as having been run on a Unix system. I know that we > replaced one GCOS Honeywell dual-processor 66/60 with 3 Unix Gould 6000s to > manage about the same number of users (tho' they were increasing their > processing demands**) ... but the _purchase_ cost of the Goulds was less > than 3 years _maintenance_ for the Honeywell. It's a slight change of venue, but Phil Becker's TBBS (I think it was) ran 64 lines on double-digit MHz Intel processors... full utilization. Written in assembly language, his code didn't survive the historical onslaught but it was pretty spectacular at the time. Some website says there was an alleged custom 96-line version! This is 64 serial ports (in N multi-port cards) in a high-end (for mid-1980's) PC chassis, not special hardware support. I think Phil wrote space-probe software in a previous life. http://www.tbbs.org/TBBS.html From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Jun 16 00:25:33 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:25:33 -0700 Subject: Default password for Pick system on an AT? References: <000601c571ec$42a77b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42B10D4C.DB7A2327@msm.umr.edu> Jay West wrote: Jay, I'm not aware of any obvious ways to break in if the password are set. One can bring up a disk editor, and with a knowlege of the drive, can edit the sysprog or some other account passsword to have no password, then log in. The holes that were there went away in the 2.x days, long before the code upon which the R83 release was based on. This release was the descendent of Pick R80, and was a "peer" in quality and features to the Royale 3.0 releases on microdata hardware. The encryption was pretty schlocky and actually resulted in not the obfuscation that unix got by introducing doing a "crypt()" function on their password, but lost information. That meant that there were many possible "alias" passwords that could work. I doubt that a password guesser would figure it out though. With a file stats listing, or a file save tape (the stats are t-dumped at the end of a normal file save) we could possibly break in. It would take a raw disk editor tht booted from dos, such as norton old utilities, or such, and a lot of finagling to find the system dictionary and byte fiddle it. If he has the install goods on a release as old as it sounds, maybe replacing the hard drive and installing the system again would give him a tste of pick. He could install an IDE ISA adapter, and a 1gb disk for probably under $10 given prices of small drives now, and have a huge pick ssytem for his pleasure. 2.2gb was the max on later bios versions and 3.1m release. Dont know about the one he mentioned. it might be restricted to 525mb, due to int13 considerations. Jim From tomj at wps.com Thu Jun 16 00:25:30 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MITS 8800B CPU Board In-Reply-To: <001201c571e0$c3f2f620$823cd7d1@Randy2> References: <0II3003FE8TSX90Q@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <20050615122340.R820@localhost> <001201c571e0$c3f2f620$823cd7d1@Randy2> Message-ID: <20050615222223.K843@localhost> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > There were plenty of Z80 assemblers that used Intel mnemonics with Z80 > extensions and the code is correct for them. The first great Z80 assembler, > TDL is a good example. I did lots of vanilla 8080, and all my Z80 work was in TDL/Xitan syntax, which was an extention of the Intel 8080 language; I never liked Zilog mnemonics, because they implied the order code was orthogonal, when it was anything but. TDL/Xitan syntax simply extended the mess Intel made in the first place. I used Phoenix Software's PASM for PDOS, CP/M-80 and later MSDOS. Still have it! From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jun 15 19:41:53 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:41:53 +0100 Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03a4a87b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 16 Jun 2005, Witchy wrote: > > > got to be up in 5 or 6 hours......curse this 'work' thing - why can't we > > be paid handsomely for preserving ye olde silicon of yore?! > > Um, actually, you can :) "... but only if you're Sellam Ismail" :-) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Gender is irrelevant. Resistance turns me on. From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Jun 16 02:24:03 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:24:03 +0100 Subject: Dodgy IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B12913.3010406@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>>Assuming this is an electronic problem, I would first test all the >>>electrolytics on an ESR meter. High-ESR capacitors cause the most odd >>>faults on SMPUSs... >> >>I'll need to find one... > > > There have been many projects for these in the UK magazines, I would be > suprised if you couldn't find such a projected Stateside. And a google > search should turn up suppliers of ready-built instruments. I don't like to waste time with these things. If I see one dodgy electrolytic, I do the lot (at least of that size/value/voltage). Gordon. From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Jun 16 02:26:10 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:26:10 +0200 (MEST) Subject: PDP-8s and -10s In-Reply-To: <20050615220821.Y843@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Andy Holt wrote: > > > * I wonder what is the largest number of concurrent "tty" users that is > > reliably reported as having been run on a Unix system. I have seen installations with 300+ users online. Obviously, these were ran with terminal multiplexers, terminal servers and other kinds of smart front-ends, as to not kill the main system with line interrupts :) Several of these systems were HP9000 'K' class servers, running in the (centralized) city- and county governments in Holland. --f From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jun 16 03:34:49 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:34:49 +0200 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s In-Reply-To: <000101c5722f$64ed7480$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <17072.29137.488488.980406@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <000101c5722f$64ed7480$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <20050616103449.0e33cb3f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 05:53:53 +0100 "Andy Holt" wrote: [CDC6600 in a FPGA] > As the 6600 was entirely built with discrete components, not chips, > and yet had to be physically relatively compact, I doubt if it had > much more than say 20,000-25,000 gates. Nowadays that isn't anywhere > near high end of the FPGA ranges. I don't know how many gates, but the Book "Design of a Computer CDC6600" states on page 20: "the entire 6600 Computer contains approximately 400,000 transistors". It used "Direct-Coupled Transistor Logic" so there where way less then 400,000 gates. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From hachti at hachti.de Thu Jun 16 03:50:46 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:50:46 +0200 Subject: 976x heads In-Reply-To: <42AF8BF7.2020604@bitsavers.org> References: <42AF8BF7.2020604@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42B13D66.605@hachti.de> Good morning! > http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/astro-ii/P6140259.jpg > are heads for CDC 976x drives Are they suitable for the "Ampex DFR 996", too? If yes I am very interested, too :-) Regards, Philipp From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Jun 16 05:12:47 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:12:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: References: <1695.82.152.112.73.1118878847.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <54225.217.196.231.69.1118916767.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > On Thu, 16 Jun 2005, Witchy wrote: > >> got to be up in 5 or 6 hours......curse this 'work' thing - why can't we >> be paid handsomely for preserving ye olde silicon of yore?! > > Um, actually, you can :) Excellent! Why did nobody tell me this before! Oh, wait, I'm in the wrong country :o\ -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 16 07:11:46 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:11:46 -0400 Subject: The Dark Side! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050615225841.00a37610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050615225841.00a37610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050616081146.00a12b80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:10 PM 6/15/05 -0500, you wrote: >On 6/15/05, Joe R. wrote: >> I've succuumed to the Dark Side! or is it the DEC Side? I bought a >> PDP-8 today. Also brought home another car FULL of docs. > >Don't keep us in suspense - what model? peripherals? > >-ethan I don't have it in front of me and I'll probably get some of the names wrong but it's a PDP-8A with core memory (three card set), DEC RK-05 disk controller, THREE Programmer's panels, at least three regulators, four regulator control cards, a pile of operator's panels. I think the cards in it are M8300, M8316 and M8317 and an extender card and a couple others. I bought a 8A620 chassis along with Thom's complete PDP-8 field service spares kit so there's 95+% chance that everything works. There are a bunch of DSD440 drive systems around and I found some controller cards so I can hang one of them on there too if it supports it. There are also plenty of known good cartridge drives (Phoenix and others) around so I can grab one of them too if I want it but I'm not sure I do due to the size. There is also a "DECSCOPE" on a roll around stand and some other huge terminals and I can have one/all of them but again they're huge so I don't think want them. But somebody needs to come and rescue them! Oh and I picked up three orange and black DEC PT readers. I don't remember the complete model number but it was something-something 68 something. Speaking of drives, Thom says that the Phoenix and others use a SCSI inteface. Has anyone managed to put a modern small size drive on the PDP-8A? BTW there are also SHELVES full of DEC 5 1/4" hard drives and related stuff that Roger is getting. I think we FILLED a Gaylord box with them. If you guys need anything like that you NEED to go visit Astro. Everything Thom had has been stored in an air-conditioned building and is super clean. I suspect that there's a better than 98% chance that it all works. I know that he's been selling cards for over three years and has only found a couple that didn't work. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 16 07:04:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:04:02 -0400 Subject: The Dark Side! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050615225841.00a37610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050615225841.00a37610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050616080402.00a16830@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:38 PM 6/15/05 -0700, you wrote: >> I've succuumed to the Dark Side! or is it the DEC Side? I bought a >>PDP-8 today. Also brought home another car FULL of docs. > >Interesting, it wasn't that Programming station you posted about the >other day,as that's still got over a day before the auction ends. No it's not that one but it's the same type CPU. I listed the things in it that I can remember in a previous reply. > >What are all these doc's you've been getting? There WAY too many to list but I saw a lot of PDP-8A and PDP-8E docs in the pile. Right now I have two cars FILLED with docs and software. I took pictures and I'll try to post them later. Joe > > Zane > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 16 07:27:51 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:27:51 +0000 Subject: OT sortof (HUMOR) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1118924871.6671.9.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 17:00 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > From: "Jules Richardson" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 5:05 PM > > > > > > > On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 13:08 -0500, Jay West wrote: > > >> Someone passed this on to me a while back, I'm not sure if I posted it > > >> here > > >> or not yet. If I did, I apologize for the second post. > > >> > > >> When I read this, I kept thinking of all the great classiccmp list > > >> debates > > >> and just got a few good chuckles: > > >> > > >> How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light > > >> bulb? > > > > > > You should have swapped "light bulb" for "front panel lamp" :-) > > > > Shouldn't we first form a committee to determine which front panel lamp's > > are acceptable for on topic discussions? ;~} > > 1333 You didn't include your own two replies. And you spelled 1333 wrong. Or something. ;) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 16 07:42:56 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:42:56 +0000 Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators Message-ID: <1118925776.6691.25.camel@weka.localdomain> I brought one of these home from Bletchley last weekend - turns out they're quite addictive little things :-) It's a Monromatic 8N-3-213 which was marked as broken - I thought I'd see if there was anything obviously wrong inside, plus of course I was curious as to what the innards of such a machine looked like. Question - does anyone have service information for these machines (yeah, right!) or useful tips on things to check over? So far I've found an acorn jamming up the works (!!) and lots of dirt, but the mechanism's reasonably oily still and in good condition. Some of the keys seem to jam occasionally or not latch - I'm hoping that's down to dirt rather than wear (it seems to be improving the more I tap away at things to be honest). After checking that everything was free to turn without jamming I applied power... There's some earth leakage which would be useful to track down - possibly a break-down in cable insulation? I've not worked out what the large rotating thingy on the outside end of the motor shaft does yet though, as this seems to be connected to an insulated plate (and throws off quite a few sparks when running) Can't say I've ever seen such a complicated thing. Electronic circuits don't even come close in complexity :-) I don't think I'd be up for a complete stripdown and rebuild; I'd never get it all back together. ps. Is there a better place to ask than here? Not sure whether electromechanical calculators are on topic or not! pps. Anyone care to guess a date for this machine? I'd make a wild guess at mid-50's but really don't know. cheers Jules From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 08:04:05 2005 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:04:05 -0400 Subject: Default password for Pick system on an AT? In-Reply-To: <00b301c571ef$c60c6270$1502a8c0@ACER> References: <00b301c571ef$c60c6270$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: On 6/15/05, SP wrote: > In my manual of PICK it talks about the SYSPROG account. It comes by default > without password, but of course someone could put one. Sergio, and Jay, and all others, Thanks! SYSPROG did it. No password ... I think this was a "personal use only" system, so no surprise at the lack of password. I did some more targetted Google-ing and found a PDF book on Pick BASIC, so I guess I'm on my way :-) One concern is that I did NOT get any install disks or docs, and the hard drive this is on is an ancient one, making funny noises.... Hopefully it'll last a little while.... Thanks all for the help! Rich B. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 16 08:15:21 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:15:21 -0400 Subject: DEC Docs Pictures. Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050616091521.00971800@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Here are some pictures of ONE load of the DEc documents. This after I'd already taken some of them out of the car! Joe From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Thu Jun 16 08:52:58 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:52:58 -0400 Subject: Commodore CSG == ICS?? Message-ID: All: I saw a news clip this morning about IDT (a semiconductor company) buying Integrated Circuit Systems. ICS makes analog and mixed signal chips and owns Turtle Beach Sound. The thing that made me curious was that ICS was located in Norristown, PA. I thought to myself what are the chances of there being two semiconductor plants in Norristown PA. The first successor to Commodore CSG, GMT Microelectronics was also into mixed signal ASICs. ICS is located at 2435 Boulevard of the Generals, Norristown, PA 19403. The Commodore CSG was located at 950 Rittenhouse Road. So, I ran a Mapquest on both addresses and it appears they point to the same physical location in the Valley Forge Corporate Center at the corner of Rittenhouse Road and Van Buren. Hmmm... According to the public filings, ICS bought the property in 1992, which was before Commodore failed in 1994. And, it's known that GMT Microelectronics (now defunct; owned by former CSG engineers and managers) bought the old CSG plant in 1996. So, it can't be the same location...maybe there are two semicon plants next door to each other?? Interestingly the president and CEO, Hock Tan, joined ICS in 1994. ICS was incorporated in Pennsylvania in 1976. Prior to joining ICS, Hock Tan was Vice President of Finance of Commodore International, Ltd. So, I emailed a contact at the Company, but I haven't heard back yet. Does anyone on the list live near Norristown, PA? It's about a 3 hour hike from me, so it's not that easy for me to visit. Rich From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 16 09:10:23 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:10:23 -0400 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s References: <17072.29137.488488.980406@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <000101c5722f$64ed7480$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <17073.34895.664887.118298@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Andy" == Andy Holt writes: >> I've seen some discussion recently that you could put a complete >> 6600 into a high end FPGA. That would be neat. I haven't heard >> of that being actually done, though. Andy> As the 6600 was entirely built with discrete components, not Andy> chips, and yet had to be physically relatively compact, I doubt Andy> if it had much more than say 20,000-25,000 gates. Nowadays Andy> that isn't anywhere near high end of the FPGA ranges. It's quite a lot more than 20k gates. Looking at the diagrams in Thornton -- the individual logic modules are surprisingly dense. I counted 25 gates on one of the adder modules (and it's more than that if you use FPGA "gate equivalents" since many of them had more than 2 inputs). He also says that each chassiss can hold 756 logic modules (18 rows at 42 modules per row). And there are 7 logic chassis in a 6600 (8 more are memory, one is unused). So if an average module is 20 gates that gives 100k gates. Cray always was much better at densely packed logic than everyone else. Check out Thornton's book (it's on bitsavers). Chapter 3 nicely shows the packaging and how it gets so much stuff in so little space. Lastly, the conversion I was reporting involved putting the central memory on-chip too; without that, you'd either lose a lot of performance or use up a whole lot of pins for wide memory. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 16 09:17:56 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:17:56 -0400 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s References: <20050615220821.Y843@localhost> Message-ID: <17073.35348.349666.689806@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Fred" == Fred N van Kempen writes: Fred> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Andy Holt wrote: >> >> > * I wonder what is the largest number of concurrent "tty" users >> that is > reliably reported as having been run on a Unix system. Fred> I have seen installations with 300+ users online. Obviously, Fred> these were ran with terminal multiplexers, terminal servers and Fred> other kinds of smart front-ends, as to not kill the main system Fred> with line interrupts :) Not Unix but timesharing, and more demanding at that -- the University of Illinois PLATO system had 1000 terminals and most days hit its configured limit of 600 active users, in the 1970s, on a 10 MHz processor. Its modern day successor serves a lot more terminals than that; some vague memory says a million connect hours per month... paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 16 09:21:17 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:21:17 -0400 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s References: <17072.29137.488488.980406@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <000101c5722f$64ed7480$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <20050616103449.0e33cb3f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <17073.35549.592930.364923@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jochen" == Jochen Kunz writes: Jochen> On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 05:53:53 +0100 "Andy Holt" Jochen> wrote: Jochen> [CDC6600 in a FPGA] >> As the 6600 was entirely built with discrete components, not >> chips, and yet had to be physically relatively compact, I doubt if >> it had much more than say 20,000-25,000 gates. Nowadays that isn't >> anywhere near high end of the FPGA ranges. Jochen> I don't know how many gates, but the Book "Design of a Jochen> Computer CDC6600" states on page 20: "the entire 6600 Jochen> Computer contains approximately 400,000 transistors". It used Jochen> "Direct-Coupled Transistor Logic" so there where way less Jochen> then 400,000 gates. -- I missed that transistor count number. But your conclusion is incorrect; take a look at the DCTL schematics. It shows one transistor per gate input, so a 2 input NAND or NOR gate (which is what an "FPGA gate" is) is 2 transistors. That yields 200k gates, or about double what I estimated in a different way. A bunch of those transistors are in the memory circuits, so we're not that far apart. paul From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Jun 16 09:54:36 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:54:36 -0400 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s References: <000101c5722f$64ed7480$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <000e01c57283$51c5b1c0$0100a8c0@screamer> Gate count is not the issue. Routing is. The 6600 has an amazing design... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Holt" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 12:53 AM Subject: RE: PDP-8s and -10s > >> I've seen some discussion recently that you could put a complete 6600 >> into a high end FPGA. That would be neat. I haven't heard of that >> being actually done, though. > > As the 6600 was entirely built with discrete components, not chips, and > yet > had to > be physically relatively compact, I doubt if it had much more than say > 20,000-25,000 gates. > Nowadays that isn't anywhere near high end of the FPGA ranges. > > Andy > > From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 16 10:23:27 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:23:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DEC Docs Pictures. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050616091521.00971800@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050616091521.00971800@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <22516.62.177.191.201.1118935407.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Hehehe, it surely must have been a weird feeling to know that there is some stuff poking in your neck and to hold the box on the passenger seat in place when taking a corner... Nice find! > Here are some pictures of ONE load of the DEc documents. This after > I'd > already taken some of them out of the car! > > > > Joe > > From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jun 16 10:48:09 2005 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:48:09 +0100 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s In-Reply-To: <000e01c57283$51c5b1c0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <001501c5728a$cbb0c4a0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > Gate count is not the issue. Routing is. The 6600 has an > amazing design... Indeed ... weren't the 10 PPUs multiplexed through one arithmetic unit - a FPGA implementation would almost certainly find it simpler to have 10 non-multiplexed identical units (would up the gate count but simplify almost everything else). Andy From rickb at bensene.com Thu Jun 16 11:00:10 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:00:10 -0700 Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators In-Reply-To: <1118925776.6691.25.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050616155649.6F0AC97C30@pail.bensene.com> Check out Ernie Jorgensen's Office Machine Americana website. He has service and operating manuals (reproductions) for many old mechanical calculators. http://users.lewiston.com/ejorgens/office/index.htm I see that he does have some materials for the 8N-series calculators. Yes, these machines are amazingly complex. I seriously wonder if the mechanical engineering talent exists today to design such a machine from scratch. Best wishes, Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum Beavercreek, Oregon http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 5:43 AM > Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators > > > I brought one of these home from Bletchley last weekend - > turns out they're quite addictive little things :-) It's a > Monromatic 8N-3-213 which was marked as broken - I thought > I'd see if there was anything obviously wrong inside, plus of > course I was curious as to what the innards of such a machine > looked like. > > Question - does anyone have service information for these > machines (yeah, right!) or useful tips on things to check over? > > > Can't say I've ever seen such a complicated thing. Electronic > circuits don't even come close in complexity :-) I don't > think I'd be up for a complete stripdown and rebuild; I'd > never get it all back together. > From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 16 11:06:03 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:06:03 -0400 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s References: <000e01c57283$51c5b1c0$0100a8c0@screamer> <001501c5728a$cbb0c4a0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <17073.41835.515352.887419@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Andy" == Andy Holt writes: >> Gate count is not the issue. Routing is. The 6600 has an amazing >> design... Andy> Indeed ... weren't the 10 PPUs multiplexed through one Andy> arithmetic unit - a FPGA implementation would almost certainly Andy> find it simpler to have 10 non-multiplexed identical units Andy> (would up the gate count but simplify almost everything else). Actually, that's unlikely to simplify matters, since it introduces concurrency problems that don't exist in the real system. Two PPUs cannot do things "at the same time" in the real hardware... paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 16 11:11:52 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:11:52 +0000 Subject: vectrex schematics wtd... Message-ID: <1118938312.6671.42.camel@weka.localdomain> See above :) Found the darn things on the web about a year ago, didn't save them (d'oh!) and now can't find them... (the audio interference on this one in front of me doesn't go away with the audio lead disconnected, so it's not the usual problem of the audio cable picking up noise) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 16 11:25:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:25:11 +0000 Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators In-Reply-To: <20050616155649.6F0AC97C30@pail.bensene.com> References: <20050616155649.6F0AC97C30@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <1118939111.6671.55.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-16 at 09:00 -0700, Rick Bensene wrote: > Check out Ernie Jorgensen's Office Machine Americana website. He has > service and operating manuals (reproductions) for many old mechanical > calculators. http://users.lewiston.com/ejorgens/office/index.htm > I see that he does have some materials for the 8N-series calculators. Thanks - will take a look! > Yes, these machines are amazingly complex. I seriously wonder if the > mechanical engineering talent exists today to design such a machine from > scratch. Agreed. Although I suppose the theory of the individual mechanisms is documented in various places - it's the squeezing it into such a compact unit that is really stunning. Exploded to the size of a desk it'd probably make sense (with a lot of staring!) but it's such a tight mass of levers / cams / gears and springs that it's impossible to see how different bits interact. We've got a few electromechanical Monroe units - maybe as many as ten - but this was the only one of that particular type (all the rest are earlier). Regarding the rotating widget on the end of the motor, I think it's a speed governor - maybe there were problems with the motor running too fast in certain environments and so this was added to stop the problem (the only other image of 8N 213 insides I've seen on the 'net are a little different, despite both being 8N 213's) cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 16 11:21:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators In-Reply-To: <1118925776.6691.25.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I brought one of these home from Bletchley last weekend - turns out > they're quite addictive little things :-) It's a Monromatic 8N-3-213 > which was marked as broken - I thought I'd see if there was anything > obviously wrong inside, plus of course I was curious as to what the > innards of such a machine looked like. > > Question - does anyone have service information for these machines > (yeah, right!) or useful tips on things to check over? There's a guy on eBay that sells reproduction service manuals of old mechanical and electromechanical calculators. He's also got a terrific website here: http://www.mortati.com/glusker/ One of the entries so far is the Monroe IQ-213: http://www.mortati.com/glusker/elecmech/rotary/MonroeIQ213.htm Is this the same as your 8N-3-213 perhaps? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 16 11:23:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Default password for Pick system on an AT? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2005, Richard Beaudry wrote: > One concern is that I did NOT get any install disks or docs, and the > hard drive this is on is an ancient one, making funny noises.... > Hopefully it'll last a little while.... I assume it's an MFM or RLL hard drive? It'll be a little but of work, but if you have a suitable Linux box handy you should install an MFM/RLL controller and find a duplicate of the drive installed in the Pick box (that might be difficult as well) and run dd to duplicate it to the second. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From news at computercollector.com Thu Jun 16 12:14:03 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:14:03 -0400 Subject: Article in NewScientist Message-ID: <200506161712.j5GHCtZb061154@dewey.classiccmp.org> http://www.newscientist.com/channel/info-tech/mg18625046.100 ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 740 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Thu Jun 16 12:22:54 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:22:54 -0400 Subject: Commodore CSG == ICS?? Message-ID: All: OK, I heard from someone at ICS. Their building is across the street from the old CSG facility. Rich _____ From: Cini, Richard Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 9:53 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Commodore CSG == ICS?? All: I saw a news clip this morning about IDT (a semiconductor company) buying Integrated Circuit Systems. ICS makes analog and mixed signal chips and owns Turtle Beach Sound. The thing that made me curious was that ICS was located in Norristown, PA. I thought to myself what are the chances of there being two semiconductor plants in Norristown PA. The first successor to Commodore CSG, GMT Microelectronics was also into mixed signal ASICs. ICS is located at 2435 Boulevard of the Generals, Norristown, PA 19403. The Commodore CSG was located at 950 Rittenhouse Road. So, I ran a Mapquest on both addresses and it appears they point to the same physical location in the Valley Forge Corporate Center at the corner of Rittenhouse Road and Van Buren. Hmmm... According to the public filings, ICS bought the property in 1992, which was before Commodore failed in 1994. And, it's known that GMT Microelectronics (now defunct; owned by former CSG engineers and managers) bought the old CSG plant in 1996. So, it can't be the same location...maybe there are two semicon plants next door to each other?? Interestingly the president and CEO, Hock Tan, joined ICS in 1994. ICS was incorporated in Pennsylvania in 1976. Prior to joining ICS, Hock Tan was Vice President of Finance of Commodore International, Ltd. So, I emailed a contact at the Company, but I haven't heard back yet. Does anyone on the list live near Norristown, PA? It's about a 3 hour hike from me, so it's not that easy for me to visit. Rich From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Jun 15 15:08:49 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:08:49 +0100 Subject: KA9Q, was Re: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:38:59 PDT." <20050615123236.H820@localhost> Message-ID: <200506152008.VAA24161@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tom Jennings said: > On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Stan Barr wrote: > > > I also ran KA9Q tcp/ip over packet radio on a 386 with MSDOS for quite a > > while (and I think I've still got the disks somewhere), does that count > > as "online"? > > Damn right it does! We (the little garden) ran a whole internet on > 40 MHz 386 boxes with KA9Q as router for four member/customers > (four serial cards and four modems, with ethernet to a 3COM > Brouter or in some cases another KA9Q box as uplink). Around > 1992. Real TCP/IP and minimal routing, plus local (keyboard/CRT) > support for client and servers. Doesn't get more real than that! I've come over all nostalgic! I think I'll dig out a 386, find the disks, sort out my ex-taxi radio and get it going again, assuming there's still some activity and a node I can reach from here. There are disadvantges to being down at sea-level surrounded by hills :-( -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 16 14:35:22 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:35:22 -0700 Subject: 98x6 pascal system design manual Message-ID: <6e931a07030195020afc42a9d8159dff@bitsavers.org> I put this up just before I left for a few weeks, and didn't mention it on the list. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/98xx/09826-90074_Pascal2.0_SysDes_Mar83.pdf Which describes version 2.0 of the PASCAL system for the 98x6 series and has a bunch of detail on the series 200 and 300 hardware. If anyone has copies of the floppies for these systems, I'm interested in archiving them. It appears I have a partial set of basic and pascal discs. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jun 16 15:00:05 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:00:05 -0400 Subject: KA9Q, was Re: Retrochallenge, 2005 Message-ID: <0II7007UN0W1CDD0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: KA9Q, was Re: Retrochallenge, 2005 > From: Stan Barr > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:08:49 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Hi, > >Tom Jennings said: >> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Stan Barr wrote: >> >> > I also ran KA9Q tcp/ip over packet radio on a 386 with MSDOS for quite a >> > while (and I think I've still got the disks somewhere), does that count >> > as "online"? >> >> Damn right it does! We (the little garden) ran a whole internet on >> 40 MHz 386 boxes with KA9Q as router for four member/customers >> (four serial cards and four modems, with ethernet to a 3COM >> Brouter or in some cases another KA9Q box as uplink). Around >> 1992. Real TCP/IP and minimal routing, plus local (keyboard/CRT) >> support for client and servers. Doesn't get more real than that! > >I've come over all nostalgic! I think I'll dig out a 386, find the disks, >sort out my ex-taxi radio and get it going again, assuming there's still >some activity and a node I can reach from here. There are disadvantges >to being down at sea-level surrounded by hills :-( > >-- >Cheers, >Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com > >The future was never like this! > What you may find is APRS (Automatic Position Reporting System). Allison From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Jun 16 15:13:30 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:13:30 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/23+ success and stupidity Message-ID: <001101c572af$de152c60$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> I've finally managed to get the OEM 11/23+ to boot from an RL02 and run XXDP (all I could find on RL02 media at the moment). The lack of correct operation of the terminal was down to two things...... I read the DIP switches as inverse :-( and I got the RCV+ and a ground wire swapped in the terminal cable :-( Major lesson from this exercise? Don't try and read the switches or make a cable in a hurry.... Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 15:34:24 2005 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:34:24 -0400 Subject: Archiving MFM and RLL drives (Was: Re: Default password for Pick system on an AT?) In-Reply-To: References: <00b301c571ef$c60c6270$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: >> One concern is that I did NOT get any install disks or docs, and the >> hard drive this is on is an ancient one, making funny noises.... >> Hopefully it'll last a little while.... > >I assume it's an MFM or RLL hard drive? It'll be a little but of work, >but if you have a suitable Linux box handy you should install an MFM/RLL >controller and find a duplicate of the drive installed in the Pick box >(that might be difficult as well) and run dd to duplicate it to the >second. It is either an MFM or RLL drive. I haven't pulled the drive or cleaned the dust to verify which. According to the sticker someone taped in to the front of the drive, it is a 15MB (FULL height, 5.25"), type 2 in the AT setup (I've no idea what cyls/heads/secs that refers to, so I'll have to pull the drive and hope it is labeled). Heresy, I know, but I don't have a Linux box :-)... Also, please don't tell me "you ought to set one up" ... I don't wish to fan advocacy flames, so let's just drop it there. Would something like Ghost work? I've never tried it on small, old drives. I do have a DOS box (p-133), so if there's some DOS/WIN 3.1 utility to do the same thing, I could use that .... I'll see if I can dig anything up on my end, and I might just give Ghost a try ... meantime, if anyone knows of another DOS/WIN31 way to make a drive image of an old MFM/RLL drive, I'm all ears. Rich B. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 16 15:37:50 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:37:50 +0000 Subject: vectrex schematics wtd... In-Reply-To: <1118938312.6671.42.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1118938312.6671.42.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1118954270.6691.57.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-16 at 16:11 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > See above :) Found the darn things on the web about a year ago, didn't > save them (d'oh!) and now can't find them... Hmm,definitely not the site I saw a year or so ago, but I found the service manual at: http://www.eserviceinfo.com ... which actually looks like quite a useful site (I'm surprised that it appears to be free given that they look to have some useful stuff and their bandwidth requirements must be quite large) cheers Jules From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jun 16 15:47:30 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:47:30 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <42A874CE.5020806@atarimuseum.com> References: <42A874CE.5020806@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <42B1E562.3070204@oldskool.org> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Wow, after watching the BBS Documentary and now this talk of flame wars, > hey lets get a good old fashion Atari 800 vs. C64 flame war going! ;-) Nah, Atari ST vs. Amiga :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 15:50:55 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:50:55 -0500 Subject: Apple Goes Intel... In-Reply-To: <42B1E562.3070204@oldskool.org> References: <42A874CE.5020806@atarimuseum.com> <42B1E562.3070204@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 6/16/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Wow, after watching the BBS Documentary and now this talk of flame wars, > > hey lets get a good old fashion Atari 800 vs. C64 flame war going! ;-) > > Nah, Atari ST vs. Amiga :-) Heh... lived through both of those (on the Commodore shore...) It was like the Twilight Zone when Tramiel and sons switched. -ethan From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jun 16 15:52:45 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:52:45 -0500 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <42A74B33.2020902@oldskool.org> References: <200506021741.j52HeuXW027562@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <42A74B33.2020902@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <42B1E69D.2030701@oldskool.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > Bj?rn Vermo wrote: > >> In order to avoid technical lock-in today, my preferred document >> format is XML with CSS styling, either with an XHTML DTD or, ideally, >> a DTD tailored to the usage area and reflected by the stylesheets. >> Bitmap images are ideally PNGs, photographs JPEG 2000, and vector >> images are SVG. There exists a plethora of free tools to work with, >> transform and generate this kind of document. > > Please name some. Still waiting, Bj?rn... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Jun 16 15:52:49 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:52:49 -0500 Subject: Archiving MFM and RLL drives (Was: Re: Default password for Picksystem on an AT?) References: <00b301c571ef$c60c6270$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <001301c572b5$5ee12e70$aa3dd7d1@Randy2> From: "Richard Beaudry" Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 3:34 PM >>> One concern is that I did NOT get any install disks or docs, and the >>> hard drive this is on is an ancient one, making funny noises.... >>> Hopefully it'll last a little while.... >> >>I assume it's an MFM or RLL hard drive? It'll be a little but of work, >>but if you have a suitable Linux box handy you should install an MFM/RLL >>controller and find a duplicate of the drive installed in the Pick box >>(that might be difficult as well) and run dd to duplicate it to the >>second. > > It is either an MFM or RLL drive. I haven't pulled the drive or > cleaned the dust to verify which. According to the sticker someone > taped in to the front of the drive, it is a 15MB (FULL height, 5.25"), > type 2 in the AT setup (I've no idea what cyls/heads/secs that refers > to, so I'll have to pull the drive and hope it is labeled). > > Heresy, I know, but I don't have a Linux box :-)... Also, please > don't tell me "you ought to set one up" ... I don't wish to fan > advocacy flames, so let's just drop it there. > > Would something like Ghost work? I've never tried it on small, old > drives. > > I do have a DOS box (p-133), so if there's some DOS/WIN 3.1 utility to > do the same thing, I could use that .... > > I'll see if I can dig anything up on my end, and I might just give > Ghost a try ... meantime, if anyone knows of another DOS/WIN31 way to > make a drive image of an old MFM/RLL drive, I'm all ears. > > Rich B. Linux may be easier, luckily there is no need to "set one up". Get knoppix it runs from a CD: http://www.linuxiso.org/ I carry a CD around just so when I'm at a clients I have a known set of tools handy. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 16 16:02:42 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:02:42 -0500 Subject: test - please ignore Message-ID: <000701c572b6$bd38ae70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I've gone and made some changes to the classiccmp mail routing.... it SHOULD have been transparent. Hopefully it was, but I'm monitoring it. Jay From spedraja at ono.com Thu Jun 16 16:06:11 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:06:11 +0200 Subject: DEC Docs Pictures. References: <3.0.6.32.20050616091521.00971800@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <006301c572b7$39a651b0$1502a8c0@ACER> > Here are some pictures of ONE load of the DEc documents. > This after I'd already taken some of them out of the car! > > Mmmm.... Definitely, we are some kind of addicted. I ask myself too what could I think if I would be a policeman and stopped your car for any reason. If something of these is scanneable or ready to backup it would be agreed. Regards Sergio From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jun 16 16:08:19 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:08:19 -0500 Subject: Ashton-Tate FRAMEWORK II Copy protection?!?! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B1EA43.80701@oldskool.org> Gary Sparkes wrote: > I've got copy of FRAMEWORK II, the original SYSTEM1 disk is > damaged, and SYSTEM1(Backup) Is calling itself an unauthorized > copy, even though it's the original disk? > > Any ideas on creating a good disk to use? IIRC, copy-protection for Lotus, Ashton-Tate, and others was a common system like Prolok or SUPERLok. Google around for a (complete) copy of Quaid's CopyWrite package, or a version of CopyIIPC... they come with memory-resident programs that fool the copy protection. You can also search for a program called Business Neverlock (also by Quaid) that claimed to patch business programs to not require the key disk, but I've never seen that program "in the wild", so to speak. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 16 16:14:33 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:14:33 -0500 Subject: test - please ignore References: <000701c572b6$bd38ae70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <002901c572b8$648a47a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> please ignore this too, testing replies. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 4:02 PM Subject: test - please ignore > I've gone and made some changes to the classiccmp mail routing.... it > SHOULD have been transparent. Hopefully it was, but I'm monitoring it. > > Jay > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 16 16:29:55 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:29:55 -0500 Subject: another test - please ignore again Message-ID: <003801c572ba$8a101340$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> :) From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jun 16 16:34:38 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:34:38 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B1F06E.3000005@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >>That's too easy, I ran Linux on a 486 for years. > > I still am... Aha! So you *do* have the ability to create PDFs! (ducking) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 00:51:23 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microlog 8-bit ISA 8" floppy controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050616055123.49146.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> > 3) is anyone else interested in the port if I do it? Interested. If you have the source code (assembler?) why not post it to the group, or e-mail me it :) __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ From ibase at bbs.infima.cz Thu Jun 16 03:50:52 2005 From: ibase at bbs.infima.cz (Michael Eckstein) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:50:52 +0200 Subject: HP 9805A Message-ID: <42B13D6C.6040004@bbs.infima.cz> Hello Joe, you have selled a.o. the HP 9805 calculator on eBay on January 2003, please could you write me the achieved price of HP 9805 at eBay? I have the same HP and I want to sell it on eBay in the near future too. Thank you very much for your help in advance. Best regards, Michael Joe cctech at classiccmp.org wrote: >> FYI: I just threw some stuff on E-bay including a HP 9805 Statistics calculator, two volumes of model 33 Teletype manuals, a Teletype tool, a programmer's panel and an Apple computer Module ID book. The auctions are for 5 days only so don't delay. I will be adding more tomorrow. From phillipmilks at netzero.com Thu Jun 16 10:07:36 2005 From: phillipmilks at netzero.com (phillipmilks at netzero.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:07:36 GMT Subject: Monochrome (MGA) monitor needed Message-ID: <20050616.080741.19388.118394@webmail13.nyc.untd.com> An NPO that I know of in Indianapolis is in need of a working monitor. Is there anyone in the area that can supply one ? From boblafleur at comcast.net Thu Jun 16 13:51:46 2005 From: boblafleur at comcast.net (Bob Lafleur) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:51:46 -0400 Subject: KA9Q, was Re: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <200506152008.VAA24161@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <200506161847.j5GIldlc061807@dewey.classiccmp.org> I've still got all my KA9Q software and config files (well, I ran the WZ2B variant) on a spinning hard drive in one of my PC's, but I don't have any of the radio gear connected anymore. Just as recently as a few months ago I recall doing an nslookup and noticing that my old "domain" (nq1c.ampr.org) was still showing in the internet DNS, although I was not able to find any functional routes to any .ampr.org addresses. I just looked again, and nq1c.ampr.org seems to no longer resolve, but ampr.org still does. - Bob From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jun 16 16:46:43 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:46:43 -0500 Subject: how to image pre dos 2.0 disks (?) In-Reply-To: <20050613035059.97966.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050613035059.97966.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42B1F343.8060904@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: > Winimage has beem doing a pretty good job until now, > but it chokes on some really early stuff. It also > doesnt like some diagnostic programs, that are not > recognized as FAT. And you also cant, to my knowledge > dump an image to a disk differing from the original. > Any suggestions? Search for a program called Disk eXpress by Albert J. Shan. I'm having trouble finding it, but it's got to be on a shareware site out there somewhere... It was a very simple, easy program to dump a diskette to an image file, and that file could be restored to larger-sized floppies. I thought teledisk could do this as well but I could be wrong. And there are undoubtedly other utilities that should be able to do this... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 16 16:54:58 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:54:58 +0000 Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1118958898.6691.74.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-16 at 09:21 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 16 Jun 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > There's a guy on eBay that sells reproduction service manuals of old > mechanical and electromechanical calculators. > > He's also got a terrific website here: > > http://www.mortati.com/glusker/ Thanks - that looks like a nice site! We've got 'user' manuals for some of our other Monroe machinces (which thinking about it are from the days where perhaps they do give instructions for critical oil points and other useful info). Unfortunately I haven't found anything for this particular Monroe yet... > One of the entries so far is the Monroe IQ-213: > > http://www.mortati.com/glusker/elecmech/rotary/MonroeIQ213.htm > > Is this the same as your 8N-3-213 perhaps? Externally it looks similiar - that one appears to be a slightly later model (the one I have here has a few less buttons across the bottom). I expect the 'core' is the same on both machines though. The carriage certainly looks identical. I think I'll drop the guy an email and see if he has any tips for cleaning the mechanism (such as just leaving the whole mechanical bit in an oil bath for a few weeks or something!). For normal mechanical things I completely dismantle them, clean / fix individual parts, then reassemble - but this thing's really a bit *too* complicated for that approach (without me having experience of working on simpler versions of such machines first anyway) cheers Jules From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Thu Jun 16 18:37:01 2005 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:37:01 -0400 Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: <49594.82.152.112.73.1118864328.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <49594.82.152.112.73.1118864328.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <66CEC93D-A93F-4E8A-8EBA-1A6F2A6BF335@mind-to-mind.com> On Jun 15, 2005, at 3:38 PM, Witchy wrote: > This brings to mind the question of NEXTstep browsers, and the > realisation > that there's probably only one - OmniWeb, so I've downloaded 2.7b3 but > does anyone know if there are any other browsers or later versions of > OmniWeb? Not later... but you could always get what TimBL developed... From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 16 18:38:04 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:38:04 -0500 Subject: if there's list problems.... Message-ID: <002d01c572cc$71bd3f90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> So far the changes I made to mail routing seem to be working perfectly. However, if anyone notices that they suddenly can't post to the list any longer, please email me at jwest at ezwind.net instead of my usual address. This is temporary :) Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 16 18:29:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:29:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: [GreenKeys] Rock and Roll Teletype 'experts' In-Reply-To: <42B07A5D.7050407@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Jun 15, 5 07:58:37 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Said books also contain a description of a lovely electromechanical FIFO > > system used to store train descriptors on the London Underground (and its > > associated binary to 1-of-n decoder) ... > > You can see the 1-of-n decoder in the London Transport museum > in Covent Gardern. At least, you could last time I went there, > once again it was some years ago. Anyone been there recently? As is the FIFO (again, it was there when I went, which was some years ago). They looked to be complete, and wired up, but alas they were not operational when I visited the museum. Since, unlike the Science Museum, the London Transport Museum charges an entrance fee, I've not been recently. > > The actual decoder, BTW, is all done in massive brass, copper and > Bakelite. It's a form of relay logic, I suppose. Not Bakelite (it's earlier than that). I thought the base looked to be marble, or comething like that. And yes, it's the standard relay-logic decoder tree. I have the schematics, etc, in that book I mentioned. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 16 18:35:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:35:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: <03a4a87b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 16, 5 01:41:53 am Message-ID: > > > got to be up in 5 or 6 hours......curse this 'work' thing - why can't we > > > be paid handsomely for preserving ye olde silicon of yore?! > > > > Um, actually, you can :) > > "... but only if you're Sellam Ismail" :-) But I suspect that if I changed my name by deed poll to 'Sellam Ismail', it wouldn't help. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 16 18:40:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:40:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dodgy IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: <42B12913.3010406@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jun 16, 5 08:24:03 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > >>>Assuming this is an electronic problem, I would first test all the > >>>electrolytics on an ESR meter. High-ESR capacitors cause the most odd > >>>faults on SMPUSs... > >> > >>I'll need to find one... > > > > > > There have been many projects for these in the UK magazines, I would be > > suprised if you couldn't find such a projected Stateside. And a google > > search should turn up suppliers of ready-built instruments. > > I don't like to waste time with these things. If I see one dodgy > electrolytic, I do the lot (at least of that size/value/voltage). And if some 'genius' has used one as the timing capacitor on a one-shot, you've probably just introduced a fault by replacing it (if the original one was still OK)... Not a problem in most PSUs, I'll admit. You still need the ESR meter to prove you had a capacitor problem in the first place, of course. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 16 18:54:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:54:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: vectrex schematics wtd... In-Reply-To: <1118938312.6671.42.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 16, 5 04:11:52 pm Message-ID: > > > See above :) Found the darn things on the web about a year ago, didn't > save them (d'oh!) and now can't find them... I got them off the net years ago (before there was a web...), but from what I remember the quality was very poor, and it was almost easier to manage without them... > > (the audio interference on this one in front of me doesn't go away with > the audio lead disconnected, so it's not the usual problem of the audio > cable picking up noise) Well, if the noise is not getting in via the audio input cable, the next obvious plavce for it to get into the amplifer is via the power lines. I would check the decoupling capacitors... Take caee working ona Vectrex. The deflection amplifier chip (LM379) is almost pure unobtainium, and there is no simple substitute. There are also high voltages on the CRT, of course, but replacement hackers are a lot easier to find than LM379s ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 16 18:58:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:58:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: 98x6 pascal system design manual In-Reply-To: <6e931a07030195020afc42a9d8159dff@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jun 16, 5 12:35:22 pm Message-ID: > If anyone has copies of the floppies for these systems, I'm interested > in > archiving them. It appears I have a partial set of basic and pascal > discs. \begin{aol} Me Too \end{aol} More seriously, I picked up an HP9836 many years ago. It seems to power up correctly, and then asks for a system disk (I don't have any of ROM boards that I believe existed). I don't have any disks for it, though. It's sitting in the corner of my workshop.... If anyone has the disks for this series of machines, I'd be interested in working copies too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 16 19:04:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:04:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <42B1F06E.3000005@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jun 16, 5 04:34:38 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >>That's too easy, I ran Linux on a 486 for years. > > > > I still am... > > Aha! So you *do* have the ability to create PDFs! Create, or read? This linux box has a text-only display, so I can't display pdfs on-screen. In theory I could run ghostscript to print them on my LW2 (or can, once I've repaired it...[1]), but I don't have ghostscript installed (and I am termianly short of disk space), and transfering full-page bitmaps to said printer takes many minutes... As I said before, for many manuals, it would actually take me less time to rediscover the info from the hardware than to print the darn thing. [1] I know the fault. It's a dried-up capacitor on the protection PCB. I almost certainly have a replacement in the junk box. I just need to get a round tuit... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 16 18:34:30 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:34:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <004601c5720b$52aec7c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jun 15, 5 07:35:40 pm Message-ID: > > You wrote.... > > AFAIK no ISP uses vintage hardware. So you're going to be connecting to > > some modern machine. > > Well, I'm an ISP. Let's see if I can figure out how to get an IP stack on an > HP2100, SLIP... attach it to a modem bank via multiple baci boards... hack > up an ethernet board... and voila! Instant vintage dialup server :) If that's 'instant', you're a darn sight better hacker than I am.... > > Actually, I have thought about moving a machine or two into the datacenter, > but then it'd be too far to play with, and run my already huge power bills > through the ceiling! When I was at Bristol University, I needed a larger filespace quota on the departmental VAX cluster. I said to the system manage (OK, rather more politley than this, but you will get the idea) that he could either increase said quota, or I'd bring a couple of RL02s and a Q-bus controller in and stick said controller into one of the microVAXen. Needless to say he increased the quota... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 16 18:49:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:49:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators In-Reply-To: <1118925776.6691.25.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 16, 5 12:42:56 pm Message-ID: > > > I brought one of these home from Bletchley last weekend - turns out > they're quite addictive little things :-) It's a Monromatic 8N-3-213 > which was marked as broken - I thought I'd see if there was anything > obviously wrong inside, plus of course I was curious as to what the > innards of such a machine looked like. > > Question - does anyone have service information for these machines > (yeah, right!) or useful tips on things to check over? No psecific service information, but my first comment is that 99% of problems with mechanical calculators are due to gummy lubricants. Worn or broken parts are uncommon. Serondly, do not spray it with Wanton Destruction 40, or anything else for that matter. You will do a lot more harm than good... > > So far I've found an acorn jamming up the works (!!) and lots of dirt, An Acorn... What, a System 1, or an Atom, or a Beeb or an Arch, or what... (sorry, couldn't resist...) > but the mechanism's reasonably oily still and in good condition. Some of > the keys seem to jam occasionally or not latch - I'm hoping that's down > to dirt rather than wear (it seems to be improving the more I tap away > at things to be honest). > > After checking that everything was free to turn without jamming I > applied power... > > There's some earth leakage which would be useful to track down - > possibly a break-down in cable insulation? I've not worked out what the Most of the time, that's due to tracking across the impregnated fibre insulators used in things like the automatic on/off swtich. > large rotating thingy on the outside end of the motor shaft does yet > though, as this seems to be connected to an insulated plate (and throws > off quite a few sparks when running) Almost certainly a governor. Do not be tempted to bypass it, many of these machines used series wound motors which will get up to a ridiculous speed if not controlled and do considerable damage. Trakcing on the insulators in the governor is another source of earth leakage. You generally have to disconnsect the wiring between the power connector, motor, automatic switch anf governor and test each bit separately with a megger (how do you know there is a leak, BTW?). Hopefully you can repalce the offending insulator. If not, you could run the machine off a good isolating transformer, and make sure the chassis is properly earthed. > > Can't say I've ever seen such a complicated thing. Electronic circuits > don't even come close in complexity :-) I don't think I'd be up for a I've not seen this one, but from the mechanical calculators I have been inside, there's typically the same mechanism repeated times (digit entry, accumulator register, etc, and some control linkages, which are typically outside the side frames. There are a lot of parts, but the complexity is not that high. > complete stripdown and rebuild; I'd never get it all back together. > > ps. Is there a better place to ask than here? Not sure whether > electromechanical calculators are on topic or not! > > pps. Anyone care to guess a date for this machine? I'd make a wild guess > at mid-50's but really don't know. Sounds about right. Maybe a little later (early 1960s). -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 16 19:22:05 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:22:05 -0500 Subject: Default password for Pick system on an AT? References: <00b301c571ef$c60c6270$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <001201c572d2$97d0a860$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote... > I did some more targetted Google-ing and found a PDF book on Pick > BASIC, so I guess I'm on my way :-) The real beauty of Pick BASIC (aside from all the statement amenities & variable autotyping & such)... is Dynamic Arrays & fileIO. Dynamic arrays are actually how the data is stored on disc, give or take some link fields. > One concern is that I did NOT get any install disks or docs, and the > hard drive this is on is an ancient one, making funny noises.... > Hopefully it'll last a little while.... FYI - Pick/AT uses a totally nonstandard disk format. However, at least it obeys FDISK rules and lives in a partition. A replacement drive would have to be identical, and your copy would have to be "bit level", nothing that tries to understand a "filesystem". Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 16 19:41:41 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:41:41 -0500 Subject: Default password for Pick system on an AT? References: <000601c571ec$42a77b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42B10D4C.DB7A2327@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <003c01c572d5$54793fc0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote... > I'm not aware of any obvious ways to break in if the password are set. > One can > bring up a disk editor, and with a knowlege of the drive, can edit the > sysprog > or some other account passsword to have no password, then log in. One can usually - even on much more recent machines, log in to things like ERRMSG, just to break to the debugger. Once you get the debugger, you can do magic. As an alternative, yes, you can boot off a floppy with a disk editor and patch the system file that way too. He could also try some of the 3rd party accounts like "PROF" or "TUTOR" or "ACCU-PLOT". > The holes that were there went away in the 2.x days, long before the code > upon > which the R83 release was based on. This release was the descendent of > Pick > R80, and was a "peer" in quality and features to the Royale 3.0 releases > on > microdata hardware. I didn't think ANY of the reality releases hashed passwords... at least on the pre-spirit machines. I could very well be wrong. I think Pick R83 did though. > With a file stats listing, or a file save tape (the stats are t-dumped at > the > end of a normal file save) we could possibly break in. It would take a > raw > disk editor tht booted from dos, such as norton old utilities, or such, > and a > lot of finagling to find the system dictionary and byte fiddle it. With a disk editor you don't need the filestats or anything... you can search for SYSPROG:@AM:SYS2 and the like. But if you want to use the break key to get to the debugger, a filesave listing would be handy to get the system base. However, you CAN get the system base arithmetically in the absence of filestats. > If he has the install goods on a release as old as it sounds, maybe > replacing > the hard drive and installing the system again would give him a tste of > pick. Unfortunately, the version of Pick he has used laserburns on a floppy. Ick. *I'M* not capable of getting around that, probably some here are. I don't know x86 code well at all. I *DO* have an original full install set of Pick R83/XT though, but I don't think that will work on an AT. Someone on the list pointed me to an opensource Pick-alike... I believe it ran on BSD/Linux. Nifty! Now, of all the Pickheads here, who remembers the "4gl" called Wizard? The code that thing generated was incredibly incredibly NASTY! Someday, I really *MUST* add a PR1ME to my collection. I really miss PRIMOS and PRIME INFORMATION! I have NEVER found one in the wild though :\ Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 16 19:44:08 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:44:08 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp Retirement References: Message-ID: <005701c572d5$ac6778f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Mr. Lawson, you will be sorely missed. Your contributions here have always been great. Of course, I'll miss the time you spent gating cctalk to cctech (and filtering) that you did out of the kindness of your heart. My most sincere thanks. Everyone on the list owes you kudos for helping out in that way. Jay West From rcini at optonline.net Thu Jun 16 20:31:54 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:31:54 -0400 Subject: Altair Fan Message-ID: <002b01c572dc$58b9cb70$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: OK, this is a stupid question. I'm fixing up the 8800b that I got recently and I removed the fan to perform some work on the power supply. Unfortunately I didn't mark which direction the air blows. Can someone tell me if it blows inward or outward? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Jun 16 20:51:21 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:51:21 -0700 Subject: how to image pre dos 2.0 disks (?) In-Reply-To: <42B1F343.8060904@oldskool.org> References: <20050613035059.97966.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> <42B1F343.8060904@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200506161851210330.6326C496@192.168.42.129> Hi, Jim, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 16-Jun-05 at 16:46 Jim Leonard wrote: >Search for a program called Disk eXpress by Albert J. Shan. I'm having >trouble finding it, but it's got to be on a shareware site out there somewhere... >It was a very simple, easy program to dump a diskette to an image file, and >that file could be restored to larger-sized floppies. > >I thought teledisk could do this as well but I could be wrong. And there >are undoubtedly other utilities that should be able to do this... Teledisk can indeed restore to media other than that used to make the image. As for Windows-based utilities, try Floppy Image Creator, ver. 1.41, by John Maher. It's freeware. You can also try FloppyBase, ver. 1.6b, from Hammer Software. It's not free (29.95 or some such), but it does seem to do pretty well. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From gtoal at gtoal.com Thu Jun 16 21:29:36 2005 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:29:36 -0500 Subject: Is this an RK05? Can anyone read it? Message-ID: <42B23590.mailDUZ11BX79@gtoal.com> There was once a student project to write a multi-tasking operating system for the PDP11. Written at Groeningen University in the Netherlands under the supervision of professor Harry Whitfield, this O/S had more than a passing resemblance to the classic mainframe O/S, EMAS, from Edinburgh. The O/S was thought to be lost apart from small excerpts that were documented in the project report (online at: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/guts/ ) but a disk pack has turned up which has a fair chance of containing a working binary and sources. We think this is an RK05 pack for a PDP11: http://www.gtoal.com/images/rk05.JPG Can anyone confirm that? And is there anyone in the UK who could read the drive? It may be in a format that is backwards compatible with one of the DEC O/Ses, or it may be unreadable at the FS level, just readable at the block level. (Which shouldn't be an insurmountable problem, given the scan of the documentation; also a disk image should pop right in to one of Bob Supnik's emulators.) If someone trustworthy in the UK would like to have a go at reading this drive, the keeper of the disk pack (in Edinburgh, Scotland) will mail it to you. It would have to be someone who I recognise from the list or who would be vouched for by a list regular. As you can imagine we're a little squirrely about sending the only copy to a stranger, especially in view of an unfortunate experience we had last year. This drive probably has not been spun up since 1978 or 79. If anyone would like to help, please email me at gtoal at gtoal.com Thanks Graham From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 16 21:55:44 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:55:44 -0400 Subject: DEC Docs Pictures. In-Reply-To: <22516.62.177.191.201.1118935407.squirrel@62.177.191.201> References: <3.0.6.32.20050616091521.00971800@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050616091521.00971800@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050616225544.0098b100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> It was a nuisance but I didn't mind a bit! :-) BTW that bag that was on top of the stack in the passenger seat and that kept falling on me contains a DEC printing terminal called a "Counselor" or some such. Do you know anything about it? Joe At 05:23 PM 6/16/05 +0200, Fred wrote: > >Hehehe, it surely must have been a weird feeling to know that there >is some stuff poking in your neck and to hold the box on the passenger >seat in place when taking a corner... > >Nice find! > > >> Here are some pictures of ONE load of the DEc documents. This after >> I'd >> already taken some of them out of the car! >> >> >> >> Joe >> >> > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 16 22:01:14 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:01:14 -0400 Subject: 98x6 pascal system design manual In-Reply-To: References: <6e931a07030195020afc42a9d8159dff@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050616230114.009bc740@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:58 AM 6/17/05 +0100, you wrote: >> If anyone has copies of the floppies for these systems, I'm interested >> in >> archiving them. It appears I have a partial set of basic and pascal >> discs. > >\begin{aol} >Me Too >\end{aol} > >More seriously, I picked up an HP9836 many years ago. It seems to power >up correctly, and then asks for a system disk (I don't have any of ROM >boards that I believe existed). The ROM boards do exist. I have one or two with HPL and five or six with BASIC. I learned a long time ago to look at the boards in EVERY junk/scrap/surplus computer that I see. I've found a LOT of interesting boards in computers that I would have ignored otherwise. Joe I don't have any disks for it, though. > >It's sitting in the corner of my workshop.... If anyone has the disks for >this series of machines, I'd be interested in working copies too. > >-tony > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 16 22:09:12 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:09:12 -0400 Subject: 98x6 pascal system design manual In-Reply-To: <6e931a07030195020afc42a9d8159dff@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050616230912.009be6c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have several sets of original floppy disks. And man did I have to do a LOT of searching to find them!!! I'm serious, it took me about ten years of constantly serching to find these. You've probably already figured out that a useable operating system is too large to fit on one floppy disk. I've had useable systems on hard drives for a long time but the OS was too large to copy to a floppy drive so it was impossible to distribute except by copying to another hard drive and then shipping the compete hard drive. Joe At 12:35 PM 6/16/05 -0700, you wrote: >I put this up just before I left for a few weeks, and didn't mention it >on the list. > >http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/98xx/09826-90074_Pascal2.0_SysDes_Mar83.pdf > >Which describes version 2.0 of the PASCAL system for the 98x6 series and >has a bunch of detail on the series 200 and 300 hardware. > >If anyone has copies of the floppies for these systems, I'm interested >in >archiving them. It appears I have a partial set of basic and pascal >discs. > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 16 22:11:49 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:11:49 -0400 Subject: Monochrome (MGA) monitor needed In-Reply-To: <20050616.080741.19388.118394@webmail13.nyc.untd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050616231149.009bc430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> What the heck is a NPO and why should I give them my only MGA monitor? Joe At 03:07 PM 6/16/05 +0000, you wrote: > >An NPO that I know of in Indianapolis is in need of a working monitor. Is there anyone in the area that can supply one ? > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 16 22:25:03 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:25:03 -0500 Subject: Monochrome (MGA) monitor needed References: <3.0.6.32.20050616231149.009bc430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <02aa01c572ec$27036770$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> None Profit Organization - read: Charitable Contribution Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 10:11 PM Subject: Re: Monochrome (MGA) monitor needed > What the heck is a NPO and why should I give them my only MGA monitor? > > Joe > > At 03:07 PM 6/16/05 +0000, you wrote: >> >>An NPO that I know of in Indianapolis is in need of a working monitor. Is > there anyone in the area that can supply one ? >> > > From gtoal at gtoal.com Thu Jun 16 22:10:48 2005 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:10:48 -0500 Subject: Is this an RK05? Can anyone read it? In-Reply-To: <42B23590.mailDUZ11BX79@gtoal.com> References: <42B23590.mailDUZ11BX79@gtoal.com> Message-ID: <42B23F38.mailIYW11LH6R@gtoal.com> > And is there anyone in the UK who could read the drive? It may be > in a format that is backwards compatible with one of the DEC O/Ses, > or it may be unreadable at the FS level, just readable at the > block level. (Which shouldn't be an insurmountable problem, given > the scan of the documentation; also a disk image should pop right > in to one of Bob Supnik's emulators.) Found it!: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/guts/orange/guts021.html It's RT11 compatible. G From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 16 22:53:10 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 98x6 pascal system design manual Message-ID: <20050617035310.32DC570C9D28@bitsavers.org> > I have several sets of original floppy disks. I would like to borrow these and some HPL/Basic et. al. prom sets from you once I get all of the other stuff that I owe you back to you. From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Thu Jun 16 23:10:21 2005 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (GManuel (GMC)) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:10:21 -0400 Subject: Commodore CSG == ICS?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I saw a news clip this morning about IDT (a semiconductor > company) buying Integrated Circuit Systems. ICS makes analog and mixed > signal chips and owns Turtle Beach Sound. The thing that made me > curious was > that ICS was located in Norristown, PA. I thought to myself what are the > chances of there being two semiconductor plants in Norristown PA. > The first > successor to Commodore CSG, GMT Microelectronics was also into > mixed signal > ASICs. > > > > ICS is located at 2435 Boulevard of the Generals, > Norristown, PA > 19403. The Commodore CSG was located at 950 Rittenhouse Road. So, I ran a > Mapquest on both addresses and it appears they point to the same physical > location in the Valley Forge Corporate Center at the corner of Rittenhouse > Road and Van Buren. Hmmm... > > > > According to the public filings, ICS bought the property in > 1992, which was before Commodore failed in 1994. And, it's known that GMT > Microelectronics (now defunct; owned by former CSG engineers and managers) > bought the old CSG plant in 1996. So, it can't be the same > location...maybe > there are two semicon plants next door to each other?? > > > > Interestingly the president and CEO, Hock Tan, joined ICS in > 1994. ICS was incorporated in Pennsylvania in 1976. Prior to joining ICS, > Hock Tan was Vice President of Finance of Commodore International, Ltd. > > > > So, I emailed a contact at the Company, but I haven't > heard back > yet. Does anyone on the list live near Norristown, PA? It's about a 3 hour > hike from me, so it's not that easy for me to visit. > > > > Rich I live about 30-45 mins from there. I can take a ride by there Monday or Tuesday if you want. I am a bit curious about this myself now too. Greg Manuel ==> See forgotten passwords befind **** asterisks: www.SeePassword.com From appleto at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 23:33:54 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:33:54 -0400 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <42B1F06E.3000005@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 6/16/05, Tony Duell wrote: > This linux box has a text-only display, so I can't display pdfs on-screen. In theory I could run ghostscript to print them on my LW2 xpdf claims to have a utility to convert pdf to plain text. If memory serves me correctly, almost all of the dependencies disappear if you build it from source without X being present on your system. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jun 16 23:43:06 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:43:06 -0500 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <42B1F06E.3000005@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200506162343.06210.pat@computer-refuge.org> Ronald Wayne declared on Thursday 16 June 2005 11:33 pm: > On 6/16/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > This linux box has a text-only display, so I can't display pdfs > > on-screen. In theory I could run ghostscript to print them on my LW2 > > xpdf claims to have a utility to convert pdf to plain text. If memory > serves me correctly, almost all of the dependencies disappear if you > build it from source without X being present on your system. Considering that most of the PDF's that Tony would probably be interested in (stuff on bitsavers, and schematics) aren't likely to have much useful text content, that's probably not too helpful. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 17 00:38:24 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Funny CC coincidence on SNL Message-ID: I was watching the Best of Eddie Murphy on Saturday Night Live. There was a segment in which Eddie was playing the Tooth Fairy being interviewed on a fictional interview show about career choices. The wall in the background was a blow-up of the want ads section of the newspaper. When the camera was focused on Eddie, that angle made the following ad visible in the background: DATA ENTRY CLERKS IBM System 34; 5251 display station operator 9 to 5:30 & 12 to 8:30 shifts available Midtown. Salary open :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 17 00:42:32 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archiving MFM and RLL drives (Was: Re: Default password for Pick system on an AT?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2005, Richard Beaudry wrote: > Heresy, I know, but I don't have a Linux box :-)... Also, please > don't tell me "you ought to set one up" ... I don't wish to fan > advocacy flames, so let's just drop it there. No advocacy flames required. It's a little bit of work but the tools you get with Linux far outweigh the trouble involved in setting up a system. > Would something like Ghost work? I've never tried it on small, old drives. I'm not sure, but dd does. > I do have a DOS box (p-133), so if there's some DOS/WIN 3.1 utility to > do the same thing, I could use that .... Probably. I wouldn't know off-hand. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 17 00:58:18 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:58:18 -0700 Subject: Archiving MFM and RLL drives (Was: Re: Default password for Pick system on an AT?) Message-ID: <7b8fd2408d4b45bd5dd0a2736a4936f9@bitsavers.org> > I'm not sure, but dd does. As long as you don't hit a bad block. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 17 00:58:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > got to be up in 5 or 6 hours......curse this 'work' thing - why can't we > > > > be paid handsomely for preserving ye olde silicon of yore?! > > > > > > Um, actually, you can :) > > > > "... but only if you're Sellam Ismail" :-) > > But I suspect that if I changed my name by deed poll to 'Sellam Ismail', > it wouldn't help. It's not easy being me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 17 01:14:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archiving MFM and RLL drives (Was: Re: Default password for Pick system on an AT?) In-Reply-To: <7b8fd2408d4b45bd5dd0a2736a4936f9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > > I'm not sure, but dd does. > > As long as you don't hit a bad block. Someone (I think Jules or Philip) figured out there's an option you can specify on the command line to tell dd to skip bad blocks and replace any bad sectors with zeroes. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Tim at rikers.org Fri Jun 17 01:35:01 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:35:01 -0500 Subject: Archiving MFM and RLL drives (Was: Re: Default password for Pick system on an AT?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B26F15.7050707@Rikers.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>As long as you don't hit a bad block. > > Someone (I think Jules or Philip) figured out there's an option you can > specify on the command line to tell dd to skip bad blocks and replace any > bad sectors with zeroes. dd conv=noerror,sync is probably what you're after. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 17 02:16:35 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:16:35 -0500 Subject: Altair Fan References: <002b01c572dc$58b9cb70$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <00a301c5730c$7ef5ffe0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Richard A. Cini" Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 8:31 PM > All: > > OK, this is a stupid question. I'm fixing up the 8800b that I got > recently and I removed the fan to perform some work on the power supply. > Unfortunately I didn't mark which direction the air blows. Can someone tell > me if it blows inward or outward? > > Thanks. > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ You always want to remove the bad air (blow out). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Fri Jun 17 02:31:48 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:31:48 +0200 Subject: Altair Fan References: <002b01c572dc$58b9cb70$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <00a301c5730c$7ef5ffe0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> Message-ID: <000e01c5730e$9f150b20$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Randy McLaughlin" > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 8:31 PM > > > > All: > > > > OK, this is a stupid question. I'm fixing up the 8800b that I got > > recently and I removed the fan to perform some work on the power supply. > > Unfortunately I didn't mark which direction the air blows. Can someone > tell > > me if it blows inward or outward? > > All fans I've seen have an arrow on the fan body, telling which direction it blows, when properly connected. This is especially important if the power lines have a connector corresponding to the power connectors on floppy drives and harddisks. Nico From tponsford at theriver.com Fri Jun 17 02:55:01 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:55:01 -0700 Subject: DEC Docs Pictures. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050616225544.0098b100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050616091521.00971800@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050616091521.00971800@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050616225544.0098b100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42B281D5.9080102@theriver.com> Joe R. wrote: > > > BTW that bag that was on top of the stack in the passenger seat and >that kept falling on me contains a DEC printing terminal called a >"Counselor" or some such. Do you know anything about it? > > Joe > >I'm pretty sure it's a DEC "Correspondent", a portable terminal/printer. They are not rare but not too common either. I have one with all the manuals, etc. The early versions had a side plastic panel you could remove to reveal an acoustic coupler. They are pretty cool. > > Cheers, Tom > > >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > > From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 17 03:01:49 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:01:49 +0100 Subject: KA9Q, was Re: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:51:46 EDT." <200506161847.j5GIldlc061807@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200506170801.JAA05600@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Bob Lafleur said: > > Just as recently as a few months ago I recall doing an nslookup and noticing > that my old "domain" (nq1c.ampr.org) was still showing in the internet DNS, > although I was not able to find any functional routes to any .ampr.org > addresses. I just looked again, and nq1c.ampr.org seems to no longer > resolve, but ampr.org still does. I tried my old g0clv.ampr.org yesterday and that no longer resolves... I left a receiver and a tnc running on the local tcp/ip 2 meter channel all day yesterday, but the only stations heard were too weak for me to be able to use :-( Another good idea bites the dust! I suppose I could connect the tnc to the PDP-11/73 and get a classic computer on packet radio. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From roger161uk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 17 05:14:09 2005 From: roger161uk at yahoo.co.uk (Roger Bisson) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:14:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Windows 3.0 Message-ID: <20050617101409.77398.qmail@web86902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi, I have a copy of Windows 3.0 for DOS, in its original box. Not sure if it has a value on eBay, but just wondered if anybody wanted it (paying the cost of postage and packing) as I'm likely to bin it otherwise. Thanks, Roger ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jun 17 05:30:32 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:30:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: <66CEC93D-A93F-4E8A-8EBA-1A6F2A6BF335@mind-to-mind.com> References: <49594.82.152.112.73.1118864328.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <66CEC93D-A93F-4E8A-8EBA-1A6F2A6BF335@mind-to-mind.com> Message-ID: <33447.135.196.233.27.1119004232.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Not later... but you could always get what TimBL developed... I get the feeling I should know what that is but I don't..... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Jun 17 05:55:14 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 06:55:14 -0400 Subject: Commodore CSG == ICS?? Message-ID: Greg: The CFO of ICS confirmed that they are not the same building but across the street. When I went to CSG a few years ago, it was the only semicon plant in the development that I saw. I would say that ICS is probably in an uninteresting office building. If I were closer I would drive by out of curiosity and if I had nothing else going on that day. Richard Cini Director Wachovia Capital Finance 212-545-4402 -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Sent: Fri Jun 17 00:10:21 2005 Subject: RE: Commodore CSG == ICS?? > > I saw a news clip this morning about IDT (a semiconductor > company) buying Integrated Circuit Systems. ICS makes analog and mixed > signal chips and owns Turtle Beach Sound. The thing that made me > curious was > that ICS was located in Norristown, PA. I thought to myself what are the > chances of there being two semiconductor plants in Norristown PA. > The first > successor to Commodore CSG, GMT Microelectronics was also into > mixed signal > ASICs. > > > > ICS is located at 2435 Boulevard of the Generals, > Norristown, PA > 19403. The Commodore CSG was located at 950 Rittenhouse Road. So, I ran a > Mapquest on both addresses and it appears they point to the same physical > location in the Valley Forge Corporate Center at the corner of Rittenhouse > Road and Van Buren. Hmmm... > > > > According to the public filings, ICS bought the property in > 1992, which was before Commodore failed in 1994. And, it's known that GMT > Microelectronics (now defunct; owned by former CSG engineers and managers) > bought the old CSG plant in 1996. So, it can't be the same > location...maybe > there are two semicon plants next door to each other?? > > > > Interestingly the president and CEO, Hock Tan, joined ICS in > 1994. ICS was incorporated in Pennsylvania in 1976. Prior to joining ICS, > Hock Tan was Vice President of Finance of Commodore International, Ltd. > > > > So, I emailed a contact at the Company, but I haven't > heard back > yet. Does anyone on the list live near Norristown, PA? It's about a 3 hour > hike from me, so it's not that easy for me to visit. > > > > Rich I live about 30-45 mins from there. I can take a ride by there Monday or Tuesday if you want. I am a bit curious about this myself now too. Greg Manuel ==> See forgotten passwords befind **** asterisks: www.SeePassword.com From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jun 17 06:01:01 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:01:01 -0400 Subject: Altair Fan Message-ID: <20050617110059.NVNS16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 21:31 16/06/2005 -0400, you wrote: >All: > > OK, this is a stupid question. I'm fixing up the 8800b that I got >recently and I removed the fan to perform some work on the power supply. >Unfortunately I didn't mark which direction the air blows. Can someone tell >me if it blows inward or outward? > > Thanks. > >Rich Hi Rich, Both of my 8800s have the fan blowing out. The general rule is: If the fan has a filter, then it should blow in.: By maintaining positive internal pressure, and filtering the air that comes in, you keep dust from entering the box. If it does not have a filter, it should blow out: A fast moving stream of air will carry more dust than a slow one. If you blow the fan in, it will carry dust into the box which will drop out before it exits at slower speed (because of the much larger area of all the vents and other openings) - it also causes dust buildup to concentrate that certain points bacause of sudden changes in airflow (you can often see bands of thick dust in boxes with fans improperly installed). Going the other way reduces the entry speed (same reason) and thus the amount of dust that enters - what does get in tends to settle out in a more uniform distribution. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 17 05:59:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 03:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive Message-ID: Does anyone have the service manual for the IBM 9348 9-track tape drive? I'm trying to find out why mine is failing diagnostic test #1 (error code 6). Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jun 17 06:11:44 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:11:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: <33447.135.196.233.27.1119004232.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <49594.82.152.112.73.1118864328.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <66CEC93D-A93F-4E8A-8EBA-1A6F2A6BF335@mind-to-mind.com> <33447.135.196.233.27.1119004232.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <34622.135.196.233.27.1119006704.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >> Not later... but you could always get what TimBL developed... > > I get the feeling I should know what that is but I don't..... Bad phrasing there. I didn't think he'd developed a more recent browser than the one he did at CERN is what I meant :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 17 06:32:15 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:32:15 +0000 Subject: Archiving MFM and RLL drives (Was: Re: Default password for Pick system on an AT?) In-Reply-To: <42B26F15.7050707@Rikers.org> References: <42B26F15.7050707@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <1119007935.8308.8.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-17 at 01:35 -0500, Tim Riker wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >>As long as you don't hit a bad block. > > > > Someone (I think Jules or Philip) figured out there's an option you can > > specify on the command line to tell dd to skip bad blocks and replace any > > bad sectors with zeroes. > > dd conv=noerror,sync > > is probably what you're after. That's the one. It'll pad output with zeros where any bad blocks occur. Keep a note of the dd output that goes to the terminal too (otherwise you won't know years later which were bad blocks and which were intentional blocks of zeros :) Including output of 'fdisk -l' on the drive on the archive is useful too as it'll tell you what geometry Linux is using for the drive (as well as a dump of the partition table if it's of a type that fdisk understands). In the case of MFM / RLL drives it'd be worth making a note of what model disk controller the drive was hooked up to. I have a feeling dd is available under Windows in the gnu utils port - but it wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't understand reading from raw disk devices (even assuming that Windows has the necessary support for MFM/RLL disk controllers in the first place) As for DOS - you'd *probably* end up writing some code to talk to the disk controller; how complex that'd be I don't know. cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 17 06:32:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 04:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: I'm trying to repair the tape drive in an HP 9825. The roller has melted (no surprise there). It seems like I could just get a bit of silicon tubing or something that has the same diameter and guage as the existing roller. I know this has been discussed before but I can't find any specific messages (by the way, the CC archive search is broken, Jay). Can anyone provide any tips or guidance so I don't have to re-learn mistakes already made? Any tips for cleaning off the existing material? Isopropyl alcohol? Any thoughts of using heatshrink tubing and applying multiple layers until it has the same thickness as the original roller? Thanks for any help. This will be a candidate for adding to the knowledge base once I've successfully replaced the roller. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 17 06:49:07 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:49:07 +0000 Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1119008947.8308.25.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-17 at 00:49 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Question - does anyone have service information for these machines > > (yeah, right!) or useful tips on things to check over? > > No psecific service information, but my first comment is that 99% of > problems with mechanical calculators are due to gummy lubricants. Worn or > broken parts are uncommon. There certainly doesn't seem to be much sign of wear on this machine. The plus/minus/manual carriage movement keys seem prone to jamming and I need to figure out the source of that (possibly more foreign debris in the mechanism somewhere) > Serondly, do not spray it with Wanton Destruction 40, or anything else > for that matter. You will do a lot more harm than good... I've been using sewing machine oil so far (which is the lightest stuff I've got). I just wonder if leaving it in a (slowly circulating / filtered?) bath of oil for a week or so would be useful for freeing stuff up and getting all the dirt out... > > So far I've found an acorn jamming up the works (!!) and lots of dirt, > > An Acorn... What, a System 1, or an Atom, or a Beeb or an Arch, or what... > > (sorry, couldn't resist...) :-) I have no idea how it got in there; there isn't really a sufficient gap anywhere for such a thing to fall inside. And it was *very* well buried inside the mechanism (almost as though someone stuck it in there for fun!) > > There's some earth leakage which would be useful to track down - > > possibly a break-down in cable insulation? I've not worked out what the > > Most of the time, that's due to tracking across the impregnated fibre > insulators used in things like the automatic on/off swtich. Aha, well I can isolate and test easy enough there without any severe dismantling of things. Can anything be done to fix the problem (short of making new insulators)? > Almost certainly a governor. Do not be tempted to bypass it, many of > these machines used series wound motors which will get up to a ridiculous > speed if not controlled and do considerable damage. Yep, I saw somewhere that 180rpm is typical for governed motor speed... > > Can't say I've ever seen such a complicated thing. Electronic circuits > > don't even come close in complexity :-) I don't think I'd be up for a > > I've not seen this one, but from the mechanical calculators I have been > inside, there's typically the same mechanism repeated times (digit > entry, accumulator register, etc, and some control linkages, which are > typically outside the side frames. There are a lot of parts, but the > complexity is not that high. Yep, it's the bits outside the frames that are rather scary-looking! The actual underside of the key bed doesn't look too bad. This machine's fully automatic, so I suppose it's an extra stage of complexity over a semi-automatic machine. It's got three registers, plus the multiplier one. > > pps. Anyone care to guess a date for this machine? I'd make a wild guess > > at mid-50's but really don't know. > > Sounds about right. Maybe a little later (early 1960s). Uh huh - digging around since posting that, it looks like circa 1962 is about right. cheers, Jules From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Jun 17 06:47:46 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:47:46 -0400 Subject: Altair Fan Message-ID: Dave: Rules-of-thumb like this are great to know. The fan, I'm sure, was installed (like the IMSAI) blowing IN because the inside was caked with dust. So, I made it an exhaust fan (no filter). As I work on the IMSAI, which has no filter either, I will swap it around, too. To answer another comment at the same time, the fan does indeed have an arrow but the arrow itself doesn't tell me if it should be facing IN or OUT. Rich ============================= Richard A. Cini, Jr. Director Wachovia Capital Finance 1133 Avenue of the Americas New York, NY 10036 W: 212-545-4402 F: 212-545-4589 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 7:01 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Altair Fan At 21:31 16/06/2005 -0400, you wrote: >All: > > OK, this is a stupid question. I'm fixing up the 8800b that I got >recently and I removed the fan to perform some work on the power supply. >Unfortunately I didn't mark which direction the air blows. Can someone tell >me if it blows inward or outward? > > Thanks. > >Rich Hi Rich, Both of my 8800s have the fan blowing out. The general rule is: If the fan has a filter, then it should blow in.: By maintaining positive internal pressure, and filtering the air that comes in, you keep dust from entering the box. If it does not have a filter, it should blow out: A fast moving stream of air will carry more dust than a slow one. If you blow the fan in, it will carry dust into the box which will drop out before it exits at slower speed (because of the much larger area of all the vents and other openings) - it also causes dust buildup to concentrate that certain points bacause of sudden changes in airflow (you can often see bands of thick dust in boxes with fans improperly installed). Going the other way reduces the entry speed (same reason) and thus the amount of dust that enters - what does get in tends to settle out in a more uniform distribution. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 17 06:55:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:55:18 +0000 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1119009318.8308.31.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-17 at 04:32 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Any tips for cleaning off the existing material? Isopropyl alcohol? Presumably the roller is secured by a circlip and you can remove it for cleaning rather than having to do it in place? In which case any cleaning product will do the job nicely as it's not going to contaminate anything important... > Any thoughts of using heatshrink tubing and applying multiple layers > until it has the same thickness as the original roller? I'm guessing it wouldn't contract evenly and you'd end up with something that wasn't very round. Some sort of silicone tubing sounds like a better bet... cheers Jules From bqt at Update.UU.SE Fri Jun 17 07:00:15 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:00:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Is this an RK05? Can anyone read it? In-Reply-To: <200506171139.j5HBcv6f074073@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506171139.j5HBcv6f074073@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 Graham Toal wrote: Hi. > There was once a student project to write a multi-tasking operating > system for the PDP11. Written at Groeningen University in the > Netherlands under the supervision of professor Harry Whitfield, > this O/S had more than a passing resemblance to the classic > mainframe O/S, EMAS, from Edinburgh. > > The O/S was thought to be lost apart from small excerpts that were > documented in the project report (online at: > http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/guts/ ) > > but a disk pack has turned up which has a fair chance of containing > a working binary and sources. > > We think this is an RK05 pack for a PDP11: > > http://www.gtoal.com/images/rk05.JPG > > Can anyone confirm that? It's definitely an RK05. If it is for a PDP-11 is another issue. RK05 packs are hard sectored. If you look at the bottom, you'll find a metal edge with grooves in it. The grooves marks sectors. A PDP-11 RK05 will have 13 grooves. If it's for a PDP-8, it will have 17. I've also seen packs with 32 (or if it was 33) grooves. Don't know what system that is for. The grooves are evenly spaced, except for one, which is two grooves rather close together, which marks the start of a revolution. > And is there anyone in the UK who could read the drive? It may be > in a format that is backwards compatible with one of the DEC O/Ses, > or it may be unreadable at the FS level, just readable at the > block level. (Which shouldn't be an insurmountable problem, given > the scan of the documentation; also a disk image should pop right > in to one of Bob Supnik's emulators.) > > If someone trustworthy in the UK would like to have a go at > reading this drive, the keeper of the disk pack (in Edinburgh, > Scotland) will mail it to you. It would have to be someone who > I recognise from the list or who would be vouched for by a > list regular. As you can imagine we're a little squirrely > about sending the only copy to a stranger, especially in view > of an unfortunate experience we had last year. > > This drive probably has not been spun up since 1978 or 79. > > If anyone would like to help, please email me at gtoal at gtoal.com Well, I'm not in England, and you probably don't know me. I probably do have the ability to read the pack, but it would require some work on my part. The PDP-11 I have with an RK11 controller is located 80 km from me, and it don't have any RK05 drives attached today. I have PDP-8 systems at home, which have RK05 drives. So it would mean getting an RK05 into a car, drive to where the PDP-11 is, hook things up, and then run. And I'm in Sweden. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Fri Jun 17 07:06:06 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:06:06 +0200 Subject: Altair Fan References: Message-ID: <000c01c57334$f1456e00$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Cini, Richard" > To answer another comment at the same time, the fan does indeed have > an arrow but the arrow itself doesn't tell me if it should be facing IN or > OUT. Ah, my fault. The arrow shows the air flow, when the red line is connected to plus, and the black to ground (European standard) Nico From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Jun 17 07:05:15 2005 From: als at thangorodrim.de (als at thangorodrim.de) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:05:15 +0200 Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <200506162343.06210.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <42B1F06E.3000005@oldskool.org> <200506162343.06210.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050617120515.GA23381@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 11:43:06PM -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Ronald Wayne declared on Thursday 16 June 2005 11:33 pm: > > On 6/16/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > This linux box has a text-only display, so I can't display pdfs > > > on-screen. In theory I could run ghostscript to print them on my LW2 > > > > xpdf claims to have a utility to convert pdf to plain text. If memory > > serves me correctly, almost all of the dependencies disappear if you > > build it from source without X being present on your system. > > Considering that most of the PDF's that Tony would probably be interested > in (stuff on bitsavers, and schematics) aren't likely to have much > useful text content, that's probably not too helpful. Well, there is always aalib, which renders graphics using text ... ducking and running quickly, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From francois at auradon.com Fri Jun 17 06:24:33 2005 From: francois at auradon.com (Francois) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 06:24:33 -0500 Subject: Liquidating my collection Message-ID: <20050617112637.E40D636400D@relay01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> Ok People, I'm cleaning up the barn. All the computers have to go. I have over 150 machines sitting there and I need to get rid of them. I do not really have time to make a full list but most are shown or listed on my web site. http://auradon.com/users/sanctuary/index.html I have a fair amount of duplicates too. I have boxes upon boxes of docs, accessories and peripherals to go with them. I do not want to list them on ebay as that would require a lot of preparations and shipping would be a major pain. I've got better plan for my summer. What I would like to do is have a big garage sale. I'm located in the southern subburbs of the Twin Cities (Minnesota). If any of you is interested please respond to my email: fauradon (at) fronttiernet (dot) net Note: I a only getting rid of the machines that appear under these titles: Computers, Portables, Laptops and Cartridge based computers on my website. I will keep the PDA, Pocket Computers, Video Games, Calcultors Robots etc... I will actually take any in trade as well. I can arrange for any convenient weekend. As a longtime member of this group (1997) I understand the hobby and am ready to make reasonable deals with any of you. Looking forward to hearing from any of you. Thank you Francois From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 17 08:44:48 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:44:48 -0500 Subject: Archiving MFM and RLL drives In-Reply-To: References: <7b8fd2408d4b45bd5dd0a2736a4936f9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050617084121.04677a18@mail> At 01:14 AM 6/17/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Someone (I think Jules or Philip) figured out there's an option you can >specify on the command line to tell dd to skip bad blocks and replace any >bad sectors with zeroes. I tell ya, we've got to enlist Steve Gibson to make a classic-friendly version of Spinrite to help recover disks that could be readable on old and new PC-style floppy controllers, and save them to an image format. - John From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jun 17 09:17:45 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:17:45 -0500 Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B2DB89.1020208@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Does anyone have the service manual for the IBM 9348 9-track tape drive? > I'm trying to find out why mine is failing diagnostic test #1 (error code > 6). Me too! Seriously, Sellam, you might try some of the retailers who still sell them at >$1k/ea. I looked around last year and didn't find squat, but then I only tried a couple of dealers. Mine's not failing diags, it just can't the BOT mark on a known good tape. It's a 9348-012, by the way. I expect you already know this, but in IBM-world, the -012 suffix may be important, for example whether it's SE or differential. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jun 17 09:40:11 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:40:11 -0500 Subject: Mindset peripherals Message-ID: <42B2E0CB.8090208@mdrconsult.com> I know this is a really long shot, but does anybody have documentation, software, a keyboard, or a mouse for a Mindset? Or maybe information about using more common input devices? Thanks, Doc From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 17 10:16:55 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:16:55 -0700 Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive Message-ID: <9b05998930c2b6de612c74ae13ff4d44@bitsavers.org> You may want to compare your drive to the documentation on the HP 88780 under bitsavers/pdf/hp/tape I looked at one on an AS400 a long time ago, and IBM appeared to have OEMed the drive from HP. It is also 1600/6250 only, and 88780s are pretty rough on sticky tapes, so don't try using it on anything irreplacable. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 17 10:38:03 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:38:03 -0500 Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: <9b05998930c2b6de612c74ae13ff4d44@bitsavers.org> References: <9b05998930c2b6de612c74ae13ff4d44@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050617103610.04683958@mail> At 10:16 AM 6/17/2005, Al Kossow wrote: >It is also 1600/6250 only, and 88780s are pretty rough on >sticky tapes, so don't try using it on anything irreplacable. Speaking of sticky tapes, and being a few years short of personal opportunity as a tape operator, I recently read that operators would rub a bit of nose oil on the sticky or unreadable spot on the tape, and then it would read. True story? - John From wacarder at earthlink.net Fri Jun 17 11:16:37 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:16:37 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Is this an RK05? Can anyone read it? Message-ID: <28653597.1119024997344.JavaMail.root@wamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I have 3 working RK05 drives on my PDP-11/40 and have used them to successfully read and copy the data from RK05 packs that had not been spun up since the 1970s and early 1980s, but I guess I'm on the wrong side of the ocean. Good luck with recovering the data. I know what it's like to finally recover data from a pack that has been lying dormant for nearly 30 years. It's quite an exciting feeling, especially if it's stuff that you or your associates developed and you had once written it off as "lost forever". Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Jun 17, 2005 8:00 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org, gtoal at gtoal.com Subject: Re: Is this an RK05? Can anyone read it? On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 Graham Toal wrote: Hi. > There was once a student project to write a multi-tasking operating > system for the PDP11. Written at Groeningen University in the > Netherlands under the supervision of professor Harry Whitfield, > this O/S had more than a passing resemblance to the classic > mainframe O/S, EMAS, from Edinburgh. > > The O/S was thought to be lost apart from small excerpts that were > documented in the project report (online at: > http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/guts/ ) > > but a disk pack has turned up which has a fair chance of containing > a working binary and sources. > > We think this is an RK05 pack for a PDP11: > > http://www.gtoal.com/images/rk05.JPG > > Can anyone confirm that? It's definitely an RK05. If it is for a PDP-11 is another issue. RK05 packs are hard sectored. If you look at the bottom, you'll find a metal edge with grooves in it. The grooves marks sectors. A PDP-11 RK05 will have 13 grooves. If it's for a PDP-8, it will have 17. I've also seen packs with 32 (or if it was 33) grooves. Don't know what system that is for. The grooves are evenly spaced, except for one, which is two grooves rather close together, which marks the start of a revolution. > And is there anyone in the UK who could read the drive? It may be > in a format that is backwards compatible with one of the DEC O/Ses, > or it may be unreadable at the FS level, just readable at the > block level. (Which shouldn't be an insurmountable problem, given > the scan of the documentation; also a disk image should pop right > in to one of Bob Supnik's emulators.) > > If someone trustworthy in the UK would like to have a go at > reading this drive, the keeper of the disk pack (in Edinburgh, > Scotland) will mail it to you. It would have to be someone who > I recognise from the list or who would be vouched for by a > list regular. As you can imagine we're a little squirrely > about sending the only copy to a stranger, especially in view > of an unfortunate experience we had last year. > > This drive probably has not been spun up since 1978 or 79. > > If anyone would like to help, please email me at gtoal at gtoal.com Well, I'm not in England, and you probably don't know me. I probably do have the ability to read the pack, but it would require some work on my part. The PDP-11 I have with an RK11 controller is located 80 km from me, and it don't have any RK05 drives attached today. I have PDP-8 systems at home, which have RK05 drives. So it would mean getting an RK05 into a car, drive to where the PDP-11 is, hook things up, and then run. And I'm in Sweden. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 17 11:30:24 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:30:24 +0000 Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators In-Reply-To: <1119008947.8308.25.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1119008947.8308.25.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1119025824.8308.42.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-17 at 11:49 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Fri, 2005-06-17 at 00:49 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Most of the time, that's due to tracking across the impregnated fibre > > insulators used in things like the automatic on/off swtich. > > Aha, well I can isolate and test easy enough there without any severe > dismantling of things. Can anything be done to fix the problem (short of > making new insulators)? I just tried degreasing the ones that hold the plate supplying the 'hot' feed to the governor, then baking them in an oven for a bit. Seems to have done the trick - whether it's a long term repair or not is another matter... cheers Jules From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jun 17 11:34:13 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:34:13 -0700 Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: <9b05998930c2b6de612c74ae13ff4d44@bitsavers.org> References: <9b05998930c2b6de612c74ae13ff4d44@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200506170934.14046.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 17 June 2005 08:16, Al Kossow wrote: > You may want to compare your drive to the documentation on the > HP 88780 under bitsavers/pdf/hp/tape These 9 track SCSI tape drives (HP 88780) were AKA 7979A, 7980A, 7980XC/SX. The were OEMed by a LOT of manufacturers, including IBM, Sun, Tandem, etc. BTW: I downloaded the service and user manual from Al's site - and also found more information (IIRC parts list) on the Sun website. I've got two of them, one of which is shared between my DOS/Linux PUTR/Teledisk/RT "universal" copy machine and my PDP 11/83. Once cleaned and adjusted (if necessary) I have found them very reliable reading and writing 1600 and 6250 bpi tapes (neither of my drives support 800). They are a bit aggravating if a program fails to "observe" EOT - and read until the tape is totally on the take-up reel. You have slide the drive out, open the cover, rethread the tape by hand, "rewind" manually past the EOT, close it up and then power up and rewind. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From tomj at wps.com Thu Jun 16 20:50:29 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KA9Q, was Re: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: <200506152008.VAA24161@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200506152008.VAA24161@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <20050616184442.O843@localhost> >> Damn right it does! We (the little garden) ran a whole internet on >> 40 MHz 386 boxes with KA9Q as router for four member/customers >> (four serial cards and four modems, with ethernet to a 3COM >> Brouter or in some cases another KA9Q box as uplink). Around >> 1992. Real TCP/IP and minimal routing, plus local (keyboard/CRT) >> support for client and servers. Doesn't get more real than that! On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Stan Barr wrote: > I've come over all nostalgic! I think I'll dig out a 386, find the disks, > sort out my ex-taxi radio and get it going again, assuming there's still > some activity and a node I can reach from here. There are disadvantges > to being down at sea-level surrounded by hills :-( I'm a ham (kf6qfi, Extra) though I never cared about anything about HF, I wanted only cw on 1- and 2-digit frquencies (mobile, I might add :-) Lost interest pretty fast. Sad, but it's a dead field for me, 802.11 and all the battery computers kilted it dead. Hell my car will soon have freebsd on a soekris box for mp3 and megasquirt, I suppose I could get a 2m rig and do aprs and a bbs and all that stuff, along the way, for free. PS: Our KA9Q boxen were all purpose-built single-floppy machines. They'd boot (slowly!) and run without touching the diskette. It was pretty sweet, actually. If the modem handling had been a bit more robust it would have been reall super. I used to drive there (toad hall, or 824 university) to config them, never really telnetted into them for changes, that was a bit dangerous, and often involved a drive down to fix the "fix" :-) From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jun 17 11:42:21 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:42:21 -0700 Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: <9b05998930c2b6de612c74ae13ff4d44@bitsavers.org> References: <9b05998930c2b6de612c74ae13ff4d44@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200506170942.22083.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 17 June 2005 08:16, Al Kossow wrote: > It is also 1600/6250 only, and 88780s are pretty rough on > sticky tapes, so don't try using it on anything irreplacable. A couple of other thoughts on this drive - there are two modes of operation of the drive - one of which is much more gentle to tapes. I've set up my drives to always operate in the "safe" mode by default. If I am create a new tape with good media, I modify the "default" to "normal" tape handling. You will want to dump out the 75 or so parameters programmed into the drive and write them down before you change them. Slightly painful - but a very smart thing to do. Use the Service Manual for guidance on how to do this. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 17 11:45:02 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:45:02 -0700 Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive Message-ID: <762ea3938732290aa3072d9d04a67c58@bitsavers.org> >> You may want to compare your drive to the documentation on the >> HP 88780 under bitsavers/pdf/hp/tape > > These 9 track SCSI tape drives (HP 88780) were AKA 7979A, 7980A, 7980XC/SX. > The were OEMed by a LOT of manufacturers, including IBM, Sun, Tandem, etc. I've never seen a Tandem that wasn't HV Differential SCSI. A lot of them have come through BDI. Sun-labeled ones are what you should watch for. They all seem to have the 800bpi option, and are SE SCSI. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jun 17 11:54:14 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:54:14 -0700 Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: <762ea3938732290aa3072d9d04a67c58@bitsavers.org> References: <762ea3938732290aa3072d9d04a67c58@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200506170954.15171.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 17 June 2005 09:45, Al Kossow wrote: > >> You may want to compare your drive to the documentation on the > >> HP 88780 under bitsavers/pdf/hp/tape > > > > These 9 track SCSI tape drives (HP 88780) were AKA 7979A, 7980A, > > 7980XC/SX. > > > The were OEMed by a LOT of manufacturers, including IBM, Sun, Tandem, > > etc. > > I've never seen a Tandem that wasn't HV Differential SCSI. > A lot of them have come through BDI. > > Sun-labeled ones are what you should watch for. > They all seem to have the 800bpi option, and are SE SCSI. Al makes a good point. I use a HVD to SE SCSI converter on my Tandem drive. Works like a champ - and HVD permits long SCSI cables - but one more important thing to consider! Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 17 11:56:19 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:56:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: "Cini, Richard" "RE: Altair Fan" (Jun 17, 7:47) References: Message-ID: <10506171756.ZM18220@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 17 2005, 7:47, Cini, Richard wrote: > Rules-of-thumb like this are great to know. The fan, I'm sure, was > installed (like the IMSAI) blowing IN because the inside was caked with > dust. So, I made it an exhaust fan (no filter). > > As I work on the IMSAI, which has no filter either, I will swap it > around, too. Don't do that. If it's designed to blow in, changing the direction to blowing out will alter and probably reduce the cooling. Why? Because turbulent air is lots better at cooling than a laminar flow, and will reach more parts of the case. You get turbulent air from the "blow" side of a fan, but laminar flow towards the inlet side. You may also be directing the airflow away fom some component that previously was cooled, eg a PSU. Moreover, if you alter the flow direction so that air is being sucked in through all the other orifices, it will be entering via the fronts of disk drives etc (well, probably not on this machine but I'm thinking of the general case). That's the last place you want the dust. Far better it drops on the motherboard where you can vacuum it out. Better still, fit a filter. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 17 12:07:55 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair Fan Message-ID: <200506171707.KAA12273@clulw009.amd.com> Hi One should note that unless the fan is blowing directly onto some particularly hot item, you'll get really poor air flow distribution by blowing with a muffin fan. First the fast moving air tended to stick to the first surface it finds ( Coanda effect ). Also the air is rotation that tends to cause it to find corners to travel along. When the air is pulls into the fan, it tends to have more laminar flow from all directions. For better all around cooling, I recommend taping or masking off most of the slots on the power supply side, near the fan ( for a IMSAI or Atair ). These keep the air from cheating by taking the path of least resistance. More air flows across the boards and along the power supply. Dwight >From: "Dave Dunfield" > >At 21:31 16/06/2005 -0400, you wrote: >>All: >> >> OK, this is a stupid question. I'm fixing up the 8800b that I got >>recently and I removed the fan to perform some work on the power supply. >>Unfortunately I didn't mark which direction the air blows. Can someone tell >>me if it blows inward or outward? >> >> Thanks. >> >>Rich > >Hi Rich, > >Both of my 8800s have the fan blowing out. > >The general rule is: > >If the fan has a filter, then it should blow in.: > > By maintaining positive internal pressure, and > filtering the air that comes in, you keep dust > from entering the box. > >If it does not have a filter, it should blow out: > > A fast moving stream of air will carry more dust > than a slow one. If you blow the fan in, it will > carry dust into the box which will drop out before > it exits at slower speed (because of the much larger > area of all the vents and other openings) - it also > causes dust buildup to concentrate that certain > points bacause of sudden changes in airflow (you can > often see bands of thick dust in boxes with fans > improperly installed). Going the other way reduces > the entry speed (same reason) and thus the amount of > dust that enters - what does get in tends to settle > out in a more uniform distribution. > >Regards, >Dave >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > > From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Jun 17 12:14:50 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:14:50 -0400 Subject: Altair Fan Message-ID: Dwight: Interestingly, on the IMSAI, the slotted vents on the power supply side are blocked to prevent the "path cheating" you alluded to. Also the inside of the IMSAI case was virtually spotless with an inward-blowing fan (and no filter) while the Altair, which I believe had an inward-blowing fan, was filthy. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 1:08 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Altair Fan Hi One should note that unless the fan is blowing directly onto some particularly hot item, you'll get really poor air flow distribution by blowing with a muffin fan. First the fast moving air tended to stick to the first surface it finds ( Coanda effect ). Also the air is rotation that tends to cause it to find corners to travel along. When the air is pulls into the fan, it tends to have more laminar flow from all directions. For better all around cooling, I recommend taping or masking off most of the slots on the power supply side, near the fan ( for a IMSAI or Atair ). These keep the air from cheating by taking the path of least resistance. More air flows across the boards and along the power supply. Dwight >From: "Dave Dunfield" > >At 21:31 16/06/2005 -0400, you wrote: >>All: >> >> OK, this is a stupid question. I'm fixing up the 8800b that I got >>recently and I removed the fan to perform some work on the power supply. >>Unfortunately I didn't mark which direction the air blows. Can someone tell >>me if it blows inward or outward? >> >> Thanks. >> >>Rich > >Hi Rich, > >Both of my 8800s have the fan blowing out. > >The general rule is: > >If the fan has a filter, then it should blow in.: > > By maintaining positive internal pressure, and > filtering the air that comes in, you keep dust > from entering the box. > >If it does not have a filter, it should blow out: > > A fast moving stream of air will carry more dust > than a slow one. If you blow the fan in, it will > carry dust into the box which will drop out before > it exits at slower speed (because of the much larger > area of all the vents and other openings) - it also > causes dust buildup to concentrate that certain > points bacause of sudden changes in airflow (you can > often see bands of thick dust in boxes with fans > improperly installed). Going the other way reduces > the entry speed (same reason) and thus the amount of > dust that enters - what does get in tends to settle > out in a more uniform distribution. > >Regards, >Dave >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > > From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jun 17 12:30:49 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:30:49 -0700 Subject: Archiving MFM and RLL drives (Was: Re: Default password for Pick system on an AT?) In-Reply-To: (Vintage Computer Festival's message of "Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:14:42 -0700 (PDT)") References: Message-ID: <200506171730.j5HHUngg038396@lots.reanimators.org> Sellam wrote: > On Thu, 16 Jun 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > >> > I'm not sure, but dd does. >> >> As long as you don't hit a bad block. > > Someone (I think Jules or Philip) figured out there's an option you can > specify on the command line to tell dd to skip bad blocks and replace any > bad sectors with zeroes. I'm thinking that was Tom Jennings. I meant to follow up with the tidbit below at the time but put it off and forgot about it. Trust, but verify: a while back I did this with early FreeBSD 4.x (x<=2 I think) and found that the bad block was not replaced with zeroes (as the man page stated) but with the data from the previous block. It did log the bad block to stderr, and that is what I really wanted, and I didn't try to reproduce the problem or debug the code. -Frank McConnell From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 17 12:34:08 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators Message-ID: <200506171734.KAA12279@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" ---snip--- > >I've been using sewing machine oil so far (which is the lightest stuff >I've got). I just wonder if leaving it in a (slowly circulating / >filtered?) bath of oil for a week or so would be useful for freeing >stuff up and getting all the dirt out... Hi You might try first removing any rubber parts and then soak the entire assembly in a pan of oil. You might use straight weight motor oil and dilute it down with a little kerosene. Let it sit for some time and then work it manually while in the oil. This helps to wash things out, like rust and little bits of abrasive material. Tony might want to comment on this, he has worked on more mechanical items than I have. > > >> > So far I've found an acorn jamming up the works (!!) and lots of dirt, >> >> An Acorn... What, a System 1, or an Atom, or a Beeb or an Arch, or what... >> >> (sorry, couldn't resist...) > >:-) > >I have no idea how it got in there; there isn't really a sufficient gap >anywhere for such a thing to fall inside. And it was *very* well buried >inside the mechanism (almost as though someone stuck it in there for >fun!) ---snip--- This was most likely done by a mouse. They like to stash these nuts in some of the damnedest places. I had to clean a pile of nuts from my IMSAI power supply and find the small opening my little friend used to transport them in. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 17 12:40:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Windows 3.0 In-Reply-To: <20050617101409.77398.qmail@web86902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Roger Bisson wrote: > I have a copy of Windows 3.0 for DOS, in its original > box. Not sure if it has a value on eBay, but just > wondered if anybody wanted it (paying the cost of > postage and packing) as I'm likely to bin it > otherwise. It's somewhat common but becoming less so (it's at least 15 years old by now). Copies appear on eBay regularly and don't fetch much. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 17 12:45:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators In-Reply-To: <1119008947.8308.25.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > So far I've found an acorn jamming up the works (!!) and lots of dirt, > > > > An Acorn... What, a System 1, or an Atom, or a Beeb or an Arch, or what... > > > > (sorry, couldn't resist...) > > :-) > > I have no idea how it got in there; there isn't really a sufficient gap > anywhere for such a thing to fall inside. And it was *very* well buried > inside the mechanism (almost as though someone stuck it in there for > fun!) Well, obviously a squirrel stored it there and then forgot where he left it! Happens all the time. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 17 12:56:08 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair Fan Message-ID: <200506171756.KAA12303@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Pete Turnbull" > >On Jun 17 2005, 7:47, Cini, Richard wrote: > >> Rules-of-thumb like this are great to know. The fan, I'm sure, >was >> installed (like the IMSAI) blowing IN because the inside was caked >with >> dust. So, I made it an exhaust fan (no filter). >> >> As I work on the IMSAI, which has no filter either, I will swap >it >> around, too. > >Don't do that. If it's designed to blow in, changing the direction to >blowing out will alter and probably reduce the cooling. Why? Because >turbulent air is lots better at cooling than a laminar flow, and will >reach more parts of the case. You get turbulent air from the "blow" >side of a fan, but laminar flow towards the inlet side. You may also >be directing the airflow away fom some component that previously was >cooled, eg a PSU. Moreover, if you alter the flow direction so that >air is being sucked in through all the other orifices, it will be >entering via the fronts of disk drives etc (well, probably not on this >machine but I'm thinking of the general case). That's the last place >you want the dust. Far better it drops on the motherboard where you >can vacuum it out. Better still, fit a filter. > Hi Pete You have to remember, these machines were designed by electrical engineers, not an air flow expert. Yes, the original used in blowing air. I did a quick check of the temperatures of the boards in my IMSAI with the in blowing air and some boards seemed to get no flow at all. Reversing the flow made a big difference. The powersupply in the IMSAI, at least is large enough to need little more than some air flow. The only parts that might get uncomfortable are the filter caps. Any additional heat here is harder on them. Still, after many hours of use, with almost a full boat of 8K boards, I find the caps to be mildly warm. While not specifically schooled in air flow, I did work for a company that made burnin ovens. I learned a lot about air flow there. We would often get request from customers to fix the airflow in in-house designed chambers that had really poor temperature distribution. Mil spec states how uniform the chamber should be. Like I said, many of these were designed by electrical engineers. Dwight From brian at quarterbyte.com Fri Jun 17 13:02:54 2005 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:02:54 -0700 Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive Message-ID: <42B2ADDE.29058.83342D9B@localhost> > ... I recently read that operators would rub a bit of nose oil on > the sticky or unreadable spot on the tape Is that the expensive stuff you buy in a little bottle, they call it Attar of Noses? From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 17 13:01:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: <42B2DB89.1020208@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Does anyone have the service manual for the IBM 9348 9-track tape drive? > > I'm trying to find out why mine is failing diagnostic test #1 (error code > > 6). > > > Me too! > > > Seriously, Sellam, you might try some of the retailers who still sell > them at >$1k/ea. I looked around last year and didn't find squat, but > then I only tried a couple of dealers. > > Mine's not failing diags, it just can't the BOT mark on a known good > tape. > > It's a 9348-012, by the way. I expect you already know this, but in > IBM-world, the -012 suffix may be important, for example whether it's SE > or differential. Thanks for the info. I've had this for several months now and have a recent need to read/write 9-track tapes. So it finally got dug out from under a pile of crap and I decided to give it a whirl, since the top-loading Ciphers I have are currently MIA. I set it up, powered it up, it came up to ready, so far so good. I inserted a tape and hit load and it worked like a champ. So last night I was attempting the next phase which was hooking it to a PC. The Adaptec controller didn't see it on the SCSI chain. I began fiddling with the diagnostics and found the ID configuration option. It's currently set at ID 0 and I can't change it (I get the "Illegal" response any time I try to change it). I googled about and found some scant information that diagnostic test 1 should be run, so when I did it comes back as a faiulre. I have no idea if this is supposed to be working or not, but it apparently seems to have a problem of some sort, the least of which is that it's not being recognized on the SCSI chain (though I haven't yet tested the SCSI adapter with another known good device to see if maybe the SCSI card is faulty). A service manual would be ideal ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 17 13:02:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: <9b05998930c2b6de612c74ae13ff4d44@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > You may want to compare your drive to the documentation on the > HP 88780 under bitsavers/pdf/hp/tape > > I looked at one on an AS400 a long time ago, and IBM appeared > to have OEMed the drive from HP. > > It is also 1600/6250 only, and 88780s are pretty rough on > sticky tapes, so don't try using it on anything irreplacable. Ok, cool, thanks. I checked in the IBM section but didn't find anything of course. This little bit of trivia helps. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 17 13:06:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: <200506170942.22083.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Lyle Bickley wrote: > You will want to dump out the 75 or so parameters programmed into the drive > and write them down before you change them. Slightly painful - but a very > smart thing to do. Use the Service Manual for guidance on how to do this. Oops. I guess I shouldn't have gone changing parameters nilly willy ;) I think I played with the first few settings, not really thinking I would fix it, but in just exploring the machine. I didn't realize these were "important" :) People sometimes do strange things at 4am. Hopefully there's a "restore to factory defaults" option somewhere ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 17 13:12:19 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive Message-ID: <200506171812.LAA12309@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Brian Knittel" > >> ... I recently read that operators would rub a bit of nose oil on >> the sticky or unreadable spot on the tape > >Is that the expensive stuff you buy in a little bottle, >they call it Attar of Noses? Hi This may have worked for reading but my experience is that any finger or nose grease will make recording fail on cassette tapes. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 17 13:09:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <200506171707.KAA12273@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > For better all around cooling, I recommend taping or masking > off most of the slots on the power supply side, near the fan > ( for a IMSAI or Atair ). These keep the air from cheating by > taking the path of least resistance. More air flows across the > boards and along the power supply. This is a common mod I find with many of my old S-100 machines. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 17 13:27:55 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:27:55 -0500 Subject: Altair Fan References: <200506171756.KAA12303@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <001001c5736a$4c1fd790$4f3cd7d1@Randy2> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 12:56 PM > >From: "Pete Turnbull" >> >>On Jun 17 2005, 7:47, Cini, Richard wrote: >> >>> Rules-of-thumb like this are great to know. The fan, I'm sure, >>was >>> installed (like the IMSAI) blowing IN because the inside was caked >>with >>> dust. So, I made it an exhaust fan (no filter). >>> >>> As I work on the IMSAI, which has no filter either, I will swap >>it >>> around, too. >> >>Don't do that. If it's designed to blow in, changing the direction to >>blowing out will alter and probably reduce the cooling. Why? Because >>turbulent air is lots better at cooling than a laminar flow, and will >>reach more parts of the case. You get turbulent air from the "blow" >>side of a fan, but laminar flow towards the inlet side. You may also >>be directing the airflow away fom some component that previously was >>cooled, eg a PSU. Moreover, if you alter the flow direction so that >>air is being sucked in through all the other orifices, it will be >>entering via the fronts of disk drives etc (well, probably not on this >>machine but I'm thinking of the general case). That's the last place >>you want the dust. Far better it drops on the motherboard where you >>can vacuum it out. Better still, fit a filter. >> > > Hi Pete > You have to remember, these machines were designed > by electrical engineers, not an air flow expert. Yes, > the original used in blowing air. > I did a quick check of the temperatures of the boards > in my IMSAI with the in blowing air and some boards > seemed to get no flow at all. Reversing the flow made > a big difference. The powersupply in the IMSAI, at least > is large enough to need little more than some air flow. > The only parts that might get uncomfortable are the > filter caps. Any additional heat here is harder on them. > Still, after many hours of use, with almost a full > boat of 8K boards, I find the caps to be mildly warm. > While not specifically schooled in air flow, I did > work for a company that made burnin ovens. I learned > a lot about air flow there. We would often get request > from customers to fix the airflow in in-house designed > chambers that had really poor temperature distribution. > Mil spec states how uniform the chamber should be. > Like I said, many of these were designed by electrical > engineers. > Dwight I recently had a few emails back and forth with Todd Fischer on the airflow characteristics of the Imsai. The fan was an option for the Imsai and is not required for normal operation at all, personally I strongly recommend installing a good fan. In the past I know of many people that would block some of the openings around the chassis and have are flow one direction or the other to cool specific cards. It is a good idea to try and test the temperatures that are built up and not just use the old here is the right answer don't worry approach. After it has run for a while open the case and just use your hand to find hot spots, it is common for some voltage regulators to get extremely hot. If so try rearranging the cards to increase airflow where needed. In general most S100 chassis prefer lots of cards to run cooler, more cards alter airflow as well as pulling down the power-supply voltages which make the regulators run cooler. Todd Fischer's advice is to leave all the ventilation holes open to keep the power-supply cooler. Many other manufacturers believed it best to not have ventilation right beside the power-supply forcing air over the S100 cards before reaching the power-supply. As I said my recommendation it to set it up then test it, change things and test again. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 17 13:18:05 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:18:05 +0000 Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators In-Reply-To: <200506171734.KAA12279@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200506171734.KAA12279@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1119032285.8308.53.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-06-17 at 10:34 -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Jules Richardson" > ---snip--- > > > >I've been using sewing machine oil so far (which is the lightest stuff > >I've got). I just wonder if leaving it in a (slowly circulating / > >filtered?) bath of oil for a week or so would be useful for freeing > >stuff up and getting all the dirt out... > > Hi > You might try first removing any rubber parts and then > soak the entire assembly in a pan of oil. You might use > straight weight motor oil and dilute it down with a little > kerosene. Let it sit for some time and then work it manually > while in the oil. This helps to wash things out, like rust > and little bits of abrasive material. > Tony might want to comment on this, he has worked on more > mechanical items than I have. That's the sort of thing I was thinking. I've got a spare 12V car windscreen washer pump that might even do to move (diluted) oil around - coupled with some sort of filter on the inlet it could do a nice job. All the rubber bits come off easily, as do the keytops. The motor and associated switches / wiring don't look too difficult to remove. The only non-metal bits that would be left would be the indicator dials on the carriage. Those are plastic, and I'm not sure how they'd fair being soaked in oil... Regarding Sellam's squirrels, there's just no access to the innards of the machine from the bottom or sides with the case on - the vents in the base were too small for the acorn to even get in. I don't remember there being sufficient room at the top around the carriage either, but I can't check that until I put the case back on. I'm having fun concoting a story where someone got the machine for cheap / free because it was broken - when it was they who'd planted the nut in there, being able to blame it on animals if it happened to be discovered :-) cheers Jules From hachti at hachti.de Fri Jun 17 13:44:45 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:44:45 +0200 Subject: PDP11/23+ frustration Message-ID: <42B31A1D.5020707@hachti.de> Hi folks, today I have powered up my Ampex DFR 996 removable/fixed combined disk drive. After tweaking a bit around the address plug (btw does anybody have an original one?) I got it to start. It said to be ready only once. And made a horrible sound with the head of the removable disk. After that I tried it again but the drive just inserts the head for a short moment (with the same noise) and retracts immediately, shutting down. Are there any opinions, spares, help, TOOLS for my situation? I have no clue if I could be able to find a new pair of heads and install them? Who has experience? What about the head alignment procedure? Now I have no software for my machine. No boot floppy disk. No way to conveniently boot the PDP11. Nothing. What to do next? I could start to program the machine via the monitor, like my Honeywell or a PDP8. But I wanted to run an operation system, use harddisk and floppy etc. The harddisk is VERY heavy (80kg?). Was much work to get it here... Has anybody a replacement? Is anyone interested in taking my whole system? Regards, Philipp From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 17 13:44:25 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair Fan Message-ID: <200506171844.LAA12320@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" ---snip--- > >As I said my recommendation it to set it up then test it, change things and >test again. > I have one of those nice Fluke multiple input meters with several thermocouple wires. It makes it easy to check things. On covering the power supply side, I leave about 1/4 of the air slots open towards the front panel. Randy is right that each installation requires a little different approach. If the machine is sparsely populated, one might even add some blocking to parts of the card cage. Air flow is a real funny thing. Air flow from a muffin fan is funnier still. Do remember, most power supply parts, such as diodes and transformers are more tolerant to temperature than your 20 year old memory chips. Dwight From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 17 14:03:12 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:03:12 -0700 Subject: PDP11/23+ frustration Message-ID: > today I have powered up my Ampex DFR 996 removable/fixed combined disk > drive. After tweaking a bit around the address plug (btw does anybody > have an original one?) I got it to start. It said to be ready only once. > And made a horrible sound with the head of the removable disk. After > that I tried it again but the drive just inserts the head for a short > moment (with the same noise) and retracts immediately, shutting down. sigh... it is a REALLY REALLY REALLY bad idea to just power old removable disk drives up to see if they will 'just work' as you discovered, THEY DON'T, and destroy themselves in the process look at the messages from Tom Jennings about all the trouble he had getting his going over the past few months the disturbing thing about this is 1) you now have a piece of junk that is most likely unrepairable unless you are VERY lucky and can clean the heads 2) you've destroyed the disc pack (which may be difficult to repace) and 3) you've lost whatever software was ON that pack (generally not a huge issue with pdp11s, but is a real loss on some other minis like Interdata) take a look at the logs from the restoration of Paul Allen's PDP-10 for a real horror story about getting drives to run again. http://www.pdpplanet.com/TemplateRestoration.aspx?contentId=8 From hachti at hachti.de Fri Jun 17 14:22:01 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:22:01 +0200 Subject: PDP11/23+ frustration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B322D9.4020205@hachti.de> Hi, > it is a REALLY REALLY REALLY bad idea to just power old removable disk > drives up to see if they will 'just work' > as you discovered, THEY DON'T, and destroy themselves in the process Yes.... :-( > look at the messages from Tom Jennings about all the trouble he had > getting his going over the past few months Hmpf, I forgot. Yes, he had some trouble with his Nova... > 1) you now have a piece of junk > that is most likely unrepairable unless you are VERY lucky and can > clean the heads Are there any tricks beyond Isopropanol? > 2) you've destroyed the disc pack (which may be > difficult to repace) and I have a few others.... Perhaps the drive has crashed before. Because one of the packs is open and the disk has these nice concentric stripes.... Should I take the drive to the scrapyard immediately? Regards, Philipp From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Jun 17 14:41:40 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:41:40 +0100 Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators References: <1119008947.8308.25.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <007d01c57374$95a13da0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 12:49 PM Subject: Re: Monroe electromechanical calculators > > > There's some earth leakage which would be useful to track down - > > > possibly a break-down in cable insulation? I've not worked out what the > > > > Most of the time, that's due to tracking across the impregnated fibre > > insulators used in things like the automatic on/off swtich. > > Aha, well I can isolate and test easy enough there without any severe > dismantling of things. Can anything be done to fix the problem (short of > making new insulators)? I have had some success on Tektronix 'scope switches. I soak the sitch wafer in de-greaser (I've used the RS aerosol version), changing the solution a couple of times, then I allow the switch to air dry, before lubricating it SPARINGLY with contact lubricant, and a suitable grease for the mechanical detent and bush. The other thing to check is the filter capacitors on the motor and mains input - the can be temporarily disconnected for a quick check (but if you leave them off, the neighbours will complain -TV and radio wiped out for about 200yds!) > > Almost certainly a governor. Do not be tempted to bypass it, many of > > these machines used series wound motors which will get up to a ridiculous > > speed if not controlled and do considerable damage. > > Yep, I saw somewhere that 180rpm is typical for governed motor speed... If the governor is similar to the type used on Creed teleprinters, then make sure that the contacts are properly cleaned and burnished - they have a tendency to "hook" and make a permanent contact, allowing the motor to overspeed. Jim. From fauradon at frontiernet.net Fri Jun 17 14:49:34 2005 From: fauradon at frontiernet.net (Francois) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:49:34 -0500 Subject: Liquidating my collection In-Reply-To: <20050617112637.E40D636400D@relay01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> Message-ID: <20050617195137.B1CE835839B@relay04.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> Hi all, Thank you to all who showed some interest. I have already received requests for specific machines. Unfortunately some of them were already gone. I will try to make a list out of the ones I have on my site and list only the ones that are still available. Right off the back the IBM 5110 and the SWTPC are long gone (to list members). Here's the list. ACT_______Apricot F10 Apple_______Apple ][ Apple_______Apple //e Apple_______Apple //c Apple_______Apple IIgs Apple_______Apple /// Apple_______Mac Plus Apple_______Mac Classic Apple_______Mac SE Apple_______Mac SE/30 Apple_______Mac II Apple_______Mac II cx Apple_______Mac II vx Apple_______Performa 631 AT&T_______UNIX PC Atari_______1040 STF Commodore_______Amiga 1000 Commodore_______PET 4016 Commodore_______B128 Compaq_______prolinea Epson_______QX10 Franklin_______ACE 500 Franklin_______ACE 1000 Franklin_______ACE 2100 Heath/Zenith_______ZT 1 Heath/Zenith_______H100 Heath/Zenith_______H89 Heath/Zenith_______Z100 Heath/Zenith_______Z90 Heath/Zenith_______?286 Hewlett Packard_______HP-85 Hewlett Packard_______HP-87XM Hewlett Packard_______HP-150 Hewlett Packard_______HP-150II IBM_______PC jr IBM_______PC XT IBM_______PS/2 Mod 60 IBM_______PS/2 Mod 80 Micron_______Pro Magnum Plus Sinclair_______Timex Sinclair 1000 Sinclair_______Timex Sinclair 1500 Tandy_______TRS80 Model III Tandy_______TRS80 Model 4 Tandy_______Tandy 1000 PC EX Televideo_______? Vector Graphic_______Vector 3 VTECH_______Laser 128 Amstrad_______PPC 512 Apple_______Mac Portable Commodore_______Commodore SX-64 Compaq_______Compaq Portable Compaq_______Compaq Portable II Grid_______Gridcase 1520 IBM_______Personal Portable Computer IBM_______PS/2 Mod 70P Jonos_______Jonos Kaypro_______Kaypro 1 Kaypro_______Kaypro II Kaypro_______Kaypro 4 Kaypro_______Kaypro 16 Osborne_______Osborne 1 Toshiba_______T3100 Apple_______Powerbook duo 230 Apple_______Powerbook duo 280c Compaq_______LTE Lite/20 Compaq_______LTE Lite/25 Compaq_______LTE Lite/25c Datavue_______Spark Epson_______HC 41 Epson_______HX 20 Epson_______HX 40 Grid_______GridPad 1910 Hewlett Packard_______HP-110 Hewlett Packard_______Omnibook 5000 Tandy_______100 Tandy_______102 Tandy_______200 Toshiba_______Satellite T1960-ct Toshiba_______T4500 Toshiba_______T4600 NEC_______PC-8201A VTECH_______Laser 50 Zenith_______SuperSport Zenith_______Z-Star 433 VLp Atari_______Atari 400 Atari_______Atari 600XL Atari_______Atari 800 Atari-------Atari 130XE Colecovision_______Adam Commodore_______VIC 20 Commodore_______Commodore 16 Commodore_______Commodore +4 Commodore_______Commodore 64 Commodore_______Commodore 64c Commodore_______Commodore 128 Magnavox_______Odyssey ^2 Matel_______Aquarius Tandy_______Color Computer Tandy_______Color Computer II Tandy_______Micro COCO MC10 Texas Instruments_______TI 99/4A Tommy_______Tutor Remember that I also have tons of peripherals,docs and software to search through. I'll try to reply personally to all of you who already sent me an email. Thank you all Francois -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Francois Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 5:25 AM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Liquidating my collection Ok People, I'm cleaning up the barn. All the computers have to go. I have over 150 machines sitting there and I need to get rid of them. I do not really have time to make a full list but most are shown or listed on my web site. http://auradon.com/users/sanctuary/index.html I have a fair amount of duplicates too. I have boxes upon boxes of docs, accessories and peripherals to go with them. I do not want to list them on ebay as that would require a lot of preparations and shipping would be a major pain. I've got better plan for my summer. What I would like to do is have a big garage sale. I'm located in the southern subburbs of the Twin Cities (Minnesota). If any of you is interested please respond to my email: fauradon (at) fronttiernet (dot) net Note: I a only getting rid of the machines that appear under these titles: Computers, Portables, Laptops and Cartridge based computers on my website. I will keep the PDA, Pocket Computers, Video Games, Calcultors Robots etc... I will actually take any in trade as well. I can arrange for any convenient weekend. As a longtime member of this group (1997) I understand the hobby and am ready to make reasonable deals with any of you. Looking forward to hearing from any of you. Thank you Francois From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 17 14:59:32 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators In-Reply-To: <1119032285.8308.53.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Regarding Sellam's squirrels, there's just no access to the innards of > the machine from the bottom or sides with the case on - the vents in the > base were too small for the acorn to even get in. Well, obviously the acorn was small when it got in and then grew, then it became lodged inside and died due to stunted growth. Some things are very simple to explain. No need to concoct outrageous theories about such stuff. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 17 15:08:00 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <200506171756.KAA12303@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200506171756.KAA12303@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050617130611.W57928@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > seemed to get no flow at all. Reversing the flow made > a big difference. Ahhhh, then you will need to make a sign to put on it to state that the air flow has been changed from the "historical" :-) From fauradon at frontiernet.net Fri Jun 17 16:21:32 2005 From: fauradon at frontiernet.net (Francois) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:21:32 -0500 Subject: Liquidating my collection In-Reply-To: <20050617112637.E40D636400D@relay01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> Message-ID: <20050617212336.4660F370435@relay02.roc.ny.frontiernet.net> Ok gang, One more clarification: By "garage sale" I meant that you come to my house, look at my stuff, buy what you want and haul it out to your home.... Sorry, at this point I do not see myself shipping stuff left and right. While I would rather have one big event with lots of people at once, I am available most of the time and can arrange for anyone to come check out what I have at almost any time. There are a lot of peripherals for the machines listed as well as software, docs, magazines and books that would take the whole summer to inventory. Thank you for understanding. Francois -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Francois Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 5:25 AM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Liquidating my collection Ok People, I'm cleaning up the barn. All the computers have to go. I have over 150 machines sitting there and I need to get rid of them. I do not really have time to make a full list but most are shown or listed on my web site. http://auradon.com/users/sanctuary/index.html I have a fair amount of duplicates too. I have boxes upon boxes of docs, accessories and peripherals to go with them. I do not want to list them on ebay as that would require a lot of preparations and shipping would be a major pain. I've got better plan for my summer. What I would like to do is have a big garage sale. I'm located in the southern subburbs of the Twin Cities (Minnesota). If any of you is interested please respond to my email: fauradon (at) fronttiernet (dot) net Note: I a only getting rid of the machines that appear under these titles: Computers, Portables, Laptops and Cartridge based computers on my website. I will keep the PDA, Pocket Computers, Video Games, Calcultors Robots etc... I will actually take any in trade as well. I can arrange for any convenient weekend. As a longtime member of this group (1997) I understand the hobby and am ready to make reasonable deals with any of you. Looking forward to hearing from any of you. Thank you Francois From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 17 16:41:06 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators Message-ID: <200506172141.OAA12366@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" > ---snip--- > >Regarding Sellam's squirrels, there's just no access to the innards of >the machine from the bottom or sides with the case on - the vents in the >base were too small for the acorn to even get in. I don't remember there >being sufficient room at the top around the carriage either, but I can't >check that until I put the case back on. I'm having fun concoting a >story where someone got the machine for cheap / free because it was >broken - when it was they who'd planted the nut in there, being able to >blame it on animals if it happened to be discovered :-) > Hi Jules It might be that the cover was off when the acorn got in there. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 17 16:51:02 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair Fan Message-ID: <200506172151.OAA12371@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> seemed to get no flow at all. Reversing the flow made >> a big difference. > >Ahhhh, >then you will need to make a sign to put on it to state that the air flow >has been changed from the "historical" :-) > Hi This is part of the continuing story of the IMSAI's history. Some part may never be known. My machine, although obviously and early machine, lacks a serial number. I guess that means it has no history. Dwight From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Jun 17 17:07:19 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:07:19 +0100 Subject: Simon relay computer References: <009101c56e02$53ac06e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <42B0CBA1.6080300@one.woovis.com> Message-ID: <00ed01c57388$ee3c4180$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> James, thanks for that, an interesting read. Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Nugen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:45 AM Subject: Re: Simon relay computer > Jim Beacon wrote: > > >A little while ago, we had a discussion about the Simon Relay Computer, and > >someone was going to look into scanning the articles, did it ever happen? > > > > > I can't find my photocopies of the Radio Electronics article. However, > I did scan a > chapter out of Berkeley's "Computers: Their Operation And > Applications". It descibes > Simon's operation and a bit on the construction. You can get it here: > > http://www.geocities.com/relaycomputers/Computers-S5.pdf > > James Nugen > From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jun 17 17:08:30 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:08:30 -0500 Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <20050617130611.W57928@shell.lmi.net> References: <200506171756.KAA12303@clulw009.amd.com> <20050617130611.W57928@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <42B349DE.6000606@mdrconsult.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >>seemed to get no flow at all. Reversing the flow made >>a big difference. > > > Ahhhh, > then you will need to make a sign to put on it to state that the air flow > has been changed from the "historical" :-) I have a large drawer full of original parts, labeled as to the machine they came out of and why. For some reason, it never occured to me to label the machine itself as altered. ;) What I don't get - and this isn't flame bait, I really don't understand - is the mania to preserve systems like S-100 sytems, big-box Amigas, even PDP-11s, that very rarely show up in their factory configuration. I have one box-stock A3000 and one PDP-11/53 that seems to be as delivered from DEC. The extent of hacking I've done is replacing the dead hard drive, adding ZIP memory (from an A3000 that no longer needs it), and installing Amiga UNIX. The 11/53 is all original, including the OS (RSX11M+ on an RD32), software (centrifuge control), and molly guard. I do have a couple of other Winchester drives that live in it some of the time, for beating up on. Nearly every other machine I have had been upgraded, altered, hacked, or flat-out hack*sawed* to the owners' hearts' content, so why should I enjoy them with any less gusto? Doc From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 17 17:17:28 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:17:28 -0400 Subject: Mindset peripherals In-Reply-To: <42B2E0CB.8090208@mdrconsult.com> References: <42B2E0CB.8090208@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <42B34BF8.2000305@atarimuseum.com> I have some spare mice, joysticks, and maybe a few serial/parallel cartridges, I have doc's for all... email me. Curt Doc Shipley wrote: > I know this is a really long shot, but does anybody have > documentation, software, a keyboard, or a mouse for a Mindset? > > Or maybe information about using more common input devices? > > Thanks, > Doc > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.3/15 - Release Date: 6/14/2005 From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jun 17 17:23:23 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:23:23 -0500 Subject: Mindset peripherals In-Reply-To: <42B34BF8.2000305@atarimuseum.com> References: <42B2E0CB.8090208@mdrconsult.com> <42B34BF8.2000305@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <42B34D5B.5090709@mdrconsult.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I have some spare mice, joysticks, and maybe a few serial/parallel > cartridges, I have doc's for all... email me. I'm emailin'.... Although I'm not sure any of that will help without a keyboard. Do you know of any that are compatible, with a rewired connector? If nothing else, I'm definitely interested in the documentation. Doc From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 17 17:25:06 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:25:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: "Dwight K. Elvey" "Re: Altair Fan" (Jun 17, 10:56) References: <200506171756.KAA12303@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <10506172325.ZM18729@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 17 2005, 10:56, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Pete Turnbull" > >On Jun 17 2005, 7:47, Cini, Richard wrote: > >> As I work on the IMSAI, which has no filter either, I will swap > >it > >> around, too. > > > >Don't do that. If it's designed to blow in, changing the direction to > >blowing out will alter and probably reduce the cooling. > Hi Pete > You have to remember, these machines were designed > by electrical engineers, not an air flow expert. Yes, > the original used in blowing air. Very common (both the EEs and the inblowing air :-)) Nor am I claiming to be a great airflow expert. What I was saying, though, doesn't really depend on whether it was designed by somebody who had a clue about airflow or not; it was likely checked by someone who determined that it worked "well enough" under some set of conditions. Changing something like the direction of airflow *without consideration of the consequences* is a bad thing. I'm not suggesting the airflow couldn't be improved one way or another. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jun 17 17:31:06 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:31:06 -0500 Subject: Mindset peripherals In-Reply-To: <42B34D5B.5090709@mdrconsult.com> References: <42B2E0CB.8090208@mdrconsult.com> <42B34BF8.2000305@atarimuseum.com> <42B34D5B.5090709@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <42B34F2A.2090200@mdrconsult.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> I have some spare mice, joysticks, and maybe a few serial/parallel >> cartridges, I have doc's for all... email me. > > > I'm emailin'.... And, I spaced changing the "To:" line. Sorry, y'all. Actually, I'm not very sorry at all. I've collected info today on two really frustrating pieces that I've had for a long time. The IBM 9-track and this Mindset. I've asked about both on this list before, but I guess I asked on days when the planets were out of alignment or something. There's very damned little I can't learn on CCtalk if I'm willing to keep asking till I get it right. I like that a lot. Doc From sieler at allegro.com Fri Jun 17 17:35:18 2005 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:35:18 -0700 Subject: HP 3000?? Thing-a-ma-jig available In-Reply-To: References: <000901c5686d$9c33c690$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42B2EDB6.26234.FAC7AD3@localhost> Re: > I suspect this allows more expanded terminal connections to a classic (i.e. > stack architecture) HP3000 beyond what you would normally have via an ATP. > ATP is the hardware for serial terminal connections. On the Series 64/68/70 > there was a bulkhead for this in the main CPU cabinet. Maybe this is for a > Series 44/48/58? Never saw one before. ...I've passed the link/question on to Chuck Shimada. -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 17 17:42:17 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 3000?? Thing-a-ma-jig available Message-ID: <20050617224217.6237A70C9E08@bitsavers.org> > I suspect this allows more expanded terminal connections to a classic (i.e. > stack architecture) HP3000 beyond what you would normally have via an ATP. > ATP is the hardware for serial terminal connections. On the Series 64/68/70 > there was a bulkhead for this in the main CPU cabinet. Maybe this is for a > Series 44/48/58? Never saw one before. ...I've passed the link/question on to Chuck Shimada. -- I think I saw several of these sitting in the back room of Excess Solutions Had no idea what they were either. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 17 18:26:48 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for a TU55/TC11 In-Reply-To: <17070.61925.669670.394445@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <52399.192.168.1.1.1118262602.squirrel@192.168.1.1> <17070.61925.669670.394445@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <47488.207.145.53.202.1119050808.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Paul wrote: > Did you really mean TU55? TU56 is the common drive with PDP-11s (dual > drive); TU55 is a single drive and usually appears on systems > predating the PDP-11. The TU56 existed in a single transport version, at least according to some of the documentation, but I've never seen one. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 17 18:37:38 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <200506141835.j5EIZer6024233@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48776.207.145.53.202.1119051458.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Byron wrote: > I'm sure that some of you guys can throw much more difficult > decisions [about processors] my way too. DEC GT40, an intelligent vector graphics terminal based on a PDP-11/05 minicomputer? Other PDP-11s? Other minicomputers? The PDP-1, introduced in 1960? Eric From fzrfast at bellsouth.net Sat Jun 18 16:36:50 2005 From: fzrfast at bellsouth.net (fzrfast) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:36:50 -0400 Subject: Number Nine Revolution graphics board Message-ID: <42B493F2.4030605@bellsouth.net> Hello: Any one have in the attic, garage, basement, etc an old Number Nine Revolution graphics board from about 1983-1985? Or any dos drivers for this board? Regards: Jim Cox From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 17 18:43:45 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teletypes (was Re: Retrochallenge, 2005) In-Reply-To: <42AF48DD.nail4UT1M5MNP@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <42AF48DD.nail4UT1M5MNP@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <49231.207.145.53.202.1119051825.squirrel@207.145.53.202> TIM wrote: > WHO NEEDS A COMPUTER AT HOME. I'VE GOT MY MODEL 33ASR TELETYPE > AND 110 BAUD MODEM. 33ASR? You youngsters have it easy. Back when I was young all we had were 5-level machines like the Model 28. Real fun using those to talk to ASCII-based systems: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/ttyhan/ Anyone got docs on the Model 35ASR, or the 37 or 38? Eric From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Jun 17 18:49:26 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:49:26 -0700 Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive References: Message-ID: <42B36186.7ACDF30@msm.umr.edu> Aren't these all M4 derivatives? I have no experience looking inside, but the controls and the door mechanism on the original M4 looks pretty much like all the ones mentioned. Al, thanks for having the HP manual online very much. Jim Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Does anyone have the service manual for the IBM 9348 9-track tape drive? > I'm trying to find out why mine is failing diagnostic test #1 (error code > 6). > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jun 17 18:49:40 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:49:40 -0500 Subject: Teletypes (was Re: Retrochallenge, 2005) References: <42AF48DD.nail4UT1M5MNP@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <49231.207.145.53.202.1119051825.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <000601c57397$3a7d8e10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Eric wrote... > Anyone got docs on the Model 35ASR, or the 37 or 38? I have very complete docs on the 35 (as well as the 35 to go with). Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jun 17 18:50:29 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:50:29 -0500 Subject: HP 3000?? Thing-a-ma-jig available References: <20050617224217.6237A70C9E08@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <001501c57397$5804e960$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Al wrote... > I think I saw several of these sitting in the back room of Excess > Solutions > Had no idea what they were either. Good to know others are around, because mine hit the skip when no one expressed interest :) Jay From tomj at wps.com Fri Jun 17 18:53:49 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP11/23+ frustration In-Reply-To: <42B322D9.4020205@hachti.de> References: <42B322D9.4020205@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20050617163638.P2336@localhost> >> it is a REALLY REALLY REALLY bad idea to just power old removable disk >> drives up to see if they will 'just work' >> as you discovered, THEY DON'T, and destroy themselves in the process > Yes.... :-( >> look at the messages from Tom Jennings about all the trouble he had >> getting his going over the past few months > Hmpf, I forgot. Yes, he had some trouble with his Nova... Umm yeah, don't do what I did... and I was even vaguely paying attention. >> that is most likely unrepairable unless you are VERY lucky and can >> clean the heads > Are there any tricks beyond Isopropanol? YES -- it is an extremely Big Deal to clean the heads on drives that have been sitting for a period of time greater than their design life! THat was the mistake I made. I did an ordinary clean job, which was grossly inadequate. DONT POWER IT ON AGAIN. If you crashed the removable platter you don't have a total disaster, just a small one. The media is now no good, 99.99% certainty. The heads are probably OK, assuming they were not physically damaged some time in the last decades. I found that counter to advice I had to remove the heads from the drive and do an extraordinary cleaning job with a 10X magnifier. THere was FeO practically fused to the head ceramic. I used a piece of wood ("popsicle stick" aka craft stick) soaked in alcohol, under a magnifier, to physically remove scrape off the oxide blobs. Nothing less worked, including soaking the head face in 99% alcohol. You will need factory technical documentation to do this. Head removal/insertion is rather delicate. One slip (eg. the pair of heads, which are under spring tension towards the platter) and the ceramic-faced heads >>WHACK<< together, ruining the heads permanently and immediately. And so on. It'll all be covered in the factory docs. I'd rate this a difficult job (eg. high skill level) but it can be done; field service monkeys changed heads all the time. Just gotta have docs, go slow, be patient, and use the right tools. That said, the biggest problem will then be, upon reassembly, the heads will be out of alignment with the pack(s) and you will need to align them. This is a Big Deal and cannot be done without an oscilloscpe and again the legendary factory documentation (schematics, etc). There is another solution to the problem which I took -- reformat the media. Of course this means instantaneous data loss. For the fixed platter, if you don't need the contents (eg. you can reinstall from other media) it's a fine solution. For removable media though it's a bad idea unless you're willing to abandon pack interchangability with other disk drives. I did give this up! I have only one removable pack; I don't need portability. If it ever comes up in a serious way, then I'll align the heads. I just didn't feel like undertaking it then. It would mean of course the pack I'm usnig now would have to be reformatted, but that's not a big deal for me. (My drive then died from another electronic failure, about a month later, which I have yet to fix.) If you crash the fixed head, you're screwed unless you can do a platterectomy and replace it. I was able to do this with EXTREME EXTREME CARE, using the platter from a removable pack (hence my lack of spares). > I have a few others.... Perhaps the drive has crashed before. Because one of > the packs is open and the disk has these nice concentric stripes.... The media should be utterly perfect and smooth brown oxide. If you see aluminum, it's hopelessly crashed. Now you could have worn but usable media, where the oxide is discolored or optically discontinuous; what happens is dirt/crud on the head, within non-crash limits, reaches through the air film of the spinning platter and bonks off the peaks of the (micro) mountains of oxide on the platter. It'll take the gloss off... these kind of packs are at the end of their lives and will dirty heads -- at best -- and shouldn't be used. > Should I take the drive to the scrapyard immediately? No. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 17 18:55:46 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators In-Reply-To: <200506172141.OAA12366@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200506172141.OAA12366@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050617165433.D65182@shell.lmi.net> > >Regarding Sellam's squirrels, there's just no access to the innards of > >the machine from the bottom or sides with the case on - the vents in the On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi Jules > It might be that the cover was off when the acorn got in there. > Dwight ... or the squirrel had a Bristol-Spline wrench? From tomj at wps.com Fri Jun 17 18:57:57 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my computers, status Message-ID: <20050617165352.F2336@localhost> Just a quick note on why I've been silent on my DG Nova 4, LGP-21, etc all summer... Basically, summer is car season. I just got a project car on the road, I'm tweaking it now. I also need to service my other vintage object, my 1963 Rambler Classic, which I usually drive every day. Needs transmission overhaul. The LGP-21 is safe in my living room (only vintage gear allowed in the house! it's pretty!), the Nova 4 is in the lab, safe dry and cool, awaiting crappy weather to keep me inside, where I'll find the error in the drive (again). I want to start on the LGP-21 this year. My Nova 4 experience has informed that project, so I have an inkling where to start now on the hardware bring-up. (Though I still don't have one inch of software for it.) From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Jun 17 19:22:59 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:22:59 -0700 Subject: paging Eric in Seattle Message-ID: <20337DDD-DF8F-11D9-88E6-000A9596EB3C@valleyimplants.com> I've sent some E-mails to ericj at speakeasy.net and haven't heard a response... I'd like to get the Xenix to you before the Canada stuff goes to Denmark. -Scott Quinn From richardlynch3 at comcast.net Fri Jun 17 19:30:28 2005 From: richardlynch3 at comcast.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:30:28 -0500 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 6/17/05 6:32 AM, Vintage Computer Festival at vcf at siconic.com wrote: > > I'm trying to repair the tape drive in an HP 9825. The roller has melted > (no surprise there). It seems like I could just get a bit of silicon > tubing or something that has the same diameter and guage as the existing > roller. > > I know this has been discussed before but I can't find any specific > messages (by the way, the CC archive search is broken, Jay). Can anyone > provide any tips or guidance so I don't have to re-learn mistakes already > made? > > Any tips for cleaning off the existing material? Isopropyl alcohol? Any > thoughts of using heatshrink tubing and applying multiple layers until it > has the same thickness as the original roller? > > Thanks for any help. This will be a candidate for adding to the knowledge > base once I've successfully replaced the roller. I have an old Altos tape drive that uses DC300 tapes. I went to the local hardware store and bought a rubber grommet with an inside diameter just slightly smaller than the capstan on the drive, so it would fit nice and tight. I then used fine sandpaper to reduce the outer diameter until it matched the original. Slipped it on the capstan and successfully backed up the hard drive on my ACS8000. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 17 20:02:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my computers, status In-Reply-To: <20050617165352.F2336@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > I want to start on the LGP-21 this year. My Nova 4 experience has > informed that project, so I have an inkling where to start now on > the hardware bring-up. (Though I still don't have one inch of > software for it.) The LGP-21 would make a great VCF exhibit ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 17 20:12:40 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: <200506170934.14046.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <9b05998930c2b6de612c74ae13ff4d44@bitsavers.org> <200506170934.14046.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <58168.207.145.53.202.1119057160.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Al wrote: > You may want to compare your drive to the documentation on the > HP 88780 under bitsavers/pdf/hp/tape Lyle wrote: > These 9 track SCSI tape drives (HP 88780) were AKA 7979A, 7980A, > 7980XC/SX. > The were OEMed by a LOT of manufacturers, including IBM, Sun, Tandem, etc. Note that most of the OEM'd drives were nearly identical to the generic HP drive. The IBM 9348, though, has an entirely different control panel (not just different legends). I have no idea how much difference there was to the innards. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 19:04:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 01:04:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Retrochallenge, 2005 In-Reply-To: from "Ronald Wayne" at Jun 17, 5 00:33:54 am Message-ID: > xpdf claims to have a utility to convert pdf to plain text. If memory I can believe it will extract the text from pdfs that contain text, and attempt to format it. But if you can find me a utility that will turn a schematic diagram into plain text, I will be very suprised... And needless to say, most of the pdfs I want to look at are containers of scanned schematic diagrams... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 19:12:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 01:12:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 17, 5 04:32:01 am Message-ID: > > > I'm trying to repair the tape drive in an HP 9825. The roller has melted > (no surprise there). It seems like I could just get a bit of silicon No suprise at all. All HP rollers do this in the end... I've got a 9845B on the bench at the moment, and both internal tape drives need new rollers. > tubing or something that has the same diameter and guage as the existing > roller. Indeed you can. The other solution is to use an O-ring, put into a groove on the metal hub. IIRC, the 9825 tape drive (same mechanism as in the 9815, 9831, 9835, 9845, 9877, etc) has a somewhat complicated hub, carrying the tachometer disk at the lower end, so it's not going to be easy to either make a replacement or machine the groove in the existing hub.. > I know this has been discussed before but I can't find any specific > messages (by the way, the CC archive search is broken, Jay). Can anyone Another place to look is on the MoHPC forum (http://www.hpmuseum.org/, and follow the obvious links, or do a google search with site:www.hpmuseum.org). This problem has certainly been discussed there. > provide any tips or guidance so I don't have to re-learn mistakes already > made? > > Any tips for cleaning off the existing material? Isopropyl alcohol? Any Yes. That generally shifts it. > thoughts of using heatshrink tubing and applying multiple layers until it > has the same thickness as the original roller? That has certainly been done. Either by someone here, or by someone on MoHPC. > > Thanks for any help. This will be a candidate for adding to the knowledge > base once I've successfully replaced the roller. Would you be interested in the instructions for doing this (properly!) on a 9810/9820 magnetic card reader? If so, I'll post/e-mail them to you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 19:18:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 01:18:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Monroe electromechanical calculators In-Reply-To: <1119008947.8308.25.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 17, 5 11:49:07 am Message-ID: > > Serondly, do not spray it with Wanton Destruction 40, or anything else > > for that matter. You will do a lot more harm than good... > > I've been using sewing machine oil so far (which is the lightest stuff I normally use clock oil (or watch oil if it's a very fine mechanism). H.S. Walsh in London sell it, for example. > I've got). I just wonder if leaving it in a (slowly circulating / > filtered?) bath of oil for a week or so would be useful for freeing > stuff up and getting all the dirt out... No!. That is a sure way to get oil where you don't want it (like between parts that are designed to slide over each other), and gum things up. There is a bodger's trick of putting the whole machine (minus keytops, rubber parts, and if possible the motor) in a solvent bath to clean out the old lubricant and dirt, and then re-lubricating everything with a suitable oiler tool. Everything meaning bearings, etc. SOmewhaere I have a copy of a service manual for a hand-cranked mechanical calculator (I think a friend found it on a web site). It makes it _very_ clear that this is not the right thing to do, and that you should take it all apart, clean each part separately and put it back together again. Of course it's a lot easier to do that if you have the service manual... > > Most of the time, that's due to tracking across the impregnated fibre > > insulators used in things like the automatic on/off swtich. > > Aha, well I can isolate and test easy enough there without any severe > dismantling of things. Can anything be done to fix the problem (short of > making new insulators)? Clean off any oil (and especially graphited lubricants :-)). If you see visible tracking, scrape it off, if necessary cut into the insulator. Maybe bake the parts in a cool-ish oven. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 19:05:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 01:05:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 16, 5 10:58:23 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: [...] > > But I suspect that if I changed my name by deed poll to 'Sellam Ismail', > > it wouldn't help. > > It's not easy being me. It's not particularly easy being me either... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 19:22:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 01:22:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <1119009318.8308.31.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 17, 5 11:55:18 am Message-ID: > > On Fri, 2005-06-17 at 04:32 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Any tips for cleaning off the existing material? Isopropyl alcohol? > > Presumably the roller is secured by a circlip and you can remove it for No way... It's fixed to the motor spindle, and carries a tacho disk (with clear and black lines) at the lower end. This is hidden inside the plastic chassis of the tape drive, between a light bulb and a phototransistor. I've not had my 9825 apart for some time, but I can remember that you take out the complete tape drive unit, and then remove the screws holding the PCB and mechanism to the mouting bracket. The motor assembly is held in place by screws from the 'bottom; (non-cartridge-side) of the drive, but I can't remember if you have to desolder any wires to get it to come free enough. Then you can remove the setscrew(s) that hold the roller to the motor and pull it off the spindle. Problem is that the setscrews burr the spindle, and often the roller doesn't want to shift... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 19:53:58 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 01:53:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <42B349DE.6000606@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Jun 17, 5 05:08:30 pm Message-ID: > What I don't get - and this isn't flame bait, I really don't > understand - is the mania to preserve systems like S-100 sytems, big-box > Amigas, even PDP-11s, that very rarely show up in their factory > configuration. Oh, not this _again_.... I agree with you. Very few machines were unaltered between leaving the factory and getting to you. There is no good reason why they can't be altered some more... My views are simple. I will do modifications if they make the machine more useful. Obviously improving cooling airflow comes into this category. I will not substantially change the design (and this includes replacing linear PSUs with SMPSUs, for example), I won't make unnecessary mods. And I'll keep documentation of what I've done. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 17 20:16:32 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <42B2DB89.1020208@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <58903.207.145.53.202.1119057392.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Sellam wrote: > I set it up, powered it up, it came up to ready, so far so good. I > inserted a tape and hit load and it worked like a champ. So last night I > was attempting the next phase which was hooking it to a PC. The Adaptec > controller didn't see it on the SCSI chain. You were using an Adaptec HVD (differential) SCSI controller, I hope? Standard single-ended and LVD (low voltage differential) controllers won't work with an HVD drive like the 9348, unless you use one of the fairly rare SE/HVD adapters. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 19:55:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 01:55:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for a TU55/TC11 In-Reply-To: <47488.207.145.53.202.1119050808.squirrel@207.145.53.202> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 17, 5 04:26:48 pm Message-ID: > The TU56 existed in a single transport version, at least according to > some of the documentation, but I've never seen one. I have. In fact I can see one right now. My only TU56 (on the PDP8/e on my desk) is a single-drive version -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 19:48:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 01:48:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP11/23+ frustration In-Reply-To: <42B31A1D.5020707@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Jun 17, 5 08:44:45 pm Message-ID: > > Hi folks, > > today I have powered up my Ampex DFR 996 removable/fixed combined disk Argh! Powering up a devive (any device, but demountable hard disks are one of the worst) is the last thing you should do. And in the case of such a drive, I'd run the motors for at least 10 miuntes with the heads prevented from loading (e.g. with the voice coil disconnected from the servo amplifer) to 'purge' the air ducts, etc. > drive. After tweaking a bit around the address plug (btw does anybody > have an original one?) I got it to start. It said to be ready only once. > And made a horrible sound with the head of the removable disk. After > that I tried it again but the drive just inserts the head for a short > moment (with the same noise) and retracts immediately, shutting down. Presumably you have a head crash. And the drive can't find the servo information, so it retracts the heads. > Are there any opinions, spares, help, TOOLS for my situation? I have no > clue if I could be able to find a new pair of heads and install them? > Who has experience? What about the head alignment procedure? I've never seen this drive, but I have done head replacements on demountable hard disks. It's not too difficult (not much worse than doing a floppy drive). Of course you need the new heads. YEs, there's an alignment procedure. You generally have a special disk pack that you put n, then connect a 'scope to the outputs of the read preamplifier, and adjust the head position for even lobes of the catseye pattern. Just like a floppy drive in fact. Again the problem is getting the alignment pack. If you put good heads in, and they fly, you should be able to format/read/write a scratch disk, even before you do the alignment. I'd not put an alignment pack anywhere near a drive that didn't do that. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 17 20:20:27 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teletypes (was Re: Retrochallenge, 2005) In-Reply-To: <000601c57397$3a7d8e10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <42AF48DD.nail4UT1M5MNP@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <49231.207.145.53.202.1119051825.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <000601c57397$3a7d8e10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <59164.207.145.53.202.1119057627.squirrel@207.145.53.202> I wrote: > Anyone got docs on the Model 35ASR, or the 37 or 38? Jay wrote: > I have very complete docs on the 35 (as well as the 35 to go with). Do your 35 docs cover the ASR? Mine only cover the KSR and RO. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 17 20:22:06 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my computers, status In-Reply-To: <20050617165352.F2336@localhost> References: <20050617165352.F2336@localhost> Message-ID: <59318.207.145.53.202.1119057726.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tom wrote: > Just a quick note on why I've been silent on my DG Nova 4, LGP-21, > etc all summer... Since you're not in the southern hemisphere, I'm not sure what you mean. Summer doesn't start here in the northern hemisphere for another few days yet. Happy solstice! Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 17 20:29:21 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: References: <42B349DE.6000606@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Jun 17, 5 05:08:30 pm Message-ID: <59821.207.145.53.202.1119058161.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tony wrote: > I will not substantially change the design (and this includes > replacing linear PSUs with SMPSUs, for example), I may well replace the PSUs in a KL10 with SMPSUs. That reduces the operating costs by more than $30/day. Compuserve did this to their KL10s in the last 1970s and throughout the 1980s. Compuserve purportedly sold these mods to other DEC customers, and offered the design of their power system to DEC, hoping to buy them preconfigured that way. But DEC wasn't interested. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 17 20:31:01 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEXTstep web browsers In-Reply-To: References: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 16, 5 10:58:23 pm Message-ID: <59931.207.145.53.202.1119058261.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tony wrote: > It's not particularly easy being me either... Perhaps not, but you seem to be quite skilled at it. Eric From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 17 21:01:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my computers, status In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > > > I want to start on the LGP-21 this year. My Nova 4 experience has > > informed that project, so I have an inkling where to start now on > > the hardware bring-up. (Though I still don't have one inch of > > software for it.) > > The LGP-21 would make a great VCF exhibit ;) Speaking of which, VCF Midwest is going to be REALLY lame unless more people step forward with exhibit reigstrations. Is there a reason all you midwesterners are deciding not to participate? I hate this. For years I get whining about "when is there going to be a VCF Midwest" or "I can't make it to the west or east coast, how about a midwest event" or yada yada. Then we finally do a midwest event and it gets ignored. LAME! Step up people! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mbbrutman at brutman.com Fri Jun 17 21:11:54 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:11:54 -0500 Subject: Bernoulli Box (20 MB) Message-ID: <42B382EA.4040903@brutman.com> I've got a chance to pick up an older (but not the oldest Bernoulli Box). This is a single drive 20 MB unit that appears to the SCSI. There are no cartridges and it is unknown if it works, but the price is right. (Just shipping.) - Is it worth saving? - How are are cartridges to find? - Assuming the worst, is there a Sam's Computerfacts or other technical documentation for this beast? Thanks, Mike From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 21:34:49 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:34:49 -0500 Subject: PDP11/23+ frustration In-Reply-To: <20050617163638.P2336@localhost> References: <42B322D9.4020205@hachti.de> <20050617163638.P2336@localhost> Message-ID: On 6/17/05, Tom Jennings wrote: > There is another solution to the problem which I took -- reformat > the media. Of course this means instantaneous data loss. This is not an option for drives like the DEC RL01/RL02. The rest of the information applies, though (don't whack the heads, ensure they are clean, don't remount a crashed pack...) -ethan From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 21:45:26 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Eric Smith, when are you gonna pay me the money you owe me? In-Reply-To: <49425.64.139.41.130.1111106647.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <20050618024526.19317.qmail@web40906.mail.yahoo.com> Sorry to post this on CC, but I get no response from eric at brouhaha.com --- Eric Smith wrote: > I meant to email you yesterday. Apparently it > arrived a long time > ago, but the staff at Mail Boxes Etc. didn't put a > slip in my box, > so it went unnoticed until I specifically asked them > to try to find > it. So the postal service is not at fault this > time. > > I'll put a check in the mail to you tonight. > > Best regards, > Eric > > ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From gtoal at gtoal.com Fri Jun 17 21:50:41 2005 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:50:41 -0500 Subject: Is this an RK05? Can anyone read it? Message-ID: <42B38C01.mailFG151M4I@gtoal.com> > I have 3 working RK05 drives on my PDP-11/40 and have used them to > successfully read and copy the data from RK05 packs that had not been > spun up since the 1970s and early 1980s, but I guess I'm on the wrong > side of the ocean. Unfortunately so am I as I'm in Texas and the disk is in Scotland - that's the main reason I'm looking for a UK site to help, as otherwise I'ld grab it and hop on a plane to the Netherlands and take Fred up on his offer - it would seem fitting to return the pack to .NL after all these years :-) > Good luck with recovering the data. I know what it's like to finally recover > data from a pack that has been lying dormant for nearly 30 years. It's > quite an exciting feeling, especially if it's stuff that you or your associates > developed and you had once written it off as "lost forever". Yes it is. Our project (Edinburgh Computer History Project) has actually recovered four or five otherwise lost OS's already and every one has been a delight. We do have a few remaining which we're afraid really are gone forever, but there's at least 2, maybe 3, for which we have paper listings that we hope to get our hands on this year. Meanwhile I'm holding off on saying yes to Fred in the hope that someone within the UK has a working PDP11 that'll read the RK05. > Ashley By the way, while on the subject of PDP11's, is there anyone with experience of simh who would like to try to boot a system off some floppy images I have? I tried and failed. They're the 501Kb files in this directory: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/deimos/disk-images/ O/S documentation and source is here: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/history/BrianGilmore thanks to all who have responded; I'm replying off list to keep the noise down. Graham From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Jun 17 22:39:48 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:39:48 -0500 Subject: Altair Fan References: Message-ID: <001b01c573b7$649c9540$6092d6d1@Randy2> From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 7:53 PM >> What I don't get - and this isn't flame bait, I really don't >> understand - is the mania to preserve systems like S-100 sytems, big-box >> Amigas, even PDP-11s, that very rarely show up in their factory >> configuration. > > Oh, not this _again_.... > > I agree with you. Very few machines were unaltered between leaving the > factory and getting to you. There is no good reason why they can't be > altered some more... > > My views are simple. I will do modifications if they make the machine > more useful. Obviously improving cooling airflow comes into this > category. I will not substantially change the design (and this includes > replacing linear PSUs with SMPSUs, for example), I won't make unnecessary > mods. And I'll keep documentation of what I've done. > > -tony If you go to www.imsai.net you will find a file that contains several user supplied mods to the front panel. Imsai collected the mods and made them available to other customers. Cromemco had their own mods for the Z1. Modifying a classic system was normal a museum could show the system as factory original or modified to support a particular piece of hardware. Imsai and other manufacturers understood this, if you look at the Imsai MIO you will find more options than any other board I am aware of. I believe in keeping to the original but I also believe what the original was counts too. If a disk controller has a data separator added that's good. Some people repainted the cases (tan/brown was very popular), I would keep a tan/brown computer as is I might repaint it back to blue but I would never paint an original colored case to a non original color.. I take issue on some things like cutting holes or like a recent post removing a large filter cap and replacing it with two smaller caps, even changing screws when you still have the originals. If you need to replace something bad try to replace it with an original style piece. If it is unreliable or doesn't work fix it even if it means changing from the original, otherwise you just have a pretty boat anchor. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 17 22:08:35 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:08:35 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050617230835.00a13960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:32 AM 6/17/05 -0700, you wrote: > >I'm trying to repair the tape drive in an HP 9825. The roller has melted >(no surprise there). It seems like I could just get a bit of silicon >tubing or something that has the same diameter and guage as the existing >roller. > >I know this has been discussed before but I can't find any specific >messages (by the way, the CC archive search is broken, Jay). Can anyone >provide any tips or guidance so I don't have to re-learn mistakes already >made? > >Any tips for cleaning off the existing material? Isopropyl alcohol? That's what I've used. Any >thoughts of using heatshrink tubing and applying multiple layers until it >has the same thickness as the original roller? There are two problems with HS. One is that it's usually been MOL flattened and when you install it and shrink it in place the creases will always cause two ripples (yes, even if it wasn't squished completely flat). Sometimes the reader will still read and other times it won't due to the erratic speed. I used two layers of HS and staggered the creases 90d apart, that helps minimize the problem. The other problem is that the HS material really isn't very good for a tape drive. It's too hard and doesn't have a lot of traction and it also wears badly. I found the reader full of red dust around only a few uses. I used red heat shrink, it seemed to work better than the other types that I tried but YMMV. It works but it's far from ideal. You have to be careful to shrink it evenly. It has a tendency to do all the shrinking on the side nearest the heat source and that causes one side to be thicker than the other. You have to shrink it slowly and carefully and keep rotating it as you do. If you try it let me know how it works for you. Joe > >Thanks for any help. This will be a candidate for adding to the knowledge >base once I've successfully replaced the roller. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 17 22:28:24 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:28:24 -0400 Subject: PDP11/23+ frustration In-Reply-To: <42B322D9.4020205@hachti.de> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050617232824.00a43370@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:22 PM 6/17/05 +0200, you wrote: >Hi, > > >> it is a REALLY REALLY REALLY bad idea to just power old removable disk >> drives up to see if they will 'just work' >> as you discovered, THEY DON'T, and destroy themselves in the process >Yes.... :-( > >> look at the messages from Tom Jennings about all the trouble he had >> getting his going over the past few months >Hmpf, I forgot. Yes, he had some trouble with his Nova... > > > > 1) you now have a piece of junk >> that is most likely unrepairable unless you are VERY lucky and can >> clean the heads >Are there any tricks beyond Isopropanol? Yes, use Texwipes or other LINT-FREE wipes!!! One piece of lint and you're loooking at another head crash. You also need to perform this in a CLEAN room. Note I didn't say "cleanroom", just an ordinary room that is very clean. IMO you'll be very lucky if your drive head(s) and disk platter(s) aren't ruined. These old drives are VERY finicky, that's why I passed up the drives that I was offered with my PDP-8. I used to work in Field Service for Burroughs Corp and we were constantly having to repair these type drives even when they were used under ideal conditions. > >> 2) you've destroyed the disc pack (which may be >> difficult to repace) and >I have a few others.... Perhaps the drive has crashed before. Because >one of the packs is open and the disk has these nice concentric stripes.... Was that the pack that was in it when it made the noise? NEVER put any pack in a drive unless they both in perfect condition you'll probably damage both of them. > >Should I take the drive to the scrapyard immediately? IMO yes. But I hate those monster drives! But to be fair I'll tell you that it can almost certainly be fixed. Even though it's an odd brand unit, the drive and heads are almost certainly standard brand parts so it shouldn't be TOO hard to find replacements. But an alignment disk will cost about $300 and you'll need to service manual for the drive in order to realign it after replacing the head. I don't know what heads cost these days but they were about $100 each back in the mid 70s. Joe > > >Regards, >Philipp > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 17 22:30:01 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:30:01 -0400 Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <20050617130611.W57928@shell.lmi.net> References: <200506171756.KAA12303@clulw009.amd.com> <200506171756.KAA12303@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050617233001.00a47cc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:08 PM 6/17/05 -0700, Fran wrote: >On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> seemed to get no flow at all. Reversing the flow made >> a big difference. > >Ahhhh, >then you will need to make a sign to put on it to state that the air flow >has been changed from the "historical" :-) > Only if you're completely anal! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 18 02:30:01 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 03:30:01 -0400 Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <20050617130611.W57928@shell.lmi.net> References: <200506171756.KAA12303@clulw009.amd.com> <200506171756.KAA12303@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050618033001.00952450@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:08 PM 6/17/05 -0700, Fran wrote: >On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> seemed to get no flow at all. Reversing the flow made >> a big difference. > >Ahhhh, >then you will need to make a sign to put on it to state that the air flow >has been changed from the "historical" :-) > Only if you're completely anal! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 17 22:32:12 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:32:12 -0400 Subject: Number Nine Revolution graphics board In-Reply-To: <42B493F2.4030605@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050617233212.00952690@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I've had the boards but tossed them since I could never find drivers for them. Joe At 05:36 PM 6/18/05 -0400, you wrote: >Hello: >Any one have in the attic, garage, basement, etc an old Number Nine >Revolution graphics board from about 1983-1985? Or any dos drivers for >this board? >Regards: Jim Cox > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 17 22:46:59 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:46:59 -0400 Subject: PDP11/23+ frustration In-Reply-To: References: <42B31A1D.5020707@hachti.de> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050617234659.009528d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:48 AM 6/18/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Hi folks, >> >> today I have powered up my Ampex DFR 996 removable/fixed combined disk > >Argh! Powering up a devive (any device, but demountable hard disks are >one of the worst) is the last thing you should do. And in the case of >such a drive, I'd run the motors for at least 10 miuntes with the heads >prevented from loading (e.g. with the voice coil disconnected from the >servo amplifer) to 'purge' the air ducts, etc. When I was a FE I was real good at recovering data from damaged drives. After repairing everything I'd vacuum out the drive chamber thoroughly, then clean/replace filters, clean heads and platters, then run drive with head load disableed (voice coil disconnected), then clean heads and platters again and recheck the filters. Reconnect the voice coil and then power up the drive with my finger on the UNLOAD button and IMMEDIATELY unload the heads if they made any noise. > >> drive. After tweaking a bit around the address plug (btw does anybody >> have an original one?) I got it to start. It said to be ready only once. >> And made a horrible sound with the head of the removable disk. After >> that I tried it again but the drive just inserts the head for a short >> moment (with the same noise) and retracts immediately, shutting down. If the heads have crashed, they'll create enough drag on the disk that it will go into an underspeed condition and that will cause the heads to retract. It will do this even on drives that don't have servo info on the disk. > >Presumably you have a head crash. And the drive can't find the servo >information, so it retracts the heads. > > >> Are there any opinions, spares, help, TOOLS for my situation? I have no >> clue if I could be able to find a new pair of heads and install them? >> Who has experience? What about the head alignment procedure? > >I've never seen this drive, but I have done head replacements on >demountable hard disks. It's not too difficult (not much worse than doing >a floppy drive). Of course you need the new heads. > >YEs, there's an alignment procedure. You generally have a special disk >pack that you put n, then connect a 'scope to the outputs of the read >preamplifier, and adjust the head position for even lobes of the catseye >pattern. Just like a floppy drive in fact. Again the problem is getting >the alignment pack. > >If you put good heads in, and they fly, you should be able to >format/read/write a scratch disk, even before you do the alignment. I'd >not put an alignment pack anywhere near a drive that didn't do that. Yes! Definitely test the drive with a scratch disk before risking those expensive and hard to find alignment disk!!! Joe > >-tony > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 17 22:50:46 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:50:46 -0400 Subject: Bernoulli Box (20 MB) In-Reply-To: <42B382EA.4040903@brutman.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050617235046.00952b10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:11 PM 6/17/05 -0500, you wrote: >I've got a chance to pick up an older (but not the oldest Bernoulli >Box). This is a single drive 20 MB unit that appears to the SCSI. >There are no cartridges and it is unknown if it works, but the price is >right. (Just shipping.) > >- Is it worth saving? Well if you expect to be able to retire after selling it on E-bay you'll be disappointed but they're a nice example of mid 80's computer technology. I STILL miss the dual 20 Mb Bernoulli that I had. >- How are are cartridges to find? EASY, check E-bay. >- Assuming the worst, is there a Sam's Computerfacts or other technical >documentation for this beast? I've never seen any but those things are dammed near bullet proof and there's plenty of them available. Joe > > >Thanks, >Mike > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 18 02:50:46 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 03:50:46 -0400 Subject: Bernoulli Box (20 MB) In-Reply-To: <42B382EA.4040903@brutman.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050618035046.00952350@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:11 PM 6/17/05 -0500, you wrote: >I've got a chance to pick up an older (but not the oldest Bernoulli >Box). This is a single drive 20 MB unit that appears to the SCSI. >There are no cartridges and it is unknown if it works, but the price is >right. (Just shipping.) > >- Is it worth saving? Well if you expect to be able to retire after selling it on E-bay you'll be disappointed but they're a nice example of mid 80's computer technology. I STILL miss the dual 20 Mb Bernoulli that I had. >- How are are cartridges to find? EASY, check E-bay. >- Assuming the worst, is there a Sam's Computerfacts or other technical >documentation for this beast? I've never seen any but those things are dammed near bullet proof and there's plenty of them available. Joe > > >Thanks, >Mike > > > From vp at cs.drexel.edu Fri Jun 17 23:25:23 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:25:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <20050618042523.A17CA3BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> The 9825 tape drive is very similar (mechanically) to the HP-85 tape drive, so the following link will give you a couple of hints. http://www.series80.org/Articles/capstan-repair.html I mainly use the first method (suggested by Katie) and I have had very good and consistent results. BTW if you click on the pictures you get larger versions. ------------- Be VERY carefull when disassembling the drive, do not remove the screws that hold the top (black) cover to the base of the tape drive, there are a couple of little parts (plastic balls, I think) that will run away. The first time I took an HP-85 apart, I spent a lot of time hunting these damn parts. Anyway, you should be able to remove the capstan and motor assembly without taking the rest of the drive apart. You may need to unsolder the two little tachometer wires (but in some cases they are simply inserted into the PCB). Good luck **vp From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 18 00:35:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Presumably the roller is secured by a circlip and you can remove it for > > No way... Right. > It's fixed to the motor spindle, and carries a tacho disk (with clear > and black lines) at the lower end. This is hidden inside the plastic > chassis of the tape drive, between a light bulb and a phototransistor. Ok, I didn't realize all that was going on. > I've not had my 9825 apart for some time, but I can remember that you > take out the complete tape drive unit, and then remove the screws holding > the PCB and mechanism to the mouting bracket. The motor assembly is held > in place by screws from the 'bottom; (non-cartridge-side) of the drive, > but I can't remember if you have to desolder any wires to get it to come > free enough. Then you can remove the setscrew(s) that hold the roller to > the motor and pull it off the spindle. Problem is that the setscrews burr > the spindle, and often the roller doesn't want to shift... My experience differs, but then I may not have been paying adequate attention. I had to remove the three screws holding the PCB to the aluminum bracket so that I could get to the one screw (of three) that attached the tape unit to the rest of the chassis. Then I could remove the tape unit (after unplugging the cable). The aluminum bracket has two screws attaching it to the body of the tape unit. Once those are off, you can extract the aluminum bracket and get at the roller and read/write head. I couldn't figure out how to remove the motor so I left it in place. I couldn't find any of the recommended materials at the local hardware store (never even heard of Tygon) but I did find latex tubing, and I figured that would work just as well as anything. I cleaned off most of the old roller material and decided to leave in place what I couldn't scrape off to work as a sort of adhesive (that stuff is sticky). The latex tubing had a 1/4" inside diameter and a 3/8" outside diameter. The diameter of the spindle head is 3/8", so the tight fit gave it added traction. The thickness of the latex tubing is of course 1/8", which is about double the thickness of the original roller. But now the spindle was too thick and was wedged against the read/write head. So I got some sandpaper and attached a 9V supply to the motor and lathed it down about 1/32". Latex is difficult to cut straight so I also smoothed out the top and bottom of the ring. Latex boogers were all over the drive mechanism after that so I blew it out pretty good with compressed air. It now looked pretty nice; a little rough--a finer grit sandpaper was probably in order--but passable. I re-assembled everything and tested it. It had trouble at first: the drive would start up but then I'd get error 43 (unexpected BOT or EOT or tape error). I kept re-trying and eventually it seemed to work, but then I pulled the tape and examined it and it seemed like the tension loop inside had come undone. I opened the tape casing and, being an idiot, pulled it apart from the wrong side, and all the internal spindles fell out. So now I have a thoroughly scrambled tape that I now need to figure out how to re-assemble (I was supposed to be getting the data off this tape). Anyway, more work is in order. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Jun 18 00:42:55 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:42:55 -0500 Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: <58903.207.145.53.202.1119057392.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <42B2DB89.1020208@mdrconsult.com> <58903.207.145.53.202.1119057392.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <42B3B45F.2020302@mdrconsult.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam wrote: > >>I set it up, powered it up, it came up to ready, so far so good. I >>inserted a tape and hit load and it worked like a champ. So last night I >>was attempting the next phase which was hooking it to a PC. The Adaptec >>controller didn't see it on the SCSI chain. > > > You were using an Adaptec HVD (differential) SCSI controller, I hope? > Standard single-ended and LVD (low voltage differential) controllers > won't work with an HVD drive like the 9348, unless you use one of the > fairly rare SE/HVD adapters. OK, I'd like to ask, where did you get your info? All the reseller sites list the 9348-012 as SE, and the one piece of IBM documentation I've found lists some other drives as differential, but shows the 9348-012 as simply SCSI. Ahh, here, in comp.unix.aix, the recommended SCSI adapter for the 9348 on PCI RS/6000 is FC 6208. That's a single-end adapter. Doc From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 18 01:51:47 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 01:51:47 -0500 Subject: Archiving MFM and RLL drives In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050617084121.04677a18@mail> References: <7b8fd2408d4b45bd5dd0a2736a4936f9@bitsavers.org> <6.2.1.2.2.20050617084121.04677a18@mail> Message-ID: <42B3C483.2020603@oldskool.org> John Foust wrote: > At 01:14 AM 6/17/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >>Someone (I think Jules or Philip) figured out there's an option you can >>specify on the command line to tell dd to skip bad blocks and replace any >>bad sectors with zeroes. > > I tell ya, we've got to enlist Steve Gibson to make a classic-friendly > version of Spinrite to help recover disks that could be readable on > old and new PC-style floppy controllers, and save them to an image format. For the record, Spinrite 5 works on any machine (but there's a bug where it only works on 8088/8086 if you use DOS 5 or higher -- I've tried DOS 3.3 and 2.11 and it hangs). I use Spinrite 5 on my IBM 5150 all the time. (Spinrite 6 requires 386 or higher. Spinrites 1 through 4 work on any machine with any DOS version, but 5 is the fastest.) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 18 01:53:56 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 01:53:56 -0500 Subject: my computers, status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B3C504.3040400@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Is there a reason all you midwesterners are deciding not to participate? All my machines are "lame" (1982 and later) :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From waltje at pdp11.nl Sat Jun 18 03:08:17 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:08:17 +0200 (MEST) Subject: FAQ (Re: PDP11/23+ frustration) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050617232824.00a43370@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: People, Rather than (a) yelling at someone new for doing something WE know should not be done, and then (b) go on (at length) at WHAT SHOULD have been done, why dont all the experienced head-cleaners on here work together (OFF_LIST !) on producing a HOWTO on this subject: "HOWTO proceed with reviving an Old Disk Drive". That way, the result can be posted, forwarded, archived in the KB, so when people DO bump into this task, they WONT fuck up the disk by just powering it up, but, instead, follow that procedure. --f From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Jun 18 06:47:17 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:47:17 +0100 Subject: Archiving MFM and RLL drives In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050617084121.04677a18@mail> References: <7b8fd2408d4b45bd5dd0a2736a4936f9@bitsavers.org> <6.2.1.2.2.20050617084121.04677a18@mail> Message-ID: In message <6.2.1.2.2.20050617084121.04677a18 at mail> John Foust wrote: > I tell ya, we've got to enlist Steve Gibson to make a classic-friendly > version of Spinrite to help recover disks that could be readable on > old and new PC-style floppy controllers, and save them to an image format. I've never understood the attraction to Spinrite. I borrowed a friend's copy of SR6 a while ago - I used it on a 4gig Samsung IDE drive and a 10gig Maxtor, and it didn't recover anything off them.. just displayed the "Trying magic sooper-seekrit Dynastat data recovery.. oops, failed" window a lot. In fact, I think the error count actually went up - when it was finished with the Samsung, I rebooted and got a barrage of SMART Failure Imminent errors. I had more luck with Knoppix, "dd if=/dev/hdb of=/root/hdimage conv=noerror". Speaking of hard drives, I still need to replace the dead drive in my data recovery box. I'll probably end up getting a Seagate - Maxtor's quality control seems to have slipped a bit. That or they've designed a load of failure prone drives. Quantum's legacy, back with a vengeance. I've got an 80gig D740X here that's fine, a 20gig D740X that's rather noisy (should have RMA'd it when I had the chance - it's started throwing up SMART errors) and a 7850AV that refuses to die. Had one 40gig DM60+ fail (it had trouble spinning up), and an 8.45GB that required freezer treating, but that's it. The StorageReview reliability survey suggests Maxtors are getting worse, but I'm not so sure... There are a lot of "Failed within a month" entries on there with the same user ID... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Life shouldn't be an endless repetition of stale successes. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 18 08:02:23 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:02:23 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050618090223.009f03b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:35 PM 6/17/05 -0700, you wrote: >On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > Presumably the roller is secured by a circlip and you can remove it for >> >> No way... > >Right. > >> It's fixed to the motor spindle, and carries a tacho disk (with clear >> and black lines) at the lower end. This is hidden inside the plastic >> chassis of the tape drive, between a light bulb and a phototransistor. > >Ok, I didn't realize all that was going on. > >> I've not had my 9825 apart for some time, but I can remember that you >> take out the complete tape drive unit, and then remove the screws holding >> the PCB and mechanism to the mouting bracket. The motor assembly is held >> in place by screws from the 'bottom; (non-cartridge-side) of the drive, >> but I can't remember if you have to desolder any wires to get it to come >> free enough. Then you can remove the setscrew(s) that hold the roller to >> the motor and pull it off the spindle. Problem is that the setscrews burr >> the spindle, and often the roller doesn't want to shift... > >My experience differs, but then I may not have been paying adequate >attention. > >I had to remove the three screws holding the PCB to the aluminum bracket >so that I could get to the one screw (of three) that attached the tape >unit to the rest of the chassis. Then I could remove the tape unit (after >unplugging the cable). The aluminum bracket has two screws attaching it >to the body of the tape unit. Once those are off, you can extract the >aluminum bracket and get at the roller and read/write head. I couldn't >figure out how to remove the motor so I left it in place. > >I couldn't find any of the recommended materials at the local hardware >store (never even heard of Tygon) but I did find latex tubing, and I >figured that would work just as well as anything. I cleaned off most of >the old roller material and decided to leave in place what I couldn't >scrape off to work as a sort of adhesive (that stuff is sticky). The >latex tubing had a 1/4" inside diameter and a 3/8" outside diameter. The >diameter of the spindle head is 3/8", so the tight fit gave it added >traction. The thickness of the latex tubing is of course 1/8", which is >about double the thickness of the original roller. But now the spindle >was too thick and was wedged against the read/write head. So I got some >sandpaper and attached a 9V supply to the motor and lathed it down about >1/32". Latex is difficult to cut straight so I also smoothed out the top >and bottom of the ring. Latex boogers were all over the drive mechanism >after that so I blew it out pretty good with compressed air. It now >looked pretty nice; a little rough--a finer grit sandpaper was probably in >order--but passable. > >I re-assembled everything and tested it. It had trouble at first: the >drive would start up but then I'd get error 43 (unexpected BOT or EOT or >tape error). Check your tape! I'll bet that you'll find a spot where the media has come of the plastic tape and now leaves a clear spot. The EOT sensor sees the clear spot and thinks that it's the EOT hole. I kept re-trying and eventually it seemed to work, but then >I pulled the tape and examined it and it seemed like the tension loop >inside had come undone. I opened the tape casing and, being an idiot, >pulled it apart from the wrong side, and all the internal spindles fell >out. So now I have a thoroughly scrambled tape that I now need to figure >out how to re-assemble Good Luck! I've reassembled the tapes but I could never get them to tighten up the slack tape that was inside. The tapes are suppsoed to be selftightening but they won't tighten up for me. Joe Joe (I was supposed to be getting the data off this >tape). > >Anyway, more work is in order. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 18 10:10:18 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:10:18 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 CPU question Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050618111018.00a0cde0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I brought home my PDP-8 yesterday. Besides the goodies that I got from Thom for it I also dug around in the stuff that he sold to the surplus store and found MORE goodies. Like a pile of H851 jumpers, a >>16k<< core memory board (and driver/sense board) for the PDP-8, a set of Plessey RK-05 disk drive controller cards for the PDP-8, some DEC PDP-11/34 Programmer's Panels. I also visited Thom and dug through some old GR manuals that he was throwing out and found an Engineering package for the MM8 core memory cards, some docs for the Centronics 300 printer, docs for a Dilog card and more. I also dumped all the GR docs from the LONG three ring binders and I'll keep them and put the long DEC docs in them. Thanks Thom! I'll post a list of the docs as I go through them and see if anyone wants to scan them and post them (Al?). Or I can post them if someone will scan them. (I just do NOT have the time to scan stuff!) Anyway I've been reading the PDP-8a User's Manual and trying to figure out what all I have here and I have a question about the PDP-8 CPUs. DEC offered two different CPUs for the PDP-8, one is the KK8-A which is a single M8315 card. The other is the KK8-E which consist of an M8300 and M8310 cards which are the CPU and an M8320 Bus Loads card and a M8330 Timing Generator card. Can someone explain the differences between the two and why DEC offered two very different CPUs for the 8? Can I replace simply the M8300/8310/8320/8330 cards with the M8315? I also have a question about the diagnostic paper tapes. Does anyone have a ROM emulator or other way to load the diagnostics without using a PT reader? Yes, I know there are some SIMPLE diagnostics that can be loaded from the Programmer's Panal but I concerned about the more extensive diagnostics. In fact, I'm wondering if anyone has tried burning the diagnostics into PROMs and installing them in place of the Boot Roms on the M8317 card. Can anyone explain the purpose of the small card that plugs into the back of the chassis near the power regulators? It's not mentioned in the User's Manual and I don't even know it's name. Thom says that it controls the power and the machine will be completely dead if it fails but that's all that I know about it. Joe Joe From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 18 10:24:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bernoulli Box (20 MB) In-Reply-To: <42B382EA.4040903@brutman.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I've got a chance to pick up an older (but not the oldest Bernoulli > Box). This is a single drive 20 MB unit that appears to the SCSI. > There are no cartridges and it is unknown if it works, but the price is > right. (Just shipping.) > > - Is it worth saving? If you can use it. > - How are are cartridges to find? Not easy. > - Assuming the worst, is there a Sam's Computerfacts or other technical > documentation for this beast? I have the drivers for the stock Bernoulli interface. These are supposed to work with any SCSI card but I'm not so sure. I only always used the Bernoulli interface. I might have a manual. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 18 10:33:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bernoulli Box (20 MB) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050618035046.00952350@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >- How are are cartridges to find? > > EASY, check E-bay. The drives are common but there are few carthridge auctions. Still, I guess they are easier to find than I thought :) > >- Assuming the worst, is there a Sam's Computerfacts or other technical > >documentation for this beast? > > I've never seen any but those things are dammed near bullet proof and > there's plenty of them available. It took a bit of tinkering and figuring out the right combination of OS and drivers but I got mine working and was able to retrieve files off of about 18 a couple years back. They had very few errors between them. A very robust system. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cfandt at netsync.net Sat Jun 18 10:42:00 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:42:00 -0400 Subject: Modicon PLCs Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050618113439.02d6ea68@mail.netsync.net> Anybody here work with or are big fans of Modicon programmable controllers? (or are even collectors of same?) Specifically the 984-series. Sorta on-topic as the modules I have date back to 1993 and use Intel 80186 and 80188 uP chips, but PLCs are somewhat off-topic here. I haven't heard of any PLC-specific email lists except for a recently defunct one. Please contact me off-list as I have some questions and am looking for additional info. Thanks, Chris F. NNNN Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 18 10:36:44 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my computers, status In-Reply-To: <42B3C504.3040400@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Is there a reason all you midwesterners are deciding not to participate? > > All my machines are "lame" (1982 and later) :-) That excuse is certainly lame ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 18 10:50:06 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 CPU question Message-ID: <20050618155006.E453070C9F47@bitsavers.org> I'll post a list of the docs as I go through them and see if anyone wants to scan them and post them (Al?). -- Will coordinate this with you offline. I have a lot of 8 material scanned but not on line yet Can someone explain the differences between the two and why DEC offered two very different CPUs for the 8? Can I replace simply the M8300/8310/8320/8330 cards with the M8315? -- The M83xx set was the original Omnibus CPU (for the 8/e f and m) It is slightly faster than the single-board version. Does anyone have a ROM emulator or other way to load the diagnostics without using a PT reader? -- They can be loaded though the tty interface. Easiest thing to do is hook up a terminal program with unchecked binary download capability. From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jun 18 10:56:13 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:56:13 -0500 Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050618033001.00952450@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200506171756.KAA12303@clulw009.amd.com> <200506171756.KAA12303@clulw009.amd.com> <3.0.6.32.20050618033001.00952450@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618105350.052d40e8@mail> At 02:30 AM 6/18/2005, Joe R. wrote: >>then you will need to make a sign to put on it to state that the air flow >>has been changed from the "historical" :-) > Only if you're completely anal! Maybe this should be a new category at the VCF: Most properly tagged and archived PC. Take an old computer, change a few screws, clean the dust filters, wipe off original dirt, and then be sure to cover it in little tags and notes and cloth bags with strings containing the original screws. Perfectly archived, ready to survive the coming apocalypse. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jun 18 11:01:28 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:01:28 -0500 Subject: Archiving MFM and RLL drives In-Reply-To: <42B3C483.2020603@oldskool.org> References: <7b8fd2408d4b45bd5dd0a2736a4936f9@bitsavers.org> <6.2.1.2.2.20050617084121.04677a18@mail> <42B3C483.2020603@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618110023.0532c870@mail> At 01:51 AM 6/18/2005, Jim Leonard wrote: >For the record, Spinrite 5 works on any machine (but there's a bug where it only works on 8088/8086 if you use DOS 5 or higher -- I've tried DOS 3.3 and 2.11 and it hangs). I use Spinrite 5 on my IBM 5150 all the time. Yes, but it would be great if we had a version that saved its recovered data to a separate disk image file, as opposed to trying to write it back to the Historically Accurate(TM) floppy. At 06:47 AM 6/18/2005, Philip Pemberton wrote: >I've never understood the attraction to Spinrite. I borrowed a friend's copy >of SR6 a while ago - I used it on a 4gig Samsung IDE drive and a 10gig >Maxtor, and it didn't recover anything off them.. It's not supposed to be the Baby Jesus, it's just a tool in one's arsenal. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jun 18 11:02:43 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:02:43 -0500 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618105837.052de260@mail> At 12:35 AM 6/18/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I couldn't find any of the recommended materials at the local hardware >store (never even heard of Tygon) but I did find latex tubing, and I >figured that would work just as well as anything. Tygon is the clear tubing you might find in a chemistry lab. I don't think the clear stuff at the hardware store is Tygon. Around here, the (dairy) farm supply stores carry a wider assortment of tubing than the hardware stores. Where did you find latex tubing? A medical-ish source? - John From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 18 11:07:10 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: board on the back of the 8/a backplane Message-ID: <20050618160710.E50F770C9F51@bitsavers.org> is a G8019 "Power Distribution Board Control" schms on pg 0-61 of bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/PDP8A_Schems_Apr81.pdf From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Jun 18 11:11:12 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:11:12 -0400 Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618105350.052d40e8@mail> References: <3.0.6.32.20050618033001.00952450@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200506171756.KAA12303@clulw009.amd.com> <200506171756.KAA12303@clulw009.amd.com> <3.0.6.32.20050618033001.00952450@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050618120545.03c9dfe0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Foust may have mentioned these words: >At 02:30 AM 6/18/2005, Joe R. wrote: > >>then you will need to make a sign to put on it to state that the air flow > >>has been changed from the "historical" :-) > > Only if you're completely anal! > >Maybe this should be a new category at the VCF: Most properly >tagged and archived PC. Take an old computer, change a few screws, >clean the dust filters, wipe off original dirt, and then be sure >to cover it in little tags and notes and cloth bags with strings >containing the original screws. Don't forget the cloth bag containing the original dirt! ;^> Or... Take the dirt down to your local biometrics testing lab, and have a full DNA workup done on it - you could use that as a "previous owner provenance." Bwaaahaaahaaahaaahaaa!!! > Perfectly archived, ready to survive the coming apocalypse. Taco-lips? Nah, I had duck last nite. (tho I did have guacamole & chips for a snack afterwards... ;-) Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 18 11:12:30 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RL8/a Message-ID: <20050618161230.019C570C9F5B@bitsavers.org> Joe, something to watch for in the boards are RL8/a controllers M8433 and cables BC80J They show up on eBay from time to time but go for a fair amount there. From vrs at msn.com Sat Jun 18 11:16:08 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:16:08 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 CPU question References: <3.0.6.32.20050618111018.00a0cde0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > Anyway I've been reading the PDP-8a User's Manual and trying to figure > out what all I have here and I have a question about the PDP-8 CPUs. DEC > offered two different CPUs for the PDP-8, one is the KK8-A which is a > single M8315 card. The other is the KK8-E which consist of an M8300 and > M8310 cards which are the CPU and an M8320 Bus Loads card and a M8330 > Timing Generator card. Can someone explain the differences between the two > and why DEC offered two very different CPUs for the 8? Can I replace > simply the M8300/8310/8320/8330 cards with the M8315? The M8300/10/20/30 cardset is quad-height, and will fit in (was originally designed for) an 8/e/f/m backplane. The M8315 is hex-height, and will only fit in an 8/a backplane. The nice thing about it is that it has more features and less slots. (I think you'll still need the bus terminator card, though.) > I also have a question about the diagnostic paper tapes. Does anyone have > a ROM emulator or other way to load the diagnostics without using a PT > reader? Yes, I know there are some SIMPLE diagnostics that can be loaded > from the Programmer's Panal but I concerned about the more extensive > diagnostics. In fact, I'm wondering if anyone has tried burning the > diagnostics into PROMs and installing them in place of the Boot Roms on the > M8317 card. I'd configure the ROM to boot to RIM (or is it BIN?) loader, and use the console interface to talk to a PC and download the binary images. Anyone done this? If you have a programmer's panel, you can just enter the RIM loader by hand, and go from there. > Can anyone explain the purpose of the small card that plugs into the back > of the chassis near the power regulators? It's not mentioned in the User's > Manual and I don't even know it's name. Thom says that it controls the > power and the machine will be completely dead if it fails but that's all > that I know about it. Does it have a part number on it? (I haven't looked too hard at the power supply side of mine yet.) Vince From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 18 11:29:54 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:29:54 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 CPU question Message-ID: <0IIA00DFRGHTKSQ7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: PDP-8 CPU question > From: "Joe R." > Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:10:18 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>>>>>>>>>Some snippage done...<<<<<<<<<< Hi Joe, Welcome to the dark side. ;) The pdp-8 family is the most widely copied archetecture, home brewed and sought after. Its a simple machine that really does put an underscore on less is more. It's a great programming experience and it's IO while very strange by microprocessor standards is one of the simplest yet powerful. If you can find a bare proto board building IO for the -8 omnibus machines is straightforward (as easy as S100, maybe easier!) with DEC docs to lead the way. RE: docs, there are some on line already as well as PDP-8 software including the various "tapes". > Anyway I've been reading the PDP-8a User's Manual and trying to figure >out what all I have here and I have a question about the PDP-8 CPUs. DEC >offered two different CPUs for the PDP-8, one is the KK8-A which is a >single M8315 card. The other is the KK8-E which consist of an M8300 and >M8310 cards which are the CPU and an M8320 Bus Loads card and a M8330 >Timing Generator card. Can someone explain the differences between the two >and why DEC offered two very different CPUs for the 8? Can I replace >simply the M8300/8310/8320/8330 cards with the M8315? 4 quad wide boards with over the top connectors vs one or two hex width. Functionally they are about the same. the 4 board set however is a tiny bit faster. The 4board set is the older PDP-8e/f/m quad style omnibus while the hex are the newer 8A style. > I also have a question about the diagnostic paper tapes. Does anyone have >a ROM emulator or other way to load the diagnostics without using a PT >reader? Yes, I know there are some SIMPLE diagnostics that can be loaded >from the Programmer's Panal but I concerned about the more extensive >diagnostics. In fact, I'm wondering if anyone has tried burning the >diagnostics into PROMs and installing them in place of the Boot Roms on the >M8317 card. You could but only to the extent that you'd then have to copy to core for execution. ROM on PDP-8 is a tricky thing as subroutine calls (JSR instruction) puts the return address at the first word of the subroutine. Hard to do that in ROM {yes DEC did have a rom/ram board to fake that.} The upside is with 16k or more of core (which on power down never forgets.) you can load core and copy it around. > Can anyone explain the purpose of the small card that plugs into the back >of the chassis near the power regulators? It's not mentioned in the User's >Manual and I don't even know it's name. Thom says that it controls the >power and the machine will be completely dead if it fails but that's all >that I know about it. Ok that must be a PDP-8a box (hex wide). Its still omnibus (as is the 8e/f/m) but allows for the 8a cpu and other wide cards. That card if memory serves is the sense amp and for the power supply. There are a number of sites for the PDP-8 family on the net. Huge resource. Start with http://www.pdp8.net and from there you find links to a bunch of other sites that are also noteworthy. Good luck, enjoy. Allison From hachti at hachti.de Sat Jun 18 11:35:18 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:35:18 +0200 Subject: PDP-8 CPU question In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050618111018.00a0cde0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42B44D46.9@hachti.de> > I'd configure the ROM to boot to RIM (or is it BIN?) loader, and use the > console interface to talk to a PC and download the binary images. Anyone > done this? In my PDP8/L I keyed in the RIM loader by hand and use it with RIM-compatible binaries from my PC. Have connected a TTY/RS232 converter and speeded the TTY port up to 9600 baud (needs some capacitor changes and adjustments with the scope). I also have written a simple tool which converts octal listings into rim compatible data and back. That's all very simple and handy. It is also easy to use the BIN loader over the serial port. Feel free to ask me personally...... Regards, Philipp :-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 11:44:59 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:44:59 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 CPU question In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050618111018.00a0cde0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050618111018.00a0cde0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 6/18/05, Joe R. wrote: > Anyway I've been reading the PDP-8a User's Manual and trying to figure > out what all I have here and I have a question about the PDP-8 CPUs. DEC > offered two different CPUs for the PDP-8, one is the KK8-A which is a > single M8315 card. The other is the KK8-E which consist of an M8300 and > M8310 cards which are the CPU and an M8320 Bus Loads card and a M8330 > Timing Generator card. Can someone explain the differences between the two > and why DEC offered two very different CPUs for the 8? Can I replace > simply the M8300/8310/8320/8330 cards with the M8315? The biggest differences between the KK8A and KK8E are... o KK8E can take an EAE, the KK8A cannot o KK8E is 1.2 uS per cycle, KK8A is 1.5 uS o KK8A takes one hex slot, KK8E takes 4 quad slots. There may be an OPR instruction difference here and there, but unless you have some weird software that really depends on what CPU it's running on, that won't make a huge difference. I have no idea about relative cost, new, but I'm sure back in the day, there was a price differential which may have affected a purchase or two. So unless you have a burning reason to go with a KK8A, I would think that if you already have a KK8E, you might want to stick with it. > I also have a question about the diagnostic paper tapes. Does anyone have > a ROM emulator or other way to load the diagnostics without using a PT > reader? Yes, I know there are some SIMPLE diagnostics that can be loaded > from the Programmer's Panal but I concerned about the more extensive > diagnostics. In fact, I'm wondering if anyone has tried burning the > diagnostics into PROMs and installing them in place of the Boot Roms on the > M8317 card. I think the boot proms are too tiny to hold any meaningful diagnostics - 32 words per switch position? (4 boot devices per ROM set, IIRC) By the time you are getting into instruction set tests, etc, you are at the few-hundred-word size. By the time the M8317 had come out, DEC had shifted their emphasis from running extensive paper-tape tests in the field to booting XXDP (PDP-11) and whatever the floppy-based PDP-8 diag suite was called If it couldn't boot the floppy, there were only a couple of boards to swap, so they opened up their field-service suitcase, replaced as much of the processor as required, got the customer running again, then sent the boards off to the depot for diagnosis and repair offline. There's no reason you _couldn't_ build a PROM emulator, but at that stage you might as well turn a modern machine into a paper tape emulator and do it that way. > Can anyone explain the purpose of the small card that plugs into the back > of the chassis near the power regulators? It's not mentioned in the User's > Manual and I don't even know it's name. Thom says that it controls the > power and the machine will be completely dead if it fails but that's all > that I know about it. Hmm... I don't recognize it from your description... could you post a picture of it? -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 11:47:21 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:47:21 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 CPU question In-Reply-To: <0IIA00DFRGHTKSQ7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IIA00DFRGHTKSQ7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 6/18/05, Allison wrote: > You could but only to the extent that you'd then have to copy to core > for execution. ROM on PDP-8 is a tricky thing as subroutine calls > (JSR instruction) puts the return address at the first word of the > subroutine. Hard to do that in ROM {yes DEC did have a rom/ram > board to fake that.} I think in this case, the JSR/ROM issue is moot... doesn't the M8317 'toggle' the boot into low core? I didn't think M8317 PROMs were memory mapped. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 11:50:05 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:50:05 -0500 Subject: RL8/a In-Reply-To: <20050618161230.019C570C9F5B@bitsavers.org> References: <20050618161230.019C570C9F5B@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 6/18/05, Al Kossow wrote: > > Joe, something to watch for in the boards are RL8/a controllers > M8433 and cables BC80J > > They show up on eBay from time to time but go for a fair amount > there. I have never seen them on eBay, but I have bought them from DEC resellers (my first one was in the 1980s and it cost me $600 for the set!) BTW, thinking of that RL8A, I have the prints for it... Al, are those on bitsavers? -ethan From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 18 11:52:09 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:52:09 -0400 Subject: DEC Docs: the list Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050618125209.00952600@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Here's a list of the docs that I picked up yesteday. It does not include anything from the BIG haul Monday. Book 1: Printronix Model 300 Printer Maintenance Manual Printronix Model 300 Printer Drawing Manual Printronix Model 300 Applications Manual Book 2: (Phoenix Drive Manual) Cartridge Module Drive (OEM) Hardware Maintenance Manual: Operation, Installation and Checkout, Theory of Operation, diagrams, Maintenance, Wire Lists; Control Data Corporation (pub number 77683335.) Book 3: same as book 2 Book 4: same as Book 2. (pub number 75888415 covers model 9448) Book 5: same as Book 4. Book 6: PDP8/e, pdp8f & pdpd8/m external Bus options maintenance manual volume 3: DEC Book 7. EDT Editor Manual: DEC Book 8. CDC Storage Module Drive BK6xx BK7xx: Installation and Checkout, Preventative Maintenance, Corrective Maintenance, Diagrams, Wire Lists, Parts Data; Control Data Corporation (pub number 83322310) White Envelope: Printer Operators Manual (2) and shipping papers: Printronix loose: KL8-JA Terminal Control/Syncronous Data Interface Technical manaul, DEC PDP-8 Digital PDP-8/a Miniprocessor User's Manual Machine Language Programming - PDP-8 Appendix E, The RSX-11M I/O Exerciser Timing Control Unit TCU-150: Digital Pathways Model DQ130 Magnetic Tape Coupler Instruction Manual: Dilog (LSI-11 interface to "Industry Standard" 9 track tape drive systems.) PC Maintenance and Troubleshooting: GenRad (Setup instructions for DECpc 433 and MANY interface cards) RSX-11 Utilities Manual: DEC (RSX-11M V 3.2 and RSX-11M Plus V 1.0) MDB-LP11 Line Prtinter Controller Instruction Manual: MDB Systems (Complete manual for interface card) Falcon RAID Sub-System Guide: Falcon Systems Falcon Systems Technical Guide: Falcon Systems B-Series Line Printers Models B300/B600 Operators Guide (3): DataProducts 300 LPM/600 LPM/1000 LPM Accoustic Cabinet Line Printers Maintenance Guide Volume 1: DataProducts RAID Mylex 5FH Product Information: Falcon Systems Corporate Guide: Falcon Systems The RAIDbook, A Source book for Disk Array Technology: RAB Model 4400 T&M (Theory and Maintenance) Manual: Factron Schumberger (manual for the 4400 board test system which is based on a Cromemco S-100 computer and LS ADM-3A terminal) Long Binder #1. DKC8-A Engineering Drawings: DEC (Complete package for 8/A Option 1 (M8316)) BA8-C Drawings: DEC (Complete drawing package for PDP-8 chassis assembly including wiring, PSU etc) MM8-EJ Engineering Drawings: DEC (package for 16k core memory system for PDP-8) KK8-F Field Maintenance Print Set: DEC (package for KK8-F CPU used in the PDP-8. Includes M8300/M8310/M8320/M8330 drawings) From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 18 11:55:18 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:55:18 -0400 Subject: RL8/a In-Reply-To: <20050618161230.019C570C9F5B@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050618125518.009ac820@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I wish you'd said something a few days ago. Thom send SIX large Gaylord boxs of cables to the shredder yesterday! :-( You might want to call or E-mail Thom about the controllers. He's moving and he's willing to deal! Joe At 09:12 AM 6/18/05 -0700, you wrote: > >Joe, something to watch for in the boards are RL8/a controllers >M8433 and cables BC80J > >They show up on eBay from time to time but go for a fair amount >there. > From bqt at Update.UU.SE Sat Jun 18 12:54:20 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 19:54:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-8 CPU question In-Reply-To: <200506181609.j5IG8ess090666@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506181609.j5IG8ess090666@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 "Joe R." wrote: > Anyway I've been reading the PDP-8a User's Manual and trying to figure > out what all I have here and I have a question about the PDP-8 CPUs. DEC > offered two different CPUs for the PDP-8, one is the KK8-A which is a > single M8315 card. The other is the KK8-E which consist of an M8300 and > M8310 cards which are the CPU and an M8320 Bus Loads card and a M8330 > Timing Generator card. Can someone explain the differences between the two > and why DEC offered two very different CPUs for the 8? Can I replace > simply the M8300/8310/8320/8330 cards with the M8315? The KK8A cpu takes a single slot, while you need a total of four for the KK8E, which obviously is an advantage, especially in a small 8/a system, where you only have 12 slots. The KK8E have a 1.2uS cycle time, while the KK8A have 1.5uS. Also, the KK8E can be extended with the EAE option, while the KK8A cannot. The KK8A is also microprogrammed. Might be harder to repair (depending on what is broken) but it might also be a bit more reliable. It probably draws a bit less as well. You can replace one with the other. Instruction wise, they are totally compatible. There are some undocumented stuff that they behave differently on, so you can from software tell which CPU you have, but in normal life, it don't make a difference. > I also have a question about the diagnostic paper tapes. Does anyone have > a ROM emulator or other way to load the diagnostics without using a PT > reader? Yes, I know there are some SIMPLE diagnostics that can be loaded > from the Programmer's Panal but I concerned about the more extensive > diagnostics. In fact, I'm wondering if anyone has tried burning the > diagnostics into PROMs and installing them in place of the Boot Roms on the > M8317 card. The boot roms hold very little data, and they simulate the front panel signals for loading into memory. I think you have a total of 64 words, or something like that. > Can anyone explain the purpose of the small card that plugs into the back > of the chassis near the power regulators? It's not mentioned in the User's > Manual and I don't even know it's name. Thom says that it controls the > power and the machine will be completely dead if it fails but that's all > that I know about it. Not sure what you're talking about here. The power regulators for the 8/a have a card-like connector, which you have the mate for on the rear side of the backplane. I suppose you're talking about those. Otherwise I have no idea. The power regulators are neccesary, otherwise nothing works. The core memory for the 8/a also require some voltages on the fifth slot in the backplane, which don't exist on an 8/e. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From alberto at a2sistemi.it Sat Jun 18 13:16:20 2005 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:16:20 +0200 Subject: Fairchild F8 Evaluation board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yesterday I have save this evaluation board, for the Faichild F8 microprocessor, marked F8S-PDM 1971 http://www.retrocomputing.net/phpengine/scheda/sch2005.php/Language=ITA/Mode =Display/Item=1280/Letter=F/Marca=205/Pagina=Fotografie (link all on a single line) Google has information about F8, but not about this board. Anyone has documentation on this board ? Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax 0321 391769 Il mio museo di vecchi computers/My old computers museum http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 ODIGO : 5269083 ------------------------------------------------------ From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 18 13:12:44 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618105350.052d40e8@mail> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 02:30 AM 6/18/2005, Joe R. wrote: > >>then you will need to make a sign to put on it to state that the air flow > >>has been changed from the "historical" :-) > > Only if you're completely anal! > > Maybe this should be a new category at the VCF: Most properly > tagged and archived PC. Take an old computer, change a few screws, > clean the dust filters, wipe off original dirt, and then be sure > to cover it in little tags and notes and cloth bags with strings > containing the original screws. Perfectly archived, ready to > survive the coming apocalypse. While not explicitly stated in the rules (perhaps it should be) this sort of documentation is taken into account by the judges. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 18 13:14:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618105837.052de260@mail> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 12:35 AM 6/18/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >I couldn't find any of the recommended materials at the local hardware > >store (never even heard of Tygon) but I did find latex tubing, and I > >figured that would work just as well as anything. > > Tygon is the clear tubing you might find in a chemistry lab. > I don't think the clear stuff at the hardware store is Tygon. It's not, it's vinyl. I wouldn't recommend vinyl (too stiff and probably breaks down over time faster and more so than other materials). > Where did you find latex tubing? A medical-ish source? Lowes. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 18 13:32:13 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RL8/a Message-ID: <20050618183213.B242170C9F74@bitsavers.org> BTW, thinking of that RL8A, I have the prints for it... Al, are those on bitsavers? -- bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/ I wish you'd said something a few days ago. Thom send SIX large Gaylord boxs of cables to the shredder yesterday! :-( -- Cables are MUCH more difficult to find than the boards themselves! esp things like the cable that goes from a TD8/E to a TU56 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 18 13:38:14 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:38:14 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <0IIA00H95MFODGX7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive > From: Vintage Computer Festival > Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:14:21 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Tygon is the clear tubing you might find in a chemistry lab. >> I don't think the clear stuff at the hardware store is Tygon. Its a brand of Vinyl. I'm the one that posted maybe ten years ago about using Tygon Vinyl to repair the gooey rollers of TU-58 drives. I can say for a fact that those drives so repaired still work fine. The only problem I've found over time is flat spotting if the tape is left in place. Even if it did harden in say five years.. a foot of that is enough to fix a few dozen drives easily and it's widely available in both thick and thin wall types. Allison From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jun 18 13:50:22 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:50:22 -0400 Subject: Spare BYTEs available Message-ID: <000101c57436$9505f9e0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: Before I resort to eBay, I wanted to post a list of my spare BYTE magazines, by year: 1975: 11, 12 1976: 1, 3, 4, 9 1977: 2, 3, 10, 11, 12 1978: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9 1979: 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12 1980: 1, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 1981: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 1983: 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 1985: 3, 4, 5, 7, 11, 12 These are available for a trade plus shipping. I'm looking for the following: * BYTEs: 12/76, 1/77, 6/80 (this will give me a complete run from 9/75 to 1/86) * S-100 PROM board that takes EPROMS more dense than 2708s * Altair/IMSAI software * AIM-65 diagnostics ROM * Other??? Please contact me off-list. This grouping of BYTEs will give someone a good head start developing his/her collection. I also have an Excel spreadsheet that has a listing of 700 or so relevant/interesting articles for those maintaining and working with classic computers. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 14:00:40 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:00:40 -0400 Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading Message-ID: I'm having a hell of a time getting any program to load, so far I've been Totally unsuccessful. Anyone have any tips or advice they can throw at me? Would love to hear anything at all :) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 14:17:28 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:17:28 -0500 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <0IIA00H95MFODGX7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IIA00H95MFODGX7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 6/18/05, Allison wrote: > I'm the one that posted maybe ten years ago about using Tygon Vinyl > to repair the gooey rollers of TU-58 drives. I can say for a fact > that those drives so repaired still work fine. The only problem > I've found over time is flat spotting if the tape is left in place. > > Even if it did harden in say five years.. a foot of that is enough > to fix a few dozen drives easily and it's widely available in both > thick and thin wall types. I'll second that - I've refurbishd several drives over the years... the vinyl tubing works great! -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 18 14:55:26 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:55:26 -0400 Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading Message-ID: <0IIA00J77Q0E310A@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading > From: Gary Sparkes > Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:00:40 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I'm having a hell of a time getting any program to load, so far I've been >Totally unsuccessful. > >Anyone have any tips or advice they can throw at me? >Would love to hear anything at all :) > First make sure the tape player is on speed. You'd be surprized how many are off by 2-5%. Next volume level may be critical, note that some tape players do not work well if the headphone connection does not load the amplifier adaquately. The tone control if present should be such that there is no high cut (high frequencies are important!). Lastly the head should be cleaned and properly aligned or the high frequency responce will suffer. What I've seen in previous forays into this stuff since 1975. Tape player ills: Weak batteries (slow play speed and distortion). Extremely poor quality machine (just plain bad). Worn heads (no highs at all). Amplifier that was oscillating at ~25+khz due to lack of speaker load and bad design. Tape that was bad, stretched or binding affecting speed. Bad tape, flaking oxide. Bad tape, actually it was blank. Pinch rollers with flatspots. Bad motor, ran slow. Also one that ran fast. Motor noise in audio ouput, bad motor. Motorboating due to bad cap in power supply (on a battery unit!). Unit that had been dropped had bad azmuth alignment on head resulting in no highs and lack of level in general. This can also happen if the tape is not in place and the play button is forced. I've seen heads broken off mounts due to that. Bad earphone jack (no output). One found to have a playback amp so noisy that you could barely hear loud passeages on a music tape at all. Stuck in record! That one runied a few of the owners tapes! One that didn't like a common ground between the mic, motor or speaker(earphone jacks). It would motorboat if that was done. System ills: Input circuit literally blown up. (user plugged in a 12Vac adaptor that had the right connector). Input jack broken free of the board. Input opamp dead (age or random failure). System broke and needed mod (TRS80 LII hangup). Just a few hints there. Likely I forgot a few. Allison From hachti at hachti.de Sat Jun 18 15:21:29 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:21:29 +0200 Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on Message-ID: <42B48249.7070409@hachti.de> Hi, thank you all for the tips around my harddrive desaster. Next time I will be wiser. I have cleaned my removable disk's heads. Used isopropanol and a match. Tried the crashed disk pack, crashed again immediately. Had to clean one head again. Took another pack. No crash, no error display etc. Hope that it stays ok. Now I did: > $dm4 .. And dm0,1,2,3 work same way.... Computer says: > > **THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM *** > > 000034 > @ I would be glad if that is a message read from the disk partitions (like the bootsector message on non-system disks in my pc). When I boot dm5 (the Emulex controller configuration emulates 6 RK06 drives, don't know which one is the removable pack) the disk does something (little seek operations), endlessly. Busy light on the controller nearly always on and the disk seeks around one position. Endlessly. No error indication. When I stop the CPU, controller and disk activity also stop. When I let the CPU resume it goes on and on and on. What's that? A strange program? I have waited for nearly 10 minutes without any visible reaction. Seems to be reproducable. What is the "modern way" to get software into the PDP11? Is there anything like a RIM or BIN loader? Has anybody a convenient solution - or do I have to start from scratch writing my own tools? Best regards, Philipp :-) From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 18 15:30:01 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on Message-ID: <20050618203001.6FD4470C9F8D@bitsavers.org> > What is the "modern way" to get software into the PDP11? I use a ZIP drive and a Qbus MSCP disc controller. A software-only solution (though much slower) is to use the TU58 simulation software that is around From tomj at wps.com Sat Jun 18 15:37:10 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teletypes (was Re: Retrochallenge, 2005) In-Reply-To: <000601c57397$3a7d8e10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <42AF48DD.nail4UT1M5MNP@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <49231.207.145.53.202.1119051825.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <000601c57397$3a7d8e10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20050618133552.T2336@localhost> On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Jay West wrote: > Eric wrote... >> Anyone got docs on the Model 35ASR, or the 37 or 38? > > I have very complete docs on the 35 (as well as the 35 to go with). The greenkeys crowd pooled their Teletype manuals and put out some big DVDs with everything on it. I have a set. Al Kossow, did I not give you a copy? It would be like me to mentally check-off the job as done after merely thinking about it. Reality is overrated. From tomj at wps.com Sat Jun 18 15:39:26 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FAQ (Re: PDP11/23+ frustration) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050618133737.O2336@localhost> On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Rather than (a) yelling at someone new for doing something WE know > should not be done, and then (b) go on (at length) at WHAT SHOULD > have been done, why dont all the experienced head-cleaners on here > work together (OFF_LIST !) on producing a HOWTO on this subject: > "HOWTO proceed with reviving an Old Disk Drive". > > That way, the result can be posted, forwarded, archived in the KB, > so when people DO bump into this task, they WONT fuck up the disk > by just powering it up, but, instead, follow that procedure. I agree -- get to it Fred! :-) Seriously, I will gladly munge my notes. THere were a few non-complaining replies in the recent thread, they'd be a good start. PS: Fred, R U getting my emails? It seems you are not. I got only your recent inquiring re: mail. I replied to the ones I got. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 18 15:41:59 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teletypes (was Re: Retrochallenge, 2005) Message-ID: <20050618204159.6DFC870C9F96@bitsavers.org> > Al Kossow, did I not give you a copy? nope. I did put some tty manuals up on bitsavers that I had. From tomj at wps.com Sat Jun 18 15:57:00 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on (and submission for FAQ) In-Reply-To: <42B48249.7070409@hachti.de> References: <42B48249.7070409@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20050618133946.R2336@localhost> On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > thank you all for the tips around my harddrive desaster. Next time I will be > wiser. > I have cleaned my removable disk's heads. Used isopropanol and a match. > Tried the crashed disk pack, crashed again immediately. Had to clean one head > again. Took another pack. No crash, no error display etc. Hope that it stays > ok. You're very lucky! Even though you are not having a problem now, I would spend $50 on real cleaning materials. Here's what I suggest (others will suggest other things). Mail order this stuff, you're unlikely to find it retail (though Fry's Electronics here in Fornicalia carries some of this stuff): * 99% anhydrous alcohol -- NOT drug-store alcohol. About $7/quart * KIM wipes or equiv 100% lint free bonded/tangle-weave wipes. $10 * Nylon-covered, fat foam swabs on sticks. $5/$10 * Craft sticks $5 * Disposable nylon gloves $? * can of "air" (photo supply store) $10 (The gloves I was never able to find less than 1000 quantity; I used non-powdered 8-mil latex, and washed them with alcohol/kimwipes after I put them on. However flawed, it's gotta beat oily finger prints. Cotton gloves are lint generators, might as well use dryer lint.) You need to clean the platters of the GOOD disks, before the become CRASHED disks. Here's how I did it: Before you start prep first. It takes 3 - 5 minutes. Using window cleaner or other simple cleaner, wipe off the exterior of the disk drive, disk pack, the table or whatever you will work on, and wash all you tools. Clean everything you'll be touching or will be near. NO DUST. Lay a few sheets of clean, unused paper on the table. If you end up with something delicate in your hand you'll ahve a place to put it. The alternative is juggling or dropping it. (This is a car trick but it's cheap and easy.) Get access to a pack. With gloved hands, dampen folded kimwipes (alcohol) and wipe gently the parts you can reach. For hard-to reach use the swabs, or wrap 2 - 3 kimwipes on a craft stick, tie a cut strip of kimwipe to hold it on, pour alcohol on it, and wipe the platter surface. Obviously I'm assuming you've wrapped it such that there's no danger of wood rubbing on the platter, only kimwipe. Repeat until the kimwipe is SPOTLESS WHITE. Shine a bright! light down the platter edgewise; look hard for lint standing up. If rare, blow 'em off with canned air. If "many" clean again. Repeat until spotless. Clean the heads again; on my DG drive I found the kimwipe-on-craft-stick thing worked great. Mount the platter, find the switch that disables head load (it iwll have one; I had to disassemble the drive cabinet to expose the guts and flip the switch.) With head load disabled, and assuming the disk filter is clean, power up and spin up the drive. Data General suggest ONE FULL HOUR of purge (as they call it). THe platter is spinning at 1800 rpm or so, there's a dozen specks of dust on there you'll never find. If the platter is otherwise clean and not sticky (the reason for all the alcohol!) it'll fling off in that hour. From tomj at wps.com Sat Jun 18 15:58:31 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP11/23+ frustration In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050617232824.00a43370@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050617232824.00a43370@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050618135720.W2336@localhost> On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Joe R. wrote: > shouldn't be TOO hard to find replacements. But an alignment disk will cost > about $300 and you'll need to service manual for the drive in order to > realign it after replacing the head. I don't know what heads cost these > days but they were about $100 each back in the mid 70s. I disagree on the alignment requirement. It's needed only for pack interchangability. It's 2005, not 1975, and that probably no longer matters. Use a tape, or ftp :-) From tomj at wps.com Sat Jun 18 16:02:17 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050618135912.U2336@localhost> On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > I'm having a hell of a time getting any program to load, so far I've been > Totally unsuccessful. You're having a vintage experience. This is unfortunately pretty much how it went in 1980, only there was no mailing list for you to gripe on :-) Audio cassette data systems are notoriously finicky about tape speed and volume, then cleanliness, etc. You also have to hope that when the tapes were made, they were with fresh batteries (or on AC adapter) and the volume was set right, etc. It is not only possible, it was COMMON, to make tapes that were never readable, even once. I recall (now, with prodding, ouch) tense rewind/play/SHIT!/rewind/play/SHIT!/... sessions with my sole cassette-based storage system. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 18 16:04:45 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP11/23+ frustration Message-ID: <20050618210445.9C66C70C9F9D@bitsavers.org> I disagree on the alignment requirement. It's needed only for pack interchangability. It's 2005, not 1975, and that probably no longer matters. Use a tape, or ftp :-) -- What you actually want to do is align it to work with the OTHER packs that came with the system! I learned this the hard way a LONG time (20+ years) ago when I discovered that none of the packs we had worked any more after I did a head alignment. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 18 16:10:02 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:10:02 -0400 Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on Message-ID: <0IIA00FW0TGQGWU6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP11/23+ goes on > From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) > Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:30:01 -0700 (PDT) > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > > >> What is the "modern way" to get software into the PDP11? > >I use a ZIP drive and a Qbus MSCP disc controller. > >A software-only solution (though much slower) is to use the >TU58 simulation software that is around Trust me it's faster! I've run both. The software needs to run at 19.2k or faster to be realistic. Allison From hachti at hachti.de Sat Jun 18 16:24:38 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:24:38 +0200 Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on In-Reply-To: <0IIA00FW0TGQGWU6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IIA00FW0TGQGWU6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <42B49116.5050203@hachti.de> >>I use a ZIP drive and a Qbus MSCP disc controller. Sounds interesting. But where to get that MSCP controller?? >>A software-only solution (though much slower) is to use the >>TU58 simulation software that is around ... But with it I would be able to boot my machine. At the moment I have NOTHING to boot up my system, copy disks, transfer data from pc etc... But I have a lot (perhaps more than 100) of these 8" disks. Can I boot RT11 or RSX11 from floppy??? Regards, Philipp :-) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 18 16:26:49 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:26:49 -0400 Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading Message-ID: <0IIA00JU7U8OBW64@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading > From: Tom Jennings > Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:02:17 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > >> I'm having a hell of a time getting any program to load, so far I've been >> Totally unsuccessful. > >You're having a vintage experience. This is unfortunately pretty >much how it went in 1980, only there was no mailing list for you >to gripe on :-) > >Audio cassette data systems are notoriously finicky about tape >speed and volume, then cleanliness, etc. > >You also have to hope that when the tapes were made, they were >with fresh batteries (or on AC adapter) and the volume was set >right, etc. It is not only possible, it was COMMON, to make tapes >that were never readable, even once. > >I recall (now, with prodding, ouch) tense >rewind/play/SHIT!/rewind/play/SHIT!/... sessions with my >sole cassette-based storage system. > Actually once I got it right even with the funky MITS ACR it was near everytime. After I dumped that and went to 9600 baud PE (Phase Encoded, fast version of tarbel and a few others). That and going to saturation recoding it was actually near 100% and faster if it did fail. Storage was always never enough, nor fast enough. Bulk random access storage was the holy grail of 1975. FYI: the funkyest device was an old audio echo drum. It was 1.15" high by about 9" diameter with a small AC motor and 20 staggered heads on two tracks. I shimmed the heads to form 5 tracks with two heads (one for read and one for write). The drum was coated with brown oxide and rotated at around 180 rpm (effective "tape speed of ~84ips). I figured it could hold 1kb per track at around 32k baud. It did. I ended up using that a for a few months (till the motor bearings which were poor to start failed.) to store a whopping 10kbyts with an access time of about 400ms. I wouldn't mind finding an old drum again. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 18 16:28:53 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:28:53 -0400 Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on Message-ID: <0IIA004SMUC4OMX6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP11/23+ goes on > From: Philipp Hachtmann > Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:24:38 +0200 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >>>I use a ZIP drive and a Qbus MSCP disc controller. > >Sounds interesting. But where to get that MSCP controller?? > >>>A software-only solution (though much slower) is to use the >>>TU58 simulation software that is around > >.... But with it I would be able to boot my machine. At the moment I have >NOTHING to boot up my system, copy disks, transfer data from pc etc... > >But I have a lot (perhaps more than 100) of these 8" disks. > >Can I boot RT11 or RSX11 from floppy??? > >Regards, > >Philipp :-) Yes! You can also boot RT-11 from TU58 (or a simulated one). RT-11 will boot from any block structured device provide there is a driver for it. Allison From jrasite at eoni.com Sat Jun 18 16:45:08 2005 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:45:08 -0700 Subject: Bernoulli Box (20 MB) In-Reply-To: <42B382EA.4040903@brutman.com> Message-ID: <3D19B257-E042-11D9-B12A-000502453125@eoni.com> I've got a 230mb drive you can have for cheap. I'll have to hook it up and scrub the cartridges (5 of 'em) but it's not doing me any good and if you want one... Jim On Friday, June 17, 2005, at 07:11 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I've got a chance to pick up an older (but not the oldest Bernoulli > Box). This is a single drive 20 MB unit that appears to the SCSI. > There are no cartridges and it is unknown if it works, but the price > is right. (Just shipping.) > > - Is it worth saving? > - How are are cartridges to find? > - Assuming the worst, is there a Sam's Computerfacts or other > technical documentation for this beast? > > > Thanks, > Mike > > > "We need a revolution." "Keep saying that and we'll need a lawyer, assuming they let us have one." Jan Steinman From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 16:57:46 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 16:57:46 -0500 Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on In-Reply-To: <42B48249.7070409@hachti.de> References: <42B48249.7070409@hachti.de> Message-ID: On 6/18/05, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Tried the crashed disk pack, crashed again immediately. I did say not to mount a pack that had crashed... that's completely expected. > I would be glad if that is a message read from the disk partitions (like > the bootsector message on non-system disks in my pc). Yes. It's a non-system boot block. > What is the "modern way" to get software into the PDP11? > Is there anything like a RIM or BIN loader? > Has anybody a convenient solution - or do I have to start from scratch > writing my own tools? There are several techniques... if you are trying to load, say, 2BSD, there's vtserver. If you are trying to run an RT-11 system, you can hook up a PC to a serial port _other than the console_ and fire up a TU58 emulator on the PC and boot _that_ on the PDP-11 (DD). As others have suggested, the one that's low-effort is to locate/buy/etc/ a Qbus MSCP controller - $200 to $250 might do it, and use something like a ZIP drive. You could load it up on a PC, then stick it on the PDP-11 and boot DU and there you are. Most PDP-11 operating systems you'll probably want to play with were not loaded from paper tape like the PDP-8 was in the 1960s - I know you can build OS/8 from paper tape. I doubt it was ever done with RT-11. Most folks by that era had some sort of mass storage. On the low end, that was TU58 or RX01. If you had a few grand, you could move up to an RK05 or RL01 (2MB-5MB). When I got into PDP-8s and PDP-11s, c. 1982-1984, the RL02 cost more than my car, so I had to content myself with lower-capacity devices. Dunno what's up with your Emulex controller. Never had one. It's possible that whatever software was on there once has been corrupted. It should take seconds to boot (or nearly instantaneously to see the first messages). If I had a system device that sat and blinked lights for 10 minutes, I'd be looking for a way to mount it on a known good system as a data disk and start poking around. -ethan From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sat Jun 18 17:19:05 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <20050618221905.153DA3BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> "Joe R." wrote: > >I re-assembled everything and tested it. It had trouble at first: the > >drive would start up but then I'd get error 43 (unexpected BOT or EOT or > >tape error). > > Check your tape! I'll bet that you'll find a spot where the media has > come of the plastic tape and now leaves a clear spot. The EOT sensor sees > the clear spot and thinks that it's the EOT hole. I bet this is what happened. In the following picture you can see the transparent spot that Joe referred to. http://www.series80.org/Articles/DamagedTape-lr.jpg In this case I do not think there is any point reassembling the tape, you are not going to read it with the 9825 tape drive. **vp From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 17:20:48 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:20:48 +0100 Subject: Torch Computers Ltd PSU available - anyone need a spare? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: (I tried to send this to cctech a while ago and don't think it ever made its way onto the list - my apologies for the bandwidth if it actually did...) Hi List, I have here a Farnell N110P411 open-chassis SMPSU. On a relay on one end of the board there is a white sticker with the text "TORCH COMPUTERS LTD (C) 1983" and a QC stamp. If anyone would like this (free, you pay shipping) as a spare part or for a repair/restoration, please speak up by private email. I'm having a clearout and I won't be able to keep this for too much longer before it gets recycled. Ed. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 18 17:34:59 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:34:59 -0400 Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on (and submission for FAQ) In-Reply-To: <20050618133946.R2336@localhost> References: <42B48249.7070409@hachti.de> <42B48249.7070409@hachti.de> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050618183459.00993100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:57 PM 6/18/05 -0700, you wrote: >On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >> thank you all for the tips around my harddrive desaster. Next time I will be >> wiser. >> I have cleaned my removable disk's heads. Used isopropanol and a match. >> Tried the crashed disk pack, crashed again immediately. Had to clean one head >> again. Took another pack. No crash, no error display etc. Hope that it stays >> ok. > >You're very lucky! > >Even though you are not having a problem now, I would spend $50 on >real cleaning materials. Here's what I suggest (others will >suggest other things). Mail order this stuff, you're unlikely to >find it retail (though Fry's Electronics here in Fornicalia >carries some of this stuff): > >* 99% anhydrous alcohol -- NOT drug-store alcohol. About $7/quart >* KIM wipes or equiv 100% lint free bonded/tangle-weave wipes. $10 >* Nylon-covered, fat foam swabs on sticks. $5/$10 >* Craft sticks $5 >* Disposable nylon gloves $? >* can of "air" (photo supply store) $10 > >(The gloves I was never able to find less than 1000 quantity; I >used non-powdered 8-mil latex, and washed them with >alcohol/kimwipes after I put them on. However flawed, it's gotta >beat oily finger prints. Cotton gloves are lint generators, might >as well use dryer lint.) I never used gloves when when I worked on disk drives but I do wash my hands frequently and I always wash them before working on any electronics. However I do know that there are people who's hands are acidic or salty or something and everything that they touch corrodes. If you're one of those people then you should use glooves. YMMV. Also you need to very careful about compressed air. First it needs to be DRY air or nitrogen otherwise it will spit water unto what you're cleaning. Also compressed air can easily damage the gimbal springs on a drive head and it should never be used there. My $.02 worth, Joe > > >You need to clean the platters of the GOOD disks, before the >become CRASHED disks. Here's how I did it: > >Before you start prep first. It takes 3 - 5 minutes. > >Using window cleaner or other simple cleaner, wipe off the >exterior of the disk drive, disk pack, the table or whatever >you will work on, and wash all you tools. Clean everything >you'll be touching or will be near. NO DUST. > >Lay a few sheets of clean, unused paper on the table. If you end >up with something delicate in your hand you'll ahve a place to put >it. The alternative is juggling or dropping it. (This is a car >trick but it's cheap and easy.) > >Get access to a pack. > >With gloved hands, dampen folded kimwipes (alcohol) and wipe >gently the parts you can reach. For hard-to reach use the swabs, >or wrap 2 - 3 kimwipes on a craft stick, tie a cut strip of >kimwipe to hold it on, pour alcohol on it, and wipe the platter >surface. Obviously I'm assuming you've wrapped it such that >there's no danger of wood rubbing on the platter, only kimwipe. > >Repeat until the kimwipe is SPOTLESS WHITE. > >Shine a bright! light down the platter edgewise; look hard for >lint standing up. If rare, blow 'em off with canned air. If "many" >clean again. Repeat until spotless. > >Clean the heads again; on my DG drive I found the >kimwipe-on-craft-stick thing worked great. > >Mount the platter, find the switch that disables head load (it >iwll have one; I had to disassemble the drive cabinet to expose >the guts and flip the switch.) With head load disabled, and >assuming the disk filter is clean, power up and spin up the drive. > >Data General suggest ONE FULL HOUR of purge (as they call it). THe >platter is spinning at 1800 rpm or so, there's a dozen specks of >dust on there you'll never find. If the platter is otherwise clean >and not sticky (the reason for all the alcohol!) it'll fling off >in that hour. > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 18 17:36:49 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:36:49 -0400 Subject: PDP11/23+ frustration In-Reply-To: <20050618135720.W2336@localhost> References: <3.0.6.32.20050617232824.00a43370@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050617232824.00a43370@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050618183649.009bbb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:58 PM 6/18/05 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >> shouldn't be TOO hard to find replacements. But an alignment disk will cost >> about $300 and you'll need to service manual for the drive in order to >> realign it after replacing the head. I don't know what heads cost these >> days but they were about $100 each back in the mid 70s. > >I disagree on the alignment requirement. It's needed only for pack >interchangability. Or if you want to read any pack with existing data. Personally if I only had one pack and one drive I wouldn't waste my time with the drive. Joe It's 2005, not 1975, and that probably no >longer matters. Use a tape, or ftp :-) > > From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 17:44:34 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:44:34 -0400 Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: <20050618135912.U2336@localhost> Message-ID: Well, I got a program I made to load up, even if it was just a one liner ;) I guess the tapes are not very good :) I've been googling around and couldn't find much in the way of software Anyone know any good spots for programs? Also - would just recording the programs as wav files work well? If that's the case, I'll be able to feed the computer out into the Tapedeck, since I can't get it to take anything directly from the TS (at least, audiable on THAT deck, computer input is quite audiable, I have another deck I can't load from but I managed to write a Program to!) And on another note, is ZXTAPE sensitive to cpu speed? On 6/18/05 5:02 PM, "Tom Jennings" wrote: > On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > >> I'm having a hell of a time getting any program to load, so far I've been >> Totally unsuccessful. > > You're having a vintage experience. This is unfortunately pretty > much how it went in 1980, only there was no mailing list for you > to gripe on :-) > > Audio cassette data systems are notoriously finicky about tape > speed and volume, then cleanliness, etc. > > You also have to hope that when the tapes were made, they were > with fresh batteries (or on AC adapter) and the volume was set > right, etc. It is not only possible, it was COMMON, to make tapes > that were never readable, even once. > > I recall (now, with prodding, ouch) tense > rewind/play/SHIT!/rewind/play/SHIT!/... sessions with my > sole cassette-based storage system. > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 18 17:43:20 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:43:20 -0400 Subject: PDP11/23+ frustration In-Reply-To: <20050618210445.9C66C70C9F9D@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050618184320.00a22100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:04 PM 6/18/05 -0700, Al wrote: > >I disagree on the alignment requirement. It's needed only for pack >interchangability. It's 2005, not 1975, and that probably no >longer matters. Use a tape, or ftp :-) > >-- > >What you actually want to do is align it to work with the OTHER packs >that came with the system! > >I learned this the hard way a LONG time (20+ years) ago when I discovered >that none of the packs we had worked any more after I did a head alignment. I learned the same leason the hard way. I was once called into a site that was having drive problems. I found both of their drives out of alignement so I realigned them. THEN we found out that they couldn't read any of their previously written disks. OOPS! I spent 1/2 day "un-aligning" one drive so that it could read the old disks. We then read all the old disks and copied everything to disks that had been reformatted on the newly aligned drive. After verifing that everything was safely copied, I then aligned the 2nd drive and made sure that all the disk could be read in either drive. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 18 17:50:16 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:50:16 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <20050618221905.153DA3BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050618185016.00a22a40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:19 PM 6/18/05 -0400, vp wrote: >"Joe R." wrote: >> >I re-assembled everything and tested it. It had trouble at first: the >> >drive would start up but then I'd get error 43 (unexpected BOT or EOT or >> >tape error). >> >> Check your tape! I'll bet that you'll find a spot where the media has >> come of the plastic tape and now leaves a clear spot. The EOT sensor sees >> the clear spot and thinks that it's the EOT hole. > >I bet this is what happened. In the following picture you can see the >transparent spot that Joe referred to. > http://www.series80.org/Articles/DamagedTape-lr.jpg > >In this case I do not think there is any point reassembling the tape, >you are not going to read it with the 9825 tape drive. You can probably read the files located before the blank spot but not those after it. OTOH I've thought about trying to "black out" the clear spot with magic marker or some other material. If you can make it dark enough that the EOT sensor doesn't trigger then you cmay be able to read the files after the spot but the file where the spot is WILL be corrupted since the media and data there is missing. Joe From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jun 18 18:15:32 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 19:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050618185016.00a22a40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050618185016.00a22a40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200506182317.TAA02214@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > You can probably read the files located before the blank spot but not > those after it. OTOH I've thought about trying to "black out" the > clear spot with magic marker or some other material. I considered that too. But... > If you can make it dark enough that the EOT sensor doesn't trigger > then you cmay be able to read the files after the spot but the file > where the spot is WILL be corrupted since the media and data there is > missing. ...yes, and if this tape fits the general pattern of QIC tapes I've dealt with in the past, it's got serpentine recording, meaning that mo matter where on the tape the blank spot is, logically, most of the tape is after the blank spot, because the dropout will hit somewhere in the first pass.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 18 18:29:23 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 16:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: bunch of 11/84s on eBay Message-ID: <20050618232923.E3D2C70C9FC3@bitsavers.org> http://search.ebay.com/degital-pdp_W0QQfromZR40QQsojsZ1 $1500 ea ? From bqt at Update.UU.SE Sat Jun 18 18:35:15 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 01:35:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Several comments on crashed drive in PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <200506182248.j5IMlx8T095630@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506182248.j5IMlx8T095630@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:21:29 +0200 > From: Philipp Hachtmann > Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <42B48249.7070409 at hachti.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > Hi, > > thank you all for the tips around my harddrive desaster. Next time I > will be wiser. > I have cleaned my removable disk's heads. Used isopropanol and a match. > Tried the crashed disk pack, crashed again immediately. Had to clean one > head again. Took another pack. No crash, no error display etc. Hope that > it stays ok. :-) That was to be expected. A disk crash don't happen without a reason. That said, I've very seldom ever have it happen, and several times, the drive survived fine, but the pack was junk. People around here are perhaps a bit paranoid on cleaning. :-) But then again, it all boils down to how important it is for you to succeed. Cleaning is never wrong, but personally I can't say that not having cleaned that much stuff still haven't hurt me. > Now I did: > > $dm4 > .. And dm0,1,2,3 work same way.... > > Computer says: > > > > **THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM *** > > > > 000034 > > @ > > I would be glad if that is a message read from the disk partitions (like > the bootsector message on non-system disks in my pc). Yes, that is something that is read from the disk. RSX (don't know if the other OSes do the same) write a special boot block on non-bootable disks. This boot block basically just prints the above message, and halts. All that fits fine into 512 bytes. I don't know if more modern hardware have any checks in the boot code in the boot roms as well, which might say something. But the above message is exactly the message in the boot block RSX creates on non-bootable disks anyway. > What is the "modern way" to get software into the PDP11? Phew. Tape normally. Small, modern PDP11s usually have TK50, and software is distributed on TK50. Older PDP11s usually had/have large 1/2" tape drives. Software is also distributed on that. Tapes are bootable, and holds a system designed just for installing the rest. > Is there anything like a RIM or BIN loader? Yes, but that is very old technology. People don't have paper tape on PDP-11, and haven't for a very long time. > Has anybody a convenient solution - or do I have to start from scratch > writing my own tools? If you're on a bare system, with only disk drives to play with, then your options are limited. The best might actually be to pretend you have a TU58, which speaks through a normal serial line, but is a block device, which most PDP11 can boot from. > Message: 22 > Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:24:38 +0200 > From: Philipp Hachtmann > Subject: Re: PDP11/23+ goes on > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <42B49116.5050203 at hachti.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > > >>I use a ZIP drive and a Qbus MSCP disc controller. > > Sounds interesting. But where to get that MSCP controller?? MSCP SCSI controllers, to be exact. There are several different types of MSCP controllers, and not all of the talk SCSI, nor can you hook a ZIP drive to them. That said, I believe Qbus MSCP SCSI controllers occasionally pop up on ebay. Or you find someone tossing them out. > >>A software-only solution (though much slower) is to use the > >>TU58 simulation software that is around > > ... But with it I would be able to boot my machine. At the moment I have > NOTHING to boot up my system, copy disks, transfer data from pc etc... Yes. The TU58 is a cheap block device, for which the hardware on the PDP-11 side actually is just a serial interface. Most boot roms know how to boot from one, and an emulator for the actual TU58 exist. > But I have a lot (perhaps more than 100) of these 8" disks. > > Can I boot RT11 or RSX11 from floppy??? Yes. Oh, and I would probably try to align the drive correctly if I fooled around with it. You never know when another pack shows up which you might want to read. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Jun 18 18:46:27 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:46:27 +0100 Subject: Archiving MFM and RLL drives In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618110023.0532c870@mail> References: <7b8fd2408d4b45bd5dd0a2736a4936f9@bitsavers.org> <42B3C483.2020603@oldskool.org> <6.2.1.2.2.20050618110023.0532c870@mail> Message-ID: In message <6.2.1.2.2.20050618110023.0532c870 at mail> John Foust wrote: > It's not supposed to be the Baby Jesus, it's just a tool in one's arsenal. I know that - in my experience it tends to cause more harm than good (and Dynastat just looks like someone's attempt at creating computer eye candy). Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Where's my 640Meg SIMM? I want to run Excel! From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Jun 18 18:50:37 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:50:37 -0500 Subject: Teletypes (was Re: Retrochallenge, 2005) In-Reply-To: <49231.207.145.53.202.1119051825.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <42AF48DD.nail4UT1M5MNP@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <49231.207.145.53.202.1119051825.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050618185037.26bf878b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:43:45 -0700 (PDT) "Eric Smith" wrote: > TIM wrote: > > WHO NEEDS A COMPUTER AT HOME. I'VE GOT MY MODEL 33ASR TELETYPE > > AND 110 BAUD MODEM. > > 33ASR? You youngsters have it easy. Back when I was young all we had > were 5-level machines like the Model 28. Real fun using those to talk > to ASCII-based systems: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/ttyhan/ > When I was a kid, summer vacation meant not being able to get into the High School's computer room to use the ASR33's to dial up to MERITS and run BASIC on the HP Timesharing system. A few times while suffering withdrawl, I'd call up the number from home and whistle at the Bell 103 answer tone. If you warbled properly, you could keep it from hanging up for minutes. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 18 18:57:39 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 19:57:39 -0400 Subject: bunch of 11/84s on eBay In-Reply-To: <20050618232923.E3D2C70C9FC3@bitsavers.org> References: <20050618232923.E3D2C70C9FC3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42B4B4F3.nail2SH1DYVSY@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > $1500 ea ? This is the second time (or third?) time around for these on E-bay. Every time the same starting price. And the same mispelled "Degital". Tim. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Jun 18 19:01:17 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 01:01:17 +0100 Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e6e307d4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message Gary Sparkes wrote: > I've been googling around and couldn't find much in the way of software > Anyone know any good spots for programs? Isn't the TS-1000 just a rebadged Sinclair ZX81? If it is, then ZX81 software should work fine on it. > Also - would just recording the programs as wav files work well? Probably, assuming you sample the signal at about 11025Hz (or more). This is assuming the maximum frequency in the signal is 4000Hz (and the data storage circuit uses FSK) - if it's higher, use a higher sample rate. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI SLEEP.COM *** Process interrupted. Kill intruder (Y/N)? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 17:29:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:29:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <59821.207.145.53.202.1119058161.squirrel@207.145.53.202> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 17, 5 06:29:21 pm Message-ID: > I may well replace the PSUs in a KL10 with SMPSUs. That reduces the > operating costs by more than $30/day. Compuserve did this to their KL10s Why not replace them with a PC running an emulator and reduce the operating costs still futher? To me (a hardware hacker) the design of the PSU _is_ part of the design of the machine, and should br preserved (I've seen at least as many interesting PSU designs as, say, CPU designs...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 17:38:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:38:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP11/23+ frustration In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 17, 5 09:34:49 pm Message-ID: > > There is another solution to the problem which I took -- reformat > > the media. Of course this means instantaneous data loss. > > This is not an option for drives like the DEC RL01/RL02. The rest of No, but as the RL's use an embedded servo system, you can align the heads using _any_ normal disk pack. There was an amplitude test pack to check the read amplifier, but you don;t _need_ that one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 17:43:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:43:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <001b01c573b7$649c9540$6092d6d1@Randy2> from "Randy McLaughlin" at Jun 17, 5 10:39:48 pm Message-ID: > I take issue on some things like cutting holes or like a recent post I try not to make holes larger than screw holes (for sensibly-sized screws). But if I have to replace, say, a transformer and the new one is not idetnical to the old, I'd rather drill an extra mounting hole or 2 than leave that transformer hanging on one screw. > removing a large filter cap and replacing it with two smaller caps, even If the original filter cap is unavailable, then I would replace it with 2 smaller ones in parallel (better than having a non-working machine, surely). I'd use the right part if I could get it though. > changing screws when you still have the originals. Let's not start that again... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 17:46:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:46:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP11/23+ frustration In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050617234659.009528d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 17, 5 11:46:59 pm Message-ID: > If the heads have crashed, they'll create enough drag on the disk that > it will go into an underspeed condition and that will cause the heads to > retract. It will do this even on drives that don't have servo info on the > disk. That depends on the drive. I've seen (and repaied) an RK05 that headcrashed and carried on running for serveral minutes with the heads loaded. Made a right mess of the heads, I can tell you... > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 17:49:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:49:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <20050618042523.A17CA3BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Jun 18, 5 00:25:23 am Message-ID: > Be VERY carefull when disassembling the drive, do not remove the > screws that hold the top (black) cover to the base of the tape I had no problems doing this to the drives in my 9815 or 9825 (and I don't expect any problems doing it to the drives in my 9845). Yes, there are smoe small parts, but you should expect that ;-) > drive, there are a couple of little parts (plastic balls, I think) > that will run away. The first time I took an HP-85 apart, I spent > a lot of time hunting these damn parts. > > Anyway, you should be able to remove the capstan and motor assembly > without taking the rest of the drive apart. You may need to unsolder > the two little tachometer wires (but in some cases they are simply > inserted into the PCB). This is very different on the 9815/25/45/etc (as against the 85). The PCB is not fixed to the drive mechanism as in the 85, it's seprate with a cableform connecting it to the drive. I think you can remove the motor assembly without desoldering any wires, but I will have to check. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 18:02:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:02:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 17, 5 10:35:40 pm Message-ID: > > It's fixed to the motor spindle, and carries a tacho disk (with clear > > and black lines) at the lower end. This is hidden inside the plastic > > chassis of the tape drive, between a light bulb and a phototransistor. > > Ok, I didn't realize all that was going on. HPCC has a reverse-engineered schematic for the 9825 (and for that matter the 9815) which would at least show the sensors, etc. There's no mechanical info in said schematics, though. > I had to remove the three screws holding the PCB to the aluminum bracket > so that I could get to the one screw (of three) that attached the tape > unit to the rest of the chassis. Then I could remove the tape unit (after I _thought_ you could remvoe the complete tape drive/bracket/PCB from the keyboard assembly without dismantling it at all, but as I said, it's been a long time. Anyway, there's no problem in removing the PCB like you did. I do know you can remove the tape drives from a 9845 (similar drives, very different brackets) without dismantling them, because I did that about a week ago. 4 screws and they come right out. > unplugging the cable). The aluminum bracket has two screws attaching it > to the body of the tape unit. Once those are off, you can extract the > aluminum bracket and get at the roller and read/write head. I couldn't > figure out how to remove the motor so I left it in place. The motor is mounted to a plastic disk that's fixed to the drive (plastic) chassis by 3 or 4 screws. It's on the bottom, the side without the head. Undo the screws and pull the motor, complete with the tacho sensor and the roller asssembky out. > > I couldn't find any of the recommended materials at the local hardware > store (never even heard of Tygon) but I did find latex tubing, and I Does anyone know a UK supplier for similar tubing (in sane lengths, like by the metre)? > figured that would work just as well as anything. I cleaned off most of > the old roller material and decided to leave in place what I couldn't > scrape off to work as a sort of adhesive (that stuff is sticky). The > latex tubing had a 1/4" inside diameter and a 3/8" outside diameter. The > diameter of the spindle head is 3/8", so the tight fit gave it added > traction. The thickness of the latex tubing is of course 1/8", which is > about double the thickness of the original roller. But now the spindle > was too thick and was wedged against the read/write head. So I got some > sandpaper and attached a 9V supply to the motor and lathed it down about You were lucky (or had spent some time figuring out the wiring, I know which I believe). The motor control circuit is not on the tape drive PCB, it's on the tape controller (one board up from the bottom in the stack of boards in the main chassis). So with the tape drive cable unplugged, the motor is electrically isolated and it's safe to connect a supply to it. The reason I mention this is that on some machines connecting a supply to the motor with the controller still connector does nasty things to bits of the mtoor controller. > I re-assembled everything and tested it. It had trouble at first: the > drive would start up but then I'd get error 43 (unexpected BOT or EOT or > tape error). I kept re-trying and eventually it seemed to work, but then > I pulled the tape and examined it and it seemed like the tension loop > inside had come undone. I opened the tape casing and, being an idiot, > pulled it apart from the wrong side, and all the internal spindles fell > out. So now I have a thoroughly scrambled tape that I now need to figure > out how to re-assemble (I was supposed to be getting the data off this > tape). Ouch. The normal method of dismantling is to undo the screws, then filp the catridge over (metal plate on the bottom) and lift off the cover. To reassemble, the easiest way I've found is as follows : Put the full spool on its spindle Add the drive 'puck' (that's the term I've seen in all the manuals), the belt and the 2 idler rollers at the front of the cartridige Put the empty spool on its spindle, then bring the belt round it with something like a cocktail stick. Run the tape round the guids and put the end between the belt and the empty spool. Now start turning the drive puck by hand to run the tape onto the spool (it is gripped by the belt). Give it about 5 turns round the spool, then turn the 2 spools in opposite directions to tension the tape. Fit the door and its spring. IIRC you can put the spring into the door, hook it into a little slot to hold it tenssioned, then drop the assembly over the pivot pin and then flick the end of the spring to release it. Put the cover on, fit the screws. I think the DEC TU58 user manual has some instructions for re-threading tapes in the back. It's much the same cartridge... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 18:06:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:06:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: FAQ (Re: PDP11/23+ frustration) In-Reply-To: from "Fred N. van Kempen" at Jun 18, 5 10:08:17 am Message-ID: > > People, > > Rather than (a) yelling at someone new for doing something WE know > should not be done, and then (b) go on (at length) at WHAT SHOULD > have been done, why dont all the experienced head-cleaners on here > work together (OFF_LIST !) on producing a HOWTO on this subject: Why should it be off-list? Surely repairing/presrving a demountable hard disk is very much on-topic here. > "HOWTO proceed with reviving an Old Disk Drive". I am not sure what good that will do. The sort of person who knows he has to take care and therefore will look for the HOWTO is the sort of person who, if he can't find that HOWTO will ask here anyway. And presumably list members would then give helpful information. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 18:33:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:33:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: from "Gary Sparkes" at Jun 18, 5 03:00:40 pm Message-ID: > > I'm having a hell of a time getting any program to load, so far I've been > Totally unsuccessful. > > Anyone have any tips or advice they can throw at me? > Would love to hear anything at all :) I've never used a ZX81 (or similar), but some tips that have worked on other machines and which might help A cheap mono cassette recorder is better than a hi-fi stereo one (!). Try using fress batteries (or a good, regulated, bench supply) to power the recoerder, not the built-in mains PSU. The latter can cause hum on the output which causes problems For much the same reason, keep the recorder away from the TV set or monitor (particulalry away from the side where the flyback transformer is). Make sure the heads are clean. Clean them again. And, for that matter, demagnetise them. Connect only the 'ear' lead for loading (and only the aux or mic lead for saving). With some computers and some recorders you can get a feedback loop if both are connected, leading to a nice oscillation on top of the wanted signal. Try various volume settings, of course. If you have a tone control, turn it to maximum (at least to start with). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 18:10:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:10:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8 CPU question In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050618111018.00a0cde0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 18, 5 11:10:18 am Message-ID: > more. I also dumped all the GR docs from the LONG three ring binders and > I'll keep them and put the long DEC docs in them. Thanks Thom! Why did you assume the GR manuals were of no value? I've kept probably hundreds of books and manuals that I can see no immediate use for, but which presumably will be useful to somebody, someday. Many people can't understand why I want schematics for machines that no sane person has used for the last 20 years. Or why I want schematics of PC stuff. Or why I want valve data sheets. _I_ can't see much value in advertising fliers. But I keep them anyway, because somebody is going to want to refer to them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 18:38:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:38:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: <0IIA00J77Q0E310A@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Jun 18, 5 03:55:26 pm Message-ID: > Stuck in record! That one runied a few of the owners tapes! This won;t apply to the ZX81, but IIRC one of the Radio Shack recorders that was supplied with TRS-80s (CTR80?) had a nasty design fault. If the tape was stoped by the remote control socket _even in play mode_, it would put a nasty little glitch onto the tape. This caused particular problems with LII machines, becuase if they detected a checksum error on loading, they'd stop the tape and thus ruin the next block. That tape would never load again. IIRC the mod (which Radio Shack did for free in the States, but Tandy in the UK had no knowlege of) was to solder a 10uF capacitor across the erase head connections (DC erase...) I did that and had no more problems -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 18:42:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:42:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on In-Reply-To: <42B48249.7070409@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Jun 18, 5 10:21:29 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > thank you all for the tips around my harddrive desaster. Next time I > will be wiser. > I have cleaned my removable disk's heads. Used isopropanol and a match. > Tried the crashed disk pack, crashed again immediately. Had to clean one > head again. Took another pack. No crash, no error display etc. Hope that > it stays ok. It sounds like you have been _very_ lucky... > > Now I did: > > $dm4 > .. And dm0,1,2,3 work same way.... > > Computer says: > > > > **THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM *** > > > > 000034 > > @ > > I would be glad if that is a message read from the disk partitions (like > the bootsector message on non-system disks in my pc). I haev an idea it _does_ come from the disk boot block :-) > What is the "modern way" to get software into the PDP11? > Is there anything like a RIM or BIN loader? It depends on what you already have on the machine. If you have an OS that supports the TU58 tape drive (don't worry that you don't have such a drive), you can emulate the TU58 on a PC (or unix box). It's a block-structured device that works like a (very slow) disk. There's also something called VTserver that I believe is a way to bootstrap software onto a PDP11. I've never used it, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 18:16:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:16:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8 CPU question In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 18, 5 11:47:21 am Message-ID: > I think in this case, the JSR/ROM issue is moot... doesn't the M8317 > 'toggle' the boot into low core? I didn't think M8317 PROMs were > memory mapped. If that's the diode matrix boot ROM then yes it does. The 'SW' switch on the panel starts the process, the ROM board then acts like a front panel (does the same things to the Omnibus signals) to copy the bootstrap into core. IIRC one of the rows of diodes defines the start address (the board effectively does a load-address operation with those diodes acting like the panel switches). There was another ROM/RAM board that was typically used to store user software, not bootstraps. That does appear in the normal memory map. IIRC there are 13 bits per location. The 13th bit is a flag, if it's in one state, then the data is read from the EPROMs (1702s, of course). If it's in the other state, then 8 (IIRC) of the EPROM data bits are used as an address into a 256 location RAM, and the contents of that RAM location are fed to/from the bus. This means you can do the normal subroutine link, etc. -tony From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jun 18 19:41:31 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:41:31 -0400 Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c57467$a316c880$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Interestingly, the Altair in question had two large caps in parallel floating around in the case, tied to a card bracket with a twist-tie. One of the previous owners must have replaced the original single 90,000uF cap with two. $30 later from Mouser, I bought a single Sprague 100,000uF/40v cap to replace the two and bolted it into the existing 3" bracket. Original? No, but neither was the earlier repair. At least it fits in the mounting bracket and exceeds the original specs. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 6:44 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Altair Fan > I take issue on some things like cutting holes or like a recent post I try not to make holes larger than screw holes (for sensibly-sized screws). But if I have to replace, say, a transformer and the new one is not idetnical to the old, I'd rather drill an extra mounting hole or 2 than leave that transformer hanging on one screw. > removing a large filter cap and replacing it with two smaller caps, > even If the original filter cap is unavailable, then I would replace it with 2 smaller ones in parallel (better than having a non-working machine, surely). I'd use the right part if I could get it though. > changing screws when you still have the originals. Let's not start that again... -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 19:50:46 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 19:50:46 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 CPU question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/18/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > I think in this case, the JSR/ROM issue is moot... doesn't the M8317 > > 'toggle' the boot into low core? I didn't think M8317 PROMs were > > memory mapped. > > If that's the diode matrix boot ROM then yes it does. The 'SW' switch on > the panel starts the process, the ROM board then acts like a front panel > (does the same things to the Omnibus signals) to copy the bootstrap into > core. IIRC one of the rows of diodes defines the start address (the board > effectively does a load-address operation with those diodes acting like > the panel switches). What I am talking about are the pair of bi-polar PROMs that are on the M8317 board that is pretty much standard with the PDP-8/a... it has a bank of DIP switches to select the boot device (out of 4 possible), and _that_ bootstrap is toggles into low core when you hit the SW/Boot switch. It works like the diode-matrix board, but is integral to the multi-function board. I am _not_ talking about the 13-bit RAM/EPROM board that was far less common. -ethan From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jun 18 20:24:26 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:24:26 -0500 Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B4C94A.2050009@pacbell.net> Tony Duell wrote the single quoted stuff: >>I may well replace the PSUs in a KL10 with SMPSUs. That reduces the >>operating costs by more than $30/day. Compuserve did this to their KL10s > > > Why not replace them with a PC running an emulator and reduce the > operating costs still futher? Why not? Because it doesn't have the same nostalgia factor as the real hardware? Because it is fun to have real blinking lights instead of emulated blinking lights? Because it is fun to touch the real item and plug in real cards and connect real cables? When I hold the real manuals for the computer I first learned to program, it brings me back to that time in a way that can't be matched (not even close) when viewing scans of the same pages on my monitor. As someone who spends a lot of time writing emulators, I know just how much can't be captured via emulation. For instance, one of the machines I care about has 16 dedicated special function keys, but PC keyboards have 12. You can (and I have) provide a work around for mapping the missing keys, but it isn't the same as the real item. Differences like that break the illusion, just like seeing a boom mike in the shot when watching a movie. > To me (a hardware hacker) the design of the PSU _is_ part of the design > of the machine, and should br preserved (I've seen at least as many > interesting PSU designs as, say, CPU designs...) Tony, you have to have a consistent story on this one. You don't have $100 to buy a used but usable PC for the times that one is needed, but you are critical of somebody who wants to swap out the power supply of his computer to save $900/month on electricity. Would you advocate that he leave in the original supply and then never use it? How is that a better outcome? From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jun 18 20:34:21 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:34:21 -0500 Subject: Great Finds Today Message-ID: <00ba01c5746f$1ce77590$14406b43@66067007> Got the following manuals today: IBM Functional Wiring Principles April 1960 IBM RPG Debugging Template IBM Reference model 24 Card Punch and model 26 Printing Card Punch IBM 77 Collator Manual of Operation 1955 IBM 46 and 47 Tape-to-Card Punch reference manual digital pdp11 Systems and Options Summary July 1977 with Price insert sheet UNIVAC 1004 card Processor 80 Column reference IBM System/3 model 10 Disk System IBM System/370 model 125 sales pamphlet and price sheets Here's a short list of other items in the haul today: 5-reels of 6250 BPI tapes IBM removal disk pack from a 360 disk unit 5- boxes of 80 column card stock 27- 8" diskettes, some new and some used with programs and data on them Metal IBM gauge card Metal UNIVAC gauge card Over 50 plug wires for wiring boards plus an IBM branded tool for installing the wires 2- IBM hand punches for cards (two different models) There are many other items that I have not sorted yet and will list later. From napier at waste.org Sat Jun 18 20:42:01 2005 From: napier at waste.org (John Napier) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:42:01 -0700 Subject: bunch of 11/84s on eBay In-Reply-To: <42B4B4F3.nail2SH1DYVSY@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20050618232923.E3D2C70C9FC3@bitsavers.org> <42B4B4F3.nail2SH1DYVSY@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <42B4CD69.3020706@waste.org> Tim Shoppa wrote: > This is the second time (or third?) time around for these on E-bay. > Every time the same starting price. And the same mispelled "Degital". And they don't come with batteries or battery rechargers. And the shipping coasts are dependent on final destination. - Joe From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jun 18 21:01:16 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:01:16 -0400 Subject: War Games movie Message-ID: <000a01c57472$c6f02d90$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: As I'm watching War Games, there is a scene about 1/2 hour in, just after Lightman finds the phone number for the WOPR. He goes to see his friends at the computer company to decipher the list of games. Lightman walks through a datacenter and then to the back room. Do we know what company's datacenter that was? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jun 18 20:38:04 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:38:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <42B4C94A.2050009@pacbell.net> References: <42B4C94A.2050009@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200506190200.WAA02793@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Tony, you have to have a consistent story on this one. [...] I don't see why he has to be consistent. Our hobby is - well, for most of us it is - fundamentally an emotional one, and emotions often do not follow logical rules. "A foolish consistency..." I do, though, think it a bit excessive of Tony to, in effect, criticize (or at least criticise :) others for not sharing his feelings here. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 20:40:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 02:40:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <42B4C94A.2050009@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Jun 18, 5 08:24:26 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote the single quoted stuff: > > >>I may well replace the PSUs in a KL10 with SMPSUs. That reduces the > >>operating costs by more than $30/day. Compuserve did this to their KL10s > > > > > > Why not replace them with a PC running an emulator and reduce the > > operating costs still futher? > > Why not? Because it doesn't have the same nostalgia factor as the real You do realise I was being sarcastic, I hope. I, probably more than anybody here, like to run the real hardware. I like to use the origianl storage devices, terminals, etc wherever possible. Yes I might add modeen stuff _as well_, but I keep the original stuff going. I am very much a hardware person. To me a computer is a complicated (normally) electronic circuit. I am interested in the complete circuit, not just the CPU. That's one little bit of it. Other parts, including the PSU, can be interesting too. > hardware? Because it is fun to have real blinking lights instead of > emulated blinking lights? Because it is fun to touch the real item and > plug in real cards and connect real cables? Of course. > > To me (a hardware hacker) the design of the PSU _is_ part of the design > > of the machine, and should br preserved (I've seen at least as many > > interesting PSU designs as, say, CPU designs...) > > Tony, you have to have a consistent story on this one. You don't have > $100 to buy a used but usable PC for the times that one is needed, but You know full well that $100 is by no means the total cost of ownership for that PC for the length of time I'll want to be using it. > you are critical of somebody who wants to swap out the power supply of > his computer to save $900/month on electricity. Would you advocate that > he leave in the original supply and then never use it? How is that a > better outcome? I'd probably rather want to reduce the operating hours (but not to zero), and keep the machine original. -tony From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sat Jun 18 21:11:30 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:11:30 -0500 Subject: Bernoulli Box (20 MB) In-Reply-To: <200506182248.j5IMlx8P095630@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506182248.j5IMlx8P095630@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42B4D452.2010402@brutman.com> The general consensus is that the Bernoulli boxes are pretty rugged, so I'll take a chance and save this one. The price is right. I will be looking for the 20MB carts to feed it .. If I can attach it to my PCjr it will make my month ... (Yes, my Jr does SCSI.) Mike From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jun 18 21:25:25 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:25:25 -0400 Subject: War Games movie Message-ID: <000f01c57476$26e12760$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> OK, too much time on my hands...from http://www.fast-rewind.com/ "Broderick visits fellow computer geeks at The Academic Computing Center in Seattle." The high school was Snohomish High School in Everett. What does anyone know about the ACC? Rich > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard A. Cini [mailto:rcini at optonline.net] > Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 10:01 PM > To: CCTalk (cctalk at classiccmp.org) > Subject: War Games movie > > All: > > As I'm watching War Games, there is a scene about 1/2 hour in, just > after Lightman finds the phone number for the WOPR. He goes to see his > friends at the computer company to decipher the list of games. > > Lightman walks through a datacenter and then to the back room. Do we > know what company's datacenter that was? > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ > > From drb at msu.edu Sat Jun 18 22:10:05 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:10:05 -0400 Subject: War Games movie Message-ID: <200506190310.j5J3A59H015744@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > "Broderick visits fellow computer geeks at The Academic Computing > Center in Seattle." > > What does anyone know about the ACC? It's probably the Academic Computing Center, at UW Seattle. I can't seem to find a photo to compare with my memory of the movie scene. De From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 18 21:50:33 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:50:33 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 CPU question In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050618111018.00a0cde0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050618225033.009fa640@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:10 AM 6/19/05 +0100, Tony wrote: >> more. I also dumped all the GR docs from the LONG three ring binders and >> I'll keep them and put the long DEC docs in them. Thanks Thom! > >Why did you assume the GR manuals were of no value? Two reasons. One, there no value to me or or now likely to be of value to anyone on this list since they're for board test stations that are the size of a large automobile! Two, if I really need to know something about them I can ask Thom since he works on the GR test stations for a living. Joe From James at jdfogg.com Sat Jun 18 23:10:05 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:10:05 -0400 Subject: War Games movie Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045B30@sbs.jdfogg.com> > -----Original Message----- > As I'm watching War Games, there is a scene about 1/2 > hour in, just after Lightman finds the phone number for the > WOPR. He goes to see his friends at the computer company to > decipher the list of games. > > Lightman walks through a datacenter and then to the > back room. Do we know what company's datacenter that was? No idea as to the DC, but the story on the streets around Cambridge Massachusetts is that most of the "junk" used to make the film props came from Eli Heffron's & Sons on Hampshire Street in Cambridge. At the time, they sold "stuff" by the pound in piles. As "stuff" aged it got moved to cheaper piles. Eli's was good stuff until lately. You can still get just about any minicomputer/test-gear part you want, but not at bargain prices. I'll never forget the day I saw a beautiful redhead girl walk in to Eli's, immediately notice a PDP-8 board and get all excited about the bargain find (and she correctly identified it). She had been looking for one for *her* PDP-8. I was in love. My favorite Eli score was a TDC Microfiche camera, with lens and film reels for $50.00. Since I worked for TDC I recognized it and parted out the camera to my customers for about $2000.00. ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Jun 18 23:19:40 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:19:40 -0500 Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: References: <20050618135912.U2336@localhost> Message-ID: <20050618231940.5c5140e4.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:44:34 -0400 Gary Sparkes wrote: > Well, I got a program I made to load up, even if it was just a one > liner ;) I guess the tapes are not very good :) > > I've been googling around and couldn't find much in the way of > software Anyone know any good spots for programs? > > Also - would just recording the programs as wav files work well? > > If that's the case, I'll be able to feed the computer out into the > Tapedeck, since I can't get it to take anything directly from the TS > (at least, audiable on THAT deck, computer input is quite audiable, > I have another deck I can't load from but I managed to write a > Program to!) > A somewhat 'crude' but simple thing you can try is to listen to the audiotape sound of the tape you created which you say was successful. Then listen audibly to the tapes you're trying to recover. If the pitch seems to match for the most part it isn't a speed problem. If you have an oscilloscope, look at the amplitude of the signal out of the cassette drive of the new 'working' tape and compare to the one you're trying to recover. I haven't done this, but there are decent tools nowadays for what could be called 'high performance audio editing' that you can throw at the problem, if you use your sound card to digitize the audio to a WAV file. I use Cool Edit 2000 (much less expensive than full-bore Cool Edit, probably no longer available) for audio work. There are a LOT of powerful tools for fiddling with audio now that we have all the horsepower for DSP that a modern pee-cee provides. Somebody should develop an 'audio datacassette emulator' for the kind of thing you're trying to do. I have a T/S 1000 that I'd use more if I had something like that to use with it. Ideally it would even have a 'remote on' input, i.e. the TRS-80 Model 1 could turn the drive on and off directly. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jun 19 00:05:47 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: War Games movie In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045B30@sbs.jdfogg.com> from James Fogg at "Jun 19, 5 00:10:05 am" Message-ID: <200506190505.WAA13630@floodgap.com> > I'll never forget the day I saw a beautiful redhead girl walk in to > Eli's, immediately notice a PDP-8 board and get all excited about the > bargain find (and she correctly identified it). She had been looking for > one for *her* PDP-8. I was in love. So what happened?? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I may be underpaid, but I underwork just to make it even. ------------------ From vrs at msn.com Sun Jun 19 00:18:04 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:18:04 -0700 Subject: RL8/a References: <20050618183213.B242170C9F74@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: From: "Al Kossow" > Cables are MUCH more difficult to find than the boards themselves! > esp things like the cable that goes from a TD8/E to a TU56 If you are referring to the M960 and M961, I have CAD drawings for replica versions of those. Never needed to have any made, though. You'd also need a 74H04 for each. It should be simple enough to build them on DEC breadboard/wire-wrap cards, too. Vince From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Jun 19 03:18:42 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 09:18:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8 CPU question In-Reply-To: "Joe R." "PDP-8 CPU question" (Jun 18, 11:10) References: <3.0.6.32.20050618111018.00a0cde0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <10506190918.ZM22006@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 18 2005, 11:10, Joe R. wrote: > I brought home my PDP-8 yesterday. Nice haul :-) > I also have a question about the diagnostic paper tapes. Does anyone have > a ROM emulator or other way to load the diagnostics without using a PT > reader? Yes, I know there are some SIMPLE diagnostics that can be loaded > from the Programmer's Panal but I concerned about the more extensive > diagnostics. In fact, I'm wondering if anyone has tried burning the > diagnostics into PROMs and installing them in place of the Boot Roms on the > M8317 card. The best way is to keep tape image files, or just plain binaries, on a PC (or whatever) and load them in over a serial line. Have a look at the Kevin McQuiggin's PDP-8 page at Highgate: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ Kevin keeps a mirror of David Gesswein's site which has lots of diagnostics and documentation, but there are more diagnostic tapes on Aaron Nabil's site at www.pdp8.org -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Jun 19 04:56:36 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:56:36 +0200 (MEST) Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on In-Reply-To: <20050618203001.6FD4470C9F8D@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > > What is the "modern way" to get software into the PDP11? > > I use a ZIP drive and a Qbus MSCP disc controller. That is good for people who have (and can afford) Qbus SCSI controllers. Most don't. > A software-only solution (though much slower) is to use the > TU58 simulation software that is around This works, but indeed is slow. A little faster would be doing a VTserver install, but that requires fiddling with the OS to make it "understand" the VT: tape drive. It would be good if some of the RT, RSX and RSTS folks on here could do this (easy) mod, and make a dist kit for the hobbyist community. Contact me off-list if you're interested in doing so! --f From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jun 19 06:31:53 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 07:31:53 -0400 Subject: Looking for data sheet for AY5-2376 Message-ID: <002901c574c2$7deba5c0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: Does anyone have a PDF copy of the data sheet for the General Instruments AY5-2376 ASCII keyboard encoder chip? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 19 07:20:00 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:20:00 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) Message-ID: <42B562F0.nailBZE1NVGYR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Those of you following this list for the last few years know about my "giveaways". I've been getting rid of stuff that has sat in my basement or garage for a number of years without getting touched. In my hardware heyday, I would spend every moment of my free time playing with Q-bus, Unibus, or S-100 hardware. I also had my foot in the water w.r.t. PDP-11 OS releases (in some cases both feet in the water) in the late 90's and got to do a lot of fun things with very specialized classic hardware (CAT machine backprojectors hooked to PDP-11's, for example). But since I got a "steady job" in 2000 running a $10 Billion peripheral, factored in with three young kids, I didn't have the time to treat the hardware well. All of it has gone on to find good homes, and I want to thank the volunteers who helped me get rid of it. There's still a few items but they have owners allocated already :-). I still do tinker with electronics, but my attention as of late is on analog circuitry (often with microcontroller assistance) rather than older bus-based computer systems. I've also acquired a few R-390A's that I'm happy to say are on their way to being cleaned up and restored. (OK, the R-390A has a digital display on the front, but it's not digital electronics!). And I will still endeavor to take care of the PDP-10 software archives, the DECUS PDP-11 and PDP-10 collections, etc. It's been years since any software was donated to those archives so I haven't put a lot of effort into them. But it's good to know that there a are a couple of PDP-10's around the world that are now usefully "up" thanks to the archives. I've made a few attempts to break into the professional archiving world w.r.t. digital media, but so far I've been universally ignored. Of course, those who ignore me would rather just talk about the problem rather than solve it. So maybe that's why I don't register on their radar. You have seen and probably will see me rant and rave on this subject occasionally! So that's my non-retirement. I hope to keep involved and do relevant things into the future, and in the past few months I've been browsing this list more than I did in the early 2000's. Tim. From James at jdfogg.com Sun Jun 19 07:43:31 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:43:31 -0400 Subject: War Games movie Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045B32@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > I'll never forget the day I saw a beautiful redhead girl walk in to > > Eli's, immediately notice a PDP-8 board and get all excited about the > > bargain find (and she correctly identified it). She had been looking > > for one for *her* PDP-8. I was in love. > > So what happened?? Well, nothing. She was an MIT student and I was just a working geek in the unglamorous field service world. I didn't think the chasm was surmountable and I didn't even try. ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From jcwren at jcwren.com Sun Jun 19 07:46:51 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:46:51 -0400 Subject: New Scientist article on retro computing Message-ID: <42B5693B.4020601@jcwren.com> From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sun Jun 19 08:43:35 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:43:35 +0200 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) References: <42B562F0.nailBZE1NVGYR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <001201c574d4$e3dc46c0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Tim Shoppa" > I've made a few attempts to break into the professional archiving > world w.r.t. digital media, but so far I've been universally ignored. > Of course, those who ignore me would rather just talk about the > problem rather than solve it. A meager consolidation, but you are not the only one. Everybody, including most of the people (I've met!) responsible for archiving important data, believes that CDR's will last forever, and that there always will be a Windows version (shudder). Some time ago, there was an article on the subject in a danish periodical for archivists, but absolutely no reactions have resulted. The only thing to do, seems to keep all those conversion / archiving / format / .... knowledge alive, so our (grand)children might use it. From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jun 19 08:51:41 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 09:51:41 -0400 Subject: Looking for data sheet for AY5-2376 Message-ID: <20050619135140.DWHD5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 07:31 19/06/2005 -0400, you wrote: >All: > > Does anyone have a PDF copy of the data sheet for the General >Instruments AY5-2376 ASCII keyboard encoder chip? > Hi Rich, I have a small (2 page) datasheet for an SMC KR2376-xx keyboard encoder which is probably a compatible device (to check, VCC is on pin 1, Ground is on pin 17, and the keyboard matrix connects to 21-31 (inputs) and 32-39 (outputs). As noted above, it's only 2 pages. It gives you the pinout, typical connection diagram, character matrix assignment chart and some waveform charts. If this is of use to you, I can scan it for ya. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jun 19 09:09:48 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:09:48 -0400 Subject: Looking for data sheet for AY5-2376 In-Reply-To: <20050619135140.DWHD5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <002f01c574d8$8dc93960$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Dave: Yes, this would be a big help as it's two pages more than I have at this point. :-) Thanks. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 9:52 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for data sheet for AY5-2376 At 07:31 19/06/2005 -0400, you wrote: >All: > > Does anyone have a PDF copy of the data sheet for the General >Instruments AY5-2376 ASCII keyboard encoder chip? > Hi Rich, I have a small (2 page) datasheet for an SMC KR2376-xx keyboard encoder which is probably a compatible device (to check, VCC is on pin 1, Ground is on pin 17, and the keyboard matrix connects to 21-31 (inputs) and 32-39 (outputs). As noted above, it's only 2 pages. It gives you the pinout, typical connection diagram, character matrix assignment chart and some waveform charts. If this is of use to you, I can scan it for ya. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 19 11:14:44 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 12:14:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hitachi rescued Message-ID: I rarely post rescues, but this one was quite an effort, and I must thank Dan Cohoe for being such a great help. This Saturday, Dan and I pulled a Hitachi AS/6 model 2 mainframe from a well hidden junkyard in Ontario. The AS/6 is not complete - the memory (storage) and some I/O is missing, but the basic processor is intact, albeit a bit grungy. The AS/6 was a IBM S/370 clone, made in the late 1970s to compete with the 303x line of machines from IBM. According to some old mainframers, the machine was roughly equivalent to an IBM 3031, or as another put it, an S/370 model 168 with "crap channels". Four cabinets were removed - all five feet tall, the first is a standard 30 inches long, and basically contains the front panel and a floppy drive. The next two cabinets, both 60 inches long, contain the processor. The third cabinet, also 60 inches long, contains the channel to channel adapter plus the interconnects to the long departed memory and I/O "wings" (the AS/6 was originally an enormous T shaped machine). Each cabinet is quite full, each with three-deep gates (swingout cardcages). The boards are fairly small, and are made of mostly stock 10K ECL chips. The power units are 415 Hz fed, of course. I have no documentation, so the chances of getting this running are extremely slim. Everything is fairly well marked, and the small boards are not horribly hard to trace, but such an effort would likely take years. The lack of the memory box is not a huge deal - the AS/6 had only 8 megs, although it probably is quite wide, and may have had several independed banks for faster fetches. The lack of I/O is more of a concern - it is hoped that some channel hardware is intact. Also, the lack of the microcode floppy is bad, but there is always hope. Also rescued was a full string of ca. 1972 3330 Merlin disks (DASDs). These are all in poor condition, and may never run again. A 3505/3525 card reader and punch combination was also pulled out. These will need to be rebuilt, but very likely will run again. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From news at computercollector.com Sun Jun 19 11:27:31 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 12:27:31 -0400 Subject: New Scientist article on retro computing In-Reply-To: <42B5693B.4020601@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <200506191635.j5JGZtBD010007@keith.ezwind.net> I guess you didn't notice that I posted the same link on Thursday. :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of J.C. Wren Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 8:47 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: New Scientist article on retro computing From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 19 11:27:30 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 09:27:30 -0700 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) Message-ID: <5f3d788f99bd5cd4739aee968f0e7cc1@bitsavers.org> And I will still endeavor to take care of the PDP-10 software archives, the DECUS PDP-11 and PDP-10 collections, etc. It's been years since any software was donated to those archives so I haven't put a lot of effort into them. But it's good to know that there a are a couple of PDP-10's around the world that are now usefully "up" thanks to the archives. -- I need to see about completely cloning trailing-edge. There were a few cgi scripts there that made using wget difficult when I tried to copy it to bitsavers. I've made a few attempts to break into the professional archiving world w.r.t. digital media, but so far I've been universally ignored. Of course, those who ignore me would rather just talk about the problem rather than solve it. So maybe that's why I don't register on their radar. You have seen and probably will see me rant and rave on this subject occasionally! -- Given another 10 years it won't be an issue, since after the next round of corporate failures/mergers there won't be any old software to recover, and as you've discovered, people don't seem to be very concerned about recovering/preserving what exists now. I've been ranting for a while now that people are saving the iron, but not the software that ran on it. It's surprising how little is even left from late 60's IBM 360s (incl the systems themselves), which was the most popular large computing system, and how MUCH has been saved from DEC (thanks to the efforts of collectors and CHM). I'm starting to think that there is going to be a pretty strange view of computer software in the future, since there is so MUCH that was saved from DEC, and almost nothing from Burroughs, UNIVAC, NCR, and Honeywell (the last member of the BUNCH, CDC, seems to have a fair amount saved, though) From ICS at Core.com Sun Jun 19 11:57:58 2005 From: ICS at Core.com (George Wiegand) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 12:57:58 -0400 Subject: Want to contact Ebay User: Jeffruss Message-ID: <009301c574f0$0c843090$8884efd1@ics63szde1vn50> Hi, Is there an Ebay User: "Jeffruss" on the list? ,George Wiegand ICS at Core.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 19 11:53:10 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 12:53:10 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) Message-ID: <0IIC00DZDC8MKGU9@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) > From: Al Kossow > Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 09:27:30 -0700 > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > >I'm starting to think that there is going to be a pretty strange >view of computer software in the future, since there is so MUCH >that was saved from DEC, and almost nothing from Burroughs, >UNIVAC, NCR, and Honeywell (the last member of the BUNCH, CDC, >seems to have a fair amount saved, though) > One the old iron front there are machine like IMP48 I haven't find docs for and History on Cincinati Millichron 2000 and 2100 series (1973ish). >From the software front, I'm the odd egg, I have stuff I haven't cataloged yet. One example is the whole software base for a defunct company that used S100 hardware something like 200 disks. As to archiving, thats a next process. It will take years and employment as it does require money to do it. In the meantime I copy media to other machines and occasionally read/refresh it. Allison From hachti at hachti.de Sun Jun 19 12:16:38 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:16:38 +0200 Subject: Several comments on crashed drive in PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: References: <200506182248.j5IMlx8T095630@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42B5A876.2000505@hachti.de> Hi, > People around here are perhaps a bit paranoid on cleaning. :-) I have no clean room and no cleanroom..... >>Computer says: >> >>> **THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM *** >>> >>>000034 >>>@ >> >>I would be glad if that is a message read from the disk partitions (like >>the bootsector message on non-system disks in my pc). > > Yes, that is something that is read from the disk. Great! > RSX (don't know if the other OSes do the same) write a special boot block > on non-bootable disks. This boot block basically just prints the above > message, and halts. All that fits fine into 512 bytes. Aha. I also have an RSX-11M license..... But no media or a clue how to get it into my machine. >>What is the "modern way" to get software into the PDP11? > Phew. Tape normally. Small, modern PDP11s usually have TK50, and software > is distributed on TK50. TK50...??? >>Is there anything like a RIM or BIN loader? > Yes, but that is very old technology. People don't have paper tape on > PDP-11, and haven't for a very long time. Hm.... But I'm a paper tape enthusiast..... I just think about giving the 11 away again - perhaps it's too modern for me..... > If you're on a bare system, with only disk drives to play with, then your > options are limited. I have a RX02 double diskette drive and a lot of disks.... > The best might actually be to pretend you have a > TU58, which speaks through a normal serial line, but is a block device, > which most PDP11 can boot from. May the original bootstrap code boot from a serial port directly?? > Yes. The TU58 is a cheap block device, for which the hardware on the > PDP-11 side actually is just a serial interface. Most boot roms know how > to boot from one, and an emulator for the actual TU58 exist. The standard ROM in my 11/23+ does not boot from tu58? >>Can I boot RT11 or RSX11 from floppy??? > Yes. Ok. that's the point where I try to start. I will make a floppy. Need an image and then I'll try to put the image to onto a floppy. > > Oh, and I would probably try to align the drive correctly if I fooled > around with it. You never know when another pack shows up which you might > want to read. I can't realign the drive because I don't have the alignment tools, control panel for the drive and an alignment pack. But I did not change the head alignment when I removed the heads. Left them together without moving relatively to each other.. Does anyone have experience with that "vtserver" program? It puts it's bootcode into the pdp (via odt) and then the CPU stops. Sometimes a single 'r' character shows up. And sometimes I see an error message (non-existent record 13).... I start to think about a problem with my serial port.... Are there known issues with the console port? I have tried 300,2400,9600 and 19200. Always errors. But NEVER while vtserver puts its startup code. Always after vtserver has started the pdp. And a simple question: How does the addressing in pdp11 work? R7 seems to be only 16 bit wide. And when I boot up the system, the MMU should be off and the memory mapping should be direct. How do I access the upper bits of my PC (i.e. "changing the segment")? Regards, Philipp :-) From dundas at caltech.edu Sun Jun 19 12:19:15 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (dundas at caltech.edu) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: War Games movie Message-ID: <2571244714dundas@caltech.edu> Don't know what fast-rewind has to say or where they got their data. The datacenter itself (the CDC computer shown, 3150 or 6600; can't recall now) and some of the supporting scenes were shot at the California State University, Long Beach computing center. I was there at the time (already graduated but hung out there as I had friends there and used the 11/70 not shown). There may well have been other scenes shot in Washington as Rich indicates. John > OK, too much time on my hands...from http://www.fast-rewind.com/ > > "Broderick visits fellow computer geeks at The Academic Computing Center in > Seattle." > > The high school was Snohomish High School in Everett. > > What does anyone know about the ACC? > > Rich > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard A. Cini [mailto:rcini at optonline.net] > > Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 10:01 PM > > To: CCTalk (cctalk at classiccmp.org) > > Subject: War Games movie > > > > All: > > > > As I'm watching War Games, there is a scene about 1/2 hour in, just > > after Lightman finds the phone number for the WOPR. He goes to see his > > friends at the computer company to decipher the list of games. > > > > Lightman walks through a datacenter and then to the back room. Do we > > know what company's datacenter that was? > > > > Rich > > > > Rich Cini > > Collector of classic computers > > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > > /************************************************************/ > > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 19 12:27:05 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:27:05 -0700 Subject: Want to contact Ebay User: Jeffruss Message-ID: Jeff Russ is a long time DEC collector in southern Indiana. I visted him years ago. He's another one of those people with a huge collection of software that will get around to reading it when he gets his 30+ year old computers working again, like the guy in Minneapolis with the stash of early 60's CDC stuff that wants to build a museum some day that insists on reading his 7-track 1604 tapes ON a 1604. Jeff did put some PDP-8 stuff up at http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeImages/russ.ucs.indiana.edu/ This should also give you a hint where he is... From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 19 12:26:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <0IIA00H95MFODGX7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: > >> Tygon is the clear tubing you might find in a chemistry lab. > >> I don't think the clear stuff at the hardware store is Tygon. > > Its a brand of Vinyl. > > I'm the one that posted maybe ten years ago about using Tygon Vinyl > to repair the gooey rollers of TU-58 drives. I can say for a fact > that those drives so repaired still work fine. The only problem > I've found over time is flat spotting if the tape is left in place. I would've thought vinyl would be too hard to make proper traction with the drive roller. > Even if it did harden in say five years.. a foot of that is enough > to fix a few dozen drives easily and it's widely available in both > thick and thin wall types. It's a given that any fix will need to be re-fixed again in N number of years as whatever material you use will probably break down. I figured the latex would break down sooner than other materials but it was the best option I had at the moment. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jcwren at jcwren.com Sun Jun 19 12:33:26 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:33:26 -0400 Subject: New Scientist article on retro computing In-Reply-To: <200506191635.j5JGZtBD010007@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200506191635.j5JGZtBD010007@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42B5AC66.2000203@jcwren.com> How could that be? From the headline: "10:30 19 June 2005" --jc 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >I guess you didn't notice that I posted the same link on Thursday. :) > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of J.C. Wren >Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 8:47 AM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: New Scientist article on retro computing > > > > > > From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 19 12:34:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on In-Reply-To: <0IIA00FW0TGQGWU6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: > > > >Subject: Re: PDP11/23+ goes on > > From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) > > Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:30:01 -0700 (PDT) > > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > > > > > >> What is the "modern way" to get software into the PDP11? > > > >I use a ZIP drive and a Qbus MSCP disc controller. > > > >A software-only solution (though much slower) is to use the > >TU58 simulation software that is around > > Trust me it's faster! I've run both. The software needs to run > at 19.2k or faster to be realistic. And another tip when using the TU58 simulator is to NOT run it under Windows 9x, which handles DOS serial port access VERY POORLY. Run it in pure DOS. Better yet, run the Linux version. Here's a jumping off point to the TU58 simulator: http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/tu58-emu.htm -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Jun 19 10:21:42 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:21:42 +0100 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:43:35 +0200." <001201c574d4$e3dc46c0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <200506191521.QAA06169@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Nico de Jong said: > From: "Tim Shoppa" > > > I've made a few attempts to break into the professional archiving > > world w.r.t. digital media, but so far I've been universally ignored. > > Of course, those who ignore me would rather just talk about the > > problem rather than solve it. > > A meager consolidation, but you are not the only one. Everybody, including > most of the people (I've met!) responsible for archiving important data, > believes that CDR's will last forever, and that there always will be a > Windows version (shudder). > > Some time ago, there was an article on the subject in a danish periodical > for archivists, but absolutely no reactions have resulted. ISO have some publications on the subject, I have one as a PDF and they're easy to find online. Look for ISO TC 42/N 4767 for example. The British Museum and the Public Records Office have been doing research, but what the current state of play is I don't know. See also: Avoiding Technological Quicksand: Finding a Viable Technical Foundation for Digital Preservation by Jeff Rothenberg Available online somewhere... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 19 12:36:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: <0IIA00JU7U8OBW64@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: > FYI: the funkyest device was an old audio echo drum. It was > 1.15" high by about 9" diameter with a small AC motor and 20 > staggered heads on two tracks. I shimmed the heads to form > 5 tracks with two heads (one for read and one for write). > The drum was coated with brown oxide and rotated at around > 180 rpm (effective "tape speed of ~84ips). I figured it > could hold 1kb per track at around 32k baud. It did. > I ended up using that a for a few months (till the > motor bearings which were poor to start failed.) to store > a whopping 10kbyts with an access time of about 400ms. Wow, that is really cool! Homebrew drum storage on a home computer using audio. Awesome! I don't suppose you have any photos or notes for that project still? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 19 13:01:25 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:01:25 -0700 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <5f3d788f99bd5cd4739aee968f0e7cc1@bitsavers.org> References: <5f3d788f99bd5cd4739aee968f0e7cc1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 9:27 AM -0700 6/19/05, Al Kossow wrote: >I've been ranting for a while now that people are saving the iron, >but not the software that ran on it. It's surprising how little is Don't forget it's not just software, the people tend to toss the manuals as well. >I'm starting to think that there is going to be a pretty strange >view of computer software in the future, since there is so MUCH >that was saved from DEC, and almost nothing from Burroughs, >UNIVAC, NCR, and Honeywell (the last member of the BUNCH, CDC, >seems to have a fair amount saved, though) How much of this though is due to availability of the systems, and where they were actually used? Didn't the DEC systems tend to be used in much more open environments where the software could get out? I was lucky to have saved the GCOS-8 manuals I've got, there is absolutely *NO WAY* I could have gotten copies of the software, even if I'd have considered doing such a thing at the time. How many of these systems (and everything that went with them) were on lease, and as a result had to go back to the manufacturer for destruction? Let's not forget that there are huge chunks of DEC software that is lost or virtually lost. Who has Pre-V4 VAX/VMS? While it might seem like there is a lot of PDP-10 software, in reality, most of it's gone. The early PDP-11 OS's, as well as most Layered Products are largely missing as well (of these RT-11 has best been archived). I honestly don't know about the state of PDP-8 software, but I know there are definitely holes. Other than those systems, most of the PDP's have little or no software that has been archived. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 19 12:59:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Several comments on crashed drive in PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Has anybody a convenient solution - or do I have to start from scratch > > writing my own tools? > > If you're on a bare system, with only disk drives to play with, then your > options are limited. The best might actually be to pretend you have a > TU58, which speaks through a normal serial line, but is a block device, > which most PDP11 can boot from. I downloaded and ran the TU58 simulator on my PC, then booted RT11 off that. I then created a bootable RT11 system disk and used the floppy to boot. Then I could mount blank images in the TU58 simulator and copy files from the PDP11 to the PC. Then you can use the PUTR utility to extract files from the images on the PC into standard PC files. It all works very well and cleverly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 19 13:00:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: <2e6e307d4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message > Gary Sparkes wrote: > > > I've been googling around and couldn't find much in the way of software > > Anyone know any good spots for programs? > > Isn't the TS-1000 just a rebadged Sinclair ZX81? If it is, then ZX81 software > should work fine on it. > > > Also - would just recording the programs as wav files work well? > > Probably, assuming you sample the signal at about 11025Hz (or more). This is > assuming the maximum frequency in the signal is 4000Hz (and the data storage > circuit uses FSK) - if it's higher, use a higher sample rate. Storage is cheap. Just use 44Khz (i.e. "linear"). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jun 19 13:26:38 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:26:38 -0500 Subject: War Games movie In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045B32@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045B32@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <42B5B8DE.30404@mdrconsult.com> James Fogg wrote: >>>I'll never forget the day I saw a beautiful redhead girl walk in to >>>Eli's, immediately notice a PDP-8 board and get all excited about > > the > >>>bargain find (and she correctly identified it). She had been looking > > >>>for one for *her* PDP-8. I was in love. >> >>So what happened?? > > > Well, nothing. She was an MIT student and I was just a working geek in > the unglamorous field service world. I didn't think the chasm was > surmountable and I didn't even try. Oooh! A TOWNIE! Yes, the sorority chicas at UT still actually use that word. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jun 19 13:35:32 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:35:32 -0500 Subject: Paging s.m.jones Message-ID: <42B5BAF4.7010601@mdrconsult.com> If eBay ID s.m.jones is on this list, please contact me offlist. Doc From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 13:48:11 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:48:11 -0700 Subject: Motorola Microsystems 6800 offered. Message-ID: I posted one of my Motorola Microsystems rack mount 8 bit 6800 computer systems on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5210557139 For those that object to ebay I have second, basically the same, that I can offer directly for similar terms, $75 plus shipping. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From uban at ubanproductions.com Sun Jun 19 13:52:01 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:52:01 -0500 Subject: BBN TC2000 rescued (was: May need help with rescue in RI) Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050619122701.0255f360@mail.ubanproductions.com> First of all I would like to thank everyone who offered to help rescue the BBN TC2000 from Rhode Island. As it turned out (read below) the scheduling of this became a mess and I ended up going alone, but that wasn't because no one offered... I left early in the morning of 6/10 in my wife's '97 Tahoe (w/120k miles) to begin my 900 mile trek to my brother's home in Westford MA. I've made the trip a number of times and when I am driving it by myself, I drive it straight through with a couple of stops for fuel, food, restroom, etc. The drive consists of getting onto I90 and heading east until just before it drops into the Atlantic. All was going well until I had just crossed into Massachusetts and was accelerating out of the turn pike toll booth when there was a "clunk" and the engine reved higher than usual before shifting gears (automatic). Needless to say this got my attention! I took the next exit and pulled off to see if I could determine what had gone wrong. I checked the transmission fluid and it was full and didn't seem to be burned, so I called my brother and gave him the news and decided to continue on. When accelerating, the shift point was still high and there seemed to be problems when going into 4th, so I put it into 3rd and kept it under 65mph. Nervous, I kept track of mile markers so that if it gave out entirely, I could let someone know where I was. Fortunately the trip to my brothers was successful -- woo! Once in my brother's driveway, I determined that in addition to whatever else was broken in the transmission, reverse was now dead as well. Being late on a Friday, no shops were open and being MA, no transmission shops were open on Saturday either. I had scheduled to pick up the TC2000 at 11a on Saturday morning and it was a two hour drive, so it seemed that the only option was to rent a truck for the pickup. As single day rentals of cargo van (a full size van, not a mini-van or moving truck) seemed too expensive from places like U-Haul, checking Enterprise showed that there was a van locally and it would only be around $70 for the day. I signed up online and waited for them to open at 9a Saturday morning. My brother went with me to pick up the van and we were surprised to find that there was in fact a van in the Enterprise parking lot! We were a few minutes early and waited for someone to show up. When they did, we indicated that we were there to pick up the van which we had reserved the night before and that we were impressed that there was in fact a van in the lot. The person told us that they were very sorry, but that one was already reserved and had been for a week and that "they" shouldn't allow reservations of van's online. So much for picking up the TC2000 on that Saturday. I called the guy who was to meet me and he was very accommodating and said to just let him know when I could reschedule. So I perused the yellow pages and decided that I would call AAMCO Monday morning and get them started on fixing the transmission. My original plan had been to pick up the TC2000 on Saturday, go to work at my companies nearby office (I mostly telecommute anyway, so I can work at home or any one of the offices around the country with equal ease), give a presentation to some of the locals on Monday, and return home on Tuesday. This was obviously going to change. After talking to the AAMCO guy bright and early when they opened, I arranged to have them tow the truck in and I went to work. They called me about mid day with the initial estimate and asked if they should proceed with a rebuild, etc. I said yes and asked how many days it would take. The guy indicated that they average about 3.5 days. My week progressed and on Tuesday I talked to the AAMCO guy again to see how it was going. He now had a firm finish time of either the end of Wednesday or by noon Thursday at the latest, so I began rescheduling my pickup in RI of the TC2000 machine. I figured that I would just pick up the truck at noon on Thursday, drive down to RI and pick up the machine, then spend one more night and head home on Friday morning. I talked to the guy I would be meeting and made the arrangements. For some reason I didn't bother to call AAMCO on Wednesday figuring that they would call me if there was a problem. Wednesday came and went and I called AAMCO on Thursday morning to verify pickup at noon. They told me that the technician had mistakenly done some work on another fellow's transmission Wednesday and that mine would now not be ready as planned. I would have to wait until Friday morning. Grr! So I called the fellow in RI again and told him the news. He was very understanding and we arranged to meet at 11a on Friday morning. My brother took me over to the AAMCO shop Friday morning at 8:30a, I paid the large bill, and took my truck, hoping that it was really all fixed and would make the rest of the trip ok. My brother followed me for a way as it was in the direction he was going to his work place and I continued on to RI, arriving at 11a almost exactly. I met the guy and loaded up the machines, packed in a bunch of software (on various tape formats), some documentation, etc. The truck was packed to the gills and as I had been going on measurements as to if it would all fit prior to seeing the actual machine, I was very lucky. I had to remove a piece of trim at the rear ceiling of the truck to squeeze the machine in! Here is the beginning of my web page to document the TC2000... http://www.ubanproductions.com/tc2000.html Again, thanks to my brother for his help, shuttling me around, housing me, etc. and to the people who offered to help rescue the machine. Also a big thanks to the fellow who allowed me to rescue the machine and to my wife and son who I missed for a few unexpected extra days. --tom From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 19 13:50:14 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive Message-ID: <20050619185014.8E5C970CA09B@bitsavers.org> Sun-labeled ones are what you should watch for. They all seem to have the 800bpi option, and are SE SCSI. -- Spotted one over at Weird Stuff for $50 today. Sun PN 596-1219 The 800bpi option (replacement R/W board) PCB part number is 07980-66531 http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Systems/Sun4/RMVBL_OPT_680.html for a parts breakdown From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 19 13:53:59 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BBN TC2000 rescued (was: May need help with rescue in RI) Message-ID: <20050619185359.749A870CA09F@bitsavers.org> Great news, Tom! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 19 13:43:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:43:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <200506190200.WAA02793@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jun 18, 5 09:38:04 pm Message-ID: > I do, though, think it a bit excessive of Tony to, in effect, criticize > (or at least criticise :) others for not sharing his feelings here. Well.... I am not, and never will be (I hope) a 'yes man'. I see no reason to necessarily agree with anybody (eqyally, of course, I see no reason for people to agree with me). I prefer to get the facts (and maybe opinions of others) and to work out what I should do. Yes, I may well do the wrong thing, in fact I often do the wrong thing. But at least I try to have a reason for doing it. This is claimed to be a discussion list IIRC. A discussion necessarily has people with differeing viewpoints, it would be darn boring if not. Equally, this list would be boring if everybody agreed with each other IMHO. The fact that I criticise somebody (and I think that's a pretty strong word for simply disagreeing with them) does not mean I think they're an idiot. Or that they're necessarily wrong. It just means that I would do something differently. My aim in posting such messages is to give an alternative point of view. I don't expect to change everybody to my way of thinking. In fact I don't expect to change anybody. I just feel I have something that _may_ be worth considering. Somebody else commented that I wouldn't spend $100 on a PC that he thinks I need. Well, firstly of course, the total cost is a lot more than $100. I've explained that before. And seconding _I_ don't think I need a PC. If I think I need something, I find a way to buy it. Like the Myford lathe. Or an other example, I don't have a digital camera, I don't see that I need one. But I've bought a lot of film-based photographic equipment that I consider to be more use to me than a digital thing. My choice, OK.... Now I presume the reason said person thinks I need a PC is to read manuals as pdf files. I don't need a machine to do that. I have many of the manauls I need as originals on paper. If I don't have them and they're only available on pdfs, then I find a way to get them in a form I can read. Maybe by using a machine in an internet cafe (an analogous argument is that because I don't drive or own a car (true statements), I can't, say, go to a place 100 miles away Of course I can, I can use public transport). What I have never done (I hope), at least not recently, is flame the people who contribute to, or run, the pdf document archives on the web. Becuase that's certainly not my intention. I regard them as a very useful resource, even if _I_ can't make use of them easily. -tony From news at computercollector.com Sun Jun 19 14:24:56 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:24:56 -0400 Subject: New Scientist article on retro computing In-Reply-To: <42B5AC66.2000203@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <200506191932.j5JJWdA0010906@keith.ezwind.net> A twisting of the space-time continuum? LOL, I read it on the 16th, but clicking on my own link just now says it's from the 18th (yesterday!)... very strange. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of J.C. Wren Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 1:33 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New Scientist article on retro computing How could that be? From the headline: "10:30 19 June 2005" --jc 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >I guess you didn't notice that I posted the same link on Thursday. :) > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of J.C. Wren >Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 8:47 AM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: New Scientist article on retro computing > > > > > > From joe at barrera.org Sun Jun 19 14:31:11 2005 From: joe at barrera.org (Joe Barrera) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 12:31:11 -0700 Subject: New Scientist article on retro computing In-Reply-To: <200506191932.j5JJWdA0010906@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200506191932.j5JJWdA0010906@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42B5C7FF.5090701@barrera.org> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > LOL, I read it on the 16th, but clicking on my own link just now says > it's from the 18th (yesterday!)... very strange. Most magazines are pre-dated a few days. The 18th probably refers to the magazine's nominal date, not the actual date that the article first appeared on the web site. - Joe From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 19 14:34:40 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:34:40 -0400 Subject: New Scientist article on retro computing In-Reply-To: <200506191932.j5JJWdA0010906@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200506191932.j5JJWdA0010906@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42B5C8D0.nailH8G113ZYR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> I guess you didn't notice that I posted the same link on Thursday. :) The overall scope of the New Scientist article is about the same as the MIT Technology Review article, but the substance is remarkably different. In the New Scientist article, hobbyists (like us) come to the rescue to enable the libraries and archivists to get at the old stuff. In the MIT Technology Review article, only major defense companies gunning for the $100M+ contracts are players. No grass-roots involvement at all. A few years ago, esp. when Simson Garfinkel was a regular writer (and editor?), I really enjoyed MIT Technology Review. The past couple of months it has taken a major turn towards venture-capital and defense contractors. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jun 19 14:37:13 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:37:13 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <5f3d788f99bd5cd4739aee968f0e7cc1@bitsavers.org> References: <5f3d788f99bd5cd4739aee968f0e7cc1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42B5C969.nailHAR11WYJQ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> how MUCH has been saved from DEC (thanks to the efforts of collectors >> and CHM). Is there an index somewhere of the CHM collection, and what parts of it have been recovered? My question is specifically targeted towards software not hardware. (I think they have a halfway decent web-accesible index of hardware.) Tim. From news at computercollector.com Sun Jun 19 14:41:03 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:41:03 -0400 Subject: New Scientist article on retro computing In-Reply-To: <42B5C7FF.5090701@barrera.org> Message-ID: <200506191948.j5JJmgo0011003@keith.ezwind.net> Right, but J.C.'s link has today's date. Strange that they would change the story date with each calendar day. Oh well. Either way it's nice to see our hobby covered in such magazines. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joe Barrera Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 3:31 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New Scientist article on retro computing 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > LOL, I read it on the 16th, but clicking on my own link just now says > it's from the 18th (yesterday!)... very strange. Most magazines are pre-dated a few days. The 18th probably refers to the magazine's nominal date, not the actual date that the article first appeared on the web site. - Joe From sieler at allegro.com Sun Jun 19 14:53:45 2005 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 12:53:45 -0700 Subject: HP 3000?? Thing-a-ma-jig available In-Reply-To: <000901c5686d$9c33c690$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42B56AD9.10594.95F125A@localhost> > It's an HP 30151A or "ATP Expansion Package". It appears to have 24 modems Chuck Shimada says: > This is an external ATP port housing. It contains the RS232/422 ports > which normally fit on the IO panel bays on HP 3000 Series 64, 68, 70, > 58, 48, 44, 33 systems. > They were also used as the IO panel bay for the HP 3000 Series 52, 42, > 40, 30. > > There were cables which ran from the ATP cards to the chassis. > Each panel could handle four DB25 RS232 modem style or eight (?) > three pin ATP RS232 or 5 pin ATP (RS422?). Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From bqt at Update.UU.SE Sun Jun 19 15:11:59 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:11:59 +0200 (CEST) Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <200506191701.j5JH1Esh004964@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506191701.j5JH1Esh004964@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: Hi, Tim. Long time no see... > And I will still endeavor to take care of the PDP-10 software > archives, the DECUS PDP-11 and PDP-10 collections, etc. It's been > years since any software was donated to those archives so I haven't > put a lot of effort into them. But it's good to know that there a > are a couple of PDP-10's around the world that are now usefully > "up" thanks to the archives. Yes, well I'm basically lurking as well. Most of the world ignore me, so I tend to keep a bit to myself. I do have some new software that I could contribute in the RSX world atleast, if you're interested. Oh, and I don't know if you saw my mail on info-pdp11, but Magica (the 11/70) is occasionally online, but we've also moved all data to a simulated PDP-11 which is online 24/7, including all accounts. That machine in Mim.Update.UU.SE. Just send me a mail if you want in and have forgotten your password. For everyone else (who might not know this) Update is a computer club at Uppsala University, who have been running a PDP-11/70 online for over ten years with free guest accounts. Last year we had to stop running it full time because of money cuts from the University. The machine is still there, and just need to turn a key to be online, but it's at odd times right now. So we received a donation from Dbit of a E11 license. So we're finally back online with a PDP-11 running RSX full time. A guest account exist, with the username GUEST, and password GUEST. If people don't abuse it, it will stay this way. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From mokuba at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 15:16:31 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:16:31 -0400 Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If it's really that big of a deal for licensed software, I have About fifty Win95 license & cd kits sitting in a box... :) How about a W3.11 license? Only got about 100 of them :/ On 6/19/05 2:43 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> I do, though, think it a bit excessive of Tony to, in effect, criticize >> (or at least criticise :) others for not sharing his feelings here. > > Well.... > > I am not, and never will be (I hope) a 'yes man'. I see no reason to > necessarily agree with anybody (eqyally, of course, I see no reason for > people to agree with me). I prefer to get the facts (and maybe opinions > of others) and to work out what I should do. Yes, I may well do the wrong > thing, in fact I often do the wrong thing. But at least I try to have a > reason for doing it. > > This is claimed to be a discussion list IIRC. A discussion necessarily > has people with differeing viewpoints, it would be darn boring if not. > Equally, this list would be boring if everybody agreed with each other IMHO. > > The fact that I criticise somebody (and I think that's a pretty strong > word for simply disagreeing with them) does not mean I think they're an > idiot. Or that they're necessarily wrong. It just means that I would do > something differently. My aim in posting such messages is to give an > alternative point of view. I don't expect to change everybody to my way > of thinking. In fact I don't expect to change anybody. I just feel I have > something that _may_ be worth considering. > > Somebody else commented that I wouldn't spend $100 on a PC that he thinks > I need. Well, firstly of course, the total cost is a lot more than $100. > I've explained that before. And seconding _I_ don't think I need a PC. If > I think I need something, I find a way to buy it. Like the Myford lathe. > Or an other example, I don't have a digital camera, I don't see that I > need one. But I've bought a lot of film-based photographic equipment that > I consider to be more use to me than a digital thing. My choice, OK.... > > Now I presume the reason said person thinks I need a PC is to read > manuals as pdf files. I don't need a machine to do that. I have many of > the manauls I need as originals on paper. If I don't have them and > they're only available on pdfs, then I find a way to get them in a form I > can read. Maybe by using a machine in an internet cafe (an analogous > argument is that because I don't drive or own a car (true statements), I > can't, say, go to a place 100 miles away Of course I can, I can use > public transport). > > What I have never done (I hope), at least not recently, is flame the > people who contribute to, or run, the pdf document archives on the web. > Becuase that's certainly not my intention. I regard them as a very useful > resource, even if _I_ can't make use of them easily. > > -tony From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sun Jun 19 15:24:04 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:24:04 -0700 Subject: Looking for data sheet for AY5-2376 References: <200506191701.j5JH1EsY004964@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001701c5750c$ea0d1370$0300a8c0@downstairs2> > Does anyone have a PDF copy of the data sheet for the General > Instruments AY5-2376 ASCII keyboard encoder chip? > > Rich Cini I have a 4 page version of the SMC KR-2376 on my SWTPC CT-1024 web page. It was used in the SWTPC KBD-5 keyboard. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/CT_1024/KR2376.pdf Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jun 19 16:03:12 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:03:12 -0500 Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B5DD90.1080709@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > And another tip when using the TU58 simulator is to NOT run it under > Windows 9x, which handles DOS serial port access VERY POORLY. Run it in > pure DOS. Better yet, run the Linux version. > > Here's a jumping off point to the TU58 simulator: > > http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/tu58-emu.htm Sellam, which of the Linux emulators are you using, and with what Linux kernel version? Doc From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Jun 19 16:05:14 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:05:14 -0400 Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? Message-ID: <200506192105.j5JL5EQg018039@mwave.heeltoe.com> Hi, On a whim (hey, it's father's day :-) I decided to try and boot my dormant 11/44 from the TU58 using the tu58 simulator. Has anyone done this? I'm being totally lazy and didn't look at the M7090 schematics (yet) and assumed the TU58 20pin header is the same as the console 20pin header. I also assumed it's RS-232 and not TTL. Further, I assumed it was running at 38400 baud. Naturally it didn't work right off the bat... :-) I know my serial port and tu58 simulator are working since they boot my 11/730 just fine. I'll look at the schematics but I thought I'd ask for any sage advice. (luckily my spare UBI board had a DD boot rom on it) -brad From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 19 16:13:50 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) Message-ID: <20050619211350.75DE870CA0BE@bitsavers.org> >> how MUCH has been saved from DEC (thanks to the efforts of collectors >> and CHM). Is there an index somewhere of the CHM collection, and what parts of it have been recovered? -- Sellam, as software curator, is responsible for that. AFAIK, this is just starting. A few things (TIXO and PDP-1) paper tapes along with some PDP-8 paper tapes have been done. The large collection of 10/20 tapes from DEC haven't been touched yet. I've been discouraging them from attempting this until better drives than stock 1/2" drives can be obtained. Lyle's large collection of 8/12 DECtapes need to be read as well. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 19 16:18:18 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:18:18 -0400 Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? Message-ID: <0IIC00FWWOIGGUKA@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? > From: Brad Parker > Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:05:14 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >Hi, > >On a whim (hey, it's father's day :-) I decided to try and boot my >dormant 11/44 from the TU58 using the tu58 simulator. > >Has anyone done this? Functionally it should. last time I did it I used a real tu58 in a lab back at DEC on a reabygosh(tm) 11/44. had to run the DL port slow. >I'm being totally lazy and didn't look at the M7090 schematics (yet) and >assumed the TU58 20pin header is the same as the console 20pin header. >I also assumed it's RS-232 and not TTL. Further, I assumed it was >running at 38400 baud. Both do RS423 (6wire version of RS232, sorta), you will need to verify hookup but it works. >Naturally it didn't work right off the bat... :-) > >I know my serial port and tu58 simulator are working since they boot my >11/730 just fine. > >I'll look at the schematics but I thought I'd ask for any sage advice. > >(luckily my spare UBI board had a DD boot rom on it) > >-brad Run slower, the 11/44 the DL port used typically for TU58 is down the interrupt priority and it can loose data if too fast (overrun). I'd start at 4800 (known good) and then try 9600 or faster. Allison From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jun 19 16:40:33 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:40:33 -0400 Subject: Looking for data sheet for AY5-2376 Message-ID: <20050619214033.KHLI5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 10:09 19/06/2005 -0400, you wrote: >Dave: > > Yes, this would be a big help as it's two pages more than I have >at this point. :-) Rich, After sending you the SMC datasheet this morning, I dug a bit deeper and found the actual AY-5-2376 data sheet. I can confirm that this is the same pinout as the SMC device, and appears to be compatible. I see that Michael H. has posted a more complete SMC datasheet - that should give you everything you need, however if you wish, I can scan the AY-5-2376 datasheet for you. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From brian at quarterbyte.com Sun Jun 19 16:44:41 2005 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:44:41 -0700 Subject: Small Dumb Editor SDE Message-ID: <42B584D9.24757.A53ECBA@localhost> Hey, does anybody remember SDE, an editor for RSX-11M? SDE stood for Small Dumb Editor. It worked on VT100's only, and it really was tiny. I used it at Lawrence Berkeley Lab in the early 1980's on a PDP-11. It might have come from DECUS, but I haven't been able to find it on the decus archives online. Any info appreciated. I'd like to get a copy. thanks brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian at quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 19 16:29:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:29:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: from "Gary Sparkes" at Jun 19, 5 04:16:31 pm Message-ID: > > If it's really that big of a deal for licensed software, I have > About fifty Win95 license & cd kits sitting in a box... :) > How about a W3.11 license? Only got about 100 of them :/ No, it's not that. I believe it's perfectly possible to view and print pdfs using free software under a free operating system. The exrta costs, over the cost of the PC, are things like the broadband connection (I am not going to try to download a 10Mbyte file with a 14k4 modem...), the equipment to maintain and repair the PC (things like a BGA rework station, a faster 'scope and logic analyser than the ones I already have, etc), and, of course, a house extension to put said PC in. -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 19 16:03:28 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Several comments on crashed drive in PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <42B5A876.2000505@hachti.de> References: <200506182248.j5IMlx8T095630@dewey.classiccmp.org> <42B5A876.2000505@hachti.de> Message-ID: <200506192149.RAA24955@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> What is the "modern way" to get software into the PDP11? >> Phew. Tape normally. Small, modern PDP11s usually have TK50, and >> software is distributed on TK50. > TK50...??? It's a DEC tape. The tapes are square boxy things, about 105x105x25mm, and the drives can be cantankerous. (In particular, the mechanism that picks up the tape and gets it started in the drive tends to stop working; it's a plastic leader that hooks into a hole in the tape, and the drive firmware is too stupid to recover from failure to hook in any way but "try again". If the tape hole isn't in quite the right place, the pickup plastic flaps around again and again and wrecks itself if you don't catch it fairly soon.) > And a simple question: How does the addressing in pdp11 work? R7 > seems to be only 16 bit wide. It is. > And when I boot up the system, the MMU should be off and the memory > mapping should be direct. How do I access the upper bits of my PC > (i.e. "changing the segment")? You don't. There are no "upper bits" to the PC (nor any of the other registers); the PDP-11 is not a segmented architecture in the sense the 8086 is. With the MMU off, you can access only 64K (I think - I/D splitting happens only with the MMU on, as I recall, even on machines that have split I and D space). On most machines, that's 56K of RAM and 8K of I/O space. With the MMU on, the 17 bits of address coming from the CPU (16 bits that are usually thought of as address plus the I/D space bit) are mapped to however many your hardware supports; you can access anything you have, but you're restricted to 64K of instruction space and 64K of data space at any given moment. (Some implementations may not actually have all these lines present in hardware; this is a conceptual description. In particular, modesl without split I and D space don't implement the I/D space bit. And there may be other bits I've forgotten about.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jun 19 17:04:40 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:04:40 -0500 Subject: Archiving MFM and RLL drives In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050618110023.0532c870@mail> References: <7b8fd2408d4b45bd5dd0a2736a4936f9@bitsavers.org> <6.2.1.2.2.20050617084121.04677a18@mail> <42B3C483.2020603@oldskool.org> <6.2.1.2.2.20050618110023.0532c870@mail> Message-ID: <42B5EBF8.60405@oldskool.org> John Foust wrote: >>I've never understood the attraction to Spinrite. I borrowed a friend's copy >>of SR6 a while ago - I used it on a 4gig Samsung IDE drive and a 10gig >>Maxtor, and it didn't recover anything off them.. > > It's not supposed to be the Baby Jesus, it's just a tool in one's arsenal. Agreed. It *has* saved my butt by detecting bad spots and marking them bad before I put file data in them. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 19 17:03:22 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200506192208.SAA25067@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [...] of Tony to, in effect, criticize (or at least criticise :) >> others for not sharing his feelings here. > The fact that I criticise somebody (and I think that's a pretty > strong word for simply disagreeing with them) Not for simply disagreeing with them. For disagreeing with them vociferously and repeatedly, even after the discussion had reached a point where it was clear the disagreement was fundamental (of the "I feel A is more important than B" / "I feel B is more important than A" sort, though not that clearly presented). Or at least that's how it read to me. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mokuba at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 17:12:30 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:12:30 -0400 Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dang, seems an awful lot to maintain something that, in my experience, has a very low failure rate... I've had three harddrives go up on me (Admittingly, IBM DEATHSTARTS), one motherboard that ate ram for Breakfast! My current general use machine is a P2 400 I've had for about five years (IIRC), and it hasn't suffered a single failure in that time. I do have a faster P4 1.5GHz, but it's in more of a server roll then anything else. Though recently, I'm finding I havn't even powered up any of the machines on my desk and instead just use the iBook I have. Perhaps a cheap laptop off ebay of decent ability (Say a P2 or similar) would suit you well? Even something with dead battery (Which, I'm sure you'd get around to repairing :)) I use my laptop in such a capacity, as a portable document archive. I understand the urges to be able to repair your equipment, but dosn't it stop somewhere? :) Of course, can't refute the argument about the internet connection :) On 6/19/05 5:29 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> >> If it's really that big of a deal for licensed software, I have >> About fifty Win95 license & cd kits sitting in a box... :) >> How about a W3.11 license? Only got about 100 of them :/ > > No, it's not that. I believe it's perfectly possible to view and print > pdfs using free software under a free operating system. > > The exrta costs, over the cost of the PC, are things like the broadband > connection (I am not going to try to download a 10Mbyte file with a 14k4 > modem...), the equipment to maintain and repair the PC (things like a BGA > rework station, a faster 'scope and logic analyser than the ones I > already have, etc), and, of course, a house extension to put said PC in. > > -tony > From bqt at Update.UU.SE Sun Jun 19 17:42:02 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:42:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Several comments on crashed drive in PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <200506192116.j5JLFqIj008094@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506192116.j5JLFqIj008094@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 Philipp Hachtmann wrote: Hi. > > RSX (don't know if the other OSes do the same) write a special boot block > > on non-bootable disks. This boot block basically just prints the above > > message, and halts. All that fits fine into 512 bytes. > Aha. I also have an RSX-11M license..... But no media or a clue how to > get it into my machine. Media is usually on TK50 or 1/2" tape. > >>What is the "modern way" to get software into the PDP11? > > Phew. Tape normally. Small, modern PDP11s usually have TK50, and software > > is distributed on TK50. > TK50...??? You might know it under the name DLT. TK50 was the original DLT. It's plain and simple just a tape. > >>Is there anything like a RIM or BIN loader? > > Yes, but that is very old technology. People don't have paper tape on > > PDP-11, and haven't for a very long time. > Hm.... But I'm a paper tape enthusiast..... I just think about giving > the 11 away again - perhaps it's too modern for me..... :-) If you look for old diagnostics, old systems like DOS-11 and the like, you'll find that paper tape plays a role. RT-11, RSX and RSTS/E (as well as Unix) are still current products, still being sold. Of course they have moved on from paper tape. They actually never were paper tape based, even though you have device drivers for that medium as well. > > If you're on a bare system, with only disk drives to play with, then your > > options are limited. > I have a RX02 double diskette drive and a lot of disks.... Well, your problem is one of how to get something in there in the first place. > > The best might actually be to pretend you have a > > TU58, which speaks through a normal serial line, but is a block device, > > which most PDP11 can boot from. > May the original bootstrap code boot from a serial port directly?? Quite possibly. You can probably boot from a number of devices. Which one is selected by a block of switches on the CPU board, or if you talk interactively with the CPU, you tell it which device to boot from. > > Yes. The TU58 is a cheap block device, for which the hardware on the > > PDP-11 side actually is just a serial interface. Most boot roms know how > > to boot from one, and an emulator for the actual TU58 exist. > > The standard ROM in my 11/23+ does not boot from tu58? I would suspect it does. > >>Can I boot RT11 or RSX11 from floppy??? > > Yes. > Ok. that's the point where I try to start. I will make a floppy. Need an > image and then I'll try to put the image to onto a floppy. That can be a problem. How do you get the image onto a floppy before you have a system in which you can access the floppy? > > Oh, and I would probably try to align the drive correctly if I fooled > > around with it. You never know when another pack shows up which you might > > want to read. > > I can't realign the drive because I don't have the alignment tools, > control panel for the drive and an alignment pack. But I did not change > the head alignment when I removed the heads. Left them together without > moving relatively to each other.. Well, if you can't, then you can't. > Does anyone have experience with that "vtserver" program? > It puts it's bootcode into the pdp (via odt) and then the CPU stops. > Sometimes a single 'r' character shows up. And sometimes I see an error > message (non-existent record 13).... > I start to think about a problem with my serial port.... Are there known > issues with the console port? I have tried 300,2400,9600 and 19200. > Always errors. But NEVER while vtserver puts its startup code. Always > after vtserver has started the pdp. Can't help you there. I just play with big hardware, and have tape drives. Never tried vtserver. > And a simple question: How does the addressing in pdp11 work? R7 seems > to be only 16 bit wide. And when I boot up the system, the MMU should be > off and the memory mapping should be direct. How do I access the upper > bits of my PC (i.e. "changing the segment")? Yes. The PDP-11 is a 16-bit machine. There are no "upper" bits to the PC. The PC is plain and simple just 16 bits. Here is how it works. The MMU can be disabled or enabled. If enabled, it can be in 18-bit addressing or 22-bit addressing. When an address is gated onto the bus, it's mapped from the virtual address to a physical address. If you MMU is disabled, addresses 0-157777 (octal) gets mapped to the same physical addresses. Address 160000-177777 gets mapped to physical 17776000-17777777. If the MMU is enabled, the high three bit of a virtual address selects the PAR/PDR register pair used to relocate the virtual address to a physical address. That means your memory is divided into eight pages, and each page can map anywhere in physical memory. In 18-bit mode, only parts of the PAR register is used, while in 22-bit mode, the full content of the PAR is used. To get the physical address from a virtual address, you do: (written in C) (PAR << 6) + (VA & 017777) And the right PAR is (VA >> 13) PAR is also 16 bits. This will tell you that the page will start on a multiple of 64, and that the 6 low bits of a virtual address is unchanged. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 19 17:43:52 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:43:52 -0500 Subject: Altair Fan References: <000901c57467$a316c880$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <006b01c57520$5e3c2390$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Richard A. Cini" Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 7:41 PM > Interestingly, the Altair in question had two large caps in parallel > floating around in the case, tied to a card bracket with a twist-tie. > One of the previous owners must have replaced the original single > 90,000uF cap with two. > > $30 later from Mouser, I bought a single Sprague 100,000uF/40v cap to > replace the two and bolted it into the existing 3" bracket. > > Original? No, but neither was the earlier repair. At least it fits in > the mounting bracket and exceeds the original specs. When I posted a message talking specifically about your altair I knew where to find the "right" caps, it is too easy to fix it right. If you have to replace a part such as a transformer with one with different mounting hole to keep it working then do it please keep it working. If it is too expensive to run with a linear power supply and if going to a different power supply means it will be used then please save the parts you have to remove. I hate it when people cut holes for cables when with a little effort they don't need to please don't. There are many people with many goals that can all be considered correct by me: People that want it running right (even it it means replacing some pieces to newer technology). People that are interested in 100% original even if it doesn't work. Etc. Please just avaoid the in the dumpster rule. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sun Jun 19 18:00:23 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:00:23 +0100 Subject: Chippewa Falls Museum visit Message-ID: <1119222024.27074.32.camel@ljw.me.uk> I managed to take some time off during my visit to Minneapolis to get to Chippewa Falls Museum of Industry and Technology. It was an easy 2-hour drive, and the museum opens at 1pm on weekdays. This trip had the air of a pilgrimage for me, since I still have a Cray-1S architecture manual I ordered from them c. 1981 and I've always wanted to see where they came from. Chippewa Falls is a tiny place, and I had no trouble finding the museum (though the street it's on is currently closed off for work). I only had an hour or so there, as I had to get back to my flight later that afternoon. The museum director, Yvette Viets Flaten, is very enthusiastic about her Cray exhibits. It also turns out that her mother comes from Northampton, not far from where I live (and Chippewa Falls also had a show manufacturing industry, just like Northampton). Complete CPUs they have there (AFAIK all except the X/MP are Cray designs): CDC 160A CDC 1604 CDC 6500 CDC 7600 Cray 1 Cray X/MP Cray 2 plus various other exhibits, including a ERA magnetic drum unit and Seymour Cray's desk. You can walk around them all, and in many cases there are samples of the internal boards removed for closer viewing. There are some videos on show, but I didn't have time for those. I took a few photos, but they haven't come out too well, so I suggest anyone interested look at: http://www.spikynorman.dsl.pipex.com/CrayWWWStuff/Cfaqmustop.html http://csumc.wisc.edu/gallery/album74 It really is worth a visit, if only to see a collection of the fastest machines of their time. I think if you're travelling some distance you might be able to ask nicely and visit out of hours. I'm hoping to get back there in a month or two for a better look. One thing Yvette is after is a circular sliderule (as Cray apparently used), does anyone here have one they could spare for a good cause? There is a site with details at http://www.cfmit.org/ -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From tponsford at theriver.com Sun Jun 19 18:22:06 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:22:06 -0700 Subject: DEC collection rescue...Dallas, Tx] Message-ID: <42B5FE1E.9000500@theriver.com> For some reason, I don't see this posted after sending, so my apologies if this was posted in the meantime. This was from the comp.sys.dec newsgroup. this morning. Anybody in Dallas? > I am going to get rid of 7 or 8 VAX 6400 and 6500 machines, including > many spares, some SF-200/900 storage, and alot of other doo-dads. Some > machines have DSSI, some CI. Some have BI bus. > > All were removed from computer rooms. Most recently, a pair of hevily > loaded 6410's with BI and SF900 fresh from Sony's decommissioned fab > in San Antonio. > > Have also a couple three top-load 9-tracks like the one on the right > in this picture: > http://blues.uab.es/~enllac/enllac7/ForaOrbita/microvax.jpg > > and 6 LA120's or LA-120-like DEC consoles. Several boxes/lots of old > dec parts also. > > What's my best bet for getting one entity to come take them all, in > one lot, load them up and move them out? > > Bring two bobtail trucks with liftgates, and a couple big boys to help > load. > > Located in Dallas, Texas > > (I suppose this might be of more interest to a reseller, even if they > live on as parts, but they have to go, and I can't bear to push them > to the curb, if you understand.) > > I also have, on separate deal, about an 8' high stack of VAXstations > and storage expansion as well as about a 6' high stack of > lunchbox-style microvax 2000 stuff like this: > http://world.std.com/~mbg/mv2000f.jpg > > also CRT's for the vaxstations, extra parts, pedestal-type vaxen like > this: > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/vax/images/vax4000_4_5_600.jpg > and Q-bus boards and keyboards, VT terms, etc. > > also, much 'classic' PC stuff, very old PC/XT laptops, and enough > parts to carry you through the apocalypse after which VMS and DOS will > be the only two things still running. > > All must depart. No time for ebay. > > -- > rest begards, > Patrick Jankowiak > > - reply to r e c y c l e r AT s w b e l l DOT n e t From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 19 18:19:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:19:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: from "Gary Sparkes" at Jun 19, 5 06:12:30 pm Message-ID: > > Dang, seems an awful lot to maintain something that, in my > experience, has a very low failure rate... I've had three Low does not equal zero :-). HP calculators were built extremely well, they had a low failure rate, but I am glad I produced repair info for many of them. > harddrives go up on me (Admittingly, IBM DEATHSTARTS), one > motherboard that ate ram for Breakfast! Now, you see, I'd have wanted to figure out what was wrong with said motherboard _before_ it damaged more than one set of RAMs. > Perhaps a cheap laptop off ebay of decent ability (Say a P2 > or similar) would suit you well? Even something with dead Laptops are even more difficult to work on, even more difficult to find parts for (even board-level spares are often hard to find), and have no expansion slots.... > I understand the urges to be able to repair your equipment, > but dosn't it stop somewhere? :) I guess it does. I don't -- yet -- haev a clean room to repair winchester-type hard drives. Although I have considered some kind of 'clean box' to work on the physically larger winchseters, like the 8" and 14" drives in some of my classics. But I really don't think I have anything else that I couldn't repair if I had to. And that's the way I intend to keep things. > > Of course, can't refute the argument about the internet > connection :) Or the space. The dexktop area needed by a laptop and printer is not that much smaller than that needed by a desktop PC + not-too-large monitor + printer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 19 18:32:30 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:32:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP info and corrections Message-ID: A few things relating to HP machines, particularly the 9845 that I'm working on. Firstly, a correction about dismantling the tape drive (this also applies to the 9825 drive that Sellam was working on). I mis-remembered how the motor is fixed -- the screws don't go in from the bottom, they go in from the top (cartridge side), go through the chassis and tap into the plastic disk that holds the motor. Two of them are obvious, where you'd put the cartridge. To get to the other two, you have to remove the head (outside 2 screws on the mounting block, this shouldn't muck up the alignment) and remove the microswitches (tape inserted, write protect), again 2 screws, but the actuating pins fall out, so be careful. When you've done that, it's easy to remove the motor. Secondly, the keys do seem to work as I dsecribed, with one correction. There are 2 lopps through the torroid, and there is a magnet that affects the magnetic properites of that torroid, and thus the coupling between the wires. But the magnet is normally near the torroid and moves away when you press the key. Makes sense, I would have guesed that the magnet saturated the torroid and reduces the coupling between the loops, so this way, uou get a signal when the key is pressed. Thirdly, if you're working on the keyboard encoder board, note that the keyboard controller chip (with a custom number on my board) seems to have the same pinout as the chip in the HP250 (schematics on bitsavers). The LM311 comparator (8 lead TO99 case) is nothing to do with detecting the return pulse from the key matrix, it's used as a relaxation oscillator for the contoller clock. The return signal is detected by a couple of transistors in the CA3046 array (long tail pair circuit). Finally, I've typed out the DIO bus pinout from that HP9826/9836 Pascal system manual that's on bitsavers (this being the piece of info that's going to be the most useful to me at the momnent). If anybody wants this (a plain text file) to avoid downloading/reading the whole pdf, I can post it here. -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Jun 19 18:49:54 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:49:54 -0400 Subject: Several comments on crashed drive in PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:16:38 +0200." <42B5A876.2000505@hachti.de> Message-ID: <200506192349.j5JNnsIs001352@mwave.heeltoe.com> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >Does anyone have experience with that "vtserver" program? yes. It's great for some pdp-11's and less useful for others. >It puts it's bootcode into the pdp (via odt) and then the CPU stops. I've really only used it on a 11/34a and it worked great. It can't work on a 11/44 sadly - the console odt won't pass binary. I have never tried it on a qbus machine (23 or 73). I plan to soon. -brad From mokuba at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 18:50:36 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:50:36 -0400 Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/19/05 7:19 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> harddrives go up on me (Admittingly, IBM DEATHSTARTS), one >> motherboard that ate ram for Breakfast! > > Now, you see, I'd have wanted to figure out what was wrong with said > motherboard _before_ it damaged more than one set of RAMs. Give me credit that I realized it was eating the ram, I was 11! :) >> >> Of course, can't refute the argument about the internet >> connection :) > > Or the space. The dexktop area needed by a laptop and printer is not that > much smaller than that needed by a desktop PC + not-too-large monitor + > printer. > Understandably worried about failure, I can see where this might Be limiting, but you wouldn't need to print if you could view Onscreen, no? Though I understand how some people prefer Paper to screen, sometimes it works better and is More economical then printing out. From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun Jun 19 19:32:55 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Zax ICD-378 Z80 Debugger Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can find documentation and/or software for a Zax ICD-378 Z80 in-circuit debugger? Picked one up (for $15.00!) at the MIT Flea Market today. Any leads appreciated! Steve From hachti at hachti.de Sun Jun 19 19:37:58 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 02:37:58 +0200 Subject: VTSERVER booting Message-ID: <42B60FE6.3030503@hachti.de> Hi again, after removing all other cards from my 11/23+ my serial console seems to work error-free. Now I can bootstrap the copy utility which comes with vtserver. I can also copy something onto a formatted diskette. When I copy from diskette to the virtual tape, the copying seems to ignore the disk's end... is that correct? I simply tried to copy the copy binary itself to an rx02 and boot that. Did not work. I verified the disk contents i put on it - they're ok.... I also have tried the 2.11BSD stub which came with vtserver (boot.dd, disklabel etc). Boot.dd gave me only A LOT of: > Trap in Boot,illegal instruction at loc Trap in Boot,illegal instruction at loc Trap [...] Continues several screens and then the cpu hangs (still running) after outputting > ....instruction at loc Trap in Boot,illegal?Q?Q`?Wf? What have I done wrong? Where can I get more information about different boot roms, bootstrapping the 11/23+ and my RX02 drive (nothing on bitsavers...!?!)? What does the (which one?) boot prom put where and where does it start execution etc.? There must be cool docs which I don't know yet.... Regards, Philipp :-) From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 19 19:50:46 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:50:46 -0700 Subject: HP info and corrections Message-ID: <42B612E6.5040902@bitsavers.org> Finally, I've typed out the DIO bus pinout from that HP9826/9836 Pascal system manual that's on bitsavers (this being the piece of info that's going to be the most useful to me at the momnent). -- http://www.blobulent.com:16080/hp300/peripherals/ have a few interesting scans, like the schematic for the 98625A SCSI interface. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jun 19 20:06:17 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:06:17 -0500 Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: <42B60FE6.3030503@hachti.de> References: <42B60FE6.3030503@hachti.de> Message-ID: <200506192006.17202.pat@computer-refuge.org> Philipp Hachtmann declared on Sunday 19 June 2005 07:37 pm: > I also have tried the 2.11BSD stub which came with vtserver (boot.dd, > > disklabel etc). Boot.dd gave me only A LOT of: > > Trap in Boot,illegal instruction at loc Trap in Boot,illegal > > instruction at loc Trap [...] I'm not 100% sure if it's your problem, but 2.11BSD doesn't work on the F11 chipset (11/23) because it doesn't have split I&D space. You'll need to use 2.9BSD or earlier on it. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From hachti at hachti.de Sun Jun 19 20:12:59 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 03:12:59 +0200 Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: <200506192006.17202.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <42B60FE6.3030503@hachti.de> <200506192006.17202.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <42B6181B.6030501@hachti.de> Hi, >>>Trap in Boot,illegal instruction at loc Trap in Boot,illegal >>>instruction at loc Trap [...] > > I'm not 100% sure if it's your problem, but 2.11BSD doesn't work on the > F11 chipset (11/23) because it doesn't have split I&D space. You'll > need to use 2.9BSD or earlier on it. Hm... I'll see. At the moment I fight with my RX02 floppies and the "standalone copy program" which acts unpredictable. Are there known severe errors in the copy program distributed with vtserver? Where does vtserver's bootstrap put the data? Regards, Philipp :-) From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Jun 19 20:15:45 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:15:45 -0400 Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B618C1.5040708@compsys.to> >Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >This works, but indeed is slow. A little faster would be doing >a VTserver install, but that requires fiddling with the OS to >make it "understand" the VT: tape drive. It would be good if >some of the RT, RSX and RSTS folks on here could do this (easy) >mod, and make a dist kit for the hobbyist community. Contact >me off-list if you're interested in doing so! > Jerome Fine replies: I know you said off-list, but I think that a public discussion of exactly what such a distribution kit should consist of is well worth while. I can probably help with any RT-11 distribution. As for a bootable RT-11 kit, I suggest that if anyone is using SIMH or E11, then the RT-11 binary distributions at: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ RT11DV10.ISO.zip contains all RT-11 binary (many early ones incomplete) distributions up to V05.03 or RT-11 and is legal to use with SIMH. For a real DEC Qbus PDP-11, the RQDX3 controller and an RX50 floppy drive might be an alternative. RX50 bootable images can be produced on a PC using PUTR and a HD 5 1/4" floppy drive if you still have one, although the media MUST be the DSDD 5 1/4" media used with 360 KByte floppy drives, not the HD 1.2 MByte floppy drive - even though the HD floppy drive is actually used on the PC. When used in a BA23 box from DEC, the IO distribution panel provides the change from the 50 pin RQDX3 controller to the 34 pin connector. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Jun 19 20:16:09 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:16:09 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: References: <5f3d788f99bd5cd4739aee968f0e7cc1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42B618D9.5050303@compsys.to> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 9:27 AM -0700 6/19/05, Al Kossow wrote: > >> I've been ranting for a while now that people are saving the iron, >> but not the software that ran on it. It's surprising how little is > > Don't forget it's not just software, the people tend to toss the > manuals as well. Jerome Fine replies: With regard to RT-11, I have saved both Qbus hardware, manuals and the software. There is a (complete?) set of binary RT-11 distributions available at: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ The file is the compressed image of a CD that can be burned: RT11DV10.ISO.zip This CD image contains 13 binary RT-11 distributions from V01-15 to V05.03 of RT-11. A later CD (RT11V50.ISO) is available for RT-11 users who are legally licensed to use V05.07 of RT-11. This later CD contains 11 more binary RT-11 images from V05.04 to V05.07 of RT-11. Some of the early RT-11 binary images are probably incomplete, in particular prior to V04.00 of RT-11. The (UnZipped) file, RT11DV10.ISO can be legally used as a container file with SIMH (as far as I know) to run V05.03 of RT-11. While the individual files on the first RT-11 partition are mostly either RK05 or RL02 bootable images (truncated to remove trailing blocks of all zeros), the complete CD also contains an RT-11 file directory, in additional the the ISO9660 file directory, and the image file of the CD can be used under SIMH (RT11DV10.ISO) via: ATTACH RQ0: RT11DV10.ISO SET RQ0: LOCK BOOT RQ0: I also have a sets of DOCs available for both V05.03 and V05.07 of RT-11. >> I'm starting to think that there is going to be a pretty strange >> view of computer software in the future, since there is so MUCH >> that was saved from DEC, and almost nothing from Burroughs, >> UNIVAC, NCR, and Honeywell (the last member of the BUNCH, CDC, >> seems to have a fair amount saved, though) > > How much of this though is due to availability of the systems, and > where they were actually used? Didn't the DEC systems tend to be used > in much more open environments where the software could get out? I was > lucky to have saved the GCOS-8 manuals I've got, there is absolutely > *NO WAY* I could have gotten copies of the software, even if I'd have > considered doing such a thing at the time. How many of these systems > (and everything that went with them) were on lease, and as a result > had to go back to the manufacturer for destruction? When I was using UNIVAC and CDC hardware and their OSs back in the 1960s and 1970s, I never even thought of attempting to save the operating systems. The reason was VERY simple - the systems cost so much (usually millions) that it was impossible to ever think that I might have any of the hardware to use for myself. DEC systems were not nearly as expensive - and since the operating system could easily be copied to a tape, that was usually the simple method to have a copy. Of course, a few floppy media also were sufficient, at least for RT-11. What is interesting is that I never actually did save any of them prior to V04.00 of RT-11 successfully. > Let's not forget that there are huge chunks of DEC software that is > lost or virtually lost. Who has Pre-V4 VAX/VMS? While it might seem > like there is a lot of PDP-10 software, in reality, most of it's > gone. The early PDP-11 OS's, as well as most Layered Products are > largely missing as well (of these RT-11 has best been archived). I > honestly don't know about the state of PDP-8 software, but I know > there are definitely holes. Other than those systems, most of the > PDP's have little or no software that has been archived. As mentioned above, I have attempted to preserve all of the RT-11 binary distributions. While the binary versions starting with V04.00 (February 1980) are probably faithfully preserved, prior versions are less well archived. In addition, since I had access to only about 2/3 of the 17 RT-11 versions on RL02 media from V05.00 to V05.07, I required one individual who provided most of the remaining versions. Since I wish to keep a low profile and I do not in any manner consider myself the owner of the collection just because I put them all into one CD image, I have never associated my name with the collection and will continue to operate in that manner - unless I receive official recognition that the collection is officially sanctioned. In any case, the collection will always be available without charge for all hobby users who wish to sample RT-11. Since I have never received a single inquiry about the CD, I have not made V2-0 a high priority. V2-0 will eventually contain layered products released prior to V05.04 of RT-11 which may also be legally used under SIMH. V6-0 will contain all layered products which I can find and may also include some commented source code distributions as well. Eventually, I wish to release a Y2K set of bug fixes for V05.03 of RT-11 unless Mentec first makes V05.07 available for hobby use. Eventually, I also wish to release a set of Y9K bug fixes for both V05.03 and V05.07 of RT-11 along with many other enhancements, especially to V05.07 if Mentec allows hobby use of this version. If that is the case, the enhancements would also be freely available for commercial use without charge - although if there were any bugs that commercial users wanted fixed, and I am still around to do the work, ... At present the enhancements will include: (a) SL: (Single Line Editor) (b) BINCOM (c) ANSI support for escape sequences on the keypad during type ahead (d) MSCP support to boot all 64 active RT-11 partitions (e) Increase enhanced device support to 256 active RT-11 devices A number of bug fixes are also planned, some of which cause RT-11 to crash. Y9K support is also considered a bug fix. Any discussion of this e-mail is appreciated, especially the previous two paragraphs. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 19 20:24:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:24:04 -0400 Subject: DSD-440 and/or drive recommendation for PDP-8 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050619212404.00a35d00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I'm looking for a drive for my PDP-8 but I don't want something the weight and size of a RK-05. I also have several DSD-440 drives available to me. Does anyone know if these can be used on the PDP-8 or have any experience with them? Does anyone know what kind of controller they need when used in the 8? Or does anyone have a suggestion about what other drive can be used with the -8? I realize that the DSD-440 or other drive may not be original for the -8 but I just don't want to deal with something the size, weight and unreliability of a RK-05. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 19 20:28:25 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:28:25 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP PROGRAMMING STATION...pdp8/a, LOWER PRICE! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050619212825.00a36220@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> FYI, BONUS...use Buy It Now and I'll include a Decwriter to complete your work station! From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 19 20:51:57 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:51:57 -0700 Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on Message-ID: <42B6213D.9030903@bitsavers.org> For a real DEC Qbus PDP-11, the RQDX3 controller and an RX50 floppy drive might be an alternative. -- There are literally dozens of Qbus cards and vendors for disc and tape (Dilog, Emulex, et al.) with RL/RK/RM or MSCP emulation for MFM ESDI or SMD discs. Some of the less popular ones go fairly cheap on eBay. There has, of course, been talk off and on about IDE boards for Q and Unibus for a long time now. The RQDxx controllers are a bit clunky to use with their breakout panel if you aren't putting it into a box designed for it. I still say that the simplest thing to do is just to find a used Qbus MSCP SCSI conroller though.. If you can find someone scrapping Qbus microvaxen, they often have them hiding inside (that's where I got the ones that I have). From vrs at msn.com Sun Jun 19 22:39:13 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:39:13 -0700 Subject: DSD-440 and/or drive recommendation for PDP-8 References: <3.0.6.32.20050619212404.00a35d00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > I'm looking for a drive for my PDP-8 but I don't want something the > weight and size of a RK-05. I also have several DSD-440 drives available to > me. Does anyone know if these can be used on the PDP-8 or have any > experience with them? Does anyone know what kind of controller they need > when used in the 8? Or does anyone have a suggestion about what other > drive can be used with the -8? I realize that the DSD-440 or other drive > may not be original for the -8 but I just don't want to deal with something > the size, weight and unreliability of a RK-05. I think you are looking for one of these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5177260665 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5184859587 I don't know if Larry (sammyslave1) has any more of them, or not. (I have the DSD stuff working on my 8/e.) Vince From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jun 19 22:50:09 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Small Dumb Editor SDE In-Reply-To: <42B584D9.24757.A53ECBA@localhost> from Brian Knittel at "Jun 19, 5 02:44:41 pm" Message-ID: <200506200350.UAA15052@floodgap.com> > Hey, does anybody remember SDE, an editor > for RSX-11M? SDE stood for Small Dumb Editor. > It worked on VT100's only, and it really > was tiny. I used it at Lawrence Berkeley Lab > in the early 1980's on a PDP-11. It might > have come from DECUS, but I haven't been > able to find it on the decus archives online. > Any info appreciated. I'd like to get a copy. That sounds pretty interesting. How large was it? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I still think he needs a beating. -- Ukyo, "Ranma 1/2" --------------------- From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Jun 19 22:57:17 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:57:17 -0400 Subject: Several comments on crashed drive in PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B63E9D.1030903@compsys.to> >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I downloaded and ran the TU58 simulator on my PC, then booted RT11 off >that. I then created a bootable RT11 system disk and used the floppy to >boot. Then I could mount blank images in the TU58 simulator and copy >files from the PDP11 to the PC. Then you can use the PUTR utility to >extract files from the images on the PC into standard PC files. > > Jerome Fine replies: If you have a 5 1/4" RX50 floppy drive on a real DEC PDP-11, then it is probably much faster and easier to prepare the floppy on the PC with PUTR in the first place. If the floppy is 8" and SSSD (RX01), then I understand that a PC can also have the same, but I don't know if PUTR can also handle 8" SSSD floppy media on the PC. In any case, I have no experience with 8" floppy media on a PC. I am certainly NOT saying that a TU-58 is a bad solution, only that other solutions are often better if they are possible. If the only way to start is with a TU-58, then it is certainly better than nothing. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Jun 19 22:58:10 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:58:10 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <001201c574d4$e3dc46c0$2101a8c0@finans> References: <42B562F0.nailBZE1NVGYR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <001201c574d4$e3dc46c0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <42B63ED2.4040708@compsys.to> >Nico de Jong wrote: >A meager consolidation, but you are not the only one. Everybody, including >most of the people (I've met!) responsible for archiving important data, >believes that CDR's will last forever, and that there always will be a >Windows version (shudder). > Jerome Fine replies: I would appreciate a recommendation! How long should a CD be replied upon? If the image file for the CD is retained, how long before it will not be possible to burn a new CD and use it on what will then be a current operating system? I notice that current DVD drives are still able to read a CD. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how many decades this will still be possible? Please include the capability of being able to understand the current ISO9660 file directory on the CD (for which I have also kept the ISO image file used when I burned the CD)! I have archived RT-11 distributions on a CD and wonder how long it might be before newer OSs are no longer able to read/burn the CD. At that point, it will be necessary to use a different media so that future hobby users are able to continue to access the files. I realize that stating when the CD will no longer be readable is almost a pure guess, but I was wondering is anyone is willing to suggest if it will be less than 3 decades or more than 10 decades? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 19 23:01:40 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:01:40 -0400 Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on Message-ID: <0IID00BLB76QFUZC@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP11/23+ goes on > From: Al Kossow > Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:51:57 -0700 > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > >The RQDxx controllers are a bit clunky to use with their >breakout panel if you aren't putting it into a box designed >for it. Use the brakout designed for the BA123 to breakout a RQDX. Just put the breakout card in some unused but powered slot (last ore beyone the last) and it will be powered and expand to multiple drives. I have my 11/73 with the 18/AB backplane that way. >I still say that the simplest thing to do is just to find >a used Qbus MSCP SCSI conroller though.. If you can find >someone scrapping Qbus microvaxen, they often have them >hiding inside (that's where I got the ones that I have). It is. The problem with QBUS PDP-11 IDE is that I've not seen a design that has a DMA implementation which make it slow. Also drivers for common PDP-11 OSs other than unix are roll your own, wich is possible IF you already have a working system (with editors and asm). What makes the Qbus interface for IDE nasty is the PDP-11 read before write. That means you have to make the read addresses seperate from the write addresses. However, in the last few years there is the possibility of a flash ram disk as devices in the multimegabyte range are available. Qbus non rotating media, hummm. There one for the builders to consider. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 19 23:06:44 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:06:44 -0400 Subject: Several comments on crashed drive in PDP-11/23 Message-ID: <0IID00DUT7F6KJ0B@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Several comments on crashed drive in PDP-11/23 > From: "Jerome H. Fine" > Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:57:17 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >>I downloaded and ran the TU58 simulator on my PC, then booted RT11 off >>that. I then created a bootable RT11 system disk and used the floppy to >>boot. Then I could mount blank images in the TU58 simulator and copy >>files from the PDP11 to the PC. Then you can use the PUTR utility to >>extract files from the images on the PC into standard PC files. >> >> >Jerome Fine replies: > >If you have a 5 1/4" RX50 floppy drive on a real DEC PDP-11, >then it is probably much faster and easier to prepare >the floppy on the PC with PUTR in the first place. If >the floppy is 8" and SSSD (RX01), then I understand that >a PC can also have the same, but I don't know if PUTR >can also handle 8" SSSD floppy media on the PC. In any >case, I have no experience with 8" floppy media on a PC. It's possible to do RX01, but RX02 format is beyond what the 765 based PC clopped controller can do. RX02 is not the common style of DD format. To do SD format you need to do a fair amount of work and likely a older or even XT PC to insure the FM mode at 8" data rates is available. Easier shot is the RX50 (SSDD, 96tpi). >I am certainly NOT saying that a TU-58 is a bad solution, >only that other solutions are often better if they are >possible. If the only way to start is with a TU-58, then >it is certainly better than nothing. Bob, of spare time gizmos did it right. 8051 with 2 256kB rams to look like a TU58. Save for one difference. The seek time is way faster! Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 19 23:10:34 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:10:34 -0400 Subject: DSD-440 and/or drive recommendation for PDP-8 Message-ID: <0IID004F87LKP0XA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: DSD-440 and/or drive recommendation for PDP-8 > From: "Joe R." > Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:24:04 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > I'm looking for a drive for my PDP-8 but I don't want something the >weight and size of a RK-05. I also have several DSD-440 drives available to >me. Does anyone know if these can be used on the PDP-8 or have any >experience with them? Does anyone know what kind of controller they need >when used in the 8? Or does anyone have a suggestion about what other >drive can be used with the -8? I realize that the DSD-440 or other drive >may not be original for the -8 but I just don't want to deal with something >the size, weight and unreliability of a RK-05. > > Joe The DSD440 is unknown for PDP-8. I've always seen them on PDP-11s. The best and easiest disk for PDP-8 is a RX01 (or RX02) Floppy drive and RX8E board. Thats nice as it was supported and easy hook up and repair. Even if you don't have an RX8E its a trivial board easily copied. Allison From vrs at msn.com Sun Jun 19 23:19:21 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:19:21 -0700 Subject: DSD-440 and/or drive recommendation for PDP-8 References: <0IID004F87LKP0XA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: > The DSD440 is unknown for PDP-8. I've always seen them on PDP-11s. I've seen DSD floppies on the PDP-8 (have one, others on ePay). > The best and easiest disk for PDP-8 is a RX01 (or RX02) Floppy drive > and RX8E board. Thats nice as it was supported and easy hook up > and repair. Agreed, if you can find an RX8E. > Even if you don't have an RX8E its a trivial board > easily copied. I don't know about trivial (I am trying to do one). There are a lot of unobtainium parts in an RX8E that have to be designed out of a modern clone. (It's easily doable, but not trivial.) The same could be said for most of the Omnibus boards, actually. Vince From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 19 23:27:44 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:27:44 -0400 Subject: VTSERVER booting Message-ID: <0IID0044F8E6OBYA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VTSERVER booting > From: Patrick Finnegan > Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:06:17 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I'm not 100% sure if it's your problem, but 2.11BSD doesn't work on the >F11 chipset (11/23) because it doesn't have split I&D space. You'll >need to use 2.9BSD or earlier on it. > There are two versions of 2.11 if memory serves one with split I&D and one without. I have to check but fuzzy memory says 11/23 had I&D or was that later with the J11? I distinctly remember the MMU of the 11/23 as being software compatable with 11/34, 11/69 and 11/70 (to the limits of Q18 or Q22). I know the Falcon, LSI-11/ and 11/2 did not even have MMU. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 19 23:31:32 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:31:32 -0400 Subject: DSD-440 and/or drive recommendation for PDP-8 Message-ID: <0IID00DZI8KHKJ1B@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DSD-440 and/or drive recommendation for PDP-8 > From: "vrs" > Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:19:21 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Even if you don't have an RX8E its a trivial board >> easily copied. > >I don't know about trivial (I am trying to do one). There are a lot of >unobtainium parts in an RX8E that have to be designed out of a modern clone. >(It's easily doable, but not trivial.) Heres the trick. Don't copy the parts, copy the logic and use standard TTL. Most all the functions are easily available or or sometimes available in denser (newer relatively) parts. Trying to copy verbatim will be hard unless you have a lot of DEC junker cards to strip. However most of the logical functions are simple so substitutions are not as scary. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 23:38:06 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:38:06 -0500 Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: <0IID0044F8E6OBYA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IID0044F8E6OBYA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 6/19/05, Allison wrote: > There are two versions of 2.11 if memory serves one with split > I&D and one without. I am not aware of a non I&D version of 2.11BSD... I used to do a bunch with 2.9BSD on real hardware 18 years ago, and am pretty sure 2.9 is the last one that runs on F-11 chips. > I have to check but fuzzy memory says 11/23 had I&D or was that later > with the J11? I distinctly remember the MMU of the 11/23 as being > software compatable with 11/34, 11/69 and 11/70 (to the limits of > Q18 or Q22). The F-11 chip (11/23, 11/24) does not have split I&D. The J-11 (11/53, 11/73) does, as do some of the "big" Unibus machines of the day (11/44, 11/70 to name two). I'm not an exhaustive expert, though... I only have a couple of Split I&D machines and I've never done much with them. Most of my -11 time is on smaller and older machines. > I know the Falcon, LSI-11/ and 11/2 did not even have MMU. Right - 16 bit addressing only. -ethan From vrs at msn.com Sun Jun 19 23:45:19 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:45:19 -0700 Subject: DSD-440 and/or drive recommendation for PDP-8 References: <0IID00DZI8KHKJ1B@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: From: "Allison" > From: "vrs" > >(It's easily doable, but not trivial.) > > Heres the trick. Don't copy the parts, copy the logic and use > standard TTL. Most all the functions are easily available or > or sometimes available in denser (newer relatively) parts. > Trying to copy verbatim will be hard unless you have a lot of > DEC junker cards to strip. However most of the logical functions > are simple so substitutions are not as scary. Heh, I did that, but I shot myself in the foot by using the denser parts and not quite getting it right. Mine is actually a Posibus card (Ethan has the other prototype). There are other problems with Omnibus cards, too. You can get the bus interface close to spec., but not dead on, AFAIK with modern parts. Posibus is more forgiving. (Though you can get close enough for small Omnibus backplanes pretty easily.) Vince From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 19 23:47:18 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:47:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <42B63ED2.4040708@compsys.to> References: <42B562F0.nailBZE1NVGYR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <001201c574d4$e3dc46c0$2101a8c0@finans> <42B63ED2.4040708@compsys.to> Message-ID: <200506200450.AAA07557@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > How long should a CD be replied upon? Pressed, or CD-R? A pressed CD will likely be readable as long as the drive still works, would be my guess - especially if the CD is kept in the dark and in an inert atmosphere. A CD-R is quite a different story; I wouldn't count on them nearly as long. How long, that's another question. A decade, maybe? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 20 00:23:31 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:23:31 -0700 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <200506200450.AAA07557@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <42B562F0.nailBZE1NVGYR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <001201c574d4$e3dc46c0$2101a8c0@finans> <42B63ED2.4040708@compsys.to> <200506200450.AAA07557@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > > How long should a CD be replied upon? > >Pressed, or CD-R? A pressed CD will likely be readable as long as the >drive still works, would be my guess - especially if the CD is kept in >the dark and in an inert atmosphere. A CD-R is quite a different >story; I wouldn't count on them nearly as long. > >How long, that's another question. A decade, maybe? It really depends on the brand/type of CD-R blanks being used. I try to only use Verbatim DataLifePlus blanks, unfortunately it's getting *very* difficult to find them. I'm sure there are other good blanks out there, but I've had very good luck with these, so far. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Jun 20 03:34:03 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:34:03 +0200 (MEST) Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: <0IID0044F8E6OBYA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: > >I'm not 100% sure if it's your problem, but 2.11BSD doesn't work on the > >F11 chipset (11/23) because it doesn't have split I&D space. You'll > >need to use 2.9BSD or earlier on it. > > > > There are two versions of 2.11 if memory serves one with split > I&D and one without. No. 2.11 **only** runs on SPlitID systems. For non-ID systems, use 2.8, 2.9 or (perhaps) 2.10. Ultrix-11 runs on all of these, by the way. AND is fully supported by VTserver, as I maintain both :P > I have to check but fuzzy memory says 11/23 had I&D or was that later > with the J11? I distinctly remember the MMU of the 11/23 as being > software compatable with 11/34, 11/69 and 11/70 (to the limits of > Q18 or Q22). 11/23 is based on the F11, and therefore does *not* have SplitID (11/40,34,50,55,60,23). The /44, 45, 70, 53, 73 and up do. > I know the Falcon, LSI-11/ and 11/2 did not even have MMU. Correct, all T11 based systems, plus the /20, /10, /03 and I believe the /04 dont have MMU, and are 64K systems. --f From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 20 04:34:57 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:34:57 +0000 Subject: Chippewa Falls Museum visit In-Reply-To: <1119222024.27074.32.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <1119222024.27074.32.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <1119260097.12614.7.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 00:00 +0100, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > I managed to take some time off during my visit to Minneapolis to get to > Chippewa Falls Museum of Industry and Technology. It was an easy 2-hour > drive, and the museum opens at 1pm on weekdays. This trip had the air > of a pilgrimage for me, since I still have a Cray-1S architecture manual > I ordered from them c. 1981 and I've always wanted to see where they > came from. Thanks for the summary - I'll definitely try and visit when I'm out that way! cheers Jules From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jun 20 04:54:24 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 05:54:24 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: References: <42B562F0.nailBZE1NVGYR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <001201c574d4$e3dc46c0$2101a8c0@finans> <42B63ED2.4040708@compsys.to> <200506200450.AAA07557@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <42B69250.nailUS11FT43@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > It really depends on the brand/type of CD-R blanks being used. > I try to use only Verbatim DataLifePlus blanks, unfortunately > it's getting *very* difficult to find them. I'm sure there are > other good blanks out there [...] They aren't available at many brick-and-mortar stores, but Mitsubishi Gold CD-R's are undisputably the "gold standard". Kodak used to make Gold CD-R's too, but they got out of that business several years ago. I managed to buy a few palletfulls in their fire sale. Now Kodak has announced they'll no longer make black-and-white printing papers. I suppose that means that I have to get heavy back into B/W photography. (You'll also notice that I said "printing papers", when I was last heavy into photography Kodak was still selling "contact printing papers".) Maybe skip this whole paper thing, and print only on emulsion hand-coated on glass plates :-). Anyway, back to Gold CD-R's, they aren't real cheap, typically about $1 per CD-R. Tim. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 20 05:48:13 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:48:13 +0100 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <42B63ED2.4040708@compsys.to> Message-ID: <000001c57585$90276c10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >I would appreciate a recommendation! How long should >a CD be replied upon? You cannot rely on a CD (not even a pressed CD) for anything important. You need at least two CDs, preferably more. By the time you realise you were unlucky enough to hit the bad one in the batch, it is too late. I've had a few CD-Rs die and two DVD-Rs die. For stuff I care about, I burn to CD-R twice. I expect to take the whole lot and reburn to something else eventually. I keep waiting for the C3D or similar technology to surface (say 100GB per disc) but I'm still waiting. Given the drop in ?/GB of had drives lately, I may well put everything onto a spare drive in the meantime. > If the image file for the CD > is retained, how long before it will not be possible > to burn a new CD and use it on what will then be a > current operating system? The ISO ormat is well documented. If you ignore various copy-protections schemes, the for straight-forward normal CDs, I would be surprised if you cannot access one 100 years from now. You almost certainly won't be able to burn a new CD-R (since noone wil be making the media) but you will be able to access an ISO file. If you use something like Nero with its (I assume ...) undocumented .NRG format, you'll have to spin up an emulator and a copy of WXP with Nero. Convert to ISO before then and you should be OK. I'd be surprised if noone has a working DVD drive 50 years from now. Even the next generation stuff (HD-DVD) sounds like it will be able to read CDs. >stating when the CD will no longer be readable is almost >a pure guess, but I was wondering is anyone is willing >to suggest if it will be less than 3 decades or more >than 10 decades? Surely reading ISO9660 image files will be possible essentially forever, unless we lose the standard (or the ability to program)! Being able to read the media may prove difficult beyond 100 years or so. As long as the current equivalent to CDROM remains based on rotating media that is read optically, modifying such a drive to read a CDROM will remain feasible. Once we move to something as different to CDROM as those are to floppy disk drives, then we will get to find out how hard it is to build a drive from scratch! Has anyone built a floppy drive from scratch? Without salvaging any mechanical parts or heads from an existing floppy? I'm assuming that electronic processing is not a problem (in principle) for either floppy disks or CDROMs/DVDROMs. Antonio From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 20 05:53:05 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:53:05 +0100 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <42B69250.nailUS11FT43@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <000101c57586$3e3a4200$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >Kodak used to make Gold CD-R's too, but they got out of that >business several years ago. I managed to buy a few >palletfulls in their fire sale. What is the manufacturer's projected pre-burn shelf-life of a CD-R blank? I don't expect to need CD-Rs for future archival purposes (since I expect I'll be using DVD-R or whatever comes next), but I might want to burn a CD-R for some machine or other that does not understand anything more recent. So when I see CD-R blanks going the way of the dodo in a few years time, and I decide to do an end-of-life buy, just how long can I expect those blanks to survive on the shelf? Antonio From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 20 06:18:43 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:18:43 +0000 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <000001c57585$90276c10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <000001c57585$90276c10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <1119266323.12614.33.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 11:48 +0100, Antonio Carlini wrote: > I've had a few CD-Rs die and two DVD-Rs die. For stuff I > care about, I burn to CD-R twice. I expect to take the > whole lot and reburn to something else eventually. I > keep waiting for the C3D or similar technology to surface > (say 100GB per disc) but I'm still waiting. Given the > drop in ?/GB of had drives lately, I may well put everything > onto a spare drive in the meantime. I've been using spare drives here for backup for a long while now - I duplicate stuff to two different drives though just to inspire confidence (and use identical drives so that in theory I could part-swap if something went *really* wrong) Personally I wouldn't trust CDs for anything. > will be able to access an ISO file. If you use something > like Nero with its (I assume ...) undocumented .NRG format, > you'll have to spin up an emulator and a copy of WXP with > Nero. Convert to ISO before then and you should be OK. Wine's getting very good these days incidentally; I expect it'll be able to run Windows binaries many years after Windows itself has disappeared... > >stating when the CD will no longer be readable is almost > >a pure guess, but I was wondering is anyone is willing > >to suggest if it will be less than 3 decades or more > >than 10 decades? > > Surely reading ISO9660 image files will be possible essentially > forever, unless we lose the standard (or the ability to program)! I doubt rotating optical storage will be around forever, particularly not in the same physical size package as the current generation of disks. Maybe 20 years or so... As for the media, I don't know. Main problem I'm aware of is reading the media in drives other than the one in which the data was written (laptop / combo drives being notoriously horrible). It's no use having the media (and testing it at creation time) only to find in ten years it won't work on the current crop of hardware. Floppies suffer the same problem. That's another reason that hard drives are nice; the drive encapsulates the electronic and the mechanical side of things in one package and only presents an electrical interface to the system, so there's little to go wrong - it either works or it doesn't. > Has anyone built a floppy drive from scratch? Without salvaging > any mechanical parts or heads from an existing floppy? I'm > assuming that electronic processing is not a problem (in > principle) for either floppy disks or CDROMs/DVDROMs. I doubt it. Using the heads from an existing drive it'd not be *too* difficult given a decent workshop I expect. But fabricating heads from scratch must be a pretty difficult and expensive process... cheers Jules From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Jun 20 06:30:59 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:30:59 +0200 (MEST) Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <000001c57585$90276c10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Antonio Carlini wrote: > You cannot rely on a CD (not even a pressed CD) for > anything important. You need at least two CDs, preferably > more. By the time you realise you were unlucky enough > to hit the bad one in the batch, it is too late. Correct. I still do backups of all data (and images of media) onto DLT tapes, two copies per "volume", in separate locations. > The ISO ormat is well documented. If you ignore various > copy-protections schemes, the for straight-forward normal > CDs, I would be surprised if you cannot access one 100 > years from now. You almost certainly won't be able to burn > a new CD-R (since noone wil be making the media) but you > will be able to access an ISO file. If you use something Correct, many ISO-level image browsers exist. > like Nero with its (I assume ...) undocumented .NRG format, > you'll have to spin up an emulator and a copy of WXP with > Nero. Convert to ISO before then and you should be OK. .. and most of those browsers understand .nrgs as well. --f From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Mon Jun 20 06:56:07 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:56:07 -0400 Subject: Looking for data sheet for AY5-2376 Message-ID: Mike: Thanks very much for the data sheet. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Holley Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 4:24 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Looking for data sheet for AY5-2376 > Does anyone have a PDF copy of the data sheet for the General > Instruments AY5-2376 ASCII keyboard encoder chip? > > Rich Cini I have a 4 page version of the SMC KR-2376 on my SWTPC CT-1024 web page. It was used in the SWTPC KBD-5 keyboard. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/CT_1024/KR2376.pdf Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 20 07:27:24 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:27:24 +0000 Subject: BBC Computer Literacy Project Message-ID: <1119270444.12614.53.camel@weka.localdomain> Just been contacted by a chap who's doing a paper on the Acorn BBC micro and the BBC Computer Literacy Project of the early 80's. He's mainly interested in the politics of the whole thing though, rather than the technical side - and as he points out this isn't really well documentated anywhere as the enthusiast websites typically focus on the hardware / software. In the few cases where there are 'stories' on the 'net they seem to be just that, without any supporting original documentation or being fist-hand from BBC / Acorn employees of the time. Thought I'd ask here on the offchance there are any people lurking who were involved in the project or who have documentation from the time covering the chain of events that led to the BBC Micro... cheers Jules From river at zip.com.au Mon Jun 20 07:53:12 2005 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:53:12 +1000 Subject: Are you a specialist or a generalist? Message-ID: <018b01c57597$053e2f00$0427083d@river> Hi, Just wondering if you regard your classic computing skills as specialised or generalised? Do you have lots of various old systems with different processors and architectures, or do you specialise in a particular processor, architecture or system? I regard myself as a generalist, mainly due to the various different systems I have. I gues I just don't have the time to get extremely close and personal to one particular system. That doesn't mean I don't know my various systems, but I'm sure that someone who has devoted their time and energy to one type of system would know more about its finer details and nuances than I would. rgds river From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 20 07:50:29 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:50:29 -0500 Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050620074701.055e5e10@mail> At 04:29 PM 6/19/2005, Tony Duell wrote: >The exrta costs, over the cost of the PC, are things like the broadband >connection (I am not going to try to download a 10Mbyte file with a 14k4 >modem...), the equipment to maintain and repair the PC (things like a BGA >rework station, a faster 'scope and logic analyser than the ones I >already have, etc), and, of course, a house extension to put said PC in. There's no need to repair the hardware of a PC. If you're as frugal as you indicate, and can leave the house to rub shoulders with other computer users, you will find an unending stream of cast-off free-or-nearly-so PCs from three PC generations (four-five years) ago. As for the price of digital information: it's about time, it's about space. If you want to continue the frugal theme, doesn't your public library offer free high-speed Internet access? - John From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jun 20 08:05:27 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:05:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: BBC Computer Literacy Project In-Reply-To: <1119270444.12614.53.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1119270444.12614.53.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <44758.135.196.233.27.1119272727.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Thought I'd ask here on the offchance there are any people lurking who > were involved in the project or who have documentation from the time > covering the chain of events that led to the BBC Micro... http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Acorn/ :) Not exhaustive by any means, however...... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 20 08:17:23 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:17:23 -0400 Subject: DSD-440 and/or drive recommendation for PDP-8 Message-ID: <0IID00JEIWWS2SZE@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DSD-440 and/or drive recommendation for PDP-8 > From: "vrs" > Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:45:19 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >From: "Allison" >> From: "vrs" >> >(It's easily doable, but not trivial.) >> >> Heres the trick. Don't copy the parts, copy the logic and use >> standard TTL. Most all the functions are easily available or >> or sometimes available in denser (newer relatively) parts. >> Trying to copy verbatim will be hard unless you have a lot of >> DEC junker cards to strip. However most of the logical functions >> are simple so substitutions are not as scary. > >Heh, I did that, but I shot myself in the foot by using the denser parts and >not quite getting it right. > >Mine is actually a Posibus card (Ethan has the other prototype). There are >other problems with Omnibus cards, too. You can get the bus interface close >to spec., but not dead on, AFAIK with modern parts. Posibus is more >forgiving. (Though you can get close enough for small Omnibus backplanes >pretty easily.) > > Vince I'll limit myself to Omnibus, experience there. Posibus and older machines I've only done programming on. It's not as dire as you'd expect. There are a few characteristicts that must be met. Input current, lower is ok and newer devices are good there. CMOS as inputs must be used with care as they have to switch with a postive swing of under 3V(omnibus, any TTL/DTL interface.). The next is output drive, most newer devices exceed those. Last is output switching characteristics such as Vol at load current, again thats easily met wit newer devices. What may be a bit worrisome is that new devies sink harder on the bus and a small (10-50ohms) series resistance will damp any ringing that results. However, once your off the bus (core card logic) you can do as you please as the system doesn't see it. Use care on decodes to avoid spikes, timing races and other logic faults that can occur when using mixed speed logic. Generally good care will avoid this. The last area. Power and gound busses. Since there is a lower likelyhood of having the DEC protocards any board constructed should use good power distribution rules (better than PdP-8 days as newer is faster!). The rest of the details are in the DEC logic handbooks and PDP-8 handbooks. They are your friend, or try to be. ;) Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 20 08:22:57 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:22:57 -0400 Subject: VTSERVER booting Message-ID: <0IID00H41X62DINC@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VTSERVER booting > From: "Fred N. van Kempen" > Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:34:03 +0200 (MEST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: > >> >I'm not 100% sure if it's your problem, but 2.11BSD doesn't work on the >> >F11 chipset (11/23) because it doesn't have split I&D space. You'll >> >need to use 2.9BSD or earlier on it. >> > >> >> There are two versions of 2.11 if memory serves one with split >> I&D and one without. >No. 2.11 **only** runs on SPlitID systems. For non-ID systems, >use 2.8, 2.9 or (perhaps) 2.10. Ultrix-11 runs on all of these, >by the way. AND is fully supported by VTserver, as I maintain >both :P Ok. I only run V2.7 as unix without networking is limited usefulness to me. I'd considered 2.11 on the 11/73 but never got to it. >> I know the Falcon, LSI-11/ and 11/2 did not even have MMU. >Correct, all T11 based systems, plus the /20, /10, /03 and I >believe the /04 dont have MMU, and are 64K systems. That was a statement on my part as I've designed with the T-11 and have the full internal DOC set for that. FYI: the T-11 implmentation in the VT24x added a MMU like the 11/23 sans PDR/ACF. Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 20 08:28:43 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:28:43 +0000 Subject: BBC Computer Literacy Project In-Reply-To: <44758.135.196.233.27.1119272727.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <1119270444.12614.53.camel@weka.localdomain> <44758.135.196.233.27.1119272727.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1119274123.12633.72.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 14:05 +0100, Witchy wrote: > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Acorn/ Do you have original docs that back the info up, or contact details for any original employees (either on the Acorn or BBC side) who supplied the info? I think that's what this chap is after; there seem to be a lot of websites out there with snippets of info on that are almost certainly perfectly correct - but without any attributions (and in the context of an academic paper) they're not suitable for repeating as solid fact :-( cheers Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 20 07:55:02 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 07:55:02 -0500 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <42B63ED2.4040708@compsys.to> References: <42B562F0.nailBZE1NVGYR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <001201c574d4$e3dc46c0$2101a8c0@finans> <42B63ED2.4040708@compsys.to> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050620075351.054fcf28@mail> At 10:58 PM 6/19/2005, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >I have archived RT-11 distributions on a CD and wonder >how long it might be before newer OSs are no longer able >to read/burn the CD. At that point, it will be necessary >to use a different media so that future hobby users are >able to continue to access the files. I realize that >stating when the CD will no longer be readable is almost >a pure guess, but I was wondering is anyone is willing >to suggest if it will be less than 3 decades or more >than 10 decades? I suspect that *software* to mount an ISO file as a native filesystem will still be around in ten years on PCs, if not indefinitely on Linux. If the CD/DVD form factor endures, it's hard to imagine that they wouldn't want to retain CD/DVD readability. I've been meaning to buy a few spindles of good-quality, long-lasting CD-R and DVD media, like those made by Taiyo Yuden. - John From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Jun 20 08:45:14 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:45:14 +0200 (MEST) Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: <0IID00H41X62DINC@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: > >No. 2.11 **only** runs on SPlitID systems. For non-ID systems, > >use 2.8, 2.9 or (perhaps) 2.10. Ultrix-11 runs on all of these, > >by the way. AND is fully supported by VTserver, as I maintain > >both :P > > Ok. I only run V2.7 as unix without networking is limited > usefulness to me. I'd considered 2.11 on the 11/73 but never > got to it. V2.7 of what? --f From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 20 08:52:14 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:52:14 -0400 Subject: VTSERVER booting Message-ID: <0IID00HMBYIVDRID@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VTSERVER booting > From: "Fred N. van Kempen" > Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:45:14 +0200 (MEST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: > >> >No. 2.11 **only** runs on SPlitID systems. For non-ID systems, >> >use 2.8, 2.9 or (perhaps) 2.10. Ultrix-11 runs on all of these, >> >by the way. AND is fully supported by VTserver, as I maintain >> >both :P >> >> Ok. I only run V2.7 as unix without networking is limited >> usefulness to me. I'd considered 2.11 on the 11/73 but never >> got to it. >V2.7 of what? > >--f The current version I have operational is V2.7 on 11/23 or the 11/73 depending which one is hooked to the RL02. I have one RL02 and two RLV21s. I've considered putting up V2.11 on the 11/73 but haven't as of yet. My PDP-11 collection includes one of every Qbus CPU from LSI-11 to 11/73 in some form of operational backplane. I generally use RT-11 V5.01C though. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 20 08:58:24 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:58:24 -0400 Subject: Are you a specialist or a generalist? Message-ID: <0IID00JQXYT52WQF@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Are you a specialist or a generalist? > From: "river" > Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:53:12 +1000 > To: > >Hi, > >Just wondering if you regard your classic computing skills as specialised or > >Do you have lots of various old systems with different processors and > >I regard myself as a generalist, mainly due to the various different > >rgds >river Line breaks? I am a generalist, with focus. I have just about one of each micro or more and a large assortment of systems. I focus on CP/M based, Omnibus pdp-8e/f/m/a, Qbus PDP-11s and deskside/desktop VAXen (UvaxII, uVAX2000 and 3100s). The focus is based on hardware size and OSs represented. However, I do go off and dabble in 1802, TI9900, 8048/9 and other things that aren't comnputers. Allison From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 20 09:11:24 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:11:24 -0400 Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on (and submission for FAQ) References: <42B48249.7070409@hachti.de> <20050618133946.R2336@localhost> Message-ID: <17078.52876.883480.454206@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> * 99% anhydrous alcohol -- NOT drug-store alcohol. The usual substance is isopropyl alcohol (isopropanol). You didn't mention that -- did you mean to suggest ethanol? I suppose that would work, too. Note that anhydrous ethanol won't stay anhydrous very long; it will quickly transform itself into 96% ethanol + 4% water. I'm not sure how big a problem that would be. From vague memories, I think isopropanol doesn't do that. Tom> * Disposable nylon gloves $? Nylon, as in woven nylon? I haven't seen those. Disposable vinyl gloves are easy to find, I have a box sitting around the kitchen. There are also latex gloves; that doesn't seem like a good idea because those tend to have powder on them, and also because latex isn't all that stable. ----- Very nice description on the cleaning procedure. I've seen it done by professionals with good results. There are pack cleaning devices that don't actually clean packs -- a better name would be pack inspection devices. Among other things, they have a bright light, and a set of long skinny tilting mirrors you can use to see the entire pack surface. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 20 09:24:46 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:24:46 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) References: <5f3d788f99bd5cd4739aee968f0e7cc1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <17078.53678.3303.595949@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow writes: Al> I've been ranting for a while now that people are saving the Al> iron, but not the software that ran on it. It's surprising how Al> little is even left from late 60's IBM 360s (incl the systems Al> themselves), which was the most popular large computing system, Al> and how MUCH has been saved from DEC (thanks to the efforts of Al> collectors and CHM). Perhaps because DEC computers were fun and 360s were not? Al> I'm starting to think that there is going to be a pretty strange Al> view of computer software in the future, since there is so MUCH Al> that was saved from DEC, and almost nothing from Burroughs, Al> UNIVAC, NCR, and Honeywell (the last member of the BUNCH, CDC, Al> seems to have a fair amount saved, though) True. Is there even an emulator for the B-6700 series? Then again, there are even darker spots. Some time ago I went looking for documentation about some Philips computer and found absolutely nothing -- not just for the model I wanted, but nothing for any model at all. About the only thing I could find was a picture of a cover page of some manual (in the Google cache, though the website itself no longer had it). Given that a fair number of CC contributors are European, this is slightly surprising. Not that Philips ever was a particularly impressive computer maker, but they did have some interesting machines. The EL-X8 is historically very significant indeed (for reasons of software, not hardware). And there were some other interesting machines; I remember a minicomputer with 24-bit words and French opcode mnemonics. paul From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Jun 20 09:25:18 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:25:18 +0200 Subject: Are you a specialist or a generalist? In-Reply-To: <018b01c57597$053e2f00$0427083d@river> References: <018b01c57597$053e2f00$0427083d@river> Message-ID: <20050620142518.GJ4498@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2005-06-20 22:53:12 +1000, river wrote: > Hi, > > Just wondering if you regard your classic computing skills as > specialised or generalised? I guess I'm more one of the "specialised" guys, but things evolve over time. My preferred architecture changed several times during the last years (be it small things like C64, going over to Alpha, Sparc32, PA-RISC1.1, DECstations, SGI stuff, now it's VAXen running Linux). My general *interest* is in all kind of all machines, but due to space requirements (and available free time) I'm forced to focus myself. Though, I'd *love* to work with old computers (like in a museum) all the day, but that's most probably kinda unrealistic... > Do you have lots of various old systems with different processors > and architectures, or do you specialise in a particular processor, > architecture or system? I usually keep my old stuff around, but don't use it all that much. Though, I'd *love* to show it off publically, like another guy does. (He's opening his little data centre these days, look at http://www.vaxman.de/my_machines/computer_room/invitation.html . This link was sent to some DECUS mailing list). MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 20 09:42:24 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:42:24 -0400 Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on References: <0IID00BLB76QFUZC@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <17078.54736.98231.36143@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: Allison> The problem with QBUS PDP-11 IDE is that I've not seen a Allison> design that has a DMA implementation which make it slow. Allison> Also drivers for common PDP-11 OSs other than unix are roll Allison> your own, wich is possible IF you already have a working Allison> system (with editors and asm). Or worse... Adding any device driver to RSTS, never mind a disk driver, requires a full source kit and a bunch of undocumented procedures. That OS never supported customer-supplied device drivers. RT and RSX are certainly more accommodating in that respect. paul From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Jun 20 09:52:22 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:52:22 +0200 (MEST) Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: <0IID00HMBYIVDRID@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: Allison: Tried to reply off-list, but got this: (reason: 550 You are not permitted to send mail. Please visit http://www.verizon.net/whitelist to request removal.) and I sure as hell will not fill out Verizon forms just to be able to send one of their customers email... --f From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 20 10:03:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:03:37 +0000 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <17078.53678.3303.595949@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <5f3d788f99bd5cd4739aee968f0e7cc1@bitsavers.org> <17078.53678.3303.595949@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1119279817.12614.96.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 10:24 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow writes: > > Al> I've been ranting for a while now that people are saving the > Al> iron, but not the software that ran on it. It's surprising how > Al> little is even left from late 60's IBM 360s (incl the systems > Al> themselves), which was the most popular large computing system, > Al> and how MUCH has been saved from DEC (thanks to the efforts of > Al> collectors and CHM). > > Perhaps because DEC computers were fun and 360s were not? One thing we find here is that it's a struggle to get anything from the late 60's / early 70's that isn't DEC. Bear in mind that most of our bigger systems tend to come from companies who have retired systems lurking in storage, not from invididuals. I don't know why, but generally it's only the DEC stuff that's survived from that era (of the large machines). Maybe it's that other companies of the time disappeared whereas DEC kept on going and continued to supply hardware - and so there was less incentive to hang on to the old hardware "just in case" when systems were upgraded? We were lucky to get that PR1ME 750 recently; it's the only large PR1ME I've known of in the last couple of years - yet they must have been *reasonably* common at one point. We do have various 60's / 70's hardware (Elliott / Digico / Marconi / BCL) (and a BCL Susie and a Norsk Data system on the way at some point) but non-DEC stuff is hard to come by. Even bigger stuff is even worse, although it's possible that some financial houses and defence places still have large ICL mainframes and the like tucked away in storage. > Al> I'm starting to think that there is going to be a pretty strange > Al> view of computer software in the future, since there is so MUCH > Al> that was saved from DEC, and almost nothing from Burroughs, > Al> UNIVAC, NCR, and Honeywell (the last member of the BUNCH, CDC, > Al> seems to have a fair amount saved, though) On that front, we are more fortunate with documentation - we've got a *lot*, including non-DEC stuff, for that sort of era (but typically just fragments that people have hung onto as souvenirs, not complete doc sets). It's just a shame that so much of the non-DEC hardware seems to have vanished. Given the crowded nature of the UK, I doubt much of it is lurking in the hands of private collectors. > Then again, there are even darker spots. Some time ago I went looking > for documentation about some Philips computer and found absolutely > nothing -- not just for the model I wanted, but nothing for any model > at all. About the only thing I could find was a picture of a cover > page of some manual (in the Google cache, though the website itself no > longer had it). Yep, that's been my experience too when I was looking for info on my P3800 - there's nothing out there for Philips at all it seems (at least not for their larger machines) :-( cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 20 10:42:12 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:42:12 -0400 Subject: VTSERVER booting Message-ID: <0IIE0057O3MC3A30@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VTSERVER booting > From: "Fred N. van Kempen" > Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:52:22 +0200 (MEST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Allison: > >Tried to reply off-list, but got this: > > (reason: 550 You are not permitted to send mail. Please visit >http://www.verizon.net/whitelist to request removal.) > >and I sure as hell will not fill out Verizon forms just to be able >to send one of their customers email... > >--f Fred. I have no clue as to what is going on. Mail here works fine and there is no blacklist setup I'm using or have invoked. The only thing I could guess at is your domain is a known spam address or has been associated somehow with one. FYI: the address is a j p 166 @ v e r i z o n . net remove spaces. Allison From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Thu Jun 16 21:22:43 2005 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:22:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: vectrex schematics wtd... In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 17, 2005 12:54:48 AM Message-ID: <200506170222.j5H2Mhcu025589@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> http://www.classicgaming.com/vectrex/ Has the service manual, hacks, fixes, etc. Marty From hatfield at bellsouth.net Fri Jun 17 04:10:00 2005 From: hatfield at bellsouth.net (Fred Hatfield) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 04:10:00 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 22, Issue 25 References: <200506162147.j5GLl8rL065013@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001f01c5731c$57551740$0202a8c0@ORG> > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:34:49 +0200 > From: Jochen Kunz > Subject: Re: PDP-8s and -10s > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <20050616103449.0e33cb3f.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 05:53:53 +0100 > "Andy Holt" wrote: > > [CDC6600 in a FPGA] >> As the 6600 was entirely built with discrete components, not chips, >> and yet had to be physically relatively compact, I doubt if it had >> much more than say 20,000-25,000 gates. Nowadays that isn't anywhere >> near high end of the FPGA ranges. > I don't know how many gates, but the Book "Design of a Computer CDC6600" > states on page 20: "the entire 6600 Computer contains approximately > 400,000 transistors". It used "Direct-Coupled Transistor Logic" so there > where way less then 400,000 gates. > -- > > > tsch??, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ > > > > My Xport 2.0 for Gameboy Advance programming has a programmable FPGA with 150,000 gates. Doesn't seem to be uncommon by today's standards. See: Gameboy Advantage for Non-Gaming Applicatiions Turning a fun toy into a powerful tool Dr. Dobb's Journal, May 2004. Embedded Systems http://www.ddj.com Fred K8VDU From bv at norbionics.com Fri Jun 17 08:31:22 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:31:22 -0400 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <42B1E69D.2030701@oldskool.org> References: <200506021741.j52HeuXW027562@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <42A74B33.2020902@oldskool.org> <42B1E69D.2030701@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <5f1eff9d1fef7b8d63a1a95026b7cc83@norbionics.com> On 16 Jun, 2005, at 16:52, Jim Leonard wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: >> Bj?rn Vermo wrote: >>> In order to avoid technical lock-in today, my preferred document >>> format is XML with CSS styling, either with an XHTML DTD or, >>> ideally, a DTD tailored to the usage area and reflected by the >>> stylesheets. Bitmap images are ideally PNGs, photographs JPEG 2000, >>> and vector images are SVG. There exists a plethora of free tools to >>> work with, transform and generate this kind of document. >> Please name some. > > Still waiting, Bj?rn... Sorry, I am away from my references now - I will be in Pennsylvania for much of the summer (visiting my wife?s family). I turned off the network back home for safety reasons, so I will have to check around on the web once I get settled down. Right now I only have what is on my PowerBook G4, which is mostly work-related, but my wife is building me a PC to run Linux on. When that is running, I can set up a test environment to do this kind of stuff in. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Fri Jun 17 08:54:12 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:54:12 -0400 Subject: Default password for Pick system on an AT? In-Reply-To: <001201c572d2$97d0a860$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00b301c571ef$c60c6270$1502a8c0@ACER> <001201c572d2$97d0a860$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3eada04dd916ff1163174c386fd031d1@norbionics.com> On 16 Jun, 2005, at 20:22, Jay West wrote: > Richard wrote... > ... >> One concern is that I did NOT get any install disks or docs, and the >> hard drive this is on is an ancient one, making funny noises.... >> Hopefully it'll last a little while.... > FYI - Pick/AT uses a totally nonstandard disk format. However, at > least it obeys FDISK rules and lives in a partition. A replacement > drive would have to be identical, and your copy would have to be "bit > level", nothing that tries to understand a "filesystem". I have no knowledge of the details of Pick, but if it uses FDISK-compatible partitions it should also use standard sectors. In that case, it should be possible to copy to a larger disk drive, just deliberately wasting disk space by not using the extra sectors per track. It means you would have to do sector-level copying, but unless the system is really weird it ought to work. -- -bv From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 23:24:39 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: yellowed murky plastic Message-ID: <20050619042439.21967.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> I would imagine this question has been asked hundreds of times, but what to do about it? Im guessing soaking it in bleachy water (50/50?). What say you? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Jun 20 11:05:50 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:05:50 -0500 Subject: BBN TC2000 rescued (was: May need help with rescue in RI) In-Reply-To: <20050619185359.749A870CA09F@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050620110511.0243f238@mail.ubanproductions.com> Indeed! And I managed to rescue the software as well:-) --tom At 11:53 AM 6/19/2005 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >Great news, Tom! From news at computercollector.com Mon Jun 20 11:03:54 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:03:54 -0400 Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: <20050619042439.21967.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200506201611.j5KGBgKe016935@keith.ezwind.net> A good topic for the classiccmp knowledge base! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 12:25 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: yellowed murky plastic I would imagine this question has been asked hundreds of times, but what to do about it? Im guessing soaking it in bleachy water (50/50?). What say you? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Jun 20 10:32:17 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:32:17 -0400 Subject: Are you a specialist or a generalist? In-Reply-To: <20050620142518.GJ4498@lug-owl.de> References: <018b01c57597$053e2f00$0427083d@river> <20050620142518.GJ4498@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <42B6E181.40504@atarimuseum.com> I used to be specially generalized, but now I'm generally specialized :-) Curt Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: >On Mon, 2005-06-20 22:53:12 +1000, river wrote: > > >>Hi, >> >>Just wondering if you regard your classic computing skills as >>specialised or generalised? >> >> > >I guess I'm more one of the "specialised" guys, but things evolve over >time. My preferred architecture changed several times during the last >years (be it small things like C64, going over to Alpha, Sparc32, >PA-RISC1.1, DECstations, SGI stuff, now it's VAXen running Linux). > >My general *interest* is in all kind of all machines, but due to space >requirements (and available free time) I'm forced to focus myself. >Though, I'd *love* to work with old computers (like in a museum) all the >day, but that's most probably kinda unrealistic... > > > >>Do you have lots of various old systems with different processors >>and architectures, or do you specialise in a particular processor, >>architecture or system? >> >> > >I usually keep my old stuff around, but don't use it all that much. >Though, I'd *love* to show it off publically, like another guy does. >(He's opening his little data centre these days, look at >http://www.vaxman.de/my_machines/computer_room/invitation.html . This >link was sent to some DECUS mailing list). > >MfG, JBG > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 6/17/2005 From cb at mythtech.net Mon Jun 20 11:10:48 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:10:48 -0400 Subject: Still Available for free Message-ID: I still have a Tandy 1000 with monitor and printer, several IBM XTs and IBM ATs, some Corona luggables, and some Compaq luggables. All available free for anyone that wants to pick them up in Northern NJ (Ridgewood). I'm also willing to deliver to anywhere along my normal travel routes (um, well, that is still Northern NJ, but I go to Wayne on a fairly regular basis). They are taking up space that I need to recover. I've lost interest in them, but I can't bear to throw them out. I'd really rather not ship due to the time/effort involved, but if you can't pick up, and are too far out of my range for me to deliver, and you really want one, let me know, maybe we can work something out. -chris From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 20 11:16:29 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:16:29 -0500 Subject: yellowed murky plastic References: <20050619042439.21967.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000d01c575b3$6bc007f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone should write up a classiccmp knowledge base article on this topic and post it to www.classiccmp.org/kb And by the way, thanks to the people who have been continuing to contribute articles! Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 11:24 PM Subject: yellowed murky plastic >I would imagine this question has been asked hundreds > of times, but what to do about it? Im guessing soaking > it in bleachy water (50/50?). What say you? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 20 11:38:54 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <17078.53678.3303.595949@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > Perhaps because DEC computers were fun and 360s were not? Yes, that is it. However, Univacs were apparently "fun" as well. > Given that a fair number of CC contributors are European, this is > slightly surprising. Not that Philips ever was a particularly > impressive computer maker, but they did have some interesting > machines. Yes, but Phillips was never even a dream close to being part of the BUNCH or IBM. "Interesting" does not always mean "historically significant", as well. There are many "firsts" in the field of computering that did not amount to a hill of beans - often the "seconds" are the ones that matter. History tends to be defined by the common stuff, basically. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 20 11:41:35 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Scientist article on retro computing Message-ID: <200506201641.JAA14146@clulw009.amd.com> He has been talking with Al Gore again. ;) Dwight >From: "J.C. Wren" > >How could that be? From the headline: "10:30 19 June 2005" > > --jc > >'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > >>I guess you didn't notice that I posted the same link on Thursday. :) >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >>On Behalf Of J.C. Wren >>Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 8:47 AM >>To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>Subject: New Scientist article on retro computing >> >> >> >> >> >> > From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Jun 20 11:42:30 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:42:30 -0400 Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: <200506201611.j5KGBgKe016935@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200506201611.j5KGBgKe016935@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42B6F1F6.4000607@atarimuseum.com> I have a friend who is a major Mac geek (infact his license plate is macgeek) and he used to fill his tube up with cleaning solution and soak old Mac cases and Apple ][ cases for days on end to reduce the discoloration. It all depends on the reason for the discoloration - some are from heat, cigarette/tar residue, others are from sun UV exposure and others were from just the grade of plastic and color mixture (I used to pull virgin Atari ST's out of there boxes and find them discolored, I noted this with some of Apple's platinum line of computers during the "Quadra Years" that the plastics would discolor just from the quality of plastic. Some of the discoloration can be superficial while others go right to the core of the plastic parts. Curt 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >A good topic for the classiccmp knowledge base! > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Chris M >Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 12:25 AM >To: cctech at classiccmp.org >Subject: yellowed murky plastic > >I would imagine this question has been asked hundreds of times, but what to >do about it? Im guessing soaking it in bleachy water (50/50?). What say you? > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 6/17/2005 From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 20 11:51:02 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:51:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: <42B6F1F6.4000607@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: The best thing to do, and actually the most "correct" from a restoration standpoint, is to paint the plastic. Paint can always be removed. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From hotzet at uchicago.edu Mon Jun 20 11:51:47 2005 From: hotzet at uchicago.edu (Timothy Hotze) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:51:47 -0500 Subject: Slightly (ok, maybe more than slightly) OT: Old Yellow Book CDs Message-ID: <660992524f954f80839275034f991912@uchicago.edu> Hi, My name's Tim Hotze, some really long term members with archives that go way back may find that I used to be semi-active here years ago. Now I'm working with a cultural policy group at the University of Chicago, and I'm part of a project that is using (amongst other sources) Yellow Book data. Whic his great for this year. And even great for last yeah, when we have data. Its not great for 1996, or 1992, or any other year - we can't find electronic data from previous years; websites are updated continually. Libraries that I've searched have this years, maybe last years, but don't keep any older data available. So here's where I think you guys may be able to help.... as I recall from my days of hunting garage sales, there's a lot of chaff with the wheat. I also remember there being published Yellow Book or business listing CDs in the 1990's - especially before the dot-com era. I wanted to know if anybody can remember these, if anybody has seen them around lying with 486s that you don't want to find when you're really looking for an IMSAI or Apple II, and, while I'm at it, if maybe anybody knowsi f any older form of this kind of business data that was in some kind of machine-readable format? I'm really sorry for making my 1st post back an off-topic one, but I've contacted everyone that publishes yellow page books without success, or, appearant knowledge of well, anything, when I've gotten a reply at all, and this was the best lead I could think of. Thanks so much, Tim From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 20 11:55:47 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:55:47 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) References: <17078.53678.3303.595949@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17078.62739.781559.900455@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> Given that a fair number of CC contributors are European, this is >> slightly surprising. Not that Philips ever was a particularly >> impressive computer maker, but they did have some interesting >> machines. William> Yes, but Phillips was never even a dream close to being part William> of the BUNCH or IBM. William> "Interesting" does not always mean "historically William> significant", as well. There are many "firsts" in the field William> of computering that did not amount to a hill of beans - William> often the "seconds" are the ones that matter. History tends William> to be defined by the common stuff, basically. True. But other computer makers of even lower stature have shown up on the CC list, and in bitsavers. Apart from the big ones, it seems to be just a random process that determines which machines appear and which ones do not. For example, I can't think of any other reason why Varian would show up in Al's archive and Philips would not... paul From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 12:04:46 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:04:46 -0400 Subject: No body wants this vaxstation 3100 M76 in M38 case?(ebay) Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=5782002532 a M76 with M38 case. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 20 12:07:53 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) Message-ID: <20050620170753.9693770CA1A4@bitsavers.org> True. But other computer makers of even lower stature have shown up on the CC list, and in bitsavers. Apart from the big ones, it seems to be just a random process that determines which machines appear and which ones do not. For example, I can't think of any other reason why Varian would show up in Al's archive and Philips would not... -- Varian was actually in the top 10 of minicomputer makers for a short time in the early 70s. I have almost nothing on non-US computer systems. Those sorts of things never show up here. I've picked up a few things on Ferranti though auctions. It IS a 'random' process of what software and documentation can still be found. I also wanted to mention since people have been offering newer manuals lately that I've been limiting what I've been putting up to pre-IBMPC era (early 80's) and mostly non-consumer computer documentation. There seems to be decent coverage of the consumer stuff elsewhere, and the workstation war era stuff is a bit too new. From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Jun 20 12:12:13 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:12:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: <200506201400.j5KE0DNl016799@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506201400.j5KE0DNl016799@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 "Fred N. van Kempen" wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Allison wrote: > > > >I'm not 100% sure if it's your problem, but 2.11BSD doesn't work on the > > >F11 chipset (11/23) because it doesn't have split I&D space. You'll > > >need to use 2.9BSD or earlier on it. > > > > > > > There are two versions of 2.11 if memory serves one with split > > I&D and one without. > No. 2.11 **only** runs on SPlitID systems. For non-ID systems, > use 2.8, 2.9 or (perhaps) 2.10. Ultrix-11 runs on all of these, > by the way. AND is fully supported by VTserver, as I maintain > both :P Don't think 2.10 will run on non split-I/D machines either. > > I have to check but fuzzy memory says 11/23 had I&D or was that later > > with the J11? I distinctly remember the MMU of the 11/23 as being > > software compatable with 11/34, 11/69 and 11/70 (to the limits of > > Q18 or Q22). > 11/23 is based on the F11, and therefore does *not* have SplitID > (11/40,34,50,55,60,23). The /44, 45, 70, 53, 73 and up do. Almost. Non I/D: 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20, 11/21, 11/23, 11/24, 11/34, 11/35, 11/40, 11/60. Split I/D: 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, 11/74, 11/83, 11/84, 11/93, 11/94. Did I forget any? :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jun 20 12:12:35 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:12:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: BBC Computer Literacy Project In-Reply-To: <1119274123.12633.72.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1119270444.12614.53.camel@weka.localdomain> <44758.135.196.233.27.1119272727.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <1119274123.12633.72.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1116.82.152.112.73.1119287555.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Do you have original docs that back the info up, or contact details for > any original employees (either on the Acorn or BBC side) who supplied > the info? Yarr, most of it came from the weighty tome (as it was in the day) Your Computer along with a YC interview with Chris Curry that's also on the site somewhere, there'll be a couple of mails somewhere too I'd think. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 20 12:20:52 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:20:52 -0400 Subject: VTSERVER booting References: <200506201400.j5KE0DNl016799@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <17078.64244.701786.32953@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Johnny" == Johnny Billquist writes: Johnny> Almost. Non I/D: 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20, 11/21, Johnny> 11/23, 11/24, 11/34, 11/35, 11/40, 11/60. Johnny> Split I/D: 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, Johnny> 11/74, 11/83, 11/84, 11/93, 11/94. Johnny> Did I forget any? :-) T-11 :-) Most of the ones you listed have no MMU at all, so "not applicable" would be more accurate for those. paul From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Jun 20 12:22:46 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:22:46 +0200 (MEST) Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Don't think 2.10 will run on non split-I/D machines either. I thought so too, but wasnt sure. > Almost. > Non I/D: 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20, 11/21, 11/23, 11/24, 11/34, > 11/35, 11/40, 11/60. /05 is /10, /21 doesnt exist (== Falcon SBC), /35 is /40. /15 I believe was a special-case /20 ? > Split I/D: 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, 11/74, 11/83, > 11/84, 11/93, 11/94. > > Did I forget any? :-) M70, M100, M110 :P --f From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jun 20 12:25:22 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:25:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Multitech Microprofessor available Message-ID: <1265.82.152.112.73.1119288322.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Folks, Had a mail from someone who has a complete working MPF1 for sale. He doesn't mind where it's shipped as long as you pay the shipping, and its power supply is 110V. Contact him at edvardsens at yahoo.co.uk Ta. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 20 12:52:52 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading Message-ID: <200506201752.KAA14178@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Gary You didn't say what the main issue is? The problem could be most any thing. Have you listened to the recordings to make sure you don't have dropouts? Do you have an oscilloscope that you can use to look at what the Z80 sees? If you have dropouts caused by wrinkled tapes, wind the tape backwards and let it sit for about a week. If it is folded, you may have to do some more serious recovery tricks. I've has to do this on Poly88 tapes. It may also be a problem in the Sinclair. Sometimes the ceramic capacitors become leaky. This can effect the threshold of the input comparitor. There are still more things to look at. Try to isolate the problem. Things like, are you get partial reads? And things like was meantioned about tape speeds. If you are using a hi-fi unit, most line outs don't provide enough signal level. Dwight >From: "Gary Sparkes" > >I'm having a hell of a time getting any program to load, so far I've been >Totally unsuccessful. > >Anyone have any tips or advice they can throw at me? >Would love to hear anything at all :) > > > From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 20 13:04:29 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:04:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <17078.62739.781559.900455@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > True. But other computer makers of even lower stature have shown up > on the CC list, and in bitsavers. Apart from the big ones, it seems > to be just a random process that determines which machines appear and > which ones do not. For example, I can't think of any other reason why > Varian would show up in Al's archive and Philips would not... I doubt there were ever more than 100 Phillips machines in the US at any given time. Perhaps in Europe they were more popular, but here they were effectively not even a tiny speck in the minicomputer industry. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jun 20 13:39:14 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:39:14 +0100 Subject: Are you a specialist or a generalist? In-Reply-To: <018b01c57597$053e2f00$0427083d@river> References: <018b01c57597$053e2f00$0427083d@river> Message-ID: <5a9e1a7e4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <018b01c57597$053e2f00$0427083d at river> "river" wrote: Mm. Long unwrapped lines. So much for netiquette I guess. > Do you have lots of various old systems with different processors and > architectures, or do you specialise in a particular processor, architecture > or system? Not really. My main interest is in early-ish microcomputers and single-board machines. Stuff like the MOS (later Commodore) KIM-1, Synertek SYM-1 (aka SY-VIM-1) and Multitech Micro-Professor. I've also got a working Acorn BBC Master 128, with Viglen dual 5.25 disc drive, Epson LX80 printer, Microvitec Cub 653 monitor and a box of ROM cartridges. Oh, and it's got a 420MB Conner hard drive grafted onto the 1MHz Bus via an IDE adapter. Great fun to play with :) I wouldn't mind getting a Commodore 64 or C128, but there are other things I want more (a SYM-1 is really high on my wants list). I've got a Jupiter Ace here, but I need to get the motherboard back... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... If it wasn't for C, we would be using BASI, PASAL and OBOL! From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jun 20 13:54:30 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:54:30 -0500 Subject: DSD-440 software Message-ID: <42B710E6.4050506@mdrconsult.com> I just got my DSD-440 cleaned up, checked out, and attached to a machine this weekend, and it seems to be working fine. (Thanks, Joe!) What I don't have is the diagnostic disk that shipped with it. According to the DSD-440 user guide, the disk came with FRD440 as both a standalone utility and as an RT-11 program, FRD440.SAV. I'd like to have the bootable disk, if anybody has one they can copy, but I'd be very happy with just the RT-11 program. Thanks! Doc From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Mon Jun 20 13:38:23 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:38:23 +0200 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) References: Message-ID: <002501c575c7$3d8d9dc0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 8:04 PM Subject: Re: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) > > For example, I can't think of any other reason why > > Varian would show up in Al's archive and Philips would not... > > I doubt there were ever more than 100 Phillips machines in the US at any > given time. Perhaps in Europe they were more popular, but here they were > effectively not even a tiny speck in the minicomputer industry. > I only know about a few of Philips' types : the 400/4000 series and the 800/6000 series. The 400 series was basically an office computer, obsolet around 1984/85. It was superseded by the 4000, which could be programmed in Cobol (I've done that myself), and supported a number (6?) of terminals. The 800 was mainly (in Denmark) used for medical purposes, but never very popular. The 6000's basic hardware was identical to the 800's, but improved by the Swedish subsidiary, PEAB (Philips Elektronikindustri AB) in Stockholm. It was very popular in banks, for front- and backoffice operations. In Denmark, there were 3 main uses : - a local authority system, so they could enter bills to be paid, write checks, do social security, enter year-end declarations, off-line printer (*), concentrator / line multiplexor (*) - a front office system for the railways' seat reservation (including car ferry reservation) and the printing of reservation receipts. the "big iron" was a Siemens mainframe - a data entry system for the postal authorities Then there was an attempt to enter the ATM marked, based on a Diebold cash dispenser (my project) (*) the 6000's were connected to an IBM mainframe at Kommunedata, which is a servicebureau for the local authorities. They would generate print files during the night, which would then be sent automatically. This enabled the authorities to do full-speed printing, as the max line speed was 9.600 bps, and as Kommunedata had some terrible response times, the printer would stop and start endlessly. I do have most of the software from this period, including the system software. And then there was the 7000, which was a bastard collected from a number of hardware vendors. The tape drive was Pertec, the disks were Control Data, as were the floppy drives (8"). The CPU was some mini (not the DG Nova), but I cant remember which one it was. In fact, we used to joke about the bastard, as apart from the CPU, it was obviously identical to the Regnecentralen 4000, a danish system. Nico From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 20 14:48:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: <20050618231940.5c5140e4.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > A somewhat 'crude' but simple thing you can try is to listen to the > audiotape sound of the tape you created which you say was successful. > Then listen audibly to the tapes you're trying to recover. If the pitch > seems to match for the most part it isn't a speed problem. If you have > an oscilloscope, look at the amplitude of the signal out of the cassette > drive of the new 'working' tape and compare to the one you're trying to > recover. As others have suggested, use the simplest tape player you can find. Noise reduction circuits and other fancy technology will only cause problems. > I haven't done this, but there are decent tools nowadays for what could > be called 'high performance audio editing' that you can throw at the > problem, if you use your sound card to digitize the audio to a WAV file. > I use Cool Edit 2000 (much less expensive than full-bore Cool Edit, > probably no longer available) for audio work. There are a LOT of > powerful tools for fiddling with audio now that we have all the > horsepower for DSP that a modern pee-cee provides. I recommened Total Recorder. It's inexpensive and the folks that develop it are very nice. They've allowed me to upgrade to new versions without any additional fee, and they're very responsive through e-mail. I registered it years ago to use for recording VCF talks but never used it. I recently started using it to digitize audio tapes and find it very nice to use. > Somebody should develop an 'audio datacassette emulator' for the kind of > thing you're trying to do. I have a T/S 1000 that I'd use more if I had > something like that to use with it. Ideally it would even have a > 'remote on' input, i.e. the TRS-80 Model 1 could turn the drive on and > off directly. I have a device that you plug inline between the tape player and the computer. You then turn up the volume all the way on your tape player and it normalizes the tones so that your computer gets a perfect read everytime. I forget what it's called but I'll check it out later today and report back. It's specifically for the TRS-80 so I don't know if it would work on every computer with different encoding schemes.. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Jun 20 15:00:50 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:00:50 -0700 Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: <20050619185014.8E5C970CA09B@bitsavers.org> References: <20050619185014.8E5C970CA09B@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200506201300.50512.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 19 June 2005 11:50, Al Kossow wrote: > Sun-labeled ones are what you should watch for. > They all seem to have the 800bpi option, and are SE SCSI. > > > > -- > > Spotted one over at Weird Stuff for $50 today. I checked out all the drives at Weird Stuff and none have the 800bpi option. I've got 'em scouting for more drives (none in the back - "authorized employee only" area either)... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Jun 20 15:00:50 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:00:50 -0700 Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: <20050619185014.8E5C970CA09B@bitsavers.org> References: <20050619185014.8E5C970CA09B@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200506201300.50512.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 19 June 2005 11:50, Al Kossow wrote: > Sun-labeled ones are what you should watch for. > They all seem to have the 800bpi option, and are SE SCSI. > > > > -- > > Spotted one over at Weird Stuff for $50 today. I checked out all the drives at Weird Stuff and none have the 800bpi option. I've got 'em scouting for more drives (none in the back - "authorized employee only" area either)... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 20 14:56:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hitachi rescued In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > The AS/6 was a IBM S/370 clone, made in the late 1970s to compete with the > 303x line of machines from IBM. According to some old mainframers, the > machine was roughly equivalent to an IBM 3031, or as another put it, an > S/370 model 168 with "crap channels". Talk to Hans Franke. I think this is the same model that we rescued from Siemens in Paderborn a few years back. I'm not sure if he got any manuals or microcode floppies with it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 20 15:14:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Scientist article on retro computing In-Reply-To: <42B5C8D0.nailH8G113ZYR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: > A few years ago, esp. when Simson Garfinkel was a regular writer > (and editor?), I really enjoyed MIT Technology Review. The past > couple of months it has taken a major turn towards venture-capital > and defense contractors. I noticed that as well. Fortnuately we now have Make as a counter-acting balancer ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 20 15:17:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Oh, and I don't know if you saw my mail on info-pdp11, but Magica (the > 11/70) is occasionally online, but we've also moved all data to a > simulated PDP-11 which is online 24/7, including all accounts. That > machine in Mim.Update.UU.SE. Just send me a mail if you want in and have > forgotten your password. This raises an interesting question: if you replaced a real PDP-11 that people connected to online with an emulated one, would they be able to know the difference? An interesting experiment to someday foist upon some unsuspecting geeks. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 20 15:19:57 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on In-Reply-To: <42B5DD90.1080709@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > And another tip when using the TU58 simulator is to NOT run it under > > Windows 9x, which handles DOS serial port access VERY POORLY. Run it in > > pure DOS. Better yet, run the Linux version. > > > > Here's a jumping off point to the TU58 simulator: > > > > http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/tu58-emu.htm > > Sellam, which of the Linux emulators are you using, and with what > Linux kernel version? Sorry, I'm a hypocrite. I use the DOS version for now until I finally get the time to get my Linux conversion box up and running. But I imagine the Linux version will work on any standard Linux install with properly configured serial ports. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 20 15:25:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? In-Reply-To: <200506192105.j5JL5EQg018039@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Brad Parker wrote: > On a whim (hey, it's father's day :-) I decided to try and boot my > dormant 11/44 from the TU58 using the tu58 simulator. > > Has anyone done this? I booted my 11/23+ from the simulated TU58 before. Slow, but it works. > I'm being totally lazy and didn't look at the M7090 schematics (yet) and > assumed the TU58 20pin header is the same as the console 20pin header. > I also assumed it's RS-232 and not TTL. Further, I assumed it was > running at 38400 baud. You assumed wrong, mostly. Try 9600 or 19200. I was able to configure the TU58 simulator to work at 19.2Kbps with my particular setup, which was very helpful for transferring a lot of data (80 disks worth). > I know my serial port and tu58 simulator are working since they boot my > 11/730 just fine. It's the baud rate then. Also, make sure you have the serial connections correct. I just used two wires: one for TX and one for RX. No other control signals are required, and it works just fine. I used shielded wire. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 20 15:38:22 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) Message-ID: <20050620203822.8D8DD70CA1DB@bitsavers.org> This raises an interesting question: if you replaced a real PDP-11 that people connected to online with an emulated one, would they be able to know the difference? -- If you were using SIMH you would, since it doesn't perform cycle accurate simulation. Unless you ran it on fairly slow modern hardware it would be faster than the original. This wouldn't be the case for MESS, though, since it is based on the cycle-accurate MAME processor cores. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 20 15:38:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Zax ICD-378 Z80 Debugger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find documentation and/or software for a Zax > ICD-378 Z80 in-circuit debugger? > > Picked one up (for $15.00!) at the MIT Flea Market today. > > Any leads appreciated! Hi Steven. I have it! Contact me off-list and we'll make arrangements. We can also hopefully finish up discussions on that trade we've been talking about ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 20 15:41:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DSD-440 and/or drive recommendation for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050619212404.00a35d00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Joe R. wrote: > I'm looking for a drive for my PDP-8 but I don't want something the > weight and size of a RK-05. I also have several DSD-440 drives available to > me. Does anyone know if these can be used on the PDP-8 or have any > experience with them? Does anyone know what kind of controller they need > when used in the 8? Or does anyone have a suggestion about what other > drive can be used with the -8? I realize that the DSD-440 or other drive > may not be original for the -8 but I just don't want to deal with something > the size, weight and unreliability of a RK-05. The DSD-440 manual mentions a controller for the PDP-8, so it can definitely be used with one, if you find the controller ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 20 15:47:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <42B63ED2.4040708@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I have archived RT-11 distributions on a CD and wonder > how long it might be before newer OSs are no longer able > to read/burn the CD. At that point, it will be necessary > to use a different media so that future hobby users are > able to continue to access the files. I realize that > stating when the CD will no longer be readable is almost > a pure guess, but I was wondering is anyone is willing > to suggest if it will be less than 3 decades or more > than 10 decades? Far less than 3 decades. The safest bet is to assume it will not be readable in 5 years or less. Tape was supplanted by floppies which were supplanted by CD which is being supplanted by DVD. Once the supplantant of DVDs arrives on the scene, quickly move all your data (ideally kept on a live server, relying on the external storage media as last-resort backups only) onto the new medium. Keep doing this in perpetuity. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jun 20 16:23:02 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:23:02 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B733B6.nail97E1B4QHN@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > CD which is being supplatnted by DVD. 650MB CD-R's were supposedly supplanted by 700 MB CD-R's. But I do not yet trust DVD's, and in my heart I have a distrust of the 700 MB CD-R's. Of course, I've never been know for being on the bleeding edge :-). Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jun 20 16:26:11 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:26:11 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <20050620203822.8D8DD70CA1DB@bitsavers.org> References: <20050620203822.8D8DD70CA1DB@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42B73473.nail99I1MBE40@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > cycle-accurate MAME processor cores. For a Unibus PDP-11, what is "cycle-accurate"? Memory access waits until the memory says it's done. I suppose you could come up with some numbers not too far off for some memory implementation and build around that. (don't forget modify as well as read and write timings!) Tim. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 20 17:00:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <42B69250.nailUS11FT43@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Anyway, back to Gold CD-R's, they aren't real cheap, typically > about $1 per CD-R. Worth their weight in the gold they contain if they'll in fact preserve your data for the estimated 90-100 years. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 20 16:55:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:55:04 -0400 Subject: DSD-440 software In-Reply-To: <42B710E6.4050506@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050620175504.009b8100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi Doc, I picked up at least two DSD manuals in my big haul last week. I think they both have disks in them. I can send you the disk (and a mamual if you need it) if you'll promise to return them. FWIW Thom has a NIB DSD drive. I think I'm going to pick it up and try to use it on my PDP-8. I've been reading the description of the DSD drives in the manual and they sound GREAT! They will do IBM 3740 format, DEC RL-01/02 format and some kind of a DD format. They also have stand alone diagnostics built into the controller so you can test them with no computer attached (and no special computer SW!) Joe At 01:54 PM 6/20/05 -0500, you wrote: > I just got my DSD-440 cleaned up, checked out, and attached to a >machine this weekend, and it seems to be working fine. (Thanks, Joe!) > > What I don't have is the diagnostic disk that shipped with it. >According to the DSD-440 user guide, the disk came with FRD440 as both a >standalone utility and as an RT-11 program, FRD440.SAV. > > I'd like to have the bootable disk, if anybody has one they can copy, >but I'd be very happy with just the RT-11 program. > > Thanks! > > > Doc > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 20 16:58:09 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:58:09 -0400 Subject: DSD-440 and/or drive recommendation for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050619212404.00a35d00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050620175809.00a32210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:41 PM 6/20/05 -0700, Sellam wrote: >On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >> I'm looking for a drive for my PDP-8 but I don't want something the >> weight and size of a RK-05. I also have several DSD-440 drives available to >> me. Does anyone know if these can be used on the PDP-8 or have any >> experience with them? Does anyone know what kind of controller they need >> when used in the 8? Or does anyone have a suggestion about what other >> drive can be used with the -8? I realize that the DSD-440 or other drive >> may not be original for the -8 but I just don't want to deal with something >> the size, weight and unreliability of a RK-05. > >The DSD-440 manual mentions a controller for the PDP-8, so it can >definitely be used with one, if you find the controller ;) My DSD manuals only talk about interface cards for the PDP-11 and LSI-11. If your's has any specific PDP-8 information then I'd like to get a copy of those parts. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 20 16:59:37 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:59:37 -0400 Subject: DECD Unibus Music board? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050620175937.00a3c470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found one of these today. Can anyone tell me anything about it? Joe From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 20 17:32:55 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:32:55 -0400 Subject: DECD Unibus Music board? Message-ID: <0IIE005JQMMW2E81@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: DECD Unibus Music board? > From: "Joe R." > Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:59:37 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > I found one of these today. Can anyone tell me anything about it? > > Joe Interesting. I have a Qbus sound board, AKA gigilo. Wonder if they are similar. Mine has two GI sound chips. Allison From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jun 20 17:35:18 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:35:18 -0500 Subject: DSD-440 software In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050620175504.009b8100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050620175504.009b8100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42B744A6.1090109@mdrconsult.com> Joe R. wrote: > Hi Doc, > > I picked up at least two DSD manuals in my big haul last week. I think > they both have disks in them. I can send you the disk (and a mamual if you > need it) if you'll promise to return them. FWIW Thom has a NIB DSD drive. > I think I'm going to pick it up and try to use it on my PDP-8. I've been > reading the description of the DSD drives in the manual and they sound > GREAT! They will do IBM 3740 format, DEC RL-01/02 format and some kind of a > DD format. They also have stand alone diagnostics built into the controller > so you can test them with no computer attached (and no special computer SW!) The loan of a disk would be perfect. I have a printed "preliminary" User Guide, and the later UG and Service Guide are both on Bitsavers. It is a really slick system. The built-in diags and format utilities are very nice, but for mass formats something that runs in the OS would suit me better. You have to power cycle the disk drawer for each floppy you format, which is probably OK but it gives me the heebie-jeebies. :) Since I have several hundred bulk-erased RX02 diskettes, that's a lot of heebie-jeebies. Another thing that caught me short is that the DSD-440 honors the write-protect notch. The RX02 doesn't (or my RX02s have been modified), so it was a little surprising when I got a write-protect error on a scratch disk I've been using on my 11/84. Hit me off-list at this address and I'll send you my shipping address and stuff. Thanks! Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jun 20 17:40:31 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:40:31 -0500 Subject: DSD-440 and/or drive recommendation for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050620175809.00a32210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050619212404.00a35d00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050620175809.00a32210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42B745DF.8080605@mdrconsult.com> Joe R. wrote: > At 01:41 PM 6/20/05 -0700, Sellam wrote: >>The DSD-440 manual mentions a controller for the PDP-8, so it can >>definitely be used with one, if you find the controller ;) > > > My DSD manuals only talk about interface cards for the PDP-11 and > LSI-11. If your's has any specific PDP-8 information then I'd like to get a > copy of those parts. Check out the manuals on Bitsaver. Description and part number of the PDP-8 Omnibus board with setup and software info, although I don't think there's enough there to reverse engineer it. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 20 17:42:15 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:42:15 -0400 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050620184215.00794890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I picked up more DEC parts from Thom today including several M8350 cards. All I can find out about them is that they're "KA8E posibus interface". Can anyone provide more details? BTW does anyone have any suggestions about cards that I should be looking for? Joe From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 20 17:40:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Still Available for free In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, chris wrote: > I still have a Tandy 1000 with monitor and printer, several IBM XTs and > IBM ATs, some Corona luggables, and some Compaq luggables. To help move them along, the Tandy 1000 is an interesting machine. I'm not sure about the straight 1000 model, but variants of the 1000 have DOS and even DeskMate (Tandy's windowing environment, which I believe was a tailored version of early MS windows) in ROM. Original IBM PC XT and AT machines are getting difficult to find (especially ATs, which it seems weren't produced in the same numbers as earlier models) and the Corona's are significant because IBM successfully sued them for copyright infringement for basically copying the ROM code verbatim and using it in their clones. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jun 20 17:52:59 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:52:59 -0500 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050620184215.00794890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050620184215.00794890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42B748CB.2080701@mdrconsult.com> Joe R. wrote: > I picked up more DEC parts from Thom today including several M8350 > cards. All I can find out about them is that they're "KA8E posibus > interface". Can anyone provide more details? > > BTW does anyone have any suggestions about cards that I should be > looking for? Well, I could use an M9312 terminator with boot ROMs.... Doc From James at jdfogg.com Mon Jun 20 17:56:39 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:56:39 -0400 Subject: Still Available for free Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045B4D@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > I still have a Tandy 1000 with monitor and printer, several IBM XTs > > and IBM ATs, some Corona luggables, and some Compaq luggables. > > To help move them along, the Tandy 1000 is an interesting > machine. I'm not sure about the straight 1000 model, but > variants of the 1000 have DOS and even DeskMate (Tandy's > windowing environment, which I believe was a tailored version > of early MS windows) in ROM. Original IBM PC XT and AT > machines are getting difficult to find (especially ATs, which > it seems weren't produced in the same numbers as earlier > models) and the Corona's are significant because IBM > successfully sued them for copyright infringement for > basically copying the ROM code verbatim and using it in their clones. Where are these? I'm in the market for a PC, PC/XT or PC/AT. Also looking for a Compaq Portable III. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 20 17:52:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DSD-440 and/or drive recommendation for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050620175809.00a32210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >The DSD-440 manual mentions a controller for the PDP-8, so it can > >definitely be used with one, if you find the controller ;) > > My DSD manuals only talk about interface cards for the PDP-11 and > LSI-11. If your's has any specific PDP-8 information then I'd like to get a > copy of those parts. You should be able to find it on Bitsavers. I'm pretty sure that's where I was reading them (though I have copies somewhere in my own archive). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Jun 20 17:59:13 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:59:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: <200506202242.j5KMgH0x027121@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506202242.j5KMgH0x027121@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Johnny" == Johnny Billquist writes: > > Johnny> Almost. Non I/D: 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20, 11/21, > Johnny> 11/23, 11/24, 11/34, 11/35, 11/40, 11/60. > > Johnny> Split I/D: 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, > Johnny> 11/74, 11/83, 11/84, 11/93, 11/94. > > Johnny> Did I forget any? :-) > > T-11 :-) Well, that's a specific CPU, and not a PDP-11 system. If I were to do it by CPUs instead, it would be KA-11, KB-11A, KB-11B, KB-11C, KB-11D, KB-11E, T-11, F-11, J-11, and probably a few more that my brain fail to feed me right now. > Most of the ones you listed have no MMU at all, so "not applicable" > would be more accurate for those. Most and most... The ones without MMU is the 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20 and 11/21. I realized I forgot the 11/04 by the way. Also without MMU and without split I/D. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 20 17:59:16 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:59:16 -0700 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface Message-ID: <42B74A44.9030008@bitsavers.org> > Can anyone provide more details? M8350 is the interface from the Omnibus to the positive (TTL) I/O interface first used in the PDP8/I. It is used to interface to the rack of modules style interfaces. There is a related Data Break (ie. DMA) interface card M8360 As I suggested before, you want to watch for the 8/A RL interface card The RX8E floppy card intf part number is M8357 http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/hard8e/modules.html for a list of modules. Again, watch for cables. Omnibus cables are useful, as are the over-the top board connector blocks. Omnibus cables LOOK like Unibus cables (but they aren't...) Easiest way to tell is Unibus cables have a section of the paddle edge connector fingers connected together with a big PCB trace From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 20 17:57:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DSD-440 software In-Reply-To: <42B744A6.1090109@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > It is a really slick system. The built-in diags and format utilities > are very nice, but for mass formats something that runs in the OS would > suit me better. You have to power cycle the disk drawer for each floppy > you format, which is probably OK but it gives me the heebie-jeebies. :) The RXV21 clone controller I have in my primary 11/23+ system (an MXV21 made by MDA) allows simple formatting by poking a couple values into the right registers. It works great. A few minutes of coding would result in a SAV program that does it for you with prompts. Speaking of which: off-hand, how would one create a binary program under RT11 and then save it? > Another thing that caught me short is that the DSD-440 honors the > write-protect notch. The RX02 doesn't (or my RX02s have been modified), > so it was a little surprising when I got a write-protect error on a > scratch disk I've been using on my 11/84. Your RX02s are broken! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Jun 20 18:02:09 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:02:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: <200506202242.j5KMgH0x027121@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506202242.j5KMgH0x027121@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 "Fred N. van Kempen" wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > Almost. > > Non I/D: 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20, 11/21, 11/23, 11/24, 11/34, > > 11/35, 11/40, 11/60. > /05 is /10, /21 doesnt exist (== Falcon SBC), /35 is /40. > /15 I believe was a special-case /20 ? The 11/05 - 11/10, 11/15 - 11/20 and 11/35 - 11/40 all have about the same relationships. The first was the OEM version, while the other was for end customers. Same CPUs, sometimes different standard options installed. The Falcon actually is called the 11/21 in some documentation. > > Split I/D: 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, 11/74, 11/83, > > 11/84, 11/93, 11/94. > > > > Did I forget any? :-) > M70, M100, M110 :P Those don't count. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jun 20 18:02:38 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:02:38 -0500 Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: References: <200506201400.j5KE0DNl016799@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200506201802.38455.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 20 June 2005 12:12, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Non I/D: 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20, 11/21, 11/23, 11/24, > 11/34, 11/35, 11/40, 11/60. > > Split I/D: 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, 11/74, > 11/83, 11/84, 11/93, 11/94. > > Did I forget any? :-) Pro 325 & 350 - Non-split I&D (F11) Pro 380 - Split I&D (J11) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Jun 20 18:05:35 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:05:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: How to tell... Message-ID: Argh, deleted my mails before I remember to answer one. Sellam asked if anyone would be able to tell that Magica (a real PDP-11) have been replaced by MIM (an emulated PDP-11). The answer is yes, and no. The only telling thing is the speed. It is much faster than a real PDP-11/93, which it emulates. But apart from that, I can't see how you could tell. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jun 20 18:10:40 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:10:40 -0500 Subject: DSD-440 software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B74CF0.8040704@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > > >> It is a really slick system. The built-in diags and format utilities >>are very nice, but for mass formats something that runs in the OS would >>suit me better. You have to power cycle the disk drawer for each floppy >>you format, which is probably OK but it gives me the heebie-jeebies. :) > > > The RXV21 clone controller I have in my primary 11/23+ system (an MXV21 > made by MDA) allows simple formatting by poking a couple values into the > right registers. It works great. A few minutes of coding would result in > a SAV program that does it for you with prompts. Uhh, I have a couple of Qbus cards by MDA that I've never identified. Got pics? > Speaking of which: off-hand, how would one create a binary program under > RT11 and then save it? I'm a complete RT11 noob, so you're asking the wrong guy. >> Another thing that caught me short is that the DSD-440 honors the >>write-protect notch. The RX02 doesn't (or my RX02s have been modified), >>so it was a little surprising when I got a write-protect error on a >>scratch disk I've been using on my 11/84. > > > Your RX02s are broken! I suspected thay'd been "fixed", but I don't think it's a malfunction. All three sets came from the same company and all three write to disks with the notch open. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jun 20 18:13:40 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:13:40 -0500 Subject: Speaking of VTSERVER.... Message-ID: <42B74DA4.4070909@mdrconsult.com> What's the status of vtserver v3? And where might I find a copy? Doc From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 18:14:37 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:14:37 -0500 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050620184215.00794890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050620184215.00794890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 6/20/05, Joe R. wrote: > I picked up more DEC parts from Thom today including several M8350 > cards. All I can find out about them is that they're "KA8E posibus > interface". Can anyone provide more details? Those provide a 'Posibus' interface to OMNIBUS machines. Posibus is a peripheral bus found on all PDP-8/L and some PDP-8/i machines. There aren't too many Posibus peripherals (the DF-32D comes to mind), but if you had one on your -8/L, you could migrate it to your -8/e with the M8350. You would need a set of 3 Berg-40-to-DEC-backplane cables - BC08J? to connect the M8350 to the Posibus device. I wouldn't throw it away, but you probabably don't have any immediate need for it, unless you have some uncommon late-1960s peripherals. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 18:20:46 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:20:46 -0500 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050620184215.00794890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050620184215.00794890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 6/20/05, Joe R. wrote: > BTW does anyone have any suggestions about cards that I should be > looking for? Forgot to answer this - MSC-8 hex MOS memory cards are handy - if they are 1/2 populated with 4Kbit chips, they are 16KW, fully populated with 4Kbit chips they are 32KW. If you happen to find the same card with 16Kbit (4116) chips, that's a whopping 128KW. You'll need a KT8A to address it, another late model card of limited use - RTS/8 used it, and I am pretty sure there was a RAM disk driver for OS/8 to use the upper 96KW as storage. As Al said, the RL8A is handy, as are RX8Es. Beyond that, most quad OMNIBUS card sets are handy and useful, especially the RK8E. It kind of depends on what you want to do with a PDP-8, but memory and disk are among the more necessary options for a base machine, followed by printer and communications interfaces. -ethan From vrs at msn.com Mon Jun 20 18:30:46 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:30:46 -0700 Subject: DSD-440 software References: <3.0.6.32.20050620175504.009b8100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > I picked up at least two DSD manuals in my big haul last week. I think > they both have disks in them. I can send you the disk (and a mamual if you > need it) if you'll promise to return them. FWIW Thom has a NIB DSD drive. > I think I'm going to pick it up and try to use it on my PDP-8. I've been > reading the description of the DSD drives in the manual and they sound > GREAT! They will do IBM 3740 format, DEC RL-01/02 format and some kind of a > DD format. They also have stand alone diagnostics built into the controller > so you can test them with no computer attached (and no special computer SW!) They are mostly quite cool :-). I will relate a cautionary tale, though. While fiddling the DIP switches and power cycling, I discovered the hard way that the DIP switches don't work reliably any more (probably some corrosion in there). As a result, I didn't get the test that I wanted, and instead erased my OS/8 diskette (grumble). Since then, I formatted some blanks with the DSD drive, then switched over to the RX02 to read and write them. someday I will have to pull and replace the DIP switches on the DSD, I guess. Vince From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jun 20 18:36:42 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:36:42 -0400 Subject: DSD-440 software In-Reply-To: <42B74CF0.8040704@mdrconsult.com> References: <42B74CF0.8040704@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <42B7530A.nailB3F119GML@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Your RX02s are broken! Real RX02's have no concept of write-protect notches. DEC-supplied RX02 media generally had no notches in them. (In the mid-90's if you ordered them you likely got re-labeled 3M media which did have notches.) Tim. From vrs at msn.com Mon Jun 20 18:43:14 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:43:14 -0700 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface References: <3.0.6.32.20050620184215.00794890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > I picked up more DEC parts from Thom today including several M8350 > cards. All I can find out about them is that they're "KA8E posibus > interface". Can anyone provide more details? Those are useful :-). They interface Omnibus machines to the older, simpler Posibus, allowing you to hook up the older Posibus peripherals. (I also intend to generate a few new Posibus device controllers :-).) I don't think there's a need for more than one per machine, though. Consider them trade goods (or send the extras to me :-)). > BTW does anyone have any suggestions about cards that I should be > looking for? Practically anything Omnibus M8xx or M8xxx is useful. The possible exception would be the 8/E CPU itself, which are very common. Stuff that is always in short supply are peripheral controllers (and the peripherals), the 3-board quad-height core, and front panels (the programmer's panel, for instance). Vince From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jun 20 18:45:01 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:45:01 -0400 Subject: DSD-440 software In-Reply-To: <001f01c575f0$15f05540$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050620175504.009b8100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <001f01c575f0$15f05540$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <42B754FD.nailB9Q1MU0C7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > the DIP switches don't work reliably any more This is a problem with lots of 20+ year old DIP switches. They were barely reliable when they were new. I generally replaced with newer, high-quality (not 49cents!) DIP switches. Tim. From vrs at msn.com Mon Jun 20 18:46:49 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:46:49 -0700 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface References: <3.0.6.32.20050620184215.00794890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > Forgot to answer this - MSC-8 hex MOS memory cards are handy - if they > are 1/2 populated with 4Kbit chips, they are 16KW, fully populated > with 4Kbit chips they are 32KW. If you happen to find the same card > with 16Kbit (4116) chips, that's a whopping 128KW. You'll need a KT8A > to address it, another late model card of limited use - RTS/8 used it, > and I am pretty sure there was a RAM disk driver for OS/8 to use the > upper 96KW as storage. Those have been selling on eBay recently. > As Al said, the RL8A is handy, as are RX8Es. Beyond that, most quad > OMNIBUS card sets are handy and useful, especially the RK8E. In addition, I'd list the RX8E, since the drives are so common, and are relatively trouble free. Vince From vrs at msn.com Mon Jun 20 18:56:28 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:56:28 -0700 Subject: DSD-440 software References: <3.0.6.32.20050620175504.009b8100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><001f01c575f0$15f05540$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <42B754FD.nailB9Q1MU0C7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > > the DIP switches don't work reliably any more > > This is a problem with lots of 20+ year old DIP switches. They were > barely reliable when they were new. > > I generally replaced with newer, high-quality (not 49cents!) DIP switches. I was also disappointed that "normal operation" and "erase my disk" were nearby in DIP-switch space, so that a single failed contact could do in my disk. Vince From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 20 19:06:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DSD-440 software In-Reply-To: <42B74CF0.8040704@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > > The RXV21 clone controller I have in my primary 11/23+ system (an MXV21 > > made by MDA) allows simple formatting by poking a couple values into the > > right registers. It works great. A few minutes of coding would result in > > a SAV program that does it for you with prompts. > > Uhh, I have a couple of Qbus cards by MDA that I've never identified. > Got pics? No, but just plug their model numbers into the handy dandy Qbus and Unibus Module Field Guide and you'll find out what they are: http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt > >> Another thing that caught me short is that the DSD-440 honors the > >>write-protect notch. The RX02 doesn't (or my RX02s have been modified), > >>so it was a little surprising when I got a write-protect error on a > >>scratch disk I've been using on my 11/84. > > > > > > Your RX02s are broken! > > I suspected thay'd been "fixed", but I don't think it's a > malfunction. All three sets came from the same company and all three > write to disks with the notch open. Weird. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 20 19:08:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DSD-440 software In-Reply-To: <42B7530A.nailB3F119GML@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Your RX02s are broken! > > Real RX02's have no concept of write-protect notches. DEC-supplied > RX02 media generally had no notches in them. (In the mid-90's > if you ordered them you likely got re-labeled 3M media which did > have notches.) This I did not know. Now I do. I guess this will come in useful if I ever use my RX02s. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 20 17:21:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:21:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: from "Gary Sparkes" at Jun 19, 5 07:50:36 pm Message-ID: > > Or the space. The dexktop area needed by a laptop and printer is not that > > much smaller than that needed by a desktop PC + not-too-large monitor + > > printer. > > > > Understandably worried about failure, I can see where this might > Be limiting, but you wouldn't need to print if you could view > Onscreen, no? Though I understand how some people prefer > Paper to screen, sometimes it works better and is > More economical then printing out. I _muuch_ prefer to read documents on paper than on-screen [1]. I can't easily read from a screen in bed, for example (OK, I am the only person who regards service manuals as light bedtime reading, but I do...). And ehile I may have a reasonable memory for schematics, I certainly don't think I can remember them well enough not to have to refer to them when I'm working. Therefore, I'd either need a machine that could sit on top of a partly-dismantled minicomputer, survive molten solder and the odd tool being dropped on it at my workbench, etc, or I'd need a way of printing out at least selected pages. If I could view on-screen I'd probably not need to print the entire manual, but even just wanting to print the schematics or the waveforms, or whatever would need a printer. It's also a lot quicker for me to flip through a paper manual and recognise if a page is a schematic, listing, hex dump, exploded view, general text, etc than to display the pages from a pdf file on any PC I've eve rused. [1] THe often-cited advantage of electronic docuemnts -- that you can search them -- doesn't apply to containers of scanned images. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 20 17:25:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:25:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: DSD-440 and/or drive recommendation for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050619212404.00a35d00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 19, 5 09:24:04 pm Message-ID: > may not be original for the -8 but I just don't want to deal with something > the size, weight and unreliability of a RK-05. SIze and weight I can understand, but I've found the RK05 to be the most reliable of the demountable hard disks, and pretty reliable by any standards (I've had many more problems with floppies, for example). The RK05 is also a fairly easy thing to repair, decent docs exist, and _I_ have the alignment disks and spare herds (not a lot of help to you, I guess). Personally, the device I'd go for on a PDP8 (Omnibus) would be an RX01 or RX02 on an RX8E controller. I am told those are hard to find, though (I do have _one_, it's in use...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 20 17:14:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:14:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: <20050619042439.21967.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jun 18, 5 09:24:39 pm Message-ID: > > I would imagine this question has been asked hundreds > of times, but what to do about it? Im guessing soaking > it in bleachy water (50/50?). What say you? It depends on what's casued it. If it's dirt/smoke residue/whatever on the surface, then I would start with one of the anti-static foam cleaners (both Electrolube and Servisol do good ones). If that doesn't help, I'd try propan-2-ol (I haev found some marks that will come off with that and not with the foam cleaner). I've never found either of thos products to have an adverse effect on casings, keytops, etc. You do want to take care if there are stuck-on labels (particularly paper ones) that you want to preserve. More often, though, particularly with DEC hardware, the yellowing is due to a chemical change of the plastic. VT100s are well known for this. AFAIK it can't be reversed. Maybe sanding off the surface would do something, but it would also ruin any texturing of the surface too (and therefore it's a bad idea!). Painting over it might help, it might also make it look a lot worse. I'd just live with it, I think. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 20 18:25:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:25:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <000001c57585$90276c10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jun 20, 5 11:48:13 am Message-ID: > Has anyone built a floppy drive from scratch? Without salvaging > any mechanical parts or heads from an existing floppy? I'm > assuming that electronic processing is not a problem (in > principle) for either floppy disks or CDROMs/DVDROMs. Another possibiliy is to assume that some (non-working) drives are still around, how hard would it be to get them working again. For both the CD-ROM and the floppy, I think all parts other than the head/laser pickup could be made in a good home workshop (Note, I am not claiming _I_ could do it, at least not yet). Now the winding on a floppy drive head could corrode and go open-circuit (this is a problem on some types of recording head, I am told it was due to acid from the fingers of the people who handled the wire when they were being wound). But I would think the semiconductor laser and photodiodes in a CD pickup was much more likely to fail with time. GIven the head, I think the electronics would be doable. The floppy drive would probably be easier, if only because all floppy heads used much the same read chain, so if you could find data on any floppy drive you could probably make something that would work. And if you get it wrong, you are not likely to damage the head. Whereas the CD pickup is a more complicated device to drive, if you get the laser current wrong it'll either not work (current too low) or not work ever again (current too high). And every manufacturer did his own thing, so you are not likely to be able to find a published circuit that will work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 20 18:29:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:29:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050620074701.055e5e10@mail> from "John Foust" at Jun 20, 5 07:50:29 am Message-ID: > > At 04:29 PM 6/19/2005, Tony Duell wrote: > >The exrta costs, over the cost of the PC, are things like the broadband > >connection (I am not going to try to download a 10Mbyte file with a 14k4 > >modem...), the equipment to maintain and repair the PC (things like a BGA > >rework station, a faster 'scope and logic analyser than the ones I > >already have, etc), and, of course, a house extension to put said PC in. > > There's no need to repair the hardware of a PC. If you're as There is for me. Period. I am not using things I don't understand and can't repair. > frugal as you indicate, and can leave the house to rub shoulders > with other computer users, you will find an unending stream of > cast-off free-or-nearly-so PCs from three PC generations I've never found such people. The only remotely PC-biased hacker I know actively collectes 486s and later to run linux on. So he's not going to be a source od machines. > (four-five years) ago. As for the price of digital information: > it's about time, it's about space. I don't undersntand that comment. > > If you want to continue the frugal theme, doesn't your public > library offer free high-speed Internet access? I don't think it's free, and they have restrictions on what you can look at. Specifically, no copyrighted stuff without the permission of the copyright owner. So technically bitsavers is out, and the librarians are the sort of people to notice this and complain. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 20 18:33:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:33:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Are you a specialist or a generalist? In-Reply-To: <018b01c57597$053e2f00$0427083d@river> from "river" at Jun 20, 5 10:53:12 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > Just wondering if you regard your classic computing skills as = > specialised or generalised? > > Do you have lots of various old systems with different processors and = > architectures, or do you specialise in a particular processor, = > architecture or system? Hmmm.. Generalist in the sense I've worked on most things, I will happily attempt to repair anything. Specialist in the sense that I am a hardware hacker, I don't do much on the software side (it doesn't even have to be computer hardware, or even electronic hardware...) Of course there are computers that I prefer to others. Coming from the hardware side, the simpler the components, the better. Large LSI chips are a pain :-). So I go for machines with CPUs built from TTL, small PROMs and PALs ()PDP8/e. Unibus PDP11s, Philips P850 series, PERQs, HP98x0 calculators, etc). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 20 18:40:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:40:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <17078.53678.3303.595949@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Jun 20, 5 10:24:46 am Message-ID: > Then again, there are even darker spots. Some time ago I went looking > for documentation about some Philips computer and found absolutely For the record, I have some manuals for some P850 series machines. From memory : P850 (TTL-based CPU): User manual (which includes the instruction set, bootstrap listing, etc), CPU technical manaul (schematics of the CPU and PSU bits, nothing on memory or I/O) P851 (Philips custom bitslice) : User manual (also with instruction set, etc), 2 volume techncial manual (schematics of the CPU, PSU, memory, some I/O), Floppy disk system technical manual (with the CDC floppy drive manual as well), etc P854 (AM2900 bit slice) : CPU technical manual (preliminarly edition, alas withot the microcode source), PSU manual (a very good manual for an SMPSU, with schematics, waveforms, etc). Some other stuff. I think I have a mnaul for a 4-port serial card that includes schemaatics, ROM source, etc. > nothing -- not just for the model I wanted, but nothing for any model > at all. About the only thing I could find was a picture of a cover > page of some manual (in the Google cache, though the website itself no > longer had it). > > Given that a fair number of CC contributors are European, this is > slightly surprising. Not that Philips ever was a particularly Well, I may have a few manuals, but I have no way to scan them... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 20 18:49:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:49:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: <17078.64244.701786.32953@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Jun 20, 5 01:20:52 pm Message-ID: > > >>>>> "Johnny" == Johnny Billquist writes: > > Johnny> Almost. Non I/D: 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20, 11/21, > Johnny> 11/23, 11/24, 11/34, 11/35, 11/40, 11/60. > > Johnny> Split I/D: 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, > Johnny> 11/74, 11/83, 11/84, 11/93, 11/94. > > Johnny> Did I forget any? :-) > > T-11 :-) Isn't that covered by the /21 (strictly the SBC21 -- the 'Falcon')? I suppose you could include the Pro 325 and 350 (no I/D, F11 chip) and the Pro 380 (split I/D, J11 chip). But those will not run normal PDP11 software, the I/O is totally different I believe. From cb at mythtech.net Mon Jun 20 19:19:18 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:19:18 -0400 Subject: Still Available for free Message-ID: >Where are these? I'm in the market for a PC, PC/XT or PC/AT. Also >looking for a Compaq Portable III. Northern NJ (Ridgewood, 07450). I don't have a Compaq Portable III. I have what I believe is the ORIGINAL Compaq. Their luggable suitcase sized thing with dual floppies, and 5 in screen in a nice luggable case. I'd suspect I can probably sell it on ebay, but at this point, I've been thinking of doing that for a very long time, haven't gotten around to it, and now just want to get rid of them. There is at least one, maybe two (I think it is two Corona's, one complete, one missing the keyboard case/top cover, and one complete compaq). -chris From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Jun 20 19:28:24 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:28:24 -0400 Subject: LF: Siemens FDD 100-8 (8" FDD) door latch button Message-ID: <20050621002823.ZHHH16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Anyone got a dead Siemens FDD 100-8 ? I need the door latch button. This is the little square buttom which has the LED in it, and a catch to hold the drive door down when it is closed. I'm resurrecting a system with this drive, but the catch is broken off - it works fine if you hold the door closed. Anyone got a dead drive that I can scarf a button from? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 20 19:06:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:06:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: from "Johnny Billquist" at Jun 21, 5 01:02:09 am Message-ID: > > The Falcon actually is called the 11/21 in some documentation. SOmewhare I have a manual that shows an 11/09 and 11/39. The text contains large spaces where these numbers have been removed :-)... In case you're wondering, they have the same relation to the 11/04 and 11/34 as the 11/10 does to the 11/05, etc. In other words pre-packaged machines as opposed to CPU only. AFAIK no machine with an 11/09 or 11/39 nameplate was ever shipped, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 20 19:12:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:12:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: DSD-440 software In-Reply-To: <42B74CF0.8040704@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Jun 20, 5 06:10:40 pm Message-ID: > > Your RX02s are broken! > > I suspected thay'd been "fixed", but I don't think it's a > malfunction. All three sets came from the same company and all three > write to disks with the notch open. No, I think they're working fine. I've just read the RX02 printset, and there's mo mention of a write-protect sensor. My guess is that these drives ignore the notch. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 20 19:14:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:14:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: DSD-440 software In-Reply-To: <42B74CF0.8040704@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Jun 20, 5 06:10:40 pm Message-ID: > > The RXV21 clone controller I have in my primary 11/23+ system (an MXV21 > > made by MDA) allows simple formatting by poking a couple values into the > > right registers. It works great. A few minutes of coding would result in > > a SAV program that does it for you with prompts. > > Uhh, I have a couple of Qbus cards by MDA that I've never identified. > Got pics? Msot of these RX02-compatible controllers had a single 50 pin header (normal SA800 drive bus), and 3 40 pin chips (2 off 2901, 1 off 2910) on them (with other parts too, of course). -tony From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Jun 20 19:52:16 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:52:16 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <000001c57585$90276c10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <000001c57585$90276c10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <42B764C0.6010304@compsys.to> >Antonio Carlini wrote: >>I would appreciate a recommendation! How long should >>a CD be replied upon? >> >You cannot rely on a CD (not even a pressed CD) for >anything important. You need at least two CDs, preferably >more. By the time you realise you were unlucky enough >to hit the bad one in the batch, it is too late. > >I've had a few CD-Rs die and two DVD-Rs die. For stuff I >care about, I burn to CD-R twice. I expect to take the >whole lot and reburn to something else eventually. I >keep waiting for the C3D or similar technology to surface >(say 100GB per disc) but I'm still waiting. Given the >drop in ?/GB of had drives lately, I may well put everything >onto a spare drive in the meantime. > >>If the image file for the CD >>is retained, how long before it will not be possible >>to burn a new CD and use it on what will then be a >>current operating system? >> >The ISO ormat is well documented. If you ignore various >copy-protections schemes, the for straight-forward normal >CDs, I would be surprised if you cannot access one 100 >years from now. You almost certainly won't be able to burn >a new CD-R (since noone wil be making the media) but you >will be able to access an ISO file. If you use something >like Nero with its (I assume ...) undocumented .NRG format, >you'll have to spin up an emulator and a copy of WXP with >Nero. Convert to ISO before then and you should be OK. > >I'd be surprised if noone has a working DVD drive 50 >years from now. Even the next generation stuff (HD-DVD) >sounds like it will be able to read CDs. > >>stating when the CD will no longer be readable is almost >>a pure guess, but I was wondering is anyone is willing >>to suggest if it will be less than 3 decades or more >>than 10 decades? >> >Surely reading ISO9660 image files will be possible essentially >forever, unless we lose the standard (or the ability to program)! >Being able to read the media may prove difficult beyond 100 years >or so. As long as the current equivalent to CDROM remains based on >rotating media that is read optically, modifying such a drive to >read a CDROM will remain feasible. Once we move to something as >different to CDROM as those are to floppy disk drives, then we >will get to find out how hard it is to build a drive from scratch! > >Has anyone built a floppy drive from scratch? Without salvaging >any mechanical parts or heads from an existing floppy? I'm >assuming that electronic processing is not a problem (in >principle) for either floppy disks or CDROMs/DVDROMs. > Jerome Fine replies: I think I have been asking the wrong question. I suspect that the best way to handle the problem is by keeping the ISO image file of the CD on a current media (presently a hard disk drive of some kind) and using software to pretend it is the actual CD - normally called emulation, but not a problem if it is called something else. I suspect that this is likely to be the most straightforward solution in the long run - many decades. Almost everyone seems to expect that neither a CD-R nor a DVD-R (i.e. the backup media we make for ourselves in single digit numbers) will last less than 20 years and probably less than 10 years. I can't think of any media that might be more reliable. Consequently, since it seems certain that repeated backups of the original CD image will be needed, why not just use the original CD image file in the first place. At present, I am using Windows 98 SE (I realize that this is badly off topic, but I can't successfully use anything else with E11 to run my RT-11 programs). Does anyone have any success with a CD emulation program that will allow me to use a CD image file (an exact duplicate of the ISO image file of the CD which was used to burn the CD in the first place)? Are there both free and commercial versions? What are the advantages and the disadvantages? I might as well ask for everything that I might want! Does anyone have any experience using a CD emulation program under Windows 98 SE using E11 running any of the PDP-11 OSs, maybe even RT-11 in particular? If such an application program is available, this would allow me to become independent of the actual hardware other than to use my DVD-R burner to make backups as often as seems needed, but then direct E11 to use the CD image file on the hard drive instead of an actual CD in a CDROM drive. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 20 20:19:51 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:19:51 -0400 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface Message-ID: <0IIE0094CUD2D001@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface > From: "vrs" > Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:46:49 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >> Forgot to answer this - MSC-8 hex MOS memory cards are handy - if they >> are 1/2 populated with 4Kbit chips, they are 16KW, fully populated >> with 4Kbit chips they are 32KW. If you happen to find the same card >> with 16Kbit (4116) chips, that's a whopping 128KW. You'll need a KT8A >> to address it, another late model card of limited use - RTS/8 used it, >> and I am pretty sure there was a RAM disk driver for OS/8 to use the >> upper 96KW as storage. Is there a schematic {printset} around for MSC-8? As to boards other than memory and CPU a front pannel board either the 8E style or 8A is very handy too. Then serial IO cards are useful. I use my 8f with two serial cards, one for console and one to simulate a high speed PTR/PTP. Allison From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 20 20:59:43 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:59:43 -0700 Subject: Phillips Microcomputers Message-ID: <42B7748F.75B4AA5D@rain.org> I currently have three Phillips machines, two of one type and one of another (don't remember the model numbers), all with floppy disk drives. They were used in a classified environment and were being scrapped out when I got them. I don't remember if they came with any software, but I suspect not, and unfortunately they came with no documentation. The two machines are about 24" x 24" x 24" and the single one is kind of a desktop unit with the floppy and monitor built in. If anyone is interested, let me know and make a reasonable ... or unreasonable :) ... offer but realize *I* will not package and ship them. > > True. But other computer makers of even lower stature have shown up > > on the CC list, and in bitsavers. Apart from the big ones, it seems > > to be just a random process that determines which machines appear and > > which ones do not. For example, I can't think of any other reason why > > Varian would show up in Al's archive and Philips would not... > > I doubt there were ever more than 100 Phillips machines in the US at any > given time. Perhaps in Europe they were more popular, but here they were > effectively not even a tiny speck in the minicomputer industry. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org From tomj at wps.com Mon Jun 20 21:08:25 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my computers, status In-Reply-To: <59318.207.145.53.202.1119057726.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <20050617165352.F2336@localhost> <59318.207.145.53.202.1119057726.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050620190540.W722@localhost> On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Tom wrote: >> Just a quick note on why I've been silent on my DG Nova 4, LGP-21, >> etc all summer... > > Since you're not in the southern hemisphere, I'm not sure what you > mean. Summer doesn't start here in the northern hemisphere for > another few days yet. Summer is when it's warm, winter when it's cold and/or rains. Those are the only two recognizable seasons in Los Angeles. From allain at panix.com Mon Jun 20 21:07:13 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:07:13 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) References: <000001c57585$90276c10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <42B764C0.6010304@compsys.to> Message-ID: <006301c57605$f1933e40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Does anyone have any success with a CD emulation program > that will allow me to use a CD image file (an exact duplicate of > the ISO image file of the CD which was used to burn the CD > in the first place)? I have created images of DEC ODS-?3 CD's to overcome the SIMH/w98 foreign mounting problem, which I don't gather isn't your problem. I use Adaptec EasyCD for this. Commercial. Oddly this will still work if you write the image back onto a CD-R encapsulated in the native filesystem. SIMH/Linux isn't supposed to require doing this stupid thing. John A. From tomj at wps.com Mon Jun 20 21:13:04 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP11/23+ frustration In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050618183649.009bbb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050617232824.00a43370@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050617232824.00a43370@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050618183649.009bbb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050620191209.L722@localhost> On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Joe R. wrote: >> I disagree on the alignment requirement. It's needed only for pack >> interchangability. > > Or if you want to read any pack with existing data. Oh, agreed. > Personally if I only > had one pack and one drive I wouldn't waste my time with the drive. You DECcies may have that luxury, many others do not. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Jun 20 21:27:53 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:27:53 -0400 Subject: How to tell... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B77B29.8090901@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: >Sellam asked if anyone would be able to tell that Magica (a real PDP-11) >have been replaced by MIM (an emulated PDP-11). > >The answer is yes, and no. >The only telling thing is the speed. It is much faster than a real >PDP-11/93, which it emulates. But apart from that, I can't see how you >could tell. > Jerome Fine replies: It also depends on how much of E11 you decide to use. (a) It is possible to define and implement unused PDP-11 instruction codes that NO real PDP-11 ever uses! My first preference would be 32 / 64 Bit Integer Add / Subtract Instructions. (b) John Wilson has a DLL which allows a PDP-11 user to directly access the PC RAM: via a "register" in the I/O page. The file is EMEM.DLL (Emulated Memory). Eventually I intend to replace the uses of the "hardware MMU" in the software with the EMEM.DLL so that I don't waste the whole 8,192 bytes of the PAR devoted to the use of the MMU. It will also be much faster and can be as large as the user wants - as much memory (100s of MBytes from PC RAM:) as the PC has available for E11 to use. This would be for VIRTUAL A(100000000) in FORTRAN, something impossible with a real PDP-11. (c) The MTPS instruction could be modified to have a value that would specify E11 in addition to any other PDP-11. At present, only (b) is actually available - although this could be done in hardware for a real PDP-11 so it would not really say it is not a PDP-11/93. But (a) and (c) could also be done very easily. Does anyone else have any other requests that they consider important? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Jun 20 21:28:33 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:28:33 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <42B733B6.nail97E1B4QHN@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <42B733B6.nail97E1B4QHN@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <42B77B51.2000606@compsys.to> >Tim Shoppa wrote: >650MB CD-R's were supposedly supplanted by 700 MB CD-R's. But I >do not yet trust DVD's, and in my heart I have a distrust of the 700 MB >CD-R's. > Jerome Fine replies: I have used a DVD burner for about 3 years: (a) To burn a monthly backup file - 4 * 1 GByte per month or 3 DVDs per year. Since each monthly backup would have required 2 CDs, it was simply not practical. About once a year, I check the old DVD-Rs to make sure I can still read them. (b) For some reason I do NOT understand, when I MOUNT DU0: CDROMi:/RONLY under E11 using the DVD drive and a bootable CD with RT-11 software, E11 can read the first 64 blocks on the CD (16 CD sectors) and actually BOOT RT-11. Once you find a use for DVDs that makes life a lot easier, I suggest you will make them "trailing" edge technology as well Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jun 20 21:32:22 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:32:22 -0500 Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200506202132.23444.pat@computer-refuge.org> Tony Duell declared on Monday 20 June 2005 06:49 pm: > I suppose you could include the Pro 325 and 350 (no I/D, F11 chip) and > the Pro 380 (split I/D, J11 chip). But those will not run normal PDP11 > software, the I/O is totally different I believe. I've booted RT-11 on my Pro380, so it can't be that far off. It doesn't have a QBUS/UNIBUS though, so there's not a whole lot of peripherals that you can use with it. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 22:24:22 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:24:22 -0400 Subject: CP/M Software Archive Message-ID: Well, it seems I've now got hosting space for said archive! Now, I need software to put up! Don't exactly have a holding place at the moment, so any Method to get me a few pieces to put up to start us off Would be REALLY appreciated! From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 20 22:26:01 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:26:01 -0400 Subject: VTSERVER booting Message-ID: <0IIF0026107BT1H0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VTSERVER booting > From: Patrick Finnegan > Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:32:22 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Tony Duell declared on Monday 20 June 2005 06:49 pm: >> I suppose you could include the Pro 325 and 350 (no I/D, F11 chip) and >> the Pro 380 (split I/D, J11 chip). But those will not run normal PDP11 >> software, the I/O is totally different I believe. > >I've booted RT-11 on my Pro380, so it can't be that far off. It doesn't >have a QBUS/UNIBUS though, so there's not a whole lot of peripherals >that you can use with it. > >Pat Of the PDP-11 OSs RT-11 has the fewest requirements to run. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 22:29:17 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:29:17 -0500 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface In-Reply-To: <0IIE0094CUD2D001@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IIE0094CUD2D001@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 6/20/05, Allison wrote: > Is there a schematic {printset} around for MSC-8? I have never seen one (and I have plenty of printsets from back in the day). I'd love to see one to verify differences between the 4Kbit and 16Kbit-stuffed boards. I'd consider taking one of my 16K boards and turning it into 128K (easier desoldering than by unpopulating a 32K board) > As to boards other than memory and CPU a front pannel board either > the 8E style or 8A is very handy too. The frontpanels for PDP-8/e/f/m are pretty obvious when seen on a pile (and aren't seen on piles that often), but I agree that the programmer's panel for the -8/a is something to look out for - I have one ($50 a couple of years back), and would recommend them for anyone who wants to do more than just hit a boot switch and fire up OS/8. For the uninitiated, it plugs into the "standard" I/O board, the DKC8AA, via two 40-pin cables. Pretty much any OS/8-running or WPS-running -8/a I've ever seen, has a DKC8AA. It wasn't _required_, but it was ordinary. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jun 20 22:42:02 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:42:02 -0500 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050620184215.00794890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200506202242.02786.pat@computer-refuge.org> vrs declared on Monday 20 June 2005 06:43 pm: > > BTW does anyone have any suggestions about cards that I should be > > looking for? > > Practically anything Omnibus M8xx or M8xxx is useful. The possible > exception would be the 8/E CPU itself, which are very common. You must mean relative to other PDP-8 stuff, because I've never seen ANY pdp-8 boards laying around anywhere, and they would probably fetch a decent price on eBay.. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 23:00:56 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:00:56 -0500 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface In-Reply-To: <200506202242.02786.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20050620184215.00794890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200506202242.02786.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 6/20/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > You must mean relative to other PDP-8 stuff, because I've never seen ANY > pdp-8 boards laying around anywhere, and they would probably fetch a > decent price on eBay.. I've seen lots of DEC boards lying around at resellers' places... Even 10 years ago, there were plenty more PDP-11/VAX customers than PDP-8 customers, that resellers focused on Unibus/Qbus stuff and had to be pestered a little to look for specific OMNIBUS boards. As for eBay prices, I've won plenty of auctions in the past year for $10 PDP-8 parts (KK8E boards, 3rd party core memory, OMNIBUS peripherals). I don't pay "any" price for this stuff... if it gets too expensive, I wait. I've seen plenty of boards I've gotten for $10 go for $50-$80 on other auctions. Part of successful eBaying is not fuelling the demand side of the supply and demand curve. -ethan From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 20 23:17:54 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:17:54 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 Digital Software News Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050621001754.00a3e6b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I visited Thom today and he gave me a stack of these. They're short news letters that list PDP-8 related issues such as software releases, bug reports, training classes etc. The ones that I have cover the years 176 through 1978. Are these already on-line somewhere or does someone what to scan them and post them? They're short, only about ten pages each. Joe From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Mon Jun 20 23:23:51 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:23:51 +0200 Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive References: <20050619185014.8E5C970CA09B@bitsavers.org> <200506201300.50512.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <001201c57619$0746fd40$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Lyle Bickley" > I checked out all the drives at Weird Stuff and none have the 800bpi option. If you dont insist on IBM, you should look for e.g. Qualstar 3412S. Excellent drive. It supports for reading : 800, 1600, 3200 and 6250. For writing : 1600, 3200 and 6250. Large diameter reels Nico From vrs at msn.com Mon Jun 20 23:40:38 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:40:38 -0700 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface References: <0IIE0094CUD2D001@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" > On 6/20/05, Allison wrote: > > Is there a schematic {printset} around for MSC-8? > > I have never seen one (and I have plenty of printsets from back in the day). I have one :-). About 20 11"x16.5" sheets. > I'd love to see one to verify differences between the 4Kbit and > 16Kbit-stuffed boards. I'd consider taking one of my 16K boards and > turning it into 128K (easier desoldering than by unpopulating a 32K > board) Mine describes a 16Kw board (half stuffed) and a 32Kw board. Vince From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 23:55:08 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:55:08 -0500 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface In-Reply-To: References: <0IIE0094CUD2D001@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 6/20/05, vrs wrote: > I have one :-). About 20 11"x16.5" sheets. Handy. > > I'd love to see one to verify differences between the 4Kbit and > > 16Kbit-stuffed boards. I'd consider taking one of my 16K boards and > > turning it into 128K (easier desoldering than by unpopulating a 32K > > board) > > Mine describes a 16Kw board (half stuffed) and a 32Kw board. Visually, I've compared my 16K and 32K boards, and my 128K boards, and the only difference can spot is type and quantity of DRAM. I'd like to know for sure. Also... does anyone know about the differences between 4116 and 4164 chips enough to answer the question if one could use 4164s as long as one a) prevents the non-TTL supplies from reaching the chips (modify board, modify sockets, modify pins...) and b) possibly tie up or tie down the extra multiplexed address input. Can you refresh 1/4 of a 4164 and have just that part stay refreshed? I ask because I have a serious wad of new 4164s from COMBOARD stock, but 128Kw of 4116s (8 x 12) is more than I have lying around. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 21 01:43:09 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:43:09 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 Digital Software News In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050621001754.00a3e6b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050621001754.00a3e6b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > I visited Thom today and he gave me a stack of these. They're short news >letters that list PDP-8 related issues such as software releases, bug >reports, training classes etc. The ones that I have cover the years 176 >through 1978. Are these already on-line somewhere or does someone what to >scan them and post them? They're short, only about ten pages each. > > Joe If they're not already online, I should think Al would be the perfect candidate! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jun 21 01:57:04 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:57:04 -0700 Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: <001201c57619$0746fd40$2101a8c0@finans> References: <20050619185014.8E5C970CA09B@bitsavers.org> <200506201300.50512.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <001201c57619$0746fd40$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <200506202357.04309.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 20 June 2005 21:23, Nico de Jong wrote: > From: "Lyle Bickley" > > > I checked out all the drives at Weird Stuff and none have the 800bpi > > option. > > If you dont insist on IBM, you should look for e.g. Qualstar 3412S. > Excellent drive. It supports for reading : 800, 1600, 3200 and 6250. For > writing : 1600, 3200 and 6250. Large diameter reels The drives are HP drives which were OEMed by IBM, Tandem, Sun, Pyramid, etc. They are high quality, reliable and readily available (at least here in Silicon Valley). I own two of them - both being purchased with the last couple of years for $25 each - and both are in near perfect condition. Unfortunately, mine only support 1600 and 6250 bpi. I'll keep my eyes open for the Qualstar - but I've never seen one available from any of the local dealers or scrappers. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From bqt at Update.UU.SE Tue Jun 21 02:05:13 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:05:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: <200506210035.j5L0ZVAs029972@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506210035.j5L0ZVAs029972@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > >>>>> "Johnny" == Johnny Billquist writes: > > > > Johnny> Almost. Non I/D: 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20, 11/21, > > Johnny> 11/23, 11/24, 11/34, 11/35, 11/40, 11/60. > > > > Johnny> Split I/D: 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, > > Johnny> 11/74, 11/83, 11/84, 11/93, 11/94. > > > > Johnny> Did I forget any? :-) > > > > T-11 :-) > > Isn't that covered by the /21 (strictly the SBC21 -- the 'Falcon')? Well, there are more machines using the T11 as well. > I suppose you could include the Pro 325 and 350 (no I/D, F11 chip) and > the Pro 380 (split I/D, J11 chip). But those will not run normal PDP11 > software, the I/O is totally different I believe. True, the I/O is different, but the architecture is the same, so as long as you have an OS doing I/O for you, you can run the same software. RT-11 can boot on a PRO, and P/OS is a derivate of RSX, so you can run RSX software on it as well. And then we have Venix. And I believe BSD2.9 worked as well. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Jun 21 02:05:20 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 02:05:20 -0500 Subject: Data Science XOR computer system Message-ID: <42B7BC30.7000605@pacbell.net> (this is a copy of a message I just sent to the comp.os.cpm user group. I'm relaying it here since these are the two pools of people who might have a line on the information I seek -- sorry to those who lurk both here and there). I was recently given a Data Science XOR computer system, the version with four S-100 slots. There is precious little information on the web -- the one web site with any real information gives credit to "dave coughlin" for the information, but the email address is no longer good. Anyway, here is what condition it is in: The outside of the box is all gummed up and yellow from 20 year old cellophane tape that was used to hold the case together (I'm not sure why the previous owner didn't use screws). A 2"x4" window was put in the side of the case so that the serial port baud rate dip switch could be accessed (why so big a hole?). The insides are pretty dusty and grungy. There are three boards, all Data Science designs it seems. One is the Z80 CPU (4 MHz), two serial ports, one parallel port. The next is a 64 KB DRAM board. The last is the disk controller, with connectors for 8" and 5.25" drives. There are two 8" half height drives in the box. The 50 pin cable from the controller to the drives is missing. The parallel port connector is missing. Nevertheless, after slowly powering up the system with a variac and messing with the baud rate settings, I get the monitor prompt. XOR DATA SCIENCE SYSTEM MONITOR VERS 01.85 F800 I've figured out most of the commands from trial and error, but I'm not sure what the H and X commands do even though I know the parameter syntax. I'm not sure how to boot (if I am ever able to get a boot disk). Unless somebody on this list remembers this monitor, I guess I'll disassemble it (it is 2KB located at F800 to FFFF) and figure it out myself. Better yet, if anybody has a pointer to documents or can and is willing to make a boot disk for me, please reply. In the mean time, I'll work on de-gunking everything. Thanks. From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Tue Jun 21 02:29:18 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:29:18 +0200 Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive References: <20050619185014.8E5C970CA09B@bitsavers.org><200506201300.50512.lbickley@bickleywest.com><001201c57619$0746fd40$2101a8c0@finans> <200506202357.04309.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <001601c57632$ef327170$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Lyle Bickley" > > The drives are HP drives which were OEMed by IBM, Tandem, Sun, Pyramid, etc. > They are high quality, reliable and readily available (at least here in > Silicon Valley). I own two of them - both being purchased with the last > couple of years for $25 each - and both are in near perfect condition. > Unfortunately, mine only support 1600 and 6250 bpi. > > I'll keep my eyes open for the Qualstar - but I've never seen one available > from any of the local dealers or scrappers. You might also want to spy after an M4 9914 drive. All the drives I've had in my vincinity handled all 4 densities read _and_ write. However, according to the documentation, writing 800 bpi is an option. The user/diagnostic manual is available on-line somewhere. Nico From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Jun 21 02:55:32 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:55:32 +0200 (MEST) Subject: PRO-is-not-PDP (was: Re: VTSERVER booting) In-Reply-To: <200506202132.23444.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Tony Duell declared on Monday 20 June 2005 06:49 pm: > > I suppose you could include the Pro 325 and 350 (no I/D, F11 chip) and > > the Pro 380 (split I/D, J11 chip). But those will not run normal PDP11 > > software, the I/O is totally different I believe. > > I've booted RT-11 on my Pro380, so it can't be that far off. It doesn't > have a QBUS/UNIBUS though, so there's not a whole lot of peripherals > that you can use with it. A PRO is a machine based on a PDP-11 chipset (either F11 or J11), and all that comes with it (instruction set, I/O system, intrs) but that's about it. The actual mainboard design is busless, the implementation of onboard I/O, interrupt system etc are different, and the I/O bus (CTIbus) is different. The CTI-bus peripherals are different. The system has RX50 and RDxx drives, for examples, but their controllers are completely different from the ones used in PDP-11's. I ported Ultrix-11 to it (still finishing up so I can package it up for release, so don't ask..) and that wasn't 'simple'. --f From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Jun 21 03:02:55 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:02:55 +0100 Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:21:22 BST." Message-ID: <200506210802.JAA25297@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > [1] THe often-cited advantage of electronic docuemnts -- that you can > search them -- doesn't apply to containers of scanned images. You can say that again! I spent *ages* the other day looking through PDF scans of RT-11 and RSTS/E docs to find out where and how PDP-11 systems store the pack-id on disks! It's much quicker to flip through a paper manual. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From GOOI at oce.nl Tue Jun 21 04:28:04 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:28:04 +0200 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D38@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Ethan, I can remember (several years ago) my first 6809 kit (bus-based) that had a 512x256 pixel-addressable graphics option. That Euro board was TTL and one littlr PROM for RAS/CAS generation. Originally it had 4116 on them, but 3 power voltages with requirements in the order how they came up (and went away) from the 4116's made me change the 4116 into 4164's. 3-quarter of all the 4164's is not used, but they are single +5V. Works perfect, but I can't remember what I did with the two old 4116 power supply pins. AFAIK is is obvious when you compare the pin of both, at least it was t me at that time. Ah yes, there was also one extra "address" pin, IIRC. Tie that to GND or +5, or put a switch (or software controlled output pin to it) There is your basic "bank-switching"! success, - Henk, PA8PDP. > Also... does anyone know about the differences between 4116 and 4164 > chips enough to answer the question if one could use 4164s as long as > one a) prevents the non-TTL supplies from reaching the chips (modify > board, modify sockets, modify pins...) and b) possibly tie up or tie > down the extra multiplexed address input. Can you refresh 1/4 of a > 4164 and have just that part stay refreshed? I ask because I have a > serious wad of new 4164s from COMBOARD stock, but 128Kw of 4116s > (8 x 12) is more than I have lying around. > -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 21 04:44:50 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:44:50 +0000 Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1119347090.14560.9.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 12:51 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > The best thing to do, and actually the most "correct" from a restoration > standpoint, is to paint the plastic. Paint can always be removed. How do you remove paint from plastic without damaging the plastic itself? Strikes me as being a bit different to getting paint off metal or wood, where chemicals aren't going to damage the underlying surface... Personally, I'd just leave it as it is. On some (common) systems swapping cases might be an option (if the cases don't carry any different marking such as serial numbers) - but for a unique machine I'd just live with it. cheers Jules From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jun 21 07:01:45 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:01:45 +0200 Subject: Speaking of VTSERVER.... In-Reply-To: <42B74DA4.4070909@mdrconsult.com> References: <42B74DA4.4070909@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <42B801A9.1050006@hachti.de> I have used this one: ftp://minnie.tuhs.org/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver/ > What's the status of vtserver v3? Don't know if there's another version. This one works. I have added some debug output (because I had problems with my 11's serial port). But that's unneccessary now. Regards, Philipp :-) From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 21 07:26:35 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:26:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: <1119347090.14560.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > How do you remove paint from plastic without damaging the plastic > itself? Strikes me as being a bit different to getting paint off metal > or wood, where chemicals aren't going to damage the underlying > surface... Some of the new environmentally safe strippers are pretty safe for plastic. Also, good old brake fluid works, as long as it does not contact the plastic for more than a couple hours. This is what the train model geeks do when they want to strip a model. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From bqt at Update.UU.SE Tue Jun 21 07:29:19 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:29:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: How to tell... In-Reply-To: <200506211205.j5LC41Bd036104@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506211205.j5LC41Bd036104@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > > >Sellam asked if anyone would be able to tell that Magica (a real PDP-11) > >have been replaced by MIM (an emulated PDP-11). > > > >The answer is yes, and no. > >The only telling thing is the speed. It is much faster than a real > >PDP-11/93, which it emulates. But apart from that, I can't see how you > >could tell. > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > It also depends on how much of E11 you decide to use. Um, no. If you setup E11 to emulate an 11/93, it will emulate an 11/93, and you won't be able to tell the difference apart from the speed. > (a) It is possible to define and implement unused PDP-11 > instruction codes that NO real PDP-11 ever uses! My first > preference would be 32 / 64 Bit Integer Add / Subtract > Instructions. That would probably be very low on my list, for several reasons. 1) Doing arbitrary length add/sub with the existing instruction set is so easy it's silly, and with plenty of speed, there is nothing to bother about from that view either. 2) You already have 32-bit integer add/sub in the FPP. 3) Since available opcodes are restricted, you'd have to either implement a prefix opcode, or have severly restricted arguments for such instructions. Mentec implemented one additional instruction that really is useful, and which atleast RSX will use, if it finds it, and that is a block copy instruction. I don't even know if it has a mnemonic. Moving large chunks of memory is something the systems does a lot in I/O, so that really helps if it can be done faster. > (b) John Wilson has a DLL which allows a PDP-11 user to > directly access the PC RAM: via a "register" in the I/O > page. The file is EMEM.DLL (Emulated Memory). Eventually > I intend to replace the uses of the "hardware MMU" in the > software with the EMEM.DLL so that I don't waste the whole > 8,192 bytes of the PAR devoted to the use of the MMU. It > will also be much faster and can be as large as the user > wants - as much memory (100s of MBytes from PC RAM:) as > the PC has available for E11 to use. This would be for > VIRTUAL A(100000000) in FORTRAN, something impossible > with a real PDP-11. I don't really understand how this is related to the MMU, but anyway, we're just talking of a device here, which interfaces to a larger storage. No different than a number of other devices. The MMU is a different deal, and handles virtual to physical address translations. > (c) The MTPS instruction could be modified to have a value > that would specify E11 in addition to any other PDP-11. Sure. > At present, only (b) is actually available - although this > could be done in hardware for a real PDP-11 so it would not > really say it is not a PDP-11/93. But (a) and (c) could > also be done very easily. Does anyone else have any other > requests that they consider important? Anything can be done (obviously), but not much makes much sense. The block copy instruction is among them. Personally, I'd like to see the full stuff of the 11/74 implemented. I'd even be willing to do some work for it, just to see RSX running in MP. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jun 21 07:40:55 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:40:55 +0200 Subject: Ersatz-11 stop Message-ID: <42B80AD7.5010107@hachti.de> ... Running dbit's E11 emulator under Linux. How to stop it? + doesn't seem to work... Philipp :-) From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 21 07:43:51 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:43:51 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 Digital Software News In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050621001754.00a3e6b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050621001754.00a3e6b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050621084351.00a14690@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Al, Are you listening? Joe At 11:43 PM 6/20/05 -0700, you wrote: >> I visited Thom today and he gave me a stack of these. They're short news >>letters that list PDP-8 related issues such as software releases, bug >>reports, training classes etc. The ones that I have cover the years 19176 >>through 1978. Are these already on-line somewhere or does someone what to >>scan them and post them? They're short, only about ten pages each. >> >> Joe > >If they're not already online, I should think Al would be the perfect >candidate! > > Zane > > > >-- >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 21 08:45:44 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:45:44 -0400 Subject: VTSERVER booting References: <200506201400.j5KE0DNl016799@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200506201802.38455.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <17080.6664.906000.541309@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Finnegan writes: Patrick> On Monday 20 June 2005 12:12, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Non I/D: 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20, 11/21, 11/23, 11/24, >> 11/34, 11/35, 11/40, 11/60. >> >> Split I/D: 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, 11/74, >> 11/83, 11/84, 11/93, 11/94. >> >> Did I forget any? :-) Patrick> Pro 325 & 350 - Non-split I&D (F11) Pro 380 - Split I&D Patrick> (J11) Sure. And if you're going there, there are also the PDT110, 130 and 150 (non/ID I assume, but I'm not sure what's inside). paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 21 09:01:21 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:01:21 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) References: <17078.53678.3303.595949@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17080.7601.304000.48084@gargle.gargle.HOWL> My Philips computer dream is to emulate an EL-X8 and run THE on it. That's likely to be impossible... even if the machine specs could be found, digging up a copy of the THE OS would be tough. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 21 09:03:26 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:03:26 -0400 Subject: VTSERVER booting References: <17078.64244.701786.32953@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17080.7726.976000.933067@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: Tony> I suppose you could include the Pro 325 and 350 (no I/D, F11 Tony> chip) and the Pro 380 (split I/D, J11 chip). But those will not Tony> run normal PDP11 software, the I/O is totally different I Tony> believe. It certainly is -- different and very badly conceived. But then again, Unibus and Q-bus are also different (though not by the same magnitude). A number of OSs run on PROs -- RT, Unix, P/OS, perhaps stock RSX as well. And the RSTS standalone initialization module will boot on a PRO in V9.6, though OS support for it was never released... paul From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 21 09:05:16 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:05:16 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 Digital Software News Message-ID: <33f63a5f7af53df0c5a64b23e0820065@bitsavers.org> Al, Are you listening? Joe At 11:43 PM 6/20/05 -0700, you wrote: >> I visited Thom today and he gave me a stack of these. They're short news >>letters that list PDP-8 related issues such as software releases, bug >>reports, training classes etc. The ones that I have cover the years 19176 >>through 1978. Are these already on-line somewhere or does someone what to >>scan them and post them? They're short, only about ten pages each. >> >> Joe > >If they're not already online, I should think Al would be the perfect >candidate! -- Just saw the msg. I should have them scanned, will try to get them on line this morning, along with the schems for the 8/A semiconductor memory From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 21 09:06:42 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:06:42 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) References: <000001c57585$90276c10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <42B764C0.6010304@compsys.to> <006301c57605$f1933e40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <17080.7922.599000.996102@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >> Does anyone have any success with a CD emulation program that will >> allow me to use a CD image file (an exact duplicate of the ISO >> image file of the CD which was used to burn the CD in the first >> place)? cdrecord on Linux should do that. I've used it to make backup copies of CDs, via a CDrom image file. That's a nice package, especially if you give it the non-commercial use cdrecord-pro key, then it will do full DVD writing, too. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 21 09:10:29 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:10:29 -0400 Subject: VTSERVER booting References: <200506202132.23444.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <17080.8149.453000.922204@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Finnegan writes: Patrick> Tony Duell declared on Monday 20 June 2005 06:49 pm: >> I suppose you could include the Pro 325 and 350 (no I/D, F11 chip) >> and the Pro 380 (split I/D, J11 chip). But those will not run >> normal PDP11 software, the I/O is totally different I believe. Patrick> I've booted RT-11 on my Pro380, so it can't be that far off. Oh, it is, it sure is way off. Not only are the I/O devices completely different, but the interrupt system is very ugly. A PRO is basically a PDP-11 CPU with a pile of first generation PC support chips glued onto the side, making quite an ugly mongrel. The PRO technical manual is on bitsavers.org. Take a look at the system unit chapter and check out the I/O section, especially the interrupt controller. You'll see what I mean. I did the work to port RSTS to a PRO. It was a large job, and I make my rude comments about the PRO I/O "architecture" based on first hand knowledge... paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 21 09:16:40 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:16:40 -0400 Subject: How to tell... References: <200506211205.j5LC41Bd036104@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <17080.8520.794000.975679@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Johnny" == Johnny Billquist writes: Johnny> Mentec implemented one additional instruction that really is Johnny> useful, and which atleast RSX will use, if it finds it, and Johnny> that is a block copy instruction. I don't even know if it has Johnny> a mnemonic. Moving large chunks of memory is something the Johnny> systems does a lot in I/O, so that really helps if it can be Johnny> done faster. Is that just the MOVC instruction (part of the CIS optional set) or something else? If CIS is present, RSTS will use MOVC for block move automatically. paul From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 21 09:12:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data Science XOR computer system In-Reply-To: <42B7BC30.7000605@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > I've figured out most of the commands from trial and error, but I'm not > sure what the H and X commands do even though I know the parameter > syntax. I'm not sure how to boot (if I am ever able to get a boot disk). Maybe X is eXecute? Try X or X? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 21 09:23:17 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:23:17 -0400 Subject: Ersatz-11 stop References: <42B80AD7.5010107@hachti.de> Message-ID: <17080.8917.902590.109338@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Philipp" == Philipp Hachtmann writes: Philipp> ... Running dbit's E11 emulator under Linux. How to stop it? Philipp> + doesn't seem to work... Control/P. paul From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 09:26:57 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:26:57 +0100 Subject: Still available in UK: 2 sets of BA23 skins Message-ID: Hi list, I didn't succeed in getting rid of these last time, so I'm posting them again: I have 2 sets of BA23 skins available. One is totally complete, the other one is missing (IIRC) the velcro-on rear cover which hides all the cables, and there is a chunk missing out of the base foot. I think one (IIRC, the good one) still has its little transparent plastic envelope stuck to it holding the DEC maintenance card. If you want either/both, please make an offer by private mail. Offers can be from "free" upwards :) Priority will be given to anyone who will come and pick them up (West Yorkshire), but I will ship anywhere as long as you're prepared to a) pay all costs, and b) wait for the amount of time it'll take me to track down boxes big enough for them. Ed. From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Jun 21 10:09:57 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:09:57 -0500 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <17080.7601.304000.48084@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <17078.53678.3303.595949@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17080.7601.304000.48084@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42B82DC5.9060703@pacbell.net> Paul Koning wrote: > My Philips computer dream is to emulate an EL-X8 and run THE on it. > That's likely to be impossible... even if the machine specs could be > found, digging up a copy of the THE OS would be tough. > > paul Here's what has worked for me, twice. Back when I started my Sol archive, there was very little on the web. So I put up a web page and posted the little information I had. I scoured ebay and did a lot of googling and posted many emails to people who might remember the Sol. Pretty soon people started emailing me and I had more and more for my web site. The more that was on there the more people sent me. Although my Sol web site is more developed, my main interest lies in the Wang 2200. I had made little progress on that front, so I tried the same trick: I posted a web site and before long, former Wang FAE's and sales people and an assortment of people who had used it contacted me. 95% just say "thanks," but those few others send something or on occasion (like the former wang fae who kept many dozens of schematics) you hit the jackpot. So go and build the world's most comprehensive web site on the EL-X8 and THE, even if it is one page. Be sure it is very easy to get your email address from the page. It might take a year or two, but you'll find things that way. From kth at srv.net Tue Jun 21 10:15:29 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:15:29 -0600 Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B82F11.5060809@srv.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >It's the baud rate then. Also, make sure you have the serial connections >correct. I just used two wires: one for TX and one for RX. No other >control signals are required, and it works just fine. I used shielded >wire. > > I would greatly recommend using a signal ground wire (pin 7 on RS-232). You can get weird, unreproducible problems without it. It can cause really hard problems to trace down. The ground between two different boxes can float about enough to cause signal reliability problems. The float can sometimes vary enough to generate random character streams. The longer the distance between the boxes, the more likely you will have problems. But you normally don't want to connect frame grounds (pin 1 on RS-232 cables iirc). You sometimes get an amazing amount of current through the cables, even enough to melt them. From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Jun 21 10:16:02 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:16:02 -0500 Subject: Data Science XOR computer system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B82F32.7080902@pacbell.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > > >>I've figured out most of the commands from trial and error, but I'm not >>sure what the H and X commands do even though I know the parameter >>syntax. I'm not sure how to boot (if I am ever able to get a boot disk). > > > Maybe X is eXecute? Try X or X? > No, G nnnn is for that. (GO) Typing X gets the prompt "Bank ?" Typing 0 seems to have no effect. Typing another number (1-F) causes a machine hang. I assume it is bank switching for banked (eXtended) memory switching, but I don't know for sure. H is weirder still. The format is H aaaa bbbb cc dd ee ff ... You can enter any number of bytes cc dd ee ff. aaaa is a start address, and bbbb is an end address (exclusive). Whatever you type, whether it is one or N bytes, cc is stored at address aaaa. The other bytes aren't stored. Depending on the contents of memory and the bytes supplied, some of the addresses between aaaa and bbbb-1 are printed out. I was guessing it is a byte string search command, but the fact that the first byte is saved to memory disproves that assumption. I guess I'll have to disassemble it. The monitor is 2KB and it seems like the available commands aren't very powerful given the 2KB size of it. Perhaps the boot code takes up a lot of it. Since classiccmp archives these messages, I might as well supply the other commands in case somebody googles this message in the future: Connecting a serial cable from COM1 of my PC to the lower port on the back of the XOR box, set at 9600 baud, 8 data, 1 stop I get a response. Inside the box is a little diagram showing settings for 1200 and 9600 baud. On power up it says: XOR DATA SCIENCE SYSTEM MONITOR VERS 01.85 F800 F800 - FFFF is where the monitor lives, making it 2 KB. Anyway, these commands appear to exist: D AAAA BBBB : dump memory in hex from address AAAA to BBBB. hitting any key stops this mode and is taken as the first keystroke of a new command. F AAAA BBBB CC : fill memory from AAAA to BBBB-1 with byte CC G AAAA : jump to address AAAA (eg. G F800 reboots) H AAAA BBBB CC DD EE FF ... : not sure F 0000 F800 00 (fill memory with 00) H 1000 1010 00 shows 1000, 1001, etc one per line. also, memory 1000 gets set to 00. H 1000 1010 11 shows 1000 alone on a line and memory 1000 gets set to 11. Adding more bytes doesn't appear to do anything extra. L AAAA : shows the current byte at address AAAA and waits for input. entering CR then moves to the next byte; entering a hex value replaces that value; entering "." exits this mode. M AAAA BBBB CCCC : block move from AAAA to BBBB for CCCC bytes V AAAA : dumps memory in ASCII, 64 chars/line, stopping after each 24 lines, waiting for a CR. Hitting space instead of CR stops this mode. X : gets a "Bank ?" message. Hitting 0 seems like no problem, 1 causes a hang. The spaces aren't entered -- the parser enforces them. You can enter fewer than four (or two for byte values) nibbles by hitting CR when the given field is complete, eg F10203 will fill bytes 10 to 1F with the value 03. I'm not sure how the disk is booted. From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jun 21 10:17:26 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:17:26 -0500 Subject: Vectrex Game goes for $800 Message-ID: <00a501c57674$5739b210$7e406b43@66067007> Does anyone know what is so special about this game? BERZERK http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8198941347&category=4315&sspagename=rvi:1:2v_home From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 21 10:24:02 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:24:02 -0400 Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? References: <42B82F11.5060809@srv.net> Message-ID: <17080.12562.391677.257681@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Handy writes: Kevin> But you normally don't want to connect frame grounds (pin 1 on Kevin> RS-232 cables iirc). You sometimes get an amazing amount of Kevin> current through the cables, even enough to melt them. If your boxes are plugged into grounded outlets, as they should be, then there should NOT be large currents flowing through frame ground cables. If you do observe that, track down the fault before someone gets hurt. paul From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jun 21 10:27:43 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:27:43 -0400 Subject: Vectrex Game goes for $800 In-Reply-To: <00a501c57674$5739b210$7e406b43@66067007> References: <00a501c57674$5739b210$7e406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <42B831EF.7070705@atarimuseum.com> Japanese version of Vectrex items are rare, however $800 rare? I don't know about that.... Vectrex's hold their value, but the game selection is slim and many of the titles don't translate well into vectored format, its an acquired niche collecting item, stuff like the lightpen and the 3D viewers are the more sought after items and are usually the ones that fetch higher bids, but $800 for a Bandai Berzerk seems a bit over the top IMHO Curt Keys wrote: > Does anyone know what is so special about this game? BERZERK > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8198941347&category=4315&sspagename=rvi:1:2v_home > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.9/23 - Release Date: 6/20/2005 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 21 10:40:50 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:40:50 -0400 Subject: VTSERVER booting Message-ID: <0IIF00341Y82Q6H3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VTSERVER booting > From: Paul Koning > Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:45:44 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Finnegan writes: > > Patrick> On Monday 20 June 2005 12:12, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> Non I/D: 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20, 11/21, 11/23, 11/24, > >> 11/34, 11/35, 11/40, 11/60. > >> > >> Split I/D: 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, 11/74, > >> 11/83, 11/84, 11/93, 11/94. > >> > >> Did I forget any? :-) > > Patrick> Pro 325 & 350 - Non-split I&D (F11) Pro 380 - Split I&D > Patrick> (J11) > >Sure. And if you're going there, there are also the PDT110, 130 and >150 (non/ID I assume, but I'm not sure what's inside). > > paul PDT-11/xxx The PDT series are essentialy the same, a 8085 to handle serial IO plus a biderectional 8bit parallel port to either nothing (/110), a parallel IO varient of the TU58 (/130) or a board with another 8085 and 1771 FDC to run two 8" RX01 compatable floppies (/150). The chipset is KD11 (same as LSI-11 and 11/2) sans KEV11 FIS. Runs RT11 and maybe other stuff. Programming the IO is a bit more sane that PRO and some ports emulate DL interface and lines but, it's still not standard unibus or Qbus 11. Allison From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jun 21 11:14:32 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:14:32 -0500 Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B83CE8.6060905@mdrconsult.com> William Donzelli wrote: > Also, good old brake fluid works, as long as it does not contact the > plastic for more than a couple hours. This is what the train model geeks > do when they want to strip a model. In the fifties (and maybe before that) used car dealers would move a car with badly chalked paint by polishing it with brake fluid. They'd then price it to sell very quickly, as the paint would start to peel in a matter of weeks. Doc From rickb at bensene.com Tue Jun 21 11:15:36 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:15:36 -0700 Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? In-Reply-To: <42B82F11.5060809@srv.net> Message-ID: <20050621161152.D9CCD97C30@pail.bensene.com> I keep hearing about this TU58 simulator, but haven't been able to find it. Can someone point me to it? Preferably one that compiles and runs under Linux. Thanks, Rick Bensene From dholland at woh.rr.com Tue Jun 21 11:17:00 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:17:00 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <42B764C0.6010304@compsys.to> References: <000001c57585$90276c10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <42B764C0.6010304@compsys.to> Message-ID: <1119370620.21157.6.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 20:52 -0400, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > At present, I am using Windows 98 SE (I realize that this > is badly off topic, but I can't successfully use anything > else with E11 to run my RT-11 programs). Does anyone > have any success with a CD emulation program that will > allow me to use a CD image file (an exact duplicate of > the ISO image file of the CD which was used to burn the > CD in the first place)? Are there both free and commercial > versions? What are the advantages and the disadvantages? (Both free) Linux: mount -o loop,ro /path/to/cdimage.iso /mntpoint Or point the emulator at a 'dd' image file of the CD. Windows: DAEMON Tools. The Linux command only tends to work with CD Images that are in ISO format's, and contain a filesystem type Linux recognizes. Daemon tools works w/ just about every format under the sun. http://www.daemon-tools.cc/dtcc/portal/portal.php I believe that's the site. Its most commonly used to image WinTendo copy protected CDRoms, but it should do what you want. The image file should show up as a CD drive under Windows. I'm not 100% certain how that would interact w/ an emulator, it _should_ work. In theory. David From mokuba at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 11:17:22 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:17:22 -0400 Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/20/05 7:29 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> >> There's no need to repair the hardware of a PC. If you're as > > There is for me. Period. I am not using things I don't understand and > can't repair. > >> frugal as you indicate, and can leave the house to rub shoulders >> with other computer users, you will find an unending stream of >> cast-off free-or-nearly-so PCs from three PC generations > > I've never found such people. The only remotely PC-biased hacker I know > actively collectes 486s and later to run linux on. So he's not going to > be a source od machines. > I give up :) You can't win this debate! From mokuba at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 11:19:55 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:19:55 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 Digital Software News In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 176 to 1978? Damn long time for a computer to operate! On 6/21/05 2:43 AM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> I visited Thom today and he gave me a stack of these. They're short news >> letters that list PDP-8 related issues such as software releases, bug >> reports, training classes etc. The ones that I have cover the years 176 >> through 1978. Are these already on-line somewhere or does someone what to >> scan them and post them? They're short, only about ten pages each. >> >> Joe > > If they're not already online, I should think Al would be the perfect > candidate! > > Zane > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 21 11:34:58 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:34:58 -0500 Subject: IBM 9348 9-track tape drive References: <20050619185014.8E5C970CA09B@bitsavers.org><200506201300.50512.lbickley@bickleywest.com><001201c57619$0746fd40$2101a8c0@finans><200506202357.04309.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <001601c57632$ef327170$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <005701c5767f$2a896a20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Nico wrote... > You might also want to spy after an M4 9914 drive. All the drives I've had > in my vincinity handled all 4 densities read _and_ write. However, > according > to the documentation, writing 800 bpi is an option. The user/diagnostic > manual is available on-line somewhere. Speaking of which... my M4 9914 is sick. It works at 1600 and 6250, but not 800 & 3200. It *IS* supposed to work at 800 & 3200. I talked to a company that does repair, and they said it is most likely the "ADP" board inside the unit. Of course they wanted an obscene price for a new ADP board. Does anyone have a junque 9914 that they'd be willing to yank the boards out of for me as a trade or cash? Jay From kth at srv.net Tue Jun 21 11:37:05 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:37:05 -0600 Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? In-Reply-To: <17080.12562.391677.257681@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42B82F11.5060809@srv.net> <17080.12562.391677.257681@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42B84231.5060604@srv.net> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Kevin" == Kevin Handy writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > > Kevin> But you normally don't want to connect frame grounds (pin 1 on > Kevin> RS-232 cables iirc). You sometimes get an amazing amount of > Kevin> current through the cables, even enough to melt them. > >If your boxes are plugged into grounded outlets, as they should be, >then there should NOT be large currents flowing through frame ground >cables. If you do observe that, track down the fault before someone >gets hurt. > > paul > > Grounds are usually local to the building they are in. Grounds are often done using a metal post hammered into the ground (hence the name). The ground is not supplied by the power company. Two buildings can each be properly grounded, but their grounds can be at different voltage levels. Sometimes one building may have two different grounds. It gets fun where the outlets in one wall are grounded to one side of the building, and another wall is grounded to the other side. It's a good way to fry equipment. If you have a cable between the two buildings, you can get a voltage difference between the two grounds. Especially if you have a lightning strike in the area. And yes, I've seen damage caused by such differing potentials, as well as measured the difference between two buildings. I measured 70+ volts in one instance, without any lightning in the area (after one melted terminal). We went with some short-haul modems in that instance (opto-isolated, differential pairs). From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 11:35:02 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:35:02 -0500 Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? In-Reply-To: <17080.12562.391677.257681@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42B82F11.5060809@srv.net> <17080.12562.391677.257681@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 6/21/05, Paul Koning wrote: > If your boxes are plugged into grounded outlets, as they should be, > then there should NOT be large currents flowing through frame ground > cables. If you do observe that, track down the fault before someone > gets hurt. The key word is "should"... If you get some ya-hoo who decides they can save a few $$$ and wire up an outlet... well... let's just say that the first homeowner's tool I bought was an outlet tester, and I found two outlets that had hot and neutral reversed... I worked at a place where the owner plugged a serial cable in between his PC and his Mac, and he roached the Mac serial port because of the same problem. He had all the outlets tested and fixed, but he also made a proclaimation - no computers were to be connected via serial cables unless they pulled their power from the same wall outlet. A bit inflexible, but guaranteed not to have a mismatch. -ethan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 21 11:48:27 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my computers, status Message-ID: <200506211648.JAA14729@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Jennings" > >On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Tom wrote: >>> Just a quick note on why I've been silent on my DG Nova 4, LGP-21, >>> etc all summer... >> >> Since you're not in the southern hemisphere, I'm not sure what you >> mean. Summer doesn't start here in the northern hemisphere for >> another few days yet. > >Summer is when it's warm, winter when it's cold and/or rains. >Those are the only two recognizable seasons in Los Angeles. Hi I spent 4 years in Florida and they have two seasons there but I'm not sure what you'd call them. During the normal winter months, it is hot and muggy. During what we call the summer months, it is hotter and muggier. Dwight From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 21 12:02:40 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:02:40 -0400 Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? References: <42B82F11.5060809@srv.net> <17080.12562.391677.257681@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42B84231.5060604@srv.net> Message-ID: <17080.18480.55357.477139@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Handy writes: Kevin> Grounds are usually local to the building they are in. Kevin> Grounds are often done using a metal post hammered into the Kevin> ground (hence the name). The ground is not supplied by the Kevin> power company. Two buildings can each be properly grounded, Kevin> but their grounds can be at different voltage levels. Certainly. Kevin> Sometimes one building may have two different grounds. It gets Kevin> fun where the outlets in one wall are grounded to one side of Kevin> the building, and another wall is grounded to the other Kevin> side. It's a good way to fry equipment. More importantly, it's a hazard to people. And it's a violation of the electric code. Yes it happens, and my point applies: you'd want to fix it before someone gets hurt. I remember hearing that this happened at one of DEC's buildings, and one of the computer rooms had this wiring issue. It melted the big "welding cable" ground straps that are used on RP04 class disk drive cabinets. paul From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 21 12:16:33 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:16:33 -0400 Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: <200506211700.j5LH0lJJ039383@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200506211716.j5LHGWHI025244@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> When I worked at Genicom, they had a printer refurbish department for "all brands" and I saw various Epson, etc. printers going out that looked just like new, and I saw them coming in with the yellow discoloration. I asked one of the guys how they did that, and he said that they painted the covers. The discoloration is caused by UV light exposure, which in turn comes from fluorescent lighting. It won't happen under incandescent light, but all offices have fluorescent lighting. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 21 12:14:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vectrex Game goes for $800 In-Reply-To: <00a501c57674$5739b210$7e406b43@66067007> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Keys wrote: > Does anyone know what is so special about this game? BERZERK > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8198941347&category=4315&sspagename=rvi:1:2v_home Misplaced priorities? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 21 12:17:44 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? In-Reply-To: <20050621161152.D9CCD97C30@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Rick Bensene wrote: > I keep hearing about this TU58 simulator, but haven't been able to find it. > Can someone point me to it? Preferably one that compiles and runs under > Linux. Hi Rick. For you I'll repeat myself a third time in about as many weeks :) Here's a jumping off point for both DOS and Linux versions: http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/tu58-emu.htm -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 21 12:25:23 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:25:23 -0400 Subject: my computers, status In-Reply-To: <200506211648.JAA14729@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050621132523.009bd990@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:48 AM 6/21/05 -0700, you wrote: >>From: "Tom Jennings" >> >>On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Eric Smith wrote: >> >>> Tom wrote: >>>> Just a quick note on why I've been silent on my DG Nova 4, LGP-21, >>>> etc all summer... >>> >>> Since you're not in the southern hemisphere, I'm not sure what you >>> mean. Summer doesn't start here in the northern hemisphere for >>> another few days yet. >> >>Summer is when it's warm, winter when it's cold and/or rains. >>Those are the only two recognizable seasons in Los Angeles. > >Hi > I spent 4 years in Florida and they have two seasons there >but I'm not sure what you'd call them. During the normal winter >months, it is hot and muggy. During what we call the summer >months, it is hotter and muggier. >Dwight Winter = Warm and muggy Spring = HOT and sweltering Summer = Alternates between dowsings with scolding rain and solar inferno! Fall = only four more months of summer! yes four months, winter is only about 1 1/2 months long here! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 21 12:16:34 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:16:34 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 Digital Software News In-Reply-To: <33f63a5f7af53df0c5a64b23e0820065@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050621131634.00a1a490@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:05 AM 6/21/05 -0700, you wrote: >Al, > > Are you listening? > > Joe > >At 11:43 PM 6/20/05 -0700, you wrote: > >> I visited Thom today and he gave me a stack of these. They're >short news > >>letters that list PDP-8 related issues such as software releases, bug > >>reports, training classes etc. The ones that I have cover the years >19176 > >>through 1978. Are these already on-line somewhere or does someone >what to > >>scan them and post them? They're short, only about ten pages each. > >> > >> Joe > > > >If they're not already online, I should think Al would be the perfect > >candidate! > >-- > >Just saw the msg. I should have them scanned, will try to get them on >line this >morning, along with the schems for the 8/A semiconductor memory > > Let me know when you get them on-line and I'll check and see if I have any different ones. FWIW I found one more this morming. Also dug a HUGE pile of -8 manuals about of the mountain of DEC manuals that I got last week. Even found a drawing set for a MINC 11!! Joe From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 21 12:26:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: <200506211716.j5LHGWHI025244@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Barry Watzman wrote: > The discoloration is caused by UV light exposure And exposure from Sun. I have many items that are discolored on one side, where something was exposed to a window. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 21 12:39:05 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:39:05 -0700 Subject: 1976 software reviews In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050621000444.009b3660@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050620184548.009c1ca0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050620180601.009b8d80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050620180601.009b8d80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050620184548.009c1ca0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050621000444.009b3660@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: it took a while to grind through all of the scans. looks like I actually DON'T have the ones you have. I have 78-80 (about 900 pages) and early ones (pre '74) 198010_PDP8swNews_AA-K629A-BA 198008_PDP8swNews_AA-K357A-BA 198006_PDP8swNews_AA-K033A-BA 198004_PDP8swNews_AA-J871A-BA 198002_PDP8swNews_AA-J639A-BA 197912_PDP8swNews_AA-J442A-BA 197910_PDP8swNews_AA-J235A-BA 197908_PDP8swNews_AA-J115A-BA 197906_PDP8swNews_AA-H941A-BA 197904_PDP8swNews_AA-H820A-BA 197902_PDP8swNews_AA-H674A-BA 197901_PDP8swNews_AA-H554A-BA 197810_PDP8swNews_AA-H199A-BA 197808_PDP8swNews_AA-D977A-BA 197806_PDP8swNews_AA-D770A-BA 197804_PDP8swNews_aa-d604a-ba 197603_PDP8swNews_dec-08-xsmad-a-d 197710_OS8swRev_AA-0877I-BA From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 21 12:42:14 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my computers, status Message-ID: <200506211742.KAA14785@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > >At 09:48 AM 6/21/05 -0700, you wrote: >>>From: "Tom Jennings" >>> >>>On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Eric Smith wrote: >>> >>>> Tom wrote: >>>>> Just a quick note on why I've been silent on my DG Nova 4, LGP-21, >>>>> etc all summer... >>>> >>>> Since you're not in the southern hemisphere, I'm not sure what you >>>> mean. Summer doesn't start here in the northern hemisphere for >>>> another few days yet. >>> >>>Summer is when it's warm, winter when it's cold and/or rains. >>>Those are the only two recognizable seasons in Los Angeles. >> >>Hi >> I spent 4 years in Florida and they have two seasons there >>but I'm not sure what you'd call them. During the normal winter >>months, it is hot and muggy. During what we call the summer >>months, it is hotter and muggier. >>Dwight > > Winter = Warm and muggy > Spring = HOT and sweltering > Summer = Alternates between dowsings with scolding rain and solar inferno! > Fall = only four more months of summer! > yes four months, winter is only about 1 1/2 months long here! > > Joe Yes, Joe. That is close to what I remember :) In Florida, when they say there is a 50% chance of rain, they mean that 50% of the people will be rained on. It doesn't have the same meaning as elsewhere. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 21 12:44:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 Digital Software News Message-ID: <200506211744.KAA14789@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > >At 07:05 AM 6/21/05 -0700, you wrote: >>Al, >> >> Are you listening? >> >> Joe >> >>At 11:43 PM 6/20/05 -0700, you wrote: >> >> I visited Thom today and he gave me a stack of these. They're >>short news >> >>letters that list PDP-8 related issues such as software releases, bug >> >>reports, training classes etc. The ones that I have cover the years >>19176 >> >>through 1978. Are these already on-line somewhere or does someone >>what to >> >>scan them and post them? They're short, only about ten pages each. >> >> >> >> Joe >> > >> >If they're not already online, I should think Al would be the perfect >> >candidate! >> >>-- >> >>Just saw the msg. I should have them scanned, will try to get them on >>line this >>morning, along with the schems for the 8/A semiconductor memory >> >> > > Let me know when you get them on-line and I'll check and see if I have >any different ones. FWIW I found one more this morming. Also dug a HUGE >pile of -8 manuals about of the mountain of DEC manuals that I got last >week. Even found a drawing set for a MINC 11!! > > Joe Hi For glossy surfaces, I've had some luck using Goof Off. It seems to soak into the plastic and remove some stains. I rub it, not soak it. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 21 12:49:42 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M Software Archive Message-ID: <200506211749.KAA14794@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Gary Sparkes" > >Well, it seems I've now got hosting space for said archive! > >Now, I need software to put up! > >Don't exactly have a holding place at the moment, so any >Method to get me a few pieces to put up to start us off >Would be REALLY appreciated! Hi As you get these images, always ask what controller is being used for the disk and what I/O card is used for the console. Many of the early machines OEM'd these parts of the system and the boot image for one machine may work for another. It would be great to also index by these parameters as well. I just thought, get the RAM size as well. It is good to know if it is a 32K to 64K system. Can others think of what else should be kept track of? Dwight From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Jun 21 13:00:16 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:00:16 +0200 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement , now Philips In-Reply-To: <17080.7601.304000.48084@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <52712F7F-E27E-11D9-8363-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Am dinsdag, 21.06.05, um 16:01 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Paul Koning: > My Philips computer dream is to emulate an EL-X8 and run THE on it. > That's likely to be impossible... even if the machine specs could be > found, digging up a copy of the THE OS would be tough. > > paul > > You could try these people : http://www.grande-dixence.ch/en/gd_hydraulique/potentiel.php They started off with an Elektrologica X8 for control of their dam, In my workplace they used Philips ( one l please , not two...) P856 and P857 16 bit minicomputers to test watch IC's. All these minis were dumped, I rescued just one , plus some spare boards to keep it running. No software could be found to for them. Jos Dreesen From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 13:00:11 2005 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:00:11 -0400 Subject: Heathkit HDOS source listings In-Reply-To: References: <00b301c571ef$c60c6270$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: Hello all, I recently acquired a 4-volume set of Heathkit HDOS source listings. They are in assembly langage, printed out on May 16th, 1980. They have nicely printed cover pages from Heathkit, and the rest appear to be photocopies of greenbar paper listings. I haven't examined them completely, but they appear to be intact, readable, and complete. The command processor and BASIC interpreter are definitely there, and there is a lot more as well... I'll post more details if anyone is interested. Also, I don't know if these are archived anywhere. If not, is there interest in getting these scanned and posted? If so, I'll move it to the top of the list. Bear in mind it's at least a 6" high stack, double-side printed, so "top of the stack" may still take a while to do... :-) I found some comments by a "J.G. Letwin". Perchance the same Letwin of OS/2 fame? Thanks, Rich B. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 21 13:04:10 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:04:10 -0700 Subject: Heathkit HDOS source listings Message-ID: I found some comments by a "J.G. Letwin". Perchance the same Letwin of OS/2 fame? -- Correct. His bio in "Inside OS/2" mentions this. From spc at conman.org Tue Jun 21 13:04:47 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: my computers, status In-Reply-To: <200506211648.JAA14729@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at Jun 21, 2005 09:48:27 AM Message-ID: <20050621180447.E4FD873029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Dwight K. Elvey once stated: > > >Summer is when it's warm, winter when it's cold and/or rains. > >Those are the only two recognizable seasons in Los Angeles. > > Hi > I spent 4 years in Florida and they have two seasons there > but I'm not sure what you'd call them. During the normal winter > months, it is hot and muggy. During what we call the summer > months, it is hotter and muggier. > Dwight They're called the "tourist season" and the "wet season." -spc (Currently in the "wet season" ... ) From kth at srv.net Tue Jun 21 13:11:52 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:11:52 -0600 Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? In-Reply-To: <17080.18480.55357.477139@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42B82F11.5060809@srv.net> <17080.12562.391677.257681@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42B84231.5060604@srv.net> <17080.18480.55357.477139@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42B85868.1070509@srv.net> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Kevin" == Kevin Handy writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > > Kevin> Grounds are usually local to the building they are in. > Kevin> Grounds are often done using a metal post hammered into the > Kevin> ground (hence the name). The ground is not supplied by the > Kevin> power company. Two buildings can each be properly grounded, > Kevin> but their grounds can be at different voltage levels. > >Certainly. > > Kevin> Sometimes one building may have two different grounds. It gets > Kevin> fun where the outlets in one wall are grounded to one side of > Kevin> the building, and another wall is grounded to the other > Kevin> side. It's a good way to fry equipment. > >More importantly, it's a hazard to people. And it's a violation of >the electric code. Yes it happens, and my point applies: you'd want >to fix it before someone gets hurt. > > > Usually not too hard to get fixed, if you talk to the right person. Sometimes it's hard to find the right person. (ie. phb: "sounds expensive, we'll just work around it") However, you first have to discover the problem. It's rare enough that it's not something you usually check for, unless it's causing problems. Until you can get it fixed, you still have to deal with the problem in the meantime, or suffer more damaged equipment. You unplug it, people will say "we need this" and plug it back in. (Hint: to keep something unplugged, turn it upside down and open a random panel or two, or remove the cover. Scares them off for a while. An oscilloscope nearby helps too, even if it's just plugged into it's own square wave generator.) Cables between two buildings are usually not going to get the building grounds joined. You then need to do something to work around it (opto-isolate, optical fiber, radio/microwave, etc) >I remember hearing that this happened at one of DEC's buildings, and >one of the computer rooms had this wiring issue. It melted the big >"welding cable" ground straps that are used on RP04 class disk drive >cabinets. > > Yes, you can get an amazing amount of power out of it in some cases, but it's not reliable enough to expect to power anything with it. You usually need an electrical storm nearby to cause a gradient. From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Tue Jun 21 13:11:39 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:11:39 -0400 Subject: Heathkit HDOS source listings Message-ID: Yes, I have read that Gordon Letwin worked at Heath before coming to Microsoft. He worked on OS/2 and Windows. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Beaudry Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 2:00 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Heathkit HDOS source listings Hello all, I recently acquired a 4-volume set of Heathkit HDOS source listings. They are in assembly langage, printed out on May 16th, 1980. They have nicely printed cover pages from Heathkit, and the rest appear to be photocopies of greenbar paper listings. I haven't examined them completely, but they appear to be intact, readable, and complete. The command processor and BASIC interpreter are definitely there, and there is a lot more as well... I'll post more details if anyone is interested. Also, I don't know if these are archived anywhere. If not, is there interest in getting these scanned and posted? If so, I'll move it to the top of the list. Bear in mind it's at least a 6" high stack, double-side printed, so "top of the stack" may still take a while to do... :-) I found some comments by a "J.G. Letwin". Perchance the same Letwin of OS/2 fame? Thanks, Rich B. From kth at srv.net Tue Jun 21 13:16:42 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 12:16:42 -0600 Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B8598A.7060605@srv.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Barry Watzman wrote: > > > >>The discoloration is caused by UV light exposure >> >> > >And exposure from Sun. I have many items that are discolored on one side, >where something was exposed to a window. > > > And cigarette smoke. I've "fixed" several "dim" terminals with the liberal use of 409 (a cleaner). It's amazing how thick the gunk can get. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 21 13:22:41 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:22:41 -0500 Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? In-Reply-To: <42B84231.5060604@srv.net> References: <17080.12562.391677.257681@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42B84231.5060604@srv.net> Message-ID: <200506211322.41626.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 21 June 2005 11:37, Kevin Handy wrote: > If you have a cable between the two buildings, you > can get a voltage difference between the two grounds. > Especially if you have a lightning strike in the area. This is why Purdue has a nice and heafty copper bar (1-2 sq-in cross-section) running through its steam tunnels which is what all of the buildings' grounds are connected to. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 21 13:26:50 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:26:50 -0500 Subject: Paging Bill Yakowenko Message-ID: <004001c5768e$cb15bc00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tried to get ahold of Bill Yakowenko several times, no reply. Anyone have a good email address for him? Jay West From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 21 13:29:05 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:29:05 +0000 Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1119378545.14836.13.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 10:26 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Barry Watzman wrote: > > > The discoloration is caused by UV light exposure > > And exposure from Sun. The computer manufacturer? :-) From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jun 21 13:31:15 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:31:15 -0500 Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B85CF3.9000108@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Barry Watzman wrote: > > >>The discoloration is caused by UV light exposure > > > And exposure from Sun. I have many items that are discolored on one side, > where something was exposed to a window. Whereas exposure from IBM tends to turn things Blue.... Doc, who'll be leaving now From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Tue Jun 21 13:39:12 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:39:12 +0200 Subject: my computers, status References: <200506211648.JAA14729@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000e01c57690$853a8420$2101a8c0@finans> > I spent 4 years in Florida and they have two seasons there > but I'm not sure what you'd call them. During the normal winter > months, it is hot and muggy. During what we call the summer > months, it is hotter and muggier. > Dwight > Urban legend has it, that when african people come to Denmark, they say that Denmark has two winters : a green one and a white one Nico From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Jun 21 13:37:17 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:37:17 -0400 (edt) Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: <42B85CF3.9000108@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Jun 21, 05 01:31:15 pm Message-ID: <200506211837.OAA31889@wordstock.com> And thusly Doc Shipley spake: > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Barry Watzman wrote: > > > > > >>The discoloration is caused by UV light exposure > > > > > > And exposure from Sun. I have many items that are discolored on one side, > > where something was exposed to a window. > > Whereas exposure from IBM tends to turn things Blue.... at least windows only causes your screen to turn blue.... Cheers, Bryan From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 13:50:28 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Where are my HHC BASIC ROMs? Message-ID: <20050621185029.77246.qmail@web40908.mail.yahoo.com> Where is Roger Merchberger? I still haven't received my HHC BASIC ROMs which I paid for. __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 21 13:52:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: <42B85CF3.9000108@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Barry Watzman wrote: > > > > > >>The discoloration is caused by UV light exposure > > > > > > And exposure from Sun. I have many items that are discolored on one side, > > where something was exposed to a window. > > Whereas exposure from IBM tends to turn things Blue.... I tend to refer to things in nature as first person proper names. It makes them more friendly and personal. More people should do this. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Jun 21 14:04:15 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:04:15 -0400 Subject: Where are my HHC BASIC ROMs? In-Reply-To: <20050621185029.77246.qmail@web40908.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050621185029.77246.qmail@web40908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have the same problem. I've been unable to reach him. Other people here seem to have received theirs though. I'm not sure what's wrong. If you hear from him, please post a message here about how to get in touch with him. I haven't been able to reach him through his 30below.com email address. On Jun 21, 2005, at 2:50 PM, steven stengel wrote: > Where is Roger Merchberger? I still haven't received > my HHC BASIC ROMs which I paid for. > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Discover Yahoo! > Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! > http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html > From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Tue Jun 21 14:30:51 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:30:51 +0200 Subject: Various books Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050621211019.025d2710@pop.xs4all.nl> Asking prices in euro's are between the (). If you have any questions dont hesitate to ask. - Apple IIc User's Guide by Lon Poole (5) - IBM System/36 Procedures and Commands Summary (6) - Analog Devices Databook Volume 1, Integrated Circuits (4) - Sharp PC-7200 MS-DOS Manual (3) - Programmer's Reference Guide to the TI-99/4A (4) - MicroSolutions Backpack Floppy Drive User's Guide (3) - Seikosha SP-180VC Owner's Manual (3) - Seikosha SL-80AI Owner's Manual (3) - Panasonic KX-P1081 Operating Instructions (3) - OKI Microline 290 Series Printer Handbook (3) - D-Link 10BASE-T Ethernet Installation Guide DE-100TP/DE-200TP/DE-300TP (2) - Acorn Electron Plus1 Expansion Unit User Guide (3) - Acorn Electron Brochure (3) - HP Motif 1.1 Information Manual (3) - HP Starbase Reference, HP9000 Computers (5) - Overview of VMS Documentation, for VMS 5.0 (3) - Installing and Using the VT320 Video Terminal, International Model (3) - VT300-Family Supporting Products Guide (3) - Apple Pascal Language Reference Manual (5) - IBM System/36 5363 System Unit Maintenance Information Manual (10) - IBM 7855 Modem Model 10 Guide to Operation (5) - IBM PC 3270 Emulation Program, Entry Level User's Guide (3) - IBM 5291 Models 1 and 2 Operator's Guide (4) - IBM 5291 Model 2 Display Station Maintenance Library (5) - HP 9144A User's Manual (4) - HP 7475A Operation and Interconnection Manual (5) - HP 7475A Interfacing and Programming Manual (4) - Hewlett-Packard 2930 Series Printers Owner's Manual (5) - HP 9144A Quick Reference Guide (2) - Datatrieve For Users Computer-Based Instruction (4) - The Century Computer Programming Course (4) - Guide to Installation of Tallgrass External Units (3) - Tallgrass BackTrack 2.xx User's Manual (3) - CP+ User's Guide (5) - Datapoint 8603 / 8605 Processor Manual (7) - ASE User's Manual release 0.9 (5) - Codex (Motorola) 2320/2340 Modem User's Manual (3) Thats it for now..... ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/sale.htm From news at computercollector.com Tue Jun 21 14:36:49 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:36:49 -0400 Subject: Jack Kilby has passed away. Message-ID: <200506211945.j5LJj5br012935@keith.ezwind.net> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=TMPBSXGZLW0Q QQSNDBESKHA?articleID=164901506 ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 750 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jun 21 15:10:01 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:10:01 -0500 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <1119370620.21157.6.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <000001c57585$90276c10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <42B764C0.6010304@compsys.to> <1119370620.21157.6.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <42B87419.20405@mdrconsult.com> David Holland wrote: > On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 20:52 -0400, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > > > >>At present, I am using Windows 98 SE (I realize that this >>is badly off topic, but I can't successfully use anything >>else with E11 to run my RT-11 programs). Does anyone >>have any success with a CD emulation program that will >>allow me to use a CD image file (an exact duplicate of >>the ISO image file of the CD which was used to burn the >>CD in the first place)? Are there both free and commercial >>versions? What are the advantages and the disadvantages? > > > (Both free) > > Linux: mount -o loop,ro /path/to/cdimage.iso /mntpoint > Or point the emulator at a 'dd' image file of the CD. > > Windows: DAEMON Tools. > > > The Linux command only tends to work with CD Images that are in ISO > format's, and contain a filesystem type Linux recognizes. In my experience it's just a filesystem issue. I've mounted and read both CD's and CD images that are not ISO9660 format. SGI's EFS install CDs are a good example. By the way, dd will make a valid image of almost any data CD or DVD, whether the filesystem is supported or not. You might have to juggle the block size, but that's the only issue I've ever had. I've successfully copied VMS CDs, AIX install and mkCD disks, Mac HFS CDs, etc. Doc From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 21 15:14:54 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:14:54 -0400 Subject: yellowed murky plastic References: Message-ID: <003501c5769d$ecbe88a0$1c7da418@game> I have a photocopier like that, you can see exactly where it was hit by the sun over time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 1:26 PM Subject: Re: yellowed murky plastic > On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Barry Watzman wrote: > > > The discoloration is caused by UV light exposure > > And exposure from Sun. I have many items that are discolored on one side, > where something was exposed to a window. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 21 15:18:30 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:18:30 -0400 Subject: my computers, status References: <200506211742.KAA14785@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <005201c5769e$6d4fbde0$1c7da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 1:42 PM Subject: Re: my computers, status > > Yes, Joe. That is close to what I remember :) > In Florida, when they say there is a 50% chance of rain, > they mean that 50% of the people will be rained on. > It doesn't have the same meaning as elsewhere. > Dwight > > Florida has funny weather. I used to go there allot for vacations when I was young. Here in Ohio when it rains it rains all over and the storms actually travels. In Florida I was outside watching it rain across the street for 15 minutes without moving in any direction, quite amusing. I also like how it can rain and the ground will be dry 15 minutes later. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jun 21 15:21:00 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:21:00 -0500 Subject: Speaking of VTSERVER.... In-Reply-To: <42B801A9.1050006@hachti.de> References: <42B74DA4.4070909@mdrconsult.com> <42B801A9.1050006@hachti.de> Message-ID: <42B876AC.8060401@mdrconsult.com> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I have used this one: > ftp://minnie.tuhs.org/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver/ > >> What's the status of vtserver v3? > > Don't know if there's another version. > This one works. I have added some debug output (because I had problems > with my 11's serial port). But that's unneccessary now. There's supposed to be a beta v3 around. The new features that most interest me are support for moving files >32MB and sending a clean BREAK. Doc From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 21 15:47:09 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:47:09 -0400 Subject: Anybody know what this DEc cable is for? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050621164709.00a3dc90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> It has a male connector on one end and a female on the other. The cards are marked FLIP-CHIP. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 21 16:15:01 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:15:01 -0400 Subject: Can anyone id these DEC PDP-8(?) cards? Also pictures on my PDP-8 cards Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050621171501.00a40590@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Here is a collection of cards that I found in various DEC PDP-8 chassis last week. Can anyone id them? Marked CESI and LPC8. I'm guessing that it's a line printer interface for the PDP-8. It has a 40 pin ribbon cable header on it. Made by Emulex and marked TU1110406 2A. Looks like some kind of tape controller to me. It has two 40 pin ribbon cable headers on it. The LH one is marked To TC01 or TC11 and the RH one is marked To Tape Deck. The rotary knobs on the lower RH edge select speeds of OFF, 125 ipc, 75 ips, 45 ips or 37.5/25 ips. This one has a symbol that looks like the National Semiconductor symbol but it has three lightning bolts instead of two. It also has the number 3021 6002 on it. The cables have been cut off so I have no idea what was on the other end of them. The only marking on this one is the number 140014. This card was made by XEBEC and has the number 01-100968 on it. It has two 50 pin ribbon cable headers on it. This card was made by Computer Idenitics Corp and says that it's an OTR-120 interface. (Optical Tape Reader?) The rest of the photo in the same directory are DEC cards for my PDP-8 with the exception of the Plessey RK-05 disk drive controller set (3 cards). BTW Thom is cleaning up and found 198 various disk cartridges yesterday. Many of them contain software, diagnostics and/or Operating Systems. If anyone needs any cartridges he's looking to sell all of them so give him a call. And yes, he does have some alignment packs, CE packs, etc but he'll want real money for them! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 21 15:50:00 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:50:00 -0400 Subject: ARE DEC "Cab-kits" worth anything? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050621165000.00a3fe40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I picked up a sack full of these last week. Thom says that they're valuable but I was just going to rob so parts out of them. If they're worth much I'll use them for trading material or E-bay them. if they're not worth much, I'll just pull the parts that I want and pitch the rest. Joe From bqt at Update.UU.SE Tue Jun 21 16:20:17 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:20:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: <200506211700.j5LH03bo039344@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506211700.j5LH03bo039344@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > Tony> I suppose you could include the Pro 325 and 350 (no I/D, F11 > Tony> chip) and the Pro 380 (split I/D, J11 chip). But those will not > Tony> run normal PDP11 software, the I/O is totally different I > Tony> believe. > > It certainly is -- different and very badly conceived. But then > again, Unibus and Q-bus are also different (though not by the same > magnitude). A number of OSs run on PROs -- RT, Unix, P/OS, perhaps > stock RSX as well. And the RSTS standalone initialization module will > boot on a PRO in V9.6, though OS support for it was never released... No, stock RSX will not run. But P/OS is more or less built from the same sources. There are some conditional stuff in the RSX sources for P/OS, and then you need device drivers... So yes, the PRO is different. Same CPU architecture, different I/O architecture. The Q-bus is actually similar enough to Unibus that many devices look same enough to share code between the buses. A few things differ, but few enough that you can conditionalize them, or even in some cases, let the OS hide that difference. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 21 16:27:33 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can anyone id these DEC PDP-8(?) cards? Message-ID: <20050621212733.AD5FF70CA319@bitsavers.org> http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/PDP-8%20cards/CESI%20LPC8.jpg third party line printer controller card http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/PDP-8%20cards/Emulex%20TU1110406.jpg phase encoding option for the Unibus TU11 controller http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/PDP-8%20cards/Emulex%20TU1110406.jpg part of a systems industries disc controller http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/PDP-8%20cards/PN%20140014.jpg probably a third party serial interface with 20ma output (note the opto isolators near the connector) From bqt at Update.UU.SE Tue Jun 21 16:31:02 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:31:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: How to tell... In-Reply-To: <200506211700.j5LH03bo039344@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506211700.j5LH03bo039344@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Johnny" == Johnny Billquist writes: > > Johnny> Mentec implemented one additional instruction that really is > Johnny> useful, and which atleast RSX will use, if it finds it, and > Johnny> that is a block copy instruction. I don't even know if it has > Johnny> a mnemonic. Moving large chunks of memory is something the > Johnny> systems does a lot in I/O, so that really helps if it can be > Johnny> done faster. > > Is that just the MOVC instruction (part of the CIS optional set) or > something else? If CIS is present, RSTS will use MOVC for block move > automatically. No, it's not the MOVC, but the MOVC would probably also be acceptable. RSX have a macro to define the instruction, called MOVR$ It takes three arguments, in the form of three registers. The opcode is 075abc a is source b is destination c is length all as registers. It copies the data according to this. RSX detects wether this instruction exists at boot time, and patches the system if it does, to take advantage of it. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 21 16:40:26 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ARE DEC "Cab-kits" worth anything? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050621165000.00a3fe40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 21, 2005 04:50:00 PM Message-ID: <200506212140.j5LLeQub000865@onyx.spiritone.com> > > I picked up a sack full of these > last week. Thom > says that they're valuable but I was just going to rob so parts out of > them. If they're worth much I'll use them for trading material or E-bay > them. if they're not worth much, I'll just pull the parts that I want and > pitch the rest. > > Joe > Yes, especially if you have more than just the MV II (which is what that looks to be) Cab Kit. Zane From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 21 16:41:11 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:41:11 -0400 Subject: When it rains, it pours! PDP-8 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050621174111.00a42210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> :-) From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jun 21 16:47:52 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:47:52 +0200 Subject: Ersatz-11 stop In-Reply-To: <17080.8917.902590.109338@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42B80AD7.5010107@hachti.de> <17080.8917.902590.109338@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42B88B08.7020303@hachti.de> > Control/P. Thanks, that's it :-) From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jun 21 16:57:39 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:57:39 +0200 Subject: Anybody know what this DEc cable is for? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050621164709.00a3dc90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050621164709.00a3dc90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42B88D53.70607@hachti.de> > It has a That looks a bit like the (bus) connector cables I have for my PDP8/L. And it looks like somebody has made a flexible "extender card" from it. I have a Flip-Chip extender card that looks like that - but without the cable in the middle.... From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 16:59:12 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:59:12 -0500 Subject: Can anyone id these DEC PDP-8(?) cards? Also pictures on my PDP-8 cards In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050621171501.00a40590@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050621171501.00a40590@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 6/21/05, Joe R. wrote: > This one > has a > symbol that looks like the National Semiconductor symbol but it has three > lightning bolts instead of two. It also has the number 3021 6002 on it. The > cables have been cut off so I have no idea what was on the other end of them. That logo is Systems Industries, a disk and tape interface manufacturer. I do not recognize the card, but it's possible that is an interface to a crate of SI hardware that would talk directly to one kind of disk or another. > This card > was made > by XEBEC and has the number 01-100968 on it. It has two 50 pin ribbon cable > headers on it. Xebec also made disk and tape interfaces. No idea what goes on the other end. -ethan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 21 17:13:03 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Heathkit HDOS source listings Message-ID: <200506212213.PAA14886@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Rich There is a separate mail group called sebhc that is specifically early Heathkit. It has a ftp that we have collected various images of HDOS and HUG disk as well as some documentation. I'm sure it would be great to have it sent there. There has been some recent discussion with some of the other authors of HDOS that also participate on that group that none of them have saved any of the source code. I am forwarding your message to that group as well. Dwight >From: "Richard Beaudry" > >Hello all, > >I recently acquired a 4-volume set of Heathkit HDOS source listings. >They are in assembly langage, printed out on May 16th, 1980. They >have nicely printed cover pages from Heathkit, and the rest appear to >be photocopies of greenbar paper listings. I haven't examined them >completely, but they appear to be intact, readable, and complete. The >command processor and BASIC interpreter are definitely there, and >there is a lot more as well... > >I'll post more details if anyone is interested. Also, I don't know if >these are archived anywhere. If not, is there interest in getting >these scanned and posted? If so, I'll move it to the top of the list. > Bear in mind it's at least a 6" high stack, double-side printed, so >"top of the stack" may still take a while to do... :-) > >I found some comments by a "J.G. Letwin". Perchance the same Letwin >of OS/2 fame? > >Thanks, >Rich B. > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 21 17:16:41 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:16:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ARE DEC "Cab-kits" worth anything? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050621165000.00a3fe40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050621165000.00a3fe40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200506212219.SAA01373@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I picked up a sack full of these > last week. > Thom says that they're valuable but I was just going to rob so parts > out of them. Eeek. I don't know how close to unobtainum they actually are, but I do know I'd cheerfully pay postage plus a bit for your trouble to lay hands on some. (I've got significantly more CPUs than I do cab kits, and while I have no immediate need for them, they're only going to get scarcer as time goes on.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From vrs at msn.com Tue Jun 21 17:22:06 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:22:06 -0700 Subject: Anybody know what this DEc cable is for? References: <3.0.6.32.20050621164709.00a3dc90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > It has a > male connector on one end and a female on the other. The cards are marked > FLIP-CHIP. Me :-)! It looks like a flexible extender card, to me. It would bring a single height card out of the back-plane so you can probe/debug it. Useful for older gear built out of Mxxx flip-chips. Vince From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jun 21 17:23:20 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:23:20 -0700 Subject: When it rains, it pours! PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050621174111.00a42210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050621174111.00a42210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200506211523.20854.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 21 June 2005 14:41, Joe R. wrote: > > > :-) Hey Joe, I could use one of the 11/34 programmer front panels as a spare for my system. If you have one that's clean (from the front a couple of them look pretty good - but I can't see the back ;-) Let me know your asking price. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Jun 21 17:27:34 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:27:34 +0100 Subject: TU58 emulator Message-ID: <012a01c576b0$6bf57fe0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> I've found that the TU58 emulator discussed above will not run under Windows NT - it will not even extract! It does extract under Win 98, and runs (and extracts) well under DOS 6.22 I'll let you know if it works with my 11/23+ tomorrow, I should at least be able to make an image of (part of) my XXDP disk, though it depends whether I can configure SLU2 (on the CPU board) as the TU58 port. Am I correct in thinking that XXDP(V2.3) will assign a DD drive number for the TU58? (it calls my RL02 DL0). Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jun 21 17:34:02 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:34:02 +0200 Subject: Aux Power Message-ID: <42B895DA.9050207@hachti.de> Hi people, on my PDP11/23+ there is that key called "AUX POWER". But it doesn't do anything on my machine. The only power switch is at the back of my machine. And there is an unused connector at the back of the front panel. From that little panel goes a cable to the back of the PDP which ends in an unused connector, too. Somebody said something about a power bus?? I have not found the posting... Does a fancy power switching (everything in the rack at once) system exist? If yes, what do I need to get my rack complete? Best regards, Philipp :-) From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 21 17:31:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TU58 emulator In-Reply-To: <012a01c576b0$6bf57fe0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Jim Beacon wrote: > I've found that the TU58 emulator discussed above will not run under Windows > NT - it will not even extract! It does extract under Win 98, and runs (and > extracts) well under DOS 6.22 I don't know why it wouldn't extract under NT, other than you have a bad tool. But at any rate, do NOT attempt to run this under Win 98, or for that matter NT. I'm not sure how NT handles the serial ports compared to Win 9x, but I wouldn't trust it anyway. Just run under real DOS so that your access to the serial ports is unhindered by POOR programming. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 21 17:39:51 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compaqs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050621152525.Y54881@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, chris wrote: > Northern NJ (Ridgewood, 07450). I don't have a Compaq Portable III. I > have what I believe is the ORIGINAL Compaq. Their luggable suitcase sized > thing with dual floppies, and 5 in screen in a nice luggable case. Compaq had several "suitcase"/"sewing machine" models. The "ORIGINAL" had an 8088 and two full height (Tandon TM100?) drives. The "Portable 286" had an 80286, but the outside of the case was the same except for name label. The "Portable 2" was a SLIGHTLY smaller suitcase, that was visibly different when next to an Original or Portable 286. I got rid of my "Original"s, and IF I sell at VCF this year, I guess that it is time to get rid of my Portable 286 and Portable 2. I'll put back the original screws, and might switch from EGA back to CGA, but won't do anything about the hole in the Portable 286 for 3.5" drive. Because none of my machines were acquired FOR COLLECTION, I have always freely made changes that "improved" them in MY view, such as replacing tapered screws into plastic with machine screws into nutserts, adding reset buttons, better handles, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Jun 21 17:57:00 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:57:00 +0100 Subject: TU58 emulator References: Message-ID: <013d01c576b4$8885fb40$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Jim Beacon wrote: > > > I've found that the TU58 emulator discussed above will not run under Windows > > NT - it will not even extract! It does extract under Win 98, and runs (and > > extracts) well under DOS 6.22 > > I don't know why it wouldn't extract under NT, other than you have a bad > tool. NT didn't recognise the self -extracting file format. >But at any rate, do NOT attempt to run this under Win 98, or for > that matter NT. I'm not sure how NT handles the serial ports compared to > Win 9x, but I wouldn't trust it anyway. Just run under real DOS so that > your access to the serial ports is unhindered by POOR programming. I'm going to run it on an old Compaq 486 that has been lying around here looking for a job, I've just put a fresh DOS installation on it, and installed the emulator. I was making images and learning how to drive the software. I'll take the machine to work with me tomorrow and hook it up to the 11/23. Jim. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 21 18:31:41 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:31:41 -0500 Subject: HP 2468 terminal docs? Message-ID: <003601c576b9$613cf7a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I thought someone had located docs for the 2468 or 2469 terminals (HP), but I don't see them over on bitsavers. Need pinouts, suggested wiring diagrams for both ext baud and int baud. I think there's some of this info in the BACI manual, I'll look there now. But I'd like a copy of the terminal manual if it's still floating around. Jay From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Jun 21 19:28:17 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:28:17 -0500 Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: References: <20050618231940.5c5140e4.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050621192817.1c28784f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > A somewhat 'crude' but simple thing you can try is to listen to the > > audiotape sound of the tape you created which you say was > > successful. Then listen audibly to the tapes you're trying to > > recover. If the pitch seems to match for the most part it isn't a > > speed problem. If you have an oscilloscope, look at the amplitude > > of the signal out of the cassette drive of the new 'working' tape > > and compare to the one you're trying to recover. > > As others have suggested, use the simplest tape player you can find. > Noise reduction circuits and other fancy technology will only cause > problems. > The 'fancy technology' I suggested was an oscilloscope. I don't see how just using the cheapest garage sale tape player you can find is a better technical approach than actually looking at the waveforms coming out of the various cheap-garage-sale tape players you've rounded up. Looking for clipping and comparing the pulsewidths of the signal on an accurate time base should clear up a lot. > > I haven't done this, but there are decent tools nowadays for what > > could be called 'high performance audio editing' that you can throw > > at the problem, if you use your sound card to digitize the audio to > > a WAV file. > > I use Cool Edit 2000 (much less expensive than full-bore Cool Edit, > > probably no longer available) for audio work. There are a LOT of > > powerful tools for fiddling with audio now that we have all the > > horsepower for DSP that a modern pee-cee provides. > > I recommened Total Recorder. It's inexpensive and the folks that > develop it are very nice. They've allowed me to upgrade to new > versions without any additional fee, and they're very responsive > through e-mail. I registered it years ago to use for recording VCF > talks but never used it. I recently started using it to digitize audio > tapes and find it very nice to use. Cool Edit has the feature of allowing you to 'zoom in' all the way to individual samples and 'rubber band edit' any individual sample you want. I've used it to edit out 'pops' in LP recordings. You can just grab the few offending samples in a 'pop' in the audio waveform and smooth them down to the waveform they're interfering with. It's the audio equivalent of a pixel-level bitmap editor. I have Total Recorder too, but have always thought of it as much more limited. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 19:27:51 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:27:51 -0700 Subject: HP 2468 terminal docs? In-Reply-To: <003601c576b9$613cf7a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <003601c576b9$613cf7a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e905062117272532edf@mail.gmail.com> On 6/21/05, Jay West wrote: > I thought someone had located docs for the 2468 or 2469 terminals (HP), but > I don't see them over on bitsavers. > > Need pinouts, suggested wiring diagrams for both ext baud and int baud. > Did you mean HP 2648, not 2468? I have a manual that covers 264x terminals and has some wiring diagrams for the comm boards. I could scan a few of the relevant pages. From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Jun 21 19:31:05 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:31:05 -0500 Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on (and submission for FAQ) In-Reply-To: <17078.52876.883480.454206@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42B48249.7070409@hachti.de> <20050618133946.R2336@localhost> <17078.52876.883480.454206@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050621193105.73d3d352.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:11:24 -0400 Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: > > Tom> * 99% anhydrous alcohol -- NOT drug-store alcohol. > > The usual substance is isopropyl alcohol (isopropanol). You didn't > mention that -- did you mean to suggest ethanol? I suppose that would > work, too. > > Note that anhydrous ethanol won't stay anhydrous very long; it will > quickly transform itself into 96% ethanol + 4% water. I'm not sure > how big a problem that would be. From vague memories, I think > isopropanol doesn't do that. > > Tom> * Disposable nylon gloves $? > > Nylon, as in woven nylon? I haven't seen those. Disposable vinyl > gloves are easy to find, I have a box sitting around the kitchen. > There are also latex gloves; that doesn't seem like a good idea > because those tend to have powder on them, and also because latex > isn't all that stable. > We wore white nylon gloves a lot more than we wanted to back when I was a COM operator producing Microfiche in the 80's. I suspect they're still readily available. Probably anybody who handles a lot of film would use them, i.e. the photograpy market. From dancohoe at oxford.net Tue Jun 21 19:36:02 2005 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:36:02 -0400 Subject: HP 2468 terminal docs? In-Reply-To: <003601c576b9$613cf7a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <00a601c576c2$5e7472b0$01fea8c0@wcruz> > I thought someone had located docs for the 2468 or 2469 > terminals (HP), but > I don't see them over on bitsavers. > > Need pinouts, suggested wiring diagrams for both ext baud and > int baud. > > I think there's some of this info in the BACI manual, I'll > look there now. > But I'd like a copy of the terminal manual if it's still > floating around. > > Jay I've just found two more copies for the 2648A so if Al doesn't have it already, I'll send him one. Dan -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.9/23 - Release Date: 20/06/2005 From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 21 19:33:22 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TU58 emulator In-Reply-To: <013d01c576b4$8885fb40$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Jim Beacon wrote: > I'm going to run it on an old Compaq 486 that has been lying around here > looking for a job, I've just put a fresh DOS installation on it, and > installed the emulator. I was making images and learning how to drive the > software. I'll take the machine to work with me tomorrow and hook it up to > the 11/23. It helps to run it in debug level 2, -d2 on the command line where. It gives nice feedback so you know things are working right. Use the RTDSK utility (included in the RT11ARC.EXE self-extracting ZIP) to create blank RT11 images. It's rather simple to use. rtdsk disk_image_file [-i[]] [-s] [-f#] [-v{bdm}] [-{abdrx}filename] So to create an RX02 image: rtdsk img-name.dsk -iDY: This will create an image file that is equivalent in the number of blocks to an RX02 formatted floppy. You can also use DD:, DX:, DL: or DZ: for respective image sizes. More information is available in the readme: http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/rt11arc.txt And then of course, also download PUTR.COM from bit.com to manipulate the files inside the image: http://www.dbit.com/demo.html -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 21 19:40:40 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:40:40 -0400 Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on (and submission for FAQ) References: <42B48249.7070409@hachti.de> <20050618133946.R2336@localhost> <17078.52876.883480.454206@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050621193105.73d3d352.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <17080.45960.854746.493739@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Scott" == Scott Stevens writes: Tom> * Disposable nylon gloves $? >> Nylon, as in woven nylon? I haven't seen those. Disposable vinyl >> gloves are easy to find, I have a box sitting around the kitchen. >> There are also latex gloves; that doesn't seem like a good idea >> because those tend to have powder on them, and also because latex >> isn't all that stable. >> Scott> We wore white nylon gloves a lot more than we wanted to back Scott> when I was a COM operator producing Microfiche in the 80's. I Scott> suspect they're still readily available. Probably anybody who Scott> handles a lot of film would use them, i.e. the photograpy Scott> market. They might also appear in gunsmithing (to avoid messing up that nice blueing job). Brownells doesn't mention nylon, but it shows "polishing gloves" made of cotton. paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 17:53:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:53:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: <0IIF0026107BT1H0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Jun 20, 5 11:26:01 pm Message-ID: > Of the PDP-11 OSs RT-11 has the fewest requirements to run. I thought XXDP+ required even less (it doesn't use interrupts if it can avoid them, for example). The argument being that an OS designed to load diagnostics should run even on partially defective hardware. Now whether you class XXDP+ as an OS is another matter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 17:58:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:58:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 20, 5 11:55:08 pm Message-ID: > Also... does anyone know about the differences between 4116 and 4164 > chips enough to answer the question if one could use 4164s as long as > one a) prevents the non-TTL supplies from reaching the chips (modify What you need to do is isolate pins 1 and 8 from the board and reconnect pin 8 to +5V IIRC 4116 4164 1 -5V N/C 8 +12V +5V 9 +5V A7 That leaves the extra address line tied high, so you only use 1/4 of the chip > board, modify sockets, modify pins...) and b) possibly tie up or tie > down the extra multiplexed address input. Can you refresh 1/4 of a > 4164 and have just that part stay refreshed? I ask because I have a There were 2 types of 64K DRAM. One of them used 7 bit refresh (same as the 4116, on the same pins), the other, older/rarer one need all 8 address lines to be used for the refresh (this was a royal pain on Z80-based machines, where the CPU provides a 7 bit refresh only). I have personally replaced the odd 4116 with a 4164 as I've just described and had no problems. Maybe I've been lucky in finding 7-bit refresh chips (which are the more common type), maybe it works anyway. > serious wad of new 4164s from COMBOARD stock, but 128Kw of 4116s (8 x > 12) is more than I have lying around. > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 18:04:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:04:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 21, 5 08:26:35 am Message-ID: > > > How do you remove paint from plastic without damaging the plastic > > itself? Strikes me as being a bit different to getting paint off metal > > or wood, where chemicals aren't going to damage the underlying > > surface... > > Some of the new environmentally safe strippers are pretty safe for > plastic. That strikes me as being a pretty meaningless statement!. There are dozens of different plastics, what is safe for one may not be safe for another (as a trivial example, propanone (acetone) attacks many common plastics, but AFAIK it doesn't attack PTFE). There is a second problem, though. The stripper may appear safe when you use it, but may cause chemical changes in the plastic that make it go very brittle, or something like that. I've seen a similar effect with mineral oils on certain plastics. Seems OK for a bit, then it all starts to fall apart. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 18:05:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:05:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: <17080.6664.906000.541309@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Jun 21, 5 09:45:44 am Message-ID: > Sure. And if you're going there, there are also the PDT110, 130 and > 150 (non/ID I assume, but I'm not sure what's inside). IIRC it's the same CPU chipset as in the 11/03 (I can't remember the name), and has no MMU (and therefore no split I/D) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 18:10:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:10:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: <17080.7726.976000.933067@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Jun 21, 5 10:03:26 am Message-ID: > > >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > Tony> I suppose you could include the Pro 325 and 350 (no I/D, F11 > Tony> chip) and the Pro 380 (split I/D, J11 chip). But those will not > Tony> run normal PDP11 software, the I/O is totally different I > Tony> believe. > > It certainly is -- different and very badly conceived. But then > again, Unibus and Q-bus are also different (though not by the same Unibus and Qbus are actually quite similar, to the extent that devices for either bus generally look the same to the software (the DL11 and DLV11 serial ports have the same registers, same bit allocations, ditto for the RK11 and RKV11 etc...). The logical ideas behind the bus -- the types of bus cycle, the signals used, etc are also pretty similar. The only issue comes if you get into 22 bit addressing, Qbus devices that do DMA have 22 bit address registers, Unibus ones have 18 bit address registers and the address goes via the Unibus Map to turn it into a 22 bit address. DEC sold a Unibus -> Qbus adapter (it requires that the CPU, or more specifically the arbiter is on the Unibus side), the DW11-B that seems to work well (I have had mo problems hanging any Q-bus device off my 11/45 using it). I believe there were 3rd party boards that went the other way. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 18:14:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:14:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? In-Reply-To: <42B82F11.5060809@srv.net> from "Kevin Handy" at Jun 21, 5 09:15:29 am Message-ID: > But you normally don't want to connect frame grounds > (pin 1 on RS-232 cables iirc). You sometimes get an > amazing amount of current through the cables, even > enough to melt them. In a lot of cases -- certainly on DEC machines -- signal ground is connected to frame ground internally. If a frame ground interconenction passes enough current to melt the wire, then you've got significant voltage difference between the 2 machines. That is a major safety problem if the 2 machines are close enough that you can touch them. For %deity's sake sort out the wiring before somebody gets killed. If the 2 machines are far apart -- like in separate buildings, then you should really be using some kind of isolated connection (either transformer isolated or opto isolated) to avoid such problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 18:23:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:23:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement , now Philips In-Reply-To: <52712F7F-E27E-11D9-8363-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Jun 21, 5 08:00:16 pm Message-ID: > In my workplace they used Philips ( one l please , not two...) P856 and > P857 > 16 bit minicomputers to test watch IC's. All these minis were dumped, > I rescued just one , plus some spare boards to keep it running. > No software could be found to for them. I got some 8" floppies with my P851 and P854 machines, at least one of which is claimed to be an OS boot disk. I've not done anything with them yet, but they are safe. A fried wrote a monitor program from the P850, which loads from paper tape. I should still have the source and binary around. I would have to ask him what the copyright situation is, but I can't believe he would object to another enthusiast running it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 18:27:05 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:27:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: <42B8598A.7060605@srv.net> from "Kevin Handy" at Jun 21, 5 12:16:42 pm Message-ID: > And cigarette smoke. I've "fixed" several "dim" terminals Or just general dirt.... See below for an embarassing story from a non-smoking environment.... > with the liberal use of 409 (a cleaner). It's amazing how thick > the gunk can get. OK, the embarassing stroy. When I was at Bristol, I had a VT102 on my bench. The display contrast and brightness were falling off, and it got to the point where it was only marginally readable. I got out the printset (with my hand-drawn diagram for the later video board..), started checking volages. All looked fine. Looked at the waveforms round the video amplifier, looked fine. Plenty of beam current too.... After well over an hour of checking signals and getting nowhere, I cleaned the screen.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 18:29:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:29:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 21, 5 11:52:04 am Message-ID: > I tend to refer to things in nature as first person proper names. It > makes them more friendly and personal. More people should do this. I'm going to give names to all the ICs ever made. It'll hopefully make them more friendly and then maybe my designs will start working. More people should give components personal names. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 18:39:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:39:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Aux Power In-Reply-To: <42B895DA.9050207@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Jun 22, 5 00:34:02 am Message-ID: > > Hi people, > > on my PDP11/23+ there is that key called "AUX POWER". But it doesn't do > anything on my machine. The only power switch is at the back of my > machine. And there is an unused connector at the back of the front > panel. From that little panel goes a cable to the back of the PDP which > ends in an unused connector, too. > > Somebody said something about a power bus?? I have not found the posting... > > Does a fancy power switching (everything in the rack at once) system > exist? If yes, what do I need to get my rack complete? There is a power bus, it used 3 pin mate-n-lock connectors with the 3 pins being groond-for-on, and ground-for-off (with the 'off' taking priority over the 'on'). The idea was that the system on/off switch would be wired between ground and ground-for-on (so that said switch would control the enitre system) and overheating-protection thermal switches would be connected between ground and ground-for-off (so that if anything got too hot, the whole lot would get powered down). What uyou need is a 'power controller'. There were many types, the 861, the 872, etc. They are all pretty similar to use. Each one came in 115V and 230V versions (and had the appropriate type of US mains sockets on it, obviously there were internal changes too). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 19:35:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:35:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on (and submission for FAQ) In-Reply-To: <20050621193105.73d3d352.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jun 21, 5 07:31:05 pm Message-ID: > We wore white nylon gloves a lot more than we wanted to back when I was > a COM operator producing Microfiche in the 80's. I suspect they're > still readily available. Probably anybody who handles a lot of film > would use them, i.e. the photograpy market. You cna get white film-handling gloves (which I thought were cotton) from Jessops in the UK (that's a common high-street photographic shop). Any halfway-decent photographic shop, the sort of place that sells chemcials and paper for home processing, etc, would have them, I think. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 19:38:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:38:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: <20050621192817.1c28784f.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jun 21, 5 07:28:17 pm Message-ID: > > > A somewhat 'crude' but simple thing you can try is to listen to the > > > audiotape sound of the tape you created which you say was > > > successful. Then listen audibly to the tapes you're trying to > > > recover. If the pitch seems to match for the most part it isn't a > > > speed problem. If you have an oscilloscope, look at the amplitude > > > of the signal out of the cassette drive of the new 'working' tape > > > and compare to the one you're trying to recover. > > > > As others have suggested, use the simplest tape player you can find. > > Noise reduction circuits and other fancy technology will only cause > > problems. > > > > The 'fancy technology' I suggested was an oscilloscope. I don't see how I think you've misunderstood the message. I think Sellam was refering to 'fancy technology' inside the tape player -- things like noise reduction circuits. You want a player without anything like that. > just using the cheapest garage sale tape player you can find is a better > technical approach than actually looking at the waveforms coming out of > the various cheap-garage-sale tape players you've rounded up. Looking > for clipping and comparing the pulsewidths of the signal on an accurate > time base should clear up a lot. I would agree that looking at the signal (and looking at the signal 'as far into the computer as possible' on machines where it's not all hidden inside a ULA -- for example the output of the comparator that produces a TTL-level signal) is well worth doing. It's much easier to put things right when you have evidence as to what's wrong! -tony From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 21 19:55:20 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:55:20 -0400 Subject: yellowed murky plastic References: Message-ID: <17080.46840.946168.266449@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> > How do you remove paint from plastic without damaging the >> plastic > itself? Strikes me as being a bit different to getting >> paint off metal > or wood, where chemicals aren't going to damage >> the underlying > surface... >> >> Some of the new environmentally safe strippers are pretty safe for >> plastic. Tony> That strikes me as being a pretty meaningless statement!. There Tony> are dozens of different plastics, what is safe for one may not Tony> be safe for another (as a trivial example, propanone (acetone) Tony> attacks many common plastics, but AFAIK it doesn't attack Tony> PTFE). I don't think anything short of molten sodium or fluorine gas bothers PTFE. There are other surprises. Ethanol (plain old alcohol) is a rather mild solvent that bothers very few things. But it wrecks plexiglas (lucite). paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 21 19:58:08 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:58:08 -0400 Subject: VTSERVER booting References: <17080.7726.976000.933067@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17080.47008.238186.684497@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> Tony> I suppose you could include the Pro 325 and 350 (no I/D, F11 Tony> chip) and the Pro 380 (split I/D, J11 chip). But those will not Tony> run normal PDP11 software, the I/O is totally different I Tony> believe. >> It certainly is -- different and very badly conceived. But then >> again, Unibus and Q-bus are also different (though not by the same Tony> Unibus and Qbus are actually quite similar, to the extent that Tony> devices for either bus generally look the same to the software Tony> (the DL11 and DLV11 serial ports have the same registers, same Tony> bit allocations, ... True. Bad analogy. The "CT bus" (what you find in a PRO) is about as different from Unibus/Qbus as the ISA bus, only uglier yet. The truly bizarre thing is that there are hints of DMA capability in the books, but no actual PRO I/O device does DMA -- not even the hard drive controller or the ethernet card. That's one of the many strikes against it... paul From tponsford at theriver.com Tue Jun 21 20:09:07 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:09:07 -0700 Subject: Another M68K Qbus cpu! Message-ID: <42B8BA33.8010007@theriver.com> A good day at the auction!. I picked up a 11/73 in a BA11-S chassis and a couple of IBM 5150's that I mainly want for the MFM hard drives I also picked up another M68K qbus cpu in a BA11-MA chassis. This one also has the eprom for the MACSBUG firmware monitor. Thanks to the IS pdf on AL Kossow's site I know, with the unix eproms, these are capable of booting a M68K version of 4.3BSD. (providing of course I could find a copy of the OS or even compile the source). But what OS can these boards run with the MACSBUG firmware? I now have two of these boards but I have yet to find out what OS they run? Anybody know?? These machines were probably used for lab equipment as they also have an Extrel sticker on the cpu and an unknown Extrel branded qbus board with two 20 pin connectors, There is very little printed on the Extrel Qbus board for identification, my guess is that they are some sort of serial board, an i/o board or even a floppy disk controller, but the lack of any identifiable controller chip make it hard..any guesses?? Cheers Tom From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Tue Jun 21 20:06:14 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <200506212023.j5LKMt7e042417@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506212023.j5LKMt7e042417@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <27113.207.71.246.177.1119402374.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> Hi, I just acquired a few IBM POWERstation 370 in unknown condition. I can probably make a couple good units out of the 4 I have - they have disks, memory, etc, were decommissioned from a university environment. I also have a diagnostics set of a cdrom labeled "POWERstation / POWERserver Diagnostics v4.1.5" and a floppy labeled "POWERstation / POWERserver High Capacity (2M byte) Diagnostics Test Diskette", and an external plextor cdrom to use to install software. Right now, since I don't have an AIX 4.3.3 (last supported) install cdrom set, I just want to get a machine powered up and tested. I don't have a 13W3 monitor, nor keyboard or mouse (which I think are non-standard). So, first question is: I plugged up a standard null modem cable to the first serial port, took out the video card, powered up (with nothing in the drives) and saw: nothing. Do I have to make a special cable, or reset the firmware, or something? Also, how does IBM deal with licensing AIX - is it tied to the machine, so if I get a media kit I'm ok to install it? Or did I just buy some boat anchors? Thanks for any info, Jeff Davis From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Tue Jun 21 20:11:59 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <200506212023.j5LKMt7e042417@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506212023.j5LKMt7e042417@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <27162.207.71.246.177.1119402719.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> To pre-answer one question: no, I didn't get any operator keys for the boxes. Are they difficult / expensive to find? If so, I'll go back on thursday and dig thru the storage bins I found the machines in and look for a key... Jeff From cb at mythtech.net Tue Jun 21 20:31:52 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:31:52 -0400 Subject: Compaqs Message-ID: >The "ORIGINAL" had an 8088 and two full height (Tandon TM100?) drives. That would describe mine. I thought it was an 8086, but 8088 wouldn't surprise me (I know it is NOT a 286). I should also have the manuals and original software for it somewhere. It should be a reasonably complete original machine provided I can dig up all the parts (I just saw it this morning in storage, and it has the keyboard/cover, which I thought I had lost on that one... so the physical machine is complete) -chris From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jun 21 20:32:28 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:32:28 -0500 Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <27162.207.71.246.177.1119402719.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> References: <200506212023.j5LKMt7e042417@dewey.classiccmp.org> <27162.207.71.246.177.1119402719.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> Message-ID: <42B8BFAC.80502@mdrconsult.com> Jeff Davis wrote: > To pre-answer one question: no, I didn't get any operator keys for the boxes. > Are they difficult / expensive to find? If so, I'll go back on thursday and > dig thru the storage bins I found the machines in and look for a key... mknod /dev/big_screwdriver The keys are possibly available from IBM with the machine's serial number, IFF you can find the person who knows how to order it. In other words, fat chance. That's a Schlage lock, and non-trivial to pick, or even to break. You need the three-position switch, or a replacement, anyway. I have been successful at unscrewing the 3 thumbscrews at the back of the machine and *gently* levering the front edge of the "lid" up enough to clear the lock tab. Pretty easy to disassemble the barrel from there, and if you look carefully at the lock barrel itself, that brass strip running the length of the barrel holds the pins in. I've also resorted to a 3/8" carbide bit a couple of times when I was in a bad mood. That *always* works. Re the software, IBM released 4.3.2 and 4.3.3 for the price of the media for non-commercial use. It was damn nigh impossible to order it, but it was available. I did finally get a copy for $50, after ~18 hours on the phone with AIX Sales Group and the signing of a 17-page license contract that boiled down to "I realize I don't own nothing here and I'm not allowed to do nothing with it". In any case, IBM's unwritten rule concerning AIX is that the more folks there are who play with it, the more folks there will be who tell their boss to buy it. If it's not running in a business and you don't make a lot of noise about it, they won't send the BSA after you. I'm not sure, but I think v5.0 and v5.1 will run on that box, in a very leisurely fashion. v4.3.3 is your best bet. Doc From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 21 16:38:22 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:38:22 +0000 Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: References: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 21, 5 08:26:35 am Message-ID: <20050622013541.VVZN19894.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > There is a second problem, though. The stripper may appear safe when you > use it, but may cause chemical changes in the plastic that make it go > very brittle, or something like that. I've seen a similar effect with > mineral oils on certain plastics. Seems OK for a bit, then it all starts > to fall apart. > > -tony Tony is correct, I have a plastic bus pass, it is color printed of face with name under it printed on it and two blank areas for monthly stickers to paste on. Well, one day I tried more harsher chemicals (actone and oils) to get the gummy ickies off. Actone attacked the prints, and eventually card started to warp and crack. So I have to handle it gingerly till after vacation then I'll replace it. Alochol, ammonia, normal all the way strong soaps is least harsh to most plastics. I just washed a plastic window (smoker's stained) for a cd player in warm water and hand soap, came out like new, no new scratches too! Much easier too. Cheers, Wizard From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 21 20:42:36 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <27113.207.71.246.177.1119402374.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> from Jeff Davis at "Jun 21, 5 06:06:14 pm" Message-ID: <200506220142.SAA14094@floodgap.com> > Also, how does IBM deal with licensing AIX - is it tied to the machine, so if > I get a media kit I'm ok to install it? Or did I just buy some boat anchors? Last I checked, owning the machine was considered an implied license, unless this has changed (or I'm totally mistaken). I run AIX on Apple Network Servers myself, which is a somewhat obscure pursuit. :) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Nothing recedes like success. -- Walter Winchell --------------------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 21 20:47:51 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:47:51 -0700 Subject: HP 2468 terminal docs? Message-ID: <42B8C347.7050800@bitsavers.org> I've just found two more copies for the 2648A so if Al doesn't have it already, I'll send him one. -- I have a bunch of hp terminal manuals scanned. will bump the 2648 up in the queue. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 21 20:57:42 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:57:42 -0700 Subject: HP "ET" 2624A terminal in NM on eBay Message-ID: <42B8C596.7090000@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5210346468 $25 but absurd shipping ($100) From KParker at workcover.com Tue Jun 21 20:58:52 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:28:52 +0930 Subject: Inventor who kicked off computer revolution dies Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C14F@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> This appeared in my twice daily feed of ABC News. My appreciation to ABC news for the story +++++++++++++++++++++++ *Inventor who kicked off computer revolution dies* Jack Kilby, the inventor of the integrated circuit which provided the basis of the computer chip revolution, has died of cancer. Mr Kilby, 81, made the discovery 47 years ago, when, as a recently hired engineer at Texas Instruments, he was left to work alone in a laboratory while most of his 7,500 colleagues were taking a company-wide summer holiday. As a newly hired employee, Mr Kilby did not qualify to take a holiday in August 1958. "It was a very quiet time and he got a lot done," said Pat Weber, 65, a long-time colleague and friend of Mr Kilby, who retired as vice chairman of the Dallas-based Texas Instruments in 1998. The company announced his death on Tuesday. Mr Kilby, a seminal 20th century inventor whom many place in the same league as Henry Ford and the Wright Brothers, won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 2000 for his work. By hand-wiring together multiple transistors, Mr Kilby's invention - about half the size of a paper clip - spawned a revolution in miniaturisation in which millions of circuits are now housed on tiny pieces of silicon used in devices from computers to elevators to pacemakers. Working in parallel at pioneering Silicon Valley company Fairchild Semiconductor, Mr Kilby's rival Bob Noyce sketched out his own ideas for an integrated circuit in an engineering notebook - then forgot about it, according to a new biography of Mr Noyce's life. Mr Kilby, on the other hand, immediately recognised the value of his invention and built a working prototype in a matter of days, according to associates at Texas Instruments. Mr Kilby and Texas Instruments were first to patent the integrated circuit. Mr Noyce, who later co-founded Intel Corp, and Fairchild Semiconductor are credited with making the integrated circuit manufacturable on a mass production basis. While the competition sparked a 25-year patent battle between the companies over royalties from the invention, the "Kilby patent" weathered all legal challenges. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From news at computercollector.com Tue Jun 21 21:03:37 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:03:37 -0400 Subject: Inventor who kicked off computer revolution dies In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C14F@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <200506220211.j5M2BgTf016420@keith.ezwind.net> Already posted here six and a half hours ago... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Parker, Kevin Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 9:59 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Inventor who kicked off computer revolution dies This appeared in my twice daily feed of ABC News. My appreciation to ABC news for the story +++++++++++++++++++++++ *Inventor who kicked off computer revolution dies* Jack Kilby, the inventor of the integrated circuit which provided the basis of the computer chip revolution, has died of cancer. Mr Kilby, 81, made the discovery 47 years ago, when, as a recently hired engineer at Texas Instruments, he was left to work alone in a laboratory while most of his 7,500 colleagues were taking a company-wide summer holiday. As a newly hired employee, Mr Kilby did not qualify to take a holiday in August 1958. "It was a very quiet time and he got a lot done," said Pat Weber, 65, a long-time colleague and friend of Mr Kilby, who retired as vice chairman of the Dallas-based Texas Instruments in 1998. The company announced his death on Tuesday. Mr Kilby, a seminal 20th century inventor whom many place in the same league as Henry Ford and the Wright Brothers, won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 2000 for his work. By hand-wiring together multiple transistors, Mr Kilby's invention - about half the size of a paper clip - spawned a revolution in miniaturisation in which millions of circuits are now housed on tiny pieces of silicon used in devices from computers to elevators to pacemakers. Working in parallel at pioneering Silicon Valley company Fairchild Semiconductor, Mr Kilby's rival Bob Noyce sketched out his own ideas for an integrated circuit in an engineering notebook - then forgot about it, according to a new biography of Mr Noyce's life. Mr Kilby, on the other hand, immediately recognised the value of his invention and built a working prototype in a matter of days, according to associates at Texas Instruments. Mr Kilby and Texas Instruments were first to patent the integrated circuit. Mr Noyce, who later co-founded Intel Corp, and Fairchild Semiconductor are credited with making the integrated circuit manufacturable on a mass production basis. While the competition sparked a 25-year patent battle between the companies over royalties from the invention, the "Kilby patent" weathered all legal challenges. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 21 21:06:07 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on (and submission for FAQ) In-Reply-To: <20050621193105.73d3d352.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <42B48249.7070409@hachti.de> <20050618133946.R2336@localhost> <17078.52876.883480.454206@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050621193105.73d3d352.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050621190143.Q62142@shell.lmi.net> > > The usual substance is isopropyl alcohol (isopropanol). You didn't > > mention that -- did you mean to suggest ethanol? I suppose that would > > work, too. 190 proof ethanol (the HIGHER grade of Everclear) works very well, and seems to leave less residue than isopropyl. On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > We wore white nylon gloves a lot more than we wanted to back when I was > a COM operator producing Microfiche in the 80's. I suspect they're > still readily available. Probably anybody who handles a lot of film > would use them, i.e. the photograpy market. In my day, it was COTTON. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 21 21:10:33 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:10:33 -0500 Subject: HP "ET" 2624A terminal in NM on eBay References: <42B8C596.7090000@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <016701c576cf$92664190$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5210346468 > > $25 but absurd shipping ($100) > I would love that, and I'd be happy to pay $25, but $100 for shipping? No way! So, any collectors in NM that could pick it up for me and ship cheaper? :> Jay From news at computercollector.com Tue Jun 21 23:33:21 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:33:21 -0400 Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... Message-ID: <200506220440.j5M4eqiQ017262@keith.ezwind.net> I'm sure this has happened to other people here, but it never happened to me before, and it ticks me off. Someone posted an eBay ad for this vintage handheld and blatantly copied 680 words of my work into the "more information" part of the item's description. Above that part, they also stole extensively (some text and the top photo) from the site www.datamath.org, but at least the jerk includes that link... There is no credit for my work at all. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5783764229 Having said that, it's an excellent price. I would bid up to $50-$75 for this if I didn't already have one. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 750 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jun 21 23:59:10 2005 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:59:10 EDT Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... Message-ID: <1d7.3f004a9d.2fea4a1e@aol.com> In a message dated 6/22/2005 12:34:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, news at computercollector.com writes: I'm sure this has happened to other people here, but it never happened to me before, and it ticks me off. Someone posted an eBay ad for this vintage handheld and blatantly copied 680 words of my work into the "more information" part of the item's description. Above that part, they also stole extensively (some text and the top photo) from the site www.datamath.org, but at least the jerk includes that link... There is no credit for my work at all. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5783764229 Having said that, it's an excellent price. I would bid up to $50-$75 for this if I didn't already have one. ----------------------------------------- I had that happen to me. I was just looking at stuff, and noticed some familiar sounding text related to a computer for sale, a PS/2 I think. I asked the seller a question and told him I knew what he did and that I demand the text either removed or attributed to me. He complied and said he would not do it anymore. Never had any other issue beyond that. From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jun 22 00:13:29 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:13:29 +0200 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? Message-ID: <42B8F379.30907@hachti.de> Hi, after several cleaning orgies, my SMD disk (AMPEX DFR-996, see other posting) seems to start working. Now I want to backup the data contained on the disks. These are RSX-11 volumes. I cannot read them under RT11. And I don't know if I can make a diskette RSX-11 to inspect the data. Or is there a preogram which runs on rt11 and is able to understand rsx11 filesystem? That would be great! My first idea for the backup was "copy/device dm0: tt:" which works. But there is no error correction and still only 19200 baud. So tell me, what are the really cool methods to transfer data between a PC and a real PDP11 at a reasonable speed? SCSI controller and SCSI disk? Something else? Ethernet? Or is a backup over serial line a normal thing...? Regards, Philipp :-) From joe at barrera.org Wed Jun 22 00:15:03 2005 From: joe at barrera.org (Joe Barrera) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:15:03 -0700 Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... In-Reply-To: <1d7.3f004a9d.2fea4a1e@aol.com> References: <1d7.3f004a9d.2fea4a1e@aol.com> Message-ID: <42B8F3D7.5010602@barrera.org> SUPRDAVE at aol.com wrote: > I had that happen to me. I was just looking at stuff, and noticed > some familiar sounding text related to a computer for sale, a PS/2 I > think. I asked the seller a question and told him I knew what he did > and that I demand the text either removed or attributed to me. He > complied and said he would not do it anymore. Never had any other > issue beyond that. I think these sellers find stuff on the web (yours), and view it as authoritative text that somehow created itself, and never think about the personal effort involved in researching and writing it. If you've ever tried to teach students the importance of attribution, you'll know how difficult it is to get people to understand that their sources are not pure knowledge crystallized from the heavens, but rather someone's concrete effort. I know I'm not phrasing this well, but I'm trying to say it's ignorance, not malice, that leads to not acknowledging sources. And that's probably why education, in the form of telling each infringer why they need to credit their sources, works more than you'd think. Most people get it, once it's been explained to them. - Joe From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 22 01:39:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... In-Reply-To: <200506220440.j5M4eqiQ017262@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > I'm sure this has happened to other people here, but it never happened to me > before, and it ticks me off. Someone posted an eBay ad for this vintage > handheld and blatantly copied 680 words of my work into the "more > information" part of the item's description. Above that part, they also > stole extensively (some text and the top photo) from the site > www.datamath.org, but at least the jerk includes that link... There is no > credit for my work at all. You should be flattered. You've "arrived" :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vp at cs.drexel.edu Wed Jun 22 03:09:31 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 04:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: unreadable HP cartridges Message-ID: <20050622080931.9C2243BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> If you recall there was a discussion about tape catridges that could not be read because their coating was falling off. I was thinking, what if we reverse the tape, so that the magnetic head come in contact with the plastic backing and not the oxide. Would it be possible to read the data then? Obviously I am talking about a one-off operation, just to get the stuff off the tape. **vp From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Jun 22 03:14:29 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:14:29 +0200 (MEST) Subject: VTSERVER booting In-Reply-To: <17080.47008.238186.684497@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > True. Bad analogy. The "CT bus" (what you find in a PRO) is about as > different from Unibus/Qbus as the ISA bus, only uglier yet. > > The truly bizarre thing is that there are hints of DMA capability in > the books, but no actual PRO I/O device does DMA -- not even the hard > drive controller or the ethernet card. That's one of the many strikes > against it... So far, I believe that's caused by the periphs of the system, not the system (or bus) itself. I can't see any reason why DMA, as is "advertised", indeed, would not work. Once I'm done with Ultrix on it, I probably will check with my hardware buddies and see if we can do some CTI boards- for the heck of it. --f From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 22 03:31:08 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:31:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Aux Power In-Reply-To: Philipp Hachtmann "Aux Power" (Jun 22, 0:34) References: <42B895DA.9050207@hachti.de> Message-ID: <10506220931.ZM29876@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 22 2005, 0:34, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi people, > > on my PDP11/23+ there is that key called "AUX POWER". But it doesn't do > anything on my machine. The only power switch is at the back of my > machine. And there is an unused connector at the back of the front > panel. From that little panel goes a cable to the back of the PDP which > ends in an unused connector, too. > > Somebody said something about a power bus?? I have not found the posting... > > Does a fancy power switching (everything in the rack at once) system > exist? If yes, what do I need to get my rack complete? As Tony has already said, yes there's a power-switching bus, using 3-core cables terminated in 3-pin AMP Mate-N-Lock connectors. The control part is in the 861 (or equivalent) power controller and consists of a small circuit board that drives a contactor (like a 3-pole power relay). Those controllers are 19" wide rack-mount units, usually 2U or 3U high. The "AUX" switch on the front of your 11/23+ can be used for this, but there are some jumpers on the panel that ought to be changed - or at least checked - if you do, because that AUX switch is also used to switch the LTC on and off. You should be able to find the printset for the front panel and see what the cables and jumpers do. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 22 03:42:36 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:42:36 -0700 Subject: HP 2468 terminal docs? Message-ID: <75063904bf54271a975d27716fb9be5d@bitsavers.org> > I'd like a copy of the terminal manual if it's still floating around. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/terminal/02648-90002_ref_Aug79.pdf From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jun 22 06:32:16 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:32:16 +0100 Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B94C40.10708@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> >>Tony, you have to have a consistent story on this one. You don't have >>$100 to buy a used but usable PC for the times that one is needed, but > > > You know full well that $100 is by no means the total cost of ownership > for that PC for the length of time I'll want to be using it. > OK, so you've got the running costs. Let's just look at that: ... about 200 watts, less a bit for the hifi amp and mixer that are currently running. Say 120-150 watts for a Duron 1100 and a 19" monitor, that is run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Probably about as much power as the cooling fans alone in my PDP11 rack. Not really a lot, is it? Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jun 22 06:44:07 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:44:07 +0100 Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B94F07.3080008@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>harddrives go up on me (Admittingly, IBM DEATHSTARTS), one >>motherboard that ate ram for Breakfast! > > > Now, you see, I'd have wanted to figure out what was wrong with said > motherboard _before_ it damaged more than one set of RAMs. Hang on though, a motherboard is a cheap(-ish) off-the-shelf component. What do you do if a bearing goes bad? Do you buy a new bearing, or do you build up the track with weld, grind it back, and have it hard chromed? Me, I keep an SKF catalogue handy... >>I understand the urges to be able to repair your equipment, >>but dosn't it stop somewhere? :) > > > I guess it does. I don't -- yet -- haev a clean room to repair > winchester-type hard drives. Although I have considered some kind of > 'clean box' to work on the physically larger winchseters, like the 8" and > 14" drives in some of my classics. That actually sounds like an useful and easy thing to make. Something like a big glovebox, possibly. You might not get your 14" drives in. You may be able to adapt a sandblasting cabinet - it's designed to keep dust *in*, so it should be OK at keeping dust *out*. >>Of course, can't refute the argument about the internet >>connection :) > > > Or the space. The dexktop area needed by a laptop and printer is not that > much smaller than that needed by a desktop PC + not-too-large monitor + > printer. > It's still not a lot of space. Gordon. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 22 07:48:15 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:48:15 -0400 Subject: TU58 emulator Message-ID: <0IIH009V8KW31RF3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: re:TU58 emulator > From: Vintage Computer Festival > Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:31:43 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Jim Beacon wrote: > >> I've found that the TU58 emulator discussed above will not run under Windows >> NT - it will not even extract! It does extract under Win 98, and runs (and >> extracts) well under DOS 6.22 > >I don't know why it wouldn't extract under NT, other than you have a bad >tool. But at any rate, do NOT attempt to run this under Win 98, or for >that matter NT. I'm not sure how NT handles the serial ports compared to >Win 9x, but I wouldn't trust it anyway. Just run under real DOS so that >your access to the serial ports is unhindered by POOR programming. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival NT being NT4 or win2000 is really fussy as it controls devices with and iron fist. I've forced it but it wasn't fun. Your problem with extracting is a local problem unrelated to the emulator. Also forget XP. It runs fine under win9x but make sure the systems is really fast as there will be competeing things going on taking CPU time. The effects of that range from apparent slow access to a lot of IO as retrys due to overruns on the serial lines. Fortunately winders in the win9x range is not a port hog. I havent tried 98ME with this but for a lot of things it's really bad. The BEST as many have said is DOS version 6.22 being a good choice. I keep a 486/66 system running dos 6.22 and Win3.11 so that networking is easy to do but when I need something more or less realtime its available. Allison From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 22 08:01:05 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:01:05 -0400 Subject: unreadable HP cartridges In-Reply-To: <20050622080931.9C2243BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050622090105.009c3100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> That's an interesting idea and certainly worth a try but I sort of doubt you'd be able to read the magnetic bit pattern through the plastic tape. But if you coud it would probably save a lot of data. Joe At 04:09 AM 6/22/05 -0400, you wrote: >If you recall there was a discussion about tape catridges that could >not be read because their coating was falling off. > >I was thinking, what if we reverse the tape, so that the magnetic >head come in contact with the plastic backing and not the oxide. >Would it be possible to read the data then? > >Obviously I am talking about a one-off operation, just to get the >stuff off the tape. > >**vp > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 22 07:50:05 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:50:05 -0400 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050622085005.00a4eaa0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:58 PM 6/21/05 +0100, you wrote: >> Also... does anyone know about the differences between 4116 and 4164 >> chips enough to answer the question if one could use 4164s as long as >> one a) prevents the non-TTL supplies from reaching the chips (modify > >What you need to do is isolate pins 1 and 8 from the board and reconnect >pin 8 to +5V IIRC > > 4116 4164 >1 -5V N/C >8 +12V +5V >9 +5V A7 > >That leaves the extra address line tied high, so you only use 1/4 of the chip > >> board, modify sockets, modify pins...) and b) possibly tie up or tie >> down the extra multiplexed address input. Can you refresh 1/4 of a >> 4164 and have just that part stay refreshed? I ask because I have a > >There were 2 types of 64K DRAM. One of them used 7 bit refresh (same as >the 4116, on the same pins), the other, older/rarer one need all 8 >address lines to be used for the refresh (this was a royal pain on >Z80-based machines, where the CPU provides a 7 bit refresh only). Tony, This is good info. Someone should post it as a mini-FAQ. Do you have any info on which ones used 7 bit refresh and which ones used 8 bit refresh? Joe > >I have personally replaced the odd 4116 with a 4164 as I've just >described and had no problems. Maybe I've been lucky in finding 7-bit >refresh chips (which are the more common type), maybe it works anyway. > >> serious wad of new 4164s from COMBOARD stock, but 128Kw of 4116s (8 x >> 12) is more than I have lying around. >> > >-tony > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 22 08:11:22 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:11:22 -0500 Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... In-Reply-To: <200506220440.j5M4eqiQ017262@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200506220440.j5M4eqiQ017262@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050622080935.05308d80@mail> At 11:33 PM 6/21/2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >I'm sure this has happened to other people here, but it never happened to me >before, and it ticks me off. Someone posted an eBay ad for this vintage >handheld and blatantly copied 680 words of my work into the "more >information" part of the item's description. Above that part, they also >stole extensively (some text and the top photo) from the site >www.datamath.org, but at least the jerk includes that link... There is no >credit for my work at all. When I do it, I just post the link(s). Let the buyers go to the source. It saves them a lot of work. It saves me work, too - no bother with cutting and pasting, just a quick summary and some relevant links for the item for sale. - John From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 22 08:15:28 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:15:28 -0400 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface Message-ID: <0IIH00I35M5F7C43@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Top posted for size reasons... I do not know for sure that 7bit refresh is required. It's likely (not totally ceratin) that if you only using part of the array you will require 8 bit refresh anyway. known 7bit refresh 64k DRAMS, NEC, Mitsubushi, Hitachi HM4864 Known 8bit refresh TI, Moto(they also had hidden refresh). There may be others. Allison > >Subject: Re: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface > From: "Joe R." > Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:50:05 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At 11:58 PM 6/21/05 +0100, you wrote: >>> Also... does anyone know about the differences between 4116 and 4164 >>> chips enough to answer the question if one could use 4164s as long as >>> one a) prevents the non-TTL supplies from reaching the chips (modify >> >>What you need to do is isolate pins 1 and 8 from the board and reconnect >>pin 8 to +5V IIRC >> >> 4116 4164 >>1 -5V N/C >>8 +12V +5V >>9 +5V A7 >> >>That leaves the extra address line tied high, so you only use 1/4 of the chip >> >>> board, modify sockets, modify pins...) and b) possibly tie up or tie >>> down the extra multiplexed address input. Can you refresh 1/4 of a >>> 4164 and have just that part stay refreshed? I ask because I have a >> >>There were 2 types of 64K DRAM. One of them used 7 bit refresh (same as >>the 4116, on the same pins), the other, older/rarer one need all 8 >>address lines to be used for the refresh (this was a royal pain on >>Z80-based machines, where the CPU provides a 7 bit refresh only). > > >Tony, > > This is good info. Someone should post it as a mini-FAQ. > > Do you have any info on which ones used 7 bit refresh and which ones used >8 bit refresh? > > Joe > > >> >>I have personally replaced the odd 4116 with a 4164 as I've just >>described and had no problems. Maybe I've been lucky in finding 7-bit >>refresh chips (which are the more common type), maybe it works anyway. >> >>> serious wad of new 4164s from COMBOARD stock, but 128Kw of 4116s (8 x >>> 12) is more than I have lying around. >>> >> >>-tony >> From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 22 08:29:44 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:29:44 -0400 Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... References: <200506220440.j5M4eqiQ017262@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <17081.26568.251221.110592@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Computer" == Computer Collector Newsletter writes: Computer> I'm sure this has happened to other people here, but it Computer> never happened to me before, and it ticks me off. Someone Computer> posted an eBay ad for this vintage handheld and blatantly Computer> copied 680 words of my work into the "more information" Computer> part of the item's description. Above that part, they also Computer> stole extensively (some text and the top photo) from the Computer> site www.datamath.org, but at least the jerk includes that Computer> link... There is no credit for my work at all. So you can complain to eBay about copyright violation. They tend to pay attention to that sort of thing. paul From jim.isbell at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 08:38:32 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:38:32 -0500 Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... In-Reply-To: <17081.26568.251221.110592@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200506220440.j5M4eqiQ017262@keith.ezwind.net> <17081.26568.251221.110592@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: I was going to say that EBay has a rule against that so you could complain. BUT...its not like you were getting royalties on it so you are not being monetarily damaged so its probably not worth the trouble. A court would say, "Yeah, he did it, but you didnt suffer any damage." On 6/22/05, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Computer" == Computer Collector Newsletter writes: > > Computer> I'm sure this has happened to other people here, but it > Computer> never happened to me before, and it ticks me off. Someone > Computer> posted an eBay ad for this vintage handheld and blatantly > Computer> copied 680 words of my work into the "more information" > Computer> part of the item's description. Above that part, they also > Computer> stole extensively (some text and the top photo) from the > Computer> site www.datamath.org, but at least the jerk includes that > Computer> link... There is no credit for my work at all. > > So you can complain to eBay about copyright violation. They tend to > pay attention to that sort of thing. > > paul > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jun 22 08:41:26 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:41:26 +0100 Subject: Is this an RK05? Can anyone read it? In-Reply-To: <42B38C01.mailFG151M4I@gtoal.com> References: <42B38C01.mailFG151M4I@gtoal.com> Message-ID: <42B96A86.7020009@gjcp.net> Graham Toal wrote: > Meanwhile I'm holding off on saying yes to Fred in the hope that > someone within the UK has a working PDP11 that'll read the RK05. I have a working-ish PDP11, in Glasgow. I don't have an RK05 for it, but there *might* be some in Aberdeen which I'm supposed to be picking up. Now all I need is the van, and another couple of houses for all this stuff... Gordon. From mbbrutman at brutman.com Wed Jun 22 08:59:12 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:59:12 -0500 Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... In-Reply-To: <200506221145.j5MBjKEX068265@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506221145.j5MBjKEX068265@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42B96EB0.8050805@brutman.com> When it happened to my PCjr web site I contacted eBay, referred them to the original page, and asked them to kill the auction. eBay had a specific email address for this type of complaint and they cancelled the auction within a handful of hours. Nobody can possibly think that when they go to a personal website and lift the cover picture and text directly that they are just borrowing something that is public domain. It does take a lot of time to put that kind of information together, and I don't want it used for commerical uses. You can rewrite or link to the content, but I learned it was wrong to blatantly lift paragraphs back in 3rd grade. ;-0 Another seller asked me first before using the pictures and content. I declined them, but did encourage them to link to the content so that the next buyer would have a better idea of what they were buying and how to get the most out of it. Mike From allain at panix.com Wed Jun 22 09:42:12 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:42:12 -0400 Subject: Classiccmp cartoon sighting References: <200506220211.j5M2BgTf016420@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <002901c57738$9451f440$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> As if this list wasn't crowded enough already. cartoon: "How to Avoid Spring Fever", by Roz Chast magazine: The New Yorker, 23-May-2005 panel caption: 'Read a long, boring book - preferably one that makes no sence to you at all.' book title: "Teach Yourself Fortran" Pretty long reach by Chast here -- but a check actually shows a surprisingly long sales life for Fortran books written in the last 15 years. John A. I know spring ended yesterday, but just spotted this From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 10:15:34 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:15:34 +0100 Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: <2e6e307d4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <2e6e307d4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <575131af0506220815c0b376a@mail.gmail.com> On 6/19/05, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message > Isn't the TS-1000 just a rebadged Sinclair ZX81? If it is, then ZX81 software > should work fine on it. Yes, pretty much. 2K instead of 1K as standard, AFAICR. Q.v. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TS1000 Which IIRC I wrote... :?) -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 22 10:12:50 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unreadable HP cartridges In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050622090105.009c3100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Joe R. wrote: > That's an interesting idea and certainly worth a try but I sort of doubt > you'd be able to read the magnetic bit pattern through the plastic tape. > But if you coud it would probably save a lot of data. I have my doubts. I would think that if a tape is going to flake, it's going to flake whether you are running the oxide side against the head or not. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 22 10:14:44 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050622085005.00a4eaa0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Joe R. wrote: > At 11:58 PM 6/21/05 +0100, you wrote: > >> Also... does anyone know about the differences between 4116 and 4164 > >> chips enough to answer the question if one could use 4164s as long as > >> one a) prevents the non-TTL supplies from reaching the chips (modify > > > >What you need to do is isolate pins 1 and 8 from the board and reconnect > >pin 8 to +5V IIRC > > > > 4116 4164 > >1 -5V N/C > >8 +12V +5V > >9 +5V A7 > > > >That leaves the extra address line tied high, so you only use 1/4 of the chip > > > >> board, modify sockets, modify pins...) and b) possibly tie up or tie > >> down the extra multiplexed address input. Can you refresh 1/4 of a > >> 4164 and have just that part stay refreshed? I ask because I have a > > > >There were 2 types of 64K DRAM. One of them used 7 bit refresh (same as > >the 4116, on the same pins), the other, older/rarer one need all 8 > >address lines to be used for the refresh (this was a royal pain on > >Z80-based machines, where the CPU provides a 7 bit refresh only). > > > Tony, > > This is good info. Someone should post it as a mini-FAQ. > > Do you have any info on which ones used 7 bit refresh and which ones used > 8 bit refresh? I've been taking useful messages and posting them to the FAQ myself, attributing them to the original message author. I don't think Tony has time to reply to messages and then go over to the KB to post them as well. He has too much hacking to do. So it's up to you to post them to the KB if you think they are worthwhile. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Jun 22 10:32:22 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:32:22 -0700 Subject: IBM POWERstations In-Reply-To: <200506221145.j5MBjKEW068265@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506221145.j5MBjKEW068265@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Not a Schlage lock, Medeco (YUCK!! if security was this important, than why'd they put the power switch out front??) 4.3.3 runs pretty well if you have memory. I ran it with 1 of my cards (128M) and it was really slow. 256 ran pretty well. KB/M are standard PS/2. the "official" RS/6000 keyboard has a speaker in it, but it isn't necessary. Video is 3W3 or 13W3, seems pretty standard. If you need to foil the lock, I can trace the switch positions later today for kludging purposes. I wouldn't advise trying to go directly to IBM, they seem to be the "snooty Maitre'd" that would rather not sell anything than stoop to deal with the likes of an *individual* user. E-Bay has AIX cheap, generally, your school sysadmin might be a help, or you could ask around. Quick check of the RS6ks- plug them in and make sure the # panel doesn't flash 888. If you want the switch pinouts/paths email me, or for other questions. I don't think there of general enough interest for the group (but I could be wrong) I hope this e-mail address doesn't clog up the channels with HTML sludge, even if it does sound a bit egoistical. -Scott Quinn From news at computercollector.com Wed Jun 22 10:43:42 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:43:42 -0400 Subject: Classiccmp cartoon sighting In-Reply-To: <002901c57738$9451f440$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200506221551.j5MFpkR0022222@keith.ezwind.net> I wouldn't expect that New Yorker readers know what Fortran is. Surprised they didn't just make it Windows. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Allain Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 10:42 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Classiccmp cartoon sighting As if this list wasn't crowded enough already. cartoon: "How to Avoid Spring Fever", by Roz Chast magazine: The New Yorker, 23-May-2005 panel caption: 'Read a long, boring book - preferably one that makes no sence to you at all.' book title: "Teach Yourself Fortran" Pretty long reach by Chast here -- but a check actually shows a surprisingly long sales life for Fortran books written in the last 15 years. John A. I know spring ended yesterday, but just spotted this From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jun 22 10:50:38 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:50:38 -0700 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <42B8F379.30907@hachti.de> References: <42B8F379.30907@hachti.de> Message-ID: <1119455438.7743.3.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2005-06-22 at 07:13 +0200, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi, > > after several cleaning orgies, my SMD disk (AMPEX DFR-996, see other > posting) seems to start working. > Now I want to backup the data contained on the disks. These are RSX-11 > volumes. I cannot read them under RT11. And I don't know if I can make a > diskette RSX-11 to inspect the data. Or is there a preogram which runs > on rt11 and is able to understand rsx11 filesystem? That would be great! > > My first idea for the backup was "copy/device dm0: tt:" which works. But > there is no error correction and still only 19200 baud. > > So tell me, what are the really cool methods to transfer data between a > PC and a real PDP11 at a reasonable speed? SCSI controller and SCSI > disk? Something else? Ethernet? > > Or is a backup over serial line a normal thing...? I found that the best way to backup/restore is to use tape. I have a TU80 on the PDP and a SCSI 9-track on the PC. Works great and is much faster than the serial line. -- TTFN - Guy From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 22 10:54:29 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:54:29 -0400 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? References: <42B8F379.30907@hachti.de> <1119455438.7743.3.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <17081.35253.16903.847876@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Guy" == Guy Sotomayor writes: >> So tell me, what are the really cool methods to transfer data >> between a PC and a real PDP11 at a reasonable speed? SCSI >> controller and SCSI disk? Something else? Ethernet? >> >> Or is a backup over serial line a normal thing...? Guy> I found that the best way to backup/restore is to use tape. I Guy> have a TU80 on the PDP and a SCSI 9-track on the PC. Works Guy> great and is much faster than the serial line. Ethernet is another good way; DECnet is available on Linux. paul From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Jun 22 10:59:04 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:59:04 -0400 Subject: HP 2468 terminal docs? In-Reply-To: <003601c576b9$613cf7a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200506221559.j5MFx58w019597@mail.bcpl.net> On 21 Jun 2005 at 18:31, Jay West wrote: > I thought someone had located docs for the 2468 or 2469 terminals (HP), > but I don't see them over on bitsavers. I have 16 user's/reference/service manuals for various HP terminals (HP 2622A/D, 2623A, 2640A/B, 2641A, 2645A, 2647A, and 2648A). > Need pinouts, suggested wiring diagrams for both ext baud and int baud. That would be in: 02648-90002-Aug-1979 2648A Graphics Terminal Reference Manual I'm heading out of town tomorrow, but I'll start scanning it when I get back next Tuesday (if Al doesn't already have it squirreled away somewhere!). Meanwhile, if you need something specific from the manual before I leave, drop me a note off-list. -- Dave From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 22 11:31:32 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:31:32 -0500 Subject: HP 2468 terminal docs? References: <75063904bf54271a975d27716fb9be5d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <004001c57747$d9b99a10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I had written.... > > I'd like a copy of the terminal manual if it's still floating around. To which Al replied... > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/terminal/02648-90002_ref_Aug79.pdf Al, I can't say enough good about all you do for the hobby with bitsavers. You have my sincere grattitude, and I'm sure the rest of the list feels the same way. Regards, Jay From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 22 11:41:00 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? Message-ID: <200506221641.JAA15030@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jeff Davis" > >To pre-answer one question: no, I didn't get any operator keys for the boxes. > Are they difficult / expensive to find? If so, I'll go back on thursday and >dig thru the storage bins I found the machines in and look for a key... > >Jeff > Hi Take the lock to a locksmith. You might be surprised. I've not seen the one used on your unit but the local fellow here does them for $15 first key. Dwight From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 22 11:51:32 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to transfer data FAST? Message-ID: <20050622165132.48A6F70CA406@bitsavers.org> > Ethernet is another good way; DECnet is available on Linux. That assumes a fair amount of software working on the 11 side. Has anyone written something dumb that could squirt a block-level mass storage image (dealing with bad blocks..) through a DELUA or DELQA to a destination at the raw packet level? I've been thinking of doing a ethernet nub debugger for Qbus machines that would work that way (which I why I just picked up a DELQA..) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 22 11:53:14 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to transfer data FAST? Message-ID: <200506221653.JAA15072@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Philipp Hachtmann" > >Hi, > >after several cleaning orgies, my SMD disk (AMPEX DFR-996, see other >posting) seems to start working. >Now I want to backup the data contained on the disks. These are RSX-11 >volumes. I cannot read them under RT11. And I don't know if I can make a >diskette RSX-11 to inspect the data. Or is there a preogram which runs >on rt11 and is able to understand rsx11 filesystem? That would be great! > >My first idea for the backup was "copy/device dm0: tt:" which works. But >there is no error correction and still only 19200 baud. > >So tell me, what are the really cool methods to transfer data between a >PC and a real PDP11 at a reasonable speed? SCSI controller and SCSI >disk? Something else? Ethernet? > >Or is a backup over serial line a normal thing...? > > >Regards, >Philipp :-) > Hi Serial is still the easiest. If the PDP11 has a parallel printer port and your willing to write some code, sending by parallel port can be quite fast. Most all current day PC's still have a parallel printer port. The serial port has gone the way of the dinosaur. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 22 12:04:11 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unreadable HP cartridges Message-ID: <200506221704.KAA15077@clulw009.amd.com> >From: vp at cs.drexel.edu > >If you recall there was a discussion about tape catridges that could >not be read because their coating was falling off. > >I was thinking, what if we reverse the tape, so that the magnetic >head come in contact with the plastic backing and not the oxide. >Would it be possible to read the data then? > >Obviously I am talking about a one-off operation, just to get the >stuff off the tape. > >**vp > Hi Maybe with a good analog recording and a lot of signal processing. The high frequency loss will be quite high. depending on the tape it self, the depth of recording may make the difference. If it is recorded well through the magnetic media, there may be enough signal. The main issue is that you'd most likely need to make several passes to be able to recover the high frequency information above the noise level. This would require maybe doing 180 degrees several times before unrolling the next 180 degress of tape. One would also need to keep track of how far each layer was because the print through of the next layer would compete with the one your trying to read. One moght also go to one of the newer moer sensitive magnetic sensing methods used in current hard disk to increase the signal to noise. It would be a lot of work but I think with a budget of $250K I could read one. Additional reads would be at $10K each. Dwight From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Jun 22 12:34:18 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:34:18 -0500 Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... References: <1d7.3f004a9d.2fea4a1e@aol.com> <42B8F3D7.5010602@barrera.org> Message-ID: <000901c57750$d0d2c490$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Joe Barrera" Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 12:15 AM > SUPRDAVE at aol.com wrote: > >> I had that happen to me. I was just looking at stuff, and noticed >> some familiar sounding text related to a computer for sale, a PS/2 I >> think. I asked the seller a question and told him I knew what he did >> and that I demand the text either removed or attributed to me. He >> complied and said he would not do it anymore. Never had any other >> issue beyond that. > > I think these sellers find stuff on the web (yours), and view it as > authoritative text that somehow created itself, and never think > about the personal effort involved in researching and writing it. > If you've ever tried to teach students the importance of > attribution, you'll know how difficult it is to get people to > understand that their sources are not pure knowledge crystallized > from the heavens, but rather someone's concrete effort. > I know I'm not phrasing this well, but I'm trying to say it's > ignorance, not malice, that leads to not acknowledging sources. > And that's probably why education, in the form of telling each > infringer why they need to credit their sources, works more > than you'd think. Most people get it, once it's been explained > to them. > > - Joe Manuals that I have scanned are being sold on CD's. At first it bothered me but after that I want my PDF's distributed and this is just another way. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 22 12:56:07 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:56:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <42B94C40.10708@gjcp.net> References: <42B94C40.10708@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200506221800.OAA16387@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> You know full well that $100 is by no means the total cost of >> ownership for that PC for the length of time I'll want to be using >> it. > OK, so you've got the running costs. Let's just look at that: [...] You've also got repair costs - $100 peecees break[%]. You've got sysadmin costs, mostly in time (they will be higher for Tony than for people who already have such machines around, because integrating a `different' box is always more difficult). And then you've got the distaste factor, which is probably the largest cost of the lot (it certainly would be for me). [%] I run about a half-dozen machines 24/7. Most of them are Suns, which are Timexes (take a lickin' and keep on tickin'), but there are two machines with peecee-class hardware. They need more attention (repairs and replacement parts) than the rest of my network put together, by a factor of at *least* two or three. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 22 13:02:37 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... Message-ID: <200506221802.LAA15113@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > >Manuals that I have scanned are being sold on CD's. At first it bothered me >but after that I want my PDF's distributed and this is just another way. > >Randy >www.s100-manuals.com Hi It is just rude to not ask. Dwight From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 22 13:08:23 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:08:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface In-Reply-To: <0IIH00I35M5F7C43@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IIH00I35M5F7C43@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200506221810.OAA16500@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Top posted for size reasons... I suppose actually bothering to take a few seconds to edit it down to the relevant bits is out of the question?! (In case you're wondering what I'm talking about, see below.) >>>> [...use 4164s instead of 4116s?...] >>> What you need to do is [...pinout hackery...] >> Do you have any info on which ones used 7 bit refresh and which ones >> used 8 bit refresh? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 22 13:19:39 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface Message-ID: <200506221819.LAA15123@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "der Mouse" > >> Top posted for size reasons... > >I suppose actually bothering to take a few seconds to edit it down to >the relevant bits is out of the question?! (In case you're wondering >what I'm talking about, see below.) > >>>>> [...use 4164s instead of 4116s?...] >>>> What you need to do is [...pinout hackery...] >>> Do you have any info on which ones used 7 bit refresh and which ones >>> used 8 bit refresh? > Hi Most 4164's are 7 bit but look out for TI and some Samsung chips that are labled as 4164's but are actually 8 bit refresh. There is no easy way to tell by the part number. Even the Samsung ones are only different by the date code and rev letters!! The easiest way I've found to check is to put them in a Z80 system that uses the Z80's refresh address generator. If it holds data it is 7 bit. Dwight From news at computercollector.com Wed Jun 22 13:21:35 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:21:35 -0400 Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... In-Reply-To: <200506221802.LAA15113@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200506221829.j5MITp7K023637@keith.ezwind.net> The seller emailed me today, said he's never heard of my site, and claimed that "an eBay user" sent him the information. I don't believe that, but anyway, he apologized and said he will post a link. (Gee, thanks.) So far, he hasn't done so. Randy: I know your manuals situation has been discussed here before. It's noble of you to just appreciate the distribution. But you certainly deserve to be compensated for your work. (Guess I wouldn't do so well in the open-source world!) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 2:03 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > >Manuals that I have scanned are being sold on CD's. At first it >bothered me but after that I want my PDF's distributed and this is just another way. > >Randy >www.s100-manuals.com Hi It is just rude to not ask. Dwight From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 22 13:33:26 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <42B8F379.30907@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Jun 22, 2005 07:13:29 AM Message-ID: <200506221833.j5MIXRCx025456@onyx.spiritone.com> > So tell me, what are the really cool methods to transfer data between a > PC and a real PDP11 at a reasonable speed? SCSI controller and SCSI > disk? Something else? Ethernet? > > Or is a backup over serial line a normal thing...? It helps that I have SCSI Controllers on my operational PDP-11's. I use removable disk trays that allow me to move the HD's between PDP-11's, and more importantly to hook them up to a Unix box, at which point I can use 'dd' to back them up. The resulting disk images can be accessed via SIMH, E11, or burned to a CD-R and accessed on the real PDP-11 HW. I've managed to boot and install RT-11, RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ from CD-R. I've yet to figure out how to do that with RSTS/E. I also typically have either a TZ30 (half-height SCSI TK50 drive), or a TLZ06 (4mm DAT) drive hooked up. I prefer to use DAT, however, RSTS/E software doesn't really like trying to be installed from DAT. Ethernet using either TCP/IP or DECnet is another option that I use to transfer data, but I try to only use that for small amounts of data. One of these days I plan to go wireless with my PDP-11. I'd also like to see if I can't get a SCSI DVD-ROM drive running, but considering the difficulty with getting a CD-ROM drive to work, I have some doubts on getting that to work. Zane From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 22 13:44:18 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:44:18 -0400 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface Message-ID: <0III00BZ91DTQ0C4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface > From: der Mouse > Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:08:23 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Top posted for size reasons... > >I suppose actually bothering to take a few seconds to edit it down to >the relevant bits is out of the question?! (In case you're wondering >what I'm talking about, see below.) > >>>>> [...use 4164s instead of 4116s?...] >>>> What you need to do is [...pinout hackery...] >>> Do you have any info on which ones used 7 bit refresh and which ones >>> used 8 bit refresh? > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Hi Mouse, I didn't edit it for a very specific reason. I wanted the full content repeated but I didn't bury it at the bottom for those curious od the answer. Nominally I do bottom post and snip! Allison From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 22 13:45:06 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:45:06 -0400 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? References: <20050622165132.48A6F70CA406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <17081.45490.802950.550215@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow writes: >> Ethernet is another good way; DECnet is available on Linux. Al> That assumes a fair amount of software working on the 11 side. Indeed. Al> Has anyone written something dumb that could squirt a block-level Al> mass storage image (dealing with bad blocks..) through a DELUA or Al> DELQA to a destination at the raw packet level? The obvious way to do that would be tftp. I don't know enough Unix to know if 2.x BSD can boot into some sort of standalone diskless mode and do tftp. Even if not, a standalone bit of code that reads raw disk blocks at one end and does tftp writes at the other wouldn't be a large effort. You could probably find C code for it; feed it to gcc and make it into a standalone image... :-) paul From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 13:50:51 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:50:51 -0400 Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: <200506201752.KAA14178@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On 6/20/05 1:52 PM, "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > Hi Gary > You didn't say what the main issue is? The problem > could be most any thing. Have you listened to the > recordings to make sure you don't have dropouts? > Do you have an oscilloscope that you can use to > look at what the Z80 sees? No, Don't have an oscope handy, sadly, but I managed to Get a partial load from one tape, but I've given up since The other tapes seem to be very faded and whatnot, I don't Think these tapes are giving a good load any time soon. > If you have dropouts caused by wrinkled tapes, wind > the tape backwards and let it sit for about a week. > If it is folded, you may have to do some more serious > recovery tricks. I've has to do this on Poly88 tapes. > It may also be a problem in the Sinclair. Sometimes > the ceramic capacitors become leaky. This can effect > the threshold of the input comparitor. I'll have to check that > There are still more things to look at. Try to isolate > the problem. Things like, are you get partial reads? > And things like was meantioned about tape speeds. > If you are using a hi-fi unit, most line outs don't I'm using a hi-fi unit with the noise reduction and other Processing circutry disabled (There's switches on the front Panel to do this), and running it through my amp, feeding the Headphone jack into the TS, and that's how I did manage to Get one program I had recorded to load, and a partial load off of Another. > provide enough signal level. > Dwight From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 22 13:53:02 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:53:02 -0400 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? References: <42B8F379.30907@hachti.de> <200506221833.j5MIXRCx025456@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <17081.45966.911017.484225@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: >> So tell me, what are the really cool methods to transfer data >> between a PC and a real PDP11 at a reasonable speed? SCSI >> controller and SCSI disk? Something else? Ethernet? >> >> Or is a backup over serial line a normal thing...? Zane> It helps that I have SCSI Controllers on my operational Zane> PDP-11's. I use removable disk trays that allow me to move the Zane> HD's between PDP-11's, and more importantly to hook them up to Zane> a Unix box, at which point I can use 'dd' to back them up. The Zane> resulting disk images can be accessed via SIMH, E11, or burned Zane> to a CD-R and accessed on the real PDP-11 HW. I've managed to Zane> boot and install RT-11, RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ from CD-R. I've Zane> yet to figure out how to do that with RSTS/E. If the CD-R is on a controller RSTS understands (MSCP is the only option I can think of for this) and is formatted with the RSTS file structure, and has a boot block in sector zero, it should all just work. I haven't personally done this but I'm pretty sure it was done by one of my friends. I even have some weird "hybrid file system" hacks in RSTSFLX to let you create a CD-R that's partly ISO and partly RTST, and bootable. I believe that was used and shown to work, though I never saw the results. If you have the files, RSTSFLX can make a bootable disk image for you, so you can try this yourself. paul From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Jun 22 13:56:42 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:56:42 +0100 Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... References: <200506220440.j5M4eqiQ017262@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <004f01c5775c$2206e160$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> I have had this happen to me, as have a number of people on the Vintage Radio forum I frequent. I don't mind a link, along the lines of "there is more information about xxxxx at www.....", but I object to the "cut and paste" people. The worst offence is the use of my pictures (un-acknowledged) to sell someone else's item, this is FRAUD! Though if they are stupid enough to link to the image, you can have some fun at their expense....... Jim. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 22 13:56:04 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:56:04 -0400 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? References: <42B8F379.30907@hachti.de> <200506221833.j5MIXRCx025456@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <17081.46148.252832.370011@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: Zane> .... I also typically Zane> have either a TZ30 (half-height SCSI TK50 drive), or a TLZ06 Zane> (4mm DAT) drive hooked up. I prefer to use DAT, however, Zane> RSTS/E software doesn't really like trying to be installed from Zane> DAT. Why, what happens? If it's TMSCP it should work. Some of the I/O won't be streaming I/O, since the RSTS install process doesn't switch to the BACKUP tool (which supports streaming) until partway through. So if your tape drive can't hack start/stop operating mode, then yes, that could be a problem. In that case, I'd argue it simply isn't a good drive at all. paul From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 22 14:00:26 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:00:26 +0100 Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... In-Reply-To: <200506221829.j5MITp7K023637@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <000001c5775c$a7fb7ba0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >Randy: I know your manuals situation has been discussed here before. >It's noble of you to just appreciate the distribution. But you >certainly deserve to be compensated for your work. (Guess I >wouldn't do so well in the open-source world!) I'm just taking a wild stab in the dark here, but my guess is that Randy (and Al, and almost anyone else doing any scanning - me too for that matter) would have less than a whole leg to stand on in court! I don't claim any rights whatsoever to anything I've scanned. I've not heard anyone else here do so either. If you are going to complain that someone is taking things you've scanned and selling them, would it not be reasonable to ask whether the original copyright holder (who presumably had to _pay_ to get the manual written!) might not deserve at least a chance to deny your request to distribute their work? Apologies to those who have scanned only after having sought permission :-) As for people nabbing your web text and pictures (where I presume you hold the copyright and didn't just copy it wholesale from somewhere), then feel free to go after them. I found someone using my images in their auctions and after asking them to stop (and being ignored) I decided to add a (c) and my id to any photos I use. At least I'll have a decent chance of proving they're _my_ photos if it comes down to an argument! Antonio From news at computercollector.com Wed Jun 22 14:05:45 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:05:45 -0400 Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... In-Reply-To: <000001c5775c$a7fb7ba0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <200506221913.j5MJDpBf024269@keith.ezwind.net> >>>> As for people nabbing your web text and pictures (where I presume you hold the copyright and didn't just copy it wholesale from somewhere), then feel free to go after them. Yup, in my case, it's four years worth of original reporting and research. Oh well. I'm over it. Next topic... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 3:00 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... >Randy: I know your manuals situation has been discussed here before. >It's noble of you to just appreciate the distribution. But you >certainly deserve to be compensated for your work. (Guess I wouldn't >do so well in the open-source world!) I'm just taking a wild stab in the dark here, but my guess is that Randy (and Al, and almost anyone else doing any scanning - me too for that matter) would have less than a whole leg to stand on in court! I don't claim any rights whatsoever to anything I've scanned. I've not heard anyone else here do so either. If you are going to complain that someone is taking things you've scanned and selling them, would it not be reasonable to ask whether the original copyright holder (who presumably had to _pay_ to get the manual written!) might not deserve at least a chance to deny your request to distribute their work? Apologies to those who have scanned only after having sought permission :-) As for people nabbing your web text and pictures (where I presume you hold the copyright and didn't just copy it wholesale from somewhere), then feel free to go after them. I found someone using my images in their auctions and after asking them to stop (and being ignored) I decided to add a (c) and my id to any photos I use. At least I'll have a decent chance of proving they're _my_ photos if it comes down to an argument! Antonio From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 22 14:07:58 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:07:58 +0100 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <17081.45966.911017.484225@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <000301c5775d$b56116f0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > I haven't personally done this but I'm pretty sure it > was done by one of my friends. I even have some weird > "hybrid file system" hacks in RSTSFLX to let you create >a CD-R that's partly ISO and partly RTST, and bootable. That seems quite reasonable. The ISO9660 standard leaves enough blocks early on undefined that you can build a CD that is both a legal ISO9660 filesystem and a legal OpenVMS (ODS-2) filesystem. If you try hard enough, you can build a hybrid system where the ODS-2 and ISO9660 sides have different trees but share the same data (useful for stream-LF and binary files). I presume RSTS is ODS-1, which IIRC is ODS-2 but without a few of the bells and whistles so the structure is quite close to ODS-2. I would expect that you could interleave ODS-1 and ISO9660 fairly easily. Antonio From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 22 14:09:29 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:09:29 -0400 Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... References: <200506221829.j5MITp7K023637@keith.ezwind.net> <000001c5775c$a7fb7ba0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <17081.46953.359818.890994@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Antonio" == Antonio Carlini writes: >> Randy: I know your manuals situation has been discussed here >> before. It's noble of you to just appreciate the distribution. >> But you certainly deserve to be compensated for your work. (Guess >> I wouldn't do so well in the open-source world!) Antonio> I'm just taking a wild stab in the dark here, but my guess Antonio> is that Randy (and Al, and almost anyone else doing any Antonio> scanning - me too for that matter) would have less than a Antonio> whole leg to stand on in court! Antonio> I don't claim any rights whatsoever to anything I've Antonio> scanned. I've not heard anyone else here do so either. If Antonio> you are going to complain that someone is taking things Antonio> you've scanned and selling them, would it not be reasonable Antonio> to ask whether the original copyright holder (who presumably Antonio> had to _pay_ to get the manual written!) might not deserve Antonio> at least a chance to deny your request to distribute their Antonio> work? Antonio> Apologies to those who have scanned only after having sought Antonio> permission :-) Actually, even then your comment probably holds. Clearly a scanner can't hold copyright in the original content. That leaves compilation copyright. But it's hard to see how that would apply when the material published is simply a full page by page scan of the original. I have a scanned flight manual (US DOD publication, so no copyright on the original -- so clearly there are no issues with selling the scans). The scanner put a copyright notice on the scanned file. I can't see how that is valid. (Hm, that may explain why I saw a copy of that CD sold by someone else. Impolite, yes. Illegal? I wonder.) Hm, I wonder if the same comment applies to reprints of old books -- from Lindsay Publications, Dover Press, etc., other than new introductions and the like of course. paul paul From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 22 14:16:20 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:16:20 -0500 Subject: rescue needed (dec pdp & vax, rt11, maybe DG) Message-ID: <003e01c5775e$df6b9cd0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I've been in contact with an individual representing a university who has a metric butt-load of software and documentation for various systems. Primarily DEC PDP-11/RT11, some vax, and possibly some DG. He seemed to key in on RT11 software & Docs, as well as DEC handbooks, etc. He is located in north east Alabama, east and slightly north of birmingham. I would like to see Jerome Fine get first perusal of any RT11 images. The donator's primary concern is that this load of stuff NOT hit E-bay, and instead be scanned and archived for the public. Resting in private hands is ok, as he'd like to see the stuff get use as well. He just doesn't want to see someone turn a buck on ebay with it. I suspect most if not all of us would agree to this. So, anyone in north east alabama want to organize a pickup and distribution (probably to Al at some point for archiving)? Jay West From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 22 14:17:55 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:17:55 -0400 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? References: <17081.45966.911017.484225@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <000301c5775d$b56116f0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <17081.47459.108348.983690@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Antonio" == Antonio Carlini writes: >> I haven't personally done this but I'm pretty sure it was done by >> one of my friends. I even have some weird "hybrid file system" >> hacks in RSTSFLX to let you create a CD-R that's partly ISO and >> partly RTST, and bootable. Antonio> If you try hard enough, you can build a hybrid system where Antonio> the ODS-2 and ISO9660 sides have different trees but share Antonio> the same data (useful for stream-LF and binary files). Cool idea. I didn't do that -- didn't think of it, and also because I didn't know enough 9660 then. Antonio> I presume RSTS is ODS-1, which IIRC is ODS-2 but without a Antonio> few of the bells and whistles so the structure is quite Antonio> close to ODS-2. I would expect that you could interleave Antonio> ODS-1 and ISO9660 fairly easily. No, RSTS is RDS-1; it's a file structure all its own, totally unrelated to any other PDP-11 OS. (It's a distant relative of the TSS-8 file system, though.) In particular, the naming aspects (directory) and file block to disk block mapping aspects (file header in ODS, inode in Unix) are combined in the RSTS directory structure, unfortunately. So there is no rename across directories and neither softlinks nor hardlinks. It's all nicely documented in the RSTS internals manuals, and you can also read all about it in the RSTSFLX sources. paul From pspan at amerytel.net Wed Jun 22 14:30:05 2005 From: pspan at amerytel.net (Phil Spanner) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:30:05 -0500 Subject: Old Core Memory Boards Message-ID: <002c01c57760$cb43a160$0a01a8c0@airstreamcomm.net> Hi all, I just received an email from a close friend that used to work for a memory manufacturer called Fabri Tek Inc. here in Amery WI. He wants to sell some old core memory boards that came out of a drum memory from a power plant. Here is the info he sent to me. Manufacture Fabri Tek Inc. Date of manufacture circa 1970 Model 688 Size 55 C/M X 38.5 C/M X 2.5 C/M Core 32k x 20 or 655,360 cores Core size 18 m/in ferrite lithium P/N 256-0234-00 unit has 2ea 100 pin connectors .125 centers I am not sure how many he had, but I think he mentioned $ 30.00 each plus freight. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 22 14:39:59 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:39:59 -0700 Subject: Old Core Memory Boards Message-ID: <9964952abbd04f2c0443764d4820edcb@bitsavers.org> > He wants to sell some old core memory boards that came out of a drum memory If he still has it, the drum is a LOT more valuable than the core planes. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 22 14:55:32 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:55:32 +0100 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <17081.47459.108348.983690@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <000001c57764$5a39cea0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >No, RSTS is RDS-1; it's a file structure all its own, totally >unrelated to any other PDP-11 OS. (It's a distant relative of the >TSS-8 file system, though.) The trick with interleaving ODS-2 and ISO9660 is to use the first 64 blocks or so that ISO9660 leaves undefined as the "in" for ODS-2. Then you get N blocks of ISO9660 data and meta-data. The ISO9660 blocks get collected into BADBLK.SYS in ODS-2. So the two filesystems side-step each other. If you want to share data (which I did when I was building CDs with PDFs and index HTMLs) then that is possible, but slightly harder. As long as RDS-1 does not absolutely need block 64 and some way onwards, then it may be possible to logically interleave it and ISO9660. I've often wondered whether it would be possible to build a disk that could boot VAX, Alpha (OpenVMS) and PDP-11 (RSX-11). It would be an interesting exercise to try sometime, and probably a lot easier to test now that we have SIMH! Antonio From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Jun 22 15:03:35 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:03:35 +0200 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <000001c57764$5a39cea0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <17081.47459.108348.983690@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <000001c57764$5a39cea0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <20050622200335.GF30488@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2005-06-22 20:55:32 +0100, Antonio Carlini wrote: > 64 blocks or so that ISO9660 leaves undefined as the "in" for ODS-2. > Then you get N blocks of ISO9660 data and meta-data. The ISO9660 > blocks get collected into BADBLK.SYS in ODS-2. As for ODS-2, the vax-linux kernel does have some limited ODS-2 support. So if you've got some raw partition dumps, you may be able to to loop-mount it (or crash your box, depends on computer's mood, moon phase, jupiter's constellation towards earth and the answer to the final question...) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 22 15:13:53 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:13:53 -0400 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? References: <17081.47459.108348.983690@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <000001c57764$5a39cea0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <17081.50817.272776.117394@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Antonio" == Antonio Carlini writes: >> No, RSTS is RDS-1; it's a file structure all its own, totally >> unrelated to any other PDP-11 OS. (It's a distant relative of the >> TSS-8 file system, though.) Antonio> The trick with interleaving ODS-2 and ISO9660 is to use the Antonio> first 64 blocks or so that ISO9660 leaves undefined as the Antonio> "in" for ODS-2. Then you get N blocks of ISO9660 data and Antonio> meta-data. The ISO9660 blocks get collected into BADBLK.SYS Antonio> in ODS-2. That's essentially what I did. Antonio> As long as RDS-1 does not absolutely need block 64 and some Antonio> way onwards, then it may be possible to logically interleave Antonio> it and ISO9660. Right. The only hardwired block is block 1 (the "pack label"). All the rest starts from there and can be anywhere. Oh yes, and block 0 (the boot block) of course, for bootable disks. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 22 15:21:49 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FORTRAN books (was: Classiccmp cartoon sighting In-Reply-To: <002901c57738$9451f440$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <200506220211.j5M2BgTf016420@keith.ezwind.net> <002901c57738$9451f440$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20050622131930.I80195@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, John Allain wrote: > Pretty long reach by Chast here -- > but a check actually shows a surprisingly long sales > life for Fortran books written in the last 15 years. There still seems to be LOTS of copies of McCracken and/or Decima Anderson around. One of my colleagues needed to learn Spanish in a hurry, so she picked up a spanish translation of McCracken. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 22 14:34:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:34:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: <17080.46840.946168.266449@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Jun 21, 5 08:55:20 pm Message-ID: > I don't think anything short of molten sodium or fluorine gas bothers > PTFE. I think the other alkali metals, if molten, attack ptfe. I am not sure about lithium, but I'd not risk it... > > There are other surprises. Ethanol (plain old alcohol) is a rather > mild solvent that bothers very few things. But it wrecks plexiglas > (lucite). I remember the data sheet for an HP 'intellegent display' -- an LED 'starburst' 4-character device with built-in scanning logic, character generator, etc. It warned that although the package would not be damaged by many solbents, alcohol (I can't remember if it was all alcohols or just ethanol) would ruin it. I've been told some optical plastics are wrecked by ethanol too. -tony k From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 22 14:41:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:41:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: unreadable HP cartridges In-Reply-To: <20050622080931.9C2243BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Jun 22, 5 04:09:31 am Message-ID: > > If you recall there was a discussion about tape catridges that could > not be read because their coating was falling off. > > I was thinking, what if we reverse the tape, so that the magnetic > head come in contact with the plastic backing and not the oxide. > Would it be possible to read the data then? I think you'd lose almost as much oside (rubbing on the other layers of tape on the spool, on the tape guides, etc) and would be almost certain not to get a useful signal off the tape. Spacing the magnetic part (the oxide coating) away from the head (by the thickness of the tape base) would kill off the HF response of the drive. You'd almost certainly not be able to resolve individual bits. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 22 14:44:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:44:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <42B94C40.10708@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jun 22, 5 12:32:16 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > >> > >>Tony, you have to have a consistent story on this one. You don't have > >>$100 to buy a used but usable PC for the times that one is needed, but > > > > > > You know full well that $100 is by no means the total cost of ownership > > for that PC for the length of time I'll want to be using it. > > > > OK, so you've got the running costs. Let's just look at that: I have said this many time... The costs I am taliing about are the costs to get the tools and test gear to be able to maintain that machine for as long as I want to use it. > > ... about 200 watts, less a bit for the hifi amp and mixer that are > currently running. Say 120-150 watts for a Duron 1100 and a 19" > monitor, that is run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Probably about as > much power as the cooling fans alone in my PDP11 rack. > > Not really a lot, is it? More than the electricity costs of reading a book (either by daylight or by compact fluorescent lamp at night).... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 22 14:49:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:49:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: <42B94F07.3080008@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jun 22, 5 12:44:07 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > >>harddrives go up on me (Admittingly, IBM DEATHSTARTS), one > >>motherboard that ate ram for Breakfast! > > > > > > Now, you see, I'd have wanted to figure out what was wrong with said > > motherboard _before_ it damaged more than one set of RAMs. > > Hang on though, a motherboard is a cheap(-ish) off-the-shelf component. > What do you do if a bearing goes bad? Do you buy a new bearing, or do > you build up the track with weld, grind it back, and have it hard chromed? Depends on the bearing. For a ball or roller race, I replace it -- it's a standard part. For something like a phosphor bronze bush, I might well make my own replacement. It would depend on the ease of getting the original part, the lead time on it, etc... There is one other bif difference. If I need a ball race for a 10-year-old motor, I can almost certainly get it, off the shelf. If not, then it's not too hard to modify the motor housing to take a bearing I can get. Now just try getting a new motherboard for a 10 year old PC. One that will use the same processor, memory, and expansion cards. I think you'll have problems. Heck, even the case and PSU might need to be changed. I have no intention of replacing the whole machine every time some trivial component fails. > > I guess it does. I don't -- yet -- haev a clean room to repair > > winchester-type hard drives. Although I have considered some kind of > > 'clean box' to work on the physically larger winchseters, like the 8" and > > 14" drives in some of my classics. > > That actually sounds like an useful and easy thing to make. Something > like a big glovebox, possibly. You might not get your 14" drives in. Exactly... > You may be able to adapt a sandblasting cabinet - it's designed to keep > dust *in*, so it should be OK at keeping dust *out*. Incidentally, one of the older demountables -- I think it was the DEC RK01 -- used a standard car air filter as the absolute filter. You might get away with something like that, and a suitable fan, to run the 'clean box' > > >>Of course, can't refute the argument about the internet > >>connection :) > > > > > > Or the space. The dexktop area needed by a laptop and printer is not that > > much smaller than that needed by a desktop PC + not-too-large monitor + > > printer. > > > > It's still not a lot of space. And it's still more than I have feee... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 22 14:53:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:53:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050622085005.00a4eaa0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 22, 5 08:50:05 am Message-ID: > This is good info. Someone should post it as a mini-FAQ. Feel free... > > Do you have any info on which ones used 7 bit refresh and which ones used > 8 bit refresh? I probably have the info somewhere, but I can't remember where (so I might as well not have it!). All I can suggest is to try it. It won't do any harm if you use the wrong sort of chip. If it works, then either it's a 7 bit refresh type, or an 8 bit refresh one that still refreshes the part you're using conrrectly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 22 14:57:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:57:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 22, 5 08:14:44 am Message-ID: > I've been taking useful messages and posting them to the FAQ myself, Thank you. > attributing them to the original message author. I don't think Tony has > time to reply to messages and then go over to the KB to post them as well. > He has too much hacking to do. To be honest, yes I prefer hacking to writing FAQs, and I think I am probably better and the former.... > > So it's up to you to post them to the KB if you think they are worthwhile. For the record, if I've posted anything pnblically (including to this list), then I have no objections to it being added to FAQs, the KB, etc... I do ask that my name or e-mail address is somehow attached to it, though, for obvious reasons. -tony From spedraja at ono.com Wed Jun 22 15:47:12 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:47:12 +0200 Subject: FORTRAN books (was: Classiccmp cartoon sighting References: <200506220211.j5M2BgTf016420@keith.ezwind.net><002901c57738$9451f440$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <20050622131930.I80195@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <005a01c5776b$923a56b0$1502a8c0@ACER> Are these available there ? They are unavailable here in Spain from years ago. And I remember to learn Cobol with one McCracken manual. Regards Sergio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 10:21 PM Subject: FORTRAN books (was: Classiccmp cartoon sighting > On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, John Allain wrote: > > Pretty long reach by Chast here -- > > but a check actually shows a surprisingly long sales > > life for Fortran books written in the last 15 years. > > There still seems to be LOTS of copies of McCracken and/or Decima Anderson > around. > > One of my colleagues needed to learn Spanish in a hurry, so she picked up > a spanish translation of McCracken. > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 22 16:02:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:02:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP50960A Message-ID: Does anyone know anything about a computer (I assume) called the HP50960A, and how it relates to the HP9817A (if it does at all)? While looking in my collection for something else, I came across one. It's a box about the size of one of the later HP hard disk units (a 9133H, for example). Inside, there's a SMPSU, a backplane (which has an 09817- part number), and a mainboard flat in the bottom of the case. The backplane has 6 of what I assume are DIO slots (as normal, every other one can take a card with a connector bracked, the intermediate ones are for memory cards). There's a row of 2 pin fuses along the top of the backplane, and what looks like some kind of voltage regulator circuitry down the edge. The mainboard connects to the backplane by a DIN41612 (96 pin) connector at the bottom. After remoing the cover, expansion cards, disconnectign the fan plug from teg backplane and removing 2 more screws, the mainboard and rear panel slide out. Onthe mainboard are an HPIB port and RS232 port The mainboard contains : 68000 CPU. 68440 (DMA controller I think), 1TL1-0004 (HPIB controller), 68681 (serial chip), 2 ROMs, 512K DRAM, a couple of PALs, TTL glue, etc. One corner of the mainboard is not populated, it looks like it could have taken an ethernet interface, with postiions for a DA15 and BNC connector. There are no memory cards in my machine, but there are 3 expansion cards: 'Human Interface HPIB'. External connectors are 24 pin Blue Ribbon for HPIB, a 3.5mm jack socket (mini phone jack) labeleld 'speaker (8$\Omega$)' and a keyboard connector which I am sure is HP-HIL. The main chips on the boardare a 9914 HPIB controller + buffers, a 1RD2-0001 HP-HIL interface, a microcontroller (8041?) a76494 sound chip (!), and TTL glue. 'Composite video 98204A'. There's an unmarked BNC on the bracket, I am sure that's the composite vidoe out. Also 2 unmarked screwdriver-set hex switches. Main chips are a 6845 CRT controller, 6116 SRAM, a couple of EPROMs, TTL glue. There's an unmarked 20 pin header inside, near the back panel. 'SRM Coaz Interface'. Afain with a BNC connector on the bracket, and an LED marked 'Transmit activity'. Clearly a network card. Stuck on (but official) labels give the select code as 21 and the node address as 00. There are labelled DIP switches on the board to set these. Main chips include a Z80A, Z80A-CTC, Z80A-SIO, 6264 SRAM, ROM, an NatSemi analogue part (from the number) which is not in the equivalents list, and which seems to link to the BNC connector, a PAL, and TTL glue Any ideas as to what it is, and if it can be made to do something interesting? -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 22 16:35:26 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:35:26 -0500 Subject: FORTRAN books (was: Classiccmp cartoon sighting References: <200506220211.j5M2BgTf016420@keith.ezwind.net><002901c57738$9451f440$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06><20050622131930.I80195@shell.lmi.net> <005a01c5776b$923a56b0$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <001001c57772$4f8af110$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> SP wrote... > Are these available there ? They are unavailable here in Spain from years > ago. And I remember to learn Cobol with one McCracken manual. I don't have the FORTRAN ones, but an oft-referred to well worn copy on my bookshelf of "A simplified guide to structured programming in COBOL, McCracken". Decent book, in my opinion. Jay From john at guntersville.net Wed Jun 22 16:35:57 2005 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:35:57 -0500 Subject: rescue needed (dec pdp & vax, rt11, maybe DG) References: <003e01c5775e$df6b9cd0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42B9D9BD.883A773F@guntersville.net> Jay West wrote: > > I've been in contact with an individual representing a university who has a > metric butt-load of software and documentation for various systems. > Primarily DEC PDP-11/RT11, some vax, and possibly some DG. He seemed to key > in on RT11 software & Docs, as well as DEC handbooks, etc. > > He is located in north east Alabama, east and slightly north of birmingham. > I would like to see Jerome Fine get first perusal of any RT11 images. The > donator's primary concern is that this load of stuff NOT hit E-bay, and > instead be scanned and archived for the public. Resting in private hands is > ok, as he'd like to see the stuff get use as well. He just doesn't want to > see someone turn a buck on ebay with it. I suspect most if not all of us > would agree to this. > > So, anyone in north east alabama want to organize a pickup and distribution > (probably to Al at some point for archiving)? > > Jay West Where in north east Alabama. I am located in Guntersville, about 40 miles south east of Huntsville and about 75 miles north north east of Birmingham. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 22 16:37:22 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:37:22 -0500 Subject: unreadable HP cartridges References: Message-ID: <001d01c57772$93430ff0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote.... > Spacing the magnetic part (the oxide coating) away from the head (by the > thickness of the tape base) would kill off the HF response of the drive. > You'd almost certainly not be able to resolve individual bits. Ok, use a magnetic fingerprinting powder on it ;) Actually, I've heard (and seen) there IS a liquid solution that will let you visibly see the dots on mag tape. THEN... read the bits optically. Jay From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 16:48:56 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:48:56 +0100 Subject: More HP Series 80: Waveform Analysis Pac rescued Message-ID: Hi list, On a recent trip back to (that same) dumpster, I managed to rescue an HP Waveform Analysis Pac for the Series 80 machines. It's a plastic folder with white vacuum-formed compartments inside, and it contains the following: * one 5.25" floppy with a printed Waveform Analysis Pac label ((C) Hewlett-Packard 1980) * a transparent plastic bag containing a sheet of stickers, each of which say "SELECT CODE n" where n goes from 1 to 9 (7 is missing) * an HP-85 format tape with printed label "HP-85 WAVEFORM ANALYSIS PAC" * another similar tape but with a handwritten label and a piece of HP-85 printout inside the case with it showing the directory listing * around 12 code fragments/pieces of program output printed out on the HP-85 internal printer, one of which has some line graphs on it * some photocopies of program listings from the HP-85 printer (one of these is dated 6/2/81) * an approx. 1/4" stack of code listings (not sure if these are for user-written code or vendor-supplied code, but they appear to be for waveform analysis) These are available to anyone who would be able to place them in a public archive available to the classic computing community (Vassilis? Al?). If the long listings are user-written, someone has put a lot of effort into this, and I'd like to see it live on. Usual deal with shipping - I'll ship to anywhere, you pay shipping cost though. Ed. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 22 16:53:30 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old Core Memory Boards Message-ID: <200506222153.OAA15208@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Do these boards come with the read and write circuits or are they just core boards? One can check ebay for typical core board values ( not that great ). Dwight >From: "Phil Spanner" >Hi all, > >I just received an email from a close friend that used to work for a memory >manufacturer called Fabri Tek Inc. here in Amery WI. >He wants to sell some old core memory boards that came out of a drum memory >from a power plant. Here is the info he sent to me. > >Manufacture Fabri Tek Inc. Date of manufacture circa >1970 > >Model 688 > >Size 55 C/M X 38.5 C/M X 2.5 C/M > >Core 32k x 20 or 655,360 cores > >Core size 18 m/in ferrite lithium > >P/N 256-0234-00 > >unit has 2ea 100 pin connectors .125 centers > >I am not sure how many he had, but I think he mentioned $ 30.00 each plus >freight. > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 22 16:58:26 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:58:26 -0700 Subject: HP50960A Message-ID: <42B9DF02.3030505@bitsavers.org> Any ideas as to what it is, and if it can be made to do something interesting? -- Sounds like some variant of the 9817 / 9000/210 http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=7 http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=120 you'll find some field service manuals hiding under "Product Documentation" there googling 50960A turns up "200/SRM Server" SRM is a 700kbit networking scheme which uses the 5096x DIO-I interfaces So it was probably the server side box for an SRM network From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Jun 22 17:07:10 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:07:10 -0400 Subject: HP50960A In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050622180251.03cba620@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: >Does anyone know anything about a computer (I assume) called the >HP50960A, and how it relates to the HP9817A (if it does at all)? Google stumbled across 1 PDF online, I've cut-n-pasted a bit of the text out so that may help you... the link to the PDF is here: www.tamsinc.com/srmux/support/srm_sys_admin/3/ch3.pdf From what I read, it *sounds* (and I stress this as I know *nothing* about HP-UX in general, or HP 9000 series machines either...) like it's a form of "thin client" or "X-term" for HP9K systems. Anyway, HTH, and gotta blast... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger Following is a portion of that PDF.... =-=-=-=-=-= Server and Client Workstations The heart of the SRM/UX system is the resource management server hardware-platform, running special software -- the srmd(1M) daemon process -- which manages the data communication with the client workstations. In the SRM/UX system, the term "server" typically refers to the entirety of the HP-UX platform running the srmd(1M) process. The server also handles all mass storage and I/O activities related to the operation and use of shared system resources. Unlike the SRM server, the SRM/UX server can be simultaneously used as an HP-UX workstation. HP-UX Host Platforms that run as servers: ? HP9000 Series 300 which can have SRM cards and/or LAN interfaces installed ? HP9000 Series 400 which can have only LAN interfaces installed ? HP9000 Series 800 which can have only LAN interfaces installed The Series 400 and Series 800 can act as a server only over the LAN connection because SRM card support is not included in HP-UX on those workstations. As a result, some Series 200 clients could not use a Series 400 or 800 as a server because there would be no way to connect them together. Platforms that run as clients: ? HP 9000 Series 300 ? HP 9000 Series 200 Some Series 200 computers don't support LAN interfaces; they must use SRM cards. LAN interfaces are supported only for 226's and 236's. The SRM Connection The SRM connection has two different configurations: the SRM coax connection and the SRM multiplexer connection, which are functionally identical. Both connections are supported. For instructions on how to correctly install your SRM interface cards and SRM cabling, see the "Installing the SRM/UX System Hardware" section later in this chapter. The LAN Connection See the "Inter-system Communication" chapter of the HP9000 Workstations Configuration Guide for details on how to correctly install your LAN interface cards and the LAN cabling. The Shared Peripherals The shared peripherals on the SRM/UX system which are attached to the server(s), will be installed and configured by the HP-UX system administrator at your site. Installing and configuring peripherals is no longer in the province of the SRM/UX system administrator, as it was for the SRM system administrator. The SRM/UX system administrator needs only to configure the SRM/UX system spooling environment to work within the HP-UX spooling environment. See chapters 2 and 4 for details about doing this. The shared peripherals are connected to the SRM/UX server and include: printers, plotters, and disc drives. The number and kind of shared peripherals are dictated by user requirements. The number of disc/tape drives, printers, and plotters the SRM/UX server can support, is dependent on the constraints of your HP-UX system. See the HP 9000 Workstations Configurations Guide for details. Additional peripherals can be connected to individual client workstations for special needs, but they cannot be shared by other client workstations. Glossary of Hardware Terminology SRM: Stands for Shared Resource Management, typically used to refer to the SRM server (HP50960A), its operating system software, and the peripherals attached to the SRM server. SRM/UX is an emulation of the SRM on HP-UX. SRM card (or SRM interface): Refers to one of the following HP SRM card part numbers: HP98629A,HP98629 + HP50961U combination, or HP50962A. SRM Coax Adapter: Refers to the HP 50961 Resource Management Coax Adapter. This adapter attaches to an HP 98629 to allow the use of this SRM interface on a coax connection. SRM coax connection: Describes the SRM hardware configuration that uses SRM coax interfaces or HP 50961 Resource Management Coax Adapters at the client and server workstations, and uses coax cabling to connect the client(s) and server(s) in a bus fashion. SRM coax interface: Refers to the HP50962A SRM card. This interface is functionally equivalent to the HP98629 SRM card and HP50961U Coax Adapter combination, which is also used on a coax connection. SRM multiplexer connection: Describes the SRM hardware configuration in which the HP 98028A Resource Management Multiplexer and HP 97061 cables are used to connect clients and the SRM server. This configuration is obsolete. SRM/UX server: An SRM/UX server is an HP Series 300, 400 or 800 HP-UX computer running a special application (srmd(1M)) that provides booting, file system, and spooling services to SRM/UX clients. It provides these services such that in most cases SRM/UX clients do not have to know that they are using an SRM/UX server instead of an SRM. -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jun 22 17:11:29 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:11:29 +0100 Subject: Altair Fan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B9E211.8050006@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > Incidentally, one of the older demountables -- I think it was the DEC > RK01 -- used a standard car air filter as the absolute filter. You might > get away with something like that, and a suitable fan, to run the 'clean box' I did notice that the air filter on the RL02 was suspiciously similar in size to the air filter for a Citro?n AX diesel. it's the right width, anyway - you'd chop it down and lose the rubber seal off one side. You could bodge that with RTV silicone. Gordon. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 22 17:16:42 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <20050622165132.48A6F70CA406@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jun 22, 2005 09:51:32 AM Message-ID: <200506222216.j5MMGgA9000707@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Ethernet is another good way; DECnet is available on Linux. > > That assumes a fair amount of software working on the 11 side. Can a PDP-11 running DECnet talk reliably to a Linux box running DECnet? It's been probably 5+ years since I played with it, but when I checked last, it couldn't. If it can now, that could be rather handy. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 22 17:20:10 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <17081.45966.911017.484225@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Jun 22, 2005 02:53:02 PM Message-ID: <200506222220.j5MMKA0l000871@onyx.spiritone.com> > Zane> It helps that I have SCSI Controllers on my operational > Zane> PDP-11's. I use removable disk trays that allow me to move the > Zane> HD's between PDP-11's, and more importantly to hook them up to > Zane> a Unix box, at which point I can use 'dd' to back them up. The > Zane> resulting disk images can be accessed via SIMH, E11, or burned > Zane> to a CD-R and accessed on the real PDP-11 HW. I've managed to > Zane> boot and install RT-11, RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ from CD-R. I've > Zane> yet to figure out how to do that with RSTS/E. > > If the CD-R is on a controller RSTS understands (MSCP is the only > option I can think of for this) and is formatted with the RSTS file > structure, and has a boot block in sector zero, it should all just > work. > > I haven't personally done this but I'm pretty sure it was done by one > of my friends. I even have some weird "hybrid file system" hacks in > RSTSFLX to let you create a CD-R that's partly ISO and partly RTST, > and bootable. I believe that was used and shown to work, though I > never saw the results. > > If you have the files, RSTSFLX can make a bootable disk image for you, > so you can try this yourself. > > paul I didn't have any problem with getting RSTS/E to start to boot off of CD-R, where I had problems was with it not liking the fact it was on a Read-Only filesystem. If I had a better understanding of RSTS/E, I suspect this could be overcome. I've not had the time to look further into the matter. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 22 17:22:02 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FORTRAN books (was: Classiccmp cartoon sighting In-Reply-To: <005a01c5776b$923a56b0$1502a8c0@ACER> References: <200506220211.j5M2BgTf016420@keith.ezwind.net><002901c57738$9451f440$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <20050622131930.I80195@shell.lmi.net> <005a01c5776b$923a56b0$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <20050622150059.C80195@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, SP wrote: > Are these available there ? They are unavailable here in Spain from years > ago. And I remember to learn Cobol with one McCracken manual. The Spanish translations of McCracken show up occasionally at the flea markets, but not very often. The cover looks the same, other than the difference in title. My colleague with the FORTRAN book won't be back until December. I'll ask her if she is willing to part with it, but since she has kept all of her old APL and RPG books, I doubt it. A quick search on abebooks.com turned up a bunch of German books, one Italian, one Romanian!, and only one Spanish one (kinda expensive!): http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=258879038 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 22 17:22:15 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <17081.46148.252832.370011@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Jun 22, 2005 02:56:04 PM Message-ID: <200506222222.j5MMMFMF000942@onyx.spiritone.com> > Zane> .... I also typically > Zane> have either a TZ30 (half-height SCSI TK50 drive), or a TLZ06 > Zane> (4mm DAT) drive hooked up. I prefer to use DAT, however, > Zane> RSTS/E software doesn't really like trying to be installed from > Zane> DAT. > > Why, what happens? If it's TMSCP it should work. Some of the I/O > won't be streaming I/O, since the RSTS install process doesn't switch > to the BACKUP tool (which supports streaming) until partway through. > So if your tape drive can't hack start/stop operating mode, then yes, > that could be a problem. In that case, I'd argue it simply isn't a > good drive at all. > > paul As I understand it, the issue was with variable byte blocks. I had zero issues installing RSTS/E, and I think a couple layered products off of 4mm DAT. However, DECnet/E would not install off of DAT. Zane From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 22 17:29:59 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:29:59 -0400 Subject: Classiccmp cartoon sighting In-Reply-To: <200506221551.j5MFpkR0022222@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200506221551.j5MFpkR0022222@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42B9E667.nail3Y1113UIC@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > I wouldn't expect that New Yorker readers know what Fortran is. > Surprised they didn't just make it Windows. New Yorker cartoons are supposed to have somewhat obscure humor. If you get the reference and find it funny you're supposed to feel superior to those who didn't get it. There have been New Yorker cartoons that were so obscure that nobody got them. Not even the editors. Of course it's also possible to interpret a cartoon too intellectually. Look at the response to the "Cow Tools" Far Side cartoon for example. Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 22 17:43:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:43:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: unreadable HP cartridges In-Reply-To: <001d01c57772$93430ff0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jun 22, 5 04:37:22 pm Message-ID: > Ok, use a magnetic fingerprinting powder on it ;) Actually, I've heard (and > seen) there IS a liquid solution that will let you visibly see the dots on > mag tape. There is. It generally goes under the name of 'Magnasee' and is a colloidal suspension of iron oxide in some suitable volatile liquid. I have no idea where you get it nowadays, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 22 17:48:39 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:48:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP50960A In-Reply-To: <42B9DF02.3030505@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jun 22, 5 02:58:26 pm Message-ID: > > Any ideas as to what it is, and if it can be made to do something > interesting? > > -- > > Sounds like some variant of the 9817 / 9000/210 It sure looks like a 9817, and the backplane has a 09817- part number, which would indicate that it came from that machine. The mainboard has a 50960- part number, but it's on a stuck-on (HP printed) label, not in the etch or silk-screen. There doesn't appear to be any other number under the label, though. Did either of the 9817 or 9000/210 have ethernet as standard? The mainboard looks to be laid out for it. There's a 10MHz oscillator can fitted inside the footprint for what seems to be the ethernet controller chip, my guess is that if the ethernet stuff was fitted, there was a 10MHz clock available on one of the pins of that. Of course I have no idea (yet) if the firmware had been changed. At least it's socketed 28 pin ROM chips... > > http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=7 > http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=120 > > you'll find some field service manuals hiding under "Product Documentation" > there Thanks, I will take a(nother) look. > > googling 50960A turns up "200/SRM Server" > > SRM is a 700kbit networking scheme which uses the 5096x DIO-I interfaces There is one of those interfaces in this machine, I think I mentioned it. Of course I've got nothing to connect it to. > > So it was probably the server side box for an SRM network Presumably it expects normal HP disk units on one of the HPIB buses. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 22 17:54:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:54:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP50960A In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050622180251.03cba620@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jun 22, 5 06:07:10 pm Message-ID: > > Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > >Does anyone know anything about a computer (I assume) called the > >HP50960A, and how it relates to the HP9817A (if it does at all)? > > Google stumbled across 1 PDF online, I've cut-n-pasted a bit of the text=20 > out so that may help you... the link to the PDF is here: Thanks.... It sounds like i haev an SRM server, with the coax interface card. I guess this is not the SRM-UX software, and that this server can't also be used as a workstation at the same time. Which makes sense, since it's only a 68000 with 512K RAM. I've not tried powering it up with a monitor connected, but I wonder if some of the SRM server software is in ROM. If so, then it may be difficult to get it to anything else unless I can find images of the 9817 (or whatecer) ROMs anywhere. I will take a look around. > > www.tamsinc.com/srmux/support/srm_sys_admin/3/ch3.pdf > > From what I read, it *sounds* (and I stress this as I know *nothing* abo= > ut=20 > HP-UX in general, or HP 9000 series machines either...) like it's a form = > of=20 > "thin client" or "X-term" for HP9K systems. I thought it sounded more like the server side of things. It's certainly not a graphics terminal -- the video board only has 2K of RAM on it. That sounds to me like 80*24 text. -tony From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 22 18:14:10 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:14:10 -0400 Subject: unreadable HP cartridges In-Reply-To: References: <001d01c57772$93430ff0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050622191410.009bb490@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:43 PM 6/22/05 +0100, you wrote: >> Ok, use a magnetic fingerprinting powder on it ;) Actually, I've heard (and >> seen) there IS a liquid solution that will let you visibly see the dots on >> mag tape. > >There is. It generally goes under the name of 'Magnasee' and is a >colloidal suspension of iron oxide in some suitable volatile liquid. I >have no idea where you get it nowadays, though. I still have a bottle of it but what good would it do to know the binary pattern? You couldn't program a new tape with it. Joe From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 22 18:45:34 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unreadable HP cartridges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050622162732.E85841@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Ok, use a magnetic fingerprinting powder on it ;) Actually, I've heard (and > > seen) there IS a liquid solution that will let you visibly see the dots on > > mag tape. > > There is. It generally goes under the name of 'Magnasee' and is a > colloidal suspension of iron oxide in some suitable volatile liquid. I > have no idea where you get it nowadays, though. It USETA be readily available from professional video places for lining up reel to reel tape and splicing it without losing synch. A friend made some out of rust. We used it to show students the tracks on some floppies. On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Joe R. wrote: > I still have a bottle of it but what good would it do to know the binary > pattern? You couldn't program a new tape with it. ... but with sufficient time and effort, you could MANUALLY read the tape :-) How long would an entire tape take? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jun 22 19:01:47 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:01:47 -0500 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <42B764C0.6010304@compsys.to> References: <000001c57585$90276c10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <42B764C0.6010304@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20050622190147.6b13876c.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:52:16 -0400 "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > Does anyone > have any success with a CD emulation program that will > allow me to use a CD image file (an exact duplicate of > the ISO image file of the CD which was used to burn the > CD in the first place)? Are there both free and commercial > versions? What are the advantages and the disadvantages? The program 'Winimage' which is easily located online allows you to create floppy diskette images. If you save them as uncompressed, they're the same as images you'd create using a Unix-like OS (i.e. NetBSD or Linux) using the dd command, and you can use 'rawrite' to write them (a free open-source program many free-Unix-like OSes make use of. Winimage also will open ISO images to 'browse' them as if they are actual cds. (the point of this reply, the first paragraph is just advertising) From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 22 19:04:46 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:04:46 -0500 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <20050622190147.6b13876c.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <000001c57585$90276c10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <42B764C0.6010304@compsys.to> <20050622190147.6b13876c.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050622190318.057f1e18@mail> At 07:01 PM 6/22/2005, Scott Stevens wrote: >Winimage also will open ISO images to 'browse' them as if they are >actual cds. (the point of this reply, the first paragraph is just >advertising) If we're talking Windows XP, Microsoft has an unsupported "virtual CD control panel": http://download.microsoft.com/download/7/b/6/7b6abd84-7841-4978-96f5-bd58df02efa2/winxpvirtualcdcontrolpanel_21.exe - John From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 22 19:06:19 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:06:19 -0700 Subject: unreadable HP cartridges Message-ID: <42B9FCFB.1090705@bitsavers.org> Has the on-tape format of 98xx HP85 or 264x carts been documented somewhere? Did HP use different encoding schemes in their different product lines? I dug through the stuff on the 264x terminals that I just put up, and they don't mention anything in detail about the tape format itself. If you REALLY wanted to try recovering a bad tape, you could digitize the analog info from the read amp and reconstruct it with software (assuming you knew what the format was) It may not be too bad with the HP DC100 style tapes, since I beleive the heads are fixed, like the DEC TU58s. From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Jun 22 20:08:59 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:08:59 -0500 Subject: unreadable HP cartridges In-Reply-To: <42B9FCFB.1090705@bitsavers.org> References: <42B9FCFB.1090705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42BA0BAB.80701@pacbell.net> Al Kossow wrote: > Has the on-tape format of 98xx HP85 or 264x carts been documented > somewhere? Funny enough, I happened to be looking for something else and found this in the HP 9825B Desktop Computer Service Manual, page 4-12: Digital information is stored on the tape using a delta distance encoding scheme. The "1" distance is approximately 1.75 times longer than the "0" distance. The magnetic polarity is irrelevant, only the distance is important. Since the tape is driven at a constant speed, the time elapsed between flux transitions is measured. ... Reading from the Tape Reading from the tape is more complex than writing it. Variations in timing and tape speed from system to system must be accounted for. To allow for these variations the circuit detects the ratio of the "1" time to the "0" time, not the actual elapsed time. So the first thing that has to be done when reading a particular tpae is to esablish the duration of a "0" time on the tape. Tape protocol dictates that a gap will be followed immediately by twelve flux transitions with the "0" spacing. These are used to esablish a reference for the data which follows on the tape. (then there are some details about the actual circuit) From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 22 20:06:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > So it's up to you to post them to the KB if you think they are worthwhile. > > For the record, if I've posted anything pnblically (including to this > list), then I have no objections to it being added to FAQs, the KB, > etc... I do ask that my name or e-mail address is somehow attached to it, > though, for obvious reasons. I've so far committed at least 5 of your messages to the KB, and put your name to it. Basically, you ARE the KB at this point (not to minimize anyone else's contributions of course). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 22 20:16:49 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:16:49 -0400 Subject: unreadable HP cartridges In-Reply-To: <42BA0BAB.80701@pacbell.net> References: <42B9FCFB.1090705@bitsavers.org> <42BA0BAB.80701@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <42BA0D81.nail67C1ZWMPB@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Digital information is stored on the tape using a delta distance > encoding scheme. The "1" distance is approximately 1.75 times > longer than the "0" distance. The magnetic polarity is > irrelevant, only the distance is important. This is very similar to the Apple II cassette modulation scheme. Hmm.. Woz worked for HP at the time... If you look at other early cassette tape "standards" they tend to be more FSK-like than distance-encoding type. e.b. Kansas City Standard. Tim. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 22 20:21:43 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:21:43 -0500 Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface References: Message-ID: <000801c57791$ea7952b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote (re: Tony) > I've so far committed at least 5 of your messages to the KB, and put your > name to it. Basically, you ARE the KB at this point (not to minimize > anyone else's contributions of course). Hey, not to minimalize Tony's contributions which are sincerely appreciated, but there is a lot more than 5 entries in the KB. Jay From rcini at optonline.net Wed Jun 22 20:30:18 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:30:18 -0400 Subject: Parallel ASCII keyboard data needed Message-ID: <003401c57793$1d955170$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I just received a parallel ASCII keyboard and I'm looking for pinout data on the keyboard itself. There's a 2x20 card edge connector on the right-hand side. Two power pins are identifyable on the foil side. The keyboard contains a GI AY5-2376 chip for which the datasheet was kindly supplied by various list members earlier in the week. The keyboard is manufactured by Clare-Pendar. It has the following numbers on the back "721017-K2" and "P/N SW1366". Before I start probing with a meter I wanted to poll the list first for data. Thanks in advance. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 22 20:34:29 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:34:29 -0500 Subject: unreadable HP cartridges References: <001d01c57772$93430ff0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.32.20050622191410.009bb490@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <007f01c57793$b30f0110$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Joe wrote..... > I still have a bottle of it but what good would it do to know the binary > pattern? You couldn't program a new tape with it. Uh, yes you could. The bits revealed on the tape could be read optically. Build something like an optical paper tape reader mechanism but with much better optics. Then take the data to a system with mag tape and write a new one. Just a thought. Perhaps a stupid one, but a thought nontheless :> Jay From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 22 20:38:29 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface In-Reply-To: <000801c57791$ea7952b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Jay West wrote: > Sellam wrote (re: Tony) > > I've so far committed at least 5 of your messages to the KB, and put your > > name to it. Basically, you ARE the KB at this point (not to minimize > > anyone else's contributions of course). > Hey, not to minimalize Tony's contributions which are sincerely appreciated, > but there is a lot more than 5 entries in the KB. Sure, sure. I didn't mean to imply that mine are the only ones. But there are only 31 articles. That's pretty sad. There should be about 10 times that by now. This is about the time that everyone should feel guilty and go over and add something useful to the KB. http://www.classiccmp.org/kb -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Jun 22 21:52:05 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:52:05 -0400 Subject: rescue needed (dec pdp & vax, rt11, maybe DG) In-Reply-To: <003e01c5775e$df6b9cd0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <003e01c5775e$df6b9cd0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42BA23D5.2040208@compsys.to> >Jay West wrote: > I've been in contact with an individual representing a university who > has a metric butt-load of software and documentation for various > systems. Primarily DEC PDP-11/RT11, some vax, and possibly some DG. He > seemed to key in on RT11 software & Docs, as well as DEC handbooks, etc. > > He is located in north east Alabama, east and slightly north of > birmingham. I would like to see Jerome Fine get first perusal of any > RT11 images. The donator's primary concern is that this load of stuff > NOT hit E-bay, and instead be scanned and archived for the public. > Resting in private hands is ok, as he'd like to see the stuff get use > as well. He just doesn't want to see someone turn a buck on ebay with > it. I suspect most if not all of us would agree to this. > > So, anyone in north east alabama want to organize a pickup and > distribution (probably to Al at some point for archiving)? Jerome Fine replies: THANK YOU, Jay, VERY MUCH!! With respect to the hard copy documentation, it is probably best if Al (or someone else who is prepared to scan the documents) receive this material. The hardware is already an area where I am overloaded. BUT, the images of ALL and any files would help a great deal. Note that I do NOT require any original material, although I can probably still help with RL02 packs or floppy media. I can also read TK50 (even TK70) tapes and any 50 pin SCSI hard drives if they exist. MFM and ESDI hard drives would require the same controller, although I have RQDX1,2,3 and Sigma ESDI controllers. ALL RT-11 binary distributions would be helpful - even if just to check the current versions, specifically V04.00 and later (after February 1980). Prior versions of RT-11 may not be complete, so these could be extremely helpful. Layered products are always helpful: FORTRAN IV and FORTRAN 77 Basic and Multi-User Basic Decus C and DEC C Pascal Other commercial applications????? Anyone who actually picks up this stuff, please contact me regarding machine readable RT-11 files, especially all RT-11 and layered products distributions. There is a file (RT11V10.ISO.zip) at: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ which can be burned to a CD (first UnZiped) which contains 13 RT-11 versions (V01-15 to V05.03). Should there be sufficient interest, then sooner (rather than later - otherwise later) RT11V20.ISO will be produced which also contains layered products. All ISO files will be shared without charge by having them available for free download where there is no conflict with the existing policy of the copyright holder. For those ISO files where there is a conflict, they will be shared privately with individuals who will be able to share the files at a future date as opposed to being held only by myself. This will avoid a future situation where they might be lost - although based on my personal experience, they really seems to be insufficient interest for me to worry. But since I do the work for the personal challenge, the one or two individuals who actually have used the CD (I was on the telephone with that fellow one day when he needed to use the CD for the first time and I helped talk him through booting the CD on a real DEC PDP-11 with an RD42) are sufficient to keep up my interest! As for eBay, I can't stop anyone for including the ISO file in a compilation, but it will not be my doing. Since that has not happened after many years, I can be hopeful that it will not ever take place. RT-11 Distributions V5-0 is available to those who have a legal license for V05.07 of RT-11 and contains the additional 11 versions from V05.04 to V05.07 of RT-11. Both CDs can boot RT-11 with V05.03 being on the first RT-11 partition of each CD. Alternatively, the ISO image file of the CD can be used as a container file with SIMH or E11 to boot RT-11. Mentec allows hobby users to legally use SIMH and V05.03 of RT-11, so V1-0 of the CD (actually the container file RT11DV10.ISO) can legally be used by hobby users with SIMH. Just: ATTACH RQ0: RT11DV10.ISO SET RQ0: LOCK BOOT RQ0: Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Jun 22 21:53:08 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:53:08 -0400 Subject: rescue needed (dec pdp & vax, rt11, maybe DG) In-Reply-To: <42B9D9BD.883A773F@guntersville.net> References: <003e01c5775e$df6b9cd0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42B9D9BD.883A773F@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <42BA2414.3070305@compsys.to> >John C. Ellingboe wrote: >>Jay West wrote: > >>I've been in contact with an individual representing a university who has a >>metric butt-load of software and documentation for various systems. >>Primarily DEC PDP-11/RT11, some vax, and possibly some DG. He seemed to key >>in on RT11 software & Docs, as well as DEC handbooks, etc. >> >>He is located in north east Alabama, east and slightly north of birmingham. >>I would like to see Jerome Fine get first perusal of any RT11 images. The >>[Snip] >> >> >Where in north east Alabama. I am located in Guntersville, >about 40 miles south east of Huntsville and about 75 miles north >north east of Birmingham. > Jerome Fine replies: As Jay mentioned, I am especially interested in all RT-11 distributions and layered products so that they can be archived as a single set of files - I prefer to a CD ISO image file which can also be used with a PDP-11 emulator such as SIMH or E11. I do NOT require originals, although I might be able to help with recovery. Please arrange to allow me to download any RT-11 files and programs which may be copied to an ftp site. I am available to help with the recovery process!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 22:14:00 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:14:00 -0700 Subject: Stride 440 available Message-ID: Going through the front of my container I found a Stride 440 that I need to sell. Made in Reno, Nevada! I believe it is a 68020 machine with 3 megs of ram and a 60 meg MFM Fujitu hard drive and is a decendant of the Sage running p-system. Looking at the cardset it appears it might have been upgraded from the original 68010 to a 68020. It also looks to me that the modem chipset was never installed. It has a three board set with a smaller board in the middle of the larger two boards. I think the small one is the 68020. The case shows some damage however none is visible to the electronics or drives. Missing a floppy drive cover, from the layout of the cables a second was never installed.. I have not powered it up and am not going to, I will leave that up to the new owner. Pictures at http://members.aol.com/innfosale/stride/front.jpg http://members.aol.com/innfosale/stride/back.jpg http://members.aol.com/innfosale/stride/inside.jpg http://members.aol.com/innfosale/stride/label.jpg http://members.aol.com/innfosale/stride/inside2.jpg and two kind of panoramic photos with canon photostich. http://members.aol.com/innfosale/stride/panfront.jpg http://members.aol.com/innfosale/stride/panback.jpg More and higher res pics avalable Given it is unusual I thought I would offer it to the list first. From my google search it is a fairly rare machine. I could find no pictures at all. I need to sell it so I am open to offers. Anyone interested? Out of the dig is an original 5150 CPU, a 5 slot 2nd gen two floppy, CGA, AST mem & I/O. A Vector MZ5 S100 MF with 8 cards I have yet to inventory, no drives. On ebay at the moment is the last Teletype model 43 I have, sale number 5210816476 ending in a couple of days. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From john at guntersville.net Wed Jun 22 22:28:06 2005 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:28:06 -0500 Subject: rescue needed (dec pdp & vax, rt11, maybe DG) References: <003e01c5775e$df6b9cd0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42B9D9BD.883A773F@guntersville.net> <42BA2414.3070305@compsys.to> Message-ID: <42BA2C46.78A79C5@guntersville.net> "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > > >John C. Ellingboe wrote: > > >>Jay West wrote: > > > >>I've been in contact with an individual representing a university who has a > >>metric butt-load of software and documentation for various systems. > >>Primarily DEC PDP-11/RT11, some vax, and possibly some DG. He seemed to key > >>in on RT11 software & Docs, as well as DEC handbooks, etc. > >> > >>He is located in north east Alabama, east and slightly north of birmingham. > >>I would like to see Jerome Fine get first perusal of any RT11 images. The > >>[Snip] > >> > >> > >Where in north east Alabama. I am located in Guntersville, > >about 40 miles south east of Huntsville and about 75 miles north > >north east of Birmingham. > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > As Jay mentioned, I am especially interested in all > RT-11 distributions and layered products so that they > can be archived as a single set of files - I prefer to > a CD ISO image file which can also be used with a > PDP-11 emulator such as SIMH or E11. > > I do NOT require originals, although I might be able to > help with recovery. Please arrange to allow me to > download any RT-11 files and programs which may be > copied to an ftp site. I am available to help with > the recovery process!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > -- > If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail > address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk > e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be > obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the > 'at' with the four digits of the current year. It has been requested that you, Jay West and Al Kossow receive inventory list as soon as they are available. From vp at cs.drexel.edu Wed Jun 22 23:51:10 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:51:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More HP Series 80: Waveform Analysis Pac rescued Message-ID: <20050623045110.BDBBD3BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> I'd love to add this pac to the www.series80.org collection. I live in Philadelphia, so please send me email with the cost of shipping and I'll send you the money. I can scan the listings as bitmaps, but I don't have the time to make HP-85 programs out of them. If you require the originals returned to you after I make copies let me know and I will return them to you ASAP. Thanks **vp From tomj at wps.com Thu Jun 23 00:15:09 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unreadable HP cartridges In-Reply-To: <20050622162732.E85841@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050622162732.E85841@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050622220921.X1083@localhost> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > It USETA be readily available from professional video places for lining up > reel to reel tape and splicing it without losing synch. HEY HEY HEY we have standards here! THat's spelled YOUSTA. Get with duh program. >> pattern? You couldn't program a new tape with it. > > ... but with sufficient time and effort, you could MANUALLY > read the tape :-) > How long would an entire tape take? More seriously, how about a semi-automated process to read the data *optically* from severely damaged tapes? Drag the tape slowly, oxide up, coat with colloidal FeO, run it past a camera. Post-processed video data could be 'decoded', bad spots stopped at, manually interpolated/ repaired (human visual acuity is pretty damn good). From tomj at wps.com Thu Jun 23 02:02:31 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unreadable HP cartridges In-Reply-To: <20050622080931.9C2243BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20050622080931.9C2243BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <20050622235901.O1083@localhost> > I was thinking, what if we reverse the tape, so that the magnetic > head come in contact with the plastic backing and not the oxide. > Would it be possible to read the data then? Nice idea, but, signal strength at the head varies with the square of the distance between oxide and head, hence the need for contact. If it were readily possible it would have been done from the start -- it would eliminate contact wear. Finally, it's tape flexing that knocks the oxide off, and spooling the tape *probably* does most of the damage, thoguh not scraping it across a head probably *would* help. From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Jun 23 04:44:50 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:44:50 +0100 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: <42B73473.nail99I1MBE40@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20050620203822.8D8DD70CA1DB@bitsavers.org> <42B73473.nail99I1MBE40@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <42BA8492.2050000@gjcp.net> Tim Shoppa wrote: >>cycle-accurate MAME processor cores. > > > For a Unibus PDP-11, what is "cycle-accurate"? Memory access > waits until the memory says it's done. I suppose you could come > up with some numbers not too far off for some memory implementation > and build around that. (don't forget modify as well as read and > write timings!) > > Tim. > Wouldn't it be hard to tell, if you were unsure how accurate the timing was? How do you know your timing routine is actually responding within a certain time? I'm reminded of my late father testing a homebrewed frequency counter, finding it to be inaccurate, using it to measure its own 1MHz source (which of course read bang on 1MHz), then realising that this was silly and he'd need to borrow another frequency counter from work to discover that his 1MHz crystal seemed closer to 900kHz... Gordon. From unibus at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 07:49:25 2005 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:49:25 +1000 Subject: Old Core Memory Boards In-Reply-To: <200506222036.j5MKaGFb074878@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506222036.j5MKaGFb074878@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > From: "Phil Spanner" [Various snips...] > I just received an email from a close friend that used to work for a memory > manufacturer called Fabri Tek Inc. here in Amery WI. > Manufacture Fabri Tek Inc. Date of manufacture circa 1970 Does your friend have any recollection of a Fabri Tek memory expansion for a DEC PDP-11/20? This would have been a 19in rackmount with Unibus interface. I ended up with complete memory unit, interface cables, some documentation, etc, but unfortunately not the processor. Believe the memory was removed from a PDP-11/20 but I don't have confirmation. Regards, Garry From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 23 08:15:18 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:15:18 -0400 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? References: <20050622165132.48A6F70CA406@bitsavers.org> <200506222216.j5MMGgA9000707@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <17082.46566.183118.84663@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: >> > Ethernet is another good way; DECnet is available on Linux. >> >> That assumes a fair amount of software working on the 11 side. Zane> Can a PDP-11 running DECnet talk reliably to a Linux box Zane> running DECnet? It's been probably 5+ years since I played with Zane> it, but when I checked last, it couldn't. If it can now, that Zane> could be rather handy. I've only tried it with RSTS (in E11) and that seemed ok. Mostly I was running it to do development ("set host" on Linux supporting the RSTS network terminal protocol). But I'm pretty sure I tried some other things, like NFT. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 23 08:18:20 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:18:20 -0400 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? References: <17081.45966.911017.484225@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200506222220.j5MMKA0l000871@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <17082.46748.102533.478988@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: Zane> I didn't have any problem with getting RSTS/E to start to boot Zane> off of CD-R, where I had problems was with it not liking the Zane> fact it was on a Read-Only filesystem. If I had a better Zane> understanding of RSTS/E, I suspect this could be overcome. Zane> I've not had the time to look further into the matter. RSTS boots fine off a read-only file system. You probably want to set the "read only pack" flag in the pack label. But it assumes that a read-only file system is a kit, so it autostarts the installation script. That may not be what you want. If not, control/C should get you a CLI prompt. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 23 08:19:43 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:19:43 -0400 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? References: <17081.46148.252832.370011@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200506222222.j5MMMFMF000942@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <17082.46831.104216.233238@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: Zane> As I understand it, the issue was with variable byte blocks. I Zane> had zero issues installing RSTS/E, and I think a couple layered Zane> products off of 4mm DAT. However, DECnet/E would not install Zane> off of DAT. You mean variable length blocks? If it doesn't support that, it isn't a proper tape. Proper tapes handle any block size, odd or even, from 14 up to at least 8k or so. paul From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 23 08:59:30 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:59:30 -0500 Subject: unreadable HP cartridges [now Magnasee] In-Reply-To: <20050622220921.X1083@localhost> References: <20050622162732.E85841@shell.lmi.net> <20050622220921.X1083@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050623085301.0567fb38@mail> At 12:15 AM 6/23/2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >Drag the tape slowly, oxide up, coat with colloidal FeO, run it >past a camera. Post-processed video data could be 'decoded', bad >spots stopped at, manually interpolated/ repaired (human visual >acuity is pretty damn good). I think the magnetic approach will win because that's what you want to recover. In a race between a tape head and a relatively coarse layer of Mangasee, I think the tape head wins. You haven't established whether indefinite supplies of Magnasee are available. One google-bit yesterday suggested that the solvent was carbon tet. If someone still had a NOS case of it you might be in luck. Where the GNU Radio project wants to build a software radio, I think we also need a mostly-software VCR: something with a tape transport mechanism and a scanning digitizing head plus software to un-vertical, un-bit, un-helix, un-whatever the data plus signal analysis to bring it back to life. When you finish this project, please call - I have some old 8mm videotapes of the kids that went out of whack when the circa '92 Sony camcorder's surface-mount caps went south. Something's recorded on the tapes, the camcorder was able to play it back after it was recorded, but something else was drifting over time and later the tape wouldn't play. - John From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Jun 23 09:09:13 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe (FireflyST)) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:09:13 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Aww crap, I blew something (PDP-11) Message-ID: <12516658.1119535753655.JavaMail.root@wamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Well, I was hooking up my KY11-LB front panel to the machine I have moved into a BA11-K, and after testing it several times, I saw a (not very big) flash from near the PSU and the machine quit working. I inspected the power supply modules (two H7441 regulators and one H745) and it wasn???t fuses, so I am baffled as to what happened. I was SOOOO close too, I had got the front panel lights working, the RUN light flashed on power up like it should have, then I realized the power switch was on backwards, cause when you set it from DC OFF to POWER ON (or whatever, this is off the top of my head) it would turn off. I switched the leads, then that???s when it popped. I had the leads connected to J3 on the power distribution portion of the power supply (the module that has the power cord attached to it) I hope there???s someone on here who can help me, I???m good with computers, but I???m not an electrical engineer, so I???m lost! Thanks! Julian From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 23 09:51:34 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:51:34 -0700 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <17082.46831.104216.233238@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <17081.46148.252832.370011@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200506222222.j5MMMFMF000942@onyx.spiritone.com> <17082.46831.104216.233238@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: At 9:19 AM -0400 6/23/05, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: > > Zane> As I understand it, the issue was with variable byte blocks. I > Zane> had zero issues installing RSTS/E, and I think a couple layered > Zane> products off of 4mm DAT. However, DECnet/E would not install > Zane> off of DAT. > >You mean variable length blocks? If it doesn't support that, it isn't >a proper tape. Proper tapes handle any block size, odd or even, from >14 up to at least 8k or so. Yes, that's what I mean. It is my understanding from when I got some help figuring this out (I think by this list), that was the problem. It wouldn't install from DAT, but had zero issues with TK50. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 23 10:02:38 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:02:38 -0400 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? References: <17081.46148.252832.370011@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200506222222.j5MMMFMF000942@onyx.spiritone.com> <17082.46831.104216.233238@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17082.53006.428691.211415@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: Zane> At 9:19 AM -0400 6/23/05, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: >> Zane> As I understand it, the issue was with variable byte blocks. I Zane> had zero issues installing RSTS/E, and I think a couple layered Zane> products off of 4mm DAT. However, DECnet/E would not install Zane> off of DAT. >> You mean variable length blocks? If it doesn't support that, it >> isn't a proper tape. Proper tapes handle any block size, odd or >> even, from 14 up to at least 8k or so. Zane> Yes, that's what I mean. It is my understanding from when I Zane> got some help figuring this out (I think by this list), that Zane> was the problem. It wouldn't install from DAT, but had zero Zane> issues with TK50. Ok. RSTS does assume/require that tapes are designed by competent designers. I'm surprised you didn't run into similar issues with other operating systems. paul From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jun 23 10:41:20 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:41:20 -0500 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <17082.53006.428691.211415@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <17081.46148.252832.370011@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200506222222.j5MMMFMF000942@onyx.spiritone.com> <17082.46831.104216.233238@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17082.53006.428691.211415@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42BAD820.4040207@mdrconsult.com> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: > Zane> Yes, that's what I mean. It is my understanding from when I > Zane> got some help figuring this out (I think by this list), that > Zane> was the problem. It wouldn't install from DAT, but had zero > Zane> issues with TK50. > > Ok. RSTS does assume/require that tapes are designed by competent > designers. I'm surprised you didn't run into similar issues with > other operating systems. Well, I'm not sure about Zane, but I've had that kind of issues with RSTS/E, not just layered products, with two DDS drives that I assume *was* designed by competent engineers. They were a TLZ06 and a TLZ07, both clean and tested good. And, as in Zane's experience, the same tape image installed from TK50 (TZ30 drive) on the same 11/83 without complaint. Doc From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 23 11:54:03 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unreadable HP cartridges Message-ID: <200506231654.JAA15733@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> Ok, use a magnetic fingerprinting powder on it ;) Actually, I've heard (and >> seen) there IS a liquid solution that will let you visibly see the dots on >> mag tape. > >There is. It generally goes under the name of 'Magnasee' and is a >colloidal suspension of iron oxide in some suitable volatile liquid. I >have no idea where you get it nowadays, though. > >-tony > > Hi Would the stuff used for magnaflex work. This is available through most machine shop supply houses. Another thought would be to stablize the media with something like art spray ( acrylic ). A vary thin coat should only reduce the highs a little but should stablize the coating. I'd try it on a spare tape first. Dwight From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Jun 23 12:20:02 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:20:02 -0500 Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... References: <200506221829.j5MITp7K023637@keith.ezwind.net><000001c5775c$a7fb7ba0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <17081.46953.359818.890994@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <000701c57817$cacd99e0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Paul Koning" Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 2:09 PM > Clearly a scanner can't hold copyright in the original content. That > leaves compilation copyright. But it's hard to see how that would > apply when the material published is simply a full page by page scan > of the original. > > I have a scanned flight manual (US DOD publication, so no copyright on > the original -- so clearly there are no issues with selling the > scans). The scanner put a copyright notice on the scanned file. I > can't see how that is valid. (Hm, that may explain why I saw a copy > of that CD sold by someone else. Impolite, yes. Illegal? I wonder.) > > Hm, I wonder if the same comment applies to reprints of old books -- > from Lindsay Publications, Dover Press, etc., other than new > introductions and the like of course. > > paul Most all of the manuals I have posted on my site are scanned by others. Most of the manuals I scan I send to others and either don't post on my site or post them via mirroring. I scan manuals that would otherwise be unavailable and either with the copyright holders permission or from copyright holders that can not be found. Yes some copyright holders are available and have given permission to one degree or another including Alpha-Micro, Cromemco, and DRI (UCSD has not given specific permission but they used files off my site to put on their site :) ). I have not posted manuals from other sites (excepting mirroring the whole site) but I have seen a certain amount of manuals included in my mirrors that came from bitsavers and others. I have always given permission for others to post manuals I scan and do not require any sort of acknowledgement with the exception of the Alpha-Micro material that Alpha-Micro insists on giving individual permission. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 13:53:29 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:53:29 +0100 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay Message-ID: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> Anyone got some space and 3 phase ? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5211981884 Dan From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Jun 23 03:08:04 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:08:04 +0100 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:20:10 PDT." <200506222220.j5MMKA0l000871@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200506230808.JAA18483@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Zane H. Healy said: > I didn't have any problem with getting RSTS/E to start to boot off of CD-R, > where I had problems was with it not liking the fact it was on a Read-Only > filesystem. If I had a better understanding of RSTS/E, I suspect this could > be overcome. I've not had the time to look further into the matter. I think RSTS/E writes or re-writes something during the boot process to check that it was properly shut down last time it was used. The quickest way to check would probably be to look at the code in SHUTUP.BAS -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Jun 23 14:03:00 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:03:00 -0500 Subject: FORTRAN books (was: Classiccmp cartoon sighting In-Reply-To: <20050622150059.C80195@shell.lmi.net> References: <005a01c5776b$923a56b0$1502a8c0@ACER> <200506220211.j5M2BgTf016420@keith.ezwind.net> <002901c57738$9451f440$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <20050622131930.I80195@shell.lmi.net> <005a01c5776b$923a56b0$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050623135957.0cef5bb8@localhost> At 03:22 PM 6/22/2005 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, SP wrote: > > Are these available there ? They are unavailable here in Spain from years > > ago. And I remember to learn Cobol with one McCracken manual. > >The Spanish translations of McCracken show up occasionally at the flea >markets, but not very often. The cover looks the same, other than the >difference in title. My colleague with the FORTRAN book won't be back >until December. I'll ask her if she is willing to part with it, but since >she has kept all of her old APL and RPG books, I doubt it. > >A quick search on abebooks.com turned up a bunch of German books, one >Italian, one Romanian!, and only one Spanish one (kinda expensive!): >http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=258879038 My Fortran 77 Programming (c) 1978 book is still sitting here on a shelf. It's by Brainerd, Goldberg, and Gross. Is that valuable? How about this one: Introduction to Programming, 2nd ed, September 1970, Digitial PDP-8 Series. [Fiction] "Tiger gotta hunt. Bird gotta fly. Man gotta sit and wonder why, why, why. Tiger gotta sleep. Bird gotta land. Man gotta tell himself he understand." --Kurt Vonnegut Jr. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 23 13:14:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:14:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP50960A In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 22, 5 11:48:39 pm Message-ID: [Apologies for following up my own message] > > Sounds like some variant of the 9817 / 9000/210 > > It sure looks like a 9817, and the backplane has a 09817- part number, > which would indicate that it came from that machine. The mainboard has a > 50960- part number, but it's on a stuck-on (HP printed) label, not in the > etch or silk-screen. There doesn't appear to be any other number under > the label, though. Alas, having looked at the manuals on hpmusuem.net, I think the machine is somewhat different. The main logic board of the 9817 would seem to include an HP-HIL port and a sound circult as standard (there was an odd hole in the intneral metalwork of my machine, from the diagrams in the manual it would appear this was for an internal speaker). Those are on one of the expansion cards in my machine. I've still not powered it up. I am hoping there is some what to make it do something other than act as an SRM server (since I have no more SRM stuff...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 23 13:45:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:45:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Aww crap, I blew something (PDP-11) In-Reply-To: <12516658.1119535753655.JavaMail.root@wamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> from "Julian Wolfe" at Jun 23, 5 09:09:13 am Message-ID: > > Well, I was hooking up my KY11-LB front panel to the machine I have moved= > into a BA11-K, and after testing it several times, I saw a (not very big= > ) flash from near the PSU and the machine quit working. I inspected the = > power supply modules (two H7441 regulators and one H745) and it wasn=E2=80= > =99t fuses, so I am baffled as to what happened. =20 'Near the PSU' or inside the PSU? Could it be something on one of the PCBs? When you turn it on now, does _anything_ happen? Do the fans start? Does the relay in the power control module -- under the mains transformer -- pull in? I would start by going back to basics. Unplug the backplane power connectors from the distrubtion PCB under the machine. Unplug the connectors from the regulator bricks. What you want to do is at least get the transformer to power up again. > > =20 > > I was SOOOO close too, I had got the front panel lights working, the RUN = > light flashed on power up like it should have, then I realized the power = > switch was on backwards, cause when you set it from DC OFF to POWER ON (o= > r whatever, this is off the top of my head) it would turn off. I switche= > d the leads, then that=E2=80=99s when it popped. What exactly did you swap round, and where? > > =20 > > I had the leads connected to J3 on the power distribution portion of the = > power supply (the module that has the power cord attached to it) That sounds right. On the front of that module (I call it the power controller, I have no idea what the official name is), there's a 4 pin connector that's the mains to the transformer primary windings. And 3 pin connecotrs (on both the front and the back) that are the normal DEC power control bus I mentioned here the other day. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 23 13:19:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:19:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: unreadable HP cartridges In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050622191410.009bb490@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 22, 5 07:14:10 pm Message-ID: > I still have a bottle of it but what good would it do to know the binary > pattern? You couldn't program a new tape with it. Maybe not with the standard HP controller , but you could, surely, send pulses with the right spacing to a tape drive to recreate the pattern on a new tape. [1] Although I think you could with an HP9877 or a 9825 running special software, since those controllers are very dumb devices, they don't even do any form of serial-parallel conversion. I am not so sure about the 9845 controller, it's got an HP custom bybrid in the middle with 64 pins. Many of them go straight to the I/O bus, the rest go to the tape drive, amplified read signal, etc. All the interesting stuff is inside that hybrid... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 23 13:51:58 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:51:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9154 hard disk drive pinout Message-ID: I had been looking for this info for over 10 years, and I finally found it this morning while looking around hpmuseum.net for the manuals on the 9817. I looked at the service manuals for the 9153/9154, and found what is probably the only useful bit of info in those manuals (I really don't intend to use a torque wrench to tighten the top cover screws....) The HP9154 (certainly the later versions) use an HP hard disk drive with a single 40 pin power and data connector. It's a strange HP interface, with raw data and an 8 bit control bus. And from what I remember, one end goes to an ASIC on the 9154 cotnroller board, the other to an ASIC in the drive, so it's hard to work out what all the signals are... Anyway, from that manual, here's the pinout of the cable. Please save this soemwhere, if you need it, you _really_ need it.... 1 Rd Data 2 Gnd 3 Wr Data 4 Gnd 5 Wr Gate 6 Gnd 7 4MHz Clk 8 Gnd 9 Rd A-D converter 10 Gnd 11 +5V 12 Gnd 13 +5V 14 Gnd 15 +12V (Motor) 16 Gnd (Motor) 17 +12V (Motor) 18 Gnd (Motor) 19 Dr Sel 0 20 Dr Sel 1 21 Dr Sel 2 22 Dr Sel 3 23 Wr D-A Converter 24 NA/B 25 Sector Pulse 26 Index Pulse 27 Wr NIC Chip 28 Reset 29 +12V (Motor) 30 +12V (Motor) 31 Fault 32 +12V 33 Data Bus 7 34 Data Bus 0 35 Data Bus 6 36 Data Bus 1 37 Data Bus 5 38 Data Bus 2 39 Data Bus 4 40 Data Bus 3 -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 23 13:25:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:25:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: unreadable HP cartridges In-Reply-To: <42B9FCFB.1090705@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jun 22, 5 05:06:19 pm Message-ID: > > Has the on-tape format of 98xx HP85 or 264x carts been documented somewhere? > Did HP use different encoding schemes in their different product lines? I ma pretty sure the 9825 and 9845 formats were somewhat similar, and that the 9815 was very different. Although all 3 machines used much the same tape drive (and the same PCB containing the head switching circuit, read preamp, etc). The hardware of the HP85 tape drive is somewhat documented in the service manual (on the MoHPC CD-ROM set). The hardware of the 9815 and 9825 is on the HPCC scheamtics CD-ROM. The former has one ASIC for all the tape drive functions, so you can't tell too much about it. The latter are all standard chips, but a lot of the work is done in software, alas. Thinking about it, there must be differences between the software interface to the 9825 and 9845 controllers. The former does DMA, with one bit at a time going to the LSB of a memory word (it does no serial-parallel translation!). IIRC, it only uses the low 8 data lines on the I/O bus. The latter doesn't seem to do DMA, but all 16 data lines go to the controller hybrid. > It may not be too bad with the HP DC100 style tapes, since I beleive the > heads are fixed, like the DEC TU58s. Correct. I can't remeber if it's 2 tracks or 4 (I think the latter), but there's a schematic, and the drive itself does very little processing of the signals. One of the pins on the drive connector is the output of the read preamp (the main amplifier is on the controller board). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 23 13:28:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:28:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: unreadable HP cartridges In-Reply-To: <42BA0D81.nail67C1ZWMPB@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 22, 5 09:16:49 pm Message-ID: > > > Digital information is stored on the tape using a delta distance > > encoding scheme. The "1" distance is approximately 1.75 times > > longer than the "0" distance. The magnetic polarity is > > irrelevant, only the distance is important. > > This is very similar to the Apple II cassette modulation scheme. > > Hmm.. Woz worked for HP at the time... > > If you look at other early cassette tape "standards" they tend > to be more FSK-like than distance-encoding type. e.b. Kansas > City Standard. The other comman standard at about this time -- used by the HP 9830 on cassette tapes, on the Tekky 4051 on QIC cartrisges and by the HP65/67/41 on magnetic cards was to have 2 tracks. A pulse on one of the tracks is a '0' bit, a pulse on the other is a '1' bit. Coincident pulses on both tracks might be used for something like a file marker or a byte marker (the HP 9830 does the latter). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 23 13:31:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:31:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC M8350 - KA8E posibus interface In-Reply-To: <000801c57791$ea7952b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jun 22, 5 08:21:43 pm Message-ID: > Hey, not to minimalize Tony's contributions which are sincerely appreciated, > but there is a lot more than 5 entries in the KB. YEs, but to be fair, many of them came from the FAQ, and I am quite sure some of my ideas ended up there .... (Yes, this is a good thing. No I am not claiming to be the KB...) -tony From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 23 14:16:11 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:16:11 -0400 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? References: <200506222220.j5MMKA0l000871@onyx.spiritone.com> <200506230808.JAA18483@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <17083.2683.951408.464207@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Stan" == Stan Barr writes: Stan> Hi, Zane H. Healy said: >> I didn't have any problem with getting RSTS/E to start to boot off >> of CD-R, where I had problems was with it not liking the fact it >> was on a Read-Only filesystem. If I had a better understanding of >> RSTS/E, I suspect this could be overcome. I've not had the time >> to look further into the matter. Stan> I think RSTS/E writes or re-writes something during the boot Stan> process to check that it was properly shut down last time it Stan> was used. The quickest way to check would probably be to look Stan> at the code in SHUTUP.BAS You're thinking about the "cleanly dismounted" flag in the pack label. That's handled in the kernel, not in shutup.bas. In any case, that flag is written at mount, and again at dismount, but ONLY if the pack is a read-write pack and being mounted read-write. If you mount the pack read-only (via the command line option, for example) or the pack is marked as read-only in the pack label, then the "mounted" flag is NOT touched at any time. Read-only means what it says. If you mount a pack that way, RSTS will NOT write it, ever. That feature is used in a bunch of places; distribution media is one example. Those would normally be loaded with the hardware write-lock switch set, but whether ot not that is set, the software write-lock flag in the pack label will tell RSTS never to write to it. paul From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 23 14:59:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:59:02 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN books (was: Classiccmp cartoon sighting In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050623135957.0cef5bb8@localhost> References: <20050622150059.C80195@shell.lmi.net> <005a01c5776b$923a56b0$1502a8c0@ACER> <200506220211.j5M2BgTf016420@keith.ezwind.net> <002901c57738$9451f440$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <20050622131930.I80195@shell.lmi.net> <005a01c5776b$923a56b0$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050623155902.00a48ab0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:03 PM 6/23/05 -0500, you wrote: >At 03:22 PM 6/22/2005 -0700, you wrote: >>On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, SP wrote: >> > Are these available there ? They are unavailable here in Spain from years >> > ago. And I remember to learn Cobol with one McCracken manual. >> >>The Spanish translations of McCracken show up occasionally at the flea >>markets, but not very often. The cover looks the same, other than the >>difference in title. My colleague with the FORTRAN book won't be back >>until December. I'll ask her if she is willing to part with it, but since >>she has kept all of her old APL and RPG books, I doubt it. >> >>A quick search on abebooks.com turned up a bunch of German books, one >>Italian, one Romanian!, and only one Spanish one (kinda expensive!): >>http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=258879038 > >My Fortran 77 Programming (c) 1978 book is still sitting here on a shelf. >It's by Brainerd, Goldberg, and Gross. Is that valuable? > >How about this one: Introduction to Programming, 2nd ed, September 1970, >Digitial PDP-8 Series. Or how about my 'PDP-8 Programming' by Southern? Printed in 1971 and originaly cost $15.00 Joe From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 23 15:48:24 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:48:24 -0400 Subject: PDP-8s and -10s References: <20050615220821.Y843@localhost> <17073.35348.349666.689806@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17083.8216.799487.924055@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Paul" == Paul Koning writes: >>>>> "Fred" == Fred N van Kempen writes: Fred> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >>> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Andy Holt wrote: >>> >>> > * I wonder what is the largest number of concurrent "tty" users >>> that is > reliably reported as having been run on a Unix system. Fred> I have seen installations with 300+ users online. Obviously, Fred> these were ran with terminal multiplexers, terminal servers and Fred> other kinds of smart front-ends, as to not kill the main system Fred> with line interrupts :) Paul> Not Unix but timesharing, and more demanding at that -- the Paul> University of Illinois PLATO system had 1000 terminals and most Paul> days hit its configured limit of 600 active users, in the Paul> 1970s, on a 10 MHz processor. Paul> Its modern day successor serves a lot more terminals than that; Paul> some vague memory says a million connect hours per month... Just got this bit of stats about that system: peak number of active users at any one time: 9037. That's on a SINGLE machine (an Alpha). I suspect that's a record for number of interactive users served by a single computer. Especially if you consider that these are interactive (key by key interaction) terminals -- not local forms editing terminals as in the classic airline reservation systems (SABRE). paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 23 15:39:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:39:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: unreadable HP cartridges In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 23, 5 07:25:46 pm Message-ID: > Correct. I can't remeber if it's 2 tracks or 4 (I think the latter), but No, I was wrong. It's a 2 track device. And it's clear it uses one track and then the other, it doesn't stick '1's on one track and '0's on the other. The signals on the drive connector (20 pin card edge) are a few power lines, the 2 ends of the motor (there is no motor control circuitry in the drive), the outputs of the op-amps for the EOT and Tacho sensors, TTL-level write data, write gate and track select, the output of the read preamp, an LED drive signal (if the drive has an in-use LED) and a power-OK signal to prevent glitching the tape at power-up/down. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 23 16:01:18 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP CS/80 'describe' cmd result list Message-ID: <20050623210118.6415470CA568@bitsavers.org> Has anyone made a list of what is returned by the CS/80 'describe' command (opcode 53) on the different models of discs? I think someone asked this a while ago, but I never saw anyone reply. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Jun 23 16:09:51 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:09:51 +0200 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-06-23 19:53:29 +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > Anyone got some space and 3 phase ? > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5211981884 I'd *love* to get this machine (trying to get one of those for about two years), but shipping from UK to Germany would probably kill me :( MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 23 17:46:30 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:46:30 -0700 Subject: HP50960A Message-ID: <42BB3BC6.5040900@bitsavers.org> I am hoping there is some what to make it do something other than act as an SRM server (since I have no more SRM stuff...) -- SRM coax cards are easy to find (there are a BUNCH on eBay right now for $10 ea) The hard thing to find is a stand-alone server (esp software) Digging on the list, someone had one running as late as 2003. May be a good thing to ping him to try to get the bits before they disappear. On the other hand, just finding DIO enet cards would probably be more useful. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 23 18:24:24 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:24:24 -0700 Subject: CS/80 disc geometry Message-ID: <42BB44A8.9070506@bitsavers.org> To (partially) answer my own question, there is some info in the NETBSD rd driver. (rd.h and rd.c) I guess no one has tried coding up a SS-80 or CS-80 drive simulator yet.. rd.c /* * Misc. HW description, indexed by sc_type. * Used for mapping 256-byte sectors for 512-byte sectors */ const struct rdidentinfo { u_int16_t ri_hwid; /* 2 byte HW id */ u_int16_t ri_maxunum; /* maximum allowed unit number */ char *ri_desc; /* drive type description */ int ri_nbpt; /* DEV_BSIZE blocks per track */ int ri_ntpc; /* tracks per cylinder */ int ri_ncyl; /* cylinders per unit */ int ri_nblocks; /* DEV_BSIZE blocks on disk */ } rdidentinfo[] = { { RD7946AID, 0, "7945A", NRD7945ABPT, NRD7945ATRK, 968, 108416 }, { RD9134DID, 1, "9134D", NRD9134DBPT, NRD9134DTRK, 303, 29088 }, { RD9134LID, 1, "9122S", NRD9122SBPT, NRD9122STRK, 77, 1232 }, { RD7912PID, 0, "7912P", NRD7912PBPT, NRD7912PTRK, 572, 128128 }, { RD7914PID, 0, "7914P", NRD7914PBPT, NRD7914PTRK, 1152, 258048 }, { RD7958AID, 0, "7958A", NRD7958ABPT, NRD7958ATRK, 1013, 255276 }, { RD7957AID, 0, "7957A", NRD7957ABPT, NRD7957ATRK, 1036, 159544 }, { RD7933HID, 0, "7933H", NRD7933HBPT, NRD7933HTRK, 1321, 789958 }, { RD9134LID, 1, "9134L", NRD9134LBPT, NRD9134LTRK, 973, 77840 }, { RD7936HID, 0, "7936H", NRD7936HBPT, NRD7936HTRK, 698, 600978 }, { RD7937HID, 0, "7937H", NRD7937HBPT, NRD7937HTRK, 698, 1116102 }, { RD7914CTID, 0, "7914CT", NRD7914PBPT, NRD7914PTRK, 1152, 258048 }, { RD7946AID, 0, "7946A", NRD7945ABPT, NRD7945ATRK, 968, 108416 }, { RD9134LID, 1, "9122D", NRD9122SBPT, NRD9122STRK, 77, 1232 }, { RD7957BID, 0, "7957B", NRD7957BBPT, NRD7957BTRK, 1269, 159894 }, { RD7958BID, 0, "7958B", NRD7958BBPT, NRD7958BTRK, 786, 297108 }, { RD7959BID, 0, "7959B", NRD7959BBPT, NRD7959BTRK, 1572, 594216 }, { RD2200AID, 0, "2200A", NRD2200ABPT, NRD2200ATRK, 1449, 654948 }, { RD2203AID, 0, "2203A", NRD2203ABPT, NRD2203ATRK, 1449, 1309896 } }; rd.h/* HW ids */ #define RD7946AID 0x220 /* also 7945A */ #define RD9134DID 0x221 /* also 9122S */ #define RD9134LID 0x222 /* also 9122D */ #define RD7912PID 0x209 #define RD7914CTID 0x20A #define RD7914PID 0x20B #define RD7958AID 0x22B #define RD7957AID 0x22A #define RD7933HID 0x212 #define RD7936HID 0x213 /* just guessing -- as of yet unknown */ #define RD7937HID 0x214 #define RD7957BID 0x22C /* another guess based on 7958B */ #define RD7958BID 0x22D #define RD7959BID 0x22E /* another guess based on 7958B */ #define RD2200AID 0x22F #define RD2203AID 0x230 /* yet another guess */ /* SW ids -- indicies into rdidentinfo, order is arbitrary */ #define RD7945A 0 #define RD9134D 1 #define RD9122S 2 #define RD7912P 3 #define RD7914P 4 #define RD7958A 5 #define RD7957A 6 #define RD7933H 7 #define RD9134L 8 #define RD7936H 9 #define RD7937H 10 #define RD7914CT 11 #define RD7946A 12 #define RD9122D 13 #define RD7957B 14 #define RD7958B 15 #define RD7959B 16 #define NRD7945ABPT 16 #define NRD7945ATRK 7 #define NRD9134DBPT 16 #define NRD9134DTRK 6 #define NRD9122SBPT 8 #define NRD9122STRK 2 #define NRD7912PBPT 32 #define NRD7912PTRK 7 #define NRD7914PBPT 32 #define NRD7914PTRK 7 #define NRD7933HBPT 46 #define NRD7933HTRK 13 #define NRD9134LBPT 16 #define NRD9134LTRK 5 /* * Several HP drives have an odd number of 256 byte sectors per track. * This makes it rather difficult to break them into 512 and 1024 byte blocks. * So...we just do like HPUX and don't bother to respect hardware track/head * boundries -- we just mold the disk so that we use the entire capacity. * HPUX also sometimes doesn't abide by cylinder boundries, we attempt to * whenever possible. * * DISK REAL (256 BPS) HPUX (1024 BPS) BSD (512 BPS) * SPT x HD x CYL SPT x HD x CYL SPT x HD x CYL * ----- --------------- --------------- -------------- * 7936: 123 x 7 x 1396 25 x 7 x 1716 123 x 7 x 698 * 7937: 123 x 13 x 1396 25 x 16 x 1395 123 x 13 x 698 * * 7957A: 63 x 5 x 1013 11 x 7 x 1036 22 x 7 x 1036 * 7958A: 63 x 8 x 1013 21 x 6 x 1013 36 x 7 x 1013 * * 7957B: 63 x 4 x 1269 9 x 7 x 1269 18 x 7 x 1269 * 7958B: 63 x 6 x 1572 21 x 9 x 786 42 x 9 x 786 * 7959B: 63 x 12 x 1572 21 x 9 x 1572 42 x 9 x 1572 * * 2200A: 113 x 8 x 1449 113 x 2 x 1449 113 x 4 x 1449 * 2203A: 113 x 16 x 1449 113 x 4 x 1449 113 x 8 x 1449 */ #define NRD7936HBPT 123 #define NRD7936HTRK 7 #define NRD7937HBPT 123 #define NRD7937HTRK 13 #define NRD7957ABPT 22 #define NRD7957ATRK 7 #define NRD7958ABPT 36 #define NRD7958ATRK 7 #define NRD7957BBPT 18 #define NRD7957BTRK 7 #define NRD7958BBPT 42 #define NRD7958BTRK 9 #define NRD7959BBPT 42 #define NRD7959BTRK 9 #define NRD2200ABPT 113 #define NRD2200ATRK 4 #define NRD2203ABPT 113 #define NRD2203ATRK 8 From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jun 23 19:51:53 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:51:53 -0500 Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on (and submission for FAQ) In-Reply-To: <20050621190143.Q62142@shell.lmi.net> References: <42B48249.7070409@hachti.de> <20050618133946.R2336@localhost> <17078.52876.883480.454206@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050621193105.73d3d352.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050621190143.Q62142@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050623195153.602adaff.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Fred Cisin wrote: > > > The usual substance is isopropyl alcohol (isopropanol). You > > > didn't mention that -- did you mean to suggest ethanol? I suppose > > > that would work, too. > > 190 proof ethanol (the HIGHER grade of Everclear) works very well, > and seems to leave less residue than isopropyl. > > On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > We wore white nylon gloves a lot more than we wanted to back when I > > was a COM operator producing Microfiche in the 80's. I suspect > > they're still readily available. Probably anybody who handles a lot > > of film would use them, i.e. the photograpy market. > > In my day, it was COTTON. > The cotton gloves sucked, because they gathered up dirt and so only lasted about a week. I remember that once the boss got them, because they were cheaper. Nylon gloves last almost forever. It's even possible I still have mine tucked away in a box. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jun 23 19:58:33 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:58:33 -0500 Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050623195833.79fbac59.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 00:29:56 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I tend to refer to things in nature as first person proper names. > > It makes them more friendly and personal. More people should do > > this. > > I'm going to give names to all the ICs ever made. It'll hopefully make > > them more friendly and then maybe my designs will start working. More > people should give components personal names. > > -tony Isn't that what the Amiga designers did? I seem to recall that all the major chips had girl's names. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jun 23 20:02:47 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:02:47 -0500 Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: References: <20050621192817.1c28784f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050623200247.4cc13bb6.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:38:28 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > A somewhat 'crude' but simple thing you can try is to listen to > > > > the audiotape sound of the tape you created which you say was > > > > successful. Then listen audibly to the tapes you're trying to > > > > recover. If the pitch seems to match for the most part it isn't > > > > a speed problem. If you have an oscilloscope, look at the > > > > amplitude of the signal out of the cassette drive of the new > > > > 'working' tape and compare to the one you're trying to recover. > > > > > > As others have suggested, use the simplest tape player you can > > > find. Noise reduction circuits and other fancy technology will > > > only cause problems. > > > > > > > The 'fancy technology' I suggested was an oscilloscope. I don't see > > how > > I think you've misunderstood the message. I think Sellam was refering > to 'fancy technology' inside the tape player -- things like noise > reduction circuits. You want a player without anything like that. > I understood that. Using a 'cheap' mono cassette recorder with automatic level control and brute plain electronics is well known enough that I'm suprised that anybody wouldn't know it. I just didn't think it was a 'cureall' comment to say 'just use a cheap tape recorder.' There's a lot more you can do, and Sellam's comment seemed dismissive. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jun 23 20:19:46 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:19:46 -0500 Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <27113.207.71.246.177.1119402374.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> References: <200506212023.j5LKMt7e042417@dewey.classiccmp.org> <27113.207.71.246.177.1119402374.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> Message-ID: <20050623201946.385c45f3.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:06:14 -0700 (PDT) "Jeff Davis" wrote: > Hi, I just acquired a few IBM POWERstation 370 in unknown condition. > I can probably make a couple good units out of the 4 I have - they > have disks, memory, etc, were decommissioned from a university > environment. > > I also have a diagnostics set of a cdrom labeled "POWERstation / > POWERserver Diagnostics v4.1.5" and a floppy labeled "POWERstation / > POWERserver High Capacity (2M byte) Diagnostics Test Diskette", and an > external plextor cdrom to use to install software. > > Right now, since I don't have an AIX 4.3.3 (last supported) install > cdrom set, I just want to get a machine powered up and tested. I > don't have a 13W3 monitor, nor keyboard or mouse (which I think are > non-standard). > It's possible, if you want to just get a system powered up and tested, that one of the disks you received has a working AIX on it. You won't get past the login prompt, but you can 'bring it up' to that point. I have an ancient POWER1 IBM box (a PowerStation 320H) that I've never connected video or a keyboard to. (anybody got a microchannel bus video card for it supported by AIX?) You should monitor for a console on the first serial port after watching the LED readout (is there one on your generation of machine). On mine, there is a VERY long blind period when all you have as feedback are the LED codes. Then all of a sudden the serial console wakes up. There still are support documents for my machine at IBM's website and I suspect yours may be newer. AIX install media is out there. If you're just a tinkerer and/or wanting the machine 'running and live' as a hobby pursuit, it shouldn't be that hard to locate a CD install set. A legal gray area. They don't use an ISO9660 filesystem (I don't think,) but the CD sets duplicate readily on Unix CD buring software that can read and write raw CD as images, (once you've obtained your original media kit and want to make a backup kit to protect your investment, of course) From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 21:40:25 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:40:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CS/80 disc geometry In-Reply-To: <42BB44A8.9070506@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20050624024025.44079.qmail@web30601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> So what would it take to kick off a CS/80 simulator project for Linux or NetBSD - or even Solaris ? Is anyone on the list skilled in the art of architecting open source software projects ? I keep coming back to this subject myself as I survey the growing pile of HPIB devices in my collection awaiting CS/80 disks (right now I have three and no working disks) and I would certainly want to contribute to a software effort on this subject. Regards, Dave --- Al Kossow wrote: > I guess no one has tried coding up a SS-80 or CS-80 > drive simulator yet.. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 23 21:47:38 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:47:38 -0500 Subject: CS/80 disc geometry References: <20050624024025.44079.qmail@web30601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00d201c57867$158576c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> David wrote.... > So what would it take to kick off a CS/80 simulator > project for Linux or NetBSD - or even Solaris ? Is > anyone on the list skilled in the art of architecting > open source software projects ? I've become quite adept at autoconf, automake, libtool, texinfo, and making a package "gnu-ized" for general opensource distribution. However, it'd be a pipedream for me to try to take on another project right now :\ Sorry :( Jay West From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 23 21:46:13 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:46:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CS/80 disc geometry In-Reply-To: <20050624024025.44079.qmail@web30601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050624024025.44079.qmail@web30601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200506240253.WAA04677@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > So what would it take to kick off a CS/80 simulator project for Linux > or NetBSD - or even Solaris ? Is anyone on the list skilled in the > art of architecting open source software projects ? > I keep coming back to this subject myself as I survey the growing > pile of HPIB devices in my collection awaiting CS/80 disks [...] By an interesting coincidence, I care a good deal about this myself just now - I just got a SCSI card for my hp300 box (a 320) only to find that the ROMs don't know how to talk to it. My only boot possibility is thus HP-IB. I have one working 7958 and one dead 7958, and I don't trust the working one to stay working. An experiment just now indicates that I don't need to get more than the bootblocks over HP-IB (the bootblocks on the working 7958 are capable of loading the kernel from SCSI). I was looking at building an HP-IB pseudo-disk out of a peecee parallel port plus some glue logic (I've done parallel-port-plus-glue-logic hackery in the past, such as my Tempest spinner interface). But I also have an IEEE488 SBus card which uses a chip for which an ISA driver exists in NetBSD. I'm going to poke at it with the existing ISA driver for guidance and see if I can get it to do anything. And if not...I may resurrect the parallel-port project. But I probably will need CS/80 docs of some sort. There apparently is some MI driver code for HP-IB disks in NetBSD, which is likely to help. Unless there's some kind of CS/80 spec among the doc we have online...? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 23 22:00:39 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:00:39 -0700 Subject: CS/80 disc geometry Message-ID: <42BB7757.5090507@bitsavers.org> So what would it take to kick off a CS/80 simulator project for Linux or NetBSD - or even Solaris ? -- It is creeping up on my interest list. This sort of started when I won what turned out to be an incomplete HP PASCAL 2.0 source document set on ebay a few weeks ago. There is ALMOST enough information there to start on a simulation of the HP 9000/200 series, which is the most simple of the 68K machines that HP built. So I've been digging around seeing what I can learn about the 200 and 300 series over the past few weeks (DIO cards, et al) and what software can be found (I picked up some 5" floppies with BASIC and PASCAL a while ago) I've picked up a couple of early 3xx boxes to take a look at (310, 320 and 340) and I just got a 9836 and 36C. This was about the last of the machines that HP provided any sort of technical detail on (schematics in the DIO card manuals, etc.) Since the same cards were used on the HPUX workstations, there is some information on them in the NetBSD code. This also would be useful for a future classic HP3000 simulation of the 4x series, which were CS/80 only. I tried emailing Peter Brown about the work he was doing on raw reads of CS/80 discs under WIN98 a few years ago to see what he was able to learn, but haven't heard anything back yet. From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 22:05:00 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CS/80 disc geometry In-Reply-To: <200506240253.WAA04677@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050624030501.65452.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- der Mouse wrote: > just now - I just got a SCSI card for my hp300 box > (a 320) only to find > that the ROMs don't know how to talk to it I also have an hp300 that I can't boot without HPIB. > > But I probably will need CS/80 docs of some sort. > There apparently is > some MI driver code for HP-IB disks in NetBSD, which > is likely to help. > Unless there's some kind of CS/80 spec among the doc > we have online...? Check bitsavers - I am sure I saw a CS/80 protocol definition document (or maybe a tutorial) on there. If not I have a paper version of the document stuffed away somewhere. Regards, Dave __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 23 22:12:27 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:12:27 -0700 Subject: CS/80 disc geometry Message-ID: <42BB7A1B.1090303@bitsavers.org> But I probably will need CS/80 docs of some sort. There apparently is some MI driver code for HP-IB disks in NetBSD, which is likely to help. Unless there's some kind of CS/80 spec among the doc we have online... -- the CS/80 programming spec is at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/5955-3442_cs80-is-pm.pd the AMIGO protocol is described in http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/09134-9032-Aug-1983.pdf a piece that is still missing is what commands are supported in the SS/80 subset protocol used in drives like the 9153C and 9354A/B The HPIB code for the 9000 code in NetBSD is the 'rd' driver along with hpib.c From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Thu Jun 23 22:42:16 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 05:42:16 +0200 Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: <20050623195833.79fbac59.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050623195833.79fbac59.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1119584536.6538.13.camel@fortran> On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 19:58 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > > them more friendly and then maybe my designs will start working. More > > people should give components personal names. > Isn't that what the Amiga designers did? I seem to recall that all the > major chips had girl's names. That can't possibly be - my Amiga doesn't work. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jun 24 00:21:00 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:21:00 -0500 Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <200506221641.JAA15030@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200506221641.JAA15030@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200506240021.00381.pat@computer-refuge.org> Dwight K. Elvey declared on Wednesday 22 June 2005 11:41 am: > >From: "Jeff Davis" > > > >To pre-answer one question: no, I didn't get any operator keys for > > the boxes. Are they difficult / expensive to find? If so, I'll go > > back on thursday and dig thru the storage bins I found the machines > > in and look for a key... > > > >Jeff > > Hi > Take the lock to a locksmith. You might be surprised. > I've not seen the one used on your unit but the local > fellow here does them for $15 first key. Locksmiths will NOT carry Medco (or medco-compatible) key blanks, unless they're doing something unethical. Medco is a high security lock manufacturer that doesn't sell blanks for their locks to 'just any locksmith'. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jun 24 00:30:30 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:30:30 -0500 Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <20050623201946.385c45f3.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200506212023.j5LKMt7e042417@dewey.classiccmp.org> <27113.207.71.246.177.1119402374.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> <20050623201946.385c45f3.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200506240030.30290.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:06:14 -0700 (PDT) "Jeff Davis" wrote: > Hi, I just acquired a few IBM POWERstation 370 in unknown condition. > I can probably make a couple good units out of the 4 I have - they > have disks, memory, etc, were decommissioned from a university > environment. > > I also have a diagnostics set of a cdrom labeled "POWERstation / > POWERserver Diagnostics v4.1.5" and a floppy labeled "POWERstation / > POWERserver High Capacity (2M byte) Diagnostics Test Diskette", and > an external plextor cdrom to use to install software. > > Right now, since I don't have an AIX 4.3.3 (last supported) install > cdrom set, I just want to get a machine powered up and tested. Actually, you can run AIX version 5.1 on ANY RS/6000 that was released before that version of AIX was released. I've run 5.1 on a 370, and it wasn't 'horrible' by any means, but it wasn't terribly 'snappy' either. Also, AIX install CDs are easily obtainable via eBay. > I don't have a 13W3 monitor, nor keyboard or mouse (which I think are > non-standard). You can either use a serial console, or just watch the LED display as it boots. If it eventually (after 10-15 minutes) ends up with a blank LCD, everything probably works just fine. If there's some numbers that stay on it for > a minute or so, there *might* be a problem. If you don't have a network connected to the machine, it may stall (progress slowly) during some of the network configuration (codes in the 500s). IBM has a guide of what LED #s mean as a chapter in their MCA diagnostics manual: http://publib16.boulder.ibm.com/pseries/en_US/infocenter/base/hardware_docs/pdf/a4af5bas.pdf Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 24 00:47:27 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:47:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <200506240021.00381.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200506221641.JAA15030@clulw009.amd.com> <200506240021.00381.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200506240551.BAA15518@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Locksmiths will NOT carry Medco (or medco-compatible) key blanks, > unless they're doing something unethical. Or unless they *do* handle Medeco stuff. :-) > Medco is a high security lock manufacturer that doesn't sell blanks > for their locks to 'just any locksmith'. Not that they're difficult to make if you want to. (Indeed, I've seen very few keys - none that I can recall offhand - which would be hard to synthesize from scratch if you care to bother, and have a decently equipped shop. Heck, when my father was in prison (he went to prison as a CO rather than serve in WWII) he made keys for the locks out of just what he, as an inmate, could lay his hands on; how hard can it be? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tomj at wps.com Fri Jun 24 02:09:11 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on (and submission for FAQ) In-Reply-To: <20050623195153.602adaff.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <42B48249.7070409@hachti.de> <20050618133946.R2336@localhost> <17078.52876.883480.454206@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050621193105.73d3d352.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050621190143.Q62142@shell.lmi.net> <20050623195153.602adaff.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050624000746.H1083@localhost> >> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: >> In my day, it was COTTON. On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > The cotton gloves sucked, because they gathered up dirt and so only > lasted about a week. I remember that once the boss got them, because > they were cheaper. Nylon gloves last almost forever. It's even > possible I still have mine tucked away in a box. The point of nylon gloves is that they do not generate lint. Cotton generates a lot of lint and are no good for disk-drive repairs. Lint-free is the key characteristic. From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jun 24 04:56:13 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:56:13 +0100 Subject: Several comments on crashed drive in PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <200506192349.j5JNnsIs001352@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200506192349.j5JNnsIs001352@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <42BBD8BD.5080208@gjcp.net> Brad Parker wrote: > I've really only used it on a 11/34a and it worked great. It can't work > on a 11/44 sadly - the console odt won't pass binary. > > I have never tried it on a qbus machine (23 or 73). I plan to soon. I tried it on my OEM 11/73. It works well, even at 19200 baud. Copied XXDP across to an RL02 pack with no real problems. Gordon. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 24 07:56:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:56:04 -0400 Subject: CS/80 disc geometry In-Reply-To: <20050624024025.44079.qmail@web30601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <42BB44A8.9070506@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050624085604.009b8540@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:40 PM 6/23/05 -0700, you wrote: >So what would it take to kick off a CS/80 simulator >project for Linux or NetBSD - or even Solaris ? If I'm not mistaken Steve Robertson already has a CS-80 simulator running. He built it out of a STD-bus system! Joe Is >anyone on the list skilled in the art of architecting >open source software projects ? > >I keep coming back to this subject myself as I survey >the growing pile of HPIB devices in my collection >awaiting CS/80 disks (right now I have three and no >working disks) and I would certainly want to >contribute to a software effort on this subject. > >Regards, > >Dave > >--- Al Kossow wrote: > > >> I guess no one has tried coding up a SS-80 or CS-80 >> drive simulator yet.. > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Jun 24 08:23:14 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Surplus in Silicon Valley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm headed out to the San Francisco area at the end of July: area there any worthwhile surplus outfits to visit? I'm already planning to hit Halted and Weird Stuff, just for the hell of it. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Mon Jun 20 13:29:20 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:29:20 -0500 Subject: Slightly (ok, maybe more than slightly) OT: Old Yellow Book CDs Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F0B5991@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Mailing lists were available in all sorts of machine-readable formats from the 1960s-on, most commonly on 7 or 9 track reel tapes. Many other types of public records were also available, but it's just not a commonly known thing these days. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Timothy Hotze Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 11:52 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Slightly (ok, maybe more than slightly) OT: Old Yellow Book CDs Hi, My name's Tim Hotze, some really long term members with archives that go way back may find that I used to be semi-active here years ago. Now I'm working with a cultural policy group at the University of Chicago, and I'm part of a project that is using (amongst other sources) Yellow Book data. Whic his great for this year. And even great for last yeah, when we have data. Its not great for 1996, or 1992, or any other year - we can't find electronic data from previous years; websites are updated continually. Libraries that I've searched have this years, maybe last years, but don't keep any older data available. So here's where I think you guys may be able to help.... as I recall from my days of hunting garage sales, there's a lot of chaff with the wheat. I also remember there being published Yellow Book or business listing CDs in the 1990's - especially before the dot-com era. I wanted to know if anybody can remember these, if anybody has seen them around lying with 486s that you don't want to find when you're really looking for an IMSAI or Apple II, and, while I'm at it, if maybe anybody knowsi f any older form of this kind of business data that was in some kind of machine-readable format? I'm really sorry for making my 1st post back an off-topic one, but I've contacted everyone that publishes yellow page books without success, or, appearant knowledge of well, anything, when I've gotten a reply at all, and this was the best lead I could think of. Thanks so much, Tim From bv at norbionics.com Mon Jun 20 15:58:30 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:58:30 -0400 Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0c83579773c6134b2b52993961a247ed@norbionics.com> On 18 Jun, 2005, at 18:44, Gary Sparkes wrote: > > Also - would just recording the programs as wav files work well? > I think digitizing the tape at a high quality would be a good idea. You could the use signal processing software to remove the effects of fading, wow, flutter and other analogue mishaps. Then you could output the result to another tape, or use the analog audio output of whatever computer you cleaned it on as your casette simulator. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Mon Jun 20 16:34:30 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:34:30 -0400 Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: <200506201611.j5KGBgKe016935@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200506201611.j5KGBgKe016935@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <3e3237d5c03ec8b6893787fef53468f0@norbionics.com> On 20 Jun, 2005, at 12:03, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > A good topic for the classiccmp knowledge base! > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chris M > Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 12:25 AM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: yellowed murky plastic > > I would imagine this question has been asked hundreds of times, but > what to > do about it? Im guessing soaking it in bleachy water (50/50?). What > say you? > This is difficult! Generally, "bleaching" will make plastic yellowish and often brittle. To restore old plastic, one needs to know what kind of polymer, what kind of plasticisers, and what kind of filler it is made from. I only took two years of organic chemistry, so I know way too little about how to proceed, but I have an inkling this is going to be a big issue for future museum people. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Mon Jun 20 16:41:39 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:41:39 -0400 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20 Jun, 2005, at 14:04, William Donzelli wrote: >> True. But other computer makers of even lower stature have shown up >> on the CC list, and in bitsavers. Apart from the big ones, it seems >> to be just a random process that determines which machines appear and >> which ones do not. For example, I can't think of any other reason why >> Varian would show up in Al's archive and Philips would not... > > I doubt there were ever more than 100 Phillips machines in the US at > any > given time. Perhaps in Europe they were more popular, but here they > were > effectively not even a tiny speck in the minicomputer industry. Philips (which is an entirely different company from Phillips) were much more imporant as makers of embedded computers than as makers of computers people know about. My cousin used to work as an instructor in the norwegian navy, and he said the Philips computers were used in most of our Missile Torpedo Boats. I suppose embedded systems easily end up as the forgotten branch of computers, even though they probably are both more numerous and more important than standalone boxes. -- -bv From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 20 23:23:35 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050621042335.55203.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> most old puter plastic goes through this metamorphosis. I had several old monitors that I scrubbed with a scratchy pad and scouring powder I think...but it all came back! I'm going to try soaking the (Lisa) case parts in bleachy water and see what happens. On second thought...mayhaps I'll practice on something less, umm, valuable? I don't want to have to live with it...it looks o so skanky. --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I would imagine this question has been asked > hundreds > > of times, but what to do about it? Im guessing > soaking > > it in bleachy water (50/50?). What say you? > > It depends on what's casued it. If it's dirt/smoke > residue/whatever on > the surface, then I would start with one of the > anti-static foam cleaners > (both Electrolube and Servisol do good ones). If > that doesn't help, I'd > try propan-2-ol (I haev found some marks that will > come off with that and > not with the foam cleaner). > > I've never found either of thos products to have an > adverse effect on > casings, keytops, etc. You do want to take care if > there are stuck-on > labels (particularly paper ones) that you want to > preserve. > > More often, though, particularly with DEC hardware, > the yellowing is due > to a chemical change of the plastic. VT100s are well > known for this. > AFAIK it can't be reversed. Maybe sanding off the > surface would do > something, but it would also ruin any texturing of > the surface too (and > therefore it's a bad idea!). Painting over it might > help, it might also > make it look a lot worse. I'd just live with it, I > think. > > -tony > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 21 02:27:44 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: any DEC Rainbow gurus on list? Message-ID: <20050621072744.8257.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> In particular I'd like to know what crt controller was used in the Rainbow. Grassy arse __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 21 08:02:25 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (a.carlini at ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:02:25 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 Digital Software News Message-ID: <20050621130225.FZJF5558.aamta09-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com> >through 1978. Are these already on-line somewhere or >does someone what to scan them and post them? I had a quick look on Manx (http://vt100.net/manx) and I cannot find anything with "news" in the title. If that is indeed what the title is, then they appear to be not online and sound like they are well worth hving online. The corresponding RT-11 fasicles were called RT-11 Software Dispatch, IIRC - be nice to see those too, in case someone has a pile lurking somewhere! Antonio ----------------------------------------- Email provided by http://www.ntlhome.com/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jun 21 09:08:06 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:08:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP11 near Manchester on eBay Message-ID: <30584.195.212.29.75.1119362886.squirrel@195.212.29.75> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5209467994&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW If no-one else is interested, I might bid myself... Gordon. From bv at norbionics.com Tue Jun 21 12:09:20 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:09:20 -0400 Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? In-Reply-To: References: <42B82F11.5060809@srv.net> <17080.12562.391677.257681@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <73e96941c66921a422575de2cb40bfdf@norbionics.com> On 21 Jun, 2005, at 12:35, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/21/05, Paul Koning wrote: >> If your boxes are plugged into grounded outlets, as they should be, >> then there should NOT be large currents flowing through frame ground >> cables. If you do observe that, track down the fault before someone >> gets hurt. > > The key word is "should"... If you get some ya-hoo who decides they > can save a few $$$ and wire up an outlet... well... let's just say > that the first homeowner's tool I bought was an outlet tester, and I > found two outlets that had hot and neutral reversed... > > I worked at a place where the owner plugged a serial cable in between > his PC and his Mac, and he roached the Mac serial port because of the > same problem. He had all the outlets tested and fixed, but he also > made a proclaimation - no computers were to be connected via serial > cables unless they pulled their power from the same wall outlet. A > bit inflexible, but guaranteed not to have a mismatch. In Norway, you will not get mains-powered devices approved unless the chassis is isolated. Our AC wiring does not have any concept of "neutral", since both wires are supposed to be at the same potential relative to ground. That way, everybody learns to be careful. I can see the economics of using four-wire Y-connected three-phase transformers instead of three wire plus earth delta-connected, but I have also seen the frying potential when some genius takes for granted that one of the power wires is supposed to be at ground potential. The isolation transformer is your friend. Especially when it is also cleaning spikes and flywheeling over dips. -- -bv From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jun 22 13:49:29 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:49:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Classiccmp cartoon sighting In-Reply-To: <200506221551.j5MFpkR0022222@keith.ezwind.net> References: <002901c57738$9451f440$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <200506221551.j5MFpkR0022222@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <57422.80.6.98.146.1119466169.squirrel@80.6.98.146> > I wouldn't expect that New Yorker readers know what Fortran is. Surprised > they didn't just make it Windows. Thus we get to the unexpected humorous part of the joke, known as the "punchline". For more information, you may want to look at O'Reilly Press "Humour in a Nutshell", or enrol in a mail-order course. Gordon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of John Allain > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 10:42 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Classiccmp cartoon sighting > > As if this list wasn't crowded enough already. > > cartoon: "How to Avoid Spring Fever", by Roz Chast > magazine: The New Yorker, 23-May-2005 > > panel caption: > 'Read a long, boring book - preferably one > that makes no sence to you at all.' > book title: > "Teach Yourself Fortran" > > Pretty long reach by Chast here -- > but a check actually shows a surprisingly long sales life for Fortran > books > written in the last 15 years. > > John A. > I know spring ended yesterday, but just spotted this > > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 00:05:56 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050623050556.64159.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> I haven't tried it yet (on plastic that is) but sudsy ammonia or just strait ammonia does wonders at removing paint and grime from metals. I bought an old lathe several years ago that had 100+ years of rock hard paint and crud stuck to it. I soaked it in sudsy ammonia for 2 nights and it came off readily with some sort of brush. I may try soaking the plastic in some for a short period of time and note the effect. Although pretty caustic, I can't see it having a detrimental effect on the plastic as long as you don't overdo it. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 07:58:58 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Liquidating my collection Message-ID: <20050623125858.1186.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> jscheef at yahoo.com --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Hi all, > Thank you to all who showed some interest. I have already received requests > for specific machines. Unfortunately some of them were already gone. I will > try to make a list out of the ones I have on my site and list only the ones > that are still available. > Right off the back the IBM 5110 and the SWTPC are long gone (to list > members). > Here's the list. > ACT_______Apricot F10 > Apple_______Apple ][ > Apple_______Apple //e > Apple_______Apple //c > Apple_______Apple IIgs > Apple_______Apple /// > Apple_______Mac Plus > Apple_______Mac Classic > Apple_______Mac SE > Apple_______Mac SE/30 > Apple_______Mac II > Apple_______Mac II cx > Apple_______Mac II vx > Apple_______Performa 631 > AT&T_______UNIX PC > Atari_______1040 STF > Commodore_______Amiga 1000 > Commodore_______PET 4016 > Commodore_______B128 > Compaq_______prolinea > Epson_______QX10 > Franklin_______ACE 500 > Franklin_______ACE 1000 > Franklin_______ACE 2100 > Heath/Zenith_______ZT 1 > Heath/Zenith_______H100 > Heath/Zenith_______H89 > Heath/Zenith_______Z100 > Heath/Zenith_______Z90 > Heath/Zenith_______?286 > Hewlett Packard_______HP-85 > Hewlett Packard_______HP-87XM > Hewlett Packard_______HP-150 > Hewlett Packard_______HP-150II > IBM_______PC jr > IBM_______PC XT > IBM_______PS/2 Mod 60 > IBM_______PS/2 Mod 80 > Micron_______Pro Magnum Plus > Sinclair_______Timex Sinclair 1000 > Sinclair_______Timex Sinclair 1500 > Tandy_______TRS80 Model III > Tandy_______TRS80 Model 4 > Tandy_______Tandy 1000 PC EX > Televideo_______? > Vector Graphic_______Vector 3 > VTECH_______Laser 128 > Amstrad_______PPC 512 > Apple_______Mac Portable > Commodore_______Commodore SX-64 > Compaq_______Compaq Portable > Compaq_______Compaq Portable II > Grid_______Gridcase 1520 > IBM_______Personal Portable Computer > IBM_______PS/2 Mod 70P > Jonos_______Jonos > Kaypro_______Kaypro 1 > Kaypro_______Kaypro II > Kaypro_______Kaypro 4 > Kaypro_______Kaypro 16 > Osborne_______Osborne 1 > Toshiba_______T3100 > Apple_______Powerbook duo 230 > Apple_______Powerbook duo 280c > Compaq_______LTE Lite/20 > Compaq_______LTE Lite/25 > Compaq_______LTE Lite/25c > Datavue_______Spark > Epson_______HC 41 > Epson_______HX 20 > Epson_______HX 40 > Grid_______GridPad 1910 === Message Truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From brian at quarterbyte.com Fri Jun 24 11:32:13 2005 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:32:13 -0700 Subject: IBM 1130 may need rescue in Edinburgh! Message-ID: <42BBD31D.18972.22F5B54E@localhost> Hi folks, We just got a brief note at ibm1130.org from a guy who spotted an IBM 1130 "looking in a bad state in the street out the back of the ibm edinburgh office." I don't know yet if it's still there now -- this could have been in 1975 and he just got around to looking it up -- but is there anyone in or near Edinburgh who might have the interest in rescuing it, if it turns out not to be a false alarm? At the very least, it should be inspected to see if any useful parts could be salvaged from it before it gets hauled off by the garbage men. Please let me know if you can help if it pans out. I'm trying to see if I can get more details. Brian From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 24 11:28:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: <20050623200247.4cc13bb6.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:38:28 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > > A somewhat 'crude' but simple thing you can try is to listen to > > > > > the audiotape sound of the tape you created which you say was > > > > > successful. Then listen audibly to the tapes you're trying to > > > > > recover. If the pitch seems to match for the most part it isn't > > > > > a speed problem. If you have an oscilloscope, look at the > > > > > amplitude of the signal out of the cassette drive of the new > > > > > 'working' tape and compare to the one you're trying to recover. > > > > > > > > As others have suggested, use the simplest tape player you can > > > > find. Noise reduction circuits and other fancy technology will > > > > only cause problems. > > > > > > > > > > The 'fancy technology' I suggested was an oscilloscope. I don't see > > > how > > > > I think you've misunderstood the message. I think Sellam was refering > > to 'fancy technology' inside the tape player -- things like noise > > reduction circuits. You want a player without anything like that. > > > I understood that. Using a 'cheap' mono cassette recorder with > automatic level control and brute plain electronics is well known enough > that I'm suprised that anybody wouldn't know it. I just didn't think it > was a 'cureall' comment to say 'just use a cheap tape recorder.' > There's a lot more you can do, and Sellam's comment seemed dismissive. It wasn't meant to be dismissive, but a step in the right direction. I didn't know what you were using, and just wanted to be sure of that. Perhaps I shot from the hip. It isn't the first time. Many people never used cassettes for program storage, so it might not be too obvious that a modern day player with Dolby noise reduction or what not might actually be hampering a tape load. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Jun 24 11:33:22 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:33:22 -0400 Subject: TI Modulators & cassette cables available In-Reply-To: <20050621072744.8257.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050621072744.8257.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050624122919.034f2b50@pop-server> I have a number of these and will make them available to members of this list for for the price shown TI-99/4A Modulator UM1381-1 NEW $6 TI Home Computer 99/4A Cassette Cable NEW $4 Model # PHA 2622 TI Home Computer 99/4A Dual Cassette Cable NEW one w/2 leads other with 3 PHA 2000 $6 plus shipping of course From kth at srv.net Fri Jun 24 11:39:50 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:39:50 -0600 Subject: PDP11 near Manchester on eBay In-Reply-To: <30584.195.212.29.75.1119362886.squirrel@195.212.29.75> References: <30584.195.212.29.75.1119362886.squirrel@195.212.29.75> Message-ID: <42BC3756.8060408@srv.net> gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: >http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5209467994&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > >If no-one else is interested, I might bid myself... > >Gordon. > > > > 50 pounds for an empty chassis? From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 24 11:38:32 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang paper tape format? Message-ID: I have some paper tapes that I'm trying to read and I have good reason to believe they are from a Wang machine of some type. They seem to hold some sort of document. The writing on the tape indicates a section number and "pages". The tape is 8-level. The 8th bit seems to be used as some sort of end-of-line or end-of-record marker. The 7th bit seems to be parity. So the actual symbol codes are likely 6-bit. I've read in the tapes and done some cryptanalysis but so far I haven't been able to see any patterns that would suggest groupings of letters at certain codes. At this point I'm confused. Does anyone know how Wang paper tapes were encoded, or does anyone know where there is technical documentation about this? So for my searches online have turned up empty. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri Jun 24 11:50:06 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:50:06 +0200 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-06-23 23:09:51 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Thu, 2005-06-23 19:53:29 +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > > Anyone got some space and 3 phase ? > > > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5211981884 > > I'd *love* to get this machine (trying to get one of those for about two > years), but shipping from UK to Germany would probably kill me :( Well, I'm actually considering to bid on it. That is, I'm trying to organize how to move the box over to Germany with a van or trailer. Though, I need to get it, too... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 24 11:54:39 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:54:39 -0400 Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? References: <42B82F11.5060809@srv.net> <17080.12562.391677.257681@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <73e96941c66921a422575de2cb40bfdf@norbionics.com> Message-ID: <17084.15055.472914.222679@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Bj??rn" == Bj??rn Vermo writes: Bj??rn> On 21 Jun, 2005, at 12:35, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 6/21/05, Paul Koning wrote: >>> If your boxes are plugged into grounded outlets, as they should >>> be, then there should NOT be large currents flowing through frame >>> ground cables. If you do observe that, track down the fault >>> before someone gets hurt. >> >> The key word is "should"... If you get some ya-hoo who decides >> they can save a few $$$ and wire up an outlet... well... let's >> just say that the first homeowner's tool I bought was an outlet >> tester, and I found two outlets that had hot and neutral >> reversed... >> >> I worked at a place where the owner plugged a serial cable in >> between his PC and his Mac, and he roached the Mac serial port >> because of the same problem. He had all the outlets tested and >> fixed, but he also made a proclaimation - no computers were to be >> connected via serial cables unless they pulled their power from >> the same wall outlet. A bit inflexible, but guaranteed not to >> have a mismatch. Bj??rn> In Norway, you will not get mains-powered devices approved Bj??rn> unless the chassis is isolated. Our AC wiring does not have Bj??rn> any concept of "neutral", since both wires are supposed to be Bj??rn> at the same potential relative to ground. That way, everybody Bj??rn> learns to be careful. That doesn't address the point I was talking about. While US practice does distinguish neutral and hot leads (for 110 volt outlets, that is), equipment doesn't depend on that much anymore. The only place where it is still used is in power switches, which are often single pole and in the hot wire only. In ancient days, designers would connect the supposed neutral to the chassis, but that's no longer done and probably no longer legal. Instead, the grounding wire (green wire) connects to the chassis. That's true worldwide. (In Norway, that would be the connector at the outer edge of the outlet.) All this works fine in correctly wired installations, where no current flows on the ground wire, and all ground wires are connected to the same common ground as required in the USA by the regulations. If the installer gets this wrong, you may end up with a voltage difference between the ground pins on different outlets. That's both illegal and dangerous -- it can fry equipment, but more importantly it can fry people. The same can occur in any other country -- all it requires is that the electrician screws up sufficiently badly. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 24 11:57:38 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:57:38 -0400 Subject: Wang paper tape format? References: Message-ID: <17084.15234.29843.160343@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> I have some paper tapes that I'm trying to read and I have Vintage> good reason to believe they are from a Wang machine of some Vintage> type. Vintage> They seem to hold some sort of document. The writing on the Vintage> tape indicates a section number and "pages". Vintage> The tape is 8-level. The 8th bit seems to be used as some Vintage> sort of end-of-line or end-of-record marker. The 7th bit Vintage> seems to be parity. So the actual symbol codes are likely Vintage> 6-bit. I don't have the specific code at hand or in my memory, but that sounds a lot like a common Flexowriter code. 8th bit by itself for carriage return fits, as does parity in bit 7. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 24 12:06:12 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:06:12 -0400 Subject: Wang paper tape format? References: <17084.15234.29843.160343@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17084.15748.514957.186413@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Paul" == Paul Koning writes: Paul> I don't have the specific code at hand or in my memory, but Paul> that sounds a lot like a common Flexowriter code. 8th bit by Paul> itself for carriage return fits, as does parity in bit 7. http://www.science.uva.nl/faculteit/museum/X1flex.html has a reference ("Click *here* for...") to a Flexowriter code. It does have parity, though the parity bit is bit 6. Bit 7 is on for letters. This document shows a different carriage return ("NLCR") code, but in later versions bit 8 was used. The "tape code" notation is a bit odd -- it's given as two decimal numbers, which represent the punches to the left and to the right of the feed sprocket holes. paul From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jun 24 12:18:32 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:18:32 +0100 Subject: PDP11 near Manchester on eBay In-Reply-To: <42BC3756.8060408@srv.net> References: <30584.195.212.29.75.1119362886.squirrel@195.212.29.75> <42BC3756.8060408@srv.net> Message-ID: <42BC4068.5080607@gjcp.net> Kevin Handy wrote: > gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: > >> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5209467994&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW >> >> >> If no-one else is interested, I might bid myself... >> >> Gordon. >> >> >> >> > 50 pounds for an empty chassis? > > Yes, I didn't notice it was a gutted one until after my second coffee. Then, this post took something like three days to appear... Gordon. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Jun 24 12:37:46 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:37:46 +0100 Subject: PDP11 near Manchester on eBay In-Reply-To: <42BC4068.5080607@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <000801c578e3$70808f70$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >> 50 pounds for an empty chassis? >Yes, I didn't notice it was a gutted one until after my second coffee. >Then, this post took something like three days to appear... I think his spacstations were similarly gutted (or at least as advertised with no cpu). Antonio From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 24 12:43:00 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:43:00 -0700 Subject: Mindset RS-232 Module Message-ID: <42BC4624.C1E4B5BB@rain.org> I just ran across a Mindset RS-232-C module in some stuff that was donated to our amateur radio club bazaar. A quick look didn't show the computer it went with but if it is worth checking out, I can ask. Since the bazaar is a fund raiser for our club, it is available for sale; any thoughts on what it is worth ... and the computer if it should show up? From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Fri Jun 24 13:02:19 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:02:19 +0100 Subject: IBM 1130 may need rescue in Edinburgh! In-Reply-To: <42BBD31D.18972.22F5B54E@localhost> References: <42BBD31D.18972.22F5B54E@localhost> Message-ID: <1119636139.19435.11.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 09:32 -0700, Brian Knittel wrote: > Hi folks, > > We just got a brief note at ibm1130.org from a guy who spotted > an IBM 1130 "looking in a bad state in the street out the back > of the ibm edinburgh office." > Please let me know if you can help if it pans out. I'm trying to see > if I can get more details. > > Brian Assuming this is Edinburgh, Scotland, I'm not that close (South Northants) but that would be worth the trip and I do need to get to Stirling sometime anyway. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Jun 24 13:19:34 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:19:34 +0100 Subject: any DEC Rainbow gurus on list? In-Reply-To: <20050621072744.8257.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c578e9$4730f0f0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > In particular I'd like to know what crt controller was > used in the Rainbow. Grassy arse You too can become a guru (or at least, train to become one) by heading over to Manx at http://vt100.net/manx, entering Rainbow or PC100, downloading and reading! Antonio From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Jun 24 13:29:36 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:29:36 +0100 Subject: Several comments on crashed drive in PDP-11/23 References: <200506192349.j5JNnsIs001352@mwave.heeltoe.com> <42BBD8BD.5080208@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <002a01c578ea$ad60a680$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> "Gordon JC Pearce" > Brad Parker wrote: > > > I've really only used it on a 11/34a and it worked great. It can't work > > on a 11/44 sadly - the console odt won't pass binary. > > > > I have never tried it on a qbus machine (23 or 73). I plan to soon. > >Gordon Pearce wrote: > I tried it on my OEM 11/73. It works well, even at 19200 baud. > Copied XXDP across to an RL02 pack with no real problems. > > Gordon. I've successfully created an XXDP image in TU58 format, and booted it on my 11/23+, again at 19200 Baud using SLU2 on the CPU card(19200,O,8,1 as that was how SLU2 was strapped). I found the utilities easy to use, and the documentation was sufficient for an analogue hardware man like me to get it working! The ODP boot program listing on the site worked fine, in fact the biggest problem of the whole job was finding the key on the VT320 I'm using for the console (F13 for anyone who's interested). I found a link for the XXDP RL02 image on the TU58 emulator site. I haven't tried making an image of an RL02 yet, but may well do so next week, when I have a little more time. Jim. From dhbarr at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 16:10:15 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:10:15 -0500 Subject: PSA RE: Equipment Auction Message-ID: Greetings, list(s). First of all, let me say that I'm not in the habit of making commercial posts; this isn't about that. Also, this PSA is going out to several lists, so if you see something severely OT please assume it wasn't intended for you. Having said that, the University of Oklahoma is having a Surplus Property Auction tomorrow at 8am, and I intend to attend. While doing the public viewing today, I recorded some items of interest: +--------+---------+---------+---------+---------+ | Lot - Description | +--------+---------+---------+---------+---------+ | 818 - NextStation (slab) with video editing | | equipment | | 923 - HP 5328A 800MHz universal counter | | 879 - AT&T 6300WGS | | 870 - TexScan MSI CompuID | | 996 - HP 3396A Integrator | | 902 - HP 5085A Standby Power Supply | | 924 - Digital Technology Inc. DTI-575-116600 | | 830 - Box of 10sealed Carlisle Summit 1600 BPI | | / 6250 CPI tapes | | 730 - Panasonic TR-90T1G LKB Bromma Computer | | Display | | ??? - Assorted Rohde & Shwarz instruments | | ??? - Assorted Fluke Scientific instruments | | 861 - HP Visualize C200 (PA-RISC) | | 862 - HP Visualize C200 (PA-RISC) | | 863 - HP Visualize C200 (PA-RISC) | | ??? - Compaq ProLiant ML530 PII Xeon 6x 36.4Gb | | Ultra SCSI | +--------+---------+---------+---------+---------+ IF YOU WANT ME TO BID FOR YOU: - contact me no later than 2005.06.25.06.00GMt-6 (six am saturday morning) - preference will be given to those who arrange to get their funding to me BEFORE the auction starts (paypal dhbarr at gmail dot com) - you will need to arrange to get meatspace contact details to me before bidding starts - I -will- bid on things for you up to your pre-arranged amount, within reason - shipping and packaging will also be minimal Regards, dhbarr at sdf dot lonestar dot org PS: In case someone else is in the OKC area: 2101 W. Tecumseh Road, Norman OK www.ou.edu/property_control/index.htm From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 24 16:20:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:20:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: CS/80 disc geometry In-Reply-To: <42BB7757.5090507@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jun 23, 5 08:00:39 pm Message-ID: > It is creeping up on my interest list. This sort of started when > I won what turned out to be an incomplete HP PASCAL 2.0 source > document set on ebay a few weeks ago. There is ALMOST enough > information there to start on a simulation of the HP 9000/200 > series, which is the most simple of the 68K machines that HP > built. So I've been digging around seeing what I can learn about > the 200 and 300 series over the past few weeks (DIO cards, et al) It probably won't happen soon enough to help you, but as you know I've been tracing out schematics of some of the HP machines... There's a 9836 (and for that matter that 50960 I mentioned the other day) on the 'to be pulled apart' pile. I must finish the 9845B and its monitor first, then I might well turn to one of the 68K machines... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 24 16:09:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:09:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: any DEC Rainbow gurus on list? In-Reply-To: <20050621072744.8257.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jun 21, 5 00:27:44 am Message-ID: > > In particular I'd like to know what crt controller was > used in the Rainbow. Grassy arse Not a guru by any means, but anyway... The motherboard video system (which was monochrome text only, and not suprisingly similar to a VT100) used the VT100 chipset. The DC011 video timing chip and the DC012 video controller. The graphics option card, which produced an analogue RGB colour output, used an uPC7220 graphics processor with lots of glue logic round it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 24 16:14:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:14:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: booting and 11/44 via tu58 sim? In-Reply-To: <73e96941c66921a422575de2cb40bfdf@norbionics.com> from "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=" at Jun 21, 5 01:09:20 pm Message-ID: > In Norway, you will not get mains-powered devices approved unless the > chassis is isolated. Our AC wiring does not have any concept of > "neutral", since both wires are supposed to be at the same potential > relative to ground. That way, everybody learns to be careful. In the UK, althoguh one side of the mains is close to earth potential, you are not allowed to assume this. Anything connected to the mains (either side) has to be 'inaccessible without the use of a tool', and I think devices have to remain safe if the live and neutral wires are swapped. The 2 sides of the mains (live and neutral) are mentioned in the regulations, in that signle-pole protective devices (like fuses) have to be in the live wire, single pole switches must open the live wire (and not the netural), Edison Screw lampholders must be wired so that the outer shell is connected to neutral, and so on. I have never come across a correctly functioning computer device that puts high voltages on (say) the serial port if you swap live and neutral, and I am sure such a device would not be acceptable over here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 24 16:18:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:18:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: <20050623195833.79fbac59.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jun 23, 5 07:58:33 pm Message-ID: > > them more friendly and then maybe my designs will start working. More > > people should give components personal names. > > > > -tony > > Isn't that what the Amiga designers did? I seem to recall that all the > major chips had girl's names. I thought one of them was called 'Garry', hardly a girls name... The 4-chip chipset in the Archimedes all had names. The CPU was obviously 'ARM', the others all began with 'A'. I can remember Arabella and Albion (the VIDC video chip and IOC I/O controller in some order), but I forget the name of the MEMC (memory controller). -tony From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 24 16:55:45 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang paper tape format? In-Reply-To: <17084.15234.29843.160343@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > I don't have the specific code at hand or in my memory, but that > sounds a lot like a common Flexowriter code. 8th bit by itself for > carriage return fits, as does parity in bit 7. That's what I thought as well, but I couldn't find any references to Flexowriter encoding either :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 24 17:15:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mindset RS-232 Module In-Reply-To: <42BC4624.C1E4B5BB@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I just ran across a Mindset RS-232-C module in some stuff that was > donated to our amateur radio club bazaar. A quick look didn't show the > computer it went with but if it is worth checking out, I can ask. Since > the bazaar is a fund raiser for our club, it is available for sale; any > thoughts on what it is worth ... and the computer if it should show up? Definitely worth finding the computer if you can. It was a very nice graphics computer somewhat comparable to the Amiga. Curt Vendel can tell you a lot more about it, including the tie-in to Atari. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rdd at rddavis.org Fri Jun 24 17:55:29 2005 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: 24 Jun 2005 18:55:29 -0400 Subject: Goodies... offered here before E-Bay In-Reply-To: <200506241700.j5OH02eu099579@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506241700.j5OH02eu099579@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050624225529.GA22420@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Before I e-bay the following items, I'm posting a list here in case anyone's interested in making a reasonable offer or trade. Items are located in western Baltimore County, Maryland. *** Local pick-up only, unless someone makes it very worth my while *** *** to ship these items. *** - Tektronix 4014 terminal. I may have some additional Tektronix-terminal goodies, such as manuals and tapes, but for a different terminal. Shipping this isn't trivial or inexpensive... it cost me well over $100 to have this shipped here years ago. - Over 100 Sun VME-bus boards - Dual expansion chasis with power supply for a Q-bus PDP-11 or VAX - *Possibly* a spare RL02 drive - CRT from an old DuMont oscilloscope - Large drawer for a 19" rack mount chasis... may need some additional hardware, but I may have it all, will look. - Parts of a PDP-11/34A (front panel, boards, power-supply bits) - Umax flat-bed SCSI scanner... doesn't work, but should be good for parts - 17" older HP monitor... very heavy. Notes: Tektronix 4014 terminal: Appears to need an HV PSU repair. Caveat: I began disassembling this several years ago for cleaning and lost some screws that attach the power supply to the chassis. Also, I misplaced my notes about what wires connect where. Although that enormous power supply heat sink is looking very tempting for an audio amplifier project, I'll try to avoid the temptation in the interest of preservation. Sun VME-bus boards: these include several possibly rare boards such as fiber-optic network boards, cable modems, color printer board, etc. Finally, all of these boards are accessible and I've cleaned them up, so AFAIK, there are no spiders, etc. hiding on them. It's my preference to have someone collect them all at once so that I don't have to ship one here and there, etc. Of course, make it very worth my while and I'll consider doing that. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2005 R.D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: an All Rights Reserved unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 other creatures, using dogma to justify such Help to save the wild horses! beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Jun 24 17:53:16 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:53:16 -0500 Subject: Wang paper tape format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42BC8EDC.2040804@pacbell.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I have some paper tapes that I'm trying to read and I have good reason to > believe they are from a Wang machine of some type. > > They seem to hold some sort of document. The writing on the tape > indicates a section number and "pages". > > The tape is 8-level. The 8th bit seems to be used as some sort of > end-of-line or end-of-record marker. The 7th bit seems to be parity. So > the actual symbol codes are likely 6-bit. > > I've read in the tapes and done some cryptanalysis but so far I haven't > been able to see any patterns that would suggest groupings of letters at > certain codes. At this point I'm confused. > > Does anyone know how Wang paper tapes were encoded, or does anyone know > where there is technical documentation about this? So for my searches > online have turned up empty. > http://www.thebattles.net/wang/docs/basic-reference.pdf Page 147 and the next few pages (not of the PDF, but instead page 147 of the original manual numbering) talks about using the DATALOAD command to read paper tapes. It has some information that might be useful. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jun 24 19:02:37 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 01:02:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP11 near Manchester on eBay In-Reply-To: <30584.195.212.29.75.1119362886.squirrel@195.212.29.75> References: <30584.195.212.29.75.1119362886.squirrel@195.212.29.75> Message-ID: <2471.192.168.0.4.1119657757.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5209467994&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > If no-one else is interested, I might bid myself... The seller needs to be spanked into next week for saying he/she/it's never seen one before so therefore it must be a valuable rarity, also there was no cards so you were getting a metal box with PDP 11/03 on the front :o\ -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Fri Jun 24 19:35:01 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What this CDC Cyber Disk Field Tester? (on ebay) In-Reply-To: <2471.192.168.0.4.1119657757.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <30584.195.212.29.75.1119362886.squirrel@195.212.29.75> <2471.192.168.0.4.1119657757.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <16260.207.71.246.177.1119659701.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> Saw this "CDC Field Tester" while looking thru the vintage section on ebay. Anyone know what it is / think they can use it? (note: I'm not the seller, nor do I know them). http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5210163831&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 24 19:50:38 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: <3e3237d5c03ec8b6893787fef53468f0@norbionics.com> References: <200506201611.j5KGBgKe016935@keith.ezwind.net> <3e3237d5c03ec8b6893787fef53468f0@norbionics.com> Message-ID: <20050624174929.K41991@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, [ISO-8859-1] Bj?rn Vermo wrote: > To restore old plastic, one needs to know what kind of polymer, what > kind of plasticisers, and what kind of filler it is made from. > I only took two years of organic chemistry, so I know way too little > about how to proceed, but I have an inkling this is going to be a big > issue for future museum people. So,... is it possible to make a UBIK that can handle most of the case plastics? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 24 20:00:22 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:00:22 -0700 Subject: What this CDC Cyber Disk Field Tester? (on ebay) Message-ID: <42BCACA6.9050009@bitsavers.org> I just realized what it is... It's the exerciser for CDC 5440 fixed/removable discs (OEMed to TI as the DS10) ..of which I have several which need work. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 24 20:25:55 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:25:55 -0400 Subject: Wang paper tape format? In-Reply-To: <17084.15234.29843.160343@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050624212555.00a87100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have a Flexowriter and I'm pretty certain that it doesn't use 8 bit code. IIRC It uses five or six bits. I'll try to remember to go look tomorrow. Joe At 12:57 PM 6/24/05 -0400, you wrote: >>>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: > > Vintage> I have some paper tapes that I'm trying to read and I have > Vintage> good reason to believe they are from a Wang machine of some > Vintage> type. > > Vintage> They seem to hold some sort of document. The writing on the > Vintage> tape indicates a section number and "pages". > > Vintage> The tape is 8-level. The 8th bit seems to be used as some > Vintage> sort of end-of-line or end-of-record marker. The 7th bit > Vintage> seems to be parity. So the actual symbol codes are likely > Vintage> 6-bit. > >I don't have the specific code at hand or in my memory, but that >sounds a lot like a common Flexowriter code. 8th bit by itself for >carriage return fits, as does parity in bit 7. > > paul > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 24 21:31:42 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP11/23+ goes on (and submission for FAQ) In-Reply-To: <20050624000746.H1083@localhost> References: <42B48249.7070409@hachti.de> <20050618133946.R2336@localhost> <17078.52876.883480.454206@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050621193105.73d3d352.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050621190143.Q62142@shell.lmi.net> <20050623195153.602adaff.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050624000746.H1083@localhost> Message-ID: <20050624192612.K41991@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > The point of nylon gloves is that they do not generate lint. > Cotton generates a lot of lint and are no good for disk-drive > repairs. > > Lint-free is the key characteristic. We're talking about gloves made form cotton cloth, NOT cotton swabs. The requirements for photographic use was to be soft enough to not scratch the emulsion, with as little lint as possible. Soft nylon gloves were not readily available then, and "lint-free" cotton gloves (really only LOW-lint) were the lowest lint of anything soft enough that was readily available at the time (30 years ago) From rcini at optonline.net Fri Jun 24 22:12:29 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:12:29 -0400 Subject: Programming 2708's Message-ID: <004601c57933$b8bbb710$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: OK, I'm ready to burn a modified copy of the Altair Turnkey Monitor into a 2708 to use in my 8800b as a test program. Lo and behold, my programmer won't do a 2708 -- it'll only go down to 2716. Naturally I don't have any 2716s around and the VG ROM board accepts only the 2704 or 2708 (without modification). So I browsed around eBay and elsewhere to see if any other programmers support the 2708 and it seems that none do. They all start at the 2716. What programmer can I look for that has the ability to program a 2708? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Jun 24 22:28:57 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:28:57 -0700 Subject: Surplus in Silicon Valley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200506242028570722.1913CA20@192.168.42.129> Hi, Mike, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 24-Jun-05 at 09:23 Mike Loewen wrote: >I'm headed out to the San Francisco area at the end of July: area there >any worthwhile surplus outfits to visit? I'm already planning to hit >Halted and Weird Stuff, just for the hell of it. Ha! I love it when I can self-plug! ;-) Extensive listings and (admittedly biased) reviews of Bay Area surplus places may be found here: http://www.bluefeathertech.com/technoid/calswapindex.html Halted is pretty good for small components in terms of both price and selection. However, BEWARE their test gear area. It is, for the most part, grossly overpriced and undervalued, and it has been that way for many years. I see that you're involved with a robot builder's club. That being the case, Triangle Machine & Tool will likely be of particular interest to you. Happy hunting. I'll be following in your footsteps in the first part of September. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 24 22:29:10 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:29:10 -0700 Subject: Programming 2708's Message-ID: <42BCCF86.7030605@bitsavers.org> What programmer can I look for that has the ability to program a 2708? -- The easiest ones to find will be Data I/0 29s with a Unipak or Unipak 2 INT 2708 EPROM DIP 21/27 VA A From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Jun 24 22:32:55 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:32:55 -0500 Subject: Wang paper tape format? In-Reply-To: <42BC8EDC.2040804@pacbell.net> References: <42BC8EDC.2040804@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <42BCD067.2020209@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> I have some paper tapes that I'm trying to read and I have good reason to >> believe they are from a Wang machine of some type. >> >> They seem to hold some sort of document. The writing on the tape >> indicates a section number and "pages". >> >> The tape is 8-level. The 8th bit seems to be used as some sort of >> end-of-line or end-of-record marker. The 7th bit seems to be parity. So >> the actual symbol codes are likely 6-bit. >> >> I've read in the tapes and done some cryptanalysis but so far I haven't >> been able to see any patterns that would suggest groupings of letters at >> certain codes. At this point I'm confused. >> >> Does anyone know how Wang paper tapes were encoded, or does anyone know >> where there is technical documentation about this? So for my searches >> online have turned up empty. >> > > http://www.thebattles.net/wang/docs/basic-reference.pdf > > Page 147 and the next few pages (not of the PDF, but instead page 147 of > the original manual numbering) talks about using the DATALOAD command to > read paper tapes. It has some information that might be useful. I don't know from which Wang system your paper tape came from, but wang was pretty good about recycling designs to last more than just a point product, especially back when paper tape was in use and Wang wasn't big enough to afford redundant engineering. THe system 2200 hardware pocket guide describes the Model 2203 punched tape reader like this: The Model 2203 Punched Tape Reader reads punched tape at a rate of about 300 characters/sec, reading in either forward or reverse direction. It reads standard one-inch eight-channel tape punched in ASCII code as well as certain narrower non-standard punched tapes. Reading is done optically. From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Jun 24 23:29:20 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:29:20 +0200 Subject: IBM 1130 may need rescue in Austria. In-Reply-To: <1119636139.19435.11.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: Am vrijdag, 24.06.05, um 20:02 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Lawrence Wilkinson: > On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 09:32 -0700, Brian Knittel wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> We just got a brief note at ibm1130.org from a guy who spotted >> an IBM 1130 "looking in a bad state in the street out the back >> of the ibm edinburgh office." >> A similar note was circulated on a local classcmp list : Hi! we are a computerrecycler from Austria/Linz and i have a IBM 1130/1131 for sale, Year 1966 When you interessed may a Bid and mail to computerrecycling at gmx.at. best regards, Klaus Choc Thats all I know about it and although an 1130 is tempting, and this one is close enough, it would be one to many. jos dreesen From cbmpet2001 at yahoo.de Sat Jun 25 04:13:58 2005 From: cbmpet2001 at yahoo.de (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:13:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Ant: Re: IBM 1130 may need rescue in Austria. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050625091358.3219.qmail@web26007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> --- Jos Dreesen schrieb: > > Am vrijdag, 24.06.05, um 20:02 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Lawrence > Wilkinson: > > > On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 09:32 -0700, Brian Knittel wrote: > >> Hi folks, > >> > >> We just got a brief note at ibm1130.org from a guy who spotted > >> an IBM 1130 "looking in a bad state in the street out the back > >> of the ibm edinburgh office." > >> > > A similar note was circulated on a local classcmp list : > > Hi! > we are a computerrecycler from Austria/Linz and i have a IBM > 1130/1131 > for > sale, Year 1966 > When you interessed may a Bid and mail to computerrecycling at gmx.at. > best > regards, Klaus Choc > > > Thats all I know about it and although an 1130 is tempting, and > this one is close enough, it would be one to many. > > > jos dreesen I was offered the machine too. But with about 1000 Euro this was way too much for me and the technical collection at the local museum hasn't got so much money. It's said that this machine is in running state, I don't know about peripherals. Maybe the guys from cray-cyber.org could be interested? Regards, Wolfgang ==================================================== Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger cell.: +43-664-240-65-92 http://www.eichberger.org email: wolfgang at eichberger.org ---------------------------------------------------- Gruentalerstr. 24 - 4020 Linz ? AUSTRIA ==================================================== From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Jun 25 05:00:53 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:00:53 +0100 Subject: PDP11 near Manchester on eBay In-Reply-To: <2471.192.168.0.4.1119657757.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <30584.195.212.29.75.1119362886.squirrel@195.212.29.75> <2471.192.168.0.4.1119657757.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <42BD2B55.9080207@gjcp.net> Witchy wrote: >>http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5209467994&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW >> >>If no-one else is interested, I might bid myself... > > > The seller needs to be spanked into next week for saying he/she/it's never > seen one before so therefore it must be a valuable rarity, also there was > no cards so you were getting a metal box with PDP 11/03 on the front :o\ > Yes yes yes, I saw that *after* I posted. I should write a patch for Thunderbird that locks out sending mail before I've drunk two or three coffees in the morning. Gordon. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Jun 25 07:23:43 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 07:23:43 -0500 Subject: eBay users plagiarizing collectors' content... In-Reply-To: <17081.46953.359818.890994@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200506221829.j5MITp7K023637@keith.ezwind.net> <000001c5775c$a7fb7ba0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <17081.46953.359818.890994@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050625072343.160c5f92.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:09:29 -0400 Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Antonio" == Antonio Carlini writes: > > >> Randy: I know your manuals situation has been discussed here > >> before. It's noble of you to just appreciate the distribution. > >> But you certainly deserve to be compensated for your work. (Guess > >> I wouldn't do so well in the open-source world!) > > Antonio> I'm just taking a wild stab in the dark here, but my guess > Antonio> is that Randy (and Al, and almost anyone else doing any > Antonio> scanning - me too for that matter) would have less than a > Antonio> whole leg to stand on in court! > > Antonio> I don't claim any rights whatsoever to anything I've > Antonio> scanned. I've not heard anyone else here do so either. If > Antonio> you are going to complain that someone is taking things > Antonio> you've scanned and selling them, would it not be reasonable > Antonio> to ask whether the original copyright holder (who presumably > Antonio> had to _pay_ to get the manual written!) might not deserve > Antonio> at least a chance to deny your request to distribute their > Antonio> work? > > Antonio> Apologies to those who have scanned only after having sought > Antonio> permission :-) > > Actually, even then your comment probably holds. > > Clearly a scanner can't hold copyright in the original content. That > leaves compilation copyright. But it's hard to see how that would > apply when the material published is simply a full page by page scan > of the original. > You can probably claim copyright over any lint and odd spots on the scan that are artifacts of your scanning, as 'artistic expression.' From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 25 09:25:18 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:25:18 -0400 Subject: Programming 2708's In-Reply-To: <004601c57933$b8bbb710$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050625102518.00a711b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have a DataI/O model 19 and I think I have a 2708 plug-in for it. The reason that most programmers don't support the 2708 is because it requires three voltages to operate. Come to think of it, I have a couple of old Prolog programmers and I think that I may have 2708 plug-ins for one of them too. FWIW I bought the Prolog units because they were all I could find that would program the 1702s. Joe At 11:12 PM 6/24/05 -0400, you wrote: >All: > > OK, I'm ready to burn a modified copy of the Altair Turnkey Monitor >into a 2708 to use in my 8800b as a test program. Lo and behold, my >programmer won't do a 2708 -- it'll only go down to 2716. Naturally I don't >have any 2716s around and the VG ROM board accepts only the 2704 or 2708 >(without modification). > > So I browsed around eBay and elsewhere to see if any other >programmers support the 2708 and it seems that none do. They all start at >the 2716. > > What programmer can I look for that has the ability to program a >2708? > > Thanks. > >Rich > >Rich Cini >Collector of classic computers >Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project >Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >/************************************************************/ > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 25 11:04:59 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:04:59 -0400 Subject: Another load from Thom! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050625120459.00a2ce40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I visted Thom again yesterday and here's some of what I got. That's two boxs of DECMate and Rainbow docs, a big pile of loose VAX docs, two DSD-440 drives and about five boxs of cards (mostly PDP-8). In other words, another car full! Yes, that's another box full of Cab kits in the middle! The cards in the boxs in the near box are NIB prototyping cards! :-) I brought home a car full last Monday but I already unloaded most of it but here's a teaser showing some of it. . These are all PDP-8 cards. Happy Collecting! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 25 11:03:39 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:03:39 -0400 Subject: id this SMS card? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050625120339.00a2d7f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Can anyone id this card? I can't find anything that looks like a model number on it and it doesn't match the drawings of the three SMS cards on Bitsavers. The most noticable difference is that the other cards have lots of jumpers all over them and this one only has a few (7) near the edge connector. The package that it was in only says "Q-bus SMS Disk IO Bd". The markings on it are Prog Assy 1011939-0002G (the G may be a 6), Assy No SMS 0003773-0001C, Fab 0003772-0001/c2, AW 0003771/B. Sorry for the crummy picture. Joe From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 25 11:25:04 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:25:04 -0500 Subject: Still Available for free In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42BD8560.6090402@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > To help move them along, the Tandy 1000 is an interesting machine. I'm > not sure about the straight 1000 model, but variants of the 1000 have DOS > and even DeskMate (Tandy's windowing environment, which I believe was a > tailored version of early MS windows) in ROM. The Tandy TL/2 in particular is one of my favorite development machines -- if I lock up the machine due to a bug on my part, I hit the reset button and I am back in DOS in 2 seconds (that is not a typo, only 2 seconds). DOS in ROM is cool :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From rickb at bensene.com Sat Jun 25 11:47:02 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:47:02 -0700 Subject: Wang paper tape format? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050625164300.0FCAF97C6B@pail.bensene.com> Sallam Wrote: > > I have some paper tapes that I'm trying to read and I have > good reason to believe they are from a Wang machine of some type. > The first devices that Wang Laboratories made that utilized punched paper tape were numerical control (NC) units for vertical machining centers, such as drills, mills, etc The control units read EIA-standard punched tape (not ASCII). The EIA code is an 8-level code. The 8th bit marks "End of Block". One bit (either 6 or 7, I can't remember) indicated upper or lower case. Another bit (again either 6 or 7) encoded odd parity. Five bits were used to encode the character set, bits 1 through 5. Each numerical control command consisted of codes designated by a single letter, followed by a numeric argument. For example, to move the table to X,Y coordinates of 1.075 and -0.800 inches, the command might be: G01X+1.075Y-0.8 EOB There were various G codes for functions such as moving the table, changing spindle speed, lowering and raising the drill or cutter, pausing for operator intervention, etc. As control units became more capable, other G codes were added for doing things like autmatically machining arcs, performing threading operations, automatic tool changing, etc. At the time (Wang got in the NC business in the late 1950's, mainly due to contract work for Warner Swasey, a large metalworking machine manufacturer), the most common device for preparing punched tape programs for numerical control units was the Friden Flexowriter. The Flexowriter line had many different models, including units that punched custom codes (for early computer consoles on the likes MINIAC, LGP-20/21, early MONROBOT etc.), EIA, and Baudot (5-level tape). The original Flexowriter design wasn't capable of ASCII. The EIA-code Flexowriter is the most common. To diversify business in the early '60's, Wang took a contract to build a typesetting machine, called Linasec. This machine was driven by punched tape. These machines were used at newspaper publishers for setting the type for the printing of the newspaper pages. I have no information on the structure of the data encoded on the punched tape for submittal to these machines, but it could be that you have a tape that was prepared for a Linasec, in which case, it's quite a rarity. The whole story of Linasec is worthy of an article in itself, but suffice it to say that due to the outcome of the Linasec project, Wang Labs found it necessary to develop another primary product base, which spawned the beginning of the calculator business. Wang also used punched tape units in their calculator line. Peripheral devices were available for Wang's LOCI-2 calculator that allowed the machine to read and punch tape, as well as for many other later Wang calculators. In the calculator arena, all of the devices responded to the ASCII code. As the calculator business became far too competitive, Wang entered the word processing marketplace, with the 1200-series word processor. These machines were based on the "CPU" design of the 700 and 600-series calculators, but with different microcode to perform basic word-processing applications. These machines utilized a modified IBM selectric typewriter for input/output, but also had a separate punched paper tape reader/punch. My memory fails as to whether EIA or ASCII was used on the 1200-series. Later Wang word processing systems changed over to using magnetic tape(audio cassette form factor with specialized tape formulations for storing digital data) for storing documents. It could be that the tape you have is for a 1200-series word processor -- again, a rather rare find. The 1200-series didn't last very long, as it was sabotaged by IBM, which failed to include an important spring in the Selectrics provided to Wang, which made the machines type unreliably. With all that said (I hope the story is interesting), my guess is that you have an EIA encoded tape, because of the single punch in the 8th bit, which was indicative of the EIA code. If it isn't EIA, then it might be a custom variation of the EIA code specifically for the Linasec or 1200-series machine, in which case, using EIA as a base may help in determining what the tape says. Typesetting and word-processing, by their nature (with various fonts and sizes, type fonts, justification modes, etc.), may have required extending or changing the encoding on the tape, or developing a completely new type of code to represent the various typesetting functions in a form most easily digested by the relatively simple electronics (all discrete diode-transistor logic) that Linasec was built from. Given the notation of "pages", it's not likely to be a numerical control tape. I'm curious, what led you to the conclusion that the tape was prepared or generated for/on Wang equipment? Best to all, Rick Bensene The Old Calcualtor Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com Beavercreek, Oregon From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Jun 25 12:19:13 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:19:13 -0400 Subject: Programming 2708's In-Reply-To: <004601c57933$b8bbb710$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: > OK, I'm ready to burn a modified copy of the Altair Turnkey Monitor > into a 2708 to use in my 8800b as a test program. Lo and behold, my > programmer won't do a 2708 -- it'll only go down to 2716. > What programmer can I look for that has the ability to program a > 2708? Cromemco 8K Bytesaver in an S-100 system. From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Jun 25 15:52:48 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:52:48 -0400 Subject: Wang paper tape format? References: <3.0.6.32.20050624212555.00a87100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <17085.50208.648980.709329@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: Joe> I have a Flexowriter and I'm pretty certain that it doesn't use Joe> 8 bit code. IIRC It uses five or six bits. I'll try to remember Joe> to go look tomorrow. It varies. There are assorted different Flexowriter codes. I'm positive that one of the ones used at the Technical University Eindhoven used bit 8 (alone) for the carriage return code, while all other codes indeed used only the bottom 7 bits. paul From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Jun 25 16:04:37 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:04:37 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 manual Message-ID: <005001c579c9$7fbb5ce0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi, does anyone know of an on-line manual for the RQDX3 disk controller? Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 25 16:21:06 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:21:06 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 manual In-Reply-To: <005001c579c9$7fbb5ce0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000001c579cb$cd90ad60$5b01a8c0@flexpc> does anyone know of an on-line manual for the RQDX3 disk controller? The printset is here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP02259_RQDX3_schem_Oct85.pdf I have a scan of EK-RQDX3-UG-001 "RQDX3 Controller Module User's Guide" which does not appear online. Email me if you want it, and I'll see that it gets put up somewhere soon. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 25 16:24:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:24:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Programming 2708's In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050625102518.00a711b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 25, 5 10:25:18 am Message-ID: > > I have a DataI/O model 19 and I think I have a 2708 plug-in for it. The > reason that most programmers don't support the 2708 is because it requires > three voltages to operate. Come to think of it, I have a couple of old Not just that, the programming algorithm is different to most other EPROMs. IIRC you have to program all locations in sequence, giving each one a 1ms (IIRC) programming pulse, and repeat that 50 times. You can't program odd locations like you can in later EPROMs. FWIW, I thiok the 3rd party progammer I have for the Nascom does 2708s. And I haev at least one plug-in card for the Apple ][ that claims to program them. And a stnad-alone programmer controlled by an SC/MP that does just about everything from 2704s to 2732s. -tony From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jun 25 16:52:52 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:52:52 -0700 Subject: Programming 2708's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200506251452520934.1D067A83@192.168.42.129> Hi, gang, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 25-Jun-05 at 22:24 ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >> >> I have a DataI/O model 19 and I think I have a 2708 plug-in for it. The >> reason that most programmers don't support the 2708 is because it >requires >> three voltages to operate. Come to think of it, I have a couple of old > >Not just that, the programming algorithm is different to most other >EPROMs. IIRC you have to program all locations in sequence, giving each >one a 1ms (IIRC) programming pulse, and repeat that 50 times. You can't >program odd locations like you can in later EPROMs. Out of curiousity, I checked the support list for my UniSite system. Sure enough, it supports the 2708's. However, it won't do 2704's. I suspect that support for multi-voltage devices like the '08's would only be found in very old device programmers (like the Model 19), and in much later 'pin-driver' technology type systems (like the UniSite), with little or no crossover in between the high and low-end. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sat Jun 25 17:31:45 2005 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:31:45 -0400 Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading Message-ID: <42BDDB51.80402@bellsouth.net> > And on another note, is ZXTAPE sensitive to cpu speed? Absolutely. I went through 4 PCs before I found one (a '286) which worked with ZXTAPE. I set the '286 up in a corner as a file server for the ZX81 several years ago and fire it up as needed. Another author (with the permission of Wilf Rigter) has made available a version of ZXTAPE which claims to run well on Pentium-based machines, but I've no experience with it. Regarding software -- all you could ever want can be found at these links: University of Trondheim: ftp://ftp.nvg.unit.no/pub/sinclair/zx81/ Official ZXTEAM site: http://www.zx81.de/ The World of Spectrum: http://www.worldofspectrum.org/ The last is primarily a Spectrum site but has quite a number of ZX81 programs available as well. Later -- Glen 0/0 From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jun 25 18:48:00 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 19:48:00 -0400 Subject: Free AC power cords, Washington DC Message-ID: <42BDED30.nailBKV114BBU@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> If anyone needs approx 40 IEC line cords - mostly 6 feet, but some shorter and some longer - to provide AC power to their older but not antique computers, I've got a bunch available for free. I'm just outside Washington DC. E-mail me at my non-list address, shoppa at trailing-edge.com, with IEC in the subject if you're interested. Will not ship, but will gladly let you pick up as many as you need. None of these are the "ribbed" 20A variety, sorry. Tim. From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 25 18:49:33 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:49:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Programming 2708's Message-ID: <20050625234933.69998.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >> What programmer can I look for that has the ability to program a >> 2708? I have a Softy 2 that can do it if you're really stuck. > Not just that, the programming algorithm is different to most > other EPROMs. IIRC you have to program all locations in sequence, > giving each one a 1ms (IIRC) programming pulse, and repeat that > 50 times. Any bit in any byte can be individually programmed from 1 to 0. There are no sequence requirements, the programming pulse is one pulse of 50ms per location programmed. > You can't program odd locations like you can in later EPROMs. You can, it's EPROM microcontrollers like the 68705 that need to be programmed in sequence. Lee. ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Jun 25 19:42:59 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 19:42:59 -0500 Subject: Programming 2708's References: <20050625234933.69998.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701c579e8$00e33130$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "lee davison" Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 6:49 PM >>> What programmer can I look for that has the ability to program a >>> 2708? > > I have a Softy 2 that can do it if you're really stuck. > >> Not just that, the programming algorithm is different to most >> other EPROMs. IIRC you have to program all locations in sequence, >> giving each one a 1ms (IIRC) programming pulse, and repeat that >> 50 times. > > Any bit in any byte can be individually programmed from 1 to 0. > There are no sequence requirements, the programming pulse is one > pulse of 50ms per location programmed. > >> You can't program odd locations like you can in later EPROMs. > > You can, it's EPROM microcontrollers like the 68705 that need to > be programmed in sequence. > > Lee. The 2708 can be programmed non-sequentially and the pulse can either be one 50ms or multiple shorter pulses that adds up to 50ms. There are other "fast" techniques where you write with a short pulse, read and rewrite until all cells verify then run one more short pulse write. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 25 20:59:57 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 02:59:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Programming 2708's Message-ID: <20050626015958.34027.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > OK, I'm ready to burn a modified copy of the Altair Turnkey > Monitor into a 2708 to use in my 8800b as a test program. Lo > and behold, my programmer won't do a 2708 -- it'll only go down > to 2716. Naturally I don't have any 2716s around and the VG > ROM board accepts only the 2704 or 2708 (without modification). How about making an adapter from sockets to use a bigger EPROM such as a 2764/128/256 ? You can do this without madifying the VG ROM board and you'll have it next time you need to fill a 2708 socket. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 25 22:51:55 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:51:55 -0500 Subject: yellowed murky plastic In-Reply-To: <20050623195833.79fbac59.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050623195833.79fbac59.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42BE265B.3060002@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > Isn't that what the Amiga designers did? I seem to recall that all the > major chips had girl's names. Yep! Paula, Agnus, Denise... More info here: http://foldoc.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?Amiga -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 25 23:03:30 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:03:30 -0500 Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: <575131af0506220815c0b376a@mail.gmail.com> References: <2e6e307d4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <575131af0506220815c0b376a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42BE2912.2080204@oldskool.org> Liam Proven wrote: > Yes, pretty much. 2K instead of 1K as standard, AFAICR. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TS1000 > > Which IIRC I wrote... :?) Along these lines, I have a nice Timex Sinclair 1000 package if anyone is interested. Main machine, memory expansion IIRC, commerical program diskettes, and lots of technical documentation. If interested, email me and I can dig it out and get a full list of materials. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Jun 26 03:32:09 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:32:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Programming 2708's In-Reply-To: lee davison "Programming 2708's" (Jun 26, 0:49) References: <20050625234933.69998.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10506260932.ZM7949@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 26 2005, 0:49, lee davison wrote: > > >> What programmer can I look for that has the ability to program a > >> 2708? > > I have a Softy 2 that can do it if you're really stuck. > > > Not just that, the programming algorithm is different to most > > other EPROMs. IIRC you have to program all locations in sequence, > > giving each one a 1ms (IIRC) programming pulse, and repeat that > > 50 times. > > Any bit in any byte can be individually programmed from 1 to 0. > There are no sequence requirements, the programming pulse is one > pulse of 50ms per location programmed. Not on any of mine. Some later EPROM types can be programed either way, but not original 2708s. > > You can't program odd locations like you can in later EPROMs. > > You can, it's EPROM microcontrollers like the 68705 that need to > be programmed in sequence. Sure you're not looking at the specs for a 2716? Tony's information is correct for a 3-rail 2708 according to my Intel, Motorola, Texas data books. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 26 11:53:56 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:53:56 +0000 Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector (+ floppy drive info) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1119804836.21880.69.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-06-11 at 00:35 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Fri, 2005-06-10 at 00:09 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Alas I don't have a Nascom 1 schematic... > > > > Well the Nascom 1 *keyboard* schematic is online on a Nascom site along > > I've now taken a look at that.... > > Initially I was puzzled. It makes no sense at all if the keys are simple > switches.... Tell me (as I can't get to my Nascom at the moment), how > many connections does each key have? > > My guess (again) is that these keys are actually magnetic. There are 2 > loops of wire trough a little magnetic torroid core. Pressing a key brings a > magnet against the core, changing its magnetic properties, anf thus the > coupling between the loops. > > Each of the lines on the matrix in the schematic is a set of these loops > in series. Horizontal lines are the sense loops, vertical lines are the > drive loops. That would explain the cryptic comment on the schematics > that the order of keys in the matrix may not be the electrical order on > the PCB. I *still* haven't looked at this (car stuff took precedence over futzing around with the Nascom!) I have, however, found a few useful odds and ends relating to the Nascom floppy drive board. A3 schematic of the controller board (it uses an FD1793 or 1797 IC). "Nascom floppy disc drive instructions" containing basic installation routines. It mentions NASDOS, which was a 4K ROM-based DOS for the Nascom 2 or 3 which provided disk utilities and program hooks. It also says that DR CP/M 2.2 was available for the Nascom. "Nascom floppy disc controller hardware manual" gives details of all the links / pin assignments / IO ports for the controller board. 26 page overview of the NASDOS ROM - operation, disk layout, error messages etc. I can add them to the scan pile if they're not available anywhere already. The quality on the NASDOS overview doc isn't up to OCR standard really (think it's a fuzzy photocopy of a dot matrix printout to be honest) but the others are all decent enough quality. I should really check to see if I can find a copy of the NASDOS ROM first though (we have a machine that should have the FDC board in it I think, but if it was set up to only run CP/M maybe it doesn't have the NASDOS ROMs fitted). Not much use scanning the NASDOS manual if the ROM no longer exists anywhere! cheers Jules From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Jun 26 12:18:09 2005 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:18:09 -0400 Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading Message-ID: <42BEE351.7030304@bellsouth.net> Jim wrote: > Along these lines, I have a nice Timex Sinclair 1000 package if anyone > is interested. Main machine, memory expansion IIRC, commerical > program diskettes, and lots of technical documentation. If > interested, email me and I can dig it out and get a full list of > materials. Umm, I take it you mean *cassettes* ?? Later -- Glen 0/0 From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Jun 26 13:00:17 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:00:17 -0400 Subject: Programming 2708's In-Reply-To: <200506261700.j5QH0kQl017537@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200506261800.j5QI09HI001183@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> The best way to program 2708's is with a Cromemco Bytesaver in an S-100 system (I think someone already said that). There were 3 versions of the Bytesaver: -Bytesaver I (2708) -Bytesaver II (2708) -32K Bytesaver (2716's) The primary difference between version I and version II was that version II had "bank select" and could much better coexist in a system without removing RAM memory to make a "hole" in the memory map. In fact, with version II of the 2708 bytesaver and the 32k Bytesaver, you could have a full 64k memory map of RAM and both Bytesavers (2708 and 2716) in the machine at the same time, and the programming software could do the necessary bank switching to manipulate the memory map. Definitely try to get the Bytesaver II for 2708 burning. I have software to do the programming as well, and there were some Bytesaver burning programs in the CP/M user's group. There was a listing and paper tape that came with the program (the listing is in the manual), but it was crude and rudimentary, however the "burn nucleus" can be used with a more sophisticated front end. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sun Jun 26 13:14:57 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:14:57 +0100 Subject: Torch Computers Ltd PSU available - anyone need a spare? Message-ID: I have here a Farnell N110P411 open-chassis SMPSU. On a relay on one end of the board there is a white sticker with the text "TORCH COMPUTERS LTD (C) 1983" and a QC stamp. If anyone would like this (free, you pay shipping) as a spare part or for a repair/restoration, please speak up by private email. I'm clearing out some old stuff and I won't be able to keep this for too much longer before it gets recycled. Ed. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 26 13:43:39 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:43:39 +0000 Subject: Torch Computers Ltd PSU available - anyone need a spare? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1119811419.21880.72.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-06-26 at 19:14 +0100, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > I have here a Farnell N110P411 open-chassis SMPSU. On a relay on one > end of the board there is a white sticker with the text "TORCH > COMPUTERS LTD (C) 1983" and a QC stamp. I expect that's the one used in the Torch Triple-X - it's about 125W I think... cheers Jules From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jun 26 13:43:19 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:43:19 -0500 Subject: Timex/Sinclair 1000 Tape Loading In-Reply-To: <42BEE351.7030304@bellsouth.net> References: <42BEE351.7030304@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <42BEF747.3090906@oldskool.org> Glen Goodwin wrote: > > program diskettes, and lots of technical documentation. If > > interested, email me and I can dig it out and get a full list of > > materials. > > Umm, I take it you mean *cassettes* ?? Yes, sorry :-) About 20 or so commercial program tapes, and a handful copied ones. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Jun 26 15:57:57 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:57:57 -0400 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <200506221833.j5MIXRCx025456@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200506221833.j5MIXRCx025456@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <42BF16D5.9050806@compsys.to> >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>So tell me, what are the really cool methods to transfer data between a >>PC and a real PDP11 at a reasonable speed? SCSI controller and SCSI >>disk? Something else? Ethernet? >> >>Or is a backup over serial line a normal thing...? >> >> > >It helps that I have SCSI Controllers on my operational PDP-11's. I use >removable disk trays that allow me to move the HD's between PDP-11's, and >more importantly to hook them up to a Unix box, at which point I can use >'dd' to back them up. The resulting disk images can be accessed via SIMH, >E11, or burned to a CD-R and accessed on the real PDP-11 HW. I've managed >to boot and install RT-11, RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ from CD-R. I've yet to >figure out how to do that with RSTS/E. I also typically have either a TZ30 >(half-height SCSI TK50 drive), or a TLZ06 (4mm DAT) drive hooked up. I >prefer to use DAT, however, RSTS/E software doesn't really like trying to be >installed from DAT. > > > Jerome Fine replies: Since the most expensive part of a SCSI connection to a real DEC Qbus backplane with a PDP-11 is the SCSI Qbus host adapter, then if anyone already has one, I recommend a magneto optical (with removable media) disk drive. While 300 MBytes these days is very small, about 5 years ago, I purchased a number of Sony SMO S-501 magneto optical disk drives (when they were already 10 years old). I also have a good quantity of media - which since they are double-sided (but the drives can read ONLY one side at a time) actually hold 600 MBytes in total. And since the drives are much faster than both a TK50 and a TK70 (aside from also being random access), they are much better than both tapes. Since I don't know how fast a TLZ06 tape drive performs, I can't comment. As for a transfer between different systems, I find that the magneto optical is both fast enough and large enough for everything I can imagine using RT-11. The cost of a Sony SMO S-501 is small compared to a SCSI Qbus host adapter, so I usually have one on each system that uses the media. In addition, for RT-11, 300 MBytes (8 RT-11 partitions) is sufficient to provide backup capability. This dual use (transfer and backup) more than justifies the magneto optical media on a PDP-11 as far as I am concerned. >Ethernet using either TCP/IP or DECnet is another option that I use to >transfer data, but I try to only use that for small amounts of data. One of >these days I plan to go wireless with my PDP-11. I'd also like to see if I >can't get a SCSI DVD-ROM drive running, but considering the difficulty with >getting a CD-ROM drive to work, I have some doubts on getting that to work. > One thing about a CDROM drive as opposed to a DVD drive on a PC is that the normal (IDE) CDROM drive was not able to read the first 64 blocks (16 CD sectors) of the CD under E11 using RT-11. My DVD drive on the PC does allow E11 under Windows 98 SE to read those first 64 blocks of the CD and I can BOOT RT-11 on the PC under E11. As a result, I do not have much of an incentive to acquire a CDROM drive that will work with my SCSI Qbus host adapter on the PDP-11. If ever anyone is discarding such a CDROM drive, please let me know. It would be "nice" to be able to boot from a CDROM drive on a real DEC PDP-11 system. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Sun Jun 26 16:21:42 2005 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:21:42 +0100 Subject: PDP11 near Manchester on eBay In-Reply-To: <42BD2B55.9080207@gjcp.net> References: <30584.195.212.29.75.1119362886.squirrel@195.212.29.75> <2471.192.168.0.4.1119657757.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42BD2B55.9080207@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <11c909eb05062614212f5c440@mail.gmail.com> On 6/25/05, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Witchy wrote: > >>http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5209467994&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > >> > >>If no-one else is interested, I might bid myself... > > > > > > The seller needs to be spanked into next week for saying he/she/it's never > > seen one before so therefore it must be a valuable rarity, also there was > > no cards so you were getting a metal box with PDP 11/03 on the front :o\ > > > > Yes yes yes, I saw that *after* I posted. I should write a patch for > Thunderbird that locks out sending mail before I've drunk two or three > coffees in the morning. > > Gordon. > The seller is just off the motorway on my daily commute and I called in to have alook, as soon as I peeked through the ventilation grill it was apparent there were no cards in there. It was a pull from Jodrell Bank, I suspect a spare that had been sitting around for a good while and the lack of any test sticker on the mains cable makes me suspect care would be needed powering it up. I said it wasn't worth 50 quid and the seller agreed, said he'd see if he could get the correct cards for it (good luck I thought) and put it up again if it didn't sell, the ebay listing was changed while I was in the shop. I expect it will pop up again but without any cards it's a bit of a boat anchor. I couldn't see a manuf date anywhere on the enclosure, anyone know when 11/03s were last made/sold? -- -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 26 17:26:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:26:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Programming 2708's In-Reply-To: <20050625234933.69998.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> from "lee davison" at Jun 26, 5 00:49:33 am Message-ID: > > Not just that, the programming algorithm is different to most > > other EPROMs. IIRC you have to program all locations in sequence, > > giving each one a 1ms (IIRC) programming pulse, and repeat that > > 50 times. > > Any bit in any byte can be individually programmed from 1 to 0. > There are no sequence requirements, the programming pulse is one > pulse of 50ms per location programmed. Well, I'll admit that I was working from memory last night, but I've just checked the Intel 1977 Data Catalog : Under '2708/2704 family programming it says : 'The circuit is set up for programming operation by raising the CS/WE input (pin 20) to +12V. The word address is selected in the same manner as in read mode. Data to be programmed are presented, 8 bits in parallel, to the data output lines (O1--O8). Logic Levels for address and data lines and the supply voltages are the same as for the read mode. After address and data set up, one program pulse per address is applied to the program input (pin 18). One pass through all addresses is defined as a rpgoram loop. The number of loops (N) requirded is a function of the program pulse width (t_PW) addording to N * t_PW >= 100ms. The width of the program pulse is from 0.1 to 1 ms. The number of loops (N) is from a minimum of 100 (t_PW = 1ms) to greater than 1000 (t_PW = 0.1ms). There must be N successive loops through all 1024 addresses. It is not pwemitted to apply N program pulses to an address and then chenage to the next address to be programmed. ...' > > You can't program odd locations like you can in later EPROMs. > > You can, it's EPROM microcontrollers like the 68705 that need to > be programmed in sequence. Maybe other manufactures had simpler algorithms for their 2708s, but the Intel data book makes it very clear you do have to program all locations. (It gives examples where only some locations are to be changed. The unchanged ones have to be reprogrammed with their existing contents, you can't skip over them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 26 17:36:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:36:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Torch Computers Ltd PSU available - anyone need a spare? In-Reply-To: <1119811419.21880.72.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 26, 5 06:43:39 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 2005-06-26 at 19:14 +0100, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > > I have here a Farnell N110P411 open-chassis SMPSU. On a relay on one > > end of the board there is a white sticker with the text "TORCH > > COMPUTERS LTD (C) 1983" and a QC stamp. > > I expect that's the one used in the Torch Triple-X - it's about 125W I > think... I am pretty sure the Quad-X used the same PSU, but I am not pulling the not-quite-complte one out from under my bed to check. If it is this supply, it's a fairly standard SMPSU giving the normal outputs, with a soft power switch. THere are 2 contacts at the front of the PSU chassis (connected to a 0.1" 'Minicon' on the PCB) that go to the touch switch contacts themselves. TOuching those turns on the relay (powered by the NiCd on the board), it's held on by a signal from the mainboard, which can then also turn the supply (and thus the machine) off. I have a hand-drawn schematic of the XXX supply (and the rest of the machine for that matter). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 26 17:40:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:40:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nascom 2 keyboard connector (+ floppy drive info) In-Reply-To: <1119804836.21880.69.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 26, 5 04:53:56 pm Message-ID: > > Initially I was puzzled. It makes no sense at all if the keys are simple > > switches.... Tell me (as I can't get to my Nascom at the moment), how > > many connections does each key have? > > > > My guess (again) is that these keys are actually magnetic. There are 2 > > loops of wire trough a little magnetic torroid core. Pressing a key brings a > > magnet against the core, changing its magnetic properties, anf thus the > > coupling between the loops. I've spent some more time on the HP9845 keybaord. There's one correction to that dsecription, pressing the key moves the magnet away from the torroid, thus desaturating it and increasing the coupling between the loops. The 9845 electronics (and it seems to be similar to that used in the HP250, the printset for which is on bitsavers). It's quite different to the Nascom 1 schematic, but I suspect the keys may well be similar. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 26 18:21:00 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:21:00 +0000 Subject: Torch Computers Ltd PSU available - anyone need a spare? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1119828060.21898.86.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-06-26 at 23:36 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Sun, 2005-06-26 at 19:14 +0100, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > > > I have here a Farnell N110P411 open-chassis SMPSU. On a relay on one > > > end of the board there is a white sticker with the text "TORCH > > > COMPUTERS LTD (C) 1983" and a QC stamp. > > > > I expect that's the one used in the Torch Triple-X - it's about 125W I > > think... > > I am pretty sure the Quad-X used the same PSU, but I am not pulling the > not-quite-complte one out from under my bed to check. Yep, that's my recollection too. Same deal as you though, the Triple-X and Quad-X machines are in the loft and I wasn't motivated enough to go dig them out! :-) Having said that, I think the Torch 725 has a Farnell PSU in it (just not with the soft-start of the T-X or Q-X). Hence it might be a supply for one of those (lack of the NiCd would be a clue there) I have a feeling the Triple-X VME expansion slice used its own Farnell PSU too. > I have a hand-drawn schematic of the XXX supply (and the rest of the > machine for that matter). And you were kind enough to furnish me with a copy of that :-) I think it was the only Torch schematic that I didn't have... cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 26 18:25:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:25:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Torch Computers Ltd PSU available - anyone need a spare? In-Reply-To: <1119828060.21898.86.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 26, 5 11:21:00 pm Message-ID: > Having said that, I think the Torch 725 has a Farnell PSU in it (just > not with the soft-start of the T-X or Q-X). Hence it might be a supply > for one of those (lack of the NiCd would be a clue there) The presense of the relay suggests some kind of remote power switching. > > I have a feeling the Triple-X VME expansion slice used its own Farnell > PSU too. You mean the quinring? (the slimring, one slot VME slice, took its power from the main PSU). There should be a schematics for the PSU in my quinring i nthe pile of schematics I gave you, I can't remember if it's a Farnell unit or not. > > > I have a hand-drawn schematic of the XXX supply (and the rest of the > > machine for that matter). > > And you were kind enough to furnish me with a copy of that :-) I think > it was the only Torch schematic that I didn't have... YOu mean you have the complete Quad-X schematic? I'd like to see that sometime... -tony From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Jun 26 21:01:21 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:01:21 -0500 Subject: Programming 2708's References: Message-ID: <000601c57abc$482e95a0$15f6fc04@Randy2> From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 5:26 PM >> > Not just that, the programming algorithm is different to most >> > other EPROMs. IIRC you have to program all locations in sequence, >> > giving each one a 1ms (IIRC) programming pulse, and repeat that >> > 50 times. >> >> Any bit in any byte can be individually programmed from 1 to 0. >> There are no sequence requirements, the programming pulse is one >> pulse of 50ms per location programmed. > > Well, I'll admit that I was working from memory last night, but I've just > checked the Intel 1977 Data Catalog : > > Under '2708/2704 family programming it says : > > 'The circuit is set up for programming operation by raising the CS/WE > input (pin 20) to +12V. The word address is selected in the same manner > as in read mode. Data to be programmed are presented, 8 bits in parallel, > to the data output lines (O1--O8). Logic Levels for address and data > lines and the supply voltages are the same as for the read mode. After > address and data set up, one program pulse per address is applied to the > program input (pin 18). One pass through all addresses is defined as a > rpgoram loop. The number of loops (N) requirded is a function of the > program pulse width (t_PW) addording to N * t_PW >= 100ms. > > The width of the program pulse is from 0.1 to 1 ms. The number of loops > (N) is from a minimum of 100 (t_PW = 1ms) to greater than 1000 (t_PW = > 0.1ms). There must be N successive loops through all 1024 addresses. It > is not pwemitted to apply N program pulses to an address and then chenage > to the next address to be programmed. > ...' > > >> > You can't program odd locations like you can in later EPROMs. >> >> You can, it's EPROM microcontrollers like the 68705 that need to >> be programmed in sequence. > > Maybe other manufactures had simpler algorithms for their 2708s, but the > Intel data book makes it very clear you do have to program all locations. > > (It gives examples where only some locations are to be changed. The > unchanged ones have to be reprogrammed with their existing contents, you > can't skip over them. > > -tony Intel changed the specifications of the 2708 a couple of times, later docs state it does not require programming from address 0. I have changed individual bits (only from a high to low, to go from low to high the entire chip must be erased). The later docs still state sequential writing but no longer require starting at 0 but I have written non sequentially and can swear by that. I wrote a program that verified before writing to speed up programming, this skipped many bytes and I used it to modify previously written EPROM's. The buffer in RAM was sequentially read but the writing was NOT sequential it would skip bytes when a write was not needed. Any byte can have high bits changed to low even if they were previously programmed. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From tomj at wps.com Sun Jun 26 20:59:14 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang paper tape format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050626185626.Y1083@localhost> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > >> I don't have the specific code at hand or in my memory, but that >> sounds a lot like a common Flexowriter code. 8th bit by itself for >> carriage return fits, as does parity in bit 7. > > That's what I thought as well, but I couldn't find any references to > Flexowriter encoding either :( The problem is there are MANY flexowriter codes. Flexos were customized for all sorts of installations. There is no single standard code. The one attached to my LGP-21, for example, is modified to generate LGP-21 opcodes ("B" generates the BRING opcode, for example). You'll need to find the code used with the Wang product(s) or use standard code-breaking techniques to work it out. Should be easy since it's plaintext. From vrs at msn.com Sun Jun 26 23:17:07 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:17:07 -0700 Subject: Straight-8 on eBay Message-ID: Anyone want to ship this thing across the USA for me :-)? Looks like a beauty! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5213265141&rd=1 Vince From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 26 23:22:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Straight-8 on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Jun 2005, vrs wrote: > Anyone want to ship this thing across the USA for me :-)? Looks like a > beauty! > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5213265141&rd=1 Oh Gawd. With dkdkk around, this is going to be REALLY interesting. Hopefully this is the one that breaks him ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jun 26 23:39:39 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:39:39 -0500 Subject: Straight-8 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200506262339.39204.pat@computer-refuge.org> Vintage Computer Festival declared on Sunday 26 June 2005 11:22 pm: > On Sun, 26 Jun 2005, vrs wrote: > > Anyone want to ship this thing across the USA for me :-)? Looks > > like a beauty! > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=521 > >3265141&rd=1 > > Oh Gawd. > > With dkdkk around, this is going to be REALLY interesting. Hopefully > this is the one that breaks him ;) If dkdkk is Ed Sharp, he's already got 2 of them last we talked... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Mon Jun 27 01:42:01 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:42:01 -0700 Subject: IBM Powerstation Progress! In-Reply-To: <42BF9A76.4000603@soupwizard.com> References: <200506221641.JAA15030@clulw009.amd.com> <200506240021.00381.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200506240551.BAA15518@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <42BF9A76.4000603@soupwizard.com> Message-ID: <42BF9FB9.8060604@soupwizard.com> Thanks for all the suggestions about the IBM Powerstations and AIX. I dragged my new collection out this weekend and was able to hack the boxes open and get the serial consoles working!. Luckily one of them (a 7011-250, forgot I had that one) had the lock left in Service - with that I was able to verify a working serial connection. Things progressed quickly after that. Using a screwdriver I pried the lid open on one of the locked (Normal key setting) Powerstation 7012-370's, was able to get the lid off and disassemble the lock and turn the switch to Service with a screwdriver. All with no permanent damage to the case or lock! I then could boot off an external plextor cdrom with the diagnostics disk, and verify things work. Btw, I was able to copy the IBM diagnostics disk with Nero; will try next to see if I can make a standard ISO image of the diagnostic cdrom using my freebsd box. So far I have one 250 with 48MB ram, a 370 with 64MB ram (one 8 x 8MB board), and a 360 with 128MB (two 8 x 8MB boards). They have some random 2GB scsi disks in them, and have ethernet interfaces for talking to the internets. Next step is to get AIX 4.3.3 install cdroms and reinstall everything. Oh, and find out what's in the other three 7012-370 boxes I have. With those I'll document (with photos) the "Breaking and Entering Into, and Hotwiring, a 7012-300 Series Box" saga. Thanks, Jeff --- Twelve Step "How to Mountain Bike" Program: Step One: Falling and Hurting Yourself A Great Deal From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Jun 27 05:26:47 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:26:47 +0200 (MEST) Subject: Straight-8 on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Jun 2005, vrs wrote: > Anyone want to ship this thing across the USA for me :-)? Looks like a > beauty! > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5213265141&rd=1 OMG, that thing is beautiful...... --f From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 27 05:35:02 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:35:02 +0000 Subject: Straight-8 on eBay In-Reply-To: <003c01c57acf$15a9ddc0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> References: <003c01c57acf$15a9ddc0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <1119868502.23297.3.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-06-26 at 21:17 -0700, vrs wrote: > Anyone want to ship this thing across the USA for me :-)? Looks like a > beauty! :-) Out of interest, what drives are those? Our 8 has a pair of Dectape 55's, which have bronze-coloured faceplates rather than the black of the Ebay system. Is Dectape 55 a different animal to TU55? cheers Jules From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Jun 27 05:56:32 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:56:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <200506221700.j5MH02SK071082@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506221700.j5MH02SK071082@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Guy" == Guy Sotomayor writes: > > >> So tell me, what are the really cool methods to transfer data > >> between a PC and a real PDP11 at a reasonable speed? SCSI > >> controller and SCSI disk? Something else? Ethernet? > >> > >> Or is a backup over serial line a normal thing...? > > Guy> I found that the best way to backup/restore is to use tape. I > Guy> have a TU80 on the PDP and a SCSI 9-track on the PC. Works > Guy> great and is much faster than the serial line. > > Ethernet is another good way; DECnet is available on Linux. Unfortunately, the DECnet for Linux sucks so bad it isn't usable. Well, it is kindof usable if you want to talk with a VMS machine, but it don't work against RSX. I've tried it... :-( Appearantly the DECnet/Linux guys only have had VMS machines to test against, and I didn't manage to stir much interest when I reported how badly it failed with RSX. I only got responses like "well, that don't surprise us, since we've only tested against VMS". (I haven't tried DECnet/Linux against VMS, so I don't know if it works, but that's what they say anyway.) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Jun 27 06:02:15 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:02:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <200506222036.j5MKaGFd074878@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506222036.j5MKaGFd074878@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > So tell me, what are the really cool methods to transfer data between a > > PC and a real PDP11 at a reasonable speed? SCSI controller and SCSI > > disk? Something else? Ethernet? > > > > Or is a backup over serial line a normal thing...? > > It helps that I have SCSI Controllers on my operational PDP-11's. SCSI makes life easy, yes... :-) > Ethernet using either TCP/IP or DECnet is another option that I use to > transfer data, but I try to only use that for small amounts of data. One of > these days I plan to go wireless with my PDP-11. I'd also like to see if I > can't get a SCSI DVD-ROM drive running, but considering the difficulty with > getting a CD-ROM drive to work, I have some doubts on getting that to work. Huh? You had problems getting a CD to work? I just plugged one in, and in RSX I suddenly had a DU device of the type RRD40. >dev du: DU0: Public Mounted Loaded Label=RSX11MPBL87 Type=RA90 Shadow_set=(DU0:,DU1:) Cached DU1: Public Mounted Loaded Foreign Type=RA90 Shadow_set=(DU0:,DU1:) DU2: Public Mounted Loaded Label=RSXFREEV2 Nowrite Type=RRD40 Cached DU3: Loaded Type=RA90 DU4: Loaded Type=RA90 DU5: Public Mounted Loaded Label=MALIN0 Nowrite Type=RA81 Cached DU6: Offline Loaded Type=unknown DU7: Offline Loaded Type=unknown DU10: Offline Loaded Type=unknown DU11: Offline Loaded Type=unknown > I haven't tried a DVD, and I'm not sure I ever will. Can't really see the point. :-) I plan on getting a ZIP in there some day, though. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Jun 27 06:16:26 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:16:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Straight-8 on eBay In-Reply-To: <200506262339.39204.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200506262339.39204.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Jun 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> With dkdkk around, this is going to be REALLY interesting. Hopefully >> this is the one that breaks him ;) > > If dkdkk is Ed Sharp, he's already got 2 of them last we talked... dkdkk is Dennis Komisky. He appears to have an unlimited budget, unfortunately. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 06:27:57 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:27:57 -0500 Subject: Straight-8 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/26/05, vrs wrote: > Anyone want to ship this thing across the USA for me :-)? Looks like a > beauty! > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5213265141&rd=1 Wow! Prettier than mine (mine have no table-top, and no tape drives, but they do have DF32s) -ethan From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Jun 27 06:35:08 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:35:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <200506231700.j5NH02aT088456@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506231700.j5NH02aT088456@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: > > Zane> At 9:19 AM -0400 6/23/05, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: > >> > Zane> As I understand it, the issue was with variable byte blocks. I > Zane> had zero issues installing RSTS/E, and I think a couple layered > Zane> products off of 4mm DAT. However, DECnet/E would not install > Zane> off of DAT. > >> You mean variable length blocks? If it doesn't support that, it > >> isn't a proper tape. Proper tapes handle any block size, odd or > >> even, from 14 up to at least 8k or so. > > Zane> Yes, that's what I mean. It is my understanding from when I > Zane> got some help figuring this out (I think by this list), that > Zane> was the problem. It wouldn't install from DAT, but had zero > Zane> issues with TK50. > > Ok. RSTS does assume/require that tapes are designed by competent > designers. I'm surprised you didn't run into similar issues with > other operating systems. He should have. RSX expects tape drive to be able to deliver variable size blocks as well. The distribution tapes hold 512 byte, 80 byte and 4144 byte size records. (As well as 0 byte file mark records.) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 27 07:34:38 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:34:38 -0500 Subject: Straight-8 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <200506262339.39204.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050627073038.055e7ab8@mail> At 06:16 AM 6/27/2005, Mike Loewen wrote: >>If dkdkk is Ed Sharp, he's already got 2 of them last we talked... > > dkdkk is Dennis Komisky. He appears to have an unlimited budget, unfortunately. This one? http://www.bluefiresecurity.com/aboutus_team.html This hobby's growing older - it's bound to attract more and more aging techies who yearn for the machines of their youth and who have the cash to spend on a few trinkets. What's the problem? They'd be welcome and enthusiastic list members, no? Like Paul Allen, they might get so crazy as to hire a few of you to restore and maintain their machines. As time goes by, collectors and museums will need dozens of people who can do this for them. - John From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Jun 27 08:29:36 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:29:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Straight-8 on eBay In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050627073038.055e7ab8@mail> References: <200506262339.39204.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6.2.1.2.2.20050627073038.055e7ab8@mail> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 06:16 AM 6/27/2005, Mike Loewen wrote: >>> If dkdkk is Ed Sharp, he's already got 2 of them last we talked... >> >> dkdkk is Dennis Komisky. He appears to have an unlimited budget, unfortunately. > > This one? > > http://www.bluefiresecurity.com/aboutus_team.html I don't think so. The info I have is that he's in New Hampshire. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From vrs at msn.com Mon Jun 27 08:43:18 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:43:18 -0700 Subject: Straight-8 on eBay References: <003c01c57acf$15a9ddc0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <1119868502.23297.3.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > Out of interest, what drives are those? Our 8 has a pair of Dectape > 55's, which have bronze-coloured faceplates rather than the black of the > Ebay system. Is Dectape 55 a different animal to TU55? I've never seen a Dectape 55, but those look like TU55 to me. Vince From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 27 09:00:46 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:00:46 -0400 Subject: Straight-8 on eBay References: <003c01c57acf$15a9ddc0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <1119868502.23297.3.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <17088.1678.188013.534381@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> On Sun, 2005-06-26 at 21:17 -0700, vrs wrote: >> Anyone want to ship this thing across the USA for me :-)? Looks >> like a beauty! Jules> :-) Jules> Out of interest, what drives are those? Our 8 has a pair of Jules> Dectape 55's, which have bronze-coloured faceplates rather Jules> than the black of the Ebay system. Is Dectape 55 a different Jules> animal to TU55? Curious. The black ones are the ones I know, with black "spider" hubs. Then again, the PDP-6 photo on http://simh.trailing-edge.com/photos/pdp6.jpg shows shiny metal hubs and a faceplate that doesn't seem to be black. So yours may be an older version. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 27 09:03:06 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:03:06 -0400 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? References: <200506221700.j5MH02SK071082@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <17088.1818.104777.424046@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Johnny" == Johnny Billquist writes: Johnny> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 Paul Koning Johnny> wrote: >> Ethernet is another good way; DECnet is available on Linux. Johnny> Unfortunately, the DECnet for Linux sucks so bad it isn't Johnny> usable. Well, it is kindof usable if you want to talk with a Johnny> VMS machine, but it don't work against RSX. I've tried Johnny> it... :-( So try it with RSTS... Johnny> Appearantly the DECnet/Linux guys only have had VMS machines Johnny> to test against, and I didn't manage to stir much interest Johnny> when I reported how badly it failed with RSX. I only got Johnny> responses like "well, that don't surprise us, since we've Johnny> only tested against VMS". Hard to blame someone for having it not work on a system they can't test. It's open source -- you can fix it, and contribute your fixes. That's what I did. Part of the problem is at the DEC end -- undocumented hacks in DAP (VMS is particularly bad there) and the totally undocumented pre-CTERM "set host" protocols. paul From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Jun 27 09:25:10 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:25:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <200506271405.j5RE5COA025826@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506271405.j5RE5COA025826@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Johnny" == Johnny Billquist writes: > > Johnny> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 Paul Koning > Johnny> wrote: > > >> Ethernet is another good way; DECnet is available on Linux. > > Johnny> Unfortunately, the DECnet for Linux sucks so bad it isn't > Johnny> usable. Well, it is kindof usable if you want to talk with a > Johnny> VMS machine, but it don't work against RSX. I've tried > Johnny> it... :-( > > So try it with RSTS... Don't have RSTS. :-) > Johnny> Appearantly the DECnet/Linux guys only have had VMS machines > Johnny> to test against, and I didn't manage to stir much interest > Johnny> when I reported how badly it failed with RSX. I only got > Johnny> responses like "well, that don't surprise us, since we've > Johnny> only tested against VMS". > > Hard to blame someone for having it not work on a system they can't > test. It's open source -- you can fix it, and contribute your fixes. > That's what I did. True, and definitely a point for you. I offered them access to systems to check it out, but no interest. Myself, I'm not interested in Linux enough for this. I'm doing the TCP/IP for RSX instead. > Part of the problem is at the DEC end -- undocumented hacks in DAP > (VMS is particularly bad there) and the totally undocumented pre-CTERM > "set host" protocols. I know... :-/ RSX actually have a different program for each DEC OS that exist, to use instead of the "normal" CTERM program. Unsupported, of course, but working much better... DAP basically failed in three of the four tests I did between Linux and RSX. File transfers in both directions, and directory listings in both directions. The one that did work was directory listings of the RSX system from Linux. I think I might have been able to transfer some trivial text files from RSX to Linux as well, but that was it. Everything else failed, or rather, just hung. On a separate issue, the public domain LAT is equally problematic, and should not be used to connect to RSX hosts. You'll crash the RSX host eventually. That LAT implementation seem to produce some packets that RSX just don't deal with, which results in buffer pool getting lost on the RSX end. It's definitely not a good behaviour in RSX as well, but never the less, it appears as if the PD LAT breaks the protocol in some way, and LAT is even worse, since no documentation exists outside of DEC (or whereever), so it's all reverse engineering (once more of VMS). Maybe one day... Or if I get my hands on the sources to RSX DECnet and LAT, I could do some cleanups in there... But that will not likely happen anytime soon I'm afraid... Ah, and there is also a bug in the DAP code in RSX. I have a patch for both RMSDAP.OLB and DAPRES. The problem is that the file protection word gets messed up when read. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Jun 27 09:38:32 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:38:32 -0500 Subject: Straight-8 on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050627093531.05022ea8@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 09:17 PM 6/26/2005 -0700, vrs wrote: >Anyone want to ship this thing across the USA for me :-)? Looks like a >beauty! > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5213265141&rd=1 > > Vince That is a truly beautiful machine! --tom From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 27 09:43:17 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:43:17 -0400 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? References: <200506271405.j5RE5COA025826@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <17088.4229.588287.577926@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Johnny" == Johnny Billquist writes: Johnny> True, and definitely a point for you. I offered them access Johnny> to systems to check it out, but no interest. I suppose that too makes sense -- if you don't know the OS, it's hard to get started on debugging communication to it. Johnny> On a separate issue, the public domain LAT is equally Johnny> problematic, and should not be used to connect to RSX Johnny> hosts. You'll crash the RSX host eventually. That LAT Johnny> implementation seem to produce some packets that RSX just Johnny> don't deal with, which results in buffer pool getting lost on Johnny> the RSX end. It's definitely not a good behaviour in RSX as Johnny> well, but never the less, it appears as if the PD LAT breaks Johnny> the protocol in some way, and LAT is even worse, since no Johnny> documentation exists outside of DEC (or whereever), so it's Johnny> all reverse engineering (once more of VMS). That's clearly a P1 RSX bug. There's a simple rule: if your system crashes because of a packet it received, that is ALWAYS the fault of the receiving system. Perhaps the sender should not have sent it, but "you shouldn't have sent that" is NEVER an acceptable excuse for crashing. paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 27 10:02:14 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:02:14 +0000 Subject: Straight-8 on eBay In-Reply-To: <17088.1678.188013.534381@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <003c01c57acf$15a9ddc0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <1119868502.23297.3.camel@weka.localdomain> <17088.1678.188013.534381@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1119884534.23297.59.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 10:00 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > Jules> Out of interest, what drives are those? Our 8 has a pair of > Jules> Dectape 55's, which have bronze-coloured faceplates rather > Jules> than the black of the Ebay system. Is Dectape 55 a different > Jules> animal to TU55? > > Curious. The black ones are the ones I know, with black "spider" > hubs. Then again, the PDP-6 photo on > http://simh.trailing-edge.com/photos/pdp6.jpg shows shiny metal hubs > and a faceplate that doesn't seem to be black. So yours may be an > older version. Hmm, I've only got one photo of our 8 here on this machine, however... Machine (panels are currently laying behind it, they're not missing!): http://www.patooie.com/temp/pdp8small.jpg Closer view of the drives: http://www.patooie.com/temp/dectapes.jpg I don't know this machine's history, although I can ask. I did wonder if the bronze panels were just the same as this EBay 8 and had been stripped back to metal for some reason (i.e. they were once painted black), but (without the machine in front of me to check) it looks like the lettering's added direct to the panel - plus of course it carries the DECtape55 nameplate which the TU55s of the EBay machine don't have. I thought it was going to be a stupid question with a really easy answer (I'm a DEC novice!) but maybe not! :-) cheers Jules From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jun 27 10:13:51 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:13:51 -0500 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: References: <200506222036.j5MKaGFd074878@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42C017AF.4010505@mdrconsult.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > Huh? You had problems getting a CD to work? I just plugged one in, and in > RSX I suddenly had a DU device of the type RRD40. I think it depends on the SCSI adapter. I have 2 RQDX1 adapters, and they are incredibly temperamental. I haven't gotten either one to work with a CD-ROM. They want DEC drives, although I've gotten non-DEC 4GB Seagates to work, and a TZ30. A TLZ06 or a TLZ07 will load RT-11 or BSD, but not RSX or the RSTS/E images that are available on the 'net. Doc From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jun 27 10:19:08 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:19:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Straight-8 on eBay In-Reply-To: <17088.1678.188013.534381@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <003c01c57acf$15a9ddc0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <1119868502.23297.3.camel@weka.localdomain> <17088.1678.188013.534381@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17322.135.196.233.27.1119885548.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> PaulK: > Curious. The black ones are the ones I know, with black "spider" > hubs. Then again, the PDP-6 photo on > http://simh.trailing-edge.com/photos/pdp6.jpg shows shiny metal hubs > and a faceplate that doesn't seem to be black. So yours may be an > older version. Here's Bletchley's 8: http://www.wowrarelook.co.uk/pdp8.jpg http://www.wowrarelook.co.uk/pdp82.jpg http://www.wowrarelook.co.uk/pdp83.jpg (~250k JPG) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Jun 27 10:27:15 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:27:15 -0500 Subject: Straight-8 on eBay In-Reply-To: <1119884534.23297.59.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <17088.1678.188013.534381@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <003c01c57acf$15a9ddc0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <1119868502.23297.3.camel@weka.localdomain> <17088.1678.188013.534381@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050627102607.05154e88@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 03:02 PM 6/27/2005 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: >On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 10:00 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > > Jules> Out of interest, what drives are those? Our 8 has a pair of > > Jules> Dectape 55's, which have bronze-coloured faceplates rather > > Jules> than the black of the Ebay system. Is Dectape 55 a different > > Jules> animal to TU55? > > > > Curious. The black ones are the ones I know, with black "spider" > > hubs. Then again, the PDP-6 photo on > > http://simh.trailing-edge.com/photos/pdp6.jpg shows shiny metal hubs > > and a faceplate that doesn't seem to be black. So yours may be an > > older version. > >Hmm, I've only got one photo of our 8 here on this machine, however... > >Machine (panels are currently laying behind it, they're not missing!): > http://www.patooie.com/temp/pdp8small.jpg > >Closer view of the drives: > http://www.patooie.com/temp/dectapes.jpg > > >I don't know this machine's history, although I can ask. I did wonder if >the bronze panels were just the same as this EBay 8 and had been >stripped back to metal for some reason (i.e. they were once painted >black), but (without the machine in front of me to check) it looks like >the lettering's added direct to the panel - plus of course it carries >the DECtape55 nameplate which the TU55s of the EBay machine don't have. > >I thought it was going to be a stupid question with a really easy answer >(I'm a DEC novice!) but maybe not! :-) > >cheers > >Jules That's a nice looking machine as well! Is the controller in the lower left (with the blinkenlights control panel) for the TU55s? Does that machine have an RF32 as well? --tom From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 27 10:38:08 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:38:08 -0400 Subject: Straight-8 on eBay References: <003c01c57acf$15a9ddc0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <1119868502.23297.3.camel@weka.localdomain> <17088.1678.188013.534381@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17322.135.196.233.27.1119885548.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <17088.7520.424471.660512@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "witchy" == witchy writes: witchy> PaulK: >> Curious. The black ones are the ones I know, with black "spider" >> hubs. Then again, the PDP-6 photo on >> http://simh.trailing-edge.com/photos/pdp6.jpg shows shiny metal >> hubs and a faceplate that doesn't seem to be black. So yours may >> be an older version. witchy> Here's Bletchley's 8: witchy> http://www.wowrarelook.co.uk/pdp8.jpg Nice pictures. I hope there isn't anything important on those RK05 packs stacked 20 high in the background! paul From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jun 27 11:27:19 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:27:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Straight-8 on eBay In-Reply-To: <17088.7520.424471.660512@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <003c01c57acf$15a9ddc0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <1119868502.23297.3.camel@weka.localdomain> <17088.1678.188013.534381@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17322.135.196.233.27.1119885548.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <17088.7520.424471.660512@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <18088.135.196.233.27.1119889639.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > witchy> http://www.wowrarelook.co.uk/pdp8.jpg > > Nice pictures. Thanks. One of these days I'll sort out some of the others, particularly now that the museum has been shoehorned into a much smaller area of the park leaving the big iron with the possibility of a nasty move in the very near future. We might be asking for volunteers :) > I hope there isn't anything important on those RK05 packs stacked 20 > high in the background! I don't think so, Jules will know otherwise. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Jun 27 12:26:11 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:26:11 -0700 Subject: Need help with 16500A floppys Message-ID: <42C036B3.9EACC461@msm.umr.edu> I have an HP 16500A analyzer with original 720k disks. Problem is that only the rear drive seems to read the disks. I am suspicious that the front drive is bad. I am using stock 720k (single hole for write protect only) and trying to format them in both front and rear. I also am not able to read the stock originals with any program under either linux or dos. I realize that these seem to be formatted in a proprietary HP format. I luckily downloaded all the kits from the Agilent site before they were thoughtfully erased by Agilent. However these programs have not produced anything but floppy images which I cannot get onto a disk either. I should also explain that I am trying to use the 1.44 disks on my PC to do the format of the 720k disks. All I can seem to do is get formatted dos disks, but the HP write program fails. Also all attempts as mentioned to get data off HP disks onto a linux box or windows box have failed. I know that under dos there is a format byte in the first sector that confuzes the bios and windows systems if it is not properly set. I tried the read mode of "rawrite" that i had anyway just as a desperation move. I also tryed a forced format "dd" input from the 720k device on linux. This last should bypass any media format bytes, and set the floppy path to just that format. Still no joy. My current thought is to dredge my stock of junk for a 720 K drive and try it on a dos or linux box. the main problem that I can think of between making new disks on the pc and reading them on the analyzer is the possiblity of formatting problems due to the head width. I pretty much am convinced the front floppy on the thing is bad, so I need one of those. I don't know if it is common, or a weird one specialized to HP yet or not. I also have not been able to clean it, as I need to buy a fresh supply of alcohol (isopropyl) to clean with. thanks jim From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 27 13:24:42 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Programming 2708's Message-ID: <200506271824.LAA18279@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Richard I have both a Byte Saver and a data I/O. If you'll send me the EPROMs and the data, I can program them for you. As was mentioned, It wouldn't take much to make an adapter out of two machine pin sockets that could take 2716's to use in place of a 2708. Most of the pins are the same. Just make sure to pull the pins that provide the extra nasty voltages. Dwight >From: "Richard A. Cini" > >All: > > OK, I'm ready to burn a modified copy of the Altair Turnkey Monitor >into a 2708 to use in my 8800b as a test program. Lo and behold, my >programmer won't do a 2708 -- it'll only go down to 2716. Naturally I don't >have any 2716s around and the VG ROM board accepts only the 2704 or 2708 >(without modification). > > So I browsed around eBay and elsewhere to see if any other >programmers support the 2708 and it seems that none do. They all start at >the 2716. > > What programmer can I look for that has the ability to program a >2708? > > Thanks. > >Rich > >Rich Cini >Collector of classic computers >Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project >Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >/************************************************************/ > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 27 13:27:46 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Programming 2708's Message-ID: <200506271827.LAA18283@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Bruce Lane" > > Out of curiousity, I checked the support list for my UniSite system. Sure enough, it supports the 2708's. However, it won't do 2704's. > Hi I'm not sure why this is an issue, you just need to shorten the programming loop. The signal levels are the same for the 2704's as the 2708's during programming. 2704's are hard to find anyway. Dwight From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Jun 27 13:31:15 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:31:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <200506271700.j5RH03il027476@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506271700.j5RH03il027476@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Johnny" == Johnny Billquist writes: > > Johnny> True, and definitely a point for you. I offered them access > Johnny> to systems to check it out, but no interest. > > I suppose that too makes sense -- if you don't know the OS, it's hard > to get started on debugging communication to it. No, I don't think that makes sense. If they knew enough VMS to test against that, then RSX shouldn't be a problem. The syntax for fooling around in DCL is the same. > Johnny> On a separate issue, the public domain LAT is equally > Johnny> problematic, and should not be used to connect to RSX > Johnny> hosts. You'll crash the RSX host eventually. That LAT > Johnny> implementation seem to produce some packets that RSX just > Johnny> don't deal with, which results in buffer pool getting lost on > Johnny> the RSX end. It's definitely not a good behaviour in RSX as > Johnny> well, but never the less, it appears as if the PD LAT breaks > Johnny> the protocol in some way, and LAT is even worse, since no > Johnny> documentation exists outside of DEC (or whereever), so it's > Johnny> all reverse engineering (once more of VMS). > > That's clearly a P1 RSX bug. There's a simple rule: if your system > crashes because of a packet it received, that is ALWAYS the fault of > the receiving system. Perhaps the sender should not have sent it, but > "you shouldn't have sent that" is NEVER an acceptable excuse for > crashing. I totally agree. But that don't help much right now, since the LAT code in RSX isn't available to us. So for now, the only options is not to use the public domain LAT implementation against RSX. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Jun 27 13:34:35 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:34:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <200506271700.j5RH03il027476@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200506271700.j5RH03il027476@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 Doc Shipley wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > Huh? You had problems getting a CD to work? I just plugged one in, and in > > RSX I suddenly had a DU device of the type RRD40. > > I think it depends on the SCSI adapter. > > I have 2 RQDX1 adapters, and they are incredibly temperamental. I > haven't gotten either one to work with a CD-ROM. They want DEC drives, > although I've gotten non-DEC 4GB Seagates to work, and a TZ30. A TLZ06 > or a TLZ07 will load RT-11 or BSD, but not RSX or the RSTS/E images that > are available on the 'net. Since when is a RQDX1 a SCSI adapter? :-) I guess you actually mean the RQZX1. I haven't tried that one. I have CMD adapters myself, and they really are excellent. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Mon Jun 27 13:45:01 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:45:01 -0400 Subject: Programming 2708's Message-ID: Dwight: Actually what I'm going to do is build a few adapters for different 24-pin densities such as the 2716, 2732 and the 2532. I have a few tubes of 2532s so I'm going to try those by mounting a socket on a DIP header and making the wiring changes between the two layers. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 2:25 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Programming 2708's Hi Richard I have both a Byte Saver and a data I/O. If you'll send me the EPROMs and the data, I can program them for you. As was mentioned, It wouldn't take much to make an adapter out of two machine pin sockets that could take 2716's to use in place of a 2708. Most of the pins are the same. Just make sure to pull the pins that provide the extra nasty voltages. Dwight >From: "Richard A. Cini" > >All: > > OK, I'm ready to burn a modified copy of the Altair Turnkey Monitor >into a 2708 to use in my 8800b as a test program. Lo and behold, my >programmer won't do a 2708 -- it'll only go down to 2716. Naturally I don't >have any 2716s around and the VG ROM board accepts only the 2704 or 2708 >(without modification). > > So I browsed around eBay and elsewhere to see if any other >programmers support the 2708 and it seems that none do. They all start at >the 2716. > > What programmer can I look for that has the ability to program a >2708? > > Thanks. > >Rich > >Rich Cini >Collector of classic computers >Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project >Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >/************************************************************/ > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 27 13:48:29 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <42C017AF.4010505@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Jun 27, 2005 10:13:51 AM Message-ID: <200506271848.j5RImTh7011687@onyx.spiritone.com> > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > Huh? You had problems getting a CD to work? I just plugged one in, and in > > RSX I suddenly had a DU device of the type RRD40. > > I think it depends on the SCSI adapter. > > I have 2 RQDX1 adapters, and they are incredibly temperamental. I > haven't gotten either one to work with a CD-ROM. They want DEC drives, > although I've gotten non-DEC 4GB Seagates to work, and a TZ30. A TLZ06 > or a TLZ07 will load RT-11 or BSD, but not RSX or the RSTS/E images that > are available on the 'net. > > Doc It isn't simply dependant on the SCSI adapter, but also on the version of the firmware that the adapter is running. I'm familiar with the Viking (and rebadged Viking) SCSI boards. If you're running older firmware you won't get a CD-ROM working, with the latest some will. I've gotten the 2x DEC CD-ROM drive (I can't remember is that the RRD-42?) working, and I've had good luck with Plextor drives. For the hard drives, I think I've actually had better luck with non-DEC drives. I've standardized on 2GB Seagate Barracuda's, but also have a large supply of 100MB and 200MB drives that were originally in some sort of IBM PC. My goal is to get to the point where I only use CD's for installing software, but I doubt that's practical for layered products. Zane From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 27 13:54:43 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:54:43 +0000 Subject: RML380Z ROM images Message-ID: <1119898483.23279.90.camel@weka.localdomain> Does anyone happen to have ROM dumps of from the RML 380Z CPU board? All three 2716's on the board in front of me seem to have gone blank. (I've verified that the 2716 chargen ROM from the video board reads OK, so it's not my programmer failing to read properly!) The three ROMs in question are labelled "4.0B" (M0, M1 and M2). My 380Z fileserver won't have the same ROMs in it, and my own 380Z 'desktop' only has a pair of ROMs in it labelled "3.4E". ps. are 2716's known for failure in this way? cheers Jules From tomj at wps.com Mon Jun 27 14:30:25 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <17088.1818.104777.424046@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200506221700.j5MH02SK071082@dewey.classiccmp.org> <17088.1818.104777.424046@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050627122820.C1025@localhost> > >> Ethernet is another good way; DECnet is available on Linux. > > > Unfortunately, the DECnet for Linux sucks so bad it isn't > > usable. ... Why the emphasis on FAST? I thought this was a one-time project? The whole job could have been completed using a serial link at 1200 baud in less time than it took to search for a faster solution. From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Jun 27 14:38:55 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:38:55 -0400 Subject: CS/80 disc geometry In-Reply-To: <42BB7A1B.1090303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200506271938.j5RJcu9f024838@mail.bcpl.net> On 23 Jun 2005 at 20:12, Al Kossow wrote: > a piece that is still missing is what commands are supported in the > SS/80 subset protocol used in drives like the 9153C and 9354A/B The SS/80 command set is enumerated in detail in chapter 4 of "Subset 80 for Fixed and Flexible Disc Drives (HP-IB Implementation)." This is the Subset 80 reference manual from HP Greeley -- HP 5958-4129, November 1985. -- Dave From drb at msu.edu Mon Jun 27 16:31:54 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:31:54 -0400 Subject: HP/Compaq/DEC technical papers Message-ID: <200506272131.j5RLVs1x026216@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Has anyone archived this? http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/Compaq-DEC/ De From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Jun 27 17:30:09 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:30:09 +0100 Subject: Straight-8 on eBay In-Reply-To: <17322.135.196.233.27.1119885548.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <003c01c57acf$15a9ddc0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <1119868502.23297.3.camel@weka.localdomain> <17088.1678.188013.534381@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17322.135.196.233.27.1119885548.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <42C07DF1.1010207@gjcp.net> Witchy wrote: > PaulK: > > >>Curious. The black ones are the ones I know, with black "spider" >>hubs. Then again, the PDP-6 photo on >>http://simh.trailing-edge.com/photos/pdp6.jpg shows shiny metal hubs >>and a faceplate that doesn't seem to be black. So yours may be an >>older version. > > > Here's Bletchley's 8: > > http://www.wowrarelook.co.uk/pdp8.jpg > http://www.wowrarelook.co.uk/pdp82.jpg > http://www.wowrarelook.co.uk/pdp83.jpg > > (~250k JPG) In the last photo, the faceplate looks like sun-faded anodised aluminium. Gordon. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 27 17:09:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:09:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need help with 16500A floppys In-Reply-To: <42C036B3.9EACC461@msm.umr.edu> from "jim stephens" at Jun 27, 5 10:26:11 am Message-ID: > > I have an HP 16500A analyzer with original 720k disks. > > Problem is that only the rear drive seems to read the disks. Does thls machine use the full-height Sony double-head drive that HP used all over the place? If so, have you re-greased the eject mechanism? If not, do so before you ruin the heads -- that's quite possibly what's happened to one of your drives already :-(. I have done a head replacement on said Sony drives, it's possible, but not totally trivial (and nor is getting the replacement head carriage). > > I am suspicious that the front drive is bad. I am using > stock 720k (single hole for write protect only) and trying > to format them in both front and rear. > > I also am not able to read the stock originals with any > program under either linux or dos. I realize that these > seem to be formatted in a proprietary HP format. Are these similar to HP LIF disks, as used on the HP9114, etc)? Have you tried the LIF Utilities for Linux on the HPCC site, or the LIF Utilities for MS-DOS avaiable somewhere else? > > I luckily downloaded all the kits from the Agilent site before > they were thoughtfully erased by Agilent. However these > programs have not produced anything but floppy images > which I cannot get onto a disk either. > > I should also explain that I am trying to use the 1.44 disks Do you mean disks or drives here? Don't try to use 1.44M media, it won't work (the density-select hole is in just the right place so that the disk-inserted sensor is not activated. It may work better if you cover this hole, but I still don't recomend it). You should have no problem with a PC 1.44M drive, though. I've never figured out the details of the HP format, in particular the bad-track stuff in the last cylinder. My method has always been to format good-quality disks in an HP drive (thus ensuring there is no bad block replacement) and to then just bother with the first 77 cylinders. > I pretty much am convinced the front floppy on the thing is > bad, so I need one of those. I don't know if it is common, or > a weird one specialized to HP yet or not. I also have not been If it is the SOny I would guess it is, then it's a 600 rpm drive. The interface pinout is non-standard too, but the double speed (and thus double data rate) is the main problem with using other drives. These drives can often be repaired (I've got home-made schematics for several versions, I've done mechanical repairs too). If you pull the drive, post the numbers off the nameplate and the number on the main PCB (it'll be something like FC-9), and I cna see what I can do. > able to clean it, as I need to buy a fresh supply of alcohol (isopropyl) > > to clean with. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 27 16:49:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:49:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Programming 2708's In-Reply-To: <000601c57abc$482e95a0$15f6fc04@Randy2> from "Randy McLaughlin" at Jun 26, 5 09:01:21 pm Message-ID: > Intel changed the specifications of the 2708 a couple of times, later docs > state it does not require programming from address 0. But did they also change the design of the chip, I wonder. Later 2708s may be more forgiving as to the programming algorithm they'll accept. Since Intel were so definite about having to go through all locations in order n times in the data sheet I have, I would certainly want to do it that way. Other methods might well damage the chip or lead to poor data retention. > > I have changed individual bits (only from a high to low, to go from low to > high the entire chip must be erased). You can change individual bits, sure. The data sheet tells you how to do that. You have to go through _all_ the locations. If a locations is to be unchanged, you program it again with its current contents (a special case of this is that if you want to leave a location totally unprogrammed after erasing the chip, you re-write it with 0xFF). > > The later docs still state sequential writing but no longer require starting > at 0 but I have written non sequentially and can swear by that. I wrote a > program that verified before writing to speed up programming, this skipped Oh, it probably worked. But I wouldn't recomend doing it. 2708s are getting harder to find, so I'd not want to risk damaging one. And I certainly don't want to have to trace a fault caused by an unreliable bit in an EPROM. I would follow the manfacturer's instructions... It reminds me af a friend who programmed 27128s with a single 1ms pulse per location. It seemed to work. They verified OK. And then a bit later on he got data-rot.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 27 17:16:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:16:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: RML380Z ROM images In-Reply-To: <1119898483.23279.90.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 27, 5 06:54:43 pm Message-ID: > > > Does anyone happen to have ROM dumps of from the RML 380Z CPU board? I cna;'t help you, alas. IIRC, some RMLs used the TI 3-rail 2716s that most programmers can't handle. I assume you've checked for this... I've just checcked my 'Information File'. The CPU board schematic says '2708 or TMS2716' for the EPROMs. In other words 3-rail (+5V, +12V, -5V). There is no EPROM on the 40 col VDU, the 40/80 col one shows a 2516/2732. That's a signle-rail type (TI were the odd-one-out here, their 2716 was a 3-rail part, their 2516 was a signle-rail one like everyone else's 2716). I wonder if that's the problem you're having... > > All three 2716's on the board in front of me seem to have gone blank. > (I've verified that the 2716 chargen ROM from the video board reads OK, > so it's not my programmer failing to read properly!) > > The three ROMs in question are labelled "4.0B" (M0, M1 and M2). > > My 380Z fileserver won't have the same ROMs in it, and my own 380Z > 'desktop' only has a pair of ROMs in it labelled "3.4E". I am pretty sure that my 380Z has COS 3.4 (and I assume that's what the label is referring to -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 27 17:18:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:18:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: <20050627122820.C1025@localhost> from "Tom Jennings" at Jun 27, 5 12:30:25 pm Message-ID: > Why the emphasis on FAST? I thought this was a one-time project? > The whole job could have been completed using a serial link at > 1200 baud in less time than it took to search for a faster > solution. SOmewhat relaated... 'A hacker is a person who will spend 2 hours to find an automated way of sdoing something, when it would take 5 minutes to do it by hand, and when he only has to do it a dozen times' :-) -tony From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jun 27 18:54:50 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:54:50 -0500 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: References: <200506271700.j5RH03il027476@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42C091CA.2070206@mdrconsult.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 Doc Shipley wrote: 2 RQDX1 adapters, and they are incredibly temperamental. I >>haven't gotten either one to work with a CD-ROM. They want DEC drives, >>although I've gotten non-DEC 4GB Seagates to work, and a TZ30. A TLZ06 >>or a TLZ07 will load RT-11 or BSD, but not RSX or the RSTS/E images that >>are available on the 'net. > > > Since when is a RQDX1 a SCSI adapter? :-) > I guess you actually mean the RQZX1. Oy. Yes, thank you, I should not post pre-coffee. Although I've never gotten a CD-ROM to work on an RQDX1, either. ;) > I haven't tried that one. I have CMD adapters myself, and they really are > excellent. As soon as I'm rich, I'll be trying a couple myself. Doc From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 27 19:48:07 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:48:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Programming 2708's Message-ID: <20050628004807.11663.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Sure you're not looking at the specs for a 2716? Tony's > information is correct for a 3-rail 2708 according to my > Intel, Motorola, Texas data books. Yup, I'm reading from the Softy notes. I do have a datasheet for a 2708 but that only says "it is customary to begin with the '0' address" and that there are two programming voltages, +12v on the PE pin and +25v pulse on the program pin. With that part, identified only as N2708 on the sheet, the pulse is 1.0ms minimum and the total time per location is a minimum of 100ms. Also of note is that the address setup in program mode is 1us minimum and the time between exiting program mode and the first valid read is 10us minimum. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 27 19:59:08 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:59:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Programming 2708's Message-ID: <20050628005908.72832.qmail@web25006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > the Intel data book makes it very clear you do have to program > all locations. > The unchanged ones have to be reprogrammed with their existing > contents, you can't skip over them. Not true on both counts, you only need to go through the program cycle for bytes that need to be programmed and if you want to leave a byte unchanged but still go through the program cycle then you set the data to $FF as bits can't be programmed high. What the data sheets say often did differ from the practice, even on official programmers. I used to use 2708s in CB to 11m conversions and got away without the -5v supply by using a lamp to illuminate the chip and generate the -ve bias photoelectrically, this only worked with one brand of EPROM though. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 27 20:06:44 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:06:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: RML380Z ROM images Message-ID: <20050628010644.45141.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > ps. are 2716's known for failure in this way? Yes, especially if they've been flash photographed. (Ididot photographer killed three of eight EPROMs on a control system card after being told not to use the flash in the equipment room.) Some EPROMS that fail can be reprogrammed, some fail permanently often in blocks. If it was a school machine, or anywhere where it was mostly on, then problems will begin to show after 10 years or so. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 27 20:05:46 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Why the emphasis on FAST? I thought this was a one-time project? > > The whole job could have been completed using a serial link at > > 1200 baud in less time than it took to search for a faster > > solution. > > SOmewhat relaated... > > 'A hacker is a person who will spend 2 hours to find an automated way of > sdoing something, when it would take 5 minutes to do it by hand, and when > he only has to do it a dozen times' :-) That sounds like me, unfortunately. Sometimes I just have to smack myself to get out of that mindset and get the fricken job done. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Jun 27 21:02:08 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:02:08 -0500 Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <200506240021.00381.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200506221641.JAA15030@clulw009.amd.com> <200506240021.00381.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050627210208.4cde35b8.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:21:00 -0500 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Dwight K. Elvey declared on Wednesday 22 June 2005 11:41 am: > > >From: "Jeff Davis" > > > > > >To pre-answer one question: no, I didn't get any operator keys for > > > the boxes. Are they difficult / expensive to find? If so, I'll go > > > back on thursday and dig thru the storage bins I found the > > > machines in and look for a key... > > > > > >Jeff > > > > Hi > > Take the lock to a locksmith. You might be surprised. > > I've not seen the one used on your unit but the local > > fellow here does them for $15 first key. > > Locksmiths will NOT carry Medco (or medco-compatible) key blanks, > unless they're doing something unethical. Medco is a high security > lock manufacturer that doesn't sell blanks for their locks to 'just > any locksmith'. > True, but a locksmith could help by removing all the pins from the cylinder, so that any key, or a screwdriver, or what-not, could switch the modes on the system. My RS/6000 box has a lock that was 'sprung' in such a fashion, by the previous owner. From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Tue Jun 28 01:24:08 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:24:08 +0100 Subject: RML380Z ROM images In-Reply-To: <20050628010644.45141.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050628010644.45141.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1119939848.32675.10.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 02:06 +0100, lee davison wrote: > > ps. are 2716's known for failure in this way? > > Yes, especially if they've been flash photographed. > (Ididot photographer killed three of eight EPROMs > on a control system card after being told not to > use the flash in the equipment room.) We had something like this on a building security system, c. 1986, in what was destined to be the Auckland Stock Exchange. We'd just finished installing it on behalf of the manufacturers/suppliers, and they were so pleased with it that they decided to take some photos of the various cabinets. On the first flash the whole system crashed, stopping anyone from getting through doors or pressing lift (elevator) buttons. It wasn't actually controlling the lifts themselves, that was probably still good chunky flash-resistant relays. The system recovered after a power cycle. They decided it would be a good idea to cover the EPROMs with the nice metallised stickers, rather than coloured paper ones. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Jun 28 01:42:24 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:42:24 +0100 Subject: RML380Z ROM images In-Reply-To: <20050628010644.45141.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050628010644.45141.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42C0F150.9040303@gjcp.net> lee davison wrote: >>ps. are 2716's known for failure in this way? > > > Yes, especially if they've been flash photographed. > (Ididot photographer killed three of eight EPROMs > on a control system card after being told not to > use the flash in the equipment room.) On that note, are UV LEDs powerful enough to erase EPROMs? I'm thinking about building an eraser, and want to try an alternative to the rather expensive and fragile UV tube. Gordon. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jun 28 02:18:09 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:18:09 +0100 Subject: RML380Z ROM images In-Reply-To: <42C0F150.9040303@gjcp.net> References: <20050628010644.45141.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <42C0F150.9040303@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <69f3fa814d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <42C0F150.9040303 at gjcp.net> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On that note, are UV LEDs powerful enough to erase EPROMs? I'm thinking > about building an eraser, and want to try an alternative to the rather > expensive and fragile UV tube. I doubt it. IIRC the wavelength is wrong - you need 253.7nm ("germicidal ultraviolet") to erase EPROMs. You might be able to get a UV LED to do it, but it'll take a long while to erase. Magenta sell an EPROM eraser kit - that might be worth a try. At last check it was about ?30. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... I would if I could but I can't but I might if I find I can later. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 28 02:16:33 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:16:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Programming 2708's In-Reply-To: lee davison "Programming 2708's" (Jun 28, 1:48) References: <20050628004807.11663.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10506280816.ZM11688@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 28 2005, 1:48, lee davison wrote: > > Sure you're not looking at the specs for a 2716? Tony's > > information is correct for a 3-rail 2708 according to my > > Intel, Motorola, Texas data books. > > Yup, I'm reading from the Softy notes. I do have a datasheet > for a 2708 but that only says "it is customary to begin with > the '0' address" and that there are two programming voltages, > +12v on the PE pin and +25v pulse on the program pin. With > that part, identified only as N2708 on the sheet, the pulse > is 1.0ms minimum and the total time per location is a minimum > of 100ms. The standard programming voltage is 26V for 2708s and 3-rail 2716s (like the Texas ones). It's 25V for single-rail 2716s. N2708 is a Signetics part. Somewhat later than the Intel and others. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 28 05:51:43 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:51:43 -0400 Subject: How to transfer data FAST? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C12BBF.nailBR1110CDU@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > 'A hacker is a person who will spend 2 hours to find...' An old cookie: I'd rather write programs that write programs than write programs. Tim. From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jun 28 04:27:30 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:27:30 +0200 Subject: Emulex SC02/C SMD Qbus controller Message-ID: <42C11802.906@hachti.de> Hello folks, who has experience with the Emulex SC02/C controller? I tried the hardware format sequence - but it didn't work as expected. Perhaps my controller has a problem. Perhaps there is something set up wrong. And hardware formatting my disk packs is the way I hope to get these packs usable. In my documentation to the controller there's mentioned a diagnostic software - which I don't have. Does anybody have that? Best wishes, Philipp :-) From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Tue Jun 28 07:49:15 2005 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:49:15 -0400 Subject: Washington Post article on Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <42C11802.906@hachti.de> References: <42C11802.906@hachti.de> Message-ID: <42C1474B.8060608@verizon.net> Just skimmed an article on classic computers in the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/27/AR2005062701770.html?sub=AR Mentioned were Sellam Ismail and Michael Nadeau. Heck let me quote the thing and make sure I attribute it properly: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Geek Chic: Old Computers As Collectibles Yesterday's State of the Art Is Now Regarded as 'Artwork' By Jose Antonio Vargas Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, June 28, 2005; C01 The year was 1986 and Bud Ballos was an eighth-grader, a proud owner of a brand-new computer with what was to him "a weird thing" called a mouse. Remember the Apple II? It was a fixture -- in the library, next to the card-catalogue filing cabinet -- in many a middle school beginning in the 1980s. "This was the start of the new computer, and at the time, I didn't really know what it was," Ballos says of his very first desktop, its screen no bigger than 7 inches by 5 inches, its color off-white, the kind of plastic that starts to yellow after a while. In the early years, not too many families actually had a computer at home. "I thought it was cool. My friends thought it was cool. We'd look at it and go, 'Wow, all right.' " Ballos is 33 now and goes by Thomas rather than Bud. He's a novice collector and a random one at that: coins from the United States and Canada, belt plates from the Civil War, Native American spearheads and arrowheads, some of them 1,300 to 3,000 years old. They're all kept in the garage of his Ashburn home, where the showpiece -- "I did my homework on it; I played Donkey Kong on it; I brought it with me to college," he explains -- is his Apple IIc. You'd think Ballos would have trashed or recycled his childhood Apple, but these days people are holding on to their first (and second, and third) desktops and laptops. Some keep them for nostalgia's sake, others for the kitsch value. Whatever the motivation, the urge to hang on has turned yesteryear's outmoded computers into today's historic artifacts -- giving them a growing value in the ever-so-hungry collectibles market. From an early 1975 Altair 8800, named after a planet in a "Star Trek" episode, to a 1981 IBM Personal Computer that a young Bill Gates helped develop, what's on the collectibles menu covers a broadening taste. Some of these computers are rare. Some are actually quite common and may be sitting in people's basements right now. Pepe Tozzo, author of the upcoming book "Retro Electro: Collecting Technology From Atari to Walkman," puts the price of the Altair, depending on its condition, between $930 and $2,785. But that's chump change compared with the $72,000 that Lot 238 -- the eight-page typed "Outline of Plans for Development of Electronic Computers," written in 1946 and regarded as the "founding document of the computer industry" -- brought at Christie's in New York in February. Ten years ago, the mantra was that old computers were worthless -- smushed, forgotten, unbought in roadside yard sales. Today, the chances of scoring undiscovered gems at Sunday flea markets, or thrift shops on Nowhere Boulevard, or computer recycling centers on Faraway Street, are still pretty good, but even casual collectors spend a great deal of time shopping and researching online. There's Classic Tech ( http://www.classictechpub.com/ ) and the Obsolete Technology Website ( http://www.oldcomputers.net/ ), to name just two sites, and of course there's eBay, where on any given day dozens of vintage IBMs, Ataris, Amigas, Apples, Commodores, you name it, are up for bidding. On a recent Wednesday, with 4 days 7 hours left on a listing, the top bid for an IMSAI 8080 microcomputer circa 1977 -- Matthew Broderick, in the 1983 film "War Games," almost started global thermonuclear war with one -- is $1,025. "I built it from kit and used for several years," writes the eBay seller. The bid started at $450. Tony Romando, editor in chief of Sync, the men's magazine for the gadget-obsessed, says there's a one-word reason why people collect old hard- and software: cool. "Who keeps an Apple II laying around? The hipster who owns a Treo cell and a PowerBook G4 and an iPod but last month went out and bought a rotary phone for his living room and sometimes walks around with a Walkman for street cred," says Romando. He keeps his circa-1999 iBook -- the one that looks like a toilet seat -- in the basement, next to one of those tiki lamps that repel mosquitoes. "Nobody's buying these old computers for the technology. They're buying it for style. For a lot of people it's artwork." Sync runs a column in which a resident expert prices readers' electronic treasures. To Ritesh Dulal of Lexington, Ky., who wrote in asking about "a box full of Bell & Howell Apple II dinosaurs," Sync suggested that instead of cashing in for an estimated $300 ("with appropriate manuals"), he should hang on: "You never know when that Mac-crazed hottie from work is going to drop by for drinks. You'll score with this super-hip antique on your desk." Apart from the hipness factor, Michael Nadeau, author of "Collectible Microcomputers," a field guide of sorts for collectors, says holding on to a vintage computer is about taking a stroll down memory chip lane. "If you grew up in the late '70s, for example, and you used this computer, the computer meant something to you," says Nadeau, who founded the Classic Tech site. He has a soft spot for Radio Shack TRS-80s, affectionately known as Trash 80s. "I think cars make for a good analogy: If you grew up in the '70s, the Corvettes, the Mustangs, the Camaros meant something to you. Maybe you didn't own one of those cars, but you wish you had." For uber-collector Sellam Ismail, storing his more than 2,000 computers locked in a 4,500-square-foot warehouse in Livermore, Calif., is akin to storing history. If the warehouse weren't so messy, he says, he'd fit more. He owns Commodore 64s, one of the most popular computers of the 1980s; every member of the Apple II family; and a PDP-8, a rare creation from the now-defunct manufacturing giant Digital Equipment Corp. "It's worth at least $20,000," he says of his PDP-8, considered by many to be the first "minicomputer" -- meaning it didn't fill an entire small room -- of the 1960s. "Everything is happening so fast -- computers that are only 20 years old are completely outmoded, and even today computers that are only five years old are considered outdated, " says Ismail, a self-described "computer archivist" who seems to keep every detail of every computer ever built in memory, and that's not an exaggeration. In computer circles (read: lots of guys who studied engineering in college and cut their teeth on their first PCs and Apples), he's known as the proprietor of the world's largest collection of privately owned computers. He organizes the Vintage Computer Festival, an international Shangri-La for computer collectors and hobbyists. Now regularly held in Mountain View, Calif., in the fall, the festival started in 1997. Three years later, the first European festival was held in Munich, and the inaugural Midwest Vintage Computer Festival at Purdue University in Indiana will take place July 30. For Ismail, another reason for collecting vintage computers is that computers back in the '60s, '70s and '80s -- the way they looked, the way they were built -- were much more interesting. "Most of the PCs that have come up in the past 15 years, there's nothing special or interesting about them. It's the same box, no matter from what manufacturer," says Ismail. "What computer collectors tend to focus on are computers that are unique -- you get to play with architecture that's completely foreign from what you're used to." For this reason and others, the Holy Grail of any serious collector is the first in the Apple line, the Apple I, which was designed by the Steves -- Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak -- and sold in 1976 for the superstitious price tag of $666.66. It even has its own fan club; the Apple I Owners Club was born in 1977, the same year production of Apple I's was discontinued. "There were 200 made in total," says Ismail. "I've tracked down 35 so far." In the past five years, during the festival in Mountain View, Apple I's have been up for bidding three times. One sold for $16,000 in 2003, Ismail says, and to his chagrin, he doesn't own one. The Apple IIc (the "c," by the way, stood for "compact") is not as scarce as the Apple I -- some 400,000 were produced the first year it came out. But tinkering around with his Apple, a gift from Mom and Dad, is always a good time, says Ballos. He shows it off to people; for a while, his 12-year-old son, Colby, played with it. Ballos, who works in sales for Covad Communications, an Internet company, owns three modern computers: two Shuttle XPCs and a Dell laptop. If he sold his Apple IIc, he'd include the original manuals, and give away the games -- Flight Simulator; Mickey's Space Adventure; One-on-One, a basketball match that pits Julius Erving against Larry Bird -- that are on 5 1/4 -inch floppies, from when a floppy was still floppy. How much would his Apple sell for? He isn't sure. Ismail estimates no more than $300, if Ballos has all the original materials; author Nadeau puts it at a more modest $200. For now, it seems, the Apple IIc that Ballos got for Christmas in 1986 is still a tad too young to be worth real money. ? 2005 The Washington Post Company From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 28 08:53:25 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:53:25 +0000 Subject: RML380Z ROM images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1119966805.25012.29.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 23:16 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone happen to have ROM dumps of from the RML 380Z CPU board? > > I cna;'t help you, alas. IIRC, some RMLs used the TI 3-rail 2716s that > most programmers can't handle. I assume you've checked for this... Aha no I hadn't - and you were spot on! :) I didn't realise that TI's 2716 was a three rail device and their 2516 was equivalent to everyone else's 2716. You learn something new every day and all that :-) The CPU board ROMs in both this 380Z and my own one are TMS2716's as it happens (yet the 80 col board character ROM in the one machine uses a TMS2516) I wonder if I can modify my programmer to at least read three-rail devices (it'd be handy to be able to read 2708's on it anyway). Maybe via a little carrier that supplied the other two rails to the chip. I'll have to grab the relevant datasheets... cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 28 09:16:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Washington Post article on Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <42C1474B.8060608@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Eric Chomko wrote: > Tony Romando, editor in chief of Sync, the men's magazine for the > gadget-obsessed, says there's a one-word reason why people collect old > hard- and software: cool. Hmm, Sync used to be the name of a Sinclair magazine. > Midwest Vintage Computer Festival at Purdue University in Indiana will > take place July 30. Sweet plug!! :) > How much would his Apple sell for? He isn't sure. > > Ismail estimates no more than $300, if Ballos has all the original > materials; author Nadeau puts it at a more modest $200. Oh well, I still have to learn that the caveats never get through the noise when you're talking to a reporter. I told him $300 if it's brand new, in the box, all the manuals, original system disks etc. > For now, it seems, the Apple IIc that Ballos got for Christmas in 1986 > is still a tad too young to be worth real money. Yeah, keep waiting. Anyway, one of the better articles on the subject I've read. Not too many errors and they were very minor at that. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jun 28 09:32:02 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:32:02 +0200 Subject: Washington Post article on Classic Computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C15F62.4090906@hachti.de> Hey, what about the controller.... *g* :-) From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 28 11:50:03 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:50:03 -0500 Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <20050627210208.4cde35b8.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200506221641.JAA15030@clulw009.amd.com> <200506240021.00381.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20050627210208.4cde35b8.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200506281150.03811.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 27 June 2005 21:02, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:21:00 -0500 > > True, but a locksmith could help by removing all the pins from the > cylinder, so that any key, or a screwdriver, or what-not, could > switch the modes on the system. Yeah, and it's a bit of work to figure out the first time, but easy enough to do in the comfort of your own home, assuming you're not completely mechanically incompetent. I've done it several times and have gotten good at it by now. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 28 12:34:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:34:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Programming 2708's In-Reply-To: <20050628005908.72832.qmail@web25006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> from "lee davison" at Jun 28, 5 01:59:08 am Message-ID: > > > the Intel data book makes it very clear you do have to program > > all locations. > > > The unchanged ones have to be reprogrammed with their existing > > contents, you can't skip over them. > > Not true on both counts, you only need to go through the program > cycle for bytes that need to be programmed and if you want to leave > a byte unchanged but still go through the program cycle then you > set the data to $FF as bits can't be programmed high. The Intel data sheet disagrees with you.... > > What the data sheets say often did differ from the practice, even > on official programmers. Maybe so. It probably works fine. But I will not deliberately go against the manufacturer's specifications. It may save a couple of minutes now, but it may also waste a few hours later tracking down an obscure bug.... > > I used to use 2708s in CB to 11m conversions and got away without > the -5v supply by using a lamp to illuminate the chip and generate > the -ve bias photoelectrically, this only worked with one brand of > EPROM though. I'd much rather use a charge pump circuit and do it right. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 28 12:36:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:36:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: RML380Z ROM images In-Reply-To: <20050628010644.45141.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> from "lee davison" at Jun 28, 5 02:06:44 am Message-ID: > > > ps. are 2716's known for failure in this way? > > Yes, especially if they've been flash photographed. > (Ididot photographer killed three of eight EPROMs > on a control system card after being told not to > use the flash in the equipment room.) I guess I've been lucky. I've taken plenty of flash photos of PCBs with EPROMs on them and never lost a bit. It's well-known that they don't work correctly _during_ the flash, the processor running a program from that EPROM will probably crash (EPROM-based microcontrollers are well-known for this), but I've never had permanent damage or even loss of contents. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 28 12:37:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:37:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <20050627210208.4cde35b8.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jun 27, 5 09:02:08 pm Message-ID: > True, but a locksmith could help by removing all the pins from the > cylinder, so that any key, or a screwdriver, or what-not, could switch > the modes on the system. It amazes me that uou'd need a locksmith to do that. I would have thought any halfway decent hacker would know how to dismantle a lock, and would even know how to re-pin most common locks. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 28 12:42:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:42:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: RML380Z ROM images In-Reply-To: <42C0F150.9040303@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jun 28, 5 07:42:24 am Message-ID: > On that note, are UV LEDs powerful enough to erase EPROMs? I'm thinking I think they're far too long a wavelength. > about building an eraser, and want to try an alternative to the rather > expensive and fragile UV tube. That is the only moderately-expensive component though. The rest of the circuitry is the same as to drive a normal fluorescent tube of the same size/power.... You can, of coruse, get the right UV tube as a spare for a commerical EPROM eraser. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 28 12:48:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:48:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: RML380Z ROM images In-Reply-To: <1119966805.25012.29.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 28, 5 01:53:25 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 23:16 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > > Does anyone happen to have ROM dumps of from the RML 380Z CPU board? > > > > I cna;'t help you, alas. IIRC, some RMLs used the TI 3-rail 2716s that > > most programmers can't handle. I assume you've checked for this... > > Aha no I hadn't - and you were spot on! :) I didn't realise that TI's > 2716 was a three rail device and their 2516 was equivalent to everyone > else's 2716. You learn something new every day and all that :-) Don't worry, that caught me out years ago. And I am still making equally stupid mistakes... > > The CPU board ROMs in both this 380Z and my own one are TMS2716's as it > happens (yet the 80 col board character ROM in the one machine uses a > TMS2516) As I mentioned, that's what hte infomration file (which is what RML called the technical manual) shows. > > I wonder if I can modify my programmer to at least read three-rail > devices (it'd be handy to be able to read 2708's on it anyway). Maybe > via a little carrier that supplied the other two rails to the chip. I'll > have to grab the relevant datasheets... It will deepnd on your programmer. If it does something clever (like tries to read at non-standard Vcc levels to check the data is reliably programmed, or if it chacks the device's Vcc current), it may not work. Otherwise it should be fine. -tony From eric at rothfus.com Tue Jun 28 14:50:23 2005 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:50:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: SVD Update Message-ID: <1119982247@rothfus.com> I've been promising it forever, and I've finally posted the SVD source code up at www.theSVD.com. If I'm not mistaken, you could now (theoretically) create your own SVD from scratch based upon the web site. And for you SVD users out there that I missed with my bulk e-mail, the latest version of the software v2.2 is posted, too. BTW, contact me if you want to get ahold of the latest firmware v2.3. Regarding the source code, there are three different pieces: - GUI - the gui is programmed in TCL/TK so the tcl source is up there. The SVD CP distribution is actually a windows/linux executable that is wrapped up with a licensed distribution package, so that isn't included. But the code should run as is. - Firmware - the v2.3 firmware is posted, and includes a complete MicroChip PIC implementation of the SVD. Let me know if you have problems compiling. I'm the only one who has compiled it to date. The firmware implements the "virtual drive" functionality including generating the floppy data signals. - PC Apps - the GUI makes use of 2 PC-based applications to get the tough work done. The source for these tools are posted too. There are some neat things there, including implementations of file systems for the TRS-80, Heathkit, and Apple. Again, I'm the only one who has compiled this code, so let me know if you have problems. DISCLAIMER - You use the software posted at www.theSVD.com at your own risk. Do with it as you will. Change it. Distribute it. Create derivative works of it. Make money off of it (yeah right). Whatever. Please, however, don't b*tch about bugs. By all means report them, though, and I'll fix them. And PLEASE, don't b*tch about my programming. I'm just happy/shocked that it all works. Fortunately, I don't rely on my programming skills these days. :-) Eric From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 28 16:36:25 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jun 28, 5 06:37:59 pm" Message-ID: <200506282136.OAA13780@floodgap.com> > > True, but a locksmith could help by removing all the pins from the > > cylinder, so that any key, or a screwdriver, or what-not, could switch > > the modes on the system. > > It amazes me that uou'd need a locksmith to do that. I would have thought > any halfway decent hacker would know how to dismantle a lock, and would > even know how to re-pin most common locks. Dismantle, yes. Fragment, absolutely. Re-pin, no. I greatly respect your acumen, bot all of us are as dexterous, and you keep saying stuff like that as if it's a mortal sin not to be as adept or confident with a soldering iron or other hardware but yet still consider oneself a "decent hacker." I'm all thumbs with that stuff, and I'd rather have someone who knows how to do it, do it, then wreck hardware because I keep getting browbeaten about how I can't do it myself and should. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The Commodore 64: the last true plug-and-play computer. -------------------- From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 28 16:34:28 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:34:28 -0400 Subject: DSD controller card Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050628173428.0159c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hello, I need a DSD interface card to fit the PDP-8. AFIK it should look like this . I have several other DSD cards including quad width and double width cards for the PDP-11 and LSI-11 and I will swap any of them for the PDP-8 card and I will toss in an original DSD 440 manual and DSD binder. Joe From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 28 16:41:28 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <200506282136.OAA13780@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Jun 28, 5 02:36:25 pm" Message-ID: <200506282141.OAA11688@floodgap.com> > I greatly respect your acumen, bot all of us are as dexterous, and you keep [...] > have someone who knows how to do it, do it, then wreck hardware because I Not all of us can type either. 'But' and 'than' -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Murphy's Law is recursive. Washing your car to make it rain doesn't work. -- From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Jun 28 16:51:02 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:51:02 +0100 Subject: PDP 11 floppy disk question. Message-ID: <008a01c57c2b$7a6f9c60$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> A simple question, I hope! Can I use a normal 51/4" dsdd floppy drive with an RQDX3, in place of the twin drive RX50 unit? If so, do I need a special cable? Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 28 16:52:33 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:52:33 -0400 Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <200506282136.OAA13780@floodgap.com> References: <200506282136.OAA13780@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <42C1C6A1.nail6JA1GQ3TB@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > I'm all thumbs with that stuff That's nothing to apologize about; you stop being "all thumbs" after you've torn apart and fragmented maybe a half-dozen units, and then you start figuring out how to put them back together. (Maybe for the first half-dozen you didn't even want to put them back together... but eventually the urge hits.) After a long while (years) you can tear down the most complicated geartrain and put it back together just because "it has to fit that way". You'll still end up with a few parts left over in the end once in a while! Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Jun 28 16:56:52 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:56:52 -0400 Subject: PDP 11 floppy disk question. In-Reply-To: <008a01c57c2b$7a6f9c60$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <008a01c57c2b$7a6f9c60$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <42C1C7A4.nail6O61L8WCA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Can I use a normal 5.25" dsdd floppy drive with a RQDX3, in place of the > twin drive RX50 unit? Yes, but it'll generally be easier to find a DSHD floppy drive and hook it up. But most/many DSDD's will work too. Do a google search for "third-party-disks.txt"; it's a collection of many years worth of experience on DECUSserve on this sort of use. TEAC FD55GFR's are generally the most available and easily jumpered for use. Many other brands lack even the drive select jumper. Tim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 17:00:20 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:00:20 -0500 Subject: PDP 11 floppy disk question. In-Reply-To: <008a01c57c2b$7a6f9c60$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <008a01c57c2b$7a6f9c60$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 6/28/05, Jim Beacon wrote: > A simple question, I hope! > > Can I use a normal 51/4" dsdd floppy drive with an RQDX3, in place of the > twin drive RX50 unit? If so, do I need a special cable? The Teac FD55-GFR was commonly used on PCs and, when the jumpers are strapped the way DEC did, _is_ an RX33. There are some variations on how some of the signals are presented (pins 2 and 34, IIRC) and how motor start and select interact, so you _do_ have to check jumpers. Once you have a prepared FD55-GFR, it will go on the end of an RQDX3 just fine. I know VMS has no problem with it, but I can't comment on Unix or PDP-11 use. If I had a pointer to the configuration, I'd post it, but I know such things are hanging around on the 'net and in list-members directories. -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 28 17:11:26 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <42C1C6A1.nail6JA1GQ3TB@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jun 28, 5 05:52:33 pm" Message-ID: <200506282211.PAA08448@floodgap.com> > > I'm all thumbs with that stuff > > That's nothing to apologize about; you stop being "all thumbs" after > you've torn apart and fragmented maybe a half-dozen units, and then > you start figuring out how to put them back together. (Maybe for the > first half-dozen you didn't even want to put them back together... > but eventually the urge hits.) Oh, granted, and on eq that I know I can get more of if I ruin it, or commodity PCs ;) I'll do that. It's just on rare or big-ticket items, I'll call in the cavalry. For me, a keylock on a large box would qualify, especially if I paid some amount of money for it; if I lost the keys for my Apple Network Servers, I'd pay the locksmith rather than bash the keylock open myself. My point is that not all of us are so adept. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Rational behavior is a choice, not a predestination. -- Kent Paul Dolan ---- From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jun 28 17:22:21 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:22:21 -0500 Subject: PDP 11 floppy disk question. In-Reply-To: References: <008a01c57c2b$7a6f9c60$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <42C1CD9D.3000607@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/28/05, Jim Beacon wrote: > >>A simple question, I hope! >> >>Can I use a normal 51/4" dsdd floppy drive with an RQDX3, in place of the >>twin drive RX50 unit? If so, do I need a special cable? > > > The Teac FD55-GFR was commonly used on PCs and, when the jumpers are > strapped the way DEC did, _is_ an RX33. There are some variations on > how some of the signals are presented (pins 2 and 34, IIRC) and how > motor start and select interact, so you _do_ have to check jumpers. > Once you have a prepared FD55-GFR, it will go on the end of an RQDX3 > just fine. I know VMS has no problem with it, but I can't comment on > Unix or PDP-11 use. Using a TEAC FD55GFR-149-U7 with my 11/53, and it's good with RSX11M+ and RT-11. I have a couple of FD55GFR-7xxx drives, and I haven't found a jumper setting that works for them. I think bridging a couple of solder pads would get them there, but I haven't needed an RX33 that badly yet. Doc > > If I had a pointer to the configuration, I'd post it, but I know such > things are hanging around on the 'net and in list-members directories. > > -ethan > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 28 17:26:40 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Programming 2708's Message-ID: <200506282226.PAA19057@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > ---snip--- >Intel changed the specifications of the 2708 a couple of times, later docs >state it does not require programming from address 0. > >I have changed individual bits (only from a high to low, to go from low to >high the entire chip must be erased). > >The later docs still state sequential writing but no longer require starting >at 0 but I have written non sequentially and can swear by that. I wrote a >program that verified before writing to speed up programming, this skipped >many bytes and I used it to modify previously written EPROM's. The buffer >in RAM was sequentially read but the writing was NOT sequential it would >skip bytes when a write was not needed. > >Any byte can have high bits changed to low even if they were previously >programmed. > Hi Randy I recall the primary reason they wanted one to go through the entire cycle was that it gave the particular spot that was programmed a chance to cool down. I'm not sure if this was actually a real problem or just a suspected problem. I may have been an electrical issue with space charge as well. Technically, you could skip locations that didn't need programming but you should insert a delay equal to the normal total time before programming the same location again. Anyway, that is what I remember. Dwight From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Jun 28 17:34:48 2005 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:34:48 -0400 Subject: Classiccmp cartoon sighting Message-ID: <42C1D088.8090005@bellsouth.net> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > I wouldn't expect that New Yorker readers know what Fortran is. > Surprised they didn't just make it Windows. Well, clearly John Allain was reading the New Yorker -- after all, he saw the cartoon. I'm also a reader. I'm pretty sure both John and I know what Fortran is. Any particular reason for your comment, or do you simply insult large groups of people without thinking about it? Glen 0/0 From news at computercollector.com Tue Jun 28 17:43:17 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:43:17 -0400 Subject: Classiccmp cartoon sighting In-Reply-To: <42C1D088.8090005@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <200506282249.j5SMnoeo086003@keith.ezwind.net> I'm just saying that the magazine caters to mostly a generic liberal arts audience (and that's "liberal arts" in the field-of-study sense, not "left-wing artists"). Readers in that audience are unlikely to know about Fortran. There's no reason for you to feel insulted. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Goodwin Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 6:35 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Classiccmp cartoon sighting 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > I wouldn't expect that New Yorker readers know what Fortran is. > Surprised they didn't just make it Windows. Well, clearly John Allain was reading the New Yorker -- after all, he saw the cartoon. I'm also a reader. I'm pretty sure both John and I know what Fortran is. Any particular reason for your comment, or do you simply insult large groups of people without thinking about it? Glen 0/0 From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Jun 28 18:53:01 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:53:01 -0500 Subject: Programming 2708's References: Message-ID: <004b01c57c3c$84c67dd0$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 4:49 PM > > Intel changed the specifications of the 2708 a couple of times, later docs > > state it does not require programming from address 0. > > But did they also change the design of the chip, I wonder. Later 2708s > may be more forgiving as to the programming algorithm they'll accept. > > Since Intel were so definite about having to go through all locations in > order n times in the data sheet I have, I would certainly want to do it > that way. Other methods might well damage the chip or lead to poor data > retention. > > > > > I have changed individual bits (only from a high to low, to go from low to > > high the entire chip must be erased). > > You can change individual bits, sure. The data sheet tells you how to do > that. > > You have to go through _all_ the locations. If a locations is to be > unchanged, you program it again with its current contents (a special case > of this is that if you want to leave a location totally unprogrammed > after erasing the chip, you re-write it with 0xFF). > > > > > > The later docs still state sequential writing but no longer require starting > > at 0 but I have written non sequentially and can swear by that. I wrote a > > program that verified before writing to speed up programming, this skipped > > Oh, it probably worked. But I wouldn't recomend doing it. 2708s are > getting harder to find, so I'd not want to risk damaging one. And I > certainly don't want to have to trace a fault caused by an unreliable bit > in an EPROM. I would follow the manfacturer's instructions... > > It reminds me af a friend who programmed 27128s with a single 1ms pulse > per location. It seemed to work. They verified OK. And then a bit later > on he got data-rot.... > > -tony As I stated you can not rely on a single read to verify the data is recorded, once you get a verify you MUST give it another write cycle to ensure data. For the later docs for the 27128's it confirms this and adds that VCC should be raised to 6v. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 28 18:50:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: National Semiconductor MM5740AAE/N Message-ID: I could still use a couple more NS MM5740AAE/N keyboard encoders. These are in a 40-pin dip package. They can probably be found in old 1970s keyboards. I'd be interested in buying either just the chip or the whole keyboard if you happen to find one surplus in your parts bin. If you've got one, please contact me for sale/trade info. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Jun 28 18:57:45 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:57:45 -0500 Subject: Programming 2708's References: Message-ID: <005301c57c3d$2e22a980$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Cini, Richard" Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 1:45 PM > Dwight: > > Actually what I'm going to do is build a few adapters for different > 24-pin densities such as the 2716, 2732 and the 2532. I have a few tubes of > 2532s so I'm going to try those by mounting a socket on a DIP header and > making the wiring changes between the two layers. > > Rich Rich, you will find it is so simple a header is not required: Just use a 24 pin socket leaving a couple of pins bent out and grounded. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Jun 28 19:10:35 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:10:35 -0500 Subject: Programming 2708's References: <200506282226.PAA19057@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <005901c57c3e$f94f7d80$cf7ba8c0@RANDY> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 5:26 PM > >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > > > ---snip--- > >Intel changed the specifications of the 2708 a couple of times, later docs > >state it does not require programming from address 0. > > > >I have changed individual bits (only from a high to low, to go from low to > >high the entire chip must be erased). > > > >The later docs still state sequential writing but no longer require starting > >at 0 but I have written non sequentially and can swear by that. I wrote a > >program that verified before writing to speed up programming, this skipped > >many bytes and I used it to modify previously written EPROM's. The buffer > >in RAM was sequentially read but the writing was NOT sequential it would > >skip bytes when a write was not needed. > > > >Any byte can have high bits changed to low even if they were previously > >programmed. > > > > Hi Randy > I recall the primary reason they wanted one to go through > the entire cycle was that it gave the particular spot > that was programmed a chance to cool down. I'm not sure if this > was actually a real problem or just a suspected problem. > I may have been an electrical issue with space charge as well. > Technically, you could skip locations that didn't need > programming but you should insert a delay equal to the > normal total time before programming the same location > again. > Anyway, that is what I remember. > Dwight Unless you are writing just a few bytes skipping sections doesn't matter. If for instance you are modifying all 8 bits of one byte and cycle over it too much it will destroy the chip. Writing 50 or more bytes where you are modifying an average of 4 bits per byte would not give a problem. Please note writing a 1 to a bit does nothing and on average only 1/2 of the bits are changed from a 1 to a 0. I've programmed hundreds of 2708's and have had few problems. The few problems I've had have usually been that the EPROM would not erase to all 1's (bad chips). I have destroyed a couple of 2708's by trying to modify a single byte too rapidly but I saw it as a learning experience. Since then I learned it is possible to program a chip rapidly, safely, and reliably. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 28 19:13:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:13:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <200506282136.OAA13780@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 28, 5 02:36:25 pm Message-ID: > > It amazes me that uou'd need a locksmith to do that. I would have thought > > any halfway decent hacker would know how to dismantle a lock, and would > > even know how to re-pin most common locks. > > Dismantle, yes. Fragment, absolutely. Re-pin, no. > > I greatly respect your acumen, bot all of us are as dexterous, and you keep > saying stuff like that as if it's a mortal sin not to be as adept or > confident with a soldering iron or other hardware but yet still consider > oneself a "decent hacker." I'm all thumbs with that stuff, and I'd rather FWIW, I do not consider myself to be anything like good enough to be a hacker, decent or otherwise. > have someone who knows how to do it, do it, then wreck hardware because I > keep getting browbeaten about how I can't do it myself and should. The only way to learn is to practice. Period. Yes, you will make mistakes, and at first you'll probably do things that at the time you don't have the skill to put right. You will end up with bits all round the room :-) (I speak from experience here). But you will also gain experience. Slowly you'll find you'll be able to get things back together again, that you will know what to undo and in what order, and so on. Obviously you don't practice on some rare/important (to you) machine. In this case, you might want to buy/obtain similar cabinet locks with the sole purpose of pulling them apart so as to see how they're made, and knowing that you probably won't get them all back togenter again. After a bit you will feel like working on your IBM system without worrying that you'll damage it. This is not a flame, but the attitude I find difficult to understand is not that you don't know something (damnit, there's plenty I don't know...), but that you don't intned to learn it. As I said , there's plenty I don't know, but I feel that should I need to work on , then I'll take the time to try to understand what I am doing... -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 28 20:00:04 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jun 29, 5 01:13:22 am" Message-ID: <200506290100.SAA14458@floodgap.com> > > have someone who knows how to do it, do it, then wreck hardware because I > > keep getting browbeaten about how I can't do it myself and should. > > The only way to learn is to practice. Period. Yes, you will make > mistakes, and at first you'll probably do things that at the time you > don't have the skill to put right. You will end up with bits all round > the room :-) (I speak from experience here). But you will also gain > experience. Slowly you'll find you'll be able to get things back together > again, that you will know what to undo and in what order, and so on. > > Obviously you don't practice on some rare/important (to you) machine. In > this case, you might want to buy/obtain similar cabinet locks with the > sole purpose of pulling them apart so as to see how they're made, and > knowing that you probably won't get them all back togenter again. After a > bit you will feel like working on your IBM system without worrying that > you'll damage it. That's exactly my point! I'm not risking my unusual hardware on my inexperience, and I don't think that you should imply others should either (which is how the original post came across). If he doesn't know how to re-key a lock, and I know I sure don't, then he should get expert help if the machine means something to him. Ergo, the locksmith. If it was some PoC machine that I knew I could get another of, or was busted and there was nothing to lose, then fine, I'd probably mess with it. But I'm definitely aware of my limitations, and I don't see a learning experience in ruining unusual hardware trying to learn to fix it (in particular when a far better alternative to self-repair is available). I'd trust you to fix my machines. I wouldn't trust me. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Famous, adj.: Conspicuously miserable. -- Ambrose Bierce ------------------ From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Jun 28 20:25:41 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:25:41 -0500 Subject: Programming 2708's In-Reply-To: <004601c57933$b8bbb710$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <004601c57933$b8bbb710$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <20050628202541.3582e9e5.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:12:29 -0400 "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > All: > > OK, I'm ready to burn a modified copy of the Altair Turnkey > Monitor > into a 2708 to use in my 8800b as a test program. Lo and behold, my > programmer won't do a 2708 -- it'll only go down to 2716. Naturally I > don't have any 2716s around and the VG ROM board accepts only the 2704 > or 2708(without modification). > > So I browsed around eBay and elsewhere to see if any other > programmers support the 2708 and it seems that none do. They all start > at the 2716. > > What programmer can I look for that has the ability to program a > 2708? > > Thanks. I believe an Intel MDS will program a 2708. And then you have the privledge of using an i4040 processor to burn your EPROM since there's one inside the EPROM programmer peripheral. I got the external programmer with my MDS but haven't used it yet. > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ > > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 28 20:35:00 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200506290137.VAA28684@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > FWIW, I do not consider myself to be anything like good enough to be > a hacker, decent or otherwise. Your modesty does you credit, but-- you're nuts. The hacker spirit does not have to be expressed in software to be the true hacker spirit. I count my father as a hacker, though I doubt he wrote a line of code in his life (his genius was for *physical* mechanism). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 28 20:43:46 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:43:46 -0400 Subject: PDP 11 floppy disk question. Message-ID: <0IIT0098AORE3FZ1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP 11 floppy disk question. > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:00:20 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 6/28/05, Jim Beacon wrote: >> A simple question, I hope! >> >> Can I use a normal 51/4" dsdd floppy drive with an RQDX3, in place of the >> twin drive RX50 unit? If so, do I need a special cable? > >The Teac FD55-GFR was commonly used on PCs and, when the jumpers are >strapped the way DEC did, _is_ an RX33. There are some variations on >how some of the signals are presented (pins 2 and 34, IIRC) and how >motor start and select interact, so you _do_ have to check jumpers. >Once you have a prepared FD55-GFR, it will go on the end of an RQDX3 >just fine. I know VMS has no problem with it, but I can't comment on >Unix or PDP-11 use. > >If I had a pointer to the configuration, I'd post it, but I know such >things are hanging around on the 'net and in list-members directories. > >-ethan The TEAC FD55GFR is the official RX33 (IE: dec bought and used the teac) and works fine with RQDX3 with the distribution pannel (ba23 or from BA123). I have a vax and a 11/73 using that combo. Allison From rickb at bensene.com Tue Jun 28 20:59:26 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:59:26 -0700 Subject: Another PDP-11 Floppy Disk Question (RSTS) In-Reply-To: <008a01c57c2b$7a6f9c60$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20050629015509.292E197C30@pail.bensene.com> I have my PDP 11/34 running smoothly with RSTS 9.2, on three RL02 drives. I've got an RX02 floppy, and RSTS sees it, but at 9.0, RSTS dropped support of floppies as file-structured devices. There are two utilities, called FIT and FLINT that come as part of the distribution, but I've not been able to find any documentation on these programs. Apparently they provide a means to access floppies in a semi-file-structured method, as well as writing floppies in RSTS or IBM formats. All I've been able to glean is looking through the .TSK files with a file dumper, and looking at the text portions of the images, but they aren't very informative. Anyone got any docs on these two utilities? Rick Bensene From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 28 21:02:02 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:02:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programming 2708's Message-ID: <200506290228.WAA28930@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> All this talk of 2708s and how to program them makes me wonder.... I've got some PROMs of various sorts (mostly UV-erase, but a few 28xxx EEPROMS). I'd like to throw together a burner. But to this end, I find I care about things such as differences between one maker's 27512 and another's. Is the sort of trouble described for the 2708 something that was worked out of PROMs early in their existence, and for later devices I can use pretty much any manufacturer's data sheet, or do I have to make sure I use a reference that corresponds to the exact maker and chip I'm trying to write? If the former, what counts as "later"? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 28 21:28:45 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:28:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xilinx Fans Message-ID: I know there are a few on the list. I have a card set (mystery custom job) that contains a bunch of FPGAs. Rather than pluck out the Xilinxs and offer them, I am just going to offer the whole shootin match and let YOU pluck the Xilinxs out. (1) 2018-70PC84C (2) 2018-100PC84C (2) 3030-100PC68C (1) 3030-100PC84C (7) 3042-100PC84C All socketted! Unknown condition. The boards also have lots of other oddball parts (soldered in mostly). I will pluck out the three i960 microprocessors, unless someone needs them, as well. Offers plus shipping? Contact me off list. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Jun 28 21:40:41 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:40:41 -0500 Subject: RML380Z ROM images In-Reply-To: <69f3fa814d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <20050628010644.45141.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <42C0F150.9040303@gjcp.net> <69f3fa814d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <20050628214041.30d1233f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:18:09 +0100 Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <42C0F150.9040303 at gjcp.net> > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > On that note, are UV LEDs powerful enough to erase EPROMs? I'm > > thinking about building an eraser, and want to try an alternative to > > the rather expensive and fragile UV tube. > > I doubt it. IIRC the wavelength is wrong - you need 253.7nm > ("germicidal ultraviolet") to erase EPROMs. You might be able to get a > UV LED to do it, but it'll take a long while to erase. > > Magenta sell an EPROM eraser kit - that might be worth a try. At last > check it was about ?30. > I have a germicidal cabinet for erasing EPROMs. In it's original life, it was a goggle cabinet for a high school metal shop. Big racks in it for a whole classroom full of goggles, and lined inside with mirrors. And an interlock, of course. I never really need to erase the quantity of EPROMs it is capable of. From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Tue Jun 28 21:50:02 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:50:02 -0700 Subject: IBM Powerstation 370 Parts - Anyone Want? In-Reply-To: <200506290137.VAA28684@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200506290137.VAA28684@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <42C20C5A.1080109@soupwizard.com> Hey, I have a few of these Powerstation 7015-370's and have some parts left over: - Memory boards, filled with IBM 8MB simms. Each board has 64MB. The Powerstation 370's all have 2 slots for boards. - The highly sought-after GT4X 3-slot (MCA) video card set:, with the "pipe" card option: - ppr0 00-02 POWER Gt4 Midrange Graphics Adapter - pgr0 00-03 POWER Gt4 Midrange 8-bit Frame Buffer - pop0 00-04 POWER Gt4 Midrange 24-bit Frame Buffer - ppc0 00-02-01 POWER Gt4x Midrange Graphics Adapter Turbo option The GT4X has what looks to be a VGA connector on it. All my other rs6k boxes have the mildly sought-after standard RGB video connectors. If you want any other parts (fans, cpu board, regular MCA rgb cards, power supply ,etc) let me know. I have too much stuff, so it's going at the end of the July 4th weekend. Since I'm going to run these beasts headless and don't need more than one box running, anyone who wants a multi-board mca video card that doubles as a space heater, or some memory, just pay shipping and it's yours. Jeff From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 28 21:51:17 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:51:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Odd Sun thing Message-ID: In the whatinthehellisthat department: I have a small daughterboard, pulled from an very early Sun SPARC machine (perhaps the first generation Sun-4 architecture). The floating point chip was replaced by this daughterboard. On the daughterboard is the PACT8847 chip (the normal floating point unit), plus a larger chip called 100-1845-1 SUN-GNUFPC. The daughterboard seems to be called GNUFPC COBRA, and seems like real Sun hardware. Ideas? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dhbarr at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 22:27:18 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:27:18 -0500 Subject: Odd Sun thing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/28/05, William Donzelli wrote: > In the whatinthehellisthat department: > > I have a small daughterboard, pulled from an very early Sun SPARC machine > (perhaps the first generation Sun-4 architecture). The floating point chip > was replaced by this daughterboard. On the daughterboard is the PACT8847 > chip (the normal floating point unit), plus a larger chip called > 100-1845-1 SUN-GNUFPC. The daughterboard seems to be called GNUFPC COBRA, > and seems like real Sun hardware. "There were two types of FPU used in SS2's, the Weitek 3170 ( used in most machines) and the GNUFPC/TI8847 (used in some early machines). " -dhbarr, cribbed from http://tinyurl.com/a6aec From dhbarr at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 22:27:18 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:27:18 -0500 Subject: Odd Sun thing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/28/05, William Donzelli wrote: > In the whatinthehellisthat department: > > I have a small daughterboard, pulled from an very early Sun SPARC machine > (perhaps the first generation Sun-4 architecture). The floating point chip > was replaced by this daughterboard. On the daughterboard is the PACT8847 > chip (the normal floating point unit), plus a larger chip called > 100-1845-1 SUN-GNUFPC. The daughterboard seems to be called GNUFPC COBRA, > and seems like real Sun hardware. "There were two types of FPU used in SS2's, the Weitek 3170 ( used in most machines) and the GNUFPC/TI8847 (used in some early machines). " -dhbarr, cribbed from http://tinyurl.com/a6aec From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 28 22:31:55 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:31:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Odd Sun thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > "There were two types of FPU used in SS2's, the Weitek 3170 ( > used in most machines) and the GNUFPC/TI8847 (used in some early > machines). " > > -dhbarr, cribbed from http://tinyurl.com/a6aec Hmmm...OK. This is not from an SS2, but one of the largeboard VME machines. Perhaps a transition (I mean, kludge)? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 23:04:27 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:04:27 -0400 Subject: Xilinx Fans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/28/05, William Donzelli wrote: > I know there are a few on the list. > > I have a card set (mystery custom job) that contains a bunch of > FPGAs. Rather than pluck out the Xilinxs and offer them, I am just going > to offer the whole shootin match and let YOU pluck the Xilinxs out. > > (1) 2018-70PC84C > (2) 2018-100PC84C > (2) 3030-100PC68C > (1) 3030-100PC84C > (7) 3042-100PC84C The only problem is that the current free version of xilinx software does not support those chips. You need to find very older versions to support them. vax, 9000 > > All socketted! Unknown condition. The boards also have lots of other > oddball parts (soldered in mostly). I will pluck out the three i960 > microprocessors, unless someone needs them, as well. > > Offers plus shipping? > > Contact me off list. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > > > From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Tue Jun 28 23:53:15 2005 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:53:15 -0400 Subject: Washington Post article on Classic Computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C2293B.7000809@verizon.net> Dude, you're famous! "Uber Collector!!" I bow to your supremacy... Eric Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Eric Chomko wrote: > > >>Tony Romando, editor in chief of Sync, the men's magazine for the >>gadget-obsessed, says there's a one-word reason why people collect old >>hard- and software: cool. > > > Hmm, Sync used to be the name of a Sinclair magazine. > > >>Midwest Vintage Computer Festival at Purdue University in Indiana will >>take place July 30. > > > Sweet plug!! :) > > >>How much would his Apple sell for? He isn't sure. >> >>Ismail estimates no more than $300, if Ballos has all the original >>materials; author Nadeau puts it at a more modest $200. > > > Oh well, I still have to learn that the caveats never get through the > noise when you're talking to a reporter. I told him $300 if it's brand > new, in the box, all the manuals, original system disks etc. > > >>For now, it seems, the Apple IIc that Ballos got for Christmas in 1986 >>is still a tad too young to be worth real money. > > > Yeah, keep waiting. > > Anyway, one of the better articles on the subject I've read. Not too many > errors and they were very minor at that. > From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Tue Jun 28 23:58:11 2005 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:58:11 -0400 Subject: Washington Post article on Classic Computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C22A63.30903@verizon.net> My apologies to Tony Romando and any others that I missed mentioning. Sellam, you mention the WP reporter; when and where did this interview occur? Just curious. Eric Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Eric Chomko wrote: > > >>Tony Romando, editor in chief of Sync, the men's magazine for the >>gadget-obsessed, says there's a one-word reason why people collect old >>hard- and software: cool. > > > Hmm, Sync used to be the name of a Sinclair magazine. > > >>Midwest Vintage Computer Festival at Purdue University in Indiana will >>take place July 30. > > > Sweet plug!! :) > > >>How much would his Apple sell for? He isn't sure. >> >>Ismail estimates no more than $300, if Ballos has all the original >>materials; author Nadeau puts it at a more modest $200. > > > Oh well, I still have to learn that the caveats never get through the > noise when you're talking to a reporter. I told him $300 if it's brand > new, in the box, all the manuals, original system disks etc. > > >>For now, it seems, the Apple IIc that Ballos got for Christmas in 1986 >>is still a tad too young to be worth real money. > > > Yeah, keep waiting. > > Anyway, one of the better articles on the subject I've read. Not too many > errors and they were very minor at that. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 00:01:21 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:01:21 -0500 Subject: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? Message-ID: Hi, I picked up an ELL (RS 28-280) at the outlet store. It was cheap because all of the loose parts were missing. I have the base and the books. The PDF file on the RS web site doesn't list things in enough detail to be able to build a list of missing parts. I'm going through the books and trying to tally the required parts, but it's taking hours and I'm likely to make mistakes. Does anyone have one of these and might they have enough time to make a physical inventory? Even a digital picture of the parts spread out on a tabletop would be really helpful. Thanks, -ethan From KParker at workcover.com Wed Jun 29 00:17:52 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:47:52 +0930 Subject: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C1C8@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Is this what you are looking for http://support.radioshack.com/support_games/doc60/60351.htm ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: Wednesday, 29 June 2005 2:31 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? Hi, I picked up an ELL (RS 28-280) at the outlet store. It was cheap because all of the loose parts were missing. I have the base and the books. The PDF file on the RS web site doesn't list things in enough detail to be able to build a list of missing parts. I'm going through the books and trying to tally the required parts, but it's taking hours and I'm likely to make mistakes. Does anyone have one of these and might they have enough time to make a physical inventory? Even a digital picture of the parts spread out on a tabletop would be really helpful. Thanks, -ethan ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From KParker at workcover.com Wed Jun 29 00:19:32 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:49:32 +0930 Subject: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C1C9@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> More info here too Ethan http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?cookie%5Ftest=1&catalog_name=CTLG& category_name=CTLG_006_006_004_000&product_id=28-280 ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: Wednesday, 29 June 2005 2:31 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? Hi, I picked up an ELL (RS 28-280) at the outlet store. It was cheap because all of the loose parts were missing. I have the base and the books. The PDF file on the RS web site doesn't list things in enough detail to be able to build a list of missing parts. I'm going through the books and trying to tally the required parts, but it's taking hours and I'm likely to make mistakes. Does anyone have one of these and might they have enough time to make a physical inventory? Even a digital picture of the parts spread out on a tabletop would be really helpful. Thanks, -ethan ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Wed Jun 29 00:29:24 2005 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (GManuel (GMC)) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:29:24 -0400 Subject: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:ethan.dicks at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:01 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? > > > Hi, > > I picked up an ELL (RS 28-280) at the outlet store. It was cheap > because all of the loose parts were missing. I have the base and the > books. The PDF file on the RS web site doesn't list things in enough > detail to be able to build a list of missing parts. I'm going through > the books and trying to tally the required parts, but it's taking > hours and I'm likely to make mistakes. > > Does anyone have one of these and might they have enough time to make > a physical inventory? Even a digital picture of the parts spread out > on a tabletop would be really helpful. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > > > Ethan, I believe I can lay my hands on mine tomorrow and will do as you ask. Talk to you soon. Greg ==> See forgotten passwords befind **** asterisks: www.SeePassword.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 01:06:34 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:06:34 -0500 Subject: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C1C8@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C1C8@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: On 6/29/05, Parker, Kevin wrote: > Is this what you are looking for > > http://support.radioshack.com/support_games/doc60/60351.htm > > I picked up an ELL (RS 28-280) at the outlet store. It was cheap > because all of the loose parts were missing. I have the base and the > books. The PDF file on the RS web site doesn't list things in enough > detail to be able to build a list of missing parts. No... that's what I already have, and as you can see, it does not tell you that you need, say, 8 1K resistors, but only 2 1M resistors, etc. I know how long the wires need to be (by color), but not quantity. I can't tell what Power MOSFET they are using, etc. It's also not even close to a complete list - some ICs are listed, but not all, and there are no quantities (I know it uses 2 555s, for example). I wish they had included a parts list in the manual, but they did not. This is why I asked if anyone had one. Thanks, -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 01:07:04 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:07:04 -0500 Subject: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C1C9@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C1C9@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: On 6/29/05, Parker, Kevin wrote: > More info here too Ethan > > http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?cookie%5Ftest=1&catalog_name=CTLG& > category_name=CTLG_006_006_004_000&product_id=28-280 How is this more info? Thanks, -ethan From KParker at workcover.com Wed Jun 29 01:11:30 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:41:30 +0930 Subject: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C1CE@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Its where I found the link to the parts list (for want of a better word) - thought it might be useful Ethan. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: Wednesday, 29 June 2005 3:37 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? On 6/29/05, Parker, Kevin wrote: > More info here too Ethan > > http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?cookie%5Ftest=1&catalog_name=CTL > G& category_name=CTLG_006_006_004_000&product_id=28-280 How is this more info? Thanks, -ethan ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 29 06:47:40 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:47:40 +0000 Subject: Programming 2708's In-Reply-To: <200506290228.WAA28930@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200506290228.WAA28930@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1120045660.1536.12.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 22:02 -0400, der Mouse wrote: > All this talk of 2708s and how to program them makes me wonder.... > > I've got some PROMs of various sorts (mostly UV-erase, but a few 28xxx > EEPROMS). I'd like to throw together a burner. But to this end, I > find I care about things such as differences between one maker's 27512 > and another's. Certainly my Elan programmer likes to know what specific manufacturer made the device it's programming, rather than just a general class of device. As found out recently, it doesn't seem capable of handling three-rail devices though, which is a shame. It's old enough that it won't do anything about 1MBit either, although that's rarely a problem for classic stuff. It uses plug-in cartridges which define the devices that it knows about (it's a PAL programmer as well as EPROM), uses a Z80 as the CPU, with a keypad for user control and LCD for display - I/O to a host is via serial, in a variety of user-selectable data formats. Wish I had the specs for the cartridge data format so I could add other stuff. Building a similiar sort of thing based around an S100 CPU board (say) could be in interesting project for someone; if the PAL side of it is ignored then it's probably not *that* complex a task. cheers Jules From menadeau at comcast.net Wed Jun 29 07:03:48 2005 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:03:48 -0400 Subject: Washington Post article on Classic Computers References: Message-ID: <003001c57ca2$9d2cc3f0$0b01a8c0@Mike> > Sweet plug!! :) > > > How much would his Apple sell for? He isn't sure. > > > > Ismail estimates no more than $300, if Ballos has all the original > > materials; author Nadeau puts it at a more modest $200. I haven't seen the article, but the interview made me nervous. I had to keep correcting him, and he was obviously angling for me to give him high prices. I'm glad the article seems to have turned out OK. > > Oh well, I still have to learn that the caveats never get through the > noise when you're talking to a reporter. I told him $300 if it's brand > new, in the box, all the manuals, original system disks etc. > > > For now, it seems, the Apple IIc that Ballos got for Christmas in 1986 > > is still a tad too young to be worth real money. > > Yeah, keep waiting. > > Anyway, one of the better articles on the subject I've read. Not too many > errors and they were very minor at that. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From allain at panix.com Wed Jun 29 07:20:59 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:20:59 -0400 Subject: IBM PVS, GE GAP References: Message-ID: <007101c57ca5$03c7c900$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > In the whatinthehellisthat department: I'll just post now that I'd be interested in finding either of these hardware items, or people owning such IBM Power Visualization System (PVS), circa 1991 GE Graphics Array Processor (GAP), circa 1986 There were probably 5 of the first made and 20 of the second, but here goes a try. John A. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 29 08:43:59 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:43:59 -0400 Subject: Another PDP-11 Floppy Disk Question (RSTS) References: <008a01c57c2b$7a6f9c60$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20050629015509.292E197C30@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <17090.42399.305286.872069@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Rick" == Rick Bensene writes: Rick> I have my PDP 11/34 running smoothly with RSTS 9.2, on three Rick> RL02 drives. I've got an RX02 floppy, and RSTS sees it, but at Rick> 9.0, RSTS dropped support of floppies as file-structured Rick> devices. There are two utilities, called FIT and FLINT that Rick> come as part of the distribution, but I've not been able to Rick> find any documentation on these programs. Apparently they Rick> provide a means to access floppies in a semi-file-structured Rick> method, as well as writing floppies in RSTS or IBM formats. Rick> All I've been able to glean is looking through the .TSK files Rick> with a file dumper, and looking at the text portions of the Rick> images, but they aren't very informative. Rick> Anyone got any docs on these two utilities? RSTS NEVER supported native (RSTS format) file structures on RX01/02 floppies. Those were always treated by the kernel as non-file structures block devices, and intended as interchange media only. RX50s and their successors -- 5.25 inch floppies attached to MSCP controllers -- always were file structured and continued that way. That takes no effort since it just uses the common MSCP machinery. In any case... FIT is the interchange program for reading/writing RT-11 file structure (not just on floppies, but on pretty much any block device that RT-11 supports). FLINT is the interchange program for reading "IBM format" -- not sure what that means, not PC format as far as I can tell, since the code is full of EBCDIC handling. So presumably it's for some mainframe floppy format...??!!?? The documentation for both should be in the user's manual, which I don't have. Judging by the source code, it's roughly like this: FIT command line: output/switches=input/switches Switches are /rsts, /rt11 to indicate the format type of input or output. (Also /dos ??? for DOS-11???) /ze to zero (reinit the file system). /de to delete a file (RT side only). /li to list the directory. /sq to do an RT file system compress. /watch to be verbose (show what's going on as it happens). FLINT seems to want a command ("directory", "toibm", "torsts", "zero" (synonym of "erase")); it then prompts for input and output specs. paul From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 29 10:47:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:47:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Washington Post article on Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <42C22A63.30903@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Eric Chomko wrote: > My apologies to Tony Romando and any others that I missed mentioning. > > Sellam, you mention the WP reporter; when and where did this interview > occur? Just curious. Over the course of about 3-4 phone calls (one initial inquiry, the main interview, and then a couple follow-ups). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 29 10:49:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Washington Post article on Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <003001c57ca2$9d2cc3f0$0b01a8c0@Mike> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Michael Nadeau wrote: > > Sweet plug!! :) > > > > > How much would his Apple sell for? He isn't sure. > > > > > > Ismail estimates no more than $300, if Ballos has all the original > > > materials; author Nadeau puts it at a more modest $200. > > I haven't seen the article, but the interview made me nervous. I had to keep > correcting him, and he was obviously angling for me to give him high prices. > I'm glad the article seems to have turned out OK. Well, your price quote came out a hell of a lot more reasonable than mine. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 29 11:43:03 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RML380Z ROM images Message-ID: <200506291643.JAA19513@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Scott Stevens" ---snip--- > >I have a germicidal cabinet for erasing EPROMs. In it's original life, >it was a goggle cabinet for a high school metal shop. Big racks in it >for a whole classroom full of goggles, and lined inside with mirrors. >And an interlock, of course. > >I never really need to erase the quantity of EPROMs it is capable of. Hi The mirrors most likely don't do much more than any other surface. At the wave length used to erase EPROMS, about the only thing that will transmit the light is quartz. ordinary glass used for mirrors only allows a tiny fraction to pass through. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 29 11:39:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: Old CPM computers FREE to good home (fwd) Message-ID: I'm just the messenger. See below. Reply-to: buyer2 at comcast.net I have a Molecular. It's large on the scale of a Microvax or VAX 11/725. >Reply-To: "Buyer2" >From: "Buyer2" >To: >Subject: Old CPM computers FREE to good home >Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:10:36 -0400 > > >I have two computers that need a home > >An ALTOS 8000-12A rack mount, ( 6 Rack Units high), small business computer > >and a MOLECULAR Multi-User, small file cabinet size, medium business computer >(Molecular has a huge 20 meg harddrive)(S-100 bus) > >Both run modified versions of CPM (multi-user with common Z-80 processor >for harddrive, floppies, and printer and a dedicated Z-80 for each user >terminal) User terminals connect with RS-232 > >Lots of software on 8" floppies and data tapes > >A wide carriage DATASOUTH tractor feed 9 pin printer > >Two Televideo RS-232 CRT Terminals for above > >Many books and manuals - Multiplan, DBII, compilers, WordStar etc > >All were working when shut down ten years ago - now in garage > >Whole shebang with books etc probably weights 300 lbs. > >I used these machines until forced to start doing my work in WordPerfect >(and now Word) - how many word processors does the world need anyway - I >hat4e Word > >Do you want them? > >Any idea how to get them to you? > >I live in Edgewater near Annapolis MD > >Thanks >Turq > >410 798-1936 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spedraja at ono.com Wed Jun 29 15:18:38 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:18:38 +0200 Subject: Old CPM computers FREE to good home (fwd) References: Message-ID: <0c5601c57ce7$bbe73ab0$1502a8c0@ACER> Arrrgghhh... One Altos 8000 :-) I hate the actual non-existance of the Star Trek teletransporter Regards Sergio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 6:39 PM Subject: Fwd: Old CPM computers FREE to good home (fwd) > > I'm just the messenger. See below. > > Reply-to: buyer2 at comcast.net > > I have a Molecular. It's large on the scale of a Microvax or VAX 11/725. > > >Reply-To: "Buyer2" > >From: "Buyer2" > >To: > >Subject: Old CPM computers FREE to good home > >Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:10:36 -0400 > > > > > >I have two computers that need a home > > > >An ALTOS 8000-12A rack mount, ( 6 Rack Units high), small business computer > > > >and a MOLECULAR Multi-User, small file cabinet size, medium business computer > >(Molecular has a huge 20 meg harddrive)(S-100 bus) > > > >Both run modified versions of CPM (multi-user with common Z-80 processor > >for harddrive, floppies, and printer and a dedicated Z-80 for each user > >terminal) User terminals connect with RS-232 > > > >Lots of software on 8" floppies and data tapes > > > >A wide carriage DATASOUTH tractor feed 9 pin printer > > > >Two Televideo RS-232 CRT Terminals for above > > > >Many books and manuals - Multiplan, DBII, compilers, WordStar etc > > > >All were working when shut down ten years ago - now in garage > > > >Whole shebang with books etc probably weights 300 lbs. > > > >I used these machines until forced to start doing my work in WordPerfect > >(and now Word) - how many word processors does the world need anyway - I > >hat4e Word > > > >Do you want them? > > > >Any idea how to get them to you? > > > >I live in Edgewater near Annapolis MD > > > >Thanks > >Turq > > > >410 798-1936 > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 29 16:12:32 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:12:32 -0400 Subject: IBM PVS, GE GAP In-Reply-To: <007101c57ca5$03c7c900$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <007101c57ca5$03c7c900$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <42C30EC0.nailOR012AYBT@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > GE Graphics Array Processor (GAP), circa 1986 I believe that elements of this made their way into GE Medical Imaging NMR (err, um, MRI) machines. I did some work with their competition. Lotsa fun: a Unibus subsystem filled with dozens and dozens of multiwire PC boards with lotsa power-sucking ECL. Pfizer eventually bought this IIRC. Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 29 17:29:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:29:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <200506290100.SAA14458@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 28, 5 06:00:04 pm Message-ID: > That's exactly my point! I'm not risking my unusual hardware on my > inexperience, and I don't think that you should imply others should either > (which is how the original post came across). If he doesn't know how to > re-key a lock, and I know I sure don't, then he should get expert help if > the machine means something to him. Ergo, the locksmith. It appears to me that you consider there are 2 options : Risk the hardware by doing it yourself when you don't know what you are doing or get a professional to do it. There is, IMHO, a third option, and it's the one I always take. That is to learn to do the job properly yourself by practicing on non-valuable items. Even buyt things with the express intention of taking them apart, knowing you might not get them back together again. I've certainly done that. > If it was some PoC machine that I knew I could get another of, or was > busted and there was nothing to lose, then fine, I'd probably mess with > it. But I'm definitely aware of my limitations, and I don't see a learning > experience in ruining unusual hardware trying to learn to fix it (in > particular when a far better alternative to self-repair is available). I disagree that it's 'far better' to get somebody else to do it. To me the best thing is to learn something. That's one reason I play about with classic computers, of course. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 29 17:32:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:32:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <200506290137.VAA28684@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jun 28, 5 09:35:00 pm Message-ID: > > > FWIW, I do not consider myself to be anything like good enough to be > > a hacker, decent or otherwise. > > Your modesty does you credit, but-- you're nuts. If you're claiming that I'm eccentric, I'm suprised it's taken you this long to notice :-) > > The hacker spirit does not have to be expressed in software to be the > true hacker spirit. I count my father as a hacker, though I doubt he That I certainly agree with. IMHO you can be a hacker in just about any field. _BIT_ if you look at the 'how to become a hacker' web page, you'll find I meet almost none of the criteria. Oh well... > wrote a line of code in his life (his genius was for *physical* > mechanism). As you know, I'm happier with hardware (electronics and mechanical stuff) than software... I just don't think I'm good enough at anything to be a hacker. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 29 17:39:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:39:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Programming 2708's In-Reply-To: <200506290228.WAA28930@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jun 28, 5 10:02:02 pm Message-ID: > > All this talk of 2708s and how to program them makes me wonder.... > > I've got some PROMs of various sorts (mostly UV-erase, but a few 28xxx > EEPROMS). I'd like to throw together a burner. But to this end, I > find I care about things such as differences between one maker's 27512 > and another's. > > Is the sort of trouble described for the 2708 something that was worked > out of PROMs early in their existence, and for later devices I can use > pretty much any manufacturer's data sheet, or do I have to make sure I > use a reference that corresponds to the exact maker and chip I'm trying > to write? If the former, what counts as "later"? I think it got simpler later on :-) For 2716s (single-rail, anything but TI) up to 27128s (at least) you can use the non-intellent algorithm of 1 50ms programming pulse per location. The only non-stnadard voltage is Vpp (which may be 25V, 21V, or 12.5V depending on the device), which is applied throughout the programming operation, it doesn't need to be pulsed. You can program the locations in any order, you can miss out locations, just program the ones you want, etc. For 2764s (I think) up to 27512s you can use the intellegent algorithm. Here you give 1ms pulses per location (again, any order) and verify the written data (I think with Vcc raised to 6V or something like that). When the data verifies correctly, you give 4 times as many 1ms pulses to that location again. Most of the time (but don't assume this), the data is stored after a single 1ms pulse). AFAIK the manufacturer doesn't make too much differnece here. My old programmer just has a device type setting, there are no manufacturer-specific settings. It does 2716 up to 27512 and some other odd devices, I think. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 29 17:45:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:45:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: RML380Z ROM images In-Reply-To: <200506291643.JAA19513@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at Jun 29, 5 09:43:03 am Message-ID: > The mirrors most likely don't do much more than any other > surface. At the wave length used to erase EPROMS, about > the only thing that will transmit the light is quartz. > ordinary glass used for mirrors only allows a tiny > fraction to pass through. What about front-slivered mirrors? -tony From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Jun 29 18:04:56 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:04:56 -0700 Subject: Dilog boards... Message-ID: <200506291604.56801.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I was recently scanning the web for a Dilog SCSI board and stumbled across a "DLI Dilog" web site: http://www.dilog.com/unibus.html I called and chatted with Jon Klotz - who turned out to be a founder and partner of the original Dilog back in 1978. Amazingly, DLI Dilog still manufactures DILOG boards (mostly SCSI - but some serial) primarily for government accounts. As one might expect, the price of new boards is prohibitive for most of us as collectors ($2,500 or so for a SCSI Unibus or QBus board). They don't stock boards - they manufacture them from scratch when they get an order!!! They are capable of manufacturing a brand new board for every product that Dilog ever produced! Jon was great to chat with and knows a lot of interesting DEC history! I was just sorry he didn't have a stack of used boards he wanted to part with ;-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 29 18:16:21 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jun 29, 5 11:29:31 pm" Message-ID: <200506292316.QAA23432@floodgap.com> > It appears to me that you consider there are 2 options : Risk the > hardware by doing it yourself when you don't know what you are doing or > get a professional to do it. > > There is, IMHO, a third option, and it's the one I always take. That is > to learn to do the job properly yourself by practicing on non-valuable > items. Even buyt things with the express intention of taking them apart, > knowing you might not get them back together again. I've certainly done that. How does that change what I would do for *valuable* items? If I know someone out there is able to repair it better than I, and the machine means something to me, I think it would be *irresponsible* not to take advantage of that. Or should I just futz up all my weird items just because I could learn something by wrecking them? How pragmatic of you. > > If it was some PoC machine that I knew I could get another of, or was > > busted and there was nothing to lose, then fine, I'd probably mess with > > it. But I'm definitely aware of my limitations, and I don't see a learning > > experience in ruining unusual hardware trying to learn to fix it (in > > particular when a far better alternative to self-repair is available). > > I disagree that it's 'far better' to get somebody else to do it. To me > the best thing is to learn something. That's one reason I play about with > classic computers, of course. I'll be happy to remind you of this when I ruin some rare item attempting to 'learn something.' Until then, I'm calling in the cavalry. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: From Russia with E-mail Signature ------------------------------ From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 29 18:18:24 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > I disagree that it's 'far better' to get somebody else to do it. To me > the best thing is to learn something. That's one reason I play about with > classic computers, of course. Tony, One major factor that you are either ignoring or unaware of is TIME, of which you seem to have an enviable surplus. Not everyone has the TIME to learn yet another skill of dubious ultimate value. In a perfect world, sure. In reality, not. Cameron happens to be in medical school, and its amazing what he's managed to accomplish in spite of his grueling schedule. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 29 18:39:04 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Jun 29, 5 04:18:24 pm" Message-ID: <200506292339.QAA21484@floodgap.com> > Cameron happens to be in medical school, and its amazing what he's managed > to accomplish in spite of his grueling schedule. It's not (just) the fact I have residency to worry about. I'm more than happy to practise on stuff that's common or not that difficult to replace, and this is not to say that when faced with a defect, I don't try *at all* to fix it. And I've been able to get stuff working with my limited skills, and without enlisting much aid. But on the devices that mean something to me, I'm not willing to risk ending up with a dead box just so I can 'learn something' by potentially farking it up. I'd rather have someone who knows something about the device help with/do those kinds of repairs, especially if they're easily available. That's not laziness or ennui, that's pragmatism. I can learn on lesser devices. Please correct me, but what I perceived you to say loudly and clearly was that the original poster should go ahead and 'learn something' by disassembling the lock on a machine that means something to him, something that could potentially render the machine inoperable if he extracts the lock wrong, or messes up with pins, or goodness knows. He can learn to re-pin a lock with something else. An AIX server, to me, would be an expensive way to learn and it doesn't make any sense when a competent locksmith can do the job and save the machine (and he could buy a cheap lock somewhere and learn how locks work with that). Maybe AIX servers are a dime a dozen where you are, but I think I'll start with something smaller. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Eggheads unite! You have nothing to lose but your yolks. -- Adlai Stevenson From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 29 19:04:47 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RML380Z ROM images Message-ID: <200506300004.RAA19757@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> The mirrors most likely don't do much more than any other >> surface. At the wave length used to erase EPROMS, about >> the only thing that will transmit the light is quartz. >> ordinary glass used for mirrors only allows a tiny >> fraction to pass through. > >What about front-slivered mirrors? > >-tony > > Hi Tony I don't know specifically about silver ( one of the better reflectors ) but the more common reflector, aluminum, is down in the few percentiles at these wavelengths. Silver doesn't hold up well in the current atmosphere because of sulfur in the atmosphere, both man activities and natural sources. There are what are called dielectric reflectors that can get into the high 90%'s but these are for relatively narrow band widths. For all practical purposes, the higher frequency UV just doesn't reflect worth beans. I put aluminum in my EPROM eraser, more to protect the plastic from UV damage than to reflect much light. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 29 18:58:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:58:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <200506292316.QAA23432@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 29, 5 04:16:21 pm Message-ID: > > > It appears to me that you consider there are 2 options : Risk the > > hardware by doing it yourself when you don't know what you are doing or > > get a professional to do it. > > > > There is, IMHO, a third option, and it's the one I always take. That is > > to learn to do the job properly yourself by practicing on non-valuable > > items. Even buyt things with the express intention of taking them apart, > > knowing you might not get them back together again. I've certainly done that. > > How does that change what I would do for *valuable* items? If I know someone You practice on things that are similar, but not so valuable. In this case, I am sure that similar locks were used on other machines/equipment. They may even be available new. YOu fiddle with those until you know what you are doing, then you work on the rare stuff... Other examples, not all on-topic. You know, I guess, that I also repair cameras. Before striping down a screw-mount Leica (a somewhat valuable camera), I practiced on the Russian Zorki and Fed cameras, which are close copies (although nowhere near as well made). Once I could get those right _then_ I pulled the top plate of the Leica. And before working on the Synchro-Compur shutter of a large-format lens, I would practice on the similar leaf shutters in the 35mm viewfinder cameras of the 1960s that are now available for peanuts... Before trying to change a chip on a multi-layer board in a rare machine, you practice soldering and desoldering on junk PC-clone boards. > out there is able to repair it better than I, and the machine means something > to me, I think it would be *irresponsible* not to take advantage of that. I have the opposite view. I think it's irresponsible not to learn something when you have the chance... > > Or should I just futz up all my weird items just because I could learn > something by wrecking them? How pragmatic of you. 'Experience is directly proportioanl to equipment ruined' :-) More seriously, I was once lent a very rare machine (an HP95C for those who know HP calculators), much rarer than the IBM box we're talking about here. The owner knew, and fully understood, that I wanted to take it apart, and that there was a chance, albeit a slim one, that I would damage something. But that I intended to produce a full set of schemtics for the machine to help him, and other owners, repair them in the future. As it happend, I didn't do any damage, fortuantely. But the owner's attitude was that it was worth risking the machine to get this information. > I'll be happy to remind you of this when I ruin some rare item attempting to > 'learn something.' Until then, I'm calling in the cavalry. All I can say is that I've ruined enough components over the years -- including expensive and hard-to-replace ones to know that it _is_ the way to learn things. And electronic components generally can't be repaired. But mechanical bits can. Maybe you don't have the skills now, but you might well learn them later. In some ways I wish there were more people like you becuase then maybe, just maybe, somebody would pay me to fix their classics. But to he honest I'd much rather educate people to fix things themselves than do the job for them, for all the latter is likely to get me some cash... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 29 19:07:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:07:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <200506292339.QAA21484@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 29, 5 04:39:04 pm Message-ID: > But on the devices that mean something to me, I'm not willing to risk ending > up with a dead box just so I can 'learn something' by potentially farking it And that, I think, is where we differ. I _always_ want to understand what goes on inside the device. If that means risking said device, well, I'll do that. Of course I don't do things I do will do permanent damage, like cutting the tops off working ICs or hybrid modules, but I can and will take things apart. > up. I'd rather have someone who knows something about the device help with/do > those kinds of repairs, especially if they're easily available. That's not > laziness or ennui, that's pragmatism. I can learn on lesser devices. YEs, you learn on lesser devices in order to fix the rare one. > > Please correct me, but what I perceived you to say loudly and clearly was that > the original poster should go ahead and 'learn something' by disassembling > the lock on a machine that means something to him, something that could > potentially render the machine inoperable if he extracts the lock wrong, or > messes up with pins, or goodness knows. He can learn to re-pin a lock with I will admit I've never seen the machine in question, but surely this lock (a) locks the cabinent and (b) operates various contacts (microswitches?). And nothing more Function (a) is not too important in a hacker's machine room. And if all else fails, function (b) could be replaced by other switches wired correctly (and it really shouldn't be beyond anybody to work out how to do this!). Unless this lock is seriously weird, if you remove all the pins and springs, it will turn with anything that will engage with the keyway -- like a screwdriver. You could refit the lock without pins and use it like that I think. -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 29 19:31:53 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jun 30, 5 01:07:04 am" Message-ID: <200506300031.RAA22184@floodgap.com> > > But on the devices that mean something to me, I'm not willing to risk ending > > up with a dead box just so I can 'learn something' by potentially farking it > > And that, I think, is where we differ. I _always_ want to understand what > goes on inside the device. If that means risking said device, well, I'll > do that. Of course I don't do things I do will do permanent damage, like > cutting the tops off working ICs or hybrid modules, but I can and will > take things apart. On this point, we will agree to disagree. > > the lock on a machine that means something to him, something that could > > potentially render the machine inoperable if he extracts the lock wrong, or > > messes up with pins, or goodness knows. He can learn to re-pin a lock with > > I will admit I've never seen the machine in question, but surely this > lock (a) locks the cabinent and (b) operates various contacts > (microswitches?). And nothing more I don't know about his specific unit. On my ANSes, I could probably short it, and I think some of the older POWERservers might be similarly tweaked. I'd rather have the key, though. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you find a rock. --------- From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Jun 29 19:59:03 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:59:03 -0400 Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C343D7.nail3B61YIGJX@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Not everyone has the TIME to learn yet another skill of dubious ultmate > value. True. That's why not everyone can bite off everything. And every once in a while you sit back and realize what you will never get around to doing. I don't think there's any shortage of skills to learn, technologies to master, or stuff to play with. Tim. From john.seckinger at lmco.com Fri Jun 24 11:16:46 2005 From: john.seckinger at lmco.com (Seckinger, John) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:16:46 -0700 Subject: DG MV 9600C 128 MB Main Memory Assembly Language Docs Message-ID: Hi, I was wondering if anyone could point me towards any assembly language documentation for a DG MV 9600C configuration. Thanks in advance for any help. john From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Jun 24 12:10:07 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:10:07 -0700 Subject: Wang paper tape format? Message-ID: Any of the CDC machines that were multiples of 6 bits also used tapes like this. The 8th bit was start of a file or page of memory. The 7th bit indicated the start of the word - 12, 18, 24, 36 or 60 bits. Billy From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Jun 24 16:27:46 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:27:46 -0700 Subject: Computers In Movies Message-ID: Our very own Chris Garcia has an interesting article on movie computers at: http://efanzines.com/DrinkTank/DrinkTank29.pdf For those who don't know what fanzines are, I will leave that up to Chris to explain in some future issue. Billy From steerex at mindspring.com Fri Jun 24 19:48:21 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:48:21 -0000 Subject: HP CS/80 'describe' cmd result list References: <20050623210118.6415470CA568@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <426DACCE.7711FE90@mindspring.com> The codes are documented in the "CS-80 Instruction Set Programming manual". See ya, SteveRob Al Kossow wrote: > > Has anyone made a list of what is returned by the CS/80 > 'describe' command (opcode 53) on the different models > of discs? > > I think someone asked this a while ago, but I never saw > anyone reply. From steerex at mindspring.com Fri Jun 24 20:06:35 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 01:06:35 -0000 Subject: CS/80 disc geometry References: <42BB44A8.9070506@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.32.20050624085604.009b8540@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <426DB10F.E0A86A9D@mindspring.com> joe, Actually... I've set up a STD-BUS system to boot from a CS80 disk. It just uses the "Cold Boot Load" command to read the beginning of the disk. I have not had the opportunity / ambition to build the entire file system (yet). That's on the to-do list. BTW: I have used a HP-IB bus analyzer to read the "describe" codes from disks and didn't have any problem decoding the data. The codes are simple (REF: CS-80 Programming manual) the process is fairly demanding. SteveRob "Joe R." wrote: > > At 07:40 PM 6/23/05 -0700, you wrote: > >So what would it take to kick off a CS/80 simulator > >project for Linux or NetBSD - or even Solaris ? > > If I'm not mistaken Steve Robertson already has a CS-80 simulator > running. He built it out of a STD-bus system! > > Joe From bv at norbionics.com Sat Jun 25 14:46:11 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:46:11 -0400 Subject: Commodore 1084 video monitor Message-ID: My wife is trying to free up some space, and wants to sell her Commodore 1084 monitor. She is not into computer collecting, and has used it as a display for her video camera. It is manufactured in october, 1989. Serial number is XT 1070699. It is a nice little monitor for composite or s-video. The digital rgb is not all that great, but I suppose that is a natural consequence of the standard. My wife only used it with her previous video camera, so I do not think it has logged all that many hours. In any case, she bet it was easier for her to sell it on eBay, but I was allowed to tell the list and solicit offers. We are in Pennsylvania right now. -- -bv From jdavis at soupwizard.com Mon Jun 27 01:19:34 2005 From: jdavis at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:19:34 -0700 Subject: IBM Powerstation Progress! In-Reply-To: <200506240551.BAA15518@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200506221641.JAA15030@clulw009.amd.com> <200506240021.00381.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200506240551.BAA15518@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <42BF9A76.4000603@soupwizard.com> Thanks for all the suggestions about the IBM Powerstations and AIX. I dragged my new collection out this weekend and was able to hack the boxes open and get the serial consoles working!. Luckily one of them (a 7011-250, forgot I had that one) had the lock left in Service - with that I was able to verify a working serial connection. Things progressed quickly after that. Using a screwdriver I pried the lid open on one of the locked (Normal key setting) Powerstation 7012-370's, was able to get the lid off and disassemble the lock and turn the switch to Service with a screwdriver. All with no permanent damage to the case or lock! I then could boot off an external plextor cdrom with the diagnostics disk, and verify things work. Btw, I was able to copy the IBM diagnostics disk with Nero; will try next to see if I can make a standard ISO image of the diagnostic cdrom using my freebsd box. So far I have one 250 with 48MB ram, a 370 with 64MB ram (one 8 x 8MB board), and a 360 with 128MB (two 8 x 8MB boards). Next step is to get AIX 4.3.3 install cdroms and reinstall everything. Oh, and find out what's in the other three 7012-370 boxes I have. With those I'll document, with photos, the "Breaking and Entering Into, and Hotwiring, a 7012-300 Series Box" saga. Thanks, Jeff From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Mon Jun 27 10:00:30 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:00:30 -0500 Subject: Goodies... offered here before E-Bay Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F260C0C@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> What PSU bits for the 11/34 do you have? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of R. D. Davis Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 5:55 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Goodies... offered here before E-Bay Before I e-bay the following items, I'm posting a list here in case anyone's interested in making a reasonable offer or trade. Items are located in western Baltimore County, Maryland. *** Local pick-up only, unless someone makes it very worth my while *** *** to ship these items. *** - Tektronix 4014 terminal. I may have some additional Tektronix-terminal goodies, such as manuals and tapes, but for a different terminal. Shipping this isn't trivial or inexpensive... it cost me well over $100 to have this shipped here years ago. - Over 100 Sun VME-bus boards - Dual expansion chasis with power supply for a Q-bus PDP-11 or VAX - *Possibly* a spare RL02 drive - CRT from an old DuMont oscilloscope - Large drawer for a 19" rack mount chasis... may need some additional hardware, but I may have it all, will look. - Parts of a PDP-11/34A (front panel, boards, power-supply bits) - Umax flat-bed SCSI scanner... doesn't work, but should be good for parts - 17" older HP monitor... very heavy. Notes: Tektronix 4014 terminal: Appears to need an HV PSU repair. Caveat: I began disassembling this several years ago for cleaning and lost some screws that attach the power supply to the chassis. Also, I misplaced my notes about what wires connect where. Although that enormous power supply heat sink is looking very tempting for an audio amplifier project, I'll try to avoid the temptation in the interest of preservation. Sun VME-bus boards: these include several possibly rare boards such as fiber-optic network boards, cable modems, color printer board, etc. Finally, all of these boards are accessible and I've cleaned them up, so AFAIK, there are no spiders, etc. hiding on them. It's my preference to have someone collect them all at once so that I don't have to ship one here and there, etc. Of course, make it very worth my while and I'll consider doing that. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2005 R.D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: an All Rights Reserved unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 other creatures, using dogma to justify such Help to save the wild horses! beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Mon Jun 27 10:04:57 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:04:57 -0500 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F260C14@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> This, my friends, is truly, truly hilarious and awesome... "Digital VAX 6320 PC, approx 5.5 ft high 4 foot deep and 3 foot wide, needs 3 phase mains to operate."" A PC that runs on 3 phase...nothing personal about that, LOL! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Williams Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 1:53 PM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay Anyone got some space and 3 phase ? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5211 981884 Dan From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Mon Jun 27 12:24:09 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:24:09 -0500 Subject: Straight-8 on eBay Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F260D1B@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Oh-ho-ho, that thing is schweet. A very beautiful machine, and complete it seems! Though I much prefer the 1970s style -8s myself. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred N. van Kempen Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 5:27 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Straight-8 on eBay On Sun, 26 Jun 2005, vrs wrote: > Anyone want to ship this thing across the USA for me :-)? Looks like a > beauty! > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5213265 141&rd=1 OMG, that thing is beautiful...... --f From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Jun 27 23:07:58 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:07:58 -0700 Subject: Computers In Movies Message-ID: Our very own Chris Garcia has an interesting article on movie computers at: http://efanzines.com/DrinkTank/DrinkTank29.pdf For those who don't know what fanzines are, I will leave that up to Chris to explain in some future issue. Billy From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Jun 28 19:21:33 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:21:33 -0700 Subject: Computers In Movies Message-ID: Our very own Chris Garcia has an interesting article on movie computers at: http://efanzines.com/DrinkTank/DrinkTank29.pdf For those who don't know what fanzines are, I will leave that up to Chris to explain in some future issue. Billy From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Jun 28 19:23:56 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:23:56 -0700 Subject: Wnag paper tape format? Message-ID: Any of the CDC machines that were multiples of 6 bits also used tapes like this. The 8th bit was start of a file or page of memory. The 7th bit indicated the start of the word - 12, 18, 24, 36 or 60 bits. Billy From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Jun 28 19:28:42 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:28:42 -0700 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) Message-ID: > Has anyone built a floppy drive from scratch? Without salvaging > any mechanical parts or heads from an existing floppy? I'm > assuming that electronic processing is not a problem (in > principle) for either floppy disks or CDROMs/DVDROMs. Yes, in the early days at of floppies, CDC reversed engineered by using "brassboards" and hand made heads on a lead screw. Primitive but very stable and we were able to read and write. Whole assembly weighed about 100 pounds so it wasn't anything you could sell. But it did the job. And was pretty easy to build using off the shelf components. Floppy media being contact recording saves most of the grief you get when trying to recover hard drive data. Tony Duell wrote: Another possibiliy is to assume that some (non-working) drives are still around, how hard would it be to get them working again. For both the CD-ROM and the floppy, I think all parts other than the head/laser pickup could be made in a good home workshop (Note, I am not claiming _I_ could do it, at least not yet). Now the winding on a floppy drive head could corrode and go open-circuit (this is a problem on some types of recording head, I am told it was due to acid from the fingers of the people who handled the wire when they were being wound). But I would think the semiconductor laser and photodiodes in a CD pickup was much more likely to fail with time. GIven the head, I think the electronics would be doable. The floppy drive would probably be easier, if only because all floppy heads used much the same read chain, so if you could find data on any floppy drive you could probably make something that would work. And if you get it wrong, you are not likely to damage the head. Whereas the CD pickup is a more complicated device to drive, if you get the laser current wrong it'll either not work (current too low) or not work ever again (current too high). And every manufacturer did his own thing, so you are not likely to be able to find a published circuit that will work. -tony Another possibility to consider is that technology might offer new tools. Some of the magnetic field imaging tools we use in the hard drive industry could easily give a visual image of every bit on a floppy. (Those old bits are so big that we could write several sectors into them now.) It would be extremely tedious to go from an image to data, but it is possible. One of the big problems would be understanding and translating all the different formats. The early 8 inch single sided drives used a variety of recording formats: FM, MFM, missing clock, etc. On this new technology to recover old - has anyone on this list been following the work being done on recovering sound from very old wax recordings using a laser? I saw a fascinating description of it in one of the IEEE pubs. They used the laser to track the path a needle would have to travel. Then converted the laser position to an analog signal to audio. Then a little DSP work to eliminate the clicks, hiss, etc. The original wax recordings were too delicate or damaged to use conventional means. The results were outstanding - one of the recordings was put up on the net for a while. I understand they are also using this laser technique to recover some of the sound tracks on the early talkies. I've also read recently about recovering very faded movie film by using short wave length laser scans, then digitise the results, and restore the original grey scale by converting the relative amplitudes. I haven't seen any of the results of this yet. Has anyone on the list seen these restorations? Billy From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Jun 28 19:41:08 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:41:08 -0700 Subject: My classiccmp non-retirement :-) Message-ID: Jerome Fine wrote: Almost everyone seems to expect that neither a CD-R nor a DVD-R (i.e. the backup media we make for ourselves in single digit numbers) will last less than 20 years and probably less than 10 years. I can't think of any media that might be more reliable. Count me as one does expect CD media, R or stamped, to last longer than 20 years. There will be outlying quality problems from many vendors and for a variety of reasons. But the basic technology yields media that should be good for multiples of 20 years. I've been in the labs in Eindhoven where they can still read some of the original CD prototypes from the mid-70's. As to your second point, about more reliable media: My CDC 160-A still reads some paper tapes that I made in 1963. And I have no trouble playing some of my grandfather's old 78's from the early '30's. A friend in Atlanta has been copying over old wire recordings from the 30-40s time frame. And of course, movies go back into the teens. The point is it is not the media that is always the problem. Sometimes the application sucks. Sometimes the industry use sucks. Everyone has horror stories. Let me add another. Most of the weather data collected from the early satellites has been lost by simple carelessness in storing. Data that would help immensely in building weather models was slowly and very expensively gathered for decades. Then stored in such lousy environments that many of the tapes exist only in a powder form. Decades of data useless because of mickey mouse budget cuts. Millions to gather the data, but pennies to store it. Sellam had the only answer I know: Constantly update your data to the latest media. You normally gain performance, smaller physical size, and greater reliability. And it is faster each iteration. Of course it is expensive and time consuming. But think about the path that many on this list have already taken: paper tape to cards to magnetic tape to hard disks (several generations) to CDs to DVDs to Blu Ray? All of my 160-A software would easily fit on a digital camera memory stick. Billy From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jun 29 22:07:45 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:07:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computers In Movies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Billy Pettit wrote: > Our very own Chris Garcia has an interesting article on movie computers at: > > http://efanzines.com/DrinkTank/DrinkTank29.pdf I've collected images from a bunch of movies and TV programs which used pieces of the SAGE (AN/FSQ-7) computer as props: http://sturgeon.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Wed Jun 29 22:34:44 2005 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:34:44 -0400 Subject: Washington Post article on Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <003001c57ca2$9d2cc3f0$0b01a8c0@Mike> References: <003001c57ca2$9d2cc3f0$0b01a8c0@Mike> Message-ID: <42C36854.8020804@verizon.net> Yeah, the article was great! It was well taken here. Someone who knows me asked about it. I was proud to mention that I sent it to the list, and knew a few folks mentioned. We had a nice walk down memory lane. When is VCF East coming to DC?!?! Eric Michael Nadeau wrote: >>Sweet plug!! :) >> >> >>>How much would his Apple sell for? He isn't sure. >>> >>>Ismail estimates no more than $300, if Ballos has all the original >>>materials; author Nadeau puts it at a more modest $200. > > > I haven't seen the article, but the interview made me nervous. I had to keep > correcting him, and he was obviously angling for me to give him high prices. > I'm glad the article seems to have turned out OK. > > >>Oh well, I still have to learn that the caveats never get through the >>noise when you're talking to a reporter. I told him $300 if it's brand >>new, in the box, all the manuals, original system disks etc. >> >> >>>For now, it seems, the Apple IIc that Ballos got for Christmas in 1986 >>>is still a tad too young to be worth real money. >> >>Yeah, keep waiting. >> >>Anyway, one of the better articles on the subject I've read. Not too many >>errors and they were very minor at that. >> >>-- >> >>Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > > Festival > >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > >>International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > http://www.vintage.org > >>[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > > mputers ] > >>[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > >> > > > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jun 29 18:13:02 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:13:02 -0500 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F260C14@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F260C14@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <20050629181302.75cd5528.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:04:57 -0500 "Wolfe, Julian " wrote: > This, my friends, is truly, truly hilarious and awesome... > > "Digital VAX 6320 PC, approx 5.5 ft high 4 foot deep and 3 foot wide, > needs 3 phase mains to operate."" > > A PC that runs on 3 phase...nothing personal about that, LOL! > Naw, that could be HIGHLY personal, and an entirely self-contained system. I could, for instance, take it up a mountain to a tarpaper shack, and power it with my old Homelite generator, which has three phase output on it. All I'd need is the occasional (uh, frequent, actually) jerry can full of gas to keep it going. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jun 29 18:19:00 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:19:00 -0500 Subject: Old PS/2 Hard Drives Message-ID: <20050629181900.77342680.chenmel@earthlink.net> This past weekend I picked up an old PS/2 machine. It's a Microchannel system, a Model 65sx (I think). The only thing missing in it is the hard drive. It has one of those 3-1/2" drives with the full-length card-edge connectors on it, I think 50 pins wide or so, that provides all connections including power. I would like to get it up and running just to have around as another working system (also got a Compaq Portable III at the same auction for $10 in a leather case!). Any suggestions where I could find such a drive easily? Is this machine's HD interface an ST-506 variant, EISA, or what? Thanks. (also got six complete, loaded Ultra 5 boxes at the sale. Exciting times...) From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jun 29 18:22:57 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:22:57 -0500 Subject: RML380Z ROM images In-Reply-To: References: <200506291643.JAA19513@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050629182257.67e3b2dc.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:45:13 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > The mirrors most likely don't do much more than any other > > surface. At the wave length used to erase EPROMS, about > > the only thing that will transmit the light is quartz. > > ordinary glass used for mirrors only allows a tiny > > fraction to pass through. > > What about front-slivered mirrors? > > -tony > I was not being very clear originally. It has a 'shiny metal' interior, not real glass silvered mirrors. From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jun 29 23:27:24 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:27:24 -0400 Subject: Old PS/2 Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <20050629181900.77342680.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050629181900.77342680.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42C374AC.1020600@atarimuseum.com> As I recall, most were either internal RLL's or ESDI drives. You might be better off finding a MC SCSI adapter w/drive and going that route. Also make sure you have every driver on the 65sx diskette for all components within the unit if you decide to add/remove anything from it as you'll have to update the config for the system. Curt Scott Stevens wrote: >This past weekend I picked up an old PS/2 machine. It's a Microchannel >system, a Model 65sx (I think). The only thing missing in it is the >hard drive. It has one of those 3-1/2" drives with the full-length >card-edge connectors on it, I think 50 pins wide or so, that provides >all connections including power. > >I would like to get it up and running just to have around as another >working system (also got a Compaq Portable III at the same auction for >$10 in a leather case!). Any suggestions where I could find such a >drive easily? Is this machine's HD interface an ST-506 variant, EISA, >or what? > >Thanks. > >(also got six complete, loaded Ultra 5 boxes at the sale. Exciting >times...) > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.6/33 - Release Date: 6/28/2005 From cheri-post at web.de Thu Jun 30 01:23:10 2005 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:23:10 +0200 Subject: Dilog boards... Message-ID: <839554724@web.de> Lyle, I tried to reach someone at dilog.ch (the european branch office) to obtain a manual for the Dilog DQ3256 controller ( a very good SMD-E Controller), but unfortunately, nobody answered. I just gave it e try, as I heard, that they still sell and even produce some qbus and unibus boards. Maybe, I should write to dilog.com instead of dilog.ch? Regards, Pierre > I was recently scanning the web for a Dilog SCSI board and stumbled across a > "DLI Dilog" web site: http://www.dilog.com/unibus.html > > I called and chatted with Jon Klotz - who turned out to be a founder and > partner of the original Dilog back in 1978. Amazingly, DLI Dilog still > manufactures DILOG boards (mostly SCSI - but some serial) primarily for > government accounts. > > As one might expect, the price of new boards is prohibitive for most of us as > collectors ($2,500 or so for a SCSI Unibus or QBus board). They don't stock > boards - they manufacture them from scratch when they get an order!!! They > are capable of manufacturing a brand new board for every product that Dilog > ever produced! > > Jon was great to chat with and knows a lot of interesting DEC history! > > I was just sorry he didn't have a stack of used boards he wanted to part > with ;-) > > Cheers, > Lyle > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > Mountain View, CA > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" _________________________________________________________________________ Mit der Gruppen-SMS von WEB.DE FreeMail k?nnen Sie eine SMS an alle Freunde gleichzeitig schicken: http://freemail.web.de/features/?mc=021179 From tomj at wps.com Thu Jun 30 01:49:12 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: differential analyzer in EARTH VS. THE FLYING SAUCERS Message-ID: <20050629234644.R5814@localhost> About 1 hr in, a "computer" is used to analyze flying saucer messages. It's a Bush-style (no not our dimwit president, the MIT guy) diff analyzer! Operating! With plotter! TiVo'd it. 1956 Harryhausen movie. Haven't seen it since I was 12! From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Jun 30 02:02:59 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: differential analyzer in EARTH VS. THE FLYING SAUCERS In-Reply-To: <20050629234644.R5814@localhost> Message-ID: <20050630070259.56308.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tom Jennings wrote: > About 1 hr in, a "computer" is used to analyze > flying saucer > messages. It's a Bush-style (no not our dimwit > president, the MIT > guy) diff analyzer! Operating! With plotter! > > TiVo'd it. 1956 Harryhausen movie. Haven't seen it > since I was 12! It appears even earlier in "When Worlds Collide" (1951). --Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 02:27:43 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 02:27:43 -0500 Subject: differential analyzer in EARTH VS. THE FLYING SAUCERS In-Reply-To: <20050629234644.R5814@localhost> References: <20050629234644.R5814@localhost> Message-ID: On 6/30/05, Tom Jennings wrote: > About 1 hr in, a "computer" is used to analyze flying saucer > messages. It's a Bush-style (no not our dimwit president, the MIT > guy) diff analyzer! Operating! With plotter! With a *bogus* plotter - I don't think a real differential analyzer writes its output in cursive English. ;-) It's an early appearance of "The Hollywood Operating System". > TiVo'd it. 1956 Harryhausen movie. Haven't seen it since I was 12! Watched that just tonight. We must have been on the same channel. -ethan From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jun 30 09:00:03 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:00:03 -0700 Subject: Dilog boards... In-Reply-To: <839554724@web.de> References: <839554724@web.de> Message-ID: <200506300700.03824.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 29 June 2005 23:23, Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > Lyle, > > I tried to reach someone at dilog.ch (the european branch office) to obtain > a manual for the Dilog DQ3256 controller ( a very good SMD-E Controller), > but unfortunately, nobody answered. > > I just gave it e try, as I heard, that they still sell and even produce > some qbus and unibus boards. Maybe, I should write to dilog.com instead of > dilog.ch? > > Regards, > > Pierre > As I understand it, Dilog has shut down their European operations which IIRC were located in Switzerland. So yes, I'd contact the remaining US entity. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 30 08:59:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:59:47 -0400 Subject: DEC CAB kits Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050630095947.009c4e20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I'm starting to sort all the DEC stuff that I've been picking up the last few weeks and I've got a big pile of the CAB kits sorted out. I know that several list members wanted some of them so I've decided to to offer them to list members for $8 each plus shipping. Shipping should be $3.85 in the US. Buy as many as you want for one shipping price. If you're interested contact me directly for details. I'll pick out the best ones to send out. They should all have both cables, all the knobs, etc and appear to be in good condition. The batteries are old and probably dead but don't show any signs of leakage. If you don't need cables, let me know and I'll save the ones that do for those that need them. I picked up some of the decorative plastic panels for the DEC computers yesterday and I plan on listing them on E-bay later today. . I'll also be listing some of the other non PDP-8 DEC items on E-bay as I have time. Joe From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 30 11:30:23 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:30:23 +0000 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? Message-ID: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Has anyone here successfully interfaced a SASI device to a PC at the hardware level? I've got a few classic systems which use SASI (or not-quite-SCSI) controllers to talk to SASI-ST506 bridge boards and from there to ST506 type drives. As has been documented many times in the past here, an ST506 drive has a pretty tight relationship with its controller, and so hooking up the drive to a different controller (say MFM controller in a PC) causes all sorts of problems when it comes to backup. Hence driving the SASI side of things (and preserving the drive/bridge board relationship) would seem like a sensible move when it came to backing up data. In theory data could then be restored to a replacement drive if/when the original dies via the same method. Presumably inventing a simple SASI board to hang off a PC parallel port (say) is a lot easier than mucking around with the equivalent for floppy drives - or is the data rate still likely too low to cause timeout problems within the bridge board's firmware? I've got several Acorn, Torch and RML machines which use bridge boards and in most cases the tools needed to back up and restore data have long since vanished off the face of the earth (my RML fileserver's a particularly important one as it seems to be the only one left in the world) cheers Jules From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jun 30 11:43:32 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:43:32 -0700 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200506300943.32495.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 30 June 2005 09:30, Jules Richardson wrote: > Has anyone here successfully interfaced a SASI device to a PC at the > hardware level? I have a couple of older Alpha Micro systems that use SASI drives. I've found that early SCSI controllers (typically ISA) will work fine with SASI drives as long as you don't mix SASI with SCSI drives on the same controller. A number of early SCSI drives (typically <= 120MB) work with both SASI and SCSI controllers. Early Maxtor drives seem particularly good at this. I've found that I can replace busted SASI drives with these "early" SCSI drives quite successfully in Alpha Micro's. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Thu Jun 30 11:58:30 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:58:30 +0200 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506300943.32495.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <004601c57d94$f1700790$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Lyle Bickley" > I have a couple of older Alpha Micro systems that use SASI drives. I've found > that early SCSI controllers (typically ISA) will work fine with SASI drives > as long as you don't mix SASI with SCSI drives on the same controller. > Would that include adapters like Adaptec 1542? Nico From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 30 12:06:32 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:06:32 +0000 Subject: Someone with an RML380Z.... Message-ID: <1120151192.3791.19.camel@weka.localdomain> If you have the original 40 column board, can you take a look inside and see if the 5th IC in from the right on the top row of chips (first one in after the DRAM) is a 74LS158? All the schematics show this as being a 74LS157 but it's got an LS158 on my board (which IIRC inverts the outputs). If the schematics are wrong I'll scribble a note on the copies that I have! (I'm trying to trace a fault on my board which is resulting in corrupted screen memory, and having the schematics disagree with the actual board is annoying! :-) cheers Jules From tomj at wps.com Thu Jun 30 12:42:36 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: differential analyzer in EARTH VS. THE FLYING SAUCERS In-Reply-To: References: <20050629234644.R5814@localhost> Message-ID: <20050630103937.G5814@localhost> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/30/05, Tom Jennings wrote: >> About 1 hr in, a "computer" is used to analyze flying saucer >> messages. It's a Bush-style (no not our dimwit president, the MIT >> guy) diff analyzer! Operating! With plotter! > > With a *bogus* plotter - I don't think a real differential analyzer > writes its output in cursive English. ;-) It's an early appearance > of "The Hollywood Operating System". I think it's called "story telling" :-) It's not a whole lot worse than 'paperless office' or that still-repeated canard 'improved productivity' -- what, am I a factory?! (Did someone remove the plotter arm link from the DA, and manipulate it from off-screen? It's still pretty amusing to watch. :-) >> TiVo'd it. 1956 Harryhausen movie. Haven't seen it since I was 12! > > Watched that just tonight. We must have been on the same channel. Ayup!! From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jun 30 14:14:15 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:14:15 -0700 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: <004601c57d94$f1700790$2101a8c0@finans> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506300943.32495.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <004601c57d94$f1700790$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <200506301214.15579.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 30 June 2005 09:58, Nico de Jong wrote: > From: "Lyle Bickley" > > > I have a couple of older Alpha Micro systems that use SASI drives. I've > > found > > > that early SCSI controllers (typically ISA) will work fine with SASI > > drives > > > as long as you don't mix SASI with SCSI drives on the same controller. > > Would that include adapters like Adaptec 1542? I don't think I tried an Adaptec 1542, but I suspect it's way too "smart" to work with SASI drives. It's been a while since I used the controller, but IIRC it was an old ISA controller card like a WD7000 or Seagate ST-01/ST-02. Any early SCSI-1 controller should do - that was before SCSI became "smart" - and the messaging between the controller and the device (HDD) was minimal. A SASI device on such a controller will respond "well enough" to "look like" SCSI-1. As I said before - DO NOT mix a SASI device with a SCSI device on the same controller - or strange things can happen (don't ask). Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jun 30 09:38:25 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:38:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: References: <200506292339.QAA21484@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 29, 5 04:39:04 pm Message-ID: <16389.195.212.29.83.1120142305.squirrel@195.212.29.83> > Unless this lock is seriously weird, if you remove all the pins and > springs, it will turn with anything that will engage with the keyway -- > like a screwdriver. You could refit the lock without pins and use it like > that I think. > > -tony And furthermore, if you strip the pins out carefully, making notes and measuring them, then you will be able to put them back in exactly as they came out. Useful, if you ever get the real key. Gordon. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 30 14:45:19 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:45:19 +0000 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: <200506301214.15579.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506300943.32495.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <004601c57d94$f1700790$2101a8c0@finans> <200506301214.15579.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <1120160719.3729.31.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 12:14 -0700, Lyle Bickley wrote: > It's been a while since I used the controller, but IIRC it was an old ISA > controller card like a WD7000 or Seagate ST-01/ST-02. Any early SCSI-1 > controller should do - that was before SCSI became "smart" - and the > messaging between the controller and the device (HDD) was minimal. A SASI > device on such a controller will respond "well enough" to "look like" SCSI-1. > > As I said before - DO NOT mix a SASI device with a SCSI device on the same > controller - or strange things can happen (don't ask). Yep - far as I remember, SASI's single target only, so I expect if you have a SASI target on the same bus as a SCSI target all sorts of things would happen! :-) Most classic SASI controllers seem to be little more than a handful of buffer and latch ICs though (only about 6 chips total) - hence I was wondering if someone had chucked together something to hang off a PC parallel port (and just drive it all in software). Not especially complex - my worry would be that the SASI target would timeout on certain ops if the PC parallel port isn't quick enough though. cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 14:56:01 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:56:01 -0500 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: <1120160719.3729.31.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506300943.32495.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <004601c57d94$f1700790$2101a8c0@finans> <200506301214.15579.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <1120160719.3729.31.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On 6/30/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > Most classic SASI controllers seem to be little more than a handful of > buffer and latch ICs though (only about 6 chips total) There's a simple SASI implementation buried in the Commodore D9060/D9090 disk drives - I've done a lot of digging around those guys, but have yet to break down and completely reverse-engineer the source, so I am sketching on deep details, but essentially, the D90x0 has a "DOS board" with one 650x CPU talking IEEE-488, the other talking SASI to a Tandon(?) SASI<->ST506 board, then a Tandon TM603S or TM602S drive mech. We've done some playing around, and it's possible to, say, stick an ST225 in there and get it to format as if it were a TM602S (4 heads, 153 cyls of 32 sectors of 256 bytes). I am now getting hazy on if this works (I didn't do it myself), but it might be trivial to patch the firmware to address cylinders up to 255. My biggest concern with those drives is, of couse, the unobtanium nature of 5MB and 7.5MB ST506 drive mechs. I've always wanted to enhance the firmware to a) address disks as large as possible (16MB?) and b) to use a more available medium than ST506 drives. So if anyone learns more about how SASI interoperates with ancient SCSI drives, I'd love to hear about it. -ethan From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jun 30 14:57:05 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:57:05 -0500 Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <16389.195.212.29.83.1120142305.squirrel@195.212.29.83> References: <200506292339.QAA21484@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 29, 5 04:39:04 pm <16389.195.212.29.83.1120142305.squirrel@195.212.29.83> Message-ID: <42C44E91.204@mdrconsult.com> gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: >>Unless this lock is seriously weird, if you remove all the pins and >>springs, it will turn with anything that will engage with the keyway -- >>like a screwdriver. You could refit the lock without pins and use it like >>that I think. >> >>-tony > > > And furthermore, if you strip the pins out carefully, making notes and > measuring them, then you will be able to put them back in exactly as they > came out. Useful, if you ever get the real key. For values of probability that boggle the imagination.... Doc From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Jun 30 15:03:07 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: <200506301214.15579.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506300943.32495.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <004601c57d94$f1700790$2101a8c0@finans> <200506301214.15579.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Lyle Bickley wrote: > As I said before - DO NOT mix a SASI device with a SCSI device on the same > controller - or strange things can happen (don't ask). I have a SASI controller for an Apple II Sider hard drive, and have found clues on the web that say older SCSI drives like the Seagate ST-225N should work with it. Does that sound reasonable? What other make/model SCSI drives would be likely to work? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jun 30 15:17:27 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:17:27 -0400 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? Message-ID: <0IIW0018HYYVDCZ3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: SASI device <-> PC ? > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:45:19 +0000 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 12:14 -0700, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> It's been a while since I used the controller, but IIRC it was an old ISA >> controller card like a WD7000 or Seagate ST-01/ST-02. Any early SCSI-1 >> controller should do - that was before SCSI became "smart" - and the >> messaging between the controller and the device (HDD) was minimal. A SASI >> device on such a controller will respond "well enough" to "look like" SCSI-1. >> >> As I said before - DO NOT mix a SASI device with a SCSI device on the same >> controller - or strange things can happen (don't ask). > >Yep - far as I remember, SASI's single target only, so I expect if you >have a SASI target on the same bus as a SCSI target all sorts of things >would happen! :-) > >Most classic SASI controllers seem to be little more than a handful of >buffer and latch ICs though (only about 6 chips total) - hence I was >wondering if someone had chucked together something to hang off a PC >parallel port (and just drive it all in software). Not especially >complex - my worry would be that the SASI target would timeout on >certain ops if the PC parallel port isn't quick enough though. > >cheers > >Jules The deal is that SASI is almost SCSI.. the differences are very small at the hardware level (interface). However the protocal and instruction set of the SASI bridge controllers is different from SCSI. That difference in instructions and protocal does not allow for mixing the two nor simple substitution of one for the other. SCSI was not standardized till the late 80s so there are a number of SASI/SCSI devices that predate the widespread acceptance of SCSI. There are a few systems that have a SCSI interface that were SASI or SCSI subset (DEC uVAX2000 for one). I've also done the reverse, used SCSI on older SASI machine but, it required a new bios to even talk to the SCSI disk. The later was due to the SCSI vs SASI bridge board (Xybec) instruction/protocal differences. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 15:16:49 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:16:49 -0500 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506300943.32495.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <004601c57d94$f1700790$2101a8c0@finans> <200506301214.15579.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On 6/30/05, Mike Loewen wrote: > I have a SASI controller for an Apple II Sider hard drive, and have > found clues on the web that say older SCSI drives like the Seagate ST-225N > should work with it. Does that sound reasonable? What other make/model > SCSI drives would be likely to work? Hmm... interesting... an ST225N might be something to try with the D90x0, but one important question... does your Sider use 512-byte blocks or 256-byte blocks? I've reformatted odd-sized blocks (528?) to 512, but never to 256 bytes... was there a way of doing that back in the old days? (I was playing with DEC hardware and kinda missed out on hanging early hard drives on 8-bit micros) -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 30 14:39:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:39:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 30, 5 04:30:23 pm Message-ID: > > > Has anyone here successfully interfaced a SASI device to a PC at the > hardware level? > > I've got a few classic systems which use SASI (or not-quite-SCSI) > controllers to talk to SASI-ST506 bridge boards and from there to ST506 > type drives. I was under the impression that SASI was sufficiently close to SCSI that a SCSI interface could talk to a SASI device given the right software. It would probably make things simpler if the SASI device and the controller were the only things on the bus. > > As has been documented many times in the past here, an ST506 drive has a > pretty tight relationship with its controller, and so hooking up the > drive to a different controller (say MFM controller in a PC) causes all > sorts of problems when it comes to backup. > > Hence driving the SASI side of things (and preserving the drive/bridge > board relationship) would seem like a sensible move when it came to > backing up data. In theory data could then be restored to a replacement > drive if/when the original dies via the same method. Agreed. > > Presumably inventing a simple SASI board to hang off a PC parallel port > (say) is a lot easier than mucking around with the equivalent for floppy > drives - or is the data rate still likely too low to cause timeout > problems within the bridge board's firmware? I am pretty sure you can drive it as slowly as you like. All the bridge boards I've seen have intenral buffer memory, certainly enough for one block. > > I've got several Acorn, Torch and RML machines which use bridge boards FWIW the Torch XXX uses a SCSI interface chip on the mainboard, and I thought the drive bus was SCSI on that machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 30 14:44:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:44:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Someone with an RML380Z.... In-Reply-To: <1120151192.3791.19.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 30, 5 05:06:32 pm Message-ID: > > > If you have the original 40 column board, can you take a look inside and > see if the 5th IC in from the right on the top row of chips (first one > in after the DRAM) is a 74LS158? > > All the schematics show this as being a 74LS157 but it's got an LS158 on > my board (which IIRC inverts the outputs). My 380Z is hell to get to at the moment (there's a Philips 5200 word processor and then some bits of HP 98780A monitor chassis on top of it...). But I've looked at the schematics and the only muxes I can see are for the DRAM address. Can you confirm that this chip is one of those. If it is, then I think it doesn't matter if the output is inverted or not. The address lines to the RAM will be inverted for both reading and writing, so there'll be no problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 30 14:50:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:50:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... Message-ID: Since the 380Z seems to be popular at the moment, does anyone have info on 2 bits that are not properly described in the Information File? The first is the dual cassette controller. The pinout of the 7 pin cassette socket is given, as of course is the schematic of the VDU board that contains the cassette circuitry. The controller seems to contain a couple of relays to control the recorders (were these powered from the system 5V line or a separate power supply?) and switching to allow either one recorder to be used, or two with one used for recording the other for playback. It's possible to make some guesses as to how it was wired, but some real details would be nice The second is the SIO-2 board. This was a bit-banged serial port using, IIRC, 3 lines of the user port. 2 ouput lines for TxD and thr reader control relay, one input for RxD. At least knowing what port bits were used would be a help... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 30 14:51:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:51:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <16389.195.212.29.83.1120142305.squirrel@195.212.29.83> from "gordonjcp@gjcp.net" at Jun 30, 5 03:38:25 pm Message-ID: > And furthermore, if you strip the pins out carefully, making notes and > measuring them, then you will be able to put them back in exactly as they > came out. Useful, if you ever get the real key. Even if you don't note down the order, it's fairly easy to determine by trial and erorr if yoyu have the right key -- try each pin in the first hole until you find one that's level with the top of the plug (inner cylinder), repeat for all the other holes. -tony From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Jun 30 15:30:56 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506300943.32495.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <004601c57d94$f1700790$2101a8c0@finans> <200506301214.15579.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/30/05, Mike Loewen wrote: >> I have a SASI controller for an Apple II Sider hard drive, and have >> found clues on the web that say older SCSI drives like the Seagate ST-225N >> should work with it. Does that sound reasonable? What other make/model >> SCSI drives would be likely to work? > > Hmm... interesting... an ST225N might be something to try with the > D90x0, but one important question... does your Sider use 512-byte > blocks or 256-byte blocks? I've reformatted odd-sized blocks (528?) > to 512, but never to 256 bytes... was there a way of doing that back > in the old days? (I was playing with DEC hardware and kinda missed out > on hanging early hard drives on 8-bit micros) Good question: I don't have the Sider drive itself, just the controller. Back in the 8-bit days I couldn't afford a hard drive, so I never had the chance to play with one on an 8-bit machine. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 15:35:02 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:35:02 -0500 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On 6/30/05, Tony Duell wrote: > I was under the impression that SASI was sufficiently close to SCSI that > a SCSI interface could talk to a SASI device given the right software. It > would probably make things simpler if the SASI device and the controller > were the only things on the bus. Your postings probably crossed in the aether, but I think that's what Allison was saying - the interfaces are close, electrically (ISTR parity was new with SCSI), but there can be some incompatibilies at the command-set level. - i.e. - changing the firmware for the controller (or host) can allow one to use the other type of device from what was originally intended. To tie this in to what I was saying earlier, I've wanted to recode the firmware for the D90x0 drives for a number of years, but have never torn it apart far enough to consider reconstructing it for SCSI, plus there's the 512-byte/256-byte issue (the D90x0 instructs the SASI bridge card to format the tracks as 32 256-byte sectors rather than the more ordinary and more modern 17 512-byte sectors). That, to my level of understanding about embedded SCSI drives, is a show-stopper. -ethan From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 30 15:47:22 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:47:22 -0400 Subject: DEC M912? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050630164722.00a7fe40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Anybody know what this card is for? It's marked I/O Bus Conn Card. It's a double width card and has four rows of solder points and no handles> It's NIB. Joe From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 30 16:10:22 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:10:22 -0400 Subject: DEC M912? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050630164722.00a7fe40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050630164722.00a7fe40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42C45FBE.nailHV116DD1@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> The Book says "I/O BUS CARD, 36 PAIRS, M904 CONNECTIONS". It also says that the M904 is a "COAX CONNECTOR, 2 9-CONDUCTOR COAXES, M903 PINS". "WHERE/USED" is blank for both, but probably something to do with some 36-bit system :-). Tim. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 30 16:09:29 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:09:29 -0400 Subject: DEC M971?? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050630170929.00a83100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Anybody know what this is? It's a single width card with four resistors and a cable mounted on it. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 30 16:29:13 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:29:13 -0400 Subject: Is this a PDP-8 card? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050630172913.00a80530@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found a quad width card marked CESI VM816. It appears to be a memory card and has four rows of twelve IC sockets. The first row has 7 TMS4044-20NL ICs (4k x 1 SRAMs) in it and the second row is fully populated with the same ICs. The other rows are empty. There is an 8 position DIP switch as the end of each row of sockets. Does anyone any docs for this card or know anything about it? Joe From m_thompson at ids.net Thu Jun 30 16:34:37 2005 From: m_thompson at ids.net (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:34:37 -0400 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050630173238.04979620@155.212.1.107> Western Digital made a SASI to parallel port controller board. I used one on a CP/M system. If you could find one it would be really easy to connect one to a PC. At 12:30 PM 6/30/2005, Jules Richardson wrote: >Has anyone here successfully interfaced a SASI device to a PC at the >hardware level? > >I've got a few classic systems which use SASI (or not-quite-SCSI) >controllers to talk to SASI-ST506 bridge boards and from there to ST506 >type drives. > >As has been documented many times in the past here, an ST506 drive has a >pretty tight relationship with its controller, and so hooking up the >drive to a different controller (say MFM controller in a PC) causes all >sorts of problems when it comes to backup. > >Hence driving the SASI side of things (and preserving the drive/bridge >board relationship) would seem like a sensible move when it came to >backing up data. In theory data could then be restored to a replacement >drive if/when the original dies via the same method. > >Presumably inventing a simple SASI board to hang off a PC parallel port >(say) is a lot easier than mucking around with the equivalent for floppy >drives - or is the data rate still likely too low to cause timeout >problems within the bridge board's firmware? > >I've got several Acorn, Torch and RML machines which use bridge boards >and in most cases the tools needed to back up and restore data have long >since vanished off the face of the earth (my RML fileserver's a >particularly important one as it seems to be the only one left in the >world) > >cheers > >Jules Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson at IDS.net From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 30 16:36:32 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:36:32 -0400 Subject: DEC M971?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050630170929.00a83100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050630170929.00a83100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42C465E0.nailOS147CCL@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "H854 MTD ON SINGLE X 8.5 CARD, ACCEPTS BC08R". A BC08R is a 40 conductor ribbon cable, if I'm not mistaken. M854 is DEC speak for the 40-pin Berg header. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Jun 30 16:43:02 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:43:02 -0400 Subject: Is this a PDP-8 card? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050630172913.00a80530@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050630172913.00a80530@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42C46766.nailRU1M6XYS@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > CESI VM816. Does anyone any docs for this card? See http://www-users.itlabs.umn.edu/~lemay/computers/pdp8_cesi.html for some links. Tim. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 30 16:53:24 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:53:24 +0000 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120168404.3729.61.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 20:39 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Has anyone here successfully interfaced a SASI device to a PC at the > > hardware level? > > > > I've got a few classic systems which use SASI (or not-quite-SCSI) > > controllers to talk to SASI-ST506 bridge boards and from there to ST506 > > type drives. > > I was under the impression that SASI was sufficiently close to SCSI that > a SCSI interface could talk to a SASI device given the right software. It > would probably make things simpler if the SASI device and the controller > were the only things on the bus. Far as I recall, it misses out some of the things found in SCSI, such as multiple targets and extent reservation. I can't remember if it supports parity or not either, which might mess with some SCSI controllers that expect it. At to the software level - again from memory - it's close, but there are a few holes (ISTR there's no notion of an INQUIRY command, so any host that tries to gain knowledge of what's connected to it that way is going to get upset - this rules out the use of all Adaptec controllers that I know of which have an on-board BIOS, for instance) > > Presumably inventing a simple SASI board to hang off a PC parallel port > > (say) is a lot easier than mucking around with the equivalent for floppy > > drives - or is the data rate still likely too low to cause timeout > > problems within the bridge board's firmware? > > I am pretty sure you can drive it as slowly as you like. All the bridge > boards I've seen have intenral buffer memory, certainly enough for one > block. Yep - I think there may be a few cases where drive/controller assert a line and the 'other' thing is supposed to respond within a certain time period though; it's cases like that with the basic handshaking where I'm not sure if a PC parallel port would cope or not. For actual shifting data around I believe you're absolutely correct and it doesn't matter if it takes a second or a week between bytes... > > I've got several Acorn, Torch and RML machines which use bridge boards > > FWIW the Torch XXX uses a SCSI interface chip on the mainboard, and I > thought the drive bus was SCSI on that machine. Yep, the XXX is SCSI (NCR interface chip of some sort IIRC) - their machines which use the BBC as the I/O processor tend to be SASI though (such as the C520 'giant brown turd' machine and the 725). As well as the machines, I've got a few ex-workshop drives and so it'd be nice to save any useful data that may be on them! Actually, if I'm remembering right (without venturing into the loft and pulling lids!), the XXX typically shipped with a bridge board in it and used ST506 type drives, it just used a SCSI bridge rather than SASI (I think it was an OMTI) I have a feeling it might have been a customer option, but at the time it was possible to buy a XXX through official channels with a much larger capacity disk via the ST506 route than it was one with SCSI disk. I'd have to go back through old notes and emails to be sure! cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 30 16:58:39 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:58:39 +0000 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: <0IIW0018HYYVDCZ3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IIW0018HYYVDCZ3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1120168719.3729.67.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 16:17 -0400, Allison wrote: > The deal is that SASI is almost SCSI.. the differences are very > small at the hardware level (interface). However the protocal and > instruction set of the SASI bridge controllers is different from > SCSI. Yep, they're close but not quite. Not sure if SASI supported ten-byte commands either (probably not). To further muddy the waters, there seems to have been a time where SCSI was replacing SASI, but the SCSI Common Command Set wasn't yet ratified - so things existed that were for all intents and purposes SCSI, but left out a few commands here and there (some of the OMTI tape controllers I seem to remember are like this). Hence the reason I'd quite like a simple paralle-port type interface than going the internal ISA card route as I expect I'd find there are always going to be a few exceptions to the norm here and there that'll need to be worked around - and it'd be easier to do all the driving in user-land on a PC than messing around with hacking device drivers at any kind of OS level... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 30 17:04:40 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:04:40 +0000 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506300943.32495.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <004601c57d94$f1700790$2101a8c0@finans> <200506301214.15579.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <1120169080.3729.74.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 16:30 -0400, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > On 6/30/05, Mike Loewen wrote: > >> I have a SASI controller for an Apple II Sider hard drive, and have > >> found clues on the web that say older SCSI drives like the Seagate ST-225N > >> should work with it. Does that sound reasonable? What other make/model > >> SCSI drives would be likely to work? > > > > Hmm... interesting... an ST225N might be something to try with the > > D90x0, but one important question... does your Sider use 512-byte > > blocks or 256-byte blocks? I've reformatted odd-sized blocks (528?) > > to 512, but never to 256 bytes... was there a way of doing that back > > in the old days? (I was playing with DEC hardware and kinda missed out > > on hanging early hard drives on 8-bit micros) > > Good question: I don't have the Sider drive itself, just the > controller. Back in the 8-bit days I couldn't afford a hard drive, so I > never had the chance to play with one on an 8-bit machine. At least in the Acorn world, lack of drives that'll support 256 bytes / sector seems to be the main problem, as Acorn's SCSI controllers expect to be talking to a bridge board which is only using 256 bytes / sector. I have a hazy memory that it's possible with SCSI to do a read/write operation and *not* use the full disk block size though - on a read you just say "give me 256 bytes of block n" and on a write you supply only 256 bytes (and presumably the target pads out with zeros or something). In other words it *might* be possible to use a device formatted with 512 byte blocks and just waste the upper half of every block (no big deal given the choice of drives available now). Still might need code changes though, and of course formatting / filesystem generation tools might still have problems (and may need to be done on a more modern machine even) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 30 17:06:55 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:06:55 +0000 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050630173238.04979620@155.212.1.107> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.0.20050630173238.04979620@155.212.1.107> Message-ID: <1120169215.3729.77.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 17:34 -0400, Michael Thompson wrote: > Western Digital made a SASI to parallel port controller board. I used one > on a CP/M system. If you could find one it would be really easy to connect > one to a PC. That's exactly the sort of thing needed - although a schematic of something so that others could use the same device would be nice! I wonder if it was a simple buffer/latch interface or whether it was a complex beast with on-board memory buffers and some kind of intelligent control? Hopefully the former... cheers Jules From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Jun 30 17:13:01 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:13:01 -0700 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? References: Message-ID: <42C46E6D.7C98FB68@msm.umr.edu> The biggest problem with SASI vs SCSI is that from almost the gitgo SCSI required select plus atn (attention) to be applied and that messages be handled. The only message in SASI is the status at the end of the data phase, and it comes in whether atn is there or not. The main thing you should look for in SASI is that it can control whether ATN is applied on select, usually you will need to control this in the SASI initiator software you use for the driver. The other feature that most controllers will have that will wipe you out (potentially) is that they will read and handle message phases automatically, and do something you dont want them to. Disconnects are not allowed in SASI, and a lot of controllers would disconnect and piss off the SASI target engines. I still see a lot of gate implemented SASI adapters in bins for a $1 or two, but you would have to reverse engineer them. Also almost all SASI devices were supported in the dark ages pre open source, when everything was a trade secret and proprietary, with manuals super hard to get. Most companies mystified me by treating their engineering manuals as defense grade secrets. What possible justification does one have for not publishing how to interface to your product? Then or now. The stupidity of marketing "technical" departments astound me with this crap. Hope this helps. Jim Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Has anyone here successfully interfaced a SASI device to a PC at the > > hardware level? > > > > I've got a few classic systems which use SASI (or not-quite-SCSI) > > controllers to talk to SASI-ST506 bridge boards and from there to ST506 > > type drives. > > I was under the impression that SASI was sufficiently close to SCSI that > a SCSI interface could talk to a SASI device given the right software. It > would probably make things simpler if the SASI device and the controller > were the only things on the bus. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 30 17:27:57 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:27:57 -0400 Subject: Is this a PDP-8 card? In-Reply-To: <42C46766.nailRU1M6XYS@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050630172913.00a80530@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050630172913.00a80530@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050630182757.00a879e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Thanks Tim! I thought I'd seen a description of it but I couldn't find it. Joe At 05:43 PM 6/30/05 -0400, you wrote: >> CESI VM816. Does anyone any docs for this card? > >See > > http://www-users.itlabs.umn.edu/~lemay/computers/pdp8_cesi.html > >for some links. > >Tim. > From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jun 30 20:10:31 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:10:31 -0500 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050630201031.24e5e80e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:30:23 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > > Has anyone here successfully interfaced a SASI device to a PC at the > hardware level? > > I've got a few classic systems which use SASI (or not-quite-SCSI) > controllers to talk to SASI-ST506 bridge boards and from there to > ST506 type drives. > > As has been documented many times in the past here, an ST506 drive has > a pretty tight relationship with its controller, and so hooking up the > drive to a different controller (say MFM controller in a PC) causes > all sorts of problems when it comes to backup. > > Hence driving the SASI side of things (and preserving the drive/bridge > board relationship) would seem like a sensible move when it came to > backing up data. In theory data could then be restored to a > replacement drive if/when the original dies via the same method. > > Presumably inventing a simple SASI board to hang off a PC parallel > port(say) is a lot easier than mucking around with the equivalent for > floppy drives - or is the data rate still likely too low to cause > timeout problems within the bridge board's firmware? > Years ago, and I mean YEARS ago, I had a SASI card for the ISA bus on a PC that a friend had given me. I never had a use for it and just 'had' it for a time. This was in the mid 80's. From hachti at hachti.de Thu Jun 30 20:57:14 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 03:57:14 +0200 Subject: 14" harddrive and it's controller Message-ID: <42C4A2FA.8090807@hachti.de> Hi folks, I have made some photos of my Ampex drive and the Emulex SC02/c. They can be found here: http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/pdp11/ I urgently need help. Nothing works well at the moment. And I don't get the hardware format routine of the controller to work. Who has experience? Who has documentation? Original Emulex software? If I don't find anything I will have to scrap disk and controller - because I am very tight in space and won't store big and heavy things if they are not working... Best regards, Philipp :-) From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jun 30 21:06:04 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:06:04 -0700 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <200506301214.15579.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <200506301906.04503.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 30 June 2005 13:03, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > As I said before - DO NOT mix a SASI device with a SCSI device on the > > same controller - or strange things can happen (don't ask). > > I have a SASI controller for an Apple II Sider hard drive, and have > found clues on the web that say older SCSI drives like the Seagate ST-225N > should work with it. Does that sound reasonable? What other make/model > SCSI drives would be likely to work? I can't speak for the Apple II SASI - but I do know Alpha Micro's SASI controller will work well with many older SCSI drives (but not ALL). [IIRC, I had to jumper parity "off" in the drive.] I suspect that many of the early SCSI drives made during the transition from SASI to SCSI-1 will work O.K. with various SASI controllers. Give it a try - it certainly won't hurt anything (drive or controller) - the SASI/SCSI hardware interfaces are reasonably compatible - it's the protocol that either works for a given combo. or not. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Thu Jun 30 22:28:56 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 05:28:56 +0200 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain><200506300943.32495.lbickley@bickleywest.com><004601c57d94$f1700790$2101a8c0@finans><200506301214.15579.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <1120160719.3729.31.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <001201c57ded$03741eb0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Jules Richardson" > Most classic SASI controllers seem to be little more than a handful of > buffer and latch ICs though (only about 6 chips total) - hence I was > wondering if someone had chucked together something to hang off a PC > parallel port (and just drive it all in software). Not especially > complex - my worry would be that the SASI target would timeout on > certain ops if the PC parallel port isn't quick enough though. > I have in fact 2 converters to be placed between a PC printerport and a SCSI device. IIRC, it supports only one device. I used them _years_ ago for a killed project, where I had to read from an Archive Viper drive, IIRC. However, I dont know if the converter is stupid enough to be used with SASI Nico From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 22:51:03 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:51:03 -0400 Subject: SASI device <-> PC ? In-Reply-To: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: Maybe you can grab a plain SCSI card and write a small program to talk to SASI disks. I know there are some ISA scsi cards for tapes that are 'dumb' so that you can talk to the SCSI chip directly. I have a program that talks SCSI-1 with NCR 53C90/53C94/53C96 chips. You can easily avoid morden SCSI commands. I will be happy to share the program if somebody can help me for the copyright issue (I modified a program that I downloaded from the web. The license of that program is unknown) vax, 9000