From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 1 00:14:59 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 01:14:59 -0400 Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> I was messing around with my Amiga 2000HD today (installing a 2.04 Kickstart Rom to replace the 1.3 Kickstart among other things) and now my internal floppy is dead. The drive worked fine after I changed the rom and the HD and installed workbench 2.04, it was when I reassembled the system and rebooted I noticed the floppy was no longer working. I took the drive out and didn't notice any smell or burnt traces (as if I had the power connected backwards and it fried), any way to troubleshoot one of these things (Chinon FB-354)? Anybody happen to have one of these drives laying around they don't need? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 00:30:57 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 00:30:57 -0500 Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem In-Reply-To: <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On 7/1/05, Teo Zenios wrote: > I was messing around with my Amiga 2000HD today (installing a 2.04 Kickstart > Rom to replace the 1.3 Kickstart among other things) and now my internal > floppy is dead. The drive worked fine after I changed the rom and the HD and > installed workbench 2.04, it was when I reassembled the system and rebooted > I noticed the floppy was no longer working. I took the drive out and didn't > notice any smell or burnt traces (as if I had the power connected backwards > and it fried), any way to troubleshoot one of these things (Chinon FB-354)? Hmm... given that there isn't _one_ FDC chip - perhaps you could check your 8520s? Those control the floppy digital signals (presuming your problem is that the drive doesn't light up, as opposed to a spinning floppy that won't read - that can be analog electronics or Paula). You could remove the drive, check carefully for shorts so you don't fry another machine, and try it on another machine (as DF1, to be most helpful). I'd also make sure you didn't dislodge the DF1 jumper on the motherboard - the A2000 is quirky in how it supports drive selects and internal/external drive numbers. This shouldn't affect DF0, but it _will_ affect DF1. I guess I should have asked first - you do have the schematics, don't you? They are at the back of the Tech Ref manual if nowhere else (for pre-v6 mobos - not sure where to find late-model schematics). I guess the point is - determine if it's the Amiga or the floppy drive first. As for troubleshooting the drive itself, I don't know that a) there's enough information to successfully poke around in the innards, or b) you'd be able to find parts to fix if it you could. From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 1 00:45:25 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 01:45:25 -0400 Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <012e01c57e00$149d2570$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 1:30 AM Subject: Re: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem > On 7/1/05, Teo Zenios wrote: > > I was messing around with my Amiga 2000HD today (installing a 2.04 Kickstart > > Rom to replace the 1.3 Kickstart among other things) and now my internal > > floppy is dead. The drive worked fine after I changed the rom and the HD and > > installed workbench 2.04, it was when I reassembled the system and rebooted > > I noticed the floppy was no longer working. I took the drive out and didn't > > notice any smell or burnt traces (as if I had the power connected backwards > > and it fried), any way to troubleshoot one of these things (Chinon FB-354)? > > Hmm... given that there isn't _one_ FDC chip - perhaps you could check > your 8520s? Those control the floppy digital signals (presuming your > problem is that the drive doesn't light up, as opposed to a spinning > floppy that won't read - that can be analog electronics or Paula). > > You could remove the drive, check carefully for shorts so you don't > fry another machine, and try it on another machine (as DF1, to be most > helpful). > > I'd also make sure you didn't dislodge the DF1 jumper on the > motherboard - the A2000 is quirky in how it supports drive selects and > internal/external drive numbers. This shouldn't affect DF0, but it > _will_ affect DF1. > > I guess I should have asked first - you do have the schematics, don't > you? They are at the back of the Tech Ref manual if nowhere else (for > pre-v6 mobos - not sure where to find late-model schematics). > > I guess the point is - determine if it's the Amiga or the floppy drive > first. As for troubleshooting the drive itself, I don't know that a) > there's enough information to successfully poke around in the innards, > or b) you'd be able to find parts to fix if it you could. > The floppy does not spin up or light up, workbench shows a DF0:??? on the screen. I have an external 1011 drive that belongs with my A500 and I can boot from that drive fine. I will check the 8520's in the morning. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jul 1 04:24:03 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:24:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem In-Reply-To: <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <39292.135.196.233.27.1120209843.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > I noticed the floppy was no longer working. I took the drive out and > didn't > notice any smell or burnt traces (as if I had the power connected > backwards > and it fried), any way to troubleshoot one of these things (Chinon > FB-354)? Last time I had that problem with my A1000 I'd managed to put the floppy cable on offset by 1 pair of pins so it couldn't be seen. Easy mistake to make :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 1 05:52:35 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 10:52:35 +0000 Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem In-Reply-To: <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <1120215155.5030.2.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 01:14 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > I noticed the floppy was no longer working. I took the drive out and didn't > notice any smell or burnt traces (as if I had the power connected backwards > and it fried), any way to troubleshoot one of these things (Chinon FB-354)? 3.5" drive presumably... Check solder joints for the power connector - the power connectors on most 3.5" drives are really badly designed with only the solder joints securing them; it's easy for them to break. Been there a few times... cheers Jules From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 1 09:17:51 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 09:17:51 -0500 Subject: Storage Module Device (SMD) interface spec? In-Reply-To: <42C4A2FA.8090807@hachti.de> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050701091645.0239ee80@mail.ubanproductions.com> Hello, Does anyone have a good SMD interface specification document? --tnx --tom From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 1 10:11:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:11:37 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120230697.5030.54.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 20:50 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > Since the 380Z seems to be popular at the moment, does anyone have info > on 2 bits that are not properly described in the Information File? > > The first is the dual cassette controller. The pinout of the 7 pin > cassette socket is given, as of course is the schematic of the VDU board > that contains the cassette circuitry. The controller seems to contain a > couple of relays to control the recorders (were these powered from the > system 5V line or a separate power supply?) and switching to allow either > one recorder to be used, or two with one used for recording the other for > playback. It's possible to make some guesses as to how it was wired, but > some real details would be nice Hmm... the couple of references I've seen to it in RML documentation suggest that it was a 3rd party thing, rather than an RML part. They talk as though it was some standardised thing built into dual cassette drives, or possibly that there was some magic box that sat between the 380Z and a pair of standard tape drives. Either way, the impression is that it was nothing to do with RML... RML documentation is all over the darn place though - they're not particularly consistent in a lot of cases, so snippets of info tend to be splattered right across their documentation. > The second is the SIO-2 board. This was a bit-banged serial port using, > IIRC, 3 lines of the user port. 2 ouput lines for TxD and thr reader > control relay, one input for RxD. At least knowing what port bits were > used would be a help... According to the COS 3.4 Reference Manual: "Example programs for driving a 20mA or RS232 serial device via the RML SIO-2 and SIO-2B interfaces connected to the user I/O port can be found in the Option ROM listing" So that might help - if you can find it! I've just checked my pile of RML docs and I haven't got a copy of the option ROM listing :( Mind you, according to Paul Williams' site I have a few docs that aren't in this pile in front of me - so I'll go hunting in the loft in a sec as I must have some more somewhere! ;) cheers Jules From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 1 10:29:12 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:29:12 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? Message-ID: I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and saw this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 &rd=1 Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and nobody has mentioned it here??? Is everybody on vacation??? Bill From allain at panix.com Fri Jul 1 10:41:50 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:41:50 -0400 Subject: Storage Module Device (SMD) interface spec? References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050701091645.0239ee80@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <03a601c57e53$6678b820$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> The Fujitsu Eagle Engineering Manual, Chapter 7, Interface spec., always seemed rather usable to me anyway: http://www.spies.com/aek/pdf/fujitsu/B03P-4655-0001A_2351_Dec84.pdf here, rather: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/B03P-4655-0001A_2351_Dec84.pdf ... in case you don't find more... This area looks promising... http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/ THX again to Al. John A. From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 10:55:14 2005 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:55:14 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and >saw this: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 >&rd=1 > >Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and >nobody has mentioned it here??? There's no guarantee it's an Apple 1. The seller says only he can see "wires and cards" inside. Perhaps it is an Apple ][ in a wooden case? Nobody knows, and without pictures, nobody will know. My take is that the seller knows full well what it is, and is hoping people will think it is an Apple 1 (and judging by the questions at the bottom, they do). People will then drive up the price to some outrageous level. When they get it and realize it's just a //e that someone threw in a wooden case (or maybe not even anything in the Apple line), they'll get mad, but there's nothing they can do because he described it accurately ..... Cynical, yes, but most likely true :-) Rich B. From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 1 11:00:55 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:00:55 -0500 Subject: Storage Module Device (SMD) interface spec? In-Reply-To: <03a601c57e53$6678b820$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050701091645.0239ee80@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050701110018.024839d8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Thanks much John! I knew there would be something good on Al's site, but wasn't sure which doc to choose from:-) --tom At 11:41 AM 7/1/2005 -0400, you wrote: >The Fujitsu Eagle Engineering Manual, Chapter 7, Interface spec., >always seemed rather usable to me anyway: >http://www.spies.com/aek/pdf/fujitsu/B03P-4655-0001A_2351_Dec84.pdf >here, rather: >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/B03P-4655-0001A_2351_Dec84.pdf >... in case you don't find more... > >This area looks promising... http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/ >THX again to Al. > >John A. From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 1 11:01:36 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:01:36 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507011607.j61G76AC022334@keith.ezwind.net> It could be one of Vince Briel's replicas. He has sold a few in wooden cases via eBay. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Beaudry Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 11:55 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Apple _1_ on ebay??? >I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and saw >this: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=52131 >40640 >&rd=1 > >Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and >nobody has mentioned it here??? There's no guarantee it's an Apple 1. The seller says only he can see "wires and cards" inside. Perhaps it is an Apple ][ in a wooden case? Nobody knows, and without pictures, nobody will know. My take is that the seller knows full well what it is, and is hoping people will think it is an Apple 1 (and judging by the questions at the bottom, they do). People will then drive up the price to some outrageous level. When they get it and realize it's just a //e that someone threw in a wooden case (or maybe not even anything in the Apple line), they'll get mad, but there's nothing they can do because he described it accurately ..... Cynical, yes, but most likely true :-) Rich B. From allain at panix.com Fri Jul 1 10:58:00 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:58:00 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? References: Message-ID: <03b301c57e55$b4ffa560$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Two great reasons to not mention it: o The depressed price (now, anyway) makes eBay look fantastic for a collector, and half the list would have to vehemently disagree with that conclusion. o Every last person discovering this listing (except you ) would keep it a secret so as to hold the price down. It's in AZ for those listers willing to go take a look... John A. From nerdware at ctgonline.org Fri Jul 1 11:04:06 2005 From: nerdware at ctgonline.org (nerdware at ctgonline.org) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:04:06 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? Message-ID: <200507011604.j61G46U6008867@cerebus.winsite.com> If you read his answers, he's being very evasive as well. All it would take is to open the thing up and see if the mobo says "Apple Computer" on it. Unless the case is completely glued together, this is a 4-minute task. He's deliberately sidestepping the issue, probably because, as you suspect, he knows it's really nothing special. If he would verify that it's an Apple I, then there's no way he'd sell it as cheap as it's going. However, if it's just a ][e, monitor, and some homebrew breadboard thing, then his evasiveness is driving the price right up to "stupid". paul ORIGINAL MESSAGE FOLLOWS: >I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and >saw this: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 >&rd=1 > >Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and >nobody has mentioned it here??? There's no guarantee it's an Apple 1. The seller says only he can see "wires and cards" inside. Perhaps it is an Apple ][ in a wooden case? Nobody knows, and without pictures, nobody will know. My take is that the seller knows full well what it is, and is hoping people will think it is an Apple 1 (and judging by the questions at the bottom, they do). People will then drive up the price to some outrageous level. When they get it and realize it's just a //e that someone threw in a wooden case (or maybe not even anything in the Apple line), they'll get mad, but there's nothing they can do because he described it accurately ..... Cynical, yes, but most likely true :-) Rich B. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jul 1 11:05:23 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:05:23 -0500 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050701110341.0524ba00@mail> At 10:29 AM 7/1/2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 >Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and >nobody has mentioned it here??? Several visitors asked questions, and his answers continue to play coy. If someone told him that part of the auction was an Apple I worth $5,000, don't you think he'd bother to halt the auction, take a picture to show the inside of the homemade keyboard, and settle the question? - John From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 1 11:13:17 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:13:17 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507011618.j61GIfjZ022492@keith.ezwind.net> Yeah, something smells fishy... I am looking at the seller's other auctions... one is for a old (early/mid-1990s) NEC tablet computer, and he says it's "a great way to try out and play with a tablet PC" -- implying that it's a modern "Tablet PC" with the up-to-date Windows apps, etc. -- and also that in order to "not disturb the original packing, I did not test this item. I have every reason to believe it works." His other auction is for a TRS-80 Model 3, and he emphasizes that "I understand how important this item is to history." Geez, it's not an Apple 1, it's a TRS-80, ya know? :) So either he's really stupid or really a scammer. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Beaudry Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 11:55 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Apple _1_ on ebay??? >I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and saw >this: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=52131 >40640 >&rd=1 > >Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and >nobody has mentioned it here??? There's no guarantee it's an Apple 1. The seller says only he can see "wires and cards" inside. Perhaps it is an Apple ][ in a wooden case? Nobody knows, and without pictures, nobody will know. My take is that the seller knows full well what it is, and is hoping people will think it is an Apple 1 (and judging by the questions at the bottom, they do). People will then drive up the price to some outrageous level. When they get it and realize it's just a //e that someone threw in a wooden case (or maybe not even anything in the Apple line), they'll get mad, but there's nothing they can do because he described it accurately ..... Cynical, yes, but most likely true :-) Rich B. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 1 11:17:00 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:17:00 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <03b301c57e55$b4ffa560$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: > Two great reasons to not mention it: > o The depressed price (now, anyway) makes eBay > look fantastic for a collector, and half the list would have > to vehemently disagree with that conclusion. > o Every last person discovering this listing (except you ) > would keep it a secret so as to hold the price down. Believe me, I considered #2 (above). However: 1) It has been in a banner ad for five days. and 2) It has 20 bids on it including a couple of known ebay "deep pocket" bidders. My real question was whether anybody really thought it was a _1_ and what the bidding would go to if it was. For the record, I'm pretty sure that it is NOT an OSI product. The keyboard is not right for OSI. Bill From cb at mythtech.net Fri Jul 1 11:18:34 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:18:34 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? Message-ID: >My take is that the seller knows full well what it is, and is hoping >people will think it is an Apple 1 (and judging by the questions at >the bottom, they do). People will then drive up the price to some >outrageous level. When they get it and realize it's just a //e that >someone threw in a wooden case (or maybe not even anything in the >Apple line), they'll get mad, but there's nothing they can do because >he described it accurately ..... I was just writing up the exact same comment. You just type faster then me. If the guy is selling computers on ebay, he knows enough to do some googling on the items. An Apple 1 would be pretty obvious if he spent just a few minutes looking for info about the stuff in the box. Also, he mentions he looked in the box, but then didn't post pictures. He plays it up as "I just don't know what this is", and still doesn't post internal pictures. About the only reason I see for that is he knows it isn't an Apple 1, and like you said, is hoping people will bid it way up thinking they are getting a steal. Which depending on what is in that box, has already happened. $300 for an Apple IIe, even with drives and monitor is pretty high. -chris From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 1 11:48:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and > saw this: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 > &rd=1 > > Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and > nobody has mentioned it here??? > > Is everybody on vacation??? There is absolutely no evidence this is an Apple-1. If you'll notice, the seller is being unusually vague about it, neither confirming nor denying that this is an Apple-1. This is most likely on purpose. If it was an Apple-1, he'd have made the effort to check. No one is as naive and stupid as the seller makes himself out to be, especially someone with 255 feedback. The feedback responses only fuel the excitement, but if you notice, all the responses are based on completely unsubstantiated assumptions. Here's the most telling exchange: Q: STOP THIS AUCTION IMMEDIATELY!!!!! i can't let you throw away a perfect specimen such as that wooden computer. It is an original apple computer. A: I pride myself in great packing. I have great feedback from my packing. I pack with care. Whoever wins this auction will get items packed with care. WTF? Seems like a shill comment to me to further the speculation. This is a mystery grab bag auction, but the bag has a turd in it. Beware. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 1 11:55:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Two great reasons to not mention it: > > o The depressed price (now, anyway) makes eBay > > look fantastic for a collector, and half the list would have > > to vehemently disagree with that conclusion. > > o Every last person discovering this listing (except you ) > > would keep it a secret so as to hold the price down. > > Believe me, I considered #2 (above). However: > > 1) It has been in a banner ad for five days. ? > 2) It has 20 bids on it including a couple of known ebay "deep pocket" > bidders. So? It's been shown time and again that some of these deep pockets have more money than brains, so why should their interest in it be any indicator of authenticity? > My real question was whether anybody really thought it was a _1_ and > what the bidding would go to if it was. For the record, I'm pretty > sure that it is NOT an OSI product. The keyboard is not right for OSI. It has what looks to be holes drilled in a circular arrangement on the upper right-hand side, probably for a speaker mounted underneath. I've never, ever, ever seen any Apple-1 with a speaker. There are three knobs along the left side that look like potentiometers. I'm sure everyone bidding thinks it's a 1. Otherwise, why the hell would anyone pay $305 (so far) for an Apple //e unless they're stupid? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Jul 1 12:14:16 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:14:16 -0700 Subject: Any IBM POWER/AIX fans out there In-Reply-To: <200507010114.j611DsGQ065979@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507010114.j611DsGQ065979@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Even if you don't note down the order, it's fairly easy to determine by trial and erorr if yoyu have the right key -- try each pin in the first hole until you find one that's level with the top of the plug (inner cylinder), repeat for all the other holes. -tony Not so easy with the Medeco locks used on RS/6000- they need both the height of the cut and the angle of the cut to match the key. Not sure how many keys IBM used, but there are definitely more than 1. standard key ^-^^__^>, from the top | || | | Medico from the top / | \ \ / Scott Quinn From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 1 12:13:15 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:13:15 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > o Every last person discovering this listing (except you ) > > > would keep it a secret so as to hold the price down. > > > > Believe me, I considered #2 (above). However: > > > > 1) It has been in a banner ad for five days. > > ? > > > 2) It has 20 bids on it including a couple of known ebay "deep pocket" > > bidders. > > So? It's been shown time and again that some of these deep pockets have > more money than brains, so why should their interest in it be any > indicator of authenticity? No, no. you misunderstand me. My reply was in response to the don't let the "secret" out aspect of the message I quoted. I was asserting that it was not a secret and there was no potential for a bargain. Bill From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 1 12:18:25 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:18:25 +0000 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120238305.5030.91.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 09:48 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and > > saw this: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 > > &rd=1 > > > > Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and > > nobody has mentioned it here??? > > > > Is everybody on vacation??? > > There is absolutely no evidence this is an Apple-1. Far as I can tell, there's not even any evidence that it's an Apple at all. Lots of keyboards from the era of wooden-cased machines look very similar, and that photo's too small to really make anything out. I've seen some *really* bad wooden-cased computers before... :) > This is a mystery grab bag auction, but the bag has a turd in it. A wooden turd... From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 1 12:34:54 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:34:54 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <1120238305.5030.91.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200507011739.j61Hdwuw023322@keith.ezwind.net> We should start the "Darwin Pool" -- bet on how high it'll go for -- then find a real pool, and throw the buyer and seller in it. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 1:18 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Apple _1_ on ebay??? On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 09:48 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and > > saw this: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=52 > > 13140640 > > &rd=1 > > > > Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and > > nobody has mentioned it here??? > > > > Is everybody on vacation??? > > There is absolutely no evidence this is an Apple-1. Far as I can tell, there's not even any evidence that it's an Apple at all. Lots of keyboards from the era of wooden-cased machines look very similar, and that photo's too small to really make anything out. I've seen some *really* bad wooden-cased computers before... :) > This is a mystery grab bag auction, but the bag has a turd in it. A wooden turd... From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jul 1 12:47:31 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:47:31 -0700 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <200507011739.j61Hdwuw023322@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507011739.j61Hdwuw023322@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200507011047.31669.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 01 July 2005 10:34, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > We should start the "Darwin Pool" -- bet on how high it'll go for -- then > find a real pool, and throw the buyer and seller in it. > I sent the seller an email asking him to "clarify" what the board(s) looked like in the wooden box - size, shape, number, etc. As I suspected would happen, he didn't answer me. I'm in agreement with what has been stated previously - this guy is betting on folks assuming him to be ignorant - and that they'll get an Apple 1 for a song. Fat chance - this guy is a con. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 1 13:21:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > > o Every last person discovering this listing (except you ) > > > > would keep it a secret so as to hold the price down. > > > > > > Believe me, I considered #2 (above). However: > > > > > > 1) It has been in a banner ad for five days. > > > > ? > > > > > 2) It has 20 bids on it including a couple of known ebay "deep pocket" > > > bidders. > > > > So? It's been shown time and again that some of these deep pockets have > > more money than brains, so why should their interest in it be any > > indicator of authenticity? > > No, no. you misunderstand me. My reply was in response to the > don't let the "secret" out aspect of the message I quoted. I was > asserting that it was not a secret and there was no potential for > a bargain. Oh, sorry :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Jul 1 14:08:00 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 20:08:00 +0100 Subject: Anyone want any LaserJet II/III parts? Message-ID: <8a72c7834d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Hi folks, I've got a pair of Laserjet IIIs here I'm parting out - anyone want any bits? Not sure what works and what doesn't yet - I'm fairly sure that the laser assembly, fiber cable and most of the mechanics are in working order, but I need to power up and test them. Basically, tell me what part you want - bonus points if you can tell me whereabouts in the machine it fits (or which page of the Service Manual it's covered in). Yours for cost of postage, plus a few quid to cover my time. Whatever doesn't sell gets put on ebay, and whatever doesn't sell gets thrown in a skip with the next batch of electrical crap I dispose of. It's probably worth pointing out that the formatter board (and most of the other bits) will IIRC also work in a Laserjet II and most other Canon SX-engine printers. The advantage being that the LJ3 formatter will enable RET (resolution enhancement) on an LJ2. There's a big list of SX-engine machines on fixyourownprinter.com - can't remember the exact URL off hand though. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI From rcini at optonline.net Fri Jul 1 14:37:20 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:37:20 -0400 Subject: Problems using VG PROM/RAM in 8800b Message-ID: <002c01c57e74$4bd69f70$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I want to get the Turnkey Monitor running on my 8800b. I have a VG PROM/RAM board (which has 1k of RAM and an EPROM programmer) and some 2716 EPROMS. I made an adapter so I can use 2716 chips in the 2708 sockets. So far, so good. I configured the board for $C000, no RAM and all other jumpers per the default for the board with the following exceptions: (1) "Use PRESET or POC for power-on/reset jump" The defaultis for the POC signal to be connected to the reset circuitry on the VG PROM board. The other jumper option is to connect PRESET to the reset circuit on the VG PROM board. This is now set for the PRESET line to be connected to the board's POR circuit. I don't have a schematic so I don't know what this is doing exactly. (2) "Phantom generated if power-on/reset" This disables other memory boards on reset so it can respond to the CPU reset jump to location 0 (making the board an auto-start board). I cut this jumper. (3) "Jump to PROM/RAM board if power-on/reset" This causes the board to respond to the CPU jump to location 0 on RESET. I set this jumper to the equivalent of disable. With this configuration, I can't EXAMINE or DEPOSIT to/from any location. When I remove the board, the Altair responds normally, so it definitely is this board. Does anyone have any experience using this board in an Altair (or other non-Vector) system? What's a working configuration for this? Does anyone have a spare generic ROM board I can buy/trade for? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 1 14:52:04 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 15:52:04 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3.0 announcement In-Reply-To: <42C36854.8020804@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200507011957.j61Jvhdx024449@keith.ezwind.net> Given the comments below, now's a good a time to announce * tentative * plans for VCF East 3.0 next spring. As some cctalk'ers know, we've got a club here in the mid-Atlantic region called MARCH -- Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists. Yes, we know it's dorky name, but it's easy to speak and explain. We are temporarily based in a Yahoo group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ and we've got a real site under construction. Our club's first event was a kick-ass exhibit at the Trenton Computer Festival's 30th anniversary show in April. We emerged from TCF with enough confidence to ask Sellam for the right to host VCF East 3.0, and he consented. We're planning it as a one-day show sometime in March 2006. We haven't discussed an exact date, but I imagine we'll aim for the end of the month, to hopefully avoid snowfall. The venue will probably be the InfoAge Learning Center, located in Wall, N.J., by the shore. Wall is located about one hour east of Trenton, one hour north of Atlantic City, and 90 minutes south of Manhattan. By train, you can take the Amtrak from Trenton to AC, and then rent a car, or take NJ Transit from Manhattan directly to Wall. You can also fly into Newark or Philadelphia, or get a smaller plane to Trenton or AC. By car, Wall is right off of two majors highways (I-195 and the Garden State Parkway). It's the red star on the map at http://tinyurl.com/cj8kp Our club is currently forming a computer museum at InfoAge's facility. For details about InfoAge, which is extremely "under construction", see http://www.infoage.org -- we're inheriting their existing computer collection which even includes a small part of the ENIAC. Side events to our edition of VCF could include a tour of Camp Evans (the former Army radio research center which is where InfoAge is based) and a Nerd Trivia Contest. At http://www.visitmonmouth.com/tourism/attractions.asp you can find general tourist information about the region. Comments / suggestions are welcome. Better yet, if you live in the mid-Atlantic region, check out MARCH. - Evan K. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Chomko Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 11:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Washington Post article on Classic Computers Yeah, the article was great! It was well taken here. Someone who knows me asked about it. I was proud to mention that I sent it to the list, and knew a few folks mentioned. We had a nice walk down memory lane. When is VCF East coming to DC?!?! Eric Michael Nadeau wrote: >>Sweet plug!! :) >> >> >>>How much would his Apple sell for? He isn't sure. >>> >>>Ismail estimates no more than $300, if Ballos has all the original >>>materials; author Nadeau puts it at a more modest $200. > > > I haven't seen the article, but the interview made me nervous. I had > to keep correcting him, and he was obviously angling for me to give him high prices. > I'm glad the article seems to have turned out OK. > > >>Oh well, I still have to learn that the caveats never get through the >>noise when you're talking to a reporter. I told him $300 if it's >>brand new, in the box, all the manuals, original system disks etc. >> >> >>>For now, it seems, the Apple IIc that Ballos got for Christmas in >>>1986 is still a tad too young to be worth real money. >> >>Yeah, keep waiting. >> >>Anyway, one of the better articles on the subject I've read. Not too >>many errors and they were very minor at that. >> >>-- >> >>Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > > Festival > >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>---- > > ---- > >>International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > http://www.vintage.org > >>[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > > mputers ] > >>[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > >> > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 1 14:57:42 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:57:42 -0400 Subject: Picked up some core memory today! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050701155742.00a50640@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I went back to Melbourne today and looked through two pallets that have been packed up for a LONG time. On one of them I found a couple of MJ11-BY chassis. Both chassis were crammed full of core memory!! The core is a set of three cards cabled together; a G236, a G116 and a H224C. I've searched the net for information about these and one site says that it's for the PDP-8!! (I WISH!) But I don't think so. None of the cards are listed in Megans DEC Field Guide. Can someone tell me what I have here? Joe From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jul 1 15:12:36 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 15:12:36 -0500 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <1120238305.5030.91.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1120238305.5030.91.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050701151236.5cec4bb5.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:18:25 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 09:48 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > > > I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and > > > saw this: > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 > > > &rd=1 > > > > > > Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days > > > and nobody has mentioned it here??? > > > > > > Is everybody on vacation??? > > > > There is absolutely no evidence this is an Apple-1. > > Far as I can tell, there's not even any evidence that it's an Apple at > all. Lots of keyboards from the era of wooden-cased machines look very > similar, and that photo's too small to really make anything out. > Plus the fact that the 'wooden case' on an Apple I would be whatever the original owner had installed the Apple I in. The Apple 1 was sold from Apple as a bare circuit board, and you attached whatever keyboard you wanted in whatever enclosure you wanted. You could have installed it in a brushed aluminum or Bondi Blue case if you chose. Or in a gutted Lear-Siegler ADM3a case if you wanted 'prior art' on 'trade dress' for the iMac. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jul 1 15:15:52 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 15:15:52 -0500 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <200507011618.j61GIfjZ022492@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507011618.j61GIfjZ022492@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050701151552.5cc9ba50.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:13:17 -0400 "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" wrote: > Yeah, something smells fishy... I am looking at the seller's other > auctions... one is for a old (early/mid-1990s) NEC tablet computer, > and he says it's "a great way to try out and play with a tablet PC" -- > implying that it's a modern "Tablet PC" with the up-to-date Windows > apps, etc. -- and also that in order to "not disturb the original > packing, I did not test this item. I have every reason to believe it > works." His other auction is for a TRS-80 Model 3, and he emphasizes > that "I understand how important this item is to history." Geez, it's > not an Apple 1, it's a TRS-80, ya know? :) > Well, a TRS-80, if it's a model 1, and not a model 3, arguably is more important to history than an Apple 1 (though far, far more common). The Apple 1 was just one of a number of hobby circuit-board-only computers on the market at the time. The TRS-80 was one of the first big _successful_ computers people really used. From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 1 15:19:40 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:19:40 -0500 Subject: Picked up some core memory today! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050701155742.00a50640@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050701151806.02403fe8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Those were likely used with an 11/70. Each set of three cards yields 32KW of 18bit memory. --tom At 03:57 PM 7/1/2005 -0400, you wrote: > I went back to Melbourne today and looked through two pallets that have >been packed up for a LONG time. On one of them I found a couple of MJ11-BY >chassis. Both chassis were crammed full of core memory!! The core is a set >of three cards cabled together; a G236, a G116 and a H224C. I've searched >the net for information about these and one site says that it's for the >PDP-8!! (I WISH!) But I don't think so. None of the cards are listed in >Megans DEC Field Guide. Can someone tell me what I have here? > > Joe From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 1 15:45:51 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:45:51 -0700 Subject: Picked up some core memory today! Message-ID: <73417ec9f98bed427d6a4a028c506f69@bitsavers.org> I found a couple of MJ11-BY chassis. Can someone tell me what I have here? -- 11/70 core memory boxes From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 1 15:46:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <20050701151552.5cc9ba50.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Well, a TRS-80, if it's a model 1, and not a model 3, arguably is more > important to history than an Apple 1 (though far, far more common). The > Apple 1 was just one of a number of hobby circuit-board-only computers > on the market at the time. The TRS-80 was one of the first big > _successful_ computers people really used. Arguably, being the key. The Apple-1 is the predecessor to the Apple ][. which was far more successful than the TRS-80 line, though it was successful in its own right. The significance of the Apple-1 in April 1976 was that, nothwithstanding the Sol-20, it was pretty much everything you needed to get going with a computer. It integrated the CPU, video interface, and had BASIC in ROM. You did have to add the other half of the power supply (transformers) and a keyboard, but otherwise it was a complete computer on a single board. This was significant for the day. Most other computers of the era required you to buy a whole bunch of pieces of hardware and somehow figure out how to put it all together and make it work. The Apple ][ was really just a refined Apple 1 but with important enhancements (graphics being one) and everything that a consumer computer should've been. The Apple ][ came to market in the spring of 1977. The TRS-80 came out later in the fall of that year. There was nothing the first TRS-80 was that the Apple ][ wasn't. In terms of capability, the TRS-80 was somewhere between the Apple-1 and ][. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 1 16:01:17 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:01:17 -0400 Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> <1120215155.5030.2.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <011c01c57e80$06801c60$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 6:52 AM Subject: Re: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem > On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 01:14 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > > I noticed the floppy was no longer working. I took the drive out and didn't > > notice any smell or burnt traces (as if I had the power connected backwards > > and it fried), any way to troubleshoot one of these things (Chinon FB-354)? > > 3.5" drive presumably... > > Check solder joints for the power connector - the power connectors on > most 3.5" drives are really badly designed with only the solder joints > securing them; it's easy for them to break. Been there a few times... > > cheers > > Jules > I will try that next From ICS at Core.com Fri Jul 1 16:13:17 2005 From: ICS at Core.com (George Wiegand) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:13:17 -0400 Subject: 14" harddrive and it's controller References: <42C4A2FA.8090807@hachti.de> Message-ID: <010201c57e81$b4298cb0$8a84efd1@ics63szde1vn50> Well, what ever happens, don't scrap the drive, someone should appreciate it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philipp Hachtmann" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 9:57 PM Subject: 14" harddrive and it's controller > Hi folks, > > I have made some photos of my Ampex drive and the Emulex SC02/c. > > They can be found here: > http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/pdp11/ > > I urgently need help. Nothing works well at the moment. And I don't get > the hardware format routine of the controller to work. > > Who has experience? Who has documentation? Original Emulex software? If > I don't find anything I will have to scrap disk and controller - because > I am very tight in space and won't store big and heavy things if they > are not working... > > > Best regards, > > Philipp :-) > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm > From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 1 16:14:08 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:14:08 -0400 Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <012901c57e81$d245fc10$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 1:30 AM Subject: Re: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem > On 7/1/05, Teo Zenios wrote: > > I was messing around with my Amiga 2000HD today (installing a 2.04 Kickstart > > Rom to replace the 1.3 Kickstart among other things) and now my internal > > floppy is dead. The drive worked fine after I changed the rom and the HD and > > installed workbench 2.04, it was when I reassembled the system and rebooted > > I noticed the floppy was no longer working. I took the drive out and didn't > > notice any smell or burnt traces (as if I had the power connected backwards > > and it fried), any way to troubleshoot one of these things (Chinon FB-354)? > > Hmm... given that there isn't _one_ FDC chip - perhaps you could check > your 8520s? Those control the floppy digital signals (presuming your > problem is that the drive doesn't light up, as opposed to a spinning > floppy that won't read - that can be analog electronics or Paula). > > You could remove the drive, check carefully for shorts so you don't > fry another machine, and try it on another machine (as DF1, to be most > helpful). > > I'd also make sure you didn't dislodge the DF1 jumper on the > motherboard - the A2000 is quirky in how it supports drive selects and > internal/external drive numbers. This shouldn't affect DF0, but it > _will_ affect DF1. > > I guess I should have asked first - you do have the schematics, don't > you? They are at the back of the Tech Ref manual if nowhere else (for > pre-v6 mobos - not sure where to find late-model schematics). > > I guess the point is - determine if it's the Amiga or the floppy drive > first. As for troubleshooting the drive itself, I don't know that a) > there's enough information to successfully poke around in the innards, > or b) you'd be able to find parts to fix if it you could. > Jumper 301 is still in the open position (for a single drive). The two 8520's looked ok (nothing shorting pins together or stuff like that, no signs of overheating). I swapped the 2 chips around and still have the same result (external Df2: works while the internal DF0: is dead). I checked the floppy cable and didn't see anything out of the ordinary (except a pin in what looks like position 2 of the cable but I think that is a key, since the motherboard does not look like it has a broken pin on it). At this point I think it either the floppy cable has a bad line, or the drive is just dead. Since the amiga cable does not look like a standard floppy cable I think I will try setting the drive for Df1: and shorting Jumper 301 to see if its recognized at all. I did some research and quite a few older DD 3.5" PC drives can be jumpered to Amiga mode (ofcourse I don't have any on the list). From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jul 1 16:21:04 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 22:21:04 +0100 Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C5B3C0.6030202@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>And furthermore, if you strip the pins out carefully, making notes and >>measuring them, then you will be able to put them back in exactly as they >>came out. Useful, if you ever get the real key. > > > Even if you don't note down the order, it's fairly easy to determine by > trial and erorr if yoyu have the right key -- try each pin in the first > hole until you find one that's level with the top of the plug (inner > cylinder), repeat for all the other holes. > > -tony > And if you're really hardcore (Tony) then you could probably get any key that physically fitted into the lock, then make your own pins from brazing rod. Gordon. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 1 16:31:11 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:31:11 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > > > o Every last person discovering this listing (except you ) > > > > > would keep it a secret so as to hold the price down. > > > > > > > > Believe me, I considered #2 (above). However: > > > > > > > > 1) It has been in a banner ad for five days. > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > 2) It has 20 bids on it including a couple of known ebay > "deep pocket" > > > > bidders. > > > > > > So? It's been shown time and again that some of these deep > pockets have > > > more money than brains, so why should their interest in it be any > > > indicator of authenticity? > > > > No, no. you misunderstand me. My reply was in response to the > > don't let the "secret" out aspect of the message I quoted. I was > > asserting that it was not a secret and there was no potential for > > a bargain. > > Oh, sorry :) > Well, $2550! No bargain and I don't think anyone on the list was a big bidder on it. I must say that pooh-kie36 let me down... I bet that he/she would bid it to at least $5000. Now I do find myself curious as to just what's in the box. Anybody know collectrhc? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 1 16:47:56 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Medeco lock on IBM computer (was: Any IBM Power/AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <42C5B3C0.6030202@gjcp.net> References: <42C5B3C0.6030202@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20050701143808.Q19564@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > And if you're really hardcore (Tony) then you could probably get any key > that physically fitted into the lock, then make your own pins from > brazing rod. Tony is hardcore enough to mill his own key to fit the keyway; and turn pins on a lathe. Medeco locks are very difficult to pick. If you turn spool pins, with "false gates" both vertically and rotationally, they would be way harder to pick than would be reasonable for the use. Somewhere at the bottom of my biggest pile of junk, I have a Medeco lock from a front panel. It yousta be on the table behind tha Amiga; NO idea where it is now. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 1 17:14:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 15:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Well, $2550! No bargain and I don't think anyone on the list was a big > bidder on it. I must say that pooh-kie36 let me down... I bet that > he/she would bid it to at least $5000. Now I do find myself curious as > to just what's in the box. Anybody know collectrhc? I sent the "winning" bidder an e-mail asking him/her to contact me once they receive the unit so I can add their "Apple-1" to my registry. I also asked them what compelled them to bid on it. Hahahaha. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 1 17:32:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:32:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120230697.5030.54.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 1, 5 03:11:37 pm Message-ID: > > The first is the dual cassette controller. The pinout of the 7 pin [...] > Hmm... the couple of references I've seen to it in RML documentation > suggest that it was a 3rd party thing, rather than an RML part. They I didn;'t get that impression at all.... > talk as though it was some standardised thing built into dual cassette > drives, or possibly that there was some magic box that sat between the > 380Z and a pair of standard tape drives. It's certainly a box that goes between the 380Z's cassette socket and a pair of normal recorders. It also would appear (from re-reading the minimal instructions I have) that it took power from the 5V output on the cassette socket. It clearly contains a couple of relays and drivers for them (the 'motor' lines on the 7 pin DIN socket are outputs from a TTL latch chip). I assume it also cnntained switching for the audio signals depending on whether one or two recorders were used. But I don't know the details. Even a list of the front panel controls and connectors would be a start... > > Either way, the impression is that it was nothing to do with RML... I've never seen any other machine with this sort of cassette connector (in particular audio I/O and TTL level motor control lines). [Bit-banged SIO-2] > According to the COS 3.4 Reference Manual: "Example programs for driving > a 20mA or RS232 serial device via the RML SIO-2 and SIO-2B interfaces > connected to the user I/O port can be found in the Option ROM listing" > > So that might help - if you can find it! I've just checked my pile of > RML docs and I haven't got a copy of the option ROM listing :( Incidentally, do you have the COS (monitor ROM) source listings? They were available from RML, but I didn't get them with my machine, alas. There is an example program for reading a tape from an ASR33 in the Information File. It would appear that the reader relay is controlled by output bit 1, and that RxD comes in on input bit 0. It would be logical if output bit 0 was TzD, therefore, but I wouldn't put money on it :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 1 17:37:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:37:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any IBM POWER/AIX fans out there In-Reply-To: from "Scott Quinn" at Jul 1, 5 10:14:16 am Message-ID: > > Even if you don't note down the order, it's fairly easy to determine by > trial and erorr if yoyu have the right key -- try each pin in the first > hole until you find one that's level with the top of the plug (inner > cylinder), repeat for all the other holes. > > -tony > > Not so easy with the Medeco locks used on RS/6000- they need both the > height of the cut and the angle of the cut to match the key. Not sure > how many keys IBM used, but there are definitely more than 1. > > standard key ^-^^__^>, from the top | || | | Medico from the top > / | \ \ / Oh, it's one of those... OK... It doesn't make it much harder to put the pins back. If you have a key that you _know_ should work with that set of pins, you can try the pins in the first hole in the plug until you find a pin that is (a) flush with the top of the plug and (b) rotated to the right position too. Then repeat for all the other holes. -tony From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Jul 1 18:27:38 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <200507011607.j61G76AC022334@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050701232738.19648.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> > There's no guarantee it's an Apple 1. The seller > says only he can see > "wires and cards" inside. Perhaps it is an Apple ][ > in a wooden case? > Nobody knows, and without pictures, nobody will > know. I asked the seller for some pictures "under the hood" of that machine, and was told that it had already been boxed up for shipment. I'd imagine that if the really thought it was an Apple I, he'd oblige, so it seems clear that he expected to gain more from the uninformed speculation of the potential buyers. --Bill From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 1 18:37:07 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 19:37:07 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? References: <20050701232738.19648.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000c01c57e95$cbccf140$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Maddox" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 7:27 PM Subject: RE: Apple _1_ on ebay??? > > There's no guarantee it's an Apple 1. The seller > > says only he can see > > "wires and cards" inside. Perhaps it is an Apple ][ > > in a wooden case? > > Nobody knows, and without pictures, nobody will > > know. > > I asked the seller for some pictures "under the hood" > of that machine, and was told that it had already been > boxed up for shipment. I'd imagine that if the really > thought it was an Apple I, he'd oblige, so it seems > clear that he expected to gain more from the > uninformed speculation of the potential buyers. > > --Bill > There is a sucker born every minute. Did you see the other things the winner has bid on, he must have deep pockets (Alonzo Mourning used Nikes $399, Deon Sanders sweaty Jersey $1800, NRI 832 $1713.88). I don't think this guy in Texas is going to be short on the rent if this wooden box is holding an Apple II board. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 1 18:51:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <20050701232738.19648.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, William Maddox wrote: > > There's no guarantee it's an Apple 1. The seller says only he can see > > "wires and cards" inside. Perhaps it is an Apple ][ in a wooden case? > > Nobody knows, and without pictures, nobody will know. > > I asked the seller for some pictures "under the hood" of that machine, > and was told that it had already been boxed up for shipment. I'd imagine > that if the really thought it was an Apple I, he'd oblige, so it seems > clear that he expected to gain more from the uninformed speculation of > the potential buyers. Me too, but I didn't get the courtesy of a reply. But wow, he's fast. Already has it boxed up for shipping, does he? Right. What a dick. But I gotta say, the buyer is an even bigger dick. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 1 18:57:45 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <000c01c57e95$cbccf140$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > There is a sucker born every minute. Did you see the other things the winner > has bid on, he must have deep pockets (Alonzo Mourning used Nikes $399, Deon > Sanders sweaty Jersey $1800, NRI 832 $1713.88). Maybe he just likes to smell things that were worn by big athletic black men. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Jul 1 19:13:26 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:13:26 -0700 Subject: PI/old IRIX questions Message-ID: Got my 4D/25 TG running (Thanks, Robert) with a new 3010 FPU. I have IRIX 5.3, but even in 32MB it's somewhat slow and a bit unstable. Has anyone on the list used 4.0.5 or 3.3? I have talked with someone in the area who has a set of 3.3 tapes, but I don't want to bother him if there are usability issues, and I haven't talked with anyone about 4.0.5. Is there anyone who has used these? All i've seen are screenshots and the fact that 3.3 is SysVr3+NeWS(?) and 4 is SysVr3(+some r4)+X11, and that the IDO is needed for any practical work. I have v5.3 & v6.5 Indigo2s, so I don't need it for 'serious' work, just looking for recommendations & pointers. -Scott Quinn From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jul 1 19:15:03 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 01:15:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: References: <000c01c57e95$cbccf140$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <1260.82.152.112.73.1120263303.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> There is a sucker born every minute. Did you see the other things the >> winner >> has bid on, he must have deep pockets (Alonzo Mourning used Nikes $399, >> Deon >> Sanders sweaty Jersey $1800, NRI 832 $1713.88). > > Maybe he just likes to smell things that were worn by big athletic black > men. hahaha, I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that! Also, has has been previously mentioned that wooden thing can't be an apple 1 given that the apple 1 cases I've seen have had the keyboard at the end of the board which is lengthways, and that case isn't as deep as the keyboard is wide if you see what I mean :) Also, 'cards and wires?' Congrats to the man for duping the foolish..... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jul 1 19:22:34 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 19:22:34 -0500 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C5DE4A.9090102@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Me too, but I didn't get the courtesy of a reply. But wow, he's fast. > Already has it boxed up for shipping, does he? Right. What a dick. But > I gotta say, the buyer is an even bigger dick. Umm, when I put stuff up for non-local sale, I usually pack it *before* I list it. That lets me give exact quotes on shipping. Of course, I'm usually a lot more clear on what I'm selling, too, and for $2500, I think I'd cut some tape. Doc From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jul 1 19:31:20 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 20:31:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <42C5DE4A.9090102@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: > Umm, when I put stuff up for non-local sale, I usually pack it > *before* I list it. That lets me give exact quotes on shipping. This is actually quite common amongst Ebay sellers. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 1 19:24:59 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 20:24:59 -0400 Subject: Netcom HV1148 chassis for DEC? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050701202459.00a722e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found one of these today. Nice chassis, it's obvioulsly made for DEC cards and has 12 Quad width card slots. However I don't know if it's Omnibus or what. Anybody know? Joe From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 1 19:55:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <1260.82.152.112.73.1120263303.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jul 2005, Witchy wrote: > hahaha, I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that! Also, has has been > previously mentioned that wooden thing can't be an apple 1 given that the > apple 1 cases I've seen have had the keyboard at the end of the board > which is lengthways, and that case isn't as deep as the keyboard is wide > if you see what I mean :) Also, 'cards and wires?' Congrats to the man for > duping the foolish..... Eh. I looked at that too, but I think the case has the right dimensions to accomodate the Apple-1 motherboard. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jul 1 20:09:58 2005 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 21:09:58 EDT Subject: Old PS/2 Hard Drives Message-ID: In a message dated 6/30/2005 12:22:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, chenmel at earthlink.net writes: This past weekend I picked up an old PS/2 machine. It's a Microchannel system, a Model 65sx (I think). The only thing missing in it is the hard drive. It has one of those 3-1/2" drives with the full-length card-edge connectors on it, I think 50 pins wide or so, that provides all connections including power. I would like to get it up and running just to have around as another working system (also got a Compaq Portable III at the same auction for $10 in a leather case!). Any suggestions where I could find such a drive easily? Is this machine's HD interface an ST-506 variant, EISA, or what? --------- 8565 is a 386DX-25 I think with a SCSI controller instead of ESDI that the model 60 used. Take note of what adaptor cards are installed. This machine is a floppy based reference disk instead of using an IML partition so you will need to build a reference disk with all the adf files on it. If parts are needed, I can help with whatever is needed. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 1 20:48:59 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 18:48:59 -0700 Subject: CS/80 disc gceometry In-Reply-To: <200506292118.j5TLIRAo027194@lots.reanimators.org> References: <200506291719.j5THJo9m022933@lots.reanimators.org> <0f16317bad3d6d502021f0c461bef900@bitsavers.org> <200506291913.j5TJDFWp025059@lots.reanimators.org> <200506292009.j5TK9tg7026100@lots.reanimators.org> <3d412679c56bf40d3f266a5c0e7d0621@bitsavers.org> <200506292118.j5TLIRAo027194@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <8643ddf68913cd66ec0a256c16be8a44@bitsavers.org> David Bryan pointed me to page 6-5 of www.hp.com/products1/rte/tech_support/documentation/documentation4/ 92084-90025.pdf which has the following table: model mbytes xfrRat(kbytes) #surf #cyl #secs(256by) # blocks acc time(ms) 7907A 41 600 2/unit 627 64 80,256/unit 44 7908A 16 561 5 370 35 64,750 58 7911A 27 835 3 572 64 109,824 43 7912A 64 835 7 572 64 256,256 43 7914A 132 1000 7 1152 64 516,096 41 7933/35 404 1000 13 1321 92 1,579,916 35 7936 307 1000 7 1396 123 1,202,956 31 7937 571 1000 13 1396 123 2,232,204 31 7941/42 24 625 3 968 32 92,928 48 7945/46 55 625 7 968 32 216,832 48 7957A 81 853 5 1013 63 319,095 42 7957B 81 875 4 1269 63 319,788 28 7958A 130 853 8 1013 63 510,552 42 7958B 152 875 6 1572 63 594,216 28 C2200 335 1840 8 1449 113 1,309,840 27 C2203 670 1840 16 1449 113 2,619,792 27 From drb at msu.edu Fri Jul 1 23:57:43 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 00:57:43 -0400 Subject: VT-131 prints? Message-ID: <200507020457.j624vhZa024559@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> I have a VT-131 suffering from video circuit problems. The logic seems to be ok -- does a self test, led dance, emits a normal beep, and ends with the on-line led lit. The crt filament is glowing. Key click happens when keys are pressed. No screen display. I've turned up brightness in set-up, flying blind. Haven't twiddled the pot yet. So far, I've just taken the lid off, and am looking into the still-assembled chassis. The video board has some very charred-looking spots around the solder pads of one component (cap? spherical white ceramic-like device with two stout leads) down and to the right of the brightness adjustment. The tech manuals from bitsavers and vt100.net don't give me enough info to identify the component in question. Anyone have prints they'd be willing to scan bits of for me? Or read off to me by e-mail? Or have "replace this, kid" or "you're screwed" specific knowledge of this scenario? TIA, De From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jul 2 02:50:37 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 09:50:37 +0200 Subject: PI/old IRIX questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050702095037.0f91bb08.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:13:26 -0700 Scott Quinn wrote: > Got my 4D/25 TG running (Thanks, Robert) with a new 3010 FPU. I have > IRIX 5.3, but even in 32MB it's somewhat slow and a bit unstable. Has > anyone on the list used 4.0.5 or 3.3? I instaled 3.3, 4.0.5 and 5.3 on different disks in my PI 4D35. Everything runs fine and stable. But I must admit I haven't used this machine much. Getting 3.3 on it was a bit cumbersome as I had only tape images... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Jul 2 04:22:35 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:22:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: References: <1260.82.152.112.73.1120263303.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <49275.82.152.112.73.1120296155.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > On Sat, 2 Jul 2005, Witchy wrote: > >> hahaha, I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that! Also, has has been >> previously mentioned that wooden thing can't be an apple 1 given that >> the > > Eh. I looked at that too, but I think the case has the right dimensions > to accomodate the Apple-1 motherboard. Hm, actually you could be right, it's smaller than I thought: http://torzewski.tripod.com/apple1computer/id1.html The whole thing still smacks of bogus though. If it isn't then someone's got themselves a hell of a bargain :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 04:56:37 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 05:56:37 -0400 Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem In-Reply-To: <012901c57e81$d245fc10$0500fea9@game> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> <012901c57e81$d245fc10$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On 7/1/05, Teo Zenios wrote: > Jumper 301 is still in the open position (for a single drive). Perfect. > The two 8520's looked ok (nothing shorting pins together or stuff like that, > no signs of overheating). I swapped the 2 chips around and still have the > same result (external Df2: works while the internal DF0: is dead). OK... swapping the 8520s and watching the symptoms was a pretty standard method back in the day - it's easy and it works, so that _probably_ shows your 8520s are OK. > I checked the floppy cable and didn't see anything out of the ordinary > (except a pin in what looks like position 2 of the cable but I think that is > a key, since the motherboard does not look like it has a broken pin on it). That _is_ a key (and needs to be in any Amiga hardware FAQ - I can't remember how many times we had to tell people that in our Amiga club - every novice who added an internal floppy use to call us up and ask how to "replace a broken pin"... they thought that the pin had become stuck, and they must have pulled it out when they messed with the cable. > At this point I think it either the floppy cable has a bad line, or the > drive is just dead. Since the amiga cable does not look like a standard > floppy cable I think I will try setting the drive for Df1: and shorting > Jumper 301 to see if its recognized at all. > I did some research and quite a few older DD 3.5" PC drives can be jumpered > to Amiga mode (ofcourse I don't have any on the list). And they support the /DISK-EXCHANGE signal (p 34?) That was what always hosed frugal early-adopters of the Amiga - they'd try to use a cheap floppy, and the OS wouldn't be able to step the drive in and out one track to get the drive to assert the /DISK-EXCHAGE (or whichever one it was) so that the drive could 'tell' the OS that the diskette that used to be there isn't there any more. You _can_ hook up a floppy drive that won't assert that signal, but that places a burden on the user's head to have to type an AmigaDOS command to flush the previous diskette's particulars and to cache the new diskette. -ethan From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sat Jul 2 05:30:03 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 12:30:03 +0200 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? References: <1260.82.152.112.73.1120263303.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <49275.82.152.112.73.1120296155.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <000e01c57ef1$0267c3a0$2101a8c0@finans> > > > On Sat, 2 Jul 2005, Witchy wrote: > > > >> hahaha, I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that! Also, has has been > >> previously mentioned that wooden thing can't be an apple 1 given that > >> the > > > > > Eh. I looked at that too, but I think the case has the right dimensions > > to accomodate the Apple-1 motherboard. > It could just as well be a morse sounder. That would explain the loudspeaker, and the 3 potmeters for speed, volume and ditdah relation. I guess we'll never know Nico From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jul 2 05:58:44 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 06:58:44 -0400 Subject: VT-131 prints? In-Reply-To: <200507020457.j624vhZa024559@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200507020457.j624vhZa024559@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <42C67364.nailK2H11LEW8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > The video board has some very charred-looking spots around the > solder pads of one component (cap? spherical white ceramic-like > device with two stout leads) That's the diode in the flyback. Just about every VT1xx terminal has that blackened PCB. (And has probably gone through several flyback transformers...) If you've got any other VT1xx terminal, swapping out the flyback/video stuff that's in common will verify that you're lacking HV for the CRT. Tim. From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jul 2 06:13:42 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 07:13:42 -0400 Subject: SSM V1B Manual request Message-ID: <005001c57ef7$1b309dc0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: Does anyone have a copy of the Solid State Music V1B video board manual that they'd be willing to make a scan of (or make a copy of so I can scan it)? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 2 06:56:01 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 12:56:01 +0100 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001701c57efd$05b01a60$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >Incidentally, do you have the COS (monitor ROM) source listings? They >were available from RML, but I didn't get them with my machine, alas. I'm sure I have some listings, and my vague recollection is that they were for COS. I scanned everything I have and sent it to Manx so you should be able to find it there. If none of the titles make it obvious what you want, let me know and I'll find the paper version and confirm which document you need. Antonio From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jul 2 08:01:32 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 09:01:32 -0400 Subject: SSM V1B Manual request Message-ID: <20050702130131.VLFN5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 07:13 02/07/2005 -0400, you wrote: >All: > > Does anyone have a copy of the Solid State Music V1B video board >manual that they'd be willing to make a scan of (or make a copy of so I can >scan it)? Hi Rich, If by chance you are referring to the SSM VB1B video board... I have the manual available on my site. Go to "S100 cards" near the bottom of my main page, then scroll down to the SSM section, and click the "1.4M PDF" link beside the listing for the VB1B. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jul 2 08:06:03 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 09:06:03 -0400 Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info Message-ID: <20050702130602.PLCM16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Anyone have service information on the Epson HX-20? Specifically looking for information on the LCD driver. I have an HX-20 in which the LCD has grown very dim ... appears blank from normal viewing angle, but is barely readable at very low angle... Also, anyone on the list with a working HX-20 who would be willing to open it up and take some voltage/waveform readings for me (you will need an oscilloscope)? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sat Jul 2 08:36:09 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 08:36:09 -0500 Subject: SASI vs. SCSI In-Reply-To: <200507020011.j620B53Q075696@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507020011.j620B53Q075696@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42C69849.8040209@brutman.com> I almost hate to ask the obvious, but does something have specifications for the SASI protocol? That would go a long way to answering some of the questions. There was a SASI adapter for a PCjr that went in the modem slot from a company called RIM. It had a bridge board that connected it to a Seagate MFM drive. The chipset name escapes me at the moment, but I thought it was either NCR or Zilog doing second source for NCR. It smells awfully like SCSI. (I don't have the beast - I've just seen pictures of it. But I'd love to know what makes it tick.) Mike From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 2 09:26:50 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 10:26:50 -0400 Subject: VT-131 prints? Message-ID: <0IJ0001WP83IDNIA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: VT-131 prints? > From: Dennis Boone > Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 00:57:43 -0400 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >I have a VT-131 suffering from video circuit problems. The logic >seems to be ok -- does a self test, led dance, emits a normal beep, >and ends with the on-line led lit. The crt filament is glowing. >Key click happens when keys are pressed. No screen display. >I've turned up brightness in set-up, flying blind. Haven't twiddled >the pot yet. So far, I've just taken the lid off, and am looking >into the still-assembled chassis. > >The video board has some very charred-looking spots around the solder >pads of one component (cap? spherical white ceramic-like device with >two stout leads) down and to the right of the brightness adjustment. > >The tech manuals from bitsavers and vt100.net don't give me enough >info to identify the component in question. > >Anyone have prints they'd be willing to scan bits of for me? Or read >off to me by e-mail? Or have "replace this, kid" or "you're screwed" >specific knowledge of this scenario? > >TIA, > >De Common VT1xx part failure. Seemed they made the video board with a 50V cap where a 100V cap should be. Huge numbers of them were made and failed but amazingly there are still many in use that havent.. Yet. It is repairable as it cooks a cap, diode and resistor. The Video board is common to most VT1xx. Mine are deeply burried. Allison From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jul 2 13:16:03 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 14:16:03 -0400 Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> <012901c57e81$d245fc10$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <003501c57f32$1b904820$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 5:56 AM Subject: Re: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem > On 7/1/05, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Jumper 301 is still in the open position (for a single drive). > > Perfect. > > > The two 8520's looked ok (nothing shorting pins together or stuff like that, > > no signs of overheating). I swapped the 2 chips around and still have the > > same result (external Df2: works while the internal DF0: is dead). > > OK... swapping the 8520s and watching the symptoms was a pretty > standard method back in the day - it's easy and it works, so that > _probably_ shows your 8520s are OK. > > > I checked the floppy cable and didn't see anything out of the ordinary > > (except a pin in what looks like position 2 of the cable but I think that is > > a key, since the motherboard does not look like it has a broken pin on it). > > That _is_ a key (and needs to be in any Amiga hardware FAQ - I can't > remember how many times we had to tell people that in our Amiga club - > every novice who added an internal floppy use to call us up and ask > how to "replace a broken pin"... they thought that the > pin had become stuck, and they must have pulled it out when they > messed with the cable. > > > At this point I think it either the floppy cable has a bad line, or the > > drive is just dead. Since the amiga cable does not look like a standard > > floppy cable I think I will try setting the drive for Df1: and shorting > > Jumper 301 to see if its recognized at all. > > > > I did some research and quite a few older DD 3.5" PC drives can be jumpered > > to Amiga mode (ofcourse I don't have any on the list). > > And they support the /DISK-EXCHANGE signal (p 34?) That was what > always hosed frugal early-adopters of the Amiga - they'd try to use a > cheap floppy, and the OS wouldn't be able to step the drive in and out > one track to get the drive to assert the /DISK-EXCHAGE (or whichever > one it was) so that the drive could 'tell' the OS that the diskette > that used to be there isn't there any more. > > You _can_ hook up a floppy drive that won't assert that signal, but > that places a burden on the user's head to have to type an AmigaDOS > command to flush the previous diskette's particulars and to cache the > new diskette. > > -ethan > This link shows how to modify a specific PC floppy to work perfectly on an Amiga (pin 34 goes to pin 2) http://www.caps-project.org/articles.php?id=a_v9drivemod Anyway while checking for Amiga compatible PC drives in my piles of stuff I came across a HD to floppy power connector (was stuck on a floppy drive) I decided to try it out on the Amiga. The drive works! I then checked the voltage at the old amiga power connection and it does show 5V and 12V (using a multimeter). So either there is a loose connection inside the power cable or its pinched somewhere so that under load the voltage drops enough so that the drive wont work. Anyway I kept the power adapter in place (along with a Y cable so I can power my 2GB HD) and everything works just fine for now (even with the case back on) so I am happy. I must say that with a 2.x kickstart and Workbench 2.1 this GVP 030/40 boots up one hell of allot faster then it did in its Kickstart 1.3 days. Too bad all my other machines can't go from power on to desktop in under 15 seconds (from a HD boot about 10 seconds for my A1200). Thanks for the help Ethan. From cannings at earthlink.net Sat Jul 2 13:33:25 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 11:33:25 -0700 Subject: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? References: Message-ID: <000401c57f34$88819db0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Ethan, Yes, I do. Here is the parts list you requested. Hope this helps. Best regards, Steven Canning ELL (RS 28-280) Loose Parts List Resistors: 2 - 100 Ohm 8 - 470 Ohm 12 - 1.0 K 2 - 1.5 K 2 - 2,2 K 2 - 3.3 K 5 - 4.7 K 2 - 5.6 K 2 - 6.8 K 2 - 8.2 K 2 - 9.1 K 8 - 10 K 2 - 22 K 2 - 33 K 4 - 47 K 2 - 68 K 5 - 100 K 2 - 330 K 3 - 470 K 3 - 1.0 M 3 - 10 M Caps Ceramic: 1- 33 pF 2 - 470 pF 3 - 0.001 uF 2- 0.0047 uF 5- 0.01 uF 2- 0.047 uF 3 - 0.1 uF Caps Electrolytic: 2- o.047 uF 2- 1.0 uF 2- 4.7 uF 2- 10 uF 2- 100 uF 1- 470 uF Semiconductors / ICs: 4- 1N4148 Diode 1- Zener Diode 1- Red LED 1- Green LED 1- 324 Quad Compar 2- 4011 2 In NAND 2- 4001 2 In NOR 1- 4013 FFlop 1- 4017 Dec Cntr / Decoder 1- 4046 PLLoop 1- 4049 6 Invert Buffer 1- 4046 4 Bilat Switches 1- 4029 Up / Down Cntr 1- 4511 BCD 7 Segment 1- 4070 XOR 1- 272 Dual Op Amp 1- 386 Power Amp 2- 555 Timer 1- 7805 Volt Reg 2- NPN Xsistors 2- PNP Xsistors 2- IRF630 Power MOSFETs Misc: 1 - Ceramic Earphone 40 - 5 cm White Wires 20 - 10 cm Red Wires 10 - 20 cm Blue Wires 5 - 30 cm Yellow Wires 1- 24.5 cm Red Bare Wire > Hi, > > I picked up an ELL (RS 28-280) at the outlet store. It was cheap > because all of the loose parts were missing. I have the base and the > books. The PDF file on the RS web site doesn't list things in enough > detail to be able to build a list of missing parts. I'm going through > the books and trying to tally the required parts, but it's taking > hours and I'm likely to make mistakes. > > Does anyone have one of these and might they have enough time to make > a physical inventory? Even a digital picture of the parts spread out > on a tabletop would be really helpful. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 2 15:04:22 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 20:04:22 +0000 Subject: SASI vs. SCSI In-Reply-To: <42C69849.8040209@brutman.com> References: <200507020011.j620B53Q075696@dewey.classiccmp.org> <42C69849.8040209@brutman.com> Message-ID: <1120334662.7101.20.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-07-02 at 08:36 -0500, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I almost hate to ask the obvious, but does something have specifications > for the SASI protocol? That would go a long way to answering some of > the questions. I'd quite like to see those too. I remember that one of the manuals for one of the bridge boards I have gives a really nice description of early SCSI (including timing diagrams etc.). I'll have to dig it out as it might just go into details about SASI/SCSI differences too. Most of my knowledge of SASI has been picked up from fragments here and there though (often from this list) - I've never seen a proper spec or anything (unlike for SCSI) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 2 15:17:51 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 20:17:51 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120335471.7101.31.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 23:32 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The first is the dual cassette controller. The pinout of the 7 pin > > [...] > > > Hmm... the couple of references I've seen to it in RML documentation > > suggest that it was a 3rd party thing, rather than an RML part. They > > I didn;'t get that impression at all.... I don't have any kind of docs for a tape-only system though; only ones for disk systems - which happen to describe tape procedures too. Maybe you have some different ones. It was more that I'm surprised they didn't say in the docs that it was an RML part, or avaialble from RML or whatever. The Disk Information File does mention a "Firmware reference manual" as having more info on the COS tape routines and a description of the interface - maybe that one has more details in it about the dual tape controller. It's not a document I've seen. > Incidentally, do you have the COS (monitor ROM) source listings? They > were available from RML, but I didn't get them with my machine, alas. If you can stand a PDF I think this is the one :-) http://vt100.net/rm/docs/RML_380Z_cassette_operating_system.pdf 489KB, so not too huge either :) I've brought a bunch of RML floppies home for the week from the museum, so I'll see what's on those and at least make a few backup copies. Might well be something interesting (I don't believe we've got any RML stuff on tape though) cheers Jules From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Jul 2 15:18:41 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:18:41 -0500 Subject: Testing PC controller for FM disk capability Message-ID: <42C6F6A1.3070302@mdrconsult.com> I'm setting up a YE-data 8" drive (YD-180) to use with a PC. I have a couple of candidates, as far as which computer I use, but I need to make sure that the onboard FDC will read and write FM disks. I'm assuming that if I can write an RX01 image to floppy on the PC and boot it on the PDP-11 (RX02 drive), I'm good to go? Is there a list of FDC chips known to support FM? Doc From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 15:25:41 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 15:25:41 -0500 Subject: VT-131 prints? In-Reply-To: <0IJ0001WP83IDNIA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IJ0001WP83IDNIA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 7/2/05, Allison wrote: > Common VT1xx part failure. Seemed they made the video board with a > 50V cap where a 100V cap should be. Huge numbers of them were made > and failed but amazingly there are still many in use that havent.. Yet. > It is repairable as it cooks a cap, diode and resistor. That sounds like once someone traces down the problem, it belongs in a FAQ somewhere. I haven't had any failures like that, so I guess I'd like to know more, especially to buy a bag of 100V caps and preemptively fix some of my terminals (I have stuff ranging from gen-u-ine VT100s, to VT102s, a VT103, a VT105, a DECmate I, etc., and I don't recall if I have a VT125 or VT131 or not. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 15:30:49 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 15:30:49 -0500 Subject: Netcom HV1148 chassis for DEC? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050701202459.00a722e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050701202459.00a722e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 7/1/05, Joe R. wrote: > I found one of these today. Nice chassis, it's obvioulsly made for DEC > cards and has 12 Quad width card slots. However I don't know if it's > Omnibus or what. Anybody know? A couple of minutes with a continuity tester should establish that - OMNIBUS is AA1 to AA1 on all slots, AB1 to AB1 on all slots, etc. No serpentine, no grant lines, no CD slots. It should be clear what to test if you look at an OMNIBUS pinout and compare it to a Qbus serpentine and a Qbus CD pinout. In the case of a 12-slot Qbus CD backplane, don't bother with A and B slots - except for grant pins, they are going to somewhat resemble OMNIBUS - it's the CD pins you should focus on. If AA1 is tied to CA1, that suggests Qbus sinusoidal (if AA1 - slot 1 is tied to AA1 - slot 2, that doesn't tell you much). Repeat until the nature of the backplane is revealed - probably 3-5 scientifically-selected tests should be conclusive. -ethan From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jul 2 15:31:04 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:31:04 -0400 Subject: VT-131 prints? In-Reply-To: References: <0IJ0001WP83IDNIA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <42C6F988.nailOE011CMWH@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > buy a bag of 100V caps That white-ball with wires is supposed to be a fast-recovery diode. It gets hot, as you can tell by the charred PC board around it. Replacing it with something beefier (but it has to be fast-recovery!) never hurts. Tim. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 2 15:33:29 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:33:29 -0400 Subject: VT-131 prints? Message-ID: <0IJ000KK5P3S4JM0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VT-131 prints? > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:25:41 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 7/2/05, Allison wrote: >> Common VT1xx part failure. Seemed they made the video board with a >> 50V cap where a 100V cap should be. Huge numbers of them were made >> and failed but amazingly there are still many in use that havent.. Yet. >> It is repairable as it cooks a cap, diode and resistor. > >That sounds like once someone traces down the problem, it belongs in a >FAQ somewhere. > >I haven't had any failures like that, so I guess I'd like to know >more, especially to buy a bag of 100V caps and preemptively fix some >of my terminals (I have stuff ranging from gen-u-ine VT100s, to >VT102s, a VT103, a VT105, a DECmate I, etc., and I don't recall if I >have a VT125 or VT131 or not. > >-ethan All qualify. It's the board in the monitor (display) that is in question. There is a (memory test) 100mf 50V cap and it's subject to more than that (about 70V). It was fixed in production and who knows how many field repairs by board replacement, I once saw a crate of dead boards 4x4x6ft full, and that was a sample. If the cap is replaced with suitable the failure is unlikely. I have several VT1xx and all have been fixed over 10 years ago. Failing boards display height and linearity problems before they fry. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 2 15:48:18 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:48:18 -0400 Subject: VT-131 prints? Message-ID: <0IJ00010QPSHDCMB@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VT-131 prints? > From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) > Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:31:04 -0400 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org, cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> buy a bag of 100V caps > >That white-ball with wires is supposed to be a fast-recovery diode. >It gets hot, as you can tell by the charred PC board around it. Replacing >it with something beefier (but it has to be fast-recovery!) never >hurts. Actually it gets hot due to the cap shorting or going leaky. Then the diode and an associated resistor start heating excessively till the cap shorts completely or the heat causes the diode to short. It's a single point failure that was due to a underrated part (cap). I was with TSG (Terminal Systems Group) when they discovered they were getting killed by field failures of 1.7 years in service (average age) VT1xx video modules. All because someone wrote 50V not 100V for the electrolytic used. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 2 16:29:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 14:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Testing PC controller for FM disk capability In-Reply-To: <42C6F6A1.3070302@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jul 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > I'm setting up a YE-data 8" drive (YD-180) to use with a PC. I have > a couple of candidates, as far as which computer I use, but I need to > make sure that the onboard FDC will read and write FM disks. The best way to do this is to just try it (on a known good FM disk) and see if it works. > I'm assuming that if I can write an RX01 image to floppy on the PC > and boot it on the PDP-11 (RX02 drive), I'm good to go? Probably. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 2 16:37:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 14:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux Message-ID: Ok, it seems everytime I try to do something, there has to be about 96 unproductive hours filled with failed attempts to do even the simplest things, like installing Linux for example. I'll spare everyone the lame details, suffice it to say that, now that everything is hooked up, I have been unable to successfully read a 9-track tape. I can certainly get the tape to do stuff like forward through files, rewind, get the status, etc. using mt. That much works. However, if I try to READ a file, and I've tried this with dd and Eric Smith's tapedump utility and whatnot, it always returns with 0 files read. It apparently sees the file marks as it will say its reading file 1, file 2, etc., but it never actually dumps anything. I've tried the multiple tapes at multiple densities and they are tapes I've read before on another system. WTF??? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jul 2 17:23:37 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:23:37 -0700 Subject: Testing PC controller for FM disk capability In-Reply-To: <42C6F6A1.3070302@mdrconsult.com> (Doc Shipley's message of "Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:18:41 -0500") References: <42C6F6A1.3070302@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200507022223.j62MNbfd074286@lots.reanimators.org> Doc Shipley wrote: > Is there a list of FDC chips known to support FM? Once upon a time Amardeep Chana (I think) set out to find out what worked. I'm thinking this was over in comp.os.cpm. Um, yes, take a look at: It may be worthwhile to look at the entire thread. He and others have mentioned that the floppy-disk controller portion of the Adaptec 1542CF and 1542CP ISA cards worked well. -Frank McConnell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 2 16:42:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 22:42:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT-131 prints? In-Reply-To: <200507020457.j624vhZa024559@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Jul 2, 5 00:57:43 am Message-ID: > > I have a VT-131 suffering from video circuit problems. The logic I think all the VT1xx terminals use much the same video board, but there are at least 3 versions of it that were essentially randomly used in all models. The VT100 prints that I have show one version, I traced out the schemaitc of the one used in my VT100s. > seems to be ok -- does a self test, led dance, emits a normal beep, > and ends with the on-line led lit. The crt filament is glowing. > Key click happens when keys are pressed. No screen display. > I've turned up brightness in set-up, flying blind. Haven't twiddled > the pot yet. So far, I've just taken the lid off, and am looking > into the still-assembled chassis. I would start by measuring the CRT voltages. If you have an EHT meter, start with the anode connector on the side of the CRT (expect about 10-12 kV here I think). Expect a few hundred volts on pins 6 and 7 of the CRT (g2 and g3, to use the US names). > > The video board has some very charred-looking spots around the solder > pads of one component (cap? spherical white ceramic-like device with > two stout leads) down and to the right of the brightness adjustment. That sounds like one of the many diodes that produce supplies from the flyback transformer. > > The tech manuals from bitsavers and vt100.net don't give me enough > info to identify the component in question. > > Anyone have prints they'd be willing to scan bits of for me? Or read > off to me by e-mail? Or have "replace this, kid" or "you're screwed" > specific knowledge of this scenario? Alas most of the time the problem is the flyback transformer. Be warned that a shorted diode on the video board can kill flybacks, and that a defective flyback transformer can kill the horizontal output transistor on the video board. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 2 16:46:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 22:46:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT-131 prints? In-Reply-To: <42C67364.nailK2H11LEW8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jul 2, 5 06:58:44 am Message-ID: > If you've got any other VT1xx terminal, swapping out the flyback/video > stuff that's in common will verify that you're lacking HV for the CRT. Be careful if you do this. As I mentioned earlier, a bad flyback can damage the PCB, a bad PCB can damage the flyback. The problem could be the CRT. Yes, I know that the heater is glowing, but it's not unheard-of for the cathode connection to break away inside. Result : No beam current, and thus no illumnination on the screen. I had this happen on a Volker-Craig terminal. It is much better to measure the CRT electrode voltages and then work out what's wrong than to guess and start replacing parts before you have any clue as to the problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 2 16:47:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 22:47:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <001701c57efd$05b01a60$5b01a8c0@flexpc> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jul 2, 5 12:56:01 pm Message-ID: > > >Incidentally, do you have the COS (monitor ROM) source listings? They > >were available from RML, but I didn't get them with my machine, alas. > > I'm sure I have some listings, and my vague recollection is that they > were for COS. I scanned everything I have and sent it to Manx Can somebody remind me of the URL, and I'll take a look... Thanks -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 2 17:03:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 23:03:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: <20050702130602.PLCM16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jul 2, 5 09:06:03 am Message-ID: > > Anyone have service information on the Epson HX-20? > > Specifically looking for information on the LCD driver. > I have an HX-20 in which the LCD has grown very dim ... > appears blank from normal viewing angle, but is barely > readable at very low angle... I have the hardware technical manual... Firstly, a pinout of the tapewire to the LCD module (it plugs into the keyboard PCB). 1 Gnd 2 CS0/ These are the chip select lines for the 3 CS4/ 6 LCD driver chips (7227) 4 CS2/ 5 CS1/ 6 CS3/ 7 CS5/ 8 Reset 9 Clk 10 C/D (Command/Data select) 11 SI (Serial In) 12 SCK/ (Shift clock) 13 SO/Busy (serial output/busy line) 14 Vcc (LCD supply voltage) The LCD driver chip is actually a standard, not custom, part. NEC uPD7227. I have a data sheet on it I think. Now, I would start by checking that LCD supply voltage signal. It starts on the main board where IC 2C (4049) acts as an oscillator and driver to operate a voltage doubler, You should see about 7V (I think) on the +ve end of C1 or C6. This then goes up to the keyboard, to a 2 transistor voltage controller circuit there. Check for an adjustable voltage (set with the thumbwheel on the side of the machine) at the emitter of Q2 on the keyboard. This voltage, BTW, is fed back to the mainboard to power some of the ICs that connect to the LCD driver chips. > > Also, anyone on the list with a working HX-20 who would > be willing to open it up and take some voltage/waveform > readings for me (you will need an oscilloscope)? Setting it up near a 'scope would be a pain, but I can do voltage readings or logic analyster traces if you think that would help. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 2 17:10:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 23:10:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120335471.7101.31.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 2, 5 08:17:51 pm Message-ID: > I don't have any kind of docs for a tape-only system though; only ones Nor do I. I've never actually seen a system without disk drives either, although I am pretty sure they existed. > for disk systems - which happen to describe tape procedures too. Maybe > you have some different ones. It was more that I'm surprised they didn't > say in the docs that it was an RML part, or avaialble from RML or > whatever. > > The Disk Information File does mention a "Firmware reference manual" as > having more info on the COS tape routines and a description of the > interface - maybe that one has more details in it about the dual tape > controller. It's not a document I've seen. I think I do have a COS firmware manual somewhere, but it will take some finding... > > > Incidentally, do you have the COS (monitor ROM) source listings? They > > were available from RML, but I didn't get them with my machine, alas. > > If you can stand a PDF I think this is the one :-) > > http://vt100.net/rm/docs/RML_380Z_cassette_operating_system.pdf OK, thnaks... > > 489KB, so not too huge either :) > > I've brought a bunch of RML floppies home for the week from the museum, > so I'll see what's on those and at least make a few backup copies. Might > well be something interesting (I don't believe we've got any RML stuff > on tape though) Pity. I'd hoped at least one original RML cassette esisted somewhere. >From reading the manual, it appers that the phase of the replay signal is critical (it was with some other tape interfaces too) and I was hoping I could get an original tape to set up against. Oh well.... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 2 17:37:25 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 15:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Testing PC controller for FM disk capability In-Reply-To: <42C6F6A1.3070302@mdrconsult.com> References: <42C6F6A1.3070302@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20050702152446.Y36719@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 2 Jul 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > I'm assuming that if I can write an RX01 image to floppy on the PC > and boot it on the PDP-11 (RX02 drive), I'm good to go? 'twould seem likely > Is there a list of FDC chips known to support FM? Actually, just about all of the FDC chips support FM! Unfortunately, some FDC BOARDS require some trivial additional circuitry that may or may not be there. For example, the NEC 765 supports FM, but the circuitry on the 5150 FDC board hardwires it to MFM. With some trivial mods, the FM can be enabled. BTW, some additional [not quite so trivial] mods are required to the 5150 if you want the 8" data transfer rates. Boards that use the 37C65 disk controller chip can usually handle FM (at least for reading) without modification. Just about any AT disk controller can handle 8" (at least MFM), since the 1.2M drive was originally intended as a replacement for 8" drives. But there are SOME PCs that will choke on 8" during P.O.S.T. (Power On Self Test) due to having 77 instead of 80 tracks, and/or not having a "360K mode". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 2 17:56:16 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 15:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: <20050702130602.PLCM16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050702130602.PLCM16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20050702155142.H36719@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 2 Jul 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Anyone have service information on the Epson HX-20? Check with Uncle Roger, if he's still around. I sold him two HC-20s (the Japanese model (different color, katakana on the keyboard, and different ROMs)), and gave him a tote of docs that included schematics. All the text is in Japanese, but a schematic is a schematic. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rmeenaks at olf.com Sat Jul 2 19:30:39 2005 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 20:30:39 -0400 Subject: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards Message-ID: <0IJ000LFEZFGZJ60@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Hi, Does anyone know how to set these boards up? I have a SBS 616 PCI adapter and its corresponding VMEBus adapter. I also have a VME Chassis and I want to install some transputer boards on the chassis and access it via Windows. Anyone have experience in using these??? Thanks, Ram From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 2 20:00:18 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 18:00:18 -0700 Subject: SASI vs. SCSI Message-ID: <7e71cccee2fa172653da6c5b0715edf5@bitsavers.org> I've never seen a proper spec or anything (unlike for SCSI) -- Because the standardization process is what created SCSI. Look in the Xebec, Shugart, and DTC manuals on bitsavers. There will be another batch of Shugart 14xx manuals up soon. The big difference is SASI has no notion of deconnect/reconnect. Once a transaction starts on SASI, no other device has bus access. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jul 2 22:31:35 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 23:31:35 -0400 Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C75C17.1000002@atarimuseum.com> Sallem, What kind of backups are they? Are they perhaps BSD Linux using the level0 backup method? What version of Linux are you currently running to do tape backup/restores? If it is a level0 (I'm rusting, so someone correct me if I'm mistaken) restore -i should put you into interactive mode there you can do a directory of contents of the tape and if you are looking to restore all the contents I think its restore -r * (make sure you are in the destination directory before running that as all contents will be copied into the directory you are in when you run that command) Depending on your linux, you may have to patch it to include the restore command as some instances of linux are no longer including it which I've seen with Mandrake and Turbo Linux. Last time I checked version 8 and think 9 of Redhat still had the command included. Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Ok, it seems everytime I try to do something, there has to be about 96 >unproductive hours filled with failed attempts to do even the simplest >things, like installing Linux for example. > >I'll spare everyone the lame details, suffice it to say that, now that >everything is hooked up, I have been unable to successfully read a 9-track >tape. > >I can certainly get the tape to do stuff like forward through files, >rewind, get the status, etc. using mt. That much works. > >However, if I try to READ a file, and I've tried this with dd and Eric >Smith's tapedump utility and whatnot, it always returns with 0 files read. >It apparently sees the file marks as it will say its reading file 1, file >2, etc., but it never actually dumps anything. > >I've tried the multiple tapes at multiple densities and they are tapes >I've read before on another system. > >WTF??? > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.8/37 - Release Date: 7/1/2005 From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jul 2 23:03:32 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 23:03:32 -0500 Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: <42C75C17.1000002@atarimuseum.com> References: <42C75C17.1000002@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200507022303.32579.pat@computer-refuge.org> Curt @ Atari Museum declared on Saturday 02 July 2005 10:31 pm: > Sallem, > > What kind of backups are they? Are they perhaps BSD Linux > using the level0 backup method? What version of Linux are you > currently running to do tape backup/restores? If it is a level0 (I'm > rusting, so someone correct me if I'm mistaken) Uhm, I really doubt that Sellam is trying to do backups from his Linux system to 9-track tapes... I'm sure that he's trying to read tapes written on something else (like maybe a PDP11 or something) on the Linux box. Sellam, are you sure that your tape drive works, and that the SCSI chain is properly terminated? An unterminated SCSI chain may be good enough to pass forward/rewind commands, but have problems with data transfers long enough to pass data to/from the tape. If the SCSI chain is intact and terminated properly (you could stick another device, maybe a SCSI HDD, on the chain to test that), then i'd suspect the drive as being bad. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From drb at msu.edu Sat Jul 2 23:37:47 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:37:47 -0400 Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux Message-ID: <200507030437.j634bl3b019953@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > However, if I try to READ a file, and I've tried this with dd and > Eric Smith's tapedump utility and whatnot, it always returns with > 0 files read. It apparently sees the file marks as it will say its > reading file 1, file 2, etc., but it never actually dumps anything. > > I've tried the multiple tapes at multiple densities and they are > tapes I've read before on another system. Any idea what block size was used to write the tapes? Any relevant messages in the kernel log (i.e. output of "dmesg")? Which /dev/device are you using to access the drive? What's the dd command you're using? > WTF??? Sounds like _my_ life. :-) De From unibus at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 02:23:39 2005 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:23:39 +1000 Subject: SASI vs. SCSI In-Reply-To: <200507021700.j62H03qr082930@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507021700.j62H03qr082930@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > I almost hate to ask the obvious, but does something have specifications > for the SASI protocol? That would go a long way to answering some of > the questions. Try http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/shugart as there are controllers in there. Also some information in the '1984 Storage Management Products Handbook' Western Digital. Board WD1002-SMD. Regards, Garry From news at computercollector.com Sun Jul 3 04:14:52 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 05:14:52 -0400 Subject: Psion 1 manual online Message-ID: <200507030920.j639KHLM038389@keith.ezwind.net> A few people asked me for copies of the original Psion Organiser manual. I finally got around to scanning it and posted a copy at http://www.snarc.net/psion1.pdf for open perusal. - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 750 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jul 3 07:30:02 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 08:30:02 -0400 Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info Message-ID: <20050703123001.MQOO5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Tony, >Now, I would start by checking that LCD supply voltage signal. It starts >on the main board where IC 2C (4049) acts as an oscillator and driver to >operate a voltage doubler, You should see about 7V (I think) on the +ve >end of C1 or C6. This then goes up to the keyboard, to a 2 transistor >voltage controller circuit there. Check for an adjustable voltage (set >with the thumbwheel on the side of the machine) at the emitter of Q2 on >the keyboard. This voltage, BTW, is fed back to the mainboard to power >some of the ICs that connect to the LCD driver chips. Thanks for the useful information. I am seeing only about 3.5v on C1/C6 ... and it has about a 1v DC square(ish) wave superimposed on it. I see the same voltage/waveform at the transistors, and on the voltage input to the LCD. The thumbwheel does not affect it a whole lot - it mostly clips the tops of the square wave. Unplugging the LCD module makes little difference, so it's not a loading issue (at least not from the module). I see lots of very healty looking 5v square waves coming out of IC2C, however I am having a great deal of difficulty trying to trace the circuit on the board. Can you give me a bit more of the circuit? Which pins coming out of IC2C are driving the power supply, and what is the circuit between these and C1? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jul 3 07:31:32 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 08:31:32 -0400 Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info Message-ID: <20050703123132.MRDY5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Fred, >Check with Uncle Roger, if he's still around. >I sold him two HC-20s (the Japanese model (different color, katakana >on the keyboard, and different ROMs)), and gave him a tote of docs >that included schematics. All the text is in Japanese, but a schematic >is a schematic. Um... who is "Uncle Roger"? Is he a participant in this list? How to contact him? Regards and thanks for responding. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 3 08:23:50 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 13:23:50 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120397030.8144.16.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-07-02 at 23:10 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > I don't have any kind of docs for a tape-only system though; only ones > > Nor do I. I've never actually seen a system without disk drives either, > although I am pretty sure they existed. We've got several 380Z's (well, two or three) that have no drives in them - I expect those are tape-only systems. Unfortunately I've never had time to look inside them as there's always been something more important to do! I know we've got one of the 8" drive setups too which are rather rare, plus we've got one 380Z-FD machine which should have the "full disk" controller in it (on-board RAM, ROM, its own Z80 cpu etc.). (Said disk controller also has the SIO-4 on board, and the on-board firmware should allow communication direct between the disks and the serial port - I believe it's the same board as used for the 480Z shared disk system) What we don't have is keyboards. In some cases that's not such a big deal as with the later serial boards they could run from a terminal rather than system keyboard & display. > > The Disk Information File does mention a "Firmware reference manual" as > > having more info on the COS tape routines and a description of the > > interface - maybe that one has more details in it about the dual tape > > controller. It's not a document I've seen. > > I think I do have a COS firmware manual somewhere, but it will take some > finding... Good - RML documentation seems to be *very* thin on the ground! (Not like the machines are common either!) > > I've brought a bunch of RML floppies home for the week from the museum, > > so I'll see what's on those and at least make a few backup copies. Might > > well be something interesting (I don't believe we've got any RML stuff > > on tape though) > > Pity. I'd hoped at least one original RML cassette esisted somewhere. > >From reading the manual, it appers that the phase of the replay signal is > critical (it was with some other tape interfaces too) and I was hoping I > could get an original tape to set up against. Oh well.... Presumably saving some data on one (or more) tape-based system(s) would be enough to you to read it one yours and setup against that. Not as ideal as going from an original manufacturer tape maybe, but probably the best that can be hoped for. Aside - ever seen a 480Z ROM cartridge? I only found out that they existed (according to the documentation) the other day. Never heard of anyone owning or seeing one before though... cheers Jules From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 09:08:46 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 07:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050703140846.36122.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Could this be a driver issue ? I would verify that the tape drive you're using is set up in the SCSI tape subsystem. I went through a similar exercise for Solaris with an Overland tape drive and I had to edit and recompile st.c in order to correctly deal with the drive. What type of tape drive is it - and which version/flavor of Linux ? Dave --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > However, if I try to READ a file, and I've tried > this with dd and Eric > Smith's tapedump utility and whatnot, it always > returns with 0 files read. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 3 09:09:08 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 10:09:08 -0400 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I spent a big part of yesterday sorting out the DEC cards that I've been picking up the last couple of weeks. This morning I photographed SOME of the PDP-8 cards. Take a look there's definitely some odd stuff there! This is just a small part of the ones that I got. I'll add more photos and (hopefully) descriptions later. If anyone wants to take a stab at identifing some of the third party cards and/or writing a description I'll be glad to post it. Joe From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 09:21:36 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 07:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Psion 1 manual online In-Reply-To: <200507030920.j639KHLM038389@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050703142136.97494.qmail@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On a related note, I have the owner's manual and the Comms Option manual for the Organizer II. I still use the Psion today - it has an autobaud feature that is handy for checking serial port setups on other machines. Dave --- 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > A few people asked me for copies of the original > Psion Organiser manual. I > finally got around to scanning it and posted a copy > at > http://www.snarc.net/psion1.pdf for open perusal. __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jul 3 11:35:48 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 09:35:48 -0700 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: At 10:09 AM -0400 7/3/05, Joe R. wrote: >more photos and (hopefully) descriptions later. If anyone wants to take a >stab at identifing some of the third party cards and/or writing a >description I'll be glad to post it. I'll pass on trying to ID anything, however, you might find this old project of my interesting. It's a list of non-Q-Bus and non-Unibus modules. ftp://192.168.1.41/pub/ModuleList.txt Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jul 3 11:40:25 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 11:40:25 -0500 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards References: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <006101c57fed$eb7cd290$57406b43@66067007> I could link to the list? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:35 AM Subject: Re: My PDP-8 Cards > At 10:09 AM -0400 7/3/05, Joe R. wrote: >>more photos and (hopefully) descriptions later. If anyone wants to take a >>stab at identifing some of the third party cards and/or writing a >>description I'll be glad to post it. > > I'll pass on trying to ID anything, however, you might find this old > project of my interesting. It's a list of non-Q-Bus and non-Unibus > modules. > > ftp://192.168.1.41/pub/ModuleList.txt > > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 3 11:42:43 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:42:43 -0400 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050703124243.00a56380@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi Zane, I found it. It's been pretty useful. I have enough DEC docs that id'ing the DEC stuff isn't a problem. It's the 3rd party stuff that's a problem. For example I know what the Plessey 700643, 700645 and 700647 are but I've never even heard of a Plessey memory card and I have no idea what the other Plessey card is for. I'd love to find docs for stuff like the Mostek memory cards, not only are they capable of holding 64k of memory but I also have several of them so they could be real handy. Joe At 09:35 AM 7/3/05 -0700, you wrote: >At 10:09 AM -0400 7/3/05, Joe R. wrote: >>more photos and (hopefully) descriptions later. If anyone wants to take a >>stab at identifing some of the third party cards and/or writing a >>description I'll be glad to post it. > >I'll pass on trying to ID anything, however, you might find this old >project of my interesting. It's a list of non-Q-Bus and non-Unibus >modules. > >ftp://192.168.1.41/pub/ModuleList.txt > > Zane > > >-- >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Jul 3 11:45:46 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 18:45:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Free: Commodore 8024 printer Message-ID: <20355.62.177.191.201.1120409146.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Available (in the Netherlands), a Commodore 8024 printer with 3 unused ink ribbons. Shipping is possible, but due to weight (+/- 15Kg) local pickup is preferred. Ed From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jul 3 12:01:36 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 10:01:36 -0700 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards In-Reply-To: <006101c57fed$eb7cd290$57406b43@66067007> References: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <006101c57fed$eb7cd290$57406b43@66067007> Message-ID: At 11:40 AM -0500 7/3/05, Keys wrote: >I could link to the list? Yes, but you'll want to use ftp://ftp.avanthar.com/pub/ModuleList.txt Obviously not enough caffeine yet this morning. Guess that's what I get for posting when I first get up. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 12:16:41 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 12:16:41 -0500 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 7/3/05, Joe R. wrote: > If anyone wants to take a stab at identifing some of the third party cards and/or writing a > description I'll be glad to post it. I don't know _what_ it is, but the card you have marked "SSS" is a Systems Industries card - so you might consider renaming it to "SI Unknown" or something similar. I wish there were more information running around about SI products - I have a Qbus SCSI controller that I'm still searching for more info on - it was strapped to a non-standard address, plus I'm not sure if it is TMSCP only or if it does MSCP. It's a model CS-21, IIRC. -ethan From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sun Jul 3 12:16:46 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 13:16:46 -0400 Subject: TI Modulators & cassette cables available Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050703131644.02593b10@pop-server> I have a number of these and will make them available to members of this list for for the price shown TI-99/4A Modulator UM1381-1 NEW $6 TI Home Computer 99/4A Cassette Cable NEW $4 Model # PHA 2622 TI Home Computer 99/4A Dual Cassette Cable NEW one w/2 leads other with 3 PHA 2000 $6 plus shipping of course ================================= Gene Ehrich gehrich at tampabay.rr.com From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sun Jul 3 12:23:12 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 13:23:12 -0400 Subject: almost Free Commodore 1541 801 802 6100 In-Reply-To: <20355.62.177.191.201.1120409146.squirrel@62.177.191.201> References: <20355.62.177.191.201.1120409146.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050703132030.025a0010@pop-server> Commodore 1541 Disk Drive $3.00 Commodore MPS 801 Printer $3.00 Commodore MPS 802 Printer $3.00 Juki 6100 printer for Commodore $3.00 local pickup only - Spring Hill Florida From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jul 3 13:03:17 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:03:17 -0500 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards References: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><006101c57fed$eb7cd290$57406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <008c01c57ff9$7ec79340$57406b43@66067007> Thanks not thinking this morning myself. The list is great. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 12:01 PM Subject: Re: My PDP-8 Cards > At 11:40 AM -0500 7/3/05, Keys wrote: >>I could link to the list? > > Yes, but you'll want to use ftp://ftp.avanthar.com/pub/ModuleList.txt > > Obviously not enough caffeine yet this morning. Guess that's what I get > for posting when I first get up. > > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 3 14:06:26 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:06:26 -0700 Subject: 8" Apple Disks? Message-ID: <42C83732.51B2CFD4@rain.org> A friend of mine showed me some 8" disks labeled "Apple" written on the label but did not have an Apple logo on them. Did Apple ever issue software on 8" disks and/or support 8" drives? From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jul 3 14:37:39 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 15:37:39 -0400 Subject: 8" Apple Disks? In-Reply-To: <42C83732.51B2CFD4@rain.org> References: <42C83732.51B2CFD4@rain.org> Message-ID: <42C83E83.nail7K31TPMMO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Did Apple ever [...] support 8" drives? There were a couple of aftermarket outfits that sold 8" drives, controllers, and software for Apple II's. These were available through Apple dealers but weren't really products of Apple Computer. (Typically they were used for interchange with CP/M systems, although I know of a few used to exchange RT-11 and UCSD stuff.) The brands I remember are Vista and Lobo. I think Lobo had patches for 8" drive access via Microsoft Softcard and CP/M. Tim. From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 3 14:57:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 12:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: <200507022303.32579.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jul 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum declared on Saturday 02 July 2005 10:31 pm: > > Sallem, > > > > What kind of backups are they? Are they perhaps BSD Linux > > using the level0 backup method? What version of Linux are you > > currently running to do tape backup/restores? If it is a level0 (I'm > > rusting, so someone correct me if I'm mistaken) > > Uhm, I really doubt that Sellam is trying to do backups from his Linux > system to 9-track tapes... I'm sure that he's trying to read tapes > written on something else (like maybe a PDP11 or something) on the Linux > box. Correct. > Sellam, are you sure that your tape drive works, and that the SCSI chain > is properly terminated? An unterminated SCSI chain may be good enough > to pass forward/rewind commands, but have problems with data transfers > long enough to pass data to/from the tape. The tape drive was known to be working (I borrowed it from a Howard Harte who used it previously to read some tapes for me). However, the termination is something that I've been concerned with. Howard used it with a short (~3ft) SCSI cable. I'm using it with a longer (~6ft) cable. The tape drive has two 50-pin IDC connectors on the back. There's a ribbon cable coming out of one of the connectors with two amphenol connectors on the end. One amphenol connector is terminated, and the other is connected to my SCSI cable, which is then connected to my SCSI interface on the PC. The other 50-pin IDC connector is just open. I mentioned to Howard that this didn't look right but he said it always worked for him. I have (or at least I think I have) a terminator that will plug into a 50-pin IDC type connector, but I can't find it. I'm hoping that fixing this cabling mess will solve the problem. > If the SCSI chain is intact and terminated properly (you could stick > another device, maybe a SCSI HDD, on the chain to test that), then i'd > suspect the drive as being bad. Hmm, good idea. I hadn't thought to extend the chain to something that I can reliably terminate. I'll try again, though at this point I'd rather be shot in the head. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 3 14:59:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 12:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: <200507030437.j634bl3b019953@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Dennis Boone wrote: > > However, if I try to READ a file, and I've tried this with dd and > > Eric Smith's tapedump utility and whatnot, it always returns with > > 0 files read. It apparently sees the file marks as it will say its > > reading file 1, file 2, etc., but it never actually dumps anything. > > > > I've tried the multiple tapes at multiple densities and they are > > tapes I've read before on another system. > > Any idea what block size was used to write the tapes? Any relevant > messages in the kernel log (i.e. output of "dmesg")? Which /dev/device > are you using to access the drive? What's the dd command you're using? The block and record sizes are written on the tape label: 80 and 3200 respectively. However, adding these to the command line options don't fix anything. The dd command I used is simple: dd if=/dev/st0 of=tape.img I've since learned that I want to use the /dev/nrst0 device handle so that the tape does not rewind after every file operation. That's handy, but doesn't solve the problem. > > WTF??? > > Sounds like _my_ life. :-) I tell ya, I can understand that complicated shit will take time, but when something that should be easy gives me more grief than the most difficult things I've ever worked on, it makes you wonder. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 3 15:00:57 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: <20050703123132.MRDY5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Fred, > > >Check with Uncle Roger, if he's still around. > >I sold him two HC-20s (the Japanese model (different color, katakana > >on the keyboard, and different ROMs)), and gave him a tote of docs > >that included schematics. All the text is in Japanese, but a schematic > >is a schematic. > > Um... who is "Uncle Roger"? Is he a participant in this list? How to > contact him? Roger Sinasohn, all around cool dude and friend to everyone. http://www.sinasohn.com -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 3 15:07:29 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" Apple Disks? In-Reply-To: <42C83732.51B2CFD4@rain.org> References: <42C83732.51B2CFD4@rain.org> Message-ID: <20050703130232.Y48654@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > A friend of mine showed me some 8" disks labeled "Apple" written on the > label but did not have an Apple logo on them. Did Apple ever issue > software on 8" disks and/or support 8" drives? Sorrento Valley Associates (SVA) used to make a controller for Apple][ that did 8". Dick (who is now long gone) used to be quite enamored with them. There were a few others. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 3 15:02:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: <20050703140846.36122.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, David Comley wrote: > Could this be a driver issue ? I would verify that the > tape drive you're using is set up in the SCSI tape > subsystem. I went through a similar exercise for > Solaris with an Overland tape drive and I had to edit > and recompile st.c in order to correctly deal with the > drive. > > What type of tape drive is it - and which > version/flavor of Linux ? It's a Kennedy 9610: pretty common. I'm running under Knoppix. Perhaps not the best choice for this sort of thing, but then all the right device handles are there, as well as all the same tools you'd use on any flavor of Linux. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 3 15:05:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" Apple Disks? In-Reply-To: <42C83732.51B2CFD4@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > A friend of mine showed me some 8" disks labeled "Apple" written on the > label but did not have an Apple logo on them. Did Apple ever issue > software on 8" disks and/or support 8" drives? As far as I know, Apple did not, but there were third party 8" drives made for the Apple ][ (I have a subsystem). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jul 3 15:12:29 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 15:12:29 -0500 Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C846AD.3070903@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 2 Jul 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > >>Curt @ Atari Museum declared on Saturday 02 July 2005 10:31 pm: >> >>Uhm, I really doubt that Sellam is trying to do backups from his Linux >>system to 9-track tapes... I'm sure that he's trying to read tapes >>written on something else (like maybe a PDP11 or something) on the Linux >>box. > > > Correct. > > I'll try again, though at this point I'd rather be shot in the head. Sellam, if you have a scratch tape, the best way to validate your hardware is to write and then read a backup. tar, cpio or whatever. Obviously that won't address questions like head alignment, but it will tell you whether your SCSI chain is right and you're talking to the tape drive correctly. And in the unimaginable case that you don't have a scratch tape, contact me off-list. :) Doc From spc at conman.org Sun Jul 3 15:13:49 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:13:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PI/old IRIX questions In-Reply-To: from "Scott Quinn" at Jul 01, 2005 05:13:26 PM Message-ID: <20050703201350.5F11173029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Scott Quinn once stated: > > Got my 4D/25 TG running (Thanks, Robert) with a new 3010 FPU. I have > IRIX 5.3, but even in 32MB it's somewhat slow and a bit unstable. Has > anyone on the list used 4.0.5 or 3.3? I have talked with someone in the > area who has a set of 3.3 tapes, but I don't want to bother him if > there are usability issues, and I haven't talked with anyone about > 4.0.5. Is there anyone who has used these? All i've seen are > screenshots and the fact that 3.3 is SysVr3+NeWS(?) and 4 is > SysVr3(+some r4)+X11, and that the IDO is needed for any practical > work. I have v5.3 & v6.5 Indigo2s, so I don't need it for 'serious' > work, just looking for recommendations & pointers. I used both 3.3 and 4.0.5 on an Iris 4D/35 back in college (10+ years ago). I *loved* 3.3 but it was rather difficult to compile anything using X under that system. The switch to 4.0.5 meant I could then compile and use X applications, but lost NeWS (which is an incredible windowing system---but then again, my machine was one of a handful on campus that actually *ran* NeWS, so I never got the change to really use it to its potential). Both worked well with the 16M RAM I had in the machine. -spc (Both should run winderfully on a 32M system ...) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 15:16:06 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:16:06 -0400 Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: References: <200507030437.j634bl3b019953@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 7/3/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I tell ya, I can understand that complicated shit will take time, but when > something that should be easy gives me more grief than the most difficult > things I've ever worked on, it makes you wonder. Well... termination and cable issues aside, I don't have any obvious things to recommend. I know that in my case, I got a DEC TSZ07, pulled out an Adaptec 1640 PCMCIA SCSI card, plugged it all together and was instantly dumping tapes onto my RH9 laptop. I think others have suggested some good things - test the SCSI chain with a hard disk, then add the tape drive. Perhaps try a different external cable. I've had those go bad on me every once in a long while. If you can get bits at all, it's no longer a pass/fail problem - it's one of those harder-to-track down problems upon which some wierd variable (phase of the moon, etc) is influencing. Not talking at all is much easier to solve. SCSI voodoo... remember, it _used to_ be hard to get some things working. Tape drives never got the same attention as disk drives, and it's less unexpected to fall into a pit trying something new. -ethan From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jul 3 15:20:25 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 15:20:25 -0500 Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C84889.9090204@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > The dd command I used is simple: > > dd if=/dev/st0 of=tape.img > > I've since learned that I want to use the /dev/nrst0 device handle so that > the tape does not rewind after every file operation. That's handy, but > doesn't solve the problem. That also only reads 1 record from the tape. I've had good luck with Michael Sokolov's tape utilities (mktape?), and not-wonderful luck in general extracting non-Unix tapes in Linux. NetBSD or FreeBSD tend to be a little less idiosyncratic about the tape devices themselves. You may also, depending on your SCSI adapter and the tape drive, need to tell the drive either the block size explicitly (each time it changes) or set it to variable. If I'm having trouble reading a stacked tape (multiple files), that's usually the problem. And in Linux, YMMV with the variable setting. > I tell ya, I can understand that complicated shit will take time, but when > something that should be easy gives me more grief than the most difficult > things I've ever worked on, it makes you wonder. I think the "should be easy" part was the crucial mistake. ;) Doc From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Jul 3 15:23:15 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 22:23:15 +0200 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <494216E0-EC00-11D9-8363-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Am zondag, 03.07.05, um 16:09 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Joe R.: > I spent a big part of yesterday sorting out the DEC cards that I've > been > picking up the last couple of weeks. This morning I photographed SOME > of > the PDP-8 cards. Take a look > there's definitely > some > odd stuff there! This is just a small part of the ones that I got. > I'll add > more photos and (hopefully) descriptions later. If anyone wants to > take a > stab at identifing some of the third party cards and/or writing a > description I'll be glad to post it. > The ECRM cards you've got are hardware speedups for OCR scanning. Yes PDP8's were used for OCR ! Some ECRM cards are very usefull, but those aren't. Nevertheless I have all info on those boards should you want do do something with them. ECRM has a two card 24x80 VDU option and a multi-io ( RS232, PPT, printer) all one one omnibus card. That are the truly usefull ones. btw ECRM is still in business... Jos Dreesen From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 3 15:23:18 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: <20050703123132.MRDY5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050703123132.MRDY5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20050703131250.P48654@shell.lmi.net> > >Check with Uncle Roger, if he's still around. > >I sold him two HC-20s (the Japanese model (different color, katakana > >on the keyboard, and different ROMs)), and gave him a tote of docs > >that included schematics. All the text is in Japanese, but a schematic > >is a schematic. On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Fred, > Um... who is "Uncle Roger"? Is he a participant in this list? How to > contact him? Roger Sinasohn? (aka "Uncle Roger") is/was a collector in San Francisco who specialized in laptops. He got half a dozen totes of Gavilan and Epson HC20 stuff from me when I had to clear out of my office. There was a lot of Epson docs in Japanese. I haven't heard anything from or about him in a few years; I hope that he is OK. Sellam might know of a current address for him; the most recent ones that I have are: Roger Sinasohn Uncle Roger Good luck, -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 3 15:24:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" Message-ID: Here's the response I got from the seller who listed that plywood box with keyboard mounted to it: "I am so sorry for the late response. I did not even know about this ebay messages, I have 53 messages now to go through. I thought they all went to my email account. But I guess only some do. Again, I was not trying to dodge your question. I have missed many about 90%. I was not aware of this change in yahoo email." That's his "answer", which I really appreciate because, you know, I would really be bothered if the guy tried to dodge my question. Of course, this doesn't explain how he somehow didn't miss the 5 questions he did respond to which are displayed on the auction page (see for yourself: item #5213140640). BTW, I received this same exact message twice in response to the two inquiries I submitted to him, so I'm sure the other 53 questions got "answered" in a similar fashion. Another fine example of why I can't stand eBay. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 3 15:51:00 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 13:51:00 -0700 Subject: 8" Apple Disks? Message-ID: <42C84FB4.EA0A2B4A@rain.org> This makes sense since he also has quite a bit of Lobo Drives stuff including two Lobo HD/8" Floppy units and a dual Lobo 8" floppy unit. One of the floppies had "CP/M" in the description, so it sounds like I need to take care to keep stuff together. And I will certainly keep my open for SVA and other Apple II controllers ... now that I know they exist :). Thanks for the responses! > > Did Apple ever [...] support 8" drives? > (Typically they were used for interchange with CP/M systems, although > I know of a few used to exchange RT-11 and UCSD stuff.) > > The brands I remember are Vista and Lobo. I think Lobo had patches > for 8" drive access via Microsoft Softcard and CP/M. > > Tim. From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun Jul 3 15:59:07 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:59:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8" Apple Disks? In-Reply-To: <20050703130232.Y48654@shell.lmi.net> References: <42C83732.51B2CFD4@rain.org> <20050703130232.Y48654@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > A friend of mine showed me some 8" disks labeled "Apple" written on the > > label but did not have an Apple logo on them. Did Apple ever issue > > software on 8" disks and/or support 8" drives? > > Sorrento Valley Associates (SVA) used to make a controller for Apple][ > that did 8". > Dick (who is now long gone) used to be quite enamored with them. > > There were a few others. I think I own one of each: SVA Megaflex Vista A1000 Taurus Corvus and one or two others whose names escape me. Steve From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 3 13:17:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 19:17:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120397030.8144.16.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 3, 5 01:23:50 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 2005-07-02 at 23:10 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I don't have any kind of docs for a tape-only system though; only ones > > > > Nor do I. I've never actually seen a system without disk drives either, > > although I am pretty sure they existed. > > We've got several 380Z's (well, two or three) that have no drives in > them - I expect those are tape-only systems. Unfortunately I've never Thay may have been used with external floppy units. The only way to be sure is to see what PCBs are inside. > had time to look inside them as there's always been something more > important to do! I know we've got one of the 8" drive setups too which > are rather rare, plus we've got one 380Z-FD machine which should have > the "full disk" controller in it (on-board RAM, ROM, its own Z80 cpu > etc.). I was readign the 380Z service manual on vt100.net this morning. It was the first time I'd come across this board, it looks rather fun. I thought the 'full disk' controller was the 8" one (which was essentially the same as the normal 380Z controller), and that the one with the on-board Z80 was the Intellegent Disk Controller. But I could well be wrong. > > (Said disk controller also has the SIO-4 on board, and the on-board FWIW, the normal, non-intellegent disk controller has a SIO-4 on the same PCB, but it's nothing to do with the disk controller function. Obviously on that board you can go from serial port to disk without using the rest of the machine. I believe the SIO-4 board (also SIO-5, SIO-6) was just a disk controller board with the serial chips fitted and the disk controller chips not fitted. Much as the RAM expansion board is the same PCB as the CPU board, but you leave off the CPU and buffers, etc. > firmware should allow communication direct between the disks and the > serial port - I believe it's the same board as used for the 480Z shared > disk system) That's what the service manual implied. I have a 480Z (one of the older metal-cased ones), but no disk unit for it. > > What we don't have is keyboards. In some cases that's not such a big > deal as with the later serial boards they could run from a terminal > rather than system keyboard & display. The keyboard interface spec is in the Information File and service manual. The latter also contains a scheamtic of _a_ keyboard, but from what I rmemeber the one I have is very different. Not that said schematic is a lot of use for making one, since the contents of the microcontroller firmware ROM are not know. The keyboard I have (and from what I remember we had at school) has a single 40 pin custom chip in it, nothing more. It would eb a fairly simple microcontroller project to make an interface from a PC keyboard (the old XT, AT, PS/2 ones) to the RML keyboard connector. > > Pity. I'd hoped at least one original RML cassette esisted somewhere. > > >From reading the manual, it appers that the phase of the replay signal is > > critical (it was with some other tape interfaces too) and I was hoping I > > could get an original tape to set up against. Oh well.... > > Presumably saving some data on one (or more) tape-based system(s) would > be enough to you to read it one yours and setup against that. Not as No. What you need is the original (or known-to-be standard) cassette recorder. The point is that if the signal is inverted at any point, the system will not read high-speed (1200 baud) tapes reliably. I think it assumes a cycle starts with a rising edge, and if the signal is inverted, transistions between 1 and 0 bits on the tape and vice versa as seen by the system as odd-length cycles. This is explained (badly) in the information file. Years ago I made an RS232-CUTS tape interface unit. It suffered from much the same problem, I included switches to invert the record and replay phase. I found that you could _not_ depend on cheap cassette recorded getting the phase right, or even being consistent between record and replay. In other words, to load a 'standard' tape (in my case I used a commercially-produced BasicCode tape), you would have to invert the replay signal with some recorders and not others. And once you'd got that right, you would have to invert the record signal with some recorders and not others to get it to record a tape that would load with the same setting as the BasicCode tape. In the xase of the 380Z, what I want to do is to try to load a real RML tape, sort out the replay phase using that, then sort out the recording phase so I can load my own recordings. Oh well... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 3 15:41:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:41:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: <20050703123001.MQOO5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jul 3, 5 08:30:02 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony, > > >Now, I would start by checking that LCD supply voltage signal. It starts > >on the main board where IC 2C (4049) acts as an oscillator and driver to > >operate a voltage doubler, You should see about 7V (I think) on the +ve > >end of C1 or C6. This then goes up to the keyboard, to a 2 transistor > >voltage controller circuit there. Check for an adjustable voltage (set > >with the thumbwheel on the side of the machine) at the emitter of Q2 on > >the keyboard. This voltage, BTW, is fed back to the mainboard to power > >some of the ICs that connect to the LCD driver chips. > > Thanks for the useful information. > > I am seeing only about 3.5v on C1/C6 ... and it has about a 1v DC > square(ish) wave superimposed on it. I see the same voltage/waveform at I suspect thost capacitors have dried up. There's no way there should be that sort of ripple on the +ve side of those capacitors. > I see lots of very healty looking 5v square waves coming out of IC2C, > however I am having a great deal of difficulty trying to trace the circuit > on the board. Can you give me a bit more of the circuit? Which pins > coming out of IC2C are driving the power supply, and what is the circuit > between these and C1? 1000pF VL 820k C31 --- R78 || | +--\/\/\---+--||----+ |\ +----------------+ | | || | +--| >o-----+ | | | / | | |/ 2C/c | | C12 === | \ R74 | | | | 47uF --- | / 390k | | |\ | V D6 | | \ | +-=| >o-----+ --- 1S2075 --- | | | | |/ 2C/b | 10u | /// | |\ | |\ | | | C2 | +--| >o----+-| >o---+------+ |\ | | [] | +---VLD |/ |/ +--| >o-----+--| []---+--->|----+--------+ 2C/d 2C/e | |/ 2C/a | | [] D7 | | | | 1S2075 | | | |\ | | | +--| >o-----+ C1 === C6 === |/ 2C/f | 10uF --- 10uF --- | | | D5 --- --- --- 1S2705 ^ /// /// | --- /// That's an ASCII-art version of the appropriate bit of the schematic. Section d )Input on 10, output on 10) and e (input on 11, output on 12) of IC 2C form the oscillator, the other 4 inverters are paralleled up as the driver. Hope that helps. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 3 16:08:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 14:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: <42C846AD.3070903@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > Sellam, if you have a scratch tape, the best way to validate your > hardware is to write and then read a backup. tar, cpio or whatever. Indeed. I thought of doing this last night so I'll attempt this when I next try to get this stuff working. :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 3 16:11:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 14:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: <20050703131250.P48654@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > I haven't heard anything from or about him in a few years; I hope > that he is OK. Sellam might know of a current address for him; > the most recent ones that I have are: > Roger Sinasohn > Uncle Roger Well, Ricochet is long dead (sigh) but his sinasohn.com domain and e-mail address are still quite active. Roger is doing fine. He now mainly devotes his time to his two beautiful kids (a boy and a girl). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 3 17:02:25 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:02:25 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120428145.9274.26.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-03 at 19:17 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > We've got several 380Z's (well, two or three) that have no drives in > > them - I expect those are tape-only systems. Unfortunately I've never > > Thay may have been used with external floppy units. The only way to be > sure is to see what PCBs are inside. It's on my to-do list... it's just been there for about a year now :-) > > important to do! I know we've got one of the 8" drive setups too which > > are rather rare, plus we've got one 380Z-FD machine which should have > > the "full disk" controller in it (on-board RAM, ROM, its own Z80 cpu > > etc.). > > I was readign the 380Z service manual on vt100.net this morning. It was > the first time I'd come across this board, it looks rather fun. > > I thought the 'full disk' controller was the 8" one (which was > essentially the same as the normal 380Z controller), and that the one > with the on-board Z80 was the Intellegent Disk Controller. But I could > well be wrong. Hmm... I've only seen schematics for two different disk controllers - the simple one (still with an SIO-4 on board) with an FD1771 IC on board, and the one that I thought was the 'full disk' controller with the on-board CPU etc. Far as I know, the former board is FM only and can put about 70KB on a disk, whilst the latter one can do MFM and gets about 240KB on a disk. I'll have to have a look inside our FD machine and see what disk board it has... > FWIW, the normal, non-intellegent disk controller has a SIO-4 on the same > PCB, but it's nothing to do with the disk controller function. Obviously > on that board you can go from serial port to disk without using the rest > of the machine. Yep. :-) > I believe the SIO-4 board (also SIO-5, SIO-6) was just a disk controller > board with the serial chips fitted and the disk controller chips not > fitted. Ahhh, that's an SIO-4C according to the disk system info file - the board for the SIO-4 always has the disk controller circuitry with it according to that doc. RML didn't half make things confusing. > Much as the RAM expansion board is the same PCB as the CPU board, > but you leave off the CPU and buffers, etc. Actually, info on the various PAL chips would be handy; RML didn't half like stuffing PAL chips with different colour codings into all their stuff, and I'm not aware that the equations are documented anywhere. (Your mention of the RAM board made me think of that, as the PAL is different for a RAM board versus the equivalent on the CPU board) > > firmware should allow communication direct between the disks and the > > serial port - I believe it's the same board as used for the 480Z shared > > disk system) > > That's what the service manual implied. I have a 480Z (one of the older > metal-cased ones), but no disk unit for it. Aha, I've got a 480Z disk unit here - never tried it as I need to sit down and figure out the cable wiring which puts a bit of extra time on the task. > > What we don't have is keyboards. In some cases that's not such a big > > deal as with the later serial boards they could run from a terminal > > rather than system keyboard & display. > > The keyboard interface spec is in the Information File and service > manual. The latter also contains a scheamtic of _a_ keyboard, but from > what I rmemeber the one I have is very different. It does seem that there were a few different keyboards, but I'm not sure how they differed internally. Far as I know, they all talked the same protocol to the CPU though. I think hacking a PC keyboard to work with a 380Z would spoil the machine though :-) I'd rather use a period terminal and drive things that way. Hitting a key on the terminal at system start should be enough to wake things up and tell the 380Z to use the terminal as input rather than the usual keyboard. Can't remember if there's a way of telling it what device to use as output, though... > In the xase of the 380Z, what I want to do is to try to load a real RML > tape, sort out the replay phase using that, then sort out the recording > phase so I can load my own recordings. I'll double check regarding tapes. I've got about half of Bletchley's RML software here, and one of the other guys has the rest - so it may be that he has one or more tapes... cheers Jules From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 3 17:01:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 18:01:02 -0400 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards In-Reply-To: <494216E0-EC00-11D9-8363-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> References: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050703180102.00a70100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Jos, Thanks for the info. Can you tell me what the cards that I have do? I'd like to be able to tell something about them. As far as OCR is concerned, at least part of this stuff came from a "DECStation 310" that was used for word processing. I have the Engineering Drawings for the DECStation 310 (I THINK that is the correct name) and a plastic rack panel marked "WPS-8". Joe At 10:23 PM 7/3/05 +0200, you wrote: > >Am zondag, 03.07.05, um 16:09 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Joe R.: > >> I spent a big part of yesterday sorting out the DEC cards that I've >> been >> picking up the last couple of weeks. This morning I photographed SOME >> of >> the PDP-8 cards. Take a look >> there's definitely >> some >> odd stuff there! This is just a small part of the ones that I got. >> I'll add >> more photos and (hopefully) descriptions later. If anyone wants to >> take a >> stab at identifing some of the third party cards and/or writing a >> description I'll be glad to post it. >> > >The ECRM cards you've got are hardware speedups for OCR scanning. >Yes PDP8's were used for OCR ! > Some ECRM cards are very usefull, but those aren't. >Nevertheless I have all info on those boards should you want do do >something with them. > > >ECRM has a two card 24x80 VDU option and a multi-io ( RS232, PPT, >printer) all one one omnibus card. >That are the truly usefull ones. > >btw ECRM is still in business... > > > Jos Dreesen > > From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jul 3 17:32:00 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 17:32:00 -0500 Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: References: <200507022303.32579.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050703172719.051e4b60@mail> At 02:57 PM 7/3/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >However, the termination is something that I've been concerned with. >Howard used it with a short (~3ft) SCSI cable. I'm using it with a longer >(~6ft) cable. The tape drive has two 50-pin IDC connectors on the back. >There's a ribbon cable coming out of one of the connectors with two >amphenol connectors on the end. One amphenol connector is terminated, and >the other is connected to my SCSI cable, which is then connected to my >SCSI interface on the PC. The other 50-pin IDC connector is just open. I >mentioned to Howard that this didn't look right but he said it always >worked for him. > >I have (or at least I think I have) a terminator that will plug into a >50-pin IDC type connector, but I can't find it. I'm hoping that fixing >this cabling mess will solve the problem. Ah, termination. I never believed it was right until I took apart every device and confirmed the wiring. I've seen commercial external SCSI boxes wired the wrong way inside (making illegal 'T's instead of daisy-chain), making proper termination impossible. Good cables can make a difference. Your 6-foot versus Howard's 3-foot could make a difference. Try swapping cables. >I'll try again, though at this point I'd rather be shot in the head. Obviously it's not going to work without the SCSI blood sacrifice. - John From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jul 3 17:36:23 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 18:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Here's the response I got from the seller who listed that plywood box with > keyboard mounted to it: I should mentioned (a bit late, maybe) that I had an "issue" with the seller of the wooden Apple thing some time ago. Basically, I do not trust him one bit. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sun Jul 3 17:42:04 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 17:42:04 -0500 Subject: Swapping Hi density drives for low density drives Message-ID: <42C869BC.4080601@brutman.com> I thought I had this mastered but apparently I don't, and it's driving me nuts. Background: The PCjr, PC and XT use floppy controllers that support double density data rates. High density drives (1.2MB & 1.44MB) obviously support faster data rates, but also support the slower data rates for compatibility with double density media. A nice upgrade for an old machine is to add a 3.5" floppy drive. Genuine 720K double density drives are pretty hard to find now, but of course 1.44MB drives are all over the place. The 1.44 MB drives have nearly the same pinout as a classic 5.25 double density drive, and they usually have a media sensor switch which forces them to use a slower data rate when using double density media. So I swapped the 5.25 double density drive from a PCjr and replaced it with a 1.44MB drive. The Jr can't tell the difference electrically - it wil just use 40 of the 80 tracks. Everything else will be the same. It ran diagnosics and made all of the right noises, then failed. Hmm. So I took the double density media I was using and cut a copy of DOS 3.3 onto it and tried again. Disk boot failure. Hmm.. bad media. Tried again, different diskette. Hmm.. consistent. To make a long story short: - Original IBM DOS 3.3 diskette: boots and runs fine in any drive. - DOS 3.3 copied onto a diskette by Windows or Linux using a 1.44MB drive and booted in a Jr with a 1.44MB drive: boot failure, but disk is readable. Just parts of track 0 are unreadable. - DOS 3.3 copied onto a diskette by the PCjr using a 1.44MB drive. (Booted first with the genuine DOS 3.3, tried to format /s.) Formatting failed - bad media. (Media is good on other machines.) So I found a genuine 720K drive, put it in the Jr, booted DOS and copied DOS again. Then I put the 1.44MB drive back in and booted from the new diskette. It worked! Basically, it's behaving like the 1.44MB drives in both the bigger PCs and on the Jr can't format the 720K media correctly. And I tried several drives (Sony and Teac) and it failed consistently. A real 720 drive can create a diskette that the other drives can boot from. (The bigger PCs with the 1.44MB drives *dont* have a problem with the copied diskette.) Just whipped out the multimeter. The 1.44MB drive definitely sees double density media - pin 2 is being driven high for double density media where normally it would be low. The controller ignores it either way, has pin 2 was unused back then. Does anybody have experience with doing something like this? I thought that the 1.44MB drives had a media sensor that would slow down the recording rate when using double density media. There should have been no problem coping/formatting double density media. And yet, here I am ... Mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 3 17:51:55 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 15:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Swapping Hi density drives for low density drives In-Reply-To: <42C869BC.4080601@brutman.com> References: <42C869BC.4080601@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20050703154415.A48899@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Does anybody have experience with doing something like this? I thought > that the 1.44MB drives had a media sensor that would slow down the > recording rate when using double density media. There should have been > no problem coping/formatting double density media. And yet, here I am ... The media sensor does NOT control the data transfer rate. It only controls the write current level. For READing and WRITEing, the BIOS will try both rates to "find" what works. When FORMATing, the software selects the rate, based on what YOU specify. When you formatted on the other machines, did you do /F:2 or /F:720 or /T:80/N:9 ? If not, then you probably ended up with 1.4M, which the JR cannot read. BTW, FORMAT, particularly the ones in 3.20 and 3.30 will often fail and falsely report media problems if the transfer buffer happens to straddle a 64K boundary. Adding or removing TSRs will move it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 3 17:55:13 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:55:13 +0000 Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120431313.9274.48.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-03 at 12:57 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > However, the termination is something that I've been concerned with. > Howard used it with a short (~3ft) SCSI cable. I'm using it with a longer > (~6ft) cable. The tape drive has two 50-pin IDC connectors on the back. > There's a ribbon cable coming out of one of the connectors with two > amphenol connectors on the end. One amphenol connector is terminated, and > the other is connected to my SCSI cable, which is then connected to my > SCSI interface on the PC. Umm, that's plain wrong. SCSI's just a single bus which needs to be terminated at each end, nowhere inbetween. The controller can be anywhere physically on the bus so long as termination rules are observed. It really is that simple. Sounds like what you have is something where one end of the bus is terminated *before* the last device (the tape drive). That *might* just work (often with the odd data error during use) on a short cable or at a low speed, but it's still wrong. Not sure what controller you're using, but you might need to drop the transfer rate in the BIOS too for that particular device if it's a bit old and clunky. I've never worked out why people think SCSI's so complex - it's always seemed easy to me; the only hassle is tracing oddball data faults when running close to the limit of performance and with a fully loaded bus. > I have (or at least I think I have) a terminator that will plug into a > 50-pin IDC type connector, but I can't find it. I'm hoping that fixing > this cabling mess will solve the problem. Does the drive not have termination built-in that's activated by a jumper? That's reasonably common, even on really old drives. Worst case, grab any old SCSI disk that can also do termination and put *that* at the end of the bus 'past' the tape drive; power it from an old PC PSU or something. (as someone else has suggested) > I'll try again, though at this point I'd rather be shot in the head. it's easy :) Seriously, I've always had more trouble with IDE setups than I have with SCSI (usually because the drives / cables / controllers tend to be cheap crap) have fun! Jules From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jul 3 18:26:32 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 19:26:32 -0400 Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info Message-ID: <20050703232627.NXTE16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Fred, Sellam : Thanks for the info on "Uncle Roger", I'll keep it on file as a reference. Tony sez: > 1000pF VL > 820k C31 --- > R78 || | > +--\/\/\---+--||----+ |\ +----------------+ > | | || | +--| >o-----+ | | > | / | | |/ 2C/c | | C12 === > | \ R74 | | | | 47uF --- > | / 390k | | |\ | V D6 | > | \ | +-=| >o-----+ --- 1S2075 --- > | | | | |/ 2C/b | 10u | /// > | |\ | |\ | | | C2 | > +--| >o----+-| >o---+------+ |\ | | [] | +---VLD > |/ |/ +--| >o-----+--| []---+--->|----+--------+ > 2C/d 2C/e | |/ 2C/a | | [] D7 | | > | | 1S2075 | | > | |\ | | | > +--| >o-----+ C1 === C6 === > |/ 2C/f | 10uF --- 10uF --- > | | | > D5 --- --- --- > 1S2705 ^ /// /// > | > --- > /// > >That's an ASCII-art version of the appropriate bit of the schematic. Section >d )Input on 10, output on 10) and e (input on 11, output on 12) of IC 2C form >the oscillator, the other 4 inverters are paralleled up as the driver. > >Hope that helps. Thanks - it did. I followed the "AC" through, and could see a nice waveform coming out of the 2C driver, however from there it degraded to what I described before at the C1 cap - on a hunch I replaced C1, and the voltage rose to about 7v, and the display was readable, however it was also flickering, and I could see the voltage rising and falling by a couple of volts - I replaced C6 and now it's rock solid, and the display is perfect. C1 and C6 were identical 10uf 16v caps, and that fact that both appeared to have failed gives me concern for the other electrolitics in the machine, which I will check out shortly... but notwithstanding that the machine is functioning perfectly. Next problem is that the microcassette drive appears to be "stuck" with the heads and capstan forward - not really stuck, as you can push them back on their spring, however they are not retained back as they should be - prevents inserting and removing tapes - I haven't opened it yet, but will shortly ... is there any useful info about the drive machanics in the service manual? I assume there must be some kind of solinoid and latch to hold them back and release them? Once again: THANKS! for taking the time to "ascii art" the LCD power supply schematic ... VERY much appreciated! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From KParker at workcover.com Sun Jul 3 19:00:51 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 09:30:51 +0930 Subject: KVM Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C1EF@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Apologies if this is OT I've been amassing bits and pieces to build my own little data centre at home (all rack mount stuff - some of which is probably approaching classic anyway). All I'm missing at the moment are two racks (an integral part of a rack mount system :-) but I think I've sourced a couple locally (they're to expensive to ship from interstate) and a KVM switch (8 port minimum). Everyone wants a truck load of $ for KVM switches and I figure for the price it might be more fun to build one but I've been struggling to locate a circuit diagram. I figure they're just a fancy switch of some type. Anyone have any pointers please? TIA!!! ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From news at computercollector.com Sun Jul 3 19:19:18 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 20:19:18 -0400 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507040025.j640PAuO043604@keith.ezwind.net> I got that too. What an asshole. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 4:25 PM To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" Here's the response I got from the seller who listed that plywood box with keyboard mounted to it: "I am so sorry for the late response. I did not even know about this ebay messages, I have 53 messages now to go through. I thought they all went to my email account. But I guess only some do. Again, I was not trying to dodge your question. I have missed many about 90%. I was not aware of this change in yahoo email." That's his "answer", which I really appreciate because, you know, I would really be bothered if the guy tried to dodge my question. Of course, this doesn't explain how he somehow didn't miss the 5 questions he did respond to which are displayed on the auction page (see for yourself: item #5213140640). BTW, I received this same exact message twice in response to the two inquiries I submitted to him, so I'm sure the other 53 questions got "answered" in a similar fashion. Another fine example of why I can't stand eBay. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cb at mythtech.net Sun Jul 3 19:24:24 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 20:24:24 -0400 Subject: KVM Message-ID: >Everyone wants a truck load of $ for KVM switches and I figure for the >price it might be more fun to build one but I've been struggling to >locate a circuit diagram. I figure they're just a fancy switch of some >type. I found an 8 port KVM on ebay with a BIN price of $70 and something like $15 shipping. It was some generic brand, but it was rack mountable and came will all neccessary cables. I know at the time (a few months ago now), the guy had a bunch of them available. They were all listed as new (and mine certainly showed no signs of ever having been opened before). It has worked perfectly for me since I installed it. The only complaint I had about it was the size was a hair too wide for proper rack mounting. It fit inside standard 19" rack rails, but needed to be jammed into place, and then the holes to mount it to the rack didn't line up with the holes in the rails. Less then a milimeter off, but it was enough to keep the screws from going in. (I got around it by first mounting the ears, and then forcing the KVM into place between the ears, and then screwing the ears to the KVM... its in, and works fine, it just took a little effort) The unit only supports PS/2 devices, however I am successfully using it with PS/2 -> AT keyboard adaptors on a few machines. I have no idea if using an auto sensing PS/2/Serial mouse and adaptors at the computer would work thru it or not (I've not tried to do that). If I need another 8, I'd probably buy another one of them without question (it is also daisy chainable, so if I need another 8, I can tie them together and still use just one Key/Mouse/CRT for all 16 devices). Alas, I don't recall the brand name, but if you can't turn it up on ebay just by looking at descriptions, let me know and I'll check the name on Tuesday when I am back in the office. -chris From medavidson at mac.com Sun Jul 3 19:33:12 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:33:12 -0700 Subject: Surplus in Silicon Valley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you go to Weird Stuff, see if you can get a tour of the back warehouse... that's where the real fun stuff can be found... Of course, if you are in the market for an Onyx (BIG SGI machine), they have 2 out in the warehouse. All you need is a big truck and 3-phase power. :) Mark Davidson medavidson at mac.com On Jun 24, 2005, at 6:23 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > I'm headed out to the San Francisco area at the end of July: > area there any worthwhile surplus outfits to visit? I'm already > planning to hit Halted and Weird Stuff, just for the hell of it. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html > The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/ > ~mloewen/B9/ > Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > From spc at conman.org Sun Jul 3 19:57:03 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 20:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KVM In-Reply-To: from "chris" at Jul 03, 2005 08:24:24 PM Message-ID: <20050704005704.003FB73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great chris once stated: > > The unit only supports PS/2 devices, however I am successfully using it > with PS/2 -> AT keyboard adaptors on a few machines. I have no idea if > using an auto sensing PS/2/Serial mouse and adaptors at the computer > would work thru it or not (I've not tried to do that). > > If I need another 8, I'd probably buy another one of them without > question (it is also daisy chainable, so if I need another 8, I can tie > them together and still use just one Key/Mouse/CRT for all 16 devices). > > Alas, I don't recall the brand name, but if you can't turn it up on ebay > just by looking at descriptions, let me know and I'll check the name on > Tuesday when I am back in the office. Sounds similar to the Belkin Omniview (which I use---it was given to me by someone that no longer needed it). I too am using a PS/2->AT adaptor for a few of the units with no problem, but the PS/2->serial mouse adaptors won't work through it---I've tried. Well rather, what didn't work was: PS/2 mouse -> KVM -> PS/2 cable -> serial adaptor -> computer The unit I have also supports serial ports, so I suppose the following *may* work: PS/2 mouse -> serial adaptor -> KVM -> serial cable -> computer but I haven't tried that. -spc (You can daisy-chain up to 8 Belkin units ... ) From cb at mythtech.net Sun Jul 3 20:31:40 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:31:40 -0400 Subject: KVM Message-ID: > Sounds similar to the Belkin Omniview (which I use---it was given to me by >someone that no longer needed it). I too am using a PS/2->AT adaptor for a >few of the units with no problem, but the PS/2->serial mouse adaptors won't >work through it---I've tried. Well rather, what didn't work was: > > PS/2 mouse -> KVM -> PS/2 cable -> serial adaptor -> computer > > The unit I have also supports serial ports, so I suppose the following >*may* work: > > PS/2 mouse -> serial adaptor -> KVM -> serial cable -> computer > > but I haven't tried that. I have a 4 port one of those as well (in fact, the 8 port no name brand one was replacing my 4 port Belkin). My Belkin supported PS/2 for Mouse/Keyboard and AT Keyboard and Serial Mouse. I could hook up any combination and it passed or adapted all the signals. Very nice unit. Worked pretty well, although I had some problems with it syncing to Windows NT 4 (I would have to wait about 30 seconds after switching to an NT machine before I could use the mouse, if I tried before waiting, it would just randomly bounce all over the screen clicking... I got myself into a couple of bad situations that way as it decided to click on the wrong thing). I originally was looking on ebay for another of the 4 Port Belkin OmniView units I have, but all the used ones were going for close to, or even over the price of the 8 port no name one I got. And none of the Belkin ones had cables or the rack mount frame, which meant the final price would be even higher. So I gave the no name brand a try, and I've been very happy with it. The other nice thing is the Belkin took up 2.5 rack spaces, which means if I got a 2nd one, I'd have lost a total of 5 spaces to run 8 items. The no name brand is a 1u device so I saved quite a bit of rack space. -chris From computer at officereach.net Sun Jul 3 20:52:37 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 18:52:37 -0700 Subject: Surplus in Silicon Valley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's a place that I love called Mike Quinn's , in Oakland, on Adams Street; which basically is 1/4 mile East of Hegenberger & Adams. To be precise, it's exactly 1 1/2 miles south-east of the Oakland Airport. Basically, it's a graveyard for everything - and there's not a price tag in the place - so everything is negotiatable; Don't spend time asking for what the prices are - this makes them mad. And don't call - even if they have a part, they'll tell you no. BUT it's a goldmine for EVERYTHING you can imagine, from old 40XX and 74XX logic components, to MFM drives, power supplies, PCs, RS-232 terminals, and testing equipment. Last time I was there, they just received about 80 machines Silicon Graphics machines from the folks at (un-named local graphics shop for movie industry). The drives were flashed with the OS only. Okay, so there's a lot of stuff there. I have very often brought them stuff, and only gone back to re-purchase it later on (heh...) or in the case that I picked up some nice parts from Quinn's, and put on ebay, they were bought by a Rusiian Aerospace Company, which they responded quite frustratingly when they discovered that I had written out a "Materials Manifest" when sending them to Russia via U.S. Postal Service on the Customs Declarations. "High Quality Milled Aluminum Parts for ??? Purpose". Now, a lot of people won't tell you about Quinn's electronics , because it's sort of a secret place that people like to go - and because it's reasonable, but it's really the most awesome place I have ever gone to in the bay area for electronics. Aaron -----Original Message----- From: Mark Davidson To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:33:12 -0700 Subject: Re: Surplus in Silicon Valley > If you go to Weird Stuff, see if you can get a tour of the back > warehouse... that's where the real fun stuff can be found... Of > course, if you are in the market for an Onyx (BIG SGI machine), they > have 2 out in the warehouse. All you need is a big truck and 3-phase > power. :) > > Mark Davidson > medavidson at mac.com > > On Jun 24, 2005, at 6:23 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > > > > I'm headed out to the San Francisco area at the end of July: > > area there any worthwhile surplus outfits to visit? I'm already > > planning to hit Halted and Weird Stuff, just for the hell of it. > > > > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > > The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html > > The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/ > > ~mloewen/B9/ > > Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 3 21:00:40 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 19:00:40 -0700 Subject: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards Message-ID: <42C89848.3000504@bitsavers.org> Does anyone know how to set these boards up? I have a SBS 616 PCI adapter and its corresponding VMEBus adapter. -- pdfs of manuals for both boards were up on the bit3 web site. If you can't find them there any more i'll put them on bitsavers. does your VME card have the shared memory daughter card? From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jul 3 22:15:18 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 23:15:18 -0400 Subject: Another S100 manual request Message-ID: <009501c58046$9b7fd7c0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: As I slog through the S100 card collection I got with the IMSAI a few weeks ago, I keep finding RAM cards from different manufacturers. I now need a manual for a Solid State Music MB7 16k board. If anyone has it, please let me know. Of course, the offer stands for me to scan it for the group. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 3 22:13:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 04:13:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120428145.9274.26.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 3, 5 10:02:25 pm Message-ID: > > I thought the 'full disk' controller was the 8" one (which was > > essentially the same as the normal 380Z controller), and that the one > > with the on-board Z80 was the Intellegent Disk Controller. But I could > > well be wrong. > > Hmm... I've only seen schematics for two different disk controllers - There are only 2 boards. The 8" controller is the same as the non-intellegent 5.25" one. There are notes on the schematic for the link settings for the FDS (== 8") and MDS (== 5.25") versions. > Far as I know, the former board is FM only and can put about 70KB on a The 1771 is certainly FM (single density) only. > disk, whilst the latter one can do MFM and gets about 240KB on a disk. I've not seriously looked at those schematics yet... > > Much as the RAM expansion board is the same PCB as the CPU board, > > but you leave off the CPU and buffers, etc. > > Actually, info on the various PAL chips would be handy; RML didn't half THere were no PALs in the original set of boards (CPU, VDU, hi-res, disk, etc). WHat there were -- and were to excess -- were small bipolar PROMs. Those were often colour-coded. I will have to check, but I may well have dumps of some of those somewhere. > > That's what the service manual implied. I have a 480Z (one of the older > > metal-cased ones), but no disk unit for it. > > Aha, I've got a 480Z disk unit here - never tried it as I need to sit > down and figure out the cable wiring which puts a bit of extra time on > the task. It would be useful to know the protocol that the 480Z uses to talk to the disk unit. From what I remember, though,, it uses the serial chips in synchronous mode, which means finding another machine that could act as a disk server would not be totally trivial. > It does seem that there were a few different keyboards, but I'm not sure > how they differed internally. Far as I know, they all talked the same > protocol to the CPU though. They did. 7 bit ASCII code and a strobe line. That much is documented in the Infroation File. > > I think hacking a PC keyboard to work with a 380Z would spoil the > machine though :-) I'd rather use a period terminal and drive things COnsidering my Infromation File is dated November 1981, a PC keyboard _is_ period :-) > that way. Hitting a key on the terminal at system start should be enough > to wake things up and tell the 380Z to use the terminal as input rather > than the usual keyboard. Can't remember if there's a way of telling it Are you sure about that? I've never seen it documented anywhere. > what device to use as output, though... > I'll double check regarding tapes. I've got about half of Bletchley's Thanks. But absoutely no hurry -- this is very much a 'to do sometime' project, and it's been on the list for many years! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 3 22:20:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 04:20:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: <20050703232627.NXTE16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jul 3, 5 07:26:32 pm Message-ID: > Thanks - it did. I followed the "AC" through, and could see a nice waveform > coming out of the 2C driver, however from there it degraded to what I described > before at the C1 cap - on a hunch I replaced C1, and the voltage rose to about That was my first guess too... Basically there shouldn't be significant ripple here. > 7v, and the display was readable, however it was also flickering, and I could > see the voltage rising and falling by a couple of volts - I replaced C6 and > now it's rock solid, and the display is perfect. Exvellent! > > Next problem is that the microcassette drive appears to be "stuck" with the heads > and capstan forward - not really stuck, as you can push them back on their spring, > however they are not retained back as they should be - prevents inserting and > removing tapes - I haven't opened it yet, but will shortly ... is there any useful > info about the drive machanics in the service manual? I assume there must be some > kind of solinoid and latch to hold them back and release them? There's a little motor/gearbox to move the head, and I think a position detelction swtich. I will check the manual for you. The technical manual I have gives schematics for the cassette option, exploded views, dismantling instructions, etc. > > Once again: THANKS! for taking the time to "ascii art" the LCD power supply > schematic ... VERY much appreciated! I'm pleased the machine is working again. -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jul 4 00:52:42 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 01:52:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507040558.BAA17454@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > However, the termination is something that I've been concerned with. > Howard used it with a short (~3ft) SCSI cable. I'm using it with a > longer (~6ft) cable. The tape drive has two 50-pin IDC connectors on > the back. There's a ribbon cable coming out of one of the connectors > with two amphenol connectors on the end. One amphenol connector is > terminated, and the other is connected to my SCSI cable, which is > then connected to my SCSI interface on the PC. The other 50-pin IDC > connector is just open. I mentioned to Howard that this didn't look > right but he said it always worked for him. ...on what hardware? It's not right. You might be able to get away with the exceptions for stubs to devices if the wires from the terminator to the device and the open connector are short enough, but that seems unlikely to me, especially since I think the maximum stub length for that exception is something like three inches. I would, though, suggest using an old slow host interface to drive it. A modern peecee SCSI card will probably try to run it at fairly high speeds, at which rates the transmission-line effects of the wiring botch can cause trouble; at slow data rates such as are typical of pre-sync SCSI, it may well work fine. And, yes, as whoever it was (Curt, I think?) said, terminate it, even if it means hooking up another device. Oh, and-- use an active terminator, if you can. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jul 4 04:22:16 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 10:22:16 +0100 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2b541d854d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Another fine example of why I can't stand eBay. Here's a fine example of why I can't stand it. On Sunday morning I added an item to my watchlist - a Microprofessor MPF-1, complete, boxed, with manuals. Supposedly perfect condition too. Also checked that it was still pointed at my Gmail address. It was. The auction was due to end at 4PM on Sunday (ie. yesterday). When did I get the "Item is ending within 5 hours" message? That's right. 5 minutes ago. Followed by an "Item has ended, YOU LOSE!" message. Fecking stupid thing. And people wonder why I hate ebay. What really pisses me off is that it's done this to me THREE TIMES this week, to three different email addresses. Bleagh. I wanted that MPF, too - it only went for ?16 - my max was way higher than that :( :( :( Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... As I said before, I never repeat myself. From James at jdfogg.com Mon Jul 4 07:05:21 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 08:05:21 -0400 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BA7@sbs.jdfogg.com> > -----Original Message----- > Another fine example of why I can't stand eBay. It's not Ebay, it's humans. Ebay is just an excellent vehicle for the worst human traits. I can't stand humans. ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 4 07:37:45 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:37:45 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120480665.10023.36.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-04 at 04:13 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > There are only 2 boards. The 8" controller is the same as the > non-intellegent 5.25" one. There are notes on the schematic for the link > settings for the FDS (== 8") and MDS (== 5.25") versions. > > > Far as I know, the former board is FM only and can put about 70KB on a > > The 1771 is certainly FM (single density) only. > > > disk, whilst the latter one can do MFM and gets about 240KB on a disk. > > I've not seriously looked at those schematics yet... Not me yet... more interested in their SASI controller at this stage to be honest as I really need a way of getting the 380Z fileserver backed up! > > Actually, info on the various PAL chips would be handy; RML didn't half > > THere were no PALs in the original set of boards (CPU, VDU, hi-res, disk, > etc). WHat there were -- and were to excess -- were small bipolar PROMs. > Those were often colour-coded. That's what I'm thinking of :) I haven't seen their contents noted down anywhere. My programmer here might well handle them, I just don't want to risk toasting one out of a running machine! > > Aha, I've got a 480Z disk unit here - never tried it as I need to sit > > down and figure out the cable wiring which puts a bit of extra time on > > the task. > > It would be useful to know the protocol that the 480Z uses to talk to the > disk unit. From what I remember, though,, it uses the serial chips in > synchronous mode, which means finding another machine that could act as a > disk server would not be totally trivial. Indeed. I suppose given a dump of the ROM out of my 480Z disk unit, plus the schematics for the board, and the 480Z details it would be possible to figure it out - but somewhat time-consuming. I just pulled the lid on my disk unit and it definitely has all the right bits to be the intelligent disk controller; it's just missing all the circuitry to interface to the 380Z bus (it just has all the serial side of things present + the Z80 part of everything) > > that way. Hitting a key on the terminal at system start should be enough > > to wake things up and tell the 380Z to use the terminal as input rather > > than the usual keyboard. Can't remember if there's a way of telling it > > Are you sure about that? I've never seen it documented anywhere. It's in the COS 3.4 Information File - under misc functions (reset and initialisation): "COS checks to see if there is a VDU plugged into the SIO-4 socket. If there is, all subsequent output via the scroller output EMTs is sent to this VDU. Graphical output, such as the front panel, or low or high resolution graphics, still appear on the RML screen. If a character is received from the VDU at 9600 baud, COS also switches the keyboard EMTs to take all subsequent input from the VDU ignoring the RML keyboard." So it should work with an SIO-4 (or presumably 4C). Indeed, we've actually got some Cifer terminals doing nothing which have nice black keyboards very similar in looks to the 380Z ones... The text implies that it's not possible to have a terminal as input-only though; it'll always redirect text output if a terminal's present. How much RML software actually uses the COS routines is another matter - there must be at least some bits and pieces out there that talk to the keyboard / display directly rather than through COS, and those then wouldn't work... > > I'll double check regarding tapes. I've got about half of Bletchley's > > Thanks. But absoutely no hurry -- this is very much a 'to do sometime' > project, and it's been on the list for many years! Heh, I know what you mean! In the case of RML stuff I like to try and keep track of who has what anyway as it's reasonably uncommon stuff. cheers Jules From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Jul 4 08:18:08 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 09:18:08 -0400 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BA7@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BA7@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <42C93710.6070306@atarimuseum.com> James, You just hit the nail on the hit. when the internet caught on, every scumbag in the universe saw a fresh new piece of territory just begging to be used, abused, manipulated and destroyed. The internet, more and more each day becomes more annoyance and less useful due to this pieces of human sh*t that seek to profit from it in the worst possible ways. Curt James Fogg wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>Another fine example of why I can't stand eBay. >> >> > >It's not Ebay, it's humans. Ebay is just an excellent vehicle for the >worst human traits. > >I can't stand humans. > >---- >There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand >binary and those who don't. > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.8/37 - Release Date: 7/1/2005 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 4 09:11:50 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 10:11:50 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <2b541d854d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:22 AM 7/4/05 +0100, Phil wrote: > >Here's a fine example of why I can't stand it. >On Sunday morning I added an item to my watchlist - a Microprofessor MPF-1, >complete, boxed, with manuals. Supposedly perfect condition too. Also checked >that it was still pointed at my Gmail address. It was. The auction was due to >end at 4PM on Sunday (ie. yesterday). > >When did I get the "Item is ending within 5 hours" message? That's right. 5 >minutes ago. Followed by an "Item has ended, YOU LOSE!" message. Fecking >stupid thing. > >And people wonder why I hate ebay. What really pisses me off is that it's >done this to me THREE TIMES this week, to three different email addresses. >Bleagh. I wanted that MPF, too - it only went for ?16 - my max was way higher >than that :( :( :( Don't take this personally BUT: Why didn't you bid your max bid the first time??????? If you had you would have won the item. What is it with all you people that want to wait till the last second to bid and then you whine when don't win. Late messages aren't necessarily E-bays fault. The InterNET is a network of servers, relays, etc and messages can be delayed for many reasons. That's one of the good things about E-bay's system, you don't have to be there or even on-line when the auction nears it's end, the system will do the bidding for you. I NEVER get outbid on things that I really want. I'm sure Al and others can tell you the same thing. You lost because you wanted to play stupid games with E-bay's system! I don't understand why some of ypeople on this list are always complaining about E-bay. Where else do you think you're going to find a complete Microprofessor MPF-1 for ?16 and never leave your desk? If you want bargains you have to go hunt for them or take the occasional one, like this one, that show up on E-bay. If you don't like E-bay's high prices then get off the computer and go start looking in the surplus stores, scrap yards, flea markets, etc etc etc. There are still PLENTY of bargains to be had. I have a LOT of great computers (3x SB-180s, 2x Rubicons, 2x Altairs, 10x Intels, 13x AIM-65s, HP-9100, 4x HP-35 Red Dots, 5x HP-1000s, PDP-8, etc etc etc etc) and NONE of them came from E-bay. I got ALL of them the hard way, by LOOKING! my 2 cents worth, Joe From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 09:29:14 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 09:29:14 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <2b541d854d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Amen and Amen. I sell a lot on E Bay (and buy also) but I have a policy that if there is no bid on my item 6 hours before closing, I pull the item. I will NOT sell it to a sniper who wants to get it for 1 cent over the minimum bid. If there is a bid on it then its a fair auction, but if you watch a real life auction the auctioneer does not say "going, going, oopes theres a bid, gone." After a lat minute bit he will open it up again for more bids. E Bay used to do that back in the beginning. If there was a late bit it automatically extended the time for 5 or 10 minutes. But they dont do that now, so I pull the item if its not getting bids. Another tactic I use is to raise the starting bid at 6 hours till end if there are no bide. This will get some of them off the pot. Now, do I snipe? Yes I do, but I dont bitch when the auction ends early or if someone outbids me or if I forget to come back to the auction and miss the ending. On 7/4/05, Joe R. wrote: > At 10:22 AM 7/4/05 +0100, Phil wrote: > > > > >Here's a fine example of why I can't stand it. > >On Sunday morning I added an item to my watchlist - a Microprofessor MPF-1, > >complete, boxed, with manuals. Supposedly perfect condition too. Also checked > >that it was still pointed at my Gmail address. It was. The auction was due to > >end at 4PM on Sunday (ie. yesterday). > > > >When did I get the "Item is ending within 5 hours" message? That's right. 5 > >minutes ago. Followed by an "Item has ended, YOU LOSE!" message. Fecking > >stupid thing. > > > >And people wonder why I hate ebay. What really pisses me off is that it's > >done this to me THREE TIMES this week, to three different email addresses. > >Bleagh. I wanted that MPF, too - it only went for ?16 - my max was way higher > >than that :( :( :( > > Don't take this personally BUT: Why didn't you bid your max bid the > first time??????? If you had you would have won the item. > > What is it with all you people that want to wait till the last second to > bid and then you whine when don't win. Late messages aren't necessarily > E-bays fault. The InterNET is a network of servers, relays, etc and > messages can be delayed for many reasons. That's one of the good things > about E-bay's system, you don't have to be there or even on-line when the > auction nears it's end, the system will do the bidding for you. I NEVER get > outbid on things that I really want. I'm sure Al and others can tell you > the same thing. You lost because you wanted to play stupid games with > E-bay's system! > > I don't understand why some of ypeople on this list are always > complaining about E-bay. Where else do you think you're going to find a > complete Microprofessor MPF-1 for ?16 and never leave your desk? If you > want bargains you have to go hunt for them or take the occasional one, like > this one, that show up on E-bay. If you don't like E-bay's high prices > then get off the computer and go start looking in the surplus stores, scrap > yards, flea markets, etc etc etc. There are still PLENTY of bargains to be > had. I have a LOT of great computers (3x SB-180s, 2x Rubicons, 2x Altairs, > 10x Intels, 13x AIM-65s, HP-9100, 4x HP-35 Red Dots, 5x HP-1000s, PDP-8, > etc etc etc etc) and NONE of them came from E-bay. I got ALL of them the > hard way, by LOOKING! > > my 2 cents worth, > Joe > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jul 4 10:50:49 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 16:50:49 +0100 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: In message <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> "Joe R." wrote: > What is it with all you people that want to wait till the last second to > bid and then you whine when don't win. I don't wait until the last second. I place a bid about four hours before the auction ends. If it's over my max, I don't bother bidding at all. What's the problem with that?! Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... You can make it foolproof. But you can't make it damn foolproof! From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Jul 4 10:53:17 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 08:53:17 -0700 Subject: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200507040853.17442.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 04 July 2005 07:11, Joe R. wrote: > What is it with all you people that want to wait till the last second to > bid and then you whine when don't win. Late messages aren't necessarily > E-bays fault. The InterNET is a network of servers, relays, etc and > messages can be delayed for many reasons. That's one of the good things > about E-bay's system, you don't have to be there or even on-line when the > auction nears it's end, the system will do the bidding for you. I NEVER get > outbid on things that I really want. I'm sure Al and others can tell you > the same thing. You lost because you wanted to play stupid games with > E-bay's system! > > I don't understand why some of ypeople on this list are always > complaining about E-bay. Where else do you think you're going to find a > complete Microprofessor MPF-1 for ?16 and never leave your desk? If you > want bargains you have to go hunt for them or take the occasional one, like > this one, that show up on E-bay. If you don't like E-bay's high prices > then get off the computer and go start looking in the surplus stores, scrap > yards, flea markets, etc etc etc. There are still PLENTY of bargains to be > had. I have a LOT of great computers (3x SB-180s, 2x Rubicons, 2x Altairs, > 10x Intels, 13x AIM-65s, HP-9100, 4x HP-35 Red Dots, 5x HP-1000s, PDP-8, > etc etc etc etc) and NONE of them came from E-bay. I got ALL of them the > hard way, by LOOKING! > > my 2 cents worth, > Joe I'm with Joe on this. I'm a huge fan of eBay - it has enabled me to contact and purchase/sell items all over the world. It is a fair system - and certainly equal in "fairness" to any sealed bid auctions that I also participate in. It's also a mystery to me why anyone complains about not getting an Email from eBay. I never count on Emails for anything that is time sensitive. We are dealing with a huge network that does not have any SLA (Service Level Agreement) for response time or latency guarantees. There are lots of ways to "play" eBay as a buyer - and if you really want something you merely bid the maximum amount you're willing to pay for an item - and the only way anyone will beat you is by bidding more - whether by "standard" bidding or sniping. I also practice sniping in addition to "regular" bidding - because it feels more to me like a sealed bid auction - and I've worked sealed bid auctions for more years than eBay has been around! Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 11:04:32 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:04:32 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: One problem.....I have gotten so irritated by last minute bids.... when after all I paid for 7 days of bids....that I now pull any item that does NOT have a bid at 6 Hours before the end (that misses you). I will also sometimes up the ante rather than pull the item, sometimes by 5X. This is to discourage last minute bidders. This really works if you put the bidders on notice in your description that you plan on doing this. They, then, will decide wheather to "S*** or get off the pot" as we used to say at the poker table in the old days. On 7/4/05, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> > "Joe R." wrote: > > > What is it with all you people that want to wait till the last second to > > bid and then you whine when don't win. > > I don't wait until the last second. I place a bid about four hours before the > auction ends. If it's over my max, I don't bother bidding at all. > What's the problem with that?! > > Later. > -- > Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, > philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI > ... You can make it foolproof. But you can't make it damn foolproof! > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From mbbrutman at brutman.com Mon Jul 4 11:29:10 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 11:29:10 -0500 Subject: Swapping Hi density drives for low density drives In-Reply-To: <200507041607.j64G56Aq004839@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507041607.j64G56Aq004839@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42C963D6.5050700@brutman.com> Hi Grumpy :-) On the Windows 2K machine I used /F:720 to get a 720K format. On the Linux machine I used /dev/fd0D720, which should be equivalent. It was definitely a 720K format, as other parts of the copied DOS 3.3 diskette were readable. Only parts of track zero were consistently bad across the multiple diskettes, and they were not flagged as bad on the other machines. Even when formatting on the Jr (booted with the original DOS diskette and trying to format double density) the format fails. I wasn't aware of DOS 3.2 and 3.3 falsely reporting media problems when straddling a 64K boundary. I wasn't running with TSRs, but the Jr has timing problems of it's own. I don't think this was the problem though - DOS 3.3 was fine. So it still looks like a double density diskette prepared in a 1.44MB drive works fine on modern machines, but isn't quite right when the 1.44MB drive is running on an old controller. Like a timing issue. Double density diskettes cut on genuine 720K drives work fine. I'm thinking of getting a special breed of Teac 1.44MB. It has a different model number, and it has jumpers and a modification procedure published by Teac to make it a substitute for an original 720K drive. That would be an interesting experiment. From marvin at rain.org Mon Jul 4 11:32:19 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 09:32:19 -0700 Subject: E-bay complaints Message-ID: <42C96493.1C70AEA5@rain.org> What I don't understand is why most people don't take a look at the Vintage Computer Marketplace on a regular basis. I just sold an MPF-1 on VCM (http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/) for $20.00. Sure, I could have probably gotten more for it on Ebay, but why not list stuff *FIRST* on VCM with a reasonable price that sellers can live with????? And once the ad copy and photo(s) are taken, it is trivial to move the listing over to Ebay if it doesn't sell on VCM. And FWIW Ebay does not always bring the best pricing. An example would be an Altair 8800 that I needed to sell for expenses that sold for $1500 a year or so ago. Considering that I had gone through it and made sure everything worked, and the unit was in excellent condition cosmetically and had the original manual, it probably was worth closer to $2000. Ebay is the lazy way of retail selling without doing research on what something is worth. And taking advantage (in some cases) of people with more money than brains. And I couldn't agree more with Joe's comments; there is a LOT of stuff out there for anyone who takes the time to develop a network and sources. As one example, I would have never gotten the worlds largest supply of existing Polymorphic software, documentations, equipment, etc. without the network I have in place. Nor would I (in years past) have aquired some 50 coinop arcade games at no charge (most are now gone.) > I don't understand why some of ypeople on this list are always > complaining about E-bay. Where else do you think you're going to find a > complete Microprofessor MPF-1 for ?16 and never leave your desk? If you > want bargains you have to go hunt for them or take the occasional one, like > this one, that show up on E-bay. If you don't like E-bay's high prices > then get off the computer and go start looking in the surplus stores, scrap > yards, flea markets, etc etc etc. There are still PLENTY of bargains to be > had. I have a LOT of great computers (3x SB-180s, 2x Rubicons, 2x Altairs, > 10x Intels, 13x AIM-65s, HP-9100, 4x HP-35 Red Dots, 5x HP-1000s, PDP-8, > etc etc etc etc) and NONE of them came from E-bay. I got ALL of them the > hard way, by LOOKING! > > my 2 cents worth, > Joe > From melamy at earthlink.net Mon Jul 4 11:31:34 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:31:34 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> if you would set the starting price to what you wanted instead of trying to save money on listing fees, then you would not have to play games. You have decided to make life more difficult for you on eBay. It is not the late bidders or eBay that has the problem. I have gone on eBay, done a new type of search, found and then bid on items that were down to their last minutes. You technique keeps people from finding the item at the last minute. At 12:04 PM 07/04/2005, you wrote: >One problem.....I have gotten so irritated by last minute bids.... >when after all I paid for 7 days of bids....that I now pull any item >that does NOT have a bid at 6 Hours before the end (that misses you). >I will also sometimes up the ante rather than pull the item, sometimes >by 5X. This is to discourage last minute bidders. This really works >if you put the bidders on notice in your description that you plan on >doing this. They, then, will decide wheather to "S*** or get off the >pot" as we used to say at the poker table in the old days. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 4 11:48:34 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:48:34 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050704124834.00a5ebf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:50 PM 7/4/05 +0100, Phil wrote: >In message <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> > "Joe R." wrote: > >> What is it with all you people that want to wait till the last second to >> bid and then you whine when don't win. > >I don't wait until the last second. I place a bid about four hours before the >auction ends. If it's over my max, I don't bother bidding at all. >What's the problem with that?! The problem is that it's too easy to forget to bid! What's the point in waiting till four hours (or four days, or four minutes or four seconds) before the end? If its not over your max then bid ANYTIME. If you bid early, *friends* will see your bid and not bid against you AND you don't have to worry about forgetting to bid. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 4 12:03:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:03:47 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050704130347.00a5d710@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:31 PM 7/4/05 -0400, you wrote: >if you would set the starting price to what you wanted instead of trying to >save money on listing fees, then you would not have to play games. What does the starting price have to do with people bidding at the last minute?? I don't see any connection. I always start my auctions cheap. First I don't see any reason to enrich E-bay any more than necessary but also I frequently don't know the value of an item and it's simple to start it cheap and let the market place set the price. I've used E-bay for almost ten years and I've watched the prices of certain items closely and I've frequently found tht people will not bid on items that start high even though the same item will bring more than the same high starting price when started at a lower price and allowed to escalate naturally. You have >decided to make life more difficult for you on eBay. It is not the late >bidders or eBay that has the problem. It IS the late bidding that was the problem in this case!!!! He waited too long and forgot to bid! Explain how the starting price had any bearing on that if you can. > >I have gone on eBay, done a new type of search, found and then bid on items >that were down to their last minutes. You technique keeps people from >finding the item at the last minute. You said "done a new type of search,". If you had done the same search earlier you would have found exactly the same items! Joe > >At 12:04 PM 07/04/2005, you wrote: >>One problem.....I have gotten so irritated by last minute bids.... >>when after all I paid for 7 days of bids....that I now pull any item >>that does NOT have a bid at 6 Hours before the end (that misses you). >>I will also sometimes up the ante rather than pull the item, sometimes >>by 5X. This is to discourage last minute bidders. This really works >>if you put the bidders on notice in your description that you plan on >>doing this. They, then, will decide wheather to "S*** or get off the >>pot" as we used to say at the poker table in the old days. > > > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jul 4 12:13:06 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:13:06 +0100 Subject: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: <200507040853.17442.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200507040853.17442.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <7a6f48854d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <200507040853.17442.lbickley at bickleywest.com> Lyle Bickley wrote: > - and the only way anyone will beat you is by bidding more - whether by > "standard" bidding or sniping. What really - and I mean REALLY - annoys me are the prats that snipe items for some stupid price, then never pay. I've had to deal with one of them before. NPB'd him and got a wonderful email back - "You f*ing scammed me, i paid, i paid, scammer, f*er, your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries", et cetera. Last I heard he was looking for a new ISP. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Give your child mental blocks for Christmas. From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 12:25:10 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:25:10 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: The starting price does not affect the cost of the auction to the seller, its the selling price that determines the cost. So, its not a matter of saving money, its a matter of scaring off bidders. I like to keep the starting bid at $1 to encourage people to bid but when it doesnt encourage them to bid I say f*** you and pull it. No, it doent keep them from finding them at the last minute, they are just not there to find. With 7 days to look, I dont think I miss very many because they are late to the party. If you are a dollar short and 6 hours late, tough luck. Do you think a real auction house would hold the bidding while someone ran from the parking lot to try to get in a bid at the last minute? I have had items with 30 or more people "watching" them. If you have never sold items you may not know that the seller can see how many people are "watching" the item. When you have 30 people just watching for 5 days and no one bidding I have no sympathy for them when I snatch the item back. It costs me the 35 cent listing fee but thats better than spending 30 minutes packing something for some A**H*** that bid $1 with 10 seconds to go. NOW, "Do I snipe?", sure, but I sure dont bitch when it doesnt work! On 7/4/05, Steve Thatcher wrote: > if you would set the starting price to what you wanted instead of trying to > save money on listing fees, then you would not have to play games. You have > decided to make life more difficult for you on eBay. It is not the late > bidders or eBay that has the problem. > > I have gone on eBay, done a new type of search, found and then bid on items > that were down to their last minutes. You technique keeps people from > finding the item at the last minute. > > At 12:04 PM 07/04/2005, you wrote: > >One problem.....I have gotten so irritated by last minute bids.... > >when after all I paid for 7 days of bids....that I now pull any item > >that does NOT have a bid at 6 Hours before the end (that misses you). > >I will also sometimes up the ante rather than pull the item, sometimes > >by 5X. This is to discourage last minute bidders. This really works > >if you put the bidders on notice in your description that you plan on > >doing this. They, then, will decide wheather to "S*** or get off the > >pot" as we used to say at the poker table in the old days. > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From jhoger at pobox.com Mon Jul 4 12:26:44 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 10:26:44 -0700 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050704124834.00a5ebf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050704124834.00a5ebf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1120498004.25189.63.camel@aragorn> On Mon, 2005-07-04 at 12:48 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > What's the point in waiting till four hours (or four days, or four > minutes or four seconds) before the end? If its not over your max then bid > ANYTIME. If you bid early, *friends* will see your bid and not bid against > you AND you don't have to worry about forgetting to bid. > > Joe > > > BOBW: make min bid early marking auction to your friends, thereby prevent pulling item, changing the ad, changing the price by seller. Then snipe bid it last 10 seconds. -- John. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jul 4 12:23:13 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:23:13 +0100 Subject: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: <42C96493.1C70AEA5@rain.org> References: <42C96493.1C70AEA5@rain.org> Message-ID: In message <42C96493.1C70AEA5 at rain.org> Marvin Johnston wrote: > I just sold an MPF-1 on VCM (http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/) > for $20.00. Sure, I could have probably gotten more for it on Ebay, but > why not list stuff *FIRST* on VCM with a reasonable price that sellers > can live with????? And once the ad copy and photo(s) are taken, it is > trivial to move the listing over to Ebay if it doesn't sell on VCM. I actually saw that one first - then spotted the "SOLD" tag next to it. I would have paid that in a heartbeat... > And I couldn't agree more with Joe's comments; there is a LOT of stuff > out there for anyone who takes the time to develop a network and > sources. As one example, I would have never gotten the worlds largest > supply of existing Polymorphic software, documentations, equipment, etc. > without the network I have in place. Nor would I (in years past) have > aquired some 50 coinop arcade games at no charge (most are now gone.) I've tried looking around here - talked to friends, mentioned a few of my hobbies, and all I ended up with was 10 useless 486-class PCs. Someone literally drove a pickup truck up to the garage door while I was out and dumped the whole lot on the drive. Soaked, mangled and basically useless. Very annoying, especially when I said "if it runs DOS or Windows, I'm not interested, call me and ask first." *sigh* I did thank them for the gesture, found two working hard drives (the rest were either gone or dead) and stole the SIMMs, but the machines ended up in a skip. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Get 'em by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow. From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 12:32:37 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:32:37 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <1120498004.25189.63.camel@aragorn> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050704124834.00a5ebf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1120498004.25189.63.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: On 7/4/05, John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > BOBW: make min bid early marking auction to your friends, thereby > prevent pulling item, changing the ad, changing the price by seller. > Then snipe bid it last 10 seconds. > > -- John. Yep, thats the way to do it. That would foil me completely, thats the way I do it. But as far as I am concerned, as a seller, if I get a bid early I dont cvare if it is small, it still puts everyone else on notice that someone else wants it and the bidding then will be "fair and ballanced." -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jul 4 13:00:38 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:00:38 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > The starting price does not affect the cost of the auction to the > seller, its the selling price that determines the cost. So, its not a > matter of saving money, its a matter of scaring off bidders. I like > to keep the starting bid at $1 to encourage people to bid but when it > doesnt encourage them to bid I say f*** you and pull it. And what was your eBay ID again? Doc From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 13:01:52 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:01:52 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: Why? On 7/4/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > > The starting price does not affect the cost of the auction to the > > seller, its the selling price that determines the cost. So, its not a > > matter of saving money, its a matter of scaring off bidders. I like > > to keep the starting bid at $1 to encourage people to bid but when it > > doesnt encourage them to bid I say f*** you and pull it. > > And what was your eBay ID again? > > > Doc > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 4 13:04:44 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050704124834.00a5ebf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > What's the point in waiting till four hours (or four days, or four > minutes or four seconds) before the end? If its not over your max then bid > ANYTIME. If you bid early, *friends* will see your bid and not bid against > you AND you don't have to worry about forgetting to bid. Don't worry about friends, worry about the competition. Yes, I check the bids of the competition, to see what they found and I missed. I think I have some pretty good, well refined searches on Ebay, but I am always spotting things the searches missed that the competition did not. By sniping, I can somewhat reduce my chances of having the competition do the same to me. I have snuck thru a few awesome deals for things on Ebay, perhaps due to not being spotted by others. Yes, competition - the collecting world has always had it. Always will. Live with it, it is part of the game. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From news at computercollector.com Mon Jul 4 13:13:08 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:13:08 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507041818.j64IIvcL052728@keith.ezwind.net> There are certainly some big problems with eBay's system. But overall, I agree with the prior posting (I forget whose) noting that no place else can we find so much stuff without leaving our desks. That is one heck of a good deal. There are several hundred to maybe a thousand of us here on classiccmp. There could easily be twice or ten times as many collectors who have no idea classiccmp, vcf, etc. exist. I'd bet there are also thousands of people who just desire one particular item for some particular reason (technical, sentiment, etc.), and they just go on eBay, get that item, and then walk away. Those people aren't any less human - or less collector - than the rest of us. Now, eventually, those people will Google for some help on their new vintage machine. When they do, they'll promptly find our resources, like classiccmp, vcf, old-computers.com, and countless machine-specific sites. So while it's absolutely true that some big parts of eBay do suck, I'd argue that some parts of ALL large systems suck, but that we just happen to be a group affected by these parts rather acutely. And I'd argue that eBay probably brings just as many new collectors into our hobby and to our preferred resources, than it could turn away. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jul 4 13:04:04 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:04:04 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: <200507040853.17442.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200507040853.17442.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050704130313.05544928@mail> At 10:53 AM 7/4/2005, Lyle Bickley wrote: >I also practice sniping in addition to "regular" bidding - because it feels >more to me like a sealed bid auction - and I've worked sealed bid auctions >for more years than eBay has been around! I'd appreciate some pointers on auction technique for sealed bids. eBay theory has been worked to death here. - John From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 4 13:17:17 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <200507041818.j64IIvcL052728@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > I'd bet there are also thousands of people who > just desire one particular item for some particular reason (technical, > sentiment, etc.), and they just go on eBay, get that item, and then walk > away. Those people aren't any less human - or less collector - than the > rest of us. There is also the "cross collecting" effect, well known in the antiques business. An item may "fall into" two or more completely unrelated classes equally well. For example, the Hello Kitty laptop would appeal to vintage computer collectors AND Hello Kitty collectors equally. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jul 4 13:20:56 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:20:56 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <42C97E08.50404@mdrconsult.com> Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > Why? I typically have 15-20 watched items on my list. I *might* buy 2 items a month, so you can see that I don't bid on everything that I track. I very often have 2 or 3 items that end within a few hours, and either can use or can afford only one of them. Duplicate items, short toy budget, whatever. In those cases, I *can't* enter a bid till I know I want that particular item, and that's often in the last 20 minutes of the auction. I asked about your ID primarily because in the above scenario, your items wouldn't be worth watching. Partly out of pure curiosity. Sniping *can* benefit the buyer, price-wise. However, your assumption that late bids are always about the money just doesn't hold water. Doc > On 7/4/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > >>Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: >> >> >>>The starting price does not affect the cost of the auction to the >>>seller, its the selling price that determines the cost. So, its not a >>>matter of saving money, its a matter of scaring off bidders. I like >>>to keep the starting bid at $1 to encourage people to bid but when it >>>doesnt encourage them to bid I say f*** you and pull it. >> >> And what was your eBay ID again? From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 4 13:20:07 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:20:07 +0100 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c580c5$0309be50$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >The starting price does not affect the cost of the auction >to the seller, its the selling price that determines the cost. On ebay.co.uk the listing fee *does* depend on the starting price. IIRC ?0.99 and below is ?0.15, ?1-?4.99 is ?0.20 etc. >If you have never sold items you may not know that the seller >can see how many people are "watching" the item. Although not who is watching .... I add anything interesting that I come across to my watch list. It might be because I wish to bid, it might be because I'm interested in seeing what it goes for, it might be because I need this particular type of widget and I find the watch list a convenient way to keep track of multiple items before deciding which one to bid on (and which one to bid on next if I lose ...). If I'm really going to bid, I'll probably line something up in a bidding tool and just "let it ride" without ever bothering to "watch" the item. Antonio From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 13:32:08 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:32:08 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <200507041818.j64IIvcL052728@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507041818.j64IIvcL052728@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Well, as a collector I am not happy that everyone knows what something is worth. Cummon, who among us would not buy omething below market if we could? And E Bay has done a lot to teach the world the value of items that were once thought to be trash. This causes my collecting costs to go up. I dont like that. BUT.................... As a seller, I like having a huge market to sell to intead of just the local market (Which is tinny here in south Texas where they think Hi Tech is refering to the Model T automobile) I also like a market that is educated in the value of my items so I dont have to convince them. Thee two views are conflicting, but as both a buyer and a seller I have to ballance both views, and I think in the long run, because of the exposure , E-Bay helps both. I have some issues with them, such a their ban on Nazi paraphenalia, which I could understand if it was just "modern" or Just reproductions they were against, but something like a genuine item from the Third Reich, is a true collectable even if you dont agree with the politics. Yet they ban them based on the philosophy. Why not ban Christian paraphenalia baed on philosophy...etc. etc., who is next??? On 7/4/05, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > There are certainly some big problems with eBay's system. > > But overall, I agree with the prior posting (I forget whose) noting that no > place else can we find so much stuff without leaving our desks. That is one > heck of a good deal. > > There are several hundred to maybe a thousand of us here on classiccmp. > There could easily be twice or ten times as many collectors who have no idea > classiccmp, vcf, etc. exist. I'd bet there are also thousands of people who > just desire one particular item for some particular reason (technical, > sentiment, etc.), and they just go on eBay, get that item, and then walk > away. Those people aren't any less human - or less collector - than the > rest of us. > > Now, eventually, those people will Google for some help on their new vintage > machine. When they do, they'll promptly find our resources, like > classiccmp, vcf, old-computers.com, and countless machine-specific sites. > > So while it's absolutely true that some big parts of eBay do suck, I'd argue > that some parts of ALL large systems suck, but that we just happen to be a > group affected by these parts rather acutely. And I'd argue that eBay > probably brings just as many new collectors into our hobby and to our > preferred resources, than it could turn away. > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 4 13:36:20 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:36:20 +0000 Subject: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: References: <42C96493.1C70AEA5@rain.org> Message-ID: <1120502180.10023.68.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-04 at 18:23 +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <42C96493.1C70AEA5 at rain.org> > Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > I just sold an MPF-1 on VCM (http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/) > > for $20.00. Sure, I could have probably gotten more for it on Ebay, but > > why not list stuff *FIRST* on VCM with a reasonable price that sellers > > can live with????? And once the ad copy and photo(s) are taken, it is > > trivial to move the listing over to Ebay if it doesn't sell on VCM. > > I actually saw that one first - then spotted the "SOLD" tag next to it. I > would have paid that in a heartbeat... > > > And I couldn't agree more with Joe's comments; there is a LOT of stuff > > out there for anyone who takes the time to develop a network and > > sources. As one example, I would have never gotten the worlds largest > > supply of existing Polymorphic software, documentations, equipment, etc. > > without the network I have in place. Nor would I (in years past) have > > aquired some 50 coinop arcade games at no charge (most are now gone.) > > I've tried looking around here - talked to friends, mentioned a few of my > hobbies, and all I ended up with was 10 useless 486-class PCs. Most of the stuff I get (albeit for the museum, not personally) comes from local usenet groups, or the university - it's at the stage now where the local population seem to know to chuck things this way. I've only recently joined the local freecycle group, so I'm not sure how good that'll be in terms of stuff yet. Landfill / scrapyards in the UK don't seem to be anything like their US counterparts according to what I've seen on this list - there just aren't items there for the taking. I suspect a *lot* of smaller machines are tucked away in lofts, but the big stuff's reasonably hard to come by over here - although we'll usually get offered one 19" rack-sized machine a month on average, sometimes from companies and sometimes from collectors (or former collectors) who want the space back. There is stuff out there anyway - you just need to give people a prod every once in a while and get yourself noticed as someone who can give this stuff a home. cheers Jules From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 13:43:54 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:43:54 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <42C97E08.50404@mdrconsult.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> <42C97E08.50404@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: As I said, loosing one bid out of millions is not my worry. I might just as likely lose a bid because someone was looking 10 minutes BEFORE I got it listed. But I cant worry over that one either!!!! Its just a matter of sliding the window one way or the other. I wont spend my time trying to satisfy one bidder in millions. As to how you would recognise my auction, a I said earlier, I tell you up front that I will do that. Its no surprise. If you see my ad you will be able to bid on it and you will see that I plan on changing it if no one bids. Also, if you dont know enough to know you are interested to the extent of the value of a minimum bid of $1, then I surely dont think you will change your mind 20 minutes before the auction ends. So I wont miss you. Go ahead and bit $1 and if you end up with it you rot a bargain...or at least if you dont want the item you can send me the $1 and I wont ship it to save you the shipping cost. In a real auction you would have to register, give a credit card number or deposit check and get a number before you were allowed to place the first bid!!! And if you were running in from the parking lot they would not hold things while you put up the deposit or credit card. Please tell me how sniping helps the seller????? On 7/4/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > > Why? > > I typically have 15-20 watched items on my list. I *might* buy 2 > items a month, so you can see that I don't bid on everything that I > track. I very often have 2 or 3 items that end within a few hours, and > either can use or can afford only one of them. Duplicate items, short > toy budget, whatever. In those cases, I *can't* enter a bid till I know > I want that particular item, and that's often in the last 20 minutes of > the auction. > > I asked about your ID primarily because in the above scenario, your > items wouldn't be worth watching. Partly out of pure curiosity. > > Sniping *can* benefit the buyer, price-wise. However, your > assumption that late bids are always about the money just doesn't hold > water. > > > Doc > > > On 7/4/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > >>Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > >> > >> > >>>The starting price does not affect the cost of the auction to the > >>>seller, its the selling price that determines the cost. So, its not a > >>>matter of saving money, its a matter of scaring off bidders. I like > >>>to keep the starting bid at $1 to encourage people to bid but when it > >>>doesnt encourage them to bid I say f*** you and pull it. > >> > >> And what was your eBay ID again? > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 4 13:49:09 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:49:09 -0600 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BA7@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <42C984A5.1080507@jetnet.ab.ca> James Fogg wrote: > ---- > There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand > binary and those who don't. You forgot unary??? 11 :) From redodd at comcast.net Mon Jul 4 14:04:23 2005 From: redodd at comcast.net (Ralph E. Dodd) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:04:23 -0400 Subject: TRS80 Model 1, monitor, expansion interface, 2 Percom drives, & system desk avail in N.J. Message-ID: <011f01c580cb$37d48c40$6401a8c0@mainpc> Hello, I have obtained a TRS80 Model 1 setup that needs some work. The computer has video problems and a broken 24pin cable that connects from the component side of the mobo to the little board that sits under the numeric keypad. I broke 2 pins off the connector when I reseated all the chips & connectors. This is a well used system with the plastic case showing lots of wear around the keyboard. I didn't do anything with the expansion interface. The 2 drives are single sided because I can see pressure pads. The Tandy system desk is in nice shape. It is located in Fairfield, N.J. Also included are some cassettes, original TRSDOS 2.1-2.3 manual (poor shape) & 2.3 disk, copy of NewDos80 manual, copies of Visicalc dics & disk, copies of terminal control program & electric pencil docs, original NewDos+ docs in good shape, original DosPlus 3.4D manual & disk, and many TRS80 Monthly Magazines. A lot of the documentation is wavy from moisture and the disks are similar. If anyone is interested in restoring this system, "Lets make a deal". Thanks a lot. Ralph From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Jul 4 14:19:37 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:19:37 -0700 Subject: any NeWS software still around? In-Reply-To: <200507041607.j64G56As004839@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507041607.j64G56As004839@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <538992fb7389bea4fd2367d859104301@valleyimplants.com> I've been doing some poking around to find software that runs on the NeWS window system, without much luck (most of what I found was confined to Sun demo binaries) Does anyone know of any archives of NeWS sources? I heard reference to something called GreatNeWS/HyperNeWS but wasn't able to find it either. I know NeWS is somewhat out of favor, but it would be nice to have my IRIS do something other than text-mode apps on 4Sight. Scott Quinn From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jul 4 15:07:21 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 16:07:21 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> <42C97E08.50404@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <009601c580d3$fdeeaf20$5b7da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 2:43 PM Subject: Re: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" > As I said, loosing one bid out of millions is not my worry. I might > just as likely lose a bid because someone was looking 10 minutes > BEFORE I got it listed. But I cant worry over that one either!!!! > Its just a matter of sliding the window one way or the other. I wont > spend my time trying to satisfy one bidder in millions. > > As to how you would recognise my auction, a I said earlier, I tell you > up front that I will do that. Its no surprise. If you see my ad you > will be able to bid on it and you will see that I plan on changing it > if no one bids. > > Also, if you dont know enough to know you are interested to the extent > of the value of a minimum bid of $1, then I surely dont think you > will change your mind 20 minutes before the auction ends. So I wont > miss you. Go ahead and bit $1 and if you end up with it you rot a > bargain...or at least if you dont want the item you can send me the $1 > and I wont ship it to save you the shipping cost. > > In a real auction you would have to register, give a credit card > number or deposit check and get a number before you were allowed to > place the first bid!!! And if you were running in from the parking > lot they would not hold things while you put up the deposit or credit > card. > > Please tell me how sniping helps the seller????? > > On 7/4/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > > Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > > > > Why? > > > > I typically have 15-20 watched items on my list. I *might* buy 2 > > items a month, so you can see that I don't bid on everything that I > > track. I very often have 2 or 3 items that end within a few hours, and > > either can use or can afford only one of them. Duplicate items, short > > toy budget, whatever. In those cases, I *can't* enter a bid till I know > > I want that particular item, and that's often in the last 20 minutes of > > the auction. > > > > I asked about your ID primarily because in the above scenario, your > > items wouldn't be worth watching. Partly out of pure curiosity. > > > > Sniping *can* benefit the buyer, price-wise. However, your > > assumption that late bids are always about the money just doesn't hold > > water. > > > > > > Doc > > > > > On 7/4/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > > > >>Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>>The starting price does not affect the cost of the auction to the > > >>>seller, its the selling price that determines the cost. So, its not a > > >>>matter of saving money, its a matter of scaring off bidders. I like > > >>>to keep the starting bid at $1 to encourage people to bid but when it > > >>>doesnt encourage them to bid I say f*** you and pull it. > > >> > > >> And what was your eBay ID again? > > > > > > > > > -- > Jim Isbell Some of you people crack me up with the ebay games you play. I track quite a few auctions that I may or may not bid on, it is called research. You have to technically know about the item you bid on so that if the item is misrepresented or incomplete you know about it. It is also nice to have some kind of background as to what that particular item goes for on average. Sometimes I bid early and sometimes I wait for the last 5 minutes depending on the popularity of the item and on what else I am bidding on. There is no point putting an early minimum bid of lets say $1 on an item you know will go for $200. To be honest early bidding is stupid just for the fact that shills like jacking the price up to see what your maximum bid is (and if don't get into a bidding war they just relist the same item again). The people selling bulk items have a good strategy, they have reasonable buy it now pricing and people snap those up as needed. Anyway for the sellers who think they have something rare, there are very few items that will not pop up again every 5-6 months (hell could be the same item for all I know). I spend what an item is worth to ME, I could care less what the seller thinks it is worth. If an item goes for the minimum bid (I have won quite a few that way) I expect the seller to ship it. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Jul 4 15:25:02 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 16:25:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <200507041818.j64IIvcL052728@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507041818.j64IIvcL052728@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > So while it's absolutely true that some big parts of eBay do suck, I'd argue > that some parts of ALL large systems suck, but that we just happen to be a > group affected by these parts rather acutely. And I'd argue that eBay > probably brings just as many new collectors into our hobby and to our > preferred resources, than it could turn away. I live in a relatively isolated area of Pennsylvania, smack dab in the center of the state, equally inconvenient from everywhere else. There are no major computer recyclers in the area, no high tech junkyards, and relatively few big businesses that might be getting rid of "big iron". The only resources available to me as a (amateur) collector are mailing lists such as this, Freecycle and MARCH, and the surplus and salvage center at the university. And Ebay, of course. I have picked up a couple of 8-bit systems on Ebay, by biding my time and waiting for the right system/price to come along. I don't get crazy with my maximum bid and if it goes over, something else will come along. The prices are going up, though. Big iron fascinates me, particularly the control and maintenance panels from the old systems. It used to be that you'd see these panels going on Ebay for what I consider to be reasonable prices, considering that I have no other access to such items. These days, the prices are completely out of the ballpark for my price cap, primarily due to one or two buyers who seem to have unlimited budgets for such things, and who buy everything in sight. Yes, there's a lot we can complain about Ebay, but for people in the sticks (like me), it's one of the few resources available. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 15:39:21 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:39:21 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <009601c580d3$fdeeaf20$5b7da418@game> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> <42C97E08.50404@mdrconsult.com> <009601c580d3$fdeeaf20$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: Sometimes it really cracks me up that people dont read what is written...I assume that is the case since I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are intelegent and can understand it if they had read it. On 7/4/05, Teo Zenios wrote: > If an item goes for the minimum bid (I have won quite a > few that way) I expect the seller to ship it. You completely missed the point!! I said, that you could bid the nimimum bid of $1 (to insure that the item would not be withdrawn) and if you got it it was a bargain. BUT...if you got a 3 ton albatros and decided it wasnt a bargain becaue of the shipping cost, then you could send the seller a $1 bill and say, "Dont ship it" and you are only out a buck. If you dont think you want it worth a buck, please dont bug me with your bids or complaints when I withdraw the item. I have never listed anything worth less than a buck...and never will. -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From david_comley at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 15:41:08 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <009601c580d3$fdeeaf20$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: <20050704204108.86490.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Teo Zenios wrote: > I spend what an item is worth to ME, I could care > less what the seller > thinks it is worth. If an item goes for the minimum > bid (I have won quite a > few that way) I expect the seller to ship it. > > Agreed. To avoid disappointment I have two basic rules for ebay purchases: i) I bid what I am willing to pay. If the bidding exceeds that value, then I walk away. I gave up sniping a long time ago. Complete waste of rations and frequently disappoints. ii) I never bid on anything that has 'Rare', 'Ultra rare', 'GOLD' or exclamation marks in the title. Who gives a monkey's if something has gold in it ? I'm going to plug the thing in and run it, not wear it round my neck. Anything else falls under the general rule of caveat emptor. I have an obligation as a buyer to adequately research anything I bid on before I start the process. Dave __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 4 16:33:27 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:33:27 -0700 Subject: LGP-30 Message-ID: John Bohner got it.. I know he's a big fan of the G-15 and friends. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5784697941 I'll have to put the pics up for it, it was REALLY nice, full docs, and software. Hopefully I can get copies from John at some point. From cannings at earthlink.net Mon Jul 4 16:39:29 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:39:29 -0700 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BA7@sbs.jdfogg.com> <42C984A5.1080507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000901c580e0$dba1f0a0$6401a8c0@hal9000> And you must not forget "urinary" which is people who like to "piss" and moan ... regards, Steven C > James Fogg wrote: > > > ---- > > There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand > > binary and those who don't. > > You forgot unary??? > 11 > :) > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 4 16:38:52 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Swapping Hi density drives for low density drives In-Reply-To: <42C963D6.5050700@brutman.com> References: <200507041607.j64G56Aq004839@dewey.classiccmp.org> <42C963D6.5050700@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20050704140954.Y64497@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Hi Grumpy :-) > On the Windows 2K machine I used /F:720 to get a 720K format. Good On XP, you'll have to switch to /T:80/N:9 (incomplete support of /F: ) Also, of course, be sure to include /U in your FORMAT command line, or it will leave existing [wrong?] format on the disk. For the Jr to properly recognize/handle 720K, you'll need to include DEVICE = DRIVER.SYS /F:2 in CONFIG.SYS when booting the Jr.. On machines with NON-IBM BIOS, you can usually get away with DRIVPARM instead. > I wasn't aware of DOS 3.2 and 3.3 falsely reporting media problems when > straddling a 64K boundary. I wasn't running with TSRs, but the Jr has > timing problems of it's own. I don't think this was the problem though > - DOS 3.3 was fine. FORMAT doesn't properly handle errcode 9 from Int13h. Although DMA can not straddle a 64K boundary, FORMAT makes no effort to check/move the buffer. (As Tony says, "They did WHAT??") If you are getting "bad media" messages CONSISTENTLY from FORMAT, load or remove a TSR or a device driver, to move the buffer. > So it still looks like a double density diskette prepared in a 1.44MB > drive works fine on modern machines, but isn't quite right when the > 1.44MB drive is running on an old controller. Like a timing issue. > Double density diskettes cut on genuine 720K drives work fine. Are you bulk erasing the diskettes? FORMAT often fails to wipe out all residual formatting, particularly on track 0. HOWZBOUT: If you FORMAT on a real 720K drive, does read/write work OK? > I'm thinking of getting a special breed of Teac 1.44MB. It has a > different model number, and it has jumpers and a modification procedure > published by Teac to make it a substitute for an original 720K drive. > That would be an interesting experiment. Aren't there any 720K drives around? The Jr works very nicely with SA465, Teac55F, etc. drives to give 5.25" 720K (like the JX model!) using DOS 3.20, 3.3x, or SOME OEM versions of MS-DOS 2.11. If you are using the original godawful Qume 142 drives, then you may need to mess with Int1Eh, or run DOS 2.10. (Those POS drives have timing problems - they take so long to step that most OS's will time-out waiting for them) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 16:40:13 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050704214013.93656.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > Amen and Amen. > > I sell a lot on E Bay (and buy also) but I have a > policy that if there > is no bid on my item 6 hours before closing, I pull > the item. I will > NOT sell it to a sniper who wants to get it for 1 > cent over the > minimum bid. If there is a bid on it then its a > fair auction, but if > you watch a real life auction the auctioneer does > not say "going, > going, oopes theres a bid, gone." After a lat > minute bit he will > open it up again for more bids. E Bay used to do > that back in the > beginning. If there was a late bit it automatically > extended the time > for 5 or 10 minutes. But they dont do that now, so > I pull the item if > its not getting bids. Another tactic I use is to > raise the starting > bid at 6 hours till end if there are no bide. This > will get some of > them off the pot. > Wow, that's quite a bizarre policy, you seem to be jumping through hoops with no obvious gain, but to each his own I guess. The ebay auction system, for all practical purposes, is like a sealed bid auction. In this type of auction bidders view the auction item for, say a week, and then submit a written sealed bid which is opened at the end of the auction. For an ebay auction, a sealed bid auction is effectively created when everyone snipes at the last second (with no time left to rebid). More specifically an ebay auction is like a Vickrey auction, where the winning bidder pays the seconds highest bid(that is a second-price sealed-bid auction). So it seems you are trying to alter ebay auction system into a traditional open auction, fine, but studies have shown that the final auction price is about the same in either type of auction, that is, you are doing alot of work for nothing, other then satisfying some perceived emotional gain, which I guess maybe is something. I think if look at an ebay auction as a vickrey auction, and just accept it as it is, you won't feel cheated that no one is bidding on your auctions till the last minute. Then you can save yourself a tremendous amount of grief and time by not altering the ending of your auctions. __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 4 16:37:17 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 17:37:17 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050704173717.00a78100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Wow! Somebody really wanted that one! <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <008001c580e6$09a3f2a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I see this thread, I see it has many answers, perhaps this one, but, at this point I am surprised that there was such a response. Please don't discuss eBay problems on this list. The archive space for this topic has long ago been exceeded. Thank You. John A. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 4 17:30:47 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:30:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050704173717.00a78100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > Wow! Somebody really wanted that one! I, for one, am not shocked by this high number. I would have been if the number was less than $10K. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 4 17:32:12 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:32:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > There are > no major computer recyclers in the area, no high tech junkyards Look harder. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 4 17:32:59 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:32:59 -0700 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 Message-ID: <969721fe3533b381eebbdf3a5c13647f@bitsavers.org> > Wow! Somebody really wanted that one! Straight 8 CPUs go for over 5K, so a clean complete system with TC01/TU55's and DF32's in original mid 60's cabinets is about right at 10-15k. I assume Bill is going to prep/ship it himself (making sure to REMOVE the glass front panel and packing it separately) So... is he going to sell the OTHER Straight 8 CPU that he has now? :-) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 4 18:19:08 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 17:19:08 -0600 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" References: <20050704204108.86490.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42C9C3EC.1050107@jetnet.ab.ca> David Comley wrote: > ii) I never bid on anything that has 'Rare', 'Ultra > rare', 'GOLD' or exclamation marks in the title. Who > gives a monkey's if something has gold in it ? I'm > going to plug the thing in and run it, not wear it > round my neck. And gold is cheap compared to the price they sell stuff on ebay. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jul 4 18:44:42 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 00:44:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <42C9C3EC.1050107@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20050704204108.86490.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <42C9C3EC.1050107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2241.82.152.112.73.1120520682.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > And gold is cheap compared to the price they sell > stuff on ebay. http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/museum-wow.php - this page has been in existence ever since I wrote it :) 2000 or 2001 or thereabouts. It's as true now as it was then, though it's a bit UK-centric. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jul 4 19:09:31 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:09:31 -0500 Subject: Old Bond Movie with Apple IIc Message-ID: <013001c580f5$d4f18cb0$1d406b43@66067007> Just watching A View to Kill (Roger Moore as Bond) on SPIKE Cable TV and in the bedroom scene were they talk about the earthquakes the female actress goes to her dresser to check the computer. It's a Apple IIc with a green IIc monitor and shows graphics of the oil field were the quakes are happing. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jul 4 19:27:44 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 20:27:44 -0400 Subject: Free 8" floppy drives, Washington DC area Message-ID: <42C9D400.nailIRJ1YCK3B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> I've still got many 8" floppy drives available for free right outside Washington DC. Will not ship, you must pick up. Some full-height, some half-height, some in desktop enclosures with power supplies and some in rack mount enclosures with power supplies. If interested, drop me an e-mail at my non-list address, shoppa at trailing-edge.com. Also some misc ST506-type (MFM) hard drives, and an 8" hard drive with 50pin+20 pin interface (ST??? can't remember) in an enclosure with power supply. I think that 8" hard drive worked with a Compupro Disk2 controller when I last tried it (like a decade ago) but I no longer have the Disk2. Tim. From cb at mythtech.net Mon Jul 4 19:35:44 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 20:35:44 -0400 Subject: Old Bond Movie with Apple IIc Message-ID: >Just watching A View to Kill (Roger Moore as Bond) on SPIKE Cable TV and in >the bedroom scene were they talk about the earthquakes the female actress >goes to her dresser to check the computer. It's a Apple IIc with a green >IIc monitor and shows graphics of the oil field were the quakes are happing. Wow, what a sad bunch we are when we stare at the computers and not Tanya Roberts. (yes, I noticed it was an Apple as well) -chris From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 4 18:45:05 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 00:45:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jul 4, 5 04:20:16 am Message-ID: > > Next problem is that the microcassette drive appears to be "stuck" with the heads > > and capstan forward - not really stuck, as you can push them back on their spring, > > however they are not retained back as they should be - prevents inserting and > > removing tapes - I haven't opened it yet, but will shortly ... is there any useful > > info about the drive machanics in the service manual? I assume there must be some > > kind of solinoid and latch to hold them back and release them? > > There's a little motor/gearbox to move the head, and I think a position > detelction swtich. I will check the manual for you. The technical manual > I have gives schematics for the cassette option, exploded views, > dismantling instructions, etc. HEre's a little information on how this works. The cassette drive interface is not too simple, with several signals doing multiple jobs (!). But anyway... There's an 8 bit shift register, IC2 (4015) on the cassette drive PCB. It takes clock and data from P44 and P43 of the slave CPU respectively. Bit 5 ((pin 12) and pint 6 (pin 11) of this shift register are the run and brake lines for the HP motor (HP = Head/Pinch = the motor that moves the head bracket). Bit 5 drives Q11 (2SC2532) which then drives Q6 (2SA1204). This applies voltage to thye HP motor. Bit 6 drives Q12 (2SC2532) which short-circuits the HP motor to brake it. But there's a bit more. The power to the mechanical side of the tape drive is regulated by Q3, Q14, ZD1 and associated components. The input to this is controlled by Q2, which is driven by Q8, which in turn is driven by P42 of the slave CPU. The idea is that a command is clocked into the shift register, then the power is turned on and the motors run, etc. To detect whether the head is loaded or not, there's a leaf switch called HSW. One side goes to chassis, the other is pulled up to VL by R38. It then goes into a 4066 chip, IC3, which is used as a dual 2-input multiplexer controlled by the same line that's used to clock the command shift register. Q17 acts as an inverter, 2 of the switches in IC3 are controlled by the clock line, the other 2 by the inverted clock line in the obvious way. Anyway, the head position switch is multiplexed with the tape counter optoswtich signal, and goes to P46 on the slave CPU. Now back to the mechanical side of things. The first problem is getting inside. The bottom cover of the cassette unit comes off with the obvious screws. The manual then says to peel off the trim on the cassette 'pocket', undo the 3 screws holding the chassis to the case and take the mechanism/PCB out. I seem to rememebr it's possible to get it out without removing said trim, but that it's a right fiddle!. Th manual also says that to remove the PCB you unsolder all the wires, take out the screws, and take off the PCB. Again, I seem to remember you have to desolder at least the write-protect switch, this is a leaf contact on the chassis, the tab of which is soldered into a hole on the PCB without a wire if you see what I mean. But you can leave the other wires connected. The HSW (HP switch) is fixed on top of the HP motor bracket with one small screw. This is the cylindrical motor at the front of the unit, not the flat motor at the back with the belt drive to the capstan flywheel. When refitting it, the manaul gives the adjustment as : Whit the switch removed from the HP motor : a) The moving contact (nearest the mounting hole) should be at right angles to the plastic block where the terminals go through. b) The gap between the the 2 contacts should be 0.35 +/- 0.1 (mm?) Then fit the swtich and c) The moving contact should be on the surface of the cam (cam positioned so it is on the low point od the cam) d) The plastci block on the fixed contact must be in contact with the boss on the HP motor bracket. With the swtich remobed, the HP motor assembly comes out with 2 more screws, one on top, the other underneath. Be careful when removing this not to disturb the 'P lever' (the lever that actually carries the head, etc). Your problem could be electronic or mechanical. I would start by disconnecting the HP motor wires and running the motor from a 3V battery. See if the head moves backwards and forwards correctly. And see that the HSW contacts are closing as they should do. Then we can go into troubleshoorting the electronics. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 4 18:48:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 00:48:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: <200507040558.BAA17454@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jul 4, 5 01:52:42 am Message-ID: > It's not right. You might be able to get away with the exceptions for > stubs to devices if the wires from the terminator to the device and the > open connector are short enough, but that seems unlikely to me, > especially since I think the maximum stub length for that exception is > something like three inches. As a general point you should never try to 'get away with things' like this. This applies IMHO to all areas of hardware -- if you do things like this they will come back to 'bite' you when you least want problems. I would put everything right (e.g. not have stubs on a SCSI bus) and then try to sort out remaining problems, knowing that they're genuine problems, not caused by misuse of hardware. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 4 18:56:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 00:56:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <2b541d854d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jul 4, 5 10:22:16 am Message-ID: > Bleagh. I wanted that MPF, too - it only went for =A316 - my max was way = > higher > than that :( :( :( YEs, but you don't know how high the winning bidder was prepared to go either. He might have gone way higher than you were prepared to pay. I remember once at a physical auction I picked up some bit of hardware for the opening bid of \pounds 1.00. Mentioning this to a friend who came in later, he said that he would have outbid me on that. I then pointed out that I would have gone to something like \pounds 100 if necessary.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 4 19:09:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 01:09:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120480665.10023.36.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 4, 5 12:37:45 pm Message-ID: > Not me yet... more interested in their SASI controller at this stage to > be honest as I really need a way of getting the 380Z fileserver backed > up! What about hacking around with the Acorn SASI controller, e.g. the one in your ACW? I assume you have schematics, etc for that. > > > > Actually, info on the various PAL chips would be handy; RML didn't half > > > > THere were no PALs in the original set of boards (CPU, VDU, hi-res, disk, > > etc). WHat there were -- and were to excess -- were small bipolar PROMs. > > Those were often colour-coded. > > That's what I'm thinking of :) I haven't seen their contents noted down > anywhere. My programmer here might well handle them, I just don't want > to risk toasting one out of a running machine! I'll send you a uuencoded tar.gz file of the ones in my machine (CPU, RAM expansion, 40 column video, hi-res). May be a start. > "COS checks to see if there is a VDU plugged into the SIO-4 socket. If What does it look for? One of the handshake lines being asseted? > there is, all subsequent output via the scroller output EMTs is sent to > this VDU. Graphical output, such as the front panel, or low or high > resolution graphics, still appear on the RML screen. If a character is Argh!. While twin monitor setups are useful in some cases, this sounds like something of a kludge. > received from the VDU at 9600 baud, COS also switches the keyboard EMTs > to take all subsequent input from the VDU ignoring the RML keyboard." > > So it should work with an SIO-4 (or presumably 4C). Indeed, we've > actually got some Cifer terminals doing nothing which have nice black > keyboards very similar in looks to the 380Z ones... > > The text implies that it's not possible to have a terminal as input-only > though; it'll always redirect text output if a terminal's present. How > much RML software actually uses the COS routines is another matter - The EMTs (one of the Z80 RSTs followed by a function code byte) are certainly used in the CP/M CBIOS. I suspect a lot of software uses them. > there must be at least some bits and pieces out there that talk to the > keyboard / display directly rather than through COS, and those then > wouldn't work... Anything doing graphics, for a start... Personally, I'd try to use the RML's video card for everything, which means kludging up a keyboard. It can't be that hard, the interface is as simple as it gets. > Heh, I know what you mean! In the case of RML stuff I like to try and > keep track of who has what anyway as it's reasonably uncommon stuff. By my standards they're fairly common.... -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 4 19:48:20 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 20:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <42C9C3EC.1050107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > And gold is cheap compared to the price they sell > stuff on ebay. Actually not...I have been tracking how scrap does on Ebay, and it does not do well. Perhaps the market needs to evolve a bit more. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rcini at optonline.net Mon Jul 4 20:09:18 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 21:09:18 -0400 Subject: Old Bond Movie with Apple IIc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00c401c580fe$2b7c1d90$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> That was an absolutely great movie. Roger Moore's last I think. Also a decent computer game (from Mindscape...I played it on the Mac). Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of chris Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 8:36 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Old Bond Movie with Apple IIc >Just watching A View to Kill (Roger Moore as Bond) on SPIKE Cable TV >and in >the bedroom scene were they talk about the earthquakes the female actress >goes to her dresser to check the computer. It's a Apple IIc with a green >IIc monitor and shows graphics of the oil field were the quakes are happing. Wow, what a sad bunch we are when we stare at the computers and not Tanya Roberts. (yes, I noticed it was an Apple as well) -chris From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 4 20:19:54 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 01:19:54 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120526394.10917.18.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 01:09 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Not me yet... more interested in their SASI controller at this stage to > > be honest as I really need a way of getting the 380Z fileserver backed > > up! > > What about hacking around with the Acorn SASI controller, e.g. the one in > your ACW? I assume you have schematics, etc for that. Yep, could do - plus I've got the schematics for the Torch one somewhere. Just wanted to check that there wasn't anything funny about the RML one (there shouldn't be) - SASI should be SASI no matter what. > [PROMS] > I'll send you a uuencoded tar.gz file of the ones in my machine (CPU, RAM > expansion, 40 column video, hi-res). May be a start. Brilliant - ta muchly for that. I'll see if I can work my programmer out and read the others that I have... > > "COS checks to see if there is a VDU plugged into the SIO-4 socket. If > > What does it look for? One of the handshake lines being asseted? Doesn't say, unfortunately. I actually think that RML started out with the best intentions when producing their documents and wanted to document everything - with the result being that time constraints meant things were somewhat patchy! Related stuff seems to be spread over lots of docs seemingly randomly in places, plus there are some big holes... > > there is, all subsequent output via the scroller output EMTs is sent to > > this VDU. Graphical output, such as the front panel, or low or high > > resolution graphics, still appear on the RML screen. If a character is > > Argh!. While twin monitor setups are useful in some cases, this sounds > like something of a kludge. Yep I agree - still, it's nice that the functionality's sort of there. I'll have to try it sometime - just got my own 380Z up and running again. > The EMTs (one of the Z80 RSTs followed by a function code byte) are > certainly used in the CP/M CBIOS. I suspect a lot of software uses them. Well that's a good thing in this case :) > Personally, I'd try to use the RML's video card for everything, which > means kludging up a keyboard. It can't be that hard, the interface is as > simple as it gets. Yep, true. I'll have to have a look inside one of the Cifer keyboards sometime as they look the part - maybe one of those can be hooked up via an interface... > > Heh, I know what you mean! In the case of RML stuff I like to try and > > keep track of who has what anyway as it's reasonably uncommon stuff. > > By my standards they're fairly common.... Oh sure, not super-rare - but it's much easier to pick up an S100 system (say) than a 380Z or other systems of similar age / performance / flexibility. I seem to have been pretty lucky with RML finds over the years. seeya Jules From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jul 4 20:30:11 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 03:30:11 +0200 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C9E2A3.1060901@hachti.de> Oh :-( I am already shocked about the price being higher than $1000 !!! How should students like me be able to play with old computers if some people thing that these machines have the value of their weight in gold....!?! From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 4 20:36:35 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 21:36:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <42C9E2A3.1060901@hachti.de> Message-ID: > I am already shocked about the price being higher than $1000 !!! > How should students like me be able to play with old computers if some > people thing that these machines have the value of their weight in > gold....!?! Get a Data General or an Interdata - they tend to be cheaper by a good stretch. I was actually thinking about starting an informal pool on the Straight-8 sale, but did not get around to it. When the next awesome machine hits email, lets set one up. Anyone want to venture what a PDP-1 would fetch? S/360? William Donzelli aw299 at osfn.org From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 4 21:09:26 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old Bond Movie with Apple IIc In-Reply-To: <00c401c580fe$2b7c1d90$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> from "Richard A. Cini" at "Jul 4, 5 09:09:18 pm" Message-ID: <200507050209.TAA15030@floodgap.com> > That was an absolutely great movie. Roger Moore's last I think. Also a > decent computer game (from Mindscape...I played it on the Mac). I wouldn't have called it terrible, but it definitely wasn't on my top ten list of Bonds. My favourite, simply because it's weird, is still Diamonds Are Forever, but of the Roger Moore movies, I think The Spy Who Loved Me, Moonraker (except for the bad effect scenes) and For Your Eyes Only were much better. View To A Kill was not an auspicious ending for Moore's tour of duty. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Well done is better than well said. -- Benjamin Franklin ------------------- From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Jul 4 23:22:36 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 06:22:36 +0200 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <42C9E2A3.1060901@hachti.de> Message-ID: <6A9B04EA-ED0C-11D9-8363-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Am dinsdag, 05.07.05, um 03:30 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Philipp Hachtmann: > Oh :-( > > I am already shocked about the price being higher than $1000 !!! > How should students like me be able to play with old computers if some > people thing that these machines have the value of their weight in > gold....!?! By swapping of course. You have 3 8/L's, you could easily swap one or two for other interesting machines. Ebay is not the only means to get machines. Jos From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 00:07:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 22:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050704173717.00a78100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, Joe R. wrote: > Wow! Somebody really wanted that one! > me=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1? Somebody got a smoking good deal. Something like that is not likely to come around again anytime soon. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 00:15:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 22:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > I am already shocked about the price being higher than $1000 !!! > > How should students like me be able to play with old computers if some > > people thing that these machines have the value of their weight in > > gold....!?! > > Get a Data General or an Interdata - they tend to be cheaper by a good > stretch. > > I was actually thinking about starting an informal pool on the Straight-8 > sale, but did not get around to it. When the next awesome machine hits > email, lets set one up. > > Anyone want to venture what a PDP-1 would fetch? S/360? $50K. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jul 5 01:14:07 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 01:14:07 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> Vintage Computer Festival declared on Tuesday 05 July 2005 12:15 am: > On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > > I am already shocked about the price being higher than $1000 !!! > > > How should students like me be able to play with old computers if > > > some people thing that these machines have the value of their > > > weight in gold....!?! > > > > Get a Data General or an Interdata - they tend to be cheaper by a > > good stretch. > > > > I was actually thinking about starting an informal pool on the > > Straight-8 sale, but did not get around to it. When the next awesome > > machine hits email, lets set one up. > > > > Anyone want to venture what a PDP-1 would fetch? S/360? > > $50K. $1M! Wait, are we supposed to give realistic numbers? $50k for a -1 seems high but not totally unreasonable for a machine that is in excellent (running) condition, if it were sold through a 'real' auction house, like Christie's, under the best possible circumstances. $50k for an S/360 does seem too high, though, because the S/360 has a lower 'collectability' (interest, and more of them were produced). Price on the S/360 would probably also follow what CPU model (among other factors). A Model 30 would likely produce nowhere near as much interest as a Model 91, and peripherals would likely make a bigger difference with the S/360 than they would with the -1. At best, I'd give a number in the $10k-$20k range for a relatively complete, working, and scratch-free S/360 setup (with the most desirable CPU and peripherals) under the 'best conditions'. Bear in mind, I've never actually seen a S/360 setup sell anywhere and these are #s I've just pulled out of my ass. Your mileage may vary. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cc at corti-net.de Tue Jul 5 03:54:19 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:54:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > John Bohner got it.. I know he's a big fan of the G-15 and friends. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5784697941 > I'll have to put the pics up for it, it was REALLY nice, full > docs, and software. Hopefully I can get copies from John at > some point. Hopefully it will be working again some day... Until now there's only one working LGP-30 in the world, only some rooms away :-) I really hope getting copies from all the paper tapes. We do have a large collection of software, too, but there might be some paper tapes we don't have. We also have nearly all printsets for the (European) LGP-30 and LGP-21, blueprints, maintenance manuals etc. Christian From news at computercollector.com Tue Jul 5 04:54:57 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 05:54:57 -0400 Subject: Restoration of the HP garage Message-ID: <200507051000.j65A0Pj5058985@keith.ezwind.net> http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/12034644.htm ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 750 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 5 07:35:38 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 08:35:38 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/34 Programmer's Panel, Bubble Memory, DEC Rack Panel on E-bay Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050705083538.00a66880@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Joe From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jul 5 08:02:12 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 08:02:12 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: In-Reply-To: <2241.82.152.112.73.1120520682.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <20050704204108.86490.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <42C9C3EC.1050107@jetnet.ab.ca> <2241.82.152.112.73.1120520682.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050705065129.051e46f0@mail> It also occurs to me that if someone is willing to engage in this hobby - and especially if it's something closer to a career - that spending a little money here and there to get what you desire shouldn't be that much of a problem, especially dealing with a place as risky as eBay. You can do a lot with very little cash. Think something's valuable to you? Think your top bid is $100? Then risk a little more - take possession of it, scan the manuals or examine the insides, then put it back on eBay. You're out the cost of shipping plus auctioning it again. So what? Maybe you could even send a note to the seller, asking him to send a note to the next two lower bidders, offering the item to them outside of eBay after you're done. Frugality is great, but if you don't have the spare cash to spend, don't spend your last bit on computer junk. - John From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 10:01:22 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > Anyone want to venture what a PDP-1 would fetch? S/360? > > > > $50K. > > $1M! > > Wait, are we supposed to give realistic numbers? > > $50k for a -1 seems high but not totally unreasonable for a machine that > is in excellent (running) condition, if it were sold through a 'real' > auction house, like Christie's, under the best possible circumstances. It's a high number but as you say, not unreasonable. > $50k for an S/360 does seem too high, though, because the S/360 has a > lower 'collectability' (interest, and more of them were produced). How many PDP-1's have you seen around? How many IBM 360's? There are way more PDP-1's known to still exist than IBM 360's, and there's only a handful of PDP-1's left. The 360 also has a huge following of historical nuts. > Price on the S/360 would probably also follow what CPU model (among > other factors). A Model 30 would likely produce nowhere near as much > interest as a Model 91, and peripherals would likely make a bigger > difference with the S/360 than they would with the -1. At best, I'd > give a number in the $10k-$20k range for a relatively complete, working, > and scratch-free S/360 setup (with the most desirable CPU and > peripherals) under the 'best conditions'. You may be right. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Jul 5 12:13:31 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:13:31 -0400 Subject: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards In-Reply-To: <0IJ000LFEZFGZJ60@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IJ000LFEZFGZJ60@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050704114228.07421d58@mail.netsync.net> Hi Ram, I've had experience using the Bit3 Model 973 adapter set at the company I once worked at. It was back in 1997 when the project was constructed and my memory has suffered quite a lot of bit-rot since then (sound familiar to some of you? :-) You do need windoze drivers for the PCI side, but I don't have an installable set in the project software files I kept that used the product. I do have some files I could email to you to pick apart if you cannot find an original windoze95 driver disk. The application was written in Delphi 2.x while the custom-designed VMEbus controller used homespun firmware -which I do not have. I should note that the homespun files are commented in mostly English but there's some German interspersed -depending upon which engineer wrote them. I recall it was a pita to get the windoze95 machine and the VMEbus system communicating well. My German colleagues (at our parent company) designed/built the VMEbus hardware did the software integration. They reported that they used the right magic incantations and German cuss words. I just did the English translations of the user interface for us and the Chicago plant. Wish I had kept a copy of the drivers package and manual in case I or someone else ran into a 973 :-/ Oh well . . . Let me know, Ram, if you want the installed driver files (LESS the .dll and other files that were not placed in the user directory). Regards, Chris F. NNNN Upon the date 20:30 02-07-05, Ram Meenakshisundaram said something like: >Hi, > >Does anyone know how to set these boards up? I have a SBS 616 PCI adapter >and its corresponding VMEBus adapter. I also have a VME Chassis and I want >to install some transputer boards on the chassis and access it via Windows. >Anyone have experience in using these??? > >Thanks, > >Ram Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Jul 5 12:27:38 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:27:38 -0400 Subject: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE3BB@exchange.olf.com> Hi Chris, I was able to get the drivers from SBS. They have the manuals, etc online and anyone can download them. Better than other companies where it is a pain to get them. Since I am quite a newbie when it comes to VME, I am not sure if I installed everything correctly. I got the chassis hooked up and everything and the showrevs utility does seem to pick up both the PCI and VMEBus cards. I really want to get this working under Linux, but I want the windows version up and running first. Here is what I have so far: 1) A VME Chassis with the SBS board connected to slot #0 (System controller) 2) Several transputer VME slave boards on the other slots. I want just the 1st transputer board to be recognized by the VME bus while the others are there just for power and J2 connections. 3) The drivers I have for the transputer boards are UNIX source files which I need to convert over to Windows XP/SBS style. I could surely use some help here (any software that illustrates how to communicate when be helpful). 4) There seems to be terminators? on both the J1 and J2 on slot #0. What are they used for? Should I remove them? They are on the back of the VME Chassis. 5) This is a VERO chassis (if that has any relevance). Thanks a lot, Ram From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Jul 5 12:34:11 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:34:11 -0400 Subject: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE3BC@exchange.olf.com> This chassis once held a FORCE SPARC VME controller. It has long since been removed by the previous owner. Hence, those terminators are probably from that board.... Thanks, Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: Ram Meenakshisundaram [mailto:RMeenaks at OLF.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:28 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Cc: cfandt at netsync.net > Subject: RE: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards > > > Hi Chris, > > I was able to get the drivers from SBS. They have the > manuals, etc online and anyone can download them. Better > than other companies where it is a pain to get them. Since I > am quite a newbie when it comes to VME, I am not sure if I > installed everything correctly. I got the chassis hooked up > and everything and the showrevs utility does seem to pick up > both the PCI and VMEBus cards. I really want to get this > working under Linux, but I want the windows version up and > running first. Here is what I have so far: > > 1) A VME Chassis with the SBS board connected to slot #0 > (System controller) > > 2) Several transputer VME slave boards on the other slots. I > want just the 1st transputer board to be recognized by the > VME bus while the others are there just for power and J2 > connections. > > 3) The drivers I have for the transputer boards are UNIX > source files which I need to convert over to Windows XP/SBS > style. I could surely use some help here (any software that > illustrates how to communicate when be helpful). > > 4) There seems to be terminators? on both the J1 and J2 on > slot #0. What are they used for? Should I remove them? > They are on the back of the VME Chassis. > > 5) This is a VERO chassis (if that has any relevance). > > Thanks a lot, > > > Ram > From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 12:41:13 2005 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:41:13 -0400 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types Message-ID: Hello all, Believe it or not, I couldn't find this on google, so I humbly submit it here.... Does anyone have a list of the built-in drive types from the original IBM AT? I'd like the drive number, heads, cyls, and capacity if you have the list. The setup program on the diagnostics disk only lets you pick a type, but it does not tell you what the choices are... Of course, I know that later computers came along with BIOSes that let you see the drive types instead of picking one out of thin air, but I don't know if these followed the AT choices... Thanks! Rich B. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jul 5 13:06:36 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:06:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Richard Beaudry wrote: > Does anyone have a list of the built-in drive types from the original > IBM AT? I'd like the drive number, heads, cyls, and capacity if you > have the list. The setup program on the diagnostics disk only lets > you pick a type, but it does not tell you what the choices are... http://www.msclub.ce.cctpu.edu.ru/bibl/PCB/ch23.htm#Heading18 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Jul 5 13:19:25 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 14:19:25 -0400 Subject: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards In-Reply-To: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE3BB@exchange.olf.com> References: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE3BB@exchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050705135830.0752b888@mail.netsync.net> Upon the date 13:27 05-07-05, Ram Meenakshisundaram said something like: >Hi Chris, > >I was able to get the drivers from SBS. They have the manuals, etc online >and anyone can download them. Better than other companies where it is a That's great that SBS has them available on their website now. Back in 97/98, Bit3 themselves were a right pain to deal with and wanted much money for various software, manuals, etc. This was maybe 'cuz the 973 was new product, but still, don't abuse your customers! Anyway, during development, we ran the application in a mode that did not require the windoze PC to be lashed-up to the VMEbus equipment. However, the Bit 3 drivers HAD to be installed for the homespun hardware emulator to work. This is great in that I can download and install the Bit3 drivers and once again perhaps play with this application, an old friend :-) Seems the compiled application was around 1 meg in size, large for those days with minimal GUI requirements. >pain to get them. Since I am quite a newbie when it comes to VME, I am not >sure if I installed everything correctly. I got the chassis hooked up and >everything and the showrevs utility does seem to pick up both the PCI and >VMEBus cards. I really want to get this working under Linux, but I want the >windows version up and running first. Here is what I have so far: Well, with some of the Delphi files written in Pascal, you may be able to extract enough to get an idea on writing C drivers both for windoze and for Linux. >1) A VME Chassis with the SBS board connected to slot #0 (System controller) Correct location. See termination comment below . . . >2) Several transputer VME slave boards on the other slots. I want just the >1st transputer board to be recognized by the VME bus while the others are >there just for power and J2 connections. > >3) The drivers I have for the transputer boards are UNIX source files which >I need to convert over to Windows XP/SBS style. I could surely use some >help here (any software that illustrates how to communicate when be >helpful). Well, I'll rummage around in the directory where I have the project stored an email them to you. Are you indicating that SBS/Bit3 has updated drivers for windoze xp? >4) There seems to be terminators? on both the J1 and J2 on slot #0. What >are they used for? Should I remove them? They are on the back of the VME >Chassis. Both ends of the VMEbus need to be terminated, so slot #0 having terminators is fine. Look at the last slot at the other end and see if there are terms there. Also, and this is where my memory fails me, there *may* have been provisions to terminate the bus on the SBS VME board. The manual should discuss that. >5) This is a VERO chassis (if that has any relevance). I believe VERO was a good VMEbus chassis/motherboard mfgr., so it should be a good, quiet design. Never had personal hands-on experience with VERO though. Now, with all this said, I'm very interested in getting a 973 board set, and cable, for myself so that I may experiment with lashing up PCs and to of my VMEbus systems! Anybody have any PCI/VME Bit3 interface card sets available?? >Thanks a lot, > > >Ram Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Jul 5 13:54:18 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:54:18 -0400 Subject: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE3D0@exchange.olf.com> Hi Chris, Drivers for the SBS 616 are available for Windows XP/Linux/Solaris here: http://www.sbs.com/products/software/280 I picked mine up on ebay. I also picked up a SBUS-to-VME one as well, but its from Performance Tech SBS915 as well. There is currently one on ebay for a relatively cheap price (picked mine from the same guy): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=51239&item=3983996787 &rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW And its New in Box condition like mines. Now, if my board needs to use J2 connectors, do I need to install that on top of the terminators as well? The transputer boards has its own J2 plug which I installed on all the slots. Why do you need terminators if the chassis is limited to only 5 slots and all the slots are occupied??? Thanks, Ram From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 5 14:08:43 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem Message-ID: <200507051908.MAA23345@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Has anyone mentioned measuring the voltages on the control pins. It would be good to know if it was the controls or the drive. Dwight >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On 7/1/05, Teo Zenios wrote: >> Jumper 301 is still in the open position (for a single drive). > >Perfect. > >> The two 8520's looked ok (nothing shorting pins together or stuff like that, >> no signs of overheating). I swapped the 2 chips around and still have the >> same result (external Df2: works while the internal DF0: is dead). > >OK... swapping the 8520s and watching the symptoms was a pretty >standard method back in the day - it's easy and it works, so that >_probably_ shows your 8520s are OK. > >> I checked the floppy cable and didn't see anything out of the ordinary >> (except a pin in what looks like position 2 of the cable but I think that is >> a key, since the motherboard does not look like it has a broken pin on it). > >That _is_ a key (and needs to be in any Amiga hardware FAQ - I can't >remember how many times we had to tell people that in our Amiga club - >every novice who added an internal floppy use to call us up and ask >how to "replace a broken pin"... they thought that the >pin had become stuck, and they must have pulled it out when they >messed with the cable. > >> At this point I think it either the floppy cable has a bad line, or the >> drive is just dead. Since the amiga cable does not look like a standard >> floppy cable I think I will try setting the drive for Df1: and shorting >> Jumper 301 to see if its recognized at all. > > >> I did some research and quite a few older DD 3.5" PC drives can be jumpered >> to Amiga mode (ofcourse I don't have any on the list). > >And they support the /DISK-EXCHANGE signal (p 34?) That was what >always hosed frugal early-adopters of the Amiga - they'd try to use a >cheap floppy, and the OS wouldn't be able to step the drive in and out >one track to get the drive to assert the /DISK-EXCHAGE (or whichever >one it was) so that the drive could 'tell' the OS that the diskette >that used to be there isn't there any more. > >You _can_ hook up a floppy drive that won't assert that signal, but >that places a burden on the user's head to have to type an AmigaDOS >command to flush the previous diskette's particulars and to cache the >new diskette. > >-ethan > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 5 14:13:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:13:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120526394.10917.18.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 5, 5 01:19:54 am Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 01:09 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Not me yet... more interested in their SASI controller at this stage to > > > be honest as I really need a way of getting the 380Z fileserver backed > > > up! > > > > What about hacking around with the Acorn SASI controller, e.g. the one in > > your ACW? I assume you have schematics, etc for that. > > Yep, could do - plus I've got the schematics for the Torch one > somewhere. Just wanted to check that there wasn't anything funny about IIRC Torch made a SCSI controller for the Beeb, it was used with a ROM called SCISFS. If you've found one of those you're very lucky, I am told that fewer than 100 were made. > the RML one (there shouldn't be) - SASI should be SASI no matter what. IIRC the RML hard disk unit used a standard ST506-interfaced drive and a standard bridgeboard to SASI (Xebec?) In which case the host adapter is going to be pretty normal too. > > > [PROMS] > > I'll send you a uuencoded tar.gz file of the ones in my machine (CPU, RAM > > expansion, 40 column video, hi-res). May be a start. > > Brilliant - ta muchly for that. I'll see if I can work my programmer out > and read the others that I have... >From what I remember there are no PROMs on the standard (non-intellegent) disk controller or on the PIO card that I have somewhere. The latter is a board with an address decoder, 3 Z80-PIOs and a Z80-CTC on it, along with a wire-wrap area. I don't have schematics, but it would be trivial to work out. > > > > "COS checks to see if there is a VDU plugged into the SIO-4 socket. If > > > > What does it look for? One of the handshake lines being asseted? > > Doesn't say, unfortunately. I actually think that RML started out with > the best intentions when producing their documents and wanted to > document everything - with the result being that time constraints meant To be fair, the RML docs are an order-of-magnitude about the crap you get with modern computer products. It should be piossible to work out what COS looks for from the source listings. I am not sure, though, if the version on vt100.net is recent enough to support this. It's a pity nobody has the COS 3.4 or COS 4.0 listings. > > Personally, I'd try to use the RML's video card for everything, which > > means kludging up a keyboard. It can't be that hard, the interface is as > > simple as it gets. > > Yep, true. I'll have to have a look inside one of the Cifer keyboards > sometime as they look the part - maybe one of those can be hooked up via > an interface... I still wonder if the PC keyboard interface would be a good idea. It would have an adantage to you that the public at Bletchley could bash away on a PC keyboard without risking anything too rare. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 5 14:39:24 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:39:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: from "Richard Beaudry" at Jul 5, 5 01:41:13 pm Message-ID: > > Hello all, > > Believe it or not, I couldn't find this on google, so I humbly submit > it here.... > > Does anyone have a list of the built-in drive types from the original > IBM AT? I'd like the drive number, heads, cyls, and capacity if you I have a BIOS source listing that gives the hard disk parameter tables. It's not the _original_ BIOS (it's the 1985 one), but I think earlier ones just defined fewer drive types. Anyway : No Cylinders Heads Write Precomp Landing Zone Sectors/track 1 306 4 128 306 17 2 615 4 300 615 17 3 615 6 300 615 17 4 940 8 512 940 17 5 940 6 512 940 17 6 615 4 none 615 17 7 462 8 256 511 17 8 733 5 none 733 17 9 900 15 none 901 17 10 820 3 none 820 17 11 855 5 none 855 17 12 855 7 none 855 17 13 306 8 128 319 17 14 733 7 none 733 17 15 ------- RESERVED -- Do not use ---------------------------- 16 612 4 all 663 17 17 977 5 300 977 17 18 977 7 none 977 17 19 1024 7 512 1023 17 20 733 5 300 732 17 21 733 7 300 732 17 22 733 5 300 733 17 23 306 4 all 336 17 Guessing what the various drives were is left as an exercise for the reader :-) -tony From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jul 5 15:26:09 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:26:09 -0400 Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info Message-ID: <20050705202608.IQA17632.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Tony, >> There's a little motor/gearbox to move the head, and I think a position >> detelction swtich. I will check the manual for you. The technical manual >> I have gives schematics for the cassette option, exploded views, >> dismantling instructions, etc. > >HEre's a little information on how this works. > > ... lots of useful info ... Thanks! - that was very helpful. When you said "quite a fiddle" you weren't kidding ... but on the + side, it gets easier after about the third time... Problem turned out to be mechanical, a combination of dirt/aging lubricants in the mechanics which slide the head/capstan in and out, and dirty contacts in the position detector leaf switch. After cleaning and lubricating the mechanical parts, and cleaning and adjusting the switch (which is quite finicy - hence the "several times" - it's more fun to take apart with a tape stuck in it) ... the drive is working fine now, and the HX-20 is saving and loading programs like it was new! Thanks again & regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From g-wright at worldnet.att.net Tue Jul 5 12:28:44 2005 From: g-wright at worldnet.att.net (g-wright) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:28:44 -0400 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost Message-ID: <42CAC34C.4000502@worldnet.att.net> Hi, I'm trying to get one of my 11-23's going and finally got around to setting up a TU58 emulator. got it to boot RT-11 and now trying to get a RX-02 working. I have 3 controllers and 3 sets of RX-02's. All do the same thing. The just seems to not be able to find track 1 or Home or ??? The heads just keep going from home to maybe the first tack and back. The heads do load and the system tries quit a few times then pauses and tries again. It then errors on drive failure or read error directory not found, size function failed depends what I ask it to do. I have tried all of the boards and drives. all or them seem to do the same thing. I do not know how good the drives are but can't believe there all bad. I have recheck the switches in the RX-02 and the Jumpers on the cards. Cleaned the drives. tried different disks. Is there some kind of compatibility issue that i do not know about. Or do I have 6 dead drives. The system is a Micro PDP 11, 8 slot Rack mount, with 1 M8189 11-23+ 1 M8067 KB 256k Memory 1 M8639 YA MFM rx50 controller 1 M8029 RX-02 controller - in this order. Everything else seems to work. I added the floppy card but the rest is original. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 5 15:50:13 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:50:13 +0100 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c581a3$25234d10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >It should be piossible to work out what COS looks for from the source >listings. I am not sure, though, if the version on vt100.net is recent >enough to support this. It's a pity nobody has the COS 3.4 or COS 4.0 >listings. I cannot find the COS listings in there at all. I must have missed a manual somewhere. I'll traipse up into the attic in the next day or two and see if I can find the right box. Antonio From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 5 15:56:22 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:56:22 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120596982.11893.45.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 20:13 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > What about hacking around with the Acorn SASI controller, e.g. the one in > > > your ACW? I assume you have schematics, etc for that. > > > > Yep, could do - plus I've got the schematics for the Torch one > > somewhere. Just wanted to check that there wasn't anything funny about > > IIRC Torch made a SCSI controller for the Beeb, it was used with a ROM > called SCISFS. If you've found one of those you're very lucky, I am told > that fewer than 100 were made. Hmm... my Torch 725 has a Torch SCSI board in it - although I recall that it's not a complex board at all, just a handful of TTL chips. Whether that's the same board as available from them for the BBC I don't know, but as the 725 uses a BBC as the I/O processor it's reasonable to suggest that it is. I'll have to check what ROMs it has... (it's got one of the Torch 68000 coprocessors in it and should run Unix - *but* I have a feeling that the hard drive's toast and I don't think it's something I have media for) The big brown-cased C-series machines that had hard disks in used a Torch SASI board; I expect those are somewhat more common... > > the RML one (there shouldn't be) - SASI should be SASI no matter what. > > IIRC the RML hard disk unit used a standard ST506-interfaced drive and a > standard bridgeboard to SASI (Xebec?) In which case the host adapter is > going to be pretty normal too. Can't remember what make the bridge board is now, but yep, it's one of the common ones. The controller shouldn't be doing anything funny with signal lines or the data, but I thought I'd check! > >From what I remember there are no PROMs on the standard (non-intellegent) > disk controller or on the PIO card that I have somewhere. The latter is a > board with an address decoder, 3 Z80-PIOs and a Z80-CTC on it, along with > a wire-wrap area. I don't have schematics, but it would be trivial to > work out. Nice - I've not seen one of the PIO boards before. And agreed, I don't think there's a PROM on the standard FDC either. > It should be piossible to work out what COS looks for from the source > listings. I am not sure, though, if the version on vt100.net is recent > enough to support this. It's a pity nobody has the COS 3.4 or COS 4.0 > listings. Hmm yep, that is a shame. I think a lot changed between COS 3.0 and 3.4... > I still wonder if the PC keyboard interface would be a good idea. It > would have an adantage to you that the public at Bletchley could bash > away on a PC keyboard without risking anything too rare. Yep, that is a good point. Mind you, we've got a couple of VT220s with dead LOPTs - they'd make nice input-only devices! cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 5 15:58:13 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:58:13 +0000 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120597093.11910.47.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 20:39 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > I have a BIOS source listing that gives the hard disk parameter tables. > It's not the _original_ BIOS (it's the 1985 one), but I think earlier > ones just defined fewer drive types. Anyway : Home come entry 15 was reserved? (and why pick 15?) cheers J. From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Jul 5 16:04:39 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:04:39 -0400 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE3DF@exchange.olf.com> See Mike's link for an explanation... http://www.msclub.ce.cctpu.edu.ru/bibl/PCB/ch23.htm#Heading18 Cheers, Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: Jules Richardson [mailto:julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:58 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: IBM AT Drive Types > > Home come entry 15 was reserved? (and why pick 15?) > > cheers > > J. > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jul 5 16:30:04 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:30:04 -0400 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost Message-ID: <0IJ6002K8BPT8RK4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost > From: g-wright > Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:28:44 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Hi, > >I'm trying to get one of my 11-23's going and finally >got around to setting up a TU58 emulator. got it >to boot RT-11 and now trying to get a RX-02 working. > >I have 3 controllers and 3 sets of RX-02's. All do the same >thing. The just seems to not be able to find track 1 or Home >or ??? The heads just keep going from home to maybe the >first tack and back. The heads do load and the system tries >quit a few times then pauses and tries again. It then errors >on drive failure or read error directory not found, size >function failed depends what I ask it to do. I have tried all >of the boards and drives. all or them seem to do the same > thing. I do not know how good the drives are but can't > believe there all bad. > >I have recheck the switches in the RX-02 and the Jumpers on >the cards. Cleaned the drives. tried different disks. > >Is there some kind of compatibility issue that i do not know >about. Or do I have 6 dead drives. > >The system is a Micro PDP 11, 8 slot Rack mount, with >1 M8189 11-23+ >1 M8067 KB 256k Memory >1 M8639 YA MFM rx50 controller >1 M8029 RX-02 controller >- in this order. > >Everything else seems to work. I added the floppy card >but the rest is original. > > >Thanks, Jerry > >Jerry Wright >JLC inc > Either you blew the interrupt grant chain (the 8639 should be last!) or you didn't put a bootable system on the disks. The boot behavour suggests that the boot track is bare or worse. You should have done a copy/boot to get the system bootable off floppy. since you can boot RT via TU58 you should make sure you have the DY device loaded and do a DUP /bad DY0:. A tu58 system (or emulator) is big enough to carry all the needed devices and drivers. As far as compatability, I've used RX02 with every Qbus I have successfully. Allison From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 5 16:32:22 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:32:22 +0100 Subject: DEC stuff on ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <1120597093.11910.47.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000001c581a9$0887c9a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> A PDP-11/03 chassis (same one as before I think, but cheaper): http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5214 435231&rd=1 A DECserver 200 (personally I'd like a 100 ...): http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5214 781703&rd=1 A MicroVAX 3100 of some sort, comes with tapes, some of which could do with imaging: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5786946507&rd=1&ssp agename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 And finally, tonight's star prize, four VAX 6000-600s, fully loaded and, as a special bonus, a bunch of HSJs and cables: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5216108968&rd=1&ssp agename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 I know someone was interested in a VAX 6000 .... Antonio From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Jul 5 16:37:28 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:37:28 +0100 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost References: <42CAC34C.4000502@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <008701c581a9$bef7e3a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> > I'm trying to get one of my 11-23's going and finally > got around to setting up a TU58 emulator. got it > to boot RT-11 and now trying to get a RX-02 working. > Are you booting RT11 off of the TU58 emulator? (if so, where did you get the disk image?) > > Is there some kind of compatibility issue that i do not know > about. Or do I have 6 dead drives. > > The system is a Micro PDP 11, 8 slot Rack mount, with > 1 M8189 11-23+ > 1 M8067 KB 256k Memory > 1 M8639 YA MFM rx50 controller > 1 M8029 RX-02 controller > - in this order. > > Everything else seems to work. I added the floppy card > but the rest is original. > I would be tempted to try the machine without the RX50 controller - move the RX02 up one slot. There are a couple of XXDP images available on the web, so you could build an XXDP test that will boot from the TU58 emulator, and test the RX02 that way. Jim. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 5 16:43:13 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" Message-ID: <200507052143.OAA23393@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I rarely bid on an item before the last day. This is mostly because there are so many items that one doesn't have time to stay more than a day or so ahead. Also, some people seem to like to have shorter time auctions. If I look to far ahead, I might miss one of these quickies. I usually do last minute bidding if I'm around a computer but I also like to put in what I call a place holder bid. People can then look at my previous bidding and deside if they want to waste time bidding against me. I get pissed when someone pulls an item early. It has only happened a couple of times. One the really ticked me was that someone had a mod-8 board populated with 1702A's. I'd just placed my place holder bid and they pulled the auction. What is worse is that I suspect that they later pulled the EPROMs from the board to sell separately. Now the program data that was in the EPROMs are surely lost :( Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 5 16:51:22 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" Message-ID: <200507052151.OAA23398@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" > >No, it doent keep them from finding them at the last minute, they are >just not there to find. With 7 days to look, I dont think I miss very >many because they are late to the party. If you are a dollar short >and 6 hours late, tough luck. Do you think a real auction house would >hold the bidding while someone ran from the parking lot to try to get >in a bid at the last minute? > Hi You seem to assume that we all have time to watch earlier items. I find that I can just keep up with one or two days ahead. Even so, I have to skip maybe 1 or 2 days a week. Some how, you seem to think that people are just watching for 7 days. Most are only looking one or two days ahead. If it is an item that has already gone past my max, I don't waste time on it. If it is still in my price range, I'll bid on it. Usually the first bid is just a place holder below what I expect to make as my final bid. Dwight From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Jul 5 17:02:06 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 23:02:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC stuff on ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <000001c581a9$0887c9a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <1120597093.11910.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <000001c581a9$0887c9a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <1717.82.152.112.73.1120600926.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > And finally, tonight's star prize, four VAX 6000-600s, fully loaded and, > as > a special bonus, a bunch of HSJs and cables: Meltie's going to explode :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 5 17:12:44 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 Message-ID: <200507052212.PAA23422@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >How many PDP-1's have you seen around? How many IBM 360's? There are way >more PDP-1's known to still exist than IBM 360's, and there's only a >handful of PDP-1's left. The 360 also has a huge following of historical >nuts. > Hi Sellam You have to remember, that machine was in the lease days of IBM. They took back their old machines and flattened them in a wreaking yard down at Santa Maria. I used to look for things like blocks of core memory there. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 17:19:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507052212.PAA23422@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > > >How many PDP-1's have you seen around? How many IBM 360's? There are way > >more PDP-1's known to still exist than IBM 360's, and there's only a > >handful of PDP-1's left. The 360 also has a huge following of historical > >nuts. > > > > Hi Sellam > You have to remember, that machine was in the lease > days of IBM. They took back their old machines and > flattened them in a wreaking yard down at Santa Maria. > I used to look for things like blocks of core memory > there. This is my point. Pat doesn't think an IBM 360 would sell for, say, as much as $50K. I agree with him that it may not attract the same sort of frenzy that a PDP-1 would (it's a different dynamic with IBM old iron collectors) but considering that they are probably more rare than PDP-1's (which is ironic considering the IBM 360 sold in the thousands(?) and the PDP-1 had a run of 50) if one did show up, and it was as complete the recent PDP-8 sale, then there would be a bidding frenzy like you wouldn't believe. I suspected the PDP-8 could fetch as high as $25K, and I still think this is a valid number. Bill Maddox actually got one hell of a deal. A PDP-1 equipped in an equivalent manner would surely fetch at least $25K, and so would the equivalent IBM 360 system (maybe a decked out 360/20). I'd be interested in knowing of any complete IBM 360's out in the wild (i.e. not already in museums). From what I know, there aren't many, if any (at least as yet undiscovered) so I'd like to be corrected if I'm ignorant. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 5 17:28:41 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:28:41 +0000 Subject: DEC stuff on ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <1717.82.152.112.73.1120600926.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <1120597093.11910.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <000001c581a9$0887c9a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <1717.82.152.112.73.1120600926.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1120602521.11910.55.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 23:02 +0100, Witchy wrote: > > And finally, tonight's star prize, four VAX 6000-600s, fully loaded and, > > as > > a special bonus, a bunch of HSJs and cables: > > Meltie's going to explode :) I dunno, you could just about live inside four of those :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 5 17:23:39 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:23:39 -0600 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <42CB086B.2090201@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival declared on Tuesday 05 July 2005 12:15 am: > Bear in mind, I've never actually seen a S/360 setup sell anywhere and > these are #s I've just pulled out of my ass. Your mileage may vary. > > Pat Let one not forget shipping costs on items. You can't just send a S/360 thru the US POST. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 5 17:27:56 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:27:56 -0600 Subject: DEC stuff on ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <1120602521.11910.55.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1120597093.11910.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <000001c581a9$0887c9a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <1717.82.152.112.73.1120600926.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <1120602521.11910.55.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42CB096C.2090807@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 23:02 +0100, Witchy wrote: > >>>And finally, tonight's star prize, four VAX 6000-600s, fully loaded and, >>>as >>>a special bonus, a bunch of HSJs and cables: >> >>Meltie's going to explode :) > > > I dunno, you could just about live inside four of those :) With the docs you could make a nice roof for you new home. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 5 17:38:18 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: upp 103 on ebay Message-ID: <200507052238.PAA23428@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Wow! there is a UPP103 on ebay that is already over $400. It doesn't even have any personality cards in it. I hope that the people bidding on it realize that it won't program anything, listed by the seller, without the right personality card! Being that these have 4001's on them, not many could make such a card. Dwight From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 5 17:54:56 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:54:56 +0100 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e91eb854d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > YEs, but you don't know how high the winning bidder was prepared to go > either. He might have gone way higher than you were prepared to pay. Point taken. I have had fairly good luck in physical auctions - snagged a near-complete# Jupiter Ace for ?2. Then I went and knocked the PSU cable and blew up nearly every chip on the mainboard (Lesson #1: Buy a PSU with interchangeable connectors, instead of those "spiderplug" things)... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI "I'll take your 20kV and raise you 200kV. Go on, step off that plate. I dare you." From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 5 18:08:18 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:08:18 -0500 Subject: 11/45, sick or not? Message-ID: <004101c581b6$6ecce580$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I finally allocated another day to spend on the 11/45. Unfortunately, I must say I'm not sure if it's sick or not, hopefully someone can help. First, none of the blinking lights programs I've seen blink the lights. I can store and retrieve the program correctly, but when I put 1000 on the switches and hit load address then run, it goes into run mode but no lights blink (with any display switch setting). Halt makes the processor halt. Here's what I did: 1000 005000 start: clr r0 1002 005200 inc r0 1004 006100 loop: rol r0 1006 000005 reset 1010 000775 br loop On this program I put 1000 in the switches, hit load address, then run. Address lights constantly show 1010, Data lights are blank, and the Run light is on. Data Paths setting shows 0, bus register setting shows 5, uaddr shows 177774. Another test... if I store a 5007 (clr pc) in location 0 and start the processor at location 0, the address lights show all 0's, the data lights show 2, and the following lights are lit - pause, master, kernel. I also tried this with location 0 set to 777 (br .) and get the exact same results. More info... just after power up, the address lights show 20, the data lights show 21043 (data paths). Master & Kernel are on. The uaddress setting shows 177570. So... I decided to go back to basics and check all the power points at the pins on the backplane. Here's what I found: A02A2 0 A06A2 4.931 A10A1 4.931 A26A2 4.931 A19A2 0 A16A2 0 A21A2 0 E02B2 -15 A17V2 0 A22V2 0 A17U2 0 A22U2 0 F17C1 0 E15A1 16 E01B1 9 Since my machine only has regulators at B, C, D, E, and F, I suspect the 0 volt readings above are ok. All the 5 volt test points have a very clear .2v sawtooth pattern (which looks fairly smooth at 5v). Since one manual says the ripple limit is .15, and another manual says the ripple limit is .20, I suspect I'm ok there. The ripple on -15, 16, and 9 I can't see any noticeable. And by the way... the cpu cardset was borrowed from another listmember and tested before I received it so I don't think it's something wrong with the cpu cardset itself. Any thoughts? Jay West From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 5 18:11:50 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" Message-ID: <200507052311.QAA23435@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Philip Pemberton" > >In message > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> YEs, but you don't know how high the winning bidder was prepared to go >> either. He might have gone way higher than you were prepared to pay. > >Point taken. >I have had fairly good luck in physical auctions - snagged a near-complete# >Jupiter Ace for ?2. Then I went and knocked the PSU cable and blew up nearly >every chip on the mainboard (Lesson #1: Buy a PSU with interchangeable >connectors, instead of those "spiderplug" things)... Better still, get one with the right connector or just buy the one plug and attach it to another PS. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 5 18:21:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 00:21:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: <20050705202608.IQA17632.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jul 5, 5 04:26:09 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Tony, > > >> There's a little motor/gearbox to move the head, and I think a position > >> detelction swtich. I will check the manual for you. The technical manual > >> I have gives schematics for the cassette option, exploded views, > >> dismantling instructions, etc. > > > >HEre's a little information on how this works. > > > > ... lots of useful info ... > > Thanks! - that was very helpful. > When you said "quite a fiddle" you weren't kidding ... but on the + side, > it gets easier after about the third time... Indeed. It's been about 10 years since I took mine apart, and I still remember trying to get the darn thing out of the case without damaging it. > > Problem turned out to be mechanical, a combination of dirt/aging lubricants > in the mechanics which slide the head/capstan in and out, and dirty contacts Right. I am not altogether suprised. > in the position detector leaf switch. After cleaning and lubricating the > mechanical parts, and cleaning and adjusting the switch (which is quite > finicy - hence the "several times" - it's more fun to take apart with a tape > stuck in it) ... the drive is working fine now, and the HX-20 is saving and Can't you energise the HP motor from an external supply with the drive still in the top part of the case and get it to retract the head? > loading programs like it was new! Excellent! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 5 18:23:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 00:23:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <000001c581a3$25234d10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jul 5, 5 09:50:13 pm Message-ID: > > >It should be piossible to work out what COS looks for from the source > >listings. I am not sure, though, if the version on vt100.net is recent > >enough to support this. It's a pity nobody has the COS 3.4 or COS 4.0 > >listings. > > I cannot find the COS listings in there at all. I must have missed > a manual somewhere. I'll traipse up into the attic in the next day > or two and see if I can find the right box. IIRC you go to http://www,vt100.net/rm/ and follow the obvious link for documentation. Near (at?) the top of the list is a source listing for an early version of the COS monitor. It's about half a megabyte, pdf. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 5 18:31:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 00:31:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120596982.11893.45.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 5, 5 08:56:22 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 20:13 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > What about hacking around with the Acorn SASI controller, e.g. the one in > > > > your ACW? I assume you have schematics, etc for that. > > > > > > Yep, could do - plus I've got the schematics for the Torch one > > > somewhere. Just wanted to check that there wasn't anything funny about > > > > IIRC Torch made a SCSI controller for the Beeb, it was used with a ROM > > called SCISFS. If you've found one of those you're very lucky, I am told > > that fewer than 100 were made. > > Hmm... my Torch 725 has a Torch SCSI board in it - although I recall > that it's not a complex board at all, just a handful of TTL chips. That sounds like the Beeb one. Maybe it's Torch Beeb SCSI systems that are rare -- there's a plinth to go under the monitor that contains a floppy drive, hard drive, SCSI interface, etc. > Nice - I've not seen one of the PIO boards before. And agreed, I don't > think there's a PROM on the standard FDC either. Mine is not currently in my 380Z, in fact it's never been in my 380Z. It turned up in a box of Apple ][ cards I was given (and FWIW, some of those Apple boards are not common -- things like speech input boards, etc). I must find time to trace out the schematic, wire-wrap the PIOs to connectors in the prottyping area, and stick it in the 380Z. The PIOs and CTC are in wire-wrap DIL sockets. The bus side is wired up by traces on the PCB, the user is intended to wire-wrap to the appropriate pins on the sockets. There's space on the PCB for a few more ICs if you need to fiddle around with signals, and space for at least one IDC connector to bring your I/O signals off-board to connectors on the back of the 380Z. > > > It should be piossible to work out what COS looks for from the source > > listings. I am not sure, though, if the version on vt100.net is recent > > enough to support this. It's a pity nobody has the COS 3.4 or COS 4.0 > > listings. > > Hmm yep, that is a shame. I think a lot changed between COS 3.0 and > 3.4... One day I muast disassemnle COS 3.4,,, > > > I still wonder if the PC keyboard interface would be a good idea. It > > would have an adantage to you that the public at Bletchley could bash > > away on a PC keyboard without risking anything too rare. > > Yep, that is a good point. Mind you, we've got a couple of VT220s with > dead LOPTs - they'd make nice input-only devices! I would suggest an LM201-RML interface, except that the LK201 needs +12V, which is not available on the 380Z keyboard connector (+5V and -12V are). Using that keyboard would be more work, therefore. -tony From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 5 19:27:05 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:27:05 -0400 Subject: 11/45, sick or not? In-Reply-To: <004101c581b6$6ecce580$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050705202705.00a69100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Are you sure that the lights aren't blinking too fast to see? Perhaps you can hang a logic probe (with a pulse extender) on one of the lights to be sure. Joe At 06:08 PM 7/5/05 -0500, you wrote: >I finally allocated another day to spend on the 11/45. Unfortunately, I must >say I'm not sure if it's sick or not, hopefully someone can help. > >First, none of the blinking lights programs I've seen blink the lights. I >can store and retrieve the program correctly, but when I put 1000 on the >switches and hit load address then run, it goes into run mode but no lights >blink (with any display switch setting). Halt makes the processor halt. >Here's what I did: > >1000 005000 start: clr r0 >1002 005200 inc r0 >1004 006100 loop: rol r0 >1006 000005 reset >1010 000775 br loop > >On this program I put 1000 in the switches, hit load address, then run. >Address lights constantly show 1010, Data lights are blank, and the Run >light is on. Data Paths setting shows 0, bus register setting shows 5, uaddr >shows 177774. > >Another test... if I store a 5007 (clr pc) in location 0 and start the >processor at location 0, the address lights show all 0's, the data lights >show 2, and the following lights are lit - pause, master, kernel. I also >tried this with location 0 set to 777 (br .) and get the exact same results. > >More info... just after power up, the address lights show 20, the data >lights show 21043 (data paths). Master & Kernel are on. The uaddress setting >shows 177570. > >So... I decided to go back to basics and check all the power points at the >pins on the backplane. Here's what I found: >A02A2 0 >A06A2 4.931 >A10A1 4.931 >A26A2 4.931 >A19A2 0 >A16A2 0 >A21A2 0 >E02B2 -15 >A17V2 0 >A22V2 0 >A17U2 0 >A22U2 0 >F17C1 0 >E15A1 16 >E01B1 9 > >Since my machine only has regulators at B, C, D, E, and F, I suspect the 0 >volt readings above are ok. All the 5 volt test points have a very clear .2v >sawtooth pattern (which looks fairly smooth at 5v). Since one manual says >the ripple limit is .15, and another manual says the ripple limit is .20, I >suspect I'm ok there. The ripple on -15, 16, and 9 I can't see any >noticeable. > >And by the way... the cpu cardset was borrowed from another listmember and >tested before I received it so I don't think it's something wrong with the >cpu cardset itself. > >Any thoughts? > >Jay West > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 5 19:30:22 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:30:22 -0400 Subject: upp 103 on ebay In-Reply-To: <200507052238.PAA23428@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050705203022.00a6da70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Things like Prolog 900s and iUPP103s with i4040s in them have really taken off on E-bay lately. Joe At 03:38 PM 7/5/05 -0700, you wrote: >Hi > Wow! there is a UPP103 on ebay that is already >over $400. It doesn't even have any personality >cards in it. I hope that the people bidding on >it realize that it won't program anything, listed >by the seller, without the right personality card! >Being that these have 4001's on them, not many >could make such a card. >Dwight > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 5 19:34:14 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:34:14 -0400 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050705203414.00a692c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:41 PM 7/5/05 -0400, you wrote: >Hello all, > >Believe it or not, I couldn't find this on google, so I humbly submit >it here.... > >Does anyone have a list of the built-in drive types from the original >IBM AT? I'd like the drive number, heads, cyls, and capacity if you >have the list. The setup program on the diagnostics disk only lets >you pick a type, but it does not tell you what the choices are... > >Of course, I know that later computers came along with BIOSes that let >you see the drive types instead of picking one out of thin air, but I >don't know if these followed the AT choices... They don't! They usually follow the AT types for the first ten or fifteen or so but after that they differ AND the added settings are all different in different clone BIOSs. Joe > >Thanks! >Rich B. > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 5 19:45:08 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:45:08 -0500 Subject: 11/45, sick or not? References: <3.0.6.32.20050705202705.00a69100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <001001c581c3$f596e540$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Joe wrote... > Are you sure that the lights aren't blinking too fast to see? Perhaps you > can hang a logic probe (with a pulse extender) on one of the lights to be > sure. I'll try that tomorrow... but I wouldn't think that is what is happening. Also, pardon my lack of knowledge, but... shouldn't I be seeing the .2v ripple as an AC component (ie. a sine wave)? It's a very clear perfect sawtooth. And it's exactly the same on all the 5V regulators, which strikes me as odd. Jay From mbbrutman at brutman.com Tue Jul 5 19:53:01 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 19:53:01 -0500 Subject: Swapping Hi density drives for low density drives In-Reply-To: <200507051700.j65H04f8016514@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507051700.j65H04f8016514@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42CB2B6D.4050206@brutman.com> The format bug is new to me, but I'm on DOS 3.3 anyway and DOS 3.3 does not have any problems if I used a genuine 720K drive on the Jr. It does have problems if I use a 1.44MB drive instead. Here it is in table format. DOS 3.3 with no device drivers is always used and double density diskettes are always used. Real 720K drive on Jr: Boots DOS 3.3 from original IBM DOS 3.3 diskette Formats other diskettes with no problems Boots DOS 3.3 from a double density copy of the original. Passes diagnostics 1.44MB drive on Jr: Boots DOS 3.3 from original IBM DOS 3.3 diskette Will not format other diskettes: gets invalid media error Diags runs but reports error. (Probably related to above error) Diskette is readable - just track 0 has errors A double density diskette prepared on a 'bigger' machine, whether it be by disk copy or diskette imaging program fails on the Jr when using the 1.44MB drive. These other machines all have 1.44MB drives. Even though it fails on the Jr, it boots the other machines, so the diskette is fine. I suspect some sort of timing error when the 1.44MB drives talk to the Jr controller. I know I've used an ancient 1.44MB drive before .. all of the drives I tried this time around are newer. I'm wondering if something has changed in the manufacturing/design of the more modern drives that make them less tolerant or more error prone when using double density media. It's not like people test double density media often anymore. :-) I'm not bulk erasing .. I'd better go find a bulk eraser to be sure. 720K drives are tough to find. I'm going to try the strange Teac model and dumb it down to a 720. Explain the drives on the JX - I thought those were 720 3.5 inch drives. Are the SA465 and Teac 55F 5.25 or 3.5" drives? Yes, the Qume 142s suck. Besides being slow mechanically they are not much better than the old full height Tandons - just different glitches. The drive rails always seem to get sticky, and they are noisy little A#@$@.. :-) Mike From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jul 5 20:00:26 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:00:26 -0400 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:37:28 BST." <008701c581a9$bef7e3a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <200507060100.j6610QHx002445@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jim Beacon" wrote: >There are a couple of XXDP images available on the web, so you could build >an XXDP test that will boot from the TU58 emulator, and test the RX02 that >way. Just curious, are there any XXDP images of rx50 floppies? (go ahead, laugh) I thought it would a short path to formatting an ST-2xx drive as an RD31 via ZRQCH0.BIN... -brad From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Jul 5 20:17:35 2005 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:17:35 -0400 Subject: Stock IBM XT low level format program wanted [solution] Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050705211111.03246d48@mail.degnanco.net> >I am currently in the process of doing the low level format on an IBM XT with all original parts. This is the middle era >version with a Xebec/IBM harddrive controller (no dip switches), newer diskette drive, and an IBM 20 MB hard drive. . This worked: A:>Debug c/r - -I 322 c/r -I 321 c/r -O 322 0 c/r -I 321 c/r -O 320 04 c/r -O 320 00 c/r Note: This is the value for Drive C. Substitute 20 if formatting Drive D. -O 320 00 c/r -O 320 00 c/r -O 320 05 c/r -O 320 07 c/r Note: Before you hit this carriage return, be sure you have typed the correct value shown in the previous note for drive C or D. Drive light should come on at this point and the controller will begin doing a low-level format on the drive. [It takes quite a while, a good time to re-watch Lord of the Rings...] When the drive has been formatted, the drive select light will go out and you will be returned to the - prompt. -I 321 c/r -I 320 c/r -Q And you should now be back at the DOS prompt. At this point you should enter FDISK, set the partition, and perform your high level format. [thanks Marvin Johnson and http://www.uncreativelabs.net/textfiles/drives/XEBEC.DOC From news at computercollector.com Tue Jul 5 21:19:10 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:19:10 -0400 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BA7@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200507060224.j662OIGq067327@keith.ezwind.net> In reply to the seller's form letter, which didn't address any of the concerns about the computer, I asked the seller WHY he didn't address the concerns or send personal replies. His reply to that: "Yes, I sent the same for reply to all the messages I missed here in the ebay box. I am not sure I see the need to send different ones to each person." Oh, how nice of him! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Fogg Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 8:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" > -----Original Message----- > Another fine example of why I can't stand eBay. It's not Ebay, it's humans. Ebay is just an excellent vehicle for the worst human traits. I can't stand humans. ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jul 5 21:17:27 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:17:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > This is my point. Pat doesn't think an IBM 360 would sell for, say, as > much as $50K. I do not think an S/360 processor would hit $10K, personally. On Ebay a few years back, an IBM 650 only hit $5K. IBM stuff just doesn't have the prestige. > I agree with him that it may not attract the same sort of > frenzy that a PDP-1 would (it's a different dynamic with IBM old iron > collectors) but considering that they are probably more rare than PDP-1's You must know of many PDP-1s that we do not, because I can think of roughly ten S/360 processors still around. All but one are in museums. And of course, S/370s are rarer that S/360s for some dumb reason. And S/370 clones are rarer than Blue S/370s. > (which is ironic considering the IBM 360 sold in the thousands(?) and the > PDP-1 had a run of 50) I do not have the figures handy, but I think about 2400 S/360 processors were made. Over 1000 were model 30s. > if one did show up, and it was as complete the > recent PDP-8 sale, then there would be a bidding frenzy like you wouldn't > believe. I doubt a complete S/360 system would pop up (but who knows!). By their nature, pieces were upgraded over time, resulting in systems with parts spanning 20 years of production. DASDs (disks) were some of the first things to go. I would venture to say that old IBM disks (1311/2311, 2316, 3330 and the like) are probably rarer than the processors. Also, a complete S/360 installation, even a small one, would still be quite large compared to a PDP-1. An S/360 mod 20 is the smallest, but it isn't a real machine anyway. > I suspected the PDP-8 could fetch as high as $25K, and I still think this > is a valid number. Bill Maddox actually got one hell of a deal. A PDP-1 > equipped in an equivalent manner would surely fetch at least $25K, and so > would the equivalent IBM 360 system (maybe a decked out 360/20). I do not think 20s were common, because they were bastards replaced by S/3s very shortly after introduced (there are still S/3s out there - one still in production). The 30s were the common model. 20s also do not have very nice panels - nearly nothing, actually. Odd machine. > I'd be interested in knowing of any complete IBM 360's out in the wild > (i.e. not already in museums). The only one I know of is the ex-Stumf model 22 processor, and I do not know where that went. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jul 5 21:19:22 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507052212.PAA23422@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > You have to remember, that machine was in the lease > days of IBM. They took back their old machines and > flattened them in a wreaking yard down at Santa Maria. > I used to look for things like blocks of core memory > there. Many died here as well. The scrapyard I throw my metal in Po city junked oodles of IBMs over the years. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jul 5 21:24:38 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:24:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > A Model 30 would likely produce nowhere near as much > interest as a Model 91 I doubt that. A model 91 would be too much of a handfull for even most museums. A 30 or 40 would probably be THE machine to have. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Jul 5 21:40:43 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050706024043.62322.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> --- William Donzelli wrote: > On Ebay a few years back, an IBM 650 only hit $5K. > IBM stuff just doesn't > have the prestige. Wow! Was it complete? Did anyone save any pictures from the listing? > You must know of many PDP-1s that we do not, because > I can think of > roughly ten S/360 processors still around. All but > one are in museums. To the best of my knowledge, there are only three PDP-1s still in existence, all of which are in the collection of the Computer History Museum, although one is on loan elsewhere. That would indeed make the PDP-1 more rare, though it is amazing that so few S/360s survive. There are probably bits and pieces of them still rotting in scrapyards, however. Apparently, a bunch of them running the FAA ATC system were retired in recent memory -- as I recall, William Donzelli knows more about this and may have something to add. --Bill From fernande at internet1.net Tue Jul 5 22:22:53 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:22:53 -0400 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <200507060224.j662OIGq067327@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507060224.j662OIGq067327@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42CB4E8D.5040609@internet1.net> He's replying after the auction. I wouldn't send individual replies to a bunch of people after the auction either. Most people ask questions so they know if they want to bid, or how much too bid..... after the auction it's a moot point. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > In reply to the seller's form letter, which didn't address any of the > concerns about the computer, I asked the seller WHY he didn't address the > concerns or send personal replies. His reply to that: "Yes, I sent the same > for reply to all the messages I missed here in the ebay box. I am not sure I > see the need to send different ones to each person." > > Oh, how nice of him! From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jul 5 22:24:01 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:24:01 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost In-Reply-To: <200507060100.j6610QHx002445@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200507060100.j6610QHx002445@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <42CB4ED1.1070403@mdrconsult.com> Brad Parker wrote: > Just curious, are there any XXDP images of rx50 floppies? > > (go ahead, laugh) Not laughing. As a matter of fact, I have some RX02 floppy disks with DEC labels, indicating that they were XXDP distribution disks. Until the company that gave them to me bulk-erased them.... > I thought it would a short path to formatting an ST-2xx drive as an RD31 > via ZRQCH0.BIN... There's a web page that details using SIMH and the available RL02 XXPD images to extract an RX50-based ZRQCH0. I'm not at the computer where it's bookmarked, but I will be later tonight. Or, I also have a standalone ZRQCH0 that boots from VTserver, if you wanted to go that route. By the way, I haven't been able to get in touch with Jonathan Engdahl, but if he's reading this, "Thanks!" For the XXDP directions *and* the DS500-to-PDP-11/53 howto. They both work wonderfully! Doc From mcesari at comcast.net Tue Jul 5 22:31:11 2005 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:31:11 -0600 Subject: 11/45, sick or not? In-Reply-To: <001001c581c3$f596e540$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <3.0.6.32.20050705202705.00a69100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <001001c581c3$f596e540$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <7C779B64-3E5C-4477-BCF0-4576205BFAEE@comcast.net> On Jul 5, 2005, at 6:45 PM, Jay West wrote: > Joe wrote... > >> Are you sure that the lights aren't blinking too fast to see? >> Perhaps you >> can hang a logic probe (with a pulse extender) on one of the >> lights to be >> sure. >> > > I'll try that tomorrow... but I wouldn't think that is what is > happening. Also, pardon my lack of knowledge, but... shouldn't I be > seeing the .2v ripple as an AC component (ie. a sine wave)? It's a > very clear perfect sawtooth. And it's exactly the same on all the > 5V regulators, which strikes me as odd. > > Jay > The sawtooth is correct for h744's. 0.2v is a bit much, but shouldn't be a show-stopper. The 11/70 maint. manual has a decent description of the h744 on pages 4-59 thru 4-62 (EK-11070- MM-002_May79.pdf on bitsavers). It says the voltage should range from 4.95v - 5.05v. (The description in the 11/45 manual isn't as good.) Also check for high frequency spikes at the valleys of the sawtooth, for example: 5v_ /\ /\ ... If these are more than 2 volts (go below 3v), you will have "issues". / \/ \/ Welcome to the wonderful world of aged DEC switching supplies =:O | | 3v_ | | Ascii art, feh. Put up some pics of the `scope display. :-) Mike From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Jul 5 22:37:21 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:37:21 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> <42C97E08.50404@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20050705223721.2f08d50e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:43:54 -0500 "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > As I said, loosing one bid out of millions is not my worry. I might > just as likely lose a bid because someone was looking 10 minutes > BEFORE I got it listed. But I cant worry over that one either!!!! > Its just a matter of sliding the window one way or the other. I wont > spend my time trying to satisfy one bidder in millions. > > As to how you would recognise my auction, a I said earlier, I tell you > up front that I will do that. Its no surprise. If you see my ad you > will be able to bid on it and you will see that I plan on changing it > if no one bids. > > Also, if you dont know enough to know you are interested to the extent > of the value of a minimum bid of $1, then I surely dont think you > will change your mind 20 minutes before the auction ends. So I wont > miss you. Go ahead and bit $1 and if you end up with it you rot a > bargain...or at least if you dont want the item you can send me the $1 > and I wont ship it to save you the shipping cost. > > In a real auction you would have to register, give a credit card > number or deposit check and get a number before you were allowed to > place the first bid!!! *BZZZT!!! I go to a LOT of real auctions. Usually I find I am able to register, bid on items, and carry them to my car and load them without paying or leaving anything but an address up front. I pay at the end, usually after everything is loaded in the car. This is at 'for real' auctions, often enough out in the country, which I assume is what you're talking about. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 22:34:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > On Ebay a few years back, an IBM 650 only hit $5K. IBM stuff just doesn't > have the prestige. An IBM 650 showed up on eBay? And it sold for only $5K?? Wow. > You must know of many PDP-1s that we do not, because I can think of > roughly ten S/360 processors still around. All but one are in museums. The Computer History Museum has three PDP-1's (including the original prototype). I thought there was one at a university in the Netherlands, but I can't find a reference currently. > > I'd be interested in knowing of any complete IBM 360's out in the wild > > (i.e. not already in museums). > > The only one I know of is the ex-Stumf model 22 processor, and I do not > know where that went. Thanks for the info. I think you're more right than me about the 360s. For some reason, people tend to pay more attention to DEC stuff. And I think the size issue, as you explained, is probably the key reason why. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 22:38:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <42CB4E8D.5040609@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, C Fernandez wrote: > He's replying after the auction. I wouldn't send individual replies to > a bunch of people after the auction either. Most people ask questions > so they know if they want to bid, or how much too bid..... after the > auction it's a moot point. A lot of people asked some good questions, like, "Why didn't you open up the box to find out if it really was an Apple-1?" No sane person who knows anything about the Apple 1 and Apple ][ would've passed up the opportunity to find out this information. Even the most dim-witted person would've had an inkling that he ought to check. This guy just skirted around the issue, and not cleverly I might add. I think the reason why this pisses me off is because I (and I'm sure I'm not alone here) hate idiot hucksters like this guy. I guess I should be more angry with the idiot sucker who fell for this and bid $2,550 on a plywood box with a keyboard. It's bad for the hobby on both ends. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rsnats at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 5 22:48:11 2005 From: rsnats at bellsouth.net (xyz) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:48:11 -0500 Subject: upp 103 on ebay References: <200507052238.PAA23428@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <00b401c581dd$a2e29140$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> I have a UPP103, Does anyone have the 1702A personality card (or others) that they would be willing to part with? Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 5:38 PM Subject: upp 103 on ebay > Hi > Wow! there is a UPP103 on ebay that is already > over $400. It doesn't even have any personality > cards in it. I hope that the people bidding on > it realize that it won't program anything, listed > by the seller, without the right personality card! > Being that these have 4001's on them, not many > could make such a card. > Dwight > > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 23:12:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > Ouch. The normal method of dismantling is to undo the screws, then filp > the catridge over (metal plate on the bottom) and lift off the cover. > > To reassemble, the easiest way I've found is as follows : > > Put the full spool on its spindle > > Add the drive 'puck' (that's the term I've seen in all the manuals), the > belt and the 2 idler rollers at the front of the cartridige > > Put the empty spool on its spindle, then bring the belt round it with > something like a cocktail stick. > > Run the tape round the guids and put the end between the belt and the > empty spool. Now start turning the drive puck by hand to run the tape > onto the spool (it is gripped by the belt). Give it about 5 turns round > the spool, then turn the 2 spools in opposite directions to tension the > tape. > > Fit the door and its spring. IIRC you can put the spring into the door, > hook it into a little slot to hold it tenssioned, then drop the assembly > over the pivot pin and then flick the end of the spring to release it. Well, I finally got around to attempting to re-spool this stupidly designed tape. Your description sounds like a different tape than what I was dealing with. The tape did not come off of either spool but was instead attached onto both spools. At any rate, the stupid tensioning belt (whatever its called) broke on me. Oh well, fuck that tape. I'll try to read it anyway (is the tensioning belt necessary?) I also noticed numerous spots on the the tape where the oxide had flaked off, so any re-attempt may well be futile. Whoever designed these tapes is a moron. I can't imagine how impossibly expensive it must've been to manufacture them. I hate computers. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 23:27:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > At any rate, the stupid tensioning belt (whatever its called) broke on me. > Oh well, fuck that tape. I'll try to read it anyway (is the tensioning > belt necessary?) Answer: yes, the belt is necessary, because otherwise the tape cannot move in either direction. Wow, what a great design! Kudos to the idiot that invented it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Jul 5 23:33:57 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > For some reason, people tend to pay more attention > to DEC stuff. And I > think the size issue, as you explained, is probably > the key reason why. Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some big machines and IBM made some small ones, and the DEC boxes still seem to get more attention from collectors. I think that the relative availability of DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes the DEC machines more practical if one's interest is in restoring and running them. That would explain the 8's and 11's anyway. It's frustrating how little of the older non-DEC minicomputer material seems to be available. --Bill From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jul 5 23:44:20 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:44:20 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost In-Reply-To: <200507060100.j6610QHx002445@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200507060100.j6610QHx002445@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <42CB61A4.8020409@mdrconsult.com> Brad Parker wrote: > "Jim Beacon" wrote: > >>There are a couple of XXDP images available on the web, so you could build >>an XXDP test that will boot from the TU58 emulator, and test the RX02 that >>way. > > > Just curious, are there any XXDP images of rx50 floppies? Here's that link: http://www.ba23.org//page0204.html#xxdprx50 I haven't tried this yet, but it looks sound. I will be trying it out "next chance I get", but the phone call I just got means that may be several weeks. :( Doc From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 23:42:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Maddox wrote: > Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some big machines and IBM > made some small ones, and the DEC boxes still seem to get more attention > from collectors. I think that the relative availability of DEC hardware, > software, and documentation simply makes the DEC machines more practical > if one's interest is in restoring and running them. That would explain > the 8's and 11's anyway. It's frustrating how little of the older > non-DEC minicomputer material seems to be available. Well, actually, the reason is clear. In the old days, IBM was stupid and didn't want anyone to learn about their computers. They kept them locked up behind glass walls where one could only drool over them, and only let priveleged people touch them. So in general, most IBM computers (i.e. not the 1620 or 1130) were off-limits, and thus there is relatively little hacking experience for people today who are older and richer and want to reiminisce to draw upon and drive interest in IBM machines. DEC, on the other hand, fully understood the hacking instinct. They made machines that were meant to be touched, programmed, and hacked. From their very first models they made them open and friendly and approachable and PERSONAL. Most people today who went to college from the early 1960s onwards probably had access to DEC machines and learned to love them as they touched and prodded them and flipped their switches and hacked on them all night. So that experience remains with them and today that is what they seek. So that's why a DEC PDP-1 will always have much more appeal than a gray thing that IBM created. IBM wanted to keep computers away from the masses, to keep them in the hands of the "priveleged", and their reward was to be able to continue to dominate the market to this day. DEC wanted computers to be free and for people to use them. Their reward was to be sucked up, torn apart and destroyed by a lesser company whose origins was in making clones of IBM's computers. How ironic. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 23:56:56 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:56:56 +0800 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/6/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > IBM wanted to keep computers away from the masses, to keep them in the > hands of the "priveleged", and their reward was to be able to continue to > dominate the market to this day. DEC wanted computers to be free and for > people to use them. Their reward was to be sucked up, torn apart and > destroyed by a lesser company whose origins was in making clones of IBM's > computers. *Damn* you're making me all teary eyed.. *sob* /wai-sun From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jul 6 00:24:05 2005 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 01:24:05 -0400 Subject: any NeWS software still around? In-Reply-To: <538992fb7389bea4fd2367d859104301@valleyimplants.com> (Scott Quinn's message of "Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:19:37 -0700") References: <200507041607.j64G56As004839@dewey.classiccmp.org> <538992fb7389bea4fd2367d859104301@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <0qekacbj7u.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Scott Quinn writes: > I've been doing some poking around to find software that runs on the > NeWS window system, without much luck (most of what I found was > confined to Sun demo binaries) Does anyone know of any archives of > NeWS sources? I heard reference to something called > GreatNeWS/HyperNeWS but wasn't able to find it either. I know NeWS is > somewhat out of favor, but it would be nice to have my IRIS do > something other than text-mode apps on 4Sight. You could try to find and ask the fabulous Don Hopkins. I think he's involved with http://www.connected.tv/ so you could try phoning/emailing them and asking to have a message passed on. He was part of the NeWS dev team at Sun. (He also invented the pie menu, did the UI for The Sims, and lots of other cool and noteworthy things. ) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 00:51:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 00:51:07 -0500 Subject: Trying to identify a Motorola part from a grab bag Message-ID: I have a small handful of these parts with a Motorola 'M' on them. They are 3-legged, seeming to be a transistor or similar device (I don't think they are voltage regulators). The case is plastic, smaller than a 78M05 (T220?), especially since the metal thermal transfer patch is integral to the body (not sticking up above the epoxy like on a 78M05). The markings are... R927 S AC823 I can't seem to find anything reasonable by googling Motorola and either R927 or AC823. Does this sound familiar to anyone here? Thanks, -ethan From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jul 6 01:24:14 2005 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 02:24:14 -0400 Subject: second call, storage cleanup in boston Message-ID: <0q8y0kbgfl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Hi All-- an update on my storage cleanup. I have a lot of CRTs set for recycling pickup come friday; speak now or never... items on the pile: # 3 DEC 21" mono monitor fixed frequency, for a decstation 5000/120 (PMAG-A, I think). # 1 RasterOps 21" Monitor fixed frequency, 1024x768. connector: 5 bnc. sony made trinitron tube. slightly fuzzy focus, sometimes loses horizontal hold; probably loose connection/solder joint. good to fix up or for gaming. # 1 Hitachi 19" fixed freq color monitor, BNC's on the back, this model was commonly used on Sun-3 systems. # 1 IBM 15" color vga monitor # 1 15" mono vga monitor # 1 Canon Canofile 250 document management station # 1 Sun SparcStation ELC I also may dump most of the remaining DEC VR-262 monitors, and the remaining pair of big fixed freq trinitrons, since I don't know how much longer my town will take crt's, and I could really use the space. I'd love a few more takers for decstation 2100's, vaxstation 3100's, and sparcstation 1's. Full list at http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~bressen/2005-05-too-much-stuff/stuff.html Der Mouse, your MTA doesn't like my identd. It looks 1413 compliant to me... Keith Boston, waiting to hear back from you. John Allain, haven't heard back in a while, I'm assuming you are no longer interested. Other folks, don't worry, I haven't forgotton you. --cheers --akb From GOOI at oce.nl Wed Jul 6 01:56:02 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:56:02 +0200 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D5F@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi Jerry, swap the M8639-YA and the M8029 for starters! The M8639-YA is the RQDX1 and is the famous board that does NOT pass NPR/grant. It is even stated in the Field Guide that the RQDX1 must be the last board in the chain... gd luck, - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of g-wright Sent: dinsdag 5 juli 2005 19:29 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost Hi, I'm trying to get one of my 11-23's going and finally got around to setting up a TU58 emulator. got it to boot RT-11 and now trying to get a RX-02 working. I have 3 controllers and 3 sets of RX-02's. All do the same thing. The just seems to not be able to find track 1 or Home or ??? The heads just keep going from home to maybe the first tack and back. The heads do load and the system tries quit a few times then pauses and tries again. It then errors on drive failure or read error directory not found, size function failed depends what I ask it to do. I have tried all of the boards and drives. all or them seem to do the same thing. I do not know how good the drives are but can't believe there all bad. I have recheck the switches in the RX-02 and the Jumpers on the cards. Cleaned the drives. tried different disks. Is there some kind of compatibility issue that i do not know about. Or do I have 6 dead drives. The system is a Micro PDP 11, 8 slot Rack mount, with 1 M8189 11-23+ 1 M8067 KB 256k Memory 1 M8639 YA MFM rx50 controller 1 M8029 RX-02 controller - in this order. Everything else seems to work. I added the floppy card but the rest is original. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jul 6 03:05:23 2005 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 04:05:23 -0400 Subject: Wang paper tape format? In-Reply-To: <20050625164300.0FCAF97C6B@pail.bensene.com> (Rick Bensene's message of "Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:47:02 -0700") References: <20050625164300.0FCAF97C6B@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <0q3bqsbbr0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Sellam, if you are still working that Wang tape, and think it had something to do with a Flexo, check YahooGroups for the Fridenites group; it's a Friden alums list. The inestimable Stan Kelly-Bootle turned me on to it. Flexos could be set up with pretty much any encoding desired within the limit of the number of channels supported by the model. Some of the custom hacks for various OEM's got pretty elaborate; the EDSAC I Friden reportedly managed to encode double-case with 5 channels, an awful lot of state for a mechanical device to keep track of. Does the tape in question have enough bits to be a document of substantial size? I find myself thinking about IBM's printer control paper tapes, and wondering if what you have is not so much a document as the control instructions for printing a certain document, or the numbers or other info that were supposed to be merged into a document when printed... From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 6 05:04:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 03:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Midwest 1.0 and VCF 8.0 exhibitors - sign up now! Message-ID: We've got the first two registered exhibitors for VCF 8.0: http://www.vintage.org/2005/main/exhibit.php But in the meantime, we still need plenty more exhibitors for VCF Midwest 1.0. You midwesterners are letting Pat down in a serious way! Pat has poured his heart and soul into this event and so far you folks aren't responding in kind. Let's see at least half a dozen people sign up as exhibitors this week! Time is running out... http://www.vintage.org/2005/midwest/exhibit.php Do it for the children! ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 05:18:00 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:18:00 +0100 Subject: DEC stuff on ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <000001c581a9$0887c9a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <1120597093.11910.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <000001c581a9$0887c9a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <26c11a6405070603185d40bad1@mail.gmail.com> > > A MicroVAX 3100 of some sort, comes with tapes, some of which could do > with imaging: > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5786946507&rd=1&ssp > agename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 > > I've put a bid on these, they are located in the next street down from me, I am going to take a look at them this week. I'll let you know what's there, I was only really looking at the software and backup tapes. Dan From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jul 6 05:18:03 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 06:18:03 -0400 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:44:20 CDT." <42CB61A4.8020409@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200507061018.j66AI38G023652@mwave.heeltoe.com> Doc Shipley wrote: >> >> Just curious, are there any XXDP images of rx50 floppies? > > Here's that link: > >http://www.ba23.org//page0204.html#xxdprx50 > Thanks. That web site is a good recipe, but i'm lazy and was hoping for the actual rx50 image files. I'll try it too - someone should post the resulting image files... (it would also be nice to see the "bin/simhxxdp" script, showing how *completely* lazy I am) -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jul 6 05:26:01 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 06:26:01 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:42:28 PDT." Message-ID: <200507061026.j66AQ11B023960@mwave.heeltoe.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >In the old days, IBM was stupid and didn't want anyone to learn about >their computers. They kept them locked up behind glass walls where one >could only drool over them, and only let priveleged people touch them. So My experience is the S/360 & 370's machines ran 24x7 and there was little time left over for hacking. But if you got to be friends with the operators and read all the manuals and what source code you could find, you could do some pretty fun hacks. I used to submit jobs into the dos/vs job queue and view source code on cics terminals long before I saw commercial support for the such things. I did it by hacking during nights and weekends when the operator would let me try a few experimental things (and didn't mind if it brought the whole thing down). The DEC machines (in my experience) were often not in a 24x7 enviroment and often in educational settings where bringing down the system was not such a huge deal. Obviously there are exceptions to both sides of this. it's just my experience... (I remember seeing a lonely pdp-8 with a DF-32 sitting in the corner of a CAD lab and someone said - "yea, have at it - see if you can get it to boot". no one ever said that about a S/360 :-) -brad From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jul 6 07:44:35 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 07:44:35 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050706074209.05723d08@mail> At 11:33 PM 7/5/2005, William Maddox wrote: >I think that the relative availability of >DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes >the DEC machines more practical if one's interest is >in restoring and running them. I think it's because more people were exposed to DEC equipment early in their educational life - high school and college - and therefore imprinted affectionate memories. Baby duck syndrome. You might as well ask which album is their favorite. - John From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jul 6 07:54:59 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:54:59 +0200 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost In-Reply-To: <200507060100.j6610QHx002445@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200507060100.j6610QHx002445@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <42CBD4A3.4070700@hachti.de> >>There are a couple of XXDP images available on the web, so you could build >>an XXDP test that will boot from the TU58 emulator, and test the RX02 that >>way. > > Just curious, are there any XXDP images of rx50 floppies? I used E11 and simh to run the xxdp images I found somewhere on the net (bitsavers?). Then I first made a virtual RX02 diskette and made it bootable. Then I made a second virtual RX02 diskette with the programs I wanted. After having the images ready I transferred them to the original diskette using vtserver. The same way I made my RT11 floppies.... From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jul 6 08:08:16 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:08:16 -0400 Subject: 11/45, sick or not? References: <004101c581b6$6ecce580$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.32.20050705202705.00a69100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <17099.55232.941857.305235@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: Joe> Are you sure that the lights aren't blinking too fast to see? Joe> Perhaps you can hang a logic probe (with a pulse extender) on Joe> one of the lights to be sure. An easy way to check that out: replace the "rol r0" by an "inc r0". That way r0 will cycle through all 65536 values, and you should easily see that in the lights. If that doesn't help, try replacing the reset with a "mov r0, @#177570" (010037 177570, and of course the branch becomes 000774). Then the incrementing pattern should show when the Display register is selected. paul From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jul 6 08:02:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:02:04 -0400 Subject: upp 103 on ebay In-Reply-To: <00b401c581dd$a2e29140$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> References: <200507052238.PAA23428@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050706090204.00959ab0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Yes and No. Joe At 10:48 PM 7/5/05 -0500, you wrote: >I have a UPP103, Does anyone have the 1702A personality card (or others) >that they would be willing to part with? > >Bob >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 5:38 PM >Subject: upp 103 on ebay > > >> Hi >> Wow! there is a UPP103 on ebay that is already >> over $400. It doesn't even have any personality >> cards in it. I hope that the people bidding on >> it realize that it won't program anything, listed >> by the seller, without the right personality card! >> Being that these have 4001's on them, not many >> could make such a card. >> Dwight >> >> >> > > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jul 6 08:23:01 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:23:01 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: <200507061026.j66AQ11B023960@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <17099.56117.644891.682526@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brad" == Brad Parker writes: Brad> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> In the old days, IBM was stupid and didn't want anyone to learn >> about their computers. They kept them locked up behind glass >> walls where one could only drool over them, and only let >> priveleged people touch them. So Brad> My experience is the S/360 & 370's machines ran 24x7 and there Brad> was little time left over for hacking. But if you got to be Brad> friends with the operators and read all the manuals and what Brad> source code you could find, you could do some pretty fun hacks. I've had some operator time in college on a 360 model 44 (running OS/PCP, which was unusual since most 44s ran an OS specific to that machine -- it didn't normally have a full 360 instruction set). It belonged to a nearby grad school, and didn't run anywhere near 24x7. So powering it on and off was part of the experience. I had some fun hacks on it. The console wasn't considered a normal I/O device (it had no name so programs couldn't reference it in the usual way). But if you constructed a few of the relevant data structures "by hand" you could read/write it just fine. So I messed up all the UI conventions by doing exactly that. The other hack was a switch into supervisor mode from my application (the WATFOR compiler, actually...) to install a patch into the kernel to capture an interrupt (some operator panel button). It was really easy, quite obvious from reading the manuals. I found out later in grad school that the same security bug was still around in OS/MVS 21.x. Didn't use it there (verified it existed but resisted the temptation to exploit it). Lastly, there was the 360 program for reading and printing PDP-11 DOS formatted tapes... including search by name, something OS/360 could not do even for native tapes... I wish I still had that program, but no such luck, not even a listing. So yes, you could hack those machines if they weren't too large and you were in the right spot. But I'll agree that I'd grab a PDP-11 way before I'd be tempted by a 360. paul From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jul 6 08:40:35 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > An IBM 650 showed up on eBay? And it sold for only $5K?? > > Wow. Two bidders. It ended up on a well known collection. > Thanks for the info. I think you're more right than me about the 360s. > For some reason, people tend to pay more attention to DEC stuff. And I > think the size issue, as you explained, is probably the key reason why. Size matters when collecting anything. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jul 6 08:45:06 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706024043.62322.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Wow! Was it complete? Did anyone save any pictures > from the listing? No, but the machine is in a well known collection (he may lurk here). > There are probably bits and pieces of > them still rotting in scrapyards, however. Apparently, > a bunch of them running the FAA ATC system were > retired in recent memory Quite a few years ago, now. They are long gone. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Jul 6 09:19:01 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:19:01 -0500 Subject: 11/45, sick or not? In-Reply-To: <004101c581b6$6ecce580$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050706091831.0245d718@mail.ubanproductions.com> Jay, Have you single stepped through the program to see if it is doing what you expect it to? --tom At 06:08 PM 7/5/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I finally allocated another day to spend on the 11/45. Unfortunately, I >must say I'm not sure if it's sick or not, hopefully someone can help. > >First, none of the blinking lights programs I've seen blink the lights. I >can store and retrieve the program correctly, but when I put 1000 on the >switches and hit load address then run, it goes into run mode but no >lights blink (with any display switch setting). Halt makes the processor >halt. Here's what I did: > >1000 005000 start: clr r0 >1002 005200 inc r0 >1004 006100 loop: rol r0 >1006 000005 reset >1010 000775 br loop > >On this program I put 1000 in the switches, hit load address, then run. >Address lights constantly show 1010, Data lights are blank, and the Run >light is on. Data Paths setting shows 0, bus register setting shows 5, >uaddr shows 177774. > >Another test... if I store a 5007 (clr pc) in location 0 and start the >processor at location 0, the address lights show all 0's, the data lights >show 2, and the following lights are lit - pause, master, kernel. I also >tried this with location 0 set to 777 (br .) and get the exact same results. > >More info... just after power up, the address lights show 20, the data >lights show 21043 (data paths). Master & Kernel are on. The uaddress >setting shows 177570. > >So... I decided to go back to basics and check all the power points at the >pins on the backplane. Here's what I found: >A02A2 0 >A06A2 4.931 >A10A1 4.931 >A26A2 4.931 >A19A2 0 >A16A2 0 >A21A2 0 >E02B2 -15 >A17V2 0 >A22V2 0 >A17U2 0 >A22U2 0 >F17C1 0 >E15A1 16 >E01B1 9 > >Since my machine only has regulators at B, C, D, E, and F, I suspect the 0 >volt readings above are ok. All the 5 volt test points have a very clear >.2v sawtooth pattern (which looks fairly smooth at 5v). Since one manual >says the ripple limit is .15, and another manual says the ripple limit is >.20, I suspect I'm ok there. The ripple on -15, 16, and 9 I can't see any >noticeable. > >And by the way... the cpu cardset was borrowed from another listmember and >tested before I received it so I don't think it's something wrong with the >cpu cardset itself. > >Any thoughts? > >Jay West > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jul 6 09:22:46 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 10:22:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: second call, storage cleanup in boston In-Reply-To: <0q8y0kbgfl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q8y0kbgfl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <200507061433.KAA25186@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Der Mouse, your MTA doesn't like my identd. > It looks 1413 compliant to me... You don't include details. I looked at the headers of your list message, and saw > Received: from keith.ezwind.net (keith.ezwind.net [209.145.140.15]) > by dewey.classiccmp.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j666ODxC024100 > for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 01:24:13 -0500 (CDT) > (envelope-from akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to) > Received: from lanconius.mirror.to (ident5 at lanconius.mirror.to [66.92.72.194]) > by keith.ezwind.net (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j666XSHg068962 > for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 01:33:29 -0500 (CDT) > (envelope-from akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to) > Received: from lanconius.mirror.to (bressen at localhost [127.0.0.1]) > From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) I searched my logs (yesterday's, and today's so far) for 209.145.140.15, 66.92.72.194, akb, ident5, and bressen. None of these turned up any hits at all. Without more information I can't say much. What IP would I have seen the connection come from? When did the connection occur (please include timezone, or specify UTC, or some such)? What was the identd response? Something like that - enough for me to dig up the relevant log entries and find out what happened. Most often, the error I assume you got ("perhaps you're still using [an identd] written to RFC 931 syntax even though RFC 1413 obsoleted 931 over a decade ago?") means the identd returns a response that claims to be a UNIX username but which includes a space in the username (a real example from today's log: "12902 , 25 : USERID : UNIX : fwuser"). Under 931, that would be the username "fwuser"; under 1413, " fwuser". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Fri Jul 1 23:03:17 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:03:17 -0500 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050701110341.0524ba00@mail> Message-ID: <200507020412.j624C3t0027947@keith.ezwind.net> For a while I did some buying of stuff on eBay to jump-start our museum. One thing I learned is to look at the feedback score of a seller. Anything less than 99% should be a huge red flag unless the seller has only a few deals, in which case one misunderstanding can kill the number. 255 transactions is enough to get a good picture. < 98%. Run, don't walk, to the nearest exit. At the very least this guy is going to be argumentative. Also note that not a single one of those negatives was resolved satisfactorily. HTH, Gil Please note changed email address: gcarrick at uta.edu A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE Coach - ICPC Programming Team University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Fri Jul 1 23:12:50 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:12:50 -0500 Subject: Problems using VG PROM/RAM in 8800b In-Reply-To: <002c01c57e74$4bd69f70$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <200507020421.j624LZxg027993@keith.ezwind.net> I have two 8800b's and a smattering of S-100 boards. Let me know if you don't get any feedback & we will see if we can work something out. For some reason we have a pile of S-100 machines. We are in Arlington, TX if you or any others are in the neighborhood, please drop by. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE Coach - ICPC Programming Team University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 2:37 PM > To: CCTalk > Subject: Problems using VG PROM/RAM in 8800b > > All: > > I want to get the Turnkey Monitor running on my 8800b. > I have a VG PROM/RAM board (which has 1k of RAM and an EPROM > programmer) and some 2716 EPROMS. I made an adapter so I can > use 2716 chips in the 2708 sockets. So far, so good. > > I configured the board for $C000, no RAM and all other > jumpers per the default for the board with the following exceptions: > > (1) "Use PRESET or POC for power-on/reset jump" The > defaultis for the POC signal to be connected to the reset > circuitry on the VG PROM board. > The other jumper option is to connect PRESET to the reset > circuit on the VG PROM board. This is now set for the PRESET > line to be connected to the board's POR circuit. I don't have > a schematic so I don't know what this is doing exactly. > > (2) "Phantom generated if power-on/reset" This disables > other memory boards on reset so it can respond to the CPU > reset jump to location 0 (making the board an auto-start > board). I cut this jumper. > > (3) "Jump to PROM/RAM board if power-on/reset" This > causes the board to respond to the CPU jump to location 0 on > RESET. I set this jumper to the equivalent of disable. > > With this configuration, I can't EXAMINE or DEPOSIT > to/from any location. When I remove the board, the Altair > responds normally, so it definitely is this board. > > Does anyone have any experience using this board in an > Altair (or other non-Vector) system? What's a working > configuration for this? Does anyone have a spare generic ROM > board I can buy/trade for? > > Thanks. > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ > > > From RCamarda at aol.com Sun Jul 3 00:16:28 2005 From: RCamarda at aol.com (RCamarda at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 01:16:28 EDT Subject: CCS 2422 Floppy Disk Controller Message-ID: Hi, I know this was an old posting I saw on the web. I just wondered if you still have the CCS 2422 controller. I have one and am in need of the U22 and U23 IC's or what is programmed into them I am also looking to buy another card in any condition. If you can be of help, I would really appreciate it! Thanks! Rich From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jul 4 05:28:35 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:28:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: KVM In-Reply-To: <20050704005704.003FB73029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: from "chris" at Jul 03, 2005 08:24:24 PM <20050704005704.003FB73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <12631.195.212.29.91.1120472915.squirrel@195.212.29.91> > It was thus said that the Great chris once stated: > few of the units with no problem, but the PS/2->serial mouse adaptors > won't > work through it---I've tried. Well rather, what didn't work was: > > PS/2 mouse -> KVM -> PS/2 cable -> serial adaptor -> computer > You must use a PS/2 mouse that actually came with a serial adaptor. Just any PS/2 mouse won't work. What happens is that the mouse detects on power-up whether or not it's plugged into a PS/2 port or a serial adaptor, and then starts sending stuff out in the appropriate mode. Gordon. From g-wright at att.net Mon Jul 4 16:45:56 2005 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 21:45:56 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/23+ and rx-02 drives, need help!!! Message-ID: <070420052145.5217.42C9AE1300023A4F0000146121603760219B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, I'm trying to get one of my 11-23's going and finally got around to setting up a TU58 emulator. got it to boot RT-11 and now trying to get a RX-02 working. I have 3 controllers and 3 sets of RX-02's. All do the same thing. The just seems to not be able to find track 1 or Home or ??? The heads just keep going from home to maybe the first tack and back. The heads do load and the system tries quit a few times then pauses and tries again. It then errors on drive failure or read error directory not found, size function failed depends what I ask it to do. I have tried all of the boards and drives. all or them seem to do the same thing. I do not know how good the drives are but can't believe there all bad. I have recheck the switches in the RX-02 and the Jumpers on the cards. Cleaned the drives. tried different disks. Is there some kind of compatibility issue that i do not know about. Or do I have 6 dead drives. The system is a Micro PDP 11, 8 slot Rack mount, with 1 M8189 1123+ 1 M8067 KB 256k Memory 1 M8639 YA MFM rx50 controller 1 M8029 RX-02 controller in this order. Everything else seems to work. I added the floppy card but the rest original. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc. From vrs at email.msn.com Mon Jul 4 16:59:47 2005 From: vrs at email.msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:59:47 -0700 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: <3.0.6.32.20050704173717.00a78100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: From: "Joe R." > Wow! Somebody really wanted that one! > me=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1? Seems reasonable to me. Wish I had the kind of money and room that would let me collect stuff like that. Vince From aek at spies.com Tue Jul 5 09:32:08 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 07:32:08 -0700 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 Message-ID: <378a99212423645222298d7788e6151d@spies.com> > $50k for an S/360 does seem too high, though Time to start looking.. I know a couple of people who would pay that for a 360/50 system, if one could be found. Most were chopped up when the price of gold was high in the '70s. From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Tue Jul 5 13:31:57 2005 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 19:31:57 +0100 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120588317.21300.3.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 08:01 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > How many PDP-1's have you seen around? How many IBM 360's? There are way > more PDP-1's known to still exist than IBM 360's, and there's only a > handful of PDP-1's left. The 360 also has a huge following of historical > nuts. I'm not sure I like being called historical. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From websupport at degnanco.com Tue Jul 5 13:46:01 2005 From: websupport at degnanco.com (Degnan Co.) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:46:01 -0400 Subject: Stock IBM XT low level format program wanted Message-ID: I have an IBM XT with all original parts. This is the middle era version with a Xebec/IBM harddrive controller (no dip switches), newer diskette drive, and an IBM 20 MB hard drive. The computer boots with no errors. It looks like the computer was never used, it's pristine. Might anyone have a link to a program that I can use to run a low level format specific to this controller card and hard drive? I have had trouble locating the low level format program via DEBUG. I have found a number of Debug commands on the Internet for other drives and controllers, but none for this. I have searched the segement offsets between C000:0000 and EC00:0000 in 0400 increments. .Maybe I am blind! Is there an IBM official low level format diskette image out there? That would be preferred. Thanks...Bill -- E N D -- From thalunil at kallisti.de Tue Jul 5 17:43:00 2005 From: thalunil at kallisti.de (Alex Bihlmaier) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:43:00 +0200 Subject: Altair 8800 Layout Message-ID: <42CB0CF4.7000605@kallisti.de> Hi! I am searching for the layout of an old Altair 8800 home computer. A friend of mine is reading Steven Levys "Hackers" and is fascinated about the Altair 880 homebrew computer. I searched the net with google about this computer but i cannot find sth. useful. Anyone here with infos about the Altair 8800? grtx from germany, thalunil From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 02:00:41 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 00:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free 8" floppy drives, Washington DC area In-Reply-To: <42C9D400.nailIRJ1YCK3B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20050706070041.88511.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> if I wind up coming down there, it might be a good idea to forward me your telephone number. I can't swear I'll be able to, but it seems a shame if they all got chucked. Thanks. --- Tim Shoppa wrote: > I've still got many 8" floppy drives available for > free right > outside Washington DC. Will not ship, you must pick > up. Some > full-height, some half-height, some in desktop > enclosures with > power supplies and some in rack mount enclosures > with power supplies. > > If interested, drop me an e-mail at my non-list > address, > shoppa at trailing-edge.com. > > Also some misc ST506-type (MFM) hard drives, and an > 8" hard drive > with 50pin+20 pin interface (ST??? can't remember) > in an enclosure > with power supply. I think that 8" hard drive > worked with a Compupro > Disk2 controller when I last tried it (like a decade > ago) but I no longer > have the Disk2. > > Tim. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From news at computercollector.com Wed Jul 6 11:26:17 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:26:17 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <200507020412.j624C3t0027947@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200507061631.j66GVSsg074027@keith.ezwind.net> >>> 255 transactions is enough to get a good picture Good point. For example, I've got 29 transactions, with one negative. But in that user's feedback, anyone can see that he's just a big moron. (To my amusement, he even wrote in all caps, "SELLERS BEWARE!") Alas, my ranking is 96.7 percent. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Director Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 12:03 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' Subject: RE: Apple _1_ on ebay??? For a while I did some buying of stuff on eBay to jump-start our museum. One thing I learned is to look at the feedback score of a seller. Anything less than 99% should be a huge red flag unless the seller has only a few deals, in which case one misunderstanding can kill the number. 255 transactions is enough to get a good picture. < 98%. Run, don't walk, to the nearest exit. At the very least this guy is going to be argumentative. Also note that not a single one of those negatives was resolved satisfactorily. HTH, Gil Please note changed email address: gcarrick at uta.edu A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE Coach - ICPC Programming Team University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jul 6 12:02:09 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 10:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 11/45, sick or not? Message-ID: <200507061702.KAA23880@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jay West" > >Joe wrote... >> Are you sure that the lights aren't blinking too fast to see? Perhaps you >> can hang a logic probe (with a pulse extender) on one of the lights to be >> sure. > >I'll try that tomorrow... but I wouldn't think that is what is happening. >Also, pardon my lack of knowledge, but... shouldn't I be seeing the .2v >ripple as an AC component (ie. a sine wave)? It's a very clear perfect >sawtooth. And it's exactly the same on all the 5V regulators, which strikes >me as odd. > >Jay > > Hi Jay No, the ripple on a rectified filter will look like a saw tooth. If you look carefully, you'll see that the leading edge follows the AC while the trailing has a slight dip. This is normal. Dwight From roosmcd at dds.nl Wed Jul 6 12:05:34 2005 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (roosmcd at dds.nl) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:05:34 +0200 Subject: Fs/ft. Motorola Powerstack, the good-looking version (+ 8" floppydrive) In-Reply-To: <200507061623.j66GNNma031292@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507061623.j66GNNma031292@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1120669534.42cc0f5ed677a@webmail.dds.nl> Hello, No idea if it will really fit into the old category, but I'd consider this a classic computer. I've always wanted to have one for the case, but now I simply have too many :). The machine I'm talking about is a Motorola E-series, which looks like this machine (I found the picture via Google, it's not from mine): http://www.hudat.com/~florit/20030624-MotorolaPowerstack/Powerstack-ThreeQuartersView.JPG what I want to sell/trade, are two of the bottom units, with some memory (I think 32Mb, 72-pin) and a sled with cd-rom drive. No Hd's, but I have the OS (AIX 4.1.4 motorola verison, but it also runs NT, linux and solaris). Looking to trade for SGI stuff, Philips CD-i, laserdisc, 100V speakers or ??!?!. greetings, Michiel ps. I also have a nice 8" floppydrive in black external as/400 housing I'd be willing to trade for stuff. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jul 6 12:15:39 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 12:15:39 -0500 Subject: Fs/ft. Motorola Powerstack, the good-looking version (+ 8" floppydrive) In-Reply-To: <1120669534.42cc0f5ed677a@webmail.dds.nl> References: <200507061623.j66GNNma031292@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1120669534.42cc0f5ed677a@webmail.dds.nl> Message-ID: <42CC11BB.7090805@mdrconsult.com> roosmcd at dds.nl wrote: > Hello, > > No idea if it will really fit into the old category, but I'd consider this a > classic computer. I've always wanted to have one for the case, but now I simply > have too many :). The machine I'm talking about is a Motorola E-series, which > looks like this machine (I found the picture via Google, it's not from mine): > > http://www.hudat.com/~florit/20030624-MotorolaPowerstack/Powerstack-ThreeQuartersView.JPG > > what I want to sell/trade, are two of the bottom units, with some memory (I > think 32Mb, 72-pin) and a sled with cd-rom drive. No Hd's, but I have the OS > (AIX 4.1.4 motorola verison, but it also runs NT, linux and solaris). Looking to > trade for SGI stuff, Philips CD-i, laserdisc, 100V speakers or ??!?!. I'm guessing you're in the Netherlands? I'd love to have a copy of the Motorola AIX. I have a PowerStack that needs it. Any chance you could post a CD image somewhere, or upload it to my ftp server? Doc Shipley From spc at conman.org Wed Jul 6 12:22:21 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:22:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KVM In-Reply-To: <12631.195.212.29.91.1120472915.squirrel@195.212.29.91> from "gordonjcp@gjcp.net" at Jul 04, 2005 11:28:35 AM Message-ID: <20050706172222.AFA6373029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great gordonjcp at gjcp.net once stated: > > > It was thus said that the Great chris once stated: > > > few of the units with no problem, but the PS/2->serial mouse adaptors > > won't > > work through it---I've tried. Well rather, what didn't work was: > > > > PS/2 mouse -> KVM -> PS/2 cable -> serial adaptor -> computer > > > > You must use a PS/2 mouse that actually came with a serial adaptor. Just > any PS/2 mouse won't work. What happens is that the mouse detects on > power-up whether or not it's plugged into a PS/2 port or a serial adaptor, > and then starts sending stuff out in the appropriate mode. I used one of those. In fact, it's still in use, just plugged directly into the computer instead of through the KVM. -spc (Are Cobalt RaQs on topic yet?) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jul 6 13:04:18 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:04:18 -0400 Subject: Altair 8800 Layout Message-ID: <0IJ7006D6WUMK7O6@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Altair 8800 Layout > From: Alex Bihlmaier > Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:43:00 +0200 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > >Hi! > > > >I am searching for the layout of an old Altair 8800 home computer. >A friend of mine is reading Steven Levys "Hackers" and is fascinated >about the Altair 880 homebrew computer. > >I searched the net with google about this computer but i cannot find >sth. useful. > > >Anyone here with infos about the Altair 8800? I have two. A very early 8800 and a later 8800b-t. There is a huge amount of info on the internet at many sites that would be a good start. Several also include simulators of the machine. Then if you have specific questions it will be easier. Allison From tomj at wps.com Wed Jul 6 13:18:11 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050706111621.A964@localhost> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Christian Corti wrote: > Hopefully it will be working again some day... Until now there's only one > working LGP-30 in the world, only some rooms away :-) I really hope getting > copies from all the paper tapes. We do have a large collection of software, > too, but there might be some paper tapes we don't have. We also have nearly > all printsets for the (European) LGP-30 and LGP-21, blueprints, maintenance > manuals etc. If you ever find ANY software specific to the LGP-21 I would love to have a copy of it. I have found zero in two years of looking. I have the subroutine library that's in the LGP-21 Programmer's Manual only. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jul 6 13:25:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair 8800 Layout Message-ID: <200507061825.LAA23898@clulw009.amd.com> Hi You might send directly to this fellow. I suspect that he is not a regular classiccmp( although he should be ). Dwight >From: "Allison" > >> >>Subject: Altair 8800 Layout >> From: Alex Bihlmaier >> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:43:00 +0200 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >> >>Hi! >> >> >> >>I am searching for the layout of an old Altair 8800 home computer. >>A friend of mine is reading Steven Levys "Hackers" and is fascinated >>about the Altair 880 homebrew computer. >> >>I searched the net with google about this computer but i cannot find >>sth. useful. >> >> >>Anyone here with infos about the Altair 8800? > >I have two. A very early 8800 and a later 8800b-t. >There is a huge amount of info on the internet at many sites that >would be a good start. Several also include simulators of the machine. >Then if you have specific questions it will be easier. > > > >Allison > From computer at officereach.net Wed Jul 6 13:36:29 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 11:36:29 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? Message-ID: I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment that I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, replacing some broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx "Portable"; is there anyone on here who has a particular fondness for commodore equipment? From tomj at wps.com Wed Jul 6 13:34:16 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang paper tape format? In-Reply-To: <0q3bqsbbr0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <20050625164300.0FCAF97C6B@pail.bensene.com> <0q3bqsbbr0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20050706112619.S964@localhost> How about just slurping the tape in, and playing with trivial transformations (various code set --> ASCII) to see if any intelligence pops up? If you had recognizable sentences, for example, followed by bursts of nonsense, likely that's end-of-line gunk. And so on. I recognize it's likely to not be voluminous free prose like this email, easy to detect. It might be very difficult to decode. It seems unlikely (though possible) that a WP document was punched onto tape; it is more likely to be a software patch, bootstrap, diagnostic, diag or error dump, random utility, or non-of-the-above. Imbibe the hallucinogen of choice, and stare at the tape; you can usually see binary-loader record patterns (often where they actually exist). Human eyes & brain are VERY good at spotting visual patterns. Once I get in sync with a tape I can usually spot ITA2 cr, lf, nul etc sequences, it's not hard. Slurp to disk, leader and trailer and all, would probably be a good start. On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > Sellam, if you are still working that Wang tape, and think it had > something to do with a Flexo, check YahooGroups for the Fridenites > group; it's a Friden alums list. The inestimable Stan Kelly-Bootle > turned me on to it. > > Flexos could be set up with pretty much any encoding desired > within the limit of the number of channels supported by the model. > > Some of the custom hacks for various OEM's got pretty elaborate; > the EDSAC I Friden reportedly managed to encode double-case with 5 > channels, an awful lot of state for a mechanical device to keep track of. > > Does the tape in question have enough bits to be a document > of substantial size? > > I find myself thinking about IBM's printer control paper tapes, and > wondering if what you have is not so much a document as the control > instructions for printing a certain document, or the numbers or > other info that were supposed to be merged into a document when printed... > > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Jul 6 13:46:16 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 11:46:16 -0700 Subject: SASI vs. SCSI References: <200507020011.j620B53Q075696@dewey.classiccmp.org> <42C69849.8040209@brutman.com> Message-ID: <42CC26F8.1F1FD8D7@msm.umr.edu> Gateway Electronics in San Diego had some about 6 months or a year ago and have had them forever (sasi adapters for pc-jr's). I think they had some others as well. I don't recall any software in evidence, and I don't know if it was standard to include that on a floppy, or if it was in the adapter in a rom. The RIM rings a bell. You might call them and see if they have any left, as there were several there when i was browsing last. we may go down for a weekend, and I'll try to remember to look. Please email me offlist so I can find your address if you are interested, as it will be several weeks before such a trip. Also there are junk shops in El Cajon calling for me to check them... Jim "Michael B. Brutman" wrote: > I almost hate to ask the obvious, but does something have specifications > for the SASI protocol? That would go a long way to answering some of > the questions. > > There was a SASI adapter for a PCjr that went in the modem slot from a > company called RIM. It had a bridge board that connected it to a > Seagate MFM drive. The chipset name escapes me at the moment, but I > thought it was either NCR or Zilog doing second source for NCR. It > smells awfully like SCSI. > > (I don't have the beast - I've just seen pictures of it. But I'd love > to know what makes it tick.) > > Mike From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 6 13:46:19 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:46:19 +0100 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c5825b$008d1d10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >IIRC you go to http://www,vt100.net/rm/ and follow the obvious link for >documentation. Near (at?) the top of the list is a source listing for an >early version of the COS monitor. It's about half a megabyte, pdf. My mistake is assuming I was the source for the manuals there - obviously some others snuck in that's one of them! But I'm sure I've seen a listing in paper form, so I still need to go hunting in the attic. Antonio From tomj at wps.com Wed Jul 6 13:52:25 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "DEC vs IBM vs ...": vintage availability, was WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050706113449.O964@localhost> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Maddox wrote: > It's frustrating how little > of the older non-DEC minicomputer material seems to be > available. I always figured it was you conspiratorial DEC people, buying up other-make stuff and destroying it to make a one-DEC-world. Most of the comments in this thread seem correct; the leasing arrangements; the stuff went back to the factory or was upgraded in-place. A lot of DEC stuff went to universities, where there was a lot of hands-on in the guts (how many 360's were moded by students and faculty?), departmental hand-me-down leading to surplus. Lots of students had direct access to DEC software and hardware; that breeds familiarity (baby-duck syndrome), actual knowledge, archived (ahem) softare and docs, and clearly drives nostalgia. unix. Even when that sucked, you could see source, docs, and improve it. The box was open. IBM was far more straightforwardly business/industrial oriented, and throughout my computer work history (1975 - 1990's) I never heard of ANYONE EVER having the ability to hack non-PC IBM hardware and sofware at the OS level. OS/360. TSO. The box was terribly, terribly closed. Many manu's like DG appealed to industrial purchasers, who having less connection to computer culture than university stoonts, upgraded, scrapped, returned, etc. It's legally/financially problematic for corporations to let employees have old gear (it can be done, but most don't make the effort or fear IP leakage). DEC had large industrial entre, obviously, more or less the same as other manu's (at whatever scale) but I think university culture overrode it as far as retro goes. Most of DECs products are in the SSI-up integration era; you can actually make them work. Same true for DG et al, but sheer numbers means that when 90% of (DEC, DG, etc) product got crushed, that 10% was 100,000 units, not 1000 units. The LGP-30, as an example of a 2nd-gen machine that is well-known and loved, is (today) a balky, large, delicate and hard to manage system of hot, fragile, wildly organic and analog components, far out side most technologists experience (eg. vacuum tubes and practice involving first-principle physics). It's closer to a damned radio than it is to an SN7400. And only some 500 were made, and at 800+ lbs they weren't exactly forgotten in closets, like stacks of DEC boards can be. [Lest anyone think I hate IBM -- I don't. I really love the 360 architecture, and would have loved writing assembly for it. It's just that their business practices weren't conducive to non-business cultural uses of their systems, until the peecee.] From tomj at wps.com Wed Jul 6 14:00:02 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050706115303.I964@localhost> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Well, actually, the reason is clear. > > In the old days, IBM was stupid and didn't want anyone to learn about > their computers. I wouldn't call it stupid, the goal was profit, but I get your drift :-) I'll let the IBM fans rip you up. Bandaids are in the cabinet. A similar but much more richly-deserved fate awaits the miserable SOB f*cks like Disney et al; in 5, 10, 20, 50 years much of their content will be utterly and completely inaccessible to the world due to their proprietary DRM lockdown mentality. The increasing use of little security engines running inside your peecee (that you have no legal access to) that have dynamic relationships with the software-distribution website do the same thing. I am definitely an open-source fan, but not fanatic, I do think there's plenty of space for proprietary works and DRM in general, but there still is some justice in the fact that the more-open stuff will be more likely to be historically accessible. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 14:19:03 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:19:03 -0500 Subject: "DEC vs IBM vs ...": vintage availability, was WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706113449.O964@localhost> References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> <20050706113449.O964@localhost> Message-ID: On 7/6/05, Tom Jennings wrote: > A lot of DEC stuff went to universities, where there was a lot of > hands-on in the guts (how many 360's were moded by students and > faculty?), departmental hand-me-down leading to surplus. I myself have picked up a DECmate I, a PDP-8/a, a PDP-11/34, and several PDP-11/03s from Ohio State surplus over the years. VAXen and other PDP-11s I've gotten from scrap from local and not-so-local businesses. My experience of what's on the street is that I see 20+ DEC machines for each IBM machine, and even then, it's always the smaller IBM boxes like S/34s, S/36s and AS/400s. I'm sure lease vs purchase, aided by a once-robust DEC third-party reseller community have a lot to do with the state of things. -ethan From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Jul 6 14:21:20 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 12:21:20 -0700 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types References: <1120597093.11910.47.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42CC2F30.1954A8B5@msm.umr.edu> Entry 15 was set special, so if a setup program wanted to scan the table, and it could be a different size, it had a marker to search for. Everyone skipped it so that you could either use bios format programs, the IBM AT prep program for a geometry from 0-14, or a program that was loaded from a floppy with the disk controller to format the drive. The explanation claims that the table entry was used to indicate special parameters, but I recall some bios programs that used this, and the disks were not very happy to be moved to other controller types. Extended tables went from 16-40 usually. Int 41 is the pointer to the table. It can be dumped using dos debug if the machine is booted in real mode. I found a nice reference for the old dos stuff here: http://www.clipx.net/ng/ Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 20:39 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > I have a BIOS source listing that gives the hard disk parameter tables. > > It's not the _original_ BIOS (it's the 1985 one), but I think earlier > > ones just defined fewer drive types. Anyway : > > Home come entry 15 was reserved? (and why pick 15?) > > cheers > > J. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jul 6 14:56:09 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:56:09 +0100 Subject: Emulex DM01 cables Message-ID: <42CC3759.1070108@gjcp.net> Currently looking at buying one of these from eBay to replace my fried RQD11B. Does anyone have a manual, including the cable pinouts? Gordon. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 14:58:01 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:58:01 -0500 Subject: source of blank 82S123s? Message-ID: I'm in search of a couple of blank 82S123s for my recently-aquired SuperElf boards. Who still carries such things? Googling on 'blank 82s123' did not turn up anything promising. Thanks, -ethan From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Wed Jul 6 15:13:10 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:13:10 -0400 Subject: IMSB300 Ethernet Box or IMSB431 Ethernet TRAM Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE40E@exchange.olf.com> Hi, Does anyone know the voltage requirements are for the ethernet transiever on these parts? Is it 12V or is it 5V? The specs do not mention this. I know that the Coral HPT02 uses 5V and the IMSB407 also uses 5V, but what about the IMSB300 and/or IMSB431? Note that the IMSB300 actually contains an IMSB431 Ethernet TRAM underneath the hood.. I have an idle IMSB300 which I want to start using... Thanks, Ram From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 6 15:20:09 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stock IBM XT low level format program wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050706131332.B23128@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Degnan Co. wrote: > I have an IBM XT with all original parts. This is the middle era > version with a Xebec/IBM harddrive controller (no dip switches), On almost all of the Xebec/IBM bouards, near the center of the board there are 8 solder pads for holding 4 switches. That provides for four possibilities for each of two drives. All open is normally 10M, so you probably have at least one jumper in that area. > .Maybe I am blind! Is there an IBM official low level format diskette > image out there? That would be preferred. The IBM "official" low level format routine is on the "Advanced Diagnostics" diskette. The stock XT is one configuration that Speedstor handles reasonably well. From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Jul 6 15:38:17 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 15:38:17 -0500 Subject: source of blank 82S123s? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050706153104.02354d10@mail.ubanproductions.com> Hi Ethan, I bought some 82S23, which is the open collector version of the tristate 82S123, from Halpin a while back. If you only need a couple I could sell/trade you some. Alternatively, based on this cross reference: http://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/spies.cgi?action=url&type=info&page=PromRef.txt These are all equivalent: Fujitsu SIG AMD MMI NAT TI HAR 7112 32x8 TS == 82S123, 27S19, 6331, 74S288, 18S030, 7603 You might be able to find some NTE74S288 parts or the AMD27S19. In fact a search at jameco.com for 27s19 brings up 82S123 parts for $8.89 each in the AMD variety. You have to be careful about the differences in programming on the different vendors... --tom At 02:58 PM 7/6/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I'm in search of a couple of blank 82S123s for my recently-aquired >SuperElf boards. Who still carries such things? > >Googling on 'blank 82s123' did not turn up anything promising. > >Thanks, > >-ethan From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 6 15:40:35 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:40:35 +0100 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c5826a$f7381840$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >IIRC you go to http://www,vt100.net/rm/ and follow the obvious link for >documentation. Near (at?) the top of the list is a source listing for an >early version of the COS monitor. It's about half a megabyte, pdf. A quick trip to the attic restored my faith in my sanity (not a good measure of anything, but it's all I have to go on :-)). I found "Resaerch Machines COS 4.0 Assembly Listing" for Release 4.0B from October 1981. The reason I've not scanned it is that it is a perfect bound book (I think that's the term, pages glued into the spine). So I can and will scan it, but it will take a little time since I cannot spend hours at the office scanner :-) There are other similarly unscanned RML manuals up there, so I'll make a proper list at the weekend. Antonio From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jul 6 16:16:36 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: source of blank 82S123s? Message-ID: <200507062116.OAA23954@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >I'm in search of a couple of blank 82S123s for my recently-aquired >SuperElf boards. Who still carries such things? > >Googling on 'blank 82s123' did not turn up anything promising. > >Thanks, > >-ethan Hi Ethan Jameco list them, using the AMD number AM27S19. The are suppose to be the same but most likely program a little different. Most data i/o 19's can handle them with the unipack. I've had good luck with Jameco on PROMs but I've had bad luck on RAMs. They gladly replace them with some more U-TEST-UMs ( 2114's ). Later Dwight Oh!, http://www.jameco.com From jim.isbell at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 16:25:03 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:25:03 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have one SX64 and love it. I have it rigged with a ham interface so that I can send digital and receive digital on my HT 2meter rig. On 7/6/05, plato computer wrote: > I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment that > I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, replacing some > broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx "Portable"; is there > anyone on here who has a particular fondness for commodore equipment? > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jul 6 17:35:05 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 17:35:05 Subject: Computer Museum Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I got this today from a from a guy that says that he's planning on setting up a computer museum in the Orlando area. Interested parties should contact him directly. Joe >Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:18:49 -0400 >From: Vince Custodio >Subject: Re: Computer Museum >X-Originating-IP: [68.205.53.38] >X-Sender: vincemba1 at hotmail.com >To: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com >X-Originating-Email: [vincemba1 at hotmail.com] >X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine >Original-recipient: rfc822;rigdonj at cfl.rr.com >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jul 2005 20:18:49.0714 (UTC) > FILETIME=[EBACCD20:01C58267] > >Hi, Joe > >Thank you for your quick response. >We are only in the initial planning stage, thus we need to know what >equipment is available. Locating, and subsequently gathering, the collection >is the longest process, so we are starting it first. >Any possible contributors should email me a list of equipment. This list is >forwarded to our Artifact Collection Committee. They decide which pieces >have historical value and thus contact the contributor to determine the >condition of the equipment as well the terms of donation/loan to the museum. >We have a million things to do before the museum even opens. Thus,the museum >building's location and whether it will be constructed or will be an >existing structure is much further down the road. > >Do you have other collector's email addresses? or would you prefer to >forward my emails? > >Thank you > >Sincerely, >Vince Custodio > > > > >>From: "Joe R." >>To: Vince Custodio >>Subject: Re: Computer Museum >>Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 15:48:04 >> >>Hi Vince, >> >> I have several items that I would consider loaning to your museum. Mike >>Haas, dogas at bellsouth.net, is a collector in Savanna Ga. He may consider >>loaning you some equipment. I think there is another collector in the >>Miami area and I think there are a couple in Tampa area but I don't know >>them. There's another guy near me the used to collect computers but he's >>inactive now. He may loan you some stuff though. >> >> What kind of computers are you looking for? >> >> Any idea when you plan on opening your museum? >> >> Joe >> >>At 02:43 PM 7/6/05 -0400, you wrote: >> >Hi, >> >My name is Vince Custodio. I am an Orlando entrepreneur with an interest >>in >> >old computers and their history. I will be opening a Computer Museum in >>the >> >Orlando, FL area. This project is in collaboration with ITT Technical >> >Institute, Lake Mary, FL. >> >I saw your posting at: >> >http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/ccrs_list.html. >> >We are currently seeking computer equipment donations or loans to our >> >museum. As a donor, you will receive credit in the respective exhibit as >> >well as having a lifetime membership to the museum. You will also be >>invited >> >to our ribbon-cutting ceremony and grand opening. >> >We will not physically need equipment right now but I am compiling a list >>of >> >potential contributors. >> > >> >Do you have anything that you would consider contributing? >> >Do you know other collectors in Florida? >> > >> >If you have any questions and prefer to call me, you may do so at: 321 >> >377-3412 (my company is Pro Detailz so that is how I answer my cell >>phone) >> > >> >Thank you. >> > >> >Vince Custodio >> >1122 Brantley Estates Dr >> >Altamonte Springs, FL >> > >> > >> > >> > > > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 6 17:00:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: <42C96493.1C70AEA5@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > What I don't understand is why most people don't take a look at the > Vintage Computer Marketplace on a regular basis. Here here! :) > I just sold an MPF-1 on VCM (http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/) > for $20.00. Sure, I could have probably gotten more for it on Ebay, but > why not list stuff *FIRST* on VCM with a reasonable price that sellers > can live with????? And once the ad copy and photo(s) are taken, it is > trivial to move the listing over to Ebay if it doesn't sell on VCM. This is very true. I find deals all the time on the VCM that go unnoticed because people don't take it seriously. Well, I'll admit that Patrick and I haven't had any time to put into it for about a year now, but it runs itself and it runs well. And at some point in the not too far off future, we will be finally rolling out all the promised enhancements and be engaging in a HUGE marketing push, so the early adopters will be the ones who will come out on top when this happens (i.e. when we start charging to use it...the people using it now are actually accumulating free service credits). > And I couldn't agree more with Joe's comments; there is a LOT of stuff > out there for anyone who takes the time to develop a network and > sources. As one example, I would have never gotten the worlds largest > supply of existing Polymorphic software, documentations, equipment, etc. > without the network I have in place. Nor would I (in years past) have > aquired some 50 coinop arcade games at no charge (most are now gone.) I'll have to add my voice (again) to this. I've always advocated actually going out into "the wild" and finding your collection there. Not only is it much more fun (you actually get to leave your computer and get some sun and fresh air for a change), but you find better deals, you actually get to inspect what you buy beforehand (no mystery "Apple 1" deals), when you do find something its a great rush, and you get to MEET REAL LIVE PEOPLE and interact with them and (gasp!) develop relationships. Also, a lot of times you end up getting more than you bargained for. You inevitably meet up with someone at a swap meet who has just a sampling of the crap in their garage sitting in the parking lot. You get invited to come over to their place and clean out their garage, and that's where they offer you that "old Altair computer that they were going to throw away in the next spring cleaning". You get to hear great first hand stories from people who lived in the past that you are so enamored with, and you get to pass along those stories to others, plus tell ones of your own making as you recount the details of that amazing haul of S-100 or PDP-8 hardware that filled you trunk for which you paid $50. And please don't whine to me about how we have it easy in the Silicon Valley over . The SV is one of the most picked over places on the planet. People from all over come here to raid the shelves at Weirdstuff and HSC and all the other surplus places here, so it's not like we have it easy (at least not like it was in the 1990s :) EVERYPLACE has old computers waiting to be found. Some of you just have to look harder than others, but they are there. The way you find them is by getting off your ass (and getting some air and sun) and meeting people and developing relationships. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 6 17:06:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > It costs me the 35 cent listing fee but thats better than spending 30 > minutes packing something for some A**H*** that bid $1 with 10 seconds > to go. So why not start your auction at a price which you would be happy to get for that item? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 6 17:21:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LGP-30 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > John Bohner got it.. I know he's a big fan of the G-15 and friends. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5784697941 > > I'll have to put the pics up for it, it was REALLY nice, full > docs, and software. Hopefully I can get copies from John at > some point. Holy crap. This slipped under my radar. Not that I would've bid on it (already have too much big stuff taking up space and waiting for restoration) but these just do not come around often. And $2,250 is a great deal. That's what a typical Altair sells for, and this thing is *-=MUCH=-* cooler than an Altair. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Jul 6 17:50:45 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 18:50:45 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: References: <20050701151552.5cc9ba50.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050706184935.03b7c448@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >There was nothing the first TRS-80 was that the Apple ][ wasn't. Grey? ;-) Still clawing my way back from the edge of the earth... Damn near fell off! :-O Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From computer at officereach.net Wed Jul 6 18:29:23 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:29:23 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: wow, that's super cool! I always thought the SX64 was one of the coolest things that I have ever seen, and it was way ahead of its' time. I gotta laugh on the box where it says "business or office"... beacuse, um, that 40 columns sure makes spreadsheets a pain. if someone would like it, I am going to be dis-engaging myself from it - $100.00 plus shipping and it's yours. -----Original Message----- From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:25:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? > I have one SX64 and love it. I have it rigged with a ham interface so > that I can send digital and receive digital on my HT 2meter rig. > > On 7/6/05, plato computer wrote: > > I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment > that > > I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, replacing > some > > broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx "Portable"; is > there > > anyone on here who has a particular fondness for commodore equipment? > > > > > > > > > -- > Jim Isbell > "If you are not living on the edge, well then, > you are just taking up too much space." > W5JAI > 1967 UltraVan #257 > 1936 SS-100 (replica) > 1970 E-Type > 1982 XJ6 > 1985 XJS > 1988 XJ40 > From computer at officereach.net Wed Jul 6 18:29:29 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:29:29 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? Message-ID: wow, that's super cool! I always thought the SX64 was one of the coolest things that I have ever seen, and it was way ahead of its' time. I gotta laugh on the box where it says "business or office"... beacuse, um, that 40 columns sure makes spreadsheets a pain. if someone would like it, I am going to be dis-engaging myself from it - $100.00 plus shipping and it's yours. -----Original Message----- From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:25:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? > I have one SX64 and love it. I have it rigged with a ham interface so > that I can send digital and receive digital on my HT 2meter rig. > > On 7/6/05, plato computer wrote: > > I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment > that > > I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, replacing > some > > broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx "Portable"; is > there > > anyone on here who has a particular fondness for commodore equipment? > > > > > > > > > -- > Jim Isbell > "If you are not living on the edge, well then, > you are just taking up too much space." > W5JAI > 1967 UltraVan #257 > 1936 SS-100 (replica) > 1970 E-Type > 1982 XJ6 > 1985 XJS > 1988 XJ40 > From jim.isbell at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 18:25:46 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 18:25:46 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Remember when that was made, 40 columns wasnt so bad AND its in full color!!! Thats a good price if it is fully operational. I dont need two enough to pay $100 for a econd one, but I am sure someone will want it. On 7/6/05, plato computer wrote: > wow, that's super cool! I always thought the SX64 was one of the coolest > things that I have ever seen, and it was way ahead of its' time. I gotta > laugh on the box where it says "business or office"... beacuse, um, that > 40 columns sure makes spreadsheets a pain. > > if someone would like it, I am going to be dis-engaging myself from it - > $100.00 plus shipping and it's yours. > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:25:03 -0500 > Subject: Re: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? > > > I have one SX64 and love it. I have it rigged with a ham interface so > > that I can send digital and receive digital on my HT 2meter rig. > > > > On 7/6/05, plato computer wrote: > > > I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment > > that > > > I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, replacing > > some > > > broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx "Portable"; is > > there > > > anyone on here who has a particular fondness for commodore equipment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Jim Isbell > > "If you are not living on the edge, well then, > > you are just taking up too much space." > > W5JAI > > 1967 UltraVan #257 > > 1936 SS-100 (replica) > > 1970 E-Type > > 1982 XJ6 > > 1985 XJS > > 1988 XJ40 > > > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 6 17:49:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:49:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/23+ and rx-02 drives, need help!!! In-Reply-To: <070420052145.5217.42C9AE1300023A4F0000146121603760219B0809079D99D309@att.net> from "g-wright@att.net" at Jul 4, 5 09:45:56 pm Message-ID: > The system is a Micro PDP 11, 8 slot Rack mount, with > 1 M8189 1123+ > 1 M8067 KB 256k Memory > 1 M8639 YA MFM rx50 controller > 1 M8029 RX-02 controller in this order. > > Everything else seems to work. I added the floppy card > but the rest original. I'm not a 'Qbus person', much prefering Unibus machines, but IIRC one of the ST506/RX50 controllers (RQDX1 I think) had to be the last device on the bus since it didn't pass on grants. If that's the controller you have, then the RXV21 would mever get BGs or NPGs and woul;d probably do what you're seeing. Try putting the RXV21 first... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 6 17:55:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:55:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45, sick or not? In-Reply-To: <001001c581c3$f596e540$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jul 5, 5 07:45:08 pm Message-ID: > > Joe wrote... > > Are you sure that the lights aren't blinking too fast to see? Perhaps you > > can hang a logic probe (with a pulse extender) on one of the lights to be > > sure. > > I'll try that tomorrow... but I wouldn't think that is what is happening. Have you tried single-stepping the program from the frontpanel? Be warned, though, that I had a particularly nasty fault on my 11/45. It would mess up branch instructions (and some others IIRC) but when I single-stepped it at the microcode level (I have a KM11 card), it all seemed fine. It turned out to be a chip that was 'going slow'.... > Also, pardon my lack of knowledge, but... shouldn't I be seeing the .2v > ripple as an AC component (ie. a sine wave)? It's a very clear perfect > sawtooth. And it's exactly the same on all the 5V regulators, which strikes > me as odd. No, that sounds right. Even on a linear supply, the ripple is not sinusoidal -- it's an almost-linear ramp down as the smoothing capacitor discharges follwed by a little bit of a sinusoid as the capacitor is recharged. On a switching regulator (which this is), the ripple is likely to look even more like a sawtooth. You might like to replace the output capacitors in your regulator bricks, but I really don't think this is the problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 6 18:10:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:10:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jul 5, 5 09:12:41 pm Message-ID: > > Well, I finally got around to attempting to re-spool this stupidly > designed tape. It's actually avery ingenious design (it's the same design, basically, as QIC tape cartridges). Remember you want a constant tape speed past the head. By driving the outside of the tape spools at a constant speed (that's what the belt and drive puck do), rather than turning the spools themselves by their axles, that's exactly what you get. It avoids the capstan, pinch roller, slipping clutches, etc, used in audio tape and cassette recorders. > > Your description sounds like a different tape than what I was dealing > with. The tape did not come off of either spool but was instead attached > onto both spools. THere were several designs, sure... > > At any rate, the stupid tensioning belt (whatever its called) broke on me. > Oh well, fuck that tape. I'll try to read it anyway (is the tensioning > belt necessary?) I also noticed numerous spots on the the tape where the Of course the belt is necessary. It's how the tape is driven. You can borrow one from another tape cartridge. > oxide had flaked off, so any re-attempt may well be futile. Whoever Obviously you've lost data where that oxide is missing. You'll also have problems becuase these drives use optincal BOT/EOT detection (there's a small hole in the tape, a mirror as part of the cartridge housing, and a bulb/photodetector in the drive). The system will think it's got to the end of the tape if it finds a clear spot. > designed these tapes is a moron. I can't imagine how impossibly expensive > it must've been to manufacture them. See above. Tell you what, you see if you can come up with a better design. > > I hate computers. Feel free to send me all your collection. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 6 18:13:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:13:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> from "William Maddox" at Jul 5, 5 09:33:57 pm Message-ID: > Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some big > machines and IBM made some small ones, and the DEC > boxes still seem to get more attention from > collectors. I think that the relative availability of > DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes I suspect is is partly the doucmentation. DEC machines of this period tended to come with schematics rather than board-swapper guides (which is what the IBM service manuals I've seen were). There are thus plenty of PDP8, PDP11, etc shematics around. And IBM used custom parts a lot earlier than DEC. I've not seen a 370, but I'd be suprised if it was all off-the-shelf components. Unibus PDP11s PDP8s, etc tended to be. -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jul 6 19:09:35 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "DEC vs IBM vs ...": vintage availability, was WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706113449.O964@localhost> Message-ID: > A lot of DEC stuff went to universities, where there was a lot of > hands-on in the guts (how many 360's were moded by students and > faculty?), departmental hand-me-down leading to surplus. IBM stuff tends to be VERY hard to mod because of the design philosophy - everything is done very properly and checked. Attempting a mod will result in modifying the circuit that checks the modded circuit, then the circuit that checks the checker... IBM docs are amongst the best out there, once the system is understood. Usually these docs were pretty much available in the computer room, so a bribe (beer works at a university) would get the Big Blue Binders. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jul 6 19:20:42 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 01:20:42 +0100 Subject: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: <1120502180.10023.68.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <42C96493.1C70AEA5@rain.org> <1120502180.10023.68.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <754177864d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <1120502180.10023.68.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > Most of the stuff I get (albeit for the museum, not personally) comes > from local usenet groups, Tried that one - most of the uk.leeds.*.forsale type NGs seem to be full of asshat spammers and such. Oh how I miss my spam-filtered cis-dfn newsfeed :( > or the university - it's at the stage now I think I mentioned the "destroy everything" attitude the local universities and colleges share. > where the local population seem to know to chuck things this way. I've > only recently joined the local freecycle group, so I'm not sure how good > that'll be in terms of stuff yet. I'm on the Leeds freecycle group - haven't seen anything interesting yet. > Landfill / scrapyards in the UK don't seem to be anything like their US > counterparts according to what I've seen on this list - there just > aren't items there for the taking. I've noticed that too :-/ > There is stuff out there anyway - you just need to give people a prod > every once in a while and get yourself noticed as someone who can give > this stuff a home. Time to put something of a virtual classiccmp museum on my website then, I guess. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn now and again. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 6 19:16:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > I hate computers. > > Feel free to send me all your collection. Come get it. It's yours. Bring along six 40' shipping containers and a crew of 7. I'll give you 24 hours and you have to take all or nothing. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 19:39:03 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:39:03 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050706193903.65dfeb27.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 01:14:07 -0500 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival declared on Tuesday 05 July 2005 12:15 am: > > On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > I am already shocked about the price being higher than $1000 !!! > > > > How should students like me be able to play with old computers > > > > if some people thing that these machines have the value of their > > > > weight in gold....!?! > > > > > > Get a Data General or an Interdata - they tend to be cheaper by a > > > good stretch. > > > > > > I was actually thinking about starting an informal pool on the > > > Straight-8 sale, but did not get around to it. When the next > > > awesome machine hits email, lets set one up. > > > > > > Anyone want to venture what a PDP-1 would fetch? S/360? > > > > $50K. > > $1M! > > Wait, are we supposed to give realistic numbers? > > $50k for a -1 seems high but not totally unreasonable for a machine > that is in excellent (running) condition, if it were sold through a > 'real' auction house, like Christie's, under the best possible > circumstances. > > $50k for an S/360 does seem too high, though, because the S/360 has a > lower 'collectability' (interest, and more of them were produced). > Price on the S/360 would probably also follow what CPU model (among > other factors). A Model 30 would likely produce nowhere near as much > interest as a Model 91, and peripherals would likely make a bigger > difference with the S/360 than they would with the -1. At best, I'd > give a number in the $10k-$20k range for a relatively complete, > working, and scratch-free S/360 setup (with the most desirable CPU and > > peripherals) under the 'best conditions'. > How about an IBM 650? Are there people out there with them still operable? I still have one loose-leaf binder for the 650. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 19:44:15 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:44:15 -0500 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050706194415.0cd68265.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:41:13 -0400 Richard Beaudry wrote: > Hello all, > > Believe it or not, I couldn't find this on google, so I humbly submit > it here.... > > Does anyone have a list of the built-in drive types from the original > IBM AT? I'd like the drive number, heads, cyls, and capacity if you > have the list. The setup program on the diagnostics disk only lets > you pick a type, but it does not tell you what the choices are... > > Of course, I know that later computers came along with BIOSes that let > you see the drive types instead of picking one out of thin air, but I > don't know if these followed the AT choices... > As one suggestion, you do not need to use the original IBM Setup disk. There are plenty of third-party MS-DOS utilties to do the AT Setup, and I'm pretty certain some of them are more user friendly and include drive topologies. On this topic, I recently located an original IBM Monochrome monitor, so for me it's now just a matter of pulling out the EGA Techref and jumpering the IBM EGA card in my AT for EGA monochrome and plugging the monitor and an original PC-AT 84 key keyboard in, and I can fire up the AT I've been wanting to check out for over a year. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 20:00:25 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:00:25 -0500 Subject: Stock IBM XT low level format program wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050706200025.6338cdc1.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:46:01 -0400 "Degnan Co." wrote: > I have an IBM XT with all original parts. This is the middle era > version with a Xebec/IBM harddrive controller (no dip switches), > newer diskette drive, and an IBM 20 MB hard drive. The computer > boots with no errors. It looks like the computer was never used, > it's pristine. Might anyone have a link to a program that I can > use to run a low level format specific to this controller card and > hard drive? I have had trouble locating the low level format program > via DEBUG. I have found a number of Debug commands on the Internet > for other drives and controllers, but none for this. I have searched > the segement offsets between C000:0000 and EC00:0000 in 0400 > increments..Maybe I am blind! Is there an IBM official low level > format diskette image out there? That would be preferred. > Thanks...Bill > -- E N D -- > Low level formatting a drive on a Xebec card doesn't involve using Debug to 'jump into' a textmode utility as it does for Western Digital 8 bit cards and many other PC-XT cards. For the Xebec card, there are specific I/O registers to write values into and read values back from. You can do this using the 'in' and 'out' commands in debug to read and write to those ports manually, or you can use the aformentioned IBM utility. {You could probably work up something 'spiffy' using Basic if you wanted.) I've never used the IBM utility, and used to have the write/read details. It's a nerve-wracking procedure, because you have to blindly do a bunch of in and out commands with debug, then after a few, the hard drive light comes on and it runs the format. Then after awhile, the drive light goes out and there's a register you can read to verify it worked. I remember that the tech ref for the Xebec card should list the I/O instruction set (i.e. the config registers, and what 'commands' are issued by issuing I/O commands to where,) and at one point I remember 'reverse engineering' the Debug In/Out sequence I had and figuring out exactly what each write accomplished. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 20:08:52 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:08:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/23+ and rx-02 drives, need help!!! In-Reply-To: References: <070420052145.5217.42C9AE1300023A4F0000146121603760219B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: On 7/6/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > The system is a Micro PDP 11, 8 slot Rack mount, with > > 1 M8189 1123+ > > 1 M8067 KB 256k Memory > > 1 M8639 YA MFM rx50 controller > > 1 M8029 RX-02 controller in this order. > > I'm not a 'Qbus person', much prefering Unibus machines, but IIRC one of > the ST506/RX50 controllers (RQDX1 I think) had to be the last device on > the bus since it didn't pass on grants. If that's the controller you > have, then the RXV21 would mever get BGs or NPGs and woul;d probably do > what you're seeing. Try putting the RXV21 first... Especially since the boot ROMs pull the boot sector off the floppy without interrupts. You should see some activity, hear heads, something, but no OS prompt. You could always check the contents of low memory to see if the boot routine was able to pull the first sector off the diskette. In any case, you can't put the RVX21 behind the RQDX1. -ethan From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 20:10:14 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:10:14 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050706201014.3e790a6a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Maddox wrote: > > > Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some big machines and IBM > > made some small ones, and the DEC boxes still seem to get more > > attention from collectors. I think that the relative availability of > > DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes the DEC > > machines more practical if one's interest is in restoring and > > running them. That would explain the 8's and 11's anyway. It's > > frustrating how little of the older non-DEC minicomputer material > > seems to be available. > > Well, actually, the reason is clear. > > In the old days, IBM was stupid and didn't want anyone to learn about > their computers. They kept them locked up behind glass walls where > one could only drool over them, and only let priveleged people touch > them. So in general, most IBM computers (i.e. not the 1620 or 1130) > were off-limits, and thus there is relatively little hacking > experience for people today who are older and richer and want to > reiminisce to draw upon and drive interest in IBM machines. > > DEC, on the other hand, fully understood the hacking instinct. It could be reasonably argued that DEC just couldn't make it into the 'First Tier' market so had to make do with the hacker/low-end market. IBM pretty much OWNED the first tier in that era. > They made > machines that were meant to be touched, programmed, and hacked. From > their very first models they made them open and friendly and > approachable and PERSONAL. Most people today who went to college from > the early 1960s onwards probably had access to DEC machines and > learned to love them as they touched and prodded them and flipped > their switches and hacked on them all night. So that experience > remains with them and today that is what they seek. > > So that's why a DEC PDP-1 will always have much more appeal than a > gray thing that IBM created. > > IBM wanted to keep computers away from the masses, to keep them in the > hands of the "priveleged", and their reward was to be able to continue > to dominate the market to this day. DEC wanted computers to be free > and for people to use them. Their reward was to be sucked up, torn > apart and destroyed by a lesser company whose origins was in making > clones of IBM's computers. I'd hardly say that said 'clones' that you refer to come from the same heritage as the IBM mainframes you mentioned in the first part of your posting. The IBM Clone market was open, far more open, in fact, than any other computer architecutre in history. Open, in fact, to the point where it has been completely comodified and collectors and enthusiasts 'can't get their arms around it' and tend to scorn the clone machines. Believe me, a day will probably come when people who are in their twenties now will wax nostalgic on that old Leading Edge or Packard Bell clone they started out on as a little kid, and want one just like it. And most of them will have been melted down. > > How ironic. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ][ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 20:14:24 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:14:24 -0500 Subject: "DEC vs IBM vs ...": vintage availability, was WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706113449.O964@localhost> References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> <20050706113449.O964@localhost> Message-ID: <20050706201424.1d71da13.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Tom Jennings wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Maddox wrote: > > [Lest anyone think I hate IBM -- I don't. I really love the 360 > architecture, and would have loved writing assembly for it. It's > just that their business practices weren't conducive to > non-business cultural uses of their systems, until the peecee.] > They were open enough, at least, that people like my dad were able to 'check out' and bring home an IBM 5100 on the weekend for us to fool with. I remember loading and playing Star Trek on the 5100 at home. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 20:17:13 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:17:13 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050706201713.363f8c94.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:13:47 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some big > > machines and IBM made some small ones, and the DEC > > boxes still seem to get more attention from > > collectors. I think that the relative availability of > > DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes > > I suspect is is partly the doucmentation. DEC machines of this period > tended to come with schematics rather than board-swapper guides (which > is what the IBM service manuals I've seen were). There are thus plenty > of PDP8, PDP11, etc shematics around. > > And IBM used custom parts a lot earlier than DEC. I've not seen a 370, > > but I'd be suprised if it was all off-the-shelf components. Unibus > PDP11s PDP8s, etc tended to be. > Even where IBM cards of that era used 'commodity' components, they were usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere mortal to figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor networks and resistors/capacitors (except those few that have color-code bands.) IBM was an empire unto itself. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 20:23:26 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:23:26 -0500 Subject: Trying to identify a Motorola part from a grab bag In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050706202326.757d2a94.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 00:51:07 -0500 Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have a small handful of these parts with a Motorola 'M' on them. > They are 3-legged, seeming to be a transistor or similar device (I > don't think they are voltage regulators). The case is plastic, > smaller than a 78M05 (T220?), especially since the metal thermal > transfer patch is integral to the body (not sticking up above the > epoxy like on a 78M05). > > The markings are... > > R927 > S > AC823 > > I can't seem to find anything reasonable by googling Motorola and > either R927 or AC823. Does this sound familiar to anyone here? > To figure out if they're simple transistors, use the diode function on a VOM to find the 'diode' junctions between pins. If they're simple transistors, you can then use the crude 'transistor tester' function on many VOMs to figure out Emitter, Base, Collector (by hooking it up until you get a reasonable 'Beta' reading on the VOM). If you have enough of them, you can make wire up a bunch of flip flops and make your own discrete digital computer. (this last paragraph included to bring this comment back on-topic). From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jul 6 20:27:18 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:27:18 -0500 Subject: "DECnet isn't dead" in Datamation and on Slashdot Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050706202656.0aaed2d0@mail> http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/06/1823205&tid=230&tid=218 - John From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 20:28:49 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:28:49 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050706202849.2455b3d6.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:25:03 -0500 "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > I have one SX64 and love it. I have it rigged with a ham interface so > that I can send digital and receive digital on my HT 2meter rig. > > On 7/6/05, plato computer wrote: > > I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment > > that I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, > > replacing some broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx > > "Portable"; is there anyone on here who has a particular fondness > > for commodore equipment? > > > > > > > I am now working in a deparment where there is an SX64 still 'in production' hooked up to a test fixture and occasionally used. I am keeping a close eye on it and hope one day when it gets 'obsoleted' it'll head my way. (in fact it'll probably be my job to rig up it's replacement) I received a complete regular Commodore 64 system with 1571 drive a few weeks ago, all boxed up, with the custom data aquisition card for the test fixture application it was used for. Yep. There's at least ONE SX-64 out there still IN USE that I hope to acquire when it's retired. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 20:35:42 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:35:42 -0500 Subject: "DECnet isn't dead" in Datamation and on Slashdot In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050706202656.0aaed2d0@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050706202656.0aaed2d0@mail> Message-ID: <20050706203542.4676ca3d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:27:18 -0500 John Foust wrote: > > http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/06/1823205&tid=230&tid=218 > > - John > Yes, but C-Net is probably dead. C-Net was a popular Commodore-based BBS package. I was active on a few boards that ran it years back- amazing to think now that we'd all auto-dial like mad to get access to a C64 machine with two (or three) 1541 drives and a 300 baud modem. (sorry for the topic drift) From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jul 6 21:17:28 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 22:17:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706193903.65dfeb27.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > How about an IBM 650? Are there people out there with them still > operable? There are at least two in private hands. One showed up right around me, but I did not get it. Being in IBM land, I have to think there are more great machines sitting just within my reach. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 6 21:21:02 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: <20050706202849.2455b3d6.chenmel@earthlink.net> from Scott Stevens at "Jul 6, 5 08:28:49 pm" Message-ID: <200507070221.TAA13070@floodgap.com> > I am now working in a deparment where there is an SX64 still 'in > production' hooked up to a test fixture and occasionally used. I am > keeping a close eye on it and hope one day when it gets 'obsoleted' > it'll head my way. (in fact it'll probably be my job to rig up it's > replacement) I received a complete regular Commodore 64 system with > 1571 drive a few weeks ago, all boxed up, with the custom data > aquisition card for the test fixture application it was used for. > > Yep. There's at least ONE SX-64 out there still IN USE that I hope to > acquire when it's retired. Could a photograph be taken? I think the Commodore masses would love it. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Quote for the day: " ------------------------------------------------------- From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jul 6 21:24:55 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 22:24:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706201713.363f8c94.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > Even where IBM cards of that era used 'commodity' components, they were > usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere mortal to > figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor networks and > resistors/capacitors (except those few that have color-code bands.) Unless you get the cross reference... For the pre-1978 (or so) machines, you can pretty much debug down to the chip level. With the right Blue Binders, pretty much every last part is detailed to a silly extent. WAY more detailed than DEC docs. A number of the logic families are also really quite close to off the shelf items, just in weird packages. Of course, some would say the reason why IBM stuff is cool is BECAUSE it is so alien! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From computer at officereach.net Wed Jul 6 21:33:51 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:33:51 -0700 Subject: Scott Steven's c-NET bbs In-Reply-To: <20050706202849.2455b3d6.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050706202849.2455b3d6.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Scott, if you have a copy of c-NET BBS still in existence, or know of where I can get a copy of it to put on line, I would love to put up a telnet-based BBS running it. I can assign an IP address to a serial port and simply use a TTL -> RS232 level shifting circuit to hook up a 1200- baud emulated modem. Then, we've got ourselves a C-net bbs. Anyone ? >Yes, but C-Net is probably dead. C-Net was a popular Commodore-based >BBS package. I was active on a few boards that ran it years back- >C64 machine with two (or three) 1541 drives and a 300 baud modem. >(sorry for the topic drift) From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jul 6 22:28:24 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:28:24 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CCA158.7000300@jbrain.com> plato computer wrote: >I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment that >I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, replacing some >broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx "Portable"; is there >anyone on here who has a particular fondness for commodore equipment? > > > To be blunt, there is much fondness here for CBM stuff. However, of all the machines, the SX holds a special place in my heart. I remember them for sale at K-Mart when I was 12-13 or so, but there was no way I could pay $595.00 for one. So, I drooled over it and left the store each time without it. Many years later, after I had mostly resigned myself to never owning one, two people offered me free units. One was in prisine condition, the other in good condition. Both ran (and run). That was in '95 or so. Last year, I eBayed (yes, the evil one) 2 more (one working in good condition for $50 and another not working for $25). The last one needed only a PLA. So, I'm hoarding them, I guess. They make great demo machines for EXPOs, and there are cool to boot. The best two are considered my museum pieces, while the other 2 go to shows. I even took a SX-64 with me on a business trip to work on some C-64 code last Fall. The bellhop gave some strange looks. I've got a spare keyboard missuing some keys here, so if someone needs keyboard parts for an SX, let me know. Oh, and anyone have a line on a user manual and the cute SX-64 bag? I would love to get one of each. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From computer at officereach.net Wed Jul 6 22:49:15 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:49:15 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: <42CCA158.7000300@jbrain.com> References: <42CCA158.7000300@jbrain.com> Message-ID: jim if you want a computer (mostly together, missing some keys), I would be happy to send you the one that I have designated as "parts"... that way, I bet you can have two complete sx64's. I think that commodore went wrong in three areas. 1. they never put a standart rs232 port on their stuff. sure you could use 1488's , but that was not the point. There was no real rs232. 2. The disk drives were basically computers to themselves; 3. 40 columns just ain't cool. 80 is the way to go. So..... what else? Is Anyone here who was integrally involved in the design of the machine? -----Original Message----- From: Jim Brain To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:28:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? > plato computer wrote: > > >I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment > that > >I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, replacing some > >broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx "Portable"; is > there > >anyone on here who has a particular fondness for commodore equipment? > > > > > > > To be blunt, there is much fondness here for CBM stuff. However, of > all > the machines, the SX holds a special place in my heart. I remember > them > for sale at K-Mart when I was 12-13 or so, but there was no way I could > pay $595.00 for one. So, I drooled over it and left the store each > time > without it. > > Many years later, after I had mostly resigned myself to never owning > one, two people offered me free units. One was in prisine condition, > the other in good condition. Both ran (and run). That was in '95 or > so. > > Last year, I eBayed (yes, the evil one) 2 more (one working in good > condition for $50 and another not working for $25). The last one > needed > only a PLA. > > So, I'm hoarding them, I guess. They make great demo machines for > EXPOs, and there are cool to boot. The best two are considered my > museum pieces, while the other 2 go to shows. > > I even took a SX-64 with me on a business trip to work on some C-64 > code > last Fall. The bellhop gave some strange looks. > > I've got a spare keyboard missuing some keys here, so if someone needs > keyboard parts for an SX, let me know. > > Oh, and anyone have a line on a user manual and the cute SX-64 bag? I > would love to get one of each. > > Jim > > -- > Jim Brain, Brain Innovations > brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com > Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! > From computer at officereach.net Wed Jul 6 22:51:58 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:51:58 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: References: <42CCA158.7000300@jbrain.com> Message-ID: jim, just simply pay for the shipping and I'll send you the "99% complete sx64" ... -----Original Message----- From: "plato computer" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , "Jim Brain" Cc: Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:49:15 -0700 Subject: Re: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? > jim if you want a computer (mostly together, missing some keys), I > would > be happy to send you the one that I have designated as "parts"... that > way, I bet you can have two complete sx64's. > > I think that commodore went wrong in three areas. > > 1. they never put a standart rs232 port on their stuff. sure you could > use 1488's , but that was not the point. There was no real rs232. > > 2. The disk drives were basically computers to themselves; > > 3. 40 columns just ain't cool. 80 is the way to go. > > So..... what else? Is Anyone here who was integrally involved in the > design of the machine? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Brain > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:28:24 -0500 > Subject: Re: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? > > > plato computer wrote: > > > > >I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment > > that > > >I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, replacing > some > > >broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx "Portable"; is > > there > > >anyone on here who has a particular fondness for commodore > equipment? > > > > > > > > > > > To be blunt, there is much fondness here for CBM stuff. However, of > > all > > the machines, the SX holds a special place in my heart. I remember > > them > > for sale at K-Mart when I was 12-13 or so, but there was no way I > could > > pay $595.00 for one. So, I drooled over it and left the store each > > time > > without it. > > > > Many years later, after I had mostly resigned myself to never owning > > one, two people offered me free units. One was in prisine condition, > > the other in good condition. Both ran (and run). That was in '95 or > > so. > > > > Last year, I eBayed (yes, the evil one) 2 more (one working in good > > condition for $50 and another not working for $25). The last one > > needed > > only a PLA. > > > > So, I'm hoarding them, I guess. They make great demo machines for > > EXPOs, and there are cool to boot. The best two are considered my > > museum pieces, while the other 2 go to shows. > > > > I even took a SX-64 with me on a business trip to work on some C-64 > > code > > last Fall. The bellhop gave some strange looks. > > > > I've got a spare keyboard missuing some keys here, so if someone > needs > > keyboard parts for an SX, let me know. > > > > Oh, and anyone have a line on a user manual and the cute SX-64 bag? > I > > would love to get one of each. > > > > Jim > > > > -- > > Jim Brain, Brain Innovations > > brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com > > Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! > > > > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Jul 6 22:44:23 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:44:23 -0700 Subject: source of blank 82S123s? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507062044230992.06492F0C@192.168.42.129> Very hard to find in anything less than large (and very expensive) quantities. It may not be original equipment, but you could probably cobble up an adapter to let a UV-EPROM replace the OTP PROM device. Happy hunting. *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 06-Jul-05 at 14:58 Ethan Dicks wrote: >I'm in search of a couple of blank 82S123s for my recently-aquired >SuperElf boards. Who still carries such things? > >Googling on 'blank 82s123' did not turn up anything promising. > >Thanks, > >-ethan -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jul 6 22:55:16 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:55:16 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: References: <42CCA158.7000300@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <42CCA7A4.10101@jbrain.com> >1. they never put a standart rs232 port on their stuff. sure you could >use 1488's , but that was not the point. There was no real rs232. > > They did later with the B series machines and the Plus/4, but it was too late by then. >2. The disk drives were basically computers to themselves; > > I dunno. I think the drive was fine with it's own CPU. What was a bear was the slow IEC protocol. Search for Commodore Trivia and IEC to find Jim Butterfield's information on why the IEC protocol ended up so slow. If you can;t find it, let me know, and I will post it here. It's a good read. >3. 40 columns just ain't cool. 80 is the way to go. > > Again, fixed with the B series and the C128, but again, too late. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 6 23:00:29 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706201014.3e790a6a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Believe me, a day will probably come when people who are in their > twenties now will wax nostalgic on that old Leading Edge or Packard Bell > clone they started out on as a little kid, and want one just like it. > And most of them will have been melted down. I've got each in my collection ;) I'm not saying they're rare or anything, but I've hardly seen any 286 or 386 computers come through my warehouse in the past few months. The trickle has definitely slowed down. If you think you might have a need for a 286 or 386 in the future, you should probably be wanting to find a nice representative system right around now. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 6 23:09:11 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: <42CCA158.7000300@jbrain.com> from Jim Brain at "Jul 6, 5 10:28:24 pm" Message-ID: <200507070409.VAA16226@floodgap.com> > Oh, and anyone have a line on a user manual and the cute SX-64 bag? I > would love to get one of each. I've got a complete kit with the original cable, bag and manual, along with the "blue hubs" on the handles. That's pretty much the only way I'll buy them now, and it took me buying three of them in various states of completeness to cobble together a fully original set of equipment. However, I will buy another complete SX-64 kit if I find one. I *am* looking for another SX keyboard (cable nice, but I really want the keyboard -- I can build the cable if needed), so if anyone (the original poster?) is getting rid of one, let me know. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- No good deed goes unpunished. -- Clare Boothe Luce ------------------------- From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 6 23:02:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706201713.363f8c94.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Even where IBM cards of that era used 'commodity' components, they were > usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere mortal to > figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor networks and > resistors/capacitors (except those few that have color-code bands.) DEC used standard components. Hmm, another example of the more open nature of DEC vs. IBM? ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 6 23:05:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > How about an IBM 650? Are there people out there with them still > > operable? > > There are at least two in private hands. One showed up right around me, > but I did not get it. Being in IBM land, I have to think there are more > great machines sitting just within my reach. For certain. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jul 6 23:56:08 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:56:08 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: Message-ID: <00bc01c582b0$307ef9d0$5b7da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 12:00 AM Subject: Re: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 > On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > Believe me, a day will probably come when people who are in their > > twenties now will wax nostalgic on that old Leading Edge or Packard Bell > > clone they started out on as a little kid, and want one just like it. > > And most of them will have been melted down. > > I've got each in my collection ;) > > I'm not saying they're rare or anything, but I've hardly seen any 286 or > 386 computers come through my warehouse in the past few months. The > trickle has definitely slowed down. If you think you might have a need > for a 286 or 386 in the future, you should probably be wanting to find a > nice representative system right around now. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] Leading Edge and Packard Bells always sucked (my first PC was a new 286 Packard Bell). I did always want a 386 Gateway desktop case, those looked nice. The high end Northgates and Everex machines looked nice (could be 486 era). > From news at computercollector.com Thu Jul 7 00:07:21 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 01:07:21 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <00bc01c582b0$307ef9d0$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: <200507070512.j675Cu1W080779@keith.ezwind.net> So, what from today will be collectible in 2015 or 2020? I suppose anything that's not a beige box: iMac, Internet appliances, smartphones, tablets, early NAS boxes, etc.... I can't think of much on the server side... perhaps the last models from companies that died or were acquired! > > I'm not saying they're rare or anything, but I've hardly seen any 286 or > 386 computers come through my warehouse in the past few months. The > trickle has definitely slowed down. If you think you might have a need > for a 286 or 386 in the future, you should probably be wanting to find a > nice representative system right around now. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail From tomj at wps.com Thu Jul 7 00:33:32 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 22:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050706223008.P13138@localhost> >> Well, I finally got around to attempting to re-spool this stupidly >> designed tape. On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > By driving the outside of the tape spools at a constant speed > (that's what the belt and drive puck do), rather than turning the spools > themselves by their axles, that's exactly what you get. I agree with Tony. It's a brilliant design in fact. If the belts are dying at 1 to 5 years, OK, blame the manufacturer. But if we're talking about 10+ year old tapes, please -- replace them with new ones (tapes have a limited life) or accept that they are vintage and stop whining. You're using them well past their design life. From tomj at wps.com Thu Jul 7 00:36:18 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 22:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LGP30 pictures In-Reply-To: <53df2bd8b679a8e4065639752f65fe57@spies.com> References: <53df2bd8b679a8e4065639752f65fe57@spies.com> Message-ID: <20050706223538.B13138@localhost> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > I just put the pics from the auction at > www.bitsavers.org/pdf/generalPrecision/LGP30pics Good pix! The drum was refurbed in 1967!!! Lucky bastard. I'm glad that John finally got a complete '30! From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 7 00:53:17 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:53:17 -0700 Subject: New Finds Thanks to Networking Message-ID: <42CCC34D.52535449@rain.org> I got a call tonight and picked up an Eagle IIe computer, Lisa 2 (3 1/2" drive), Vic 20, Bunker Ramo micro/mini with the possibility of picking up a couple of Polymorphic Toasters (the orange S-100 machine.) I will be picking up two more Bunker Ramo computers on Monday. These Bunker Ramo computers were apparently used in a brokerage house and the possibility exists that he has the docs for them. I don't have a model number right now, but is anyone familiar with Bunker-Ramo and the computers they made? From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Thu Jul 7 01:37:05 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 07:37:05 +0100 Subject: IBM 650 (was WOW!!!! ...) In-Reply-To: <20050706193903.65dfeb27.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20050706193903.65dfeb27.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1120718225.24097.6.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 19:39 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > How about an IBM 650? Are there people out there with them still > operable? > > I still have one loose-leaf binder for the 650. I think the 'first electronic computer in New Zealand' ( http://www.ibm.com/ibm/nz/ ) still exists in NZ. I am pretty sure that this was operating at Motat ( http://www.motat.org.nz ) in the '70s but was subsequently reclaimed by IBM. I might be totally wrong on this - it's on my list of things to check up on next time I'm in NZ. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 06:22:34 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:22:34 +0000 Subject: IBM 650 (was WOW!!!! ...) In-Reply-To: <1120718225.24097.6.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20050706193903.65dfeb27.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1120718225.24097.6.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <1120735354.15438.8.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 07:37 +0100, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 19:39 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > > How about an IBM 650? Are there people out there with them still > > operable? > > > > I still have one loose-leaf binder for the 650. > > I think the 'first electronic computer in New Zealand' > ( http://www.ibm.com/ibm/nz/ ) still exists in NZ. I am pretty sure > that this was operating at Motat ( http://www.motat.org.nz ) in the '70s > but was subsequently reclaimed by IBM. I might be totally wrong on this > - it's on my list of things to check up on next time I'm in NZ. It certainly wasn't on public display at MOTAT when I last went there a couple of years ago, and that'd be the most likely place for it if it was viewable by the public. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 06:28:34 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:28:34 +0000 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: <200507070409.VAA16226@floodgap.com> References: <200507070409.VAA16226@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1120735714.15420.15.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 21:09 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Oh, and anyone have a line on a user manual and the cute SX-64 bag? I > > would love to get one of each. > > I've got a complete kit with the original cable, bag and manual, along with > the "blue hubs" on the handles. OK, what's the deal with the blue hubs? Both our working and spares SX- 64 have them; were they prone to falling off, or only some were made with them or something? Someone dropped our two off to us one day having found them on the tip. (both with half the ICs dead, one with an analogue display fault, one with a PSU fault, and only one keyboard cable between the pair - took me a fair bit of messing around to make a nice usable machine!) > I *am* looking for another SX keyboard That's my big gripe about them; the keyboard feels permanently on the verge of breaking. I wish they'd made the thing slightly bulkier/heavier and not quite so flimsy. cheers Jules From bqt at Update.UU.SE Thu Jul 7 07:14:42 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:14:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507070407.j6746idd038910@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507070407.j6746idd038910@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 William Donzelli wrote: > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > Even where IBM cards of that era used 'commodity' components, they were > > usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere mortal to > > figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor networks and > > resistors/capacitors (except those few that have color-code bands.) > > Unless you get the cross reference... > > For the pre-1978 (or so) machines, you can pretty much debug down to the > chip level. With the right Blue Binders, pretty much every last part is > detailed to a silly extent. WAY more detailed than DEC docs. I don't see how anything could be more documented than having the complete engineering drawings of the whole machine. And that's what you normally got on old DEC machines. That's what I have of the PDP-11/70. Full drawings of every curcuit in the machine. And then I have all the technical manuals for all subsystems that document things in a more text-like manner as well. But as usual: when in doubt, the drawings are the definitive authority. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 7 07:18:03 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 05:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: <1120735714.15420.15.camel@weka.localdomain> from Jules Richardson at "Jul 7, 5 11:28:34 am" Message-ID: <200507071218.FAA13028@floodgap.com> > > > Oh, and anyone have a line on a user manual and the cute SX-64 bag? I > > > would love to get one of each. > > > > I've got a complete kit with the original cable, bag and manual, along with > > the "blue hubs" on the handles. > > OK, what's the deal with the blue hubs? Both our working and spares SX- > 64 have them; were they prone to falling off, or only some were made > with them or something? The glue on the hubs is weak and comes off easily. Also, people pry off the hubs to fix the handle, find out that they were only attached with glue, decide not to bother in case the handle needs to get fixed again, and then lose the hubs. Of the three I've bought and the probably hundred-odd I've run into, maybe 20% still have the hubs on. I just need another keyboard, is all. SX #3 totally lacks one. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Flat text is just *never* what you want. -- stephen p spackman ------------- From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jul 7 07:43:08 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:43:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507070512.j675Cu1W080779@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > I suppose anything that's not a beige box: iMac, Internet appliances, > smartphones, tablets, early NAS boxes, etc.... I can't think of much on the > server side... perhaps the last models from companies that died or were > acquired! I think Suns will always be collectable, as they are now. There are some weird things they have made over the years that people seek. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Jul 7 07:49:03 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (birs23 at zeelandnet.nl) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:49:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Wanted : IBM PS/2 Model 50 or 80 In-Reply-To: References: <200507070512.j675Cu1W080779@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <53487.127.0.0.1.1120740543.squirrel@127.0.0.1> I am looking for an IBM PS/2 Model 50 or 80 Has to be cheap and preferably in the Netherlands. Anybody got a working one that they dont want anymore ? Stefan. From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jul 7 07:53:47 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't see how anything could be more documented than having the complete > engineering drawings of the whole machine. And that's what you normally > got on old DEC machines. > That's what I have of the PDP-11/70. Full drawings of every curcuit in the > machine. And then I have all the technical manuals for all subsystems that > document things in a more text-like manner as well. With IBM stuff, you get multiple drawings of every circuit of the machine. The basics are the ALDs (Automated Logic Drawings) - these are the printer generated, hard to read things that are the most detailed (all gates, all connections, all pins labelled). Then, to make thing easy, IBM had more traditional drawings, using nice art - still IBM specific, but much easier to read. Then there are (many) flow charts, timing diagrams, sometimes scope shots, and of course, warnings on where not to stick your tie. By volume, I would say IBM docs are two to three times larger than DECs. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From bill at timeguy.com Thu Jul 7 08:24:52 2005 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:24:52 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 switch style? In-Reply-To: <200507070406.j6746idY038910@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507070406.j6746idY038910@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050707132452.GB82724@outpost.timeguy.com> I recently bought an Altair 680 case on eBay, and am planning on trying to build some kind of 6800-based board to go in it. I'd like the front panel to be authentic-looking, and have been digging through my old Byte magazines and some web sites to try to figure out the switches they used. I've seen mostly bat-handled mini-toggles, but a few pictures have shown flattened bat-handles. I would also need to know the switch configuration (i.e. double-throw, single-throw, momentary, etc.) for the various switches. It seems like there's a lot less info around on the 680 than there is on the 8800, although I did find a pretty good article about the "new" Altair 680 in one of my "Best of Byte" volumes. Can anybody supply some switch info? Dimensions would be good; manufacturer and part number might be better. I wasn't really planning on building a 680, but I did my usual semi-annual search of eBay for the keyword "Altair" and there was this pretty (but empty) 680 case, and in a classic illustration of Pavlovian response, I clicked "bid"... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 08:31:30 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:31:30 +0000 Subject: FAQ? Message-ID: <1120743090.15438.82.camel@weka.localdomain> Where's the online FAQ that contains useful contributions by individuals? I've gone and lost the address and it doesn't seem to be reachable via www.classiccmp.org :-( ta J. From news at computercollector.com Thu Jul 7 08:41:03 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:41:03 -0400 Subject: FAQ? In-Reply-To: <1120743090.15438.82.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200507071346.j67DkXsa085979@keith.ezwind.net> http://www.classiccmp.org/kb/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 9:32 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: FAQ? Where's the online FAQ that contains useful contributions by individuals? I've gone and lost the address and it doesn't seem to be reachable via www.classiccmp.org :-( ta J. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jul 7 08:49:05 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:49:05 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <17101.13009.299465.672486@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some big machines and >> IBM made some small ones, and the DEC boxes still seem to get more >> attention from collectors. I think that the relative availability >> of DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes Tony> I suspect is is partly the doucmentation. DEC machines of this Tony> period tended to come with schematics rather than board-swapper Tony> guides (which is what the IBM service manuals I've seen Tony> were). There are thus plenty of PDP8, PDP11, etc shematics Tony> around. Tony> And IBM used custom parts a lot earlier than DEC. I've not seen Tony> a 370, but I'd be suprised if it was all off-the-shelf Tony> components. Unibus PDP11s PDP8s, etc tended to be. Judging by the mainframes section of the IBM history pages (http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/index.html) custom components arrived with the 360. That may also when schematics stopped appearing, which makes sense. On the other hand, I know we had schematics for our college 1620. Very hard to read schematics since they were printed on a line printer (an early version of "ASCII graphics"), but they were there nevertheless. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jul 7 08:56:13 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:56:13 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: <20050706201713.363f8c94.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <17101.13437.17742.668895@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: >> Even where IBM cards of that era used 'commodity' components, they >> were usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere >> mortal to figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor >> networks and resistors/capacitors (except those few that have >> color-code bands.) Vintage> DEC used standard components. Sort of -- if you ignore the bus transceivers. And of course the ASICs starting around 1980 or so. paul From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jul 7 09:04:21 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:04:21 -0400 Subject: Xerox 6085's In-Reply-To: <17101.13009.299465.672486@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> <17101.13009.299465.672486@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42CD3665.6060402@atarimuseum.com> I recently acquired a pair of 6085's, 1 keyboard/mouse. I have spoken with the guys over at Digibarn and they've been very helpful with info. The systems don't have monitors so getting them tested, and running again is at a standstill. I am looking for 1 or more monitors, any manuals and/or documents on the 6085's, Mesa and Viewpoint. If anyone has any spare boards, keyboards, basically anything that they may be interested in selling/trading, please let me know. I'm also still looking for a Star8010 as well. Thanks, Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 7/6/2005 From news at computercollector.com Thu Jul 7 09:06:58 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:06:58 -0400 Subject: Almost on-topic: "legacy" computing Message-ID: <200507071412.j67ECNCp086671@keith.ezwind.net> Feature article in Computerworld magazine. http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/mainframes/story/0,1080 1,102863,00.html ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 750 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jul 7 09:06:07 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:06:07 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: <200507070512.j675Cu1W080779@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <17101.14031.998115.374194@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> I suppose anything that's not a beige box: iMac, Internet >> appliances, smartphones, tablets, early NAS boxes, etc.... I can't >> think of much on the server side... perhaps the last models from >> companies that died or were acquired! William> I think Suns will always be collectable, as they are William> now. There are some weird things they have made over the William> years that people seek. One fun thing you could do with the right Sun guts is building a replica of the EFF DES cracker. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 09:29:25 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:29:25 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <20050706201014.3e790a6a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 7/6/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'm not saying they're rare or anything, but I've hardly seen any 286 or > 386 computers come through my warehouse in the past few months. The > trickle has definitely slowed down. If you think you might have a need > for a 286 or 386 in the future, you should probably be wanting to find a > nice representative system right around now. I was just using my Compaq SLT/286 the other night... -ethan From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 08:28:39 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:28:39 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <20050706223008.P13138@localhost> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707092839.00989430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:33 PM 7/6/05 -0700, you wrote: >>> Well, I finally got around to attempting to re-spool this stupidly >>> designed tape. > >On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > >> By driving the outside of the tape spools at a constant speed >> (that's what the belt and drive puck do), rather than turning the spools >> themselves by their axles, that's exactly what you get. > >I agree with Tony. It's a brilliant design in fact. > >If the belts are dying at 1 to 5 years, OK, blame the >manufacturer. But if we're talking about 10+ year old tapes, >please -- replace them with new ones (tapes have a limited life) >or accept that they are vintage and stop whining. You're using >them well past their design life. I agreee but the problem is that a lot of us would like to recover the original HP software from the tapes since a lot of it virtually never appeared on anything but the tapes. In addition, the programs on tape could be "protected" and could not be copied. I know companies that run their entire operation off of such commercailly produced protected tapes and are willing to pay ANYTHING to keep them working since a failed tape will put them out of business. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 08:33:23 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:33:23 -0400 Subject: source of blank 82S123s? In-Reply-To: <200507062044230992.06492F0C@192.168.42.129> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707093323.00a17430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:44 PM 7/6/05 -0700, you wrote: > Very hard to find in anything less than large (and very expensive) quantities. > > It may not be original equipment, but you could probably cobble up an adapter to let a UV-EPROM replace the OTP PROM device. Er, no. EPROMs won't work. These are the same Bi-Polar PROMs used in the HP 1000s and I thought of trying to use EPROMS too but EPROMS are too large and much too slow and have an entirely different pinout. I'm also finding that the PDP-8s use the same (or VERY similar) BiPolar PROMs. Perhaps we should consider a group purchase of a batch of blank BiPolar PROMS? Joe > > Happy hunting. > >*********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > >On 06-Jul-05 at 14:58 Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>I'm in search of a couple of blank 82S123s for my recently-aquired >>SuperElf boards. Who still carries such things? >> >>Googling on 'blank 82s123' did not turn up anything promising. >> >>Thanks, >> >>-ethan > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, >Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com >kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m >"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 08:39:55 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:39:55 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707093955.00799100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:10 AM 7/7/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Well, I finally got around to attempting to re-spool this stupidly >> designed tape. > >It's actually avery ingenious design (it's the same design, basically, as >QIC tape cartridges). Remember you want a constant tape speed past the >head. By driving the outside of the tape spools at a constant speed >(that's what the belt and drive puck do), rather than turning the spools >themselves by their axles, that's exactly what you get. It avoids the >capstan, pinch roller, slipping clutches, etc, used in audio tape and >cassette recorders. The really ingenous part is that the belt attempts to rotate the take up spool about 10% faster then the other spool. That's what tightens up the tape if it ever gets slack. > >> >> Your description sounds like a different tape than what I was dealing >> with. The tape did not come off of either spool but was instead attached >> onto both spools. > >THere were several designs, sure... > >> >> At any rate, the stupid tensioning belt (whatever its called) broke on me. >> Oh well, fuck that tape. I'll try to read it anyway (is the tensioning >> belt necessary?) I also noticed numerous spots on the the tape where the > >Of course the belt is necessary. It's how the tape is driven. You can >borrow one from another tape cartridge. Good luck! I could never replace a belt and make it work :=/ > >> oxide had flaked off, so any re-attempt may well be futile. Whoever > >Obviously you've lost data where that oxide is missing. You'll also have >problems becuase these drives use optincal BOT/EOT detection (there's a >small hole in the tape, a mirror as part of the cartridge housing, and a >bulb/photodetector in the drive). The system will think it's got to the >end of the tape if it finds a clear spot. > >> designed these tapes is a moron. I can't imagine how impossibly expensive >> it must've been to manufacture them. > >See above. Tell you what, you see if you can come up with a better design. Better yes, cheaper - no. > >> >> I hate computers. > >Feel free to send me all your collection. Sellam would need a container ship to move all of his collection! He should ship it all here to Florida and avoid that nasty Atlantic crossing :-) Joe > >-tony > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 09:25:16 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:25:16 -0400 Subject: Time to change the Subject Line! Re: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: <754177864d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <1120502180.10023.68.camel@weka.localdomain> <42C96493.1C70AEA5@rain.org> <1120502180.10023.68.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707102516.00799360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:20 AM 7/7/05 +0100, you wrote: >In message <1120502180.10023.68.camel at weka.localdomain> > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Most of the stuff I get (albeit for the museum, not personally) comes >> from local usenet groups, > >Tried that one - most of the uk.leeds.*.forsale type NGs seem to be full of >asshat spammers and such. Oh how I miss my spam-filtered cis-dfn newsfeed :( You're right. The asshole SPAMMERS have virtually kiiled the news groups! But I've had some luck getting items for specific systems by posting on news-groups. I got a lot of offers for systems, manuals, etc when I posted on the Z-100 news groups. Blanket request for "old computers" or Ebay-able Altairs are meet with distain but if you show a real interest in a particular system you'll usually find someone willing to help or donate items. The other thing that helps is to set up a website and ask for unwanted systems on it. Again, blanket request for everything old are generaly ignored but if you show a strong interest in something and ask for specific systems you'll get offers. I got three of my Intel MDSs that way. Also I offer to BUY the things that I'm interested and didn't pretend to be museum and ask for the stuff for free. I'm amazed at the gall that some people display when they ask for valuable systems and not only want me to give it to them but also expect me to pay to ship it to them!!! A good example is the guy in Hawaii that bugged me for months wanting me to GIVE him my IBM 5100 and pay the shipping (by air!) from Florida to Hawaii! > >> or the university - it's at the stage now > >I think I mentioned the "destroy everything" attitude the local universities >and colleges share. Recycling is a big thing here in the US. You should push that aspect to the businesses and universities. But you need to do it on large batches and not just on the one or two computers that you may want. My buddy that owns the surplus store in Melbourne gets a LOT of his stuff for free from companies and individuals that want to see the stuff recycled instead of filling up landfills. He's just gotten a deal to get TONS of computers from KSC for FREE for exactly that reason. FWIW Most of the stuff that he gets is modernish PC but I've gotten a LOT of goodies from him. He's the one that turned me onto the PDP-8 stuff that Thom had. He's also the one that I got the 20 or so Intel 830s with bubble memory from. And just last Tuesday I found a boxfull of DEC cards and a pile of Cromemco S-100 cards in his board scrap. I wasn't there to save the Cromemco but the cards are certainly worth getting. The important thing to keep in mind about places like his is that they don't keep the stuff around any longer than possible. It's common for stuff to come off the delivery trucks and go directly to tear down. Particularly the OLD stuff (the kind of stuff that we want!) So you have to check them FREQUENTLY. When it gets really busy (like it has been for the last three weeks) I go there everyday if at all possible. Even then things come in and get torn down before I find them! BTW this brings up an important point. I've gone out with a lot of different computer hunters and I was shocked to find out that most of you fail to look through the baskets of cables and old boards. I ALWAYS find lots of goodies in them! For example, I went with Gary Hildebrand to computer recycling place in Topeka Kansas and he had just been asking me for some 1Mb ICs for the Commodore Amiga computers. When we got the the recycler's we looked through all the computers (I found a black B&H Apple), then I went and looked through their board scrap and found not just the ICs that he wanted but they were also on original Amiga boards! Gary was shocked! He said that he'd been to this same place many times before but never thought to look in the board scrap! Besides computer cables, cable scrap almost always includes hings like logic analyzer pods and oscilloscope probes that make good trading material. > >> where the local population seem to know to chuck things this way. I've >> only recently joined the local freecycle group, so I'm not sure how good >> that'll be in terms of stuff yet. > >I'm on the Leeds freecycle group - haven't seen anything interesting yet. > >> Landfill / scrapyards in the UK don't seem to be anything like their US >> counterparts according to what I've seen on this list - there just >> aren't items there for the taking. In most places in the US you are NOT allowed to hunt for anything in the landfills and will be arrested if you take anything out. Yes they are VERY strict! The key to sucessful computer hunting is to find the companies that buy or are given old electronics for recycling (not the get-rich-quick 3rd party resellers, although you can OCCASIONALLY get a good deal from them). The recyclers tear the stuff down for the aluminium and other materials and they only get pennies per pound for scrap so they're frequently willing to sell the intact stuff for a reasonable price as long as it doesn't contain any **GOLD**. They get real protective over things like the old HP and Tektronics that contain very much visible gold or heavy aluminium. Joe > >I've noticed that too :-/ > >> There is stuff out there anyway - you just need to give people a prod >> every once in a while and get yourself noticed as someone who can give >> this stuff a home. > >Time to put something of a virtual classiccmp museum on my website then, I >guess. > >Later. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >... Even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn now and again. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 09:38:44 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:38:44 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <17101.13437.17742.668895@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20050706201713.363f8c94.chenmel@earthlink.net> <17101.13437.17742.668895@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 7/7/05, Paul Koning wrote: > Vintage> DEC used standard components. > > Sort of -- if you ignore the bus transceivers. Some were proprietary DEC (DC003, DC004, DC005, DC013...), but some were somewhat standard (Nat'l Semi 8640, 8641...) Unfortunately, even some of the "standard" chips that they used (7438, 7401?) were graded for leakage current (not that someone couldn't do it now, but it adds to the complexity and expense). Of course, one _can_ take risks and violate the letter of the bus specs and try some other sort of part, and it will probably work for a small system, but it also has a chance of not working in the larger multi-backplane kinds of systems. -ethan From mmaginnis at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 09:48:42 2005 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Michael Maginnis) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:48:42 -0600 Subject: Altair 8800 Layout In-Reply-To: <42CB0CF4.7000605@kallisti.de> References: <42CB0CF4.7000605@kallisti.de> Message-ID: On 7/5/05, Alex Bihlmaier wrote: > Hi! > > > > I am searching for the layout of an old Altair 8800 home computer. > A friend of mine is reading Steven Levys "Hackers" and is fascinated > about the Altair 880 homebrew computer. > > I searched the net with google about this computer but i cannot find > sth. useful. > > > Anyone here with infos about the Altair 8800? > > > grtx from germany, > thalunil > A googe search for "altair 8800" turned up more than 60,000 hits... - Mike From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 10:13:17 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:13:17 -0500 Subject: source of blank 82S123s? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050707093323.00a17430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200507062044230992.06492F0C@192.168.42.129> <3.0.6.32.20050707093323.00a17430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 7/7/05, Joe R. wrote: > > It may not be original equipment, but you could probably cobble up an > adapter to let a UV-EPROM replace the OTP PROM device. > > Er, no. EPROMs won't work. These are the same Bi-Polar PROMs used in the > HP 1000s and I thought of trying to use EPROMS too but EPROMS are too large > and much too slow and have an entirely different pinout. I'm also finding > that the PDP-8s use the same (or VERY similar) BiPolar PROMs. In _this_ case, an EPROM would work fine - a 1.7MHz 1802 will in no way flake out if an EPROM appears at address $0000 rather than a bi-polar PROM. These designs used 82S123s because a) in 1977, 1702As were somewhat expensive, b) 82S123s use less board real estate, c) 32 bytes is enough for an 1802 ROM Monitor program, etc. What I'd thought of making, though, since it's not something that I'm going to be doing massive software development on, is a _GAL_ replacement - perhaps an 8-bit tri-state buffer and a 16V8 with the various bits (256) encoded as logic equations. Yes, an EPROM would work, but I happen to have a tub of GALs, and the daughter card wouldn't be any larger. It's the trick Commodore used with AUTOCONFIG on the Amiga - a PAL to simulate a 4-bit ROM that held the manufacturer/device codes requested of each board at power-on. I know it would be tedious, but it should work. > Perhaps we should consider a group purchase of a batch of blank BiPolar > PROMS? Perhaps. I myself wouldn't need more than about 10 82S123s, and a similar number of whatever PROMs are on the OMNIBUS KM8AA (if I ever wanted to write a custom bootstrap for some as-yet-unbuilt OMNIBUS SCSI card). Other than that, I'm not a big consumer of PROMs. The last time I burned one was probably 1985. -ethan From bqt at Update.UU.SE Thu Jul 7 10:24:24 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:24:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DEC documentation In-Reply-To: <200507071440.j67EdZQr045240@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507071440.j67EdZQr045240@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 William Donzelli wrote: > > I don't see how anything could be more documented than having the complete > > engineering drawings of the whole machine. And that's what you normally > > got on old DEC machines. > > That's what I have of the PDP-11/70. Full drawings of every curcuit in the > > machine. And then I have all the technical manuals for all subsystems that > > document things in a more text-like manner as well. > > With IBM stuff, you get multiple drawings of every circuit of the machine. > The basics are the ALDs (Automated Logic Drawings) - these are the printer > generated, hard to read things that are the most detailed (all gates, all > connections, all pins labelled). Then, to make thing easy, IBM had more > traditional drawings, using nice art - still IBM specific, but much easier > to read. Then there are (many) flow charts, timing diagrams, sometimes > scope shots, and of course, warnings on where not to stick your tie. Hmm. I don't have any printer generated drawings, true. Not sure I'd want to. The normal drawings are pretty big, and lots of paper. They contain every wrire, every pin, and every connection. Also photographic layouts of PCBs. There are also flow charts and timing diagrams in there. In the service and maintenance manuals you have more descriptions, including scope shots and other kind of service information. Lots of trobule shooting information as well. So I still can't see what more documentation there could exist. But I admit that I don't have any experience of IBM hardware. I just can't imagine what more information there could be than what I have. And that was what was delivered with the machine. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 10:29:03 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:29:03 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: References: <42CCA158.7000300@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 7/6/05, plato computer wrote: > I think that commodore went wrong in three areas. > > 1. they never put a standart rs232 port on their stuff. sure you could > use 1488's , but that was not the point. There was no real rs232. They sold a cartridge for a reasonable amount ($30? $40?) that hung on the userport fingers that had reasonable level shifters. I used it extensively for machine-to-machine transfers. > 2. The disk drives were basically computers to themselves; That made things somewhat expensive, but it also made them standard. I don't know why they chose to go that route with the 2040 dual disk drives, but once they got on that train, they stayed with it all the way to the end. I don't see how they went "wrong" with this, unless you mean that it priced the drives out of most people's hands. This was certainly the case for the PET, where a dual disk drive cost over twice what a 32K computer cost. My first floppy drive was a 1540 - free to me (through my job), but it was $595 on the street, same as a C-64 when it first came out. Now what _was_ a mistake was how slow the serial drives were. True IEEE-488 wasn't a speed demon, but it wasn't awful - 8-bit parallel transfers about as fast as a 1MHz CPU can make them - hard to do better without fast DMA hardware. The problem came about through a series of management decisions (orders not to be held hostage to a cable vendor) and technical problems (the 6522 VIA was supposed to do the serial/parallel conversion but there were problems with the chip), but the end result was one of the slowest mass-storage peripherals on record. With the right chips, though, it would have worked much better. > 3. 40 columns just ain't cool. 80 is the way to go. In the case of the C-64, 40 columns makes perfect sense - it was marketed to be attached to a TV, and a TV can't resolve 80 columns. Even when the Amiga came out, it had a 64 column mode (preferences button) for TV use to compliment the 80 column mode for monitor use. > So..... what else? Is Anyone here who was integrally involved in the > design of the machine? I was not involved with Commodore in any way except as a third-party developer for the C-64 in early 1982 (we had S/N S00002007 (with the "lightpen interrupt bug" in the VIC-II chip) that was traded in on S/N S00002345 that I still have). I have done extensive hacking over the years, though. -ethan From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jul 7 10:43:31 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <17101.13009.299465.672486@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > Judging by the mainframes section of the IBM history pages > (http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/index.html) custom components > arrived with the 360. That may also when schematics stopped > appearing, which makes sense. For the mainframes, I am not sure when chip level schematics stopped appearing. They were available in the late 1970s, with the 3031 (a TRUELY huge stack of paperwork). S/360s and S/370s had very full maintenance sets, as did S/3s, and pretty much all of the tapes, disks, punches, readers, control units, and so forth. So, no, schematics definitely did not stop appearing at the advent of the S/360. I suspect they went away with the 308x line (which makes sense). I do not think S/1s had full chip level schematics, as it was a board swapper family, but the internals were very open. That was the point of the family - finally IBM agreed (and encouraged) 3rd party support. They actually managed to get some, as well (CDC under the Cambex name, for example) before the line died. The smaller machines (S/36 and such) were board swappers, I think. I have never seen full maintenance docs on them. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 10:48:36 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:48:36 +0000 Subject: FAQ? In-Reply-To: <200507071346.j67DkXsa085979@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507071346.j67DkXsa085979@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1120751316.15420.122.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 09:41 -0400, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > http://www.classiccmp.org/kb/ Thanks :) Next question - how do I add comments? Nowhere does it say I need to be logged in, but at the moment I'm getting "submission failed" with no useful error message. Anyone else had any luck? cheers Jules From alanp at snowmoose.com Thu Jul 7 11:02:07 2005 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:02:07 -0700 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507071530.j67FTtLd045794@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507071530.j67FTtLd045794@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42CD51FF.3070409@snowmoose.com> Tom Jennings wrote: >On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Maddox wrote: > >> It's frustrating how little >>of the older non-DEC minicomputer material seems to be >>available. >> >> > >I always figured it was you conspiratorial DEC people, buying up >other-make stuff and destroying it to make a one-DEC-world. > > I knew it was something like that! I have been looking for a Burroughs B1000 machine for maybe seven years. I missed a local one that went into surplus about a year after started collecting. I heard of another one in Ohio that I think a museum got. (The museum queried me to see if I had found one.) Other than that, I haven't heard of any. I have a bunch of Burroughs B20 workstations that I bought a couple of years ago, mostly to save from the scrap heap. Haven't been able to find any more or any software for them. (Someone is Colorado offered to send me some software, then disappeared, so, obviously, it is a conspiracy.) I also collect Sun shoebox systems (IPCs, IPXs, Classics). Since I work for Sun, I will make sure that I have software and documentation on those systems. alan From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 11:02:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507070512.j675Cu1W080779@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > So, what from today will be collectible in 2015 or 2020? > > I suppose anything that's not a beige box: iMac, Internet appliances, > smartphones, tablets, early NAS boxes, etc.... I can't think of much on the > server side... perhaps the last models from companies that died or were > acquired! You forgot: HANDHELDS!!! My, my, for the guy who wrote up the best history on PDAs ever, I'm surprised you left this out ;) Also: digital cameras, all the stupid doodads that long defunct internet bubble companies came up with in the late 1990s, network computers, MP3 players, etc. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 11:03:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Programming Language Inventor or Serial Killer? Message-ID: http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 7 11:15:02 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Programming Language Inventor or Serial Killer? In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Jul 7, 5 09:03:05 am" Message-ID: <200507071615.JAA16098@floodgap.com> > http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/ w00t, I got 7/10! Ha ha! I will slaughter you all, I mean, I did well. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Everyone is entitled to my opinion. -- James Carpenter --------------------- From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 11:18:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Finds Thanks to Networking In-Reply-To: <42CCC34D.52535449@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I got a call tonight and picked up an Eagle IIe computer, Lisa 2 (3 1/2" > drive), Vic 20, Bunker Ramo micro/mini with the possibility of picking > up a couple of Polymorphic Toasters (the orange S-100 machine.) I will > be picking up two more Bunker Ramo computers on Monday. Marvin, What do the Bunker Ramo computers look like? I have a mini that is rather large (about 20" cubed) and heavy. The front panel has pushbuttons instead of switches. An odd beast. > These Bunker Ramo computers were apparently used in a brokerage house > and the possibility exists that he has the docs for them. I don't have a > model number right now, but is anyone familiar with Bunker-Ramo and the > computers they made? I know nothing about it. I got it in a trade years ago. I'm told it was used in a banking environment. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Jul 7 11:28:43 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:28:43 -0700 Subject: cables Message-ID: I have some cables that might be interesting to CCers: Tek ERGO cable (X-term cable with keyboard/mouse plugs on it and 3BNC) DECstation/VAXstation/[?VAX3100?] SCSI -> Cent50 cable IBM PS/2 (narrow) SCSI terminator (micro-ribbon?) Looking for DSSI ((?)VAX 4000 series -> HSD50) cable and HSD50 (microribbon) terminator smallish DG AViiON (Moto 88k) (one of the desktops or smaller tower models) No, I don't expect to trade a cable for an AViiON, but I will do partial trades or just take the free advertising (same goes for the DSSI stuff) Scott Quinn From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Jul 7 11:30:14 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:30:14 -0700 Subject: seeking the California gentleman with the ex-FAA Apollos Message-ID: <52885b511d9ca0082fe211342db53432@valleyimplants.com> I know I've talked with you about DOMAIN/OS, but I've misplaced your e-mail. Scott Quinn From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 11:34:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Time to change the Subject Line! Re: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050707102516.00799360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Joe R. wrote: > BTW this brings up an important point. I've gone out with a lot of > different computer hunters and I was shocked to find out that most of you > fail to look through the baskets of cables and old boards. I ALWAYS find I'm not surprised. It's a lot of work, and most people are lazy. The random crap bins are where I find some of my best stuff. > lots of goodies in them! For example, I went with Gary Hildebrand to > computer recycling place in Topeka Kansas and he had just been asking me > for some 1Mb ICs for the Commodore Amiga computers. When we got the the > recycler's we looked through all the computers (I found a black B&H Apple), > then I went and looked through their board scrap and found not just the ICs > that he wanted but they were also on original Amiga boards! Gary was > shocked! He said that he'd been to this same place many times before but > never thought to look in the board scrap! Besides computer cables, cable > scrap almost always includes hings like logic analyzer pods and > oscilloscope probes that make good trading material. One of these days I'll find that Apple 1 board in the scrap boards bin :) > strict! The key to sucessful computer hunting is to find the companies > that buy or are given old electronics for recycling (not the get-rich-quick Or you can start your own... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 11:46:29 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:46:29 -0500 Subject: Time to change the Subject Line! Re: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050707102516.00799360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 7/7/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > One of these days I'll find that Apple 1 board in the scrap boards bin :) Isn't there a list member who worked for HP or some other (non-Apple) Bay-area employer that passed up an Apple I, unassembled, in a baggie, for like $5 at a garage sale many years ago? the "non-Apple" is part of the story, because, ISTR, they passed it up _because_ it was an Apple and they worked for "the other guys". Ring any bells? -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 11:54:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FAQ? In-Reply-To: <1120751316.15420.122.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 09:41 -0400, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' > wrote: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/kb/ > > Thanks :) > > Next question - how do I add comments? Nowhere does it say I need to be > logged in, but at the moment I'm getting "submission failed" with no > useful error message. Anyone else had any luck? I submit articles regularly. I never have problems. I just submitted two articles and it worked fine. Might've been a temporary glitch. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 11:57:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Time to change the Subject Line! Re: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/7/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > One of these days I'll find that Apple 1 board in the scrap boards bin :) > > Isn't there a list member who worked for HP or some other (non-Apple) > Bay-area employer that passed up an Apple I, unassembled, in a baggie, > for like $5 at a garage sale many years ago? the "non-Apple" is part > of the story, because, ISTR, they passed it up _because_ it was an > Apple and they worked for "the other guys". > > Ring any bells? That was me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 11:57:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Time to change the Subject Line! Re: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/7/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > One of these days I'll find that Apple 1 board in the scrap boards bin :) > > Isn't there a list member who worked for HP or some other (non-Apple) > Bay-area employer that passed up an Apple I, unassembled, in a baggie, > for like $5 at a garage sale many years ago? the "non-Apple" is part > of the story, because, ISTR, they passed it up _because_ it was an > Apple and they worked for "the other guys". > > Ring any bells? Just kidding. Never heard this story. Sounds apocryphal. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 12:08:39 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:08:39 -0400 Subject: Time to change the Subject Line! Re: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050707102516.00799360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707130839.009bd310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:46 AM 7/7/05 -0500, you wrote: >On 7/7/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> One of these days I'll find that Apple 1 board in the scrap boards bin :) > >Isn't there a list member who worked for HP or some other (non-Apple) >Bay-area employer that passed up an Apple I, unassembled, in a baggie, >for like $5 at a garage sale many years ago? the "non-Apple" is part >of the story, because, ISTR, they passed it up _because_ it was an >Apple and they worked for "the other guys". > >Ring any bells? > That wasn't me but about 15 or 20 years ago I saw an ad in a local newspaper (IIRC) for an Apple 1 for something like $75. I remember thinking that it was a real part of computer history and someone should buy it and save it. Now I wish I'd done it! Joe From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 12:11:20 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:11:20 -0500 Subject: Time to change the Subject Line! Re: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/7/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Isn't there a list member who... passed up an Apple I... > > That was me. Ow! -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 7 12:21:18 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: B1000 Message-ID: <20050707172118.5089617D0A4@bitsavers.org> Alan Perry Wrote: > I have been looking for a Burroughs B1000 machine for maybe seven years. Have you ever posted this fact to the list? Two years ago, I made a cross-country trip, and one of the stops was to one of the last people who was doing third party service on 19xx's in Louisville. I took all of the maint docs, some of the packs and all of the boards from a 19xx because they were cleaning out a storage unit. I had several more stops to make, and had no room for the complete 1900 that he had. The 1900 CHM has came from a hospital in Kentucky and was picked up by someone who was interested in the machine and drove there and back to pick it up. > I have a bunch of Burroughs B20 workstations Aren't these rebadged Convergent NGENs ? Marvin Johnson has a bunch of docs on these. I didn't realize how sophisticated the OS was on these, probably should see about getting the docs scanned, if he still has the stuff. From kfergason at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 12:23:05 2005 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:23:05 -0500 Subject: Programming Language Inventor or Serial Killer? In-Reply-To: <200507071615.JAA16098@floodgap.com> References: <200507071615.JAA16098@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <78ff9a21050707102340b3b089@mail.gmail.com> On 7/7/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/ > > w00t, I got 7/10! Ha ha! I will slaughter you all, I mean, I did well. > 8/10. but i have a book on the top 100 criminals of the century at home... kelly From tomj at wps.com Thu Jul 7 13:50:58 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Joe R. wrote: > Subject: Re: Computer Museum > > I got this today from a from a guy that says that he's planning on > setting up a computer museum in the Orlando area. Interested parties > should contact him directly. >> We are only in the initial planning stage, thus we need to know what >> equipment is available. Locating, and subsequently gathering, the collection >> is the longest process, so we are starting it first. Umm, not to be cynical, but I think the first, the longest, the most difficult task, would be securing funding in order to continue existing. Sorry, but this sounds like a personal wet dream. Those are fine, but as they say, keep it in your pants. Even the San Diego museum had a hard go at it, and they are pros. A pile of stuff does not a museum make. The Maslin collection is a good example. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 7 13:53:35 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: source of blank 82S123s? Message-ID: <200507071853.LAA24496@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I doubt that the SuperElf requires high speed as needed by the HP. For the SuperElf, I'd suspect that EPROMs would be fine. Dwight >From: "Joe R." > >At 08:44 PM 7/6/05 -0700, you wrote: >> Very hard to find in anything less than large (and very expensive) >quantities. >> >> It may not be original equipment, but you could probably cobble up an >adapter to let a UV-EPROM replace the OTP PROM device. > > Er, no. EPROMs won't work. These are the same Bi-Polar PROMs used in the >HP 1000s and I thought of trying to use EPROMS too but EPROMS are too large >and much too slow and have an entirely different pinout. I'm also finding >that the PDP-8s use the same (or VERY similar) BiPolar PROMs. > > Perhaps we should consider a group purchase of a batch of blank BiPolar >PROMS? > > Joe > > > >> >> Happy hunting. >> >>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** >> >>On 06-Jul-05 at 14:58 Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>>I'm in search of a couple of blank 82S123s for my recently-aquired >>>SuperElf boards. Who still carries such things? >>> >>>Googling on 'blank 82s123' did not turn up anything promising. >>> >>>Thanks, >>> >>>-ethan >> >> >>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >>Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, >>Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com >>kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m >>"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with >surreal ports?" >> >> >> > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 7 13:59:04 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <200507071859.LAA24500@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > >At 12:10 AM 7/7/05 +0100, you wrote: >>> >>> Well, I finally got around to attempting to re-spool this stupidly >>> designed tape. >> >>It's actually avery ingenious design (it's the same design, basically, as >>QIC tape cartridges). Remember you want a constant tape speed past the >>head. By driving the outside of the tape spools at a constant speed >>(that's what the belt and drive puck do), rather than turning the spools >>themselves by their axles, that's exactly what you get. It avoids the >>capstan, pinch roller, slipping clutches, etc, used in audio tape and >>cassette recorders. > > The really ingenous part is that the belt attempts to rotate the take up >spool about 10% faster then the other spool. That's what tightens up the >tape if it ever gets slack. > > >> >>> >>> Your description sounds like a different tape than what I was dealing >>> with. The tape did not come off of either spool but was instead attached >>> onto both spools. >> >>THere were several designs, sure... >> >>> >>> At any rate, the stupid tensioning belt (whatever its called) broke on me. >>> Oh well, fuck that tape. I'll try to read it anyway (is the tensioning >>> belt necessary?) I also noticed numerous spots on the the tape where the >> >>Of course the belt is necessary. It's how the tape is driven. You can >>borrow one from another tape cartridge. > > Good luck! I could never replace a belt and make it work :=/ Hi Joe I have but I'll admit it was not easy. It is real easy to get the tape mangled. I've also repaired the roller at the corners on one. I don't know how it is done at the factory but they must have a special jig to get it all done right. Dwight ---snip--- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:27:24 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 19:27:24 +0000 Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> Message-ID: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 11:50 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Joe R. wrote: > > > Subject: Re: Computer Museum > > > > I got this today from a from a guy that says that he's planning on > > setting up a computer museum in the Orlando area. Interested parties > > should contact him directly. > > > >> We are only in the initial planning stage, thus we need to know what > >> equipment is available. Locating, and subsequently gathering, the collection > >> is the longest process, so we are starting it first. > > Umm, not to be cynical, but I think the first, the longest, the > most difficult task, would be securing funding in order to > continue existing. Depends on what their situation is with storage / display space I suppose. Public liability insurance is apparently cheap (at least over here), so getting something up and running isn't that difficult *if there's space available*. If they have some space in mind, very little cash would be needed at least for the first year or so - surviving beyond that might be harder without some decent sponsorship. Problem over here is that we're on a crowded island and the Government place use of buildings for museum space pretty much at the bottom of the ladder; I imagine that isn't so much of a problem in much of the US. Personally I wouldn't give anything to anyone who didn't have space for it already though - they should be able to amass enough of a collection first to know if it's viable, get some display space, and then put out an appeal to enthusiasts. cheers Jules From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Thu Jul 7 14:31:25 2005 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:31:25 -0400 Subject: Programming Language Inventor or Serial Killer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52DB8200-9ACA-489A-9B72-D138E5797B8A@mind-to-mind.com> On Jul 7, 2005, at 12:03 PM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/ Grrr. Only 8 out of 10 right... 2 false positives... From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 14:21:33 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:21:33 -0400 Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707152133.009ceb90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:50 AM 7/7/05 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >> Subject: Re: Computer Museum >> >> I got this today from a from a guy that says that he's planning on >> setting up a computer museum in the Orlando area. Interested parties >> should contact him directly. > > >>> We are only in the initial planning stage, thus we need to know what >>> equipment is available. Locating, and subsequently gathering, the collection >>> is the longest process, so we are starting it first. > >Umm, not to be cynical, but I think the first, the longest, the >most difficult task, would be securing funding in order to >continue existing. I agree and I'm waiting to see what happens with this attempt. Supposedly he has the backing of ITT Institute. Or it may just be another attempt to see what some guy can get people to give him. He keeps asking about donations and wants a list of what I have but I've told him that I'd be willing to LOAN him computers and asked what kind of stuff he's looking for and I haven't gotten a satisfactory reply yet. Time will tell. Joe > >Sorry, but this sounds like a personal wet dream. Those are fine, >but as they say, keep it in your pants. > >Even the San Diego museum had a hard go at it, and they are pros. > >A pile of stuff does not a museum make. The Maslin collection is a >good example. > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 14:30:28 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:30:28 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <200507071859.LAA24500@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707153028.009c3990@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:59 AM 7/7/05 -0700, Dwight wrote: >>From: "Joe R." >> >>At 12:10 AM 7/7/05 +0100, you wrote: >>>> >>>> Well, I finally got around to attempting to re-spool this stupidly >>>> designed tape. >>> >>>It's actually avery ingenious design (it's the same design, basically, as >>>QIC tape cartridges). Remember you want a constant tape speed past the >>>head. By driving the outside of the tape spools at a constant speed >>>(that's what the belt and drive puck do), rather than turning the spools >>>themselves by their axles, that's exactly what you get. It avoids the >>>capstan, pinch roller, slipping clutches, etc, used in audio tape and >>>cassette recorders. >> >> The really ingenous part is that the belt attempts to rotate the take up >>spool about 10% faster then the other spool. That's what tightens up the >>tape if it ever gets slack. >> >> >>> >>>> >>>> Your description sounds like a different tape than what I was dealing >>>> with. The tape did not come off of either spool but was instead attached >>>> onto both spools. That really wouldn't make any difference as long as the drive stops when it sees the BOT/EOT hole and doesn't run the tape off the spool. >>> >>>THere were several designs, sure... >>> >>>> >>>> At any rate, the stupid tensioning belt (whatever its called) broke on me. >>>> Oh well, fuck that tape. I'll try to read it anyway (is the tensioning >>>> belt necessary?) I also noticed numerous spots on the the tape where the >>> >>>Of course the belt is necessary. It's how the tape is driven. You can >>>borrow one from another tape cartridge. >> >> Good luck! I could never replace a belt and make it work :=/ > >Hi Joe > I have but I'll admit it was not easy. It is real easy to get >the tape mangled. I've also repaired the roller at the corners >on one. > I don't know how it is done at the factory but they must have >a special jig to get it all done right. Oh, I've gotten them back together (but you need about six hands to do it)! But even though they're back together exactly like an original they would never tighten up the slack. They'd run (till the slack got caught and wrapped under the tape on the take-up spool) but simply never take the slack out of the tape. Perhaps if I could run them at a slow speed the slack would eventually work it self out without getting caught and they'd be ok. But to tell the truth I've never had much luck with tape drives and I dispise the things! Joe From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 14:58:50 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:58:50 -0500 Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050707152133.009ceb90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <3.0.6.32.20050707152133.009ceb90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 7/7/05, Joe R. wrote: > I agree and I'm waiting to see what happens with this attempt. > Supposedly he has the backing of ITT Institute. Or it may just be another > attempt to see what some guy can get people to give him. He keeps asking > about donations and wants a list of what I have but I've told him that I'd > be willing to LOAN him computers and asked what kind of stuff he's looking > for and I haven't gotten a satisfactory reply yet. Time will tell. Indeed... getting (most) stuff is the easy part. Space/money is always the kicker. -ethan From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 15:16:19 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050707201619.80557.qmail@web30613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Oddly enough I recently had to try to come up with a (theoretical) business case for building a Museum of Computer Technology. Thinking about it I settled on location as being as key a driver as anything else. It's hard to imagine the Computer Museum of East Spit, PA (which is where I live) attracting donations or funding, or even state grants for preservation projects, but if you can tie into an area that has a direct connection to technology or to well-know technologists I think you'd be in a better position to convince benefactors or donors to contribute. Dave. --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > Indeed... getting (most) stuff is the easy part. > Space/money is > always the kicker. > > -ethan > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:15:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:15:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jul 6, 5 05:16:15 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I hate computers. > > > > Feel free to send me all your collection. > > Come get it. It's yours. Bring along six 40' shipping containers and a > crew of 7. I'll give you 24 hours and you have to take all or nothing. Which part of 'send' do you not understand :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:17:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:17:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: <20050706194415.0cd68265.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jul 6, 5 07:44:15 pm Message-ID: > On this topic, I recently located an original IBM Monochrome monitor, so > for me it's now just a matter of pulling out the EGA Techref and > jumpering the IBM EGA card in my AT for EGA monochrome and plugging the One thing a lot of people forget : There's a jumper on the board near the DE9 connector which selects where pin 2 of said DE9 goes (LSB of one of the colours for an EGA monitor, ground for an MDA or CGA monitor). If you set that to the EGA position and then connect an MDA (or for that matter CGA) monitor, you're shorting an output line to ground via the monitor cable. It probably won't do any harm, but why risk it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:19:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:19:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/23+ and rx-02 drives, need help!!! In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 6, 5 08:08:52 pm Message-ID: > > I'm not a 'Qbus person', much prefering Unibus machines, but IIRC one of > > the ST506/RX50 controllers (RQDX1 I think) had to be the last device on > > the bus since it didn't pass on grants. If that's the controller you > > have, then the RXV21 would mever get BGs or NPGs and woul;d probably do > > what you're seeing. Try putting the RXV21 first... > > Especially since the boot ROMs pull the boot sector off the floppy > without interrupts. You should see some activity, hear heads, Err, yes, but data transfer on the RXV21 always used DMA (NPR/NPG signals). If the RXV21 never sees a non-processor grant, it'll never transfer any data. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:23:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:23:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706201713.363f8c94.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jul 6, 5 08:17:13 pm Message-ID: > Even where IBM cards of that era used 'commodity' components, they were > usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere mortal to > figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor networks and > resistors/capacitors (except those few that have color-code bands.) Yes, but it's easy to measure the value of a resistor or capacitor, and even resistor networks can generally be figured out. HP used custom house-coded resistor netowrks in some of their products and it didn't stop me... In the case of semiconductors, both HP and DEC (only transistors and diodes AFAIK) used house-coded parts. But DEC printed the equivalents in the printset (which is generally not too hard to find) and HP equivalents lists have got out.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:29:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:29:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: from "plato computer" at Jul 6, 5 08:49:15 pm Message-ID: > I think that commodore went wrong in three areas. > > 1. they never put a standart rs232 port on their stuff. sure you could > use 1488's , but that was not the point. There was no real rs232. True... I have much the same moan about certain HP machines where the HPIB port is built-in (or an easy-to-find module), but the RS232 port is almost impossible to find now. > > 2. The disk drives were basically computers to themselves; Have you ever opened an HP91xx drive box? There's normally a 68B09 inside... > > 3. 40 columns just ain't cool. 80 is the way to go. Yes, but rememebr that Commodore were going for the home market, and wanted to be able to use a normal TV set as a monitor. I've not found a TV that can legibly display 80 columns if you feed the signal in to the aerial input (composite video inputs were not at all common then). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:38:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:38:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: from "Johnny Billquist" at Jul 7, 5 02:14:42 pm Message-ID: > > For the pre-1978 (or so) machines, you can pretty much debug down to the > > chip level. With the right Blue Binders, pretty much every last part is > > detailed to a silly extent. WAY more detailed than DEC docs. > > I don't see how anything could be more documented than having the complete > engineering drawings of the whole machine. And that's what you normally Err, what about ROM dumps, microcode sources, component layouts, PCB track patterns, and the like. To be fair, DEC printsets normally included that sort of information too... > got on old DEC machines. > That's what I have of the PDP-11/70. Full drawings of every curcuit in the > machine. And then I have all the technical manuals for all subsystems that > document things in a more text-like manner as well. You may be clever enough to be able to work everything out from the schematics alone, but I find the technical manuals useful too. If you want an interesting puzzle, try figuring out the floating point processor (at least the 11/45 one, I guess the 11/70 is similar) from the ROM dumps and schematics alone. It will take you quite a while I suspect. I think that's what was meant by 'more detailed'. The DEC docs are in one sense complete, but you may have to think quite hard to udnerstand them. IBM docs, from what I've heard, explain things really well, but they are non-trivial to find. > > But as usual: when in doubt, the drawings are the definitive authority. Err, the _machine_ is the ultimate authority. There may be ECOs and FCOs done to your PCB that are not in the docs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:43:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:43:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050707092839.00989430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jul 7, 5 09:28:39 am Message-ID: > I agreee but the problem is that a lot of us would like to recover the > original HP software from the tapes since a lot of it virtually never Agreed. Of course the belt failing is really a media issue, and is not strictly the same problem as being able to make a copy of the tape. > appeared on anything but the tapes. In addition, the programs on tape could > be "protected" and could not be copied. I know companies that run their > entire operation off of such commercailly produced protected tapes and are > willing to pay ANYTHING to keep them working since a failed tape will put > them out of business. Since the hardware details of the 9825, etc, tape drive and controller are known, it should be not too hard to link the bus interface side of that controller to another computer and read the tape at the bit level (rememebr the controller is a very simple device that does little to the bits coming off the tape). At which point it should be possible to copy _anything_. Of course this depends on the tape being still readable... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:46:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:46:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050707093955.00799100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jul 7, 5 09:39:55 am Message-ID: > > The really ingenous part is that the belt attempts to rotate the take up > spool about 10% faster then the other spool. That's what tightens up the > tape if it ever gets slack. How does that work? All points on the belt move with the same speed, the belt drives the outside of the 2 spools, so the surface speed of the spools must be the same. That's the tape speed. I don't see how it can move the tape faster on the takeup side. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:49:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:49:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox 6085's In-Reply-To: <42CD3665.6060402@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at Jul 7, 5 10:04:21 am Message-ID: > > I recently acquired a pair of 6085's, 1 keyboard/mouse. I have spoken > with the guys over at Digibarn and they've been very helpful with > info. The systems don't have monitors so getting them tested, and > running again is at a standstill. > > I am looking for 1 or more monitors, any manuals and/or documents on the > 6085's, Mesa and Viewpoint. If anyone has any spare boards, > keyboards, basically anything that they may be interested in > selling/trading, please let me know. I'm also still looking for a > Star8010 as well. I won't have time to work on mine for quite a bit, but just a heads-up to say that I have a Daybreak with monitor but no keyboard or mouse. I figured out the keyboard protocol by borrowing a keyboard and attacking it with logic analyser, etc, and I have some schematics for the boards. _If_ I ever get time, I'll take a look at the monitor and see what I can work out... -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 15:42:32 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:42:32 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120768952.15420.168.camel@weka.localdomain> I've just found that there are at least two case variants for the 380Z too; they have exactly the same connectors and panel blanking plates / cut-outs, but in a totally different arrangement, which seems a strange thing to do. (One styles does have the stencils for RGBS video signals on the back, but both types have the blanking plate / hole for the BNC video signals, so it doesn't seem to be the case that one type was never intended to have a colour board) I'm still hoping to find out one day why at least one of RML's adverts shows a white-cased 380Z; I've never heard of anyone who owns such a thing. I think at least one of my manuals mentions Tony's prototyping board in passing, but I've not seen any details on it though. cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 15:49:29 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:49:29 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/23+ and rx-02 drives, need help!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/7/05, Tony Duell wrote: > Err, yes, but data transfer on the RXV21 always used DMA (NPR/NPG > signals). If the RXV21 never sees a non-processor grant, it'll never > transfer any data. Ah, yes... I was thinking about the Heathkit H27 interface. Different critical details. Mea culpa. -ethan From news at computercollector.com Thu Jul 7 16:07:17 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:07:17 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507072112.j67LCDd6094128@keith.ezwind.net> LOL, I learned that lesson recently while trying to connect my Apple //c to a 31-inch television. It works for BASIC, but not in AppleWorks, where the manual 40/80 column switch doesn't help. Guess it's time for me to acquire an Apple monitor. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 3:30 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? > I think that commodore went wrong in three areas. > > 1. they never put a standart rs232 port on their stuff. sure you could > use 1488's , but that was not the point. There was no real rs232. True... I have much the same moan about certain HP machines where the HPIB port is built-in (or an easy-to-find module), but the RS232 port is almost impossible to find now. > > 2. The disk drives were basically computers to themselves; Have you ever opened an HP91xx drive box? There's normally a 68B09 inside... > > 3. 40 columns just ain't cool. 80 is the way to go. Yes, but rememebr that Commodore were going for the home market, and wanted to be able to use a normal TV set as a monitor. I've not found a TV that can legibly display 80 columns if you feed the signal in to the aerial input (composite video inputs were not at all common then). -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jul 7 16:39:43 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:39:43 -0500 Subject: FAQ? References: <200507071346.j67DkXsa085979@keith.ezwind.net> <1120751316.15420.122.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <00ea01c5833c$63697820$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jules wrote... > Next question - how do I add comments? Nowhere does it say I need to be > logged in, but at the moment I'm getting "submission failed" with no > useful error message. Anyone else had any luck? The comment feature was working fine until I upgraded to the latest release of the KB software a few weeks ago. Now the comment feature is broken, but you can post new articles. I emailed the author, he emailed me back a patch a few days ago to fix it. I just haven't applied that patch yet. Will get to it soon! Jay From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 16:34:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > I hate computers. > > > > > > Feel free to send me all your collection. > > > > Come get it. It's yours. Bring along six 40' shipping containers and a > > crew of 7. I'll give you 24 hours and you have to take all or nothing. > > Which part of 'send' do you not understand :-) Oops, sorry, didn't see that. Give me your address then. Make sure you have 800 square feet of space in your backyard cleared out. I figure we can stack the containers three high side by side. Expect delivery in about 6 weeks. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jul 7 16:42:17 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:42:17 -0500 Subject: Programming Language Inventor or Serial Killer? References: Message-ID: <00f101c5833c$bf5a4dd0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I did 10/10, but I must admit totally guessing on about 1/2 of them. Jay From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 16:39:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: <200507072112.j67LCDd6094128@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > LOL, I learned that lesson recently while trying to connect my Apple //c to > a 31-inch television. It works for BASIC, but not in AppleWorks, where the > manual 40/80 column switch doesn't help. Guess it's time for me to acquire > an Apple monitor. The 40/80 column switch on the //c does not activate anything. It's just a switch that can be read by software, and it's up to the software to decide what to do with the setting. As far as I know, it's like the human appendix. No software I ever came across referenced that switch for anything. The //c+ later replaced that switch with an audio volume slider. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 16:46:33 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 22:46:33 +0100 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120768952.15420.168.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1120768952.15420.168.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <26c11a6405070714466f944ae2@mail.gmail.com> On 7/7/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I've just found that there are at least two case variants for the 380Z > too; they have exactly the same connectors and panel blanking plates / > cut-outs, but in a totally different arrangement, which seems a strange > thing to do. (One styles does have the stencils for RGBS video signals > on the back, but both types have the blanking plate / hole for the BNC > video signals, so it doesn't seem to be the case that one type was never > intended to have a colour board) > > I'm still hoping to find out one day why at least one of RML's adverts > shows a white-cased 380Z; I've never heard of anyone who owns such a > thing. > > I think at least one of my manuals mentions Tony's prototyping board in > passing, but I've not seen any details on it though. > > cheers > > Jules > > We had some external harddrives for the 380Z server we had at the school I went to. They where in the same case as a 380Z but they where white (same cream colour as the newer 480Z) and the reset button was just a power light. Inside was 2 ST225N's with 2 xebec boards. I'm not sure if this was an original spec though. The drives could of been upgraded, they where the same as they used in the Nimbus. Dan From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jul 7 16:55:27 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:55:27 -0500 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") Message-ID: <010701c5833e$95edd550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> The /45 lives, got a console up with the console emulator today. I never did get a blinking lights program to show up right, but I'm too embarassed to admit what likely caused that. But I got a lot of other few instruction programs to work correctly so I moved on to the DL11 and 9312 setup and got it all working. Only have 8K of core, but hey, it's a start. Once I get it to boot from a peripheral I'll take out the loaned cpu set and move mine back in and see where it chokes. So now I have a few peripheral questions. I was going to put in an RL02 drive, but I've been advised against putting one in the same cabinet as the cpu cab is top cooling intake :\ Now I'm moving on instead to hooking up and testing a LincTape II and a DSD440 drive. I found the docs for the DSD440 drive on bitsavers; my drive is missing the controller to drive cable. From those docs it appears to be a straight through 2x13 pin berg connector at each end. Can anyone confirm this? Also, If the DSD440 drive is set for RX01, will it work with the standard dec boot rom (DX) on the 9312? Likewise, if it's set for RX02 emulation will it work with the DY boot room on the 9312? Or does the DSD440 need a unique bootrom? I also have the LincTape II & controller (&cable), model CO-3000D. However, I don't see any docs for it on bitsavers and my googling gives tons of stuff on the Linc, not the LincTape II. Does anyone have docs for the LincTape II in electronic format? Or better yet... a boot rom for it :> I have spare boot roms (DP, RP02/03 and DM, RK06/07) that I doubt I'll ever use and would be available for trade. Thanks! Jay West From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jul 7 16:59:58 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:59:58 -0400 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") References: <010701c5833e$95edd550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <17101.42462.358266.28294@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jay" == Jay West writes: Jay> The /45 lives, got a console up with the console emulator Jay> today. I never did get a blinking lights program to show up Jay> right, but I'm too embarassed to admit what likely caused Jay> that. But I got a lot of other few instruction programs to work Jay> correctly so I moved on to the DL11 and 9312 setup and got it Jay> all working. Only have 8K of core, but hey, it's a start. Congratulations. 8kW is enough for RT, at least for the older SJ versions. That's all I had on our physics department 11/20 in college... paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 7 17:06:23 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <200507072206.PAA24578@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > >At 11:59 AM 7/7/05 -0700, Dwight wrote: >>>From: "Joe R." >>> >>>At 12:10 AM 7/7/05 +0100, you wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Well, I finally got around to attempting to re-spool this stupidly >>>>> designed tape. >>>> >>>>It's actually avery ingenious design (it's the same design, basically, as >>>>QIC tape cartridges). Remember you want a constant tape speed past the >>>>head. By driving the outside of the tape spools at a constant speed >>>>(that's what the belt and drive puck do), rather than turning the spools >>>>themselves by their axles, that's exactly what you get. It avoids the >>>>capstan, pinch roller, slipping clutches, etc, used in audio tape and >>>>cassette recorders. >>> >>> The really ingenous part is that the belt attempts to rotate the take up >>>spool about 10% faster then the other spool. That's what tightens up the >>>tape if it ever gets slack. >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Your description sounds like a different tape than what I was dealing >>>>> with. The tape did not come off of either spool but was instead attached >>>>> onto both spools. > > That really wouldn't make any difference as long as the drive stops when >it sees the BOT/EOT hole and doesn't run the tape off the spool. > >>>> >>>>THere were several designs, sure... >>>> >>>>> >>>>> At any rate, the stupid tensioning belt (whatever its called) broke on >me. >>>>> Oh well, fuck that tape. I'll try to read it anyway (is the tensioning >>>>> belt necessary?) I also noticed numerous spots on the the tape where the >>>> >>>>Of course the belt is necessary. It's how the tape is driven. You can >>>>borrow one from another tape cartridge. >>> >>> Good luck! I could never replace a belt and make it work :=/ >> >>Hi Joe >> I have but I'll admit it was not easy. It is real easy to get >>the tape mangled. I've also repaired the roller at the corners >>on one. >> I don't know how it is done at the factory but they must have >>a special jig to get it all done right. > > Oh, I've gotten them back together (but you need about six hands to do >it)! But even though they're back together exactly like an original they >would never tighten up the slack. They'd run (till the slack got caught and >wrapped under the tape on the take-up spool) but simply never take the >slack out of the tape. Perhaps if I could run them at a slow speed the >slack would eventually work it self out without getting caught and they'd >be ok. But to tell the truth I've never had much luck with tape drives and >I dispise the things! > > Joe Hi Joe I had a trick to get the slack out but it was a long time ago and I've forgotten. I think I just ran is slowly by hand and it took the slack up but I just don't recall. Getting all the pins lined up at the same time was more of an issue. Like you said, it takes six or so hands. I was wondering if one completely unwound it onto a single spool that one could get it to take up the slack by threading it through on its own? It seems like they must have done something like this when they assembled them the first time. The design is such that it always pulls slightly more on the takeup reel. It isn't much but enough to take up the slack if it is only a little. Dwight From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 7 17:07:16 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:07:16 -0700 Subject: B20, was Re: B1000 References: <200507072145.j67LjaMY056614@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42CDA794.FF718B7C@rain.org> Yes, I still have Docs and software (BTOS?) for the B20 machine. I also have the CPU and HD modules along with the monitor with at least one power supply. The HD module died (it uses a Seagate ST-225 HD) when I accidentally shorted something out. If the schematics are available (preferably online), I would love to get a copy! Al, I have a friend of mine coming down from Pleasanton on Saturday, July 16, and I could give the stuff to him to bring up your way. IIRC, there is probably between one and two bankers box full of docs and software. >> Alan Perry Wrote: > Al Kossow Wrote: > > I have a bunch of Burroughs B20 workstations > > Aren't these rebadged Convergent NGENs ? > > Marvin Johnson has a bunch of docs on these. I didn't realize how sophisticated the > OS was on these, probably should see about getting the docs scanned, if he still has > the stuff. From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jul 7 17:13:15 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 17:13:15 -0500 Subject: B20, was Re: B1000 In-Reply-To: <42CDA794.FF718B7C@rain.org> References: <200507072145.j67LjaMY056614@dewey.classiccmp.org> <42CDA794.FF718B7C@rain.org> Message-ID: <42CDA8FB.5030100@mdrconsult.com> Marvin Johnston wrote: > Yes, I still have Docs and software (BTOS?) for the B20 machine. I also > have the CPU and HD modules along with the monitor with at least one > power supply. The HD module died (it uses a Seagate ST-225 HD) when I > accidentally shorted something out. If the schematics are available > (preferably online), I would love to get a copy! Oooh, OOOH! Mister Kottaire! :^) I have a working NGEN system with OS intact. Unfortunately it also has intact login protection. Docs and maybe a boot floppy would go a long way toward remedy of that problem. I think mine runs CTOS, not BTOS, but I'm not sure that would prevent editing the system files. Real disks, images, whatever, if it's possible. Reasonable compensation, of course. Doc From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 17:15:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:15:11 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <26c11a6405070714466f944ae2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1120768952.15420.168.camel@weka.localdomain> <26c11a6405070714466f944ae2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120774511.15420.183.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 22:46 +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > We had some external harddrives for the 380Z server we had at the > school I went to. They where in the same case as a 380Z but they where > white (same cream colour as the newer 480Z) and the reset button was > just a power light. Inside was 2 ST225N's with 2 xebec boards. I'm not > sure if this was an original spec though. The drives could of been > upgraded, they where the same as they used in the Nimbus. Hmm, now that's interesting. My 380Z fileserver has the same black case to it for the hard disk as the normal 380Z. As with the ones you remember, there's no reset button, just a power light, and there's a Xebec board inside. Can't recall what drive mine has inside, but it's a full-height unit so definitely not a '225. I suppose it makes more sense for them to be white/cream rather than black, given that they were supposed to be used with the cream 480Z systems - in which case maybe my black one's something of the odd one out! One day I'll bump into an ex-RML employee who has all the definite answers to everything (I hope :) I don't *think* the fileservers were meant to be used with a network of 380Z machines - but that's only going by the fact that I've never seen a 380Z with a network interface in it, except for my fileserver controller. Maybe they did exist as a standard network shipped by RML and that's why my fileserver unit is black... (mine was certainly used with 480Z's though as I got both fileserver and 480Z machines in the same pile from a school) At least that's confirmation that the cream/white machines did actually exist though! cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 7 17:25:18 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <200507072225.PAA24583@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> The really ingenous part is that the belt attempts to rotate the take up >> spool about 10% faster then the other spool. That's what tightens up the >> tape if it ever gets slack. > >How does that work? All points on the belt move with the same speed, the >belt drives the outside of the 2 spools, so the surface speed of the >spools must be the same. That's the tape speed. I don't see how it can >move the tape faster on the takeup side. > >-tony > Hi I'm not sure how it works. The 10% number is not even close. It is more like 0.5% or so. It does take up slack over time. I think it has to do with the stretch of the belt. There is more tention on one spool than the other, making one side move a little faster than the other. The one spool getting the more stretched belt would tend to move a little faster than the side without stretch on it since it would see more effective belt movement. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 7 18:33:05 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050707162858.B63681@shell.lmi.net> > > > > > I hate computers. > > > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Feel free to send me all your collection. > > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Come get it. It's yours. Bring along six 40' shipping containers and a > > > crew of 7. I'll give you 24 hours and you have to take all or nothing. > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Which part of 'send' do you not understand :-) On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Oops, sorry, didn't see that. Give me your address then. Make sure you > have 800 square feet of space in your backyard cleared out. I figure we > can stack the containers three high side by side. > Expect delivery in about 6 weeks. SIX 40' containers, ??????? That sounds suspiciously like the culled duplicates from Sellam's collection, not the whole thing. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Jul 7 19:17:23 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:17:23 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: Message-ID: <002e01c58352$6ae310f0$0100a8c0@screamer> So what would be a good guess at the value of a working Imlac PDS-1 'alpha' machine? From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 19:28:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <010701c5833e$95edd550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Jay West wrote: > testing a LincTape II and a DSD440 drive. I found the docs for the DSD440 > drive on bitsavers; my drive is missing the controller to drive cable. From > those docs it appears to be a straight through 2x13 pin berg connector at > each end. Can anyone confirm this? Yes, it is. > Also, If the DSD440 drive is set for > RX01, will it work with the standard dec boot rom (DX) on the 9312? > Likewise, if it's set for RX02 emulation will it work with the DY boot room > on the 9312? Or does the DSD440 need a unique bootrom? As far as I know, it emulates DX or DY. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 19:30:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <200507072225.PAA24583@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I'm not sure how it works. The 10% number is not even > close. It is more like 0.5% or so. It does take up slack > over time. I think it has to do with the stretch of the > belt. There is more tention on one spool than the other, > making one side move a little faster than the other. > The one spool getting the more stretched belt would tend > to move a little faster than the side without stretch on > it since it would see more effective belt movement. I would think that the faster spindle has a smaller diameter than the slower one. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 19:31:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: <20050707162858.B63681@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > SIX 40' containers, ??????? > That sounds suspiciously like the culled duplicates > from Sellam's collection, > not the whole thing. SHHHHHHHHH! You're giving it away!! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 19:32:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <002e01c58352$6ae310f0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > So what would be a good guess at the value of a working Imlac PDS-1 'alpha' > machine? I'd say it would fetch at least an IMSAI. Possibly more. If you advertised pictures of it playing Spacewar! then it'd definitely sell for more ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Jul 7 19:41:28 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:41:28 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line References: Message-ID: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> Several people have asked if photos of some of my HP's were on-line. A handfull of new photos can be seen at: http://www.infionline.net/~wtnewton/oldcomp/hp2100/HP_photos.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 19:27:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 01:27:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120768952.15420.168.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 7, 5 08:42:32 pm Message-ID: > > > I've just found that there are at least two case variants for the 380Z > too; they have exactly the same connectors and panel blanking plates / > cut-outs, but in a totally different arrangement, which seems a strange > thing to do. (One styles does have the stencils for RGBS video signals > on the back, but both types have the blanking plate / hole for the BNC > video signals, so it doesn't seem to be the case that one type was never > intended to have a colour board) I don't think I've seen one with the RGB sockets labelled on the back panel. My RGB board, and the one I fitted to a machine back at school, had coloured dots stuck on the bracket hodling the BNCs to label them. The intallation notes for the RGB board in my machine mention at least 3 case variants : 'For most black case 380Zs : facing the rear panel, remove the rectangular blanking plate on the lower right of the rear panel (behind the drives on an MDS-2). There may be one or two blanking plates, if two use the one nearest the righthand side. On a few black case machines a horizontally alighend rectangular hole was provided; this will need slightly enlarging by the user before an RGB board can be fitted For blue-case (early model) 380Zs : consult Research Machines' There were also at least 3 different front panels : no drives, 2 horizontally-mounted full-height drives, and 2 vertically mounted 2/3rd height drivwa. > > I'm still hoping to find out one day why at least one of RML's adverts > shows a white-cased 380Z; I've never heard of anyone who owns such a > thing. I've seen a hard disk unit in much the same case as at 380Z but white-ish in colour. > > I think at least one of my manuals mentions Tony's prototyping board in > passing, but I've not seen any details on it though. It's mentioned in the Information File IIRC... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 19:42:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 01:42:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jul 7, 5 05:30:43 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > I'm not sure how it works. The 10% number is not even > > close. It is more like 0.5% or so. It does take up slack > > over time. I think it has to do with the stretch of the > > belt. There is more tention on one spool than the other, > > making one side move a little faster than the other. > > The one spool getting the more stretched belt would tend > > to move a little faster than the side without stretch on > > it since it would see more effective belt movement. > > I would think that the faster spindle has a smaller diameter than the > slower one. Yes, but remember the belt drives the outide of the tape on the 2 spools. Yes, the smaller spindle will turn quicker (more revs per second), but to tension the tape you need to move the tape faster (more inches per second) on the takeup side. And I still don't see why this happens. -tony From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Jul 7 20:30:15 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 18:30:15 -0700 Subject: Cables, part II Message-ID: <6b728ad4cb31b763af1f57bacf3b2d3b@valleyimplants.com> bit rushed on the first post, it seems. 1 ERGO (Tektronix X-terminal cable) 1 DECstation/VAXstation 3100/x SCSI -> Centronics 50 Of course, trades will be considered, but if not they are available for shipping+a bit for bother. Seattle area. Scott Quinn From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Jul 7 21:32:15 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 22:32:15 -0400 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") References: <010701c5833e$95edd550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <00a201c58365$41c25ec0$0100a8c0@screamer> My recollections and recommendations... The boot rom for the DSD drive is already on the 9312 from the 11/34 system. It is a standard DEC rom, I think RX02. Also, use the MOS memory from the 11/34 to boot. I'd recommend you boot from the DSD drives, or one of the RL01's. You have several bootable RL01 packs, but there are still two or three left here. One of the packs that's still here is the one that has the driver source for the LincTape drive. I never had a boot rom for the Linc, and its not really a practical boot device for RT-11. No cable for the DSD setup eh? Hmmm, must still be in the garage.... It is a normal ribbon cable just as you suspect. As best I recall, the LincTape II supports both DecTape and LincTape formats (they are not the same). Way back in the Eli Heffron days I used to get requests to transfer data from Linc or DecTape and copy it onto RX02's, but this became painful and we stopped doing this 'service'. The drives you have (LincTape II and DSD) are the very drives I used for this. I have a bunch of media for the LincTape II drive. Al K. 'borrowed' several tapes that had something of interest when he picked up the MIT CADR as well. But there are still many tapes here you need to get. As for mounting the RL01, there is still an H-960 sitting here! I think I also have a box of floppy disks for the DSD setup. You did get the OMSI Pascal packs, right? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 5:55 PM Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") > The /45 lives, got a console up with the console emulator today. I never > did get a blinking lights program to show up right, but I'm too embarassed > to admit what likely caused that. But I got a lot of other few instruction > programs to work correctly so I moved on to the DL11 and 9312 setup and > got it all working. Only have 8K of core, but hey, it's a start. Once I > get it to boot from a peripheral I'll take out the loaned cpu set and move > mine back in and see where it chokes. > > So now I have a few peripheral questions. I was going to put in an RL02 > drive, but I've been advised against putting one in the same cabinet as > the cpu cab is top cooling intake :\ Now I'm moving on instead to hooking > up and testing a LincTape II and a DSD440 drive. I found the docs for the > DSD440 drive on bitsavers; my drive is missing the controller to drive > cable. From those docs it appears to be a straight through 2x13 pin berg > connector at each end. Can anyone confirm this? Also, If the DSD440 drive > is set for RX01, will it work with the standard dec boot rom (DX) on the > 9312? Likewise, if it's set for RX02 emulation will it work with the DY > boot room on the 9312? Or does the DSD440 need a unique bootrom? > > I also have the LincTape II & controller (&cable), model CO-3000D. > However, I don't see any docs for it on bitsavers and my googling gives > tons of stuff on the Linc, not the LincTape II. Does anyone have docs for > the LincTape II in electronic format? Or better yet... a boot rom for it > :> > > I have spare boot roms (DP, RP02/03 and DM, RK06/07) that I doubt I'll > ever use and would be available for trade. > > Thanks! > > Jay West > From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jul 7 21:40:26 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:40:26 -0500 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: References: <20050706194415.0cd68265.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050707214026.4ac19cf7.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:17:59 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > On this topic, I recently located an original IBM Monochrome > > monitor, so for me it's now just a matter of pulling out the EGA > > Techref and jumpering the IBM EGA card in my AT for EGA monochrome > > and plugging the > > One thing a lot of people forget : There's a jumper on the board near > the DE9 connector which selects where pin 2 of said DE9 goes (LSB of > one of the colours for an EGA monitor, ground for an MDA or CGA > monitor). If you set that to the EGA position and then connect an MDA > (or for that matter CGA) monitor, you're shorting an output line to > ground via the monitor cable. It probably won't do any harm, but why > risk it... > > Yes, if I remember correctly, there are two jumper areas on the original EGA card that need to be moved. I bought an EGA card years ago from a second hand dealer and it came with the techref suppliment, which I still have. Thanks for reminding me to be careful and doublecheck when I get going on that AT. I was probably one of the few people who ran EGA-Monochrome on an XT, back when an XT was all I could afford. EGA-Monochrome was very well supported in a few essential apps like Microsoft Word for DOS, and it also gave a MUCH better video resolution for Windows 3.0 on a 9-pin mono monitor than a Hercules card. Back in the days when I was too cheap to buy an expensive EGA monitor and ran Windows on an 8088 machine... Running EGA-monochrome kept me from wasting my time playing games, since there was none, nadda, no support at all for gameplaying type graphics on EGA-mono. > -tony > From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Jul 7 21:43:27 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 22:43:27 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: Message-ID: <00b101c58366$d2bfdfa0$0100a8c0@screamer> Is there a short vector version of SpaceWar? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 8:32 PM Subject: Re: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > >> So what would be a good guess at the value of a working Imlac PDS-1 >> 'alpha' >> machine? > > I'd say it would fetch at least an IMSAI. Possibly more. If you > advertised pictures of it playing Spacewar! then it'd definitely sell for > more ;) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jul 7 21:45:15 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:45:15 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <20050706201014.3e790a6a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050707214515.18aa1d91.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > Believe me, a day will probably come when people who are in their > > twenties now will wax nostalgic on that old Leading Edge or Packard > > Bell clone they started out on as a little kid, and want one just > > like it. And most of them will have been melted down. > > I've got each in my collection ;) > > I'm not saying they're rare or anything, but I've hardly seen any 286 > or 386 computers come through my warehouse in the past few months. > The trickle has definitely slowed down. If you think you might have a > need for a 286 or 386 in the future, you should probably be wanting to > find a nice representative system right around now. > An important thing to keep a 'representative example' of in a 286 machine is one of the early 'full AT' motherboards from before the 'chipsets' hit the market. An original IBM-AT motherboard, or one of the first cloners, will have the same Intel 8xxx series LSI chips as the PC-XT machines and tons of TTL gates, and no 'custom' chips at all (aside from PALs). Also worth getting ahold of are the early 'full-AT' 386 motherboards which have aprox the same design. Better yet if you can get one that has a matching proprietary 'RAM Expansion' card. Those early AT systems are eminently repairable, and 'understandable' on the chip-level, since there aren't the 'mystery' chipset conglomeration parts that came into fashion when the 'Baby-AT' boards hit the market. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jul 7 21:51:06 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:51:06 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <00bc01c582b0$307ef9d0$5b7da418@game> References: <00bc01c582b0$307ef9d0$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: <20050707215106.0f4d6c80.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:56:08 -0400 "Teo Zenios" wrote: > > Leading Edge and Packard Bells always sucked (my first PC was a new > 286 Packard Bell). I did always want a 386 Gateway desktop case, those > looked nice. The high end Northgates and Everex machines looked nice > (could be 486 era). > > My first 'PC' used an early non-turbo XT-clone motherboard I bought at a swapmeet. At the same swapmeet I bought an original 63.5 watt IBM supply, a used 'Leading Edge, model D' case (just the sheet metal bits), and an IBM MDA card. I already had an IBM keyboard that had no case on it. When I got the whole mess home, the only way to fit the XT motherboard in the case was to cut away all but one of the 'card edge slots' in the LE case as it used different card connector spacing. The only way to fit the power supply was to strip it entirely out of it's original IBM case and mount the circuit board on standoffs in the Leading Edge case. So that's what I did. Add two 360K floppy drives and an original IBM MDA card and you've got my first PC. What a conglomeration that system was. It lasted for years and years. It makes the 'case modding' that enthusiasts dabble in today look like childsplay. > > > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jul 7 21:55:48 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:55:48 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <20050706201713.363f8c94.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050707215548.06c8346a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:23:16 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Even where IBM cards of that era used 'commodity' components, they > > were usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere > > mortal to figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor > > networks and resistors/capacitors (except those few that have > > color-code bands.) > > Yes, but it's easy to measure the value of a resistor or capacitor, > and even resistor networks can generally be figured out. HP used > custom house-coded resistor netowrks in some of their products and it > didn't stop me... > Figuring out alien unmarked and complex resistor networks is a nerds treat. It's a mathematical puzzle in physical form. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jul 7 22:00:53 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 22:00:53 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: <200507070221.TAA13070@floodgap.com> References: <20050706202849.2455b3d6.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200507070221.TAA13070@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20050707220053.506d7ebb.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I am now working in a deparment where there is an SX64 still 'in > > production' hooked up to a test fixture and occasionally used. I am > > keeping a close eye on it and hope one day when it gets 'obsoleted' > > it'll head my way. (in fact it'll probably be my job to rig up it's > > replacement) I received a complete regular Commodore 64 system with > > 1571 drive a few weeks ago, all boxed up, with the custom data > > aquisition card for the test fixture application it was used for. > > > > Yep. There's at least ONE SX-64 out there still IN USE that I hope > > to acquire when it's retired. > > Could a photograph be taken? I think the Commodore masses would love > it. > > -- I should look into that. I have access to digital cameras in that particular lab, and no super-secret proprietary stuff would be revealed... Got another commie today on the way home at a garage sale. A 'classic' C64, a 1541 and a 1541-II, plus two third-party printers and all the cables and rigging. It also included a whole TON of what appeared to be commercial boxed software, except there was not a SINGLE floppy diskette in the batch, just all the fancy color-printed boxes. Some dastardly soul probably snatched and put MS-DOS stuff on those disks fifteen years ago... From mokuba at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 22:08:20 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 23:08:20 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Oops, sorry, didn't see that. Give me your address then. Make sure you > have 800 square feet of space in your backyard cleared out. I figure we > can stack the containers three high side by side. > > Expect delivery in about 6 weeks. I can take the delivery, empty farmland behind - Let's get started! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 22:09:44 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 22:09:44 -0500 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <17101.42462.358266.28294@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <010701c5833e$95edd550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <17101.42462.358266.28294@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 7/7/05, Paul Koning wrote: > 8kW is enough for RT, at least for the older SJ versions. That's all > I had on our physics department 11/20 in college... It'll boot, but wow... that'd be tight. I'm used to RT-11 v2.x and 4.x w/32Kw. Plenty of room to knock around. -ethan From computer at officereach.net Fri Jul 8 00:08:09 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:08:09 -0700 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line In-Reply-To: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: Bob, I'll let this be a source of inspiration for my own projects, to show what you can do when you put your time to get something done. Thanks not only for the great pics, but apparently having an amazing computer for display. Thanks again. -----Original Message----- From: "Bob Shannon" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:41:28 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line > Several people have asked if photos of some of my HP's were on-line. > > A handfull of new photos can be seen at: > > http://www.infionline.net/~wtnewton/oldcomp/hp2100/HP_photos.html > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 8 00:30:30 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:30:30 -0700 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") Message-ID: <42CE0F76.1030703@bitsavers.org> Also, use the MOS memory from the 11/34 to boot. -- Doesn't this require a DD11 backplane with Modified Unibus Device (MUD) slots? === Al K. 'borrowed' several tapes that had something of interest when he picked up the MIT CADR as well. -- They were finally read last year when I got a TC11 working again, along with some that I 'borrowed' from Jay on the same trip. Should all of them be sent to Jay? From tomj at wps.com Fri Jul 8 01:04:59 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 23:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intercept (6100) PDP-8 compatibility? Message-ID: <20050707230302.R1403@fiche.wps.com> I know the base instruction set is right but I'm fairly sure the IO structure is radically different, but -- What peripgherals and OS software is available for, or runs on, the Intercept? (Not the Jr board, the rack-mount job). I'm thinking it might make a comfortably modern old machine... From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jul 8 01:14:24 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 01:14:24 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42CE19C0.4050605@oldskool.org> Joe R. wrote: > Don't take this personally BUT: Why didn't you bid your max bid the > first time??????? If you had you would have won the item. I take this one step further and use a service (esnipe) to snipe all of my auctions. That way, I bid one price and walk away -- AND, because I bid 10 seconds before the end of the auction, nobody can see what I'm bidding on until it's too late. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jul 8 01:18:12 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 01:18:12 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42CE1AA4.9050206@oldskool.org> Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > The starting price does not affect the cost of the auction to the > seller, its the selling price that determines the cost. So, its not a > matter of saving money, its a matter of scaring off bidders. I thought the whole point of listing something on ebay was to **SELL** it. But you actively take measures to scare bidders away? Why, that's pure genius! I must try this "piss off any potential customers" technique you speak of. I am sure to triple my income! (ducking) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jul 8 01:19:59 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 01:19:59 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <42C97E08.50404@mdrconsult.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> <42C97E08.50404@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <42CE1B0F.7050702@oldskool.org> Doc Shipley wrote: > Sniping *can* benefit the buyer, price-wise. However, your assumption > that late bids are always about the money just doesn't hold water. Agreed. I snipe auctions because I specifically don't want other people to monitor my ID and see what I'm bidding on. It has nothing to do with being a cheapskate; I always think about a price for a minute, then set up the snipe with my maximum bid (MAXIMUM, not $1 or something), then walk away. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 8 05:14:03 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 06:14:03 -0400 Subject: 50 Hz Shugart SA-851s... Message-ID: In the process of getting Dave Dunfield a door button for his Seimens 8 incher, I went through my whole stack of 8 inch drives and parts. I "found" a couple of SA-851s that, while the serial number plate says they are 115 volt, 60 Hz, are in fact built with the 50Hz drive pulley. You can put them next to a "normal" SA-851 and see that the pulley is a different size and I just confirmed it by putting a diskette in one, powering it up, putting a scope on the index signal and seeing that (on 60 Hz power) it is turning at 432 RPM a 20 percent increase over the 360 rpm it should be turning at. Other than that little problem, the drives seem to mostly function, that is, they seek, report track zero, etc. They appear to have seen very little use (probably because they don't fully work). Anyway, they weigh a ton (like most 8 inch drives) but is there anyone within reasonable shipping charges of Washington, DC that could use them and would want to work out a trade? Alternatively, it just occurred to me that maybe I could just exchange pulley wheels with someone? Bill S. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 8 06:25:06 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 11:25:06 +0000 Subject: Free: CBM PETs, disk unit, Sinclair QL (Abingdon UK) Message-ID: <1120821906.17516.2.camel@weka.localdomain> Got this one the other day - we don't need any more PET or QL stuff, and he's given me permission to post here. Contact him directly if interested - he's got a couple of weeks before he moves apparently. cheers Jules -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: Chris Jones Reply-To: member at chilemonster.freeserve.co.uk To: donations at retrobeep.org Subject: Donation offer Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:43:53 +0200 (CEST) Hi Jules, I have two commodore CBM computers from the 80s which still work (an 8032 and 4032 upgraded from and labelled 3008). There is also a 5.25" disk drive (working) plus manuals/books/software etc. Would you be interested in adding them to your collection, or know someone that would? I am moving house and will readily donate them - I dont really want them to end up in land fill! There is also a sinclair QL and memory expansion/manuals etc. Thanks Chris Jones Abingdon From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 8 06:38:33 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 11:38:33 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120822713.17516.12.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-08 at 01:27 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > For blue-case (early model) 380Zs : consult Research Machines' > > There were also at least 3 different front panels : no drives, 2 > horizontally-mounted full-height drives, and 2 vertically mounted 2/3rd > height drivwa. Yep - plus front panels that say 380Z-FD rather than just 380Z, and of course one that says Winchester Disk rather than 380Z. Plus it sounds like there are at least five different rear case panels - two variants with the same holes, one with two RGB-type holes, one with a horizontal RGB-type hole, and the one for the Winchester unit. Then there are white-cased and blue-cased machines on top of that. Actually, I'd not heard of the blue-cased machines before. Maybe they're in standard off-the-shelf instrument cases rather than with RML logos, panel cut-outs etc.? I don't know of anyone with anything other than a black-cased machine (albeit there are a few variants out there) - shows how much RML hardware and knowledge has been lost I suppose :-( Oh, Xebec board in my fileserver is an S1410, for which I have a manual and a couple of spare boards, so I can do some messing around with a PC parallel port driver. There's even a sample Z80 interface schematic in the back of the manual that's probably adaptable... Still concerned about timings though as some of the timing diagrams do have upper constraints on signal changes (a lot of them only specify a minimum limit). Time will tell if the PC's port is quick enough... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 8 06:45:17 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 11:45:17 +0000 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line In-Reply-To: References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <1120823117.17516.17.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 22:08 -0700, plato computer wrote: > Bob, I'll let this be a source of inspiration for my own projects, to > show what you can do when you put your time to get something done. > Thanks not only for the great pics, but apparently having an amazing > computer for display. Thanks again. I love photo 4 with the flare around the panel lamps! Lifting that 2116 into the top of that cabinet must have been a nightmare; those things weigh a *lot*. One day we might be able to get our HP stuff sorted like this! (we've got a nice HP polar display that's crying out to have something interesting done with it) cheers Jules From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Jul 8 07:00:09 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 08:00:09 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line In-Reply-To: <1120823117.17516.17.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> <1120823117.17516.17.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42CE6AC9.nailCT118URJ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > we've got a nice HP polar display that's crying out to have something > interesting done with it Can it be used in "pure" X-Y? Even if it cannot, making an analog computer that integrates the Lorenz equations and allowing some knobs to vary the parameters produces really pretty displays. Takes a couple of analog multipliers. See my usenet posts on the subject from early this year. Tim. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jul 8 07:09:15 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 08:09:15 -0400 Subject: Intercept (6100) PDP-8 compatibility? Message-ID: <0IJB00HY45Q6BBK6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Intercept (6100) PDP-8 compatibility? > From: Tom Jennings > Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 23:04:59 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >I know the base instruction set is right but I'm fairly sure the >IO structure is radically different, but -- > >What peripgherals and OS software is available for, or runs on, >the Intercept? (Not the Jr board, the rack-mount job). > >I'm thinking it might make a comfortably modern old machine... > You can run most base PDP-8 software. The small difference is the console IOTs are differently assigned but easily fixed in the code. Its the side effect of their IO devices. Allison From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 09:36:27 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:36:27 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> <1120823117.17516.17.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <008501c583ca$6cbfaaa0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> VERY nice setup Bob!! I really should get some pictures of my HP bays online too, it'd be a good contrast to Bob's setup. His seems to have more of a test & measurement bent, while mine is more of a general computing bent. However, to do that, I'd have to dump the digital camera of mine that has started taking icky pictures and buy a new one :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 09:38:31 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:38:31 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <009001c583ca$b7813d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> To me, what is especially outstanding about Bob's setup is the IDE hard drive interface, and the homebrew paper tape reader & punch to/from EEprom. Talk about an incredible application of new technology to old technology!!! Outstanding!! Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 09:56:32 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:56:32 -0500 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") References: <010701c5833e$95edd550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <00a201c58365$41c25ec0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <00a001c583cd$3aa0d3c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bob wrote... > The boot rom for the DSD drive is already on the 9312 from the 11/34 > system. It is a standard DEC rom, I think RX02. I found a DX & DY boot rom on that 9312, which I assumed was the right one but I didn't know if the DSD required a non-standard (ie. non-DEC) boot rom. It appears that it uses a standard boot rom, so I'm all set there. I really wish the DSD440 I got from you had the rails, but I'm going to dig around here and see if I have some rails that will fit it. > Also, use the MOS memory from the 11/34 to boot. Yes, but.... if I pull the memory from the /34 I won't have any memory for the /34 which I DO plan to restore in the near future. Plus, there's been some discussion about that memory needing a MUD slot. I'll sort it out before too long. > One of the packs that's still here is the one that has the driver source > for the LincTape drive. Ug... I definitely would like to get that! > No cable for the DSD setup eh? Hmmm, must still be in the garage.... > It is a normal ribbon cable just as you suspect. I bought a 26 conductor 10 foot rainbow ribbon cable yesterday, along with a few 2x13 IDC connectors. So, I'll just make my own connector. As I recall, rainbow ribbon cables normally use brown for pin 1. I also bit the bullet and bought an IDC crimp tool, I've used a bench vise in the past and it just doesn't work well - too many broken connectors ;) > I have a bunch of media for the LincTape II drive. Al K. 'borrowed' > several tapes that had something of interest when he picked up the > MIT CADR as well. But there are still many tapes here you need to > get. I'd love to get those tapes Bob! But as a side note... dare I ask... is new media for linctape II available anywhere? The stuff is old enough I'm concerned about tape decay... > As for mounting the RL01, there is still an H-960 sitting here! > I think I also have a box of floppy disks for the DSD setup. I have an H-960 spare. I was REALLY hoping to make the 11/45 a single bay setup, but it doesn't seem that is really possible. I'll have to hunt up a "tie together" kit to bolt my two racks together if I wind up going the dual bay route :| > You did get the OMSI Pascal packs, right? I am 99% sure that one or more of the packs I got from you was labled OMSI Pascal. I think I already have a 3rd party pascal compiler on RX02 media, not positive about that. I do know I have the Saturn Word Processing system distribution on RX02 if anyone needs that. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 09:59:19 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:59:19 -0500 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") References: <42CE0F76.1030703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <00ab01c583cd$9e6b3e90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bob had written... > Also, use the MOS memory from the 11/34 to boot. To which Al replied... > Doesn't this require a DD11 backplane with Modified Unibus Device (MUD) > slots? Yes, it does. I have a BA11 with DD11 (9 slot I think). I've got several options here, I'll post that in a separate post momentarily soliciting advice :) Al wrote (re: LincTape media) > Should all of them be sent to Jay? I believe that was Bob's intent, but I don't want to speak for Bob. Jay From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 19:53:56 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:53:56 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050707093955.00799100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707205356.009ca570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:46 PM 7/7/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> The really ingenous part is that the belt attempts to rotate the take up >> spool about 10% faster then the other spool. That's what tightens up the >> tape if it ever gets slack. > >How does that work? All points on the belt move with the same speed, the >belt drives the outside of the 2 spools, so the surface speed of the >spools must be the same. That's the tape speed. I don't see how it can >move the tape faster on the takeup side. I don't know but that's what HP claims in one of the computer manuals. Maybe it doesn't work. That would match my experience! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 20:04:13 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 21:04:13 -0400 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <010701c5833e$95edd550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707210413.009cbb20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:55 PM 7/7/05 -0500, you wrote: >The /45 lives, got a console up with the console emulator today. I never did >get a blinking lights program to show up right, but I'm too embarassed to >admit what likely caused that. But I got a lot of other few instruction >programs to work correctly so I moved on to the DL11 and 9312 setup and got >it all working. Only have 8K of core, but hey, it's a start. Once I get it >to boot from a peripheral I'll take out the loaned cpu set and move mine >back in and see where it chokes. > >So now I have a few peripheral questions. I was going to put in an RL02 >drive, but I've been advised against putting one in the same cabinet as the >cpu cab is top cooling intake :\ Now I'm moving on instead to hooking up and >testing a LincTape II and a DSD440 drive. I found the docs for the DSD440 >drive on bitsavers; my drive is missing the controller to drive cable. From >those docs it appears to be a straight through 2x13 pin berg connector at >each end. Can anyone confirm this? Yeap. it's a straight through 26 pin ribbon cable. That's what the manual says and I have an original cable and I've checked it. One hole is plugged on each connector so that they can't be installed backwards. I don't remember which one it is but you should be able to tell by looking at the mating connectors. If you're not sure I'll go look. FWIW I've been working on my DSD drives. One is acting very weird but I got one working perfectly. I have one more that's missing a drive and it occasionally gives CRC errors but I have more drives that may work. Also, If the DSD440 drive is set for >RX01, will it work with the standard dec boot rom (DX) on the 9312? >Likewise, if it's set for RX02 emulation will it work with the DY boot room >on the 9312? Or does the DSD440 need a unique bootrom? According to the manual it should act exactly like a RX01 or RX02 depending on the jumper setting. I think I remember the manual saying that the standard boot ROMs would work with it but I'm not certain. BTW I have an extra DSD manual if you need one. Joe > >I also have the LincTape II & controller (&cable), model CO-3000D. However, >I don't see any docs for it on bitsavers and my googling gives tons of stuff >on the Linc, not the LincTape II. Does anyone have docs for the LincTape II >in electronic format? Or better yet... a boot rom for it :> > >I have spare boot roms (DP, RP02/03 and DM, RK06/07) that I doubt I'll ever >use and would be available for trade. > >Thanks! > >Jay West > > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Jul 8 10:39:52 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 08:39:52 -0700 Subject: [hercules-390] Vintage IBM Mainframe Stuff References: Message-ID: <42CE9E48.DFE1D136@msm.umr.edu> Roy Carlson is the seller. I recently purchased a service device for DASD, and Storage Directors, which reads 8" floppies, which was much more in line with collector prices. The prices he is asking for the drek is in line with curio and display junk listings, not for vintage computer groups. That market will pay a lot just for punch cards, and such, just to frame and hang on the wall. He has a nice set of Telex manuals at the end of the listing which I hope maybe Al Kossow gets for Bitsavers, as an example of how the vintage and old computer stuff he sells is. He is just trying to clear out the end result of a repair and refurb business, he is as far as I know, not one of the gold scrap assassins, but is actually very knowlegable about the systems, etc. I rated my transaction for the tester, and then before that for a 3420 test stunt box to be excellent. BTW, he has a lot of 3420 parts he hasn't listed and may be forced to dump if there are 3420 owners out there. Light bulbs and plastic tubing, and cables and belts don't sell well for curios, they look just about like the ones on fans and cars... Jim Gary Green wrote: > At least if the items are overpriced, and the shipping is actual, or > real > close, you know what you're getting into before you bid. > > I've been looking for an older 1U rack-mount machine. I've found a > number > of units for a reasonable price, considering most of it is 6-8 years > old. > However, the shipping charges are about 2-3 times what they should > be. So, > I wait. :( > > > > > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZredwooddr > > > > > > The usual yada, yada, yada; no interest, no affiliation, etc... > > I bought my 9348 tape drive from him a few years ago. No big problem, > though > the picture in the listing was of another, less banged-up drive. It > arrived, > it works, and the shipping charge was only the actual Fedex cost - no > "packaging and handling" markup that so many eBay sellers like to > apply. > However many of his current items do look severely overpriced to me. > > Tony H. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 11:02:12 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:02:12 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. Message-ID: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ok, so I have a working processor, and a basement full of peripherals. I'm not sure which way to go with the rest of the build. I'm not really up on DEC stuff I admit, so maybe others here can offer me some advice as to what is the best way to proceed. Background: My 11/45 (11/45-CA actually) has the KB11-A processor, no FP. It's the older style with the power distribution board on the back wall of the cpu cabinet rather than on top. However, it's also got the newer 861A power control in the bottom rather than the dual 860's in the top. There is the two H742A's as well. I have one system unit installed - MF-11L in which is installed 8K of core. In the cpu backplane there are three unibus slots which I believe will take three quad? (C-F) boards. A&B in two of those slots are used for the unibus A to unibus B jumper, and A&B of the last slot is the connector to A&B of the MF-11L. The MF-11L has a 9312 in the last A&B slot. The SPC? boards currently installed are two DL11's and a M7228. The ONLY board in slot one is a 930C terminator in A&B. I have no MMU, so slot 13 is empty and slot 14 has the M8116. Separately, I have a lot of peripherals to choose from. Scads of RL02's, DSD440, LincTape II, RX01's, RX02's, RA81's, etc. I also have a BA11-KU with a DD11-DK backplane in it. Problem: The unibus space on the cpu backplane is quite limited. At the VERY least I have to keep one of the DL11's there, so that leaves me with two more unibus slots for peripherals. I *THINK* that that standard controller for an RX02 or RL02 takes all 6 rows (Hex cards?). However, the DSD440 controller only takes slots C-F (quad?). The linctape II controller also only takes C-F. So, I think I could have a reasonable system by putting the DSD440 controller, LincTape controller, and a DL11 and be done with it. However, I then am limited to using core memory in the MF11. At the very best, I can get... what... 32K in a MF11? I think I can get the additional core boards. But correct me if I'm wrong but isn't sticking with core (max 32K) going to make my operating system choices extremely limited? I'm guessing I can't run RSTS or Unix on it with that kinda memory. vtserver I think requires a full load of 128KW. On top of it all, the DSD440 takes most of the rack depth, as does an RL02, so I've been advised against mounting anything above the /45 except maybe the linctape. Possible solutions: 1) I just got a M7891 (64KW) off Ebay. I could yank out the MF-11L system unit, yank out the DD11-DK from the spare BA11, and install the DD11 in the cpu cabinet. I'd use the unibus memory M7891, ditch the core, and have a fair number of slots left over in the DD11. However, there's problems with this approach. I'd still be mounting stuff above the /45 (DSD440 & Linctape at the least), and maybe an RL02. In other words, this would fix the memory and unibus slot availability, but I believe I'd still be restricting the airflow/cooling too much :\ Plus I'd need to find some of those rare Mate & Lock connectors to get the DD11 into the /45 cabinet and do some power harness building. I guess I might need one or more regulators for this approach as well. Then I'd have to find/buy a KT11-C to USE the M7891 I think.... I'm probably talking about unobtanium stuff aren't I :| 2) Take another H960 rack, bolt it to the 11/45 rack, and install the entire extra BA11 in there. Now it's a dual bay system, but I could use core still if I wanted, and I think also use the M7891 in the BA11. Then I'd have room in the 2nd rack for the peripherals. However, I'd really like to keep this in a single bay rack :\ I'm sure there's other solutions. Can someone advise me on what is likely to be the best route to go? I don't want this to be a really huge /45 setup. I'd like to run RT11 v5 with TSX+ on it. Temporarily, I'd also like to try loading up RSTS and some form of Unix. Thoughts anyone? Jay West From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 11:35:31 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > > > Oops, sorry, didn't see that. Give me your address then. Make sure you > > have 800 square feet of space in your backyard cleared out. I figure we > > can stack the containers three high side by side. > > > > Expect delivery in about 6 weeks. > > I can take the delivery, empty farmland behind - Let's get started! Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to anyone who thinks they can pull it off: You have 24 hours to unload every last IC and piece of paper in my warehouse. You are allowed one (and only one) helper of your choosing. You must take it all. Shelving is optional. If you are unable to have everything removed from my warehouse by the time the 24 hours is up, you must put everything back where you found it. You will also have to pay for anything you broke. I'm quite serious. Now, who's up for it? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 11:40:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <42CE19C0.4050605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Joe R. wrote: > > Don't take this personally BUT: Why didn't you bid your max bid the > > first time??????? If you had you would have won the item. > > I take this one step further and use a service (esnipe) to snipe all of my > auctions. That way, I bid one price and walk away -- AND, because I bid 10 > seconds before the end of the auction, nobody can see what I'm bidding on until > it's too late. StealthBid usually hits with 3-4 seconds to go ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jul 8 11:53:49 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <200507081653.JAA25060@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> I'm not sure how it works. The 10% number is not even >> close. It is more like 0.5% or so. It does take up slack >> over time. I think it has to do with the stretch of the >> belt. There is more tention on one spool than the other, >> making one side move a little faster than the other. >> The one spool getting the more stretched belt would tend >> to move a little faster than the side without stretch on >> it since it would see more effective belt movement. > >I would think that the faster spindle has a smaller diameter than the >slower one. > Hi The belt drives over the surface of the tape so the tape speed is independent of the spindle speed ( as Tony mentioned ). The smaller spindle would revolve faster but that doesn't explain how it maintains tension. As Tony said, the belt runs over the surface of the tape at both spools. If every thing was equal, the tape would never have any tension on it and any slack would never be taken up. As one knows that has taken one apart, the belt is a little elastic and is stretched on. The place that the belt is stretched the most when moving would need to have a higher surface speed ( kind of like the Bernoulli principle ). This would cause that spool to turn a little faster than it would if the belt were non-elastic. Of course, the end of the belt that is close to the drive would have the most tension and that spool should have a tape speed slightly greater than the other spool until the tension of the tape brought the other spool to the same amount of stretch on the belt. It seems like I remember something about holding some tension on the tape when I was taking up the slack. As I recall, it seemed counter intuitive at the time but thinking about how the belt speed up the take-up spool, it makes sense. Joe, the next time you have to take up slack, maintain a little tension on the feeding spool and you should notice an increase in the rate that the take-up spool pulls the slack in. Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 8 11:56:59 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:56:59 +0000 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line In-Reply-To: <42CE6AC9.nailCT118URJ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> <1120823117.17516.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <42CE6AC9.nailCT118URJ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <1120841819.17498.23.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-08 at 08:00 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > we've got a nice HP polar display that's crying out to have something > > interesting done with it > > Can it be used in "pure" X-Y? Even if it cannot, making an analog > computer that integrates the Lorenz equations and allowing some knobs > to vary the parameters produces really pretty displays. Can't remember if it has an X-Y mode or not. I have a feeling the answer's no... I'll have a look tomorrow though. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 8 11:59:30 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:59:30 +0000 Subject: Xebec S1410 bridge board Message-ID: <1120841970.17516.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Anyone have a later manual than mine, which only covers up to revision E of the firmware? All the actual boards I have are revision F or G, and it'd be nice to know if anything drastic changed in terms of programming... ta Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 11:59:37 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:59:37 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On 7/8/05, Jay West wrote: > Problem: > The unibus space on the cpu backplane is quite limited. At the VERY least I > have to keep one of the DL11's there, so that leaves me with two more unibus > slots for peripherals. I *THINK* that that standard controller for an RX02 > or RL02 takes all 6 rows (Hex cards?). However, the DSD440 controller only > takes slots C-F (quad?). The linctape II controller also only takes C-F. So, > I think I could have a reasonable system by putting the DSD440 controller, > LincTape controller, and a DL11 and be done with it. The RL11 is a hex card. The RX11 is a quad card. I understand wanting to keep to a single rack, but to be honest, back in the day, a single-rack 11/34 was pretty common, but the larger machines tended to have multiple racks, a BA-11 in addition to the CPU, etc. A BA-11K holds up to 3 DD11DK backplanes, *lots* of space. You can also mount RK11D backplanes in there, or an RK611 for RK06/RK07... all commonly done on machines in the 1970s and 1980s. > I'm sure there's other solutions. Can someone advise me on what is likely to > be the best route to go? I don't want this to be a really huge /45 setup. > I'd like to run RT11 v5 with TSX+ on it. Temporarily, I'd also like to try > loading up RSTS and some form of Unix. Thoughts anyone? Hmm... starting from small to large (memory), I'd say that RT-11 v5 should have 32Kw, a bit more for TSX+ to make sense (why try to cram multiple "users" into 32K?), a bit more for RSTS (128K?) and as much memory as the processor can address for most UNIX versions you are likely to want to run. In terms of disk, RT11 can live just fine on floppies, but a disk is nice, even an RL01 or RL02 (5MB or 10MB). Older versions of RSTS are OK on an RL02 or two; newer ones (v9, v10) may not fit on a system with a single RL02. 2.9BSD doesn't really fit in 10MB - you can load it, but there's no room for kernel sources. Not sure about disk requirements for v6, v7, etc., but 10MB might be OK. With leaving the top of the rack empty for cooling (probably not a bad idea in a non-machine-room environment), your options are severely limited. If it were my system, I don't think I'd even consider trying to fit in a single rack, but I have a) empty H960 racks and b) space to set them up. Still... sounds like a cool system. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 8 12:04:36 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:04:36 -0700 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. Message-ID: You will need a KT11-C if you don't have one to adr anything over 60kb. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 12:01:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an > open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a > break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy > and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to > anyone who thinks they can pull it off: > > You have 24 hours to unload every last IC and piece of paper in my > warehouse. You are allowed one (and only one) helper of your choosing. > You must take it all. Shelving is optional. > > If you are unable to have everything removed from my warehouse by the time > the 24 hours is up, you must put everything back where you found it. You > will also have to pay for anything you broke. > > I'm quite serious. > > Now, who's up for it? And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jul 8 12:10:05 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 50 Hz Shugart SA-851s... Message-ID: <200507081710.KAA25084@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Bill When I was helping a friend bring up a MDS800 system, years ago, the only cheap drives we could find were the ones for the 50Hz ( surplus ). We just took a file to the motor spindle and ground it down until is was the right speed. Do note that you need to keep a little crown on the pulley to keep the belt centered. I do think that the belts are slightly different. As I recall we also had to elongate the mounting holes for the motor to keep the belt tight. It may be that the flywheel pulley is slightly different to use the same belt size but I'd think a different belt makes more sense. We didn't have a 60Hz drive to compare to at the time. Dwight >From: "Bill Sudbrink" > >In the process of getting Dave Dunfield a door button for >his Seimens 8 incher, I went through my whole stack of 8 >inch drives and parts. I "found" a couple of SA-851s that, >while the serial number plate says they are 115 volt, 60 Hz, >are in fact built with the 50Hz drive pulley. You can put >them next to a "normal" SA-851 and see that the pulley is a >different size and I just confirmed it by putting a diskette >in one, powering it up, putting a scope on the index signal >and seeing that (on 60 Hz power) it is turning at 432 RPM a >20 percent increase over the 360 rpm it should be turning at. >Other than that little problem, the drives seem to mostly >function, that is, they seek, report track zero, etc. They >appear to have seen very little use (probably because they >don't fully work). Anyway, they weigh a ton (like most 8 >inch drives) but is there anyone within reasonable shipping >charges of Washington, DC that could use them and would want >to work out a trade? Alternatively, it just occurred to me >that maybe I could just exchange pulley wheels with someone? > >Bill S. > > From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 12:09:46 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:09:46 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <42CE19C0.4050605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 7/8/05 2:14 AM, "Jim Leonard" wrote:. > > I take this one step further and use a service (esnipe) to snipe all of my > auctions. That way, I bid one price and walk away -- AND, because I bid 10 > seconds before the end of the auction, nobody can see what I'm bidding on > until > it's too late. I don't rely on snipe services - unless they jack you to your max *instantly* instead of in incriments, nailing your highest at the last minute and having the snipe program check and raise and check and raise takes time, and it most likely won't hit your max during that last single minute, heh From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 12:11:23 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:11:23 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/8/05 12:35 PM, "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote: > Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an > open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a > break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy > and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to > anyone who thinks they can pull it off: > > You have 24 hours to unload every last IC and piece of paper in my > warehouse. You are allowed one (and only one) helper of your choosing. > You must take it all. Shelving is optional. > > If you are unable to have everything removed from my warehouse by the time > the 24 hours is up, you must put everything back where you found it. You > will also have to pay for anything you broke. > > I'm quite serious. > > Now, who's up for it? Nonononono! You ship to *us* :) From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jul 8 12:15:41 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 12:15:41 -0500 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708121236.054d6c48@mail> At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ Ah, thank you. I will rub these pictures like cool smooth stones against my temples when I need to reassure myself that "I may think I have a lot of junk, but at least I'm not as crazy as Xxxx." - John From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jul 8 12:17:12 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:17:12 -0400 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <17102.46360.889492.697943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> Hmm... starting from small to large (memory), I'd say that Ethan> RT-11 v5 should have 32Kw, a bit more for TSX+ to make sense Ethan> (why try to cram multiple "users" into 32K?), a bit more for Ethan> RSTS (128K?) and as much memory as the processor can address Ethan> for most UNIX versions you are likely to want to run. RSTS/E would like max memory (124 kW on an 11/45), though less will work -- depending on version; for example V5A runs fine with 48 kW. And RSTS V4 uses 28kW (no MMU support -- no RL support either, though). 32 kW for RT? Wow. Early on it didn't need anywhere near that much; V2-SJ runs perfectly well in 8 kW. DOS (earlier versions anyway) can run in 4 kW. paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jul 8 12:24:24 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708121236.054d6c48@mail> from "John Foust" at Jul 08, 2005 12:15:41 PM Message-ID: <200507081724.j68HOOxh005381@onyx.spiritone.com> > At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > > >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > > Ah, thank you. I will rub these pictures like cool smooth stones > against my temples when I need to reassure myself that > "I may think I have a lot of junk, but at least I'm not as crazy as Xxxx." > > - John Agreed, overall I feel more pity than anything else, though #8 does make me green with envy, I wish I had that much space for my collection of books! Of course things like this remind me that I actually need to put more effort into shrinking my collection. Zane From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 8 12:33:43 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:33:43 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <200507081724.j68HOOxh005381@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200507081741.j68Hfd4m004414@keith.ezwind.net> Truly amazing: when I visited during VCF 6, I asked Sellam where I could a specific Atari 2600 cartridge, and he instantly directed me to a specific box. LOL, of course, I had to use a GPS, snorkeling and rappeling gear, a sledgehammer, and two remote-control reconnaissance planes. Also, I had to hire a Sherpa and perform weeks of high-altitude training first. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 1:24 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Take My Warehouse, Please! > At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > > >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > > Ah, thank you. I will rub these pictures like cool smooth stones > against my temples when I need to reassure myself that "I may think I > have a lot of junk, but at least I'm not as crazy as Xxxx." > > - John Agreed, overall I feel more pity than anything else, though #8 does make me green with envy, I wish I had that much space for my collection of books! Of course things like this remind me that I actually need to put more effort into shrinking my collection. Zane From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 12:28:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > Nonononono! You ship to *us* :) Nonononono! You come and take it away. One helper; 24 hours. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 12:31:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > I don't rely on snipe services - unless they jack you to your max > *instantly* instead of in incriments, nailing your highest at the last > minute and having the snipe program check and raise and check and raise > takes time, and it most likely won't hit your max during that last single > minute, heh If a sniper service works like that then it's foolish and retarded. The main reason I use a sniping service is to manage my bids for me. First of all, for all the obvious reasons, bidding anytime before the imminent end of an eBay auction is pointless. Second, I submit what I'm willing to pay, and the sniper gets my bid in at the last possible reasonable second. If I win, great. If I win for less than what I was willing to pay, even better. If I don't, terrific! I saved my money for a rainy day. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jul 8 12:42:51 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:42:51 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708121236.054d6c48@mail> <200507081724.j68HOOxh005381@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <17102.47899.333128.297928@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >> At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >And here >> are photos so you can see what you're up against: >> > >> >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ Wow. Is that a VT05 in picture 4? paul From javickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Jul 8 12:42:54 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:42:54 +0100 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507081752.j68HpxhR004523@keith.ezwind.net> > > > Nonononono! You ship to *us* :) > > Nonononono! You come and take it away. One helper; 24 hours. > Do you have a fork-lift truck available - or does the challenger have to bring their own? Cheers, Ade. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 06/07/2005 From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 8 12:44:17 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:44:17 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507081752.j68Hq8RQ004528@keith.ezwind.net> Do these services have any kind of monetary buffer built-in? For example, let's say you are willing to pay $100 for something. Your sniping service enters that amount at the last possible second, and you lose to someone whose bid was $101. You'd feel pretty dumb about losing the item because of one dollar. How do you know that winner's bid wasn't $101 maximum? I know that's an easy trap because, in reality, you can keep going back and forth in small increments, and the next thing you know, you've bid $120, which is really more than you allotted for the item. Still, though, it's a legitimate problem with sniping services as I understand them -- you have no chance at all to say "okay, I'll bid just a little bit more." -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 1:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > I don't rely on snipe services - unless they jack you to your max > *instantly* instead of in incriments, nailing your highest at the last > minute and having the snipe program check and raise and check and > raise takes time, and it most likely won't hit your max during that > last single minute, heh If a sniper service works like that then it's foolish and retarded. The main reason I use a sniping service is to manage my bids for me. First of all, for all the obvious reasons, bidding anytime before the imminent end of an eBay auction is pointless. Second, I submit what I'm willing to pay, and the sniper gets my bid in at the last possible reasonable second. If I win, great. If I win for less than what I was willing to pay, even better. If I don't, terrific! I saved my money for a rainy day. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From computer at officereach.net Fri Jul 8 12:56:09 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:56:09 -0700 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <17102.47899.333128.297928@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708121236.054d6c48@mail> <200507081724.j68HOOxh005381@onyx.spiritone.com> <17102.47899.333128.297928@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Paul Koning! Paul Koning! There's a name that I recognize! Paul! Has anyone checked out cyber1.org, which is Paul's reanimation of the old CDC Plato Network; amazingly cool stuff. Amazing. You've got to check it out - Paul is seriously such an inspiration. Contrary to my wife's ideas about his project, I think it's pretty damn cool! -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:42:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Take My Warehouse, Please! > > >> At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >And here > >> are photos so you can see what you're up against: > >> > > >> >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > > Wow. > > Is that a VT05 in picture 4? > > paul > From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 12:49:31 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: <200507081752.j68HpxhR004523@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Ade Vickers wrote: > > > > > Nonononono! You ship to *us* :) > > > > Nonononono! You come and take it away. One helper; 24 hours. > > > > Do you have a fork-lift truck available - or does the challenger have to > bring their own? You can rent mine for $1,000/hr ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jul 8 12:54:03 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 12:54:03 -0500 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <200507081741.j68Hfd4m004414@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507081724.j68HOOxh005381@onyx.spiritone.com> <200507081741.j68Hfd4m004414@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708125209.055a6a50@mail> At 12:33 PM 7/8/2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >LOL, of course, I had to use a GPS, snorkeling and rappeling gear, a >sledgehammer, and two remote-control reconnaissance planes. Also, I had to >hire a Sherpa and perform weeks of high-altitude training first. But the sickness inside me looks at all the wasted space... Why, with those high ceilings, he could put in almost an entire second level, if not a floor then various types of cargo nets and around-the-wall upper-level shelving to consume even more space. - John From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 12:54:07 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <200507081752.j68Hq8RQ004528@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Do these services have any kind of monetary buffer built-in? For example, > let's say you are willing to pay $100 for something. Your sniping service > enters that amount at the last possible second, and you lose to someone > whose bid was $101. You'd feel pretty dumb about losing the item because of > one dollar. Why should I feel dumb? I already thought about what I was willing to pay at a maximum, so if someone gets it for $1 more than me then more power to them. And in 99 times out of 100, if someone does get it for $1 more than you, they probably put in a bid that is several dollars more than what your maximum was. So even if you did bid $2 more, their max will still be larger than yours. And this also negates the point of the sniping service and starts to get into the silly psychological games that drive up prices well beyond what's reasonable and sane. How do you know that winner's bid wasn't $101 maximum? I know > that's an easy trap because, in reality, you can keep going back and forth > in small increments, and the next thing you know, you've bid $120, which is > really more than you allotted for the item. Still, though, it's a > legitimate problem with sniping services as I understand them -- you have no > chance at all to say "okay, I'll bid just a little bit more." Again, you don't want to bid "just a little more". You set your maximum and you are content whatever the outcome. If not, well, you have problems. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 12:54:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <17102.47899.333128.297928@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > >> At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >And here > >> are photos so you can see what you're up against: > >> > > >> >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > > Wow. > > Is that a VT05 in picture 4? Yes. Ok, stop downloading now, please. You're killing my server ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jul 8 13:13:36 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507081814.OAA17800@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > First of all, for all the obvious reasons, bidding anytime before the > imminent end of an eBay auction is pointless. Hm. The reasons you refer to certainly aren't obvious to me. Is that just an artifact of my inexperience with ebay, or am I missing something more obvious? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Jul 8 13:06:54 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:06:54 -0400 (edt) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jul 8, 05 10:54:47 am Message-ID: <200507081806.OAA05298@wordstock.com> And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake: > > On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >And here > > >> are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > >> > > > >> >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > > > > Wow. > > > > Is that a VT05 in picture 4? > > Yes. > > Ok, stop downloading now, please. You're killing my server ;) > Hmm.... I am sure the fine people at SlashDot would love to view your warehouse! Cheers, Bryan From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jul 8 13:21:12 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 14:21:12 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <200507081806.OAA05298@wordstock.com> References: <200507081806.OAA05298@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <42CEC418.3030807@atarimuseum.com> Is this Sellam's warehouse or Weirdstuff.... damn dude, I thought I had a lot of stuff, wow!!! You are just outright scary!!! So what time can I show up to pick it all up ;-) Curt Bryan Pope wrote: >And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake: > > >>On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >> >>> >> At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >And here >>> >> are photos so you can see what you're up against: >>> >> > >>> >> >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ >>> >>>Wow. >>> >>>Is that a VT05 in picture 4? >>> >>> >>Yes. >> >>Ok, stop downloading now, please. You're killing my server ;) >> >> >> > >Hmm.... I am sure the fine people at SlashDot would love to view your >warehouse! > >Cheers, > >Bryan > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 7/6/2005 From computer at officereach.net Fri Jul 8 13:30:35 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 11:30:35 -0700 Subject: FREE MACINTOSH PLUS. In-Reply-To: <200507081814.OAA17800@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200507081814.OAA17800@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: I have the following Hardware that would love to find itself a good home. Hardware: Machintosh Macintosh Plus Macintosh Keyboard Macintosh Mouse serial number F847HHMM0001A (have no idea what this means) ...and... CMS External Hard Disk Drive F00590 3D30U Serial number 1034213 Send me an address, and I'll let you know cost of mailing via UPS or USPS or something. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 13:23:01 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:23:01 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <17102.46360.889492.697943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <17102.46360.889492.697943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 7/8/05, Paul Koning wrote: > 32 kW for RT? Wow. Early on it didn't need anywhere near that much; > V2-SJ runs perfectly well in 8 kW. Sure... early versions. Jay did say v5. Now... even v5 SJ will run in a lot less than 32kW, but the applications I remember running (and writing) wanted the full 16-bits of memory (minus the I/O page, of course). You can probably play around fine in 16kW. The memory isn't just for the OS... you need some space for the apps (compilers, games, whatever). -ethan From Tim at Rikers.org Fri Jul 8 13:56:56 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 12:56:56 -0600 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CECC78.8020507@Rikers.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Ok, stop downloading now, please. You're killing my server ;) Mirrored here (in gallery with slideshow, etc): http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware-sellam Sellam: holler if you want me to take 'em down. or, register on the gallery and I'll let you add comments and more pictures. ;-) -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jul 8 13:59:32 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:59:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: The scary thing is that I have seen a team of two guys actually clean up a warehouse pile like that in 24 hours. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jul 8 14:08:06 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:08:06 -0400 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <17102.46360.889492.697943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17102.53014.517275.983555@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> On 7/8/05, Paul Koning wrote: >> 32 kW for RT? Wow. Early on it didn't need anywhere near that >> much; V2-SJ runs perfectly well in 8 kW. Ethan> Sure... early versions. Jay did say v5. Now... even v5 SJ Ethan> will run in a lot less than 32kW, but the applications I Ethan> remember running (and writing) wanted the full 16-bits of Ethan> memory (minus the I/O page, of course). You can probably play Ethan> around fine in 16kW. Ethan> The memory isn't just for the OS... you need some space for Ethan> the apps (compilers, games, whatever). True. But I did assemblies, Fortran, TECO, Basic all in an 8 kW machine, with RT V2-SJ. paul From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 8 14:14:23 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:14:23 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507081922.j68JMt0O005572@keith.ezwind.net> I do think it's possible. Highly improbable, but possible. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:00 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: The scary thing is that I have seen a team of two guys actually clean up a warehouse pile like that in 24 hours. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From computer at officereach.net Fri Jul 8 14:25:58 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 12:25:58 -0700 Subject: Take My Wife, Please! (was Re: Will trade for warehouse) In-Reply-To: <200507081922.j68JMt0O005572@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507081922.j68JMt0O005572@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Heh. -----Original Message----- From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:14:23 -0400 Subject: RE: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) > I do think it's possible. Highly improbable, but possible. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:00 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber > on HP > 9825 tape drive) > > > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > The scary thing is that I have seen a team of two guys actually clean > up a > warehouse pile like that in 24 hours. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 8 14:28:57 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:28:57 -0400 Subject: 50 Hz Shugart SA-851s... In-Reply-To: <200507081710.KAA25084@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > Hi Bill > When I was helping a friend bring up a MDS800 system, > years ago, the only cheap drives we could find were > the ones for the 50Hz ( surplus ). > We just took a file to the motor spindle and ground > it down until is was the right speed. Do note that you > need to keep a little crown on the pulley to keep > the belt centered. Thanks for the advice but I have about ten more spare SA-851s, five or six 850s, five or six 801s and a dozen or so Seimens. I was actually looking for someone who might be in need of 50Hz operation. Is there anyplace in North America that runs 50Hz? BTW, it's actually the motor side pulley that is different. The flywheel seems to be the same size. Bill S. From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Jul 8 14:21:08 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:21:08 -0400 (edt) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jul 8, 05 02:59:32 pm Message-ID: <200507081921.PAA21921@wordstock.com> And thusly William Donzelli spake: > > > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > The scary thing is that I have seen a team of two guys actually clean up a > warehouse pile like that in 24 hours. > I have seen this too - not the warehouse cleanup part, but two guys who could easily make a serious dent in his pile.. Stuff that I used a hand truck to move, they carried it like it was styrofoam (boxes that each contained about a dozen 1541's)! Cheers, Bryan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jul 8 14:30:54 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <200507081930.MAA25133@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >> > I'm not sure how it works. The 10% number is not even >> > close. It is more like 0.5% or so. It does take up slack >> > over time. I think it has to do with the stretch of the >> > belt. There is more tention on one spool than the other, >> > making one side move a little faster than the other. >> > The one spool getting the more stretched belt would tend >> > to move a little faster than the side without stretch on >> > it since it would see more effective belt movement. >> >> I would think that the faster spindle has a smaller diameter than the >> slower one. > >Yes, but remember the belt drives the outide of the tape on the 2 spools. >Yes, the smaller spindle will turn quicker (more revs per second), but >to tension the tape you need to move the tape faster (more inches per >second) on the takeup side. And I still don't see why this happens. > >-tony > Hi Tony I'm proposing an experiment for you since I know that you are the type that would actually try it. Get two pulley or spools ( like from thread ) that are the same diameter. Place these on shafts that give you a few inches between outer edges. Get a rubber band that is large enough to go around the two spools, with some tension. Mark the spools with an arrow so that you can see how fast each rotates. For convenience, spools should be left and right. Now place a little drag on the left spool while pulling the rubber band from the lower span of the rubber band, towards the left. This would correspond to how the tapes are in the cassette. Although, the spools are the same size, I've only done this so that the surface speeds of the spools would match if a rigid belt were used, similar to the tape surfaces. As you pull the rubber band, you'll notice that the right spool rotates noticeably faster than the left spool, even though the rubber band is not slipping on the left spool. This demonstrates the principle of the way the cassette works ( or at least should ). I do hope you try it. Dwight From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jul 8 14:33:47 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:33:47 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708121236.054d6c48@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708121236.054d6c48@mail> Message-ID: <42CED51B.70902@atarimuseum.com> If you gotta be THAT crazy, at least Sellam is doing it in style! ;-) Curt John Foust wrote: >At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >>And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: >> >>http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ >> >> > >Ah, thank you. I will rub these pictures like cool smooth stones >against my temples when I need to reassure myself that >"I may think I have a lot of junk, but at least I'm not as crazy as Xxxx." > >- John > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 7/6/2005 From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 8 14:34:45 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:34:45 +0100 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c583f4$19e5da00$c901a8c0@flexpc> >I don't rely on snipe services - unless they jack >you to your max *instantly* instead of in incriments, >nailing your highest at the last minute and having >the snipe program check and raise and check and raise >takes time, and it most likely won't hit your max >during that last single minute, heh By definition sniping is bidding at the very last minute - i.e. so close to the end of the auction that noone else gets to reply after seeing your bid. So you must bid your maximum as, almost by definition, you'll not get another chance. The advantages of sniping are its "fire and forget" nature (which saves time, no need to follow the auction) and the lack of emotion (you won't be tempted to try bidding a few extra pennies "just in case he's only just beaten my bid"). A third advantage is that you won't have your bid nibbled up towards your max by newbies who like to bid in minimum increments. If you like the emotional side of things, then you need to place your own bids. Personally I almost always use a sniping program, unless I see something crop up that I want when I'm away from my machine. In that case, I bid near the end and take my chances. Antonio From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 8 14:37:45 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:37:45 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <42CECC78.8020507@Rikers.org> Message-ID: Hmmm... Where are the ones you play with? It's a shame to have that many toys and not play with them. If I had that kind of space I'd keep a corner clear with a couple of big tables and lots of available power so I could haul stuff over to the "play area" and run it now and then. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 8 14:39:24 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:39:24 +0100 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <200507081752.j68Hq8RQ004528@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <000101c583f4$c0109be0$c901a8c0@flexpc> >Do these services have any kind of monetary buffer >built-in? For example, let's say you are willing >to pay $100 for something. Your sniping service enters >that amount at the last possible second, and you lose >to someone whose bid was $101. I have a feeling I need to point you at my auctions :-) If you were only willing to bid $100, why are you now willing to bid $102? I can understand that in a live auction room you can get carried away, but with an online auction you usually have plenty of time to see how often the "L@@K RARE" stuff crops up and what it usually sells for (allowing for shipping). Then you decide where in the range you want to be and how badly you want it and come up with a number. If you want to you can then ask yourself "but what if he bids $1 more" and increase your bid until you come round :-) Then feed that into the snipe tool. If there was noone willing to go over $50, you get it for $51 and all you lost was some time talking to yourself. If there was someone willing to chat to themselves a little longer than you were, you move on to any of the other five "L@@K RARE" items available in the next 24 hours. Antonio From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 8 14:54:24 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:54:24 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507082002.j68K2sfS006070@keith.ezwind.net> I believe that's called his house. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Sudbrink Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Take My Warehouse, Please! Hmmm... Where are the ones you play with? It's a shame to have that many toys and not play with them. If I had that kind of space I'd keep a corner clear with a couple of big tables and lots of available power so I could haul stuff over to the "play area" and run it now and then. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 14:51:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <42CED51B.70902@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > If you gotta be THAT crazy, at least Sellam is doing it in style! ;-) That's right, baby. All bow to my superior insanity :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 14:56:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Where are the ones you play with? It's a shame to have that > many toys and not play with them. If I had that kind of space > I'd keep a corner clear with a couple of big tables and lots > of available power so I could haul stuff over to the "play area" > and run it now and then. When I really need space I make it. For example, I built the PDP-1 replica in the space at the back near the loading dock. But as with all vacuums, stuff found a way to fill it back in. A more permanent arrangement that includes ample play space is in the works. What are you seeing now is the mess that still remains from my last move. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jul 8 15:10:44 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:10:44 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050708160416.03bb1a28@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > You have 24 hours to unload every last IC and piece of paper in my > > warehouse. You are allowed one (and only one) helper of your choosing. > > You must take it all. Shelving is optional. > > > > If you are unable to have everything removed from my warehouse by the time > > the 24 hours is up, you must put everything back where you found it. You > > will also have to pay for anything you broke. > > > > I'm quite serious. > > > > Now, who's up for it? I've been exercising as of late... Lost 5 lbs so far, and lowered my blood pressure 15 points. (and now once in a great while, if my wife feels my forearms, I might get a little... ummm... happyness, too!) That said, I'd not be up to it, but gimme a year (and a forklift, and my dad's 18-wheeler, and... and... and... and I'm still dreaming!!! ;-) ) >And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ Thanks for those! Now my cow-orkers don't think I'm *nearly* as crazy as they used to think... and it explains why you never found that Amiga keyboard... ;-) [[ Still battling a couple of Dragons at the edge of the world, but at least I'm not dangling by 1 hand anymore... ;-) ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 8 15:11:25 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:11:25 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" References: Message-ID: <005e01c583f9$3821c600$5b7da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 1:54 PM Subject: RE: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" > Again, you don't want to bid "just a little more". You set your maximum > and you are content whatever the outcome. If not, well, you have > problems. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival I tend to make my highest bid something like $10.04 for example so somebody would have to hit the next did increment $.50 or whatever to outbid me. If I bid $10 and somebody won it for $10.01 I would feel silly, let them pay $10.50. Generally if I get outbid its by a large amount anyway, since I am cheep and look for good deals and not for average prices on ebay. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jul 8 15:11:12 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:11:12 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CEDDE0.9060000@atarimuseum.com> >All bow to my superior insanity > > Wait!!!! I love that, I think I'm gonna make that my signature! :-) Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 7/6/2005 From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 8 15:16:47 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:16:47 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) References: Message-ID: <008101c583f9$f7f6f720$5b7da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 2:59 PM Subject: Re: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) > > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > The scary thing is that I have seen a team of two guys actually clean up a > warehouse pile like that in 24 hours. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > I would assume its easy if you are just throwing the contents into a few trash bins out back. Moving the contents in an organized fashion without breaking anything would be a bit impossible (hence the bet, and the break it you bought it clause). From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Jul 8 15:21:53 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:21:53 -0500 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) References: Message-ID: <015e01c583fa$afe0dfe0$54406b43@66067007> I would love to have that warehouse space right now and to have the book collection out like you have it would be great!!! Had someone break into one of my trailers (4-45 footers on lease) and they tossed books and computer items all over the ground around the trailer. A warehouse would be better. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 12:01 PM Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) > On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an >> open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a >> break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy >> and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to >> anyone who thinks they can pull it off: >> >> You have 24 hours to unload every last IC and piece of paper in my >> warehouse. You are allowed one (and only one) helper of your choosing. >> You must take it all. Shelving is optional. >> >> If you are unable to have everything removed from my warehouse by the >> time >> the 24 hours is up, you must put everything back where you found it. You >> will also have to pay for anything you broke. >> >> I'm quite serious. >> >> Now, who's up for it? > > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jul 8 16:49:23 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:49:23 -0500 Subject: New addition to the family. Message-ID: <200507081649.23967.pat@computer-refuge.org> I realize that it's a couple years shy of the 10-year rule, but I figure that the "coolness" factor of the machine makes up for it. So, I moved my new Gen 5 S/390 into my garage (and my non-working Gen3 out...long story) last night. Pics and details of the find: http://www.computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/s390/ All I can say it "w00t"! :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 8 16:50:06 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050708143803.E88038@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Hmmm... > Where are the ones you play with? In the "BIG ROOM". The pictures of what Sellam is offering must be one of the smallest of his warehouses. He's obviously trying to do everyone a favor, and only offering what COULD BE moved in 24 hours. Where are the printers? ...the piles of extra disk drives? ... the wall of 5150s? ... the rest of the monitors? ... the wall of Macintoshes? I'm sure that he has a lot more Apple ][s than are in #6. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 17:04:36 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:04:36 -0500 Subject: HP 7980SR option question? Message-ID: <007d01c58409$08178b60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I've located a 7980SR in excellent condition. I do recall my days of selling HP that the S meant SCSI and the R meant refurbished. However, this one has a tag stating it includes options -100 and -200. I do not have sufficient memory to know what those options were, and I don't believe I have my HP config/sales guides from that era :\ Does anyone know what options -100 and -200 are for the 7980S drives? If one of them is 800bpi option, I'm gonna snag the thing! (otherwise I'll pass). Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 17:06:15 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:06:15 -0500 Subject: DEC RDxx drives (compatability)? Message-ID: <008101c58409$42a2e130$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I came across a large pile of Micropolis 1558 ESDI drives today. No clue what the owner wants for them. I was wondering if these might be compatible with an 11/23's RQDX3 controller? Jay From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 8 17:10:39 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:10:39 -0500 Subject: New addition to the family. In-Reply-To: <200507081649.23967.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050708170913.0a824d20@mail.ubanproductions.com> Cool stuff Pat! How much power does that baby draw? Did it come with and disk drives? Will we be seeing that at VCF Midwest 1.0? --tom At 04:49 PM 7/8/2005 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >I realize that it's a couple years shy of the 10-year rule, but I figure >that the "coolness" factor of the machine makes up for it. > >So, I moved my new Gen 5 S/390 into my garage (and my non-working Gen3 >out...long story) last night. > >Pics and details of the find: > >http://www.computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/s390/ > >All I can say it "w00t"! :) > >Pat >-- >Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 17:10:58 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:10:58 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <008601c58409$ebbecf90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ethan wrote.... > I understand wanting to keep to a single rack, but to be honest, back > in the day, a single-rack 11/34 was pretty common, but the larger > machines tended to have multiple racks, a BA-11 in addition to the > CPU, etc. A BA-11K holds up to 3 DD11DK backplanes, *lots* of space. > You can also mount RK11D backplanes in there, or an RK611 for > RK06/RK07... all commonly done on machines in the 1970s and 1980s. I only have one RK05, and it's destined for my PDP-8E, and I'm unlikely to ever find more. Many list members have scads of them, but to me RK05's are pretty much unobtanium in my area. > In terms of disk, RT11 can live just fine on floppies, but a disk is > nice, even an RL01 or RL02 (5MB or 10MB). Older versions of RSTS are > OK on an RL02 or two; newer ones (v9, v10) may not fit on a system > with a single RL02. 2.9BSD doesn't really fit in 10MB - you can load > it, but there's no room for kernel sources. Not sure about disk > requirements for v6, v7, etc., but 10MB might be OK. I'll go with either an RL02 or RA81. > With leaving the top of the rack empty for cooling (probably not a bad > idea in a non-machine-room environment), your options are severely > limited. If it were my system, I don't think I'd even consider trying > to fit in a single rack, but I have a) empty H960 racks and b) space > to set them up. I have two other H960 racks, guess I'll have to add one to the /45 and make it a dual bay system. The other H960 will probably go to the 11/34 restoration. Thanks for the input! Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 17:12:22 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:12:22 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. References: Message-ID: <008d01c5840a$1d5f4750$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Al wrote.. > You will need a KT11-C if you don't have one to adr anything over 60kb. Yeah, I'm aware of that... I think I mentioned it in my previous post. I seem to recall M8107 and M8108 or somesuch. I *THINK* I've located those, but they are gonna cost a decent chunk of change. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 17:14:11 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:14:11 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <17102.46360.889492.697943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <009601c5840a$5ebed030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Paul wrote... > 32 kW for RT? Wow. Early on it didn't need anywhere near that much; > V2-SJ runs perfectly well in 8 kW. I am not sure if TSX+ will run on the SJ monitor... don't recall. But I do know it's memory requirement was higher than 8K. I'll have to go look that up in my TSX+ manuals :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 17:17:43 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:17:43 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><17102.46360.889492.697943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17102.53014.517275.983555@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <00a901c5840a$dcfd89f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ok, so the obvious question is... If I add a 2nd bay..... 1) How unobtanium are the parts necessary to bolt the two H960 racks together? 2) Can the MF11-L be present in the machine along with the M7891 in the BA11 (in the 2nd rack)? Can both the core and the semiconductor be used at the same time? Or do I need to pull the core boards out of the MF11 to use the M7891 in the BA11? Jay From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jul 8 17:25:23 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:25:23 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:01:16 PDT." Message-ID: <200507082225.j68MPNNa011614@mwave.heeltoe.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ I was actually pondering it until I noticed the coin-op cabinet on *top* tier of the warehouse shelving :-) It's more than even I could do. At least a week!!! -brad From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 8 17:32:58 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:32:58 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <008601c58409$ebbecf90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050708172331.022bdec0@mail.ubanproductions.com> >>In terms of disk, RT11 can live just fine on floppies, but a disk is >>nice, even an RL01 or RL02 (5MB or 10MB). Older versions of RSTS are >>OK on an RL02 or two; newer ones (v9, v10) may not fit on a system >>with a single RL02. 2.9BSD doesn't really fit in 10MB - you can load >>it, but there's no room for kernel sources. Not sure about disk >>requirements for v6, v7, etc., but 10MB might be OK. >I'll go with either an RL02 or RA81. You can fit v6 onto a single RK05 with just barely enough room for the kernel source and enough space to compile it. It is tight but doable. In order to run most Unix varieties, you will likely need a KW11 (M787) line frequency clock, a full box of memory, the memory management (as noted by Al), etc. The later BSD releases require a rather large amount of disk space, depending on what all you install. They also become pretty slow on the machines which do not support more than 128KW of memory. >>With leaving the top of the rack empty for cooling (probably not a bad >>idea in a non-machine-room environment), your options are severely >>limited. If it were my system, I don't think I'd even consider trying >>to fit in a single rack, but I have a) empty H960 racks and b) space >>to set them up. >I have two other H960 racks, guess I'll have to add one to the /45 and >make it a dual bay system. The other H960 will probably go to the 11/34 >restoration. As long as you leave enough room for air to enter the top of the BA11-F, you should be able to mount peripherals above the CPU bay. You will likely need to leave the back, sides, or front panels off in order to allow a space for the air to enter. DEC specified that no peripherals should be mounted above the CPU because with the sides, back, and front panels in place, there isn't enough remaining space to channel cooling air when a full size (e.g. RK05) box is mounted in the space above. If you do mount a peripheral above the CPU, be sure to space it up enough (perhaps 6") to allow room for air to enter... It won't be as neatly dressed as with the sides/back/etcetera on the rack, but it takes up half the space. --tom From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jul 8 17:32:17 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:32:17 -0400 Subject: DEC RDxx drives (compatability)? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:06:15 CDT." <008101c58409$42a2e130$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200507082232.j68MWHMi013983@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: >I came across a large pile of Micropolis 1558 ESDI drives today. No clue >what the owner wants for them. I was wondering if these might be compatible >with an 11/23's RQDX3 controller? nope. RQDX3 is MFM. Think ST-225. You'd need an ESDI controller for those. (and if anyone has one for qbus they don't need, let me know! :-) -brad From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 8 17:37:02 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:37:02 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <00a901c5840a$dcfd89f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <17102.46360.889492.697943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17102.53014.517275.983555@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050708173355.0a8d0ec0@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 05:17 PM 7/8/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Ok, so the obvious question is... > >If I add a 2nd bay..... > >1) How unobtanium are the parts necessary to bolt the two H960 racks together? Just a few regular bolts, nothing special. >2) Can the MF11-L be present in the machine along with the M7891 in the >BA11 (in the 2nd rack)? Can both the core and the semiconductor be used at >the same time? Or do I need to pull the core boards out of the MF11 to use >the M7891 in the BA11? You are better off placing the memory as close to the CPU as possible. You should be able to jumper the memories to work together. There is no reason that I know of that you cannot use a mixture of core and MOS memory. Of course MOS memory requires considerably less power to run, but doesn't retain its memory when power is lost (unless it is the battery backed variety). --tom From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jul 8 17:36:10 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:36:10 -0400 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:10:58 CDT." <008601c58409$ebbecf90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200507082236.j68MaAoa014287@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: >I'll go with either an RL02 or RA81. My advise would be to start with the RL11 controller since it's only 1 card. The UDA-50 is 2 cards and the cabling can be a pain. Plus, if you've got a bunch of RL02's around you can probably boot RT11 or XXDP right off the bat from a cart you already have. When I started my 11/34a hacking I used vtserver to load up a test RL02 cart with RT11. It was simple and worked great. It took 2-3 hours to load but I was not in a hurry. Now days I use 9-track since I have a SCSI drive I can make takes using my linux boxes. -brad From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 17:41:03 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:41:03 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <008601c58409$ebbecf90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <008601c58409$ebbecf90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On 7/8/05, Jay West wrote: > I only have one RK05, and it's destined for my PDP-8E, and I'm unlikely to > ever find more. Many list members have scads of them, but to me RK05's are > pretty much unobtanium in my area. I have a few drives and a few controllers (Unibus, Qbus, OMNIBUS), but I realize that they aren't easy to find anymore. Years ago, they were available in stacks for the hauling, but like most stuff, they are rarer now. > I'll go with either an RL02 or RA81. That limits you in terms of UNIX - smaller Unices don't have MSCP support (not even unpatched 2.9BSD), and newer ones need lots of core (1MB?) UNIX from the early 1980s should fit on an RL02 as long as it's a new enough version for RL support (not an impossible requirement). With v5 RT11 or semi-recent versions of RSTS, you'll be able to use your RA81 or your RL02. I find RT-11 on an RL02 is a really nice fit. I did a contract in the late 1980s on an 11/23 w/RL01 for OS/application development and the RL02 was solely to hold an 8MB data file. Plenty of room. > Thanks for the input! You bet. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 17:45:48 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:45:48 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <00a901c5840a$dcfd89f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <17102.46360.889492.697943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17102.53014.517275.983555@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <00a901c5840a$dcfd89f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On 7/8/05, Jay West wrote: > Ok, so the obvious question is... > > If I add a 2nd bay..... > > 1) How unobtanium are the parts necessary to bolt the two H960 racks > together? I don't remember ever afixing H960s together - just cranking down the feet so they didn't move. Newer racks (like the 42" corporate-style cabs) _did_ have panels to lock racks together, but I think that was a new thing in the early 1980s. > 2) Can the MF11-L be present in the machine along with the M7891 in the BA11 > (in the 2nd rack)? Can both the core and the semiconductor be used at the > same time? Or do I need to pull the core boards out of the MF11 to use the > M7891 in the BA11? Ooh... can't help with something that processor specific, sorry. If I had to guess, it'd be easier to have one or the other, not both. In the case of semi-modern OSes, I wouldn't worry about core - it's really nice when you are loading things from papertape and when you are toggling bootstraps, but when you can press a switch to load fresh from the boot disk, the non-volatility of core is less important. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 17:58:01 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:58:01 -0500 Subject: DEC RDxx drives (compatability)? In-Reply-To: <200507082232.j68MWHMi013983@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <008101c58409$42a2e130$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200507082232.j68MWHMi013983@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 7/8/05, Brad Parker wrote: > nope. RQDX3 is MFM. Think ST-225. or ST-251 - 40MB is quite a bit for some applications. -ethan From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jul 8 18:02:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:02:58 -0500 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050708180258.344aaf59.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > > > > > > Oops, sorry, didn't see that. Give me your address then. Make > > > sure you have 800 square feet of space in your backyard cleared > > > out. I figure we can stack the containers three high side by > > > side. > > > > > > Expect delivery in about 6 weeks. > > > > I can take the delivery, empty farmland behind - Let's get started! > > Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had > an open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave > Tony a break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has > the energy and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the > offer, open to anyone who thinks they can pull it off: > > You have 24 hours to unload every last IC and piece of paper in my > warehouse. You are allowed one (and only one) helper of your > choosing. You must take it all. Shelving is optional. > > If you are unable to have everything removed from my warehouse by the > time the 24 hours is up, you must put everything back where you found > it. You will also have to pay for anything you broke. > > I'm quite serious. > > Now, who's up for it? > Be careful, there may be a gold recycler lurking. Those sorts could probably fit it all in TWO containers. And pack it all in VERY fast. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jul 8 18:03:04 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC RDxx drives (compatability)? In-Reply-To: <008101c58409$42a2e130$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jul 08, 2005 05:06:15 PM Message-ID: <200507082303.j68N34cB020453@onyx.spiritone.com> > I came across a large pile of Micropolis 1558 ESDI drives today. No clue > what the owner wants for them. I was wondering if these might be compatible > with an 11/23's RQDX3 controller? > > Jay > The RQDX3 is a MFM controller, so they won't work. However, if you get ahold of something like a WQESD/04, then you'll have something much better than the RQDX3 ever was (though you might want to keep it installed to drive a floppy). Zane From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jul 8 18:08:09 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:08:09 -0500 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) In-Reply-To: <008101c583f9$f7f6f720$5b7da418@game> References: <008101c583f9$f7f6f720$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: <20050708180809.44ad42cb.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:16:47 -0400 "Teo Zenios" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Donzelli" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 2:59 PM > Subject: Re: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber > on HP 9825 tape drive) > > > > > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > > > The scary thing is that I have seen a team of two guys actually > > clean up a warehouse pile like that in 24 hours. > > > > William Donzelli > > aw288 at osfn.org > > > > I would assume its easy if you are just throwing the contents into a > few trash bins out back. Moving the contents in an organized fashion > without breaking anything would be a bit impossible (hence the bet, > and the break it you bought it clause). > The roughnecks wouldn't care if they broke it. The rules were that they just had to have it all out by the time limit. heh It's dangerous to post this kind of challange. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jul 8 18:08:18 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:08:18 -0500 Subject: New addition to the family. In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050708170913.0a824d20@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050708170913.0a824d20@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <200507081808.18499.pat@computer-refuge.org> Tom Uban declared on Friday 08 July 2005 05:10 pm: > Cool stuff Pat! > > How much power does that baby draw? When I measured it, about 4A of 240V single phase. I didn't measure it when it was fully up, but it probably doesn't draw more than another couple amps when running. > Did it come with and disk drives? No, but if I decide to get it running something besides Linux, I've got an IBM 9343 with 12GB (IIRC) of disk space, which came with the ES/9000 I got a few months ago from St. Louis. > Will we be seeing that at VCF Midwest 1.0? Unfortunately, probably not... the machine requires at least 200V, and I dont think i'll have much luck convincing people to help me move it again unless I buy/rent a forklift or lift-gate for my truck... I will have *something* interesting there, though. I just need to figure out what that'll be. Pat > At 04:49 PM 7/8/2005 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >I realize that it's a couple years shy of the 10-year rule, but I > > figure that the "coolness" factor of the machine makes up for it. > > > >So, I moved my new Gen 5 S/390 into my garage (and my non-working > > Gen3 out...long story) last night. > > > >Pics and details of the find: > > > >http://www.computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/s390/ > > > >All I can say it "w00t"! :) > > > >Pat > >-- > >Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 8 18:14:51 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 7980SR option question? Message-ID: <20050708231451.B250817D477@bitsavers.org> the 800bpi option is option "-800" From florit at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 18:20:51 2005 From: florit at gmail.com (Louis Florit) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 19:20:51 -0400 Subject: Latindata computers? Message-ID: <46e70d0505070816202cb5387a@mail.gmail.com> This is a shot in the dark, but I figure here is a good place to start. In the 1983-1985 time frame, my father had an accounting firm in Argentina, Buenos Aires. He had bought an Osborne 1 and got it hooked up to an old black and white tv that had been converted to monitor usage, and used it for processing invoices. I learned how to play with CP/M and some Basic programming in the evenings when I was 10-12 years old with that Osborne. After a while, he acquired a second computer to offload some of the printing tasks (no printer buffer back then, which would cause the computer to wait a long time while printing hundreds of invoices- he did get a printer buffer at some point to speed things up). I played with this other computer for a bit; 12" green screen, and I recall it being called a Latindata. I am sure the Osborne 1 programs did not run on it, but *I believe* it ran some version of CP/M. I remember modifying a config file for a game called 'Viborita' [little snake in spanish] and changing the sprite characters for the items in the game. Viborita is your typical snake eating asterisk objects while steering the snake around without eating itself or hitting a wall. Has anyone heard of the Latindata brand and have any history on it/them? I'm curious to find out a bit more of them. Old-computers.com doesn't seem to have any entries on it. Kind regards, Louis -- Louis Florit AIM: lflorit MSN:louis_florit at hotmail.com Y!: indygolunaria From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 17:45:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:45:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050707215548.06c8346a.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jul 7, 5 09:55:48 pm Message-ID: > Figuring out alien unmarked and complex resistor networks is a nerds > treat. It's a mathematical puzzle in physical form. I am not sure exactly what a 'nerd' is, but on the grounds that I enjoyed working this out, I guess it makes me one. [If you assume that all resistors are pin-to-pin, with no internal junctions, which seems to he good for the HP DIP networks, then you can deduce the resistors and connections by : 1) Measuring the resistance from each pin to all the other pins shorted togetner 2) Shorting all but 2 of the pins together (and call that 'ground'), then apply a known voltage to one of the leftover pins and measure the votlage on the other odd pin. Calculate the voltage division ratio. The first gives you the effective resistance of all the resistors to a given pin connected in parallel. The second gives you the ratio of one of the resistors to all the others in parallel. From that you can calculate that resistor.) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 17:47:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:47:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <42CE0F76.1030703@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jul 7, 5 10:30:30 pm Message-ID: > > Also, use the MOS memory from the 11/34 to boot. > > -- > > Doesn't this require a DD11 backplane with Modified Unibus Device (MUD) > slots? Yes, but if you don't have one, it's not hard to wire-wrap. I did this before I even knew what a MUD device was... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 17:49:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:49:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: 50 Hz Shugart SA-851s... In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Jul 8, 5 06:14:03 am Message-ID: > to work out a trade? Alternatively, it just occurred to me > that maybe I could just exchange pulley wheels with someone? Or skim them down a bit in a lathe. Remember the pulley should be slightly barrel-shaped (or the belt will fly off). And that IIRC the 60Hz drives take a shorter drive belt than the 50Hz ones (becuase of the smaller motor pulley), but you could problably move the motor out far enough to deal with that. AFAIK the spindle pulley is the same in all drives. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 17:51:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:51:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120822713.17516.12.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 8, 5 11:38:33 am Message-ID: > Actually, I'd not heard of the blue-cased machines before. Maybe they're > in standard off-the-shelf instrument cases rather than with RML logos, > panel cut-outs etc.? The black case is a standard (Vero iIRC) case. It was designed to take a 19" rack chassis, but RML just mounted the PSU and card guides inside. OK, the cutouts and logos are custom, but that's all. > Oh, Xebec board in my fileserver is an S1410, for which I have a manual > and a couple of spare boards, so I can do some messing around with a PC > parallel port driver. There's even a sample Z80 interface schematic in > the back of the manual that's probably adaptable... > > Still concerned about timings though as some of the timing diagrams do > have upper constraints on signal changes (a lot of them only specify a > minimum limit). Time will tell if the PC's port is quick enough... I think (wihtout trying it), you can go as slowly as you like. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 17:27:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:27:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050707214515.18aa1d91.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jul 7, 5 09:45:15 pm Message-ID: > Those early AT systems are eminently repairable, and 'understandable' on > the chip-level, since there aren't the 'mystery' chipset conglomeration Now why do you think I am using one (admittedly much-hacked, kludgewires and extra chips on some of the boards) right now.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 17:58:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:58:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <00a001c583cd$3aa0d3c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jul 8, 5 09:56:32 am Message-ID: > > No cable for the DSD setup eh? Hmmm, must still be in the garage.... > > It is a normal ribbon cable just as you suspect. > I bought a 26 conductor 10 foot rainbow ribbon cable yesterday, along with a > few 2x13 IDC connectors. So, I'll just make my own connector. As I recall, > rainbow ribbon cables normally use brown for pin 1. I also bit the bullet Yes. Just follow the normal colour code. You know : 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Better Buy Resistor Or Your Grid Bias May Go West L R E R E R L A R H A O D A L E U G E I C W N L E E E Y T K N G O N N E E W T A > and bought an IDC crimp tool, I've used a bench vise in the past and it just > doesn't work well - too many broken connectors ;) Odd... I've crimped dozens of connectors in the vice and had no problems. If it's a connector with exposed pins, like those DIL transition headers, I put the pins into a pluigblock type of 'breadboard' first. It's about all seid breadboards are useful for... > > As for mounting the RL01, there is still an H-960 sitting here! > > I think I also have a box of floppy disks for the DSD setup. > I have an H-960 spare. I was REALLY hoping to make the 11/45 a single bay > setup, but it doesn't seem that is really possible. I'll have to hunt up a Why not? In one of my H960s, I have the 11/45 CPU with it's PSUs (bottom 3 bays). Then an RX02 -- that doesn't obstruct the cooling to the CPU from what I've found. Then an RK05, but you could put an RL there. On top is the RK11-C controller at the front and its H720 PSU at the back. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 17:38:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:38:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050707215106.0f4d6c80.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jul 7, 5 09:51:06 pm Message-ID: > My first 'PC' used an early non-turbo XT-clone motherboard I bought at a > swapmeet. At the same swapmeet I bought an original 63.5 watt IBM > supply, a used 'Leading Edge, model D' case (just the sheet metal bits), > and an IBM MDA card. I already had an IBM keyboard that had no case on > it. When I got the whole mess home, the only way to fit the XT > motherboard in the case was to cut away all but one of the 'card edge > slots' in the LE case as it used different card connector spacing. The > only way to fit the power supply was to strip it entirely out of it's > original IBM case and mount the circuit board on standoffs in the > Leading Edge case. So that's what I did. Add two 360K floppy drives > and an original IBM MDA card and you've got my first PC. What a > conglomeration that system was. It lasted for years and years. It > makes the 'case modding' that enthusiasts dabble in today look like > childsplay. If we're having those sort of tales... This machine started out as an IBM PC/AT (8MHz version. It's got a 486 kludgeboard in place of the 286, but said kludgeboard was designed to fit the PLCC type of socket, not the PGA one. You were supposed to plug a PLCC socket into the PGA one if neccessary, but doing that made the board sit so high up that it blocked one of the expansion slots. Out with a soldering iron, off with the PGA socket, and in with a PLCC one. Then there was the drive table. I wanted to use a large hard disk than IBM had an entry for. I found out that the last 8K of the ROMs contained the various data tables. Programmed a couple of 2764s with the new tables, pluged them into the 'spare' ROM sockets on the motherboard, added a couple od TTL chips and kludgewires to do the address decoding. Clone MDA card. It got the timing of the wait signal wrong. More kludgewires and an unused gate in one of the chips fixed that. Early IDE card. TTL, a couple of PALs, and a floppy controller chip (I forget which one). A bit of stripboard as a daughterboard, fitted under a couple of the ICs, and carrying a couple more TTL chips to stretch the read and write signals to the IDE port, to drive the 'in use' LED. Only RC delays I'm afraid, but good enough for this. Fortunately this card can go in the slot next to the PSU, so the overhanging daughterboard doesn't waste a slot. One of the RAM cards started out life as an IBM 128K card. I reverse-engineered the bits IBM didn't document and worked out that it could take 2 rows of 256K chips (1M byte), not just 1 row of 64K chips (128K). So that's what I did. And the real time clock battery. I am not paying ridiculous amounts for the right lithium battery. In went a battery holder, a series diode, and 4 AA cells. They last about 3 years, and they're cheap to replace. Easy to get too. There must be more I've forgotten about.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 18:11:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 00:11:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jul 8, 5 11:02:12 am Message-ID: > > Ok, so I have a working processor, and a basement full of peripherals. I'm > not sure which way to go with the rest of the build. I'm not really up on > DEC stuff I admit, so maybe others here can offer me some advice as to what > is the best way to proceed. > > Background: > My 11/45 (11/45-CA actually) has the KB11-A processor, no FP. It's the older > style with the power distribution board on the back wall of the cpu cabinet OK, mine is like that. I rebuilt the power harness to give me an extra 5V feed from another regulator block to the expansion backplanes. The stock system is a bit current-limited there. > rather than on top. However, it's also got the newer 861A power control in > the bottom rather than the dual 860's in the top. There is the two H742A's > as well. I have one system unit installed - MF-11L in which is installed 8K > of core. In the cpu backplane there are three unibus slots which I believe > will take three quad? (C-F) boards. A&B in two of those slots are used for Yes, they are standard SPC slots. Don't forget you'll have to play around with the NPG jumper on the wire-side of the backplane if you put a DMA device -- like an RX211 -- in one of those slots. > the unibus A to unibus B jumper, and A&B of the last slot is the connector > to A&B of the MF-11L. The MF-11L has a 9312 in the last A&B slot. The SPC? > boards currently installed are two DL11's and a M7228. The ONLY board in > slot one is a 930C terminator in A&B. I have no MMU, so slot 13 is empty and > slot 14 has the M8116. Pity. You really need that MMU. You are limited to 28kW of memory without it. > > Separately, I have a lot of peripherals to choose from. Scads of RL02's, > DSD440, LincTape II, RX01's, RX02's, RA81's, etc. I also have a BA11-KU with > a DD11-DK backplane in it. > > Problem: > The unibus space on the cpu backplane is quite limited. At the VERY least I > have to keep one of the DL11's there, so that leaves me with two more unibus > slots for peripherals. I *THINK* that that standard controller for an RX02 > or RL02 takes all 6 rows (Hex cards?). However, the DSD440 controller only The RX02 controller (RX211) is a quad card and can go in the CPU backplane. The RL11 is a hex card though. > takes slots C-F (quad?). The linctape II controller also only takes C-F. So, > I think I could have a reasonable system by putting the DSD440 controller, > LincTape controller, and a DL11 and be done with it. However, I then am > limited to using core memory in the MF11. At the very best, I can get... YOu have space for 3 'system units' behind the CPU backplane. The MF11, IIRC, takes up 2 of them. You can fit a 4-slot backplane in as well. If you are mildly eccentric, you can wire-wrap said backplane to be 2 quad SPC slots, 2 hex SPC slots with MUD wiring on the top 2 connectors. That might be enough for you. > what... 32K in a MF11? I think I can get the additional core boards. But > correct me if I'm wrong but isn't sticking with core (max 32K) going to make > my operating system choices extremely limited? I'm guessing I can't run RSTS > or Unix on it with that kinda memory. vtserver I think requires a full load > of 128KW. On top of it all, the DSD440 takes most of the rack depth, as does > an RL02, so I've been advised against mounting anything above the /45 except > maybe the linctape. I would only put a 'short' unit immediately above the 11/45 CPU, but above that you can put an RL or something. > > Possible solutions: > 1) I just got a M7891 (64KW) off Ebay. I could yank out the MF-11L system > unit, yank out the DD11-DK from the spare BA11, and install the DD11 in the > cpu cabinet. I'd use the unibus memory M7891, ditch the core, and have a > fair number of slots left over in the DD11. However, there's problems with > this approach. I'd still be mounting stuff above the /45 (DSD440 & Linctape > at the least), and maybe an RL02. In other words, this would fix the memory > and unibus slot availability, but I believe I'd still be restricting the > airflow/cooling too much :\ Plus I'd need to find some of those rare Mate & > Lock connectors to get the DD11 into the /45 cabinet and do some power The easiest place to find those connectors is to raid current-loop serial cables.... > harness building. I guess I might need one or more regulators for this > approach as well. Then I'd have to find/buy a KT11-C to USE the M7891 I > think.... I'm probably talking about unobtanium stuff aren't I :| -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 18:12:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 00:12:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jul 8, 5 09:35:31 am Message-ID: > Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an > open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a > break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy > and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to As you've never met me, what leads you to that conclusion? -tony From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Jul 8 18:49:08 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 19:49:08 -0400 Subject: DEC RDxx drives (compatability)? In-Reply-To: <008101c58409$42a2e130$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <008101c58409$42a2e130$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42CF10F4.nail58M11JV03@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Micropolis 1558 ESDI + RQDX3 ? No. The cabling looks similar (one wide and one narrow cable) but they do not work with each other. If you can find a Webster/Sigma Q-bus ESDI controller, though, you are in fat city. When I moved off a RQDX3 and onto the ESDI controller circa 1990, I was so happy. Emulex ESDI controllers aren't too shabby either. (Although I far prefer the Websters.) Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 18:20:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 00:20:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <200507081930.MAA25133@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at Jul 8, 5 12:30:54 pm Message-ID: > Hi Tony > I'm proposing an experiment for you since I know that > you are the type that would actually try it. I am going to try this, although probably not tonight... However, even if it does bahave as you suggest, it still doesn't explain _why_... I will have to think about this some more... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 18:27:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 00:27:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <00a901c5840a$dcfd89f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jul 8, 5 05:17:43 pm Message-ID: > > Ok, so the obvious question is... > > If I add a 2nd bay..... > > 1) How unobtanium are the parts necessary to bolt the two H960 racks > together? IIRC, it's just 8 nuts and bolts. Or at least that's what I used to fix the 2 racks of my 11/45 system together. > 2) Can the MF11-L be present in the machine along with the M7891 in the BA11 > (in the 2nd rack)? Can both the core and the semiconductor be used at the > same time? Or do I need to pull the core boards out of the MF11 to use the > M7891 in the BA11? You can have any mix of memory up to the maximum amount your processor can address. If you have the KT11-C boards, you could, for example, have 32kW card and 92kW MOS (remember 4kW of the address space goes to the I/O page). Provided you give all the boards the right power, it'll work fine. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 8 19:03:21 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:03:21 -0700 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. Message-ID: <42CF1449.4050201@bitsavers.org> > 1) How unobtanium are the parts necessary to bolt the two H960 racks > together? IIRC, it's just 8 nuts and bolts. Or at least that's what I used to fix the 2 racks of my 11/45 system together. -- There are supposed to be two black filler strips, orig metal and later of plastic, roughly .5" x 2 " x 6 ft between each rack. The one that goes on the front has a slot to allow space for the magenta/wild rose top panels. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Jul 8 19:34:49 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 20:34:49 -0400 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <42CF1449.4050201@bitsavers.org> References: <42CF1449.4050201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42CF1BA9.nail5HY11E4V7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > 1) How unobtanium are the parts necessary to bolt the two H960 > racks together? I always used 1/4-20 bolts, washers, and nuts. If you're in Europe maybe M6 hardware would be appropriate. Tim. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 19:30:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an > > open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a > > break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy > > and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to > > As you've never met me, what leads you to that conclusion? Ok, feel free to try then. The gauntlet has been thrown down. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jul 8 20:06:27 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Jul 8, 5 05:30:54 pm" Message-ID: <200507090106.SAA16732@floodgap.com> > > > Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an > > > open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a > > > break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy > > > and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to > > > > As you've never met me, what leads you to that conclusion? > > Ok, feel free to try then. The gauntlet has been thrown down. I wouldn't do that. What if he were a mass murderer instead of a computer programmer? A throw-down just gets you an axe in the head. ;) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Eeny, Meeny, Jelly Beanie, the spirits are about to speak! -- Bullwinkle --- From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jul 8 20:36:33 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507090140.VAA20581@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [If you assume that all resistors are pin-to-pin, with no internal > junctions, which seems to he good for the HP DIP networks, then you > can deduce the resistors and connections by : [...]] I haven't thought about it enough to be sure, but I have a feeling that any resistor network is equivalent to some such pin-to-pin network. Anybody know enough theory to confirm this, or explain why it's false? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 21:05:02 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:05:02 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <5.2.0.9.0.20050708172331.022bdec0@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <005a01c5842a$9e14e6f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I had written.... >>I have two other H960 racks, guess I'll have to add one to the /45 and >>make it a dual bay system. The other H960 will probably go to the 11/34 >>restoration. And..... I was wrong. Just checked and I only have one other H960 rack. That means if I go with a dual bay /45, I have no H960 to mount the /34 in. Bummer. I'll just have to find a way to mount the /34 in one of those lowboy white corporate cabinets. Not as common of a setup as the H960's, but I'm not really up for freighting another H960, trying to find more side panels... etc. So choosing between the two, I'll use my only other H960 to make the /45 dualbay. > As long as you leave enough room for air to enter the top of the BA11-F, > you > should be able to mount peripherals above the CPU bay. You will likely > need > to leave the back, sides, or front panels off in order to allow a space > for > the air to enter. Ohhhhh no! I went to WAY too much trouble to locate side panels for my two H960's. Ain't no way I'm gonna leave them off to the side. A dual bay /45 it shall be :) I had exactly enough of those "two black post snap-on bracket thingies" that hold the front cover panels on.... for 1 bay. Now that it's going to be a dual bay setup, I'm short those black post snap-on bracket thingies. Maybe it's time for me to re-read that article on the classiccmp knowledgebase about casting plastic parts :). Worse, the rack I have the /45 in has a "Digital" masthead. The other H960 doesn't. That especially sucks, seeing as they are apparently worth 4 times their weight in gold on ebay for someone who wants to hang one on a wall :\ Jay From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 8 21:12:05 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:12:05 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <42CF1449.4050201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050708211059.02334730@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 05:03 PM 7/8/2005 -0700, you wrote: > > 1) How unobtanium are the parts necessary to bolt the two H960 racks > > together? > >IIRC, it's just 8 nuts and bolts. Or at least that's what I used to fix >the 2 racks of my 11/45 system together. > > >-- > >There are supposed to be two black filler strips, orig metal and later of >plastic, roughly .5" x 2 " x 6 ft between each rack. The one that goes on >the front has a slot to allow space for the magenta/wild rose top panels. Yes. Those strips would be nice to have, but they do not provide any actual functionality that is necessary. --tom From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 21:14:13 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:14:13 -0500 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") References: Message-ID: <008501c5842b$e7093e50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote (re: DD11-DK) > Yes, but if you don't have one, it's not hard to wire-wrap. I did this > before I even knew what a MUD device was... Stupid question.... Does a DD11-DK backplane have these "MUD" slots by default? Jay From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 22:36:58 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 23:36:58 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah, all the sniping services I've seen just jack the bid up by a set incriment On 7/8/05 1:31 PM, "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote: > On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > >> I don't rely on snipe services - unless they jack you to your max >> *instantly* instead of in incriments, nailing your highest at the last >> minute and having the snipe program check and raise and check and raise >> takes time, and it most likely won't hit your max during that last single >> minute, heh > > If a sniper service works like that then it's foolish and retarded. The > main reason I use a sniping service is to manage my bids for me. First of > all, for all the obvious reasons, bidding anytime before the imminent end > of an eBay auction is pointless. Second, I submit what I'm willing to > pay, and the sniper gets my bid in at the last possible reasonable second. > If I win, great. If I win for less than what I was willing to pay, even > better. If I don't, terrific! I saved my money for a rainy day. From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 22:57:55 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:57:55 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sniping is good. I bid on an item *without* sniping and I bid my max bid of $20. At the last minute, a guy bid $5, then $8, then $16. I ended up with paying $16.5. If I sniped it, I would have paid $5.5. On 7/8/05, Gary Sparkes wrote: > Ah, all the sniping services I've seen just jack the bid up by a set > incriment > > > On 7/8/05 1:31 PM, "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote: > > > On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > > > >> I don't rely on snipe services - unless they jack you to your max > >> *instantly* instead of in incriments, nailing your highest at the last > >> minute and having the snipe program check and raise and check and raise > >> takes time, and it most likely won't hit your max during that last single > >> minute, heh > > > > If a sniper service works like that then it's foolish and retarded. The > > main reason I use a sniping service is to manage my bids for me. First of > > all, for all the obvious reasons, bidding anytime before the imminent end > > of an eBay auction is pointless. Second, I submit what I'm willing to > > pay, and the sniper gets my bid in at the last possible reasonable second. > > If I win, great. If I win for less than what I was willing to pay, even > > better. If I don't, terrific! I saved my money for a rainy day. > > > From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 9 00:18:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 22:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > Ah, all the sniping services I've seen just jack the bid up by a set > incriment If they do then they are foolish and retarded. The whole point of a "sniping" "service" is to actually submit a "snipe" for you, not play high bid tag with some other sniping service's dumb bot. With what I use--StealthBid--you tell it what item you want to bid on and how much you're willing to pay. At the last second (almost literally) it submits your bid. If you win, great! If you win for a price lower than your high offer, even better. If not, you save your pennies for the better one coming up tomorrow. A sniping service as you describe completely defeats the purpose and is not really "sniping" (in the eBay sense*) at all. It opens you up to paying MORE than you would with a true snipe. * what a stupid euphemism to use for this...who's the idiot that came up with that? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Jul 9 01:11:55 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 01:11:55 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CF6AAB.9060904@mdrconsult.com> Gary Sparkes wrote: > Ah, all the sniping services I've seen just jack the bid up by a set > incriment Never heard of a sniping tool doing that. Which ones are you looking at? Doc From cc at corti-net.de Sat Jul 9 04:50:48 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:50:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 11/45 is alive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: >> I have an H-960 spare. I was REALLY hoping to make the 11/45 a single bay >> setup, but it doesn't seem that is really possible. I'll have to hunt up a > Why not? In one of my H960s, I have the 11/45 CPU with it's PSUs (bottom > 3 bays). Then an RX02 -- that doesn't obstruct the cooling to the CPU > from what I've found. Then an RK05, but you could put an RL there. On top > is the RK11-C controller at the front and its H720 PSU at the back. I have a single rack 11/45 system with one RK05 on top, then a RL02, a RK02 and then the CPU. All controller cards are in the CPU box itself, the RK11-D has its own backplane and fits into the CPU box, and there's an additional 4-slot DD11. In total, I have the CPU boards including FPP, two DL11-W cards (one for the console, one for auxiliary stuff), a 128kW MOS memory board, the RL11 controller (hex board), the RX211 controller (quad board) and the RX11-D controller at the end (with terminator card on the Unibus out slot). There's still space for another 4-slot backplane in the box. And all the stuff runs happily together and consumes only about 1300 watts (it's standard to have 230V outlets with 16A fusing here, a washing machines takes 2000W and the condensing dryer over 3000W). BTW I run RT11 or 2.9BSD on a RK05 disk. Yes, I have a small single RK05 disk 2.9BSD system (including a 256kB swap space!) with stuff like kermit etc. which I mainly use for playing around or data transfers. I think there's even the compiler on the disk. Christian From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 9 06:01:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 04:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wildly OT Message-ID: Just off-hand, does anyone in London know what's at 75 Tottenham Court Road? I'm playing with one of those silly little cashier's check scammers and that's the address he gave me. He's sending his "check" to the White House. Heheh :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sat Jul 9 06:28:02 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 12:28:02 +0100 Subject: Wildly OT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507091137.j69Bb8mv012494@keith.ezwind.net> Goodge Street Tube station.... Sounds like a dodgy bore to me! ;) Cheers, Ade -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: 09 July 2005 12:01 To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: Wildly OT Just off-hand, does anyone in London know what's at 75 Tottenham Court Road? I'm playing with one of those silly little cashier's check scammers and that's the address he gave me. He's sending his "check" to the White House. Heheh :) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/44 - Release Date: 08/07/2005 From dieymir at yahoo.es Sat Jul 9 06:30:31 2005 From: dieymir at yahoo.es (Diego Rodriguez) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:30:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Programming Language Inventor or Serial Killer? In-Reply-To: <200507071700.j67H03Cl051189@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050709113031.41900.qmail@web26408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:03:05 -0700 (PDT) > From: Vintage Computer Festival > Subject: Programming Language Inventor or Serial Killer? > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/ > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:15:02 -0700 (PDT) > From: Cameron Kaiser > Subject: Re: Programming Language Inventor or Serial Killer? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <200507071615.JAA16098 at floodgap.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/ > > w00t, I got 7/10! Ha ha! I will slaughter you all, I mean, I did > well. > > LOL I got 9/10. I though that John W. Mauchly was a serial killer... ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From pechter at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 11:31:56 2005 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 12:31:56 -0400 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <008501c5842b$e7093e50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <008501c5842b$e7093e50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42CFFBFC.5060501@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > Tony wrote (re: DD11-DK) > >> Yes, but if you don't have one, it's not hard to wire-wrap. I did this >> before I even knew what a MUD device was... > > > Stupid question.... Does a DD11-DK backplane have these "MUD" slots by > default? > > Jay > Yes... Bill From mross666 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 9 12:13:21 2005 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 17:13:21 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 23, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: <200507091700.j69H03TM083379@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Subject: Re: Take My Warehouse, Please! >At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > > >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > >Ah, thank you. I will rub these pictures like cool smooth stones >against my temples when I need to reassure myself that >"I may think I have a lot of junk, but at least I'm not as crazy as Xxxx." I have to say, I thought that was a piss-poor collection. Seriously unimpressed. A warehouse full of 'stuff', but there wasn't a single machine that I couldn't *pick up*... :-) Mike http://www.corestore.org From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jul 9 12:23:29 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 13:23:29 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 23, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D00811.nailFTN1LY2K7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Seriously unimpressed. A warehouse full of 'stuff', but there wasn't > a single machine that I couldn't *pick up*... I get the impression that there are other warehouses filled with racks of the big iron stuff. I think the pictures we saw were just of the "little bits". Sort of like the glove compartment of a semi :-). Tim. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sat Jul 9 13:03:01 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:03:01 +0200 Subject: DEC VR319 anyone ? Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050709200158.04116f98@pop.xs4all.nl> Is anyone here interested in a DEC VR319 for free to pickup or postage ? Otherwise it'll go into the dumpster. Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 9 13:04:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 23, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, Mike Ross wrote: > Subject: Re: Take My Warehouse, Please! > > >At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > > > > >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > > > >Ah, thank you. I will rub these pictures like cool smooth stones > >against my temples when I need to reassure myself that > >"I may think I have a lot of junk, but at least I'm not as crazy as Xxxx." > > I have to say, I thought that was a piss-poor collection. Seriously > unimpressed. A warehouse full of 'stuff', but there wasn't a single machine > that I couldn't *pick up*... You just couldn't see them ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From technobug at comcast.net Sat Jul 9 13:25:23 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:25:23 -0700 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <200507091633.j69GXU3R083199@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507091633.j69GXU3R083199@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3959FB42-C465-4A08-9CA6-9EBF6DAD5254@comcast.net> On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:58:52 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) recalled: > Yes. Just follow the normal colour code. You know : > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 > Better Buy Resistor Or Your Grid Bias May Go West > L R E R E R L A R H > A O D A L E U G E I > C W N L E E E Y T > K N G O N N E > E W T > A Egads! One of the most sanitized versions of the mnemonic I have heard. CRC From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sat Jul 9 14:00:22 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 21:00:22 +0200 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") References: <200507091633.j69GXU3R083199@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3959FB42-C465-4A08-9CA6-9EBF6DAD5254@comcast.net> Message-ID: <001101c584b8$758f1f50$2101a8c0@finans> From: "CRC" > > Yes. Just follow the normal colour code. You know : > > > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 > > Better Buy Resistor Or Your Grid Bias May Go West > > L R E R E R L A R H > > A O D A L E U G E I > > C W N L E E E Y T > > K N G O N N E > > E W T > > A > > Egads! One of the most sanitized versions of the mnemonic I have heard. Might one ask for an unsanitzed version ? If this is against "company rules", you might want to mail them directly :-) Nico From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jul 9 15:09:45 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 14:09:45 -0600 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <3959FB42-C465-4A08-9CA6-9EBF6DAD5254@comcast.net> References: <200507091633.j69GXU3R083199@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3959FB42-C465-4A08-9CA6-9EBF6DAD5254@comcast.net> Message-ID: <42D02F09.4030601@jetnet.ab.ca> CRC wrote: > > On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:58:52 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony > Duell) recalled: > > >> Yes. Just follow the normal colour code. You know : >> >> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >> Better Buy Resistor Or Your Grid Bias May Go West >> L R E R E R L A R H >> A O D A L E U G E I >> C W N L E E E Y T >> K N G O N N E >> E W T >> A > > > Egads! One of the most sanitized versions of the mnemonic I have heard. Now what is GRID BIAS ... :) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 9 14:49:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 20:49:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jul 9, 5 00:20:20 am Message-ID: > > > Hi Tony > > I'm proposing an experiment for you since I know that > > you are the type that would actually try it. > > I am going to try this, although probably not tonight... > > However, even if it does bahave as you suggest, it still doesn't explain > _why_... I will have to think about this some more... Sorry to follow up my own message, but I spent last night thinking about it, and I think I now understand it. The things that are important are (a) the belt is elastic and therefore stretches, and (b) the drage from the spools means that the tension in the belt is not the same all the way round. There is more tension in the belt on the takeup side than on the supply side. Supppos that a certain length of belt has gone past the supply spool (and thus wound off that length of tape). As it goes round the takeup spool the belt will be stretched a little more, so it will move the surface of that spool by more than the amount that the surface of the supply spool was moved. It will try to wind more tape onto the takeup spool, thus tensioning the tape. For obvious reasons this effect is small. It helps to have the tape fairly well tensioned before using the cartridge. If you're reassembling a defective one, I'd tension the tape as much as possible by hand. If you could make a cartridge with the belt round the outside, and with the drive roller possitioned far enough forward to let the bead get in contact with the tape (inside the loop formed by the belt), it wouldn't work. There'd be more movement on the supply side, the tape would get ever more slack. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 9 14:51:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 20:51:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <42CF1449.4050201@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jul 8, 5 05:03:21 pm Message-ID: > > > 1) How unobtanium are the parts necessary to bolt the two H960 racks > > together? > > IIRC, it's just 8 nuts and bolts. Or at least that's what I used to fix > the 2 racks of my 11/45 system together. > > > -- > > There are supposed to be two black filler strips, orig metal and later of > plastic, roughly .5" x 2 " x 6 ft between each rack. The one that goes on > the front has a slot to allow space for the magenta/wild rose top panels. > You don't actually need those, though. You can just bolt the racks together through the obvious holes, and the top panels, etc, all fit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 9 14:51:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 20:51:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jul 8, 5 05:30:54 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an > > > open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a > > > break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy > > > and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to > > > > As you've never met me, what leads you to that conclusion? > > Ok, feel free to try then. The gauntlet has been thrown down. I didn't say it wasn't true, I asked why you came to that conclusion. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 9 14:55:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 20:55:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC 11/45 build In-Reply-To: <005a01c5842a$9e14e6f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jul 8, 5 09:05:02 pm Message-ID: > I had exactly enough of those "two black post snap-on bracket thingies" that > hold the front cover panels on.... for 1 bay. Now that it's going to be a Those things are a right pain, and break if you look at them wrongly. I try to avoid empty space in my racks anyway... > dual bay setup, I'm short those black post snap-on bracket thingies. Maybe > it's time for me to re-read that article on the classiccmp knowledgebase > about casting plastic parts :). Worse, the rack I have the /45 in has a > "Digital" masthead. The other H960 doesn't. That especially sucks, seeing as IIRC the first cabinet -- the one coantining hte CPU, should have a top panel with 'Digital PDP11' on it. All other racks have one that is the same colours, but with no writing on it. Alas I've not got one of the second type. Both cabinets of my 11/45 system have the 'Digitial PDP11' top panels. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 9 15:04:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 21:04:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <3959FB42-C465-4A08-9CA6-9EBF6DAD5254@comcast.net> from "CRC" at Jul 9, 5 11:25:23 am Message-ID: > > > On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:58:52 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > (Tony Duell) recalled: > > > > Yes. Just follow the normal colour code. You know : > > > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 > > Better Buy Resistor Or Your Grid Bias May Go West > > L R E R E R L A R H > > A O D A L E U G E I > > C W N L E E E Y T > > K N G O N N E > > E W T > > A > > Egads! One of the most sanitized versions of the mnemonic I have heard. Well you can have 'Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly -- Get Some Now' if you prefer (the last 3 words being Gold, Sliver, None, for 5%, 10%, 20% tolerance). Or you can replace the first word by the colour it stands for for a very politically-incorrect version. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 9 15:20:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 21:20:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <42D02F09.4030601@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Jul 9, 5 02:09:45 pm Message-ID: > > CRC wrote: > > > > On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:58:52 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony > > Duell) recalled: > > > > > >> Yes. Just follow the normal colour code. You know : > >> > >> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 > >> Better Buy Resistor Or Your Grid Bias May Go West > >> L R E R E R L A R H > >> A O D A L E U G E I > >> C W N L E E E Y T > >> K N G O N N E > >> E W T > >> A > > > > > > Egads! One of the most sanitized versions of the mnemonic I have heard. > > Now what is GRID BIAS ... :) OK, make it 'Gate Bias' if you insist on these new-fangled FET things... -tony From kth at srv.net Sat Jul 9 16:33:26 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 15:33:26 -0600 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D042A6.3010509@srv.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>>No cable for the DSD setup eh? Hmmm, must still be in the garage.... >>>It is a normal ribbon cable just as you suspect. >>> >>> >>I bought a 26 conductor 10 foot rainbow ribbon cable yesterday, along with a >>few 2x13 IDC connectors. So, I'll just make my own connector. As I recall, >>rainbow ribbon cables normally use brown for pin 1. I also bit the bullet >> >> > >Yes. Just follow the normal colour code. You know : > >0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >Better Buy Resistor Or Your Grid Bias May Go West >L R E R E R L A R H >A O D A L E U G E I >C W N L E E E Y T >K N G O N N E > E W T > A > > > Magenta? Shouldn't that be violet. Bad Beer Rots Our Young Guts, But Vodka Goes Well Black Boys Rape Our Young Girls, But Violet Goes Willingly >>and bought an IDC crimp tool, I've used a bench vise in the past and it just >>doesn't work well - too many broken connectors ;) >> >> > >Odd... I've crimped dozens of connectors in the vice and had no problems. >If it's a connector with exposed pins, like those DIL transition headers, >I put the pins into a pluigblock type of 'breadboard' first. It's about >all seid breadboards are useful for... > > > >>>As for mounting the RL01, there is still an H-960 sitting here! >>>I think I also have a box of floppy disks for the DSD setup. >>> >>> >>I have an H-960 spare. I was REALLY hoping to make the 11/45 a single bay >>setup, but it doesn't seem that is really possible. I'll have to hunt up a >> >> > >Why not? In one of my H960s, I have the 11/45 CPU with it's PSUs (bottom >3 bays). Then an RX02 -- that doesn't obstruct the cooling to the CPU >from what I've found. Then an RK05, but you could put an RL there. On top >is the RK11-C controller at the front and its H720 PSU at the back. > >-tony > > > > From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sat Jul 9 17:01:32 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 00:01:32 +0200 Subject: Teleprint 390 Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710000000.02d5cb10@pop.xs4all.nl> Hi, Can anyone give me some more information about a Teleprint 390 ? I have one now and I think its pretty cool, works just fine but it would be nice to know some background information. Anyone by any chance have any docs they would like to part with ? Thanks! Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jul 9 16:55:05 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 17:55:05 -0400 Subject: FA: Lots of DEC (&Plessy and MDB) manuals and core memory Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050709175505.009c3c00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I just finished putting a bunch of DEC manuals and a complete core memory sub-system on E-bay. I have LOTs more to add as time permits. Joe From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 9 17:05:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 15:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an > > > > open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a > > > > break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy > > > > and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to > > > > > > As you've never met me, what leads you to that conclusion? > > > > Ok, feel free to try then. The gauntlet has been thrown down. > > I didn't say it wasn't true, I asked why you came to that conclusion. Well, you know, Hans is a virile German lad, and as such he's got quite the stamina, or so he tells me (and so he says the ladies tell him). Hans has expressed interest in my bargain several times, and even he thinks it would be quite a challenge for him. So if you think you are more fit than Hans then I apologize for question your energy output capability. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jul 9 18:08:48 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 18:08:48 -0500 Subject: RA81 slides??!##@$ Message-ID: <000f01c584db$2a619670$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> If someone knows the magic to pull a RA81 out of a rack and off the slides completely, I'd love to know it! I have two in the other H960 that someone mounted backwards in the rack :\ I pull the drive about halfway out and to get it further, flip up the "rocker" catches under the rail. Then it comes all the way out and clicks to a stop. Most rails I've seen... you have to get them about 3/4 of the way out and then a screw will appear in a hole that you have to take out. These slides have that hole but the screws are already out. What obvious trick am I missing? Jay From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 18:28:03 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 16:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? Message-ID: <20050709232803.42977.qmail@web40913.mail.yahoo.com> Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions ? no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jul 9 18:30:29 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 19:30:29 -0400 Subject: RA81 slides??!##@$ In-Reply-To: <000f01c584db$2a619670$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000f01c584db$2a619670$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42D05E15.nailITJ1155R9@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > What obvious trick am I missing? Maybe I'm confusing it with the RL02 rails, but on at least one there's a little metal tine on the top of the rail with a rubber "shoe". Lift that up, and you can slide the drive forward about another half inch, which gets it past the lock. If the rack has been shipped with the drive in place but with no screws, it's very likely that a piece of sheet metal is wedged under or into the rubber shoe. Some judicious prying with a long screwdriver usually straightens that out. The tine/shoe keeps the drive interlocked to the rail until you lift it and slide things about half an inch. Tim. From msell at vectorgames.org Sat Jul 9 18:37:08 2005 From: msell at vectorgames.org (Matthew Sell) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 16:37:08 -0700 Subject: OpenVMS 6.2 VAX CDs wanted In-Reply-To: <008501c583ca$6cbfaaa0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> <1120823117.17516.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <008501c583ca$6cbfaaa0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42D05FA4.4000507@vectorgames.org> Hello all, I am looking for a set of OpenVMS 6.2 CDs for VAX - does anyone here have a set for sale? (for hobbyist purposes....) Thanks! From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jul 9 18:40:15 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 18:40:15 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build References: Message-ID: <001801c584df$8f02b560$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote... > IIRC the first cabinet -- the one coantining hte CPU, should have a top > panel with 'Digital PDP11' on it. All other racks have one that is the > same colours, but with no writing on it. Yup, a listmember sold one or two on ebay a few weeks ago, I didn't bother cause I didn't think I'd need it. Of course, NOW, I do :) The ones he sold didn't have writing on them. Jay From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 9 18:42:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 16:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <20050709232803.42977.qmail@web40913.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, steven stengel wrote: > Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? I put in a message to the buyer to inform me when he gets it but I never got a reply. I can assume it has either already arrived or will be arriving at the buyer's locale soon, so I'll ping him in a day or two to see if he'll respond. hehe. moron.... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From uban at ubanproductions.com Sat Jul 9 18:56:15 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 18:56:15 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build In-Reply-To: <001801c584df$8f02b560$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050709185508.02372800@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 06:40 PM 7/9/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Tony wrote... >>IIRC the first cabinet -- the one coantining hte CPU, should have a top >>panel with 'Digital PDP11' on it. All other racks have one that is the >>same colours, but with no writing on it. >Yup, a listmember sold one or two on ebay a few weeks ago, I didn't bother >cause I didn't think I'd need it. Of course, NOW, I do :) The ones he sold >didn't have writing on them. I think that I have a spare one (without writing) that you may have if you like, and if you intend to keep your machine vs. sell it on eBay... --tom From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jul 9 19:19:20 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 19:19:20 -0500 Subject: IBM Punch Cards Message-ID: <010601c584e5$067b5390$1f406b43@66067007> Well pulling out my Hero-Jr robot for some photos I noticed the two card sample booklets I go a few weeks ago. There seems to be over 300 different card stock samples in the two salesman booklets. One is called "general Purpose Card Sample IBM Data Processing Cards" form # 570-0275 9-67 and the other is "IBM Standard stock card formats" form # 570-0440 from around 1970. I had no idea of all the many card formats IBM had. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 19:23:23 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:23:23 +0100 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <42D042A6.3010509@srv.net> References: <42D042A6.3010509@srv.net> Message-ID: On 7/9/05, Kevin Handy wrote: > Magenta? Shouldn't that be violet. It's always been violet wherever I've seen/been taught it. > Bad Beer Rots Our Young Guts, But Vodka Goes Well > Black Boys Rape Our Young Girls, But Violet Goes Willingly " " " But Virgins Go Without From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sat Jul 9 21:22:49 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 22:22:49 -0400 Subject: IBM Punch Cards In-Reply-To: <010601c584e5$067b5390$1f406b43@66067007> References: <010601c584e5$067b5390$1f406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050709222202.027ded60@pop-server> At 08:19 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote: >Well pulling out my Hero-Jr robot for some photos I noticed the two >card sample booklets I go a few weeks ago. There seems to be over >300 different card stock samples in the two salesman booklets. One >is called "general Purpose Card Sample IBM Data Processing Cards" >form # 570-0275 9-67 and the other is "IBM Standard stock card >formats" form # 570-0440 from around 1970. I had no idea of all the >many card formats IBM had. The standard cards that we used were 5081 cards. We later used the smaller cards in System 3 etc. From hachti at hachti.de Sat Jul 9 22:13:55 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 05:13:55 +0200 Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710000000.02d5cb10@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710000000.02d5cb10@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <42D09273.90809@hachti.de> Hi Stefan, > Can anyone give me some more information about a Teleprint 390 ? Teleprint 390 is an original Teletype ASR 33 in another cover. That's all. There is NO (!!) other difference. The Teleprint cover is made of metal and has a light. That makes the machine more comfortable and more quiet. > I have one now and I think its pretty cool, works just fine but it would > be nice to know some background information. See above. You don't need any more info. Or do you need service manuals for the cover??? > Anyone by any chance have any docs they would like to part with ? Look out for ASR33 manuals. They're not really rare. Best regards, Philipp :-) From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jul 9 22:17:39 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 23:17:39 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? References: Message-ID: <003f01c584fd$f6fe2410$5b7da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:42 PM Subject: Re: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, steven stengel wrote: > > > Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? > > I put in a message to the buyer to inform me when he gets it but I never > got a reply. I can assume it has either already arrived or will be > arriving at the buyer's locale soon, so I'll ping him in a day or two to > see if he'll respond. > > hehe. moron.... > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival You know the guy might be a member of this list, so watch the name calling. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jul 9 22:47:19 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 23:47:19 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <003f01c584fd$f6fe2410$5b7da418@game> References: <003f01c584fd$f6fe2410$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: <42D09A47.10007@atarimuseum.com> If the person is a member of the list, they should've known better and NOT have bid. Teo Zenios wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:42 PM >Subject: Re: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? > > > > >>On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, steven stengel wrote: >> >> >> >>>Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? >>> >>> >>I put in a message to the buyer to inform me when he gets it but I never >>got a reply. I can assume it has either already arrived or will be >>arriving at the buyer's locale soon, so I'll ping him in a day or two to >>see if he'll respond. >> >>hehe. moron.... >> >>-- >> >>Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >> >> >Festival > >You know the guy might be a member of this list, so watch the name calling. > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/44 - Release Date: 7/8/2005 From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 9 23:38:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 21:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <003f01c584fd$f6fe2410$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, steven stengel wrote: > > > > > Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? > > > > I put in a message to the buyer to inform me when he gets it but I never > > got a reply. I can assume it has either already arrived or will be > > arriving at the buyer's locale soon, so I'll ping him in a day or two to > > see if he'll respond. > > > > hehe. moron.... > > You know the guy might be a member of this list, so watch the name calling. Sorry, I prefer to be brutally honest here. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 10 00:11:38 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 22:11:38 -0700 Subject: Discrete Component FlipFlop Message-ID: <42D0AE0A.303CFB40@rain.org> Our annual Bazaar was held today with all the leftover stuff now at my house ... briefly! In searching through the stuff this afternoon, I found several boards that I couldn't identify. One is labeled "FlipFlop" and the other "Inverter". I put up a picture of both sides of the FlipFlop at: http://www.rain.org/~marvin/flipflop.jpg While not obvious from the photo, it does look like the board has gold plated traces. Does anyone know what these things might have been a part of? From napier at waste.org Sun Jul 10 01:18:25 2005 From: napier at waste.org (John Napier) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 23:18:25 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D0BDB1.3040407@waste.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Sorry, I prefer to be brutally honest here. But, I mean, just in terms of getting a response at all, it's harder for someone to speak up if they are already judged a "moron". I'd love to hear what they actually got, without calling them names if it turns out to be an apple //e or whatever. - Joe (we've all fucked up at least once. I bought a Bentley for 20K that I sold for 6K. e.g.) From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Sun Jul 10 02:38:21 2005 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:38:21 +0200 Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710000000.02d5cb10@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710000000.02d5cb10@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <42D0D06D.20709@gmx.net> If you want to see some pictures of a Teleprint 390 take a look at http://pdp8.de/frames/set_teletype.html or http://pdp8.de/en/frames/set_teletype.html Gerold Stefan wrote: > Hi, > > Can anyone give me some more information about a Teleprint 390 ? > I have one now and I think its pretty cool, works just fine but it > would be nice to know some background information. > > Anyone by any chance have any docs they would like to part with ? > > Thanks! > > Stefan. > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > From tomj at wps.com Sun Jul 10 03:28:08 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050710011909.G1403@fiche.wps.com> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Problem over here is that we're on a crowded island and the Government > place use of buildings for museum space pretty much at the bottom of the > ladder; I imagine that isn't so much of a problem in much of the US. Here in the US, there is essentially zero (0) chance of any public involvement in a museum that won't make a lot of money. A side-effect of the corporatization of everything. Even the Smithsonian is hosting a "creation science" exhibit with corporate sponsorship. (the current euphemism is 'intelligent design', similar to the use of the phrase 'depleted uranium'.) Public funding for the arts has been reduced to a practical zero by right-wing corporate goons, sicko christian loonies, and the dwindling resources that remain go to fewer and fewer recipients. But I digress. Any group seriously starting a museum will know that longevity is the key, and that serious donors and lenders of goods know it, and they know they know it, so a new, legitimate museum startup would likely forefront their stability -- if they had any -- in outreach efforts. The implication is, if they don't, they aren't. From tomj at wps.com Sun Jul 10 03:32:11 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intercept (6100) PDP-8 compatibility? In-Reply-To: <0IJB00HY45Q6BBK6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IJB00HY45Q6BBK6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050710012825.T1403@fiche.wps.com> >> What peripgherals and OS software is available for, or runs on, >> the Intercept? (Not the Jr board, the rack-mount job). >> >> I'm thinking it might make a comfortably modern old machine... On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Allison wrote: > You can run most base PDP-8 software. The small difference is the > console IOTs are differently assigned but easily fixed in the code. > Its the side effect of their IO devices. Cool! So in what way is it electrically I/O compatible? Did the Intercept have it's own peripherals (disk, tape, etc)? Or can it connect to some DEC buss? All I'm thinking of is a small disk (<= 10 MB), serial stuff (paper tape, tty) and enough memory to run really old OS stuff. At this point I'm not very serious, certianly not acquisitive yet. Just stockpiling ideas. From cc at corti-net.de Sun Jul 10 04:11:57 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:11:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: IBM card punch Message-ID: Hi everyone, I am still looking for information about an IBM card punch which I thought was some variant of an IBM 029. I've found out that this must be an "IBM 545 input output card punch". So, has anyone any information about this punch? (Pictures are on http://computermuseum-stuttgart.de/dev/tmp/ibm029.html) Christian From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Jul 10 05:36:48 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:36:48 +0100 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <001101c584b8$758f1f50$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200507091633.j69GXU3R083199@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3959FB42-C465-4A08-9CA6-9EBF6DAD5254@comcast.net> <001101c584b8$758f1f50$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <42D0FA40.5050403@gjcp.net> Nico de Jong wrote: > From: "CRC" > >>>Yes. Just follow the normal colour code. You know : >>> >>>0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >>>Better Buy Resistor Or Your Grid Bias May Go West >>>L R E R E R L A R H >>>A O D A L E U G E I >>>C W N L E E E Y T >>>K N G O N N E >>> E W T >>> A >> >>Egads! One of the most sanitized versions of the mnemonic I have heard. > > > Might one ask for an unsanitzed version ? If this is against "company > rules", you might want to mail them directly :-) > > Nico > > 0 Botty 1 Burpers 2 Recently 3 Offended 4 Your 5 Grandmother 6 By 7 Violently 8 Guffing 9 While G Granny S Served P Pudding G, S, and P are, of course, Gold == 5%, Silver == 10% and Plain == unspecified tolerance Gordon From James at jdfogg.com Sun Jul 10 06:09:45 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 07:09:45 -0400 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BD4@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > Might one ask for an unsanitzed version ? If this is > against "company > > rules", you might want to mail them directly :-) I know it as... (value) Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly (tolerance) Get Some Now ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sun Jul 10 07:55:50 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:55:50 +0200 Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: <42D0D06D.20709@gmx.net> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710000000.02d5cb10@pop.xs4all.nl> <42D0D06D.20709@gmx.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710145436.02dde5d0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Thanks Gerold, know the site. But than again, I have one myself so ;-) and mine is a real Teleprint 390 hehe Well that one is too but mine also says Teleprint 390 where the one on the pictures says Data Plan But never mind At 09:38 10-7-2005, you wrote: >If you want to see some pictures of a Teleprint 390 take a look at > >http://pdp8.de/frames/set_teletype.html >or >http://pdp8.de/en/frames/set_teletype.html > >Gerold > > > >Stefan wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>Can anyone give me some more information about a Teleprint 390 ? >>I have one now and I think its pretty cool, works just fine but it >>would be nice to know some background information. >> >>Anyone by any chance have any docs they would like to part with ? >> >>Thanks! >> >>Stefan. >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------- >>http://www.oldcomputercollection.com >> ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Jul 10 08:05:46 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:05:46 -0400 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") References: <42CE0F76.1030703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000501c58550$18820820$0100a8c0@screamer> Yes, all the DecTapes and Linctapes belong to Jay. I have a pair of TK-50's here with your name on them, I need to get those sent out to you.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 1:30 AM Subject: Re: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") > Also, use the MOS memory from the 11/34 to boot. > > -- > > Doesn't this require a DD11 backplane with Modified Unibus Device (MUD) > slots? > > > === > > > Al K. 'borrowed' > several tapes that had something of interest when he picked up the > MIT CADR as well. > > -- > > They were finally read last year when I got a TC11 working again, > along with some that I 'borrowed' from Jay on the same trip. > > Should all of them be sent to Jay? > From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Jul 10 08:14:36 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:14:36 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer><1120823117.17516.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <008501c583ca$6cbfaaa0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <002701c58551$52b7a760$0100a8c0@screamer> I'm using a Casio Exilim EX-Z50, and I highly recommend it! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 10:36 AM Subject: Re: HP 1000 System photos on-line > VERY nice setup Bob!! > > I really should get some pictures of my HP bays online too, it'd be a good > contrast to Bob's setup. His seems to have more of a test & measurement > bent, while mine is more of a general computing bent. However, to do that, > I'd have to dump the digital camera of mine that has started taking icky > pictures and buy a new one :) > > Jay > From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Jul 10 08:15:31 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:15:31 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> <009001c583ca$b7813d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <002d01c58551$773e8b80$0100a8c0@screamer> Too bad they did not think about it that way as VCF East. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 10:38 AM Subject: Re: HP 1000 System photos on-line > To me, what is especially outstanding about Bob's setup is the IDE hard > drive interface, and the homebrew paper tape reader & punch to/from > EEprom. Talk about an incredible application of new technology to old > technology!!! Outstanding!! > > Jay > From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Jul 10 08:37:04 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:37:04 -0400 Subject: IBM Punch Cards (Free Samples) In-Reply-To: <200507100757.j6A7vYoG090579@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200507101337.j6ADaxHI008457@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> This guy: http://www.acme.com/jef/punch_cards/ Has a site devoted to old IBM 80-column punch cards, and if you send him an empty pre-addressed envelope with postage (about 3 ounces, I think), he will send you free samples, a stack about one-quarter inch thick (a couple dozen cards). From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Jul 10 09:35:29 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 07:35:29 -0700 Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <20050710011909.G1403@fiche.wps.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050710011909.G1403@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <200507100735.30041.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 10 July 2005 01:28, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: --snip-- > Public funding for the arts has been reduced to a practical zero > by right-wing corporate goons, sicko christian loonies, and the > dwindling resources that remain go to fewer and fewer recipients. There are some of us "corporate goons, sicko christian loonies" who do a lot of volunteer work for and have donated generously to the Computer History Museum (the largest museum of it's kind in the world). We (speaking as a charter member) have a huge collection of artifacts and have restored an IBM 1620 and PDP-1 to working condition and are in the process of restoring an IBM 1401 (more to follow). These are projects well beyond the scope of most collectors. It might be wise to revisit your thoughts before you lash out with your broad, baseless, unfounded assumptions. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 10 10:00:09 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:00:09 -0400 Subject: Public funding for the "Arts" Re: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <20050710011909.G1403@fiche.wps.com> References: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:28 AM 7/10/05 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > >Public funding for the arts has been reduced to a practical zero >by right-wing corporate goons, sicko christian loonies, and the >dwindling resources that remain go to fewer and fewer recipients. I couldn't disagree more! It wasn't the right-wing goons, christian loonies, etc that killed public funding for the arts, it was the sicko, perverted, frequently pornographic and always ugly work of the "artists" that killed public funding. The public was fed up with no-talent artists feeding at the public trough! Remember the photograph of the crucifix in a glass of urine? How much talent did that take? Yet that "artist" was paid several hundred thousand dollars every year to produce "art". I for one hope we've seen the last of "art" produced for the public! There are thousands of good artists in this country but public funding was nothing but a haven for no-talent punks that wanted to make a "statement" and screamed "freedom of the arts" everytime they offended the same public that they expected to fund them! Joe From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jul 10 10:30:20 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:30:20 -0500 Subject: Public funding for the "Arts" Re: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42D13F0C.3070901@mdrconsult.com> Joe R. wrote: > At 01:28 AM 7/10/05 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: No good can come of this. $ cat $thread > /dev/null 2>&1 Doc From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 10 11:02:08 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:02:08 +0000 Subject: Public funding for the "Arts" Re: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1121011328.20260.51.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-10 at 11:00 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > At 01:28 AM 7/10/05 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > > > >Public funding for the arts has been reduced to a practical zero > >by right-wing corporate goons, sicko christian loonies, and the > >dwindling resources that remain go to fewer and fewer recipients. > > I couldn't disagree more! It wasn't the right-wing goons, christian > loonies, etc that killed public funding for the arts, it was the sicko, > perverted, frequently pornographic and always ugly work of the "artists" > that killed public funding. Neither IMHO. Modern Governments don't appear to care about the population (did they ever?) - they only care about getting re-elected and being seen to be better than other Governments of the world. That tends to lead to public-funded entertainment in any form taking a back seat to things that will result in more profit. Over here it seems to be getting worse fast, too. Plus we've now got the Olympics in 2012 which means public funding for anything else is likely to get cut even further. Self-sufficiency or private sponsorship are the only way forward for most projects - but of course private sponsorship is almost impossible to get for any kind of start-up operation; businesses are only going to throw money at something that's already achieving a certain amount. cheers Jules From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jul 10 11:00:58 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:00:58 -0500 Subject: IBM Punch Cards (Free Samples) References: <200507101337.j6ADaxHI008457@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <007601c58568$90e7a3c0$16406b43@66067007> Thanks for the tip, very cool site. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Watzman" To: Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 8:37 AM Subject: Re: IBM Punch Cards (Free Samples) > This guy: > > http://www.acme.com/jef/punch_cards/ > > Has a site devoted to old IBM 80-column punch cards, and if you send him > an > empty pre-addressed envelope with postage (about 3 ounces, I think), he > will > send you free samples, a stack about one-quarter inch thick (a couple > dozen > cards). > > > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jul 10 11:18:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:18:58 -0500 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <003f01c584fd$f6fe2410$5b7da418@game> References: <003f01c584fd$f6fe2410$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: <20050710111858.1cc188b2.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 23:17:39 -0400 "Teo Zenios" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:42 PM > Subject: Re: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? > > > > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, steven stengel wrote: > > > > > Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? > > > > I put in a message to the buyer to inform me when he gets it but I > > never got a reply. I can assume it has either already arrived or > > will be arriving at the buyer's locale soon, so I'll ping him in a > > day or two to see if he'll respond. > > > > hehe. moron.... > > > > -- > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > > Computer > Festival > > You know the guy might be a member of this list, so watch the name > calling. > > Even if s/he isn't a member of the list, that kind of tone repels people. We need to strive not to come off as a superior elite. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jul 10 11:24:25 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:24:25 -0500 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <42D0BDB1.3040407@waste.org> References: <42D0BDB1.3040407@waste.org> Message-ID: <20050710112425.11d4160b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 23:18:25 -0700 John Napier wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Sorry, I prefer to be brutally honest here. > > But, I mean, just in terms of getting a response at all, it's harder > for someone to speak up if they are already judged a "moron". > I'd love to hear what they actually got, without calling them names > if it turns out to be an apple //e or whatever. > > - Joe > > (we've all fucked up at least once. I bought a Bentley for 20K that I > sold for 6K. e.g.) > It might be a big board, or somesuch equally interesting early system somebody put together out of a magazine article 'in their own style.' It's likely not a 'real' Apple I. But for those of us interested in early tech, the datecodes on the chip and the novelty of whatever it is and however it is constructed matters more than being the first product from a rather popular hardware brand. I'm sorry, but when 'scarcity' becomes the deciding factor in how 'interesting' a piece of equipment is to the community, this hobby is close to becoming another room full of stamp collectors, or worse, Star Wars 'collectable' fanatics. From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jul 10 11:28:39 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:28:39 -0500 Subject: Computer Museum References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <00a401c5856c$770c8ac0$16406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:27 PM Subject: Re: Computer Museum > > Personally I wouldn't give anything to anyone who didn't have space for > it already though - they should be able to amass enough of a collection > first to know if it's viable, get some display space, and then put out > an appeal to enthusiasts. > > cheers > > Jules > This helps me understand why there is very little reponse to my JUST A BUCK campaign asking for $1 from each person that visit's the museum website. There seems to be very little(if any) help for start-ups in the museum sector. I have seem two computer museum starts-ups get large funding help but the people starting them were already rich and their friends gave big bucks ( 1 million or more). > From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jul 10 11:39:44 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:39:44 -0500 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BD4@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BD4@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <20050710113944.5f48ddeb.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 07:09:45 -0400 "James Fogg" wrote: > > > Might one ask for an unsanitzed version ? If this is > > against "company > > > rules", you might want to mail them directly :-) > > > > I know it as... > > (value) > Bad > Boys > R*** > Our > Young > Girls > But > Violet > Gives > Willingly > > (tolerance) > Get > Some > Now > In the Boy Scout merit badge pamphlet it was: Better Be Right Or Your Great Big Venture Goes Wrong > ---- > There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand > binary and those who don't. > From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jul 10 11:47:13 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:47:13 -0400 Subject: Computer Museum References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <00a401c5856c$770c8ac0$16406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <004301c5856f$0ed96740$5b7da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 12:28 PM Subject: Re: Computer Museum > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jules Richardson" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:27 PM > Subject: Re: Computer Museum > > > > > Personally I wouldn't give anything to anyone who didn't have space for > > it already though - they should be able to amass enough of a collection > > first to know if it's viable, get some display space, and then put out > > an appeal to enthusiasts. > > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > > This helps me understand why there is very little reponse to my JUST A BUCK > campaign asking for $1 from each person that visit's the museum website. > There seems to be very little(if any) help for start-ups in the museum > sector. I have seem two computer museum starts-ups get large funding help > but the people starting them were already rich and their friends gave big > bucks ( 1 million or more). > > > People have been burned too many times by others collecting for a cause that does not exist. If somebody asked you to contribute money to a museum that did not have a large collection, a building, and some visiting hours already you might be thinking this guy just wants you to help pay for his collecting needs and the machines (if that is even where the money goes) are never seen by anybody. For most people a cheap to maintain website is preferable to a real computer museum showing static unpowered machines anyway. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sun Jul 10 12:29:49 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:29:49 +0200 Subject: Apple cable ? Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710192944.02decc90@pop.xs4all.nl> Can anyone tell me what kind of Apple cables these are ? http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/applekabel.jpg Thanks! Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 10 12:20:38 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <42D0BDB1.3040407@waste.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, John Napier wrote: > But, I mean, just in terms of getting a response at all, it's harder > for someone to speak up if they are already judged a "moron". > I'd love to hear what they actually got, without calling them names > if it turns out to be an apple //e or whatever. > > - Joe > > (we've all fucked up at least once. I bought a Bentley for 20K that I > sold for 6K. e.g.) That's not a fuck-up, that's reality. You made the choice knowing everything. There's no analogy whatsoever to what happened here, which is someone buying a wooden box with a keyboard on speculation (driven by the seller's fraud through omission) that it was something else. If it does end up being an Apple-1 I will eat my first born. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jul 10 12:29:19 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:29:19 -0500 Subject: Apple cable ? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710192944.02decc90@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710192944.02decc90@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050710122706.0574d040@mail> At 12:29 PM 7/10/2005, Stefan wrote: >Can anyone tell me what kind of Apple cables these are ? >http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/applekabel.jpg LocalTalk as used on the original Mac. Early networking, using the serial port: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LocalTalk - John From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 10 12:31:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <20050710111858.1cc188b2.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, steven stengel wrote: > > > > > > > Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? > > > > > > I put in a message to the buyer to inform me when he gets it but I > > > never got a reply. I can assume it has either already arrived or > > > will be arriving at the buyer's locale soon, so I'll ping him in a > > > day or two to see if he'll respond. > > > > > > hehe. moron.... > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > > > Computer > > Festival > > > > You know the guy might be a member of this list, so watch the name > > calling. > > > > > Even if s/he isn't a member of the list, that kind of tone repels > people. We need to strive not to come off as a superior elite. I'm a "superior elite" because I pointed out what an idiot someone is for doing something superiorly idiotic? How does that work? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From g-wright at worldnet.att.net Sun Jul 10 09:45:03 2005 From: g-wright at worldnet.att.net (g-wright) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:45:03 -0400 Subject: WAS .... PDP-11/23+ and rx-02 drives, need help!!! Message-ID: <42D1346F.9010803@worldnet.att.net> Thanks to everyone that took the time to respond. As the story goes Henk (My 11/60 buddy) was right on the money with the the board location. I started out there a Year ago but in time made the mistake of not following my notes and installing the board below the disk controller. The other problems where, none of the Blank "DEC labeled" disks will Format even now, but will work on a CPM machine. The drive looks for something very quickly and errors even in single density mode. I did get some new "DEC labeled" disks to work now. The other issues where that 2 out of the 3 sets of RK-02's where Bad and only 1 of my RT11 disks will boot. So I had a large hole to dig myself out of. All are working now. I just went through 10 sets of RK-02s and only got 4 going. Most have bad boards. It seems that the lower board is the worst with 5 bad. Most of these came from a Damp location. Someone else had them stored in a barn. I have tested these by swapping the boards into the working machines and using the boards from the working machines in the test machines. On the Hardware side, after cleaning and lubing all seemed to be OK. At least they could boot from either drive. Anyone had any luck repairing the boards ???? What effect does the moisture have on the boards ???? They where not outside just damp air. I have cleaned them with board cleaner and checked the switches for operation. Some of the IC pins are getting rusty. Are the IC's sealed very well or can moisture get in the chips Just think, I still have TE-11/16's and RL-01/02's to get going. Before MY 11/60's. Thanks again Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc. ....>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, I'm trying to get one of my 11-23's going and finally got around to setting up a TU58 emulator. got it to boot RT-11 and now trying to get a RX-02 working. I have 3 controllers and 3 sets of RX-02's. All do the same thing. The just seems to not be able to find track 1 or Home or ??? The heads just keep going from home to maybe the first tack and back. The heads do load and the system tries quit a few times then pauses and tries again. It then errors on drive failure or read error directory not found, size function failed depends what I ask it to do. I have tried all of the boards and drives. all or them seem to do the same thing. I do not know how good the drives are but can't believe there all bad. I have recheck the switches in the RX-02 and the Jumpers on the cards. Cleaned the drives. tried different disks. Is there some kind of compatibility issue that i do not know about. Or do I have 6 dead drives. The system is a Micro PDP 11, 8 slot Rack mount, with 1 M8189 1123+ 1 M8067 KB 256k Memory 1 M8639 YA MFM rx50 controller 1 M8029 RX-02 controller in this order. Everything else seems to work. I added the floppy card but the rest original. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc. ------------------------------ M From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jul 10 13:12:12 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:12:12 -0500 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: References: <20050710111858.1cc188b2.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050710131212.3fe9944a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > > > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, steven stengel wrote: > > > > > > > > > Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? > > > > > > > > I put in a message to the buyer to inform me when he gets it but > > > > I never got a reply. I can assume it has either already arrived > > > > or will be arriving at the buyer's locale soon, so I'll ping him > > > > in a day or two to see if he'll respond. > > > > > > > > hehe. moron.... > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > > > > Computer > > > Festival > > > > > > You know the guy might be a member of this list, so watch the name > > > calling. > > > > > > > > Even if s/he isn't a member of the list, that kind of tone repels > > people. We need to strive not to come off as a superior elite. > > I'm a "superior elite" because I pointed out what an idiot someone is > for doing something superiorly idiotic? How does that work? > You spoke of that individual in the manner in which one who is in a clique speaks to other members about outsiders. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jul 10 13:15:49 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:15:49 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? References: Message-ID: <008201c5857b$66e4f600$5b7da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 1:31 PM Subject: Re: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? > On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > > > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, steven stengel wrote: > > > > > > > > > Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? > > > > > > > > I put in a message to the buyer to inform me when he gets it but I > > > > never got a reply. I can assume it has either already arrived or > > > > will be arriving at the buyer's locale soon, so I'll ping him in a > > > > day or two to see if he'll respond. > > > > > > > > hehe. moron.... > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > > > > Computer > > > Festival > > > > > > You know the guy might be a member of this list, so watch the name > > > calling. > > > > > > > > Even if s/he isn't a member of the list, that kind of tone repels > > people. We need to strive not to come off as a superior elite. > > I'm a "superior elite" because I pointed out what an idiot someone is for > doing something superiorly idiotic? How does that work? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- It is in the attitude and presentation. Lots of people have great knowledge of a specific small niche and general knowledge of everything else. When you start calling people names and making fun of them because they do not have the vast knowledge of some particular niche that you do you come off as elitist and a jerk. How would you feel if you went to the doctor because you think you had some disease and the doctor called his other medical buddies into the room and started calling you an idiot because you misdiagnosed the "simple" condition and they all pointed and laughed at you? There are many people in this world not thick skinned as I am and apparently you are Sellam. If you make comments on a public list ridiculing somebody for their lack of knowledge many people will simply stay lurkers and never post anything meaningful to this list (or simple quit). Some of those people might even run into a part you actually need but will never know about. In many areas you can accomplish more with good people skills then you can with an attitude and vast amounts of knowledge and ability. Why scare people away from the hobby when you could bring more people in with the knowledge you accumulate? Of course if you really are an elitist then you could care less about anybody that does not posses the "valuable" knowledge you have, and I am wasting my time typing this up. The person in question must be good at something marketable to be able to afford the things he buys on ebay (unless of course he has hit the lottery or rich deceased relatives). From news at computercollector.com Sun Jul 10 13:42:40 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:42:40 -0400 Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <00a401c5856c$770c8ac0$16406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <200507101851.j6AIpPhn024463@keith.ezwind.net> Out here in NJ, we've been extremely lucky with the new-ish local club, MARCH (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists). There's a new science musuem being built at a former army base, they already have official non-profit status, and they even inherited an existing computer collection. They found our group, and we found them, via mutual contacts at the Trenton Computer Festival. Turns out they wanted to find a group of people who could manage their collection. So basically they are "giving" us a museum to run. A few of us already toured the base and they've got dozens and dozens of acres of land and empty buildings. At one point they took us to a building called "the library" (the base was also a college at one point) and they said, oh, that building's yours! We also learned that part of the collection we're getting includes an actual ENIAC card. Cool! Our club isn't listed yet, but the facility itself is at infoage.org (our club is temporarily at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ ) ... I guess the moral of all this is that it's helpful to make computer museums part of existing, related facilities, rather than trying to start from scratch. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Keys Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 12:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Computer Museum ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:27 PM Subject: Re: Computer Museum > > Personally I wouldn't give anything to anyone who didn't have space > for it already though - they should be able to amass enough of a > collection first to know if it's viable, get some display space, and > then put out an appeal to enthusiasts. > > cheers > > Jules > This helps me understand why there is very little reponse to my JUST A BUCK campaign asking for $1 from each person that visit's the museum website. There seems to be very little(if any) help for start-ups in the museum sector. I have seem two computer museum starts-ups get large funding help but the people starting them were already rich and their friends gave big bucks ( 1 million or more). > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 10 14:18:15 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:18:15 -0600 Subject: Discrete Component FlipFlop In-Reply-To: <42D0AE0A.303CFB40@rain.org> References: <42D0AE0A.303CFB40@rain.org> Message-ID: <42D17477.7000700@jetnet.ab.ca> Marvin Johnston wrote: > Our annual Bazaar was held today with all the leftover stuff now at my > house ... briefly! In searching through the stuff this afternoon, I > found several boards that I couldn't identify. One is labeled "FlipFlop" > and the other "Inverter". I put up a picture of both sides of the > FlipFlop at: > It will only take another 2513 more years to collect the whole computer. Off Hand the logo on the Flip/flop is you best bet to find who made it. That is not dec and IBM. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 10 14:24:08 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:24:08 -0600 Subject: Public funding for the "Arts" Re: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <42D13F0C.3070901@mdrconsult.com> References: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42D13F0C.3070901@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <42D175D8.1020508@jetnet.ab.ca> Doc Shipley wrote: > Joe R. wrote: > $ cat $thread > /dev/null 2>&1 > Bit bucket full -- redirecting output to console. Computers are not art but science ... History however is needed in all forms however. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 10 14:59:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:59:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: WAS .... PDP-11/23+ and rx-02 drives, need help!!! In-Reply-To: <42D1346F.9010803@worldnet.att.net> from "g-wright" at Jul 10, 5 10:45:03 am Message-ID: > I just went through 10 sets of RK-02s and only got 4 going. Most > have bad boards. It seems that the lower board is the worst with > 5 bad. Most of these came from a Damp location. Someone else had > them stored in a barn. I have tested these by swapping the boards > into the working machines and using the boards from the working > machines in the test machines. On the Hardware side, after cleaning I will refrain from flaming _again_ about that... > and lubing all seemed to be OK. At least they could boot from either > drive. > > Anyone had any luck repairing the boards ???? Sure. They're not particulalrly complicated. The lower board contains several different functions. The read/write chain, index and track 0 sensor circuits, the head load solenoid driver, the stepper driver, etc. The first job is to determine which function(s) has failed. Then you know which bit of circuitry to dive into. Most of those sections are simple. The upper board is more difficult to debug. It's actually a processor built using a couple of 2901 ALU slices and 3 2909 (or is it 2911) sequencer slices. A listing of the firmware is useful (DEC, AFAIK, never supplied this, I had to disassemble and hand-comment it from one of my drives), as is a logic anaylser. Then you can check to see (a) what routine is being executed and (b) if the sequence of instructions is at all sane. > > What effect does the moisture have on the boards ???? They where not > outside just damp air. > > I have cleaned them with board cleaner and checked the switches for > operation. Some of the IC pins are getting rusty. Are the IC's sealed > very well or can moisture get in the chips In theory they're hermetically sealed, in practice it is possible for contaminants to get into plastic packages (particularly). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 10 14:34:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:34:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: <42D09273.90809@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Jul 10, 5 05:13:55 am Message-ID: > > Hi Stefan, > > > Can anyone give me some more information about a Teleprint 390 ? > Teleprint 390 is an original Teletype ASR 33 in another cover. That's > all. There is NO (!!) other difference. The Teleprint cover is made of Is the 'call control unit' -- the electronics chassis on the right hand side -- the same? I have a Data Dynamics machine (and I think it's a model 390) where the mechaical bits are normal Teletype ones, but the call control unit is very different. It's built on a couple of PCBs (!) and can handle both RS232 and current loop interfaces. > metal and has a light. That makes the machine more comfortable and more > quiet. > > > I have one now and I think its pretty cool, works just fine but it would > > be nice to know some background information. > See above. You don't need any more info. Or do you need service manuals > for the cover??? Believe it or not, the Teletype manuals for the Model 33 do have cleaning and lubrication charts for the cover... -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 10 15:51:41 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:51:41 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121028701.20260.65.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-08 at 23:51 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Actually, I'd not heard of the blue-cased machines before. Maybe they're > > in standard off-the-shelf instrument cases rather than with RML logos, > > panel cut-outs etc.? > > The black case is a standard (Vero iIRC) case. It was designed to take a > 19" rack chassis, but RML just mounted the PSU and card guides inside. > OK, the cutouts and logos are custom, but that's all. Yep, that's certainly what it looks like anyway... > > Oh, Xebec board in my fileserver is an S1410, for which I have a manual > > and a couple of spare boards, so I can do some messing around with a PC > > parallel port driver. There's even a sample Z80 interface schematic in > > the back of the manual that's probably adaptable... > > > > Still concerned about timings though as some of the timing diagrams do > > have upper constraints on signal changes (a lot of them only specify a > > minimum limit). Time will tell if the PC's port is quick enough... > > I think (wihtout trying it), you can go as slowly as you like. Having had a better read of the timing diagrams, that looks to be the case. The critical one is the time between the target asserting REQ and the controller asserting ACK - but in all 'simple' SASI/SCSI interfaces that bit's done in hardware via a flipflop, so time taken for the software-driven part doesn't actually matter. Time to throw a few chips together and have a play around I think... cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 10 15:57:53 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <20050710131212.3fe9944a.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050710111858.1cc188b2.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050710131212.3fe9944a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050710135051.H50937@shell.lmi.net> > I'm a "superior elite" because I pointed out what an idiot someone is > for doing something superiorly idiotic? How does that work? Hmmmm. Howzbout: find the two highest bidders from that auction; pick cardboard boxes at random from the warehouse, . . . "it has cards and wires in it, and SOMEWHERE there might be an Apple 1, or Altair prototypes,...." From hachti at hachti.de Sun Jul 10 16:03:13 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:03:13 +0200 Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D18D11.5030004@hachti.de> Hi, > Is the 'call control unit' -- the electronics chassis on the right hand > side -- the same? On *my* 390 there is a slightly different "call control unit". But I have several 33s and nearly each has a different ccu. Normally you don't have to worry about that if you have a current loop device in working condition. There are also a lot of different wiring options for the machine..... > where the mechaical bits are normal Teletype ones, but the > call control unit is very different. It's built on a couple of PCBs (!) > and can handle both RS232 and current loop interfaces. Hey, that's cool. PCBs are normal in all CCUs. It will be hard to find schmematics for that. > Believe it or not, the Teletype manuals for the Model 33 do have cleaning > and lubrication charts for the cover... :-) ... but there's no information about glueing together broken pieces of grey plastic.... :-) -- Philipp From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jul 10 17:02:33 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 18:02:33 -0400 Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: <42D18D11.5030004@hachti.de> References: <42D18D11.5030004@hachti.de> Message-ID: <42D19AF9.nail46A11G7CC@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > There are also a lot of different wiring options for the machine..... That's what has always baffled me. There's a magnet driver, for the printing mechanism. There's an open/close switch, for the keyboard. There are analogous things for the punch too. But... there are literally hundreds of contacts spread out between a dozen or so Molex connectors inside the machine. I realize that these handle every option under the sun, and probably a couple other suns that I've never seen too. But turning such a simple electomecahical machine into such a maze of plugs must've taken a couple of committees. Tim. From allain at panix.com Sun Jul 10 17:17:15 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 18:17:15 -0400 Subject: Computer Museum References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><20050707114802.M5021@localhost><1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050710011909.G1403@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <007e01c5859d$212a30e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> re: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 1:28 AM (PDT) {Paraphrasing} Popular hobbyist support for the Classiccmp list can been reduced to practically zero by allowing extremist goons, and sicko loonies to comment freely. The dwindling contributorship that remains will lead to fewer and fewer interesting threads. John A. or ...has led to... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 10 17:35:24 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:35:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: <42D18D11.5030004@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Jul 10, 5 11:03:13 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > > Is the 'call control unit' -- the electronics chassis on the right hand > > side -- the same? > On *my* 390 there is a slightly different "call control unit". But I > have several 33s and nearly each has a different ccu. Normally you don't There is one Teletype call control unit that was used in the version that had a built-in 20mA loop interface and no modem. This is the version that was supposed to be directly connected to the computer's interface, and it's the version most commonly found. > have to worry about that if you have a current loop device in working > condition. There are also a lot of different wiring options for the No, but it certainly matters if you have to repair it... > machine..... > > > where the mechaical bits are normal Teletype ones, but the > > call control unit is very different. It's built on a couple of PCBs (!) > > and can handle both RS232 and current loop interfaces. > Hey, that's cool. PCBs are normal in all CCUs. The Teletype one I menitoned has one little PCB in the selector magnet driver (the reader PSU, also on a PCB, is not strictly part of the CCU, even). There's a lot of hard-wiring too. The Data Dynamics one, IIRC, has 3 PCBs in it. One carries all the Molex connectors at the back, which the mechanical parts plug into. The others contain the reader PSU, singalling PSU, selector magnet driver, etc. Almost no components no on the PSU. > It will be hard to find schmematics for that. Yes, but probably not too hard to trace out by hand if need be. > > > Believe it or not, the Teletype manuals for the Model 33 do have cleaning > > and lubrication charts for the cover... > :-) > ... but there's no information about glueing together broken pieces of > grey plastic.... :-) The best way to do this IMHO is to put the bits together and run a brush dipped in dichloromethane along the cracks. This will disolve the plastic and weld the parts together. Now take some cotton fabric, put it over the repair on the inside of the case, and brush it over with the dichloromethane. When the plastic has softened, force the fabric into it. The result is a fairly strong repair... -tony From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 10 18:08:17 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:08:17 -0700 Subject: Berkeley Softworks IRQ Manager Board Message-ID: <42D1AA61.6B20F647@rain.org> I found a couple of these in the dregs of the bazaar remains, and am curious what they do. Google showed they were used in the Apple IIe, but that is all I've been able to find. Anyone have more information about how they were used? Thanks! From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 10 20:30:32 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:30:32 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest Message-ID: <00cd01c585b8$213671a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> So, anyone else from the St. Louis area going to VCF Midwest? I'll likely be driving up friday, driving back sunday. Riders welcome. Jay From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 10 21:03:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <008201c5857b$66e4f600$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > It is in the attitude and presentation. Lots of people have great > knowledge of a specific small niche and general knowledge of everything > else. When you start calling people names and making fun of them because > they do not have the vast knowledge of some particular niche that you do > you come off as elitist and a jerk. How would you feel if you went to > the doctor because you think you had some disease and the doctor called > his other medical buddies into the room and started calling you an idiot > because you misdiagnosed the "simple" condition and they all pointed and > laughed at you? What the fuck are you talking about now? If I have to spell this out for you then you're as big an idiot as the guy you're trying to defend. > I am wasting my time typing this up. You sure did. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 10 21:07:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <20050710131212.3fe9944a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > I'm a "superior elite" because I pointed out what an idiot someone is > > for doing something superiorly idiotic? How does that work? > > You spoke of that individual in the manner in which one who is in a > clique speaks to other members about outsiders. I'm wrong for I ridiculing someone for being a complete moron? Again, how does that work? Look, this is the last time I'll explain this: these guys (buyer and seller) are fucking idiots, and if by ridiculing them it means they will go away then I can't think of a better thing that could happen. I absolutely do not want people that stupid coming into my favorite pastime and screwing it up because they are incapable of smelling what was obviously a scam. Get it? Good. Shut up. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 10 21:10:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <20050710135051.H50937@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I'm a "superior elite" because I pointed out what an idiot someone is > > for doing something superiorly idiotic? How does that work? > > Hmmmm. > Howzbout: find the two highest bidders from that auction; > pick cardboard boxes at random from the warehouse, . . . > "it has cards and wires in it, and SOMEWHERE there might be an Apple 1, > or Altair prototypes,...." That's really not a half bad idea. Is it legal to take advantage of stupid people? If so, it shouldn't be. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 10 21:14:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Berkeley Softworks IRQ Manager Board In-Reply-To: <42D1AA61.6B20F647@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I found a couple of these in the dregs of the bazaar remains, and am > curious what they do. Google showed they were used in the Apple IIe, but > that is all I've been able to find. Anyone have more information about > how they were used? Thanks! These sound vaguely familiar. I am pretty sure they were used in conjunction with GEOS (a Berkeley Softworks product) on the Apple ][ to give it the IRQ support needed for that OS to run properly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 10 21:24:09 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:24:09 -0500 Subject: Apple et. all Message-ID: <00eb01c585bf$9e819f70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> C'mon folks, let's all tone down the politics and rhetoric and attendant attitudes. Things have been going quite well, let's not get into this kind of diversion. Move along... nothing to see here... Jay From tomj at wps.com Sun Jul 10 21:26:20 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public funding for the "Arts" Re: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <42D175D8.1020508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42D13F0C.3070901@mdrconsult.com> <42D175D8.1020508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050710192534.T1082@fiche.wps.com> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, woodelf wrote: > Bit bucket full -- redirecting output to console. > Computers are not art but science ... History however > is needed in all forms however. We're talking about history, which is culture, not products. There mere fact that some arbitrarily old machine (say: LGP-30) would have to be contextualized in its 1950's context clearly shows that. Second, computers -- as products -- are not science. Science is not technology, and technology isn't science (the subsuming of science *into* technological production is another story). Computers are products, not made by 'scientists' but produced in factories by the lowest-skilled label it's possible to get away with. Third, most museums try to appeal to a broad swath of humanity, not just nerds. Computers exist in culture, for purposes of all kinds (which has clearly changed; from 40's hydrodynamics to 00's Grand Theft Auto -- a good museum will contextualize all this. I am fairly high nerd -- yet I care a lot about the culture in which this crap exists, who made them, why, ramifications of use, etc. It's art, and history, and historiography, with a bit of science and a tinier bit of technology. Nerds like us can get a doc set and pore over the schematics; most people will want more. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 10 21:33:04 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Berkeley Softworks IRQ Manager Board In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Jul 10, 5 07:14:49 pm" Message-ID: <200507110233.TAA18370@floodgap.com> > > I found a couple of these in the dregs of the bazaar remains, and am > > curious what they do. Google showed they were used in the Apple IIe, but > > that is all I've been able to find. Anyone have more information about > > how they were used? Thanks! > > These sound vaguely familiar. I am pretty sure they were used in > conjunction with GEOS (a Berkeley Softworks product) on the Apple ][ to > give it the IRQ support needed for that OS to run properly. Yup, that's exactly what they are for. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- /etc/motd: /earth is 98% full. please delete anyone you can. --------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 10 22:10:03 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:10:03 -0600 Subject: Public funding for the "Arts" Re: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <20050710192534.T1082@fiche.wps.com> References: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42D13F0C.3070901@mdrconsult.com> <42D175D8.1020508@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050710192534.T1082@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <42D1E30B.5020900@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: > On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, woodelf wrote: > Second, computers -- as products -- are not science. Science is > not technology, and technology isn't science (the subsuming of > science *into* technological production is another story). > Computers are products, not made by 'scientists' but produced in > factories by the lowest-skilled label it's possible to get away > with. That sounds just like the underware I just bought. Made in India,USA or some other third world country. Where is the made in Canada label? It is sad to say computer development is in the hands of bean counters. Now how about using nice slow organic plastic transitors and make vacuum tube speed computers. Now that would be 3rd world techology. The real advancement for the future is to recycle our envorment and that is not about making $$$$ sadly. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Jul 10 22:20:44 2005 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:20:44 EDT Subject: Berkeley Softworks IRQ Manager Board Message-ID: <8d.2abf1a80.30033f8c@aol.com> >>In a message dated 7/10/2005 10:22:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vcf at siconic.com >>writes: >>On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: >>> I found a couple of these in the dregs of the bazaar remains, and am >>> curious what they do. Google showed they were used in the Apple IIe, but >>> that is all I've been able to find. Anyone have more information about >>> how they were used? Thanks! >>These sound vaguely familiar. I am pretty sure they were used in >>conjunction with GEOS (a Berkeley Softworks product) on the Apple ][ to >>give it the IRQ support needed for that OS to run properly. Hmmm, now that sounds familiar to me. Is it a tiny little card? If so, it did indeed come with GEOS and you had to put it in the //e to get the mouse to work. The copy of GEOS I got at the time had a mouse included and had an option to get 3.5 disks which I did even though I only had 5.25 drives at the time. My copy of GEOS is around here somewhere and I got several other BS applications for it as well. From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 11 01:08:46 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:08:46 -0500 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? Message-ID: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> This weekend, while picking up a large donation of Commodore equipment (~2000 pounds, the truck springs bottomed out :-), I also secured a 3B2/310. Alas, I'm not at all up on this type of machine. Google brought up some information, but I'd appreciate any personal anecdotes or information. Jim P.S. In other news, the CBM donation was well worth picking up. A prototype Commodore 65 was included. -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Jul 11 02:52:29 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:52:29 +0200 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20050711063008.C627F39541@linux.local> Hi Jim, was there a "C 900" included ? .... ... i'm still looking for such a beast ! Ciao Bernd On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:08:46 -0500, Jim Brain wrote: >This weekend, while picking up a large donation of Commodore equipment >(~2000 pounds, the truck springs bottomed out :-), I also secured a >3B2/310. Alas, I'm not at all up on this type of machine. Google >brought up some information, but I'd appreciate any personal anecdotes >or information. > >Jim > >P.S. In other news, the CBM donation was well worth picking up. A >prototype Commodore 65 was included. > > >-- >Jim Brain, Brain Innovations >brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com >Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! > > > > Bernd Kopriva Phone: ++49-7195-179452 Weilerstr. 24 E-Mail: bernd at kopriva.de D-71397 Leutenbach Germany From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jul 11 04:29:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 02:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, Jim Brain wrote: > P.S. In other news, the CBM donation was well worth picking up. A > prototype Commodore 65 was included. Do tell. How did you score this load? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 11 05:24:32 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:24:32 +0000 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> References: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <1121077472.21744.11.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-11 at 01:08 -0500, Jim Brain wrote: > This weekend, while picking up a large donation of Commodore equipment > (~2000 pounds, the truck springs bottomed out :-), I also secured a > 3B2/310. Alas, I'm not at all up on this type of machine. Google > brought up some information, but I'd appreciate any personal anecdotes > or information. I picked up a 3B2/400 a while ago for the museum - one of the same family as the 310 (IIRC they're the same machine, but the 400 has more expansion slots and drive bays). In case you haven't discovered this, AT&T sold the same line of machines (I'm not sure who actually invented it) - a Google for "ATT 3B2" turns up a lot more hits than the Olivetti route, including a FAQ. I imagine that if you're in the US then your machine's badged as an AT&T anyway :) I get the impression the whole line was pretty popular back in the day, at least on this side of the pond - why the machines aren't more common I don't know (just as DEC are so much more common in the bigger machine class, Sun hardware seems to have drowned out the likes of machines such as the 3B2) We don't have any installation media for our 3B2, or manuals - it did come with a SCSI board and a nice external SCSI QIC tape drive though. cheers Jules From pechter at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 06:00:41 2005 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:00:41 -0400 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <20050711063008.C627F39541@linux.local> References: <20050711063008.C627F39541@linux.local> Message-ID: <42D25159.8030109@gmail.com> This was the box System V Release 4 Unix was ported on. The Amiga Unix was based on the AT&T SVR4 code -- an old colleague of mine worked on both at AT&T and Commodore. My wife owned one as well... it was AT&T's attempt to (pre-NCR) go intot the commercial computer business against DEC and Sun and the early office automation/mini/workstation folks. It had an AT&T designed 32 bit microcomputer. The 3b product line ran from 3b20 (ex-telephone-switch brains) through the 3b2/310 up through at least a 3b2/1000. They all ran SysVRel 3.2 and later SVR4 Unix. TCP was an expensive add-on product. Bill Bernd Kopriva wrote: >Hi Jim, >was there a "C 900" included ? .... >... i'm still looking for such a beast ! > >Ciao Bernd > >On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:08:46 -0500, Jim Brain wrote: > > > >>This weekend, while picking up a large donation of Commodore equipment >>(~2000 pounds, the truck springs bottomed out :-), I also secured a >>3B2/310. Alas, I'm not at all up on this type of machine. Google >>brought up some information, but I'd appreciate any personal anecdotes >>or information. >> >>Jim >> >>P.S. In other news, the CBM donation was well worth picking up. A >>prototype Commodore 65 was included. >> >> >>-- >>Jim Brain, Brain Innovations >>brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com >>Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >Bernd Kopriva Phone: ++49-7195-179452 >Weilerstr. 24 E-Mail: bernd at kopriva.de >D-71397 Leutenbach >Germany > > > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 11 07:14:37 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 05:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> from Jim Brain at "Jul 11, 5 01:08:46 am" Message-ID: <200507111214.FAA16954@floodgap.com> > P.S. In other news, the CBM donation was well worth picking up. A > prototype Commodore 65 was included. *grumble and want to know how I can score such deals ...* -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's not illogical to believe in God. -------------------------------------- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 11 07:33:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:33:26 +0000 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <200507111214.FAA16954@floodgap.com> References: <200507111214.FAA16954@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1121085206.21763.19.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-11 at 05:14 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > P.S. In other news, the CBM donation was well worth picking up. A > > prototype Commodore 65 was included. > > *grumble and want to know how I can score such deals ...* Luck and a bit of hard work :) It's also just as important to have contacts who *want* stuff as it is having good contacts for getting hold of things, otherwise you end up drowning in items that are of no interest to you. It's always worth picking up carloads of stuff that people are getting rid of though as occasionally there's something really good in there that's worth keeping. I hate to think how many plain old BBC micros and the like have passed through my hands over the years, but every once in a while there's some real gems in there. Providing I find homes for the things I don't want (rather than throwing them out!) I'm happy making the effort to pick up and sort out this stuff... cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jul 11 07:50:19 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:50:19 -0400 Subject: WAS .... PDP-11/23+ and rx-02 drives, need help!!! References: <42D1346F.9010803@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <17106.27403.39733.354643@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> I have cleaned them with board cleaner and checked the switches >> for operation. Some of the IC pins are getting rusty. Are the IC's >> sealed very well or can moisture get in the chips Tony> In theory they're hermetically sealed, in practice it is Tony> possible for contaminants to get into plastic packages Tony> (particularly). Plastic packages are NOT hermetically sealed, which is why metal/ceramic packages are the traditional package for Milspec applications. I'm not sure if they still are always used there, but certainly you're unlikely to find plastic packages in, say, spaceflight applications. Plastic keeps crud out quite well, and casual exposure to moisture shouldn't be any problem. After all, PCBs are washed after assembly to take off the flux. But hermetic -- no. paul From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 11 08:56:49 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:56:49 -0500 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <20050711063008.C627F39541@linux.local> References: <20050711063008.C627F39541@linux.local> Message-ID: <42D27AA1.6050808@jbrain.com> Bernd Kopriva wrote: >Hi Jim, >was there a "C 900" included ? .... >... i'm still looking for such a beast ! > > Could you give a little more detail? Is it SW or HW? What should I look for? I am swimming in obscure parts today. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Jul 11 09:16:50 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:16:50 +0200 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? => Commodore C900 In-Reply-To: <42D27AA1.6050808@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20050711125434.F2B1539541@linux.local> Hi Jim, the "C 900" is a Z-8001 based computer, that never got into production ... ... but some hundred machines were delivered to developers. You can find more on that machine on http://www.homecomputer.de/pages/f_commodore.html?Commodore_C900.html or http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/900.html Ciao Bernd On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:56:49 -0500, Jim Brain wrote: >Bernd Kopriva wrote: > >>Hi Jim, >>was there a "C 900" included ? .... >>... i'm still looking for such a beast ! >> >> >Could you give a little more detail? Is it SW or HW? What should I >look for? I am swimming in obscure parts today. > >Jim > > >-- >Jim Brain, Brain Innovations >brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com >Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! > > > > From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 11 09:20:50 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:20:50 -0500 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D28042.8050205@jbrain.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, Jim Brain wrote: > > > >>P.S. In other news, the CBM donation was well worth picking up. A >>prototype Commodore 65 was included. >> >> > >Do tell. How did you score this load? > > > Anticlimactically, it dropped in my lap. About February, an email came in asking a few of us if we wanted equipment. The 77 year old owner had not touched the equipment in years, and decided it needed to go (taking up room). I responded affirmatively. Further details emerged, that the man had been given 3 or 4 other collections as friends departed the scene. I also inferred the owner was a packrat. After some scheduling conflicts, I was able to hike over to Kenosha, WI last weekend. I had originally planned to take a small (4x8) trailer, but decided the owner must be exaggerating the amount of equipment, so I just took a small platform bike rack and some moving boxes. I arrived to find the "mother of all packrats". I rather wished I had brought the trailer. For various reasons, the owner had not started packing, so we spent 8 years packing and loading. I managed to get it all in the shortbed quad cab truck (with topper), but not a square foot to spare. Among the pieces I saw in passing as I stuffed the truck: 2 Extended Density CMD FD-4000 3.5" drives 10 boxes of the ED media for them. 4 FD-2000 drives 3 C128s 1 C128D 1 CMD HD 1 RAMLink 2 SuperCPU units (1 128, 1 64) 1 C65 (including 220 PS brick and step up transformer) The 3B2 A500 A1000 2 collections of Fred Fish disks 4 or 5 collections of Commodore magazines, including Creative Computing, early Compute!, Ahoy!, Compute's Gazette, Commodore Power/Play, Commodore Microcomputing, etc. I left some UNIX Review, C User's Journal, Dr. Dobb's, etc. If someone is close to WI and interested in those mags, let me know. An Apple //c complete system A TRS-80 Coco3 system Tons of 5.25" disks Lots of commercial software, including disk masters, boxes, manuals, registration cards, etc. To give an idea of the breadth of collecting, the man gave me a sack of freebie ISP disks/CDs (AOL, Earthlink, Compuserve, etc.) Some are from the start of that fad. I started unpacking last night, and quickly realized I am woefully not equipped for this amount of stuff. It's going to take me a month to sort. I'm putting my 7 year old in charge of cataloguing the magazines. At least I unloaded enough so the overload bumpers aren't mashed against the axle now. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 11 09:22:18 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:22:18 -0500 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <1121077472.21744.11.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> <1121077472.21744.11.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42D2809A.9070105@jbrain.com> Jules Richardson wrote: >We don't have any installation media for our 3B2, or manuals - it did >come with a SCSI board and a nice external SCSI QIC tape drive though. > > As I was leaving, the owner gave me the boot disks and a tape (OS load?) for the unit. They may have writing on them, let me know if that might help. -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Jul 11 09:25:31 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:25:31 -0400 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? => Commodore C900 In-Reply-To: <20050711125434.F2B1539541@linux.local> References: <20050711125434.F2B1539541@linux.local> Message-ID: <42D2815B.7040100@atarimuseum.com> Pretty cool sounding machine.... this was the machine in development at Commodore before they bought Amiga, right? Curt Bernd Kopriva wrote: >Hi Jim, >the "C 900" is a Z-8001 based computer, that never got into production ... >... but some hundred machines were delivered to developers. > >You can find more on that machine on >http://www.homecomputer.de/pages/f_commodore.html?Commodore_C900.html or >http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/900.html > >Ciao Bernd > >On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:56:49 -0500, Jim Brain wrote: > > > >>Bernd Kopriva wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hi Jim, >>>was there a "C 900" included ? .... >>>... i'm still looking for such a beast ! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Could you give a little more detail? Is it SW or HW? What should I >>look for? I am swimming in obscure parts today. >> >>Jim >> >> >>-- >>Jim Brain, Brain Innovations >>brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com >>Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/45 - Release Date: 7/9/2005 From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Jul 11 09:48:03 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:48:03 +0200 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? => Commodore C900 In-Reply-To: <42D2815B.7040100@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20050711132548.1574639541@linux.local> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:25:31 -0400, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >Pretty cool sounding machine.... this was the machine in development at >Commodore before they bought Amiga, right? > yes, the Amiga deal killed the development of that machine ... ... and maybe a wider usage of the Z8000 processor family :( > >Curt > > >Bernd Kopriva wrote: > >>Hi Jim, >>the "C 900" is a Z-8001 based computer, that never got into production ... >>... but some hundred machines were delivered to developers. >> >>You can find more on that machine on >>http://www.homecomputer.de/pages/f_commodore.html?Commodore_C900.html or >>http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/900.html >> >>Ciao Bernd >> >>On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:56:49 -0500, Jim Brain wrote: >> From nick at computer-history.org Wed Jul 6 18:25:42 2005 From: nick at computer-history.org (computer-history.org) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 18:25:42 -0500 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? References: <20050701151552.5cc9ba50.chenmel@earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050706184935.03b7c448@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <001601c58282$07a96af0$7a00a8c0@Millers> > Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these > words: > >>There was nothing the first TRS-80 was that the Apple ][ wasn't. > > Grey? Affordable? From aek at spies.com Wed Jul 6 19:40:45 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:40:45 -0700 Subject: LGP30 pictures Message-ID: <53df2bd8b679a8e4065639752f65fe57@spies.com> I just put the pics from the auction at www.bitsavers.org/pdf/generalPrecision/LGP30pics From aek at spies.com Thu Jul 7 11:34:11 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:34:11 -0700 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 Message-ID: > I think Suns will always be collectable, as they are now. There are some > weird things they have made over the years that people seek. Early machines from the 'workstation wars', Apollo and Tektronix come to mind, may be of interest in the future. There doesn't appear to be much on the technical doc or software side around for these. I tried contacting they guy who was working on the Apollo port for NetBSD to get the tech info he was able to collect, but got nowhere. People seem to have saved the later SGI IRIS (3xxx series) though, probably because of the neat graphics demos. From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Thu Jul 7 15:24:00 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:24:00 -0500 Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507072038.j67KcIlw093750@keith.ezwind.net> I would have to agree. I have been building our collection for about two years now and I have had to move everything twice. I spend a lot of time negotiating space wherever I can find it. Fortunately we are planning a new Engineering Building and my endeavors have spiked the interest of the Dean, so the plans now call for a 10K square foot Engineering museum. Since we have a running start we may get the lion's share of the space. Right now I have about 500 Sq. Ft. for storage. We have various displays in different kinds of cases around the building. Sometime in the next week I will be getting 9 vitrines from a museum project here in Arlington that the voters turned down twice. We will spot them about the building. Well, that is probably not of general interest to the list, but I just wanted to show how much of my time and energy this occupies. We have had no trouble filling the space we have with donations. We have a Sys/36 for example, some PDP/11 peripherals, a complete Four-Phase Systems IV/90 (two racks and two washtubs). I spent about $1K on eBay over a year or so getting small systems and bits and pieces such as some tab cards from WW II. We have a really interesting S-100 collection - two Altair 8800b's, an IMSAI or 2, a slug of Cromemcos and a slug of Vectors. Anyway, yes, space and $ are by far my larger concerns. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE Coach - ICPC Programming Team University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:59 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Computer Museum > > On 7/7/05, Joe R. wrote: > > I agree and I'm waiting to see what happens with this attempt. > > Supposedly he has the backing of ITT Institute. Or it may just be > > another attempt to see what some guy can get people to give him. He > > keeps asking about donations and wants a list of what I > have but I've > > told him that I'd be willing to LOAN him computers and > asked what kind > > of stuff he's looking for and I haven't gotten a > satisfactory reply yet. Time will tell. > > Indeed... getting (most) stuff is the easy part. Space/money > is always the kicker. > > -ethan > > From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Thu Jul 7 15:57:57 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:57:57 -0500 Subject: Scott Steven's c-NET bbs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507072148.j67Lm0Is094453@keith.ezwind.net> You most likely know about it, but this looks promising: http://www.cnetbbs.net/ Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of plato computer > Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 9:34 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Scott Stevens > Subject: Scott Steven's c-NET bbs > > Scott, if you have a copy of c-NET BBS still in existence, or > know of where I can get a copy of it to put on line, I would > love to put up a telnet-based BBS running it. I can assign > an IP address to a serial port and simply use a TTL -> RS232 > level shifting circuit to hook up a 1200- baud emulated > modem. Then, we've got ourselves a C-net bbs. > > Anyone ? > > >Yes, but C-Net is probably dead. C-Net was a popular > Commodore-based > >BBS package. I was active on a few boards that ran it years back- > > get access to > >a > >C64 machine with two (or three) 1541 drives and a 300 baud modem. > > >(sorry for the topic drift) > > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 08:34:04 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 06:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050708133404.3563.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> The scanning frequencies of the EGA and MDA cards should be real close (MDA outputs 348 lines of res, the EGA 350). You shouldn't have a problem there (I won't comment about the jumpering/shorting though), but keep in mind the original IBM mono monitor was very very touchy. If you plugged it into a CGA card, it was known to...ummm...explode... I won't swear to it, but I had thought there was a way of configuring it specifically for a mono monitor. Don't hold me to it though. Tony Duell wrote: > On this topic, I recently located an original IBM Monochrome monitor, so > for me it's now just a matter of pulling out the EGA Techref and > jumpering the IBM EGA card in my AT for EGA monochrome and plugging the One thing a lot of people forget : There's a jumper on the board near the DE9 connector which selects where pin 2 of said DE9 goes (LSB of one of the colours for an EGA monitor, ground for an MDA or CGA monitor). If you set that to the EGA position and then connect an MDA (or for that matter CGA) monitor, you're shorting an output line to ground via the monitor cable. It probably won't do any harm, but why risk it... -tony --------------------------------- Sell on Yahoo! Auctions - No fees. Bid on great items. From cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co Fri Jul 8 12:21:51 2005 From: cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:21:51 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825tape drive) References: Message-ID: <42CEB62F.5B6F30A1@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ Nah, with my luck there would be an earthquake precisely when I was moving all that; there's enough stuff there to kill/bury every single classiccmp'er. And that is California, right? -- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia ---- "I don't know a lot necessarily about the business or the industry, but I know how to kick butt. That's what I do." Jeffrey R. Immelt, General Electric's CEO, to executives of GE's daughter company MSNBC. From hatfield at bellsouth.net Fri Jul 8 15:03:55 2005 From: hatfield at bellsouth.net (hatfield at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:03:55 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 23, Issue 14 References: <200507072024.j67KOU6E055671@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <007f01c583f8$2bce5e00$6101a8c0@DigitalCottage> > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:11:20 -0500 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Re: Time to change the Subject Line! Re: E-bay complaints > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 7/7/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > Isn't there a list member who... passed up an Apple I... >> >> That was me. > > Ow! > > -ethan Still have mine!! Even got my name in the index to the Apple I Replica book... Fred. hatfield at bellsouth.net From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 15:08:38 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: international shipping Message-ID: <20050708200838.6138.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Can anyone tell me the best way to have something shipped from say England or the Netherlands (or Germany). Or even Brazil/Argentina. Or even Australia. I know it's not ever going to be cheap, but when you calculate 20 or so pounds from S.America - $300+, I figure there must be a better way. For those of you who already don't know it, FedEx usually beats UPS by a mile at domestic postage. Perhaps half in alot of cases. But they don't cover as many areas as it seems UPS does. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vrs at email.msn.com Sat Jul 9 10:01:31 2005 From: vrs at email.msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 08:01:31 -0700 Subject: DEC 11/45 build References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><5.2.0.9.0.20050708172331.022bdec0@mail.ubanproductions.com> <005a01c5842a$9e14e6f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: From: "Jay West" > I had written.... > >>I have two other H960 racks, guess I'll have to add one to the /45 and > >>make it a dual bay system. The other H960 will probably go to the 11/34 > >>restoration. > And..... I was wrong. Just checked and I only have one other H960 rack. That > means if I go with a dual bay /45, I have no H960 to mount the /34 in. > Bummer. I'll just have to find a way to mount the /34 in one of those lowboy > white corporate cabinets. Not as common of a setup as the H960's, but I'm > not really up for freighting another H960, trying to find more side > panels... etc. So choosing between the two, I'll use my only other H960 to > make the /45 dualbay. Won't that leave you with another set of side panels -- The ones that would have gone on the 11/34? Vince From gcarrick at cse.uta.edu Sat Jul 9 17:06:04 2005 From: gcarrick at cse.uta.edu (A. G. Carrick) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 17:06:04 -0500 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <42D02F09.4030601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200507092214.j69MExI5016270@keith.ezwind.net> > > Now what is GRID BIAS ... :) > LOL! newbies! ;) From ed at groenenberg.net Sun Jul 10 01:55:22 2005 From: ed at groenenberg.net (Ed) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 08:55:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VAX 3400 available in Alabama Message-ID: <65503.192.168.1.1.1120978522.squirrel@192.168.1.1> Available in near/in Huntsville Alabama, a VAX 3400 + extra's. Please contact him using the email address below. ====== >On Fri, 8 juli, 2005 10:12 pm, wcrouch at cwcinc.net said: > > > > ... Interested in a MicroVax 3400 system > > (multiple drive towers, BA 11/K unibus chassis - > > with interface cards for connecting with the > > MicroVax, multiple xterms, line printer, tape > > drives, documentation, ...)? > > It was the control computer for a multi-gigabit > > per sec Aptec crossbar I/O system. > > > > I also have the aptec. It uses ECL logic, so the > > power supply is 2v at around 1000 amps. 'Makes a > > nice spot-welder! > > From dan.howard at adelphia.net Sun Jul 10 05:51:39 2005 From: dan.howard at adelphia.net (Dan Howard) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 03:51:39 -0700 Subject: Old computers Message-ID: <001d01c5853d$5a313240$07e2a944@ventca.adelphia.net> I have two AT&T unix pc 7300 systems, with manuals, books on unix, and lots of software and an extra monitor plus some upgrades, looking for a good home. If interested e-mail me at dan.howard at adelphia.net with offer. From rimmer at xs4all.nl Sun Jul 10 12:19:51 2005 From: rimmer at xs4all.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:19:51 +0200 Subject: Apple cable ? Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710191928.02dc5408@pop.xs4all.nl> Can anyone tell me what kind of Apple cables these are ? http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/applekabel.jpg Thanks! Stefan. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 11 10:25:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:25:04 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: References: <20050710135051.H50937@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050711112504.00a22100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:10 PM 7/10/05 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >That's really not a half bad idea. Is it legal to take advantage of >stupid people? Sure it is. What do you think lotterys are all about? Joe From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 11 10:51:02 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple cable ? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710191928.02dc5408@pop.xs4all.nl> from Stefan at "Jul 10, 5 07:19:51 pm" Message-ID: <200507111551.IAA13284@floodgap.com> > Can anyone tell me what kind of Apple cables these are ? > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/applekabel.jpg They're *still* LocalTalk cables. :) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- :wq! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jul 11 10:44:22 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <42D28042.8050205@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, Jim Brain wrote: > I arrived to find the "mother of all packrats". I rather wished I had > brought the trailer. For various reasons, the owner had not started > packing, so we spent 8 years packing and loading. I managed to get it > all in the shortbed quad cab truck (with topper), but not a square foot > to spare. 8 years! My gawd, that is epic! ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jul 11 10:48:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825tape drive) In-Reply-To: <42CEB62F.5B6F30A1@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > > Nah, with my luck there would be an earthquake precisely when > I was moving all that; there's enough stuff there > to kill/bury every single classiccmp'er. And that is California, right? I do worry about that. The current arrangement is definitely not earthquake safe. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 11:03:02 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:03:02 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825tape drive) In-Reply-To: References: <42CEB62F.5B6F30A1@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: How do you make a use of this huge collection? From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Jul 11 11:11:10 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:11:10 -0700 Subject: repairing cracked plastic In-Reply-To: <200507110937.j6B9b0ke005444@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507110937.j6B9b0ke005444@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20195b80ff63dc76a9c1fd77331e9bb2@valleyimplants.com> I have had good luck (depends on plastic-see below) with MEK (Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone), works the same way as the dichloromethane, can be acquired in most hardware shops. It doesn't work very well on some of the "alloy" plastics (GE Cyclolloy? mix of polycarbonate and ABS. Superglue doesn't even work here-the plastic disintegrates into a mealy mush). Fortunately, that seems to be only used in newer Suns and PCs. Drywaller's Fiberglass tape might be a good strong inorganic reinforcer, or I sometimes use interfacing (a semi-fabric thing) when I repair books- might work for computers too. In books, it seems to grab the glue better than standard woven fabric. -Scott Quinn From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Jul 11 11:48:31 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:48:31 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 Message-ID: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> My DEC dealer has a RA82 he wants $200 for, and I was thinking of trading him one of my RL02s for it. That's what actually came in this chassis, but I'm really concerned about the power requirements of the disk and controller - I know the KDA50 is a pig, but I do have a separate expansion box for it. My real concern is blowing a breaker in my apartment building. Now, I've read the current surge draw on a RA81 (in the RA81 user guide) is 35A in 110V mode. Is this correct? Also, what are my power bills going to look like running this thing 24/7? A already run one RL02 and the CPU 24/7, and I'm talking about adding an expansion box to it with the KDA50...will I be OK on one 15A circuit? Logic with these numbers says no, but I saw somewhere on the web where a guy said he was running an 11/750, RA82, and some other stuff all off 1 15A circuit. The only way I can see this working is if the drive spins up somehow by trickle charging a cap(or more than just 1) and then spinning up the drive. Can anyone shed any light on this? Will I blow something with this RA disk on my setup? Thanks Julian From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 11 11:51:57 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? Message-ID: <200507111651.JAA26986@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, John Napier wrote: > >> But, I mean, just in terms of getting a response at all, it's harder >> for someone to speak up if they are already judged a "moron". >> I'd love to hear what they actually got, without calling them names >> if it turns out to be an apple //e or whatever. >> >> - Joe >> >> (we've all fucked up at least once. I bought a Bentley for 20K that I >> sold for 6K. e.g.) > >That's not a fuck-up, that's reality. You made the choice knowing >everything. There's no analogy whatsoever to what happened here, which is >someone buying a wooden box with a keyboard on speculation (driven by the >seller's fraud through omission) that it was something else. > >If it does end up being an Apple-1 I will eat my first born. > Hi There is a real good chance that the wood box computer wasn't even found in the same collection as the Apple. the seller just put the two together for effect. Dwight From bdwheele at indiana.edu Mon Jul 11 11:54:13 2005 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:54:13 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> References: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> Message-ID: <1121100853.9089.3.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> I used to run a MVII with an RA82 all plugged in to a cheapie powerstrip without tripping it. Of course, you had to turn on the drive, wait for it to settle and then power up everything else. As far as power costs go...beats me, I kept it at work and let them pay for it :) Brian On Mon, 2005-07-11 at 11:48 -0500, Julian Wolfe wrote: > My DEC dealer has a RA82 he wants $200 for, and I was thinking of trading > him one of my RL02s for it. That's what actually came in this chassis, but > I'm really concerned about the power requirements of the disk and > controller - I know the KDA50 is a pig, but I do have a separate expansion > box for it. My real concern is blowing a breaker in my apartment building. > Now, I've read the current surge draw on a RA81 (in the RA81 user guide) is > 35A in 110V mode. Is this correct? > Also, what are my power bills going to look like running this thing 24/7? A > already run one RL02 and the CPU 24/7, and I'm talking about adding an > expansion box to it with the KDA50...will I be OK on one 15A circuit? Logic > with these numbers says no, but I saw somewhere on the web where a guy said > he was running an 11/750, RA82, and some other stuff all off 1 15A circuit. > The only way I can see this working is if the drive spins up somehow by > trickle charging a cap(or more than just 1) and then spinning up the drive. > > Can anyone shed any light on this? Will I blow something with this RA disk > on my setup? > > Thanks > Julian > > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jul 11 11:49:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825tape drive) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, 9000 VAX wrote: > How do you make a use of this huge collection? www.vintage.org www.vintagetech.com -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 11 11:56:12 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Discrete Component FlipFlop Message-ID: <200507111656.JAA26990@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "woodelf" > >Marvin Johnston wrote: >> Our annual Bazaar was held today with all the leftover stuff now at my >> house ... briefly! In searching through the stuff this afternoon, I >> found several boards that I couldn't identify. One is labeled "FlipFlop" >> and the other "Inverter". I put up a picture of both sides of the >> FlipFlop at: >> >It will only take another 2513 more years to collect the whole computer. >Off Hand the logo on the Flip/flop is you best bet to find who made it. >That is not dec and IBM. > Hi I also noted that I don't see any 3 lead devices? I doubt it was for tubes so where are the transistors? Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 11 12:08:28 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? Message-ID: <200507111708.KAA27014@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Bernd If you should find one, I'd be willing to help you get CP/M-8000 running on it. Dwight >From: "Bernd Kopriva" > >Hi Jim, >was there a "C 900" included ? .... >... i'm still looking for such a beast ! > >Ciao Bernd > >On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:08:46 -0500, Jim Brain wrote: > >>This weekend, while picking up a large donation of Commodore equipment >>(~2000 pounds, the truck springs bottomed out :-), I also secured a >>3B2/310. Alas, I'm not at all up on this type of machine. Google >>brought up some information, but I'd appreciate any personal anecdotes >>or information. >> >>Jim >> >>P.S. In other news, the CBM donation was well worth picking up. A >>prototype Commodore 65 was included. >> >> >>-- >>Jim Brain, Brain Innovations >>brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com >>Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! >> >> >> >> > > >Bernd Kopriva Phone: ++49-7195-179452 >Weilerstr. 24 E-Mail: bernd at kopriva.de >D-71397 Leutenbach >Germany > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Jul 11 12:12:50 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:12:50 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> References: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> Message-ID: <42D2A892.2070504@atarimuseum.com> For the sake of your home, I would recommend getting another additional circuit into your computer room, most homes (unless you request and pay for) have 15a rated circuit wiring and can carry 20a loads if you upgrade the breaker, but if you go above that you are now risking overheat on your wiring and outlets and you could be risking a fire. Curt Julian Wolfe wrote: > My DEC dealer has a RA82 he wants $200 for, and I was thinking of > trading him one of my RL02s for it. That's what actually came in this > chassis, but I'm really concerned about the power requirements of the > disk and controller - I know the KDA50 is a pig, but I do have a > separate expansion box for it. My real concern is blowing a breaker > in my apartment building. Now, I've read the current surge draw on a > RA81 (in the RA81 user guide) is 35A in 110V mode. Is this correct? > Also, what are my power bills going to look like running this thing > 24/7? A already run one RL02 and the CPU 24/7, and I'm talking about > adding an expansion box to it with the KDA50...will I be OK on one 15A > circuit? Logic with these numbers says no, but I saw somewhere on > the web where a guy said he was running an 11/750, RA82, and some > other stuff all off 1 15A circuit. The only way I can see this working > is if the drive spins up somehow by trickle charging a cap(or more > than just 1) and then spinning up the drive. > > Can anyone shed any light on this? Will I blow something with this RA > disk on my setup? > > Thanks > Julian > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/45 - Release Date: 7/9/2005 From marvin at rain.org Mon Jul 11 12:13:37 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:13:37 -0700 Subject: Discrete Component FlipFlop References: <200507111700.j6BH03fS010781@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42D2A8C1.FAABC426@rain.org> > >Marvin Johnston wrote: > >> Our annual Bazaar was held today with all the leftover stuff now at my > >> house ... briefly! In searching through the stuff this afternoon, I > >> found several boards that I couldn't identify. One is labeled "FlipFlop" > >> and the other "Inverter". I put up a picture of both sides of the > >> FlipFlop at: http://www.rain.org/~marvin/flipflop.jpg > I also noted that I don't see any 3 lead devices? I doubt > it was for tubes so where are the transistors? > Dwight The transistors are inside the plastic pieces at each end of the board. The flipflop board has one on each side, and the inverter has two on each side. The plastic pieces are riveted to the board, so I can't easily see the transistor ID. I think I've checked almost everything now, and there are three flipflop boards and two inverters. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Mon Jul 11 12:33:11 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:33:11 +0200 Subject: international shipping In-Reply-To: <20050708200838.6138.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050708200838.6138.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050711193008.02ddaff8@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Hmm my experience with destinations is that Fedex beats UPS with that too! I am talking exotic destinations though. Anyway, up to 20 kilo's from the Netherlands to outside europe its best to ship via the Dutch postal office. They dont send anything heavier than 20 kilo's so you'll need to turn to FedEx or some other company. Stefan. At 22:08 8-7-2005, you wrote: >Can anyone tell me the best way to have something shipped from say >England or the Netherlands (or Germany). Or even Brazil/Argentina. >Or even Australia. I know it's not ever going to be cheap, but when >you calculate 20 or so pounds from S.America - $300+, I figure there >must be a better way. > For those of you who already don't know it, FedEx usually beats > UPS by a mile at domestic postage. Perhaps half in alot of cases. > But they don't cover as many areas as it seems UPS does. > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 12:25:25 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:25:25 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> References: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> Message-ID: On 7/11/05, Julian Wolfe wrote: > My DEC dealer has a RA82 he wants $200 for, and I was thinking of trading > him one of my RL02s for it. That's what actually came in this chassis, but > I'm really concerned about the power requirements of the disk and > controller - I know the KDA50 is a pig, but I do have a separate expansion > box for it. My real concern is blowing a breaker in my apartment building. > Now, I've read the current surge draw on a RA81 (in the RA81 user guide) is > 35A in 110V mode. Is this correct? The surge _is_ over 30A, but it seems to be brief enough that you _should_ be OK re: tripping breakers, but my experience is in a house where I _knew_ it was on its own circuit. Steady-state draw is about 8A, so to avoid problems, power up the drive, wait 30 sec to stabilize (should go faster than that, but better safe than sorry), _then_ power up the rest of the system. Unfortunately, in an apartment setting, it's possible you don't have a) 12 ga wiring, and b) breakers feeding small numbers of outlets. What if your neighbor (or you) fire up the microwave that's on the same circuit... > Also, what are my power bills going to look like running this thing 24/7? A > already run one RL02 and the CPU 24/7, and I'm talking about adding an > expansion box to it with the KDA50...will I be OK on one 15A circuit? Power bills? An RA81 (similar draw to RA82) is about a 1000W device. So just the drive alone is going to cost 24kWH per day to run - if your rate is abour $0.11/kWH, that's $2.64/day for just the drive. I have an 8300 in the basement with an RA81 and MBA 2.4GB SDI disk box. I use the RA81 only as required (i.e., not much), and run things off of the dual 5.25" ESDI drives in the MBA box. Much cheaper. I also tend to run a uVAX-II more than the 8300 - same amount of RAM, and with an RD54, not _too_ bad in terms of power/performance, but the disk size limits me to VMS 6.1 (I think that's what's on it - haven't used it in over a year with my travels). I could throw a KDA50 in there, but as you point out, it would need its own expansion BA23 for power (I have it, but haven't attached it). So... figure on at least $3/day for the CPU and disks, more or less, depending on your rates. You can see that after a couple of months, you might as well drop the $200 or so on a Qbus SCSI controller... you'll pay more than that in power plus the cost of the RA82. Options include a smaller SDI drive (RA90, or a smaller still RA7x), or an ESDI/SMD controller and a smaller drive than an RA82. If you already _had_ the RA82, it might not be too bad, or if the RA82 were free. To have to _pay_ $200 plus S&H, you might as well put that money towards a Qbus SCSI controller and use an old 4GB SCSI drive. Cheaper in the long run, and unless you have a thing for 100% DEC end-to-end, still a period solution (and it will fit in the BA23!) -ethan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 11 12:32:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <200507111732.KAA27038@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> > Hi Tony >> > I'm proposing an experiment for you since I know that >> > you are the type that would actually try it. >> >> I am going to try this, although probably not tonight... >> >> However, even if it does bahave as you suggest, it still doesn't explain >> _why_... I will have to think about this some more... > >Sorry to follow up my own message, but I spent last night thinking about >it, and I think I now understand it. > >The things that are important are (a) the belt is elastic and therefore >stretches, and (b) the drage from the spools means that the tension in >the belt is not the same all the way round. There is more tension in the >belt on the takeup side than on the supply side. > >Supppos that a certain length of belt has gone past the supply spool (and >thus wound off that length of tape). As it goes round the takeup spool the >belt will be stretched a little more, so it will move the surface of that >spool by more than the amount that the surface of the supply spool was >moved. It will try to wind more tape onto the takeup spool, thus >tensioning the tape. > >For obvious reasons this effect is small. It helps to have the tape >fairly well tensioned before using the cartridge. If you're reassembling >a defective one, I'd tension the tape as much as possible by hand. > >If you could make a cartridge with the belt round the outside, and with >the drive roller possitioned far enough forward to let the bead get in >contact with the tape (inside the loop formed by the belt), it wouldn't >work. There'd be more movement on the supply side, the tape would get >ever more slack. > >-tony > Hi That is why I mentioned to Joe that you need to pull on the supply side tape a little to get it to take up the slack. That is what I recall doing when I replaced the bad roller. I don't recall how I got the last little bit of slack out of the tape. I remember holding onto it with a ChemWipe to keep my finger oils off the tape but that only works until is gets close. One still needs to suck in the last bit of slack before putting it into a machine. Like I said, it was counter intuitive to pull on the supply side to get the take-up side to suck in the tape but that is what I recall. It wasn't until now, years later, that I thought about how it could work. Thinking about how the Bernoulli's principle worked with a elastic band helped to figure it out. The more stretched band at the take-up has to have a higher surface speed. It should be fun to confirm by the spool experiment :) It was a fun thought experiment anyway. Dwight From computer at officereach.net Mon Jul 11 13:11:50 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:11:50 -0700 Subject: international shipping In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050711193008.02ddaff8@mail.zeelandnet.nl> References: <20050708200838.6138.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.0.20050711193008.02ddaff8@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: By far, call up DHL and tell them taht you are doing international shipping, and they will put together a price schedule for you that will beat anything, hands off. As part of the pricing schedule, they will automatically give you extra-special domestic shipping as well. it's way worth it. Only problem with domestic shipping is that DHL doesn't require signatures, but other than that, it saves a load. -----Original Message----- From: Stefan To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:33:11 +0200 Subject: Re: international shipping > Hmm my experience with destinations is that Fedex beats UPS with that > too! > I am talking exotic destinations though. Anyway, up to 20 kilo's from > the Netherlands to outside europe its best to ship via the Dutch > postal office. They dont send anything heavier than 20 kilo's so > you'll need to turn to FedEx or some other company. > > Stefan. > > At 22:08 8-7-2005, you wrote: > >Can anyone tell me the best way to have something shipped from say > >England or the Netherlands (or Germany). Or even Brazil/Argentina. > >Or even Australia. I know it's not ever going to be cheap, but when > >you calculate 20 or so pounds from S.America - $300+, I figure there > >must be a better way. > > For those of you who already don't know it, FedEx usually beats > > UPS by a mile at domestic postage. Perhaps half in alot of cases. > > But they don't cover as many areas as it seems UPS does. > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 11 13:09:11 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: international shipping Message-ID: <200507111809.LAA27046@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "plato computer" > >By far, call up DHL and tell them taht you are doing international ---snip--- Hi But how does one ship a rack mounted machine that weighs about 80 lbs and is 15 inches tall?? Dwight From brian at quarterbyte.com Mon Jul 11 13:27:55 2005 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:27:55 -0700 Subject: univac something or other Message-ID: <42D257BB.18809.2D5759B0@localhost> Anyone know what this is? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7335084988 It appears too be a CRT terminal of some sort, but the box is pretty large, which is odd. Key to disk maybe? From the styling it looks like late 70's, early 80's? This is the item's second time up. I've written to the seller twice for more info but he's not bothered to respond. I'm curious to know if anyone recognizes this. Google didn't turn anything up. Brian From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jul 11 13:47:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <42D2A892.2070504@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > For the sake of your home, I would recommend getting another additional > circuit into your computer room, most homes (unless you request and pay > for) have 15a rated circuit wiring and can carry 20a loads if you > upgrade the breaker, but if you go above that you are now risking > overheat on your wiring and outlets and you could be risking a fire. NO! NO! NO! BAD ADVICE! One should never replace a breaker with a higher rated one unless they are sure the wiring can accomodate the increased amperage. A 15A breaker requires 14 guage wire. A 20A breaker requires 12 guage wire. Putting a 20A breaker on 14 guage wire is flirting with disaster. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From computer at officereach.net Mon Jul 11 14:05:37 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:05:37 -0700 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: References: <42D2A892.2070504@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Every time I open up the back of a monitor or computer power supply, I'm flirting with Disaster! I'm a good flirt, I've been told. I dunno - it seems a miracle to me that I'm still alive, in fact. ;-) Good advice , tho; if not the fact that it's probably not smart to re-wire the breaker, it will certainly invalidate your insurance if anything ever happens in your home, even if it's unrelated; the insurance company will find a way to make it as such. > > NO! NO! NO! BAD ADVICE! > > One should never replace a breaker with a higher rated one unless they > are > sure the wiring can accomodate the increased amperage. A 15A breaker > requires 14 guage wire. A 20A breaker requires 12 guage wire. Putting > a > 20A breaker on 14 guage wire is flirting with disaster. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From tomj at wps.com Mon Jul 11 14:13:30 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <200507101851.j6AIpPhn024463@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507101851.j6AIpPhn024463@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050711121251.Q1150@fiche.wps.com> This sounds really great, a good match of ponderous resources and local talent. On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Out here in NJ, we've been extremely lucky with the new-ish local club, > MARCH (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists). There's a new science > musuem being built at a former army base, they already have official > non-profit status, and they even inherited an existing computer collection. > They found our group, and we found them, via mutual contacts at the Trenton > Computer Festival. Turns out they wanted to find a group of people who > could manage their collection. So basically they are "giving" us a museum > to run. A few of us already toured the base and they've got dozens and > dozens of acres of land and empty buildings. At one point they took us to a > building called "the library" (the base was also a college at one point) and > they said, oh, that building's yours! We also learned that part of the > collection we're getting includes an actual ENIAC card. Cool! > > Our club isn't listed yet, but the facility itself is at infoage.org (our > club is temporarily at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ ) ... > I guess the moral of all this is that it's helpful to make computer museums > part of existing, related facilities, rather than trying to start from > scratch. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Keys > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 12:29 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Computer Museum > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jules Richardson" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:27 PM > Subject: Re: Computer Museum > >> >> Personally I wouldn't give anything to anyone who didn't have space >> for it already though - they should be able to amass enough of a >> collection first to know if it's viable, get some display space, and >> then put out an appeal to enthusiasts. >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> > This helps me understand why there is very little reponse to my JUST A BUCK > campaign asking for $1 from each person that visit's the museum website. > There seems to be very little(if any) help for start-ups in the museum > sector. I have seem two computer museum starts-ups get large funding help > but the people starting them were already rich and their friends gave big > bucks ( 1 million or more). >> > From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 11 14:23:41 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:23:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: univac something or other In-Reply-To: <42D257BB.18809.2D5759B0@localhost> Message-ID: > It appears too be a CRT terminal of some sort, but the box is pretty > large, which is odd. Key to disk maybe? From the styling it looks > like late 70's, early 80's? Yes, I would agree. The 60s and early 70s stuff has the orange strip thru everything. > This is the item's second time up. I've written to the seller > twice for more info but he's not bothered to respond. > I'm curious to know if anyone recognizes this. Google didn't > turn anything up. The tape drive he had up is older. It is way too expensive at $1250 or whatever, but it would be nice to have (my 9300 is a disk machine, but all the software is for a tape machine). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From tomj at wps.com Mon Jul 11 14:25:54 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <200507100735.30041.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050710011909.G1403@fiche.wps.com> <200507100735.30041.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <20050711121408.V1150@fiche.wps.com> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> Public funding for the arts has been reduced to a practical zero >> by right-wing corporate goons, sicko christian loonies, and the >> dwindling resources that remain go to fewer and fewer recipients. > > There are some of us "corporate goons, sicko christian loonies" who do a lot > of volunteer work for and have donated generously to the Computer History > Museum Clearly then you're not one of them. I refer to an enumerable list of virulent reactionary activists working hard and often extra-legally to push the U.S. (particularly) in a specific and narrow direction. There are plenty of responsible businesses. There are clearly plenty of christian-persuasion people doing wonderful things in all realms; vast numbers of the civil-rights movement, for example, it goes without saying. My emphasis was on right-wing extremists, and sicko loonies; those that want to control other peoples behaviours for their own gains. However the corporate- and christian- subcategories are particularly virulent at the moment, and pointful to their behavior. You have my apologies if it sounded like I meant otherwise. Anyways my point was that largely, the funding of open and ideologically-untethered arts is not valued highly by the powers-that-be at the moment. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 11 14:29:45 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > NO! NO! NO! BAD ADVICE! > > One should never replace a breaker with a higher rated one unless they are > sure the wiring can accomodate the increased amperage. A 15A breaker > requires 14 guage wire. A 20A breaker requires 12 guage wire. Putting a > 20A breaker on 14 guage wire is flirting with disaster. I would not call it "flirting with disaster", but it is not a good idea. The chances of a fire breaking out under this circumstance is damn small, but it is there. On the flip side, many homes are wired with 12 anyway, so the replacement breakers are OK. Some codes require 12 wire for everyday household circuits. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From tomj at wps.com Mon Jul 11 14:32:03 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public funding for the "Arts" Re: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <42D13F0C.3070901@mdrconsult.com> References: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42D13F0C.3070901@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20050711123108.A1150@fiche.wps.com> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > No good can come of this. > > $ cat $thread > /dev/null 2>&1 You're right. I'll drop it. Someone else can have the last word. Sorry I mentioned it. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 11 14:44:36 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Discrete Component FlipFlop Message-ID: <200507111944.MAA27093@clulw009.amd.com> Hi If they are JK's, you could make a divider connected to some LED's and use a 555 to run them. That symbol on them must be from some manufacture. These might have been fro some embedded system, such as an elevator and not necessarily from a computer. A machine I worked on in the service had a number of flop boards and other logic boards ( different form factor than yours ) but was not a computer. Dwight >X-Server-Uuid: 5FC0E2DF-CD44-48CD-883A-0ED95B391E89 >Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:13:37 -0700 >From: "Marvin Johnston" >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.81, clamav-milter version 0.81b on keith.ezwind.net >X-Virus-Status: Clean >X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=4.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 >X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on keith.ezwind.net >Subject: Re: Discrete Component FlipFlop >X-BeenThere: cctalk at classiccmp.org >X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 >List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >List-Unsubscribe: , >List-Archive: >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Subscribe: , >X-MMS-Spam-Confidence: moderate >X-MMS-Content-Rating: broadcast >X-MMS-Spam-Filter-ID: A2005071105_IBF_2.0.0 >X-WSS-ID: 6ECC76BE2CC1743744-01-01 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >> >Marvin Johnston wrote: >> >> Our annual Bazaar was held today with all the leftover stuff now at my >> >> house ... briefly! In searching through the stuff this afternoon, I >> >> found several boards that I couldn't identify. One is labeled "FlipFlop" >> >> and the other "Inverter". I put up a picture of both sides of the >> >> FlipFlop at: http://www.rain.org/~marvin/flipflop.jpg > >> I also noted that I don't see any 3 lead devices? I doubt >> it was for tubes so where are the transistors? >> Dwight > >The transistors are inside the plastic pieces at each end of the board. >The flipflop board has one on each side, and the inverter has two on >each side. The plastic pieces are riveted to the board, so I can't >easily see the transistor ID. I think I've checked almost everything >now, and there are three flipflop boards and two inverters. > From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jul 11 15:30:55 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:30:55 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 References: Message-ID: <17106.55039.24674.563853@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> NO! NO! NO! BAD ADVICE! >> >> One should never replace a breaker with a higher rated one unless >> they are sure the wiring can accomodate the increased amperage. A >> 15A breaker requires 14 guage wire. A 20A breaker requires 12 >> guage wire. Putting a 20A breaker on 14 guage wire is flirting >> with disaster. William> I would not call it "flirting with disaster", but it is not William> a good idea. The chances of a fire breaking out under this William> circumstance is damn small, but it is there. William> On the flip side, many homes are wired with 12 anyway, so William> the replacement breakers are OK. So I've heard. I've seen it rarely if ever. Note that 20 amp requires 12 gauge copper. In homes of the right (wrong?) age, you may find 12 gauge aluminum -- that's legal only for 15 amps. If you want aluminum and 20 amps, you'll need 10 gauge -- plus components rated for aluminum wire, which are generally somewhere between rare and nonexistent, and often very expensive. paul From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Mon Jul 11 15:47:06 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:47:06 +0200 Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: References: <42D18D11.5030004@hachti.de> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050711224431.02b45ed0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> I just hooked up my Teleprint 390 to my laptop and it works like a charm, almost 100%. I can type on my laptop and the output appears on both the papertape as typed. And what I type on the Teleprint appears on my laptop but what it doesn't do is when I feed it a papertape output it on the laptop (only parts). It does output it correctly on the Teleprint itself. Any idea's what might be wrong here ? I am not a real technical person but willing to give anything a try :-) Stefan. At 00:35 11-7-2005, you wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > Is the 'call control unit' -- the electronics chassis on the right hand > > > side -- the same? > > On *my* 390 there is a slightly different "call control unit". But I > > have several 33s and nearly each has a different ccu. Normally you don't > >There is one Teletype call control unit that was used in the version that >had a built-in 20mA loop interface and no modem. This is the version >that was supposed to be directly connected to the computer's interface, >and it's the version most commonly found. > > > > have to worry about that if you have a current loop device in working > > condition. There are also a lot of different wiring options for the > >No, but it certainly matters if you have to repair it... > > > machine..... > > > > > where the mechaical bits are normal Teletype ones, but the > > > call control unit is very different. It's built on a couple of PCBs (!) > > > and can handle both RS232 and current loop interfaces. > > Hey, that's cool. PCBs are normal in all CCUs. > >The Teletype one I menitoned has one little PCB in the selector magnet >driver (the reader PSU, also on a PCB, is not strictly part of the CCU, >even). There's a lot of hard-wiring too. > >The Data Dynamics one, IIRC, has 3 PCBs in it. One carries all the Molex >connectors at the back, which the mechanical parts plug into. The others >contain the reader PSU, singalling PSU, selector magnet driver, etc. >Almost no components no on the PSU. > > > It will be hard to find schmematics for that. > >Yes, but probably not too hard to trace out by hand if need be. > > > > > > Believe it or not, the Teletype manuals for the Model 33 do > have cleaning > > > and lubrication charts for the cover... > > :-) > > ... but there's no information about glueing together broken pieces of > > grey plastic.... :-) > >The best way to do this IMHO is to put the bits together and run a brush >dipped in dichloromethane along the cracks. This will disolve the plastic >and weld the parts together. Now take some cotton fabric, put it over the >repair on the inside of the case, and brush it over with the >dichloromethane. When the plastic has softened, force the fabric into it. >The result is a fairly strong repair... > >-tony ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Jul 11 15:39:51 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:39:51 -0400 Subject: FW: [FreecycleRockville] Offer: VAX VMS manuals Message-ID: Available in Maryland. I can't get or store them. > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Sudbrink [mailto:TSudbrink at omhrc.gov] > Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 3:55 PM > To: Bill Sudbrink > Subject: FW: [FreecycleRockville] Offer: VAX VMS manuals > > > Hey Bill, > Not sure if this is something that would interest you but I thought I'd > pass it along. > Todd > > > > Subject: [FreecycleRockville] Offer: VAX VMS manuals > > Free 30+ VAX VMS manuals in original DEC Grey Binders. Most have never > been used. > > Pick up in Olney near Mont Gen Hosp. From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Jul 11 15:43:59 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:43:59 +0200 Subject: international shipping Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D85@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi Chris, well, from The Netherlands to other countries *inside* Europe the Dutch Postal Service accepts packages upto 30 kilo, and then the max shipping costs are 39 Euro. *Outside* Europe the max weight is only 20 kilo, and economy shipping is 53 Euro, and priority shipping is 108 Euro. 100 Euro is approx 130 US$, so asking $300 is a rip off I would say! - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: cctech at classiccmp.org Sent: 8-7-2005 22:08 Subject: international shipping Can anyone tell me the best way to have something shipped from say England or the Netherlands (or Germany). Or even Brazil/Argentina. Or even Australia. I know it's not ever going to be cheap, but when you calculate 20 or so pounds from S.America - $300+, I figure there must be a better way. For those of you who already don't know it, FedEx usually beats UPS by a mile at domestic postage. Perhaps half in alot of cases. But they don't cover as many areas as it seems UPS does. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jul 11 16:10:02 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:10:02 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: References: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> Message-ID: <42D2E02A.nailD4K11VHCA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Steady-state draw is about 8A [RA81] Even that's an over-estimate. I'd say a few hundred watts after spin-up. That'd be 2-3A (modulo the power factor... there's a big motor but the power factor cannot be all that bad could it?) Tim. From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Mon Jul 11 10:43:56 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:43:56 -0500 Subject: Sigh! In-Reply-To: <20050711132548.1574639541@linux.local> Message-ID: <200507111552.j6BFqpZ6033959@keith.ezwind.net> I don't quite know what to say about this: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/6241/univac.html Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE Coach - ICPC Programming Team University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Jul 11 16:19:12 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:19:12 +0200 Subject: univac something or other Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D87@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi Brian, for a moment I thought it was an SSP, but the SSP would have some 8 inch floppy drives. IIRC the SSP (System Support Processor?) was needed to startup the 1100 series before you could mount a tape with a sysgen'ed bootable system. Unisus (Sperry) machines required a sysgen for every disk or tape drive or whatever. Very unlike PDP-11's which recognize what options are connected to the bus. But then again, an 1100 is quite a different league, as is EXEC, the Operating System. This is all very vague to me. Anybody, please feel free to correct me. So, I am not sure Brian. The SSP's I ever saw where alike, but then different :~) my 2c, - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 11-7-2005 20:27 Subject: univac something or other Anyone know what this is? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7335084988 It appears too be a CRT terminal of some sort, but the box is pretty large, which is odd. Key to disk maybe? From the styling it looks like late 70's, early 80's? This is the item's second time up. I've written to the seller twice for more info but he's not bothered to respond. I'm curious to know if anyone recognizes this. Google didn't turn anything up. Brian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 16:31:58 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:31:58 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <42D2E02A.nailD4K11VHCA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> <42D2E02A.nailD4K11VHCA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On 7/11/05, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Steady-state draw is about 8A [RA81] > > Even that's an over-estimate. I'd say a few hundred watts after > spin-up. That'd be 2-3A (modulo the power factor... there's a big > motor but the power factor cannot be all that bad could it?) I will admit that I haven't measured it myself. Don't forget there are several square feet of layered circuits in an RA81 - it's not just the motor, but I'm willing to concede that the drive might not draw the stated 8A @ 120VAC. -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jul 11 16:39:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > NO! NO! NO! BAD ADVICE! > > > > One should never replace a breaker with a higher rated one unless they are > > sure the wiring can accomodate the increased amperage. A 15A breaker > > requires 14 guage wire. A 20A breaker requires 12 guage wire. Putting a > > 20A breaker on 14 guage wire is flirting with disaster. > > I would not call it "flirting with disaster", but it is not a good > idea. The chances of a fire breaking out under this circumstance is damn > small, but it is there. I would not take the chance, personally. Maybe it's because I own my home and I happen to like living in it and all the stuff I've accumulated thus far in my life ;) It's not that much work to run the correct wiring. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 16:51:03 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:51:03 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/11/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I would not take the chance, personally. Maybe it's because I own my home > and I happen to like living in it and all the stuff I've accumulated thus > far in my life ;) It's not that much work to run the correct wiring. Agreed. I installed a 30A breaker, and a Hubbel Twist-n-Lock 30A receptacle in my basement to power the 8300. No short cuts there. -ethan From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Jul 11 16:58:25 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:58:25 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050711165551.0251f230@mail.ubanproductions.com> On 7/11/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I would not take the chance, personally. Maybe it's because I own my home > and I happen to like living in it and all the stuff I've accumulated thus > far in my life ;) It's not that much work to run the correct wiring. Not to mention that if there were a problem, the insurance company might not pay the claim, indicating the person who replaced the breaker with the incorrect value as liable... --tom From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jul 11 17:04:33 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:04:33 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: References: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> <42D2E02A.nailD4K11VHCA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <42D2ECF1.nailDI41Y9JC7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > might not draw the stated 8A @ 120VAC. That's a "max" rating. Most DEC stuff from that era overstates power consumption/cooling required by a factor of 2 or 3 for site installation purposes. > Don't forget there are several square feet of layered circuits Oh, yeah, certainly. Some of it is VLSI, other (read channel) is ECL-like, and it does draw power. But look at the little exhaust fan on the back of the drive - it is not dissipating a kilowatt, but a few hundred watts. I got rid of all my RA8x stuff around about 1996 or so. But I had no problem running 4 drives simultaneously on a 20A kitchen circuit. (Sequenced spin-up, of course.) Along with a 11/730. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jul 11 17:07:24 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:07:24 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050711165551.0251f230@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050711165551.0251f230@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <42D2ED9C.nailDJK1AGRTA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > indicating the person who replaced the breaker with the incorrect > value as liable... On a tangential note, is it possible to "lean" on a typical household breaker to stop it from tripping? Sort-of-like "battle override" on a Navy ship... Or is the lever only good for resetting, and holding it will not stop it from tripping? I think the latter but I've never tried it for real. Tim. From florit at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 17:09:55 2005 From: florit at gmail.com (Louis Florit) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:09:55 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? Message-ID: <46e70d050507111509710d6a3c@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I pulled out my 64-sx out of the box it's been stored with in anticipation of getting my JiffyDos upgrade installed into it. To my dismay, when I plugged it all in and powered it on, the keyboard wouldn't work properly. Any of the keys have to be pressed multiple times (3 to 10 times) in order to get the character to show up on screen. Any suggested remedies? I'm wondering if the keyboard contacts are just a little dirty and need a little cleaning, but I wanted to check with the gurus before prying it apart. Thanks, Louis -- Louis Florit AIM: lflorit MSN:louis_florit at hotmail.com Y!: indygolunaria From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Jul 11 17:15:07 2005 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:15:07 -0400 Subject: LAXXR Ribbons In-Reply-To: References: <42D257BB.18809.2D5759B0@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050711181318.01f001e8@mail.itm-inst.com> Whist digging around looking for something else, I ran across a box in my junk collection that has 6 new LAXXR ribbons (these are for the LA120 and LA180 printers.) They're still sealed in the original packaging so they're probably OK. Before I dump 'em on eBay is anyone interested in them? -Rick From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 17:17:50 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:17:50 +0100 Subject: international shipping In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D85@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D85@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Sent: 8-7-2005 22:08 > Subject: international shipping > > Can anyone tell me the best way to have something shipped from say > England or the Netherlands (or Germany). Or even Brazil/Argentina. Or > even Australia. I know it's not ever going to be cheap, but when you > calculate 20 or so pounds from S.America - $300+, I figure there must be > a better way. > For those of you who already don't know it, FedEx usually beats UPS by > a mile at domestic postage. Perhaps half in alot of cases. But they > don't cover as many areas as it seems UPS does. >From the UK, apparnetly BAX Global have good prices. http://www.baxglobal.com Never used them myself, but I have a friend who ships 100lb+ equipment all over the world regularly, who speaks highly of them. Ed. From dhbarr at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 17:27:05 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:27:05 -0500 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> References: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 7/11/05, Jim Brain wrote: [snip] I also secured a > 3B2/310. Alas, I'm not at all up on this type of machine. Google > brought up some information, but I'd appreciate any personal anecdotes > or information. http://dhbarr.freeshell.org/booklist.html is the list of docs that came with my 3b2/300 from a retired AT&T engineer. Let me know if you need something in particular looked up or scanned. I believe there's also a free TCP/IP setup available via google, or you can put NetBSD on these things if you have no other choice. SDF ran on just such a setup for several years. -dhbarr. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jul 11 17:32:17 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:32:17 -0400 Subject: international shipping In-Reply-To: References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D85@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <42D2F371.nailDP911SMN4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > FedEx usually beats UPS by a mile at domestic postage. Things are complicated by the discounts offered to corporate shippers, especially if they consolidate their shipments or co-locate at a FedEx/UPS hub. But for the average schmoe, these are non-factors. Up until a year or two ago I got 10% discounts on FedEx non-international shipments because I had a corporate AmEx card, but I think this has either been eliminated or scaled back to the point where it doesn't count. If you're a small business and you want to ship via UPS, you have to pay for the privilege of having an account and then more for a daily pick-up. Tim. From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jul 11 17:37:01 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:37:01 -0500 Subject: Sigh! References: <200507111552.j6BFqpZ6033959@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <022b01c58669$0f516dd0$3e406b43@66067007> I already had his site bookmarked and I purchased some items from a few years back. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Director" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 10:43 AM Subject: Sigh! >I don't quite know what to say about this: > > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/6241/univac.html > > Gil > > A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director > The Museum at CSE > Coach - ICPC Programming Team > University of Texas at Arlington > Department of Computer Science & Engineering > Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street > Arlington, TX 76019 > 817-272-3620 > http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jul 11 17:27:22 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:27:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: shoppa_classiccmp@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) "Re: Power and the RA82" (Jul 11, 18:07) References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050711165551.0251f230@mail.ubanproductions.com> <42D2ED9C.nailDJK1AGRTA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <10507112327.ZM11677@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jul 11 2005, 18:07, Tim Shoppa wrote: > On a tangential note, is it possible to "lean" on a typical household > breaker to stop it from tripping? Sort-of-like "battle override" on > a Navy ship... Or is the lever only good for resetting, and holding > it will not stop it from tripping? I think the latter but I've never > tried it for real. It may depend on the breaker. Some of our domestic RCD breakers can't be held in, but the normal MCBs on domestic mains distribution panels can. I used to hold in the 20A breaker on the circuit to my 19A UPS for a second or two whenever it was switched back on, because otherwise the switch-on surge tripped the breaker (class D breakers like we have in machine rooms at work don't have that trip problem). Oh, and if you don't think a 19A UPS is very big, remember it's 240VAC in the UK. That's 4.5KW, enough to keep quite a few RA82s running. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 17:43:24 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:43:24 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? In-Reply-To: <46e70d050507111509710d6a3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <46e70d050507111509710d6a3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/11/05, Louis Florit wrote: > Hi, I pulled out my 64-sx out of the box it's been stored with in > anticipation of getting my JiffyDos upgrade installed into it. To my > dismay, when I plugged it all in and powered it on, the keyboard > wouldn't work properly. Any of the keys have to be pressed multiple > times (3 to 10 times) in order to get the character to show up on > screen. > > Any suggested remedies? I'm wondering if the keyboard contacts are > just a little dirty and need a little cleaning, but I wanted to check > with the gurus before prying it apart. Unfortunately, the SX-64 keyboard is made entirely differently than PET and C-64 keyboards... the SX keyboard is layers of mylar with printed traces. The traces have been known to oxidize over time, rendering the keyboard inert. You can try to be as careful as you can, but I have seen plenty of dead keyboards from attempts to repair, and have never seen a successfully repaired keyboard. If you manage to work out a successful technique, please share it with us. I myself have two SX-64s, two good keyboards and two dead keyboards (neither by my hand). One possible solution would be to wire up an appropriate switch matrix to a the correct DB25 pinout and completely replace the native SX-64 keyboard. It would be functional, but not as portable. I don't want to say there's zero chance of repairing the original keyboard, but it would be an accomplishment to do so. -ethan From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 11 18:10:58 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:10:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <17106.55039.24674.563853@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > Note that 20 amp requires 12 gauge copper. In homes of the right > (wrong?) age, you may find 12 gauge aluminum -- that's legal only for > 15 amps. If you want aluminum and 20 amps, you'll need 10 gauge -- > plus components rated for aluminum wire, which are generally somewhere > between rare and nonexistent, and often very expensive. Anyone living in a house with Al wiring should either move out or replace it all with copper. Awful stuff. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 11 18:13:36 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? Message-ID: <200507112313.QAA27188@clulw009.amd.com> Hi That sounds similar to the keyboard on my Sun at work ( the one I'm typing on now ). About 3 years ago, I spilt Dr. Pepper on it. It immediately stopped working. I took it apart and washed the layers one at a time and dried them. It is still working today. I can imagine that replacing missing traces would be a little more difficult. I'd think that the current through most of the wires is quite low and one might try using some of the repair stuff for windshield heaters. If that didn't work, a last resort might be to use some small wire wrap wire and melt a channel into the plastic layer to keep from deforming the stack of sheets to much. Just some thoughts. Dwight >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On 7/11/05, Louis Florit wrote: >> Hi, I pulled out my 64-sx out of the box it's been stored with in >> anticipation of getting my JiffyDos upgrade installed into it. To my >> dismay, when I plugged it all in and powered it on, the keyboard >> wouldn't work properly. Any of the keys have to be pressed multiple >> times (3 to 10 times) in order to get the character to show up on >> screen. >> >> Any suggested remedies? I'm wondering if the keyboard contacts are >> just a little dirty and need a little cleaning, but I wanted to check >> with the gurus before prying it apart. > >Unfortunately, the SX-64 keyboard is made entirely differently than >PET and C-64 keyboards... the SX keyboard is layers of mylar with >printed traces. The traces have been known to oxidize over time, >rendering the keyboard inert. You can try to be as careful as you >can, but I have seen plenty of dead keyboards from attempts to repair, >and have never seen a successfully repaired keyboard. If you manage >to work out a successful technique, please share it with us. I myself >have two SX-64s, two good keyboards and two dead keyboards (neither by >my hand). > >One possible solution would be to wire up an appropriate switch matrix >to a the correct DB25 pinout and completely replace the native SX-64 >keyboard. It would be functional, but not as portable. I don't want >to say there's zero chance of repairing the original keyboard, but it >would be an accomplishment to do so. > >-ethan > > From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 11 18:15:03 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I would not take the chance, personally. Maybe it's because I own my home > and I happen to like living in it and all the stuff I've accumulated thus > far in my life ;) It's not that much work to run the correct wiring. Nor would I - but I am a son of a Chicago hospital electrician. I still use thinwall and BX (and even got exposed to thickwall a weekend ago). It is not much work, but for anyone that does this, please research the project so everything is code. Too many people take shortcuts. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Jul 11 18:16:04 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:16:04 -0500 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <200507092214.j69MExI5016270@keith.ezwind.net> References: <42D02F09.4030601@jetnet.ab.ca> <200507092214.j69MExI5016270@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050711181604.205ec669.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 17:06:04 -0500 "A. G. Carrick" wrote: > > > > > Now what is GRID BIAS ... :) > > > LOL! > > newbies! > > ;) > > > Better yet is grid leak bias. But, anyway... From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 11 18:17:39 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:17:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <42D2ED9C.nailDJK1AGRTA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > On a tangential note, is it possible to "lean" on a typical household > breaker to stop it from tripping? Sort-of-like "battle override" on > a Navy ship... Or is the lever only good for resetting, and holding > it will not stop it from tripping? I think the latter but I've never > tried it for real. Some yes, some no. I think most new designs are "no". Breakers are notoriously variable when it comes to trip current, so if you have patience, you can swap around breakers until you find one that gives you that little bit of extra forgiveness. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 11 18:27:06 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:27:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Early machines from the 'workstation wars', Apollo and Tektronix come to > mind, may be of interest in the future. If anything, for the dead microprocessors (32K, Clipper, Prism, etc.). > People seem to have saved the later SGI IRIS (3xxx series) though, > probably > because of the neat graphics demos. Not much 1000 stuff - I rarely even hear about it. 2000 (2500) is around, but rare. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 11 18:40:42 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:40:42 -0700 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 Message-ID: <32651a29a9c12ed86a0f7702d560456d@bitsavers.org> Not much 1000 stuff - I rarely even hear about it. 2000 (2500) is around, but rare. -- I think most of that came back as trades to SGI, or were field upgraded when they could to the 020 IP CPUs. Weird Stuff (was trying to remember when, probably late 80's) got SGI's trade-ins. I wasn't interested in that sort of stuff at the time. Did build a nice 31xx and wrote all of the disc contents to tape from what they had. Was a lot of fun stuff on those discs.. Even back then, there was very little 1000 stuff. The rarest were the 1000 attached graphics terminals running the Stanford V Kernel. I gave the SGI to someone.. probably long done by now. I remember running down to the Univ of Arizona to pick up a 3130 around the same time, and working on the SGI hardware FAQ. They really weren't very useful as a GP workstation, though, because of the way the frame buffer worked. Everything went through the graphics pipe and rendering processor, so you couldn't just BLT to the screen. They used Excelan enet cards so the TCP/IP had the usual problems (IP adr hardcoded, et. al.) Still have a bunch of print sets for the Multibus boards. Just waiting for the last of SGI to croak before putting them on bitsavers. From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Jul 11 18:46:20 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:46:20 -0500 Subject: Promised photos of SX64 in an industrial setting. Message-ID: <20050711184620.48502e0b.chenmel@earthlink.net> I took a few shots of the SX64 at work today as it's set up and in semi-active use. Feel free to use these images on your website if you so desire. http://sasteven.multics.org/SX64/SX64.html -Scott From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Jul 11 18:49:12 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:49:12 -0500 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: References: <42D28042.8050205@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20050711184912.2444d02a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, Jim Brain wrote: > > > I arrived to find the "mother of all packrats". I rather wished I > > had brought the trailer. For various reasons, the owner had not > > started packing, so we spent 8 years packing and loading. I managed > > to get it all in the shortbed quad cab truck (with topper), but not > > a square foot to spare. > > 8 years! My gawd, that is epic! ;) > And to think you're only offering 24 hours. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 11 19:04:40 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 00:04:40 +0000 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121126680.21744.31.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 09:34 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > I think Suns will always be collectable, as they are now. There are > some > > weird things they have made over the years that people seek. > > Early machines from the 'workstation wars', Apollo and Tektronix come to > mind, may be of interest in the future. There doesn't appear to be much > on the technical doc or software side around for these. Indeed - I've got a particular fondness for both Apollo and Tek systems, probably because they're not Suns (ten years ago, I wanted a Sun - nowadays it seems it'd be possible to pick up several a week if I wanted) You're right though, it's almost impossible to get documentation or install media for them. Still on the look-out for an Apollo DN10k, but don't hold out much hope of finding one (let alone one with an operational disk / installation media!) cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 11 17:14:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:14:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: <20050708133404.3563.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jul 8, 5 06:34:04 am Message-ID: > > The scanning frequencies of the EGA and MDA cards should be real close > (MDA outputs 348 lines of res, the EGA 350). You shouldn't have a > problem there (I won't comment about the jumpering/shorting though), but > keep in mind the original IBM mono monitor was very very touchy. If you > plugged it into a CGA card, it was known to...ummm...explode... That's going a bit far. It's very easy to burn out the horizontal output transistor and maybe associated components, but it won't explode. There is no horizontal osciallator in the MDA (5151) monitor. The Hsync line goes to the base of the horizontal driver transistor, the collector of which is transformer-coupled to the base of the horizontal output transistor. You can therefore attempt to drive the horizontal system at just about any frequency, but if the horizontal output stage is driven way off resonance (e.g. using the CGA frequncies), it will do nasty things. > > I won't swear to it, but I had thought there was a way of configuring > it specifically for a mono monitor. Don't hold me to it though. There is. There are switch settings for the EGA card to drive the MDA monitor, CGA monitor, or EGA monitor (the latter can operate at 2 different horizontal frequencies). The reason I mentioned the jumper link is that a lot of people forget to set that correctly when linking to a CGA or MDA monitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 11 17:15:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:15:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Jul 7, 5 09:34:11 am Message-ID: > Early machines from the 'workstation wars', Apollo and Tektronix come to > mind, may be of interest in the future. There doesn't appear to be much Along, I suspect, with the even less-knwon workstations from Xerox (D-machines), 3 rivers/PERQ systems, Torch (XXX, quad-X), etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 11 18:41:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 00:41:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? In-Reply-To: <46e70d050507111509710d6a3c@mail.gmail.com> from "Louis Florit" at Jul 11, 5 06:09:55 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, I pulled out my 64-sx out of the box it's been stored with in > anticipation of getting my JiffyDos upgrade installed into it. To my > dismay, when I plugged it all in and powered it on, the keyboard > wouldn't work properly. Any of the keys have to be pressed multiple > times (3 to 10 times) in order to get the character to show up on > screen. > > Any suggested remedies? I'm wondering if the keyboard contacts are > just a little dirty and need a little cleaning, but I wanted to check > with the gurus before prying it apart. I've never seen a 64-SX, but if it's like other Commodore keyboards of the time, it uses conmductive plastic pads on the key stems pressing against pads on the PCB. You don't need to pull the keycaps, the way into it is from the underside. Take it out of the case, then desolder thw wires to the shift-lock switch and undo all the screws on the PCB. That then comes off. Clean the PCB with propan-2-ol as usual. It's best to avoid cleaning the conductive plasic parts unless you have to, so what I'd do is clean the PCB, put it hack together (don't bother to resolder the shift-lock wires at this stage), try it, and if it's still not right take the PCB off again and clean the conductive plastic too. -tony From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Jul 11 19:04:28 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:04:28 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050711190428.68aa3ed2.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:15:03 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli wrote: > > I would not take the chance, personally. Maybe it's because I own > > my home and I happen to like living in it and all the stuff I've > > accumulated thus far in my life ;) It's not that much work to run > > the correct wiring. > > Nor would I - but I am a son of a Chicago hospital electrician. I > still use thinwall and BX (and even got exposed to thickwall a weekend > ago). > > It is not much work, but for anyone that does this, please research > the project so everything is code. Too many people take shortcuts. > We have knob and tube wiring in part of our house here, and scanty, if any, grounding. The switchbox/fusebox is bolted to the outside of the house in the back porch, and newer upgrade boxes and switches cascade down the wall beneath the original, which appears to be from the 1920's. This place was built in 1900 and the wiring and other fancy stuff like running water were added years later. I *do* need to upgrade the wiring and service sometime soon. There are places in the cellar (which is beneath only one room of the house) where the wiring, although quite sound as far as I can estimate, is very scary looking. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 11 18:43:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 00:43:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <42D2ED9C.nailDJK1AGRTA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jul 11, 5 06:07:24 pm Message-ID: > On a tangential note, is it possible to "lean" on a typical household > breaker to stop it from tripping? Sort-of-like "battle override" on > a Navy ship... Or is the lever only good for resetting, and holding > it will not stop it from tripping? I think the latter but I've never > tried it for real. I have an idea that it's a requirement in the UK that you can't do this -- if the lever is jammed in the 'on' position, the breaker will still trip. Certainly alkl those of reputable manufacture behave this way (you can try holding the lever of an RCD in the 'on' position and pressing the test button, it will still trip). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 11 18:53:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 00:53:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 11, 5 05:43:24 pm Message-ID: > > On 7/11/05, Louis Florit wrote: > > Hi, I pulled out my 64-sx out of the box it's been stored with in > > anticipation of getting my JiffyDos upgrade installed into it. To my > > dismay, when I plugged it all in and powered it on, the keyboard > > wouldn't work properly. Any of the keys have to be pressed multiple > > times (3 to 10 times) in order to get the character to show up on > > screen. > > > > Any suggested remedies? I'm wondering if the keyboard contacts are > > just a little dirty and need a little cleaning, but I wanted to check > > with the gurus before prying it apart. > > Unfortunately, the SX-64 keyboard is made entirely differently than > PET and C-64 keyboards... the SX keyboard is layers of mylar with Bletch!!! > printed traces. The traces have been known to oxidize over time, > rendering the keyboard inert. You can try to be as careful as you > can, but I have seen plenty of dead keyboards from attempts to repair, > and have never seen a successfully repaired keyboard. If you manage > to work out a successful technique, please share it with us. I myself > have two SX-64s, two good keyboards and two dead keyboards (neither by > my hand). Sounds like the infernal DEC LK201... I've never managed to repair one of those either. If it's screwed together, or if you can use screws to reasssemble it after cutting off the heat-stakes (the IBM PC/AT 101-key keyboard is built this way), then take it apart, clean the contact layers with propan-2-ol. and pray :-). Most of these keybaords are heat-staked and you can't use screws (noting to tap into), so you are pretty much stuck. > > One possible solution would be to wire up an appropriate switch matrix > to a the correct DB25 pinout and completely replace the native SX-64 > keyboard. It would be functional, but not as portable. I don't want How similar is the matrix to the C64 keyboard? > to say there's zero chance of repairing the original keyboard, but it > would be an accomplishment to do so. > > -ethan > > -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 11 19:37:17 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Promised photos of SX64 in an industrial setting. In-Reply-To: <20050711184620.48502e0b.chenmel@earthlink.net> from Scott Stevens at "Jul 11, 5 06:46:20 pm" Message-ID: <200507120037.RAA13890@floodgap.com> > I took a few shots of the SX64 at work today as it's set up and in > semi-active use. Feel free to use these images on your website if you > so desire. > > http://sasteven.multics.org/SX64/SX64.html Excellent! -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If everyone is abnormal, then no one is. ----------------------------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 20:18:55 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:18:55 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? In-Reply-To: <200507112313.QAA27188@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200507112313.QAA27188@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On 7/11/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > If that didn't work, a last resort might > be to use some small wire wrap wire and melt a channel > into the plastic layer to keep from deforming the stack > too much I've seen the results of attempts at that. Let me put it this way - try it right before you are ready to pitch the whole mess. there's not enough pressure to make contact between oxidized traces printed on mylar and any kind of wire. The mylar sheeting is thin enough that you are more likely to perforate the mylar than "melt a channel" _Perhaps_ some kind of foil overlay might work, but it would have to be akin to gold leaf, and you'd need a solder alloy that melted below the temp of the plastic to get any sort of joint. For that matter, if you had an uber-low-temp solder (200F? 300F?), you might be able to overlay entire traces with WW wire, but not if the plastic develops holes. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 20:30:13 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:30:13 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK... sorry about the premature ejection - keyboard shortcuts and fat fingers don't work well together. On 7/11/05, Tony Duell wrote: > Sounds like the infernal DEC LK201... I've never managed to repair one of > those either. I haven't seen the inside of an LK201, but they do sound similar. > If it's screwed together, or if you can use screws to reasssemble it > after cutting off the heat-stakes (the IBM PC/AT 101-key keyboard is built > this way), then take it apart, clean the contact layers with propan-2-ol. > and pray :-). Most of these keybaords are heat-staked and you can't use > screws (noting to tap into), so you are pretty much stuck. I don't think that's a problem in the case of an SX-64. The mylar layers are either screwed down to the face, or held in place by plastic pegs molded into the backside *IIRC*. I've seen the results of conductive paint, BTW - also not pretty. > How similar is the matrix to the C64 keyboard? Given that AFAIK, that part of the ROMs are identical, I'd give it even money that the matrices are compatible (the SX-64 _might_ have fewer keys; can't remember). One thought I had in the past was to turn a dead C-64 shell into an SX-64 keyboard shell - make a DB-25 to single-inline post connector cable, then hook the C-64 keyboard harness to that - and voila - nearly instant external keyboard. I did look at the schematics on funet, but I didn't find any SX-64 pages with an obvious key matrix. Shouldn't be hard to reverse-engineer one given an SX-64 in front of you, and the C-64 and/or SX-64 schematics showing what I/O pins are attached to the keyboard matrix. I have not tried this, but I have every expectation of it working. -ethan From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Jul 11 20:33:32 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:33:32 -0500 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: References: <20050708133404.3563.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050711203332.5c2da90f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:14:15 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > The scanning frequencies of the EGA and MDA cards should be real > > close (MDA outputs 348 lines of res, the EGA 350). You shouldn't > > have a problem there (I won't comment about the jumpering/shorting > > though), but keep in mind the original IBM mono monitor was very > > very touchy. If you plugged it into a CGA card, it was known > > to...ummm...explode... > > That's going a bit far. It's very easy to burn out the horizontal > output transistor and maybe associated components, but it won't > explode. > > There is no horizontal osciallator in the MDA (5151) monitor. The > Hsync line goes to the base of the horizontal driver transistor, the > collector of which is transformer-coupled to the base of the > horizontal output transistor. You can therefore attempt to drive the > horizontal system at just about any frequency, but if the horizontal > output stage is driven way off resonance (e.g. using the CGA > frequncies), it will do nasty things. > > > > > I won't swear to it, but I had thought there was a way of > > configuring > > it specifically for a mono monitor. Don't hold me to it though. > > There is. There are switch settings for the EGA card to drive the MDA > monitor, CGA monitor, or EGA monitor (the latter can operate at 2 > different horizontal frequencies). The reason I mentioned the jumper > link is that a lot of people forget to set that correctly when linking > to a CGA or MDA monitor. > Its my understanding (but I've only seen it as a rumor, not as hard technical fact) that the reason the original IBM Monitors plug into the PC Power Supply and not directly into an outlet is that they were vulnerable to damage (probably the same horizontal drive problem) if left powered on independent of the PC. I at one point had an original IBM monitor that had a direct power cord connector and understood at the time that it was one of the very early monitors for this reason. (I also at one point had an IBM PC-1, the first-generation IBM PC, detectable from later versions by it's four rows of 16K chips and the powersupply and I/O channel backplates being painted black. I grow angry just thinking about the row with the landlord that led to me giving that machine up) > -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 20:34:55 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:34:55 -0500 Subject: PET keyboard hacking (was Re: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck?) In-Reply-To: References: <46e70d050507111509710d6a3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/11/05, Tony Duell wrote: (don't bother to resolder the shift-lock wires at this stage) Excellent advice - I melted my PET's capslock switch as a teenager while replacing the PCB at the back of the keyboard (my brothers and I wore out the A, 4 and 6 keys playing the ML version of Space Invaders for hours and hours on end - the gold was _visually_ missing from just the middle of those three keys). I still have that keyboard with the defective caps lock. :-/ At least I took the opportunity to snarf the old keyboard harness and build a "wedge" between the new keyboard and the motherboard - I ran 4 lines off the board to an external box with 3 real arcade buttons ($9 each in 1980!) that paralleled the normal A and 4 and 6, so we could bang away all night and not ruin the _new_ keyboard. -ethan From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 18:25:40 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:25:40 -0400 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <200507092214.j69MExI5016270@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 7/9/05 6:06 PM, "A. G. Carrick" wrote: > >> >> Now what is GRID BIAS ... :) >> > LOL! > > newbies! > > ;) > > > What the hell is this "INTERNET" I keep hearing about?? People keep telling me I'm using it, but I thought I was connected to the discussion board on a uni BBS system! From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 11 21:35:00 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <1121126680.21744.31.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > Still on the look-out for an Apollo DN10k, but don't hold out much hope > of finding one (let alone one with an operational disk / installation > media!) Still on the sell-out of an Apollo DN10K, but don't hold out much hope of selling it (let alone managing to get it out of the shop / buried several levels deep). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 11 21:45:59 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Jul 11, 5 08:30:13 pm" Message-ID: <200507120245.TAA16716@floodgap.com> > OK... sorry about the premature ejection - keyboard shortcuts and fat > fingers don't work well together. Don't worry, every man has that at some point. Oh, wait ... ;) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Are you ready for de BIG FUN?? Yeah! -- Headmaster Kuno, "Ranma 1/2" ------- From ikvsabre at comcast.net Mon Jul 11 21:53:02 2005 From: ikvsabre at comcast.net (ikvsabre at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 02:53:02 +0000 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? Message-ID: <071220050253.13241.42D3308E00020EF5000033B922058844840A9D0D0E9C900507@comcast.net> If we are going to start naming calling every other hobbyist, please let me know so I can terminate my subcription to this group. I find this thread disgusting. -------------- Original message -------------- > I'm sorry, but when 'scarcity' becomes the deciding factor in how > 'interesting' a piece of equipment is to the community, this hobby is > close to becoming another room full of stamp collectors, or worse, Star > Wars 'collectable' fanatics. From computer at officereach.net Mon Jul 11 22:02:49 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:02:49 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? In-Reply-To: <200507120245.TAA16716@floodgap.com> References: from Ethan Dicks at "Jul 11, 5 08:30:13 pm" <200507120245.TAA16716@floodgap.com> Message-ID: hahahaha, hahahahaha. hahahahaha. hahahaha. funnnny. damn, you guys are a barrell of laughs. Thanks, Cameron, for the laugh. Apaprently you can't fix a C64SX keyboard either, BTW... from what you say. ;-) -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? > > OK... sorry about the premature ejection - keyboard shortcuts and fat > > fingers don't work well together. > > Don't worry, every man has that at some point. Oh, wait ... > > ;) > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Are you ready for de BIG FUN?? Yeah! -- Headmaster Kuno, "Ranma 1/2" > ------- From billdeg at degnanco.com Mon Jul 11 22:12:20 2005 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:12:20 -0400 Subject: Wanted $$ US Source for Commodore PAL Monitor Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050711224912.00c951d0@mail.degnanco.net> I am looking for a color PAL monitor, preferably a Commodore 1701/1702/1801/1901, but I will take anything that works from this era with same capabilities I live in the Philadelphia area (USA), I would prefer to pick up or have shipped from East Coast to save shipping $$. I will pay fair market value or trade. Please contact me directly. Thanks. Bill From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jul 11 22:17:03 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:17:03 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <17106.55039.24674.563853@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <17106.55039.24674.563853@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42D3362F.4090603@mdrconsult.com> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"William" == William Donzelli writes: > > > >> NO! NO! NO! BAD ADVICE! > >> > >> One should never replace a breaker with a higher rated one unless > >> they are sure the wiring can accomodate the increased amperage. A > >> 15A breaker requires 14 guage wire. A 20A breaker requires 12 > >> guage wire. Putting a 20A breaker on 14 guage wire is flirting > >> with disaster. > > William> I would not call it "flirting with disaster", but it is not > William> a good idea. The chances of a fire breaking out under this > William> circumstance is damn small, but it is there. > > William> On the flip side, many homes are wired with 12 anyway, so > William> the replacement breakers are OK. > > So I've heard. I've seen it rarely if ever. > > Note that 20 amp requires 12 gauge copper. In homes of the right > (wrong?) age, you may find 12 gauge aluminum -- that's legal only for > 15 amps. If you want aluminum and 20 amps, you'll need 10 gauge -- > plus components rated for aluminum wire, which are generally somewhere > between rare and nonexistent, and often very expensive. And this is a huge problem, potentially much more dangerous than undergauge wire (as in more likely to cause problems; maybe not likely to cause more problems). I lived in a duplex with clad aluminum wiring and copper-rated breakers, fixtures, and wire nuts. I discovered this when replacing my porch light fixture. I touched the earth ground lead, and got the poopie shocked out of me. I thought I must have brushed a "hot" wire, and got more poopie shocked out of me. The house was carrying 55V on the earth ground. Doc From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 11 22:40:37 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:40:37 -0500 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <20050711184912.2444d02a.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <42D28042.8050205@jbrain.com> <20050711184912.2444d02a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42D33BB5.4010909@jbrain.com> Scott Stevens wrote: >On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:44:22 -0700 (PDT) >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > >>On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, Jim Brain wrote: >> >> >> >>>I arrived to find the "mother of all packrats". I rather wished I >>>had brought the trailer. For various reasons, the owner had not >>>started packing, so we spent 8 years packing and loading. I managed >>>to get it all in the shortbed quad cab truck (with topper), but not >>>a square foot to spare. >>> >>> >>8 years! My gawd, that is epic! ;) >> >> >> >And to think you're only offering 24 hours. > > This is what you get when you rush off responses while heading out the door to work. And, ended up late anyway, by a half hour. It sure seemed like forever. I arrive at the front door of his house to see a stack of maybe 7 CBM boxes. I thought "this will be easy, I'll be on the road in a half hour." He welcomed me inside, and then showed me the computer room. Hmmm, two systems. Still not bad. I'll be able to leave in a hour, 2 tops. Then, we ventured to the basement. Everytime I'd turn around around he'd uncover more CBM stuff. And more, and more. It was like a archeological dig. Stuff was buried under newer projects (painting and woodworking). THe aforementioned 3B2 was only spotted as we moved a bunch of wood away from a wall. At the end, I found copies of CBM mags interspersed between phone bills and tax assessments. I cmae home and told my wife I had found a bigger packrat than I. We agreed that it's not how much stuff you collect, it's how organized you are. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Jul 11 06:20:54 2005 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 06:20:54 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 23, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: <200507071700.j67H03Ca051189@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507071700.j67H03Ca051189@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 7/7/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/ > >w00t, I got 7/10! Ha ha! I will slaughter you all, I mean, I did well. ....with a nice Chianti... 7/10 here too. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jul 11 23:12:36 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 00:12:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <42D0FA40.5050403@gjcp.net> References: <200507091633.j69GXU3R083199@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3959FB42-C465-4A08-9CA6-9EBF6DAD5254@comcast.net> <001101c584b8$758f1f50$2101a8c0@finans> <42D0FA40.5050403@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200507120415.AAA21463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > G, S, and P are, of course, Gold == 5%, Silver == 10% and Plain == > unspecified tolerance If by "Plain" you mean "no fourth band", I thought that indicated "20%", not "unspecified". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From marvin at rain.org Mon Jul 11 23:16:33 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:16:33 -0700 Subject: Make a New Mylar Keyboard, was Re: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? Message-ID: <42D34421.B7E883C9@rain.org> Since I suspect that the keyboards were originally done by silkscreening conductive ink onto mylar, it should be fairly easy, albeit time consuming, to make a new mylar. My guess would be to use something like a Houston Instrument Pen Plotter that would also take a vinyl cutting knife, cut out the mylar, make up a screen, and just silkscreen the traces onto the ready to insert mylar. Or, if the old mylar is not broken, just reuse the old one. I don't know what kind of prep needs to be done in order for the ink to adhere to the mylar, but this (and anything else that comes up) is something that has been done for a long time. Another thought would be to go to someone who already produces this type of switch and find out what it would cost to make up a couple. It might be possible (depending on the size of the company) to get it done gratis, ie as a sample. > On 7/11/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > If that didn't work, a last resort might > > be to use some small wire wrap wire and melt a channel > > into the plastic layer to keep from deforming the stack > > too much > > I've seen the results of attempts at that. Let me put it this way - > try it right before you are ready to pitch the whole mess. > > there's not enough pressure to make contact between oxidized traces > printed on mylar and any kind of wire. The mylar sheeting is thin > enough that you are more likely to perforate the mylar than "melt a > channel" _Perhaps_ some kind of foil overlay might work, but it would > have to be akin to gold leaf, and you'd need a solder alloy that > melted below the temp of the plastic to get any sort of joint. For > that matter, if you had an uber-low-temp solder (200F? 300F?), you > might be able to overlay entire traces with WW wire, but not if the > plastic develops holes. > > -ethan From marvin at rain.org Mon Jul 11 23:26:17 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:26:17 -0700 Subject: Wanted $$ US Source for Commodore PAL Monitor Message-ID: <42D34669.DB4DFD05@rain.org> Take a look for a Sony PVM-1271Q Trinitron monitor. I seem to recall that it can take NTSC or PAL inputs. They show up on (ugh) ebay fairly regularly. > I am looking for a color PAL monitor, preferably a Commodore > 1701/1702/1801/1901, but I will take anything that works from this era with > same capabilities I live in the Philadelphia area (USA), I would prefer > to pick up or have shipped from East Coast to save shipping $$. I will pay > fair market value or trade. Please contact me directly. > Thanks. > Bill From computer at officereach.net Mon Jul 11 23:42:42 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:42:42 -0700 Subject: Wanted $$ US Source for Commodore PAL Monitor In-Reply-To: <42D34669.DB4DFD05@rain.org> References: <42D34669.DB4DFD05@rain.org> Message-ID: Does anyone want one of the two before I put them off to ebay? All I ask is for the cost of mailing (which should be pretty cheap) I have a Genuine WYSE Terminal Keyboard; looks to be a new (albeit dusty) keyboard - part # 840338-01 - Think it is for a WYSE-30 terminal; I also have a Qume Keyboard, part number 303687-11 - From computer at officereach.net Mon Jul 11 23:43:33 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:43:33 -0700 Subject: FREE (well, almost) WYSE or QUME keyboard, before ebaying. In-Reply-To: References: <42D34669.DB4DFD05@rain.org> Message-ID: Does anyone want one of the two before I put them off to ebay? All I ask is for the cost of mailing (which should be pretty cheap) I have a Genuine WYSE Terminal Keyboard; looks to be a new (albeit dusty) keyboard - part # 840338-01 - Think it is for a WYSE-30 terminal; I also have a Qume Keyboard, part number 303687-11 - From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jul 11 23:42:58 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 00:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <20050710131212.3fe9944a.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050710111858.1cc188b2.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050710131212.3fe9944a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200507120447.AAA21725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>>> hehe. moron.... >>> Even if s/he isn't a member of the list, that kind of tone repels >>> people. We need to strive not to come off as a superior elite. >> I'm a "superior elite" because I pointed out what an idiot someone >> is or doing something superiorly idiotic? No, for pointing it out in the "pointing and laughing" kind of ridiculing way you did. And it's not that it makes you "superior elite"; it makes you *come off as* "superior elite". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bqt at Update.UU.SE Tue Jul 12 02:17:22 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:17:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Where can I get DECmail-11? In-Reply-To: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > Hey I was just curious, because I don't see DECmail-11 listed on > Mentec's or HP's website, does that mean that they don't care about > DECmail-11 anymore? If so, does anyone know where I can get a copy? This leads to several questions. Like, who owns DECmail-11? Did it get transferred to Mentec, or is it still with DEC (HP). It's no longer an active product, heck it wasn't even active when Mentec took over, but it's not free just because they don't sell it. But assuming you actually could find out who owns it, do they have the software still around? I kindof doubt that they do. So, where do you get it? Beats me. I have a copy of V3.1, but you'll have to show a license to get a copy. Anyone got any newer version? I have some patches for 3.1 to make it sortof Y2K compliant. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From river at zip.com.au Tue Jul 12 02:18:30 2005 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:18:30 +1000 Subject: Multibus-I Prototyping Boards Message-ID: <00ac01c586b1$e8b470c0$3324083d@river> Hi, I'm looking for some Multibus-I prototyping/blank PCB for some development work I'm doing. I've searched the net but found very little. Does anyone know if these boards are still made and who sells them, assuming they're still available? seeyuzz river From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 12 03:37:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <200507120447.AAA21725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, der Mouse wrote: > >> I'm a "superior elite" because I pointed out what an idiot someone > >> is or doing something superiorly idiotic? > > No, for pointing it out in the "pointing and laughing" kind of > ridiculing way you did. No, I said it in a mocking and deriding sort of way. > And it's not that it makes you "superior elite"; it makes you *come off > as* "superior elite". Whatever. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 12 05:36:16 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:36:16 +0000 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121164576.23435.4.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-11 at 22:35 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > Still on the look-out for an Apollo DN10k, but don't hold out much hope > > of finding one (let alone one with an operational disk / installation > > media!) > > Still on the sell-out of an Apollo DN10K, but don't hold out much hope of > selling it (let alone managing to get it out of the shop / buried several > levels deep). Rats - wrong side of the pond (as usual!) Have you got OS install media? From what I gather it uses a different DomainOS install set from the other Apollo machines, so you may well have the last surviving copy if so - backing it up onto modern media might be nice! (or at least cloning the OS drive in the machine itself) Doubtless there are a few DN10k's out there, but yours is the only one I've seen mentioned in the last five years or so... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 12 05:59:58 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:59:58 +0000 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121165998.23435.21.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-11 at 23:15 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Early machines from the 'workstation wars', Apollo and Tektronix come to > > mind, may be of interest in the future. There doesn't appear to be much > > Along, I suspect, with the even less-knwon workstations from Xerox > (D-machines), 3 rivers/PERQ systems, Torch (XXX, quad-X), etc. Plus Whitechapel of course, and the aforementioned 3B2, and NeXT. I suppose the Acorn R140/R260 count too. Everyone seems to remember Sun and SGI (although I do think SGI machines have a bit of style to them!) but I bet there are a *lot* of forgotten machines in the workstation class from the 1980's / early 90's. Actually, are we only counting machines that ran Unix-a-like systems, or anything in the workstation class? (i.e. does PERQ qualify? :-) cheers Jules From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jul 12 07:48:17 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:48:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <1121165998.23435.21.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > Everyone seems to remember Sun and SGI (although I do think SGI machines > have a bit of style to them!) but I bet there are a *lot* of forgotten > machines in the workstation class from the 1980's / early 90's. > > Actually, are we only counting machines that ran Unix-a-like systems, or > anything in the workstation class? (i.e. does PERQ qualify? :-) I suppose we could say "all machines count", but seeing some of the lines that actually had a chance in the market (and a dent on history) die would suck. I would think Apollos, Teks, and Integraphs would be the more important machines. For example, Integraph made a hell of a lot of machines using an interesting architecture, and even modified VAXes for servers, but after they got out of the hardware business quite a few years ago, it is almost like everything simply vanished. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jul 12 07:50:05 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <1121164576.23435.4.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > Have you got OS install media? From what I gather it uses a different > DomainOS install set from the other Apollo machines, so you may well > have the last surviving copy if so - backing it up onto modern media > might be nice! (or at least cloning the OS drive in the machine itself) No, I don't. There was a guy on this list years back that had a running 10K. What was his name? You out there? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Jul 12 07:56:07 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:56:07 -0400 Subject: Update on HHC Basics In-Reply-To: <200506011255.FAA20886@floodgap.com> References: <200506011255.FAA20886@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <7EEC7D7A-A96E-4BB2-97C5-EA7620371A72@xlisper.mv.com> I finally received my HHC Basic ROMs yesterday and they seem to work. (Thanks Roger!) I do have a problem where it claims I have insufficient memory to save even the smallest program. I seem to remember hearing someone else complain of that problem as well but I never saw anyone post a solution. Has anyone been able to save programs? Is there some trick involved? This is the first time I've used the machine and I suppose there could be left over stuff in RAM that needs to be deleted. I would think it would have disappeared long ago though since the batteries were dead when I bought the machine and I am only able to run it off of the power supply. Has anyone had success saving programs? Also, my machine has a menu entry offering to run SNAP programs but I have been unable to find a description of the SNAP language. I believe it is a Forth derivative. Can someone point me to a description of the SNAP language? Thanks, David On Jun 1, 2005, at 8:55 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Has anyone who ordered one of these ROMs received it yet? I haven't >>> received mine and I've tried to send Roger email on a number of >>> occasions and have gotten no reply. Has anyone else heard from him? >>> > > >> Yep, received mine about 2 - 3 weeks ago. >> > > Mine too. Works well. > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/ > ~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- There is always one more imbecile than you counted on. > --------------------- > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jul 12 08:22:04 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:22:04 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <42D3362F.4090603@mdrconsult.com> References: <17106.55039.24674.563853@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42D3362F.4090603@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> I shudder when I picture aluminum core wiring... I just have visions of it evaporating under load! :-) Good solid copper 12 guage is the only way to go! Curt Doc Shipley wrote: > Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >>>>>> >> >> >> >> NO! NO! NO! BAD ADVICE! >> >> >> One should never replace a breaker with a higher rated one >> unless >> >> they are sure the wiring can accomodate the increased amperage. A >> >> 15A breaker requires 14 guage wire. A 20A breaker requires 12 >> >> guage wire. Putting a 20A breaker on 14 guage wire is flirting >> >> with disaster. >> >> William> I would not call it "flirting with disaster", but it is not >> William> a good idea. The chances of a fire breaking out under this >> William> circumstance is damn small, but it is there. >> >> William> On the flip side, many homes are wired with 12 anyway, so >> William> the replacement breakers are OK. >> >> So I've heard. I've seen it rarely if ever. >> >> Note that 20 amp requires 12 gauge copper. In homes of the right >> (wrong?) age, you may find 12 gauge aluminum -- that's legal only for >> 15 amps. If you want aluminum and 20 amps, you'll need 10 gauge -- >> plus components rated for aluminum wire, which are generally somewhere >> between rare and nonexistent, and often very expensive. > > > And this is a huge problem, potentially much more dangerous than > undergauge wire (as in more likely to cause problems; maybe not likely > to cause more problems). > > I lived in a duplex with clad aluminum wiring and copper-rated > breakers, fixtures, and wire nuts. I discovered this when replacing > my porch light fixture. I touched the earth ground lead, and got the > poopie shocked out of me. I thought I must have brushed a "hot" wire, > and got more poopie shocked out of me. The house was carrying 55V on > the earth ground. > > > Doc > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: 7/12/2005 From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jul 12 08:31:12 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:31:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > I shudder when I picture aluminum core wiring... I just have visions > of it evaporating under load! :-) I am not sure how old youor house is, but beware - lots in the town have (or had) Al. Mine did (rather, I am still yanking it out). One of the big problems with Aluminum is that it flows under pressure - the pressure of a screw, for example. Tighten down a screw on a fixture, and next year, you will probably be able to tighten a little more. Then next year, a little more. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jul 12 08:33:29 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:33:29 -0400 Subject: IBM Cad/Cam System on Ebay... In-Reply-To: <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> References: <17106.55039.24674.563853@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42D3362F.4090603@mdrconsult.com> <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <42D3C6A9.3050309@atarimuseum.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74946&item=5217530993&rd=1 Not mine.... looks interesting, great starting bid price, no reserve. Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: 7/12/2005 From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jul 12 08:35:27 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:35:27 -0400 Subject: Nice Xerox 820 System... In-Reply-To: <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> References: <17106.55039.24674.563853@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42D3362F.4090603@mdrconsult.com> <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <42D3C71F.50409@atarimuseum.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5217542932&rd=1 $9.99 opening bid, no reserve.... not mine, looks like a good deal. Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: 7/12/2005 From bill at timeguy.com Tue Jul 12 08:48:03 2005 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:48:03 -0500 Subject: Altair 680B Toggle Switch Style? Message-ID: <20050712134803.GA31002@outpost.timeguy.com> I tried to post this once before, but I never saw that it showed up, so here goes again... I'm trying to build a replica of a 680B using a real 680B case from eBay, authentic switches and LEDs, and a power supply and CPU board of my own design. I've seen both flat- and round-handled toggles in pictures on the web and my old issues of Byte magazine, and have been unable to discern a pattern to it. Can anyone on the list tell me why the difference, and which one is more accurate to use? Thanks. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 09:12:36 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:12:36 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: References: <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 7/12/05, William Donzelli wrote: > > I shudder when I picture aluminum core wiring... I just have visions > > of it evaporating under load! :-) > > I am not sure how old youor house is, but beware - lots in the town have > (or had) Al. Mine did (rather, I am still yanking it out). Wasn't that popular to install in the 1970s? While I have no Al wiring in my 90-year-old house, I do have knob-and-tube, which is why I ran two new 15A circuits to the back bedroom for the computers. -ethan From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jul 12 09:16:57 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:16:57 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 References: <20050711190428.68aa3ed2.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <17107.53465.772010.391956@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Scott" == Scott Stevens writes: Scott> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:15:03 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli Scott> wrote: >> > I would not take the chance, personally. Maybe it's because I >> own > my home and I happen to like living in it and all the stuff >> I've > accumulated thus far in my life ;) It's not that much work >> to run > the correct wiring. >> >> Nor would I - but I am a son of a Chicago hospital electrician. I >> still use thinwall and BX (and even got exposed to thickwall a >> weekend ago). >> >> It is not much work, but for anyone that does this, please >> research the project so everything is code. Too many people take >> shortcuts. >> Scott> We have knob and tube wiring in part of our house here, and Scott> scanty, if any, grounding. The switchbox/fusebox is bolted to Scott> the outside of the house in the back porch, and newer upgrade Scott> boxes and switches cascade down the wall beneath the original, Scott> which appears to be from the 1920's. This place was built in Scott> 1900 and the wiring and other fancy stuff like running water Scott> were added years later. Scott> I *do* need to upgrade the wiring and service sometime soon. Scott> There are places in the cellar (which is beneath only one room Scott> of the house) where the wiring, although quite sound as far as Scott> I can estimate, is very scary looking. Getting a copy of the Electric Code would be a good idea (also "Wiring Simplified" by Richter, an excellent book). Knob & tube wiring is still legal (though you can't install more of it) -- which is more than I can say for some work I have seen in newer houses that was done by people who are licensed -- and clearly do not deserve to be. Stuff like grounding wires left unconnected in bathroom baseboard heaters... yikes. paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 12 09:25:10 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:25:10 +0000 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121178310.23456.27.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 08:50 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > Have you got OS install media? From what I gather it uses a different > > DomainOS install set from the other Apollo machines, so you may well > > have the last surviving copy if so - backing it up onto modern media > > might be nice! (or at least cloning the OS drive in the machine itself) > > No, I don't. > > There was a guy on this list years back that had a running 10K. What was > his name? You out there? Hopefully. Be nice to know there's one still running out there. We've got DN3000 / 3500 / 4000 / 4xx machines, but have never had any leads on a DN10k before. cheers Jules From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 12 09:32:00 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:32:00 -0400 Subject: DEC Microfiche question Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050712103200.00a21290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found some DEC microfiche. A lot of them are marked "LP030A.LIS LOGISTICS.PIC *CONFIDENTAL*". What are they? I don't have a viewer here at home but to the naked eye it looks like some kind of lists. Joe From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jul 12 09:39:21 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:39:21 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 References: <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <17107.54809.88326.125249@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> On 7/12/05, William Donzelli wrote: >> > I shudder when I picture aluminum core wiring... I just have >> visions > of it evaporating under load! :-) >> >> I am not sure how old youor house is, but beware - lots in the >> town have (or had) Al. Mine did (rather, I am still yanking it >> out). Ethan> Wasn't that popular to install in the 1970s? Yes, either copper clad (which is supposedly acceptable in copper-rated devices -- at least in a lot of them) and plain aluminum, which definitely requires nonstandard devices. It's still very common in the really big stuff (the 0000 gauge wire coming into new homes is probably Al) and that's probably ok. Then again, I use copper everywhere -- even for that big wire for the welder... paul From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Tue Jul 12 10:17:22 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:17:22 -0400 Subject: C128 system available In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050712103200.00a21290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050712103200.00a21290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050712111609.02842120@pop-server> In case anyone is interested. I got the following e-mail. Contact the original sender below if interested: ============================= I have a complete Commodore 128 system for sale. Please see detailed list of items below. The system is clean and was in complete working condition when boxed up about 8 years ago. Please contact me should you have interest in purchasing. Thanks. Charles Decker mrcfd at frontiernet.net Cookeville, TN ****************** Used Complete Commodore 128 System, Manuals, Software, Disk Storage Boxes Hardware (do not have original boxes) Commodore 128 computer with power supply, SN is CA1358909, Mfg. Date 10/85 Commodore 1571 disk drive SN is AB1010906 Tekmika 13? color monitor MJ-22 SN is 40908964 Star Micronics dot matrix printer SG 10/15 SN is 080050395267 (with ribbon, plastic cover has crack) joystick (no manufacturer name) ? short 3? stick with red button on square 3? base joystick ?Made in Hong Kong? ? 5? stick with thumb & index finger button, 5.5? circular base Xetec ?Super Graphix? card with Utility Disk v1.1 and instruction manual All standard length cables necessary to run the complete Hardware Manuals C128 ?Introductory Guide? C128 ?System Guide? C128 ?Please Read First? single sheet (set up guide) C1571 Users Guide Star Micronics dot matrix printer SG-10/15 Users Manual Tekmika 13? color monitor MJ-22 Owner?s Guide Original Software (5.25? floppies) Activision ?Fast Tracks? for C64/128 in original box with manual Batteries Included ?Paper Clip? for C64/128, manual with SpellPack ?block? Broderbund ?Print Shop? in original box with manual, reference cards, etc. for C64 Broderbund ?Print Shop Companion? in original box with manual, reference cards, etc. for C64/128 Commodore 128 ?Tutorial Disk?, ?CP/M System Disk?, ?CP/M Plus Version 3.0? Commodore 1571 ?Test/Demo Diskette with C128 OS Shell? Geos 128 ?Graphic Environment Operation System? (1987) in original box with manual Load?N?Go Software for C64/128 - ?Pro Financial Organizer?, ?Chess Champion?, ?Personal File Keeper?, ?Championship Gambler? Precision Software ?Superbase 64? with original box and manual (has no audio cassette) Sierra on Line ?BC?s Quest for Tires? with original cardboard jacket Springboard ?The Newsroom? for C64/128 in original plastic box, with manual, quick reference guide, etc. Sublogic ?Flight Simulator II? for C64 I in original box with manual Time Works ?Electronic Checkbook? for C64 in original box with manual 21 issues of Compute/Gazette Disk (May 89 to July 91) 3 issues Loadstar ?The Commodore Magazine on Disk? Additional items 25 blank (new ? unopened packet) 5.25? floppy disks 16 blank (new) 5.25? floppy disks 50 new paper envelope for diskettes 2 disk cases with flip top holds100 diskettes 1 disk case with flip top hold 50 diskettes From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 12 10:57:42 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:57:42 -0700 Subject: DEC Microfiche question Message-ID: <680df36e98ec1e6b853e1dbef062fca0@bitsavers.org> I found some DEC microfiche. A lot of them are marked "LP030A.LIS LOGISTICS.PIC *CONFIDENTAL*". What are they? -- Source listings. I don't recognize which ones, though. From kth at srv.net Tue Jul 12 11:03:14 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:03:14 -0600 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: References: <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <42D3E9C2.3000306@srv.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 7/12/05, William Donzelli wrote: > > >>>I shudder when I picture aluminum core wiring... I just have visions >>>of it evaporating under load! :-) >>> >>> >>I am not sure how old youor house is, but beware - lots in the town have >>(or had) Al. Mine did (rather, I am still yanking it out). >> >> > >Wasn't that popular to install in the 1970s? > >While I have no Al wiring in my 90-year-old house, I do have >knob-and-tube, which is why I ran two new 15A circuits to the back >bedroom for the computers. > >-ethan > > Many years ago (30+), my grandmothers house was wired by running cloth covered wires on insulators (like you see used for electric fences) inside the house. (not inside the walls) One wire on each side of the insulator. (No 3rd ground wire either) Want to try hooking up a mainframe using that type of wiring? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 12 11:03:13 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:03:13 -0700 Subject: DEC Microfiche question In-Reply-To: <680df36e98ec1e6b853e1dbef062fca0@bitsavers.org> References: <680df36e98ec1e6b853e1dbef062fca0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <898c5c9364b12332bd684bd49734d1d6@bitsavers.org> On Jul 12, 2005, at 8:57 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I found some DEC microfiche. A lot of them are marked "LP030A.LIS > LOGISTICS.PIC *CONFIDENTAL*". What are they? > > -- > > Source listings. I don't recognize which ones, though. On a related note, I generated the first PDF from Mekel M560 microfiche scanner output yesterday, the RH780 massbus adapter technical manual. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/780/EK-RH780-TD_TechDescr_Mar79.pdf I haven't quite figured out how to set up auto step and repeat yet, so I have to start each frame scan manually, but so far the scan quality is looking pretty good. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 11:33:16 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:33:16 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <42D3E9C2.3000306@srv.net> References: <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> <42D3E9C2.3000306@srv.net> Message-ID: On 7/12/05, Kevin Handy wrote: > I wrote: > >While I have no Al wiring in my 90-year-old house, I do have > >knob-and-tube > > > Many years ago (30+), my grandmothers house was wired by running > cloth covered wires on insulators (like you see used for electric fences) > inside the house. (not inside the walls) One wire on each side of the > insulator. (No 3rd ground wire either) That's like knob and tube. For those not so blessed, the nail-in insulators are the knobs, and the tubes are long ceramic tubes used as bushings through wood structural elements and metal ducting (yes, the wires go _through_ the ducting, not around). Part of the standard installation practice was to run the hot and neutral on opposite sides of the same joist where possible, but I have seen two parallel wires through the same knob, especially before corners, etc. Have to admit, though, that except for basements and attics, I've always seen that kind of wiring _inside_ the walls (or threaded through former gas-light pipes). I've never seen a ground wire with knob and tube. AFAIK, that didn't even come into fashion when they switched to asphalt-impregnated cloth-covered Romex (1940s?). I think ground wires became standard in my area post 1960, with the advent of plastic-covered Romex. > Want to try hooking up a mainframe using that type of wiring? Um... no! At least you'd be able to see the insulation failing as it smoked. ;-) -ethan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 12 11:42:48 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Power and the RA82 Message-ID: <200507121642.JAA27735@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "William Donzelli" > >> I shudder when I picture aluminum core wiring... I just have visions >> of it evaporating under load! :-) > >I am not sure how old youor house is, but beware - lots in the town have >(or had) Al. Mine did (rather, I am still yanking it out). > >One of the big problems with Aluminum is that it flows under pressure - >the pressure of a screw, for example. Tighten down a screw on a fixture, >and next year, you will probably be able to tighten a little more. Then >next year, a little more. > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > Hi The other is that is oxidizes quickly when exposed to air. Getting loose and oxidizing make for a hot connection when current of any kind goes through it. Add some flammable material and you have a nice bond fire. What were they thinking? Dwight From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 12 11:45:37 2005 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:45:37 -0400 Subject: Offer: Cache RAM chips from old 486 boards Message-ID: <42D3F3B1.1090409@sbcglobal.net> I've got a couple small boxes for cache RAM chips that have been pulled from old 486 motherboards. If you want them, it'll cost you a measly sum of $15.00 (US), to cover time, materials & shipping costs. Here's the list of what I've got: Qty: Mfg. part number (first line on chip only) 3 Winbond? W2465AK-15 1 GL? GLT725608-15T 11 ISSI IS61C512-15N 8 UMC UM61512AK-15 8 UMC UM61M256K-15 8 UMC UM61256CK-20 26 UMC UM61256CK-15 65 total chips. I can give you more info off of the chips if you like. I also have 2 Dallas DS1642-070 Timekeeping RAM chips. I got them as samples, intending on sticking them in a SparcStation 1+ I had. I've since given up on that box. These 2 were never stuck in any computer. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jul 12 11:50:44 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:50:44 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <200507121642.JAA27735@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200507121642.JAA27735@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <42D3F4E4.9000206@atarimuseum.com> I assume because its such a soft metal. I wonder what the max load/heat threshold on 12guage Aluminum vs Copper would be Curt Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>From: "William Donzelli" >> >> >> >>>I shudder when I picture aluminum core wiring... I just have visions >>>of it evaporating under load! :-) >>> >>> >>I am not sure how old youor house is, but beware - lots in the town have >>(or had) Al. Mine did (rather, I am still yanking it out). >> >>One of the big problems with Aluminum is that it flows under pressure - >>the pressure of a screw, for example. Tighten down a screw on a fixture, >>and next year, you will probably be able to tighten a little more. Then >>next year, a little more. >> >>William Donzelli >>aw288 at osfn.org >> >> >> >> > >Hi > The other is that is oxidizes quickly when exposed to air. >Getting loose and oxidizing make for a hot connection when >current of any kind goes through it. Add some flammable >material and you have a nice bond fire. > What were they thinking? >Dwight > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: 7/12/2005 From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jul 12 12:14:11 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:14:11 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 References: <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> <42D3E9C2.3000306@srv.net> Message-ID: <17107.64099.28129.277836@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Handy writes: Kevin> Many years ago (30+), my grandmothers house was wired by Kevin> running cloth covered wires on insulators (like you see used Kevin> for electric fences) inside the house. (not inside the walls) Kevin> One wire on each side of the insulator. (No 3rd ground wire Kevin> either) That's "knob & tube". Fine stuff, just freaky looking to the modern mind. Kevin> Want to try hooking up a mainframe using that type of wiring? No problem if the current rating is adequate. paul From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 12:18:04 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:18:04 +0100 Subject: Anyone want: Canon Microfiche Viewer/Printer, West Yorkshire, UK (move fast!) Message-ID: Hi list, I could grab this if anyone wants it (and can collect it from me soon - I don't have any space to store it, which is why I haven't grabbed it so far). It's called something like Canon PC Printer 80. Despite the name, it appears to have no interfaces at all on it. If anyone wants this, please let me know SOON (including a definite date when you will pick it up from me) and I'll go out and grab it. Don't know anything about the condition of it, I'm afraid. It certainly doesn't look trashed. Ed. From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jul 12 12:18:47 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:18:47 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 References: <200507121642.JAA27735@clulw009.amd.com> <42D3F4E4.9000206@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <17107.64375.81463.949963@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "curt" == curt <@ Atari Museum" > writes: curt> I assume because its such a soft metal. I wonder what the max curt> load/heat threshold on 12guage Aluminum vs Copper would be Rule of thumb is that you need the next step up in wire size (2 gauge numbers down) compared to copper for the same current rating. Aluminum is used because it's cheaper than copper for a given current rating. Also (in overhead lines) because it's lighter. If carefully installed with correct devices, it's supposed to be fine. If it's just a run from the transformer to the main breaker, that isn't too tough a requirement, and in any case the splices are in a steel box. The trouble starts when you run it all over the house, and have the job done by an incompetent bum with a license. paul From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 12 12:20:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Somewhat OT Knob & Tube wiring (was Re: Power and the RA82) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Have to admit, though, that except for basements and attics, I've > always seen that kind of wiring _inside_ the walls (or threaded > through former gas-light pipes). I've never seen a ground wire with > knob and tube. AFAIK, that didn't even come into fashion when they > switched to asphalt-impregnated cloth-covered Romex (1940s?). I think > ground wires became standard in my area post 1960, with the advent of > plastic-covered Romex. I once helped a friend wire a new T1 for his ISP. His office is located in a real old building with knob & tube wiring. Being the most limber, I agreed to go up into the attic and crawl around amongst the wiring to run the cable through. That was scary, as I had no idea if the wires were live or not and my friend's reassurance that the power was shut off didn't seem to be based on any factual knowledge. Very disconcerting. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jul 12 12:46:41 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:46:41 -0400 Subject: Update on HHC Basics In-Reply-To: <7EEC7D7A-A96E-4BB2-97C5-EA7620371A72@xlisper.mv.com> References: <200506011255.FAA20886@floodgap.com> <200506011255.FAA20886@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050712132430.03a0eec8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that David Betz may have mentioned these words: >I finally received my HHC Basic ROMs yesterday and they seem to work. >(Thanks Roger!) I *think* (and with the minimal remaining number of functional neutrons in my head, that's a toughie! :-O ) I have everyone caught up on the HHC Basics. To those people who were severely delayed on receiving their chips, I publicly apologize -- It was never my intention to let this project go "lax" like it did. If I did forget you, please raise your hands! Then lower them again, and type out an email to me, and I'll get you taken care of. I currently have a couple of days of "minimal insanity" with which I can clean up any last loose ends. >I do have a problem where it claims I have insufficient memory to >save even the smallest program. I seem to remember hearing someone >else complain of that problem as well but I never saw anyone post a >solution. That would've been me; I may have an idea to the cause, but I've not had a chance to try it. See below. > Has anyone been able to save programs? Is there some trick >involved? This is the first time I've used the machine and I suppose >there could be left over stuff in RAM that needs to be deleted. I found that I could get 1 program entered and running, by manually deleting everything I could find in the 'filesystem' and immediately going to the Basic and setting it to program input mode. [[ This is the first time I'd used the machine as well... ]] However, there was other 'flakeyness' with my HHC as well, and so I don't think it's a 'Basic-only' problem. > I would think it would have disappeared long ago though since the >batteries were dead when I bought the machine and I am only able to >run it off of the power supply. Has anyone had success saving programs? I *think* (and knowing near nothing about this machine, I really, really stress *think*) that the batteries _need_ to be functional. A lot of portable machines of this era used the batteries as an oversized 'smoothing capacitor' for lack of a better term and would not operate correctly without a working battery pack. (I have a Tandy 600 which exhibited similar memory wackyness when running it from AC only with no battery pack installed.) I have not had time to test this theory, however, so I might be 'full of condensed milk' as my father-in-law used to say. >Also, my machine has a menu entry offering to run SNAP programs but I >have been unable to find a description of the SNAP language. I >believe it is a Forth derivative. Can someone point me to a >description of the SNAP language? Wish I could; SNAP sounded kewl. What I can tell you is the machine uses a CMOS 6502, so if anyone can find a way to read the internal ROMS or figure out the BASIC enough to program a ROM dump utility, should be pretty easy for one who's good with 6502 disassemblers to maybe glean some knowledge about it. (M'self, I'm more a 6809 kinda guy...) As I have some really good soldering/desoldering tools now, I could take a stab at desoldering the ROM chip[s] and reading 'em directly... tho: 1) I wouldn't know where in memory it resides without manually tracing address lines & whatnot (which I don't have time for) ... or ... 2) I wouldn't have time to do this for at least a couple of months. But hey, we've been waiting almost 10 years now for Basic, right??? ;^P HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Tue Jul 12 13:17:37 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:17:37 +0200 Subject: Mystery box Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jul 12 13:32:55 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:32:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Power and the RA82" (Jul 12, 0:43) References: Message-ID: <10507121932.ZM13646@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jul 12 2005, 0:43, Tony Duell wrote: > > On a tangential note, is it possible to "lean" on a typical household > > breaker to stop it from tripping? Sort-of-like "battle override" on > > a Navy ship... Or is the lever only good for resetting, and holding > > it will not stop it from tripping? I think the latter but I've never > > tried it for real. > > I have an idea that it's a requirement in the UK that you can't do this > -- if the lever is jammed in the 'on' position, the breaker will still > trip. Certainly alkl those of reputable manufacture behave this way (you > can try holding the lever of an RCD in the 'on' position and pressing the > test button, it will still trip). RCDs are not the same. If you hold the lever of a standard miniature circuit breaker it will not trip. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jul 12 13:32:40 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:32:40 -0400 Subject: Somewhat OT Knob & Tube wiring (was Re: Power and the RA82) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D40CC8.10707@atarimuseum.com> AC "zaps" for a 10th of second at 110v isn't too bad when crawling around running wires, it smarts and leave a nasty tingling feeling in your teeth, makes you super wary the rest of the day. What is the most painful is hooking up a telco line (I used to work for an alarm company many many moons ago) and it just never failed that when you were wiring up the RJ31X fail-over box to the alarm system, somebody would call into the line and man does DC hurt and burn like a Mother-f'er!!! (RJ31X's are great little boxes that will fail the telco line over to the alarm box and cut the phone service to the rest of the house, this is good in case someone has left a phone off the hook or a burglar rushes in and starts punching numbers on the a telephones keypad to force the alarm to misdial the central station). Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > >>Have to admit, though, that except for basements and attics, I've >>always seen that kind of wiring _inside_ the walls (or threaded >>through former gas-light pipes). I've never seen a ground wire with >>knob and tube. AFAIK, that didn't even come into fashion when they >>switched to asphalt-impregnated cloth-covered Romex (1940s?). I think >>ground wires became standard in my area post 1960, with the advent of >>plastic-covered Romex. >> >> > >I once helped a friend wire a new T1 for his ISP. His office is located >in a real old building with knob & tube wiring. Being the most limber, I >agreed to go up into the attic and crawl around amongst the wiring to run >the cable through. That was scary, as I had no idea if the wires were >live or not and my friend's reassurance that the power was shut off didn't >seem to be based on any factual knowledge. Very disconcerting. > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: 7/12/2005 From computer at officereach.net Tue Jul 12 13:43:38 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:43:38 -0700 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Definitely a time machine. Or a tele-transportation device. You should sell it on ebay and make some money , quick; and while you're at it, send me some for figuring out what it is. I'd say that it's someone's project box judging by the TTL that's on it; that's standard stuff. Very standard. -----Original Message----- From: Stefan To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:17:37 +0200 Subject: Mystery box > Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? > http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ > > Stefan. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > From bdwheele at indiana.edu Tue Jul 12 13:40:50 2005 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:40:50 -0500 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1121193650.2743.27.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 11:43 -0700, plato computer wrote: > Definitely a time machine. Or a tele-transportation device. You should > sell it on ebay and make some money , quick; and while you're at it, send > me some for figuring out what it is. > I think you're missing the bigger picture...if you want to make real money on ebay, claim that the rust stain on top is an image of Elvis*. cha ching! Brian * or a deity/patron saint of your choice From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 12 13:38:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Stefan wrote: > Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? > http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ Obviously a meter of some sort. Perhapsa histogram? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 13:45:20 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:45:20 +0100 Subject: Wanted : IBM PS/2 Model 50 or 80 In-Reply-To: <53487.127.0.0.1.1120740543.squirrel@127.0.0.1> References: <200507070512.j675Cu1W080779@keith.ezwind.net> <53487.127.0.0.1.1120740543.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <575131af0507121145690348da@mail.gmail.com> On 7/7/05, birs23 at zeelandnet.nl wrote: > I am looking for an IBM PS/2 Model 50 or 80 > Has to be cheap and preferably in the Netherlands. > Anybody got a working one that they dont want anymore ? I have a fairly tricked-out top-of-the range '80: 25MHz 386DX + copro + L2 cache, 16MB RAM, dual SCSI cards, 300 + 1GB disks, Ethernet. Runs PC DOS 7, WinNT Server 3.51 & OS/2 Warp Server 4 (but I can't find NIC drivers for OS/2 for my Novell card). I don't /really/ want to sell it but I might be persuaded for a ridiculously-high offer. :-) (Ridiculously high <> very much, for a 386 in 2005!) I'm in London. Shipping will cost a bit - it weighs as much as a small car. I think the PS/2 cases were an iron/neutronium alloy. ;-) -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 12 13:40:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, plato computer wrote: > Definitely a time machine. Or a tele-transportation device. You should > sell it on ebay and make some money , quick; and while you're at it, send > me some for figuring out what it is. Great idea! Insinuate that it may (or may not) be an Apple-1. Why, I'll bet you could get $2,550 for it! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From news at computercollector.com Tue Jul 12 13:51:54 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:51:54 -0400 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <200507121900.j6CJ0YUP049170@keith.ezwind.net> It's a flux capacitor from a Deorean. Puts out 1.21 Jigowatts! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Stefan Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 2:18 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Mystery box Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Tue Jul 12 13:55:23 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:55:23 -0400 Subject: Mystery box Message-ID: The 74LS181 in the middle is a 4-bit ALU. Maybe it displays a mathematical result of some sort? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 11:39 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mystery box On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Stefan wrote: > Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? > http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ Obviously a meter of some sort. Perhapsa histogram? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From computer at officereach.net Tue Jul 12 14:05:32 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:05:32 -0700 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <200507121900.j6CJ0YUP049170@keith.ezwind.net> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> <200507121900.j6CJ0YUP049170@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: You boys ghotta spell Ghigawatts correctly, tho, if you're gonna be strutting your supreme knowledge of Shockkty Logic likez that. -----Original Message----- From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:51:54 -0400 Subject: RE: Mystery box > It's a flux capacitor from a Deorean. Puts out 1.21 Jigowatts! > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Stefan > Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 2:18 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Mystery box > > Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? > http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ > > Stefan. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jul 12 14:05:22 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:05:22 -0400 Subject: Somewhat OT Knob & Tube wiring (was Re: Power and the RA82) References: <42D40CC8.10707@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <17108.5234.397309.108373@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "curt" == curt <@ Atari Museum" > writes: curt> AC "zaps" for a 10th of second at 110v isn't too bad when curt> crawling around running wires, it smarts and leave a nasty curt> tingling feeling in your teeth, makes you super wary the rest curt> of the day. curt> What is the most painful is hooking up a telco line (I used to curt> work for an alarm company many many moons ago) and it just curt> never failed that when you were wiring up the RJ31X fail-over curt> box to the alarm system, somebody would call into the line and curt> man does DC hurt and burn ... Ring isn't DC. The steady state voltage on a phoneline is -48V DC (give or take quite a lot; I think the spec says the max is -60). Ring voltage is 10 Hz AC, around 100 volts. paul From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jul 12 14:23:35 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:23:35 -0400 Subject: Somewhat OT Knob & Tube wiring (was Re: Power and the RA82) In-Reply-To: <17108.5234.397309.108373@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42D40CC8.10707@atarimuseum.com> <17108.5234.397309.108373@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42D418B7.4090107@atarimuseum.com> Still burns and leaves the God-awefullest metal taste in your mouth when you get hit with a ring surge, You sure its AC? Doesn't make sense, but voltage on my meter would jump up from 48-52vdc to around 78-80vdc on the DVM Curt Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"curt" == curt <@ Atari Museum" > writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > > curt> AC "zaps" for a 10th of second at 110v isn't too bad when > curt> crawling around running wires, it smarts and leave a nasty > curt> tingling feeling in your teeth, makes you super wary the rest > curt> of the day. > > curt> What is the most painful is hooking up a telco line (I used to > curt> work for an alarm company many many moons ago) and it just > curt> never failed that when you were wiring up the RJ31X fail-over > curt> box to the alarm system, somebody would call into the line and > curt> man does DC hurt and burn ... > >Ring isn't DC. The steady state voltage on a phoneline is -48V DC >(give or take quite a lot; I think the spec says the max is -60). >Ring voltage is 10 Hz AC, around 100 volts. > > paul > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: 7/12/2005 From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jul 12 14:25:31 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:25:31 -0400 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> <200507121900.j6CJ0YUP049170@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42D4192B.7030905@atarimuseum.com> Maybe thats how Dr. Emmet Brown spellz it ;-) "Doc, lemme get this straight. You built a time machine.... out of a Delorean?!?!?" Marty McFly. Curt plato computer wrote: >You boys ghotta spell Ghigawatts correctly, tho, if you're gonna be >strutting your supreme knowledge of Shockkty Logic likez that. > >-----Original Message----- >From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" >To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:51:54 -0400 >Subject: RE: Mystery box > > > >>It's a flux capacitor from a Deorean. Puts out 1.21 Jigowatts! >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >>[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >>On Behalf Of Stefan >>Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 2:18 PM >>To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>Subject: Mystery box >> >>Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? >>http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ >> >>Stefan. >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------- >>http://www.oldcomputercollection.com >> >> >> >> > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: 7/12/2005 From computer at officereach.net Tue Jul 12 14:36:26 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:36:26 -0700 Subject: Somewhat OT Knob & Tube wiring (was Re: Power and the RA82) In-Reply-To: <42D418B7.4090107@atarimuseum.com> References: <42D40CC8.10707@atarimuseum.com> <17108.5234.397309.108373@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42D418B7.4090107@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: yeah, it's AC alright. 20hz at 72volts is nothing to screw around with. It's like riding a slow wave... it don't necessarily kill you... but it sure does suck. You know why it was 20hz / 72volts? Because it has to do with the way that the original bells inside of the circuitry on a phone would react so perfectly to that. I love em' old phones. -----Original Message----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: General at smtp5.suscom.net, "Discussion at smtp5.suscom.net":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:23:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Somewhat OT Knob & Tube wiring (was Re: Power and the RA82) > Still burns and leaves the God-awefullest metal taste in your mouth > when > you get hit with a ring surge, You sure its AC? Doesn't make > sense, > but voltage on my meter would jump up from 48-52vdc to around 78-80vdc > on the DVM > > > Curt > > > Paul Koning wrote: > > >>>>>>"curt" == curt <@ Atari Museum" > writes: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > > > > curt> AC "zaps" for a 10th of second at 110v isn't too bad when > > curt> crawling around running wires, it smarts and leave a nasty > > curt> tingling feeling in your teeth, makes you super wary the rest > > curt> of the day. > > > > curt> What is the most painful is hooking up a telco line (I used to > > curt> work for an alarm company many many moons ago) and it just > > curt> never failed that when you were wiring up the RJ31X fail-over > > curt> box to the alarm system, somebody would call into the line and > > curt> man does DC hurt and burn ... > > > >Ring isn't DC. The steady state voltage on a phoneline is -48V DC > >(give or take quite a lot; I think the spec says the max is -60). > >Ring voltage is 10 Hz AC, around 100 volts. > > > > paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: > 7/12/2005 > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 12 14:26:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:26:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Somewhat OT Knob & Tube wiring (was Re: Power and the RA82) In-Reply-To: <42D418B7.4090107@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Still burns and leaves the God-awefullest metal taste in your mouth when > you get hit with a ring surge, You sure its AC? Doesn't make sense, > but voltage on my meter would jump up from 48-52vdc to around 78-80vdc > on the DVM Yes, it's AC. That's why it hurts. DC would feel strange perhaps but not like AC. The reason you saw voltage at 80VDC is because your digital meter samples slowly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From kth at srv.net Tue Jul 12 14:38:13 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:38:13 -0600 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <42D41C25.20906@srv.net> Stefan wrote: > Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? > http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ > > Stefan. Looks like a one-off to me (perf-board construction). But looks professionally made: leds line up and are evenly spaced, wire is neatly tied up, heat shrink tubing for strain relief, etc. It looks like a switch is recently missing (P1/P2), you can still see the accumulated gunk around the hole where it used to be, and what looks like some loose wires. It apparently received power from whatever it was plugged into. I'm guessing it is some kind of alignent gear, where you adjusted the equipment under test until the lit led was at 0. Have you tried to power it up and see what happens? I'd guess you should be able to attach 5v to the appropriate places on any of the IC's. Part of a cylon suit? From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jul 12 14:51:26 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:51:26 -0400 Subject: Somewhat OT Knob & Tube wiring (was Re: Power and the RA82) In-Reply-To: References: <42D418B7.4090107@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050712154349.03a1cf90@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > Still burns and leaves the God-awefullest metal taste in your mouth when > > you get hit with a ring surge, You sure its AC? Doesn't make sense, > > but voltage on my meter would jump up from 48-52vdc to around 78-80vdc > > on the DVM > >Yes, it's AC. That's why it hurts. DC would feel strange perhaps but not >like AC. The reason you saw voltage at 80VDC is because your digital >meter samples slowly. Or -- some meters when set to DC and fed AC will measure the RMS [kinda DC-equivalent value] voltage of the AC... 100+V AC * .707 = 70+V DC. The equation for figuring RMS voltage on sine-wave AC is: 1/sqrt(2) (I've seen up to 110V AC myself [more on hand-cranked military handsets], so that would get awfully close to the 80V the OP saw...) Just a thought, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jul 12 14:57:40 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:57:40 -0400 Subject: Somewhat OT Knob & Tube wiring (was Re: Power and the RA82) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050712154349.03a1cf90@mail.30below.com> References: <42D418B7.4090107@atarimuseum.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050712154349.03a1cf90@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <42D420B4.30800@atarimuseum.com> Roger, Thanks dude, great to know ! :-) Curt Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these > words: > >> On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> >> > Still burns and leaves the God-awefullest metal taste in your mouth >> when >> > you get hit with a ring surge, You sure its AC? Doesn't make >> sense, >> > but voltage on my meter would jump up from 48-52vdc to around 78-80vdc >> > on the DVM >> >> Yes, it's AC. That's why it hurts. DC would feel strange perhaps >> but not >> like AC. The reason you saw voltage at 80VDC is because your digital >> meter samples slowly. > > > Or -- some meters when set to DC and fed AC will measure the RMS > [kinda DC-equivalent value] voltage of the AC... > > 100+V AC * .707 = 70+V DC. > > The equation for figuring RMS voltage on sine-wave AC is: > 1/sqrt(2) > > (I've seen up to 110V AC myself [more on hand-cranked military > handsets], so that would get awfully close to the 80V the OP saw...) > > Just a thought, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me > zmerch at 30below.com. | > SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: 7/12/2005 From computer at officereach.net Tue Jul 12 15:07:44 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:07:44 -0700 Subject: Somewhat OT Knob & Tube wiring (was Re: Power and the RA82) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050712154349.03a1cf90@mail.30below.com> References: <42D418B7.4090107@atarimuseum.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050712154349.03a1cf90@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > (I've seen up to 110V AC myself [more on hand-cranked military > handsets], > so that would get awfully close to the 80V the OP saw...) was our tester crawling under a tank? -----Original Message----- From: Roger Merchberger To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:51:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Somewhat OT Knob & Tube wiring (was Re: Power and the RA82) > Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these > words: > >On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > > > Still burns and leaves the God-awefullest metal taste in your mouth > when > > > you get hit with a ring surge, You sure its AC? Doesn't make > sense, > > > but voltage on my meter would jump up from 48-52vdc to around > 78-80vdc > > > on the DVM > > > >Yes, it's AC. That's why it hurts. DC would feel strange perhaps but > not > >like AC. The reason you saw voltage at 80VDC is because your digital > >meter samples slowly. > > Or -- some meters when set to DC and fed AC will measure the RMS [kinda > DC-equivalent value] voltage of the AC... > > 100+V AC * .707 = 70+V DC. > > The equation for figuring RMS voltage on sine-wave AC is: > 1/sqrt(2) > > (I've seen up to 110V AC myself [more on hand-cranked military > handsets], > so that would get awfully close to the 80V the OP saw...) > > Just a thought, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me > zmerch at 30below.com. | > SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jul 12 14:55:16 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Somewhat OT Knob & Tube wiring (was Re: Power and the RA82) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050712154349.03a1cf90@mail.30below.com> References: <42D418B7.4090107@atarimuseum.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050712154349.03a1cf90@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200507122006.QAA27313@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Or -- some meters when set to DC and fed AC will measure the RMS > [kinda DC-equivalent value] voltage of the AC... > 100+V AC * .707 = 70+V DC. Not quite. When one sees (say) "120V AC", that 120V *is* the RMS value; "120V" is actually 120/sqrt(.5) = about 170V peak. (Assuming a pure sine wave, that is, which is close enough for practical purposes when dealing with mains power.) As for "kinda DC-equivalent", it *is* equivalent as far as mean power delivered into a purely resistive load goes, which is why that measure is used: 120 RMS volts AC into (say) 120 ohms will dissipate as much power, long-term average, as 120 volts DC into the same load. (RMS here stands for Root-Mean-Square, which is a thumbnail description of the mathematics involved: it's the square root of the mean value of the square of the instantaneous voltage. This is derived thus: let the voltage, as a function of time, be v(t). The current into a load of resistance r will then, by Ohm's law, be i(t)=v(t)/r and the power will be i(t)v(t), or v(t)^2/r. If we now work let c be the constant DC voltage necessary to dissipate the same amount of power, average, we find that c^2/r=mean(v(t)^2)/r, leading directly to the RMS formula. sqrt(2) comes into it because that's what the RMS computation produces when v(t) is a pure sine wave.) > The equation for figuring RMS voltage on sine-wave AC is: 1/sqrt(2) Only if you start with the peak AC voltage, which is not what voltmeters normally indicate when measuring AC voltages. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 12 13:45:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:45:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: <20050711203332.5c2da90f.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jul 11, 5 08:33:32 pm Message-ID: > Its my understanding (but I've only seen it as a rumor, not as hard > technical fact) that the reason the original IBM Monitors plug into the > PC Power Supply and not directly into an outlet is that they were > vulnerable to damage (probably the same horizontal drive problem) if > left powered on independent of the PC. I've heard that rumour too, but I can't understand why, after looking at the schematics. The horizontal drive is transformer-coupled, so it doesn't matter if the input gets stuck high or low, it still won't turn on the output transsitor. > > I at one point had an original IBM monitor that had a direct power cord > connector and understood at the time that it was one of the very early The CGA and EGA nonitors of course connect separately to the mains. The MDA monitor has a built-in power cable ending in an IEC plug that would, in theroy, fit into a normal 'kettle lead'. AFAIK all were built like that. I am using a 5151 now. On the grounds it doesn't have a power switch of its own, I plug it into the outlet on the system unit PSU. I suspect, though, it would do no damage to power it separately. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 12 13:46:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:46:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <200507120415.AAA21463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jul 12, 5 00:12:36 am Message-ID: > > > G, S, and P are, of course, Gold == 5%, Silver == 10% and Plain == > > unspecified tolerance > > If by "Plain" you mean "no fourth band", I thought that indicated > "20%", not "unspecified". That's what I believe too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 12 13:51:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:51:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <1121165998.23435.21.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 12, 5 10:59:58 am Message-ID: > Actually, are we only counting machines that ran Unix-a-like systems, or > anything in the workstation class? (i.e. does PERQ qualify? :-) And just how would you describe PNX? (for the uninitiated, PNX, pronounced peenix, is essentially PERQ Unix. I am not sure how much AT&T code is in it, but probably quite a bit, actually. It was available for the PERQ 1 and 2 machines (AFAIK there never was a version for the PERQ 2T4, and the 68020-based PERQ 3a ran nothing else). -tony From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jul 12 15:43:29 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:43:29 -0700 Subject: DEC Microfiche question In-Reply-To: <898c5c9364b12332bd684bd49734d1d6@bitsavers.org> References: <680df36e98ec1e6b853e1dbef062fca0@bitsavers.org> <898c5c9364b12332bd684bd49734d1d6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200507121343.29395.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 12 July 2005 09:03, Al Kossow wrote: > On Jul 12, 2005, at 8:57 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > I found some DEC microfiche. A lot of them are marked "LP030A.LIS > > LOGISTICS.PIC *CONFIDENTAL*". What are they? > > > > -- > > > > Source listings. I don't recognize which ones, though. > > On a related note, I generated the first PDF from Mekel M560 microfiche > scanner output yesterday, the RH780 massbus adapter technical manual. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/780/EK-RH780-TD_TechDescr_Mar79.pdf > > I haven't quite figured out how to set up auto step and repeat yet, so > I have to start each frame scan manually, but so far the scan quality > is looking pretty good. It's very readable, Al. Given the size/density of ufiche, I'd say it's outstanding. Pardon my ignorance - but some of the sheets in the manual are horizonal/large. Were the fiche images larger or did you have to enlarge them? (I have some fiche - but they are all the same size images). Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 12 15:43:42 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:43:42 -0400 Subject: DEC KL8-A questions Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050712164342.009c4da0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I picked up a panel that's marked for the KL8-A. I know the KL8-A is a Multiple Serial Line Unit for the PDP-8 but I'm not sure exactly what I have here. The panel is 19" wide and is a deep U shape. It has eight H 319 A units on it. Each H319 has a short (18"?) cable coming out of it that terminates with a Mate-N-Lock connector. I also have two cable sets with four small cables (~8' long) in each one that all connect into two 50 pin Berg connectors. The other end of each cable has a 10 pin (4 used) Mate-N-Lock connector that's connected to one of the connectors from one of the H319 units. The other side of the H319s also has a Mate-N-Lock connector but I don't have the cables that connect to them. Q1: What exactly do I have here? Q2: What are the H319 units for? Q3: Anybody have the pinout for the outputs of the H319As? I'm guessing that the Berg connectors connect with two M8365 MSLU cards and that the H319As convert the current loop outputs to RS-232 to give 8 RS-232 outputs. Joe From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 12 15:46:40 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:46:40 -0500 Subject: Muahaha :) Fujitsu Eagles Message-ID: <006801c58722$ce6cc5c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I have found a stash of 4 or 5 Fujitsu Eagle drives, currently in service and working. They are currently hooked up to a MicroVAX I believe. They will be available free, but only to people who will use them - no taking them to ebay. I certainly don't want them all. Interested parties contact me off-list. Jay From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 12 15:53:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:53:04 -0400 Subject: DEC Microfiche question In-Reply-To: <200507121343.29395.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <898c5c9364b12332bd684bd49734d1d6@bitsavers.org> <680df36e98ec1e6b853e1dbef062fca0@bitsavers.org> <898c5c9364b12332bd684bd49734d1d6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050712165304.00a2dea0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:43 PM 7/12/05 -0700, Lyle wrote: >On Tuesday 12 July 2005 09:03, Al Kossow wrote: >> On Jul 12, 2005, at 8:57 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> > I found some DEC microfiche. A lot of them are marked "LP030A.LIS >> > LOGISTICS.PIC *CONFIDENTAL*". What are they? >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Source listings. I don't recognize which ones, though. >> >> On a related note, I generated the first PDF from Mekel M560 microfiche >> scanner output yesterday, the RH780 massbus adapter technical manual. >> >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/780/EK-RH780-TD_TechDescr_Mar79.pdf >> >> I haven't quite figured out how to set up auto step and repeat yet, so >> I have to start each frame scan manually, but so far the scan quality >> is looking pretty good. > >It's very readable, Al. Given the size/density of ufiche, I'd say it's >outstanding. > >Pardon my ignorance - but some of the sheets in the manual are >horizonal/large. Were the fiche images larger or did you have to enlarge >them? (I have some fiche - but they are all the same size images). The "Using Your DIDITAL Microfiche Library" book that I have says that they made the images in both 1/24 reduction and 1/42 reduction. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 12 16:04:49 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:04:49 -0400 Subject: DEC Microfiche question In-Reply-To: <898c5c9364b12332bd684bd49734d1d6@bitsavers.org> References: <680df36e98ec1e6b853e1dbef062fca0@bitsavers.org> <680df36e98ec1e6b853e1dbef062fca0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050712170449.009cf720@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:03 AM 7/12/05 -0700, you wrote: > >On Jul 12, 2005, at 8:57 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> I found some DEC microfiche. A lot of them are marked "LP030A.LIS >> LOGISTICS.PIC *CONFIDENTAL*". What are they? >> >> -- >> >> Source listings. I don't recognize which ones, though. They don't LOOK like source listings but I guess I'll have to dig out a viewer to find out. > >On a related note, I generated the first PDF from Mekel M560 microfiche >scanner output yesterday, the RH780 massbus adapter technical manual. Very Handy! I suppose you have to position it manually for each page. How long does it take to do each sheet of of fiche? How many sheets do you have waiting to be scanned? Joe > >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/780/EK-RH780-TD_TechDescr_Mar79.pdf > >I haven't quite figured out how to set up auto step and repeat yet, so >I have to start each frame scan manually, but so far the scan quality >is looking pretty good. > > > From mmaginnis at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 16:10:51 2005 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:10:51 -0600 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 7/12/05, Stefan wrote: > Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? > http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ > > Stefan. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > > A Tardis. - Mike From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jul 12 16:06:16 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:06:16 -0500 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050712160523.0ba8d930@mail> At 01:55 PM 7/12/2005, you wrote: >The 74LS181 in the middle is a 4-bit ALU. Maybe it displays a mathematical >result of some sort? Displaying two channels of something in a log-y looking scale. I'll guess an audio meter. It looks like it's been scavenged of its P1/P2 switch. - John From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Jul 12 16:16:33 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:16:33 +0100 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: <1121178310.23456.27.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <008f01c58726$fad817a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> We still run 3500's at work (don't mention disks or tape drives though..........) Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 3:25 PM Subject: Re: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 > On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 08:50 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Have you got OS install media? From what I gather it uses a different > > > DomainOS install set from the other Apollo machines, so you may well > > > have the last surviving copy if so - backing it up onto modern media > > > might be nice! (or at least cloning the OS drive in the machine itself) > > > > No, I don't. > > > > There was a guy on this list years back that had a running 10K. What was > > his name? You out there? > > Hopefully. Be nice to know there's one still running out there. We've > got DN3000 / 3500 / 4000 / 4xx machines, but have never had any leads on > a DN10k before. > > cheers > > Jules > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Jul 12 16:20:57 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:20:57 -0700 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types References: Message-ID: <42D43439.4F5077DF@msm.umr.edu> originally the IBM division that did terminals owned the PC and that may have had something to do with it. It was later during a squabble over it's impact on system sales that it finally broke loosed into a separate division. It could have had to do with UL approvals as well, though I have no basis to prove that. Jim Tony Duell wrote: > > Its my understanding (but I've only seen it as a rumor, not as hard > > technical fact) that the reason the original IBM Monitors plug into the > > PC Power Supply and not directly into an outlet is that they were > > vulnerable to damage (probably the same horizontal drive problem) if > > left powered on independent of the PC. > > I've heard that rumour too, but I can't understand why, after looking at > the schematics. The horizontal drive is transformer-coupled, so it > doesn't matter if the input gets stuck high or low, it still won't turn > on the output transsitor. From djg at drs-c4i.com Tue Jul 12 16:32:35 2005 From: djg at drs-c4i.com (David Gesswein) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:32:35 -0400 Subject: Multibus-I Prototyping Boards Message-ID: <200507122132.j6CLWZF26428@drs-c4i.com> Its been many years since I have done anything with Multibus I but the SBC-80 ones seem like they might be what you are wanting. http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/intel.html From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Mon Jul 11 20:44:36 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:44:36 -0500 Subject: Where can I get DECmail-11? Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Hey I was just curious, because I don't see DECmail-11 listed on Mentec's or HP's website, does that mean that they don't care about DECmail-11 anymore? If so, does anyone know where I can get a copy? Julian From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jul 12 04:47:24 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:47:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: What about TSX+ ? was Re: Where can I get DECmail-11? In-Reply-To: References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <28453.195.212.29.83.1121161644.squirrel@195.212.29.83> On a similar note, I tried to contact S and H about a licence for my install of TSX+ on my PDP-11. I've got install disks for up to 6.4 (I think, need to check) but not the instructions and release notes. I sent a couple of emails asking if they would either say it was cool for me to keep it, or ask me to buy a licence (because I buy software that I use, even if it is for toys). I never ever got a response. So I don't know if they are just keeping quiet because they are ignoring me, or keeping quiet because they don't care about TSX+ for the PDP-11 any more (they do sell an i386 version, it seems). I don't want to give out copies of the disks I have either, unless I know it's cool with them. Gordon. From zahidsolo at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 07:46:02 2005 From: zahidsolo at yahoo.com (z r) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 05:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Z8001/Z8002 CPU Message-ID: <20050712124602.65672.qmail@web33002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Joe R Good morning For Z8002 you need Compiler or technique to use it, I have so many Z80 , I try to use it in the begining , but then I shift to 8051 and Atmel AVR microcontrollers, its fine. At tat time I have Cd with compilers for Zilog , If I will look again I may get it again. I worked a lot on microprocessors system. Also I removed these Zilog ICs from some big PC Bords from scrap. I think some place I have the pin configration and instruction set for Z8002. Also If you want to exchange two three pieces of Z8002 with Z80s then I may also try. Micro controllers have benifit that no connections are required, but they are slower then microprocessor system Regards ZahisZolo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bv at norbionics.com Tue Jul 12 11:53:46 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 12:53:46 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? In-Reply-To: References: <200507112313.QAA27188@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <52d2d0657a4c36b64569a14f16284688@norbionics.com> On 11 Jul, 2005, at 21:18, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/11/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> If that didn't work, a last resort might >> be to use some small wire wrap wire and melt a channel >> into the plastic layer to keep from deforming the stack >> too much > > I've seen the results of attempts at that. Let me put it this way - > try it right before you are ready to pitch the whole mess. > > there's not enough pressure to make contact between oxidized traces > printed on mylar and any kind of wire. The mylar sheeting is thin > enough that you are more likely to perforate the mylar than "melt a > channel" _Perhaps_ some kind of foil overlay might work, but it would > have to be akin to gold leaf, and you'd need a solder alloy that > melted below the temp of the plastic to get any sort of joint. For > that matter, if you had an uber-low-temp solder (200F? 300F?), you > might be able to overlay entire traces with WW wire, but not if the > plastic develops holes. There is a kind of silver paste used for thick-film circuits which might be usable for this type of repair. -- -bv From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Tue Jul 12 13:34:30 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:34:30 -0400 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050712143040.032748f8@mail.n.ml.org> diagnostic breakout box for mr. t's pocket *****/vibrator? "i pity the tool" ??? just kidding. no clue, looks like a breakout diag box for some soft of comm cable with possibly a C64 or even an older altair unit. -John Boffemmyer IV At 02:17 PM 7/12/2005, you wrote: >Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? >http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ > >Stefan. > > > >------------------------------------------------------- >http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: 7/12/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: 7/12/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: 7/12/2005 From vrs at email.msn.com Tue Jul 12 07:02:26 2005 From: vrs at email.msn.com (vrs) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 05:02:26 -0700 Subject: Teleprint 390 References: <42D18D11.5030004@hachti.de> <6.2.3.4.0.20050711224431.02b45ed0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: From: "Stefan" > I just hooked up my Teleprint 390 to my laptop and it works like a > charm, almost 100%. I can type on my laptop and the output appears on > both the papertape as typed. And what I type on the Teleprint appears > on my laptop but what it doesn't do is when I feed it a papertape > output it on the laptop (only parts). It does output it correctly on > the Teleprint itself. Any idea's what might be wrong here ? > I am not a real technical person but willing to give anything a try :-) I think it is likely that your 390 is generating two stop bits. If your laptop isn't expecting that, it would likely construe the second stop bit as a start bit and begin looking for the next character. If none is forthcoming (as when you are typing, but not too fast), things would be sort of OK. If another character is sent immediately, it won't be framed correctly (the proper start bit would likely be construed as data). The fix for this would require you to set your laptop hardware for two stop bits. (I have no idea if that is possible, or how to do it.) If you get the data correctly from the reader in bursts, that is puzzling, and suggests that something else/additional may be going on. Vince From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Tue Jul 12 14:08:54 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:08:54 -0500 Subject: Need a Qbus pertec card Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55BBEC@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I'm looking for a Pertec tape controller that emulates TS11 or whatever. Needs to be qbus and do 1600BPI. Also needs to be cheap. Looking for something like a DQ132. Thanks! Julian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 12 16:46:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:46:18 +0000 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121204778.23435.116.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 19:51 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Actually, are we only counting machines that ran Unix-a-like systems, or > > anything in the workstation class? (i.e. does PERQ qualify? :-) > > And just how would you describe PNX? > It was available for the PERQ 1 and 2 machines (AFAIK there never was a > version for the PERQ 2T4, and the 68020-based PERQ 3a ran nothing else). Ahhh... I didn't know the 3a was purely a Unix system... (I knew about PNX - just thought that hardly anyone ran it on the 1 & 2 machines as everyone was running POS, and that was supposed to be the primary OS for the systems) cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 12 16:46:59 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:46:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050712144559.X10997@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Definitely a time machine. Or a tele-transportation device. You should > > sell it on ebay and make some money , quick; and while you're at it, send > > me some for figuring out what it is. > > Great idea! Insinuate that it may (or may not) be an Apple-1. Why, I'll > bet you could get $2,550 for it! NO WAY that that i8s an Apple-1. 'course it MIGHT be Woz's unsuccessful prototype foe a "Blue Box" From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jul 12 16:50:57 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:50:57 -0400 Subject: Where can I get DECmail-11? References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <17108.15169.491574.74268@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Julian" == Julian Wolfe writes: Julian> Hey I was just curious, because I don't see DECmail-11 listed Julian> on Mentec's or HP's website, does that mean that they don't Julian> care about DECmail-11 anymore? If so, does anyone know where Julian> I can get a copy? It's a PDP11 program so it should belong to Mentec now, since they got all DEC PDP11 software as far as I know. It may be that they haven't bothered listing it. Email might help. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 12 16:53:25 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Somewhat OT Knob & Tube wiring (was Re: Power and the RA82) In-Reply-To: <42D40CC8.10707@atarimuseum.com> References: <42D40CC8.10707@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20050712145207.M10997@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > AC "zaps" for a 10th of second at 110v isn't too bad when crawling . . . > would call into the line and man does DC hurt and burn like a last time that I checked, the spec called for 90VAC at 20 Hz. ... and YES, it Hertz. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 12 16:58:17 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery box Message-ID: <200507122158.OAA27872@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> > Definitely a time machine. Or a tele-transportation device. You should >> > sell it on ebay and make some money , quick; and while you're at it, send >> > me some for figuring out what it is. >> >> Great idea! Insinuate that it may (or may not) be an Apple-1. Why, I'll >> bet you could get $2,550 for it! > >NO WAY that that i8s an Apple-1. >'course it MIGHT be Woz's unsuccessful prototype foe a "Blue Box" Hi It looks like some kind of data compare. It shows + and - and has an adder to create the result. I'd guess it was use to balance something. It might have been two digital signals from two A/D's or something like that. It is obviously a "One-Of" type unit. Most likely made for a production test or something like that. Even if one traced the circuit, one might never know its original use. Dwight From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Jul 12 16:58:51 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:58:51 -0400 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <42D43D1B.nailN3V1LPGTH@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox Looks to me like it takes a binary input over the D-sub connector, compares it with what's dialed in on the switches, and shows the differences in dot or bargraph form. Dot-bargraph is very handy for tweaking adjustable pots etc. Very necessary for your Plutonium-238 space modulator. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Jul 12 17:00:19 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:00:19 -0400 Subject: What about TSX+ ? was Re: Where can I get DECmail-11? In-Reply-To: <28453.195.212.29.83.1121161644.squirrel@195.212.29.83> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <28453.195.212.29.83.1121161644.squirrel@195.212.29.83> Message-ID: <42D43D73.nailNA11REO8X@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Just TSX+ by itself isn't particularly useful. You need to install RT-11, and then use that to load TSX+ and configure it to your system. To do useful stuff with TSX+ (like, oh, copy files, assemble programs, etc.) you still need the RT-11 utilities. Tim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 17:05:03 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:05:03 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? In-Reply-To: <52d2d0657a4c36b64569a14f16284688@norbionics.com> References: <200507112313.QAA27188@clulw009.amd.com> <52d2d0657a4c36b64569a14f16284688@norbionics.com> Message-ID: On 7/12/05, Bj?rn Vermo wrote: > There is a kind of silver paste used for thick-film circuits which > might be usable for this type of repair. If you can get electrical contact from trace to trace and get the paste to not migrate, that might be a workable solution. -ethan From tomj at wps.com Tue Jul 12 17:13:53 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20050712151317.R5282@fiche.wps.com> > Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? > http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ Looks like an original Apple I to me. Steve W. most certainly made this. From tomj at wps.com Tue Jul 12 17:17:38 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20050712151354.U5282@fiche.wps.com> On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Stefan wrote: > Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? > http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ There is no way to tell what it is precisely from photos, make a schematic and maybe we can. It's obviously hand made. Well it's got a 74181 4-bit ALU, and a demux and flops, but a lot of LEDs, so maybe it calculates CRCs, checksums, or tallies input pulses, or counts complicated events. There's enough glue in there to make a decent little processor-like state machine with ALU, so it could be a very clever little box, but it probably solves some specialized niche function, and without knowing where and how you'll likely never know. From tomj at wps.com Tue Jul 12 17:19:27 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <42D2ED9C.nailDJK1AGRTA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050711165551.0251f230@mail.ubanproductions.com> <42D2ED9C.nailDJK1AGRTA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20050712151831.M5282@fiche.wps.com> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: > On a tangential note, is it possible to "lean" on a typical household > breaker to stop it from tripping? Sort-of-like "battle override" on > a Navy ship... Or is the lever only good for resetting, and holding > it will not stop it from tripping? I think the latter but I've never > tried it for real. Sure, but why not just take the breaker out and twist the two ends together with black tape? Only slightly less safe... :-) From news at computercollector.com Tue Jul 12 17:20:35 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:20:35 -0400 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <20050712151317.R5282@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <200507122228.j6CMSSUY051884@keith.ezwind.net> Ah, quit being silly already! Obviously it is a Macintosh prototype. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Jennings Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 6:14 PM Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mystery box > Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? > http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ Looks like an original Apple I to me. Steve W. most certainly made this. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 12 17:16:34 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:16:34 -0600 Subject: Somewhat OT Knob & Tube wiring (was Re: Power and the RA82) In-Reply-To: <20050712145207.M10997@shell.lmi.net> References: <42D40CC8.10707@atarimuseum.com> <20050712145207.M10997@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <42D44142.6030009@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > > last time that I checked, the spec called for 90VAC at 20 Hz. > ... and YES, it Hertz. > Well 20 HZ is the low end of HI-FI so don't ignore it. :) However for some reason I still like a mechanical bell better for a phone than all the singing and dancing stuff you get with a modern phone. From tomj at wps.com Tue Jul 12 17:23:29 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <200507121642.JAA27735@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200507121642.JAA27735@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050712152053.X5282@fiche.wps.com> On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > The other is that is oxidizes quickly when exposed to air. > Getting loose and oxidizing make for a hot connection when > current of any kind goes through it. Add some flammable > material and you have a nice bond fire. All the above is true, and a huge problem with Al wiring is electrochemical corrosion, eg. dissimilar metals. There's a good to apply to mechanical connections to minimize the effects, but really, that's a hint it's a bad idea in the first place. > What were they thinking? I, too, wonder at what was going on with this clearly terrible idea. Cost, I assume, but even that's silly -- it's a classic case of lifetime system cost increase >> component cost savings. A contractor-friendly savings; they're long out of there by the time problems manifest. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Tue Jul 12 17:35:52 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:35:52 +0200 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <20050712151354.U5282@fiche.wps.com> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> <20050712151354.U5282@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050713003503.02de3e60@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Hehehe, I figured as much. Anyway, it'll probably end up in the dumpster. At 00:17 13-7-2005, you wrote: >On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Stefan wrote: > >>Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? >>http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ > >There is no way to tell what it is precisely from photos, make a >schematic and maybe we can. It's obviously hand made. > >Well it's got a 74181 4-bit ALU, and a demux and flops, but a lot >of LEDs, so maybe it calculates CRCs, checksums, or tallies input >pulses, or counts complicated events. There's enough glue in there >to make a decent little processor-like state machine with ALU, so >it could be a very clever little box, but it probably solves some >specialized niche function, and without knowing where and how >you'll likely never know. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 12 17:26:32 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:26:32 -0400 Subject: Another DEC KL8-AA Question Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050712182632.0079e4d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> FIRST. This is NOT the panel that I was describing in my earlier question about the KL8 stuff. This is an entirely different panel. Does anyone recognize this panel? It's marked KL8-AA M8319 on the back. But it's marked by hand so that may not be accurate. It has two ribbon cable connectors that I'm guessing connect to one or two M8319 cards. It also has eight Mate-N-Lock connectors marked J2 through J5 and J7 through J10. It also has eight DB-25M connectors marked P1 though P4 and P5 through P8. Just as a guess I'd say that it can use the cables with the Mate-N-Lock connectors or cables with DB-25F connectors and it looks like it can handle a total of eight serial data lines. Anybody know if that's correct or what machine it's for? Joe From tomj at wps.com Tue Jul 12 17:29:39 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: References: <42D18D11.5030004@hachti.de> <6.2.3.4.0.20050711224431.02b45ed0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: <20050712152514.B5282@fiche.wps.com> > From: "Stefan" >> I just hooked up my Teleprint 390 to my laptop and it works like a >> charm, almost 100%. I can type on my laptop and the output appears on >> both the papertape as typed. And what I type on the Teleprint appears >> on my laptop but what it doesn't do is when I feed it a papertape >> output it on the laptop (only parts). It does output it correctly on >> the Teleprint itself. Any idea's what might be wrong here ? >> I am not a real technical person but willing to give anything a try :-) On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, vrs wrote: > I think it is likely that your 390 is generating two stop bits. If your > laptop > isn't expecting that, it would likely construe the second stop bit as a > start > bit and begin looking for the next character. Sorry, not correct... a stop bit is simply the line sitting in the spacing state, eg. it's like a pause between characters, so it will not trip up comm. systems. It's always safe to have more than one stop bit, though it lowers the number of characters/second (at 110, you'll hardly notice :-) I'm a little unclear on your problem, I'll restate for clarity, correct me if I'm wrong: ** When you type on the tty keyboard, correct characters appear on the laptop? Absolutely 100% of the time? ** When you run a punched paper tape through the reader, it prints correctly on the tty, but what you see on the laptop does not match the tty? From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 12 18:04:14 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teleprint 390 Message-ID: <200507122304.QAA27881@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Stefan" > >I just hooked up my Teleprint 390 to my laptop and it works like a >charm, almost 100%. I can type on my laptop and the output appears on >both the papertape as typed. And what I type on the Teleprint appears >on my laptop but what it doesn't do is when I feed it a papertape >output it on the laptop (only parts). It does output it correctly on >the Teleprint itself. Any idea's what might be wrong here ? >I am not a real technical person but willing to give anything a try :-) > >Stefan. > Hi Some computers are especially slow at doing a linefeed to the screen. I'd think it could keep up with 110 Baud though. Most teletypes have some way for a signal from the computer to throttle the paper tape read ( as I recall ). You might look at connecting some handshake. You didn't state if it was making mistakes from the first character or if it read several right and then lost it. If it read some right, how long does it go before it makes mistakes? Any line feeds involved? Dwight From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jul 12 18:10:50 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:10:50 -0700 Subject: What about TSX+ ? was Re: Where can I get DECmail-11? In-Reply-To: <28453.195.212.29.83.1121161644.squirrel@195.212.29.83> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <28453.195.212.29.83.1121161644.squirrel@195.212.29.83> Message-ID: <200507121610.50764.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 12 July 2005 02:47, gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: > On a similar note, I tried to contact S and H about a licence for my > install of TSX+ on my PDP-11. I've got install disks for up to 6.4 (I > think, need to check) but not the instructions and release notes. I sent > a couple of emails asking if they would either say it was cool for me to > keep it, or ask me to buy a licence (because I buy software that I use, > even if it is for toys). I never ever got a response. > > So I don't know if they are just keeping quiet because they are ignoring > me, or keeping quiet because they don't care about TSX+ for the PDP-11 any > more (they do sell an i386 version, it seems). I don't want to give out > copies of the disks I have either, unless I know it's cool with them. > > Gordon. I contacted S&H ("Harry Sanders" ) in April, 2004 and asked if I could have a copy of the "final" version of TSX-Plus to "play with" as a collector on a real PDP-11. We had a great conversation - and he emailed me a "master" ZIP file containing: -rw-r--r-- 1 lpb users 61682 2001-07-11 10:33 COBOL_P1.ZIP -rw-r--r-- 1 lpb users 64086 2001-07-11 10:33 COBOL_P2.ZIP -rw-r--r-- 1 lpb users 105312 2001-07-11 10:34 COBOL_P3.ZIP -rw-r--r-- 1 lpb users 21025 2001-07-11 10:31 RTSORT.ZIP -rw-r--r-- 1 lpb users 102797 2001-07-06 17:18 TSDIS1.ZIP -rw-r--r-- 1 lpb users 127593 2001-07-06 17:19 TSDIS2.ZIP -rw-r--r-- 1 lpb users 131433 2001-07-06 17:19 TSDIS3.ZIP -rw-r--r-- 1 lpb users 115122 2001-07-06 17:20 TSDIS4.ZIP -rw-r--r-- 1 lpb users 959468 2001-07-13 13:49 TSXPDOCS.ZIP These ZIPs contain the TSX Plus system files, docs, applications, etc. I also found out the they "lost" the source code to TSX Plus when changing system (IIRC). You can contact Harry (email above) or I'll be glad to contact him again to see if I can generally release the "TSX.ZIP" he sent me (If others are interested). Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Jul 12 18:11:41 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:11:41 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: Message-ID: <001301c58737$135229f0$0100a8c0@screamer> I've got scads of Apollo hardware and documentation. Most of it needs a new home, but there has been little interest so far. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 12:34 PM Subject: Re: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 > > > I think Suns will always be collectable, as they are now. There are > some > > weird things they have made over the years that people seek. > > Early machines from the 'workstation wars', Apollo and Tektronix come to > mind, may be of interest in the future. There doesn't appear to be much > on the technical doc or software side around for these. I tried contacting > they guy who was working on the Apollo port for NetBSD to get the tech > info > he was able to collect, but got nowhere. > > People seem to have saved the later SGI IRIS (3xxx series) though, > probably > because of the neat graphics demos. > > From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Jul 12 18:16:36 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:16:36 -0400 Subject: Multibus-I Prototyping Boards References: <00ac01c586b1$e8b470c0$3324083d@river> Message-ID: <002301c58737$c0df7c30$0100a8c0@screamer> I've got one. ----- Original Message ----- From: "river" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 3:18 AM Subject: Multibus-I Prototyping Boards Hi, I'm looking for some Multibus-I prototyping/blank PCB for some development work I'm doing. I've searched the net but found very little. Does anyone know if these boards are still made and who sells them, assuming they're still available? seeyuzz river From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 18:17:12 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:17:12 +0100 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050711112504.00a22100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <20050710135051.H50937@shell.lmi.net> <3.0.6.32.20050711112504.00a22100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <575131af0507121617c7a6753@mail.gmail.com> On 7/11/05, Joe R. wrote: > At 07:10 PM 7/10/05 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > >That's really not a half bad idea. Is it legal to take advantage of > >stupid people? > > Sure it is. What do you think lotterys are all about? That's "lotteries". Words ending in Y when the penultimate letter is a consonant change -y to -ies when forming the plural. If the preceding letter is not a consonant - in other words it's a vowel - then an S is suffixed in the normal way. So "monkey" -> "monkeys", "key" -> "keys", "day" -> "days", but "penny" -> "pennies" and "sky" -> "skies". Now, of course, some people might say anyone but a moron would know that. I, genuinely, wouldn't, but I think it shows a point. Saying that, the eBay sale does sound pretty damned stupid, but I missed the original entry... P.S. Agree 100% about lotteries! -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 12 18:37:41 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:37:41 +0100 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <42D4192B.7030905@atarimuseum.com> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> <200507121900.j6CJ0YUP049170@keith.ezwind.net> <42D4192B.7030905@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In message <42D4192B.7030905 at atarimuseum.com> "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > "Doc, lemme get this straight. You built a time machine.... out of a > Delorean?!?!?" > Marty McFly. "The way I see it, if you're going to build a time machine into a car, why not do it with some style?" And then there's... "Doc, you disintegrated Einstein!" "Calm down, Marty, I didn't disintegrate anything. The molecular structure of both Einstein and the car are completely intact!" "Then where the hell *are* they?" "The appropriate question is '*When* the hell are they?' You see, Einstein has just become the world's first time traveller!" OK, that's enough movie quotes for now... I think I've drawn more than enough weird stares today.. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Life. Hate it, or ignore it. You can't like it. From KParker at workcover.com Tue Jul 12 18:47:30 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:17:30 +0930 Subject: Nice Xerox 820 System... Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C2AE@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> I actually have one of these and wondered what it was. I rescued it from someone's front veranda a few years ago but have never fired it up. I'd like to give the drives a really good clean before I do but haven't got around to sourcing any documentation on this machine. I basically got a box full of dust which happened to have some electrical bits in it :-) When I picked it up I got a box full of 8" floppies and a heap of CPM manuals - I think they were badged NEC so I'm not sure if there is any correlation between the two. I'll do a hunt for some docs when I'm ready to go but in the mean time if anyone has any pointers to such stuff I'd be most grateful. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curt @ Atari Museum Sent: Tuesday, 12 July 2005 11:05 PM To: General at smtp3.suscom.net; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Nice Xerox 820 System... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5217542 932&rd=1 $9.99 opening bid, no reserve.... not mine, looks like a good deal. Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: 7/12/2005 ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 12 18:14:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:14:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: <000101c58719$c68d2c40$a1daf63f@vrshome.msn.com> from "vrs" at Jul 12, 5 05:02:26 am Message-ID: > I think it is likely that your 390 is generating two stop bits. If your Very likely. I think all Model 33s do. > laptop > isn't expecting that, it would likely construe the second stop bit as a > start > bit and begin looking for the next character. If none is forthcoming (as I'd love to know why, considering that start and stop bits have opposite levels. In general, a receiver won't care if the transmitter generates too many start bits, but may well object to too few. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 12 18:24:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:24:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <1121204778.23435.116.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 12, 5 09:46:18 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 19:51 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Actually, are we only counting machines that ran Unix-a-like systems, or > > > anything in the workstation class? (i.e. does PERQ qualify? :-) > > > > And just how would you describe PNX? > > It was available for the PERQ 1 and 2 machines (AFAIK there never was a > > version for the PERQ 2T4, and the 68020-based PERQ 3a ran nothing else). > > Ahhh... I didn't know the 3a was purely a Unix system... > (I knew about PNX - just thought that hardly anyone ran it on the 1 & 2 > machines as everyone was running POS, and that was supposed to be the > primary OS for the systems) Some PERQ-fanatics don't consider the 3a to be a real PERQ. After all, it's got a single-chip processor running a fixed instruction set (and not a board of chips with user-modifyable microcode), it's got an optomechanical mouse (and not an electromagnetic tablet), it's got a SCSI disk interface (and not a custom disk controller that can put filesystem pointers in the sector headers), etc. The 3a is almost, but not quite 'yet another unix box'. Not quite because it does have a user-microcodable processor -- the graphics one. On the classic PERQs (1, 1a, 2T1, 2T2), there are several available OSes. POS is single-tasking, but has the advantage of supporting user-written microcode. PNX is unix with a windowing front end -- it's not bad, but why get a PERQ and just run unix on it. There's also Accent, which I know little about other than it's muiti-user and uses something close to the POS filesystem. -tony From rick at rickmurphy.net Tue Jul 12 19:03:22 2005 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:03:22 -0400 Subject: Another DEC KL8-AA Question In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050712182632.0079e4d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050712182632.0079e4d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050712195740.01e5fcd0@mail.itm-inst.com> At 06:26 PM 7/12/2005, Joe R. wrote: > > > FIRST. This is NOT the panel that I was describing in my earlier >question about the KL8 stuff. This is an entirely different panel. > > Does anyone recognize this panel? It's marked KL8-AA M8319 on the > back. >But it's marked by hand so that may not be accurate. It has two ribbon >cable connectors that I'm guessing connect to one or two M8319 cards. It >also has eight Mate-N-Lock connectors marked J2 through J5 and J7 through >J10. It also has eight DB-25M connectors marked P1 though P4 and P5 >through >P8. Just as a guess I'd say that it can use the cables with the >Mate-N-Lock >connectors or cables with DB-25F connectors and it looks like it can >handle >a total of eight serial data lines. Anybody know if that's correct or what >machine it's for? The KL8-A is a M8319 card. It's a four channel serial line controller. It'll do RS232 or 20mA current loop, one line with modem control. The patch panel (a H326) that you're describing connects to two M8319 cards for 8 serial lines. There were cables that provided four serial outputs without the patch panel; apparently you have one or more of those. Bitsavers has a copy of the KL8-A documentation. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/EK-KL80A-OP-001_KL8-A_jan78.pdf -Rick From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Jul 12 19:29:14 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:29:14 -0700 Subject: wild and possibly idiotic idea- what do you think? Message-ID: The recent discussions about unsupported software led me to think about old O/Ss in general. It seems that possibly one of the reasons that companies are not releasing them is due to the amount of work involved in contacting all the other groups who licensed bits to the software (e.g. AT&T for UNIX) (I have no idea how these agreements were set up, so it might not be an issue, but . . .) Anyway, to the point- perhaps if some group were able to decide on a list of systems they really want to see available, and secure the permission of other interested parties, then we could see some of these older software available for free to hobbyest users (stuff like DOMAIN/OS/Aegis, older MCA AIX, IRIX). I know that in some cases (PERQ et al.) it will be difficult to figure out who to contact, but some we could just read of the copyright screen. Enough drivel, dumb idea or not? -Scott Quinn From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Jul 12 19:32:12 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:32:12 -0700 Subject: Mystery box References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <42D4610C.FD3697CE@msm.umr.edu> pinout on db-37 suggests power on orange leads to pins 37-35 (or 36) heavier guage wires that go to board and have different shrink insulation (blue) at the board. the p1 and p2 switches were removed, but could be reinstalled, since the wires are showing dangling in photo 14 in the upper left. LED's probably are not driven directly, due to transistor (2222's?) which are across the top of the board. There is a 74123 monostable, which may be used for clocking. Interesting to have bcd -> decimal, that may be used for either actual decode, or was frequently used as a selector if you had under 10 total things to gate. parts list: 4ea 74L02 quad 2input nor 2ea 74L42 BCD to Decimal Decoder 3ea 7404 hex inverter 2ea 74ls181 4 bit alu 1ea 74L75 4 bit bistable latch 1ea 74123 monostable 2ea 74ls83 4 bit full adder fast carry 1ea 74ls75 dual 4 bit latch 1ea 74ls76 jk flipflop 1ea 74ls00 quad dual input nand Stefan wrote: > Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? > http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ > > Stefan. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Jul 12 19:34:52 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:34:52 -0700 Subject: Wanted : IBM PS/2 Model 50 or 80 References: <200507070512.j675Cu1W080779@keith.ezwind.net> <53487.127.0.0.1.1120740543.squirrel@127.0.0.1> <575131af0507121145690348da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42D461AC.C838471E@msm.umr.edu> i have several 20's 30's 50's 70's and 80's. (i think a 55 might be in the pile too) unknown disk drive status, some were working some were not, and some are untested. Also have ibm industrial version of the 80 numbered with a 7xxx number. forgot what that was. bad news, they are in california. all stored locally here in LA area Jim Liam Proven wrote: From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 12 20:07:01 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:07:01 -0700 Subject: DEC Microfiche question Message-ID: <657463f760b086621a4997190205df6e@bitsavers.org> Pardon my ignorance - but some of the sheets in the manual are horizonal/large. Were the fiche images larger or did you have to enlarge them? (I have some fiche - but they are all the same size images). -- Computer Output to Microfilm (listings and such) will have the same size frames, but documents might not, since they have foldouts. This particular document was all post-processed by hand, scanning oversized frames and cropping to 8x11 or 11x17 effective size. It took about two hours to reformat all the scans. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 12 20:13:24 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:13:24 -0700 Subject: DEC Microfiche question Message-ID: > Very Handy! I suppose you have to position it manually for each page. nope. it should be step and repeat for the entire sheet, once I understand how to set up all the parameters. the device is not a fiche reader with scanner bolted on. it is an x/y table with adjustable lens and imaging array. there's a pci motherboards buried inside running DOS, which we backed up a couple days ago. here's a picture of one (it's a LOT bigger and heavier than it looks...) http://www.cadcam.org/pscnmekel.php > How many sheets do you have waiting to be scanned? thousands.. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 12 20:16:53 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:16:53 -0700 Subject: Apollo stuff Message-ID: Bob said: "I've got scads of Apollo hardware and documentation. Most of it needs a new home, but there has been little interest so far." Well, I'm interested. Just the logistics of getting it across the country. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 12 20:19:01 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:19:01 -0700 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 Message-ID: > On the classic PERQs (1, 1a, 2T1, 2T2), there are several available OSes. Until these have been archived, it is best to say "there WERE several available OSes" I've archived one or two versions of POS, but that's it so far. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 12 20:21:11 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:21:11 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 References: <200507121642.JAA27735@clulw009.amd.com> <20050712152053.X5282@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <003601c58749$27b98840$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone wrote...(re: AL wiring) >> What were they thinking? Someone else replied... > I, too, wonder at what was going on with this clearly terrible > idea. Cost, I assume, but even that's silly -- it's a classic > case of lifetime system cost increase >> component cost savings. > A contractor-friendly savings; they're long out of there by the > time problems manifest. They were thinking about WW2, that's when people switched to AL as copper was scarce on the home front. At least that's what I recall being told. Plus I know there was a time back when our house was originally built that copper was astronomically expensive (I think pennies changed to clad then?) and that may also have been a driving factor. About half the wiring in my house is AL, the rest copper. As long as you use the switches & outlets made for AL, and every few years undo them all, rough up the ends, apply the special AL goo stuff, and tighten them back down it IS safe. However, it's a royal PAIN to maintain the way it's supposed to be. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 12 20:29:40 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:29:40 -0500 Subject: What about TSX+ ? was Re: Where can I get DECmail-11? References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU><28453.195.212.29.83.1121161644.squirrel@195.212.29.83> <200507121610.50764.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <009b01c5874a$587046d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Lyle wrote... > I contacted S&H ("Harry Sanders" ) in April, 2004 and > asked if I could have a copy of the "final" version of TSX-Plus to "play > with" as a collector on a real PDP-11. We had a great conversation - and > he > emailed me a "master" ZIP file containing: I did the same thing, but a few years prior, probably around 1999. Harry was great to talk to on the phone, and very helpful. He charged me a nominal fee for him to runoff the full original documentation (I think it actually WAS in runoff format). So, I have a recent and complete (and "factory") set of docs. I mentioned about "getting legal", because the copy of TSX+ that I have came from a licensed site that was no longer running it (they gave me their original disks {both RX50 and RX02 formats}). He said the cost to transfer the license from my High School to me would be about $200 or somesuch. While he did not come out and say it directly, he left me with the very distinct impression that he really didn't care if I used it (without license transfer) for home hobbyist use. HOWEVER, do not take his words to me as a grant to you. What I'm driving at is that it is worthwhile probably to approach him with this. Along those lines, I'd be VERY interested in that ZIP file, as there are some S&H layered products I'd like to have, plus, it'd be very handy to have the docs in electronic format for my own reference. Regards, Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 12 20:43:53 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:43:53 -0500 Subject: 11/45 progress & questions Message-ID: <00ba01c5874c$59235840$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Got the 2nd rack attached & cleaned up, as well as installed an 861C power control module. It's ready for the BA11 and then the other peripherals. Of course, when I went to get about mounting the BA11, I realized I have the inner rails (still bolted to the BA11), but I don't have the outer rails. These rails look exactly (to me) like the 11/34 mounting rails, with the pull-forward-and-the-box-tilts-setup. I've heard these 11/34 type rails are unobtanium. So, does anyone have spare outer rails for those type if rails - or any suggestions as to other ways to rack it up? I took the inner "tilting rails" off the BA11 to see if any other slides I have might work (but not tilt of course) and the holes just don't seem to line up in any good way. Thoughts? I have truckloads of RA81 slides spare :> The DL11 controller has a crystal that does odd baud rates, the only usable one by any of my terminals is 110 baud (I think the crystal in it is like 408.xxxx or somesuch. I read in the docs that you can use a different crystal and get more "common" (and higher) baud rates. The docs tell me what speed crystal to get - but is this crystal something I can just order from jameco/digikey/whoever and plug it in? The docs sound like it is only a crystal swap required. Correct? Thanks for any advice! Jay West From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Jul 12 21:09:37 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:09:37 -0500 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: References: <200507120415.AAA21463@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050712210937.37eb3733.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:46:57 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > G, S, and P are, of course, Gold == 5%, Silver == 10% and Plain == > > > unspecified tolerance > > > > If by "Plain" you mean "no fourth band", I thought that indicated > > "20%", not "unspecified". > > That's what I believe too. > > -tony 'Unspecified' would leave a rather wide margin for the resistor manufacturer. I used to joke about why there's no tolerance band on 'zero ohm jumpers' (short-circuit shunts built with the same package outline as a resistor, often used in instances where a board-stuffing machine needs to put *something* in a hole where a resistor might have gone. Usually they have one black band in place of the regular 'resistance value' bands). But what's the tolerance on a zero ohm jumper if it measures 20 milliohms on an accurate low-resistance bridge? (divide overflow) From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Jul 12 21:14:13 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:14:13 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <42D3E9C2.3000306@srv.net> References: <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> <42D3E9C2.3000306@srv.net> Message-ID: <20050712211413.31a18589.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:03:14 -0600 Kevin Handy wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >On 7/12/05, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > > >>>I shudder when I picture aluminum core wiring... I just have > >visions>>of it evaporating under load! :-) > >>> > >>> > >>I am not sure how old youor house is, but beware - lots in the town > >have>(or had) Al. Mine did (rather, I am still yanking it out). > >> > >> > > > >Wasn't that popular to install in the 1970s? > > > >While I have no Al wiring in my 90-year-old house, I do have > >knob-and-tube, which is why I ran two new 15A circuits to the back > >bedroom for the computers. > > > >-ethan > > > > > Many years ago (30+), my grandmothers house was wired by running > cloth covered wires on insulators (like you see used for electric > fences) inside the house. (not inside the walls) One wire on each side > of the insulator. (No 3rd ground wire either) > > Want to try hooking up a mainframe using that type of wiring? > I've never powered up anything bigger than a quad pentium-pro server on the 'knob and tube' (what you described) wiring in my house. I do aim to sometime not to far off start messing with the SparcServer 1000. But wouldn't you need three phase power and/or 220 volt service for most 'real' mainframes? (I have three phase outputs on my Homelite Gasoline generator) From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jul 12 21:38:26 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:38:26 -0700 Subject: What about TSX+ ? was Re: Where can I get DECmail-11? In-Reply-To: <009b01c5874a$587046d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU><28453.195.212.29.83.1121 161644.squirrel@195.212.29.83> <200507121610.50764.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <009b01c5874a$587046d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: At 8:29 PM -0500 7/12/05, Jay West wrote: >Along those lines, I'd be VERY interested in that ZIP file, as there >are some S&H layered products I'd like to have, plus, it'd be very >handy to have the docs in electronic format for my own reference. I think there are a lot of us that would be interested in copies. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bear at typewritten.org Tue Jul 12 21:45:25 2005 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:45:25 -0700 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ED2B092-D905-418D-B9E8-9855D477ABCF@typewritten.org> On Jul 12, 2005, at 5:50 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > There was a guy on this list years back that had a running 10K. > What was > his name? You out there? I have SR10.4.P but no DN10000. ok bear From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jul 12 22:00:56 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:00:56 -0700 Subject: What about TSX+ ? was Re: Where can I get DECmail-11? In-Reply-To: References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <009b01c5874a$587046d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200507122000.57019.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 12 July 2005 19:38, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:29 PM -0500 7/12/05, Jay West wrote: > >Along those lines, I'd be VERY interested in that ZIP file, as there > >are some S&H layered products I'd like to have, plus, it'd be very > >handy to have the docs in electronic format for my own reference. > > I think there are a lot of us that would be interested in copies. > > Zane Since there are at least a few folks who'd like the TSX+ ZIP, I'll follow up and see if I can get permission to "release" it to the collector community. I'll let them know I'll be glad to track who gets it, etc. Hopefully, that won't be necessary and they will just be glad that folks are enjoying learning their old software :-) Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jul 12 22:11:52 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:11:52 -0400 Subject: What about TSX+ ? was Re: Where can I get DECmail-11? In-Reply-To: <200507121610.50764.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <28453.195.212.29.83.1121161644.squirrel@195.212.29.83> <200507121610.50764.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <42D48678.1000803@mdrconsult.com> Lyle Bickley wrote: > These ZIPs contain the TSX Plus system files, docs, applications, etc. I also > found out the they "lost" the source code to TSX Plus when changing system > (IIRC). > > You can contact Harry (email above) or I'll be glad to contact him again to > see if I can generally release the "TSX.ZIP" he sent me (If others are > interested). Definitely I'm interested! Doc From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jul 12 23:07:31 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:07:31 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <20050712211413.31a18589.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> <42D3E9C2.3000306@srv.net> <20050712211413.31a18589.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200507122307.31423.pat@computer-refuge.org> Scott Stevens declared on Tuesday 12 July 2005 09:14 pm: > On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:03:14 -0600 > > Want to try hooking up a mainframe using that type of wiring? > > But wouldn't you need three phase power and/or 220 volt service > for most 'real' mainframes? (I have three phase outputs on my > Homelite Gasoline generator) Uhm, you don't have 220V service to your house? I don't think I'd consider moving into a house that doesn't have at least 100A, 240V service. And even then, the 100A service would get upgrade to 240V service fairly soon after I moved in... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jul 12 23:41:47 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:41:47 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <200507122307.31423.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> <20050712211413.31a18589.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200507122307.31423.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200507122341.47700.pat@computer-refuge.org> Patrick Finnegan declared on Tuesday 12 July 2005 11:07 pm: > Scott Stevens declared on Tuesday 12 July 2005 09:14 pm: > > On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:03:14 -0600 > > > > > Want to try hooking up a mainframe using that type of wiring? > > > > But wouldn't you need three phase power and/or 220 volt service > > for most 'real' mainframes? (I have three phase outputs on my > > Homelite Gasoline generator) > > Uhm, you don't have 220V service to your house? I don't think I'd > consider moving into a house that doesn't have at least 100A, 240V > service. And even then, the 100A service would get upgrade to 240V > service fairly soon after I moved in... Blah, I meant "the 100A service would get upgraded to 200A service" Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bqt at Update.UU.SE Wed Jul 13 00:11:36 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:11:36 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Where can I get DECmail-11? In-Reply-To: <17108.15169.491574.74268@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <17108.15169.491574.74268@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Julian" == Julian Wolfe writes: > > Julian> Hey I was just curious, because I don't see DECmail-11 listed > Julian> on Mentec's or HP's website, does that mean that they don't > Julian> care about DECmail-11 anymore? If so, does anyone know where > Julian> I can get a copy? > > It's a PDP11 program so it should belong to Mentec now, since they got > all DEC PDP11 software as far as I know. It may be that they haven't > bothered listing it. Email might help. No, they didn't get all PDP-11 software. As far as I know, XXDP is still with DEC, as is IAS. So it was not a general and complete transfer of all software, but rather one of specific things... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Wed Jul 13 00:36:35 2005 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (GManuel (GMC)) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 01:36:35 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? In-Reply-To: <46e70d050507111509710d6a3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Louis, I have had similar problems with my SX-64 in the past as well. What it turned out to be for me was some loose connetions inside the computer. Once I open it up and reseat all socketed chips and any edge connectors with the boards inside everything worked fine again. Never had a keyboard go bad on me yet (knock wood), this has always fixed it up right away for me. Hope this helps, Greg Manuel > -----Original Message----- > From: Louis Florit [mailto:florit at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 6:10 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? > > > Hi, I pulled out my 64-sx out of the box it's been stored with in > anticipation of getting my JiffyDos upgrade installed into it. To my > dismay, when I plugged it all in and powered it on, the keyboard > wouldn't work properly. Any of the keys have to be pressed multiple > times (3 to 10 times) in order to get the character to show up on > screen. > > Any suggested remedies? I'm wondering if the keyboard contacts are > just a little dirty and need a little cleaning, but I wanted to check > with the gurus before prying it apart. > > Thanks, > Louis > > -- > Louis Florit > AIM: lflorit MSN:louis_florit at hotmail.com Y!: indygolunaria > > > > ==> See forgotten passwords befind **** asterisks: www.SeePassword.com From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 01:06:04 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:06:04 +0800 Subject: What about TSX+ ? was Re: Where can I get DECmail-11? In-Reply-To: <42D48678.1000803@mdrconsult.com> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <28453.195.212.29.83.1121161644.squirrel@195.212.29.83> <200507121610.50764.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <42D48678.1000803@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On 7/13/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > Lyle Bickley wrote: > > > > These ZIPs contain the TSX Plus system files, docs, applications, etc. I also > > found out the they "lost" the source code to TSX Plus when changing system > > (IIRC). > > > > You can contact Harry (email above) or I'll be glad to contact him again to > > see if I can generally release the "TSX.ZIP" he sent me (If others are > > interested). > > Definitely I'm interested! > Hate to be a metoo, but me too! :-) /wai-sun From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jul 13 01:57:49 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:57:49 +0100 Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? In-Reply-To: <52d2d0657a4c36b64569a14f16284688@norbionics.com> References: <200507112313.QAA27188@clulw009.amd.com> <52d2d0657a4c36b64569a14f16284688@norbionics.com> Message-ID: <42D4BB6D.1060708@gjcp.net> Bj?rn Vermo wrote: > There is a kind of silver paste used for thick-film circuits which might > be usable for this type of repair. > I've had very good results using silver paint for repairing heated car window tracks. Gordon. From GOOI at oce.nl Wed Jul 13 02:19:03 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:19:03 +0200 Subject: What about TSX+ ? was Re: Where can I get DECmail-11? Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D8A@gd-mail03.oce.nl> I hate to do this, but this will be my first "me too", Lyle. I have the original TSX documentation binder and release notes of what is now available on bitsavers, but no software on whatever media. So, I am certainly interested! tnx, - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: woensdag 13 juli 2005 4:38 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What about TSX+ ? was Re: Where can I get DECmail-11? At 8:29 PM -0500 7/12/05, Jay West wrote: >Along those lines, I'd be VERY interested in that ZIP file, as there >are some S&H layered products I'd like to have, plus, it'd be very >handy to have the docs in electronic format for my own reference. I think there are a lot of us that would be interested in copies. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jul 13 02:53:23 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:53:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: What about TSX+ ? was Re: Where can I get DECmail-11? In-Reply-To: Lyle Bickley "Re: What about TSX+ ? was Re: Where can I get DECmail-11?" (Jul 12, 20:00) References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <009b01c5874a$587046d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200507122000.57019.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <10507130853.ZM15111@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jul 12 2005, 20:00, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Tuesday 12 July 2005 19:38, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I think there are a lot of us that would be interested in copies. > Since there are at least a few folks who'd like the TSX+ ZIP, I'll follow up > and see if I can get permission to "release" it to the collector community. > > I'll let them know I'll be glad to track who gets it, etc. My 11/40 would like a copy :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 13 06:21:12 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:21:12 +0000 Subject: Apollo stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121253672.25329.10.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 18:16 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > Bob said: > > "I've got scads of Apollo hardware and documentation. > Most of it needs a new home, but there has been little interest so far." > > Well, I'm interested. Just the logistics of getting it across the > country. A list of what there is would be nice to see - probably too expensive to ship it across the pond though. Question for Apollo fans - when setting up an Apollo token ring, is it really as simple as just chaining the machines together in a loop? I seem to remember the manuals (the few that we do have) mentioning plugging in to wall-mounted boxes, but it's not clear if those are just for cable routing or whether they actually do something more important. We're still short a Domain keyboard here, and I think we only have one of the little interface cables that connects the network cabling to the token ring card itself - hopefully there's nothing special to those though and we can make something up. I'd just like to know if it's vital to find the wall boxes though! :-) cheers Jules From fryers at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 06:37:32 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:37:32 +0100 Subject: Apollo stuff In-Reply-To: <1121253672.25329.10.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1121253672.25329.10.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: All, On 7/13/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 18:16 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > A list of what there is would be nice to see - probably too expensive to > ship it across the pond though. > > Question for Apollo fans - when setting up an Apollo token ring, is it > really as simple as just chaining the machines together in a loop? I > seem to remember the manuals (the few that we do have) mentioning > plugging in to wall-mounted boxes, but it's not clear if those are just > for cable routing or whether they actually do something more important. The wall boxes are just fancy make before break connection boxes. The ring works fine without them. > We're still short a Domain keyboard here, and I think we only have one > of the little interface cables that connects the network cabling to the > token ring card itself - hopefully there's nothing special to those > though and we can make something up. I'd just like to know if it's vital > to find the wall boxes though! :-) Most of the Apollo range happily talk to a serial console so a screen/keyboard isn't really necessary. However in my not so humble opinion, I am yet to see anything that is anywhere near as nice as the GUI. . There isn't anything fancy to the token ring cables. I forget the impedance but the first Apollos I used where two connected back to back using butchered token ring cables and some nice gold plated connectors (F connectors is my memory serves me correctly). >From memory, they also boot happily across Ethernet. Although, 12Mb/s Token ring is far nicer then 10Mb/s CSMA/CD. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 13 07:21:06 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:21:06 +0000 Subject: Apollo stuff In-Reply-To: References: <1121253672.25329.10.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1121257266.25310.20.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 12:37 +0100, Simon Fryer wrote: > The wall boxes are just fancy make before break connection boxes. The > ring works fine without them. That's good to hear :) > > We're still short a Domain keyboard here, and I think we only have one > > of the little interface cables that connects the network cabling to the > > token ring card itself - hopefully there's nothing special to those > > though and we can make something up. I'd just like to know if it's vital > > to find the wall boxes though! :-) > > Most of the Apollo range happily talk to a serial console so a > screen/keyboard isn't really necessary. However in my not so humble > opinion, I am yet to see anything that is anywhere near as nice as the > GUI. . Agreed! I haven't tested all our earlier Apollos yet anyway, so it's possible that one might be beyond repair and so become a spare machine - freeing up a keyboard (I've not tried an early-style Domain keyboard on a later 4xx machine yet though; electrically they're compatible but I don't know if the protocol's the same) > From memory, they also boot happily across Ethernet. Although, 12Mb/s > Token ring is far nicer then 10Mb/s CSMA/CD. I've got a feeling that the earlier 3000-era machines don't have Ethernet as standard anyway (although a card could be added, but I have no idea what boards the OS would recognise). Using the ATR would seem like the way to go to make a little domain, with one of the later 4xx machines that also has an Ethernet interface being used to get to the outside world. Memory's perhaps going to be a problem though - I think a couple of our earlier machines are running rather short on RAM (and of course they're proprietary modules) - 10.4's the only OS release we have, which might not run on a memory-starved machine... cheers Jules From fryers at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 07:50:53 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:50:53 +0100 Subject: Apollo stuff In-Reply-To: <1121257266.25310.20.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1121253672.25329.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <1121257266.25310.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: All, On 7/13/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 12:37 +0100, Simon Fryer wrote: > > Most of the Apollo range happily talk to a serial console so a > > screen/keyboard isn't really necessary. However in my not so humble > > opinion, I am yet to see anything that is anywhere near as nice as the > > GUI. . > > Agreed! I haven't tested all our earlier Apollos yet anyway, so it's > possible that one might be beyond repair and so become a spare machine - > freeing up a keyboard (I've not tried an early-style Domain keyboard on > a later 4xx machine yet though; electrically they're compatible but I > don't know if the protocol's the same) I seem to get the impression that the protocol is the same but I don't have any reference or experience to confirm this. > > From memory, they also boot happily across Ethernet. Although, 12Mb/s > > Token ring is far nicer then 10Mb/s CSMA/CD. > > I've got a feeling that the earlier 3000-era machines don't have > Ethernet as standard anyway (although a card could be added, but I have > no idea what boards the OS would recognise). The 3K, 4K and 5K didn't have Ethernet as standard. Ethernet seemed to become a more common option in the later machines. There was only one board that the Apollos recognised - an early 16 bit 3 Com card. Finding the card is only part of the problem. Apollo had a custom boot ROM on the card to enable network booting. > Using the ATR would seem > like the way to go to make a little domain, with one of the later 4xx > machines that also has an Ethernet interface being used to get to the > outside world. This was quite a common setup. > Memory's perhaps going to be a problem though - I think a couple of our > earlier machines are running rather short on RAM (and of course they're > proprietary modules) - 10.4's the only OS release we have, which might > not run on a memory-starved machine... I think there was a minor release after 10.4. There is also a set of patches for the November 1997 feature. For the reference of the November 97 feature. DomainOS calculates the time from a 1/4 second count, with 0 at 1 Jan 1980. The count is cast as an unsigned integer. The Pascal implementation was incorrect and treated unsigned integers as signed integers. Novermber 1997 (from memory) is the time the MSB is set. There are a couple of small parts of the OS that rely on libraries written in Pascal - which I am lead to believe have some interesting results. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jul 13 08:30:14 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:30:14 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 References: <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> <42D3E9C2.3000306@srv.net> <20050712211413.31a18589.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <17109.5990.77306.87956@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Scott" == Scott Stevens writes: Scott> I've never powered up anything bigger than a quad pentium-pro Scott> server on the 'knob and tube' (what you described) wiring in Scott> my house. I do aim to sometime not to far off start messing Scott> with the SparcServer 1000. But wouldn't you need three phase Scott> power and/or 220 volt service for most 'real' mainframes? (I Scott> have three phase outputs on my Homelite Gasoline generator) Three phase, on a Homelite? Are you sure? Mid size generators often have twist lock outlets -- not for three phase, but for 220 at 30+ amps with neutral and ground. My Honda has that. The pin configuration on the outlet will tell you what it is, or the manual... Yes, "real" mainframes typically need three phase. You can make it from one phase, either with a rotary converter (basically a 3 phase motor that synthesizes the missing phase from one phase power) or a solid state converter. Either is commonly used by metalshop people who need to power 3 phase lathes and such. And of course you need a fat enough service coming into the house; a knob & tube wired house may well have 60 amp, or maybe even 30 amp, service, and that certainly won't feed the KL10 in the barn. Some especially real mainframes want 3 phase 400 Hz power -- CDC in particular. If you have their motor generators that's taken care of; if not, then most solid state converters ("motor speed control") will be able to produce that. paul From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jul 13 08:38:57 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:38:57 -0400 Subject: Altair 680B Toggle Switch Style? In-Reply-To: <20050712134803.GA31002@outpost.timeguy.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050713093857.00a2aea0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Bill, I don't know about the 680B but on the 8800s the first ones came with round handle switches. They (MITS) switched over to the flat handled switches with the 8800As but I had a late 8800 (the last one produced AFIK) and it also had the flat handled switches. I don't know if any other 8800s have been found with the flat handled switches or not. But I STRONGLY suspect that MITS was using nothing but flat handled switches even BEFORE the 680 went into production. Steve Gabaly was tracking the Altair SNs and features and he would be the one that could definitively answer your question. Also rattle Mike Haas's cage, he has three 680s and should be able to help. I've been told that MITs switched to the flat handled switches because the round ones got PAINFUL when toggling in long programs. Joe At 08:48 AM 7/12/05 -0500, you wrote: >I tried to post this once before, but I never saw that it showed up, so here goes again... I'm trying to build a replica of a 680B using a real 680B case from eBay, authentic switches and LEDs, and a power supply and CPU board of my own design. I've seen both flat- and round-handled toggles in pictures on the web and my old issues of Byte magazine, and have been unable to discern a pattern to it. Can anyone on the list tell me why the difference, and which one is more accurate to use? Thanks. > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 09:43:37 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:43:37 -0500 Subject: 11/45 progress & questions In-Reply-To: <00ba01c5874c$59235840$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00ba01c5874c$59235840$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On 7/12/05, Jay West wrote: > The DL11 controller has a crystal that does odd baud rates, the only usable > one by any of my terminals is 110 baud (I think the crystal in it is like > 408.xxxx or somesuch. I read in the docs that you can use a different > crystal and get more "common" (and higher) baud rates. The docs tell me what > speed crystal to get - but is this crystal something I can just order from > jameco/digikey/whoever and plug it in? The docs sound like it is only a > crystal swap required. Correct? The crystal swap for the KL8E would be a 5.0688MHz... might that be it? In any case, AFAIK, besides a crystal swap, the only think you might check is how many stop bits it's strapped for. With 110 bps, it might be set up to work with an ASR-33 which wants 2. Terminals, being non-mechanical, are happy with 2 or 1. -ethan From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed Jul 13 09:44:30 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:44:30 -0400 Subject: Cray's? Message-ID: <1121265870.24156.1.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Anyone want a cray.. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5215815875 Not entirely certain the auction is legit.. almost seems "too good".. (no association, etc.. buddy of mine found the auction.) David From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 12 21:30:01 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: <42D43439.4F5077DF@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20050713023001.43672.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> older monitors were not meant to be left on w/o a video signal driving it is my understanding. I used to have an Ikegami 19" fixed frequency workstation monitor that went kaput possibly due to this reason. But it was of a later vintage...might have just been due to crap out. --- jim stephens wrote: > originally the IBM division that did terminals owned > the PC and that > may have had something to do with it. It was later > during a squabble > over it's impact on system sales that it finally > broke loosed into a separate > division. > > It could have had to do with UL approvals as well, > though I have no > basis to prove that. > > Jim > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Its my understanding (but I've only seen it as a > rumor, not as hard > > > technical fact) that the reason the original IBM > Monitors plug into the > > > PC Power Supply and not directly into an outlet > is that they were > > > vulnerable to damage (probably the same > horizontal drive problem) if > > > left powered on independent of the PC. > > > > I've heard that rumour too, but I can't understand > why, after looking at > > the schematics. The horizontal drive is > transformer-coupled, so it > > doesn't matter if the input gets stuck high or > low, it still won't turn > > on the output transsitor. > > ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 02:06:06 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sam's Photofact question Message-ID: <20050713070606.15243.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Years ago I obtained from a library an edition based on a Mitusbishi floppy drive, model number I believe was 4151 but I'm not positive. Can anyone clarify this for me, a search proved fruitless. Does anyone have this manual? It's of interest because my Tandy 2000 uses Mitusbishi 4153 drives, and doubtless there's similarities. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jul 13 04:12:43 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:12:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: What about TSX+ ? was Re: Where can I get DECmail-11? In-Reply-To: <200507121610.50764.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <28453.195.212.29.83.1121161644.squirrel@195.212.29.83> <200507121610.50764.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <38231.195.212.29.83.1121245963.squirrel@195.212.29.83> Lyle wrote: > I contacted S&H ("Harry Sanders" ) in April, 2004 and > asked if I could have a copy of the "final" version of TSX-Plus to "play > with" as a collector on a real PDP-11. We had a great conversation - and > he > emailed me a "master" ZIP file containing: Oooh - I'd like a copy of that too, please. Any idea what version it is? Gordon. From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Wed Jul 13 09:52:59 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:52:59 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <001301c58737$135229f0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <200507131502.j6DF22ln059522@keith.ezwind.net> I would be interested in anything about Apollo Token Ring. I have an Apollo system with no docs. Let me look for it to see what it is before you chuck that stuff. TIA, Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE Coach - ICPC Programming Team University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Shannon > Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 6:12 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER > SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 > > I've got scads of Apollo hardware and documentation. > > Most of it needs a new home, but there has been little > interest so far. > ... From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jul 13 10:16:12 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:16:12 -0500 Subject: Cray's? In-Reply-To: <1121265870.24156.1.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <1121265870.24156.1.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <200507131016.12961.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 13 July 2005 09:44, David Holland wrote: > Anyone want a cray.. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5215815875 > > Not entirely certain the auction is legit.. almost seems "too good".. It's been relisted at least a dozen times now, it was started somewhere around $300k-$500k the first time, and has gotten progressively cheaper each time. Aparently, the seller doesn't realize that people that'd pay that much for the machine (well, assuming they exist) probably wouldn't be buying it off of ebay. Anyways, I doubt a collector would pay more than about 1/4-1/3 of what the listing price, if they had excessive amounts of money laying around. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From kth at srv.net Wed Jul 13 10:34:58 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:34:58 -0600 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20050712143040.032748f8@mail.n.ml.org> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050712201704.030d69e0@pop.xs4all.nl> <6.2.3.4.2.20050712143040.032748f8@mail.n.ml.org> Message-ID: <42D534A2.9030105@srv.net> John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > diagnostic breakout box for mr. t's pocket *****/vibrator? "i pity the > tool" ??? > just kidding. no clue, looks like a breakout diag box for some soft of > comm cable with possibly a C64 or even an older altair unit. > -John Boffemmyer IV Doesn't look like there are enough wires being used from the external connector to match the number of lights, so it isn't a simple breakout box. Looks more like some kind of VU display. > > At 02:17 PM 7/12/2005, you wrote: > >> Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? >> http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ >> >> Stefan. > From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 13 11:11:21 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:11:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cray's? Message-ID: <20050713161121.37373.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >> Anyone want a cray.. >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5215815875 >> Not entirely certain the auction is legit.. almost seems "too good".. > It's been relisted at least a dozen times now, it was started > somewhere around $300k-$500k the first time, and has gotten > progressively cheaper each time. I remember the first 'Buy it now' price was $375,000 with an opening price of $250,000. It's a lot cheaper now but it's missing the on-site install by Cray and the site license for the software. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Jul 13 11:54:05 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:54:05 -0700 Subject: Apollo stuff In-Reply-To: <200507130700.j6D70R6m038234@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507130700.j6D70R6m038234@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <9dfd5012746658963023219ae93afe58@valleyimplants.com> The keyboard on my 425 is a beige, model # 007121 by Apollo, working just fine. Not sure if this is "new" or "old", but it definitely predates the machine (has a D-9 to DIN cable, so later than the modular jack kbds) Where's Bob's stuff at? It would be really nice to get the docs to Al, I'd be willing to try to talk to HP to see if any software (tape images) can be made available publicly. Don't know if I can keep much equipment, though. 10.4.1 is very desireable, it improves SCSI support. I'm trying to cobble together a diff for SAU11/(10.4-10.4.1) from 2 disk images I have. Patches (including the y19.97k bug) are available from HP http://www1.itrc.hp.com/service/patch/wrap.do? pageKey=patch.jsp.archiveJump -Scott Quinn From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jul 13 12:18:46 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cray's? Message-ID: <200507131718.KAA28377@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "lee davison" > >>> Anyone want a cray.. > >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5215815875 > >>> Not entirely certain the auction is legit.. almost seems "too >good".. > >> It's been relisted at least a dozen times now, it was started >> somewhere around $300k-$500k the first time, and has gotten >> progressively cheaper each time. > >I remember the first 'Buy it now' price was $375,000 with an opening >price of $250,000. > >It's a lot cheaper now but it's missing the on-site install by Cray >and the site license for the software. > >Lee. Hi There is nothing particularly significant or historic about this particular machine. It is too bad that it will most likely end up being sold for scrap. A museum may want to buy it but it is generally like many current PC's. It is too new to be of particular interest and is too obsolete to be particularly useful. A school might find it useful. I'd like to have the machine but I tend to like to collect useable machines. It would just be floor space to me. Surely a conversation piece but that is about all. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 13 13:47:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer available in Ft. Lauderdale, FL Message-ID: See below. Contact original sender. Reply-to: AKerney at hillyork.com -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:09:09 -0700 From: Amanda Kerney Subject: Re: IBM Portable Personal Computer >We have an IBm Portable Personal Computer model 5155 From about 16 >to 20 years ago. It is fairly unique, in that it was one of the >original "portable" (before Labtops) computers. It has been sitting >in our closet for about 2 years and it is just collecting dust. >Would you please accept this donation because I feel that this >working computer doesn't do any one good by taking up space in our >closet and someone could actually take use to it. We are even >willing to ship it to you with no cost. Please accept this donation! >Thank you. > >Sincerely, > >Amanda Kerney > >P.S. You can reach me by >email akerney at hillyork.com or >swetee1115 at yahoo.com. You can also >reach me at my place of business at 954-525-4200 ext 307. From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Jul 13 14:18:01 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:18:01 +0100 Subject: Teleprint 390 References: <200507122304.QAA27881@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <002801c587df$962fd0e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 12:04 AM Subject: Re: Teleprint 390 > >From: "Stefan" > > > >I just hooked up my Teleprint 390 to my laptop and it works like a > >charm, almost 100%. I can type on my laptop and the output appears on > >both the papertape as typed. And what I type on the Teleprint appears > >on my laptop but what it doesn't do is when I feed it a papertape > >output it on the laptop (only parts). It does output it correctly on > >the Teleprint itself. Any idea's what might be wrong here ? > >I am not a real technical person but willing to give anything a try :-) > > > >Stefan. > > > > Hi > Some computers are especially slow at doing a linefeed to > the screen. I'd think it could keep up with 110 Baud though. > Most teletypes have some way for a signal from the computer > to throttle the paper tape read ( as I recall ). You might > look at connecting some handshake. > You didn't state if it was making mistakes from the first > character or if it read several right and then lost it. > If it read some right, how long does it go before it > makes mistakes? Any line feeds involved? > Dwight > > My 11/45 has a seperate "Paper Tape Advance" output on the console serial interface, whic is set by writing to a register - I assume that the Teleprint 390 / ASR33 has either a solenoid drive or a clutch that allows the tape to advance one character at a time, under processor control. Jim. From florit at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 14:17:53 2005 From: florit at gmail.com (Louis Florit) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:17:53 -0400 Subject: Commodore sx-64 keyboard cleaning Message-ID: <46e70d050507131217642f65d9@mail.gmail.com> Hi, continuing the saga of the no worky sx-64 keyboard, I found these instructions. I will be reseating the chips in the sx-64 and following these steps- hopefully the bladder won't be ruined in the process. From http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm/keyboard.txt --------- THE SX KEYBOARD: DISASSEMBLY AND CLEANING (from the SX64 article) This keyboard is completely different than previous CBM designs. Therefore, some of the previous information in this article will not apply. You need to know how this one works to be able to safely take it apart for cleaning. The main component is a conductive rubber bladder separated from the PC board underneath by a white or grey plastic sheet with holes in it. The plastic sheet is an insulator. Until a key is pressed, the insulator holds the bladder away from the PC board contact points. If the insulator gets damaged or distorted, some keys will not work or may make contact all the time. Removing the bladder from the PC board requires great care. The insulator tends to stick to the board near each contact point. If pulled away quickly, it will most certainly be torn. I use a dental pick to slowly nudge the tiny areas that stick as I gently pull the bladder off the board. The last one took me about 10 minutes to remove. That work cannot be rushed. Some areas of the elastic insulator deform as they pull loose and must be pushed back into place before reassembly. The keyboard comes apart for cleaning by pressing in on the four plastic snaps on the front edge while separating front and rear panels with fingers. The two center ones are easy... just press in and up on the brown plastic top panel and it will bend upward. The two side snaps need a bit of pressure... use a small flat tool like a screwdriver blade inserted into the slots to make them release. With the top off, the keyboard is visible as several rows of keys over a conductive rubber bladder, which in turn is mounted over a PC board. Each key plunger assembly can be removed for cleaning if one or more are sticky from a spill. They would -all- have to be removed to gain access to the PC board under the bladder. None of the keyboard parts are interchangeable with a C64. Note that the shift-lock key is not a latching switch as in a C64 or C128, but a momentary contact pushbutton like all the rest. A circuit in the SX forms the "latching" device and an LED on the keyboard key comes on when ShiftLock is on. The following is a report from a fellow user who sucessfully cleaned his SX keyboard: "I am pleased to report complete success with my efforts to clean the key pads on my SX64 and the keyboard is working like new again. Although not a terribly difficult operation, care must be taken. After removing the upper keyboard case half I removed the five screws along the front of the circuit board that holds it in place. I then removed the two screws holding the keyboard cable connector in place. At this point I removed the keyboard from the lower case half and removed the keys one at a time by pressing the two tabs together from the back side of the circuit board that hold the key assembly in place. I didn't bother to keep the keys in order as I would use a C64 keyboard as a guide when replacing the keys. I then removed the two tiny screws that hold a small strip of metal to the black rubber like bladder on the right side. At this point I was ready to lift the bladder from the circuit board. Under the bladder is a grayish colored membrane that is somewhat fragile and care must be taken not to tear it. On several occasions this membrane stuck to the circuit board as I attempted to lift the membrane from the circuit board. I used the tip of a very small thin flat screwdriver to ease the membrane off the circuit board when it would stick. Once the membrane was removed I cleaned all contact pads on the circuit board using cotton swabs (Q-tips) and alcohol. I also cleaned the contact areas on the bladder in the same manner using VERY LIGHT pressure. I replaced the membrane onto the board and attached the metal strip with it's two tiny screws. I attached the cable connector and mounted the board in the lower case half with the five screws. Take care not to over tighten the screw that goes through the bladder to avoid damage. After the board was secure in the case half, I replaced the keys. They simply press into place. The space bar will require a little care to line up all three connectors. Replace the upper case half and that's it. Not that difficult but very time consuming and it does not pay to hurry. While the key assemblies are off the keyboard it is a good time to clean the keys themselves and to blow any dust or debris from the underside of the key. If you find this information useful please feel free to pass it along to others." Charles Houck All I have to add to what Charles has said is some cautions when cleaning the contact points. Never use anything abrasive on the bladder. The black dots are the contacts. They are just a conductive coating on plastic, so rough treatment can easily destroy the bladder beyond repair. A -light- rub with a dry Q-tip is all that is needed on each black spot. For the copper keyboard contacts, I use a #2 pencil eraser to remove oxidation from each contact point, then rub each with a dry Q-tip to "polish" the surface. The resulting contacts should be shiny with no spots or blemishes. I don't use solvents unless the board and/or bladder is contaminated because of a liquid spill. -- From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jul 13 14:30:30 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:30:30 -0400 Subject: Teleprint 390 References: <200507122304.QAA27881@clulw009.amd.com> <002801c587df$962fd0e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <17109.27606.169881.434978@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Beacon writes: Jim> My 11/45 has a seperate "Paper Tape Advance" output on the Jim> console serial interface, whic is set by writing to a register - Jim> I assume that the Teleprint 390 / ASR33 has either a solenoid Jim> drive or a clutch that allows the tape to advance one character Jim> at a time, under processor control. Bit 0 in the receive control register, right? That's supposed to be the papertape reader "reader run" signal. It isn't used as a one character at a time thing; it is read/write and if set remains set until explicitly cleared. The idea is that the system would accept interactive input by leaving this bit clear, but then when you told it to read a papertape it would set the bit. That starts the tape. The program would then see characters streaming in. At some point (perhaps when it sees a string of nulls, or when it knows the tape is finished by some internal coding) it would clear reader run again. I don't know if this actually was used much. The ASR33s I remember rarely if ever had this hooked up; the reader run control was done by flipping the papertape reader switch on the machine. I tried to find some code for it, but RSTS dropped the code in V9.6 and that's the oldest I have... paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 13 14:38:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:38:11 +0000 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer available in Ft. Lauderdale, FL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121283491.25329.92.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 11:47 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > See below. Contact original sender. > > Reply-to: AKerney at hillyork.com > We have an IBm Portable Personal Computer model 5155 From about 16 >to 20 years ago Interesting. I received that exact email direct from the sender yesterday (I was going to pass it to the list once I was sure our group didn't want it, although I'm 99.9% certain we don't :-) The shipping aspect is interesting though - I'd assumed they were at least in the UK but the email gave no indication of whereabouts except for the phone number being rather odd for this country. I'm surprised anyone would be prepared to ship such a machine across the pond to us at their expense (particularly as presumably it'd need modification to the PSU to work here, would likely have a different keyboard layout etc.) Makes it all sound a little dodgy now, actually! cheers Jules From news at computercollector.com Wed Jul 13 14:37:42 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:37:42 -0400 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer available in Ft. Lauderdale, FL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507131946.j6DJkDhO064124@keith.ezwind.net> A good tip. This will be right at home in our new local museum. :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 2:47 PM To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: Re: IBM Portable Personal Computer available in Ft. Lauderdale, FL See below. Contact original sender. Reply-to: AKerney at hillyork.com -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:09:09 -0700 From: Amanda Kerney Subject: Re: IBM Portable Personal Computer >We have an IBm Portable Personal Computer model 5155 From about 16 to >20 years ago. It is fairly unique, in that it was one of the original >"portable" (before Labtops) computers. It has been sitting in our >closet for about 2 years and it is just collecting dust. >Would you please accept this donation because I feel that this working >computer doesn't do any one good by taking up space in our closet and >someone could actually take use to it. We are even willing to ship it >to you with no cost. Please accept this donation! >Thank you. > >Sincerely, > >Amanda Kerney > >P.S. You can reach me by >email akerney at hillyork.com or >swetee1115 at yahoo.com. You can also reach >me at my place of business at 954-525-4200 ext 307. From news at computercollector.com Wed Jul 13 14:43:53 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:43:53 -0400 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer available in Ft. Lauderdale, FL In-Reply-To: <1121283491.25329.92.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200507131952.j6DJqXnr064187@keith.ezwind.net> She said she's in Florida. Rest assured, Jules, I accepted this for our local museum, not for my personal collection. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:38 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: IBM Portable Personal Computer available in Ft. Lauderdale, FL On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 11:47 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > See below. Contact original sender. > > Reply-to: AKerney at hillyork.com > We have an IBm Portable Personal Computer model 5155 From about 16 to >20 years ago Interesting. I received that exact email direct from the sender yesterday (I was going to pass it to the list once I was sure our group didn't want it, although I'm 99.9% certain we don't :-) The shipping aspect is interesting though - I'd assumed they were at least in the UK but the email gave no indication of whereabouts except for the phone number being rather odd for this country. I'm surprised anyone would be prepared to ship such a machine across the pond to us at their expense (particularly as presumably it'd need modification to the PSU to work here, would likely have a different keyboard layout etc.) Makes it all sound a little dodgy now, actually! cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jul 13 14:54:01 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:54:01 -0400 Subject: 11/45 progress & questions References: <00ba01c5874c$59235840$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <17109.29017.812508.524156@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jay" == Jay West writes: Jay> The DL11 controller has a crystal that does odd baud rates, the Jay> only usable one by any of my terminals is 110 baud (I think the Jay> crystal in it is like 408.xxxx or somesuch. I read in the docs Jay> that you can use a different crystal and get more "common" (and Jay> higher) baud rates. The docs tell me what speed crystal to get - Jay> but is this crystal something I can just order from Jay> jameco/digikey/whoever and plug it in? The docs sound like it is Jay> only a crystal swap required. Correct? Sounds right. I couldn't find the doc you mentioned -- the ones I checked on bitsavers don't show the frequencies, but they do show that you get your choice of four "speed groups" according to the crystal you pick. Anyway, Jameco or Digikey may work, if the frequency you need happens to be a stock one. If not, contact a crystal manufacturer. In years past, I've ordered crystals for a custom frequency, quantity one, completely painlessly from International Crystal. It seems odd, but they have no trouble with custom orders for just a single part. paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 13 15:02:02 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:02:02 +0000 Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer available in Ft. Lauderdale, FL In-Reply-To: <200507131952.j6DJqXnr064187@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507131952.j6DJqXnr064187@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1121284922.25329.103.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 15:43 -0400, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > She said she's in Florida. Rest assured, Jules, I accepted this for our > local museum, not for my personal collection. No worries - just glad it'll find a home! cheers Jules From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed Jul 13 15:00:22 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:00:22 -0400 Subject: Panasonic HHC info? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050712132430.03a0eec8@mail.30below.com> References: <200506011255.FAA20886@floodgap.com> <200506011255.FAA20886@floodgap.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050712132430.03a0eec8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <29AC55E9-BED0-4D05-8923-247D52A3F5CB@xlisper.mv.com> Well, I have my HHC working pretty much. I replaced the batteries but that didn't really help the "insufficient memory" errors. I'm wondering if it is necessary to expand the memory to use the Basic ROM. Does anyone have a copy of the HHC documentation or any information on programming it either in Basic or SNAP? Thanks, David On Jul 12, 2005, at 1:46 PM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that David Betz may have mentioned these words: > >> I finally received my HHC Basic ROMs yesterday and they seem to work. >> (Thanks Roger!) >> > > I *think* (and with the minimal remaining number of functional > neutrons in my head, that's a toughie! :-O ) I have everyone caught > up on the HHC Basics. To those people who were severely delayed on > receiving their chips, I publicly apologize -- It was never my > intention to let this project go "lax" like it did. > > If I did forget you, please raise your hands! Then lower them > again, and type out an email to me, and I'll get you taken care of. > I currently have a couple of days of "minimal insanity" with which > I can clean up any last loose ends. > > >> I do have a problem where it claims I have insufficient memory to >> save even the smallest program. I seem to remember hearing someone >> else complain of that problem as well but I never saw anyone post a >> solution. >> > > That would've been me; I may have an idea to the cause, but I've > not had a chance to try it. See below. > > >> Has anyone been able to save programs? Is there some trick >> involved? This is the first time I've used the machine and I suppose >> there could be left over stuff in RAM that needs to be deleted. >> > > I found that I could get 1 program entered and running, by manually > deleting everything I could find in the 'filesystem' and > immediately going to the Basic and setting it to program input > mode. [[ This is the first time I'd used the machine as well... ]] > > However, there was other 'flakeyness' with my HHC as well, and so I > don't think it's a 'Basic-only' problem. > > >> I would think it would have disappeared long ago though since the >> batteries were dead when I bought the machine and I am only able to >> run it off of the power supply. Has anyone had success saving >> programs? >> > > I *think* (and knowing near nothing about this machine, I really, > really stress *think*) that the batteries _need_ to be functional. > A lot of portable machines of this era used the batteries as an > oversized 'smoothing capacitor' for lack of a better term and would > not operate correctly without a working battery pack. (I have a > Tandy 600 which exhibited similar memory wackyness when running it > from AC only with no battery pack installed.) > > I have not had time to test this theory, however, so I might be > 'full of condensed milk' as my father-in-law used to say. > > >> Also, my machine has a menu entry offering to run SNAP programs but I >> have been unable to find a description of the SNAP language. I >> believe it is a Forth derivative. Can someone point me to a >> description of the SNAP language? >> > > Wish I could; SNAP sounded kewl. What I can tell you is the machine > uses a CMOS 6502, so if anyone can find a way to read the internal > ROMS or figure out the BASIC enough to program a ROM dump utility, > should be pretty easy for one who's good with 6502 disassemblers to > maybe glean some knowledge about it. (M'self, I'm more a 6809 kinda > guy...) > > As I have some really good soldering/desoldering tools now, I could > take a stab at desoldering the ROM chip[s] and reading 'em > directly... tho: > > 1) I wouldn't know where in memory it resides without manually > tracing address lines & whatnot (which I don't have time for) ... > or ... > > 2) I wouldn't have time to do this for at least a couple of months. > But hey, we've been waiting almost 10 years now for Basic, right??? > ;^P > > HTH, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." > SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein > zmerch at 30below.com | > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jul 13 15:13:46 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:13:46 -0500 Subject: 11/45 progress & questions References: <00ba01c5874c$59235840$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <17109.29017.812508.524156@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <002a01c587e7$63856990$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Paul wrote.... > Sounds right. I couldn't find the doc you mentioned -- the ones I > checked on bitsavers don't show the frequencies, but they do show that > you get your choice of four "speed groups" according to the crystal > you pick. That chart should have the frequencies at the top over each speed group. I think it was the DL11-A,B,C,D printset I was looking at that listed the frequencies. > Anyway, Jameco or Digikey may work, if the frequency you need happens > to be a stock one. If not, contact a crystal manufacturer. In years > past, I've ordered crystals for a custom frequency, quantity one, > completely painlessly from International Crystal. It seems odd, but > they have no trouble with custom orders for just a single part. Yeah, I tried Jan Crystals, they said they couldn't sell me a new crystal unless I knew something called the "load factor" of the existing crystal. That tidbit I don't see in the documentation. They also wanted $20 each, and that seemed a bit steep. At some point in the future I'd like to upgrade the crystals on both my M7800's. However, in the mean time I have found a M7856 which makes for a much more usable console speed :) Jay From news at computercollector.com Wed Jul 13 15:20:23 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:20:23 -0400 Subject: Panasonic HHC info? In-Reply-To: <29AC55E9-BED0-4D05-8923-247D52A3F5CB@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <200507132028.j6DKSiWT064688@keith.ezwind.net> I have the main HHC instruction manual. Will scan it once I find it (which could take a few days!). -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Betz Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 4:00 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Panasonic HHC info? Well, I have my HHC working pretty much. I replaced the batteries but that didn't really help the "insufficient memory" errors. I'm wondering if it is necessary to expand the memory to use the Basic ROM. Does anyone have a copy of the HHC documentation or any information on programming it either in Basic or SNAP? Thanks, David On Jul 12, 2005, at 1:46 PM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that David Betz may have mentioned these words: > >> I finally received my HHC Basic ROMs yesterday and they seem to work. >> (Thanks Roger!) >> > > I *think* (and with the minimal remaining number of functional > neutrons in my head, that's a toughie! :-O ) I have everyone caught up > on the HHC Basics. To those people who were severely delayed on > receiving their chips, I publicly apologize -- It was never my > intention to let this project go "lax" like it did. > > If I did forget you, please raise your hands! Then lower them again, > and type out an email to me, and I'll get you taken care of. > I currently have a couple of days of "minimal insanity" with which I > can clean up any last loose ends. > > >> I do have a problem where it claims I have insufficient memory to >> save even the smallest program. I seem to remember hearing someone >> else complain of that problem as well but I never saw anyone post a >> solution. >> > > That would've been me; I may have an idea to the cause, but I've not > had a chance to try it. See below. > > >> Has anyone been able to save programs? Is there some trick involved? >> This is the first time I've used the machine and I suppose there >> could be left over stuff in RAM that needs to be deleted. >> > > I found that I could get 1 program entered and running, by manually > deleting everything I could find in the 'filesystem' and immediately > going to the Basic and setting it to program input mode. [[ This is > the first time I'd used the machine as well... ]] > > However, there was other 'flakeyness' with my HHC as well, and so I > don't think it's a 'Basic-only' problem. > > >> I would think it would have disappeared long ago though since the >> batteries were dead when I bought the machine and I am only able to >> run it off of the power supply. Has anyone had success saving >> programs? >> > > I *think* (and knowing near nothing about this machine, I really, > really stress *think*) that the batteries _need_ to be functional. > A lot of portable machines of this era used the batteries as an > oversized 'smoothing capacitor' for lack of a better term and would > not operate correctly without a working battery pack. (I have a Tandy > 600 which exhibited similar memory wackyness when running it from AC > only with no battery pack installed.) > > I have not had time to test this theory, however, so I might be 'full > of condensed milk' as my father-in-law used to say. > > >> Also, my machine has a menu entry offering to run SNAP programs but I >> have been unable to find a description of the SNAP language. I >> believe it is a Forth derivative. Can someone point me to a >> description of the SNAP language? >> > > Wish I could; SNAP sounded kewl. What I can tell you is the machine > uses a CMOS 6502, so if anyone can find a way to read the internal > ROMS or figure out the BASIC enough to program a ROM dump utility, > should be pretty easy for one who's good with 6502 disassemblers to > maybe glean some knowledge about it. (M'self, I'm more a 6809 kinda > guy...) > > As I have some really good soldering/desoldering tools now, I could > take a stab at desoldering the ROM chip[s] and reading 'em directly... > tho: > > 1) I wouldn't know where in memory it resides without manually tracing > address lines & whatnot (which I don't have time for) ... > or ... > > 2) I wouldn't have time to do this for at least a couple of months. > But hey, we've been waiting almost 10 years now for Basic, right??? > ;^P > > HTH, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." > SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein > zmerch at 30below.com | > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Jul 13 15:37:55 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:37:55 -0700 Subject: What about TSX+ ? was Re: Where can I get DECmail-11? In-Reply-To: <38231.195.212.29.83.1121245963.squirrel@195.212.29.83> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <200507121610.50764.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <38231.195.212.29.83.1121245963.squirrel@195.212.29.83> Message-ID: <200507131337.56175.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 13 July 2005 02:12, gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: > Oooh - I'd like a copy of that too, please. Any idea what version it is? > > Gordon. Version 6.5 Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 13 16:35:31 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer available in Ft. Lauderdale, FL In-Reply-To: <1121283491.25329.92.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > The shipping aspect is interesting though - I'd assumed they were at > least in the UK but the email gave no indication of whereabouts except > for the phone number being rather odd for this country. I immediately recognized the number as being in the US with a Florida area code. > I'm surprised anyone would be prepared to ship such a machine across the > pond to us at their expense (particularly as presumably it'd need > modification to the PSU to work here, would likely have a different > keyboard layout etc.) They probably didn't realize they were sending the message to a museum in the UK. A lot of times people just find all the computer museums (real or otherwise) they can find on the web and send out a blanket offer. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 13 16:44:51 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:44:51 -0700 Subject: Computer Library/Select on VCM Message-ID: <42D58B53.50D8230C@rain.org> I just posted some extra copies of the Computer Library and Computer Select CDs on VCM. They use the Lotus Bluefish search software, and are relatively easy to search ... if you know how to do online searches :). http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/ From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Wed Jul 13 17:23:12 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:23:12 +0200 Subject: DataViews 8.0 for VMS Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050714001732.02d61298@pop.xs4all.nl> Hello, Another box dug up from the pile ;-) This time its DataViews 8.0 for VMS 5.3. Seems to have been hardly used and includes the installation TK50 tape complete with manuals. I am not sure what kind of software this precisely is, but it seems to be something like "a Real-Time Graphical User Interface and Data Visualization Tool" (that came from the net somewhere). Anyway, its up for sale or swap, if interested just simply make me an offer. Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Jul 13 17:16:32 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:16:32 +0100 Subject: Teleprint 390 References: <200507122304.QAA27881@clulw009.amd.com><002801c587df$962fd0e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <17109.27606.169881.434978@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <00c001c587f8$8673c3a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 8:30 PM Subject: Re: Teleprint 390 > >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Beacon writes: > > Jim> My 11/45 has a seperate "Paper Tape Advance" output on the > Jim> console serial interface, whic is set by writing to a register - > Jim> I assume that the Teleprint 390 / ASR33 has either a solenoid > Jim> drive or a clutch that allows the tape to advance one character > Jim> at a time, under processor control. > > Bit 0 in the receive control register, right? That's supposed to be > the papertape reader "reader run" signal. It isn't used as a one > character at a time thing; it is read/write and if set remains set > until explicitly cleared. > > The idea is that the system would accept interactive input by leaving > this bit clear, but then when you told it to read a papertape it would > set the bit. That starts the tape. The program would then see > characters streaming in. At some point (perhaps when it sees a string > of nulls, or when it knows the tape is finished by some internal > coding) it would clear reader run again. > > I don't know if this actually was used much. The ASR33s I remember > rarely if ever had this hooked up; the reader run control was done by > flipping the papertape reader switch on the machine. > > I tried to find some code for it, but RSTS dropped the code in V9.6 > and that's the oldest I have... > > paul > Paul, thanks for clearing that up - I guess I mis-read the manual. Jim From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Jul 13 17:24:36 2005 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:24:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Apollo stuff In-Reply-To: <200507131557.j6DFvqPM061717@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200507132224.RAA28071@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Well, if my memory is working properly, THIS is an Apollo domain wall box connector. Hey, you didnt say you wanted a pretty picture. In fact all the dirt on the wall is going to be cleaned up and repainted sometime in the next month... http://www-users.itlabs.umn.edu/~lemay/PANA0021.JPG http://www-users.itlabs.umn.edu/~lemay/PANA0022.JPG http://www-users.itlabs.umn.edu/~lemay/PANA0023.JPG -Larry LeMay University of Minnesota > I would love to see pictures of the ends of the ATR cable. I have some ATR > cards and we will be putting one on display soon but I have never seen a > cable or the wall box. > > In later versions of IBM token ring the wall mounted box (MAU) did do > something, but in original IBM TR it was strictly passive. It had some > switches to take devices out of the ring manually, but no electronics. Since > ATR was earlier than that I doubt that the wall box had any active function. > > > Gil > > A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director > The Museum at CSE > University of Texas at Arlington > Department of Computer Science & Engineering > Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street > Arlington, TX 76019 > 817-272-3620 > http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 6:21 AM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Apollo stuff > > > > On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 18:16 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Bob said: > > > > > ... > > > Question for Apollo fans - when setting up an Apollo token > > ring, is it really as simple as just chaining the machines > > together in a loop? I seem to remember the manuals (the few > > that we do have) mentioning plugging in to wall-mounted > > boxes, but it's not clear if those are just for cable routing > > or whether they actually do something more important. > > ... > > > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > > > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 13 17:41:27 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:41:27 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <200507122307.31423.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> <42D3E9C2.3000306@srv.net> <20050712211413.31a18589.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200507122307.31423.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050713174127.259f81b0.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:07:31 -0500 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Scott Stevens declared on Tuesday 12 July 2005 09:14 pm: > > On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:03:14 -0600 > > > Want to try hooking up a mainframe using that type of wiring? > > > > But wouldn't you need three phase power and/or 220 volt service > > for most 'real' mainframes? (I have three phase outputs on my > > Homelite Gasoline generator) > > Uhm, you don't have 220V service to your house? I don't think I'd > consider moving into a house that doesn't have at least 100A, 240V > service. And even then, the 100A service would get upgrade to 240V > service fairly soon after I moved in... > Of course there's 240 volt service. There wasn't a few weeks ago when a tree limb took out just one of the wires coming in, but there normally is. > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 13 17:44:02 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:44:02 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <17109.5990.77306.87956@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42D3C3FC.1000809@atarimuseum.com> <42D3E9C2.3000306@srv.net> <20050712211413.31a18589.chenmel@earthlink.net> <17109.5990.77306.87956@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050713174402.44c1b998.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:30:14 -0400 Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Scott" == Scott Stevens writes: > > Scott> I've never powered up anything bigger than a quad pentium-pro > Scott> server on the 'knob and tube' (what you described) wiring in > Scott> my house. I do aim to sometime not to far off start messing > Scott> with the SparcServer 1000. But wouldn't you need three phase > Scott> power and/or 220 volt service for most 'real' mainframes? (I > Scott> have three phase outputs on my Homelite Gasoline generator) > > Three phase, on a Homelite? Are you sure? Mid size generators often > have twist lock outlets -- not for three phase, but for 220 at 30+ > amps with neutral and ground. My Honda has that. The pin > configuration on the outlet will tell you what it is, or the manual... > It's labelled 3 phase. This is not a consumer-grade Homelite, it's a big old one bought at a farm auction. It has a metal property tag so was probably industrial or military before the previous owner bought it. From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Jul 13 18:07:06 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:07:06 -0400 Subject: Apollo stuff References: <1121253672.25329.10.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000301c587ff$97f7b210$0100a8c0@screamer> The wall boxes are totally passive. There is a cable that connects the standard token ring board to two BNC connectors, so the twist-lock wall connector is totally optional. How many keyboards do you need? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 7:21 AM Subject: Re: Apollo stuff > On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 18:16 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >> Bob said: >> >> "I've got scads of Apollo hardware and documentation. >> Most of it needs a new home, but there has been little interest so far." >> >> Well, I'm interested. Just the logistics of getting it across the >> country. > > A list of what there is would be nice to see - probably too expensive to > ship it across the pond though. > > Question for Apollo fans - when setting up an Apollo token ring, is it > really as simple as just chaining the machines together in a loop? I > seem to remember the manuals (the few that we do have) mentioning > plugging in to wall-mounted boxes, but it's not clear if those are just > for cable routing or whether they actually do something more important. > > We're still short a Domain keyboard here, and I think we only have one > of the little interface cables that connects the network cabling to the > token ring card itself - hopefully there's nothing special to those > though and we can make something up. I'd just like to know if it's vital > to find the wall boxes though! :-) > > cheers > > Jules > > From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Jul 13 18:09:45 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:09:45 -0400 Subject: Apollo stuff References: <1121253672.25329.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <1121257266.25310.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000901c587ff$f651e6a0$0100a8c0@screamer> 10.4 does not include the SAU's for the very early machines. I think mine run SR 9.7.5, which supports the DN660 and DN330's as well as the 3xxx and 4xxx boxes. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 8:21 AM Subject: Re: Apollo stuff > On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 12:37 +0100, Simon Fryer wrote: >> The wall boxes are just fancy make before break connection boxes. The >> ring works fine without them. > > That's good to hear :) > >> > We're still short a Domain keyboard here, and I think we only have one >> > of the little interface cables that connects the network cabling to the >> > token ring card itself - hopefully there's nothing special to those >> > though and we can make something up. I'd just like to know if it's >> > vital >> > to find the wall boxes though! :-) >> >> Most of the Apollo range happily talk to a serial console so a >> screen/keyboard isn't really necessary. However in my not so humble >> opinion, I am yet to see anything that is anywhere near as nice as the >> GUI. . > > Agreed! I haven't tested all our earlier Apollos yet anyway, so it's > possible that one might be beyond repair and so become a spare machine - > freeing up a keyboard (I've not tried an early-style Domain keyboard on > a later 4xx machine yet though; electrically they're compatible but I > don't know if the protocol's the same) > >> From memory, they also boot happily across Ethernet. Although, 12Mb/s >> Token ring is far nicer then 10Mb/s CSMA/CD. > > I've got a feeling that the earlier 3000-era machines don't have > Ethernet as standard anyway (although a card could be added, but I have > no idea what boards the OS would recognise). Using the ATR would seem > like the way to go to make a little domain, with one of the later 4xx > machines that also has an Ethernet interface being used to get to the > outside world. > > Memory's perhaps going to be a problem though - I think a couple of our > earlier machines are running rather short on RAM (and of course they're > proprietary modules) - 10.4's the only OS release we have, which might > not run on a memory-starved machine... > > cheers > > Jules > > From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jul 13 18:10:47 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:10:47 +0100 Subject: What about TSX+ ? was Re: Where can I get DECmail-11? In-Reply-To: <200507131337.56175.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <200507121610.50764.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <38231.195.212.29.83.1121245963.squirrel@195.212.29.83> <200507131337.56175.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <42D59F77.3020404@gjcp.net> Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Wednesday 13 July 2005 02:12, gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: > > >>Oooh - I'd like a copy of that too, please. Any idea what version it is? >> >>Gordon. > > > Version 6.5 > Hmmm, I have the 6.4 disks, but no documentation (as far as I can see)... Gordon. From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Jul 13 18:12:39 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:12:39 -0400 Subject: Apollo stuff References: <200507130700.j6D70R6m038234@dewey.classiccmp.org> <9dfd5012746658963023219ae93afe58@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <001601c58800$61cdc520$0100a8c0@screamer> My Apollo's are located in central Massachusetts. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Quinn" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 12:54 PM Subject: Re: Apollo stuff > The keyboard on my 425 is a beige, model # 007121 by Apollo, working > just fine. Not sure if this is "new" or "old", but it definitely > predates the machine (has a D-9 to DIN cable, so later than the modular > jack kbds) > > Where's Bob's stuff at? It would be really nice to get the docs to Al, > I'd be willing to try to talk to HP to see if any software (tape > images) can be made available publicly. Don't know if I can keep much > equipment, though. > > 10.4.1 is very desireable, it improves SCSI support. I'm trying to > cobble together a diff for SAU11/(10.4-10.4.1) from 2 disk images I > have. Patches (including the y19.97k bug) are available from HP > http://www1.itrc.hp.com/service/patch/wrap.do? > pageKey=patch.jsp.archiveJump > > -Scott Quinn > > From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 13 18:13:48 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:13:48 -0700 Subject: Next Mouse Message-ID: <42D5A02C.289D2A06@rain.org> I ran across this mouse in some stuff and don't recognize it as going to the cubes or slabs that I have. Any idea what this might go to? http://www.rain.org/~marvin/nextmous.jpg From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 13 18:36:15 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:36:15 -0700 Subject: TSX and RT11 clones Message-ID: <42D5A56F.3030505@bitsavers.org> There was a discussion of cloning various PDP11 OSes a while back (2003) Google for "a PDP-11 question" as the subject. Someone with the handle of 'paramucho' had sources to a clone he had written. There was also someone who popped up around new years a few years ago claiming to have had one written by someone in Canada. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 17:40:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:40:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jul 13, 5 00:14:26 am Message-ID: > In general, a receiver won't care if the transmitter generates too many > start bits, but may well object to too few. ^^^^^^^ Ouch!!! As Dwight pointed out to me in private e-mail, I did of course mean STOP bits there. That's what comes of posting when you've spent the entire day trying to untangle the circuitry on the HP98780A deflection PCB... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 17:43:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:43:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Jul 12, 5 06:19:01 pm Message-ID: > > > On the classic PERQs (1, 1a, 2T1, 2T2), there are several available > OSes. > > Until these have been archived, it is best to say "there WERE several > available OSes" > > I've archived one or two versions of POS, but that's it so far. Several PERQ-fanaitcs have readable installation kits for PNX and Accent, so I think it's fair to say those still exist. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 17:49:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:49:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 progress & questions In-Reply-To: <00ba01c5874c$59235840$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jul 12, 5 08:43:53 pm Message-ID: > The DL11 controller has a crystal that does odd baud rates, the only usable > one by any of my terminals is 110 baud (I think the crystal in it is like > 408.xxxx or somesuch. I read in the docs that you can use a different IIRC the board has a divide-by-2^n circuit between the oscillator and the UART, where is determined by the (rotary) switches. Which means that one frequency of crystal will give you the standard doubling series of baud rates -- 150, 300, 600, 1200, 2400, etc. The odd frequency crystals were used for things like 110, 134.5, etc. In ganeral only one divisor setting gave a useful baud rate with those other crystals (the crystal you have presumably also gives 220, 440, etc baud, but nothing uses those rates). > crystal and get more "common" (and higher) baud rates. The docs tell me what > speed crystal to get - but is this crystal something I can just order from > jameco/digikey/whoever and plug it in? The docs sound like it is only a > crystal swap required. Correct? It is just the crystal that uou need to change. And I think the one for 300/600/1200/etc baud is a normal frequency. The problem will be getting it in a can that will plug into DEC's socket, but I think you can just solder the crystal to the tags on that socket if you have to. I beleive there are companies that will custom grind just about any frequency crystal. Radio amateurs used to know of such places to get the crystals to put PMR, etc radios onto the amateur bands. The price wasn't that high if you didn't mind waiting. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 17:52:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:52:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <20050712210937.37eb3733.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jul 12, 5 09:09:37 pm Message-ID: > I used to joke about why there's no tolerance band on 'zero ohm jumpers' > (short-circuit shunts built with the same package outline as a resistor, There a plenty of jokles about 20% 0-ohm jumoers being cheaper than 10% ones :-). I believe the actual spec for a zero ohm jumper does give a maximum resistance if it's installed with a particular lead length. Which makes sense. > often used in instances where a board-stuffing machine needs to put > *something* in a hole where a resistor might have gone. Usually they > have one black band in place of the regular 'resistance value' bands). Zero ohm jumpers are a relatively modern idea. I've seen boards in classic computers (some old HP stuff, for example) where options were selected by soldered-in low-value resistors (10 ohm, 22 ohm, etc). A shorting link would have been fine, I guess they used the resistors for the same reason that zero-ohm jumpers are now used -- automatic board-stuffing machines can insert them. Zero ohm jumpers didn't exist back then. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 18:41:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:41:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: <17109.27606.169881.434978@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Jul 13, 5 03:30:30 pm Message-ID: > > >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Beacon writes: > > Jim> My 11/45 has a seperate "Paper Tape Advance" output on the > Jim> console serial interface, whic is set by writing to a register - > Jim> I assume that the Teleprint 390 / ASR33 has either a solenoid > Jim> drive or a clutch that allows the tape to advance one character > Jim> at a time, under processor control. > > Bit 0 in the receive control register, right? That's supposed to be > the papertape reader "reader run" signal. It isn't used as a one > character at a time thing; it is read/write and if set remains set > until explicitly cleared. Are you sure? I was under the impression that setting that bit (conventionally done by INCing the appropriate location in the I/O page) would turn on the reader run relay, which would then be turned off when the card detected the start bit of the character. In other words it _is_ a character-at-a-time. > > The idea is that the system would accept interactive input by leaving > this bit clear, but then when you told it to read a papertape it would > set the bit. That starts the tape. The program would then see > characters streaming in. At some point (perhaps when it sees a string > of nulls, or when it knows the tape is finished by some internal > coding) it would clear reader run again. > > I don't know if this actually was used much. The ASR33s I remember > rarely if ever had this hooked up; the reader run control was done by > flipping the papertape reader switch on the machine. The reader run relay is not a standard Teletype fitment. It was a DEC modification, Intel and others had similar modifications too (and amazingly they werre all much the same). I believe, though, the Data Dynamics 390 has a reader control relay as part of the call control unit (which as I said is very different from the Teletype one). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 18:45:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:45:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM Portable Personal Computer available in Ft. Lauderdale, FL In-Reply-To: <1121283491.25329.92.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 13, 5 07:38:11 pm Message-ID: > I'm surprised anyone would be prepared to ship such a machine across the > pond to us at their expense (particularly as presumably it'd need > modification to the PSU to work here, would likely have a different > keyboard layout etc.) I think the 5155 has a user-accessible switch to select 115 or 230V mains input (albeit without the circuit that HP put in the Integral, the sole purpose of which is to blow the fuse if it's connected to 230V mains when set to 115V, HP's argument being that a portable machine is likely to get connected to the wrong makins at some point). If there is no such switch on the 5155, it's a simple jumper change inside the PSU (and I don't want to re-start the thread (pun intended) about 5155 PSU screws, OK...) Everything else, including the monitor, runs off the low-voltage DC side of the PSU and needs no changes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 13 18:48:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:48:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 progress & questions In-Reply-To: <002a01c587e7$63856990$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jul 13, 5 03:13:46 pm Message-ID: > > Anyway, Jameco or Digikey may work, if the frequency you need happens > > to be a stock one. If not, contact a crystal manufacturer. In years > > past, I've ordered crystals for a custom frequency, quantity one, > > completely painlessly from International Crystal. It seems odd, but > > they have no trouble with custom orders for just a single part. > Yeah, I tried Jan Crystals, they said they couldn't sell me a new crystal > unless I knew something called the "load factor" of the existing crystal. At a guess, try 30pF for this. > That tidbit I don't see in the documentation. They also wanted $20 each, and > that seemed a bit steep. Sounds about right for a 1-off, actually. What frequency do you need, BTW? -tony From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jul 13 19:28:07 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 02:28:07 +0200 Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050711224431.02b45ed0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> References: <42D18D11.5030004@hachti.de> <6.2.3.4.0.20050711224431.02b45ed0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: <42D5B197.2080403@hachti.de> Hi, > I just hooked up my Teleprint 390 to my laptop and it works like a > charm, almost 100%. Good start. > itself. Any idea's what might be wrong here ? First: I don't know. One possible but very unlikely case could be that your ASR makes ONE stop bit and your pc expects TWO. Then you could get in trouble. Is the erroneous output incomplete or are there wrong characters? Is your TTY wired for full duplex or half duplex? From jrice54 at blackcube.org Wed Jul 13 19:35:07 2005 From: jrice54 at blackcube.org (James Rice) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:35:07 -0500 Subject: Next Mouse In-Reply-To: <42D5A02C.289D2A06@rain.org> References: <42D5A02C.289D2A06@rain.org> Message-ID: <42D5B33B.30709@blackcube.org> Marvin Johnston wrote: >I ran across this mouse in some stuff and don't recognize it as going to >the cubes or slabs that I have. Any idea what this might go to? > >http://www.rain.org/~marvin/nextmous.jpg > > > It's a NeXT ADB mouse for a Turbo Cube or a Turbo/Turbo Color slab. It will work with any slab/cube with a ROM revision of v74 or better. James -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 19:35:58 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 01:35:58 +0100 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <000501c58550$18820820$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <42CE0F76.1030703@bitsavers.org> <000501c58550$18820820$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: On 7/10/05, Bob Shannon wrote: > Yes, all the DecTapes and Linctapes belong to Jay. LACE UP EVERY "TAPE". YOU KNOW WHAT YOU DOING. MOVE "TAPE". FOR GREAT JUSTICE. ...sorry, couldn't resist ;) From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 13 19:35:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk Message-ID: Would someone please give me the e-mail address of dkdkk? I need to have it out with him. I'm tired of him sucking up everything on eBay like a fucking black hole. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 13 19:48:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5217360547&category=51046&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1 Somewhat interesting. It's basically a computer recycler that has decided to dump it's entire collection of Apple stuff, including Lisa's, ]['s, and it seems a lot of recent stuff like iMac, G3's, etc. Located in "Northeast USA". Shipping is $750. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From news at computercollector.com Wed Jul 13 20:01:10 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:01:10 -0400 Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507140109.j6E19Cdf067593@keith.ezwind.net> Specifically, it says Middlebury, Vermont... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 8:48 PM To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5217360547&category=51046 &ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1 Somewhat interesting. It's basically a computer recycler that has decided to dump it's entire collection of Apple stuff, including Lisa's, ]['s, and it seems a lot of recent stuff like iMac, G3's, etc. Located in "Northeast USA". Shipping is $750. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jul 13 20:11:01 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jul 13, 2005 05:48:05 PM Message-ID: <200507140111.j6E1B17q015619@onyx.spiritone.com> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5217360547&category=51046&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1 > > Somewhat interesting. It's basically a computer recycler that has decided > to dump it's entire collection of Apple stuff, including Lisa's, ]['s, and > it seems a lot of recent stuff like iMac, G3's, etc. > > Located in "Northeast USA". Shipping is $750. I for one find the following comment to be more than a little disturbing... "The winning bidder will have access to whatever they want in this collection, sold by the palletload..." Zane From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Jul 13 20:18:43 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:18:43 -0400 Subject: Apollo stuff References: <200507130700.j6D70R6m038234@dewey.classiccmp.org><9dfd5012746658963023219ae93afe58@valleyimplants.com> <001601c58800$61cdc520$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <005101c58811$fa6f31e0$0100a8c0@screamer> Some people wanted to know what Apollo gear I have available. It would take some time to make a real list, but here's an overview of the larger bits: 1 DN330 with 72 meg drive, may need a monitor swap (I have spares). About 6 DN300's, with a mix of 40 and 72 meg drives (8 inch Priam's I think). 1 DN660, complete with spare board set, 8 plane graphics, and a spare 300 meg SMD drive, multibus I/O cage, monitor, etc. Currently powers up, but did not boot the last time I tried, but I have not even re-seated the boards and cross over connectors (a common issue with 660's). A small pile of DN3xxx machines, some not complete. I do have a booting, running DN4500, but it has a custom application installed and someone I know really wants the data from that. I was going to give him the whole machine running, but there are other options. I also have some extra token ring board, keyboards, monitors, ESDI drives and other such frippery. Personally, I think the jewel in all of this is the DN660. Its very clean and complete and has spares. Its also interesting in that Apollo could not wait for Motorola to deliver the 68030, so they built their own out of AMD bit-slice parts. Its really an amazing hack. From allain at panix.com Wed Jul 13 20:32:10 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:32:10 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: <001301c58737$135229f0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <00c501c58813$db3d21e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Bob, I plan on going to the MIT Flea. I used Apollos 1982-1986 and have none now. If you have a running sub-50 pound system to get rid of, you can consider me, or not. And thanks for archiving. John A. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Shannon To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 7:11 PM Subject: Re: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 I've got scads of Apollo hardware and documentation. Most of it needs a new home, but there has been little interest so far. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 12:34 PM Subject: Re: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 > > > I think Suns will always be collectable, as they are now. There are > some > > weird things they have made over the years that people seek. > > Early machines from the 'workstation wars', Apollo and Tektronix come to > mind, may be of interest in the future. There doesn't appear to be much > on the technical doc or software side around for these. I tried contacting > they guy who was working on the Apollo port for NetBSD to get the tech > info > he was able to collect, but got nowhere. > > People seem to have saved the later SGI IRIS (3xxx series) though, > probably > because of the neat graphics demos. > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Jul 13 20:41:33 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:41:33 -0500 Subject: Fw: Next Mouse Message-ID: <012601c58815$2baf80e0$14406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 6:28 PM Subject: Re: Next Mouse >I have one that came with a color/turbo slab. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marvin Johnston" > To: "ClassicCmp" > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 6:13 PM > Subject: Next Mouse > > >>I ran across this mouse in some stuff and don't recognize it as going to >> the cubes or slabs that I have. Any idea what this might go to? >> >> http://www.rain.org/~marvin/nextmous.jpg >> From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed Jul 13 20:48:55 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:48:55 -0400 Subject: Panasonic HHC info? In-Reply-To: <200507132028.j6DKSiWT064688@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507132028.j6DKSiWT064688@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <7B030293-8510-4167-9CC4-6B03925F2477@xlisper.mv.com> Thanks in advance! On Jul 13, 2005, at 4:20 PM, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > I have the main HHC instruction manual. Will scan it once I find > it (which > could take a few days!). > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of David Betz > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 4:00 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Panasonic HHC info? > > Well, I have my HHC working pretty much. I replaced the batteries > but that > didn't really help the "insufficient memory" errors. I'm wondering > if it is > necessary to expand the memory to use the Basic ROM. > > Does anyone have a copy of the HHC documentation or any information on > programming it either in Basic or SNAP? > > Thanks, > David > > On Jul 12, 2005, at 1:46 PM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > >> Rumor has it that David Betz may have mentioned these words: >> >> >>> I finally received my HHC Basic ROMs yesterday and they seem to >>> work. >>> (Thanks Roger!) >>> >>> >> >> I *think* (and with the minimal remaining number of functional >> neutrons in my head, that's a toughie! :-O ) I have everyone >> caught up >> on the HHC Basics. To those people who were severely delayed on >> receiving their chips, I publicly apologize -- It was never my >> intention to let this project go "lax" like it did. >> >> If I did forget you, please raise your hands! Then lower them again, >> and type out an email to me, and I'll get you taken care of. >> I currently have a couple of days of "minimal insanity" with which I >> can clean up any last loose ends. >> >> >> >>> I do have a problem where it claims I have insufficient memory to >>> save even the smallest program. I seem to remember hearing someone >>> else complain of that problem as well but I never saw anyone post a >>> solution. >>> >>> >> >> That would've been me; I may have an idea to the cause, but I've not >> had a chance to try it. See below. >> >> >> >>> Has anyone been able to save programs? Is there some trick >>> involved? >>> This is the first time I've used the machine and I suppose there >>> could be left over stuff in RAM that needs to be deleted. >>> >>> >> >> I found that I could get 1 program entered and running, by manually >> deleting everything I could find in the 'filesystem' and immediately >> going to the Basic and setting it to program input mode. [[ This is >> the first time I'd used the machine as well... ]] >> >> However, there was other 'flakeyness' with my HHC as well, and so I >> don't think it's a 'Basic-only' problem. >> >> >> >>> I would think it would have disappeared long ago though since the >>> batteries were dead when I bought the machine and I am only able to >>> run it off of the power supply. Has anyone had success saving >>> programs? >>> >>> >> >> I *think* (and knowing near nothing about this machine, I really, >> really stress *think*) that the batteries _need_ to be functional. >> A lot of portable machines of this era used the batteries as an >> oversized 'smoothing capacitor' for lack of a better term and would >> not operate correctly without a working battery pack. (I have a >> Tandy >> 600 which exhibited similar memory wackyness when running it from AC >> only with no battery pack installed.) >> >> I have not had time to test this theory, however, so I might be 'full >> of condensed milk' as my father-in-law used to say. >> >> >> >>> Also, my machine has a menu entry offering to run SNAP programs >>> but I >>> have been unable to find a description of the SNAP language. I >>> believe it is a Forth derivative. Can someone point me to a >>> description of the SNAP language? >>> >>> >> >> Wish I could; SNAP sounded kewl. What I can tell you is the machine >> uses a CMOS 6502, so if anyone can find a way to read the internal >> ROMS or figure out the BASIC enough to program a ROM dump utility, >> should be pretty easy for one who's good with 6502 disassemblers to >> maybe glean some knowledge about it. (M'self, I'm more a 6809 kinda >> guy...) >> >> As I have some really good soldering/desoldering tools now, I could >> take a stab at desoldering the ROM chip[s] and reading 'em >> directly... >> tho: >> >> 1) I wouldn't know where in memory it resides without manually >> tracing >> address lines & whatnot (which I don't have time for) ... >> or ... >> >> 2) I wouldn't have time to do this for at least a couple of months. >> But hey, we've been waiting almost 10 years now for Basic, right??? >> ;^P >> >> HTH, >> Roger "Merch" Merchberger >> >> -- >> Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." >> SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein >> zmerch at 30below.com | >> >> >> > > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 13 21:52:36 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Panasonic HHC info? In-Reply-To: <7B030293-8510-4167-9CC4-6B03925F2477@xlisper.mv.com> from David Betz at "Jul 13, 5 09:48:55 pm" Message-ID: <200507140252.TAA13126@floodgap.com> > > I have the main HHC instruction manual. Will scan it once I find > > it (which could take a few days!). > Thanks in advance! Likewise! I will also watch for it. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If ignorance is bliss, shouldn't I be happier? ----------------------------- From James at jdfogg.com Wed Jul 13 22:52:37 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:52:37 -0400 Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BEC@sbs.jdfogg.com> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5217360547& category=51046&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1 > > Somewhat interesting. It's basically a computer recycler > that has decided to dump it's entire collection of Apple > stuff, including Lisa's, ]['s, and it seems a lot of recent > stuff like iMac, G3's, etc. > > Located in "Northeast USA". Shipping is $750. Yeah, I think I know who this is. I'm a little pissed as I've bugged them for the vintage stuff before and they act like it's gold, don't want to talk about it, yet sometimes scrap it. Tried to deal on an Octane and it was weeks of "we're not sure what we're doing with it" and then it vanished. I think I'll drive out there tomorrow. From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Jul 13 23:00:19 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:00:19 -0500 Subject: XOR computer web site / belated haul report / Horizon 8/16 In-Reply-To: References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D85@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <42D5E353.3000902@pacbell.net> --- XOR website --- A couple weeks ago I solicited input on the "Data Science XOR computer." I did so here and on one of the usenet groups. I'm not sure which list produced the lead, but a gentleman named Jerry Wright stepped up and very kindly sent me scans of the manuals he had and made copies of boot floppies for me. I've cleaned up the machine (including removing extensive amounts of 20 year old cellophane tape residue), set the jumpers on the floppies to something rational (originally they were nonsense, including using a 16 pin shunt package in place of the 150 ohm termination resistor pack!), and disassembled the ROM looking for clues, but so far it doesn't boot from disk. There are things I can do to make more progress, but for now I'm setting it on the shelf so I can get back to things that were in progress when I let the XOR computer take over my life. I'll get back to it eventually. Meanwhile, I've put up a simple web site with some information about the machine, some pictures, and other resources: the disassembled monitor along with an intel HEX dump, teledisk disk images, and the manuals. The manuals aren't exactly what Jerry gave to me; I changed some page orientations, rearranged pages that were out of order, used G4 compression to cut the file sizes by more than half, and converted the 8bpp covers on one manual to 1 bpp. http://www.thebattles.net/xor/xor.html It might worth ten minutes of idle browsing to some of you, or perhaps someone has one on their shelf and could use the information. Likewise, if you have something to share, please send it to me and I'll add it to the web site. --- HAUL REPORT --- BTW, this was one of the machines I picked up from Stan Johnson, in Aurora, IL, last month. Stan had posted the availability of some machines on this list. The XOR wasn't in his email, but he unearthed it from his storage and made it part of the deal. Now, should I turn my attention next to the Horizon 8/16 multiprocessor system he also gave me? Or one of the Kaypro 10s? Perhaps the Osborne Executive? The Vector? The IMSAI turnkey? Or one of the H89's? Bwwaa, haaa, haaa. :-) Stan was a very nice guy indeed, and not just because he bestowed 8-bit riches upon me. I hope he found a good home for the Vax in his basement. --- Horizon 8/16 computer --- More seriously, next I'll probably dig into the Horizon 8/16. This system is a nearly stock Horizon box (aluminum, not wood, sides) with a beefier power supply. It has one 5.25" floppy disk and one hard disk, both integral. The base Horizon functionality seems to be intact. I'm working on making a boot floppy to bootstrap the hard disk (the system requires booting through the floppy; it doesn't boot the hard disk directly). Code there fires up the N slave Z80s, each with its own local 64 KB of DRAM. My system has two slave Z80s. These slaves each have a small paddle board that feeds RS-232 to a port in the back. The idea was to have one Z80 per user. Although the hard disk hasn't been booted yet, it undoubtedly has a copy of turbodos on it. Dave Dunfield and Barry Watzman have already been some help in getting started on it. I'll report back on it if I make any substantial progress. From news at computercollector.com Thu Jul 14 00:28:28 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 01:28:28 -0400 Subject: Plain old crazy Message-ID: <200507140536.j6E5aZN6069203@keith.ezwind.net> This guy says his Apple II clone value is an "estimate of $8,000"... But he's doing us a favor by offering it for $750... LOL http://tinyurl.com/b27nh ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 760 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 14 01:40:32 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Plain Old Crazy Message-ID: Evan said: > This guy says his Apple II clone value is an "estimate of $8,000"... But > he's doing us a favor by offering it for $750... > > LOL > > http://tinyurl.com/b27nh Actually, this is a somewhat uncommon German Apple ][ clone. I'm not sure how common/rare it is in Germany, but Hans would know. Certainly not $8K, or even $750. Maybe a couple hundred. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Jul 14 03:47:50 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:47:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Plain old crazy In-Reply-To: <200507140536.j6E5aZN6069203@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507140536.j6E5aZN6069203@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <63632.135.196.233.27.1121330870.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > This guy says his Apple II clone value is an "estimate of $8,000"... But > he's doing us a favor by offering it for $750... Some fantastic spelling on his listing too, gawd bless the UK education system. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Jul 14 05:10:42 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:10:42 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D63A22.nailMSS1L70FQ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > I'm tired of him sucking up everything on eBay Do you find yourself suddenly with an excess of warehouse space, Sellam? :-). Tim. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 14 05:47:38 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 03:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D63A22.nailMSS1L70FQ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > I'm tired of him sucking up everything on eBay > > Do you find yourself suddenly with an excess of warehouse space, > Sellam? :-). No, but when it matters he really tends to get in the way. I was trying to score a punched card reader for the Computer History Museum and he came in and snatched it at the last minute. No, I'm not complaining about the snipe. That happens. I am pissed that what would have been a useful tool for a public institution will now be sucked into the black hole of his collection, and until we know what he intends to do with it, I can only assume it's been wasted on the latest "Collect Them All!" junkie. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Thu Jul 14 06:27:36 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:27:36 -0400 Subject: HHC Basic memory problems Message-ID: <3C562AF2-019E-48C2-9E5C-AAF57B63D281@xlisper.mv.com> I think I have this problem figured out. The RL-H1400 has only 4k of memory. If you press the I/O key after a cold start you'll find that you have around 3123 bytes of memory free. If you then enter Basic and type in a one line program, say: 100 print "hello" and then press the clear key to get back to the top menu you'll find you have only about 2 bytes free. If you try to reenter Basic you get the error message about not enough memory. You'll also notice that the filesystem has a file called "B". That must be the Basic workspace. It seems to take up pretty much all of the available memory and it is why you can't create any more files after having run a Basic program. The solution seems to be to type the "bye" command to exit Basic rather than just pressing the clear key. This must free up the workspace before exiting. If you do that after having typed in the one line program above you'll find that you still have around 3098 bytes left. You should then be able to reenter Basic and select the file you saved the last time and run it again. So, it looks like I have Basic working. I still haven't been able to find any information on SNAP though. I have seen some references that suggest that only the SNAP runtime is built into the HHC. Apparently, development was done on another machine. I would still be interested in finding a description of the SNAP language and maybe documentation on the runtime if anyone has any. David From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 14 06:57:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:57:26 +0000 Subject: Next Mouse In-Reply-To: <42D5A02C.289D2A06@rain.org> References: <42D5A02C.289D2A06@rain.org> Message-ID: <1121342246.27159.16.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 16:13 -0700, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I ran across this mouse in some stuff and don't recognize it as going to > the cubes or slabs that I have. You have more than one cube and slab? That's just greedy! ;-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 14 07:06:48 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:06:48 +0000 Subject: Apollo stuff In-Reply-To: <000901c587ff$f651e6a0$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <1121253672.25329.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <1121257266.25310.20.camel@weka.localdomain> <000901c587ff$f651e6a0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <1121342808.27159.26.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 19:09 -0400, Bob Shannon wrote: > 10.4 does not include the SAU's for the very early machines. > > I think mine run SR 9.7.5, which supports the DN660 and DN330's as > well as the 3xxx and 4xxx boxes. Yep, from memory 10.4 will support the DN3xxx and later, just not the earlier machines. We don't have anything earlier than the 3xxx's anyway - it wasn't possible to save the ones that turned up a while ago up north and they ended up as landfill :-( Just in case anyone local has anything, we could do with the following Apollo bits: Late-model Domain keyboard Front case flap for a 4xx machine Foot for vertically mounting a 4xx machine 2 x Front case panels for DN3500 machines 6 x cable adapters (token ring card to BNC) And of course finding some earlier Apollos and a DN10k would sure be nice, but I'm not holding my breath ;) I'd like another five 4xx series machines to go with the three that we have to be honest - 8 in their own little domain would be nice for the public to mess around on, and visually would look nice together rather than a network of random apollos... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 14 07:08:38 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:08:38 +0000 Subject: Apollo stuff In-Reply-To: <001601c58800$61cdc520$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <200507130700.j6D70R6m038234@dewey.classiccmp.org> <9dfd5012746658963023219ae93afe58@valleyimplants.com> <001601c58800$61cdc520$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <1121342918.27179.29.camel@weka.localdomain> Out of interest, did Domain/OS ever run on the 7xx machines or were they purely HP boxes piggybacking on the Apollo name by that point? cheers Jules From James at jdfogg.com Thu Jul 14 07:57:11 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:57:11 -0400 Subject: Plain old crazy Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BF8@sbs.jdfogg.com> > This guy says his Apple II clone value is an "estimate of > $8,000"... But he's doing us a favor by offering it for $750... > > LOL > > http://tinyurl.com/b27nh You should have saved tinyurl.com the bandwidth and mentioned it was on Ebay. I would expect anything on Ebay and pay it no mind. From fryers at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 08:05:24 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:05:24 +0100 Subject: Apollo stuff In-Reply-To: <1121342918.27179.29.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200507130700.j6D70R6m038234@dewey.classiccmp.org> <9dfd5012746658963023219ae93afe58@valleyimplants.com> <001601c58800$61cdc520$0100a8c0@screamer> <1121342918.27179.29.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: All, On 7/14/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Out of interest, did Domain/OS ever run on the 7xx machines or were they > purely HP boxes piggybacking on the Apollo name by that point? The latter. I think the 7xx machines are PA RISC. DomainOS only supported the 68K based machines. I seem to remember a friend installing NextSTEP on a HP/Apollo PA RISC based machine at some point. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From javickers at solutionengineers.com Thu Jul 14 08:12:54 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:12:54 +0100 Subject: Plain Old Crazy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507141322.j6EDMDeY072495@keith.ezwind.net> German? The sticker says "Chester Hall Road, Basildon, Essex", which is about 5 miles from where I'm sitting... I may offer him $7.50 (not ?), see if he bites... Cheers, Ade. -----Original Message----- Actually, this is a somewhat uncommon German Apple ][ clone. I'm not sure how common/rare it is in Germany, but Hans would know. Certainly not $8K, or even $750. Maybe a couple hundred. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.14/48 - Release Date: 13/07/2005 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 14 08:16:30 2005 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:16:30 -0400 Subject: Offer: Cache RAM chips from old 486 boards In-Reply-To: <42D3F3B1.1090409@sbcglobal.net> References: <42D3F3B1.1090409@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <42D665AE.2010508@sbcglobal.net> Due to overwhelming response, I'm giving these away for free. Just cover the shipping cost, which would probably be around $5 or so. I'd rather not throw good electronics in the bin... David Woyciesjes wrote: > I've got a couple small boxes for cache RAM chips that have been > pulled from old 486 motherboards. If you want them, it'll cost you a > measly sum of $15.00 (US), to cover time, materials & shipping costs. > > Here's the list of what I've got: > Qty: Mfg. part number (first line on chip only) > 3 Winbond? W2465AK-15 > 1 GL? GLT725608-15T > 11 ISSI IS61C512-15N > 8 UMC UM61512AK-15 > 8 UMC UM61M256K-15 > 8 UMC UM61256CK-20 > 26 UMC UM61256CK-15 > > 65 total chips. I can give you more info off of the chips if you like. > > I also have 2 Dallas DS1642-070 Timekeeping RAM chips. I got them as > samples, intending on sticking them in a SparcStation 1+ I had. I've > since given up on that box. These 2 were never stuck in any computer. > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 14 08:44:22 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:44:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Plain Old Crazy Message-ID: <20050714134422.37032.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Actually, this is a somewhat uncommon German Apple ][ clone. > I'm not sure how common/rare it is in Germany, but Hans would > know. Certainly not $8K,or even $750. Maybe a couple hundred. I remember the ITT being more common than the real Apple at the time. Had three of them at school. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Jul 14 09:19:08 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:19:08 -0400 Subject: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards In-Reply-To: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE3D0@exchange.olf.com> References: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE3D0@exchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050706100400.0763d068@mail.netsync.net> At 14:54 05-07-05, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: >Hi Chris, > >Drivers for the SBS 616 are available for Windows XP/Linux/Solaris here: > >http://www.sbs.com/products/software/280 > >I picked mine up on ebay. I also picked up a SBUS-to-VME one as well, but >its from Performance Tech SBS915 as well. >There is currently one on ebay for a relatively cheap price (picked mine >from the same guy): > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=51239&item=3983996787 >&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > >And its New in Box condition like mines. Now, if my board needs to use J2 >connectors, do I need to install that on top of the terminators as well? J2 connections are not from the VMEbus but can be described as usually an interface to the outside world. Let's use an example of, say, the MVME147* family of processor boards, in which the P2 connector on the module has connections to SCSI devices, serial ports, Ethernet, etc. And in this case of the example MVME147* board, there will be used a transition module as illustrated on a certain auction site using the number 5786398985 (MVME712/M). Note in the pictures the largest connector on the surface of the '712 board. Its the P2 connections jumpered over from P2 on the '147 board. SCSI terminators are the yellow resistor packs. The 5-pin SCSI connector is on the upper right edge. Except for needing to follow the SCSI termination rules, no other terminators are used on this board. The MVME320 is an MFM disk I/F module which, IIRC, has the disk cable connections out the P2 conn in addition to the ribbon cable connectors on the front panel. My '320 is buried in the collection at the moment, but I'm rather sure it too does not have terminators for the MFM disk cables. Cable lengths should be kept short as possible. So, all this rambling is to say that terminations, such as used on the VMEbus, are not *normally* needed on P2. Just depends on what is hung off the P2. >The transputer boards has its own J2 plug which I installed on all the >slots. Why do you need terminators if the chassis is limited to only 5 >slots and all the slots are occupied??? Even on a short-length VMEbus, signal "ringing", or reflections, can occur with the short pulse lengths and fast rise-times that may be found on the bus signals. Transmission line theory is involved here. What does P2 connect to on your transputer boards? Regards, Chris F. NNNN >Thanks, > >Ram Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 14 09:33:28 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:33:28 -0700 Subject: Next Mouse Message-ID: <42D677B8.9D505130@rain.org> I haven't looked in a while, but I have at least two or three of each along with monitors, a NeXT laser printer, and docs. I loved playing with the sound system and kept one close to the piano for a while. It was great being able to record, listen, and practice ... again and again :). > From: Jules Richardson > > On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 16:13 -0700, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I ran across this mouse in some stuff and don't recognize it as going to > > the cubes or slabs that I have. > > You have more than one cube and slab? That's just greedy! ;-) From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Jul 14 09:51:54 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:51:54 -0700 Subject: Apollo stuff In-Reply-To: <200507141300.j6ED0WEo054465@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507141300.j6ED0WEo054465@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: /700s only share the name with "real" Apollos, although I suppose that could be taken as a positive, as Digital didn't even get that much recognition. -Scott Quinn From kth at srv.net Thu Jul 14 10:28:57 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:28:57 -0600 Subject: Plain old crazy In-Reply-To: <200507140536.j6E5aZN6069203@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507140536.j6E5aZN6069203@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42D684B9.8080509@srv.net> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >This guy says his Apple II clone value is an "estimate of $8,000"... But >he's doing us a favor by offering it for $750... > > > Interesting how it is black in one picture, and white in another. >LOL > >http://tinyurl.com/b27nh > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jul 14 10:38:13 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:38:13 -0500 Subject: WTB: Sun3 SCSI card Message-ID: <200507141038.14090.pat@computer-refuge.org> I need a SCSI card for my Sun 3/180. Is there anyone that can help me? I've got a few $$ I could spend towards it, but I'm not willing to pay insane amounts of cash. ;) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 14 10:54:08 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:54:08 -0400 Subject: WTB: Sun3 SCSI card In-Reply-To: <200507141038.14090.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050714115408.00972430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Do you have a PN for the card? I have a SUN sitting behind me with what looks like a SCSI/Ethernet card in it. The cover is missing so I don't know what model the puter is but it's one of the pizza boxs. I'll pull the card and get it's PN. Joe At 10:38 AM 7/14/05 -0500, you wrote: >I need a SCSI card for my Sun 3/180. Is there anyone that can help me? >I've got a few $$ I could spend towards it, but I'm not willing to pay >insane amounts of cash. ;) > >Pat >-- >Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 14 11:11:26 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:11:26 -0400 Subject: WTB: Sun3 SCSI card Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050714121126.0097bc20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Pat, Pulled the card and got the number. It's a Sun 501-2015-032 (Fast SCSI-2 and Ethernet SBus Card). It also had a 501-2708 CPU module in it (SM50 SUPERSPARC MODULE?) and a National Instruments SBUS-GPIB card and a bunch of Kingston KTS 32000/S20 128MB (2x 64MB) KTS 32000/S20 memory sticks in it. Joe Do you have a PN for the card? I have a SUN sitting behind me with what looks like a SCSI/Ethernet card in it. The cover is missing so I don't know what model the puter is but it's one of the pizza boxs. I'll pull the card and get it's PN. Joe At 10:38 AM 7/14/05 -0500, you wrote: >I need a SCSI card for my Sun 3/180. Is there anyone that can help me? >I've got a few $$ I could spend towards it, but I'm not willing to pay >insane amounts of cash. ;) > >Pat >-- >Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jul 14 11:19:32 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:19:32 -0500 Subject: WTB: Sun3 SCSI card In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050714115408.00972430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050714115408.00972430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200507141119.33136.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 14 July 2005 10:54, Joe R. wrote: > Do you have a PN for the card? I have a SUN sitting behind me with > what looks like a SCSI/Ethernet card in it. The cover is missing so I > don't know what model the puter is but it's one of the pizza boxs. > I'll pull the card and get it's PN. The card I need is a VME card that fits in one of the big VME chassis; that's most likely an SBUS card. >From what I can find, it looks like I need the SCSI card that is a "small" VME card in a frame that adapts it from 2-connector to 3-connector VME, and the actual card is part # 501-1236. The number on the ouside of the system should be either 501-1170, or 501-1217, I think. Thanks, Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 11:44:58 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:44:58 -0500 Subject: WTB: Sun3 SCSI card In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050714121126.0097bc20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050714121126.0097bc20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 7/14/05, Joe R. wrote: > It also had a National Instruments SBUS-GPIB card... That sounds like fun, especially if one can tell the card to be a peripheral, and not the master. Even as a master, it could be handy to hang Commodore or HP equipment off of. -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jul 14 11:42:46 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WTB: Sun3 SCSI card In-Reply-To: <200507141038.14090.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200507141038.14090.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200507141646.MAA06896@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I need a SCSI card for my Sun 3/180. Is there anyone that can help > me? I've got a few $$ I could spend towards it, but I'm not willing > to pay insane amounts of cash. ;) Do you happen to know whether they're compatible with SCSI cards from other VME-based Suns? I've got a -4/470 and the cards (but not the chassis) from another -4/470, and two, I think, -3/260s. Surely in there there's at least one SCSI card I can liberate, but I don't want to send you a card only to find it doesn't work in your -3/180. I'll check the 501- numbers when I get home to see if any of them match the numbers you gave in your other message (501-1236, 501-1170, 501-1217). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Jul 14 11:58:30 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 09:58:30 -0700 Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay References: <200507140111.j6E1B17q015619@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <42D699B6.3182A595@msm.umr.edu> They also will not list the individual items because the "tech" is gone for the week, and in another part of the description, they complain that they are having the auction because they could not hire a competent "Apple" tech to save them. It makes you wonder what sort of answer the tech they have will provide wrt to what is there. "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5217360547&category=51046&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1 > > > > Somewhat interesting. It's basically a computer recycler that has decided > > to dump it's entire collection of Apple stuff, including Lisa's, ]['s, and > > it seems a lot of recent stuff like iMac, G3's, etc. > > > > Located in "Northeast USA". Shipping is $750. > > I for one find the following comment to be more than a little disturbing... > > "The winning bidder will have access to whatever they want in this > collection, sold by the palletload..." > > Zane From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 14 12:05:07 2005 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:05:07 -0400 Subject: Offer: Cache RAM chips from old 486 boards In-Reply-To: <42D665AE.2010508@sbcglobal.net> References: <42D3F3B1.1090409@sbcglobal.net> <42D665AE.2010508@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <42D69B43.70900@sbcglobal.net> They've been rescued... :) David Woyciesjes wrote: > Due to overwhelming response, I'm giving these away for free. Just > cover the shipping cost, which would probably be around $5 or so. I'd > rather not throw good electronics in the bin... > > David Woyciesjes wrote: > >> I've got a couple small boxes for cache RAM chips that have been >> pulled from old 486 motherboards. If you want them, it'll cost you a >> measly sum of $15.00 (US), to cover time, materials & shipping costs. >> >> Here's the list of what I've got: >> Qty: Mfg. part number (first line on chip only) >> 3 Winbond? W2465AK-15 >> 1 GL? GLT725608-15T >> 11 ISSI IS61C512-15N >> 8 UMC UM61512AK-15 >> 8 UMC UM61M256K-15 >> 8 UMC UM61256CK-20 >> 26 UMC UM61256CK-15 >> >> 65 total chips. I can give you more info off of the chips if you like. >> >> I also have 2 Dallas DS1642-070 Timekeeping RAM chips. I got them >> as samples, intending on sticking them in a SparcStation 1+ I had. >> I've since given up on that box. These 2 were never stuck in any >> computer. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 14 12:31:07 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:31:07 +0000 Subject: WTB: Sun3 SCSI card In-Reply-To: <200507141646.MAA06896@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200507141038.14090.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200507141646.MAA06896@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1121362267.27179.56.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-14 at 12:42 -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > I need a SCSI card for my Sun 3/180. Is there anyone that can help > > me? I've got a few $$ I could spend towards it, but I'm not willing > > to pay insane amounts of cash. ;) > > Do you happen to know whether they're compatible with SCSI cards from > other VME-based Suns? I've got a -4/470 and the cards (but not the > chassis) from another -4/470, and two, I think, -3/260s. Surely in > there there's at least one SCSI card I can liberate, but I don't want > to send you a card only to find it doesn't work in your -3/180. I'm pretty sure the 4/470 has the SCSI controller integrated on the CPU board, despite being VME. I have a feeling that some of the Sun3 line are like this too - and then other Sun3's (like the 3/50, 3/60) weren't ever designed to support a disk controller; they were simply diskless workstations. We're actually in the same position - I've got a feeling it's a 3/150 that we have which has a CPU card, extra memory card, but no disk controller whatsoever. Lack of disk controller seems pretty common on this class of Sun, yet if they were supposed to be faster diskless workstations I'm not sure why Sun went to the expense of giving them a VME backplane. Maybe they were aimed more at process control where storage either wasn't needed or was expected to be remote? cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 14 12:39:22 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:39:22 +0000 Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BEC@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BEC@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <1121362762.27179.60.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 23:52 -0400, James Fogg wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5217360547& > category=51046&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1 > > > > Somewhat interesting. It's basically a computer recycler > > that has decided to dump it's entire collection of Apple > > stuff, including Lisa's, ]['s, and it seems a lot of recent > > stuff like iMac, G3's, etc. > > > > Located in "Northeast USA". Shipping is $750. > > Yeah, I think I know who this is. I'm a little pissed as I've bugged > them for the vintage stuff before and they act like it's gold, don't > want to talk about it, yet sometimes scrap it. Yep, one of my local recyclers is like that. I think they assume that anyone who appears to be knowledgeable about what they have is immediately going to take their junk and make a fortune selling it. Tell them that it's worthless in financial terms and they think you're lying; tell them that you absolutely will not sell it on and they still think you're lying. I haven't figured out a way of dealing with that class of people yet :-( cheers Jules From fzrfast at bellsouth.net Fri Jul 15 10:39:54 2005 From: fzrfast at bellsouth.net (fzrfast) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:39:54 -0400 Subject: MindSet Pc Graphics computer 80186 cpu Message-ID: <42D7D8CA.3030408@bellsouth.net> Does anyone know of complete Mindset Pc system including TimeArts Lumena paint package that ran on that computer? Early 1980's stuff. Jim Cox From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jul 14 12:47:14 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Plain old crazy In-Reply-To: <63632.135.196.233.27.1121330870.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> from "Witchy" at Jul 14, 2005 09:47:50 AM Message-ID: <200507141747.j6EHlESJ011997@onyx.spiritone.com> adrian/witchy wrote: > > This guy says his Apple II clone value is an "estimate of $8,000"... But > > he's doing us a favor by offering it for $750... > > Some fantastic spelling on his listing too, gawd bless the UK education > system. I don't know, I found the writing to be "verry" good compared to a lot that I've seen. Having said that it's the first time I've ever seen "very" spelled "verry". :^) Zane From cb at mythtech.net Thu Jul 14 12:51:09 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:51:09 -0400 Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay Message-ID: >Yep, one of my local recyclers is like that. I think they assume that >anyone who appears to be knowledgeable about what they have is >immediately going to take their junk and make a fortune selling it. Tell >them that it's worthless in financial terms and they think you're lying; >tell them that you absolutely will not sell it on and they still think >you're lying. I haven't figured out a way of dealing with that class of >people yet :-( Bring your SO along, pretend to spot the item and say "Oh look honey, this is just like the we were using when we met". Then have your SO say "Oh, we simply MUST buy it" Then offer the guy 50% of what you really are willing to pay for it. Watch the dollar signs roll in his eyes as you haggle your way up to the amount you were willing to pay. -chris From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Jul 14 13:00:55 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:00:55 -0400 (edt) Subject: Plain old crazy In-Reply-To: <200507141747.j6EHlESJ011997@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Jul 14, 05 10:47:14 am Message-ID: <200507141800.OAA29283@wordstock.com> And thusly Zane H. Healy spake: > > adrian/witchy wrote: > > > This guy says his Apple II clone value is an "estimate of $8,000"... But > > > he's doing us a favor by offering it for $750... > > > > Some fantastic spelling on his listing too, gawd bless the UK education > > system. > > I don't know, I found the writing to be "verry" good compared to a lot that > I've seen. Having said that it's the first time I've ever seen "very" > spelled "verry". :^) > That goes along with the verry groovy backgrounds, man! Cheers, Bryan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 14 13:13:13 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:13:13 +0000 Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121364793.27179.68.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-14 at 13:51 -0400, chris wrote: > >Yep, one of my local recyclers is like that. I think they assume that > >anyone who appears to be knowledgeable about what they have is > >immediately going to take their junk and make a fortune selling it. Tell > >them that it's worthless in financial terms and they think you're lying; > >tell them that you absolutely will not sell it on and they still think > >you're lying. I haven't figured out a way of dealing with that class of > >people yet :-( > > Bring your SO along, pretend to spot the item and say "Oh look honey, > this is just like the we were using when we met". Then > have your SO say "Oh, we simply MUST buy it" > > Then offer the guy 50% of what you really are willing to pay for it. > Watch the dollar signs roll in his eyes as you haggle your way up to the > amount you were willing to pay. Heh :) That probably only works once for one item though - I'm not sure of a good strategy for the situations where they get piles of retro stuff every week given to them and they just scrap it for gold value. Actually, my strategy so far's been to make sure people know of the museum such that they'll approach me with offers of things first, which does work to a certain extent - but the recyclers still get stuff in from school clearouts, office storage etc. cheers J. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jul 14 13:21:26 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:21:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WTB: Sun3 SCSI card In-Reply-To: <1121362267.27179.56.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200507141038.14090.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200507141646.MAA06896@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1121362267.27179.56.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200507141824.OAA07753@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> I need a SCSI card for my Sun 3/180. >> Do you happen to know whether they're compatible with SCSI cards >> from other VME-based Suns? I've got a -4/470 and the cards (but not >> the chassis) from another -4/470, and two, I think, -3/260s. Surely >> in there there's at least one SCSI card I can liberate, > I'm pretty sure the 4/470 has the SCSI controller integrated on the > CPU board, despite being VME. I think it had *a* SCSI controller on the CPU board, but it wasn't *the* SCSI controller - I'm quite sure at least one of my machines has two SCSI interfaces. > I have a feeling that some of the Sun3 line are like this too - and > then other Sun3's (like the 3/50, 3/60) weren't ever designed to > support a disk controller; they were simply diskless workstations. I've never seen a -3/50 or -3/60 without a SCSI interface. Have you? (It's the DD50F connector, and I think on that era of machine it's even marked "SCSI".) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jul 14 13:35:34 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:35:34 -0700 Subject: What about TSX+? Good News! In-Reply-To: <42D59F77.3020404@gjcp.net> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <200507131337.56175.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <42D59F77.3020404@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200507141135.35453.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I just received permission this morning from S&H to release TSX Plus 6.5, RTSORT and COBOL and their associated documentation to the PDP-11 collector community for non-commercial use. I'm in the process of working with other folks to determine the best way to support the distribution under a non-commercial "license". Be a bit patient while we work out the details. For those who aren't familiar with S&H's very cool PDP-11 products, here's a brief overview: TSX Plus - enables multiuser, multiterminal RT (you must already have a copy of RT to implement this product) RTSORT - the fastest sort program available for the PDP-11. Sorting used to be a major function in commercial data processing (and still is in mainframe "Batch" processing). RTSORT ran circles around Digital's own sort package. COBOL - the big deal is that while DEC's COBOL required careful planning of overlays - S&H's COBOL did automatic virtual handling of memory - so one could take off-the-shelf IBM COBOL programs and run them on a DEC systems without the need to modify them for "overlays". Be assured that we will expedite this release as soon as reasonably possible. Please do not ask me privately for a copy of these products in the meantime. Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Jul 14 13:45:15 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:45:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WTB: Sun3 SCSI card In-Reply-To: <200507141824.OAA07753@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200507141038.14090.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200507141646.MAA06896@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1121362267.27179.56.camel@weka.localdomain> <200507141824.OAA07753@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, der Mouse wrote: >> I have a feeling that some of the Sun3 line are like this too - and >> then other Sun3's (like the 3/50, 3/60) weren't ever designed to >> support a disk controller; they were simply diskless workstations. > > I've never seen a -3/50 or -3/60 without a SCSI interface. Have you? > (It's the DD50F connector, and I think on that era of machine it's even > marked "SCSI".) I'll second that. I borrowed a 3/60 from work for a while in the late '80s, and it definitely has onboard SCSI. Same for the 3/50. http://www.sun3zoo.de/en/sun360.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 14 13:47:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay In-Reply-To: <1121364793.27179.68.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-07-14 at 13:51 -0400, chris wrote: > > >Yep, one of my local recyclers is like that. I think they assume that > > >anyone who appears to be knowledgeable about what they have is > > >immediately going to take their junk and make a fortune selling it. Tell > > >them that it's worthless in financial terms and they think you're lying; > > >tell them that you absolutely will not sell it on and they still think > > >you're lying. I haven't figured out a way of dealing with that class of > > >people yet :-( > > > > Bring your SO along, pretend to spot the item and say "Oh look honey, > > this is just like the we were using when we met". Then > > have your SO say "Oh, we simply MUST buy it" > > > > Then offer the guy 50% of what you really are willing to pay for it. > > Watch the dollar signs roll in his eyes as you haggle your way up to the > > amount you were willing to pay. > > Heh :) That probably only works once for one item though - I'm not sure > of a good strategy for the situations where they get piles of retro > stuff every week given to them and they just scrap it for gold value. Relationships sometimes take time to build. Once you gain their trust & friendship then eventually they'll start to treat you nicely. If not, move on as they don't deserve your loyalty. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 14 13:56:42 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:56:42 -0700 Subject: Sun VME SCSI Message-ID: <11b05baa0a4e943bd24911949146b639@bitsavers.org> sun pn 501-1217 just pulled it out of a 4/470gx, Pat If someone in the bay area is interested in making an offer on the rest of the machine, send me email. From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 13:59:32 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sphere 1 computer from 1976 Message-ID: <20050714185932.25430.qmail@web40907.mail.yahoo.com> Folks, I was contacted by a person who has a Sphere 1 kit computer from 1976, and wants to know more about it. It was his fathers, who has passed away. Feel free to post or send me any info you might have and I'll pass it on to him. Thanks- Steve. ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Jul 14 13:57:23 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:57:23 -0400 (edt) Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jul 14, 05 11:47:04 am Message-ID: <200507141857.OAA14260@wordstock.com> And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake: > > Relationships sometimes take time to build. Once you gain their trust & > friendship then eventually they'll start to treat you nicely. If not, > move on as they don't deserve your loyalty. But what about the stuff they have?? Cheers, Bryan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 14 14:10:30 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:10:30 +0000 Subject: WTB: Sun3 SCSI card In-Reply-To: <200507141824.OAA07753@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200507141038.14090.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200507141646.MAA06896@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1121362267.27179.56.camel@weka.localdomain> <200507141824.OAA07753@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1121368230.27159.71.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-14 at 14:21 -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > I have a feeling that some of the Sun3 line are like this too - and > > then other Sun3's (like the 3/50, 3/60) weren't ever designed to > > support a disk controller; they were simply diskless workstations. > > I've never seen a -3/50 or -3/60 without a SCSI interface. Have you? > (It's the DD50F connector, and I think on that era of machine it's even > marked "SCSI".) Yes, you're right - I'm going mad :-) cheers Jules From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Thu Jul 14 14:19:15 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:19:15 +0000 Subject: Sphere 1 computer from 1976 Message-ID: <071420051919.13211.42D6BAAF000D52730000339B22073000330603970A04040108@comcast.net> Here is some info on the Sphere 1 http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/BYTE/Jan1976/Jan_1976_BYTE.htm ------------------------------- Michael Holley swtpc6800 at comcast.net www.swtpc.com ------------------------------- From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jul 14 14:29:48 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:29:48 -0500 Subject: WTB: Sun3 SCSI card In-Reply-To: <200507141646.MAA06896@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200507141038.14090.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200507141646.MAA06896@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200507141429.49004.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 14 July 2005 11:42, der Mouse wrote: > > I need a SCSI card for my Sun 3/180. Is there anyone that can help > > me? I've got a few $$ I could spend towards it, but I'm not > > willing to pay insane amounts of cash. ;) > > Do you happen to know whether they're compatible with SCSI cards from > other VME-based Suns? I've got a -4/470 and the cards (but not the > chassis) from another -4/470, and two, I think, -3/260s. Surely in > there there's at least one SCSI card I can liberate, but I don't want > to send you a card only to find it doesn't work in your -3/180. According to Sun, they were used in VME 4/xxx models as well: http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Systems/Sun4/SCSI_Sun3_Host_Adptr.html > I'll check the 501- numbers when I get home to see if any of them > match the numbers you gave in your other message (501-1236, 501-1170, > 501-1217). Thanks. Though, I'm a bit worried about time... I want it for a machine I'm going to be exhibiting at VCF/Midwest and that's only 2 weeks away now... shipping to/from Canada might take too long, and I don't have that much to spend on getting this working. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 14 14:32:37 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:32:37 -0700 Subject: VME SCSI Message-ID: <1085f1e4083b0b5f52d4ebe3dd1260da@bitsavers.org> Though, I'm a bit worried about time... I want it for a machine I'm going to be exhibiting at VCF/Midwest and that's only 2 weeks away now... shipping to/from Canada might take too long, and I don't have that much to spend on getting this working. -- Before anyone else wastes their time, Mr Finnegan is willing to pay FIFTEEN whole American Dollars for the board. Next time, just SAY how much you're willing to spend before I waste my time looking for one. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jul 14 14:43:12 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:43:12 -0500 Subject: VME SCSI In-Reply-To: <1085f1e4083b0b5f52d4ebe3dd1260da@bitsavers.org> References: <1085f1e4083b0b5f52d4ebe3dd1260da@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200507141443.12708.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 14 July 2005 14:32, Al Kossow wrote: > Though, I'm a bit worried about time... I want it for a machine I'm > going to be exhibiting at VCF/Midwest and that's only 2 weeks away > now... shipping to/from Canada might take too long, and I don't have > that much to spend on getting this working. > > -- > > Before anyone else wastes their time, Mr Finnegan is willing to > pay FIFTEEN whole American Dollars for the board. And $15 is what I'd consider at the high end of what such a board is worth... > Next time, just SAY how much you're willing to spend before I > waste my time looking for one. I apollogise that I didn't state an exact amount, but I guess different people have different ideas was "don't want to spend an insane amount for a SCSI card" means. :( Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 14 14:50:17 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:50:17 +0000 Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 Message-ID: <1121370617.27159.82.camel@weka.localdomain> I've been offered one of these - anyone know anything about them? Google seems reluctant to divulge any info... We've got three Whitechapel MG-1 machines so I pounced on this one as a different example of the Whitechapel line - but I've been unable to find any info on it so far. As the MG-200 is appears to be a faster version of the MG-1, I'm assuming that the CG-200 is a variant on the MG-200 (likely with better video ability). The current owner was also told that it uses a Z8000 CPU, but I'm reasonably confident that it'll turn out to be a Natsemi 32016 like the other Whitechapel machines... We've got a few manuals for the MG-1, so hopefully it's similar enough that the docs will be relevant! cheers Jules From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 14 14:42:17 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:42:17 -0400 Subject: WTB: Sun3 SCSI card In-Reply-To: <200507141119.33136.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20050714115408.00972430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050714115408.00972430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050714154217.00981e90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Pat, yes, this one has an S-bus card. I don't think I have any VME SCSI cards. Joe At 11:19 AM 7/14/05 -0500, you wrote: >On Thursday 14 July 2005 10:54, Joe R. wrote: >> Do you have a PN for the card? I have a SUN sitting behind me with >> what looks like a SCSI/Ethernet card in it. The cover is missing so I >> don't know what model the puter is but it's one of the pizza boxs. >> I'll pull the card and get it's PN. > >The card I need is a VME card that fits in one of the big VME chassis; >that's most likely an SBUS card. > >>From what I can find, it looks like I need the SCSI card that is a >"small" VME card in a frame that adapts it from 2-connector to >3-connector VME, and the actual card is part # 501-1236. The number on >the ouside of the system should be either 501-1170, or 501-1217, I >think. > >Thanks, > >Pat >-- >Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 14 14:45:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:45:04 -0400 Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay In-Reply-To: <1121362762.27179.60.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BEC@sbs.jdfogg.com> <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BEC@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050714154504.00a11510@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:39 PM 7/14/05 +0000, Jules wrote: >On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 23:52 -0400, James Fogg wrote: >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5217360547& >> category=51046&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1 >> > >> > Somewhat interesting. It's basically a computer recycler >> > that has decided to dump it's entire collection of Apple >> > stuff, including Lisa's, ]['s, and it seems a lot of recent >> > stuff like iMac, G3's, etc. >> > >> > Located in "Northeast USA". Shipping is $750. >> >> Yeah, I think I know who this is. I'm a little pissed as I've bugged >> them for the vintage stuff before and they act like it's gold, don't >> want to talk about it, yet sometimes scrap it. > >Yep, one of my local recyclers is like that. I think they assume that >anyone who appears to be knowledgeable about what they have is >immediately going to take their junk and make a fortune selling it. Tell >them that it's worthless in financial terms and they think you're lying; >tell them that you absolutely will not sell it on and they still think >you're lying. I haven't figured out a way of dealing with that class of >people yet :-( I haven't either. They usually try to sell on E-bay and then find out that there's no money in it or else it's too much work so they give up and just scrap everything :-( Joe From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 15:07:10 2005 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:07:10 -0400 Subject: IDE hard drive on original IBM AT? Message-ID: Hello all, I have two "true-blue" IBM ATs, both the early motherboard revision. I have the following questions: - Is it possible to use an IDE hard drive instead of MFM? I have tried several different drive/controller combos, and nothing works so far :-( . The drives are small ( < 100 MB), so it's not a geometry issue (at least, I don't think so :-) ) - Is anyone running an early rev. AT with an IDE drive? How did you do it? :-) - I Google'd a bit, and someone mentioned not only upgraded disk-based setup programs, but also upgrade BIOSes for the AT. Does anyone have an upgraded setup disk or BIOS that they'd be willing to copy for me? Thanks all! Rich B. From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Jul 14 15:09:27 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:09:27 -0700 Subject: What about TSX+? Good News! In-Reply-To: <200507141135.35453.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <200507131337.56175.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <42D59F77.3020404@gjcp.net> <200507141135.35453.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: Lyle, At 11:35 AM -0700 7/14/05, Lyle Bickley wrote: >I just received permission this morning from S&H to release TSX Plus 6.5, >RTSORT and COBOL and their associated documentation to the PDP-11 collector >community for non-commercial use. Thanks so much for taking the lead on this, resulting in a successful conclusion. TSX+ was an excellent product and environment in it's time and I'm very pleased to see the S&H folks appreciate the value of our community. John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 15:12:22 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:12:22 -0500 Subject: XOR computer web site / belated haul report / Horizon 8/16 In-Reply-To: <42D5E353.3000902@pacbell.net> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D85@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <42D5E353.3000902@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On 7/13/05, Jim Battle wrote: > --- XOR website --- > > A couple weeks ago I solicited input on the "Data Science XOR computer."... > Jerry Wright stepped up and very kindly sent me > scans of the manuals he had and made copies of boot floppies for me. Cool! (read on...) > http://www.thebattles.net/xor/xor.html > > It might worth ten minutes of idle browsing to some of you, or perhaps someone > has one on their shelf and could use the information. Likewise, if you have > something to share, please send it to me and I'll add it to the web site. Indeed it was worth the browse - I think I have one of these, the larger size depicted on trailingedge.com (more than 4 slots)... my sister-in-law is a counter clerk at the Post Office, and one of her regular customers had one in our neighborhood was looking to find a new home for his old computer. I don't know how they got on to that topic, but at some point, she gave him my name and I drove the 4 blocks to his house and loaded up a small pile of S-100 stuff. I haven't had the time to look at it, but I'm really happy to see there's a repository of info. I don't have any software or XOR-specific docs, so everything there looks great. Thanks, Jim, for collating this stuff and making it available. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 14 15:21:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:21:26 +0000 Subject: VME SCSI In-Reply-To: <200507141443.12708.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <1085f1e4083b0b5f52d4ebe3dd1260da@bitsavers.org> <200507141443.12708.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1121372486.27159.104.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-14 at 14:43 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 14 July 2005 14:32, Al Kossow wrote: > > Though, I'm a bit worried about time... I want it for a machine I'm > > going to be exhibiting at VCF/Midwest and that's only 2 weeks away > > now... shipping to/from Canada might take too long, and I don't have > > that much to spend on getting this working. > > > > -- > > > > Before anyone else wastes their time, Mr Finnegan is willing to > > pay FIFTEEN whole American Dollars for the board. > > And $15 is what I'd consider at the high end of what such a board is > worth... Seconded - I'd sort of think of it as a PC ISA SCSI card kind of price with some sort of factor for it being VME. Although if you look at some of the Sun reseller websites, the prices for VME stuff are *really* crazy. I can't imagine there are that many VME-based Sun machines still doing real work out there, but the prices would suggest otherwise. FWIW, I had lots of luck with posting to uk.comp.sys.sun when I was looking for a 4/330 (VME) CPU board. Not the right group in your case, but posting to comp.sys.sun.hardware or comp.sys.sun.wanted might be a good plan. At least on the UK group there seemed to be a lot of lurkers even though there weren't that many active posters. cheers Jules From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jul 14 16:16:56 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:16:56 -0400 Subject: KDJ11 eproms / M7554-PB conversion? Message-ID: <200507142116.j6ELGunG000751@mwave.heeltoe.com> Hi, Does anyone have direct experience replacing the eproms in a M7554-PB? The top layer says "CPU KDJ11-D". It's s-box and is labeled M7554-PB. The eproms are 27C256's. I want to replace them with 23-261E5 and 23-262E5 images (16k, or 27C128) to turn the board into (hopefully) a PDP-11/53. I managed to erase two 27C128's and burn them this morning but I discovered that the instructions I found on the web http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl/KDJ11.htm don't match my board (very nice instructions, none the less - thanks!) I may just try it and see what happens, or reprogram the 27C256's with the image doubled, just for fun. -brad From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 16:31:25 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:31:25 -0500 Subject: KDJ11 eproms / M7554-PB conversion? In-Reply-To: <200507142116.j6ELGunG000751@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200507142116.j6ELGunG000751@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 7/14/05, Brad Parker wrote: > > Hi, > > Does anyone have direct experience replacing the eproms in a M7554-PB? Indirect, sorry... > I managed to erase two 27C128's and burn them this morning but I discovered > that the instructions I found on the web > > http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl/KDJ11.htm I have a board that Jon modded for me, so I have confidence in his instructions. I'm curious what board/rev you have that would be different than the one described. -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 14 16:46:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay In-Reply-To: <200507141857.OAA14260@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake: > > > > Relationships sometimes take time to build. Once you gain their trust & > > friendship then eventually they'll start to treat you nicely. If not, > > move on as they don't deserve your loyalty. > > But what about the stuff they have?? Oh well. There are other recyclers out there. Or better yet, start your own recycling operation. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From appleto at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 17:29:57 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:29:57 -0400 Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay In-Reply-To: <1121362762.27179.60.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BEC@sbs.jdfogg.com> <1121362762.27179.60.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On 7/14/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > Yep, one of my local recyclers is like that. I think they assume that > anyone who appears to be knowledgeable about what they have is > immediately going to take their junk and make a fortune selling it. Their job is recycling goods. They rarely want to spend the time or money to sort through the equipment properly, test it, clean it up, track down customers, and support it if something goes wrong after the fact. As such, they have no right to complain if somebody scavanges for goods then sells them at a premium. The scavangers are adding value to the product by establishing relationships both with suppliers and with customers. The suppliers get a little more cash than they would by scrapping the equipment, and are saved from the effort of backing their product. The customers are reasonably sure that they are getting what they want, without spending the time to establish their own network or taking the risk of buying equipment as-is. I did run into a recycler who wanted top dollar for their product, because they thought that I was cheating them. They knew which machines were being picked up for my personal collection, and which machines were being sold to cover my costs. In the end they would usually give the equipment to me at a good price, sans a couple of items. There is one bit of irony: they never took out items which I was planning to sell. Other places were quite good though because we had a simple understanding: once the cash was on the counter, the equipment was my problem. They would never see it nor hear about it again. They didn't have the ability nor the desire to support whiny customers, and they were willing to accept that they were not going to receive top dollar because of that. Listening to some of their stories about whiny customers also helped. :) Byron. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 14 17:47:56 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 22:47:56 +0000 Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BEC@sbs.jdfogg.com> <1121362762.27179.60.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1121381276.27159.141.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-14 at 18:29 -0400, Ronald Wayne wrote: > On 7/14/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Yep, one of my local recyclers is like that. I think they assume that > > anyone who appears to be knowledgeable about what they have is > > immediately going to take their junk and make a fortune selling it. > > Their job is recycling goods. They rarely want to spend the time or > money to sort through the equipment properly, test it, clean it up, > track down customers, and support it if something goes wrong after the > fact. Absolutely - which is why it's frustrating when they won't sell in bulk to someone who'll pay a little over scrap value and haul away a big pile of 80's junk at a time, say. I think the mentality is that they *might* miss out on something good that way, and so even though they don't understand the classic scene at all they rather see the whole lot scrapped than for someone else to take it off them. Bloody annoying :-( Grrr - *people* !! ;) cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 14 17:42:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Ronald Wayne wrote: > Listening to some of their stories about whiny customers also helped. :) In general, this is a good way to get into the good graces of anyone: listen to their boring (or not) stories. The best way to get someone to like you is to let them blab on about themselves to you. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 14 17:42:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:42:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: <1121370617.27159.82.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 14, 5 07:50:17 pm Message-ID: > The current owner was also told that it uses a Z8000 CPU, but I'm > reasonably confident that it'll turn out to be a Natsemi 32016 like the > other Whitechapel machines... Well, the MG1 uses a 32016, but IIRC the Hitec series use MIPS R2000 processors. I ahev no idea what the CG2000 used -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 18:04:46 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:04:46 -0500 Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/14/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > In general, this is a good way to get into the good graces of anyone: > listen to their boring (or not) stories. The best way to get someone to > like you is to let them blab on about themselves to you. So lemme tell you about the time I... ;-) -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 14 17:46:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:46:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: IDE hard drive on original IBM AT? In-Reply-To: from "Richard Beaudry" at Jul 14, 5 04:07:10 pm Message-ID: > > Hello all, > > I have two "true-blue" IBM ATs, both the early motherboard revision. > I have the following questions: > > - Is it possible to use an IDE hard drive instead of MFM? I have > tried several different drive/controller combos, and nothing works so > far :-( . The drives are small ( < 100 MB), so it's not a geometry > issue (at least, I don't think so :-) ) > > - Is anyone running an early rev. AT with an IDE drive? How did you do it? :-) Alas I am running a later motherboard version here (8MHz clock), but I had no problems plugging in a combined floppy and IDE hard disk controller card and linking it to an IDE drive. There were 2 things I did to get it 'right' although neither were essential. One was to overlay the top 8K of the system ROMs with EPROMs (this was a minor motherboard mod) so I could have a more suitable geometry. The other was to add a kludgeboard (a few TTL chips) to the IDE controller to operate the drive-in-use LED on the front of the machine. The IDE drive I used didn't have an obvious output for this. The IDE interface was designed to be software-compatible with the IBM PC/AT hard disk controller card, so there shouldn't be problems. Note I said 'shouldn't', not 'won't'. What exactly happens when you replace the MFM controller with the IDE one? -tony From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Jul 14 18:18:00 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:18:00 +0100 Subject: KDJ-11 PDP11/73 digrams needed Message-ID: <00a901c588ca$46f8a9c0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi, while repairing some 11/73's at work yesterday, I ended up with two gaulty KDJ11 processor cards, one has not TX data from the SLU, and the other doesn't talk to the rear panel 7-segment displays. The company policy is to replace the CPU, and scrap the u/s unit. I suspect the faults are fairly trivial, and am looking for a circuit diagram of the KDJ11 so that I can have a go at repairing them. Can anyone point me to an online source? Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Jul 14 18:25:01 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:25:01 +0100 Subject: Making an XXDP boot disk on an RX02 Message-ID: <00af01c588cb$42779900$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi, I have recently added an RX02 to my 11/23+ system, and was trying to make an XXDP bootable floppy, but havae had no success. I can write files to the drive, and read them back, but can't boot. The process I used (in UPDAT) was: ZERO DY0: CREATE DY0: then copy all *.sys files, plus UPDAT and HELP to the disk ( I have a TU58 image with these files on that will boot fine, using the TU58 emulator). I tried copying the files with both FILE and PIP, but when I use either the UPDAT BOOT command, or key in a bootstrap, the proceesor halts at address 000016 (I think this indicates a trap on halt). Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong.......... Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jul 14 18:29:36 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:29:36 -0400 Subject: KDJ11 eproms / M7554-PB conversion? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:31:25 CDT." Message-ID: <200507142329.j6ENTbv5006387@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > >I have a board that Jon modded for me, so I have confidence in his >instructions. I'm curious what board/rev you have that would be >different than the one described. I have an M7554-PB. It has 27C256's and the layout is not the same as what he described. -brad From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 14 18:29:38 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:29:38 -0700 Subject: IDE hard drive on original IBM AT? Message-ID: <42D6F562.BA170ECE@rain.org> I haven't tried using an IDE drive with a real IBM AT, but I suspect it will not be plug and play! The original BIOS supports 15 predefined drive types and I don't remember any user defined settings. You might try something like "Disk Manager" or other such utilities. IIRC, they can allow larger than the 32 MB partition sizes and I *think* will allow settings other than what IBM provided. > I have two "true-blue" IBM ATs, both the early motherboard revision. > I have the following questions: > > - Is it possible to use an IDE hard drive instead of MFM? I have > tried several different drive/controller combos, and nothing works so > far :-( . The drives are small ( < 100 MB), so it's not a geometry > issue (at least, I don't think so :-) ) From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Jul 14 18:37:54 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:37:54 -0400 Subject: Plain Old Crazy In-Reply-To: <20050714134422.37032.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050714134422.37032.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42D6F752.nail3UL11W6TO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Actually, this is a somewhat uncommon German Apple ][ clone. What is most bizarre is his insistence (based on some web page he claims he read) that it is a real Apple ][. I mean, we all know people whose reality is distorted, but this guy seems to be taking it further than most in his insistence that he is right on this particular point. Tim. From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jul 14 19:27:59 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:27:59 -0400 Subject: KDJ11 eproms / M7554-PB conversion? In-Reply-To: <200507142116.j6ELGunG000751@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200507142116.j6ELGunG000751@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <42D7030F.7030501@mdrconsult.com> Brad Parker wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone have direct experience replacing the eproms in a M7554-PB? > > The top layer says "CPU KDJ11-D". It's s-box and is labeled M7554-PB. > > The eproms are 27C256's. I want to replace them with 23-261E5 and > 23-262E5 images (16k, or 27C128) to turn the board into (hopefully) a > PDP-11/53. > > I managed to erase two 27C128's and burn them this morning but I discovered > that the instructions I found on the web > > http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl/KDJ11.htm > > don't match my board (very nice instructions, none the less - thanks!) > > I may just try it and see what happens, or reprogram the 27C256's with > the image doubled, just for fun. I just finished the board mod on an M7554-DS a month ago, and have it running (Well, I'm out of state and it's powered down, but it ran most of last week...) Mine is the later layout, which is what all of the diagrams and pictures on that page represent. Note that for both board styles, you have to add a 1K resistor to enable the new ROMs. On yours you'll also need to clip a zero-ohm resistor. Your board is listed as the older artwork, and there aren't pictures, but a description of what you need to do: "On the older artwork a similar mod is required, except you also have to cut out a zero-ohm jumper. I don't have a picture yet, but, holding the board with the backplane connector to the right and the front edge to the left, and the ROMs at the bottom: the pads for the resistor are to the left of the ROMs, and the zero ohm jumper is just above it. If you are need to do this before I get the picture drawn, trace the circuit from pin 27 of the ROM with an ohmeter." If you can scan your CPU board (at a decent resolution, I'd be glad to see if I can match a location to that description and mark where the work needs doing. I'm also probably not he only one who'd be willing to look at it for you. Doc From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 14 19:38:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay In-Reply-To: <1121381276.27159.141.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Absolutely - which is why it's frustrating when they won't sell in bulk > to someone who'll pay a little over scrap value and haul away a big pile > of 80's junk at a time, say. I think the mentality is that they *might* > miss out on something good that way, and so even though they don't > understand the classic scene at all they rather see the whole lot > scrapped than for someone else to take it off them. Bloody annoying :-( Ok, to that end I have two pallets of Macs from the Mac II era through the Quadra and into the PowerMac era. These are scrap to me. Does anyone want them for the cost of freight plus some reimbursement for my time? If you want me to get a list I will but then that will only add to the time it takes me, which means more reimbursement :") Let me know. I'm sure there's good stuff on there for someone. FOB Livermore, California -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From appleto at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 19:44:44 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:44:44 -0400 Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/14/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > In general, this is a good way to get into the good graces of anyone: > listen to their boring (or not) stories. Well, I worked in a thrift store for a while so it is rather easy to be sympathetic with their stories. Thankfully I don't have many boring (or not) stories to bore people. Byron. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 14 19:45:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Plain Old Crazy In-Reply-To: <42D6F752.nail3UL11W6TO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Actually, this is a somewhat uncommon German Apple ][ clone. > > What is most bizarre is his insistence (based on some web page > he claims he read) that it is a real Apple ][. > > I mean, we all know people whose reality is distorted, but this > guy seems to be taking it further than most in his insistence that > he is right on this particular point. What are you gonna do...this is eBay we're talking about. Anyway, I should clarify my statement above, re: an "uncommon" machine. According to Hans it's actually quite common in Germany, and was the first licensed Apple ][ clone in Germany. It actually was a modded Revision 7 motherboard, not yet the Europlus motherboard. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jul 14 20:18:20 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:18:20 -0500 Subject: Open-ended Apple "collection" on eBay In-Reply-To: <1121364793.27179.68.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1121364793.27179.68.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050714201820.14da534a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:13:13 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-07-14 at 13:51 -0400, chris wrote: > > >Yep, one of my local recyclers is like that. I think they assume > > >that anyone who appears to be knowledgeable about what they have is > > >immediately going to take their junk and make a fortune selling it. > > >Tell them that it's worthless in financial terms and they think > > >you're lying; tell them that you absolutely will not sell it on and > > >they still think you're lying. I haven't figured out a way of > > >dealing with that class of people yet :-( > > > > Bring your SO along, pretend to spot the item and say "Oh look > > honey, this is just like the we were using when > > we met". Then have your SO say "Oh, we simply MUST buy it" > > > > Then offer the guy 50% of what you really are willing to pay for it. > > > > Watch the dollar signs roll in his eyes as you haggle your way up to > > the amount you were willing to pay. > > Heh :) That probably only works once for one item though - I'm not > sure of a good strategy for the situations where they get piles of > retro stuff every week given to them and they just scrap it for gold > value. > You revise the script slightly. She says 'that looks just like the big pile of equipment in your apartment when we met. . .' From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jul 14 20:23:34 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:23:34 -0500 Subject: IDE hard drive on original IBM AT? In-Reply-To: <42D6F562.BA170ECE@rain.org> References: <42D6F562.BA170ECE@rain.org> Message-ID: <20050714202334.64188c1a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:29:38 -0700 Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I haven't tried using an IDE drive with a real IBM AT, but I suspect > it will not be plug and play! The original BIOS supports 15 predefined > drive types and I don't remember any user defined settings. You might > try something like "Disk Manager" or other such utilities. IIRC, they > can allow larger than the 32 MB partition sizes and I *think* will > allow settings other than what IBM provided. > Depending on how much you want to mess around with the BIOS, there are utilties out there that let you patch in whatever drive geometry you want into a BIOS binary and reburn a new EPROM. I used that ages ago when I had a 20 MHz '286 motherboard and wanted to use an oddball hard drive geometry in it. The process does involve buring a new EPROM, though. And I don't remember the name of the utility, but that it was some common tool off a shareware CDROM collection (this was pre-internet) so it's probabably physically out there on CDs. From charlesmorris at direcway.com Thu Jul 14 21:34:31 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:34:31 -0500 Subject: Tape punch Message-ID: I'd posted here a while ago looking for info on a Tally 420PR tape punch and have built a driver board to interface it to a PDP-8A. But there is a problem with consistent punching/feeding (the result is often a longitudinal tear instead of holes) even with the pulse widths set to the recommended 4.5 ms +- 0.5 ms, -24 volts, and the feed mechanism intermittently binds up too. Currently I'm running it with only the sprocket and feed drivers hooked up, and simulated punch commands from a 555 timer, so the result should be continuously feeding tape with just sprocket holes punched in it. I suspect the problem is that the feed pulse starts immediately on the falling edge of the punch pulse, so the pin hasn't cleared the tape as the feed mechanism starts to move. It also tends to stick in that position with the tape not moving (you can hear the solenoids buzzing but the feed sprocket is not moving until tweaked backwards a few degrees by hand). According to the schematic, the escapement solenoid (which allows the tape to feed one row per pulse) is supposed to be actuated internally by contacts on the feed solenoid so there shouldn't be a timing issue there. Does anyone have more info on this punch model, or experience with these asynchronous mechanisms in general? Is there a requirement for a delay between punching the holes and pulsing the feed solenoid? How long does it take for the pins to move up or down after drive is applied/removed? thanks Charles From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Thu Jul 14 22:43:35 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rescued: Data General Nova Boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4980.68.6.79.45.1121399015.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> Hi, I was at my local uni surplus today (UC Santa Barbara) and found, buried in a bin of random industrial parts from the chem lab, some Data General Nova boards. Here's what I found, if anyone would like to help me identify them further: These boards are 15 x 15 inches: 107-000187-12X Disk Cartridge Controller, DGC Nova 107-000007-02 DGC Nova Extender Board (quantity 2, one with gouged traces) 107-000055-03 DGC D-A Converter Scope Control Card Reader 107-000054-02 DGC General Purpose Interface 107-000151-17-16 DGC Nova Cassette I/O 107-000094-00 DG Nova Compatible Wiring Board (quantity 2) D-10632-01 Data Channel Linc Tape, CO3000N Option 008 The wiring boards look to be prototyping boards, they are half filled with soldered sockets and hand-wired components. These boards are 6.5 x 3.25 inches, and have no obvious plug connectors: 107-000008-01 DGC (no other writing, quantity 2) These look like prototyping boards also, with rows for sockets and wire wrap posts on either side. Each has different components wired up. I don't have any DG stuff, and it's unlikely I'm going to acquire one in the near future (still working on my Sun 2/120), so eventually these will go to someone else. I'll be leaving Sunday on a trip until Aug 10th, but I'll try to take some photos of the boards tomorrow or Saturday (if anyone is interested in them). Jeff From fernande at internet1.net Thu Jul 14 22:49:40 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:49:40 -0400 Subject: Plain Old Crazy In-Reply-To: <42D6F752.nail3UL11W6TO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20050714134422.37032.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <42D6F752.nail3UL11W6TO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <42D73254.2090608@internet1.net> Tim, I too found it quite bizarre, but then I think I figured it out...... He's using the term "Apple //" like a person might use the designation "PC". A Dell, a Compaq, an HP, a whatever, are all PC's. In other words, he's using "Apple //" as a type or kind, not a brand. Like what people, at least in the US, do with Kleenex, or Scotch Tape, or Crescent Wrenchs Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Tim Shoppa wrote: > What is most bizarre is his insistence (based on some web page > he claims he read) that it is a real Apple ][. > > I mean, we all know people whose reality is distorted, but this > guy seems to be taking it further than most in his insistence that > he is right on this particular point. > > Tim. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Thu Jul 14 23:20:01 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:20:01 -0700 Subject: Motorola MC6800 design kit Message-ID: <091901c588f4$85961350$0300a8c0@downstairs2> I am looking for a good picture of the 1975 Motorola MC6800 design package. This has the MC6800 IC family mounted in foam covered with plastic.. (The MC6800, MC6810, MC6820, MC6850, and MIKBUG ROM.) This came with data books but I just want a picture of the chips on the card. One of these was sold on eBay a year or so ago and someone on this list got it. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 15 00:58:28 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 22:58:28 -0700 Subject: Rescued: Data General Nova Boards Message-ID: > D-10632-01 Data Channel Linc Tape, CO3000N Option 008 Jay West is probably the only person on the planet that would have a use for that. Tom Jennings is nearby, and may want the other boards. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 15 01:09:28 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:09:28 -0700 Subject: Tape punch Message-ID: <3203af6315ba12850d4736f536659488@bitsavers.org> I'd posted here a while ago looking for info on a Tally 420PR tape punch -- I just put three different 420 manuals up at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/tally From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Fri Jul 15 01:48:44 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (birs23 at zeelandnet.nl) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:48:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Complete TI-990 In-Reply-To: <200507142329.j6ENTbv5006387@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Your message of "Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:31:25 CDT." <200507142329.j6ENTbv5006387@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <54427.127.0.0.1.1121410124.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Someone is offering a very complete Texas Instrument 990 system, thought someone here might be interested. I have nothing to do with the ad though. http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/classifieds_1_3/index.php?list=advertisement&method=showdetails&rollid=227 From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Fri Jul 15 03:16:09 2005 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 02:16:09 -0600 Subject: Rescued: Data General Nova Boards References: <4980.68.6.79.45.1121399015.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> Message-ID: <05d601c58915$75528cf0$367cfea9@newhare> G'day Jeff - Our our expanding Data General museum has been promised a Nova 2 system that is currently in Mexico which has a COI Linctape system. The computer was working until several years ago in a production control facility, and the D-10632 board might be just the thing to help us restore this promised COI unit. Bruce bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Davis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 9:43 PM Subject: Rescued: Data General Nova Boards > Hi, I was at my local uni surplus today (UC Santa Barbara) and found, buried > in a bin of random industrial parts from the chem lab, some Data General Nova > boards. Here's what I found, if anyone would like to help me identify them > further: > > These boards are 15 x 15 inches: > > 107-000187-12X Disk Cartridge Controller, DGC Nova > 107-000007-02 DGC Nova Extender Board (quantity 2, one with gouged traces) > 107-000055-03 DGC D-A Converter Scope Control Card Reader > 107-000054-02 DGC General Purpose Interface > 107-000151-17-16 DGC Nova Cassette I/O > 107-000094-00 DG Nova Compatible Wiring Board (quantity 2) > D-10632-01 Data Channel Linc Tape, CO3000N Option 008 > > The wiring boards look to be prototyping boards, they are half filled with > soldered sockets and hand-wired components. > > These boards are 6.5 x 3.25 inches, and have no obvious plug connectors: > > 107-000008-01 DGC (no other writing, quantity 2) > These look like prototyping boards also, with rows for sockets and wire wrap > posts on either side. Each has different components wired up. > > I don't have any DG stuff, and it's unlikely I'm going to acquire one in the > near future (still working on my Sun 2/120), so eventually these will go to > someone else. I'll be leaving Sunday on a trip until Aug 10th, but I'll try > to take some photos of the boards tomorrow or Saturday (if anyone is > interested in them). > > Jeff > From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Fri Jul 15 04:37:13 2005 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:37:13 +0200 Subject: ...still looking for MS-Fortran for ANY DOS puter In-Reply-To: <20050714065118.59947.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050714065118.59947.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42D783C9.5090104@ais.fraunhofer.de> Chris M wrote: >I may have posted this request...plea...on cctech some >time ago. I've been looking for an early Microsoft >Fortran compiler for eons. Vanilla DOS version would >be fine, but for something exotic like the Tandy 2000 >or Zenith Z-100 would be exquisite. I was fortunate to >obtain, oo, MS-COBOL recently, and to my amazement I >managed to WinImage the disks. Version 2.0 or >something. > If any of you weren't aware, the earliest versions of >Turbo Pascal and Turbo C are available for download on >the Borland Museum. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > Hi, I guess with anonymous "Chris M" with a throw-away yahoo address not many people have many trust in handing out copies of software to you. This software is admittedly obsolete by far, but is still copyrighted by Microsoft. What Borland does with their obsolete software is their personal preference, and is not transferable to other companies. Personal suggestion: look into emule/edonkey P2P networks for a key [Dos Application], and don't tell anyone what you might see, and never ask here again. Holger From aaron at ndwsfc.org.au Fri Jul 15 04:46:44 2005 From: aaron at ndwsfc.org.au (Aaron Brockbank) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:46:44 +1000 Subject: Anything on Bigboard II? In-Reply-To: <200507142234.j6EMYJAu060282@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42D812A4.30415.7C3E970@localhost> Hello, all. As a recent purchaser of the Ferguson Bigboard II, I find that it's without any kind of documentation. Is there anything available anywhere for this? >From reading back issues of EA and ETI here in Australia, this was first released here in November of 1983, by (the now defunct, I believe) Ritronics (aka Rod Irving Electronics) of Melbourne. The board is marked with "(c)1982 J. Ferguson" and makes no mention of Digital Research Computers, or Cal-Tex. I've read that the BB II was the basis for the Xerox 820, but the schematics that I've been able to locate for the 820 are nothing like what's on the BB II. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me with this. Aaron (from the land downunder) From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Jul 15 07:39:42 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:39:42 -0400 Subject: Solid State Music V1B question Message-ID: All: I'm playing around with the SSM V1B video board in my Altair, and I have a question about errata and board modifications, specifically with regards to the +12v power supply. I have three boards. One is "condition unknown" and two are working. The +12v regulated supply consists of a small-value series resistor, a zener diode and a cap. One of the boards has a 100 ohm, 1/4w resistor which is charred and when operated, continues to smell. The other working board has a 220 ohm resistor and the same zener diode and appears to work fine with no smell. The manual specifies a 100 ohm resistor and a 1N4742 diode. The "condition unknown" board has a 7812 regulator soldered to the pads replacing the resistor and the diode. From what I can tell from the schematic, the +12v is used only for the character generator chip. When turned on, I get a display full of well-formed garbage, which is probably just that it's displaying the random data in buffer memory. Does anyone have a view on what the best kind of repair might be? Thanks. Rich From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jul 15 07:55:17 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:55:17 -0400 Subject: Solid State Music V1B question Message-ID: <0IJO00MCK6JIOYA3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Solid State Music V1B question > From: "Cini, Richard" > Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:39:42 -0400 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > >All: > > > > I'm playing around with the SSM V1B video board in my Altair, >and I have a question about errata and board modifications, specifically >with regards to the +12v power supply. > > > >I have three boards. One is "condition unknown" and two are working. The >+12v regulated supply consists of a small-value series resistor, a zener >diode and a cap. One of the boards has a 100 ohm, 1/4w resistor which is >charred and when operated, continues to smell. The other working board has a >220 ohm resistor and the same zener diode and appears to work fine with no >smell. The manual specifies a 100 ohm resistor and a 1N4742 diode. > > > >The "condition unknown" board has a 7812 regulator soldered to the pads >replacing the resistor and the diode. From what I can tell from the >schematic, the +12v is used only for the character generator chip. When >turned on, I get a display full of well-formed garbage, which is probably >just that it's displaying the random data in buffer memory. > > > >Does anyone have a view on what the best kind of repair might be? > > > > Thanks. > Rich, The best fix is the three terminal regulator. The resistor and zener diode works well but the correct value of resistor is dependent on the raw 12+ volt power on the S100 buss. Since I've seen that bus run from barely 15V (marginal for three terminal regulator) to as high as 22V the right resistor varies greatly. I'd speculate (I don't know which character rom) on the required 12V power needs that the 100ohm is plainly too low and maybe 220 is right. If the resistor is too low the Zener diode will overheat and if too high the regulation is poor. Zener diodes have power ratings like many parts and if exceeded they fail. Using a three terminal regulator eliminates a lot of guessing. Allison From bernd at kopriva.de Fri Jul 15 08:02:25 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:02:25 +0200 Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: <1121370617.27159.82.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050715114121.AD28039546@linux.local> Hi Jules, do you really want to keep it ???? :) ... ... otherwise, i will take it with open arms ! Ciao Bernd On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:50:17 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > >I've been offered one of these - anyone know anything about them? Google >seems reluctant to divulge any info... > >We've got three Whitechapel MG-1 machines so I pounced on this one as a >different example of the Whitechapel line - but I've been unable to find >any info on it so far. > >As the MG-200 is appears to be a faster version of the MG-1, I'm >assuming that the CG-200 is a variant on the MG-200 (likely with better >video ability). > >The current owner was also told that it uses a Z8000 CPU, but I'm >reasonably confident that it'll turn out to be a Natsemi 32016 like the >other Whitechapel machines... > >We've got a few manuals for the MG-1, so hopefully it's similar enough >that the docs will be relevant! > >cheers > >Jules > > > Bernd Kopriva Phone: ++49-7195-179452 Weilerstr. 24 E-Mail: bernd at kopriva.de D-71397 Leutenbach Germany From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Jul 15 08:06:47 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:06:47 -0400 Subject: Solid State Music V1B question Message-ID: The 1N4742 is a 1w part which at 12 volts is well within the amperage ratings of a 7812. That's the way I'm going to go. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 8:55 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Solid State Music V1B question > >Subject: Solid State Music V1B question > From: "Cini, Richard" > Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:39:42 -0400 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > >All: > > > > I'm playing around with the SSM V1B video board in my Altair, >and I have a question about errata and board modifications, specifically >with regards to the +12v power supply. > > > >I have three boards. One is "condition unknown" and two are working. The >+12v regulated supply consists of a small-value series resistor, a zener >diode and a cap. One of the boards has a 100 ohm, 1/4w resistor which is >charred and when operated, continues to smell. The other working board has a >220 ohm resistor and the same zener diode and appears to work fine with no >smell. The manual specifies a 100 ohm resistor and a 1N4742 diode. > > > >The "condition unknown" board has a 7812 regulator soldered to the pads >replacing the resistor and the diode. From what I can tell from the >schematic, the +12v is used only for the character generator chip. When >turned on, I get a display full of well-formed garbage, which is probably >just that it's displaying the random data in buffer memory. > > > >Does anyone have a view on what the best kind of repair might be? > > > > Thanks. > Rich, The best fix is the three terminal regulator. The resistor and zener diode works well but the correct value of resistor is dependent on the raw 12+ volt power on the S100 buss. Since I've seen that bus run from barely 15V (marginal for three terminal regulator) to as high as 22V the right resistor varies greatly. I'd speculate (I don't know which character rom) on the required 12V power needs that the 100ohm is plainly too low and maybe 220 is right. If the resistor is too low the Zener diode will overheat and if too high the regulation is poor. Zener diodes have power ratings like many parts and if exceeded they fail. Using a three terminal regulator eliminates a lot of guessing. Allison From allain at panix.com Fri Jul 15 08:14:02 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:14:02 -0400 Subject: FREE MACINTOSH PLUS. / Pallettes / etc. References: <200507081814.OAA17800@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <003e01c5893f$12c6f1a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Since we're talking about macs right now (VCM included) I'll just mention that I have about 4 or 5 machines in the NY/NJ/CT area that I could give away, many types. My belief is that everybody wanting used Macs has them by now. if not, pls contact and I'll make up a list. John A. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 15 08:37:15 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:37:15 +0000 Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: <20050715114121.AD28039546@linux.local> References: <20050715114121.AD28039546@linux.local> Message-ID: <1121434635.28978.10.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-15 at 15:02 +0200, Bernd Kopriva wrote: > Hi Jules, > do you really want to keep it ???? :) ... > ... otherwise, i will take it with open arms ! Heh - I'm glad someone's heard of it! MG-1 machines are reasonably hard to get, but this is the first time I've seen anything else from Whitechapel. I think I'll be picking it up sometime next week. If my assumption that it's a MG-200 with better video, and that the MG-200 is just an MG-1 with a faster CPU is correct, then hopefully they share the same OS code. I've got no idea what state the machine's in or how complete it is. As far as I know it was given to the current owner in working condition, which hopefully means it has display, keyboard, and a hard disk in it - we'll see! (It seemed important to save it quickly and worry about things like that later :-) cheers Jules From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jul 15 09:25:29 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:25:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Solid State Music V1B question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507151427.KAA00977@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The 1N4742 is a 1w part which at 12 volts is well within the amperage > ratings of a 7812. Except that those are different values. The 1W dissipated by a zener is the power that _isn't_ going through the load. The rating of a 7812 is power that _is_ going through the load. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 15 10:41:33 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:41:33 -0400 Subject: Goodnight, OS/2... Message-ID: <200507151549.j6FFnxJS087771@keith.ezwind.net> http://www-306.ibm.com/fcgi-bin/common/ssi/ssialias?infotype=an&subtype=ca&a ppname=Demonstration&htmlfid=897/ENUS905-163 Or for minimalists: http://tinyurl.com/acbp2 ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 760 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Jul 15 10:47:19 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:47:19 -0400 Subject: Goodnight, OS/2... Message-ID: OK, the inevitable Slashdot-type question...when will IBM open license OS/2 (if at all)? There have been calls for this for years before IBM finally nailed the coffin shut. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 11:42 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Goodnight, OS/2... http://www-306.ibm.com/fcgi-bin/common/ssi/ssialias?infotype=an&subtype=ca&a ppname=Demonstration&htmlfid=897/ENUS905-163 Or for minimalists: http://tinyurl.com/acbp2 ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 760 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From bernd at kopriva.de Fri Jul 15 11:00:56 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:00:56 +0200 Subject: Goodnight, OS/2... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050715144055.A1A4A39546@linux.local> I believe, that this will never happen due to licensing issues especially with Microsoft and others ... ... yes, it's a bad day ! Bernd On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:47:19 -0400, Cini, Richard wrote: > > >OK, the inevitable Slashdot-type question...when will IBM open license OS/2 >(if at all)? There have been calls for this for years before IBM finally >nailed the coffin shut. > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' >Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 11:42 AM >To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >Subject: Goodnight, OS/2... > >http://www-306.ibm.com/fcgi-bin/common/ssi/ssialias?infotype=an&subtype=ca&a >ppname=Demonstration&htmlfid=897/ENUS905-163 > >Or for minimalists: http://tinyurl.com/acbp2 > > >----------------------------------------- >Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net >Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ >Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm > >*** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter >- 760 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! >- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all >- W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 15 11:07:49 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:07:49 -0500 Subject: M9312 boot rom ID help? Message-ID: <000b01c58957$5a572db0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I have a few boot roms in a 9312 bootstrap terminator that I can't identify. The manual lists most boot roms, but these particular ones are not listed in the manual I have. Anyone know? 760A9 - PR - PC05 (this one I could find in the docs) 786A9 no clue 788A9 no clue 787A9 no clue I'm hoping one of them is an RL02 rom :\ Jay West From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 15 11:11:03 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:11:03 -0400 Subject: Goodnight, OS/2... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507151619.j6FGJPGY088038@keith.ezwind.net> I've got an IBM media relations guy checking on that. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cini, Richard Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 11:47 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Goodnight, OS/2... OK, the inevitable Slashdot-type question...when will IBM open license OS/2 (if at all)? There have been calls for this for years before IBM finally nailed the coffin shut. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 11:42 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Goodnight, OS/2... http://www-306.ibm.com/fcgi-bin/common/ssi/ssialias?infotype=an&subtype=ca&a ppname=Demonstration&htmlfid=897/ENUS905-163 Or for minimalists: http://tinyurl.com/acbp2 ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 760 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From tony.eros at machm.org Fri Jul 15 11:21:36 2005 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:21:36 -0400 Subject: Swap offer - vintage computers for a boat In-Reply-To: <200507151619.j6FGJPGY088038@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050715162202.9C27D38133@smtp02.dc2.safesecureweb.com> I have a unique problem. No, not that one -- this one... I want a boat. A nice little bowrider so I can take the family out on the Chesapeake. Problem is, my wife says I can't have any new toys until I do something about the ones that are taking up so much space around the house, basement, garage, and storage barn. Namely, my vintage computers. So, in the spirit of "kill two birds with one stone", I had a flash of insight, or perhaps a mild stroke. Is there anyone on the list with a boat they're not using that would be interested in trading it for some vintage iron? Possibilities include: IBM 1130 DEC PDP-11/45 Xerox 6035 DEC Edusystem (11/34 with dual RK05 & TU10 tape) IBM 5120 These systems are in Delaware. I figure, it couldn't hurt to ask... -- Tony From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Fri Jul 15 11:29:07 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:29:07 -0400 Subject: Swap offer - vintage computers for a boat In-Reply-To: <20050715162202.9C27D38133@smtp02.dc2.safesecureweb.com> References: <20050715162202.9C27D38133@smtp02.dc2.safesecureweb.com> Message-ID: <7B166BAA-5BC8-48E6-8F59-A96430EB3263@xlisper.mv.com> I've got a canoe. Will that do? :-) On Jul 15, 2005, at 12:21 PM, Tony Eros wrote: > I have a unique problem. No, not that one -- this one... > > I want a boat. A nice little bowrider so I can take the family out > on the > Chesapeake. Problem is, my wife says I can't have any new toys > until I do > something about the ones that are taking up so much space around > the house, > basement, garage, and storage barn. Namely, my vintage computers. > > So, in the spirit of "kill two birds with one stone", I had a flash of > insight, or perhaps a mild stroke. Is there anyone on the list > with a boat > they're not using that would be interested in trading it for some > vintage > iron? Possibilities include: > > IBM 1130 > DEC PDP-11/45 > Xerox 6035 > DEC Edusystem (11/34 with dual RK05 & TU10 tape) > IBM 5120 > > These systems are in Delaware. > > I figure, it couldn't hurt to ask... > > -- Tony > > > > > > From jim.isbell at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 11:35:52 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:35:52 -0500 Subject: Swap offer - vintage computers for a boat In-Reply-To: <20050715162202.9C27D38133@smtp02.dc2.safesecureweb.com> References: <200507151619.j6FGJPGY088038@keith.ezwind.net> <20050715162202.9C27D38133@smtp02.dc2.safesecureweb.com> Message-ID: I have a boat. Its a twin Diesel, 28' long, nice fiberglass boat. One engine has less than an hour of run time the other is a pull from a Suburban and needs to have the exhaust fitted and installed into the boat. Its on a Galvanized dual axel trailer with four brand new tires. The interior sleeps 4 and has a head and a galley. The interior is in nice shape. It needs the engine reinstalled, the rudders and props reinstalled (included with the boat) and needs the steering hooked up. Weighs about 8,000 lbs plus the trailer. You can have it if you come get it. I dont really need any computers but if you have some small stuff or some Ham gear I would take that in trade. On 7/15/05, Tony Eros wrote: > I have a unique problem. No, not that one -- this one... > > I want a boat. A nice little bowrider so I can take the family out on the > Chesapeake. Problem is, my wife says I can't have any new toys until I do > something about the ones that are taking up so much space around the house, > basement, garage, and storage barn. Namely, my vintage computers. > > So, in the spirit of "kill two birds with one stone", I had a flash of > insight, or perhaps a mild stroke. Is there anyone on the list with a boat > they're not using that would be interested in trading it for some vintage > iron? Possibilities include: > > IBM 1130 > DEC PDP-11/45 > Xerox 6035 > DEC Edusystem (11/34 with dual RK05 & TU10 tape) > IBM 5120 > > These systems are in Delaware. > > I figure, it couldn't hurt to ask... > > -- Tony > > > > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From jim.isbell at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 11:37:30 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:37:30 -0500 Subject: Swap offer - vintage computers for a boat In-Reply-To: References: <200507151619.j6FGJPGY088038@keith.ezwind.net> <20050715162202.9C27D38133@smtp02.dc2.safesecureweb.com> Message-ID: Hey, I just threw a canoe in the trash...its yours for the taking.....South Texas. On 7/15/05, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > I have a boat. Its a twin Diesel, 28' long, nice fiberglass boat. One > engine has less than an hour of run time the other is a pull from a > Suburban and needs to have the exhaust fitted and installed into the > boat. Its on a Galvanized dual axel trailer with four brand new > tires. The interior sleeps 4 and has a head and a galley. The > interior is in nice shape. It needs the engine reinstalled, the > rudders and props reinstalled (included with the boat) and needs the > steering hooked up. Weighs about 8,000 lbs plus the trailer. You can > have it if you come get it. I dont really need any computers but if > you have some small stuff or some Ham gear I would take that in trade. > > On 7/15/05, Tony Eros wrote: > > I have a unique problem. No, not that one -- this one... > > > > I want a boat. A nice little bowrider so I can take the family out on the > > Chesapeake. Problem is, my wife says I can't have any new toys until I do > > something about the ones that are taking up so much space around the house, > > basement, garage, and storage barn. Namely, my vintage computers. > > > > So, in the spirit of "kill two birds with one stone", I had a flash of > > insight, or perhaps a mild stroke. Is there anyone on the list with a boat > > they're not using that would be interested in trading it for some vintage > > iron? Possibilities include: > > > > IBM 1130 > > DEC PDP-11/45 > > Xerox 6035 > > DEC Edusystem (11/34 with dual RK05 & TU10 tape) > > IBM 5120 > > > > These systems are in Delaware. > > > > I figure, it couldn't hurt to ask... > > > > -- Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Jim Isbell > "If you are not living on the edge, well then, > you are just taking up too much space." > W5JAI > 1967 UltraVan #257 > 1936 SS-100 (replica) > 1970 E-Type > 1982 XJ6 > 1985 XJS > 1988 XJ40 > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jul 15 11:52:53 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:52:53 -0600 Subject: Swap offer - vintage computers for a boat In-Reply-To: <7B166BAA-5BC8-48E6-8F59-A96430EB3263@xlisper.mv.com> References: <20050715162202.9C27D38133@smtp02.dc2.safesecureweb.com> <7B166BAA-5BC8-48E6-8F59-A96430EB3263@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <42D7E9E5.2070201@jetnet.ab.ca> David Betz wrote: > I've got a canoe. Will that do? :-) > That is only good for a PDP8 -:) PS. Better bring two boats so you can transport your big iron back. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jul 15 12:07:28 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Solid State Music V1B question Message-ID: <200507151707.KAA29883@clulw009.amd.com> Hi The typical rail voltage is around 18 volts some place. This should be on the order of 1/3 watt someplace for the resistor. The 1/4W resistor is way too small. I'd tend to think that you might be better with the 220 ohm resistor. The diode of 1W is a maximum of 83 ma. I'd suspect that you only need about 1/10 that much to get reasonable regulation. Even at 15V input, a 1.8K would be enough. One would need to figure how much current the video chip needed, before selecting the right value resistor. Since you have one board with a three terminal regulator, you might add a 10 ohm resistor to the input lead of the regulator to work as a temporary current sensor. The regulator draws some current but it is usually small. Add about 50% to this value and then add 8ma for the diode. From this you should be able to calculate a reasonable dropping resistor. Figure a minimum supply of about 15 volts and then figure the wattage with the 22 volt level. Or, as was suggested, go to a 3 terminal regulator for all. I've seen a number of negative regulators fail, when used under minimum load. I suspect this is actually caused by back current when the supply is turned off. Any filtering capacitors after the regulator may hold longer than the input filter capacitors. This causes significant back current. When using a 3 terminal regulators under a minimum load, as you'll be doing, I suggest that you add a 1N4001, back biased, from the input to the output lead ( for a positive regulator, band on the input lead ). When working for a company doing embedded machines, we saw this problem and we had no more returns after adding the diode. Dwight >From: "Cini, Richard" > >All: > > > > I'm playing around with the SSM V1B video board in my Altair, >and I have a question about errata and board modifications, specifically >with regards to the +12v power supply. > > > >I have three boards. One is "condition unknown" and two are working. The >+12v regulated supply consists of a small-value series resistor, a zener >diode and a cap. One of the boards has a 100 ohm, 1/4w resistor which is >charred and when operated, continues to smell. The other working board has a >220 ohm resistor and the same zener diode and appears to work fine with no >smell. The manual specifies a 100 ohm resistor and a 1N4742 diode. > > > >The "condition unknown" board has a 7812 regulator soldered to the pads >replacing the resistor and the diode. From what I can tell from the >schematic, the +12v is used only for the character generator chip. When >turned on, I get a display full of well-formed garbage, which is probably >just that it's displaying the random data in buffer memory. > > > >Does anyone have a view on what the best kind of repair might be? > > > > Thanks. > > > >Rich > > > > From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 15 12:10:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Swap offer - vintage computers for a boat In-Reply-To: <20050715162202.9C27D38133@smtp02.dc2.safesecureweb.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, Tony Eros wrote: > I have a unique problem. No, not that one -- this one... > > I want a boat. A nice little bowrider so I can take the family out on the > Chesapeake. Problem is, my wife says I can't have any new toys until I do > something about the ones that are taking up so much space around the house, > basement, garage, and storage barn. Namely, my vintage computers. > > So, in the spirit of "kill two birds with one stone", I had a flash of > insight, or perhaps a mild stroke. Is there anyone on the list with a boat > they're not using that would be interested in trading it for some vintage > iron? Possibilities include: > > IBM 1130 Is it complete? > Xerox 6035 Don't you mean 6085? What kind of boat were you hoping for? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Jul 15 12:20:56 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:20:56 -0400 Subject: Solid State Music V1B question Message-ID: Dwight: Thanks. I will add the back-biased diode. Should I also add a small filter at the inout of the regulator or is that not needed since the distance between the source point (buss connector) is fairly close to the regulator? Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 1:07 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Solid State Music V1B question Hi The typical rail voltage is around 18 volts some place. This should be on the order of 1/3 watt someplace for the resistor. The 1/4W resistor is way too small. I'd tend to think that you might be better with the 220 ohm resistor. The diode of 1W is a maximum of 83 ma. I'd suspect that you only need about 1/10 that much to get reasonable regulation. Even at 15V input, a 1.8K would be enough. One would need to figure how much current the video chip needed, before selecting the right value resistor. Since you have one board with a three terminal regulator, you might add a 10 ohm resistor to the input lead of the regulator to work as a temporary current sensor. The regulator draws some current but it is usually small. Add about 50% to this value and then add 8ma for the diode. From this you should be able to calculate a reasonable dropping resistor. Figure a minimum supply of about 15 volts and then figure the wattage with the 22 volt level. Or, as was suggested, go to a 3 terminal regulator for all. I've seen a number of negative regulators fail, when used under minimum load. I suspect this is actually caused by back current when the supply is turned off. Any filtering capacitors after the regulator may hold longer than the input filter capacitors. This causes significant back current. When using a 3 terminal regulators under a minimum load, as you'll be doing, I suggest that you add a 1N4001, back biased, from the input to the output lead ( for a positive regulator, band on the input lead ). When working for a company doing embedded machines, we saw this problem and we had no more returns after adding the diode. Dwight >From: "Cini, Richard" > >All: > > > > I'm playing around with the SSM V1B video board in my Altair, >and I have a question about errata and board modifications, specifically >with regards to the +12v power supply. > > > >I have three boards. One is "condition unknown" and two are working. The >+12v regulated supply consists of a small-value series resistor, a zener >diode and a cap. One of the boards has a 100 ohm, 1/4w resistor which is >charred and when operated, continues to smell. The other working board has a >220 ohm resistor and the same zener diode and appears to work fine with no >smell. The manual specifies a 100 ohm resistor and a 1N4742 diode. > > > >The "condition unknown" board has a 7812 regulator soldered to the pads >replacing the resistor and the diode. From what I can tell from the >schematic, the +12v is used only for the character generator chip. When >turned on, I get a display full of well-formed garbage, which is probably >just that it's displaying the random data in buffer memory. > > > >Does anyone have a view on what the best kind of repair might be? > > > > Thanks. > > > >Rich > > > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jul 15 12:53:55 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Solid State Music V1B question Message-ID: <200507151753.KAA29920@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Richard You most likely won't have any troubles but it is recommended to have a 1uF to 10uF cap at the input lead. These things can oscillate in the 100KHz to 1MHz range. I remember trouble shooting a burn-in board that was running about 20 amperes and going on and off at about 900 KHz. I was surprised that they'd not gotten a visit from the FCC. I guess the antenna was not that effective. I didn't have a radio handy to try but I suspect it would have been noticeable at close range. ( the voltage was 15Volts with about 100 regulators ) Dwight >From: "Cini, Richard" > >Dwight: > > Thanks. I will add the back-biased diode. Should I also add a small >filter at the inout of the regulator or is that not needed since the >distance between the source point (buss connector) is fairly close to the >regulator? > >Rich > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey >Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 1:07 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Solid State Music V1B question > >Hi > The typical rail voltage is around 18 volts some place. This >should be on the order of 1/3 watt someplace for the resistor. >The 1/4W resistor is way too small. I'd tend to think that >you might be better with the 220 ohm resistor. The diode of >1W is a maximum of 83 ma. I'd suspect that you only need about >1/10 that much to get reasonable regulation. Even at 15V >input, a 1.8K would be enough. One would need to figure >how much current the video chip needed, before selecting the >right value resistor. > Since you have one board with a three terminal regulator, >you might add a 10 ohm resistor to the input lead of the >regulator to work as a temporary current sensor. The regulator >draws some current but it is usually small. Add about 50% >to this value and then add 8ma for the diode. From this >you should be able to calculate a reasonable dropping >resistor. Figure a minimum supply of about 15 volts and then >figure the wattage with the 22 volt level. > Or, as was suggested, go to a 3 terminal regulator for all. >I've seen a number of negative regulators fail, when used >under minimum load. I suspect this is actually caused >by back current when the supply is turned off. Any filtering >capacitors after the regulator may hold longer than the >input filter capacitors. This causes significant back current. >When using a 3 terminal regulators under a minimum load, as >you'll be doing, I suggest that you add a 1N4001, back biased, >from the input to the output lead ( for a positive regulator, >band on the input lead ). > When working for a company doing embedded machines, we saw >this problem and we had no more returns after adding the >diode. >Dwight > > >>From: "Cini, Richard" >> >>All: >> >> >> >> I'm playing around with the SSM V1B video board in my Altair, >>and I have a question about errata and board modifications, specifically >>with regards to the +12v power supply. >> >> >> >>I have three boards. One is "condition unknown" and two are working. The >>+12v regulated supply consists of a small-value series resistor, a zener >>diode and a cap. One of the boards has a 100 ohm, 1/4w resistor which is >>charred and when operated, continues to smell. The other working board has >a >>220 ohm resistor and the same zener diode and appears to work fine with no >>smell. The manual specifies a 100 ohm resistor and a 1N4742 diode. >> >> >> >>The "condition unknown" board has a 7812 regulator soldered to the pads >>replacing the resistor and the diode. From what I can tell from the >>schematic, the +12v is used only for the character generator chip. When >>turned on, I get a display full of well-formed garbage, which is probably >>just that it's displaying the random data in buffer memory. >> >> >> >>Does anyone have a view on what the best kind of repair might be? >> >> >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >>Rich >> >> >> >> > > From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 15 13:22:26 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:22:26 -0400 Subject: Panasonic HHC info? In-Reply-To: <200507140252.TAA13126@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200507151831.j6FIVZO3089267@keith.ezwind.net> Still trying to find it... around here somewhere... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 10:53 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Panasonic HHC info? > > I have the main HHC instruction manual. Will scan it once I find it > > (which could take a few days!). > Thanks in advance! Likewise! I will also watch for it. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If ignorance is bliss, shouldn't I be happier? ----------------------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 15 13:30:46 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:30:46 -0700 Subject: M9312 boot rom ID help? Message-ID: 786A9 no clue 788A9 no clue 787A9 no clue please dump these when you get a chance. are you shure they aren't 768A9 et al ? they don't appear in the list at www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECPROMs 23-751A9 is the RL01/02 DL Boot ROM From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jul 15 13:43:41 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:43:41 -0700 Subject: M9312 boot rom ID help? In-Reply-To: <000b01c58957$5a572db0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000b01c58957$5a572db0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200507151143.41999.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 15 July 2005 09:07, Jay West wrote: > I have a few boot roms in a 9312 bootstrap terminator that I can't > identify. The manual lists most boot roms, but these particular ones are > not listed in the manual I have. Anyone know? > > 760A9 - PR - PC05 (this one I could find in the docs) > 786A9 no clue > 788A9 no clue > 787A9 no clue > > I'm hoping one of them is an RL02 rom :\ > > Jay West Have the chips in your M9312 and: Load and Examine 773000, 773200, 773400 and 773600 (for each Prom address): The first three digits: 040=A 041=C 042=D ... 046=M .. 050=P The final 7 bits are ASCII: ex., 60=0 ... 111=I 112=J 113=K 114=l ... 124=T etc. Ex: 042114=DL You should be able to ID any M9312 PROM in this fashion. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Fri Jul 15 13:52:48 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:52:48 -0400 Subject: Panasonic HHC info? In-Reply-To: <200507151831.j6FIVZO3089267@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507151831.j6FIVZO3089267@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <47AE6AE7-E979-449E-9EAD-0D6319951629@xlisper.mv.com> It's online here: http://www.dantiques.com/computers/panasonic/hhc/index.htm It would be nicer to have it in PDF format though. On Jul 15, 2005, at 2:22 PM, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > Still trying to find it... around here somewhere... > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 10:53 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Panasonic HHC info? > > >>> I have the main HHC instruction manual. Will scan it once I find it >>> (which could take a few days!). >>> > > >> Thanks in advance! >> > > Likewise! I will also watch for it. > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/ > ~spectre/ > -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- If ignorance is bliss, shouldn't I be happier? > ----------------------------- > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Jul 15 13:55:50 2005 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:55:50 -0700 Subject: Swap offer - vintage computers for a boat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507151904.j6FJ4sbt089623@keith.ezwind.net> Dang, that's a sweet boat Jim -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Isbell, W5JAI Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 9:38 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Swap offer - vintage computers for a boat Hey, I just threw a canoe in the trash...its yours for the taking.....South Texas. On 7/15/05, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > I have a boat. Its a twin Diesel, 28' long, nice fiberglass boat. One > engine has less than an hour of run time the other is a pull from a > Suburban and needs to have the exhaust fitted and installed into the > boat. Its on a Galvanized dual axel trailer with four brand new > tires. The interior sleeps 4 and has a head and a galley. The > interior is in nice shape. It needs the engine reinstalled, the > rudders and props reinstalled (included with the boat) and needs the > steering hooked up. Weighs about 8,000 lbs plus the trailer. You can > have it if you come get it. I dont really need any computers but if > you have some small stuff or some Ham gear I would take that in trade. > > On 7/15/05, Tony Eros wrote: > > I have a unique problem. No, not that one -- this one... > > > > I want a boat. A nice little bowrider so I can take the family out on the > > Chesapeake. Problem is, my wife says I can't have any new toys until I do > > something about the ones that are taking up so much space around the house, > > basement, garage, and storage barn. Namely, my vintage computers. > > > > So, in the spirit of "kill two birds with one stone", I had a flash of > > insight, or perhaps a mild stroke. Is there anyone on the list with a boat > > they're not using that would be interested in trading it for some vintage > > iron? Possibilities include: > > > > IBM 1130 > > DEC PDP-11/45 > > Xerox 6035 > > DEC Edusystem (11/34 with dual RK05 & TU10 tape) > > IBM 5120 > > > > These systems are in Delaware. > > > > I figure, it couldn't hurt to ask... > > > > -- Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Jim Isbell > "If you are not living on the edge, well then, > you are just taking up too much space." > W5JAI > 1967 UltraVan #257 > 1936 SS-100 (replica) > 1970 E-Type > 1982 XJ6 > 1985 XJS > 1988 XJ40 > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From ken at seefried.com Fri Jul 15 14:23:30 2005 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:23:30 -0400 Subject: Pro-Log "System 2" OS? Message-ID: <20050715192330.23993.qmail@seefried.com> Does anyone have any information about Pro-Logs "System 2" operating system for STD-Bus machines? I've got a i286-based Pro-Log 7892-03 CPU that has a rom labled "SYSTEM 2MODEL 60 BIOS", and a 7171B-02 system support card with a rom labled "SYSTEM 2ROMDISK H". Google hasn't been very helpful, other than to indicate that it existed. Ken From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 15 14:31:25 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:31:25 -0400 Subject: DEC Slides??? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050715153125.00a45be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Anybody want to take a stab at identifing these various DEC slides? . I know this one is from an 11/44 . Warning: Big Files! They're completely unedited and uncropped. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 15 14:34:24 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:34:24 -0400 Subject: Pro-Log "System 2" OS? In-Reply-To: <20050715192330.23993.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050715153424.00a462f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Bug Steve Robertson about this. He has MORE Prolog stuff that the rest of this list put together! But you'll probably have to pester the hell out of Steve to get a reply from him. Joe At 03:23 PM 7/15/05 -0400, you wrote: > >Does anyone have any information about Pro-Logs "System 2" operating system >for STD-Bus machines? I've got a i286-based Pro-Log 7892-03 CPU that has a >rom labled "SYSTEM 2MODEL 60 BIOS", and a 7171B-02 system support card >with a rom labled "SYSTEM 2ROMDISK H". Google hasn't been very helpful, >other than to indicate that it existed. > >Ken > > From allain at panix.com Fri Jul 15 15:54:18 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:54:18 -0400 Subject: DEC Slides??? References: <3.0.6.32.20050715153125.00a45be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <002701c5897f$5f4163e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > various DEC slides? FYI Joe is talking about rack slides here, not transparencies. From ICS at Core.com Fri Jul 15 16:17:29 2005 From: ICS at Core.com (George Wiegand) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:17:29 -0400 Subject: Rescued: Data General Nova Boards References: <4980.68.6.79.45.1121399015.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> Message-ID: <009e01c58982$9c0a1f30$ca84efd1@ics63szde1vn50> For what it's worth, I would be interested in at least the 107-000187-12X Disk Cartridge Controller. I have been trying to get a Nova 3 & 6045 Disk system together for years so the Disk controller would be a great start. ,George Wiegand ICS at Core.com > These boards are 15 x 15 inches: > > 107-000187-12X Disk Cartridge Controller, DGC Nova > 107-000007-02 DGC Nova Extender Board (quantity 2, one with gouged traces) > 107-000055-03 DGC D-A Converter Scope Control Card Reader > 107-000054-02 DGC General Purpose Interface > 107-000151-17-16 DGC Nova Cassette I/O > 107-000094-00 DG Nova Compatible Wiring Board (quantity 2) > D-10632-01 Data Channel Linc Tape, CO3000N Option 008 > > The wiring boards look to be prototyping boards, they are half filled with > soldered sockets and hand-wired components. > > These boards are 6.5 x 3.25 inches, and have no obvious plug connectors: > > 107-000008-01 DGC (no other writing, quantity 2) > These look like prototyping boards also, with rows for sockets and wire wrap > posts on either side. Each has different components wired up. > > I don't have any DG stuff, and it's unlikely I'm going to acquire one in the > near future (still working on my Sun 2/120), so eventually these will go to > someone else. I'll be leaving Sunday on a trip until Aug 10th, but I'll try > to take some photos of the boards tomorrow or Saturday (if anyone is > interested in them). > > Jeff > > > > _____________________________________________________ > This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm > From allain at panix.com Fri Jul 15 16:11:40 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:11:40 -0400 Subject: Newsbreak: NPR: -.retrobox.- References: <200507151619.j6FGJPGY088038@keith.ezwind.net><20050715162202.9C27D38133@smtp02.dc2.safesecureweb.com> Message-ID: <004601c58981$cc32e080$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Newsbreak: NPR reported on retro computer recycling today on All Things Considered (and may repeat the story in 1 hour - not sure) They centered on the company RetroBox. Key points. 400 million computers to be taken out of service worldwide in the next 3 years, probably 60M/y in the USA (...no new facts yet). But this company (new to me) tries to recycle everything they get, erasing drives, but will destroy hard drives of unknown interface. They do online sales. Located in Columbus OH. No personal affiliation. FYI Try to look past the obvious PC centrism and see this as another conduit to which to search for PDP8's -jea John A. re: http://www.retrobox.com/ http://www.npr.org/ 4:35 pm -> 4:40 pm and don't forget National Cristina Foundation if you're a 501(c)3 http://www.cristina.org/ From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Jul 15 17:43:39 2005 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:43:39 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D83C1B.3050901@bellsouth.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Would someone please give me the e-mail address of dkdkk? I need to have > it out with him. I'm tired of him sucking up everything on eBay like a > fucking black hole. > Hi Sellam -- Okay, so what do you hope to accomplish? Do you really think you can convince him -- or bully him -- into *not* buying whatever he wants at whatever price he's willing to pay??? Sounds like a dead-end trip to me. Glen 0/0 From ICS at Core.com Fri Jul 15 17:59:18 2005 From: ICS at Core.com (George Wiegand) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:59:18 -0400 Subject: Rescued: Data General Nova Boards References: <4980.68.6.79.45.1121399015.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> Message-ID: <010401c58990$d58423b0$ca84efd1@ics63szde1vn50> Jeff, I guess you did not see any Novas or big blue model 6045 hard Drives? ,George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Davis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 11:43 PM Subject: Rescued: Data General Nova Boards > Hi, I was at my local uni surplus today (UC Santa Barbara) and found, buried > in a bin of random industrial parts from the chem lab, some Data General Nova > boards. Here's what I found, if anyone would like to help me identify them > further: > > These boards are 15 x 15 inches: > > 107-000187-12X Disk Cartridge Controller, DGC Nova > 107-000007-02 DGC Nova Extender Board (quantity 2, one with gouged traces) > 107-000055-03 DGC D-A Converter Scope Control Card Reader > 107-000054-02 DGC General Purpose Interface > 107-000151-17-16 DGC Nova Cassette I/O > 107-000094-00 DG Nova Compatible Wiring Board (quantity 2) > D-10632-01 Data Channel Linc Tape, CO3000N Option 008 > > The wiring boards look to be prototyping boards, they are half filled with > soldered sockets and hand-wired components. > > These boards are 6.5 x 3.25 inches, and have no obvious plug connectors: > > 107-000008-01 DGC (no other writing, quantity 2) > These look like prototyping boards also, with rows for sockets and wire wrap > posts on either side. Each has different components wired up. > > I don't have any DG stuff, and it's unlikely I'm going to acquire one in the > near future (still working on my Sun 2/120), so eventually these will go to > someone else. I'll be leaving Sunday on a trip until Aug 10th, but I'll try > to take some photos of the boards tomorrow or Saturday (if anyone is > interested in them). > > Jeff > > > > _____________________________________________________ > This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 15 18:00:08 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D83C1B.3050901@bellsouth.net> References: <42D83C1B.3050901@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20050715155621.Y96468@shell.lmi.net> > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Would someone please give me the e-mail address of dkdkk? I need to have > > it out with him. I'm tired of him sucking up everything on eBay like a > > fucking black hole. On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Hi Sellam -- > Okay, so what do you hope to accomplish? Do you really think > you can convince him -- or bully him -- into *not* buying > whatever he wants at whatever price he's willing to pay??? > Sounds like a dead-end trip to me. If dkdkk will always outbid everybody for absolutely everything,... Sellam has some stuff in a warehouse that he might be interested in From ICS at Core.com Fri Jul 15 18:12:11 2005 From: ICS at Core.com (George Wiegand) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:12:11 -0400 Subject: FREE for S&H, 1983 vintage HP250 Sales Brochures Message-ID: <012101c58992$a2042ba0$ca84efd1@ics63szde1vn50> FREE for S&H, 6 lbs. of 1983 vintage HP250 and a few HP1000 Sales Brochures. George, ICS at Core.com From rschaefe at gcfn.org Fri Jul 15 18:10:33 2005 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:10:33 -0400 Subject: Newsbreak: NPR: -.retrobox.- References: <200507151619.j6FGJPGY088038@keith.ezwind.net><20050715162202.9C27D38133@smtp02.dc2.safesecureweb.com> <004601c58981$cc32e080$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <061301c58992$672b7920$6401a8c0@Lapdog> > But this company (new to me) tries to recycle everything they get, erasing > drives, but will destroy hard drives of unknown interface. They do online > sales. Located in Columbus OH. No personal affiliation. FYI Happen to remember the name? I'm in Columbus... > > Try to look past the obvious PC centrism and see this as > another conduit to which to search for PDP8's -jea > > John A. Bob From ICS at Core.com Fri Jul 15 18:22:15 2005 From: ICS at Core.com (George Wiegand) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:22:15 -0400 Subject: FREE for S&H, UOM BASIC Volume 10 Document Message-ID: <012c01c58994$0a104250$ca84efd1@ics63szde1vn50> FREE for S&H, University of Michigan, 1" thick Volume 10 on BASIC, dated 1971. It documents how to program BASIC from their terminals running from a IBM 360 model 67. ,George ICS at Core.com From ICS at Core.com Fri Jul 15 18:29:53 2005 From: ICS at Core.com (George Wiegand) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:29:53 -0400 Subject: Newsbreak: NPR: -.retrobox.- References: <200507151619.j6FGJPGY088038@keith.ezwind.net><20050715162202.9C27D38133@smtp02.dc2.safesecureweb.com><004601c58981$cc32e080$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <061301c58992$672b7920$6401a8c0@Lapdog> Message-ID: <014201c58995$1ac27090$ca84efd1@ics63szde1vn50> Hey I'm in Columbus too, that makes 3 of us. The company that John was talking about is in Gahanna. http://www.retrobox.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Schaefer" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 7:10 PM Subject: Re: Newsbreak: NPR: -.retrobox.- > > But this company (new to me) tries to recycle everything they get, erasing > > drives, but will destroy hard drives of unknown interface. They do online > > sales. Located in Columbus OH. No personal affiliation. FYI > > Happen to remember the name? I'm in Columbus... > > > > > Try to look past the obvious PC centrism and see this as > > another conduit to which to search for PDP8's -jea > > > > John A. > > Bob > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jul 15 19:17:25 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:17:25 -0700 Subject: DEC Slides??? In-Reply-To: <002701c5897f$5f4163e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <3.0.6.32.20050715153125.00a45be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <002701c5897f$5f4163e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: > > various DEC slides? > >FYI Joe is talking about rack slides here, not transparencies. Thank you for the clarification, just when I was starting to get interested.... Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 15 19:17:52 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:17:52 -0400 Subject: DEC Slides??? In-Reply-To: <002701c5897f$5f4163e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <3.0.6.32.20050715153125.00a45be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050715201752.009cd7c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:54 PM 7/15/05 -0400, John wrote: >> various DEC slides? > >FYI Joe is talking about rack slides here, not transparencies. Correct. I don't call microfiche "slides". Joe > From allain at panix.com Fri Jul 15 19:36:36 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:36:36 -0400 Subject: Newsbreak: NPR: -.retrobox.- References: <200507151619.j6FGJPGY088038@keith.ezwind.net><20050715162202.9C27D38133@smtp02.dc2.safesecureweb.com><004601c58981$cc32e080$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06><061301c58992$672b7920$6401a8c0@Lapdog> <014201c58995$1ac27090$ca84efd1@ics63szde1vn50> Message-ID: <076e01c5899e$6d27f360$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> re: http://www.retrobox.com/ > Hey I'm in Columbus too, that makes 3 of us. Pick the friendliest * guy and go on down and make friends. However they might be just starting up and not everybody settled in yet, just a possibility to look for. John A. * and saneist guy too -- this is Classiccmp From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jul 15 19:44:34 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:44:34 -0700 Subject: DEC Slides??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050715201752.009cd7c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050715153125.00a45be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050715201752.009cd7c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: At 8:17 PM -0400 7/15/05, Joe R. wrote: >At 04:54 PM 7/15/05 -0400, John wrote: >>> various DEC slides? >> >>FYI Joe is talking about rack slides here, not transparencies. > > Correct. I don't call microfiche "slides". Actually my initial thought was that you had some sort of 35mm marketing slides, which would be rather interesting. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 15 19:22:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 01:22:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Solid State Music V1B question In-Reply-To: from "Cini, Richard" at Jul 15, 5 08:39:42 am Message-ID: > > All: > > > > I'm playing around with the SSM V1B video board in my Altair, > and I have a question about errata and board modifications, specifically > with regards to the +12v power supply. > > > > I have three boards. One is "condition unknown" and two are working. The > +12v regulated supply consists of a small-value series resistor, a zener > diode and a cap. One of the boards has a 100 ohm, 1/4w resistor which is > charred and when operated, continues to smell. The other working board has a > 220 ohm resistor and the same zener diode and appears to work fine with no > smell. The manual specifies a 100 ohm resistor and a 1N4742 diode. > > > > The "condition unknown" board has a 7812 regulator soldered to the pads > replacing the resistor and the diode. From what I can tell from the > schematic, the +12v is used only for the character generator chip. When > turned on, I get a display full of well-formed garbage, which is probably > just that it's displaying the random data in buffer memory. > > > > Does anyone have a view on what the best kind of repair might be? Technically, the best repair is to use the 3-terminal regulator, properly heatsinked. I have no idea how much currect the character generator chip draws, or indeed what the chip is. But I can't believe it's anything like that 1amp rating of the 7812. If you want, for historical accuracy, to use the resistor + zener, it's worth knowing how to work out the values of those components. What you need to realise is 1) The resistor is what actually drops the voltage. The voltage across it is the diffeernce between the supply voltage (nominally 16V on an S100 machine, but it could be highetr) and the load voltage (here, 12V) 2) In order to drop that voltage, the resistor needs to pass a certain current. Part of that current goes through the load (the character generator chip). The rest goes through the zener diode. The zener current will vary with the supply voltage (obviously, the higher the supply, the more voltage needs to be dropped across the resistor, therefore more current needs to be flowing through the resistor). 3) The zenre currnet also varies with the load current. Since, for a given supply voltage, the current through the resistor is constant, the zener current must increase if the load current decreases. How to calculatr things . 1) Take the worst case of minimum input voltage and maximum load current. Add one a suitable zener current (say 10mA) to get the current through the resistor. Calculator the voltage drop accross the resistor (diffeence between minimum input voltage and load voltage). Calculator the resistor value. Go down to the next lowest prefered value if you have to. 2) Now take the maximum possible input voltage and re-calculate the voltage drop across the resistor. Calculate the power dissipated in the resistor under those conditions (power = (voltage drop)^2 / R). Use a resistor of at least that power rating. 3) For the same (highest) input voltage, calculate the current through the resistor. Now assume that all that current goes through the zener, that the load is drawing nothing. Calculate the power dissipated in the zener (remember the voltage across it is the wanted load voltage, here 12V). Make sure you use a zener that can dissipate that amount of power. Let's work through an example. Suppose the character generator draws 50mA, and that the input voltage can vary between 14V and 20V 1) Minimum voltage drop across the resistor = 14V-12V = 2V Current = 50mA + 10mA (zener current) = 60mA = 0.06A Resistor = 2/0/06 = 33.33 Ohms. Use a 33 Ohm resistor 2) Maximum voltage drop across the resistor = 20-12 = 8V Power = 8*8/33 = 1.94W. Use a 2W resistor. 3) Currnet through the resistor under those conditions = V/R = 8/33 = 0.242A Assume all that passes through the zener, which therefore dissipates 0.242*12 = 2.91W. That's a big zener! >From the values you've given, I think I've rather overestimated the load current, but you get the idea -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 15 19:25:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 01:25:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Solid State Music V1B question In-Reply-To: from "Cini, Richard" at Jul 15, 5 09:06:47 am Message-ID: > > The 1N4742 is a 1w part which at 12 volts is well within the amperage > ratings of a 7812. Come again? The 7812 is a 1A output regulator. So the load current can vary between 0 and 1A. If you replace it with a resistor + zener circuit, the zener current would haev to be around 1A when the load current was essentially zero. That means the poor old zener is dissipating 12W Now I don't believe for an instant that the character generator chip draws anything like 1A, so you could make do with a larger resistor and thus less power dissipated in the zener. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 15 18:50:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:50:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tape punch In-Reply-To: from "Charles" at Jul 14, 5 09:34:31 pm Message-ID: > > I'd posted here a while ago looking for info on a Tally 420PR tape > punch and have built a driver board to interface it to a PDP-8A. > But there is a problem with consistent punching/feeding (the > result is often a longitudinal tear instead of holes) even with > the pulse widths set to the recommended 4.5 ms +- 0.5 ms, -24 > volts, and the feed mechanism intermittently binds up too. > Currently I'm running it with only the sprocket and feed drivers > hooked up, and simulated punch commands from a 555 timer, so the > result should be continuously feeding tape with just sprocket > holes punched in it. >From what I remember of this unit, the feed and punch solenoids engage clutches which then cause the apporpiate bits to move. If those clutches are held in engagement, the punch pins move up and down repeatedly, it's not like a Facit 4070 where the solenoid moves the pin, and where the pin would stay through the tape if the solenoid was kept engaged. I think, therefore, that your problem must be mechanical. If the spocket punch clutch engages late, the pin will be out of sync with the tape motion. Maybe something is mechanically sticking. In any case I think you need to strip things down, clean out the old lubricant, and check for this. > > I suspect the problem is that the feed pulse starts immediately on > the falling edge of the punch pulse, so the pin hasn't cleared the Why should it do this? Aren't you driving the 2 solenoids together at the moment? Is it possible that the back-emf spike from one of the solenoids is causting thigs to mis-trigger? If so, you need to eliminate it. An antiparallel diode on each solenoid will slow things down too much. Mybe the old trick of diodes and a zener to clamp the pulse to a more reasonable level would work (it's used in most tape punches). > tape as the feed mechanism starts to move. It also tends to stick > in that position with the tape not moving (you can hear the > solenoids buzzing but the feed sprocket is not moving until > tweaked backwards a few degrees by hand). According to the This certainly sounds like a sticking clutch. > schematic, the escapement solenoid (which allows the tape to feed > one row per pulse) is supposed to be actuated internally by > contacts on the feed solenoid so there shouldn't be a timing issue > there. > > Does anyone have more info on this punch model, or experience with > these asynchronous mechanisms in general? Is there a requirement > for a delay between punching the holes and pulsing the feed > solenoid? How long does it take for the pins to move up or down >From what I remmeber of the manual, you energise all solenoids (punch and feed) together. No delay. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 15 20:32:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D83C1B.3050901@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Okay, so what do you hope to accomplish? Do you really think > you can convince him -- or bully him -- into *not* buying > whatever he wants at whatever price he's willing to pay??? Maybe. Maybe it'll be useful just to vent at him. Maybe it'll be useful to let him know he's pissing off half the community with his stupid bids. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 15 20:33:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <20050715155621.Y96468@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Would someone please give me the e-mail address of dkdkk? I need to have > > > it out with him. I'm tired of him sucking up everything on eBay like a > > > fucking black hole. > > On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > Hi Sellam -- > > Okay, so what do you hope to accomplish? Do you really think > > you can convince him -- or bully him -- into *not* buying > > whatever he wants at whatever price he's willing to pay??? > > Sounds like a dead-end trip to me. > > If dkdkk will always outbid everybody for absolutely everything,... > Sellam has some stuff in a warehouse that he might be interested in That's my alternative approach :) Bleed him dry with my collection and then retire ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 15 20:37:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Newsbreak: NPR: -.retrobox.- In-Reply-To: <076e01c5899e$6d27f360$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, John Allain wrote: > re: http://www.retrobox.com/ > > Hey I'm in Columbus too, that makes 3 of us. > > Pick the friendliest * guy and go on down and make friends. > However they might be just starting up and not everybody > settled in yet, just a possibility to look for. The story said they've been around since 1997. They sound very well established and have what sounds like a substantial operation (80 employees). Expect a very corporate warehouse type setting. You'll probably want to befriend the operations manager and let him/her know you're interested in rescuing mainframes and stuff that come through. Unless they're dicks they'll probably be really receptive. The founder of the company sounded like a really nice guy and would probably be happy to help save history. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jul 15 21:08:38 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:08:38 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D86C26.5030403@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > >>Okay, so what do you hope to accomplish? Do you really think >>you can convince him -- or bully him -- into *not* buying >>whatever he wants at whatever price he's willing to pay??? > > > Maybe. Maybe it'll be useful just to vent at him. Maybe it'll be useful > to let him know he's pissing off half the community with his stupid bids. I'm having trouble understanding how "more than I could afford" automagically equals stupid. I came into a small inheritance last spring and paid stupid money for several Amiga items off eBay. I wanted them, I had wanted them for a while, I could *afford* them, and I bid on them till I won them. Stupid? I dunno. My spousal equivalent sure doesn't understand why hat stuff is worth so much to me. But I have to say that a year later, I'm still getting my money's worth. I'd say that subjectively, each piece was worth what I paid. What its objective value might be, I don't give a damn. It ain't for sale. Furthermore, and I think it's you that usually points this out, each item was worth about $5 less than my price to at least one other collector. Doc From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 15 21:19:35 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:19:35 -0500 Subject: Rescued: Data General Nova Boards References: <4980.68.6.79.45.1121399015.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> Message-ID: <00a001c589ac$cf596650$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jeff wrote.... > 107-000187-12X Disk Cartridge Controller, DGC Nova > 107-000007-02 DGC Nova Extender Board (quantity 2, one with gouged > traces) > 107-000055-03 DGC D-A Converter Scope Control Card Reader > 107-000054-02 DGC General Purpose Interface > 107-000151-17-16 DGC Nova Cassette I/O > 107-000094-00 DG Nova Compatible Wiring Board (quantity 2) > D-10632-01 Data Channel Linc Tape, CO3000N Option 008 > 107-000008-01 DGC (no other writing, quantity 2) I'd be interested in all of these except for the D-A converter and the CO3000N. I have no intent to ever put the linctape on the DG, I have plenty of 1/2 mag tape drives for them already. If someone needs the above boards to get a system up, by all means give them precendence. I'm just looking for spares. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 15 21:23:11 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:23:11 -0500 Subject: M9312 boot rom ID help? References: <000b01c58957$5a572db0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200507151143.41999.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <00ab01c589ad$51bc9c70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Lyle wrote.... > Load and Examine 773000, 773200, 773400 and 773600 (for each Prom > address): > > The first three digits: > 040=A > 041=C > 042=D Oh Neat! I did read a section in the M9312 manual which shows a list of the contents of location 773000, 773200, 773400, 773600 and shows what rom those values are for. However, they don't say in the manual that they are ascii, I figured it was just some unique word (checksum or somesuch) at the beginning and hence wouldn't be a good technique to see what any (unlisted) boot prom was for. I should have noticed :> Thanks for pointing this out! Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 15 21:24:48 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:24:48 -0500 Subject: M9312 boot rom ID help? References: Message-ID: <00b001c589ad$8a2b05b0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Al wrote.... > please dump these when you get a chance. are you shure they aren't 768A9 > et al ? Yup, I'm sure. I double checked exactly that under a magnifying glass thinking I had the 6/8 wrong. I didn't. They will get dumped at some point in the not too distant future. I'll get you copies. So, does anyone know a reasonable source of blanks for these proms? Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 15 21:27:02 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:27:02 -0500 Subject: Rescued: Data General Nova Boards References: <4980.68.6.79.45.1121399015.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> <05d601c58915$75528cf0$367cfea9@newhare> Message-ID: <00b901c589ad$d9ebbd60$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bruce wrote... > Our our expanding Data General museum has been promised a Nova 2 system > that > is currently in Mexico which > has a COI Linctape system. The computer was working until several years > ago > in a production control facility, and the > D-10632 board might be just the thing to help us restore this promised COI > unit. You got the whole system with linctape drive and the controller is missing? *GRIN* I'm just kidding around. Like I said, I doubt seriously I'd ever put my linctape on the DG. Now, what I'd really like to find is a paper tape reader, 8" floppy drive, or ET-style dasher terminal. THOSE would really help complete my DG setup :) Jay From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jul 15 21:34:40 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:34:40 -0700 Subject: M9312 boot rom ID help? In-Reply-To: <00ab01c589ad$51bc9c70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000b01c58957$5a572db0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200507151143.41999.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <00ab01c589ad$51bc9c70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200507151934.40247.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 15 July 2005 19:23, Jay West wrote: > Lyle wrote.... > > > Load and Examine 773000, 773200, 773400 and 773600 (for each Prom > > address): > > > > The first three digits: > > 040=A > > 041=C > > 042=D > > Oh Neat! I did read a section in the M9312 manual which shows a list of the > contents of location 773000, 773200, 773400, 773600 and shows what rom > those values are for. However, they don't say in the manual that they are > ascii, I figured it was just some unique word (checksum or somesuch) at the > beginning and hence wouldn't be a good technique to see what any (unlisted) > boot prom was for. I should have noticed :> Thanks for pointing this out! > > Jay West Yes, it's interesting that it isn't documented (at least anywhere I could find.) What's weird is that the first three digits are "coded" and the last 7 bits are ASCII. Probably has something to do with the way the PROMS are 4 bit "compressed" format or something. I just happened upon the decoding "scheme" while trying to figure out what a bunch of PROMS were that I had. ;-) Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Jul 15 21:40:48 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:40:48 -0700 Subject: goodnight, OS/2 In-Reply-To: <200507151702.j6FH2fSg070779@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507151702.j6FH2fSg070779@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <14a733b329e1a5dd8b7b0c2c397c1a9b@valleyimplants.com> So- does this mean that you can no longer download the fixpaks? I have copies, but if IBM is going to get rid of them, I'll keep 2. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jul 15 21:39:37 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:39:37 -0700 Subject: M9312 boot rom ID help? In-Reply-To: <00b001c589ad$8a2b05b0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00b001c589ad$8a2b05b0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200507151939.37370.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 15 July 2005 19:24, Jay West wrote: > Al wrote.... > > > please dump these when you get a chance. are you shure they aren't 768A9 > > et al ? > > Yup, I'm sure. I double checked exactly that under a magnifying glass > thinking I had the 6/8 wrong. I didn't. > > They will get dumped at some point in the not too distant future. I'll get > you copies. So, does anyone know a reasonable source of blanks for these > proms? > > Jay The boot PROMs are 82S131 and the console PROM is 82S137. Check an IC Master to find "compatible" critters. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jul 15 22:16:33 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:16:33 -0500 Subject: Plain Old Crazy In-Reply-To: <42D73254.2090608@internet1.net> References: <20050714134422.37032.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <42D6F752.nail3UL11W6TO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <42D73254.2090608@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20050715221633.623393ac.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:49:40 -0400 C Fernandez wrote: > Tim, > > I too found it quite bizarre, but then I think I figured it out...... > He's using the term "Apple //" like a person might use the designation > > "PC". A Dell, a Compaq, an HP, a whatever, are all PC's. In other > words, he's using "Apple //" as a type or kind, not a brand. Like > what people, at least in the US, do with Kleenex, or Scotch Tape, or > Crescent Wrenchs > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > I would think that that sort of reference would only infuriate a few of the uglier lawyers at Apple at this point in history. Apple worked HARD to run a lot of Apple II cloners out of business back in the day. Now it should be time for all the old Apple II clone kit to be very collectable. A friend of mine used to have a 'board set' that was an 'Orange Peel' Computer, made by one of the companies Apple's lawyers drove out of existence. Now, it's completely understandable that Apple should want to completely 'own' the Apple brand. It's a historically significant matter, and this seller is legitimate in his insistence, on some levels. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jul 15 22:20:00 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:20:00 -0500 Subject: Anything on Bigboard II? In-Reply-To: <42D812A4.30415.7C3E970@localhost> References: <200507142234.j6EMYJAu060282@dewey.classiccmp.org> <42D812A4.30415.7C3E970@localhost> Message-ID: <20050715222000.4b19dfde.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:46:44 +1000 "Aaron Brockbank" wrote: > Hello, all. > > As a recent purchaser of the Ferguson Bigboard II, I find that it's > without any kind of documentation. Is there anything available > anywhere for this? > > >From reading back issues of EA and ETI here in Australia, this was > >first > released here in November of 1983, by (the now defunct, I believe) > Ritronics (aka Rod Irving Electronics) of Melbourne. The board is > marked with "(c)1982 J. Ferguson" and makes no mention of Digital > Research Computers, or Cal-Tex. > > I've read that the BB II was the basis for the Xerox 820, but the > schematics that I've been able to locate for the 820 are nothing like > what's on the BB II. > > Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me with this. > > Aaron (from the land downunder) I have what I think is the complete documentation set for the Ferguson BigBoard. I don't know if it's the Bigboard II. My board has 'Ferguson' etched right into the board. It's all in paper, schematics and the manual, and if nobody else has it, I could generate a copy and/or scan it in. Does anybody else already have this material in electronic form? From rcini at optonline.net Fri Jul 15 23:18:37 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:18:37 -0400 Subject: S100 RAM replacements Message-ID: <003201c589bd$7095d8e0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I decided to run a memory test on some boards I have and I found a bad chip. It's on a CompuPro RAM14 and the chip is a MM2147J. None of my other 16k boards has this chip (VG boards; contain 2114s but the boards have "BAD" labels on them so I've never plugged them in). The chip does not have a speed marking that I can see and I don't have a copy of the RAM14 manual although it might be similar to the Godbout EconoRam IV which uses the 40144/mm5257 chips. Can anyone help me with a suitable cross for this chip...and a source? My usual haunts don't show stock on this number. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 15 23:32:44 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D86C26.5030403@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > I came into a small inheritance last spring and paid stupid money for > several Amiga items off eBay. I wanted them, I had wanted them for a > while, I could *afford* them, and I bid on them till I won them. > > Stupid? I dunno. My spousal equivalent sure doesn't understand why > hat stuff is worth so much to me. But I have to say that a year later, > I'm still getting my money's worth. I'd say that subjectively, each > piece was worth what I paid. What its objective value might be, I don't > give a damn. It ain't for sale. When you start to become a problem by bidding 4-10 times what any one particular thing is worth in non-eBay dollars as this Dennis fellow does then I'll be sure to point you out as well. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jul 16 01:10:11 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 02:10:11 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk References: Message-ID: <009801c589cd$06b085a0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:32 AM Subject: Re: Need contact information for dkdkk > On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > I came into a small inheritance last spring and paid stupid money for > > several Amiga items off eBay. I wanted them, I had wanted them for a > > while, I could *afford* them, and I bid on them till I won them. > > > > Stupid? I dunno. My spousal equivalent sure doesn't understand why > > hat stuff is worth so much to me. But I have to say that a year later, > > I'm still getting my money's worth. I'd say that subjectively, each > > piece was worth what I paid. What its objective value might be, I don't > > give a damn. It ain't for sale. > > When you start to become a problem by bidding 4-10 times what any one > particular thing is worth in non-eBay dollars as this Dennis fellow does > then I'll be sure to point you out as well. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival When you get a hold of this Dennis on the phone please record the conversation, I think we would all like to hear what Dennis has to say! And please no bleeping parts out. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 01:23:39 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 01:23:39 -0500 Subject: Newsbreak: NPR: -.retrobox.- In-Reply-To: References: <076e01c5899e$6d27f360$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On 7/15/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, John Allain wrote: > > > re: http://www.retrobox.com/ > > > Hey I'm in Columbus too, that makes 3 of us. :-) > > Pick the friendliest * guy and go on down and make friends. > > However they might be just starting up and not everybody > > settled in yet, just a possibility to look for. > > The story said they've been around since 1997. 1997?!? I'm really surprised to not have heard of them before now. I checked on their website... I've been by their place dozens if not hundreds of times in the past 7 years (not that I'd expect a large sign saying "Turn Left for Old Computers". I'd love to hear what people find, but, again, from their web pages, it looked like they a) don't know much about non-PC equipment (look at the Sun systems for sale), and b) think the stuff's made of solid gold. -ethan ey sound very well > established and have what sounds like a substantial operation (80 > employees). Expect a very corporate warehouse type setting. You'll > probably want to befriend the operations manager and let him/her know > you're interested in rescuing mainframes and stuff that come through. > Unless they're dicks they'll probably be really receptive. The founder of > the company sounded like a really nice guy and would probably be happy to > help save history. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jul 16 03:51:17 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:51:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: M9312 boot rom ID help? In-Reply-To: Lyle Bickley "Re: M9312 boot rom ID help?" (Jul 15, 19:39) References: <00b001c589ad$8a2b05b0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200507151939.37370.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <10507160951.ZM22230@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jul 15 2005, 19:39, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Friday 15 July 2005 19:24, Jay West wrote: > > They will get dumped at some point in the not too distant future. I'll get > > you copies. So, does anyone know a reasonable source of blanks for these > > proms? > > > > Jay > > The boot PROMs are 82S131 and the console PROM is 82S137. Check an IC Master > to find "compatible" critters. There's a list of equivalents in the text at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECPROMs/pinouts though it may not be a complete list. Note that "compatible" or "equivalent" for PROMs means "read compatible". Different manufacturers did not all use the same programming algorithms. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jul 16 04:41:20 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 05:41:20 -0400 Subject: Anything on Bigboard II? Message-ID: <20050716094118.PELU11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >I have what I think is the complete documentation set for the Ferguson >BigBoard. I don't know if it's the Bigboard II. My board has >'Ferguson' etched right into the board. It's all in paper, schematics >and the manual, and if nobody else has it, I could generate a copy >and/or scan it in. I too have an original Bigboard, and complete documentation set (also paper), however I don't think this will be all that useful to the OP, as the BB2 is quite a bit different. To identify which BB you have: BB1: - Large 4x8 array of 4116 RAMs - EPROMS are in a row going across (side to side) the board - Video is hardwired (no 6845 CRT controller) - Reads "The Furguson" in large letters, somewhat centered on the board, about 1/4 from one end. - No prototypeing area BB2: - Single 1x8 row of 4164 RAMs - EPROMS are in a row going down the side (at the edge) - Contains 6845 CTR controller - Reads "BIGBOARD II" along one edge. - Has a prototyping area at one end. There's lots of other differences, but these are the most visible ones. I have a photo of my BB1 on my site (look under "non S100 - CP/M"). Unfortunately I don't have information on the BB2 except for advertisements and articals published in Micro Cornucopia. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Jul 16 08:40:34 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:40:34 -0400 Subject: S100 RAM replacements References: <003201c589bd$7095d8e0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <000601c58a0b$f2631420$0100a8c0@screamer> I'm pretty sure I have some 2147's around here. Are you in a rush for these? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard A. Cini" To: "CCTalk" Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:18 AM Subject: S100 RAM replacements > All: > > I decided to run a memory test on some boards I have and I found a > bad chip. It's on a CompuPro RAM14 and the chip is a MM2147J. None of my > other 16k boards has this chip (VG boards; contain 2114s but the boards > have > "BAD" labels on them so I've never plugged them in). The chip does not > have > a speed marking that I can see and I don't have a copy of the RAM14 manual > although it might be similar to the Godbout EconoRam IV which uses the > 40144/mm5257 chips. > > Can anyone help me with a suitable cross for this chip...and a > source? My usual haunts don't show stock on this number. > > Thanks. > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ > > > From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Jul 16 08:41:53 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:41:53 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk References: Message-ID: <000a01c58a0c$217985a0$0100a8c0@screamer> You don't set what an item is worth. The highest bidder does. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:32 AM Subject: Re: Need contact information for dkdkk > On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> I came into a small inheritance last spring and paid stupid money for >> several Amiga items off eBay. I wanted them, I had wanted them for a >> while, I could *afford* them, and I bid on them till I won them. >> >> Stupid? I dunno. My spousal equivalent sure doesn't understand why >> hat stuff is worth so much to me. But I have to say that a year later, >> I'm still getting my money's worth. I'd say that subjectively, each >> piece was worth what I paid. What its objective value might be, I don't >> give a damn. It ain't for sale. > > When you start to become a problem by bidding 4-10 times what any one > particular thing is worth in non-eBay dollars as this Dennis fellow does > then I'll be sure to point you out as well. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jul 16 08:41:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:41:47 -0400 Subject: S100 RAM replacements In-Reply-To: <003201c589bd$7095d8e0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050716094147.00a361c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Rich, Do you have a date for these? I don't have all my data books here but I checked in my 1980 and 1981 D.A.T.A. books and they don't list the MM2147 but they do list a TI version (TMS21L47). Those are 4k x 1 RAMs 5 volt only RAMs. Your parts are probably the same. BTW MM is Monolithic Memories. I think I have some 2147s in my spares. How many are you looking for? I don't have any listing for 5257s in these books so I can't tell you anything about them. Joe At 12:18 AM 7/16/05 -0400, you wrote: >All: > > I decided to run a memory test on some boards I have and I found a >bad chip. It's on a CompuPro RAM14 and the chip is a MM2147J. None of my >other 16k boards has this chip (VG boards; contain 2114s but the boards have >"BAD" labels on them so I've never plugged them in). The chip does not have >a speed marking that I can see and I don't have a copy of the RAM14 manual >although it might be similar to the Godbout EconoRam IV which uses the >40144/mm5257 chips. > > Can anyone help me with a suitable cross for this chip...and a >source? My usual haunts don't show stock on this number. > > Thanks. > >Rich > >Rich Cini >Collector of classic computers >Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project >Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >/************************************************************/ > > > From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jul 16 09:18:58 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:18:58 -0400 Subject: S100 RAM replacements In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050716094147.00a361c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <005801c58a11$4e9434e0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: Through Randy, I actually found these at JDR Microdevices, so I ordered a few, which I should have this week. Thanks a lot. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joe R. Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:42 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: S100 RAM replacements Rich, Do you have a date for these? I don't have all my data books here but I checked in my 1980 and 1981 D.A.T.A. books and they don't list the MM2147 but they do list a TI version (TMS21L47). Those are 4k x 1 RAMs 5 volt only RAMs. Your parts are probably the same. BTW MM is Monolithic Memories. I think I have some 2147s in my spares. How many are you looking for? I don't have any listing for 5257s in these books so I can't tell you anything about them. Joe At 12:18 AM 7/16/05 -0400, you wrote: >All: > > I decided to run a memory test on some boards I have and I found a bad >chip. It's on a CompuPro RAM14 and the chip is a MM2147J. None of my >other 16k boards has this chip (VG boards; contain 2114s but the boards >have "BAD" labels on them so I've never plugged them in). The chip does >not have a speed marking that I can see and I don't have a copy of the >RAM14 manual although it might be similar to the Godbout EconoRam IV >which uses the 40144/mm5257 chips. > > Can anyone help me with a suitable cross for this chip...and a source? >My usual haunts don't show stock on this number. > > Thanks. > >Rich > >Rich Cini >Collector of classic computers >Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project >Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >/************************************************************/ > > > From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 16 09:16:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 07:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <000a01c58a0c$217985a0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Jul 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > You don't set what an item is worth. > > The highest bidder does. Right, and that's the problem here. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jul 16 09:45:57 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:45:57 -0400 Subject: More DEC Boot ROM Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050716104557.009b2720@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Jay's questions about the DEC Boot Roms prompted me to go dig out some boxs of Boot ROMs that I got from Thom. I checked the list but I can't find any of these listed. Does anyone know what they're for? One box has just one and it's marked 23-060E4-00. the next box has four PROMs and they're marked 23034E2-00, 23-033E2-00, 23032E2 and 23-061E2-00. They're all 24 pin .6 inch wide PROMs. The next box has two 16 pin .3 inch wide PROMs with the numbers LM8513 990A9 and LM8514 767A9 on them. Those are DEC numbers NOT a commercail number even though they sound like commercail PNs. The last box has some markings on it (but they may not be right!). The markings are water damaged and hard to read but I can read "M8317 bootup module" so it appears to be for the PDP-8A. It has two .3 inch wide 16 pin PROMs in it. They're marked 469A2 and 465A2 and both are also marked 8005 (date code?). Anybody know what any of these PROMs are for? Joe From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jul 16 10:09:55 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:09:55 -0400 Subject: Free DEC SCSI parts Message-ID: <42D92343.nail5XY1KU6OG@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Available, will ship if you pay (approx $10 inside US for USPS priority mail): DEC VS3100-type SCSI cable. Length about 1 foot, has the funky VS3100 68-pin SCSI connector on one end, and a "normal" Centronics 50-pin SCSI-1 style connector on the other. DEC RRD46-AB-A02 SCSI CD-ROM reader. Oh, now that I look, that cable is more like 24" or 30" long, and says "BC09J-03". If interested, E-mail me at my non-list address, "shoppa at trailing-edge.com". Will give priority to anyone willing to do a local pickup (outside Washington DC) but will ship for $10 if nobody is willing to pick up. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jul 16 10:13:49 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:13:49 -0400 Subject: Free: Mark-Sense card reader Message-ID: <42D9242D.nail5ZC11FN1Y@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Free in Washington DC area, local pickup only: A Mountain Computer mark-sense card reader. Has a DB-25 on the back and a bunch of dipswitches. The DB-25 is RS-232. Model 1100A. Has a small hopper, rubber roller feed etc. Maybe it could be refurbed into a punch card reader. No idea if it works or not. E-mail me at "shoppa at trailing-edge.com" if interested. Tim. From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Sat Jul 16 11:32:41 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:32:41 -0500 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D936A9.8080009@vzavenue.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Sat, 16 Jul 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > >>You don't set what an item is worth. >> >>The highest bidder does. >> >> > >Right, and that's the problem here. > > > What's the problem? Someone has deeper pockets? There is always someone who has more money. Get over it snd take the long view. It makes our collections worth more. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From news at computercollector.com Sat Jul 16 12:05:16 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:05:16 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D936A9.8080009@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <200507161714.j6GHEEJp002554@keith.ezwind.net> >>> Get over it snd take the long view. It makes our collections worth more. That's ridiculous! Sellam is not crying that he couldn't afford to win one or two specific auctions because of Dennis K(full surname unknown). He is pointing out that our hobby suddenly has this guy mysterious person who is being an irresponsible renegade. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Rice Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:33 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Need contact information for dkdkk Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Sat, 16 Jul 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > >>You don't set what an item is worth. >> >>The highest bidder does. >> >> > >Right, and that's the problem here. > > > What's the problem? Someone has deeper pockets? There is always someone who has more money. Get over it snd take the long view. It makes our collections worth more. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Jul 16 12:19:21 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:19:21 -0400 Subject: S100 RAM replacements - 2147's on Godbout boards In-Reply-To: <200507161700.j6GH0ZXR085496@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200507161719.j6GHJEWZ014096@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> The 2147 was a mainframe cache static memory chip. It is extremely fast, I think in the 35 nSec range, and uses less power than most of the static memory chips more commonly used in S-100 systems, although being a static memory chip, it is not "low power" by any stretch of the imagination. My recollection is that it's a 4kx1 chip with the same pinout as the TI 4044 and almost all of the other 4kx1 static memory chips, and that you can actually substitute or mix 4044's and 2147's (the 4044's are nothing like as fast, but in a 2 to 4 MHz S-100 system, you only need 150 to 250 nSec). However, please check this out, as it's possible that the 2147 was 1kx4 instead of 4kx1. I don't know why no one else used this chip, but it is a fantastic static memory chip. From news at computercollector.com Sat Jul 16 12:21:03 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:21:03 -0400 Subject: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D936A9.8080009@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <200507161729.j6GHTvHA002639@keith.ezwind.net> Hit 'send' in the middle of cutting and pasting, sorry.... >>> Get over it snd take the long view. It makes our collections worth more. That's ridiculous! Sellam is not crying that he couldn't afford to win one or two specific auctions because of Dennis K(full surname unknown). Some people may not like Sellam's word choice, but he's speaking up in defense of all of us. He is pointing out that our hobby suddenly has this guy who is being an irresponsible renegade. Say, for example, that some rich person heard a small part of the NPR story, or quickly scanned an article about that Christie's auction, and decided in his own mind that, "Oh, old computers are collectible and worth lots of money, I should invest in some"... so the guy jumps out there, anonymously, and starts hoarding every C64 and TRS-80 he can find for $500... would that be good for the hobby? Would you be happy, James, because it ups the value of your C64 or TRS-80 from $20 to $500? Or would you be ticked because some idiot who didn't do his homework is crashing the entire market for those machines? That's just hypothetical; I'm sure we all strongly hope that Dennis K. turns out to be responsible in the end, since according to Bill Maddox, he was formerly associated with the Boston Computer Museum. Attention, Vince (vrs at msn.com) -- you're the only person on cctalk who said you directly know who Dennis K. is. If you can't reveal his surname or approximate location, then what can you share about his ethics, hobby awareness, and intentions? If the mysterious Dennis K. is a good, aware, well-intended collectors, then someone who knows his firsthand should come to his defense, too. - Evan -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Rice Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:33 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Need contact information for dkdkk Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Sat, 16 Jul 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > >>You don't set what an item is worth. >> >>The highest bidder does. >> >> > >Right, and that's the problem here. > > > What's the problem? Someone has deeper pockets? There is always someone who has more money. Get over it snd take the long view. It makes our collections worth more. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From jrice54 at blackcube.org Sat Jul 16 12:34:20 2005 From: jrice54 at blackcube.org (James Rice) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:34:20 -0500 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <200507161714.j6GHEEJp002554@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507161714.j6GHEEJp002554@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42D9451C.3040503@blackcube.org> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >>>>Get over it snd take the long view. It makes our collections worth >>>> >>>> >more. > >That's ridiculous! Sellam is not crying that he couldn't afford to win one >or two specific auctions because of Dennis K(full surname unknown). He is >pointing out that our hobby suddenly has this guy mysterious person who is >being an irresponsible renegade. > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of James Rice >Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:33 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Need contact information for dkdkk > >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Help me understand the problem. How is paying more in an auction being "an irresponsible renegade"? What is the downside of someone paying more for stuff other than raising our own costs. If I had deeper pockets, I'd pay a lot more for thing I really wanted. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From news at computercollector.com Sat Jul 16 12:45:27 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:45:27 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D9451C.3040503@blackcube.org> Message-ID: <200507161754.j6GHsFpV002798@keith.ezwind.net> >>> Help me understand the problem. How is paying more in an auction being "an irresponsible renegade"? What is the downside of someone paying more for stuff other than raising our own costs. If I had deeper pockets, I'd pay a lot more for thing I really wanted. There is nothing wrong with overpaying now and then if you can afford it. I'd love to have a Curta 1 calculator, but I haven't got the spare five grand. If I were rich, and saw one for sale immediately at $7,000, would I buy it? Perhaps. But what if I started buying every Curta to be found for that price, and refused to tell anyone my identity or intentions? THAT is irresponsible. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Rice Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 1:34 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Need contact information for dkdkk 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >>>>Get over it snd take the long view. It makes our collections worth >>>> >>>> >more. > >That's ridiculous! Sellam is not crying that he couldn't afford to win >one or two specific auctions because of Dennis K(full surname unknown). >He is pointing out that our hobby suddenly has this guy mysterious >person who is being an irresponsible renegade. > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of James Rice >Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:33 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Need contact information for dkdkk > >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Help me understand the problem. How is paying more in an auction being "an irresponsible renegade"? What is the downside of someone paying more for stuff other than raising our own costs. If I had deeper pockets, I'd pay a lot more for thing I really wanted. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jul 16 12:48:34 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:48:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: More DEC Boot ROM Questions In-Reply-To: "Joe R." "More DEC Boot ROM Questions" (Jul 16, 10:45) References: <3.0.6.32.20050716104557.009b2720@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <10507161848.ZM23022@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jul 16 2005, 10:45, Joe R. wrote: > Jay's questions about the DEC Boot Roms prompted me to go dig out some > boxs of Boot ROMs that I got from Thom. I checked the list but I can't find > any of these listed. Does anyone know what they're for? One box has just > one and it's marked 23-060E4-00. I think I've come across that but I can't remember where. Sorry! > the next box has four PROMs and they're > marked 23034E2-00, 23-033E2-00, 23032E2 and 23-061E2-00. They're > all 24 pin .6 inch wide PROMs. Those aren't boot ROMs, they're the terminal board ROMs for a VT105 or VT125. Replace the 061 with 031 and you'd have a VT100 set. > The next box has two 16 pin .3 inch wide PROMs with the numbers LM8513 > 990A9 and LM8514 767A9 on them. Those are DEC numbers NOT a commercail > number even though they sound like commercail PNs. I don't know what 990 is but 767 is the "DU" boot for a UDA50. > The last box has some markings on it (but they may not be right!). The > markings are water damaged and hard to read but I can read "M8317 bootup > module" so it appears to be for the PDP-8A. It has two .3 inch wide 16 pin > PROMs in it. They're marked 469A2 and 465A2 and both are also marked 8005 > (date code?). Could be. DEC were still making 8As in 1980. Bear in mind that DEC used ROMs, EPROMS, and PROMs for lots of things other than boot code. Smaller ones, in particular, crop up all over some older boards as logic decoders and the like. The lists on my website don't include those, because the lists were mostly built up as I came across boot ROMs in systems. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jrice54 at blackcube.org Sat Jul 16 12:49:50 2005 From: jrice54 at blackcube.org (James Rice) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:49:50 -0500 Subject: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <200507161729.j6GHTvHA002639@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507161729.j6GHTvHA002639@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42D948BE.3030503@blackcube.org> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >Hit 'send' in the middle of cutting and pasting, sorry.... > > > >That's ridiculous! Sellam is not crying that he couldn't afford to win one >or two specific auctions because of Dennis K(full surname unknown). Some >people may not like Sellam's word choice, but he's speaking up in defense of >all of us. He is pointing out that our hobby suddenly has this guy who is >being an irresponsible renegade. Say, for example, that some rich person >heard a small part of the NPR story, or quickly scanned an article about >that Christie's auction, and decided in his own mind that, "Oh, old >computers are collectible and worth lots of money, I should invest in >some"... so the guy jumps out there, anonymously, and starts hoarding every >C64 and TRS-80 he can find for $500... would that be good for the hobby? >Would you be happy, James, because it ups the value of your C64 or TRS-80 >from $20 to $500? Or would you be ticked because some idiot who didn't do >his homework is crashing the entire market for those machines? > >That's just hypothetical; I'm sure we all strongly hope that Dennis K. turns >out to be responsible in the end, since according to Bill Maddox, he was >formerly associated with the Boston Computer Museum. > >Attention, Vince (vrs at msn.com) -- you're the only person on cctalk who said >you directly know who Dennis K. is. If you can't reveal his surname or >approximate location, then what can you share about his ethics, hobby >awareness, and intentions? If the mysterious Dennis K. is a good, aware, >well-intended collectors, then someone who knows his firsthand should come >to his defense, too. > >- Evan > > > Actually I wouldn't care if the cost jumped suddenly. I over paid for lot of my items. Example: I paid over $1100 for my dual 133 BeBox. I bought it during the "dot comm" era and a lot of people (including myself) with too much money were buying toys. Do I care that I can only get half of my money back? No, it's not for sale at any price. I paid twice as much as current value for my Turbo Dimension NeXT cube. Same result as the BeBox. I really don't care. I like them, I wanted them and I'm still satisfied with my items and my purchases. So they are still worth the original cost to me? Yes, they are. Eventually they will be worth as much as I paid or more. I probably won't sell then either. Would I stop collecting if the price suddenly jumped? Probably. I would slow down my purchasing but that's the only result. Who knows I might take advantage of the new value of my collection and make some money for a change. I'm sorry if the tone of my original message was misunderstood by some. I'm not cutting Sellam or anyone else down, just pointing out the world market place will determine price, individuals always determine the ultimate value of things for themselves. James -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jul 16 12:55:05 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:55:05 -0400 Subject: FDC Gap Length? Message-ID: <20050716175504.VWKS11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, I've been doing a bit more work on my replacement for TeleDisk, and I have it working quite nicely, however I do have one area that I could some help with... The 765 FDC requires two "Gap Length" values, one for formatting (total gap between sectors), and one for writing... I have been unable to find any information about calculating these values from arbitrary sectors/track, encoding and transfer rate. All of the documents I have found simply give a table of suggested values for common disk formats, but give no hint as to how to calculate them for uncommon or arbritary formats. (for example, the fairly common 9x512 format is not included in the table). Currently, I am using the values from the table, and some "guesses" for values for some other formats which I have tried, however I do not know how to derive the correct value for these items. A couple hours on Google turned up numerous articals, ALL of which either: a) use a single fixed value b) use the NEC table c) call then "magic" numbers or d) say they can't provide more information on how to select GPL due to lack of information. With the 765, I cannot determine the gap length used on the original disk, so the best I can do is to try and determine a suitable gap length when formatting based on the # sectors, sector size, encoding method, transfer rate and drive type.... Can anyone provide any clues? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 16 12:55:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <200507161729.j6GHTvHA002639@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Jul 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > all of us. He is pointing out that our hobby suddenly has this guy who is > being an irresponsible renegade. Say, for example, that some rich person > heard a small part of the NPR story, or quickly scanned an article about > that Christie's auction, and decided in his own mind that, "Oh, old > computers are collectible and worth lots of money, I should invest in > some"... so the guy jumps out there, anonymously, and starts hoarding every > C64 and TRS-80 he can find for $500... would that be good for the hobby? > Would you be happy, James, because it ups the value of your C64 or TRS-80 > from $20 to $500? Or would you be ticked because some idiot who didn't do > his homework is crashing the entire market for those machines? And any such short term gains would be quickly lost as the over-inflation becomes obvious. Did anyone learn ANYTHING from the dot-com bubble? > That's just hypothetical; I'm sure we all strongly hope that Dennis K. turns > out to be responsible in the end, since according to Bill Maddox, he was > formerly associated with the Boston Computer Museum. That's not confirmed at all. > Attention, Vince (vrs at msn.com) -- you're the only person on cctalk who said > you directly know who Dennis K. is. If you can't reveal his surname or > approximate location, then what can you share about his ethics, hobby > awareness, and intentions? If the mysterious Dennis K. is a good, aware, > well-intended collectors, then someone who knows his firsthand should come > to his defense, too. Or tell him he's pissing off a lot of people. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From news at computercollector.com Sat Jul 16 13:06:38 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:06:38 -0400 Subject: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D948BE.3030503@blackcube.org> Message-ID: <200507161815.j6GIFMCX003035@keith.ezwind.net> >>> I paid over $1100 for my dual 133 BeBox. I bought it during the "dot comm" era and a lot of people (including myself) with too much money were buying toys But that was when the computer was still virtually new -- they produced those in 1996 -- there was still supply available. >>> individuals always determine the ultimate value of things for themselves. Granted, on specific items, as I said about the Curta in my other reply just now. We just can't have one person being irresponsible and manipulating the whole market for everyone else. It's one thing for prices to change over time, but to have one person come in out of nowhere and start f-cking with everything just because he can isn't right. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Rice Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 1:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Need contact information for dkdkk 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >Hit 'send' in the middle of cutting and pasting, sorry.... > > > >That's ridiculous! Sellam is not crying that he couldn't afford to win >one or two specific auctions because of Dennis K(full surname unknown). >Some people may not like Sellam's word choice, but he's speaking up in >defense of all of us. He is pointing out that our hobby suddenly has >this guy who is being an irresponsible renegade. Say, for example, >that some rich person heard a small part of the NPR story, or quickly >scanned an article about that Christie's auction, and decided in his >own mind that, "Oh, old computers are collectible and worth lots of >money, I should invest in some"... so the guy jumps out there, >anonymously, and starts hoarding every >C64 and TRS-80 he can find for $500... would that be good for the hobby? >Would you be happy, James, because it ups the value of your C64 or >TRS-80 from $20 to $500? Or would you be ticked because some idiot who >didn't do his homework is crashing the entire market for those machines? > >That's just hypothetical; I'm sure we all strongly hope that Dennis K. >turns out to be responsible in the end, since according to Bill Maddox, >he was formerly associated with the Boston Computer Museum. > >Attention, Vince (vrs at msn.com) -- you're the only person on cctalk who >said you directly know who Dennis K. is. If you can't reveal his >surname or approximate location, then what can you share about his >ethics, hobby awareness, and intentions? If the mysterious Dennis K. >is a good, aware, well-intended collectors, then someone who knows his >firsthand should come to his defense, too. > >- Evan > > > Actually I wouldn't care if the cost jumped suddenly. I over paid for lot of my items. Example: I paid over $1100 for my dual 133 BeBox. I bought it during the "dot comm" era and a lot of people (including myself) with too much money were buying toys. Do I care that I can only get half of my money back? No, it's not for sale at any price. I paid twice as much as current value for my Turbo Dimension NeXT cube. Same result as the BeBox. I really don't care. I like them, I wanted them and I'm still satisfied with my items and my purchases. So they are still worth the original cost to me? Yes, they are. Eventually they will be worth as much as I paid or more. I probably won't sell then either. Would I stop collecting if the price suddenly jumped? Probably. I would slow down my purchasing but that's the only result. Who knows I might take advantage of the new value of my collection and make some money for a change. I'm sorry if the tone of my original message was misunderstood by some. I'm not cutting Sellam or anyone else down, just pointing out the world market place will determine price, individuals always determine the ultimate value of things for themselves. James -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From news at computercollector.com Sat Jul 16 13:10:23 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:10:23 -0400 Subject: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Needcontact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <200507161729.j6GHTvHA002639@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200507161819.j6GIJ6x8003049@keith.ezwind.net> Whoops ... when I read Bill M.'s comment about "An acquaintance of mine knows 'dkdkk' through his involvment with the old Computer Museum in Boston"... I should've asked you, Bill, to clarify: when you said "through 'his' involvement" do you man your friend's or Dennis K.'s? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 1:21 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Needcontact information for dkdkk Hit 'send' in the middle of cutting and pasting, sorry.... >>> Get over it snd take the long view. It makes our collections worth more. That's ridiculous! Sellam is not crying that he couldn't afford to win one or two specific auctions because of Dennis K(full surname unknown). Some people may not like Sellam's word choice, but he's speaking up in defense of all of us. He is pointing out that our hobby suddenly has this guy who is being an irresponsible renegade. Say, for example, that some rich person heard a small part of the NPR story, or quickly scanned an article about that Christie's auction, and decided in his own mind that, "Oh, old computers are collectible and worth lots of money, I should invest in some"... so the guy jumps out there, anonymously, and starts hoarding every C64 and TRS-80 he can find for $500... would that be good for the hobby? Would you be happy, James, because it ups the value of your C64 or TRS-80 from $20 to $500? Or would you be ticked because some idiot who didn't do his homework is crashing the entire market for those machines? That's just hypothetical; I'm sure we all strongly hope that Dennis K. turns out to be responsible in the end, since according to Bill Maddox, he was formerly associated with the Boston Computer Museum. Attention, Vince (vrs at msn.com) -- you're the only person on cctalk who said you directly know who Dennis K. is. If you can't reveal his surname or approximate location, then what can you share about his ethics, hobby awareness, and intentions? If the mysterious Dennis K. is a good, aware, well-intended collectors, then someone who knows his firsthand should come to his defense, too. - Evan -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Rice Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:33 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Need contact information for dkdkk Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Sat, 16 Jul 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > >>You don't set what an item is worth. >> >>The highest bidder does. >> >> > >Right, and that's the problem here. > > > What's the problem? Someone has deeper pockets? There is always someone who has more money. Get over it snd take the long view. It makes our collections worth more. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Sat Jul 16 13:16:12 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:16:12 -0500 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <200507161754.j6GHsFpV002798@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507161754.j6GHsFpV002798@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42D94EEC.5020305@vzavenue.net> Evan, I will l have to just respectfully disagree with you and Sellam. I don't see anything wrong with it, but that is my opinion and everyone knows the old saw about opinions. They usually do stink to everyone else but the owner. Have Fun Everybody, it's Saturday. If you are lucky to be off work, which I am for once in a blue moon, enjoy the day. James -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jul 16 13:28:02 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:28:02 -0500 Subject: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <200507161815.j6GIFMCX003035@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507161815.j6GIFMCX003035@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42D951B2.10800@pacbell.net> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >>>>I paid over $1100 for my dual 133 BeBox. I bought it during the "dot ... > Granted, on specific items, as I said about the Curta in my other reply just > now. We just can't have one person being irresponsible and manipulating the > whole market for everyone else. It's one thing for prices to change over > time, but to have one person come in out of nowhere and start f-cking with > everything just because he can isn't right. ... Paraphrase: when I do it, it is OK, but when the other guy does it more than me, it is wrong. As has been pointed out, the price is set by the 2nd highest bidder, so DK isn't to blame. If DK makes lower max price bids but which are still high enough to win, it won't drop the price of auctions one whit. The only way to get the average price down is to ask him to lose more auctions. Do you think he'll agree to it? Besides, haven't we seen this a number of times before? fdbruce is selling all sorts of "interesting" (to me) machines on ebay for the past few months. A year or two ago he was one of those deep pocket buyers. He got tired and now they are getting injected back into the system. No harm done. Well, other than he is currently selling a "in need of repairs" Sol-20 and separately a microcomplex 80/64 video mod board which obviously originally was part of the at modified Sol-20 (without this board, that Sol won't do anything). DK's intentions are not our business. I doubt he is using them to test a grinding machine. These machines will appear again. How many people on this list have systems, most of which will sit in a pile somewhere until they get resold on ebay or traded for some other system? Isn't this a waste? How is it much different from DK's presumed "sin" of hoarding? From news at computercollector.com Sat Jul 16 13:38:02 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:38:02 -0400 Subject: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D951B2.10800@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200507161846.j6GIkd21003219@keith.ezwind.net> >>> Paraphrase: when I do it, it is OK, but when the other guy does it more than me, it is wrong. That is NOT what I said. I said it's one thing to overpay on a stand-alone basis; what Dennis K. is doing is overpaying on a consistent basis. Very different things. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Battle Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 2:28 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Need contact information for dkdkk 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >>>>I paid over $1100 for my dual 133 BeBox. I bought it during the >>>>"dot ... > Granted, on specific items, as I said about the Curta in my other > reply just now. We just can't have one person being irresponsible and > manipulating the whole market for everyone else. It's one thing for > prices to change over time, but to have one person come in out of > nowhere and start f-cking with everything just because he can isn't right. ... Paraphrase: when I do it, it is OK, but when the other guy does it more than me, it is wrong. As has been pointed out, the price is set by the 2nd highest bidder, so DK isn't to blame. If DK makes lower max price bids but which are still high enough to win, it won't drop the price of auctions one whit. The only way to get the average price down is to ask him to lose more auctions. Do you think he'll agree to it? Besides, haven't we seen this a number of times before? fdbruce is selling all sorts of "interesting" (to me) machines on ebay for the past few months. A year or two ago he was one of those deep pocket buyers. He got tired and now they are getting injected back into the system. No harm done. Well, other than he is currently selling a "in need of repairs" Sol-20 and separately a microcomplex 80/64 video mod board which obviously originally was part of the at modified Sol-20 (without this board, that Sol won't do anything). DK's intentions are not our business. I doubt he is using them to test a grinding machine. These machines will appear again. How many people on this list have systems, most of which will sit in a pile somewhere until they get resold on ebay or traded for some other system? Isn't this a waste? How is it much different from DK's presumed "sin" of hoarding? From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jul 16 13:51:56 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:51:56 -0400 Subject: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Need contact information for dkdkk References: <200507161815.j6GIFMCX003035@keith.ezwind.net> <42D951B2.10800@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <004701c58a37$79ec97b0$117da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Need contact information for dkdkk > 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > > >>>>I paid over $1100 for my dual 133 BeBox. I bought it during the "dot > ... > > Granted, on specific items, as I said about the Curta in my other reply just > > now. We just can't have one person being irresponsible and manipulating the > > whole market for everyone else. It's one thing for prices to change over > > time, but to have one person come in out of nowhere and start f-cking with > > everything just because he can isn't right. > ... > > Paraphrase: when I do it, it is OK, but when the other guy does it more than me, > it is wrong. > > As has been pointed out, the price is set by the 2nd highest bidder, so DK isn't > to blame. If DK makes lower max price bids but which are still high enough to > win, it won't drop the price of auctions one whit. The only way to get the > average price down is to ask him to lose more auctions. Do you think he'll > agree to it? > > Besides, haven't we seen this a number of times before? fdbruce is selling all > sorts of "interesting" (to me) machines on ebay for the past few months. A year > or two ago he was one of those deep pocket buyers. He got tired and now they > are getting injected back into the system. No harm done. Well, other than he > is currently selling a "in need of repairs" Sol-20 and separately a microcomplex > 80/64 video mod board which obviously originally was part of the at modified > Sol-20 (without this board, that Sol won't do anything). > > DK's intentions are not our business. I doubt he is using them to test a > grinding machine. These machines will appear again. > > How many people on this list have systems, most of which will sit in a pile > somewhere until they get resold on ebay or traded for some other system? Isn't > this a waste? How is it much different from DK's presumed "sin" of hoarding? > > I agree with what was said above completely. The only thing that will harm the hobby long term is if people pay very little or nothing for classic machines so there is no reason for the owners to sell them instead of scrapping them. Most people who blow allot of cash on any hobby and get bored will sell the collectable back to other hobbyists eventually. Overpaying on a public auction site just gets more people digging through their collection to turn up more of the same for sale. A waste to me would be a private collector having multiple copies of a desirable and somewhat rare machine/part/manual/etc and sitting on it for a few decades. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Jul 16 13:52:57 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:52:57 -0500 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <200507161714.j6GHEEJp002554@keith.ezwind.net> References: <42D936A9.8080009@vzavenue.net> <200507161714.j6GHEEJp002554@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050716135257.5995b6ae.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:05:16 -0400 "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" wrote: > >>> Get over it snd take the long view. It makes our collections > >worth > more. > > That's ridiculous! Sellam is not crying that he couldn't afford to > win one or two specific auctions because of Dennis K(full surname > unknown). He is pointing out that our hobby suddenly has this guy > mysterious person who is being an irresponsible renegade. > It almost sounds like the label 'irresponsible renegade' means this person isn't in collusion with a group of bidders. And didn't we have a long discussion about the unethical practices of colluding bidders awhile back? From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jul 16 14:08:28 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:08:28 -0400 Subject: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D951B2.10800@pacbell.net> References: <200507161815.j6GIFMCX003035@keith.ezwind.net> <42D951B2.10800@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <42D95B2C.nail79U11FI65@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > We just can't have one person being irresponsible and manipulating > the whole market for everyone else. Interesting economic theory. Look up "monopsomy". This is where there is only a single buyer for a good. Usually this arises in e.g. command economies (think Russia and ten-year-plans). Your twist on this is that dkdkk is such a deep-pocket buyer that he is causing prices to rise for everyone else. This isn't monopsomy as it's usually used, but maybe it's a monopsomy in a auction economy. Admittedly even though thousands of the machines you're talking about were produced, there usually is a small number for sale each year because there aren't many left and those that are left don't move all that often. So to paraphrase you and put it into my terms: capitalistic economies can lead to monopolies. You're saying that they also lead to a monopsomy in this case. I gotta think about that some more. Tim. From jrice54 at blackcube.org Sat Jul 16 14:09:40 2005 From: jrice54 at blackcube.org (James Rice) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:09:40 -0500 Subject: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <004701c58a37$79ec97b0$117da418@game> References: <200507161815.j6GIFMCX003035@keith.ezwind.net> <42D951B2.10800@pacbell.net> <004701c58a37$79ec97b0$117da418@game> Message-ID: <42D95B74.6030402@blackcube.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > >I agree with what was said above completely. > >The only thing that will harm the hobby long term is if people pay very >little or nothing for classic machines so there is no reason for the owners >to sell them instead of scrapping them. Most people who blow allot of cash >on any hobby and get bored will sell the collectable back to other hobbyists >eventually. Overpaying on a public auction site just gets more people >digging through their collection to turn up more of the same for sale. > > >A waste to me would be a private collector having multiple copies of a >desirable and somewhat rare machine/part/manual/etc and sitting on it for a >few decades. > Exactly!!! If it is worth the effort of placing on ebay, VCM or any other venue, then that is doing the hobby a service regardless of ultimate price. If percieved value of an item falls below the cost of placing it up for sale, it becomes not worth the effort and will result in more equipment sent to the land fill or to the scrapper. As for the hoarding issue, sometimes I collect several examples of one machine. Sometimes it's for spare parts, for display of a different version of the OS, for development or for future trade/sale to finance my own collection. The ones I do have multiple examples are mostly older Macs and Mac clones that have no "real" current value but I couldn't stand to see a perfectly good box being dumpstered, or NeXT slabs - not exactly rare but they will get that way eventually and so will be good trade goods or resale items in the near future. As for manuals, I think they should be scanned into pdf's for furture availability as downloads. James -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 16 14:43:51 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:43:51 -0400 Subject: FDC Gap Length? Message-ID: <0IJQ008O4K3ZZHJ5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: FDC Gap Length? > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:55:05 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Hi Guys, > >I've been doing a bit more work on my replacement for TeleDisk, and I have >it working quite nicely, however I do have one area that I could some help >with... > >The 765 FDC requires two "Gap Length" values, one for formatting (total gap >between sectors), and one for writing... I have been unable to find any >information about calculating these values from arbitrary sectors/track, >encoding and transfer rate. All of the documents I have found simply give a >table of suggested values for common disk formats, but give no hint as to >how to calculate them for uncommon or arbritary formats. (for example, the >fairly common 9x512 format is not included in the table). > >Currently, I am using the values from the table, and some "guesses" for >values for some other formats which I have tried, however I do not know >how to derive the correct value for these items. A couple hours on Google >turned up numerous articals, ALL of which either: > a) use a single fixed value > b) use the NEC table > c) call then "magic" numbers > or > d) say they can't provide more information on how to select GPL due to > lack of information. > >With the 765, I cannot determine the gap length used on the original >disk, so the best I can do is to try and determine a suitable gap length >when formatting based on the # sectors, sector size, encoding method, >transfer rate and drive type.... > >Can anyone provide any clues? > >Regards, >Dave The total number of bytes, gaps plus data, must not exceed the total number of possible byts on the media at nominal rotation speed. When formatting the last gap is longer than the track so that you write gap until you see index to fill out the track. For reading there is a minimum number of bytes for the gap and if memory serves 16 (decimal) is it for DD and 10 for SD. These are not optimum for writing however. For writing you need to insure there are enough gap bytes in a gap to assure the minimum needed for PLL data seperators to aquire and track after the splice point. The splice point is the location on media when after reading sector-n and finding that sector n is next then switching to write. The result is always a discontinuity in the mid gap area from switching in the erase head and beginning the first gap byte written. Is there a calculation, NO. Unless your formatting your own, then it's use biggest gaps that allow sector data and a resonable end gap on off speed drives. Most of the time you have to know how that disk was formatted originally to arrive at the correct values. Fortunatly there is a fair amount of wiggle room if you do not run too close (too close is below) to minimums. A good example of that is the RX50 (10sectors 512bytes on 5,25 floppy) as the 765A can read it but barely (not really) formats that correctly, to format that with non WD you need upD7265. hope that helps some. Allison From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jul 16 16:06:01 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:06:01 -0400 Subject: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Needcontact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <200507161729.j6GHTvHA002639@keith.ezwind.net> References: <42D936A9.8080009@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050716170601.00960100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:21 PM 7/16/05 -0400, Evan wrote: >Hit 'send' in the middle of cutting and pasting, sorry.... > >>>> Get over it snd take the long view. It makes our collections worth >more. > >That's ridiculous! Sellam is not crying that he couldn't afford to win one >or two specific auctions because of Dennis K(full surname unknown). Some >people may not like Sellam's word choice, but he's speaking up in defense of >all of us. He's not speaking for me! I respect Sellam but I think he's wrong here. I know Dennis (and I know his last name) and I see no reason to complain about what he buys on E-bay. It's a free country and he's free to buy whatever he wants and can afford. You don't know Dennis or what his reasons or goals are and you and Sellam have no more right to complain about him than you do about someone like Al Kossow who ALWAYS gets what he goes after on E-bay. He is pointing out that our hobby suddenly has this guy who is >being an irresponsible renegade. That is not only ridiculous, it's also slanderous! You know NOTHING about Dennis and it's completely irresponsible of you to make such a statement! Say, for example, that some rich person >heard a small part of the NPR story, or quickly scanned an article about >that Christie's auction, and decided in his own mind that, "Oh, old >computers are collectible and worth lots of money, I should invest in >some"... so the guy jumps out there, anonymously, and starts hoarding every >C64 and TRS-80 he can find for $500... would that be good for the hobby? >Would you be happy, James, because it ups the value of your C64 or TRS-80 >from $20 to $500? Or would you be ticked because some idiot who didn't do >his homework is crashing the entire market for those machines? > >That's just hypothetical; I'm sure we all strongly hope that Dennis K. turns >out to be responsible in the end, since according to Bill Maddox, he was >formerly associated with the Boston Computer Museum. > >Attention, Vince (vrs at msn.com) -- you're the only person on cctalk who said >you directly know who Dennis K. is. Vince isn't the only one that knows Dennis. I know him and I've known him for a couple of years. I didn't speak up sooner in the hope that this rediculous thread would die on it's own but when I won't stand by when you start slandering people that you don't know! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jul 16 16:15:57 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:15:57 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <200507161754.j6GHsFpV002798@keith.ezwind.net> References: <42D9451C.3040503@blackcube.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050716171557.00960340@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:45 PM 7/16/05 -0400, Evan wrote: >>>> Help me understand the problem. How is paying more in an auction being >"an irresponsible renegade"? What is the downside of someone paying more >for stuff other than raising our own costs. If I had deeper pockets, I'd >pay a lot more for thing I really wanted. > >There is nothing wrong with overpaying now and then if you can afford it. >I'd love to have a Curta 1 calculator, but I haven't got the spare five >grand. If I were rich, and saw one for sale immediately at $7,000, would I >buy it? Perhaps. But what if I started buying every Curta to be found for >that price, and refused to tell anyone my identity or intentions? Has Dennis "refused" to identify himself or his intentions? Have YOU written to him and asked him??? I'm sure you haven't! I've contacted him and talked to him and I have no complaints. If you had the courtesy to contact Dennis directly and ask him politely about his computer interest I'm sure he would be happy to explain to you but instead you attack him as an "irresponsible renegade". THAT is >irresponsible. Dennis's reasons are his own business! No one made you the police of computer sales! Assholes like you are the reason that I quit collecting HP calculators and dumped my entire collection! Joe From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jul 16 16:34:22 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:34:22 -0500 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050716171557.00960340@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <42D9451C.3040503@blackcube.org> <3.0.6.32.20050716171557.00960340@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200507161634.23072.pat@computer-refuge.org> Joe R. declared on Saturday 16 July 2005 04:15 pm: > At 01:45 PM 7/16/05 -0400, Evan wrote: > > But what if I started buying > > every Curta to be found for that price, and refused to tell anyone > > my identity or intentions? > > Has Dennis "refused" to identify himself or his intentions? Have > YOU written to him and asked him??? I'm sure you haven't! I've > contacted him and talked to him and I have no complaints. If you had > the courtesy to contact Dennis directly and ask him politely about his > computer interest I'm sure he would be happy to explain to you but > instead you attack him as an "irresponsible renegade". Ok, since it's clear that Sellam doesn't know how to contact Dennis, how do you expect him to ask Dennis about his intentions? Maybe someone who knows him could post what Dennis's intentions are to the mailing list, which have more of an effect on ending this thread than just bitching about wether or not he's doing the right thing without giving any explanation. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From news at computercollector.com Sat Jul 16 16:46:22 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:46:22 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <200507161634.23072.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200507162154.j6GLsHJn008062@keith.ezwind.net> Joe, I sent TWO messages to his ebay account, both very polite and spaced a few weeks apart. So take your "I'm sure" assumptions and put them somewhere else... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 5:34 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Need contact information for dkdkk Joe R. declared on Saturday 16 July 2005 04:15 pm: > At 01:45 PM 7/16/05 -0400, Evan wrote: > > But what if I started buying > > every Curta to be found for that price, and refused to tell anyone > > my identity or intentions? > > Has Dennis "refused" to identify himself or his intentions? Have > YOU written to him and asked him??? I'm sure you haven't! I've > contacted him and talked to him and I have no complaints. If you had > the courtesy to contact Dennis directly and ask him politely about his > computer interest I'm sure he would be happy to explain to you but > instead you attack him as an "irresponsible renegade". Ok, since it's clear that Sellam doesn't know how to contact Dennis, how do you expect him to ask Dennis about his intentions? Maybe someone who knows him could post what Dennis's intentions are to the mailing list, which have more of an effect on ending this thread than just bitching about wether or not he's doing the right thing without giving any explanation. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From news at computercollector.com Sat Jul 16 16:52:40 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:52:40 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <200507162154.j6GLsHJn008062@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200507162200.j6GM0Xw4008126@keith.ezwind.net> Also -- neither messaged was answered. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 5:46 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Need contact information for dkdkk Joe, I sent TWO messages to his ebay account, both very polite and spaced a few weeks apart. So take your "I'm sure" assumptions and put them somewhere else... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 5:34 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Need contact information for dkdkk Joe R. declared on Saturday 16 July 2005 04:15 pm: > At 01:45 PM 7/16/05 -0400, Evan wrote: > > But what if I started buying > > every Curta to be found for that price, and refused to tell anyone > > my identity or intentions? > > Has Dennis "refused" to identify himself or his intentions? Have > YOU written to him and asked him??? I'm sure you haven't! I've > contacted him and talked to him and I have no complaints. If you had > the courtesy to contact Dennis directly and ask him politely about his > computer interest I'm sure he would be happy to explain to you but > instead you attack him as an "irresponsible renegade". Ok, since it's clear that Sellam doesn't know how to contact Dennis, how do you expect him to ask Dennis about his intentions? Maybe someone who knows him could post what Dennis's intentions are to the mailing list, which have more of an effect on ending this thread than just bitching about wether or not he's doing the right thing without giving any explanation. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jul 16 17:02:28 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:02:28 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <200507161634.23072.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20050716171557.00960340@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42D9451C.3040503@blackcube.org> <3.0.6.32.20050716171557.00960340@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050716180228.00793c70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:34 PM 7/16/05 -0500, Pat wrote: >Joe R. declared on Saturday 16 July 2005 04:15 pm: >> At 01:45 PM 7/16/05 -0400, Evan wrote: >> > But what if I started buying >> > every Curta to be found for that price, and refused to tell anyone >> > my identity or intentions? >> >> Has Dennis "refused" to identify himself or his intentions? Have >> YOU written to him and asked him??? I'm sure you haven't! I've >> contacted him and talked to him and I have no complaints. If you had >> the courtesy to contact Dennis directly and ask him politely about his >> computer interest I'm sure he would be happy to explain to you but >> instead you attack him as an "irresponsible renegade". > >Ok, since it's clear that Sellam doesn't know how to contact Dennis, how >do you expect him to ask Dennis about his intentions? He can use E-bay's system. That's how I contacted him. Go to an E-bay page that has Dennis's user id and click on it and it will open a form that you can enter your message in and e-bay will send the message to him and along with the sender's real E-mail address. Dennis can reply directly if he sees fit. Obviously the complainers have made no real effort to contact Dennis. And no, I will not give out Dennis's name or address without his permission. I'd do the same for any for any of you and I think he deserves the same consideration. I think the only reason that we're having this entire argument is that Dennis isn't a member of this list. I haven't heard any complaints about Al or myself or anyone else on this list over-paying on E-bay. I agree with James Rice, if I see something that I WANT on E-bay NO-ONE is going to outbid me on it! I once paid OVER $500 for a single plug in ROM for the HP-41 and I don't regret it a bit! > >Maybe someone who knows him could post what Dennis's intentions are to >the mailing list, which have more of an effect on ending this thread >than just bitching about wether or not he's doing the right thing >without giving any explanation. I don't see that Dennis owes an explaination to this list and I won't speak for him. I've already sent him a message about this idiocy. He can respond if he wants to but personally I wouldn't blame him if he just ignored the whole thing. Joe > >Pat >-- >Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Sat Jul 16 17:08:58 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <200507161846.j6GIkd21003219@keith.ezwind.net> References: <42D951B2.10800@pacbell.net> <200507161846.j6GIkd21003219@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5324.68.6.79.45.1121551738.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> > That is NOT what I said. I said it's one thing to overpay on a stand-alone > basis; what Dennis K. is doing is overpaying on a consistent basis. Very > different things. As far as I know, there is no Ministry of Classic Computers that sets what each item "should" sell for. The value of an item in a market is, by definition, what the seller pays. And since this dkdkk is buying via ebay, in an auction format, it's not like dkdkk is saying "you have this item listed at $25, I'll pay $250". There are other bidders involved who are willing to pay something very close to, but not quite, what dkdkk ends up paying. So dkdkk is not singularly responsible for "high prices" of items on ebay. I interpret Sellam's point as being all this really interesting equipment is going into a "black hole" and disappearing. It's the same problem in any field with rare antiquities - some valuable (in the information and research sense) items disappear into private collectins, where they can't be studied by others in the field, or appreciated by the public. Whereas on this list I've seen people post a question like "I have a tape in X format, but no reader - can anyone help", and the one known person with that obscure tape reader will offer to read the tape and convert it to a more usable format. Jeff From blkline at attglobal.net Sat Jul 16 17:49:37 2005 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:49:37 -0400 Subject: FREE to a good home -- Amiga books and manuals Message-ID: <42D98F01.7080802@attglobal.net> Hi gang. First off, let me say that this is my first post to this list. I have followed some of the classic computing USENET lists but find the SPAM content to be too high anymore. I was only recently introduced to the classic computing website but I have really enjoyed lurking and reading about the many machines you are all working on. It's really been a joy to follow this list. My thanks to the gentleman I met at Dayton who pointed me here. I don't remember your name, but you were in the upper lot and had some DECpacks sitting near your pickup. They attracted me like a moth to a flame! Anyways, I've always enjoyed classic computers and I have a particular interest in DEC PDP-11s. I cut my teeth on RSTS/E running on a PDP-11/34a and while my laptop runs rings around my 11/34a, I find the visceral pleasures of blinking lights and clacking drive heads totally lacking in the new machines. I'm a ham operator who also appreciates the warm glow of tube equipment, but that's another story... The point of this post is that I have in my posession the following books: The AmigaDOS Manual (Commodore-Amiga, Inc.) Advanced Amiga BASIC (Tom R Halfhill and Charles Brannon) Mastering AmigaDOS (Jeffrey Stanton and Dan Pinal) and the best of the lot: An Amiga binder with the owner's manuals: Introduction to Amiga Flow ... Idea Processor for the Amiga Computer Amiga Basic I'd like to send them to someone who would appreciate them. Any takers? Barry From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Jul 16 17:57:31 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:57:31 -0700 Subject: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <200507161729.j6GHTvHA002639@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507161729.j6GHTvHA002639@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42D990DB.20605@pacbell.net> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > That's just hypothetical; I'm sure we all strongly hope that Dennis K. turns > out to be responsible in the end, since according to Bill Maddox, he was > formerly associated with the Boston Computer Museum. Just to set the record straight, an acquaintance of mine claims to have met him through their mutual connections to the Computer Museum. I don't know any more than this, but it would seem to indicate that Dennis has an interest in computer history rather than simply being an "investor" who heard something on NPR, etc. --Bill From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 16 17:58:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 15:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050716180228.00793c70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Ugh, another monster spawned. On Sat, 16 Jul 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >Ok, since it's clear that Sellam doesn't know how to contact Dennis, how > >do you expect him to ask Dennis about his intentions? > > He can use E-bay's system. That's how I contacted him. Go to an E-bay I tried twice, first politely and then perhaps not so politely, but in either case he passed up the opportunity to return the "hello". > entire argument is that Dennis isn't a member of this list. I haven't heard > any complaints about Al or myself or anyone else on this list over-paying > on E-bay. Because we KNOW that Al is doing something for the benefit of the entire community (and we KNOW you don't have deep pockets ;) But we don't know what Dennis is up to and so I, for one, don't like it when someone is snarfing up practically everything in sight and paying ridiculous sums for it to boot which is causing unnecessary inflation. Look, if he was just buying one of something and then moving on to the next bright shiny object then it wouldn't be so bad, but in many cases he's buying multiples of the same god damn thing and jacking the price up on those things to unnatural levels. It's rather silly. > I agree with James Rice, if I see something that I WANT on E-bay > NO-ONE is going to outbid me on it! I once paid OVER $500 for a single plug > in ROM for the HP-41 and I don't regret it a bit! Fine, whatever, blow all your money on whatever you want. But if I'M only willing to pay $X for something which happens to be what most of the market agrees it's worth, and then someone ignorant of market value comes along and severely screws up the market by paying $3X just because they can wipe their ass with money, I have every right in the world to be pissed off at that person. You wouldn't like it either. I had a project where I was putting together a personal collection for a very wealthy individual, and even though I had an almost unlimited budget, I *still* was very shrewd with my purchases because I didn't want to screw it up for everyone else. My client actually chastised me for bidding too timidly. But I didn't feel it was necessary to needlessly waste their money or inflate the market for that period of time when I was unleashed on it with a mission and a credit card. This hobby, much like everything else, is its own ecosystem. And when something comes in and throws the balance of the ecosystem off, there's going to be noise. I just happen to be making it again this time because I see it as a threat. As I've said time and again, I don't want this hobby becoming the sport of kings. This hobby was made by guys and gals who held on to old computers because they knew it mattered and like to tinker with them, and I don't want it to be taken over by people with large bank accounts, especially if it's just an investment to them. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Sat Jul 16 18:26:25 2005 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:26:25 -0500 Subject: Newsbreak: NPR: -.retrobox.- Message-ID: When I was at J.D. Edwards (R.I.P.), Retrobox handled reselling the company's old computers. They offered employees a "special price," but it was hardly a deal. >From what I know, Retrobox deals mainly with PC hardware from large corporate accounts and resells it at a fairly high price. Bob Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 01:23:39 -0500 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Newsbreak: NPR: -.retrobox.- 1997?!? I'm really surprised to not have heard of them before now. I checked on their website... I've been by their place dozens if not hundreds of times in the past 7 years (not that I'd expect a large sign saying "Turn Left for Old Computers". I'd love to hear what people find, but, again, from their web pages, it looked like they a) don't know much about non-PC equipment (look at the Sun systems for sale), and b) think the stuff's made of solid gold. -ethan From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jul 16 19:26:28 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:26:28 -0400 Subject: S100 RAM replacements - 2147's on Godbout boards In-Reply-To: <200507161719.j6GHJEWZ014096@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <006501c58a66$2c4df150$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> JDR listed it as 55nS which I thought was incredibly fast for an S100 system where 200nS was more common. It is indeed a 4kx1 chip according to the product listing. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Barry Watzman Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 1:19 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: S100 RAM replacements - 2147's on Godbout boards The 2147 was a mainframe cache static memory chip. It is extremely fast, I think in the 35 nSec range, and uses less power than most of the static memory chips more commonly used in S-100 systems, although being a static memory chip, it is not "low power" by any stretch of the imagination. My recollection is that it's a 4kx1 chip with the same pinout as the TI 4044 and almost all of the other 4kx1 static memory chips, and that you can actually substitute or mix 4044's and 2147's (the 4044's are nothing like as fast, but in a 2 to 4 MHz S-100 system, you only need 150 to 250 nSec). However, please check this out, as it's possible that the 2147 was 1kx4 instead of 4kx1. I don't know why no one else used this chip, but it is a fantastic static memory chip. From blkline at attglobal.net Sat Jul 16 19:23:35 2005 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:23:35 -0400 Subject: FREE to a good home -- Amiga books and manuals In-Reply-To: <42D98F01.7080802@attglobal.net> References: <42D98F01.7080802@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <42D9A507.3010901@attglobal.net> Barry L. Kline wrote: > The point of this post is that I have in my posession the following books: > > The AmigaDOS Manual (Commodore-Amiga, Inc.) > Advanced Amiga BASIC (Tom R Halfhill and Charles Brannon) > Mastering AmigaDOS (Jeffrey Stanton and Dan Pinal) > > and the best of the lot: > > An Amiga binder with the owner's manuals: > > Introduction to Amiga > Flow ... Idea Processor for the Amiga Computer > Amiga Basic > > I'd like to send them to someone who would appreciate them. Any takers? > The books are spoken for. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jul 16 19:24:15 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:24:15 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk References: Message-ID: <005a01c58a65$dd929bb0$117da418@game> Not that I have unlimited funds or even collect the same type of equipment that is causing the debate here, but exactly where is this headed? There seems to be alot of hostility to collectors outside of the list with the same deep pockets a few of you in here have (and use when needed). I am starting to feel that the hostility a few of you mega collectors have against ebay is realy a fear that somebody else can get their hands on equipment that might of ended up in your collections cheaper through contacts instead of a "fair" open market. Is this going to turn into what has happened in the stamp market where dealers were caught price fixing material at auctions for their profit? Will raking some big spender over the coals (because he did not spend "fair market value") realy help out the collecting public at all? Am I going to get bitched at if I find a $200 item for $5 and snag it without paying "the fair market value"? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 16 19:45:35 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:45:35 -0400 Subject: S100 RAM replacements - 2147's on Godbout boards Message-ID: <0IJQ00315Y2TFYQ4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> The 2147 us a 4kx1 part with speeds ranging from 70ns (in 1982) to as fast as 45ns. In later years they got down to 25ns. In the time frame they appeared in S100 boards ram was either slow (greater than 250ns) or fast (sud 70ns) with the costs to go with it. To build a 200ns board you needed ram faster than 200ns to allow for propagation delays in the interface and decode logic. So the 2147 was a choice. I may add they ate current like mad when selected around 160ma @5v and in standby it dropped to 20ma so board layout was had to be very good. Allison > >Subject: RE: S100 RAM replacements - 2147's on Godbout boards > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:26:28 -0400 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >JDR listed it as 55nS which I thought was incredibly fast for an S100 >system where 200nS was more common. It is indeed a 4kx1 chip according >to the product listing. > >Rich > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Barry Watzman >Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 1:19 PM >To: cctech at classiccmp.org >Subject: S100 RAM replacements - 2147's on Godbout boards > > > >The 2147 was a mainframe cache static memory chip. It is extremely >fast, I think in the 35 nSec range, and uses less power than most of the >static memory chips more commonly used in S-100 systems, although being >a static memory chip, it is not "low power" by any stretch of the >imagination. > >My recollection is that it's a 4kx1 chip with the same pinout as the TI >4044 and almost all of the other 4kx1 static memory chips, and that you >can actually substitute or mix 4044's and 2147's (the 4044's are nothing >like as fast, but in a 2 to 4 MHz S-100 system, you only need 150 to 250 >nSec). However, please check this out, as it's possible that the 2147 >was 1kx4 instead of 4kx1. > >I don't know why no one else used this chip, but it is a fantastic >static memory chip. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 16 18:39:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 00:39:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: S100 RAM replacements In-Reply-To: <003201c589bd$7095d8e0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> from "Richard A. Cini" at Jul 16, 5 00:18:37 am Message-ID: > I decided to run a memory test on some boards I have and I found a > bad chip. It's on a CompuPro RAM14 and the chip is a MM2147J. None of my [...] > Can anyone help me with a suitable cross for this chip...and a > source? My usual haunts don't show stock on this number. I can't help with suppliers, and none of my data books give crosses for this chip, but I can tell you that it's a 4K * 1 static RAM. The pinout is : 1 : A0 2 : A1 3 : A2 4 : A3 5 : A4 6 : A5 7 : Dout 8 : WE/ 9 : Ground 10 : CS/ 11 : Din 12 : A11 13 : A10 14 : A9 15 : A8 16 : A7 17 : A6 18 : Vcc The data sheet I have mentions a 60ns version, it sounds like a pretty fast chip for the time. I can't believe an S100 board needs something that fast. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 16 19:09:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:09:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D936A9.8080009@vzavenue.net> from "James Rice" at Jul 16, 5 11:32:41 am Message-ID: > What's the problem? Someone has deeper pockets? There is always > someone who has more money. Get over it snd take the long view. It > makes our collections worth more. You say this as though it's a Good Thing. Personally, I can't see why. I don't collect computers (or cameras, or anything else for that matter) as an investment for my old age. I collect them becuase I am truely interested in them. Finding out how they work, the clever bits of design that went into them, that sort of thing. If my collection became financially worthless I wouldn't worry. I'd carry on hacking them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 16 19:18:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:18:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D94EEC.5020305@vzavenue.net> from "James Rice" at Jul 16, 5 01:16:12 pm Message-ID: > > Evan, I will l have to just respectfully disagree with you and Sellam. > I don't see anything wrong with it, but that is my opinion and everyone > knows the old saw about opinions. They usually do stink to everyone > else but the owner. I don't _like_ it (I wish we could go back to the time when interesting classic computers turned up at radio rallies for \pounds 10.00). But I don't see anything wrong with it. If he wants to spend his money in that way, then there's nothing any of us can do. Yes, it's bad for the hobby, but... -tony From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jul 16 20:01:31 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:01:31 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D9ADEB.nail98J11PXTZ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > This hobby was made by guys and gals who held on to [...] My personal advice is: chill out. For many years I built most of my life (certainly all my spare time) in an effort to archive obsolete software from certain minicomputer systems. PDP-11's, -10's, DG Novas, etc. I had lots of fun. A small fraction of the world seemed to have some appreciation for what I was doing, and that was enough. But in the past 5 years the "data archiving" world has gone big-business. Defense contractors/aerospace companies are collecting good chunks of a billion dollars for doing nothing. Museums go off and do their stuff and the world never sees the results (if any) publicly. It frustrates me every time I think about it. But what can I do? The world at large doesn't care about sharing the results of old digital archives, and I'm in effect airbrushed out of the picture. So I find something else to do. I've got a day job running a $10 Billion peripheral that keeps me busy most of the time. There's enough frustration and heartache there. (Also some satisfaction, too.) The rest of my time is spent tinkering with complex electromechanical systems for fun, definitely not in any attempt to make the world a better place. I am having fun, for the most part. The most frustration comes when I decide to "look back" and see how nothing that I did made any difference in the end. Oh well, it was fun at the time. Look for that instead - don't focus so much on acquiring/trading/valueing stuff in your case. Tim. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 16 20:12:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <005a01c58a65$dd929bb0$117da418@game> Message-ID: I was going to ignore this as usual but there are some things here that definitely need replying to. On Sat, 16 Jul 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > I am starting to feel that the hostility a few of you mega collectors have > against ebay is realy a fear that somebody else can get their hands on > equipment that might of ended up in your collections cheaper through > contacts instead of a "fair" open market. This doesn't make any sense, but what I think you're trying to say is that the "mega collectors" don't want other people to have what they do? I guess I can consider myself a "mega collector" but I harbor no such feelings. The only other way to parse your sentence makes my head hurt if I try to respond, so I won't bother. > Is this going to turn into what has happened in the stamp market where > dealers were caught price fixing material at auctions for their profit? What are you insinuating? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 16 20:16:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D9ADEB.nail98J11PXTZ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Jul 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: > So I find something else to do. I've got a day job running a $10 Billion > peripheral that keeps me busy most of the time. There's enough Ok, I'm curious. You keep mentioning this. What is this "peripheral"? :) > better place. I am having fun, for the most part. The most frustration > comes when I decide to "look back" and see how nothing that I did made > any difference in the end. Oh well, it was fun at the time. Look for I would not say that at all. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sat Jul 16 20:37:59 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:37:59 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D9ADEB.nail98J11PXTZ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <42D9ADEB.nail98J11PXTZ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <42D9B677.4050701@compsys.to> >Tim Shoppa wrote: >>This hobby was made by guys and gals who held on to [...] >> >> > >My personal advice is: chill out. > >For many years I built most of my life (certainly all my spare time) in >an effort to archive obsolete software from certain minicomputer systems. >PDP-11's, -10's, DG Novas, etc. I had lots of fun. A small fraction >of the world seemed to have some appreciation for what I was doing, and >that was enough. > >But in the past 5 years the "data archiving" world has gone big-business. >Defense contractors/aerospace companies are collecting good chunks of >a billion dollars for doing nothing. Museums go off and do their stuff >and the world never sees the results (if any) publicly. It frustrates >me every time I think about it. But what can I do? The world at large >doesn't care about sharing the results of old digital archives, and I'm >in effect airbrushed out of the picture. > >So I find something else to do. I've got a day job running a $10 Billion >peripheral that keeps me busy most of the time. There's enough >frustration and heartache there. (Also some satisfaction, too.) >The rest of my time is spent tinkering with complex electromechanical >systems for fun, definitely not in any attempt to make the world a >better place. I am having fun, for the most part. The most frustration >comes when I decide to "look back" and see how nothing that I did made >any difference in the end. Oh well, it was fun at the time. Look for >that instead - don't focus so much on acquiring/trading/valueing stuff >in your case. > >Tim. > > Jerome Fine replies: SORRY - YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE AT LEAST ONE FAN!!!!!!!!!! YOUR COLLECTION OF RT-11 (mostly DECUS) SOFTWARE IS MY IDEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As some of you realize, there is now a collection of RT-11 Binary distributions available for RT-11 hobby users under the Mentec license for use with SIMH. The file is really to burn a CD, but can be directly used with SIMH as in: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ ATTACH RQ0: RT11DV10.ISO SET RQ0: LOCK BOOT RQ0: If anyone needs any help with RT-11 or the RT-11 Freeware CDs, please ask. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From unibus at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 20:49:03 2005 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:49:03 +1000 Subject: EDUC-8 Computer Information and Construction In-Reply-To: References: <200507021700.j62H03qr082930@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I've started compiling the available information on the Electronics Australia EDUC-8 computer at the URL: http://educationaldigitalmicrocomputer.blogspot.com/ Regards, Garry From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jul 16 20:49:01 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:49:01 -0500 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk References: Message-ID: <000c01c58a71$b5fd2190$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Slamming a collector because they are buying a lot of stuff on ebay is completely inappropriate for this list. Kill this thread. Jay From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Sat Jul 16 20:55:49 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:55:49 -0500 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D9BAA5.2040205@vzavenue.net> Tony Duell wrote: >I don't collect computers (or cameras, or anything else for that matter) >as an investment for my old age. I collect them becuase I am truely >interested in them. Finding out how they work, the clever bits of design >that went into them, that sort of thing. If my collection became >financially worthless I wouldn't worry. I'd carry on hacking them. > >-tony > > > Neither do I Tony. It's not an investment, my retirement fund or anything else but a hobby. I collect what I do because I like unique hardware or operating systems and I like to figure out what makes them tick. There is a thrill in owning a system that used to cost megabucks but I managed to get for a few dollars. James -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jul 16 20:55:48 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:55:48 -0400 Subject: Distribution disks for RSX-11M??? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050716215548.00a1c4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I picked up a pile of 8" floppy disks recent and I finally got around to looking them today and found some distribution disks for something. Some of the GenRad circuit board test stations used DEC computers as controllers and these disk came from GenRad. The box says "GRnet Release 3.0.2 (for RSX-11M 3.2)". I'm not sure if these are distribution disks for RSX-11M or only for some kind of software that runs under RSX-11M. Anyone know anything about this? There are five disks in the set and they're still new and unused and sealed in plastic. Joe From jrice54 at blackcube.org Sat Jul 16 21:00:03 2005 From: jrice54 at blackcube.org (James Rice) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:00:03 -0500 Subject: My apology to the list Message-ID: <42D9BBA3.2050103@blackcube.org> I sent my last reply to that other thread before reading Jay's request to kill the thread. My bad. James -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jul 16 21:04:33 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:04:33 -0500 Subject: TI-990 recently posted to this list Message-ID: <008001c58a73$e05a17c0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Don't know if anyone else pursued it.... I emailed the guy and received about 6 very nice pictures of the TI990, disk drives, and peripherals he has. In a word, it's simply a gorgeous system. Looks to be mint condition. One six foot rack with the TI990 cpu and programmers front panel, and four "dishwasher style" disk drive units with media. The terminals are TI as well and perfectly retro. Even the racks are original TI racks. All said, a very very nice machine. However, he seemed a little too key to inform me that he knew the system cost $250,000.00 USD years ago. My suspicion is he thinks he can get at least 100K for it ;) Not to mention, I believe the system is located in the middle east but I'm waiting on confirmation from him on that. I wont be actively trying to obtain this system, just felt like asking about it :> Jay West From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jul 16 21:16:01 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 19:16:01 -0700 Subject: Distribution disks for RSX-11M??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050716215548.00a1c4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050716215548.00a1c4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > I picked up a pile of 8" floppy disks recent and I finally got around to >looking them today and found some distribution disks for something. Some of >the GenRad circuit board test stations used DEC computers as controllers >and these disk came from GenRad. The box says "GRnet Release 3.0.2 (for >RSX-11M 3.2)". I'm not sure if these are distribution disks for RSX-11M or >only for some kind of software that runs under RSX-11M. Anyone know >anything about this? There are five disks in the set and they're still new >and unused and sealed in plastic. > > Joe A RSX-11M 3.2 distribution would have taken 6 RL01 diskpacks, so it sounds like you have GRnet Release 3.0.2. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jul 16 21:17:20 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 22:17:20 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D9BAA5.2040205@vzavenue.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050716221720.00a0c8a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:55 PM 7/16/05 -0500, James Rice wrote: >Tony Duell wrote: > >>I don't collect computers (or cameras, or anything else for that matter) >>as an investment for my old age. I collect them becuase I am truely >>interested in them. Finding out how they work, the clever bits of design >>that went into them, that sort of thing. If my collection became >>financially worthless I wouldn't worry. I'd carry on hacking them. >> >>-tony >> >> >> >Neither do I Tony. It's not an investment, my retirement fund or >anything else but a hobby. I collect what I do because I like unique >hardware or operating systems and I like to figure out what makes them >tick. There is a thrill in owning a system that used to cost megabucks >but I managed to get for a few dollars. That's one of the parts that I most enjoy. It's like a treasure hunt to me and I enjoy the trill of discovery. That's why I have little respect for people that want to do nothing but sit at their desk and buy off of E-bay. And I have NO patience when they start whining and complaining about E-bay prices! If they don't like E-bay prices then get out and find their own stuff! There's plenty of it available. For example, Friday I picked up TEN FH 8" Shugart floppy drives in minty condition AND a HP 9835A AND a Diablo RK-05 compatible disk drive. Cost = $0.00 Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jul 16 21:22:43 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 22:22:43 -0400 Subject: Distribution disks for RSX-11M??? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050716215548.00a1c4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050716215548.00a1c4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050716222243.00a10e00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:16 PM 7/16/05 -0700, Zane wrote: >> I picked up a pile of 8" floppy disks recent and I finally got around to >>looking them today and found some distribution disks for something. Some of >>the GenRad circuit board test stations used DEC computers as controllers >>and these disk came from GenRad. The box says "GRnet Release 3.0.2 (for >>RSX-11M 3.2)". I'm not sure if these are distribution disks for RSX-11M or >>only for some kind of software that runs under RSX-11M. Anyone know >>anything about this? There are five disks in the set and they're still new >>and unused and sealed in plastic. >> >> Joe > >A RSX-11M 3.2 distribution would have taken 6 RL01 diskpacks, so it >sounds like you have GRnet Release 3.0.2. OK, in other words, five new scratch disks :-) I just figured I should be sure before I erased them. Joe From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jul 16 21:48:34 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 22:48:34 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk References: <3.0.6.32.20050716221720.00a0c8a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00c601c58a7a$0f7c1340$117da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 10:17 PM Subject: Re: Need contact information for dkdkk > > > There is a thrill in owning a system that used to cost megabucks > >but I managed to get for a few dollars. > > That's one of the parts that I most enjoy. It's like a treasure hunt to > me and I enjoy the trill of discovery. That's why I have little respect for > people that want to do nothing but sit at their desk and buy off of E-bay. > And I have NO patience when they start whining and complaining about E-bay > prices! If they don't like E-bay prices then get out and find their own > stuff! There's plenty of it available. For example, Friday I picked up > TEN FH 8" Shugart floppy drives in minty condition AND a HP 9835A AND a > Diablo RK-05 compatible disk drive. Cost = $0.00 > > Joe > Some of the earlier 68k Macs used to cost $10K a pop, and can be had for a few dollars today. Maybe oneday when I can afford a warehouse I might get into larger machines. Anyway ebay is one source for things along with newsgroups, friends who have old equipment at work, hardware forums, garagesales, scaptlots, etc. Talking to people who used to use the stuff is half the fun. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 16 23:21:29 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:21:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Charles Simonyi to marry Martha Stewart? Message-ID: I read this in the Globe* tabloid tonight whilst standing in line at the grocery store, so take this with a dash of pepper and some cumin perhaps, but the story is that Charles Simonyi of Xerox PARC and Microsoft fame is supposedly marrying Martha Stewart**. I've met Mr. Simonyi and, if true, I can say she couldn't have picked a nicer guy ;) * a tabloid in the US is generally considered a gossip rag ** for those who may not know, Martha Stewart is the reigning media queen of home decorating and crap like that. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrice54 at blackcube.org Sat Jul 16 23:33:18 2005 From: jrice54 at blackcube.org (James Rice) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:33:18 -0500 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050716221720.00a0c8a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050716221720.00a0c8a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42D9DF8E.4090809@blackcube.org> Joe R. wrote: > That's one of the parts that I most enjoy. It's like a treasure hunt to >me and I enjoy the trill of discovery. That's why I have little respect for >people that want to do nothing but sit at their desk and buy off of E-bay. >And I have NO patience when they start whining and complaining about E-bay >prices! If they don't like E-bay prices then get out and find their own >stuff! There's plenty of it available. For example, Friday I picked up >TEN FH 8" Shugart floppy drives in minty condition AND a HP 9835A AND a >Diablo RK-05 compatible disk drive. Cost = $0.00 > > Joe > > > > I enjoy getting out and scrounging as much as the next person. Unfortunately, I work 60-80 hours a week which cuts into time for treasure hunting therefore ebay has to be my primary source a lot of the time. I do frequent the LowEndMac swap list, check out surplus places in the DFW area when I'm out of service calls and network with some other collectors who share my specific interests too. I've been known to drive to Austin on a Saturday just to check out Goodwill there. My biggest bitch is that electronics surplus stores seem to be dying out. As new equipment gets cheaper and cheaper, less seems to be ending up in store and more at the recycler's dump. As an example, I really miss Software Etc in Allen. As a Mac collector, it was my second home. They survived on resale of older PeeCee stuff. As new equipment got cheaper, the profit from older stufff grew slimmer. Finally they closed the store. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jul 16 23:43:55 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 00:43:55 -0400 Subject: Charles Simonyi to marry Martha Stewart? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D9E20B.2050406@atarimuseum.com> Maybe between the two of them they can make the perfect home-friendly desktop GUI ;-) Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I read this in the Globe* tabloid tonight whilst standing in line at the >grocery store, so take this with a dash of pepper and some cumin perhaps, >but the story is that Charles Simonyi of Xerox PARC and Microsoft fame is >supposedly marrying Martha Stewart**. I've met Mr. Simonyi and, if true, >I can say she couldn't have picked a nicer guy ;) > >* a tabloid in the US is generally considered a gossip rag > >** for those who may not know, Martha Stewart is the reigning media queen >of home decorating and crap like that. > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.16/50 - Release Date: 7/15/2005 From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Sun Jul 17 05:11:14 2005 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 06:11:14 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested? In-Reply-To: <42D98F01.7080802@attglobal.net> References: <42D98F01.7080802@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050717060441.01cebc28@pop.cogeco.ca> FREE for pick-up only: Canon PC Printer 80 microfilm reader and printer. Micro 80, 1985 - 1987 PC and Byte, 1990's Radio and TV News and Radio Electronics, 1949 - 1964 Approx. Located in Windsor Ontario, about two miles south of downtown Detroit Michigan. E-mail if interested. Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 519-254-4991 cfox1 at cogeco.ca Check out The Camcorder Kindergarten at www.chasfoxvideo.com From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jul 17 06:28:45 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:28:45 -0400 Subject: FDC Gap Length? Message-ID: <20050717112843.GKHJ11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Allison, >Is there a calculation, NO. Unless your formatting your own, then >it's use biggest gaps that allow sector data and a resonable end gap >on off speed drives. Most of the time you have to know how >that disk was formatted originally to arrive at the correct values. >Fortunatly there is a fair amount of wiggle room if you do not run >too close (too close is below) to minimums. I know how the disk was originally formatted to the extent that I know the sector size and the number of sectors on the track. I had assumed that it worked the way you described ... my problem is that I cannot make sense of the values in the NEC supplied table. Using the IBM System 3740 (FM) and System 34 (MFM) disk format specifications, I tried working the NEC tables backward to get the "number of available bytes on a track" which they started with. I worked it through for both 8" and 5.25" drives in each format type, and the problem is that the results are not consistant. Using a given drive type and encoding method, for each sector size, number of sectors/track, and format GPL values in the NEC table, I get a "total bytes on track" values which are quite different - within a few 100 bytes, but you can make them all come out much closer by adjusting the gap length. In other words, I want to do a calculation something like: Total number of bytes assumed to be available on the track - track overhead - (#sectors * per-sector overhead) [not including gap] - (#sectors * data bytes/sector) / #sectors = actual sector gap length (for format) However the values from the NEC table do not fit such a calculation, because for each sector-size/number-of-sectors in the NEC table, you work out a "total number of bytes assumbed to be available on the track" which is only within a few 100 of the value worked out for other sector-size/number-of-sectors combinations at the same drive type and encoding method. For example, if you begin with a "total number of bytes assumed to be available on the track" which you worked out from 512 byte sectors, and reverse the calculation for 1024 byte sectors, the gap length you arrive at is different from the one in the NEC table. Another way to look at it is that by tweaking the sector GPL, you can always get a "total number of bytes" which is within number-of-sectors/track" of the "optimim value" you were aiming for, however the values in the NEC table often result in "total number of bytes" values which are a couple of 100 away from each other. Unfortunately the 765 based FDC in the PC is very limiting, and does not allow me to read the raw format information, nor can I determine the GPL that was used on the original disk - the only other option is to calculate a suitable GPL based on the format information. If no calculation is possible, can anyone point me at a more complete table of suggested GPLs? The NEC table has some large holes, for example 9x512 and 10x512 are missing. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jul 17 07:25:30 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:25:30 -0400 Subject: FDC Gap Length? In-Reply-To: <20050717112843.GKHJ11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050717112843.GKHJ11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <42DA4E3A.nailF3R11FOHO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > the gap length you arrive at is different from the one in the NEC table > [for different sector sizes] Part of the calculation is the time it takes the data separator to re-sync after each gap. Now, a "true" 765 doesn't have a data separator so maybe they leave this out. It's also true that this number ought to be nearly constant depending on sector sizes. Do you have the Intel 8272 data sheet? (This was Intel's part number for their 765 clone. It may not just be a clone but the exact same mask...). IIRC there are more details/examples/math in the 8272 data sheet, including some recommendations for data separators and the good/bad of different types. Tim. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 17 07:31:50 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:31:50 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D9DF8E.4090809@blackcube.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20050716221720.00a0c8a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050716221720.00a0c8a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050717083150.00982900@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:33 PM 7/16/05 -0500, James wrote: >Joe R. wrote: > >> That's one of the parts that I most enjoy. It's like a treasure hunt to >>me and I enjoy the trill of discovery. That's why I have little respect for >>people that want to do nothing but sit at their desk and buy off of E-bay. >>And I have NO patience when they start whining and complaining about E-bay >>prices! If they don't like E-bay prices then get out and find their own >>stuff! There's plenty of it available. For example, Friday I picked up >>TEN FH 8" Shugart floppy drives in minty condition AND a HP 9835A AND a >>Diablo RK-05 compatible disk drive. Cost = $0.00 >> >> Joe >> >> >> >> >I enjoy getting out and scrounging as much as the next person. >Unfortunately, I work 60-80 hours a week which cuts into time for >treasure hunting therefore ebay has to be my primary source a lot of the >time. I do frequent the LowEndMac swap list, check out surplus places >in the DFW area when I'm out of service calls and network with some >other collectors who share my specific interests too. I've been known >to drive to Austin on a Saturday just to check out Goodwill there. My >biggest bitch is that electronics surplus stores seem to be dying out. That's definitely a problem. I used to have six good sources in this area and now I'm down to two. The only good part of that is that one of them is picking up a lot of the business from two of the former ones and I have this one "trained" to watch out for the kind of stuff that I'm interested in so I'm a LOT of good stuff from him lately. I'm not having to do nearly as much running around and I'm not having to deal with some of the other loonies. >As new equipment gets cheaper and cheaper, less seems to be ending up in >store and more at the recycler's dump. You just have to find the recyclers! With the mountains of PCs out there now every town has as at least one. They may setup to deal only with PCs but they all get occasional S-100, HP and other worthwhile computers and since they're not part of what they deal with they'll usually sell them CHEAP. As an example, I really miss >Software Etc in Allen. As a Mac collector, it was my second home. They >survived on resale of older PeeCee stuff. As new equipment got cheaper, >the profit from older stufff grew slimmer. Finally they closed the store. Yeah there was a trift store in the area that used to be THE place for people dropping off computers. I got a lot of good deals there but they got out of the computer business :-( Joe > >-- >www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 17 07:45:10 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:45:10 +0000 Subject: FDC Gap Length? In-Reply-To: <20050717112843.GKHJ11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050717112843.GKHJ11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <1121604310.31970.17.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-17 at 07:28 -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > If no calculation is possible, can anyone point me at a more complete table of > suggested GPLs? The NEC table has some large holes, for example 9x512 and 10x512 > are missing. In case it's useful, I've got the following in the Torch Manta SCSI- floppy controller documentation (amongst others): 512 byte sectors (5.25" or 3.5" media): FM recording, 4 sectors/track, gap3 size is 175 bytes of FFh. FM recording, 5 sectors/track, gap3 size is 31 bytes of FFh. MFM recording, 9 sectors/track, gap3 size is 66 bytes of 4Eh. 1024 byte sectors (5.25" or 3.5" media): FM recording, 2 sectors/track, gap3 size is 255 bytes of FFh. MFM recording, 4 sectors/track, gap3 size is 255 bytes of 4Eh. MFM recording, 5 sectors/track, gap3 size is 66 bytes of 4Eh. 512 byte sectors (8" media): FM recording, 7 sectors/track, gap3 size is 149 bytes of FFh. FM recording, 8 sectors/track, gap3 size is 62 bytes of FFh. MFM recording, 14 sectors/track, gap3 size is 120 bytes of 4Eh. MFM recording, 15 sectors/track, gap3 size is 73 bytes of 4Eh. MFM recording, 16 sectors/track, gap3 size is 33 bytes of 4Eh. 1024 byte sectors (8" media): FM recording, 3 sectors/track, gap3 size is 255 bytes of FFh. FM recording, 4 sectors/track, gap3 size is 157 bytes of FFh. MFM recording, 7 sectors/track, gap3 size is 255 bytes of 4Eh. MFM recording, 8 sectors/track, gap3 size is 128 bytes of 4Eh. can't remember what controller IC the board uses now though - I'm reasonably sure it's not a 765. The Manta docs only talk about gaps 1-4, however I know some of my Acorn docs reference a gap5 which sits between the gap4 at the end of the last sector on the track and the index marker - I have no idea what that's supposed to do as it's listed as being 0 bytes long in the Acorn examples! cheers Jules From bernd at kopriva.de Sun Jul 17 08:39:26 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:39:26 +0200 Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: <1121434635.28978.10.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050717121901.06AD939548@linux.local> Hi, i'm not sure, if anyone in germany if familiar with any Whitechapel stuff ... ... i stumbled into that game when searching for NS32xxx related items (which is one of my main interests). It's impossible, to get any spare parts here; my only information source, if some stuff pops up, is this mailing lists (and this does not happen very often). I got my (still not working) MG-1 from the U.K., but only, as i was given it for free (the shipping costs for the machine alone nearly killed me) Ciao Bernd On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:37:15 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: >On Fri, 2005-07-15 at 15:02 +0200, Bernd Kopriva wrote: >> Hi Jules, >> do you really want to keep it ???? :) ... >> ... otherwise, i will take it with open arms ! > >Heh - I'm glad someone's heard of it! MG-1 machines are reasonably hard >to get, but this is the first time I've seen anything else from >Whitechapel. > >I think I'll be picking it up sometime next week. If my assumption that >it's a MG-200 with better video, and that the MG-200 is just an MG-1 >with a faster CPU is correct, then hopefully they share the same OS >code. > >I've got no idea what state the machine's in or how complete it is. As >far as I know it was given to the current owner in working condition, >which hopefully means it has display, keyboard, and a hard disk in it - >we'll see! (It seemed important to save it quickly and worry about >things like that later :-) > >cheers > >Jules > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jul 17 09:20:05 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:20:05 -0400 Subject: FDC Gap Length? Message-ID: <0IJR00G24ZS3CTT1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: FDC Gap Length? > From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) > Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:25:30 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> the gap length you arrive at is different from the one in the NEC table >> [for different sector sizes] > >Part of the calculation is the time it takes the data separator to re-sync >after each gap. Now, a "true" 765 doesn't have a data separator so maybe >they leave this out. It's also true that this number ought to be nearly >constant depending on sector sizes. The base 765 expected there would be some form of external data seperator either digital or PLL. In 1981 none of the FDC chips had data speration as it was pushing the amount of variable hardware on the chip. In later years that was integrated into the chip. The gap will not be the same for all sector sizes as it's it serves the function of filling the space between sectors. The gaps are those bytes that are accounted for in the raw and formated disk space. >Do you have the Intel 8272 data sheet? (This was Intel's part number >for their 765 clone. It may not just be a clone but the exact same >mask...). IIRC there are more details/examples/math in the 8272 data >sheet, including some recommendations for data separators and the good/bad >of different types. Intel is a licensed mask. Their data sheet is not any more informative than NEC full data sheet and user manual, it may be easier to find 20+ years later. The IBM softsector floppy disk specification is the origin point for the whole show. I may add that the later chips are 765B or 7265 and Intel never did those. The differnce on those are coupled to gaps 4a and 4b and the index gaps. Those came into being with the 3.5" floppy. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jul 17 09:53:43 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:53:43 -0400 Subject: FDC Gap Length? Message-ID: <0IJS008CZ1C4GWR1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: FDC Gap Length? > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:28:45 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Hi Allison, > >>Is there a calculation, NO. Unless your formatting your own, then >>it's use biggest gaps that allow sector data and a resonable end gap >>on off speed drives. Most of the time you have to know how >>that disk was formatted originally to arrive at the correct values. >>Fortunatly there is a fair amount of wiggle room if you do not run >>too close (too close is below) to minimums. > >I know how the disk was originally formatted to the extent that I know >the sector size and the number of sectors on the track. > >I had assumed that it worked the way you described ... my problem is that >I cannot make sense of the values in the NEC supplied table. Effectively there are two sets. FM and MFM and the chip works differently for both. It's tied to FM allowing for gaps as short as 8bytes and MFM 16bytes. The length of gaps are related to mode FM having more flux transistions than MFM per bit and that most analog PLLs have a minimum number of transistions (time) they need to aquire. Obviously the gaps are made as long as possible allowing for the sectors containing data. Since sector length is variable gaps will be. FYI: due to waste longer sectors can end up with very long gaps. >Using the IBM System 3740 (FM) and System 34 (MFM) disk format specifications, >I tried working the NEC tables backward to get the "number of available bytes >on a track" which they started with. I worked it through for both 8" and 5.25" >drives in each format type, and the problem is that the results are not >consistant. Using a given drive type and encoding method, for each sector size, >number of sectors/track, and format GPL values in the NEC table, I get a "total >bytes on track" values which are quite different - within a few 100 bytes, but >you can make them all come out much closer by adjusting the gap length. > >In other words, I want to do a calculation something like: > > Total number of bytes assumed to be available on the track > - track overhead > - (#sectors * per-sector overhead) [not including gap] > - (#sectors * data bytes/sector) > / #sectors > = actual sector gap length (for format) > >However the values from the NEC table do not fit such a calculation, because >for each sector-size/number-of-sectors in the NEC table, you work out a "total >number of bytes assumbed to be available on the track" which is only within a >few 100 of the value worked out for other sector-size/number-of-sectors >combinations at the same drive type and encoding method. Yep thats true. >For example, if you begin with a "total number of bytes assumed to be available >on the track" which you worked out from 512 byte sectors, and reverse the >calculation for 1024 byte sectors, the gap length you arrive at is different >from the one in the NEC table. Another way to look at it is that by tweaking the >sector GPL, you can always get a "total number of bytes" which is within >number-of-sectors/track" of the "optimim value" you were aiming for, however the >values in the NEC table often result in "total number of bytes" values which are >a couple of 100 away from each other. Also you need the ECMA/ISO {ECMA-70} spec for formatting. They are somewhat different. The problem is that somewher in the gap there will be a splice point and there need to be enough gap bytes written after write is enabled to insure the new sector is roughly in the smae place as the old one. >Unfortunately the 765 based FDC in the PC is very limiting, and does not allow me >to read the raw format information, nor can I determine the GPL that was used on >the original disk - the only other option is to calculate a suitable GPL based on >the format information. The 765 does have a read diagnostic but it's not like the 1771/1791 read track that tried to read every byte including gaps. >If no calculation is possible, can anyone point me at a more complete table of >suggested GPLs? The NEC table has some large holes, for example 9x512 and 10x512 >are missing. They are missing because the table was written before the advent of 5.25 1.2 mb and 3.5" floppies and the 765A really doesn't do the 10x512 (it will read but format is not possible). The latter if done with 765A ends up truncating the gap4 badly if the drive is 2% fast. The later 7265 chip does it and you need the spc for that. The PC varient of the FDC is a cell based on the 765/7265 so unless there's a raw 765 on the board you can see you need to read between the line of the spec for THAT chip. There are subtle variations in the 765 look alikes and Tim and I encounted some of them while doing Fcopy. The test for 765/7265 is can it recalibrate more than 77 tracks. The 765 will only recalibate a maximum of 77 tracks, the 7265 can do up to 255. The other differnce is the 7265 does not write gap 4a/4b at all. Gap 4a coincides with index and gap 4b is the gap written after all sectors are formatted to the end of the track (index). Allison From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jul 17 10:10:29 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:10:29 -0400 Subject: FDC Gap Length? Message-ID: <20050717151028.ISWW11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Tim, >Part of the calculation is the time it takes the data separator to re-sync >after each gap. Now, a "true" 765 doesn't have a data separator so maybe >they leave this out. It's also true that this number ought to be nearly >constant depending on sector sizes. I would assume this is covered by the minimum requirement that Allison was talking about... Right now I am just trying to find the correct gap sizes for formatting. Then I will have to worry about the gap size for writing (which is different, as you obviously don't want to carry through to the beginning of the next sector). >Do you have the Intel 8272 data sheet? (This was Intel's part number >for their 765 clone. It may not just be a clone but the exact same >mask...). IIRC there are more details/examples/math in the 8272 data >sheet, including some recommendations for data separators and the good/bad >of different types. I do have the Intel data sheet and application notes, however they do not provide any additional information on selecting the Gap size - just the same "magic table" that NEC provides. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jul 17 10:10:39 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:10:39 -0400 Subject: FDC Gap Length? Message-ID: <20050717151034.ISYJ11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Jules, >On Sun, 2005-07-17 at 07:28 -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> If no calculation is possible, can anyone point me at a more complete table of >> suggested GPLs? The NEC table has some large holes, for example 9x512 and 10x512 >> are missing. > >In case it's useful, I've got the following in the Torch Manta SCSI- >floppy controller documentation (amongst others): > >512 byte sectors (5.25" or 3.5" media): > > FM recording, 4 sectors/track, gap3 size is 175 bytes of FFh. > FM recording, 5 sectors/track, gap3 size is 31 bytes of FFh. > MFM recording, 9 sectors/track, gap3 size is 66 bytes of 4Eh. > >1024 byte sectors (5.25" or 3.5" media): > > FM recording, 2 sectors/track, gap3 size is 255 bytes of FFh. > MFM recording, 4 sectors/track, gap3 size is 255 bytes of 4Eh. > MFM recording, 5 sectors/track, gap3 size is 66 bytes of 4Eh. > >512 byte sectors (8" media): > > FM recording, 7 sectors/track, gap3 size is 149 bytes of FFh. > FM recording, 8 sectors/track, gap3 size is 62 bytes of FFh. > MFM recording, 14 sectors/track, gap3 size is 120 bytes of 4Eh. > MFM recording, 15 sectors/track, gap3 size is 73 bytes of 4Eh. > MFM recording, 16 sectors/track, gap3 size is 33 bytes of 4Eh. > >1024 byte sectors (8" media): > > FM recording, 3 sectors/track, gap3 size is 255 bytes of FFh. > FM recording, 4 sectors/track, gap3 size is 157 bytes of FFh. > MFM recording, 7 sectors/track, gap3 size is 255 bytes of 4Eh. > MFM recording, 8 sectors/track, gap3 size is 128 bytes of 4Eh. > > >can't remember what controller IC the board uses now though - I'm >reasonably sure it's not a 765. Thanks - I'm not sure this helps me, as the numbers given are different than the NEC table. Here's what I have: (Sector-size sectors/track GPL1 GPL2 - all numbers are in decimal) GPL1 = gap-length when reading/writing GPL2 = gap=length when formatting 8" FM: 128 26 7 27 256 15 14 42 512 8 27 58 1024 4 71 138 2048 2 200 255 4096 1 200 255 8" MFM: 256 26 14 36 512 15 27 84 1024 8 53 116 2048 4 153 255 4096 2 200 255 8192 1 200 255 5" FM: 128 18 7 9 128 16 16 25 256 8 24 48 512 4 70 135 1024 2 200 255 2048 1 200 255 5" MFM 256 18 10 12 256 16 32 50 512 8 42 80 1024 4 128 240 2048 2 200 255 4096 1 200 255 Clearly the 200/255 are the maximum values. I have tried working the numbers without these entries, and still cannot come up with a calculation. As you can see the gap sizes differ quite a bit from the ones that you have documented - with the 765, this is only one of several gaps, and the controller does not provide complete access to the raw format like a 179x controller would. I assume the gap sizes need to decrease for formats which have an extra sector (or two) over the NEC table, however I do not know by how much ... Any additional table entries, or information on how to calculate this would be much appreciated. >The Manta docs only talk about gaps 1-4, however I know some of my Acorn >docs reference a gap5 which sits between the gap4 at the end of the last >sector on the track and the index marker - I have no idea what that's >supposed to do as it's listed as being 0 bytes long in the Acorn >examples! Normally the last gap is filled from the end of the last sector until the physical index mark occurs. The 765 appears to do this automatically as part of the "Format Track" command. For a controller like the 179x, you need to keep providing filler bytes until the physical end of track. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From menadeau at comcast.net Sun Jul 17 10:37:10 2005 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:37:10 -0400 Subject: Charles Simonyi to marry Martha Stewart? References: Message-ID: <008d01c58ae5$67e08b40$0b01a8c0@Mike> Charles Simonyi and Martha Stewart have been an item for years, but this is the first I've heard that it was serious. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 12:21 AM Subject: Charles Simonyi to marry Martha Stewart? > > I read this in the Globe* tabloid tonight whilst standing in line at the > grocery store, so take this with a dash of pepper and some cumin perhaps, > but the story is that Charles Simonyi of Xerox PARC and Microsoft fame is > supposedly marrying Martha Stewart**. I've met Mr. Simonyi and, if true, > I can say she couldn't have picked a nicer guy ;) > > * a tabloid in the US is generally considered a gossip rag > > ** for those who may not know, Martha Stewart is the reigning media queen > of home decorating and crap like that. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From GOOI at oce.nl Sun Jul 17 11:27:25 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:27:25 +0200 Subject: FDC Gap Length? Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D93@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > As you can see the gap sizes differ quite a bit from the ones that you > have documented - with the 765, this is only one of several gaps, and > the controller does not provide complete access to the raw format like > a 179x controller would. Yes, the 179x controllers have the Read Track and Write Track command. I can remember that from the time I wrote my own "DOS" for the 6800-based machine with a homebrew floppy controller based on the 1793 IIRC (1981). You put *all* data in RAM (sector data, gap data, ID mark, sync fields and what more, and then issue the Write Track command. That's how I got my 5.25" floppies formatted. Make sure that you have slack (extra gap bytes at the end ot the "track" in RAM, because depending on rotation fluctuations the last gap is not a constant number of bytes. > I assume the gap sizes need to decrease for formats which have an extra > sector (or two) over the NEC table, however I do not know by how much > ... Any additional table entries, or information on how to calculate > his would be much appreciated. If you do not have the 179x data sheet, aks me. Only then I will go up to the attick and start searching for it. Otherwise, I will not go there because, believe me, it *hot* there, afetr two weeks of more than 25"C! > Normally the last gap is filled from the end of the last sector until > the physical index mark occurs. The 765 appears to do this automatically > as part of the "Format Track" command. For a controller like the 179x, > you need to keep providing filler bytes until the physical end of > track. Correct :~) I found out the hard way, after I "upgraded" the software from single to double density ... I used polling software to see when DRQ is asserted and then write the data byte. With double density, the max time allowed before a data byte *must* be written, is too short for whatever clever constructed polling loop (in assembler of course). So I "improved" the hardware to generate an interrupt on DRQ and I could format floppies in double density. But after some time when I tried to format a floppy the whole system hung. I got more interrupts than anticipated, and that was because of the extra bytes wanted by the FDC. It works sometimes, but that is just because of the tolerances of the rotation speed. Now in the year 2005, I am probably going to desing a floppy controller interface for the Core and I/O Board set, but that's an other story :~) greetz, - Henk, PA8PDP. From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sun Jul 17 12:08:20 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:08:20 +0200 Subject: Charles Simonyi to marry Martha Stewart? References: <008d01c58ae5$67e08b40$0b01a8c0@Mike> Message-ID: <001f01c58af2$233a01d0$2101a8c0@finans> > > but the story is that Charles Simonyi of Xerox PARC and Microsoft fame is > > supposedly marrying Martha Stewart Not to forget the not well-known but never-the-less remarkable Regnecentralen systems. If I remember correctly, he was involved in the development of an Algol compiler for the DASK and/or GIER system. Charles is the protector of the danish computer museum : http://www.datamuseum.dk/site_dk/index.shtml DASK means something like "danish arithmetic sequence calculator", and GIER something with Geophysics.... Nico From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 17 12:09:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Charles Simonyi to marry Martha Stewart? In-Reply-To: <008d01c58ae5$67e08b40$0b01a8c0@Mike> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jul 2005, Michael Nadeau wrote: > Charles Simonyi and Martha Stewart have been an item for years, but this is > the first I've heard that it was serious. The story said they'd been dating for a few years and met in 1997. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jul 17 12:41:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:41:36 -0400 Subject: FDC Gap Length? Message-ID: <0IJS00LWS93WA773@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: FDC Gap Length? > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 11:10:39 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Hi Jules, > >>On Sun, 2005-07-17 at 07:28 -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> If no calculation is possible, can anyone point me at a more complete table of >>> suggested GPLs? The NEC table has some large holes, for example 9x512 and 10x512 >>> are missing. >> >>In case it's useful, I've got the following in the Torch Manta SCSI- >>floppy controller documentation (amongst others): >> >>512 byte sectors (5.25" or 3.5" media): >> >> FM recording, 4 sectors/track, gap3 size is 175 bytes of FFh. >> FM recording, 5 sectors/track, gap3 size is 31 bytes of FFh. >> MFM recording, 9 sectors/track, gap3 size is 66 bytes of 4Eh. >> >>1024 byte sectors (5.25" or 3.5" media): >> >> FM recording, 2 sectors/track, gap3 size is 255 bytes of FFh. >> MFM recording, 4 sectors/track, gap3 size is 255 bytes of 4Eh. >> MFM recording, 5 sectors/track, gap3 size is 66 bytes of 4Eh. >> >>512 byte sectors (8" media): >> >> FM recording, 7 sectors/track, gap3 size is 149 bytes of FFh. >> FM recording, 8 sectors/track, gap3 size is 62 bytes of FFh. >> MFM recording, 14 sectors/track, gap3 size is 120 bytes of 4Eh. >> MFM recording, 15 sectors/track, gap3 size is 73 bytes of 4Eh. >> MFM recording, 16 sectors/track, gap3 size is 33 bytes of 4Eh. >> >>1024 byte sectors (8" media): >> >> FM recording, 3 sectors/track, gap3 size is 255 bytes of FFh. >> FM recording, 4 sectors/track, gap3 size is 157 bytes of FFh. >> MFM recording, 7 sectors/track, gap3 size is 255 bytes of 4Eh. >> MFM recording, 8 sectors/track, gap3 size is 128 bytes of 4Eh. >> >> >>can't remember what controller IC the board uses now though - I'm >>reasonably sure it's not a 765. > >Thanks - I'm not sure this helps me, as the numbers given are different >than the NEC table. Here's what I have: The numbers you program into the 765 are not in bytes. Those are counter values (usually a up counter) so that putting in 255 means 1, the however the count values are prescaled such that in some cases putting in 254 does not yeild 2 of something but 4 or even 8 [(0-n) * base]. Example are HLT (head load time) and HUT (head unload time) and even they are affected by what the 8/4 mhz clock supplied. Byte counts like the gaps are similar. So a gap length if FBh might really be 4*16 gap bytes. One note: those counters have different prescale values for FM then MFM. Hope this helps and I'm really testing 25 year old memory from my NEC apps engineeing days. >Clearly the 200/255 are the maximum values. I have tried working the numbers >without these entries, and still cannot come up with a calculation. > >As you can see the gap sizes differ quite a bit from the ones that you have >documented - with the 765, this is only one of several gaps, and the controller >does not provide complete access to the raw format like a 179x controller >would. No it does not in the fullest sense. The WD and NEC designs are programtically as different as night and day. The level of internal automation is higher for the NEC but doing that takes control from the programmer. NEC used to have a part (upD371) that was like the 1771 in that it required a fair amount of processer attention at the per byte level to affect transfers especially formatting. Where the 765 family all the programmer supplies for formatting is the initial command and then the sector header info (CHRN) on a per sector IO. The result is smaller format buffer at the expense of limited format options. IE:the general layout of a track is allways the same save for gaps and sector lengths. >I assume the gap sizes need to decrease for formats which have an extra >sector (or two) over the NEC table, however I do not know by how much ... >Any additional table entries, or information on how to calculate this would >be much appreciated. Correct and the information provided may help in deciding what those counters corospond to. >>The Manta docs only talk about gaps 1-4, however I know some of my Acorn >>docs reference a gap5 which sits between the gap4 at the end of the last >>sector on the track and the index marker - I have no idea what that's >>supposed to do as it's listed as being 0 bytes long in the Acorn >>examples! > >Normally the last gap is filled from the end of the last sector until >the physical index mark occurs. The 765 appears to do this automatically >as part of the "Format Track" command. For a controller like the 179x, >you need to keep providing filler bytes until the physical end of track. There are two cases of gap 4, gap 4A(index mark) and gap 4B(EOT to index). I've seen gap 4b refered to as gap 5. In the nominal IBM gap 4A is index gap and 4B is the end of track filler gap. FYI: gap 4 it not optional on 765 and excluded in 7265. Functionally its use is been abused and sometimes not included (1771/1791 it's optional). Yes for the fill to EOT. The INDEX signal is important to the 765 for start of track, end of track and read fail. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 17 13:10:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:10:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: <20050717121901.06AD939548@linux.local> from "Bernd Kopriva" at Jul 17, 5 03:39:26 pm Message-ID: > lists (and this does not happen very often). I got my (still not working) MG-1 > from the U.K., but only, as i was given it for free (the shipping costs for > the machine alone nearly killed me) If it's any help, I've got some repair info, etc for the MG1, and will be happy to discuss diagnosis and repairs with you (or anyone else for that matter). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 17 12:57:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:57:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D9ADEB.nail98J11PXTZ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jul 16, 5 09:01:31 pm Message-ID: > a billion dollars for doing nothing. Museums go off and do their stuff > and the world never sees the results (if any) publicly. It frustrates This is something that annoys me too. Muesums acquire large collections of machines, software and documentation which then seems to be impossible to access. When I used to volunteer at Bletchley, I was not allowed to look at their documentation collection. OK, so I wanted some of the information to repair my own machines, but so what? I was not going to remove manuals permanently, or even temporarily. I was not going to damage the manuals. I just wanted to look something up. On this list there are people who will pull one of their machines apart to check some detail (be it mechanical, like 'which way round does this connector go?' or electronic 'what sort of signal should I be seeing on pin 4 of this chip?' I have never met a museum that will do anything like that. > me every time I think about it. But what can I do? The world at large > doesn't care about sharing the results of old digital archives, and I'm > in effect airbrushed out of the picture. All I can recomend is that you keep on doing it, because most of us here appreciate what you do. > > So I find something else to do. I've got a day job running a $10 Billion > peripheral that keeps me busy most of the time. There's enough > frustration and heartache there. (Also some satisfaction, too.) > The rest of my time is spent tinkering with complex electromechanical > systems for fun, definitely not in any attempt to make the world a > better place. I am having fun, for the most part. The most frustration > comes when I decide to "look back" and see how nothing that I did made > any difference in the end. Oh well, it was fun at the time. Look for > that instead - don't focus so much on acquiring/trading/valueing stuff > in your case. Agreed. I fool around with these old machines because I enjoy it. If I've helped one other person get a machien going, if my home-made schematics have helped someone, or if I've just encourages people to have a go, well that's enough for me. But I'll keep on playing around anyway, because it's something I enjoy doing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 17 13:03:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:03:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D9BAA5.2040205@vzavenue.net> from "James Rice" at Jul 16, 5 08:55:49 pm Message-ID: > Neither do I Tony. It's not an investment, my retirement fund or > anything else but a hobby. I collect what I do because I like unique > hardware or operating systems and I like to figure out what makes them Exactly. I want to understand how these amchines work at as low a level as possible. For me, the interesting machines have CPUs built from TTL and small PROMs/PALs, even bit-slice chips (AMD29xx, etc) are getting too complicated :-). I'll battle through the schematics and microcode (even produce said schematics if need be) until I understand what is going on. Maybe I'm one of the few people who can tell you what ever last gate in a PERQ 2 or an HP9810 is for. Which IMHO is a pity. I wish more people could appreciate the beauty in these machines. > tick. There is a thrill in owning a system that used to cost megabucks > but I managed to get for a few dollars. THat doesn't bother me at all, except that the interesting machines tended to be the expensive ones, and that I can't afford more than a few dollars (or pounds) now... -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 17 14:39:35 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:39:35 +0000 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121629175.31970.44.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-17 at 18:57 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > a billion dollars for doing nothing. Museums go off and do their stuff > > and the world never sees the results (if any) publicly. It frustrates > > This is something that annoys me too. Muesums acquire large collections > of machines, software and documentation which then seems to be impossible > to access. When I used to volunteer at Bletchley, I was not allowed to > look at their documentation collection. OK, so I wanted some of the > information to repair my own machines, but so what? I was not going to > remove manuals permanently, or even temporarily. I was not going to > damage the manuals. I just wanted to look something up. That really surprises me - I've never had a problem since I was there, and actively encourage people to come along if they want information for their own purposes; as you say it's no use if it's just locked away in a room. > On this list there are people who will pull one of their machines apart > to check some detail (be it mechanical, like 'which way round does this > connector go?' or electronic 'what sort of signal should I be seeing on > pin 4 of this chip?' I have never met a museum that will do anything like > that. Well I certainly have done on many an occassion with Bletchley's machines following public (and private) queries :-) The only cases where it's difficult tends to be with active display machines or with larger items tucked away in storage (as it can need several people to move them plus decent clear space to actually look at them!) I don't believe in these things being locked away where they don't serve any useful purpose - in an ideal world 90% of the collection would be on public display (whilst the remaining 10% was being worked on), with public access to the documentation / software archive - and active swapping around of stuff with other museums and private collectors would be encouraged. Problem is that we don't own any of the buildings at Bletchley, so at present we can only use what public space we're given - but hopefully one day... cheers Jules From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jul 17 15:03:50 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:03:50 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <1121629175.31970.44.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1121629175.31970.44.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42DAB9A6.nailHQK1X8QWN@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> [difficulty interacting with museums in my and Tony's experiences] > That really surprises me - I've never had a problem since I was there Maybe Tony and I have fundamentally "bad attitudes" or something. Even though Tony and I are by no means clones, compared to your average guy off the street we are probably indistinguishable :-). In this case "bad attitude" == knows the technical side of all the things we want the museum to be doing, but does not know the right language/ people to talk to. In my case, it may be worse, because I know several techies that deal regularly with the computer history museum, often they're volunteers in various technical projects, yet my queries to them yield nothing useful. I know it's all "work in progress" but from my viewpoint on the East Coast I don't even see progress (although there is some sign of work, or at least effort!) Tim. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jul 17 15:12:57 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:12:57 -0500 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: References: <42D9BAA5.2040205@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <20050717151257.06894782.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:03:10 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Neither do I Tony. It's not an investment, my retirement fund or > > anything else but a hobby. I collect what I do because I like > > unique hardware or operating systems and I like to figure out what > > makes them > > Exactly. I want to understand how these amchines work at as low a > level as possible. For me, the interesting machines have CPUs built > from TTL and small PROMs/PALs, even bit-slice chips (AMD29xx, etc) are > getting too complicated :-). I'll battle through the schematics and > microcode (even produce said schematics if need be) until I understand > what is going on. > I started thinking that way (I consider it a 'metaphysical approach') years ago, starting when the only 'direct' access I had to a computer was the dial-up ASR-33 connection to a timesharing system from a math classroom in High School. It's been a long, long. journey to go that direction with even a small subset of the hardware out there. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 17 15:53:44 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 20:53:44 +0000 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42DAB9A6.nailHQK1X8QWN@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <1121629175.31970.44.camel@weka.localdomain> <42DAB9A6.nailHQK1X8QWN@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <1121633624.31990.62.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-17 at 16:03 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: > >> [difficulty interacting with museums in my and Tony's experiences] > > That really surprises me - I've never had a problem since I was there > > Maybe Tony and I have fundamentally "bad attitudes" or something. Even > though Tony and I are by no means clones, compared to your average guy > off the street we are probably indistinguishable :-). > > In this case "bad attitude" == knows the technical side of all the things > we want the museum to be doing, but does not know the right language/ > people to talk to. Heh, possibly... I think a lot of the time museums spend too much time trying to attract people who can do a bit of everything - which is all well and good, but sometimes you just need people who are focused on one particular aspect of the daily running, and recognising how valuable they are can easily get overlooked. cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 17 15:53:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 21:53:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42DAB9A6.nailHQK1X8QWN@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jul 17, 5 04:03:50 pm Message-ID: > > >> [difficulty interacting with museums in my and Tony's experiences] > > That really surprises me - I've never had a problem since I was there > > Maybe Tony and I have fundamentally "bad attitudes" or something. Even Oh, I almost certainly do. I do not suffer fools or droids gladly, I don't like having restrictions put in my way for no good reason. And a museum that won't let somebody who is giving their time free of charge to help with the operation of that museum look at their collection of documentation is certainly doing the above. > though Tony and I are by no means clones, compared to your average guy > off the street we are probably indistinguishable :-). Aren't we both particle physicists? And DEC, HP9100, etc enthusiasts? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 17 16:05:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:05:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <1121633624.31990.62.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 17, 5 08:53:44 pm Message-ID: > Heh, possibly... I think a lot of the time museums spend too much time > trying to attract people who can do a bit of everything - which is all I tend to confuse Bletchley Park with the CCS, so I might be moaning about the wrong lot. But (IIRC) the CCS's method of using its members' knowedge leaves a lot to be desired. IIRC, the membership form asks for up to 4 computers that you have experience of. I had a serious problem with filling in that section. Should I list 4 machines that were relatively common, on the grounds that I'd then get to do something. Or should I list 4 rare machines, which I knew somewhat less about, on the grounds that I might well be the only person to have any knowledge of them at all? There is another problem, best illustrated by an example... Suppose you have a non-working HP9810 calculator (well, it's almost a computer :-)). You have a choice of 2 repairers. A) Worked ofr HP as a service engineer for many years. He's got the official service manual (which is a boardswapper guide), and can follow the instructions which are basically to replace all the plug-in PCBs until it starts working again. The fact that you can't get replacement boards any more is another matter... B) Has never worked for HP or any other computer company. But he was given a broken 9810 a few years back and spent a couple of months working out how to repair it. This guy can connect a logic analyser to an undocumented internal connector and trace the CPU microcode. He's got his own microcode listings and can thus tell just what the darn thing is doing. Now, who do you pick? There's also the problem that somebody having no experience of , but who is generally clueful about similar stuff might well be more use than somebody who's had a few months user-level experience of , but who has never gone further on any machine. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 17 16:28:21 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:28:21 -0500 Subject: TI-990 recently posted to this list References: <008001c58a73$e05a17c0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <00b401c58b16$773c9e90$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> By the way... just got confirmation from the seller, the machine is located in Lebanon. I imagine shipping would not be cheap. Again, I'm not going for it - just wanted to research out of curiousity. If someone wants a TI990 system, this is a beaut. Jay From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jul 17 16:38:16 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:38:16 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DACFC8.nailIEF1UZ3ME@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Aren't we both particle physicists? Ex-nuclear astrophysics to be divisive :-). > And DEC, HP9100, etc enthusiasts? Sure, although I was much heavier on the software and plug-boards- together-to-make-a-system side. See, even though any other person would regard the two of us as twins, I only think of the differences! Tim. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 17 16:53:16 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42DACFC8.nailIEF1UZ3ME@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jul 17, 5 05:38:16 pm" Message-ID: <200507172153.OAA13290@floodgap.com> > See, even though any other person would regard the two of us as twins, > I only think of the differences! Sounds like every pair of twins I've ever known personally ... -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If a seagull flies over the sea, what flies over the bay? ------------------ From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Jul 17 17:07:54 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:07:54 +0100 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Suppose you have a non-working HP9810 calculator (well, it's almost a > computer :-)). You have a choice of 2 repairers. > > A) Worked ofr HP as a service engineer for many years. He's got the > official service manual (which is a boardswapper guide), and can follow > the instructions which are basically to replace all the plug-in PCBs until > it starts working again. The fact that you can't get replacement boards > any more is another matter... > > B) Has never worked for HP or any other computer company. But he was > given a broken 9810 a few years back and spent a couple of months working > out how to repair it. This guy can connect a logic analyser to an > undocumented internal connector and trace the CPU microcode. He's got his > own microcode listings and can thus tell just what the darn thing is > doing. > > Now, who do you pick? B. Component level debugging and repair is a rare and valuable skill. Chances are, B could probably debug the thing down to a dead logic gate, whereas A would probably go down to board level and go looking for a new CPU microcode board or whatever. There's also the point of actually knowing what your tools are telling you and how to make the best use of the tools. It's no use knowing in how to use an oscilloscope if you don't know how to interpret the information it's giving you. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Set phasers on tickle! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 17 18:24:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 00:24:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: from "Philip Pemberton" at Jul 17, 5 11:07:54 pm Message-ID: > > Suppose you have a non-working HP9810 calculator (well, it's almost a > > computer :-)). You have a choice of 2 repairers. > > > > A) Worked ofr HP as a service engineer for many years. He's got the > > official service manual (which is a boardswapper guide), and can follow > > the instructions which are basically to replace all the plug-in PCBs until > > it starts working again. The fact that you can't get replacement boards > > any more is another matter... > > > > B) Has never worked for HP or any other computer company. But he was > > given a broken 9810 a few years back and spent a couple of months working > > out how to repair it. This guy can connect a logic analyser to an > > undocumented internal connector and trace the CPU microcode. He's got his > > own microcode listings and can thus tell just what the darn thing is > > doing. > > > > Now, who do you pick? > > B. Component level debugging and repair is a rare and valuable skill. Chances Of course... Perhaps I should have re-phrased that question. Who do you pick if all you've asked about is what experience A and B have of the machine. _On paper_, A seems to be the better 'qualified' -- he worked for the company, he's got the official manual. In practice, you'd want B. > are, B could probably debug the thing down to a dead logic gate, whereas A As indeed I have, several times (not all on the same 9810, I hasten to add :-)) > would probably go down to board level and go looking for a new CPU microcode > board or whatever. Odd you should pick that one. The CPU control board -- 09810-66513 -- which contains the microcode, is the only logic board I've not had to repair in a 98x0 machine.... Still, I am sure they can fail. > > There's also the point of actually knowing what your tools are telling you > and how to make the best use of the tools. It's no use knowing in how to use > an oscilloscope if you don't know how to interpret the information it's > giving you. Oh, absolutely. Good test equipment is useful, but it's not essential, and it's not a substitute for knowing what you are doing. Many people (not on this list I hasten to add) seem to think there's a magic box you can connect to a brokent that will tell you exactly what's wrong and how to fix it. Of course there isn't. I've said this many times, but it's worth repeating. In order to repair something, you should : Make measurements (and otherwise gather evidence as to the problem); Think about what the measuements are telling you; Then, and only then, replace anything. It is often possible to get the evidence you need without fancy test equipment. The person who moans 'I could fix this if only I had a logic analyser (or storage 'scope, or...)' is probably wrong. Not because such instruments are not useful, they are. But becasue even if he had them, he'd not be able to interpret the display. If he had the skill to do that, he could probably manage without the instruments. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 17 18:27:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 00:27:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42DACFC8.nailIEF1UZ3ME@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jul 17, 5 05:38:16 pm Message-ID: > > And DEC, HP9100, etc enthusiasts? > > Sure, although I was much heavier on the software and plug-boards- > together-to-make-a-system side. You mean you didn't pull your 9100 apart and work out how it all works inside. Pity. You missed out on what is, IMHO, the most beautiful design ever. To give you some idea how simple it is, there are well under 1000 transistors in there (this is a programmable scientific calculator, of course). IIRC, there are only 43 JK flip-flops and 1 SR flip-flop in a 9100B. An amaszingly small number... -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 17 19:28:48 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 00:28:48 +0000 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121646528.31970.94.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-17 at 22:05 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Heh, possibly... I think a lot of the time museums spend too much time > > trying to attract people who can do a bit of everything - which is all > > I tend to confuse Bletchley Park with the CCS, so I might be moaning > about the wrong lot. But (IIRC) the CCS's method of using its members' > knowedge leaves a lot to be desired. Can't really comment there I'm afraid, I've not had any dealings with the CCS direct - just with lots of their members on a case-by-case basis. I do get the impression that they're somewhat shrouded in bureaucracy though, which generally isn't to my liking in any situation! > IIRC, the membership form asks for up to 4 computers that you have > experience of. I had a serious problem with filling in that section. > Should I list 4 machines that were relatively common, on the grounds that > I'd then get to do something. Or should I list 4 rare machines, which I > knew somewhat less about, on the grounds that I might well be the only > person to have any knowledge of them at all? urgh, yeah. No idea what I'd do there either. Probably stick a big black line through the form and include a covering letter that explained why I'd done so! If they weren't flexible enough to handle that then there's something seriously wrong IMHO. It's not like there's any shortage of preservation work to be done outside of the CCS. > There is another problem, best illustrated by an example... > > Suppose you have a non-working HP9810 calculator (well, it's almost a > computer :-)). You have a choice of 2 repairers. > > A) Worked ofr HP as a service engineer for many years. He's got the > official service manual (which is a boardswapper guide), and can follow > the instructions which are basically to replace all the plug-in PCBs until > it starts working again. The fact that you can't get replacement boards > any more is another matter... > > B) Has never worked for HP or any other computer company. But he was > given a broken 9810 a few years back and spent a couple of months working > out how to repair it. This guy can connect a logic analyser to an > undocumented internal connector and trace the CPU microcode. He's got his > own microcode listings and can thus tell just what the darn thing is > doing. Definitely a B. I suppose ideally I'd like person A watching person B doing the work though, as otherwise they'll never learn anything! > There's also the problem that somebody having no experience of , but > who is generally clueful about similar stuff might well be more use than > somebody who's had a few months user-level experience of , but who > has never gone further on any machine. The former for sure. The most common faults causing system failure tend to be common to many systems - never underestimate general experience! cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 17 19:34:44 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TI-990 recently posted to this list In-Reply-To: <00b401c58b16$773c9e90$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jul 2005, Jay West wrote: > By the way... just got confirmation from the seller, the machine is located > in Lebanon. I imagine shipping would not be cheap. Again, I'm not going for > it - just wanted to research out of curiousity. If someone wants a TI990 > system, this is a beaut. I have some relatives nearby that could store it for someone who wants it :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jul 17 20:08:30 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 21:08:30 -0400 Subject: Altair successes Message-ID: <008601c58b35$35fbd030$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: After a few weeks of tinkering with my 8800b I think I've finally got it working satisfactorily (except for some bad RAM which was the subject of a prior email). I've got an EPROM programmed with the Turnkey Monitor, EPROM programming software for the SSM P1B board, and the driver software for the SSM V1B video board. Except for the RAM, everything works. The only thing I have to track down is why the video is displaying only black-on-white. Otherwise, I have to replace two switches on the front panel with flat-blade ones. Now I have to improve on the monitor so I can load something useful into memory :-) Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From anheier at owt.com Sun Jul 17 20:46:20 2005 From: anheier at owt.com (Norm and Beth Anheier) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:46:20 -0700 Subject: Apple ][ parts $5 sale! Message-ID: I need to clear out some space. I have Apple ][ super serial and I/O controller cards (with cables). I also have a Duodisk floppy drive and a Disk II floppy drive and a WICO command control joystick. $5 each + shipping, untested. Thanks! Norm From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jul 18 01:29:55 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 02:29:55 -0400 Subject: Old (relatively) cache chips References: Message-ID: <005801c58b62$25af52b0$117da418@game> Are 128Kx8 cache chips hard to find? I was toying with the idea of upgrading my 486 VLB system to 128MB of ram and I would need 512k cache to cache it all. The manual (Gigabyte GA-486VS) says I need 4 128Kx8 and 1 32Kx8 (tag) to do this (there are 8 256k chips plus tag in there now). From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Jul 18 01:46:40 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 23:46:40 -0700 Subject: VME SCSI (would sun3 vme scsi work?) References: <1085f1e4083b0b5f52d4ebe3dd1260da@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42DB5050.18A8B0F4@msm.umr.edu> the older sun 3 and early 4's such as the 4/260 and 4/280 should have a vme scsi board in it that would be worth about that much. more specific ones may be more valuable, but this would fill the bill as a "scsi" board for vme with fairly common drivers (sun bsd versions exist which should have drivers. i had some of these, but sold them some time ago. Al Kossow wrote: > Though, I'm a bit worried about time... I want it for a machine I'm > going to be exhibiting at VCF/Midwest and that's only 2 weeks away > now... shipping to/from Canada might take too long, and I don't have > that much to spend on getting this working. > > -- > > Before anyone else wastes their time, Mr Finnegan is willing to > pay FIFTEEN whole American Dollars for the board. > > Next time, just SAY how much you're willing to spend before I > waste my time looking for one. From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Mon Jul 18 02:44:53 2005 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:44:53 +0200 Subject: Goodnight, OS/2... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DB5DF5.8030009@ais.fraunhofer.de> Cini, Richard wrote: >OK, the inevitable Slashdot-type question...when will IBM open license OS/2 >(if at all)? There have been calls for this for years before IBM finally >nailed the coffin shut. > I am afraid this won't happen. Even the recent kernels, and the application set as well, is still full of old "compatibility" 16 bit code stemming from OS/2 1.x which was written by Microsoft. I have seen kernel sources containing "Copyright (c) Microsoft 198x" in most 16 bit assembler files. Besides, compiling the kernel is not a very simple issue because it requires certain versions of MASM, MSC 16 bit, MSC 32 bit, and IIRC also some version of IBM C. Third party code also exists IIRC, the exeunpack code that the loader uses to expand the packed LX format had been a binary-only library linked to the kernel. There are proprietary tools to build the thunking library DOSCALL1 which are available in binary only as well. It is truly amazing that the result from such a code base is still such a stable system. Given the kernel is already such a mess, I do not really want to know what dead bodies are still buried in the PM, WPS, and other subsystems. Let's say it this way: you probably wouldn't touch this code even with a long pole unless it'd make your income. But even if IBM has now - again - buried OS/2 (reminds me of those zombies which you could endlessly put into a grave - they'll despite come up again and again), you could still buy the successor ecomstation which is genuine OS/2 ander a different brand. This is promising, as not everything is lost, but as it shares the same above codebase, it diminishes chances of an open source. Regards Holger From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Mon Jul 18 07:06:26 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:06:26 -0400 Subject: YARC Transputer & Motorola boards on ebay Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE560@exchange.olf.com> Bernd et al, Total of 6 boards: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5220594983 Cheers, Ram From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jul 18 07:57:58 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 07:57:58 -0500 Subject: Charles Simonyi to marry Martha Stewart? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050718075352.04330b98@mail> At 11:21 PM 7/16/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I read this in the Globe* tabloid tonight whilst standing in line at the >grocery store, so take this with a dash of pepper and some cumin perhaps, >but the story is that Charles Simonyi of Xerox PARC and Microsoft fame is >supposedly marrying Martha Stewart**. I've met Mr. Simonyi and, if true, >I can say she couldn't have picked a nicer guy ;) Insert joke involving Hungarian notation and home decorating here. - John From classiccmp at knm.yi.org Mon Jul 18 08:24:00 2005 From: classiccmp at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lots of kit needs a good home - quick Message-ID: Hi Guys, I've got a lot of stuff in storage at my parents' office, but they have to move this weekend and I've been told they're not moving all my stuff, so it has to go. Unfortunatly, I'm now living on the other side of the atlantic, so I can't take it with me, so this is a call to everyone on the list to find homes for things :&) I'd much rather it go to someone who'll give it a good home than just put it on ebay or such. Some of it has sentimental value - I'm sure you know how it goes. Anyway - Fred's already arranging to pick up most of the DEC stuff, but there's a lot more. Take a look at a list and photos at http://pkl.net/~matt/stuff/forsale/ Like I said - it's all got to go by Sunday (although I might be able to hold onto stuff until tuesday/wednesday). I'll be back in the UK on Thursday, but there'll be someone around all week if you want to pick stuff up. Unfortunatly, I'm not sure I can handle shipping much of this. Please drop me a line if you want anything (and if you wanna make a contribution to my moving fund, that would be most appreciated). Or you can probably find me on irc.freenode.net #classiccmp as Matt --Matt London From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 18 08:40:06 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:40:06 -0400 Subject: AVAL Programmers? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050718094006.00987a10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone here know anything about this brand programmer? I picked up an AVAL plugin for programming BiPolar PROMs. Joe From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jul 18 08:50:08 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:50:08 -0500 Subject: VME SCSI (would sun3 vme scsi work?) In-Reply-To: <42DB5050.18A8B0F4@msm.umr.edu> References: <1085f1e4083b0b5f52d4ebe3dd1260da@bitsavers.org> <42DB5050.18A8B0F4@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200507180850.09426.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 18 July 2005 01:46, jim stephens wrote: > the older sun 3 and early 4's such as the 4/260 and 4/280 should have > a vme scsi board in it that would be worth about that much. > > more specific ones may be more valuable, but this would fill the bill > as a "scsi" board for vme with fairly common drivers (sun bsd > versions exist which should have drivers. And this, more common, board is what I'm looking for. :) > i had some of these, but sold them some time ago. Durn. Pat > Al Kossow wrote: > > Though, I'm a bit worried about time... I want it for a machine I'm > > going to be exhibiting at VCF/Midwest and that's only 2 weeks away > > now... shipping to/from Canada might take too long, and I don't > > have that much to spend on getting this working. > > > > -- > > > > Before anyone else wastes their time, Mr Finnegan is willing to > > pay FIFTEEN whole American Dollars for the board. > > > > Next time, just SAY how much you're willing to spend before I > > waste my time looking for one. -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 18 10:00:12 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:00:12 -0400 Subject: DEC M9700 board and cable? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050718110012.0097d9f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Anybody know what this is? It's a single width board with an ~ 5 foot cable attached. The other end of the cable has a DB-25M connector. The only markings on the board are "FLIP CHIP" and "cable connector 5010295B M9700". Joe From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 18 11:37:36 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk Message-ID: <200507181637.JAA01854@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, Glen Goodwin wrote: > >> Okay, so what do you hope to accomplish? Do you really think >> you can convince him -- or bully him -- into *not* buying >> whatever he wants at whatever price he's willing to pay??? > >Maybe. Maybe it'll be useful just to vent at him. Maybe it'll be useful >to let him know he's pissing off half the community with his stupid bids. > >-- Hi Is it possible that he is a fictitious person used by many venders as a shill bidder? Maybe he is bidding for some museum as well?? One used to be able to get things like the name of the person and where they lived from the ebay register but they have quite doing that. Dwight From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Jul 18 11:55:04 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:55:04 -0700 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <200507181637.JAA01854@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200507181637.JAA01854@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200507180955.05067.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 18 July 2005 09:37, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > > >On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, Glen Goodwin wrote: > >> Okay, so what do you hope to accomplish? Do you really think > >> you can convince him -- or bully him -- into *not* buying > >> whatever he wants at whatever price he's willing to pay??? > > > >Maybe. Maybe it'll be useful just to vent at him. Maybe it'll be useful > >to let him know he's pissing off half the community with his stupid bids. > > > >-- > > Hi > Is it possible that he is a fictitious person used by many > venders as a shill bidder? Maybe he is bidding for some museum > as well?? > One used to be able to get things like the name of the person > and where they lived from the ebay register but they have > quite doing that. > Dwight Didn't Jay request that this thread be dropped? I'm tired of having to delete all dkdkk related messages... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Jul 18 12:39:55 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:39:55 -0400 Subject: KDJ11 eproms / M7554-PB conversion? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:27:59 EDT." <42D7030F.7030501@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200507181739.j6IHdubK026866@mwave.heeltoe.com> Doc Shipley wrote: ... > Note that for both board styles, you have to add a 1K resistor to >enable the new ROMs. On yours you'll also need to clip a zero-ohm resistor. > > Your board is listed as the older artwork, and there aren't pictures, >but a description of what you need to do: > >"On the older artwork a similar mod is required, except you also have to >cut out a zero-ohm jumper. I don't have a picture yet, but, holding the >board with the backplane connector to the right and the front edge to >the left, and the ROMs at the bottom: the pads for the resistor are to >the left of the ROMs, and the zero ohm jumper is just above it. If you >are need to do this before I get the picture drawn, trace the circuit >from pin 27 of the ROM with an ohmeter." > > If you can scan your CPU board (at a decent resolution, I'd be glad >to see if I can match a location to that description and mark where the >work needs doing. I'm also probably not he only one who'd be willing to >look at it for you. That is a very kind offer, thanks. For the record this is a M7554-PB cpu board. I beeped out the zero ohm resistor which connects to pin 27 on the EPROMS. Pin 27 is A14 on a 27C256 and PGM# on a 27C128. The zero ohm (a resistor with a single black band) is just in front of what looks like a mask prom "LM8722 116C6". This is an unsocketed chip the same size as the EPROMs and next to them. I also found the site for the pullup, which pulls PGM# high when using 27C128's. It's site straddles the two EPROMS and is just above them. If you beep out the pads you find one connects to pin 27 on both EPROMs and one side connects to pin 28 on both (Vcc), which makes sense. My current digital camera is not very high res, sorry. Here are three 800k uncropped jpeg's. http://www.heeltoe.com/retro/KDJ11/IM001369.JPG http://www.heeltoe.com/retro/KDJ11/IM001370.JPG http://www.heeltoe.com/retro/KDJ11/IM001372.JPG If these are too poor just say so and I'll borrow a better camera. Having said all this I'm sort to tempted to leave the board unmodified and just erase and reprogram the 27C256's. Is there any downside to doubling up the 23-261E5/262E5 binary images and programming them into the 27C256's? -brad From list at saracom.com Mon Jul 18 12:46:23 2005 From: list at saracom.com (Max) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:46:23 -0400 Subject: Dilog DQ3153 board Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20050718134311.01dac250@mail.saracom.com> Hello, I have a DQ3153 board. Am I right in that its a TMSCP SCSI board for a qbus system? Is it of any use for a PDP11 or is it just for Qbus Vaxen? From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 18 12:49:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk Message-ID: <200507181749.KAA01905@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Lyle Bickley" ---snip--- >Didn't Jay request that this thread be dropped? I'm tired of having to delete >all dkdkk related messages... Sorry, I hadn't got that far into the mail. Dwight From list at saracom.com Mon Jul 18 12:49:58 2005 From: list at saracom.com (Max) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:49:58 -0400 Subject: 9 track tapes on Ebay. Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20050718134640.01db0400@mail.saracom.com> Hopefully I am not not violating the terms here. I have two 9 track tapes for sale on Ebay. From the label they appear to have Fortran versions 4.5A and 4.5A. I assume and it could be for a Vax VMS system. Anyway, opening bid is $10 plus actuall shipping. That is basically below what my time is worth to box them up and take them to a post office. I am parsing my collection a little and found them. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5220653722&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1 Thanks Max From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 12:50:18 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:50:18 -0400 Subject: TI-990 recently posted to this list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/17/05 8:34 PM, "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote: > On Sun, 17 Jul 2005, Jay West wrote: > >> By the way... just got confirmation from the seller, the machine is located >> in Lebanon. I imagine shipping would not be cheap. Again, I'm not going for >> it - just wanted to research out of curiousity. If someone wants a TI990 >> system, this is a beaut. > > I have some relatives nearby that could store it for someone who wants it > :) What country do you NOT have relatives in?!!?! From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 13:05:14 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:05:14 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <42D936A9.8080009@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: On 7/16/05 12:32 PM, "James Rice" wrote: >> >>> You don't set what an item is worth. >>> >>> The highest bidder does. >>> >>> >> >> Right, and that's the problem here. >> > What's the problem? Someone has deeper pockets? There is always > someone who has more money. Get over it snd take the long view. It > makes our collections worth more. But... What about Mr. Gates? :) From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Mon Jul 18 13:32:18 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:32:18 +0200 Subject: TI-990 recently posted to this list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050718203017.030d4468@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Anybody interested in my TI-990 with originel TI terminal and 800 printer ? I've had it turned on a long time ago but since I dont have any software to go with it I dont really know if it works. Been stored really nice and dry for ages. Up for swap (or possibly sale). Its located in the Netherlands. Cheers, Stefan. At 19:50 18-7-2005, you wrote: >On 7/17/05 8:34 PM, "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote: > > > On Sun, 17 Jul 2005, Jay West wrote: > > > >> By the way... just got confirmation from the seller, the machine > is located > >> in Lebanon. I imagine shipping would not be cheap. Again, I'm > not going for > >> it - just wanted to research out of curiousity. If someone wants a TI990 > >> system, this is a beaut. > > > > I have some relatives nearby that could store it for someone who wants it > > :) > >What country do you NOT have relatives in?!!?! ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jul 18 13:20:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TI-990 recently posted to this list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > >> By the way... just got confirmation from the seller, the machine is located > >> in Lebanon. I imagine shipping would not be cheap. Again, I'm not going for > >> it - just wanted to research out of curiousity. If someone wants a TI990 > >> system, this is a beaut. > > > > I have some relatives nearby that could store it for someone who wants it > > :) > > What country do you NOT have relatives in?!!?! I'm pretty sure I don't have any direct relations in Guam (at least as far as I know ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Jul 18 13:40:16 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:40:16 +0200 Subject: TI-990 recently posted to this list In-Reply-To: References: <00b401c58b16$773c9e90$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42DC13B0.23147.AC2014D8@localhost> Am 17 Jul 2005 17:34 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > On Sun, 17 Jul 2005, Jay West wrote: > > By the way... just got confirmation from the seller, the machine is located > > in Lebanon. I imagine shipping would not be cheap. Again, I'm not going for > > it - just wanted to research out of curiousity. If someone wants a TI990 > > system, this is a beaut. > I have some relatives nearby that could store it for someone who wants it > :) Still, it might be less problematic to get it to the US than over to your relaives :)) Hans -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 18 14:08:35 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:08:35 -0700 Subject: TI-990 recently posted to this list Message-ID: <402c2576dc8ed57c0c99bdfcd963ebc2@bitsavers.org> This system is NOT going to be cheap to ship. DS-50's are Century Data top loading washing machine drives, same size and weight as CDC 9762's. Roughly 300 lbs each. I would be doubtful the system has had the heads locked either. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 18 14:22:05 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:22:05 -0600 Subject: TI-990 recently posted to this list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DC015D.3000906@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>What country do you NOT have relatives in?!!?! > > > I'm pretty sure I don't have any direct relations in Guam (at least as far > as I know ;) And even fewer vintage computers. :) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 18 14:44:55 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FDC Gap Length? Message-ID: <200507181944.MAA01969@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dave Dunfield" >bytes on track" values which are quite different - within a few 100 bytes, but >you can make them all come out much closer by adjusting the gap length. Hi Dave You have to remember that 100 bytes are easily within the variation in speeds of the drives. As was mentioned, the gaps between the sector headers and the data need to be long enough to take up the relock time of the pll's. The gaps between sectors need to take up this time, along with the worst case speed difference on different drives. The last gap is just filled to the index. It also needs to be big enough to take up any speed differences. When I did a format for my NC4000 board, it seems like I got most of my information from looking at the format code on my PC. I did worst case calculations for the gaps between sectors and used the same values for the gaps between sector headers and data as the PC used. These were relatively fixed for the different densities. Dwight From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Mon Jul 18 16:03:04 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rescued: Data General Nova Boards In-Reply-To: <4980.68.6.79.45.1121399015.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> References: <4980.68.6.79.45.1121399015.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> Message-ID: <50649.65.6.15.42.1121720584.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> Ok, I received a few interested responses, so I set the boards aside somewhere safe until I get back from my trip. Will figure out who gets what in 3 weeks or so. And, to answer a common question, there were no other DG parts or chassis there. I'll have a friend who frequents the surplus store ask around and see if he can find out if there still is a DG on campus. I suspect these were either spares or pulled from the DG when it was scrapped some time ago, and they were found when cleaning out a storage room (based on the types of stuff I found in the same bin the boards came from). If I'm wrong, maybe we'll get lucky and the chassis or drives will show up in this week's surplus drop-off (and that my friend will spot it). Jeff > Hi, I was at my local uni surplus today (UC Santa Barbara) and found, buried > in a bin of random industrial parts from the chem lab, some Data General Nova > boards. Here's what I found, if anyone would like to help me identify them > further: > > These boards are 15 x 15 inches: > > 107-000187-12X Disk Cartridge Controller, DGC Nova > 107-000007-02 DGC Nova Extender Board (quantity 2, one with gouged traces) > 107-000055-03 DGC D-A Converter Scope Control Card Reader > 107-000054-02 DGC General Purpose Interface > 107-000151-17-16 DGC Nova Cassette I/O > 107-000094-00 DG Nova Compatible Wiring Board (quantity 2) > D-10632-01 Data Channel Linc Tape, CO3000N Option 008 > > The wiring boards look to be prototyping boards, they are half filled with > soldered sockets and hand-wired components. > > These boards are 6.5 x 3.25 inches, and have no obvious plug connectors: > > 107-000008-01 DGC (no other writing, quantity 2) > These look like prototyping boards also, with rows for sockets and wire wrap > posts on either side. Each has different components wired up. > > I don't have any DG stuff, and it's unlikely I'm going to acquire one in the > near future (still working on my Sun 2/120), so eventually these will go to > someone else. I'll be leaving Sunday on a trip until Aug 10th, but I'll try > to take some photos of the boards tomorrow or Saturday (if anyone is > interested in them). > > Jeff > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 18 17:03:46 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:03:46 +0000 Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121724226.908.50.camel@weka.localdomain> Picked the CG-200 up earlier. Externally it's the same case style / external design as the MG-1 except for the CG-200 lettering on the front. Some quick images of the guts (circa 200KB each): http://www.patooie.com/comps/whitechapel/cg200/cg200.html It's got a memory expansion fitted (I suspect it's the same 2MB board as the MG-1 machines use), plus it has the ISA backplane (whoo!) - into which is plugged a full-length video board (and a serial board). I don't recognise the video board as being any off-the-shelf PC type of board, so it's possibly a custom design for the CG-200 machines. Initially the motherboard looks the same as my memory of the MG-1 board layout - except that I don't recall that honking great daughterboard on the MG-1 which presumably holds the CG-200's CPU (mind you, I've never seen an MG-200 so perhaps they have the same board). There's no sign of a 32016 on the motherboard anyway, so I presume that whatever CPU the machine uses is buried beneath one of the heaksinks on that daughterboard. Unfortunately the corrosion is pretty bad as the machine's obviously been stored with the batteries in it for many years - I haven't had a chance to see just how extensive it is yet, though. rust / dust - wise it looks to be in better condition than some of the MG-1's that I've seen, so I'm hopeful that the hard disk's survived. Time to get some vinegar on those boards... cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 18 17:44:29 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Charles Simonyi to marry Martha Stewart? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050718075352.04330b98@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050718075352.04330b98@mail> Message-ID: <20050718153721.M57924@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 18 Jul 2005, John Foust wrote: > Insert joke involving Hungarian notation and home decorating here. OK, but I'm sure that others can do better: "Storing type in variable name - it's a good thing" What will they name the kids? Will she stay Martha Stewart, become Martha Simonyi, or have a new derivative name that is excruciatingly long and made up of a bizarre mix of lower and upper case? From florit at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 17:58:10 2005 From: florit at gmail.com (Louis Florit) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:58:10 -0400 Subject: Trade SGI Octane for SGI O2? Message-ID: <46e70d0505071815583016a6f5@mail.gmail.com> Hi; I've got a working SGI Octane, 250 mhz (I think) with 256MB ram (I think), and a 4GB hard disk. I got it as a gift from a friend, and its a nice addition to my SGI collection (SGI Indy and an Indygo that I actually used during my undergrad years at Florida International University). However, the one I really want is an SGI O2. Would there be anyone in the South Florida area (I'm in Miami and willing to drive) that would be willing to trade a working Octane for a working O2? I'll ship if you're interested but you'd have to put up for the shipping cost of the Octane (heavy 25kg computer). Kind regards, Louis PS: I did the LED lightbar hack so it glows a cool amber when on.I have additional light bars if you want to use the original lamps or prefer a different color. More details here http://www.k-huhn.com/octane_mod/ -- Louis Florit AIM: lflorit MSN:louis_florit at hotmail.com Y!: indygolunaria From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 18 17:18:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:18:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Museums, etc In-Reply-To: <1121646528.31970.94.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 18, 5 00:28:48 am Message-ID: > > On Sun, 2005-07-17 at 22:05 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: I've changed the Subject: line because this has little to do with the original subject, which in any case is best forgotten. > > I tend to confuse Bletchley Park with the CCS, so I might be moaning > > about the wrong lot. But (IIRC) the CCS's method of using its members' > > knowedge leaves a lot to be desired. > > Can't really comment there I'm afraid, I've not had any dealings with > the CCS direct - just with lots of their members on a case-by-case I am not sure who does what. I've mostly had dealings with the computer collection at Bletchley Park, whether my problems were due to the actions of the muesum or of the CCS I don't know. Suffice it to say I didn't find the experience pleasant. > basis. I do get the impression that they're somewhat shrouded in > bureaucracy though, which generally isn't to my liking in any situation! That;s my view too. They suffer -- bigtime -- from the problem I've already mentioned. They do not seem to realise that there are self-taught hobbyists out there some of whom actually know what they are doing. Informing them of this fact is a waste of time. My experience in a number of cases is that somebody gets to work on a particular machine becuase he worked for the company (what he actually did at said company doesn't seem to matter). For some reason somebody has then mentioned me, and I am asked to advise _far too late_, after damage has been done. Oh well.... Incidentally, there are some good ways of ensuring you do not get help from me. One obvious one ios to ask for a replacement board, or other assembly. Unless the part is actually misisng (and was misisng when you got the machine!), or you need it for an upgrade, you are not going to get it from me, no matter how many spares I happen to have. I do not, and never will, encourage board-swappers. A couple of years ago I was asked (not by the CCS or anyone related to them) if I had a spare disk drive unit for an HP9114A. Now, as it happens I do have a few 'in stock', but as I said, I never supply complete assemblies like that. I assumed he needed a head assembly (the well-known dried up greas problem. which causes the upper head to get caught in the disk when you eject the latter, and thus the former gets ripped of the gimbal spring). I offered to fit and align that, but upon inspection the heads were fine. In faxt the problem was 2 or 3 dead transsitors on the logic board which didn't take too long to find. And suitable replacements wrre easily available. By refusing to supply a complete spare drive, I (a) kept the unit more original (fewer parts were replaced) and (b) have kept the spare drive for the time it's really neaded (e.g. to donate a head or stepper to another unit, those parts not being easy to get new). And that basically sums up mu reasons for not supplying modules. I prefer to replace as little as possilbe, in order to keep the machine as original as possible. And I prefer to use as little of my stock as possible, as the other parts can go to repair other machines. If a PCB contains half-a-dozen custom chips, then a spare board can be used for just one repair if you wap the whole board, but possibly up to 6 repairs if you change just the defective chip, and if all chips have equal chance of failing. The second wat to not get help from me is to ignore my advice, particularly concerning what to do the first time you power up an uknown machine. If you don't like my methods of testign the PSU on dummy load, fine. Yoy don't have to follow them. But if you just apply power and see what happens, don't expect me to help with parts and advice if something goes wrong. [On that matter, I was appalled by comments at Bletchley on some of the exhibits that they were brought to the museum, plugged together, and worked first time. Any group claiming to be preserving computer history should, IMHO, take rather more care than that!] > urgh, yeah. No idea what I'd do there either. Probably stick a big black > line through the form and include a covering letter that explained why In which case I suspect you'd probably be listed as having experience of no machines. > I'd done so! If they weren't flexible enough to handle that then there's > something seriously wrong IMHO. It's not like there's any shortage of > preservation work to be done outside of the CCS. That was exactly my view in the end. I was battling against people to get thtings done, I was donating my time and expertise free-of-charge, and getting no recognition for it, and I wasn't enjoying it. And I had enough machines of my own to repair, docuemnt, etc. The outcome was, alas, obvious. > > Suppose you have a non-working HP9810 calculator (well, it's almost a > > computer :-)). You have a choice of 2 repairers. > > > > A) Worked ofr HP as a service engineer for many years. He's got the > > official service manual (which is a boardswapper guide), and can follow > > the instructions which are basically to replace all the plug-in PCBs until > > it starts working again. The fact that you can't get replacement boards > > any more is another matter... > > > > B) Has never worked for HP or any other computer company. But he was > > given a broken 9810 a few years back and spent a couple of months working > > out how to repair it. This guy can connect a logic analyser to an > > undocumented internal connector and trace the CPU microcode. He's got his > > own microcode listings and can thus tell just what the darn thing is > > doing. > > Definitely a B. I suppose ideally I'd like person A watching person B > doing the work though, as otherwise they'll never learn anything! For the record, I am more than happy to share my repair tricks, as I have done to several people round the world on just this machine.... > > There's also the problem that somebody having no experience of , but > > who is generally clueful about similar stuff might well be more use than > > somebody who's had a few months user-level experience of , but who > > has never gone further on any machine. > > The former for sure. The most common faults causing system failure tend > to be common to many systems - never underestimate general experience! Indeed. There aren't that many ways to do a particular thing (although HP, in particular, seem to have used all of them at least once :-)). More than that, though, somebody who has general experience is likely to be able to understand a mew circuit/program/whatever after a little time, and is not likely to do the totally wrong thing before he's worked out what the right thing to do is. -tony From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jul 18 18:39:28 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 00:39:28 +0100 Subject: Boardswapping and debugging (was Need contact...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a83a18c4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Perhaps I should have re-phrased that question. Who do you pick if all > you've asked about is what experience A and B have of the machine. _On > paper_, A seems to be the better 'qualified' -- he worked for the > company, he's got the official manual. He's also got no experience doing component level repair. > In practice, you'd want B. "The boardswapper goes looking for a display control board. The engineer goes looking for a TIL311" > Odd you should pick that one. The CPU control board -- 09810-66513 -- > which contains the microcode, is the only logic board I've not had to > repair in a 98x0 machine.... Still, I am sure they can fail. I just picked the words "CPU microcode board" off the top of my head - I suppose "display board" would have been a better choice.. meh. > Oh, absolutely. Good test equipment is useful, but it's not essential, > and it's not a substitute for knowing what you are doing. Many people > (not on this list I hasten to add) seem to think there's a magic box you > can connect to a brokent that will tell you exactly what's wrong > and how to fix it. Of course there isn't. I've had people ask me to find faults on their PCs... "You're not going to use the oscilloscope?" "Why bother? I can tell from the power LED that the power supply is cutting out. I've only got the multimeter out to confirm my initial assessment of the situation." "Oh." (yes, this actually happened - twice - once with a PC, and again with someone else wanting me to "fix" their radio - dead batteries...) > It is often possible to get the evidence you need without fancy test > equipment. The person who moans 'I could fix this if only I had a logic > analyser (or storage 'scope, or...)' is probably wrong. Not because such > instruments are not useful, they are. But becasue even if he had them, > he'd not be able to interpret the display. If he had the skill to do > that, he could probably manage without the instruments. Then there's the fun of dealing with a fault that an LA won't detect. An LA tells you if the line is high or low, and what its timing relationship is to other signals. It can't tell you if the clock line is suffering from ringing or overshoot... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... One way to better your lot is to do a lot better... From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Jul 18 18:07:24 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:07:24 -0400 Subject: DQ656 manual? Message-ID: <200507182307.j6IN7OMx006465@mwave.heeltoe.com> Does anyone have a manual for a Dilog DQ656? It's a QBUS disk controller, and I believe it's ESDI and does MSCP. I just discovered I have one, but I have no manual and can't find anything on the web. Also, I think I found a small cache of Emulex UC07's for $75 each. I think there are 3 left. I ordered one. If anyone else finds that an attractive price let me know. I'm happy to be the fool who rushes in. -brad From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jul 18 19:28:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: <1121724226.908.50.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Unfortunately the corrosion is pretty bad as the machine's obviously > been stored with the batteries in it for many years - I haven't had a Actually, that corrosion is not nearly as bad as it could be (at least from what I can tell in the photo which has excessive flash) as the components all seem to be intact and unaffected save for the green grime. I cleaned up the battery corrosion in an Apple Lisa this past weekend with distilled vinegar and it cleaned up really well. It was worse than this. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 18 19:22:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:22:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Boardswapping and debugging (was Need contact...) In-Reply-To: <1a83a18c4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jul 19, 5 00:39:28 am Message-ID: > > Perhaps I should have re-phrased that question. Who do you pick if all > > you've asked about is what experience A and B have of the machine. _On > > paper_, A seems to be the better 'qualified' -- he worked for the > > company, he's got the official manual. > > He's also got no experience doing component level repair. Yes, but try convincing a non-technical person of that. > > > In practice, you'd want B. > > "The boardswapper goes looking for a display control board. The engineer goes > looking for a TIL311" Absolutely... > > > Odd you should pick that one. The CPU control board -- 09810-66513 -- > > which contains the microcode, is the only logic board I've not had to > > repair in a 98x0 machine.... Still, I am sure they can fail. > > I just picked the words "CPU microcode board" off the top of my head - I > suppose "display board" would have been a better choice.. meh. OK, a lot of HP9810 info that you probably don't need, but which might interest somebody here (it's better than flaming about E-bay, surely...) The machine is 16 bit, bit serial. The CPU is 4 boards, about 20 chips on each board. Mostly TTL, with some 74Hxxx parts (!). Also 9 small (256*4 bit) PROMs, 7 for the microcode (28 bits wide), 2 for the ALU (its essentially done by lookup tables). Actually, both the '16 bit' and the 'bit serial' are possibly wrong. The CPU registers, etc are 16 bits wide. Data (numbers) memory is 8 bits wide in the hardware, with logic to read 2 locations and turn them to/from a 16 bit word when transfering to the CPU. User program memory (to store keystroke-like programs) looks to be 6 bits wide to the CPU (a keycode is 2 octal digits), as above it's physically half that width, 3 bits. Incidnetally, other machines in the family (9820, 9821, 9830) don't play such shenanigans, the memory is all physcially and logically 16 bits wide. And the machine is not always bit-serial. It is for binary operations, but BCD addition, which has to be done between the A accumulator and the T register (memory data register) is done a digit (4 bits) at a time. The 4 CPU boards are : I/O Interface, Clock (which also includes the I/O control sequencer), CPU control (microcode), Data Path. Those are my names for them, and IMHO are less confusing than the HP names. There are 3 memory control boards that contain the shift registers to convert between the bit-serial CPU data and the parallel memory buses. One board contains the M registers (address), address decoder, etc. Anotehr contains the T register (data), buffers, etc. The last is the timing, control, refresh, etc. RAM is 1103s. Early Intel 1K*1 bit chips. With strange (19V) logic levels and power supplies. There are level shifters all over the place. ROM is HP custom 512 byte chips. At least most of the signals to those are TTL levels, although the select lines are at 12V levels. The display is 45 7-segment digits (!). It displays all 3 stack levels, 10 digit mantissa, desimal point, 2 digit exponent, mantissa sign and exponent sign for each level. It's almost entirely firmware scanned and driven. The I/O interface contains a 16 bit shift register. It provides 16 outputs nad 12 inputs (the other 4 inputs are grounded on the card) For external peripherals, which you plug into the I/O slots on the back, it's 8 data outputs, 8 data inputs, 4 status outputs, 4 status inputs, 4 select outputs (to select 1 of 16 peripherals). For internal peripherals, like the display, selection is done by dedicated lines from the I/O interface, so all 16 outputs can be used for 'data'. In the case of the display, 15 lines are used : 3 to select a particular row of the display (X, Y, Z register display) -- 1 of 3 code ; 4 to select a digit (binary code), 8 for the segment drives (7 segments + decimal point). There is a display strobe line from the I/O interface to the display. It drives monostables on the display board, which ensure that whatever the processor does, a particualr digit can't be left enabled. If that happened the display segment would burn out (the instantaneous current is high, to get adequate brightness). Displays were expensive back then. What all this means, of course, is that 90% of the machine must be working to get anything on the display at all. The CPU must be running the microocde correctly, in order to fetch and execute instructions (some of which hopefully will scan the display). The data path must be OK, to transfer data from memory to the I/O register, etc. The ROM must he OK provide instructions to the CPU. The RAM must be OK too, it holds the stack refisters, etc (not to mention the subroutine stack, scratchpad, etc). Memory cotnrol, addressing, etc need to be OK too so that the memory can be accessed. Of coutrse the display and its drivers need to be OK. And everything depends on a working PSU. And of course, just about all faults result in a blank display. How do you sort it out? Well, start by removing unneccessary bits (the intenral printer, card reader controller, even the keyboard logic connector). It's unlikely to help, but it's worth eliminating possible problems on the I/O bus. Check the PSU. There are testpoints for all voltages apart from +5V on the PSU boards, marked on the PSU cover. The 5V line is marked on the display PCB. Assuming that doesn't help, you're into the logic. IMHO, the best way to continue is to check for the display strobe at the display PCB edge connector. It's very liklely to be missing, but you'd feel a right idiot if you spent hours tracing the CPU operation only to find that the problem was one of the monostables on the display board! Then check the clocks (there are 2, bitclk to clock the registers times between each muclk, which drives the microode. is determined by 4 bits of the current microinstruction). If they're OK (the clock board can be powered up out of the machine, whereupon is 16, for testing), next look at the microcode address lines on the CPU control board top test connector. If they're not changing at all, then either the INIT/ line from the PSU is stuck asserted (it's sourced on the 5V regulator board), or there's a problem with he sequencer. If the microcode is running, use a logic analyser to trace it. You are looking to answer the following : 1) Is the sequence sane? That is, could it occur if the sequencer and ROMs are workin correctly? 2) Is it stuck in the I/O loop (a 2 state loop, I can look up the addresses). When the CPU does an I/O operation, it sets an I/O control flip-flop on the clock board, then sits in this loop until the I/O control system has finished (and therefore clears said flip-flop). This is acually a very unreliable part of the machine, much of the time this is the cause of a blank display. If it is stuck in said look, of course you start to debug the I/O control logic 3) Is it going found the fetch-execute cycle? In particular, is it fetching instructions from ROM? If so, does the memory control system seem to be working? Are you getting reasanble signals to the ROM (and RAM). And so it goes on..... > I've had people ask me to find faults on their PCs... > > "You're not going to use the oscilloscope?" > "Why bother? I can tell from the power LED that the power supply is cutting > out. I've only got the multimeter out to confirm my initial assessment of > the situation." > "Oh." Of course you then may need the 'scope to find out what's up with the PSU drive waveforms, etc... > > (yes, this actually happened - twice - once with a PC, and again with someone > else wanting me to "fix" their radio - dead batteries...) Perhaps I'd better not admit to the time I tried to find out why the local oscillator in a radio wasn't doing that... I spent a long time checking components, and forgot to measure the battery voltage.... > Then there's the fun of dealing with a fault that an LA won't detect. An LA > tells you if the line is high or low, and what its timing relationship is to > other signals. It can't tell you if the clock line is suffering from ringing > or overshoot... I don't think any one instrument will always give you the necessary clues. Part of faultfinding is knowing what an instrument _can_ tell you, and thus whether it's a suitable instrument for the job in hand. And of course, knowing what it's not telling you, so you don't assume something is right (like no ringing on a clock) when the instrument you've chosen (LA) can't tell you that. -tony From dj.taylor at starpower.net Mon Jul 18 20:07:42 2005 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:07:42 -0400 Subject: KDJ11 eproms / M7554-PB conversion? In-Reply-To: <200507142116.j6ELGunG000751@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200507142116.j6ELGunG000751@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20050718210421.01bc1c20@pop.starpower.net> I''ve converted the S-box version, not the PB version. However, there were some scanned docs of the KDJ11-d series boards on shoppas trailing edge site. I looked at my copy and it does show you which/where the jumper and resistor combination that needs to be changed to convert from 16K to 32K proms. I included your particular board. Doug At 05:16 PM 7/14/2005, you wrote: >Hi, > >Does anyone have direct experience replacing the eproms in a M7554-PB? > >The top layer says "CPU KDJ11-D". It's s-box and is labeled M7554-PB. > >The eproms are 27C256's. I want to replace them with 23-261E5 and >23-262E5 images (16k, or 27C128) to turn the board into (hopefully) a >PDP-11/53. > >I managed to erase two 27C128's and burn them this morning but I discovered >that the instructions I found on the web > > http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl/KDJ11.htm > >don't match my board (very nice instructions, none the less - thanks!) > >I may just try it and see what happens, or reprogram the 27C256's with >the image doubled, just for fun. > >-brad From rcini at optonline.net Mon Jul 18 20:55:41 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:55:41 -0400 Subject: Mac ROM Image? Message-ID: <004201c58c04$f8157200$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: Does anyone have a Mac Iifx ROM image that they can send me? I have a IIci image for Basilisk II from my machine but I wanted to play with the fx version too while I'm on travel. I only thought of this now, so I won't be able to buy an fx on eBay to get the ROMs in time for this trip. Please contact me off-list. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Jul 18 20:52:52 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:52:52 -0400 Subject: Odd FDC problem (Compupro) Message-ID: <20050719015251.IGUH11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, I've got a Compupro 8086 based S-100 system which has been on the "to do list" for a while, and yesterday I finally got the CPU reference manual which was the missing piece ... I've "almost" got it working, according to the docs, it should flash the drive select light about once/second with no disk in the drive, as it tries to read --- this it does. The odd thing is that if you put a disk (any disk) in the drive, it immediately stops selecting it - it's as if getting the index pulses from the disk prevents the FDC from proceeding ... Sometimes, usually after taking a board out to check something, it will actually try and boot from the disk - If you put Disk-2 of the Compupro CP/M 86 distribution in the drive, you can hear it boot, it seeks a bit and obviously reads a track or two - after the first seek, you can see the RTS+DTR lights come on on all three serial ports, which suggests that it has come up enough to init the serial ports ... but I do not get any output on any of the three ports. I have the FDC configured to use User port 7 of the Interfacer-4 which is how it is configured (standard Compupro setup). (anyone familier with Compupro have any experience with this?) But my main problem, is that most of the time, putting a disk in causes the FDC to stop selecting the drive - it resumes selecting once the disk is removed, however it does not access the drive while the disk is in - since this is a 765 based controller, you can see the background polling as a dim glow of the select led. Anyone have any ideas what would make an FDC behave like this? Since it does get further infrequently, I believe it is not a component failure ... most likely a dirty socket or connection - but for the life of me I cannot figure out what would make an FDC stop trying to access a disk only when it is getting index pulses. Btw, I have checked the drives on another machine and they appear to work fine. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jul 19 00:25:03 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 00:25:03 -0500 Subject: "Computer Notes" magazine Message-ID: <42DC8EAF.1030204@jbrain.com> Trying to organize all the magazines I picked up a bit ago, I came across some issues of "Computer Notes". Jan 77, Jul-Nov 77, Jan 78. They look like a Pertec company produced mag about Altair projects. Has anyone ever heard of the magazine? Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 19 02:44:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 00:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Computer Notes" magazine In-Reply-To: <42DC8EAF.1030204@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Jim Brain wrote: > Trying to organize all the magazines I picked up a bit ago, I came > across some issues of "Computer Notes". Jan 77, Jul-Nov 77, Jan 78. > They look like a Pertec company produced mag about Altair projects. Has > anyone ever heard of the magazine? Yes, it's fairly well known to folks who either used Altairs back in the day or collect them contemporaneously. They are definitely rare. A complete set is not easy to come by. You have a nice run, but I believe there were probably twice the number of issues printed as you have in total. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 19 06:19:50 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:19:50 +0000 Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121771990.2273.5.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 17:28 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 18 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Unfortunately the corrosion is pretty bad as the machine's obviously > > been stored with the batteries in it for many years - I haven't had a > > Actually, that corrosion is not nearly as bad as it could be (at least > from what I can tell in the photo which has excessive flash) Heh, yep they were rather quick photos. > as the > components all seem to be intact and unaffected save for the green grime. At least on the battery board itself (not shown in the photos) there seems to be signs of break-up of the solder joints though, now that I've had a chance to look at it in daylight. Hopefully that's not quite so bad on the motherboard itself. I'm surprised at how extensive it is though - it's reached far further into the system than the other Whitechapels I've seen (but in those cases the battery board was almost destroyed, so hopefully the better condition of this one is a good sign...) > I cleaned up the battery corrosion in an Apple Lisa this past weekend with > distilled vinegar and it cleaned up really well. It was worse than this. Hmm, the vinegar trick should probably go in the FAQ (along with the fact that it tends to remove ink on ceramic chips - found that one out the hard way once!) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 19 06:30:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:30:11 +0000 Subject: Odd FDC problem (Compupro) In-Reply-To: <20050719015251.IGUH11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050719015251.IGUH11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <1121772611.2291.14.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 21:52 -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I've got a Compupro 8086 based S-100 system which has been on the "to do list" for > a while, and yesterday I finally got the CPU reference manual which was the missing > piece ... > > I've "almost" got it working, according to the docs, it should flash the drive select > light about once/second with no disk in the drive, as it tries to read --- this it > does. I probably won't be at Bletchley until this weekend, but we got a Compupro 8/16 a few weeks ago with a *lot* of documentation. I could have a flick through that assuming nobody's taken it home with them... > The odd thing is that if you put a disk (any disk) in the drive, it immediately stops > selecting it - it's as if getting the index pulses from the disk prevents the FDC from > proceeding ... If you're seeing different behaviour occasionally, then this can't be it, but I remember our machine did something very similar to this if the drive cabling was back to front; the drive LED would pulse but then as soon as a disk was put in it'd do nothing. > Sometimes, usually after taking a board out to check something, it will actually try > and boot from the disk - If you put Disk-2 of the Compupro CP/M 86 distribution in the > drive, you can hear it boot, it seeks a bit and obviously reads a track or two - after > the first seek, you can see the RTS+DTR lights come on on all three serial ports, which > suggests that it has come up enough to init the serial ports ... but I do not get any > output on any of the three ports. Are the disks known to be good? It does sound like a faulty connection though - does moving the boards around to different slots make any difference? cheers Jules From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jul 19 07:30:52 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:30:52 -0400 Subject: Odd FDC problem (Compupro) Message-ID: <20050719123051.QWYN21628.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Jules, >I probably won't be at Bletchley until this weekend, but we got a >Compupro 8/16 a few weeks ago with a *lot* of documentation. I could >have a flick through that assuming nobody's taken it home with them... Thanks - I do have the technical manual for the 8086/8087 CPU board, the DISK1A (FDC) and the Interfacer 4 (I/O) - I could use information on the RAM16, Selector Channel and DISK2 - the latter two are for the HD system which I have pulled at the moment. Info on the RAM16 would be especially useful. If you happen to have a listing for the 8086 boot, that would be REALLY helpful. >> The odd thing is that if you put a disk (any disk) in the drive, it immediately stops >> selecting it - it's as if getting the index pulses from the disk prevents the FDC from >> proceeding ... > >If you're seeing different behaviour occasionally, then this can't be >it, but I remember our machine did something very similar to this if the >drive cabling was back to front; the drive LED would pulse but then as >soon as a disk was put in it'd do nothing. What do you mean by "back to front" - do you mean the connector reversed? When I first connected the drives, I put the connector on backwards, which resulted on both drives coming ON permanently (grounded selects). >> Sometimes, usually after taking a board out to check something, it will actually try >> and boot from the disk - If you put Disk-2 of the Compupro CP/M 86 distribution in the >> drive, you can hear it boot, it seeks a bit and obviously reads a track or two - after >> the first seek, you can see the RTS+DTR lights come on on all three serial ports, which >> suggests that it has come up enough to init the serial ports ... but I do not get any >> output on any of the three ports. > >Are the disks known to be good? It does sound like a faulty connection >though - does moving the boards around to different slots make any >difference? I'm pretty sure the disks are go - I've tried most of the slots, as well as cleaning the sockets and connectors, as well as reseating and cleaning up any socketed IC's that look at all suspect. When I first put the system together, it would try to boot fairly consistantly, but while trying to figure out why the console was not working, I had several boards in and out, and all of a sudden it stopped accessing the drive when there is a disk inserted (but still showing the correct attempted accesses when the disk is out). I thought for a while that I had fried something, but later, after a bit more shuffling, it began working again ... but 90+% of the time it does not select the drive if a diskette is is inserted. Time to pull out the extender cards and scope. If any one has any ideas as to what would cause this: The system selects the drive at approx. 1 second intervals when attempting to boot with no disk inserted (this is exactly as described in the docs), but never loads the head and stops selecting the drive for as long as any diskette is inserted. Please let me know - I really can't think of a possible cause which makes it tough to figure out where to start! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jzg22 at drexel.edu Tue Jul 19 08:57:05 2005 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:57:05 -0400 Subject: Working? MicroVax 3600 free for the taking, imminent disposal Message-ID: <42DD06B1.8020807@drexel.edu> (sorry if this is a dupe, I had my 'from' address set wrong before) A digital MicroVax 3600 and its requisite heap of media has recently been trashed by the physics department at Drexel University. It is sitting in the hallway of the 7th floor of Disque Hall (building 12) at 3141 Chestnut Street in Philadelphia. (Thats through the glass doors which are facing the gardens/walkways which are in the remains of 31st street, to the right toward market street once inside, then up the elevators to the 7th floor) The machine is intact, and according to someone I asked, it powered up and worked fine when tested 3 months ago. The machine includes an enormous pile of backup tapes, both spool and cartridge type. (the MicroVax 3600 has the RA-82 and TK-70 drives needed to read both types of media installed) The machine is the size of a narrow but tall washing-machine, and probably weighs around 300 pounds. Bring a Van or Minivan with the seats taken out! Also, the closest parking spaces are on the other side of chestnut street, (the nice little lot in front of disque has a gate blocking entry now...) I may be able to assist in moving the machine, depending on my class schedule. Also available is a large pile of Tape backups and spool backups from 1987 through 1991 at least. According to someone I asked, they contain experimental data from experiments run during that time. I know the tapes are compatible with any Video 8 videocassete recorder (which some camcorders use). I would take the machine myself, but I don't have the means to transport it and I don't have the space to store it. According to someone I asked, the machine is scheduled for disposal sometime later this week, so get it QUICK! If you need assistance moving the machine or dealing with Drexel security, email me at jzg22 @t drexel d0t edu (@t = @, d0t = .) Jonathan Gevaryahu lord_nightmare @t users d0t sf d0t net jzg22 @t drexel d0t edu P.S. Al Kossow: I'm sorry I never got back to you in february about the votrax manual, my life's been pretty hectic over the last 6 months. I'll email you later this week. From bill at timeguy.com Tue Jul 19 09:05:03 2005 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:05:03 -0500 Subject: Tandy 1000 SX w/monitor & keyboard available In-Reply-To: <200507191121.j6JBLWsh023022@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507191121.j6JBLWsh023022@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050719140503.GC65438@outpost.timeguy.com> Anyone interested? Location is Lincoln Nebraska. It'll probably get recycled if I don't hear from anyone in a day or two. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 19 09:52:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epson EX-1 office computer Message-ID: Here's an oddity: Epson EX-1 accounting computer circa 1977. They make a lot of rather lame claims (first this, first that, etc.) but interesting none the less. http://www.epson.co.jp/e/company/milestones_09_EX_1.htm Check out the PDF for a larger photo. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rcini at optonline.net Tue Jul 19 10:12:21 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:12:21 -0400 Subject: "Computer Notes" magazine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002401c58c74$43627c70$4e9c960c@PC311047611813> Jim: This would be a tremendous asset to the Altair community. I have some issues posted on my Web site, but there are a lot of holes. I do not have any original issues -- only scans. I'd hope that you would consider allowing them to be scanned and posted to the Web. I run an Altair emulation project, and I would love to have scans of these as part of the collection. Here's my site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/Altair32.htm Thanks. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 3:44 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: "Computer Notes" magazine On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Jim Brain wrote: > Trying to organize all the magazines I picked up a bit ago, I came > across some issues of "Computer Notes". Jan 77, Jul-Nov 77, Jan 78. > They look like a Pertec company produced mag about Altair projects. Has > anyone ever heard of the magazine? Yes, it's fairly well known to folks who either used Altairs back in the day or collect them contemporaneously. They are definitely rare. A complete set is not easy to come by. You have a nice run, but I believe there were probably twice the number of issues printed as you have in total. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 19 10:18:27 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:18:27 -0400 Subject: IBM 9674/2 on epay References: Message-ID: <000a01c58c75$1cf815d0$3a92a8c0@maggie> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5789088559&category=11215&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1 pretty good condition for 250$ and comes with a FC interface. anybody know if this 9674 is capable of operating as a 9672? Looks like a general G5 machine - but sold as a coupling facility only? does that mean no expanded memory? would it make a nice little linux box... I can't figure out how many MIPS this CP is: PN 44H2721 IBM PBE-5M 9672 MODULE ASSEMBLY note: I have nothing to do with the sale of this this machine, just curious and interested in a home S/390 regards h From allain at panix.com Tue Jul 19 10:37:01 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:37:01 -0400 Subject: Museums, etc References: Message-ID: <009d01c58c77$b567c200$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I've changed the Subject: line because this has little to do with > the original subject, which in any case is best forgotten. Yep. > a museum that won't let somebody who is giving their > time free of charge to help with the operation of that museum > look at their collection of documentation is certainly doing > the above. This is a little like the issue of showing proper respect to Don Maslin's wife. Build a friendship first, then pursue your interests second. Might I suggest 1./ Identify a person most like yourself. 2./ Find your best book on the period in your collection. 3./ Loan it to this person. 4./ Wait 1 to 2 months. 5./ Converse on the subject. There's 5 steps, there could be more... then make your request. > I do not suffer fools or droids gladly, ... Uh, No. John A. From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Wed Jul 13 10:01:38 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:01:38 -0500 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <20050712151354.U5282@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <200507131510.j6DFAgW4059572@keith.ezwind.net> The connector is a DB-37, used mostly for RS-499, but this does not look like that kind of device. The other common use for this connector is in Analog/Digital control devices. I agree with the comment that it looks like a log display that varies from + to -. I am guessing, of course, but I suspect that the thumb switches on the front allow the selection of one of several analog signals on the DB-37 connector and that the unit digitizes the signal on that pin and displays it on one of the lights. It is definitely a one of a kind or a very short production run since it is made on perf board. Even for a few copies most people would make a printed circuit. Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Jennings > Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 5:18 PM > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Mystery box > > On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Stefan wrote: > > > Can anybody tell me what this little blue box is ? > > http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/mysterybox/ > > There is no way to tell what it is precisely from photos, > make a schematic and maybe we can. It's obviously hand made. > > Well it's got a 74181 4-bit ALU, and a demux and flops, but a > lot of LEDs, so maybe it calculates CRCs, checksums, or > tallies input pulses, or counts complicated events. There's > enough glue in there to make a decent little processor-like > state machine with ALU, so it could be a very clever little > box, but it probably solves some specialized niche function, > and without knowing where and how you'll likely never know. > > From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Wed Jul 13 10:48:48 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:48:48 -0500 Subject: Apollo stuff In-Reply-To: <1121253672.25329.10.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200507131557.j6DFvqPM061717@keith.ezwind.net> I would love to see pictures of the ends of the ATR cable. I have some ATR cards and we will be putting one on display soon but I have never seen a cable or the wall box. In later versions of IBM token ring the wall mounted box (MAU) did do something, but in original IBM TR it was strictly passive. It had some switches to take devices out of the ring manually, but no electronics. Since ATR was earlier than that I doubt that the wall box had any active function. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 6:21 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Apollo stuff > > On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 18:16 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > Bob said: > > ... > Question for Apollo fans - when setting up an Apollo token > ring, is it really as simple as just chaining the machines > together in a loop? I seem to remember the manuals (the few > that we do have) mentioning plugging in to wall-mounted > boxes, but it's not clear if those are just for cable routing > or whether they actually do something more important. ... > > cheers > > Jules > > From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Wed Jul 13 10:57:21 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:57:21 -0500 Subject: Apollo stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507131606.j6DG6OZA061780@keith.ezwind.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Simon Fryer > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 6:38 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Apollo stuff > > All, > > On 7/13/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > > On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 18:16 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: ... > There isn't anything fancy to the token ring cables. I forget > the impedance but the first Apollos I used where two > connected back to back using butchered token ring cables and > some nice gold plated connectors (F connectors is my memory > serves me correctly). ... The Apollo cards I have have a strange connector. It appears to have two coax and a half dozen wires in a DB form factor. I did not get any cables, so I have no idea what connections are actually used. I can't see how you could use a modern TR cable with that since it was 4 wire shielded twisted pair. F connectors would imply coax. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From mamcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Jul 13 12:56:01 2005 From: mamcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike, A) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:56:01 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 Message-ID: I once had a chance to walk through my neighbor's basement in an old log cabin summer house where he had lots of knob and tube wiring right about head height. He was in the process of figuring out which circuits were connected to it and how to replace it. The nails were set into the edge of the 2 X 6 floor joists. It was scary since the floor joists were only 6 feet off of the concrete floor that had been added over the original dirt and rock. I've got poor peripheral vision and I was afraid of sticking my head up against the wires. I think it's gone now. Mike From mamcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Jul 13 13:08:33 2005 From: mamcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike, A) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:08:33 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82(actually aluminum wiring) Message-ID: In the late 70's my apartment/townhouse in Hazelwood/St. Louis had aluminum wiring. Both out electric dryer and TV acted erratically. We were watching TV one night and we saw sparks around the electric outlet. Since there were 3 electrical engineers living there out came the insulated screwdriver, pliers, and VOM. We took off the cover plate and you could see the charred stud. We applied a temporary fix until the apartment owner had an electrician come repair it and he attached a copper pigtail to each wire before reconnecting it to the electric receptacle. We asked about this and the electrician explained that the copper wouldn't expand, contract, and oxidize under the screw on the receptacle. Being it was the 1970's of course we had a TV, VCR, stereo, and a green Lava lamp plugged into that socket. I think we had shag carpet and a bean bag chair also. Mike From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 19:02:35 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sam's Photofact question In-Reply-To: <20050713070606.15243.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050714000235.95055.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> I goofed...the drives in the Tandy 2000 are 4853's, so the model that was covered by Photofacts was likely a 4851. Ardent apologies. --- Chris M wrote: > Years ago I obtained from a library an edition based > on a Mitusbishi floppy drive, model number I believe > was 4151 but I'm not positive. Can anyone clarify > this > for me, a search proved fruitless. Does anyone have > this manual? It's of interest because my Tandy 2000 > uses Mitusbishi 4153 drives, and doubtless there's > similarities. > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail > Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the > tour: > http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html > > ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From korpela at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 19:45:11 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:45:11 -0700 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: References: <20050712210937.37eb3733.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > Zero ohm jumpers are a relatively modern idea. We use both zero ohm and infinity ohm (well, very large value) surface mount resistors on space flight hardware. There are cases where you are building tapped delays where you don't know which taps will be used at the design stage. If you leave the unused taps disconnected, quality control will assume a required part is missing and send it back... We also had a case where we had a imaging detector anode with infinity ohm SMD resistors on one side and 0 ohm resistors on the other side. The technician wasn't careful and we got it back with some resistors swapped. The dead pixels confused us for a while before we figured it out.. Eric From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 01:51:17 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ...still looking for MS-Fortran for ANY DOS puter Message-ID: <20050714065118.59947.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> I may have posted this request...plea...on cctech some time ago. I've been looking for an early Microsoft Fortran compiler for eons. Vanilla DOS version would be fine, but for something exotic like the Tandy 2000 or Zenith Z-100 would be exquisite. I was fortunate to obtain, oo, MS-COBOL recently, and to my amazement I managed to WinImage the disks. Version 2.0 or something. If any of you weren't aware, the earliest versions of Turbo Pascal and Turbo C are available for download on the Borland Museum. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jzg22 at drexel.edu Thu Jul 14 10:53:57 2005 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (jzg22 at drexel.edu) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:53:57 -0400 Subject: MicroVax 3600 free for the taking, imminent disposal! HURRY! Message-ID: <475c1534759ef3.4759ef3475c153@drexel.edu> A digital MicroVax 3600 and its requisite heap of media has recently been trashed by the physics department at Drexel University. It is sitting in the hallway of the 7th floor of Disque Hall (building 12) at 3141 Chestnut Street in Philadelphia. The machine is intact, and according to someone I asked, it powered up and worked fine when tested 3 months ago. The machine includes an enormous pile of backup tapes, both spool and cartridge type. (the MicroVax 3600 has the RA-82 and TK-70 drives needed to read both types of media installed) The machine is the size of a narrow but tall washing-machine, and probably weighs around 300 pounds. Bring a Van or Minivan with the seats taken out! Also, the closest parking spaces are on the other side of chestnut street, (the nice little lot in front of disque has a gate blocking entry), so a small equipment cart would be helpful too. (I may be able to borrow one from one of the labs, so contact me!) Also included is a large pile of Tape backups and spool backups from 1987 through 1991 at least, which *MIGHT* contain some previously-thought-lost VAX-related programs (maybe the lost source code to the final version of ROGUE, or the missing parts of early UNIX sourcecode, perhaps... though I'm really just dreaming there.) I'm hoping whoever takes the machine takes the tapes as well (and shares anything interesting on them) but just rescuing the machine from imminent doom would be a major boon. I would take the machine myself, but I don't have the means to transport it and I don't have the space to store it. According to someone I asked, the machine is scheduled for disposal sometime either later this week or next week, so get it QUICK! If you need assistance moving the machine or dealing with Drexel security, email me at jzg22 @t drexel d0t edu (@t = @, d0t = .) Jonathan Gevaryahu lord_nightmare @t users d0t sf d0t net jzg22 @t drexel d0t edu P.S. Al Kossow: I'm sorry I never got back to you in february about the votrax manual, my life's been pretty hectic over the last 6 months. I'll email you over the weekend. From slazer at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 14:14:42 2005 From: slazer at gmail.com (Craig Ricciuto) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:14:42 -0400 Subject: Compaticard IV - The evil non-existance software Message-ID: <8cb683b005071412145b03afa6@mail.gmail.com> I recently came across a MicroSolutions, Inc CompaticCard IV that I need to install but I do not have the disks to install it. Does anyone have the software for it that can give me a copy so I can finally install this card? I don't know if it matters or not but I'm running MS DOS 6.2 on the computer I'm trying to install it on. From ed at groenenberg.net Fri Jul 15 11:51:06 2005 From: ed at groenenberg.net (Ed) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:51:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PSU schematic of the PDP-11/05 (11/10) needed Message-ID: <64330.192.168.1.1.1121446266.squirrel@192.168.1.1> Hi All, I have a PDP-11/05 (11/10) in a 5.25" box version which I'm putting together. It's going to be equipped with 8Kb of core and a RX02 floppy interface. When powering up, led's come on, but there is not much action to get. Look like the -15V of the PSU is not working properly. The PSU is a different one compared to the well known bricks used in BA11 boxes. This one delivers +5V, +15V and -15V and is labelled 5409728. Anybody have a schematic of this PSU by any chance? Thanks, Ed From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Fri Jul 15 19:43:24 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:43:24 -0500 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: <20050715155621.Y96468@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200507160052.j6G0qSx7092459@keith.ezwind.net> Well, he's not sucking up absolutely everything. I picked up a copy of MS Bob the other day. ;) Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 6:00 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Need contact information for dkdkk > > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Would someone please give me the e-mail address of dkdkk? > I need to > > > have it out with him. I'm tired of him sucking up everything on > > > eBay ... From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sat Jul 16 06:46:47 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 07:46:47 -0400 Subject: local demolition of SAGE building Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050716073725.030bb098@mail.n.ml.org> I saw this in today's copy of my local newspaper on-line. The location of the building is in New Windsor, NY. Stewart International Airport -as some of you know- sits on the border of the Town of Newburgh and New Windsor. It used to be and still is to a degree, a major Marine, Army and Air Force base. More currently, it is a commercial international airport and a base for the Air Force, local Army and Air Force Reserves and touts a pair of the biggest runways in the USA. It is the 3rd location on the list for emergency landings for the Space Shuttles if something should go wrong. Unfortunately, as this piece suggests, the military has already removed the actual SAGE equipment from the building. I used to go on walks past this building as a kid as there is a path near it that my family would take through a wooded area (scenic stuff) and up until recently, was open to the public, sort of like a park. I figured I'd send this to cctech because it has a lot of historical relevance. -John Boffemmyer IV STORY AS FOLLOWS: July 16, 2005 Cold War building faces colder reality By Jeremiah Horrigan Times Herald-Record jhorrigan at th-record.com New Windsor ? You'll find it on the edge of Stewart International Airport, a windowless, four-story concrete cube that looks like it could withstand a nuclear blast. And that's exactly what it was built to do. If things had gone as many Americans feared during the Cold War, if the Russian bombers had finally come over the horizon, the Semi-Automatic Ground Environment building was the key to the country's military defense system. The building that once thrummed with the tensions of a time when nuclear Armageddon was a constant threat was abandonned by the military decades ago. The unnerving skeleton of its legacy remain, including the war room, where etched-glass maps of the Eastern U.S. display likely Russian targets. Above the maps looms a doomsday tote board, meant to track the "progress" of World War III. Even before the '50s faded and ICBMs became the weapon of choice among the world's super-powers, the SAGE building had become as antiquated as an Edsel. It's now slated for the wrecking ball under the airport's new 20-year master plan for development. And that plan is under siege by a group of people who for years have been laboring to transform the SAGE building into what they call a Cold War Peace Museum. Ulster County Legislator Susan Zimet has spearheaded the effort, lobbying, fundraising and proselytizing on the building's behalf for the past five years. To her, the building isn't a dead relic but a living reminder of an era she believes we forget at our peril. "All the stuff we deal with daily ? terrorism, the possibility of nuclear terror or the situation in Korea ? it all began with the Cold War." Zimet's not much of a history buff herself, and, after years of exploring possibilities, she's doubtful the building is suitable for becoming a first-class museum. But that, she argues, doesn't mean the building should be demolished. Taking it down (at an estimated cost of nearly a million dollars) would be no different than destroying Washington's headquarters in Newburgh, she says. Tanya Vanasse toured the building's interior recently. She wasn't impressed. Vanasse is the airport's director of marketing. She sees no reason to keep the building around. The airport's master plan calls for the building to come down sometime between 2008 and 2012, to make way for a rail yard that would be part of a new train station, according to Zimet. "I can see no viability of making this into a public space. It's far too dangerous, it's got far too many accessibility problems," she said last week. "I could see removing the (etched glass) pieces and building a display around them." Vanasse said the plan is open ended, that no hard-and-fast timetable exists. Nevertheless, Zimet's group is urging people to sign petitions that would preserve the building. In the meantime, the SAGE building, silent and foreboding as a tomb, continues to do what it has always done: It waits. Anti-blast from the past was built to last If it goes, the Semi-Automatic Ground Environment building won't go easily. Its thick, lead-reinforced concrete walls were intended to withstand the ravages of a nuclear holocaust. Only a direct hit could have taken it out. The building was designed in the mid-1950s as part of a network of identical information-gathering centers built throughout the country that was supposed to protect the country's nuclear bomber fleet. Its designers intentionally made it so nondescript that only a handful of military personnel even knew of its existence or purpose. Its computer system was beyond compare, requiring thousands of square feet and at least as many delicate transistors to track potential intruders. Watching the skies at a SAGE building console, said one retired Air Force veteran, was like something out of "Buck Rogers." But, like so many other state-of-the-art defense systems, this one was obsolete almost before it became operational. It was designed to combat nuclear bombers. By the end of the decade, intercontinental ballistic missiles had become the bomb delivery system of choice. The structure was officially decommissioned in 1969. Since then, it has served as a free-trade zone. Its ground floor is now occupied by a chocolate- packaging factory. Jeremiah Horrigan E-mail this story Print this story Subscribe to the Record Today's top news headlines ? DPW blackmail unfolds ? Tragedy strikes family ? Locals doubt camp's zoning ? Cold War building faces colder reality ? County trash hauler plans recycling fee See all of today's news stories. Online special features News ? Remembering the fallen A tribute to the local soldiers we have lost. ? Middletown on Trial Continuing coverage of the Mayor Destefano trial. ? Report Card 2005 A report card on our schools. Includes statistics on our local districts. Have the top headlines from the Times Herald-Record e-mailed to you every morning. Sign up here. Have a tip about a news story? Contact THR Managing Editor Meg McGuire at mmcguire at th-record.com or call 346-3041. SPOTLIGHT ON ... Otterkill Golf & Country Club "Orange County's Premier Golf Course." 100 Otter Road Campbell Hall, NY 845-427-2020 ? Visit Website Record Online is brought to you by the Times Herald-Record, serving New York's Hudson Valley and the Catskills. 40 Mulberry Street * PO Box 2046 * Middletown, NY 10940 Telephone 845-341-1100 or 800-295-2181 outside the Middletown, N.Y., area. Copyright Orange County Publications. All rights reserved. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.15/49 - Release Date: 7/14/2005 From cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co Sat Jul 16 10:36:28 2005 From: cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:36:28 -0400 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk References: <000a01c58a0c$217985a0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <42D9297C.167A3463@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Bob Shannon wrote: > > You don't set what an item is worth. > > The highest bidder does. Actually, in eBay it is the next-to-highest who does. -- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia ---- "I don't know a lot necessarily about the business or the industry, but I know how to kick butt. That's what I do." Jeffrey R. Immelt, General Electric's CEO, to executives of GE's daughter company MSNBC. From vrs at email.msn.com Sat Jul 16 19:30:27 2005 From: vrs at email.msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:30:27 -0700 Subject: Oops -- hit 'enter' too soon -- rest of message here -- RE: Needcontact information for dkdkk References: <42D936A9.8080009@vzavenue.net> <3.0.6.32.20050716170601.00960100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: From: "Joe R." > >That's ridiculous! Sellam is not crying that he couldn't afford to win one > >or two specific auctions because of Dennis K(full surname unknown). Some > >people may not like Sellam's word choice, but he's speaking up in defense of > >all of us. > > He's not speaking for me! I respect Sellam but I think he's wrong here. > I know Dennis (and I know his last name) and I see no reason to complain > about what he buys on E-bay. It's a free country and he's free to buy > whatever he wants and can afford. You don't know Dennis or what his reasons > or goals are and you and Sellam have no more right to complain about him > than you do about someone like Al Kossow who ALWAYS gets what he goes after > on E-bay. Joe's pretty much echoed my opinions here; I don't see any reason for causing dkdkk trouble. I think he's doing what many of us might do with an unlimited budget. > >Would you be happy, James, because it ups the value of your C64 or TRS-80 > >from $20 to $500? Or would you be ticked because some idiot who didn't do > >his homework is crashing the entire market for those machines? > > > >That's just hypothetical; I'm sure we all strongly hope that Dennis K. turns > >out to be responsible in the end, since according to Bill Maddox, he was > >formerly associated with the Boston Computer Museum. >From what I can tell, he's a collector of vintage computing paraphanalia, same as any of the rest of us. > >Attention, Vince (vrs at msn.com) -- you're the only person on cctalk who said > >you directly know who Dennis K. is. > > Vince isn't the only one that knows Dennis. I know him and I've known > him for a couple of years. I didn't speak up sooner in the hope that this > rediculous thread would die on it's own but when I won't stand by when you > start slandering people that you don't know! Thanks for speaking up; I'm on the road, so I haven't been getting to my email as quickly as usual. Vince From phil at ultimate.com Sat Jul 16 20:19:46 2005 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:19:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk Message-ID: <200507170119.j6H1JkZU002369@ultimate.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > The most frustration comes when I decide to "look back" and see how > nothing that I did made any difference in the end. Oh well, it was > fun at the time. Tim, As someone who worked on DEC-10's, for DEC (on FORTRAN-10/20), then using DEC-20's, your work on helping to save PDP-10 software alone qualifies you for sainthood in my book (and I imagine many others' as well)! I have my own little corner of the 20th century I've tried to save (www.gull-wing.net). Its it's own reward... Well, that at the e-mails I get on occasion saying someone thinks the web site is awsome... (In other words, I think your work is awsome!) phil From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Sun Jul 17 15:51:32 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:51:32 -0500 Subject: Need contact information for dkdkk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507172100.j6HL0bHT016722@keith.ezwind.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 12:57 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Need contact information for dkdkk > > > a billion dollars for doing nothing. Museums go off and do their > > stuff and the world never sees the results (if any) publicly. It > > frustrates > > This is something that annoys me too. Muesums acquire large > collections of machines, software and documentation which > then seems to be impossible to access. When I used to > volunteer at Bletchley, I was not allowed to look at their > documentation collection. OK, so I wanted some of the > information to repair my own machines, but so what? I was not > going to remove manuals permanently, or even temporarily. I > was not going to damage the manuals. I just wanted to look > something up. I certainly don't intend to operate our museum that way. So far I have not had any visitors, that wanted to touch the equipment, but we don't have much area to flounder around in anyway. If I have any documentation that I can share then that would be great. We have a very nice Xerox copier that will also function as a full duplex scanner. I can turn any loose-leaf document into TIFF files with very little effort. I have not started doing that yet but I will ADN. I will probably do documentation for our Four Phase IV/90 first since it is fairly rare. We can do books as well, but it is a lot more work since we have to turn the pages and push the buttons. Anybody who would like to stop by is more than welcome. I will let you scan anything we have or that you have if you will let us keep a copy. ... > Agreed. I fool around with these old machines because I enjoy > it. If I've helped one other person get a machien going, if > my home-made schematics have helped someone, or if I've just > encourages people to have a go, well that's enough for me. > But I'll keep on playing around anyway, because it's > something I enjoy doing. ... I guess my motivation is more like education. Maybe that's why I finally drifted into teaching. One brief example. During engineering week we put up a display from our connection. A student dropped by with a coed on his arm and asked about tab cards. I told him that we currently had a display in an obscure location with signs, etc. It was a fairly good display with cards from the WWII area, card boxes, mark sense cards, System 3 cards, card needles and card saws, various sizes of racks, a deck with a stripe marked across it, rubber bands, a card from a Yamaha loom and a tool to punch it with, ... http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/OurDisplays.asp (Scroll down to the 4th image.) I figured that I would never hear back from him. But a couple of hours later he wandered back by and told me that he checked it out and found it impressive and informative. The computer field has changed so much in the last 6 decades and most people have no idea about it. Students get a better understanding when you show them the magnet from an older disk drive that weighs about 50 pounds. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > > -tony > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 18 02:00:09 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 00:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ...still looking for MS-Fortran for ANY DOS puter Message-ID: <20050718070009.42253.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> are you the site administrator or something??? An offer to buy or trade would not have been ruled out. The COBOL compiler I mentioned was bought dopey person, with manuals, for 5 bucks. I mentioned the Borland Museum because I like passing on a hot tip once in a while, ummm like yourself (who isnt aware of e donkey?). But I dont feel the need to issue ultimatums. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > >I may have posted this request...plea...on cctech some > >time ago. I've been looking for an early Microsoft > >Fortran compiler for eons. Vanilla DOS version would > >be fine, but for something exotic like the Tandy 2000 > >or Zenith Z-100 would be exquisite. I was fortunate to > >obtain, oo, MS-COBOL recently, and to my amazement I > >managed to WinImage the disks. Version 2.0 or > >something. > > If any of you weren't aware, the earliest versions of > >Turbo Pascal and Turbo C are available for download on > >the Borland Museum. > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > Hi, I guess with anonymous "Chris M" with a throw-away yahoo address not > many people have many > trust in handing out copies of software to you. This software is > admittedly obsolete by far, but > is still copyrighted by Microsoft. What Borland does with their obsolete > software is their personal > preference, and is not transferable to other companies. > > Personal suggestion: look into emule/edonkey P2P networks for a key [Dos > Application], and don't tell > anyone what you might see, and never ask here again. > > Holger __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From korpela at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 11:05:37 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:05:37 -0700 Subject: Goodnight, OS/2... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/15/05, Cini, Richard wrote: > OK, the inevitable Slashdot-type question...when will IBM open license OS/2 > (if at all)? There have been calls for this for years before IBM finally > nailed the coffin shut. They probably can't. It's likely there is still Microsoft code lurking in the dark recesses of OS/2. At the very least, the 32-bit versions of OS/2 were written by developers with access to the 16-bit code which was, at least in part, owned by Microsoft. Eric From phillipmilks at netzero.com Mon Jul 18 14:42:08 2005 From: phillipmilks at netzero.com (phillipmilks at netzero.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:42:08 GMT Subject: Heath ET-3400 Trainer Simulator SW Message-ID: <20050718.124212.24385.34395@webmail39.nyc.untd.com> Sometime back, a company offered simulaton SW for the ET-3400 at this site : http://www.pilgrimworks.com/trainer.htm. It has been discontinued. I would like to find a copy of the program and docs. If anyone has a copy that they would part with or copy, please respond. TIA From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Mon Jul 18 18:20:31 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:20:31 -0500 Subject: Disk platter identification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507182329.j6INTZIf031907@keith.ezwind.net> OK. I have a disk platter that was donated by another faculty member. He said he thought it came from a PDP8. I would like to identify it more precisely if possible. I have attached a photo taken with my cell phone (limited resolution.) It has an architect's scale sitting on it that shows it has a radius of 8". It is about 1/4" thick and has holes drilled in the outside edge to balance it. The red color in the hole is just a binder sitting under it. I can make other measures if necessary or furnish a higher res. picture. Anybody recognize it? TIA, Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 18 22:24:30 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MindSet Pc Graphics computer 80186 cpu In-Reply-To: <42D7D8CA.3030408@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20050719032430.72389.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> I don't really understand the question, but I'll take a stab anyway - no I don't know where you could find one. Let me know when you do. But for what it's worth, Lumena ran on other computers, for a fact the Tandy 2000. I owned it the days of lore. It was really just the equivalent of modern day paint programs. fzrfast wrote:Does anyone know of complete Mindset Pc system including TimeArts Lumena paint package that ran on that computer? Early 1980's stuff. Jim Cox --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page From Jonathan.Zvi.Gevaryahu at drexel.edu Tue Jul 19 08:48:15 2005 From: Jonathan.Zvi.Gevaryahu at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:48:15 -0400 Subject: Working? MicroVax 3600 free for the taking, imminent disposal Message-ID: <42DD049F.9010604@drexel.edu> A digital MicroVax 3600 and its requisite heap of media has recently been trashed by the physics department at Drexel University. It is sitting in the hallway of the 7th floor of Disque Hall (building 12) at 3141 Chestnut Street in Philadelphia. (Thats through the glass doors which are facing the gardens/walkways which are in the remains of 31st street, to the right toward market street once inside, then up the elevators to the 7th floor) The machine is intact, and according to someone I asked, it powered up and worked fine when tested 3 months ago. The machine includes an enormous pile of backup tapes, both spool and cartridge type. (the MicroVax 3600 has the RA-82 and TK-70 drives needed to read both types of media installed) The machine is the size of a narrow but tall washing-machine, and probably weighs around 300 pounds. Bring a Van or Minivan with the seats taken out! Also, the closest parking spaces are on the other side of chestnut street, (the nice little lot in front of disque has a gate blocking entry now...) I may be able to assist in moving the machine, depending on my class schedule. Also available is a large pile of Tape backups and spool backups from 1987 through 1991 at least. According to someone I asked, they contain experimental data from experiments run during that time. I know the tapes are compatible with any Video 8 videocassete recorder (which some camcorders use). I would take the machine myself, but I don't have the means to transport it and I don't have the space to store it. According to someone I asked, the machine is scheduled for disposal sometime later this week, so get it QUICK! If you need assistance moving the machine or dealing with Drexel security, email me at jzg22 @t drexel d0t edu (@t = @, d0t = .) Jonathan Gevaryahu lord_nightmare @t users d0t sf d0t net jzg22 @t drexel d0t edu P.S. Al Kossow: I'm sorry I never got back to you in february about the votrax manual, my life's been pretty hectic over the last 6 months. I'll email you later this week. From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Tue Jul 19 09:40:00 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:40:00 -0500 Subject: Disk platter identification In-Reply-To: <200507182329.j6INTZIf031907@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200507191449.j6JEn26g039112@keith.ezwind.net> Of course I should have realized by now that attachments don't get sent to the list. If I had read the introductory material I might have even been told that. . Here's an URL for the image in question: http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/Whazat.html TIA, Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Director > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 6:21 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' > Subject: Disk platter identification > > OK. I have a disk platter that was donated by another faculty > member. He said he thought it came from a PDP8. I would like > to identify it more precisely if possible. I have attached a > photo taken with my cell phone (limited resolution.) It has > an architect's scale sitting on it that shows it has a radius > of 8". It is about 1/4" thick and has holes drilled in the > outside edge to balance it. The red color in the hole is just > a binder sitting under it. I can make other measures if > necessary or furnish a higher res. picture. > > Anybody recognize it? > > TIA, > > Gil > > A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director > The Museum at CSE > University of Texas at Arlington > Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S > Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 > http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From mbonazzoli at intellitec.com Tue Jul 19 10:10:04 2005 From: mbonazzoli at intellitec.com (Matt Bonazzoli) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:10:04 -0500 Subject: Old MacOS NetTrek game? Message-ID: <000201c58c73$f18db1d0$26a9a8c0@florida.intellitec.local> Are you still looking for the NetTrek game for Mac SE's? I think I have it. I have an old SE with NetTrek still loaded. Great game. I used to play it on the network at the computer company I worked for back in 1987. Let me know. -Matthew From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 19 10:34:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 08:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: <1121771990.2273.5.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, the vinegar trick should probably go in the FAQ (along with the > fact that it tends to remove ink on ceramic chips - found that one out > the hard way once!) It is done. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 19 11:02:35 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:02:35 +0000 Subject: Apollo stuff In-Reply-To: <200507131557.j6DFvqPM061717@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507131557.j6DFvqPM061717@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1121788955.2291.32.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 10:48 -0500, Director wrote: > I would love to see pictures of the ends of the ATR cable. I have some ATR > cards and we will be putting one on display soon but I have never seen a > cable or the wall box. I'll see if I can grab a photo of the cable this weekend at the museum if nobody can oblige before then... At least one of our Apollos (either a 3000 or 3500) has a TR card in it that consists of two PCBs fastened together, whereas the more typical type is just a single full-length card. Whether there's anything special about the dual board version I don't know. > In later versions of IBM token ring the wall mounted box (MAU) did do > something, but in original IBM TR it was strictly passive. Ahh, that was what really prompted me to ask about the wall boxes - I worked for a software company for several years who favoured IBM TR over Ethernet, and recalled things not being as simple as just joining machines together as there was a rack of IBM electronics in the corner of each room. From what others have said about Apollo TR though it really is simple and the wall boxes are purely for cable routing. cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 19 11:46:25 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epson EX-1 office computer Message-ID: <200507191646.JAA02585@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > >Here's an oddity: > >Epson EX-1 accounting computer circa 1977. They make a lot of rather lame >claims (first this, first that, etc.) but interesting none the less. > >http://www.epson.co.jp/e/company/milestones_09_EX_1.htm > >Check out the PDF for a larger photo. Hi I have an interesting Epson printer that was made around 1975 or so. It is a belt type line printer. It comes with a double set of uppercase print heads. It has a junper option to do lower case but I've never located any lower case printer heads for it. I've only ever seen one of these. Dwight From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 11:46:01 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:46:01 -0500 Subject: Disk platter identification In-Reply-To: <200507191449.j6JEn26g039112@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507182329.j6INTZIf031907@keith.ezwind.net> <200507191449.j6JEn26g039112@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 7/19/05, Director wrote: > Here's an URL for the image in question: > > http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/Whazat.html At 1/4" thick, there's a chance it's a DF32 platter. I don't remember how large the hub hole is, but at first glance, and with the PDP-8 suggestion, that's what I'd have to guess. I have never seen an RF08 platter, so I don't know how physically similar they are. One thing to check for - is there a band of tape or other blacking material around the rim of the disk with a gap of a few mm? The DF32 has just such a gap for the rotation sensor. Not sure about the RF08. -ethan From cheri-post at web.de Tue Jul 19 11:50:11 2005 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:50:11 +0200 Subject: Dilog DQ3153 board Message-ID: <863421923@web.de> Hello Max, the first number (3) indicates that this controller has a S-handles, so its primarly conceived for VAXen. but it'll work in most PDP-11 as well, as it's Q-22. The S-handles might cause a problem for most PDP 11 backplanes. Sometimes though, it's possible to remove it. Regards, Pierre > Hello, > > I have a DQ3153 board. Am I right in that its a TMSCP SCSI board for a > qbus system? > Is it of any use for a PDP11 or is it just for Qbus Vaxen? > > _________________________________________________________________________ Mit der Gruppen-SMS von WEB.DE FreeMail k?nnen Sie eine SMS an alle Freunde gleichzeitig schicken: http://freemail.web.de/features/?mc=021179 From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jul 19 11:52:16 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old MacOS NetTrek game? In-Reply-To: <000201c58c73$f18db1d0$26a9a8c0@florida.intellitec.local> from Matt Bonazzoli at "Jul 19, 5 10:10:04 am" Message-ID: <200507191652.JAA16470@floodgap.com> > Are you still looking for the NetTrek game for Mac SE's? I think I have it. > I have an old SE with NetTrek still loaded. Great game. I used to play it > on the network at the computer company I worked for back in 1987. Let me > know. I'd like a copy myself, too, if possible. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is necessary to have purpose. -- Alice #1, Star Trek "I, Mudd" ---------- From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jul 19 11:54:49 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:54:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20050716073725.030bb098@mail.n.ml.org> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20050716073725.030bb098@mail.n.ml.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Jul 2005, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > STORY AS FOLLOWS: > > ... > > Its computer system was beyond compare, requiring thousands of square feet > and at least as many delicate transistors to track potential intruders. Transistors? Thousands of them?? Do some research, please. Not you, John. :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From kth at srv.net Tue Jul 19 11:58:33 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:58:33 -0600 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DD3139.6060701@srv.net> McFadden, Mike, A wrote: >I once had a chance to walk through my neighbor's basement in an old log >cabin summer house where he had lots of knob and tube wiring right about >head height. He was in the process of figuring out which circuits were >connected to it and how to replace it. The nails were set into the edge >of the 2 X 6 floor joists. It was scary since the floor joists were >only 6 feet off of the concrete floor that had been added over the >original dirt and rock. I've got poor peripheral vision and I was >afraid of sticking my head up against the wires. > >I think it's gone now. > > > Burned down? From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jul 19 11:57:36 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:57:36 -0400 Subject: Disk platter identification References: <200507182329.j6INTZIf031907@keith.ezwind.net> <200507191449.j6JEn26g039112@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <17117.12544.35000.399687@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Looks like an RF32 (PDP-8) or RF64 (PDP-11) fixed head disk platter. 32 or 64 kbytes, respectively. :-) I once had an RT11 system running from an RF64/RC11. paul From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Tue Jul 19 12:09:11 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:09:11 +0200 Subject: [ZS1] Compaticard IV - The evil non-existance software References: <8cb683b005071412145b03afa6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002201c58c84$9563bb00$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Craig Ricciuto" To: Subject: [ZS1] Compaticard IV - The evil non-existance software > I recently came across a MicroSolutions, Inc CompaticCard IV that I > need to install but I do not have the disks to install it. What makes you think that it doesnt exist? I have a ZIP file containing all (5) files. Who wants to host the file? Nico From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jul 19 12:12:43 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:12:43 -0400 Subject: Apollo stuff References: <200507131557.j6DFvqPM061717@keith.ezwind.net> <1121788955.2291.32.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <17117.13451.443000.849153@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: >> In later versions of IBM token ring the wall mounted box (MAU) did >> do something, but in original IBM TR it was strictly passive. Jules> Ahh, that was what really prompted me to ask about the wall Jules> boxes - I worked for a software company for several years who Jules> favoured IBM TR over Ethernet, and recalled things not being Jules> as simple as just joining machines together as there was a Jules> rack of IBM electronics in the corner of each room. From what Jules> others have said about Apollo TR though it really is simple Jules> and the wall boxes are purely for cable routing. I don't think IBM wall boxes did anything (other than act as a passive bypass if you unplug the drop cable). The active machinery was in the wiring closet, to bypass the cable to the wallbox if the workstation attached to it was turned off. With token ring you had a choice: 1. Just wire the wallboxes in a ring and plug in the workstations. Simple -- but if the workstation was off, the ring was down. (Fixable with a bypass relay -- in which case, if several stations were off, you'd exceed the cable segment limit.) 2. "Star" wire to a concentrator in a wiring closet, which would electronically bypass any stations that were off. This would make token ring fairly reliable, at the expense of a complex piece of hardware. FDDI had the same issues only more so, which is why TR failed eventually and FDDI failed almost immediately. FDDI also suffered severely from standards committee politics and committee-induced delay (much of it intentional). paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jul 19 12:19:58 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:19:58 -0400 Subject: Disk platter identification References: <200507182329.j6INTZIf031907@keith.ezwind.net> <200507191449.j6JEn26g039112@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <17117.13886.542000.748621@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> On 7/19/05, Director wrote: >> Here's an URL for the image in question: >> >> http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/Whazat.html Ethan> At 1/4" thick, there's a chance it's a DF32 platter. I don't Ethan> remember how large the hub hole is, but at first glance, and Ethan> with the PDP-8 suggestion, that's what I'd have to guess. Ethan> I have never seen an RF08 platter, so I don't know how Ethan> physically similar they are. Is the RF08 like the RF11? On second thought, that may be more like it. I forgot the size of the RF64, but I don't think it was 16 inches diameter. (I though 8 inches was diameter not radius...) For the RF11 that sounds just right. I haven't ever seen an RS03 or RS04 platter; that's probably about the same size as the RF11. I don't think the RF11 had a ritation sensor. It had a clock/timing track which encoded, among other things, the start of track mark. There was a gap at that point. When reformatting the timing track (if you replaced the platter, for example) you'd adjust a knob on the timing track formatter until its indicator lights showed that the gap length was within the required range. paul From GOOI at oce.nl Tue Jul 19 12:38:17 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:38:17 +0200 Subject: PSU schematic of the PDP-11/05 (11/10) needed Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1DA1@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi Ed, I did not download it (17M) but perhaps the first file here http://www.classiccmp.org/bitsavers/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105/ has a drawing of the PSU. - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: cctech at classiccmp.org Sent: 15-7-2005 18:51 Subject: PSU schematic of the PDP-11/05 (11/10) needed Hi All, I have a PDP-11/05 (11/10) in a 5.25" box version which I'm putting together. It's going to be equipped with 8Kb of core and a RX02 floppy interface. When powering up, led's come on, but there is not much action to get. Look like the -15V of the PSU is not working properly. The PSU is a different one compared to the well known bricks used in BA11 boxes. This one delivers +5V, +15V and -15V and is labelled 5409728. Anybody have a schematic of this PSU by any chance? Thanks, Ed From djg at drs-c4i.com Tue Jul 19 12:40:25 2005 From: djg at drs-c4i.com (David Gesswein) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:40:25 -0400 Subject: Disk platter identification Message-ID: <200507191740.j6JHeP317465@drs-c4i.com> Its to large to be a DF32 (10"x1/4"), 32k. Probably an RF08, 256k. DF32 picture at http://www.pdp8.net/dfds32/pics/df32diskorig.shtml?small. The later DF32's got rid of the optical sensor for disk rotation so may not have a band around the outside. They switched to a one shot off the data. Not sure what the RF08's did. From news at computercollector.com Tue Jul 19 12:51:29 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:51:29 -0400 Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20050716073725.030bb098@mail.n.ml.org> Message-ID: <200507191759.j6JHxYJx041789@keith.ezwind.net> Before we say the reporter was wrong, consider this: of course the main SAGE computers in the 1950s used vacuum tubes, but isn't it likely that the later, remote facilities (like the one in this story) used transistors? >>>> Transistors? Thousands of them?? Do some research, please. Not you, John. :-) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Boffemmyer IV Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 7:47 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: local demolition of SAGE building I saw this in today's copy of my local newspaper on-line. The location of the building is in New Windsor, NY. Stewart International Airport -as some of you know- sits on the border of the Town of Newburgh and New Windsor. It used to be and still is to a degree, a major Marine, Army and Air Force base. More currently, it is a commercial international airport and a base for the Air Force, local Army and Air Force Reserves and touts a pair of the biggest runways in the USA. It is the 3rd location on the list for emergency landings for the Space Shuttles if something should go wrong. Unfortunately, as this piece suggests, the military has already removed the actual SAGE equipment from the building. I used to go on walks past this building as a kid as there is a path near it that my family would take through a wooded area (scenic stuff) and up until recently, was open to the public, sort of like a park. I figured I'd send this to cctech because it has a lot of historical relevance. -John Boffemmyer IV STORY AS FOLLOWS: July 16, 2005 Cold War building faces colder reality By Jeremiah Horrigan Times Herald-Record jhorrigan at th-record.com New Windsor - You'll find it on the edge of Stewart International Airport, a windowless, four-story concrete cube that looks like it could withstand a nuclear blast. And that's exactly what it was built to do. If things had gone as many Americans feared during the Cold War, if the Russian bombers had finally come over the horizon, the Semi-Automatic Ground Environment building was the key to the country's military defense system. The building that once thrummed with the tensions of a time when nuclear Armageddon was a constant threat was abandonned by the military decades ago. The unnerving skeleton of its legacy remain, including the war room, where etched-glass maps of the Eastern U.S. display likely Russian targets. Above the maps looms a doomsday tote board, meant to track the "progress" of World War III. Even before the '50s faded and ICBMs became the weapon of choice among the world's super-powers, the SAGE building had become as antiquated as an Edsel. It's now slated for the wrecking ball under the airport's new 20-year master plan for development. And that plan is under siege by a group of people who for years have been laboring to transform the SAGE building into what they call a Cold War Peace Museum. Ulster County Legislator Susan Zimet has spearheaded the effort, lobbying, fundraising and proselytizing on the building's behalf for the past five years. To her, the building isn't a dead relic but a living reminder of an era she believes we forget at our peril. "All the stuff we deal with daily - terrorism, the possibility of nuclear terror or the situation in Korea - it all began with the Cold War." Zimet's not much of a history buff herself, and, after years of exploring possibilities, she's doubtful the building is suitable for becoming a first-class museum. But that, she argues, doesn't mean the building should be demolished. Taking it down (at an estimated cost of nearly a million dollars) would be no different than destroying Washington's headquarters in Newburgh, she says. Tanya Vanasse toured the building's interior recently. She wasn't impressed. Vanasse is the airport's director of marketing. She sees no reason to keep the building around. The airport's master plan calls for the building to come down sometime between 2008 and 2012, to make way for a rail yard that would be part of a new train station, according to Zimet. "I can see no viability of making this into a public space. It's far too dangerous, it's got far too many accessibility problems," she said last week. "I could see removing the (etched glass) pieces and building a display around them." Vanasse said the plan is open ended, that no hard-and-fast timetable exists. Nevertheless, Zimet's group is urging people to sign petitions that would preserve the building. In the meantime, the SAGE building, silent and foreboding as a tomb, continues to do what it has always done: It waits. Anti-blast from the past was built to last If it goes, the Semi-Automatic Ground Environment building won't go easily. Its thick, lead-reinforced concrete walls were intended to withstand the ravages of a nuclear holocaust. Only a direct hit could have taken it out. The building was designed in the mid-1950s as part of a network of identical information-gathering centers built throughout the country that was supposed to protect the country's nuclear bomber fleet. Its designers intentionally made it so nondescript that only a handful of military personnel even knew of its existence or purpose. Its computer system was beyond compare, requiring thousands of square feet and at least as many delicate transistors to track potential intruders. Watching the skies at a SAGE building console, said one retired Air Force veteran, was like something out of "Buck Rogers." But, like so many other state-of-the-art defense systems, this one was obsolete almost before it became operational. It was designed to combat nuclear bombers. By the end of the decade, intercontinental ballistic missiles had become the bomb delivery system of choice. The structure was officially decommissioned in 1969. Since then, it has served as a free-trade zone. Its ground floor is now occupied by a chocolate- packaging factory. Jeremiah Horrigan E-mail this story Print this story Subscribe to the Record Today's top news headlines . DPW blackmail unfolds . Tragedy strikes family . Locals doubt camp's zoning . Cold War building faces colder reality . County trash hauler plans recycling fee See all of today's news stories. Online special features News . Remembering the fallen A tribute to the local soldiers we have lost. . Middletown on Trial Continuing coverage of the Mayor Destefano trial. . Report Card 2005 A report card on our schools. Includes statistics on our local districts. Have the top headlines from the Times Herald-Record e-mailed to you every morning. Sign up here. Have a tip about a news story? Contact THR Managing Editor Meg McGuire at mmcguire at th-record.com or call 346-3041. SPOTLIGHT ON ... Otterkill Golf & Country Club "Orange County's Premier Golf Course." 100 Otter Road Campbell Hall, NY 845-427-2020 . Visit Website Record Online is brought to you by the Times Herald-Record, serving New York's Hudson Valley and the Catskills. 40 Mulberry Street * PO Box 2046 * Middletown, NY 10940 Telephone 845-341-1100 or 800-295-2181 outside the Middletown, N.Y., area. Copyright Orange County Publications. All rights reserved. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.15/49 - Release Date: 7/14/2005 From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 19 12:49:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Power and the RA82(actually aluminum wiring) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jul 2005, McFadden, Mike, A wrote: > Being it was the 1970's of course we had a TV, VCR, stereo, and a green > Lava lamp plugged into that socket. I think we had shag carpet and a > bean bag chair also. That describes my current decor. The 70s are back, baby! (Keep on truckin!) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From fzrfast at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 20 10:57:19 2005 From: fzrfast at bellsouth.net (fzrfast) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:57:19 -0400 Subject: Image Technology isa graphics board Message-ID: <42DE745F.2060306@bellsouth.net> Hello: Does anyone know where one might find an old Image Technology isa graphics board from the early 1980's? Jim Cox From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jul 19 13:15:19 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:15:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <200507191759.j6JHxYJx041789@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507191759.j6JHxYJx041789@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Before we say the reporter was wrong, consider this: of course the main SAGE > computers in the 1950s used vacuum tubes, but isn't it likely that the > later, remote facilities (like the one in this story) used transistors? The SAGE at Stewart was a full blown DC (Direction Center). According to radomes.org, the AN/FSQ-7 was the only equipment installed, and it was deactivated at the end of 1969. Coverage of the Boston Air Defense Sector at Stewart was taken over by the SAGE at Hancock Field in Syracuse, in November of 1969. Hancock's SAGE was one of the last to be deactivated, in October of 1983. Here's another article about Stewart's DC, from 2001: http://www.nationaltrust.org/magazine/archives/arch_story/101701.htm And a short blurb about SAGE at Stewart: http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/forts/fortsQ_S/sage.htm Here are some shots of the SAGE blockhouse at Stewart, as of 2001: http://radomes.org/museum/recent/StewartAFBNY.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 13:20:15 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:20:15 -0500 Subject: Dilog DQ3153 board In-Reply-To: <863421923@web.de> References: <863421923@web.de> Message-ID: On 7/19/05, Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > > Hello Max, > > the first number (3) indicates that this controller has a S-handles, so its primarly conceived for VAXen. > but it'll work in most PDP-11 as well, as it's Q-22. The S-handles might cause a problem for most PDP 11 backplanes. > Sometimes though, it's possible to remove it. Or one might be able to stuff it in a DECserver 500 case? (4 slots? S-handles, Q-22) -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 19 13:44:32 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:44:32 -0700 Subject: Does anyone know what this keyboard adapter is for? Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7530768047 I asked the seller what the gray pigtail was for and how you would use this with a 16500, and as usualfrom an eBay seller, got no reply. I have several of these, and when I opened them up they are completely passive with no connections between the PS2 and HIL connectors. The pigtail plugs into a 10 pin RJ style on the back, and the other three connectors run over to it. From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue Jul 19 14:03:11 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:03:11 -0500 Subject: Does anyone know what this keyboard adapter is for? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050719135956.07024820@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 11:44 AM 7/19/2005 -0700, you wrote: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7530768047 > >I asked the seller what the gray pigtail was for and how you >would use this with a 16500, and as usualfrom an eBay seller, >got no reply. > >I have several of these, and when I opened them up they are >completely passive with no connections between the PS2 and >HIL connectors. The pigtail plugs into a 10 pin RJ style on >the back, and the other three connectors run over to it. > > > My 16500B has a connector on the front for an optional keyboard and it looks like the pigtail on that box would plug into it. So I would guess it allows a PS/2 style keyboard to be used on the analyzer. If you have an extra, I wouldn't mind having one... --tom From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 19 13:58:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compaticard IV - The evil non-existance software In-Reply-To: <8cb683b005071412145b03afa6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Craig Ricciuto wrote: > I recently came across a MicroSolutions, Inc CompaticCard IV that I > need to install but I do not have the disks to install it. Does anyone > have the software for it that can give me a copy so I can finally > install this card? I don't know if it matters or not but I'm running > MS DOS 6.2 on the computer I'm trying to install it on. Hi Craig. I am pretty sure I have that handy in my office. I'll check later today (if I remember, so please ping me if you don't hear from me in a reasonable amount of time). If I find it, I'll be happy to make an image and throw it on my server for download. I'll post the URL at the appropriate time. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 19 14:09:19 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:09:19 -0700 Subject: Does anyone know what this keyboard adapter is for? Message-ID: <1aec03841b35c45e8943de9ce683dabf@bitsavers.org> My 16500B has a connector on the front for an optional keyboard and it looks like the pigtail on that box would plug into it. -- If you look closely, the connector on the front is a "two dot" HPIL connector, which would plug into the "HIL" connector on the adapter, not onto the pigtail. All I can imagine is this plugs onto some later style HP keyboard with a 10 pin RJ connector (Frank and I saw a kb like this at a flea market a week ago) then you plug an HIL cable into that. From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Jul 19 14:16:49 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anyone know what this keyboard adapter is for? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7530768047 > > I asked the seller what the gray pigtail was for and how you > would use this with a 16500, and as usualfrom an eBay seller, > got no reply. > > I have several of these, and when I opened them up they are > completely passive with no connections between the PS2 and > HIL connectors. The pigtail plugs into a 10 pin RJ style on > the back, and the other three connectors run over to it. > Looks just like the one used by HP 715 PA-RISC Workstations (I've got a bag of 10 or so) Peter Wallace From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 19 13:21:10 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:21:10 -0400 Subject: [ZS1] Compaticard IV - The evil non-existance software In-Reply-To: <002201c58c84$9563bb00$2101a8c0@finans> References: <8cb683b005071412145b03afa6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050719142110.00a5bb30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Nico, I'll host it (on Jay's server. Thanks Jay). I used to have a ZIP file there with all the CompatiCard files but lost it somewhere. Joe At 07:09 PM 7/19/05 +0200, you wrote: >From: "Craig Ricciuto" >To: >Subject: [ZS1] Compaticard IV - The evil non-existance software > > >> I recently came across a MicroSolutions, Inc CompaticCard IV that I >> need to install but I do not have the disks to install it. > >What makes you think that it doesnt exist? I have a ZIP file containing all >(5) files. Who wants to host the file? > >Nico > > > From cswiger at widomaker.com Tue Jul 19 14:38:37 2005 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (Chuck Swiger) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:38:37 -0400 Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: References: <200507191759.j6JHxYJx041789@keith.ezwind.net> <200507191759.j6JHxYJx041789@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20050719152921.031439f8@wilma.widomaker.com> At 02:15 PM 7/19/2005 -0400, you wrote: > Here are some shots of the SAGE blockhouse at Stewart, as of 2001: > >http://radomes.org/museum/recent/StewartAFBNY.html > I'm following the links from radomes.org and reading with interest about SAGE. At mitre.org it says: -When complete, the AN/FSQ-7 weighed 250 tons, and required a 3,000kW -power supply and over 49,000 vacuum tubes. When SAGE became fully -operational, it relied on 24 AN/FSQ-7s; they remained in service -until the Air Force ended the SAGE program in 1983. Is this TRUE? Did they actually use vacuum tube computers up untill 1983? --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jul 19 14:42:41 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:42:41 -0500 Subject: IBM 9674/2 on epay In-Reply-To: <000a01c58c75$1cf815d0$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <000a01c58c75$1cf815d0$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <200507191442.42001.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 19 July 2005 10:18, Heinz Wolter wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5789088559&categor >y=11215&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1 > > pretty good condition for 250$ and comes with a FC interface. > anybody know if this 9674 is capable of operating as a 9672? > Looks like a general G5 machine - but sold as a coupling facility > only? does that mean no expanded memory? would it make a nice little > linux box... This machine looks more like a G2 (R2/R3) box... It's definitely not a G5/6 (G5 coupling facilities are 9672 boxes), or G3/4 since I've seen all of those. Coupling facility means that the software on the laptop prevents you from using cards other than the coupling links (ISCM/ISCD boards). In theory, it's possible to upgrade a coupling facility to a normal machine, but you might need IBM to help you with that. I'm currently trying to do that with my new G5, and it's being a pain in the ass about it. :) By the way, those aren't fiberchannel interfaces, those are coupling facility links, don't expect to hook fiberchannel up to that machine. In any case, G2's aren't officially supported by Linux, though they do work (with emulated IEEE floating point), just kinda slowly. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jul 19 14:44:49 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:44:49 -0400 Subject: local demolition of SAGE building References: <200507191759.j6JHxYJx041789@keith.ezwind.net> <5.2.1.1.1.20050719152921.031439f8@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <17117.22577.9044.421264@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Swiger writes: Chuck> At 02:15 PM 7/19/2005 -0400, you wrote: >> Here are some shots of the SAGE blockhouse at Stewart, as of 2001: >> >> http://radomes.org/museum/recent/StewartAFBNY.html >> Chuck> I'm following the links from radomes.org and reading with Chuck> interest about SAGE. At mitre.org it says: Chuck> -When complete, the AN/FSQ-7 weighed 250 tons, and required a Chuck> 3,000kW -power supply and over 49,000 vacuum tubes. When SAGE Chuck> became fully -operational, it relied on 24 AN/FSQ-7s; they Chuck> remained in service -until the Air Force ended the SAGE Chuck> program in 1983. Chuck> Is this TRUE? Did they actually use vacuum tube computers up Chuck> untill 1983? Sounds right. I remember reading about this. It makes perfect sense. It's a critical application, and it has been running reliably on that hardware. It makes sense to continue running the hardware rather than deal with the cost and risk of porting it to new, unproven, technology. Another consideration: that machine had an amazing I/O bandwidth, especially considering its age. It would not have been easy to replace it in 1975. Finally -- what abort porting all the software? I assume it was in assembler. paul From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jul 19 14:47:33 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:47:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20050719152921.031439f8@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <200507191759.j6JHxYJx041789@keith.ezwind.net> <200507191759.j6JHxYJx041789@keith.ezwind.net> <5.2.1.1.1.20050719152921.031439f8@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Chuck Swiger wrote: > I'm following the links from radomes.org and reading with interest about > SAGE. > At mitre.org it says: > > -When complete, the AN/FSQ-7 weighed 250 tons, and required a 3,000kW > -power supply and over 49,000 vacuum tubes. When SAGE became fully > -operational, it relied on 24 AN/FSQ-7s; they remained in service > -until the Air Force ended the SAGE program in 1983. > > Is this TRUE? Did they actually use vacuum tube computers up untill 1983? You betchum. I worked on the one at McChord AFB (25AD) from January until August of 1983. It was shut down shortly after that. Even more amazing, it was still doing the job up until the end. By using both active and standby system, we had the ability to cover the airspace from California up to British Columbia. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jul 19 15:01:29 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:01:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: "Computer Notes" magazine In-Reply-To: <002401c58c74$43627c70$4e9c960c@PC311047611813> References: <002401c58c74$43627c70$4e9c960c@PC311047611813> Message-ID: <44500.162.123.17.80.1121803289.squirrel@dilbert.jimbrain.com> > Jim: > > This would be a tremendous asset to the Altair community. I have > some issues posted on my Web site, but there are a lot of holes. I do not > have any original issues -- only scans. > > I'd hope that you would consider allowing them to be scanned and > posted to the Web. I run an Altair emulation project, and I would love to > have scans of these as part of the collection. If you will hi-res scan them (or find someone who can), put them online, and email me the link, I will donate the issues the Altair community in your care. Sadly, it looks like I can only add 2 issues you do not already have, but you may find value in having the originals. On a tangential notes, I finally sorted the magazines last night. An entire stall of my garage is now littered with mags stacked by year and magazine name. -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jul 19 15:02:32 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:02:32 -0400 Subject: local demolition of SAGE building References: <200507191759.j6JHxYJx041789@keith.ezwind.net> <200507191759.j6JHxYJx041789@keith.ezwind.net> <5.2.1.1.1.20050719152921.031439f8@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <00bd01c58c9c$cd209aa0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Loewen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 3:47 PM Subject: RE: local demolition of SAGE building > On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Chuck Swiger wrote: > > > I'm following the links from radomes.org and reading with interest about > > SAGE. > > At mitre.org it says: > > > > -When complete, the AN/FSQ-7 weighed 250 tons, and required a 3,000kW > > -power supply and over 49,000 vacuum tubes. When SAGE became fully > > -operational, it relied on 24 AN/FSQ-7s; they remained in service > > -until the Air Force ended the SAGE program in 1983. > > > > Is this TRUE? Did they actually use vacuum tube computers up untill 1983? > > You betchum. I worked on the one at McChord AFB (25AD) from January > until August of 1983. It was shut down shortly after that. Even more > amazing, it was still doing the job up until the end. By using both > active and standby system, we had the ability to cover the airspace from > California up to British Columbia. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ How many vacuum tubes would need to be replaced yearly, and how would a few breaking affect the functioning of that equipment in real time? From cswiger at widomaker.com Tue Jul 19 15:08:12 2005 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <17117.22577.9044.421264@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200507191759.j6JHxYJx041789@keith.ezwind.net> <5.2.1.1.1.20050719152921.031439f8@wilma.widomaker.com> <17117.22577.9044.421264@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050719160344.U18196@wilma.widomaker.com> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Swiger writes: > > Chuck> Is this TRUE? Did they actually use vacuum tube computers up > Chuck> untill 1983? > > It makes perfect sense. It's a critical application, and it has been > running reliably on that hardware. It makes sense to continue running > the hardware rather than deal with the cost and risk of porting it to > new, unproven, technology. > I understand. They must have run the 49,000 tubes pretty conservatively to minimize failures (Unlike what we always hear about ENIAC). Even in 1976 my Heathkit VTVM got solid state plug in FET replacements for the two tubes ;) --Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jul 19 15:13:08 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <20050719160344.U18196@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <200507191759.j6JHxYJx041789@keith.ezwind.net> <5.2.1.1.1.20050719152921.031439f8@wilma.widomaker.com> <17117.22577.9044.421264@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050719160344.U18196@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, cswiger wrote: > I understand. They must have run the 49,000 tubes pretty > conservatively to minimize failures (Unlike what we always > hear about ENIAC). Even in 1976 my Heathkit VTVM got > solid state plug in FET replacements for the two tubes ;) Preventive maintenance played a huge part in the reliability of the system. The Q7 had a marginal checking system, which was used to test sections of the computer by slightly increasing or decreasing voltages to the modules. By running diagnostics with margins, we usually got a heads up on which tubes were about to fail, and could replace them before they actually failed in use. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 19 14:28:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:28:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: <1121771990.2273.5.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 19, 5 11:19:50 am Message-ID: > > On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 17:28 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Mon, 18 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: Having now managed to see said pictures, I wonder if the CPU is on the daughterboard. In particular, could the PGA package be something like a 32032? The other 2 'intersting' chips on said board might be an MMU and FPU or something. > Hmm, the vinegar trick should probably go in the FAQ (along with the > fact that it tends to remove ink on ceramic chips - found that one out > the hard way once!) I find citric acid more pleasant to use than vinegar, and just as effective. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 19 14:40:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:40:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: PSU schematic of the PDP-11/05 (11/10) needed In-Reply-To: <64330.192.168.1.1.1121446266.squirrel@192.168.1.1> from "Ed" at Jul 15, 5 06:51:06 pm Message-ID: > > Hi All, > > I have a PDP-11/05 (11/10) in a 5.25" box version which I'm putting > together. It's going to be equipped with 8Kb of core and a RX02 > floppy interface. When powering up, led's come on, but there is not > much action to get. Look like the -15V of the PSU is not working > properly. > > The PSU is a different one compared to the well known bricks used > in BA11 boxes. This one delivers +5V, +15V and -15V and is labelled 5409728. > > Anybody have a schematic of this PSU by any chance? I'm suiprised it;'s not on Bitsavers. Have you looked at all the 11/05 and 11/10 docs there? Maybe also the GT40 printset, the GT40 is built in the samve box with the same PSU (and for that matter an 11/05 CPU board set) I certainly have this schematic, but no easy way to get it to you. If you need help sorting out the PSU, feel free to ask me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 19 14:43:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:43:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <200507131510.j6DFAgW4059572@keith.ezwind.net> from "Director" at Jul 13, 5 10:01:38 am Message-ID: > > The connector is a DB-37, used mostly for RS-499, but this does not look > like that kind of device. The other common use for this connector is in > Analog/Digital control devices. I agree with the comment that it looks like I don't think you can deduce anything from the choice of connector. I've used a DC37 (note, AFAIK the DB37 does not exist, although the DB44 does) conenctor for all sorts of things, not related to RS449 or ADCs. IBM used it for the external floppy drive connector on the PC, for example. AFter all, not all DB25s are RS232 ports :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 19 14:50:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:50:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Museums, etc In-Reply-To: <009d01c58c77$b567c200$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Jul 19, 5 11:37:01 am Message-ID: > > > I've changed the Subject: line because this has little to do with > > the original subject, which in any case is best forgotten. > Yep. > > > a museum that won't let somebody who is giving their > > time free of charge to help with the operation of that museum > > look at their collection of documentation is certainly doing > > the above. > > This is a little like the issue of showing proper respect to Don Maslin's > wife. Build a friendship first, then pursue your interests second. I fail to see the connection. In the case of the museum, I'd volunteered to help out there. I'd spent several days working there. I just asked if I could look at their collection of documentation, in fact my initial request for for a printset for one of _their_ machines that I was working on (I had -- and had taken with me -- printsets for most of the system, but I didn't have them (IIRC) for the tape drive). I was basically told 'no way'. Contacting a relative of a deceased collector is rather different. In that case you are often not know to said relative (I was known to the people at Bletchley). There is also the time problem -- you need to leave it long enough that said relative is ready to deal with the effects of the collector, but no so long that he/she comes to the conclusion that nobody is interested in them. But anyway... > Might I suggest 1./ Identify a person most like yourself. 2./ Find your > best book on the period in your collection. 3./ Loan it to this person. > 4./ Wait 1 to 2 months. 5./ Converse on the subject. > There's 5 steps, there could be more... then make your request. I do not like lending out my manuals. Mainly because I am likely to need them myself. That said, if anyone at Bletchley had asked if I had a manual for some machine, and I had it, I would have been happy to bring it up on my next visit and let them look at it while I was there. Which is all I wanted to do with the museum's manuals. I didn't want to take them off-site. -tony From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Jul 19 15:04:52 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:04:52 -0400 (edt) Subject: "Computer Notes" magazine In-Reply-To: <44500.162.123.17.80.1121803289.squirrel@dilbert.jimbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Jul 19, 05 03:01:29 pm Message-ID: <200507192004.QAA10592@wordstock.com> And thusly Jim Brain spake: > > On a tangential notes, I finally sorted the magazines last night. An > entire stall of my garage is now littered with mags stacked by year and > magazine name. Pictures?! 8-) Cheers, Bryan From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jul 19 15:23:21 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:23:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <00bd01c58c9c$cd209aa0$0500fea9@game> References: <200507191759.j6JHxYJx041789@keith.ezwind.net> <200507191759.j6JHxYJx041789@keith.ezwind.net> <5.2.1.1.1.20050719152921.031439f8@wilma.widomaker.com> <00bd01c58c9c$cd209aa0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > How many vacuum tubes would need to be replaced yearly, and how would a few > breaking affect the functioning of that equipment in real time? I don't have the figures for annual tube replacement, but it was a continuous process. As I mentioned in my last note, the marginal checking system allowed us to pull suspected flaky or about-to-fail tubes before they failed on duty. Various SAGE histories have reported "technicians running up and down the aisles pushing shopping carts full of tubes". I don't know about other air divisions, but I never saw it. Towards the end of the system's life, the remaining SAGE systems had to make due with tubes scrounged from previously deactivated systems. According to others who worked on the system, sometimes the replacements were worse than the ones currently in use. The SAGE system actually had two computerss: one running the air defense program and the other usually on standby. When the standby system wasn't undergoing preventive maintenance (PM), it would be receiving updates from the active system in case it needed to take over. If the standby system sensed that the active computer was no longer functioning correctly, it would automatically switch over and start cycling the air defense program. If something happened that the standby didn't automatically switch in case of a failure, we'd have to do a manual switchover. Depending on the circumstances, this procedure could take up to 3 minutes, which is all the down time we were allowed before having to report a "noplex" condition to NORAD. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 15:25:59 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:25:59 -0400 Subject: What is GenRad 2293 central station? (related to DEC?) Message-ID: I saw a GenRad 2293 central station today. It looks like a computer. It stands with a digital storageworks frig size frame, but I don't know whether they are related. I looked at the back and found various ports, with one labeled "TK 50". Does anybody know what is inside? From fzrfast at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 20 14:10:54 2005 From: fzrfast at bellsouth.net (fzrfast) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:10:54 -0400 Subject: Image Technology isa graphics board Message-ID: <42DEA1BE.7040504@bellsouth.net> Hello: Does anyone know where one might find an old Image Technology isa graphics board from the early 1980's? Jim Cox From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Jul 19 16:14:53 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:14:53 -0400 Subject: What is GenRad 2293 central station? (related to DEC?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DD6D4D.nailHT3126DMF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > It looks like a computer. It probably is/was a computer with I/O boards to connect to various instruments. I'm not sure what the 2293 did, but GenRad had many standard and custom instruments they made over many decades. > one labeled "TK 50" Very likely you'll find a Q-bus backplane and DEC cards inside. Tim. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 19 16:17:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <200507191759.j6JHxYJx041789@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Before we say the reporter was wrong, consider this: of course the main SAGE > computers in the 1950s used vacuum tubes, but isn't it likely that the > later, remote facilities (like the one in this story) used transistors? No. ;) Plain and simple, this reporter did not do their homework. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 19 16:19:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20050719152921.031439f8@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Chuck Swiger wrote: > At 02:15 PM 7/19/2005 -0400, you wrote: > > > Here are some shots of the SAGE blockhouse at Stewart, as of 2001: > > > >http://radomes.org/museum/recent/StewartAFBNY.html > > > > I'm following the links from radomes.org and reading with interest about SAGE. > At mitre.org it says: > > -When complete, the AN/FSQ-7 weighed 250 tons, and required a 3,000kW > -power supply and over 49,000 vacuum tubes. When SAGE became fully > -operational, it relied on 24 AN/FSQ-7s; they remained in service > -until the Air Force ended the SAGE program in 1983. > > Is this TRUE? Did they actually use vacuum tube computers up untill 1983? Yes. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 19 16:44:09 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:44:09 +0000 Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121809449.2273.54.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 20:28 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 17:28 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Mon, 18 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Having now managed to see said pictures, I wonder if the CPU is on the > daughterboard. In particular, could the PGA package be something like a > 32032? The other 2 'intersting' chips on said board might be an MMU and > FPU or something. Conveniently, the heatsink fell off the PGA during cleaning (I wasn't even poking at it, so the heatsink compound must have seen better days) The chip's a 32332 - google suggests that's a second generation 32032 CPU, although it's not a part number I've come across before (we've got some Natsemi databooks at BP; I'll have to see if it's listed) > > Hmm, the vinegar trick should probably go in the FAQ (along with the > > fact that it tends to remove ink on ceramic chips - found that one out > > the hard way once!) > > I find citric acid more pleasant to use than vinegar, and just as effective. Nice tip, ta :) I've nuked as much of the corrosion on the motherboard as is possible and (as Sellam suspected) it's not too bad - I can see me needing to redo some of the joints on the battery board, but I think the motherboard may well be OK as-is. Next on the list is re-fixing that heatsink and dumping the ROMs. PSU test after that, then I need to find the battery board schematic I drew ages ago for the MG-1 (they use the same board) and figure out how to bypass the charging circuitry... I've got a monitor with the machine, but not had a good look at it yet - I'm not sure if I have a video lead so might have to break out the 'scope and work that one out. Of course the hard disk may well be toast, in which case it's all for nowt... getting MG-1 OS media is difficult enough, I expect it'd be impossible for the 200 series machines! cheers Jules From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Jul 19 16:46:37 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:46:37 -0500 Subject: DQ656 manual? In-Reply-To: <200507182307.j6IN7OMx006465@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200507192155.j6JLtibx044657@keith.ezwind.net> I would so love to purchase one of these cards! Can you hook me up? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 6:07 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: DQ656 manual? Does anyone have a manual for a Dilog DQ656? It's a QBUS disk controller, and I believe it's ESDI and does MSCP. I just discovered I have one, but I have no manual and can't find anything on the web. Also, I think I found a small cache of Emulex UC07's for $75 each. I think there are 3 left. I ordered one. If anyone else finds that an attractive price let me know. I'm happy to be the fool who rushes in. -brad From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Jul 19 16:46:55 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:46:55 -0700 Subject: Intel Intelec 8 development system on auction Message-ID: <42DD74CF.2A4E3251@msm.umr.edu> 5218532758 Intelec 8 8080 development system on ePay, but looks nice. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 19 16:54:11 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 Message-ID: <200507192154.OAA02737@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 17:28 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> > On Mon, 18 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > >Having now managed to see said pictures, I wonder if the CPU is on the >daughterboard. In particular, could the PGA package be something like a >32032? The other 2 'intersting' chips on said board might be an MMU and >FPU or something. > >> Hmm, the vinegar trick should probably go in the FAQ (along with the >> fact that it tends to remove ink on ceramic chips - found that one out >> the hard way once!) > >I find citric acid more pleasant to use than vinegar, and just as effective. > >-tony > Hi Tony The vinegar has the advantage that it will evaporate over time while the citric acid requires good cleaning. Of course, even with the vinegar, the salts created by neutralizing the alkali from the battery needs to be removed so citric acid may not have any an issues. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 19 17:01:42 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building Message-ID: <200507192201.PAA02742@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > >> Before we say the reporter was wrong, consider this: of course the main SAGE >> computers in the 1950s used vacuum tubes, but isn't it likely that the >> later, remote facilities (like the one in this story) used transistors? > >No. > >;) > >Plain and simple, this reporter did not do their homework. > Hi You forget, they write stories. You can say anything that you like in a story. Dwight From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jul 19 17:12:04 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:12:04 -0500 Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: <1121809449.2273.54.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1121809449.2273.54.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200507191712.04727.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 19 July 2005 16:44, Jules Richardson wrote: > Conveniently, the heatsink fell off the PGA during cleaning (I wasn't > even poking at it, so the heatsink compound must have seen better > days) > > The chip's a 32332 - google suggests that's a second generation 32032 > CPU, although it's not a part number I've come across before (we've > got some Natsemi databooks at BP; I'll have to see if it's listed) 32332's are indeed 2nd (or 3rd perhaps) generation NS32k chips. I've got an Encore Multimax multiprocessor UNIX box that's just filled with them. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 19 17:53:33 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Olivetti M30 L1 Message-ID: <200507192253.PAA02750@clulw009.amd.com> Hi For those in Italy, there is an Olivetti M30 L1 up on the Italian ebay. This is one of the machines that Olivetti put a Z8001 into. The problem is that he states, " No Shipping ". It is one of the rarer machines since it was designed to handle business projects. It is suppose to be a multi user machine as well. I'd love to have it but I don't think I can justify a trip to Italy to pick it up. Dwight From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Jul 19 18:29:00 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:29:00 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <42DD3139.6060701@srv.net> References: <42DD3139.6060701@srv.net> Message-ID: <20050719182900.1190aa1b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:58:33 -0600 Kevin Handy wrote: > McFadden, Mike, A wrote: > > >I once had a chance to walk through my neighbor's basement in an old > >log cabin summer house where he had lots of knob and tube wiring > >right about head height. He was in the process of figuring out which > >circuits were connected to it and how to replace it. The nails were > >set into the edge of the 2 X 6 floor joists. It was scary since the > >floor joists were only 6 feet off of the concrete floor that had been > >added over the original dirt and rock. I've got poor peripheral > >vision and I was afraid of sticking my head up against the wires. > > > > >I think it's gone now. > > > > > > > Burned down? > Knob and tube wiring isn't inherently hazardous, in fact it's usually very well installed. People took electricty seriously in the early years. It is spaced so that it doesn't suffer as much when it deteriorates as a lot of later wiring. And if you bang your head up against it in the cellar of an old house, you're going to get a shock, you won't burn the house down. I would MUCH rather live in a house with under-current (I think we have 80 amp service here) knob and tube wiring than in a 'modern' house built in the 70's with, say, Aluminum wiring. And I'm NOT impressed with a lot of the new wiring supplies. A plastic-base lamp housing is a LOT less reliable than an all ceramic and metal one. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 19 17:24:31 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:24:31 -0400 Subject: What is GenRad 2293 central station? (related to DEC?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050719182431.00a2e3e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Evidently you haven't been following my PDP-8 Saga of the last couple of weeks. I just helped a GenRad service guy clean out his inventory of DEC equipment. I got a PDP-8A out of the deal and LOADS of cards, manuals, docs and all manner of DEC related goodies. I don't know anything about the Genrad 2293 specificly but GenRad used a LOT of DEC computers to operate their test stations. Here's a picture of one built around a PDP-8A . I've also seen them use 11/23s, 11/34 and 11/44. I've seen those in person but I'm sure there were others that I never saw. One of the coolest DEC goodies that I have is a small GenRad box about 9" square and 12" deep. It has a HH 8" floppy drive in it and I thought that it was just an external disk drive when I got it but I opened it up and found that it was a complete PDP-11/23 along with a hard drive and floppy drive. It has RSX-11M installed on the hard drive. But too answer your question, it's almost certain that what you saw has a DEC computer inside. Joe At 04:25 PM 7/19/05 -0400, you wrote: >I saw a GenRad 2293 central station today. It looks like a computer. >It stands with a digital storageworks frig size frame, but I don't >know whether they are related. I looked at the back and found various >ports, with one labeled "TK 50". Does anybody know what is inside? > > From menadeau at comcast.net Tue Jul 19 18:46:34 2005 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:46:34 -0400 Subject: Interex shuts down References: <475c1534759ef3.4759ef3475c153@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <00f801c58cbc$1adf28a0$0b01a8c0@Mike> The HP user group, Interex, has abruptly ceased operations due to financial difficulties. The site is still up, and the publicly accessible information is still there, but the publications have been terminated. Interex has been around for 31 years, and has information and software archives. Thought I'd mention it here in case anyone wanted to attempt a rescue of those archives. --Mike From news at computercollector.com Tue Jul 19 18:52:31 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:52:31 -0400 Subject: Interex shuts down In-Reply-To: <00f801c58cbc$1adf28a0$0b01a8c0@Mike> Message-ID: <200507200000.j6K00LPX045812@keith.ezwind.net> Meanwhile, the "Encompass" group is still alive, but they're closely associated with HP itself -- some people say TOO closely. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Nadeau Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 7:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Interex shuts down The HP user group, Interex, has abruptly ceased operations due to financial difficulties. The site is still up, and the publicly accessible information is still there, but the publications have been terminated. Interex has been around for 31 years, and has information and software archives. Thought I'd mention it here in case anyone wanted to attempt a rescue of those archives. --Mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 19 18:32:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:32:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: <1121809449.2273.54.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 19, 5 09:44:09 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 20:28 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 17:28 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > On Mon, 18 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > Having now managed to see said pictures, I wonder if the CPU is on the > > daughterboard. In particular, could the PGA package be something like a > > 32032? The other 2 'intersting' chips on said board might be an MMU and > > FPU or something. > > Conveniently, the heatsink fell off the PGA during cleaning (I wasn't > even poking at it, so the heatsink compound must have seen better days) It wasn't uncommon to use the silicone grease type of heatsink compound to fix small heatsinks back then. And they do then tend to fall off... > The chip's a 32332 - google suggests that's a second generation 32032 > CPU, although it's not a part number I've come across before (we've got I've heard of it, but doubt if I have data anywhere. > some Natsemi databooks at BP; I'll have to see if it's listed) > Next on the list is re-fixing that heatsink and dumping the ROMs. PSU > test after that, then I need to find the battery board schematic I drew I haev mine to hand... Incidentally, RS sold (sell?) some battery holders that will fit in place of the tagged NiCds, straight onto that PCB (I think that's why there are extra connecting holes for them) and you can then fit normal AA NiCds. > ages ago for the MG-1 (they use the same board) and figure out how to > bypass the charging circuitry... Why do you need to do that? Why not just fit the NiCds? Or are you talking about 'jump strarting' the machine to get it to power up in the first place? To do that, connect a 9V battery, +ve to pin 3 of J13, -ve to pin 2. I happen to have the MG1 'Support Note 5', 'Jump Start Lead and Method' in front of me. The connector is what Maplin call a 3 way Minicon. Pin 1 is marked on the shell, and isn't used. The other 2 pins go to the battery as I've just described.. The procedure is to plug the canle into J13, according to the diagram in the manual, pin 1 is closest to the fuseholder/rear panel. When the system has booted, you unplug the lead and leave the machine running for 15 minutes to charget the NiCds. > Of course the hard disk may well be toast, in which case it's all for > nowt... getting MG-1 OS media is difficult enough, I expect it'd be > impossible for the 200 series machines! No use to you at the momnet, but I do have the MG1 distribution kit. -tony From menadeau at comcast.net Tue Jul 19 19:00:24 2005 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:00:24 -0400 Subject: Interex shuts down References: <200507200000.j6K00LPX045812@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <000d01c58cbe$08069090$0b01a8c0@Mike> > Meanwhile, the "Encompass" group is still alive, but they're closely > associated with HP itself -- some people say TOO closely. It's a little suspicious that Interex shuts down right after HP announces its "realignment." The big IT companies find ways to support the user groups, directly or indirectly. A cut in aid could have precipitated this, but I don't know that for a fact. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Michael Nadeau > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 7:47 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Interex shuts down > > The HP user group, Interex, has abruptly ceased operations due to financial > difficulties. The site is still up, and the publicly accessible information > is still there, but the publications have been terminated. Interex has been > around for 31 years, and has information and software archives. Thought I'd > mention it here in case anyone wanted to attempt a rescue of those archives. > > --Mike > > From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jul 19 19:04:35 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:04:35 -0400 Subject: Olivetti M30 L1 In-Reply-To: <200507192253.PAA02750@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050719200049.03a4ec28@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Dwight K. Elvey may have mentioned these words: >Hi > For those in Italy, there is an Olivetti M30 L1... [snip] Looks like a gnarly machine, but I couldn't justify it even if he would ship... Also on ePay, here in the states (NH): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5220080088 What looks to be (to my untrained eye) an Olivetti diskless workstation, with two VGA outputs. Looks kinda gnarly also, but I can't justify that one, either... Ah well... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Jul 19 20:05:08 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:05:08 -0400 Subject: Apollo stuff References: <200507131557.j6DFvqPM061717@keith.ezwind.net> <1121788955.2291.32.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <001101c58cc7$1421b0e0$0100a8c0@screamer> The two-board token ring card is simply an older revision. One engineer at Apollo told me that the older board is slightly faster. Newer ATR boards have special hybrid modules that the older board lacks. I'd heard that there is something about these modules that effects the performance of the board at the ISA bus level of the board. I think at the register level the two boards are identical. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 12:02 PM Subject: RE: Apollo stuff > On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 10:48 -0500, Director wrote: >> I would love to see pictures of the ends of the ATR cable. I have some >> ATR >> cards and we will be putting one on display soon but I have never seen a >> cable or the wall box. > > I'll see if I can grab a photo of the cable this weekend at the museum > if nobody can oblige before then... > > At least one of our Apollos (either a 3000 or 3500) has a TR card in it > that consists of two PCBs fastened together, whereas the more typical > type is just a single full-length card. Whether there's anything special > about the dual board version I don't know. > >> In later versions of IBM token ring the wall mounted box (MAU) did do >> something, but in original IBM TR it was strictly passive. > > Ahh, that was what really prompted me to ask about the wall boxes - I > worked for a software company for several years who favoured IBM TR over > Ethernet, and recalled things not being as simple as just joining > machines together as there was a rack of IBM electronics in the corner > of each room. From what others have said about Apollo TR though it > really is simple and the wall boxes are purely for cable routing. > > cheers > > Jules > > > From mbileau at crsrecycle.com Tue Jul 19 20:45:37 2005 From: mbileau at crsrecycle.com (Marc Bileau) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 21:45:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RS/6000 lock and key Message-ID: <200507200145.VAA17037@captain.cnchost.com> Anyone want (cost of shipping) a lock and key (with panel) from a powerstation 530 (I'm guessing- it's still at work). Also from a smaller one, think its a 7012. We dissasemble them at work and I saved these after the thread on these locks and keys. Thanks, Marc From rick at rickmurphy.net Tue Jul 19 21:33:49 2005 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:33:49 -0400 Subject: Disk platter identification In-Reply-To: <200507191449.j6JEn26g039112@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507182329.j6INTZIf031907@keith.ezwind.net> <200507191449.j6JEn26g039112@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050719223057.01ef8528@mail.itm-inst.com> At 10:40 AM 7/19/2005, Director wrote: >Of course I should have realized by now that attachments don't get sent to >the list. If I had read the introductory material I might have even been >told that. . > >Here's an URL for the image in question: > >http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/Whazat.html Based on the size, that's a RF08 platter. It's too big to be a DF32 platter. (Assuming it did come from a PDP-8 connected drive.) It's probably not useful outside the drive it came from unless you reformat it on the new drive. There's very little chance the heads will line up on any other drive. -Rick From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jul 19 22:14:35 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 23:14:35 -0400 Subject: RS/6000 lock and key In-Reply-To: <200507200145.VAA17037@captain.cnchost.com> References: <200507200145.VAA17037@captain.cnchost.com> Message-ID: <42DDC19B.6080107@mdrconsult.com> Marc Bileau wrote: > Anyone want (cost of shipping) a lock and key (with panel) from a powerstation 530 (I'm guessing- it's still at work). Also from a smaller one, think its a 7012. We dissasemble them at work and I saved these after the thread on these locks and keys. Thanks, If nobody else wants it, it would be good to put on this 7013-520 that's earmarked for John Keys' museum. I, uh, "customized" the existing lock long ago. Doc From news at computercollector.com Tue Jul 19 23:03:32 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:03:32 -0400 Subject: Kfest reports Message-ID: <200507200411.j6K4BXMx047928@keith.ezwind.net> People are posting to A2central.com, as in past years. Wishing I could be there! http://www.a2central.com/article.php?story=20050719192547804 ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 770 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 00:21:47 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:21:47 -0700 Subject: Does anyone know what this keyboard adapter is for? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e905071922212a06c224@mail.gmail.com> > Looks just like the one used by HP 715 PA-RISC Workstations (I've got a bag of > 10 or so) > > Peter Wallace That looks like the right answer. Series 700 Model 715 Workstations: Service Handbook http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bc/docs/support/SupportManual/lpv37699/lpv37699.pdf HP-HIL Connector Model 715/C, 715/33, 715/50, and 715/75 workstations are equipped with an HP-HIL connector, which provides an interface for the system's keyboard, mouse, and other optional HIL input devices. Consult the documentation that accompanies each input device for specific information concerning its use. 10-Pin Modular Jack Model 715/64, 715/80, 715/100, and 715/100XC workstations are equipped with a 10-pin modular jack. A Keyboard Adapter Module attaches to this connector by means of a special cable shipped with the unit. The Keyboard Adapter Module includes two mini-DIN connectors and an HP-HIL connector. The mini-DIN connectors provide an interface for a AT-style keyboard and other mini-DIN input devices. The HP-HIL connector provides an interface for an HP keyboard, mouse, or other optional HIL input devices. Consult the documentation that accompanies each input device for specific information concerning its use. From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jul 20 00:47:35 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:47:35 -0500 Subject: "Computer Notes" magazine In-Reply-To: <200507192004.QAA10592@wordstock.com> References: <200507192004.QAA10592@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <42DDE577.1090705@jbrain.com> Bryan Pope wrote: >And thusly Jim Brain spake: > > >>On a tangential notes, I finally sorted the magazines last night. An >>entire stall of my garage is now littered with mags stacked by year and >>magazine name. >> >> > >Pictures?! 8-) > > > Sadly no. I'm taking up the SO's garage space, so time is of the essence. I'm already on borrowed time as it is dragging all this home. It wasn't all that impressive. Just a bunch of clutter. However, I'll take a snap of the trailer soon. My original idea was to dump all the stuff in the trailer so I could hitch it up to the truck is a pinch and get it out of the garage. Hwoever: a) Not everything would fit in the trailer. b) The stuff weighs too much. The tires are rated for 1000 pounds each when fully aired up, and they are flattened. I need to put the trailer on blocks to save the tires. I found some first issues in the stacks, and have augmented my collection quite a bit. It's taking a bit longer than I hoped because I am trading up on my current copies of some mags if the new copies are in better shape. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From vp at cs.drexel.edu Wed Jul 20 00:52:02 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Repairing an HP 9810 (was Museums, etc) Message-ID: <20050720055202.904C33BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> To help better understand Tony's (Duell) discussion of the 9810 repair, have a look at http://www.rheinfeld.de/andreas/9810.htm where Andreas also describes his repair of an 9810 using Tony's schmatics (available on the HPCC cdrom). **vp From Mzthompson at aol.com Wed Jul 20 01:12:26 2005 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:12:26 EDT Subject: Next Mouse Message-ID: <1ad.3b45a150.300f454a@aol.com> On 14 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > You have more than one cube and slab? That's just greedy! ;-) How about two turbo slabs? How about if they have consecutive serial numbers? How about several spare mice and keyboards? BTW, I am planning on bringing the above to VCF Midwest 1.0 and it will be for sale. Actually greedy is when you have 113 Next machines. I couldn't help it though, a local university was about to drop them in the dumpster when I got wind of their plans. I rescued the whole lot and they now have new homes. Mike Thompson From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 01:27:18 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:27:18 -0500 Subject: Next Mouse In-Reply-To: <1ad.3b45a150.300f454a@aol.com> References: <1ad.3b45a150.300f454a@aol.com> Message-ID: On 7/20/05, Mzthompson at aol.com wrote: > BTW, I am planning on bringing the above (NeXT collection) to VCF > Midwest 1.0 and it will be for sale. I wish I'd had time to sift through my NeXTs... I have a cube I'm keeping and several slabs, of which I only want to keep one, but no time to get them ready to move. > Actually greedy is when you have 113 Next machines... Wow! That's a lot of anything to find in a dumpster (except maybe floppies or magtapes) -ethan From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jul 20 03:11:37 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:11:37 +0200 Subject: Apollo stuff In-Reply-To: <200507131606.j6DG6OZA061780@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507131606.j6DG6OZA061780@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050720101137.0e298978.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:57:21 -0500 "Director" wrote: > The Apollo cards I have have a strange connector. It appears to have > two coax and a half dozen wires in a DB form factor. It is called a 7W2 connector. > I did not get any cables, so I have no idea what connections are > actually used. Only the two coax connectors are used. They are simply ring in and out. You connect ring out of one machine to ring in of the next until you closed the ring. The cables are 75 ohm RG59. > I can't see how you could use a modern TR cable with that since it was > 4 wire shielded twisted pair. F connectors would imply coax. TR != ATR. Apollo Token Ring is a thing of its own, not compatible with the Token Ring that IBM and a few others used. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Jul 20 05:14:30 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:14:30 -0400 Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42DE2406.nailNX5116KX7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Did they actually use vacuum tube computers up until 1983? Yep. And the military continued buying tubes for radio equipment through most of the 1980's. Many of the excesses are making their way to the surplus market... look at the datestamps on JAN tubes showing up NOS NIB on E-bay. The military still buys microwave/high-power/CRT tubes of course. Tim. From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jul 20 05:43:16 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:43:16 -0400 Subject: BA123/RQDX3 floppy question Message-ID: <200507201043.j6KAhGcV023271@mwave.heeltoe.com> I aquired an aged BA-123 a while back. It has an RQDX3 and the interesting "distribution board" for the MFM disks. The floppy (dual RX50) has a cable coming out of it which just hangs in the air. I'm guessing that some kind soul removed a card which some how connected the floppy cable to the disk distribution board. I say this because at the end of the BA-123 backplane there is a spacer and then two "qbus like" slots. The bottom slot has the MFM disk distribution board connected plugged into it and the top slot is empty. Anyone have a clue about this? I'll probably ditch the RX50 in favor of a stock PC 5 1/4" drive but I'll still have to connect it to the RQDX3 somehow. thanks! -brad From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jul 20 06:37:51 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:37:51 -0400 Subject: BA123/RQDX3 floppy question Message-ID: <0IJX003N2CAZQT20@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: BA123/RQDX3 floppy question > From: Brad Parker > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:43:16 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >I aquired an aged BA-123 a while back. It has an RQDX3 and the >interesting "distribution board" for the MFM disks. > >The floppy (dual RX50) has a cable coming out of it which just hangs in >the air. > >I'm guessing that some kind soul removed a card which some how connected >the floppy cable to the disk distribution board. I say this because at >the end of the BA-123 backplane there is a spacer and then two "qbus >like" slots. The bottom slot has the MFM disk distribution board >connected plugged into it and the top slot is empty. > >Anyone have a clue about this? > >I'll probably ditch the RX50 in favor of a stock PC 5 1/4" drive but >I'll still have to connect it to the RQDX3 somehow. > >thanks! > >-brad That distribution board has a connector labeled RX50. The RQDX3 has a 50 pin cable that goes to that disti board and from there you should have the usual rats nest of 34pin (floppy), and 40/26pin (hard disks) from the distibrution board to drives. While your in there check the fans! Allison From James at jdfogg.com Wed Jul 20 07:41:43 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:41:43 -0400 Subject: local demolition of SAGE building Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045C0C@sbs.jdfogg.com> > >Plain and simple, this reporter did not do their homework. > > > > Hi > You forget, they write stories. You can say anything that > you like in a story. > Dwight Whoa buddy! You've asked for it now. Last time I made disparaging remarks in this list about our beloved and respected journalism community the crap rained down hard :-) ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Wed Jul 20 07:40:21 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:40:21 +1200 Subject: Tek 4041 GPIB controller References: <20050720055202.904C33BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <021a01c58d28$311d9e00$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Looking for information re the above 68000 based unit-particularly re the keyboard interface, but would welcome any info at all. The unit has a full ROM drawer and POSTs OK, but without a keyboard or DC100A tape with code to redirect control to the serial port, I'm somewhat stumped. (for the present, anyway) DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date: 19/07/2005 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 20 08:03:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:03:37 +0000 Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121864617.4050.19.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-20 at 00:32 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Next on the list is re-fixing that heatsink and dumping the ROMs. PSU > > test after that, then I need to find the battery board schematic I drew > > I haev mine to hand... Incidentally, RS sold (sell?) some battery holders > that will fit in place of the tagged NiCds, straight onto that PCB (I > think that's why there are extra connecting holes for them) and you can > then fit normal AA NiCds. I'm trying to decide what to do about the whole battery aspect. If the machine isn't going to be used for long periods of time then it makes sense not to have any batteries in it in case they leak (or whatever). But then if it doesn't need batteries during normal running, it seems a bit of a waste to have them there at all (and need to open up the case to fit them each time the machine's used) I presume they're normally used to keep some form of RAM containing configuration data alive though (plus maybe some kind of service processor operational) as well as providing power to the start up relay - so I'm not sure what the implications are there of not having them fitted. Maybe an external NiCd pack is the way to go - there are plenty of screw points at the rear of the case from which a suitable bracket for a battery box could be attached. Mind you, I'm sort of at the point where I think any machine which is to be stored for any period of time unused should have its PSU disconnected just to stop anyone trying to randomly power it up before doing some basic checks - in which case they'd need to open the case anyway. > No use to you at the momnet, but I do have the MG1 distribution kit. That's handy to know anyway; two of our three MG-1's have rather unwell hard disks which will need replacing before they can be made operational. cheers Jules From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jul 20 08:16:18 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:16:18 -0400 Subject: Tek 4041 GPIB controller In-Reply-To: <021a01c58d28$311d9e00$7900a8c0@athlon1200> References: <20050720055202.904C33BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050720091618.00a5f540@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> In case you're not already aware of it, the 4041 is about the same size and shape as the HP 9915 and it serves the same function (a small dedicated HP-IB controller). One major difference is that the 4041 has a small LED display and a calculator type keyboard so it is possible to operate it directly. The HP 9915 has no display and only a couple of function keys so it's impossible to control it by itself. IIRC you can also operate the 4041 via a terminal. I'm not sure but I seem to remember that you need a terminal ROM set to make that work. But I'm pretty sure that the terminal was auto detected and you didn't need to use a keyboard or any kind of tape to force the 4041 to use the terminal. I'm not sure but I think the serial port(s) were optional so you may not have one. I've had a lot of Tek 4041s over the years and even had two of the DDUs (Disk Drive Units) but I've only ever found ONE keyboard. I used to have a full set of manuals for the 4041 including the service manual but I gave all of it to Mike Haas and I think he's since sold them. I think my buddy in Sanford probably has manuals for it but I don't know when I'll be over in that area again. Joe At 12:40 AM 7/21/05 +1200, you wrote: >Looking for information re the above 68000 based unit-particularly re >the keyboard interface, but would welcome any info at all. The unit >has a full ROM drawer and POSTs OK, but without a keyboard or DC100A >tape with code to redirect control to the serial port, I'm somewhat >stumped. (for the present, anyway) >DaveB, NZ > > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date: 19/07/2005 > > From dogas at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 20 10:01:45 2005 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (dogas at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:01:45 -0400 Subject: Tek 4041 GPIB controller Message-ID: <20050720150145.LLUI24488.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe R." > > only ever found ONE keyboard. I used to have a full set of manuals for the > 4041 including the service manual but I gave all of it to Mike Haas and I > think he's since sold them. I think my buddy in Sanford probably has > manuals for it but I don't know when I'll be over in that area again. First off, if Dennis gets to be 'Dennis K.', then I'd like to become 'Mike H.' in these cases too. Yep, I remember that 4041 well... I didn't get a keyboard or any tapes when I got Joe's machine, but as usual with Joe, there was some nice manualage included. Looked like a very robust BASIC & GPIB environment. You do need a keyboard or pre-programmed tapes to run it. It can auto-execute programs off tape, and a few line program there could redirect the console out a serial port... theorettically. That keyboard connector looked pretty easy to hack in a homebrew keyboard. I think the protocol is just serially coded ASCII codes at slow ttl levels, but I no longer have the docs or machine... Sorrry ;) - Mike: dogas at bellsouth.net From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jul 20 10:07:16 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:07:16 -0500 Subject: BA123/RQDX3 floppy question In-Reply-To: <0IJX003N2CAZQT20@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IJX003N2CAZQT20@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200507201007.16557.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 20 July 2005 06:37, Allison wrote: > >Subject: BA123/RQDX3 floppy question > > From: Brad Parker > >I'll probably ditch the RX50 in favor of a stock PC 5 1/4" drive but > >I'll still have to connect it to the RQDX3 somehow. Your cable from the RX50 should connect directly to the distribution board... Also, you can't use a "stock" PC 5-1/4" floppy drive, you have to either use a DEC drive, or a modified Teac FD-55GFR (aka an RX33, google for "RX33" and "Teac" to find instructions on what jumpers to change). > That distribution board has a connector labeled RX50. The RQDX3 has > a 50 pin cable that goes to that disti board and from there you > should have the usual rats nest of 34pin (floppy), and 40/26pin (hard > disks) from the distibrution board to drives. I think you mean 34/26pin for ST-506 interface hard disks. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 20 10:08:57 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:08:57 -0700 Subject: Tek 4041 GPIB controller Message-ID: > Looking for information re the above 68000 based unit http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/404x/070-3918 -00_4041_sysCtlrOper_Jul82.pdf as always, if folks have other manuals that I could borrow to scan, I'm happy to put the results up on bitsavers. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 10:21:15 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:21:15 -0500 Subject: BA123/RQDX3 floppy question In-Reply-To: <200507201007.16557.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0IJX003N2CAZQT20@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <200507201007.16557.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 7/20/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I think you mean 34/26pin for ST-506 interface hard disks. :) 34/20? -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jul 20 10:48:06 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:48:06 -0400 Subject: BA123/RQDX3 floppy question Message-ID: <0IJX00LEJNVZ94D4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: BA123/RQDX3 floppy question > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:21:15 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 7/20/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> I think you mean 34/26pin for ST-506 interface hard disks. :) > >34/20? Ack, it's been a while since I've had to play with the disks. Thats a problem with VAXen the keep running and cases stay on. Seriously the last time I was in my uVAXII was four years ago to replay the TOY Clock battery. So as a consequence I forget actual number of wires in the MFM disk cables. After all it's only important if a disk dies. Allison From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jul 20 10:55:28 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:55:28 -0500 Subject: BA123/RQDX3 floppy question In-Reply-To: References: <0IJX003N2CAZQT20@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <200507201007.16557.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200507201055.28514.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 20 July 2005 10:21, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/20/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > I think you mean 34/26pin for ST-506 interface hard disks. :) > > 34/20? I was debating that, and forgot to verify what I'd typed before pressing enter. Oh well, I made myself look foolish again. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 20 11:01:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Response from buyer of "Apple-1" on eBay Message-ID: I finally got a response from the buyer of that "Apple-1" on eBay a few weeks back. In a nut shell, he said he suspected it was probably not an Apple-1 but he thought he'd take a chance anyway, and when he received it his "intuition" was confirmed. He thinks he got a good deal anyway because he says it was some sort of homebrew electronic "music box". -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 20 11:18:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 09:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ethan Dicks to speak at VCF Midwest Message-ID: For those of you who've always wanted to meet Ethan, he'll be giving a great talk entitled "Classic Computing at the Bottom of the World" at the VCF Midwest. http://www.vintage.org/2005/midwest/speaker.php -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jul 20 11:26:41 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:26:41 +0100 Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: <1121864617.4050.19.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1121864617.4050.19.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42DE7B41.9050409@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > I'm trying to decide what to do about the whole battery aspect. If the > machine isn't going to be used for long periods of time then it makes > sense not to have any batteries in it in case they leak (or whatever). How long is long? If long > a couple of years or so, then you may have a problem. Gordon. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 20 11:50:51 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:50:51 +0000 Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: <42DE7B41.9050409@gjcp.net> References: <1121864617.4050.19.camel@weka.localdomain> <42DE7B41.9050409@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <1121878251.4340.10.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-20 at 17:26 +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > I'm trying to decide what to do about the whole battery aspect. If the > > machine isn't going to be used for long periods of time then it makes > > sense not to have any batteries in it in case they leak (or whatever). > > How long is long? If long > a couple of years or so, then you may have a > problem. Not quite that bad, but I could see periods of 6 months or so not being uncommon. Hopefully one day there'll be less things to fix / archive / photograph which means more time for actually running stuff and learning how to use it - but for the forseeable future there's a *huge* backlog of work to do! Plus doubtless some machines will be destined as static exhibits (particularly where hard drives have failed and OS media is no longer available), so it makes sense not to keep batteries in those. The fate of this CG-200 will depend on how healthy the hard disk appears to be as without OS media that's the one bit which can't be fixed... cheers Jules From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 20 11:52:00 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:52:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PSU schematic of the PDP-11/05 (11/10) needed In-Reply-To: References: <64330.192.168.1.1.1121446266.squirrel@192.168.1.1> from "Ed" at Jul 15, 5 06:51:06 pm Message-ID: <5516.62.177.191.201.1121878320.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Hello Tony, The fault is repaired, it turned out to be a bad solder joint on one of the resistors. After resoldering, all voltages are fine. Thanks, Ed >> >> Hi All, >> >> I have a PDP-11/05 (11/10) in a 5.25" box version which I'm putting >> together. It's going to be equipped with 8Kb of core and a RX02 >> floppy interface. When powering up, led's come on, but there is not >> much action to get. Look like the -15V of the PSU is not working >> properly. >> >> The PSU is a different one compared to the well known bricks used >> in BA11 boxes. This one delivers +5V, +15V and -15V and is labelled >> 5409728. >> >> Anybody have a schematic of this PSU by any chance? > > I'm suiprised it;'s not on Bitsavers. Have you looked at all the 11/05 > and 11/10 docs there? Maybe also the GT40 printset, the GT40 is built in > the samve box with the same PSU (and for that matter an 11/05 CPU board > set) > > I certainly have this schematic, but no easy way to get it to you. If you > need help sorting out the PSU, feel free to ask me. > > -tony > From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jul 20 11:56:56 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:56:56 -0400 Subject: BA123/RQDX3 floppy question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:37:51 EDT." <0IJX003N2CAZQT20@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200507201656.j6KGuuDu005652@mwave.heeltoe.com> Allison wrote: > >That distribution board has a connector labeled RX50. The RQDX3 has a 50 pin >cable that goes to that disti board and from there you should have the usual >rats nest of 34pin (floppy), and 40/26pin (hard disks) from the distibrution >board to drives. thanks! (I finally found a BA-123 manual also) I have two other questions: - can I pull out the distribution board and pop it into another QBUS, say on an 11/23+? - do I need the front panel 'thing' (the led board) or can I leave it disconnected? -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jul 20 11:58:50 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:58:50 -0400 Subject: BA123/RQDX3 floppy question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:21:15 CDT." Message-ID: <200507201658.j6KGwoEp006179@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 7/20/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> I think you mean 34/26pin for ST-506 interface hard disks. :) > >34/20? yes, that's what I ment, sorry :-) too many headers on too many different projects. -brad From GOOI at oce.nl Wed Jul 20 12:11:19 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:11:19 +0200 Subject: Ethan Dicks to speak at VCF Midwest Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1DA9@gd-mail03.oce.nl> That will be an interesting story to hear. However, I am not going to make a trip from The Netherlands ... will some sort of transcript be available afterwards? greetz, - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: Classic Computers Mailing List Sent: 20-7-2005 18:18 Subject: Ethan Dicks to speak at VCF Midwest For those of you who've always wanted to meet Ethan, he'll be giving a great talk entitled "Classic Computing at the Bottom of the World" at the VCF Midwest. http://www.vintage.org/2005/midwest/speaker.php -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jul 20 12:58:29 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:58:29 -0500 Subject: Ethan Dicks to speak at VCF Midwest In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1DA9@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1DA9@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <200507201258.29526.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 20 July 2005 12:11, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > That will be an interesting story to hear. > However, I am not going to make a trip from The Netherlands ... > will some sort of transcript be available afterwards? > > greetz, > - Henk, PA8PDP. I'll be videotaping the speakers (one of my other hobbies :), and will make that available somehow. Actually, it may be someone besides me, since I'll have plenty of other stuff to do, but I'll make sure someone is there doing it. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to Wed Jul 20 15:09:34 2005 From: akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:09:34 -0400 Subject: tk50's and dlt Message-ID: <0qirz5dytd.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Hi-- I've got a pile of tk50's I'd like to preserve the contents of. Maybe 300 or so. what's the fastest drive for reading them? I have a qbus tk70, and probably a tkz-50 somewhere, but if it could read them faster, I'd be perfectly willing to acquire a tz30 or a dlt. Surplus dlt stackers like a tz887 are pretty cheap these days; could one of those do the job? format wise, many of the tapes are vms sw install kits. is there a way (ie, existing sw and formats) to archive these such that new install tapes could be cut without needing a vms system to do it? --t.i.a. --akb From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jul 20 15:17:47 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: tk50's and dlt In-Reply-To: <0qirz5dytd.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> from "Andrew K. Bressen" at Jul 20, 2005 04:09:34 PM Message-ID: <200507202017.j6KKHlxA015288@onyx.spiritone.com> > I've got a pile of tk50's I'd like to preserve > the contents of. Maybe 300 or so. > > what's the fastest drive for reading them? > > I have a qbus tk70, and probably a tkz-50 somewhere, > but if it could read them faster, I'd be perfectly > willing to acquire a tz30 or a dlt. Surplus dlt stackers > like a tz887 are pretty cheap these days; could one > of those do the job? You'll want to pay close attention to what drive you get if you go with a DLT drive. I think you can use up the the DEC equivalent of a DLT2000 drive, however, it *MUST* be a DEC Drive, the Quantum drives can't read them. > format wise, many of the tapes are vms sw install kits. > > is there a way (ie, existing sw and formats) to archive > these such that new install tapes could be cut without needing > a vms system to do it? I'd recommend taking a look at the tools for SIMH, though personally, I always use TPC format under VMS. It would be nice if there was a version of TPC for Unix, but the closest I'm aware of is a tool to convert TPC files to SIMH TAP files. Zane From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jul 20 16:05:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:05:02 -0400 Subject: FA: Pile of DEC stuff including rack panel Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050720170502.00a2aca0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> More cleaning up. Joe From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Wed Jul 20 16:30:54 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:30:54 +0200 Subject: FA : Various stuff (DEC, HP (9810) stuff etc) Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050720233050.02e161e0@pop.xs4all.nl> Just like Joe, cleaning up :-) http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZsundown79 Stefan ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Wed Jul 20 17:45:37 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:45:37 +1200 Subject: Tek 4041 GPIB controller References: Message-ID: <000501c58d7c$bfa2dd30$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Thanks for the info and suggestions guys- and especially for the pointer to the manual, Al. Bitsavers to the rescue once again! The manual confirmed my thoughts that I need either the special Tek keyboard or a system verification tape to make progress easily. The keyboard connector only has 4 pins- can't be that complicated to hack something in there!? (famous last words- agn!) If theres' any more info or ideas out there -let's be having 'em! Thanks agn. DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date: 19/07/2005 From fernande at internet1.net Wed Jul 20 17:55:50 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:55:50 -0400 Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20050716073725.030bb098@mail.n.ml.org> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20050716073725.030bb098@mail.n.ml.org> Message-ID: <42DED676.2040905@internet1.net> John, After reading this description of the building, I immediately recalled a building that I've seen around here. While helping my sister and her husband move, I saw a very solid looking building, that had Go Away written all over it. I wondered what it had been, or what was in it now. After doing a bit of reasearch, I now find that it was part of a SAGE installion! Wow, something really cool in my very own home town! Here it is then: http://www.radomes.org/museum/photos/FortCusterMISAGEcenter.jpg Here it is now: http://www.radomes.org/museum/recent/FortCusterMI.html As you can see, it looks to be in pretty good shape! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > STORY AS FOLLOWS: > Anti-blast from the past was built to last > > If it goes, the Semi-Automatic Ground Environment building won't go > easily. Its thick, lead-reinforced concrete walls were intended to > withstand the ravages of a nuclear holocaust. Only a direct hit could > have taken it out. > The building was designed in the mid-1950s as part of a network of > identical information-gathering centers built throughout the country > that was supposed to protect the country's nuclear bomber fleet. Its > designers intentionally made it so nondescript that only a handful of > military personnel even knew of its existence or purpose. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 20 18:11:29 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Response from buyer of "Apple-1" on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050720161045.A31060@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 20 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I finally got a response from the buyer of that "Apple-1" on eBay a few > weeks back. In a nut shell, he said he suspected it was probably not an > Apple-1 but he thought he'd take a chance anyway, and when he received it > his "intuition" was confirmed. > He thinks he got a good deal anyway because he says it was some sort of > homebrew electronic "music box". Would he be interested in paying another $2500 for some more homebrew junk? From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Jul 20 18:26:52 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:26:52 -0400 Subject: Apollo stuff References: <200507131606.j6DG6OZA061780@keith.ezwind.net> <20050720101137.0e298978.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <000901c58d82$83611610$0100a8c0@screamer> Actually several other pins are active. The token ring card can tell when no cable is installed, so there are at least 2 cable detect pins. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jochen Kunz" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 4:11 AM Subject: Re: Apollo stuff > On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:57:21 -0500 > "Director" wrote: > >> The Apollo cards I have have a strange connector. It appears to have >> two coax and a half dozen wires in a DB form factor. > It is called a 7W2 connector. > >> I did not get any cables, so I have no idea what connections are >> actually used. > Only the two coax connectors are used. They are simply ring in and out. > You connect ring out of one machine to ring in of the next until you > closed the ring. The cables are 75 ohm RG59. > >> I can't see how you could use a modern TR cable with that since it was >> 4 wire shielded twisted pair. F connectors would imply coax. > TR != ATR. Apollo Token Ring is a thing of its own, not compatible with > the Token Ring that IBM and a few others used. > -- > > > tsch??, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ > > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 20 18:37:40 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:37:40 +0100 Subject: Free: CBM PETs, disk unit, Sinclair QL (Abingdon UK) In-Reply-To: <1120821906.17516.2.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000001c58d84$0630d430$c901a8c0@flexpc> I picked up two CBMs a disk drive and a QL from Chris. I've not sorted the stuff out yet but there'sa goodly amount of manuals for various bits (which I'll no doubt scan) and some cassettes, disks and QL microdrive carts. There's also some homebrew stuff, so I may do as someone just suggested in another thread and contact the "Apple 1" buyer :-) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 08 July 2005 12:25 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Free: CBM PETs, disk unit, Sinclair QL (Abingdon UK) Got this one the other day - we don't need any more PET or QL stuff, and he's given me permission to post here. Contact him directly if interested - he's got a couple of weeks before he moves apparently. cheers Jules -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: Chris Jones Reply-To: member at chilemonster.freeserve.co.uk To: donations at retrobeep.org Subject: Donation offer Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:43:53 +0200 (CEST) Hi Jules, I have two commodore CBM computers from the 80s which still work (an 8032 and 4032 upgraded from and labelled 3008). There is also a 5.25" disk drive (working) plus manuals/books/software etc. Would you be interested in adding them to your collection, or know someone that would? I am moving house and will readily donate them - I dont really want them to end up in land fill! There is also a sinclair QL and memory expansion/manuals etc. Thanks Chris Jones Abingdon From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 20 18:49:28 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:49:28 +0000 Subject: Free: CBM PETs, disk unit, Sinclair QL (Abingdon UK) In-Reply-To: <000001c58d84$0630d430$c901a8c0@flexpc> References: <000001c58d84$0630d430$c901a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <1121903368.4340.73.camel@weka.localdomain> Nice - glad someone managed to save them! cheers Jules On Thu, 2005-07-21 at 00:37 +0100, Antonio Carlini wrote: > I picked up two CBMs a disk drive and a QL from Chris. > > I've not sorted the stuff out yet but there'sa goodly amount of manuals > for various bits (which I'll no doubt scan) and some cassettes, disks > and QL microdrive carts. > > There's also some homebrew stuff, so I may do as someone just suggested > in another thread and contact the "Apple 1" buyer :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: 08 July 2005 12:25 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Free: CBM PETs, disk unit, Sinclair QL (Abingdon UK) > > > Got this one the other day - we don't need any more PET or QL stuff, and > he's given me permission to post here. > > Contact him directly if interested - he's got a couple of weeks before > he moves apparently. > > cheers > > Jules > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > From: Chris Jones > Reply-To: member at chilemonster.freeserve.co.uk > To: donations at retrobeep.org > Subject: Donation offer > Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:43:53 +0200 (CEST) > > > Hi Jules, > > I have two commodore CBM computers from the 80s which still work (an > 8032 and 4032 upgraded from and labelled 3008). There is also a 5.25" > disk drive (working) plus manuals/books/software etc. Would you be > interested in adding them to your collection, or know someone that > would? I am moving house and will readily donate them - I dont really > want them to end up in land fill! > > There is also a sinclair QL and memory expansion/manuals etc. > > Thanks > > Chris Jones > > Abingdon -- "We've had a lot of loonies around this place, but you're the first one who thought the sunrise was made out of stale beer. Now are you going to pick up your flute and leave, or shall I part your hair with this crowbar?" From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jul 20 18:54:51 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:54:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: BA123/RQDX3 floppy question In-Reply-To: Brad Parker "Re: BA123/RQDX3 floppy question" (Jul 20, 12:56) References: <200507201656.j6KGuuDu005652@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <10507210054.ZM2423@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jul 20 2005, 12:56, Brad Parker wrote: > > I have two other questions: > > - can I pull out the distribution board and pop it into another QBUS, say > on an 11/23+? Yes, it needs power and ground (for the terminators and buffers) but has no other connections to the backplane. > - do I need the front panel 'thing' (the led board) or can I leave it > disconnected? You need it. I can't remember if it's the READY line or the WR.PROT that usually ends up in the wrong state otherwise, but one of them needs to be there (the READY line has to be grounded, IIRC). You can kludge it pretty easily. The layout and schematic for the M9058 distribution board are on my web site, along with the schematic for the LEDS-and-switches circuit. http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/RQDX/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 20 18:40:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:40:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Repairing an HP 9810 (was Museums, etc) In-Reply-To: <20050720055202.904C33BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Jul 20, 5 01:52:02 am Message-ID: > > > To help better understand Tony's (Duell) discussion of the 9810 > repair, have a look at > http://www.rheinfeld.de/andreas/9810.htm > where Andreas also describes his repair of an 9810 using Tony's > schmatics (available on the HPCC cdrom). Not just my schematics. As he says on that site, we exchanged quite a few e-mail messages about this. Essentially I talked him through the procedures, but I wanted him to understand what he was doing, so I explained what all the signals meant, what the various microcode addresses were, and so on. I hope he picked up a little bit about the workings of these fine machines. While it's good to help get another classic working again, it's even better IMHO to pass on the techniques as well. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 20 18:49:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:49:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Whitechapel CG-200 In-Reply-To: <1121864617.4050.19.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 20, 5 01:03:37 pm Message-ID: > I'm trying to decide what to do about the whole battery aspect. If the > machine isn't going to be used for long periods of time then it makes > sense not to have any batteries in it in case they leak (or whatever). > But then if it doesn't need batteries during normal running, it seems a > bit of a waste to have them there at all (and need to open up the case > to fit them each time the machine's used) > > I presume they're normally used to keep some form of RAM containing > configuration data alive though (plus maybe some kind of service On the MG1, there are 5 NiCd cells in series with a tap 3 cells from the -ve end. The tap is used to hattery-back the real time clock chip (which probably contains a small amount of RAM to store configuration data, etc), all the cells are used to power the turn-on relay. There is no service processor in an MG1 (unlike, say a Torch XXX). There is an I/O processor, but it's not battery-backed, or anything. > processor operational) as well as providing power to the start up relay > - so I'm not sure what the implications are there of not having them > fitted. Unlike a XXX (again), the MG1 doesn't use the NiCds as a shunt regulator on the real time clock supply. A XXX's clock chip can be damaged if the thing is powered up with the NiCd battery open-circuit. I think you have my XXX schematics, in there I show a mod to use non-rechargeable cells with a zener diode acting as the shunt regulator. > > Maybe an external NiCd pack is the way to go - there are plenty of screw > points at the rear of the case from which a suitable bracket for a > battery box could be attached. Mind you, I'm sort of at the point where > I think any machine which is to be stored for any period of time unused > should have its PSU disconnected just to stop anyone trying to randomly > power it up before doing some basic checks - in which case they'd need > to open the case anyway. Good idea. Of course removing the NiCd cells from a XXX would ensure this, there is no way it'll power up without them. Personally, I'd put the AA cell holders I mentioned onto the power distribution board. It's drilled to take them, or at least the one in my MG1 was. Then you can clip in some normal, non-tagged NiCds if you want to run the machine. -tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jul 20 19:32:24 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:32:24 -0400 Subject: BA123/RQDX3 floppy question Message-ID: <0IJY003E5C5OQWF2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: BA123/RQDX3 floppy question > From: Pete Turnbull > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:54:51 +0100 (BST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Jul 20 2005, 12:56, Brad Parker wrote: >> >> I have two other questions: >> >> - can I pull out the distribution board and pop it into another QBUS, >say >> on an 11/23+? > >Yes, it needs power and ground (for the terminators and buffers) but >has no other connections to the backplane. > >> - do I need the front panel 'thing' (the led board) or can I leave it >> disconnected? > >You need it. I can't remember if it's the READY line or the WR.PROT >that usually ends up in the wrong state otherwise, but one of them >needs to be there (the READY line has to be grounded, IIRC). > >You can kludge it pretty easily. The layout and schematic for the >M9058 distribution board are on my web site, along with the schematic >for the LEDS-and-switches circuit. > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/RQDX/ Yes you do need the frontpannel disk insert. There is both write protect and online functions. The alternate is just hard jumper it for enable on both. Allison From James at jdfogg.com Wed Jul 20 20:50:35 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:50:35 -0400 Subject: IBM Token Ring Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045C12@sbs.jdfogg.com> > -----Original Message----- > Subject: IBM Token Ring > > Originally this topic was about Apollo TR but several > questions have come up about IBM TR. I happen to have spent > several years with different vendors of IBM Token Ring > hardware and IMHO am somewhat of an expert on the topic. I > would be glad to answer any in depth questions but I suspect > that the majority of the list members would be bored. On the > other had there is always the delete key. Either way, let me know. I spent a year working for Proteon. I got a good lesson in all things Token Ring too. I still love it, but I'm not running any at this time. I'm not sure, but I might be the first person to have witnesses TCP/IP routed on TR hardware (at least commercially). My understanding is that Proteon offered that ability before anyone else, and I prototyped the boards and tested them. ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From James at jdfogg.com Wed Jul 20 20:52:56 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:52:56 -0400 Subject: New to list -- Many Issues -- Many Parts Available. Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045C13@sbs.jdfogg.com> > -----Original Message----- > Subject: New to list -- Many Issues -- Many Parts Available. > > Hi List, > > I've been a collector (and user) of obsolete computer systems > for many years. This list looks like a great source of > information. Anyhow... > > Until our basement flooded a couple of weeks ago, I had: You must be heartbroken - I know I would be. Any circuit boards that were soaked can be washed in a dishwasher. I've discussed this here before so I won't bore anyone with the details - but if you need details let me know. ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Jul 21 03:33:38 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:33:38 +0100 Subject: Emulex DM01 information Message-ID: <42DF5DE2.4060705@gjcp.net> Hi there, I need to find out about the ST506 cables for an Emulex DM01 QBUS card. I've just got one with no cables. I understand that it's similar to other Emulex MSCP cards (makes sense really) but it has a 50-pin cable to connect the drives up. Anyone know how to make up a cable for this? Or even, got a spare cable? Gordon. From news at computercollector.com Thu Jul 21 09:53:34 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:53:34 -0400 Subject: Vintage people: Alan Kay laid off at HP Message-ID: <200507211502.j6LF2B6n065263@keith.ezwind.net> http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/12187326.htm ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 770 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From allain at panix.com Thu Jul 21 10:50:16 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:50:16 -0400 Subject: <10 years but On Topic References: <200507211502.j6LF2B6n065263@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <03c001c58e0b$e48a9900$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I just got my first taste of the General Magic DataRover 840 and man is it a fun machine! Here's an intro although I believe that several designers may be on list to tell you more. It's sort of like the first hard drive Mac simplified by half and made pocket sized. More Newton sized than Palm. The screen is really high resolution for a pocket machine, much better than Palm. The O/S and apps have all the cleverness you might expect from Apple, but a little more streamlined for quick use. There's the pictoral desktop, a hallway with file cabinets, etc. great graphics all around. Surprising this isn't used on all Cellphones at this point, I believe it was attempted for some. Hardware includes A Phone port for Voice, Fax, and Internet connectivity. PCMCIA*2 ports. A form of IRDa, and a small port that may be a form of SCSI since there is a driver for that. They're practically giving them away right now, even on eBay so hence the mention. This situation will definitely not be the same in 5 years. I think it deserves inclusion here even though at 7 years (1998) it's out of band formally, but due to to the severe Crash and burn of both the product, which couldn't fight both CE and Palm, and of the company (Internet bubbled?) it's becoming _ancient_ history real fast. The sudden death of everything makes it difficult to find outside information, accesories and so on Today, but what you get is a great machine Not SPAM, just happy with the find. John A. Keywords: DataRover 840, Magic Cap O/S, General Magic Inc. From staylor at smedley.mrynet.com Tue Jul 19 17:04:13 2005 From: staylor at smedley.mrynet.com (Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:04:13 -0500 Subject: Morrow MD-11 distro diskettes needed Message-ID: <200507192204.j6JM4Dkw021475@smedley.mrynet.com> I've just discovered that my MD-11 system won't boot due to some kind of corruption, and I don't have boot diskettes or the distro. CP/M V3.0 Loader Copyright (C) 1982, Digital Research CPMLDR error: failed to read CPM3.SYS I had just completed a backup (or so I thought) using fullback, but when powered down and started up again today the above message is the result. Does anyone have the distribution diskettes for the MD-11 that I could arrange to get copies of or teledisk images of? Or possibly even just a boot diskette/image for the MD-11? Tried my MD3 and MD2 diskettes already, but as expected they don't boot the MD-11. I'd love to chat with others who have MD-11's as well. :) Please CC me directly, as I don't subscribe--only read the list via the web. Regards, -scott From Pat_Fitzpatrick at pmc-sierra.com Tue Jul 19 18:30:35 2005 From: Pat_Fitzpatrick at pmc-sierra.com (Pat Fitzpatrick) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 16:30:35 -0700 Subject: New to list -- Many Issues -- Many Parts Available. Message-ID: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8960B3F66@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> Hi List, I've been a collector (and user) of obsolete computer systems for many years. This list looks like a great source of information. Anyhow... Until our basement flooded a couple of weeks ago, I had: IMSAI 8080 with NorthStar Disk, KSR33 Teletype and Lear-Siegler ADM3A Terminal A very strange home-built S-100 system Apple II plus with Pascal Language System Intel intellec 800 and MDS230 development systems Sun 3/160 Solaris (some version or other) HP64000 development systems with HP7912 disk HP9816 computer IBM PC and XT, 286, 386... (yeah, who cares) One thing I have learned form this experience is that computers do not, in general, swim well. Anyhow, I now have a whole lot of partially useful computers, boards, documentation, software etc. The only things I care deeply about are the IMSAI ('cause I've raised him from a pup) and the HP64000s (which I use as my logic analyzer and EPROM programmer -- among other things). The IMSAI box and the terminal are ok, but the disk drive (an SA400, I believe) and (worse) the box of floppies didn't make it. The drive might be salvageable, but I'm afraid the diskettes are toast. Does anyone out there have any 5-1/4 inch 10 sector (hard sectored) floppies? And a copy of the NorthStar DOS and BASIC that they'd like to sell/trade/etc? As for the HP64000s, the consoles are ok, but the disk drive drowned. From a quick search, I'm not real optimistic about finding another HPIB disk drive and I'm not too excited about plunging into this one to try and fix him (he was running when the waters came and he smells very bad). Has anyone ever taught a PC (for example) with a GPIB card to think it's a CS80 Drive?? Does anyone have a spare disk gathering dust? Failing that, does anyone (besides me) still use these things? The consoles are probably too heavy to ship, but I have lots of cards, software, manuals etc in working order if anyone needs them. As to the other stuff, some is good, some isn't but if anyone needs any parts, I might be able to help out. Pat Fitzpatrick From pmgroup at telus.net Tue Jul 19 19:57:00 2005 From: pmgroup at telus.net (Perspective Management Group) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 18:57:00 -0600 Subject: Grid 1520 Message-ID: <000601c58cc5$f00a9b00$a8b959d1@ab.hsia.telus.net> Hi Guys Just aquired a gridcase 1520, how do I remove the battery, and where might I find a battery? Frank D. Senior Projects Coordinator Perspective Management Group 33 Hazelton Avenue, Suite 110 Toronto, Ontario M5R 2E3 Tel: 416.208.0755 pmgroup at telus.net CONFIDENTIATILITY CONCERN: This message is intended only for use of the individual or entity to which it has been addressed and may contain information that is priveleged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distrubution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If this communication has been received in error, respond immediately by returning e-mail, and delete all copies of this material. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 00:33:22 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for a, or info on, Princeton scan doubler Message-ID: <20050720053322.9194.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> allowed the use of a 400 line monitor with a cga card (200 lines). If you have info on this type of device, an original schematic, or possible newer circuit/suggestion, please let me know. ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Wed Jul 20 00:34:14 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:34:14 -0500 Subject: IBM Token Ring In-Reply-To: <001101c58cc7$1421b0e0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <200507200543.j6K5hG0Y048643@keith.ezwind.net> Originally this topic was about Apollo TR but several questions have come up about IBM TR. I happen to have spent several years with different vendors of IBM Token Ring hardware and IMHO am somewhat of an expert on the topic. I would be glad to answer any in depth questions but I suspect that the majority of the list members would be bored. On the other had there is always the delete key. Either way, let me know. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Wed Jul 20 00:47:38 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:47:38 -0500 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507200556.j6K5udIe048718@keith.ezwind.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 2:43 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Mystery box > > > > > The connector is a DB-37, used mostly for RS-499, but this does not > > look like that kind of device. The other common use for > this connector > > is in Analog/Digital control devices. I agree with the > comment that it > > looks like > > I don't think you can deduce anything from the choice of > connector. Of course not. But this was a one-off box so I thought it reasonable to conjecture based on the common uses of this connector. > I've used a DC37 (note, AFAIK the DB37 does not exist, http://www.pccables.com/00830.htm http://www.mycableshop.com/3rd_Level/Switchbox-DB37.htm > although the DB44 does) conenctor for all sorts of > things, not related to RS449 http://www.mycableshop.com/sku/CAB-SS-449MT.htm > or ADCs http://www.labmaster.com/products/mcdas/html/mcdas_index.html > . IBM used it for the > external floppy drive connector on the PC, for example. > > AFter all, not all DB25s are RS232 ports :-) However, more DB25s were RS232 ports before IBM used a DB25 for a parallel port and before they later changed serial ports to a DB9 connector. Moreover, the DB25 connector is technically not a part of the RS-232 spec. It is an de facto "standard." Gil > > -tony > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 20 05:50:38 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Macintosh Plus - free... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050720105038.15260.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, is it still available? Where are you? Thanks. --- plato computer wrote: > If someone wants a Macintosh Plus - (operational > condition unknown), > simply let me know, and I'll package it up and send > it to you. There's > an external disk drive by a company called MCS, but > that is unknown as > well. Just simply all I ask is that you reimburse > me for shipping. > > Aaron > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rimmer at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 20 16:30:38 2005 From: rimmer at xs4all.nl (Stefan) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:30:38 +0200 Subject: FA : Various stuff (DEC, HP (9810) stuff etc) Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050720232837.02e4b160@pop.xs4all.nl> Just like Joe, cleaning up :-) http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZsundown79 Stefan From korpela at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 19:48:37 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:48:37 -0700 Subject: Grid 1520 In-Reply-To: <000601c58cc5$f00a9b00$a8b959d1@ab.hsia.telus.net> References: <000601c58cc5$f00a9b00$a8b959d1@ab.hsia.telus.net> Message-ID: On 7/19/05, Perspective Management Group wrote: > Hi Guys > Just aquired a gridcase 1520, how do I remove the battery, and where might I find a > battery? Can't tell you how to remove the battery, since I don't have a 1520. As far as replacement, if you can't find it on E-bay, you'll need to build a pack. I've found that for gridpads at least, your best bet is to crack open the dead pack and replace the cells with NiMH's of the same size (but, of course, greater capacity). Ten 2/3AA NiMH batteries will set you back a whole $20. The CMOS battery is tougher, since, IIRC, it's a 3.6V stack of NiCd coins, which I've never even seen available separately. A 3.5V lithium battery would probably do the job, but would cost $20 by itself. Or you could build a stack of three 1.5V coins and risk over-voltage. From bv at norbionics.com Wed Jul 20 21:57:48 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:57:48 -0400 Subject: Goodnight, OS/2... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 15 Jul, 2005, at 11:47, Cini, Richard wrote: > > > OK, the inevitable Slashdot-type question...when will IBM open license > OS/2 > (if at all)? There have been calls for this for years before IBM > finally > nailed the coffin shut. There is absolutely no possibility that IBM wil open-source OS/2. Microsoft has joint ownership to part of the code. It would be nice if we could get Workplace Shell upgraded and made available for Linux, I believe IBM have all the rights to that. In the meantime, I am happily running eComStation, which is the current SOHO-distro of OS/2. That is, however, not going to be on-topic for a long time, since it is still marketed and maintained. And as long as several major banks and at least one major credit card company continue to rely on OS/2, IBM will continue to maintain it on a paid basis. Expensive, but probably worth the money when you are in that line of business. -- -bv From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Jul 21 02:34:42 2005 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:34:42 +0100 Subject: Apple? Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050721082717.04f153c8@albert> Now I'm not an expert on these, indeed I know nothing at all about apples, but these look pretty weird to me - are they actually what they say they are, and really common? eBay item 5219329581 (expensive as usual, so no bids) for three linotype boxes, one of which has a disc drive with an apple logo on it. (Listing has some larger pics linked from it). From cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co Thu Jul 21 10:44:23 2005 From: cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:44:23 -0400 Subject: Needed: 12MB or 8MB RAM module for Vaxstation 2000 References: <200507211502.j6LF2B6n065263@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42DFC2D7.43710BE7@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> I have only 6MB in my vaxstation 2000 and could certainly use more; does anybody have a 12MB module (MS400-CA) or 8MB module (MS400-BA) that you could bear to part with? I can't use the 3rd party 16MB module because I have patched DEC PROMS that allow me to boot from a scsi drive. carlos. -- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia, and Cornell University, Ithaca, NY ---- From MauriceS at MyRealBox.com Thu Jul 21 10:52:10 2005 From: MauriceS at MyRealBox.com (Maurice Smulders) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:52:10 -0600 Subject: New to list -- Many Issues -- Many Parts Available. In-Reply-To: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8960B3F66@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> References: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8960B3F66@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> Message-ID: <42DFC4AA.3080904@MyRealBox.com> Pat Fitzpatrick wrote: >As for the HP64000s, the consoles are ok, but the disk drive drowned. From a quick search, I'm not real optimistic about finding another HPIB disk drive and I'm not too excited about plunging into this one to try and fix him (he was running when the waters came and he smells very bad). Has anyone ever taught a PC (for example) with a GPIB card to think it's a CS80 Drive?? Does anyone have a spare disk gathering dust? Failing that, does anyone (besides me) still use these things? The consoles are probably too heavy to ship, but I have lots of cards, software, manuals etc in working order if anyone needs them. > > I started a project on Sourceforge (softcs80) to do that. I found the specs on bitsavers (Thanks Al) and they don't look to terribly bad... If only a PCI GPIB card would be a bit cheaper... Kind regards, Maurice From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jul 21 11:15:53 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:15:53 -0700 Subject: IBM Token Ring In-Reply-To: <200507200543.j6K5hG0Y048643@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507200543.j6K5hG0Y048643@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200507210915.53791.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 19 July 2005 22:34, Director wrote: > Originally this topic was about Apollo TR but several questions have come > up about IBM TR. I happen to have spent several years with different > vendors of IBM Token Ring hardware and IMHO am somewhat of an expert on the > topic. I would be glad to answer any in depth questions but I suspect that > the majority of the list members would be bored. On the other had there is > always the delete key. Either way, let me know. I can help as well. My company was an IBM Business Partner in the 80's we installed literally thousands of workstations on Token Ring networks all up and down the East Coast - from Boston to Florida - including wide area network<->Token Ring. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jul 21 11:26:14 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:26:14 -0400 Subject: Vintage people: Alan Kay laid off at HP In-Reply-To: <200507211502.j6LF2B6n065263@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507211502.j6LF2B6n065263@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42DFCCA6.2010801@atarimuseum.com> HP probably outsourced his job over to India too Curt 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/12187326.htm > > >----------------------------------------- >Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net >Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ >Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm > >*** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter >- 770 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! >- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all >- W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/54 - Release Date: 7/21/2005 From news at computercollector.com Thu Jul 21 11:31:26 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:31:26 -0400 Subject: <10 years but On Topic In-Reply-To: <03c001c58e0b$e48a9900$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200507211639.j6LGddXw067561@keith.ezwind.net> Sony / General Magic definitely produced some interesting products. In fact, not only did the operating system spawn from an Apple R&D project (as is widely known), the hardware itself also did (as is not widely known!)... there were a couple of handheld computing projects happening simultaneously to the Newton research in the early 1990s; the most relevant to the DataRover were a project called Pocket Mac, aka "Swatch", and a pen-based Mac portable dubbed "Rolex". Here's what I wrote about it a few months ago, for those who haven't seen my research: ...Paul Mercer devised Swatch, also known as Pocket Mac, in late 1990. He'd been working on the Macintosh operating system, became aware of Junior's technical problems, and was encouraged by colleagues on that team to pursue "something small", as explained in the book Apple: The Inside Story by Jim Carlton. I asked Mercer to elaborate further. He explained that he was aware of the pros and cons of existing products from Casio and Sharp, and was especially influenced by the Sony PalmTop. He took one apart and realized it contained a Motorola 68000 processor, which was proof that a Macintosh-like device could be built small enough and run on battery power. To start, Mercer worked on a pen version of the Apple PowerBook, dubbed Rolex - a high-end product vs. Swatch - but his excitement was for the latter project. He slyly code-named its software Karoshi, the Japanese word approximately meaning "death from overwork". Ultimately, and with knowledge gained from Smartifacts, the Swatch prototype was a typical PDA size at 4.25 inches wide x 6.5 inches tall x 1 inch thick, and as with later products like those from Palm, Mercer's team designed it as a peripheral to a desktop computer (Macintosh of course). He estimated that it would take $200 to build one, selling for $400. His team produced 10 hand-made units in various colors, initially based on the PowerBook design (but six months before the PowerBook launched) of dark gray plastic with a colored Apple logo in the center. A similar design was used for the early Newton models. Swatch's software was a late version of Mac System 6 and Mercer modified a version of the Mac Classic ROM, all attached to a dissected Sony PalmTop chassis and motherboard. It ran most of the traditional Macintosh software, such as Finder and MacPaint, along with a custom note-taking application compatible with Claris Write documents. Full handwriting recognition wasn't completed, but methods such as scrubbing to erase text, a gesture for opening the system panel, and way to make traditional mouse double-clicks work with a stylus were all successfully developed. Those are noteworthy accomplishments since they had to work with a pre-existing operating system that was never intended for pen input, unlike the Newton's software. (Apple CEO John Sculley and others were impressed with the product, but killed it anyway because they already were working with Sharp, a main Sony rival, on the Newton. Mercer was then transferred to the Newton team, and brought along Swatch's puff-cloud animation that appears when text is erased, along with graphics for the help system. Frustrated, he left Apple in 1994. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Allain Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:50 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: <10 years but On Topic I just got my first taste of the General Magic DataRover 840 and man is it a fun machine! Here's an intro although I believe that several designers may be on list to tell you more. It's sort of like the first hard drive Mac simplified by half and made pocket sized. More Newton sized than Palm. The screen is really high resolution for a pocket machine, much better than Palm. The O/S and apps have all the cleverness you might expect from Apple, but a little more streamlined for quick use. There's the pictoral desktop, a hallway with file cabinets, etc. great graphics all around. Surprising this isn't used on all Cellphones at this point, I believe it was attempted for some. Hardware includes A Phone port for Voice, Fax, and Internet connectivity. PCMCIA*2 ports. A form of IRDa, and a small port that may be a form of SCSI since there is a driver for that. They're practically giving them away right now, even on eBay so hence the mention. This situation will definitely not be the same in 5 years. I think it deserves inclusion here even though at 7 years (1998) it's out of band formally, but due to to the severe Crash and burn of both the product, which couldn't fight both CE and Palm, and of the company (Internet bubbled?) it's becoming _ancient_ history real fast. The sudden death of everything makes it difficult to find outside information, accesories and so on Today, but what you get is a great machine Not SPAM, just happy with the find. John A. Keywords: DataRover 840, Magic Cap O/S, General Magic Inc. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 21 11:59:29 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New to list -- Many Issues -- Many Parts Available. Message-ID: <200507211659.JAA03933@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Pat Fitzpatrick" > >Hi List, > >I've been a collector (and user) of obsolete computer systems for many years. This list looks like a great source of information. Anyhow... > >Until our basement flooded a couple of weeks ago, I had: > >IMSAI 8080 with NorthStar Disk, KSR33 Teletype and Lear-Siegler ADM3A Terminal >A very strange home-built S-100 system >Apple II plus with Pascal Language System >Intel intellec 800 and MDS230 development systems >Sun 3/160 Solaris (some version or other) >HP64000 development systems with HP7912 disk >HP9816 computer >IBM PC and XT, 286, 386... (yeah, who cares) > >One thing I have learned form this experience is that computers do not, in general, swim well. Anyhow, I now have a whole lot of partially useful computers, boards, documentation, software etc. > >The only things I care deeply about are the IMSAI ('cause I've raised him from a pup) and the HP64000s (which I use as my logic analyzer and EPROM programmer -- among other things). > >The IMSAI box and the terminal are ok, but the disk drive (an SA400, I believe) and (worse) the box of floppies didn't make it. The drive might be salvageable, but I'm afraid the diskettes are toast. Does anyone out there have any 5-1/4 inch 10 sector (hard sectored) floppies? And a copy of the NorthStar DOS and BASIC that they'd like to sell/trade/etc? Hi Pat I think that the floppies will make it if you remove them from the envelopes and rinse them off. I don't think there are any problems with being in water, otherwise. Most everything else should be cleaned up except switches and bearings. Mostly just washing the stuff with clean water and drying well. > >As for the HP64000s, the consoles are ok, but the disk drive drowned. From a quick search, I'm not real optimistic about finding another HPIB disk drive and I'm not too excited about plunging into this one to try and fix him (he was running when the waters came and he smells very bad). This is not good. Anything that was powered up when inundated is most likely in poor shape. Dwight Has anyone ever taught a PC (for example) with a GPIB card to think it's a CS80 Drive?? Does anyone have a spare disk gathering dust? Failing that, does anyone (besides me) still use these things? The consoles are probably too heavy to ship, but I have lots of cards, software, manuals etc in working order if anyone needs them. > >As to the other stuff, some is good, some isn't but if anyone needs any parts, I might be able to help out. > >Pat Fitzpatrick > From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 21 12:27:57 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: <10 years but On Topic In-Reply-To: <03c001c58e0b$e48a9900$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from John Allain at "Jul 21, 5 11:50:16 am" Message-ID: <200507211727.KAA13320@floodgap.com> > I just got my first taste of the General Magic DataRover 840 > and man is it a fun machine! I just bought one off eBay. Wow, the serial cable cost more than the device ;) I wonder if one can do Ethernet using a PCMCIA connection. I've got EtherLink3 cards coming out of the woodwork around here. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Math according to Pentium: 2 / 2 = 1.037587439439485486372112039523781385 ... From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 12:28:39 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New to list -- Many Issues -- Many Parts Available. In-Reply-To: <42DFC4AA.3080904@MyRealBox.com> Message-ID: <20050721172839.27536.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > I started a project on Sourceforge (softcs80) to do > that. I found the > specs on bitsavers (Thanks Al) and they don't look > to terribly bad... If > only a PCI GPIB card would be a bit cheaper... > > Kind regards, > > Maurice > > I am working on the same issue. P'raps we should talk. Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 21 12:41:09 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Morrow MD-11 distro diskettes needed Message-ID: <200507211741.KAA03940@clulw009.amd.com> Hi It is likely that your backup software changed the updated bit on this file. Most loaders are too simple minded and are not able to handle simple changes like this in the file status fields. If you can find another machine with the ability to edit the disk, you can most likely modify this in the directory by editing this bit. And, why don't you subscribe? Dwight >From: staylor at smedley.mrynet.com > >I've just discovered that my MD-11 system won't boot due to some kind of >corruption, and I don't have boot diskettes or the distro. > >CP/M V3.0 Loader >Copyright (C) 1982, Digital Research > >CPMLDR error: failed to read CPM3.SYS > > >I had just completed a backup (or so I thought) using fullback, but when >powered down and started up again today the above message is the result. > >Does anyone have the distribution diskettes for the MD-11 that I could arrange >to get copies of or teledisk images of? Or possibly even just a boot >diskette/image for the MD-11? Tried my MD3 and MD2 diskettes already, but >as expected they don't boot the MD-11. > >I'd love to chat with others who have MD-11's as well. :) > >Please CC me directly, as I don't subscribe--only read the list via the web. > >Regards, >-scott > From cb at mythtech.net Thu Jul 21 12:43:00 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:43:00 -0400 Subject: Apple? Message-ID: >Now I'm not an expert on these, indeed I know nothing at all about apples, >but these look pretty weird to me - are they actually what they say they >are, and really common? eBay item 5219329581 (expensive as usual, so no >bids) for three linotype boxes, one of which has a disc drive with an apple >logo on it. (Listing has some larger pics linked from it). I don't think they are Apple's. Linotype made printing presses didn't they (still do?). Could these be interfaces for said printing presses. Early DTP type stuff. Maybe one was specifically retrofitted with an Apple Disk II drive for loading Apple files onto the press system. -chris From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Jul 21 12:44:04 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:44:04 -0400 Subject: New to list -- Many Issues -- Many Parts Available. In-Reply-To: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8960B3F66@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> Message-ID: Pat Fitzpatrick Wrote: > > IMSAI 8080 with NorthStar Disk, KSR33 Teletype and Lear-Siegler > ADM3A Terminal > The IMSAI box and the terminal are ok, but the disk drive (an > SA400, I believe) and (worse) the box of floppies didn't make it. > The drive might be salvageable, but I'm afraid the diskettes are > toast. Does anyone out there have any 5-1/4 inch 10 sector (hard > sectored) floppies? And a copy of the NorthStar DOS and BASIC > that they'd like to sell/trade/etc? Check out Dave Dunfield's site: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/img/index.htm If you have a monitor in ROM or can toggle a short one into memory, then you can reproduce disks from his web site. It works pretty well, I've just done it myself to get N* DOS and Lifeboat CP/M for my N*. As for a drive, I think any good 360K floppy drive will work. The one's (with N* badges) in my N* are Tandons just like in the IBM PC. Bill From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 21 12:38:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050721082717.04f153c8@albert> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Rob wrote: > Now I'm not an expert on these, indeed I know nothing at all about apples, > but these look pretty weird to me - are they actually what they say they > are, and really common? eBay item 5219329581 (expensive as usual, so no > bids) for three linotype boxes, one of which has a disc drive with an apple > logo on it. (Listing has some larger pics linked from it). If they are Apple ]['s then they are definitely custom jobs or clones. It could also be that someone simply raided Disk ][ drives for spare parts to keep these systems running. But, being that Apple used custom analog boards, the former is more likely. In that case, I'd really like to see the insides of these. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 21 12:41:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, chris wrote: > I don't think they are Apple's. Linotype made printing presses didn't > they (still do?). Could these be interfaces for said printing presses. > Early DTP type stuff. Maybe one was specifically retrofitted with an > Apple Disk II drive for loading Apple files onto the press system. You'd still need the magic of the Disk ][ controller to read Apple ][ disks. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jul 21 12:31:38 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:31:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <200507200556.j6K5udIe048718@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507200556.j6K5udIe048718@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200507211751.NAA25265@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I've used a DC37 (note, AFAIK the DB37 does not exist, > http://www.pccables.com/00830.htm > http://www.mycableshop.com/3rd_Level/Switchbox-DB37.htm The former is, and the latter almost certainly is, a DC37 mislabeled as a DB37. There is a tendency - which I must admit I participated in for some time, until I learned better - to call any D-shell connector a DB. This is wrong. The DB size is the one usually used for 25-pin. The sizes and their canonical pin counts are DA 15-pin, such as used for AUI Ethernet or peecee joystick/MIDI DB 25-pin, such as used for RS-232C serial ports and peecee parallel ports DC 37-pin, such as in http://www.pccable.com/images/00830.jpg or the box which started this thread DD 50-pin, such as used by old Sun-3s for SCSI DE 9-pin, such as used by peecee serial ports, and sometimes video This is why you may find the 15-pin VGA connector called a DE15, because it is (it's a DE shell with 15 pins) - and the "DB37" that pccables.com is selling is actually a mislabeled DC37. (I feel sure the one from mycableshop.com is too, but I didn't see any obvious pictures there.) Like Tony, I've never seen a real DB37 and am inclined to doubt such a beast exists. Other sizes do exist, but they are rather nonstandard; for example, (some?) NeXT grayscale machines' monitor connector was a D-shell connector with, if I recall, 19 pins - somewhere between DA and DB size. (You could make a mechanically compatible connector by removing pins from a DB25M or by cutting away part of one end of a DB25F, though I don't know of anyone who's actually done either.) I suppose you could call it a DA.KKKKKKK... connector, but that would be excessively geeky :) and doesn't account for the way DE is actually *smaller* than DD. (I assume DE was an afterthought.) >> although the DB44 does) !! Interesting. Where'd you see that, Tony? > Moreover, the DB25 connector is technically not a part of the RS-232 > spec. It was back when I got a copy of RS-232C by interlibrary loan, some ten or fifteen years ago. Unless you're drawing a distinction between RS-232 and RS-232C which is lost on me. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jul 21 13:01:07 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:01:07 -0400 Subject: Apple? References: Message-ID: <17119.58083.197271.133880@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "chris" == chris writes: >> Now I'm not an expert on these, indeed I know nothing at all about >> apples, but these look pretty weird to me - are they actually what >> they say they are, and really common? eBay item 5219329581 >> (expensive as usual, so no bids) for three linotype boxes, one of >> which has a disc drive with an apple logo on it. (Listing has >> some larger pics linked from it). chris> I don't think they are Apple's. Linotype made printing presses chris> didn't they (still do?). Could these be interfaces for said chris> printing presses. Early DTP type stuff. No, Linotype did not make printing presses. They made (make?) typesetting machines. Originally the "hot metal" machines from which the company got its name. Later, they made various electronic typesetting machines, fed from paper tape, larger computers (like PDP-11/70s), or possibly from PC class computers. It does look a bit like a DTP type setup (text entry system for a standalone electronic typesetter). At least that's what the captions on the middle photo suggest. Those boxes also look pretty seriously stripped. paul From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Thu Jul 21 13:08:52 2005 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:08:52 -0700 Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050721082717.04f153c8@albert> Message-ID: <1h01qvi.1olmmco61yqycM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> Rob wrote: > Now I'm not an expert on these, indeed I know nothing at all about apples, > but these look pretty weird to me - are they actually what they say they > are, and really common? eBay item 5219329581 (expensive as usual, so no > bids) for three linotype boxes, one of which has a disc drive with an apple > logo on it. (Listing has some larger pics linked from it). It looks like a rack mounted Apple ][ assembled by Linotype-Paul (now called Linotype-Hell). They made typesetting equipment. This certiantly looks like the front end of an electronic typesetter. -- tim lindner tlindner at ix.netcom.com Bright From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Jul 21 13:21:18 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:21:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: <1h01qvi.1olmmco61yqycM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050721082717.04f153c8@albert> <1h01qvi.1olmmco61yqycM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <1289.82.152.112.73.1121970078.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > It looks like a rack mounted Apple ][ assembled by Linotype-Paul (now > called Linotype-Hell). They made typesetting equipment. > > This certiantly looks like the front end of an electronic typesetter. The seller's got some lovely feedback; he's either an idle crook or his buyers are idiots, particularly the ones that say 'no response from emails' when the auction clearly says to ring, or the ones that say 'still not received item' when his terms are 'pick up only' -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 13:27:46 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:27:46 -0700 Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: <17119.58083.197271.133880@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <17119.58083.197271.133880@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Lynotype made lead casting typesetting equipment. These cabinets look like the earliest Lyno cabinets that became optical typesetters. My bet is it is an early commercial system they marketed to semi automate a Lynotype lead line casting machine. Maybe was based on an apple computer and serial control to run the analog typesetter. I think at one time Lynotype tried driving the keys with solenoids run by a computer. Lynotype never made printing presses, mostly typesetting equipment. Paxton From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jul 21 12:50:46 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:50:46 +0200 Subject: Apollo stuff In-Reply-To: <000901c58d82$83611610$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <200507131606.j6DG6OZA061780@keith.ezwind.net> <20050720101137.0e298978.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <000901c58d82$83611610$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <20050721195046.045dd025.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:26:52 -0400 "Bob Shannon" wrote: > Actually several other pins are active. The token ring card can tell > when no cable is installed, so there are at least 2 cable detect pins. Most likely it determines this by measuring the impedance of the two coax connections. But I may be wrong here. At least I know from some DECstation and VAXstation framebuffers that they report an error at Power On Self Test when no monitor is connected. As these framebuffers use 3W3 they have no extra pins for cable detection. They measure somehow DC impedance, AC waveform or the like to detect an open wire. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jul 21 13:45:05 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:45:05 -0400 Subject: Apple? References: <17119.58083.197271.133880@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17119.60721.756000.335292@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Paxton" == Paxton Hoag writes: Paxton> Lynotype made lead casting typesetting equipment. It's spelled "Linotype", though. Paxton> My bet is it is an early commercial system they marketed to Paxton> semi automate a Lynotype lead line casting machine. Maybe was Paxton> based on an apple computer and serial control to run the Paxton> analog typesetter. Paxton> I think at one time Lynotype tried driving the keys with Paxton> solenoids run by a computer. They certainly had linecasting machines driven from paper tape. I don't know if those used solenoids on a keyboard; it could be, or it could be solenoids actuating the guts behind the keyboard. In any case, Linotype had moved into phototypesetting machines by the time Apple appeared on the scene. So while it's possible in theory, I very much doubt a desktop computer type device would drive a linecaster -- far more likely that it would drive a phototypesetter. In the late 1970s, Linotype made a very well regarded range of computer-controlled phototypesetters named "Linotron". They were compact and inexpensive, and produced reasonably good output. (Not as good as the competition, companies like Autologic -- but they were quite a lot smaller and less costly.) paul From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jul 21 13:45:24 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:45:24 +0200 Subject: IBM Token Ring In-Reply-To: <200507200543.j6K5hG0Y048643@keith.ezwind.net> References: <001101c58cc7$1421b0e0$0100a8c0@screamer> <200507200543.j6K5hG0Y048643@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050721204524.18168a05.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:34:14 -0500 "Director" wrote: > I happen to have spent several years with different vendors of > IBM Token Ring hardware and IMHO am somewhat of an expert on the topic. This sounds like a perfect subject for: http://www.classiccmp.org/kb/ -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jul 21 13:49:22 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:49:22 -0500 Subject: Sage II computer Message-ID: <42DFEE32.9010106@pacbell.net> So yesterday (or was it the day before) I won the following Sage II computer on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5218919241 The seller wanted $35 for shipping, but being local, I knew I'd have an advantage since I can just pick it up. I never used one, but I recall them as being pretty sexy for the time. The machine comes with no documentation. Fortunately, even though the auction didn't mention disks, the the two floppy drives have whatever is necessary to boot into UCSD p-system pascal. I've written a fair amount of Pascal, including my own Modula subset compiler, but it wasn't using the P-system. I've found some online references and I've ordered a couple books on it. Once I figure out how to, I'll make copies of my two very dusty and grimy, but working, boot disks. If anybody else on this list needs the same, I'd be happy to make a copy for you too. Just let me know. EBay searches have not turned up any manuals for this machine. Other O/Ss other than the p-System were used by this machine, eg, CP/M 68K. If anybody has docs, software, or pointers to same, I'd appreciate references to it. All in all, a good $22 ebay purchase. Thanks. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jul 21 13:49:40 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:49:40 -0400 Subject: Apollo stuff References: <200507131606.j6DG6OZA061780@keith.ezwind.net> <20050720101137.0e298978.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <000901c58d82$83611610$0100a8c0@screamer> <20050721195046.045dd025.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <17119.60996.843000.851439@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jochen" == Jochen Kunz writes: Jochen> On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:26:52 -0400 "Bob Shannon" Jochen> wrote: >> Actually several other pins are active. The token ring card can >> tell when no cable is installed, so there are at least 2 cable >> detect pins. Jochen> Most likely it determines this by measuring the impedance of Jochen> the two coax connections. But I may be wrong here. Jochen> At least I know from some DECstation and VAXstation Jochen> framebuffers that they report an error at Power On Self Test Jochen> when no monitor is connected. As these framebuffers use 3W3 Jochen> they have no extra pins for cable detection. They measure Jochen> somehow DC impedance, AC waveform or the like to detect an Jochen> open wire. -- Either would work. DC impedance is easy -- for a classic transmission line configuration terminated in the characteristic impedance at both ends, you'd see a DC impedance of R/2 (37.5 ohms in this case) if it's hooked up, but R (75 ohms) if there is no connection. A peak voltage sensor would work too -- peak voltage when correctly terminated is the line driver output peak voltage, but with an open circuit it's double that. paul From tomj at wps.com Thu Jul 21 13:55:24 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage people: Alan Kay laid off at HP In-Reply-To: <200507211502.j6LF2B6n065263@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507211502.j6LF2B6n065263@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050721115445.V1508@fiche.wps.com> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Subject: Vintage people: Alan Kay laid off at HP > > http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/12187326.htm HP to world: "Stop or I'll shoot!" with gun pointed at own head. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Jul 21 14:28:04 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:28:04 -0400 Subject: Sage II computer In-Reply-To: <42DFEE32.9010106@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > So yesterday (or was it the day before) I won the following Sage > II computer on ebay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5218919241 Sweet! I thought I had done well picking up those two Micro Complex Sol upgrade boards, but you got a real bargain there. Bill From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Jul 21 15:04:14 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:04:14 -0400 Subject: Emulex DM01 information In-Reply-To: <42DF5DE2.4060705@gjcp.net> References: <42DF5DE2.4060705@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <42DFFFBE.9040808@compsys.to> >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Hi there, > I need to find out about the ST506 cables for an Emulex DM01 QBUS > card. I've just got one with no cables. I understand that it's > similar to other Emulex MSCP cards (makes sense really) but it has a > 50-pin cable to connect the drives up. Anyone know how to make up a > cable for this? Or even, got a spare cable? Jerome Fine replies: Making up the cable is actually rather easy in this case. But my cable is buried somewhere at the moment. Basically, 34 lines are used for the 34 pin edge connector (daisy chained if there are 2 drives) and the remaining 16 lines are split into 2 groups of 8 lines, one for each of the two 20 pin edge connectors, i.e. one for each drive. The DM01 supports two MFM drives. If no one replies in a day or two, I will try and locate my cable and specify exactly how the connectors are set up. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jul 21 15:14:54 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:14:54 -0500 Subject: Sage II computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E0023E.2080802@pacbell.net> Bill Sudbrink wrote: >>So yesterday (or was it the day before) I won the following Sage >>II computer on ebay: >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5218919241 > > > Sweet! I thought I had done well picking up those two Micro Complex > Sol upgrade boards, but you got a real bargain there. > > Bill Bill, I have two Sols with the 80/64 video upgrade, and I have docs (I think they are online already -- it is all such a blur what I've done or just thought about doing). Anyway, when you get around to trying the 80/64 update, let me know. I have no docs on the Z80 upgrade, though. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 21 13:20:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:20:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: New to list -- Many Issues -- Many Parts Available. In-Reply-To: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8960B3F66@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> from "Pat Fitzpatrick" at Jul 19, 5 04:30:35 pm Message-ID: > > Hi List, > > I've been a collector (and user) of obsolete computer systems for many > years. This list looks like a great source of information. Anyhow... > > Until our basement flooded a couple of weeks ago, I had: > > IMSAI 8080 with NorthStar Disk, KSR33 Teletype and Lear-Siegler ADM3A Terminal > A very strange home-built S-100 system > Apple II plus with Pascal Language System > Intel intellec 800 and MDS230 development systems > Sun 3/160 Solaris (some version or other) > HP64000 development systems with HP7912 disk > HP9816 computer > IBM PC and XT, 286, 386... (yeah, who cares) > > One thing I have learned form this experience is that computers do > not, in general, swim well. Anyhow, I now have a whole lot of partially Actually, I think you may be pleasantly suprised. Water does little damage to computer hardware if it's not powered up at the time. If this happened to me, I'd take things apart (remove all pluggable chips too), wash the parts with distilled water, then with propan-2-ol. I would think most electronic stuff would be OK. Mechanical stuff would need a full strip-down, clean and re-lubrication job, I think. But having rescued a DEC RK07 demountable hard disk that was flooped (when I got it, water was still sloshing around in the double-skinned part of the chassis that's used an a air duct), I think anything is possible. I bought that RK07 for things like the plastic front panel, switch buttons, etc, and hoped that perhaps some of the PCBs would have still-good parts on them. In the end, the whole thing was fine. I would not fancy repairing a winchester if the HDA had been flooded, though. > useful computers, boards, documentation, software etc. > The IMSAI box and the terminal are ok, but the disk drive (an SA400, I > believe) and (worse) the box of floppies didn't make it. The drive might > be salvageable, but I'm afraid the diskettes are toast. Does anyone out Have you tried carefully tearing open the seal on one side of the disk jacket and sliding the disk itself out. Then clean that with propan-2-ol and put it into a new jacket with one side slit open. You may find they're fine. > As for the HP64000s, the consoles are ok, but the disk drive drowned. > From a quick search, I'm not real optimistic about finding another HPIB > disk drive and I'm not too excited about plunging into this one to try > and fix him (he was running when the waters came and he smells very What model of disk drive is it? I have some _real_ service data on certain HP drives, and we might at least be able to see if the PSU is OK, if it's not, if it's still repairable, and if the controller is OK. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 21 13:28:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:28:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <200507200556.j6K5udIe048718@keith.ezwind.net> from "Director" at Jul 20, 5 00:47:38 am Message-ID: > > I've used a DC37 (note, AFAIK the DB37 does not exist, > > http://www.pccables.com/00830.htm > > http://www.mycableshop.com/3rd_Level/Switchbox-DB37.htm Do I have to go through this _every_ time... No matter what certain PC-goons think, the letter after the D indicates the shell size, and is not always B. The standard-density connectors and _some_ of their uses are : DE9 (Used for PC/AT serial ports, CGA video) DA15 (PC joystick, AUI ethernet, BBC micro analogue port) DB25 (PC parallel port, RS232, ACW user port, ACW keyboard, RML380Z user port) DC37 (PC external floppies, ACW 1MHz bus) DD50 (Sun SCSI, PERQ 3a SCSI) There are also high-density versions, DE15, DA26, DB44 and DC62. And I've seen others. > > > although the DB44 does) conenctor for all sorts of > > things, not related to RS449 > > http://www.mycableshop.com/sku/CAB-SS-449MT.htm I dod not dispute that the DC37 connector is used for RS449. I do dispute that it's the only use, or even the most common use (AFAIK I have no RS449 stuff. I do have quite a few DC37 connectors in use). > > > > AFter all, not all DB25s are RS232 ports :-) > > However, more DB25s were RS232 ports before IBM used a DB25 for a parallel > port and before they later changed serial ports to a DB9 connector. You mean a DE9 :-). Anyway, I wasn't thinking of the PC parallel port. I've got partially _valved_ equipment here that contains D connectors. And said equipment most certainly doesn;t have RS232 ports. > > Moreover, the DB25 connector is technically not a part of the RS-232 spec. Actually, I thought it was. Or maybe that's the V24 standard. > It is an de facto "standard." Agreed -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 21 14:54:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:54:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <200507211751.NAA25265@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jul 21, 5 01:31:38 pm Message-ID: > Like Tony, I've never seen a real DB37 and am inclined to doubt such a > beast exists. Other sizes do exist, but they are rather nonstandard; > for example, (some?) NeXT grayscale machines' monitor connector was a > D-shell connector with, if I recall, 19 pins - somewhere between DA and > DB size. (You could make a mechanically compatible connector by > removing pins from a DB25M or by cutting away part of one end of a > DB25F, though I don't know of anyone who's actually done either.) I > suppose you could call it a DA.KKKKKKK... connector, but that would be I've seen the 19 pin one called a DF19, and the 23 pine one (used somewhere on the Amiga, I believe) called a DG23. I don 't think those are official > excessively geeky :) and doesn't account for the way DE is actually > *smaller* than DD. (I assume DE was an afterthought.) I beleive that is the reason. The DE size shell came out later. > > >> although the DB44 does) > > !! Interesting. Where'd you see that, Tony? In some catalogue, along with the DA26. I don't think I've seen either in the flesh... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 21 15:10:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:10:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sage II computer In-Reply-To: <42DFEE32.9010106@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Jul 21, 5 01:49:22 pm Message-ID: > > So yesterday (or was it the day before) I won the following Sage II computer on > ebay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5218919241 > > The seller wanted $35 for shipping, but being local, I knew I'd have an > advantage since I can just pick it up. > > I never used one, but I recall them as being pretty sexy for the time. The > machine comes with no documentation. Fortunately, even though the auction It's a reasonable 68000-based machine. It's got 2 serial ports (one of which is used for the user's terminal), a parallel printer port and GPIB as standard. It's all on one PCB, right on top under the cover. Testing signals on IC pins is _trivial_. All the ICs (anoe are custom, either) are in sockets. The user manual, which I have, includes schematics. Not a bad machine for hardware types :-) -tony From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 21 15:49:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sage II computer In-Reply-To: <42DFEE32.9010106@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > EBay searches have not turned up any manuals for this machine. Other > O/Ss other than the p-System were used by this machine, eg, CP/M 68K. If > anybody has docs, software, or pointers to same, I'd appreciate > references to it. I've got one of these but I can't remember what documentation and software I got with it (nor where they are currently). If they turn up I'll let you know. > All in all, a good $22 ebay purchase. It's nice to see a great deal amidst all the stupidity of late. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 16:00:36 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:00:36 -0500 Subject: Flood damage (was Re: New to list -- Many Issues -- Many Parts Available.) In-Reply-To: References: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8960B3F66@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> Message-ID: On 7/21/05, Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, I think you may be pleasantly suprised. Water does little > damage to computer hardware if it's not powered up at the time. _Clean_ water does little damage to unpowered systems. I lost a Diablo 30 drive a number of years ago when it was being stored in the basement of my mother's shop along with a bunch of equipment in active use (11/23, LA180, RL01, RL02...) when the sewer line from the building to the alley was plugged (by flushed feminine products from the beauty salon next door) and first rainwater, then raw sewage backed up into the basement to a depth of about a foot. It took the building owner days to get things fixed and drained, during which time all the books on the bottom bookshelves had expanded and burst the shelves, lower boxes glued themselves to the floor, and internal parts of diablo drive had begun to rust. I did rescue the overwhelming majority of things from that basement - well over 90%. The insides of the diablo, though, were pretty nasty. Fortunately, the lower 2' of the H960 was empty, not even a power sequencer box to short out. None of the PDP-11 or PDP-8 stuff got so much as damp (lost a full box of greenbar paper, though). I'm not saying don't try to clean and recover stuff, but after a seeing a couple of comments about how safe water is, I wanted to remind people that flood water is rarely just water... it usually brings contaminants in with it, but if you are lucky, it's only a light organic residue. It's probably a lot more work than you might imagine, if you haven't done it already. As for how to proceed, I find Tony's comments entirely appropriate - isopropanol (as it's called in the US) is quite useful as a solvent and drying agent (because alcohol and water are soluable in each other, and the alcohol is more volatile) - get the good stuff (97%? 98%?), not 70% "rubbing alcohol", unless you are going to follow up 70% isopropanol with 98% propanol. I'd be more worried about stuff with relays than stuff with ICs, but IC pins can and will rust, and water does get down in sockets - don't forget to clean those. Good luck with cleanup. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 16:04:53 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:04:53 -0500 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: References: <200507211751.NAA25265@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On 7/21/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > !! Interesting. Where'd you see that, Tony? > > In some catalogue, along with the DA26. I don't think I've seen either in > the flesh... I have a Planar-brand bolt-to-the-wall-for-the-medical-industry 486 w/integral LCD that has a DB44 for an external IDE CDROM connection. Without docs, I traced out the DB25 for the external MFM floppy so I could boot an install floppy, but lacking a handy DB44M soldertail connector or pre-made cable to cannibalize, I never bothered tracing out the CD-ROM connector. I have seen similar density D-connectors (wider versions of a DE15HD VGA connector) on the back of older Cisco gear, but I can't remember what the shell was... perhaps they were DA26s. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 21 16:09:19 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:09:19 +0000 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121980159.5561.160.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-21 at 20:54 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Like Tony, I've never seen a real DB37 and am inclined to doubt such a > > beast exists. Other sizes do exist, but they are rather nonstandard; > > for example, (some?) NeXT grayscale machines' monitor connector was a > > D-shell connector with, if I recall, 19 pins - somewhere between DA and > > DB size. (You could make a mechanically compatible connector by > > removing pins from a DB25M or by cutting away part of one end of a > > DB25F, though I don't know of anyone who's actually done either.) I > > suppose you could call it a DA.KKKKKKK... connector, but that would be > > I've seen the 19 pin one called a DF19, and the 23 pine one (used > somewhere on the Amiga, I believe) called a DG23. I don 't think those > are official Urgh, I remember those Amiga ones... bloody impossible to get hold of. It was the video port on the A500 IIRC - if running on a TV the modulator plugged into this and was constantly falling out, so a short bit of cable between the two was a good idea. Cutting DB25's down to size used to work, but was a bit bodgelike :) > > >> although the DB44 does) > > > > !! Interesting. Where'd you see that, Tony? > > In some catalogue, along with the DA26. I don't think I've seen either in > the flesh... The DB44 *might* be what our CAMAC box uses on at least one of its cards... I'll have to have a look (don't have any photos handy). I'm not convinced it's any kind of standard pitch or shell size on that machine though; it might be something totally oddball. NCD xterms use the DA26 for their video IIRC - again they used to be hard to come by. My machine (it's at Bletchley hence I can't check) ended up with a short trailing lead from the system board to a standard VGA connector as it was easier than getting hold of the darn connector to make up a lead with. I've seen DA26's on something else too more recently, but can't for the life of me remember what - I have a feeling that was for something video-related too. cheers Jules From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Jul 21 16:11:09 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 05 21:11:09 GMT Subject: Mystery box Message-ID: <0507212111.AA21713@ivan.Harhan.ORG> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > In some catalogue, along with the DA26. I don't think I've seen either in > the flesh... I believe some Cisco routers have used DA26 for sync serial (WAN) ports. Then they switched to what they call DB60. For some time I was mad at them for calling it that ("There is no such standard as DB60, what connector is it *actually*?!"), but then I realised that they are actually correct - it is a DB size shell with 60 contacts inside. But of course even with this fact "DB60" still doesn't tell you how to make your own Cisco cables - for that you need to know that the actual connector is Molex and the Molex part number. I have the latter somewhere, so if someone wants it, I can look it up. (It took a LOT of social engineering to get that number out of Cisco!) MS From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Jul 21 16:30:45 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:30:45 -0400 Subject: Sage II computer In-Reply-To: <42E0023E.2080802@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > > Bill, I have two Sols with the 80/64 video upgrade, and I have > docs (I think they are online already -- it is all such a blur > what I've done or just thought about doing). Been there! > Anyway, when you get around to trying the 80/64 update, let me > know. Sure! Always good to have help. > I have no docs on the Z80 upgrade, though. I'm hoping it just drops into the 8080 socket. The picture kind of looks that way. By the way, are those two 50 pin connectors off the side of the Sage for 8 inch floppy drives? Bill From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jul 21 16:31:49 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:31:49 -0400 Subject: RQDX3 manual? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:11:09 GMT." <0507212111.AA21713@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200507212131.j6LLVnmC017484@mwave.heeltoe.com> Do anyone know if there is an RQDX3 manual on line? I just wanted to verify the jumper settings on one and could not find any info anywhere. -brad From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 16:37:26 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:37:26 -0500 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <0507212111.AA21713@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0507212111.AA21713@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On 7/21/05, Michael Sokolov wrote: > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > In some catalogue, along with the DA26. I don't think I've seen either in > > the flesh... > > I believe some Cisco routers have used DA26 for sync serial (WAN) ports. Those sound like what I was thinking of earlier. > Then they switched to what they call DB60. For some time I was mad at > them for calling it that ("There is no such standard as DB60, what > connector is it *actually*?!"), but then I realised that they are > actually correct - it is a DB size shell with 60 contacts inside. I don't own any, but I have seen them - a grid of 4x15 tiny pins. No idea it was called a DB60, though. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 16:41:45 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:41:45 -0500 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: References: <200507211751.NAA25265@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On 7/21/05, Tony Duell wrote: > I've seen the 19 pin one called a DF19, and the 23 pine one (used > somewhere on the Amiga, I believe) called a DG23. I don 't think those > are official Amigas used 23-pin male D connectors for external floppies and for video monitor connectors. From the view on the back of the CPU, a "DG23M" is video, and the DG23F is floppy. Before one could find 23-pin D-shell connectors commercially, it was somewhat common to see hacked-up DB25 connectors - at least one early maker of genlock devices made their cable with a blue plastic molded DB25F IDC-style for ribbon cable, and a hacksaw. -ethan From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Jul 21 17:15:23 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 05 22:15:23 GMT Subject: Mystery box Message-ID: <0507212215.AA21814@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I don't own any, but I have seen them - a grid of 4x15 tiny pins. Yes, that's it. > No idea it was called a DB60, though. But aren't those 4 rows of tiny pins fitted into a DB size shell? If they are, that would make it a DB60... MS From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Jul 21 17:34:00 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:34:00 +0100 Subject: New to list -- Many Issues -- Many Parts Available. In-Reply-To: <42DFC4AA.3080904@MyRealBox.com> References: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8960B3F66@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> <42DFC4AA.3080904@MyRealBox.com> Message-ID: <8e06278e4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <42DFC4AA.3080904 at MyRealBox.com> you wrote: > I started a project on Sourceforge (softcs80) to do that. I found the > specs on bitsavers (Thanks Al) and they don't look to terribly bad... If > only a PCI GPIB card would be a bit cheaper... The Keithley Instruments and CEC boards can be had for not very much money second-hand. I've got a CEC PCI-488 (aka PCI<=>488) that I picked up for $40, including a GPIB cable. It has an NI-488 translation layer too, so most of the ready-written code works on it. Mine is basically a NEC GPIB chip, with a PLX PCI->ISA translator and some NatSemi linedrivers. Works quite well, actually. Sure it doesn't have the "turbo modes" the NI boards have, but I've never needed them anyway - none of my GPIB peripherals speak high-speed GPIB. I'd be only too happy to do some testing and/or development on SoftCS80, but I don't think I've got anything that'll talk to a CS80 (unless HP sneaked CS80 support into the System software for the 1651B logic analyser). Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Where there's a will, there's an Inheritance Tax. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Jul 21 17:37:39 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:37:39 +0100 Subject: Vintage people: Alan Kay laid off at HP In-Reply-To: <20050721115445.V1508@fiche.wps.com> References: <200507211502.j6LF2B6n065263@keith.ezwind.net> <20050721115445.V1508@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <215c278e4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <20050721115445.V1508 at fiche.wps.com> Tom Jennings wrote: > HP to world: "Stop or I'll shoot!" with gun pointed at own head. World to HP: FX-> world continues doing what it was doing. HP pulls trigger. The end. :-P Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... I'll have what the guy on the floor is having... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jul 21 18:03:57 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:03:57 -0600 Subject: Sage II computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E029DD.7000700@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > It's nice to see a great deal amidst all the stupidity of late. That was a good deal, but will not be using ebay with all the stupid *eBay Fraud Mediation Request* mail I have been getting. The stupid thing is the date is for January 21,2005 I think this was because of pay-pal hacking on my email address. All the more reasons not to use ebay. Ben alias woodelf From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Jul 21 18:13:31 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:13:31 -0400 Subject: Apollo stuff References: <200507131606.j6DG6OZA061780@keith.ezwind.net><20050720101137.0e298978.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><000901c58d82$83611610$0100a8c0@screamer><20050721195046.045dd025.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <17119.60996.843000.851439@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <000501c58e49$d09c53f0$0100a8c0@screamer> There are etches going to the other pins. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 2:49 PM Subject: Re: Apollo stuff >>>>>> "Jochen" == Jochen Kunz writes: > > Jochen> On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:26:52 -0400 "Bob Shannon" > Jochen> wrote: > > >> Actually several other pins are active. The token ring card can > >> tell when no cable is installed, so there are at least 2 cable > >> detect pins. > Jochen> Most likely it determines this by measuring the impedance of > Jochen> the two coax connections. But I may be wrong here. > > Jochen> At least I know from some DECstation and VAXstation > Jochen> framebuffers that they report an error at Power On Self Test > Jochen> when no monitor is connected. As these framebuffers use 3W3 > Jochen> they have no extra pins for cable detection. They measure > Jochen> somehow DC impedance, AC waveform or the like to detect an > Jochen> open wire. -- > > Either would work. DC impedance is easy -- for a classic > transmission line configuration terminated in the characteristic > impedance at both ends, you'd see a DC impedance of R/2 (37.5 ohms in > this case) if it's hooked up, but R (75 ohms) if there is no > connection. > > A peak voltage sensor would work too -- peak voltage when correctly > terminated is the line driver output peak voltage, but with an open > circuit it's double that. > > paul > > From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Jul 21 18:38:19 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:38:19 -0400 Subject: New to list -- Many Issues -- Many Parts Available. In-Reply-To: <200507211557.j6LFvUpL052450@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200507212338.j6LNcFHI024287@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> About those Northstar disks .... I'd consider cutting open the jackets, removing the mylar, rinsing it in clean water, drying completely (be careful not to dent/crease the mylar) and put the mylar into a new, cut-open jacket from a soft sector 5.25" diskette. They will probably be ok. Hard-sector disks (both 5" and 8" of any type at all) are VERY hard to find. They do show up on E-Bay occasionally, but not often. I think that Pat Swayne of SEBHC (society of eight-bit heath(kit) computers) had some NEW 10-sector disks newly made last year. They are, however, expensive (almost $2 per disk), and I'm not sure if he has any left. From alhartman at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 19:39:22 2005 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stuff for pickup in NE Philadelphia In-Reply-To: <200507211610.j6LG9tCF053444@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050722003922.65558.qmail@web30610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I've got two for sure, possibly three barely used Wyse 60 Terminals which anyone who is willing to make the trip to NE Philadelphia is welcome to. I had gotten them in the hopes of using them as terminals to a Linux Box, but now... They are taking up too much room. I also have an IBM AT, current condition unknown. I think it's a 10mhz unit with at least a 10mb HDD and DOS on it. I believe I still have an original IBM AT Keyboard for it as well. It booted the last time I tried to use it. I *MIGHT* have a matching CGA monitor for it. Probably the Princeton Clone of the IBM Display. I also have a couple of TTL Monochrome Monitors. E-mail me off list to make arrangements. These are free for the taking. Thanks!!! I'm located near where Route 1 and the Penna Turnpike cross. Just south of the NE Border of Philadelphia. Al Hartman Phila, PA ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 21 19:40:16 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:40:16 -0400 Subject: Sage II computer In-Reply-To: <42E029DD.7000700@jetnet.ab.ca> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050721204016.00a34500@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:03 PM 7/21/05 -0600, Ben alias woodelf wrote: >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> >> It's nice to see a great deal amidst all the stupidity of late. > >That was a good deal, but will not be using ebay with all >the stupid *eBay Fraud Mediation Request* mail I have been >getting. The stupid thing is the date is for January 21,2005 >I think this was because of pay-pal hacking on my email address. >All the more reasons not to use ebay. You shouldn't give up on E-bay just because PayPal is FULL of fraud. You should DUMP PayPal and refuse to use them under ANY circumstance. See and . Joe From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jul 21 19:50:59 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:50:59 -0500 Subject: 82S131 Message-ID: <01e801c58e57$6d68c990$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone was looking for a source for the 82S131 chips here a few weeks ago, I forget who. I have a good source, email me off-list. Jay West From James at jdfogg.com Thu Jul 21 20:09:27 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:09:27 -0400 Subject: Orphaned OS thoughts Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045C1C@sbs.jdfogg.com> While reading an old resume, I came across something I forgot about. I used to admin some 3Com 3+ and 3+/Open systems. 3Com made the hardware (beefed up PC stuff) and wrote or owned the OS. Anybody know what became of 3+/Open? -James James Fogg JD Fogg Technology Consulting 18 Watershed Lane Wilmot, NH 03287 (603) 724-2243 www.jdfogg.com From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jul 21 20:12:55 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:12:55 -0500 Subject: Sage II computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E04817.3040206@pacbell.net> Bill Sudbrink wrote: >>Bill, I have two Sols with the 80/64 video upgrade, and I have >>docs (I think they are online already -- it is all such a blur >>what I've done or just thought about doing). > > > Been there! > > >>Anyway, when you get around to trying the 80/64 update, let me >>know. > > > Sure! Always good to have help. > > >>I have no docs on the Z80 upgrade, though. > > > I'm hoping it just drops into the 8080 socket. The picture kind of > looks that way. A couple of the proteus newsletters (towards the end of the run) review the product. I know the first review said that the beta version wasn't working 100%, but that the designer (bob hogg) was still working out the kinks. > By the way, are those two 50 pin connectors off the side of the Sage > for 8 inch floppy drives? Without documentation it is hard to know for sure, but they are 50 pin connectors. I'm not sure why there are two of them, as I would have expected the usual daisy chain connection if there were two external drives. I suspect that this machine was last used in the late 80s, and whatever hardware it was paired with at the time is now long gone. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 21 20:03:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 02:03:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sage II computer In-Reply-To: <42E04817.3040206@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Jul 21, 5 08:12:55 pm Message-ID: > > By the way, are those two 50 pin connectors off the side of the Sage > > for 8 inch floppy drives? > > Without documentation it is hard to know for sure, but they are 50 pin > connectors. I'm not sure why there are two of them, as I would have expected No,m they're not drive connectors. They're basically the 68000 bus and a few extra signals. They were used for special-purpose add-ons -- my Sage II has an interface to a Pluto graphics box fitted. It's a little PCB on stand-offs (stuck to the main Sage board) with a couple of short cables going to those connectors. -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jul 21 20:29:53 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:29:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <1121980159.5561.160.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1121980159.5561.160.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200507220131.VAA27524@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > NCD xterms use the DA26 for their video IIRC - Maybe some do. I have an NCD 19r, and its video connector is a DA15. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jul 21 21:26:10 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:26:10 -0600 Subject: Sage II computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050721204016.00a34500@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050721204016.00a34500@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42E05942.8090807@jetnet.ab.ca> Joe R. wrote: > > You shouldn't give up on E-bay just because PayPal is FULL of fraud. > You should DUMP PayPal and refuse to use them under ANY circumstance. See So who says I have EVER used PayPal. :( > Joe From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jul 21 21:52:36 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:52:36 -0500 Subject: knowledge base Message-ID: <02b001c58e68$6aac0ad0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> The comment feature on the knowledge base is back working again. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jul 21 21:56:16 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:56:16 -0500 Subject: tek scopes Message-ID: <02b601c58e68$ee2285b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ok, what am I missing here.... Can someone tell me why Tek 2246 scopes (4 channel 100mhz) consistently sell for MORE than Tek 2465 scopes (4 channel 300mhz)? It's time for me to upgrade my scope, and those were the two models I was considering. But I just don't see why the 2246 is worth more money than a 2465. Can anyone enlighten me? Jay From jcwren at jcwren.com Thu Jul 21 22:04:55 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:04:55 -0400 Subject: tek scopes In-Reply-To: <02b601c58e68$ee2285b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <02b601c58e68$ee2285b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42E06257.2050004@jcwren.com> Probably because the 2246 has the SmartCursors, which isn't available until the 2465B. A 2465B goes for a good bit more than a straight 2465. --jc Jay West wrote: > Ok, what am I missing here.... > > Can someone tell me why Tek 2246 scopes (4 channel 100mhz) > consistently sell for MORE than Tek 2465 scopes (4 channel 300mhz)? > > It's time for me to upgrade my scope, and those were the two models I > was considering. But I just don't see why the 2246 is worth more money > than a 2465. Can anyone enlighten me? > > Jay > > > From jcwren at jcwren.com Thu Jul 21 22:07:47 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:07:47 -0400 Subject: tek scopes In-Reply-To: <02b601c58e68$ee2285b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <02b601c58e68$ee2285b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42E06303.2000004@jcwren.com> Go there, check the 2465, 2465B, 2246 boxes, then click 'Compare' at the top of the page. --jc Jay West wrote: > Ok, what am I missing here.... > > Can someone tell me why Tek 2246 scopes (4 channel 100mhz) > consistently sell for MORE than Tek 2465 scopes (4 channel 300mhz)? > > It's time for me to upgrade my scope, and those were the two models I > was considering. But I just don't see why the 2246 is worth more money > than a 2465. Can anyone enlighten me? > > Jay > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jul 21 22:21:19 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:21:19 -0500 Subject: tek scopes References: <02b601c58e68$ee2285b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42E06257.2050004@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <02ef01c58e6c$6da291b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> JC wrote... > Probably because the 2246 has the SmartCursors, which isn't available > until the 2465B. A 2465B goes for a good bit more than a straight 2465. I was sure the 2465's all had smartcursors too.... guess not. That feature explain the difference? I was planning on going with the 2246 actually. Working on 21MX, PDP8, PDP11, and DG nova/Eclipse... I can't imagine I'd need over 100mhz. Am I wrong? Jay From jcwren at jcwren.com Thu Jul 21 22:45:00 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:45:00 -0400 Subject: tek scopes In-Reply-To: <02ef01c58e6c$6da291b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <02b601c58e68$ee2285b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42E06257.2050004@jcwren.com> <02ef01c58e6c$6da291b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42E06BBC.8030307@jcwren.com> A 100Mhz would easily handle anything for those types of machines. I've never used a 2246, but I do have a 2445. It's the 150Mhz version of the 2465. I'd love to have a B in either it or a 2465. You *may* be able to find a 2445B at a better price. I haven't priced those in sometime. What I do know is that my 2445 that I paid $800 for about 5 years has sold as low as $400 on eBay in the last few months (where I buy a lot of my test equipment), and it had a semi-recent calibration on it. I don't know what your budget is, but you may also want to consider something like a Tektronix 3014B or similiar. These are color LCD scopes, 4 channels, all the Smart features, floppies, etc. The major advantage of them is they are more current. It's damn near impossible to find tubes and the vertical amplifiers (and no doubt many other parts) for the 24x5 series. They're old scopes, Tektronix doesn't calibrate them any more, and except for one place I've found who will do a complete swap out for something like $1200, they're very difficult to get repaired. Of course, the argument here on the list will be "Well, you can get schematics for the old scopes and fix them yourselves." Except when you can't get parts, which seem to be a lot of them (for instance, even something as simple as a cover for the scope is hard to come by). The newer LCD scopes are no doubt not-fixable yourself (the old "It's got ICs" argument). However, my take it's a more capable 'scope with a lot of useful features (DSOs are great for most types of work), and it's less likly to break before the 24x5 will. We've got two at work that have had the crap beat out of them on trips, and they work fine. They are also *much* lighter if you need to tote them anywhere. --jc Jay West wrote: > JC wrote... > >> Probably because the 2246 has the SmartCursors, which isn't available >> until the 2465B. A 2465B goes for a good bit more than a straight 2465. > > > I was sure the 2465's all had smartcursors too.... guess not. That > feature explain the difference? > > I was planning on going with the 2246 actually. Working on 21MX, PDP8, > PDP11, and DG nova/Eclipse... I can't imagine I'd need over 100mhz. Am > I wrong? > > Jay > From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 22:58:31 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I on ebay - this time it's for real. Message-ID: <20050722035831.90445.qmail@web40913.mail.yahoo.com> Only $20,000 - includes wooden box. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5791473252&category=80075&rd=1 Same thing: http://tinyurl.com/bb4dl ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 21 23:03:13 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:03:13 -0700 Subject: RQDX3 manual? Message-ID: <9bd099584e458caaa383491e1db97e3b@bitsavers.org> > Do anyone know if there is an RQDX3 manual on line? here is a scan from fiche http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/fiche/EK-RQDX3-UG-001_Nov85.pdf From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 22 00:45:04 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:45:04 -0500 Subject: 82S131 In-Reply-To: <01e801c58e57$6d68c990$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050722004345.025468c0@mail.ubanproductions.com> Hi Jay, I'm interested in a good source for 82S131s. Also, you never indicated if a non-blank DEC rack header panel would be ok. It turns out that I don't have any spare blank ones... sorry! --tom At 07:50 PM 7/21/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Someone was looking for a source for the 82S131 chips here a few weeks >ago, I forget who. I have a good source, email me off-list. > >Jay West > > From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 22 00:54:44 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:54:44 -0400 Subject: Apple I on ebay - this time it's for real. In-Reply-To: <20050722035831.90445.qmail@web40913.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200507220602.j6M62cb6075101@keith.ezwind.net> It will be interesting to see if Dennis Komisky buys this one. Hey, how about that: DK revealed. Maybe they'll put me in jail next to Judith Miller's cell. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steven stengel Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:59 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Apple I on ebay - this time it's for real. Only $20,000 - includes wooden box. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5791473252&category=80075 &rd=1 Same thing: http://tinyurl.com/bb4dl ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to Fri Jul 22 00:58:10 2005 From: akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:58:10 -0400 Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: <17119.60721.756000.335292@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (Paul Koning's message of "Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:45:05 -0400") References: <17119.58083.197271.133880@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17119.60721.756000.335292@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <0q64v3e619.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Paul Koning writes: > They certainly had linecasting machines driven from paper tape. In 1935. Yow. Linotype was almost always a cutting edge company; highlights of the company history, from http://www.linotype.com/10-10-10-14026/1973.html 1975 introduced machines with floppy drives 1978 introduced machines which stored fonts as outline vectors 1985 lino, adobe, apple, and itc "cooperate in typography and technology" by the early 90s they had 1200 and 2400 dpi postscript RIP's and tabloid sized laser printers for use as typesetters. some of the original postscript fonts were licensed from them by adobe; they seem to own helvetica, optima, and palatino among others. They merged with Hell, a printing press maker, around 1990. Today they exist as a font vendor, owned by Heidelberg (probably the world's foremost printing press maker). those boxes on ebay might not be stripped, except for that one missing drive; industrial stuff like this often has open option slots. apple II's did get embedded into some pretty unusual places. Around 1983 I saw one running the player piano roll punching equipment at QRS. In 1997, the self-storage facility in nj that I moved out of still had one controlling the whole operation; alarm system, entry gate keycode, printing the bills, etc. Both of those were still in beige plastic cases, though; I've never seen one mounted inside something else. Unless you count the II's on a card for the Mac LC, of course. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri Jul 22 00:58:29 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:58:29 +0200 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: References: <200507211751.NAA25265@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050722055829.GC15946@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-07-21 16:04:53 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/21/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > !! Interesting. Where'd you see that, Tony? > > > > In some catalogue, along with the DA26. I don't think I've seen either in > > the flesh... > > I have a Planar-brand bolt-to-the-wall-for-the-medical-industry 486 > w/integral LCD that has a DB44 for an external IDE CDROM connection. > Without docs, I traced out the DB25 for the external MFM floppy so I > could boot an install floppy, but lacking a handy DB44M soldertail > connector or pre-made cable to cannibalize, I never bothered tracing > out the CD-ROM connector. Erm, I seem to remember these CD-ROMs too. I'm not sure if I still have that CD-ROM and it's ISA card around, but for sure the card basically contained a 8255 (the parport chip used in PeeCees). The board's schematics were quite easy to reverse-engineer (after all, it's basically a printer card with an uncommon connector on the CD-ROM side and an address decoder on the bus side). For what it's worth, I even have some programming notes around (for I've seen them not long ago, but I cannot find them right now :-) If memory serves me correctly, the CD-ROM was made by Hitachi, but that's only an educated guess right now... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From marvin at rain.org Fri Jul 22 01:04:45 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:04:45 -0700 Subject: Apple II vs Apple II+ Message-ID: <42E08C7D.A983D653@rain.org> In cleaning out one of the closets, I ran across a number of Apple II+ machines and what I suspect might be an Apple II. The top cover has the Apple II logo on one of the machines and it looks identical to the Apple II+. Is there an easy way I can tell the difference between the two machines? If I indeed have the Apple II, then all I am looking for will be the Bell & Howell Black Apple II+ to complete the Apple II series of machines through the Apple //e enhanced. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Jul 22 05:27:12 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:27:12 -0400 Subject: tek scopes In-Reply-To: <42E06BBC.8030307@jcwren.com> References: <02b601c58e68$ee2285b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42E06257.2050004@jcwren.com> <02ef01c58e6c$6da291b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42E06BBC.8030307@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <42E0CA00.nailGDB176JQQ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Well, you can get schematics for the old scopes and fix them yourselves. > Except when you can't get parts, which seem to be a lot of them True about parts. Even for my easy-to-maintain 465B there are a lot of mechanical parts and many electronic parts that can only be found from "donor" scopes. Luckily (at least for 465B's) donor scopes (already stripped somewhat) are commonly available on E-bay. Tim. From dmabry at mich.com Fri Jul 22 06:09:33 2005 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:09:33 -0400 Subject: Grid 1520 In-Reply-To: <000601c58cc5$f00a9b00$a8b959d1@ab.hsia.telus.net> References: <000601c58cc5$f00a9b00$a8b959d1@ab.hsia.telus.net> Message-ID: <42E0D3ED.4070103@mich.com> Perspective Management Group wrote: >Hi Guys > Just aquired a gridcase 1520, how do I remove the battery, and where might I find a battery? > > >Frank D. >Senior Projects Coordinator >Perspective Management Group >33 Hazelton Avenue, >Suite 110 >Toronto, Ontario >M5R 2E3 >Tel: 416.208.0755 >pmgroup at telus.net > >CONFIDENTIATILITY CONCERN: > >This message is intended only for use of the individual or entity to which it has been addressed and may >contain information that is priveleged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby > notified that any dissemination, distrubution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If this communication >has been received in error, respond immediately by returning e-mail, and delete all copies of this material. > > > > > > > Frank, If you are talking about the main battery, it is in the back of the computer. There is a push button mechanical release just under the opening for the battery. When you push the button the battery should pop out about 1/4 of an inch from the spring tension of the contacts. If you are talking about the cmos battery, it is under the keyboard bezel and it a little harder to get to. You have to disassemble the computer, at least partially, to get to it. The battery life on that series of the GRiDcase was so bad that most people I knew who used them didn't bother to use them with batteries. GRiD made an AC adapter that was the same size and shape as the battery that fit into the battery slot and took a standard Euro-type power cord to the wall. The 1520 was based on the 80286 cpu and it wasn't really the most power efficient. Couple that with a fairly power-hungry display on the computer and you get about 15 minutes to 30 minutes of battery life on a good pack. Hope this helps. Dave From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 22 06:29:36 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:29:36 +0000 Subject: tek scopes In-Reply-To: <02ef01c58e6c$6da291b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <02b601c58e68$ee2285b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42E06257.2050004@jcwren.com> <02ef01c58e6c$6da291b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1122031776.7213.87.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-21 at 22:21 -0500, Jay West wrote: > I can't imagine I'd need over 100mhz. Am I wrong? "640KB will always be enough" :-) I suppose it's one of those cases where as soon as you get it you'll find a need for the things that it cant do... just a question of how often that's likely to happen. Not often in terms of classic stuff I'd expect. The cynic in me wants to say that you should worry about something faster in two years when the current purchase breaks due to bad build quality and marginal components ;-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 22 06:30:58 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:30:58 +0000 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <200507220131.VAA27524@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1121980159.5561.160.camel@weka.localdomain> <200507220131.VAA27524@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1122031858.7194.90.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-21 at 21:29 -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > NCD xterms use the DA26 for their video IIRC - > > Maybe some do. I have an NCD 19r, and its video connector is a DA15. You're lucky :-) Mine's an 88k 17c, so maybe it was just the 88k machines that got the funky connector (I *think* the 19r's something a bit more conventional CPU-wise) From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jul 22 06:25:20 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:25:20 -0500 Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: <0q64v3e619.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <17119.58083.197271.133880@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17119.60721.756000.335292@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0q64v3e619.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050722062155.052feb70@mail> At 12:58 AM 7/22/2005, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: >Paul Koning writes: >> They certainly had linecasting machines driven from paper tape. >In 1935. Yow. >Linotype was almost always a cutting edge company; Mark Twain lost much of his fortune betting on the typesetting race in the 1880s. See http://www.marktwainhouse.org/themuseum/archivist.shtml for a bit about the Paige automatic type compositor and its competition with Linotype. - John From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 22 07:05:51 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:05:51 -0400 Subject: tek scopes In-Reply-To: <02b601c58e68$ee2285b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050722080551.00a3e480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> It may be because the 2465s have a reputation for being unrepairable due to use of hybrid components. Joe At 09:56 PM 7/21/05 -0500, you wrote: >Ok, what am I missing here.... > >Can someone tell me why Tek 2246 scopes (4 channel 100mhz) consistently sell >for MORE than Tek 2465 scopes (4 channel 300mhz)? > >It's time for me to upgrade my scope, and those were the two models I was >considering. But I just don't see why the 2246 is worth more money than a >2465. Can anyone enlighten me? > >Jay > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jul 22 07:58:35 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:58:35 -0400 Subject: RQDX3 manual? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 Jul 2005 21:03:13 PDT." <9bd099584e458caaa383491e1db97e3b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200507221258.j6MCwZu7028163@mwave.heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > > Do anyone know if there is an RQDX3 manual on line? > >here is a scan from fiche > >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/fiche/EK-RQDX3-UG-001_Nov85.pdf Thanks Al! -brad From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jul 22 08:49:41 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <1122031858.7194.90.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1121980159.5561.160.camel@weka.localdomain> <200507220131.VAA27524@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1122031858.7194.90.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200507221350.JAA10299@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > (I *think* the [NCD] 19r's something a bit more conventional CPU-wise) One of the MIPS line (I don't know exactly which one). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 22 09:46:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: <0q64v3e619.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > Both of those were still in beige plastic cases, though; > I've never seen one mounted inside something else. Unless > you count the II's on a card for the Mac LC, of course. Remember that lots of Apple ][ clones appeared in very interesting and different cases. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 22 09:49:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II vs Apple II+ In-Reply-To: <42E08C7D.A983D653@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > In cleaning out one of the closets, I ran across a number of Apple II+ > machines and what I suspect might be an Apple II. The top cover has the > Apple II logo on one of the machines and it looks identical to the Apple > II+. Is there an easy way I can tell the difference between the two > machines? If I indeed have the Apple II, then all I am looking for will > be the Bell & Howell Black Apple II+ to complete the Apple II series of > machines through the Apple //e enhanced. Marvin, Compare the motherboards. The earliest Apple ]['s will have a small breadboarding area underneath the keyboard at the front of the MB. You also want to check the revision on the board. I don't know off-hand the revisions that help you determine what is what but that info is available online. Keep in mind that many Apple ]['s were upgraded over the years with ][+ motherboards. Hopefully yours is a straight ][. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jul 22 09:57:48 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:57:48 -0500 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <200507221350.JAA10299@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1122031858.7194.90.camel@weka.localdomain> <200507221350.JAA10299@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200507220957.48450.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 22 July 2005 08:49, der Mouse wrote: > > (I *think* the [NCD] 19r's something a bit more conventional > > CPU-wise) > > One of the MIPS line (I don't know exactly which one). I don't think an i960 is a MIPS CPU but I might be wrong. :) I've got a couple 19r's and thought about running something other than the 'standard' OS on them before... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From emu at ecubics.com Fri Jul 22 10:38:30 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:38:30 -0600 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <200507221350.JAA10299@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1121980159.5561.160.camel@weka.localdomain> <200507220131.VAA27524@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1122031858.7194.90.camel@weka.localdomain> <200507221350.JAA10299@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <42E112F6.5080506@ecubics.com> der Mouse wrote: >>(I *think* the [NCD] 19r's something a bit more conventional CPU-wise) You're probably thinking about the RocketX aka LSI 33320 MIPS cpu's ? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 22 10:48:42 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:48:42 +0000 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <200507220957.48450.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <1122031858.7194.90.camel@weka.localdomain> <200507221350.JAA10299@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200507220957.48450.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1122047322.7194.145.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-22 at 09:57 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I've got a couple 19r's and thought about running something other than > the 'standard' OS on them before... Someone's certainly got a few rudimentary things (of the "hello world" type level) working on the 88k xterms - I'm not aware of anyone doing the same for different ones though. But at the end of the day the whole design's geared around being a remote display, so I'm not sure what use they'd be for anything else (that they couldn't already be used for as a remote display). Lot of investment for very little useful gain. The only thing they really lack is any useful audio capability. Giving them 44KHz stereo audio ability would be nice... cheers Jules From wacarder at earthlink.net Fri Jul 22 11:04:18 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:04:18 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Decitek Reader and Remix punch Message-ID: <20333399.1122048259144.JavaMail.root@wamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Today I obtained a Genrad 1797 programming station. It consists of a PDP-8a, 3 RK05s, a Decitek paper tape reader, a Remix paper tape punch, and a Genrad interface unit. Also with the system is a DecWriter III and 3 RK05 16 sector packs, as well as an alignment pack. I have not begun to study the system yet. Quick questions: 1) The Decitek reader appears to have a serial (EIA / RS232) interface. Can someone point me to some documentaion on how this might be interfaced to a PDP-11? 2) Same question as #1, but for the Remix paper tape punch 3) What were these GenRad programming stations used for? 4) What is the purpose of the GenRad 1795-3010 interface unit? BTW, the system looks to be in good condition and was said to be running before it was decomssioned just a few months ago. Once I get a 30A 4-prong receptacle installed for it, I'll fire it up and see what it's all about. There is a boot pack for it. Any help or pointers on where to find information on the Decitek reader, Remix punch, and GenRad equipment in general would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Ashley From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 22 11:11:07 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:11:07 -0500 Subject: Decitek Reader and Remix punch In-Reply-To: <20333399.1122048259144.JavaMail.root@wamui-little.atl.sa.e arthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050722111051.06df2008@mail.ubanproductions.com> Sounds like a nice system Ashley! --tom At 12:04 PM 7/22/2005 -0400, you wrote: >Today I obtained a Genrad 1797 programming station. It consists of a >PDP-8a, 3 RK05s, a Decitek paper tape reader, a Remix paper tape punch, >and a Genrad interface unit. Also with the system is a DecWriter III and >3 RK05 16 sector packs, as well as an alignment pack. > >I have not begun to study the system yet. Quick questions: > >1) The Decitek reader appears to have a serial (EIA / RS232) >interface. Can someone point me to some documentaion on how this might be >interfaced to a PDP-11? > >2) Same question as #1, but for the Remix paper tape punch > >3) What were these GenRad programming stations used for? > >4) What is the purpose of the GenRad 1795-3010 interface unit? > >BTW, the system looks to be in good condition and was said to be running >before it was decomssioned just a few months ago. Once I get a 30A >4-prong receptacle installed for it, I'll fire it up and see what it's all >about. There is a boot pack for it. > >Any help or pointers on where to find information on the Decitek reader, >Remix punch, and GenRad equipment in general would be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks, >Ashley From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Fri Jul 22 11:11:54 2005 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FS: 2 NEC APC's available outside of Boston Message-ID: <20050722161155.37470.qmail@web51913.mail.yahoo.com> In case anyone is interested.... http://boston.craigslist.org/sys/86152795.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jul 22 11:13:17 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:13:17 -0400 Subject: Decitek Reader and Remix punch References: <20333399.1122048259144.JavaMail.root@wamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <17121.6941.24056.700241@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ashley" == Ashley Carder writes: Ashley> Today I obtained a Genrad 1797 programming station. It Ashley> consists of a PDP-8a, 3 RK05s, a Decitek paper tape reader, a Ashley> Remix paper tape punch, and a Genrad interface unit. Also Ashley> with the system is a DecWriter III and 3 RK05 16 sector Ashley> packs, as well as an alignment pack. I have not begun to Ashley> study the system yet. Quick questions: Ashley> 1) The Decitek reader appears to have a serial (EIA / RS232) Ashley> interface. Can someone point me to some documentaion on how Ashley> this might be interfaced to a PDP-11? Ashley> 2) Same question as #1, but for the Remix paper tape punch Almost all the serial interfaces have RS-232 options -- hook it up to your RSTS system... Assuming that things obey the standard, which pre-PC stuff usually did, you can tell from the connector gender whether you need a null modem or not. If the connector is DB-25 male, use a null modem cable; if female, use a straight through (DTE to DCE) cable. The former is what I would expect, but surprises happen... paul From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Jul 22 11:24:29 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:24:29 -0700 Subject: 11/34a help Message-ID: Recently recovered a /34a with the following configuration: /34a-DE with KY11-LB M9301-YF terminator/boot M7856 DL11-W RK11-D (with RK05F and RK05 drives) M7846 (with dual RX01) and the following that I'm not at all familiar with: Jorway Model 411 CAMAC? Looks like a Massbus cable going into it. Applied Magnetics Trendata memory board MM-135?: ACT quad board that appears to be 4 serial ports; it has 4x40-pin Bergs that sound link a Quadralink (?) that was mentioned recently on the list. Any information on these last three items would be greatly appreciated. I'm more familiar with LSI CPUs and /70 or /84 machines so the /34 should be fun. Thanks, John From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jul 22 11:47:03 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:47:03 -0400 Subject: Found in a spam... (ontopic, really!!!) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050722124331.03a30b70@mail.30below.com> Spammers are getting pretty crazy trying to fool the word & bayesian filters, when you see stuff like this in a spam for "c1 at l1s t at bs".. "Someday we'll discover a dinosaur nest in Arizona and right next to the fossil will be a stone-etched PRIMOS manual. It was probably PRIMOS that caused the dinosaurs to die off in the first place. -- Ari Rapkin's uvacs quotes" (sorry for the funky wordwrap -- my xterm that runs mutt is 100chrs wide...) Oddly enough, I've gotten a few decent jokes from spams lately, too... Whatta weird Friday, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 22 12:10:45 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:10:45 -0500 Subject: Decitek Reader and Remix punch In-Reply-To: <17121.6941.24056.700241@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20333399.1122048259144.JavaMail.root@wamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050722120835.06d8dce8@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 12:13 PM 7/22/2005 -0400, you wrote: > >>>>> "Ashley" == Ashley Carder writes: > > Ashley> Today I obtained a Genrad 1797 programming station. It > Ashley> consists of a PDP-8a, 3 RK05s, a Decitek paper tape reader, a > Ashley> Remix paper tape punch, and a Genrad interface unit. Also > Ashley> with the system is a DecWriter III and 3 RK05 16 sector > Ashley> packs, as well as an alignment pack. I have not begun to > Ashley> study the system yet. Quick questions: > > Ashley> 1) The Decitek reader appears to have a serial (EIA / RS232) > Ashley> interface. Can someone point me to some documentaion on how > Ashley> this might be interfaced to a PDP-11? > > Ashley> 2) Same question as #1, but for the Remix paper tape punch > >Almost all the serial interfaces have RS-232 options -- hook it up to >your RSTS system... > >Assuming that things obey the standard, which pre-PC stuff usually >did, you can tell from the connector gender whether you need a null >modem or not. If the connector is DB-25 male, use a null modem cable; >if female, use a straight through (DTE to DCE) cable. The former is >what I would expect, but surprises happen... It sounded like maybe the question was whether the standard software to utilize the reader/punch knew about a reader/punch on a serial port vs. the standard PC11 interface. I don't know the answer to this question, but I would guess that Remix (or some 3rd party) made a PC11 compatible interface for the Remix reader/punch. --tom From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Jul 22 12:36:19 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:36:19 +0100 Subject: Repairing IC pins Message-ID: Hi folks, Does anyone know of a way to repair IC pins that have been broken off at the point where they leave the IC casing? I've got a couple of chips with missing pins here and was just wondering if it was possible... Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Anything not nailed down is a cat's toy From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 22 12:43:40 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:43:40 -0700 Subject: 11/34a help Message-ID: <227484815e1491a7d0cda14d9dde5639@bitsavers.org> > Jorway Model 411 CAMAC? Looks like a Massbus cable going into it. That would be a CAMAC (IEEE 585) crate to Unibus interface. CAMAC docs are much less common than the modules or interfaces, unfortunately. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 12:47:03 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:47:03 +0100 Subject: Grid 1520 In-Reply-To: <000601c58cc5$f00a9b00$a8b959d1@ab.hsia.telus.net> References: <000601c58cc5$f00a9b00$a8b959d1@ab.hsia.telus.net> Message-ID: On 7/20/05, Perspective Management Group wrote: > Hi Guys > Just aquired a gridcase 1520, how do I remove the battery, and where might I find a battery? If it's the same as the 1520 I had, IIRC there's a button below/next to the battery (mine had a PSU instead of a battery). Press it, and the battery/PSU will pop out about 1/4" and can then be withdrawn. Ed. From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Fri Jul 22 12:52:33 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:52:33 -0500 Subject: Repairing IC pins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E13261.3000303@vzavenue.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: >Hi folks, > Does anyone know of a way to repair IC pins that have been broken off at >the point where they leave the IC casing? I've got a couple of chips with >missing pins here and was just wondering if it was possible... > >Thanks. > > I've done it on BIOS chips once or twice. I began by carefully scraping the case material away at the seam of the IC until a small bit of chip lead was exposed. After that I placed the chip into a scrap socket and carefully soldered a donated pin from another chip to the exposed stub. These were plastic encased chips. I never tried it with a ceramic package. I suppose you could take a very small diamond burr and a dremel to grind a bit of the package material away but it probably wouldn't be an easy task. When soldering the pin, I actually had better luck with a higher than normal heat on the iron and a very fine tip installed. I used a Hakko 936 with a new 900M-T1 tip. Probably not proper technique but it worked for me. That way I seemed to get in and out faster with minimal heat transfer into the chip. YMMV of course. James -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jul 22 13:01:30 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repairing IC pins Message-ID: <200507221801.LAA04557@clulw009.amd.com> Hi What kind of package are we talking about? Plastic can be cut back by about 1/32" to allow connecting a pin from a scrap IC. ceramic is a little tougher. If the pin is one of those iron cored pins, you may not be able to get deep enough to get a non-corroded surface to solder to. Even ceramics can be carefully solders to and a small amount of hard epoxy applied to keep the strain off the solder joint that will be quite small ( epoxy like JB Weld is hard most clear epoxies are too flexible ). I have a number of RAM IC that are gradually failing because they have the iron cored pins. I guess these were cheaper but electrolysis between the plating and the iron rots them out from the inside making the pin very fragile. Dwight >From: "Philip Pemberton" > >Hi folks, > Does anyone know of a way to repair IC pins that have been broken off at >the point where they leave the IC casing? I've got a couple of chips with >missing pins here and was just wondering if it was possible... > >Thanks. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >... Anything not nailed down is a cat's toy > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 22 13:03:32 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:03:32 -0700 Subject: Jorway and LeCroy CAMAC manuals Message-ID: <62fd052209f9aba59923b9b42f3c2597@bitsavers.org> John's posting about the Unibus interface reminded me that something to watch for are the card and interface manuals for CAMAC crates. CAMAC was very popular in physics labs. There are lots of modules and crates around, but, as usual, no one saved the manuals. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 13:13:55 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:13:55 -0500 Subject: Jorway and LeCroy CAMAC manuals In-Reply-To: <62fd052209f9aba59923b9b42f3c2597@bitsavers.org> References: <62fd052209f9aba59923b9b42f3c2597@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 7/22/05, Al Kossow wrote: > John's posting about the Unibus interface reminded me > that something to watch for are the card and interface > manuals for CAMAC crates. CAMAC was very popular in > physics labs. There are lots of modules and crates > around, but, as usual, no one saved the manuals. We have lots of CAMAC crates at the Physics department, but I've never seen a manual. :-( -ethan From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jul 22 13:28:43 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:28:43 -0400 Subject: Repairing IC pins References: <200507221801.LAA04557@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <17121.15067.497260.112880@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: Dwight> ... I have a number of RAM IC that are Dwight> gradually failing because they have the iron cored pins. I Dwight> guess these were cheaper ... Probably not. Chances are the pin is actually made of Kovar or some other oddball alloy like that. Those aren't cheap at all. Their purpose in life is to match the thermal coefficient of expansion of the ceramic, so fast temperature cycles don't break the hermetic seal. This came out of vacuum tube technology, but it applies to hermetic semiconductors, too. I don't believe that Kovar can be soldered, but it probably can be brazed (with nickel?). Copper would work quite poorly in that application, because the t.c.e. of copper is far higher than that of any glass or ceramic. There are ways around that (see John Strong, "Procedures in Experimental Physics", a brilliant book) but they aren't all that appropriate for IC packaging. paul From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Jul 22 13:32:59 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:32:59 +0100 Subject: Repairing IC pins In-Reply-To: <200507221801.LAA04557@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200507221801.LAA04557@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: In message <200507221801.LAA04557 at clulw009.amd.com> "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > What kind of package are we talking about? PLCC plastic. > Plastic can be cut back by about 1/32" to allow connecting > a pin from a scrap IC. ceramic is a little tougher. Yeah, I tried that - Dremel with a micro-drill bit. Shame the bloody thing skittered off and ripped the lead completely out of the plastic :( > If the > pin is one of those iron cored pins, Copper-cored, tin-plated on an AMD Am29F040. No big deal - it was mangled in shipping and the distributor has agreed to send a replacement out. Just a bit annoying when all the hardware is ready to go and is only being held up by a Flash ROM :-/ > I have a number of RAM IC that are gradually failing because > they have the iron cored pins. I guess these were cheaper > but electrolysis between the plating and the iron rots them > out from the inside making the pin very fragile. Eep. Thankfully most of the ICs I've dealt with had SnPb-plated Cu pins (or Sn-plated Cu). Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Become a programmer and never see the world!! From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Jul 22 14:29:23 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:29:23 -0400 (edt) Subject: Of rats and the Commodore 64... Message-ID: <200507221929.PAA15374@wordstock.com> Here are a few pictures of a Commodore 64 still in use today: http://madscientistroom.org/drupal/Retro/C64/Rats Someonle else posted recently about Spam + classic computing... I just received some spam that said "Rats drown in WordStar"... That's all I see of the message in elm. Cheers, Bryan From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Jul 22 14:43:29 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Of rats and the Commodore 64... In-Reply-To: <200507221929.PAA15374@wordstock.com> References: <200507221929.PAA15374@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > Here are a few pictures of a Commodore 64 still in use today: > > http://madscientistroom.org/drupal/Retro/C64/Rats > > Someonle else posted recently about Spam + classic computing... I just > received some spam that said "Rats drown in WordStar"... That's all I > see of the message in elm. > > Cheers, > > Bryan > Which, interestingly enough, is a palindrome... Peter Wallace From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Jul 22 14:49:13 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:49:13 -0700 Subject: 11/34a help In-Reply-To: <227484815e1491a7d0cda14d9dde5639@bitsavers.org> References: <227484815e1491a7d0cda14d9dde5639@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 10:43 AM -0700 7/22/05, Al Kossow wrote: > > Jorway Model 411 CAMAC? Looks like a Massbus cable going into it. > >That would be a CAMAC (IEEE 585) crate to Unibus interface. > >CAMAC docs are much less common than the modules or interfaces, unfortunately. Thanks Al. I will take and post some pictures when I get a chance so we at least have some reference pics. John From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Jul 22 14:50:46 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:50:46 -0700 Subject: Jorway and LeCroy CAMAC manuals In-Reply-To: <62fd052209f9aba59923b9b42f3c2597@bitsavers.org> References: <62fd052209f9aba59923b9b42f3c2597@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 11:03 AM -0700 7/22/05, Al Kossow wrote: >John's posting about the Unibus interface reminded me >that something to watch for are the card and interface >manuals for CAMAC crates. CAMAC was very popular in >physics labs. There are lots of modules and crates >around, but, as usual, no one saved the manuals. And indeed this machine appears to have been used in the High Energy Physics lab here at Caltech at one point. [It was actually found in a pile of dirt in the basement of one of the dorms.] John From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jul 22 15:15:03 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repairing IC pins Message-ID: <200507222015.NAA04598@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Paul Koning" > >>>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: > > Dwight> ... I have a number of RAM IC that are > Dwight> gradually failing because they have the iron cored pins. I > Dwight> guess these were cheaper ... > >Probably not. Chances are the pin is actually made of Kovar or some Hi Paul No, these are made with iron. It clings solidly to a magnet. The cores are definitely form one of the iron oxides. These are on plastic and not ceramic packages. Not many materials cling that well to a magnet, other than iron that I know of. Dwight From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jul 22 15:21:58 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:21:58 -0400 Subject: Repairing IC pins Message-ID: <20050722202157.WFYL21628.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Hi folks, > Does anyone know of a way to repair IC pins that have been broken off at >the point where they leave the IC casing? I've got a couple of chips with >missing pins here and was just wondering if it was possible... In a couple of cases where I've absolutely had to repair an IC with a pin broken off right at the casing, I have done the following: Scrape the plastic down a bit with a detail knife to expose slightly more metal. Tin the exposed metal without applying heat for too long ... Put the IC in the socket, and place a suitable "new" pin, or even a piece of suitably sized wire into the socket in place of the missing pin, cut it to just slightly more than meet the exposed metal. Using suitable tiny tools, bend it over to touch the tinned metal. It is important that it be in the right place without needing force to hold it there. Tack it into place with a quick application of iron and solder. Such a repair has little mechanical strength, which is why you do it "in place" - If you ever have to remove the chip again, chances are the replaced pin will break off at the solder joint. I also wouldn't trust it for high longevity in a rough environment (or even a normal one), although I have had a couple such repairs running for quite some time, allowing machines to be run which would otherwise be "waiting on parts" ... Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jul 22 15:28:59 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:28:59 -0400 Subject: Repairing IC pins References: <200507222015.NAA04598@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <17121.22283.541404.693009@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: >> From: "Paul Koning" >> >>>>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: >> Dwight> ... I have a number of RAM IC that are gradually failing Dwight> because they have the iron cored pins. I guess these were Dwight> cheaper ... >> Probably not. Chances are the pin is actually made of Kovar or >> some Dwight> Hi Paul No, these are made with iron. It clings solidly to a Dwight> magnet. The cores are definitely form one of the iron oxides. Dwight> These are on plastic and not ceramic packages. Not many Dwight> materials cling that well to a magnet, other than iron that I Dwight> know of. Actually, alloys of iron, or nickel, or cobalt all cling to magnets, and Kovar is definitely one of those. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jul 22 15:32:03 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:32:03 -0400 Subject: Repairing IC pins References: <200507222015.NAA04598@clulw009.amd.com> <17121.22283.541404.693009@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17121.22467.208138.231286@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Paul" == Paul Koning writes: >>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: >>> From: "Paul Koning" >>> >>>>>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: >>> Dwight> ... I have a number of RAM IC that are gradually failing Dwight> because they have the iron cored pins. I guess these were Dwight> cheaper ... >>> Probably not. Chances are the pin is actually made of Kovar or >>> some Dwight> Hi Paul No, these are made with iron. It clings solidly to a Dwight> magnet. The cores are definitely form one of the iron oxides. Dwight> These are on plastic and not ceramic packages. Not many Dwight> materials cling that well to a magnet, other than iron that I Dwight> know of. Paul> Actually, alloys of iron, or nickel, or cobalt all cling to Paul> magnets, and Kovar is definitely one of those. Come to think of it, there are two classic alloys for metal/glass (pyrex type) or metal/ceramic seals: Kovar and Fernico. Pick apart that second one into syllables and you can see it has three reasons to stick to magnets... :-) paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 22 15:26:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:26:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/34a help In-Reply-To: from "John A. Dundas III" at Jul 22, 5 09:24:29 am Message-ID: > Jorway Model 411 CAMAC? Looks like a Massbus cable going into it. CAMAC = Computer Assisted Measurement And Control (or something similar). It's a bust standard used particulalry for particle physics instrumentation. The unit you have is probably a controller. The cable is unlikely to be Massbus, it might well be the Unibus signals, though. You put that module at one end of a CAMAC crate (the backplane is not just pin-pin wired, BTW), and put other CAMAC modules in the remaining slots. > ACT quad board that appears to be 4 serial ports; it has 4x40-pin > Bergs that sound link a Quadralink (?) that was mentioned recently on > the list. FWIW, the single DEC serial cards (DL11) for Unibus machines used 40 pin Bergs for the interface cable connector. My first guess, if this is a quad serial card, is that the connectors on that board have the same pinout. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 22 15:29:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:29:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Repairing IC pins In-Reply-To: from "Philip Pemberton" at Jul 22, 5 06:36:19 pm Message-ID: > > Hi folks, > Does anyone know of a way to repair IC pins that have been broken off at > the point where they leave the IC casing? I've got a couple of chips with > missing pins here and was just wondering if it was possible... I've had some success on plastic-packaged ICs by : Cust/scrape the plastic round the broken pin Put the chip into a turned pin socket Put a piece of bare wire into the empty hole in the socket. Cut it off just above the edge of the metal from the broken off pin. Try to solder the wire to the edge of the metal. Put the whole thing (includign the turned-pin socket) into another turned-pin socket soldered to the PCB. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 22 15:22:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:22:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Decitek Reader and Remix punch In-Reply-To: <17121.6941.24056.700241@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Jul 22, 5 12:13:17 pm Message-ID: > Assuming that things obey the standard, which pre-PC stuff usually > did, you can tell from the connector gender whether you need a null > modem or not. If the connector is DB-25 male, use a null modem cable; > if female, use a straight through (DTE to DCE) cable. The former is > what I would expect, but surprises happen... I find one of those little in-line RS232 testers very useful for this. Just plug the appropriate end into the connector and see whether it drives pin 2 or pin 3. You can also see what, if any, handshake lines it drives. And if you get a crazy pattern of lights, it's a good bet it wasn't an RS232 device in the first place. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 22 16:21:27 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Linoterm/Linotype (was: Apple? In-Reply-To: <0q64v3e619.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <17119.58083.197271.133880@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17119.60721.756000.335292@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0q64v3e619.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20050722141633.L78872@shell.lmi.net> > among others. They merged with Hell, a printing press maker, We added our own second SA800 drive to a Merganthaler. After the threats that they made to us, I was not at all surprised to see them goto Hell. Remember the Rochester Dynatyper and the KGS-80? Those were the second fastest way that data was transferred into that machine. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 22 16:24:53 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II vs Apple II+ In-Reply-To: <42E08C7D.A983D653@rain.org> References: <42E08C7D.A983D653@rain.org> Message-ID: <20050722142305.N78872@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > machines? If I indeed have the Apple II, then all I am looking for will > be the Bell & Howell Black Apple II+ to complete the Apple II series of > machines through the Apple //e enhanced. COMPLETE?? perhaps someone could list all of the motherboard changes and keyboard variants From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 22 16:36:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Of rats and the Commodore 64... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > > > > > Here are a few pictures of a Commodore 64 still in use today: > > > > http://madscientistroom.org/drupal/Retro/C64/Rats > > > > Someonle else posted recently about Spam + classic computing... I just > > received some spam that said "Rats drown in WordStar"... That's all I > > see of the message in elm. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Bryan > > > > Which, interestingly enough, is a palindrome... Sounds like some sort of coded Al Qaeda message to me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jul 22 16:51:49 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:51:49 -0500 Subject: Of rats and the Commodore 64... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050722165029.055f2a08@mail> At 04:36 PM 7/22/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Sounds like some sort of coded Al Qaeda message to me. There's a new provision of the renewed Patriot Act that says you're a terrorist if you use a non-DRM-protected CPU to decode encrypted messages like palindromes. In other words, antique computers are now outlawed as terrorist devices. Especially if you have a funny name. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 22 17:09:06 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050722150149.W78872@shell.lmi.net> > On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > Both of those were still in beige plastic cases, though; > > I've never seen one mounted inside something else. Unless > > you count the II's on a card for the Mac LC, of course. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Remember that lots of Apple ][ clones appeared in very interesting and > different cases. The first Apple that I ever had was a used, "repaired", "converted", "euro" ][ motherboard that somebody had stuck in a discarded PROCessor TechnOLOGY Sol case, with an external RCA membrane keyboard! I had a lot of difficulties with it until I started replacing sockets on it with Augat "machined pin" sockets. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Fri Jul 22 17:09:37 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Of rats and the Commodore 64... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050722165029.055f2a08@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050722165029.055f2a08@mail> Message-ID: <50734.65.6.17.165.1122070177.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> On Fri, July 22, 2005 2:51 pm, John Foust said: > At 04:36 PM 7/22/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>Sounds like some sort of coded Al Qaeda message to me. > > There's a new provision of the renewed Patriot Act that says > you're a terrorist if you use a non-DRM-protected CPU to > decode encrypted messages like palindromes. In other words, > antique computers are now outlawed as terrorist devices. > Especially if you have a funny name. Oh man, I'm in trouble. My real name is Groucho Cleese. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 22 17:10:55 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II vs Apple II+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050722150943.V78872@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Compare the motherboards. The earliest Apple ]['s will have a small > breadboarding area underneath the keyboard at the front of the MB. You > also want to check the revision on the board. I don't know off-hand the > revisions that help you determine what is what but that info is available > online. > > Keep in mind that many Apple ]['s were upgraded over the years with ][+ > motherboards. Hopefully yours is a straight ][. Howzbout just checking whether it has "Integer BASIC" v "Applesoft"? From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Fri Jul 22 17:11:24 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:11:24 -0500 Subject: Repairing IC pins In-Reply-To: <20050722202157.WFYL21628.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050722202157.WFYL21628.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <42E16F0C.1030100@vzavenue.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: > >Such a repair has little mechanical strength, which is why you do it "in >place" - If you ever have to remove the chip again, chances are the replaced >pin will break off at the solder joint. I also wouldn't trust it for high >longevity in a rough environment (or even a normal one), although I have had >a couple such repairs running for quite some time, allowing machines to be >run which would otherwise be "waiting on parts" ... > >Regards, > > One of my temporary BIOS chip repairs is on a Tandy 1000. The pin broke when I was installing a SmartWatch module. That was in 1986. It's still running with the same repair today. I just ordered a new DS chip (SmartWatch) from Maxim. I get to test the mechanical strength of my repair. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From James at jdfogg.com Fri Jul 22 17:17:46 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:17:46 -0400 Subject: Found in a spam... (ontopic, really!!!) Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045C20@sbs.jdfogg.com> > "Someday we'll discover a dinosaur nest in Arizona and right > next to the fossil will be a stone-etched PRIMOS manual. It > was probably PRIMOS that caused the dinosaurs to die off in > the first place. -- Ari Rapkin's uvacs quotes" I worked for Pr1me for a few years. I rather like PRIMOS. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 22 17:18:25 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:18:25 -0400 Subject: I'm King of the DSD-440s! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050722181825.00994320@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I went to Melbourne today to pickup some DEC rack slides for Jay. I didn't find much at the first place that I stopped except a pile of HP stuff. I called jay to see if he was interested in any of it and was just poking around while I was talking to him on the phone. THEN I looked over in a basket of scrap and spotted two DSD-440s! I grabbed both of them of course. Next I headed to the place that had the rack slides. When I got there I spotted this . I thought it was some kind of DEC floppy drive so I wasn't too excited till I looked in the back ans saw this . Wahoo! Another DSD-440! I brought all three home of course. That makes SIX sitting in my living room! (Yeah, the OL isn't too happy!) I picked up a CRAP LOAD of DEC rack slides. Yeah, Jay, you'll be happy . I also spotted this . Warning there are some BIG pictures there. I wanted to capture as much detail as possible. It's a PDP-11/44 LOADED with cards and with a MPI 9448 cartridge drive and it >had< a DSD-440 drive it as well. I also captured these two beauties . Joe From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 17:24:52 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:24:52 -0500 Subject: I'm King of the DSD-440s! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050722181825.00994320@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050722181825.00994320@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 7/22/05, Joe R. wrote: > THEN I looked over in a basket of scrap and spotted two DSD-440s! I grabbed both of > them of course... Nice. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jul 22 17:25:27 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:25:27 -0600 Subject: Of rats and the Commodore 64... In-Reply-To: <50734.65.6.17.165.1122070177.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050722165029.055f2a08@mail> <50734.65.6.17.165.1122070177.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> Message-ID: <42E17257.1000700@jetnet.ab.ca> Jeff Davis wrote: >>Especially if you have a funny name. > > > Oh man, I'm in trouble. My real name is Groucho Cleese. But nobody will can find you since you have the funny nose and glasses. :) From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Jul 22 17:39:06 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:39:06 +0100 Subject: Of rats and the Commodore 64... References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050722165029.055f2a08@mail><50734.65.6.17.165.1122070177.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> <42E17257.1000700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <015701c58f0e$2bb196a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "woodelf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 11:25 PM Subject: Re: Of rats and the Commodore 64... > Jeff Davis wrote: > > >>Especially if you have a funny name. > > > > > > Oh man, I'm in trouble. My real name is Groucho Cleese. > But nobody will can find you since you have the funny nose > and glasses. :) > > Not to mention the walk, but then if you work for the ministry, you should be exempt for these silly rules....... Jim. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 22 17:30:38 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:30:38 -0400 Subject: Decitek Reader and Remix punch Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050722183038.00969310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:04 PM 7/22/05 -0400, you wrote: >Today I obtained a Genrad 1797 programming station. It consists of a PDP-8a, 3 RK05s, a Decitek paper tape reader, a Remix paper tape punch, and a Genrad interface unit. Also with the system is a DecWriter III and 3 RK05 16 sector packs, as well as an alignment pack. He threw in alignment pack? Nice! It's probably worth $300 by itself. > >I have not begun to study the system yet. Quick questions: > >1) The Decitek reader appears to have a serial (EIA / RS232) interface. Can someone point me to some documentaion on how this might be interfaced to a PDP-11? > >2) Same question as #1, but for the Remix paper tape punch Can you see what cards they're connected to? > >3) What were these GenRad programming stations used for? They were very big, very expensive and very sophistaced circuit card test stations. I looked at one at Thom's and it was far larger than your complete PDP-8. > >4) What is the purpose of the GenRad 1795-3010 interface unit? Probably a TTL interface. Unfortunately I didn't keep any of the GR docs. There were just too many of them and I would have had to leave some^H^H^H^H MORE of the DEC stuff to bring them. I have some info for you about the RK-05s in Melbourne. I'll e-mail you directly about them. Joe > >BTW, the system looks to be in good condition and was said to be running before it was decomssioned just a few months ago. Once I get a 30A 4-prong receptacle installed for it, I'll fire it up and see what it's all about. There is a boot pack for it. > >Any help or pointers on where to find information on the Decitek reader, Remix punch, and GenRad equipment in general would be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks, >Ashley > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 22 17:38:21 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:38:21 -0400 Subject: Repairing IC pins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050722183821.00991cf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:36 PM 7/22/05 +0100, you wrote: >Hi folks, > Does anyone know of a way to repair IC pins that have been broken off at >the point where they leave the IC casing? I've got a couple of chips with >missing pins here and was just wondering if it was possible... Yes. it's possible but you need a GOOD termperature controlled soldering iron and GOOD solder. I use the 2% silver solder from Kester. It has a low melting point so you won't burn up the IC. I successfully resoldered the legs to one of the unobtanium ICs on Mike H's VIP. Since it was a socketed IC and Mike wanted to keep it that way I soldered it in a GOOD IC socket that used the turned and gold plated sockets/wire wrap pins. I cut the WW pins to the same length that the IC pins should be and I used the cut off pins to replace the missing IC legs. The IC is permanently soldered into the socket but the entire socket and IC can get unplugged from the orginal socket. Joe > >Thanks. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >... Anything not nailed down is a cat's toy > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 22 21:38:21 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:38:21 -0400 Subject: Repairing IC pins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050722223821.00a82e40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:36 PM 7/22/05 +0100, you wrote: >Hi folks, > Does anyone know of a way to repair IC pins that have been broken off at >the point where they leave the IC casing? I've got a couple of chips with >missing pins here and was just wondering if it was possible... Yes. it's possible but you need a GOOD termperature controlled soldering iron and GOOD solder. I use the 2% silver solder from Kester. It has a low melting point so you won't burn up the IC. I successfully resoldered the legs to one of the unobtanium ICs on Mike H's VIP. Since it was a socketed IC and Mike wanted to keep it that way I soldered it in a GOOD IC socket that used the turned and gold plated sockets/wire wrap pins. I cut the WW pins to the same length that the IC pins should be and I used the cut off pins to replace the missing IC legs. The IC is permanently soldered into the socket but the entire socket and IC can get unplugged from the orginal socket. Joe > >Thanks. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >... Anything not nailed down is a cat's toy > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 22 17:45:19 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:45:19 -0400 Subject: Of rats and the Commodore 64... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050722165029.055f2a08@mail> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050722184519.0096ceb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:51 PM 7/22/05 -0500, John wrote: >At 04:36 PM 7/22/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>Sounds like some sort of coded Al Qaeda message to me. > >There's a new provision of the renewed Patriot Act that says >you're a terrorist if you use a non-DRM-protected CPU to >decode encrypted messages like palindromes. In other words, >antique computers are now outlawed as terrorist devices. >Especially if you have a funny name. Oh, oh! Sellam's in trouble! AGAIN! Joe :-) From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 22 17:52:51 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:52:51 -0500 Subject: PRIMOS (was Re: Found in a spam... (ontopic, really!!!) References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045C20@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <00e001c58f10$16f76d50$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> James wrote... > I worked for Pr1me for a few years. I rather like PRIMOS. Ya know, I gotta say of all the OS's I've worked on, PRIMOS was one of my favorites. Love that OS! I still have a well used System Subroutines Reference Manual, a PR1ME 50-series technical manual, and a few others. I guess I'm saving them on the offhand chance that someday I'll acquire a running PR1ME system :> James - did you know people in the St. Louis Pr1me office? The folks I knew were Rose Huber, Bob Rowe, Jon Kristofferson, Joe Condraci. Jay From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 22 18:05:00 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hell In-Reply-To: <0q64v3e619.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <17119.58083.197271.133880@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17119.60721.756000.335292@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0q64v3e619.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20050722160223.O78872@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > some of the original postscript fonts were licensed from > them by adobe; they seem to own helvetica, optima, and palatino > among others. They merged with Hell, a printing press maker, > around 1990. Today they exist as a font vendor, owned by Heidelberg > (probably the world's foremost printing press maker). They actually do not own the FONTS (or typefaces) but they own (trademark) the NAMES "Helvetica", "Times Roman", etc. Anybody can make a similar, or even copy, of the font, but they have to pay to use the name. (Think "Arial") From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 22 18:08:04 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:08:04 +0000 Subject: PRIMOS (was Re: Found in a spam... (ontopic, really!!!) In-Reply-To: <00e001c58f10$16f76d50$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045C20@sbs.jdfogg.com> <00e001c58f10$16f76d50$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1122073684.7213.234.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-22 at 17:52 -0500, Jay West wrote: > James wrote... > > I worked for Pr1me for a few years. I rather like PRIMOS. > Ya know, I gotta say of all the OS's I've worked on, PRIMOS was one of my > favorites. Love that OS! > > I still have a well used System Subroutines Reference Manual, a PR1ME > 50-series technical manual, and a few others. I guess I'm saving them on the > offhand chance that someday I'll acquire a running PR1ME system :> Has anyone archived PRIMOS install media (for any of their machines)? PR1MEs themselves are hard enough to come by, but OS tapes seem to have totally vanished... cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 22 18:02:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: <20050722150149.W78872@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > The first Apple that I ever had was a used, "repaired", > "converted", "euro" ][ motherboard that somebody had stuck > in a discarded PROCessor TechnOLOGY Sol case, > with an external RCA membrane keyboard! Wow, what an ultimate kludge! I love it! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wacarder at earthlink.net Fri Jul 22 18:10:22 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:10:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP 11/35 front panel plexi wanted Message-ID: <20409693.1122073822660.JavaMail.root@wamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Does anyone have a good front panel plexi for a PDP-11/35 21" chassis? I recently acquired an 11/35 with a blue front panel. Today I did a minor amount of tinkering and got this 11/35 up and running, booting RT11, XXDP+, and RSTS/E from RL02 packs. Now I want to switch out the front panel so that it will look like the standard 11/35. I have a spare front panel plexi for a 21" chassis, but it says 11/40. I also have a spare 11/35 front panel plexi, but it is for the 10 1/2" chassis. Is there anyone out there who would like to trade me a 21" chassis 11/35 plexi for my 10 1/2" 11/35 plexi? The keyhole is in a different position on these two varieties of front panel. If anyone has a PDP-11/35 front panel plexi for a 21" chassis they would like to sell or trade, please contact me off-list at wacarder at usit.net. Thanks, Ashley From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 22 18:18:40 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:18:40 -0500 Subject: PRIMOS (was Re: Found in a spam... (ontopic, really!!!) References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045C20@sbs.jdfogg.com><00e001c58f10$16f76d50$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <1122073684.7213.234.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <012501c58f13$bdfcf770$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jules wrote.... > Has anyone archived PRIMOS install media (for any of their machines)? > PR1MEs themselves are hard enough to come by, but OS tapes seem to have > totally vanished... Hope so... I know several ex-Prime employees, still have lunch with a few frequently and they say they have tapes.... Jay From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 22 18:13:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Of rats and the Commodore 64... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050722184519.0096ceb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Joe R. wrote: > At 04:51 PM 7/22/05 -0500, John wrote: > >At 04:36 PM 7/22/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >>Sounds like some sort of coded Al Qaeda message to me. > > > >There's a new provision of the renewed Patriot Act that says > >you're a terrorist if you use a non-DRM-protected CPU to > >decode encrypted messages like palindromes. In other words, > >antique computers are now outlawed as terrorist devices. > >Especially if you have a funny name. > > Oh, oh! Sellam's in trouble! AGAIN! I remain an innocent bystander for now but at the rate that our rights are being stripped away I expect soon to be deemed an enemy combatant by default. Enjoy your "freedom". -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 22 18:43:20 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:43:20 -0700 Subject: PRIMOS (was Re: Found in a spam... (ontopic, really!!!) Message-ID: <99f09de5ff40f5296618aed3906af244@bitsavers.org> > Has anyone archived PRIMOS install media (for any of their machines)? yes. A little bird told me a few weeks ago about someone trying to get PRIMOS running in simulation. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 22 18:45:34 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:45:34 -0700 Subject: PRIMOS (was Re: Found in a spam... (ontopic, really!!!) Message-ID: <5580dfb9a4fb126ad09562f131ed471c@bitsavers.org> > Has anyone archived PRIMOS install media (for any of their machines)? > PR1MEs themselves are hard enough to come by, but OS tapes seem to have > totally vanished... Hope so... I know several ex-Prime employees, still have lunch with a few frequently and they say they have tapes.... -- If you have your drive going, these would be a good thing to archive. Any tech docs on the hardware would help the guy working on the simulator, also. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Jul 22 18:56:24 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 16:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Varisystems, Compugraphic Message-ID: <20050722235624.86170.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> The gentlemen who sold me the classic PDP-8 recently told me that he had worked in the early 70's at an outfit called Varisystems. They made dedicated typesetting systems, one of which he had installed to replace the PDP-8. He showed me a few bits and pieces that he had saved, including a wire-wrapped TTL CPU, a core stack, and a removable (technician-only) diagnostic panel. From the panel, I concluded that it was most likely a single accumulator machine. Has anyone else seen one of these machines or know any more about them? There was also an auction on eBay recently of some spare parts for a Compugraphics typesetter that indicated that it too was based on a proprietary CPU. The machine in question was from the late 60's. I had never heard of them until the 80's, when they were building systems around the PERQ (!!) and funding some development work at CMU. --Bill From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 22 19:01:23 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:01:23 -0400 Subject: Varisystems, Compugraphic In-Reply-To: <20050722235624.86170.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050722200123.00a3bb80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I used to have a Compugraphics machine. IIRC it was a big black box and had an 8085 CPU. I seem to remember that it dated from 1985. Joe At 04:56 PM 7/22/05 -0700, you wrote: >The gentlemen who sold me the classic PDP-8 recently >told me that he had worked in the early 70's at an >outfit called Varisystems. They made dedicated >typesetting systems, one of which he had installed to >replace the PDP-8. He showed me a few bits and pieces >that he had saved, including a wire-wrapped TTL CPU, a >core stack, and a removable (technician-only) >diagnostic panel. From the panel, I concluded that it >was most likely a single accumulator machine. Has >anyone else seen one of these machines or know any >more about them? > >There was also an auction on eBay recently of some >spare parts for a Compugraphics typesetter that >indicated that it too was based on a proprietary CPU. >The machine in question was from the late 60's. I had >never heard of them until the 80's, when they were >building systems around the PERQ (!!) and funding some >development work at CMU. > >--Bill > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 22 19:29:49 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:29:49 -0500 Subject: PRIMOS (was Re: Found in a spam... (ontopic, really!!!) References: <5580dfb9a4fb126ad09562f131ed471c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000a01c58f1d$a2f3fe10$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Al wrote.... > If you have your drive going, these would be a good thing to archive. Um... I have no pr1me hardware at all :\ No drives for 'em either. > Any tech docs on the hardware would help the guy working on the simulator, > also. Got the tech manual, perhaps the prime assembler (PAL) manual too. Give me email address to the guy working on the simulator. Jay From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 22 19:32:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Pioneer Anomaly (fwd) Message-ID: Here's a response I received today from the Pioneer Anomaly team, the folks who have the data tapes from the Pioneer missions that were at risk of being lost: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:08:24 -0700 From: Bruce Betts To: Vintage Computer Festival Subject: re: The Pioneer Anomaly Hi, Thanks to preliminary contributions from members, the Pioneer Anomaly team have been able to confirm that data can be retrieved successfully from the old data tapes using the existing machine at JPL. We greatly appreciate your offer, but don't think it will be necessary as the tests have been successful so far. We will keep you in mind however and I will pass your information along to the team. We have also established a two phase plan with the team. Phase 1 is underway now: data recovery and validation, which will take several months of tedious work. Phase 2 will be a period of intensive data analysis to carefully search for the source of the anomaly. Thank you for your interest. FYI, more information on the Pioneer Anomaly and things related to our Pioneer Anomaly special appeal can be found at: http://planetary.org/news/2005/pioneer_anomaly_faq.html Bruce Betts Bruce Betts, Ph.D. Director of Projects The Planetary Society, Ph:626-793-5100 The Planetary Society is the largest space interest group on Earth. The Society is non-profit and non-governmental. See http://planetary.org for more information. --- -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 22 19:42:38 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050722173533.H78872@shell.lmi.net> > > The first Apple that I ever had was a used, "repaired", > > "converted", "euro" ][ motherboard that somebody had stuck > > in a discarded PROCessor TechnOLOGY Sol case, > > with an external RCA membrane keyboard! On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Wow, what an ultimate kludge! I love it! Nicest case that I've ever had - certainly makes Northstar look like plywood :-) The RCA keyboard had a lousy feel, but it could withstand a lot of abuse (splashproof?) The motherboard was pretty bad. Corroded sockets, and LOTS of cold solder joints. Wires all over the place. Some previous owner had apparently carefully followed "instructions" for converting a Euro board, converting to different (EP)ROM chips, etc., but was even worse at soldering than I am. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 22 20:18:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: <20050722173533.H78872@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > The first Apple that I ever had was a used, "repaired", > > > "converted", "euro" ][ motherboard that somebody had stuck > > > in a discarded PROCessor TechnOLOGY Sol case, > > > with an external RCA membrane keyboard! > > On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Wow, what an ultimate kludge! I love it! > > Nicest case that I've ever had - certainly makes Northstar look like > plywood :-) > > The RCA keyboard had a lousy feel, but it could withstand a lot of abuse > (splashproof?) > > The motherboard was pretty bad. Corroded sockets, and LOTS of cold > solder joints. Wires all over the place. Some previous owner had > apparently carefully followed "instructions" for converting a Euro > board, converting to different (EP)ROM chips, etc., > but was even worse at soldering than I am. So whatever happened to this Franken-][? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 22 20:37:20 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050722183335.W78872@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > So whatever happened to this Franken-][? I gave it to Frank Hatfield almost 20 years ago; no idea who got it when he died. One of the first computers that I regret having parted with. If I had it now, it would be a difficult choice of whether to preserve it as an example of our idiocy in those days; or take it apart, give the case to a Sol person, and give the motherboard to somebody across the pond who would convert it back into a Euro board. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 22 20:53:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: <20050722183335.W78872@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > If I had it now, it would be a difficult choice of whether to preserve > it as an example of our idiocy in those days; or take it apart, give the > case to a Sol person, and give the motherboard to somebody across the > pond who would convert it back into a Euro board. It would be something you'd DEFINITELY want to keep together. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From marvin at rain.org Fri Jul 22 21:12:37 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:12:37 -0700 Subject: Apple II vs Apple II+ Message-ID: <42E1A795.5BFCF192@rain.org> It sounds like I need to clarify :). The models I have are the Apple II (?, this is what started this thread), Apple II+, Apple //c, Apple //c+, Apple //e, Apple //e enhanced, Apple 3, Lisa 2, Mac 128, Mac 512, and the Mac Plus. This is where I intend to stop the Apple stuff and I've gotten rid of most of the others. I tend not to keep track of the PC board revisions. I guess from a historical perspective, that would be something worth documenting. But I am not an Apple person and thus not the person to do it. At any rate, I'll be downsizing the extra Apple computers on VCM as I continue to make room to play with the stuff *I* want to play with! > From: Fred Cisin > On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > machines? If I indeed have the Apple II, then all I am looking for will > > be the Bell & Howell Black Apple II+ to complete the Apple II series of > > machines through the Apple //e enhanced. > > COMPLETE?? > perhaps someone could list all of the motherboard changes and keyboard > variants From James at jdfogg.com Fri Jul 22 21:21:15 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:21:15 -0400 Subject: PRIMOS (was Re: Found in a spam... (ontopic, really!!!) Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045C21@sbs.jdfogg.com> >> -----Original Message----- >> James wrote... >> I worked for Pr1me for a few years. I rather like PRIMOS. > > Ya know, I gotta say of all the OS's I've worked on, PRIMOS > was one of my favorites. Love that OS! > > I still have a well used System Subroutines Reference Manual, > a PR1ME 50-series technical manual, and a few others. I guess > I'm saving them on the offhand chance that someday I'll > acquire a running PR1ME system :> > > James - did you know people in the St. Louis Pr1me office? > The folks I knew were Rose Huber, Bob Rowe, Jon > Kristofferson, Joe Condraci. I worked as a manufacturing engineer in Framingham Massachusetts. I checked/tested/fixed ECO's and did QA on CPU boards. It was one of my first (paid) computer jobs while I was still in college. I only knew some manufacturing people, and I'm sure I don't remember their names. I'm not even sure what products I worked on since we used project names like Cheetah and Tiger (the two I remember). ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From rcini at optonline.net Fri Jul 22 21:57:54 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:57:54 -0400 Subject: Weird S100 memory board problem Message-ID: <002701c58f32$52d2f160$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I have a CompuPro/Godbout RAM14 (16kx8) board, arranged in 4 banks of 4k starting at 0. I ran a memory test program on it and it shows address 0x3000 as failing; when you look at data written, it appears that BIT 0 is bad. So, I ordered some 2147 chips from JDR and swapped the bad chip. It still fails the same bit. So, I swapped it with another chip in the row, and it fails again. It passes at address 1000 and 2000, so it can't be an address bit buffer chip. Any ideas? Where should I look next? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jul 22 22:21:42 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:21:42 -0400 Subject: Weird S100 memory board problem Message-ID: <0IK2005IJ9C71QMA@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Weird S100 memory board problem > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:57:54 -0400 > To: CCTalk > >All: > > I have a CompuPro/Godbout RAM14 (16kx8) board, arranged in 4 banks >of 4k starting at 0. I ran a memory test program on it and it shows address >0x3000 as failing; when you look at data written, it appears that BIT 0 is >bad. > > So, I ordered some 2147 chips from JDR and swapped the bad chip. It >still fails the same bit. So, I swapped it with another chip in the row, and >it fails again. It passes at address 1000 and 2000, so it can't be an >address bit buffer chip. > > Any ideas? Where should I look next? Sounds like a data buffer problem either in the data in lines or data out lines. Or it could be the data in or out line for that bit is bad to the chip (socket or open trace). Allison Allison From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jul 22 22:33:21 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:33:21 -0500 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: <20050707214026.4ac19cf7.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050706194415.0cd68265.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050707214026.4ac19cf7.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42E1BA81.70209@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > EGA-Monochrome was very well > supported in a few essential apps like Microsoft Word for DOS, and it > also gave a MUCH better video resolution for Windows 3.0 on a 9-pin mono > monitor than a Hercules card. Huh? EGA mono is 640x350; Hercules is 720x348. You get more pixels with Hercules. > Running EGA-monochrome kept me from wasting my time playing games, since > there was none, nadda, no support at all for gameplaying type graphics > on EGA-mono. You didn't look hard enough ;-) There were at least 100 games of the adventure or strategy variety that I remember specifically supporting EGA 640x350 mono. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Jul 22 22:37:01 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:37:01 -0400 Subject: Weird S100 memory board problem In-Reply-To: <002701c58f32$52d2f160$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <002701c58f32$52d2f160$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <42E1BB5D.nailMQU11OT2B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Where should I look next? Is this one of those boards where all 4 banks can be independently mapped via jumpers or dipswitches? Do not pass go, do not assume that a jumper or dipswitch is conducting just because it looks installed or is closed. Ohm them all out. Other than that, time to check the address decoders etc. Tim. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jul 22 22:58:41 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:58:41 -0500 Subject: Apple I on ebay - this time it's for real. In-Reply-To: <20050722035831.90445.qmail@web40913.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050722035831.90445.qmail@web40913.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050722225841.3da8a1b8.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:58:31 -0700 (PDT) steven stengel wrote: > Only $20,000 - includes wooden box. > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5791473252&category=80075&rd=1 > > Same thing: > http://tinyurl.com/bb4dl > > I've got at least _half_ of that system, as I have what appears to be the exact model of Sanyo monitor pictured. Mine has a vintage asset sticker on it from Honeywell's "Res. Microprocessor Lab" in Minneapolis. I should build my BigBoard into a wooden case and stick that monitor on top of it. I could even use Apple wood, as one of the old trees in our orchard has died and there are a few big pieces of the trunk. Naw. It'd never have that 'L@@K! RARE Collectors Item' sheen to it. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jul 22 23:11:12 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:11:12 -0500 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: <42E1BA81.70209@oldskool.org> References: <20050706194415.0cd68265.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050707214026.4ac19cf7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <42E1BA81.70209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050722231112.311087c4.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:33:21 -0500 Jim Leonard wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > > EGA-Monochrome was very well > > supported in a few essential apps like Microsoft Word for DOS, and > > it also gave a MUCH better video resolution for Windows 3.0 on a > > 9-pin mono monitor than a Hercules card. > > Huh? EGA mono is 640x350; Hercules is 720x348. You get more pixels > with Hercules. > For whatever reason, the drivers for Windows 3.0 make for a MUCH nicer looking display with EGA monochrome than for a Hercules card. I can't say why, but I distinctly remember this as being the case. It might have more to do with the aspect ratio than the pixel count. From cc at corti-net.de Sat Jul 23 03:12:03 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:12:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Facit tape reader Message-ID: Hi, does anyone have the service manual for the Facit 4001 paper tape reader in electronic form? It's a dielectric reader with a speed of 1,000 chars/sec. Christian From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jul 23 07:48:57 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:48:57 -0400 Subject: Varisystems, Compugraphic In-Reply-To: <20050722235624.86170.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050722235624.86170.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42E23CB9.4010805@atarimuseum.com> William, Does he by chance have any photo's of the Compugraphic 7770? My grandparents used to run a microfilm and graphics company and they used to have this monster sized system that took up one room on their office, it was blue and black and I remember it being a Compugraphic 7770. Curt William Maddox wrote: >The gentlemen who sold me the classic PDP-8 recently >told me that he had worked in the early 70's at an >outfit called Varisystems. They made dedicated >typesetting systems, one of which he had installed to >replace the PDP-8. He showed me a few bits and pieces >that he had saved, including a wire-wrapped TTL CPU, a >core stack, and a removable (technician-only) >diagnostic panel. From the panel, I concluded that it >was most likely a single accumulator machine. Has >anyone else seen one of these machines or know any >more about them? > >There was also an auction on eBay recently of some >spare parts for a Compugraphics typesetter that >indicated that it too was based on a proprietary CPU. >The machine in question was from the late 60's. I had >never heard of them until the 80's, when they were >building systems around the PERQ (!!) and funding some >development work at CMU. > >--Bill > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 7/22/2005 From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Jul 23 08:26:05 2005 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:26:05 -0500 Subject: hardware debugging - history repeats itself Message-ID: <000901c58f8a$14587f10$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Just wanted to share a success story - During the last Chicago heat wave, our air conditioning stopped working. Nothing, furnace (we have those up north) fan worked fine and air was circulating, but no cooling at all. No response from the compressor. Supply and control voltages all checked out ok, thermostat worked, etc. Turned out to be an earwig (small insect) trapped in the contacts of the compressor controller. Removed said insect, cleaned up the contact points and we were cool. Shades of Grace Hopper and the Mark II moth! Jack From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Jul 23 09:28:17 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:28:17 -0400 Subject: Hell References: <17119.58083.197271.133880@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17119.60721.756000.335292@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0q64v3e619.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <20050722160223.O78872@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <17122.21505.69687.63333@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Fred" == Fred Cisin writes: Fred> On Fri, 22 Jul 2005, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: >> some of the original postscript fonts were licensed from them by >> adobe; they seem to own helvetica, optima, and palatino among >> others. They merged with Hell, a printing press maker, around >> 1990. Today they exist as a font vendor, owned by Heidelberg >> (probably the world's foremost printing press maker). Fred> They actually do not own the FONTS (or typefaces) but they own Fred> (trademark) the NAMES "Helvetica", "Times Roman", etc. Anybody Fred> can make a similar, or even copy, of the font, but they have to Fred> pay to use the name. (Think "Arial") True in the USA, not true elsewhere. The USA refuses to acknowledge the fact that artistry is involved in font design, and therefore refuses to allow copyright in fonts. As a result, font piracy is legal here -- you can buy "1000 fonts cheap" CDs. Those are generally made by copying the character outlines. Not the actual outline definitions typically -- but rather a re-tracing of the letter shape as drawn. The result is that those cheap ripoffs are actually quite visibly lower quality -- extraneous control points, sloppy outlines, and of course no "kerning" or "hinting". What China is in software and movies, the USA is in fonts... paul From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 23 09:37:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hardware debugging - history repeats itself In-Reply-To: <000901c58f8a$14587f10$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Jul 2005, Jack Rubin wrote: > Just wanted to share a success story - > > During the last Chicago heat wave, our air conditioning stopped working. > Nothing, furnace (we have those up north) fan worked fine and air was > circulating, but no cooling at all. No response from the compressor. Supply > and control voltages all checked out ok, thermostat worked, etc. > > Turned out to be an earwig (small insect) trapped in the contacts of the > compressor controller. Removed said insect, cleaned up the contact points > and we were cool. > > Shades of Grace Hopper and the Mark II moth! Those bastards are EVERYWHERE! ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Jul 23 15:31:53 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:31:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP 11/10 is working In-Reply-To: References: <64330.192.168.1.1.1121446266.squirrel@192.168.1.1> from "Ed" at Jul 15, 5 06:51:06 pm Message-ID: <11593.62.177.191.201.1122150713.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Well, the PDP 11/10 is working now. After repairing the PSU and making sure the voltages were within limits, I placed it back. Then I did vacuum the backplane and also cleaned the card edges with IPO. After inserting the modules, I entered the value '1000' in the SW and pressed 'load addr'. It nicely did show the address in the display. The I tried to load the value '777' into it, by pressing 'DEP'. Display didn't change, so I reloaded '1000' and see if there was a value, ... not! Weird, but possible the on of the G boards was faulty, or the core itself was in error. After removing the G110, I rechecked the jumpers, and sure I missed one, the board was set for the 2nd 8K area. So after soldering in the jumper it was replaced and the machine powered on again. This time I executed the same actions, and this time I got the entered value back. A little test program was then loaded to see if the processor did work at all, which it did (I used the 'cont' switch to see if a loop was executed). Only thing to remain is to make a little cable which needs to go into the berg connector at the back to interface with the on board uart for the console. After that I'm goint to add an RX02 interface card to see if I can load XXDP and perform some cpu diagnostics. Ed From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Jul 23 15:35:13 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:35:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PSU schematic of the PDP-11/05 (11/10) needed In-Reply-To: <64330.192.168.1.1.1121446266.squirrel@192.168.1.1> References: <64330.192.168.1.1.1121446266.squirrel@192.168.1.1> Message-ID: <14972.62.177.191.201.1122150913.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Forgot to add picture links, the pics can be found at www.groenenberg.net/tmp/pdp1110_1.jpg www.groenenberg.net/tmp/pdp1110_2.jpg www.groenenberg.net/tmp/pdp1110_3.jpg Ed From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Jul 23 15:35:31 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:35:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP11/10 pictures Message-ID: <20797.62.177.191.201.1122150931.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Forgot to add picture links, the pics can be found at www.groenenberg.net/tmp/pdp1110_1.jpg www.groenenberg.net/tmp/pdp1110_2.jpg www.groenenberg.net/tmp/pdp1110_3.jpg Ed From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 23 15:39:17 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:39:17 -0700 Subject: Scans of DECUS 12-bit SIG #1 to 27 available Message-ID: <276a0d24cc8600e35df19b8a4b22e737@bitsavers.org> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/decus/pdp8/12-bit_SIG/fiche If anyone has copies of #28 onwards, I would like to get copies to scan and add to the archive. From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jul 23 19:05:58 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:05:58 -0400 Subject: Weird S100 memory board problem In-Reply-To: <42E1BB5D.nailMQU11OT2B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <004501c58fe3$7845ddc0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> OK. Switches are good and I actually tried a manual deposit/examine at boundry locations 4k, 8k, 12k and 16k. The manual test worked fine, so I'd have to say that the memory is good. Does anyone have a tried-and-true memory test program that's easy to toggle in? Thanks. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 11:37 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Weird S100 memory board problem > Where should I look next? Is this one of those boards where all 4 banks can be independently mapped via jumpers or dipswitches? Do not pass go, do not assume that a jumper or dipswitch is conducting just because it looks installed or is closed. Ohm them all out. Other than that, time to check the address decoders etc. Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 23 18:41:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:41:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Weird S100 memory board problem In-Reply-To: <002701c58f32$52d2f160$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> from "Richard A. Cini" at Jul 22, 5 10:57:54 pm Message-ID: > I have a CompuPro/Godbout RAM14 (16kx8) board, arranged in 4 banks > of 4k starting at 0. I ran a memory test program on it and it shows address > 0x3000 as failing; when you look at data written, it appears that BIT 0 is > bad. Can you check that you can change and read back at least one bit in this block of memory? > > So, I ordered some 2147 chips from JDR and swapped the bad chip. It > still fails the same bit. So, I swapped it with another chip in the row, and > it fails again. It passes at address 1000 and 2000, so it can't be an > address bit buffer chip. I don't quite understand what you are saying here. If you swap the bit 0 chip with, say, bit 3 of the same block of memory, does bit 0 still fail, or does it now work and bit 3 fail. In other words is the fault in a particular chip or a particular location on the board? If, as I guess, it's a particular location on the board, you should see if there are any buffers that only apply to that location (e.g. data in or out buffers). Also, check the IC socket, and for cracked traces on the board going to that chip -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 23 18:44:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:44:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: hardware debugging - history repeats itself In-Reply-To: <000901c58f8a$14587f10$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> from "Jack Rubin" at Jul 23, 5 08:26:05 am Message-ID: > Shades of Grace Hopper and the Mark II moth! It didn't stop the system working, but I dismantled my TRS-80 Model 100 to extract a cockroach that was running about between the keys. I described this a literally debugging the machine :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 23 18:58:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:58:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is an HP98616? Message-ID: I've just come across an HP box containing 5 3.5" floppies. They all have original HP labels on them. All the labels contain the following Hewlett-Packard 9000 Series 200/300 98616A Opt. 045 BASIC 5.1 The rest of ithe label depends on the disk : System Disk Pat No 98616-10500 Rev. 5.1 Drivers + Language Ext Part No 98616-10501 Rev. 5.1 Utilities Disc Part No 98616-10502 Rev. 5.1 HFS Utilities Part No 98616-10503 Rev. 5.1 Manual Examples Disc Part No 98616-10504 Rev 5.1 Anyone know what it is, and what machine it runs on? -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 23 19:26:25 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What is an HP98616? Message-ID: <20050724002625.6B0E617EC08@bitsavers.org> 98616A Opt. 045 BASIC 5.1 -- HP BASIC verison 5.1 Should run on 200's and 300's From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 23 19:30:42 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What is an HP98616? Message-ID: <20050724003042.4100217EC0C@bitsavers.org> here is a picture of the discs, with the doc set http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=26 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jul 23 20:23:45 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:23:45 -0400 Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050723212345.00981690@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> That sounds like the installation disks for HP BASIC 5.1. Nice Find! It took me years of searching to get a set. It should run on just about any HP 9000 series 200 or 300 machine. (HP 9816, 9826, 9836, 9000/220, 9000/310, 9000/320, etc etc etc). Joe At 12:58 AM 7/24/05 +0100, you wrote: >I've just come across an HP box containing 5 3.5" floppies. They all have >original HP labels on them. > >All the labels contain the following > >Hewlett-Packard >9000 Series 200/300 >98616A Opt. 045 >BASIC 5.1 > >The rest of ithe label depends on the disk : > >System Disk >Pat No 98616-10500 Rev. 5.1 > > >Drivers + Language Ext >Part No 98616-10501 Rev. 5.1 > > >Utilities Disc >Part No 98616-10502 Rev. 5.1 > >HFS Utilities >Part No 98616-10503 Rev. 5.1 > > >Manual Examples Disc >Part No 98616-10504 Rev 5.1 > > >Anyone know what it is, and what machine it runs on? > >-tony > > From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Sat Jul 23 20:50:00 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:50:00 -0500 Subject: Retroarchive.org Message-ID: <42E2F3C8.3000309@vzavenue.net> Gene Buckles's retroarchive.org seems to be down. Does anyone know if it's permanent and did anyone mirror it? James -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 23 19:25:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:25:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: <20050724002625.6B0E617EC08@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jul 23, 5 05:26:25 pm Message-ID: > > > 98616A Opt. 045 > BASIC 5.1 > > -- > > > HP BASIC verison 5.1 > > Should run on 200's and 300's I'd guessed that much :-) Is this a bootable system, or does it run under something else? I've noticed that these disks appear to have LIF filesystems on them. What does the Opt 045 mean? -tony From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Sat Jul 23 20:53:15 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:53:15 -0500 Subject: Retroarchive.org Message-ID: <42E2F48B.3080000@vzavenue.net> > Gene Buckles's retroarchive.org seems to be down. Does anyone know if > it's permanent and did anyone mirror it? > > James I guess I should have asked Gene directly. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jul 23 21:10:02 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 21:10:02 -0500 Subject: Retroarchive.org References: <42E2F3C8.3000309@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <001a01c58ff4$cd697580$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> James wrote.... > Gene Buckles's retroarchive.org seems to be down. Does anyone know if > it's permanent and did anyone mirror it? I host retroarchive.org on the classiccmp server. Server is up.... a quick look-see seems to be a DNS issue as ns1.simpits.org isn't responding. If the admin for ns1.simpits.org doesn't fix their stuff soon, let me know and I'll alias it under classiccmp.org - DNS works there ;) Jay From jrice54 at blackcube.org Sat Jul 23 22:06:42 2005 From: jrice54 at blackcube.org (James Rice) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:06:42 -0500 Subject: Retroarchive.org In-Reply-To: <001a01c58ff4$cd697580$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <42E2F3C8.3000309@vzavenue.net> <001a01c58ff4$cd697580$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42E305C2.1080204@blackcube.org> Jay West wrote: > James wrote.... > >> Gene Buckles's retroarchive.org seems to be down. Does anyone know >> if it's permanent and did anyone mirror it? > > > I host retroarchive.org on the classiccmp server. Server is up.... a > quick look-see seems to be a DNS issue as ns1.simpits.org isn't > responding. If the admin for ns1.simpits.org doesn't fix their stuff > soon, let me know and I'll alias it under classiccmp.org - DNS works > there ;) > > Jay > Cool. Thanks Jay. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jul 23 22:12:50 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 23:12:50 -0400 Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: References: <20050724002625.6B0E617EC08@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050723231250.009aee20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:25 AM 7/24/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> >> 98616A Opt. 045 >> BASIC 5.1 >> >> -- >> >> >> HP BASIC verison 5.1 >> >> Should run on 200's and 300's > >I'd guessed that much :-) Is this a bootable system, The "System Disk" should be but it will not include any language extensions so none of the peripherals or internal options (clock, error messages, DMA, etc) will work. It's a dammed minimal system and about the only thing that will work is the ALPHA display and the default disk drive. However once you get a system running you can load the .BIN files (device drivers) located on the "Drivers + Language Ext" disk using the LOAD BIN filename command. When you get all the drivers loaded that you want you can save the entire operating system as one file (if your drive is large enough. It won't fit on a floppy disk). Use the LIST BIN command to show what BIN files are currently loaded. You can also use SCRATCH BIN to unload all the BIN files but that's not particularly usefull since you won't be able to do much with just the minimum OS. >IIRC< the command to save the OS file that is currently in memory is SAVE SYSTEM filename.* The interesting thing is that you can create many different operating system files, each with different BIN files included and save each OS file using a different name. Then when you boot the system you can press the space bar and it will stop the system from automaticly booting the first OS file that it finds and instead it will display a list of all the OS files (and ROM cards with OSs) and you can boot any OS file by pressing the one or two letter code displayed next to the desired OS. See for more information about this. *There are some oddities about naming the OS files but I don't recall all the details off the top of my head. One of the things that I found was that the LETTER displayed with the OS file depends on the one the first letter of the second half of the OS filename. If you name the OS file SYSTEM_BAS then the letter will be B but if you saved the exact same file as SYSTEM_RAS then the letter will be R. Also, if the Boot ROM will display the first B file with the code 1B. The next B file will be 2B, etc etc. So if you created a system and saved it as SYSTEM_BAS and then saved it again as SYSTEM_RAS and then rebooted and viewed the OS files you would see 1B and 1R. If you then saved another OS file as SYS_BAS and then rebooted and viewed the OS files you'd see 1B, 1R and 2B. IIRC you don't have to use the name SYSTEM although that's what the manual says to use. You can end up with some real screwy codes depending on what file names you use! For example you can save HPL, Pascal and BASIC OS files all using a Bxx suffix and all the files will be displayed as 1B, 2B, 3B etc even though they're different languages! However the system will always know that the files are OS files since you used the SAVE SYSTEM command to save them. I haved played with this in a long time but I can look up the details if you need them. or does it run under >something else? I've noticed that these disks appear to have LIF >filesystems on them. I believe they are. However BASIC 5.1 itself supported the Hirectical File System (HFS). In other words directories, sub-directories etc. > >What does the Opt 045 mean? I'm not sure of the specific meaning in this case but usually it just indicates the type disk that's included in the set (5 1/4" vs 3 1/2", etc). Joe > >-tony > > From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Jul 23 22:59:01 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 23:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Various SAGE histories have reported "technicians running up and down > the aisles pushing shopping carts full of tubes". I don't know about > other air divisions, but I never saw it. Perhaps when the systems were first installed - tube computers went thru lots of tube during the first few months of life. Once the break in period was finished, and all the weak tubes were weeded out, tube machines are reasonably reliable. Most of the tubes in my SAGE junk appear to be originals. Of course, with 50000 tubes, some are still going to go bad over the years. > Towards the end of the system's life, the remaining SAGE systems had to > make due with tubes scrounged from previously deactivated systems. It seems to me there are a few oddball types in /FSQ-7 hardware - probably easier scrounged than getting them thru proper supply channels. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jul 23 23:08:54 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 00:08:54 -0400 Subject: PDP11/10 pictures In-Reply-To: <20797.62.177.191.201.1122150931.squirrel@62.177.191.201> References: <20797.62.177.191.201.1122150931.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Message-ID: <42E31456.4070401@atarimuseum.com> That is one beautiful machine, congrats on its revival. Curt quapla at xs4all.nl wrote: >Forgot to add picture links, the pics can be found at > >www.groenenberg.net/tmp/pdp1110_1.jpg >www.groenenberg.net/tmp/pdp1110_2.jpg >www.groenenberg.net/tmp/pdp1110_3.jpg > >Ed > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 7/22/2005 From arron.owns at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 05:39:42 2005 From: arron.owns at gmail.com (Arron McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 03:39:42 -0700 Subject: my speccy Message-ID: Hi I'm Arron, 15, from New Zealand. Yesterday I just finished piecing together two dead spectrums into one working unit. I had a few problems with screen quality so I replaced the modulator with a little composite circuit. Better quality, though flicker still remains.Might add a power switch also. This has been my first foray into Sinclair machines. Are there any other New Zealanders here? I met Ethan Dicks a while ago on his way through the country. -Arron From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 24 05:56:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:56:26 +0000 Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1122202586.10259.25.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-07-23 at 23:59 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > Various SAGE histories have reported "technicians running up and down > > the aisles pushing shopping carts full of tubes". I don't know about > > other air divisions, but I never saw it. > > Perhaps when the systems were first installed - tube computers went thru > lots of tube during the first few months of life. Once the break in period > was finished, and all the weak tubes were weeded out, tube machines are > reasonably reliable. Most of the tubes in my SAGE junk appear to be > originals. And as found with Colossus, it's power cycling that really kills them, so keep that to a minimum and they tend to last pretty well. I'll have to ask what the failure rate was with the original Colossus machines, also it's possible that never got documented anywhere (at least anywhere that isn't still classified) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 24 07:04:34 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:04:34 +0000 Subject: disk versus disc Message-ID: <1122206674.10241.42.camel@weka.localdomain> Curiousity for the day - is there any difference between the use of disk and disc when describing floppy drives, hard drives etc.? The majority of people seem to use disc, but the use of one or the other doesn't seem to be a regional thing. I just wondered if one is technically right and the other wrong when it comes to computing... cheers Jules From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Sun Jul 24 08:07:56 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:07:56 -0400 Subject: tk50's and dlt In-Reply-To: <200507202017.j6KKHlxA015288@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200507202017.j6KKHlxA015288@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <42E392AC.2060206@splab.cas.neu.edu> I'd be real careful running them on a "fast" drive. I just tried to archive about 120 TK50s and almost half of them stuck to the head because of the coating coming off and gumming up the head. I was reading them on a TK70 and I suspect the high speed did not help. I am going back to my TK50 to try to recover the ones that failed, although I do not have much confidence in that. Joe Heck Zane H. Healy wrote: >>I've got a pile of tk50's I'd like to preserve >>the contents of. Maybe 300 or so. >> >>what's the fastest drive for reading them? >> >>I have a qbus tk70, and probably a tkz-50 somewhere, >>but if it could read them faster, I'd be perfectly >>willing to acquire a tz30 or a dlt. Surplus dlt stackers >>like a tz887 are pretty cheap these days; could one >>of those do the job? > > > You'll want to pay close attention to what drive you get if you go with a > DLT drive. I think you can use up the the DEC equivalent of a DLT2000 > drive, however, it *MUST* be a DEC Drive, the Quantum drives can't read > them. > > >>format wise, many of the tapes are vms sw install kits. >> >>is there a way (ie, existing sw and formats) to archive >>these such that new install tapes could be cut without needing >>a vms system to do it? > > > I'd recommend taking a look at the tools for SIMH, though personally, I > always use TPC format under VMS. It would be nice if there was a version of > TPC for Unix, but the closest I'm aware of is a tool to convert TPC files to > SIMH TAP files. > > Zane > From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sun Jul 24 08:08:56 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:08:56 -0400 Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: <1122206674.10241.42.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1122206674.10241.42.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050724090721.03aab7a0@pop-server> At 08:04 AM 7/24/2005, you wrote: >Curiosity for the day - is there any difference between the use of disk >and disc when describing floppy drives, hard drives etc.? my take Disk = floppy or hard disk Disc - some people use it to describe a CD. Imagine it started with a spelling error ================================= Gene Ehrich gehrich at tampabay.rr.com From tradde at excite.com Sun Jul 24 08:25:06 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: disk versus disc Message-ID: <20050724132506.430BD1973AB@xprdmailfe3.nwk.excite.com> --- On Sun 07/24, Gene Ehrich < gehrich at tampabay.rr.com > wrote: From: Gene Ehrich [mailto: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 09:08:56 -0400 Subject: Re: disk versus disc At 08:04 AM 7/24/2005, you wrote:
>Curiosity for the day - is there any difference between the use of disk
>and disc when describing floppy drives, hard drives etc.?

my take

Disk = floppy or hard disk

Disc - some people use it to describe a CD. Imagine it started with a
spelling error



=================================
Gene Ehrich
gehrich at tampabay.rr.com

I don't agree. I remember seeing both spellings long ago, like back in 1971 (long before CDs), and wondered then which was or is correct. Seems like both are used quite readily. I don't have a problem with either spelling. Tim R _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 24 09:07:44 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:07:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building Message-ID: <20050724140744.35820.qmail@web25002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > And as found with Colossus, it's power cycling that really > kills them, so keep that to a minimum and they tend to last > pretty well. The fail rate can be reduced significantly by bringing the filament supply up slowly, over a couple of minutes, and then applying the bias supplies for a period, the longer the better, before the HT is applied. It's not unusual to see lifetimes of 150,000+ hours on transmitter valves using these techniques and that's on valves power cycled a few times each day. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Jul 24 09:31:29 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:31:29 +0100 Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: <1122206674.10241.42.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1122206674.10241.42.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: In message <1122206674.10241.42.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > Curiousity for the day - is there any difference between the use of disk > and disc when describing floppy drives, hard drives etc.? Near as I can tell... Disk = shortened form of "Diskette". Disc = Little round thing inside a floppy disk, covered in ferromagnetic "Magic Dust". Alternate: Round plastic thing used to store data, e.g. CD, DVD. I spell it "disc" - most of the RISC OS users I know do too (probably down to Acorn using that spelling in RISC OS and all the OS manuals - right down to hard drives being initialised as "HardDisc" after formatting). Start a war over it if you like, but I'll just sit and watch, thanks. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... New strain of system-trashing virus : WINDOWS From appleto at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 09:39:09 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:39:09 -0400 Subject: Apple II vs Apple II+ In-Reply-To: <42E1A795.5BFCF192@rain.org> References: <42E1A795.5BFCF192@rain.org> Message-ID: >From the Apple ][ Reference Manual: "The Apple II Plus is a standard Apple II computer with a Revision 1 board, an Autostart Monitor ROM, and the Applesoft II BASIC languae in ROM in lieu of Apple Integer BASIC. European models of the Apple II Plus are equipped with a 110/220 volt power supply." It goes on to discuss the differences in the ROM. Revision 0 and Revision 1 mainboards are discussed elsewhere. I believe that Apple had several mainboard revisions after this was published, and that Apple was using Revision 1 boards for the Apple ][ as well. From menadeau at comcast.net Sun Jul 24 10:00:58 2005 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:00:58 -0400 Subject: Varisystems, Compugraphic References: <20050722235624.86170.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01c59060$81967ab0$0c01a8c0@Mike> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Maddox" To: Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 7:56 PM Subject: Varisystems, Compugraphic > There was also an auction on eBay recently of some > spare parts for a Compugraphics typesetter that > indicated that it too was based on a proprietary CPU. > The machine in question was from the late 60's. I had > never heard of them until the 80's, when they were > building systems around the PERQ (!!) and funding some > development work at CMU. I don't know about earlier Compugraphic systems, but the one I used in the mid-1970s had Z80 CPUs. --Mike From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jul 24 10:06:07 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:06:07 -0400 Subject: Compupro progress / Console questions ? Message-ID: <20050724150606.YJZW21628.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, I've made some progress on the Compupro system. This is a Godbout/Compupro S-100 system with: 8086/87 CPU DISK1 Floppy Disk controller Interfacer4 I/O Disk2 and Selector Channel (for HD - not installed) The problem I first posted what that it would select the drive with no disk in the drive, but not with a diskette! I disassembled the boot ROM, and rebuilt it with some output to show what was reading from the FDC. I determined that it was aborting the READ command with a "Drive changed Ready State during command". I tested the SA-851 drives on a different machine, but it appears they are incompatible with or not jumpered correctly for the Compupro controller. I hooked up a more modern 8" drive, and now the system goes through the booting motions reliably. In doing my debug, I also confirmed that the console port on the Interfacer 4 is working correctly (thats what I used for the debug output). According to Compupro Docs, the Console port is USER 7 - I have setup the board to respond to users 4-7, which is the default setup requireed for the console shows in the Compupro docs. As noted above, I can select user7 and talk to the console correctly, which would suggest that this is all working correctly. The DISK1A docs say: Switch 3 position 1 should be ON to use the "System Support 1" as the console, and OFF to use an Interfacer 3 or 4, user 7 as the console. I have checked that this switch is OFF, and that the bit is actually not grounded. When I boot the system, I see the RTS+DTR lines come up on all three serial ports, however I never get any console output. Either the console configuration does not match tbe boot disk, or the system is crashing/hanging during startup. The disks I am using are original Compupro distribution disks (Can't make copies yet), labled: Serial# C86-272-1854 Version: CP/< 86 (P0 in handwriting) CP/M 86 1.1 SYSTEM MASTER Disk Number 1 Single Sided - 1024 B/S Serial# C86-0272-1854 Version: 1R CP/M 86 SYSTEM MASTER Disk Number 2 of 2 Single Sided - 1024 B/S Disk 1 appears to do nothing, however Disk 2 is obviously booting - it recalibrates, reads a bit, seeks out a bit and reads some more, then seeks way out to read a bit more and back to near Track 0 - or something like that. Part way though this the RTS+DTR lights come up on the serial ports. Does anyone have any ideas as to what could be going wrong? It looks like all of the hardware is working. Anyone got a known good CP/M 86 disk for Compupro with Inerfacer 4 as the console? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jul 24 10:06:12 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:06:12 -0400 Subject: Teledisk replacement Message-ID: <20050724150611.YKAI21628.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> If anyone is interested in playing with it, my ImageDisk replacement for Teledisk is getting to the point where it can backup and restore pretty much everything I've been able to do with Teledisk (although it doesn't quietly make garbage images from unreadable/incompatible disks like Teledisk) ... still very preliminary, however if anyone wants to play with it, drop me a line. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jul 24 10:34:48 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:34:48 -0400 Subject: Compupro progress / Console questions ? Message-ID: <0IK500FV21Y16TYA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Compupro progress / Console questions ? > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:06:07 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Hi Guys, > >I disassembled the boot ROM, and rebuilt it with some output to >show what was reading from the FDC. > >I determined that it was aborting the READ command with a "Drive >changed Ready State during command". I tested the SA-851 drives on >a different machine, but it appears they are incompatible with or >not jumpered correctly for the Compupro controller. known but forgotton problem in the 8" world. 765 has a READY sense line and the 851 is know for changing state of the line during select. Solution, force ready at the board (jumper) and don't use it. READY was for detecting disk changes. >According to Compupro Docs, the Console port is USER 7 - I have >setup the board to respond to users 4-7, which is the default setup >requireed for the console shows in the Compupro docs. As noted >above, I can select user7 and talk to the console correctly, which >would suggest that this is all working correctly. It is likely initing the ports but may not use any of them. It's possible the bootable media may use a different port scheme. Its likely a difference between the boot roms and the BIOS code once the boot transfers to the OS. I assume based on the CPU your runnig CP/m-86 (or any DRI -86) as the boot roms load a loader then load the OS (bios and all). So booting is multi step code. Allison From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Jul 24 10:33:33 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:33:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "disk versus disc" (Jul 24, 12:04) References: <1122206674.10241.42.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10507241633.ZM10137@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jul 24 2005, 12:04, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Curiousity for the day - is there any difference between the use of disk > and disc when describing floppy drives, hard drives etc.? > > The majority of people seem to use disc, but the use of one or the other > doesn't seem to be a regional thing. You'd probably find most Americans would prefer "disk", and "disc" would probably be found mainly in UK. Originally "disc" was the English spelling (from the Latin "discus"), and "disk" was American. Acorn were obsessive about using the "disc" spelling, but the distinction is long gone for most people. Even the OED lists both and has done since at least the early 80s. The difference in usage has nothing to do with differences between floppies, mini-floppies, micro-floppies, hard drives, or CDs (though CDs are "Compact Discs"). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wacarder at earthlink.net Sun Jul 24 10:43:54 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:43:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Blue Panel PDP-11/35 pictures Message-ID: <30666001.1122219834595.JavaMail.root@wamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I've posted some pictures of the blue panel 11/35 and a PDP-8a that I recently acquired and got up and running. The pictures are at: http://www.woffordwitch.com/PDPCollection.asp Click on the Blue Panel PDP-11/35 link. Ashley From GOOI at oce.nl Sun Jul 24 10:44:03 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:44:03 +0200 Subject: disk versus disc Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1DBA@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hmm, my guess, this is a UK/US spelling thing. Other words that come to mind are center/centre, program/programme, and then all the verbs with z/s, like recognize/recognise. just 2c, - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: 24-7-2005 15:08 Subject: Re: disk versus disc At 08:04 AM 7/24/2005, you wrote: >Curiosity for the day - is there any difference between the use of disk >and disc when describing floppy drives, hard drives etc.? my take Disk = floppy or hard disk Disc - some people use it to describe a CD. Imagine it started with a spelling error ================================= Gene Ehrich gehrich at tampabay.rr.com From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 24 10:55:16 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:55:16 -0700 Subject: tk50's and dlt Message-ID: <71f003dff801bd6b5f83ffd9d1011d07@bitsavers.org> I'd be real careful running them on a "fast" drive. I just tried to archive about 120 TK50s and almost half of them stuck to the head because of the coating coming off and gumming up the head. -- I had exactly the same experience a few months ago. The formulation of TK50s appear to 'shed', dumping residue when the tape reverses. If you are going to try it again, find a drive where you can easily access the head, so that you can clean it before EVERY attempt to read a tape. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 24 10:59:02 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:59:02 -0700 Subject: disk versus disc Message-ID: <015253a8905fa2b012cfeac035380c78@bitsavers.org> > doesn't seem to be a regional thing. In the docs I've been looking at, HP uses 'disc' while DEC uses 'disk'. Haven't looked at any 'DEC' docs from the Compaq or HP era to see if it changes one way or the other. From news at computercollector.com Sun Jul 24 11:17:47 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:17:47 -0400 Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: <015253a8905fa2b012cfeac035380c78@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200507241624.j6OGO9LI002863@keith.ezwind.net> Disc is incorrect unless we're talking about a flying disc, in which case it's slang for discus. (Although in eight years of competing in track and field in high school and college, I never heard anyone say "my event is the disc".) In the "for what it's worth here" department, according the AP stylebook, disk refers to any thin plate where computer data is stored, while diskette refers to a floppy-style disk (compared to, for example, a hard disk)... compact disc is an exception because in that case, disc is a proper noun refering to the trademarked term. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 11:59 AM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: disk versus disc > doesn't seem to be a regional thing. In the docs I've been looking at, HP uses 'disc' while DEC uses 'disk'. Haven't looked at any 'DEC' docs from the Compaq or HP era to see if it changes one way or the other. From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jul 24 11:32:27 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:32:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <1122202586.10259.25.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > And as found with Colossus, it's power cycling that really kills them, > so keep that to a minimum and they tend to last pretty well. That may be a Colossus-only effect, as it did not use low power computer tubes. The minis and subminis of the 1950s, made for computer usage, were really not effected by power cycling. Filament burnouts on these types of tubes are exceeding rare. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cb at mythtech.net Sun Jul 24 11:38:16 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:38:16 -0400 Subject: disk versus disc Message-ID: >Curiousity for the day - is there any difference between the use of disk >and disc when describing floppy drives, hard drives etc.? > >The majority of people seem to use disc, but the use of one or the other >doesn't seem to be a regional thing. > >I just wondered if one is technically right and the other wrong when it >comes to computing... Although all the "technical" answers others have given are likely correct... I really suspect the majority of modern computer users use the terms because of the following: Disk = short for diskette, refers to floppies, and when a hard drive is called a "disk" is used for that as well simply because that is what floppies were called at the time hard drives became cheaper and more mainstream. Disc = CD or DVD. Not short of anything per se, but is taken right off the offical Compact Disc logo. For whatever reason, Sony et al decided to use "disc" for CDs. That is the way the packages and logos are written for CDs and now usually for DVDs as well. Nothing more complex or deep rooted then that. People use the spelling they see on the packages in front of them. Floppies almost always say "Disk" and CDs always (it is part of the offical logo) say "Disc". From there, users interchange them from time to time because they simply don't know what is correct or even why each are the way they are. -chris From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jul 24 11:40:40 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:40:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <20050724140744.35820.qmail@web25002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > The fail rate can be reduced significantly by bringing the > filament supply up slowly, over a couple of minutes, and then > applying the bias supplies for a period, the longer the better, > before the HT is applied. > > It's not unusual to see lifetimes of 150,000+ hours on > transmitter valves using these techniques and that's on valves > power cycled a few times each day. For transmitting tubes (valves), yes, careful power-up is important, but for computer rated minis, not so much. If anything, the a slow power-up is probably protecting the power supplies more than the tubes. Computer rated minis fail, like most receiving tubes, due to a lack of emmision. Weak filaments that lead to burnouts and loose elements that lead to shorts generally get weeded out quickly, as the tubes die prematurely. The margin checking the /FSQ-7 did, as well as most tube computers, is an old radioman's trick - reduce the filament by 10 precent. A strong tube's gm will not change by much, but a weak one will take a dive in gm. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jul 24 11:53:17 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:53:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8/e paint Message-ID: I just pulled a somewhat parted Typeset-8 out of a very dirty Memphis basement, and just like the PDP-8/e I had before this, the panel paint is just starting to peel above the rightmost switches. This bugs the hell out of me. I hate peeling paint. I am toying with the idea of mixing up some paint to patch the flaws (the rest of the panel is really great). Is there any interest in 8/e orange (both shades) touchup paint, or am I the only one that manages to get 8/e's with peels? The Typeset came with a DF32/DS32 pair and a Teleype BRPE paper tape punch (PP67?), but the paper tape panels and electronics were removed years ago. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 24 12:00:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:00:11 +0000 Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: <20050724132506.430BD1973AB@xprdmailfe3.nwk.excite.com> References: <20050724132506.430BD1973AB@xprdmailfe3.nwk.excite.com> Message-ID: <1122224411.10259.65.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 09:25 -0400, Tim wrote: > I don't agree. I remember seeing both spellings long ago, like back > in 1971 (long before CDs), and wondered then which was or is correct. > Seems like both are used quite readily. I don't have a problem with > either spelling. > Tim R Thanks for the opinions people :) Personally I've always used disk, but I don't know why. It doesn't bug me at all people using either, I just wondered if one was technically more correct than the other. Disc rather than disk seems a lot more popular on this side of the pond these days, possibly due to the decline of floppies and use of CDs. My only annoyance with the variation is when I'm archiving anything (paper, software, whatever) as I have to make an effort to note which variation the author used and use the same as they did. Can't think of a reason where it matters otherwise. cheers Jules From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jul 24 12:11:41 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:11:41 -0400 Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E3CBCD.nailEFQ1BW3YG@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > The minis and subminis of the 1950s, made for computer usage, > were really not effected by power cycling. Filament burnouts on these > types of tubes are exceeding rare. But inter-element shorts and leakage become more common, and my experience (backed up by many years of leaky/shorted tubes) is that these are related to power-on cycles. (i.e. "it worked last time I used it, but then I turned it on and all it does is hum"). Maybe reduced sizes make physical tolerances between the elements more critical in the smaller tubes. Even though a lot of the leakage I've seen is between adjacent pins, not between adjacent elements. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jul 24 12:14:00 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:14:00 -0400 Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E3CC58.nailEIR111YH2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > loose elements that lead to shorts generally get weeded out quickly You may have a point there. The worst tubes I've had with regard to shorts are recent Eastern European imports. Used tubes rarely give me this grief. Tim. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jul 24 12:36:26 2005 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:36:26 -0700 Subject: Retroarchive.org In-Reply-To: <001a01c58ff4$cd697580$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <42E2F3C8.3000309@vzavenue.net> <001a01c58ff4$cd697580$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42E3D19A.2000707@deltasoft.com> Jay West wrote: > James wrote.... > >> Gene Buckles's retroarchive.org seems to be down. Does anyone know if >> it's permanent and did anyone mirror it? > > > I host retroarchive.org on the classiccmp server. Server is up.... a > quick look-see seems to be a DNS issue as ns1.simpits.org isn't > responding. If the admin for ns1.simpits.org doesn't fix their stuff > soon, let me know and I'll alias it under classiccmp.org - DNS works > there ;) Sorry guys. My DSL was down all day yesterday due to Qwest fumble-fingering a configuration change. (I think) Since I do the DNS for retrarchive.org, it was unavailable. Sorry! This was the first serious outage I've had in something like 4 years, so I consider myself lucky. :) g. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jul 24 12:41:35 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:41:35 -0400 Subject: local demolition of SAGE building Message-ID: <0IK500KNC7TAJ95A@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: local demolition of SAGE building > From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) > Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 13:11:41 -0400 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org, cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> The minis and subminis of the 1950s, made for computer usage, >> were really not effected by power cycling. Filament burnouts on these >> types of tubes are exceeding rare. > >But inter-element shorts and leakage become more common, and my >experience (backed up by many years of leaky/shorted tubes) is that >these are related to power-on cycles. (i.e. "it worked last time I >used it, but then I turned it on and all it does is hum"). > >Maybe reduced sizes make physical tolerances between the elements more >critical in the smaller tubes. Even though a lot of the leakage >I've seen is between adjacent pins, not between adjacent elements. > >Tim. This is very true. The tube machines were not friendly to power cycling. Due to the amount of power invloved and loading effects. The preference was to kill B+ (high volts) to the affected section and keep the filaments hot. Further like all thermally affected things temperature cycleing ws not only a filament problem but tube seals (glass to metal) and element movement is problematic. Many high gain tubes have remarkably close spacing of the elments particulary cathode to grid1. Another phenomenum was tubes have materials to grab gasses and ions in them that only work well when hot. Temperature cycling was (and still is) a reliability issue. It was just much more easily noticed when you have more than ten thousand tubes and the differential temps from cold to hot (both filament and cabinet) are so large. The smaller mini and submini tubes were only somewhat better but smaller means closer in smaller space and prescreening weeded out infant mortality at the mechanical level. There were even special tubes developed that would better withstand being at cutoff for extended periods without losing emission. I have a few of these, they are pin compatable with 12AX7 duo triode but have slight differences as they are for extended operation at cutoff. Outside of computers I have years to commercial radio where tubes have had long standing in the transmitters especially at high power. Power cycling was and still is avoided. When the power has been removed such as for maintenance or expecially retubing (done based on time in service) the initial bring up is done slowly to warm up the "getter" (degassing) and to avoid thermal shocking parts. It's also not uncommon to see step starting built into the power supplied to avoid the harsh effect of surge loading the power lines or trying to bring 500uf of capacitor up to voltage in a half cycle (kills rectifiers!). The last bastion of widespread tube use was television and over time even tube sets (particulary those with series string heaters) adopted "instant on" circuits which ran the filaments at 50-70% when powered off and removed the operating DC. This reduced warmup time to nil and also improved the operating life of the tubes and the reciever greatly. Treated right tubes(valves) offer excellent reliability and lifetimes mistreaded and those can be drastically shortend. Allison From dieymir at yahoo.es Sun Jul 24 13:21:44 2005 From: dieymir at yahoo.es (Diego Rodriguez) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:21:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: ...still looking for MS-Fortran for ANY DOS puter In-Reply-To: <200507191658.j6JGvvp7027223@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050724182144.44723.qmail@web26406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Message: 26 > Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 00:00:09 -0700 (PDT) > From: Chris M > Subject: Re: ...still looking for MS-Fortran for ANY DOS puter > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <20050718070009.42253.qmail at web61023.mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > are you the site administrator or something??? An > offer to buy or trade would not have been ruled out. > The COBOL compiler I mentioned was bought dopey > person, with manuals, for 5 bucks. I mentioned the > Borland Museum because I like passing on a hot tip > once in a while, ummm like yourself (who isnt aware of > e donkey?). But I dont feel the need to issue > ultimatums. > --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > wrote: > > Chris M wrote: > > > > >I may have posted this request...plea...on cctech > some > > >time ago. I've been looking for an early Microsoft > > >Fortran compiler for eons. Vanilla DOS version > would > > >be fine, but for something exotic like the Tandy > 2000 > > >or Zenith Z-100 would be exquisite. I was fortunate > to > > >obtain, oo, MS-COBOL recently, and to my amazement > I > > >managed to WinImage the disks. Version 2.0 or > > >something. > > > If any of you weren't aware, the earliest versions > of > > >Turbo Pascal and Turbo C are available for download > on > > >the Borland Museum. > Ssssh... is this what are you looking for: ftp://ftp.elektra.ru/pub/OtherSoft/C_FORTRA/MSF51.ZIP I really don't think that sharing this *old* stuff harms M$ bussiness. Hope this helps. ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From dieymir at yahoo.es Sun Jul 24 13:56:18 2005 From: dieymir at yahoo.es (Diego Rodriguez) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:56:18 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DR DOS 5.0 Message-ID: <20050724185618.77581.qmail@web26402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Anybody knows something about its history ?? I have installation disks with files dated 6/1990 and also a boot disk with some files dated in 2/1991, I know that several bug fixing versions exist, but Which is the last ?? I remembered it when I was reading all that Windows Vista (LongHorn) stuff. Seems that M$ is using 'vaporware' again to distract attention from Intel Mac OS X much like they did with MS-DOS 5.0 and DR DOS 5.0. ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 24 13:25:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:25:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050723212345.00981690@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jul 23, 5 09:23:45 pm Message-ID: > > That sounds like the installation disks for HP BASIC 5.1. Nice Find! It > took me years of searching to get a set. It should run on just about any HP > 9000 series 200 or 300 machine. (HP 9816, 9826, 9836, 9000/220, 9000/310, > 9000/320, etc etc etc). So I should be able to boot my 9836 from these? Excellent!. I assume I should use an externaal 9122 drive connected to the 9836's built-in HPIB port (the 9836 has 2 interal drives, but they are 5.25" ones, of course). As I don't have a 9122, would a 9123 work if I powered it correctly? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 24 13:37:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:37:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050723231250.009aee20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jul 23, 5 11:12:50 pm Message-ID: [Much useful info deleted -- Thanks a lot for this] > letter code displayed next to the desired OS. See > for more information about this. I've taken a quick look, and I think I have a couple of corrections. You mention that options are listed by their HPIB address, don't you mean DIO bus select code? A number of the options aren't HPIB devices. And you mention the serial number being stored in the boot ROM. AFAIK, it's stored in a separate 'ID PROM' -- the 9826/9836 boardswapper manual tells you to remove this chip and put it into the new CPU board if you're replacing the CPU board. In these machines, only the latest (of 3 possible) CPU/RAM boards and the CPU/MMU board have this PROM. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 24 13:38:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:38:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050723231250.009aee20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jul 23, 5 11:12:50 pm Message-ID: Oops, I forgot to say.... > I haved played with this in a long time but I can look up the details if > you need them. Not for the moment :-)... Doubless I'll have more questions when I try to boot the 9836, but I'll probably not have time to work on that machine for a few months. When I do get it out and start fiddling, of course I'll mention it here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 24 13:42:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:42:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20050724090721.03aab7a0@pop-server> from "Gene Ehrich" at Jul 24, 5 09:08:56 am Message-ID: > > At 08:04 AM 7/24/2005, you wrote: > >Curiosity for the day - is there any difference between the use of disk > >and disc when describing floppy drives, hard drives etc.? > > my take > > Disk = floppy or hard disk > > Disc - some people use it to describe a CD. Imagine it started with a > spelling error Compact Disc players (and old CD-ROM drives) say 'Compact Disc Digital Audio' on them (it's spelt with a 'c' there). I was under the impression that 'Disk' was the American spelling, and was therefore used for floppies, winchesters, etc. Disc is the English spelling, and is used for CDs (and DVDs?) -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 24 14:43:21 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:43:21 +0000 Subject: PRIMOS (was Re: Found in a spam... (ontopic, really!!!) In-Reply-To: <012501c58f13$bdfcf770$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045C20@sbs.jdfogg.com> <00e001c58f10$16f76d50$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <1122073684.7213.234.camel@weka.localdomain> <012501c58f13$bdfcf770$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1122234201.10259.101.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-22 at 18:18 -0500, Jay West wrote: > Jules wrote.... > > Has anyone archived PRIMOS install media (for any of their machines)? > > PR1MEs themselves are hard enough to come by, but OS tapes seem to have > > totally vanished... > > Hope so... I know several ex-Prime employees, still have lunch with a few > frequently and they say they have tapes.... Phew, good to hear. I've got a couple of possibilities for PRIMOS tapes here, but in neither case is the person sure if they still have them or for which system they'll work with... Be nice to get our 750 up and running sometime... although that's dependant on whether it's picky about what SMD drives it'll work with (we have a few, but maybe it'll want a specific model and not install to anything else) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 24 14:47:47 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:47:47 +0000 Subject: 32332 CPU pinout wtd. Message-ID: <1122234467.10241.105.camel@weka.localdomain> Anyone have it? PSU circuitry checks out for the Whitechapel CG-200 but it seems reluctant to switch on; for starters I want to check the CPU board for power and reset... cheers Jules From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jul 24 15:11:48 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:11:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <42E3CBCD.nailEFQ1BW3YG@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > But inter-element shorts and leakage become more common, and my > experience (backed up by many years of leaky/shorted tubes) is that > these are related to power-on cycles. (i.e. "it worked last time I > used it, but then I turned it on and all it does is hum"). > > Maybe reduced sizes make physical tolerances between the elements more > critical in the smaller tubes. Even though a lot of the leakage > I've seen is between adjacent pins, not between adjacent elements. Leakage and shorts went down dramatically in the 1950s, when the tube makers started making the tubes in (mostly) clean room environments, with better automation. Subminis, the tubes that will-not-die, were made in real clean rooms. I do not know of any non-military computer system that used subminis. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jul 24 15:20:17 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <42E3CC58.nailEIR111YH2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > You may have a point there. The worst tubes I've had with regard > to shorts are recent Eastern European imports. Used tubes rarely > give me this grief. >From accounts I have heard, with tube computers and 50s radars, the first six to twelve months were hellish on the tube swapping techs. Anyway, I think comparing the recent Eastern European tubes to 50s U.S. tubes is like comparing pot metal to platinum. The 50s and 60s were THE time to use tubes - the quality was very high (at least with the quality brands), and the performance of the devices was unlike anything in the 40s. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jul 24 15:43:56 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:43:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <0IK500KNC7TAJ95A@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: > Further like all thermally > affected things temperature cycleing ws not only a filament problem but tube > seals (glass to metal) and element movement is problematic. Yes, thermal cycles are an issue, but only if the number of cycles gets really excessive. The minis used in computers, even in large numbers, just do not get that hot (provided they are cooled properly, of course). Keep in mind the tube guys had lots of practice with minis in thermal cycle in the late 1940s with the complex and dense aircraft radars (120 F on the ground to below freezing in a matter of minutes for something like an /APQ-35). Even some of the radios packed a huge number of tubes for such a small box (thinking /ARC-27), yet thermal cycling was not so much an issue. > Many high gain > tubes have remarkably close spacing of the elments particulary cathode to > grid1. Most computer tubes were 12AX7oids, occaisonally with a 6BA6oid. The spacings were not very critical in these relatively low gain devices. The high gain tubes generally were avoided (perhaps for this reason). I am not home right now, but when I do, I will see if any maker produced any high gain computer rated tubes. > Another phenomenum was tubes have materials to grab gasses and ions > in them that only work well when hot. As far as I know (and I will check with the tube gurus), no computer tubes used these materials. Eimac was a champion of tantalum plates, the metal that swallows up the crap when hot. Barium getters are not an issue. > The smaller mini and submini tubes > were only somewhat better A magnitude better. Probably a couple magnitudes better for subminis. The damn things just do not die (unless abused). > There were even special tubes developed that would better withstand being > at cutoff for extended periods without losing emission. Yes, these are the computer rated minis I have been mentioning. As far as I know, all commercial and military post-1950 computers used them in place of regular types. I keep every one I find, in hopes I will need them some day for a 709 or something. At this point I probably could tube up a 709, actually... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to Sun Jul 24 16:58:28 2005 From: akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:58:28 -0400 Subject: tk50's and dlt In-Reply-To: <71f003dff801bd6b5f83ffd9d1011d07@bitsavers.org> (Al Kossow's message of "Sun, 24 Jul 2005 08:55:16 -0700") References: <71f003dff801bd6b5f83ffd9d1011d07@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0qwtnfdfy3.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Joe Heck said: > I'd be real careful running them on a "fast" drive. I just tried to > archive about 120 TK50s and almost half of them stuck to the head > because of the coating coming off and gumming up the head. Al Kossow writes: > I had exactly the same experience a few months ago. The formulation > of TK50s appear to 'shed', dumping residue when the tape reverses. > > If you are going to try it again, find a drive where you can easily > access the head, so that you can clean it before EVERY attempt to > read a tape. OK, then, slow but steady it is. Any thoughts on tkz50 versus tz30? I've seen recomendations for cleaning with vcr swabs and isopropyl; any caveats or suggestions? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 24 17:14:59 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: <1122206674.10241.42.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1122206674.10241.42.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050724145733.W11263@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 24 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Curiousity for the day - is there any difference between the use of disk > and disc when describing floppy drives, hard drives etc.? > The majority of people seem to use disc, but the use of one or the other > doesn't seem to be a regional thing. > I just wondered if one is technically right and the other wrong when it > comes to computing... Isn't there ANYBODY around old enough to remember that this was THOROUGHLY discussed and settled in the computer press over 25 years ago? A computer drive uses a "DISK"; sometimes derived from "diskette", (and sometimes with a Germanic (NOT USA v Brits) influence). There was a SPECIFIC EXCEPTION made for HP, who derive their "discs" (and even sometimes "discettes"!) from "discus". Because HP yousta make good test gear, and yousta have good engineering, it was generally accepted that nobody objected to their mispelling. ("I love this VTVM; they can spell things any way they want!") However AUDIO "disc"s are spelled with a 'C'. When CD-ROMs came about, they were derived from audio CDs; therefore, CD-ROMs are "DISC"s, and floppies are "DISK"s. OB_CCTALK: Do modern (oxymoron?) Japanese, British, and Amurican cars have "Disc brakes" or "Disk brakes"? (German cars have "disk") -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jul 24 17:27:03 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:27:03 -0500 Subject: Question of Book Value Message-ID: <011101c5909e$d2f60c20$22406b43@66067007> Does anyone have a suggestion of the value of a signed J. E. Thornton "Design of a Computer: The Control Data 6600" book? Some is trying to sell one for $125. Any ideas? Thanks From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 24 18:08:18 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question of Book Value Message-ID: <20050724230818.C518C17ED24@bitsavers.org> A signed copy in good condition of Thornton at $125 is on the low end of the price range. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Jul 24 18:38:14 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Varisystems, Compugraphic In-Reply-To: <000f01c59060$81967ab0$0c01a8c0@Mike> Message-ID: <20050724233814.77844.qmail@web81309.mail.yahoo.com> --- Michael Nadeau wrote: > I don't know about earlier Compugraphic systems, but > the one I used in the > mid-1970s had Z80 CPUs. The one I'm thinking of would have been mid-to-late 60's. There was a spare parts kit for one auctioned off on eBay that contained small "building-block" logic boards, implemented with discrete transistors, I believe. Bill From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 24 18:00:19 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:00:19 -0400 Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050723212345.00981690@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050724190019.009d9100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:25 PM 7/24/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> That sounds like the installation disks for HP BASIC 5.1. Nice Find! It >> took me years of searching to get a set. It should run on just about any HP >> 9000 series 200 or 300 machine. (HP 9816, 9826, 9836, 9000/220, 9000/310, >> 9000/320, etc etc etc). > >So I should be able to boot my 9836 from these? Excellent!. I assume I >should use an externaal 9122 drive connected to the 9836's built-in HPIB >port I'm not sure if you'll be able to boot from an external drive or not. I don't mean to be a pessimist but I think you can only boot from a built-in drive. I just looked at the BASIC 5.1 Installation Manual and it doesn't say but when I look at the list of BIN driver files I see HP-IB, DISK, HP9885, CS80 and others. It says HP-IB is required in order to use the HP-IB, DISK provides support for "non CS80 disk drives such as the HP 82901 and the HP 9121", HP9885 provides support for the HP 9885 drive, CS-80 provides support for the CS-80 type disk AND SS-80 type disk. CS-80 also requires installation of the HPIB BIN file. Since they provide these BIN files I have to think that the BootROM does not support them. OTOH the drawings show them cold booting what looks like a HP 9000/300 from an external drive so maybe it is possible. The manual doesn't say a word about what external devices are supported and what aren't prior to loading the BIN files. I've only had completely built OS systems to play with up until lately so I have little experience with minimal OS and builting the OS systems. (the 9836 has 2 interal drives, but they are 5.25" ones, of course). > >As I don't have a 9122, would a 9123 work if I powered it correctly? It should. I have a 9123 with an external PSU on a HP 150 and it works exactly like a 9122 as far as I can tell. Joe PS the command to save a built OS file is STORE SYSTEM filename and not SAVE SYSTEM. > >-tony > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 24 17:31:53 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 18:31:53 -0400 Subject: 8/e paint In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050724183153.00a5bd40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> FWIW department. A friend of mine got some custom paint for some of the old Colins radios mixed up and delivered in spray cans. I don't know where he got it from but I can probably find out. Joe At 12:53 PM 7/24/05 -0400, you wrote: >I just pulled a somewhat parted Typeset-8 out of a very dirty Memphis >basement, and just like the PDP-8/e I had before this, the panel paint is >just starting to peel above the rightmost switches. > >This bugs the hell out of me. I hate peeling paint. > >I am toying with the idea of mixing up some paint to patch the flaws (the >rest of the panel is really great). Is there any interest in 8/e orange >(both shades) touchup paint, or am I the only one that manages to get >8/e's with peels? > >The Typeset came with a DF32/DS32 pair and a Teleype BRPE paper tape punch >(PP67?), but the paper tape panels and electronics were removed years ago. > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 24 18:37:19 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:37:19 -0400 Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050723231250.009aee20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050724193719.00a50210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Tony, You are correct on all counts. I wrote that a long time ago and it was based on what little I could figure out at the time without any documentation so it's not exactly correct. (You can't believe how long it took just to sort those few details out!) I also knowingly left out some details to keep it simple and understandable. For one thing, you do not have to press the space bar to halt the boot process. You can press any key and it will abort the process. BUT if you press a key such as B and it happens to corrospond to one of the boot codes then it will boot that system. Rather than explain the incatricies I just tell people to press the space bar since it should never be assigned as a boot code. Regarding the serial number, IIRC it is stored in an EEPROM in the later machines but in the early ones it is in the BootROM. At least that's what I seem to recall. I've never hacked the hardware on these machines so I'm just going on what I've heard or read. At 07:37 PM 7/24/05 +0100, you wrote: >[Much useful info deleted -- Thanks a lot for this] You're welcome. Good luck getting the OS up and running. I've had a lot of people ask me for copies of the OS so they could get their machines running but I couldn't help them since as I mentioned, a built and useable OS system is all in one file and it's too big to copy to a floppy disk so the only way to distribute it would be to find another hard drive and install the OS there and ship the entire HD to them. Not too practicle. However if you have the individual files (as you do) then you can copy them to a number of floppy disks and simply mail those to potential users. I've only recently gotten a set of installation disks myself so I haven't gotten to play with distributing the stuff yet. I guess you don't have the manuals for this. AFIK I have the full set of manuals for BASIC 5.1 along with a bunch of other useful related HP manuals such as the HP 9826/9836 and HP 9000/300 Series Computer Installation manuals, various peripheral configuration manuals, BASIC 2.1 and 3.0 manuals, HPL manual, Pascal manuals, Self-Study Guide to Instrument Interfacing using HP Basic, FSD Customer Engineering Manual and more. This stuff needs to be made available to the everyone. Al has asked about borrowing the stuff and scanning it and I've told him that he can but we haven't done anythng to make it happen yet. But it's about time that we did. How about it Al? Do you have time to do this stuff yet? If not, is anyone else interested in working on it? BUT I do have to warn you, I went through HELL to get these books and I DO want them back!!!! DON'T MAKE ME HAVE TO COME GET THEM! YOU WON'T LIKE IT! PS I just counted and found 24 manuals and that does not include the BASIC 2.1, BASIC 3.0 and Pascal manuals so I'm guessing that the total will be something like 36 manuals. PSS I also have some useful HP-UX manuals that need to be scanned and posted. Joe > >> letter code displayed next to the desired OS. See >> for more information about this. > >I've taken a quick look, and I think I have a couple of corrections. You >mention that options are listed by their HPIB address, don't you mean DIO >bus select code? A number of the options aren't HPIB devices. > >And you mention the serial number being stored in the boot ROM. AFAIK, >it's stored in a separate 'ID PROM' -- the 9826/9836 boardswapper manual >tells you to remove this chip and put it into the new CPU board if you're >replacing the CPU board. In these machines, only the latest (of 3 >possible) CPU/RAM boards and the CPU/MMU board have this PROM. > > >-tony > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 24 18:40:58 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:40:58 -0400 Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050723231250.009aee20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050724194058.009666a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:38 PM 7/24/05 +0100, you wrote: >Oops, I forgot to say.... > >> I haved played with this in a long time but I can look up the details if >> you need them. > >Not for the moment :-)... Doubless I'll have more questions when I try to >boot the 9836, but I'll probably not have time to work on that machine >for a few months. When I do get it out and start fiddling, of course I'll >mention it here. Yes, do keep me posted on your progress. Maybe by then we can get some of the manuals scanned and posted. This series of computers were the first vintage computers that I collected so I still have a special interest in them. Joe > >-tony > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 24 18:43:48 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:43:48 -0400 Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20050724090721.03aab7a0@pop-server> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050724194348.009de650@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:42 PM 7/24/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> At 08:04 AM 7/24/2005, you wrote: >> >Curiosity for the day - is there any difference between the use of disk >> >and disc when describing floppy drives, hard drives etc.? >> > >I was under the impression that 'Disk' was the American spelling, and was >therefore used for floppies, winchesters, etc. Disc is the English >spelling, and is used for CDs (and DVDs?) I think you're probably right. I've almost always seen it spelled Disk in the US. However one notable exception is HP. They spell it Disc. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 24 18:48:11 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:48:11 -0400 Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: <20050724145733.W11263@shell.lmi.net> References: <1122206674.10241.42.camel@weka.localdomain> <1122206674.10241.42.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050724194811.00965aa0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:14 PM 7/24/05 -0700, Grumpy Ol' Fred wrote: >OB_CCTALK: Do modern (oxymoron?) Japanese, British, and Amurican cars >have "Disc brakes" or "Disk brakes"? (German cars have "disk") What are you, some kind of trouble maker!!! :-) Joe From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jul 24 18:51:21 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:51:21 -0400 Subject: 8/e paint In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050724183153.00a5bd40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050724183153.00a5bd40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42E42979.nailI2211L00I@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > A friend of mine got some custom paint for some of the old Collins > radios mixed up and delivered in spray cans. Good auto-body paint shops can do this for you. Not cheap (I think $25 for the first can, probably cheaper if you buy multiple cans, and this was fifteen years ago so it's probably more now.) Tim. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 24 19:05:23 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 98xx manuals Message-ID: <20050725000523.DAD0517ED3A@bitsavers.org> I guess you don't have the manuals for this. AFIK I have the full set of manuals for BASIC 5.1 along with a bunch of other useful related HP manuals such as the HP 9826/9836 and HP 9000/300 Series Computer Installation manuals, various peripheral configuration manuals, BASIC 2.1 and 3.0 manuals, HPL manual, Pascal manuals, Self-Study Guide to Instrument Interfacing using HP Basic, FSD Customer Engineering Manual and more. This stuff needs to be made available to the everyone. Al has asked about borrowing the stuff and scanning it and I've told him that he can but we haven't done anythng to make it happen yet. But it's about time that we did. How about it Al? Do you have time to do this stuff yet? --- I'll make time to get it done. I have a couple of other manuals to get on line (like the other PASCAL manual and the 9836 service manual) Was talking to a friend of mine today who makes a little Ubicom board and I suggested he implement an HPIB interface on it and implement enough of a emulator to provide an HPIB peripheral to Ethernet interface. Then, you could have a box on the net simulate the rest. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 24 19:12:57 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 17:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GPIB to Ethernet bridge Message-ID: <20050725001257.E9D7317ED46@bitsavers.org> here's his web site. http://www.rvhe.com/ If folks are interested in seeing a bridge, send him some email. He's looking for applications/customers for the board. From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 24 19:15:50 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 01:15:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building Message-ID: <20050725001551.75090.qmail@web25006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > For transmitting tubes (valves), yes, careful power-up is > important, but for computer rated minis, not so much. Not just the Tx valves, all the valves from the synthesiser on were protected, the exception was the audio pre-amp which were the cause of > 50% of shutdowns until replaced by solid state units. > If anything, the a slow power-up is probably protecting the > power supplies more than the tubes. Not in these transmitters. > Weak filaments that lead to burnouts and loose elements that > lead to shorts generally get weeded out quickly, as the tubes > die prematurely. New valves are always run for the guarantee life, modern valves are very poor, more than half are either DOA of fail within the guarantee period. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 24 19:26:49 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 00:26:49 +0000 Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: <20050724145733.W11263@shell.lmi.net> References: <1122206674.10241.42.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050724145733.W11263@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1122251209.10259.229.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 15:14 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > OB_CCTALK: Do modern (oxymoron?) Japanese, British, and Amurican cars > have "Disc brakes" or "Disk brakes"? (German cars have "disk") Both are probably equally common here in the UK, regardless of car (or person!) age. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 19:44:52 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 01:44:52 +0100 Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: References: <0IK500KNC7TAJ95A@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: Maybe someone can answer a computer-tube question for me? I have a large number of 5963 tubes (computer-rated 12AU7s) which I am told "have gold-plated grids to guard against 'sleeping sickness' when used as flip-flops". My question: what is this "sleeping sickness"? Does this relate to the long-periods-at-cutoff mentioned earlier on in this thread? How does having gold-plated grids help this? TIA, Ed. From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jul 24 20:07:51 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:07:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <20050725001551.75090.qmail@web25006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Not just the Tx valves, all the valves from the synthesiser > on were protected, the exception was the audio pre-amp which > were the cause of > 50% of shutdowns until replaced by solid > state units. > > > If anything, the a slow power-up is probably protecting the > > power supplies more than the tubes. > > Not in these transmitters. I am talking specifically about tubes in computers, not in transmitters. Transmitter tube care is a different ball of wax. > New valves are always run for the guarantee life, > modern valves > are very poor, more than half are either DOA of fail within > the guarantee period. The 1970s were the beginning of the end. Most modern tubes suck. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jul 24 20:09:32 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:09:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8/e paint In-Reply-To: <42E42979.nailI2211L00I@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > > A friend of mine got some custom paint for some of the old Collins > > radios mixed up and delivered in spray cans. > > Good auto-body paint shops can do this for you. Not cheap (I think > $25 for the first can, probably cheaper if you buy multiple cans, and > this was fifteen years ago so it's probably more now.) I will probably do it myself (the spraying, that is - if I can find my airbrush). I am just wondering if others have had bad paint experiences with their DEC equipment, and if anyone would need touchup paint. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jul 24 20:10:20 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8/e paint In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050724183153.00a5bd40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > FWIW department. A friend of mine got some custom paint for some of the > old Colins radios mixed up and delivered in spray cans. I don't know where > he got it from but I can probably find out. Thanks for the info. I think I have heard of this in some of the BA mags. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jul 24 20:19:21 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:19:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I have a large number of 5963 tubes (computer-rated 12AU7s) which I am > told "have gold-plated grids to guard against 'sleeping sickness' when > used as flip-flops". > > My question: what is this "sleeping sickness"? Does this relate to the > long-periods-at-cutoff mentioned earlier on in this thread? How does > having gold-plated grids help this? "sleeping sickmess" is basically a bunching up of electrons around the cathode when the tube is cutoff. Think of it as a cloud. When the tube is turned on, this cloud of electrons gets in the way, and must "dissipate" before the grid can once again take control and let electrons from the cathode (the "signal") do their thing. Getting the cloud to go away takes time, so the tubes can not react quickly - exactly what an engineer does not want a high speed digital circuit to do. "Sleeping sickness" was cured mostly by purifying the elements in the tubes - getting rid of imperfections and impurities in the cathodes and grids. Gold plating is a way to do this. It is an expensive way, so most 5963s have normal grids. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jul 24 20:24:53 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:24:53 -0400 Subject: Compupro progress / Console questions ? Message-ID: <20050725012452.FFNQ21628.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Allison, >known but forgotton problem in the 8" world. 765 has a READY sense line >and the 851 is know for changing state of the line during select. >Solution, force ready at the board (jumper) and don't use it. READY >was for detecting disk changes. Tried forcing READY on the original SA-851's, and it still didn't boot. I immagine there must be some other jumpering issues. I'm leaving that for now, as I do have a drive working. >>According to Compupro Docs, the Console port is USER 7 - I have >>setup the board to respond to users 4-7, which is the default setup >>requireed for the console shows in the Compupro docs. As noted >>above, I can select user7 and talk to the console correctly, which >>would suggest that this is all working correctly. > >It is likely initing the ports but may not use any of them. It's >possible the bootable media may use a different port scheme. Its >likely a difference between the boot roms and the BIOS code once >the boot transfers to the OS. Yes, thats one of the possibilities - others are that it is hanging on some other part of the init, or simply crashing (bad RAM etc.) >I assume based on the CPU your runnig CP/m-86 (or any DRI -86) >as the boot roms load a loader then load the OS (bios and all). >So booting is multi step code. Yes, it is CP/M 86 as noted in my original message: >The disks I am using are original Compupro distribution disks >(Can't make copies yet), labled: > >Serial# C86-272-1854 >Version: CP/< 86 (P0 in handwriting) >CP/M 86 1.1 >SYSTEM MASTER >Disk Number 1 >Single Sided - 1024 B/S > >Serial# C86-0272-1854 >Version: 1R >CP/M 86 >SYSTEM MASTER >Disk Number 2 of 2 >Single Sided - 1024 B/S I was hoping someone might recognize these disks and be able to tell me if they are setup for the Interfacer-4, or some other device - or perhaps someone has a known good boot disk for this config (86/87, Disk1A, Interfacer4)? I've had to put it away to get some other more pressing items on the bench, however when I get back to it, I am going to proceed as follows: I've been using an EPROM emulator to load my modified boot - this will also let me change the content of the boot ROM with power-on (while it is switched out of course). The boot rom provides 512 bytes at 00-FF - while it is enabled (out of reset) I can write all of memory, however I can read only the boot ROM - once I hit the enable, the boot-rom disappears and RAM appears. I plan to write a loader which will allow me to load a block of code into RAM at $0200, and to switch the ROM OFF and the RAM ON in the very last instruction of the 0000-01FF block - so it should transition to the code in RAM correctly. Boot the system normally, then load the loader into the boot-rom (via EPROM emulator), Reset should start loader. Send my 8086 monitor. Loader will put it in RAM and transition to it. Then I should be able to browse around the loaded memory image, and perhaps determine what type of console device it wants to communicate with. Main problem is: I don't know much about CP/M-86 - I do not have technical documentation or experience with it. With CP/M-80, it's fairly easy to find the console drivers by following addresses. I have no idea how to do this with CP/M-86 Can you give me any pointers to how to find the console I/O functions under CP/M-86? I do have CP/M-86 running on an APC that I Can experiement with - I will also check the APC docs to see if they contain any useful info. I also have a Rainbow and docs, however I do not know how similar it will be as I seem to recall that the CP/M it has is a special dual-processor version. As always, thoughts, ideas, suggestions etc. are welcome. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From waisun.chia at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 20:55:24 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:55:24 +0800 Subject: 8/e paint In-Reply-To: References: <42E42979.nailI2211L00I@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On 7/25/05, William Donzelli wrote: > I am just wondering if others have had bad paint experiences with their > DEC equipment, and if anyone would need touchup paint. Yeah. My 8/e is suffering from peeling black paint just around the start key... My other 8/m has not peeling paint but the backing layer was mottling, the net effect was that seen through light, the panel was a planetarium, with a lot of holes whereby light would shine right through.. What I did with the 8/m was that I masked out the holes where the LED/bulb were and I sprayed the BACK of the panel with matt black paint. Looks great now! :-) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jul 24 21:23:57 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:23:57 -0400 Subject: Compupro progress / Console questions ? Message-ID: <0IK5006TVVZTRC37@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Compupro progress / Console questions ? > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:24:53 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Hi Allison, > >>known but forgotton problem in the 8" world. 765 has a READY sense line >>and the 851 is know for changing state of the line during select. >>Solution, force ready at the board (jumper) and don't use it. READY >>was for detecting disk changes. > >Tried forcing READY on the original SA-851's, and it still didn't boot. >I immagine there must be some other jumpering issues. I'm leaving that >for now, as I do have a drive working. There is a board level jumper. >>>According to Compupro Docs, the Console port is USER 7 - I have >>>setup the board to respond to users 4-7, which is the default setup >>>requireed for the console shows in the Compupro docs. As noted >>>above, I can select user7 and talk to the console correctly, which >>>would suggest that this is all working correctly. >> >>It is likely initing the ports but may not use any of them. It's >>possible the bootable media may use a different port scheme. Its >>likely a difference between the boot roms and the BIOS code once >>the boot transfers to the OS. > >Yes, thats one of the possibilities - others are that it is hanging >on some other part of the init, or simply crashing (bad RAM etc.) > > >>I assume based on the CPU your runnig CP/m-86 (or any DRI -86) >>as the boot roms load a loader then load the OS (bios and all). >>So booting is multi step code. > >Yes, it is CP/M 86 as noted in my original message: > >>The disks I am using are original Compupro distribution disks >>(Can't make copies yet), labled: >> >>Serial# C86-272-1854 >>Version: CP/< 86 (P0 in handwriting) >>CP/M 86 1.1 >>SYSTEM MASTER >>Disk Number 1 >>Single Sided - 1024 B/S >> >>Serial# C86-0272-1854 >>Version: 1R >>CP/M 86 >>SYSTEM MASTER >>Disk Number 2 of 2 >>Single Sided - 1024 B/S > >I was hoping someone might recognize these disks and be able to tell me >if they are setup for the Interfacer-4, or some other device - or perhaps >someone has a known good boot disk for this config (86/87, Disk1A, >Interfacer4)? > >I've had to put it away to get some other more pressing items on the bench, >however when I get back to it, I am going to proceed as follows: > >I've been using an EPROM emulator to load my modified boot - this will also >let me change the content of the boot ROM with power-on (while it is switched >out of course). > >The boot rom provides 512 bytes at 00-FF - while it is enabled (out of reset) >I can write all of memory, however I can read only the boot ROM - once I hit >the enable, the boot-rom disappears and RAM appears. > >I plan to write a loader which will allow me to load a block of code into >RAM at $0200, and to switch the ROM OFF and the RAM ON in the very last >instruction of the 0000-01FF block - so it should transition to the code in >RAM correctly. > >Boot the system normally, >then load the loader into the boot-rom (via EPROM emulator), >Reset should start loader. >Send my 8086 monitor. >Loader will put it in RAM and transition to it. >Then I should be able to browse around the loaded memory image, >and perhaps determine what type of console device it wants to communicate >with. > >Main problem is: I don't know much about CP/M-86 - I do not have technical >documentation or experience with it. > >With CP/M-80, it's fairly easy to find the console drivers by following >addresses. I have no idea how to do this with CP/M-86 > >Can you give me any pointers to how to find the console I/O functions under >CP/M-86? > >I do have CP/M-86 running on an APC that I Can experiement with - I will also >check the APC docs to see if they contain any useful info. I also have a Rainbow >and docs, however I do not know how similar it will be as I seem to recall that >the CP/M it has is a special dual-processor version. Well I've never had to find the drivers blind. the time I spent with -86 was at the front of the process, creating a working bios so I knew where I was going rather than trying to figure were someone else went. It didn't hurt that I had a boot monitor (subset of DDT in eprom). CP/M 86 is not unlike cpm-80. The rom boot is enough to pull the next boot off disk and usually that loads the loader. The laoder gets dropped at a standard address 0000:0400h sticks in my mind. The loader is really a minimal bdos and bios, enough to find CP/M86.sys and put it at the load address for the system. I don't remember there being dynamic sizing so if there isn't enough ram, Oops, crash. Once loaded the BDOS and BIOS addresses have standard calling locations that are jumps (long jumps) to them. A handy thing would be to disassemble the load file directly rather than finding it ram, if possible. The apc is a good version. The rainbow is really in a different league as the bios is shared with the z80 making it much more complex. Allison From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 24 21:24:40 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:24:40 -0500 Subject: disk versus disc References: <200507241624.j6OGO9LI002863@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <010401c590c0$03816760$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> CCN wrote... > Disc is incorrect unless we're talking about a flying disc, in which case > it's slang for discus. (Although in eight years of competing in track and > field in high school and college, I never heard anyone say "my event is > the > disc".) Wholly incorrect... Disc/Disk is NOT a US/UK thing. Disc is perfectly acceptable. Nor does disc and disk inherently refer to different types of media or drives (at least, not until much later & modern MISuse bastardized it with the CD connotation). At one point (originally), BOTH versions were common. The greek origin is diskos, the latin root is discus. Both are considered acceptable, however, one or the other is generally chosen in a given field of study. HP (and others) refer to disc, DEC (and others) refer to disk. Medical texts always go with disc, as do most engineering texts I'm familiar with. I'm sure there's other fields that standardized on "disk". Mass media (printed) doesn't generally like two different spellings for the same thing, and over time one becomes more common. Not because it's more right, but it's just what the media feels they need to do. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 24 21:30:17 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:30:17 -0500 Subject: classiccmp knowledgebase Message-ID: <012601c590c0$cbe91d60$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> The classiccmp knowledge base will soon be supporting subcategories in addition to the current "major" categories. If anyone has better suggestions on how to name/arrange the categories & subcategory structures, I'm all ears :) Jay From cb at mythtech.net Sun Jul 24 22:00:14 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:00:14 -0400 Subject: disk versus disc Message-ID: >OB_CCTALK: Do modern (oxymoron?) Japanese, British, and Amurican cars >have "Disc brakes" or "Disk brakes"? (German cars have "disk") My 1965 T-Bird said "Disc" on the brake peddle. -chris From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 22:30:59 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:30:59 -0500 Subject: my speccy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/24/05, Arron McLaughlin wrote: > Hi > > I'm Arron, 15, from New Zealand. Hi, Aaron... good to see you on here. > ...This has been my first foray into Sinclair machines. Can't help much with Sinclairs, but I'm sure other people here can. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 22:31:49 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:31:49 -0500 Subject: my speccy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/24/05, Arron McLaughlin wrote: > Hi > > I'm Arron, 15, from New Zealand. Oops... terribly sorry to have misspelled your name, Arron. -ethan From wacarder at earthlink.net Sun Jul 24 22:31:52 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:31:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Blue Panel PDP-11/35 pictures Message-ID: <18300140.1122262313110.JavaMail.root@wamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > I've posted some pictures of the blue panel 11/35 and > a PDP-8a that I recently acquired and got up and running. > > The pictures are at: > > http://www.woffordwitch.com/PDPCollection.asp > > Click on the Blue Panel PDP-11/35 link. After contemplating swapping out the blue front panel for a standard 11/35 front panel, I have decided to leave this one as is, since I've never seen another blue front panel 11/35 running. I have only heard of one other one like this, so I will keep this one as-is, since it seems to be somewhat unusual and a conversation piece, and.... IT WORKS! Ashley From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Jul 24 22:50:39 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:50:39 -0700 Subject: Blue Panel PDP-11/35 pictures In-Reply-To: <18300140.1122262313110.JavaMail.root@wamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <18300140.1122262313110.JavaMail.root@wamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200507242050.39785.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 24 July 2005 20:31, Ashley Carder wrote: > After contemplating swapping out the blue front panel for > a standard 11/35 front panel, I have decided to leave this > one as is, since I've never seen another blue front panel > 11/35 running. I have only heard of one other one like > this, so I will keep this one as-is, since it seems to be > somewhat unusual and a conversation piece, and.... > > IT WORKS! > > Ashley I'm with you! The pictures look great - it's unique - it works! Let it live life singing the blues... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From arron.owns at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 01:05:20 2005 From: arron.owns at gmail.com (Arron McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 23:05:20 -0700 Subject: my speccy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/24/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/24/05, Arron McLaughlin wrote: > > Hi > > > > I'm Arron, 15, from New Zealand. > > Hi, Aaron... good to see you on here. > > > ...This has been my first foray into Sinclair machines. > > Can't help much with Sinclairs, but I'm sure other people here can. > > -ethan Thanks. Hows things? I got your email on the TIL311 displays on ebay, unfortunately I didn't have anything in paypal. I've still been meaning to put the Elf 2k board together, might see if i can reconfigure the GAL on it and get it working with a character LCD instead (through a small PIC perhaps?). > Oops... terribly sorry to have misspelled your name, Arron. No worries :) From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Jul 25 01:11:44 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 01:11:44 -0500 Subject: Sage II computer In-Reply-To: <42DFEE32.9010106@pacbell.net> References: <42DFEE32.9010106@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <42E482A0.2050706@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > So yesterday (or was it the day before) I won the following Sage II > computer on ebay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5218919241 ... > EBay searches have not turned up any manuals for this machine. Other > O/Ss other than the p-System were used by this machine, eg, CP/M 68K. > If anybody has docs, software, or pointers to same, I'd appreciate > references to it. ... I've put up a small web page on this machine since I couldn't find even this much elsewhere on the web. Again, I solicit contributions of docs, disks, disk images, etc for free/trade/$, so that I can learn more about the machine and expand the web page: http://www.thebattles.net/sage/sage.html The page has a number of pictures of the machine inside & outside. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jul 25 03:32:19 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 01:32:19 -0700 Subject: A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing Message-ID: <42E4A38D.1BC26FD5@cs.ubc.ca> So a friend and I headed out for a run today and on the way to the trails decided to take the shortcut across the lands of our friendly neighbourhood giant big-oil corp. oil refinery. This refinery was nearly 100 years old until it was mostly decommissioned and dismantled in the 1990s, although a portion of it still operates as a storage/transfer station for certain products. So after a little bushwacking and fence-hopping we were running down gravel roads between cement pads filled with weeds, cut-off steel stairways to nowhere, pipeline sections poking out of the ground and assorted other heavy-industrial detritus, while keeping an eye and ear out for the possible security-person-containing-vehicle to come bouncing over the hill. Off to one side of our route was one very old two/three story red-brick building that has yet to be demolished. This building looks like it could have been built in the 20s or 30s. We decided to take a peek. The big two-storey service door was open to the skies, but the building was still filled with equipment: giant motor/pump sets, engines/generators, steel walkways, pipes everywhere, peeling paint, all dead and quiet, just pigeons in the rafters and the occasional whoooosh from some pressure vent outside to spook us. My friend and I went upstairs into a room with the floor and shelves littered with crates, small motors, bits of equipment, cabling, etc. On one wall was a green & black, full-height, double-wide equipment cabinet, one door half open and large circuit boards visible in a rack. My brain started to tweek. In the mid-70s, as a high-school student, I and a few other students had a visit to the refinery one day to be shown the computer system that ran the refining operation. About the only thing I remember from that day is that it was a Foxboro real-time process-control computer that had been installed some years earlier. I had figured it was now long gone from when the refinery was decommissioned and the newer buildings, where the computer was likely to be located, were demolished. But there's not a lot of reason other than a computer system for circuit boards that large to be hanging around an oil refinery. Sure enough, the cabinet had a little "FOXBORO" logo up in one corner. Looking around a little more turned up a very large floor-standing video console with "FOX-1" in addition to the "FOXBORO" logo on it, a GE termi-net printer/terminal, and a sub-room packed with racks of what appear to be the I/O interface/drive equipment (where all the wires from the sensor/control points around the refinery terminate and are interfaced to the processor). Pulling a couple of the circuit boards from the main cabinet suggests the processor is TTL-based, although there were date codes from the early 80s so it may have been upgraded from the 70s. The console was quite cool, I speculate from it's size and complexity it may have been an early graphics console that displayed process equipment/flow diagrams; date codes on ICs in it were still early 70s. Didn't see any disc or mass-storage device or even paper-tape I/O. Considering it's real-time application perhaps it functioned without a disk, just booted the whole system (from what?) at startup and survived in RAM. I don't know a lot about Foxboro, I believe they were a spin-off or startup company in the 60s that were early entrants into the (then small and state-of-the-art) area of computer-based real-time process-control for large industrial plants. They are one of those names you don't run across much unless you run in those circles. Additional comments about Foxboro and their systems from those who may know more appreciated. My friend finally dragged me out and we continued on our run into the forest with a little dip in the lake on the way home. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 25 05:06:48 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:06:48 +0000 Subject: A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <42E4A38D.1BC26FD5@cs.ubc.ca> References: <42E4A38D.1BC26FD5@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1122286008.11835.2.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 01:32 -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: > So a friend and I headed out for a run today and on the way to the trails > decided to take the shortcut across the lands of our friendly neighbourhood > giant big-oil corp. oil refinery. This refinery was nearly 100 years old until > it was mostly decommissioned and dismantled in the 1990s that's a nice story - I do quite a bit of that sort of exploration, never found anywhere with computers left inside though! Generally the land's at such a premium over here that places don't stay abandoned for long, and the scrappers seem to move in minutes after a place closes down and remove all the interesting interior stuff. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 25 05:09:17 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:09:17 +0000 Subject: Blue Panel PDP-11/35 pictures In-Reply-To: <18300140.1122262313110.JavaMail.root@wamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <18300140.1122262313110.JavaMail.root@wamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1122286157.11835.6.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 23:31 -0400, Ashley Carder wrote: > > I've posted some pictures of the blue panel 11/35 and > > a PDP-8a that I recently acquired and got up and running. > > > > The pictures are at: > > > > http://www.woffordwitch.com/PDPCollection.asp > > > > Click on the Blue Panel PDP-11/35 link. > > After contemplating swapping out the blue front panel for > a standard 11/35 front panel, I have decided to leave this > one as is, since I've never seen another blue front panel > 11/35 running. I was once told that the blue machines went into medical environments whilst the usual red/purple were for other commercial sites. Is that actually the case? Personally I much prefer the look of the blue machines! cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 25 05:19:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:19:11 +0000 Subject: my speccy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1122286751.11852.16.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 03:39 -0700, Arron McLaughlin wrote: > Hi > > I'm Arron, 15, from New Zealand. Hiya and welcome. Whereabouts in NZ? I used to find there were some nice pickings around the north island when I was there - still lots to find in junk shops and scrapyards (unlike here in the UK!). Plus of course garage sales were a lot more common in NZ and local tips tended to be much more geared toward recycling, so old machines would be picked out and put up for sale for a couple of bucks... > Yesterday I just finished piecing together two dead spectrums into one > working unit. I had a few problems with screen quality so I replaced > the modulator with a little composite circuit. Better quality, though > flicker still remains.Might add a power switch also. This has been my > first foray into Sinclair machines. The speccy was what got me started in computing. Amazing little machines for the price really - the C64 was probably better (at least graphics- wise) but more expensive, and the BBC B was a real killer, but probably twice the price of a speccy. I got rid of my Sinclair collection last year to concentrate on some of my other machines, but I kept one 48K machines (and all my games from way back when) for sentimental reasons... > Are there any other New Zealanders here? I met Ethan Dicks a while ago > on his way through the country. It doesn't seem to be as much of a hobby there as it is in the UK, US etc. - which probably means there's scope for you to build up a really nice collection if you so wanted. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 25 05:21:56 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:21:56 +0000 Subject: The Pioneer Anomaly (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1122286916.11852.20.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-22 at 17:32 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Here's a response I received today from the Pioneer Anomaly team, the > folks who have the data tapes from the Pioneer missions that were at risk > of being lost: Interesting stuff. Are there good sites out there which explain the Pioneer (and Voyager) missions? I've only ever found bits (albeit good ones) here and there, rather than any site which gives a good rundown of everything. From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Jul 25 06:51:00 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:51:00 +1000 Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46207988-9532-4D18-9CF3-358BA5F623CA@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 25/07/2005, at 2:38 AM, chris wrote: > > Disk = short for diskette, refers to floppies, and when a hard > drive is > called a "disk" is used for that as well simply because that is what > floppies were called at the time hard drives became cheaper and more > mainstream. I was using disk to refer to hard drives well before floppies were invented. Err, what I meant to say was "My father used to ....", I can't possibly be that old :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Jul 25 06:57:53 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:57:53 +1000 Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: <20050724145733.W11263@shell.lmi.net> References: <1122206674.10241.42.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050724145733.W11263@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 25/07/2005, at 8:14 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > OB_CCTALK: Do modern (oxymoron?) Japanese, British, and Amurican cars > have "Disc brakes" or "Disk brakes"? (German cars have "disk") Interestingly my very recently acquired new German car (major expense for a major birthday - see previous post regarding using disk well before floppies were invented) refers to the brakes as disc brakes and I've never seen such brakes referred to as disk brakes before. Of course the manual might have been rewritten in Australian English (more probably British). I have always referred to disk drives as disk, not disc even though my Computer Science lecturer (yes, there was exactly one back in the "Good Old Days") always referred to them as disc drives. I'd just assumed this was because he'd learnt about computing at Cambridge and used the English spelling whereas the vast majority of the computers I've ever used are American. I can only think of two that aren't and they're both Japanese (Sharp and Epson). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jul 25 07:47:06 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:47:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: <1122206674.10241.42.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1122206674.10241.42.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <2303.207.237.217.134.1122295626.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Greetings from Manhattan :D > > Curiousity for the day - is there any difference between the use of disk > and disc when describing floppy drives, hard drives etc.? For no other reason than 'I have for years' I use DISK for magnetic media and DISC for Cds etc, probably because the 'compact disc' and 'laserdisc' logos used the 'c' instead of the 'k' and the early floppy drive adverts and manuals I can remember used the 'k'. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 07:48:19 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:48:19 -0400 Subject: Blue Panel PDP-11/35 pictures In-Reply-To: <1122286157.11835.6.camel@weka.localdomain> References: < <18300140.1122262313110.JavaMail.root@wamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <18300140.1122262313110.JavaMail.root@wamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725084819.009d89d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:09 AM 7/25/05 +0000, Jules wrote: > >I was once told that the blue machines went into medical environments >whilst the usual red/purple were for other commercial sites. Is that >actually the case? > >Personally I much prefer the look of the blue machines! > I have a blue machine exactly like the one shown except that it also says Tektronix on it. I don't know much about it except that it came out of some kind of test system that had four huge racks bolted together. It had PT reader and punch and some nice disk drives on it originally but they dumped the entire thing off of a truck and smashed the PT stuff and probably didn't help the disk drives. I got out as much of the undamaged stuff as I could along with some of the cabling but it was laying on it's back so the only access was through the front and I had to lift everything straight up and hold it there while I unbolted it. It was struggle to get the CPU out and I didn't even try ot get the disk drives. It had LOT of Tektronix made IO interfaces in it. I later found a second machine with the same blue panel but it was really beat up and the entire chassis was badly twisted. I pulled the cards and panel out of it for spares for the first machine but I've never done anything with any of it. PS the first machine had processor cards made by QED in it. Does anyone know anything about them or have any docs for them? Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 08:14:44 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:14:44 -0400 Subject: HP 98xx manuals In-Reply-To: <20050725000523.DAD0517ED3A@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725091444.00a54100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Al, OK I'm packing up a box of HP books for you. I'm including: 1) Using HP BASIC for Instrument Control, a Self-Stufy Course 2) BASIC 5.0/5.1 Graphics Techniques 3) Installing, Using and Maintaining the BASIC 5.0 System 4) Pascal 3.1 User's Guide 5) Installation Guide HP 9000 Series 200 Model 226 and Model 236. 6) BASIC 5.0 Interfacing Techniques, Volume 1: General Topics These are all in the grey HP three ring binders and are all short (roughly 8" x 8 1/2") books. These cover a variety of topics and should make a good start. I specificly included the Installation book (#3) since it contains the information that Tony needs. It's probably the starting point for everything esle but it's actually a very difficult book to find and the reference manuals and such don't cover such basic topics as how to boot the machines or how to create or save the operating system. I'll probably ship this box today via USPS Media mail. I'll also go ahead and start packing some more books. Joe At 05:05 PM 7/24/05 -0700, you wrote: > > I guess you don't have the manuals for this. AFIK I have the full set of >manuals for BASIC 5.1 along with a bunch of other useful related HP manuals >such as the HP 9826/9836 and HP 9000/300 Series Computer Installation >manuals, various peripheral configuration manuals, BASIC 2.1 and 3.0 >manuals, HPL manual, Pascal manuals, Self-Study Guide to Instrument >Interfacing using HP Basic, FSD Customer Engineering Manual and more. This >stuff needs to be made available to the everyone. Al has asked about >borrowing the stuff and scanning it and I've told him that he can but we >haven't done anythng to make it happen yet. But it's about time that we >did. How about it Al? Do you have time to do this stuff yet? > > >--- > > >I'll make time to get it done. I have a couple of other manuals to get >on line (like the other PASCAL manual and the 9836 service manual) > >Was talking to a friend of mine today who makes a little Ubicom board >and I suggested he implement an HPIB interface on it and implement >enough of a emulator to provide an HPIB peripheral to Ethernet interface. >Then, you could have a box on the net simulate the rest. > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jul 25 08:58:27 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:58:27 -0400 Subject: Blue Panel PDP-11/35 pictures References: <18300140.1122262313110.JavaMail.root@wamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1122286157.11835.6.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <17124.61443.886076.654002@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 23:31 -0400, Ashley Carder wrote: >> > I've posted some pictures of the blue panel 11/35 and > a PDP-8a >> that I recently acquired and got up and running. >> > >> > The pictures are at: >> > >> > http://www.woffordwitch.com/PDPCollection.asp >> > >> > Click on the Blue Panel PDP-11/35 link. >> >> After contemplating swapping out the blue front panel for a >> standard 11/35 front panel, I have decided to leave this one as >> is, since I've never seen another blue front panel 11/35 running. Jules> I was once told that the blue machines went into medical Jules> environments whilst the usual red/purple were for other Jules> commercial sites. Is that actually the case? No. I'm not sure about all the cases, but the CTS series ("commercial timesharing system" -- RSTS/E with some stuff packaged along with it) tended to be blue. They also often came in "low boy" cabinets -- about 5 feet tall rather than the 6+ foot H960s. paul From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Jul 25 09:07:31 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:07:31 -0400 Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: <200507250649.j6P6nSmK001226@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200507251407.j6PE7LHI015656@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: Curiousity for the day - is there any difference between the use of disk and disc when describing floppy drives, hard drives etc.? I just wondered if one is technically right and the other wrong when it comes to computing... ***** The answer is that there is a technically right and wrong usage and difference between disk and disc. DISK, with a "K", is technically correct for magnetic media (e.g. floppy disk) DISC, with a "C", is technically correct for optical media (e.g. Laser disc, CD-ROM and DVD discs) From jrice54 at blackcube.org Mon Jul 25 09:05:46 2005 From: jrice54 at blackcube.org (James Rice) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:05:46 -0500 Subject: A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <42E4A38D.1BC26FD5@cs.ubc.ca> References: <42E4A38D.1BC26FD5@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <42E4F1BA.80802@blackcube.org> I knew Foxboro was old but didn't realize they were founded in 1908. I remember working on pneumatic controls from Foxboro that were date coded in the 1930's. This was in 1972-4 time frame at Anderson-Clayton Foods in Sherman, TX. This was a vegetable oil refinery that closed in 2001-02 after being sold around 5-6 times since 1984.. James Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I don't know a lot about Foxboro, I believe they were a spin-off or startup >company in the 60s that were early entrants into the (then small and >state-of-the-art) area of computer-based real-time process-control for large >industrial plants. They are one of those names you don't run across much unless >you run in those circles. > > > > -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From jrice54 at blackcube.org Mon Jul 25 09:00:01 2005 From: jrice54 at blackcube.org (James Rice) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:00:01 -0500 Subject: A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <42E4A38D.1BC26FD5@cs.ubc.ca> References: <42E4A38D.1BC26FD5@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <42E4F061.5080304@blackcube.org> Foxboro is an old very large control and instrumentation company located of all places, Foxboro, MA. Back in the old pneumatic control days until the mid to late 1980's Foxboro was the gold standard of instruments in a process industry. They have always had a reputation of being very proud of their products. They are now part of Invensys along with Robertshaw and some other old line instrument makers. http://www.foxboro.com/us/eng/Homepage Anything Foxboro produced will be highly propertiery and information will be hard to find outside of Foxboro or a plant that happens to own the equipment. I worked in vegetable oil refining for almost 30 years as a electrical and control contractor. I still have dreams of those old plants. James Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I don't know a lot about Foxboro, I believe they were a spin-off or startup >company in the 60s that were early entrants into the (then small and >state-of-the-art) area of computer-based real-time process-control for large >industrial plants. They are one of those names you don't run across much unless >you run in those circles. > > Additional comments about Foxboro and their systems from those who may know >more appreciated. > > > > -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 09:44:05 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:44:05 -0400 Subject: HP 98xx manuals Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725104405.00991c20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Al & et al, I found another handy sized box so I packed up some more books. This lot includes: 1) Peripheral Installation Guide, HP 9000 Series 200/300 Computers & 35731 HP Monochrome Monitor Installation Guide 2) Using the BASIC 5.0/5.1 System, HP 9000 Series 200/300 Computers 3) FSD CE Handbook including Model 226/236 Installation Guide & Models 26 and 36 CE Handbook & Model 220 Installation Guide & Installation Notes for various cards 4) Pascal 3.0 User's Guide 5) Installation Reference HP 9000 Series 300 Computers Model 375 & BootROM Configuration Mode User's Manual, HP 9000 Products & Use with Terminals and Monitors, Series 300 Computers 6) BASIC Language Reference Volume 2: O-Z, HP 9000 Series 200/300 These are also "short" manuals in three ring binders. BTW I have some HP-UX manuals but some of them are paperback bound. Can you scan them without damaging them? These should also get into today mail. If I can find more boxs, I'll pack more books. Joe Previous Al, OK I'm packing up a box of HP books for you. I'm including: 1) Using HP BASIC for Instrument Control, a Self-Stufy Course 2) BASIC 5.0/5.1 Graphics Techniques 3) Installing, Using and Maintaining the BASIC 5.0 System 4) Pascal 3.1 User's Guide 5) Installation Guide HP 9000 Series 200 Model 226 and Model 236. 6) BASIC 5.0 Interfacing Techniques, Volume 1: General Topics These are all in the grey HP three ring binders and are all short (roughly 8" x 8 1/2") books. These cover a variety of topics and should make a good start. I specificly included the Installation book (#3) since it contains the information that Tony needs. It's probably the starting point for everything esle but it's actually a very difficult book to find and the reference manuals and such don't cover such basic topics as how to boot the machines or how to create or save the operating system. I'll probably ship this box today via USPS Media mail. I'll also go ahead and start packing some more books. Joe At 05:05 PM 7/24/05 -0700, you wrote: > > I guess you don't have the manuals for this. AFIK I have the full set of >manuals for BASIC 5.1 along with a bunch of other useful related HP manuals >such as the HP 9826/9836 and HP 9000/300 Series Computer Installation >manuals, various peripheral configuration manuals, BASIC 2.1 and 3.0 >manuals, HPL manual, Pascal manuals, Self-Study Guide to Instrument >Interfacing using HP Basic, FSD Customer Engineering Manual and more. This >stuff needs to be made available to the everyone. Al has asked about >borrowing the stuff and scanning it and I've told him that he can but we >haven't done anythng to make it happen yet. But it's about time that we >did. How about it Al? Do you have time to do this stuff yet? > > >--- > > >I'll make time to get it done. I have a couple of other manuals to get >on line (like the other PASCAL manual and the 9836 service manual) > >Was talking to a friend of mine today who makes a little Ubicom board >and I suggested he implement an HPIB interface on it and implement >enough of a emulator to provide an HPIB peripheral to Ethernet interface. >Then, you could have a box on the net simulate the rest. > > From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Jul 25 10:02:01 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:02:01 -0400 Subject: HP 98xx manuals In-Reply-To: <20050725000523.DAD0517ED3A@bitsavers.org> References: <20050725000523.DAD0517ED3A@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050725105943.0742d0d8@mail.netsync.net> HP 9000/300 manuals!!!? Bring 'em on! Especially 9000/340 and up models. At 20:05 24-07-05, Al Kossow wrote: > I guess you don't have the manuals for this. AFIK I have the full set of >manuals for BASIC 5.1 along with a bunch of other useful related HP manuals >such as the HP 9826/9836 and HP 9000/300 Series Computer Installation >manuals, various peripheral configuration manuals, BASIC 2.1 and 3.0 >manuals, HPL manual, Pascal manuals, Self-Study Guide to Instrument >Interfacing using HP Basic, FSD Customer Engineering Manual and more. This >stuff needs to be made available to the everyone. Al has asked about >borrowing the stuff and scanning it and I've told him that he can but we >haven't done anythng to make it happen yet. But it's about time that we >did. How about it Al? Do you have time to do this stuff yet? Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 25 10:23:29 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:23:29 -0700 Subject: HP 98xx manuals Message-ID: <657158f977443f3b0079f23052013665@bitsavers.org> > HP 9000/300 manuals!!!? Bring 'em on! Especially 9000/340 and up models. Anything that new is likely to be content-free. The 2xx series was moderately well documented (schems for the DIO interfaces, even) But by the mid-80's, HP had gone to board-swapper level docs in their CE manuals. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 10:22:08 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:22:08 -0400 Subject: HP 98xx manuals Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725112208.00a4c850@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Al & et al, OK, Third box! 1) HPL Operating Manual contains HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update for the HP 9826 and 9836 Computers, HP 9000 Series Computers Model 216/226/236 HPL Operating Manual, portions of a HP 3060 manual (the 3060 is a board test system that used a derivative of HPL called BTL (Board Test Language)), HPL Condensed Reference (photocopy) and HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update for the HP 9826 Computer (photocopy). 2) BASIC 3.0 Interfacing Techniques 3) Configuration Reference Manual includes two different Memory Configuration Wheels (maybe you can take them apart and scan everything then people can print it all out and make their own), Infotek Systems AM Series Memory Baord Instation and User's Manual, HP A1401A DIO-I Slot Upgrade Installation Guide, HP 9000 Series 300 Computer Systems Pricing Information (Oct 1988), HP 9000 Series 300 Models 310 and 320 Hardware Technical Data (Sept 1986), HP 9000 Series 300 Computers Configuration Reference Manual and several Installation Notes for HP memory cards. 4) Service Manual includes HP 98270F Powerfail Option Installation for the HP 9826 and 9836 Computers, HP 9000 Series 200 Computers Model 226/236 Service Manual. 5) BASIC Utilities Library for the HP Series 200 Computers includes some interesting Installation Notes and Programming Notes in the back including one on setting up the BASIC ROM card, also a brochure on the HP Series 200 Software available from HP. These are all in full size (8 1/2" x 11") three ring HP binders. Had enough yet Al? Or should I keep going? :-) Joe Previous I found another handy sized box so I packed up some more books. This lot includes: 1) Peripheral Installation Guide, HP 9000 Series 200/300 Computers & 35731 HP Monochrome Monitor Installation Guide 2) Using the BASIC 5.0/5.1 System, HP 9000 Series 200/300 Computers 3) FSD CE Handbook including Model 226/236 Installation Guide & Models 26 and 36 CE Handbook & Model 220 Installation Guide & Installation Notes for various cards 4) Pascal 3.0 User's Guide 5) Installation Reference HP 9000 Series 300 Computers Model 375 & BootROM Configuration Mode User's Manual, HP 9000 Products & Use with Terminals and Monitors, Series 300 Computers 6) BASIC Language Reference Volume 2: O-Z, HP 9000 Series 200/300 These are also "short" manuals in three ring binders. BTW I have some HP-UX manuals but some of them are paperback bound. Can you scan them without damaging them? These should also get into today mail. If I can find more boxs, I'll pack more books. Joe Previous Al, OK I'm packing up a box of HP books for you. I'm including: 1) Using HP BASIC for Instrument Control, a Self-Stufy Course 2) BASIC 5.0/5.1 Graphics Techniques 3) Installing, Using and Maintaining the BASIC 5.0 System 4) Pascal 3.1 User's Guide 5) Installation Guide HP 9000 Series 200 Model 226 and Model 236. 6) BASIC 5.0 Interfacing Techniques, Volume 1: General Topics These are all in the grey HP three ring binders and are all short (roughly 8" x 8 1/2") books. These cover a variety of topics and should make a good start. I specificly included the Installation book (#3) since it contains the information that Tony needs. It's probably the starting point for everything esle but it's actually a very difficult book to find and the reference manuals and such don't cover such basic topics as how to boot the machines or how to create or save the operating system. I'll probably ship this box today via USPS Media mail. I'll also go ahead and start packing some more books. Joe At 05:05 PM 7/24/05 -0700, you wrote: > > I guess you don't have the manuals for this. AFIK I have the full set of >manuals for BASIC 5.1 along with a bunch of other useful related HP manuals >such as the HP 9826/9836 and HP 9000/300 Series Computer Installation >manuals, various peripheral configuration manuals, BASIC 2.1 and 3.0 >manuals, HPL manual, Pascal manuals, Self-Study Guide to Instrument >Interfacing using HP Basic, FSD Customer Engineering Manual and more. This >stuff needs to be made available to the everyone. Al has asked about >borrowing the stuff and scanning it and I've told him that he can but we >haven't done anythng to make it happen yet. But it's about time that we >did. How about it Al? Do you have time to do this stuff yet? > > >--- > > >I'll make time to get it done. I have a couple of other manuals to get >on line (like the other PASCAL manual and the 9836 service manual) > >Was talking to a friend of mine today who makes a little Ubicom board >and I suggested he implement an HPIB interface on it and implement >enough of a emulator to provide an HPIB peripheral to Ethernet interface. >Then, you could have a box on the net simulate the rest. > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 25 10:29:42 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:29:42 -0700 Subject: FOX-1 (was A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing ) Message-ID: <2c11fb3b67c897f860c482d862746830@bitsavers.org> OMG! This is a 24 bit computer that Bob Supnik knows a lot about. It has an interesting history, started out as something for the military and Foxboro bought out the production run. Foxboro switched to DEC for their later products. I have the docs on bitsavers http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/foxboro This machine needs to be saved, if that's possible. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 10:33:33 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:33:33 -0400 Subject: HP 98xx manuals In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050725105943.0742d0d8@mail.netsync.net> References: <20050725000523.DAD0517ED3A@bitsavers.org> <20050725000523.DAD0517ED3A@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725113333.00a4d6d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:02 AM 7/25/05 -0400, Christian Fandt wrote: >HP 9000/300 manuals!!!? Bring 'em on! Especially 9000/340 and up models. OK Some will be on their way to Al today. Maybe you can bribe him to put the 300 Series stuff at the top of the stack :-) BTW you'll LOVE that fat Installation Reference Manual in the second lot! It has tons of information on ALL of the HP periperals. It's one of the most useful manuals that I have. Joe > >At 20:05 24-07-05, Al Kossow wrote: > >> I guess you don't have the manuals for this. AFIK I have the full set of >>manuals for BASIC 5.1 along with a bunch of other useful related HP manuals >>such as the HP 9826/9836 and HP 9000/300 Series Computer Installation >>manuals, various peripheral configuration manuals, BASIC 2.1 and 3.0 >>manuals, HPL manual, Pascal manuals, Self-Study Guide to Instrument >>Interfacing using HP Basic, FSD Customer Engineering Manual and more. This >>stuff needs to be made available to the everyone. Al has asked about >>borrowing the stuff and scanning it and I've told him that he can but we >>haven't done anythng to make it happen yet. But it's about time that we >>did. How about it Al? Do you have time to do this stuff yet? > >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 25 10:38:38 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:38:38 -0700 Subject: HP 98xx manuals Message-ID: <7e9ecfc9fcfeae10334e6d26e8adaee0@bitsavers.org> > Had enough yet Al? Or should I keep going? :-) May as well keep going. I don't have a job right now, so I can work on this full-time for a few months. From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Jul 25 10:44:03 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:44:03 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: FOX-1 (was A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing ) Message-ID: <11967415.1122306243856.JavaMail.root@wamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > OMG! > > This is a 24 bit computer that Bob Supnik knows a lot about. It has an > interesting history, started out as something for the military and > Foxboro bought out the production run. Foxboro switched to DEC for their > later products. > > I have the docs on bitsavers > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/foxboro > > This machine needs to be saved, if that's possible. Al, I'm curious - do you have any idea how many (if any) known specimens of these Foxboro are still around? From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 10:47:36 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:47:36 -0400 Subject: HP 98xx manuals (3rd box+) Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725114736.00a2be30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Ok that box wasn't quite full so I'm adding these loose manuals: 6) HP Series 200 Computers 9888A Bus Expander Installation and Service. 7) HP 98644A Asynchronous Serial interface Refeence Manual. 8) HP 98620 Direct Memroy Access Controller Installation Note. 9) HP 98625B HP-IB High Speed Disc Interface Hardware Reference Manual 10) HP 98622A GPIO Interface Installation. 11) HP 82906A Printer Owner's manual. 12) HP 98626A RS-232 Interface Installation. Joe Al & et al, OK, Third box! 1) HPL Operating Manual contains HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update for the HP 9826 and 9836 Computers, HP 9000 Series Computers Model 216/226/236 HPL Operating Manual, portions of a HP 3060 manual (the 3060 is a board test system that used a derivative of HPL called BTL (Board Test Language)), HPL Condensed Reference (photocopy) and HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update for the HP 9826 Computer (photocopy). 2) BASIC 3.0 Interfacing Techniques 3) Configuration Reference Manual includes two different Memory Configuration Wheels (maybe you can take them apart and scan everything then people can print it all out and make their own), Infotek Systems AM Series Memory Baord Instation and User's Manual, HP A1401A DIO-I Slot Upgrade Installation Guide, HP 9000 Series 300 Computer Systems Pricing Information (Oct 1988), HP 9000 Series 300 Models 310 and 320 Hardware Technical Data (Sept 1986), HP 9000 Series 300 Computers Configuration Reference Manual and several Installation Notes for HP memory cards. 4) Service Manual includes HP 98270F Powerfail Option Installation for the HP 9826 and 9836 Computers, HP 9000 Series 200 Computers Model 226/236 Service Manual. 5) BASIC Utilities Library for the HP Series 200 Computers includes some interesting Installation Notes and Programming Notes in the back including one on setting up the BASIC ROM card, also a brochure on the HP Series 200 Software available from HP. These are all in full size (8 1/2" x 11") three ring HP binders. Had enough yet Al? Or should I keep going? :-) Joe Previous I found another handy sized box so I packed up some more books. This lot includes: 1) Peripheral Installation Guide, HP 9000 Series 200/300 Computers & 35731 HP Monochrome Monitor Installation Guide 2) Using the BASIC 5.0/5.1 System, HP 9000 Series 200/300 Computers 3) FSD CE Handbook including Model 226/236 Installation Guide & Models 26 and 36 CE Handbook & Model 220 Installation Guide & Installation Notes for various cards 4) Pascal 3.0 User's Guide 5) Installation Reference HP 9000 Series 300 Computers Model 375 & BootROM Configuration Mode User's Manual, HP 9000 Products & Use with Terminals and Monitors, Series 300 Computers 6) BASIC Language Reference Volume 2: O-Z, HP 9000 Series 200/300 These are also "short" manuals in three ring binders. BTW I have some HP-UX manuals but some of them are paperback bound. Can you scan them without damaging them? These should also get into today mail. If I can find more boxs, I'll pack more books. Joe Previous Al, OK I'm packing up a box of HP books for you. I'm including: 1) Using HP BASIC for Instrument Control, a Self-Stufy Course 2) BASIC 5.0/5.1 Graphics Techniques 3) Installing, Using and Maintaining the BASIC 5.0 System 4) Pascal 3.1 User's Guide 5) Installation Guide HP 9000 Series 200 Model 226 and Model 236. 6) BASIC 5.0 Interfacing Techniques, Volume 1: General Topics These are all in the grey HP three ring binders and are all short (roughly 8" x 8 1/2") books. These cover a variety of topics and should make a good start. I specificly included the Installation book (#3) since it contains the information that Tony needs. It's probably the starting point for everything esle but it's actually a very difficult book to find and the reference manuals and such don't cover such basic topics as how to boot the machines or how to create or save the operating system. I'll probably ship this box today via USPS Media mail. I'll also go ahead and start packing some more books. Joe At 05:05 PM 7/24/05 -0700, you wrote: > > I guess you don't have the manuals for this. AFIK I have the full set of >manuals for BASIC 5.1 along with a bunch of other useful related HP manuals >such as the HP 9826/9836 and HP 9000/300 Series Computer Installation >manuals, various peripheral configuration manuals, BASIC 2.1 and 3.0 >manuals, HPL manual, Pascal manuals, Self-Study Guide to Instrument >Interfacing using HP Basic, FSD Customer Engineering Manual and more. This >stuff needs to be made available to the everyone. Al has asked about >borrowing the stuff and scanning it and I've told him that he can but we >haven't done anythng to make it happen yet. But it's about time that we >did. How about it Al? Do you have time to do this stuff yet? > > >--- > > >I'll make time to get it done. I have a couple of other manuals to get >on line (like the other PASCAL manual and the 9836 service manual) > >Was talking to a friend of mine today who makes a little Ubicom board >and I suggested he implement an HPIB interface on it and implement >enough of a emulator to provide an HPIB peripheral to Ethernet interface. >Then, you could have a box on the net simulate the rest. > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 25 10:50:40 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:50:40 -0700 Subject: A little more Foxboro history Message-ID: <6b312089865c44c6e3693a3351f1ad93@bitsavers.org> From some Foxboro brochure scans that I have: M/97400 - Mar 1964 based on the PDP-5 SPC400 - Apr 1969 based on the original PDP-8 FOX-1 - Jan 1971 FOX-2 - Jan 1972 based on the PDP-11/20 I'll see about getting these up on bitsavers as well. The Fox-1 CPU cabinet is pretty strange. It is 'X' shaped. From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Mon Jul 25 10:54:56 2005 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:54:56 -0400 Subject: my speccy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E2C32A1-E9BD-4021-BE24-9777B48C3744@mind-to-mind.com> On Jul 24, 2005, at 11:30 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/24/05, Arron McLaughlin wrote: > >> Hi >> >> I'm Arron, 15, from New Zealand. I'm originally from NZ too... my first personal machine was a Sinclair ZX80. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 25 10:57:46 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:57:46 -0700 Subject: FOX-1 (was A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing ) Message-ID: Al, I'm curious - do you have any idea how many (if any) known specimens of these Foxboro are still around? -- This is the only one I know of. Sellam may know if the CHM has one. I don't think there were ever more than 100 made. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 25 11:06:50 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:06:50 -0700 Subject: FOX-1 brochure Message-ID: <966018e4ae60d18df437198e4805df7d@bitsavers.org> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/foxboro/FOX-1_brochure_Jan71.pdf From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 11:08:40 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:08:40 -0400 Subject: HP 98xx manuals In-Reply-To: <7e9ecfc9fcfeae10334e6d26e8adaee0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725120840.00a46c50@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:38 AM 7/25/05 -0700, you wrote: > > > Had enough yet Al? Or should I keep going? :-) > >May as well keep going. I don't have a job right now, so I can work >on this full-time for a few months. It'll probably take that long :-) Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 11:33:40 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:33:40 -0400 Subject: HP 98xx manuals (4th box) Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725123340.00a46e90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> OK Box #4. 1) Pascal 3.0 Workstation System 2) HP pascal Language Reference including same & Pascal 3.1 Documentaion Guide and Master Index 3) HP 9000 Series 200 Computers BASIC 3.0 Graphics Techniques. 4) "HP-IB" includes Tutorial Description of the Hewlett-Packard Interface Bus, Programming Note Introducory Operating Guide for the HP 1980A/B Oscilloscope Measurement System With the HP 9825 Desktop Computer, Product Note 1980A/B-44 An Introduction to Automatic Measurements with the 1980A/B's Trigger Flag, Programming Note Introductory Operating Guide for the HP 1980A/B Oscilloscope Measurement System With the HP 85 Personal Computer, Programming Note Introductory Operating Guide for the HP 1980A/B Oscilloscope Measurement System With the HP 9835 or 9845 Desktop Computer, & various program listings. 5) "HP 9800 Series 200 Cards" includes HP Series 200 Computer Pricing Information (Apr 1983), HP 82912A/HP 82913A Video Monitor Instruction Sheet, HP 98625A Disk Interface Installation, HP 98640A 7-Channel Analog Input Module Hardware Installation and Reference Manual. I pulled three manuals out of this book since another copy is already included in the previous box. 6) HP Computer Systems - Student 9826/36 BASIC Language Operating & Programming Course (with solutions). 7) Shared Resource Management HP Series 200 Workstation Manual includes two copies of same plus HP 9000 Series 200 Computers Loader Utility manual. Once again these are all full size manuals in three ring HP binders. Joe Ok that box wasn't quite full so I'm adding these loose manuals: 6) HP Series 200 Computers 9888A Bus Expander Installation and Service. 7) HP 98644A Asynchronous Serial interface Refeence Manual. 8) HP 98620 Direct Memroy Access Controller Installation Note. 9) HP 98625B HP-IB High Speed Disc Interface Hardware Reference Manual 10) HP 98622A GPIO Interface Installation. 11) HP 82906A Printer Owner's manual. 12) HP 98626A RS-232 Interface Installation. Joe Al & et al, OK, Third box! 1) HPL Operating Manual contains HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update for the HP 9826 and 9836 Computers, HP 9000 Series Computers Model 216/226/236 HPL Operating Manual, portions of a HP 3060 manual (the 3060 is a board test system that used a derivative of HPL called BTL (Board Test Language)), HPL Condensed Reference (photocopy) and HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update for the HP 9826 Computer (photocopy). 2) BASIC 3.0 Interfacing Techniques 3) Configuration Reference Manual includes two different Memory Configuration Wheels (maybe you can take them apart and scan everything then people can print it all out and make their own), Infotek Systems AM Series Memory Baord Instation and User's Manual, HP A1401A DIO-I Slot Upgrade Installation Guide, HP 9000 Series 300 Computer Systems Pricing Information (Oct 1988), HP 9000 Series 300 Models 310 and 320 Hardware Technical Data (Sept 1986), HP 9000 Series 300 Computers Configuration Reference Manual and several Installation Notes for HP memory cards. 4) Service Manual includes HP 98270F Powerfail Option Installation for the HP 9826 and 9836 Computers, HP 9000 Series 200 Computers Model 226/236 Service Manual. 5) BASIC Utilities Library for the HP Series 200 Computers includes some interesting Installation Notes and Programming Notes in the back including one on setting up the BASIC ROM card, also a brochure on the HP Series 200 Software available from HP. These are all in full size (8 1/2" x 11") three ring HP binders. Had enough yet Al? Or should I keep going? :-) Joe Previous I found another handy sized box so I packed up some more books. This lot includes: 1) Peripheral Installation Guide, HP 9000 Series 200/300 Computers & 35731 HP Monochrome Monitor Installation Guide 2) Using the BASIC 5.0/5.1 System, HP 9000 Series 200/300 Computers 3) FSD CE Handbook including Model 226/236 Installation Guide & Models 26 and 36 CE Handbook & Model 220 Installation Guide & Installation Notes for various cards 4) Pascal 3.0 User's Guide 5) Installation Reference HP 9000 Series 300 Computers Model 375 & BootROM Configuration Mode User's Manual, HP 9000 Products & Use with Terminals and Monitors, Series 300 Computers 6) BASIC Language Reference Volume 2: O-Z, HP 9000 Series 200/300 These are also "short" manuals in three ring binders. BTW I have some HP-UX manuals but some of them are paperback bound. Can you scan them without damaging them? These should also get into today mail. If I can find more boxs, I'll pack more books. Joe Previous Al, OK I'm packing up a box of HP books for you. I'm including: 1) Using HP BASIC for Instrument Control, a Self-Stufy Course 2) BASIC 5.0/5.1 Graphics Techniques 3) Installing, Using and Maintaining the BASIC 5.0 System 4) Pascal 3.1 User's Guide 5) Installation Guide HP 9000 Series 200 Model 226 and Model 236. 6) BASIC 5.0 Interfacing Techniques, Volume 1: General Topics These are all in the grey HP three ring binders and are all short (roughly 8" x 8 1/2") books. These cover a variety of topics and should make a good start. I specificly included the Installation book (#3) since it contains the information that Tony needs. It's probably the starting point for everything esle but it's actually a very difficult book to find and the reference manuals and such don't cover such basic topics as how to boot the machines or how to create or save the operating system. I'll probably ship this box today via USPS Media mail. I'll also go ahead and start packing some more books. Joe At 05:05 PM 7/24/05 -0700, you wrote: > > I guess you don't have the manuals for this. AFIK I have the full set of >manuals for BASIC 5.1 along with a bunch of other useful related HP manuals >such as the HP 9826/9836 and HP 9000/300 Series Computer Installation >manuals, various peripheral configuration manuals, BASIC 2.1 and 3.0 >manuals, HPL manual, Pascal manuals, Self-Study Guide to Instrument >Interfacing using HP Basic, FSD Customer Engineering Manual and more. This >stuff needs to be made available to the everyone. Al has asked about >borrowing the stuff and scanning it and I've told him that he can but we >haven't done anythng to make it happen yet. But it's about time that we >did. How about it Al? Do you have time to do this stuff yet? > > >--- > > >I'll make time to get it done. I have a couple of other manuals to get >on line (like the other PASCAL manual and the 9836 service manual) > >Was talking to a friend of mine today who makes a little Ubicom board >and I suggested he implement an HPIB interface on it and implement >enough of a emulator to provide an HPIB peripheral to Ethernet interface. >Then, you could have a box on the net simulate the rest. > > From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Mon Jul 25 11:40:13 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:40:13 -0500 Subject: FOX-1 (was A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E515ED.9080004@vzavenue.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > Al, I'm curious - do you have any idea how many (if any) known > specimens of these Foxboro are still around? > > -- > > This is the only one I know of. Sellam may know if the CHM > has one. > > I don't think there were ever more than 100 made. > > I know of two that were scrapped in the early 90's at two plants in North Texas. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From robo58 at optonline.net Mon Jul 25 11:41:21 2005 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:41:21 -0400 Subject: Decitek Reader and Remix punch References: <20333399.1122048259144.JavaMail.root@wamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000901c59137$b66be400$f10fa8c0@P43200> Here is some quick info on the Remex punch. The early models used a Facit mechanism while the later ones used a Remex engineered mechanism. The Facit's operated at 75 cps while the Remex operated at 120 cps. Remex suggested using oiled based paper tape for the lowest wear characteristics. Both Facit and Remex punches used bearing supported rotational solenoids. Bad bearings would show up as hanging chads or double eyebrows on the tape. The driver rods would also exhibit wear in the (nylon) hammer to punch pin interface and require replacement when their clearance exceeded specifications. The punch die contained grease and required refreshment. Punch pins would loose their sharpness and exhibit solenoid like problems. The punch pins and die were a matched set and each pin was matched to a specific hole in the die. I believe Facit also produced a 120 cps punch following Remex. Its possible that the Facit parts may fit and be useable on the Remex punches since it may be difficult to find any Remex parts at this time. Power supply issues could make it appear that a punch was bad. Lots of peak power is needed to get each rotational solenoid moving so if your punch exhibts problems make sure you test power supply response when driving all 8 punch pins. You can use your computer to drive the punch interface with different ones & zero test patterns. The following electrical documentation exists at the URL below. Its generic depending on the interface cable but typically Remex punches used a DB25 connector with similar signals and names. The interface was standard TTL (0-5v). http://www.adrco.com/download/ami_man.pdf J6 - PUNCH CONNECTOR - DB25S Female connector Standard Punch timings are supported. You can directly cable to the controls punch port. Some controls have circuits powered by the power supply inside the FACIT punch. The AMI does not source power, so if your control does not punch via AMI - check if you need to supply power somewhere. The pin-out for parallel punch emulation is shown below. J6-PinSignal name I/O J6-PINSIGNAL NAME I/O 1 DATA BIT 1 O 14 INPUT MODE -* 2 DATA BIT 2 O 15 OUTPUT MODE -* 3 DATA BIT 3 O 16 CHASSIS - 4 DATA BIT 4 O 17 CHASSIS - 5 DATA BIT 5 O 18 GND - 6 DATA BIT 6 O 19 no connect - 7 DATA BIT 7 O 20 PUNCH ERROR O 8 DATA BIT 8 O 21 GND - 9 no connect - 22 +5V(510. to +5V)O 10 no connect - 23 GND - 11 PUNCH CMD I 24 +5V(510. to +5V)O 12 PUNCH READY O 25 GND - 13 GND - From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 25 12:14:03 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:14:03 -0700 Subject: Latest round of Pioneer Planetary Society data analysis stuff on slashdot Message-ID: <51e73154b2be489653d0197ce720d646@bitsavers.org> Since Sellam just talked to someone about this.. Here is the only useful bit of information in the discussion: --- I talked to the guy who used to run Pioneer... ...and the situation is as follows: * The data used to be stored on magnetic tape. When the tape started deteriorating, all the data was archived off onto then state-of-the-art MO disks. * The machine used was a MicroVAX with a DEC RWZ21 SCSI MO drive, which is apparently quite rare. The disks are 128MB each. * For Pioneer 10, there are 155 disks, making 19840 MB of data. * For Pioneer 11, there are 217 disks, making 27776 MB of data. * Each disk takes about 10 minutes to read to the MicroVAX, and then more time to move across onto a real computer, of course. I would have happily volunteered to spend a couple of days swapping disks in order to salvage all this lot, but alas, I'm the wrong side of the Atlantic. The guy in charge has recently been made redundant, and he was desperate to find someone to hand off all this to... but there's incredible beaurocracy. (I gather all the data was actually supposed to have been destroyed some years ago, but through some 'oversight' hadn't been.) Alas, I don't have permission to publish his address, but I'll put him in touch with the Planetary Society on the off chance he doesn't know about this. Interestingly, for years he ran the Pioneer spacecraft off a Mac Quadra 950! Check out the screen shots [nasa.gov]... From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Jul 25 13:03:53 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:03:53 -0500 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: <20050722231112.311087c4.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050706194415.0cd68265.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050707214026.4ac19cf7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <42E1BA81.70209@oldskool.org> <20050722231112.311087c4.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <927f10502c8af591fbc4c5bc4af5ba31@earthlink.net> Back in the day, I ran Windows 3.1 on a 12MHz 286, with a Hercules card, and I still remember how vertically stretched the splash screen looked on the Hercules display. That thing was a sad mess - I had a EGA card and monitor I used for color graphics, and a Hercules I used for Windows apps (for the higher resolution) Despite its quirks, I wish I never separated and sold that machine. Thems whuz the daze... On Jul 22, 2005, at 11:11 PM, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:33:21 -0500 > Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Scott Stevens wrote: >>> EGA-Monochrome was very well >>> supported in a few essential apps like Microsoft Word for DOS, and >>> it also gave a MUCH better video resolution for Windows 3.0 on a >>> 9-pin mono monitor than a Hercules card. >> >> Huh? EGA mono is 640x350; Hercules is 720x348. You get more pixels >> with Hercules. >> > > For whatever reason, the drivers for Windows 3.0 make for a MUCH nicer > looking display with EGA monochrome than for a Hercules card. I can't > say why, but I distinctly remember this as being the case. It might > have more to do with the aspect ratio than the pixel count. > From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Jul 25 13:19:42 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:19:42 +0200 Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050724190019.009d9100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050725170148.070AE3955B@linux.local> Hi, On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:00:19 -0400, Joe R. wrote: : >>So I should be able to boot my 9836 from these? Excellent!. I assume I >>should use an externaal 9122 drive connected to the 9836's built-in HPIB >>port > > I'm not sure if you'll be able to boot from an external drive or not. I >don't mean to be a pessimist but I think you can only boot from a built-in >drive. I just looked at the BASIC 5.1 Installation Manual and it doesn't >say but when I look at the list of BIN driver files I see HP-IB, DISK ... ... i've done that. I had a 9122 connected to a HP9836 and i could boot from the 9122 without any problems. If i remember correctly, you have to specify a specific HP-IB address for the 9122 (i found that in one of the manuals, unfortunately i don't have that at hand at the moment ...) Ciao Bernd From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 13:29:49 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:29:49 -0400 Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: <20050725170148.070AE3955B@linux.local> References: <3.0.6.32.20050724190019.009d9100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725142949.00a654d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:19 PM 7/25/05 +0200, you wrote: >Hi, > >On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:00:19 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > >: >>>So I should be able to boot my 9836 from these? Excellent!. I assume I >>>should use an externaal 9122 drive connected to the 9836's built-in HPIB >>>port >> >> I'm not sure if you'll be able to boot from an external drive or not. I >>don't mean to be a pessimist but I think you can only boot from a built-in >>drive. I just looked at the BASIC 5.1 Installation Manual and it doesn't >>say but when I look at the list of BIN driver files I see HP-IB, DISK ... > >... i've done that. I had a 9122 connected to a HP9836 and i could boot from >the 9122 without any problems. If i remember correctly, you have to specify >a specific HP-IB address for the 9122 (i found that in one of the manuals, >unfortunately i don't have that at hand at the moment ...) That's interesting. I'm glad to hear that it works on an external drive. How do you specify an address before you load any OS? One of my manuals details the order that cards, drives, etc are searched for OSs (it's bizarre!) but I've never seen any mention that the boot drive needed to be at a particular address or that you needed to specify an address. Joe Joe > >Ciao Bernd > > > > From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Jul 25 13:49:53 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:49:53 +0200 Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050725142949.00a654d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050725173158.F14143955B@linux.local> Hi Joe, : > > That's interesting. I'm glad to hear that it works on an external drive. >How do you specify an address before you load any OS? One of my manuals >details the order that cards, drives, etc are searched for OSs (it's >bizarre!) but I've never seen any mention that the boot drive needed to be >at a particular address or that you needed to specify an address. > : I'm not sure, if the address is only a preferred address for booting, or if it's really required to be set (btw. in that manual, there were addresses for hard disk drives too) ... ... the boot rom (3.0) found the files on the 3.5" disk and i could select them just if they were on the internal disk Ciao Bernd From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Jul 25 14:01:41 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:01:41 -0700 Subject: local demolition of SAGE building References: <6.2.3.4.2.20050716073725.030bb098@mail.n.ml.org> Message-ID: <42E53715.64B89EFD@msm.umr.edu> Mitre Corporation has a nice page of photographs of the FSQ-7 computers showing nice detail. these links are from radome.org. thanks for that link. It will take a while to explore it all. Jim http://www.mitre.org/about/photo_archives/sage_photo.html John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > I saw this in today's copy of my local newspaper > on-line. The location of the building is in New > Windsor, NY. Stewart International Airport -as From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Mon Jul 25 14:17:23 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:17:23 +0100 Subject: my speccy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1122319043.17097.0.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 03:39 -0700, Arron McLaughlin wrote: > Are there any other New Zealanders here? I met Ethan Dicks a while ago > on his way through the country. Well, I'm here, but not there (ex Auckland). I don't recall any other NZers here, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong. Have fun with the Spectrum. You should be able to find some fellow enthusiasts - a friend of mine had quite a collection of Spectrum stuff until recently (microfloppies etc.) -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 14:41:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:41:47 -0400 Subject: HP 98xx manuals (5th box) Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725154147.00a548e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I had to stop for a while to take care of business but now I'm back with more books. Box #5 is now packed and ready to go. It contains more full size books in three ring binders. 1) BASIC 3.0 Programming Techniques includes same plus BASIC 3.0 Documentaion Guide and Master Index 2) Pascal 3.0 Graphics Techniques 3) Pascal 3.0 Procedure Library 4) "Customer Support Training" includes 9816 CE Hnadbook (this need to go into the CE Handbook binder), Series 200 Model 16 Self-Paced Learning Guide, HP 9816 Computer Service Manual, HP Series 200 Computers System Tests for the HP Series 200 Computers. Joe OK Box #4. 1) Pascal 3.0 Workstation System 2) HP pascal Language Reference including same & Pascal 3.1 Documentaion Guide and Master Index 3) HP 9000 Series 200 Computers BASIC 3.0 Graphics Techniques. 4) "HP-IB" includes Tutorial Description of the Hewlett-Packard Interface Bus, Programming Note Introducory Operating Guide for the HP 1980A/B Oscilloscope Measurement System With the HP 9825 Desktop Computer, Product Note 1980A/B-44 An Introduction to Automatic Measurements with the 1980A/B's Trigger Flag, Programming Note Introductory Operating Guide for the HP 1980A/B Oscilloscope Measurement System With the HP 85 Personal Computer, Programming Note Introductory Operating Guide for the HP 1980A/B Oscilloscope Measurement System With the HP 9835 or 9845 Desktop Computer, & various program listings. 5) "HP 9800 Series 200 Cards" includes HP Series 200 Computer Pricing Information (Apr 1983), HP 82912A/HP 82913A Video Monitor Instruction Sheet, HP 98625A Disk Interface Installation, HP 98640A 7-Channel Analog Input Module Hardware Installation and Reference Manual. I pulled three manuals out of this book since another copy is already included in the previous box. 6) HP Computer Systems - Student 9826/36 BASIC Language Operating & Programming Course (with solutions). 7) Shared Resource Management HP Series 200 Workstation Manual includes two copies of same plus HP 9000 Series 200 Computers Loader Utility manual. Once again these are all full size manuals in three ring HP binders. Joe Ok that box wasn't quite full so I'm adding these loose manuals: 6) HP Series 200 Computers 9888A Bus Expander Installation and Service. 7) HP 98644A Asynchronous Serial interface Refeence Manual. 8) HP 98620 Direct Memroy Access Controller Installation Note. 9) HP 98625B HP-IB High Speed Disc Interface Hardware Reference Manual 10) HP 98622A GPIO Interface Installation. 11) HP 82906A Printer Owner's manual. 12) HP 98626A RS-232 Interface Installation. Joe Al & et al, OK, Third box! 1) HPL Operating Manual contains HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update for the HP 9826 and 9836 Computers, HP 9000 Series Computers Model 216/226/236 HPL Operating Manual, portions of a HP 3060 manual (the 3060 is a board test system that used a derivative of HPL called BTL (Board Test Language)), HPL Condensed Reference (photocopy) and HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update for the HP 9826 Computer (photocopy). 2) BASIC 3.0 Interfacing Techniques 3) Configuration Reference Manual includes two different Memory Configuration Wheels (maybe you can take them apart and scan everything then people can print it all out and make their own), Infotek Systems AM Series Memory Baord Instation and User's Manual, HP A1401A DIO-I Slot Upgrade Installation Guide, HP 9000 Series 300 Computer Systems Pricing Information (Oct 1988), HP 9000 Series 300 Models 310 and 320 Hardware Technical Data (Sept 1986), HP 9000 Series 300 Computers Configuration Reference Manual and several Installation Notes for HP memory cards. 4) Service Manual includes HP 98270F Powerfail Option Installation for the HP 9826 and 9836 Computers, HP 9000 Series 200 Computers Model 226/236 Service Manual. 5) BASIC Utilities Library for the HP Series 200 Computers includes some interesting Installation Notes and Programming Notes in the back including one on setting up the BASIC ROM card, also a brochure on the HP Series 200 Software available from HP. These are all in full size (8 1/2" x 11") three ring HP binders. Had enough yet Al? Or should I keep going? :-) Joe Previous I found another handy sized box so I packed up some more books. This lot includes: 1) Peripheral Installation Guide, HP 9000 Series 200/300 Computers & 35731 HP Monochrome Monitor Installation Guide 2) Using the BASIC 5.0/5.1 System, HP 9000 Series 200/300 Computers 3) FSD CE Handbook including Model 226/236 Installation Guide & Models 26 and 36 CE Handbook & Model 220 Installation Guide & Installation Notes for various cards 4) Pascal 3.0 User's Guide 5) Installation Reference HP 9000 Series 300 Computers Model 375 & BootROM Configuration Mode User's Manual, HP 9000 Products & Use with Terminals and Monitors, Series 300 Computers 6) BASIC Language Reference Volume 2: O-Z, HP 9000 Series 200/300 These are also "short" manuals in three ring binders. BTW I have some HP-UX manuals but some of them are paperback bound. Can you scan them without damaging them? These should also get into today mail. If I can find more boxs, I'll pack more books. Joe Previous Al, OK I'm packing up a box of HP books for you. I'm including: 1) Using HP BASIC for Instrument Control, a Self-Stufy Course 2) BASIC 5.0/5.1 Graphics Techniques 3) Installing, Using and Maintaining the BASIC 5.0 System 4) Pascal 3.1 User's Guide 5) Installation Guide HP 9000 Series 200 Model 226 and Model 236. 6) BASIC 5.0 Interfacing Techniques, Volume 1: General Topics These are all in the grey HP three ring binders and are all short (roughly 8" x 8 1/2") books. These cover a variety of topics and should make a good start. I specificly included the Installation book (#3) since it contains the information that Tony needs. It's probably the starting point for everything esle but it's actually a very difficult book to find and the reference manuals and such don't cover such basic topics as how to boot the machines or how to create or save the operating system. I'll probably ship this box today via USPS Media mail. I'll also go ahead and start packing some more books. Joe At 05:05 PM 7/24/05 -0700, you wrote: > > I guess you don't have the manuals for this. AFIK I have the full set of >manuals for BASIC 5.1 along with a bunch of other useful related HP manuals >such as the HP 9826/9836 and HP 9000/300 Series Computer Installation >manuals, various peripheral configuration manuals, BASIC 2.1 and 3.0 >manuals, HPL manual, Pascal manuals, Self-Study Guide to Instrument >Interfacing using HP Basic, FSD Customer Engineering Manual and more. This >stuff needs to be made available to the everyone. Al has asked about >borrowing the stuff and scanning it and I've told him that he can but we >haven't done anythng to make it happen yet. But it's about time that we >did. How about it Al? Do you have time to do this stuff yet? > > >--- > > >I'll make time to get it done. I have a couple of other manuals to get >on line (like the other PASCAL manual and the 9836 service manual) > >Was talking to a friend of mine today who makes a little Ubicom board >and I suggested he implement an HPIB interface on it and implement >enough of a emulator to provide an HPIB peripheral to Ethernet interface. >Then, you could have a box on the net simulate the rest. > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 15:03:21 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:03:21 -0400 Subject: HP 98xx manuals (6th box) Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725160321.00a54290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> OK, on to box #6. 1) 35741 HP color Display Monitor Installation Guide (loose) 2) BASIC 5.0/5.1 Programming Techniques Volume 1: General Topics 3) BASIC Language Reference Volume 1: A-N HP 9000 Series 200/300 Computers (it doesn't say but I think this is for BASIC 5.0/5.1). 4) Pascal 3.0 User's Guide 5) Series 200 Model 16 BASIC Operating Guide OK I'm going to take a break now. Besides I'm running out of boxs. I still have some HP BASIC 2.1 and BASIC 4.0 manuals. Should Al scan those too? Opinions? I have a slew of HP IPC manuals and HP-UX manuals and I've been talking to Al about copying those too. Any opinions? Shoot! While we're at it should I send Al my HP 85/86/87 manuals? What about the 9825 manauls? Ditto the 9835 and 9845 manuals. Let see that still leaves all the HP disk drive manuals. And I'm sure that there's more around that I haven't thought of yet.* Joe *PS I also have a boxful of HP Journals that didn't go in the great purge. I had to stop for a while to take care of business but now I'm back with more books. Box #5 is now packed and ready to go. It contains more full size books in three ring binders. 1) BASIC 3.0 Programming Techniques includes same plus BASIC 3.0 Documentaion Guide and Master Index 2) Pascal 3.0 Graphics Techniques 3) Pascal 3.0 Procedure Library 4) "Customer Support Training" includes 9816 CE Hnadbook (this need to go into the CE Handbook binder), Series 200 Model 16 Self-Paced Learning Guide, HP 9816 Computer Service Manual, HP Series 200 Computers System Tests for the HP Series 200 Computers. Joe OK Box #4. 1) Pascal 3.0 Workstation System 2) HP pascal Language Reference including same & Pascal 3.1 Documentaion Guide and Master Index 3) HP 9000 Series 200 Computers BASIC 3.0 Graphics Techniques. 4) "HP-IB" includes Tutorial Description of the Hewlett-Packard Interface Bus, Programming Note Introducory Operating Guide for the HP 1980A/B Oscilloscope Measurement System With the HP 9825 Desktop Computer, Product Note 1980A/B-44 An Introduction to Automatic Measurements with the 1980A/B's Trigger Flag, Programming Note Introductory Operating Guide for the HP 1980A/B Oscilloscope Measurement System With the HP 85 Personal Computer, Programming Note Introductory Operating Guide for the HP 1980A/B Oscilloscope Measurement System With the HP 9835 or 9845 Desktop Computer, & various program listings. 5) "HP 9800 Series 200 Cards" includes HP Series 200 Computer Pricing Information (Apr 1983), HP 82912A/HP 82913A Video Monitor Instruction Sheet, HP 98625A Disk Interface Installation, HP 98640A 7-Channel Analog Input Module Hardware Installation and Reference Manual. I pulled three manuals out of this book since another copy is already included in the previous box. 6) HP Computer Systems - Student 9826/36 BASIC Language Operating & Programming Course (with solutions). 7) Shared Resource Management HP Series 200 Workstation Manual includes two copies of same plus HP 9000 Series 200 Computers Loader Utility manual. Once again these are all full size manuals in three ring HP binders. Joe Ok that box wasn't quite full so I'm adding these loose manuals: 6) HP Series 200 Computers 9888A Bus Expander Installation and Service. 7) HP 98644A Asynchronous Serial interface Refeence Manual. 8) HP 98620 Direct Memroy Access Controller Installation Note. 9) HP 98625B HP-IB High Speed Disc Interface Hardware Reference Manual 10) HP 98622A GPIO Interface Installation. 11) HP 82906A Printer Owner's manual. 12) HP 98626A RS-232 Interface Installation. Joe Al & et al, OK, Third box! 1) HPL Operating Manual contains HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update for the HP 9826 and 9836 Computers, HP 9000 Series Computers Model 216/226/236 HPL Operating Manual, portions of a HP 3060 manual (the 3060 is a board test system that used a derivative of HPL called BTL (Board Test Language)), HPL Condensed Reference (photocopy) and HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update for the HP 9826 Computer (photocopy). 2) BASIC 3.0 Interfacing Techniques 3) Configuration Reference Manual includes two different Memory Configuration Wheels (maybe you can take them apart and scan everything then people can print it all out and make their own), Infotek Systems AM Series Memory Baord Instation and User's Manual, HP A1401A DIO-I Slot Upgrade Installation Guide, HP 9000 Series 300 Computer Systems Pricing Information (Oct 1988), HP 9000 Series 300 Models 310 and 320 Hardware Technical Data (Sept 1986), HP 9000 Series 300 Computers Configuration Reference Manual and several Installation Notes for HP memory cards. 4) Service Manual includes HP 98270F Powerfail Option Installation for the HP 9826 and 9836 Computers, HP 9000 Series 200 Computers Model 226/236 Service Manual. 5) BASIC Utilities Library for the HP Series 200 Computers includes some interesting Installation Notes and Programming Notes in the back including one on setting up the BASIC ROM card, also a brochure on the HP Series 200 Software available from HP. These are all in full size (8 1/2" x 11") three ring HP binders. Had enough yet Al? Or should I keep going? :-) Joe Previous I found another handy sized box so I packed up some more books. This lot includes: 1) Peripheral Installation Guide, HP 9000 Series 200/300 Computers & 35731 HP Monochrome Monitor Installation Guide 2) Using the BASIC 5.0/5.1 System, HP 9000 Series 200/300 Computers 3) FSD CE Handbook including Model 226/236 Installation Guide & Models 26 and 36 CE Handbook & Model 220 Installation Guide & Installation Notes for various cards 4) Pascal 3.0 User's Guide 5) Installation Reference HP 9000 Series 300 Computers Model 375 & BootROM Configuration Mode User's Manual, HP 9000 Products & Use with Terminals and Monitors, Series 300 Computers 6) BASIC Language Reference Volume 2: O-Z, HP 9000 Series 200/300 These are also "short" manuals in three ring binders. BTW I have some HP-UX manuals but some of them are paperback bound. Can you scan them without damaging them? These should also get into today mail. If I can find more boxs, I'll pack more books. Joe Previous Al, OK I'm packing up a box of HP books for you. I'm including: 1) Using HP BASIC for Instrument Control, a Self-Stufy Course 2) BASIC 5.0/5.1 Graphics Techniques 3) Installing, Using and Maintaining the BASIC 5.0 System 4) Pascal 3.1 User's Guide 5) Installation Guide HP 9000 Series 200 Model 226 and Model 236. 6) BASIC 5.0 Interfacing Techniques, Volume 1: General Topics These are all in the grey HP three ring binders and are all short (roughly 8" x 8 1/2") books. These cover a variety of topics and should make a good start. I specificly included the Installation book (#3) since it contains the information that Tony needs. It's probably the starting point for everything esle but it's actually a very difficult book to find and the reference manuals and such don't cover such basic topics as how to boot the machines or how to create or save the operating system. I'll probably ship this box today via USPS Media mail. I'll also go ahead and start packing some more books. Joe At 05:05 PM 7/24/05 -0700, you wrote: > > I guess you don't have the manuals for this. AFIK I have the full set of >manuals for BASIC 5.1 along with a bunch of other useful related HP manuals >such as the HP 9826/9836 and HP 9000/300 Series Computer Installation >manuals, various peripheral configuration manuals, BASIC 2.1 and 3.0 >manuals, HPL manual, Pascal manuals, Self-Study Guide to Instrument >Interfacing using HP Basic, FSD Customer Engineering Manual and more. This >stuff needs to be made available to the everyone. Al has asked about >borrowing the stuff and scanning it and I've told him that he can but we >haven't done anythng to make it happen yet. But it's about time that we >did. How about it Al? Do you have time to do this stuff yet? > > >--- > > >I'll make time to get it done. I have a couple of other manuals to get >on line (like the other PASCAL manual and the 9836 service manual) > >Was talking to a friend of mine today who makes a little Ubicom board >and I suggested he implement an HPIB interface on it and implement >enough of a emulator to provide an HPIB peripheral to Ethernet interface. >Then, you could have a box on the net simulate the rest. > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 25 15:18:02 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:18:02 -0700 Subject: HP 98xx manuals (6th box) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050725160321.00a54290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050725160321.00a54290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <7f6072e3f56567c176c2180a6910cfd1@bitsavers.org> On Jul 25, 2005, at 1:03 PM, Joe R. wrote: > Shoot! While we're at it should I send Al my HP 85/86/87 manuals? > What > about the 9825 manauls? Ditto the 9835 and 9845 manuals. Let see that > still > leaves all the HP disk drive manuals. And I'm sure that there's more > around > that I haven't thought of yet.* I think a lot of that stuff is covered on the calculator CD. There were a few things, like the 9845 assembler manual that I did, since it didn't seem to be anywhere else. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 25 16:38:51 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:38:51 -0700 Subject: Decitek Reader and Remix punch Message-ID: Everything that I had scanned from Decitek and Remex is up now at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/decitek http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/remex From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 17:14:01 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:14:01 -0500 Subject: device programmer recommendations? Message-ID: OK... I've just about had it with this ancient B&C Microsystems UP600a - it _claims_ to support Atmel 22V10s, but I'm having no luck with that. It also seems to be unhappy with some modern JEDEC files - claming checksum errors and what not (on files generated and tested moments before from .PLD files). It does OK with Lattice 22V10s and AMD PALCE devices, as well as most 27(C)64s and larger, but it's getting harder and harder to find old GALs. So... I guess I have to find something new(er). Whatever replaces this will need to be able to program EPROMs down to 2732s at least (which should include 2716s), and 16V8 and 22V10 GALs. I'd say that accounts for 95% of what I need to burn (if I have to burn a bipolar PROM, I have ancient devices for just that task). So what device programmers do people here have that they'd recommend? I already have a dedicated PC attached to my current programmer, so I guess it doesn't matter what a replacement programmer needs to talk to - I'm already committed to supporting whatever box it needs to have (annoying as that is). Thanks for any recommendations, -ethan From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 16:20:43 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:20:43 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725172043.00a68ab0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:31 PM 7/4/05 -0400, you wrote: >if you would set the starting price to what you wanted instead of trying to >save money on listing fees, then you would not have to play games. What does the starting price have to do with people bidding at the last minute?? I don't see any connection. I always start my auctions cheap. First I don't see any reason to enrich E-bay any more than necessary but also I frequently don't know the value of an item and it's simple to start it cheap and let the market place set the price. I've used E-bay for almost ten years and I've watched the prices of certain items closely and I've frequently found tht people will not bid on items that start high even though the same item will bring more than the same high starting price when started at a lower price and allowed to escalate naturally. You have >decided to make life more difficult for you on eBay. It is not the late >bidders or eBay that has the problem. It IS the late bidding that was the problem in this case!!!! He waited too long and forgot to bid! Explain how the starting price had any bearing on that if you can. > >I have gone on eBay, done a new type of search, found and then bid on items >that were down to their last minutes. You technique keeps people from >finding the item at the last minute. You said "done a new type of search,". If you had done the same search earlier you would have found exactly the same items! Joe > >At 12:04 PM 07/04/2005, you wrote: >>One problem.....I have gotten so irritated by last minute bids.... >>when after all I paid for 7 days of bids....that I now pull any item >>that does NOT have a bid at 6 Hours before the end (that misses you). >>I will also sometimes up the ante rather than pull the item, sometimes >>by 5X. This is to discourage last minute bidders. This really works >>if you put the bidders on notice in your description that you plan on >>doing this. They, then, will decide wheather to "S*** or get off the >>pot" as we used to say at the poker table in the old days. > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 16:42:03 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:42:03 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725174203.00a68c00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Wow! Somebody really wanted that one! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725181808.00a69390@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Are you sure that the lights aren't blinking too fast to see? Perhaps you can hang a logic probe (with a pulse extender) on one of the lights to be sure. Joe At 06:08 PM 7/5/05 -0500, you wrote: >I finally allocated another day to spend on the 11/45. Unfortunately, I must >say I'm not sure if it's sick or not, hopefully someone can help. > >First, none of the blinking lights programs I've seen blink the lights. I >can store and retrieve the program correctly, but when I put 1000 on the >switches and hit load address then run, it goes into run mode but no lights >blink (with any display switch setting). Halt makes the processor halt. >Here's what I did: > >1000 005000 start: clr r0 >1002 005200 inc r0 >1004 006100 loop: rol r0 >1006 000005 reset >1010 000775 br loop > >On this program I put 1000 in the switches, hit load address, then run. >Address lights constantly show 1010, Data lights are blank, and the Run >light is on. Data Paths setting shows 0, bus register setting shows 5, uaddr >shows 177774. > >Another test... if I store a 5007 (clr pc) in location 0 and start the >processor at location 0, the address lights show all 0's, the data lights >show 2, and the following lights are lit - pause, master, kernel. I also >tried this with location 0 set to 777 (br .) and get the exact same results. > >More info... just after power up, the address lights show 20, the data >lights show 21043 (data paths). Master & Kernel are on. The uaddress setting >shows 177570. > >So... I decided to go back to basics and check all the power points at the >pins on the backplane. Here's what I found: >A02A2 0 >A06A2 4.931 >A10A1 4.931 >A26A2 4.931 >A19A2 0 >A16A2 0 >A21A2 0 >E02B2 -15 >A17V2 0 >A22V2 0 >A17U2 0 >A22U2 0 >F17C1 0 >E15A1 16 >E01B1 9 > >Since my machine only has regulators at B, C, D, E, and F, I suspect the 0 >volt readings above are ok. All the 5 volt test points have a very clear .2v >sawtooth pattern (which looks fairly smooth at 5v). Since one manual says >the ripple limit is .15, and another manual says the ripple limit is .20, I >suspect I'm ok there. The ripple on -15, 16, and 9 I can't see any >noticeable. > >And by the way... the cpu cardset was borrowed from another listmember and >tested before I received it so I don't think it's something wrong with the >cpu cardset itself. > >Any thoughts? > >Jay West > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 16:54:50 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:54:50 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/34 Programmer's Panel, Bubble Memory, DEC Rack Panel on E-bay Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725175450.00a69100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 17:24:59 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:24:59 -0400 Subject: IGNORE!!! Re: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050725172043.00a68ab0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725182459.00ac89c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Where did this come from?? It must have been sitting in the queue for a couple of weeks. IGNORE IT! We don't need to rehash this old argument. Joe At 05:20 PM 7/25/05 -0400, you wrote: >At 12:31 PM 7/4/05 -0400, you wrote: >>if you would set the starting price to what you wanted instead of trying to >>save money on listing fees, then you would not have to play games. > > What does the starting price have to do with people bidding at the last >minute?? I don't see any connection. > > I always start my auctions cheap. First I don't see any reason to enrich >E-bay any more than necessary but also I frequently don't know the value of >an item and it's simple to start it cheap and let the market place set the >price. I've used E-bay for almost ten years and I've watched the prices of >certain items closely and I've frequently found tht people will not bid on >items that start high even though the same item will bring more than the >same high starting price when started at a lower price and allowed to >escalate naturally. > > You have >>decided to make life more difficult for you on eBay. It is not the late >>bidders or eBay that has the problem. > > It IS the late bidding that was the problem in this case!!!! He waited >too long and forgot to bid! Explain how the starting price had any bearing >on that if you can. > > >> >>I have gone on eBay, done a new type of search, found and then bid on items >>that were down to their last minutes. You technique keeps people from >>finding the item at the last minute. > > You said "done a new type of search,". If you had done the same search >earlier you would have found exactly the same items! > > Joe > >> >>At 12:04 PM 07/04/2005, you wrote: >>>One problem.....I have gotten so irritated by last minute bids.... >>>when after all I paid for 7 days of bids....that I now pull any item >>>that does NOT have a bid at 6 Hours before the end (that misses you). >>>I will also sometimes up the ante rather than pull the item, sometimes >>>by 5X. This is to discourage last minute bidders. This really works >>>if you put the bidders on notice in your description that you plan on >>>doing this. They, then, will decide wheather to "S*** or get off the >>>pot" as we used to say at the poker table in the old days. >> >> >> > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 17:29:49 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:29:49 -0400 Subject: device programmer recommendations? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725182949.00794100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> It sounds like you need a DATA I/O model 29B. But you'll have to find a separate plug-in for the PALs. OTOH have you checked out the current crop of NEW PC based programmers? Some of them offer great features and their price is very reasonable. Check E-bay, a lot of times the manufacturers will sell a few there just to get product exposure. Let us know what you end up with. Joe At 05:14 PM 7/25/05 -0500, you wrote: >OK... I've just about had it with this ancient B&C Microsystems UP600a >- it _claims_ to support Atmel 22V10s, but I'm having no luck with >that. It also seems to be unhappy with some modern JEDEC files - >claming checksum errors and what not (on files generated and tested >moments before from .PLD files). It does OK with Lattice 22V10s and >AMD PALCE devices, as well as most 27(C)64s and larger, but it's >getting harder and harder to find old GALs. > >So... I guess I have to find something new(er). Whatever replaces >this will need to be able to program EPROMs down to 2732s at least >(which should include 2716s), and 16V8 and 22V10 GALs. I'd say that >accounts for 95% of what I need to burn (if I have to burn a bipolar >PROM, I have ancient devices for just that task). > >So what device programmers do people here have that they'd recommend? >I already have a dedicated PC attached to my current programmer, so I >guess it doesn't matter what a replacement programmer needs to talk to >- I'm already committed to supporting whatever box it needs to have >(annoying as that is). > >Thanks for any recommendations, > >-ethan > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 17:49:17 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:49:17 -0400 Subject: When it rains, it pours! PDP-8 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725184917.00a88b00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> :-) From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 17:50:34 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:50:34 -0400 Subject: 11/45, sick or not? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050725181808.00a69390@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <004101c581b6$6ecce580$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725185034.00aca570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> What is this??? I sent this over THREE weeks ago! Joe At 06:18 PM 7/25/05 -0400, you wrote: > Are you sure that the lights aren't blinking too fast to see? Perhaps you >can hang a logic probe (with a pulse extender) on one of the lights to be >sure. > > Joe > > >At 06:08 PM 7/5/05 -0500, you wrote: >>I finally allocated another day to spend on the 11/45. Unfortunately, I must >>say I'm not sure if it's sick or not, hopefully someone can help. >> >>First, none of the blinking lights programs I've seen blink the lights. I >>can store and retrieve the program correctly, but when I put 1000 on the >>switches and hit load address then run, it goes into run mode but no lights >>blink (with any display switch setting). Halt makes the processor halt. >>Here's what I did: >> >>1000 005000 start: clr r0 >>1002 005200 inc r0 >>1004 006100 loop: rol r0 >>1006 000005 reset >>1010 000775 br loop >> >>On this program I put 1000 in the switches, hit load address, then run. >>Address lights constantly show 1010, Data lights are blank, and the Run >>light is on. Data Paths setting shows 0, bus register setting shows 5, uaddr >>shows 177774. >> >>Another test... if I store a 5007 (clr pc) in location 0 and start the >>processor at location 0, the address lights show all 0's, the data lights >>show 2, and the following lights are lit - pause, master, kernel. I also >>tried this with location 0 set to 777 (br .) and get the exact same results. >> >>More info... just after power up, the address lights show 20, the data >>lights show 21043 (data paths). Master & Kernel are on. The uaddress setting >>shows 177570. >> >>So... I decided to go back to basics and check all the power points at the >>pins on the backplane. Here's what I found: >>A02A2 0 >>A06A2 4.931 >>A10A1 4.931 >>A26A2 4.931 >>A19A2 0 >>A16A2 0 >>A21A2 0 >>E02B2 -15 >>A17V2 0 >>A22V2 0 >>A17U2 0 >>A22U2 0 >>F17C1 0 >>E15A1 16 >>E01B1 9 >> >>Since my machine only has regulators at B, C, D, E, and F, I suspect the 0 >>volt readings above are ok. All the 5 volt test points have a very clear .2v >>sawtooth pattern (which looks fairly smooth at 5v). Since one manual says >>the ripple limit is .15, and another manual says the ripple limit is .20, I >>suspect I'm ok there. The ripple on -15, 16, and 9 I can't see any >>noticeable. >> >>And by the way... the cpu cardset was borrowed from another listmember and >>tested before I received it so I don't think it's something wrong with the >>cpu cardset itself. >> >>Any thoughts? >> >>Jay West >> >> > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 17:55:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:55:04 -0400 Subject: IGNORE!!! Re: When it rains, it pours! PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050725184917.00a88b00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725185504.00a4ebb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Ignore!! Another three week old message that's showing up again. At 06:49 PM 7/25/05 -0400, you wrote: > > > :-) > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jul 25 18:53:44 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:53:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: FOX-1 brochure In-Reply-To: <966018e4ae60d18df437198e4805df7d@bitsavers.org> References: <966018e4ae60d18df437198e4805df7d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4618.207.237.217.134.1122335624.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/foxboro/FOX-1_brochure_Jan71.pdf wow! 'nuff said. Is this one salvageable? -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 25 17:28:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:28:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050724190019.009d9100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jul 24, 5 07:00:19 pm Message-ID: > > At 07:25 PM 7/24/05 +0100, you wrote: > >> > >> That sounds like the installation disks for HP BASIC 5.1. Nice Find! It > >> took me years of searching to get a set. It should run on just about any HP > >> 9000 series 200 or 300 machine. (HP 9816, 9826, 9836, 9000/220, 9000/310, > >> 9000/320, etc etc etc). > > > >So I should be able to boot my 9836 from these? Excellent!. I assume I > >should use an externaal 9122 drive connected to the 9836's built-in HPIB > >port > > I'm not sure if you'll be able to boot from an external drive or not. I > don't mean to be a pessimist but I think you can only boot from a built-in > drive. I just looked at the BASIC 5.1 Installation Manual and it doesn't > say but when I look at the list of BIN driver files I see HP-IB, DISK, > HP9885, CS80 and others. It says HP-IB is required in order to use the > HP-IB, DISK provides support for "non CS80 disk drives such as the HP 82901 > and the HP 9121", HP9885 provides support for the HP 9885 drive, CS-80 > provides support for the CS-80 type disk AND SS-80 type disk. CS-80 also > requires installation of the HPIB BIN file. Since they provide these BIN Yes, but most, iof not all, HP9000 series 200 and 300 machines had 3.5" drives on the HPIB bus -- not direcrly built-in. So if this runs on series 200 and 300 machines (and the disk labels imply) then at least on some machines it must boot from an HPIB drive. Of course the 9836 boot ROM may only allow booting from the internal 5.25" drives, which would be a pity. I thought, though, that at least some of the boot ROMs allowed booting from just about anything. I've read te Pascal hacking manual on bitsavers which has a chapter on the boot process. It's not that explicit, but it certainly implies you can boot from things other than the internal drives. > PS the command to save a built OS file is STORE SYSTEM filename and not > SAVE SYSTEM. Doubtless I'll have forgotten that by the time I get my 9836 up and running :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 25 17:35:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:35:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050724193719.00a50210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jul 24, 5 07:37:19 pm Message-ID: > Regarding the serial number, IIRC it is stored in an EEPROM in the later > machines but in the early ones it is in the BootROM. At least that's what I > seem to recall. I've never hacked the hardware on these machines so I'm > just going on what I've heard or read. I don't think so. I think the boot ROM -- the ROMs containing the executable code -- are the same on all machines of a particular type. There is no serial number stored in them. The service manual implies there's a separate ID ROM, a little, looks to be bipolar, thing. I can't easily get to my 9836, and anyway I don't know what CPU board I have (the first 2 versions of the CPU/RA< board don't have the ID PROM at all). When I dig it out I'll let you know what I find. > I guess you don't have the manuals for this. AFIK I have the full set of > manuals for BASIC 5.1 along with a bunch of other useful related HP manuals No specific manuals for this disk set, no. I have HP BASIC documentation for other systems, but that doesn't cover configuration. I have the 9826/9836 service manual from Jon Johnston (the chap who runs hpmuseum.net). It's a boardswapper guide, of course, but with some useful information in it (read : stuff that would take more than 10 seconds to work out from looking at the mahcine). It's often the way with HP service manuals, much of it is obvious, but there's often something that really helps with understanding the machine if you read it with a hackish eye. > such as the HP 9826/9836 and HP 9000/300 Series Computer Installation > manuals, various peripheral configuration manuals, BASIC 2.1 and 3.0 > manuals, HPL manual, Pascal manuals, Self-Study Guide to Instrument > Interfacing using HP Basic, FSD Customer Engineering Manual and more. This I am not sure I specificially need any of that at the moment... > stuff needs to be made available to the everyone. Al has asked about > borrowing the stuff and scanning it and I've told him that he can but we But putting it on bitsacers would be a very Good Thing! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 25 18:21:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:21:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 98xx manuals In-Reply-To: <657158f977443f3b0079f23052013665@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jul 25, 5 08:23:29 am Message-ID: > The 2xx series was moderately well documented (schems for the DIO > interfaces, > even) But by the mid-80's, HP had gone to board-swapper level docs in > their > CE manuals. The desktop calculator service manuals (and some of these are really computers) never included full schematics. If you were lucky you got the PSU schematic. If you were very lucky you got the schematic of some other bit as well (the 9100 manual included the CRT driver board schematics, the 9830 manual included the cassette controller schematics). AFAIK you never got the CPU or memory schematics The handheld calculator service manuals did include schematics (at least up to the HP41, I believe the Voyager (11/12/15/16) manual didn't). But those manuals are very hard to find. The PC-like machines -- the HP150, HP110, etc did include schematics in the service or technical manuals. Strangely (with relation to the earlier manuals), you didn't get PSU schematics, you did get the logic ones. The HP9000 manuals never included CPU/memory board schematics AFAIK.. [Insert the standard 'plug' for the HPCC schematics CD] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 25 18:25:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:25:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: <20050725170148.070AE3955B@linux.local> from "Bernd Kopriva" at Jul 25, 5 08:19:42 pm Message-ID: > ... i've done that. I had a 9122 connected to a HP9836 and i could boot from > the 9122 without any problems. If i remember correctly, you have to specify > a specific HP-IB address for the 9122 (i found that in one of the manuals, > unfortunately i don't have that at hand at the moment ...) OK, when I get the machine out again (which, as I said last night, won't be for several months), I'll give it a go. IIRC, the HP drives only let you set addresses 0 to 7, so it's not a big job to try them all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 25 18:29:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:29:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 98xx manuals (6th box) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050725160321.00a54290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jul 25, 5 04:03:21 pm Message-ID: > > I have a slew of HP IPC manuals and HP-UX manuals and I've been talking > to Al about copying those too. Any opinions? I seem to remember you mentioned you had the IPC technical (or service?) manual and that it wasn't totally content-free. If that's the case, I'd like to see that one scanned. I have the user manuals for the IPC, I have user manauls for most of the other desktops. -tony From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Jul 25 19:14:53 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:14:53 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Decitek Reader and Remix punch Message-ID: <5814031.1122336894080.JavaMail.root@wamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > Al Kossow said: > Everything that I had scanned from Decitek and Remex is up now at > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/decitek > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/remex Al, thanks again for the wealth of information that you have taken the time to place on bitsavers. We couldn't make it without you! Ashley From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Jul 25 19:40:04 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:40:04 -0700 Subject: device programmer recommendations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507251740040922.0700885D@192.168.42.129> Hi, Ethan, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 25-Jul-05 at 17:14 Ethan Dicks wrote: >So... I guess I have to find something new(er). Whatever replaces >this will need to be able to program EPROMs down to 2732s at least >(which should include 2716s), and 16V8 and 22V10 GALs. I'd say that >accounts for 95% of what I need to burn (if I have to burn a bipolar >PROM, I have ancient devices for just that task). Pretty much anything in Data I/O from the 2900 or 3900 on up to the UniSite should do nicely for what you're asking, and it'll do all the bipolar devices as well. I also understand that Advin puts out some pretty decent hardware. Their 'Pilot MVP' units have shown up on Greed-Bay from time to time. Happy hunting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Jul 25 19:41:03 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:41:03 -0700 Subject: device programmer recommendations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507251741030890.07016EB6@192.168.42.129> I almost forgot to mention... All the Data I/O programmers I mentioned in my last note have a distinct advantage over many others: They will work with nothing more than a 'dumb' ASCII terminal attached to their serial port for control. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Jul 25 19:59:03 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:59:03 -0700 Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: (Tony Duell's message of "Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:35:54 +0100 (BST)") References: Message-ID: <200507260059.j6Q0x3GT021633@lots.reanimators.org> Tony Duell wrote: > I have the 9826/9836 service manual from Jon Johnston (the chap who runs > hpmuseum.net). It's a boardswapper guide, of course, but with some useful > information in it (read : stuff that would take more than 10 seconds to > work out from looking at the mahcine). It's often the way with HP service > manuals, much of it is obvious, but there's often something that really > helps with understanding the machine if you read it with a hackish eye. Even the programmers found HP software manuals to be that way. Copied from : How to Read a Manual By Alfredo Rego Adager Sun Valley, Idaho March 1, 1982 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- What follows is Alfredo's answer to a question from the audience at a RUG meeting. The question was: "Do you have the IMAGE hashing algorithm?" Alfredo detected the question behind the question and made this reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You should read manuals like you read love letters. In a love letter, everything counts. You read between the lines, above the lines, below the lines, and in the margins. You read between the individual letters (is that "i" dotted in an angry way?) You wonder what significance the stamp has. You smell the envelope for any special fragrance. You study the salutation (why "dearest" and not "darling" this time?) You even try to take the sheets of paper apart! In a manual, everything counts as well. Your heart may not pound as strongly when you read a manual. But you will certainly have more time for love if you do not have to spend endless hours at the computer doing things that you would not have to do at all had you read the manual lovingly to begin with! A sample from the IMAGE/3000 manual will warm up you heart: The manual mentions that DBGET "provides eight different methods for reading the data items of a specified entry". It then specifies these reading methods according to the Mode parameter. Everybody seems to register the first seven modes and everybody seems to ignore the eighth mode, whose action the manual casually describes thus: "Read the entry occupying the primary address of a synonym chain using the search item value specified in ARGUMENT to locate the entry. If the entry is not a primary entry in a master data set specified by DSET, it is not read." This apparently innocent paragraph actually says a lot! For instance, it says that you can use a Read-Before-Write approach that can help you minimize the load time of a master data set. Specifically, if you have to load a large quantity of entries to a master data set, you can do a DBGET mode 8 on the search-item value corresponding to the entry you are about to DBPUT. If DBGET returns a No Entry error code, then you know that the entry will be a primary entry and will never have to be migrated; therefore, you can do its DBPUT with a clear sense of righteousness. If, however, DBGET returns a code that means that it found an entry in the spot where your proposed entry belongs, then you know that it would become a secondary somewhere and -- even worse -- you know that it would become a candidate for migration if some primary later on happens to belong in the temporary spot "lent" to it. With this knowledge, you are then free to choose not to DBPUT this entry on this pass but wait until you have loaded all the primaries. You can then do a second pass loading all the secondaries -- none of which will migrate at all! The savings in time can be measured in the order of days. Well worth your while during your manual-reading, even though it was not your personfriend who wrote it. Alfredo Rego (end quote) From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jul 25 20:40:55 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:40:55 -0500 Subject: device programmer recommendations? References: <3.0.6.32.20050725182949.00794100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <007701c59183$12e46b30$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Joe wrote... > It sounds like you need a DATA I/O model 29B. But you'll have to find a > separate plug-in for the PALs. OTOH have you checked out the current crop > of NEW PC based programmers? Some of them offer great features and their > price is very reasonable. Check E-bay, a lot of times the manufacturers > will sell a few there just to get product exposure. Let us know what you > end up with. I'm quite fond of my Data I/O 29B, for several reasons. First, I insisted on a unit that COULD be hooked up to a PC, but didn't HAVE to be. In otherwords, I wanted something that could be used totally standalone - operated from it's own front panel. However, it needed to be able to interface with a host for storing images and retrieving images (being controlled completely by the host was an unnecessary but nice bonus). Lastly, it had to program all the old stuff, lots of different bipolars & such. The 29B fills all those requirements nicely. They are fairly frequent on Ebay, and hence not extremely costly. Mine has a fair number of add-on adapters, including PAL/GAL stuff (which I haven't used yet). Parts are all around. Full schematics are easily found. Good unit. I don't like the newer ones that require a PC. Jay From CCTalk at catcorner.org Mon Jul 25 21:03:50 2005 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:03:50 -0400 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435E28@mail.catcorner.org> Anyone know about anything similar to this? http://www.datexeuropa.com/emulatoren/DTX300-ENG.pdf Mostly interested in something I could build. Probably couldn't even afford the shipping on a unit like this. Just dreading the day I finally run out of ST-506 hard drives. Kelly From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 22:53:28 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:53:28 -0400 Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050724190019.009d9100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725235328.007c05f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:28 PM 7/25/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> At 07:25 PM 7/24/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> >> >> That sounds like the installation disks for HP BASIC 5.1. Nice Find! It >> >> took me years of searching to get a set. It should run on just about any HP >> >> 9000 series 200 or 300 machine. (HP 9816, 9826, 9836, 9000/220, 9000/310, >> >> 9000/320, etc etc etc). >> > >> >So I should be able to boot my 9836 from these? Excellent!. I assume I >> >should use an externaal 9122 drive connected to the 9836's built-in HPIB >> >port >> >> I'm not sure if you'll be able to boot from an external drive or not. I >> don't mean to be a pessimist but I think you can only boot from a built-in >> drive. I just looked at the BASIC 5.1 Installation Manual and it doesn't >> say but when I look at the list of BIN driver files I see HP-IB, DISK, >> HP9885, CS80 and others. It says HP-IB is required in order to use the >> HP-IB, DISK provides support for "non CS80 disk drives such as the HP 82901 >> and the HP 9121", HP9885 provides support for the HP 9885 drive, CS-80 >> provides support for the CS-80 type disk AND SS-80 type disk. CS-80 also >> requires installation of the HPIB BIN file. Since they provide these BIN > >Yes, but most, iof not all, HP9000 series 200 and 300 machines had 3.5" >drives on the HPIB bus -- not direcrly built-in. So if this runs on series >200 and 300 machines (and the disk labels imply) then at least on some >machines it must boot from an HPIB drive. Yes, I was wondering about that. I suspect it depends on the BootROM version in which case the 9826 and 9836 may not boot from external drive since they were the first machines of that series and many had low version BootROMs. I guess the only thing to do is to try it! Let me know if it works or not and what version BootROM you have. > >Of course the 9836 boot ROM may only allow booting from the internal >5.25" drives, which would be a pity. I thought, though, that at least >some of the boot ROMs allowed booting from just about anything. > >I've read te Pascal hacking manual on bitsavers which has a chapter on >the boot process. It's not that explicit, but it certainly implies you >can boot from things other than the internal drives. > >> PS the command to save a built OS file is STORE SYSTEM filename and not >> SAVE SYSTEM. > >Doubtless I'll have forgotten that by the time I get my 9836 up and >running :-) Well Al may have the manuals scanned and posted by then. I packed a BUNCH of HP 9000 manuals to ship to him today and the BASIC Installation manual is in the first box. Joe > >-tony > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 22:57:28 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:57:28 -0400 Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050724193719.00a50210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050725235728.00897d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:35 PM 7/25/05 +0100, you wrote: >> Regarding the serial number, IIRC it is stored in an EEPROM in the later >> machines but in the early ones it is in the BootROM. At least that's what I >> seem to recall. I've never hacked the hardware on these machines so I'm >> just going on what I've heard or read. > >I don't think so. I think the boot ROM -- the ROMs containing the >executable code -- are the same on all machines of a particular type. >There is no serial number stored in them. The service manual implies >there's a separate ID ROM, a little, looks to be bipolar, thing. > >I can't easily get to my 9836, and anyway I don't know what CPU board I >have (the first 2 versions of the CPU/RA< board don't have the ID PROM at >all). When I dig it out I'll let you know what I find. > >> I guess you don't have the manuals for this. AFIK I have the full set of >> manuals for BASIC 5.1 along with a bunch of other useful related HP manuals > >No specific manuals for this disk set, no. I have HP BASIC documentation >for other systems, but that doesn't cover configuration. > >I have the 9826/9836 service manual from Jon Johnston (the chap who runs >hpmuseum.net). It's a boardswapper guide, of course, Somewhere I have a 9826 service manual that's pretty complete. I haven't looked at it in a long time but I know if had schematics and I'm about 95% sure that it had a detailed parts list as well. I came across several service manuals today but I didn't look at them, I just packed them up to go to Al. but with some useful >information in it (read : stuff that would take more than 10 seconds to >work out from looking at the mahcine). It's often the way with HP service >manuals, much of it is obvious, but there's often something that really >helps with understanding the machine if you read it with a hackish eye. > > > >> such as the HP 9826/9836 and HP 9000/300 Series Computer Installation >> manuals, various peripheral configuration manuals, BASIC 2.1 and 3.0 >> manuals, HPL manual, Pascal manuals, Self-Study Guide to Instrument >> Interfacing using HP Basic, FSD Customer Engineering Manual and more. This > >I am not sure I specificially need any of that at the moment... > >> stuff needs to be made available to the everyone. Al has asked about >> borrowing the stuff and scanning it and I've told him that he can but we > >But putting it on bitsacers would be a very Good Thing! Well that's finally in the works! Joe > >-tony > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 23:00:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:00:02 -0400 Subject: HP 98xx manuals In-Reply-To: References: <657158f977443f3b0079f23052013665@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050726000002.00898d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:21 AM 7/26/05 +0100, you wrote: >> The 2xx series was moderately well documented (schems for the DIO >> interfaces, >> even) But by the mid-80's, HP had gone to board-swapper level docs in >> their >> CE manuals. > >The desktop calculator service manuals (and some of these are really >computers) never included full schematics. If you were lucky you got the >PSU schematic. If you were very lucky you got the schematic of some other >bit as well (the 9100 manual included the CRT driver board schematics, >the 9830 manual included the cassette controller schematics). AFAIK you >never got the CPU or memory schematics > >The handheld calculator service manuals did include schematics (at least >up to the HP41, I believe the Voyager (11/12/15/16) manual didn't). But >those manuals are very hard to find. > >The PC-like machines -- the HP150, HP110, etc did include schematics in >the service or technical manuals. Strangely (with relation to the earlier >manuals), you didn't get PSU schematics, you did get the logic ones. > >The HP9000 manuals never included CPU/memory board schematics AFAIK.. I think you'll be surprised once Al gets the stuff scanned! Joe > >[Insert the standard 'plug' for the HPCC schematics CD] > >-tony > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 25 23:05:38 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:05:38 -0400 Subject: HP 98xx manuals (6th box) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050725160321.00a54290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050726000538.0089a2e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:29 AM 7/26/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> I have a slew of HP IPC manuals and HP-UX manuals and I've been talking >> to Al about copying those too. Any opinions? > >I seem to remember you mentioned you had the IPC technical (or service?) >manual and that it wasn't totally content-free. If that's the case, I'd >like to see that one scanned. I have the IPC service manuals. Al has already said that he wants to scan the IPC stuff. I'm guessing there's about 3 boxs full. Shoot! They're on the shelf behind me I'll count them. OK there are 20 manuals of IPC hardware, software and closely related HP-UX. AFIK I have EVERYTHING HP ever published for the IPC. And yes, you'll be happy with the IPC service manual. I wouldn't call the highly detailed but they're good. Very GOOD by HP standards. Joe > >I have the user manuals for the IPC, I have user manauls for most of the >other desktops. > >-tony > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 23:39:09 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:39:09 -0700 Subject: device programmer recommendations? In-Reply-To: <200507251740040922.0700885D@192.168.42.129> References: <200507251740040922.0700885D@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e905072521391d6aaf78@mail.gmail.com> On 7/25/05, Bruce Lane wrote: > Pretty much anything in Data I/O from the 2900 or 3900 on up to the UniSite should do nicely for what you're asking, and it'll do all the bipolar devices as well. What about the software for the Data I/O units if you get one without any software? Last time I looked you couldn't download the software for free from Data I/O. I had a UniSite once briefly but sold it after finding out how much it would cost for the current software. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jul 25 23:58:09 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:58:09 -0500 Subject: device programmer recommendations? References: <200507251740040922.0700885D@192.168.42.129> <1e1fc3e905072521391d6aaf78@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b001c5919e$9e9348c0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > What about the software for the Data I/O units if you get one without > any software? Last time I looked you couldn't download the software > for free from Data I/O. I had a UniSite once briefly but sold it > after finding out how much it would cost for the current software. Odd.... Promlink works with the 29B, and it's available for free download at several places on the net. I'm not sure promlink supports the unisite, but I'm thinking it does... Jay From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jul 25 23:18:30 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:18:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <200507220957.48450.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <1122031858.7194.90.camel@weka.localdomain> <200507221350.JAA10299@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200507220957.48450.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200507260520.BAA00657@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> (I *think* the [NCD] 19r's something a bit more conventional >>> CPU-wise) >> One of the MIPS line (I don't know exactly which one). > I don't think an i960 is a MIPS CPU but I might be wrong. :) Right. But that's not what's in the 19r. Or, at least, it's not what's in the NCD I have, which is marked as a 19r. It also runs software which is supposedly for the 19r, and which makes sense when looked at with a MIPS disassembler. I also pulled the CPU board from my 19r and scanned it. The scan is not the best - it's a little out of focus and somewhat dim, because the board didn't sit very close to the scanner glass - but the writing on all the chips with enough pin count to be CPUs is legible (though on my monitor I have to stretch the contrast). It's up for ftp from ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/misc/NCD-CPU/board.pgm and board.gif for your viewing edification. It's 2549x1771; the chips of particular interest can be found at 700x400 at 1100,200, 400x400 at 800,900, and 400x400 at 1400,875; those pieces, contrast-stretched, can be found in .../NCD-CPU/X.YYY where X is A, B, or C and YYY is pgm or gif. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jul 26 00:56:05 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:56:05 -0700 Subject: Foxboro References: <966018e4ae60d18df437198e4805df7d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42E5D06F.C23C37B4@cs.ubc.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Generally the land's at such a premium over here that places don't stay abandoned for long The refinery has been dismantled slowly over the past 10 years and I have no idea how much longer the land will sit idle (the building containing the equipment could come down next week or in 10 years). Time required for soil remediation from 100 years of 'less-environmentally-concerned' practices is the main reason I believe. Then there's land speculation ... oh scratch that, we don't call it that anymore because we're not supposed to be doing it .. I think it's called "market timing" now. James Rice wrote: > I knew Foxboro was old but didn't realize they were founded in 1908. > I remember working on pneumatic controls from Foxboro that were date coded Thanks for the comments, I too found their home page and brief history after I sent the first message - had no idea they had been around that long. Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/foxboro/FOX-1_brochure_Jan71.pdf Oooh! ... it's a cosmic coincidence: I came across the Foxboro when out for a run in the *forest* and a dip in the *lake*, and the big double-page colour photo spread (*1) in the brochure from 1971 has a Foxboro system arrayed in a *forest* setting beside a *lake*. (*1: is that what is called 'computer-porn'?) .. ya 'gotta love marketing stuff from the 70s. And this profundity from the text: " Now for the first time man meets process on his own terms. " Actually, in addition to the amusement factor, the brochure is very informative; thanks greatly for putting it up. The video consoles in the brochure look like the one I saw at the refinery. The double cabinet I saw looks similar to those big 'secondary' cabinets behind the consoles in the above-mentioned photo spread. I didn't see the X-shaped CPU at the refinery, so either something changed in the physical form or perhaps what I came across was a remote operator's station and the main processor was in another building. From the brochure it sounds like it was quite a modern architecture for the time - hardware return stack, byte addressing, etc. and the software packages for the process-control sound interesting. Rescue has it's problems. I think it must have been lifted into it's location on the second floor by a crane, the cabinets would have to be dismantled down to manageable bits now to get it out. It may be beyond usefulness, as suggested above it looks like it probably isn't the entire system. It would be neat to get the console, do some reverse engineering, figure out the comm protocol and set it up as a graphics terminal, but it appeared to be missing the keyboard, and may have been already used as a donor machine. Perhaps I'll go for another run. With a flashlight and screwdriver. I would guess there is a -small- possibility that the remainder of the system is in the still-in-use buildings on site. Fantasy/hindsight: It would be neat to actually get such a system at the point of decommission, when it's still operating and the original plant software is still around, rescue it all, build a back-end simulation of the physical plant, connect the sim to the processor I/O and have a functioning system with neato 60s/70s vector-graphic displays updated in real-time, etc. Such a system bears a lot more resemblance to how we use computers today, even at the personal desktop level, than the line-at-a-time or batch-oriented systems from that period that are more commonly preserved. Most of computer hardware history presentation seems to be to show how much things have changed, rather than what is similar. Such a system as this would show another side of 'early computing', what was possible, and was done, in that period. (And how much was done with a processor with ~16-32KW RAM and ~1MHz basic clock rate (specs from the brochure) ). It did occur to me in the early 90s when they started talking about shutting down the refining operations to go ask about the computer system, but I didn't know where I could put it physically (and still don't), and I didn't know anyone else at the time that would even possibly be interested in such stuff. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jul 26 01:01:38 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:01:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507260604.CAA00930@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Disk = short for diskette, refers to floppies, and when a hard drive > is called a "disk" is used for that as well simply because that is > what floppies were called at the time hard drives became cheaper and > more mainstream. Um, I think you have the history backwards. The very term "hard drive" was invented to contrast with floppies, and they were called disks (or perhaps discs) long before they were called hard drives. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jul 26 01:04:50 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: <20050724145733.W11263@shell.lmi.net> References: <1122206674.10241.42.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050724145733.W11263@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200507260609.CAA00974@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > OB_CCTALK: Do modern (oxymoron?) Japanese, British, and Amurican cars > have "Disc brakes" or "Disk brakes"? (German cars have "disk") To me as a native of the North American idiom, "disc" looks more correct in that use. But I'd also bring up "dis[ck] jockey" for someone who spins recordings, eg for a radio station, with the implied meaning of "dis[ck]"; in that case too I've seen both spellings but "disc" looks more correct to me. Cf. Terry Pratchett's "discworld" books.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 26 03:02:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sage II computer In-Reply-To: <42E482A0.2050706@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > I've put up a small web page on this machine since I couldn't find even this > much elsewhere on the web. Again, I solicit contributions of docs, disks, disk > images, etc for free/trade/$, so that I can learn more about the machine and > expand the web page: > > http://www.thebattles.net/sage/sage.html > > The page has a number of pictures of the machine inside & outside. Jim, Thanks for this! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 26 03:06:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <42E4A38D.1BC26FD5@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Brent Hilpert wrote: > But there's not a lot of reason other than a computer system for circuit > boards that large to be hanging around an oil refinery. Sure enough, the > cabinet had a little "FOXBORO" logo up in one corner. Looking around a little > more turned up a very large floor-standing video console with "FOX-1" in > addition to the "FOXBORO" logo on it, a GE termi-net printer/terminal, and a > sub-room packed with racks of what appear to be the I/O interface/drive > equipment (where all the wires from the sensor/control points around the > refinery terminate and are interfaced to the processor). Wow, totally cool! This is so Indiana Jones! > I don't know a lot about Foxboro, I believe they were a spin-off or > startup company in the 60s that were early entrants into the (then small > and state-of-the-art) area of computer-based real-time process-control > for large industrial plants. They are one of those names you don't run > across much unless you run in those circles. Foxboro actually used to OEM DEC equipment. One of their first products (if not the first?) was the PCP-88, a re-badged PDP-8. > My friend finally dragged me out and we continued on our run into the forest > with a little dip in the lake on the way home. So what are you going to do about the Foxboro equipment? It'd be a shame if it eventually go demolished with the building. Then again, it'd be neat to think it'll still be there 50 years from now ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 26 03:09:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <1122286008.11835.2.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 01:32 -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > So a friend and I headed out for a run today and on the way to the trails > > decided to take the shortcut across the lands of our friendly neighbourhood > > giant big-oil corp. oil refinery. This refinery was nearly 100 years old until > > it was mostly decommissioned and dismantled in the 1990s > > that's a nice story - I do quite a bit of that sort of exploration, > never found anywhere with computers left inside though! Generally the > land's at such a premium over here that places don't stay abandoned for > long, and the scrappers seem to move in minutes after a place closes > down and remove all the interesting interior stuff. My semi-cool story is chasing down an IBM 360 in an abandoned North Carolina factory (laying dormant as a Superfund* site) only to find a boring 5360 (that a collector from Pennsylvania later retrieved). * In a nutshell Superfund sites in the US are sites condemned by the US government as polluted beyond all recognition and for all practical purposes requiring millions of dollars to clean up before they can be put back into use. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 26 03:14:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FOX-1 (was A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > Al, I'm curious - do you have any idea how many (if any) known > specimens of these Foxboro are still around? > > -- > > This is the only one I know of. Sellam may know if the CHM > has one. I don't know of any in the CHM collection but will keep my eyes open. I always (ALWAYS!) discover something "new" whenever I go poking around in storage. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From asholz at topinform.de Tue Jul 26 03:25:53 2005 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:25:53 +0200 Subject: PDP11/34a on ebay.de In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E5F391.3020401@topinform.de> Hello, there is a PDP11/34a on ebay Germany. Maybe of interest for the European readers of this list. Andreas From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 26 04:07:00 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:07:00 +0000 Subject: FOX-1 (was A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing ) In-Reply-To: <2c11fb3b67c897f860c482d862746830@bitsavers.org> References: <2c11fb3b67c897f860c482d862746830@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1122368820.13616.1.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 08:29 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > This machine needs to be saved, if that's possible. I like the mention of the "Plant Language Macroprocessor" software. Presumably it must be a pretty early example of a machine that shipped with tools geared toward the end user (rather than just the usual assembler, C compiler or whatever) cheers Jules From bert at brothom.nl Tue Jul 26 05:19:56 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:19:56 +0100 Subject: tip: fun magazine Message-ID: <42E60E4C.10508@brothom.nl> Hi all, This is a fun magazine about making stuff, IMO intended for the kind of people that hang around here. I don't make any money out if it, I just simply like it. http://www.makezine.com/ Bert From emu at ecubics.com Tue Jul 26 04:26:20 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 03:26:20 -0600 Subject: Mystery box In-Reply-To: <200507260520.BAA00657@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1122031858.7194.90.camel@weka.localdomain> <200507221350.JAA10299@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200507220957.48450.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200507260520.BAA00657@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <42E601BC.9000005@ecubics.com> der Mouse wrote: > I also pulled the CPU board from my 19r and scanned it. The scan is > not the best - it's a little out of focus and somewhat dim, because the > board didn't sit very close to the scanner glass - but the writing on > all the chips with enough pin count to be CPUs is legible (though on my > monitor I have to stretch the contrast). It's up for ftp from > ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/misc/NCD-CPU/board.pgm and board.gif > for your viewing edification. It's 2549x1771; the chips of particular > interest can be found at 700x400 at 1100,200, 400x400 at 800,900, and > 400x400 at 1400,875; those pieces, contrast-stretched, can be found in > .../NCD-CPU/X.YYY where X is A, B, or C and YYY is pgm or gif. The big (?) LSI chip is the CPU. (33000), which was used until the 33020 came out, (RocketX) From asholz at topinform.de Tue Jul 26 04:28:24 2005 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:28:24 +0200 Subject: PDP11/34a on ebay.de In-Reply-To: <42E5F391.3020401@topinform.de> References: <42E5F391.3020401@topinform.de> Message-ID: <42E60238.3010507@topinform.de> Sorry, missed the link in my first email. > Hello, > > there is a PDP11/34a on ebay Germany. http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5222993578&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 > > Maybe of interest for the European readers of this list. > > Andreas > > From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jul 26 05:27:25 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 06:27:25 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk - need info on Adaptec 1542CF Message-ID: <20050726102724.UNZ11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> One of the guys trying my ImageDisk program is using an Adaptec 1542CF controller - he can read disks fine, however when he tries to write them, it gets an error during every write sector command. The status registers reported ar: SR0: 41 SR1: 04 SR2: 00 According to the NEC 765 datasheets: 41 means "Abnormal Termination of Command" "Execution of command was started, but not successfully finished" No other error indicators 04 means: "B3: Not used, this bit always low (0)", No other error indicators 00 means: No error indicators Looks like the controller in the Adaptec is using B3 as an error indicator, however I do not have any information on what this means ... Does anyone have technical information on the Adaptec controller and can tell me what this bit means? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Tue Jul 26 07:09:23 2005 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:09:23 -0400 Subject: Anyone in Virginia? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The schools there are selling 1000 Apple ibooks... http://www.henrico.k12.va.us/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jul 26 07:14:03 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone in Virginia? In-Reply-To: from Gavin Thomas Nicol at "Jul 26, 5 08:09:23 am" Message-ID: <200507261214.FAA13790@floodgap.com> > The schools there are selling 1000 Apple ibooks... > > http://www.henrico.k12.va.us/ I saw that too. I wonder if anyone here local to the sale might be interested in working on a group buy for a "finder's and inconvenience fee." -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The cost of living has not adversely affected its popularity. -------------- From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Jul 26 07:17:23 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:17:23 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Anyone in Virginia? Message-ID: <692882.1122380243615.JavaMail.root@wamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> but you can only buy one per person, so there is no opportunity for a group buy without the people to go along with it. The $50 price is great which means that is will be an absolute zoo and will be an all day and maybe the night before event for those lucky people that have time like that and a large family to take along. -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser Sent: Jul 26, 2005 8:14 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone in Virginia? > The schools there are selling 1000 Apple ibooks... > > http://www.henrico.k12.va.us/ I saw that too. I wonder if anyone here local to the sale might be interested in working on a group buy for a "finder's and inconvenience fee." -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The cost of living has not adversely affected its popularity. -------------- From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Jul 26 07:53:25 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:53:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone in Virginia? In-Reply-To: <200507261214.FAA13790@floodgap.com> References: from Gavin Thomas Nicol at "Jul 26, 5 08:09:23 am" <200507261214.FAA13790@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1368.207.237.217.134.1122382405.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >> The schools there are selling 1000 Apple ibooks... >> >> http://www.henrico.k12.va.us/ > > I saw that too. I wonder if anyone here local to the sale might be > interested > in working on a group buy for a "finder's and inconvenience fee." I'd love one of those, and we're in the US long enough to sort out any shipping type things..... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 09:03:13 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:03:13 +0100 Subject: VMS at 20 Message-ID: <26c11a64050726070322ac5c6c@mail.gmail.com> Someone posted this link on comp.os.vms. it's quite a good read. http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/20th/vmsbook.pdf Dan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 26 09:42:12 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:42:12 +0000 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435E28@mail.catcorner.org> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435E28@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <1122388932.13599.31.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 22:03 -0400, Kelly Leavitt wrote: > Anyone know about anything similar to this? > http://www.datexeuropa.com/emulatoren/DTX300-ENG.pdf > > Mostly interested in something I could build. Probably couldn't even afford > the shipping on a unit like this. I'm not sure how complex such a box would be. I *think* an ST506- interface drive looks pretty much like a big floppy, just with more heads. Far as I know, it doesn't do anything intelligent on the drive itself, just responds to head select / step commands from the controller and reads or writes data. The bit I don't know is the nature of the data signal at the interface - it uses +/- signal lines for both read and write data. I'm not sure if that's an analogue signal or a digital one. I could imagine a device containing a pile of non-volatile memory in a row/column arrangement. There'd be a free-running counter to address the memory row and simulate the rotation of the drive (this would also drive the index line when at address 0). Then there'd be a second counter linked to the memory column and controlled by the step line on the interface, in order to simulate a drive track; this would also drive the track 0 line when at address 0. OK, that's only simulating a single head; but it just scales up with more memory planes to simulate more platter surfaces. I *think* that would be it; the controller writes the necessary bit patterns when doing a LLF of the drive to mark out sector boundaries, so I don't think there's a need to handle anything complex in the virtual drive. I believe an ST506 drive's purely a data store/replay device and it knows nothing of the actual data stored on it - most of the circuirty on board is presumably just motor control and head amplifiers / filters. I'd have no idea how to properly design something on a PCB that'd work though at the sort of necessary speeds without noise problems! But I think *in theory* it's probably not a difficult thing to design, and just needs a good electronic engineer to do the PCB work. Arguments welcome though :-) Yes we've been here before on this list - I think that was working out how to replace a ST506 drive with IDE though (which of course does know about sectors and stuff) - hopefully driving a pile of NVRAM as a linear sequence of bits is a lot easier. > Just dreading the day I finally run out of ST-506 hard drives. I'm got a few stockpiled at the museum, both for ourselves and for if anyone else needs one in an emergency - people locally seem to dispose of them quite often, so I just save what I can. Of course the majority of them are probably in a non-working condition anyway! cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 26 10:15:03 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:15:03 -0500 Subject: FOX-1 (was A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing ) References: <2c11fb3b67c897f860c482d862746830@bitsavers.org> <1122368820.13616.1.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <004401c591f4$d57b4300$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I looked at the brochure on the FOX-1 that Al put up.... that's a gorgeous machine. Love the consoles too, awesome retroness :> Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 26 10:22:21 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:22:21 -0500 Subject: vcf midwest stuff Message-ID: <006201c591f5$d2baf510$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Getting my travel plans together for VCF Midwest this saturday. I think I'm going to stay in a RedRoof that's about 5 miles east of the vcf location (I like redroof and the econolodge just didn't strike me). Since VCFm is one day, are people getting together for dinner the night before, or dinner the day of the show? Since it's only a 5 hour drive for me, if people get together the night before I'll head back saturday right after VCF. If people are going to get together saturday night, I'll head back sunday morning. I will be bringing the infamous red trailer, and exhibiting it in a booth at VCF. See the marks the fire/explosion left on the trailer! See the bullet holes from the police shooting at it.... *GRIN* But seriously - if anyone wants me to bring something particular up for trades, now is the time! Jay From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Jul 26 10:35:28 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:35:28 -0400 Subject: vcf midwest stuff Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE6A1@exchange.olf.com> > VCF. See the marks the fire/explosion left on the trailer! > See the bullet > holes from the police shooting at it.... *GRIN* > Oooh. I love to hear that story!!! Ram From infomagic at localisp.com Tue Jul 26 10:41:22 2005 From: infomagic at localisp.com (infomagic) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:41:22 -0400 Subject: Varisystems, Compugraphic (William Maddox) Message-ID: Here's a little background on Varisystems. I'll try to dig up some more info on the hardware, but it will take some time (weeks...). I started working for Varisystems on August 9, 1979, just a few months before they moved from Hauppague, NY (Long Island) to Bohemia, NY (also Long Island). Varisystems was founded by Bob and Owen Shevlin. IIRC, Bob was the computer guy and Owen was the business guy (President). Varisystems did its own design, purchasing, manufacturing, QA, and software. Bob Shevlin had developed a proprietary bit-sliced CPU, made of discrete TTL logic. It had its own bootstrap loader, micro-code, and assembly language, for which Bob had written an assembler. He had also created his own character generator, and all software?tools were?created in numerous languages, naturally with all accented caracters available. Varisystems also developed exceptional editing and composition software to run on this home-made hardware. TheVarisystems units were able to drive the optical output machines from various manufacturers, including Mergenthaler, Bobst, and others. They had a good business going. At about the time I was hired, the Shevlin brothers were in the process of selling Varisystems to Jacuqes Bobst & Fils, a prestigious Swiss phototype company. Bobst's optical typesetters were of the highest quality and expensive, but their editing systems were far less capable. In the acquisition, Bobst got a lot of good front-end design and equipment, and the Shevlins got a lot of money. The rest of us got shafted - as the last of the projects were shipped off to Switzerland, we were all laid off. That was late in 1980, or early 1981. I had been?hired as a Tech Writer to develop the user manual for the "1200" editing terminal, the first standalone editing station they produced. The first version went out with the first production machines in October 79. A second, moreprofessional version, was issued the following spring. I also participated on the design team, providing input on "human factors" for various functions and software messages. The "1200" was intended to offload editing work/time from the expensive "production" machines that drove the output devices. Jobs were transferred via 8" floppies. The "1200" unit was well received in the industry. While I was there, Gavon Balharry (a consultant from Australia) developed the Arabic version of the editing software. It let you choose whether English or Arabic was the "primary" mode, and when you "inserted" text, you could insert either the primary or secondary language. The inserted language always followed its own rules. So if English was primary and you inserted Arabic, it inserted at that point from right to left, and if necessary word wrapped to the next line, also according to the language! All kashidas weredetermined on the fly and as the next character was typed, the kashidas would change to their appropriate next form. I worked closely with Gavon, doing QA testing as he cranked out new compiles... Quite amazing - I think he was truly the only Genius I have ever met. Anyway as I try to recall the hardware, I only remember 8-bit instructions, nothing 16-bit. In fact, the big microprocessor threat on the horizon was the Z80. I'll be cleaning out the garage later this summer, so I'll keep an eye open for any leftover assembly listings... Wish me luck! -John From bernd at kopriva.de Tue Jul 26 11:20:27 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:20:27 +0200 Subject: Anyone in Virginia? In-Reply-To: <1368.207.237.217.134.1122382405.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050726150250.190D43955D@linux.local> It would be nice, if i could put my hands on one of those ... ... anyone who wants to lineup for me ? Ciao Bernd On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:53:25 +0100 (BST), Witchy wrote: > >>> The schools there are selling 1000 Apple ibooks... >>> >>> http://www.henrico.k12.va.us/ >> >> I saw that too. I wonder if anyone here local to the sale might be >> interested >> in working on a group buy for a "finder's and inconvenience fee." > >I'd love one of those, and we're in the US long enough to sort out any >shipping type things..... > >-- >adrian/witchy >Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jul 26 12:03:02 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:03:02 -0400 Subject: Converting GDS files off of some 9tracks... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E66CC6.2080603@atarimuseum.com> Hi, I wanted to see if perhaps any LSI/CAD people may be on the list that have done work on IC layouts from back in the 80's. I have numerous 800BPI 9tracks that contain GDS binary streams on them. I need a conversion app/util to pull the data off of the tapes and back into GDS format. These were done on either Vaxes or Data General's, I couldn't nail down a definitive answer from the original semiconductor designers as to what system they connected to. I could do a image dump from the tapes, but I'd still need some kind of util/app on the PC or Linux side (or even VMS as I also have a 9track hooked to my Vax) to read in and convert the image. Any help would be appreciated, thanks. Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005 From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jul 26 12:20:09 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:20:09 -0500 Subject: Converting GDS files off of some 9tracks... In-Reply-To: <42E66CC6.2080603@atarimuseum.com> References: <42E66CC6.2080603@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050726121907.0542e2a8@mail> At 12:03 PM 7/26/2005, you wrote: >I wanted to see if perhaps any LSI/CAD people may be on the list that have done work on IC layouts from back in the 80's. I have numerous 800BPI 9tracks that contain GDS binary streams on them. GDS ASCII "things" files I might be able to help with, I don't remember their binary format. What did you expect to do with these files? Are they old Atari IC designs? - John From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 26 12:21:14 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:21:14 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3B2's available Message-ID: <002301c59206$6de5e850$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I saw a stash of 3 or so AT&T 3B2 systems. Don't know the exact model, but they are a common one I've seen before. They are a metal white case that normally sits on a desktop. Approximate dimensions are 17" wide, 24" deep, and 17" tall. The scrap dealer said I could have 'em for $35 each. They are not in mint cosmetic shape, one case appears a bit mangled. I have no clue what (if any) cards or drives are inside them. If anyone wants these as-is-site-unseen, let me know asap. Jay From sieler at allegro.com Tue Jul 26 12:37:03 2005 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:37:03 -0700 Subject: disk versus disc In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20050724090721.03aab7a0@pop-server> Message-ID: <42E6124F.3502.2270B545@localhost> Re: > > > > At 08:04 AM 7/24/2005, you wrote: > > >Curiosity for the day - is there any difference between the use of disk > > >and disc when describing floppy drives, hard drives etc.? IIRC, the major IEEE magazines adopted a standard of "disk" for magnetic media, "disc" for optical media ...IIRC, about 5 years ago I asked one of their senior editors about magneto-optical :) He said "disc", because for them the optical overrides the magnetic part. -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From sieler at allegro.com Tue Jul 26 12:43:36 2005 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:43:36 -0700 Subject: Interex shuts down In-Reply-To: <00f801c58cbc$1adf28a0$0b01a8c0@Mike> Message-ID: <42E613D8.15933.2276B325@localhost> Re: > The HP user group, Interex, has abruptly ceased operations due to financial > difficulties. The site is still up, and the publicly accessible information ... > Thought I'd mention it here in case anyone wanted to attempt a rescue of those archives. Several people are working on this, but I haven't heard any progress reports in the last few days. Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jul 26 13:03:36 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:03:36 -0400 Subject: Converting GDS files off of some 9tracks... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050726121907.0542e2a8@mail> References: <42E66CC6.2080603@atarimuseum.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050726121907.0542e2a8@mail> Message-ID: <42E67AF8.8080307@atarimuseum.com> John, I should've emailed you first, since you worked on some of the Atari IC's, you'd know how to work with such tapes, PM me: curt at atarimuseum.com and lets talk, thanks. Curt John Foust wrote: >At 12:03 PM 7/26/2005, you wrote: > > >>I wanted to see if perhaps any LSI/CAD people may be on the list that have done work on IC layouts from back in the 80's. I have numerous 800BPI 9tracks that contain GDS binary streams on them. >> >> > >GDS ASCII "things" files I might be able to help with, >I don't remember their binary format. What did you expect to >do with these files? Are they old Atari IC designs? > >- John > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 7/25/2005 From vp at cs.drexel.edu Tue Jul 26 13:17:05 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP IPC manuals Message-ID: <20050726181705.5E7293BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> I can help with the scanning of the IPC manuals. I am running the HP Series-80 site and I have all the necessary elements for fast scanning. I have borrowed manuals from other people and I have returned them on time without any damage. Let me know if I can help. **vp From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jul 26 13:15:26 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:15:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: ST-506 hard drive emulation" (Jul 26, 14:42) References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435E28@mail.catcorner.org> <1122388932.13599.31.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10507261915.ZM15019@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jul 26 2005, 14:42, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm not sure how complex such a box would be. I *think* an ST506- > interface drive looks pretty much like a big floppy, just with more > heads. Far as I know, it doesn't do anything intelligent on the drive > itself, just responds to head select / step commands from the controller > and reads or writes data. Yes, except normally the step pulses are buffered, so you can send them fast and the drive will handle them at the correct rate. At least, all but the oldest drives do that. That's the main difference between ST506 (not buffered) and ST412 interfaces. > The bit I don't know is the nature of the data signal at the interface - > it uses +/- signal lines for both read and write data. I'm not sure if > that's an analogue signal or a digital one. Digital. > I don't think there's a need to handle anything complex in the virtual > drive. I believe an ST506 drive's purely a data store/replay device and > it knows nothing of the actual data stored on it - most of the circuirty > on board is presumably just motor control and head amplifiers / filters. Correct. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jul 26 13:25:35 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:25:35 -0500 Subject: vcf midwest stuff In-Reply-To: <006201c591f5$d2baf510$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <006201c591f5$d2baf510$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200507261325.35233.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 26 July 2005 10:22, Jay West wrote: > Getting my travel plans together for VCF Midwest this saturday. I > think I'm going to stay in a RedRoof that's about 5 miles east of the > vcf location (I like redroof and the econolodge just didn't strike > me). > > Since VCFm is one day, are people getting together for dinner the > night before, or dinner the day of the show? I'd suggest Saturday night after the VCF. I know at least one other person was interested in doing this. I'll try to figure out some places we can go in my copious spare time. ;) Everyone interested in going can just meet up at the end of the VCF, and then we can go somewhere from there. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 26 13:45:06 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:45:06 +0000 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: <10507261915.ZM15019@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435E28@mail.catcorner.org> <1122388932.13599.31.camel@weka.localdomain> <10507261915.ZM15019@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1122403506.13616.110.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 19:15 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jul 26 2005, 14:42, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I'm not sure how complex such a box would be. I *think* an ST506- > > interface drive looks pretty much like a big floppy, just with more > > heads. Far as I know, it doesn't do anything intelligent on the drive > > itself, just responds to head select / step commands from the > controller > > and reads or writes data. > > Yes, except normally the step pulses are buffered, so you can send them > fast and the drive will handle them at the correct rate. At least, all > but the oldest drives do that. That's the main difference between > ST506 (not buffered) and ST412 interfaces. I suppose that's possibly not relevant for a solid-state replacement though, as the device's ability to virtually step tracks will be far faster than any controller of the period would produce? > > The bit I don't know is the nature of the data signal at the interface - > > it uses +/- signal lines for both read and write data. I'm not sure if > > that's an analogue signal or a digital one. > > Digital. Well that bit's easy then :) > > I don't think there's a need to handle anything complex in the virtual > > drive. I believe an ST506 drive's purely a data store/replay device and > > it knows nothing of the actual data stored on it - most of the circuirty > > on board is presumably just motor control and head amplifiers / filters. > > Correct. I did just get to puzzling about what sort of sampling rate would be needed to properly record data from the controller. I suppose the device just needs enough memory per "track" to match the bit density * platter circumference of whatever drive's being simulated. cheers Jules From news at computercollector.com Tue Jul 26 13:50:12 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:50:12 -0400 Subject: vcf midwest stuff In-Reply-To: <200507261325.35233.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200507261856.j6QIu5G6028898@keith.ezwind.net> Rumor has it that at VCF East last year, Hans Franke ordered TWO hamburger platters for his entr?e. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 2:26 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: vcf midwest stuff On Tuesday 26 July 2005 10:22, Jay West wrote: > Getting my travel plans together for VCF Midwest this saturday. I > think I'm going to stay in a RedRoof that's about 5 miles east of the > vcf location (I like redroof and the econolodge just didn't strike > me). > > Since VCFm is one day, are people getting together for dinner the > night before, or dinner the day of the show? I'd suggest Saturday night after the VCF. I know at least one other person was interested in doing this. I'll try to figure out some places we can go in my copious spare time. ;) Everyone interested in going can just meet up at the end of the VCF, and then we can go somewhere from there. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 26 13:01:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:01:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: <1122388932.13599.31.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 26, 5 02:42:12 pm Message-ID: > I'm not sure how complex such a box would be. I *think* an ST506- > interface drive looks pretty much like a big floppy, just with more Correct. Don't uou have at least one ST506/ST412-interfaced drive schematic? > heads. Far as I know, it doesn't do anything intelligent on the drive > itself, just responds to head select / step commands from the controller > and reads or writes data. > > The bit I don't know is the nature of the data signal at the interface - > it uses +/- signal lines for both read and write data. I'm not sure if > that's an analogue signal or a digital one. It's differentical digital. The line drivers are 26LS31s, the receivers 26LS32s (at least normally). It's much the same as the floppy read data / write data line, just faster. The problem is that although the signal is digital in amplitude (2 states), it's analogue in time. There are restrictions (both minimum and maximum) on the time between data pulses, but apart from that you can essentailly do what you like. The drive does not impose any restrictions on the data format, the format of the sector header, etc. You could write 18 bit words if you wanted to. > > I could imagine a device containing a pile of non-volatile memory in a > row/column arrangement. There'd be a free-running counter to address the > memory row and simulate the rotation of the drive (this would also drive > the index line when at address 0). Then there'd be a second counter > linked to the memory column and controlled by the step line on the > interface, in order to simulate a drive track; this would also drive the > track 0 line when at address 0. > > OK, that's only simulating a single head; but it just scales up with > more memory planes to simulate more platter surfaces. You need to sample and replay at about 10 times the data rate. That's 50MHz. Do-able, but a bit harder than you imply. You need to keep on replaying a given track's data, and do the right thing (I nearly said write thing :-() if write gate gets asserted. Remember the interface is bit serial, preesumably your memory is at least 8 bits wide, you may well have to start writing in the middle of a memory word. As I said, it's not that difficult, just a bit harder than you may have first thoguth. -tony From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Jul 26 13:58:59 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 05 18:58:59 GMT Subject: device programmer recommendations? Message-ID: <0507261858.AA05845@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Bruce Lane wrote: > I almost forgot to mention... All the Data I/O programmers I mentioned > in my last note have a distinct advantage over many others: They will > work with nothing more than a 'dumb' ASCII terminal attached to their > serial port for control. But how would you then get the image to be programmed into the box? Does it support something like XMODEM/YMODEM/ZMODEM/Kermit on the terminal port, or is an ASCII terminal not really sufficient, i.e., maybe they can only use a terminal to control mass duplication, but initialing image loading still requires a Losedows box? MS From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 14:11:22 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:11:22 -0500 Subject: device programmer recommendations? In-Reply-To: <0507261858.AA05845@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0507261858.AA05845@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On 7/26/05, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Bruce Lane wrote: > > > I almost forgot to mention... All the Data I/O programmers I mentioned > > in my last note have a distinct advantage over many others: They will > > work with nothing more than a 'dumb' ASCII terminal attached to their > > serial port for control. > > But how would you then get the image to be programmed into the box? Does > it support something like XMODEM/YMODEM/ZMODEM/Kermit on the terminal > port, or is an ASCII terminal not really sufficient, i.e., maybe they > can only use a terminal to control mass duplication, but initialing image > loading still requires a Losedows box? I haven't worked with ASCII download to the 29A or 29B, but with other 1980s-era device programmers, what I've seen is an interactive menu scheme, then at some point, you type a letter to begin entering some sort of known ASCII file format (Intel Hex for EPROMs, compiled PALASM files for this one bipolar PAL blaster I have...), then escape from the comm program, then send a file from the host to the blaster as if a human were typing it, then re-enter the line and enter the command to end editing, and you are ready to blast. Of course, one _could_ just type in the data, one letter at a time, but the risk of data entry error is high. On modern systems, I'd probably use either Kermit (ASCII, not Kermit-protocol transfer) or minicom (also has raw ASCII file transfer functionality) to send files to such a device. I'd love to know what a 29B wants in terms of logic device programming input, and what external tools I'd need to go from either a PLD file or a JEDEC file. If the 29B takes unaltered JEDEC files, that'd be great. -ethan From dwight.elvey at AMD.COM Tue Jul 26 14:56:51 2005 From: dwight.elvey at AMD.COM (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation Message-ID: <200507261956.MAA07232@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" ---snip--- > >> > The bit I don't know is the nature of the data signal at the interface - >> > it uses +/- signal lines for both read and write data. I'm not sure if >> > that's an analogue signal or a digital one. >> >> Digital. > >Well that bit's easy then :) > > ---snip--- Hi Digital but self clocked. On the write side it is a pulse to the write amplifier. On the read, it is a pulse indication a transition at the head. The pulse width is not important on the read but does have a min/max. Write pulses need to be the correct width to tighter tolerance. Time between pulses is the most important element. But, yes, digital differential signals. Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 26 15:11:24 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:11:24 +0000 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1122408684.13599.121.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 19:01 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > I'm not sure how complex such a box would be. I *think* an ST506- > > interface drive looks pretty much like a big floppy, just with more > > Correct. Don't uou have at least one ST506/ST412-interfaced drive schematic? Nope, unfortunately not :-( I've got various manuals for bridge boards, which of course have the connector pin-outs in (and give some of the theory), but nothing for a complete hard drive (I suppose I'mactually surprised such schematics ever escaped the drive manufactuers to be honest, as presumably ST506/412 units were never supposed to be field servicable?) > > heads. Far as I know, it doesn't do anything intelligent on the drive > > itself, just responds to head select / step commands from the controller > > and reads or writes data. > > > > The bit I don't know is the nature of the data signal at the interface - > > it uses +/- signal lines for both read and write data. I'm not sure if > > that's an analogue signal or a digital one. > > It's differentical digital. The line drivers are 26LS31s, the receivers > 26LS32s (at least normally). It's much the same as the floppy read data / > write data line, just faster. Aha, good. > The problem is that although the signal is digital in amplitude (2 > states), it's analogue in time. There are restrictions (both minimum and > maximum) on the time between data pulses, but apart from that you can > essentailly do what you like. The drive does not impose any restrictions > on the data format, the format of the sector header, etc. You could write > 18 bit words if you wanted to. I was googling for the proper spec earlier but so far haven't been able to find it :-( (presumably because it's not something hobbyists ever really messed with) > You need to sample and replay at about 10 times the data rate. That's > 50MHz. Do-able, but a bit harder than you imply. If 8x is enough then that could make the logic easy I suppose, with 8 bit wide memory (some sort of shift register for writes, only clock data into memory on every 8th clock pulse say). Whether something like compact flash will handle that data rate though... perhaps it requires buffering at the track level and only writing to flash on track changes (which the controller presumably expects to be quite slow). It gets a bit complicated at that point! cheers Jules From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Jul 26 15:15:10 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:15:10 -0500 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: <1122408684.13599.121.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1122408684.13599.121.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050726151413.042507f0@mail.earthlink.net> At 03:11 PM 7/26/2005, Jules Richardson wrote: >On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 19:01 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I'm not sure how complex such a box would be. I *think* an ST506- > > > interface drive looks pretty much like a big floppy, just with more > > > > Correct. Don't uou have at least one ST506/ST412-interfaced drive > schematic? the IBM XT Technical Reference manual has schematics for the 10meg hard drive that was in the XT From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jul 26 15:18:54 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:18:54 -0400 Subject: Post/pin combination... Message-ID: I just got the two Sol enhancement boards I recently won on ebay. They appear to be designed to integrate into the Sol mainly via the removal of a number of chips on the main board and plugging the upgrade boards into the sockets. To accomplish this, the boards have a large number of post/pin parts soldered onto the boards with the pin ends pointing down. On one board, two of the pins are broken off. The parts are gold plated, about 2cm in length total. The post part is about 1.2cm long and a little less than 1mm in diameter. Then, there is a short section that looks like what you would expect a pin from a quality machined pin dip socket to look like if you took it out of the plastic. It is about 4mm long varying diameter between 1.5mm and 2mm. Then comes the pin itself about 4mm long, less than .5mm in diameter. I can't seem to find a source for these. Any ideas appreciated, Bill From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jul 26 15:21:48 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:21:48 -0400 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:15:26 BST." <10507261915.ZM15019@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200507262021.j6QKLmvB022692@mwave.heeltoe.com> >On Jul 26 2005, 14:42, Jules Richardson wrote: > ... >> I don't think there's a need to handle anything complex in the virtual >> drive. I believe an ST506 drive's purely a data store/replay device and >> it knows nothing of the actual data stored on it - most of the circuirty >> on board is presumably just motor control and head amplifiers / filters. You'd need to encode the bits correctly so the data/clock seperator worked, and send the index pulse. But other than that it's just a bit stream. humm.... :-) As I recall the interface is essentially 5V TTL. I'm sitting here starting at an arm cpu with a cpld on it and about 34 gio pins, all 5v compatible... hummm... :-) I wonder if this little SAM7S cpu could keep up. hummm.... -brad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 26 15:02:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:02:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: <1122408684.13599.121.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 26, 5 08:11:24 pm Message-ID: > > Correct. Don't uou have at least one ST506/ST412-interfaced drive schematic? > > Nope, unfortunately not :-( I've got various manuals for bridge boards, > which of course have the connector pin-outs in (and give some of the > theory), but nothing for a complete hard drive (I suppose I'mactually > surprised such schematics ever escaped the drive manufactuers to be > honest, as presumably ST506/412 units were never supposed to be field > servicable?) THe HDAs were not field-repairable, but the PCBs certainly were/are. The IBM PC series TechResf contain schematics of some such drives (which ones depends on exactly which version fo the TechRef amd which updates you have). I've traced out a couple more. In general these drives are not particularly complicated, although there may well be ASICs for things like head switching, motor control, etc. I must get at least one of the latter diagrems to you ay some point. -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jul 26 15:24:31 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:24:31 -0400 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:01:38 BST." Message-ID: <200507262024.j6QKOVb8023560@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tony Duell wrote: > >You need to sample and replay at about 10 times the data rate. That's >50MHz. 10x? Why 10x? I seem to recall digital data seperators which sampled 2-3 times the data rate. Maybe those brain cells washed away. maybe I'm thinking of floppies. -brad From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 15:30:15 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:30:15 -0700 Subject: device programmer recommendations? In-Reply-To: <00b001c5919e$9e9348c0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200507251740040922.0700885D@192.168.42.129> <1e1fc3e905072521391d6aaf78@mail.gmail.com> <00b001c5919e$9e9348c0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e9050726133079bb3f87@mail.gmail.com> > Odd.... Promlink works with the 29B, and it's available for free download at > several places on the net. I'm not sure promlink supports the unisite, but > I'm thinking it does... > > Jay In addition to whatever software you use to communicate with a 2900/3900/Unisite, I believe they all need to boot from a boot floppy and the programming algorithms are supplied on floppy and without those the programmer is useless. Maybe you can find free images of the boot and algorithm floppies on the net, but probably not legal images. I'm sure that doesn't bother some people, but might bother others. Data I/O sells a subcription service to their algorithm updates. I don't see a price listed. If you have to ask is it too expensive? http://www.dataio.com/algorithms/keepcurrent.asp From bernd at kopriva.de Tue Jul 26 15:45:36 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:45:36 +0200 Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050726192802.8578F3955D@linux.local> Ok, i bite a little bit in the dust ... ... and searched for the manual. It's the "Peripheral Installation Guide" (97005-90000). It says : use address 2 if only one other disc drive is available beside the 9122, use address 3, if there are two drives. This applies to 9121 as well. The more important sentence is : 9121/9122 are supported for Series 200 with Boot Rom 3.0 or later and Boot Rom Rev.A for all Series 300 systems ... On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:25:57 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: >> ... i've done that. I had a 9122 connected to a HP9836 and i could boot from >> the 9122 without any problems. If i remember correctly, you have to specify >> a specific HP-IB address for the 9122 (i found that in one of the manuals, >> unfortunately i don't have that at hand at the moment ...) > >OK, when I get the machine out again (which, as I said last night, won't >be for several months), I'll give it a go. IIRC, the HP drives only let >you set addresses 0 to 7, so it's not a big job to try them all. > >-tony > Hope that helps ! Ciao Bernd From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Tue Jul 26 15:53:23 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:53:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Terminal emulators - rgb values for amber, green? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e9050726133079bb3f87@mail.gmail.com> References: <200507251740040922.0700885D@192.168.42.129> <1e1fc3e905072521391d6aaf78@mail.gmail.com> <00b001c5919e$9e9348c0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <1e1fc3e9050726133079bb3f87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50856.68.155.19.40.1122411203.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> I was just setting up Tera Term Pro on my windows box (talk about overkill - 1.4Ghz and 768MB to run an ascii terminal!) and was configuring the colors, and realized I always fiddle around with the RGB values until they look right. I always create one config for amber on black, and another for green on black (I'm moody and sometimes use one, sometimes another). Are there "standard" RGB values for Amber and Green monochrome monitors, or did each manufacturer make them different? What color schemes do you use? How about terminal emulators? Jeff From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 26 16:01:50 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:01:50 +0000 Subject: Terminal emulators - rgb values for amber, green? In-Reply-To: <50856.68.155.19.40.1122411203.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> References: <200507251740040922.0700885D@192.168.42.129> <1e1fc3e905072521391d6aaf78@mail.gmail.com> <00b001c5919e$9e9348c0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <1e1fc3e9050726133079bb3f87@mail.gmail.com> <50856.68.155.19.40.1122411203.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> Message-ID: <1122411710.13599.125.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 16:53 -0400, Jeff Davis wrote: > I was just setting up Tera Term Pro on my windows box (talk about overkill - > 1.4Ghz and 768MB to run an ascii terminal!) with that sort of speed you could probably emulate the CRT of the original terminal itself, with all the gaps between lines and the light fall-off around each pixel :-) cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 26 16:15:32 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation Message-ID: <200507262115.OAA07249@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I shouldn't be saying this because I'm not sure when I'll be able to look for it but I'm almost sure I have the schematics for a 5 Meg Seagate drive someplace in my piles. It might be a month or so before I come across it. I, also, am almost sure I have a ST506 signal specification booklet from Seagate as well. I'll do some digging soon but I'm not where the piles are, except on weekend ( but not this next weekend ). Dwight >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> > Correct. Don't uou have at least one ST506/ST412-interfaced drive schematic? >> >> Nope, unfortunately not :-( I've got various manuals for bridge boards, >> which of course have the connector pin-outs in (and give some of the >> theory), but nothing for a complete hard drive (I suppose I'mactually >> surprised such schematics ever escaped the drive manufactuers to be >> honest, as presumably ST506/412 units were never supposed to be field >> servicable?) > >THe HDAs were not field-repairable, but the PCBs certainly were/are. > >The IBM PC series TechResf contain schematics of some such drives (which >ones depends on exactly which version fo the TechRef amd which updates >you have). I've traced out a couple more. In general these drives are not >particularly complicated, although there may well be ASICs for things >like head switching, motor control, etc. > >I must get at least one of the latter diagrems to you ay some point. > >-tony > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 26 16:17:28 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:17:28 -0700 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation Message-ID: I was googling for the proper spec earlier but so far haven't been able to find it :-( (presumably because it's not something hobbyists ever really messed with) -- This has been discussed several times in the past year on cctalk. The best overview was published by National when they were building disc controller chips. Unfortunately, cctalk's archive is out of sync with what Google thinks. Look for "disc simuatlors" as the topic, but look at the cached copy of the page. Here is what I wrote the last time: A good overview of disc formats can be found in two National app notes http://www.national.com/apnotes/Others__v17.html AN-413 AN-501 describes the SMD interface, but National doesn't have it on line any more. It can be found at: http://manuales.elo.utfsm.cl/datasheet/national/pdf/nsc04334.pdf There are lots of other related app notes there related to using their disc chipsets which would be handy as well From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 26 16:20:57 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:20:57 -0700 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation Message-ID: <69b2b9a95144c572c9d1148a03d6703e@bitsavers.org> I shouldn't be saying this because I'm not sure when I'll be able to look for it but I'm almost sure I have the schematics for a 5 Meg Seagate drive someplace in my piles. -- Try http:/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/seagate/ST506_ServiceMan_May82.pdf or the National tech notes. From fernande at internet1.net Tue Jul 26 16:23:45 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:23:45 -0400 Subject: Cleaning out storage room FREE ITEMS Message-ID: <42E6A9E1.90007@internet1.net> Hi All, Doing a little sorting. The following items are free , plus the cost of shipping rounded to the next dollar. I'm in southwest Michigan. -OS/2 Warp 3 Connect Red label (in box, good condition) -Windows NT 3.51 (in box, good condition) -Windows for Workgroups 3.11 (in box, good condition) -WordPerfect 6.0 for DOS (in box, ok condition) -WordPerfect 6.0 for Windows (in box, ok condition) -Symantec The Norton Utilities (Windows/DOS) Version 8 (in box, ok condition) -Kickstart 1 (power-on self-test diagnostic card) for IBM PC, XT, AT, and compatibles (in box, good condition) -Microsolutions "backpack" parallel port cd-rom (given to me, I didn't try too hard to make it work on my IBM Model 80..... it didn't go, but Reply board in the Model 80 can be a bit fussy) -Hayes Products joy stick for the IBM PC (in box, good condition) -Adaptec AHA-2744W Differential SCSI adapter (in shipping box, ok condition) -Wordstar .... seems to be 5.5 and 5 Professional.... lots of disks, and manual (in box, good condition) More to come later...... Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From dwight.elvey at AMD.COM Tue Jul 26 16:28:07 2005 From: dwight.elvey at AMD.COM (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation Message-ID: <200507262128.OAA07339@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Al Kossow" > > > I shouldn't be saying this because I'm not sure when >I'll be able to look for it but I'm almost sure I have >the schematics for a 5 Meg Seagate drive someplace in my piles. > >-- > > >Try > >http:/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/seagate/ST506_ServiceMan_May82.pdf > >or the National tech notes. > > Hi AL Thanks, I think those are the ones I have. Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 26 16:30:15 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:30:15 +0000 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1122413415.13616.130.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 14:17 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > I was googling for the proper spec earlier but so far haven't been able > to find it :-( (presumably because it's not something hobbyists ever > really messed with) > > -- > > This has been discussed several times in the past year on cctalk. Yep... I think the last time was using a modern hard disk though; I'd not thought about it from the point of view of using some sort of nvram (which might be a bit easier to address) > A good overview of disc formats can be found in two National app notes > > http://www.national.com/apnotes/Others__v17.html > > AN-413 > > AN-501 describes the SMD interface, but National doesn't have it on line > any more. It can be found at: > > http://manuales.elo.utfsm.cl/datasheet/national/pdf/nsc04334.pdf > Thanks! I just found that the ST506 service manual's on bitsavers too and seems to have the drive schematics in :-) cheers Jules From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 26 16:42:51 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:42:51 -0700 Subject: Release Software to the Public Domain? Message-ID: <42E6AE5B.F4AD7ED3@rain.org> A friend of mine passed away last week, and I am in the process of getting all the classic computer stuff from his house. Somewhere in all of this I am told that he wrote quite a few utility programs for CP/M. While I don't think it would make any difference, the executor of his estate is willing to sign a document stating that anything he wrote is now in the public domain. Question; what kind of document is available to do this? BTW, so far I've collected at least half a dozen Kaypros, one Osborne, and a number of others. I will be going over to start on the garage in a few minutes. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 26 16:49:22 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:49:22 +0100 Subject: Release Software to the Public Domain? In-Reply-To: <42E6AE5B.F4AD7ED3@rain.org> Message-ID: <000801c5922b$e3950390$c901a8c0@flexpc> >While I don't think it would make any difference, the >executor of his estate is willing to sign a document >stating that anything he wrote is now in the public > domain. Question; what kind of document is available to do this? I'm sure GNU have one that they ask you to sign when you turn over code to them. Perhaps that would do? I assume that the GNU docs are freely usable :-) Antonio From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jul 26 17:04:42 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:04:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: vcf midwest stuff In-Reply-To: <200507261856.j6QIu5G6028898@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > Rumor has it that at VCF East last year, Hans Franke ordered TWO hamburger > platters for his entr?e. I heard that rumor as well. I also heard a rumor that Mr. Franke was put to shame by another classiccmp member at the main dinner. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jul 26 17:05:12 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:05:12 -0400 Subject: Release Software to the Public Domain? References: <42E6AE5B.F4AD7ED3@rain.org> <000801c5922b$e3950390$c901a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <17126.45976.792717.377938@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Antonio" == Antonio Carlini writes: >> While I don't think it would make any difference, the executor of >> his estate is willing to sign a document stating that anything he >> wrote is now in the public domain. Question; what kind of document >> is available to do this? Antonio> I'm sure GNU have one that they ask you to sign when you Antonio> turn over code to them. Perhaps that would do? Not a chance. GNU stuff is NOT in the public domain. paul From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 26 16:59:05 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:59:05 -0400 Subject: device programmer recommendations? In-Reply-To: References: <0507261858.AA05845@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <0507261858.AA05845@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050726175905.0089c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:11 PM 7/26/05 -0500, Ethan wrote: > >I'd love to know what a 29B wants in terms of logic device programming >input, and what external tools I'd need to go from either a PLD file >or a JEDEC file. If the 29B takes unaltered JEDEC files, that'd be >great. I just checked. According to the Logic Pak manual it both transmits and recieves standard JEDEC files. IIRC if you have the PALASM plug-in for the Logic Pak then you can type in logic equations and it will compile them into the appropriate fuse map in (IIRC) JEDEC format. I bought all the necessary plug-ins and manuals for a project a couple of years ago but the project got scratched and I've never used the stuff so I'm operating from memory here. I have all the manuals for the 29B, Logic Pak, PALASM plug-in and several of the PAL adapters, you're welcome to borrow them and scan them if they're not already posted somewhere. Joe > >-ethan > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 26 16:52:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:52:04 -0400 Subject: device programmer recommendations? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e9050726133079bb3f87@mail.gmail.com> References: <00b001c5919e$9e9348c0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200507251740040922.0700885D@192.168.42.129> <1e1fc3e905072521391d6aaf78@mail.gmail.com> <00b001c5919e$9e9348c0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050726175204.00885730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:30 PM 7/26/05 -0700, Glen wrote: >> Odd.... Promlink works with the 29B, and it's available for free download at >> several places on the net. I'm not sure promlink supports the unisite, but >> I'm thinking it does... >> >> Jay > >In addition to whatever software you use to communicate with a >2900/3900/Unisite, I believe they all need to boot from a boot floppy >and the programming algorithms are supplied on floppy and without >those the programmer is useless. You're exactly right, you DO need software just to operate the Unisite. I believe that also applies to the 2900/3900 but I have no experience with them. FYI you don't really need the PROMLink program. It's basicly a terminal emulator program and gives you the ability to send and recieve files but as far as I can tell it doesn't really do anything that many commonly available terminal programs don't also do. Joe Maybe you can find free images of >the boot and algorithm floppies on the net, but probably not legal >images. I'm sure that doesn't bother some people, but might bother >others. > >Data I/O sells a subcription service to their algorithm updates. I >don't see a price listed. If you have to ask is it too expensive? > >http://www.dataio.com/algorithms/keepcurrent.asp > > From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Tue Jul 26 17:12:25 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Release Software to the Public Domain? In-Reply-To: <000801c5922b$e3950390$c901a8c0@flexpc> References: <42E6AE5B.F4AD7ED3@rain.org> <000801c5922b$e3950390$c901a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <50369.65.6.28.67.1122415945.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> On Tue, July 26, 2005 5:49 pm, Antonio Carlini said: > >>While I don't think it would make any difference, the >>executor of his estate is willing to sign a document >>stating that anything he wrote is now in the public >> domain. Question; what kind of document is available to do this? > > I'm sure GNU have one that they ask you to sign when you > turn over code to them. Perhaps that would do? IANAL, but the GNU license is not really public domain; it puts restrictions on how the code can be used (derivative works must release source, credit must be given, etc). I think the older term "Public Domain" is more like transferring all rights for use to the general public, with no restrictions (or warranty) on how it is used. Creative Commons has a public domain license, along with a place to store the content and publicize the license. It *might* not be for software, but it's an informative site and does have a link to the text of a public domain license: http://creativecommons.org/license/ Jeff From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 17:24:09 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:24:09 -0500 Subject: device programmer recommendations? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050726175905.0089c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <0507261858.AA05845@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <3.0.6.32.20050726175905.0089c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 7/26/05, Joe R. wrote: > I just checked. According to the Logic Pak manual it both transmits and > recieves standard JEDEC files. Perfect. > IIRC if you have the PALASM plug-in for the Logic Pak then you can type > in logic equations and it will compile them into the appropriate fuse map > in (IIRC) JEDEC format. I bought all the necessary plug-ins and manuals for > a project a couple of years ago but the project got scratched and I've > never used the stuff so I'm operating from memory here. > > I have all the manuals for the 29B, Logic Pak, PALASM plug-in and > several of the PAL adapters, you're welcome to borrow them and scan them if > they're not already posted somewhere. I may get ahold of you later on that. I'm working a deal on a 29B with lots of goodies, but I won't know what's included for a few days yet. I'll get back to you, possibly after I get back from vacation in mid-August, possibly before I leave - it all depends on how this deal works out. Thanks, -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 26 17:10:24 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:10:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: <200507262021.j6QKLmvB022692@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Jul 26, 5 04:21:48 pm Message-ID: > > > >On Jul 26 2005, 14:42, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > ... > >> I don't think there's a need to handle anything complex in the virtual > >> drive. I believe an ST506 drive's purely a data store/replay device and > >> it knows nothing of the actual data stored on it - most of the circuirty > >> on board is presumably just motor control and head amplifiers / filters. > > You'd need to encode the bits correctly so the data/clock seperator That's just what I'd not want to do. You can't make any asumptions about the clock/data encoding scheme if you want this emulator to be universal (after all, a real ST506 doesn't do anything to the pulse stream other than record it on the disk, unchanged [1]). That was the reason for the high (10*, 8* would probably be OK as well) sampling rate. Just record the pulses to memory, then play them back. Yes, it's wasteful of memory, but it means it should work with any ST506 controller (and there are some very strange ones in classic computers). [1] THat is a simplfication. IIRC, a rising (falling?) edge of the write data line causes a flux transition on the disk. The opposite edge is ignored. On read, a flux transition on the disk causes a pulse on the read data line, the width of this pulse is fixed (determined by a one-shot on the drive logic board). There are restrictions as to how fast and how slowly you can send pulses, due to the design of the read amplifier/filter. -tony From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Jul 26 17:43:01 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:43:01 -0500 Subject: Cleaning out storage room FREE ITEMS In-Reply-To: <42E6A9E1.90007@internet1.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050726174145.00c185d8@localhost> At 05:23 PM 7/26/2005 -0400, you wrote: >-Adaptec AHA-2744W Differential SCSI adapter (in shipping box, ok condition) What bus (host) does this plug into? I think I may be interested. If it plugs into anything I have, I'm vERY interested. [Hmmm] Truth exists; it is falsehood that has to be invented. - Author Unknown --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 26 17:44:19 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:44:19 -0500 Subject: device programmer recommendations? References: <0507261858.AA05845@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <005101c59233$8fb35850$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bruce wrote... >> I almost forgot to mention... All the Data I/O programmers I mentioned >> in my last note have a distinct advantage over many others: They will >> work with nothing more than a 'dumb' ASCII terminal attached to their >> serial port for control. Yes, but the 29B does not REQUIRE a terminal. > But how would you then get the image to be programmed into the box? Does > it support something like XMODEM/YMODEM/ZMODEM/Kermit on the terminal > port, or is an ASCII terminal not really sufficient, i.e., maybe they > can only use a terminal to control mass duplication, but initialing image > loading still requires a Losedows box? Well, the obvious way. Put an original chip in the machine and hit the read button :) The other way... enter via front panel. The other other way - hook up a computer and send the image to the ram in the 29B. The protocol is not difficult at all. It's not Xmodem, but... easy nontheless. Jay From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 26 17:54:44 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation Message-ID: <200507262254.PAA07380@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk >> >> >> >On Jul 26 2005, 14:42, Jules Richardson wrote: >> > >> ... >> >> I don't think there's a need to handle anything complex in the virtual >> >> drive. I believe an ST506 drive's purely a data store/replay device and >> >> it knows nothing of the actual data stored on it - most of the circuirty >> >> on board is presumably just motor control and head amplifiers / filters. >> >> You'd need to encode the bits correctly so the data/clock seperator > >That's just what I'd not want to do. You can't make any asumptions about >the clock/data encoding scheme if you want this emulator to be universal >(after all, a real ST506 doesn't do anything to the pulse stream other than >record it on the disk, unchanged [1]). > >That was the reason for the high (10*, 8* would probably be OK as well) >sampling rate. Just record the pulses to memory, then play them back. >Yes, it's wasteful of memory, but it means it should work with any ST506 >controller (and there are some very strange ones in classic computers). > >[1] THat is a simplfication. IIRC, a rising (falling?) edge of the write >data line causes a flux transition on the disk. The opposite edge is >ignored. On read, a flux transition on the disk causes a pulse on the >read data line, the width of this pulse is fixed (determined by a >one-shot on the drive logic board). There are restrictions as to how fast >and how slowly you can send pulses, due to the design of the read >amplifier/filter. > >-tony > > Hi This is my understanding as well. This means that you can't just play back the signal written. The write signal has compensation for the timing shift caused by signals being close together on the disk surface. This tends to alter the edge timing. This is the information that you are trying to recover or play back. The sampling systems used to read the data back would not work well with the unprocessed write data going into them because of the compensation used. You'd need to provide a filter that is the equivalent of the writing and reading of data through the disk. Then you'd need to find the leading edges and generate the pulses that are read. I would say that 8X to 10X is a reasonable sampling rate but you'd still need to process the data before sending it back as read data. Dwight From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Jul 26 18:08:14 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 05 23:08:14 GMT Subject: device programmer recommendations? Message-ID: <0507262308.AA06424@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Jay West wrote: > The other other way - hook > up a computer and send the image to the ram in the 29B. The protocol is not > difficult at all. It's not Xmodem, but... easy nontheless. But is it documented? Can I write the necessary software myself? As you know I run my own operating system that no one else in the Universe uses and I cannot run any software not written from scratch by me. Is the interface EIA-232? It's the only interface that's Classic enough, standard enough and universal enough for me to use. Oh, and can it work with baud rates of 38400 or lower? I can't use higher baud rates because they are not standard in the Classic (non-pee sea) world. MS From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 26 18:20:29 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:20:29 +0000 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: <200507262254.PAA07380@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200507262254.PAA07380@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1122420029.13599.152.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 15:54 -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >[1] THat is a simplfication. IIRC, a rising (falling?) edge of the write > >data line causes a flux transition on the disk. The opposite edge is > >ignored. On read, a flux transition on the disk causes a pulse on the > >read data line, the width of this pulse is fixed (determined by a > >one-shot on the drive logic board). There are restrictions as to how fast > >and how slowly you can send pulses, due to the design of the read > >amplifier/filter. > > > > Hi > This is my understanding as well. This means that you can't > just play back the signal written. The write signal > has compensation for the timing shift caused by signals > being close together on the disk surface. I was worried about the precomp too. However I think that for ST412 drives at least, the precomp's done within the drive; the controller knows nothing about it. I *think* it's only relevant for ST506 drives (<= 8 heads), and even then not all drives used it. At least that's what I gathered from some googling earlier - haven't had a chance to look at the docs mentioned on here earlier yet. I wonder what the bit density of one of these drives is? I mean, is it possible to simulate a whole raw track in memory, so that it doesn't matter about timing as you're essentially digitising the disk surface at 1 bit / sample. Maybe that requres a *huge* amount of storage though, but I'm presuming the bit density figure is the smallest transition that the drive can handle, and no amount of messing around through external write precomp will change that? Again, it's wasteful - but it really would be a raw snapshop the drive. cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 26 18:16:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vcf midwest stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > Rumor has it that at VCF East last year, Hans Franke ordered TWO hamburger > > platters for his entr?e. > > I heard that rumor as well. I also heard a rumor that Mr. Franke was put > to shame by another classiccmp member at the main dinner. Since I won't be there to nanny Hans, will someone please chide him when he overeats and stuffs his face with unhealthy comestibles? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Jul 26 18:40:56 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: <1122420029.13599.152.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200507262254.PAA07380@clulw009.amd.com> <1122420029.13599.152.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 15:54 -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk >>> [1] THat is a simplfication. IIRC, a rising (falling?) edge of the write >>> data line causes a flux transition on the disk. The opposite edge is >>> ignored. On read, a flux transition on the disk causes a pulse on the >>> read data line, the width of this pulse is fixed (determined by a >>> one-shot on the drive logic board). There are restrictions as to how fast >>> and how slowly you can send pulses, due to the design of the read >>> amplifier/filter. >>> >> >> Hi >> This is my understanding as well. This means that you can't >> just play back the signal written. The write signal >> has compensation for the timing shift caused by signals >> being close together on the disk surface. > > I was worried about the precomp too. However I think that for ST412 > drives at least, the precomp's done within the drive; the controller > knows nothing about it. > > I *think* it's only relevant for ST506 drives (<= 8 heads), and even > then not all drives used it. > > At least that's what I gathered from some googling earlier - haven't had > a chance to look at the docs mentioned on here earlier yet. > > I wonder what the bit density of one of these drives is? I mean, is it > possible to simulate a whole raw track in memory, so that it doesn't > matter about timing as you're essentially digitising the disk surface at > 1 bit / sample. Maybe that requres a *huge* amount of storage though, > but I'm presuming the bit density figure is the smallest transition that > the drive can handle, and no amount of messing around through external > write precomp will change that? > > Again, it's wasteful - but it really would be a raw snapshop the drive. > > cheers > > Jules > Even at 16X sampling (80 MHz) a 1/60 second snapshot is only 1.33 million samples per track. You probably only need one track buffer so this is < 256k Bytes of RAM. With say 32 bit data storage thats only a 2.5 MW/sec data rate so the controller could be easily done with a FPGA or even CPLD and a dedicated fairly fast CPU. Peter Wallace From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jul 26 18:47:04 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:47:04 -0400 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:10:24 BST." Message-ID: <200507262347.j6QNl44B002744@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> You'd need to encode the bits correctly so the data/clock seperator > >That's just what I'd not want to do. You can't make any asumptions about >the clock/data encoding scheme if you want this emulator to be universal >(after all, a real ST506 doesn't do anything to the pulse stream other than >record it on the disk, unchanged [1]). > >That was the reason for the high (10*, 8* would probably be OK as well) >sampling rate. Just record the pulses to memory, then play them back. Ah, sorry. I didn't get it. You want it to be universal. I was thinking you could act like most common controllers and encode data that was actually on a server, a sort of "nfs server with an st-506 interface". I never thought about it the way you are proposing... hummm... :-) thanks! -brad (lately I've been making MSCP disk images with simh and then dd'ing them onto zip drives and booting them on an pdp-11, so you can see why I'd be in the 'server' mindset. I really want a SCSI server....) From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Jul 26 18:54:39 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:54:39 -0500 Subject: Cleaning out storage room FREE ITEMS In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050726174145.00c185d8@localhost> References: <42E6A9E1.90007@internet1.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050726185342.00bf52c0@localhost> At 05:43 PM 7/26/2005 -0500, you wrote: >At 05:23 PM 7/26/2005 -0400, you wrote: >>-Adaptec AHA-2744W Differential SCSI adapter (in shipping box, ok condition) >What bus (host) does this plug into? I think I may be interested. If it >plugs into anything I have, I'm vERY interested. Oh drat, answering my own question, that's an EISA bus card. If only it were a 2944. [Love] Men like to pursue an elusive woman, like a cake of wet soap in a bathtub - even men who hate baths. --Gelett Burgess (1866-1951) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 26 18:55:55 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:55:55 -0500 Subject: HP 9121 9122 drives Message-ID: <001301c5923d$907cde50$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Anyone have docs & schematics for these? Dare I ask a service manual? I don't see one on bitsavers.... Jay From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Jul 26 19:40:30 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:40:30 -0400 Subject: Release Software to the Public Domain? In-Reply-To: <000801c5922b$e3950390$c901a8c0@flexpc> References: <000801c5922b$e3950390$c901a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <42E6D7FE.nailH6Y11S6F7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > stating that anything he wrote is now in the public domain. > Question: what kind of document is available to do this? Antonio replied: > I'm sure GNU have one that they ask you to sign when you > turn over code to them. No, they don't. The GNU license isn't public domain, and public domain isn't the GNU license. I think the GNU license is a good thing overall, and I think public domain is pretty good too, but they aren't the same. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Jul 26 19:44:23 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:44:23 -0400 Subject: Release Software to the Public Domain? In-Reply-To: <42E6AE5B.F4AD7ED3@rain.org> References: <42E6AE5B.F4AD7ED3@rain.org> Message-ID: <42E6D8E7.nailH8U1OT4HU@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Marvin wrote: > stating that anything he wrote is now in the public domain. > Question: what kind of document is available to do this? There was a standard DECUS release form which software submitters signed, that said they were putting it in the public domain. Problem was, sometimes they signed this form when somebody other than them owned the software. Kinda made life complicated after that, they also added even more boilerplate about how the sumbitter/ signer really did author all the code and nobody else has rights. Even then there were some battles. Will try to dig up the boilerplate. It's probably on the DECUS site. Tim. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 19:57:11 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:57:11 +0100 Subject: Terminal emulators - rgb values for amber, green? In-Reply-To: <50856.68.155.19.40.1122411203.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> References: <200507251740040922.0700885D@192.168.42.129> <1e1fc3e905072521391d6aaf78@mail.gmail.com> <00b001c5919e$9e9348c0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <1e1fc3e9050726133079bb3f87@mail.gmail.com> <50856.68.155.19.40.1122411203.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> Message-ID: On 7/26/05, Jeff Davis wrote: > I was just setting up Tera Term Pro on my windows box (talk about overkill - > 1.4Ghz and 768MB to run an ascii terminal!) and was configuring the colors, > and realized I always fiddle around with the RGB values until they look right. > I always create one config for amber on black, and another for green on black > (I'm moody and sometimes use one, sometimes another). > > Are there "standard" RGB values for Amber and Green monochrome monitors, or > did each manufacturer make them different? > > What color schemes do you use? How about terminal emulators? I've set every terminal emulator I've used since about 1999 to amber-on-black. Current setup here is using an amber of 255,129,0. No idea about standards, or green, but here's one data point for you... Ed. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jul 26 20:05:33 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:05:33 -0400 Subject: cctalk archive search? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:47:04 EDT." <200507262347.j6QNl44B002744@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200507270105.j6R15Xqr006943@mwave.heeltoe.com> is the cctalk archive search broken? I searched for "tiff" and "scsi" and got no hits (using any or all). is it just me ? :-) -brad From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jul 26 20:12:51 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:12:51 -0700 Subject: device programmer recommendations? In-Reply-To: References: <0507261858.AA05845@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200507261812510324.0C44ECF7@192.168.42.129> Hi, gang, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 26-Jul-05 at 14:11 Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 7/26/05, Michael Sokolov wrote: >> Bruce Lane wrote: >> >> > I almost forgot to mention... All the Data I/O programmers I mentioned >> > in my last note have a distinct advantage over many others: They will >> > work with nothing more than a 'dumb' ASCII terminal attached to their >> > serial port for control. >> >> But how would you then get the image to be programmed into the box? Does >> it support something like XMODEM/YMODEM/ZMODEM/Kermit on the terminal >> port, or is an ASCII terminal not really sufficient, i.e., maybe they >> can only use a terminal to control mass duplication, but initialing image >> loading still requires a Losedows box? Not at all. Data I/O made a nice, free DOS terminal emulator utility called 'HiTerm' available. It contains a command set which allows you to transfer files between the programmer and the host computer, subject to the 8.3 naming pattern limitation inherent to DOS. >I'd love to know what a 29B wants in terms of logic device programming >input, and what external tools I'd need to go from either a PLD file >or a JEDEC file. If the 29B takes unaltered JEDEC files, that'd be >great. JEDEC is indeed one of the recognized Data I/O formats (#91, if I'm not mistaken). However, in order to read or program PLDs, your 29B must have a LogicPak adapter plugged into it, and the appropriate device adapter plugged into the LogicPak. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 20:24:25 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:24:25 -0500 Subject: cctalk archive search? In-Reply-To: <200507270105.j6R15Xqr006943@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200507262347.j6QNl44B002744@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200507270105.j6R15Xqr006943@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 7/26/05, Brad Parker wrote: > > is the cctalk archive search broken? > > I searched for "tiff" and "scsi" and got no hits (using any or all). > > is it just me ? :-) Case sensitive? -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jul 26 20:43:57 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:43:57 -0500 Subject: device programmer recommendations? In-Reply-To: <0507262308.AA06424@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0507262308.AA06424@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200507262043.57395.pat@computer-refuge.org> Michael Sokolov declared on Tuesday 26 July 2005 06:08 pm: > Jay West wrote: > > The other other way - hook > > up a computer and send the image to the ram in the 29B. The protocol > > is not difficult at all. It's not Xmodem, but... easy nontheless. > > But is it documented? Probably. > Can I write the necessary software myself? Can you write a C program or sh/ksh/csh script? > As > you know I run my own operating system that no one else in the > Universe uses and I cannot run any software not written from scratch > by me. You mean you don't run a 4.3BSD derivative? > Is the interface EIA-232? Yes. > Oh, and > can it work with baud rates of 38400 or lower? Why wouldn't it be able to? > I can't use higher > baud rates because they are not standard in the Classic (non-pee sea) > world. Huh? Are you unable to design and assemble something as simple as a RS-232 interface? ;) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 26 20:46:00 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:46:00 -0400 Subject: device programmer recommendations? In-Reply-To: <0507262308.AA06424@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050726214600.007fcdb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:08 PM 7/26/05 +0000, you wrote: >Jay West wrote: > >> The other other way - hook >> up a computer and send the image to the ram in the 29B. The protocol is not >> difficult at all. It's not Xmodem, but... easy nontheless. > >But is it documented? Yes, It's all detailed in the manual. > Can I write the necessary software myself? I don't know. Can you? As you >know I run my own operating system that no one else in the Universe uses >and I cannot run any software not written from scratch by me. > >Is the interface EIA-232? Yes. It's the only interface that's Classic enough, >standard enough and universal enough for me to use. Oh, and can it work >with baud rates of 38400 or lower? Yes. I can't use higher baud rates because >they are not standard in the Classic (non-pee sea) world. > >MS > From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jul 26 20:50:41 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:50:41 -0400 Subject: cctalk archive search? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 26 Jul 2005 20:24:25 CDT." Message-ID: <200507270150.j6R1of0e008716@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 7/26/05, Brad Parker wrote: >> >> is the cctalk archive search broken? >> >> I searched for "tiff" and "scsi" and got no hits (using any or all). >> >> is it just me ? :-) > >Case sensitive? I tried cctech and it found things. cctalk did not. -brad From tradde at excite.com Tue Jul 26 20:51:07 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: cctalk archive search? Message-ID: <20050727015107.CD2BBB718@xprdmailfe18.nwk.excite.com> --- On Tue 07/26, Brad Parker < brad at heeltoe.com > wrote: From: Brad Parker [mailto: brad at heeltoe.com] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:05:33 -0400 Subject: cctalk archive search?
is the cctalk archive search broken?

I searched for "tiff" and "scsi" and got no hits (using any or all).

is it just me ? :-)

-brad
Seems to work Ok from "www.classiccmp.org", but not from the page listing the archives. I noticed this too. Tim R. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 26 21:11:27 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:11:27 -0400 Subject: HP 9121 9122 drives In-Reply-To: <001301c5923d$907cde50$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050726221127.0089ab80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have docs for them but they're USELESS! They spend 5 pages telling you how to plug them in, 5 more telling you how to put a disk in them, 5 more warning about electrical shock hazard, ..... Well you get the idea! They have some specs but other than that they're useless. I have the service manual for the drive used in the 9121 but that's all. Joe At 06:55 PM 7/26/05 -0500, you wrote: >Anyone have docs & schematics for these? Dare I ask a service manual? I >don't see one on bitsavers.... > >Jay > > From mbg at TheWorld.com Tue Jul 26 21:26:26 2005 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8s and -10s References: Message-ID: <200507270226.WAA1303158@shell.TheWorld.com> I'm really behind on my mail, so someone may have already answered this... >not later than 1975 or so (RSTS/E V5B). And RT11 development probably >was hosted on RSTS at some point. (So was OS-8 support, on an 11/60, RT-11 development was hosted on a RSTS machine back when I joined the group in 1977. The host name was 'TS1' and was located in a lab on ML5-5. We later moved over to an RSX-based machine, named DAEMON. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cswiger at widomaker.com Tue Jul 26 21:38:18 2005 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (Chuck Swiger) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:38:18 -0400 Subject: Diode 1N 540 905 Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20050726222317.026aa810@wilma.widomaker.com> Esteemed Electronics Experts: This may be on topic - it's for an old piece of test equipment with an NEC V40, an Analogic 2030 function generator. Anyway it's blowing fuses - traced it to a shorted diode in a power supply, marked (Motorola Symbol) ZP 1N 540 905 Don't think it's a 1N540 - top hat silicon - this one just looks like a fat 1N4007 cylinder. Not a 1N5409. 1N540905 doesn't exist in google-world. ---(==(--- Any tips, actually just want ratings for replacement TIA --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 26 22:05:49 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:05:49 -0500 Subject: vcf midwest stuff References: <006201c591f5$d2baf510$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200507261325.35233.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <005f01c59258$20848420$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Pat wrote.... > I'd suggest Saturday night after the VCF. Ok, I'll get into west lafayette friday evening, and I'll leave sunday morning. My only suggestion as to where we go to eat/drink saturday after vcf.... someplace quiet enough so we can talk and share stories and not have to shout over loud music :) My 2 millidollars worth Jay From news at computercollector.com Tue Jul 26 22:20:47 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:20:47 -0400 Subject: Sighting in the movies... Message-ID: <200507270325.j6R3Pp47035028@keith.ezwind.net> I was just flipping channels and found the original "Airplane!" movie... they showed a scene in the tower where two of the traffic controllers were playing Atari 2600 Basketball on the RADAR scope. Good stuff! ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 770 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Jul 26 22:25:31 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:25:31 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 Message-ID: <42E6FEAB.8070505@compsys.to> I have been having some fun with Prime Numbers using FORTRAN 77 under RT-11 on a PDP-11. Since I rapidly run out of the capacity of 32 bit numbers (INTEGER * 4 NUMBER), I have started to use 64 bit values (REAL * 8 NUMBER) but the conversion routines leave a lot to be desired on output. When using F32.0, I can count on only about 15 digits of accuracy even though the values are often accurate to an exact integer. If needed, I can write my own conversion routines, but I though I might inquire if anyone knows of any libraries which are exact or better still, multi-precision libraries which can handle up to 128 bit integers? Can anyone Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 22:56:08 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:56:08 +0800 Subject: FOX-1 (was A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing ) In-Reply-To: <004401c591f4$d57b4300$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <2c11fb3b67c897f860c482d862746830@bitsavers.org> <1122368820.13616.1.camel@weka.localdomain> <004401c591f4$d57b4300$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: Yeah! The best was the slogan: "FOX-1 The Control System of the 70s" !!! It's pretty awesome alright. Any remaining instances of this machine type must definitely be saved. On 7/26/05, Jay West wrote: > I looked at the brochure on the FOX-1 that Al put up.... that's a gorgeous > machine. Love the consoles too, awesome retroness :> > > Jay > > From allain at panix.com Tue Jul 26 23:01:24 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 00:01:24 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 References: <42E6FEAB.8070505@compsys.to> Message-ID: <00fb01c5925f$db8c98a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > multi-precision libraries which can handle up to 128 bit integers? I wanted to get thousands of digits of Pi once and implemented it using up to 1500 bit precision integers (Yeah Rite). For this simple program I just used arrays of integers and kept shifting carry bits to the left or right, depending on whether I was dividing or multiplying. I got about 500 digits of Pi at the time (1976). Today we could probably get something like 5000 digits in 5 seconds on a PC. I encourage you to try this yourself. For example an array of (1,0,0,0) divided by 3 would become (0,3,3,3), minding carries. An array of (0,0,0,5) times 6 would be (0,0,3,0). Using these two simple tools I was able to get hundreds of digits of Pi in 2 pages of code. John A. Make magazine. Issue 3 on newstands now. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Tue Jul 26 23:37:36 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:37:36 -0700 Subject: device programmer recommendations? References: <200507270241.j6R2fb3t027449@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000301c59264$ef82f890$0300a8c0@downstairs2> > From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) > But is it documented? Can I write the necessary software myself? As you > know I run my own operating system that no one else in the Universe uses > and I cannot run any software not written from scratch by me. > > Is the interface EIA-232? It's the only interface that's Classic enough, > standard enough and universal enough for me to use. Oh, and can it work > with baud rates of 38400 or lower? I can't use higher baud rates because > they are not standard in the Classic (non-pee sea) world. > > MS The Data I/O Computer Remote Control Standard (CRC) is well documented and pre-dates the PC by several years. The programmer manuals have the basic information. I have 14 page Application Note (circa 1985) that gives all the details on how to write a driver program. You could send the commands from a terminal emulation program then send the data. The baud rate limit on older Data I/O programmers is 19.2k. (some are limited to 9600). It goes as low as 110 baud so you can use an ASR33 with paper tape. The interface is RS-232 with hardware handshake (flow control). The original PROMlink was a DOS program that used this Computer Remote Control Standard to control the programmers. I worked at Data I/O and my group wrote the original PROMlink. I will try to scan this soon, I can mail a paper copy now. Michael Holley From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Tue Jul 26 23:50:45 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:50:45 -0700 Subject: device programmer recommendations? References: <200507270241.j6R2fb3t027449@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000601c59266$c6126160$0300a8c0@downstairs2> > Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 17:59:05 -0400 > From: "Joe R." > Subject: Re: device programmer recommendations? > IIRC if you have the PALASM plug-in for the Logic Pak then you can type > in logic equations and it will compile them into the appropriate fuse map > in (IIRC) JEDEC format. I bought all the necessary plug-ins and manuals > for > a project a couple of years ago but the project got scratched and I've > never used the stuff so I'm operating from memory here. > > I have all the manuals for the 29B, Logic Pak, PALASM plug-in and > several of the PAL adapters, you're welcome to borrow them and scan them > if > they're not already posted somewhere. > > Joe I wrote the PALASM program in the Data I/O Logic Pak (along with Garrett Barrera). It is 16K of 6800 assembly language. If you do a dump on the EPROMs you will find our names. Michael Holley From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Jul 27 01:06:51 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:06:51 -0500 Subject: Terminal emulators - rgb values for amber, green? In-Reply-To: <1122411710.13599.125.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200507251740040922.0700885D@192.168.42.129> <1e1fc3e905072521391d6aaf78@mail.gmail.com> <00b001c5919e$9e9348c0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <1e1fc3e9050726133079bb3f87@mail.gmail.com> <50856.68.155.19.40.1122411203.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> <1122411710.13599.125.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42E7247B.7010806@pacbell.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 16:53 -0400, Jeff Davis wrote: > >>I was just setting up Tera Term Pro on my windows box (talk about overkill - >>1.4Ghz and 768MB to run an ascii terminal!) > > > with that sort of speed you could probably emulate the CRT of the > original terminal itself, with all the gaps between lines and the light > fall-off around each pixel :-) Jules, It is funny you should mention it. My recently released Wang 2200 emulator does exactly that when you configure it to use the true bitmap font (vs. a system native font) for rendering the display. Luckily the active part of the character cell is surrounded by enough inactive padding pixels that I can carry out the blurring convolution and store it in the character bit map and then just blit these preconvolved character images to the display. This is less than perfect in two ways: first, this is only true for filter kernels of 3x3 or less. Second, the cursor underbar is as wide as the character cell (not just the active part) so they should affect adjacent character cells. I just ignore that little problem. The emulator also has realtime brightness and contrast controls. I thought about adding a focus knob as well, which would modify the filter kernel, but I decided to keep things simple for now. If you want to see what it looks like (emulated vs real), click these links (4KB and 93KB respectively): http://home.pacbell.net/frustum/wang_emuscreen.gif http://home.pacbell.net/frustum/wang_realscreen.jpg Look at the cursor on the emulated screen and you will see that it isn't blurred. It could be fixed without any noticable speed hit, but it would take time to code it up and I have more significant things I'd rather work on. Finally, earlier in development when I had added the bit accurate font map, it was painful to look at the screen. The blur really made it much easier to read. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 27 01:18:09 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:18:09 +0100 Subject: Release Software to the Public Domain? In-Reply-To: <42E6D7FE.nailH6Y11S6F7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <001001c59272$f71eb900$c901a8c0@flexpc> >No, they don't. The GNU license isn't public domain, I know that the GNU stuff is hardly public domain, but I thought the document must say something that states "I, my-name, being of sound mind and-other-legal stuff do hereby legal-words-for-hand-over all-those-legal-words for-the-full-set-of-rights to whoever", which at least gives you a starting point for how to work out what you want to hand over. I presume that there's a whole bunch of different rights and what nots that the executor wants to give up without incurring any liabilities etc. Antonio From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Jul 27 01:47:23 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 05 06:47:23 GMT Subject: device programmer recommendations? Message-ID: <0507270647.AA07202@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Can you write a C program or sh/ksh/csh script? I can given a specification of the protocol that said program needs to speak. > > As > > you know I run my own operating system that no one else in the > > Universe uses and I cannot run any software not written from scratch > > by me. > > You mean you don't run a 4.3BSD derivative? It is not a 4.3BSD derivative, it is actual 4.3BSD (the -Quasijarus suffix is irrelevant here), and since I am the last person in the world running it, I count it as running my own OS that no one else uses. And since there is not any software out there today that will compile or run on it except that written by me, I use the rule of thumb that I need to write all software I need myself from scratch. > > Oh, and > > can it work with baud rates of 38400 or lower? > > Why wouldn't it be able to? Unfortunately there is a lot of modern pee sea-minded RS-232 equipment that cannot be configured to baud rates slower than 115200 or 57600. > Huh? Are you unable to design and assemble something as simple as a > RS-232 interface? ;) Design and build a new RS-232 interface option for my MicroVAXen? Lacking the necessary special Q-bus driver and receiver ICs. MS From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Jul 27 01:53:56 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 05 06:53:56 GMT Subject: device programmer recommendations? Message-ID: <0507270653.AA07220@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Michael Holley wrote: > The interface is RS-232 with hardware handshake (flow control). Do you have to use the hardware flow control or can you do without it? None of my systems are capable of it since they've been designed with the belief (which I hold too) that RTS and CTS should not abused for flow control, as that was not their original intended purpose. Can one just send the data slow enough or use software flow control? MS From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Jul 27 02:49:36 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:49:36 +0100 Subject: Terminal emulators - rgb values for amber, green? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 27 Jul 2005 01:57:11 BST." Message-ID: <200507270749.IAA29078@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ed said: > On 7/26/05, Jeff Davis wrote: > > I was just setting up Tera Term Pro on my windows box (talk about overkill - > > 1.4Ghz and 768MB to run an ascii terminal!) and was configuring the colors, > > and realized I always fiddle around with the RGB values until they look right. > > I always create one config for amber on black, and another for green on black > > (I'm moody and sometimes use one, sometimes another). > > > > Are there "standard" RGB values for Amber and Green monochrome monitors, or > > did each manufacturer make them different? > > > > What color schemes do you use? How about terminal emulators? > > I've set every terminal emulator I've used since about 1999 to > amber-on-black. Current setup here is using an amber of 255,129,0. > > No idea about standards, or green, but here's one data point for you... I use 144,238,144 for green, matches my Qume terminal quite well, on my monitor at least. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From James at jdfogg.com Wed Jul 27 04:07:40 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 05:07:40 -0400 Subject: Diode 1N 540 905 Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045C3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Don't think it's a 1N540 - top hat silicon - this one just > looks like a fat 1N4007 cylinder. Not a 1N5409. 1N540905 > doesn't exist in > google-world. ---(==(--- Assuming it's not a Zener (in the regulator circuit) and is a simple diode (probably in a bridge rectifier circuit?) then there shouldn't be anything special about the diode other than it's current rating. I've always operated on the principle that for diodes, current rating is relative to physical size. From technobug at comcast.net Wed Jul 27 04:53:26 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 02:53:26 -0700 Subject: Diode 1N 540 905 In-Reply-To: <200507270241.j6R2fb3r027449@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507270241.j6R2fb3r027449@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:38:18 -0400 Chuck Swiger wrote: [...] > Anyway it's blowing fuses - traced it to a shorted diode in a power > supply, marked > > (Motorola Symbol) > ZP > 1N > 540 > 905 > > > Don't think it's a 1N540 - top hat silicon - this one just looks > like a > fat 1N4007 cylinder. Not a 1N5409. 1N540905 doesn't exist in > google-world. ---(==(--- > > Any tips, actually just want ratings for replacement TIA > > --Chuck You might want to look at ONSemi.com (ex Motorola). Entering 1N540 gets a listing for 1N540x. The data sheet shows a diode as described with the markings similar to that above, except that you seem to be missing a trailing character on each of the numeric lines. This is a series of 3 amp diodes with various voltage ratings. If you can't make out the training number, either go for the highest rating or measure the open circuit voltage that feeds the diode. Hope this helps... CRC From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 27 05:29:30 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:29:30 +0000 Subject: Terminal emulators - rgb values for amber, green? In-Reply-To: <42E7247B.7010806@pacbell.net> References: <200507251740040922.0700885D@192.168.42.129> <1e1fc3e905072521391d6aaf78@mail.gmail.com> <00b001c5919e$9e9348c0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <1e1fc3e9050726133079bb3f87@mail.gmail.com> <50856.68.155.19.40.1122411203.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> <1122411710.13599.125.camel@weka.localdomain> <42E7247B.7010806@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <1122460170.15663.11.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 01:06 -0500, Jim Battle wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 16:53 -0400, Jeff Davis wrote: > > > >>I was just setting up Tera Term Pro on my windows box (talk about overkill - > >>1.4Ghz and 768MB to run an ascii terminal!) > > > > > > with that sort of speed you could probably emulate the CRT of the > > original terminal itself, with all the gaps between lines and the light > > fall-off around each pixel :-) > > Jules, > > It is funny you should mention it. My recently released Wang 2200 emulator does > exactly that when you configure it to use the true bitmap font (vs. a system > native font) for rendering the display. I'm glad someone's worrying about these things :) It's the one step that emulators don't tend to do; they might emulate the machine really well, but the display tends to be far too crisp to look like the original. Of course it's probabaly only in recent years that modern hardware's been fast enough to do this kind of thing! The screenshot looks nice. > The emulator also has realtime brightness and contrast controls. If you whack the brightness right up do you get to see retrace lines? ;-) cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jul 27 07:54:47 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:54:47 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 References: <42E6FEAB.8070505@compsys.to> Message-ID: <17127.33815.474000.806769@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jerome" == Jerome H Fine writes: Jerome> I have been having some fun with Prime Numbers using FORTRAN Jerome> 77 under RT-11 on a PDP-11. Since I rapidly run out of the Jerome> capacity of 32 bit numbers (INTEGER * 4 NUMBER), I have Jerome> started to use 64 bit values (REAL * 8 NUMBER) but the Jerome> conversion routines leave a lot to be desired on output. Jerome> When using F32.0, I can count on only about 15 digits of Jerome> accuracy even though the values are often accurate to an Jerome> exact integer. Of course. Just because it's exactly representable as an integer doesn't mean it's exactly representable as a 64 bit float. Those have a 56 bit mantissa, which means you have 2^56 bits of resolution, which translates to roughly 16 digits. (The VAX architecture handbook mentions that explicitly, by the way.) Jerome> If needed, I can write my own conversion routines, but I Jerome> though I might inquire if anyone knows of any libraries which Jerome> are exact or better still, multi-precision libraries which Jerome> can handle up to 128 bit integers? If you want exact arithmetic, run, don't walk, away from floating point numbers. Use only integers. There the GNU MP library, and others like it. Long integer arithmetic libraries are commonly found in crypto library packages. Come to think of it, you'll find functions that are helpful in stuff relating to prime numbers -- since prime numbers also figure prominently in cryptography. So you could use MP (which is in C) directly, given a suitable compiler. Or you could port it to Fortran... paul From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Jul 27 07:47:08 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:47:08 -0400 (edt) Subject: Sighting in the movies... In-Reply-To: <200507270325.j6R3Pp47035028@keith.ezwind.net> from "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" at Jul 26, 05 11:20:47 pm Message-ID: <200507271247.IAA32408@wordstock.com> And thusly 'Computer Collector Newsletter' spake: > > I was just flipping channels and found the original "Airplane!" movie... > they showed a scene in the tower where two of the traffic controllers were > playing Atari 2600 Basketball on the RADAR scope. > > Good stuff! > Very **funny** movie. It came out in 1980 so the 2600 would have been very big at the time. Cheers, Bryan From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 27 09:30:17 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sighting in the movies... In-Reply-To: <200507271247.IAA32408@wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Jul 27, 5 08:47:08 am" Message-ID: <200507271430.HAA11934@floodgap.com> > > I was just flipping channels and found the original "Airplane!" movie... > > they showed a scene in the tower where two of the traffic controllers were > > playing Atari 2600 Basketball on the RADAR scope. > Very **funny** movie. It came out in 1980 so the 2600 would have been > very big at the time. Looks like I picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The steady state of disks is full. -- Ken Thompson ------------------------- From news at computercollector.com Wed Jul 27 09:38:21 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:38:21 -0400 Subject: Sighting in the movies... In-Reply-To: <200507271247.IAA32408@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200507271444.j6REi9IJ040746@keith.ezwind.net> One of my all-time favorites, I just hadn't noticed that scene before. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Pope Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 8:47 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Sighting in the movies... And thusly 'Computer Collector Newsletter' spake: > > I was just flipping channels and found the original "Airplane!" movie... > they showed a scene in the tower where two of the traffic controllers > were playing Atari 2600 Basketball on the RADAR scope. > > Good stuff! > Very **funny** movie. It came out in 1980 so the 2600 would have been very big at the time. Cheers, Bryan From charlesmorris at direcway.com Wed Jul 27 10:08:18 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris at direcway.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:08:18 -0400 Subject: "New" RL02 on the way - how to power up? Message-ID: <1de889f1de5db9.1de5db91de889f@direcway.com> I have just purchased an RL02 and while waiting for it to arrive, I am wondering what to do for cleaning and lubrication before power-up. I don't know how long it's been sitting (indoors). I have downloaded the manual from bitsavers. I know there has been some discussion on this list recently but I think that was on the care and feeding of RK05's... Also, the seller tells me he can't get the pack out: >When I had the disk pack cover off, the release handle on the pack did >not release the disks and I did not want to force it. Does the drive >need to be powered on and is there a way to remove them without powering >it on? He does know about the shipping screws and will install them before Fedexing. So, what should I do first? thanks for any assistance. Charles From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 27 10:21:46 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:21:46 +0000 Subject: Sighting in the movies... In-Reply-To: <200507271430.HAA11934@floodgap.com> References: <200507271430.HAA11934@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1122477706.15644.104.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 07:30 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > I was just flipping channels and found the original "Airplane!" movie... > > > they showed a scene in the tower where two of the traffic controllers were > > > playing Atari 2600 Basketball on the RADAR scope. > > > Very **funny** movie. It came out in 1980 so the 2600 would have been > > very big at the time. > > Looks like I picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue. Was that the one where one of the aircrew turned to jelly? :-) Darn, I haven't seen that movie in years. From menadeau at comcast.net Wed Jul 27 10:25:47 2005 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:25:47 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 available References: <200507261815.j6QIFBL21075@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <00cf01c592bf$78cbd400$6401a8c0@Mike> If anyone in the Norfolk, VA, area is interested in obtaining a TRS-80 Model 4 in "good condition," please contact the owner at Glymaso at aol.com. I don't know this person, and I don't know if or how much money he expects for it. From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Jul 27 10:26:25 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:26:25 -0500 Subject: looking for an AMP connector In-Reply-To: <006201c591f5$d2baf510$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050727102123.022ee810@mail.ubanproductions.com> Hello, A friend of mine has designed a replacement climate control circuit for his early '80s Jaguar XJS. (This might almost put this on topic.) He plans on making kits available at near cost prices, and would like to find a replacement connector. Does anyone have an old AMP catalog that might show something like the one in these pictures? A series name or similar part number would be a good start: http://www.backglass.org/duncan/jag/cc/connectors.html --tnx --tom From GOOI at oce.nl Wed Jul 27 10:28:09 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:28:09 +0200 Subject: "New" RL02 on the way - how to power up? Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1DC4@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Charles, VERY IMPORTANT: get the disk pack out of the drive before shipping. You must lock the heads! If the cover is closed, there are 2 ways to open it. 1) apply power. The FAULT light will go on, but what is more important is that the cover latch is unlocked. 2) without power, open the small "cover" at the right side. Now you have mechanical access to the latch. When you have removed the pack, look at the opening in the middle at the rear end (inside the cartridge space). You will see a small square plate that is held by one screw. Turn the screw some 4-5 times. Now you can rotate the square plate 90 degrees. It will cover the opening from which the heads come out. Tighten the screw. Now the heads are locked, and you are safe to ship the drive. Not sure if it is necessary to lock the spindle ... maybe others can shed a light on this issue? Cleaning becomes an issue when you have the drive :~) See www.pdp-11.nl (peripheral -> disk -> RL01/RL02"). gd luck, - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of charlesmorris at direcway.com Sent: woensdag 27 juli 2005 17:08 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: "New" RL02 on the way - how to power up? I have just purchased an RL02 and while waiting for it to arrive, I am wondering what to do for cleaning and lubrication before power-up. I don't know how long it's been sitting (indoors). I have downloaded the manual from bitsavers. I know there has been some discussion on this list recently but I think that was on the care and feeding of RK05's... Also, the seller tells me he can't get the pack out: >When I had the disk pack cover off, the release handle on the pack did >not release the disks and I did not want to force it. Does the drive >need to be powered on and is there a way to remove them without powering >it on? He does know about the shipping screws and will install them before Fedexing. So, what should I do first? thanks for any assistance. Charles From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jul 27 10:29:20 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:29:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sighting in the movies... In-Reply-To: <1122477706.15644.104.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200507271430.HAA11934@floodgap.com> <1122477706.15644.104.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <2964.207.237.217.134.1122478160.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Very **funny** movie. It came out in 1980 so the 2600 would have been >> > very big at the time. >> >> Looks like I picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue. > > Was that the one where one of the aircrew turned to jelly? :-) Airplane II that one I think. Those 2 are my most favourite films of all time; I don't think there's many films since then have had me crying with laughter so hard it hurts. ObClassiccmp: the Rockford Files is on one of the several hundred TV channels we have here and there's not a computer in sight :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jul 27 10:33:03 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:33:03 -0400 Subject: "New" RL02 on the way - how to power up? Message-ID: <0IKA008V9LU0EGC7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: "New" RL02 on the way - how to power up? > From: charlesmorris at direcway.com > Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:08:18 -0400 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >I have just purchased an RL02 and while waiting for it to arrive, I am wondering what to do for cleaning and lubrication before power-up. I don't know how long it's been sitting (indoors). I have downloaded the manual from bitsavers. I know there has been some discussion on this list recently but I think that was on the care and feeding of RK05's... > >Also, the seller tells me he can't get the pack out: Machine has to be powered up and allows to cycle to stop before the door lock will realease. > >>When I had the disk pack cover off, the release handle on the pack did >>not release the disks and I did not want to force it. Does the drive >>need to be powered on and is there a way to remove them without powering >>it on? > >He does know about the shipping screws and will install them before Fedexing. ?!? One of the shipping locks requires the pack to be removed. The early RL02s used a plate that was screwed in over the head to lock them and the later ones had a spring loaded lock that was active anythimg the pack was removed. So head lock can only occur with the pack out no matter what. This should be in the user manual. Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 27 10:42:54 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:42:54 +0000 Subject: looking for an AMP connector In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050727102123.022ee810@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050727102123.022ee810@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <1122478974.15644.108.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 10:26 -0500, Tom Uban wrote: > Hello, > > A friend of mine has designed a replacement climate control circuit for > his early '80s Jaguar XJS. (This might almost put this on topic.) He plans > on making kits available at near cost prices, and would like to find a > replacement connector. Does anyone have an old AMP catalog that might > show something like the one in these pictures? A series name or similar > part number would be a good start: > > http://www.backglass.org/duncan/jag/cc/connectors.html Isn't that sort of thing in the service manual for the car? (Which a lot of classic Jag owners must have). I know there must be a Jag part number for it too, but 'proper' manuals for cars of that period tended to list this sort of info too. cheers Jules From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Jul 27 10:31:33 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:31:33 -0400 (edt) Subject: Sighting in the movies... In-Reply-To: <2964.207.237.217.134.1122478160.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> from "Witchy" at Jul 27, 05 04:29:20 pm Message-ID: <200507271531.LAA31834@wordstock.com> And thusly Witchy spake: > > > Very **funny** movie. It came out in 1980 so the 2600 would have been > >> > very big at the time. > >> > >> Looks like I picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue. > > > > Was that the one where one of the aircrew turned to jelly? :-) > > Airplane II that one I think. Those 2 are my most favourite films of all > time; I don't think there's many films since then have had me crying with > laughter so hard it hurts. > There was also the "Please don't fall apart on me!!" And he does. Literally. Cheers, Bryan P.S. And the rude autopilot. Who in a later scene was smoking a cigarette. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jul 27 11:21:21 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:21:21 -0500 Subject: "New" RL02 on the way - how to power up? In-Reply-To: <1de889f1de5db9.1de5db91de889f@direcway.com> References: <1de889f1de5db9.1de5db91de889f@direcway.com> Message-ID: <200507271121.21694.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 27 July 2005 10:08, charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: > Also, the seller tells me he can't get the pack out: > >When I had the disk pack cover off, the release handle on the pack > > did not release the disks and I did not want to force it. Does the > > drive need to be powered on and is there a way to remove them > > without powering it on? The pack is held onto the spindle with a fairly strong magnet. As long as the heads aren't extended into the pack (which would be very bad anyhow), he should be able to just pull harder and get the pack to release. When I first removed an RL02 pack, it required more force than I was expecting. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 11:27:56 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:27:56 -0500 Subject: "New" RL02 on the way - how to power up? In-Reply-To: <200507271121.21694.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <1de889f1de5db9.1de5db91de889f@direcway.com> <200507271121.21694.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 7/27/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > The pack is held onto the spindle with a fairly strong magnet. As long > as the heads aren't extended into the pack (which would be very bad > anyhow), he should be able to just pull harder and get the pack to > release. When I first removed an RL02 pack, it required more force > than I was expecting. Yes, but it's also possible that the pack thumb latch is sloppy or broken. I have seen that. With experience, you can tell that the release mechanism has or has not engaged and try another cycle of the latch and handle. For someone who is not used to it, it may or may not be easy to tell on a dodgy pack. This is presuming that they know how to use the handle in the first place, a "skill" that I wouldn't assume of someone who has never seen an RL02 drive before (no idea if the seller is an old user selling stuff, or someone who has zero experience with 1980s DEC hardware) -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 13:31:21 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:31:21 +0100 Subject: DR DOS 5.0 In-Reply-To: <20050724185618.77581.qmail@web26402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050724185618.77581.qmail@web26402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af05072711315001db33@mail.gmail.com> On 7/24/05, Diego Rodriguez wrote: > Anybody knows something about its history ?? > I have installation disks with files dated 6/1990 and also a boot disk > with some files dated in 2/1991, I know that several bug fixing > versions exist, but Which is the last ?? > > I remembered it when I was reading all that Windows Vista (LongHorn) > stuff. Seems that M$ is using 'vaporware' again to distract attention > from Intel Mac OS X much like they did with MS-DOS 5.0 and DR DOS 5.0. A bit, but not much about internal versions and so on. I've contributed a fair bit to the Wikipedia article on it - that might be a good place to look and discuss it. -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 27 13:43:37 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:43:37 +0100 Subject: Cleaning out storage room FREE ITEMS In-Reply-To: <42E6A9E1.90007@internet1.net> References: <42E6A9E1.90007@internet1.net> Message-ID: <575131af050727114379420817@mail.gmail.com> On 7/26/05, C Fernandez wrote: > Hi All, > > Doing a little sorting. The following items are free , plus the cost of > shipping rounded to the next dollar. I'm in southwest Michigan. > -WordPerfect 6.0 for DOS (in box, ok condition) I'd really like this, but I'm in the UK and can't really afford shipping on it. If there's any chance of it going in with any other stuff coming this way, or going cheaply via surface mail, though... -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Jul 27 13:44:03 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:44:03 -0500 Subject: vcf midwest stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507271853.j6RIrN0J043718@keith.ezwind.net> I'll be ther to laugh at it, does that count? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 6:17 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: vcf midwest stuff On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > Rumor has it that at VCF East last year, Hans Franke ordered TWO hamburger > > platters for his entr?e. > > I heard that rumor as well. I also heard a rumor that Mr. Franke was put > to shame by another classiccmp member at the main dinner. Since I won't be there to nanny Hans, will someone please chide him when he overeats and stuffs his face with unhealthy comestibles? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jul 27 14:49:11 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:49:11 -0400 Subject: Cleaning out storage room FREE ITEMS In-Reply-To: <575131af050727114379420817@mail.gmail.com> References: <42E6A9E1.90007@internet1.net> <42E6A9E1.90007@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050727154911.0079dad0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Liam, Hint: Software and manuals can be shipped CHEAP using USPS bookrate. Joe At 07:43 PM 7/27/05 +0100, you wrote: >On 7/26/05, C Fernandez wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> Doing a little sorting. The following items are free , plus the cost of >> shipping rounded to the next dollar. I'm in southwest Michigan. > >> -WordPerfect 6.0 for DOS (in box, ok condition) > >I'd really like this, but I'm in the UK and can't really afford >shipping on it. If there's any chance of it going in with any other >stuff coming this way, or going cheaply via surface mail, though... > >-- >Liam Proven >Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com >AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com > > From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jul 27 15:09:28 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:09:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cleaning out storage room FREE ITEMS In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050727154911.0079dad0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > Hint: Software and manuals can be shipped CHEAP using USPS bookrate. Be very careful - USPS is getting VERY strict about the use of Media Rate and Printed Bound Matter Rate. Most people use Media Rate for any printed matter, but by law, any document that shows even a hint of advertising or personal correspondence, even if from a 50 year old catalog from a firm that no longer exists and written by someone now dead, can NOT go Media Rate. Period. No Slack. Printed Bound Matter Rate is OK for advertising items, but remember that if lost (which happens with PBM) it gets discarded without even a try to return the package. I do not recommend it. The USPS is starting to aggressively sample any Parcel (Post, Media, and PMB) packages for compliance. I got this lecture just yesterday from the postguy in the Post Office. He said not to abuse Media Rate, or it will go away. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Wed Jul 27 15:18:17 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:18:17 -0400 Subject: FREE printers - Spring Hill Florida - FREE In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050727154911.0079dad0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <42E6A9E1.90007@internet1.net> <42E6A9E1.90007@internet1.net> <3.0.6.32.20050727154911.0079dad0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050727161147.02b77810@pop-server> I have four printers that were used on the Commodore 64 and will probably work fine on other machines. They are dot matrix printers. They are rather old and I am unable to test them but have been told that they worked the last time they were used. They are FREE for the taking but they must be picked up in Spring Hill Florida. Commodore MPS-801 Printer Commodore MPS-802 Printer (have two of these) Juki 6100 printer From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 27 15:58:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vcf midwest stuff In-Reply-To: <200507271853.j6RIrN0J043718@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jul 2005, Julian Wolfe wrote: > I'll be ther to laugh at it, does that count? That just encourages him :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 27 16:00:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cleaning out storage room FREE ITEMS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > Hint: Software and manuals can be shipped CHEAP using USPS bookrate. > > Be very careful - USPS is getting VERY strict about the use of Media > Rate and Printed Bound Matter Rate. Most people use Media Rate for any > printed matter, but by law, any document that shows even a hint of > advertising or personal correspondence, even if from a 50 year old catalog > from a firm that no longer exists and written by someone now dead, can NOT > go Media Rate. Period. No Slack. Software is included in the Media Rate. > I got this lecture just yesterday from the postguy in the Post Office. He > said not to abuse Media Rate, or it will go away. Not that this is the proper place to discuss this (famous last words) but I don't udnerstand the premise behind that rate anyway. If it costs $X to move item K of weight W from point A to point B, why should it be any different to move item J of weight V instead? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jul 27 16:18:43 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:18:43 -0500 Subject: Cleaning out storage room FREE ITEMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050727161752.05075ed0@mail> At 04:00 PM 7/27/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Not that this is the proper place to discuss this (famous last words) but >I don't understand the premise behind that rate anyway. If it costs $X to >move item K of weight W from point A to point B, why should it be any >different to move item J of weight V instead? USPS rates depend on the number of lobbyists. - John From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jul 27 16:22:51 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:22:51 -0400 Subject: Cleaning out storage room FREE ITEMS References: Message-ID: <17127.64299.52900.392401@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> Not that this is the proper place to discuss this (famous Vintage> last words) but I don't udnerstand the premise behind that Vintage> rate anyway. If it costs $X to move item K of weight W from Vintage> point A to point B, why should it be any different to move Vintage> item J of weight V instead? Politics. Remember that the USPS is a branch of the government, even though it pretends not to be. paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jul 27 16:38:01 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cleaning out storage room FREE ITEMS Message-ID: <200507272138.OAA07930@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Wed, 27 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > >> > Hint: Software and manuals can be shipped CHEAP using USPS bookrate. >> >> Be very careful - USPS is getting VERY strict about the use of Media >> Rate and Printed Bound Matter Rate. Most people use Media Rate for any >> printed matter, but by law, any document that shows even a hint of >> advertising or personal correspondence, even if from a 50 year old catalog >> from a firm that no longer exists and written by someone now dead, can NOT >> go Media Rate. Period. No Slack. > >Software is included in the Media Rate. > ---snip--- Hi It is interesting that even a note attached to a pile of documents can cause it to fail the media rate rule. I have a stack, about 15 lbs, of copies that I wanted to send and I had a note on top that said" Here are the items you requested" or something similar. The postal fellow saw that and was going to reject the media rate based on that. I just removed the note. It is funny that the note contained nothing more than what an invoice would have. I guess rules are rules. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 27 17:08:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:08:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: <200507262347.j6QNl44B002744@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Jul 26, 5 07:47:04 pm Message-ID: > >> You'd need to encode the bits correctly so the data/clock seperator > > > >That's just what I'd not want to do. You can't make any asumptions about > >the clock/data encoding scheme if you want this emulator to be universal > >(after all, a real ST506 doesn't do anything to the pulse stream other than > >record it on the disk, unchanged [1]). > > > >That was the reason for the high (10*, 8* would probably be OK as well) > >sampling rate. Just record the pulses to memory, then play them back. > > Ah, sorry. I didn't get it. You want it to be universal. Of course. Otherwise you're likely to end up with a design that works on standard-ish controllers (like the PC ones, the DEC RQDX's, etc) where you could probably stick a different controller into a backplane slot anyway, but doesn't work on machines like the classic PERQ, where the disk cotnroller is (a) strange and (b) on a large board with the rest of the I/O sysstem, so it can't easily be replaced by soemthing else. > I was thinking you could act like most common controllers and encode > data that was actually on a server, a sort of "nfs server with an st-506 > interface". That's a secondary issue. Once you have something that looks like an ST506 drive to any controller you care to name, and which stores the bitstream in semicondcutor memory, you can then consider a server that loads images from, say, a SCSI drive into that memory. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 27 17:14:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:14:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9121 9122 drives In-Reply-To: <001301c5923d$907cde50$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jul 26, 5 06:55:55 pm Message-ID: > > Anyone have docs & schematics for these? Dare I ask a service manual? I I have the ofifical service data for the 9121, it is useless. The only schematic is for the trivial linear PSU section. One day I'll get round to tracing out schematics for the 9121. I can't do the 9122 as I don't have one. There are schematics for the double-sided drive (used in the 9122, at least the double-denisty version) on the HPCC CD-ROM, in the 9114A or Integral diagrams. What's the problem with your units? Most of these HP controllers follow much the same design with a 68B09 running the show, a little bit of RAM and EPROM, a Western Digital controller chip, 8291 GPIB chip, etc. Actually, most of the problems are mechanical and relate to dried-up grease on the eject mechanism. If you don't catch this in time, the disk holder is not latched correctly when you eject the disk and, on the double-sided units, the upper head is ripped off the gimbal spring. You have been warned! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 27 17:17:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:17:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Terminal emulators - rgb values for amber, green? In-Reply-To: from "listmailgoeshere@gmail.com" at Jul 27, 5 01:57:11 am Message-ID: > > Are there "standard" RGB values for Amber and Green monochrome monitors, or > > did each manufacturer make them different? Msot, if not all, CRT data sheets will include a graph of intensity against wavelength for the phosphor, from which it's possible, at least iheory to deduce the colour. How you relate that to the RGB values is another matter... And finding the data sheet for the CRT in a given terminal may well be non-trivial. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 27 17:23:30 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:23:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9121 9122 drives In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050726221127.0089ab80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jul 26, 5 10:11:27 pm Message-ID: > have some specs but other than that they're useless. I have the service > manual for the drive used in the 9121 but that's all. I have that manaul too (it's entiled something like 'HP 3.5" floppy disc drive service infrormation'). Mine has a section specifically on the 9121, which includes the PSU schematic and a complete parts list for the controller board (but no schematics for the interesting bits). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 27 17:36:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:36:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: "New" RL02 on the way - how to power up? In-Reply-To: <200507271121.21694.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Jul 27, 5 11:21:21 am Message-ID: > > On Wednesday 27 July 2005 10:08, charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: > > Also, the seller tells me he can't get the pack out: > > >When I had the disk pack cover off, the release handle on the pack > > > did not release the disks and I did not want to force it. Does the > > > drive need to be powered on and is there a way to remove them > > > without powering it on? > > The pack is held onto the spindle with a fairly strong magnet. As long > as the heads aren't extended into the pack (which would be very bad > anyhow), he should be able to just pull harder and get the pack to > release. When I first removed an RL02 pack, it required more force > than I was expecting. Don't forget the little slider on the handle. Lifting the handle on its own won't do a darn thing (this is so you can carry a pack by its handle without the cover dropping off). What you do is slide the little slider on the handle along (it will only move one way), and while holding it in that position, lift the handle. That will pull the hub off the magnet and let you remove the pack. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 27 18:24:16 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sighting in the movies... In-Reply-To: <200507271531.LAA31834@wordstock.com> References: <200507271531.LAA31834@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20050727162235.G94273@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 27 Jul 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > > Airplane II that one I think. Those 2 are my most favourite films of all > > time; I don't think there's many films since then have had me crying with > > laughter so hard it hurts. > P.S. And the rude autopilot. Who in a later scene was smoking a cigarette. "rude"??? was the movie heavily censored? All that he needed was a blowjob. From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jul 27 18:55:48 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:55:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cleaning out storage room FREE ITEMS In-Reply-To: <200507272138.OAA07930@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > It is funny that the note contained nothing more than > what an invoice would have. I guess rules are rules. In the past, they would not care, but now that so many people abuse Media Rate, they are being anal about the rules. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jul 27 18:57:47 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pile of board on ebay Message-ID: <200507272357.QAA08006@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I'm just a little curious. There is a pile of boards on ebay that I'm wondering what they might go to. They seem to have ecl parts but I'm not all that familiar with them to tell. I was wondering what machine these might come from? item 5224152751 Dwight From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 27 19:34:18 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:34:18 -0500 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: References: <1122408684.13599.121.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050727193418.09cf4c13.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:02:47 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Correct. Don't uou have at least one ST506/ST412-interfaced drive > > > schematic? > > > > Nope, unfortunately not :-( I've got various manuals for bridge > > boards, which of course have the connector pin-outs in (and give > > some of the theory), but nothing for a complete hard drive (I > > suppose I'mactually surprised such schematics ever escaped the drive > > manufactuers to be honest, as presumably ST506/412 units were never > > supposed to be field servicable?) > > THe HDAs were not field-repairable, but the PCBs certainly were/are. > > The IBM PC series TechResf contain schematics of some such drives > (which ones depends on exactly which version fo the TechRef amd which > updates you have). I've traced out a couple more. In general these > drives are not particularly complicated, although there may well be > ASICs for things like head switching, motor control, etc. > At one point I grabbed a copy, I don't know where I got it, but think it was from a Tandy 4000 Technical Reference Manual, of a Technical Reference the ST-225 (the old classic 20 meg ST-506 drive that EVERYBODY had back then.) I believe it has schematic diagrams. The bad thing is that it's in a file cabinet behind a BIG pile of gear right now. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Jul 27 19:39:29 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:39:29 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <00fb01c5925f$db8c98a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <42E6FEAB.8070505@compsys.to> <00fb01c5925f$db8c98a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <42E82941.4000705@compsys.to> >John Allain wrote: >>multi-precision libraries which can handle up to 128 bit integers? >> >I wanted to get thousands of digits of Pi once and implemented >it using up to 1500 bit precision integers (Yeah Rite). >For this simple program I just used arrays of integers and kept >shifting carry bits to the left or right, depending on whether I was >dividing or multiplying. I got about 500 digits of Pi at the time >(1976). Today we could probably get something like 5000 digits >in 5 seconds on a PC. >I encourage you to try this yourself. >For example an array of (1,0,0,0) divided by 3 would become (0,3,3,3), >minding carries. An array of (0,0,0,5) times 6 would be (0,0,3,0). >Using these two simple tools I was able to get hundreds of digits of Pi >in 2 pages of code. > Jerome Fine replies: If the code could be written in FORTRAN, it would be fairly simple. Then common source code could be used. But, even if possible, FORTRAN is simply not structured to easily allow multiple operations on succeeding values which are required when adding carry bits between even two words, let alone 8 * 16 bit words needed for 128 bit arithmetic. Which means coding in assembler! Since I do NOT find that to be a problem, I am not very concerned. But in case there was already a library around, I thought I would ask. By the way, are there any standard algorithms for the 4 basic operations (add, subtract, multiply and divide) for 128 bit numbers which are composed of 8 * 16 bit words? As per your suggestion, I would probably use: CHARACTER * 16 ARRAY ( nnn ) If anyone else has some suggestions, please reply. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Jul 27 19:41:08 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:41:08 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17127.33815.474000.806769@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42E6FEAB.8070505@compsys.to> <17127.33815.474000.806769@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42E829A4.7030500@compsys.to> >Paul Koning wrote: > Jerome> I have been having some fun with Prime Numbers using FORTRAN > Jerome> 77 under RT-11 on a PDP-11. Since I rapidly run out of the > Jerome> capacity of 32 bit numbers (INTEGER * 4 NUMBER), I have > Jerome> started to use 64 bit values (REAL * 8 NUMBER) but the > Jerome> conversion routines leave a lot to be desired on output. > Jerome> When using F32.0, I can count on only about 15 digits of > Jerome> accuracy even though the values are often accurate to an > Jerome> exact integer. > >Of course. Just because it's exactly representable as an integer >doesn't mean it's exactly representable as a 64 bit float. Those have >a 56 bit mantissa, which means you have 2^56 bits of resolution, which >translates to roughly 16 digits. (The VAX architecture handbook >mentions that explicitly, by the way.) > Jerome Fine replies: What I am complaining about is not the internal operations, but the conversion routines. I went to the trouble of printing out the values in OCTAL so that I could figure out the problem. A 56 bit mantissa should allow a value of 36,028,797,018,963,968 when the leading (invisible) bit is one with the remaining bits zero. The displayed value is 36,028,797,018,963,965 instead or less by 3. I checked the actual 64 bit float at 56000 octal which is an exponent of 270 octal or 2^55 in excess floating on a PDP-11 (unless my understanding of exactly 1 which is the 64 bit float value of 40200 which is an exponent of 201 octal that must be 2^0 = 1 is incorrect). >Jerome> If needed, I can write my own conversion routines, but I > Jerome> though I might inquire if anyone knows of any libraries which > Jerome> are exact or better still, multi-precision libraries which > Jerome> can handle up to 128 bit integers? > >If you want exact arithmetic, run, don't walk, away from floating >point numbers. Use only integers. > >There the GNU MP library, and others like it. Long integer arithmetic >libraries are commonly found in crypto library packages. Come to >think of it, you'll find functions that are helpful in stuff relating >to prime numbers -- since prime numbers also figure prominently in >cryptography. > >So you could use MP (which is in C) directly, given a suitable >compiler. Or you could port it to Fortran... > Any idea where I could download the source code? Given that FORTRAN is not really suitable for shifting and using carry bits, I would port to MACRO-11. In general, sieve methods for prime numbers don't ever need division and rarely need multiplication. Addition and comparing are the primary operations. Increment is also needed (with increment by 2 and 4 being a big time saver). So the only other thing needed are accurate conversion routines to allow output in decimal instead of octal. I presume that the latter is best done using subtraction of multiple powers of TEN which are stored in a table unless there are better methods of converting the output? Any suggestions? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 27 19:46:42 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:46:42 -0500 Subject: Cleaning out storage room FREE ITEMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050727194642.01cd5daf.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 27 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Hint: Software and manuals can be shipped CHEAP using USPS > > > bookrate. > > > > Be very careful - USPS is getting VERY strict about the use of Media > > Rate and Printed Bound Matter Rate. Most people use Media Rate for > > any printed matter, but by law, any document that shows even a hint > > of advertising or personal correspondence, even if from a 50 year > > old catalog from a firm that no longer exists and written by someone > > now dead, can NOT go Media Rate. Period. No Slack. > > Software is included in the Media Rate. > > > I got this lecture just yesterday from the postguy in the Post > > Office. He said not to abuse Media Rate, or it will go away. > > Not that this is the proper place to discuss this (famous last words) > but I don't udnerstand the premise behind that rate anyway. If it > costs $X to move item K of weight W from point A to point B, why > should it be any different to move item J of weight V instead? > The 'Media Rate' for books and publications, that prohibits advertising, is to promote the cheap shipment of books. For libraries and to promote reading and literacy. It's a form of subsidized shipping. 'For the greater good' and all that. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 27 19:52:18 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:52:18 -0500 Subject: Cleaning out storage room FREE ITEMS In-Reply-To: <200507272138.OAA07930@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200507272138.OAA07930@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050727195218.6f00f160.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:38:01 -0700 (PDT) "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > > >On Wed, 27 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > > >> > Hint: Software and manuals can be shipped CHEAP using USPS > >bookrate.> > >> Be very careful - USPS is getting VERY strict about the use of > >Media> Rate and Printed Bound Matter Rate. Most people use Media Rate > >for any> printed matter, but by law, any document that shows even a > >hint of> advertising or personal correspondence, even if from a 50 > >year old catalog> from a firm that no longer exists and written by > >someone now dead, can NOT> go Media Rate. Period. No Slack. > > > >Software is included in the Media Rate. > > > ---snip--- > > Hi > It is interesting that even a note attached to a pile > of documents can cause it to fail the media rate rule. > I have a stack, about 15 lbs, of copies that I wanted > to send and I had a note on top that said" Here are the > items you requested" or something similar. The postal > fellow saw that and was going to reject the media rate > based on that. I just removed the note. > It is funny that the note contained nothing more than > what an invoice would have. I guess rules are rules. > Dwight > Maybe it isn't possible anymore, but I know that it used to be acceptable to add the First Class postage that would be sufficient to cover the note, in addition to the Media Rate shipping amount. This was at least a decade or more ago, and I've never seen it in writing. > From news at computercollector.com Wed Jul 27 20:48:06 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:48:06 -0400 Subject: Here's another good Kfest 2005 summary Message-ID: <200507280153.j6S1rcMu047830@keith.ezwind.net> Kirk Mitchell's posting to the comp.sys.apple2 newsgroup: http://tinyurl.com/7z54w ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 770 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Jul 27 20:45:14 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cleaning out storage room FREE ITEMS In-Reply-To: <20050727195218.6f00f160.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050728014514.33799.qmail@web81302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Scott Stevens wrote: > Maybe it isn't possible anymore, but I know that it > used to be > acceptable to add the First Class postage that would > be sufficient to > cover the note, in addition to the Media Rate > shipping amount. This was > at least a decade or more ago, and I've never seen > it in writing. I've seen a stamped envelope affixed to the outside of a parcel. At one time, anyhow, that was the standard way to send a personal message along with a parcel. --Bill From KParker at workcover.com Wed Jul 27 20:55:21 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:25:21 +0930 Subject: DR DOS 5.0 Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C369@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> I think its now called Caldera DOS - try Googling it ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Diego Rodriguez Sent: Monday, 25 July 2005 4:26 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: DR DOS 5.0 Anybody knows something about its history ?? I have installation disks with files dated 6/1990 and also a boot disk with some files dated in 2/1991, I know that several bug fixing versions exist, but Which is the last ?? I remembered it when I was reading all that Windows Vista (LongHorn) stuff. Seems that M$ is using 'vaporware' again to distract attention from Intel Mac OS X much like they did with MS-DOS 5.0 and DR DOS 5.0. ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From spc at conman.org Wed Jul 27 21:16:09 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <42E82941.4000705@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Jul 27, 2005 08:39:29 PM Message-ID: <20050728021609.A758373029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jerome H. Fine once stated: > > By the way, are there any standard algorithms for the > 4 basic operations (add, subtract, multiply and divide) > for 128 bit numbers which are composed of 8 * 16 bit > words? As per your suggestion, I would probably use: > CHARACTER * 16 ARRAY ( nnn ) What language? In assembly addition and subtraction are pretty trivial if you have a carry bit you can use (not all RISC based CPUs have a carry bit). Just make sure you keep track of endian issues (given an array A[n] is A[0] the Most Significant or Least Significant word?). So, in Intel x86, the addition routine may look like (A[0] = LSW) multi_byte_add: mov ebx,[esp+8] ; source A value mov esi,[esp+12] ; source B value mov edi,[esp+16] ; destination mov ecx,[esp+20] ; size (in 32-bit words) clc ; clear carry bit .mba_loop: mov eax,[ebx] adc eax,[esi] mov [edi],eax lea ebx,[ebx+4] lea esi,[esi+4] lea edi,[edi+4] dec ecx jnz .mba_loop ret Subtraction works simularly. A full multiplication routine is a bit more daunting---if you know that you are only going to multiply a big number with a word, then it's a bit easier, but still, it comes down do how one does multiplication by hand: A B C D W X Y Z --------------------- AZ BZ CZ DZ AY BY CY DY AX BX CX DX AW BW CW DW (and don't forget the carries!) One trick you might want to try is to take advantage of the fact that these are binary values so multiplication becomes shifts and adds but with larger values like these, doing the multibyte rotates may not be as effective as using the actual MUL instructions. Division is nasty, but again, works like long division. Doing this stuff in C is possible, but you loose out in speed big time. A multibyte addition will look like (warning---untested code! and A[0] = LSW): #include void multi_byte_add(unsigned short *s1,unsigned short *s2,unsigned short *dest,size_t size) { int result; int carry; for (carry = 0 ; size ; size-- , s1++ , s2++ , dest++) { result = *s1 + *s2 + carry; if ((carry = (result > USHRT_MAX))) result -= SHRT_MAX; *dest = (unsigned short)result; } } I have some C code that does some of this---one is a C implementation of a techique Woz used in calculating e to 100,000 digits (as described in Byte magazine of either Dec 1980 or Dec 1981) and another one that does division in C, if you are interested. -spc (Good luck) From rcini at optonline.net Wed Jul 27 21:33:31 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:33:31 -0400 Subject: Memory board info needed Message-ID: <000001c5931c$be89dac0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I'm stocking-up on high-density S100 memory boards (to reduce heat in my Altair) and I just bought an SC Digital 16KUS memory board. It appears to be a 16kx4 board but it has some bank switch DIP switches on it. Does anyone have a manual or schematic for this board? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 27 21:26:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early Apple ][ board sells for $1K+ Message-ID: This was sold by the same guy that had the Apple-1 for sale (which he pulled today with no bids). http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5790352907 Off the scale as far as price goes (maybe $500 on the high end, $1,081 is excessive), but the listing has good photos showing what an early Apple ][ motherboard looks like, including the breadboarding area at the front. Does anyone know what the run count was on these first revision motherboards? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jul 27 21:40:08 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:40:08 -0400 Subject: Memory board info needed Message-ID: <0IKB00FAGGPN07J4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Memory board info needed > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:33:31 -0400 > To: CCTalk > >All: > > I'm stocking-up on high-density S100 memory boards (to reduce heat >in my Altair) and I just bought an SC Digital 16KUS memory board. It appears >to be a 16kx4 board but it has some bank switch DIP switches on it. > > Does anyone have a manual or schematic for this board? Thanks. > I'd suggest something more like a Compupro RAM16 or RAM17, there are many similar to those. What are they? Those are the 64k board using 2116 (2kx8) rams. Low power, cooler and less trouble in the altair (bus noise and cooling). Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 27 22:22:13 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:22:13 -0500 Subject: DR DOS 5.0 In-Reply-To: <20050724185618.77581.qmail@web26402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050724185618.77581.qmail@web26402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050727222213.7e95d26b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:56:18 +0200 (CEST) Diego Rodriguez wrote: > Anybody knows something about its history ?? > I have installation disks with files dated 6/1990 and also a boot disk > with some files dated in 2/1991, I know that several bug fixing > versions exist, but Which is the last ?? > > I remembered it when I was reading all that Windows Vista (LongHorn) > stuff. Seems that M$ is using 'vaporware' again to distract attention > from Intel Mac OS X much like they did with MS-DOS 5.0 and DR DOS 5.0. > I have a set of disks for DR-DOS 3.41 on original Digital Research diskettes in a matched set with the GEM/3 Desktop. This combination was a competitor with Windows 3.0 if I recall correctly. The only 'big' Application for GEM I'm aware of was Ventura Publisher. It appears it was all licensed together as a set. There are rubberstamped matching serial numbers on all the diskettes, and there are two S/N's, one for the DR-DOS diskettes and a second for the GEM desktop. There's also a full manual set and the sticker on front of the DR-DOS users guide has a hologram Digital Research sticker that cites "DR DOS, R3.X, GEM/3 Desktop, R3.X and GEM Paint, R2.X." So it's a full bundle. My copy is in original 'plain white' box. All together as a set, it's a good possible candidate to run on the Compaq Portable III that I recently got at an auction (for $10, and the display is perfect). From fernande at internet1.net Wed Jul 27 22:21:04 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:21:04 -0400 Subject: Early Apple ][ board sells for $1K+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E84F20.10007@internet1.net> Wow, first thing I notice is that it has 8 slots instead of seven! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > This was sold by the same guy that had the Apple-1 for sale (which he > pulled today with no bids). > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5790352907 > > Off the scale as far as price goes (maybe $500 on the high end, $1,081 is > excessive), but the listing has good photos showing what an early Apple ][ > motherboard looks like, including the breadboarding area at the front. > > Does anyone know what the run count was on these first revision > motherboards? > From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 27 22:24:48 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:24:48 -0500 Subject: Early Apple ][ board sells for $1K+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050727222448.6af4ff0e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > This was sold by the same guy that had the Apple-1 for sale (which he > pulled today with no bids). > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5790352907 > > Off the scale as far as price goes (maybe $500 on the high end, $1,081 > is excessive), but the listing has good photos showing what an early > Apple ][ motherboard looks like, including the breadboarding area at > the front. > It's a shame to see that poor board 'held prisoner' in a wooden frame case. How's any voltage going to get to it so it can 'live?' From fernande at internet1.net Wed Jul 27 22:23:36 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:23:36 -0400 Subject: Early Apple ][ board sells for $1K+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E84FB8.8040600@internet1.net> Ooops, now that I look at my board again, I see that the 8th slot on the ebay board is probably just the aux. connector! It still has lots more chips than my board though! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jul 27 22:33:32 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:33:32 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk Update (was TeleDisk Replacement) Message-ID: <20050728033331.JRQH21628.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> I've been working away at my ImageDisk utility, and have made a number of fixes, including some corrections to the sides/stepping detect logic which failed to properly detect some mixed density disks. I have added several new features, including improvements to the "Align/Test" function, and the ability to translate the data rates (This lets you do things like recreate DD disks read on DD drives on HD drives and vice-versa). This evening I finally wired up a cable to connect a double-sided 8" drive to my PC, and was very pleased to see that I was able to backup and restore several mixed density 8" disks with no problems - even a double backup and restore (backup of backup then restore) still matched the original and booted correctly. I have also created a first cut at my "Analyze/Merge" utility, this is a companion utility which: - Provides a detailed report of the track/sector layout and data formats occuring in the diskette image. - Can perform a logical sector by sector compare of two disk images, even if the binary layout is not exactly the same (usually due to different comment or problems detecting interleave). - Can merge two images into one, allowing you to take advantage of the fact that some PC's may read different sectors than others (one of my machines refuses to read the first sector on Cromemco disks while a second machine fails to read the last sector) - and create a complete image by merging them. It's late and I'm going to bed - in the morning, I will transmit the updated software to the people who already requested and received the first version (If you don't want to receive any more updates, please let me know). If anyone else wants to join in the fun, please drop me a line and I'll add you to my list. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 27 23:35:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early Apple ][ board sells for $1K+ In-Reply-To: <42E84FB8.8040600@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jul 2005, C Fernandez wrote: > Ooops, now that I look at my board again, I see that the 8th slot on the > ebay board is probably just the aux. connector! It still has lots more > chips than my board though! The Apple ][ and ][+ bth had 8 slots. Slot 0 was for memory or ROM cards. What Apple ][ model are you referring to? The ][ and ][+ motherboards both had lots of chips and the design didn't change that much between them. The //e and later boards were drastically different. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jul 27 23:44:53 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:44:53 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink Message-ID: <42E862C5.6050506@jbrain.com> I'm not sure how far afield Classic Computers goes, but I am interested in anyone here who used, worked on, or knew about the QuantumLink service for the Commodore 64/128 machines. With help from someone who's spent lots of time deciphering the QLink protocol, I am busy re-implementing the server. So far, the stock QLink disk will login and show the main page, you can select any of the 7 "message" areas and the screen will show menus for each area, and I am now working on implementing the "People Connection" chat system. By no means I have made even a dent in all of the functionality of the system (games, file downloads, etc.), but it is impressive to see the old disks and serviuce running again. Currently, I have the basic chat (join, leave, say) working for multiple users. Sadly, I never used the original system, so I am lost as to how exactly things progressed from screen to screen (where did you change you screen name, for example), so I'm eager to hear from others. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Thu Jul 28 00:08:12 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 01:08:12 -0400 Subject: QuantumLink In-Reply-To: <42E862C5.6050506@jbrain.com> References: <42E862C5.6050506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050728010654.0518f0d0@pop-server> At 12:44 AM 7/28/2005, you wrote: >I'm not sure how far afield Classic Computers goes, but I am >interested in anyone here who used, worked on, or knew about the >QuantumLink service for the Commodore 64/128 machines. I used Quantum Link years ago on my C64. I even have some old disks around here some where. Dont have a lot of answers for you but if the conversation gets started it will start coming back to me ================================= Gene Ehrich gehrich at tampabay.rr.com From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Thu Jul 28 00:19:13 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 01:19:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: QuantumLink In-Reply-To: <42E862C5.6050506@jbrain.com> References: <42E862C5.6050506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <50492.68.155.26.63.1122527953.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> On Thu, July 28, 2005 12:44 am, Jim Brain said: > I'm not sure how far afield Classic Computers goes, but I am interested > in anyone here who used, worked on, or knew about the QuantumLink > service for the Commodore 64/128 machines. I used to work there (tho after it changed it's name from Quantum) and know some of the implementors; I'll send word along and see what pops up. Things got pretty busy in the 90's and I have no idea what was kept from the elder days. I have some baubles (qlink keychain, install disks); I don't think anyone kept backup tapes of the server software, since it ran on Stratus minis, not exactly something people had in their basements. Plus it was company confidential, etc. I do remember the qlink sunset (system shutdown) party in 1994 or 95 - one of my friends walked around carrying a "Repent! The Reboot is Near!" sign, spouting tounge-in-cheek predictions of doom and gloom. Hard to be very gloomy, when you have free beer and snacks. We were sad but kinda happy, since we no longer had to maintain the "if (client == qlink)" exceptions in the server code. Jeff From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Jul 28 05:32:58 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:32:58 -0400 Subject: TG43 signal and the Nec 765 Message-ID: <20050728103257.OKKF21628.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, I'm using a relatively modern 1/2 height 8" drive for my PC interface, which does not seem to care about TG43 - I left it unconnected, and it appears to be writing images just fine. It would however seem to be a good idea to support it for older drives and drives that need it... Question: According to the NEC 765 datasheets, pin 38 is LC/DIR, it indicates "Low Current" (TG43) during writes to inner tracks, and "direction" during STEP operations. It would seem that you might be able to simply stuff this signal into both pins 34 (Direction) and 2 (TG43) of the 8" interface, since the drive should not care about DIRECTION when STEP is not active, and it should not care about TG43 when WRITE is not active, and the two operations are mutually exclusive. However none of the information and cable diagrams I've seen indicate such a connection, suggesting that this might not work. Q: Can you simply drive both signals from the one source, or do TG43 and STEP need to be externally demultiplexed? As an alternative, I think I will also provide an option to generate TG43 via a parallel port output. Q: Should TG43 be asserted any time the drive is positioned to a cylinder >43, or should it be asserted only during WRITE operations when at a cylinder >43? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jul 28 07:27:43 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:27:43 -0400 Subject: TG43 signal and the Nec 765 Message-ID: <0IKC00KE87WS5JC2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: TG43 signal and the Nec 765 > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:32:58 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Hi Guys, > >I'm using a relatively modern 1/2 height 8" drive for my PC >interface, which does not seem to care about TG43 - I left >it unconnected, and it appears to be writing images just fine. > >It would however seem to be a good idea to support it for >older drives and drives that need it... > >Question: > >According to the NEC 765 datasheets, pin 38 is LC/DIR, it >indicates "Low Current" (TG43) during writes to inner tracks, >and "direction" during STEP operations. > >It would seem that you might be able to simply stuff this >signal into both pins 34 (Direction) and 2 (TG43) of the 8" >interface, since the drive should not care about DIRECTION >when STEP is not active, and it should not care about TG43 >when WRITE is not active, and the two operations are mutually >exclusive. However none of the information and cable diagrams >I've seen indicate such a connection, suggesting that this >might not work. Some drives don't like that. > >Q: Can you simply drive both signals from the one source, or > do TG43 and STEP need to be externally demultiplexed? > The standard has to bee demultiplex it. The need and use of TG43 is for writing. >As an alternative, I think I will also provide an option to >generate TG43 via a parallel port output. > >Q: Should TG43 be asserted any time the drive is positioned > to a cylinder >43, or should it be asserted only during > WRITE operations when at a cylinder >43? TG43 is mostly a relic signal of older 8" drives. Not all of them used it. Also it's supposed to be meaningless on read. I may add that more than a few designers also used demuxed TG43 to switch write precompensation in DD modes on 8" drives for better data reliability. Is this for a Cpro Disk-1(A) or something from the ground up? Allison From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Jul 28 07:40:38 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:40:38 -0400 Subject: TG43 signal and the Nec 765 Message-ID: <20050728124037.PWNY21628.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >TG43 is mostly a relic signal of older 8" drives. Not all >of them used it. Also it's supposed to be meaningless on read. > >I may add that more than a few designers also used demuxed TG43 >to switch write precompensation in DD modes on 8" drives for >better data reliability. Can you elaborate.? >Is this for a Cpro Disk-1(A) or something from the ground up? No, it for my ImageDisk utility, which is a replacement for TeleDisk with a documented image file format - I want to provide support for 8" drives that need TG43. Regards, Dave PS: For those on my list - I'm making some last minute changes so I won't be sending the update until this evening. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jul 28 07:52:10 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:52:10 -0400 Subject: QuantumLink In-Reply-To: <50492.68.155.26.63.1122527953.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> References: <42E862C5.6050506@jbrain.com> <50492.68.155.26.63.1122527953.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> Message-ID: <42E8D4FA.3090401@atarimuseum.com> I used pre-Quantum which was called "CVC" and you plugged a special CVC modem into your Atari 2600 and could download games from there servers over the phone line. Curt Jeff Davis wrote: >On Thu, July 28, 2005 12:44 am, Jim Brain said: > > >>I'm not sure how far afield Classic Computers goes, but I am interested >>in anyone here who used, worked on, or knew about the QuantumLink >>service for the Commodore 64/128 machines. >> >> > >I used to work there (tho after it changed it's name from Quantum) and know >some of the implementors; I'll send word along and see what pops up. Things >got pretty busy in the 90's and I have no idea what was kept from the elder >days. > >I have some baubles (qlink keychain, install disks); I don't think anyone kept >backup tapes of the server software, since it ran on Stratus minis, not >exactly something people had in their basements. Plus it was company >confidential, etc. > >I do remember the qlink sunset (system shutdown) party in 1994 or 95 - one of >my friends walked around carrying a "Repent! The Reboot is Near!" sign, >spouting tounge-in-cheek predictions of doom and gloom. Hard to be very >gloomy, when you have free beer and snacks. We were sad but kinda happy, >since we no longer had to maintain the "if (client == qlink)" exceptions in >the server code. > >Jeff > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: 7/27/2005 From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jul 28 07:54:44 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:54:44 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 References: <42E6FEAB.8070505@compsys.to> <00fb01c5925f$db8c98a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <42E82941.4000705@compsys.to> Message-ID: <17128.54676.531000.305696@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jerome" == Jerome H Fine writes: Jerome> If the code could be written in FORTRAN, it would be fairly Jerome> simple. Then common source code could be used. But, even if Jerome> possible, FORTRAN is simply not structured to easily allow Jerome> multiple operations on succeeding values which are required Jerome> when adding carry bits between even two words, let alone 8 * Jerome> 16 bit words needed for 128 bit arithmetic. Which means Jerome> coding in assembler! Actually, carry is easy. There's a simple trick I learned on the Alpha, but it applies anywhere. Given UNSIGNED variables: c = a + b; if (c < a) { /* you got a carry */ } Tweak as needed for signed. Jerome> Since I do NOT find that to be a problem, I am not very Jerome> concerned. But in case there was already a library around, I Jerome> thought I would ask. Jerome> By the way, are there any standard algorithms for the 4 basic Jerome> operations (add, subtract, multiply and divide) for 128 bit Jerome> numbers which are composed of 8 * 16 bit words? As per your Jerome> suggestion, I would probably use: CHARACTER * 16 ARRAY ( nnn Jerome> ) Knuth vol. 1 may help. Reading GNU MP may also help, though that is likely to be optimized for much bigger integers (1024 bits or more). paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 28 08:11:32 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:11:32 +0000 Subject: TG43 signal and the Nec 765 In-Reply-To: <20050728124037.PWNY21628.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050728124037.PWNY21628.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <1122556292.17770.54.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 08:40 -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >Is this for a Cpro Disk-1(A) or something from the ground up? > > No, it for my ImageDisk utility, which is a replacement for > TeleDisk with a documented image file format - I want to provide > support for 8" drives that need TG43. What platforms does it work on? (I could certainly use something for Linux which was able to do as much as possible with the crappy PC FDC... :-) Presumably DOS-only? (Was there ever even a teledisk for Windows?) cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jul 28 08:12:35 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:12:35 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 References: <42E6FEAB.8070505@compsys.to> <17127.33815.474000.806769@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42E829A4.7030500@compsys.to> Message-ID: <17128.55747.222000.899799@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jerome" == Jerome H Fine writes: Jerome> What I am complaining about is not the internal operations, Jerome> but the conversion routines. I went to the trouble of Jerome> printing out the values in OCTAL so that I could figure out Jerome> the problem. A 56 bit mantissa should allow a value of Jerome> 36,028,797,018,963,968 when the leading (invisible) bit is Jerome> one with the remaining bits zero. The displayed value is Jerome> 36,028,797,018,963,965 instead or less by 3. ... That would be a bug. Not surprising. Floating point arithmetic should be, and can be, accurate to the last bit. But very often it is not, because it's *hard* to do that. DEC had a team of specialists who worked on the numeric algorithms for VAX. The PDP-11 libraries didn't get the benefit of that work, so it is not surprising to find errors in the last few bits. As I said, if you want exact answers, DO NOT use float. >> There the GNU MP library, and others like it. Long integer >> arithmetic libraries are commonly found in crypto library >> packages. Come to think of it, you'll find functions that are >> helpful in stuff relating to prime numbers -- since prime numbers >> also figure prominently in cryptography. >> >> So you could use MP (which is in C) directly, given a suitable >> compiler. Or you could port it to Fortran... >> Jerome> Any idea where I could download the source code? Given that Jerome> FORTRAN is not really suitable for shifting and using carry Jerome> bits, I would port to MACRO-11. It's right in the GNU software library listing: http://directory.fsf.org/GNU/gnump.html Jerome> In general, sieve methods for prime numbers don't ever need Jerome> division and rarely need multiplication. Addition and Jerome> comparing are the primary operations. Increment is also Jerome> needed (with increment by 2 and 4 being a big time saver). Jerome> So the only other thing needed are accurate conversion Jerome> routines to allow output in decimal instead of octal. I Jerome> presume that the latter is best done using subtraction of Jerome> multiple powers of TEN which are stored in a table unless Jerome> there are better methods of converting the output? Any Jerome> suggestions? I'm sure I/O is part of GnuMP. Decimal? Probably, I haven't looked. Multiplication is very definitely in there, it has to be, that's a critical function for crypto. Division I don't know about either. It certainly should be there if GnuMP was aiming to be a general arithmetic package. If all else fails, it certainly has modular arithmetic (again, because of crypto) from which you can synthesize division if it isn't already there. Oh yes, I'm quite sure it also includes primality tests -- presumably the Miller-Rabin test. paul From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jul 28 08:13:06 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:13:06 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink In-Reply-To: <50492.68.155.26.63.1122527953.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> References: <42E862C5.6050506@jbrain.com> <50492.68.155.26.63.1122527953.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728081024.05005008@mail> At 12:19 AM 7/28/2005, Jeff Davis wrote: >I used to work there (tho after it changed it's name from Quantum) and know >some of the implementors; I'll send word along and see what pops up. Things >got pretty busy in the 90's and I have no idea what was kept from the elder >days. Were you there during the time they offered the Amiga Link service? I don't remember if it was developer-only or open to the public, but I used it. - John From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jul 28 08:38:34 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:38:34 -0400 Subject: QuantumLink In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050728081024.05005008@mail> References: <42E862C5.6050506@jbrain.com> <50492.68.155.26.63.1122527953.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050728081024.05005008@mail> Message-ID: <42E8DFDA.5080700@atarimuseum.com> Amigalink? I don't recall that, I thought that it went right to the Apple Support service after that which I remember using, I was authorized Mac Systems and LaserWriter support and I got an Applecare account to use the on-line resources from the service and I had thought that Quantum was providing the backend support for that, right? Curt John Foust wrote: >At 12:19 AM 7/28/2005, Jeff Davis wrote: > > >>I used to work there (tho after it changed it's name from Quantum) and know >>some of the implementors; I'll send word along and see what pops up. Things >>got pretty busy in the 90's and I have no idea what was kept from the elder >>days. >> >> > >Were you there during the time they offered the Amiga Link >service? I don't remember if it was developer-only or open >to the public, but I used it. > >- John > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: 7/27/2005 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jul 28 09:29:29 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:29:29 -0400 Subject: TG43 signal and the Nec 765 Message-ID: <0IKC006XPDJPR5HI@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TG43 signal and the Nec 765 > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:40:38 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>TG43 is mostly a relic signal of older 8" drives. Not all >>of them used it. Also it's supposed to be meaningless on read. >> >>I may add that more than a few designers also used demuxed TG43 >>to switch write precompensation in DD modes on 8" drives for >>better data reliability. > >Can you elaborate.? One of the things done when writing to a Floppy [it's done with all FDC chips if it's done at all!] is to deliberately twook the bit timing based on the bit pattern. The FDC provides a set of control signals (in hardware) and drives a bit of logic to intentionally smear the bits in time to allow for the media effects of close flux transistions. In most cses this is all hardware but usually the amount of precompensation is adjustable by both bit rate and a non FDC control register (back in the 1791/765 days). Some designs further modified the precomp value for the inner tracks (TG43) as drives didn't use TG43 or based on the deigners evaluation of bit crowding on the inner tracks might also alter the precomp timing to optimize flux transistion spacing. This is important as bits written to magnetic media tend to spread themselves out or crowd based on pattern when written closely. Hope this helps. >>Is this for a Cpro Disk-1(A) or something from the ground up? > >No, it for my ImageDisk utility, which is a replacement for >TeleDisk with a documented image file format - I want to provide >support for 8" drives that need TG43. Ok, then I take it that this is in a PC FDC that is based on the 765 core? I ask as a way to point out that features and functions that the base 765 chip have as implemented on an something like a Disk1A are very differnt in a PC. Largely the PC design truncates the interface from the 765 to something simpler abd often far less flexible. Some of the really late chips (post 37C65) do not even fully implement the full complment of interface signals and may only have limited access to things like precomp timing or worse those functions are "wired" by the chips designer to fit their view of what floppies are (IE: antique = 8" floppy, unsupported). Allison From fernande at internet1.net Thu Jul 28 09:36:45 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:36:45 -0400 Subject: Early Apple ][ board sells for $1K+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E8ED7D.50407@internet1.net> I'm refering to the //e. I tend to forget that the //e wasn't first in the Apple // series. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > What Apple ][ model are you referring to? The ][ and ][+ motherboards > both had lots of chips and the design didn't change that much between > them. The //e and later boards were drastically different. > From allain at panix.com Thu Jul 28 09:43:44 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:43:44 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 References: <42E6FEAB.8070505@compsys.to><00fb01c5925f$db8c98a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <42E82941.4000705@compsys.to> Message-ID: <00a801c59382$c1b31de0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > FORTRAN is simply not structured to easily allow > multiple operations on succeeding values... The Pi program I mentioned was in Fortran, probably even in F66. This didn't stop me. Easy /vs/ hard in this case just meant slower code, no great pains in programming at all. If I were to make a library, I'd just put the exponent in the array with the Integer part(s). > Since I do NOT find that to be a problem, I am not > very concerned. Great > But in case there was already a library around, I > thought I would ask. Looks like you have two Solutions, Gnu-MP and hand coding to your needs. Both seem like the same amount of work, one to build up, the other to simplify down. > {add and subtract too?} My basic approach was to store numbers in <= half the bits of the whole integer (like 8b out of I16), perform the operation, whatever it was piecewise across the array, then "normalize", cleaning up, by sweeping across and carrying the excess bits to the next array element(s). Two pass and slowish, but getting "Integer" perfect results on real sized numbers was the thrill of it. Rolling in a normalizer into the four operations individually would increase code size 2 ~ 3X but may be what you want. John A. From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Jul 28 10:03:50 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:03:50 -0400 Subject: TG43 signal and the Nec 765 Message-ID: <200507281503.j6SF3nPs011669@mail4.magma.ca> >>Can you elaborate.? > >One of the things done when writing to a Floppy [it's done with all >FDC chips if it's done at all!] is to deliberately twook the bit >timing based on the bit pattern. >... >Hope this helps. I guess I should have been more clear - I understand Precomp, but I had the impression from your original message that some drives may expect special charactistics of the TG43 signals - I gather that "normal operation" (asserting it from Cylinder 44 on during writes) is all that is necessary? - let the drive worry about what to do, just provide the signal. >>No, it for my ImageDisk utility, which is a replacement for >>TeleDisk with a documented image file format - I want to provide >>support for 8" drives that need TG43. > >Ok, then I take it that this is in a PC FDC that is based on the >765 core? > >I ask as a way to point out that features and functions that the >base 765 chip have as implemented on an something like a Disk1A >are very differnt in a PC. Largely the PC design truncates the >interface from the 765 to something simpler abd often far less >flexible. Some of the really late chips (post 37C65) do not >even fully implement the full complment of interface signals >and may only have limited access to things like precomp timing >or worse those functions are "wired" by the chips designer to fit >their view of what floppies are (IE: antique = 8" floppy, >unsupported). Believe me, I am aware of the limitations of the PC design, and the rudeness of some of the later designs... fortunately a lot of the guys here have older machines :-) I'm creating a replacement for Teledisk because: - I need to reliably backup and restore diskette images, and to post them for download (along with the tools to recreate them). - Sydex no longer supports TeleDisk, and is actively trying to get it removed from availability. - TeleDisk does not document the image file format, which makes it very difficult to explore other means of recreating the image if TeleDisk doesn't succeed. I am also creating systems to backup and restore images of disks which are not compatible with the PC controller, including several systems which work by serial transfer with the original host. This is just another piece in the puzzle. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Jul 28 10:15:22 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:15:22 -0400 Subject: TG43 signal and the Nec 765 Message-ID: <200507281515.j6SFFL7n004222@mail1.magma.ca> >> No, it for my ImageDisk utility, which is a replacement for >> TeleDisk with a documented image file format - I want to provide >> support for 8" drives that need TG43. > >What platforms does it work on? (I could certainly use something for >Linux which was able to do as much as possible with the crappy PC >FDC... :-) > >Presumably DOS-only? (Was there ever even a teledisk for Windows?) Yes, it runs under DOS. I need access to the "bare metal" without interference ... I don't think there was ever a TeleDisk for winblows, and I'm nut sure it would be feasable. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jul 28 10:29:57 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:29:57 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:54:44 EDT." <17128.54676.531000.305696@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200507281529.j6SFTvhl007338@mwave.heeltoe.com> Paul Koning wrote: > >Given UNSIGNED variables: > c = a + b; > if (c < a) > { /* you got a carry */ } huh. and to think of all the cycles I wasted using long long with a 33 bit shift :-) that's a nice trick - thanks! -brad From tlindner at watermarkpress.com Thu Jul 21 13:12:52 2005 From: tlindner at watermarkpress.com (tim lindner) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:12:52 -0700 Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: <1h01qvi.1olmmco61yqycM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <1h01r50.100epdi1obgk5kM%tlindner@watermarkpress.com> tim lindner wrote: > This certiantly looks like the front end of an electronic typesetter. -- tim lindner tlindner at watermarkpress.com Bright From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Thu Jul 21 14:07:17 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:07:17 -0500 Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050721082717.04f153c8@albert> Message-ID: <200507211916.j6LJGJ6a069352@keith.ezwind.net> http://www.austinfs.fsnet.co.uk/fixed_pages/Apple_II_Linotype-Paul.html Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob > Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 2:35 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Apple? > > Now I'm not an expert on these, indeed I know nothing at all > about apples, but these look pretty weird to me - are they > actually what they say they > are, and really common? eBay item 5219329581 (expensive as > usual, so no > bids) for three linotype boxes, one of which has a disc drive > with an apple logo on it. (Listing has some larger pics > linked from it). > > > > > From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Thu Jul 21 14:08:25 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:08:25 -0500 Subject: Interex shuts down In-Reply-To: <00f801c58cbc$1adf28a0$0b01a8c0@Mike> Message-ID: <200507211917.j6LJHSIP069372@keith.ezwind.net> Where is the site? Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Nadeau > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 6:47 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Interex shuts down > > The HP user group, Interex, has abruptly ceased operations > due to financial difficulties. The site is still up, and the > publicly accessible information is still there, but the > publications have been terminated. Interex has been around > for 31 years, and has information and software archives. > Thought I'd mention it here in case anyone wanted to attempt > a rescue of those archives. > > --Mike > > > From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Thu Jul 21 14:18:28 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 14:18:28 -0500 Subject: New to list -- Many Issues -- Many Parts Available. In-Reply-To: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8960B3F66@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> Message-ID: <200507211927.j6LJRULd069488@keith.ezwind.net> IIRC, water will not normally damage floppy disks. What you may have to do is clean them very carefully. You can cut open the plastic envelope and remove the disk. Rinse the mud off the disk, use soap and water if necessary, and keep your fingers off the medium. Let air dry. Open a spare disk envelope and replace the disk with the one you are trying to salvage. Put it in a drive and give it a go. Water by itself will not normally damage electronic circuits. Mud may be another thing. If the water is not removed promptly then you can get rusting on mechanical parts. If power is applied while water is present all bets are off. I have heard tell of vendors who would wash electronic equipment in a dishwasher prior to refurbishing it. The teletype is probably a different kettle of fish. Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pat Fitzpatrick > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 6:31 PM > To: 'cctech at classiccmp.org' > Subject: New to list -- Many Issues -- Many Parts Available. > > Hi List, > > I've been a collector (and user) of obsolete computer systems > for many years. This list looks like a great source of > information. Anyhow... > > Until our basement flooded a couple of weeks ago, I had: > ... > The IMSAI box and the terminal are ok, but the disk drive (an > SA400, I believe) and (worse) the box of floppies didn't make > it. The drive might be salvageable, but I'm afraid the > diskettes are toast. Does anyone out there have any 5-1/4 > inch 10 sector (hard sectored) floppies? And a copy of the > NorthStar DOS and BASIC that they'd like to sell/trade/etc? > ... > As to the other stuff, some is good, some isn't but if anyone > needs any parts, I might be able to help out. > > Pat Fitzpatrick > From sdc695 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 21 17:53:23 2005 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Manual for Qualstar 1260S tape drive Message-ID: <20050721225324.287.qmail@web60818.mail.yahoo.com> I recently obtained a Qualstar 1260S (SCSI) 9 track tape drive. Lacking was both the power cord, and any documentation. It is as I expected, Ebay and all. Now I'm looking for a manual of some sort. Bitsavers DOES have a Qualstar section, but no info on the 1260S drive. I suppose I could just hook it up and hope for the best, but some documentation would be nice. I'd even make a copy of someone's original (I'm not very picky). Thanks for any help. -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Jul 21 19:46:06 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:46:06 -0400 Subject: IBM Token Ring In-Reply-To: <200507200543.j6K5hG0Y048643@keith.ezwind.net> References: <001101c58cc7$1421b0e0$0100a8c0@screamer> <200507200543.j6K5hG0Y048643@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050721203843.0314fad8@mail.n.ml.org> Actually, I feel pretty retarded, but I may as well ask (pre-emptive shut-up, Sellam -grin). I have been trying to get my TR network working for over a year now and can't for some damned reason. Most of the NICs are either Madge or IBM PCI (a few are Olicom PCI/ISA or IBM MCA). The hubs are Bay Networks Baystack 504 (loaded with DCM, NMM, MDA, etc) or Centillion 100 with TokenSpeed 4 port blades mixed with ATMSpeed/155 and EtherSpeed 10/100 blades. Can't get either to properly allow the NICs to communicate over the hubs. Tried a lot of things and still can't figure out what is wrong. Also have an IBM 8228 MAU, but no reset tool to make it work. I have all the cabling and even tried RJ45<->RJ45 vs. Type 1 vampire<->DB9 cabling - nothing. Anyone have any ideas? I was dumb and gave my working 3Com TR hub to a friend years ago, so that is out of the picture. What I can't understand is why I can't get the 504 working on the network again after it ran a few years ago when last used. -John Boffemmyer IV At 01:34 AM 7/20/2005, you wrote: >Originally this topic was about Apollo TR but several questions have come up >about IBM TR. I happen to have spent several years with different vendors of >IBM Token Ring hardware and IMHO am somewhat of an expert on the topic. I >would be glad to answer any in depth questions but I suspect that the >majority of the list members would be bored. On the other had there is >always the delete key. Either way, let me know. > >Gil > >A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director >The Museum at CSE >University of Texas at Arlington >Department of Computer Science & Engineering >Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street >Arlington, TX 76019 >817-272-3620 >http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/54 - Release Date: 7/21/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/54 - Release Date: 7/21/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/54 - Release Date: 7/21/2005 From MauriceS at MyRealBox.com Fri Jul 22 10:38:08 2005 From: MauriceS at MyRealBox.com (Maurice Smulders) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:38:08 -0600 Subject: New to list -- Many Issues -- Many Parts Available. In-Reply-To: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8960B3F66@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> References: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8960B3F66@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> Message-ID: <42E112E0.1050005@MyRealBox.com> Pat Fitzpatrick wrote: > As for the HP64000s, the consoles are ok, but the disk drive drowned. > From a quick search, I'm not real optimistic about finding another > HPIB disk drive and I'm not too excited about plunging into this one > to try and fix him (he was running when the waters came and he smells > very bad). Has anyone ever taught a PC (for example) with a GPIB card > to think it's a CS80 Drive?? Does anyone have a spare disk gathering > dust? Failing that, does anyone (besides me) still use these things? > The consoles are probably too heavy to ship, but I have lots of cards, > software, manuals etc in working order if anyone needs them. > > I started a project on Sourceforge (softcs80) to do that. I found the specs on bitsavers (Thanks Al) and they don't look to terribly bad... If only a PCI GPIB card would be a bit cheaper... Kind regards, Maurice From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 13:04:03 2005 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (maurice smulders) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 12:04:03 -0600 Subject: New to list -- Many Issues -- Many Parts Available. Message-ID: <7d94035805072211044eb4b6f7@mail.gmail.com> Pat Fitzpatrick wrote: > As for the HP64000s, the consoles are ok, but the disk drive drowned. From a quick search, I'm not real optimistic about finding another HPIB disk drive and I'm not too excited about plunging into this one to try and fix him (he was running when the waters came and he smells very bad). Has anyone ever taught a PC (for example) with a GPIB card to think it's a CS80 Drive?? Does anyone have a spare disk gathering dust? Failing that, does anyone (besides me) still use these things? The consoles are probably too heavy to ship, but I have lots of cards, software, manuals etc in working order if anyone needs them. > > I started a project on Sourceforge (softcs80) to do that. I found the specs on bitsavers (Thanks Al) and they don't look to terribly bad... If only a PCI GPIB card would be a bit cheaper... Kind regards, Maurice From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Jul 23 12:05:44 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:05:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45679.195.212.29.91.1122138344.squirrel@195.212.29.91> > On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, chris wrote: > >> I don't think they are Apple's. Linotype made printing presses didn't >> they (still do?). Could these be interfaces for said printing presses. >> Early DTP type stuff. Maybe one was specifically retrofitted with an >> Apple Disk II drive for loading Apple files onto the press system. > > You'd still need the magic of the Disk ][ controller to read Apple ][ > disks. The cable sitting in the empty drive bay of the one with the Apple-badged disk drive looks about the right size for an Apple disk drive. Gordon. From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Sat Jul 23 19:57:38 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:57:38 -0500 Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507240106.j6O16dC8095488@keith.ezwind.net> http://www.adc-colorado.com/hp_agilent_software.htm http://www.tamsinc.com/basic/2047k/2047k.htm It appears that this number is the BASIC compiler. Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 6:58 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: What is an HP98616? > > I've just come across an HP box containing 5 3.5" floppies. > They all have original HP labels on them. > > All the labels contain the following > > Hewlett-Packard > 9000 Series 200/300 > 98616A Opt. 045 > BASIC 5.1 > > The rest of ithe label depends on the disk : > > System Disk > Pat No 98616-10500 Rev. 5.1 > > > Drivers + Language Ext > Part No 98616-10501 Rev. 5.1 > > > Utilities Disc > Part No 98616-10502 Rev. 5.1 > > HFS Utilities > Part No 98616-10503 Rev. 5.1 > > > Manual Examples Disc > Part No 98616-10504 Rev 5.1 > > > Anyone know what it is, and what machine it runs on? > > -tony > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 23 20:27:21 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Rainbow disks - help Message-ID: <20050724012721.20810.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> I just acquired a Rainbow with ~10 boxes of disks. Most are for DOS it seems, though some for cpm/86. Could someone explain the differences between the types of media meant to run on this puter, whether it has to do with os, or physical properties (soft sectored, hard sectored, RX50...). I also have access to a crate of pro 350 disks, and would like to know how to archive them. Is Teledisk or any other program useful for any of this? --- HOn3 at yahoogroups.com wrote: > I've been pondering how to organize and store my old issues > of the Gazette. I've got most back to 1990 so far (still > acquiting older issues too). > > In the past, I've used the cheap plastic shelf cases that > have one corner cut off. But I have a hard time putting the > issues back in the right container after searching for a > particular old article, and just don't like these > containers much in general, anyway. > > What I'd really like are the kind of multiple copy binder > seen at this link: > > http://www.vulcan-online.com/productDetail.aspx?id=multimagazine > > That way, I could browse through 2 years at a time and > never get the issues out of order. (You can, of course, > still remove the issues if you want/need to) But I can't > find a retailer for these (the link is to a manufacturer). > > The cases advertised in the Gazette are just storage boxes > with one open side and a capacity of maybe 12 issues. And > even in quantity, they're $13.33 each, a bit expensive for > what you get IMHO. > > Anybody have any other ideas, experiences, or suggestions? > I'd even be willing to organize a group buy of the multiple > copy binders I listed above if there was sufficient > interest. > > Thanks, > > Cary Hocker > Richland Hills, TX > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From keith at saracom.com Sun Jul 24 13:14:55 2005 From: keith at saracom.com (keith at saracom.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:14:55 -0400 Subject: What is an HP98616? In-Reply-To: <200507241700.j6OH0Htl091298@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507241700.j6OH0Htl091298@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: For what its worth, I have access to a stack of HP 300 machines at work. I think they are mainly 310 machines. I have keyboards too. I have been given the OK to do with them as I please. Unfortunately, we have only 1 drive and its in use in a HP Rocky Mountain Basic app. at that. If I ever finish my Labview port, its going home with me :) Anyway, if anyone is interested, $20 each (my time) plus actual shipping costs. If you are in Lexington KY, stop by and grab one or two free!. BTW, I think it boots the disk. Least it did on my diskettes. I will have to check to see which option they are. Max > I've just come across an HP box containing 5 3.5" >floppies. They all have > original HP labels on them. > > All the labels contain the following > > Hewlett-Packard > 9000 Series 200/300 > 98616A Opt. 045 > BASIC 5.1 > > The rest of ithe label depends on the disk : > > System Disk > Pat No 98616-10500 Rev. 5.1 > > > Drivers + Language Ext > Part No 98616-10501 Rev. 5.1 > > > Utilities Disc > Part No 98616-10502 Rev. 5.1 > > HFS Utilities > Part No 98616-10503 Rev. 5.1 > > > Manual Examples Disc > Part No 98616-10504 Rev 5.1 > > > Anyone know what it is, and what machine it runs on? > > -tony > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:25:59 +0100 (BST) >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: What is an HP98616? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> >> 98616A Opt. 045 >> BASIC 5.1 >> >> -- >> >> >> HP BASIC verison 5.1 >> >> Should run on 200's and 300's > > I'd guessed that much :-) Is this a bootable system, or >does it run under > something else? I've noticed that these disks appear to >have LIF > filesystems on them. > > What does the Opt 045 mean? > > -tony > > > From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Sun Jul 24 15:28:00 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:28:00 -0500 Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507242037.j6OKb4xs004848@keith.ezwind.net> > Leakage and shorts went down dramatically in the 1950s, when > the tube makers started making the tubes in (mostly) clean > room environments, with better automation. Subminis, the > tubes that will-not-die, were made in real clean rooms. > > I do not know of any non-military computer system that used subminis. I used to have a handful of those submini tubes but I can't find one now. If anybody has a spare, even a dead one, that they could send us it would be nice to have one on display. Right now the only tube era parts we have are a core plane and an IBM tube circuit with a bunch of miniature tubes - mostly 9 pin. The rectifier had been replaced at some point with a solid state component that plugged in a 9-pin socket. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Mon Jul 25 03:18:55 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:18:55 -0500 Subject: hardware debugging - history repeats itself In-Reply-To: <000901c58f8a$14587f10$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <200507250828.j6P8S0Uh010823@keith.ezwind.net> Last time the air conditioner at out farm went out it turned out that fire ants had built a mound inside the control box on the compressor outside the house. ;) Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jack Rubin > Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 8:26 AM > To: fufu at flexusergroup.com; Classic Computer List > Subject: hardware debugging - history repeats itself > > Just wanted to share a success story - > > During the last Chicago heat wave, our air conditioning > stopped working. > Nothing, furnace (we have those up north) fan worked fine and > air was circulating, but no cooling at all. No response from > the compressor. Supply and control voltages all checked out > ok, thermostat worked, etc. > > Turned out to be an earwig (small insect) trapped in the > contacts of the compressor controller. Removed said insect, > cleaned up the contact points and we were cool. > > Shades of Grace Hopper and the Mark II moth! > > Jack > > > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jul 25 06:45:05 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:45:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: my speccy In-Reply-To: <1122286751.11852.16.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1122286751.11852.16.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <12572.195.212.29.67.1122291905.squirrel@195.212.29.67> > On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 03:39 -0700, Arron McLaughlin wrote: > The speccy was what got me started in computing. Amazing little machines > for the price really - the C64 was probably better (at least graphics- > wise) but more expensive, and the BBC B was a real killer, but probably > twice the price of a speccy. More than twice the price - IIRC the BBC Model B was ?399 and the ZX Spectrum 48K was ?175. I was listening to a thing on the radio a month or two back, where one of the people they were interviewing said that the ZX Spectrum was the whole reason for the massive computer games industry in Dundee. Why? Because that's where the Timex factory where they made them was. So Spectrums were very cheap, under the pub table. So everyone had one, and anyone with a bit of ability got the chance to write on a good, well-supported machine... Gordon. From cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co Mon Jul 25 11:52:33 2005 From: cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:52:33 -0400 Subject: A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing References: <42E4A38D.1BC26FD5@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <42E518D1.C845DE45@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Brent Hilpert wrote: > I don't know a lot about Foxboro, I believe they were a spin-off or startup > company in the 60s that were early entrants into the (then small and > state-of-the-art) area of computer-based real-time process-control for large > industrial plants. They are one of those names you don't run across much unless > you run in those circles. > Additional comments about Foxboro and their systems from those who may know > more appreciated. Foxboro was a british industrial instruments company with a very long history. Among other achievements, they were the first to offer a pneumatic process controller with proportional+integral action (pneumatic controllers in those days were on/off or at most proportional). It was called the "Stabilog", and it was introduced in 1930; it followed the introduction of the negative-feedback pneumatic amplifier designed by Clesson E. Mason (also at Foxboro) in 1929 to linearize the action of pneumatic-actuated flow-control valves. This started the era of pneumatic-based analog computation in process control equipment (on topic). I remember seeing a brochure from those days, trying to lure control practitioners to install "modern pneumatic process control equipment: imagine your plant with pneumatic instrumentation so you can control it with signals that move at the speed of sound" :-) . This may seem funny nowadays, but it was really this kind of technology that allowed the feasibility of _really big_ refineries, fertilizer plants and so on. Electronic controls in industrial settings were still a few decades from commercial success. The first instance of closed-loop control using a digital computer in an industrial setting supposedly happened at a Texaco refinery in Port Arthur in March 15, 1959, using an RW-300 computer (does anybode have a good reference on this?). carlos. -- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia From cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co Mon Jul 25 11:58:01 2005 From: cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 12:58:01 -0400 Subject: A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing References: <42E4A38D.1BC26FD5@cs.ubc.ca> <42E4F061.5080304@blackcube.org> Message-ID: <42E51A19.5EFE86C8@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> James Rice wrote: > > Foxboro is an old very large control and instrumentation company located > of all places, Foxboro, MA. Oh my; yes, why did my brain cells link Foxboro to the UK in my previous message? ... hmmm. carlos. -- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia From ljw-356 at ljw.me.uk Mon Jul 25 13:29:44 2005 From: ljw-356 at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:29:44 +0100 Subject: my speccy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1122316184.16616.6.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Sun, 2005-07-24 at 03:39 -0700, Arron McLaughlin wrote: > Are there any other New Zealanders here? I met Ethan Dicks a while ago > on his way through the country. Well, I'm here, but not there (ex Auckland). I don't recall any other NZers here, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong. Have fun with the Spectrum. You should be able to find some fellow enthusiasts - a friend of mine had quite a collection of Spectrum stuff until recently (microfloppies etc.) -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From nonyn at prodigy.net Tue Jul 26 14:49:44 2005 From: nonyn at prodigy.net (JOLYNN WOERNER) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Displaywriter Message-ID: <20050726194944.85733.qmail@web81510.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I was wondering if you ever got a Displaywriter? I have one with a printer and the paper feed rack.. it has 2 boxes of disks too.. Jo From jdavis at soupwizard.com Tue Jul 26 17:06:23 2005 From: jdavis at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:06:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Release Software to the Public Domain? In-Reply-To: <000801c5922b$e3950390$c901a8c0@flexpc> References: <42E6AE5B.F4AD7ED3@rain.org> <000801c5922b$e3950390$c901a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <50355.65.6.28.67.1122415583.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> On Tue, July 26, 2005 5:49 pm, Antonio Carlini said: > >>While I don't think it would make any difference, the >>executor of his estate is willing to sign a document >>stating that anything he wrote is now in the public >> domain. Question; what kind of document is available to do this? > > I'm sure GNU have one that they ask you to sign when you > turn over code to them. Perhaps that would do? IANAL, but the GNU license is not really public domain; it puts restrictions on how the code can be used (derivative works must release source, credit must be given, etc). I think the older term "Public Domain" is more like transfering the copyright from the author to the general public, with no restrictions (or warranty) on how it is used. Creative Commons has a public domain license, along with a place to store the content and publicize the license. It *might* not be for software, but it's a very informative page and does have the text of a public domain license: http://creativecommons.org/license/ Jeff From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 26 23:53:34 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ...still looking for MS-Fortran for ANY DOS puter In-Reply-To: <20050724182144.44723.qmail@web26406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050727045334.92047.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> > Ssssh... is this what are you looking for: Much obliged man, but in reality I was looking for something tre old, like version 1 or 2. I have MS COBOL 2.0 and something called COBAL for the TI Pro computer. I just can't get all that worked up over COBOL, but it might be fun to throw together a short program one of these days. You know, for fun :). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From info at syscob.com.au Wed Jul 27 01:10:32 2005 From: info at syscob.com.au (Syscob Pty.Ltd.) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:10:32 +1000 Subject: Atari Unix Message-ID: <000a01c59271$e5f70ca0$0400a8c0@monty> Hi there Curt My name is Michael from Melbourne Australia, a Musician that has always loved ataris for Midi work and still using mine today. I am not sure if I have the right person or Not, I am chasing a Curt that posted a Message on one of the Developer sites with regards to Atari UNIX Disk images " For those who own Atari TT030 workstations, I have finally gotten a hard disk with Atari's version of Unix System V on it running along with a diskette with setboot.prg utility that sets the nvram in the TT030's to recognize and boot from the Unix Hard Disk. If anyone is interested, I can make ghost images of the 300MB SCSI hard disk If you want a copy, I need a 300mb SCSI HD to Ghost the image to and you pay shipping to and from me. Curt If you are the person that did submit this back late last year? does your offer of the disk images still stand. Kind regards Michael Sims m_sims at iprimus.com.au " Home Email Address" From Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com Wed Jul 27 08:58:45 2005 From: Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com (Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:58:45 -0400 Subject: HPL manual request Message-ID: I was able to find HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update (09826-90040) on bitsavers website. I have HPL Operating Manual (98614-90010). Does anyone know if HPL Condensed Reference (98614-90020) is archived anywhere? Is there any other references available for HPL 2.1? Hutch From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jul 27 10:29:50 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:29:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: 'New' RL02 on the way - how to power up? In-Reply-To: <1de889f1de5db9.1de5db91de889f@direcway.com> References: <1de889f1de5db9.1de5db91de889f@direcway.com> Message-ID: <64298.195.212.29.83.1122478190.squirrel@195.212.29.83> > I have just purchased an RL02 and while waiting for it to arrive, I am > wondering what to do for cleaning and lubrication before power-up. I don't > know how long it's been sitting (indoors). I have downloaded the manual > from bitsavers. I know there has been some discussion on this list > recently but I think that was on the care and feeding of RK05's... > > Also, the seller tells me he can't get the pack out: > >>When I had the disk pack cover off, the release handle on the pack did >>not release the disks and I did not want to force it. Does the drive >>need to be powered on and is there a way to remove them without powering >>it on? You can't open the lid, unless you open a little hatch on the right-hand side and trip the catch by hand. As for removing the pack, you need to slide the slidey bit on the handle across and then pull it up to break the clamp's hold on the pack. You *can* just pull it straight off, but I wouldn't recommend it... Gordon. From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Wed Jul 27 21:07:54 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:07:54 -0400 Subject: DR DOS 5.0 In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C369@minerva.headoffic e.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C369@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <6.2.5.1.2.20050727215929.033c18b0@boff-net.dhs.org> Actually, it WAS called DR DOS as it used to be owned by Caldera until 2003 (which was at one time part of Novell). It is now owned by SCO and, like most things SCO gets involved with, they take ownership, drive it into the ground and then abandon it like the group of a--holes they are. Last official DR DOS release was 7.03 by Caldera. SCO just wanted some of the pieces of it so they can make more of the "we have rights" B.S. claims that they make. SCO did absolutely nothing with it once it was purchased from Caldera. There are "unofficial" releases of DR DOS 7.04 and 7.05. They are part of Partition Magic, Western Digital, Quantum/Maxtor and Seagate/OnTrack Diagnostics. 7.03 would be the last and easiest to obtain. Versions .04 and .05 have pseudo-DOS FAT32 support, but it breaks certain basic DOS functionality and was actually customized from the .03 version for obvious specific purposes (drives larger than 80/120GB, etc). -John Boffemmyer IV At 09:55 PM 7/27/2005, you wrote: >I think its now called Caldera DOS - try Googling it > > > >++++++++++ >Kevin Parker >Web Services Consultant >WorkCover Corporation > >p: 08 8233 2548 >m: 0418 806 166 >e: kparker at workcover.com >w: www.workcover.com > >++++++++++ > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Diego Rodriguez >Sent: Monday, 25 July 2005 4:26 AM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: DR DOS 5.0 > >Anybody knows something about its history ?? >I have installation disks with files dated >6/1990 and also a boot disk with some files >dated in 2/1991, I know that several bug fixing >versions exist, but Which is the last ?? > >I remembered it when I was reading all that >Windows Vista (LongHorn) stuff. Seems that M$ is >using 'vaporware' again to distract attention >from Intel Mac OS X much like they did with MS-DOS 5.0 and DR DOS 5.0. > > > > > >______________________________________________ >Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! >Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad >http://correo.yahoo.es > >************************************************************************ >This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may >contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality >and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you >are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. > >Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the >WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have >been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files >transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. > >If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender >immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any >copies. >************************************************************************ > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: 7/27/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: 7/27/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: 7/27/2005 From news at computercollector.com Thu Jul 28 11:23:53 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:23:53 -0400 Subject: Interex shuts down In-Reply-To: <200507211917.j6LJHSIP069372@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200507281629.j6SGTGBE054668@keith.ezwind.net> Interex.org -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Director Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 3:08 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' Subject: RE: Interex shuts down Where is the site? Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Nadeau > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 6:47 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Interex shuts down > > The HP user group, Interex, has abruptly ceased operations due to > financial difficulties. The site is still up, and the publicly > accessible information is still there, but the publications have been > terminated. Interex has been around for 31 years, and has information > and software archives. > Thought I'd mention it here in case anyone wanted to attempt a rescue > of those archives. > > --Mike > > > From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 11:22:31 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:22:31 +0100 Subject: DR DOS 5.0 In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C369@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C369@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <575131af0507280922502bedaa@mail.gmail.com> On 7/28/05, Parker, Kevin wrote: > I think its now called Caldera DOS - try Googling it It changed a LOT more than that. I did mention the Wikipedia article for a reason! I've described it all there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-DOS DR-DOS was DR's version. Released versions went from 3.41 -> 5 -> 6. Then it was sold to Novell. Became Novell DOS 7. Then was sold to Caldera. Became Caldera OpenDOS 7. Then Caldera span off its thin client division as Lineo, who renamed it DR-DOS again. It was open sourced as version 7.01 and 7.02 but not later. 7.03 is free for non-commercial use. http://drdos.org There's a project to enhance the open source version to feature parity and more, the DR-DOS Enhancement Project. http://www.drdosprojects.de/ The management of Lineo set up a new company, DeviceLogic. They're offering DR-DOS 8 now. http://www.drdos.com/ -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jul 28 11:32:37 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:32:37 +0200 Subject: OT: WhatTheHack Message-ID: <20050728183237.43ac67c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. Is someone else attending http://www.whatthehack.org/ ? I am in the big BSD tent (field F), in front of the SGI O2 beside the NetBSD posters and devotionalia. http://wiki.whatthehack.org/index.php/BSD_Village -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 28 11:42:00 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ImageDisk Update (was TeleDisk Replacement) Message-ID: <200507281642.JAA08455@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Dave I have the need to tell the transfer program to ignore the first track/side 0 and only copy the remaining tracks. This is from an image that has fill for the first track. The reason for this is that the first track is FM and my controller does not support FM. The first track only contains some fixed information that is always the same from disk to disk. I format the disk on a working target machine and then use the PC to update the remaining tracks with the new image. I have a program that I use that does this but I'm also looking for a program to handle different sized disk with the same issue ( 96tpi w/ MFM ). Dwight >From: "Dave Dunfield" > >I've been working away at my ImageDisk utility, and have made a number >of fixes, including some corrections to the sides/stepping detect logic >which failed to properly detect some mixed density disks. > >I have added several new features, including improvements to the >"Align/Test" function, and the ability to translate the data rates >(This lets you do things like recreate DD disks read on DD drives on HD >drives and vice-versa). > >This evening I finally wired up a cable to connect a double-sided 8" >drive to my PC, and was very pleased to see that I was able to backup and >restore several mixed density 8" disks with no problems - even a double >backup and restore (backup of backup then restore) still matched the >original and booted correctly. > >I have also created a first cut at my "Analyze/Merge" utility, this is >a companion utility which: > > - Provides a detailed report of the track/sector layout and data formats > occuring in the diskette image. > > - Can perform a logical sector by sector compare of two disk images, even > if the binary layout is not exactly the same (usually due to different > comment or problems detecting interleave). > > - Can merge two images into one, allowing you to take advantage of the fact > that some PC's may read different sectors than others (one of my machines > refuses to read the first sector on Cromemco disks while a second machine > fails to read the last sector) - and create a complete image by merging > them. > >It's late and I'm going to bed - in the morning, I will transmit the updated >software to the people who already requested and received the first version (If >you don't want to receive any more updates, please let me know). If anyone else >wants to join in the fun, please drop me a line and I'll add you to my list. > >Regards, >Dave >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jul 28 12:42:54 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: <000a01c59271$e5f70ca0$0400a8c0@monty> from "Syscob Pty.Ltd." at Jul 27, 2005 04:10:32 PM Message-ID: <200507281742.j6SHgsID004127@onyx.spiritone.com> > " For those who own Atari TT030 workstations, I have finally gotten a > hard disk with Atari's version of Unix System V on it running along with a Out of curiousity, what does running Atari's version of Unix on the TT030 get you? How is it better than running say NetBSD. Not that I really care to run Unix in 4MB again (at least I think that's what my TT030 has). Zane From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jul 28 12:45:06 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:45:06 -0400 Subject: TG43 signal and the Nec 765 Message-ID: <0IKC00K0NMLPCICD@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TG43 signal and the Nec 765 > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:03:50 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >>>Can you elaborate.? >> >>One of the things done when writing to a Floppy [it's done with all >>FDC chips if it's done at all!] is to deliberately twook the bit >>timing based on the bit pattern. >>... >>Hope this helps. > >I guess I should have been more clear - I understand Precomp, but >I had the impression from your original message that some drives may >expect special charactistics of the TG43 signals - I gather that >"normal operation" (asserting it from Cylinder 44 on during writes) >is all that is necessary? - let the drive worry about what to do, >just provide the signal. > Yes, either the drive needs it or the pin is uncommited on the drive. > >>>No, it for my ImageDisk utility, which is a replacement for >>>TeleDisk with a documented image file format - I want to provide >>>support for 8" drives that need TG43. >> >>Ok, then I take it that this is in a PC FDC that is based on the >>765 core? >> >>I ask as a way to point out that features and functions that the >>base 765 chip have as implemented on an something like a Disk1A >>are very differnt in a PC. Largely the PC design truncates the >>interface from the 765 to something simpler abd often far less >>flexible. Some of the really late chips (post 37C65) do not >>even fully implement the full complment of interface signals >>and may only have limited access to things like precomp timing >>or worse those functions are "wired" by the chips designer to fit >>their view of what floppies are (IE: antique = 8" floppy, >>unsupported). > >Believe me, I am aware of the limitations of the PC design, and >the rudeness of some of the later designs... fortunately a lot of >the guys here have older machines :-) ;) Helps to be on the same page. I really define 765 based FDCs into groups and there are about 4 generations and they are distinct both in the parts used and the character of the part. I keep an old ISA fossel that was ture full capability with my mods added. It can do all and any mode the FDC knows. >I'm creating a replacement for Teledisk because: > > - I need to reliably backup and restore diskette images, > and to post them for download (along with the tools to > recreate them). > > - Sydex no longer supports TeleDisk, and is actively trying to > get it removed from availability. > > - TeleDisk does not document the image file format, which > makes it very difficult to explore other means of recreating > the image if TeleDisk doesn't succeed. > >I am also creating systems to backup and restore images of disks >which are not compatible with the PC controller, including several >systems which work by serial transfer with the original host. >This is just another piece in the puzzle. No argement here. It's needed and it has to be with more current capability to allow a wider range of users/contributors. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jul 28 12:48:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:48:20 -0400 Subject: TG43 signal and the Nec 765 Message-ID: <0IKC004O7MR3GPMB@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TG43 signal and the Nec 765 > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:15:22 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>> No, it for my ImageDisk utility, which is a replacement for >>> TeleDisk with a documented image file format - I want to provide >>> support for 8" drives that need TG43. >> >>What platforms does it work on? (I could certainly use something for >>Linux which was able to do as much as possible with the crappy PC >>FDC... :-) >> >>Presumably DOS-only? (Was there ever even a teledisk for Windows?) > >Yes, it runs under DOS. I need access to the "bare metal" without >interference ... I don't think there was ever a TeleDisk for winblows, >and I'm nut sure it would be feasable. For up to win98se it's possible to get at the metal. For NT, Win2000 and XP forget about it. Linux is not happy with people palying with raw metal too but it does provide raw drivers. Dos is easy and actually a good choice. It's easily understood and there are already tools and com compatbility with many of the uglier versions of winders. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 28 12:25:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:25:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP98780 monitor graphics PCB Message-ID: Does anyone here have an HP98780 (enhanced mono monitor for the HP9845B) easily to hand, and if so, could they do a little electrical test on one of the PCBs : Remove the top cover (4 screws), the screening cover under it (4 more screws). the 2 board hold-down strips (3 screws each), and the 2 screws holding the heatsink pillars from the rightmost board to the right side panel (directions given with the screen towards you). Pull this board out. When putting it back, put a little silicone grease on the ends of the pillars. In my monitor it's a 98780-66552 Rev B, I am particularly interested if you have that version... Anyway, the test : Check for continuity between pin 7 of U53 (this is a 74LS157 mux chip) and pin 2 of U55 (a 4116 or 4816 DRAM). The reason is that on my board, these 2 pins are not conencted, although the other outputs of that mux -- and of 3 other similar mux chips -- do go to the DIn pins of the RAMs. The 'missing' one would be bit 6 (of a 16 bit word), and I can't for the life of me think of a good reason why it should be different. I wonder if I have a cracked trace in the board somewhere (this is a multi-layer board so I can't check by eye). Thanks in advance -tony From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 28 12:42:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QuantumLink In-Reply-To: <42E862C5.6050506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jul 2005, Jim Brain wrote: > I'm not sure how far afield Classic Computers goes, but I am interested > in anyone here who used, worked on, or knew about the QuantumLink > service for the Commodore 64/128 machines. > > With help from someone who's spent lots of time deciphering the QLink > protocol, I am busy re-implementing the server. So far, the stock QLink > disk will login and show the main page, you can select any of the 7 > "message" areas and the screen will show menus for each area, and I am > now working on implementing the "People Connection" chat system. Wow, cool restoration project!! > By no means I have made even a dent in all of the functionality of the > system (games, file downloads, etc.), but it is impressive to see the > old disks and serviuce running again. Currently, I have the basic chat > (join, leave, say) working for multiple users. > > Sadly, I never used the original system, so I am lost as to how exactly > things progressed from screen to screen (where did you change you screen > name, for example), so I'm eager to hear from others. Did you ever try contacting former employees to see if maybe someone somewhere preserved the code? I know at least one former employee (Doug Coward) but he left before they became AOL. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 28 12:43:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QuantumLink In-Reply-To: <50492.68.155.26.63.1122527953.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Jeff Davis wrote: > I have some baubles (qlink keychain, install disks); I don't think anyone kept > backup tapes of the server software, since it ran on Stratus minis, not > exactly something people had in their basements. Plus it was company > confidential, etc. Someone somewhere has to have backup tapes laying about. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 28 12:50:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: <1h01r50.100epdi1obgk5kM%tlindner@watermarkpress.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, tim lindner wrote: > tim lindner wrote: > > > This certiantly looks like the front end of an electronic typesetter. > > THAT DOES NOT COMPUTE -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 28 13:04:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <42E51A19.5EFE86C8@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > James Rice wrote: > > > > Foxboro is an old very large control and instrumentation company located > > of all places, Foxboro, MA. > > Oh my; yes, why did my brain cells link Foxboro to the UK in my previous > message? ... hmmm. But in the very least, didn't Foxboro have an office in Foxboro, MA? Was that just coincidence? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 13:19:31 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:19:31 -0500 Subject: 'New' RL02 on the way - how to power up? In-Reply-To: <64298.195.212.29.83.1122478190.squirrel@195.212.29.83> References: <1de889f1de5db9.1de5db91de889f@direcway.com> <64298.195.212.29.83.1122478190.squirrel@195.212.29.83> Message-ID: On 7/27/05, gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: > You can't open the lid, unless you open a little hatch on the right-hand > side and trip the catch by hand. If that unit has one. The little hatch does not appear on all drives. For those units that need opening (to dismount a pack, typically) that one _can't_ pop the hatch then pop the lid latch, I find it's possible to remove the 4 screws on the rear deck (the fixed part of the top surface), then carefully lift up and wiggle on things until it's possible to get the lid open. It's hard to describe how to do it exactly (especially since I don't have a drive in front of me), but if you just remember not to force anything, you shouldn't break anything. > As for removing the pack, you need to slide the slidey bit on the handle > across and then pull it up to break the clamp's hold on the pack. Naturally. Of course, I have seen 3rd-party packs that are different (just lift?) but a real RL02K does need to have the thumb slider engaged when lifting the handle to cause the pack to release the spindle. > You *can* just pull it straight off, but I wouldn't recommend it... Ooh... never tried that (and never would try it!) -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 28 12:33:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:33:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC Rainbow disks - help In-Reply-To: <20050724012721.20810.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jul 23, 5 06:27:21 pm Message-ID: > > I just acquired a Rainbow with ~10 boxes of disks. > Most are for DOS it seems, though some for cpm/86. > Could someone explain the differences between the > types of media meant to run on this puter, whether it > has to do with os, or physical properties (soft > sectored, hard sectored, RX50...). I also have access The RX50 drive (used in the Rainbow, and for that matter the Pro) is a 80 cylinder single-sided drive. The Rainbow (and Pro) have soft-sectored double-density controllers, and store about 360K on each disk. These parameters are independant of the OS used. -tony From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Thu Jul 28 13:50:10 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:50:10 -0400 Subject: QuantumLink Message-ID: Is there a Stratus simulator out there? Maybe this is another project someone can work on for SIMH. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 1:43 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: QuantumLink On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Jeff Davis wrote: > I have some baubles (qlink keychain, install disks); I don't think anyone kept > backup tapes of the server software, since it ran on Stratus minis, not > exactly something people had in their basements. Plus it was company > confidential, etc. Someone somewhere has to have backup tapes laying about. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Jul 28 13:52:57 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:52:57 -0400 Subject: If yer lookin' for CP/M... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050728144501.03a67ab0@mail.30below.com> Stumbling across some of the links previously provided for the different permutations of DR-DOS, I found this: ftp://ftp.fsn.hu/pub/OpenDOS/cpm2.2/ Caldera at one point acquired some form of CP/M, and this appears to be a CP/M 2.2 for a Z80, if the filenames are any indication. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 28 13:58:57 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:58:57 -0700 Subject: If yer lookin' for CP/M... Message-ID: <34d4d054ebef102f7500d5dcfe52322a@bitsavers.org> Stumbling across some of the links previously provided for the different permutations of DR-DOS, I found this: ftp://ftp.fsn.hu/pub/OpenDOS/cpm2.2/ Caldera at one point acquired some form of CP/M, and this appears to be a CP/M 2.2 for a Z80, if the filenames are any indication. -- Gaby should have this, and MUCH MUCH more. http://www.gaby.de/ecpm.htm From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 28 14:15:05 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:15:05 +0000 Subject: DEC Rainbow disks - help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1122578105.17770.82.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 18:33 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I just acquired a Rainbow with ~10 boxes of disks. > > Most are for DOS it seems, though some for cpm/86. > > Could someone explain the differences between the > > types of media meant to run on this puter, whether it > > has to do with os, or physical properties (soft > > sectored, hard sectored, RX50...). I also have access > > The RX50 drive (used in the Rainbow, and for that matter the Pro) is a 80 > cylinder single-sided drive. The Rainbow (and Pro) have soft-sectored > double-density controllers, and store about 360K on each disk. > > These parameters are independant of the OS used. Further to that... If I'm remembering right, you're not supposed to use floppies with hub- rings on the Rainbow drives as it tends to damage the drive (and at the very least means it'll no longer read disks without hub rings properly) cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 14:20:43 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:20:43 +0100 Subject: DR DOS 5.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.1.2.20050727215929.033c18b0@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C369@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <6.2.5.1.2.20050727215929.033c18b0@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <575131af05072812201a74a264@mail.gmail.com> On 7/28/05, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Actually, it WAS called DR DOS as it used to be > owned by Caldera until 2003 (which was at one > time part of Novell). It is now owned by SCO While I don't disagree with your comments about SCO, you're off beam on the history of DR-DOS. Lineo got it before 2000 -- it's not been Caldera/SCO property for a *long* time and you've missed 2 intermediate name changes. > There are > "unofficial" releases of DR DOS 7.04 and 7.05. > They are part of Partition Magic, Western > Digital, Quantum/Maxtor and Seagate/OnTrack > Diagnostics. True, but they were official, from Lineo. They don't run DOS apps well, though -- it's been tried. -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Thu Jul 28 14:23:48 2005 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:23:48 -0700 Subject: Apple? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1h0et21.17akpoz1nbpriuM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > THAT DOES NOT COMPUTE Check thhe age of my email. The link worked when I sent it. :) -- tim lindner tlindner at ix.netcom.com Bright From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jul 28 14:24:29 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:24:29 -0400 Subject: DEC Rainbow disks - help References: <20050724012721.20810.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <17129.12525.1164.895911@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> I just acquired a Rainbow with ~10 boxes of disks. Most are for >> DOS it seems, though some for cpm/86. Could someone explain the >> differences between the types of media meant to run on this puter, >> whether it has to do with os, or physical properties (soft >> sectored, hard sectored, RX50...). I also have access Tony> The RX50 drive (used in the Rainbow, and for that matter the Tony> Pro) is a 80 cylinder single-sided drive. The Rainbow (and Pro) Tony> have soft-sectored double-density controllers, and store about Tony> 360K on each disk. Tony> These parameters are independant of the OS used. That makes it fairly tricky to read, because 10 sectors per track is not a normal PC floppy mode. It can be done in DOS (int13 level I/O) and in Linux (by telling the driver to use nonstandard format parameters). I have all that in the "rstsflx" utility for reading/writing RSTS file systems; I can post selected bits if that's of interest. The other confusing point is the addressing: logical block 0 is at the start of track 1, the sectors are 2:1 interleaved, and physical track 0 holds the LAST 10 logical sectors... paul From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 14:26:02 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:26:02 +0100 Subject: my speccy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0507281226407134ab@mail.gmail.com> On 7/24/05, Arron McLaughlin wrote: > Yesterday I just finished piecing together two dead spectrums into one > working unit. I had a few problems with screen quality so I replaced > the modulator with a little composite circuit. Better quality, though > flicker still remains.Might add a power switch also. This has been my > first foray into Sinclair machines. There's a lot going on in the Sinclair world still. Google for Sinclair Spectrum and be amazed! There's a project to build an updated-model Speccy, the Spectrum SE, which brings together the best features of the 48, the 128 and the Timex Sinclair 2068. There are new ROMs, some to fix bugs, some to add new features. There's new software & hardware development. I particularly like the internal CompactFlash interface - one on a 48K with a cheap 128MB card can hold every Speccy game ever written. It's a fun environment still! Check out World of Spectrum, Planet Sinclair and ZXF Magazine for starters, and Usenet news:comp.sys.sinclair -- there's an active community. -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Thu Jul 28 14:32:49 2005 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:32:49 -0400 Subject: my speccy In-Reply-To: <1122316184.16616.6.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <1122316184.16616.6.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: On Jul 25, 2005, at 2:29 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > Well, I'm here, but not there (ex Auckland). I don't recall any other > NZers here, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong. I'm here, but not there too... I'm in the US (RI). From dieymir at yahoo.es Thu Jul 28 14:35:26 2005 From: dieymir at yahoo.es (Diego Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:35:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 23, Issue 75 In-Reply-To: <200507280243.j6S2gnKt039673@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050728193526.61183.qmail@web26402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:31:21 +0100 > From: Liam Proven > Subject: Re: DR DOS 5.0 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <575131af05072711315001db33 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 7/24/05, Diego Rodriguez wrote: > > Anybody knows something about its history ?? > > I have installation disks with files dated 6/1990 and also a boot > disk > > with some files dated in 2/1991, I know that several bug fixing > > versions exist, but Which is the last ?? > > > > I remembered it when I was reading all that Windows Vista > (LongHorn) > > stuff. Seems that M$ is using 'vaporware' again to distract > attention > > from Intel Mac OS X much like they did with MS-DOS 5.0 and DR DOS > 5.0. > > A bit, but not much about internal versions and so on. I've > contributed a fair bit to the Wikipedia article on it - that might be > a good place to look and discuss it. > I also have a Spanish version dated 12/90, some utils have been updated, e.g. - MEM (1.00 -> 1.01) now displays HMA contents. - CHKDSK (6.14 -> 6.16) ?? - EMM386.SYS (1.2 -> 1.21) Windows 3.0 works in extended mode. ... probably some more, but I didn't check all of them. ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From MGemeny at pgcps.org Thu Jul 28 14:35:04 2005 From: MGemeny at pgcps.org (Mike Gemeny) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:35:04 -0400 Subject: Interex closing down. Message-ID: <510C9812D967984D99CEDB648A43364603B63F@pgcps2kex6.pgcps.org> I was just looking at Interex and found some stuff left at the following: ftp://ftp.interex.org I am not sure what it is, but it looks like RTE stuff. I just thought someone might want to archive it. Mike Gemeny From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 28 13:11:28 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:11:28 -0400 Subject: HPL manual request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050728141128.00812b10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:58 AM 7/27/05 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >I was able to find HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update >(09826-90040) on bitsavers website. I have HPL Operating Manual >(98614-90010). Does anyone know if HPL Condensed Reference (98614-90020) >is archived anywhere? Is there any other references available for HPL 2.1? > >Hutch I just finished packing a BUNCH of HP manuals and shipping them to Al to be scanned and archived. In the pile are several HPL manuals, a manual for BTL (Board Test Language, a variation of HPL that was used on the 3060 circuit card test station) and a photocopy of the HPL Condensed Reference Manual. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 28 15:19:57 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:19:57 -0400 Subject: ...still looking for MS-Fortran for ANY DOS puter In-Reply-To: <20050727045334.92047.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050724182144.44723.qmail@web26406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050728161957.00802bf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Do you just want copies of the files or are you looking for the disks and manuals? I have MS Fortran V1 and Professional (RM?) Fortran V1 for the IBM PC. They're not for sale but I can copy the disks. Also have MS Cobol v1 and v1 of most other IBM PC langagues. Joe At 09:53 PM 7/26/05 -0700, you wrote: >> Ssssh... is this what are you looking for: > >Much obliged man, but in reality I was looking for >something tre old, like version 1 or 2. I have MS >COBOL 2.0 and something called COBAL for the TI Pro >computer. I just can't get all that worked up over >COBOL, but it might be fun to throw together a short >program one of these days. You know, for fun :). > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jul 28 16:08:39 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:08:39 -0400 Subject: DEC Rainbow disks - help Message-ID: <0IKC001GCW0WG4HB@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DEC Rainbow disks - help > From: Paul Koning > Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:24:29 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > >> I just acquired a Rainbow with ~10 boxes of disks. Most are for > >> DOS it seems, though some for cpm/86. Could someone explain the > >> differences between the types of media meant to run on this puter, > >> whether it has to do with os, or physical properties (soft > >> sectored, hard sectored, RX50...). I also have access > > Tony> The RX50 drive (used in the Rainbow, and for that matter the > Tony> Pro) is a 80 cylinder single-sided drive. The Rainbow (and Pro) > Tony> have soft-sectored double-density controllers, and store about > Tony> 360K on each disk. > > Tony> These parameters are independant of the OS used. > >That makes it fairly tricky to read, because 10 sectors per track is >not a normal PC floppy mode. It can be done in DOS (int13 level I/O) I'd add tht at the time of the Rainbow and pro 80track drives were not common to PCs yet. >and in Linux (by telling the driver to use nonstandard format >parameters). I have all that in the "rstsflx" utility for >reading/writing RSTS file systems; I can post selected bits if that's >of interest. > >The other confusing point is the addressing: logical block 0 is at the >start of track 1, the sectors are 2:1 interleaved, and physical track >0 holds the LAST 10 logical sectors... ???? CP/M disks nominally start logical block 0 after system tracks. Dos disk are different and I never paid much attention to them. POS for the PRO was same media but file allocation was different again from CP/M or DOS [or RT11 and VMS as well] on RX50. Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 28 16:16:52 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:16:52 +0000 Subject: my speccy In-Reply-To: <575131af0507281226407134ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0507281226407134ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1122585412.17753.133.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 20:26 +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > On 7/24/05, Arron McLaughlin wrote: > > > Yesterday I just finished piecing together two dead spectrums into one > > working unit. I had a few problems with screen quality so I replaced > > the modulator with a little composite circuit. Better quality, though > > flicker still remains.Might add a power switch also. This has been my > > first foray into Sinclair machines. > > There's a lot going on in the Sinclair world still. Google for > Sinclair Spectrum and be amazed! I remember looking at usenet about a year ago (comp.sys.sinclair probably) and was amazed at how active the group still seemed to be. Lots of the old 8-bitters here still seem to have a dedicated following coming up with new projects; the Acorn BBC micro, Sinclair and C64 are still popular machines. Apple systems seem to take a back seat as they never were quite so popular, same with CBM's PET systems. Lots of discussion over on the BBC micro mailing list at present about building a gateway between Acorn's Econet network and modern Ethernet, which could allow some pretty cool things to be done from a beeb... Nice to see people still doing cool stuff on these machines :-) cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 16:18:52 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:18:52 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink In-Reply-To: References: <42E862C5.6050506@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 7/28/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Did you ever try contacting former employees to see if maybe someone > somewhere preserved the code? I know at least one former employee (Doug > Coward) but he left before they became AOL. I started at AOL (CompuServe) long after Qlink was gone. I don't remember if any of the old code was in the CVS repository, but I also never went digging too deeply for fear of repercussions, especially not after asking a few of the old-timers about what happened to the old 36-bit games, and getting a really stern query about what "business use" I had in mind. :-/ -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 16:19:32 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:19:32 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/28/05, Cini, Richard wrote: > > Is there a Stratus simulator out there? Maybe this is another project > someone can work on for SIMH. As someone who was paid to move things _off_ of Stratus, I have one word to that idea... Ewwww! -ethan From dhbarr at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 16:24:30 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:24:30 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3B2's available In-Reply-To: <002301c59206$6de5e850$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <002301c59206$6de5e850$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On 7/26/05, Jay West wrote: > I saw a stash of 3 or so AT&T 3B2 systems. Don't know the exact model, but > they are a common one I've seen before. They are a metal white case that > normally sits on a desktop. Approximate dimensions are 17" wide, 24" deep, > and 17" tall. > > The scrap dealer said I could have 'em for $35 each. They are not in mint > cosmetic shape, one case appears a bit mangled. I have no clue what (if any) > cards or drives are inside them. If you end up taking these and need some documentation, let me know; I recently obtained 40-ish books for a 3b2 that is similar to the model listed here. http://dhbarr.freeshell.org/booklist.html I know, it's not w3c compliant, and ugly as can be. I just whipped it up in OpenOffice one day and mashed the save-as-ugly-html button. -dhbarr. From dhbarr at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 16:24:30 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:24:30 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3B2's available In-Reply-To: <002301c59206$6de5e850$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <002301c59206$6de5e850$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On 7/26/05, Jay West wrote: > I saw a stash of 3 or so AT&T 3B2 systems. Don't know the exact model, but > they are a common one I've seen before. They are a metal white case that > normally sits on a desktop. Approximate dimensions are 17" wide, 24" deep, > and 17" tall. > > The scrap dealer said I could have 'em for $35 each. They are not in mint > cosmetic shape, one case appears a bit mangled. I have no clue what (if any) > cards or drives are inside them. If you end up taking these and need some documentation, let me know; I recently obtained 40-ish books for a 3b2 that is similar to the model listed here. http://dhbarr.freeshell.org/booklist.html I know, it's not w3c compliant, and ugly as can be. I just whipped it up in OpenOffice one day and mashed the save-as-ugly-html button. -dhbarr. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jul 28 16:42:48 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:42:48 -0400 Subject: DEC Rainbow disks - help References: <0IKC001GCW0WG4HB@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <17129.20824.771983.236746@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: >> The other confusing point is the addressing: logical block 0 is at >> the start of track 1, the sectors are 2:1 interleaved, and >> physical track 0 holds the LAST 10 logical sectors... Allison> ???? CP/M disks nominally start logical block 0 after Allison> system tracks. Dos disk are different and I never paid much Allison> attention to them. POS for the PRO was same media but file Allison> allocation was different again from CP/M or DOS [or RT11 and Allison> VMS as well] on RX50. I'm not talking about the file system, I'm talking about block numbering -- the linear block numbers (0 to 799) which sit underneath the file systems. All the DEC PDP11 and VAX OSs use linear block addressing; the sector/track/cylinder structure of the drives exists below the file system only, and is mapped to LBA by the disk device driver. For example, on all disks, LBA 0 is the boot block. Ok, so where physically is LBA 0? On most disks it is cyl 0 track 0 sec 0. But not on the RX50; there it is cyl 1 track 0 sec 0. So what LBA lives on cyl 0 track 0 sec 0? Answer: I'm getting too confused in the arithmetic, but it's an LBA in the range 790 to 799. With the MSCP controllers used on most PDP11s and VAXen, this cruft is in the controller microcode. In the PRO, it lives in the OS (in the RX50 driver). Quuoting from the driver I wrote for RSTS: ;+ ; Read/Write requests ; Compute the physical disk address and issue the I/O ;- 70$: MOV R0,R5 ;;Save Queue root pointer ;002 CLR R0 ;;High order LBN is zero ;002 MOV DSQPDA(R4),R1 ;;Get LSB of starting LBN DIV #10.,R0 ;; Divide for: R0=track, R1=sector (0-9.) CMP #4,R1 ;; Set C=1 (BLO=BCS) for 5 <= sector <= 9. ROL R1 ;; Sector * 2 (+1 if C set) = [2:1] interleave ADD R0,R1 ;; Adjust for a 3 sector skew between ADD R0,R1 ;; tracks by adding track *2. (R1/10. below) INC R0 ;; Bump track number ;002 CMP #80.,R0 ;; Valid track? ;002 BHI 80$ ;; Yes, and not last (C = 0) ;002 BEQ 75$ ;; Yes, last one ;004 MOV #DQS$DZ,R0 ;; Get queue root pointer ;004 SETERR PRVIOL,DSQERR(R4) ;; Error = illegal disk address ;004 JMP DZDONE ;; and exit with error ;004 75$: ADD #-80.,R0 ;; Last, so adjust to track 0 (C for side 2) 80$: So there you have the mapping in all its horrific glory... paul From cmurray at eagle.ca Thu Jul 28 17:53:41 2005 From: cmurray at eagle.ca (Cmurray) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:53:41 -0500 Subject: hardware bebugging...history repeating itself so to speak!!! Message-ID: <200507282153.j6SLrfTC033563@inferno.eagle.ca> This incident reminds me of the debugging situation I had to do in Botswana some 23 yrs. ago. I had rigged up an air-conditioner that was controlled by a microcontroller, a novelty at that time. The temperature got so hot and the humidity so low that the microprocessor, an 8080, just wouldn't run right. I solved the problem by circulating water over the enclosed unit. Liquid-cooling so to speak! Computing forever; forever computing. Murray :) Message: 8 Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:18:55 -0500 From: "Director" Subject: RE: hardware debugging - history repeats itself To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" Message-ID: <200507250828.j6P8S0Uh010823 at keith.ezwind.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Last time the air conditioner at out farm went out it turned out that fire ants had built a mound inside the control box on the compressor outside the house. ;) Gil From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Thu Jul 28 17:11:18 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:11:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: QuantumLink In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50631.68.155.21.7.1122588678.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> On Thu, July 28, 2005 5:19 pm, Ethan Dicks said: > On 7/28/05, Cini, Richard wrote: >> >> Is there a Stratus simulator out there? Maybe this is another project >> someone can work on for SIMH. > > As someone who was paid to move things _off_ of Stratus, I have one > word to that idea... > > Ewwww! > > -ethan Hey, *my* stratus code (stock quote system) wasn't bad (at least when I left it). PL/1 isn't *too* different than C, but way more wordy. You can still get in there and fiddle with the bits, no matter what a variable was declared as. Stratus VOS definitely isn't Unix, though. Jeff From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jul 28 17:30:43 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:30:43 -0400 Subject: DEC Rainbow disks - help Message-ID: <0IKC00AIVZTNNRC0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DEC Rainbow disks - help > From: Paul Koning > Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:42:48 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: > > >> The other confusing point is the addressing: logical block 0 is at > >> the start of track 1, the sectors are 2:1 interleaved, and > >> physical track 0 holds the LAST 10 logical sectors... > > Allison> ???? CP/M disks nominally start logical block 0 after > Allison> system tracks. Dos disk are different and I never paid much > Allison> attention to them. POS for the PRO was same media but file > Allison> allocation was different again from CP/M or DOS [or RT11 and > Allison> VMS as well] on RX50. > >I'm not talking about the file system, I'm talking about block >numbering -- the linear block numbers (0 to 799) which sit underneath >the file systems. All the DEC PDP11 and VAX OSs use linear block >addressing; the sector/track/cylinder structure of the drives exists >below the file system only, and is mapped to LBA by the disk device >driver. > >For example, on all disks, LBA 0 is the boot block. > >Ok, so where physically is LBA 0? On most disks it is cyl 0 track 0 >sec 0. But not on the RX50; there it is cyl 1 track 0 sec 0. > >So what LBA lives on cyl 0 track 0 sec 0? Answer: I'm getting too >confused in the arithmetic, but it's an LBA in the range 790 to 799. snipped... OK, that applies to NON CP/M and DOS disks and I can see how it would be a PITA to create DOS or CP/M media from other DEC systems. Having done it in the past those memory bits were lost. ;) Mostly due to trying to do the reverse (DEC OSs from CP/M hardware). I see no other impact to the Rainbow from the RX50. Allison From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 28 17:52:18 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interex closing down. Message-ID: <20050728225218.28DA717F3B2@bitsavers.org> > I am not sure what it is, but it looks like RTE stuff. appears to be RTE contributed software library stuff in rtecsl From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Jul 28 18:21:47 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:21:47 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20050728021609.A758373029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050728021609.A758373029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <42E9688B.6000203@compsys.to> >Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Jerome H. Fine once stated: > > >>By the way, are there any standard algorithms for the >>4 basic operations (add, subtract, multiply and divide) >>for 128 bit numbers which are composed of 8 * 16 bit >>words? As per your suggestion, I would probably use: >>CHARACTER * 16 ARRAY ( nnn ) >> >What language? In assembly addition and subtraction are pretty trivial if >you have a carry bit you can use (not all RISC based CPUs have a carry bit). >Just make sure you keep track of endian issues (given an array A[n] is A[0] >the Most Significant or Least Significant word?). >[Snip] > Jerome Fine replies: While the logic will probably be in FORTRAN 77 under RT-11 on an emulated PDP-11, I might actually check that it all works on a real PDP-11. However, since FORTRAN 77 is rather nasty using more than 32 bit integers, I will probably code the routines in MACRO-11 for 64/128 bit add and compare after I first write the program for 32 bit integers which can calculate up to 2 billion. As for endian issues, I can define the most significant word to be at either end, but I tend to think that I will place the most significant at the high end of the word since this allows FORTRAN 77 to use octal to output the value correctly with 64 bit floating point values. After that, if the run times are reasonable, I can extend the code to allow 64 bits - although I am not sure why since even running the code to 20 billion takes more than 10 times 2 billion and doesn't really prove anything. Looking at google, I have noted that PI(N) has been successfully calculated up to: N = 40,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 which is already over 70 bits, although it was not done by finding the prime numbers, but by calculating Li(N) and then the error between PI(N) and Li(N). > A B C D > W X Y Z > --------------------- > AZ BZ CZ DZ > AY BY CY DY > AX BX CX DX > AW BW CW DW > >(and don't forget the carries!) One trick you might want to try is to take >advantage of the fact that these are binary values so multiplication becomes >shifts and adds but with larger values like these, doing the multibyte >rotates may not be as effective as using the actual MUL instructions. > For the PDP-11, I tend to understand that MUL is only for signed 16 bit numbers, so I don't think MUL can be useful with unsigned values which are required for a 64 bit multiple as per the above example. CAN SOMEONE PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG??? That said, in MACRO-11, it should not be too difficult to do multiple shift and add operations. However, maybe someone already had some code handy? > Division is nasty, but again, works like long division. >[Snip] > I have some C code that does some of this---one is a C implementation of a >techique Woz used in calculating e to 100,000 digits (as described in Byte >magazine of either Dec 1980 or Dec 1981) and another one that does division >in C, if you are interested. > I am interested!!!!!!! Thank you for your reply! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Jul 28 18:22:07 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:22:07 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17128.54676.531000.305696@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42E6FEAB.8070505@compsys.to> <00fb01c5925f$db8c98a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <42E82941.4000705@compsys.to> <17128.54676.531000.305696@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42E9689F.8060806@compsys.to> >Paul Koning wrote: >Actually, carry is easy. There's a simple trick I learned on the >Alpha, but it applies anywhere. > >Given UNSIGNED variables: > c = a + b; > if (c < a) > { /* you got a carry */ } > Jerome Fine replies: Fortunately on the PDP-11, the carry is automatic in assembler, just "ADC" to the next word to be included in the sum before adding the next pair of words. Likewise for subtraction. Multiplication and addition are a bit more complicated, of course. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jul 28 19:06:08 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:06:08 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42E972F0.7020205@jbrain.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >Wow, cool restoration project!! > > It's coming along well. Chat seems to be working, including room changes and such. I am playing with MySQL tonight to add DB support (for multiple accounts, etc.) > >Did you ever try contacting former employees to see if maybe someone >somewhere preserved the code? I know at least one former employee (Doug >Coward) but he left before they became AOL. > > I don;t know any, but my queries have reached a few folks who stated they would ask ex-employees. On the other hand, as I am not exactly sure of the legalies of using such code, we are currently trying a clean-room (or at least not-too-cluttered room) approach. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jul 28 19:19:42 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:19:42 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink In-Reply-To: <50631.68.155.21.7.1122588678.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> References: <50631.68.155.21.7.1122588678.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> Message-ID: <42E9761E.80203@jbrain.com> Jeff Davis wrote: >On Thu, July 28, 2005 5:19 pm, Ethan Dicks said: > > >>On 7/28/05, Cini, Richard wrote: >> >> >>>Is there a Stratus simulator out there? Maybe this is another project >>>someone can work on for SIMH. >>> >>> >>As someone who was paid to move things _off_ of Stratus, I have one >>word to that idea... >> >>Ewwww! >> >>-ethan >> >> > >Hey, *my* stratus code (stock quote system) wasn't bad (at least when I left >it). PL/1 isn't *too* different than C, but way more wordy. You can still >get in there and fiddle with the bits, no matter what a variable was declared >as. > >Stratus VOS definitely isn't Unix, though. > >Jeff > > Can you describe the system to me? Did you issue the Q packets yourself, or did you operate at a higher level? As for the Stratus emulator idea, I would be the last to discourage someone to embark on this, but I'm mainly interested in bringing the client back. Adding functionality via PL/1 is not my idea of a challenge. More like misery.... Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From spc at conman.org Thu Jul 28 19:25:08 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:25:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <42E9688B.6000203@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Jul 28, 2005 07:21:47 PM Message-ID: <20050729002508.058BA73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jerome H. Fine once stated: > > After that, if the run times are reasonable, I can extend the code to > allow 64 bits - although I am not sure why since even running the > code to 20 billion takes more than 10 times 2 billion and doesn't > really prove anything. Looking at google, I have noted that PI(N) > has been successfully calculated up to: > N = 40,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 > which is already over 70 bits, although it was not done by finding > the prime numbers, but by calculating Li(N) and then the error > between PI(N) and Li(N). I think you are getting a bit confused. 4,000,000,000 can be represented in 32 bits, but is only 10 digits. Generally, each 8-bit byte will give you 2.4 decimal digits of accuracy. So, 4 bytes will give you 9.6 digits, whch is in the billions range (although only into the low billions---it's a useful estimate). 70 bits will give you 21 digits. I think what you are seeing above is that pi has been calculated to 40,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 digits, which would take something on the order of 10**22 bytes to store (or 2**73 bytes, but I'm guessing they have some other method of pulling out digits of pi other than storing them all before printing). > For the PDP-11, I tend to understand that MUL is only for signed > 16 bit numbers, so I don't think MUL can be useful with unsigned > values which are required for a 64 bit multiple as per the above > example. > > CAN SOMEONE PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG??? Easy enough method---just multiply the absolute values and record the signs prior to multiplication, then reset the sign afterwards to the correct value. > > I have some C code that does some of this---one is a C implementation of a > >techique Woz used in calculating e to 100,000 digits (as described in Byte > >magazine of either Dec 1980 or Dec 1981) and another one that does division > >in C, if you are interested. > > > I am interested!!!!!!! I'll send file files directly to you (and not to the list). -spc (Unless other people are interested in it ... ) From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jul 28 19:54:25 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:54:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: local demolition of SAGE building In-Reply-To: <200507242037.j6OKb4xs004848@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > I used to have a handful of those submini tubes but I can't find one now. If > anybody has a spare, even a dead one, that they could send us it would be > nice to have one on display. Right now the only tube era parts we have are a > core plane and an IBM tube circuit with a bunch of miniature tubes - mostly > 9 pin. The rectifier had been replaced at some point with a solid state > component that plugged in a 9-pin socket. I have a few - remind me later to send one. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Jul 28 20:17:30 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:17:30 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20050729002508.058BA73029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050729002508.058BA73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <42E983AA.200@compsys.to> >Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >>It was thus said that the Great Jerome H. Fine once stated: > >>After that, if the run times are reasonable, I can extend the code to >>allow 64 bits - although I am not sure why since even running the >>code to 20 billion takes more than 10 times 2 billion and doesn't >>really prove anything. Looking at google, I have noted that PI(N) >>has been successfully calculated up to: >>N = 40,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 >>which is already over 70 bits, although it was not done by finding >>the prime numbers, but by calculating Li(N) and then the error >>between PI(N) and Li(N). >> >I think you are getting a bit confused. 4,000,000,000 can be represented >in 32 bits, but is only 10 digits. Generally, each 8-bit byte will give you >2.4 decimal digits of accuracy. So, 4 bytes will give you 9.6 digits, whch >is in the billions range (although only into the low billions---it's a >useful estimate). 70 bits will give you 21 digits. I think what you are >seeing above is that pi has been calculated to >40,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 digits, which would take something on the >order of 10**22 bytes to store (or 2**73 bytes, but I'm guessing they have >some other method of pulling out digits of pi other than storing them all >before printing). > > Jerome Fine replies: I suspect that there is gross confusion over pi (to how many figures of accuracy you choose) and PI(N) which is the NUMBER of primes between 2 and the number N. NOTE that in both cases, the GREEK letter "pi" is used (I do not know how to type GREEK letters under Netscape!!). Why the GREEK letter "pi" is used for PI(N) is beyond my comprehension, but if you google "prime numbers" and look at a few of the references, you will find it there. For example: N PI(N) 10 4 (the primes are 2, 3, 7, 9) 100 25 1,000 168 10,000 1,229 100,000 9,592 By the way, I just learned this use for "pi" this year even though I have been curious about prime numbers for over 20 years. I finally requested some books from the library and then did a few googles. >>For the PDP-11, I tend to understand that MUL is only for signed >>16 bit numbers, so I don't think MUL can be useful with unsigned >>values which are required for a 64 bit multiple as per the above >>example. >> >>CAN SOMEONE PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG??? >> >Easy enough method---just multiply the absolute values and record the >signs prior to multiplication, then reset the sign afterwards to the correct >value. > That is too easy a solution - anything a bit more difficult? More seriously, if I am using all 16 bits as unsigned integers, then the high order bit can't be easily eliminated. Of course another method is to keep all the values below 10,000 decimal which can then allow me to use FORTRAN much more easily. But I really prefer to use the full 64 bits. On the other hand, if I use the sieve method to find the primes, I don't need either multiplication or division, just 64 bit adding and 64 bit compares, probably increments by 2 and 4 and of course conversion of 64 bit values to decimal output. The last can also be done by repeated subtraction of powers of 10, so again no division. >>>I have some C code that does some of this---one is a C implementation of a >>>techique Woz used in calculating e to 100,000 digits (as described in Byte >>>magazine of either Dec 1980 or Dec 1981) and another one that does division >>>in C, if you are interested. >>> >>I am interested!!!!!!! >> >I'll send file files directly to you (and not to the list). > Thank you for the files. I have not had a chance to understand them as yet, but they will prove to be very useful. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Jul 28 20:18:28 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:18:28 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17128.55747.222000.899799@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42E6FEAB.8070505@compsys.to> <17127.33815.474000.806769@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42E829A4.7030500@compsys.to> <17128.55747.222000.899799@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42E983E4.7000900@compsys.to> >Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Jerome" == Jerome H Fine writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > > Jerome> What I am complaining about is not the internal operations, > Jerome> but the conversion routines. I went to the trouble of > Jerome> printing out the values in OCTAL so that I could figure out > Jerome> the problem. A 56 bit mantissa should allow a value of > Jerome> 36,028,797,018,963,968 when the leading (invisible) bit is > Jerome> one with the remaining bits zero. The displayed value is > Jerome> 36,028,797,018,963,965 instead or less by 3. ... > >That would be a bug. Not surprising. Floating point arithmetic >should be, and can be, accurate to the last bit. But very often it is >not, because it's *hard* to do that. DEC had a team of specialists >who worked on the numeric algorithms for VAX. The PDP-11 libraries >didn't get the benefit of that work, so it is not surprising to find >errors in the last few bits. > >As I said, if you want exact answers, DO NOT use float. > Jerome Fine replies: Again, I was not complaining about the internal floating point arithmetic, but the conversion. As you noted, I also consider it to be a bug which is actually rather easy to correct. Although it takes 8 * 16 bit words to convert just the integer portion of the floating point word, I quickly wrote a routine in assembler to do just that (well not the whole thing, just when it was able to fit into a 64 bit unsigned integer variable or only 4 * 16 bit words) in about 50 assembler instructions. I then moved the bits back into a separate 64 bit floating point number and used octal to check that the code was correct. I am sure that just a few more instructions would have allowed me to do the complete conversion into a temporary 256 bit value with 128 bits for the integer and 128 bits for the fraction. That would seem to be the maximum required for temporary storage while the value was converted to decimal notation for display with a format of "F80.40". > >> There the GNU MP library, and others like it. Long integer > >> arithmetic libraries are commonly found in crypto library > >> packages. Come to think of it, you'll find functions that are > >> helpful in stuff relating to prime numbers -- since prime numbers > >> also figure prominently in cryptography. > >> > >> So you could use MP (which is in C) directly, given a suitable > >> compiler. Or you could port it to Fortran... > >> > Jerome> Any idea where I could download the source code? Given that > Jerome> FORTRAN is not really suitable for shifting and using carry > Jerome> bits, I would port to MACRO-11. > >It's right in the GNU software library listing: >http://directory.fsf.org/GNU/gnump.html > > Jerome> In general, sieve methods for prime numbers don't ever need > Jerome> division and rarely need multiplication. Addition and > Jerome> comparing are the primary operations. Increment is also > Jerome> needed (with increment by 2 and 4 being a big time saver). > Jerome> So the only other thing needed are accurate conversion > Jerome> routines to allow output in decimal instead of octal. I > Jerome> presume that the latter is best done using subtraction of > Jerome> multiple powers of TEN which are stored in a table unless > Jerome> there are better methods of converting the output? Any > Jerome> suggestions? > >I'm sure I/O is part of GnuMP. Decimal? Probably, I haven't looked. >Multiplication is very definitely in there, it has to be, that's a >critical function for crypto. Division I don't know about either. >It certainly should be there if GnuMP was aiming to be a general >arithmetic package. If all else fails, it certainly has modular >arithmetic (again, because of crypto) from which you can synthesize >division if it isn't already there. > I downloaded the source file - THANK YOU for the link. I hope to find what I may need there. >Oh yes, I'm quite sure it also includes primality tests -- >presumably the Miller-Rabin test. > I am not familiar with the Miller-Rabin test? If it has anything to do with prime numbers, I would be very interested. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to Thu Jul 28 21:13:55 2005 From: akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:13:55 -0400 Subject: Sighting in the movies... In-Reply-To: <2964.207.237.217.134.1122478160.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> (witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk's message of "Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:29:20 +0100 (BST)") References: <200507271430.HAA11934@floodgap.com> <1122477706.15644.104.camel@weka.localdomain> <2964.207.237.217.134.1122478160.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <0qek9icqak.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> "Witchy" writes: > ObClassiccmp: the Rockford Files is on one of the several hundred TV > channels we have here and there's not a computer in sight :) Doesn't every episode start out with an answering machine message? Answering machines have logic... From spc at conman.org Thu Jul 28 21:23:16 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <42E983AA.200@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Jul 28, 2005 09:17:30 PM Message-ID: <20050729022318.48F0173029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jerome H. Fine once stated: > > I suspect that there is gross confusion over pi (to how many figures of > accuracy you choose) and PI(N) which is the NUMBER of primes > between 2 and the number N. NOTE that in both cases, the GREEK > letter "pi" is used (I do not know how to type GREEK letters under > Netscape!!). Why the GREEK letter "pi" is used for PI(N) is beyond > my comprehension, but if you google "prime numbers" and look at a > few of the references, you will find it there. For example: > N PI(N) > 10 4 (the primes are 2, 3, 7, 9) > 100 25 > 1,000 168 > 10,000 1,229 > 100,000 9,592 > > By the way, I just learned this use for "pi" this year even though I > have been curious about prime numbers for over 20 years. I finally > requested some books from the library and then did a few googles. Oh. I didn't know that either! > >Easy enough method---just multiply the absolute values and record the > >signs prior to multiplication, then reset the sign afterwards to the correct > >value. > > > That is too easy a solution - anything a bit more difficult? You could do it 8-bits at at time. Something like (using VAX assembly, as that's probably close enough to PDP-11): ;assuming A[0] = MSW, and that each "number" ;is 7 bytes long ;r0 - src 1 ;r1 - src 2 ;r2 - dest ;r3 - count ;r4 - src1[count] ;r5 - src2[count] ;r6 - prev carryover movw #7,r3 clrw r6 ; clear carry over .loop: clrw r4 ; clear tmp registers clrw r5 movb (r0)[r3],r4 ; get unsigned byte into signed word movb (r1)[r3],r5 mulw r4,r5 ; do signed multiplication addw r6,r5 ; add in previous "carry over" movb r5,(r2)[r3] ; save result rotl -8,r5,r6 ; save "carry over" bitcw #00FF,r6 ; make sure "carry over" is between 0 - 255 sobgeq r3,.loop ; loop Get's around the fact that the MUL instruction is signed only, even though the longer number is unsigned. > More seriously, if I am using all 16 bits as unsigned integers, then > the high order bit can't be easily eliminated. Of course another > method is to keep all the values below 10,000 decimal which > can then allow me to use FORTRAN much more easily. But > I really prefer to use the full 64 bits. On the other hand, if I > use the sieve method to find the primes, I don't need either > multiplication or division, just 64 bit adding and 64 bit compares, > probably increments by 2 and 4 and of course conversion of > 64 bit values to decimal output. The last can also be done by > repeated subtraction of powers of 10, so again no division. If you do have a DIV instruction, and for printing out the result, it's easy to divide through the large number by 10 (as long as you get both the quotient and remainder from the DIV instruction). I have some 8086 code to print 32-bit quanities (given that the 8086 only supports a 16-bit DIV operation). -spc (Always did love the VAX assembly language ... ) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jul 28 21:43:31 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:43:31 -0400 Subject: local demolition of SAGE building Message-ID: <0IKD005OLBIXB0CA@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: local demolition of SAGE building > From: William Donzelli > Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:54:25 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Cc: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" > >> I used to have a handful of those submini tubes but I can't find one now. If >> anybody has a spare, even a dead one, that they could send us it would be >> nice to have one on display. Right now the only tube era parts we have are a >> core plane and an IBM tube circuit with a bunch of miniature tubes - mostly >> 9 pin. The rectifier had been replaced at some point with a solid state >> component that plugged in a 9-pin socket. > >I have a few - remind me later to send one. > I have some however they are of the types used for RF applications AKA 5899 and 5636. Really nice devices and I've already used some for A pair of recievers and I plan to use a few more for a small transmitter (1-2W). Various internet sellers still stock many of them and the prices are not unreasonable for NOS (new unused old stock). Allison From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jul 28 21:52:18 2005 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:52:18 -0700 Subject: DR DOS 5.0 In-Reply-To: <575131af0507280922502bedaa@mail.gmail.com> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C369@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <575131af0507280922502bedaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42E999E2.40500@deltasoft.com> > There's a project to enhance the open source version to feature parity > and more, the DR-DOS Enhancement Project. > > http://www.drdosprojects.de/ > > The management of Lineo set up a new company, DeviceLogic. They're > offering DR-DOS 8 now. > > http://www.drdos.com/ > The bummer is, I've got a CD with the full sources and build chain for OpenDOS 7.01 - but can't release it. I got it when Roger Gross and I thought that Caldera was going to go the whole route and open source it all. That was back in '96. At least I got 'em to release GEM and related software. :) g. -- -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Jul 28 22:56:25 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:56:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sighting in the movies... In-Reply-To: <0qek9icqak.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <200507271430.HAA11934@floodgap.com> <1122477706.15644.104.camel@weka.localdomain> <2964.207.237.217.134.1122478160.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <0qek9icqak.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <1212.207.237.217.134.1122609385.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > > "Witchy" writes: >> ObClassiccmp: the Rockford Files is on one of the several hundred TV >> channels we have here and there's not a computer in sight :) > > Doesn't every episode start out with an answering machine message? > Answering machines have logic... Yes, but it's an analogue answering machine recording messages on tape...... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From bill at timeguy.com Thu Jul 28 23:04:17 2005 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:04:17 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 ROM monitor image wanted In-Reply-To: <200507282157.j6SLvYb4060333@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507282157.j6SLvYb4060333@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050729040417.GA33865@outpost.timeguy.com> Hi gang. In order to complete our hardware Altair 680 look-alike project, we need a binary image of whatever was included in the ROM/PROM on the motherboard. Any additional code for the system would also be happily accepted. Can anyone supply a copy, or point me to a web site where I can download it? Once we get the thing going, I'll put up some information on my web site. Right now we've got the front panel electronics done, and it looks very nice. From bill at timeguy.com Thu Jul 28 23:06:02 2005 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:06:02 -0500 Subject: Possible Apple IIe's available In-Reply-To: <200507282157.j6SLvYb4060333@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507282157.j6SLvYb4060333@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050729040602.GB33865@outpost.timeguy.com> Just got a call from a guy at a local high-school that's doing some cleaning, and they're apparently getting ready to dumpster a bunch of Apple IIe's. He says he can probably save some for me, and maybe the monitors to go with them, if I let him know soon. I'm probably going to grab a couple for myself; would anyone else like one for the cost of packing and shipping? Let me know ASAP. P.S. - Shipping would be from Nebraska. From bill at timeguy.com Thu Jul 28 23:18:16 2005 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:18:16 -0500 Subject: Altair PROM monitor In-Reply-To: <200507282157.j6SLvYb4060333@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507282157.j6SLvYb4060333@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050729041816.GA33987@outpost.timeguy.com> Note to self: check Google, _then_ ask on list. I never imagined anyone would have the 680b PROM monitor code on a web page (I was wrong). Never mind. Thanks. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jul 28 23:19:42 2005 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:19:42 EDT Subject: Possible Apple IIe's available Message-ID: <200.697e947.301b085e@aol.com> In a message dated 7/29/2005 12:17:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, bill at timeguy.com writes: Just got a call from a guy at a local high-school that's doing some cleaning, and they're apparently getting ready to dumpster a bunch of Apple IIe's. He says he can probably save some for me, and maybe the monitors to go with them, if I let him know soon. I'm probably going to grab a couple for myself; would anyone else like one for the cost of packing and shipping? Let me know ASAP. P.S. - Shipping would be from Nebraska. ------- if they can't all be saved, it would be nice to at least grab any internal cards and disk drives. I'd be interested to know if they're enhanced models with the duodisk, or the latest silver revision of it with the keypad. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jul 28 23:23:40 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20050729022318.48F0173029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050729022318.48F0173029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200507290527.BAA21380@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > ;assuming A[0] = MSW, and that each "number" > ;is 7 bytes long ... > movw #7,r3 > clrw r6 ; clear carry over > .loop: clrw r4 ; clear tmp registers > clrw r5 > movb (r0)[r3],r4 ; get unsigned byte into signed word > movb (r1)[r3],r5 > mulw r4,r5 ; do signed multiplication > addw r6,r5 ; add in previous "carry over" > movb r5,(r2)[r3] ; save result > rotl -8,r5,r6 ; save "carry over" > bitcw #00FF,r6 ; make sure "carry over" is between 0 - 255 > sobgeq r3,.loop ; loop * The comment says 7 bytes long; the code actually does 8 (7..0) * Why not use movzbw instead of clrw-and-movb? * It's canonically bicw, not bitcw. * You need bicw #ff00,r6, not #00ff. * movzbw r6,r6 does what your bi[t]cw tries to, and is shorter. * If you'd store the numbevrs little-endian, the VAX way, instead of big-endian, you could do it much more cheaply with emul - especially if you do use a multiple of 4 bytes. > Get's around the fact that the MUL instruction is signed only, even > though the longer number is unsigned. Provided you have integer overflow traps turned off, the difference doesn't matter; the only difference between signed and unsigned multiply is what constitutes arithmetic overflow. Here's what I'd do, which rolls all the above suggestions together: ; All numbers are 8 bytes long, unsigned, LSB-first (native-endian) ; Overflow is ignored (high 64 bits of the 128-bit product are lost) ; r0 - points to first byte of multiplier A ; r1 - points to first byte of multiplier B ; r2 - points to first byte of result ; r3,r4,r5 - ignored on input and garbaged on output emul (r0),(r1),$0,r3 emul (r0),4(r1),r4,r4 emul 4(r0),(r1),r4,r4 movq r3,(r2) If you want the whole 128-bit product, then ; r0 - input A, 8 bytes ; r1 - input B, 8 bytes ; r2 - output, 16 bytes ; r3-r9 - scratch emul (r0),(r1),$0,r3 emul (r0),4(r1),r4,r4 emul 4(r0),4(r1),r5,r5 emul 4(r0),(r1),r4,r8 addl2 r9,r5 adwc $0,r6 movl r3,(r2) movl r8,4(r2) movq r5,8(r2) > If you do have a DIV instruction, What VAX doesn't? > and for printing out the result, it's easy to divide through the > large number by 10 (as long as you get both the quotient and > remainder from the DIV instruction). Except you don't. You probably want EDIV, which does give both. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spc at conman.org Fri Jul 29 01:24:03 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:24:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200507290527.BAA21380@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jul 29, 2005 12:23:40 AM Message-ID: <20050729062403.EC78973029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > > ;assuming A[0] = MSW, and that each "number" > > ;is 7 bytes long > ... > > movw #7,r3 > > clrw r6 ; clear carry over > > .loop: clrw r4 ; clear tmp registers > > clrw r5 > > movb (r0)[r3],r4 ; get unsigned byte into signed word > > movb (r1)[r3],r5 > > mulw r4,r5 ; do signed multiplication > > addw r6,r5 ; add in previous "carry over" > > movb r5,(r2)[r3] ; save result > > rotl -8,r5,r6 ; save "carry over" > > bitcw #00FF,r6 ; make sure "carry over" is between 0 - 255 > > sobgeq r3,.loop ; loop > > * The comment says 7 bytes long; the code actually does 8 (7..0) You're right---I wanted 8 bytes, but wrote 7. > * Why not use movzbw instead of clrw-and-movb? Because I didn't know about it. I never really *did* any VAX assembly programming, but I do have a book on it, and I really like the instruction set. > * It's canonically bicw, not bitcw. Ah. > * You need bicw #ff00,r6, not #00ff. Oh ... it *clears* bits in the destination that are set in the source. > * movzbw r6,r6 does what your bi[t]cw tries to, and is shorter. Ah. > * If you'd store the numbevrs little-endian, the VAX way, instead of > big-endian, you could do it much more cheaply with emul - especially > if you do use a multiple of 4 bytes. Well, I was trying to show how to do it if the MUL instruction was only signed in nature and you wanted to do an unsigned multiply of multi-byte values (remember, the target is a PDP-11). > > Get's around the fact that the MUL instruction is signed only, even > > though the longer number is unsigned. > > Provided you have integer overflow traps turned off, the difference > doesn't matter; the only difference between signed and unsigned > multiply is what constitutes arithmetic overflow. Um ... no ... you're right. I think. [ rest snipped ] -spc (Is it obvious I never programmed assembly on a VAX? 8-/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jul 29 08:14:35 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:14:35 -0400 Subject: DEC Rainbow disks - help References: <0IKC00AIVZTNNRC0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <17130.11195.547000.762450@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: >> ... >> Ok, so where physically is LBA 0? On most disks it is cyl 0 track >> 0 sec 0. But not on the RX50; there it is cyl 1 track 0 sec 0. >> >> So what LBA lives on cyl 0 track 0 sec 0? Answer: I'm getting too >> confused in the arithmetic, but it's an LBA in the range 790 to >> 799. Allison> snipped... Allison> OK, that applies to NON CP/M and DOS disks and I can see how Allison> it would be a PITA to create DOS or CP/M media from other Allison> DEC systems. Having done it in the past those memory bits Allison> were lost. ;) Mostly due to trying to do the reverse (DEC Allison> OSs from CP/M hardware). Allison> I see no other impact to the Rainbow from the RX50. I don't actually know the Rainbow, but I have a bit of code elsewhere that contains this comment: /* Convert block number to cylinder, head, sector for RT11-RX50. * This is different for RT11 than for Rainbow DOS: * For DOS, for cylinders 2 through 79, the sectors are interleaved 2:1. * (DOS capability is not supported in this RT11 version). * For RT11, all sectors are interleaved 2:1, and each subsequent * track has the first logical block offset by 2 more sectors. */ So the implication is that Rainbow RX50s are still weird, but weird differently than PDP11 ones. I don't have more detail than that, and I don't remember the origin of that comment. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jul 29 08:54:56 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:54:56 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 References: <42E6FEAB.8070505@compsys.to> <17127.33815.474000.806769@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42E829A4.7030500@compsys.to> <17128.55747.222000.899799@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42E983E4.7000900@compsys.to> Message-ID: <17130.13616.108000.438133@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jerome" == Jerome H Fine writes: >> Oh yes, I'm quite sure it also includes primality tests -- >> presumably the Miller-Rabin test. >> Jerome> I am not familiar with the Miller-Rabin test? If it has Jerome> anything to do with prime numbers, I would be very Jerome> interested. Depending on how deep you want to dig, if you like primes, you should get yourself some cryptography textbooks. A good primer, without a lot of serious math, is Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography". If you want to understand the math in depth, get "Handbook of Applied Cryptography" (I think that's the correct title) by Menezes et al. I have both, though I'm stuck at around chapter 2 in the latter because the math goes beyond what I know. I think Knuth has a discussion of the M-R test -- surely you have Knuth, right? If not, you need to fix that. The M-R test is a "probabilistic primality test" -- a fast way of testing a number for being prime that has a certain probability of giving the wrong answer. You can do the test repeatedly, and if the tests are done right so they are independent, the test will become more and more accurate. This test is generally used in crypto programs because it is fast. There are also tests for primality that are exact rather than probabilistic -- those are MUCH slower. For multi-thousand-bit numbers, people use M-R unless they absolutely, positively require a guarantee of primality and can afford the hours or days of CPU time investment. An example: the Diffie-Hellman parameters for the IKE key exchange protocol (part of IPsec) were subjected to the full primality test, not just M-R. paul From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jul 29 09:48:06 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:48:06 -0700 Subject: IBM Token Ring In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20050721203843.0314fad8@mail.n.ml.org> References: <001101c58cc7$1421b0e0$0100a8c0@screamer> <200507200543.j6K5hG0Y048643@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20050721203843.0314fad8@mail.n.ml.org> Message-ID: <200507290748.06529.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 21 July 2005 17:46, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Actually, I feel pretty retarded, but I may as well ask (pre-emptive > shut-up, Sellam -grin). I have been trying to get my TR network > working for over a year now and can't for some damned reason. Most of > the NICs are either Madge or IBM PCI (a few are Olicom PCI/ISA or IBM > MCA). The hubs are Bay Networks Baystack 504 (loaded with DCM, NMM, > MDA, etc) or Centillion 100 with TokenSpeed 4 port blades mixed with > ATMSpeed/155 and EtherSpeed 10/100 blades. Can't get either to > properly allow the NICs to communicate over the hubs. Tried a lot of > things and still can't figure out what is wrong. Also have an IBM > 8228 MAU, but no reset tool to make it work. I have all the cabling > and even tried RJ45<->RJ45 vs. Type 1 vampire<->DB9 cabling - > nothing. Anyone have any ideas? I was dumb and gave my working 3Com > TR hub to a friend years ago, so that is out of the picture. What I > can't understand is why I can't get the 504 working on the network > again after it ran a few years ago when last used. > -John Boffemmyer IV John, I know Token Ring well - but you haven't provided enough information for me to give you a hand. 1) Have you connected a single workstation successfully to a MAU - i.e. Did it "open" as expected? 2) Once you've got two workstations/servers connected individually, then test them together. Although I found IBM, Olicom and Thomas-Contrad to be very compatible - I'd stick to one vendor until you've got at least two stations communicating with each other. The drivers for each vendors product and sometimes model are totally different. Be sure you are using the drivers appropriate for each vendor's board. 3) Make sure you don't mix speeds! This was a classic problem w/TR networks - if you mix 4 and 16 speeds, a TR network will go into continual "beaconing". 4) Keep is simple - one MAU - adding/testing workstations - then add additional MAUs, using the verified workstations at UUT (Units under test). Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jdbryan at acm.org Fri Jul 29 10:10:46 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:10:46 -0400 Subject: HP 98xx manuals (6th box) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050725160321.00a54290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200507291510.j6TFAl3J010645@mail.bcpl.net> On 25 Jul 2005 at 16:03, Joe R. wrote: > *PS I also have a boxful of HP Journals that didn't go in the great > purge. I would really like to see the earlier HP Journals (up to 1985 or so) preserved. There's pertinent information in there that I haven't found elsewhere, e.g., the original article on the HP 64000 describes the file system structure on disk. I have a bunch of these that I will be scanning and PDF-ing at some point. I'd be happy to do yours as well, or send them to Al; just please don't let them be purged! -- Dave From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 29 10:28:06 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:28:06 +0000 Subject: DEC Rainbow disks - help In-Reply-To: <17130.11195.547000.762450@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <0IKC00AIVZTNNRC0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <17130.11195.547000.762450@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1122650886.19907.55.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 09:14 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > I don't actually know the Rainbow, but I have a bit of code elsewhere > that contains this comment: > > /* Convert block number to cylinder, head, sector for RT11-RX50. > * This is different for RT11 than for Rainbow DOS: > * For DOS, for cylinders 2 through 79, the sectors are interleaved 2:1. > * (DOS capability is not supported in this RT11 version). > * For RT11, all sectors are interleaved 2:1, and each subsequent > * track has the first logical block offset by 2 more sectors. > */ > > So the implication is that Rainbow RX50s are still weird, but weird > differently than PDP11 ones. I don't have more detail than that, and > I don't remember the origin of that comment. Strange how they don't interleave the first couple of cylinders for the Rainbow. Why is that? It there some situation where it's necessary to write some form of boot sectors on the disk in order? For RT11 it sounds like there are issues with the hardware finding the index hole and being able to react in time to read the first sector on the track, hence the offset within the track to the first logical block on that track? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 29 10:33:31 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:33:31 +0000 Subject: IBM Token Ring In-Reply-To: <200507290748.06529.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <001101c58cc7$1421b0e0$0100a8c0@screamer> <200507200543.j6K5hG0Y048643@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20050721203843.0314fad8@mail.n.ml.org> <200507290748.06529.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <1122651211.19890.61.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 07:48 -0700, Lyle Bickley wrote: > 2) Once you've got two workstations/servers connected individually, then test > them together. Although I found IBM, Olicom and Thomas-Contrad to be very > compatible - I'd stick to one vendor until you've got at least two stations > communicating with each other. The drivers for each vendors product and > sometimes model are totally different. Be sure you are using the drivers > appropriate for each vendor's board. I certainly used to have all sorts of trouble with drivers (and different OSes). As Lyle says, keep it simple at first and get a link running between two machines with the minimum of hardware in the middle before adding more stuff. ISTR finding that 5 or 6 years ago software for the Madge PCI cards tended to be the least troublesome (just a shame that the Linux driver was proprietary back then; maybe it isn't these days) cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jul 29 10:47:27 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:47:27 -0400 Subject: DEC Rainbow disks - help References: <0IKC00AIVZTNNRC0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <17130.11195.547000.762450@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1122650886.19907.55.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <17130.20367.814000.636626@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> Strange how they don't interleave the first couple of Jules> cylinders for the Rainbow. Why is that? It there some Jules> situation where it's necessary to write some form of boot Jules> sectors on the disk in order? I have no idea. I just quoted what I learned some years past (which is what that comment reports). I no longer remember where I learned it, and I never heard *why* it was done this way. Jules> For RT11 it sounds like there are issues with the hardware Jules> finding the index hole and being able to react in time to read Jules> the first sector on the track, hence the offset within the Jules> track to the first logical block on that track? It's not really RT11 that's the issue here, the original RX50 was in the PRO. It has a typically crude PRO disk controller, with a single sector buffer on the I/O card that is filled or emptied by the OS driver one byte at a time. Shades of IDE PIO mode. The hard disk works the same way! Anyway, my assumption is that the interleave parameters -- both the sector interleave and the track skew -- were chosen to optimize performance. This is a common technique in older storage systems with limited buffering; for example, CDC used it in its 60 bit mainframes. The sector interleave allows you to move the data from the controller to host memory and then catch the next logical sector without having to wait a whole revolution. Track skew lets you do a single cylinder head step and then catch the next logical sector on the same revolution. All this assumes some specific system timing -- in this case, presumably the F11 CPU and the PRO bus and controller timings. The later controllers for other DEC machines inherited this format for backwards compatibility -- it's quite unlikely that it actually is needed for performance in those faster machines with better controllers. paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 29 10:55:24 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:55:24 +0000 Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: <200507281742.j6SHgsID004127@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200507281742.j6SHgsID004127@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1122652524.19890.66.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 10:42 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > " For those who own Atari TT030 workstations, I have finally gotten a > > hard disk with Atari's version of Unix System V on it running along with a > > Out of curiousity, what does running Atari's version of Unix on the TT030 > get you? How is it better than running say NetBSD. I suspect it's not better... but running a diluted flavour of Unix on a classic machine which already has Unix available doesn't seem right somehow :-) > Not that I really care > to run Unix in 4MB again (at least I think that's what my TT030 has). Pretty sure ours has too - I think that was the standard amount. To Curt if he happens to read this: do you do raw hard disk images on CD? Shipping a hard disk around the place seems a bit of an expensive way of doing things (and more prone to damage) cheers Jules From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jul 29 10:55:27 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:55:27 -0400 Subject: DEC Rainbow disks - help Message-ID: <20050729155526.JHXG11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Strange how they don't interleave the first couple of cylinders for the >Rainbow. Why is that? It there some situation where it's necessary to >write some form of boot sectors on the disk in order? Assuming this is a hardware interleave (ie: physically different sector number ordering on the track): The loader is typically loaded "raw fast" by the boot, which is simply reading the sectors into memory, so once one is done, it can be immediately ready for the next one. It may therefore speed up the boot process slightly to put these sectors with 1:1 interleave. The remainder of the disk is "application area" and the amount of processing required between sectors is indeterminate, but you can be fairly sure that most of the time there will be some gap between sector requests, so it makes sense to interleave these. If it's software interleave (like CP/M does with it's XLT table), then the reason may be more basic - the loader may not include enough smarts to perform the local to physical sector translation, hence boot tracks have logical=physical. I doubt that interleave will affect the functionality of either area other than speed. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From bqt at Update.UU.SE Fri Jul 29 11:00:47 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:00:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200507291536.j6TFaDHe067239@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507291536.j6TFaDHe067239@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > >It was thus said that the Great Jerome H. Fine once stated: > > > > > >>By the way, are there any standard algorithms for the > >>4 basic operations (add, subtract, multiply and divide) > >>for 128 bit numbers which are composed of 8 * 16 bit > >>words? As per your suggestion, I would probably use: > >>CHARACTER * 16 ARRAY ( nnn ) > >> > >What language? In assembly addition and subtraction are pretty trivial if > >you have a carry bit you can use (not all RISC based CPUs have a carry bit). > >Just make sure you keep track of endian issues (given an array A[n] is A[0] > >the Most Significant or Least Significant word?). > >[Snip] > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > While the logic will probably be in FORTRAN 77 under RT-11 > on an emulated PDP-11, I might actually check that it all works > on a real PDP-11. However, since FORTRAN 77 is rather nasty > using more than 32 bit integers, I will probably code the routines > in MACRO-11 for 64/128 bit add and compare after I first write > the program for 32 bit integers which can calculate up to 2 billion. I've already posted code for how to do arbitrary size additions in FORTRAN-77 on the PDP-11. Substraction is very straight forward the same deal. Multiplication and division follows the same line as well. Nothing difficult at all, really. > As for endian issues, I can define the most significant word to be > at either end, but I tend to think that I will place the most significant > at the high end of the word since this allows FORTRAN 77 to use > octal to output the value correctly with 64 bit floating point values. ??? Not sure what you actually say here. Floating point values hardly have anything to do with this. Pick whatever byte order you want, and stick with it. Output is something you'll have to figure out anyway, and you deal with any byte order you decided on then. Either way is not that difficult. However, I'd recommend using little-endian, since that is the "natural" order of the PDP-11, and F77 on the machine. That means you can let it deal with 16-bit quantities natively without having to to byte swapping. > > A B C D > > W X Y Z > > --------------------- > > AZ BZ CZ DZ > > AY BY CY DY > > AX BX CX DX > > AW BW CW DW > > > >(and don't forget the carries!) One trick you might want to try is to take > >advantage of the fact that these are binary values so multiplication becomes > >shifts and adds but with larger values like these, doing the multibyte > >rotates may not be as effective as using the actual MUL instructions. > > > For the PDP-11, I tend to understand that MUL is only for signed > 16 bit numbers, so I don't think MUL can be useful with unsigned > values which are required for a 64 bit multiple as per the above > example. > > CAN SOMEONE PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG??? Yes, the MUL instruction sign adjust the 32-bit result, based on the two 16-bit input values. However, who cares? You can get FORTRAN-77 to do unsigned 16 bit multiplication by just grabbing the 16 bit value, and move it (unsigned) into a 32-bit variable, do the multiplication, and you'll get an unsigned result back, in combination with the carry into the next word (when split into two 16-bit values again). > That said, in MACRO-11, it should not be too difficult to do multiple shift > and add operations. However, maybe someone already had some code > handy? Someone probably have, yes. But it is still *very* easy. No more than a days work. If you pay me, I'll throw the code together for you. > > Division is nasty, but again, works like long division. > >[Snip] > > I have some C code that does some of this---one is a C implementation of a > >techique Woz used in calculating e to 100,000 digits (as described in Byte > >magazine of either Dec 1980 or Dec 1981) and another one that does division > >in C, if you are interested. > > > I am interested!!!!!!! Do it just like you do on paper. Deal with 16 bits at a time, stuffed into 32-bit variables. Sign will be preserved, overflow dealt with, and everything works out just fine. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Fri Jul 29 11:02:43 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:02:43 -0400 Subject: Glockenspiel C++ or CFRONT sources Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE73D@exchange.olf.com> Does anyone have eiterh Glockenspiel C++ or sources to cfront around??? Or any other C++ to C tools.... Thanks, Ram From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 29 11:02:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Implementations of Unix on micros Message-ID: Not sure if this has been posted before, but still somewhat useful as a research/curio record: http://www.robotwisdom.com/linux/nonnix.html -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bqt at Update.UU.SE Fri Jul 29 11:16:22 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:16:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200507291536.j6TFaDHe067239@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507291536.j6TFaDHe067239@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > >>It was thus said that the Great Jerome H. Fine once stated: > > > >>For the PDP-11, I tend to understand that MUL is only for signed > >>16 bit numbers, so I don't think MUL can be useful with unsigned > >>values which are required for a 64 bit multiple as per the above > >>example. > >> > >>CAN SOMEONE PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG??? > >> > >Easy enough method---just multiply the absolute values and record the > >signs prior to multiplication, then reset the sign afterwards to the correct > >value. > > > That is too easy a solution - anything a bit more difficult? > > More seriously, if I am using all 16 bits as unsigned integers, then > the high order bit can't be easily eliminated. True. And if you don't use all 16 bits, then the MUL instruction deals with the sign itself anyway, so there is no need to take absolute values and so on either... In short, a good suggestion in theory, but one that don't work in real life. But of course you still haven't reflected on the fact that in FORTRAN-77 you can do 32-bit integer multiplication already... > Of course another > method is to keep all the values below 10,000 decimal which > can then allow me to use FORTRAN much more easily. But > I really prefer to use the full 64 bits. What 64 bits??? Native integers are 16 bits. You also happen to have 32-bit integers in FORTRAN, but there aren't any 64-bit integers. You have 64-bit entities for REAL*8, but they don't hold 64 bits of mantissa, apart from the rounding errors always expose yourself to when using FP. > On the other hand, if I > use the sieve method to find the primes, I don't need either > multiplication or division, just 64 bit adding and 64 bit compares, > probably increments by 2 and 4 and of course conversion of > 64 bit values to decimal output. The last can also be done by > repeated subtraction of powers of 10, so again no division. Why use the sieve? Unless you have lots of memory, and are trying to list every prime you can find, it's pretty inefficient. And you don't have lots of memory in a PDP-11. Assuming you represent every odd number with one bit (no need for the even ones), and assuming that you can stuff an array of 50Kbytes, that will still only give you primes less than 400.000. Absolutely no problem representing that in a 32-bit integer. I'd go for a simple factorization instead, if you want to search for larger primes. And then you need division and remainder. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 29 11:12:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible Apple IIe's available In-Reply-To: <20050729040602.GB33865@outpost.timeguy.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Bill Richman wrote: > Just got a call from a guy at a local high-school that's doing some > cleaning, and they're apparently getting ready to dumpster a bunch of > Apple IIe's. He says he can probably save some for me, and maybe the > monitors to go with them, if I let him know soon. I'm probably going to > grab a couple for myself; would anyone else like one for the cost of > packing and shipping? Let me know ASAP. You'll want to check inside each and every one of them for interestiong add-on cards and mods. School Apple ]['s usually have lots of additional peripherals for speech synthesis, perhaps speech recognition, network boards, printer sharing devices, etc. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jul 29 11:25:46 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:25:46 -0400 Subject: Jolt 6502 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42EA588A.10402@atarimuseum.com> I am looking for anyone with a Jolt 6502 board, I am interested in purchasing one if anyone is willing to sell, please contact me off-list, thank you. Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/2005 From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jul 29 11:28:48 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:28:48 -0400 Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: <1122652524.19890.66.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200507281742.j6SHgsID004127@onyx.spiritone.com> <1122652524.19890.66.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42EA5940.6050802@atarimuseum.com> Hi Jules, I have several HD's with it, I've been rather tied up, so if someone would be willing to make some images for me and is local here in the US (I'd hate to have to ship a HD out to UK/Europe, I will bubblewrap it up nice and safe and send it over to you. Contact me off-list. I have the full developers manual for Atari Unix System V, I also have the Tos/Unix boot select diskettes as well (needed on the TT030 to tell the BIOS how to boot a foreign HD format that does not have AHDI on it. I will start to put sections of the dev manuals (about 400-500pp) and make them into sectional PDF's CUrt Jules Richardson wrote: >On Thu, 2005-07-28 at 10:42 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >>>" For those who own Atari TT030 workstations, I have finally gotten a >>>hard disk with Atari's version of Unix System V on it running along with a >>> >>> >>Out of curiousity, what does running Atari's version of Unix on the TT030 >>get you? How is it better than running say NetBSD. >> >> > >I suspect it's not better... but running a diluted flavour of Unix on a >classic machine which already has Unix available doesn't seem right >somehow :-) > > > >> Not that I really care >>to run Unix in 4MB again (at least I think that's what my TT030 has). >> >> > >Pretty sure ours has too - I think that was the standard amount. > >To Curt if he happens to read this: do you do raw hard disk images on >CD? Shipping a hard disk around the place seems a bit of an expensive >way of doing things (and more prone to damage) > >cheers > >Jules > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/2005 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jul 29 11:34:28 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 Message-ID: <200507291634.JAA09132@clulw009.amd.com> Hi For those that are interested in such things, they have found a formula to calculate any digits of PI. The only problem seems to be that it can only do this for the Hexadecimal digits and not the decimal digits. They are still looking for an equation that will do it for decimal digits. This can be used to verify ones PI calculations. I saw the formula in a Science News about 2 years ago. Dwight From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jul 29 11:47:36 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:47:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <200507291536.j6TFaDHe067239@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200507291710.NAA04534@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> For the PDP-11, I tend to understand that MUL is only for signed 16 >> bit numbers, so I don't think MUL can be useful with unsigned values >> which are required for a 64 bit multiple as per the above example. >> CAN SOMEONE PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG??? You're right and you're wrong. :-) If you're doing a 16*16->16 multiply, it doesn't matter whether it's signed or not, except for detecting overflow. If you're doing a 16*16->32 multiply, the difference between signed and unsigned is the high half of the result. To figure details, consider, for example, A*B where A is in the "problematic" range (32768..65535). You want A*B; the instruction will give you (A-65536)*B = A*B - 65536*B. Come to think of it, I think the code I posted earlier using EMUL to do extended-precision multiplication is wrong for this reason; as I read the VARM, EMUL does a signed multiply-and-add.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From charlesmorris at direcway.com Fri Jul 29 12:18:59 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris at direcway.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:18:59 -0400 Subject: 'New' RL02 on the way - how to power up? Message-ID: <200ff8a2013e13.2013e13200ff8a@direcway.com> ----- Original Message ----- > On 7/27/05, gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: > > You can't open the lid, unless you open a little hatch on the > right-hand side and trip the catch by hand. > > If that unit has one. The little hatch does not appear on all drives. Everything's fine. Pack is out, heads are secured, a 4 lb hammer was plenty big enough :) It should be on the way. Now, can someone tell me what to do when it arrives? Something like, check the filters, run for a while with the heads locked to purge dust, etc. Any good source for a new filter? thanks Charles From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jul 29 12:48:55 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:48:55 -0400 Subject: DEC Rainbow disks - help Message-ID: <0IKE00KRBHHBCEIG@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DEC Rainbow disks - help > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:28:06 +0000 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 09:14 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: >> I don't actually know the Rainbow, but I have a bit of code elsewhere >> that contains this comment: >> >> /* Convert block number to cylinder, head, sector for RT11-RX50. >> * This is different for RT11 than for Rainbow DOS: >> * For DOS, for cylinders 2 through 79, the sectors are interleaved 2:1. >> * (DOS capability is not supported in this RT11 version). >> * For RT11, all sectors are interleaved 2:1, and each subsequent >> * track has the first logical block offset by 2 more sectors. >> */ >> >> So the implication is that Rainbow RX50s are still weird, but weird >> differently than PDP11 ones. I don't have more detail than that, and >> I don't remember the origin of that comment. > >Strange how they don't interleave the first couple of cylinders for the >Rainbow. Why is that? It there some situation where it's necessary to >write some form of boot sectors on the disk in order? Those are reserved for "system" tracks and are not part of the data area. >For RT11 it sounds like there are issues with the hardware finding the >index hole and being able to react in time to read the first sector on >the track, hence the offset within the track to the first logical block >on that track? No. RT11 has no such problem. It's possible the controller could but, that is not true either. The index hole and all are invisible to the OS as it's all a controller problem. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jul 29 12:53:58 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:53:58 -0400 Subject: DEC Rainbow disks - help Message-ID: <0IKE00933HPQLKU6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DEC Rainbow disks - help > From: Paul Koning > Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:14:35 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: > > >> ... > >> Ok, so where physically is LBA 0? On most disks it is cyl 0 track > >> 0 sec 0. But not on the RX50; there it is cyl 1 track 0 sec 0. > >> > >> So what LBA lives on cyl 0 track 0 sec 0? Answer: I'm getting too > >> confused in the arithmetic, but it's an LBA in the range 790 to > >> 799. > > Allison> snipped... > > Allison> OK, that applies to NON CP/M and DOS disks and I can see how > Allison> it would be a PITA to create DOS or CP/M media from other > Allison> DEC systems. Having done it in the past those memory bits > Allison> were lost. ;) Mostly due to trying to do the reverse (DEC > Allison> OSs from CP/M hardware). > > Allison> I see no other impact to the Rainbow from the RX50. > >I don't actually know the Rainbow, but I have a bit of code elsewhere >that contains this comment: > >/* Convert block number to cylinder, head, sector for RT11-RX50. > * This is different for RT11 than for Rainbow DOS: > * For DOS, for cylinders 2 through 79, the sectors are interleaved 2:1. > * (DOS capability is not supported in this RT11 version). > * For RT11, all sectors are interleaved 2:1, and each subsequent > * track has the first logical block offset by 2 more sectors. > */ > >So the implication is that Rainbow RX50s are still weird, but weird >differently than PDP11 ones. I don't have more detail than that, and >I don't remember the origin of that comment. > > paul No, the dos disk are structured not unlike the CP/M disks where the first track(cylinder) is system area (loads a loader from there). They are weird compared to nominal PC but in the CP/M system world they are not so strange. FYI: some CP/M systems did not use interleave (skew) at the bios level and instead wrote the cylinders with non sequential (skewed) sector numbers. The effect is the same but required less code to get skewing. Ths was especially handy when 512byte sectors were used (4 logical cpm sectors). Allison From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Fri Jul 29 12:56:00 2005 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:56:00 -0500 Subject: If yer lookin' for CP/M... Message-ID: California Digital still offers original boxed DR CP/M for $15 at http://www.cadigital.com/software.htm Bob Original Message: Message: 12 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:52:57 -0400 From: Roger Merchberger Subject: If yer lookin' for CP/M... To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050728144501.03a67ab0 at mail.30below.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Stumbling across some of the links previously provided for the different permutations of DR-DOS, I found this: ftp://ftp.fsn.hu/pub/OpenDOS/cpm2.2/ Caldera at one point acquired some form of CP/M, and this appears to be a CP/M 2.2 for a Z80, if the filenames are any indication. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 13:23:25 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:23:25 +0100 Subject: DR DOS 5.0 In-Reply-To: <42E999E2.40500@deltasoft.com> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C369@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <575131af0507280922502bedaa@mail.gmail.com> <42E999E2.40500@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <575131af05072911234bfa1bad@mail.gmail.com> On 7/29/05, Gene Buckle wrote: > The bummer is, I've got a CD with the full sources and build chain for > OpenDOS 7.01 - but can't release it. I got it when Roger Gross and I > thought that Caldera was going to go the whole route and open source it > all. That was back in '96. At least I got 'em to release GEM and > related software. :) Aha! Another FreeGEM type. Hi, Gene! Yes, I have one of those CDs, too, personally given into my hand by Bryan Sparks. Ah, well. -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 13:25:35 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:25:35 +0100 Subject: my speccy In-Reply-To: <1122585412.17753.133.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <575131af0507281226407134ab@mail.gmail.com> <1122585412.17753.133.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <575131af050729112555b9e74c@mail.gmail.com> On 7/28/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > Nice to see people still doing cool stuff on these machines :-) It certainly is. I'd like to get more involved but I lack the relevant skills and try to focus my new skills acquisition on more commercially-relevant ones, such as Linux. But I take my hat off to those who are doing such things! For my money, one of the most impressive projects is Adam Dunkels' multitasking OS for 8-bitters, Contiki. Amazing stuff; includes TCP/IP and even Ethernet support on some hardware. -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From kth at srv.net Fri Jul 29 13:28:10 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:28:10 -0600 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200507291634.JAA09132@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200507291634.JAA09132@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <42EA753A.4040905@srv.net> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi > For those that are interested in such things, they >have found a formula to calculate any digits of >PI. The only problem seems to be that it can only >do this for the Hexadecimal digits and not the >decimal digits. They are still looking for an equation >that will do it for decimal digits. > This can be used to verify ones PI calculations. >I saw the formula in a Science News about 2 years ago. >Dwight > > > Look at this article for more information on this. http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc98/2_28_98/mathland.htm You can calculate any hexidecimal digit of pi, without the need to calculate any other digit. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 29 14:03:37 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:03:37 -0400 Subject: HP 98xx manuals (6th box) In-Reply-To: <200507291510.j6TFAl3J010645@mail.bcpl.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050725160321.00a54290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050729150337.008c9d90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Dave, You guys should work on the guy that I gave the full set to. (the ones here are duplicates) I had the journals all the way back to 1952 or whenever it was that they started and up till the time that they quit printing them. If you want to talk to him let me know and I'll send you his name and address via private E-mail. FYI I have a bunch of the journal covers and indexs scanned and posted on my site but there's no links to them. Joe At 11:10 AM 7/29/05 -0400, you wrote: >On 25 Jul 2005 at 16:03, Joe R. wrote: > >> *PS I also have a boxful of HP Journals that didn't go in the great >> purge. > >I would really like to see the earlier HP Journals (up to 1985 or so) >preserved. There's pertinent information in there that I haven't found >elsewhere, e.g., the original article on the HP 64000 describes the file >system structure on disk. > >I have a bunch of these that I will be scanning and PDF-ing at some point. >I'd be happy to do yours as well, or send them to Al; just please don't let >them be purged! > > -- Dave > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 29 14:08:23 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:08:23 -0400 Subject: How to remove disk from MPI 9448 and prepare it for shipping? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050729150823.008d0de0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have a MPI 9448 cartridge drive that has a cartridge in it that I need to remove and I also need to prep the drive to be moved. Anyone know how to do this? I don't know if I can power it on or not. The power cord to the system has been cut off and was 3ph 220 anyway. If the drive just takes 110VAC 1ph I can probably get an extension cord to it. Othewise I need to know how to get the cartridge out without power. Joe From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 29 14:47:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jolt 6502 In-Reply-To: <42EA588A.10402@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jul 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I am looking for anyone with a Jolt 6502 board, I am interested in > purchasing one if anyone is willing to sell, please contact me off-list, > thank you. Hi Curt. You and me both. I've been looking for one for quite a while. The only one I've ever seen was Ray Holt's (the designer). They are quite rare. Good luck! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 15:02:15 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:02:15 -0500 Subject: Jolt 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <42EA588A.10402@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 7/29/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 29 Jul 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > I am looking for anyone with a Jolt 6502 board, I am interested in > > purchasing one if anyone is willing to sell, please contact me off-list, > > thank you. > > Hi Curt. > > You and me both. I've been looking for one for quite a while. The only > one I've ever seen was Ray Holt's (the designer). They are quite rare. I've only ever seen them in magazines (like a 1978 Popular Electronics review of "all" microcomputers available at the time). I never even saw one back in the day - KIMs and SYMs and AIMs? Sure... no Jolts. -ethan From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jul 29 15:10:35 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:10:35 -0400 Subject: Jolt 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <42EA588A.10402@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <42EA8D3B.900@atarimuseum.com> Ethan, Does it have any clear photo's of the board? If I could get a good look at it, I wouldn't mind spending some time to make a replica of it, I'm doing this for a history presentation project of the original prototype 2600 I am working on. Curt Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 7/29/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >>On Fri, 29 Jul 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> >> >> >>>I am looking for anyone with a Jolt 6502 board, I am interested in >>>purchasing one if anyone is willing to sell, please contact me off-list, >>>thank you. >>> >>> >>Hi Curt. >> >>You and me both. I've been looking for one for quite a while. The only >>one I've ever seen was Ray Holt's (the designer). They are quite rare. >> >> > >I've only ever seen them in magazines (like a 1978 Popular Electronics >review of "all" microcomputers available at the time). > >I never even saw one back in the day - KIMs and SYMs and AIMs? >Sure... no Jolts. > >-ethan > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/2005 From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jul 29 15:11:39 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:11:39 -0400 Subject: Jolt 6502 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42EA8D7B.1090006@atarimuseum.com> darn... I figured since they were the first hobbyist boards, they would've been fairly abundant and there would still be a good few of them in existence. Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Fri, 29 Jul 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > >>I am looking for anyone with a Jolt 6502 board, I am interested in >>purchasing one if anyone is willing to sell, please contact me off-list, >>thank you. >> >> > >Hi Curt. > >You and me both. I've been looking for one for quite a while. The only >one I've ever seen was Ray Holt's (the designer). They are quite rare. > >Good luck! > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/2005 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 15:22:04 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:22:04 -0500 Subject: Jolt 6502 In-Reply-To: <42EA8D3B.900@atarimuseum.com> References: <42EA588A.10402@atarimuseum.com> <42EA8D3B.900@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 7/29/05, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Ethan, > > Does it have any clear photo's of the board? If I could get a good > look at it, I wouldn't mind spending some time to make a replica of it, > I'm doing this for a history presentation project of the original > prototype 2600 I am working on. I have the magazine at home so I can check tonight, but I'm not sure there's a picture at all, clear or not. This featured section is a dense listing, like classified ads, of dozens of machines per page with feature descriptions and pricing. There are some pictures, but the largest of them will be under 2" square. It's a nice snapshot of what was available for sale (including one that I _have_ seen on eBay, but is still elusive, the Intercept Jr), but even back then, the intent was to list some basic features so people could follow up on what looked interesting. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jul 29 15:30:11 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:30:11 -0700 Subject: A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing References: <42E4A38D.1BC26FD5@cs.ubc.ca> <42E518D1.C845DE45@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: <42EA91CC.74278D19@cs.ubc.ca> Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > > Foxboro was a british industrial instruments company with a very long > history. Among other achievements, they were the first to offer a pneumatic > process controller with proportional+integral action (pneumatic controllers > in those days were on/off or at most proportional). It was called > the "Stabilog", and it was introduced in 1930; it followed the introduction > of the negative-feedback pneumatic amplifier designed by Clesson E. Mason > (also at Foxboro) in 1929 to linearize the action of pneumatic-actuated > flow-control valves. This started the era of pneumatic-based analog > computation in process control equipment (on topic). I remember > seeing a brochure from those days, trying to lure control practitioners > to install "modern pneumatic process control equipment: imagine your > plant with pneumatic instrumentation so you can control it with signals > that move at the speed of sound" :-) . This may seem funny nowadays, > but it was really this kind of technology that allowed the feasibility > of _really big_ refineries, fertilizer plants and so on. Electronic > controls in industrial settings were still a few decades from commercial > success. Thanks for the writeup, a little enlightenment about an area that isn't normally covered in computing history. > The first instance of closed-loop control using a digital computer > in an industrial setting supposedly happened at a Texaco refinery > in Port Arthur in March 15, 1959, using an RW-300 computer > (does anybode have a good reference on this?). I have a (vague) recollection of seeing an article in the IEEE "Annals of the History of Computing" publication that mentioned this. A search for Port Arthur found the following link to the table of contents for the Spring 1995 issue: http://csdl2.computer.org/persagen/DLAbsToc.jsp?resourcePath=/dl/mags/an/&toc=comp/mags/an/1995/01/a1toc.xml which contains an article titled "Pioneering Work in the Field of Computer Process Control". I can't view the entire article online, so I'm not sure if it is the article I recall or not (.. saw it several years ago in the paper version). From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jul 29 15:43:27 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:43:27 +0100 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42EA94EF.3010002@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > That's a secondary issue. Once you have something that looks like an > ST506 drive to any controller you care to name, and which stores the > bitstream in semicondcutor memory, you can then consider a server that > loads images from, say, a SCSI drive into that memory. I think you're overthinking this. I can't see it being that hard to adapt the mechanical bits of a different drive to a given set of electronics. Come to that, I don't really see how it could be that hard to repair ST506 drives, assuming they had not suffered a catastrophic head crash. They were built in relatively dirty environments compared to today's clean rooms, out of bits that were very high precision *then* but pretty crappy now. If I can walk into my local SKF or Timken stockist and pick up the incredibly obscure bearings for my gearbox off the shelf, why not a hard disk? Gordon. From dieymir at yahoo.es Fri Jul 29 15:50:23 2005 From: dieymir at yahoo.es (Diego Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:50:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 23, Issue 79 In-Reply-To: <200507291536.j6TFaDHd067239@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050729205023.98750.qmail@web26401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > > Message: 15 > Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:52:18 -0700 > From: Gene Buckle > Subject: Re: DR DOS 5.0 > To: General at deltasoft.com, "Discussion at deltasoft.com":On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Message-ID: <42E999E2.40500 at deltasoft.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > There's a project to enhance the open source version to feature > parity > > and more, the DR-DOS Enhancement Project. > > > > http://www.drdosprojects.de/ > > > > The management of Lineo set up a new company, DeviceLogic. They're > > offering DR-DOS 8 now. > > > > http://www.drdos.com/ > > > The bummer is, I've got a CD with the full sources and build chain > for > OpenDOS 7.01 - but can't release it. I got it when Roger Gross and I > > thought that Caldera was going to go the whole route and open source > it > all. That was back in '96. At least I got 'em to release GEM and > related software. :) > > g. > I've heard that Novell/Caldera had lost all the DR DOS sources previous to release 6.0 (including the DR DOS 5.0 ones) Is that true ? ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From dieymir at yahoo.es Fri Jul 29 16:04:09 2005 From: dieymir at yahoo.es (Diego Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:04:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DR DOS 5.0 In-Reply-To: <200507281753.j6SHrAoZ055556@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050729210409.44051.qmail@web26405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > > Message: 13 > Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:22:13 -0500 > From: Scott Stevens > Subject: Re: DR DOS 5.0 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <20050727222213.7e95d26b.chenmel at earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:56:18 +0200 (CEST) > Diego Rodriguez wrote: > > > Anybody knows something about its history ?? > > I have installation disks with files dated 6/1990 and also a boot > disk > > with some files dated in 2/1991, I know that several bug fixing > > versions exist, but Which is the last ?? > > > > I have a set of disks for DR-DOS 3.41 on original Digital Research > diskettes in a matched set with the GEM/3 Desktop. This combination > was a competitor with Windows 3.0 if I recall correctly. The only > 'big' Application for GEM I'm aware of was Ventura Publisher. > > It appears it was all licensed together as a set. There are > rubberstamped matching serial numbers on all the diskettes, and there > are two S/N's, one for the DR-DOS diskettes and a second for the GEM > desktop. There's also a full manual set and the sticker on front of > the DR-DOS users guide has a hologram Digital Research sticker that > cites "DR DOS, R3.X, GEM/3 Desktop, R3.X and GEM Paint, R2.X." So > it's a full bundle. My copy is in original 'plain white' box. > This seem a very interesting stuff, I'm subscribed to a DR DOS discussion group at yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dr-dos/ I wonder if you be so kind to post some photos of that bundle in the group. BTW: What are the dates of the files in the disks, We have a copy of DR DOS dated 6/89, and I have (last release ??) GEM desktop 3.13 disks with some files dated 2/89 and the rest in 1988 (I don't remember the month now) ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 29 16:56:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:56:11 +0000 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: <42EA94EF.3010002@gjcp.net> References: <42EA94EF.3010002@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <1122674171.19890.116.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 21:43 +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > That's a secondary issue. Once you have something that looks like an > > ST506 drive to any controller you care to name, and which stores the > > bitstream in semicondcutor memory, you can then consider a server that > > loads images from, say, a SCSI drive into that memory. > > I think you're overthinking this. I can't see it being that hard to > adapt the mechanical bits of a different drive to a given set of > electronics. Come to that, I don't really see how it could be that hard > to repair ST506 drives, assuming they had not suffered a catastrophic > head crash. Repairing the drive only buys you time though - there will come a point where working ST506 drives are next to impossible to get hold of. Being able to understand the data at the signal level's the first step toward being able to interpret and archive it - which is invaluable for preserving machines where no good backup process exists, or install media doesn't exist, or the disk controller is totally proprietary. > They were built in relatively dirty environments compared to today's > clean rooms, out of bits that were very high precision *then* but pretty > crappy now. If I can walk into my local SKF or Timken stockist and pick > up the incredibly obscure bearings for my gearbox off the shelf, why not > a hard disk? Because they were never sold presumably, unlike gearbox bearings. Presumably there are parts of a hard disk that never left the factory except in a complete drive. Swapping electronics boards / repairing them's a bit more viable - but it does just put off the inevitable... Any machine's going to eventually fail due to natural chip destruction (50 - 100 years?), but anything with a mechanical nature's probably going to fail long before that. cheers Jules From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 29 18:22:06 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:22:06 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 Disk Drive question Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050729192206.00b31b60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone know if the M8357 (the RX-01 controller for the PDP-8) will work with the DSD-440 drives? Someone here needs to read some RX-01 disks on a PDP-8 >>>ASAP<<< and they think that this combination will work but I don't think so. I have a good DSD-440 drive system but I don't have the DSD controller for the PDP-8. I also have a M8357 but no RX-01 drive system! Anybody have a DSD controller for the PDP-8 that they want to sell or do some horse trading for? Joe From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jul 29 18:22:23 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:22:23 +0100 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: <1122674171.19890.116.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <42EA94EF.3010002@gjcp.net> <1122674171.19890.116.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42EABA2F.2070004@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Because they were never sold presumably, unlike gearbox bearings. > Presumably there are parts of a hard disk that never left the factory > except in a complete drive. Nah, all bearings are standard. Gordon. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jul 29 18:45:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation Message-ID: <200507292345.QAA09357@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Gordon JC Pearce" > >Tony Duell wrote: >> >> That's a secondary issue. Once you have something that looks like an >> ST506 drive to any controller you care to name, and which stores the >> bitstream in semicondcutor memory, you can then consider a server that >> loads images from, say, a SCSI drive into that memory. > >I think you're overthinking this. I can't see it being that hard to >adapt the mechanical bits of a different drive to a given set of >electronics. Come to that, I don't really see how it could be that hard >to repair ST506 drives, assuming they had not suffered a catastrophic >head crash. Hi I have several that were destroyed by someone mecahnically rotating the media backwards. The trailing edge of the heads have a razor sharp edge that will dig into the media. Units without the brake can be damaged by handling as well. The danger is reduced if the heads are parked since the linear shift is smaller for a given amount of rotation but how many systems actually park the drives before powering off or even have a park for a person to use before transport. Of all the units I've collected over the years ( less than 10 I'll admit ) the most comon failure was a surface failure. Dwight > >They were built in relatively dirty environments compared to today's >clean rooms, out of bits that were very high precision *then* but pretty >crappy now. If I can walk into my local SKF or Timken stockist and pick >up the incredibly obscure bearings for my gearbox off the shelf, why not >a hard disk? > >Gordon. > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jul 29 18:56:57 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation Message-ID: <200507292356.QAA09366@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" ---snip--- > >Any machine's going to eventually fail due to natural chip destruction >(50 - 100 years?), but anything with a mechanical nature's probably >going to fail long before that. > >cheers > >Jules > > Hi Jules All machines with bearings should be periodically run to distribute the grease. If not, they will fail sooner than one that isn't periodically exercised. Dwight From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Jul 29 18:58:04 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:58:04 -0700 Subject: How to remove disk from MPI 9448 and prepare it for shipping? Message-ID: I have a MPI 9448 cartridge drive that has a cartridge in it that I need to remove and I also need to prep the drive to be moved. Anyone know how to do this? I don't know if I can power it on or not. The power cord to the system has been cut off and was 3ph 220 anyway. If the drive just takes 110VAC 1ph I can probably get an extension cord to it. Otherwise I need to know how to get the cartridge out without power. Joe Joe, The top cover can be removed by taking out the two screws on the sides. Then slide the entire top cover (black) to the rear. Now you find the door release solenoid right behind the cartridge door. You can release it manually with a long thin screwdriver. You should be able to fold the door down, which will break the magnetic seal. By pulling the door down, the carriage assembly will move up and forward and the cartridge is riding on Teflon grooved rails via four pins. Just slide it out. If it is wedged or won't come loose, there is a worse case scenario to remove the entire carriage. Loosen the 6 screws on one side only of the carriage assembly. They are at the top on the sides. Don't take them out. The bottom of the carriage side can be pulled out enough to come off the guide pins and lift up and toward the front. There are two arms attached to the front door and the carriage. It is easier to remove if you disconnect the arms, but I've done it without disconnecting. I was factory tech support on these drives and the Hawk/Falcon/Lark for 10 years up to 1986. I may have a manual or two, but unfortunately don't have any parts. Incidentally, the designer of the 9448 is VP of engineering here at my new employer, WD. Billy Pettit From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Jul 29 18:59:22 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:59:22 -0700 Subject: How to remove disk from MPI 9448 and prepare it for shipping? Message-ID: I have a MPI 9448 cartridge drive that has a cartridge in it that I need to remove and I also need to prep the drive to be moved. Anyone know how to do this? I don't know if I can power it on or not. The power cord to the system has been cut off and was 3ph 220 anyway. If the drive just takes 110VAC 1ph I can probably get an extension cord to it. Otherwise I need to know how to get the cartridge out without power. Joe Joe, The top cover can be removed by taking out the two screws on the sides. Then slide the entire top cover (black) to the rear. Now you find the door release solenoid right behind the cartridge door. You can release it manually with a long thin screwdriver. You should be able to fold the door down, which will break the magnetic seal. By pulling the door down, the carriage assembly will move up and forward and the cartridge is riding on Teflon grooved rails via four pins. Just slide it out. If it is wedged or won't come loose, there is a worse case scenario to remove the entire carriage. Loosen the 6 screws on one side only of the carriage assembly. They are at the top on the sides. Don't take them out. The bottom of the carriage side can be pulled out enough to come off the guide pins and lift up and toward the front. There are two arms attached to the front door and the carriage. It is easier to remove if you disconnect the arms, but I've done it without disconnecting. I was factory tech support on these drives and the Hawk/Falcon/Lark for 10 years up to 1986. I may have a manual or two, but unfortunately don't have any parts. Incidentally, the designer of the 9448 is VP of engineering here at my new employer, WD. Billy Pettit From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Jul 29 19:15:23 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:15:23 -0700 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation Message-ID: Jules Richardson wrote: > Because they were never sold presumably, unlike gearbox bearings. > Presumably there are parts of a hard disk that never left the factory > except in a complete drive. Nah, all bearings are standard. Gordon. No, not on disk drives. Some are the standard size, but lubricants, especially grease, are unique to disk drives. The grease had a bad habit of out gassing hydrocarbons, which eventually cover the head and media surfaces. Disk drive lubrication became such a science that eventually only one or two companies would meet the standards. Bearings also had a bad habit of allowing particles to pass through them and cause head crashes as flying heights came down. Bearings then moved to labyrinth seals. They look like standard bearings, but they are not. Billy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 29 18:50:24 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:50:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: <42EA94EF.3010002@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jul 29, 5 09:43:27 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > That's a secondary issue. Once you have something that looks like an > > ST506 drive to any controller you care to name, and which stores the > > bitstream in semicondcutor memory, you can then consider a server that > > loads images from, say, a SCSI drive into that memory. > > I think you're overthinking this. I can't see it being that hard to > adapt the mechanical bits of a different drive to a given set of > electronics. Come to that, I don't really see how it could be that hard Maybe you want to try interfacing the HDA from a modern drive, with unknown embedded servo patterns, etc, to the electronics from an ST506. I don't think that's totally trivial. > to repair ST506 drives, assuming they had not suffered a catastrophic > head crash. OK, I have an ST412 (maybe an ST506, it's one of the early ones) where the hall effect sensor in the spindle motor has failed. Now, it should be possible given a moderate clean room to dismantle the heads and platters (and that's the only way that spindle motor will come out), but then what? It was put together with a press, there are probably ferrofluid seals on the shaft, etc. It's not going to be easy to take apart and get togerther again. I know I don't have the tools to do it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 29 18:44:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:44:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: How to remove disk from MPI 9448 and prepare it for shipping? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050729150823.008d0de0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jul 29, 5 03:08:23 pm Message-ID: > > I have a MPI 9448 cartridge drive that has a cartridge in it that I I am assuming this is the same as a DRE 9448 or CDC 9448 (which are the same unit). It's a frontloader with one removable platter (1 data surface, 1 servo surface) and 3 fixed platters (5 data surfaces, 1 servo surface) > need to remove and I also need to prep the drive to be moved. Anyone know Unless you have both the outer cover for the pack (unlike DEC RL's etc, the cover is _not_ stored inside the drive when you put the pack in) and the shipping cover for inside the drive, it's safer to ship this unit with the removeable pack in place. The manaul says there should be a catridge in place at all times, whether operating or not. Anyway, to remove the pack, take off the top cover (screws on the back), and check the heads are fully retracted. If they're not, they're probably ruined anyway!, but you might as well pull the positioner coil back by hand. Accroding to the service manual, to release the door without power, you insert a thin blade (the manual suggests an old steel ruler) in the slot under the door, roughtly in the middle, and slide it towards the right side of the drive. This with release the door catch, you then open the door (which lifts the removeable pack off the spindle) and slide the pack out. While you're inside, you'll see a metal bar with 2 pins, one sticking out each side, screwed to the top of the positioner. Remove it, engage the pin closest to the mounting hole in the hole on the positioner carriage, and put the screw back in. This locks the heads at the home position (for reference, the other pin holds the heads in the right position over a revolving disk to do the head alignment). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 29 18:58:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:58:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: <42EABA2F.2070004@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jul 30, 5 00:22:23 am Message-ID: > > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Because they were never sold presumably, unlike gearbox bearings. > > Presumably there are parts of a hard disk that never left the factory > > except in a complete drive. > > Nah, all bearings are standard. Yes, and the spindle motor bearings in an ST506 are probably standard too (although with considerably less run-out than any car gearbox bearing I've seen!). The problems are : 1) Fittlng new beraings to the spindle motor (which was assembled with a press, and which wasn't designed to ever come apart 2) Bearing failure is not a common problem in these drives. Other parts are a lot more speciallised. -tony From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jul 29 19:25:58 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:25:58 +0100 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42EAC916.6040002@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > OK, I have an ST412 (maybe an ST506, it's one of the early ones) where > the hall effect sensor in the spindle motor has failed. Now, it should be > possible given a moderate clean room to dismantle the heads and platters > (and that's the only way that spindle motor will come out), but then > what? It was put together with a press, there are probably ferrofluid > seals on the shaft, etc. It's not going to be easy to take apart and get > togerther again. I know I don't have the tools to do it. Can you get at any rotating part of the motor? Simple enough to graft on your own hall-effect sensor... Gordon. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jul 29 19:41:43 2005 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:41:43 -0700 Subject: DR DOS 5.0 In-Reply-To: <575131af05072911234bfa1bad@mail.gmail.com> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C369@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <575131af0507280922502bedaa@mail.gmail.com> <42E999E2.40500@deltasoft.com> <575131af05072911234bfa1bad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42EACCC7.10409@deltasoft.com> Liam Proven wrote: > On 7/29/05, Gene Buckle wrote: > > >>The bummer is, I've got a CD with the full sources and build chain for >>OpenDOS 7.01 - but can't release it. I got it when Roger Gross and I >>thought that Caldera was going to go the whole route and open source it >>all. That was back in '96. At least I got 'em to release GEM and >>related software. :) > > > Aha! Another FreeGEM type. Hi, Gene! > > Yes, I have one of those CDs, too, personally given into my hand by > Bryan Sparks. Ah, well. > The build system was a nightmare on wheels. Only took 40 minutes or so on the machine I was using at the time though. It uses something like 3 or 4 different C compilers, at least 2 different assemblers and some wild batch files. :) I'm going to have to slap another box together and see if I can't build a set of disks again.... g. -- -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 19:43:52 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:43:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Disk Drive question In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050729192206.00b31b60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050729192206.00b31b60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 7/29/05, Joe R. wrote: > Does anyone know if the M8357 (the RX-01 controller for the PDP-8) will > work with the DSD-440 drives? Someone here needs to read some RX-01 disks > on a PDP-8 >>>ASAP<<< and they think that this combination will work but I > don't think so. I have a good DSD-440 drive system but I don't have the DSD > controller for the PDP-8. I also have a M8357 but no RX-01 drive system! >From memory, the DSD interface is 26-pins. The RX01/RX02 interface is 40 pins. Beyond simple wire count, AFAIK, the interfaces are entirely different. In each case there is a semi-intellegent drive attached to a fairly dumb host controller, but there was no attempt on the part of DSD to imitate the DEC controller-to-drive protocol. The DSD interface _is_ register-level compatible, but everything in the middle is unique to each brand of drive system. -ethan From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jul 29 21:30:28 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:30:28 -0500 Subject: Major SX-64 acquisition (and some other stuff) Message-ID: <20050729213028.7e3ac972.chenmel@earthlink.net> Today at work what I was really hoping to happen did happen. I was given three working Commodore SX-64 machines. We are in the process of consolidating to fit the lab into a smaller space and they're throwing away tons of stuff. There is a fourth SX-64 still in occasional use, and I was able to get these machines by promising that if the one at work fails I will bring in one of these to use in it's place. So I have all three machines, but they're essentially 'non-transferrable' until we come up with a replacement for the one on a fixture. Which will probably happen eventually (and then I'll probably get a fourth SX-64.) I also got a whole pile of mid-years DOS clone machines and misc. The three most interesting machines are 1. An 'Expansion Box' chassis, i.e. a passive backplane with a card in it and a card with a wide cable on it, meant to plug into another chassis that has the CPU. and 2. An old Wyse 386 machine that has a fairly curious construction. The CPU is on a card plugged into a 'passive' backplane, and the Hard Drive controller plugs in planar to the backplane. The HD controller appears to be a fairly standard 'AT' type controller. This machine also has no 'standard' PC-type keyboard connector. There's a snap in connector similar to a telephone connector, and on the same bracket area, a 9 pin connector. There's a VGA ISA card plugged into the system, but is it possible the machine would work with a serial console? The 'CPU' cards plugged into the backplane are complex, with a bridge connecting two of them on the opposite side, parallel to the backplane connectors. 3. (probably least interesting) An ALR 386 system. The big classic 'full AT' case and motherboard. The CPU is a 386DX-16 and it also has the '387 coprocessor. Anyhow, I consider it all a fairly good 'score' though the SX-64's greatly eclipse all the PeeCee boxes. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jul 29 21:34:39 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:34:39 -0500 Subject: Jolt 6502 In-Reply-To: References: <42EA588A.10402@atarimuseum.com> <42EA8D3B.900@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20050729213439.4eb33f37.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:22:04 -0500 Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/29/05, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Ethan, > > > > Does it have any clear photo's of the board? If I could get a > > good > > look at it, I wouldn't mind spending some time to make a replica of > > it, I'm doing this for a history presentation project of the > > original prototype 2600 I am working on. > > I have the magazine at home so I can check tonight, but I'm not sure > there's a picture at all, clear or not. This featured section is a > dense listing, like classified ads, of dozens of machines per page > with feature descriptions and pricing. There are some pictures, but > the largest of them will be under 2" square. > > It's a nice snapshot of what was available for sale (including one > that I _have_ seen on eBay, but is still elusive, the Intercept Jr), > but even back then, the intent was to list some basic features so > people could follow up on what looked interesting. > There are relatively full docs for the Intercept Jr. available. I spent some time chasing them down when I picked up a large (high two digit) quantity of 6100 processors. I have the Intercept, Jr. docs in PDF format, including schematics. The person I got them from may also be on this list. From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jul 30 00:06:46 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:06:46 -0500 Subject: For pickup only in Austin, TX, USA, Earth -- HP-85, HP-86B, docs, peripherals Message-ID: <42EB0AE6.90703@pacbell.net> Attention classiccmp-ers near Austin, Texas: I am running out of room, so it is time to triage. Over the years I had assembled nice HP-85, HP-85, and HP-87XM systems, along with docs, accessories, software, etc, with the intention to one day write an emulator for this family. Well, I got bogged down in my other emulators, web sites, and real life, and somebody beat me to the punch (oddly, it isn't easy to find -- you'd think one of the hp 8x sites would promote it. it is here: http://www2.akso.de/files/series_80/Emulator/Series_80_Emu_Win.zip). I'm keeping the 87 since it is the most capable. The 85 and 86B must go. These are for pick up only in SW Austin -- if I wanted to pack them well enough for shipment and slog them over to fedex, I'd instead sell them on ebay. I am also unwilling to hold on to these for a long time (say, more than a month). No cherry picking either -- take it all and throw out the stuff you don't want whem I'm not looking. Sorry for being inflexible. System #1 -- HP-85 ------------------ 00085-15004 matrix rom 00085-15002 plotter rom 00085-15001 mass storage rom 00085-15003 input/output rom 82903A 16K memory module 82937A HPIB interface spare printer drive belt (I don't think it is needed) the built in printer works, but there is uneven printing (might be print head, might be paper) three rolls of thermal paper in apparently great shape HP-85 financial decisions pack tape five used DC-100 tapes three shrinkwrapped DC-100 tapes a box containing three pounds of unused DC-100 tapes xerox copy of the hp 85 field service manual 82939A opt 002 serial interface (in box) standard pac software manual (no software) HP-85 owner's manual and programming guide matrix rom manual i/o programming guide System #2 -- HP-86B ------------------- built-in 128 KB RAM built-in HPIB interface external HP 82913A 12" B&W monitor HP dust covers for the computer and monitor 82939A serial interface monitor instructions HP 85 owner's manual and programming guide HP 85 i/o programming guide File/80 owner's manual Word/80 owner's manual, software serial interface owner's manual visicalc plus manual and three 5.25" floppy disks Lock Software Market 86.1 technical analysis owner's manual perhaps others If more than one person is interested, I'll pick one based on an unspecified weighting of response time, how easy they make it on me, and interest. Thanks. From arron.owns at gmail.com Sat Jul 30 04:10:59 2005 From: arron.owns at gmail.com (Arron McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:10:59 -0700 Subject: my speccy In-Reply-To: <575131af050729112555b9e74c@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0507281226407134ab@mail.gmail.com> <1122585412.17753.133.camel@weka.localdomain> <575131af050729112555b9e74c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > For my money, one of the most impressive projects is Adam Dunkels' > multitasking OS for 8-bitters, Contiki. Amazing stuff; includes TCP/IP > and even Ethernet support on some hardware. I'm actually working with an 8052 microcontroller port of his tcp/ip stack for the embedded network device I've been designing. I'm using it with an ISA nic and an 89C51RD2 chip from Atmel, should be finished for the end of the month for an electronics competition called Bright Sparks. Similar to picnic.sf.net. The port of it to the Magic-1 Homebrew CPU was really brilliant. also, I got out a little book from the library on programming the z80 in assembler :) -Arron From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jul 30 09:19:54 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:19:54 -0400 Subject: HP 9825 computer/calculator manuals & Re: HPL manual request Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050730101954.008a8b00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Oops! I forgot to add that HP refers the HPL users to the HP 9825 Calculator manual for more details on HPL. There's an auction of E-bay right now for a set of HP 9825 manuals. That's what reminded me about the referral. Joe At 09:58 AM 7/27/05 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >I was able to find HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update >(09826-90040) on bitsavers website. I have HPL Operating Manual >(98614-90010). Does anyone know if HPL Condensed Reference (98614-90020) >is archived anywhere? Is there any other references available for HPL 2.1? > >Hutch I just finished packing a BUNCH of HP manuals and shipping them to Al to be scanned and archived. In the pile are several HPL manuals, a manual for BTL (Board Test Language, a variation of HPL that was used on the 3060 circuit card test station) and a photocopy of the HPL Condensed Reference Manual. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jul 30 09:11:30 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:11:30 -0400 Subject: HP 9115 computer on E-bay Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050730101130.008a8460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Located in Melbourne Australia Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jul 30 09:31:19 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:31:19 -0400 Subject: E-bay sillyness! Ultratech HP Computer 9826A starting at $2000! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050730103119.008a2de0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Starting at about 100 what's it's worth! AND no pictures and no description! How much do you want to bet that this seller's feedback never progresses above what it is now (ZERO)? Joe From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Jul 30 09:54:51 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:54:51 -0700 Subject: HP 9825 computer/calculator manuals & Re: HPL manual request In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050730101954.008a8b00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050730101954.008a8b00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200507300754.51284.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Just to let everybody know, I'm had already been bidding on those manuales... Lyle On Saturday 30 July 2005 07:19, Joe R. wrote: > Oops! I forgot to add that HP refers the HPL users to the HP 9825 > Calculator manual for more details on HPL. There's an auction of E-bay > right now for a set of HP 9825 manuals. That's what reminded me about the > referral. > > Q QcategoryZ16210QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem> > > > Joe > > At 09:58 AM 7/27/05 -0400, you wrote: > >I was able to find HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update > >(09826-90040) on bitsavers website. I have HPL Operating Manual > >(98614-90010). Does anyone know if HPL Condensed Reference (98614-90020) > >is archived anywhere? Is there any other references available for HPL 2.1? > > > >Hutch > > I just finished packing a BUNCH of HP manuals and shipping them to Al to > be scanned and archived. In the pile are several HPL manuals, a manual for > BTL (Board Test Language, a variation of HPL that was used on the 3060 > circuit card test station) and a photocopy of the HPL Condensed Reference > Manual. > > Joe -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 30 10:18:43 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:18:43 -0700 Subject: HP85 simulator Message-ID: I got bogged down in my other emulators, web sites, and real life, and somebody beat me to the punch (oddly, it isn't easy to find -- you'd think one of the hp 8x sites would promote it. -- ugh.. windows only and no sources. anyone know anything about this (mentioned in the readme) Thanks: ------- Christoph Gie?elink for Emu42 sources (used to start this emulator) From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jul 30 11:01:37 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:01:37 -0500 Subject: HP85 simulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42EBA461.3070204@pacbell.net> Al Kossow wrote: > I got bogged down in my other emulators, web > sites, and real life, and somebody beat me to the punch (oddly, it isn't > easy to > find -- you'd think one of the hp 8x sites would promote it. > > -- > > ugh.. windows only and no sources. I asked the author (Olivier De Smet) about his project. His reply: - Yes I hope to continue to develop it this summer -I hope to be able to use an HPIB pcmcia card to connect directly HPIB devices, I don't have an ISA HPIB card). - Next I hope to include a plotter emulation (I have enough infos now) - ... - I have also some similar project for the HP85B and HP75C (same processor) but I don't have enough documentations - The HP85B emulation isn't operative due to the tape and printer lack of information - Then the capricorn emulation isn't perferct (doesn't pass the hardware test HP85 rom) - For the HP75C I don't have enough info about the I/O adresses. So there is many thing to do ... For the source, I need to clean it a lot before release it I think. From GOOI at oce.nl Sat Jul 30 11:50:13 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:50:13 +0200 Subject: HP85 simulator Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1DC8@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > I asked the author (Olivier De Smet) about his project. His reply: > - Yes I hope to continue to develop it this summer > - I hope to be able to use an HPIB pcmcia card to connect directly > HPIB devices, I don't have an ISA HPIB card). *IIRC*, I have an ISA adapter card with an IEEE-488 (?) female connector at the plate. I can check this monday. I am donating the card for the good cause ... if Olivier lives in The Netherlands. Otherwise, it would be nice to get shipping costs refunded. - Henk, PA8PDP. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 30 11:49:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:49:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: <42EAC916.6040002@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jul 30, 5 01:25:58 am Message-ID: > Can you get at any rotating part of the motor? > Simple enough to graft on your own hall-effect sensor... YEs, and kludge on magnets to give the right number of pulses per revolution with the right timing.... -tony From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Jul 30 13:06:07 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:06:07 -0500 Subject: Jolt 6502 In-Reply-To: <20050729213439.4eb33f37.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <42EA588A.10402@atarimuseum.com> <42EA8D3B.900@atarimuseum.com> <20050729213439.4eb33f37.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050730130607.5694ba6d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 21:34:39 -0500 Scott Stevens wrote: > On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:22:04 -0500 > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > On 7/29/05, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > Ethan, > > > > > > Does it have any clear photo's of the board? If I could get > > > a good > > > look at it, I wouldn't mind spending some time to make a replica > > > of it, I'm doing this for a history presentation project of the > > > original prototype 2600 I am working on. > > > > I have the magazine at home so I can check tonight, but I'm not sure > > there's a picture at all, clear or not. This featured section is a > > dense listing, like classified ads, of dozens of machines per page > > with feature descriptions and pricing. There are some pictures, but > > the largest of them will be under 2" square. > > > > It's a nice snapshot of what was available for sale (including one > > that I _have_ seen on eBay, but is still elusive, the Intercept Jr), > > but even back then, the intent was to list some basic features so > > people could follow up on what looked interesting. > > > > There are relatively full docs for the Intercept Jr. available. I > spent some time chasing them down when I picked up a large (high two > digit) quantity of 6100 processors. I have the Intercept, Jr. docs in > PDF format, including schematics. The person I got them from may also > be on this list. > Just follow up on my own last message, I have made the Intercept, Jr. docs and IM6100 family datasheets available at : http://sasteven.multics.org/IM6100/ Please mirror to your site if you wish. -Scott From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Jul 30 13:15:32 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:15:32 +0100 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42EBC3C4.8050908@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>Can you get at any rotating part of the motor? >>Simple enough to graft on your own hall-effect sensor... > > > YEs, and kludge on magnets to give the right number of pulses per > revolution with the right timing.... Timing and pulse count needn't be that important. You'd feed the output from "your" sensor into a PLL to derive the correct output frequency. Of course at this stage, it's probably easier to build new hard drive mechanicals from scratch. Seriously. Look at how cheap and attainable CNC lathes are these days. Gordon. From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 30 11:47:11 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:47:11 +0000 Subject: CF & IDE adapter card for Apple IIs In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050609184537.02ca21a8@mail.n.ml.org> Message-ID: <20050730204252.UUTM27245.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Hi, Check this out: http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/mai n.php Great way to do instead of relying on aging floppies. Cheers, Wizard From cem14 at cornell.edu Sat Jul 30 16:30:29 2005 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:30:29 -0500 Subject: A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing References: <42E4A38D.1BC26FD5@cs.ubc.ca> <42E518D1.C845DE45@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> <42EA91CC.74278D19@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <42EBF175.A01099C9@cornell.edu> Brent Hilpert wrote: > > The first instance of closed-loop control using a digital computer > > in an industrial setting supposedly happened at a Texaco refinery > > in Port Arthur in March 15, 1959, using an RW-300 computer > > (does anybode have a good reference on this?). > > I have a (vague) recollection of seeing an article in the IEEE > "Annals of the History of Computing" publication that mentioned this. > A search for Port Arthur found the following link to the table of contents for > the Spring 1995 issue: > > http://csdl2.computer.org/persagen/DLAbsToc.jsp?resourcePath=/dl/mags/an/&toc=comp/mags/an/1995/01/a1toc.xml > > which contains an article titled "Pioneering Work in the Field of Computer > Process Control". > I can't view the entire article online, so I'm not sure if it is the article I > recall or not > (.. saw it several years ago in the paper version). Thanks for the citation; there is indeed a description of that specific event in that paper (I've got hold of it now): > The computer system. The Ramo-Woolridge computer used at Texaco had an > 8,000-word drum memory. Inputs to the computer included 26 > flow rates, 72 temperatures, two pressures, and three propylene > analyses. > Carlos. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 30 19:43:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data General sign Message-ID: Someone should grab this: http://cgi.ebay.com/Data-General-Corporation-large-metal-sign-NICE_W0QQitemZ7173047135QQcategoryZ10806QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Currently (5:50p PST) $25 buy it now option. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 30 19:46:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More Data General goodies Message-ID: Looks like just an edge connector for the DG Nova bus: http://cgi.ebay.com/Prototype-frame-for-Data-General-Nova-minicomputers_W0QQitemZ5225135841QQcategoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Also a couple Nova 2 & 3 front panels currently up for bid. Finally, a guy with the ominous eBay handle of "gold-snipper" has a DG Nova 4 in his eBay store: http://cgi.ebay.com/Data-General-DG-Nova-4-minicomputer_W0QQitemZ5219109399QQcategoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 30 19:58:29 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Data General Aviion 3700 drive chassis (OT) Message-ID: Sorry, but I need in a hurry 1-2 hard drive chassis for my Data General Aviion 3700 server. It's a quad P-III Xeon with 1GB main memory and RAID: pretty bad-ass server basically. I'm trying to get it up and running to replace the venerable VCF web server (a late 1990s era P-PRO) so I can finally get some new services installed (and hopefully to start hosting mirrors of different archives). The drive chassis are specific to this Aviion server. They hold 3.5" hard drives...Seagate types where LC are the last two letters of the part number, e.g. ST39102LC. I guess I could use a drive also. I have three installed and want to configure them in a RAID 5 arrangement but am having trouble making it work with SuSE Linux (9.3). So I'm thinking to add a 4th drive to make as the boot/OS drive. I guess as a way off-topic side question, does anyone know how to properly configure a RAID 5 in Linux so that I can also boot from it? Everything I've read so far in Google is way outdated. Checked on eBay for the parts (which is why I found all that keen DG stuff I posted) but nothing's come up so far :( Please respond directly to me so the list doesn't get cluttered with this crap. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sat Jul 30 20:51:02 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:51:02 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200507291634.JAA09132@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200507291634.JAA09132@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <42EC2E86.9000709@compsys.to> >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi > For those that are interested in such things, they >have found a formula to calculate any digits of >PI. The only problem seems to be that it can only >do this for the Hexadecimal digits and not the >decimal digits. They are still looking for an equation >that will do it for decimal digits. > This can be used to verify ones PI calculations. >I saw the formula in a Science News about 2 years ago. > Jerome Fine replies: For those individuals who like to use TECO, the following file (PI.TEC) was sent to me in 1998 by Nicholas Zymaris: GZ0J\UNQN"E 40UN ' BUH BUV HK QN< J BUQ QN*10/3UI QI< \+2*10+(QQ*QI)UA B L K QI*2-1UJ QA/QJUQ QA-(QQ*QJ)-2\ 10 at I// -1%I > QQ/10UT QH+QT+48UW QW-58"E 48UW %V ' QV"N QV^T ' QWUV QQ-(QT*10)UH > QV^T @^A/ /HKEX$$ The last two characters are not dollar signs!!!!!!! Under RT-11, enter the command: MUNG PI.TEC nn The default "nn" is 40. As far as I can understand, the result is truncated after "nn" digits. However, checking the values shows a problem between 50 and 51 digits. If anyone is able to use this file and check the values, it would be appreciated if you could verify for 100 digits. Also, eventually, it would be interesting to figure out the multi-precision decimal evaluation algorithm. If you can print out the value for both hex and decimal, that would also help! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sat Jul 30 20:52:09 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:52:09 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17130.13616.108000.438133@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42E6FEAB.8070505@compsys.to> <17127.33815.474000.806769@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42E829A4.7030500@compsys.to> <17128.55747.222000.899799@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42E983E4.7000900@compsys.to> <17130.13616.108000.438133@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42EC2EC9.3050404@compsys.to> >Paul Koning wrote: >Depending on how deep you want to dig, if you like primes, you should >get yourself some cryptography textbooks. A good primer, without a >lot of serious math, is Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography". If >you want to understand the math in depth, get "Handbook of Applied >Cryptography" (I think that's the correct title) by Menezes et al. I >have both, though I'm stuck at around chapter 2 in the latter because >the math goes beyond what I know. > >I think Knuth has a discussion of the M-R test -- surely you have >Knuth, right? If not, you need to fix that. > >The M-R test is a "probabilistic primality test" -- a fast way of >testing a number for being prime that has a certain probability of >giving the wrong answer. You can do the test repeatedly, and if the >tests are done right so they are independent, the test will become >more and more accurate. This test is generally used in crypto >programs because it is fast. > >There are also tests for primality that are exact rather than >probabilistic -- those are MUCH slower. For multi-thousand-bit >numbers, people use M-R unless they absolutely, positively require a >guarantee of primality and can afford the hours or days of CPU time >investment. An example: the Diffie-Hellman parameters for the IKE key >exchange protocol (part of IPsec) were subjected to the full primality >test, not just M-R. > Jerome Fine replies: Interesting - THANK YOU!! I did a google on the topic. While my interest at the moment is really limited to small primes (currently defined as less than 1000 digits although at present I will initially limit myself to 32 bits), I might want to look elsewhere in the future. I had sort of noticed the M-R in looking at google for the very largest primes which are currently almost 10 million decimal digits, but had not attempted to really understand the M-R test. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sat Jul 30 20:53:04 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:53:04 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <200507291536.j6TFaDHe067239@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42EC2F00.70804@compsys.to> Johnny Billquist wrote: >>Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > >>As for endian issues, I can define the most significant word to be >>at either end, but I tend to think that I will place the most significant >>at the high end of the word since this allows FORTRAN 77 to use >>octal to output the value correctly with 64 bit floating point values. >> >??? Not sure what you actually say here. Floating point values hardly have >anything to do with this. Pick whatever byte order you want, and stick >with it. Output is something you'll have to figure out anyway, and you >deal with any byte order you decided on then. Either way is not that >difficult. However, I'd recommend using little-endian, since that is the >"natural" order of the PDP-11, and F77 on the machine. That means you can >let it deal with 16-bit quantities natively without having to to byte >swapping. > Jerome Fine replies: Please define little-endian and big endian. Also, I should have explained what I meant! Specifically, it should be possible to use floating point variables as arguments to subroutines and let FORTRAN 77 take care of allocating the actual storage by doing so: 1000 FORMAT ( O25, O25 ) REAL * 8 Value1, Value2 CALL I64ADD ( Value1, Value2 ) TYPE 1000, Value1, Value2 I64ADD:: Mov R0,-(SP) Mov R1,-(SP) Mov 2(R5),R0 Mov 4(R5),R1 Add (R0)+,(R1)+ Adc (R1) Add (R0)+,(R1)+ Adc (R1)+ Add (R0)+,(R1)+ Adc (R1)+ Add (R0)+,(R1)+ Mov (SP)+,R1 Mov (SP)+,R0 Return .End This could be the code to add two 64 bit unsigned integers with the names of Value1 and Value2 which each occupy 64 bits. Of course, I could also use: INTEGER * 2 I2Val1 ( 4 ), I2Val2 ( 4 ) EQUIVALENCE ( Value1, I2Val1 ), ( Value2, I2Val2 ) but "REAL * 8" also allows the output in octal as a single 64 bit value which is quite convenient and allows me to use a single index when I need a vector of values. If I am correct, the above code assumes that the low order words/bytes are the least significant and the high order words/bytes are the most significant. Is this little-endian or big-endian? NOTE that if the most significant bit is in the most significant word and byte (as per the above MACRO-11 subroutine), then the most significant of everything is in the highest address of everything. HOWEVER, from looking at the order of bytes, words and bits in the PDP-11 manual (Chapter 10 of Microcomputer Processor Handbook), when the most significant bit is in the word with the lowest address, the most significant bit (actually the sign bit and the exponent of real floating point numbers) is in byte 1 rather than byte 0. This is not a problem per say within FORTRAN 77 as it clearly knows about these endian issues, but I found it a bit confusing at first until I realized that the bytes seemed to be interchanged within each word when the most significant bit is defined to be in word 0. On the other hand, if the most significant bit is in the byte and word with the highest address, then in FORTRAN 77 under RT-11, outputting Value1 in octal with this order of significance shows a 64 bit octal value with the most significant bit on the left and the least significant on the right. Can you please comment on the endian question? Also, am I correct about octal output of Value1? Thank you for your comments and any answers! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sat Jul 30 20:54:05 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:54:05 -0400 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <200507291536.j6TFaDHe067239@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42EC2F3D.1080901@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: >>Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > >>More seriously, if I am using all 16 bits as unsigned integers, then >>the high order bit can't be easily eliminated. >> >True. And if you don't use all 16 bits, then the MUL instruction deals >with the sign itself anyway, so there is no need to take absolute values >and so on either... In short, a good suggestion in theory, but one that >don't work in real life. > >But of course you still haven't reflected on the fact that in FORTRAN-77 >you can do 32-bit integer multiplication already... > Jerome Fine replies: OK. I just checked how FORTRAN 77 internally handles: INTEGER * 4 ITest1, ITest2, ITest3 REAL * 8 RTest1, RTest2, RTest3 ITest1 = 65536 ITest2 = 10 ITest1 = ITest1 * ITest2 The integer instruction Mul allows only 2 signed 16 bit numbers that then produce a 32 bit number. When 2 signed 32 bit numbers are multiplied, FORTRAN 77 first converts them to floating point numbers, multiplies them as 2 real 64 bit numbers and converts the result back to an integer. The MulD floating point instruction is used plus the conversions in each direction. What I am confused about is why FORTRAN 77 first places the 32 bit integers on the stack before converting to a real 64 bit floating point number. As far as I can determine, the order of the 2 * 16 bit words on the stack is the same as in memory, so I do not understand why a direct access to memory is not used - unless I am incorrect in my interpretation of the order of the words on the stack - with the conversion both from integer to real and real to integer. Johnny (or anyone else), can you please comment on if it is necessary for FORTRAN 77 to use the stack? If it is not needed, why does FORTRAN 77 use this approach? In addition, the following code is just as efficient in the number of instructions executed, although repeated use takes more overall code in the file to be executed (as opposed to a subroutine call): RTest1 = ITest1 RTest2 = ITest2 RTest3 = RTest1 * RTest2 ITest3 = RTest3 >>Of course another >>method is to keep all the values below 10,000 decimal which >>can then allow me to use FORTRAN much more easily. But >>I really prefer to use the full 64 bits. >> >What 64 bits??? Native integers are 16 bits. You also happen to have >32-bit integers in FORTRAN, but there aren't any 64-bit integers. You have >64-bit entities for REAL*8, but they don't hold 64 bits of mantissa, apart >from the rounding errors always expose yourself to when using FP. > I think I explained this in another e-mail. I use: INTEGER * 2 ITest1 ( 100, 4 ) REAL * 8 RTest1 ( 100 ) EQUIVALENCE ( RTest1, ITest1 ) with RTest1 being the actual variable I use in subroutine calls which reduces the complexity (within FORTRAN 77) when an indexed variable is used. >>On the other hand, if I >>use the sieve method to find the primes, I don't need either >>multiplication or division, just 64 bit adding and 64 bit compares, >>probably increments by 2 and 4 and of course conversion of >>64 bit values to decimal output. The last can also be done by >>repeated subtraction of powers of 10, so again no division. >> >Why use the sieve? Unless you have lots of memory, and are trying to list >every prime you can find, it's pretty inefficient. And you don't have lots >of memory in a PDP-11. Assuming you represent every odd number with one >bit (no need for the even ones), and assuming that you can stuff an array >of 50Kbytes, that will still only give you primes less than 400.000. >Absolutely no problem representing that in a 32-bit integer. > >I'd go for a simple factorization instead, if you want to search for >larger primes. And then you need division and remainder. > The sieve method allows for repeated use of the sieve buffer which, for optimum use is 5005 bytes in length which is: 5 * 7 * 11 * 13 This allows the first 6 primes (2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13) to be handled without having to specifically eliminate them from the sieve buffer which eventually makes the search much more efficient. For a 32 bit search (which allows up to values of just over 2 billion), this requires a table of primes of about 5000 elements PLUS a table of just where within the sieve buffer the next elimination takes place (for primes greater than 13) which also needs about 5000 elements. That adds up to about 45 KBytes plus another 5 KBytes for storing the repeated sieve buffer. Without overlays, that leaves about 14 KBytes for code and other data. It might just fit. If I find that the program is fast enough to be reasonable, a 64 bit version is possible, but those 2 tables of 5000 elements of 32 bit values would need to be expanded to 79000 elements of 64 bit values just to attempt to find primes up to 1 trillion. I will address that question when I find that the 32 bit version is working and fast enough to even consider a 64 bit version. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sat Jul 30 21:31:22 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <20050731023122.E0AE73BAD9@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Here is some advice from the HP 9830 service manual. It contains a diagram of the tape path inside the cartridge and gives instructions on how to rethread a tape. http://www.series80.org/Articles/tape-considerations.html **vp From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jul 30 21:40:19 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:40:19 -0400 Subject: Devilish Altair Serial Configuration Problem Message-ID: <005c01c59579$30f6f6c0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: This problem has been beating me up all day so I wanted to throw it out to the group for ideas. In my 8800b, I have a Vector Graphics Bit Streamer serial board (8251 chip) set for standard ports (0/1 parallel, 2 serial data, 3 serial command/status). I modified the Turnkey Monitor to use the ports based on the VG instruction manual. The manual outlines initialization and moving characters in and out. Works perfectly. Now, I want to get standard Microsoft BASIC paper tapes (8k or Extended 4.0) working with this board. However, when I look at the sense switch options, none fit using the Bit Streamer -- the parallel ports are swapped with the serial ports in the order, and the data port comes before the status port (all basically the opposite of what BASIC expects). I also can't seem to find a toggle loader that works properly. So, I decided to pull out a Solid State Music 2p/2s board and try to configure it to work with BASIC. I spent the better part of a day trying different options with no success. Based on some basic testing of the board I believe it works. Has anyone configured an SSM board to successfully work with Microsoft Tape BASIC? What loader did you use? How about getting a standard VG Bit Streamer working with standard MS Basic? As an aside, I'm using Procomm from DOS on an old PC. Can one use the "ASCII Upload" option to move the tape image over the line or should I do something from DOS like "copy 8kbas40.tap com1:"? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jul 30 21:28:28 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:28:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <42EC2F00.70804@compsys.to> References: <200507291536.j6TFaDHe067239@dewey.classiccmp.org> <42EC2F00.70804@compsys.to> Message-ID: <200507310254.WAA18849@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Please define little-endian and big endian. Little-endian and big-endian apply whenever you have a multi-digit value broken up into smaller ordered multi-digit units. (Usually this is for base-2 digits, but it doesn't have to be.) Most often, the smaller units are 8-bit bytes, with the order being memory addressing, but this doesn't have to be so. (An example that violates all of those assumptions is sending multi-bit bytes over a bit-serial line, where the "smaller..units" are individual bits, ordered by chronology on the wire.) As a concrete example, consider the 32-bit value 305,419,896 (decimal), stored in 4 bytes on a computer with 8-bit bytes. 305,419,896 is hex 12345678; the four bytes will have values 12, 34, 56, and 78 (hex). The question is, which comes first? In little-endian, the byte with value 78, the least significant one, comes first, followed by 56, 34, and 12. In big-endian order, it's the other way around: 12, 34, 56, 78. As applied to values in memory, "comes first" generally means "stored at lower-addressed memory". Little-endian is how the x86 family of CPUs works. The VAX also uses little-endian, as do some MIPS systems, and probably others that don't come to my mind immediately. Big-endian is used by the SPARC, the 680x0 family, some MIPS systems, and, again, doubtless others. The PDP-11 is an odd case. The hardware is little-endian, but the hardware is 16-bit. Some languages store 32-bit integers in what we might call "schizophrenic endian": that 12345678 value is stored in four consecutive bytes as 34 12 78 56: it is broken into two 16-bit words with the more-significant one stored first, but those 16-bit words are then stored little-endian in the bytes making them up. Some aspects of the VAX - notably its floating-point layout - are comparably twisted; it's quite impressive to look at the data layouts section of the VAX Architecture Reference Manual and notice how some things are shown in 8-bit columns, some 16, some 32, so that it all looks natural even when it's totally bizarre. > Specifically, it should be possible to use floating point variables > as arguments to subroutines and let FORTRAN 77 take care of > allocating the actual storage by doing so: > 1000 FORMAT ( O25, O25 ) > REAL * 8 Value1, Value2 > CALL I64ADD ( Value1, Value2 ) > TYPE 1000, Value1, Value2 Whether this will do what you want depends on what the implementation does when asked to print a floating-point value in octal. You appear to be assuming it simply prints the bits making up the floating-point number, rather than (as would be more logically consistent) doing a conversion to octal floating point. (I would actually expect to get a compile-time error from using an O format with a REAL*8 value.) > I64ADD:: > Mov R0,-(SP) > Mov R1,-(SP) > Mov 2(R5),R0 > Mov 4(R5),R1 > Add (R0)+,(R1)+ > Adc (R1) > Add (R0)+,(R1)+ > Adc (R1)+ > Add (R0)+,(R1)+ > Adc (R1)+ > Add (R0)+,(R1)+ > Mov (SP)+,R1 > Mov (SP)+,R0 > Return I see two problems here. First, you have to eliminate the postincrement on the second and third ADC instructions. Second, this loses carries resulting from the ADCs. For example, if r1 points to 0x00000000ffffffff and r0 points to 0x0000000000000001, the result will, I think be zero, not the 0x0000000100000000 it should be. (Also, the return instruction is normally spelled "ret", not "return".) > If I am correct, the above code assumes that the low order > words/bytes are the least significant and the high order words/bytes > are the most significant. Right - or at least, it does after you've fixed the bugs. > Is this little-endian or big-endian? Little-endian. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 30 22:55:45 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 23:55:45 -0400 Subject: Devilish Altair Serial Configuration Problem Message-ID: <0IKH00BTH48FHU68@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Devilish Altair Serial Configuration Problem > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:40:19 -0400 > To: "'CCTalk'" > >All: > > This problem has been beating me up all day so I wanted to throw >it out to the group for ideas. > > In my 8800b, I have a Vector Graphics Bit Streamer serial board >(8251 chip) set for standard ports (0/1 parallel, 2 serial data, 3 >serial command/status). I modified the Turnkey Monitor to use the ports >based on the VG instruction manual. The manual outlines initialization >and moving characters in and out. Works perfectly. the base altair boards were com2502 based on the RXrdy and TXempty bits sis not corrospond with 8251. > Now, I want to get standard Microsoft BASIC paper tapes (8k or >Extended 4.0) working with this board. However, when I look at the sense >switch options, none fit using the Bit Streamer -- the parallel ports >are swapped with the serial ports in the order, and the data port comes >before the status port (all basically the opposite of what BASIC >expects). I also can't seem to find a toggle loader that works properly. Will not work. The MITS loader was specific to the mits boards unless you modified them. However then the loaded image (BASIC) will still need the drivers patched. The expected boards were either MITS SIO or the 2SIO. > So, I decided to pull out a Solid State Music 2p/2s board and >try to configure it to work with BASIC. I spent the better part of a day >trying different options with no success. Based on some basic testing of >the board I believe it works. The board may be ok but it will not solve the basic problem of correct IO address and bits within BASIC. > Has anyone configured an SSM board to successfully work with >Microsoft Tape BASIC? What loader did you use? How about getting a >standard VG Bit Streamer working with standard MS Basic? Neither, never had them. Back when faced with the MITs IO and some of the problems of storage I took a different route until I got a disk. I used a MITS SIO-B for the console (address 0/1). The original load was done using a MITS ACR from audio tape for the 8K and the extended 12k. Then the system was stopped and a hand loaded program saved the image to a different tape system as a binary save. The goal being to get away from MITS ACR (unreliable on a good day) or PTape (SLOW!!!). The audio tape system was homebrew and ran NRZI at 4800 and later 9600 using a Redactron digital casette tape deck (saturation recording, not audio). The inital load file was straight binary with a loader that looked for a leader byte and then stuffed memory till byte count equaled zero. Later versions evloved to CPU control of the tape drive and blocked files. > As an aside, I'm using Procomm from DOS on an old PC. Can one >use the "ASCII Upload" option to move the tape image over the line or >should I do something from DOS like "copy 8kbas40.tap com1:"? Using todays tech (a PC) I'd render the BASIC to a binary image on the PC (using a sim if needed) and download it using straight binary transfer (8n1 terminal) to a simple binary loader. At 9600 baud it's plenty fast and low error. Also using a SIM you can get inside the BASIC and find all the IO instructions and change the relevent routines. I had to do that using the ALTAIR8800 front pannel. I stopped using all that when I started using NS* MDS with NS*dos and NS*BASIC back in late 1977. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 30 23:38:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CF & IDE adapter card for Apple IIs In-Reply-To: <20050730204252.UUTM27245.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > Check this out: > > http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/mai > n.php > > Great way to do instead of relying on aging floppies. Yes, but this guy repeated the classic vintage computer blunder, perhaps better known as an "Osborne": "There is only going to be a 4th run of CFFA cards if I can find enough people to build 200 units. So that means I need about 100 interested people. I no longer have time to hand solder boards anymore, and 200 is a large enough quantity to get a reasonable price on machine PCB assembly. I have already started working on version 2.0 of the CFFA board. The main reason for this is to include the bug fixes I have found in the hardware of the current board." Never announce a new version of a product when you're trying to sell the old one. I would've have put in my order if he didn't say he was going to do version 2.0 with bug fixes ;) Interestingly enough, he says he has 60 commitments so far (out of the 100 he requires before he orders up another batch). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From news at computercollector.com Sun Jul 31 00:16:18 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 01:16:18 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? Message-ID: <200507310522.j6V5MKEB085180@keith.ezwind.net> Would love to hear from anyone who attended today -- how'd it go? ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 770 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jul 31 00:24:23 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:24:23 -0700 Subject: CF & IDE adapter card for Apple IIs In-Reply-To: <20050730204252.UUTM27245.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20050730204252.UUTM27245.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: >Hi, > >Check this out: > >http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/mai >n.php > >Great way to do instead of relying on aging floppies. > >Cheers, Wizard Interesting, anyone have any experience with this? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From brain at jbrain.com Sun Jul 31 00:29:19 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:29:19 -0500 Subject: CF & IDE adapter card for Apple IIs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42EC61AF.8050104@jbrain.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > > > >>Check this out: >> >>http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/mai >>n.php >> >>Great way to do instead of relying on aging floppies. >> >> I agree: http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/uIEC/ I put up some prototype board pics tonight. I'm hoping to bring the bigger unit (IDE/CF) for $40 or $50, and the smaller board (CF only) for $20-$30. However, I have no intention of selling v1, so my Osborne is yet to be committed. And, I have one up on the dreher design. Mine takes normal FAT16/FAT32 formatted cards. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun Jul 31 07:56:10 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:56:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CF & IDE adapter card for Apple IIs In-Reply-To: References: <20050730204252.UUTM27245.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jul 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Check this out: > > > > http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/mai > > n.php > > > > Great way to do instead of relying on aging floppies. > > > > Cheers, Wizard > > Interesting, anyone have any experience with this? Yes, works great. One of the coolest gadgets ever for the A2. Steve From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Jul 31 08:37:41 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:37:41 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 Disk Drive question References: <3.0.6.32.20050729192206.00b31b60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000d01c595d5$071cfc80$0100a8c0@screamer> No, it won't work! I think I may have a set of RX-01's, but no controller. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:22 PM Subject: PDP-8 Disk Drive question > Does anyone know if the M8357 (the RX-01 controller for the PDP-8) will > work with the DSD-440 drives? Someone here needs to read some RX-01 disks > on a PDP-8 >>>ASAP<<< and they think that this combination will work but I > don't think so. I have a good DSD-440 drive system but I don't have the > DSD > controller for the PDP-8. I also have a M8357 but no RX-01 drive system! > Anybody have a DSD controller for the PDP-8 that they want to sell or do > some horse trading for? > > Joe > > From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jul 31 08:45:40 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:45:40 -0400 Subject: Devilish Altair Serial Configuration Problem In-Reply-To: <0IKH00BTH48FHU68@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <007301c595d6$23dfd9e0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Allison: The SSM board can emulate different boards using the TI 6011 UAR/T. It can do an IMSAI SIO, a MITS SIO and a generic 8251. So I strapped the board for an "Altair SIO Revision 1" board and when I "upload" the file using Procomm I can see activity on the front panel but I don't think I'm getting a successful load. That's why I wanted to (hopefully) compare someone's working configuration. I have a binary image available but if I don't have the communications down, it won't work either. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 11:56 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Devilish Altair Serial Configuration Problem > >Subject: Devilish Altair Serial Configuration Problem > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:40:19 -0400 > To: "'CCTalk'" > >All: > > This problem has been beating me up all day so I wanted to throw it >out to the group for ideas. > > In my 8800b, I have a Vector Graphics Bit Streamer serial board (8251 >chip) set for standard ports (0/1 parallel, 2 serial data, 3 serial >command/status). I modified the Turnkey Monitor to use the ports based >on the VG instruction manual. The manual outlines initialization and >moving characters in and out. Works perfectly. the base altair boards were com2502 based on the RXrdy and TXempty bits sis not corrospond with 8251. > Now, I want to get standard Microsoft BASIC paper tapes (8k or >Extended 4.0) working with this board. However, when I look at the >sense switch options, none fit using the Bit Streamer -- the parallel >ports are swapped with the serial ports in the order, and the data port >comes before the status port (all basically the opposite of what BASIC >expects). I also can't seem to find a toggle loader that works >properly. Will not work. The MITS loader was specific to the mits boards unless you modified them. However then the loaded image (BASIC) will still need the drivers patched. The expected boards were either MITS SIO or the 2SIO. > So, I decided to pull out a Solid State Music 2p/2s board and try to >configure it to work with BASIC. I spent the better part of a day >trying different options with no success. Based on some basic testing >of the board I believe it works. The board may be ok but it will not solve the basic problem of correct IO address and bits within BASIC. > Has anyone configured an SSM board to successfully work with Microsoft >Tape BASIC? What loader did you use? How about getting a standard VG >Bit Streamer working with standard MS Basic? Neither, never had them. Back when faced with the MITs IO and some of the problems of storage I took a different route until I got a disk. I used a MITS SIO-B for the console (address 0/1). The original load was done using a MITS ACR from audio tape for the 8K and the extended 12k. Then the system was stopped and a hand loaded program saved the image to a different tape system as a binary save. The goal being to get away from MITS ACR (unreliable on a good day) or PTape (SLOW!!!). The audio tape system was homebrew and ran NRZI at 4800 and later 9600 using a Redactron digital casette tape deck (saturation recording, not audio). The inital load file was straight binary with a loader that looked for a leader byte and then stuffed memory till byte count equaled zero. Later versions evloved to CPU control of the tape drive and blocked files. > As an aside, I'm using Procomm from DOS on an old PC. Can one use the >"ASCII Upload" option to move the tape image over the line or should I >do something from DOS like "copy 8kbas40.tap com1:"? Using todays tech (a PC) I'd render the BASIC to a binary image on the PC (using a sim if needed) and download it using straight binary transfer (8n1 terminal) to a simple binary loader. At 9600 baud it's plenty fast and low error. Also using a SIM you can get inside the BASIC and find all the IO instructions and change the relevent routines. I had to do that using the ALTAIR8800 front pannel. I stopped using all that when I started using NS* MDS with NS*dos and NS*BASIC back in late 1977. Allison From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 31 09:58:01 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:58:01 Subject: Id this DEC? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050731095801.3d8fcb0a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found these three items listed in an upcoming auction. Anybody know what they might be? 'VAX model 83k03820102 cost $537,300', 'Digital Computer model 7FBMAXA cost $467,850', 'Digital Computer model 7FAMXA cost $433,750' Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 31 09:43:05 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 09:43:05 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <20050731023122.E0AE73BAD9@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050731094305.3d8701fa@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> You might want to add this picture from my website. It shows the tape and belt paths better than the one you have does. I think I got this from one of the HP Journals that had an article about the tape drive. I think it was probably the June 1976 one that announced the HP 9825 since it was the first released product to use that drive. Joe At 10:31 PM 7/30/05 -0400, you wrote: > >Here is some advice from the HP 9830 service manual. It contains >a diagram of the tape path inside the cartridge and gives instructions >on how to rethread a tape. > >http://www.series80.org/Articles/tape-considerations.html > >**vp > From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jul 31 10:44:41 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:44:41 -0400 Subject: Id this DEC? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050731095801.3d8fcb0a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050731095801.3d8fcb0a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42ECF1E9.nailVJ1HQQR1@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > 'VAX model 83k03820102 cost $537,300' I'm guessing some kind of VAX 8300 system. > 'Digital Computer model 7FBMAXA' > 'Digital Computer model 7FAMXA cost $433,750' Those are alphaserver 8400 systems. I believe those part number originally specified entire systems (CPU + peripherals + adapters + possibly cluster hardware) and I don't know what was attached to the CPU. Chances are they came from the factory configured with disks, tapes, ethernet, CI, etc. Maybe they've been expanded over the years, maybe the stuff outside the box isn't part of the auction, etc. Alphaserver 8400's were a pretty kick-ass system in the late 90's. Extreme multiprocessor and I/O busses (I think 12 CPU's in some configs, lotsa PCI backplanes, etc.) I'd hazard a guess that a system that originally cost a good chunk of a million dollars has multiple CPU's and a lot of peripherals. In today's world of 160 GByte drives costing $100 maybe others aren't so interested in big farms of SCSI disks anymore... Tim. From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jul 31 11:35:05 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:35:05 -0400 Subject: Serial Configurations (was Devilish Altair Serial Configuration Problem) In-Reply-To: <0IKH00BTH48FHU68@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <007401c595ed$ce872bc0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: The problems I'm having have to be related to status bits and device initialization. The board is an SSM 2p+2s which is based on the TMS6011 (which has lots of equivalent UARTs such as the COM2502, 2017, TR1402, AY3-1015). The SSM board is very flexible -- I can change status bit order and polarity to match almost any configuration need. Right now I have it strapped to match the Altair Revision 1 SIO board (ports 0/1, RxStat=bit0, TxStat=bit1, active high polarity). I've also tried TxStat at bit7. Does someone have sample working code for initialization, input and output? I have a few datasheets but none of them give sample code sequences. I'm missing something here and I'd appreciate a push. Thanks. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 11:56 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Devilish Altair Serial Configuration Problem > >Subject: Devilish Altair Serial Configuration Problem > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:40:19 -0400 > To: "'CCTalk'" > >All: > > This problem has been beating me up all day so I wanted to throw it >out to the group for ideas. > > In my 8800b, I have a Vector Graphics Bit Streamer serial board (8251 >chip) set for standard ports (0/1 parallel, 2 serial data, 3 serial >command/status). I modified the Turnkey Monitor to use the ports based >on the VG instruction manual. The manual outlines initialization and >moving characters in and out. Works perfectly. the base altair boards were com2502 based on the RXrdy and TXempty bits sis not corrospond with 8251. > Now, I want to get standard Microsoft BASIC paper tapes (8k or >Extended 4.0) working with this board. However, when I look at the >sense switch options, none fit using the Bit Streamer -- the parallel >ports are swapped with the serial ports in the order, and the data port >comes before the status port (all basically the opposite of what BASIC >expects). I also can't seem to find a toggle loader that works >properly. Will not work. The MITS loader was specific to the mits boards unless you modified them. However then the loaded image (BASIC) will still need the drivers patched. The expected boards were either MITS SIO or the 2SIO. > So, I decided to pull out a Solid State Music 2p/2s board and try to >configure it to work with BASIC. I spent the better part of a day >trying different options with no success. Based on some basic testing >of the board I believe it works. The board may be ok but it will not solve the basic problem of correct IO address and bits within BASIC. > Has anyone configured an SSM board to successfully work with Microsoft >Tape BASIC? What loader did you use? How about getting a standard VG >Bit Streamer working with standard MS Basic? Neither, never had them. Back when faced with the MITs IO and some of the problems of storage I took a different route until I got a disk. I used a MITS SIO-B for the console (address 0/1). The original load was done using a MITS ACR from audio tape for the 8K and the extended 12k. Then the system was stopped and a hand loaded program saved the image to a different tape system as a binary save. The goal being to get away from MITS ACR (unreliable on a good day) or PTape (SLOW!!!). The audio tape system was homebrew and ran NRZI at 4800 and later 9600 using a Redactron digital casette tape deck (saturation recording, not audio). The inital load file was straight binary with a loader that looked for a leader byte and then stuffed memory till byte count equaled zero. Later versions evloved to CPU control of the tape drive and blocked files. > As an aside, I'm using Procomm from DOS on an old PC. Can one use the >"ASCII Upload" option to move the tape image over the line or should I >do something from DOS like "copy 8kbas40.tap com1:"? Using todays tech (a PC) I'd render the BASIC to a binary image on the PC (using a sim if needed) and download it using straight binary transfer (8n1 terminal) to a simple binary loader. At 9600 baud it's plenty fast and low error. Also using a SIM you can get inside the BASIC and find all the IO instructions and change the relevent routines. I had to do that using the ALTAIR8800 front pannel. I stopped using all that when I started using NS* MDS with NS*dos and NS*BASIC back in late 1977. Allison From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jul 31 12:01:59 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:01:59 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <200507310522.j6V5MKEB085180@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507310522.j6V5MKEB085180@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200507311202.00197.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 31 July 2005 00:16, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Would love to hear from anyone who attended today -- how'd it go? Everyone I talked to seemed to think it went fantastically, especially for a first time event. We ended up with 12 exhibitors (including 1 that showed up at the event with no warning), and all 8 vendor and consignment tables will filled up. The estimated head count for the exhibits was about 70 (paid) people, which was a little less than expected, but still a pretty good turnout. I think we had a slightly smaller turnout (~50) for the speakers. >From what I've been told, it was a better turnout than either of the VCF/Easts. ;) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Jul 31 12:17:23 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:17:23 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <200507311202.00197.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Sunday 31 July 2005 00:16, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > > Would love to hear from anyone who attended today -- how'd it go? > > Everyone I talked to seemed to think it went fantastically, especially > for a first time event. We ended up with 12 exhibitors (including 1 > that showed up at the event with no warning), and all 8 vendor and > consignment tables will filled up. > > The estimated head count for the exhibits was about 70 (paid) people, > which was a little less than expected, but still a pretty good turnout. > I think we had a slightly smaller turnout (~50) for the speakers. Pictures, pictures please. From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 31 12:17:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need favor: Anyone near Windsor Ontario? Message-ID: Charles Fox posted a message a couple weeks back about a bunch of stuff he was getting rid of. There were a few stacks of magazines that nobody wanted but that I would really like to add to my archive. The problem is Charlie doesn't have the time to pack and ship them. Is there anyone near Windsor, Ontario, that could go meet Charlie and take the magazines away for shipping to me? I'll of course reimburse the kind volunteer for time and trouble. Please reply directly. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mamcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Jul 28 13:53:18 2005 From: mamcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike, A) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:53:18 -0500 Subject: Cleaning out storage room FREE ITEMS Message-ID: Actually I tried sending 31 VAX version 5.1 manuals via USPS and USPS said they must be hard bound, not loose leaf to use book rate. I had 4 boxes of manuals. Mike >Liam, > > Hint: Software and manuals can be shipped CHEAP using USPS bookrate. > > Joe From korpela at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 13:55:24 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:55:24 -0700 Subject: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: References: <1122388932.13599.31.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On 7/26/05, Tony Duell wrote: > Remember the interface is > bit serial, preesumably your memory is at least 8 bits wide, you may well > have to start writing in the middle of a memory word. Are you sure about that 50 MHz? I would have guessed 10 MHz would be fast enough. Um, wouldn't you use each bit in a word as a different head rather than than address bits withing a word? It's not like you can't perform an SRAM read+write cycle in 20 ns, although direct to [S]DRAM might be a bit more challenging. So in terms of 50 MHz sampling, you're talking 1 Mbit per head of fast memory for cylinder cache (you might as well choose a multiple of 8 heads), 1Mbit per head per cylinder of slow non-volatile memory for storage, and a PIC to transfer between the two (handle the "stepping") and a FPGA to hold the logic (a resettable 50 MHz, 20 bit counter tristated to the cache address bus and the read/write logic) So a 20 MB drive (8*640*17) is 1 MByte of fast memory, and 640 MB CF card. If 10 MHz is fast enough you can reduce those memory requirements by a factor of 5. > As I said, it's not that difficult, just a bit harder than you may have > first thoguth. Sounds like fun. :) Wish I had the time... Eric From carlos at jimulco.autonoma.edu.co Thu Jul 28 09:13:42 2005 From: carlos at jimulco.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:13:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A minor Adventure in Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > > James Rice wrote: > > > Foxboro is an old very large control and instrumentation company located > > > of all places, Foxboro, MA. > > Oh my; yes, why did my brain cells link Foxboro to the UK in my previous > > message? ... hmmm. > But in the very least, didn't Foxboro have an office in Foxboro, MA? Was > that just coincidence? My reference is some 5000 miles away right now (a book on the history of control theory). I was writing from memory... and somehow I "remembered" an UK connection for the Foxboro company; but I may be wrong. Perhaps it has been american all the time (I think they were bought out in the last decade or so...) carlos. From korpela at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 14:57:20 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:57:20 -0700 Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20050728021609.A758373029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <42E82941.4000705@compsys.to> <20050728021609.A758373029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: Googling on "arbitrary precision math" works pretty well for finding standard algorithms... > By the way, are there any standard algorithms for the > 4 basic operations (add, subtract, multiply and divide) > for 128 bit numbers which are composed of 8 * 16 bit > words? As per your suggestion, I would probably use: > CHARACTER * 16 ARRAY ( nnn ) From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Jul 28 15:17:38 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:17:38 -0400 Subject: DR DOS 5.0 In-Reply-To: <575131af05072812201a74a264@mail.gmail.com> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C369@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <6.2.5.1.2.20050727215929.033c18b0@boff-net.dhs.org> <575131af05072812201a74a264@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.1.2.20050728160823.033c06c8@boff-net.dhs.org> actually, my comments come from a number of forums on the matter and the fact that I had first hand interaction with the Novell/Caldera gang and DR DOS was available for web-based download up until some point in 2002/2003 from their site. Lineo might have purchased it before that, but as for where it was available, Caldera/Novell still had it at that point. I was simply mentioning major names (not intermediate) and DR DOS was freeware when it was still with Caldera/Novell. Lineo may have licensed it or made it shareware (much like its current holder, DeviceLogic.). Lineo's official releases were not public/free domain, thus, making my comments on .04 and .05 factual. please see: http://stud3.tuwien.ac.at/~e0225895/drdos/history.htm states as fact that it was only available for OEM purchase in packs of 50. during this time frame, it fails to state that Caldera/Novell still had the 7.03 available on their sites for download (part of the sales agreement to Lineo/SCO, etc). Research is a good thing... -John At 03:20 PM 7/28/2005, you wrote: >On 7/28/05, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > > Actually, it WAS called DR DOS as it used to be > > owned by Caldera until 2003 (which was at one > > time part of Novell). It is now owned by SCO > >While I don't disagree with your comments about SCO, you're off beam >on the history of DR-DOS. Lineo got it before 2000 -- it's not been >Caldera/SCO property for a *long* time and you've missed 2 >intermediate name changes. > > > There are > > "unofficial" releases of DR DOS 7.04 and 7.05. > > They are part of Partition Magic, Western > > Digital, Quantum/Maxtor and Seagate/OnTrack > > Diagnostics. > >True, but they were official, from Lineo. They don't run DOS apps >well, though -- it's been tried. > >-- >Liam Proven >Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com >AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/2005 From websupport at degnanco.com Thu Jul 28 17:51:07 2005 From: websupport at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:51:07 -0400 Subject: DR DOS 5.0 In-Reply-To: <200507281753.j6SHrAoW055556@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050728184908.038f88e8@mail.degnanco.net> >Subject: DR DOS 5.0 >Anybody knows something about its history ?? >I have installation disks with files dated 6/1990 and also a boot disk with some files dated in 2/1991, I know that several bug fixing versions exist, but Which is the last ?? >I remembered it when I was reading all that Windows Vista (LongHorn) stuff. Seems that M$ is using 'vaporware' again to distract attention from Intel Mac OS X much like >they did with MS-DOS 5.0 and DR DOS 5.0. I have a copy of version 6. It's on 1.2MB 5 1/4 disks. If you'd like an eval copy, let me know. Bill vintagecomputer.net From jdavis at soupwizard.com Thu Jul 28 20:14:27 2005 From: jdavis at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:14:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: QuantumLink In-Reply-To: <42E9761E.80203@jbrain.com> References: <50631.68.155.21.7.1122588678.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> <42E9761E.80203@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <50373.68.155.21.7.1122599667.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> On Thu, July 28, 2005 8:19 pm, Jim Brain said: > Can you describe the system to me? Did you issue the Q packets > yourself, or did you operate at a higher level? > > As for the Stratus emulator idea, I would be the last to discourage > someone to embark on this, but I'm mainly interested in bringing the > client back. Adding functionality via PL/1 is not my idea of a > challenge. More like misery.... Even assuming there was a working stratus emulator out there, the practical difficulties of first getting access to the server code (now owned by Time-Warner), and then figuring out how it all goes together - I'd say trying to get the authentic system up and running is a "tilting at windmills", unless aol wants to help to recreate corporate history. I'm not entirely sure the code I worked with was the same as the qlink code, or if qlink was a frozen system off on it's own machines using an earlier version of the system. I do remember that some of the other systems that were sunsetted at the same time (pc-link, and I think applelink) were in my source code with if-thens for client pecularities. >From my programmer's point of view, it was an event driven system - I called a library routine to register that my routine X handled a particular client token. When a user clicked a button on a form, it would send down a specific token and some data, which the front-end layers would decode, check it's token table to see who handled it, then call the handler and pass the data. The handler routine would do something, then send back to the client another token and data. There were a lot of system routines in between me and the client that would take care of formatting and sending the data to and from the client. Most valuable to you would be the list of tokens, their data, and what they were supposed to do. I really can't remember if qlink was very similar to the later pc-link, appplelink, and eventually aol clients. Aol's client had (and probably still has) it's own complicated form description language - it qlink spoke that, you won't get very far unless you can find a leaked manual on the web somewhere for the particular dialect it spoke. I do know there was a leaked or reverse engineered token list from when aol hacking was all the rage. I suspect that qlink used a subset of those, that each client added to what was already there, instead of completely reinventing it. Wow, I haven't thought about this stuff in years. Jeff From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Thu Jul 28 23:35:32 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:35:32 -0500 Subject: my speccy In-Reply-To: <1122316184.16616.6.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <200507290444.j6T4iVNg064337@keith.ezwind.net> This reminds me of a pet peeve of mine. Is it just me or does it really xxxx you off when somebody gives you a Tandy model 100 and then they say something like "I had a Cray-1 in the garage until last week but I took it to the junk dealer"? It seems to happen to me quite often. Maybe they feel so bad about parting with the little piece of junk that they hung on to the they need to say something to make them feel better? I am always tempted to say "Are you just trying to make me angry or what? Why would I want to know about the really valuable thing you didn't give me?" Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Wilkinson ... > Have fun with the Spectrum. You should be able to find some > fellow enthusiasts - a friend of mine had quite a collection > of Spectrum stuff until recently (microfloppies etc.) From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Fri Jul 29 00:05:28 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:05:28 -0500 Subject: Google & cctalk archives - was Re: ST-506 hard drive emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507290514.j6T5ETYh064523@keith.ezwind.net> I have noticed this and figured out the same solution, but how in the world does this happen? Do the pages get renumbered or something? Gil ... > Unfortunately, cctalk's archive is out of sync with what > Google thinks. Look for "disc simuatlors" as the topic, but look at the > cached copy of the page. ... From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Fri Jul 29 00:41:34 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:41:34 -0500 Subject: Disk pack cleaning - was RE: "New" RL02 on the way - how to power up? In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1DC4@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <200507290550.j6T5oWgS064856@keith.ezwind.net> > Cleaning becomes an issue when you have the drive :~) See > www.pdp-11.nl (peripheral -> disk -> RL01/RL02"). Speaking of cleaning, is anyone aware of any service facility that can clean a disk pack? I have a Four Phase System IV/90 that I will be firing up ADN and it uses a CDC 9762 drive. I would like to have the packs "cleaned" so that when I fire it up we don't crater the heads first thing. TIA, Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From trestivo at concentric.net Fri Jul 29 09:16:23 2005 From: trestivo at concentric.net (thom restivo) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:16:23 -0400 Subject: need to read 8" floppies on pdp8 Message-ID: <008101c59448$199c5880$6801a8c0@studio> I have a semi-urgent need to read some 8" floppies that I believe were created on a pdp8 system. Does anyone have the hardware available or know what I need to find to accomplish this task? How about the i/o card for the pdp8? I have access to an 8" floppy drive that was used on a pdp11 (rx01/rx02). Thanks, Thom Best Regards, Thom Restivo LEWIS AND CLARK 624 Fishtail Palm Blvd. Melbourne, FL 32901 Phone: (321) 537-2384 Fax: (321) 768-0006 Email: trestivo at lewis-clark.com Web: http://www.lewis-clark.com From jwest at dewey.classiccmp.org Fri Jul 29 11:26:38 2005 From: jwest at dewey.classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:26:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: jack rubin? Message-ID: <200507291626.j6TGQcmY068198@dewey.classiccmp.org> Sorry for posting to the list, don't have jacks email address from here.... Jack... sorry, I have no spares of the drives you mentioned :( Jay From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Fri Jul 29 16:04:17 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:04:17 -0500 Subject: Implementations of Unix on micros In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507292113.j6TLDGkh072916@keith.ezwind.net> One of the lines in this page says: Kildall balks at the IBM nondisclosure agreement? I have heard at least 3 different versions of this story, each proclaiming to be authentic. Does anybody on the list know the true story? Documentation? TIA, Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:02 AM > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: Implementations of Unix on micros > > > Not sure if this has been posted before, but still somewhat > useful as a research/curio record: > > http://www.robotwisdom.com/linux/nonnix.html > > -- > > Sellam Ismail From pete at bartusek.com Sat Jul 30 02:11:23 2005 From: pete at bartusek.com (Pete Bartusek) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 03:11:23 -0400 Subject: Analog modem emulator? Message-ID: <200507300708.j6U780d20481@pop-2.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Just curious...has there ever been a device available to anyone's knowledge that functions like an analog phone line and allows transmission via TCPIP? For example, taking an older BBS system that has 5 internal modems in it, and plugging the lines into this "mystery" device and then being able to telnet to different ports and it makes the connection to one of the ports? I've seen the UDS-10 device from Lantronix to emulate a serial modem, so essentially you can telnet to it from another PC and it fakes the computer into thinking someone's "ringing the phone, etc...but I want to take it one step back...leave the modems in place but emulate the phone lines. If it rings any bells, or if someone can think of a scenario this might be needed in, please drop me a note and maybe it'll help me track down something... Thanks! Pete From pete at bartusek.com Sat Jul 30 02:12:34 2005 From: pete at bartusek.com (Pete Bartusek) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 03:12:34 -0400 Subject: PET Cassette software Message-ID: <200507300712.j6U7CJD04665@pop-4.dnv.wideopenwest.com> I'm still keeping an eye out for Commodore Pet software on cassette...if you have anything, can you let me know? I'd really like to revive this machine! Thanks, Pete From dubmatrix at chello.nl Sat Jul 30 07:31:54 2005 From: dubmatrix at chello.nl (Romano & Carolien) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:31:54 +0200 Subject: Kodak Displaymaker "video graphics system" Message-ID: <000201c59502$b1401f90$5da98418@JAMAICA> Hello Pat, I was wondering if you had any luck yet in finding software for this system. I've bought this system without software today and I'm stuck with the same problem. GreetZzz Romano From BIDDR7 at aol.com Sat Jul 30 14:27:08 2005 From: BIDDR7 at aol.com (BIDDR7 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:27:08 EDT Subject: tektronix 4205 & 4207 Message-ID: <90.62bf91d6.301d2e8c@aol.com> HELLO MY NAME IS MJ AND WE CARRY ALOT OF TEK 4207 AND 4205 TERMINALS _WWW.COMPUTEREQUIPMENTWAREHOUSE.COM_ (http://www.COMPUTEREQUIPMENTWAREHOUSE.COM) 801-259-1195 DIRECT TO ME IN RESPONSE TO YOUR MESSAGE ON THE INTERNET Timothy Rutherford _teor at nmia.com _ (mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org?Subject=tektronix%204205%20&%204207&In-Reply-To=) Fri Mar 7 16:44:26 CST 2003 * Previous message: _Toshiba T3100, NEC MultiSpeed EL, Zenith Data Systems ZWL-184-97 _ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/018891.html) * Next message: _Premium SoftCard //e _ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/018893.html) * Messages sorted by: _[ date ]_ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/date.html#18892) _[ thread ]_ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/thread.html#18892) _[ subject ]_ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/subject.html#18892) _[ author ]_ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/author.html#18892) ____________________________________ hello i am looking for some tektronix 4205 and 4207 terminals. does anybody have some that they would like to sell? or could you point me in the right direction. tim rutherford _teor at nmia.com_ (http://dewey.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk) From BIDDR7 at aol.com Sat Jul 30 14:32:32 2005 From: BIDDR7 at aol.com (BIDDR7 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:32:32 EDT Subject: tektronix 4205 & 4207 Message-ID: <159.55fb51ff.301d2fd0@aol.com> HELLO MY NAME IS MJ AND WE CARRY ALOT OF TEK 4207 AND 4205 TERMINALS _WWW.COMPUTEREQUIPMENTWAREHOUSE.COM_ (http://www.computerequipmentwarehouse.com/) 801-259-1195 DIRECT TO ME IN RESPONSE TO YOUR MESSAGE ON THE INTERNET Timothy Rutherford _teor at nmia.com _ (mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org?Subject=tektronix%204205%20&%204207&In-Reply-To=) Fri Mar 7 16:44:26 CST 2003 * Previous message: _Toshiba T3100, NEC MultiSpeed EL, Zenith Data Systems ZWL-184-97 _ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipe rmail/cctalk/2003-March/018891.html) * Next message: _Premium SoftCard //e _ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/018893.html) * Messages sorted by: _[ date ]_ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/date.html#18892) _[ thread ]_ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/thread.html#18892) _[ subject ]_ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/subject.html#18892) _[ author ]_ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/author.html#18892) ____________________________________ hello i am looking for some tektronix 4205 and 4207 terminals. does anybody have some that they would like to sell? or could you point me in the right direction. tim rutherford _teor at nmia.com_ (http://dewey.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk) 505-550-5110 tim rutherford _teor at nmia.com_ (http://dewey.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk) From BIDDR7 at aol.com Sat Jul 30 14:48:31 2005 From: BIDDR7 at aol.com (BIDDR7 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:48:31 EDT Subject: tektronix 4205 & 4207--------TIM RUTHERFORD Message-ID: <1d4.40f946e7.301d338f@aol.com> In a message dated 7/30/2005 1:32:32 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, BIDDR7 writes: HELLO MY NAME IS MJ AND WE CARRY ALOT OF TEK 4207 AND 4205 TERMINALS _WWW.COMPUTEREQUIPMENTWAREHOUSE.COM_ (http://www.computerequipmentwarehouse.com/) 801-259-1195 DIRECT TO ME IN RESPONSE TO YOUR MESSAGE ON THE INTERNET Timothy Rutherford _teor at nmia.com _ (mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org?Subject=tektronix%204205%20&%204207&In-Reply-To=) Fri Mar 7 16:44:26 CST 2003 * Previous message: _Toshiba T3100, NEC MultiSpeed EL, Zenith Data Systems ZWL-184-97 _ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/018891.html) * Next message: _Premium SoftCard //e _ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/018893.html) * Messages sorted by: _[ date ]_ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/date.html#18892) _[ thread ]_ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/thread.html#18892) _[ subject ]_ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/subject.html#18892) _[ author ]_ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/author.html#18892) ____________________________________ hello i am looking for some tektronix 4205 and 4207 terminals. does anybody have some that they would like to sell? or could you point me in the right direction. tim rutherford _teor at nmia.com_ (http://dewey.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk) 505-550-5110 tim rutherford _teor at nmia.com_ (http://dewey.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk) From vrs at email.msn.com Sat Jul 30 23:19:48 2005 From: vrs at email.msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:19:48 -0700 Subject: Devilish Altair Serial Configuration Problem References: <005c01c59579$30f6f6c0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: From: "Richard A. Cini" > As an aside, I'm using Procomm from DOS on an old PC. Can one > use the "ASCII Upload" option to move the tape image over the line or > should I do something from DOS like "copy 8kbas40.tap com1:"? I use Procomm's raw ASCII upload to send binary tapes to my PDP-8 without any problems. Vince From h.otten at chello.nl Sun Jul 31 12:13:36 2005 From: h.otten at chello.nl (Hans Otten) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:13:36 +0200 Subject: CF & IDE adapter card for Apple IIs Message-ID: <005701c595f3$305add60$0b01a8c0@aldipress.nl> >From: "Zane H. Healy" >>Hi, >> >>Check this out: >> >>http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/mai >>n.php >> >>Great way to do instead of relying on aging floppies. >> >>Cheers, Wizard >Interesting, anyone have any experience with this? Zane Works fine in Apple II, II+, 2e, IIGS under PRODOS and GS/OS Good quality product. Hans From fernande at internet1.net Sun Jul 31 12:50:56 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:50:56 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <200507310522.j6V5MKEB085180@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507310522.j6V5MKEB085180@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42ED0F80.2060404@internet1.net> I arrived quite late, as it was a last minute trip for me that I didn't really have the time to plan for. I brought stuff for the consignment area. I missed the feeding frenzy, so I only sold 2 items, but did give some stuff away. Pat was kind enough not to charge me the consignment fee..... Thanks Pat! I met Hans..... that was a treat. I mentioned the burgers and from his reaction, I don't think I was the first :-) Someones wife helped me get all of my stuff up to the 3rd floor, carrying a box, and holding doors. I don't think I properly thanked her. If that sounds like your wife, please tell her thank you for me! I think her husband was a vendor, since she mentioned doing the same thing earlier in the day with him..... I just don't know names! Getting to Purdue from Michigan and getting back home seemed to take forever! Instead of following Mapquests route, which looked to be out of the way, I made my own way. That was a mistake! After telling people the Mapquest route was 150 miles longer, I realized I had made a mistake! The Mapquest route was only about 20 miles longer, but probably much quicker. It was nice meeting you all..... everyone was quite friendly. Mike it was nice talking DEC stuff with you..... Maybe I'll try and get my 11/73 up and running now that I have more space in my computer room! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Would love to hear from anyone who attended today -- how'd it go? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jul 31 12:50:18 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:50:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <200507300708.j6U780d20481@pop-2.dnv.wideopenwest.com> References: <200507300708.j6U780d20481@pop-2.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: <200507311754.NAA11275@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Just curious...has there ever been a device available to anyone's > knowledge that functions like an analog phone line and allows > transmission via TCPIP? Yes and no. I've seen such devices in the form of cards that plug into computers; with a little software, this adds up to what you describe. They tend to have a fairly small market - generally people working on telephony development of one sort or another - but they do exist. (They tend to be somewhat expensive, in part because they're complicated and in part because they're a low-volume item.) You might also look at PBX systems; it may be easier to "forge" a T1 or whatever into a PBX than individual POTS lines. (That is, I'm suggesting a small PBX and a computer, with a (vary short) link between them, so the PBX thinks the computer is its upstream CO.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Jul 31 13:48:22 2005 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:48:22 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest - off to a great start Message-ID: <000001c59600$6dd1ce80$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> My wife and I just got back from beautiful West Lafayette, IN, home of the (first annual) Vintage Computer Festival Midwest. I'm sure Pat will provide all the details relating to attendance numbers, etc. but from at least one participant's point of view, it was a great event. Ethan Dicks and Ray Borrill were the scheduled speakers; Hans Franke also gave a (relatively) impromptu presentation on photographing vintage computers. All the presentations were great though the audio quality in the room left a bit to be desired, especially for the more vintage among us who might be a bit lacking in audio input capabilities. The exhibit/swap section was small but a decent crowd showed up to view and buy/swap. My goal as a vendor was to return home with an empty car and I came close to achieving it, not counting the "new" treasures I picked up in exchange. Participants in the now traditional post-fest dinner included Pat Finnegan and crew, Tom Uban, Jay West, Dan and Karen Cohoe, and of course, Hans who, contrary to expectations generated by a well-known vintage computer journalist, had only one entr?e. Thanks again to Pat for putting this all together and giving those of us in the Heartland an opportunity to share our passion/affliction closer to home. Looking forward to next year ... Jack From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jul 31 12:48:00 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: 31 Jul 2005 13:48:00 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? Message-ID: <3205662500.817400@www.chatteremail.com> To be clear, Hans and a few others said that of the event, and I was just trying to point out how successful it was for a first time event. Despite the 'small' number of exhibitors, we did fill up 21 tables and could have expanded that by at least another 4-5. Also, since we collected donations instead of charging admission, there were probably a dozen or two people beyond that 70. :) Pat Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing - http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge - http://www.computer-refuge.org -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Finnegan Date: Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 1:04 pm Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update? On Sunday 31 July 2005 00:16, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: Would love to hear from anyone who attended today -- how'd it go? Everyone I talked to seemed to think it went fantastically, especially for a first time event. We ended up with 12 exhibitors (including 1 that showed up at the event with no warning), and all 8 vendor and consignment tables will filled up. The estimated head count for the exhibits was about 70 (paid) people, which was a little less than expected, but still a pretty good turnout. I think we had a slightly smaller turnout (~50) for the speakers. >From what I've been told, it was a better turnout than either of the VCF/Easts. ;) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bqt at Update.UU.SE Sun Jul 31 14:05:42 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:05:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200507311631.j6VGVcnw089207@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507311631.j6VGVcnw089207@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I'm replying to several postings at once here, since I'm in digest mode anyway... We all know the subject by now, doing bignum arithmetic in F77 on a PDP-11, and all the side topics this have generated... > From: "Jerome H. Fine" > > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > >>Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > > > > >>As for endian issues, I can define the most significant word to be > >>at either end, but I tend to think that I will place the most significant > >>at the high end of the word since this allows FORTRAN 77 to use > >>octal to output the value correctly with 64 bit floating point values. > >> > >??? Not sure what you actually say here. Floating point values hardly have > >anything to do with this. Pick whatever byte order you want, and stick > >with it. Output is something you'll have to figure out anyway, and you > >deal with any byte order you decided on then. Either way is not that > >difficult. However, I'd recommend using little-endian, since that is the > >"natural" order of the PDP-11, and F77 on the machine. That means you can > >let it deal with 16-bit quantities natively without having to to byte > >swapping. > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Please define little-endian and big endian. This have now been covered, so I think I can safely skip this. If you really need some help in figuring out what little and bigendian is, then say so, and we'll take a crash course. > Also, I should have explained what I meant! Specifically, > it should be possible to use floating point variables > as arguments to subroutines and let FORTRAN 77 take > care of allocating the actual storage by doing so: And I don't see the need. When you pass arrays as arguments in FORTRAN, you only pass pointers, and actually access the parameters in the callers address space. So no allocation is done, nor need to be done. Using REAL*8 as a return value from the function is actually what you are most interested in anyway when you go down this lane, since it's the result you might want to allocate space for automatically. However, it will not help you beond 64 bits anyway, so it's a dead end. Bite the bullet and do it in a way that will deal with arbitrary large values, if that's what you want. > 1000 FORMAT ( O25, O25 ) > REAL * 8 Value1, Value2 > CALL I64ADD ( Value1, Value2 ) > TYPE 1000, Value1, Value2 > > I64ADD:: > Mov R0,-(SP) > Mov R1,-(SP) > Mov 2(R5),R0 > Mov 4(R5),R1 > Add (R0)+,(R1)+ > Adc (R1) > Add (R0)+,(R1)+ > Adc (R1)+ > Add (R0)+,(R1)+ > Adc (R1)+ > Add (R0)+,(R1)+ > Mov (SP)+,R1 > Mov (SP)+,R0 > Return > .End This code has a bug in it, as has been pointed out. You actually needs to do the ADC for all subsequent words after each add step, since every ADC in turn also can generate a carry. > If I am correct, the above code assumes that the low order > words/bytes are the least significant and the high order > words/bytes are the most significant. Is this little-endian > or big-endian? Yes, and that is little-endian. Well, actually, your code only assumes that the *words* are little endian. You don't look at individual bytes, and thus the CPU can have them either little or bigendian without you knowing. > NOTE that if the most significant bit is in the most > significant word and byte (as per the above MACRO-11 > subroutine), then the most significant of everything > is in the highest address of everything. HOWEVER, from > looking at the order of bytes, words and bits in the > PDP-11 manual (Chapter 10 of Microcomputer Processor > Handbook), when the most significant bit is in the > word with the lowest address, the most significant > bit (actually the sign bit and the exponent of real > floating point numbers) is in byte 1 rather than byte 0. Please stop looking at floating point data, since it's a whole other game. I'll even repeat this: DON'T TRY TO USE FP, IT'S A WHOLE OTHER ISSUE IN ALL ASPECTS! Even endianess don't actually apply to fp. If you look at how 16-bit integers are stored in memory, you'll see that the most significant bit of the 16 is stored in bit 7 of byte 1. And thus, the least significan bit is stored in bit 0 of byte 0, which is a small-endian machine. [...] > Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 21:54:05 -0400 > From: "Jerome H. Fine" > Subject: Re: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <42EC2F3D.1080901 at compsys.to> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > > >>Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > > > > >>More seriously, if I am using all 16 bits as unsigned integers, then > >>the high order bit can't be easily eliminated. > >> > >True. And if you don't use all 16 bits, then the MUL instruction deals > >with the sign itself anyway, so there is no need to take absolute values > >and so on either... In short, a good suggestion in theory, but one that > >don't work in real life. > > > >But of course you still haven't reflected on the fact that in FORTRAN-77 > >you can do 32-bit integer multiplication already... > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > OK. I just checked how FORTRAN 77 internally handles: > INTEGER * 4 ITest1, ITest2, ITest3 > REAL * 8 RTest1, RTest2, RTest3 > ITest1 = 65536 > ITest2 = 10 > ITest1 = ITest1 * ITest2 > The integer instruction Mul allows only 2 signed 16 bit numbers > that then produce a 32 bit number. When 2 signed 32 bit numbers > are multiplied, FORTRAN 77 first converts them to floating point > numbers, multiplies them as 2 real 64 bit numbers and converts the > result back to an integer. What FORTRAN 77 are you using??? You gotta be kidding. Here is my small example code: ----------- PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 V5.4-26 20:35:33 31-JUL-05 Page 1 TMUL.FTN;1 0001 PROGRAM TEST 0002 INTEGER*4 X,Y,Z 0003 X = 42 0004 Y = 4711 0005 Z = X*Y 0006 END PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 V5.4-26 20:35:33 31-JUL-05 Page 2 TMUL.FTN;1 .TITLE TEST .IDENT 31JUL 000000 .PSECT $CODE1 000000 JSR PC,OTI$ 000004 MOV #76400,-(SP) 000010 MOV #76733,R4 000014 JSR R4,@$NAM$ ; 0003 000020 MOV #-3,$SEQC 000026 MOV #52,X 000034 CLR X+2 ; 0004 000040 MOV #11147,Y 000046 CLR Y+2 ; 0005 000052 MOV X+2,-(SP) 000056 MOV X,-(SP) 000062 MOV Y+2,-(SP) 000066 MOV Y,-(SP) 000072 JSR R4,MLJS$ 000076 MOV (SP)+,Z 000102 MOV (SP)+,Z+2 ; 0006 000106 JSR PC,EXIT$ ------------ Notice how the compiler pushes two 32-bit integers on the stack and calls MLJS$ Where did you find any FP stuff??? The rest of your questions about F77 are irrelevant, since you are asking things on the compiler, but the compiler clearly don't do what you say. > Johnny (or anyone else), can you please comment on if it is > necessary for FORTRAN 77 to use the stack? If it is not > needed, why does FORTRAN 77 use this approach? The reason for using the stack is that FORTAN-77 have a calling convention using R4 as the argument pointer. And since the function for doing 32-bit multiplications is just a function, the parameters needs to be passed somehow, and the stack is a very good choise. As for the algoritm for the sieve, I'll skip that part, since I haven't given it enough thought to see if what you say make sense or not. And I'm not overly interested in primes, so please don't ask me. I remember from my math classes that a sieve is both memory inefficient and slow. Doing factorization is rather fast in comparision, so unless you want to print all primes you can think of, it would be faster. Doing them all will be slower, but will use a fixed, very small amount of memory anyhow. [---] > Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:28:28 -0400 (EDT) > From: der Mouse > Subject: Re: FORTRAN 77 on PDP-11 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <200507310254.WAA18849 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Please define little-endian and big endian. > > Little-endian and big-endian apply whenever you have a multi-digit > value broken up into smaller ordered multi-digit units. (Usually this > is for base-2 digits, but it doesn't have to be.) Most often, the > smaller units are 8-bit bytes, with the order being memory addressing, > but this doesn't have to be so. (An example that violates all of those > assumptions is sending multi-bit bytes over a bit-serial line, where > the "smaller..units" are individual bits, ordered by chronology on the > wire.) [...] Good enough that we hopefully can terminate that question? > The PDP-11 is an odd case. The hardware is little-endian, but the > hardware is 16-bit. Some languages store 32-bit integers in what we > might call "schizophrenic endian": that 12345678 value is stored in > four consecutive bytes as 34 12 78 56: it is broken into two 16-bit > words with the more-significant one stored first, but those 16-bit > words are then stored little-endian in the bytes making them up. The (I believe) official term is "middle-endian". :-) And like I believe I said before, FORTRAN-77 on the PDP-11 is pure little-endian. FORTRAN IV however, is middle-endian. I think I've written a small test program in most languages that have 32-bits integers on the PDP-11, which shows what byte order they use, if someone is interested. [...] > > I64ADD:: > > Mov R0,-(SP) > > Mov R1,-(SP) > > Mov 2(R5),R0 > > Mov 4(R5),R1 > > Add (R0)+,(R1)+ > > Adc (R1) > > Add (R0)+,(R1)+ > > Adc (R1)+ > > Add (R0)+,(R1)+ > > Adc (R1)+ > > Add (R0)+,(R1)+ > > Mov (SP)+,R1 > > Mov (SP)+,R0 > > Return > > I see two problems here. First, you have to eliminate the > postincrement on the second and third ADC instructions. Yup. > Second, this > loses carries resulting from the ADCs. Yup. > (Also, > the return instruction is normally spelled "ret", not "return".) Nope. The PDP-11 don't have a RET instruction. RETURN is actually a macro, and is the usual name used for this. If you want the actuall assembler mnemonic, it's "RTS PC" :-) CALL is the same deal... Don't exist either, and is instead a macro, so "CALL nnn" gets translated to "JSR PC,nnn" Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jul 31 14:09:05 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:09:05 -0400 Subject: Serial Configurations (was Devilish Altair Serial ConfigurationProblem) Message-ID: <0IKI0001BAIEXSQ0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Serial Configurations (was Devilish Altair Serial ConfigurationProblem) > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:35:05 -0400 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >All: > > The problems I'm having have to be related to status bits and >device initialization. The board is an SSM 2p+2s which is based on the >TMS6011 (which has lots of equivalent UARTs such as the COM2502, 2017, >TR1402, AY3-1015). The SSM board is very flexible -- I can change status >bit order and polarity to match almost any configuration need. Right now >I have it strapped to match the Altair Revision 1 SIO board (ports 0/1, >RxStat=bit0, TxStat=bit1, active high polarity). I've also tried TxStat >at bit7. That should work. > > Does someone have sample working code for initialization, input >and output? I have a few datasheets but none of them give sample code >sequences. I'm missing something here and I'd appreciate a push. OH, one more detail.. Most of the MITS software when loaded inits based on the front pannel sense switches (IN FFh). The configuration sets the board in use and bits. T he setting are in the MITS software manuals. Allison From news at computercollector.com Sun Jul 31 14:13:14 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:13:14 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest - off to a great start In-Reply-To: <000001c59600$6dd1ce80$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <200507311919.j6VJJknE091180@keith.ezwind.net> >> contrary to expectations generated by a well-known vintage computer journalist, had only one entr?e. Muckrake? Who, me? :) Today's headline: Only three months and one week until VCF 8! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jack Rubin Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:48 PM To: Classic Computer List Subject: VCF Midwest - off to a great start My wife and I just got back from beautiful West Lafayette, IN, home of the (first annual) Vintage Computer Festival Midwest. I'm sure Pat will provide all the details relating to attendance numbers, etc. but from at least one participant's point of view, it was a great event. Ethan Dicks and Ray Borrill were the scheduled speakers; Hans Franke also gave a (relatively) impromptu presentation on photographing vintage computers. All the presentations were great though the audio quality in the room left a bit to be desired, especially for the more vintage among us who might be a bit lacking in audio input capabilities. The exhibit/swap section was small but a decent crowd showed up to view and buy/swap. My goal as a vendor was to return home with an empty car and I came close to achieving it, not counting the "new" treasures I picked up in exchange. Participants in the now traditional post-fest dinner included Pat Finnegan and crew, Tom Uban, Jay West, Dan and Karen Cohoe, and of course, Hans who, contrary to expectations generated by a well-known vintage computer journalist, had only one entr?e. Thanks again to Pat for putting this all together and giving those of us in the Heartland an opportunity to share our passion/affliction closer to home. Looking forward to next year ... Jack From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jul 31 14:14:16 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:14:16 -0500 Subject: classiccmp knowledgebase In-Reply-To: <003e01c546da$bf35b4f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <003e01c546da$bf35b4f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050731140839.05195e88@mail> At 08:29 PM 4/21/2005, Jay West wrote: >Just wanted to say thanks for the people who have contributed knowledgebase articles to the classiccmp knowledgebase (www.classiccmp.org/kb) I have a suggested topic... "How to bootstrap files to a DOS machine." It was almost covered in January on the thread "Importing binary files without removable storage nor non-bundledsoftware". Someone asked me for this today and I didn't have it at my fingertips. They had a cast-off laptop whose floppy didn't work, so they wanted to bootstrap more files to it over the serial port. I recommended ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/commprog/msk-rcv.bas Although these days, you need to teach the twenty-sometimes what Kermit is. Sigh. - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 31 13:46:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:46:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <20050731023122.E0AE73BAD9@queen.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Jul 30, 5 10:31:22 pm Message-ID: > > > Here is some advice from the HP 9830 service manual. It contains Can't be! The 9830 tape drive and cassette are very different to those used in the 9825. The 9825, as we all know by now, uses a tape driven by an endless belt in the cartridge. The 9830 uses tapes with the same form factor as audio compact cassettes. The 9830 tape drive has 2 motors which drive the 2 spools, with a pair of solenoids to engage the drive. There is no capstan or pinch roller. -tony From uban at ubanproductions.com Sun Jul 31 15:02:21 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:02:21 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <200507311202.00197.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200507310522.j6V5MKEB085180@keith.ezwind.net> <200507310522.j6V5MKEB085180@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050731150022.02396e38@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 12:01 PM 7/31/2005 -0500, you wrote: >On Sunday 31 July 2005 00:16, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > > Would love to hear from anyone who attended today -- how'd it go? > >Everyone I talked to seemed to think it went fantastically, especially >for a first time event. We ended up with 12 exhibitors (including 1 >that showed up at the event with no warning), and all 8 vendor and >consignment tables will filled up. > >The estimated head count for the exhibits was about 70 (paid) people, >which was a little less than expected, but still a pretty good turnout. >I think we had a slightly smaller turnout (~50) for the speakers. Yes, many thanks to Pat for organizing the event as well as the others who helped to managed the various workings of the day. We all had a great time and it was good to put some faces to a number of the classiccmp people... --tom From willisjo at zianet.com Sun Jul 31 15:33:33 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:33:33 -0600 Subject: classiccmp knowledgebase References: <003e01c546da$bf35b4f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.2.1.2.2.20050731140839.05195e88@mail> Message-ID: <001601c5960f$1f620300$0a00000a@music> Only most twenty-somethings ;) I first used Kermit on a VM/ESA mainframe when I was about twelve. 24 now. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 1:14 PM Subject: Re: classiccmp knowledgebase (trim) > Although these days, you need to teach the twenty-sometimes > what Kermit is. Sigh. > > - John > > From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jul 31 15:42:09 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:42:09 -0500 Subject: classiccmp knowledgebase In-Reply-To: <001601c5960f$1f620300$0a00000a@music> References: <003e01c546da$bf35b4f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.2.1.2.2.20050731140839.05195e88@mail> <001601c5960f$1f620300$0a00000a@music> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050731153935.0517a5a8@mail> At 03:33 PM 7/31/2005, you wrote: >Only most twenty-somethings ;) I first used Kermit on a VM/ESA mainframe when >I was about twelve. 24 now. I found an interesting variation at http://chrio.org/serial/ , this fellow uses the stripping and insertion of CTRL/Z to his advantage! He split his binary into sections deliniated by any CTRL/Zs in the file, then sent those other pieces across (checking file sizes by hand and retrying if they didn't match), then using COPYto rejoin the pieces in a way to re-insert the CTRL/Z. As always, there's more than one way to skin the cat. - John From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Jul 31 15:54:10 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:54:10 +0100 Subject: classiccmp knowledgebase In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050731140839.05195e88@mail> References: <003e01c546da$bf35b4f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.2.1.2.2.20050731140839.05195e88@mail> Message-ID: <26c11a64050731135456ca1c61@mail.gmail.com> > Although these days, you need to teach the twenty-sometimes > what Kermit is. Sigh. > > - John > > I still qualify (just) for twenty-something. That's a bit ageist. I would say though that most of the people on this group who use or have used Kermit wouldn't be the ones trying to boot a dos laptop. So it's a moot point. Dan From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Jul 31 16:34:53 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:34:53 -0400 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 30 Jul 2005 03:11:23 EDT." <200507300708.j6U780d20481@pop-2.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: <200507312134.j6VLYrXH026357@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Pete Bartusek" wrote: >Just curious...has there ever been a device available to anyone's knowledge >that functions like an analog phone line and allows transmission via TCPIP? >For example, taking an older BBS system that has 5 internal modems in it, >and plugging the lines into this "mystery" device and then being able to >telnet to different ports and it makes the connection to one of the ports? Heh. I worked one on once, but it had 2000 modems :-) it was used by large ISP to field dial-in calls but it could do dial-out also. You might want a line emulator, which is sort of a "ring down line in a box". It has 2 rj-11's and when one side goes off hook it can generate ring voltage on the other side. Those boxes are not very expensive. -brad From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 31 17:03:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <200507311202.00197.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Jul 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > From what I've been told, it was a better turnout than either of the > VCF/Easts. ;) The first VCF had 90+ attendees and the second even more but I never did a proper count. I'm not sure if a two day event would've increased the attendance or resulted in the same count. But for one day that is a great success. Congrats, Pat! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 31 17:08:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Implementations of Unix on micros In-Reply-To: <200507292113.j6TLDGkh072916@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jul 2005, Director wrote: > One of the lines in this page says: > > Kildall balks at the IBM nondisclosure agreement? > > I have heard at least 3 different versions of this story, each proclaiming > to be authentic. Does anybody on the list know the true story? > Documentation? Hey Gil. I can't remember off-hand which book has the most accurate account but it is out there. Perhaps the second edition of _Fire in the Valley_? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 31 17:11:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <200507300708.j6U780d20481@pop-2.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jul 2005, Pete Bartusek wrote: > Just curious...has there ever been a device available to anyone's knowledge > that functions like an analog phone line and allows transmission via TCPIP? > For example, taking an older BBS system that has 5 internal modems in it, > and plugging the lines into this "mystery" device and then being able to > telnet to different ports and it makes the connection to one of the ports? > > I've seen the UDS-10 device from Lantronix to emulate a serial modem, so > essentially you can telnet to it from another PC and it fakes the computer > into thinking someone's "ringing the phone, etc...but I want to take it one > step back...leave the modems in place but emulate the phone lines. If I understand what you're asking for, you would need something that generates a ring signal, then converts TCP/IP packets to a modem carrier and vice versa. Pretty funky. Hmm, check out Cisco's offerings. > If it rings any bells So to speak. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Sun Jul 31 18:08:13 2005 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 00:08:13 +0100 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <200507300708.j6U780d20481@pop-2.dnv.wideopenwest.com> References: <200507300708.j6U780d20481@pop-2.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050731235631.0332c298@pop.freeserve.net> At 08:11 30/07/2005, Pete Bartusek wrote: >Just curious...has there ever been a device available to anyone's knowledge >that functions like an analog phone line and allows transmission via TCPIP? >For example, taking an older BBS system that has 5 internal modems in it, >and plugging the lines into this "mystery" device and then being able to >telnet to different ports and it makes the connection to one of the ports? > It might be you just need a terminal server with dial-out capability and modems, or one with built in modems. Then to link it to your BBS, you need a line emulator.. I've had success with just hooking modems back to back, at times, sometimes with a 9V battery to assist with line current detection (there are circuits about to show how to wire this properly!) but if your answering modems are picky on the ring signal (and can't detect e.g. a pulse-dial as a ring) then you need something a bit more clever to make the ring signal. It's often easier, and I've done this when testing things in the past, to pick up an old, small, PABX second hand dirt cheap, which you can use stand-alone, dialing extension->extension. Rob From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jul 31 18:21:49 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:21:49 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507311821.49520.pat@computer-refuge.org> Bill Sudbrink declared on Sunday 31 July 2005 12:17 pm: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Sunday 31 July 2005 00:16, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > > > Would love to hear from anyone who attended today -- how'd it go? > > > > Everyone I talked to seemed to think it went fantastically, > > especially for a first time event. We ended up with 12 exhibitors > > (including 1 that showed up at the event with no warning), and all 8 > > vendor and consignment tables will filled up. > > > > The estimated head count for the exhibits was about 70 (paid) > > people, which was a little less than expected, but still a pretty > > good turnout. I think we had a slightly smaller turnout (~50) for > > the speakers. > > Pictures, pictures please. Ok, my roommate has just posted the pictures he took. They don't yet have descriptions, but that's something I can work on over the next couple days... The first pic its what I brought for the consignment sale myself. Pics 4141-4149 are of Ethan's talk; "4147" has me on the left, and Ethan Dicks on the right. Pics 4150-4152 are of Hans's talk, 4153-4160 are of Ray's talk, 4161 is me messing with the a/v recording stuff, 4162 is of the cameraman (Alan Braunsdorf), and the rest are of exhibits. I'll try to get proper labels and digitized video of the speakers made available. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bdwheele at indiana.edu Sun Jul 31 18:55:46 2005 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (brian wheeler) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:55:46 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <3205662500.817400@www.chatteremail.com> References: <3205662500.817400@www.chatteremail.com> Message-ID: <1122854146.30140.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Kudos to you, Pat! It was a cool event. I wish I could have stayed longer, but the kiddo was dying to play in the fountains around the campus! Brian On Sun, 2005-07-31 at 13:48 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > To be clear, Hans and a few others said that of the event, and I was just trying to point out how successful it was for a first time event. Despite the 'small' number of exhibitors, we did fill up 21 tables and could have expanded that by at least another 4-5. Also, since we collected donations instead of charging admission, there were probably a dozen or two people beyond that 70. :) > > Pat > Pat > -- Purdue University Research Computing - http://www.rcac.purdue.edu > The Computer Refuge - http://www.computer-refuge.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Patrick Finnegan > Date: Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 1:04 pm > Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update? > > On Sunday 31 July 2005 00:16, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Would love to hear from anyone who attended today -- how'd it go? > > Everyone I talked to seemed to think it went fantastically, especially for a first time event. We ended up with 12 exhibitors (including 1 that showed up at the event with no warning), and all 8 vendor and consignment tables will filled up. > > The estimated head count for the exhibits was about 70 (paid) people, which was a little less than expected, but still a pretty good turnout. I think we had a slightly smaller turnout (~50) for the speakers. > > >From what I've been told, it was a better turnout than either of the VCF/Easts. ;) > > Pat > -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > > > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Jul 31 19:50:24 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:50:24 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <200507311821.49520.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Bill Sudbrink declared on Sunday 31 July 2005 12:17 pm: > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > On Sunday 31 July 2005 00:16, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > > > > Would love to hear from anyone who attended today -- how'd it go? > > > > > > Everyone I talked to seemed to think it went fantastically, > > > especially for a first time event. We ended up with 12 exhibitors > > > (including 1 that showed up at the event with no warning), and all 8 > > > vendor and consignment tables will filled up. > > > > > > The estimated head count for the exhibits was about 70 (paid) > > > people, which was a little less than expected, but still a pretty > > > good turnout. I think we had a slightly smaller turnout (~50) for > > > the speakers. > > > > Pictures, pictures please. > > Ok, my roommate has just posted the pictures he took. Uh, I don't seem to see them on your site... URL? From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jul 31 21:06:51 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 22:06:51 -0400 Subject: Serial Configurations (was Devilish Altair Serial ConfigurationProblem) In-Reply-To: <0IKI0001BAIEXSQ0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <007c01c5963d$ae974d90$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Allison: No success so far. I'm going to write a small test program tomorrow to accept a character from the SSM and echo it back. I have the two ports configured two different ways -- the first equivalent to a Revision 1 SIO (active low) and the second equivalent to an 8251. It's still a remote possibility that the board is bad, so I hope this will flush it out. I'm still hopeful that someone on the list has a working SSM 2p-2s that they could report on how it's configured and how the cable is wired. This has bothered me all day, which usually means it's a hardware problem. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 3:09 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Serial Configurations (was Devilish Altair Serial ConfigurationProblem) > >Subject: Serial Configurations (was Devilish Altair Serial ConfigurationProblem) > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:35:05 -0400 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >All: > > The problems I'm having have to be related to status bits and device >initialization. The board is an SSM 2p+2s which is based on the TMS6011 >(which has lots of equivalent UARTs such as the COM2502, 2017, TR1402, >AY3-1015). The SSM board is very flexible -- I can change status bit >order and polarity to match almost any configuration need. Right now I >have it strapped to match the Altair Revision 1 SIO board (ports 0/1, >RxStat=bit0, TxStat=bit1, active high polarity). I've also tried TxStat >at bit7. That should work. > > Does someone have sample working code for initialization, input and >output? I have a few datasheets but none of them give sample code >sequences. I'm missing something here and I'd appreciate a push. OH, one more detail.. Most of the MITS software when loaded inits based on the front pannel sense switches (IN FFh). The configuration sets the board in use and bits. T he setting are in the MITS software manuals. Allison From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 31 21:13:13 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:13:13 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? References: <200507310522.j6V5MKEB085180@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <00de01c5963e$92869740$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Pat wrote.... > Would love to hear from anyone who attended today -- how'd it go? Well, I just got back late afternoon today. As usual, it was a great time. I was extremely impressed because of the turnout. To be honest, I wasn't expecting much because it was the first time - and when I last checked the exhibitor list was pretty small (all to be expected for a first midwest event). I was very pleasantly suprised. There was quite a few vendors and I found the speakers interesting. There seemed to be a pretty good amount of hardware movement from the sale tables I saw too :> I think Pat deserves a huge thank you for pulling it all together so well! Kudo's Pat! While the show itself was a resounding success, my favorite part was just hanging out and BS'ing with all the folks from the list. Immensely fun. Jay West PS - No Trailer Incident this year :> From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 31 21:15:46 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:15:46 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? References: Message-ID: <00fd01c5963e$ef0729d0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bill wrote... > Pictures, pictures please. All pictures were destroyed to protect the gui...er... innocent ;) J From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 31 21:17:19 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:17:19 -0500 Subject: Disk pack cleaning - was RE: "New" RL02 on the way - how to powerup? References: <200507290550.j6T5oWgS064856@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <011001c5963f$24f3ca30$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Gil wrote.... >> Cleaning becomes an issue when you have the drive :~) See >> www.pdp-11.nl (peripheral -> disk -> RL01/RL02"). > > Speaking of cleaning, is anyone aware of any service facility that can > clean > a disk pack? I have a Four Phase System IV/90 that I will be firing up ADN > and it uses a CDC 9762 drive. I would like to have the packs "cleaned" so > that when I fire it up we don't crater the heads first thing. Guess no one saw the disk pack cleaning device on ebay? It was there just a few days ago, may still be. I think it was "Texwipe" or something like that. In any case, it had an arm to clean multiplatter cartridges and such. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 31 21:22:32 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:22:32 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest - off to a great start References: <000001c59600$6dd1ce80$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <012c01c5963f$e2c7ad10$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jack wrote... > Hans Franke also > gave a (relatively) impromptu presentation on photographing vintage > computers. I forgot to corner Hans and ask him to condense that to a knowledgebase article ;) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 31 21:28:14 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:28:14 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? References: Message-ID: <014f01c59640$ac7f89c0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote.... > The first VCF had 90+ attendees and the second even more but I never did a > proper count. I'm sure Pat would know better than me. However, I'd bet a stash of HP 12920 mux sets that there was significantly more people walking in that room than 70 people. My rough looking around figured well over 95. Jay From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jul 31 22:15:34 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 22:15:34 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <200507311821.49520.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200507311821.49520.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200507312215.34610.pat@computer-refuge.org> Patrick Finnegan declared on Sunday 31 July 2005 06:21 pm: > Bill Sudbrink declared on Sunday 31 July 2005 12:17 pm: > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > On Sunday 31 July 2005 00:16, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > > > > Would love to hear from anyone who attended today -- how'd it > > > > go? > > > > > > Everyone I talked to seemed to think it went fantastically, > > > especially for a first time event. We ended up with 12 exhibitors > > > (including 1 that showed up at the event with no warning), and all > > > 8 vendor and consignment tables will filled up. > > > > > > The estimated head count for the exhibits was about 70 (paid) > > > people, which was a little less than expected, but still a pretty > > > good turnout. I think we had a slightly smaller turnout (~50) for > > > the speakers. > > > > Pictures, pictures please. > > Ok, my roommate has just posted the pictures he took. They don't yet > have descriptions, but that's something I can work on over the next > couple days... > > The first pic its what I brought for the consignment sale myself. > Pics 4141-4149 are of Ethan's talk; "4147" has me on the left, and > Ethan Dicks on the right. Pics 4150-4152 are of Hans's talk, > 4153-4160 are of Ray's talk, 4161 is me messing with the a/v recording > stuff, 4162 is of the cameraman (Alan Braunsdorf), and the rest are of > exhibits. > > I'll try to get proper labels and digitized video of the speakers made > available. URL, since I'm aparently retarded: http://www.sydelko.org/gallery/VCF-MW-2005?page=1 -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From brain at jbrain.com Sun Jul 31 23:25:39 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:25:39 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink In-Reply-To: <50373.68.155.21.7.1122599667.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> References: <50631.68.155.21.7.1122588678.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> <42E9761E.80203@jbrain.com> <50373.68.155.21.7.1122599667.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> Message-ID: <42EDA443.3020903@jbrain.com> Jeff Davis wrote: >>From my programmer's point of view, it was an event driven system - I called a >library routine to register that my routine X handled a particular client >token. When a user clicked a button on a form, it would send down a specific >token and some data, which the front-end layers would decode, check it's token >table to see who handled it, then call the handler and pass the data. The >handler routine would do something, then send back to the client another token >and data. There were a lot of system routines in between me and the client >that would take care of formatting and sending the data to and from the >client. > > QLink does not appear to use FDO (AOL speak). I had considered using an event model (register for the token of interest, when it arrives, call the handler), but there is an order and state to things as well. When you first log on, you must send a D3, client sends D6, you send DO, etc. FOr a dialog box, you send ZM, it sends ZO, you send ZT ZT ZT ZQ, it sends ZA, etc. So, there is an order to things required. IN steady-state, I can see where just calling registered handlers would work, but not sure when the system is in steady state. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Sun Jul 31 15:17:58 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:17:58 -0500 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <200507300708.j6U780d20481@pop-2.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: <200507312026.j6VKQwd6091712@keith.ezwind.net> I have seen something like that. It essentially simulates a telephone network. You would use it to test modems, for example, or to connect machines that had internal modems. I think I saw it being sold by Black Box. They are not the cheapest outfit in the world. It's like buying at the local convenience store. IIRC they were over five hundred dollars. HTH, Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Bartusek > Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 2:11 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Analog modem emulator? > > Just curious...has there ever been a device available to > anyone's knowledge that functions like an analog phone line > and allows transmission via TCPIP? > For example, taking an older BBS system that has 5 internal > modems in it, and plugging the lines into this "mystery" > device and then being able to telnet to different ports and > it makes the connection to one of the ports? > > I've seen the UDS-10 device from Lantronix to emulate a > serial modem, so essentially you can telnet to it from > another PC and it fakes the computer into thinking someone's > "ringing the phone, etc...but I want to take it one step > back...leave the modems in place but emulate the phone lines. > > If it rings any bells, or if someone can think of a scenario > this might be needed in, please drop me a note and maybe > it'll help me track down something... > > Thanks! > Pete > > From vrs at email.msn.com Sun Jul 31 23:54:29 2005 From: vrs at email.msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:54:29 -0700 Subject: need to read 8" floppies on pdp8 References: <008101c59448$199c5880$6801a8c0@studio> Message-ID: From: "thom restivo" > I have a semi-urgent need to read some 8" floppies that I believe were > created on a pdp8 system. Does anyone have the hardware available or > know what I need to find to accomplish this task? How about the i/o card > for the pdp8? I have access to an 8" floppy drive that was used on a > pdp11 (rx01/rx02). I could probably help with this, but I am about as geographically inconvenient as one can get in the lower 48 states. Vince (in Oregon)