From vcf at siconic.com Sat Feb 26 14:15:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:15:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple //gs RamFAST/SCSI with CD-ROM troubles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Feb 2005, Ronald Wayne wrote: > Which version of the OS are you using? 6.0.1 > System 6.0.1 for the Apple IIgs is available as a free download from > Apple (check here: > http://www.info.apple.com/support/oldersoftwarelist.html). It does > include support for HFS if you chose to install it. Can you just grab > the file from the floppy and drop it on the hard drive's system > folder? I would imagine so, but I never tried it. Using the > installer is slightly easier (albeit slower). I copied the file directly into the FSTS directory. Should I have used the installer? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From technobug at comcast.net Sat Feb 26 14:19:57 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:19:57 -0700 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <200502261805.j1QI5beU025403@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200502261805.j1QI5beU025403@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <34e6173c8da951282ad3894a02a62b59@comcast.net> Nico de Jong mused: >> It could be interesting to know the age"spread" of thist list >> contributors, and how long we've had the computer virus under >> our skin. >> Age: around 1700 fortnights... First glimpse of the deamon occurred relatively late in life (as measured by this crowd) when working on an Army missile project in '65 which was the first to use PERT. Shoved in cards and got back reams of paper. The following year learned patch-panel programming on a punch card system in the jungle. The real bug was caught in grad school when our department got a PDP-8. Spent one night with the beast and taught myself FOCAL. Shortly after, our group got a Nova 1200 attached to a pulse-height analyzer which one programmed by reading in tapes on a clunk-clunk and punching out results (editor in -> program out, compiler in-> program in-> assembly out, assembler in -> assembly code in-> object out, object in-> run program -- one did not make a mistake). Language was the Algol (with which DG wrote RTOS and RDOS). And then along came a PDP-9 with 3 DEC tapes and 8 kwords of memory and my invention of the operating system - that is until I found out that the box came with one. Wrote my first GUI program in FORTRAN 4 on that box - a background fitting affair that used a light pen on the displayed data (can you say Chain...?). Read in the data from the Nova and printed a graph of the result. Beat feeding cards to the CDC6400 and waiting a day to get back results. Went on to gin up a data collection system on a Modcomp which we took on tour around the US collecting data from a U2 flying a laser. Subsequent work on a disertation used the system to feed data to a DEC10 which front-ended a Cyber on which I churned through many CPU hours (and $) crunching the data. Escaped from academia and started a company in which we developed a automation controller using the National 32016 using a VAX730 as the development tool. That VAX ran 7 years with a down time of less than a week... Brought the beast home when the company folded, but adopted it out to a list member when I realized that I could only run it on winter nights with the doors open. My first personal computer was a LISA. Real multi-tasking with a real GUI - (Oh Steve why did you stray from the true path....). Current project is designing passive filters using a genetic algorithm (gasp!!) - the fitness function is fuzzy :-P My current collection consists of a smattering of Macs of various vintage, a VAX3540 (used to be two 3520s), Sun 1000E, and an Alfa server which isn't up and running yet. Hey, the game is still fun and I'm not about to quit. CRC From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Sat Feb 26 14:26:04 2005 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:26:04 -0500 Subject: Many things In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050226202604.GB20608@jdboyd.zill.net> On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 10:14:56PM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I do mess with audio and video processing (my Digital Audio > Workstation is nearing the 10 year mark), but I must confess the > addiction that isn't really practical for me on classic HW is > "Desktop Publishing", and that's mainly due to image editing. The > video is only possible on modern HW as I'm doing Anamorphic > Widescreen home movie DVD's with Dolby Digital sound. I would think image editing could be done easily on classic machines. The Onyx is well over 10 years old, and it runs the Gimp pretty well. An Indy is about 10 years old and it will run photoshop 3 decently. And there are, of course, the irix specific paint programs, if you can find them. Like Matador, Amazon, Satori, or TV Paint. And let's not forget StudioPaint. A desktop publishing program would be harder to find, though Scribus has been ported to Irix if you are willing to run a new OS on your classic SGI. There is framemaker as well. I'm sure there must have been plenty of other programs, but I have no idea what they are. -- Joshua D. Boyd jdboyd at jdboyd.net http://www.jdboyd.net/ http://www.joshuaboyd.org/ From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Feb 26 14:43:17 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:43:17 -0500 Subject: Reading 8" disks on a PC (was Re: Need NEC APC manuals) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:39:32 PST." <42318.64.139.41.130.1109363972.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <200502262043.j1QKhHin007279@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Eric Smith" wrote: > >Yes. And Linux software of my own devising: > http://dmklib.brouhaha.com/ very cool. thanks! -brad From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Feb 26 14:44:55 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:44:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Age, was Re: IBM mainframe goes for 99 cents In-Reply-To: <1109448213.4895.0.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > Most people start at zero ;-) Unless yoy worked at Univac. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Feb 26 14:47:46 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:47:46 -0600 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <1109445428.1053.6.camel@kendall.jdfogg.com> References: <4220C5FE.1000706@jetnet.ab.ca> <6.2.1.2.2.20050226124419.035c55b0@mail.earthlink.net> <1109443211.30117.17.camel@kendall.jdfogg.com> <4220C5FE.1000706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050226144703.0819cab0@localhost> On the BoatAnchor net (ham radio stuff) they live by this: REAL radios GLOW IN THE DARK. (And keep the shack warm.) At 02:17 PM 2/26/2005 -0500, you wrote: > > >I am now self-employed and hoping I don't put myself out of business ;-) > > > > > > > > Well you can allways go back to TUBE audio ... as hobby :) Now is a > > good time for I think > > to go back to tube amps if you build your own hardware and you don't > > already have a system. > > Ben alias Woodelf. > >I suppose I could. I wouldn't hate it. There seems to be a resurgence in >glass audio. Some claim it sounds better (I always thought it did). Not >to brag, but I was talking to who lives in the >next town over. He was saying he wants to get some old tube guitar amps >fixed. I didn't think of it at the time, but maybe I could get my foot >in the door of the rock tech support field. Hmmmm... multi-hundred watt >amplifiers and hot women. A geek's dream. [Commentary] War talk by men who have been in a war is always interesting, whereas moon talk by a poet who has not been in the moon is likely to be dull. --Twain --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Feb 26 14:35:32 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:35:32 -0600 Subject: C Users Journal archives? Message-ID: <4220DD94.5000209@oldskool.org> I am going crazy trying to find the text of an article in the October 1992 issue of "The C Users Journal" without paying $80 (the official fee of the CDROM containing all the texts). Does anyone have this issue and would be willing to scan a few pages for me? I'd be willing to pay you $10 or so for your time... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jwest at dewey.classiccmp.org Sat Feb 26 14:37:09 2005 From: jwest at dewey.classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:37:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: test Message-ID: <200502262037.j1QKb9Dx003935@dewey.classiccmp.org> This is a test post. Jay From anon2048 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 26 14:53:40 2005 From: anon2048 at hotmail.com (Anon 2048) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:53:40 -0600 Subject: test Message-ID: another test From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Feb 26 14:56:52 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:56:52 -0500 Subject: Age, was Re: IBM mainframe goes for 99 cents In-Reply-To: Message from "David V. Corbin" of "Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:15:57 EST." Message-ID: <200502262056.j1QKuqkc008035@mwave.heeltoe.com> "David V. Corbin" wrote: > >Born 1959 [45 year old], started programming PDP-8's in the fall of '72. I could swear I used a 8/I running TSS/8 in '70. Might have been '71. But might wrong about that. Anyone have any idea when the first 8/I's got shipped? (this one had 4 8/L's strapped to it with those nifty green storage scopes and a funky joystick. we had a lot of fun playing a 'snowball' game written in a focal varient called COLPAC) -brad From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Sat Feb 26 14:49:14 2005 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:49:14 -0500 Subject: NTSC test pattern generator on VCD? In-Reply-To: <41FD5497.1070605@oldskool.org> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050130150410.055dfa48@mail> <41FD5497.1070605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050226204914.GC20608@jdboyd.zill.net> On Sun, Jan 30, 2005 at 03:41:43PM -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > John Foust wrote: > >Several companies made/make such devices. I remember the NwTek Calibar > > That was awesome. > > >http://www.itworks.com/products/portapattern-basic.htm > > That is *not* awesome -- it is a USB key running software. You hook it > into a laptop and the laptop is the generator. See my previous message on > not being able to trust the output of computers (noisy, wrong levels, etc.) What do you think a lot of modern video and audio equipment is? A very large amount of modern gear is computer driven. Even simple stuff like video delays. Further, the unit in question takes downloads from a laptop, it isn't actually operated by the laptime. The device quite likely has a computer inside none the less. And it might even suck, I've never used one. The miniphone to RCA adapter is highly unimpressive for one thing. It seems they should have been able to stick a BNC on the unit directly. -- Joshua D. Boyd jdboyd at jdboyd.net http://www.jdboyd.net/ http://www.joshuaboyd.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 26 15:04:12 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:04:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: origins of IBM 3740 diskette format In-Reply-To: <003201c51b01$0332b820$2101a8c0@finans> References: <20050224194755.7264.h016.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> <003201c51b01$0332b820$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <20050226130242.H31529@shell.lmi.net> Yes, but,... In FORTRAN, columns 73 - 80 are reserved for housekeeping, such as resequencing dropped decks. THerefore, the information content in FORTRAN could be said to be 72 bytes per card, NOT 80. From appleto at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 15:04:23 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:04:23 -0500 Subject: long term computers In-Reply-To: <200502261249.21416.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <4220A978.30203@jetnet.ab.ca> <200502261249.21416.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:49:19 -0500, Mike wrote: > http://d116.com/spud/ > this one was referened on the theregister recently Ah yes, somebody was showing me rfPICs last year. Just imagine a wireless webserver the size of a match head. :) I remember thinking at the time, 'how does this thing compare to an Apple II?' Of course the guy showing it to me didn't have the slightest idea because he didn't know what a 6502 was. So perhaps I should ask here: how would your typical 2005 vintage PIC compare to a early-1980's vintage 8-bit microprocessor? From what little I could gather the interface with the outside world is terribly limited (something like four lines on the chip I was looking at, one of which was special purpose) but that is slightly negated by the thing having an, albeit miniscule, amount of memory on chip. From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Sat Feb 26 15:18:56 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:18:56 -0600 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <0502261943.AA04708@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0502261943.AA04708@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <4220E7C0.6050203@vzavenue.net> Born in 1954. Got the computer bug in the late 1970's. My first machine was a no-name 8080 based SBC that I purchased as a kit. Of course I didn't know their idea of a kit was was bare board and a big bag of parts. But it worked and I was on my way. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Sat Feb 26 15:04:54 2005 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:04:54 -0500 Subject: [OT]Homebrew PCB fabrication In-Reply-To: References: <4218E180.4030500@gjcp.net> <42192407.9080609@ecubics.com> <42192793.7020106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050226210454.GD20608@jdboyd.zill.net> On Sun, Feb 20, 2005 at 08:06:38PM -0500, 9000 VAX wrote: > I think I can say something here because I am drawing the PCB for my > project. A good free CAD software is the gEDA suit, including gschem > (schematic), gsch2pcb(schematic to PCB translator), gerbv (Gerber > viewer), and pcb (PCB). It is time for you guys to install linux in > your computer since you guys are computer geeks anyway! A friend uses PCB heavily for his work, and PCB has been used for some fairly high projects. It looks like good stuff. I've only fiddled with it though. But, I'd like to point out that the stuff will run on Solaris and likely other OSs. No need to install linux just for that. > The cheap double side PCB will cost you $33 each > (http://www.33each.com) for 3 boards, and could be lower than $10 for > 44 square inch boards with quantity of 100. Sounds like a reasonable price. -- Joshua D. Boyd jdboyd at jdboyd.net http://www.jdboyd.net/ http://www.joshuaboyd.org/ From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Sat Feb 26 15:05:38 2005 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:05:38 -0500 Subject: [OT]Homebrew PCB fabrication In-Reply-To: <42192793.7020106@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4218E180.4030500@gjcp.net> <42192407.9080609@ecubics.com> <42192793.7020106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050226210538.GE20608@jdboyd.zill.net> On Sun, Feb 20, 2005 at 05:13:07PM -0700, woodelf wrote: > PS the homebrew computer using CPLD's is going to need a far bigger > board than demo PCB software gives. Why CPLDs over FPGAs? -- Joshua D. Boyd jdboyd at jdboyd.net http://www.jdboyd.net/ http://www.joshuaboyd.org/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 15:39:00 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:39:00 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Nico de Jong wrote: > > It could be interesting to know the age"spread" of thist list > > contributors, and how long we've had the computer virus under > > our skin. Born in 1966, started with 4K chicklet-keyboard PETs at the downtown public library in 1977 (none of my schools to that point could ever afford a computer). Had a friend with a Quest Elf around the same time frame, so jumped from 100% BASIC to mixed assembler/BASIC pretty early on. Saved up half the money for a PET 2001N-32K (still have it) in 1979. Got first computer job at 15, programming a prototype C-64 (s/n P00002008) for Bruce & James Software, "Wordvision 64" demo. They went on to release Wordvision for the PC before going bankrupt. Wrote kids games published by Reader's Digest Software until that company folded when Reader's Digest terminated their kids software line. Picked up a PDP-8/L at the Dayton Hamvention, in the meantime, starting a long association with DEC computers. Turned that association into a career with Software Results Corp, making HASP/3780/SNA COMBOARD protocol engines based on the MC68000, first as hardware technician, later as System Manager, finally as lead programmer. Got my first taste of UNIX there, in 1984. After a few minutes on a VAX-11/750 w/2MB of RAM and 2xRK07 (28MB) running 4.1BSD (that I now have in my quonset hut), I *knew* that UNIX had a future. I've spent the past 20 years doing UNIX and VMS administration and programming to different degrees at different places. Started dabbling in Linux with the 0.9 kernels, whenever they added native (non-patched) SCSI support. Did first Slackare install in mid-1992 from a huge stack of numbered floppies. Just got back from a year at the South Pole running a neutrino telescope (AMANDA) for the University of Wisconsin, that depends on two dozen Linux machines, and a dozen VME crates to collect, archive, and forward gigs of data per hour. It's been one of my favorite jobs of all time, not just because of the location, but because I got to use all of my admin and electronics skills I've been building for my entire career. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Feb 26 15:42:52 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:42:52 -0500 Subject: Age, was Re: IBM mainframe goes for 99 cents In-Reply-To: <1109448213.4895.0.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200502261213.HAA18440@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109448213.4895.0.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200502261642.52371.pat@computer-refuge.org> Jules Richardson declared on Saturday 26 February 2005 03:03 pm: > On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 22:02 +0800, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > > Born 1966 (age 39). > > Most people start at zero ;-) ??? 1966 + 39 = 2005. That's the current year, unless during my intoxication last night, I built a time machine and sent myself back 1 year in time. :) However, that seems somewhat unlikely. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Feb 26 15:47:44 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:47:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <1109443211.30117.17.camel@kendall.jdfogg.com> from James Fogg at "Feb 26, 5 01:40:11 pm" Message-ID: <200502262147.NAA18532@floodgap.com> 28. Started with a Tomy Tutor and then a Commodore 64, although I'd also been exposed to TIs and Apple IIs by this point. Developed a taste for Unix during college (naturally, as a University of California graduate, I prefer BSD). Most of my technical background, besides medicine, is in database administration. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm in perpetual denial." ---------------- From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Sat Feb 26 15:37:22 2005 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:37:22 -0500 Subject: Many things In-Reply-To: References: <0501290052.AA20831@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <1107027831.27506.40.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050129184357.S977@localhost> <20050130134155.0b1d0e90.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200501301932.OAA18051@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <41FD4744.3000009@oldskool.org> <20050130220315.U18147@localhost> <200501310627.BAA19231@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050226213722.GG20608@jdboyd.zill.net> On Sun, Jan 30, 2005 at 11:11:02PM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Sadly I'm not sure you're going to be able to find a good current > colour printer that doesn't do it :^( Maybe someone could write custom firmware for an existing printer? -- Joshua D. Boyd jdboyd at jdboyd.net http://www.jdboyd.net/ http://www.joshuaboyd.org/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Feb 26 16:04:20 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:04:20 -0600 Subject: server maintenance Message-ID: <003701c51c4f$1fd16d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Looks like I have the mailing list running on the new server. Please send any problems to me offlist at jwest at classiccmp.org Of course, to do this, I had to pick if I moved web or list services first. I chose list services. Any classiccmp websites I host gratis - if they have their own domain they should be ok, otherwise (they are tied to the classiccmp.org domain), they are down till I get them moved. This will likely be a longish process. I apologize for the inconvenience. I'll email again when all seems to be done. Jay From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Feb 26 16:05:26 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:05:26 -0500 Subject: IBM mainframe goes for 99 cents In-Reply-To: <421EA27F.70305@verizon.net> References: <20050224165748.71827.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> <200502241623.15810.pat@computer-refuge.org> <421EA27F.70305@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200502261705.26915.pat@computer-refuge.org> JimD declared on Thursday 24 February 2005 10:58 pm: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >On Thu, 24 Feb 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > >>Who else on this list owns a mainframe? What the heck do you DO > >>with it? > > > > > > Talk about a mainframe, well actually a real big farm, take a look at > this. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64031&item=5754 >425731&rd=1 Still listed in the top 500 supers. Battell surplus. zero > bids, $12,500 starting bid. > Jim Davis. > I would get it, if I had free power. Despite what the seller claims, it's definately too slow to be on the top500 list. When I looked into it, I found out it was last on the list in June of 2002, and wasn't very high up (low 300s). The machine is (or was, with all of the frames, which the seller doesn't seem to have in the auction listing) only 512 processors of 120/135MHz processors. They're not horribly slow, but definately not computationally worthwhile. The ~900 processors of IBM SP (375MHz POWER3) we have at work (well, we've got 320 now, soon to add another 576) won't even make it onto the TOP500 list this next time around I'm pretty sure. As far as memory and disk space go, you'll probably be using up a good chunk of the disk space per node for OS and software; and the memory is evenly distributed between all the nodes. Having a large amount of contiguous memory and disk (like what you can with an IBM p690) is much more interesting from an HPC standpoint. :) One rack of the SP system would be sort of cool to have, but having that many frames just doesn't make any sense no matter how I try to look at it. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Feb 26 16:12:47 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:12:47 -0700 Subject: Age References: <4220C5FE.1000706@jetnet.ab.ca> <6.2.1.2.2.20050226124419.035c55b0@mail.earthlink.net> <1109443211.30117.17.camel@kendall.jdfogg.com> <4220C5FE.1000706@jetnet.ab.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20050226144703.0819cab0@localhost> Message-ID: <4220F45F.5090607@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Peters wrote: > On the BoatAnchor net (ham radio stuff) they live by this: REAL radios > GLOW IN THE DARK. > > (And keep the shack warm.) Err my real radio is broken... anybody want to fix a Trans-oceanic with no short wave, just BC . No wait this is vintage computers. Ben alias woodelf. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Feb 26 16:23:51 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:23:51 -0700 Subject: long term computers References: <4220A978.30203@jetnet.ab.ca> <200502261249.21416.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <4220F6F7.4030206@jetnet.ab.ca> Ronald Wayne wrote: > On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:49:19 -0500, Mike wrote: > >>http://d116.com/spud/ >>this one was referened on the theregister recently > > > Ah yes, somebody was showing me rfPICs last year. Just imagine a > wireless webserver the size of a match head. :) > > I remember thinking at the time, 'how does this thing compare to an > Apple II?' Of course the guy showing it to me didn't have the > slightest idea because he didn't know what a 6502 was. > > So perhaps I should ask here: how would your typical 2005 vintage PIC > compare to a early-1980's vintage 8-bit microprocessor? From what > little I could gather the interface with the outside world is terribly > limited (something like four lines on the chip I was looking at, one > of which was special purpose) but that is slightly negated by the > thing having an, albeit miniscule, amount of memory on chip. From what I remeber from a quick look at them on the web looking for other stuff: They tend to be small-ish RISC computers. 128 bytes of ram 2k of rom and some I/O pins ... Hey wait that sounds like PDP-8 again -- have we come full circle? Ben alias woodelf From kenziem at sympatico.ca Sat Feb 26 16:29:54 2005 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:29:54 -0500 Subject: lk201 question Message-ID: <200502261729.56250.kenziem@sympatico.ca> I just picked up a lk201 keyboard today that wouldn't work with a vt320 Unlike my other lk201's this one has blue strip across the top, an orange pf1 key, f20 is labeled Hyph Push PN: LK201BA One site selling them says it is a word processing keyboard. red lights and an error 4 on a VT 330. How many variations of LK201 were produced? Are they interchangeable? Also heard about a PLATO system now online, I'm waiting for more details. -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Machines to trade http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/trade.html Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca From brain at jbrain.com Sat Feb 26 16:24:45 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:24:45 -0600 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <200502262147.NAA18532@floodgap.com> References: <200502262147.NAA18532@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4220F72D.3010306@jbrain.com> To help keep the median age down: I became on 1971 (34) First PC was a VIC-20 in early 1982, because my Dad would not let me buy an Atari 2600. Fate just seemed like a mean Dad back then. Paid for it myself. $300 got me the unit, 2 games, no storage. Played the games, put it in a box, and forgot about it until late '83, where I found my 7th grade homeroom filled with VIC-20's. The math teacher (it was his room) took me under his wing, showed me the PET 8032's in the high school with a 300 bps direct connect TNW-103 modem. Dialed my first BBS at the time. That was the start of the love affair. Bought a 64 in 1984/5, and used it until my senior year in college, 1992, where I had to break down and get a PC. The University of Illinois got me exposure to Sequent (undergrad accounts) IBM RT-11, RS-6000, and PLATO, for those who know what that is. Used to dial into the local modem bank to the machines from the C64 using Novaterm to do homework, and had a PLATO emulator for the 64, but can't find it anymore. I also developed a taste for UNIX in college. I managed a student lab at one point. Before I took over, we swapped out some funky 80186 3Com server hardware running the lab for OS/2 1.3 (No workplace shell). Later, MS came and talked to us about the greatness they felt was Windows NT for powering the labs. Left UIUC with a degree in Electrical and Computer Engineering, but software jobs paid more, so went that route. I skipped the Amiga train (paid for AmigaWorld magazine for years, but never got an actual unit), so mainly I collect CBM 8-bit stuff. I had some Northstar stuff for a while, but never got into it. I try not to buy new PCs, creating Linux boxen at the house from parts I get upgrading other's people's PCs. They make great peripherals for my CBM units. I've never seen a real PDP of any vintage, though I did get a private tour of the NCSA building with the Cray and the Thinking Machines hardware (NCSA hired undergrads to admin the boxes) Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From ohh at drizzle.com Sat Feb 26 16:33:22 2005 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:33:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age, was Re: IBM mainframe goes for 99 cents In-Reply-To: <200502262056.j1QKuqkc008035@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: Quoth Brad Parker: > Anyone have any idea when the first 8/I's got shipped? Not specifically, but I suspect a good guess would be 1968. If I remember right - my bookshelves are at home, but I'm at work - the 1967 Small Computer Handbook dealt primarily with the -8, -8/S and LINC/8, and the 1968 edition dealt with the 8/I. I suspect the machine and the handbook weren't _too_ far apart. :) -O.- From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Feb 26 15:04:35 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:04:35 -0600 Subject: Age, was Re: IBM mainframe goes for 99 cents In-Reply-To: <001401c51be6$d6e30f40$2101a8c0@finans> References: <001401c51be6$d6e30f40$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <4220E463.9020708@oldskool.org> Nico de Jong wrote: >>Sellam wrote : >> >>That's fine, because if you play your cards right you'll most likely end >>up out-living most of us here and then you can piss on all our graves. >> > > It could be interesting to know the age"spread" of thist list contributors, > and how long we've had the computer virus under our skin. > I myself turn 60 next time, and have been in this business sinc 1967 or so, I am not nearly old enough to really be a member of this list. :-) My father was a tech writer with teletype and he would bring home various toys, like a vt100 line/signal analyzer (hope I'm remembering that properly) and various computer-like things. In 1980, I played Adventure on an Osborne luggable; in 1983 I connected to BBSes and Compuserve using a (rich) friend's IBM PC Model 5150; also did much (MUCH) Apple II stuff in school from 1980-1985. In 1985 I got my very own PC clone and, being an antisocial nerd, I went crazy with it. Maybe a better way to understand myself and my background is to look at my collection, which is mostly 1980-era personal computers, including stuff like: 2 5150s 1 5160 clone 1 XT/286 (NOT AT, the XT/286, can't remember exact model number) 2 C64s (NTSC) 1 Timex Sinclair 1000 with various tapes and expansions 1 Mac 512 1 Mac SE 6 Amigas (2 A500s, 1 A1200, 2 A4000s, 1 A3000) I also tend to like wacko x86 hardware: 2 PS/2 Model 25s 2 Panasonic Sr. Partners (luggables with built-in thermal printers) 1 AT&T PC 6300 (my first clone, still works, upgraded in crazy ways) 2 PCjrs with various sidecars, ROM carts, add-ons Various Tandys (Tandy 1000, 1000HD, TL/2, maybe others) I still program for x86 and last year I won a competition for programming a stock IBM 5150 (4.77Mhz, 8088, 640K RAM, Sound Blaster Pro, CGA, 10MB MFM) to display 30 frame-per-second full-screen video sync'd with 22Khz sound. This same program is up for an award in March at Breakpoint 2005 for Best Original Production. I am still developing the technology (up to 60fps now and 44KHz audio) and hopefully will have something even more impressive for next year. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Feb 26 15:35:28 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 21:35:28 -0000 Subject: More info Re: Digital Data Syatems / SETASI memory card for PDP11 References: <010d01c51aca$405ed580$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <005301c51c4b$186abb20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> >in my PDP11/45, the originla core and bipolar memory has been replaced by a Hex height Digital Data Systems inc. / >SETASI memory card (placed in the 1st SU - the original Fastbus memory slots are now unused). I know the system ran >like this, as it is documented in the local handbook. > >Does anyone have any information on these cards? Especially the settings of the jumper and the DIP switches! After looking at the paperwork a bit more, it seems the module may have the designation UFUM Jim. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Feb 26 16:41:43 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:41:43 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <4220CE02.9040403@mdrconsult.com> References: <4220CD56.5090106@mdrconsult.com> <4220CE02.9040403@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200502261741.43477.pat@computer-refuge.org> Doc Shipley declared on Saturday 26 February 2005 02:29 pm: > Doc Shipley wrote: > > O. Sharp wrote: > >> Nico de Jong wrote, in part: > >>> It could be interesting to know the age"spread" of thist list > >>> contributors, > >>> and how long we've had the computer virus under our skin. 23 years old, born in 1981. Interested in "big computers" ever since I got a 1970s computers textbook from the local library's used book sale. Sadly, I don't have the book anymore (my parents threw it out ):, but I still have the interest. I've been on the list since before I could (legally) consume alcohol. ;) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Feb 26 17:16:25 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:16:25 -0700 Subject: [OT]Homebrew PCB fabrication References: <4218E180.4030500@gjcp.net> <42192407.9080609@ecubics.com> <42192793.7020106@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050226210538.GE20608@jdboyd.zill.net> Message-ID: <42210349.2000301@jetnet.ab.ca> Joshua Boyd wrote: > On Sun, Feb 20, 2005 at 05:13:07PM -0700, woodelf wrote: > > >>PS the homebrew computer using CPLD's is going to need a far bigger >>board than demo PCB software gives. > > > Why CPLDs over FPGAs? > A) They are programmed on power up -- no loading from a serial prom. B) I can program them with the demo PCB. C) Lots of I/O pins ... well before you read the fine print. D) PLCC packaging. E) Low cost compared to a FPGA and serial rom. point is E is a matter of debate since I spent about $100 on the 9 cpld's. Ben alias woodelf From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Feb 26 17:49:54 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:49:54 -0700 Subject: long term computers In-Reply-To: <200502261249.21416.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <4220A978.30203@jetnet.ab.ca> <200502261249.21416.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <42210B22.4090605@jetnet.ab.ca> Mike wrote: >On Saturday 26 February 2005 11:53, woodelf wrote: > > >>Ronald Wayne wrote: >> >> >>>TTL going the way of the dodo?! Does this mean that I have to learn >>>about electronics now or I'm going to be stuck figuring out those many... >>> >>> >>They've mutated now - hundreds of pins sucking up your power and hogging >>all the ground. >> >> > >http://d116.com/spud/ > > That's a potato BUG ... not a real computer. :D From brain at jbrain.com Sat Feb 26 17:49:20 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:49:20 -0600 Subject: long term computers In-Reply-To: <4220F6F7.4030206@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4220A978.30203@jetnet.ab.ca> <200502261249.21416.kenziem@sympatico.ca> <4220F6F7.4030206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <42210B00.1050605@jbrain.com> Ben Franchuk wrote: > Ronald Wayne wrote: > >> On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:49:19 -0500, Mike wrote: >> >>> http://d116.com/spud/ >>> this one was referened on the theregister recently >> >> >> >> Ah yes, somebody was showing me rfPICs last year. Just imagine a >> wireless webserver the size of a match head. :) >> >> I remember thinking at the time, 'how does this thing compare to an >> Apple II?' Of course the guy showing it to me didn't have the >> slightest idea because he didn't know what a 6502 was. >> >> So perhaps I should ask here: how would your typical 2005 vintage PIC >> compare to a early-1980's vintage 8-bit microprocessor? From what >> little I could gather the interface with the outside world is terribly >> limited (something like four lines on the chip I was looking at, one >> of which was special purpose) but that is slightly negated by the >> thing having an, albeit miniscule, amount of memory on chip. > > From what I remeber from a quick look at them on the web looking for > other stuff: > They tend to be small-ish RISC computers. 128 bytes of ram > 2k of rom and some I/O pins ... Hey wait that sounds like PDP-8 > again -- have we come full circle? > Ben alias woodelf > A note that the Xgamestation uses a Ubicom SX52 (PIC compatible instruction set, 80MHz operation. For sheer speed, the newer parts win. The SX52 and some of the faster PICs, for example, can emulate a complete 1MHz 6502 entirely in SW. However, they have a number of limitations. Very small stack (SX has 1 level, I think PIC does as well), no self-modifying code (not a terrible thing...), very limited access to RAM. Small code storage size. It's probably more fair to compare the Atmel AVR 8-bit RISC line to the 6502. AVRs clock to 20MHz, have the ability to access 64kB of RAM in one chunk, 128kB of code space, and suitable stack size. Still no self-modifying code, but the rest stacks up well. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sat Feb 26 18:05:57 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 19:05:57 -0500 Subject: C Users Journal archives? In-Reply-To: <4220DD94.5000209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: I have a CD of >>> I am going crazy trying to find the Journal somewhere.... >>> the text of an article in I will try to look >>> the October 1992 issue of for it tomorrow >>> "The C Users Journal" ... From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Feb 26 18:18:42 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:18:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: 4 mainframe face panels for sale Message-ID: <20050227001842.5754.qmail@web40904.mail.yahoo.com> [quote] Looking to possibly sell - will send pictures. - I have a very unusual collection of 4 mainframe face panels (1410 - 360/40 - 370/145 - 370/158) and 14 control unit boxes that have nothing inside of them, I am thinking of selling them. I was in the computer service arena for 30 years. Thank You for your assistance- Dennis Correll correll at mwt.net [unquote] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Feb 26 18:21:52 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:21:52 -0600 Subject: server maintenance progress Message-ID: <00be01c51c62$56829ba0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> So far the list looks ok, and I'm going through all the classiccmp related websites and getting them up now. I have noticed that the new server seems to be very slow in delivering posts compared to the old server. This doesn't make a lot of sense, given the old server was a 1.2 P3 and the new server is a 2.0 P4. Go figure. However, since it seems to be working, I'm going to continue with the website migration and complete that. Then I'll turn back to the mailing list and find out why it's running slow, and, then finally start the work on the archives. Regards, Jay West From kth at srv.net Sat Feb 26 17:48:30 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:48:30 -0700 Subject: "HTML" Posting Tags, was Top-posting shenanigans In-Reply-To: <20050225211558.7E5AC73029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050225211558.7E5AC73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <42210ACE.6080702@srv.net> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Not when I first sent it in January of 1999, and certainly not this time > >(somewhere I have the code I wrote to generate this ... where that is, I >have no idea ... ) > > -spc (But hey! You inline replied!) > > If you're on Linux/Unix, check '/usr/games/morse'. Fair chance of something being there. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Feb 26 18:32:12 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 05 00:32:12 GMT Subject: lk201 question Message-ID: <0502270032.AA05324@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mike wrote: > How many variations of LK201 were produced? > Are they interchangeable? All LK201s are mechanically, electrically and functionally identical. The only difference is in keycap engravings. Yours doesn't work because there is something wrong with the keyboard or the terminal, not because it's different. MS From tomj at wps.com Sat Feb 26 18:33:37 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:33:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: DG Nova 4/x software hacking In-Reply-To: <20050226020828.R2353@localhost> References: <20050226020828.R2353@localhost> Message-ID: <20050226161950.F622@localhost> Well I seem to be heading towards a usable computer. Sat down with the manual and re-learned nspeed. First task was to write a script to create links in the working directory to all the utilities on DP0. Used the BUILD command (builds 'command tail file lists' in unixese), and wrote an iterative macro to hash it up. (There's no "path" to find executables (.SV); it must be in the current directory or directory specified. Directories in RDOS aren't heirarchical like they are in unix-derived paradigms; they're like little partitions, you more or less "mount" them with the DIR command (mounts the directory and makes it default directory) or INIT them ("mounts" them so you can copy to them, for instance.) You specify how many directories you can have mounted at the same time at SYSGEN time.) Build makes: ASM.SV,MAC.SV,FDUMP.SV,FOO.SV,BAR.SV, [and so on] I needed: LINK ASM.SV DP0:ASM.SV LINK MAC.SV DP0:MAC.SV ... The nspeed command is: 32<1BTABSAJ#C $ $BS0ILINK ^BA DP0:^BA $-1LT1L> Here's one of those maddening things that I'll figure out someday, and has some dubious reason. The command: S $-1D (Search for a CR) S $ (Delete 1 char before pointer) -1D Works fine maually. It doesn't work when iteration < and > is used! That's why I change all occurrences of CR to space in buffer A: #C $ $ That works. ^BA means 'insert the contents of buffer A' -1LT1L minus one line; type out line; plus one line, so it prints the results of edits as it goes. The leading 32< ... > Means 'iterate 32 times' because I didn't feel like coming up with a test for 'end of buffer'. Eh. Now to write a HELLO WORLD program! From classiccmp at crash.com Sat Feb 26 18:38:42 2005 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steve Jones) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 19:38:42 -0500 Subject: Age Message-ID: <1109464722.5569.131.camel@abort.crash.com> Okay, why not... Born in 1968, currently 36. First regular interaction was with an Apple ][ in about 1980-81, and some time on ASR33's talking to an unknown DEC BASIC timesharing system run by the Philadelphia public school system. Got an Apple //e in highschool. College brought a VAX-11/750 running VMS4.4 in late 1986; and Macs, Zenith IBM-clones, DEC Rainbows, and when I was allowed to visit the Inner Circle assorted S-100 gear. For one project I did a paper design (circuit and ucode) around the 74181 ALU, maybe someday I'll dust it off and actually build it. Didn't finish my degree before I got a job at MIT, as part of DECs ESL agreement - "hire a couple people, stop calling our support staff all the time, and we'll give you huge discounts." So it was mostly VMS and Unix support, noodling around on everything from MVIIs to 8800s. But I also wound up with a Sun-3/60 on my desk for duping tapes under their license program, and answered a lot of questions about them too. Every now and then I got a treat and someone would call me to look at a problem with their SGI gear... Lots of things since, but this is getting long. Not much discipline to the collection. DEC stuff (pdp-11, vax, alpha), Moto m88k, Nat Semi 32k, CompuPro S-100, and a couple Apple 8 bitters. --Steve. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Feb 26 18:56:49 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:56:49 GMT Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <1f1.3650b655.2f523088@aol.com> References: <1f1.3650b655.2f523088@aol.com> Message-ID: Well, first off, I was born in 1986, so I'm 18. A bit young, but there you go :) Let's see.. where to start.. Well, the first computer I actually used was an Acorn BBC Micro (Master 128 if I remember correctly) in primary school (age 8 or so). I talked to the IT teacher and she let me borrow the manual and some BBC BASIC guides. At the parent's evening that year she spoke to my mother and apparently said "Get this kid a computer!". I got a Spectrum +2A fpr ,y birthday, again with a load of programming books. Wrote a few games, then hit the limits of the hardware. A year or so later I had a fairly high end 486SX/25 with 4MB of RAM and a 160MB Conner hard drive, MS DOS 6 and Windows 3.1. I learned QBASIC, then Visual Basic, then didn't really do much programming until '96, when my uncle let me borrow his copy of Delphi 1.0 for the weekend (including the manuals). I learned ObjectPascal from that :) In '98 or '99 I managed to scrape together enough cash for a 56k modem, then got an account on Freenet UK - my first internet connection, on a K6-II/450. All of 56kbits a second. IIRC, I joined classiccmp in 2000 (might have been a bit later), then joined the MIT PICLIST a few months later. Getting ADSL in '03 really made the mail downloads go quicker - I've had my own fileserver running since mid-'02, late-'03, running Linux. As far as programming skills go - I know C, some C++, x86 assembler, PICmicro assembler (12, 14 and 16-bit varieties -- PIC12, PIC16 and PIC18 devices), QBASIC, Visual BASIC (DOS and Windows versions), Pascal and BBC BASIC. Other hobbies: Well, electronics is the main one. I'm entering the Parallax (www.parallax.com) SX Design Contest - all being well, I should be able to get the firmware for my entry stabilised within the next few hours. It's gonna be a long night! :) I'm a real tech nut - I won't go anywhere without my Minidisc recorder (Sony MZ-N710) and my mobile phone (Nokia 6210 or Samsung V200, depending on which one's charged at the time). Oh, and I've got a bit of a reputation for destroying hard drives when they fail. Usually with big drills and hammers. I'd love to see a thermite reaction melting a defunct IDE hard drive down at some point though :) Gee, I've just written most of my life story.. maybe I'll put this post on my website at some point :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... I believe I will take this opportunity to remove my ears. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 17:58:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:58:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Top-posting shenanigans (was: Re: ASR33 $1000+ And Counting...) In-Reply-To: <20050225171143.R5571@localhost> from "Tom Jennings" at Feb 25, 5 05:13:02 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > In Outlook, yes, it's a righteous pain. In PINE, as you might know, > > CTRL-J fixes most messed up quoted paragraphs. > > Eh?! Oh, you mean the pico editor! Too many brain cells pre-wired for > vi here. The mental case who picked ^J for that needs to be LARTed. Problem is, ^J is linefeed and if you happen to hit return on entering pico before it sets the terminal driver to raw mode, it'll justify the first paragraph of your file for you. If it happens to be a mail message you're replying to, then the '>' characters at the start of each line will mean the entire file is taken as one paragraph (no blank lines to mark the end of the paragraph) so you get a total mess. Yes, I understand 'J' for 'justify', but.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 18:01:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:01:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "HTML" Posting Tags, was Top-posting shenanigans In-Reply-To: from "chris" at Feb 25, 5 09:00:51 pm Message-ID: > > >If you can get any colour other than green (and black, I guess) out of an > >unmodified IBM 5151 monitor, I will eat a classic computer! > > If you connect it to a high voltage source, maybe you will get a brief > flash of yellow orange, red (and maybe blue) out of the back... followed > by some puffs of grey out the top. Maybe... If you apply the HV to the mains connector, I suspect the only thing that would fail would be the fuse (the 5151 has a linear PSU with a nice fat mains transformer at the input). If you apply it to the signal cable, well, it'll probably take out the input buffer chip (a '04 IIRC, I can't be bothered to go and get the schematics). Maybe some smoke. I doubt you'd get many interesting effects though. In any case, the monitor is not unchanged at the end, so I would class that as a modification :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 18:11:30 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:11:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "HTML" Posting Tags, was Top-posting shenanigans In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Feb 25, 5 09:23:47 pm Message-ID: > > Tony (and others), > > I wonder people (including members on this list) who use the justification, > that because they (generally) choose to use old hardware that it is a valid FWOW. I don't 'choose to use old hardware' I use what I consider to be the best solution I can get (and afford). That does not mean the latest, it doesn't necessarily mean the oldest. I do however refuse to use anything I can't fully understand and/or maintain. This does, alas, rule out much modern computer hardware... > reason for not making use of features that are available on even mildly > modern hardware. > > Should movie producers ONLY produce black and white movies because some > people only have B/W sets? _VERY_ bad example. All the colour TV stardards were designed to be 'both ways compatible' That is, a colour TV had to be able to correctly display a B&W signal (this was the easy way, since the set could be designed to detect the lack of colour information (the 'colour killer' circuit) and respond accordingly). And also an unmodified B&W TV had to be able to produce a good (albeit B&W) picture from a colour signal. People with B&W TVs did not lose out when colour TV signals came along. THey could still watch them, and get pictures like they'd always got. > Should newspapers and magazines only use one color, one font, etc because Interestingly, I stoppd reading one magazine when they started prinitng in colour. The schematic diagrams printed over 'interesting' coloured backgrounds gave me a headache. I think others felt likewise, the magazine stoped being published not long afterwarrds... Of the magazines I read, the one that could most benefit from colour would be 'Clocks' (a magazine for people interested in real, mechanical timepieces). And amazingly it's the one with the fewest colour pages per issue... > Just because my PDP-8 can't video conference or interact with my whiteboard, > doesn't mean I shouldn't use them. It would have been quite convient if I > there had been someone here on the list I could have interactively done > video with while I was tring to repair my ASR-33's [my mechanical skills are > limited = klutz]. Ever try to exactly explain what you are seeing when the > lever jam between the typing unit and the underside of the keycboard in > plain ascii? Yes!. You get the partsbook -- I get it off the bookshelf, you download it from bitsavers (I think) and print it. You then say something like 'Lever 12345 under the carriage is not moving forwards when...' And I say something like 'Check spring 45321 on the same diagram'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 18:14:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:14:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Why are transistors called "Q"? In-Reply-To: <20050226074828.UVAU1694.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Feb 26, 5 02:51:17 am Message-ID: > After French took over the RCA, they started putting weird location > marks: It goes like this: LL005 for fly, TL00x for transistor in > horizontal, TV00x for video transistor amps. So on. Totally That second character 'L' might well stand for 'line' which is the conventioal name for the hoprizontal deflection system over here. We talk abvout the 'line output trnasistor' where you'd say 'HOT'. Were the transistors in the vertical stages called 'TF00x'? 'F' being 'frame' or 'field' depending on how old you are. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 18:18:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:18:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "HTML" Posting Tags, was Top-posting shenanigans In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Feb 25, 5 11:34:47 pm Message-ID: > > I have to wonder if any mini or microcomputer family was ever NOT involved > with running a model railroad. I've never heard of a PERQ or a Philips P800 series being used for that. Perhaps I should remedy it :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 18:20:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:20:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Why are transistors called "Q"? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050225231940.0bb272d8@localhost> from "Tom Peters" at Feb 25, 5 11:26:37 pm Message-ID: > > "T" was taken (Transformer). That was also a problem when tubes began being= > =20 > used. I think they use X for tubes, don't they? Normally 'V' Certainly in UK manuals -- we call them 'valves', but HP and Tekky also use 'V'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 18:21:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:21:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Top Posting (from a digest subscribers P.O.V.) In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Feb 25, 5 10:14:11 pm Message-ID: > > There is a certain etiquette in place when talking on the telephone, right? > > Most of us say "Hello" at the beginning, "ByeBye" and the end, and engage > > Do we? I answer with, "What the hell do you want?", or if I'm feeling > nice, "This had better be good." However, I always end with, "Don't ever > call here again, you freak!" Please remind me not to bother calling you when I find a pile of Apple 1's 'Free to a good home' .... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 18:52:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:52:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Top Posting (from a digest subscribers P.O.V.) In-Reply-To: <006301c51c35$07924cc0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Feb 26, 5 01:57:32 pm Message-ID: > At the Keeble & Suchat(sp) camera store near Stanford there is > a guy upstairs (Pro cameras) named Richard. He answered > the phone: "Professional. Dick speaking." My mother woked for a time with a certain 'Frank A. Sweet'. He used to answer the 'phone 'Sweet FA here'. Seriously... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 18:31:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:31:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Age, was Re: IBM mainframe goes for 99 cents In-Reply-To: <001401c51be6$d6e30f40$2101a8c0@finans> from "Nico de Jong" at Feb 26, 5 10:37:50 am Message-ID: > It could be interesting to know the age"spread" of thist list contributors, > and how long we've had the computer virus under our skin. > I myself turn 60 next time, and have been in this business sinc 1967 or so, > where I got a Cobol course as an "education by mail" (dont know the correct > english term for that one OK, I'm 37. I've been interested in electronics for as long as I can remember, I built my first transsitor radio about 32 years ago. I've never really been interested in programming/software, I'm very much the hardware type. The fact that computers are interesting pieces of heardware is why I collect, restore, etc them. This might explain why I like to keep the hardware of my machines as original as possible, even for things like power supplies. The power supply _was_ part of the original design, it should be preserved (and if you think all SMPSUs are the same, then, boy, have I got news for you...) My first computer (not suprisingly) was a Sinclair -- in my case an MK14. That put me how his designs for life. I've used some of the others, I've never found one I consider to be even moderately well-designed. I then got a TRS-80 Model 1, used Beebs and RML380Zs at school and fooled around with some other micros. Then I went to university and picked up the Philips P850. Chatting to a friend about it that night (this was some 19 years ago), we realiased that unless something was done -- and fast -- a lot of computer history was going to be lost for ever. At the time, museums were not bothering to preserve common micros and minis. So we did something about it. We (I suspect particularly me) started collecting everything we could get our grubby little hands on. The rest, as they say, is history... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 19:03:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 01:03:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: lk201 question In-Reply-To: <200502261729.56250.kenziem@sympatico.ca> from "Mike" at Feb 26, 5 05:29:54 pm Message-ID: > > I just picked up a lk201 keyboard today that wouldn't work with a vt320 Are you sure it's not defective? An LK201 (any LK201) with a matrix short (very common) will behave as you described. > > Unlike my other lk201's this one has blue strip across the top, an orange pf1 > key, f20 is labeled Hyph Push > > PN: LK201BA > > One site selling them says it is a word processing keyboard. I've seen something like that used on a DECmate II. AFAIK it was a standard LK201 apart from the labels and keycaps and would work on a VT320, etc. > > red lights and an error 4 on a VT 330. > > How many variations of LK201 were produced? > Are they interchangeable? AFAIK they all had the same internal ciecuit and firmware and were interchangeable. Of course the LK250 is something totally different.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 18:39:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:39:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM mainframe goes for 99 cents In-Reply-To: <200502261122.LAA31296@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Feb 26, 5 11:22:54 am Message-ID: > Even better is when you get so well known locally that people bring stuff > you! Someone gave brought me a big box of stuff pulled out of an old My father came home one day (before he retired) and said 'Is a DEC PRO350 of any interest'. Of course I replied in the affirmative to which he said 'OK, there's one in the back of the car for you'. I then received a _loaded_ PRO 350 (it even has an ethernet card in it...), a VR241 monitor, keyboard and the proper desk for it with the motorised column for the monitor..... -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Feb 26 19:35:31 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:35:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <34e6173c8da951282ad3894a02a62b59@comcast.net> References: <200502261805.j1QI5beU025403@huey.classiccmp.org> <34e6173c8da951282ad3894a02a62b59@comcast.net> Message-ID: <33647.64.169.63.74.1109468131.squirrel@64.169.63.74> CRC wrote: > My first personal computer was a LISA. Real multi-tasking with a real > GUI - (Oh Steve why did you stray from the true path....). The Lisa's multitasking was real enough, but misinformation about it has gotten out of hand. Most people now claim that it used preemptive multitasking, while in fact the OS was very deliberately designed to use cooperative multitasking. Bruce Daniels, author of the Lisa OS, explained the choice in the paper "Architecture of the Lisa Personal Computer" in the March 1984 issue of Proceedings of the IEEE: The CPU is multiplexed among the runnable processes by using a priority based nonpreemptive scheduling algorithm. This nonpreemptive scheduling policy guarantees correct access to shared resources, such as the bit-mapped display, by interactive processes without the performance penalty of having to explicitly lock and unlock these resources for each access. Eric From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Feb 26 20:02:44 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 21:02:44 -0500 Subject: Age.... In-Reply-To: <200502261642.52371.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <1109448213.4895.0.camel@weka.localdomain> <200502261213.HAA18440@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109448213.4895.0.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050226201904.03ab7e10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Patrick Finnegan may have mentioned these words: >Jules Richardson declared on Saturday 26 February 2005 03:03 pm: > > On Sat, 2005-02-26 at 22:02 +0800, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > > > Born 1966 (age 39). > > > > Most people start at zero ;-) > >??? > >1966 + 39 = 2005. Yes. but 1967 + 37 == 2004. :-) I guess it depends on your definition of zero. ;-) > That's the current year Or is it... ;-) >, unless during my intoxication >last night, I built a time machine and sent myself back 1 year in >time. :) However, that seems somewhat unlikely. Depends on the intoxication. ;-) ... Hrm... 6pack of beer (for myself, at least), 3 bottles of wine (Vintage 2000, but was corky... :-(( )... Me: 1967; got the bug when I was 8. Visited an uncle on vacation [holiday] who was in the US Navy; part of his studies was to build a "computer" --> he finished it just before we arrived. It converted decimal to binary and back, and had a "custom refresh," a.k.a. a knob that changed how often the 7-segment LEDs blinked from 1Hz to 1000Hz. My uncle was rather a bit amazed when I learned (quickly) how to run it. Ever since; it was what I wanted to do. He ended up one of the highest ranking NCO's in the Navy before he retired. Seen him twice since then, once when I was 10-11 -> he gave me actual Navy books on math and 'digital computing theory' which I still have... and the second time around 18 months ago. Odd that the person who 'gave me the bug' and defined such a large aspect of my life was so distant and had an (otherwise) minimal impact on my life. Other than the Atari 2600 my brother and I shared the cost in, my first computer was a Tandy CoCo2 with 16K and the Extended Basic. My brother threw in about a 1/3 of the purchase price for my birthday, and I sprung for the extended basic "Just because." This is despite my father's protestations that "My boy won't own a computer thingy until he learns to do it on paper." [[ At that time, he *still* thought that the 2600 had tape cartridges... ;-) ]] That's why I bought it 2 days after he left town. ;-) My father *ordered* me to give it back (and he was a Marine...) until I turned it on and asked him to show me how to have it do it's homework for him. I eventually sold that system to a friend of mine, and bought a CoCo3; which I still own and am ready to upgrade, thanks to Mark Marlette & Company. ;-) My local high school got rid of the cardreader just before I was able to get into computer class (grade 10) --> they had an IBM Series I when I had computer class at grade 11 where I self-taught myself COBOL... My teacher was *useless* and I was supposed to be his "protege" until I could outprogram him - which took about 8 weeks. I finished the first year of education before the 1/2 year break, and spent the rest of the year self-teaching myself BASIC and Pascal. By my grade 12 year, I was the #2 programmer in the school (including all the teachers.) ... Jump to present: I'm teaching myself 8085 assembly on my Tandy Model 100's; a *big* change from the 6809 assembly I've known for 20 years... [[ An aside... ]] Ethan -- it seems so far you're the closest in age to me as I've seen professed on this list, and I may very well be at this year's Hamfest again this year! If I'm not mistaken, you're no longer on the bottom of the planet, eh? Beers? In Person, no less? ;^> ??? IMHO, NEA, and TMI; Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 26 20:38:45 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:38:45 -0800 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <1f1.3650b655.2f523088@aol.com> References: <1f1.3650b655.2f523088@aol.com> Message-ID: <5bdc5783bc0369f736fdd35b54a6af0e@sbcglobal.net> Born 5/16/48 Computing History: Monroe programmable calculator (H.S. Math/programming class) punch-card input/ impact printer out HP2100 batch system (H.S. field trip to local university Engineering department) Nova?? based Basic Timeshare (H.S. Field Trip to university Business department) Poly88 Kit built owned HP41C (traded for poly, was a better fit for my US navy life) Ohio Scientific board - never finished (left it on the ship on leaving navy - oops) Commodore 64. Macintosh VAX 11/780 at work VMS 3.x same Macintosh upgraded to fat mac IBM PC/AT clone (televideo color 10mb) Ran BBS on above after replacing it with newer PC. Macintosh SE Mac Powerbook 170 Various IBM clones running win31, Win95 and Win98 Current: Macintosh iBook OSx Windows98 Laptop (toshiba) Linux redhat 7.3 laptop (IBM) From rcini at optonline.net Sat Feb 26 21:18:33 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:18:33 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <1109464722.5569.131.camel@abort.crash.com> Message-ID: <002b01c51c7b$06490110$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> OK, me to... Born in 1967. My first computer was...hmmm...a Trash 80 Model I at the local Radio Shack. This was quickly followed by the Commodore PETs in the school's computer lab (which I quickly, er, borrowed the key for and made a copy of). Got to know the janitors and spent lots of evenings there. I then received a Commodore VIC-20 as a gift, which was my main machine until I graduated high school, which would have been 1985. I bought a complete Fat Mac system (astonishingly, I spent somewhere around $5,000 for a complete system. $500 for a 1200-baud modem...eh gads.) I would have stuck with a Mac except no one in B-school used them. My dad brought home a PS/2 Model 50 from work which I used until I built my own. I started collecting machines in about 1992 when I got that very same PET I used at the middle school that I went to and from which I copied the computer lab key. It was the same math teacher running the lab, too, 10 years later. After that, I stuck with micros (mostly 6502-based Commodores and Apples) until I got a PDP11, which I played with for a few years and then donated to the RICM. Here and there, I picked up some Trash 80 stuff (Model 100), some SBCs (KIM and AIM primarily), and a Northstar Horizon, plus some random machines (ZX-81, Atari Portfolio). Lately, I seem to be collecting mostly printed documentation. I have a nearly complete set of BYTE magazines (from the interesting years). From 1975 to 1986 (135 issues), I'm missing only 13 issues (most of 1976). I have a database of about 700 "interesting" article entries that someday I hope to have posted to my Web site. Rich From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 21:49:44 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:49:44 -0500 Subject: Ramping up for Dayton (was Re: Age....) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050226201904.03ab7e10@mail.30below.com> References: <200502261213.HAA18440@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109448213.4895.0.camel@weka.localdomain> <200502261642.52371.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20050226201904.03ab7e10@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 21:02:44 -0500, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Ethan -- it seems so far you're the closest in age to me as I've seen > professed on this list, and I may very well be at this year's Hamfest again > this year! I've noticed quite a few people clustered around 1964-1968 here, but we might be closer than a few of the others. > If I'm not mistaken, you're no longer on the bottom of the > planet, eh? Beers? In Person, no less? ;^> ??? I am indeed back in the Northern Hemisphere... got back about a month ago. Depending on how things shake out, I may be at Dayton this year - not sure about the job situation. If things fall one way, it would be tough to get time off; if they shake out another way, it'd be easy to go. Should know more in a week or two. -ethan From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sat Feb 26 22:08:39 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:08:39 -0500 Subject: (List) Communication Options... In-Reply-To: <42200883.1040308@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: >>> >>> Seriously, what do you reckon would be a "proper forum" >>> for international discussion of classic computing? >>> At the risk of being labeled a "Heretic" or worse. And with an upfront statement, that this in no way reflects on the fabulous work being done by Jay..... Now this *might* lead to something interesting.... A few thoughts (in no particular order) 1) Given the nature of the list, compatability with a _reasonable_ selection of classic computing enviroments needs to be maintained. This should not preclude the usage of _newer_ technologies where appropriate. 2) "Conversations" should be easy to follow, with minimal requirements on the behaviour of the user. For example if there are 100 consecutive messages on a topic (each one in direct response to the immediate previous one), and someone replies to message #68, then it sould be easily identifable as such. 3) Bandwidth (client and host) as well as storage requirements need to be considered. 4) Digest, "Immediate Message" and On-Line Access would all be useful user interfaces. 5) Searchability [by members and services such as Google] is important if this is to be used as a reference site. 6) Organization (above the distinction between ccTalk and ccTech) would be beneficial. Being able to filter messages for a specific computer vendor or other simiular trait would be helpful. 7) Maintenance/Management issues should be kept minimal since there is no paid sponsorship for the list [to the best of my knowledge]. 8) Elimination of redundant information (i.e. duplicated from post to post to post) while still retaining context. That is just a start from my "wish list" view of communications. There are many issues with making any changes to the method of communication that would need to be addressed, and members feelings would be among the top. <<<< now to go down and look for the C User Journal CD I promised a list member.... From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sat Feb 26 22:12:52 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:12:52 -0500 Subject: C Users Journal archives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> >>> I have a CD of >>> I am going crazy trying to find >>> the Journal somewhere.... >>> the text of an article in >>> I will try to look >>> the October 1992 issue of >>> for it tomorrow >>> "The C Users Journal" ... >>> Oops...the CD I was thinking for the the "C Users' Group Library".... From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Feb 26 22:12:00 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:12:00 -0600 Subject: AIX and AMIX questions Message-ID: <42214890.9060108@mdrconsult.com> What a mix, right? First the AIX stuff. v2.2.1, definitely on-topic. My RT has been laid up with a failing IDE disk for a while. The E70s that it came with were serious junk, and near death. I now have a couple of Maxtor ESDI disks to play with, and I also found a 1.2GB Medalist that should work in it with the IDE/floppy controller that's presently in it. For power/BTU reasons I'll go with IDE if possible. The problem is that the AIX floppy images are no longer on the dementia.org FTP site, and I've stupidly lost my archive of them. Does anybody happen to have them stashed away? Floppy images are nice, or I have the sort-of-SCSI 1/4" tape streamer and adapter too. For whatever it's worth, my company is an AIX software and services partner. That means I can legally have any version of AIX needed to do or to properly research my work. :) While I'm at it, does anybody have an RT mouse they don't want, or a Matrox graphics adapter? On to Amiga UNIX. The little information I can find about installation (see rant below) says that the original v2.x requires a Commodore 3070 tape drive, which is an Archive Viper-150 in an external enclosure. I don't have an Archive drive, but I do have an IBM-firmwared Tandberg TDC 3600 an a Sun-firmwared TDC 4220, both of which are QIC-150 compatible. The first question is whether AMIX looks for Commodore firmware on the tape drive, or will any 150MB quarter-inch drive work? The second question is whether install media for AMIX v1.x exists in downloadable form? Somebody mentioned "more appropriate fora for discussion" the other day. Well, the only active AMIX forum seems to be a freakin' MSN Group. Since I don't have and don't EVER want an MSN .Net Passport, I don't get to play there. Do they think all the world is already owned by MSN? Doc From wacarder at usit.net Sat Feb 26 23:59:25 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:59:25 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <001401c51be6$d6e30f40$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: > It could be interesting to know the age"spread" of thist list > contributors, > and how long we've had the computer virus under our skin. I'll be 47 in a couple months. I never saw a computer until I went to college in 1976 and met a PDP-11/40 running RSTS/E. I lived on the computer for the next 3 years until it interfered with my grades and I had to spend time on classes instead. I got a programming job in 1981 in RPG on an IBM S/34 immediately after college and have been doing software development ever since, on IBM mainframes (COBOL, CICS, Assembler, ADS/O, etc), PCs (Basic, C, MASM, OS/2 PM, Visual Basic, IIS based web development), primarily Microsoft platforms, taking occasional breaks from programming to dabble in the management side of things and fly around the country doing requirements studies, marketing, training, etc. I always tire of corporate management and politics after a few years and get back into the programming side of things until they twist my arm and talk me back into management stuff again. I've been in this cycle of management/ technical flip/flop since about 1986. For the past 20 years I've been involved in development of software for the insurance industry. Ashley From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Sun Feb 27 01:39:34 2005 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 21:39:34 -1000 Subject: Age spread stuff. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1109489974.4019.216111859@webmail.messagingengine.com> I myself am 23 (I'm probably one of the youngest members here), born 1981. I guess you could say that I'm a second generation classic computer user. Anyhow, I cut my teeth on an Osborne 1 that my dad owned (that he hooked up on old Amdek B&W monochrome monitor to), as well as the Apple //e & //e platinums at primary/elementary school. After that it was primarily PCs from there on (what can I say, I was the generation that got corrupted at an early age!). It remained that way until 1998 when I was given a Commodore 64C (which I still have and has been heavily expanded since then), and now, well, have a look at my collection now! ;) David M. Vohs Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64, 1802, 1541, Indus GT, FDD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Original Apple Macintosh, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer III. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. "Butterfly": Tandy 200, PDD-2. "Shapeshifter": Epson QX-10, Comrex HDD, Titan graphics/MS-DOS board. "Scout": Otrona Attache. (prospective) "Pioneer": Apple LISA II. "TMA-1": Atari Portfolio, Memory Expander + "Centaur": Commodore Amiga 2000. "Neon": Zenith Minisport. From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sun Feb 27 01:45:16 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:45:16 +0100 Subject: Age References: <200502262147.NAA18532@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <001f01c51ca0$47c512d0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Cameron Kaiser" Subject: Re: Age > 28. Well, surely one of the youngest. This reminds me of something. In my spare time, I'm a member of the danish National Guard / Territoral Army / Home Guard or whatever the term is locally. When you turn 60, you are in principle moved to the Senior group, who is in charge of meetings "logistics" (coffee, cookies, dishwasher, etc.) and the flag pole in front of the building. Now that I turn 60 next time, I was approached by the boss of the senior group, who said "Well, now that you turn 60, we can offer you a place in our juvenile / under-age department." "Huh ??", "Yes, the rest of us is over 70, so it must be appropriate that your start as an apprentice " Nico From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sun Feb 27 01:47:29 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:47:29 +0100 Subject: origins of IBM 3740 diskette format References: <20050224194755.7264.h016.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net><003201c51b01$0332b820$2101a8c0@finans> <20050226130242.H31529@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <002e01c51ca0$96d47be0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Fred Cisin" Subject: Re: origins of IBM 3740 diskette format > Yes, but,... > > In FORTRAN, columns 73 - 80 are reserved for housekeeping, such as > resequencing dropped decks. > THerefore, the information content in FORTRAN could be said to be 72 bytes > per card, NOT 80. > That was the same for IBM (DOS) Assembler, Cobol (73-80) and RPG-II (column 1-5 IIRC). Nico From vcf at siconic.com Sun Feb 27 02:33:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:33:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jef Raskin Message-ID: Sorry to have to break this news. I just learned this tonight. I have no other details. ;( ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Dear Friends, Jef died this evening, surrounded by friends and family, with some favorite music playing. While I am overcome by a profound sense of sadness and am not looking forward the the days, weeks and years ahead without him, I am also relieved that he did not suffer for a long time and that he is at peace and no longer in pain. There will be a memorial service, time and date to be determined. Much love- Linda -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Feb 27 02:42:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:42:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Top Posting (from a digest subscribers P.O.V.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Feb 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > There is a certain etiquette in place when talking on the telephone, right? > > > Most of us say "Hello" at the beginning, "ByeBye" and the end, and engage > > > > Do we? I answer with, "What the hell do you want?", or if I'm feeling > > nice, "This had better be good." However, I always end with, "Don't ever > > call here again, you freak!" > > Please remind me not to bother calling you when I find a pile of Apple > 1's 'Free to a good home' .... It'll never happen. Click....bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Feb 27 03:49:50 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:49:50 +0000 Subject: Age, was Re: IBM mainframe goes for 99 cents In-Reply-To: <001401c51be6$d6e30f40$2101a8c0@finans> References: <001401c51be6$d6e30f40$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <422197BE.8030900@gjcp.net> Nico de Jong wrote: > It could be interesting to know the age"spread" of thist list contributors, > and how long we've had the computer virus under our skin. I'm 31, born in 1973, and I've been into electronics since I was about 6 or 7, and computers not long after. First computer was a ZX81, then a 48k Spectrum, then a string of relatively unusual kit bought by my Dad's boss for various datalogging projects and subsequently discarded. AIM65, Epson HX-20, stuff like that. Among one pile of bits was a manual for a Sinclair MK14 - attempted to write an emulator on the Speccy in machine code, but didn't get very far. Subsequently wrote one in Turbo Pascal on an Amstrad PCW8256 - very slow, but it worked! Currently I've got various PCs and Macs, an Altos 386, IBM Workpad Z50 (not strictly speaking a classic but unusual enough to be nearly on-topic), various Psions, a Sanyo MBC-4050 (the one mentioned on this list, picked up from a guy literally 2 minutes up the road from me!), oh - and the PDP11 that has been the source of so many of my postings recently! Gordon. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Feb 27 03:52:27 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 04:52:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Age, was Re: IBM mainframe goes for 99 cents In-Reply-To: <1109448213.4895.0.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200502261213.HAA18440@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109448213.4895.0.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200502270954.EAA09251@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Born 1966 (age 39). > Most people start at zero ;-) ...yeah, and? Anyone born 1966-01-01 through 1966-02-25 (and part/all of 02-26 and 02-27, depending on timezone) is now born 1966 and age 39. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Feb 27 03:14:53 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:14:53 +0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:39:00 EST." Message-ID: <200502270914.JAA10034@citadel.metropolis.local> > Nico de Jong wrote: > > It could be interesting to know the age"spread" of thist list > > contributors, and how long we've had the computer virus under > > our skin. Ok, I'll play too. Born 1943. Built digital circuitry from valves/tubes while at school, got involved in radio stuff, including building a vhf/fm radio using some digital circuitry. First met computers for real in 1975 with an ICL. Built my first homebrew 8080 in 1976(?), followed by SC/MP machines. Bought TRS-80 in 78 - still got it - followed by various CP/M machines and IBM clones, but used mostly unix/linux and Macs since. The PDP Micro-11/73 upstairs is the only "vintage" machine here atm, but I'm looking for something new/old... (There are various home computers, mostly Sinclair, including my ZX-81 Forth machine, dotted around, but they don't really count :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Feb 27 05:53:00 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:53:00 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Jef Raskin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1194.192.168.0.3.1109505180.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > > Sorry to have to break this news. I just learned this tonight. I have no > other details. > Aw crap, that's bad ;(( I didn't even know he was unwell. Jef was one of the Very Short List of people without whom I probably wouldn't be here now typing this. Hopefully his website will have a space where us great unwashed can leave tributes? -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Feb 27 07:15:18 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:15:18 -0500 Subject: Age Message-ID: <20050227131517.REGJ18259.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> > It could be interesting to know the age"spread" of this list contributors, > and how long we've had the computer virus under our skin. 1960; Been keenly interested in electronic and technical things for as far back as I can recall ... As a child I spent all my time "building things", but didn't really get exposed to computers until the mid-70s when I fell in love with an IBM 370 (See below)... First computer of my own was a homebuilt 8080, followed closely by an Altair 8800 (which I still have). Long and highly varied list of machines follow, including several more homebuilts. Never an "appliance operator", I always used the machines as a creative outlet. Always been interested in low-level and systems type aspects, designed my own interfaces, wrote my own operating systems and development tools - still use mostly my own software, although I have a couple systems configured with winblows for "when I really have to". Pretty much the same story professionally, worked for various high-tech companies, got caught up in it for a while - did a few "salvage jobs" where I was came in to "rescue" a project after "the team" had spent all the money and had little to show for it, eventually became a director at one of the major telecom players ... at which point I realized I was rapidly leaving the relm of "hands on", so I stepped off the ladder. Turned my hobby into a business, and I've been hawking my embedded systems software development tools and contract services for the past 15+ years... (and being much happier for it). Regards, Dave ---- (below) ---- For those who didn't experience IBM mainframes - IBM was not always just another player in the "me to" Wintel market - in the 70's, they were one of the major forces in the computing industry, and to our university computer center which was built around the IBM mainframe, at times they seemed like denizens of Mount Olympus. Here are a couple of my "favorite IBM moments" from that era: ---- At the University of New Brunswick, we had mostly serial TTY terminals, however at one point they brought in five IBM 3270s which were set up at one end of the user access area. The idea of being able to "instantly" write an entire screen page was really cool, and in short order I wrote a "tank game" where multiple people could enter a virtual maze and shoot at one another, which pretty much realtime updates of the visible maze and other players. It was very popular, but due to a bug somewhere in the system, it had the undesired effect of crashing the entire mainframe. (They had a "traffic light" in the access room, which would show Green when the system was up and running, Red when it was down, and Yellow if it was scheduled to be taken down shortly. Invariably, a short while after a couple of people started up my game, all the TTYs in the area would stop responding and shortly after that the light would switch to red). My "favorite moment" came one Sunday morning, when the computing center announced that the system would be unavailable for the day (a very rare occurance) - I came in to see what they were up to, and found the access room empty except for 5 guys from IBM, complete with suits, ties and briefcases - sitting at the 3270 cluster. Four of them were playing my game (and making some favorable comments), while the fifth guy was madly running diagnostics, scrolling through dumps and generally trying to figure out what going wrong - they did find it, and after that my game no longer crashed the system (although it still cost a small fortune in processor time to play it!). ---- Fairly early in my career, I worked on developemnt software for a 6809 based test system at Mitel - this had a CPU/RAM card, and various interface cards. One of the hardware engineers had designed a floppy disk controller for it, however software support consisted of a monitor program with commands to read and write tracks/memory. On my own time, I wrote a decent multitasking operating system and disk file system for it, and when I demonstrated it, the company formed a new devision to develop this "advanced test system" - I was in charge of the operating system, languages and development software ... We ended up selling quite a few of these to IBM, and having been launched on my path by my experiences with IBM MVS, I took great pleasure in the thought that they had bought and used *my* operating system (yeah, I know - to them it was just a piece of test equipment... but at the time it was a "favorite moment"). -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From rmeenaks at olf.com Sun Feb 27 07:16:27 2005 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:16:27 -0500 Subject: Age Message-ID: <0ICK008C7NJBKP@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Well, I couldn't resist. I am 33 years old (born 1970) and got my first taste of computers when we bought a TI99 4/A in the early 80's. I spent hours and hours typing in the games in Compute! during those golden ages. We started using a TRS80 during my junior high school and later an Apple / IBMPCin high school. I got so fasinated with computers that I started my Comp Sci degree for both my masters and bachelors. I worked more in the "wall street" type firms designing various trading systems for different markets (FX, international banking, government bond trading, and now Power/Energy market trading). Currently I design trading systems for the Energy Markets (specifically for Power..). I got exposed to transputers during my undergraduate days and have been hooked into it ever since.... Cheers, Ram From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Feb 27 06:34:44 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 07:34:44 -0500 Subject: Why are transistors called "Q"? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050225231940.0bb272d8@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050227073444.00798100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:20 AM 2/27/05 +0000, Tony wrote: >> >> "T" was taken (Transformer). That was also a problem when tubes began being= >> =20 >> used. I think they use X for tubes, don't they? > >Normally 'V' Certainly in UK manuals -- we call them 'valves', but HP and >Tekky also use 'V'. > V is the standard designation for tubes in the US. It has been since at least WW II. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Feb 27 07:22:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:22:47 -0500 Subject: More New Toys! In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050225222536.024980a0@mail.earthlink.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050225220952.009a6ba0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200502260107.RAA16243@clulw009.amd.com> <200502260107.RAA16243@clulw009.amd.com> <3.0.6.32.20050225220952.009a6ba0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050227082247.0093a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:35 PM 2/25/05 -0500, you wrote: >basically to get the constant voltage output even when the AC supply goes >from 90 to 120. A normal transformer will "follow" the line voltage. The >power supply board uses schottky diodes and the transformer puts out just >enough voltage to be regulated to five volts with minimal power loss (there >are a couple of other secondary windings for + and - 12 for RS232). With a >normal transformer, the power supply design would have to been different to >deal with the higher wattage that it would have had to dissipate. I understand all that but AC power is cheap and so is a fan to dissapate the excess heat. It's surprising to see a company spent money for features like this unless there is a very real requirement for them. Even HP doesn't go to this length with their power supplies. The >transformer was custom wound for AMC. And expensive I'll bet! > >By the way, the EM189 was a 6809 emulator... Oops. I guess it was late and I was tired. I had it setting right in front of me and I still got it wrong. I should have said EM-180B. I'd sure like to find a pod for it but it doesn't look likely. BTW I'm assuming that the transformers for the various models all put out the same voltage. Is that true? Joe > > >the resonant tran >At 10:09 PM 02/25/2005, you wrote: >> Thanks for the info Steve. I have a EM-189 (Z-80) that's missing the pod >>so I guess I can rob the x-former out of it. >> >> I'm curious, why did they use a resonant transformer? >> >> Joe > > > From unibus at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 07:54:33 2005 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 00:54:33 +1100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 18, Issue 97 In-Reply-To: <200502261104.j1QB3Ued022743@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200502261104.j1QB3Ued022743@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > That's fine, because if you play your cards right you'll most likely end > > up out-living most of us here and then you can piss on all our graves. > > > It could be interesting to know the age"spread" of thist list contributors, > and how long we've had the computer virus under our skin. > I myself turn 60 next time, and have been in this business sinc 1967 or so, > where I got a Cobol course as an "education by mail" (dont know the correct > english term for that one > > Nico ~52. Started as a radio apprentice in 1969 and the course included digital (tube) logic, etc. ~1976 Paid for a short course in EduBasic on a PDP8, then opened a commercial account at Control Data to get access to processor time (Kronos and Scope). In those days you were taken into the store room and you walked out with whatever manual took your fancy. Best investment I ever made, didn't cost to open the account, just paid for usage. Played with BASIC, COBOL, FORTRAN, Athena, etc. Won't bore you with the rest Regards, Garry From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Feb 27 08:02:43 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:02:43 -0500 Subject: IBM mainframe goes for 99 cents In-Reply-To: References: <200502261122.LAA31296@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <20050227090243.2de3bb50.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:39:28 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Even better is when you get so well known locally that people bring > > stuff you! Someone gave brought me a big box of stuff pulled out of > > an old > > My father came home one day (before he retired) and said 'Is a DEC > PRO350 of any interest'. Of course I replied in the affirmative to > which he said 'OK, there's one in the back of the car for you'. I then > received a _loaded_ PRO 350 (it even has an ethernet card in it...), a > VR241 monitor, keyboard and the proper desk for it with the motorised > column for the monitor..... > My dad brought home an IBM 5100 from work for the weekend a couple of times in about 1975 when I was in High School. It was a pretty neat machine. Didn't get to keep it, though. Then he bought a TRS-80 Model 1, which I did eventually get to keep, when he replaced it with one of the first IBM PCs. Grew up around old IBM stuff because Dad started work with IBM in computers back in 1956. I sure wish I had grabbed all the old books and material he had before they moved in the mid 80's and trashed most of it (OUCH!). Attended Brown Institute in Minneapolis 1982-84 when they still taught the 'computer electives' on 6800 based systems. Worked for years in the Medical Device industry, lastly slinging embedded code for the microcontrollers in various devices. Slowly accumulating a 'Superfund Site' of all sorts of electronics and computer gear (we have land. more outbuldings are required!) Right now trying to get a 1970 Chevy C-10 pickup running well enough to be able to haul the BIG stuff back from the auctions. First 'computer' was a TI SR-56 programmable calculator (all I could afford in 1977) Before then was one of the timesharing nerds in High School who stayed after class to use all the %&$@#$% expensive thermal paper ("ten cents a foot!" the math teacher used to yell at us) in the Silent 700 Terminals slinging BASIC on the MERITS timesharing system. (the teletypes were usually more available, but were upper-case only and slower) Was probably the last person to turn in the FOCAL language assignments for the 'Introduction to Computer Programming' course at Hamline University in St. Paul. (to do so, I had to power up and bootstrap the PDP-8 in the Science Building- most people just turned in the FORTRAN assignments (run on the batch terminal in the library) for the course) Probably one of the last people alive to use the PDP-8 in a commercial production setting (they were still being used 1981-84 in a 'COM' microfilm shop in Minneapolis that I worked at) From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Feb 27 08:16:26 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:16:26 -0500 Subject: IBM mainframe goes for 99 cents In-Reply-To: <20050227090243.2de3bb50.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: >>> >>> Probably one of the last people alive to use the PDP-8 in a >>> commercial production setting.... I was still supporting (and developing new code for) PDP-8' based Test equipment for an electronics firm until the very late 1980's ['88 or '89]. Starting in '85 we had begun migration to one of 3 alternatives: 1) PDP-11 Based 2) PC Based 3) Intersil (6120?) Clone machines [protected other hardware investments that were too difficult/expensive to re-engineer to the other platforms. The last "true" PDP-8 came off the line just before 1990 rolled around, but the Intersil (actually it was a PCM-12 model!) machines were still in some use when I left the firm in 1992. Of course there are STILL PDP-8's in "commercial" use, but they seem to finally be running down. From ICS at Core.com Sun Feb 27 08:18:47 2005 From: ICS at Core.com (George & Oksana Wiegand) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:18:47 -0500 Subject: DG Nova 4/x software hacking References: <20050226020828.R2353@localhost> <20050226161950.F622@localhost> Message-ID: <002f01c51cd7$570726c0$212fc4d8@icsdevelopment> You have to be careful if you want to delete a LINK, you must use the UNLINK command otherwise the syetem will delete the target rather than the link itself. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 7:33 PM Subject: Re: DG Nova 4/x software hacking > Well I seem to be heading towards a usable computer. Sat down with > the manual and re-learned nspeed. First task was to write a script > to create links in the working directory to all the utilities on > DP0. Used the BUILD command (builds 'command tail file lists' in > unixese), and wrote an iterative macro to hash it up. > > > (There's no "path" to find executables (.SV); it must be in the > current directory or directory specified. Directories in RDOS > aren't heirarchical like they are in unix-derived paradigms; > they're like little partitions, you more or less "mount" them with > the DIR command (mounts the directory and makes it default > directory) or INIT them ("mounts" them so you can copy to them, > for instance.) You specify how many directories you can have > mounted at the same time at SYSGEN time.) > > > Build makes: > > ASM.SV,MAC.SV,FDUMP.SV,FOO.SV,BAR.SV, [and so on] > > I needed: > > LINK ASM.SV DP0:ASM.SV > LINK MAC.SV DP0:MAC.SV > ... > > The nspeed command is: > > 32<1BTABSAJ#C > $ $BS0ILINK ^BA DP0:^BA > $-1LT1L> > > > Here's one of those maddening things that I'll figure out someday, > and has some dubious reason. The command: > > S > $-1D > > (Search for a CR) > S > $ > (Delete 1 char before pointer) > -1D > > Works fine maually. It doesn't work when iteration < and > is used! > That's why I change all occurrences of CR to space in buffer A: > #C > $ $ > That works. > > ^BA > > means 'insert the contents of buffer A' > > -1LT1L > > minus one line; type out line; plus one line, so it > prints the results of edits as it goes. > > The leading 32< ... > > > Means 'iterate 32 times' because I didn't feel like coming > up with a test for 'end of buffer'. Eh. > > > > Now to write a HELLO WORLD program! > > From rcini at optonline.net Sun Feb 27 08:16:43 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:16:43 -0500 Subject: Jef Raskin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c51cd6$f767c800$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> I didn't realize that he was ill. I just finished reading Revolution in the Valley. Although he is sometimes treated as a sideshow in the history of the Macintosh, I believe that he's one of Classic Computing's Great Thinkers. My wishes and prayers go out to his family. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 3:34 AM To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: Jef Raskin Sorry to have to break this news. I just learned this tonight. I have no other details. ;( ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Dear Friends, Jef died this evening, surrounded by friends and family, with some favorite music playing. While I am overcome by a profound sense of sadness and am not looking forward the the days, weeks and years ahead without him, I am also relieved that he did not suffer for a long time and that he is at peace and no longer in pain. There will be a memorial service, time and date to be determined. Much love- Linda -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at ttp://marketplace.vintage.org ] From list at saracom.com Sun Feb 27 08:25:58 2005 From: list at saracom.com (Max) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:25:58 -0500 Subject: FTP Server/Client for RSX? Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20050227092402.01c88ab0@mail.saracom.com> Hello, I received this request for help and was wondering if any one could offer any suggestions. I am not too familar with RSX. Max From: "Dr.M.S.Moni" Dear Sir, I am using an old pdp/11/73 (LSI 11/73) without network/lan/ card. The OS is RSX11M. Only an 8" floppy drive is avilable. I recently bought a DEQNA card withot any installation instructions. I do not have any file transfer program in my PDP. I tried to use the serial port to communicate to a PC without any sucess. I would like to install the DEQNA and use some FTP or Kermit software to transfer data from the PDP hard disk to a PC. How do I do it and where can I get the necesary software? Is it freely available or on payment? Since I am not an expert in computers I may need detailed instructions. Can you please help me? I shall be much obliged. -Dr.M.S.Moni From at258 at osfn.org Sun Feb 27 08:35:50 2005 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:35:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <200502270954.EAA09251@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: I'm 60, 61 next week. I was not really very fond of computers, and still have a very nasty antagonism for sloppy programme planning. (Some idiots not only do not know what material to ask for, they don't know what to do with it after they get it). As a result, I was late to join the computer scene. My first machine was a C-128D, although I dreamed about a Memotech. I don't programme or have very much interst in electronics. My degrees are in English. Since I now qualify for free tuition, I have gone back and am planning to get degrees in Film Studies. So, my orientation is entirely towards The Adolescence of P1 and Desk Set rather than RT-11 or hardware. Oddly, though, I have become very interested in the history of these old machines, especially Wang. I don not think people really appreciate the wonderful things that computers have been able to do for the art of writing. M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Feb 27 08:44:25 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:44:25 -0500 Subject: Top-posting shenanigans In-Reply-To: References: <0502252116.AA02384@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20050227094425.72379994.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:00:13 -0800 (PST) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > Tom Jennings wrote: > > > > > Pine > > > Is > > > Not > > > Elm > > > > What the hell is all this talk about pine and elm? I only use > > Mail(1)! > > Wimp! On days when I'm sick I communicate directly with the SMTP > port. Otherwise, I normally whistle bits down the ether!! This > message took me 3 hours to submit. > Back when I was a kid and couldn't afford a real computer, sometimes I would call the dialup number to the timesharing system (1) and whistle into it. If you whistled the right way, you could get the other end warbling and it wouldn't hang up until you ran out of breath from whistling. (1) we didn't have any _real_ computers at school, either, just several ASR33's, a CRT Terminal, a Silent 700, and 'acoustic couplers' to connect through. -Scott From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Feb 27 08:51:10 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:51:10 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Merle K. Peirce Wrote: >>> So, my orientation is entirely towards The Adolescence of P1... A Great Book! Now "OolKay Itay1" ;) From melamy at earthlink.net Sun Feb 27 08:55:18 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:55:18 -0500 Subject: More New Toys! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050227082247.0093a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050225220952.009a6ba0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200502260107.RAA16243@clulw009.amd.com> <200502260107.RAA16243@clulw009.amd.com> <3.0.6.32.20050225220952.009a6ba0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050227082247.0093a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050227094705.03f27ce0@mail.earthlink.net> first, you can't consider an under the covers part a feature... there are plenty of small companies out there doing transformer winding so cost wasn't that much more than a standard transformer. Keep in mind that this product was developed back in the late 70s/early 80s. It was before small switching supplies and you couldn't find a standard transformer with three secondary taps anyway. There was room for one transformer and adding a fan would have made noise. In the long run, you would have had to dissipate more power, require larger parts for the power supply section along with heatsinks, require a larger cabinet, and added a fan that made noise. The box retailed for around $4K and these were sold in the hundreds. If it was a higher quantity product, then cost reduction would have been more important. secondly, all the EM series used the same transformer for 110V 60Hz. best regards, Steve At 08:22 AM 02/27/2005, Joe R. wrote: >At 10:35 PM 2/25/05 -0500, you wrote: > >basically to get the constant voltage output even when the AC supply goes > >from 90 to 120. A normal transformer will "follow" the line voltage. The > >power supply board uses schottky diodes and the transformer puts out just > >enough voltage to be regulated to five volts with minimal power loss (there > >are a couple of other secondary windings for + and - 12 for RS232). With a > >normal transformer, the power supply design would have to been different to > >deal with the higher wattage that it would have had to dissipate. > > I understand all that but AC power is cheap and so is a fan to dissapate >the excess heat. It's surprising to see a company spent money for features >like this unless there is a very real requirement for them. Even HP doesn't >go to this length with their power supplies. > >The > >transformer was custom wound for AMC. > > And expensive I'll bet! > > > > >By the way, the EM189 was a 6809 emulator... > > Oops. I guess it was late and I was tired. I had it setting right in >front of me and I still got it wrong. I should have said EM-180B. I'd sure >like to find a pod for it but it doesn't look likely. BTW I'm assuming >that the transformers for the various models all put out the same voltage. >Is that true? > > Joe From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Feb 27 09:15:27 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:15:27 -0500 Subject: Age References: <002b01c51c7b$06490110$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <000c01c51cdf$2c0e3320$0100a8c0@screamer> I'm 42, born in 1962. I was facinated by computers while still in grade school. My first hands-on experiance was seeing an 'open house' demonstration of a Hughes HM 4118 (18-bit) core memory machine running a combat air traffic control system (with massive radar and vector data display tubes) at an Air National Guard base where my Uncle worked. My first 'commercial' personal computer was an Elf II (now Jack Rubin's) back in 1978, and I also home-brewed several 1802 and 8080 based projects. While in high school I had use of the PDP-8E running a multi-user BASIC interpreter with four ASR-33's. After graduating in 1980 I enlisted and was trained on the very same Hughes HM-4118 system I'd seen as a child. After my service I worked on PDP-11's at Applicon, then Lisp Machines at LMI and the MIT AI lab. I began to collect and restore old computers back in 1984. While working for TMI (helping to build connection machines) I found a Hewlett Packard 2114A system with all its cables and peripherals as well as a box of documentation for the system. After a bit of reading I got brave enough to plug it in and the machine still ran very well. At that point I was hooked on HP hardware, and I now have two 2114's, two 2116's, a 2115, and a large pile of 2113's, including two complete racked systems with many peripherals (perhaps 7 working 2113's and an equal number of parts machines). My HP collection also grew to include an HP-01, and several vector graphics generators. I even went so far as to build my own ATA disk controller and developed a threaded interpreter designed for the restoration of vintage HP 1000 series CPU's. The most uncommon machine in my collection is an 'alpha' Imlac PDS-1, which combines the blinking lights and vector graphics into one very unusual and special machine. I also have a number of Apollo workstations (running SR7. something), but I'm unloading these machines to make room for all the HP's. (does anyone have an Apollo DN660 itch they need to scratch?) My ultimate 'dream' collectable machine, CDC6600. Dual vector based CRT's on the console make up for a major lack of blinking lights, IMO. I'd also love to find a Raython 704, perhaps a more practical 'dream' machine. Of course a Hughes HM 4118 would be very welcome as well... Bob Shannon From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 27 10:23:37 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:23:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <001f01c51ca0$47c512d0$2101a8c0@finans> from Nico de Jong at "Feb 27, 5 08:45:16 am" Message-ID: <200502271623.IAA15826@floodgap.com> > > 28. > > Well, surely one of the youngest. On the younger end, but I thought I saw a few early 20s and an 18. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Mistakes are often the stepping stones to catastrophic failure. ------------ From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Feb 27 10:48:36 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:48:36 -0600 Subject: server maintenance Message-ID: <003901c51cec$2e5f1510$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Got all the websites moved. If any of you have trouble with your website on the classiccmp server please email me directly. Now I'm working on the last bit... going through the archives and rebuilding them. A bit more of a pain than I'd normally think, because the mailman archive rebuild program doesn't handle large files which of course the mbox files are. So I'm having to break them up by date ranges and import individually. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of programs to manipulate and break up mbox files, so I'm writing ditty's to do it. Once I'm done, the archives should be back up, and searchable with HtDig!!! Jay West From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Feb 27 10:44:38 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:44:38 -0600 Subject: Top Posting (from a digest subscribers P.O.V.) In-Reply-To: <32983.64.169.63.74.1109407857.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050225194101.02245530@popmail.ucsd.edu> <32983.64.169.63.74.1109407857.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050227104240.03d52230@mail> At 02:50 AM 2/26/2005, Eric Smith wrote: >Sellam wrote about telephone etiquette: >> I answer with, "What the hell do you want?", > >I used to have a line that was only for modem use. If I noticed it >ringing, I'd answer with either that, or "Wrong number, may I help you?" >Either way, the telemarketers were startled. Which reminds me of how my 80s modem-only line was listed in the phone book: as "Barn". (I was in the city at the time.) The phone company wouldn't let me call it "modem". I recall they had a list of approved descriptions for a line, and "modem" wasn't on it. So I picked "barn" instead. - John From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Feb 27 11:28:33 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:28:33 -0500 Subject: Age, was Re: IBM mainframe goes for 99 cents In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:33:22 PST." Message-ID: <200502271728.j1RHSXA9029896@mwave.heeltoe.com> "O. Sharp" wrote: > >Quoth Brad Parker: > >> Anyone have any idea when the first 8/I's got shipped? > >Not specifically, but I suspect a good guess would be 1968. If I remember Ah thanks. In '68 I was living in the bay area blissfully ignorant of computers, thinking they were far too complex for my little mind :-) reminds me of a quote from someone about riding their '68 BSA Thunderbolt over the bay bridge, wind in their hair, thinking the world was about to go through some radical changes... :-) (I once had a '70 BSA thunderbolt. best bike I ever owned. I swear it would climb 10' walls if asked nicely) am I off topic yet? :-) -brad From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Sun Feb 27 11:39:19 2005 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 18:39:19 +0100 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <000c01c51cdf$2c0e3320$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <002b01c51c7b$06490110$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <000c01c51cdf$2c0e3320$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <422205C7.7000606@gmx.net> I'm 41, born 1963-06-21, and to make a short story long: I allways was interested in technical gear, so at the age of 8 or 9 when my father used an IBM Mag Card Selectric to acces an IBM Mainframe I first heard of computers. Took one or two years till I saw the first computer in my life (my father bought a pdp8/m in 1974). The years went by and after using programmable calculators Commodore PR100 and TI-59 my father allowed me to put hands on the pdp8 in 1979. Thereafter came some other machines - dds2 cs (TI9900), dg eclipse, Commodore 4008, 8032, zx81, VAX 11/750, 780, the unavoidable PCs, Daisy, some 68K Unix Machines (force, eltek,..), Sun sparcs, HP 3000, Siemens RM, Sun Ultra Sparc, Fujitsu-Siemens PrimePower. I learned programming on the pdp8 (FOCAL, PAL8, BASIC9), studied computer science (FORTRAN IV, Pascal, 8085) wrote MS-DOS drivers in x86 and C (modified Borland C runtime system to do that) did hardware development (active ISDN adapter for PCs - tina ds from Stollmann) ported the Unix System VR3.2 STREAMS evironment to DR FlexOS, wrote STREAMS drivers for redundant connections over OSI layers, ported OSI layers 3 and 4 from/to Sinix (Reliant Unix), HP-UX, Solaris, SCO-Unix, Interactive Unix, Linux. And now doing Unix (mostly Solaris) administration since 1999. Collection: pdp8/m TI-59, dds2-cs, (not vintage) Ultra Sparcs (E250, E450, E3500). New to come (April) Two fully loaded pdp8/e racks ;-)) Greetings Gerold From cblackburn36 at softhome.net Sun Feb 27 11:43:27 2005 From: cblackburn36 at softhome.net (Chris Blackburn) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:43:27 +0000 Subject: Age, was Re: IBM mainframe goes for 99 cents In-Reply-To: <001401c51be6$d6e30f40$2101a8c0@finans> References: <001401c51be6$d6e30f40$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <95085c018071e3442269a6a5d76b252c@softhome.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 26 Feb 2005, at 09:37, Nico de Jong wrote: > It could be interesting to know the age"spread" of thist list > contributors, I am a young 'un born in 1986. I have always been interested in computers right from playing my dads PC1640 and Commodore 64 right the way up to (trying to) build a SPARC based POV-Ray cluster. I am a UNIX nerd at heart and hate anything with a Micro$oft logo on it. I have volunteered at the Bletchley Park computer museum since June 2003 and I have loved every minute of it and every week I learn something new :). - - -- Chris Blackburn E-Mail: cblackburn36NOSPAM at softhome.net E-Mail: cblackburn36 at NOSPAMgmail.com PGP Public Key: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C2AF31929 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFCIgZwxsNEmi5WofsRAl4jAKCTr1dRXXq+X90uGQevFesRO9xD5wCfX7l8 9LRdQ+UO6usSo6aFviDyJng= =oTnw - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- - -- Chris Blackburn E-Mail: cblackburn36NOSPAM at softhome.net E-Mail: cblackburn36 at NOSPAMgmail.com PGP Public Key: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C2AF31929 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFCIga/xsNEmi5WofsRApcCAKDcQ3djp2plXMAqRAc2iJUItvNmNgCgxdI4 UdOTMFB8HeVVNPrUcRHISmM= =BWKd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Feb 27 12:10:56 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:10:56 -0500 Subject: [OT]Homebrew PCB fabrication References: <4218E180.4030500@gjcp.net> <42192407.9080609@ecubics.com> <42192793.7020106@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050226210454.GD20608@jdboyd.zill.net> Message-ID: <16930.3376.562000.51761@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >> The cheap double side PCB will cost you $33 each >> (http://www.33each.com) for 3 boards, That's pretty high. Best I've seen so far is $65 for 5 boards. paul From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Feb 27 12:13:13 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:13:13 -0600 Subject: server maintenance In-Reply-To: <003901c51cec$2e5f1510$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <003901c51cec$2e5f1510$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42220DB9.5080103@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > Got all the websites moved. If any of you have trouble with your website > on the classiccmp server please email me directly. > > Now I'm working on the last bit... going through the archives and > rebuilding them. A bit more of a pain than I'd normally think, because > the mailman archive rebuild program doesn't handle large files which of > course the mbox files are. So I'm having to break them up by date ranges > and import individually. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of > programs to manipulate and break up mbox files, so I'm writing ditty's > to do it. Jay, we've recently converted some clients' mailservers from mbox to maildir operation. I used a Perl script named mb2md.pl to migrate all the client accounts' mail archives. If having each spool as a directory and post as a separate file in the directory will help, grab mb2md. It's very well-documented and as far as I can tell it's completely reliable. It's also not horribly slow, given the task it has. Doc From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Feb 27 12:17:35 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:17:35 -0500 Subject: lk201 question References: <200502261729.56250.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <16930.3775.625000.696169@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Mike" == Mike writes: Mike> How many variations of LK201 were produced? Are they Mike> interchangeable? Lots, but they are all interchangeable. The differences are in the keycap labels. A given key position produces the same code no matter what. Mike> Also heard about a PLATO system now online, I'm waiting for Mike> more details. See www.cyber1.org. paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Feb 27 12:26:48 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:26:48 -0800 Subject: FTP Server/Client for RSX? In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.1.20050227092402.01c88ab0@mail.saracom.com> References: <5.1.1.6.1.20050227092402.01c88ab0@mail.saracom.com> Message-ID: >From: "Dr.M.S.Moni" > >> Dear Sir, >> I am using an old pdp/11/73 (LSI 11/73) without >> network/lan/ card. The OS is RSX11M. Only an 8" floppy >> drive is avilable. I recently bought a DEQNA card >> withot any installation instructions. I do not have any >> file transfer program in my PDP. I tried to use the >> serial port to communicate to a PC without any sucess. >> I would like to install the DEQNA and use some FTP or >> Kermit software to transfer data from the PDP hard disk >> to a PC. How do I do it and where can I get the >> necesary software? Is it freely available or on >> payment? Since I am not an expert in computers I may > > need detailed instructions. Can you please help me? I > > shall be much obliged. > > > > -Dr.M.S.Moni >Hello, > >I received this request for help and was wondering if any one could >offer any suggestions. >I am not too familar with RSX. > >Max There is TCPware which will provide telnet and ftp, but it costs some serious money. I don't think it's possible to get Kermit to talk over ethernet. The only other option I can think of is DECnet (especially if the system already has it installed), with something on the other end that speaks DECnet, such as Linux. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sun Feb 27 12:50:36 2005 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:50:36 -0600 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:15:27 -0500 . <000c01c51cdf$2c0e3320$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <20050227185105.GELU1995.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> Ok, I guess I'll bite too. Age: 42 (born in 1962) First significant computer exposure was in '76 or '77 with my cousin's Altair 8800. Then spent a couple of summers in high school at university programs where I got to play with PDP-11s, some of the HP lab "calculators" and the Heathkit analog computer we all wish we had. While still in high school, I picked up a couple of 6800 based thingies. Went to Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology for BS in CS and EE. More fun with PDP-11s and a little with a VAX 11/780. This was my first exposure to UNIX. Then went to work for a telecom equipment compant first in engineering then in research. While in the research center, I did an MS in EE at Notre Dame. Next step was going back to school full-time at Purdue for a Ph.D. in CS (machine learning). After that I've taught at Rhodes College, worked for a telemetry company, an aftermarket automotive electronics company and now doing R&D at a logistics/shipping company and teaching part-time at University of Memphis. Brian L. Stuart From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 27 12:56:25 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:56:25 -0800 Subject: Top Posting (from a digest subscribers P.O.V.) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050227104240.03d52230@mail> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050225194101.02245530@popmail.ucsd.edu> <32983.64.169.63.74.1109407857.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <6.2.1.2.2.20050227104240.03d52230@mail> Message-ID: At one time I was a regular on a Tree shaped BBS where each reply attached to the message it was a reply of. No need to quote. (sort of like /. ) They were named after the "unpronounceable word" from Wizard of OZ, but everyone called them "pretzel" From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Feb 27 13:10:25 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:10:25 -0600 Subject: server maintenance References: <003901c51cec$2e5f1510$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42220DB9.5080103@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <001801c51cff$ffefc8f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Doc wrote... > Jay, we've recently converted some clients' mailservers from mbox to > maildir operation. I used a Perl script named mb2md.pl to migrate all the > client accounts' mail archives. > > If having each spool as a directory and post as a separate file in the > directory will help, grab mb2md. It's very well-documented and as far as > I can tell it's completely reliable. To my knowledge anyways, I don't believe mailman will deal with maildir format. I think it requires it's files to be mbox. I did get a utility that would expand an mbox file to a psuedo maildir format (not as an end in itself, but just to do it's work), then de-dupe the resulting messages, sort them, and rebuild the mailbox files with any date range you wanted. However, after I tried to use it I noticed it was extremely slow. So I dug into the code a bit, and it was using the unix filesystem to perform it's sort. Argh! So I pitched that approach :) Anyways, things are progressing... one thing I can't figure out exactly what to do with. The classiccmp list was originally one list, "classiccmp". Then it split into cctech and cctalk. There's never any posts to cctech that don't automatically wind up on cctalk, so there's really not much sense in maintaining a cctech archive. However, members of cctech by default can't see the cctalk archives and vice versa. So it's easiest to just let them each have their own archives, no big deal. But where do I put the archives before the split? Doesn't appear to be an easy way to set up a dummy list for the old classiccmp and even if there was - it's silly to expect someone doing research to have to search two or three lists separately. What seems to make the most sense to me is to put the classiccmp archives in the cctalk archives. That's logical anyways, because cctech was the actual splitoff. Hummm we'll see. Jay From news at computercollector.com Sun Feb 27 13:21:08 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:21:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <20050227185105.GELU1995.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> Message-ID: <20050227192108.39033.qmail@web52809.mail.yahoo.com> I'm 30. It's a simple story. Parents bought my brother and I an Intellivision, with just Pong, I don't remember if it was the late 1970s or early 1980s. Then we graduated to an Atari VCS (it wasn't a real '2600'). At school, I learned Logo -- pretty sure the hardware was Commodore but I don't remember 100%. That must've been in fourth or fifth grade; they school had just a couple of computers on these big wheeled carts, and once a week they'd bring them into each classroom for a couple of hours. LOL, for other kids the happiest time in school was lunch or gym or recess or just Friday: for me it computer day. In sixth grade we got Apple II+ computers in school; my brother (three years older) got a IIe for his bar mitzvah present. I pretty much took over that one. Used it all the way through high school and jumped directly to a 386 in college. It was completely by accident that I started collecting handhelds a few years ago. ===== Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Sun Feb 27 13:28:35 2005 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:28:35 -0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <422205C7.7000606@gmx.net> Message-ID: <001701c51d02$88a98bc0$e31f8d95@retrobbs.org> 35 here. I got into computers by hacking RSTS/E systems at Tempe High School, when taking a summer school course in programming. The computer lab had a row of DECwriter II terminals hooked up by acoustic 300 baud modems to a PDP 11/70 at Arizona State University. I went on to audit a class at ASU when I was 13, mainly so I could do some more hacking. Solved dungeon, got ejected from lab at ASU for hacking accounts. I'd write more boring stuff about my expolts as a spoiled kid, but I have to go sort out my spoiled kids... they need dinner and new bed sheets. Ironic, eh.. Take Care, Mark From tony.eros at machm.org Sun Feb 27 13:31:19 2005 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:31:19 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <20050227192108.39033.qmail@web52809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502271937.OAA61493@smtp.9netave.com> Okay, Microsoft Outlook has some really interesting quirks. One of them is that it displays a little pop-up message on the screen when a new piece of mail arrives. It's a small preview box, containing who the mail is from, when it was sent, the subject line, and a snippet of the message itself. The snippet I got for this particular message was a good one: "I'm 30. It's a simple story. Parents bought my brother" Now, I don't know why, but I was expecting something other than the follow-up of "and I an Intellivision" when I opened the e-mail. I mean no offense, but for some reason I was thinking the full message would be more along the lines of a Weekly World News story about how your parents had bought your brother and you from space aliens or something. The actual story about the game consoles was a little bit of a letdown. Again, I intend no disrespect -- for my own part, my mother always told me that I looked like the milkman when I asked her which side of the family I resembled... -- Tony -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Computer Collector Newsletter Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 2:21 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Age I'm 30. It's a simple story. Parents bought my brother and I an Intellivision, with just Pong, I don't remember if it was the late 1970s or early 1980s. Then we graduated to an Atari VCS (it wasn't a real '2600'). At school, I learned Logo -- pretty sure the hardware was Commodore but I don't remember 100%. That must've been in fourth or fifth grade; they school had just a couple of computers on these big wheeled carts, and once a week they'd bring them into each classroom for a couple of hours. LOL, for other kids the happiest time in school was lunch or gym or recess or just Friday: for me it computer day. In sixth grade we got Apple II+ computers in school; my brother (three years older) got a IIe for his bar mitzvah present. I pretty much took over that one. Used it all the way through high school and jumped directly to a 386 in college. It was completely by accident that I started collecting handhelds a few years ago. ===== Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 27 13:00:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:00:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: (List) Communication Options... In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Feb 26, 5 11:08:39 pm Message-ID: > > >>> > >>> Seriously, what do you reckon would be a "proper forum" > >>> for international discussion of classic computing? > >>> > > At the risk of being labeled a "Heretic" or worse. And with an upfront > statement, that this in no way reflects on the fabulous work being done by > Jay..... > > Now this *might* lead to something interesting.... A few thoughts (in no > particular order) For people who have to pay-per-minute for their internet connection (i.e. dial-up, metered calls, which is common in the UK), there is one big advantage to the mailing list. Namely that you can download all the messages (which takes a few minutes per day, even on an old/slow modem), then spend time looking up answers, checking manuals, etc and then send the repliex. I can assure you that I, for one, would be able to provide a lot less information if I couldn't look things up because I was paying for the time. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:41:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: server maintenance In-Reply-To: <001801c51cff$ffefc8f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Feb 2005, Jay West wrote: > What seems to make the most sense to me is to put the classiccmp archives in > the cctalk archives. That's logical anyways, because cctech was the actual > splitoff. Hummm we'll see. That is exactly right. CCTALK == classiccmp. CCTECH can be looked at as a separate list that draws from CCTALK. So doing it as you figured out is the logical way. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From list at saracom.com Sun Feb 27 13:55:28 2005 From: list at saracom.com (Max) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:55:28 -0500 Subject: Age and Computing History Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20050227144626.01c76250@mail.saracom.com> Well, Well born in 1963. I had always been interested in electronics and such. My first computer experiences were in high school. The school had a TRS80 Model 1 and accounts on the university's PDP11/45. I had bought a CoCo 1 with 4K! This was in my senior year. I go to the same university. It was Western Kentucky University (WKU). They still used the PDP11/45 with RSTE. Additionally, they had access to UK's IBM 360 via a smaller PDP11 with a card reader. So I got started with card readers and terninals. We ran a pirate exchange with the microcomputer lab etc. Fun times. I ended up buying the PDP11/45. Unfortunately a unplnanned move ocurred and I could not find anyone to take it. So sadly it went to the scrappers. This was before the Internet. I did keep the console panel. Max From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Sun Feb 27 14:01:48 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:01:48 +1300 Subject: More New Toys! References: <3.0.6.32.20050225220952.009a6ba0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><200502260107.RAA16243@clulw009.amd.com><200502260107.RAA16243@clulw009.amd.com><3.0.6.32.20050225220952.009a6ba0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050227082247.0093a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1a5801c51d07$2bb620e0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." > I understand all that but AC power is cheap and so is a fan to > dissapate > the excess heat. It's surprising to see a company spent money for > features > like this unless there is a very real requirement for them. Even HP > doesn't > go to this length with their power supplies. CVTs (resonant xfmrs) have the big advantage that they significantly reduce lots of noise and transients and such nasties that would otherwise cause havoc on a logic supply rail. They also provide a pre-regulating function to reduce the voltage range the following DC regulator has to handle. I think pre-regulators used to be fairly common in higher power regulated DC supplies- always thought it was due to limitations in the semiconductors available at the time. Saturable reactors on the primary side were often used - SCR based secondary side stuff came a bit later. DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.0 - Release Date: 25/02/2005 From tomj at wps.com Sun Feb 27 14:16:11 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:16:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: DG Nova 4/x software hacking In-Reply-To: <002f01c51cd7$570726c0$212fc4d8@icsdevelopment> References: <20050226020828.R2353@localhost> <20050226161950.F622@localhost> <002f01c51cd7$570726c0$212fc4d8@icsdevelopment> Message-ID: <20050227120744.L622@localhost> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005, George & Oksana Wiegand wrote: > You have to be careful if you want to delete a LINK, you must use the UNLINK > command otherwise the syetem will delete the target rather than the link > itself. I know about unlink, but I didn't know that about delete! Yow! I guess I should chattr everything P. I'll rewrite my LINKSV.MC to use a list of -.SVs, and (UNLINK, LINK arg/2) to avoid problems. One gotcha I remember this from the past is the variable syntax: COMMAND source dest vs. COMMAND dest source depending on the command! (MOVE vs. XFER, etc) I found NSYSGEN on one of the scroungy tapes, and made a custom system, and have 45KW of memory available, so not fortran5 and fortran4 both run. I'm getting the hang of RDOS again. It's often like a drawer full of scalpels when all you need is a butter knife :-) (for non-RDOS users) INIT DP0F "mounts" fixed disk platter vs. INIT/F DP0F "formats" fixed disk platter! It's pretty nice though. My big fat RDOS gen with all the buffers and stacks, forground/background, mapped memory support consumes 20KW! Time to get the other console up! (Not a power plant, W=word, B=byte. Power-wise, it consumes about 1.2 of those kind of KWs.) From tomj at wps.com Sun Feb 27 14:31:30 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:31:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <200502271728.j1RHSXA9029896@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200502271728.j1RHSXA9029896@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20050227121817.S622@localhost> Born 1955. My father was a ham, motorcycle nut, car nut, etc. I made electronic stuff since grade school, worked for an electronics company while in highschool (janitor, then technician, then programmer). Got pretty good at electronics young. Hooked on a Nova 1200, LINCtape, Silent700 on a little rollaround cart around 1975, then bought a SWTPC 6800 kit in 1977?, and got my first lesson in vaporware when I bought 4K BASIC from SWTPC and found it needed 6K to run. Debugged a solder bridge or something by tracing out MIKBUG program execution on the buss with a two-channel Tek tube scope ("give a boy a hammer, everything looks like a nail"). Wrote FORTRAN4 and Nova assembly, then a cross-assembler for my SWPTC machine for the Nova. About the only software I still have from that era, printed on paper. (I'm actually not that nostalgic; I have little interest in the computing stuff I worked on most, CP/M, MSDOS, hardware, 1977-1995. It's a weird coincidence I just got the Nova, though nostalgia certainly affected my decision to take it. Most of the science and tech stuff I'm interested in was made before I was born. ) Got my amateur Extra license a few years back so that I could put my two Korean-War-era PRC-6 vacuum tube handy-talkies on the air (6 meters). Plus mobile HF morse in my ancient Rambler auto :-) From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 14:32:33 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 20:32:33 +0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <0ICK008C7NJBKP@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0ICK008C7NJBKP@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <26c11a640502271232ed1cd63@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:16:27 -0500, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > Well, I couldn't resist. I am 33 years old (born 1970) Is somebody lying about their age ? Dan From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 27 14:33:17 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:33:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [OT]Homebrew PCB fabrication In-Reply-To: <16930.3376.562000.51761@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4218E180.4030500@gjcp.net> <42192407.9080609@ecubics.com> <42192793.7020106@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050226210454.GD20608@jdboyd.zill.net> <16930.3376.562000.51761@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <33053.64.169.63.74.1109536397.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Paul wrote: > That's pretty high. Best I've seen so far is $65 for 5 boards. Well, don't keep us in suspense. Where is this deal to be found? Eric From tomj at wps.com Sun Feb 27 14:35:43 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:35:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: server maintenance In-Reply-To: <001801c51cff$ffefc8f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <003901c51cec$2e5f1510$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42220DB9.5080103@mdrconsult.com> <001801c51cff$ffefc8f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20050227123408.S622@localhost> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005, Jay West wrote: > But where do I put the archives before > the split? Can't you symlink pre-split-cctech --> old-classiccmp pre-split-cctalk --> old-classiccmp so each would have a "tech" or "talk" in the current schema? From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 27 14:57:24 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:57:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <20050227121817.S622@localhost> References: <200502271728.j1RHSXA9029896@mwave.heeltoe.com> <20050227121817.S622@localhost> Message-ID: <33161.64.169.63.74.1109537844.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Tom wrote: > I'm actually not that nostalgic [...] Most of the science and tech > stuff I'm interested in was made before I was born. I don't see any reason why one can't be nostalgic for stuff that predates oneself. As Steven Wright said: I like to reminisce with people I don't even know. Granted, it takes longer. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 27 15:02:03 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:02:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <26c11a640502271232ed1cd63@mail.gmail.com> References: <0ICK008C7NJBKP@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <26c11a640502271232ed1cd63@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33172.64.169.63.74.1109538123.squirrel@64.169.63.74> > Is somebody lying about their age ? I'm 29, though next year I'm expecting difficulty in explaining to people that I'm 2A. But I have almost 7 years to go before I hit 30. I suppose that on the evenings that I work on the PDP-1 restoration project, I'm 51. C'est la vie. Eric From tomj at wps.com Sun Feb 27 15:25:55 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:25:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <33161.64.169.63.74.1109537844.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <200502271728.j1RHSXA9029896@mwave.heeltoe.com> <20050227121817.S622@localhost> <33161.64.169.63.74.1109537844.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <20050227132446.F622@localhost> >> I'm actually not that nostalgic [...] Most of the science and tech >> stuff I'm interested in was made before I was born. On Sun, 27 Feb 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > I don't see any reason why one can't be nostalgic for stuff that > predates oneself. As Steven Wright said: I generally assume (...) that 'nostalgia' is based upon feelings for one's own past; but I don't insist on that. From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Feb 27 15:42:04 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:42:04 -0500 Subject: Why are transistors called "Q"? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050225231940.0bb272d8@localhost> Message-ID: <16930.16044.104000.140845@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> "T" was taken (Transformer). That was also a problem when tubes >> began being used. I think they use X for tubes, don't they? Tony> Normally 'V' Certainly in UK manuals -- we call them 'valves', Tony> but HP and Tekky also use 'V'. Tubes are definitely V, in the USA too. X is a quartz crystal. I'm trying to remember where I saw CR for semiconductor diodes.... paul From dlormand at aztecfreenet.org Sun Feb 27 15:43:08 2005 From: dlormand at aztecfreenet.org (DAVID L. ORMAND) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:43:08 -0700 (MST) Subject: Age Message-ID: <200502272143.j1RLh8sC004410@aztec2.aztecfreenet.org> Age is 43, started trying to build 6502 machines after being exposed to a KIM-1 in college. Then tried to build 1802 machines. Actually got one to sort of work! Then I talked my dad into a TI-99/4A for "writing school reports" (which it did, plus a whole lot more) and have stuck to it. Now have several full-up 4A rigs plus a Geneve. Also played with Atari STs and Falcons, and dabbled with an 800 briefly. Now (in addition to the 4As) have several 386es and 486es running a variety of FreeDOS and linux, and a Slackware main system next to the Geneve and the 4Mb 520STfm. I learned programming in FORTRAN using punch-cards on an IBM mainframe at school, where I met a fellow who had built an 8080 machine in a file cabinet in his dorm room, and programmed it using punch-cards from the Computer Center. I have played with several VAXes over the years at work, including an intimate experience with VMS 4 on a MicroVAX II that was running the TI cross assembler for our TOW missile launcher software development (based on the SBP9989, a close relative to the 4A's TMS9900 and Geneve's TMS9995). Played peripherally with a TI 990 mainframe and programmed a real-time hardware-in- the-loop simulation on a 68000 ExorMACS. All in all, it's been a blast, and I wouldn't change a thing! From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Feb 27 15:54:05 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:54:05 -0500 Subject: [OT]Homebrew PCB fabrication References: <4218E180.4030500@gjcp.net> <42192407.9080609@ecubics.com> <42192793.7020106@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050226210454.GD20608@jdboyd.zill.net> <16930.3376.562000.51761@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <33053.64.169.63.74.1109536397.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <16930.16765.336000.333439@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Eric" == Eric Smith writes: Eric> Paul wrote: >> That's pretty high. Best I've seen so far is $65 for 5 boards. Eric> Well, don't keep us in suspense. Where is this deal to be Eric> found? I forgot the name. See recent issues of EE Times, last few pages, that's where the PCB fab ads are. This one comes with the catch-phrase "5 - 13 - 5" as in 5 days, 13 dollars per board, batches of 5 boards. paul From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Feb 27 15:59:30 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:59:30 -0800 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <422205C7.7000606@gmx.net> References: <002b01c51c7b$06490110$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <000c01c51cdf$2c0e3320$0100a8c0@screamer> <422205C7.7000606@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200502271359.31766.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I started my life in the computer business by joining IBM in 1961 after college. I was initially a Field Engineer on the IBM 7090/7094. The systems I worked on were located at Lockheed in Mountain View, CA, Ames Laboratory (NASA) and Stanford University. I was subsequently promoted to IBM's Development Labs in Poughkeepsie, New York where I developed diagnostic software for the IBM 7040/44. I subsequently wrote a diagnostic monitor for the (first) IBM 360/40 and then worked on the development of MVS - the operating system for System/360 mainframe. After leaving IBM I worked for the Federal Reserve System - running IT at the Philadelphia Fed. - and from there several other computer related jobs - and I finally started a consulting practice in 1988 specializing in network design and later (currently) computer related IP (intellectual property) matters. My first "home" computer was a CDC-160A which I purchased (for more $ than I'd care to admit) around 1968. I subsequently acquired a PDP-8/L, PDP-8/I, PDP-12, and a RPC-4000 (drum machine). I donated all of the above to various museums - the PDP-12 and the entire DECUS PDP-12 library going to the Computer History Museum here in Mountain View, CA. My current collection includes lots of various S-100 bus CP/M systems (Including IMSAI 8080, Polymorphic, etc.), Lots of Silicon Graphics systems (from PI -> Onyx Infinite Reality), Lots of Sun SPARCs (including a rare Sun portable of which only two prototypes were built), several IBM RS/6000's, several HP HP-UX systems, multiple VAXes, DEC PDP-11/23+, PDP-11/83, early Macintoshes, NeXT cube (w/Dimension Graphics), NeXT mono/color, Data General Nova clones, IBM AS/400, etc., etc. I also have a lot of software for the above - including OSs for all of the above. So I'd classify myself as one of, if not the oldest, "fart" on this list - with way too many computers... ;-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rmeenaks at olf.com Sun Feb 27 16:11:15 2005 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:11:15 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <26c11a640502271232ed1cd63@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0ICL00KRKCAJ49@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> That was actually a typo. I meant to say 34 years old (I will be 35 in June) I guess my fingers still things its 33 years old ;-) Ram -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Williams Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 3:33 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Age On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:16:27 -0500, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > Well, I couldn't resist. I am 33 years old (born 1970) Is somebody lying about their age ? Dan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 27 16:11:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:11:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Why are transistors called "Q"? In-Reply-To: <16930.16044.104000.140845@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Feb 27, 5 04:42:04 pm Message-ID: > Tubes are definitely V, in the USA too. X is a quartz crystal. I've seen 'Y' used for crystals too. > > I'm trying to remember where I saw CR for semiconductor diodes.... CR (Crystal Rectifier) and MR (Metal Rectifier) were not uncommon for semiconductor diodes at one time. Solartron certainly used that designation. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Feb 27 16:37:32 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:37:32 -0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <20050226185436.GX18613@slitesys.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200502272237.j1RMbQ55005591@dewey.classiccmp.org> On Sat, Feb 26, 2005 at 10:29:24AM -0800, O. Sharp wrote: > ...What do you suppose demand for our older machines will be like > after we're gone? I can't help but think a lot of ours are being > preserved because they're nostalgic to us, "the machines we grew up > on"; and a generation from now, the interest is going to be on > machines _that_ generation grew up on. Surely the machines _that_ generation all grew up on are going to be identical wintel boxen and the like? cheers w From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Feb 27 16:41:25 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:41:25 -0500 Subject: Good news, bad news.... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050227170540.03a87768@mail.30below.com> The good news: I found my Tandy 200 and repaired it. (All it needed was a new internal NiCd battery, but by the time I found the battery, my wife lost the computer! :-O ) Upgraded it to 72K RAM as well, so I'm really stylin' -- ready to rock with it. It's 20 years old this month! More good news: I found my 200 packed under my STacy 2, which I need to repair. It's got a boatload of dodgy solder joints in it... and now that I finally have a very good soldering station, I can work on repairing that as well! I can repair it... but sadly, I cannot *reassemble* it as the baggie with all the screws for it (mostly case screws, but some board screws as well) was *not* packed with it; and so their location is still unknown. Anyone know the size/thread pitch of the screws in a STacy? Thankz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From Saquinn624 at aol.com Sun Feb 27 16:44:14 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:44:14 EST Subject: More stuff available Message-ID: Free to good home: HP MDP module, P/N 5062-3054 - Can't test it since I don't have a 9000/K type Dell Pentium cache module (big DIMM type card) Also, I have a friend who has a HP 9000 Series 800 H50 server box (it's been unracked, but fits nicely under the desk (he gave me the one from another rack- runs HP/UX 11i just fine) Somewhere between 512 and 768 MB RAM, single 96 MHz processor, several HP-PB cards it's sitting in my garage, and he's given me permission to see if anyone wants it. He does audio recording, so if anyone has something to trade for it in that field that would be good, or we could do a 3-way trade (I'm interested in classic computers, I can get him what he needs, we're all happy...) Heavy beast (~70 lbs) so pickup would be easier than shipping, but shipping could be arranged. If no-one wants to trade, I'd try to talk him into giving it away. I'd rather it get used than sit in a garage. Reply off-list, etc. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Feb 27 16:51:01 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:51:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <33172.64.169.63.74.1109538123.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <0ICK008C7NJBKP@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <26c11a640502271232ed1cd63@mail.gmail.com> <33172.64.169.63.74.1109538123.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <200502272252.RAA11067@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I'm 29, though next year I'm expecting difficulty in explaining to > people that I'm 2A. But I have almost 7 years to go before I hit 30. Heh. When you have a form that asks for your birth year, I suppose you put down 7AB (or 7AC, as the case may be)? :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Feb 27 16:54:13 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:54:13 -0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <4220C829.59C835FD@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <200502272254.j1RMs29d006024@dewey.classiccmp.org> > It could be interesting to know the age"spread" of thist list > contributors, and how long we've had the computer virus >under our skin. 37, been computing since 1981 when my dad brought a ZX80 into the house and found meself to be amazed that I could tell it to do things in an english like language and it would just work. No tape recorder though, so I sharp learned the value of writing things down for later re-entry :) From there I went to the ZX81, Spectrum, Amiga 500 and then (spit) pc. However, I bought as many computing based magazines as I could afford, not realising that 20 years later I'd be getting hold of quite a lot of the machines featured in said magazines, though I still haven't tracked down a DAI :) Workwise I started in Operations on a dual-node ICL 2966 mainframe in 1984 then got the PDP bug when my old computing lecturer in college got me back in because he'd seen (apparently) fledgling interest on my part. The rest is all DEC based history..... cheers w From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Feb 27 17:08:04 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:08:04 -0700 Subject: Age References: <0ICK008C7NJBKP@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <26c11a640502271232ed1cd63@mail.gmail.com> <33172.64.169.63.74.1109538123.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <200502272252.RAA11067@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <422252D4.1090901@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: >>I'm 29, though next year I'm expecting difficulty in explaining to >>people that I'm 2A. But I have almost 7 years to go before I hit 30. > > > Heh. When you have a form that asks for your birth year, I suppose you > put down 7AB (or 7AC, as the case may be)? :-) HECK NO! .. thats what Roman numerals are for. :D From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 27 17:23:40 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:23:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jef Raskin In-Reply-To: <000701c51cd6$f767c800$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <000701c51cd6$f767c800$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <20050227152203.V50904@shell.lmi.net> > I didn't realize that he was ill. On December 22, he revealed that he had pancreatic cancer, and expected to die soon. We shall all miss him. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From brain at jbrain.com Sun Feb 27 17:18:35 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:18:35 -0600 Subject: [OT]Homebrew PCB fabrication In-Reply-To: <16930.16765.336000.333439@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4218E180.4030500@gjcp.net> <42192407.9080609@ecubics.com> <42192793.7020106@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050226210454.GD20608@jdboyd.zill.net> <16930.3376.562000.51761@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <33053.64.169.63.74.1109536397.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <16930.16765.336000.333439@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4222554B.5040504@jbrain.com> Paul Koning wrote: >I forgot the name. See recent issues of EE Times, last few pages, >that's where the PCB fab ads are. This one comes with the >catch-phrase "5 - 13 - 5" as in 5 days, 13 dollars per board, batches >of 5 boards. > > paul > > One need to define the "best" deal. For the price, that's the best price/board I have seen. However, if you just want 2 boards, custompcb will do 2 sided boards for $38.00, which is the lowest total price I'd seen. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 27 17:37:39 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:37:39 +0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <0ICL00KRKCAJ49@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0ICL00KRKCAJ49@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <1109547459.6040.70.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-02-27 at 17:11 -0500, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > That was actually a typo. I meant to say 34 years old (I will be 35 in > June) I guess my fingers still things its 33 years old ;-) That's OK, I missed out being 29 and managed to be 30 twice. Seriously. I lose track of numbers easily :-) From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 17:45:12 2005 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:45:12 +0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <200502272254.j1RMs29d006024@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <4220C829.59C835FD@guntersville.net> <200502272254.j1RMs29d006024@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <11c909eb0502271545252bed@mail.gmail.com> > > > It could be interesting to know the age"spread" of thist list > > contributors, and how long we've had the computer virus > >under our skin. > 1967. Started off writing BASIC on an RML 380Z at school computer club - must have been 1980. Thank you Alec Wood wherever you are. I count myself as exceedingly lucky as I got to play on some classic kit over the years - DECsystem 10 at poly, PDP8/e, several PDP11s and MicroVaxen while writing Pascal for Mass Spectrometers, then bigger Vaxen and other DEC kit at a big multinational. No doubt several of you would disagree, but I have seen few things in the last 15 years as functional and elegant as a Vaxcluster. These days we're mostly plugging badly designed commodity components together and it pains me that so few of my colleagues have neither any interest in their work or any comprehension of where this stuff came from. Never mind eh, people are idiots, including me, my highest paper qualification in the field being 'O' Level Computer Studies :) -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 27 17:57:24 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:57:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <1109547459.6040.70.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <0ICL00KRKCAJ49@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1109547459.6040.70.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <33463.64.169.63.74.1109548644.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Jules wrote: > That's OK, I missed out being 29 and managed to be 30 twice. Seriously. > I lose track of numbers easily :-) My sisters planned a birthday party for my mother once, and got all the birthday paraphernalia (ballons etc.) marked "50". She was turning 49. They say it was a mistake. From allain at panix.com Sun Feb 27 18:15:39 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:15:39 -0500 Subject: FTP Server/Client for RSX? References: <5.1.1.6.1.20050227092402.01c88ab0@mail.saracom.com> Message-ID: <00ca01c51d2a$a2f31a00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> If the data is ASCII text the Dr. can just use a terminal program with file logging, and go around typing all the files, then close and cut up the log. > I tried to use the serial port to communicate to a PC > without any sucess. You could describe the experience in more detail, that would help. This does require: correct wiring. A 25 pin to 9 pin RS232 with null modem.* matching speed and parity on both sides. use 9600 baud, 8 bits, no parity log-in ability on the PDP's serial port. try using the console port. Kermit or another terminal emulator on the PC side. * 25 pin serial connectors were the most common for PDPs let us know if that isn't what you have. John A. From rmeenaks at olf.com Sun Feb 27 18:24:56 2005 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:24:56 -0500 Subject: INFO 2000 Vintage S-100 Dual 8" Floppy Disk System Message-ID: <0ICL00ME7IHHA3@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> On ebay, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5170416637& rd=1 Cheers, Ram From rmeenaks at olf.com Sun Feb 27 18:31:09 2005 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:31:09 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <1109547459.6040.70.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <0ICL00LULIRWNG@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Wow! I don't know if I could take having TWO "over-the-hill" birthday parties ;-) Just one was a killer for me :-) Cheers, Ram -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 6:38 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Age On Sun, 2005-02-27 at 17:11 -0500, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > That was actually a typo. I meant to say 34 years old (I will be 35 > in > June) I guess my fingers still things its 33 years old ;-) That's OK, I missed out being 29 and managed to be 30 twice. Seriously. I lose track of numbers easily :-) From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Feb 27 18:37:46 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:37:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <200502271359.31766.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: > My first "home" computer was a CDC-160A which I purchased (for more $ than I'd > care to admit) around 1968. Was this purchase for a home based business, or strictly for fun? And just how much was it? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From kd7bcy at kd7bcy.com Sun Feb 27 16:45:27 2005 From: kd7bcy at kd7bcy.com (John Rollins) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:45:27 -0700 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <34e6173c8da951282ad3894a02a62b59@comcast.net> References: <200502261805.j1QI5beU025403@huey.classiccmp.org> <34e6173c8da951282ad3894a02a62b59@comcast.net> Message-ID: <18ea3440885cf2062c8a2927683898e7@kd7bcy.com> > It could be interesting to know the age"spread" of thist list > contributors, and how long we've had the computer virus under > our skin. Hmm. I'm currently 24, and the computers started as a tot when my parents bought a TI-99/4A - they say all I did was drool and pound on the keyboard :-) In the 90's we bought a Mac IIvx for homeschooling purposes(and still have piles of Broderbund disks around somewhere...). My collection grew pretty fast several years ago(some of that from here on the list), and has dropped back down now. Perhaps my mind is going, but I could have sworn I had unsubscribed from the list about a year ago, and now it's back. Maybe I did indeed send in an email to re-subscribe, but I REALLY don't remember. All I know is that the messages came back suddenly... Well, at least it's back to digest mode(I hope). I get too much email anyhow. I am currently a long haul truck driver, I am typing this message in Laredo, Texas. Ugh, too warm, even in the winter, but I suppose it's better than the below-freezing temps I had to put up with lately. Sadly, there is not much room in a 70" Freightliner sleeper cab for computers, so only my most recent computer, an iBook G4, keeps me company. Hmm... Perhaps I can grab an empty Mac 128k chassis to use as a hood ornament next time I'm home... Well, it's nice to be back on the list anyhow. Back to lurking... ------------ John Rollins | KD7BCY | http://www.kd7bcy.com Ham-Mac mailing list http://mailman.qth.net ------------ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Feb 27 20:15:35 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:15:35 -0500 Subject: Why are transistors called "Q"? In-Reply-To: <16930.16044.104000.140845@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050225231940.0bb272d8@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050227211535.009bf100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:42 PM 2/27/05 -0500, Paul wrote: >>>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > >> "T" was taken (Transformer). That was also a problem when tubes > >> began being used. I think they use X for tubes, don't they? > > Tony> Normally 'V' Certainly in UK manuals -- we call them 'valves', > Tony> but HP and Tekky also use 'V'. > >Tubes are definitely V, in the USA too. X is a quartz crystal. > >I'm trying to remember where I saw CR for semiconductor diodes.... I was told that CR states for Crystal Rectifier and I've seen it used in a lot of old military electronics. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 27 21:32:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:32:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0502271545252bed@mail.gmail.com> from "Pete Edwards" at Feb 27, 5 11:45:12 pm Message-ID: > Never mind eh, people are idiots, including me, my highest paper > qualification in the field being 'O' Level Computer Studies :) Well done. I failed that. I have no bits of paper for computing (or electronics for that matter) at all. -tony From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Feb 27 21:44:54 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:44:54 -0600 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: ASR33 $1000+ And Counting... In-Reply-To: References: <421E49CE.B9F1373F@rain.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050227213530.03f33d90@mail> At 11:48 PM 2/24/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Actually, it'd be interesting to see what some user interface gurus and >human-computer interface types (i.e. people who study these issues in >depth, including the psychology, physics, physiology, etc.) would say >about this. From what little research I've done, I'll bet they'd say that >top posting is inefficient and confusing in general. I went looking to see if Tog ever talked about it. All I found were these interesting and funny links. http://www.asktog.com/Bughouse/bhWindows.html http://inconnu.isu.edu/~ken/sigs_page.html - John From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Feb 27 17:12:52 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:12:52 +0000 Subject: Why are transistors called "Q"? In-Reply-To: <16930.16044.104000.140845@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050228040958.IDKK1836.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:42:04 -0500 > From: Paul Koning > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Why are transistors called "Q"? > Reply-to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > >> "T" was taken (Transformer). That was also a problem when tubes > >> began being used. I think they use X for tubes, don't they? > > Tony> Normally 'V' Certainly in UK manuals -- we call them 'valves', > Tony> but HP and Tekky also use 'V'. > > Tubes are definitely V, in the USA too. X is a quartz crystal. > > I'm trying to remember where I saw CR for semiconductor diodes.... > > paul Paul, Could be that from RCA stuff? Cheers, Wizard From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Feb 27 22:17:09 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:17:09 -0600 Subject: more progress, searchable archives Message-ID: <00f701c51d4c$60818c70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> The cctech archives have been indexed, check it out. www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/ The archives can be user selectable via thread, subject, author, or downloaded as text. In addition, you can now seach those archives (exact match (any or all) or boolean expression!), sort criteria, etc. At least for the things I was searching on, the results were returned QUITE fast. The index isn't built for the cctalk list yet, but it will be sometime tomorrow. Jay West From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Feb 27 23:35:47 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 05 05:35:47 GMT Subject: Age Message-ID: <0502280535.AA07667@ivan.Harhan.ORG> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I have no bits of paper for computing (or > electronics for that matter) at all. But you have a Ph.D., don't you? What is it in? Physics? MS From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 27 23:46:11 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:46:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Feb 28, 5 03:32:07 am" Message-ID: <200502280546.VAA13856@floodgap.com> > > Never mind eh, people are idiots, including me, my highest paper > > qualification in the field being 'O' Level Computer Studies :) > > Well done. I failed that. I have no bits of paper for computing (or > electronics for that matter) at all. Nor I (my Bachelor's is in general linguistics, and my doctorate is an MD). -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I may be underpaid, but I underwork just to make it even. ------------------ From tomj at wps.com Mon Feb 28 00:42:48 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:42:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data General Nova 4/X -- HELLO COMMA WORLD STOP Message-ID: <20050227223436.D15735@localhost> RDOS prompt is newline then "R". I had to re-create the FORTRAN IV distribution and libraries from random tape dumps. Of course the library file editor pages were missing from the manual I printed out! Had to build the fortran library, aargh. CLG is "compile load go" an all-in-one utility. Amusingly, RDOS isn't umm fully Y2K clean! Accepts year as 2005, but prints it variously as 105 or :5. I guess I'll write "hello world" in macro then assume I'm in business, and go work out the foreground terminal, line printer, etc... Thanks again Bruce for all the help!!!!! tomj R CLG HW HW.LS/L PROGRAM IS RELOCATABLE .TITL .MAIN HELLO, WORLD STOP R LIST HW.- HW.FR 82 D HW.SV 8192 SD HW.LS 9786 D HW.RB 282 D R HW HELLO, WORLD STOP R TYPE HW.FR C THIS PROGRAM DOES NOTHING BUT PROVE THAT IT EXISTS. TYPE "HELLO, WORLD" END R R TYPE HW.LS ; DGC FORTRAN IV REV 05.50NH ; C THIS PROGRAM DOES NOTHING BUT PROVE THAT IT EXISTS. ; ; TYPE "HELLO, WORLD" ; ; END 0001 .MAIN ; DGC FORTRAN IV REV 05.50NH ; C THIS PROGRAM DOES NOTHING BUT PROVE THAT IT EXISTS. ; ; TYPE "HELLO, WORLD" .NREL .TITL .MAIN .ENT .MAIN .NREL 000001 .TXTM 1 .EXTU .EXTN .I .F1: 00000'000000 .F2: 0 000000 .CSIZ 0 00001'000000 FS. .MAIN: 00002'002401 JMP @.+1 00003'000004' L1. L1.: 00004'006002$ JSR @.FWRI 00005'000021' .C1 00006'000000 0 00007'000006 6 .TXT "HELLO, WORLD" 00010'044105 00011'046114 00012'047454 00013'020127 00014'047522 00015'046104 00016'000000 ; 00017'000005 5 ; END 00020'006001$ JSR @.FRET 00021'000012 .C1: 000012 000000 FS.=0 000000 SFS.=0 177611 T.=-167 000011 V.=200+T. 177610 TS.=T.+177777 177611 FTS.=T.+0 000010 VS.=V.+177777 000011 FVS.=V.+0 .END 0002 .MAIN FS. 000000 FTS. 177611 FVS. 000011 L1. 000004' SFS. 000000 TS. 177610 T. 177611 VS. 000010 V. 000011 .C1 000021' .F1 000000' .F2 000000' .FRET 000001$X .FWRI 000002$X .I 077777 X .MAIN 000002' HW.SV LOADED BY RLDR REV 07.10 AT 22:08:51 02/27/:5 R LIST HW.FR 82 D ASM.SV @:ASM.SV FIV.SV 20992 SD LFE.SV @:LFE.SV FMT.LB 6292 D RLDR.OL @:RLDR.OL HW.SV 8192 SD SYS.LB @:SYS.LB FORT0.LB 7794 D FORT1.LB 22552 D HW.LS 9786 D SPEED.ER @:SPEED.ER CLG.SV 3584 SD RLDR.SV @:RLDR.SV FSYS.LB 4036 D N.SV DP0:NSPEED.SV FORT2.LB 18242 D COM.CM 8 FORT3.LB 13618 D FORT.SV 3072 SD HW.RB 282 D LIBS. 37 D BREAK.SV 14336 SD FORT.LB 62134 D R From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Feb 28 01:18:55 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:18:55 -0500 Subject: OT: AVR programming using SP12? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050228021451.03a4b168@mail.30below.com> Finally git my AVR 8515 programmer built and debugged -- I chose to build the programmer around SP12 -- it's a dos-mode programmer, but says it supports Win2k. Got everything built, plug 'er in, and no matter what, it says it can't find a valid chip. Hrmph. Anyone ever deal with AVR programming and/or the SP12 software? (SP12 is easiest found if you search google for "Programming a Spider's Brain".) I'm wondering if it's due to my dual-processors... Please keep replies off-list, as this is offtopic. Thanks all! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From cheri-post at web.de Mon Feb 28 02:07:57 2005 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:07:57 +0100 Subject: Age Message-ID: <695205920@web.de> Where are the young people on the list ? ;-) I'll turn 23 in a month and have been working on oldish and "cool" computers for approx. 7 years now. Started with a Philips P3200 (286, heavy stuff) which infected me with the bug... I can't talk of nostalgia as my machines are mostly from the time, I couldn't walk yet... DEC and CDC stuff, but also some SUNs from the time I started going to college. There's also stuff before I was born, like my PDP-8/a. It's funny to think about that. As adrian said, nostalgia from my time would be 386 and 486 and so on, which obviously aren't very interesting to investigate time on. Moreover, there's nothing you can repair on these things by yourself... Pierre ______________________________________________________________ Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS! Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Feb 28 02:56:14 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 00:56:14 -0800 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200502280056.14903.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 27 February 2005 16:37, William Donzelli wrote: > > My first "home" computer was a CDC-160A which I purchased (for more $ > > than I'd care to admit) around 1968. > > Was this purchase for a home based business, or strictly for fun? > > And just how much was it? I used the "excuse" that I was going to use it for a home based business - but I really just wanted one to "play" with. It was fortuitous that I was working at IBM when the "$ to standard-of-living ratio" was good.... I purchased the it directly from CDC and paid $25,000 for the 160A and it's associated Frieden Flexowriter (both in "used, rebuilt" condition)... That was a lot of bucks in 1968 dollars, but I was "desperate" for a home computer... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From tomj at wps.com Mon Feb 28 03:55:19 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:55:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: DG equipment in my future In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050228014439.C15735@localhost> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > With all the DG stuff happening around here, I thought I'd mention > that I'm trying to work out a rescue of some unknown DG rack from a > machine shop in Central Ohio that was bought new, approx 25-30 years > ago by said machine shop for approx $50K. I have no idea what to > expect except a tape drive in the top of the rack and a "very heavy > disk drive" in the bottom of the rack. > > My contact has no idea what any DG equipment is, so I'll get a > surprise when I show up, I suppose. In the meantime, from the rough > age and cost, would anyone care to speculate what I might be facing > when I see it? I'm hardly a DG expert, and actual experts may have replied off-list, but 1980 plus/minus five years it's probably very approximately like mine. DIsk drive heads need to be locked down before transport or they'll likely self-destruct. If it's one of the typical top-loader disk drives, there's little lock levers on each side of the front rack handles, flip these down and slide the cabinet out. If it won't come out more than 1" there's a latch on the rear, lift it up. Remove the cartridge (dust cover, slide lever on handle to engage, lift >BONK< place in dust cover, fold handle). There "ought to be" a shipping dust cover to fill up the hole... With the drive all the way out, take the 4? 6? screws from the sides and lift off the cover. There's a red bracket bolted with an allen screw on the right of the head motor assembly, take it off and flip it around, that locks the heads. Non-removable disks have a similar system but I don't know it. If it's got small metal toggle switches it's a rare early Nova, by all means take it! If it's a plastic front panel it is newer. If it's from some CNC thing it prpbably has paper tape. From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Mon Feb 28 05:44:31 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:44:31 +0100 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <001401c51be6$d6e30f40$2101a8c0@finans> References: <001401c51be6$d6e30f40$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <1109591072.30610.27.camel@fortran> OK, at a mere OCT 20 years I think I'm the youngest on the list - I started out playing around with NIBBLES.BAS on my dad's business 286 Vectra laptop (he worked in Shipping at HP), I can't really remember when, but I was young - around three years old. When dad got his 486, I played extravagant amounts of Commander Keen 4. Started writing tiny programs in the library at school on the 386 there when I turned 7. I have fond memories of lending my dad's HP95LX and playing with it, especially after he got his 100LX. The 95LX was confiscated by my school and subsequently lost by the teacher, and the 100LX was broken by my baby stepbrother who tripped over the charger... and gave me two HP50LX'es... Had a fascination with 1980s computers like the Commodore 64, sat in the basement typing BASIC games off the "Learn BASIC" book when I was around 10-11. I think I was about 12 when a friend of my mom's lent me a machine with Visual BASIC - and I did some very... BASIC stuff with that too, but rapidly started getting a hold of things At age 14 I sort-of got a job setting up Windows XP machines for a local gaming place, where I met Bj?rn Vermo, investor, cctech mainframe guru and list member, and his girlfriend, Debbie, who told me about the Informatics library and the books there. I managed to navigate my way there, and was shocked to find a PDP-7 in the atrium. I did not know much about big iron back then, so it was a great opportunity to learn a lot more. And learn I did - I subscribed to this list (first cctech digest, then cctech, then the full cctalk - addictive :), started getting into Linux, learning to code a Real Language, learning about electronics, and classic computing, etc. I found it remarkable how much one learns when one completely ignores school! Now I just recently got my very own PDP-11, which I with the help of gordonjcp over IRC fixed :) My dream job is working at a museum, maybe even starting a separate computer museum (which Norway, with a very interesting computer history, IMHO really needs, but that's another thread :) Hell, I'd be a building super if they let me use a 360/91 as the furnace :) -- Tore S Bekkedal From rmeenaks at olf.com Mon Feb 28 06:42:34 2005 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:42:34 -0500 Subject: Looking for a 6U (both J1/J2 populated) 4 to 8-slot VME chassis Message-ID: <0ICM00LGOGN3EI@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I need a VME chassis to hook up some of my transputer cards to my Ultra Enterprise 2 workstation (as well as my PC). I current have a PTSBS915 Sbus-to-VME adapter on my SUN and a SBS Bit3 Model 617 PCI-to-VME adapter on my PC. I need a small chassis as I currently don't have much space left. Something similar to the ELMA portables like the following: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3669&item=6742586384& rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW If you have one please respond off-list... Thanks, Ram From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Feb 28 09:29:56 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:29:56 -0800 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <001401c51be6$d6e30f40$2101a8c0@finans> References: <001401c51be6$d6e30f40$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <422338F4.2070503@pacbell.net> > It could be interesting to know the age"spread" of thist list contributors, > and how long we've had the computer virus under our skin. I am 43, born in 1961. I got a small amount of exposure to coding in BASIC and FORTRAN in a summer "computer camp" for high school students, but my serious hands-on experience with computing really got underway when I built an IMSAI 8080 from a kit in 1977. I attended college at Carnegie-Mellon University, which was a hard-core DEC shopw during the time I was there, with PDP-10s, DECSYSTEM-20s, PDP-11s, and VAXen everywhere. I also got to play with the Altos and the PERQs, the latter sometimes more than I cared to. I've had a longstanding interest in computer history, and obtained my first classic machine, a PDP-8, while I was still living in Pittsburgh. I put it in storage shortly thereafter, however, and moved to California for graduate studies. I ended up staying and working in the Silicon Valley, and for almost 20 years my historical interests remained purely academic. VCF 6.0 changed that, and reawakened my interest with the realization that not only were old computers more fun back then, but they still are today! I started collecting old machines again a little over a year ago, and haven't looked back. Strangely, but like a few others here, my nostalgia is reserved primarily for machines *earlier* than the ones I used. Switches and blinkenlights, core memory, hardwired control, no LSI -- that kind of thing. I think that I balk at thinking of anything I remember well as being truly *old*. ;) --Bill From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Feb 28 09:39:16 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:39:16 -0600 Subject: Age References: <001401c51be6$d6e30f40$2101a8c0@finans> <422338F4.2070503@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <00c101c51dab$aa87d950$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> William wrote... > obtained my first classic machine, a PDP-8, while I was still living in > Pittsburgh. I put it in storage shortly thereafter, however, and moved to > California for graduate studies. So ya know, since you never mentioned getting it OUT of storage and shipping it to CA.... I can head up there with a van & all... ;) Jay From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Feb 28 09:42:43 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:42:43 -0500 Subject: Age Message-ID: <18551a31854453.185445318551a3@optonline.net> > > So ya know, since you never mentioned getting it > OUT of storage and shipping > it to CA.... I can head up there with a van & all... ;) > And the Race Is ON.......Illegal Road Rally with the PDP-8 as a prize....Gentlemen (and others) start your engines! From kth at srv.net Mon Feb 28 10:07:27 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:07:27 -0700 Subject: lk201 question In-Reply-To: <200502261729.56250.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <200502261729.56250.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <422341BF.5020501@srv.net> Mike wrote: >I just picked up a lk201 keyboard today that wouldn't work with a vt320 > >Unlike my other lk201's this one has blue strip across the top, an orange pf1 >key, f20 is labeled Hyph Push > >PN: LK201BA > >One site selling them says it is a word processing keyboard. > > There were several word processing keyboards, depending on which software you were using. DecWord, WordPerfect, All-In-One, etc. >red lights and an error 4 on a VT 330. > > > Usually indicates a bad keyboard. (Error 4=keyboard) Check the keyboard-terminal cable. Check for stuck keys. You could try disassembling it, cleaning the contacts connecting the logic board to the main keyboard, then try to reassemble it. Sometimes (rarely) it helps. They are a bitch to disassemble/reassemble (You WILL need to disassemble the connectors (bend out the pins holding them to the circuit board, releasing the connector) to re-insert the clear flat plastic cables. >How many variations of LK201 were produced? >Are they interchangeable? > > Many. They should all be interchangable. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 28 10:58:19 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:58:19 -0500 Subject: More Free SUN stuff Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050228115819.009ad180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> All of this stuff came from NASA KSC and is in original SUN boxs. I don't know if it's new or was pulls during an upgrade. I believe the specs are correct but I didn't spend any time checking them. Sun Super Sparc 10 30Mhz MBUS CPU 501-1889, 501-2239 SM30 For Sparc 10 only so I've been told. Two Differential SCSI/Ethernet (DSBE/S) Cards. PN 501-1902 Workstations: Sun 4/75, SPARCstation 5, 10, 20 Ultra 1, 1E, 2 Servers: SPARCserver 6x0MP, 1000, PARCcenter 2000 Enterprise 3x00, 4x00, 5x00, 6x00, 10000 Option 1052 Sun PN 501-2270 SM 41 X1161A 40 Mhz CPU for Sparc 10 and SS600MP Model 41. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 28 11:03:05 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:03:05 +0000 Subject: Taking photos of displays... Message-ID: <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain> Recent discussion about photographing machines prompted this one. Has anyone got any useful tips for photographing (with a digital camera) running machines such that whatever's on the screen is captured with some kind of decent quality? I've been playing around with all the manual settings on my camera and just experimenting (using any kind of auto mode results in banding on the computer's display, and of course use of flash is no use for a shot of a glass screen). So far results have been mixed though... Any useful hints much appreciated! cheers Jules From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Feb 28 11:14:44 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:14:44 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... Message-ID: <18a8faf18aaf92.18aaf9218a8faf@optonline.net> > > Has anyone got any useful tips for photographing (with a digital > camera)running machines such that whatever's on the screen is > captured with > some kind of decent quality? > Depends if the screen display is static [constant content]. If constant, use a tripod and go slow [>1/60 Sec]. If the display is changing rapidly.... Again on a tripod from a fixed location... 1) 1 Shot with the shutter speed / f-stop balanced for the overall shot (don't worry about the screen) 2) A series of shots at a FAST shutter speed (1/500 or 1/1000) to capture the screen. It takes some playing to get a good composition [for *MY* monitor (21" Viewsonic) 1/1000 and f5.6 from a distance of about 5" on MY Olympus camera, is usually the center point for my bracket. Then with the wonders of digital photography....cut and paste.. From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Feb 28 11:08:53 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:08:53 -0500 (est) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 28, 05 05:03:05 pm Message-ID: <200502281708.MAA07127@wordstock.com> And thusly Jules Richardson spake: > > > Recent discussion about photographing machines prompted this one. > > Has anyone got any useful tips for photographing (with a digital camera) > running machines such that whatever's on the screen is captured with > some kind of decent quality? > > I've been playing around with all the manual settings on my camera and > just experimenting (using any kind of auto mode results in banding on > the computer's display, and of course use of flash is no use for a shot > of a glass screen). So far results have been mixed though... > > Any useful hints much appreciated! > > cheers > > Jules This is what I remember from reading old computer magazines... The room must be dark, with the only light coming from your monitor. You also need you camera on a tripod because you need to have the shutter stay open for a longer period of time. Cheers, Bryan Pope From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Feb 28 11:20:12 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:20:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: More New Toys! Message-ID: <200502281720.JAA17952@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Nasty of them to do that. Maybe make a motor generator :) Dwight >From: "Steve Thatcher" > >AMC used a resonant transformer in the Em series. It has no primary taps on >it for switching voltages. It also needs to run at the required frequency. >Joe's first thought of scavenging the transformer (and cap) from other box >is the only way to go. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > >At 08:07 PM 02/25/2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >From: "Joe R." >> > >>---snip--- >> > >> > I also found another Applied MicroSystems microprocessor Diagnostic >> >Emulator unit. These one is an EMM-188 for the 8080 and 8085 CPUs. I also >> >got an EMM-188 pod with it for testing 8080 circuits. It appears to be in >> >new condition, there's just one problem, it's wired for 220VAC 50Hz! I also >> >got the original fitted case for it but it has a problem too. The interior >> >was made of that foam that likes to turn to goo after a while! It took a >> >bit to get everything cleaned up! Anybody know what it takes to convert one >> >of these back to 110 volts or do I just swap the xformer out of one of the >> >podless ones that I have? >> > >> > >> >>Hi >>1. Use another transformer of about half the core weight as >>an autotransformer to step the voltage up to the 220V. This >>doesn't have to be a 110 in to 220 out full transformer, just >>one that has the split primary. You only use the primary. >>2. Look to see if the transformer already has two primary windings >>that can be arranged for 110v. >>Dwight > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Feb 28 11:22:59 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:22:59 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42235373.3090804@atarimuseum.com> Flash is a big no - no... I find taking a 45-60 degree angled shot usually gets a good photo. For straight on shots, the best is if you have a camera with a night shot feature no-flash, it keeps the iris open longer and you can usually get a very good photo. Curt Jules Richardson wrote: >Recent discussion about photographing machines prompted this one. > >Has anyone got any useful tips for photographing (with a digital camera) >running machines such that whatever's on the screen is captured with >some kind of decent quality? > >I've been playing around with all the manual settings on my camera and >just experimenting (using any kind of auto mode results in banding on >the computer's display, and of course use of flash is no use for a shot >of a glass screen). So far results have been mixed though... > >Any useful hints much appreciated! > >cheers > >Jules > > > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Feb 28 11:37:32 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:37:32 -0500 Subject: lk201 question References: <200502261729.56250.kenziem@sympatico.ca> <422341BF.5020501@srv.net> Message-ID: <16931.22236.576000.346014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Handy writes: Kevin> Mike wrote: >> I just picked up a lk201 keyboard today that wouldn't work with a >> vt320 >> >> Unlike my other lk201's this one has blue strip across the top, an >> orange pf1 key, f20 is labeled Hyph Push >> >> PN: LK201BA >> >> One site selling them says it is a word processing keyboard. >> >> Kevin> There were several word processing keyboards, depending on Kevin> which software you were using. DecWord, WordPerfect, Kevin> All-In-One, etc. I doubt that DEC ever made keyboards for WordPerfect. And I haven't heard of All-In-One keyboards either. The keyboard Mike mentioned is a DECword keyboard. Kevin> Check the keyboard-terminal cable. Check for stuck keys. One possibility: you could make an adapter to plug it into a UART port, then write a test program to see what's wrong with it. The protocol is simple (4800 baud 8 bit messages) and well documented in the Pro 300 series technical manual. Then again, if it's a stuck key or something like that, the keyboard is beyond repair. LK201 keyboards are cheesy low quality membrane switches that cannot be disassembled or cleaned or repaired. If moisture ever gets in them, your only option is to scrap the board. I found this out the hard way. paul From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Feb 28 11:37:37 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:37:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <200502281708.MAA07127@wordstock.com> References: <200502281708.MAA07127@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > This is what I remember from reading old computer magazines... The room > must be dark, with the only light coming from your monitor. You also need > you camera on a tripod because you need to have the shutter stay open for > a longer period of time. I took some shots with the room light with a torchiere style light (pointing at the ceiling), and the camera on a tripod with a manual shutter release. I'm happy with that setup. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com Mon Feb 28 11:45:50 2005 From: m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com (Mark Wickens) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:45:50 +0000 Subject: IBM AS/400 Model B10 Message-ID: <200502281745.50379.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Hello list, Just a quick question: I've been offered an IBM AS/400 Model B10. Is there anything interesting I can do with it, or interesting software I can run on it? I'll leave 'interesting' open to your own interpretation. Regards, Mark -- Mark Wickens Rhodium Consulting Ltd From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Feb 28 11:55:55 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:55:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <42235373.3090804@atarimuseum.com> References: <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <42235373.3090804@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200502281805.NAA28253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> [Curt responding to Jules Richardson] >> I've been playing around with all the manual settings on my camera >> and just experimenting (using any kind of auto mode results in >> banding on the computer's display, and of course use of flash is no >> use for a shot of a glass screen). Sounds to me as though you want a long exposure, which means either low light or a slow film; since the screen is self-luminant, low light is not a good way to handle it in this case. But... >> (with a digital camera) Yeah, if your camera doesn't have settings equivalent to exposure time and film speed, it sounds to me like a case of Don't Do That, Then. Not that that's teribly helpful. > For straight on shots, the best is if you have a camera with a night > shot feature no-flash, it keeps the iris open longer and you can > usually get a very good photo. Iris? This is a digital camera; they often (usually?) don't actually have an iris. I suspect you may have to put the camera on a tripod (or equivalent means of keeping it fixed) and take something like a dozen pictures and then digitally average them, to get the equivalent of a long exposure with a slow film. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Feb 28 12:22:45 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:22:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <1109591072.30610.27.camel@fortran> References: <001401c51be6$d6e30f40$2101a8c0@finans> <1109591072.30610.27.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <32892.64.169.63.74.1109614965.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Tore wrote: > Hell, I'd be a building super if they let me use a 360/91 as the > furnace :) Is there a 360/91 still in existence? There seem to be few 360s of any model still around. The Computer History Museum in Mountain View CA USA has a 360/30. I hope we can restore it someday. Eric From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Feb 28 12:26:30 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:26:30 +0100 Subject: Sprite OS trouble. Message-ID: <20050228192630.1c03c9c5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. I am trying to bring up a Sprite cluster. [1] I was able to get the demo system running on a SPARCstation 1+ by dd-ing the boot image to a disk. Now I wane label an additional disk, make LFS, ... make the new disk bootable to get more free disk space then I have on the premade boot image. But I can't get a label on the disk with labeldisk nor did I succeed using fsmakeprompt. The later crashes... Next step is to bring a SPARCstation 2, an IPX and two ELCs into the cluster. Is there someone out there with Sprite experience who can help me? Additionaly I was not able to get the PMAX image to work on my DECstation 5000/240 nor my DECstation 3100. Any ideas? Do I really need a DECstation 5000/200 for this? [1] http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/Research/Projects/sprite/ A mixed architecture, distributed single system image OS capable of process migration that presented the cluster to a user as a single, large multiprocessor machine. Pmake and LFS (Log-Structured File System) originate from Sprite. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 28 12:28:25 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:28:25 -0500 Subject: More Free SUN stuff Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050228132825.0092bca0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I guess I should have been more clear. These are just cards, not complete systems. Joe All of this stuff came from NASA KSC and is in original SUN boxs. I don't know if it's new or was pulls during an upgrade. I believe the specs are correct but I didn't spend any time checking them. Sun Super Sparc 10 30Mhz MBUS CPU CARD PN 501-1889, 501-2239 SM30. For Sparc 10 only so I've been told. Two Differential SCSI/Ethernet (DSBE/S) Cards. PN 501-1902 Workstations: Sun 4/75, SPARCstation 5, 10, 20 Ultra 1, 1E, 2 Servers: SPARCserver 6x0MP, 1000, PARCcenter 2000 Enterprise 3x00, 4x00, 5x00, 6x00, 10000 Option 1052 Sun PN 501-2270 SM 41 X1161A 40 Mhz CPU CARD for Sparc 10 and SS600MP Model 41. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 28 12:24:51 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:24:51 -0500 Subject: More New Toys! In-Reply-To: <200502281720.JAA17952@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050228132451.009ac830@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> If I HAVE to i can do better than that. I have a variable frequency variable voltage AC supply. It can generate true Sine wave AC from 9 to 9,999 HZ and any voltage from 0 to about 270 volts. It's big and heavy as hell but it's the cat's ass when it comes to meeting odd power requirements! Joe At 09:20 AM 2/28/05 -0800, Dwight wrote: >Hi > Nasty of them to do that. Maybe make a motor generator :) >Dwight > >>From: "Steve Thatcher" >> >>AMC used a resonant transformer in the Em series. It has no primary taps on >>it for switching voltages. It also needs to run at the required frequency. >>Joe's first thought of scavenging the transformer (and cap) from other box >>is the only way to go. >> >>best regards, Steve Thatcher >> >>At 08:07 PM 02/25/2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>> >From: "Joe R." >>> > >>>---snip--- >>> > >>> > I also found another Applied MicroSystems microprocessor Diagnostic >>> >Emulator unit. These one is an EMM-188 for the 8080 and 8085 CPUs. I also >>> >got an EMM-188 pod with it for testing 8080 circuits. It appears to be in >>> >new condition, there's just one problem, it's wired for 220VAC 50Hz! I also >>> >got the original fitted case for it but it has a problem too. The interior >>> >was made of that foam that likes to turn to goo after a while! It took a >>> >bit to get everything cleaned up! Anybody know what it takes to convert one >>> >of these back to 110 volts or do I just swap the xformer out of one of the >>> >podless ones that I have? >>> > >>> > >>> >>>Hi >>>1. Use another transformer of about half the core weight as >>>an autotransformer to step the voltage up to the 220V. This >>>doesn't have to be a 110 in to 220 out full transformer, just >>>one that has the split primary. You only use the primary. >>>2. Look to see if the transformer already has two primary windings >>>that can be arranged for 110v. >>>Dwight >> >> >> > > > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Feb 28 12:43:48 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:43:48 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... Message-ID: <18fa43f18f82f1.18f82f118fa43f@optonline.net> > I suspect you may have to put the camera on a tripod (or equivalent > means of keeping it fixed) and take something like a dozen > pictures and > then digitally average them, to get the equivalent of a long exposure > with a slow film. > Little bit of a problem with that logic...you would want to "accumulate" or "sum" the light from shorter exposures to simulate a longer one, not "average". And if the light is low enough you could end up summing a bunch of "0"'s in any case.... From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 28 12:58:27 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:58:27 -0500 Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050228135827.009b89d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone have any information about this part? I've been told that it's a high performance microprocessor. I found it on what looks like a hex size DEC card made by Spectra Logic Corp. I found a picture of one on the net but it's not very good. Joe From tomj at wps.com Mon Feb 28 13:02:35 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:02:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <200502281708.MAA07127@wordstock.com> References: <200502281708.MAA07127@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20050228105431.R20811@localhost> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: >> I've been playing around with all the manual settings on my camera and >> just experimenting (using any kind of auto mode results in banding on >> the computer's display, and of course use of flash is no use for a shot >> of a glass screen). So far results have been mixed though... With chemical photography: When I had some artwork professionally photographed, to catch all the indicators etc the photographer did multiple-exposures, as suggested here. "Static" display equiv. The stuff was operating, and illuminated and photographed normally, then again with lights-out, longer exposure, enhanced the light-generating parts. He did a number of exposures, I picked out the ones that looked best (slides). That way also you don't get color reciprocity failure; with really long low-light exposures, the dyes in the color film don't all react at the same rate, so the colors get all muddy. Don't use a "one hour" developer under any circumstances, pro developers don't charge much more, take a few days, and do excellent work. "One hour" places work by literally turning up the heat on the development process, which ruins grain. I suspect they don't change chemicals as often and I can tell you, my pro photos look great after 10 years while the "one hour" photos look like crap at 10 years. It really makes a huge difference. Pretty much all "brand" film these days is pretty good, its all in the development, even with a relatively crappy camera. I've noticed my low-light digital photos look muddy too, I don't know what's goin on there, maybe someone here does. From allain at panix.com Mon Feb 28 13:06:14 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:06:14 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... References: <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain><42235373.3090804@atarimuseum.com> <200502281805.NAA28253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <050801c51dc8$9371ca60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> This is already a pretty wordy discussion, but anyway... Watch for reflections in the screen. If you can see a reflection with the display off, there will be some overlaid image effects with the display on. Careful control of surrounding light levels can lower the effect while still allowing photography of the rest of the machine. The video* signal is strobing at something like 30-80 hz. The camera's shutter speed should be slower than at least 1 frame of the screen. I use 1/20th second for noncritical work. Those are the big 2 factors. Flash should be off for those reasons. If you have autofocus=off, autoexposure=off controls, use them too. * flames off plz John A. From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Feb 28 13:06:48 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:06:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: More New Toys! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050228132451.009ac830@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050228132451.009ac830@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Joe R. wrote: > If I HAVE to i can do better than that. I have a variable frequency > variable voltage AC supply. It can generate true Sine wave AC from 9 to > 9,999 HZ and any voltage from 0 to about 270 volts. It's big and heavy as > hell but it's the cat's ass when it comes to meeting odd power requirements! Ha! neener-neener-neener: Mine's GPIB, as well! (Behlman KBF-200-D-SZ76) and it sure is a handy thing for 400 HTz MilGear, testing servo motors, and calibrating low-audio power devices up to 2KVA. Works off 220V single-phase mains, too... Gotta love Surplus! Cheerz John From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Feb 28 13:10:01 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:10:01 -0500 Subject: More New Toys! Message-ID: <190dd221913616.1913616190dd22@optonline.net> ... true Sine wave AC ... 9,999 HZ ... 270 volts. ...the cat's ass. A howl, and lots of smoke... << Contacting ASPCA..... From ICS at Core.com Mon Feb 28 13:12:38 2005 From: ICS at Core.com (George & Oksana Wiegand) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:12:38 -0500 Subject: New RK07K Disk Packs Available Message-ID: <008601c51dc9$8da5ea20$372fc4d8@icsdevelopment> Contact for Disk Packs... I have for sale up to five unused/sealed disk packs comprising DIGITAL (DEC) RK07K DC . Let me know if you can use these. John Stephen Urciolo P.O. Box 61150 Potomac, Maryland 20859 301-983-1998 (9am - 9pm EST) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Feb 28 13:18:15 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:18:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age Message-ID: <200502281918.LAA17989@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Born in the year of the transistor. My first programming experiences were 6800 and 8080 machine code. I then went on to use PLM-80, a little PASCAL and BASIC. My first computer was a Poly-88 that I bought used for $400. I was one of the ones that went to the West Coast Computer Fair to buy my first floppy drive. While there, I picked up a listing of Forth. Up to that time, writing large programs was a mystery to me. How was it that one could use something like BASIC to actually do something significant. Forth taught me how to factor problems and because of its natural flow to create significant programs on the fly. For a long time, I tried to convince people how right Forth was compared to other languages. I've since come to realize that people all think differently. Some like the comfort of natural languages ( BASIC ) while others like the compactness of programs ( APL ). Some feel that millions can't be wrong ( C ), while others like to explore the abstract ( SmallTalk ). I just like to get working programs as quick as I can so I can fiddle some more with the hardware. Each to their own. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Feb 28 13:23:16 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:23:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? Message-ID: <200502281923.LAA17994@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > > Does anyone have any information about this part? I've been told that >it's a high performance microprocessor. I found it on what looks like a hex >size DEC card made by Spectra Logic Corp. I found a picture of one on the >net but it's not very good. >16DC.jpg> > > Joe Hi I might have a manual someplace that has it in it. It was a single chip combination of a number of 2901's in one package. I think it had a 2910 as well. I forget if it was 4 or 16 2901's. Still, basically an extension of the 2900 bitslice family. It will be some time before I can dig into my piles to find a book on it. Anyway, it was still considered part of the bitslice family and not a uP. Dwight From javickers at solutionengineers.com Mon Feb 28 13:25:14 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:25:14 +0000 Subject: Age Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050228192512.02a739d8@slave> Born 1973, currently 31. First experience/sight of a computer was at around age 9-10 at primary school, when the class got to use a loaned BBC 'B' for a day. I was hooked there & then. I didn't see another computer until I went to secondary school. The computer lab there had: about 8 ZX Spectrums in a network (of sorts), 1 BBC 'B' (which spent most of its life playing Revs), and one Sharp MZ-80K (which I acquired a few years later). Sometime between 1982 and 1985, Dad had an Apple ][ Europlus on loan from works; he learned DBase, I learned Apple Basic - which I've long since forgotten. I do recall a rather good helicopter game though (one rescued soldiers or somesuch from burning buildings. Also a flight simulator game, which ate many a child-hood hour. In February 1984, Dad ordered a Sinclair QL, which eventually showed up in about June or July. I used that in its barebones 128k twin MDV setup for about seven years, before finally buying disk drives (Well, a 5.25" single drive), then extra memory, then a Gold Card, then twin 3.5" drives, before finally retiring it for good in about 1994. I still have that QL, & most of the accessories I ever bought/acquired. Between 1986 and 1990 - I have long forgotten the actual dates, and I almost forgot the actual machine! - I owned a ZX Spectrum - which I later swapped for a CBM Plus/4 + games. During the same period, I had a BBC 'B' on loan; with a very flakey keyboard connector which I eventually had to replace myself, using ordinary stranded ribbon cable. Euch. It never was quite the same after that. At sometime between 1990-1992, someone (I never met them) asked me to write some software on a Commodore PET 8032SK; I got to play with the complete system (it included an 8040(?) double drive unit & printer). Around this sort of time I made the fatal error of selling the Sharp MZ-80K for ?10 to a mate. Oops. The PET system eventually went back to its owner in about 1993 (I think) - software un-written. In 1994, I finished college & went to work, starting on a 486DX33. I got my own PC the same year (a DX2/66), and have used PCs to work on ever since. My classic comps collection, though, didn't really get going until 2000, when I bought another QL. And another one.... I have about 7 now. Also a BBC B, a BBC Master, a Spectrum or 4, a ZX81, a pair of Osborne 1's, a collection of PETs (including an 8032-SK), a pair of MZ-80K's, 2 -80A's and an -80B, and so on. Big iron wise, I would covet a Vax 8800 (as used at N. Staffs Polyversity), but have to make do with an HP 1000F & an A700. So there you go... I am currently slimming down my oversized collection somewhat, as it's getting to be a PITA to haul around everytime I move house (4 times in 5 years so far). Cheers, Ade. From GFisher at tristonecapital.com Mon Feb 28 13:26:36 2005 From: GFisher at tristonecapital.com (Gary Fisher) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:26:36 -0700 Subject: Jef Raskin dies Message-ID: Another pioneer taken before his time: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050228.gtraskin0228/BNStory/Technology/?query=jef+raskin Gary Fisher This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Unless otherwise stated, opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author and are not endorsed by the author's employer. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 28 13:34:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:34:18 +0000 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <200502281805.NAA28253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <42235373.3090804@atarimuseum.com> <200502281805.NAA28253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1109619258.8698.41.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 12:55 -0500, der Mouse wrote: > >> (with a digital camera) > > Yeah, if your camera doesn't have settings equivalent to exposure time > and film speed, it sounds to me like a case of Don't Do That, Then. > Not that that's teribly helpful. FWIW if I stick the camera into manual mode I do have total control over shutter speed (1/2000th sec to 15 secs) and aperture (f2.0 to f8.0) so I should be able to do something reasonable there. I don't know if I should be playing around with manual focus or not too; depends whether the auto-focus tries to focus on the front of the display tube or the actual text I suppose - trial and error time. Just thought I'd pick on list wisdom to save me going back and forth between the place downstairs where I can take photos, and upstairs where the PC is that I can download images to :-) (LCD displays obviously being too small to tell how good a detailed shot is going to turn out. I can probably zoom/pan around the image on the camera, but I haven't worked out how yet :) Under Linux, I don't think there's any way I can pull metadata off the camera along with images - so if I take lots of shots under a trial and error approach, I have to note down what settings I was using for which shot which is getting to be a pain in the butt! ta for all the pointers, Jules From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Feb 28 12:56:39 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:56:39 +0000 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:03:05 GMT." <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200502281856.SAA31495@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, julesrichardsonuk said: > > Recent discussion about photographing machines prompted this one. > > Has anyone got any useful tips for photographing (with a digital camera) > running machines such that whatever's on the screen is captured with > some kind of decent quality? > > I've been playing around with all the manual settings on my camera and > just experimenting (using any kind of auto mode results in banding on > the computer's display, and of course use of flash is no use for a shot > of a glass screen). So far results have been mixed though... Long exposures a neccesary, several display frames worth if possible. I usually use a tripod and shutter speeds of about 1/8 sec with a film camera. Standing the camera on something and shooting with the self-timer (to avoid shaking the camera with your hand) will work. Assuming you want to show the equipment in the same shot as the display, if you can manually meter with your camera - or a seperate meter - adjust the lighting in the room so that the exposure metered from the computer or monitor case is about the same or a little less than the exposure reading from the display. You might need to fill the screen with a screenfull of characters, such as capital em, if it's a text display, in order to get a good reading of the brightness of the characters. Meter close up to the display for this. I cheat and use a proper spot-meter, but not everyone has one :-) Unfortunately digital cameras don't give you much in the way of metering options (unless you spend oodles of money!). Judging the light levels by eye is not *too* difficult, but will take a bit of practise. Any lighting should be well off the camera axis, of course, to avoid reflections and a polaroid filter is a godsend. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Feb 28 03:00:54 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:00:54 +0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:32:07 GMT." Message-ID: <200502280900.JAA23482@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > > Never mind eh, people are idiots, including me, my highest paper > > qualification in the field being 'O' Level Computer Studies :) > > Well done. I failed that. I have no bits of paper for computing (or > electronics for that matter) at all. Me too neither...:-) The only formal computer tutoring I've had is when the firm sent me on a Filetab programming course. My only electronics qualification is a Radio Amateur Exam certificate - for what that's worth! (Anyone in the UK see the BBC Open University tv program on the early days of computer programming the other night? Plenty of film and stills of early computers, including films of EDSAC, ENIAC etc and interviews with Maurice Wilkes and other pioneer programmers.) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From mhscc at canada.com Mon Feb 28 13:39:20 2005 From: mhscc at canada.com (mhscc at canada.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:39:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Back to the future Message-ID: <20050228113920.6825.h006.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> Just watched a Stephen Hawking documentary last night; looks like he was wrong: time does go backwards when the universe contracts (as it's apparently doing) - the cctalk archive already has messages from 2008 & 2025 :-) m From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Feb 28 13:51:33 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:51:33 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... References: <200502281708.MAA07127@wordstock.com> <20050228105431.R20811@localhost> Message-ID: <16931.30277.123000.219741@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> I've noticed my low-light digital photos look muddy too, I don't Tom> know what's goin on there, maybe someone here does. That's noise in the sensor. Photoshop may be able to help a bit with that. Cooling the sensor helps too, but that's probably not practical for a camera. (It's how astronomers use CCD sensors, I believe. Some vague memory says that liquid nitrogen works really well here. It certainly did in an image intensifier demo I saw at the local astronomy club 30 years ago.) paul From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 14:00:56 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:00:56 -0500 Subject: classic X86 hardware Message-ID: Before you guys start to laugh at me, I would like to itemize some. 1. The original IBM PC 5150/5160 MB 2. The HP 100LX, 200LX palm PC 3. The original Nexgen pentium class PC 4. The IBM "butterfly" 486 laptop 5. You name it cheers, vax, 9000 From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Feb 28 14:06:07 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:06:07 -0500 Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? References: <200502281923.LAA17994@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <16931.31151.225466.208411@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: Dwight> Hi I might have a manual someplace that has it in it. It was Dwight> a single chip combination of a number of 2901's in one Dwight> package. I think it had a 2910 as well. I forget if it was 4 Dwight> or 16 2901's. Still, basically an extension of the 2900 Dwight> bitslice family. The impression I got is that it's a fairly distant relative of the 2901. It's a 16 bit processor. The 2901 lets you build a processor of whatever width you like, and between the 2910 and other stuff you can do pretty amazing execution stream control stuff. The 29116 is more of a conventional microprocessor in the sense that it does what the designers put into it, neither more nor less. Good if that's what you want, because it's less work. I once saw the UDA50 microcode -- which uses the 2901 and 2910. Basically, the 2901 is an ALU, and the 2910 is the instruction fetch and branch controller. In the UDA50, the microcode sources had two instructions per line -- one the 2901 instruction, the other the 2910 instruction. There was a one cycle delay between the two, in other words the 2910 on cycle N used condition codes set by the 2901s at cycle N-1. This could produce weird looking code like this: clr foo ; bne bar because the bne would react to the result of the previous line ALU operation. It takes an unusually strange mind to cope with an architecture like this. (No wonder Richie Lary liked it...) paul From emu at ecubics.com Mon Feb 28 14:09:17 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:09:17 -0700 Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050228135827.009b89d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050228135827.009b89d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42237A6D.9050305@ecubics.com> Joe R. wrote: > Does anyone have any information about this part? I've been told that > it's a high performance microprocessor. microprogrammable b16 it cpu (includes ALU, 32 Registers, Barrel Shifter, etc.) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Feb 28 14:05:33 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:05:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <18fa43f18f82f1.18f82f118fa43f@optonline.net> References: <18fa43f18f82f1.18f82f118fa43f@optonline.net> Message-ID: <200502282010.PAA29074@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I suspect you may have to put the camera on a tripod (or equivalent >> means of keeping it fixed) and take something like a dozen pictures >> and then digitally average them, to get the equivalent of a long >> exposure with a slow film. > Little bit of a problem with that logic...you would want to > "accumulate" or "sum" the light from shorter exposures to simulate a > longer one, not "average". And if the light is low enough you could > end up summing a bunch of "0"'s in any case.... Both true. I was actually being a bit too abbreviated. I was assuming you'd be using normal lighting, under which circumstances the only problem with an ordinary digital snap would be the banding on the CRT. And if they're all decent pictures except for the banding, averaging is a decent tack to take. (Assuming of course that the camera's "shutter" timing is random with respect to the monitor's vertical scan, which is probably a reasonable assumption.) After all, long exposure makes the picture more exposed (as compared to a shorter exposure, other things constant); slow film makes the picture less exposed (as compared to a faster film, other things constant). So you long exposure plus slow film adds up to wanting the "normal" lighting conditions. And that kind of lighting is what you want for a digital camera anyway. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From kth at srv.net Mon Feb 28 13:40:13 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:40:13 -0700 Subject: lk201 question In-Reply-To: <16931.22236.576000.346014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200502261729.56250.kenziem@sympatico.ca> <422341BF.5020501@srv.net> <16931.22236.576000.346014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4223739D.1030405@srv.net> Paul Koning wrote: > Kevin> There were several word processing keyboards, depending on > Kevin> which software you were using. DecWord, WordPerfect, > Kevin> All-In-One, etc. > >I doubt that DEC ever made keyboards for WordPerfect. And I haven't >heard of All-In-One keyboards either. The keyboard Mike mentioned is >a DECword keyboard. > > WordPerfect used to make them. I can't remember if it was complete keyboards, or just replacement keycaps. I also don't know of anyone who bought one. > Kevin> Check the keyboard-terminal cable. Check for stuck keys. > >One possibility: you could make an adapter to plug it into a UART >port, then write a test program to see what's wrong with it. The >protocol is simple (4800 baud 8 bit messages) and well documented in >the Pro 300 series technical manual. > >Then again, if it's a stuck key or something like that, the keyboard >is beyond repair. LK201 keyboards are cheesy low quality membrane >switches that cannot be disassembled or cleaned or repaired. If >moisture ever gets in them, your only option is to scrap the board. I >found this out the hard way. > > It's usually easier to just find a new one. I only tried to repair one when I was desperate for a working one, having used up whatever good spares I had. At that it just was swapping to get a good keyboard/logic board combo. Most of the keyboards I looked at had been built using the "melted-plastic-post" method to hold it together, iirc. Nearly impossible to take apart and expect to be able to put back together. Not worth the effort. > paul > > > > From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Feb 28 14:22:39 2005 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steve Jones) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:22:39 -0500 Subject: Sprite OS trouble. In-Reply-To: <20050228192630.1c03c9c5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20050228192630.1c03c9c5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1109622159.6483.32.camel@abort.crash.com> I'm in the process of packing up the house for a move in a few weeks, so it would be massively irresponsible to start poking at Sprite now. (Can you tell I'm trying to convince myself?) But I might have to test some of the gear as I'm sorting it for the trip... Sprite was going to be the focus of my undergrad senior thesis before my college career fell apart. I had been corresponding with members of the UCB team and was getting the hardware together. So needless to say, my enthusiasm for a Sprite project is high. And both the hardware and software are well past the 10 year rule... If I can figure anything out (I've got a DS3100, DS5000/260, a couple DS5000/200s, and relevant Sun gear) I'll let you know. Meanwhile, keep us informed! Good luck, --Steve. From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 14:26:34 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:26:34 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <1109619258.8698.41.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <42235373.3090804@atarimuseum.com> <200502281805.NAA28253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109619258.8698.41.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > Under Linux, I don't think there's any way I can pull metadata off the > camera along with images - so if I take lots of shots under a trial and > error approach, I have to note down what settings I was using for which > shot which is getting to be a pain in the butt! I am using Nikon 995 and I download the images to linux directly (via USB). The model supports the kind of flash storage protocal, and I can mount it directly as a local directory. I heard that many new cameras could be mounted too. vax, 9000 > > ta for all the pointers, > > Jules > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Feb 28 14:30:36 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:30:36 -0600 Subject: Found another Commodore calculator Message-ID: <00bb01c51dd4$5d9cda40$63406b43@66067007> Added a model 886D to the collection and now I have 4 different Commodores. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Feb 28 14:32:15 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:32:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <18fa43f18f82f1.18f82f118fa43f@optonline.net> References: <18fa43f18f82f1.18f82f118fa43f@optonline.net> Message-ID: <45402.64.139.41.130.1109622735.squirrel@64.139.41.130> dvcorbin wrote: > Little bit of a problem with that logic...you would want to "accumulate" > or "sum" the light from shorter exposures to simulate a longer one, not > "average". The difference between a sum and an average of a fixed number of samples is only a constant factor (1/n), so they are basically equivalent in this context. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Feb 28 14:34:24 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:34:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050228135827.009b89d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050228135827.009b89d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <45479.64.139.41.130.1109622864.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Joe wrote about the Am29116: > Does anyone have any information about this part? I've been told that > it's a high performance microprocessor. It's a 16-bit bit-slice component, not a microprocessor per se. Think of it as a successor of sorts to the 4-bit Am2901. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Feb 28 14:54:47 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:54:47 -0500 Subject: Age Message-ID: <42238517.2080103@compsys.to> I was born on July 24th, 1938. If I am not the oldest member, then someone else will have to answer - unless I missed your response. By the way, what is the current (unique) list count: cctalk / cctech? Remember that I am a software addict (as opposed to 95% who are hardware addicts) using MACRO-11 under RT-11. My first system in 1960 was the IBM 650 (which has been discussed recently) using SOAP (Symbolic Optimal Assembly Program) as the name of the Assembly Language. The optimal referred to the location of the instructions on the drum which were placed in the next available location on the drum so that the instruction was available ASAP after the previous instruction was finished. The drum size was 2000 words of 10 decimal digits - or about the equivalent of 20 KBytes. I probably used the IBM 1620 in 1961 with assembler. I seem to remember the Univac 1107 in 1963 with FORTRAN. The IBM 7094 arrived in 1965 with FORTRAN and assembler. Then came the CDC 3300 in 1967 with assembler. The next 5 or 8 years are a bit of a haze. The CDC STAR-100 was included during that time period using assembler and MALUS. I seem to remember about 1 MByte of core memory and a program address space of 32 TerraByes (with a 48 bit address). I can't remember the disk drives at all. The PDP-11/05 seemed to arrive around 1975 with MACRO-11 under V02.? of RT-11. The disk drive was a DEC RK05 with 2.5 MBytes per removable media. I think the memory was 32 KBytes of core. Although I occasionally used a VAX after that, I seem to remember running RT-11 on a PDP-11 of some kind ever since 1975. At present I have many Qbus PDP-11 systems available with most not assembled. If I ever get the energy, there are probably enough parts to put together about 2 dozen Qbus PDP-11 systems, mostly PDP-11/23 and PDP-11/73. I still design and write programs, mostly in MACRO-11. But lately, I tend to run RT-11 under an emulator since the emulated features are much better than the real DEC PDP-11/83 that is still available. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 28 15:00:13 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:00:13 +0000 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: References: <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <42235373.3090804@atarimuseum.com> <200502281805.NAA28253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109619258.8698.41.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1109624413.8717.47.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 15:26 -0500, 9000 VAX wrote: > > Under Linux, I don't think there's any way I can pull metadata off the > > camera along with images - so if I take lots of shots under a trial and > > error approach, I have to note down what settings I was using for which > > shot which is getting to be a pain in the butt! > > I am using Nikon 995 and I download the images to linux directly (via > USB). The model supports the kind of flash storage protocal, and I can > mount it directly as a local directory. I heard that many new cameras > could be mounted too. Good point. I don't think Gphoto (at least the version I have) works with my camera (a Canon G5) in PTP mode - which is what I believe would be needed for it to copy all the extra metadata stuff as well as images... but you're probably right, and it probably appears under the filesystem somewhere which might do the job. I've just been playing around and had a lot of luck with trying the suggestion of taking two seperate images then combining them in software - the monitor taken on automatic and the screen done on manual (0.4 secs / f8.0, along with re-evaluating the white balance). Problem solved, I think :) cheers to all Jules From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Feb 28 15:12:21 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:12:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <32892.64.169.63.74.1109614965.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: > There seem to be few 360s of any model still around. They are around, but no one does anything with them and the owners generally don't like to talk about them (probably out of fear of being bombarded with sales offers). I think at one point I had a running list of 12 or 13 survivors. Most were 40s and 50s, none were the real monsters. S/370s, for being newer (and I think more plentiful when produced), are in far fewer numbers. The list for them is only 3 or 4. I suppose they just don't have the prestige of the earlier models. What is going to be a big gaping hole in the mainframe line is that of the machines of the 70s and 80s*. As far as I know, no one saved any machines in the 30xx line. The last 3090s have pretty much been retired. Even ES/9000s are not doing well, although every so often one of the rackmount models (922x) appears on Ebay. The IBM clone ("PCM"s) scene of the 70s and 80s is very bleak - the list is 1, and that machine is not even complete. *Oddly, the true survivors are PDP-10s and Cybers, the two lines that died. > The Computer > History Museum in Mountain View CA USA has a 360/30. I hope we can > restore it someday. IBM. Tough stuff. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 28 15:14:23 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:14:23 -0700 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <200502281918.LAA17989@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200502281918.LAA17989@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <422389AF.50401@jetnet.ab.ca> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi > Born in the year of the transistor. > > Gasp ... Now I have to look that up! > For a long time, I tried to convince people how right Forth >was compared to other languages. I've since come to realize >that people all think differently. Some like the comfort of >natural languages ( BASIC ) while others like the compactness >of programs ( APL ). Some feel that millions can't be wrong ( C ), >while others like to explore the abstract ( SmallTalk ). > > I like FIG-Forth but not any of that newer stuff. I have not found I language I like -- most are too BIG for my liking since I tend to look the hardware of small machines. C was nice until it got standardised. > I just like to get working programs as quick as I can so I >can fiddle some more with the hardware. Each to their own. > > I split 50% between simple hardware and unbloated software. I'm still loking for a nice language to bootstrap my homebrew hardware with. >Dwight > > Ben alias woodelf. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Feb 28 15:18:20 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:18:20 -0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <200502280900.JAA23482@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <200502282118.j1SLIPfX021647@dewey.classiccmp.org> > (Anyone in the UK see the BBC Open University tv program on > the early days of computer programming the other night? > Plenty of film and stills of early computers, including films > of EDSAC, ENIAC etc and interviews with Maurice Wilkes and > other pioneer programmers.) Bah, I didn't know it was on! Then again, if it was the weekend I wouldn't have seen it anyway as I spend most of the weekends in bed to recover from the working week :o\ cheers a From vcf at siconic.com Mon Feb 28 15:21:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:21:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting Message-ID: So I made the adapter cable to connect an 8" drive to my PC. The basic connections seem to be there. I can actually format a disk from MS-DOS, at least halfway, meaning the drive goes through the motions of formatting all 77 tracks but then when it goes to write the directory and other whatnot it can't move the head back to track 0. The format aborts saying it can't write the boot sector. If I then try to DIR the disk the head backs up a track or so but can't seem to recalibrate to track 0. The head vibrates as if the drive is sending the signals to the stepper to retract the head but it only manages to move back a track or so each time I issue DIR. If I do it enough it eventually gets back to the stop position but it still gets sector errors. I verified that the drive susbsystem I'm using is good by booting RT-11 off it. I was able to access both drives in the system from RT-11. The PC system only sees drive B:, or at least when I try to access drive A: (which is configured in the BIOS as a 1.2M 5.25" floppy, as is drive B:) it does not engage the head. The notes I used to make my cable indicate that this might be what I should expect, since it said to jumper the 8" drive as Drive 1: http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/8-525.html "Set the drive to respond to Drive Select 1 (the default for PC drives)" (under the "Drive links" section). So I suppose it would make sense that the PC only sees drive B (drive select 1). Or does it? Any ideas? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Feb 28 16:36:45 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:36:45 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <200502280056.14903.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200502280056.14903.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <20050228173645.68c445d3.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 00:56:14 -0800 Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Sunday 27 February 2005 16:37, William Donzelli wrote: > > > My first "home" computer was a CDC-160A which I purchased (for > > > more $ than I'd care to admit) around 1968. > > > > Was this purchase for a home based business, or strictly for fun? > > > > And just how much was it? > > I used the "excuse" that I was going to use it for a home based > business - but I really just wanted one to "play" with. It was > fortuitous that I was working at IBM when the "$ to standard-of-living > ratio" was good.... > > I purchased the it directly from CDC and paid $25,000 for the 160A and > it's associated Frieden Flexowriter (both in "used, rebuilt" > condition)... > > That was a lot of bucks in 1968 dollars, but I was "desperate" for a > home computer... > > Lyle > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > I'm surprised you didn't get in trouble as an IBM employee for owning a CDC machine, back in that day and age. From ericj at speakeasy.org Mon Feb 28 16:41:31 2005 From: ericj at speakeasy.org (Eric Josephson) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:41:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: classic X86 hardware In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, 9000 VAX wrote: > Before you guys start to laugh at me, I would like to itemize some. > 1. The original IBM PC 5150/5160 MB > 2. The HP 100LX, 200LX palm PC > 3. The original Nexgen pentium class PC > 4. The IBM "butterfly" 486 laptop > 5. You name it > 5. DEC Rainbow 6. Victor 9000 (Sirius I) 7. Heath/Zenith 100 or 120 8. IBM PS/2 Model 25 9. DEC Vaxmate? From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 17:03:27 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:03:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: UPDATE on Texas Instruments 990 business computer Message-ID: <20050228230327.96626.qmail@web40908.mail.yahoo.com> 1978(?) Texas Instruments 990 business computer. The owner wants $750 for it. Too much for me, but certainly a nice system. See photo links. There is also an external drive system, not sure if floppy or HD - it's at her house. http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/system-1.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/system-2.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/system-3.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/system-4.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/system-5.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/front-1.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/manuals.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/ti-990.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/ds10.jpg (these photos are in my ebay directory, but the system is not in my possession, and certainly not on ebay) This system is in Los Angeles. Anyone want to pick it up for $750? Must take all of it! Steve. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Feb 28 17:31:28 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:31:28 -0500 Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050228135827.009b89d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050228135827.009b89d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4223A9D0.6010602@splab.cas.neu.edu> The 1979 AM2900 Family Data Book by Advanced Micro Devices has two whole pages on it, as Advance Information! 16 bit bipolar micro, designed for controller applications, allows 10Mhz clock rate, 32 registers. I'll look to see if I have a newer book with more info Joe Heck Joe R. wrote: > Does anyone have any information about this part? I've been told that >it's a high performance microprocessor. I found it on what looks like a hex >size DEC card made by Spectra Logic Corp. I found a picture of one on the >net but it's not very good. >16DC.jpg> > > Joe > > > From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Feb 28 17:39:38 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:39:38 -0500 Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050228135827.009b89d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050228135827.009b89d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4223ABBA.10600@splab.cas.neu.edu> DC suffix is hermetic DIP, commercial temperature range. the 1985 Bipolar Microprocessor Logic and Interface data book has about 30 pages of description on the chip. I have it in paperback only. Joe Heck Joe R. wrote: > Does anyone have any information about this part? I've been told that >it's a high performance microprocessor. I found it on what looks like a hex >size DEC card made by Spectra Logic Corp. I found a picture of one on the >net but it's not very good. >16DC.jpg> > > Joe > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 28 16:46:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:46:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <0502280535.AA07667@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Feb 28, 5 05:35:47 am Message-ID: > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > I have no bits of paper for computing (or > > electronics for that matter) at all. > > But you have a Ph.D., don't you? What is it in? Physics? Yes, in particle physics. My thesis contains schematics for a homebrew transputer system and source listings in pascal, occam and a custom microcode...... -tony From james at jdfogg.com Mon Feb 28 15:34:44 2005 From: james at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:34:44 -0500 Subject: classic X86 hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1109626484.8779.4.camel@kendall.jdfogg.com> On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 15:00 -0500, 9000 VAX wrote: > Before you guys start to laugh at me, I would like to itemize some. > 1. The original IBM PC 5150/5160 MB > 2. The HP 100LX, 200LX palm PC > 3. The original Nexgen pentium class PC > 4. The IBM "butterfly" 486 laptop > 5. You name it Yes, I like these candidates. I don't remember the HP's or Nexgen though. I loved the Thinkpad 701's - my crowd referred to them as the "transformer" laptops after the kids toy robots. I'd add the Compaq Portable III, if only because I like plasma displays. Also the IBM convertibles and PC Juniors. Perhaps I'd throw in a PS2 only because they were so different. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon Feb 28 15:36:13 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:36:13 +0000 Subject: Taking photos of displays... Message-ID: <022820052136.22120.42238ECD000671280000566822007358340603970A04040108@comcast.net> Many years ago when a EGA monitors were new, we had a Professional photographer take product shots of our DOS base software. He set up the PC in a room where he could turn off the lights, He took 3 second exposures of the screen then fired a strobe to get the computer case. I have found the long exposures give good results. You need a tripod. Simple point and shoot digital cameras don't allow for an external strobe. I have used two methods to get around this. Turn down the lights (turn off the flash) and take a picture of the screen. Use a normal or dim brightness setting on the montior. Turn up the lights (or tun on the flash) and take a second picture of the complete system. Use a photo editing package to merge the two images. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/CT_1024/CT1024_Index.htm I have also adjusted the lighting to low level and taken a single shot. http://home.comcast.net/~swtpc6800/CT_1024_New/CT1024_ebay3.jpg I am currently selling this SWTPC CT-1024 TV Typewriter on eBay. (item number: 5169085449.) I have 4 working TV Typewriters, I need some room for new projects. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Feb 28 15:45:34 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:45:34 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <200502282010.PAA29074@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <18fa43f18f82f1.18f82f118fa43f@optonline.net> <18fa43f18f82f1.18f82f118fa43f@optonline.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050228162728.00b0f2a0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that der Mouse may have mentioned these words: >After all, long exposure makes the picture more exposed (as compared to >a shorter exposure, other things constant); slow film makes the picture >less exposed (as compared to a faster film, other things constant). So >you long exposure plus slow film adds up to wanting the "normal" >lighting conditions. And that kind of lighting is what you want for a >digital camera anyway. Unless, of course, you actually have a decent digital camera... ;-) http://www.30below.com/~zmerch/d70/Nitetime_shot_30sec.jpg It's a big picture - 3028x2002 pixels (native resolution of my Nikon D70) - 1.2Meg of storage used -- it's a 30-second exposure of downtown Grand Rapids, Michigan about 8:07 PM local time (2008 hrs) through smoked glass using a little hand-held tripod. And yes, it has an iris, shutter (speeds from 30sec -> 1/8000 sec) takes most Nikon lenses made in the last 15ish years... The last camera I'll buy for a long, long time... ;-) [[ Tony's gonna bitch at me at this one, but I finally have a digital camera that takes pictures as nice as my Canon 35mm film camera. So it got sold on ePay. Megapixel, schmegapixel - I looked at the last 4-5 rolls of film I took with that camera, and I printed several pictures on my Kodak dyesub from my new one - to my eye, they are equally aesthetic - therefore I'm happy. Oh, and the last roll of 800-speed film I ran through that camera didn't look as nice as some ISO800-setting pix off of my Nikon. Bad film processing? Maybe, but now I don't have to worry about that anymore, eh? ;-) ]] I have a couple of other pictures in that directory y'all are welcome to look at... One of which is my wife. The one holding the microphone is *not* my wife... :'-(( However, considering the circumstances that picture was taken in, my old Canon would've never had a chance with that one, either... ;-) =-=-=-=-= Back on topic - if you just happen to have one of the Apple // LCD panels, or if you hack up a NTSC->VGA converter (like I was considering for my CoCos) -- or what I wanna do - run the CoCo's output to a capture card and display the output on my PC to save space on my desk monitorwise, be very careful with "polaroid" (a.k.a. polarizing) filters. LCDs use polarized glass, and two opposing polarizing filters can do strange things... ;-) Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Feb 28 16:10:24 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:10:24 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... References: <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <42235373.3090804@atarimuseum.com> <200502281805.NAA28253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109619258.8698.41.camel@weka.localdomain> <1109624413.8717.47.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <16931.38608.243313.715894@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 15:26 -0500, 9000 VAX wrote: >> > Under Linux, I don't think there's any way I can pull metadata >> off the > camera along with images - so if I take lots of shots >> under a trial and > error approach, I have to note down what >> settings I was using for which > shot which is getting to be a >> pain in the butt! >> >> I am using Nikon 995 and I download the images to linux directly >> (via USB). The model supports the kind of flash storage protocal, >> and I can mount it directly as a local directory. I heard that >> many new cameras could be mounted too. Jules> Good point. I don't think Gphoto (at least the version I have) Jules> works with my camera (a Canon G5) in PTP mode - which is what Jules> I believe would be needed for it to copy all the extra Jules> metadata stuff as well as images... but you're probably Jules> right, and it probably appears under the filesystem somewhere Jules> which might do the job. Something about this sounds odd. The metadata is right in the JPG files. At least it is on my Nikon 880. There's nothing else on the file system (which is a plain old FAT filesystem). Yes, you can read it via USB. I've had no luck at all with that on Linux, but I didn't try very hard. The main reason is that, on a laptop, it's easier and faster just to plug in the CompactFlash card using a $10 PCMCIA adapter, and read directly from there. It shows up in Linux as a disk, you just read it. paul From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Mon Feb 28 12:22:17 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:22:17 +0100 Subject: origins of IBM 3740 diskette format In-Reply-To: <002e01c51ca0$96d47be0$2101a8c0@finans> References: <20050224194755.7264.h016.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> <003201c51b01$0332b820$2101a8c0@finans> <20050226130242.H31529@shell.lmi.net> <002e01c51ca0$96d47be0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <1109614938.30610.32.camel@fortran> On Sun, 2005-02-27 at 08:47 +0100, Nico de Jong wrote: > From: "Fred Cisin" > Subject: Re: origins of IBM 3740 diskette format > > > > Yes, but,... > > > > In FORTRAN, columns 73 - 80 are reserved for housekeeping, such as > > resequencing dropped decks. > > THerefore, the information content in FORTRAN could be said to be 72 bytes > > per card, NOT 80. > > > > That was the same for IBM (DOS) Assembler, Cobol (73-80) and RPG-II (column > 1-5 IIRC). > > Nico > JCL too. It had something to do with how the 701(!) read in data, into two 36-bit words... I think most S/360 languages did it this way. Some big guy in S/360 development mentioned this in the System/360 talk at CHM - video is (was?) availible at computerhistory.org. He said it during a slide with the heading "JCL - worst language ever" :) -- Tore S Bekkedal From vcf at siconic.com Mon Feb 28 16:13:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:13:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050228192512.02a739d8@slave> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Adrian Vickers wrote: > forgotten. I do recall a rather good helicopter game though (one rescued > soldiers or somesuch from burning buildings. Also a flight simulator game, > which ate many a child-hood hour. Choplifter. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 28 16:17:45 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:17:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <1109624413.8717.47.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <42235373.3090804@atarimuseum.com> <200502281805.NAA28253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109619258.8698.41.camel@weka.localdomain> <1109624413.8717.47.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050228141141.M72505@shell.lmi.net> ANY light sources other than the display will be deleterious to the image of the display. You should use a relatively small aperture, to give lots of depth of focus, since a convex display is opposite the concave field of focus. You should use an exposure that is long enough to include multiple frames, otherwise, lack of synchronization will give you bands. OR, you could tap into the video circuitry an use the VBI plus a short delay to synchronize. Does anybody have a good collection of Rainbow magazine? There was a mediocre article in it (all the really GOOD stuff about flat field lenses, etc. got edited out) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Feb 28 16:26:05 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 05 22:26:05 GMT Subject: Age Message-ID: <0502282226.AA08820@ivan.Harhan.ORG> woodelf wrote: > C was nice until it got standardised. Then use pre-standardisation C (K&R C) like I do! MS From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Feb 28 16:34:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:34:58 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <32892.64.169.63.74.1109614965.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <001401c51be6$d6e30f40$2101a8c0@finans> <1109591072.30610.27.camel@fortran> <32892.64.169.63.74.1109614965.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <20050228173458.43d7f80f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:22:45 -0800 (PST) "Eric Smith" wrote: > Tore wrote: > > Hell, I'd be a building super if they let me use a 360/91 as the > > furnace :) > > Is there a 360/91 still in existence? > > There seem to be few 360s of any model still around. The Computer > History Museum in Mountain View CA USA has a 360/30. I hope we can > restore it someday. > > Eric > I have an IBM 360 promotional ash tray that my father gave me. Apparently it's design matches the decor and what-not of a System 360 machine. How many years do people think it has been since IBM last gave away a 'promotional ash tray' for one of their computer systems? From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 16:35:16 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:35:16 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <1109624413.8717.47.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <42235373.3090804@atarimuseum.com> <200502281805.NAA28253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109619258.8698.41.camel@weka.localdomain> <1109624413.8717.47.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:00:13 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 15:26 -0500, 9000 VAX wrote: > > > Under Linux, I don't think there's any way I can pull metadata off the > > > camera along with images - so if I take lots of shots under a trial and > > > error approach, I have to note down what settings I was using for which > > > shot which is getting to be a pain in the butt! > > > > I am using Nikon 995 and I download the images to linux directly (via > > USB). The model supports the kind of flash storage protocal, and I can > > mount it directly as a local directory. I heard that many new cameras > > could be mounted too. > > Good point. I don't think Gphoto (at least the version I have) works > with my camera (a Canon G5) in PTP mode - which is what I believe would > be needed for it to copy all the extra metadata stuff as well as > images... but you're probably right, and it probably appears under the > filesystem somewhere which might do the job. I have to do this manually, with root privilege, "/sbin/modprobe usb-storage; mount -t vfat /dev/sda1 /mnt/camera;" It works on RH and fedora. cheers, vax, 9000 > > I've just been playing around and had a lot of luck with trying the > suggestion of taking two seperate images then combining them in software > - the monitor taken on automatic and the screen done on manual (0.4 > secs / f8.0, along with re-evaluating the white balance). Problem > solved, I think :) > > cheers to all > > Jules > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 28 16:58:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:58:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 28, 5 05:03:05 pm Message-ID: > > > Recent discussion about photographing machines prompted this one. > > Has anyone got any useful tips for photographing (with a digital camera) > running machines such that whatever's on the screen is captured with > some kind of decent quality? I can't comment on digital cameras, I've never used one. But I guess the problems of using a film camera are much the same. There are basically 2 problems. Reflections in the screen and the fact that the image is scanned, it's not all there at once. The best way to eliminate reflections is to put the camera at an angle (and off to one side) and correct the perspctive with a swinging back. Problem is that no digital camera that I've seen has a swinging back (actually, few modern film cameras do either, but...) You might be able to correct the perspective by manipulating the digital image o na computer. I've never tried this. The second problem is easier to get round. You need a relatively long exposure time -- I normally say at least twice the refresh time of the display. 1/8 of a second should be fine. Set the aperture to give the right exposer, use a neutral density filter if your lens won't stop down far enough. With a digital camera you should be able to do some test exposures and fiddle the aperture setting until it comes out right. If you want to get both the machine and the image in the same picture, I would suggest taking 2 exposures. One of the screen image (in a darkened room), the other of the machine (turned off?) under normal lighting. Maybe you can combine the resulting digital images on a computer (I'd do it by multiple exposure on the same film, but...) Obviously you should put the camera on a solid tripod, and don't use flash at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 28 16:51:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:51:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <200502280900.JAA23482@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Feb 28, 5 09:00:54 am Message-ID: > The only formal computer tutoring I've had is when the firm sent me on > a Filetab programming course. My only electronics qualification is a > Radio Amateur Exam certificate - for what that's worth! Oh, if the RAE counts, I've got that too. I assume you know you no longer need to pass the morse test to transmit on HF in the UK :-). If you passed the old-style RAE you've now got a 'full license'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 28 17:06:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:06:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: lk201 question In-Reply-To: <16931.22236.576000.346014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Feb 28, 5 12:37:32 pm Message-ID: > Then again, if it's a stuck key or something like that, the keyboard > is beyond repair. LK201 keyboards are cheesy low quality membrane > switches that cannot be disassembled or cleaned or repaired. If > moisture ever gets in them, your only option is to scrap the board. I > found this out the hard way. They can be dismantled... Getting them back together is the difficult bit :-) What I would do is take off the casing (2 hex-head bolts under the feet, unlatch the plastic clip in the bottom section and slide the keyboard assembly out), then separate the PCB from the keyboard membranes. From what I remmeber there's a clip that holds a regulator to the chassis, one screwm and you then bend up the tabs on the metal clips over the membrane tails and take the whole lot apart. With said clips removed, you cna conenct the PCB to the terminal with the normal modular cable. If it now gives no errors (very likely), you've got a matrix problem. You can remove the keycaps -- slightly twist them to free the locking hooks. There's even a special DEC tool for this -- I have it somewere, it came as part of a custom blank keycap kit. Now, the thing is heat-stakeed together. There are plastic housings with metal springs under them, then a rubber sheet, then the mebrane, them a metal base. Pegs on the plastic housings go through the whole lot and are moulded over on the back. It's triviel to take apart. The problem is leaving enough peg to be able to fix it all back again. I have wondered about making a hollow tubular cutter to remove the moulded-over bit from each peg, then putting said bits back on at the end and trying to melt the plastic together again. I am told this method has worked on HP handhelds with similar heat-staked assembiles -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 28 17:10:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:10:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050228135827.009b89d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Feb 28, 5 01:58:27 pm Message-ID: > > Does anyone have any information about this part? I've been told that > it's a high performance microprocessor. I found it on what looks like a hex The PERW AGW3300 (aka PERQ 3a) uses a pair of them in the graphics processor. Unlike the classic PERQs, the AGW3300 is a 68020-based unix box, with a rather interesting microcoded graphices processor built in. The 29116 is not really a microprocessor. It would be better to call it the data path section of a 16 bit processor. You need to add the microcode sequencer, etc externally. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 28 17:11:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:11:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More New Toys! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050228132451.009ac830@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Feb 28, 5 01:24:51 pm Message-ID: > > If I HAVE to i can do better than that. I have a variable frequency > variable voltage AC supply. It can generate true Sine wave AC from 9 to > 9,999 HZ and any voltage from 0 to about 270 volts. It's big and heavy as > hell but it's the cat's ass when it comes to meeting odd power requirements! I hope you're not thinking of connected that PSU to the back end of any cat.... -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Feb 28 17:46:08 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:46:08 -0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <200502282118.j1SLIPfX021647@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200502282345.j1SNjUak002833@dewey.classiccmp.org> > > (Anyone in the UK see the BBC Open University tv program on > the early > > days of computer programming the other night? > > Plenty of film and stills of early computers, including films of > > EDSAC, ENIAC etc and interviews with Maurice Wilkes and > other pioneer > > programmers.) > > Bah, I didn't know it was on! Then again, if it was the > weekend I wouldn't have seen it anyway as I spend most of the > weekends in bed to recover from the working week :o\ Replying to myself here but.... Hopefully UK types will have watched 'look around you' tonight on bbc2, the 'computers' edition. So far the series has been patchy and not as good as the first series from 2003 or whenever; tonights was excellent, featuring the 'world's cleverest computer' - a twin floppy TRS80-u-like in tasteful brown called Bournemouth, and a computer 'for women, designed by women' called the Petticoat 5 complete with emery board spacebar and keys designed for long fingernails :D I did many screengrabs but they're only at 320x240....I'll stick 'em on the website anyway, but for those in need of muchos hugeos pictures the Look Around You website has a couple of wallpapers featuring Bournemouth and Petticoat 5 so you can try and see which bits of what computers they used to build them.... www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/lookaroundyou/wallpaper cheers a From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 28 18:11:46 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:11:46 +0000 Subject: Top Posting, was Re: ASR33 $1000+ And Counting... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050227213530.03f33d90@mail> References: <421E49CE.B9F1373F@rain.org> <6.2.1.2.2.20050227213530.03f33d90@mail> Message-ID: <1109635906.8698.64.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-02-27 at 21:44 -0600, John Foust wrote: > > http://inconnu.isu.edu/~ken/sigs_page.html > Much appreciated - there's some real gems in there. I do particularly like: Actually, HTML is very useful. As a flag to say "you don't need to read this email." cheers Jules From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Feb 28 17:40:29 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:40:29 -0800 Subject: Age (Ibm Mainframe) References: Message-ID: <4223ABED.BACF8452@msm.umr.edu> William Donzelli wrote: > > What is going to be a big gaping hole in the mainframe line is that of the > machines of the 70s and 80s*. As far as I know, no one saved any machines > in the 30xx line. The last 3090s have pretty much been retired. Even > ES/9000s are not doing well, although every so often one of the rackmount > models (922x) appears on Ebay. With a couple of friends, we have 9370/10, 9370/30, and 9370/60's which work. Had several opportunities to get 922x's but not as interesting, since the 93xx's run "free" software and the 922x's don't unless in 370 mode. and hercules pretty much made any pc equivalent to all of the above, at least software wise. Jim From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Feb 28 18:39:01 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:39:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8 (was Age) In-Reply-To: <00c101c51dab$aa87d950$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20050301003901.9369.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jay West wrote: > So ya know, since you never mentioned getting it OUT > of storage and shipping > it to CA.... I can head up there with a van & all... > ;) > > Jay Nice try, Jay. ;) ;) Last spring, on a visit to my father in Florida, I removed the machine from storage and shipped it to California. Unfortunately, ir remains in the same partially-disassembled state in which I shipped it to Florida originally for storage, and the original rack was given away in Pitssburgh years ago when I left. If anyone knows where to get an old-style DEC rack, which was apparently an off-the-shelf BUD model, I'd be interested. (I know that a recent-vintage rack would work fine, but I'd like to restore the authentic original appearance.) --Bill From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Feb 28 18:48:19 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:48:19 -0500 Subject: classic X86 hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050228194819.64cca336.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:00:56 -0500 9000 VAX wrote: > Before you guys start to laugh at me, I would like to itemize some. > 1. The original IBM PC 5150/5160 MB > 2. The HP 100LX, 200LX palm PC > 3. The original Nexgen pentium class PC > 4. The IBM "butterfly" 486 laptop > 5. You name it > Some more that I would add: The IBM PC Convertable. (a truly bad laptop from the user's POV- probably as 'bad' a design as the Mac Portable) The Compaq Deskpro 386 (first generation 386 PC- Compaq's 'shot across the bow' at IBM, sorta) First PC-clone with 'real' power. Vintage PC-DOS. (I have DOS 1.0, the 1.0 Basic Compiler, the 1.0 Pascal Compiler) Useful for sub-64K DOS. The IBM PC-1 (the first generation PC, the one whose motherboard has four rows of 16K DRAM chips, and the cassette interface) The PC-1 is unique in having a power supply painted black, and the IO-slot cover brackets painted black. exceedingly rare. The PC-2 is much more common, chromed power supply and brackets, 256K (64K soldered in) on motherboard. The PC Junior (benchmarks 'Norton SI' at 0.7- no DMA controller, so glacially slow.) The Columbia PC (first DOS 'workalike'- not fully PC Compatible, with ISA slots. Any of the machines that ran MS-DOS 1.x on 8" floppies. Any of the early 'MS-DOS' clones, i.e. the Panasonic PC, that aren't fully PC-compatible and thus require their own special MS-DOS version. Tandy 1000's 'just barely' qualify here, because they were so common. And: the HP 95LX is 'cooler' than the 100LX and 200LX, though less useful, in that it doesn't have a graphics mode, so is a primative text-only palmtop. And because of that it's really cheap these days, < $20 on eBay if you look hard. The HP Omnibook 300- DOS and Windows 3 in a PCMCIA ROM- execute-in-memory so that it runs DOS, Windows, Word, Excel directly out of the ROM without loading it into RAM. A major technical accomplishment that was a dead-end development effort. CP/M-86. ------ A lot of the above are cool more as 'weird relics' than as anything technically neat. > cheers, > vax, 9000 From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Feb 28 18:49:15 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:49:15 -0500 Subject: OSI Software Find! Message-ID: Well, since my C4P-MF has been rock solid stable since I fitted the new power supply and cleaned the drive head, I've been going through a bunch of 25 (and more) year old diskettes to see just what I have. Lo-and-behold! On a diskette simply labeled OS65D 3.2 (not originally mine, acquired I don't know where), I found really nice machine code implementations of Space Invaders and Asteriods! You don't usually see machine code programs on OSI diskettes, the OS was too crude to have a simple binary loader. Diskettes usually have BASIC programs, with maybe a couple of USR$ sub-routines in data statements. To load and execute the programs, you have to EXIT from BASIC into the sub-monitor and then load the diskette tracks into memory one at a time. Once you have it loaded, then you GO to the starting address. I think that these programs might have been originally intended to be loaded from casette tape. Fortunately, the diskette had two BASIC programs, each of which PRINTs the instructions for loading the machine code programs. I'm really happy about this! People usually see OSI boxes running rather slow interpreted BASIC programs. These two programs show just what an OSI box can do. There is no attribution for the Asteriods program, but the Space Invaders is copyright 1980 by Michael Kincaid. Can't wait to show these at TCF! Bill From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Feb 28 19:16:10 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:16:10 -0500 Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? References: <3.0.6.32.20050228135827.009b89d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <002401c51dfc$42544430$0100a8c0@screamer> Its a 16-bit wide bit slice, not quite a stand-alone CPU. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 1:58 PM Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? > Does anyone have any information about this part? I've been told that > it's a high performance microprocessor. I found it on what looks like a > hex > size DEC card made by Spectra Logic Corp. I found a picture of one on the > net but it's not very good. > 16DC.jpg> > > Joe > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 28 19:17:03 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:17:03 -0500 Subject: #3 MORE Free SUN stuff! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050228201703.00924a40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> More S-bus cards for SUN systems. QLogic 3701703 Single Ended Wide SCSI controller. SUN 5011902 Differential SCSI/Ethernet controller. 3 ea. Cisco Ethernet s-bus card. Marked "CDDI/MLT-3". Status and Ringop Indicator lights. Model WA-C303TA. SUN 370-3328 FDDI Interface. See joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 28 19:23:29 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:23:29 -0500 Subject: Matrox card? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050228202329.009be730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have an old Matrox video card that I can't find out much about. It's actually two cards sandwiched together. It looks vaguely like a VME card but has connectors on the side and not on the edge of the card. The connectors look like S-bus connectors like those used in Sun computers. There is one connector in the middle along one edge and a second identical connector offset to one side. The video connector in on the metal mounting plate on the opposite of the card from the S-bus connectors. It's a 13W3 type connector like those used on many SUN, HP and SGI computers. The card is marked Matrox Electronics Systems SG3-1152B/BASE 0385-06-02 Made in Canada Copyright 1990". The only reference that I could find on the net says "I found an old triple-width, > dual-sbus slot graphics card made by Matrox and labelled an SG3. > When booting NetBSD/sparc is identifies it as a cgtwelve." Anybody know any more about it? Joe From rogersda at cox.net Mon Feb 28 19:56:58 2005 From: rogersda at cox.net (Dale Rogers) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:56:58 -0500 Subject: lk201 question Message-ID: <20050301015658.FSWP2123.fed1rmmtao10.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> The LK201-BA is a standard LK201-AA with keycaps to use with the DEC WPS operating system. If it's working correctly, it works fine as a standard keyboard. The "Orange" PF1 key was GOLD when it left the factory. Hence the various WPS versions were known as "GOLD KEY" word processing. Most commonly, those keyboards were sold with the DECmate II & III (PDP-8 based) personal computers. Dale > > From: Paul Koning > Date: 2005/02/28 Mon PM 12:37:32 EST > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > CC: (Unparsable address -- End of addresses in middle of :...; > group: "General Discussion:On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts_^_") > Subject: Re: lk201 question > > >>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Handy writes: > > Kevin> Mike wrote: > >> I just picked up a lk201 keyboard today that wouldn't work with a > >> vt320 > >> > >> Unlike my other lk201's this one has blue strip across the top, an > >> orange pf1 key, f20 is labeled Hyph Push > >> > >> PN: LK201BA > >> > >> One site selling them says it is a word processing keyboard. > >> > >> > Kevin> There were several word processing keyboards, depending on > Kevin> which software you were using. DecWord, WordPerfect, > Kevin> All-In-One, etc. > > I doubt that DEC ever made keyboards for WordPerfect. And I haven't > heard of All-In-One keyboards either. The keyboard Mike mentioned is > a DECword keyboard. > > Kevin> Check the keyboard-terminal cable. Check for stuck keys. > > One possibility: you could make an adapter to plug it into a UART > port, then write a test program to see what's wrong with it. The > protocol is simple (4800 baud 8 bit messages) and well documented in > the Pro 300 series technical manual. > > Then again, if it's a stuck key or something like that, the keyboard > is beyond repair. LK201 keyboards are cheesy low quality membrane > switches that cannot be disassembled or cleaned or repaired. If > moisture ever gets in them, your only option is to scrap the board. I > found this out the hard way. > > paul > > From rogersda at cox.net Mon Feb 28 20:06:13 2005 From: rogersda at cox.net (Dale Rogers) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:06:13 -0500 Subject: Unsubscribe - please!! Message-ID: <20050301020612.KUJV1282.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> Dunno who put me back on this list, after a about a year; maybe the list was restored from a really old backup. But I really don't have the time nor storage space to keep up with it. Please take me back off the list. Dale From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Feb 28 20:17:05 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:17:05 -0600 Subject: 11/45 status Message-ID: <01c601c51e04$c3cf91b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I finally got an hour free to dig back into my /45 restoration. Thanks to some spare boards to help test and some very good "CE quickdocs" (thanks a million ashley!), I got a little further. However, it brings me to two questions. 1) In the absence of full docs on the MF11-L... I'm not sure about the following. It looks like the 1st slot of the MF11-L backplan gets a unibus in (A-B) from the last slot of the cpu backplane. The 2nd slot is my G110, the 3rd is my G231, and the 4th slot has my H214 (C-F) in it. But looking at some of the docs, it appears that an H214 can be in slots 1, 4, and a few others per the diagram. My system arrived with one H214 in slot 4. Should it be first... in slot 1 under the unibus in? Since I had a spare from ashley, I put one in slot 1 and one in slot 4. I know the jumpers on the other boards may not reflect 16K, but I figured it might change things. So if I have just 8K set up, should the H214 be in slot 1, 4, or does it matter? 2) My front panel has an oddity (to me). If I select say address 10000 and hit load addr the address lights respond correctly with 10000. I then hit examine and get nothing (blank data lights). Whatever... but here's the interesting part. If I keep pressing examine over and over again, the address lights count up just like they should - except they skip bit zero (the rightmost bit, either 0 or 15 whatever dec nomenclature is). I don't mean that the rightmost bit just isn't displaying correctly, the actual counting sequence acts like the rightmost bit is the 2nd light from the right. I can tell it's not just a bulb problem because I don't have to hit load addr twice to "move on", the count is smooth and sequential without the rightmost bit. Any thoughts offhand? I know my memory system is likely not jumpered right. I'm looking through those jumpers either tonight or tomorrow and verify them. Thanks for any thoughts! Jay From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon Feb 28 20:55:08 2005 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:55:08 -0500 Subject: VC8/I Point Plot Controller Message-ID: <4223D98C.204@nktelco.net> I have been playing around with a collection of old Flip Chips that I have and put together a VC8/I compatible scope controller for my PDP8/e. You can find a page about it here http://www.chd.dyndns.org/pdp8/VC8/ The only reason this was possible was because I had two 10-bit D/A converters (A618), the rest of the modules are pretty common. Thanks to David Gesswein for some test programs. -chuck From randy at randy482.com Sun Feb 27 03:38:32 2005 From: randy at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 03:38:32 -0600 Subject: Server problems References: <077201c51bb5$a93795b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <006801c51cb0$1df2a430$6392d6d1@randylaptop> Jay, I think there is a problem, at least with the list. I had problems with my email server (randy at s100-manuals.com), I changed it to cctalk at randy482.com. I just started sending back to my s100-manuals.com account. I canceled my subscription again (for randy at s100-manuals.com). I also subscribed to cctech with my randy482.com. If that fixes it I'll let you know. Randy From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sun Feb 27 03:45:51 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:45:51 +0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <001f01c51ca0$47c512d0$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200502262147.NAA18532@floodgap.com> <001f01c51ca0$47c512d0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050227092433.028d5128@slave> Born 1973, currently 31. First experience/sight of a computer was at around age 9-10 at primary school, when the class got to use a loaned BBC 'B' for a day. I was hooked there & then. I didn't see another computer until I went to secondary school. The computer lab there had: about 8 ZX Spectrums in a network (of sorts), 1 BBC 'B' (which spent most of its life playing Revs), and one Sharp MZ-80K (which I acquired a few years later). Sometime between 1982 and 1985, Dad had an Apple ][ Europlus on loan from works; he learned DBase, I learned Apple Basic - which I've long since forgotten. I do recall a rather good helicopter game though (one rescued soldiers or somesuch from burning buildings. Also a flight simulator game, which ate many a child-hood hour. In February 1984, Dad ordered a Sinclair QL, which eventually showed up in about June or July. I used that in its barebones 128k twin MDV setup for about seven years, before finally buying disk drives (Well, a 5.25" single drive), then extra memory, then a Gold Card, then twin 3.5" drives, before finally retiring it for good in about 1994. I still have that QL, & most of the accessories I ever bought/acquired. Between 1986 and 1990 - I have long forgotten the actual dates, and I almost forgot the actual machine! - I owned a ZX Spectrum - which I later swapped for a CBM Plus/4 + games. During the same period, I had a BBC 'B' on loan; with a very flakey keyboard connector which I eventually had to replace myself, using ordinary stranded ribbon cable. Euch. It never was quite the same after that. At sometime between 1990-1992, someone (I never met them) asked me to write some software on a Commodore PET 8032SK; I got to play with the complete system (it included an 8040(?) double drive unit & printer). Around this sort of time I made the fatal error of selling the Sharp MZ-80K for ?10 to a mate. Oops. The PET system eventually went back to its owner in about 1993 (I think) - software un-written. In 1994, I finished college & went to work, starting on a 486DX33. I got my own PC the same year (a DX2/66), and have used PCs to work on ever since. My classic comps collection, though, didn't really get going until 2000, when I bought another QL. And another one.... I have about 7 now. Also a BBC B, a BBC Master, a Spectrum or 4, a ZX81, a pair of Osborne 1's, a collection of PETs (including an 8032-SK), a pair of MZ-80K's, 2 -80A's and an -80B, and so on. Big iron wise, I would covet a Vax 8800 (as used at N. Staffs Polyversity), but have to make do with an HP 1000F & an A700. So there you go... I am currently slimming down my oversized collection somewhat, as it's getting to be a PITA to haul around everytime I move house (4 times in 5 years so far). Cheers, Ade. From mhstein at canada.com Sun Feb 27 16:11:58 2005 From: mhstein at canada.com (mhstein at canada.com) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:11:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age Message-ID: <20050227141158.13300.h007.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> On 26 Feb 2005, at 09:37, Nico de Jong wrote: > It could be interesting to know the age"spread" of thist list > contributors, Well, FWIW: About to hit the big 6 0 (hi Nico!) Started in '62 sorting & collating cards in an IBM unit record service bureau. Programmed my share of plugboards, claim to fame was programming a 402 to multiply (Can't be done? HA!). Moved up to running the Statistical department (What percentage prefer Colgate to Pepsodent) on an IBM 101 and was finally involved in moving operations to the first Burroughs computer installed in Canada AFAIK (a B200). Dropped out for 10 years or so to run a motorcycle shop, got back in as a contract programmer for Burroughs. In '82 took on support for a professional investment management package running on Cromemco systems; still supporting one, albeit on PC's these days (just fired one up on a Cromemco; forgot just how slow they were...) Designed, sold & supported a factory data collection system based on AIM65s and a Cromemco (later moved to PCs). Consultant on several TV series about personal computers in mid-70s; still have copies somewhere. Personal computers: one of the first PET2001s, later moved up to an 8032 (designed & sold custom accounting packages for 8032). VIC20 & 64 of course (wrote some educational C64 stuff for a local school board). A few TRS-80s, an original IBM PC, XT & numerous clones since. And Cromemcos of course. Trying to clear out basement & apartment filled with 40 years worth of accumulating junk before my executors have to deal with it... mike From mhstein at canada.com Sun Feb 27 16:16:16 2005 From: mhstein at canada.com (mhstein at canada.com) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:16:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cromemco Software - what to do with it? Message-ID: <20050227141616.3413.h013.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> Sent this a few days ago & haven't seen it appear on the list for some reason; apologies if I'm duplicating. m ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Subject: Cromemco Software - what to do with it? From: mhstein at canada.com Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:46:26 -0800 (PST) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org I've been cleaning up the hard disks in my Cromemco systems in preparation for getting rid of them (no, they're not available at this time), and I have a question: There are numerous systems out there, and Herb and Howard et al are doing a great job of archiving the documentation, but what about the software? Is anybody archiving the various versions of CDOS, Cromix & Unix, and the languages & applications? For that matter, is there any point? I don't see many people writing Cobol or Fortran programs to run on a System 3... So, any ideas what to do with it? (no obscene suggestions, please!) BTW, any news about what happened with Don Maslin's collection? mike From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Sun Feb 27 21:14:44 2005 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:14:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Tektronix plugins available Message-ID: <200502280314.WAA04878@ss10.danlan.com> Not exactly computer, but clearly classic. :) I have a Type K fast-rise calibrated preamp and a Type 53/54C dual-trace calibrated preamp. As usual, price is $0 plus shipping. Dan Lanciani ddl at danlan.*com From harald.giese at ihm.fzk.de Mon Feb 28 02:06:58 2005 From: harald.giese at ihm.fzk.de (Harald Giese) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:06:58 +0100 Subject: substitute for TI TIL306/307 Display Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050228085252.02396190@pop3.fzk.de> Dear folks, I realised there was a discussion going on ... a long time ago ... on the TIL306 and TIXL306 availability. Just wanted to let you know, that I am presently offering 6 TIXL306 on ebay-Germany. So, if you're still interested or if you know somebody else who might be looking for them, here is your chance. I have tested them using standard TTL-voltage levels and a slow clock to see wether the display characters are all ok and everything looked neet. The ebay auction runs until next Saturday. Air-Mail-shipping worldwide is EURO 8.00 ($ 10.50). If you chose the option 'registered delivery' it's a little bit more expensive: EURO 10.05 ($ 13,00) Best wishes from the snow-clad black-forest to wherever you are. Harald Dipl. Physiker Harald Giese Institut fuer Hochleistungsimpuls und Mikrowellentechnik (IHM) Forschungszentrum Karlsruhe GmbH Postfach 3640, 76021 Karlsruhe Telefon 07247 82 6235, Fax 07247 82 4874 e-mail: harald.giese at ihm.fzk.de From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Mon Feb 28 06:56:30 2005 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:56:30 -0600 Subject: Midwest Vintage Computer Info? In-Reply-To: <0ICM00LGOGN3EI@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0ICM00LGOGN3EI@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: I've seen occasional mention of a midwest vintage computer festival to be held in May at Purdue. Where can I find more info? thanks! -Bob -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon Feb 28 14:59:46 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:59:46 -0000 Subject: Test Message-ID: <002301c51dd8$6fd504e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi, I don't seem to have received any messages since Saturday - is the list down, or is it my ISP? Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From vcf at siconic.com Mon Feb 28 21:28:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:28:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <20050228141141.M72505@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > Does anybody have a good collection of Rainbow magazine? I do. > There was a mediocre article in it (all the really GOOD stuff about > flat field lenses, etc. got edited out) ...and? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 28 22:03:44 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:03:44 -0700 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <0502282226.AA08820@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0502282226.AA08820@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <4223E9A0.4070409@jetnet.ab.ca> Michael Sokolov wrote: >woodelf wrote: >Then use pre-standardisation C (K&R C) like I do! > > Sounds like you're running an 11 over there. :) Over here I am running gnu on some well hacked together Tiny C code for a cross assembler that I have for my latest cpu design that has no stack operations so I can't hack a version of Tiny C that I have. Lets face it the 11 was the only small machine that could handle a nice High Level langauge that I can think of. The intel 8088/8086 is more pascal like for language design. Ben alias woodelf From stevew at ka6s.com Mon Feb 28 22:39:09 2005 From: stevew at ka6s.com (Steve Wilson) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:39:09 -0800 Subject: Age Message-ID: <4223F1ED.4050302@ka6s.com> I'm 49. Started at age 15 by learning to program an Olivetti Programma 101 - http://www.science.uva.nl/faculteit/museum/Programma101.html for those who care. Shortly there after I started learning about "Gotran" and got to run a couple of programs on a IBM1620 at Occidental College in Pasadena. Shortly there-I started learning Watfor, and got access to the IBM370 at USC. You could walk in off the street with a deck and get 15 seconds of execution time for nothing. There were a few other high-school students doing the same thing I imagine. Anyway - I took a Fortran class trough Glendale Community College after my Senior year in high-school and learned Fortran, then Cobol on a Burroughs B2500 that Glendale Unified had. Next the Junior College got a Nova 2/10 (I think..) and I became one of the two computer operators. Learned Basic and ws the lab assistant for that. It ran a DOS by Ball if I recall correctly. It had a card reader that kept blowing up ;-) and 4 ASR-28s that people ran Basic on when it wasn't trying to run Fortran. The other computer lab assistant got an Altair (had serial number 3 of 8K Basic..) and we both drove to New Mexico for the very first personal computer convention in 75. Went on to four year college and majored in EE. Saw a Bendix G15 there (didn't use it), and PDP-11's running RSTS. Did my senior project on an LSI-11 in Fortran. Went to work for Burroughs as a computer designer on the B1000 series - Did that for 3 years. Later worked at Cydrome on the Cydra-5 (a mini-supercomputer ) around 85. Worked at National semi in the 32K architecture group also for about 9 months before went into consulting. I would love to help resurrect a B1965 or a Cydra. Steve Wilson From recycler at swbell.net Mon Feb 28 21:28:38 2005 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:28:38 -0600 Subject: largest private DEC collection in USA to be sold. Message-ID: <4223E166.3050903@swbell.net> Hello, I've been asked to post this notice. We are liquidating, as a lot, all or part, the largest DEC computer collection in private hands (that we know of). Includes several pdp8 systems, pdp11's, many VAXen, a rare Pro-380 integrated desk system, rainbows, KIMS box, decmate or vaxmate, as well as peripherals, software on paper tape, dectape, 8" and 5.25 floppys, spare boards, parts, etc., cables, loot and booty, even the sacred |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| speakers' podium from the DEC ACT in Dallas, Texas and the DEC 'bricks' which used to adorn the wall in the reception area. Also, for contrast, a pleasing assortment of other systems including a diverse collection of early (floppy only) laptops, (including several sony SMC-210's which are made of unobtanium), several IBM Mainframe test boxes, beehive terminals, floppy disk drive tester, Tektronix 4014 graphics terminal, the original analog disk drive fromt the first Ampex slo-mo instant replay system installed at Cowboys Stadium, you name it, Osborne 1, Apples, commodores, compaq luggables, IMSAI 8080 with lots of spares, SWTPC computer, maybe 10 VT100 types, TI Professional portable, everything right down to the nuts and bolts. Has been stored in a 30x40 climate controlled building which is packed. Most all of it was working when removed, and has been stored. There's more I can't think of right now, but have a look at the web page (its' incomplete too, but it is what it is): http://www.montagar.com/~patj/hcsale/index.html The collection is available for $8000 all or part FOB Dallas, Texas. We estimate 2-3 moving vans. Viewing reccommended and by appointment please. Best regards, Patrick Jankowiak From vcf at siconic.com Mon Feb 28 22:54:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:54:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Want IBM 400-series account machine Message-ID: Can I fantasize? I'm reading some literature on IBM accounting machines and finding them incredibly sexy. It would be a blast to actually program one and run calculations through it. So I'd love to someday get my hands on a 402, 407, etc. I'm also now more interested than ever in getting more unit record equipment. I've got a 557 interpreter and an 026 punch. It'd be nice to have a sorter (082) but what I'd really like is some sort of accounting machine or even a calculator (fat chance of that). So, that being said, if anyone every comes across anything like this, I'm buying :) Worst case, I'll build some punch card equipment from scratch. That would be even more fun. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Feb 28 23:30:27 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:30:27 -0600 Subject: list server problems Message-ID: <00c601c51e1f$c727a210$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> In case anyone can't tell, I'm having some pretty severe problems with the mailman software :\ All I can say is I'm working on it :\ Jay From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Mon Feb 28 23:48:05 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 06:48:05 +0100 Subject: origins of IBM 3740 diskette format References: <20050224194755.7264.h016.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net><003201c51b01$0332b820$2101a8c0@finans><20050226130242.H31529@shell.lmi.net><002e01c51ca0$96d47be0$2101a8c0@finans> <1109614938.30610.32.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <000001c51e62$3d1df950$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Tore S Bekkedal" > > > > That was the same for IBM (DOS) Assembler, Cobol (73-80) and RPG-II (column > > 1-5 IIRC). > > > > Nico > > > JCL too. It had something to do with how the 701(!) read in data, into > two 36-bit words... I think most S/360 languages did it this way. Possibly for OS/360 (which I never used), but certainly not for DOS. When I was an operator, we used to turn JCL cards around, so we could see cards like // EXEC TAPEDUMP TNIRP CEXE // Nico From tomj at wps.com Mon Feb 28 21:38:27 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:38:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data General Nova 4/X, photos Message-ID: <20050228192910.N25645@localhost> A few photos at http://wps.com/NOVA4/pitchas.html I didn't want to take the machine to pieces just for photos, but next time I have cards out I'll photo most of them. I'm going to clean the heads on the disk again soon (tonight or tomorrow) so I'll photograph that apart. I'll drag out the photoflood lamp if I didn't bang its filament to death. My digital camera seems to be losing focus, it bother me, because I absolutely love this camera. It's a FujiFilm M2700. A "pocket" camera, 2.3Mpixel, but it was quite popular with pros as a "spotting" camera. I honestly don't know what battery life is; it's weeks-to-months (only good for a couple of weeks now; still the original battery). Bought it in 1998 for nearly $700. Always took great photos, but it's deteriorating, boo hoo. Scratched up, missing screws, etc. I know SLRs are better, but I'll never carry them, they become asshole magnets, get stolen, banged up, left at home, etc. I far prefer a high-quality "pocket" style, I carry it with my literally every day and use it all the time. Or maybe it's just the low light in my lab; http://wps.com/NOVA4/images/6070-cartridge3.jpg taken outside seems OK. It bothers me. From tomj at wps.com Mon Feb 28 21:27:02 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:27:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: classic X86 hardware In-Reply-To: <1109626484.8779.4.camel@kendall.jdfogg.com> References: <1109626484.8779.4.camel@kendall.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <20050228192442.E25645@localhost> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, James Fogg wrote: > On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 15:00 -0500, 9000 VAX wrote: >> Before you guys start to laugh at me, I would like to itemize some. >> 1. The original IBM PC 5150/5160 MB >> 2. The HP 100LX, 200LX palm PC >> 3. The original Nexgen pentium class PC >> 4. The IBM "butterfly" 486 laptop >> 5. You name it The first Compaq portable; it was notable for it's "portability" but also it's high degree of IBM compatiblity (for the time). The AT&T 6300 was one of the first (I don't know what was first; possibly the Eagle) to use the Phoenix BIOS, which was a MAJOR milestone in PC history; these two things were the start of the huge ramp-up of "compatibles". From tomj at wps.com Mon Feb 28 20:00:59 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:00:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050228180014.X20811@localhost> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > If I then try to DIR the disk the head backs up a track or so but can't > seem to recalibrate to track 0. The head vibrates as if the drive is > sending the signals to the stepper to retract the head but it only manages > to move back a track or so each time I issue DIR. If I do it enough it > eventually gets back to the stop position but it still gets sector errors. Wrong step rate! Poke a new on eint othe chip, or does it use the old table of junk INT 13h used to supoprt?